UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Nov 2001

  Nov 1:

   Filer's Files #44 - 2001 - WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com [495]
   Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Mac Tonnies [18]
   UFO Sightings OZ Files 11-01-01 - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [452]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [133]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Kelly - Kelly [38]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [118]
   Flying Creatures Terrify Chilean Driver - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [61]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez - John Velez [116]
   Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock - Karl Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
   [21]
   Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [46]
   UFO Studies Take Off At MTSU - UFO UpDates - Toronto [77]

  Nov 2:

   ' ...Explorations Into The ET Question' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [67]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [130]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [26]
   Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: More MUFON Dissent - Gates - RGates8254@aol.com [32]
   Re: More MUFON Dissent - Johnstone - Lara [52]
   Re: Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure' - Jones - Sean Jones [31]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [20]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [92]
   The Visitors - UFO UpDates - Toronto [62]
   'Are Mysterious Goat-Suckers Killing Sheep?' - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [41]
   Mystery Space Blast 'Solved' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [84]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [63]
   Re: More MUFON Dissent - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [52]
   Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [37]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez - John Velez [52]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [59]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland - Sue Strickland [258]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle - Kevin Randle [78]

  Nov 3:

   Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [58]
   Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock - Karl Pflock
   Ktperehwon@aol.com [25]
   Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [175]

  Nov 4:

   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [177]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [101]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [40]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.3.01 - Paul Anderson [63]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [100]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton - James Easton [227]
   Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Ecker - Don Ecker [122]
   UFO Book Reviews - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Hyvonen - Minna Hyvnen [26]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder - Bobbie Felder [27]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [13]
   CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #18, 19 - Paul Anderson [48]
   Obituary - Ernest R. Hilgard - UFO UpDates - Toronto [83]
   A Bad Smell Around Science - UFO UpDates - Toronto [200]

  Nov 5:

   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock - Karl Pflock [9]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [51]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle - Kevin Randle [45]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [93]

  Nov 6:

   Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [58]
   Old German UFO? - Chris Aubeck [7]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [111]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [122]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [68]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [13]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [80]
   Another Auroral Light Show? - Nick Balaskas [32]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder - Bobbie Felder [56]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Gehrman - Eed Gehrman [33]
   Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There - Wendy Connors [28]

  Nov 7:

   William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - UFO UpDates - Toronto [203]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors - Wendy Connors [16]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [98]
   Re: Old German UFO? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [22]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle - Kevin Randle [139]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow - Greg Sandow [58]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors - Wendy Connors [16]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   Secrecy News -- 11/06/01 - Steven Aftergood [139]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez - John Velez [193]
   Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [37]
   'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Katharina Wilson [141]
   Re: Question for Stanton Friedman - Friedman - Stan Friedman [51]
   W. M. Cooper Killed - Bruce Maccabee [47]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 11/17/01 - The Intruders
   Foundation [68]
   William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [29]
   Re: Old German UFO? - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [25]

  Nov 8:

   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [109]
   Re: W. M. Cooper Killed - Sandow - Greg Sandow [34]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock - Karl Pflock [27]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow - Greg Sandow [106]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Hall - Richard Hall [32]
   Filer's Files #45 - 2001 - George A. Filer [485]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [60]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez - John Velez [60]
   Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Velez - John Velez [37]
   Secrecy News -- 11/07/01 - Steven Aftergood [87]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [25]
   Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [17]
   Rudy Rucker's 'Saucer Wisdom' - Mac Tonnies [21]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark - Jerome Clark [36]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [82]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [95]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Strickland - Sue Strickland [112]
   UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor - John Hayes [33]

  Nov 9:

   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [86]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [23]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor - Shevlin - Collosus" [9]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Chalker - Bill Chalker [47]
   Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   'UFO News UK' - Anthony James [36]
   Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez - John Velez [127]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle - Kevin Randle [231]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark - Jerome Clark [30]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [80]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [43]

  Nov 10:

   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Secrecy News -- 11/09/01 - Steven Aftergood [116]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [58]
   Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch - Larry Hatch [61]
   Re: Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [54]
   EM Effects On Car Headlights? - Luis R. Gonzalez [20]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [82]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [84]

  Nov 11:

   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Gates - Robert Gates [31]
   Psychics Join The Manhunt - Kenny Young [24]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [38]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - McCoy - GT McCoy [38]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark - Jerome Clark [43]

  Nov 12:

   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Felder - Bobbie Felder [28]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [62]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall - Richard Hall [55]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy - GT McCoy [69]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Easton - James Easton [20]
   New Research CD - Roy Hale [7]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch - Larry Hatch [49]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch - Larry Hatch [36]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [64]
   Re: - Tim Matthews [33]

  Nov 13:

   'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 - Tim Matthews [33]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Ledger - Don Ledger [49]
   Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There - Don Ledger [38]
   Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 - Hale - Roy Hale [14]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [46]
   Cooper Is Room Temperature - Don Ecker [22]
   More Sadness From New York :( - John [23]

  Nov 14:

   Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 - - Alfred Lehmberg [44]
   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch - Larry Hatch [23]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [94]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy - GT McCoy [37]
   Secrecy News -- 11/13/01 - Steven Aftergood [124]
   More UFO Books Reviewed - Mac Tonnies [40]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [52]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [58]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall - Richard Hall [75]
   Book Signing In Ohio - Jan M. Pheneger [41]
   BBC Needs Pictures Of UFOs - Mark Talbot [25]
   Author Brian Innes? - Terry Blanton [7]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [86]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez - John Velez [88]
   Filer's Files #46 - 2001 - George A. Filer [470]
   On The Rant Or Off - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall - Richard Hall [94]

  Nov 15:

   Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [74]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy - GT McCoy [93]
   Do You Believe? - Michael J. Woods [12]
   Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William - Stephen Bassett
   [117]
   Re: Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard - Bill Hamilton [39]

  Nov 16:

   Re: Do You Believe? - Velez - John Velez [20]
   Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez - John Velez [231]
   Re: Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Matthews - Tim Matthews [22]
   Cydonian Imperative: 11-16-01 - Another Unusual - Mac Tonnies [32]
   Eavesdropping On Attorney-Client Conversations - John W. Auchettl [75]
   2001 Leonid Meteor Shower - UFO UpDates - Toronto [108]
   Decoding E.T. - UFO UpDates - Toronto [81]
   Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [74]
   Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Bassett - Steve Bassett [252]
   Secrecy News -- 11/16/01 - Steven Aftergood [92]

  Nov 17:

   Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Johnstone - Lara [233]
   Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [188]
   Secrecy News -- 11/16/01 (Addendum) - Steven Aftergood [29]
   Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - UFO UpDates - Toronto [42]
   Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hatch - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hall - Richard Hall [51]
   Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez - John Velez [278]
   Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [133]

  Nov 18:

   Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [47]
   The Rendlesham Revelation! - Tim Matthews [97]
   Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird - Mac Tonnies [23]
   Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [79]
   The Devil You Say - Christopher Kelly [87]
   Phillip Krapf on SDI - John Velez [20]
   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews - Tim Matthews [5]

  Nov 19:

   The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes - UFO UpDates - Toronto [138]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow - Greg Sandow [207]
   Re: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower - Cameron - Cory Cameron [14]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.19.01 - Paul Anderson [48]
   Re: The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes - Karl Pflock [13]
   Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [45]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird - Christopher Kelly
   [49]

  Nov 20:

   Re: Phillip Krapf on SDI - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [46]
   More Baloney Detection - UFO UpDates - Toronto [82]
   'Abduction in My Life' - Review - Mac Tonnies [27]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [64]
   Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And NCC's - Alfred Lehmberg
   [249]
   Test - Please Ignore - UFO UpDates - Toronto [0]
   New Research CD - Roy Hale [7]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Strickland - Sue Strickland [109]
   Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters? - Center for Psychology
   and Social Change [13]
   The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse - Georgina Bruni [132]
   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [198]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [79]
   Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And - Jim Mortellaro [116]

  Nov 21:

   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [31]
   CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results - Paul Anderson [16]
   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Easton - James Easton [229]
   Re: Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters? - Wayne Sallee [31]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez - John Velez [43]
   Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And - John Velez [47]
   FT - The MOD UFO Files - Mark Pilkington [25]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [68]
   As The World Turns - Jim Mortellaro [44]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [43]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [114]
   Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey - John Velez [8]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [58]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Friedman - Stan Friedman [127]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - George A. Filer [458]

  Nov 22:

   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Spooky Physics! - Larry Hatch [78]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [58]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [125]
   Re: The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse - Boreham - Robert Boreham [39]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [58]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [47]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [170]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [101]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch - Larry Hatch [226]
   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [78]

  Nov 23:

   Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions - Tim Matthews [159]
   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews - Tim Matthews [20]
   Re: Spooky Physics! - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [80]

  Nov 24:

   Recognizing Extraterrestrial Life - UFO UpDates - Toronto [137]
   Re: - Robert Gates [186]
   Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions - Robert Gates [186]
   Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - George A. Filer [458]
   Like A Rollin' Stone - Jim Mortellaro [104]
   Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [110]
   Two New CDs - Roy Hale [16]
   Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale - 12/8/01 - Intruders Foundation
   [59]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - James Oberg [31]
   The MOD UFO Files - Mark Pilkington [26]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 331 - Edoardo Russo [81]

  Nov 25:

   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Filer - George Filer [39]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Cameron - Grant Cameron [54]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [48]
   Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey - Paul Anderson [147]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [65]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca - Rebecca [54]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [118]

  Nov 26:

   Re: Back-Engineered? - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [60]
   Avebury Lights - Roy Hale [20]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [99]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [30]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez - John Velez [74]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 332 - Edoardo Russo [124]

  Nov 27:

   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca - Rebecca [53]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.26.01 - Paul Anderson [24]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Baker - Dave Baker [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Friedman - Stan Friedman [71]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Hale - Roy Hale [45]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [108]
   Hubble Measures Atmosphere On World Around Another -
   NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [119]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Strickland - Sue Strickland [26]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Velez - John Velez [74]
   Chilean UFO And Chupacabra Round Up - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [87]
   'Angel Hair' In California - Ed Gehrman [17]
   Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey - John Velez [235]

  Nov 28:

   Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary - Grant Cameron [39]
   Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Velez - John Velez [25]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: As The World Turns - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Gates - Robert Gates [54]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Doubt About Life On Europa - UFO UpDates - Toronto [63]
   Raelians - "First to Clone Embryos"! - UFO UpDates - Toronto [77]
   Re: Avebury Lights - Hale - Roy Hale [33]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [32]
   Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [27]
   Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense - James Oberg [39]
   Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey - Bill Hamilton [34]

  Nov 29:

   Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - George A. Filer [510]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - DRudiak@aol.com [214]
   Refuting Fermi - Colm Kelleher - NIDS [78]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Clark - Jerome Clark [31]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [92]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [77]
   Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [25]
   Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense - Jan Aldrich [99]
   Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense - Christopher Kelly [126]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [69]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [22]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [136]
   Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [161]
   Re: Refuting Fermi - Friedman - Stan Friedman [114]
   UFO Sinks Fishing Boat - UFO UpDates - Toronto [46]
   New Planet Sparks Hopes For Alien Life - UFO UpDates - Toronto [66]
   UFO Crash 'Blinded My Cows' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [27]
   UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax? - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [47]
   Fermi's Paradox III - UFO UpDates - Toronto [89]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [129]
   Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Nick Balaskas [82]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [52]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger - Don Ledger [145]

  Nov 30:

   Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd [107]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [18]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [31]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [23]
   Secrecy News -- 11/30/01 - Steven Aftergood [118]
   Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [84]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [98]
   Re: Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Hall - Richard Hall [50]
   George Harrison Dies At 58 - John Velez [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [175]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [44]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [50]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                          Filer's Files #44 - 2001

From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:54:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 02:25:48 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #44 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #44 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 31, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO SIGHTINGS HAVE BEEN OBSERVED AROUND THE WORLD.
UFOs were spotted in Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York,
Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri, Iowa, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma,
Colorado, Canada, United Kingdom, Hungary, Lebanon, and
Australia.

DISCLOSURE PROJECT IN TORONTO WAS HUGE SUCCESS. Dr. Stephen
Greer's Disclosure video tapes were presented to an audience of
around 700 people at the prestigious University of Toronto
Convocation Hall. Commander Graham Bethune, Dr. Greer and myself
spoke to an appreciative audience. Several local television and
radio programs covered the event. Allan Jaggard the well-known
motorcycle-racing star was the master of ceremonies and is
responsible for production of a great conference. The city of
Toronto is a beautiful city with an excellent high-speed road
system. I'm not surprised many UFOs are seen in the area with
traffic moving at 80 + mph (140 klm). Some highways are 20 lanes
wide. Allan Jaggard, Cindy Preville, Mike and many others
helped in putting on a great presentation. The University of
Toronto staff were brilliant and I wish to thank everyone.

The Disclosure Project reveals the best UFO evidence anywhere.
All those giving information have worked for the government in
responsible positions and have in depth knowledge of the
subject. Each report reveals a piece of the UFO puzzle.
Essentially, they report we are being visited by alien life
forms that have bases on our Moon and Mars. Their UFOs are
intelligently manned and carry out reconnaissance of our planet.
They apparently forage for food, conduct mining operations, and
make contact with some of us.

Among the 300 to 400 UFO reports received in the US each month,
there are many cases that may not be alien. Some reports are
simply mistaken identity, such as secret military aircraft.
However, the Disclosure Project assures us that many UFOs are
real alien craft as the high-ranking FAA, military and
intelligence witnesses testify. Witnesses who send in reports
generally know the difference between an aircraft, balloon, or
Venus. Most reports are from multiple witnesses who watch the
UFOs for an extended period. Generally, it takes the witness at
least a half hour to type and E-mail the report, so they are
serious about what they saw. General Le May is quoted as
claiming thirty per cent of Air Force sightings were real UFOs.
Most of these reports in Filer's Files have not been
investigated, where possible they will be. After investigation
it often turns out that a planet, balloons, flares or mundane
aircraft are in the sky. The Air Force is conducting numerous
trainin! g exercises and anti terrorist operations that can be
confused with UFOs.

However, we have strong indications that the UFO aircrews like
this flight activity, because it provides excellent cover for
their operations. We have many high quality witnesses who
report the UFOs are operating at low level in close proximity to
airports. When aircraft fly over they hide in the trees or
simply disappear until the normal aircraft traffic passes over.
There are generally 300 to 400 E-mail reports received each
month. Many reports are probably mistaken identity, but does it
make much difference if there are 400, 40, or 4 real alien
craft? The fact is there are real UFOs in our skies. The real
question is why are they here and what are they doing? The new
"Disclosure Project" Book answers some of these questions and is
well worth reading. The Web cast of the May 9, 2001; Disclosure
Project News Conference at the National Press Club can be seeing
on http://www.disclosureproject.org/npcwebcast.htm

MASSACHUSETTS CIRCLE OF LIGHT

WILMINGTON -- The witness says, "I was out on my lawn viewing
the near full moon, when a bright object caught my eye at 8:15
PM, on October 3, 2001. It had a bluish hue and I thought it
was fireworks and expected to see little pieces break off, and
it would disappear. The object was four times bigger than Mars
or a very reddish star there that crosses the sky. The object
faded away quickly, traveling northwest. It appeared to be very
high in the sky when I lost sight of it. It seemed, maybe
within 10,000 feet when I first saw it. The object made no
noise. I am a veteran sky watcher and I have seen satellites
travel through the night sky, reflecting the sun. They usually,
I believe, have a yellowish hue, and are never close to being
this vivid. It did travel in a straight line away from me as a
satellite would. I live on the approach to Logan Airport.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC.

CONNECTICUT UFO DISTORTION

Joe Trainor reports that Karen and her husband were sitting in
their hot tub on October 20, 2001, on a beautiful, clear,
starry, cloudless night. Karen said, "We watched a plane go
overhead and a few minutes later at 10:30 PM I noticed a
distortion appear coming out of the west. You could tell there
was an object there because the distortion made a circular
shape. There was a ring of small lights on what I will call the
front, the portion moving towards the east." I immediately said
to my husband, "What is that?" As it passed over our heads he
noticed the distortion as it headed away. I lost it trying to
turn around. He did not see any ring of lights above the
distortion the way I did. It moved quickly almost gliding
through the sky. It was completely silent. If it hadn't been
for the distortion you would not have noticed it at all because
it seemed to be camouflaged with the night sky. I hate to use
this analogy but in the movie Predator you can tell the
creature i! s there by the distortion, but you can't see any
other type of identifying marks. That's the best way I know how
to describe it. We are still asking ourselves, what was that.
There were small lights in a row on the "top" front only. The
'Distortion' was just like the night sky. Our best guess is
that it was 500 feet high and going roughly 500 miles per hour.
It was faster than a plane and glided in total silence. Thanks
to Joe Trainor FIFO Masinaigan@aol.com

NEW YORK FLYING DISC

BROOKLYN -- Gil Rodriguez writes I was in the kitchen on
October 24 or 25, 2000, at about 9:00 p.m. when my 15 year old
daughter came running downstairs yelling and crying that she
saw something strange and large flying across the sky outside
her window. I ran upstairs, looked to the west, and saw this
well lit object moving across the sky. It looked like a huge
disk (hamburger shaped) floating slowly across the sky without
any sound. My daughter was very scared and still crying. She
didn't sleep that night and didn't sleep much for about a week.
The object had a flashing or strobe light on the top; below
that there was a row of windows with yellowish light shining
out all the way around to the left and right. Below the windows
was a row of lights of different colors around the middle that
went on and off in sequence very quickly (blue, green, yellow,
white but not exactly in this order). The bottom half was sort
of dark with no lighting. I was in complete awe of this ! huge
object that was bigger than I had ever seen in the sky. It
seemed almost as wide as two 747 aircraft. I would guess it was
at least 75 to 100 yards wide. I then remembered my loaded
cameras, but when I returned to the back yard it had gone out
of sight. This was the third sighting for my daughter and me.
She had seen a similar huge hamburger shaped craft with her
niece Latoya in late 1999. Thanks to grodriguez@windelsmarx.com

MICHIGAN SIGHTING COMPLETE WITH "LASERS."

STANTON -- Becky reports that on October 15, 2001, a lighted
object appeared to be standing still in the northeastern sky as
she drove on the country roads a mile out of town at 12:30 AM.
Becky noticed a few planes in the sky, but this was much larger
and much lower than a star. The light was not a brilliant light
but it appeared to be bright, however, it had a misty haze to
it. It just stood still; it did not blink like a plane. It was
about the size of a dime, or at least five times the size of
either a plane or star. When I had looked up again at the
object all of the sudden flashes of what looked like red laser
beam lines appeared. Red laser beams did not shoot across the
sky, but they were contained within an area surrounding this
object. The only way I can describe it is to say a circle
within a circle. The hazed light was the center of this
circular area. Several red laser lines - extended out away from
this object in all directions and abruptly came to a halt.! All
the red lines halted, and gave the appearance of a jagged
circular pattern surrounding a white hazed object. These red
lines were all straight lines, some of which crossed over each
other, creating some triangles within this area. The size of
this circular area in comparison to the object would be like
putting a dime in the center of a silver dollar. I was
frightened and turned around and immediately headed back to
town. Once in town I gathered my senses. I stopped and watched
this object for at least another five minutes before I went
home. The object slowly ascended vertically and the light
became less hazy and clearer. I watched the object for a while,
because if any more red lines were to appear I was definitely
not going to go any further. Once home I looked in the mirror
and noticed that I had a red circular patch on my throat.
Thanks to Becky and Jim Hickman thehickmanreport@prodigy.net.

WISCONSIN MOVING LIGHTS

FLORENCE, SPREAD EAGLE COUNTY -- Jenny Hoppe UFOWisconsin
reports that on October 20, 2001,Kris N was outdoors looking
east towards Gemini at 11:00 PM. Kris says, "I noticed a small
"star" rising over the trees across the lake. It kept rising
and falling below the tree line. It rose higher and moved to my
right. After a while, it was joined by another object. These
both moved closer to my location. They were both moving left to
right and would sometimes disappear. They kept getting closer,
and higher. After 20 minutes, they were quite close to my
location and a third "star like" object appeared about 1000
feet in front of me at about 40 degrees. This last object was
pulsating like a "dimmer" switch. It also grew larger and
smaller. The three objects hovered in a triangle formation. I
left the scene, as I was a little "spooked" by all this. I
didn't sleep well and have had some very "funny" dreams."
Thanks to~ Jenny Hoppe ICQ #950705 UFOWisconsin -
http://www.ufow!
isconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_1020_florence.html

MISSOURI THREE LIGHTS SHAPED LIKE A PYRAMID

KENNETT -- The witness reports, "We didn't see it close up, but
it had three lights on it on October 7, 2001. One was at the
top and two were on the bottom. The right bottom light and the
top light disappeared first, and finally the left bottom one at
1:30 AM. We were outside talking when one of my friends said,
"Ooh look, and pointed." One of my friends thought that it was
a missile and ran away, my other friend started to run. He saw
I couldn't move and came back. We both watched it for a while
and then the object disappeared. Loud music was blasting so we
didn't hear it. We were only able to discern its lights. It was
low, seemed to hover in one spot for a while, and then went
away. I believe it was something strange. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

IOWA RECTANGLE

OTTUMWA -- The witnesses reported seeing a square shaped object
on October 10, 2001, at 9:15 PM that had two blue corners to
the left as you look at it and two red lights on the two
corners on the right. There was a white or yellow light in the
center. The sky was pitch black so you only saw the lights on
the formation of the square. I slowed the car down to a stop,
but it was too far away to see details, just the shape, and the
lights. It didn't appear to be moving and we couldn't take our
eyes off of it. When my passenger rolled the window down to see
even better, it took off heading west for a split second and
was completely gone from the sky. It wasn't a helicopter; there
wasn't any noise. It was square and planes don't hover in one
spot above the trees. The witnesses contacted the local law
enforcement offices about the sighting. The case has been
forwarded to Beverly Trout, MUFON SD of IA, for investigation.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

LOUISIANA TRANSPARENT DISTORTION BLOB

Billie Brinkley reports I had a weird sighting October 21,
2001, about 11:30 PM when I went outside to smoke and look at
the expected meteor shower. Instead I saw a transparent blob
like 'Distortion'. It looked like the "Predator" did in the
movie. You could see the stars through it, but it definitely
had edges. It lasted for just a few seconds and then just
disappeared. It looked fairly close and pretty low in the sky.
I've seen these things before, but not usually so close. My son
works late hours and came in late. This morning he got up and
told me that he also saw something weird about 3:30 AM, when he
went out to smoke. He said, "It was like a big ball of light
that dimmed out and became transparent, but looked like the
"Predator"...his words. He said he watched it for several
minutes and then it disappeared. I had not told him about my
earlier sighting until this morning. There was weird stuff
going on in the skies of Louisiana last night. Thanks to Louise
A! . Lowry SHnSASSY1 and Billie bbrink@startelco.net
(discuss@yahoogroups.com. Editor's Note: A Connecticut couple
had a similar sighting on October 20, 2001.

TEXAS WINGLESS SIGHTING REPORT

ARLINGTON -- Mike Harman reports a UFO flew right over a
densely populated area of Arlington on October 25, 2001. I
stepped outside with my brother-in-law at 8:05 PM to take out
the trash after a group dinner at my mother-in-laws apartment.
We noticed this gray round wingless object moving rapidly and
steadily across the sky. The object had no standard aircraft
lighting, no strobing, or other lights visible on the object.
It moved straight across the sky on a southwest heading. My
brother-in-law was with me at the time and we both observed the
silent gray spherical object from directly above and slightly
south of our position until it went out of sight in about 20
seconds. It crossed Pioneer Parkway heading across I-20. It
looked about ten feet across, 1000 feet up and round in shape.
I seriously doubt that it was a balloon because of the high
steady speed, and the fact that there was no wind at the time.
No wings were visible on this object and it made no sound as
it! moved across the sky in 15 to 20 seconds at an estimated 80
to 100 MPH. There was only reflected light from streetlights
below. Thanks to Mike_Harman@rocketmail.com,
http://ufopi.freehomepage.com/Mike.html

OKLAHOMA ANGEL HAIR

ELK CITY -- Jim Hickman says the witness states, "It was around
3:30 PM on Saturday October 13, 2001, and I was northbound on
US Highway 6 when I saw a strange thing in the sky. There were
contrails in the sky from the local jets that fly around.
However, I noticed that "angel hair" was falling instead of
disappearing or staying in a consistent path with the jet.
About 10 minutes later I was heading southbound back toward the
object, but the object was no longer visible. I went ahead and
went down the road about 10 to 12 miles to see if I could
locate the object. At that time the object was no longer
visible. I had noticed that there were about 6 or so other jets
in the sky, but the contrails that they were making were
staying in the sky like bunch of X's. Thanks to the Hickman
Report thehickmanreport@prodigy.net

COLORADO HOVERING CRAFT

DENVER -- At about 5:15 AM, I awoke suddenly and was
immediately compelled to look outside in the southeastern sky
on October 11, 2001. The sky was clear and many stars were
evident. I first saw what appeared to be a military aircraft
flying from south to north - a white light with a red light and
a blue light on it, and was flying rather fast. Not an odd
occurrence given that there are several military bases in the
Front Range area here in Colorado. However, I knew it was not a
military craft when it stopped in midair and the red and blue
lights disappeared. The single white light, which was now a
little brighter (like a very bright star), started to bob up
and down and around in the air, almost like a flying insect or
a moth. I knew that since I was seeing this against the fixed
backdrop of the stars that this one object was indeed moving,
and it wasn't just my eyes. It became stationary, and while I
was watching for additional movements, I fell asleep. The total
tim! e I watched this event was about 15 minutes. I heard the
rumble of military jets crossing the airspace during this time
but did not see them. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

CANADA FLOATING AND FLYING LIGHTS

CRANBROOK, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- Brian Vike reports that on
October 2, 2001, about 9:30 PM, a 52-year-old journalist looked
out his bedroom window and flying above Fort Steele about ten
kilometers north was an object that grabbed his attention. "The
hovering object was glowing red, green and then slowly moved
away before vanishing. The witness says, "I regularly see
Bighorn Helicopters coming in to land at night and this was not
a chopper. I've never seen anything like it in the clear night
sky." The object was also sighted by a native elder and the
story of his sighting was reported as a UFO story in the Friday
edition of the Cranbrook Daily Townsman that week. Thanks to
Brian Vike, Geoff (Yogi) Independent UFO Field
Investigator/Researcher HBCC UFO Research Box 1091 Houston,
B.C. Canada VOJ-1ZO Phone/Fax - 1-250-845-2189 Email -
yogi@lakesweb.com

MISSION, BC -- On October 12, 2001. In the morning I opened my
blinds and there was a bright blue light in a car parked
outside my house. It was pointed at my house. I thought maybe
it was a light from something recharging in the car, but it
seemed to move in the car as the day went on eventually it went
away although no one went to the car to turn any thing off.
Last night the same blue light was in my neighbors (directly
across the street from me) bush for about twenty minutes. Then
I looked out the window and it was on the basketball hoop for
about half an hour. I am a sane person I have never seen
anything before.

ABBOTSFORD BC -- On October 27, 2001, about 7:30 PM, we were
walking the dogs in a nearby park when both of us saw something
go across the sky in a northerly heading. This made the
trajectory northwest of Mission B.C. It was white to orange in
color and had three distinct hot spots. The tail could be seen
for at least 5 to 8 seconds and then after the tail went out I
could still see the object for a second or two. I have seen a
lot of meteors but this one was definitely the brightest and
the longest duration, I have ever seen. We were facing west at
the time of entry. Perhaps the thing landed around Pemberton,
or somewhere up there. Thanks to Brian Vike (Yogi) UFO Field
Investigator, HBCC UFO Research and Thanks to Louise A. Lowry
SHnSASSY1http://www.ufoxfiles.com/WorldOfTheStrange/default.asp

UNITED KINGDOM YELLOW LIGHTS

WARWICKSHIRE -- Kevin Yates reports that on October 29, 2001,
"My wife and I had pulled off our drive in Bishops Itchington
at 6:45 PM, when we both looked up and saw a diamond formation
of four bright yellow lights in the shape of a diamond with a
red one on the top to the left. It moved very slowly emitting
no noise, we followed it for about 10 miles to Leamington Spa.
Other people along the way appeared to have seen it as well as
cars had stopped by the side of the road. In the time we
witnessed it, for 25 minutes it changed shape to two bright
yellow lights. They also changed shape from being vertical to
horizontal. When we got off the main road in Leamington Spa by
the police building, I noticed another collection of the same
diamond shaped lights coming from Leamington and heading
towards Stratford Upon Avon. It was truly a memorable day.
Thanks to Joe Trainor Masinaigan@aol.com
Kevin.Yates@btinternet.com (Kevin Yates)

LEBANON UFO SPOTTED

ZALKA -- The witness has been an artist, US Marine, Forest
Supervisor, and a spokesman for conservation exchange and
fuel-less technology efforts. He writes, "I saw a red circle
appearing suddenly in the sky on October 8, 2001. It looked
like two circles inside each other at 11:55 PM. The inner one
has nothing inside it but between it and the outer circle there
are linking lines (linking the 2 circles) appearing as the
edges of a diamond. As I saw it from the first place it looked
like a star far away yet somehow describable. It moved very
fast in a straight line direction southwest then stopped
quickly to do a semi circle then irregular movement south north
then disappeared behind a next by building. We went to the roof
and nothing happened for a couple of minutes. Then it appeared
again moving quickly, then stopping suddenly and doing circular
movements. It lasted for a couple of minutes then become dimmer
and disappeared.

HUNGARY MILITARY PILOT VIDEOS SAUCER

BUDAPEST -- Jeff Rense has received a spectacular video of a
silver disk shaped object. On September 29, 2001, the pilot
reports that a strange craft was flying to his left side and
then moved very fast past him in the clouds as can be seen in
the video. To my left I saw a bright metal aircraft that was
the shape of a perfect disk. I was careful to film the object,
not to try and chase it since it I could not match its speed.
As I was flying a reconnaissance aircraft, I got the idea to
film it and used our equipment." The pilot considers the video
he made to be his property and not the Hungarian governments as
he was flying the plane while not on duty and was transporting
it as a favor to save the government money. He has now hired an
attorney and wants the video to be released to the public. He
hopes the release of a few frames will make this happen. These
spectacular photos can be seen at
http://www.rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm. Thanks to Jeff
Rense. Editor's N! otes: This appears to be a verified disc
shaped UFO of 25 to 30 feet in diameter. These have been filmed
by numerous Air Forces of the world and have speeds greater
than most jet fighter aircraft.

AUSTRALIA UFO SIGHTING

BUNDABERG, QLD -- Steve Evans was in his backyard in the outer
suburb of Avoca on October 21, 2001, when his partner and he
observed a string of five bright orange lights traveling north
at treeline height for 5 to 10 minutes. A singular bright
orange light was observed first before other's appeared behind
it at close intervals at 9:20 PM. A line of five bright orange
lights were visible over about half the southern sky. They
moved slowly north in a uniform line until the third object
dropped in altitude, but not in speed. They passed just below
the Moon (quarter) except for the fourth object, which went
through the Moon's light. They continued moving north slowly
and became less bright before disappearing. The objects were
much brighter and larger than the closest star and traveled
without any audible sound. The night was clear and fine. The
objects displayed no characteristic similarities to any
aircraft. Each light, being the whole entity, and remained a
constant b! right orange light with no flashing observed. They
were traveling in a rising angle. The Moon and stars were
clearly seen. A vague oval shape was observed from a side view
when the fourth object passed through the light of the Moon.
Before this, all five objects appeared round in shape. After
sighting the objects, we accessed some information on the
Internet where we found information and photographs of orange
orbs and orange ball phenomenon closely matching what we had
observed. Thanks to Steve Evans srevans2@dingoblue.net.au and
Joe Trainor Masinaigan@aol.com

SMART METALS

COSMIC CONSPIRACIES has uncovered evidence that proves that the
US Military are using smart metals similar to those found at
the Roswell Crash In 1947 "Time is ripe for the insertion of
smart structures and materials into space systems." Dr. Keith
Denoger Air Force Research Laboratories "Imagine seeing a
bullet shot through a sheet of material, only to have the
material instantly "heal" behind the bullet! Remember, this is
not science fiction. Self-healing materials actually exist, and
LaRC scientists are working to unravel their secrets. What we
did at NASA-Langley was basically dissect that material to
answer the question, 'how does it do that?'" McGowan said. "By
doing so, we can actually get down to computational modeling of
these materials at the molecular level. Once we understand the
material's behavior at that level, then we can create designer
'smart' materials," Anna McGowan, program manager for the
Morphing Project at NASA's Langley Research Center. Does the
ab! ove quote sound familiar? Metal that is cut, only to 'heal'
itself? We have all become accustomed to hearing about
technological advances that were initially spearheaded by
secret military research projects.

The Atom Bomb was developed during the Second World War amid
incredibly tight security, and the first most people knew about
Stealth technology was when the bat-like fighter-bombers were
being rolled out of the hangers to attack the military
apparatus of Iraq. Many of us are expecting a new dawn of
technological wizardry to make its debut appearance during the
current �war on terrorism�. Cosmic Conspiracies would like to
share with you some remarkable information relating to current
cutting-edge technological research being conducted on behalf
of the U.S. military that we believe could be connected to the
materials found from the Roswell crash. We are stunned by it,
not least because of how freely available much of the data is
on the Internet. Finding this freely available material,
however, is extremely difficult unless you are aware of the
specific keywords being utilized, or, as in our case, you have
a researcher of the caliber of Martin Cosnette. This is not
common kn! owledge, despite the amazing jump in technology
implied by the rapid advances being made right now. Thanks to
Cosmic Conspiracies at
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/morphingmetals.html

SAINT LOUIS MUFON CONFERENCE -- MUFON Conference at J.C. Penny
Auditorium, University of Missouri, St.Louis Campus, 9am-9pm.,
Nov.3rd.,2001, FLYING SAUCERS - HIDDEN HISTORY - 2001 (D-Day of
Disclosure) 1) Press Conference 2) Richard Dolan - UFO's and
the National Security State 3) Harold E. Burt - Flying Saucers
101 4) Dr.Carol Rosin - The Future of Space And
Extraterrestrial Intelligence 5) Stanton T. Friedman - Putting
The Pieces Back Together Again 6) Special Speakers Panel $10.00
per each of six sessions or $50.00 before November for all.
1-800-489-4UFO, MUFON/MISSOURI,
P.O.Box#643,St.Charles,Mo.63302, < bwidaman@earthlink.net >,or
636-946-1394, The Airport Marriot Hotel $65.00 Thanks to: Bruce
Widamen State Director Missouri

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO photographs
available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy
Commander Graham Bethune. $10.00. Send check or money order to
G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055. CD OF
FILER'S FILES for the last four years 1997 through 2000 is
available for $25.00. Both for $30.00.

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                         Ambiguous Roswell Document?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:30:54 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:11:30 -0500
Subject: Ambiguous Roswell Document?


List,

I'm reading Jim Marrs' 'Alien Agenda'. In the obligatory
chapter about Roswell, he cites a memo (supposedly drafted by
Gen. Schulgen, if I remember correctly) that goes to great
lengths to emphasize that the AF wished a saucer would crash,
etc.

Schulgen (?) goes on to report characteristics expected from
UFOs, including construction materials such as foils, plastics,
and balsa wood (!).

Is this memo for real or a doctored version of a real one? Or
has Marrs simply taken quotes out of context? If the memo's
author actually wrote the bit about foils, plastics and balsa,
then it's pretty obvious he had inside knowledge of whatever
happened at Roswell.

What gives?


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                       UFO Sightings OZ Files 11-01-01

From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:45:42 +1100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:32:27 -0500
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files 11-01-01



UFO Sighting Kennilworth Qld

Follow up Emma AUFORN QLD
1800 Callin Code: 01768 28/09/01 QLD

Date: 28/09/01
Day: Friday
Time Reported: 6.35 pm
Location: Kennilworth Qld
Reported by: Anna
Nearest State Director: Emma Derdak

Report

Anna reports seeing a number of sightings over the ridge at
Wallow Road, Kennilworth.

The latest was observed to be shaped like an eagle with flapping
wings.

She stated that it was flying too fast to be an eagle and that
she was sure the object was a metallic pewter colour with
armoured feather/plates. The object came out from a cloud and
was travelling west.

2 years ago she observed a "bobbing thing" travelling over the
top of the same ridge. The object was a semi circle and emitted
an orange light.

Anna reported also finding an 8 foot circle at the time, on the
ground, that had a strong smell but deteriorated after two days.

She also stated that local farmers had found their cows to be
covered in excrement in the morning and that the dogs kept
sniffing it. She that the cows were used to dingoes etc. and
thought that something had terrified them and was thinking along
the lines of a big cat. She was quite open to having anyone
pay her a visit, etc.

Emma AUFORN Qld

~~~~~~~~~~

UFO Sighting Central Coast (The Entrance)

Subject: Fw: UFO Report
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:31:40 +1000
Reported by: Sean
Location: Central Coast (The Entrance)
Report:

Sean couldn't sleep in the early hours of Friday morning and
decided to go outside for a smoke. It was approximately 3.40
a.m. when a very bright light, moving "quite fast", caught his
eye. The object described as a "shooting-star going upwards"
came from the south east and seemed to travel past the moon
where it faded from sight.

It was a clear night, little wind and the object made no sound.
The incident lasted about 1 to 2 seconds and fascinated Sean so
much he immediately scanned the InterNet for UFO related sites,
to report his sighting.

Regards Veronica INFODIG NSW

~~~~~~~~~~

UFO Sighting Penrith NSW

Follow up Karen Burden AUFORN
NSW 1800 Callin Code: 01736 14/09/01

Date: 14/09/01
  Day: Friday
Time Reported: 7.32 pm (1932 Brisbane Time)
Location: Penrith, NSW
Reported by: Graham
Nearest State Director: Doug Moffett


Graham had a three UFO incidents to mention, they are as
follows:


Recent Report:

On the 14th September between 6:30 pm and 7:00 pm Graham and his
wife and two children were outside having a cuppa after dinner
when his youngest son said, "Look Dadda there's a plane."

Both parents looked and noticed that there were 4 orange lights,
each one about the size of a one cent piece at arms length. They
were traveling South to North horizontally one behind the other,
at what appeared to be around 100 feet apart from each other,
evenly spaced. They were not flickering or pulsating, no smoke
trails could be seen, but they were traveling very slowly.

Graham estimated they were around 2,000 feet off the ground. He
came to the height estimate as he had lived near the Richmond
Air Force base for 10 years previously and therefore had quite a
bit of exposure to aircraft. He stated at no time was there any
indications of erratic flying tactics.

A few minutes later another two appeared traveling horizontally
side by side at around 100 feet apart once again. A few minutes
later, again, another two appeared one behind the other.

Graham stated they all ascended on a 30 degree climb when they
reached the same area in the sky. He watched them climb for 10
minutes until they were nothing more than pin points in the sky.

It was a very clear night he said, there was no cloud cover, not
even periodic. No noise was apparent.


Incident 1970 - 71:

Graham wanted to mention that he'd observed a white cigar-shaped
object around 30 years ago, which was only around 1200 feet off
the ground over Pennant Hills Area.

He stated it happened within an hour of the first Concord Plane
landing in Sydney way back then. The family were outside hoping
to catch a glimps of the plane, but observed something else
instead.

He stated it was clearly not a blimp and did not have the same
shape at all. He said the UFO seemed almost transparent and just
hovered there.

Note: If anyone knows when the first Concord landed in Sydney,
Australia, that will provide the timeline within an hour.

Disc Shaped Object:

He also mentioned a disc-shaped object he and his father
observed at Narabri when he was young, his father was out
hunting or something. He stated the disc was a yellowish hazy
white, his father was so scared he took his son home.


Regards Karen Burden AUFORN NSW

~~~~~~~~~~

UFO Sighting Raymond Terrace NSW

Follow up INFODIG 1800 callin code: 01794 15/10/01 NSW

Date: 15/10/01
Day: Monday
Time Reported: 10.18pm (22.18AEST)
Location: Raymond Terrace NSW
Reported by: Two people

Nearest Rep: Veronica INFODIG NSW

Report:

Ita and her daughter Sue E live on the north side of the
Williams Town RAAF Base.

At approximately 8.30pm on Monday 15 October on a clear night
Ita decided to retrieve some washing from the line when she
noticed an object to the south of the base.

The object was stationary, larger than a star, reddish in colour
and "long" in shape.

She watched it for 10 to 15 minutes and then decided to call her
daugther, Sue E. Together they continued to watch the object
that periodically moved up and down and sideways.

After about 15 minutes Sue E became frightened and they both
decided to go inside. Ita said the object was still in the same
position when they went to bed.

The witnesses have lived near the base for quite a while and
both are used to seeing various types of aircraft. They agreed
they had never observed anything like this near the base, before.

Although, after chatting to me for a while Ita confided that
several years ago she saw a huge cylinder-shaped object glide
over, leaving a trail behind it.

Her other daughter was terrified one night when, on the way
home from Nelsons Bay, she was buzzed by a disc-shaped object.

An interesting report and another family touched by the UFO
phenomena.

Regards Veronica INFODIG NSW

~~~~~~~~~~

UFO Sighting Bathurst NSW

Follow up Doug Moffet NSW 1800 callin code 01806
Date: 20/10/01
Day Saturday
Time: 7.50pm
Location: Evans Plains 6km's South of Bathurst
Reported by: Snr. Constable G and John C

Report:

I responded to Snr. Constable G's call and was informed a John C
had reported what looked like a plane burning up in the sky.
Snr. Constable G gave me the number to contact John C.

John and his wife were travelling from Blayney to Bathurst at
approx 7:50pm when they noticed a bright white/silver light
travelling from East to West accross the horizon.

The object then exploded, giving off debris of yellow and later
red in colour. The object appeared very low in the atmosphere
and at first did not appear to have a trace but later
observation showed a trace or tail.

Duration of the event approx 5 seconds. Appears to have been a
Ferric-based [iron] meteor with perhaps traces of magnesium,
given the very white glow and the low altitude in the atmosphere
it achieved.

Ferric based meteors tend to last longer in the atmosphere and
thus get lower than carbonacious meteors and are probably more
likely to have trace elements such as magnesium, than
carbonacious meteors. To add brilliance to the sighting, the
Moon was a small crescent and the skies in that part of the
world are inky black, a great place for a sky watch!

Doug Moffett

AUFORN NSW State Director/ UFOR NSW Sightings Officer

Thank you to everyone for these reports

-----


The Gundiah Report
_________________________________

The Australian UFO Research Network
P.O Box 738
Beaudesert 4285
Phone/Fax 07 55446888
E-mail.... AUFORN@hypermax.net.au
Free Call 1800 77 22 88


The Gundiah Mackay Abduction Milieu

A preliminary report by Bill Chalker and Diane Harrison AUFORN
Director


An extraordinary and controversial milieu has developed around
events that reportedly began late on the evening of Thursday,
October 4th, 2001, at a Gundiah property near Tiaro, culminating
in the early hours of Friday, October 5th, 2001, and then played
out in the glare of rapidly escalating media coverage.

Three people were directly involved in these alleged events.
Keith Rylance (40), his wife Amy (22), and their business
partner, Petra Heller (39) were on their property, which was
being developed as "Whispering Winds" winery. Other potential
activities were also being developed at the location. The
following account comes from interviews conducted by us with
them, along with primary source material such as TV interviews.

Keith Rylance told us that he had gone to sleep in the caravan
bedroom at about 9.30 pm. Petra retired to her bedroom in the
caravan annex. Amy stayed on a couch watching TV in the caravan
annex "lounge room". Each of these locations were in close
proximity, separated by a window and wall respectively from the
lounge room. Petra's room had a door leading to the lounge room,
which was left ajar. The door to the bedroom, where Keith was,
apparently was open to the lounge room. Amy apparently fell
asleep on the couch. A storm was in the area.

Around 11.15 pm, Petra was reportedly woken up and when she
entered the adjacent lounge was confronted by an extraordinary
sight, that allegedly quickly overwhelmed her. A rectangular
beam of light was being projected through the open window of the
caravan lounge room. This light beam appeared to be truncated at
the end. Inside the beam Petra claims to have seen Amy in a
sleep prone position, being carried out head first through the
window. Underneath her, also within the beam were the items that
had been on the coffee table adjacent to the couch Amy had been
on. Before apparently fainting in shock Petra saw that the beam
was coming from a disc shaped UFO hovering just above the ground
a short distance away, near a tree at the rear of the clear
section, immediately behind the annex caravan house.

Petra reports she believes she was only in a faint for a very
short period of time. Regaining consciousness, she began
screaming. Keith reports that he was awoken by the commotion
coming from Petra. As he came from the caravan bedroom and
stepped down into the lounge room annex Keith claims he was
confronted by the sight of a highly agitated Petra and the
contents of the coffee table on the floor in front of the
window. He told us that he soon realised that the window screen
was torn in both a vertical fashion and along the bottom of the
window frame. Keith indicated that initially he couldn't get any
sense out of Petra who was crying and very agitated, so he
rushed outside trying to locate Amy. She was reportedly nowhere
to be found. Keith states when he started to be less agitated
himself he was eventually able to get from Petra an idea of what
happened. Keith claims he initially refused to believe what
Petra was telling him. He said he rushed outside again trying to
find his wife. Eventually as the situation became clearer, Keith
indicates he decided to call the police.

Keith call the Tiaro police around 11.40 pm reporting that his
wife had been abducted and imploring that the police should come
out. The manning status at that time meant there were some
delays in the police coming out, but about hour and a half after
the initial call Senior Constable Robert Maragna from Tiaro and
an officer from Maryborough arrived at the site. Initially
police thought they might have been walking into a situation
involving foul play, even perhaps a murder scene, but then the
bizarre circumstances of the alleged events came into focus. The
two people, Keith and Petra, at the Gundiah property were
claiming that Amy Rylance had been abducted by a "spaceship"!
The officers were struggling to keep an open mind. They were
joined later by Sgt. John Bosnjak, the officer in charge of the
Tiaro police. He had been asleep when the police called him to
assist in the investigation. The three officers continued their
investigations at the site. They confirmed that Keith Rylance
and Petra Heller appeared to be in an agitated state and that
there was no sign of Amy Rylance. The torn screen was examined.
A flowering bush, commonly known as "yesterday, today, tomorrow"
was located immediately outside the left side of window, had
indications of possibly being affected by heat or another
mechanism along its right side. Oddly another flowering bush, a
hibiscus, located immediately on the right hand side of the
window area was not affected in the same way. The police took
samples for possible later testing.

While the police were at the property, a phone call came
through, which was taken by Keith Rylance. A woman was calling
from Mackay indicating that she had taken a somewhat distressed
and apparently dehydrated young woman from a BP petrol service
station on the northern outskirts of central Queensland city of
Mackay, some 790 kilometres to the north of the Gundiah - Tiaro
area. The young woman turned out to be Amy Rylance, and the
female caller was ringing to advise that Amy was apparently all
right and was at the Mackay hospital, where she had been
examined by a doctor. Keith handed the phone to Snr. Constable
Marangna.

Given these extraordinary circumstances Mackay police were
called in, making a total of three police stations involved in
the investigation - Tiaro, on outskirts of central Queensland,
Maryborough on the coast and Mackay, some 790 kilometres to the
north of the Gundiah - Tiaro area.

A statement was notarised by the Mackay police with a Justice
Act acknowledgement, that required Amy to acknowledge that she
had stated was true to the best of her knowledge and belief, and
that if it is admitted as evidence, that she may be liable to
prosecution if she had indicated anything in it that she knew
was false.

This statement indicated that she last only recollected lying on
the couch at the Gundiah property. She had no recollection of
the events that Petra described, but claimed she then next
remembered waking up lying on a bench in a strange rectangular
room. Illumination came from the walls and the ceiling. She was
alone. She indicated she called out and heard what seemed to be
a male voice, asking her to be calm and that everything would be
alright and that she would not be harmed. Soon an opening
appeared in the wall and "a guy" about 6 feet tall walked into
the room. The man appeared to be slender in build but in perfect
proportion, covered head to foot in a full body suit. He had
what seemed to be a black covering mask on his face, with a hole
for his eyes, nose and mouth. He repeated his calming
assurances. Amy felt she had been there a while. The guy told
her they were returning her to a place not far from where they
took her from, because the lights were wrong at the property and
it wasn't safe. She then indicates she found herself lying on
the bed and falling asleep. The next thing she recollects is
that she woke up on the ground with trees around her. She felt
disorientated, could smell the ocean, and indicated she was not
sure how long she tumbled through bushland, but seemingly it was
for a long time, but she felt she wasn't making much progress.
She then came out onto a road that looked like a highway and saw
a light from a petrol station. She walked into the station,
where staff seeing her state, tried to offer some assistance.
She accepted some water, as she felt somewhat dehydrated.
Initially she was not able to answer identifying questions, and
didn't know where she was. She was also asked if she had been
drinking or was on drugs, to which she said no. Amy indicated
she felt tired, sore, drained and lethargic. She asked a woman
at the service station to take her to the hospital, as she
didn't know of where else to go. The woman and her friend took
Amy to the hospital. Later Amy spoke with two police officers
and also spoke with her husband Keith from the hospital. She
then went to Mackay police station where she gave the statement
of events. Amy also indicated that this sort of thing had never
happened to her before, but when she was in 5th year school she
had seen a large UFO surrounded by smaller objects.

The police arranged to put Amy in a motel pending the arrival of
her husband. He and Petra arrived during the day and indicated
they spent considerable time with Amy discussing what happen.
Extensive notes were apparently made and photographs were taken
of a triangular arrangement of marks on her inner right thigh,
marks on each heel and the growing out of her hair which she had
dyed earlier in the week. Her hair had apparently started to
show her former colour, suggestive that some considerable time
had passed for her, apparently indicative of rather more than a
few hours. Body hair had allegedly also become somewhat more
pronounced that would otherwise would be apparent for the short
time involved.

Via a Newsagent's a copy of the Australian Ufologist magazine
was purchased, Keith, Petra and Amy started to learn more about
UFOs. Keith Rylance contacted the Australian UFO Research
Network office number mentioned in the magazine. Diane Harrison
took the call Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:20 p.m. and for the next
hour or so listened to the story that Keith and Amy told. Petra
was apparently sleeping at the time.

Given the nature of the story, its complexity and the fact it
apparently featured the alleged use of "solid light", Diane
decide to bring Bill Chalker into the investigation, making
contact with him during the evening of Friday, October 5th.
Paradoxically Bill was scheduled to talk at a Brisbane UFO
conference on October 13th, and his topics included "solid
light" cases and the application of science to alien abduction
cases. Bill put a call through to them at the motel, securing
permission to record the conversation. Once again Petra was not
available to talk about her part in the alleged events. Keith
Rylance went into considerable detail about the events,
referring often to the notes they had apparently been compiling
during the day. The details described covered the events Petra
had witnessed, what Keith had experienced, and what Amy told
them had happened to her during her experience. Finally Bill
spoke with Amy, focusing mainly on the events before and after
the claimed onboard experiences, because Keith had already gone
into considerable detail about the latter. Bill discussed with
Amy her general responses and her physical state and her current
state of thought on her experiences. Keith Rylance seemed to
what to control how both media and investigators would get
involved. His desire to contact the media promptly drew from
both Diane and Bill the suggestion that he should think very
carefully about the possible ramifications of doing so. Keith
seemed to feel that it was important to get the story out, as it
would come out anyway and this way he could control the way it
did. He was also trying to restrict the way the investigators
could or should look into their experience. He claimed they
didn't need to prove the experience. While he didn't directly
witness the experiences, he believed both Amy and Petra.

Given the possible nature of the event, and that irrespective of
the ultimate resolution of the affair, it seemed destined to be
a big story, Diane and Bill decided to undertake an
investigation. They had been given an indication from Keith
Rylance that the three would wait for the investigators to come
to Mackay. The claimants were in no apparent hurry to return to
Gundiah. They gave permission for Bill and Diane to visit the
property on the way. Bill arrived in the Brisbane area on
Tuesday afternoon, October 9th.

Diane and Bill then travelled to Gundiah, arriving at the
Whispering Winds winery property, just after 10 pm. Because of
the lateness of the hour, we got the witnesses permission to
stay there overnight and to conduct whatever investigation we
needed to do. Keith had arranged for a neighbour to regularly
check on the two pets left behind, namely a parrot and a kelpie
dog. He indicated to us that it would be okay to let the dog off
for a run, but warned us it was very friendly but inclined to
jump all over people.

We let the dog off at some point and observed its behaviour. At
one point it did jump up on the window where the damaged screen
was located. This gave some support to the possibility that at
least some, if not all of the damage, could have been caused by
the dog. Some of the damage on closer inspection seemed
suggestive of possible dog damage. Our inspection of the plant
damage also suggested possible prosaic causes, such as heat
stress. A plant at the front of the house had similar damage and
a healthy flowering bush of the same species that was at the
window, was examined by us at Mount Basset lawn cemetery has
similar damaged. A gardener there we spoke to indicated that the
species often had random or more extensive damage of a heat
stress nature from hot sunlight. The prosaic possibilities for
both the screen and the plant damage are only suggestive at this
point and further investigation is required.

We undertook extensive investigations at the property and the
area. Police were very helpful. Our investigation generated many
issues and questions, which we feel need resolution, in order to
assist interpretations of these events. Further extensive
investigations were undertaken in Mackay, focusing in particular
at the area where Amy Rylance returned. These included attempts
to reconstruct the circumstances of Amy's return, through onsite
research. The BP petrol service station staff were spoken with
and surveillance videotape that may contain Amy's visit there
was provided to us by the station owner. This part of our
investigation also generated many issues and questions that need
resolution if we are to approach any measure of certainty about
the real nature of the events alleged.

Keith Rylance indicated to us he would be available to us when
we got to Mackay, but it was made clear to us early on the first
day of our investigations there that this wasn't probably going
to be the case. When we contacted the motel where they had been
the night before, their third motel in Mackay, we learned they
had apparently already checked out that morning. We left
messages on their phone but didn't hear from Keith until early
on the afternoon of our second day, as we were leaving Mackay.
In his mobile call, Keith apologised for not being available,
but was indicating they had relocated to an unspecified location
after having fled the area. The primary reason for this Keith
indicated was that they claimed they had a kind of
"men-in-black" experience. In this case, Keith was reporting a
pursuit of their vehicle by a high-powered dark brown 4-wheel
truck. The nature of this event apparently frightened Keith, Amy
and Petra, prompting Keith to attempt to loose the vehicle and
eventually leave the area.

Before the completion of this preliminary report (14th October)
we have heard from Keith again. We remain hopeful that they will
get into more direct contact with us.

This affair is both extraordinary and controversial. Many have
rushed to judgement, but given its complex and evolving
dynamics, caution and patience is necessary. We have many issues
and questions we would like to try to resolve. Further contact
with the Rylances and Petra Heller may help this process. The
case is far from closed and requires an objective, open-minded
investigation. Only time will give us the possibility of
resolution and certainty about this intriguing but controversial
affair.


Still under investigation


-----


Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:38:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:36:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0500
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For Children]
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >>or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >>experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >>between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >>being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >>rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 ><snip>

Hiya Ron,

You wrote:

 >Color me curious, but I'd be really interested in hearing the
 >stories of those who've had to go through what you went through:
 >the questioning, the doubts, the fear, the paranoia, the "Am I
 >losing my mind?", the slow unravelling of the clues, etc.

 >I have a fairly vivid imagination, and I'm seeing a
 >"psychological thriller" of sorts playing out in my head, and I
 >can't help but be very interested to hear what the actual steps
 >were that some of you had to take.

I hope you don't mind if I get 'lazy' but I'm just going to do a
cut/paste from a note I wrote to someone else privately
recently. I hope it will answer your question.

_Before_ I went to Hopkins I subjected myself to a complete
psychological evaluation. I did that for two reasons.

1. I honestly believed that I might be losing my mind because I
was 'seriously' entertaining the idea that the
experiences/events were based in physical reality. That thought
was so repugnant to me (on many levels) that I chose to question
my own sanity before accepting something so outrageous as being
fact.

Just a note:

I 'passed' with flying colors. In fact, the shrink was so
complimentary of me during my evaluation that I felt embarrassed
at times. The point is, other than some 'normal range' neurosis,
(doesn't interfere with my ability to function in the world) I
checked out just fine. In all candor there were some issues with
'anger' and which is something I've kinda had all my life, and
some unresolved anxieties, but no 'major' glitches. I'm
generally stable, in good touch with my feelings and the people
around me, and my intellectual faculties are functional and
intact.

2. I didn't 'know' Hopkins and therefore I did not 'trust' him
to give me a completely objective/unbiased evaluation. He
-earned- that trust from me over time. A period of about six
years.

Briefly, about Budd:

I don't know what your opinion of him is Ron. There is a lot of
BS out there about Budd and his character. All I can tell you
from my own fist hand experience is that he is an intelligent
and honorable person who conducts his 'business' (work with
abductees) in a completely straight, professional, and above
board manner. No 'leading', no 'contaminating' no none of the
things that he is accused of (usually) by people who have never
spent any time studying him live, in-person, and close-up.
Negative comments always seem to come from folks who really do
not know him at all. If you'll notice, the folks that tend to
'defend' Budd when such attacks occur are people that _know_ him
personally.

The bottom line is; I was very careful and thorough about how I
looked into my own 'case'. I went to the very best people I
could find. With all sincerity, I have come by my opinions and
beliefs honestly. It hasn't been easy.

That is why I react to certain "abductees" the way I do. Keeping
the noise level down in an environment like the Internet is just
mission impossible. It's like a public toilet. Anybody can walk
in and drop a stinking load. But there is a 'core' of solid
people with solid cases that cry out for further investigation.
The din created by a certain faction (mostly over the Internet)
makes it all the harder for folks to focus on these more
'tangible' cases.

Beyond all that, to fairly describe all the psychological,
emotional and intellectual ins-and-outs of the process of
'coming to grips' with the situation, it would _literally_ take
a book to do it. No BS.

 >Just curious, but have you had x-rays taken?

Only when my physician deemed it necessary Ron, and only on the
part of my body that he was trying to 'check out.' Funny you
should ask, one of the first things I volunteered to do for the
producers of the NOVA segment on abduction (when she first
invited me to participate) was, that I would be willing to take
any kind of medical exam i.e.; MRI, X-rays, blood tests etc.
(anything short of intrusive surgery actually) but they never
performed any of those tests. And for the same reason my own
doctor won't do 'em... they do not want to subject anyone to
tests that they cannot justify on medical grounds. They'd catch
all kinds of hell from their insurance outfits and medical
review boards. As much as I'd like to get 'head shots' and scans
of one or two other parts of my body, unless I break something
in the general area, it's no dice. Besides, an MRI scan of the
head alone costs $1000.00 + US funds. I'm a working stiff - I
don't have that kind of scratch to burn.

I do have an interesting story though. I had a chest picture
taken about 25 years ago that freaked the doctor out. There
appeared to be a solid looking metal tube inside one of my
coronary arteries! I've never had a 'stent' or any kind of heart
surgery. He took two more shots and the thing appeared in all of
them. I never went back to him so there was no follow-up to the
story. But 'curious' nonetheless. I have also been told by
doctors that there are 'signs' of "surgical procedures" (their
choice of words, not mine) having been performed inside my head.
(Sinuses) I've never had any of that either. My body is also
living in complete stasis (no damage being done) with Hepatitis
C. Something my gastroenterologist (who specializes in diseases
of the liver) tells me makes me "one in many million." Who
knows, could be my genes and metabolism. But, it could also
represent a genuine physical anomaly. I'll never know until
someone actually checks it out.

 >I wonder how many people who suspect they've been abducted, and
 >who may or may not have weird bumps and scars on their body,
 >have been able to get, say, x-rays of their entire body, to see
 >if there's more than just a mere scar.

See above. They won't do it as an 'elective' procedure Ron.

 >God knows I've tried (for health purposes -- for the heck of it.
 >I mean, I've been paying ungodly amounts of money to insurance,
 >so why not, right?), and doctors are very reluctant to do it.

Because you can turn around and sue their pants-off Ron.

 >I've got a couple of small cysts that I'd liked checked  out...
 >See if maybe they trigger the ol' metal detector...

 >(Just kidding.)

 >(I think...)

You won't be laughing very hard if the sucker 'beeps!'  <LOL>

Regards,

John Velez  ;)

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Kelly

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 08:53:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:40:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Kelly


 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:38:23 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0500
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For Children]
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

<snip>

 >>I wonder how many people who suspect they've been abducted, and
 >>who may or may not have weird bumps and scars on their body,
 >>have been able to get, say, x-rays of their entire body, to see
 >>if there's more than just a mere scar.

 >See above. They won't do it as an 'elective' procedure Ron.

 From the ASP angle I had no difficulty getting a CAT scan. I
told my doctor about my incredibly weird dreams that could be
more 'real' than 'real' and she referred me to a neurologist. I
wanted to find out if a tumor or epilepsy was causing the
dreams. I came away with a clean bill of health, much to my
relief.

But it seems to me that your doctors would be negligent for not
checking you out completely - because there is an off-chance
that there could be some underlying physical cause.

For instance, I know a woman who has temporal lobe epilepsy and
was having visions of the Virgin Mary, etc. Her doctors
discovered the TLE and put her on medication. Now, not every
visionary has TLE.

So, I find it astonishing that your doctors wouldn't perform
EEGs, CAT scans or MIRs to rule out a physical cause.

I don't like lumping alien abduction, TLE and ASP together - but
they all can and do offer a different version of standard
reality and it only makes good medical sense to rule out an
underlying physical cause.


Kelly











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:44:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:38:23 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0500
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For Children]
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>>If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >>>or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >>>experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >>>between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >>>being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >>>rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 >><snip>

 >Hiya Ron,

 >You wrote:

 >>Color me curious, but I'd be really interested in hearing the
 >>stories of those who've had to go through what you went through:
 >>the questioning, the doubts, the fear, the paranoia, the "Am I
 >>losing my mind?", the slow unravelling of the clues, etc.

 >>I have a fairly vivid imagination, and I'm seeing a
 >>"psychological thriller" of sorts playing out in my head, and I
 >>can't help but be very interested to hear what the actual steps
 >>were that some of you had to take.

 >I hope you don't mind if I get 'lazy' but I'm just going to do a
 >cut/paste from a note I wrote to someone else privately
 >recently. I hope it will answer your question.

 >_Before_ I went to Hopkins I subjected myself to a complete
 >psychological evaluation. I did that for two reasons.

 >1. I honestly believed that I might be losing my mind because I
 >was 'seriously' entertaining the idea that the
 >experiences/events were based in physical reality. That thought
 >was so repugnant to me (on many levels) that I chose to question
 >my own sanity before accepting something so outrageous as being
 >fact.

 >Just a note:

 >I 'passed' with flying colors. In fact, the shrink was so
 >complimentary of me during my evaluation that I felt embarrassed
 >at times. The point is, other than some 'normal range' neurosis,
 >(doesn't interfere with my ability to function in the world) I
 >checked out just fine. In all candor there were some issues with
 >'anger' and which is something I've kinda had all my life, and
 >some unresolved anxieties, but no 'major' glitches. I'm
 >generally stable, in good touch with my feelings and the people
 >around me, and my intellectual faculties are functional and
 >intact.

Dear Gentlemen, List and Errol,

I shall inject my own edema into this thread unwarranted, as I
have already been in it.

 >2. I didn't 'know' Hopkins and therefore I did not 'trust' him
 >to give me a completely objective/unbiased evaluation. He
 >-earned- that trust from me over time. A period of about six
 >years.

 >Briefly, about Budd:

 >I don't know what your opinion of him is Ron. There is a lot of
 >BS out there about Budd and his character. All I can tell you
 >from my own fist hand experience is that he is an intelligent
 >and honorable person who conducts his 'business' (work with
 >abductees) in a completely straight, professional, and above
 >board manner. No 'leading', no 'contaminating' no none of the
 >things that he is accused of (usually) by people who have never
 >spent any time studying him live, in-person, and close-up.
 >Negative comments always seem to come from folks who really do
 >not know him at all. If you'll notice, the folks that tend to
 >'defend' Budd when such attacks occur are people that _know_
 >him personally.

On a personal note, I think it is important to say a few words
on the subject of hypnosis as relates to two men, Budd Hopkins
and Dr. David Jacobs. I know Budd and respect and love the man.
He is that kind of guy. You meet him and he just imposes a sense
of well being and conveys a warm and wonderful impression of a
desire to help. His is a passionate and devoted work. Dr. Jacobs
I do not know, except by his writings and what others say about
him, others whose opinion I respect. Highly. And his is an
equally passionate and focused desire to determine a truth.

Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
view over the alien abductors.

Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
not the researcher.

 >The bottom line is; I was very careful and thorough about how I
 >looked into my own 'case'. I went to the very best people I
 >could find. With all sincerity, I have come by my opinions and
 >beliefs honestly. It hasn't been easy.

 >That is why I react to certain "abductees" the way I do. Keeping
 >the noise level down in an environment like the Internet is just
 >mission impossible. It's like a public toilet. Anybody can walk
 >in and drop a stinking load. But there is a 'core' of solid
 >people with solid cases that cry out for further investigation.
 >The din created by a certain faction (mostly over the Internet)
 >makes it all the harder for folks to focus on these more
 >'tangible' cases.

Here is an interesting point. What you consider noise may not be
noise but another point of view, which often brings out a level
of angst from you John. Noise. In general, and in business,
noise is a positive thing. The more noise, the more people pay
attention. There can be a parallel in this situation.

I would have you define noise. Specifically what is this noise? Is
it that you do not agree or do not believe what is being said by
those guilty of noise? Or, is it that you just do not like the tone
or direction of attitude of these noisey people?

<snip>

Anger is something which must be controlled or properly directed.
Otherwise it may flare at the wrong times. Angst diminishes
one's credibility. It demeans those whom it is directed and
makes the group look as if it is devisive. It ain't. Largely. So
there.


Morty











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                   Flying Creatures Terrify Chilean Driver

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:06:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:55:39 -0500
Subject: Flying Creatures Terrify Chilean Driver


Unidentified Flying Creatures Terrify Chilean Driver


A woman and her daughter lived moments of true anguish and fear
as they witnessed what appeared to be a flock of oval-shape
creatures flying over their vehicle. The eyewitnesses were
traveling in a van from Calama to the coastal city of
Antofagasta. The incident took place last Saturday, October 27,
2001 at approximately 8:30 PM. According to one of the
eyewitnesses, the sighting lasted about 15 seconds.

The mother, one of the eyewitnesses, contacted Calama UFO Center
to report the sighting but did not want us to reveal her name.
She is a prominent business manager at a computer firm in the
city of Calama.

Both mother and daughter were planning to spend the weekend in
their Antofagasta residence. The 16-year-old daughter goes to
school in Antofagasta, so they wanted to spend some time
together.

According to them, the flying creatures they saw were oval in
shape and grayish in color. Our investigative center had never
before received reports describing these types of entities,
until now.


EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY

We were driving to Antofagasta. As we got to the slope on the
road I knew we were almost there. The road in that area has many
curves; therefore, I was very alert because it can be dangerous
to drive at night on that part of the highway.

My daughter reclined her seat. It had been a long day so she
began to relax, as it got dark. Suddenly, she jumped out of the
seat yelling and screaming. "Look mother!" Her tone of voice
frightened me, so I asked her what was wrong. "Can you see
that?" She asked me. I held on to the steering wheel tightly and
began looking up. I knew it was a dangerous section of the road
and I could not afford to get distracted.

I finally saw what she was talking about. It was a flock of
flying creatures. There must have been about 20 of them. It was
too dark to distinguish any physical aspects. They looked like
shadows. All I could tell by looking up from the vehicle was
that they were oval in shape and grayish in color. They were
very fast and did not appear to fly a straight course; they
were making wobbling movements in all directions.

I thought to myself, 'if those things were UFOs but they appeared
to be living creatures'. I tilted my head toward the windshield
and I noticed that they were traveling in a straight line. They
were heading towards Calama. My daughter noticed that one of
them got closer to our van. "I think it is looking at me,
mother", she said.

We have never been so scared. I finally told my daughter to stop
looking at them. She went into the back seat and began praying.
I thank God for not loosing control of the vehicle.

I have to admit that I was reluctant to come forward with this.
One of my drivers told me before that he saw similar beings
crossing the road in that area. At first, I did not believe him.
However, now that it happened to us, I definitely do. I still
cannot believe that I am doing this, but I know what I saw.


End of testimony


Jaime Ferrer
Calama UFO Center

Translated by Mario Andrade

10-31-01

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                 Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:09:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:05:48 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

<snip>

Hi Ron,

You wrote:

 >That's mostly by what I meant by "extremist".

 >The rest of what I meant is more from a
 >philosophical/ontological stance, stuff regarding theories of
 >knowledge, and what it means to "know" something, objective
 >versus subjective realities, yada yada yada.

 >I.e. you say you _know_ you were abducted, but all we have to go
 >on, and all _you_ have to go on, are your memories.
 >_Compelling_ memories, but still memories.

Let me ask you something Ron; years ago, maybe when you were a
kid, did you ever fall out of a tree and break a bone, or maybe
you had an operation, or someone close to you died? Do you
recall the circumstances of those traumas clearly? As if it
happened yesterday? Well, that is precisely the same kind of
clear and unambiguous recollections I have of certain _events_
in my own life. The 'UFO' experiences being predominant among
them. You don't forget something like that - ever. It burns
itself indelibly into your brain. I remember those _events_ as
clearly as I recall the time I shattered a bone in my hand
thirteen years ago. No difference between that memory and the
ones involving 'UFOs'.

Yet, for reasons that I cannot fathom, the UFO memories because
of their out of the ordinary nature must be something other than
that, and only because _others_ cannot accept that they
happened. No one would question that my recollections of having
been badly injured 13 years ago, but memories of UFO-encounters
are not. I do not separate my UFO memories from other clearly
recalled events in my life simply because they do not fit-in
with accepted models of 'what is possible' and 'what is not'.
Those kinds of judgements are imposed from the outside by
others. I recall them simply as things that _happened_ to me.

 >And sure, there are many, many similar stories - many of which
 >add credence to your statements, but still, the problem remains
 >that there is no objectively verifiable proof. I know you know
 >this, so I won't belabor the point.

That's one area where we disagree. I think there _is_ objective
and verifiable proof. I've been bitching because no one has
taken the time to do the necessary work to determine whether
there is or there isn't any. Without careful and definitive
studies being performed, the opinion you express above is just
that - an unfounded opinion. How can you know that there is no
proof if no one has ever taken the time to systematically look
for it?

 >For what it's worth, it has been due very largely to your mostly
 >sober-minded (by which I mean, you're never "crazy sounding",
 >but sometimes the "Velez temper" flares), intelligent,
 >passionate and lengthy posts about your experiences that I take
 >the phenomenon seriously at all.

 >I hope you take some sort of satisfaction in that.

Maybe not "satisfaction" Ron, I'm not out here feeding personal
needs. But I am gratified that folks I like and have some
intellectual respect for are taking me seriously and at my word.
That means a lot to me. I work hard to earn it.

 >Finally, I think maybe that temper caused you to say a few
 >things to Jim that maybe weren't warranted.  I think it shows
 >alot of guts on his part that he's willing to say "I don't know
 >for sure", just as it takes alot of guts on your part to
 >maintain such a staunch absolutist position.

1. No it wasn't an outburst of temper. I meant every letter of
every word I said to him. I think the man needs serious
psychological help and he makes the job that many of us are
trying to do that much harder.

2. Since when does it "take guts" to admit that you're not sure
of anything? To the contrary, I think it takes guts to tell
everyone that even though you are not certain, you still 'think'
you're an abductee! There's something bass-ackwards about it. I
would rather think that I'm clean out of my mind if I had an
'opening' of doubt like that. Entertaining doubt is a luxury
that myself and many others, who have clear recollection of
_events_ that happened to us, cannot indulge in. I would have to
deny and negate my own life's memories to selectively doubt
them.

My problem with it is; that people who report without being
_certain_ of their own facts, only serve to muddy the water for
those who are certain and are trying to report the facts of
those encounters. To distract much needed attention from cases
where reports are coming from credible people, who are sure of
their facts, is wrong. If he's "not sure" then he shouldn't be
mouthing-off as if he _knows_ what he's talking about. What is
so anger based about comments like that? I'm just telling it
like it is.

 >>And it doesn't make us, (those of us who are confident we know
 >>what has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent being >
 >>labelled that way. I am reporting something I _know_ happened.

 >I believe that you are not lying, and I believe that you really
 >are telling us to the best of your abilities exactly what you
 >consciously remember.

I am not lying. And, it doesn't matter much to me whether you or
anyone else believes me or not. I have to answer only to my own
mind/conscience. I stand up to be counted because I feel it is a
social obligation/duty to do so. What people do with my report
in their own head afterwards is up to them. I reported. I did
what I felt I had to do and damn the torpedoes. I will also
continue to campaign for a serious, and hopefully
multi-disciplinary, investigation into our claims.

 >>You and many others like you are a category all unto yourselves.

 >He's a Dylan nut and I'm a Springsteen nut, so we kinda are our
 >own category.....

Yeah, and I love Jimmy Hendrix, Charlie Parker and Thelonius
Monk but that's not what I meant.  ;)  I was talking about the
many 'abductees' who have diagnosed themselves as such because
they may have had a bad dream or two along the way. There are
_many_ like that. _That_ is the sub-category that I was
referring to.


Regards,

John Velez


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                    Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:34:44 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:09:24 -0500
Subject: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock


 >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:30:54 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >List,

 >I'm reading Jim Marrs' 'Alien Agenda'. In the obligatory
 >chapter about Roswell, he cites a memo (supposedly drafted by
 >Gen. Schulgen, if I remember correctly) that goes to great
 >lengths to emphasize that the AF wished a saucer would crash,
 >etc. Schulgen (?) goes on to report characteristics expected from
 >UFOs, including construction materials such as foils, plastics,
 >and balsa wood (!).

Hi, Mac,

See Chapter 15 of my book, Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the
Will to Believe and the corresponding Appendix I, where all is
made clear and, in the appendix, the real Schulgen document and
the bogus one are reproduced in their entirety. The latter had
everyone in ufology, Roswell believers and skeptics alike
(including Yrs Trly) fooled for years.


Cheers,

Karl









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                    Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:41:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:41:19 -0500
Subject: Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure'

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/local_london/news/weird/2001/october/ed023110
01.html

Aliens Are Out There!

 From the Hendon Times
By Sarah Warden

Beckenham, October 31st: A Beckenham author claims to have
answered one of the major questions troubling humanity. We are
not alone.

And the truth from out there was brought to Bromley when Timothy
Good, of The Avenue, Beckenham, visited The Glades to discuss
his research, which shows aliens are here on Earth already, with
bases beneath the sea and on land.

The 59-year-old's interest in aliens was sparked from a
childhood desire to be a pilot which made him think about UFOs.

Since then the ex-violinist has spent years travelling the world
to find out more.

His expertise has been displayed in lectures all over the world
and he was invited to the Pentagon for discussions in 1998.

America, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Spain and Italy were all research
sites for the latest book.

But he claims aliens can be found closer to home, too, and
believes he saw a UFO hovering over Orpington back in December
1980.

He has gleaned much of his information from high-ranking
military sources and sees his work as a battle against
scepticism.

Mr Good said: "I certainly don't enjoy preaching to the
converted. I want people to learn the truth about what is going
on. From what I have learnt, I know there are alien bases under
the sea and underground in various points of the world. Contact
has been made between aliens and military forces.

I don't believe all of these aliens are hostile, I think we
have different races on Earth and they have different
intentions.

One thing which might give a ray of hope is they seem to have
some sort of vested interest in the Earth and I certainly don't
think they would stand by and let us blow the planet to
smithereens.

"I think governments have a calculated campaign of
disinformation to make sure people don't get too interested."

The Glades marketing executive Andy McLean was at Mr Good's talk
in Ottakar's book shop.

He said: "The talk was stirring stuff and the audience was
gripped from start to finish. His theories are very convincing
and, as conspiracy theories go, this one takes some beating."

The new book, called Unearthly Disclosure, is currently out in
paperback.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                        UFO Studies Take Off At MTSU

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:53:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:53:59 -0500
Subject: UFO Studies Take Off At MTSU

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2560808&BRD=1067&PAG=461&dept_id=15118
0&rfi=6

UFO Studies Take Off At MTSU:
Claims Of Alien Encounters Evolve To Fit The Times


Jessica Carter
Staff Reporter of The Daily
News Journal
(Murfreesboro, Tenn.)


On a dark, cloudless night, a man driving down a rural road
looks up at the clear sky. Suddenly, a large glowing object
emerges among the stars. Although it's hundreds of feet above,
the object appears close enough that the man can see details of
its construction.

It makes no sound as it hurtles across the sky, darting from one
place to another impossibly fast and suddenly disappearing.

Although many people discount the idea that unidentified flying
objects exist, the topic remains a source of intrigue for many,
including MTSU English professor Angela Hague.

Hague will teach an honors interdisciplinary seminar during the
spring semester on 'The UFO Debate'.

"I've always had an interest in things paranormal, especially
abductions," Hague explains of her curiosity about the topic.
"It's similar to near-death experiences and out-of-body
experiences ... One seems to be related to the other."

The class will study the UFO phenomenon from a variety of
perspectives, including a historical overview from 1896 to the
present day.

Throughout history, Hague says, claims of UFO sightings
generally have correlated with political and military pressures
around the world.

In the 1950s, when the world was in turmoil over tensions
between the Soviet Union and the United States, people known as
"contactees" came forward to say they had been contacted by
beings from Venus and Mars seeking to protect them from nuclear
war.

Claims of alien encounters were less prevalent in the 1960s and
'70s. But in 1987 and 1988, the notion of "grays" coming to
Earth once again became popular in media and society, Hague
says.

That flood of attention to UFO and alien activity "corresponds
with the fall of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union," she says.
"It's as if somebody has to be coming after you.

"My theory is (UFOs became popular) because we had no external
enemies."

In addition, Hague's students will examine psychological
interpretations of UFO sightings and the treatment of aliens in
popular culture, including television and film.

 From 1947 to the present, there have been many UFO sightings
that have yet to be explained, Hague says.

According to the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), more than 10
million American adults claim to have seen what they thought was
a UFO.

"I think there are UFOs - all that means is they are
unidentified flying objects", Hague says.

Encounters with aliens have been even more difficult to
substantiate, although stories of extraterrestrial experiences
range from harmless to horrifying.

The image of a typical alien has evolved from a huge monster to
a creature with a tiny body, big head and huge eyes.

Depictions of aliens in human form, as in the television series
'Third Rock From The Sun' and the new film 'K-PAX', have become
increasingly popular in recent years.

These "domesticated aliens", as Hague refers to them, reflect
people's desire to explain something they don't understand.

"They look like us, a lot of the time they act like us," she
says. "We want to take something that we don't understand and
domesticate it and make it like us... in fact, maybe even
better."

Hague says the idea that beings other than humans exist
somewhere in the universe leads many people to speculate about
the differences between 'us' and 'them'.

What intrigues most people is "not so much a technological
difference, although they are more technologically advanced than
us," Hague says. "They are beings with no emotion who exist only
in terms of consciousness.

"They reflect a refinement of the way we view ourselves without
being clogged up with fear and love and other emotions. They are
a projection of how we wish we could be sometimes."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                   ' ...Explorations Into The ET Question'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:50:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:50:00 -0500
Subject: ' ...Explorations Into The ET Question'

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/cgi-bin/read/live/10_29-27/TOP

AACC hosts conference on UFOs
By Noi Mahoney, Staff Writer


Annapolis resident Anthony Chesto and his brother, Larry both
sat entranced.

Larry, who says he knows a thing or two about conspiracy
theories, drove from Connecticut to Arnold to join his brother
and about 40 other people at Anne Arundel Community College for
"A 2001 Space Odyssey: Explorations into the ET Question."

What drew him to the conference to discuss subjects like the
"Face on Mars" and abduction by aliens?

"Because I'm crazy," joked Larry, a retired typewriter
repairman. "I'm very interested in telepathic communication. If
you listen to a lot of the alien abduction stories ... the
aliens always communicate non-verbally."

For Anthony, an electronics engineer who wrote a research paper
in college on UFOs, the conference Saturday was a chance to see
people speaking on subjects he's followed most of his life.

"I've seen a lot of pictures of Mars. I've worked on satellites
... I was interested in hearing what people had to say," Anthony
said.

Organized by Arnold psychologist Peter Resta, the conference
featured a series of lectures on "Artificial Surface Features on
Mars" and "1952: ETs Over D.C.?"

"What motivates me is the kind of information that is being
disseminated," Mr. Resta said. "There are things going on that
are worthy of scientific study."

But not always worth being associated with publicly.

"Oh no, I can't give my name. I don't want anyone to know I'm
here," said a retired engineer from Crofton. "I've followed it
all my life. I don't believe everything I hear ... but you can't
just dismiss everything."

The first lecture of the day, "Artificial Surface Features on
Mars," could have made even hardened skeptics wonder.

Thomas Van Flandern, a NASA consultant specializing in celestial
mechanics, showed the latest satellite images from the Mars
Surveyor now in orbit around the Red Planet.

Mr. Van Flandern showed picture after picture of possible
artificially constructed structures, canals and faces on Mars.

"There's no possible scientific expla-nation for many of the
things we're seeing on Mars," Mr. Flandern said. "Like triangles
-- a triangle shape very rarely occurs in nature. It is just
impossible for wind or gravity to construct triangles ... yet on
Mars we're getting back dozens and dozens of perfect triangle
shapes on the surface."

Another lecturer talked about the second most famous UFO case in
history (behind Roswell, N.M.) called the "Washington
Merry-go-round."

In 1952, unexplained lights appeared over Washington for several
days, reported by radar operators and Air Force fighters who
chased the lights over restricted air space near National
Airport.

"The government's official explanation was temperature
inversion," said Robert P. Swiatek, a physics patent examiner
and secretary-treasurer of the Fund for UFO Research.

Mr. Resta had his first local UFO conference three years ago at
the Arnold campus, and hopes to have another one in a few years.

"The fact that we could not be alone is pretty doggone
important," Mr. Resta said.

If the youngest conference attendee had his way, there would be
a UFO conference every year.

"This is my first real conference and I love it. I hope for a
lot more," said Adam Clark, 16, who drove from Northern Virginia
with his parents.

"I love talking about UFOs and aliens. You never know what
you're going to get."




nmahoney@capitalgazette.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

              Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:30:15 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:53:22 -0500
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Mortellaro


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:38:13 EST
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:35 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>The skeptical mindset has been over the years:

 >>>1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

 >>>2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
 >>>misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
 >>>witness... (but)

 >>>3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >>>then we attack the credibility of the witness...

 >>>4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
 >>>everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

 >>>5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >>>the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >>>said earthly explaination.

 >>How different from the believers' mindset, which says that

 >The key thing is that the gulliable believers are just as bad,
 >just as foolish, and cling to foolishness just like the skeptics
 >do.

Hmmm... may I make a correction?

Dear Robert, List and Errol,

Skeptics are not such bad guys. I do not believe, in general,
that skeptics are those who believe that there is an explanation
for everything other than the abduction. I _do_ believe that
skeptics are those who believe that there _may_ be another
explanation, and follow up with that until a dead end is
reached.

I do believe you refer to the skeptibunker and wonder if you
agree? Class, the Philly, is one such.

And for the record I think you are correct, with that one
caveat. Any person should question every aspect of his or her
perceived experiences on the basis of finding absolute truth.
And for the record as well, in my mind, I firmly believe that
what I remember experiencing, did occur. It's just that I can't
believe it.

Just kidding. I can't "understand" it and therefore I cannot
accept it as absolute truth. See? What a terrible conundrum. An
oxymoron. To know within that one has had terrorizing
experiences and to know within that such is not possible within
accepted science. Such is the life of a man who questions. I
question.

 >Skeptics say all cases are explainable; gulliable believers say
 >everything is a UFO. Other then a difference of opinion, they
 >are on the same sheet of belief music.

Correction, _Skeptibunkers_! But I know your meaning.

 >>1) No UFO case must ever be explained. Any attempt to do so is
 >>"debunking", "pelicanism" or "skeptibunking".

Venus!

 >>2) Everything any UFO witness or abductee reports must be
 >>accepted without question as the literal truth. Anyone who
 >>doubts of finds discrepancies in an account is a heartless,
 >>unsympathetic monster.

Too true. Also too sad.

 >>3) There are no earthly explanations.

There may not be any earthly explanations.

 >>4) If documentary evidence which can decisively explain a case
 >>is produced it is clearly "disinformation", probably spread by
 >>the US government. This is because believing ufologists are so
 >>clever that it takes the resources of an entire government to
 >>fool them

 >>5) If ultimately believers are forced by the weight of evidence
 >>to accept a sceptical explanation, they cling to the hope that
 >>eventually someday, sometime someone will come up with the
 >>"smoking gun" which proves the ETH. 55 years and counting.

 >Always interesting to see the gulliable skeptics who believe
 >anything as long as it fits their skeptical belief system.

 >Cheers,

 >Robert

Robert, the time has come for truth. But truth as I've said so
often, can be unstable. For truth turns out to be individual,
based on so many variables which impact on logic. Sometimes
truth is mixed too richly with emotion, which when presented
with logic, almost always wins.

My truth, mine... is such that from age about three I was taken
from my home, indeed, from the bed of my parents between whom I
slept on those bad nights of expectation. I was taken by them. I
was transported somehow on a solid blue light (beam?) I was
examined. I was taught stuff. I was abused, physically and et
al. I have triangular marks on my arm and leg. Three solid
circles about 1/4 inch in diameter in a perfect equilateral
triangle of about 3/4 inch per side.

I have the same mark on my leg, left arm, right leg. On the left
arm, there is no way I could have made the marks myself. No way.
I am not ambidextrous. Although I believe I could have had a lot
more fun with my clothes on had I been. These are examined by a
more than competent dermatologist and a matter of record.
Photographed and biopsied. Many times. No answer. Not made by
anything which is in his text books. "His" words.

Lights go out on me. Clocks (digital mostly) don't work. I have
the classical illnesses which many abductees share. I have
memories. Memories which have not changed for 55 years.
Verifiable too. As mom and dad have heard the stroty that long.
Mom and dad celebrated their 63rd wedding anniversary on October
30. Dad still drives. His memories of poor me and mom's too, are
burned into their minds because my experiences were so traumatic
for the entire family.

I've experienced missing time, which cannot be explained (read
the book).

But throughout all that, I still believe that there _MAY_ be
another explanation. In my mind, highly impossible that this may
be so. But intellectually, it is possible.

Go figger.

Such is not siding with the enema .... enemy, the skeptibunker,
such is siding with logic and reason. Which when mixed in with
emotion, usually lose big time.

One last thing... Trust no one. Promise nothing. Believe what is
your truth and get on with life. And if you can, tell the world,
because there are many confused and helpless people out there.
Sharing if you can is a good thing not a bad thing. Then, all
who wish may decided for themselves. Who knows, one may help
someone in the process by telling of something which they too,
have experienced. It's too damned easy to perceive that you are
quite crazy. But when you think you are nuts, you usually are
not. This was the case with me. Phobic. But on the three plus
psychological profiles I've had, there is no illness or other
flag.

As for hypnosis, I still believe that one's own recall is much
more strong and believable (by the experiencer) than hypnosis.
Although I accept the possibility that I am wrong on that count.

Jim Mortellaro









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                     Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:58:34 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:58:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

<snip>

 >_All_ of these marks that I have collected appear on the bodies
 >of individuals that are reporting UFO/alien contact - abduction.
 >These marks are a very personal issue for me as well. Myself, my
 >wife, and my son, _all_ have 'scoop marks' - punch biopsy scars
 >-  on our bodies.

<snip>

Hi John.

At the Royal York Hotel for dinner during your visit to Toronto
with your son and Budd Hopkins, you mentioned about a knee
problem that your son had which was mysteriously corrected. When
your physician asked when the corrective knee surgery was done,
you told him that your son didn't have surgery even though now
your son had such scar marks (you attempted to lift your son's
pants to show us these mysterious scars as proof).

Apart from scoop marks, which suggest that tissue samples were
taken, have others experiencers reported similar alien(?)
surgeries, to correct various medical conditions? Experienced
surgeons should be able to say something about the surgical
techniques used by examining the scars and tell if internal
stitches or other foreign material are present.


Nick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                  Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:18:55 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:00:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies


 >From: Karl Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:34:44 EST
 >Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Hi, Mac,

 >See Chapter 15 of my book, Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the
 >Will to Believe and the corresponding Appendix I, where all is
 >made clear and, in the appendix, the real Schulgen document and
 >the bogus one are reproduced in their entirety. The latter had
 >everyone in ufology, Roswell believers and skeptics alike
 >(including Yrs Trly) fooled for years.


Thanks, Karl. I read this and knew something wasn't right. I've
read your book and apparently the story behind this fake memo
got 'misfiled'. Thanks for the prompt reply.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                       Re: More MUFON Dissent - Gates

From: RGates8254@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:48:56 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:04:31 -0500
Subject: Re: More MUFON Dissent - Gates


 >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:17 -0500
 >Subject: More MUFON Dissent


 >TO: The Executive Committee of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
 >  P. O. Box 369
 >  Morrison, CO 80465-0369

 >FROM: Larry W. Bryant
 >  3518 Martha Custis Drive
 >  Alexandria, VA 22302

 >DATE: October 30, 2001


 >This letter formalizes my previously expressed dissent from, and
 >objection to, the MUFON leadership's bylaws-revision policy (as
 >now published on page 21 of the October 2001 issue of the MUFON
 >UFO Journal -- to wit: "...to vote for the bylaws, the members
 >need to do nothing").

It would appear that MUFON has become more meaningless, less
active members and can't get anybody out to vote. Because of
this, they are now attempting to 'fix' the problem by making the
vote totals look much higher then they really are.

That way, when the vote totals are announced, instead of saying
"20 people voted in favor, 2 against, and 2000 did not cast any
ballot", they can now say something like "2020 voted in favor and
2 against."

Who knows, if the tactic is sucessful and the member 'mice' sit
around and do nothing, other political leaders of both parties
might look to MUFON as the great example of how to make the vote
totals higher then they really are. Hmm, wonder what would
happen if they changed it around, meaning if a person didn't
vote, it counted as a 'NO' vote? Nah, they would never do it...
:)


Cheers,

Robert









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                     Re: More MUFON Dissent - Johnstone

From: Lara <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:09:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:07:45 -0500
Subject: Re: More MUFON Dissent - Johnstone


 >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:17 -0500
 >Subject: More MUFON Dissent

 >TO:  The Executive Committee of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
 >      P. O. Box 369
 >      Morrison, CO  80465-0369

 >FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
 >        3518 Martha Custis Drive
 >        Alexandria, VA  22302

 >DATE:  October 30, 2001

 >This letter formalizes my previously expressed dissent from, and
 >objection to, the MUFON leadership's bylaws-revision policy (as
 >now published on page 21 of the October 2001 issue of the MUFON
 >UFO Journal -- to wit:  "...to vote for the bylaws, the members
 >need to do nothing").

 >Accordingly, as a general MUFON member and a member of the MUFON
 >Board of Directors, I hereby withhold my permission for the
 >MUFON Executive Committee -- and/or anyone else concerned -- to
 >count my NON-vote on the proposed new bylaws as a "YES" vote.
 >This denial of permission also applies to any similar future
 >action by the MUFON Executive Committee and/or Board of
 >Directors.

 >Be advised that your headstrong, illegitimate circumvention of
 >the current MUFON bylaws' voting process not only violates my
 >(and others') right not to vote; it also tarnishes the public
 >image of our public-interest, tax-exempt organization -- to the
 >degree that the public should be alerted to the potential for
 >additional wrongdoing at the hands of a leadership concerned
 >more with its self-preservation than with its duty of fulfilling
 >the first principles of organizational self-governance.

 >Therefore, in the interests of openness, fair play, and
 >democratic decisionmaking, I request that this letter be
 >published as a letter-to-the-editor, in its entirety and as soon
 >as possible, within a forthcoming issue of the MUFON UFO
 >Journal.


Hi Larry,

I am a little confused. My questions are:

1. Does MUFON wish to change the bylaws?

2. Can they just change the by-laws without getting approval
    from the people MUFON represents? If so, sounds kinda fishy
    to me...

3. Why do they say they want to change the by-laws?

4. Why do you think they may wish to change the by-laws?

5. What could their motives be?

6. Have they responded to you, or attempted to dialogue with you
    as to their motives and so on?

Those were my thoughts...

Also, I think your request to have your letter published in the
newsletter sounds like a good idea.


Take care,

Lara









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

              Re: Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure' - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:54:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:11:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure' - Jones


 >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:41:19 -0500
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Timothy Good - 'Unearthly Disclosure'

 >Source: Local London

 >http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/local_london/news/weird/2001
 >/october/ed02311001.html

 >Aliens Are Out There!

 > From the Hendon Times
 >By Sarah Warden

 >Beckenham, October 31st: A Beckenham author claims to have
 >answered one of the major questions troubling humanity. We are
 >not alone.

 >And the truth from out there was brought to Bromley when Timothy
 >Good, of The Avenue, Beckenham, visited The Glades to discuss
 >his research, which shows aliens are here on Earth already, with
 >bases beneath the sea and on land.

<snip>

 >The new book, called Unearthly Disclosure, is currently out in
 >paperback.


Morning Errol,

I was actually at the talk mentioned in this briefing.

I spoke to Tim afterwards and he is keen to "get the word out".

I asked him if he would come online again and talk to people
through IRC, he is keen to do so. I am currently making
arrangements with him, so watch this space <g>


Regards,

Sean


--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

               Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:38:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:14:54 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini


 >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:57:39 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

 >>The name Russ Hudson eludes me at the moment. Who is he?

 >Rusty is one of Budd Hopkins cases.

<snip>

 >I described in some detail (in a fairly recent post to this
 >List) a UFO abduction that Russ and his fellow musicians
 >experienced while on a playing tour of the American south.

<snip>

I think I saw that story on some TLC/Discovery show... Something
about two band members seeing a bright flash in their hotel
room, then blanking out for a while, etc.

Do you remember the name of the band?

Random anecdote, but after a club night last winter, I had
'breakfast' at an afterhours diner in Boston with the members of
a local (I think) band called "Allagash 4". I asked, and
apparently they did get permission from the Wiener brothers (who
they thank on their CD).











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:23:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:38:23 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0500
 >>>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>>Subject: Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For Children]
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

Hi All,

You wroye:

 >Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >view over the alien abductors.

 >Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
 >this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
 >conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
 >not the researcher.

The kinds of negative things that your 'off-the-top' comments
imply is an insult to the intelligence and individuality of
anyone of the bright, and decent individuals that attend those
meetings.

Do you know Harold Egeln? Harold was among the first group of
people that Budd ever investigated and worked with. Harold,
along with many others, is of a decidedly 'New Age' - benevolent
space brothers bent. Several of the people who regularly attend
Budd's groups are also members of Harold's S.P.A.C.E. group here
in New York. Although Harold and Budd each hold vastly divergent
views/ideas about the nature of the 'abductors' they get along
famously and Harold and the members of S.P.A.C.E. have always
been a welcome addition to any meetings at Budd's place.

In fact, one of the things I always liked most about the people
who attended those groups was their diversity of views on the
subject. The differences of opinion was what served to fuel many
of the interesting and enjoyable discussions we conducted.

For those who know nothing about what is being discussed in
terms of the meetings that Budd hosted, and the folks who
attended them, I offer the following:

A majority of the people would only get to attend maybe one
meeting per year. Budd went out of his way to invite different
people each time. He wanted to give everyone a chance to attend
and he seemed to enjoy mixing and matching personalities that
might make the proceedings more interesting.

One of the regulars is a Manhattan psychologist who is a hard
core skeptic. He was usually around to question just about
anything that came up during the discussions.

Ole Jimbo fails to mention that.

The only reason I attended almost all of them (about four such
meetings a year) was because Budd invited me so that I could
fill everybody in on what we had been up to lately in terms of
developing IF, any media; TV, radio, etc. that we had
participated in, or any interesting new cases or developments
that may have come along.

Usually Budd would start things off by asking the group a
question and then giving each person an opportunity to answer or
comment on it. The discussions would open up from there and off
we'd go.

I'm here to tell you that in spite of Mortellaro's purely
imagined generalizations, there were as many differing points of
view as there were attendees at those meetings.

See Jimbo, I can say stuff like that because I actually got to
know those folks personally. And unlike yourself, over a
year-long period of time.

Mortellaro's unfounded comment suggests 'consensus' of some
kind. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. He presumes
to make this outrageous and unfounded statement about "group
philosophy" as if we were all 'Hopkins cultists' or mindless
drones that shared the same beliefs. And, as if he actually
_knew_ what the hell he was talking about.

News-flash Mr. M!

There is no 'consensus', either real - or as in this case -
'imagined' among those who attend Budd's groups. Period.

BTW Docca, some 'puppies' are hard to house-break. Keep a lot of
toweling and plastic garbage bags in stock.

Happy pooper-scooping. ;)


John Velez

Former-Webmaster
Budd Hopkins' Intruders Foundation





            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                                The Visitors

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:05:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:05:05 -0500
Subject: The Visitors

http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?show=localnews&pnpID=844&NewsID2731&Ca
tegoryID=9563&on=0


10/31/01

The Visitors

by James Coburn

Nothing was ordinary about what Wes Pitchford saw hovering over
Edmond 36 years ago.

He and his wife, Wilma, were sipping iced tea while sitting on
top of their little watch tower on top of their former home
located near Interstate 35 and Highway 66. They were not
watching for unidentified flying objects - simply enjoying the
warm August night as their five children were tucked in bed.

The 68-year-old pawn shop owner said he can't be certain what he
saw above his home in 1965, but the object appeared to be "a
flying saucer." "It wasn't scary - you know - but astonishing to
see (a UFO) that close out here," Wes Pitchford said.

He and three other witnesses of the UFO were quoted Aug. 3, 1965
on the front page of The Sun for haven seen the flying object.
"Several city policemen reported seeing mysterious objects in
the skies Sunday night and early Monday morning," the story
stated.

The object was brightly lighted and frequently changed color,
reported now-retired Edmond police officer Joel Cobb. He
described the UFO as briefly being above his north central
Edmond neighborhood before it hovering again for a few minutes
over Gracelawn Cemetery.

The article reported that Jack Cook and his daughter spotted a
"brightly lighted" UFO diving downward. Cook was traveling west
of Luther when he spotted the object. Cook has since retired
from owning an Edmond hardware business.

Neither he or Cobb could be reached for comment about the UFO
sighting. Pitchford recalls the UFO having several illuminated
portholes. "It did hover between our house and (Highway) 66. It
hovered out there - it stopped," he said while glancing over an
Aug. 3, 1965 Edmond Sun news article about the UFO sightings.

"It (states) here that it 'whooshed on by, going west by
southwest,' which is about right."

He doesn't recall telling The Edmond Sun the UFO was 28 to 30
feet in diameter, as stated in the article. But it was "a good
size," he recalls. "It was kind of round with a hump on top and
then porthole windows around that," he said.

Since then, Pitchford has not spotted another one in town. He
said a lot of people scoffed at the reported UFO sightings and
talk of the incident became has since become a nearly forgotten
topic. "I think a lot of them think you're kooks," he said while
referring with a laugh to other people's reactions of disbelief
to UFO's.

The Edmond UFO sighting is explored in the newly published book,
"More Mysterious Oklahoma" by author David A. Farris.

Tinker Air Force Base reported four UFOs on radar at an altitude
of 22,000 feet, according to Farris, who lives near the
outskirts of southwest Edmond. They were also tracked the
previous evening by Tinker as well as a Carswell Air Force Base
in Fort Worth, Texas, he said.

After the sightings were the lead stories in many state
newspapers, the U.S. Department of Defense concluded the UFOs
were the result of scintillating stars, Farris said.

His book is not conclusive but anecdotal in content. It is
intended for readers to come to their own conclusions about UFO
sightings. But certainly there are cases of flying objects which
remain unidentified, he said.


(James Coburn is the features editor. He may be reached at
jcoburn@edmondsun.com)








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                'Are Mysterious Goat-Suckers Killing Sheep?'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:08:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:08:27 -0500
Subject: 'Are Mysterious Goat-Suckers Killing Sheep?'

http://www.azcentral.com:80/offbeat/articles/1031chupacabras-ON.html

Are Mysterious Goat-Suckers Killing Sheep?

Associated Press
Oct. 31, 2001 10:48:00

MEXICO CITY - A family of farmers in northern Chihuahua state
say mysterious vampire-like creatures have killed and sucked the
blood of more than 60 sheep in the weeks leading up to
Halloween.

The state news agency Notimex reported that farmer Ramiro Parra
Gonzalez was headed to his field outside the city of Bocoyna on
Wednesday when stumbled upon 35 dead sheep, all of which were
found without a drop of blood in their bodies and with two small
bite marks on their necks.

Parra Gonzalez told police that the slayings were the work of
the "chupacabras," or "goat-suckers," a group of legendary
beasts that have terrorized his family, Notimex reported.

Parra Gonzalez said he heard dogs who normally sleep in his
fields begin to howl exactly at midnight on Wednesday. A few
minutes later he heard the dogs running for their lives.

"I thought it was probably a fox," Parra Gonzalez told Notimex,
adding that he might not have liked what he would have seen had
he ventured outside to investigate.

Parra Gonzalez said Wednesday's attack marked the third time the
goat-suckers have struck his family, Notimex reported.

The attacks started on Oct. 10 when Parra Gonzalez's brother,
Francisco, said he returned to his fields after lunch to find
the lifeless, bloodless bodies of 12 sheep and one pig.

Then on the morning of Oct. 25, another relative, Martin Parra
Orpinel, said he found 16 of his sheep dead and another 14
gravely injured. All had been bitten on the neck and
mysteriously lost a lot of blood, Parra Orpinel told
authorities.

A local police spokesman said authorities were investigating all
three incidents.

Rumors of goat-suckers spread across Latin America several years
ago, though many officials dismissed the reports, saying animals
were being killed by wolves, dogs or coyotes.

The rumors spawned folk songs, t-shirts and even little rubber
goat-sucker figures.

Reports were common in Puerto Rico and there were some in the
Rio Grande Valley of Texas.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                        Mystery Space Blast 'Solved'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:13:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:13:02 -0500
Subject: Mystery Space Blast 'Solved'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1628000/1628806.stm


Tuesday, 30 October, 2001, 18:13 GMT

Mystery Space Blast 'Solved'

By BBC News Online science editor
Dr David Whitehouse

Astronomers may have solved the puzzle of what it was that
brought so much devastation to a remote region of Siberia almost
a century ago.

In the early morning of 30 June, 1908, witnesses told of a
gigantic explosion and blinding flash. Thousands of square
kilometres of trees were burned and flattened.

Scientists have always suspected that an incoming comet or
asteroid lay behind the event - but no impact crater was ever
discovered and no expedition to the area has ever found any
large fragments of an extraterrestrial object.

Now, a team of Italian researchers believe they may have the
definitive answer. After combining never-before translated
eyewitness accounts with seismic data and a new survey of the
impact zone, the scientists say the evidence points strongly to
the object being a low-density asteroid.

They even think they know from where in the sky the object came.

Completely disintegrated

"We now have a good picture of what happened," Dr Luigi
Foschini, one of the expedition's leaders, told BBC News Online.

The explosion, equivalent to 10-15 million tonnes of TNT,
occurred over the Siberian forest, near a place known as
Tunguska.

Only a few hunters and trappers lived in the sparsely populated
region, so it is likely that nobody was killed. Had the impact
occurred over a European capital, hundreds of thousands would
have perished.

A flash fire burned thousands of trees near the impact site. An
atmospheric shock wave circled the Earth twice. And, for two
days afterwards, there was so much fine dust in the atmosphere
that newspapers could be read at night by scattered light in the
streets of London, 10,000 km (6,213 miles) away.

But nobody was dispatched to see what had happened as the Czars
had little interest in what befell the backward Tungus people in
remote central Siberia.

Soil samples

The first expedition to reach the site arrived in 1930, led by
Soviet geologist L A Kulik, who was amazed at the scale of the
devastation and the absence of any impact crater. Whatever the
object was that came from space, it had blown up in the
atmosphere and completely disintegrated.

Nearly a century later, scientists are still debating what
happened at that remote spot. Was it a comet or an asteroid?
Some have even speculated that it was a mini-black hole, though
there is no evidence of it emerging from the other side of the
Earth, as it would have done.

What is more, none of the samples of soil, wood or water
recovered from the impact zone have been able to cast any light
on what the Tunguska object actually was.

Researchers from several Italian universities have visited
Tunguska many times in the past few years. Now, in a pulling
together of their data and information from several hitherto
unused sources, the scientists offer an explanation about what
happened in 1908.

Possible orbits

They analysed seismic records from several Siberian monitoring
stations, which combined with data on the directions of
flattened trees gives information about the object's trajectory.
So far, over 60,000 fallen trees have been surveyed to determine
the site of the blast wave.

"We performed a detailed analysis of all the available
scientific literature, including unpublished eye-witness
accounts that have never been translated from the Russian," said
Dr Foschini. "This allowed us to calculate the orbit of the
cosmic body that crashed."

The object appears to have approached Tunguska from the
southeast at about 11 km per second (7 miles a second). Using
this data, the researchers were able to plot a series of
possible orbits for the object.

Of the 886 valid orbits that they calculated, over 80% of them
were asteroid orbits with only a minority being orbits that are
associated with comets. But if it was an asteroid why did it
break up completely?

"Possibly because the object was like asteroid Mathilde, which
was photographed by the passing Near-Shoemaker spaceprobe in
1997. Mathilde is a rubble pile with a density very close to
that of water. This would mean it could explode and fragment in
the atmosphere with only the shock wave reaching the ground."

The research will be published in a forthcoming edition of the
journal Astronomy and Astrophysics.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:39:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Hi All,

 >You wrote:

 >>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>view over the alien abductors.

 >>Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
 >>this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
 >>conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
 >>not the researcher.

 >The kinds of negative things that your 'off-the-top' comments
 >imply is an insult to the intelligence and individuality of
 >anyone of the bright, and decent individuals that attend those
 >meetings.

Dear John, List, Errol,

Nope. Missed the point entirely. I wrote _not_ about Budd's
Group meetings. Nothing. I wrote about those _regressed_ by Budd
and by David. David's regressed abductees generally concur with
David's view of the evil nature of the alien. Of course, the
other view is possible. That David's regressed clients are those
who generally are of that view.

Budd's group are abductees who are more benign, in their view of
their abductors.

I attended two such of Budd's meetings at his home and was indeed
impressed with the diversity and the help rendered there. But I was
not speaking of those meetings at all.

<snip>

 >Mortellaro's unfounded comment suggests 'consensus' of some
 >kind. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. He presumes
 >to make this outrageous and unfounded statement about "group
 >philosophy" as if we were all 'Hopkins cultists' or mindless
 >drones that shared the same beliefs. And, as if he actually
 >_knew_ what the hell he was talking about.

There is a consensus. But not of Budd's Group meetings. Of
Budd's regressed clients. And of David's regressed clients. And
of Mack's regressed clients. Each group of _regressed_ abductees
appears to conform to the views of the regressor... or the other
way around. Simply an observation. And a true one as well.

I repeat, for it appears necessary. Budd's group meetings are
nowhere mentioned in my post. Didn't even think about them. It
was those who underwent hypnosis.

The resason I prefer my own recall is that I wish not to be
accused later of having someone point me in a specific
direction. Although I am certain that there will be other
accusations once the information is released in the book. Such
is life.

 >BTW Docca, some 'puppies' are hard to house-break. Keep a lot
 >of toweling and plastic garbage bags in stock.

And Lysol spray. My beautifull new kitchen is begining to smell
like Canal Street at midday in July.

 >Happy pooper-scooping. ;)


Jim









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                       Re: More MUFON Dissent - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <Steve@Konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:12:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:42:04 -0500
Subject: Re: More MUFON Dissent - Kaeser


 >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:09:31 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: More MUFON Dissent

 >>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:17 -0500
 >>Subject: More MUFON Dissent

 >>TO:  The Executive Committee of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
 >>    P. O. Box 369
 >>    Morrison, CO  80465-0369

 >>FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
 >>      3518 Martha Custis Drive
 >>      Alexandria, VA  22302

 >>DATE:  October 30, 2001

 >>This letter formalizes my previously expressed dissent from, and
 >>objection to, the MUFON leadership's bylaws-revision policy (as
 >>now published on page 21 of the October 2001 issue of the MUFON
 >>UFO Journal -- to wit:  "...to vote for the bylaws, the members
 >>need to do nothing").

<snip>

 >Hi Larry,

 >I am a little confused. My questions are:

 >1. Does MUFON wish to change the bylaws?

 >2. Can they just change the by-laws without getting approval
 >   from the people MUFON represents? If so, sounds kinda fishy
 >   to me...

 >3. Why do they say they want to change the by-laws?

 >4. Why do you think they may wish to change the by-laws?

 >5. What could their motives be?

 >6. Have they responded to you, or attempted to dialogue with you
 >   as to their motives and so on?

 >Those were my thoughts...

 >Also, I think your request to have your letter published in the
 >newsletter sounds like a good idea.

I have stopped paying much attention MUFON, as they don't seem
to have their rudder in the water most of the time (IMO).
They're lack of a solid direction has a number of long time
researchers looking to other sources for information, and I
really don't see any effort to improve the situation.

I haven't seen the proposed change to the By-Laws, but suspect
that the comment that they're embarassed by the low vote totals
is probably accurate. The question of whether or not they can
make global changes would likely depend on the wording of their
original Charter (assuming that one exists). But most
organizations are actually run by a small group (i.e. Board of
Directors) and usually that Board has the ability to speak for
all Members. If the Charter indicates the Board can change the
By-Laws without membership input, then they can do whatever they
want.  The only penalty for a bad decision is a loss of
membership, and that's already a problem.

Steve









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                  Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:03:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Gehrman


 >From: Karl Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:34:44 EST
 >Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:30:54 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>List,

 >>I'm reading Jim Marrs' 'Alien Agenda'. In the obligatory
 >>chapter about Roswell, he cites a memo (supposedly drafted by
 >>Gen. Schulgen, if I remember correctly) that goes to great
 >>lengths to emphasize that the AF wished a saucer would crash,
 >>etc. Schulgen (?) goes on to report characteristics expected from
 >>UFOs, including construction materials such as foils, plastics,
 >>and balsa wood (!).

 >Hi, Mac,

 >See Chapter 15 of my book, Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the
 >Will to Believe and the corresponding Appendix I, where all is
 >made clear and, in the appendix, the real Schulgen document and
 >the bogus one are reproduced in their entirety. The latter had
 >everyone in ufology, Roswell believers and skeptics alike
 >(including Yrs Trly) fooled for years.

Karl,

Why do you make everything so confusing?

 From your Schulgen documents:

3.Items of Construction

a. type of material,whether metal, ferrous, non-ferrous,
    or non metallic.

b. Composite or sandwich construction utilizing various
    combinations of metals, plastics, and perhaps balsa wood.

c. Unusual fabrication methods to achieve extreme light weight
    and structural stability particularly in connection with
    great capacity for fuel storage."

It seems to me that the "balsa wood" mention is a clear
connection to Roswell debris descriptions.


Ed








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                 Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:19:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:05:20 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:38:16 -0500
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:57:39 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

 >>>The name Russ Hudson eludes me at the moment. Who is he?

 >>Rusty is one of Budd Hopkins cases.

 ><snip>

 >>I described in some detail (in a fairly recent post to this
 >>List) a UFO abduction that Russ and his fellow musicians
 >>experienced while on a playing tour of the American south.

 ><snip>

You wrote:

 >I think I saw that story on some TLC/Discovery show... Something
 >about two band members seeing a bright flash in their hotel
 >room, then blanking out for a while, etc.

Hmmm, 'sounds like' it might be the same case, only Russ's band
consisted of four or five members (not sure which) all of which
were in the room at the time. At least that is my understanding
of it. I 'could be' wrong about that detail.

When the Trade center went down, schmoes like me who don't watch
much TV, or subscribe to cable service, lost all our channels
except for CBS, our channel 2. Out of necessity I have
subscribed to a digital satellite service that carries all or
most of the cable channels. Now that I'm able to; I'll have to
keep an eye out for program you mentioned.

 >Do you remember the name of the band?

I haven't seen Russ in more than three years. He told me the
story almost six years ago. He may have mentioned the name of
the band to me but I don't recall it. Sorry. I 'think' all this
stuff happened while he was in college. The 'band' was composed
of his school buddies.

 >Random anecdote, but after a club night last winter, I had
 >'breakfast' at an afterhours diner in Boston with the members of
 >a local (I think) band called "Allagash 4". I asked, and
 >apparently they did get permission from the Wiener brothers (who
 >they thank on their CD).

Yeah, it all started I think with the band UFO. They talked
about the subject in the lyrics to several of their songs. I
wonder if the "Allagash 4" have written/recorded any tunes about
their 'name-sake' case or about the abduction phenomenon.  ;)

No doubt about it, UFOs, aliens, and abduction has entrenched
itself, and made its mark, in the popular media.


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:24:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:07:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:58:34 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 ><snip>

 >>_All_ of these marks that I have collected appear on the bodies
 >>of individuals that are reporting UFO/alien contact - abduction.
 >>These marks are a very personal issue for me as well. Myself, my
 >>wife, and my son, _all_ have 'scoop marks' - punch biopsy scars
 >>-  on our bodies.

 ><snip>

 >Hi John.

 >At the Royal York Hotel for dinner during your visit to Toronto
 >with your son and Budd Hopkins, you mentioned about a knee
 >problem that your son had which was mysteriously corrected. When
 >your physician asked when the corrective knee surgery was done,
 >you told him that your son didn't have surgery even though now
 >your son had such scar marks (you attempted to lift your son's
 >pants to show us these mysterious scars as proof).

I'm sorry that you've mentioned this in public Nick. Although I
do mention my family members from time to time, I try to keep
them out of it and in the background as much as I can. My son is
a 26 year-old young man with whole life in front of him and a
mind of his own. I don't know if _he_ would want this kind of
information broadcast and discussed in a public forum. I am the
'activist' in the family. They have not chosen to be as 'public'
or 'proactive' as I am. I will be happy to discuss this with you
privately if you wish. But not on-list. You are free to ask me
anything you wish in terms of myself, but please ask me
privately if it's ok _before_ bringing my family members into
the discussion.

 >Apart from scoop marks, which suggest that tissue samples were
 >taken, have others experiencers reported similar alien(?)
 >surgeries, to correct various medical conditions?

Yes, others have reported the same kind of thing and some have
even reported 'spontaneous remission' from different life
threatening disorders. I have absolutely no idea how true any of
those claims may be. But that they _are_ reported, I must answer
in the affirmative.

 >Experienced
 >surgeons should be able to say something about the surgical
 >techniques used by examining the scars and tell if internal
 >stitches or other foreign material are present.

Yes, they should. Only I didn't know at the time that UFOs or
abduction may have had anything to do with it. We made the
discovery of the identical (twin) scars, one over each knee when
my son was 15. That was _years_ before I made any connection
between the 'strangeness' in my life and UFOs/ alien
intervention.


Warm regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                  Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:09:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:11:14 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:49:07 -0600

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>>>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

I wrote:

<snip>

 >I ordered the book yesterday. It should be here in a week or so.
 >I intend to review it carefully as an abductee of 50+ years,
 >ever mindful of other children who believe themselves to be
 >abductees, whose mindset may be so immature that they believe
 >"if it's in the book, it must be true." We shall see.


Dear Listers,

I am enclosing a copy of my mail to Jeff Westover, illustrator
for the children's book 'Almanac of Alien Encounters' (2001),
authored by Eric Elfman, as well as my current opinions of the
book, as requested by Dwight Connelly, an editor with MUFON. In
writing this "review," I have taken the liberty to extract
quoted excerpts from the book to illustrate my opinions.

As you will see, I am not unbiased about _how_ the UFO and
abduction scenarios should be presented to children. I do
believe there are positive outcomes possible, in that some
children may be encouraged to learn more about all aspects of
these phenomena and our place in the cosmos based on our past,
current and future scientific theories and goals. This little
book does not address this need sufficiently. Historically
speaking, and as this little book illustrates, we have proven
ourselves unable to master our fear, paranoia and disbelief in
something that has remained a mystery far beyond our control for
hundreds of years. We are just now beginning to take the
initiative to do so. Therefore, it serves no positive purpose to
terrify children with specific ET medical procedures which they
may or may not experience during an abduction.

It might be advantageous for all those interested to buy a copy
and study it. It is $5.00 (U.S) in paperback, and well spent to
decide for yourselves how this book might be improved upon in
the future. It has potential.


Sue

-----

Dear Jeff,

October 28th (2 days after receiving your note to me about the
book), I received an email from Dwight Connelly, an editor at
MUFON, requesting that I do a review of the Almanac of Alien
Encounters. I wrote him back saying that after I received the
book, studied it and had more than 2 sentences to say about it,
I would write such a review. I've read the book twice and
studied it. I have a number of concerns about it, speaking from
an abductee's point of view, and thought you and Eric Elfman
should be made aware of these concerns. I doubt that MUFON will
choose to publish the letter, simply because I have made some
very pointed and negative remarks about their organization's
stance on involvement in the abduction issues, which are part
and parcel of the total UFO phenomena.

I was hopeful, Jeff, after receiving your letter, that the book
would be an insightful, impartial history of _all_ aspects of
the UFO/ET mystery. What is presented is the reality of the
smallness of human-kind's mindset, from the past to the present
in our failed attempts to deal with the issues. It does not
leave the reader (especially a child experiencing abduction) to
have much hope for his/her future in solving the issues within
his/her lifetime. Nor does the book expand the child's
scientific understanding of the universe.

It might be wise to include a chapter on our newly and daily
expanding knowledge of our solar system (i.e., the addition of 9
new planets, as well as 1 planet just discovered, beyond Pluto,
as well as information on the new Lifter3 anti-gravity
technology, which you can find at www.tdimension.com . By adding
a couple of semi-scientific books, along with those already
included in the "Far Out: A UFO Reading List" chapter, the
Almanac may provide a more positive, forward-looking, scientific
and hopeful approach to finding answers to some of the UFO/ET
related questions. Two books which are age appropriate (10-12
year olds), and though their titles sound intellectually
intimidating, are actually easily read and understood. They are:
Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes,
Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (1994) by Michio Kaku and
Beyond Einstein: The Cosmic Quest for the Theory of the Universe
(1995), by Michio Kaku and Jennifer Thompson.

Jeff, the illustrations are marvelous, especially of the various
"beings" depicted. I have seen _all_ of the various beings, and
enjoyed making "mental corrections" to the illustrations shown.
However, it is too bad that the publisher recommended the pulpy,
"comic book" paper on which it was printed. It was probably
suggested as a means to counter printing costs, especially since
there are so many illustrations. The paper definitely detracts
from the serious nature of the contents of the book.

I know how hard you and Eric have worked on this book. I know
what it takes to research, write, illustrate and coordinate
publication. I have not written any books, only helped others in
editing and publication. I am hopeful that with corrections, The
Almanac of Alien Encounters will get _at least_ an Honorable
Mention in both the Caldecot and Newberry Awards for 2003.
Please don't give up. Your publisher would also be foolish to
give up on this book. It could be a viable addition to
children's literature, and mark the way for future such books.

With that in mind, please read the attached copy of the review I
wrote to Dwight Connelly at MUFON. There is hope for this book,
despite my current scathing opinions. I reserve the right to
change my opinion in the future, should you decide to pursue and
implement said needed improvements. And, remember, these are
only my opinions...one reader, one ex-abductee. Though I know
you will be offended, try not to take it personally. It is not
meant to be a denigration of your's and Eric's abilities. Try
another recipe, is all.

Very sincerely,


Sue

-----

Dear Dwight,

I have several comments to make about Eric Elfman's Almanac of
Alien Encounters. I was going to list the positive and
negatives, but upon closer examination have found counter
reasoning for inclusion of every one of my original suggestions
for improvement. I may contact Jeff Westover and Eric Elfman on
these issues below. These are only my personal opinions.

Overall the book is an informative, concise little history of
our lack of understanding about the UFO phenomena (mystery) and
to date illustrates well our inability to deal with it in a
mature, open-minded, scientific manner. It is age-appropriate
reading material (in most instances) for children 12 and above,
but _only_ for those children who have _not_ experienced
abduction. Familial reoccurrence of UFO/ET experiences is not
addressed in any format in this book.

It is further evident that the author and illustrator have
chosen to treat the phenomena as a generalized mystery, no
further along toward answers to the phenomena than when they
were first investigated. The author attempts to present both the
"True Believer's" and "Skeptic's" viewpoint in an apparent
effort to avoid "contamination" of the child's mind. But, by
"leaving out" specific quotes made by important persons and/or
place names, specific dates, newspaper photographs of specific
incidents corroborating the reality of the events (1942 Los
Angles Air Raid, 1947 Roswell aerial view of debris field; 1952
Washington, D.C. fly-overs), the child is left with making
possibly erroneous deductions and generalizations as to whether
or not the "UFO Flaps" actually occurred as reported.

The book may be easily read by an 8 or 9 year old, but the
material in some cases, is too mature (e.g., p. 60, description
of amniocentesis procedure done on Betty Hill: "A needle was
inserted into Betty Hill's navel"; and, p. 105, description of
an implant procedure during abduction: "The ball is on the end
of a long, thin needle, which is inserted up your nostril until
it breaks through the membrane of your nasal cavity. The pain
will be intense.") Sorry. This is not appropriate reading for a
9 year old, whether an abductee or not. This is not a medical
book.

For a child who may already be experiencing "visits" without
total conscious recall, having only vague "dream-like"
recollections, unsure of whether or not their "dreams" are real
or fantasy, this kind of description of the implant procedure is
_exactly_ what I do not wish my children or grandchildren to
have to fear _before_ they experience it. It's bad enough when
it happens without knowing what's going to happen. If I had read
this _before_ the implant was placed in my ear, my terror would
have been compounded 100 fold.

Furthermore, the common events which many people have claimed to
experience are under-emphasized (apart from an in-passing
mention of "missing time," the terror with physical
examinations). What is missing is the common description of: the
"stare," the "scanning," the "environmental warnings," nor is
the fact that upon being "dropped off," the ETs give a
hypnotizing command using the "stare" technique that instructs
the abductee that he/she "will not talk to anyone nor remember
anything that has happened." That command is _always_ given to
_all_ abductees before being returned to our reality, be it
bedroom, playground or boonies. I think it is more appropriate
to teach "blocking techniques" for these kinds of mental
commands than it is to discuss amniocentesis to 9-12 year olds.

The illustrations and accompanying descriptions may trigger
memories the abducted child is not emotionally ready to handle,
and the "reality" of those experiences may strike home after
reading corroborating evidence to support those memories. The
illustrations are "just enough off-kilter" to force the abducted
child to make "corrections" to those illustrations. I found
myself doing just exactly that.

Subtle leads are given to the reader throughout the book as to
what may be considered by others (family, friends, community
members, investigators) as to what may be considered
inappropriate behavior when reporting a sighting or an abduction
experience. For the most part, these subtleties are distinctly
negative. In only 1 case study presented was a "positive"
(albeit skewed) role model provided the reader (e.g., p. 63,
describing the 1964 Zamora encounter: "According to one official
investigator, the Air Force was hoping to find flaws in Zamora's
story, or to brand him an unreliable witness. They couldn't do
either. Zamora, a longtime police officer, respected member of
the community, and regular churchgoer, was interviewed for
hours. All who spoke to Zamora were convinced of his sincerity."
So, if you are 9 or 10 and you read this, you may interpret this
to mean: If I see a UFO or have an ET experience, no one will
believe me unless: 1) I have a very respected and steady job, 2)
participate in community activities, 3) go to church regularly,
4) am known to be a sincere person. How's that for a defining
"skewed bias" by the author?

Many of the people and incidents the author uses to illustrate
possible UFO/ET sightings and/or experiences which were reported
(some investigated) are viewed by researchers as "hoaxes" or
presented in a negative light (e.g., "Miracle" at Fatima,"
"George Adamski and the Man from Venus," The Flatwoods Monster,"
"The Kelly, Kentucky Drunken Hillbillies," etc.) What is
stressed is what the skeptics believe. "They maintained that
people who reported seeing occupants were hoaxers (or the
victims of hoaxers), mistaken, or deluded." Oftentimes, specific
details as to dates, place names, specific quotes are not
included. Where actual newspaper photographs could be used to
illustrate the "reality" of a particular incident (as the 1952
Washington, D.C. fly-overs), a pencil illustration is used
instead. BTW, the Roswell debris photo (not used) shows a much
larger area than 1 sq. mile, as indicated in verbal statement
only, in reference to the Mogul balloon incident. No mention of
the latest USAF "dummy drop" explanation was made, verbally or
photographically.

Therefore, critical thinking skills are _not_ being encouraged.
What is being "taught" to the child is that: 1) you better be
careful who you report to or: a) no one will believe you; or b)
the MIB's will come get you and may kill you [p. 36 describes
Bender's and Barker's paranoia; p. 86 Condon's paranoia in his
personal burning of all of the Condon Committee's thousands of
reports, etc. in his home fireplace] or c) you'll be considered
"delusional," or a liar, "seeking attention" if you report to
the _wrong_ people. 2) It is better to not to report anything to
anyone. Therefore, negative contamination of the child's mind is
_not_ avoided, but encouraged throughout the book.

The fact that MUFON is listed as one of several organizations to
contact in case of a sighting is slightly mis-leading. It is
well-known that MUFON members have nothing to do with persons
reporting abductions. Just how do your members address such
questions? Do you pass the buck off onto local psychologists?
That will do nothing to engender self-assurance nor confidence,
nor advance the scientific investigation into this phenomena. I
can assure you, if that is the way MUFON is prepared to handle
such a call, the issue will go no farther.

No one likes being labeled a "crazy," whether you're 13, 33 or
53. That is the bottom line, as long as the government contends
there are no UFOs, ETs. They are the liars, deluding only
themselves. There are more and more children and adults be
abducted daily world-wide, with accompanying videos of these
alien spacecraft. How many more generations do you think it will
take before "the light bulb comes on?" My children trust their
senses and are teaching my grandchildren to trust theirs.

If we continue on the tact we have been taking for 50+ years,
trying to delude the general public into non-belief of what is
happening beneath our noses, knowing full-well we are only
deceiving ourselves, life on this Earth will be more divisive,
less harmonious, less peaceful. I do not sense that to be a
positive outcome. This book, as it is presented, does nothing to
help that process.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:19:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Hi All,

 >>You wrote:

 >>>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>>view over the alien abductors.

 >>>Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
 >>>this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
 >>>conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
 >>>not the researcher.

 >>The kinds of negative things that your 'off-the-top' comments
 >>imply is an insult to the intelligence and individuality of
 >>anyone of the bright, and decent individuals that attend those
 >>meetings.

 >Dear John, List, Errol,

 >Nope. Missed the point entirely. I wrote _not_ about Budd's
 >Group meetings. Nothing. I wrote about those _regressed_ by Budd
 >and by David. David's regressed abductees generally concur with
 >David's view of the evil nature of the alien. Of course, the
 >other view is possible. That David's regressed clients are those
 >who generally are of that view.

Jim, John, List, all -

I'll risk the wrath of all by stepping in here to point out that
Jim's observation has been made by others, including John Mack
himself. Although Mack now denies that he said it to us on video
tape (us being Russ Estes, Bill Cone and me) he is also quoted
in CDB Bryant's book, on page 270, Mack is quoted as saying,
"And there's another interesting dimension to this... which is
that I'm struck by the fact there seems to be a kind of matching
of the investigator with the experiencer. So what may be the
archetypal structure of an abduction to Dave Jacobs may not be
the uniform experience of, say, Joe Nyman or someone else. And
the experiencers seem to pick out the investigator who will fit
their experience..."

Which, if we think about it, is ridiculous because they all make
the claim that the experiencers come to them without having read
in the field of abductions, or seen the documentaries, or
watched any of the talk shows. They come in fresh and clean, and
here is this matching of investigator to experiencer.

Then, on page 271, Mack makes an insightful statement that he
doesn't seem to understand. He said to Bryant, "It seems to me
that Jacobs, Hopkins, and Nyman may pull out of their
experiencers what they want to see."

In other, more precise words, Mack is saying that those under
the influence of hypnotic regression seem to be led to a
specific point by those conducting the hypnotic session. That
for all the suggestions and claims that they work hard not to
lead the abductee, that they do it anyway, probably not
consciously and probably not on purpose, but they do it. And
Mack has seen it, spoken about it, and then failed to understand
the significance of what he said.

And, please, remember here that I have quoted what Mack himself
has said about this situation.

But I could go on and quote David Jacobs, who cautions that
those with a New Age philosophy (read Mack here) may be leading
their witnesses in that direction. He also claims that he
doesn't lead the witnesses, yet in 'The Threat' he tells of the
woman who believed her experiences were benign until he finished
his hypnotic regression of her. Now she sees the real danger.

The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.


KRandle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                     Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:54:10 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 01:04:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas


 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:24:30 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

<snip>

 >I'm sorry that you've mentioned this in public Nick. Although I
 >do mention my family members from time to time, I try to keep
 >them out of it and in the background as much as I can. My son is
 >a 26 year-old young man with whole life in front of him and a
 >mind of his own. I don't know if _he_ would want this kind of
 >information broadcast and discussed in a public forum. I am the
 >'activist' in the family. They have not chosen to be as 'public'
 >or 'proactive' as I am. I will be happy to discuss this with you
 >privately if you wish. But not on-list. You are free to ask me
 >anything you wish in terms of myself, but please ask me
 >privately if it's ok _before_ bringing my family members into
 >the discussion.

John, you would certainly have been very justified if your
response to my e-mail reply was a lot more severe. People's
privacy must be respected and protected. Although my e-mail
reply was addressed to you with a blind carbon copy sent to a
mutual friend of ours who was also present at that dinner in
Toronto, I regret and accept full blame that it somehow ended up
on UFO UpDates.

 >>Apart from scoop marks, which suggest that tissue samples were
 >>taken, have others experiencers reported similar alien(?)
 >>surgeries, to correct various medical conditions?

 >Yes, others have reported the same kind of thing and some have
 >even reported 'spontaneous remission' from different life
 >threatening disorders. I have absolutely no idea how true any of
 >those claims may be. But that they _are_ reported, I must answer
 >in the affirmative.

There are very few published accounts of such spontaneous
remissions or cures associated with UFO experiences or alien
encounters that I know of. Are you familiar with many more such
cases? Is this something that has been overlooked that should be
investigated further (while maintaining the full privacy of all
the individuals involved, of course)? Are there other things
that may have also been overlooked or not generally reported
which are common to many experiencers?

 >>Experienced
 >>surgeons should be able to say something about the surgical
 >>techniques used by examining the scars and tell if internal
 >>stitches or other foreign material are present.

 >Yes, they should. Only I didn't know at the time that UFOs or
 >abduction may have had anything to do with it. We made the
 >discovery of the identical (twin) scars, one over each knee when
 >my son was 15. That was _years_ before I made any connection
 >between the 'strangeness' in my life and UFOs/ alien
 >intervention.

John, on UFO UpDates you have mentioned about an experience your
mother had which she understood as a religious one. You had a
different interpretation of it. Did your mother's experience
pre-date the strangeness in your life? Could it be that all such
experiences are part of the same phenomena, and if so, cannot be
studied in isolation if we hope to truly understand what is
happening?


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                  Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:16:29 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 01:07:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Tonnies


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:11 -0800

<snip>

 >Karl,

 >Why do you make everything so confusing?

 >From your Schulgen documents:

<snip>

 >b. Composite or sandwich construction utilizing various
 >  combinations of metals, plastics, and perhaps balsa wood.

If Schulgen indeed wrote this in regards to UFOs, then I have to
agree with Ed that the "balsa" reference is a bit suspicious.
Metals, plastics, and something similar to balsa wood are
exactly the materials described by witnesses to the debris
field.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                  Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:59:53 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:01:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Pflock


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document?
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:11 -0800

<snip>

 >Why do you make everything so confusing?

<snip>

 >It seems to me that the "balsa wood" mention is a clear
 >connection to Roswell debris descriptions.

Hi, Ed & Fellow List Fiends

Compare para. 3(b) of the genuine enclosure to the genuine
Schulgen draft collection memo (p. 300 of my book) and the
subtly doctored version of same in the bogus Schulgen enclosure
(p. 305), wherein the "clear connection to Roswell debris" is
made by tagging on "or similar material" after "balsa wood."
Then see footnote 14 (on p. 199), which explains why such
construction was of great interest at the time, making it clear
that nothing strange from Roswell or anywhere else was required
for such interest on the part of USAAF intelligence.

Note, too, the highly significant deletion ("particularly in
connection with great capacity for fuel storage") from the real
para. 3(c) when the hoaxer created his bogus document.

Thanks for asking, Ed. Hope this helps.


Cheers,

Karl








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                            Schulgen & Balsa Wood

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:13:10 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:01:58 -0500
Subject: Schulgen & Balsa Wood


Karl, Ed, List,

I checked out the appendix in Pflock's book and read both
versions of the Schulgen memo in question. While one is a subtle
forgery based on the original, the reference that caused my
initial double-take is in the _original_ as well as the fake!

Gen. Schulgen discusses UFO manufacture in terms of sandwiched
foils, plastics, and _balsa_wood_. This last reference is
patently bizarre, and would seem to represent an "insider's"
knowledge of events at Roswell. One would hardly expect alien
craft to be built from balsa wood, yet witnesses to the "debris
field" consistently describe a balsa-like material among the
foil, etc.

Secondly, as both versions of the memo are largely the same,
it's a possible that the fake emerged from within the government
in order to confuse Schulgen's fairly shocking description of
alien materials - which happen to match descriptions of
witnesses at Roswell.

Maybe I'm being paranoid and Schulgen was just brainstorming
probable UFO construction materials.

But _balsa_wood_?

I can't help but feel there is a link with Roswell here.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:32:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Hi All,

 >>You wrote:

 >>>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>>view over the alien abductors.

 >>>Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
 >>>this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
 >>>conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
 >>>not the researcher.

 >>The kinds of negative things that your 'off-the-top' comments
 >>imply is an insult to the intelligence and individuality of
 >>anyone of the bright, and decent individuals that attend those
 >>meetings.

 >Dear John, List, Errol,

 >Nope. Missed the point entirely. I wrote _not_ about Budd's
 >Group meetings. Nothing. I wrote about those _regressed_ by Budd
 >and by David. David's regressed abductees generally concur with
 >David's view of the evil nature of the alien. Of course, the
 >other view is possible. That David's regressed clients are those
 >who generally are of that view.

I didn't miss a thing. Just _who_ do you think attends those
meetings, if not the people Budd is working with? Whether he has
hypnotized them or not.

Let me ask you something. How many of "those hypnotized by Budd"
have you actually surveyed in order to arrive at the absurd
conclusion that they _all_ "share the same point of view as the
researcher?"

As I said in my original response; you are only "parroting"
remarks made by others in the past. Others, who like yourself,
have never polled or interviewed _anyone_ "hypnotized" by Budd.
Much less _enough_ of them to lend any real validity to your
claim.

Show me the survey or the poll of those people that you
conducted that substantiates your outrageous claim.

 >Budd's group are abductees who are more benign, in their view of
 >their abductors.

You're talking through your hat. You have no way to ascertain if
that is true unless you got to meet them all yourself (at Budd's
meetings) and if that were true, and you _really_ knew them, you
wouldn't be making the ridiculous claim you make - because it
isn't true!  ;)

 >I attended two such of Budd's meetings at his home and was
 >indeed impressed with the diversity and the help rendered
 >there. But I was not speaking of those meetings at all.

Those meetings are attended by the people Budd is working with!
What the Hell are you talking about? You say that those who Budd
has worked with have a more "benign" view of the abductors than
those who David Jacobs has worked with. Then you turn around and
say that the people at Budd's meeting demonstrate a "diversity"
of viewpoints that you are impressed with! Jim, if the whole
thing wasn't so very stupid on the surface I'd be laughing my
ass off.

But your "off the top of you head" remarks are not funny. You
are insulting the intelligence and individuality of _all_ those
who have worked with Budd Hopkins.

Your first, generalized, statement, that those hypnotized by
Budd all share the same point of view as his, is in complete
opposition to your statement that those of Budd's clients that
you met at the (two) meetings you did attended, have an
"impressive" diversity of points of view.

You are talking about the _same_ people in _both_ statements. So
which is it, Jimbo? Are their views "diverse" (you say
"impressively" so) according to the ones you actually met, or
are they "all the same" based on information you are parroting
from someone else?

 >>Mortellaro's unfounded comment suggests 'consensus' of some
 >>kind. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. He
 >>presumes to make this outrageous and unfounded statement about
 >>"group philosophy" as if we were all 'Hopkins cultists' or
 >>mindless drones that shared the same beliefs. And, as if he
 >>actually _knew_ what the hell he was talking about.

 >There is a consensus. But not of Budd's Group meetings. Of
 >Budd's regressed clients.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The people at Budd's
meetings _are_ the people he has regressed! And many that he
hasn't. That's another misconception that you are spreading with
this absurd comment. You give the impression that hypnotizing
his clients is something that is generally performed on people
who report to Budd. More unfounded BS on your part.

 >And of David's regressed clients.

You don't know squat about Budd's clients - because Budd himself
would have to reveal their names to you and I _know_ he didn't
do that - and you know even less about David's clients/cases.
I'll bet you can't name _one_ of David Jacobs clients that you
have interviewed, much less fifty or a hundred who _all_ share
David's views and would be a number significant enough to add
some validity to your statement. But you don't even know one do
you? You have not ever asked _any_ of Budd's people if their
point of view is in complete agreement with Budd's but you don't
even know _one_ of David's cases personally.

So once again, just what the hell is your remark based on, other
than pure conjecture and speculation on your part? As far as
I'm concerned it's a case of you talking just to hear the sound
of your own voice. There is _no_ substance_ to _any_ of what
you say.

I challenge _you_ and _anyone_ else, to show me the interviews
with Budd and David Jacobs clients where they all admit to sharing
the _same_ point of view as either of these gentlemen. Put up
or shut up. I'm sick and tired of blow-hards making false blanket
statements about people that they have never met or spoken to.

As I said, after five and-a-half years of attending meetings at
Budd's, I got to know _hundreds_ of these folks _personally_.
Many of them by name and many of which I speak to from time
to time. The statement that they _all_ share the same or
similar point of view as Budd Hopkins is a smear and has no
basis in reality.

Ole Jimbo himself admits: that the few people he did _actually_
meet demonstrated an "impressive" difference of opinion.

Gimme a break. Stop sounding off about things you know _nothing_
about. You insult the intelligence of a large group of people as
if it was alright to do so.

 >And of Mack's regressed clients.

You know even _less_ about John Mack's people than you do about
Budd and David's combined! And as has been demonstrated, you know
little or nothing about them.  ;)

 >Each group of _regressed_ abductees
 >appears to conform to the views of the regressor...

BS. Talking just to make wind. No basis in fact. Show me the survey
or the interviews. At least I attended meetings with these people
for over five years. I got to know them personally. I'm telling you
that there are as many divergent points of view among them as
there are people.

 >Simply an observation.

Observation of what? The inside of your eyelids? Certainly not
"observation" of John or David or even Budd's clients. You only
attended two meetings at Budd's, none at David Jacobs, and none
at PEER. Yet you say they _all_ - or most of them - share the
same points of view as those who investigate them. And you don't
even _know_any_ of them!  <LOL> My Lord man, can't you see why
I'm always jumping on you with both feet? You impugn the
intelligence and individuality of a significantly large group of
people, just to gratify some "need" you have.

 >I repeat, for it appears necessary. Budd's group meetings are
 >nowhere mentioned in my post. Didn't even think about them. It
 >was those who underwent hypnosis.

Who are the ones who attend the meetings, that swallowed the cat
that ate the bird, who swallowed the worm that started the fire?

 >The resason I prefer my own recall is that I wish not to be
 >accused later of having someone point me in a specific
 >direction. Although I am certain that there will be other
 >accusations once the information is released in the book.

Enough, I've given your ridiculous statements much more time
and attention than they ever deserved. I just didn't want your
uninformed speculations to go unanswered. I was there. I know
the people you are talking about. And I know for a fact that
what you say of them of is untrue.

You know, the webmaster of PEER reads these posts! I can only
speak for Budd's people because I _know_ many of them. I hope
that Will Beuche reads this and chews on you, himself.

This statement of yours is an insult to _all_ of PEER's members,
IF's members, and those who are a part of David Jacobs group of
cases. Gee, I hope you don't expect any abductees to buy your
book.

Get a new hobby man. You're not good at this one.


John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:11:54 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:00:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>Hi All,

 >>>You wrote:

 >>>>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>>>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>>>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>>>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>>>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>>>view over the alien abductors.

 >>>>Interesting if not telling. And I said, "If Not Telling!" For
 >>>>this is another datum and nothing more. Whether to draw
 >>>>conclusions from the datum is the pervue of the skeptibunker,
 >>>>not the researcher.

 >>>The kinds of negative things that your 'off-the-top' comments
 >>>imply is an insult to the intelligence and individuality of
 >>>anyone of the bright, and decent individuals that attend those
 >>>meetings.

 >>Dear John, List, Errol,

 >>Nope. Missed the point entirely. I wrote _not_ about Budd's
 >>Group meetings. Nothing. I wrote about those _regressed_ by Budd
 >>and by David. David's regressed abductees generally concur with
 >>David's view of the evil nature of the alien. Of course, the
 >>other view is possible. That David's regressed clients are those
 >>who generally are of that view.

 >I didn't miss a thing. Just _who_ do you think attends those
 >meetings, if not the people Budd is working with? Whether he has
 >hypnotized them or not.

Hypnosis is the subject of this thread. Whether he has
hypnotized them or not is therefor a silly statement of non
fact. I was there and was not hypnotized. Cogito, ergo ...

 >Let me ask you something. How many of "those hypnotized by Budd"
 >have you actually surveyed in order to arrive at the absurd
 >conclusion that they _all_ "share the same point of view as the
 >researcher?"

Actually, that is a very good question. And the answer is
"several" when I was associated with IF. How many have you
surveyed? The reason I did so then, was to establish in my own
mind, whether I should go through with Budd's suugestion that I
be regressed. Based on my conversations with those who were
undergoing treatment at the time, I decided against.

 >As I said in my original response; you are only "parroting"
 >remarks made by others in the past. Others, who like yourself,
 >have never polled or interviewed _anyone_ "hypnotized" by Budd.
 >Much less _enough_ of them to lend any real validity to your
 >claim.

Perhaps I am. But I am parroting some pretty decent opinions out
there, John. Yours excluded. As to thoise remarks, they are
merely observations as I pointed out quite specifically. They
may be telling. Probably are. That I do not agree with you is
obvious. So?

 >Show me the survey or the poll of those people that you
 >conducted that substantiates your outrageous claim.

It's not outrageous. Do your own research. Many researchers,
including John Mack says the same observation. Does that make
them wrong too? Or is it merely moi?

 >>Budd's group are abductees who are more benign, in their view of
 >>their abductors.

 >You're talking through your hat. You have no way to ascertain if
 >that is true unless you got to meet them all yourself (at Budd's
 >meetings) and if that were true, and you _really_ knew them, you
 >wouldn't be making the ridiculous claim you make - because it
 >isn't true! ;)

It most certainly is true of those I've met. Now I suppose you
want to know how many? Well, there is you. Then there is me.
Then there are about six or seven with whom I interfaced,
questioned thoroughy and asked quite pointed questions of.
Enough of that. How about answering this question ...

How many of Budd's hypnosis clients have firm beliefs that their
alien abductors have evil intent? For examplel, I do not ask if
the intent of the alien entity is to hurt us but rather, to do
evil against human kind? Is it a large percentage? Small. Fifty
fifty? How about comparing that percentage (which is small from
my experienc there) with that of Dr. Jacobs regressed clients?
Pretty telling eh? Now here, John, I can quote chapter and verse
for I _have_ interviewed quite a number more of his than Budd's
clients by about 50%. And the difference is truly telling.

Now, having said that, I cannot tell you that Budd or David or
Mack is right or wrong. Frankly, I can easily accept truth from
all three. Which is what I would suggest in your case. I've
tried hard to open my mind. It not only feels good, but one
tends to learn somethings which would not ordinarily be learned.

 >>I attended two such of Budd's meetings at his home and was
 >>indeed impressed with the diversity and the help rendered
 >>there. But I was not speaking of those meetings at all.

 >Those meetings are attended by the people Budd is working with!
 >What the Hell are you talking about? You say that those who Budd
 >has worked with have a more "benign" view of the abductors than
 >those who David Jacobs has worked with. Then you turn around and
 >say that the people at Budd's meeting demonstrate a "diversity"
 >of viewpoints that you are impressed with! Jim, if the whole
 >thing wasn't so very stupid on the surface I'd be laughing my
 >ass off.

I am quite surprised at you for not understanding English. The
diversity at Budd's meetings have nothing to do with the fact
that those he's hypnotised (whether at the meetings or not)
share a more benign view of their abductors. Stupid? Who, me?
Polish your speel cheeker.

 >But your "off the top of you head" remarks are not funny. You
 >are insulting the intelligence and individuality of _all_ those
 >who have worked with Budd Hopkins.

How indeed is the intelligence of those whom Budd has worked
been insulted? That statement alone is insulting to those you
seek to support. Let those who would, speak for themselves. You
are not their representative. As an activist, you should portray
a more open state of mind.

<snip>

 >Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The people at Budd's
 >meetings _are_ the people he has regressed! And many that he
 >hasn't. That's another misconception that you are spreading with
 >this absurd comment. You give the impression that hypnotizing
 >his clients is something that is generally performed on people
 >who report to Budd. More unfounded BS on your part.

Not so, John. There were a number, myself included, who were not
_then_ regressed. That's not BS. It's a fact. And, I gave _NO_
such opinion as you mentioned above. That was strictly from your
mind.

 >>And of David's regressed clients.

<snip>

 >I challenge _you_ and _anyone_ else, to show me the interviews
 >with Budd and David Jacobs clients where they all admit to sharing
 >the _same_ point of view as either of these gentlemen. Put up
 >or shut up. I'm sick and tired of blow-hards making false blanket
 >statements about people that they have never met or spoken to.

You wrote, "where they all..." Utter nonesense. I refer you to
the use of the words, "in general" in order to help you
understand.

First I am not a blowhard. And second, I do not appreciate being
called names on this or any List. Try calling me names in
private email. You have my address. And third, those were
neither false nor blanket statements as are yours.

<snip>

 >You know even _less_ about John Mack's people than you do about
 >Budd and David's combined! And as has been demonstrated, you know
 >little or nothing about them. ;)

Actually John, you know _nothing_ of what I know or do not know.
I've come quite a long way since I stopped supporting AIC. Stop
short of personal embarrassment and allow you mind to open.

 >>Each group of _regressed_ abductees
 >>appears to conform to the views of the regressor...

 >BS. Talking just to make wind. No basis in fact. Show me the survey
 >or the interviews. At least I attended meetings with these people
 >for over five years. I got to know them personally. I'm telling you
 >that there are as many divergent points of view among them as
 >there are people.

 >>Simply an observation.

<snip>

 >Enough, I've given your ridiculous statements much more time
 >and attention than they ever deserved. I just didn't want your
 >uninformed speculations to go unanswered. I was there. I know
 >the people you are talking about. And I know for a fact that
 >what you say of them of is untrue.

<snip>

 >Get a new hobby man. You're not good at this one.

Cheeses you should have stopped right there. Hobby? Astronomy.
Ham radio. Cars. My dawg. The abduction phenom? Not a hobby.
I've worked too hard at this for the last five years for it to
be an avocation. It is a vocation.

I refer you to your closing reamrks, your trademark...

"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."

I would add, "Open Mind" to integrity.

Jim









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:04:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:54:10 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Balaskas

 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:24:30 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 ><snip>

 >>I'm sorry that you've mentioned this in public Nick. Although I
 >>do mention my family members from time to time, I try to keep
 >>them out of it and in the background as much as I can. My son is
 >>a 26 year-old young man with whole life in front of him and a
 >>mind of his own. I don't know if _he_ would want this kind of
 >>information broadcast and discussed in a public forum. I am the
 >>'activist' in the family. They have not chosen to be as 'public'
 >>or 'proactive' as I am. I will be happy to discuss this with you
 >>privately if you wish. But not on-list. You are free to ask me
 >>anything you wish in terms of myself, but please ask me
 >>privately if it's ok _before_ bringing my family members into
 >>the discussion.

 >John, you would certainly have been very justified if your
 >response to my e-mail reply was a lot more severe. People's
 >privacy must be respected and protected. Although my e-mail
 >reply was addressed to you with a blind carbon copy sent to a
 >mutual friend of ours who was also present at that dinner in
 >Toronto, I regret and accept full blame that it somehow ended up
 >on UFO UpDates.

Not entirely your fault Nick. I want you to know (publicly) that
I really like you on a personal level, and I have always admired
and respected the work you do voluntarily and on your own time.
I have no bad feelings or anger over this 'fub.' As far as I'm
concerned it is a non-issue. I just needed to say it just in
case 'somebody else' gets it into their head to drag my family
members into any of these discussions. It's ok for me to do it
if I choose to, but not for anyone else to presume that's it ok
to do so. I needed to 'draw a line' in the sand. :) Nothing
personal Nick. I think the world of you and I know that you
would never intentionally cross those (personal) lines.

 >>>Apart from scoop marks, which suggest that tissue samples were
 >>>taken, have others experiencers reported similar alien(?)
 >>>surgeries, to correct various medical conditions?

 >>Yes, others have reported the same kind of thing and some have
 >>even reported 'spontaneous remission' from different life
 >>threatening disorders. I have absolutely no idea how true any of
 >>those claims may be. But that they _are_ reported, I must answer
 >>in the affirmative.

 >There are very few published accounts of such spontaneous
 >remissions or cures associated with UFO experiences or alien
 >encounters that I know of. Are you familiar with many more such
 >cases? Is this something that has been overlooked that should be
 >investigated further (while maintaining the full privacy of all
 >the individuals involved, of course)? Are there other things
 >that may have also been overlooked or not generally reported
 >which are common to many experiencers?

I hope I didn't give the impression that there are "many" such
cases. In fact, they are _rare_ if you go by the hundreds of
reports I have received from people over the years. Only two or
three such cases that I can think of as opposed to literally
_hundreds_ of written reports I have received/archived in my own
files.

 >>>Experienced
 >>>surgeons should be able to say something about the surgical
 >>>techniques used by examining the scars and tell if internal
 >>>stitches or other foreign material are present.

 >>Yes, they should. Only I didn't know at the time that UFOs or
 >>abduction may have had anything to do with it. We made the
 >>discovery of the identical (twin) scars, one over each knee when
 >>my son was 15. That was _years_ before I made any connection
 >>between the 'strangeness' in my life and UFOs/ alien
 >>intervention.

 >John, on UFO UpDates you have mentioned about an experience your
 >mother had which she understood as a religious one. You had a
 >different interpretation of it. Did your mother's experience
 >pre-date the strangeness in your life?

That was in the 50's sometime. I was about 8 or 9 when my mom
had that experience with the sphere of light that came through
the wall. She "interpreted" the "light" as a manifestation of
Jesus coming to comfort her at a time of great grief and worry
for her.

Those kinds of "lights" are reported by "abductees" all the
time. Either the "abductees" are all having 'religious'
experiences, or my mom had an "abduction" related experience.
Or, some 'other' explanation that we just haven't thought of
yet. That she _did_ see something is beyond question for me
though. My mother was one of the most honest, sober, and sincere
people that I have ever known. She saw "something." Something
that she described as a floating sphere of very bright light.

 >Could it be that all such
 >experiences are part of the same phenomena, and if so, cannot be
 >studied in isolation if we hope to truly understand what is
 >happening?

Your guess is as good as mine or anybody else's Nick. I'd much
rather think that "Jesus" is responsible than some "alien force"
from Tralfamador or some such place.


Warmest regards, your friend always,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:08:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

Hello Kevin,

You write:

 >The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
Mortelarro;

Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

As opposed to Mortellaro or even yourself, I actually _know_
these folks personally. I'm telling you that you're both dead
wrong in your statements. Please tell me _how many_ of Budd,
David's or John's clients you polled or interviewed.


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.3.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:35:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:11:30 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.3.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

November 3, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
11.3.01

Note: this edition of the Weekly Briefing is being sent a couple
days earlier than usual as I will be away from November 4 to 15
for the Journeys Beyond conference in Alabama. The next Weekly
Briefing will be November 19.

Paul Anderson



Mars Odyssey's First Look at Mars
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GenCatalogPage.pl?PIA03459

Odyssey's First Picture Released, Exceeds Expectations
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_1stpic_011031.html

Scientists Rely on Complex Technology to Sniff out Mars Water
http://www.nandotimes.com/technology/story/161999p-1541128c.html

New Mars Global Surveyor Images
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/index.html

Humans on Mars by 2035?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/650363.asp

'Porkchop' is the First Menu Item on a Trip to Mars
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/porkchop01.html

Changing Phases: Detecting Other Worlds With the Fade-In / Fade-Out Method
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_fade_011101.html

Survival of the Elitist: Bioterrorism May Spur Space Colonies
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/colonize_now_011030-1.html

Space Leaders Look to Future Despite Uncertain Times
http://www.space.com/news/iss_meeting_011029.html

New NASA Movie Shows Simultaneous North and South Pole Auroras
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/aurora_animation_011030.htm
l

Report: Japan Developing Satellite That Would Beam Back Solar Power
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/nasda_solar_sats_011029.html

Drugs Quadruple Life Span of Mice
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/11/02/science.aging.reut/index.html

Tunguska Mystery Solved?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1628000/1628806.stm

Team 'Find Traces of Sumatran Yeti'
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001373161,00.html


____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project
focusing on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and
discoveries that will shape the future of humanity as we
enter the 21st Century and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


THE ERAS PROJECT

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

� The Eras Project, 2001








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:44:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:14:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


Hello Kevin, Jim, John and all,

<snip>

 >>Nope. Missed the point entirely. I wrote _not_ about Budd's
 >>Group meetings. Nothing. I wrote about those _regressed_ by Budd
 >>and by David. David's regressed abductees generally concur with
 >>David's view of the evil nature of the alien. Of course, the
 >>other view is possible. That David's regressed clients are those
 >>who generally are of that view.

<snip>

 >Jim, John, List, all -

 >I'll risk the wrath of all by stepping in here to point out that
 >Jim's observation has been made by others, including John Mack
 >himself.

<snip>

What? Are you implying that there is some abuse on this List
preventing people from expressing themselves?

I hereby demand a new thread: Use and Abuse on UFO UpDates...

<snip>

 >In other, more precise words, Mack is saying that those under
 >the influence of hypnotic regression seem to be led to a
 >specific point by those conducting the hypnotic session. That
 >for all the suggestions and claims that they work hard not to
 >lead the abductee, that they do it anyway, probably not
 >consciously and probably not on purpose, but they do it. And
 >Mack has seen it, spoken about it, and then failed to understand
 >the significance of what he said.

 >And, please, remember here that I have quoted what Mack himself
 >has said about this situation.

 >But I could go on and quote David Jacobs, who cautions that
 >those with a New Age philosophy (read Mack here) may be leading
 >their witnesses in that direction. He also claims that he
 >doesn't lead the witnesses, yet in 'The Threat' he tells of the
 >woman who believed her experiences were benign until he finished
 >his hypnotic regression of her. Now she sees the real danger.

 >The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

<snip>

Most interesting observations.

at:

http://www.ajp.org/archives/53-02-1999.html
American Journal of Psychotherapy
Volume 53, Number 2, Spring 1999

Reflections Understanding Empathy and Related Phenomena
C. Shamasundar, M.R.C. Psych.

    "Over a period of time, the author has arrived at a few
    tentative postulates concerning empathy and related processes
    based on some of his experiences and observations. The
    central theme of these postulates is, firstly, that
    interpersonal interaction is an interaction of the personal-
    space fields. Secondly, empathy, therapeutic benefit, and the
    professional stress are all related to the same process of
    interpersonal interaction. This interaction takes place as an
    enmeshment of personal spaces of the interacting individuals,
    and involves transfer of a wide range of information in the
    affective, cognitive, and other areas. This is because the
    personal spaces have fieldlike qualities analogous to what
    Kurt Lewin described. Thus, such phenomena as empathy,
    therapeutic benefit, professional stress are all consequences
    of the same process. It is possible to substantiate these
    postulates by diverse evidences in the published literature.
    The natural consequences of such an interpersonal interaction
    are empathic understanding, transfer of mood states (like
    hope, distress or expectancy), affective states (like
    anxiety, sadness, anger or hostility), ideas, images and even
    attitudes and values, etc. This phenomenon of transfer can
    explain such processes as therapeutic benefit in individual
    and group settings, professional stress, shared delusions,
    and even experimenter bias. Whether one becomes aware of such
    transferred information or not depends upon the intent and
    sensitivity of the participants."

Your reflections are politically incorrect. Still, you (and Jim)
simply report the reality of the human nature. I am pondering on
wether you deserve a cookie for stating the evidence, a medal
for posting it, or a kick in the butt for doing so reluctantly.

The inevitable next line of reasoning is a given for any
candidate to crucifiction:

The effect of hypnosis must compound the transfer phenomena.
Coupled with the extreme strangeness of the abduction
experience, and the underlying desperate need to make it fit
into a personal reality, we should get a very explosive mixture
that will affect both the perceived abductee and the researcher.

The use of hypnosis in abduction cases only confirms the state
of abduction research. A couple of years ago, it would have been
fashionable to call it a Goulag. Today, let's settle for the
expression: a Desert.

Don't shoot the messenger.


Regards,









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                      Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:47:24 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:17:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:21:13 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:02:06 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle

Joe wrote:

 >>On the 'point five scale', it's obviously impossible to obtain
 >>a reading greater than 0.5 mR/h. This has been substantiated.

 >>That could only have occurred if the AN/PDR-27 setting was 'X10
 >>- >between 0-5 milliroentgens', or higher.

 >>However, Halt confirms they were utilising, as we would expect,
 >>the most sensitive setting.

 >>Consequently, the 'minor clicks' and levels of 'up to seven
 >>clicks' etc. which were being observed on the 'point five
 >>scale' must have been between 0.05 and 0.07 mR/h.

 >I agree with all of this, but the issue really is (to my way of
 >thinking), that the readings can't be compared to the background
 >readings because of doubt concering how the readings were taken.

Joe,

You are of course absolutely correct that those 'radiation
readings' were comprehensively unreliable in the first place.

However, although that's now established, they did find their
way into Halt's memo to the Ministry of Defence, where it's now
evident he mistakenly reported the "peak readings" as ten times
higher than had actually been recorded.

Halt's claim subsequently led to Nick Pope, who believed it to
be accurate, proclaiming this was the most significant basis for
Britain's 'Roswell' having involved a 'UFO' - aka 'alien
spaceship' - landing.

As Ian Ridpath wrote: "In his book 'Open Skies, Closed Minds',
Nick Pope described the radiation readings as 'the most tangible
proof that something extraordinary happened there'. Hence it is
essential that the readings are shown to be beyond reproach".

Reiterating his conclusions, on 23rd May 1998, Pope participated
in a 'United Kingdom UFO Network' IRC [Internet relay chat] and
when asked, "What in your opinion is the most credible of all UK
ufo related cases and why?", replied: "I'd say it was the
Rendlesham Forest incident, and it's the radiation readings that
clinched it for me. I checked them out with the Defence
Radiological Protection Service, who told me they were ten times
normal for the area".

The facts we're now aware of have further confirmed a number of
issues in their true perspective.

 >According to the report that I have from NRPB, Appendix A is a
 >copy of the "Guidance for surveyors". Point (10) in the section
 >headed "Notes on measurement procedures" states explicitly:

 >"Do not measure in densely wooded areas".

This is surely a somewhat devastating discovery and realisation
for 'UFO radiation' proponents.


Also:

 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:13:49 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:45:13 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle

 >>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:49:27+0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation

 >Like Roswell, I am convinced that something took place, but I
 >don't know what.
 >
 >One excellent hypothesis is that it was a re-entry of a KH-9
 >film cannister.

The KH-9 [KH7?] theory is an interesting possibility and for
those not familiar with this background, see:

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/close/kca07/refint.htm

However, I've discussed the scenario with a number of
contemporary, December 1980 base personnel who were involved
with the 67th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron [ARRS] and
they have refuted any connection. There were statedly no
helicopters from the 67th ARRS in operation during our late
December 1980 'UFO' incidents.

Indeed, Halt commented on this during one of those pivotal 1997
'on-line' interviews with Salley Rayl:

RAYL: Okay. Another question from Nels. "What type of aircraft
were at the base at that time and were there any in the air at
that time?"

HALT: Yes.

RAYL: ...In other words...

HALT: There were approximately 120 to 125 A-10s. There were I'm
trying to think, about 12, 14 C-130s, several H-3s it was in a
rescue squadron, plus the A-10 squadrons. The A-10 squadrons
were done for the holidays. Not flying, doing any night flying.
The rescue squadron was done. In fact, the rescue commander at
that time, a good personal friend of mine, really chastised me
for not calling him immediately, cause he said I could have
gotten a chopper in the air within an hour or two. I kind of
don't believe that because, you know, you'd have trouble finding
a crew and get one free-flighted, but there was no aircraft
activity. In fact, the tower at Woodbridge was down.

RAYL: Well, it was Christmas time, too.

HALT: Yeah. It was Christmas time. In fact, the tower at
Bentwaters was manned only for an emergency. In other words,
there was a standby crew up there, but it was not active.

RAYL: So, there were no jets, helicopters or any other aircraft,
American aircraft, that were scrambled at that time.

HALT: There were none that were scrambled from Bentwaters, and I
knew of nothing in the air at that time.
[END]


It was pointed out to myself by Chuck Dalldorf:

I was an aircraft maintenance technician with the 81st TFW
working on A-10A and prior to that F-4D's during my tour which
lasted from December 1977 through July 1981. I had also been
assigned several times to the 67th ARRS on temporary duty to
work on both the HC-130N/P's and the HH-53's as well.

[...]

There were no alerts anytime during the week between Christmas,
1980 and New Years Day 1981 at RAF Bentwaters or RAF Woodbridge.
No alerts for the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing (A-10A) or for the
67th ARRS (HC-130 and HH-53).

As a matter of fact, traditionally we had always been able to
get a few extra, non-leave days off over the holiday week, at
least in aircraft maintenance. We would split the time off
between the married people who generally wanted the period
including Christmas off to be with family, and then the single
GI's who generally wanted the period including New Years off. I
don't have a 1980 calendar available, however, depending on when
Christmas Day and New Years Day fell, it would have been
something like this:

Let's say Christmas Day and New Years Day fell on a Saturday.
People who wanted to be off for Christmas would start their
unofficial vacation on Friday morning and be off with no
obligation through to the following Wednesday morning (coming
back to work that day). People opting for New Years would then
take Wednesday through to the following Monday off (coming back
to work that Monday morning). While you were off, you were not
on call and had no obligations. Unless the base was called on
alert, then all deals were off and everyone reports.

There was a trip that I helped run with my landlord, Joe Haninia
of Woodbridge Town who ran a travel service for the base called
Big Ben Travel. The trip went from RAF Bentwaters to Edinburgh
to celebrate Hogmanay in Scotland. We left the base and were not
recalled. There were 28 people on the trip from both the 81st
TFW and the 67th ARRS.

The week I worked I was at the RAF Woodbridge shop and it was a
very quiet week. Some delayed maintenance (there were few if any
flying hours going on). It was a good time to take care of
paperwork, make sure there was training going on, etc. I was an
E-5, Staff Sgt. at the time.
[END]


Aside from anything else, a recovered film capsule hypothesis
doesn't equate with what was the essence of those 'UFO'
perceptions.

Comparative 'sightings' occurred over three nights/early
mornings and in the same vicinity - which might just be a clue
to their origins.

We know about those documented incidents in the early hours of
26th December [Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston] and the
night/morning of 27/28 December [Halt and co.], however, there
has been some disagreement about whether we had an 'intervening'
night.

In 'Left at East Gate', Larry Warren claimed that there was and
Halt disputed this.

I conclude that Warren is correct - we should of course expect
further sightings if the 'UFO' had a mundane, local origin - and
in recent discussions John Burroughs noted, "they had a incident
on the night of the 26th".

Consequently, it doesn't seem likely that we're dealing with any
67th ARRS operations in search of reconnaissance data.

What seems crucial and may have been a catalyst for all which
transpired is that documented astronomical occurrence - the
'fireball' which would have apparently been visible from East
Anglia and is timed at 2:50 a.m. on the morning of 26 December.

Confirmed in those early January 1981 statements requested by
Halt [he explained the delay in obtaining same was due to the
holiday period], we find how at almost the exact same time, -
"at around 0300" [Burroughs] or "at approx. 0300 hours, 26
December 1980" [Chandler], or "at approximately 0300 hrs, 26
December 1980" [Buran], the 'UFO' sightings were first observed.

In search of a 'UFO', we can perhaps surmise what the 'strange
lights' were that everyone - Burroughs, Cabansag, Penniston,
Halt et al - found to be in the direction of Orfordness [Orford
Ness] lighthouse, plus the nearby and similar Shipwash lightship
and why Halt ultimately discovered and recorded on his
microcassette [thought never mentions] the 'UFO' was found to be
"clear off to the coast" and "right on the horizon".

Perhaps worth keeping in mind Chris Armold's insight:

EASTON: Significantly, in July 1997, you mentioned there were
'some strange lights' in the distance, whose origin could not be
determined. Can you recall what those lights looked like -
indeed, anything about them at all - colour, size, whether they
were flashing or moved, etc.

ARMOLD: Yes, there were what we initially interpreted as
'strange lights' and in my opinion and contrary to what some
people assert, at the time almost none of us knew there was a
lighthouse at Orford Ness. Remember, the vast majority of folks
involved were young people, 19, 20, 25 years old. Consequently
it wasn't something most of the troops were cognizant of. That's
one reason the lights appeared interesting or out of the
ordinary to some people.

After it was discovered that a lighthouse was out there the
'strangeness' of the lights evaporated.
[END]

The full interview with Armold can be read at:

http://www.rendlesham.com/v15.txt


How familiar were those coastal lights, deceptive as viewed from
within the forest and appearing to be at eye-level...

Burroughs was asked to reconcile the admission in those
statements - that Cabansag, Penniston and himself pursued an
unfamiliar light source for _two miles_ in the darkness, before,
as he wrote: "Once we reached the farmer's house we could see a
beacon going around so we went towards it. We followed it for
about 2 miles before we could see it was coming from a
lighthouse".

He acknowledged to myself - and in absolute contradiction to
what he had previously told Jenny Randles - "As far as the part
about Penniston saying he examined it [the 'UFO' - James] at his
leisure i beleive that came out when he went under hypnotic
regression. As far as the lighthouse goes the statement's that
everybody made such a big deal about were first made available
by Col Holt [sic] during the filming of unsolved mys and if you
stop and think about it nobody asked us if we ever followed the
lighthouse beam. What i mean by that is we did follow a light
not knowing what it was...and wanted to see what the flashing
light in the distance was".

There's more to Burrough's story than this, to be published in
due course. However, it's now proven that the lighthouse and
lightship were not, contrary to some assertions - notably
excluding Chris Armold's - familiar local landmarks when
'encountered' within Rendlesham forest.

If you were looking for 'UFOs', it was an extraordinary
environment where evidently you would find them on any one, or
more, nights.


Joe, thank you for the most informative and helpful resolution
of this associated 'ten times background radiation', as now also
seen in a factual 'best UFO evidence ever' context.


James Easton

E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Ecker

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:28:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:28:09 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Ecker


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso
 >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:39:02 +0100

 >Dear Members of the List,

 >I have just received, here in France, the October issue of UFO
 >Magazine (the American one) and I want to recommand reading it,
 >if only for the article of Don Ecker's 'Honor Restored: The
 >De-Pflocked Facts About Philip Corso'.

<snip>

Greetings to the UFO UpDates List.

I just saw Mr. Gildas Bourdais' email on my Phil Corso article
in UFO Magazine, Volume 16, No. 5. Thank you Gildas for the kind
words.

For those who may not have seen this article, I include it here
on the UpDates List.

I also would recommend reading Dwight Schultz's book review on
Karl Pflock's Roswell book, 'Roswell Inconvenient Facts And The
Will To Believe', in the same issue.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

UFO Magazine October/November 2001
Volume 16 Number 05
Starting Page 36

Honor Restored: The "De-Pflocked" Facts About Philip Corso

by Don Ecker

In the newest Roswell book by Karl Pflock, 'Roswell:
'Inconvenient Facts And The Will To Believe' published by
Prometheus Books (see review, p. 75) author Pflock takes a
strong swipe at the late Lt. Colonel Phil Corso. Of course, this
is nothing new. Corso, now deceased, has been roundly savaged
for several years since the publication of his book 'The Day
After Roswell', co-authored by William J. Birnes.

Starting on page 207, Pflock alleges that Corso, among his many
other failings, is guilty of a failing of honor by deceiving
Sen. Thurmond about the nature of the book. Pflock is referring
to the foreword by Senator Strom

Thurmond that appeared in the first edition of 'The Day After
Roswell'. Pflock called the senator's press secretary Chris
Cimko and informed him about the foreword. Cimko, according to
Pflock, was "horrified" and acted quickly. A press release was
put out by the senator's office, attributed to Thurmond. "I did
not, and would not, pen the foreword to a book about, or
containing a suggestion that the success of the United States in
the Cold War is attributable to the technology found on a
crashed UFO....." and goes on to state "I do not believe in
UFOs, do not believe that the U.S. is in possession of such a
vehicle, and do not believe that there has been any government
cover-up of a UFO crash." So it would appear Sen. Thurmond
disavowed having written the foreword. In response, the
publisher pulled the foreword before more copies were printed.
End of story?

According to co-author William J. Birnes, here is the correct
sequence of events: When Corso traveled to Washington to visit
Thurmond and John Glenn, he had been asked by his editor at
Pocket Books to see whether Senator Thurmond would agree either
to write a foreword to 'The Day After Roswell' (at the time they
were calling it "The Roswell Book") or allow Corso to use
Thurmond's existing foreword originally written for another book
Corso had written, called 'I Walked With Giants'. Corso spoke to
Thurmond about it, told Thurmond he was writing a book about his
days in Army R&D with General Arthur Trudeau and the Roswell
file they had at the Pentagon. Thurmond agreed to allow Corso to
use the existing foreword for the Roswell book. Sen. Thurmond
signed a release (See Fig. 1). Pflock could have found out the
exact same thing, had he contacted Birnes and asked about this
in the course of writing his book. Could it be that Pflock was
working on another agenda, the personal destruction of an
honorable man?

Pflock goes on to commit another attack upon Colonel Corso by
pointing out a reference in Corso's FBI file, a purported
comment by then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. As explained by
Pflock in his book on page 208, [Corso was] continually trying
to advance his personal agenda and extreme right-wing politics
through lies and exploitation of members of Congress and the
FBI.

One of the documents in Corso's file includes this comment from
his dear friend J. Edgar Hoover: "Corso is a rat."

The obvious question is what would Hoover have meant by that?

J. Edgar Hoover is remembered for many things these days. During
his tenure as Director of the FBI, the agency had a stellar
reputation, second to nothing else in existence, not even the
U.S. Marine Corps! It was only after Hoover's death that we
learned of the many dirty little secrets that Hoover would have
killed to keep under wraps. Hoover's secret files on politicians
and celebrities is legendary, as is his skill at getting even.
In 'The Day After Roswell', Corso stated he was good friends with
J. Edgar Hoover. What, then, would cause Hoover to turn on
Corso? As it turns out, it was testimony that Corso gave before
the Senate's Internal Security Subcommittee on August 28, 1961,
and April 3, 1962. During the time Corso gave his testimony, he
cited instances where he believed the Soviet KGB penetrated
various American intelligence agencies and the U.S. State
Department, subverting policy to accommodate Soviet aims. In
Corso's testimony, he cites a number of instances where members
of the CIA and officers in the State Department were following
Moscow's policies in making recommendations to Eisenhower, not
what 'should be America's policies. Corso explained that
American policy, especially how the U.S. CIA assessed what the
Soviet Union was doing, was distorted by KGB agents planted
inside the American intelligence services. The Army was aware of
this, Corso told the Senate, but the penetration of U.S.
intelligence was so deep that it went largely unnoticed by the
FBI. This angered Hoover, who believed that he and Corso had a
private agreement not to go public about the KGB's penetration
of American intelligence because it would have made everybody
look bad. When Corso testified about how deeply U.S.
intelligence, particularly the CIA, had been penetrated, Hoover
went off the wall, believing that Corso had broken some
unwritten agreement. Hence the nasty reference in Corso's FBI
file. (See Fig. 2)

Information on people and events in this field cannot be taken
at face value. Careful reading of debunkery and comparing to
other sources of information clears the picture about
UFO-connected people and events. In Corso's case, Karl Pflock
did a great disservice to a very honorable man and patriot.

Don Ecker is UFO Magazine's director of research. More
information from the Corso Files will be published in future
issues of UFO Magazine. Stay tuned.

--
Thought for the Day
--
Never attribute to malice that which can be better explained by
stupidity!

Don Ecker
http://www.ufomag.com











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                              UFO Book Reviews

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:56:00 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:33:23 -0500
Subject: UFO Book Reviews


List,

Here's a plug for my UFO book review page. Along with Marrs'
book (see review below), I've added three new titles to the
Science and Technology review page, which can be reached from:

http://mactonnies.com/bookreviews.html

--Mac Tonnies

----

ALIEN AGENDA Jim Marrs

Jim Marrs' 'Alien Agenda' is a compulsive overview of all things
ufological: contacts and sightings, crop circles, cattle
mutilations, saucer crashes, remote viewing and government
coverups. While 'Alien Agenda' is an extremely fun literary
expedition, most of the stories related by Marrs can be found
elsewhere; 'students' of ufology are likely to be disappointed
in the scattered nature of the author's original insights.
Regardless, Marrs creates a panoramic look at the
turn-of-the-millennium UFO scene that entertains and fascinates.
For readers unfamilair with the subject of UFOs, 'Alien Agenda'
is likely to be an unexpected treat, brimming with perspectives
and surprises.

http://mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                     Re: Psychological Trauma - Hyvonen

From: Minna Hyvnen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:51:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:35:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Hyvonen


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:56:31 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Hi All,

 >>You wrote:

 >>>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>>view over the alien abductors.

Dear List, ebk,

Isn't there a survey or the results of research by Thomas
Bullard about the influence of bias in the experiencer and/or
UFO-researcher? If so, where could it be found?


Minna H








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:37:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >My Lord man, can't you see why
 >I'm always jumping on you with both feet?

I can't speak for Jim, but it seems pretty obvious to me why
you're always jumping on him. You insult the intelligence of the
rest of the List when you try to disguise your _personal_
problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro in the cloak of abductee
self-righteousness.

I think Kevin Randle was right. You totally missed the point of
Jim's posts.

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                     Re: Psychological Trauma - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:15:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

<snip>

 >This statement of yours is an insult to _all_ of PEER's members,
 >IF's members, and those who are a part of David Jacobs group of
 >cases. Gee, I hope you don't expect any abductees to buy your
 >book.

<snip>

Speaking of books, have you read mine? I hope I rather correctly
portrayed the feelings of abductees. (Abduction In My Life,
Wildflower Press, 2001)









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                 CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #18, 19

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:42:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:41:14 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #18, 19


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

November 4, 2001

_____________________________


(UPDATE) FORMATION REPORTS 2001 #18, 19

The latest reported formations this year, found September 26
about 80 miles northeast of Midale, Saskatchewan, were two
formations, not three as previously reported. Both single
circles, approximately 6.1 meters (20 feet) diameter each, and
about 1/2 mile apart. Further details still pending (the
location was not able to be visited).

These are the 18th and 19th formations reported for this year.


Note: I will be away from November 4 - 15 for the Journeys
Beyond conference in Alabama (taking the train); for any
messages (relatively important or urgent only), please use my
cell e-mail (6047271454@fido.ca) or cell phone (604.727.1454),
thanks!

Paul Anderson

____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public,
the media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                        Obituary - Ernest R. Hilgard

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:46:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:46:16 -0500
Subject: Obituary - Ernest R. Hilgard

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/03/obituaries/03HILG.html?ex=1005768330&ei=1&en=c

November 3, 2001

Ernest R. Hilgard, Leader in Study of Hypnosis, Dies at 97

By WOLFGANG SAXON

Dr. Ernest R. Hilgard, a highly acclaimed experimental
psychologist and a pioneer in the scientific study of hypnosis,
died on Oct. 22 in Palo Alto, Calif., where he was a professor
emeritus at Stanford University. He was 97.

Dr. Hilgard was also known as a primary author of a classic
psychology text, "Introduction to Psychology," widely familiar
to college students in entry level courses. First published in
1953, the book was issued in a 13th edition two years ago.

An expert in learning and memory, Dr. Hilgard began his career
studying classical conditioning in the Pavlovian tradition. But
it was his work on hypnosis that brought him to national
prominence.

"Hypnosis had been off to the side of mainstream psychology,"
said Dr. Gordon H. Bower, a professor of psychology at Stanford.
Dr. Hilgard "moved into it and tried to put it on a more
scientific basis," Dr. Bower said.

With another researcher, Dr. Andre Weitzenhoffer, Dr. Hilgard
developed a scale to measure a person's susceptibility to
hypnotic induction, allowing scientists to compare the
technique's effectiveness in different studies.

He was also among the first to study the use of hypnosis to
control pain.

Dr. Hilgard's time at Stanford, which began in 1933, coincided
with "the big growth spurt" in the psychology department's
national reputation, Dr. Bower said. He credited Dr. Hilgard
with bringing to the university many of the field's brightest
scholars, including Dr. Leon Festinger and Dr. Eleanor Maccoby.

Adept at reviewing and synthesizing many different theoretical
perspectives, Dr. Hilgard was known for his catholic and
objective approach to the field.

In 1940, he published "Theories of Learning" in collaboration
with Dr. Donald G. Marquis. Its fifth edition, for which Dr.
Bower was a collaborator, remains in print.

Dr. Hilgard's introductory text was translated into several
languages and continues widely in use, although his name
eventually dropped behind those of his younger co-authors. It
branched into various editions for teacher and students, and the
latest, with Rita L. Atkinson as the lead author, was issued by
Harcourt in 1999.

Dr. Hilgard's wife, Dr. Josephine Rohrs Hilgard, a psychiatrist,
was also a collaborator, particularly in his work with
hypnotism. Together they wrote "Hypnosis in the Relief of Pain,"
published in 1983 with a revised edition in 1994. Also in print,
at Harcourt, is his "The Experience of Hypnosis" (1968).

Ernest Ropiequet Hilgard, who was known as Jack, was born in
Belleville, Ill., and graduated from the University of Illinois
in 1924. He received his Ph.D. at Yale in 1930. He took emeritus
status at Stanford in 1969.

In 1957, he and his wife founded the Laboratory of Hypnosis
Research at Stanford, which he directed until 1979. The purpose
was to shore up the scientific underpinnings of hypnotism.

In medical practice, the phenomenon was introduced by Dr. Franz
Anton Mesmer (1734-1815), a Viennese forerunner of modern
psychotherapy and analysis. Spurned by Freud and most
practitioners, it remained largely confined to vaudeville and
the drawing room until Dr. Hilgard's generation.

While Dr. Hilgard's scale of susceptibility gave scientists a
standard tool for studying hypnotism, his neodissociation theory
of 1977 helped to explain it.

Dr. Hilgard proposed that several distinct states of
consciousness can be present during hypnosis. Thus, certain
actions may become dissociated from the conscious mind.

In recent years, hypnosis has been used to manage otherwise
intractable pain or fear of pain in the dentist's chair, and as
an aide in psychotherapy. It has also been used in criminal
investigations to restore lapsed memories.

Dr. Hilgard was a member of the National Academy of Sciences,
the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and the American
Philosophical Society. He was a past president of the American
Psychological Association.

Dr. Hilgard's wife, whom he met at Yale, died in 1989, after 58
years of marriage. He is survived by a son, Henry R., of Santa
Cruz, Calif.; a daughter, Elizabeth H. Jecker of San Luis
Obispo, Calif; five grandchildren; and six great-grandchildren.

In awarding him its Gold Medal in 1978, the American
Psychological Foundation singled him out for having made
"scientific contributions to nearly every field of psychology,
most notably in learning and states of
consciousness."








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                         A Bad Smell Around Science

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:52:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:52:51 -0500
Subject: A Bad Smell Around Science

http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opinterview.jsp?id=ns23155


Mary, Mary Quite Contrary

Mary Midgley is a woman on a mission. For two decades, Britain's
most visible moral philosopher has laid into scientists who have
tried to turn science into a religion. The big problem, says
Midgley, is that it seduces people into believing in certainties
and taking imperfect scientific metaphors as literal, revealed
truth. Is it time to rethink science? Should we rename it? In
her latest book, Midgley puts her money on Gaia as a guide. As
she told Liz Else, Gaia might turn out to be that rare
thing--both good science and good metaphor

Scientists with a strongly reductionist bent will resent
you, as a moral philosopher, straying onto their patch.
What are you doing there?

People think of philosophy as a special and rather grand
subject cut off from others, something you could put on the
mantelpiece. I think it is much more like plumbing--the sort of
thinking that people do even in the most prudent, practical
areas always has a whole system of thought under the surface
which we are not aware of. Then suddenly we become aware
of some bad smells, and we have to take up the floorboards
and look at the concepts of even the most ordinary piece of
thinking. The great philosophers of the past didn't spend their
time looking at entities in the sky. They noticed how badly
things were going wrong, and made suggestions about how
they could be dealt with.

So is there a bad smell around science that we should
be looking into?

Yes. I think it goes back to Descartes. He hoped that there
would be one way of knowing which would solve all
problems. It was a noble hope, and well worth having.
Because physics was so successful at that time, he thought
that physics was the model and that other difficult problems
could eventually be dealt with by reducing them to physics.
That doesn't work because physics is only one way of
thinking, a tremendously abstract way of thinking, and we
need many other ways of thinking about human problems.
The effect has been that people think either you know things
or you don't, that total certainty is what you ought to go for.
But what always appears to emerge is that, in that sense,
there is nothing that you "know", nothing that you couldn't
possibly raise some kind of question about.

What should we do instead?

The real aim is to get what guidance and probability you can
about the questions that are important to you. If you don't
have the kind of mathematical proof that Descartes hoped
for, this is not terribly important. One only needs proof if
there is some real doubt. These days we are much more
inclined to think about different ways of understanding things
and to consider understanding as the main goal. We will
never have a final answer. We are always being confronted
by new issues, so it's much more about the cultivation of a
garden where there have to be many plants. I like organic
metaphors because I think they are much more helpful than
Descartes' metaphor of building, which insists on foundations.

Has the word "science" become confusing?

I think it has, because it is partly a descriptive word, a name
for knowledge of the physical world, and partly a word of
praise--if it's not science it's no good! So that would mean
that history was no good--or music. But nobody thinks that,
do they?

What could we call it instead?

Perhaps rational enquiry would do for the term of praise. Of
course, the physical sciences are indeed "sciences", but that
doesn't mean that history and the social sciences are
"unscientific".

How did you end up in this tricky area?

When I went to Oxford in 1938 to read classics and
philosophy I had hardly any scientific input in my background.
My family were not anti-science, but they didn't know much
about it. At college I got to know a number of medical
students, zoologists, biologists of various kinds, and became
rather interested. It was wartime, and my contemporaries
were mainly women--Iris Murdoch, Mary Warnock and so
on.

You chose moral philosophy, which seems less
connected to science than other kinds of philosophy...

The value of science is a very important question morally. As
are questions about the place of science in our lives, too.

When did you get really stuck into science?

I took time off when I was looking after my small children. I
read what I wanted and picked up books on ethology by
authors such as Jane Goodall. It was a terrific revelation
because what those ethologists showed was that many other
creatures are quite like us. At the same time, I had a lot of
good animal behaviour going on around me with my boys,
and I was deeply struck by the way sentences came out of
them spontaneously, by the way they knew how to play in
ways that nobody had taught them. I suppose I had imbibed
the behaviourist idea that human behaviour is all conditioned.
I was delighted to find that that was wrong. I was taken by
the debate that was already going on between the ethologists
and social scientists--who dismissed the whole idea of human
nature as eugenic and fascist. This seemed to me pretty odd
so I started Beast and Man.

What happened then?

When I sent it to the publishers they told me to read some
sociobiology, so I bought the books and I found them odd.
They seemed not so much wrong as terribly one-sided. And I
thought: why did we have to choose at all between mere
conditioning and this rather narrow set of natural motives? So
I did my best in Beast and Man to ask those questions. Of
course I got shot at from both ends, but people did welcome
the book a bit, I think, because by the time it came out a lot
of people were as tired of fighting as I was.

Why did you stay with the battle?

I was increasingly struck by the strange things that turned up
sometimes in scientific books--particularly in the last chapter,
where there would be passages of prophecy, really, that
seemed to be quite unrelated to science. Particularly
prophecies about how evolution was a great sort of escalator
moving upwards, and humans were this wonderful passenger
on it, and they would arrive at perfection. It seemed to be an
idea which Darwin very much didn't have, and the
glorification of the human race seemed extremely
un-Darwinian, and I hated it. At first, I thought these
passages couldn't really matter, but then I realised that what
people were going to remember was this purple stuff.
Increasingly, I began to feel the pictures we use are not just
paint on the surface of our thoughts but are very important.

So you couldn't just leave it there...

No. It seems to me extraordinary the extent to which people
today who don't have any confidence in religion put much the
same kind of faith in this aspect of science. When I mentioned
this at conferences, that became very clear. The scientists,
particularly the psychologists, used to say, surely, all these
metaphors are harmless, either it's just a joke, or it's
something rather sacred that you're not licensed to take up. I
was made to feel boorish. What I wanted to do was show
what brings together the different aspects of the writer so
everyone can see he's one person and he's accountable. I
think this dream of an omega point, of a predestined safety
for the human race is corrupting. I think that producing this
confident euphoria about the future is actually bad,
dangerous.

Why?

it's dangerous when somebody with authority, which scientists
have, says the human race is absolutely booked to be alright,
to get better and better, grander and grander, to go to outer
space, to turn ourselves into machines, to get all the
information there is and in the end to become a kind of god.
When people are also hearing that the planet is in some
danger, that they are not so terribly secure after all, they will
naturally tend to think that this warning must be mistaken. I'm
a naturally optimistic person, but optimism which amounts to
telling people that they are safe when they they are not is
something that I consider to be wicked.

That's a strong word. Irrational maybe, but wicked?

Suppose you had a set of people on an island and they were
wasting resources and heading for a disastrous situation.
Suppose that you're an authority on that island, and you go
about telling the inhabitants that they have a wonderful
celestial destiny. You would be deluding people, keeping
them in a very dangerous condition. Any scientist today has a
responsibility to know what great authority he or she has and
a responsibility to use it in a wise and rational way.

Does science examine itself enough?

Scientists are not trained to do this so they often find it hard.

When you published the Gaia book this year, did you
feel that, after all the attacks, you ought to offer some
alternative vision?

Yes indeed. Mind you, over the years I have mentioned quite
a lot of other visions that I thought were pretty good visions.
But I thought Gaia was needed immediately in order to
correct the individualism in the vision of the selfish gene. That
was a powerful, attractive and colourful vision--and it is never
easy to shift people from any picture without putting one in its
place. It's hard for the scientists to see those detailed bits of
science as part of the larger vision because atomism--the
reductive notion that chopping things will get you to an
ultimate explanation of everything--is so powerful in today's
science. I think this reductivism has been carried so far that a
lot of people are beginning to feel unhappy with it. Which
made me feel that putting forward Gaia wasn't absolutely
doomed. Also, in recent decades the scientific aspects of
Gaia theory have been shown to be possible, really quite
respectable.

How would the world look in, say, 50 years, if we
adopted a Gaian viewpoint?

For one thing, science would be much less broken up into
separate bits. For example, geology and biology have been
treated as separate, but it turns out that they are not. The big
idea in biology lately has been the dog-eat-dog competition
of evolution, where organisms adapted themselves to
circumstances. But if, in fact, organisms could improve those
circumstances, or interact with them, then it opens up all sorts
of other possibilities. I guess that the same thing would
happen at other frontiers of specialisms.

Would Gaian science deal a death blow to what you see
as science's delusions of grandeur and the power of
reductionism?

Yes. I think those two became related in the 17th century. At
that time, finding the ultimate explanation through a single
science was very closely linked with God. It was a matter of
discovering God's ultimate intention. Now, although God is
officially removed from the story, people do still think in that
way. If they grasped how the full plurality of sciences is
needed to comprehend a complex system like the Earth, I
think they would be less tempted by that sort of grand
simplification.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 5

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:25:45 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:35:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock


 >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:13:10 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >But _balsa_wood_?

 >I can't help but feel there is a link with Roswell here.

Mac, read footnote 14 to chapter 15, f'pete's sake!

Cheers,

KARL








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 5

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:53:09 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:48:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Hello Kevin,

 >You write:

 >>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >Mortelarro;

Dear All, Errol,

Somehow, John, I think you do this on porpoise. I mean, avoid
the huge door in your mind which I know is there. I've seen
glimpses of it when we were... uh... the rage. Before the rage.
I would aks a question of your question... you wrote:

 >I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >meant.

Uh, just who is "everybody," you excepted? Now you speak for
this List as well as yourself and the abductees? I guess your
guess is not as good as mine... ours. Whatever. See? I am now
reverting to the voice in my head called, "Gesundt!" Which
happens whenever the sum total of human knowledge is detracted
from by the lack of sense common. Which is to say... a closed
mind is the devil's ... uh... I forgot.

 >Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

I cannot do that, Johnny, I would be exposing several
confidences. And you know how you get whenever that happens.

 >As opposed to Mortellaro or even yourself, I actually _know_
 >these folks personally. I'm telling you that you're both dead
 >wrong in your statements. Please tell me _how many_ of Budd,
 >David's or John's clients you polled or interviewed.

I told you in another post. However I am certain you will get to
that. I would be interested in another poll. How many on this
List agree with Mack, Kevin and myself as opposed to your opine?
Not that I invite others in to this frayed loop, or is it a
thread? Whatever. But I'd be darned interested in a poll of
UpDates.

Hey, out there... in the void? Whaddya say? Takers?


Jim









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 5

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:14:03 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:51:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Hello Kevin,

 >You write:

 >>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >Mortelarro;

 >Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

Actually, this is something of a red herring. I quoted from both
Mack and Jacobs, making the same point that Jim had made. It was
Mack who suggested that Hopkins, Jacobs, and Nyman pull from
their experiencers what they want to see. Mack said it to us
during a video taped interview and he said it to Bryant in his
book... as I mentioned before.

See, the claim is not outrageous because the researchers you
quote are the same that I quote and those researchers have
suggested the matching of abductees to researchers.

 >As opposed to Mortellaro or even yourself, I actually _know_
 >these folks personally. I'm telling you that you're both dead
 >wrong in your statements. Please tell me _how many_ of Budd,
 >David's or John's clients you polled or interviewed.

In our research we used abductees who had been regressed by all
three... and those regressed by Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter and
several others including "He Who Shall Remain Nameless."

But once again, if you have an argument with the observation,
then please take it up with John Mack and David Jacobs as well.


KRandle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 5

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:12:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:42:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>My Lord man, can't you see why
 >>I'm always jumping on you with both feet?

 >I can't speak for Jim, but it seems pretty obvious to me why
 >you're always jumping on him. You insult the intelligence of the
 >rest of the List when you try to disguise your _personal_
 >problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro in the cloak of abductee
 >self-righteousness.

Well Hello again Ms. Felder,

This 'thread' between Mr. Mortellaro and myself is about his
"claim" that all of the abductees that Hopkins, Jacobs, & Mack
have hypnotized, collectively agree with the individual
researchers viewpoints on the phenomenon.

I contend that he doesn't know what he's talking about because
he has never known or interviewed enough of them to make such an
outrageous and unfounded statement. Not just Mortellaro,
_no_one_ has taken such a poll.

In point of fact, because I attended meetings with literally
hundreds of Budd's "people/cases" for so many years, and because
I know _many_ of them personally, that maybe he should consider
my opinions on the subject. I am telling him that I have not
seen _any_ evidence that would uphold his claim. He has agreed
with me that the 'few' people he did meet, "impressed" him, with
the diversity of their views and thoughts on the subject.

My question to you is:

What does your very (personal) "diagnosis" of me (See quote
below) have to do with the subject of this thread? "What" is
your "contribution" to the subject of this discussion Bobby? Is
it this 'personal' and 'bile tinged' comment that is based on
your own personal feelings toward me?

You write:

 >you try to disguise your _personal_ problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro
 >in the cloak of abductee self-righteousness.

BTW, just what the hell is "abductee self-righteousness" anyway?
Some 'new' psychological disorder that you discovered while
writing a thesis for your psychology degree? Oh, I forgot, you
don't have a degree in psychology. Practicing on me without a
license eh? <LOL> I ask you only because it's all just a tad
'convoluted' for me. Never mind. I didn't ask for your personal
opinion of me anyway, so I'm not really terribly curious about
how you 'arrived there.'

Solely for the edification of the List members:

My "personal" problem with Mortellaro does not exist. As there
is nothing "personal" in it. _Strictly_ business. If you'll take
note at the archives, I always "respond" to whatever it happens
to be that he is putting out publicly regarding UFO abduction or
abductees that has no _proven_ basis in fact. My posts to him
are _all_ a matter of public record. _Everything_ I have ever
said to him, is located for inspection at the UFO UpDates
archive. Go there. Read. You'll get an eyeful!

For Mz. Felder:

Bobbie, you are completely free to think any old twisted thing
about me that you can conjure up, or that makes you feel good.
There's nothing any of us can do about what anybody, (much less
'everybody') may choose to think of us personally. Just the way
it is. I have learned from experience that I am the kind of
person that people either love, or they curse the day I entered
the world. Not too many in-betweeners with me. :)

A 'true-ism' if I may:

"Control" over _anything_ in Life, much less control over the
thoughts of others, is all 'Maya' Bobbie. (An 'illusion') All we
really need be concerned about, and responsible for, is; the
quality of the energy behind our expressed thoughts.

It's ok. Your 'contribution' to the thread has been logged and
duly noted. By the by, do you have anything in the way of a
'useful' or 'informative' contribution to make to the current
discussion? If not, maybe you want to start another thread! You
can title it:

"John Velez's many colored cloak of abductee
self-righteousness!"

Mortellaro refers to me as; the "Egotistical and Paranoid King
of the abductees" to complete strangers behind my back. So I may
as well have a "cloak" too! Maybe he's right! My own dad always
wanted to "crown" me! <LOL>

As always, really great to hear from you Bobbie. A fine
contribution from you once again.  ;)


John Velez

            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 03:15:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 03:15:03 -0500
Subject: Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There

http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,587309,00.html


Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There

Paul Harris
Sunday November 4, 2001
The Observer

Britain's spies have given up looking for aliens after more than
half a century of fruitless monitoring of thousands of UFO
reports.

Ever since the early 1950s reports of sightings of unidentified
flying objects by members of the public and military personnel
have been logged by the Ministry of Defence and passed on to its
intelligence branch.

But the Directorate of Intelligence, Scientific and Technical,
has now abandoned the quest for ET. The directorate specialises
in scientific espionage and analysis of advanced technologies
but documents seen by The Observer show it asked last year that
it be sent no further reports of UFO sightings. 'These records,
whether from members of the public or service sources, have not
proved valuable,' the department concluded.

The decision ends five decades of army intelligence experts
investigating UFO sightings from all over Britain, including
many from Royal Air Force pilots. 'They are essentially saying
they have wasted their time for 50 years and they want nothing
more to do with it,' said Dave Clark of the National Centre for
Folklore Studies at Sheffield University and a leading UFO
researcher.

Britain's official search for UFOs began in the late 1940s and
peaked with a top-secret government study into the 'flying
saucer' phenomenon, commissioned in 1951. That study, details of
which were published for the first time in The Observer two
weeks ago, concluded that no UFO sightings were genuine but
attempted to hush up the reports to avoid creating panic at the
height of the Cold War.

Clark believes the Government is finally willing to admit that
studying UFO sightings is pointless. He said modern radar
systems have become sophisticated enough to explain the vast
majority of sightings as being aircraft or atmospheric
conditions. 'They have looked at the subject and they have
simply decided there is nothing in it,' he said.

However, the Ministry of Defence will maintain its small
internal UFO desk, which logs and reports all sightings reported
to it by members of the public. 'They are not shutting down
entirely, but their intelligence experts don't want to know any
more. The operation is now just a PR stunt to keep the public
happy,' said Clark.

UFO enthusiasts are not likely to be satisfied at the lack of
interest shown in the possibility that aliens might be visiting
Earth. Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO Magazine, said: 'I find
this decision extraordinary. If people are seeing unusual things
in the skies of Britain, I am sure the intelligence officials
will still want to know about it.'

There has been media speculation that the UFO phenomenon is on
the wane. But Birdsall said UFOs were still being seen in their
hundreds and that it would be a mistake for the Government to
stop investigating sightings.

'The phenomenon is still as intense and busy as ever. The fact
remains that UFOs continue to be seen, continue to be reported
and continue to be videotaped,' he said.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                               Old German UFO?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:17:53 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:19:23 -0500
Subject: Old German UFO?


Dear List Members,

Could somebody please tell me about this 'UFO'?
I'd love to see a translation, as my German is
virtually nil.

Thankyou,

Chris Aubeck

http://www.fulgura.de/inselfel.htm










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:24:19 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:24:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:12:50 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


 >>Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>My Lord man, can't you see why
 >>>I'm always jumping on you with both feet?

 >>I can't speak for Jim, but it seems pretty obvious to me why
 >>you're always jumping on him. You insult the intelligence of the
 >>rest of the List when you try to disguise your _personal_
 >>problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro in the cloak of abductee
 >>self-righteousness.

 >Well Hello again Ms. Felder,

 >This 'thread' between Mr. Mortellaro and myself is about his
 >"claim" that all of the abductees that Hopkins, Jacobs, & Mack
 >have hypnotized, collectively agree with the individual
 >researchers viewpoints on the phenomenon.

Dear All, Errol,

Actually, this thread is not at all about any claim that _all_
the abductees that Budd, John and David have hypnotised
collectively agree with the individual researchers' view points.
That is _your_ contention. My contention is that as three
groups, they have differing viewpoints, generally. You've
already been asked pointed questions about this matter in
another post. I await your response withall.

 >I contend that he doesn't know what he's talking about because
 >he has never known or interviewed enough of them to make such an
 >outrageous and unfounded statement. Not just Mortellaro,
 >_no_one_ has taken such a poll.

Wonderful then, as I have interviewed a large enough sampling of
each for my book. And of course, I don't tell you everything. I
hope you don't mind. There is no poll. Read David's book. Then
speak with his clients. Then do the same with John and Budd's
clients. A pattern will emerge. Clearly so.

Further, it is not necessary to take a poll in order to have an
opinion. Shoot, if we had to do that, we'd be Japanese doing
consensus management and bowing low. I don't do bows. Domo
arrigato, Johnny San.

 >In point of fact, because I attended meetings with literally
 >hundreds of Budd's "people/cases" for so many years, and because
 >I know _many_ of them personally, that maybe he should consider
 >my opinions on the subject. I am telling him that I have not
 >seen _any_ evidence that would uphold his claim. He has agreed
 >with me that the 'few' people he did meet, "impressed" him, with
 >the diversity of their views and thoughts on the subject.

At the meeting, yes. But not all these were regressed. Don't you
read my posts?

 >My question to you is:

 >What does your very (personal) "diagnosis" of me (See quote
 >below) have to do with the subject of this thread? "What" is
 >your "contribution" to the subject of this discussion Bobby? Is
 >it this 'personal' and 'bile tinged' comment that is based on
 >your own personal feelings toward me?

 >You write:

 >>you try to disguise your _personal_ problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro
 >>in the cloak of abductee self-righteousness.

 >BTW, just what the hell is "abductee self-righteousness" anyway?
 >Some 'new' psychological disorder that you discovered while
 >writing a thesis for your psychology degree? Oh, I forgot, you
 >don't have a degree in psychology. Practicing on me without a
 >license eh? <LOL>I ask you only because it's all just a tad
 >'convoluted' for me. Never mind. I didn't ask for your personal
 >opinion of me anyway, so I'm not really terribly curious about
 >how you 'arrived there.'

 >Solely for the edification of the List members:

 >My "personal" problem with Mortellaro does not exist. As there
 >is nothing "personal" in it. _Strictly_ business. If you'll take
 >note at the archives, I always "respond" to whatever it happens
 >to be that he is putting out publicly regarding UFO abduction or
 >abductees that has no _proven_ basis in fact. My posts to him
 >are _all_ a matter of public record. _Everything_ I have ever
 >said to him, is located for inspection at the UFO UpDates
 >archive. Go there. Read. You'll get an eyeful!

Rather an earful.

 >Snip

 >Mortellaro refers to me as; the "Egotistical and Paranoid King
 >of the abductees" to complete strangers behind my back. So I may
 >as well have a "cloak" too! Maybe he's right! My own dad always
 >wanted to "crown" me! <LOL>

I have _never_ referred to you as the "Egotistical and Paranoid
King of the J.... uh, Abductees." Never. Behind your back or
otherwise. Produce the juice. Royalty never impressed me anyway.
Divine right and all that snuff.

Actually it is personal. I've heard you say and write on this
List, that you would "welcome" any legitimate causation for this
phenom, other than alien interdiction in our lives. That you
too, are looking for an answer to the conundrum. But when I
voice the opnion that I do not have the absolute truth, you
climb on me like a monkey on a rope.

Hmmm. Not personal? I doubt that. But again, I speak my truth. I
am entitled to opinions. Which I describe as such. In this
thread as well. Read it again. _Opinion!_

That this opine is in consort with others of repute, is yet
again, a demonstration that whilst I am not royalty, I am at
least a Prince with portfolio. Muchabellie is my name. Prince is
my game. And I shall never allow lies to steal my name. Lies may
be twisted meaning. And my arms are way too short to box with
you when you do that.


Morty









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:02:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:31:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:53:09 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Kevin,

 >>You write:

 >>>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >>I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >>everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >>meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >>Mortelarro;

 >Somehow, John, I think you do this on porpoise. I mean, avoid
 >the huge door in your mind which I know is there. I've seen
 >glimpses of it when we were... uh... the rage. Before the rage.
 >I would aks a question of your question... you wrote:

Hello "Docca"

You write:

 >>I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >>everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >>meant.

 >Uh, just who is "everybody," you excepted? Now you speak for
 >this List as well as yourself and the abductees?

Nope, I was referring to Kevin. And I never claim to speak for
anyone but myself. Check all past e-mails.   :)

 >I guess your  guess is not as good as mine... ours. Whatever.

See that's my "point" Docca. I'm not "guessing." The comments I
have made in this thread regarding the people Budd has worked
with are based on _first_hand_ knowledge. Unlike your own. Do
the math "Docca."

I attended four, sometimes as many as six, of Budd's meetings
each year for five-and-a-half years. An average of twenty to
thirty of his clients attended each meeting. Budd went out of
his way to invite -different- folks each time so that they could
_all_ get a chance to attend one of his get together's at least
once. Because of my _work_ relationship with Budd, and because I
was the webmaster of IF, they would all go out of their way to
catch me after meetings to meet me and ask questions or engage
me in what were mostly very lively conversations.

You conveniently forget that I worked very closely with Budd for
all that time. Don't take _my_ word for it, call Budd, ask him.
Call Greg Sandow, ask him. I was the guy that _developed_ IF
into what it eventually became, a broad-based service
organization for those who seek help or information about UFO
abduction. Because of the nature of my position/function as
webmaster of the Intruders Foundation I, (of necessity) came
into _direct_contact_ with almost _all_ of the 'local' clients
that Budd acquired.

It was _Budd_ who asked me to call them and to talk to them. So
you see, I actually worked and socialized with the group of
people whose intelligence and individuality you are insulting.
It is the sole reason I am 'on you like white on rice' over this
_public_lie_ you have told about them. (That they all agree with
the respective researchers 'take' on the subject.) BS!

In a slip, or a moment of lucidity you yourself have stated that
the 'few' of these individuals that you have met all "impressed"
you with the diversity of their views. Which is in direct
contradiction to the claim you make about all of them "sharing"
a "point of view". You make them sound like mindless drones that
are incapable of having an original thought on their own.

I'm not only 'calling' you on it, I publicly challenge you to
substantiate it. Something that after three or four of these
posts you have yet to do.

Mucho talk-o, no proof-o!   ;)

 >>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

 >I cannot do that, Johnny, I would be exposing several
 >confidences. And you know how you get whenever that happens.

Not true. Because you can't. How many is "several" three? Four?
I want to know how many - not their names - of either Hopkins',
Jacobs', or Mack's case studies you polled or interviewed in
order to _substantiate_ your insulting and outrageous claim
that they all agree with the viewpoints of the researchers in
question.

You can't do that, so you dance and dance as fast as you can and
still you do not _answer_ my simple but relevant question.
Substantiate your claim that all of the abductees that any of
the aforementioned gentlemen have hypnotized, all agree with
their respective points of view.

It's simple Jimbo, either you admit that you have absolutely
nothing to back up the claim, or provide the total number of
Budd, David, and John's clients that you interviewed _before_
you publicly posted this _blatant_ and insulting lie about them.
Well can you? I don't want to hear all the extraneous crap you
are throwing at me. Just the answer to that one simple question.

 >>As opposed to Mortellaro or even yourself, I actually _know_
 >>these folks personally. I'm telling you that you're both dead
 >>wrong in your statements. Please tell me _how many_ of Budd,
 >>David's or John's clients you polled or interviewed.

 >I told you in another post. However I am certain you will get to
 >that. I would be interested in another poll. How many on this
 >List agree with Mack, Kevin and myself as opposed to your opine?
 >Not that I invite others in to this frayed loop, or is it a
 >thread? Whatever. But I'd be darned interested in a poll of
 >UpDates.

 >Hey, out there... in the void? Whaddya say? Takers?

Yeah "Void", are you listening? Jim's in trouble here, he cannot
possibly substantiate the outrageous claim that he has made and
now his shoe is firmly stuck in his mouth. Can any of you help
him to dislodge it please? Just point to the poll or study that
was made of Hopkins', Jacobs', and Mack's clients that
substantiates Jim's insulting claim about all these folks. A
collective group of individuals that represents many hundreds of
people.


Help Jim, he really needs it.

John Velez


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:28:13 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:37:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


Popcorn. In a microwavable bag. Buttery and delicious. A stark
contrast to the 'moments' which often lurk on UpDates. 'Moments'
cannot be ascribed to all, or even to most, but to a few
die-hard souls who perceive themselves to be experts on the
subject of UFOs and the abduction phenomenon. Some for, some
against.

An absolute truth is an indefectable truth. One which is purely
simple, so simple that anyone may comprehend. So sayeth my
friend Merriam.  Uh, we _are_  just friends.  So, having said
that, having defined the word, can anyone say that his or her
truth about the abduction experience is absolute?

Allow me the luxury of giving the complete definition, again, as
explained by (we're just friends) Merriam:

ab-so-lute (adjective)

[Middle English absolut, from Latin absolutus, from past participle
of  absolvere to set free, absolve]

First appeared 14th Century

  1 : free from imperfection : PERFECT

  2 : having no restriction, exception, or qualification <an ~
       requirement> <~  freedom>

  5 : POSITIVE, UNQUESTIONABLE <~ proof>

  8 : perfectly embodying the nature of a thing <~ truth>

Fascinating that this definition by (we're just friends) Merriam
should be so... so... absolute, eh? Now if I apply the
dictionary definition of absolute truth to my experiences as a
perceived abductee, I shall not be able to truthfully admit to
my memory being so correct as to be absolute. And had I been
regressed by hypnosis, I would have had further doubts beyond
that of the truth of them being absolute. I would have been
concerned over the possibility that I would have been led into
the memory.

So, John... whilst my memory is absolute (read: perfect) to my
mind, it is not so to my intellect. Whilst my memories ring true
to my own personal truthsense, they do not to my common sense.
That is to say, the truth of my experiences is not absolute.

Can anyone naysay me? May anyone not contest the possibility
that his or her memories are not absolute? That maybe, just
maybe, there is another explanation?  May you, John? I ask you!
Absolutely true (beyond any shadow of doubt)?

I interviewed about 30 abductees who were regressed and about
twice that number who were not regressed. I asked each one what
their opinion was concerning the nature of the alien agenda.
That is nearly 100 people. Not quite half were regressed. Some
by Budd. Some by David and some by Mack. A number were regressed
by therapists who had no formal opinion regarding the nature of
the alien agenda. Here is a preview... a general breakdown of
the results.

In your opinion, is the alien agenda good or evil?

Jacobs regressed clients   = 95% say "evil"
Hopkins' regressed clients = 95% not evil
Mack (too few to include here)
Balance of regressed abductees = 95% said they were not strongly
      committed either way to good or evil intent.

Those whom I interviewed who were not regressed largely were
just plain angry at the alien, no matter their agenda, which was
largely unknown anyway. Which is the category I occupy. I hate
them and what they've done. But I do not have any preconceived
notions about what the heck they are getting out of all this.

Now to my feeble, uneducated mind, this small sample survey has
great meaning. Statistically, the sampling is correct enough to
draw the conclusions I came upon.

On the matter of how strongly the abductees felt about their
memories, there was a definite bias in favor of those whose
memories were retrieved through recall. Those who were regressed
as a rule, felt that while their memories were real enough,
there was some concern over being led.

Draw you own conclusions. I've drawn mine.


Jim Mortellaro









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:45:41 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:39:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:25:45 EST
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>But _balsa_wood_?

 >>I can't help but feel there is a link with Roswell
 >>here.

 >Mac, read footnote 14 to chapter 15, f'pete's sake!


OK, gotcha.  Thanks!

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:46:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:14:03 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Kevin,

 >>You write:

 >>>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >>I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >>everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >>meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >>Mortelarro;

 >>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

Hi Kevin, hi All,

Kevin opines:

 >Actually, this is something of a red herring. I quoted from both
 >Mack and Jacobs, making the same point that Jim had made. It was
 >Mack who suggested that Hopkins, Jacobs, and Nyman pull from
 >their experiencers what they want to see. Mack said it to us
 >during a video taped interview and he said it to Bryant in his
 >book... as I mentioned before.

"Pulling from their experiencers what they want to see" has to
do with "leading" or "suggestion" Kevin. The "Docca" claims that
the experiencers themselves all share the same "take" (point of
view) as the researchers in question. Two different subjects.
You are talking about a "before" situation (where someone is
lead in some way) and the "Docca" is talking about an "after"
effect (people who have adopted or share the same point of
view/take) on the phenom as the researchers they consulted.

So,

...are we discussing Hopkins', Jacobs', and Mack's alleged
'leading' of their clients, or are we discussing Mortellaro's
unfounded claim that they are _all_ de facto in agreement with
the researchers in question "points of view?"

If anyone is introducing "red Herrings" it is the Randle Fish
Market! The Docca and myself are debating one thing, and _you_
are introducing another. Fish anyone?   ;)

 >In our research we used abductees who had been regressed by all
 >three... and those regressed by Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter and
 >several others including "He Who Shall Remain Nameless."

 >But once again, if you have an argument with the observation,
 >then please take it up with John Mack and David Jacobs as well.

I don't have any 'argument' with them. It is Mortellaro who is
making unfounded claims and insulting a large group of really
nice, bright, individuals with his insinuations. Now you chime
in with "they lead their clients." Yet neither one of you has
answered my simple and very straightforward question:

Show me the poll or study that shows that the clients of
Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack all share the same point of view as the
researchers in question.

Simple question. But try getting a straight answer around here!
You guys picked a bad time to mess with me. I'm in between web
jobs and I have a little _time_ for the List. Bring it on!
<screeching maniacal laughter>

Until I get a relevant response from _either_ of you on the
question at hand,

regards,


John Velez
Waiting

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                         Another Auroral Light Show?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:45:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:44:57 -0500
Subject: Another Auroral Light Show?


Hi everyone!

Thanks to another major eruption on the Sun which is sending
charged particles towards the Earth, observers of the night sky
who live in the mid-latitudes (eg. New York, Toronto, etc.) will
get yet another chance to see the aurora - nature's evening
light show - tonight and/or tomorrow night. The aurora or
"northern lights" ("southern lights" for those living in the
southern hemisphere) are frequently seen only in much more
northern (or southern) latitudes.

Although the phase of the Moon is past full and rises in the
east late in the evening, it will brighten the sky enough to
bleach out the light show after midnight.

If you are going out to have a look, find a dark place to
observe from and allow a few minutes for your eyes to get dark
adapted. Don't forget to let us know if you noticed something
out of the ordinary up there too. One reason, I believe, that
more UFO sightings are not made from urban areas is that people
do not frequently step out from their homes and look up to the
sky.

-----

<snip>

Official Space Weather Advisory issued by NOAA Space Environment
Center Boulder, Colorado, USA

SPACE WEATHER BULLETIN #01- 7
2001 November 04 at 04:44 p.m. MST (2001 November 04 2344 UT)

**** MAJOR SOLAR FLARE AND SOLAR RADIATION STORM ****

A major solar flare occurred at 9:20 am MST (1620 UTC) on 04
November. The resulting radio blackout reached the R3 level on
the NOAA scale. The flare was shortly followed by a strong solar
radiation storm which has reached the S3 level on the NOAA scale
and is continuing in progress at this time.

<snip>

-----


Nick Balaskas









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 14:52:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:49:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Felder


 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:12:50 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

<snip>

 >My "personal" problem with Mortellaro does not exist.

<LOL> Good one!!! And we all fell off the turnip truck
yesterday.


 >If you'll take note at the archives, I always "respond" to
 >whatever it happens to be that he is putting out publicly
 >regarding UFO abduction or abductees that has no
 > _proven_ basis in fact.

Hold the phone there, cowboy. "..proven basis in fact" when
talking about UFO abduction? Excuse me, I must have missed
something somewhere. Last time I checked, the question of UFO
abduction of humans as a physical, actually occurring reality
has _not_ been proven. If you have irrefutable evidence that
proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that UFO abduction of humans
is a physically occurring reality, please do whip it out. Show
me your evidence that _proves_ the _factual_ basis for your
claims of being a UFO abduction victim, and I will publicly and
profusely apologize to you, this List, and the UFO community as
a whole.

Whip out the evidence, Mr. Velez, that what you spout has a
_proven_basis_in_fact as opposed to Mr. Mortellaro's statements
being made up BS or whatever you think they are. Put it on the
table, let's all take a good look at it, and I will publicly
apologize for ever doubting your claims. Until you do that,
however, your claims, and your interpretations of your claims,
are no more valid than any other's.

Oh, and the ever-tiring "I am an abductee, I _know_ I am an
abductee, and I don't have to prove anything but you have to
believe me anyway" attitude don't cut the mustard.

As for the "abductee matching to the researcher", again I have
to agree with Mr. Randle. You got a problem with the
observation, take it up with those who made the observation -
Mack, Jacobs, etc.

 >If not, maybe you want to start another thread! You
 >can title it:

 >"John Velez's many colored cloak of abductee self-righteousness!"

I think "John Velez is Whining Again" would be more fitting :)

You might consider working on those people skills a bit, too.

Just a suggestion...

Bobbie



"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Gehrman

From: Eed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:26:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:53:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Gehrman


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:25:45 EST
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:13:10 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>But _balsa_wood_?

 >>I can't help but feel there is a link with Roswell here.

 >Mac, read footnote 14 to chapter 15, f'pete's sake!


Karl,

I've read footnote 14 and have a hard time understanding your
reasoning. I believe your point is the following: Metalite and
Fabrilite were being used experimentally by the US aircraft
industry, therefore this was what Schulgen was inferring and
thinking about when he requested information about "sandwich
construction & balsa wood".

What is your evidence that this is what he was referring to?
Your footnote needs more elaboration to be convincing. And why
is this information just a footnote if it's so important?

Also I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the
Schulgen memorandum that you've determined genuine. Do you
realize that the introduction to the memorandum and the
enclosure were typed on two different typewriters?

I agree with Mac. Who's to really say which document is
authentic; maybe neither one for that matter.

Could you reproduce the documents for the List? They are very
important!


Ed

P.S. I also think folks should buy 'Roswell: Inconvenient Facts
And The Will To Believe' and read it carefully. You certainly
have done some wonderful research.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 6

              Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:22:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 09:16:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There


 >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 03:15:03 -0500
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There


Considering it took humankind hundreds of thousands of years
just to recognize that the Earth orbited Sol and that unseen
microbes brought illness, is 50 years long enough to
definitively state that Earth is not being observed or studied
from afar?

As Hubble, etc. scan the universe are we not, in effect, an
alien species observing other solar systems or galaxies that may
harbor intelligent life?

As our newest Mars probe orbits, takes digital images, etc., are
we not an alien species visiting and observing? If there are
microbe life forms on Mars, are we not intelligent life
observing lesser life forms? If microbe life exists on Mars,
does it recognize the wreckage of our earlier "craft" scattered
among it?

Descartes stated, "I think, therefore I am." Rumor states that
God told Moses, "I am, that I am." Methinks that lack or refusal
of vision as to possibility and probability are as destructive
as political correctness taken to the extreme.

For "spies" to categorically state that "there are no aliens out
there" after only 50 years, shows failure to think, reason and
rationalize, because the methodologies used may not have been
the correct ones to acertain the truth. Besides, when does just
reading the "reports" give cause to solve?


Wendy Connors









                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                     William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:56:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:56:36 -0500
Subject: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

SierraTimes.com

11-6-1

"...God bless my family. I love my wife & children more than
life itself. Everything I do is for the future of all my
children. They may not understand why I have sacrificed so much,
why I am so dedicated to this work; but someday they will. I
want them to know they are the most important People in my life,
and how very, very much I love them..." - William Cooper

EAGER, AZ - William Cooper has been killed and an Apache County
sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said.

William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show
broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville,
which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns.

The deputy, whose name was being withheld by authorities, was
shot twice in the head while trying to arrest Cooper, a state
Department of Public Safety spokesman said today. Cooper was
killed by another officer.

Several deputies were attempting to arrest Cooper, who was armed
with a handgun, said Officer Steve Volden, a spokesman for the
DPS, which was investigating the shooting.

He said details of the shooting would be released later today.

The deputy was in critical condition at a Phoenix hospital early
today, Volden said.

Cooper was one of the most widely known Shortwave radio
broadcast, "the Hour of the Time", heard worldwide and on the
Internet. "William Cooper may be one of America's greatest
heroes and this story may be the biggest story in the history of
the world." said Mills Crenshaw, KTALK, Salt Lake City.

William Cooper was reared in an Air Force family. As a child he
lived in many different countries, graduating from Yamato High
School in Japan. Since he has traveled through or lived in many
different foreign countries Mr. Cooper has a world view much
different than most Americans.

William served with the Strategic Air Command, United States Air
Force. He held a secret clearance working on B-52 bombers,
KC-135 refueling aircraft, and Minuteman missiles. William
received his Honorable Discharge from the United States Air
Force in 1965.

William joined the United States Navy fulfilling a dream
previously frustrated by chronic motion sickness. He served
aboard the submarine USS Tiru (SS-416), USS Tombigbee (AOG-11),
Naval Support Activity Danang RVN, Naval Security and
Intelligence Camp Carter RVN, Danang Harbor Patrol RVN, Dong Ha
River Security Group RVN, USS Charles Berry (DE-1035),
Headquarters Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet, USS Oriskany
(CVA-34).

Cooper was a member of the Office of Naval Security and
Intelligence serving as a Harbor and River Patrol Boat Captain
at Danang and the Dong Ha River Security Group, Cua Viet,
Republic of Vietnam. William Cooper was awarded several medals
for his leadership and heroism during combat including two with
"V" for Valor.

He served on the Intelligence Briefing Team for the Commander In
Chief of the Pacific Fleet. William was the Petty Officer of the
Watch and designated KL-47 SPECAT operator in the CINCPACFLT
Command Center at Makalapa Hawaii. There he held a Top Secret,
Q, SI, security clearance.

William Cooper achieved the rank of First Class Petty Officer,
QM1, E- 6 after only 8 years of Naval service, a difficult task
in any branch of the United States military. William Cooper
received an Honorable Discharge from the United States Navy on
December 11, 1975.

William attended Long Beach City College where he picked up an
Associate of Science Degree in Photography. He founded the
Absolute Image Studio and Gallery of Fine Art Photography in
Long Beach, California.

William held the position of Executive Director of Adelphi
Business College, Pacific Coast Technical Institute, and
National Technical College. Mr. Cooper was the National
Marketing Coordinator for National Education and Software.

He produced several documentaries covering subjects such as the
Kennedy assassination and secret black projects that have built
flying disk shaped craft. William is an internationally
acclaimed radio personality broadcasting the Hour Of The Time on
WBCQ worldwide short-wave 7.415 MHz from 10 PM until 11 PM
Eastern Standard Time (0300 to 0400 UTC) Monday through Thursday
nights.

William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The book
has become the best selling underground book of all time. It is
read and promoted by word of mouth by People of all races,
religions, and nationalities.

Mr. Cooper is a world class lecturer, one of the few other than
superstars, monarchs, and Popes who have appeared at Wembly in
London. William Cooper has lectured for 10 years in every State.

William Cooper, Trustee, has founded for Harvest Trust, the CAJI
News Service, VERITAS national full size newspaper, The
Intelligence Service, Harvest Publications, and has helped over
700 low power FM affiliate stations get equipped and on the
air... including the station he managed as Trustee for the
Independence Foundation Trust, 101.1 FM Eagar, Arizona,
broadcasting to 7,000 people.

Under his leadership Harvest Trust ventured into the publishing
trade. The first book under the Harvest Trust imprint was
Oklahoma City: Day One by Michele Marie Moore... the definitive
classic on the Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah
Federal Building on April 19, 1995.

Shortly after the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal
building Rush Limbaugh read a White House memo on the air during
his broadcast which named William Cooper, "...the most dangerous
radio host in America". Mr. Cooper considers William Clinton's
pronouncement the greatest compliment that he has ever received.

William Cooper's FBI file, promulgated by the investigation
required by his security clearances while in military service,
was one of those unlawfully in possession of the White House in
what has become known as, "Filegate". Shortly after this
discovery President Clinton ordered all federal agencies to
begin investigation, persecution, and prosecution of Mr. Cooper
to shut him up.

After years of filing FOIA requests and researching the IRS
William Cooper brought suit against the IRS in Federal District
Court in Phoenix Arizona to force the IRS to produce proof of
jurisdiction and delegation of authority which the IRS was
unable to do. To short circuit Mr. Cooper's attempt to reveal
the true nature of the criminal IRS, and to carry out the orders
of the White House, the agency lied to a Grand Jury, not
allowing William Cooper to testify, and secured indictments
against Mr. Cooper and his wife Annie. This ploy successfully
stopped Mr. Cooper from continuing his suit against the criminal
IRS for fear of being arrested.

In 1998 VERITAS and Harvest Publications was sold to Hallmark
Creative Corporation along with the copyright and all rights to
all written material produced or ever to be produced by William
Cooper including Behold A Pale Horse and Oklahoma City: Day one.
Hallmark Creative Corporation has contracted to insure this
material is always available to the public.

In 1998 copyrights and all rights to all audio and video
material produced or ever to be produced by William Cooper was
sold to Excel Studios Corporation including the Hour Of The Time
broadcast. Excel Studios has contracted to insure this material
is always available to the public.

In March of 1999, Cooper William Sent his family out of the
United States for their security. He lived and worked alone with
his two dogs, one rooster, and one chicken.

-----

http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/nov/06/arwc110601.htm


William Cooper Update

Sierra Times 11.06.01


Details are still sketchy on what caused the Cooper shootout on
November 5, 2001, but a fax sent from the Apache County
Sheriff's office sheds some more light on the subject. William
Cooper was fatally wounded during a late night gunfight.
Contrary to what was reported earlier, it was not a SWAT raid,
but a simple confrontation between police and Cooper. One Apache
County deputy, Robert Martinez was critically wounded in the
exchange. Here's what we know so far:

According to the Sheriff's report, several deputies were
positioned outside the Cooper residence to serve a warrant for
Aggravated Assault and two counts of endangerment. Cooper had
stated numerous times in the past that he would not surrender to
law enforcement via his website and shortwave radio. Obviously,
law enforcement took him seriously. The showdown began at
approximately 12:15 pm local time.

After leaving his residence in his vehicle, the report states
that Cooper confronted plain clothed deputies a short distance
away. "As Cooper drove back to his residence, deputies attempted
to stop him using a fully marked patrol vehicle to block the
driveway. Cooper refused to stop or comply with verbal orders by
the deputies", according to the report.

Cooper then drove around the patrol car to evade the arrest, and
the report stated that he tried to run over one of the deputies
en route back to his residence. Cooper was then followed a short
distance to his residence where this time he was confronted by
uniformed deputies. "After refusing once again to comply with
the deputies orders, Cooper exited his vehicle and began running
toward the house, firing shots with a handgun toward the
deputies", the report said. No where in the report did it
mention that Cooper only had one leg - the other lost in combat
long ago. Cooper died on the scene.

When Deputy Martinez took a head shot, officers returned fire,
the report said. According to the Sheriff's office, "the surgery
on Martinez went well" , but the condition is still critical.
There was a positive history written up about Martinez in the
report, but nothing positive about Cooper, of course.

Cooper had made it known that he would take action against law
enforcement from years back stating, "trespassers will be shot
on discovery." He also denied violating any laws during that
period as well. Cooper has a history of harassing and
threatening local residents with deadly force, according to the
report. He was recently charge with aggravated assault and
endangerment, as well as wanted by the U.S. Marshall's Service
on unrelated felony charges. Cooper had spent the last month
challenging the government's claims about what caused the
destruction of the World Trade Center on September 11.

Most who knew of Cooper all state that he was a hard man to get
along with - if at all. His demeanor and attitude was
"unfriendly" at best. Although state-sponsored media called
Cooper a "national militia leader", no one has yet to come
forward who was under his command, nor has anyone to this point
come forward to claim his 'militia rank'. None of those who knew
Cooper and spoke to Sierra Times wanted to go on the record, but
the best statement was, "he was a son-of a bitch, but he was our
son-of-a bitch". The new Patriot Act of 2001 has many wondering
if the Cooper take down was just the beginning in silencing the
voices on opposition in the Country. "Are they just starting in
alphabetical order?" one person asked. Cooper was best known for
being the first to provide evidence of explosives being found
inside the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995,
including the type of explosive used.

According to his webmaster, "It appears at this time to be
totally unrelated to the disputes he had with the federal
government." There were no federal agents involved with the





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:48:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:01:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors


Is "balsa-like" the same as balsa in the definitive and
absolute?

Would an extraterrestrial or interdimensional life form have
building/fabrication materials that could be recognized by us in
their intent, or must E.T.'s &/or ID's building materials be
beyond description to pass homo sapien sapien's muster of
absolute definition as "alien"?

Since humankind clung to wood to traverse water and successfully
improved upon the log or reeds to build water faring
transportation over the course of history, is there a base
difference between the rowboat and the modern day steel ships?
Do they both not transport people/cargo from point A to point B
across bodies of water? Does not the soldier ant of the Amazon
not spare some leaves to be used as a transport across bodies of
water on their incessant march in the total path of destruction?


Wendy Connors









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:12:40 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:03:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro



 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:46:30 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:14:03 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>Hello Kevin,

 >>>You write:

 >>>>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>>>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>>>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >>>I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >>>everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >>>meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >>>Mortelarro;

 >>>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

 >Hi Kevin, hi All,

 >Kevin opines:

 >>Actually, this is something of a red herring. I quoted from both
 >>Mack and Jacobs, making the same point that Jim had made. It was
 >>Mack who suggested that Hopkins, Jacobs, and Nyman pull from
 >>their experiencers what they want to see. Mack said it to us
 >>during a video taped interview and he said it to Bryant in his
 >>book... as I mentioned before.

 >"Pulling from their experiencers what they want to see" has to
 >do with "leading" or "suggestion" Kevin. The "Docca" claims that
 >the experiencers themselves all share the same "take" (point of
 >view) as the researchers in question. Two different subjects.
 >You are talking about a "before" situation (where someone is
 >lead in some way) and the "Docca" is talking about an "after"
 >effect (people who have adopted or share the same point of
 >view/take) on the phenom as the researchers they consulted.

Hello Errol and List,

Actually John, you failed again to read my posts on this thread,
taking only what you wanted to make your point. Which is not the
point. Above you refer to before and after. I wrote, quite
clearly, that I was not certain which came first. Whether indeed
the researchers led or that their charges were of the same mind.
But I also wrote that I thought they were being led. Which was
your argument with me. Now you assume one side of the argument
only. Kevin and I are on the exact same frequency John.

 >So,

 >...are we discussing Hopkins', Jacobs', and Mack's alleged
 >'leading' of their clients, or are we discussing Mortellaro's
 >unfounded claim that they are _all_ de facto in agreement with
 >the researchers in question "points of view?"

Nothing is unfounded as you may have already read. I have my
data. And I shared some of it with you here. The rest ... well
... read the book.

 >If anyone is introducing "red Herrings" it is the Randle Fish
 >Market! The Docca and myself are debating one thing, and _you_
 >are introducing another. Fish anyone?   ;)

Go fish. Nothing is further from fact than your assumptions here.

 >>In our research we used abductees who had been regressed by all
 >>three... and those regressed by Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter and
 >>several others including "He Who Shall Remain Nameless."

 >>But once again, if you have an argument with the observation,
 >>then please take it up with John Mack and David Jacobs as well.

 >I don't have any 'argument' with them. It is Mortellaro who is
 >making unfounded claims and insulting a large group of really
 >nice, bright, individuals with his insinuations. Now you chime
 >in with "they lead their clients." Yet neither one of you has
 >answered my simple and very straightforward question:

OK. Before they were being made fools of and now they are
bright but insinuated. (sigh)

 >Show me the poll or study that shows that the clients of
 >Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack all share the same point of view as the
 >researchers in question.

I already showed you mine. Now show me yours.

 >Simple question. But try getting a straight answer around here!
 >You guys picked a bad time to mess with me. I'm in between web
 >jobs and I have a little _time_ for the List. Bring it on!
 ><screeching maniacal laughter>

Uh, wait. Was that meant to be satirical?  Thanks. There is a
God.

 >Until I get a relevant response from _either_ of you on the
 >question at hand,

You got the response, you just fail to acknowledge it.


Love and respect,

Jim and the voices in my head









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                       Re: Old German UFO? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 6 Nov 2001 06:51:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:06:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Old German UFO? - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:17:53 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Old German UFO?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear List Members,

 >Could somebody please tell me about this 'UFO'?
 >I'd love to see a translation, as my German is
 >virtually nil.

 >Thankyou,

 >Chris Aubeck

 >http://www.fulgura.de/inselfel.htm

Using SYSTRAN, the internet translator (which is imperfect), the
caption below the UFO drawing reads:

"The book IV cuts strangely (and remarkably) from the books I to
III, as it begins in such a way with a UFO sifting, how the
Canonen is geloeset uninterrupted and how at the end new Age
wisdom heraufwabert. Whether I find time, that times to
follow...? (with C G. Jung find I and andren thread, that the
Ausspinnen to be worth could.)"

Maybe someone who knows German can tranlate this more exactly,
but Systran gives the gist of it.

-Bill H









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:07:04 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:09:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle


 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:46:30 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:14:03 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:43:42 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:57:30 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

Good Morning, All -

 >>>Hello Kevin,

 >>>You write:

 >>>>The real point is the abduction researchers know what is
 >>>>happening but they fail to understand the significance. And
 >>>>that, I believe, is the point that Jim is making.

 >>>I find it amusing that Jim made his point so 'clearly' that
 >>>everybody else has to (interpret) "guess" as to what he may have
 >>>meant. I'm going to ask you the same thing as I asked
 >>>Mortelarro;

 >>>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

 >Hi Kevin, hi All,

 >Kevin opines:

 >>Actually, this is something of a red herring. I quoted from both
 >>Mack and Jacobs, making the same point that Jim had made. It was
 >>Mack who suggested that Hopkins, Jacobs, and Nyman pull from
 >>their experiencers what they want to see. Mack said it to us
 >>during a video taped interview and he said it to Bryant in his
 >>book... as I mentioned before.

 >"Pulling from their experiencers what they want to see" has to
 >do with "leading" or "suggestion" Kevin. The "Docca" claims that
 >the experiencers themselves all share the same "take" (point of
 >view) as the researchers in question. Two different subjects.
 >You are talking about a "before" situation (where someone is
 >lead in some way) and the "Docca" is talking about an "after"
 >effect (people who have adopted or share the same point of
 >view/take) on the phenom as the researchers they consulted.

 >So,

 >...are we discussing Hopkins', Jacobs', and Mack's alleged
 >'leading' of their clients, or are we discussing Mortellaro's
 >unfounded claim that they are _all_ de facto in agreement with
 >the researchers in question "points of view?"

Actually, it is the same side of the coin. If they are leading
their abductees, clients, subjects, experiencers, then we have
the first step into the allignment of them with those conducting
the research. I thought I had mentioned that CDB Bryan's
interview with Mack (page 270-71 hardback) in which Mack said,
"And there's another interesting dimension to this... which Budd
Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and I argue about all the time, which is
that I'm struck by the fact there seems to be a kind of matching
of the investigator with the experiencer. So what may be the
archetypal structure of an abduction to Dave Jacobs may not be
the uniform experience of, say, Joe Nyman or John Mack or
someone else. And the experiencers seem to pick out the
investigator who will fit their experience."

So, here is Mack saying, essentially, the same thing that Jim
has said, and that we saw in our research. Mack has said that
experiencers take on the archetypal structure of the
investigator doing the regression. He is not saying, nor am I
implying, that this is a universal, but it is an observation
that apparently has been made by Mack, Hopkins, and Jacobs and
is of enough importance that Mack has mentioned it to various
individuals.

And there are two points to be made here. One, this implies, to
some extent, leading the witness, and two, it implies that the
views of the researcher are given to the subject.

On page 25 of 'The Threat' (hardback), Jacobs discusses his
sessions with Pam, which, I think, makes the point once again.
Jacobs wrote, "I had over thirty sessions with Pam, and during
that time she has come to have a less romantic idea about what
has been happening to her. She was initially disappointed that
what she remembered under hypnosis were not the pleasant
experiences she had imagined, but she now accepts the reality of
what has been happening to her. She realized that neither
guardian angles nor the Pleiades have anything to do with her
experiences, and that she cannot manipulate time and reality."

In other words, Pam arrived at Jacobs' door believing that her
experiences were pleasant and might reflect her interaction with
what she saw as a guardian angel. After undergoing hypnosis with
Jacobs, she now realizes the threat and that the experiences
were not pleasant. She wasn't visited by New Age philosophers of
John Mack or cold, calculating scientists of Budd Hopkins, but
the alien invaders of David Jacobs... she came with one set of
beliefs and left with a different set which, matches, more
closely, the beliefs of David Jacobs.

So, through the interviews with Mack by Bryan, and by reading
Jacobs' book, we find that the researchers are agreeing with
what Jim has said here. That there is this matching of
experiencers with researchers.

 >If anyone is introducing "red Herrings" it is the Randle Fish
 >Market! The Docca and myself are debating one thing, and _you_
 >are introducing another. Fish anyone?   ;)

 >>In our research we used abductees who had been regressed by all
 >>three... and those regressed by Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter and
 >>several others including "He Who Shall Remain Nameless."

 >>But once again, if you have an argument with the observation,
 >>then please take it up with John Mack and David Jacobs as well.

 >I don't have any 'argument' with them. It is Mortellaro who is
 >making unfounded claims and insulting a large group of really
 >nice, bright, individuals with his insinuations. Now you chime
 >in with "they lead their clients." Yet neither one of you has
 >answered my simple and very straightforward question:

 >Show me the poll or study that shows that the clients of
 >Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack all share the same point of view as the
 >researchers in question.

But you see, it's not necessary to give you poll numbers when
the researchers you quote are saying the same thing. Mack has
said it and Jacobs has said it. So the studies you request can
be found in Bryan (in the chapter about Mack with the quotes on
page 270) and throughout Jacobs' THE THREAT.

 >Simple question. But try getting a straight answer around here!
 >You guys picked a bad time to mess with me. I'm in between web
 >jobs and I have a little _time_ for the List. Bring it on!
 ><screeching maniacal laughter>

 >Until I get a relevant response from _either_ of you on the
 >question at hand,

So, rather than burden you with numbers from our study, I'll
just point you at Mack and Jacobs. You could probably throw
Nyman and Hopkins into the mix since the four of them discuss
this and have differing points of view about it.

Or, another way of looking at this is that Jim has supplied you
with the specific poll numbers of his research and I have
supplied you with the studies from others. The question has been
asked and answered, more than once.


KRandle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:53:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:12:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow


 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:46:30 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

 >Hi Kevin, hi All,

 >Kevin opines:

 >>Actually, this is something of a red herring. I  quoted from both
 >>Mack and Jacobs, making the same point that Jim had  made. It was
 >>Mack who suggested that Hopkins, Jacobs, and Nyman pull from
 >>their experiencers what they want to see. Mack said it to us
 >>during a video taped interview and he said it to Bryant in his
 >>book... as I mentioned before.

I'd love to see a poll of abductees, as John outlines.

My unscientific opinion -- based just on hanging out with Budd's
people over the years -- is that they don't at all necessarily
share Budd's view. I've known several with pronounced
aliens-are-friendly/new age leanings.

As someone mentioned here, Eddie Bullard did indeed do a study
of investigator influence. He found that investigators didn't
influence the specifics of what abductees reported, which surely
is more important than whether abductees share the
investigators' views of the phenomenon. I don't know where this
can be found; very likely in a back issue of IUR. It's a great
shame that there's no published collection of Eddie's papers.

This critique of abduction researchers -- that they influence
the views of the abductees they work with -- is messed up, on
several counts.

First, as John points out, it's never been substantiated with
real data. It's purely an assumption, based (I'm guessing) on
remarks by a few abductees who've appeared in public.

Second, as Eddie Bullard showed, investigators don't appear to
have much influenced over the basic details of the experience,
as reported by abductees. If critics are going to quote
researchers about each other's influence -- Dave saying John
Mack sways his people, John saying that about Budd -- critics
also ought to quote the same researchers about the things their
abductees share. Both Budd and John have stressed that their
abductees report the same experiences (painful medical
procedures from John's people, spiritual epiphanies, or the
like, from Budd's). The investigators and abductees may simply
interpret them differently.

Third, if investigators do have some influence, even a strong
one, on how abductees think about abductions, why on earth would
that be strange or discreditable? Violin teachers very famously
have a very similar influence. So do singing teachers. If you're
an advanced professional student, you normally find yourself
studying with a very famous teacher, with pronounced views on
violin or vocal technique. You end up sharing those views. Or
else, if those views don't work for you, you leave -- which is
exactly what happens with some abducteees, who don't like the
views of the investigator they work with. An investigator could
easily influence the opinions of abductees, without manipulating
the details of their reports.

Greg Sandow









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:48:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:01:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors


Is "balsa-like" the same as balsa in the definitive and
absolute?

Would an extraterrestrial or interdimensional life form have
building/fabrication materials that could be recognized by us in
their intent, or must E.T.'s &/or ID's building materials be
beyond description to pass homo sapien sapien's muster of
absolute definition as "alien"?

Since humankind clung to wood to traverse water and successfully
improved upon the log or reeds to build water faring
transportation over the course of history, is there a base
difference between the rowboat and the modern day steel ships?
Do they both not transport people/cargo from point A to point B
across bodies of water? Does not the soldier ant of the Amazon
not spare some leaves to be used as a transport across bodies of
water on their incessant march in the total path of destruction?


Wendy Connors









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                    Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:13:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:15:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Maccabee


 >From: Eed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:26:47 -0800


 >>From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:25:45 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Also I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the
 >Schulgen memorandum that you've determined genuine. Do you
 >realize that the introduction to the memorandum and the
 >enclosure were typed on two different typewriters?


It is my recollection that the enclosure (inclosure), the EEI
(Essential Element of Information) was written/typed at Wright
Field whereas the introduction was written/typed at the Pentagon.
Note that Twining, in his Sep 23 letter, said that Wright Field
would supply the Essential Elements of Information.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                          Secrecy News -- 11/06/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:47:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:19:09 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/06/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 6, 2001


**      BUSH ORDER IMPEDES RELEASE OF PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS
**      INFORMATION ON DETAINED SUSPECTS SOUGHT
**      HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVES
**      MY RED INDIAN ISN'T COMING


BUSH ORDER IMPEDES RELEASE OF PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS

A new executive order could make it substantially more difficult
for the public to gain access to historically valuable
presidential records by requiring the consent of both the
incumbent President and the former President whose
Administration generated the records.

Earlier this year, the White House had blocked release of
records from the Reagan Administration that were supposed to
have become public under the Presidential Records Act.

Now the new executive order 13233, signed November 1, will
significantly increase the obstacles to disclosure of such
records, since it allows either the current President or the
former President -- or even the former President's family after
his death -- to veto disclosure.

The new order replaces the 1989 executive order 12667, which
also permitted a former President to request that records be
withheld, but reserved to the incumbent President the right to
decide whether or not to honor that request.

It should be noted that the new restrictions will apply only to
unclassified information, since classified records are exempt
from disclosure anyway, as are a myriad of other categories of
information that are protected by statute.

Since classified, privacy, proprietary and other forms of
information are already off the table, the new executive order
invites the suspicion that it is intended to shield embarrassing
information, a category for which an explicit exemption does not
exist.

But the actual import of the new order will not be fully clear
until it is applied in the months to come to the Reagan records
which still await processing.

The new executive order 13233 is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/11/eo-pra.html

The order was the subject of a rather testy exchange at the
White House press briefing on November 1.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/11/wh110101.html

"I don't see this as anything other than setting a set of
procedures that I believe is fair and reasonable," President
Bush said at a press availability on November 2:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/11/wh110201.html

Others disagree.  "This decree is not about protecting troops or
homeland security," the Los Angeles Times editorialized today.
"Rather, the administration's sweeping refusal to release any
documents from the Reagan era suggests a secrecy fetish."  See:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000088720nov06
.story

The House Government Reform Subcommittee on Government
Efficiency will hold a hearing on presidential records today.


INFORMATION ON DETAINED SUSPECTS SOUGHT

A coalition of civil liberties and other groups filed a Freedom
of Information Act request last week calling upon the Justice
Department to disclose information concerning the identities and
status of the more than 1,000 individuals who were arrested or
detained in the aftermath of the September 11 terrorist attacks.

"While certain aspects of the FBI investigation into the
terrorist attacks need to be secret, we do not live in a country
where the government can keep secret who they arrest, where they
are being held, or the charges against them," said Kate Martin
of the Center for National Security Studies (CNSS), who prepared
the request.

The October 29 FOIA request seeking disclosure of the
information is posted here:

http://www.aclu.org/congress/l102901a.html

An independent analysis by the Washington Post identified 235 of
the detainees and described the circumstances and purpose of
their detention.  See the November 4 article "A Deliberate
Strategy of Disruption":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36356-2001Nov3.ht
ml

Meanwhile, CNSS reports that the Justice Department has agreed
to expedite the pending FOIA request under the provision
relating to "matters of widespread and exceptional media
interest in which there exist possible questions about the
government's integrity which affect public confidence."


HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVES

The Bush Administration has inaugurated a new series of
Presidential Directives, designated Homeland Security
Presidential Directives, or HSPDs, that will "record and
communicate presidential decisions about the homeland security
policies of the United States."

Though other Presidential Directives are almost reflexively
withheld from disclosure, and released grudgingly if at all, the
first two HSPDs were published last week without hesitation,
although only in softcopy format.  See:

   http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/index.html#hspd


MY RED INDIAN ISN'T COMING

Toward the end of World War II, a young Jewish survivor named
Marcel Reich found himself working as a military censor for the
Polish army searching the mail for suspicious communications. As
he recently recalled:

        Dark formulations, calling for the censor, were found
        with particular frequency in the letters of female
        members of the army.  For instance: "My Red Indian
        isn't coming" or "I am very worried because there
        is no sign of the Chinese" or "All my efforts are
        in vain. Have you no idea how to get the thing
        moving?" After much effort the mystery was solved:
        these letters always concerned a missed period.
        Anyone might have thought that the greatest secret
        of the Polish army was menstruation.

        What I learned then was that institutions surrounded
        by a halo of secrecy owe their reputation to the
        legends spread about them or to those which they
        themselves have launched.  Once one comes to know
        them from the inside they are invariably
        disappointing.... I soon came to the conclusion
        that censorship work was not only stupid and
        boring but also totally unnecessary.

These observations appear in the book "The Author of Himself" by
Marcel Reich-Ranicki, newly translated from the German (p. 218).
It is a memoir of Reich's boyhood in Berlin, his wartime
experiences in the Warsaw ghetto (where as a music critic he
once reviewed a performance by a young ghetto violinist named
Edgar Aftergut) through his professional ascent to become
perhaps the preeminent literary critic in Germany today.

Rich in anecdote and high literary gossip, the book will appeal
to those with an affinity for German literature or an interest
in the fateful encounter of Germans and Jews.  See:

http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7110.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:05:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:25:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:24:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:12:50 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
 >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>><snip>

 >>>>My Lord man, can't you see why
 >>>>I'm always jumping on you with both feet?

 >>>I can't speak for Jim, but it seems pretty obvious to me why
 >>>you're always jumping on him. You insult the intelligence of the
 >>>rest of the List when you try to disguise your _personal_
 >>>problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro in the cloak of abductee
 >>>self-righteousness.

 >>Well Hello again Ms. Felder,

 >>This 'thread' between Mr. Mortellaro and myself is about his
 >>"claim" that all of the abductees that Hopkins, Jacobs, & Mack
 >>have hypnotized, collectively agree with the individual
 >>researchers viewpoints on the phenomenon.


 >Dear All, Errol,

 >Actually, this thread is not at all about any claim that _all_
 >the abductees that Budd, John and David have hypnotised
 >collectively agree with the individual researchers' view points.
 >That is _your_ contention. My contention is that as three
 >groups, they have differing viewpoints, generally. You've
 >already been asked pointed questions about this matter in
 >another post. I await your response withall.

I'll respond with your own statement. Let's see 'who' is making
'what' "contentions" eh.  "

 >Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >view over the alien abductors.

See Jim, as Alfalfa told Spanky; "You can fool some of the
people some of the time, but you can't fool Mom!"  ;)

It was _you_ not me that made those remarks.

I was "responding" to your inaccurate generalizations.
Generalizations that make the many -hundreds- of
people/abductees that you are referring to sound like mindless
drones without an original thought of their own among the lot.
"As if" they _all_ shared the same point of view as the
researcher they went to for help or information.

Just as it is _always_ wrong to make sweeping generalizations
like "all blacks are thus and so" or "All Latino's are thus and
so" you are _wrong_ to make the kind of broad-brush claim that
you have made above about such a _large_ group of individuals.

 >>I contend that he doesn't know what he's talking about because
 >>he has never known or interviewed enough of them to make such an
 >>outrageous and unfounded statement. Not just Mortellaro,
 >>_no_one_ has taken such a poll.

 >Wonderful then, as I have interviewed a large enough sampling of
 >each for my book. And of course, I don't tell you everything. I
 >hope you don't mind. There is no poll. Read David's book. Then
 >speak with his clients. Then do the same with John and Budd's
 >clients. A pattern will emerge. Clearly so.

You're kidding here right? Of course there is "no poll"! That's
what I've been saying to you over and over in this thread. Yet
in spite of the fact that a "poll" of Budd, David's and John's
clients has _never_ been conducted, you 'presume' to make the
statement you've made about them _anyway._

And I don't have to contact anybody Jim. I have known and spent
_years_ speaking privately with Budd, and David. I've got a
little information for you: For years I was curious about what
Budd himself actually thought of the phenomenon. Personal
thoughts that he has never published or revealed. It wasn't
until our relationship was three years old that he confided in
me his own personal thoughts on the subject. If you knew what
that 'opinion' really is; it would slam your pie hole shut. You
have _no clue_ as to how _wrong_ you are about, a. What Budd's
own thoughts are, and b. even less about what the abductees
think.  ;)

 >Further, it is not necessary to take a poll in order to have an
 >opinion. Shoot, if we had to do that, we'd be Japanese doing
 >consensus management and bowing low. I don't do bows. Domo
 >arrigato, Johnny San.

Finally! It only took four e-mail exchanges to get you to cop to
the fact that you are only expressing a _personal_ opinion and
not one that is based on either an actual "poll" of the people
in question or first hand knowledge. Now was that so hard?

That there are no Polls and that you are expressing uninformed
opinion is _precisely_ the point I've been trying to make all
along.

Look at all the arm twisting it took to get you to admit it!  ;)

 >I have _never_ referred to you as the "Egotistical and Paranoid
 >King of the J.... uh, Abductees." Never. Behind your back or
 >otherwise. Produce the juice. Royalty never impressed me anyway.
 >Divine right and all that snuff.

Not one but _two_ of the people that you correspond with
privately sent me copies of e-mails that you sent to them.
Tirades where you are going on about how "evil" I am, how I'm
just a "raving paranoiac", and that I fancy myself to be the
"King of the Abductees." Your words. Sound familiar?  Gimme a
break man.

I will not violate a confidence by publishing the names of the
individuals that sent me those "heads-up" notes. Maybe you ought
to "poll" the people that you make these kinds of "behind the
back" statements to to find out 'which two' of them did it. I'm
not going to rat them out in public. Shoot, they are the ones
that keep me 'in the know.'

Here's another little 'jolt' for you:

I not only have the original copies of those communications, I
sent copies of them to EBK when I first received them. <LOL>

See, it's a habit I have of sending him copies of the cowardly
flames that some people send to me privately. It's just one of
the ways I cover my own ass in case situations like this should
arise where someone like you goes "huh, what are you talking
about"? and tries to 'play dumb'. Although I don't think
'playing dumb' is that much of a stretch for you. More than once
I have been glad that I share that kind of stuff with someone
that I trust.

You're a _coward_ for not having the cohones to tell me to my
face. And even worse for doing it behind my back with people I
do not know personally. (And who do not really know me.) You
only compound the offensiveness of it all by acting (in public)
like you don't know _exactly_ what I'm talking about.

Just to put a 'cap' on all this, we have established the
following:

1. You made a statement that is not based on anything other than
your personal "opinion."

2. Your "sampling" of all the people that have worked with Budd,
David, and John consists of no more than thirty individuals.
(And I'm only taking your word on that number.)

3. The clients (Budd's) that you did meet demonstrated what you
yourself refer to as: an "impressive" diversity of points of
view.

4. In spite of the fact that you insist on saying that there is
a difference between the people Budd has hypnotized and the
people that attend his meetings, they are one and the same. Like
_all_ the contradictory statements that you have made, it too is
absurd. Budd's clients are Budd's clients, whether he has
hypnotized them or not. His "clients" are the ones who attend
the meetings.

You make sweeping statements about the personal beliefs of
literally hundreds of individuals that you do not know and have
never spoken to, and then you get annoyed when someone who
_knows_better_ calls you on it. What a guy.

Where do I come off:

Forget that you are speaking to John Velez the individual for a
moment. You're arguing with the former Webmaster of Budd's
Intruders Foundation. As such, and with all that experience
under my belt with the people you are referring to, I'm telling
you that you couldn't be more wrong when you paint all these
individuals with the same brush the way you do.

While you "may have" spoken to thirty of them, (I'll assume that
10 were Budd's 10 were David's and ten were John's.) Over a
period of many years I have spoken to, spent hours on end with,
and in some cases broken bread with, literally _hundreds_ of the
people in question. I dare say that my "opinion" which is based
on first hand _knowledge_ and gleaned from  -hundreds- of Budd's
clients, easily 'trumps' your thirty. If you think that thirty
people is (as you say) a "significant" enough number to justify
your outrageous claim, then how much more significant would my
own experienced opinion be about the 'Hundreds' of these people
I actually know?

In your estimation, and using your own yardstick, (that 30
people represents a "significant" sampling) would my opinion be
more or less significant than the one you express?

Think _before_ you speak in the future and we can avoid these
little head-butting sessions. I'm just tired of having to
'clean-up' after some the 'messes' you make on this very
_public_ List. I lost all patience with you after your
interference in the Carpenter business. Something that affected
_all_ abductees. But then, you have established a pattern of
saying things about abductees and researchers that ultimately
turn out to be completely inaccurate, and just plain wrong. That
book of yours is going to be a doozy I'm sure. And BTW,
_my_name_ or any reference to me better not appear _anywhere_ in
it. If you do, you can start packing your bags right now because
the new house, that cannon of a gun that you carry, and that
poopy and pishy puppy you talk about will all be mine.  :)

Nuff said, point made.


John Velez

Frmr. Webmaster, Budd Hopkins' Intruders Foundation

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:15:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Wilson


 >From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
 >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:28:02 -0800
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso
 >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:39:02 +0100

 >Dear Members of the List,

 >I have just received, here in France, the October issue of UFO
 >Magazine (the American one) and I want to recommand reading it,
 >if only for the article of Don Ecker's 'Honor Restored: The
 >De-Pflocked Facts About Philip Corso'.

<snip>

 >Greetings to the UFO UpDates List.

 >I just saw Mr. Gildas Bourdais' email on my Phil Corso article
 >in UFO Magazine, Volume 16, No. 5. Thank you Gildas for the kind
 >words.

 >For those who may not have seen this article, I include it here
 >on the UpDates List.

 >I also would recommend reading Dwight Schultz's book review on
 >Karl Pflock's Roswell book, 'Roswell Inconvenient Facts And The
 >Will To Believe', in the same issue.

 >'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

 >UFO Magazine October/November 2001
 >Volume 16 Number 05
 >Starting Page 36

 >Honor Restored: The "De-Pflocked" Facts About Philip Corso


 >by Don Ecker

Bravo 'UFO'!

I intended to post something to this List about the latest issue
of 'UFO' long before now. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the two
articles mentioned above - as well as the rest of this issue.

Dwight Schultz's book review on Karl Pflock's Roswell book,
'Roswell Inconvenient Facts And The Will To Believe', was
GREAT!

Keep up the good work -

K. Wilson









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                      'Abduction In My Life' - A Review

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:19:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:44:44 -0500
Subject: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review


'Abduction In My Life'
by Bruce S. Maccabee, Ph.D. � 2001

Reviewed by Katharina Wilson

[This review was recently published in the MUFON UFO Journal,
October 2001, Number 402.]


'Abduction In My Life' is a novel based on generally accepted
facts derived from years of abduction research from various
researchers. It is also a 'book within a book' and the book
'within' is definitely not fiction. 'Abduction In My Life' seems
to cry out for its own category and perhaps Nonfiction / Fiction
or 'Faction' might best describe it.

The novel is about a science fiction writer who is happily
married with one son. He is the person telling the story and
from here on, I will refer to him as the author. He is a
'virgin' to the UFO phenomenon and all that it encompasses. He
is completely oblivious to the fact that anything remotely
associated with the subject could ever be 'real.' As far as he
is concerned, it is a subject for 'crackpots."

All of that slowly begins to change when a friend tells the
author about a sighting of a red light he had. It occurred some
30 years prior on a cold Vermont night while he was working in a
sugar maple orchard with another man. After their sighting, the
men noticed that one of them was missing some clothing and,
well, there were other odd things that just did not seem
'right.'

The author tells his friend he will try to help him figure out
what happened. He decides that in order to help his friend, he
needs to understand what it is he is getting involved with so he
checks out a book at his local library. The book he checks out
is actually the nonfiction book you will read while reading the
novel - and - it is an extremely informative book!

He brings the book home, begins to read it and hides it from his
family while trying to finish it. While he reads the book you
get a clear picture of what this man thinks about the UFO
phenomenon. He has to force himself to read it and slams it
closed on occasion while cursing the author of the book, a man
named Mac Sargent, Ph.D. (Those of us 'in the know' think we
know who this man really is�)

This nonfiction book introduces the author (and the reader) to
the history of the UFO phenomenon. It covers BMI's (Battelle
Memorial Institute's) Special Report #14 and the proceeding
Status Reports of Project Stork. He learns about Projects Sign,
Grudge and Blue Book, Kenneth Arnold's sighting, the Condon
Report and much more. He learns about scientific skeptics like
J. Allen Hynek and debunkers like Dr. Donald Menzel. In short,
the nonfiction book he reads begins to slowly change his
attitude about people who say they have seen a UFO, and it helps
him to better help his friend who had the sighting nearly 30
years ago. It will be easy for a lot people who have studied the
UFO subject to look back and see themselves in this same
position some 10, 20 or even 30 years ago.

The author eventually finds contacts to help his friend and the
man who was with him when he saw the red light. He becomes more
and more involved, but still tries to reject some of the
information he feels forced to consider: The government and the
(Army) Air Force hid the truth from the American public. He
tries to rationalize this while he attempts to understand the
implications of the many detailed reports he has read. Just when
he thinks his mind has absorbed about all it can take; his wife
drops a 'bombshell' on him.

Because she discovers the book her husband has been hiding from
her, she feels it is 'okay' to mention a few things about her
past. Doing so leads the author's family on a journey of
self-discovery and forever changes their lives.


 From the book:


      "Whoa, baby," I said. "Things aren't that bad." And
      then I told a big lie. "It's not like the world is
      coming to an end." I knew it was a lie because the
      world, _our_ world was coming, _had come_ to an end.
      The future would not be like the past. I just sat
      there holding her to me. I couldn't think of anything
      else to do or anything profound to say so I just
      reassured her.


If the readers of this book choose it because they enjoy
fiction, they are in for a really big surprise, because even the
fictional portion of the book is based in fact. Speaking as
someone who has experienced this phenomenon firsthand, Maccabee
has definitely done his homework on the abduction aspects of the
phenomenon.

I'm not sure which book I actually enjoyed the most. Because I
have never reviewed fiction before and do not normally read
fiction, I found myself leaning towards enjoying the nonfiction
book more at times. When the nonfiction book ended however, the
fictional book really took off and I found myself getting more
into that part of the book.

The last two chapters of 'Abduction In My Life' are terrific. In
'Question Everything' Maccabee forces the reader to consider
some interesting concepts relating to spirituality, religious
beliefs, evolution and philosophy. There is also a discussion
about 'societal infrastructure' and how the ET presence could
affect human life one day. The Epilogue is a 'wrapping up' of
the novel.

Maccabee weaves the 'abduction novel based in fact' in very well
with the 'nonfiction history of the UFO phenomenon.' I learned a
great deal from the nonfiction book within this novel. It is a
great review for people interested in ufology and I came across
a lot of information I normally would not have read had it been
presented in another book that was only about UFO sightings.

This is probably what is most important about 'Abduction In My
Life.' If marketed properly, it will introduce people to certain
aspects of the UFO phenomenon who would not normally read a book
about abductions or UFO sightings only. They don't have to know
the novel is based in fact and they will learn a great deal
about how our government, the (Army) Air Force and the media
kept the public from learning the truth about UFOs for over
fifty years.

My main criticism about the book rest with the publisher and
editors. In my opinion, they did not do justice to Dr. Maccabee
by leaving out his biography. For a scientist who has done so
much for ufology, not to have his biography published in his
book is something I do not understand. Perhaps there were
reasons, but in this reviewer's opinion, it would have added a
great deal more credibility for the reader who is new to the
subject.

Maccabee, of course, has been active in UFO research since the
late 1960s when he joined NICAP. He is the author of about three
dozen technical articles and more than 100 UFO articles. He is
co- author of  "The Gulf Breeze Sightings," and is the author of
"The UFO/FBI Connection." He is the MUFON State director for
Maryland, and in 1979 led the establishment of the Fund for UFO
Research.

I highly recommend 'Abduction In My Life.'

You will learn a great deal by reading this book and you will
learn about a scientist who has been a friend to ufology for
many years. 'Abduction In My Life' has an index, a great
'Bibliography and Footnotes' section and a great price at
$15.00. It is a book you will enjoy even if you think you know
it all and it is a book that will make a great gift for friends
and family members who just aren't convinced that any of this is
real. Boy - are they in for a surprise!



To learn more about Bruce S. Maccabee, Ph.D., visit his
Web Site: http://brumac.8k.com/
(Contains UFO research articles)

Ordering Information:

'Abduction In My Life' by Dr. Bruce Maccabee can be ordered from
Wildflower Press, Post Office Box 1429, Columbus, NC 28722 or by
calling 800.366.0264 or by visiting

http://www.5thworld.com

Katharina Wilson is the author of "The Alien Jigsaw,' 'The Alien
Jigsaw Researcher's Supplement,' and a monograph, 'Project Open
Mind.' http://www.alienjigsaw.com

* * * * * *













   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                Re: Question for Stanton Friedman - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:49:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:48:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Question for Stanton Friedman - Friedman


 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:23:03 -0500
 >Subject: Question for Stanton Friedman
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Hello there, Mr. Friedman.

 >I tried getting through to you last night on the 10-28-01 Art
 >Bell show hosted by George Noory, but of course the lines were
 >jammed.

I have been travelling and have hundreds of Emails to go through.

 >I wanted to ask you how you resolve some contradictory
 >statements I've heard you make several times; in particular,
 >when you say in one breath (in paraphrase) :

 >"Everyone, especially people with clearances, knows how easy it
 >is to keep and maintain secrets."

 >and then in a later breath assert how the government can't keep
 >this secret (referring to the UFO/ET phenomenon), something like
 >how it's "leaking out all over the place", etc.

I haven't said the secret is leaking out all over the place.
People have asked me "why are there no leaks?" I have said there
have been leaks. There have been bits and pieces put forth.
General DuBose talked about what he knew, for example. But no
transcript and no tape. Military witnesses almost never have
copies of classified reports. Mr. Salas has talked at length
about his fascinating experiences in Montana. These can be called
leaks. So far we have two intelligence documents that were TOP
SECRET. Yet, the FBI said Army and AIr Force intelligence
agencies consider the subject TOP SECRET. Where are the rest of
the TS documents. The NSA, treating us like idiots has released,
they say, 156 old UFO documents. But on almost all the pages
White Out has been used to cover more than 90% of the words. This
a leak.....

 >So, the obvious question is:

 >Which secrets can and cannot the government maintain?

 >And if your answer is "knowledge of the existence of
 >extraterrestrial life visiting this planet", then why do you say
 >that, essentially, it's not a secret!?

I have not said it is essentially not a secret. I am saying that
a great deal of US government information has been kept secret
about ETs and of course many other subjects. It is really funny
how people who should know better proclaim that statements made
in Confidential or Secret documents i.e. the Twining Memo
somehow prove the non-existence of something which was TOP
SECRET. We know about many secrets because they were finally
released such as the launch by the NRL of the first Elint
satellite in 1960... first admitted in 1995. We don't know about
those secrets which have not been released. There are leaks and
there are secrets.

 >Seriously, I'm confused...

I suggest you read what I have actually written or hear what I
have actually said..... Paraphrasing won't do.


Stan Friedman










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                             W. M. Cooper Killed

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:26:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:53:47 -0500
Subject: W. M. Cooper Killed


To UFO UpDates List:

Some of you will recall William Milton Cooper who came onto the
UFO scene about 15 years ago and soon made himself one of the
most unscrupulous conspiracy theorists in the UFO field.

After several years he was being invited to give lectures for
considerable pay. He talked about the UFO/Kennedy/you-name-it
conspiracy. Anyone who didn't agree with him... even when he
changed his story... which he did (as it grew and grew)... was
_against_ him and part of the Conspiracy! He put it all into his
book, 'Behold A Pale Horse'... which more accurately should be
entitled 'Behind The Pale Horse'.

-----

Source: http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=11021

Militia leader killed, deputy wounded during attemped arrest


Associated Press/The Arizona Republic Nov. 06, 2001 12:20:00

EAGAR - A national leader of the militia movement has been
killed and an Apache County sheriff's deputy wounded in a
shootout, authorities said.

William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show
broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville,
which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns. He had
millions of listeners worldwide, including Timothy McVeigh.

The deputy, whose name was being withheld by authorities, was
shot twice in the head while trying to arrest Cooper, a state
Department of Public afety spokesman said today. Cooper was
killed by another officer.

Several deputies were attempting to arrest Cooper, who was armed
with a handgun, said Officer Steve Volden, a spokesman for the
DPS, which was investigating the shooting. He said details of
the shooting would be released later today.

The deputy was in critical condition at a Phoenix hospital early
today, Volden said.

Cooper was one of the most widely known prophets of the "patriot
movement," railing at the federal government and talking of
doomsday omens in his radio broadcast.

McVeigh, who was executed in May for the bombing of the federal
building in Oklahoma City, listened to Cooper's broadcasts for
inspiration, according to testimony by James Nichols, brother of
Oklahoma bombing co-defendant Terry Nichols during a 1996
pretrial hearing.

Like some other patriot leaders, Cooper refused to get a
driver's license or pay federal income taxes, saying he is
willing to risk getting ticketed and has found a legal way to
avoid the taxes.

The patriot movement grew during the 1990s, fed by a series of
news events - the siege of Randy Weaver in Idaho, the raid on
the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas and the signing of
gun-control laws.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:13:25 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:55:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies


 >From: Eed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:26:47 -0800

<snip>

 >Also I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the
 >Schulgen memorandum that you've determined genuine. Do you
 >realize that the introduction to the memorandum and the
 >enclosure were typed on two different typewriters?

 >I agree with Mac. Who's to really say which document is
 >authentic; maybe neither one for that matter.

Good point. I reason (after familiarizing myself with aircraft
state-of-the-art c. 1947) that the balsa reference probably does
in fact mean earthly, not Roswellian, technology.

When I thought the "balsa" reference was anomalous, I
immediately assumed that the spurious document (with the phrase
"or similar materials") might be a fake planted to muddy the
true originals of the original.

But since balsa was indeed in use, why bother? Making a
near-duplicate of the original would only serve to attract
attention in the long run.

After an initial period of confusion, I'm tending toward
Pflock's non-ET explanation. But I think both of these papers
are quite important; their history and provenance deserve more
attention.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

              Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 11/17/01

From: The Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:13:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 05:01:27 -0500
Subject: Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 11/17/01


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND, UFOs, AND THE PENTAGON
A PRESENTATION BY EDWARD REYNOLDS

Saturday, November 17, 2001

Edward Reynolds, in a long and distinguished career, has been,
among other things, a teacher, an engineer, and an Air Force
officer. (Note: As he wishes to retain his anonymity, 'Edward
Reynolds' is not his real name.)

Three decades ago Mr. Reynolds, then an Air Force Officer,
experienced an extraordinary UFO encounter while on duty at a
major Strategic Air Command (SAC) airbase. This was an incursion
of several unusually shaped craft moving only a few feet above
the ground in an area where SAC bombers were parked in full
wartime readiness, some with nuclear bombs aboard. Weapons were
fired at the UFOs, and major repercussions followed at the
highest military level. Ed Reynolds was personally involved in
the sighting, the gunfire, and the official investigation that
ensued.

In the mid-1980s, Budd Hopkins was introduced to Ed Reynolds by
Dr. J. Allen Hynek, director of the Center for UFO Studies, and
former scientific consultant to the Air Force on Unidentified
Flying Objects. Mr. Reynolds, whom both Hopkins and Dr. Hynek
regarded as a witness of the highest credibility, reported a
number of personal UFO experiences, of which this encounter at
the SAC base was perhaps the most remarkable. Hopkins has
continued his relationship with Ed Reynolds, exploring several
UFO abductions that he experienced in childhood as well as in
adulthood, and a warm friendship has followed.

The account that Mr. Reynolds will relate at the IF Seminar is
certain to be among the most remarkable and significant that we
have ever presented - especially as it demonstrates the methods
of Air Force cover-up of UFO incursions at its own most secure
airbases. Mr. Reynolds has never before discussed his experience
at public forum, and IF is particularly honored that he has
chosen to do so at our November seminar. He will show slides of
drawings he made of the objects that he encountered that night,
and, as time permits, will also discuss recent UFO abduction
recollections.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on November 17th at the meeting rooms
of A.R.E., on the 10th Floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York,
NY. The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students. Reservations must be made
by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first
come, first served basis. Payments must be made in advance to
secure the reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders
Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Only 50
reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:30 PM. Doors
open at 7:00 PM. There will be a half-hour intermission, during
which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A book
table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for sale
to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas, and theories. IF makes no specific
claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or
subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website:

Intruders Foundation Website: www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------

IF respects your e-mail privacy. To be removed from future IF
mailings, please send us a return e-mail with the word 'REMOVE'
in the subject heading.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                       William Cooper Dies In Gunfight

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 05:03:04 -0500
Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight


Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

               Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:45:38 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
about, then OR now? <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                        Re: Old German UFO? - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:29:51 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:54:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Old German UFO? - Aubeck


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 6 Nov 2001 06:51:31 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Old German UFO? - Hamilton


 >>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:17:53 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Old German UFO?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Dear List Members,

 >>Could somebody please tell me about this 'UFO'?
 >>I'd love to see a translation, as my German is
 >>virtually nil.


 >>http://www.fulgura.de/inselfel.htm

 >Using SYSTRAN, the internet translator (which is
 >imperfect), the caption below the UFO drawing reads:

<snip>

 >-Bill H

Dear Bill,

I find automatic translations of German and Dutch texts to be
pretty bad. Anyway, thanks for trying.

I think the relevant text is in the document at the top, but
you'd hav to be a German scholar to read that, I guess.

It seems to be dated 1728.

Anyone out there who can help?

Chris









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:22:43 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:40:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:05:02 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:24:19 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:12:50 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:12:37 -0600
 >>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>>Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:01:42 -0500
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:33 EST
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>><snip>

 >>>>>My Lord man, can't you see why
 >>>>>I'm always jumping on you with both feet?

 >>>>I can't speak for Jim, but it seems pretty obvious to me why
 >>>>you're always jumping on him. You insult the intelligence of the
 >>>>rest of the List when you try to disguise your _personal_
 >>>>problem_ with Mr. Mortellaro in the cloak of abductee
 >>>>self-righteousness.

 >>>Well Hello again Ms. Felder,

 >>>This 'thread' between Mr. Mortellaro and myself is about his
 >>>"claim" that all of the abductees that Hopkins, Jacobs, & Mack
 >>>have hypnotized, collectively agree with the individual
 >>>researchers viewpoints on the phenomenon.

 >>Dear All, Errol,

 >>Actually, this thread is not at all about any claim that _all_
 >>the abductees that Budd, John and David have hypnotised
 >>collectively agree with the individual researchers' view points.
 >>That is _your_ contention. My contention is that as three
 >>groups, they have differing viewpoints, generally. You've
 >>already been asked pointed questions about this matter in
 >>another post. I await your response withall.

 >I'll respond with your own statement. Let's see 'who' is making
 >'what' "contentions" eh.  "

 >>Having said all that, I find it fascinating that those regressed
 >>by each, each group, Budd's and Dave's, seem to share the same
 >>reasoning regarding the intentions of the alien abductors. Dr.
 >>Dave's clients share the opinion, generally, that the aliens are
 >>evil in their intent. Budd's groups shares another less benign
 >>view over the alien abductors.

 >See Jim, as Alfalfa told Spanky; "You can fool some of the
 >people some of the time, but you can't fool Mom!"  ;)

 >It was _you_ not me that made those remarks.

 >I was "responding" to your inaccurate generalizations.
 >Generalizations that make the many -hundreds- of
 >people/abductees that you are referring to sound like mindless
 >drones without an original thought of their own among the lot.
 >"As if" they _all_ shared the same point of view as the
 >researcher they went to for help or information.

 >Just as it is _always_ wrong to make sweeping generalizations
 >like "all blacks are thus and so" or "All Latino's are thus and
 >so" you are _wrong_ to make the kind of broad-brush claim that
 >you have made above about such a _large_ group of individuals.

 >>>I contend that he doesn't know what he's talking about because
 >>>he has never known or interviewed enough of them to make such an
 >>>outrageous and unfounded statement. Not just Mortellaro,
 >>>_no_one_ has taken such a poll.

 >>Wonderful then, as I have interviewed a large enough sampling of
 >>each for my book. And of course, I don't tell you everything. I
 >>hope you don't mind. There is no poll. Read David's book. Then
 >>speak with his clients. Then do the same with John and Budd's
 >>clients. A pattern will emerge. Clearly so.

 >You're kidding here right? Of course there is "no poll"! That's
 >what I've been saying to you over and over in this thread. Yet
 >in spite of the fact that a "poll" of Budd, David's and John's
 >clients has _never_ been conducted, you 'presume' to make the
 >statement you've made about them _anyway._


<snip>

Dear All, Errol,

Some day you will learn the truth about everything. A sort of
Unified Field Theory of 'what it is'.

In the interim, I shall stay with the subject at hand and the
debate on thread. To get down, dirty and personal on this List
is not only counter-productive, it is a waste of good bandwidth.
Errol is not the fool. Or he would have canned one of us long
ago.

The data which I've accumulalted is statistically correct
according to the standards of the manual for statistics and
quality control, a book which my father helped write. Whether
one agrees with it or not is a matter not of one's
openmindedness, but of one's ability to read and think.

Last, when all is said and done, and the debate has reached a
level of "well, das is alles, ain't no more to say..." then only
a child will go, "I'm gonna tell your daddy on you!" and stamp
off with only personal invectives as the argument.

No one here or anywhere else on this planet, had the absolute
truth. Not a one of us. And when it comes to matters of such
import as those which inject personal trauma, such as the
abduction phenomena, there is more reason to search for truth,
whatever it might be. To close one's mind is counter to the
integrity of the intellect.

And I presume that integrity is something you respect?

Good, then use it and can the personal juice. It tells only of
children who have not as yet learned to interact with one the
other.

Jim Mortellaro









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                      Re: W. M. Cooper Killed - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:10:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:42:06 -0500
Subject: Re: W. M. Cooper Killed - Sandow


 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:26:10 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: W. M. Cooper Killed
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >To UFO UpDates List:

 >Some of you will recall William Milton Cooper who came
 >onto the
 >UFO scene about 15 years ago and soon made himself one of the
 >most unscrupulous conspiracy theorists in the UFO field.

 >After several years he was being invited to give lectures for
 >considerable pay. He talked about the UFO/Kennedy/you-name-it
 >conspiracy. Anyone who didn't agree with him... even when he
 >changed his story... which he did (as it grew and grew)... was
 >_against_ him and part of the Conspiracy!

I saw Cooper speak at Hollywood High School in Los Angeles in
1989.

Two highlights. One of them was his claim that aliens influenced
the US to intervene militarily on the Communist side during the
Russian revolution. There are two small problems with that.
First, the US intervened on the anti-communist side (to be
precise, this was in the civil war that followed the revolution).
Second, Cooper himself said at another point in his talk that the
aliens arrived here in 1947. The Russian revolution and the
succeeding civil war were much earlier than that (1918 to 1921, I
believe).

Second highlight: During the question period, someone rose from
the audience to announce that the government was spying on the
lecture! He pointed to video cameras set up onstage. Cooper --
for once seeming utterly baffled -- replied that those were his
own cameras. A case of conspiracy thinking getting too crazy even
for Cooper.

Cooper got an ovation when he said the aliens were responsible
for gun control. It was quite an evening.

Greg Sandow









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:29:20 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:44:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Pflock


 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:13:28 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Eed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:26:47 -0800

 >>>From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:25:45 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Also I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the
 >>Schulgen memorandum that you've determined genuine. Do you
 >>realize that the introduction to the memorandum and the
 >>enclosure were typed on two different typewriters?

 >It is my recollection that the enclosure (inclosure), the EEI
 >(Essential Element of Information) was written/typed at Wright
 >Field whereas the introduction was written/typed at the Pentagon.
 >Note that Twining, in his Sep 23 letter, said that Wright Field
 >would supply the Essential Elements of Information.


Bruce And Friends,

I concur. This was and remains a common practice, tho'
typewriters no longer are involved, lol.


Cheers,

KARL








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:35:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:47:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:07:04 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Actually, it is the same side of the coin. If they are leading
 >their abductees, clients, subjects, experiencers, then we have
 >the first step into the allignment of them with those conducting
 >the research. I thought I had mentioned that CDB Bryan's
 >interview with Mack (page 270-71 hardback) in which Mack said,
 >"And there's another interesting dimension to this... which Budd
 >Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and I argue about all the time, which is
 >that I'm struck by the fact there seems to be a kind of matching
 >of the investigator with the experiencer. So what may be the
 >archetypal structure of an abduction to Dave Jacobs may not be
 >the uniform experience of, say, Joe Nyman or John Mack or
 >someone else. And the experiencers seem to pick out the
 >investigator who will fit their experience."


Is Mack talking about the alleged facts reported by the
abductees, or about the overall interpretation of the abduction?
What does he mean by "archetypal structure of an abduction"?

As I've already pointed out, Budd and John Mack - along with
abductees they've both worked with - agree that the details of
the reported experiences tend to be similar in both camps. What
differs is the interpretation. (More precisely, similar
experiences are reported in both camps.

I don't have Bryan's book with me as I write this, so I can't
check the reference. But this quote - at least as Kevin
reproduces it here - shows one problem that can arise when you
write about abductions without spending a lot of time talking to
the people you're studying. You might, no matter how careful you
try to be, put your own spin on something you read. You might
come to wrong conclusions, which could easily be corrected by
the people you're writing about.

Here's an additional problem. How do we know what experiences
Budd's and John Mack's abductees report? Both Budd and John have
written books, so that's one source of this information. But
it's not an adequate source for serious study. John, for
instance, may accept reports from abductees who say that they
have secret lives as aliens. So he puts things like that in his
books. Budd doesn't accept those reports, so he doesn't put them
in. But that doesn't mean he doesn't get them. I've long
thought, and have often said, that this is a failing in both
Budd's and Dave Jacobs's books. They don't show enough of the
raw material they work with.

That, though, is another issue. I'll repeat my main point -
that we can't learn what abductees actually report simply by
reading books by John Mack, Dave Jacobs, and Budd Hopkins. John
gets many reports of unpleasant medical procedures that he
doesn't print. Budd and Dave get many reports of new-age stuff
that they don't print. They don't try to hide this, at least in
my experience. They acknowledge it very freely. So some of the
differences you find in their writing are differences of
interpretation - what they believe in abductee reports, or what
they think is important. They're not necessarily differences in
what the abductees report.


 >And there are two points to be made here. One, this implies, to
 >some extent, leading the witness, and two, it implies that the
 >views of the researcher are given to the subject.

 >On page 25 of 'The Threat' (hardback), Jacobs discusses his
 >sessions with Pam, which, I think, makes the point once again.
 >Jacobs wrote, "I had over thirty sessions with Pam, and during
 >that time she has come to have a less romantic idea about what
 >has been happening to her. She was initially disappointed that
 >what she remembered under hypnosis were not the pleasant
 >experiences she had imagined, but she now accepts the reality of
 >what has been happening to her. She realized that neither
 >guardian angles nor the Pleiades have anything to do with her
 >experiences, and that she cannot manipulate time and reality."

 >In other words, Pam arrived at Jacobs' door believing that her
 >experiences were pleasant and might reflect her interaction with
 >what she saw as a guardian angel. After undergoing hypnosis with
 >Jacobs, she now realizes the threat and that the experiences
 >were not pleasant. She wasn't visited by New Age philosophers of
 >John Mack or cold, calculating scientists of Budd Hopkins, but
 >the alien invaders of David Jacobs... she came with one set of
 >beliefs and left with a different set which, matches, more
 >closely, the beliefs of David Jacobs.

But this doesn't prove that Dave was leading her. What happens
in this account is very common in other situations, where nobody
questions it. For instance, suppose a woman whose husband abuses
her goes into therapy. It's very common for abused women to
defend their abusers. "He really loves me." "He means well; he
just gets angry sometimes." "It's my own fault. I don't treat
him well enough."

Then, in the course of therapy or counselling, these women may
dramatically change their views. "That bastard abused me. I did
nothing to deserve that. Nobody deserves to be treated that
way." You could say that they're adopting their therapists'
views here, but because the therapists' view seems sensible -
and, above all, grounded in the facts - nobody objects.

Why is it different when Dave talks to an abductee about
abductions? The truth is that we don't know whether it's
different or not. Some of us just assume it is. Maybe the
abductee ("Pam" in this case) had obvious conflicts sticking out
all over her story - maybe she gave obvious indications that she
felt hurt, used, and angry, with these feelings coexisting next
to her belief that it was all for her own good. Maybe Dave just
brought the conflict to her attention, and let her draw her own
conclusions. That would be standard therapeutic practice in other
situations (not, of course, that Dave pretends to be a
therapist). I've seen Budd do exactly this with abductees he
works with.

I'm not saying we can prove Dave doesn't lead his abductees. I'm
only saying that the passage Kevin quotes doesn't prove that he
does lead them.


Greg Sandow









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                       Re: Psychological Trauma - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:07:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:49:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow
 >Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:12:41 -0500

 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:53:01 -0500

 >>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:46:30 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma

 >>>>Show me the poll or the interviews with a substantial group of
 >>>>either Budd, David, or John Mack's clients that substantiates
 >>>>these outrageous claims that they 'uniformly' all share the
 >>>>_same_ point of view as the individual researchers in question?

 >I'd love to see a poll of abductees, as John outlines.

 >My unscientific opinion -- based just on hanging out with Budd's
 >people over the years -- is that they don't at all necessarily
 >share Budd's view. I've known several with pronounced
 >aliens-are-friendly/new age leanings.

 >As someone mentioned here, Eddie Bullard did indeed do a study
 >of investigator influence. He found that investigators didn't
 >influence the specifics of what abductees reported, which surely
 >is more important than whether abductees share the
 >investigators' views of the phenomenon. I don't know where this
 >can be found; very likely in a back issue of IUR. It's a great
 >shame that there's no published collection of Eddie's papers.

Greg and Llist,

Bullard's report on investigator influence was published and is
on sale by the Fund for UFO Research.


- Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                          Filer's Files #45 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:49:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:23:42 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #45 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #45 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 7, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

A UFO wave has been reported in texas with over a dozen
sightings. UFOs were also spotted in Connecticut, New York,
Virginia, Florida, Tennessee, Wisconsin, North Dakota,
Oklahoma, Colorado, and Norway.

SPECTACULAR AURORA BOREALIS DISPLAYS

GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNINGS -- A powerful solar explosion and
plasma hurricane on November 4th, sparked an X-class solar
flare and hurled a bright coronal mass ejection toward Earth.
The expanding cloud triggered strong geomagnetic activity with
flourescent red, blue, and green skies when it swept past our
planet on November 6th at 8:50 PM. EST. Sky watchers
everywhere, even at middle latitudes where auroras are rarely
seen, should be alert for Northern Lights while geomagnetic
storms are underway. Observers as far south as central
California and Delaware have reported vivid shimmering Northern
Lights. For detailed information visit Space Weather at
http://www.spaceweather.com

NASA's MARS ODYSSEY SPACECRAFT

JPL -- The Odyssey Spacecraft has started taking dips into the
Martian atmosphere to get into position to map our neighboring
planet. The craft is aerobraking passing within 100 miles of
the surface and hoping to detect the atmosphere of Mars. The
Odyssey will move lower to about 60 miles from the surface by
January and is expected to maintain a 2 1/2-hour circular orbit
when the aerobraking is complete. New data is intended to map
the distribution of minerals and chemicals across the surface
and provide daily Martian weather reports. It also will seek
out frozen deposits of water that might help determine if life
ever existed on the Red Planet. Editor's Note: Insider data
indicates they already know that life exists on Mars and they
may start to reveal this data backed by the Odyssey findings.

CONNECTICUT BIZARRE MECHANICAL UFO OBSERVED

BRISTOL -- Resident reports UFO sighting - A Nicholas Drive
resident reported to police Sunday that he saw an unidentified
flying object about 1:00 AM Sunday, November 4, 2001, hovering
near the Douglas A. Beals Senior-Community Center. The resident
said that while he was walking his dog, he looked up and
something that looked like a bird with flapping wings -- but it
was the size of an ultra light airplane and produced "a
whirring, almost mechanical sound." There were no other reports
of anyone sighting the object. The Bristol Press / CT
Published: 11/5/01 Thanks to FarShores UFO News
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores farshores@canada.com.

NEW YORK FLYING TRIANGLE WITH FLAT EDGES

NEW YORK CITY -- It was a chrome like color, as big as a one
story building, maybe about 250-500 feet in the air, and it
glowed reddish black and left a whitish trail when it left on
October 15, 2001, at 2:00 PM. During this event, the object
changed colors three of four times, between reddish black, to a
very dark red. It sounded like a whistle at first, but became
silent and came on again. It was similar to Morse Code. I saw
at least a dozen lights on it that where various colors. I was
talking on my cell phone at the time to my wife, telling her
about this, and it was coming in kind of fuzzy. Then I heard a
noise coming from my cell phone, (Maybe a transmission) and
then it went dead a couple of seconds later. The noises I heard
from the phone could have been a language, but I could not
understand a word of it. After my phone went dead, the UFO left
a few seconds later.

POUGHKEEPSIE -- On October 13, 2001, this witness reports, "My
wife, myself and two friends where driving back from a haunted
hay ride at 12:45 PM saw a strange star. We were driving south
on the NY State Thruway on a very clear night. I opened the
sunroof and was looking at the stars when my wife said, "Look
at that really bright star." It was in the east and low on the
horizon and was moving. I asked my friend to pull over and got
a good look at the moving light. It was moving in odd
formations. So we thought it was a plane moving across the sky.
But after a minute or two it was still in the same spot, but
moving up then to the left, right, down, it would even dim then
become very bright again. Then move in circular motions, and
then dim out completely. Then BAM brighten up again. The shape
of this thing was a triangle and very bright. I don't know what
it was, but it was something and I hope I have the opportunity
to see it again. Thanks to Peter Davenport Direc! tor of NUFORC

VIRGINIA SPHERE SHAPED UFO

HARRISONBURG -- On October 15, 2001, the witness was standing
on his deck and noticed circular object off-white in color
traveling at supersonic speed. At 5:25 PM it was still
daylight, the circular object solid in appearance but without
any distinct markings was seen. At first the witness thought it
was a plane of some sort but then I noticed it didn't omit any
sound. The witness estimates that it was 3500 to 4000 feet
high, and 50 degrees off the horizon. It resembled the color of
an off-white cloud. The object was going northeast at
supersonic speed because it was out of sight in no time. When I
first noticed the object, it was about the size of a nickel or
quarter at arm's length. As it traveled, it rapidly decreased
in size until I lost it over the horizon. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

FLORIDA WEIRD OBJECT FLIES ABOVE MIAMI SKIES.

HIALEAH -- NUFORC reports the witness says, "I saw the object
over Miami on Saturday night, October 14, 2001, from 12:30 to
4:00 AM. The object appeared like a star but was zigzagging in
the night sky. When I looked through my binoculars, I noticed
that it appeared much like a jellyfish with two limbs and a
light source inside. I contacted a friend who lives ten miles
west of me and he confirmed seeing the object in the west. The
object would disappear behind the clouds. My family also
described it as "a jellyfish-like object with two legs and a
light inside." I thought it looked more like a frog with two
legs and with a light inside. We all agreed that it looked and
moved much like a kite would and not a weather balloon. How
could a kite fly well above the clouds? Thanks to NUFORC

TENNESSEE DAYLIGHT SILVER DISC.

NASHVILLE -- At 9:40 AM, on October 26, 2001, my wife and I
were traveling on I 24 and noticed two jets that appeared to be
heading toward each other (for a possible collision). One was
heading east and one heading west. Out of bewilderment, we
continued to observe the planes. After watching for
approximately two minutes, suddenly, a bright silver appearing
disc shaped object (the width of the jet stream itself)
appeared between the two planes and swooped into the jet stream
of the plane coming from the east and traveled the entire
length of that plane's stream in approximately 2-3 seconds and
disappeared. As soon as the object disappeared, both planes
veered away from their flight paths and turned to go in
opposite directions. Needless to say, in light of the attacks
on Washington and the World Trade Center, we assumed the planes
were military aircraft zeroing in on something picked up on
radar. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

WISCONSIN LIGHT FALLS STRAIGHT DOWN

WISCONSIN RAPIDS -- UFOWisconsin reports that Tony E. was
driving on Highway 13 on November 4, 2001, from Pittsville when
he witnessed a bright light, bigger than a falling star. It
moved faster than a falling star, coming straight down
perpendicular to the horizon beyond or over the city of
Wisconsin Rapids at 7:10 PM. I was so far away, that it
appeared to disappear behind some woods. Thanks to Jenny Hoppe
ICQ #950705 UFOWisconsin - http://www.ufowisconsin.com " Thanks
to jenny@ufowisconsin.com (Jenny Hoppe), UFOWisconsin
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_1104_wood.html
Jenny says, "Stop the planet, I wanna get off!"

MISSOURI STRANGE OBJECT ON TV

SAINT LOUIS -- Dave Arnold writes, "This morning, Nov. 6, 2001,
while viewing the news on KTVI Channel 2 St. Louis between 7 to
8:00 AM, I saw the following when cutting to a weather segment?
Behind the news anchor was a background video window (running
at this point) showing the St. Louis downtown dawn sky,
prerecorded as it was now 7:00 AM or later, looking east, which
was a beautiful collage of colors, when an object came into
view from the center-left of the screen and continued in a
straight line horizontally across the picture reaching just
beyond center of the screen left to right at which point the
video froze. The object appeared to be an elliptically shaped
ball of light, white in color, with trailing tail. It looked
like a teardrop on it's side. It traveled seemingly slow as it
took nearly two seconds to move from left to where it was
stopped. Anyone viewing this newscast, if they chanced to look
at this background video, could not have missed this. It seemed
! as though the video was frozen at just the moment I was
thinking "what the hell is that?" The image remained frozen and
onscreen for another 3 to 5 seconds before they moved on to the
next segment. I thought maybe you could verify this (or not)
with KTVI. PHANTOM911@prodigy.net (dave arnold)

NORTH DAKOTA STRANGE LIGHTS

Brian Vike reports that on October 31, 2001, he received a
report from a witness who was out for a midnight drive with
friends. Off to the east was the weirdest light at 12:02 AM. We
all saw it at one time, like it just appeared at once, and that
was why we noticed it together! It was going very slowly,
almost hovering at times. It had three colors of lights on it,
in a strange formation, not like regular airplane lights. It
was so mesmerizing, so we stopped the vehicle and got out to
stare at it. It kind of gave us the chills, but we couldn't
take our eyes off it. It hovered for a while, and moved again
slowly, up and down, then moved forward again. The lights
seemed to brighten up. It wasn't like any planes that I have
ever seen before. The sky was clear and we saw the full moon on
the other side of the sky. It was a beautiful night, and freaky
standing there watching this light formation with the Northern
Lights dancing behind it. We kept asking each other. "Wh! at is
it?" I prefer to think it was something NOT of this world. I
kept saying, "Well beam us up and let's get on with it!" Thanks
to Brian Vike UFO Field Investigator yogibear@bulkley.net HBCC
UFO Research, Box 1091 Houston, B.C.

OKLAHOMA GLOWING BALL

LAWTON -- Kari a 24 year old reports this past June, she would
sit outside her friend's house, because I love to look at the
stars. Around 10:00 PM, and I noticed to my left a bright
glowing ball of light, thinking it might be a flare from the
army base I really did not become startled at first, but then I
realized that the army base was to my right and no where near
the ball of light. Then the ball of light started to move, but
not falling down like a flare would but across the sky very
slowly. Then it just disappeared into thin air. I ran inside,
told my friend about it, and ran back outside. Fifteen minutes
later, it looked as if one of the stars were moving in the sky,
but it was not moving about like a satellite, but more random
like, kind of darting about the sky. I know I saw something.
Later my friend Moniqua, whose house I was staying at, said
that she was not surprised because she and her husband had a
weird experience. They were leaving late one night around! 10:00
PM, when they walked out the front door a flash of light
covered them, like it scanned right over them and then
disappeared. They said they walked back into the house and just
sat there for ten minutes before talking to one another. They
just did not know what to think. Thanks to Kari
kbteddybear@slic.com

TEXAS DOZENS OF UFO SIGHTINGS IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS

HOUSTON -- Robert Thompson who lives in the Willowbrook area
reports that on October 25, 2001, I was up at 1:30 AM and saw
what I believe was a UFO. It didn't have any lights on it, but
I was still able to see it very clearly traveling across the
sky. It was traveling west very fast and was oval. It was very
high in the sky. It was the size of a quarter held at arm's
length. I would put my hand on the Holy Bible and swear to you
that I saw what I said I saw. I don't know what it was.
However, it was big enough to see in the dark night sky, and it
truly frightened me. In addition "NO" it was not an airplane.
Thanks to RJThompson2078@ev1.net

HOUSTON -- Beau writes, "I want to report sightings for the
last four nights. I've seen unexplainable lights in the sky.
Both my wife and I have seen them, also on two nights a friend
saw them from another location five miles away. The first night
there was one about 30 degrees in the sky, and to the east of
me over Spring, Texas. We saw many light patterns from it with
all colors. It appeared to "get tall" then return to its
original size. Then it would hover from side to side and up and
down. We saw it for 40 minutes then went to bed, at 11:00 PM.
The second night we saw it again, 35 degrees up a little to the
south from previous night. I called my friend who saw it too.
Then he said he saw two and when I walked further away from
trees I saw the second as well. We watched it for 2.5 hours,
until 2:00 AM. The third night there was only one that I
observed for thirty minutes from 12:00 to 12:30 AM. The fourth
night there were three in a pattern like a check mark. ! They
took turns being "active." We watched from 7: 30 to 9:30 PM. My
friend saw them and my neighbor too. She had binoculars so I
could see the colors a little bit better. They were brilliant
colors of every shade, but mostly blue, purple, and green. I
went out again from 12:30 to 1:30 AM and the check mark shifted
and inversed, meaning the low point of checkmark was now the
high point. Last night was a full moon too, and these "devices"
still were plainly visible when the stars were not. We called
the local FOX weather desk; they reported no meteors or weather
balloons etc. These sightings in my opinion are definitely
mechanical in nature and not stars or planets. We were watching
something bizarre. Thanks to BEAU beauknowz@yahoo.com.

ADKINS -- We were standing outside on my front porch on October
14, 2001, when one friend noticed a bright light moving. He
first thought it was a star, but it began to move erratically
at 6:00 AM. He pointed out that it was unusually bright and had
an odd shape. We began to watch as the craft came closer
towards us. It was moving slow and seemed to be dipping and
rising. We grabbed our binoculars; we noticed it had a red
light around a bright white light. I thought it was two red
lights, one on top and bottom, while my friend saw red on
bottom and blue trailing. Two of us saw a blue slow blinking
light heading towards the main craft. When it got near the
craft, it suddenly headed straight down, leaving a blue tail
like that of a comet. We watched for about two hours until
dawn, when we could no longer see it.

HUNTSVILLE -- I'm part of a marching band and we're from
Houston. We went to a competition in Huntsville October 28,
2001, and for our lunch break we headed back to the bus from
the stadium and we saw a whole bunch of flying white things. At
first we thought they were birds but every 3 seconds they would
disappear and then come back, and then disappear and come back,
repeatedly. It looked like a school of fishes, but in the sky.
There were two groups of them. The whole band saw it.

AUSTIN -- On October 25, 2001, there was a firework like flash
with a lighted point hitting another and creating a short spark
shower. It then disappears. NUFORC Note: We believe the date of
the incident might be October 31, 2001.

BUNA AND DEWEYVILLE -- Several friends and I saw a slow or
nonmoving object almost due east from my house on October 25,
2001, at 1:30 AM. It was flying at about 10 to 20,000 feet
high, with a constant, very bright white light and alternating
flashing blue, red, green, and maybe purple color flashing.
Sometimes two or more colors could be seen at once. The object
remained in its position for 30 to 40 minutes and seemed to
move up in elevation very slowly. There was no lateral movement
seen.

SAN ANTONIO -- Last Friday night, at October 18, 2001, my wife
and I traveled back to San Antonio from Victoria, Texas after a
High school game. My daughters are on the dance team and their
buses were unloading at 1:30 AM. I was talking to a friend of
mine as we were standing by his truck, there were low streak
looking clouds above us. We were less than a 1/4-mile from
downtown San Antonio. We happened to be looking up for a moment
and saw a turquoise luminous cigar shaped object streak across
the sky. It was as if a neon light has turned on for a moment
and streaked across half the sky above us, then turns off then
back on again. This object was cloud high and confounded the
two of us. We both saw it at the same time but could not say
what it was. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com.

COLORADO LIGHTS

VAIL -- I hesitate to call what I saw a "UFO" but it is
unidentified. This morning, October 31, 2001, at around 6:15
AM, I stepped outside of my condo located in Avon just outside
of Vail. We are located on a small lake, and there are no real
obstructions around me. The Sun had not yet broken the skyline,
we are at 7500 feet altitude, surrounded by mountains that
reach above 11,000 feet, but we are not "closed in." I saw a
VERY bright light in the eastern sky that at first I thought
was a morning star, except that the horizon was already lit up
from the Sun. The bright light was brighter than any star or
planet that I have observed in the morning sky before. It was
located at approx. 60 degrees above horizon, if the horizon
were flat. Above it and to the left was another light, with the
intensity of perhaps a star or planet. They appeared to be far
away, but not "far" as in the typical skyline. Reflections were
ruled out because the objects reflected toward dark (west! ) not
toward the light source (Sun). Neither object moved, so I
assumed they were stars. My husband can verify. Just about then
the clouds from the west were moving in, and our view was
obscured. For a moment or so I saw them again, about 5 minutes
later, and the sky was already brightening up for sunrise. I
have observed skies all my life. I was an air traffic
controller in the military and use to seeing all kinds of
lights, planes, and "spook" helicopters, (such as the Friday
night right after the tragic events of Sept 11th when nothing
else was flying).

Editor's Note: Mercury continues its fine appearance near Venus
low in the East. Saturn is near the moon. They might have been
too low for you to see.

ARIZONA FLYING TRIANGLE

PHOENIX -- On October 25, 2001, myself and another individual
witnessed a flying triangular shaped craft flying about 1000
feet at a high rate of speed at 10:20 PM. It had no lights
coming from it and it seemed that the ambient light from the
city was all that made it visible. It quickly flew in and out
of view, flying straight south and made no sound. It had 5 or 7
white orbs on the under side in an arrow head shape consistent
with its direction of flight. One half of each of the orbs
protruded from the crafts dark, hardly visible fuselage. It
appeared translucent, 12 to 20 feet wide, and 15 to 23 feet
long. There was nothing in the objects flight path to obtain a
good perspective. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

CANADA METALLURGY

TORONTO -- Nick Balaskas writes, "The metallurgy building just
south of University of Toronto's Convocation Hall where you
spoke at the Toronto engagement of 'The Disclosure Project'
houses some very unusual metals known as shape memory alloys."
These unusual metals can be severely deformed into various
shapes and then when heated will return to their original
shapes. These very specialized metals are now being studied at
more metallurgy research labs. Some of these same metals and
their properties were demonstrated to an amazed public at a
recent University of Toronto open house. One application of
such metal has already been used in eyeglass frames which
return to their original shape (thanks to Roswell UFO crash
technology)? After one sits on them by accident. Thanks to Nick
Balaskas

P.S. The maximum speed limit on Toronto highways is 100 (or 160
for Americans at the current exchange rate).

NORWAY LUMINOUS PHENOMENA

UFO Norway is picking up strange lights on their video cameras.
Check out
http://www.weather-hotography.com/Atmospheric_Optics/photo_gall
ery.html for some very nice photos of various luminous
phenomena in "our" atmosphere. The Norwegian telescope camera
seems to have captured a flying object near the Moon. Thanks to
Ole Jonny Brnne UFO-Norway nikolaos@YorkU.CA (nikos) See:
http://home.online.no/~gegiha/bilder/fenomen_s.jpg.

HOW WINSTON CHURCHILL CHASED FLYING SAUCERS

LONDON -- The Observer By Paul Harris states, Scientists and
generals drew up a top secret report on Unidentified Flying
Objects and then decided to cover up a wave of rumors and
sightings that swept Britain in the 1950s. The Ministry of
Defense denied the existence of the UFO report, written in 1951
and later used to brief Prime Minister Winston Churchill, for
almost 50 years. But UFO historians Andy Robert and David
Clarke have recently unearthed the six-page document as they
researched a book on UFOs and the Cold War. The report has been
a 'Holy Grail' of British 'Ufology' and details the conclusions
of a shadowy panel called the Working Party on Flying Saucers.
This group was the idea of Sir Henry Tizard, one of Churchill's
most trusted scientific advisers during World War II and a key
figure behind the development of radar. But anyone looking for
an elusive 'X-file' that confirms the existence of aliens will
be disappointed. The report concludes that all sightings w! ere
explainable by natural events, such as the weather or meteors,
or were of normal aircraft. But it does speak volumes about the
scale of paranoia in Britain at the start of the Cold War. From
1950 onwards, hundreds of UFO sightings were reported across
Britain and were regular front-page news. Leading public
figures, including Lord Louis Mountbatten, came out with their
belief that aliens were visiting Earth. The phenomenon
terrified the top brass on both sides of the Atlantic. Generals
were worried that reports of flying saucers could be used by
the Soviet Union to disguise an earthly attack or that the
sightings were giving the Russians a clue that Britain's radar
network was faulty and easy to penetrate - which was actually
true but unknown within the Soviet bloc. 'This was a time of
great paranoia and fear. The Government took a decision to
throw a blanket over the UFO scare and say as little as
possible about it,' said Clarke. 'There certainly was a
cover-up, b! ut what was being covered up was Cold War paranoia
and our fears over our radar system.

It was nothing to do with aliens. Despite the official silence,
the UFO scares did not die down. In 1952, Churchill fired off a
memo to his advisers in the wake of fresh UFO sightings in the
United States. 'What does all this stuff about flying saucers
amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?' Churchill
wrote. Tizard's report was then used to brief the Prime
Minister on the perceived lack of real threat from UFOs in
August of that year. A few months later an order went out
expressly banning all RAF personnel from discussing sightings
with anyone not from the military. In trying to underplay the
sightings, Britain was following the lead of the United States,
which had conducted several studies into its own UFO sightings
and adopted a policy of official secrecy. When the British
report was presented, a top CIA scientist traveled over to the
meeting to make sure the conclusions of America's closest ally
fitted in. (snip) Thanks to farshores@canada.com, The London
Observer Published: 10/ 21/01

THE LOS ALAMOS CONNECTION TO ROSWELL CRASH

James Parsons writes in the Star Beacon, "Comes now a story out
of Roswell and Los Alamos which may explain the three flights
made from Roswell Army Air Field to Los Alamos on July 9, 1947,
a few days after the crash. This story is from Carol Syska,
former director of the UFO Museum at Roswell during 1999 and
most of 2000. Carol was a group secretary and division budget
director at Los Alamos for almost 30 years. She retired in 1988
and moved to Roswell, N.M., not far from the town where she was
born and raised. Carol first heard of UFOs when living in
California in the early 1950s, resulting in an interest in UFOs
in general. One day at Los Alamos, she read that a report
containing information about UFOs was available in the Lab
library. This sounded interesting to Carol. She ordered the
report. She read this booklet titled, Project Blue Book, which
contained some comments about wreckage from a crashed vehicle
being sent for testing to Los Alamos. At the time (1962),! Carol
worked at the Lab with the NonDestructive Test Group (NDT). Her
boss, a senior scientist, was head of NDT and had been with the
Lab since the beginning of the Manhattan Project. If testing
had been done on crash debris, Carol's boss would know about
the tests and the truth of the crash at Roswell. Carol went to
the man's office and showed the report to him. She asked, "Is
this true?" Carol's boss, in a business-like manner, replied,
"What is the level of your security clearance?" Carol said,
"Sir, you know as well as I do what it is." (Carol told me that
at the time she held a Q clearance. A Q clearance is a very
high National Security clearance.) Carol's boss, after a pause,
said, "Well, do you have the need to know?" Carol said, "Guess
not," and moved to the door. Carol's boss said, "Just a
minute." After another pause, he added, "I would advise you to
read everything you ever see about this subject." Thanks to
James Parsons Nov. Star Beacon full story at!
http://earthstar.tripod.com/TSB_dir/LosAlamos.html

WILLIAM COOPER -- I regret to report the death of William
Cooper who apparently died during a gun fight with police. He
was the author of "Behold A Pale Horse." He told me how he had
observed a UFO come out of the Pacific Ocean and later return
after it flew over his submarine. Please pray for him, his
family and the policemen.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO photographs
available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy
Commander Graham Bethune. $10.00. Send check or money order to
G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055. CD OF
FILER'S FILES for the last four years 1997 through 2000 is
available for $25.00. Both for $30.00.

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

              Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:17:42 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:27:58 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600


 >>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >>self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >>popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >>secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >>extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >>world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >>aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >>UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >>and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >>truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >>worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >>from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

 >...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
 >about, then OR now? <g>.


Nuttin' Honey. Nuttin' at all. Certainly nutting to do with the
reality of life in this world! Why, everything's just dory
hunky, eh?

Paranoia ... according to (we're just friends) Merriam ...


First appeared circa 1811

  1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions
of persecution or grandeur usu. without hallucinations

  2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward
excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of
others

  -- para-noi-ac also para-n

To be paranoid over governement is one thing. But as I
understand it, the man was never paranoid when it came to his
friends, except his perceived CIA handler. Who, disguised as a
mild mannered reporter for a major metropolitan newspaper...
etc., etc.

And you will _never_ guess who his CIA handler was. The great J.
A. Heineken himself.

Docca Morty










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:31:35 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Maccabee


The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should be
checked. I presume what follows is what Cooper told someone
(before he died, obviously). I know from personal experience
(and others can support my claim) that Cooper made up a lot of
stuff regarding UFOs.

---

William Cooper was reared in an Air Force family. As a child he
lived in many different countries, graduating from Yamato High
School in Japan. Since he has traveled through or lived in many
different foreign countries Mr. Cooper has a world view much
different than most Americans.

William served with the Strategic Air Command, United States Air
Force. He held a secret clearance working on B-52 bombers,
KC-135 refueling aircraft, and Minuteman missiles. William
received his Honorable Discharge from the United States Air
Force in 1965.

William joined the United States Navy fulfilling a dream
previously frustrated by chronic motion sickness. He served
aboard the submarine USS Tiru (SS-416), USS Tombigbee (AOG-11),
Naval Support Activity Danang RVN, Naval Security and
Intelligence Camp Carter RVN, Danang Harbor Patrol RVN, Dong Ha
River Security Group RVN, USS Charles Berry (DE-1035),
Headquarters Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet, USS Oriskany
(CVA-34).

Cooper was a member of the Office of Naval Security and
Intelligence serving as a Harbor and River Patrol Boat Captain
at Danang and the Dong Ha River Security Group, Cua Viet,
Republic of Vietnam. William Cooper was awarded several medals
for his leadership and heroism during combat including two with
"V" for Valor.

He served on the Intelligence Briefing Team for the Commander In
Chief of the Pacific Fleet. William was the Petty Officer of the
Watch and designated KL-47 SPECAT operator in the CINCPACFLT
Command Center at Makalapa Hawaii. There he held a Top Secret,
Q, SI, security clearance.

William Cooper achieved the rank of First Class Petty Officer,
QM1, E- 6 after only 8 years of Naval service, a difficult task
in any branch of the United States military. William Cooper
received an Honorable Discharge from the United States Navy on
December 11, 1975.

William attended Long Beach City College where he picked up an
Associate of Science Degree in Photography. He founded the
Absolute Image Studio and Gallery of Fine Art Photography in
Long Beach, California.

William held the position of Executive Director of Adelphi
Business College, Pacific Coast Technical Institute, and
National Technical College. Mr. Cooper was the National
Marketing Coordinator for National Education and Software.

He produced several documentaries covering subjects such as the
Kennedy assassination and secret black projects that have built
flying disk shaped craft. William is an internationally
acclaimed radio personality broadcasting the Hour Of The Time on
WBCQ worldwide short-wave 7.415 MHz from 10 PM until 11 PM
ights.

William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The book
has become the best selling underground book of all time. It is
read and promoted by word of mouth by People of all races,
religions, and nationalities.

Mr. Cooper is a world class lecturer, one of the few other than
superstars, monarchs, and Popes who have appeared at Wembly in
London. William Cooper has lectured for 10 years in every State.

---











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                 Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:22:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:35:19 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >>self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >>popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >>secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >>extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >>world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >>aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >>UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >>and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >>truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >>worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >>from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

 >...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
 >about, then OR now? <g>.

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Hi Alfred,

There is a very real difference between honest and intelligent
dissent and the lunacy (certifiable) that Cooper was responsible
for spreading around. Let me share a little story with you, if I
may, just to illustrate my point.

About four years ago Budd Hopkins, Greg Sandow and myself
drove out to New Jersey to speak at an annual conference
that is held there. It's a two + hour drive. On the way Budd
played a tape for us that was taken from his phone messaging
machine. It contained a series of long distance telephone
messages that old 'Wild Bill' Cooper had left for Budd.

Alfred, the _threats_ and the language he used to issue those
threats was enough to send Budd to the police to seek advice as
to how to handle the situation. Cooper was a certified looney.
And, as has been borne out by his shooting of this poor law
enforcement officer (in the head - twice!) a very dangerous nut
as well. I have to tell you that just sitting in the car
listening to his voice as he ranted and raved at Budd sent
chills up my spine. It was spooky to me even as a third party,
witnessing the depth of his insanity.

I know you man. I know where you are coming from with your
remark above. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you that
there is _plenty_ to be concerned about government-wise. But you
are speaking 'out of turn' or more accurately, 'within the wrong
context' by making your comment in any thread connected to this
mad-man.

He was not only crazy, but he was dangerous Alfred. Maybe you
ought to express your views in a separate thread. Within the
context of this thread it only comes off as 'supportive' of this
maniac's point of view. And I'm certain that was not your
intention.


Warm regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:19:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:38:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Velez


 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:19:36 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review

 >'Abduction In My Life'
 >by Bruce S. Maccabee, Ph.D. � 2001

 >Reviewed by Katharina Wilson

 >[This review was recently published in the MUFON UFO Journal,
 >October 2001, Number 402.]

 >'Abduction In My Life' is a novel based on generally accepted
 >facts derived from years of abduction research from various
 >researchers. It is also a 'book within a book' and the book
 >'within' is definitely not fiction. 'Abduction In My Life' seems
 >to cry out for its own category and perhaps Nonfiction / Fiction
 >or 'Faction' might best describe it.

Hi Kat, hi Bruce, All,

Ok, you've got my nose open! I ordered and read Bruce's 'The
Real X-files' (FBI files) book before it was published and I was
not only impressed with it, I loved it. No question that Bruce
is an informative (educational) and entertaining read on just
about anything ufological.

I will order the new book immediately and give it a read. Bruce,
you asked me if I had read it yet, and in the heat of trying to
get out some bread & butter jobs and participating in a couple
of threads, I never had the opportunity to respond. I promise
that as soon as I finish reading your latest, I'll post my
impressions to the List. Judging by Katharina's review (someone
whose opinion I have always trusted and valued) I'm sure I'll
not only enjoy it, but as with your FBI files book, learn a heap
of new stuff along the way.

Thanks for the review Kat!  ;)

Warmest regards to you both,

John Velez

                      A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                               johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
    "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                          Secrecy News -- 11/07/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:20:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:44:43 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/07/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 7, 2001


**      BUSH ORDER ON PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS BLASTED
**      FBI REBUFFS REQUEST FOR DETAINEE INFORMATION
**      ODDS AND ENDS


BUSH ORDER ON PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS BLASTED

The new Bush Administration executive order that creates
problematic new procedures for public access to presidential
records was severely criticized at a congressional hearing
yesterday and some members of Congress are now calling on the
President to rescind it.

"I am concerned that the new procedures may create additional
delays and barriers to releasing ... records," said Rep. Stephen
Horn (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Government Reform
Subcommittee on Government Efficiency which held a hearing on
the matter.

A Justice Department witness demurred. "There is no reason to
anticipate... greater withholding of records," said acting
assistant attorney general M. Edward Whelan III.

The issue was examined at yesterday's hearing with impressive
rigor from various points of view. Scott L. Nelson of Public
Citizen Litigation Group provided a particularly acute analysis
of the new executive order's legal and policy defects.

See the witnesses' prepared statements here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/index.html#pra

"The Executive Order violates the intent of Congress and keeps
the public in the dark," wrote Reps. Henry Waxman and Janice
Schakowsky in a November 6 letter to President Bush. "We urge
you to rescind that order." See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/11/pra_let.html

See also "Bush Urged to Rescind Order on Presidential Materials" by
George Lardner in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51774-2001Nov6.html


FBI REBUFFS REQUEST FOR DETAINEE INFORMATION

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has denied a Freedom of
Information Act request seeking information on the identities
and status of individuals detained in connection with the
September 11 terrorist attacks.

Kate Martin of the Center for National Security Studies said an
appeal was immediately filed. Related FOIA requests are still
pending at the Department of Justice and the Immigration and
Naturalization Service.

"The information sought is not that complicated," the Washington
Post editorialized today. The government "could tell or try to
tell a lot more about this seemingly massive law enforcement
effort than it has." See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51800-2001Nov6.html


ODDS AND ENDS

** The Defense Department's personnel security system is clogged
with people holding security clearances they no longer need.
Some contractors possess multiple clearances they are no longer
entitled to. One individual was recently found to hold 21
different clearances, said Rosalind Baybutt, Deputy Director for
Industrial Security in the Office of Secretary of Defense. "If
you're not using them," she told industry representatives at a
meeting of the NISP Policy Advisory Committee today, "please get
these people out of our inventory."

** The long-delayed FY 2000 annual report of the Information
Security Oversight Office had to be trashed after it arrived
back from the printer last Friday colored orange, white and
blue. "Guess which color was wrong?" said an ISOO spokesman. A
reprinted version should be released in a couple of days.

** As the Bush Administration considers amendments to the
executive order on classification and declassification policy,
the Central Intelligence Agency is pressing its own secrecy
agenda. In particular, the CIA is seeking a new categorical
exemption from disclosure for the President's Daily Brief, no
matter how old or insensitive it might be. This self-serving
proposal is viewed with weary contempt by at least some other
agencies, since it would promote reflexive secrecy rather than a
more discriminating approach to classification. But nothing has
been ruled out.


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

             Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 04:03:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:53:06 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein


 >Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:56:36 -0500
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid


 >Source: Rense.com

 >William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >SierraTimes.com

 >11-6-1

 >"...God bless my family. I love my wife & children more than
 >life itself. Everything I do is for the future of all my
 >children. They may not understand why I have sacrificed so much,
 >why I am so dedicated to this work; but someday they will. I
 >want them to know they are the most important People in my life,
 >and how very, very much I love them..." - William Cooper
 >
 >EAGER, AZ - William Cooper has been killed and an Apache County
 >sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said.

Hello Listerions,

My epitaph:

This didn't surprise me at all. It took a lot longer than I
thought, as Cooper was asking for this for years. He had the
most dangerous twisted brain I ever saw on the UFO circuit.
Since then he kept painting himself into the exitless corner of
his own paranoid ravings, separated from his family and single
handedly fighting the law to the death. He lost.

Josh











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                     Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:35:58 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:10:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Tonnies


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Connors
 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:48:25 -0700

 >Is "balsa-like" the same as balsa in the definitive
 >and absolute?

Since the term "balsa-like" appears in the apparently spurious
version of the Schulgen memo, my understanding is that it is
meant to convey a sense of alien otherness (i.e. "It looked sort
of like balsa wood _but_...")

Whoever wrote this was obviously trying to draw a parallel to
the Roswell debris, some of which was indeed balsa-like...or
simply plain old balsa dunked in Elmer's glue.  It depends on
which expert you consult.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                        Rudy Rucker's 'Saucer Wisdom'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:52:05 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:15:41 -0500
Subject: Rudy Rucker's 'Saucer Wisdom'


List,

I was interested in the review of 'Abduction In My Life' and the
narrative structure used by the author. Scientist Rudy Rucker
has a similarly constructed book on alien contact called "Saucer
Wisdom," which I can't imagine any intelligent ufologist not
liking.  (Rucker takes some pretty viscious stabs at the UFO
research community, but who can blame him?)

If anyone's interested, "Saucer Wisdom" can be purchased via my
site at the following URL:

http://mactonnies.com/rudyrucker.html

'Saucer Wisdom', Rucker's transrealist attempt to usher in
a 'new style of ufology', succeeds as both a novel and as a
handbook for the near and not-so-near future.

Describing the exploits of "Frank Shook", a likeable, slightly
unhinged UFO contactee, Rucker addresses incipient technological
breakthroughs with the same uncanny wit readers of the 'Ware'
series have come to appreciate. Part speculation and part
psycho-spiritual manifesto, 'Saucer Wisdom' is a genre-busting
classic and a great introduction to Rucker's canon.


from http://mactonnies.com/rudyrucker.html

--Mac








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:17:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:18:12 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark

 >Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 04:03:35 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid


 >>Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:56:36 -0500
 >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid


Hi, Josh,

 >>William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >This didn't surprise me at all. It took a lot longer than I
 >thought, as Cooper was asking for this for years. He had the
 >most dangerous twisted brain I ever saw on the UFO circuit.
 >Since then he kept painting himself into the exitless corner of
 >his own paranoid ravings, separated from his family and single
 >handedly fighting the law to the death. He lost.

Sadly true. Cooper was the scariest man I've ever encountered in
my long years in this field, representing the sickest end of the
anti- gummint paranoia which so afflicted American politics over
the past two decades, and which now, happily, is receding.

When I pointed out in an article that some of Cooper's UFO
conspiracy theories had their roots in anti-Semitic literature,
he took to threatening me from various public forums. His
followers were frightening, too. Ten years ago, while lecturing
in Sydney, Australia, on the Dark Side fantasies for which
Cooper was largely responsible, I had my speech interrupted by
an enraged audience member who started shouting at me. It was
his view, as I understood it, that I was a CIA member; after
all, only a CIA member would charge that Cooper's stuff was 100%
horseradish.

I'm sorry that when he left this world, Cooper may have taken a
deputy sheriff with him. I hope the man recovers and is able to
resume his life without ever meeting a Cooper equivalent again.
Cooper, a true sociopath, did damage to just about anybody who
crossed his path. He will not be missed.


Jerry Clark












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

               Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:24:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:21:32 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:22:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600

 >>>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >>>self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >>>popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >>>secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >>>extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >>>world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >>>aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >>>UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >>>and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >>>truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >>>worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >>>from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

 >>...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
 >>about, then OR now? <g>.

 >Hi Alfred,

<snip>

 >He was not only crazy, but he was dangerous Alfred.

That's the report, the party line, and the general
understanding. I don't know that myself. All I know is that,
even from my less than privileged vantage point, he had plenty
to be paranoid about, right, wrong or indifferent. Our freedoms
erode as we speak, fundamentalists on both sides of the
ideological fence caper and leap to substantive gains, and
individuality (culture's savior) is on the endangered species
list. I'm agitated, worried and otherwise concerned about it...
I imagine others might take it a little bit more seriously...
might even be driven crazy, and _made_ dangerous about it. All
of that gets lost in the smirks and sneers of many who discount
the possibility of conspiracy made all the more likely by a
preponderance of ubiquitous sociopaths and the huge profits that
attract them like flies to turning meat. Three men and one woman
in a hundred will cut you and laugh while you're bleeding if
there is enough personal gain in it for them. And they hide,
John... you never know they're there...

http://www.rense.com/general7/socio.htm

 >Maybe you ought to express your views in a separate thread.

Perhaps - but remarking on a facet of the Cooper phenomenon in
a thread named "Cooper" did seem abundantly appropriate.

 >Within the
 >context of this thread it only comes off as 'supportive' of this
 >maniac's point of view.

Will that make me less popular than I am presently? <g>.

I can't give a damn what other's think about me, John, not and
continue to be true to an honorable self, a new sensibility, and
a learned sensitivity... I'm going to continue to write my
conscience, sometimes get honest feedback like I am from you
right now... but live, learn, and grow.

 >And I'm certain that was not your intention.

That's correct, I was just pointing out that Cooper had plenty
to be excited about, forgetting for a moment that his expression
of it might be something less than completely appealing...
Consider the abolutionist John Brown. He was supposed to be
dangerous and crazy too...

It's rather like you and me, John Ford, and Lara Johnstone... we
have plenty to be _angry_ about and can perhaps be criticized
for our expressions regarding that anger. We have
justification... it _might_ be that he did, too. We'll likely
never know for sure, and that's certainly more fuel for _my_
anger. Yours too, perhaps, if you drew back from it a little.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

               Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 8 Nov 2001 08:39:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:33:25 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Hamilton


 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:22:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600

 >>>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >>>self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >>>popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >>>secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >>>extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >>>world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >>>aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >>>UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >>>and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >>>truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >>>worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >>>from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

 >>...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
 >>about, then OR now? <g>.

 >>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >Hi Alfred,

 >There is a very real difference between honest and intelligent
 >dissent and the lunacy (certifiable) that Cooper was responsible
 >for spreading around. Let me share a little story with you, if I
 >may, just to illustrate my point.

 >About four years ago Budd Hopkins, Greg Sandow and myself
 >drove out to New Jersey to speak at an annual conference
 >that is held there. It's a two + hour drive. On the way Budd
 >played a tape for us that was taken from his phone messaging
 >machine. It contained a series of long distance telephone
 >messages that old 'Wild Bill' Cooper had left for Budd.

 >Alfred, the _threats_ and the language he used to issue those
 >threats was enough to send Budd to the police to seek advice as
 >to how to handle the situation. Cooper was a certified looney.
 >And, as has been borne out by his shooting of this poor law
 >enforcement officer (in the head - twice!) a very dangerous nut
 >as well. I have to tell you that just sitting in the car
 >listening to his voice as he ranted and raved at Budd sent
 >chills up my spine. It was spooky to me even as a third party,
 >witnessing the depth of his insanity.

 >I know you man. I know where you are coming from with your
 >remark above. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you that
 >there is _plenty_ to be concerned about government-wise. But you
 >are speaking 'out of turn' or more accurately, 'within the wrong
 >context' by making your comment in any thread connected to this
 >mad-man.

 >He was not only crazy, but he was dangerous Alfred. Maybe you
 >ought to express your views in a separate thread. Within the
 >context of this thread it only comes off as 'supportive' of this
 >maniac's point of view. And I'm certain that was not your
 >intention.


John and all,

I met Bill Cooper through John Lear in 1988. I booked him to
speak at a UFO conference that K. Duran and myself sponsored in
the high desert of 29 Palms Calif years ago. This was one of his
first public talks.

After Cooper told his story he embarrassed me by asking the
audience to donate money for his rent. Later, I confronted him
in the coffee shop about some of his outlandish claims like the
Pleidians landing at Edwards AFB which he denied a month later.
That is when I started to hear him change his story, even
contradicting earlier statements he made. This became a normal
part of his routine.

He was often soused and loved firearms. He advised me to go to a
gun show and purchase a 'an engine block-busting gun' and I
asked him why I should do a silly thing like that and he said
'to defend yourself against the government'.

With pugilistic obstinacy he got into a fist fight with Eric
Beckjord at a San Diego UFO event. Things went downhill from
there. Both of them should have been under care.

He threatened former friend John Lear while drinking by waving a
gun in the air and said he could shoot him. He later accussed
Lear of being agent "Condor" (Moore's aviary). A real nut case!

He not only accussed Budd but many others of disinformation and
lies. He fabricated contents of MJ-12 (Operation Majority)
documents that looked plagiarized from Bill Moore's and Bill
English's publications. He kept changing and expanding the
contents and accussing anyone who disagreed.

I have the dubious distinction of being one of the people he
slighted in his book 'Behold a Pale Horse'. Most of this was
also plagiarized material from conspiracy sources.

Then he had enough with alien conspiracies and declared there
were no aliens (evil or otherwise), but plenty of evil
government people. That is when he entrenched himself in upstate
Arizona to carry out his war against the government as a
so-called 'patriot'.

May he rest in peace.


-Bill Hamilton









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:53:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:35:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Strickland


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:35:22 -0500

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:07:04 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

Kevin wrote (snipped):

 >>Actually, it is the same side of the coin. If they are leading
 >>their abductees, clients, subjects, experiencers, then we have
 >>the first step into the allignment of them with those conducting
 >>the research.

Maybe. Maybe not.

There arises an a priori bias, if the person wishing help has
already pre-conceived opinions about what may or may not have
happened to him/her when arriving for whatever sort of
counseling therapy that researcher is licensed to practice, be
it psychotherapy, hypnosis or EMDR. The form of therapy is not
in question at this point. It's the fact that the client may
walk into a therapist's office with pre-conceived opinions about
what has happened. Right? See if you agree or disagree, after
reading the following.

Say I am the patient. I walk in _knowing_ I've been abducted
(1st possible bias), and I want help integrating those
experiences into my daily life. The therapist, on the other
hand, isn't sure at all that I'm sane, much less that what I
just told him about a consciously-recalled abduction experience
is "real." He needs to be able to measure, compare and weigh
what I have just told him against other defining factors seen in
schizophrenia, which are _not_ evident or present in the
abduction scenario, in order to eliminate any possible
psychosis. Psychological testing is usually a standard required
procedure to help with this analysis.

Unfortunately, several of the questions on the MMPR test may
show bias, depending on whether the abductee is an informed,
well-read person on the UFO phenomena, or whether the person is
a child or an adult completely unfamiliar with the pheonomena.
This leads to another probable bias, unbeknownst to the
therapist or researcher, and can determine whether the
individual may be considered, "Normal," "Neurotic," or
"Psychotic," depending on the number of times and ways the
client responds to the following question.

The question asked on the MMPR is presented in several forms
throughout the test. In essence, the question reads, "Do you see
things [not defined] (or experience things) that other's (around
you) do not see?" This question can be answered on the Lickert
5-point scale, "Never," "Not Often," "Sometimes," "Very Often,"
or "Always." If you believe you are an abductee, have had UFO
sightings or ET experiences, how you answer this question will
depend on whether or not there were others present to
corroborate what you saw (or experienced). Most often, abductees
are alone when they see or experience such "high strangeness."
If you are a child, completely unfamiliar with the UFO/ET
experience, you may answer "Sometimes," or "Very Often,"
depending on how frequently the ETs are "visiting" you, and
whether family or friends were present. However, if you are
well-read and are well-informed about the fact that thousands of
others world-wide have seen, photographed and experienced the
UFO phenomena, you will probably answer "Never." One answer
places you in the category of a "good neurotic," the latter
places you in the "normal" range. How's that for a priori bias?

Part of statistics research is to identify and count behaviors:
to see if there is any correlation or pattern that emerges in
those counted behaviors. In order to do that, variable behaviors
may be defined by specific terminology identified by the
researcher (2nd possible bias) through pre-interviews with the
abductees.

It becomes nearly impossible to avoid such bias on the
therapist's part, if the therapist is also the researcher.
Therefore, an unbiased, computer programmer would be needed to
write the programs required to count those behaviors, if the
therapist is going to focus on the client's psychological
trauma. If a pre-study were done with all of the interviewees
just to identify and count specific terminology used by them to
describe what they feel happened during 1 abduction scenario
(much less a life-time of experiences). Then you are looking at
massive computer programming time and expense. I dare say,
_none_ of the researchers have separated themselves from the
data to that extent. I would bet a month's salary on that fact.

For example: out of a total sampling of 300 people, 150 male,
150 female, how many times were the terms "mind-reading" or
"scanning" used by the interviewee when describing behaviors of
the ETs during 1 abduction scenario? If you are the researcher
_and_ the therapist, the _only_ unbiased way that you can sort
through the entire dialogue is to record and later allow a
super-computer to count said used terminology to define specific
behaviors. The problem with that is that if the researcher and
therapist are one-in-the-same, the computer program needs to be
written to "find" such-and-such terminology (e.g.,
"mind-reading" or "scanning") in the first place (3rd possible
bias). And, to top it all off, this would only be 1 variable
measured.

Dr. Mack mentions several, as do Hopkins and Jacobs as common
occurence behaviors during abductions. The fact that these
researchers and therapists have all "chosen" to "leave out"
specific behaviors or descriptions of behaviors made by the
interviewees is noteworthy. It provides for a possible 4th bias,
as inclusion of such data might skew any correlation found in
the other variables, as to make the ones being measured less
than significant, when in fact, they may be very significant.

So, despite what may be a true desire on the therapist's part to
"help" the client integrate abduction experiences into his/her
life and move on, it seems almost at odds with the researcher's
goals, to count variable behaviors exhibited by the ETs during
the abduction scenario.

Am I all wet here? How _can_ one person do both without bias? I,
too, would like to see the raw data from Jacobs, Mack and
Hopkins studies.


Sincerely asking,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 8

                    UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:35:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:36:52 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor


I am pleased to be able to give a progress report on Joseph
Trainor, editor of UFO Roundup.

As most subscribers and readers of UFO Roundup will know, Joe
has been offline due to cataracts in both eyes.

Joe reported that he had his first eye operation at the
Miller-Dwan Unit of St. Mary's Duluth Clinic around the middle
of August and since then he has been wearing dark Solar Shield
glasses and taking continual eyedrop medication. He was on
Ciloxan and Prednisolene the first week and after that he was
taking Prednisolene in ever-decreasing doses.

He stated that he was still myopic but the vision in his "blind"
right eye is much improved with the new lens, so much so that he
was appalled at the vision in what he thought was his "good"
left eye--everything was a total blur!

In his latest message Joe said that on Monday, October 29, 2001,
he was at Miller-Dwan Hospital in Duluth, having his second
cataract operation, this one on his left eye. It went pretty
well. He has had two post-op exams and has to go back for a
third on December 11th. After that, he will get new glasses and
hopefully his vision will be pretty much restored. He finished
taking the Ciloxan on Monday and now has to take the
Prednisolene in increasingly small doses until the beginning of
December.

Let's hope all goes well for Joe, not just with his eyes but
also in the new job he has just started.




E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of AUFORN Australian UFO Reports
and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available,
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

              Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:31:57 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 02:18:37 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Mortellaro


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 8 Nov 2001 08:39:23 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight


<snip>

 >John and all,

 >I met Bill Cooper through John Lear in 1988. I booked him to
 >speak at a UFO conference that K. Duran and myself sponsored in
 >the high desert of 29 Palms Calif years ago. This was one of his
 >first public talks.

 >After Cooper told his story he embarrassed me by asking the
 >audience to donate money for his rent. Later, I confronted him
 >in the coffee shop about some of his outlandish claims like the
 >Pleidians landing at Edwards AFB which he denied a month later.
 >That is when I started to hear him change his story, even
 >contradicting earlier statements he made. This became a normal
 >part of his routine.

 >He was often soused and loved firearms. He advised me to go to a
 >gun show and purchase a 'an engine block-busting gun' and I
 >asked him why I should do a silly thing like that and he said
 >'to defend yourself against the government'.

 >With pugilistic obstinacy he got into a fist fight with Eric
 >Beckjord at a San Diego UFO event. Things went downhill from
 >there. Both of them should have been under care.

 >He threatened former friend John Lear while drinking by waving a
 >gun in the air and said he could shoot him. He later accussed
 >Lear of being agent "Condor" (Moore's aviary). A real nut case!

 >He not only accussed Budd but many others of disinformation and
 >lies. He fabricated contents of MJ-12 (Operation Majority)
 >documents that looked plagiarized from Bill Moore's and Bill
 >English's publications. He kept changing and expanding the
 >contents and accussing anyone who disagreed.

 >I have the dubious distinction of being one of the people he
 >slighted in his book 'Behold a Pale Horse'. Most of this was
 >also plagiarized material from conspiracy sources.

 >Then he had enough with alien conspiracies and declared there
 >were no aliens (evil or otherwise), but plenty of evil
 >government people. That is when he entrenched himself in upstate
 >Arizona to carry out his war against the government as a
 >so-called 'patriot'.

 >May he rest in peace.


 >-Bill Hamilton

Hi Bill, List, Errol,

In defense of no one man, but rather, one man's paranoia against
that which is counter to the American culture. And I do not
refer to the mixed bag of cultures which we have become (not
objecting, merely defining), but to the culture of the
Constitution, the one with the Bill of Rights, all them freedoms
and such?

A look at what we've become against the inconspicuous position
of the the Constitutional Republic, which is our real heritage.
Terribly unfortunate, in'it, that such is now background and not
on the fore?

Having said that, I wish to convey to this list, to those who
are Americans, to those who love us and those who hate us, that
this nation is no longer the one it used to be. Is it a wonder
then that some are driven to such lengths from a level of
complete frustration with that which life _could_ be like here?
Should be?

Not to me.

Such frustration breeds a contempt for authority which is
government's minister. It often makes some people crazy with the
knowledge that it could be the way our Founders wanted it, but
is the way it is today, thanks to secrecy, to the concept that
citizens are not worthy and are not capable, of making their own
decisions. Of dealing with concepts such as alien races.

The more laws a government administers and enforces, the less
citizens will take upon themselves, personal responsibility,
which is the hallmark of a free society.

And of all the secrets this and other governments take upon
themselves to keep, the worst one is that we are likely not
alone in this galaxy, and are not unique to life itself. Imagine
what is known by others and should be known by us? Pelican
sightings are not unique. The planet Venus is not a unique
sighting. Neither is swamp gas.

But the UFO conundrum falls into a class all by itself. By it's
very nature and uniqueness, is quite likely quite a real
phenomena. It could make me crazy. In fact it does. And
sometimes it takes all I can muster to be a law abiding citizen.
There are people in law enforcement who feel similarly. Theyeven
have a noteworthy website. But they must maintain security
within that site, so that they not lose their jobs. Funny, ain't
it?

Not!

God bless Amurika and all the ships at sea.

Jim Mortellaro








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:49:29 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas


 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should
 >be checked.

<snip>

 >William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The
 >book has become the best selling underground book of all
 >time. It is read and promoted by word of mouth by People of
 >all races, religions, and nationalities.

It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
lectures, but better documented.

Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
true knowledge of and be correct about some things...


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

             Re: UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor - Shevlin

From: "Shevlin, Donnie (Collosus)" <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 20:27:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:51:12 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor - Shevlin


 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:35:47 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP: Update on Joseph Trainor

<snip>

 >Let's hope all goes well for Joe, not just with his eyes but
 >also in the new job he has just started.



Hear, hear..... Get well soon Joe!! You're missed.


Donnie Shevlin









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Chalker

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:28:45 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:08:00 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Chalker


I have to agree with Jerry Clark. Bill Cooper, who lead many
conspiratorially minded enthustiasts on a merry ride of sordid
UFO paranoia, shot dead in a police raid, should not be missed
for his contribution to the UFO field.

Linda Moulton Howe gave some of Bill's wild stuff an airing in
her book 'An Alien Harvest' (1989) and he himself gave such
things fuller rein in his bizarre and trying opus 'Behold a Pale
Horse'. I soon wished I hadn't wasted my money, but I felt I
needed to be informed on even the most extreme UFO paranoia
'fodder'.

Jerry Clark places Cooper's contribution to the "dark side" of
ufology in an appropriately entitled piece 'Dark Side' in his
highly recommended encyclopedia series, which appeared in 3
different editions, each well worth getting as potent foundation
stones for any reasonable ufological library - 3 volumes
originally which appeared between 1990 - 1996 (Cooper is
mentioned in Volumes 1 & 3), the 2 volume edition 'The UFO
Encyclopedia' in 1998 and its abridged version 'The UFO Book' in
1998 (abridged to 705 pages!). The 'Dark Side' section in the
last 2 manifestations of Jerry Clark's encyclopedia are well
worth reading for their sanity and reality checking benefits.

The Bill Cooper I became aware of seemed to be a pretty
dangerous and erratic guy. Anyone who sought to criticise Bill's
UFO ravings, were suddenly remembered by Bill to be listed on
MJ12 documents he claimed to see while in the navy. Probably
explains why I used a pseudonym to try to get on his web site
once. Can't understand why my ID bounced. After all, Wile.E.
Coyote was about as serious as I thought Cooper intended us to
take his stuff. He himself seemed to have repudiated all his UFO
ramblings as misinformation from the "secret government" or some
such thing.

A colourful character and I suspect my message here will be
attacked by the Cooper faithful. A violent end to a wild card in
ufology's dark under belly. A suprising number of people seem to
have totally uncritically accepted Cooper's stories. Given the
rising tide of uncritical thinking in this field over the last
decade or so I really shouldn't be surprised I guess.

His life, his credo in alls its varied forms & rebirths, and the
manner of his passing will no doubt provide more fodder for the
conspiracy rumour mill, but I suggest there is little point in
revisiting his bizarre contribution to ufology. It unfortunately
has lived on via the uncritical dimensions of the Internet.
There nothing seems to die, no matter how excessive it seems.

As for the man, I hope he rests in peace, certainly more
peacifully in death, than in the life he led.


Regards,

Bill Chalker








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

              Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 00:06:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:10:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review - Maccabee


 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:19:04 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Abduction In My Life' - A Review

<snip>

 >I will order the new book immediately and give it a read. Bruce,
 >you asked me if I had read it yet, and in the heat of trying to
 >get out some bread & butter jobs and participating in a couple
 >of threads, I never had the opportunity to respond. I promise
 >that as soon as I finish reading your latest, I'll post my
 >impressions to the List. Judging by Katharina's review (someone
 >whose opinion I have always trusted and valued) I'm sure I'll
 >not only enjoy it, but as with your FBI files book, learn a heap
 >of new stuff along the way.

Thanks for the message. I'm sure you will find the book to be
more than you expect. It is a new form of literature...
"faction."

I should submit it to the Pulitzer Prize committee..... except
they'd never give an award for a UFO book!









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

                                'UFO News UK'

From: Anthony James <AJames@emufora.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:44:12 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:15:21 -0500
Subject: 'UFO News UK'


NEW UFO REPORTING CENTRE

A new UFO reporting centre was launched in Nottingham, UK at the
end of August. The centre helps with inquiries regarding UFOs
and accept UFO reports over the Internet. Anthony James, who
founded the East Midlands UFO Research Association (EMUFORA)
which ran from 1990 to 1998, is behind the project.

Mr James stated that since EMUFORA was disbanded, he has
received many enquiries and reports each year which have just
been filed away. The reason for the UFO reporting centre is to
publish an 'on-line' newsletter of sightings and other UFO
connected subjects, which will be sent to anyone who wants to be
on my mailing list. I answer to no particular organisation and
will send the information and reports to who ever decides to
subscribe, and subscription is free!

Mr James stated: "This is strictly an E-mail newsletter and all
UFO reports should be reported in good faith. This is the best
way to keep an eye on our skies and to report anything unusual
that might be seen. UFO reports have come in from all around the
world and have been included in the newsletter. This is also a
great way to publicise an event whatever country you are in. I
have countless subscriptions from Australia, the USA and UK.

EMUFORA staff interviewed hundreds of witnesses and investigated
many UFO sightings over the Nottinghamshire area during the
1990's, the group was disbanded in 1998. Mr James stated "I
won't be going out and interviewing people or holding meetings
for the public like we did with EMUFORA".

The first on-line newsletter was sent out at the end of August
as E-mail, and is called 'UFO News UK'. Since the newsletter was
first sent out, I have had subscribers from Finland, Italy,
Australia, Canada, USA and the UK. The newsletter will be sent
out every other week and is free.

Anyone who would like to receive the newsletter should E-mail
their name and E-mail address to:-

AJames@emufora.freeserve.co.uk

Kind Regards

Anthony  James










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

                 Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 04:35:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:24:18 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:22:54 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:07:07 -0600

 >>>>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:19 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: William Cooper Dies In Gunfight
 >>>>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Before his violent death in November, 2001, lecturer and
 >>>>self-proclaimed military insider William Cooper helped
 >>>>popularize a number of malignant myths centered on the notion of
 >>>>secret U.S. contact with aliens. Cooper believed
 >>>>extraterrestrials were involved in a quiet takeover of the
 >>>>world, and claimed to have seen briefing documents and photos of
 >>>>aliens while serving in the military. He famously attacked noted
 >>>>UFO personalities such as Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe
 >>>>and Stanton Friedman as being CIA operatives bent on keeping the
 >>>>truth from public knowledge. Later in his career, Cooper's
 >>>>worldview became increasingly oppressive and paranoid.

 >>>>from http://mactonnies.com/coverup.html

 >>>...and jeez...what _ever_ could there have been to be paranoid
 >>>about, then OR now? <g>.


Hi Alfred, hi All,

 >>He was not only crazy, but he was dangerous Alfred.

 >That's the report, the party line, and the general
 >understanding. I don't know that myself.

Which is why I shared the 'Budd Story' with you. Threatening
someone's life repeatedly is not exactly 'sane' or 'socially
acceptable' behavior, know what I mean Vern?  ;)

 >All I know is that,
 >even from my less than privileged vantage point, he had plenty
 >to be paranoid about, right, wrong or indifferent. Our freedoms
 >erode as we speak, fundamentalists on both sides of the
 >ideological fence caper and leap to substantive gains, and
 >individuality (culture's savior) is on the endangered species
 >list. I'm agitated, worried and otherwise concerned about it...

 >I imagine others might take it a little bit more seriously...
 >might even be driven crazy, and _made_ dangerous about it.

I agree with all of the former but I draw the line at your
latter statement. Going over the line is going over the line. No
excuse. When that kind of extremism exists isolated from any
ennobling humanitarian movements or causes, it becomes just
plain dangerous to innocents.

The Sheriff's Deputy he shot in the head twice is a working
stiff with a wife and four kiddies and people who loved him, and
probably _not_ a part of some dark federal conspiracy to 'take
out' Bill Cooper.

Personally, I think that msot of the expressions of outrage at
Bill Cooper being expressed on the List are healthy ones.

 >Three men and one woman in a hundred will cut you and laugh
 >while you're bleeding if there is enough personal gain in it for
 >them. And they hide, John... you never know they're there...

True enough. I grew up in an urban environment that allowed me
to witness the whole spectrum of human expression. Both for good
and for evil. One thing I did learn was; that a lot of 'wounded'
human beings/souls are responsible for a lot of the sickness and
insanity that is perpetrated. 'Purely Evil' people are rare.

Frightened, whimpering cowards hide.

 >>Within the
 >>context of this thread it only comes off as 'supportive' of this
 >>maniac's point of view.

 >Will that make me less popular than I am presently? <g>.

You're a hit with me cowboy. Screw the rest. They have
no idea what a _genuine_ character you are, nor do they
have the psychic equipment to appreciate it. You have always
had all of the right, 'decadent' qualities that I look for in a
person.    :)

 >I can't give a damn what other's think about me, John, not and
 >continue to be true to an honorable self, a new sensibility, and
 >a learned sensitivity... I'm going to continue to write my
 >conscience, sometimes get honest feedback like I am from you
 >right now... but live, learn, and grow.

I feel the same way Alfred. And as long as we're alive I guess
we'll be learning and growing. Most times in spite of our own
ignorance.

 >>And I'm certain that was not your intention.

 >That's correct, I was just pointing out that Cooper had plenty
 >to be excited about, forgetting for a moment that his expression
 >of it might be something less than completely appealing...
 >Consider the abolutionist John Brown. He was supposed to be
 >dangerous and crazy too...

Depends on which side the coin comes down I suppose. Calls like
that have to be made on a case by case basis. Doesn't do to
generalize too much when it comes to people.  ;)

 >It's rather like you and me, John Ford, and Lara Johnstone... we
 >have plenty to be _angry_ about and can perhaps be criticized
 >for our expressions regarding that anger. We have
 >justification... it _might_ be that he did, too. We'll likely
 >never know for sure, and that's certainly more fuel for _my_
 >anger. Yours too, perhaps, if you drew back from it a little.

Like the two 'Kirks' in that old Star Trek episode, I _need_ my
anger (along with my other panoply of emotions) in order to be/
express 'who' I am, and to do what I have to do. My friends tell
me that I "wear my heart on my sleeve." Apparently (to them
anyway) all my emotions are always right there on the surface.
Probably why I'm such a lousy Poker player.

Having strong/powerful emotions is not a liability if you can
manage to balance the energies within yourself. It's a learning
process that takes all of a lifetime. Draw back from my anger?
Naw, don't have to. It's been a good friend on more than one
occasion, and I'm sure it will be again in the future. Sure I
make mistakes, we all do, but I could no more cut myself off
from my own anger than I could from my equally strong love or
any of the other emotions that echo from someplace within me.

One emotion cannot be isolated from the others. An emotion that
is intentionally 'cut off' will also cut me off from the others.
The pathway will become blocked for them all if I was to
introduce an impediment to one. Like it or not, we all express
who we are at all times. Some folks are going to love you, some
will hate you, and still others will remain completely
indifferent. Just the way it is.  Me? I need _both_ my 'Kirks'.
;)

God rest that poor crazy bastard's soul. May he rest in a Peace
that he obviously lacked in life.

Regards,

John

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:17:42 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:26:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Randle


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:35:22 -0500

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:07:04 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Actually, it is the same side of the coin. If they are leading
 >>their abductees, clients, subjects, experiencers, then we have
 >>the first step into the allignment of them with those conducting
 >>the research. I thought I had mentioned that CDB Bryan's
 >>interview with Mack (page 270-71 hardback) in which Mack said,
 >>"And there's another interesting dimension to this... which Budd
 >>Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and I argue about all the time, which is
 >>that I'm struck by the fact there seems to be a kind of matching
 >>of the investigator with the experiencer. So what may be the
 >>archetypal structure of an abduction to Dave Jacobs may not be
 >>the uniform experience of, say, Joe Nyman or John Mack or
 >>someone else. And the experiencers seem to pick out the
 >>investigator who will fit their experience."

 >Is Mack talking about the alleged facts reported by the
 >abductees, or about the overall interpretation of the abduction?

In this context, it's the same thing. What we need to do, as
researchers, is survey the field to see if there is a
distinction. And, what we need to do is check the original
report made by the abductee with that at the conclusion of the
research, to learn if it has been changed, for whatever reason,
between the time it was first reported and the time that the
researcher has determined that he or she has completed the
investigation. Such a survey would certainly provide clues about
researcher influence in the overall abductee picture.

 >What does he mean by "archetypal structure of an abduction"?

I believe this is just a fancy way of saying "the abduction
experience."

 >As I've already pointed out, Budd and John Mack - along with
 >abductees they've both worked with - agree that the details of
 >the reported experiences tend to be similar in both camps. What
 >differs is the interpretation. (More precisely, similar
 >experiences are reported in both camps.

 >I don't have Bryan's book with me as I write this, so I can't
 >check the reference. But this quote - at least as Kevin
 >reproduces it here - shows one problem that can arise when you
 >write about abductions without spending a lot of time talking to
 >the people you're studying. You might, no matter how careful you
 >try to be, put your own spin on something you read. You might
 >come to wrong conclusions, which could easily be corrected by
 >the people you're writing about.

All true, but remember, contrary to what has been reported in
other quarters, we did interview Hopkins and Mack on video tape.
Not to mention listening to their lectures, listening to their
radio appearances, watching them on documentaries and reading
their books.  And while it is true that we all look at the
material through our own filters and put our own spin on the
material, it is also true that Mack and Jacobs, in their
writings and lectures, have seen this "matching" of experiencer
to researcher.

And, when Mack was asked, specifically about this, he denied
that he had made the statements... though he conceded that he
had thought about them. Yet, Bryan quoted the statements and we
have him on video tape making the statements, so when the
questions were asked, they were not adequately answered.

 >Here's an additional problem. How do we know what experiences
 >Budd's and John Mack's abductees report? Both Budd and John have
 >written books, so that's one source of this information. But
 >it's not an adequate source for serious study. John, for
 >instance, may accept reports from abductees who say that they
 >have secret lives as aliens. So he puts things like that in his
 >books. Budd doesn't accept those reports, so he doesn't put them
 >in. But that doesn't mean he doesn't get them. I've long
 >thought, and have often said, that this is a failing in both
 >Budd's and Dave Jacobs's books. They don't show enough of the
 >raw material they work with.

So, what you're suggesting is that we are getting the spin of
the researchers and not necessarily what the abductees say
during their sessions. That we need access to all the raw data
so that we can learn what all has been said.

However, it has been my experience that abduction researchers
are not as open with their records as we would like. When, for
example, we attempted a survey to find out how many abductees
reported a precipitating event that mirrored sleep paralysis, we
didn't even receive the courtesy of a response to the question
from the various researchers that we queried.

Yes, I know that some of these records must be protected, and
that some of the data are gathered in confidence, but to
understand the whole, we need to see the pieces. In the end,
we're left drawing the information from their books, their
lectures, their TV and radio appearances, and the video taped
sessions that they provided for us.

But this is a question that could be answered fairly easily, as
long as we could see the raw data in the order collected. That
way we could determine if there is a researcher bias at work, if
the researcher does influence the report, the extent to which
that influence is implanted on the witness, or if the material
is reported in a manner consistent throughout the research.

 >That, though, is another issue. I'll repeat my main point -
 >that we can't learn what abductees actually report simply by
 >reading books by John Mack, Dave Jacobs, and Budd Hopkins. John
 >gets many reports of unpleasant medical procedures that he
 >doesn't print. Budd and Dave get many reports of new-age stuff
 >that they don't print. They don't try to hide this, at least in
 >my experience. They acknowledge it very freely. So some of the
 >differences you find in their writing are differences of
 >interpretation - what they believe in abductee reports, or what
 >they think is important. They're not necessarily differences in
 >what the abductees report.

Which is all well and good, but doesn't answer the point that
Mack and Jacobs have made... that there is a matching of
experiencer with with investigator. Instead, we are presented
with a flawed argument for the reality of abduction rather than
provided with all the data to make an informed decision.

And by flawed arguments, I mean that if the researcher is
eliminating the information that doesn't conform to his or her
beliefs, then any conclusion we draw from the published body of
evidence, from the lectures and interviews will be flawed. Not
that the abduction experience itself is flawed, only the
conclusion drawn about the work of a specific research is
flawed.

 >>And there are two points to be made here. One, this implies, to
 >>some extent, leading the witness, and two, it implies that the
 >>views of the researcher are given to the subject.

 >>On page 25 of 'The Threat' (hardback), Jacobs discusses his
 >>sessions with Pam, which, I think, makes the point once again.
 >>Jacobs wrote, "I had over thirty sessions with Pam, and during
 >>that time she has come to have a less romantic idea about what
 >>has been happening to her. She was initially disappointed that
 >>what she remembered under hypnosis were not the pleasant
 >>experiences she had imagined, but she now accepts the reality of
 >>what has been happening to her. She realized that neither
 >>guardian angles nor the Pleiades have anything to do with her
 >>experiences, and that she cannot manipulate time and reality."

 >>In other words, Pam arrived at Jacobs' door believing that her
 >>experiences were pleasant and might reflect her interaction with
 >>what she saw as a guardian angel. After undergoing hypnosis with
 >>Jacobs, she now realizes the threat and that the experiences
 >>were not pleasant. She wasn't visited by New Age philosophers of
 >>John Mack or cold, calculating scientists of Budd Hopkins, but
 >>the alien invaders of David Jacobs... she came with one set of
 >>beliefs and left with a different set which, matches, more
 >>closely, the beliefs of David Jacobs.

 >But this doesn't prove that Dave was leading her. What happens
 >in this account is very common in other situations, where nobody
 >questions it. For instance, suppose a woman whose husband abuses
 >her goes into therapy. It's very common for abused women to
 >defend their abusers. "He really loves me." "He means well; he
 >just gets angry sometimes." "It's my own fault. I don't treat
 >him well enough."

 >Then, in the course of therapy or counselling, these women may
 >dramatically change their views. "That bastard abused me. I did
 >nothing to deserve that. Nobody deserves to be treated that
 >way." You could say that they're adopting their therapists'
 >views here, but because the therapists' view seems sensible -
 >and, above all, grounded in the facts - nobody objects.

Actually, when we move into some of the therapeutic arenas, we
do see that the therapists belief structures begin to take over
and that allegations of abuse, for example, might be more
consistent with the therapist's view of the world than the
client's. That is not to say that all therapists implant their
views on their clients, but to say that some do. The
psychological literature is full of examples and both "He Who
Shall Remain Nameless" and Edith Fiore lost their licenses
because they did implant their belief structures on their
clients.

And, yes, if the therapists conclusions are grounded in fact and
supported by other evidence, then the view is accepted.
Unfortunately, too often, when there are no facts to support the
allegations, when there is denial from others involved, the
therapists views are still accepted as fact. Paul Ingram is in
jail because of statements made by his daughters, in therapy,
accusing him of all sorts of crimes, though there is not a shred
of outside or corroborative evidence to justify the allegations
made.

The point here, I guess, is that this is not a black and white
issue. We have the statements made by the abduction researchers
that suggest, and I stress this, suggest, that there is a
matching of abductee to researcher, and that leads to one set of
conclusions. If true, it means that we need to reassess that
which we think we know. If not true, it means that we need to
improve our investigative techniques and the reporting of the
raw data so that proper and valid conclusions can be drawn.

Yes, I know that I have them coming and going here, but all that
I'm really saying is that we need to take abduction research to
the next level so that we can either validate the process, or
find the answers to our questions. And yes, I understand that
those who have experienced abduction aren't interested in our
finding answers to our abstract questions. They already have the
answers that satisfy them.

 >Why is it different when Dave talks to an abductee about
 >abductions? The truth is that we don't know whether it's
 >different or not. Some of us just assume it is. Maybe the
 >abductee ("Pam" in this case) had obvious conflicts sticking out
 >all over her story - maybe she gave obvious indications that she
 >felt hurt, used, and angry, with these feelings coexisting next
 >to her belief that it was all for her own good. Maybe Dave just
 >brought the conflict to her attention, and let her draw her own
 >conclusions. That would be standard therapeutic practice in other
 >situations (not, of course, that Dave pretends to be a
 >therapist). I've seen Budd do exactly this with abductees he
 >works with.

I won't bore you with the conundrum that a good therapist can't
be a good researcher and a good researcher can't be a good
therapist because the two goals often become mutually exclusive.
I will simply point out that, according to Jacobs, Pam arrived
believing one thing and left believing another, which was that
her experiences were not pleasant as she had thought. Her new
set of beliefs more closely resembled those of Jacobs... which,
of course, doesn't mean that he was wrong. It means to fully
understand the situation, we need more evidence and more
research, something, I fear won't happen in today's climate of
mistrust, territorialism, and paranoia.

 >I'm not saying we can prove Dave doesn't lead his abductees. I'm
 >only saying that the passage Kevin quotes doesn't prove that he
 >does lead them.

And I'm only saying that this passage suggests that Jacobs leads
his subjects, not that it proves he does. Other, additional
information is needed, but that passage does suggest that there
might be an implantation of ideas from "therapist" (and I put it
in quotes because Jacobs is acting in some respects as a
therapist and in others as a researcher) to the subject. She had
one set of beliefs when she arrived and left with another.

If I read Greg correctly here, then we are in the same pew and
possibly on the same page. We have information supplied by the
abduction researchers and more data supplied by the abductees,
and even more that comes from lectures, interviews and TV
documentaries, but we don't have enough to answer some of the
basic questions such as researcher bias, and the efficacy of
hypnotic regression, not to mention the hundreds of different
facts that seem to fit into no pattern. What we must watch for
is researcher bias, but also our own bias, which can color our
way of interpreting the data.

KRandle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:29:27 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark


 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >lectures, but better documented.

 >Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

This is the equivalent of saying, as barstool philosophers are
wont to do from time to time, that "Hitler [or Stalin, or the
Unabomber, or whoever; fill in the name of any maniac who comes
to mind] had some good ideas."  No, they didn't. They were just
crazy, evil bastards, and they had the ideas of crazy, evil
bastards.

The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
can ascribe to him is far, far right.


Jerry Clark










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 15:35:36 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 16:13:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:17:42 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:35:22 -0500

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:07:04 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Actually, it is the same side of the coin. If they are leading
 >>>their abductees, clients, subjects, experiencers, then we have
 >>>the first step into the allignment of them with those conducting
 >>>the research. I thought I had mentioned that CDB Bryan's
 >>>interview with Mack (page 270-71 hardback) in which Mack said,
 >>>"And there's another interesting dimension to this... which Budd
 >>>Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and I argue about all the time, which is
 >>>that I'm struck by the fact there seems to be a kind of matching
 >>>of the investigator with the experiencer. So what may be the
 >>>archetypal structure of an abduction to Dave Jacobs may not be
 >>>the uniform experience of, say, Joe Nyman or John Mack or
 >>>someone else. And the experiencers seem to pick out the
 >>>investigator who will fit their experience."

 >>Is Mack talking about the alleged facts reported by the
 >>abductees, or about the overall interpretation of the abduction?

 >In this context, it's the same thing. What we need to do, as
 >researchers, is survey the field to see if there is a
 >distinction. And, what we need to do is check the original
 >report made by the abductee with that at the conclusion of the
 >research, to learn if it has been changed, for whatever reason,
 >between the time it was first reported and the time that the
 >researcher has determined that he or she has completed the
 >investigation. Such a survey would certainly provide clues about
 >researcher influence in the overall abductee picture.

Gentlemen and Errol,

Just one point which I need to inject in this thread. Kevin, as
you wrote above, the assumption appeared to be that the
experiencer had perceptions in the form of memory to begin with.
And whilst this is often the case, it is also not the case.
Sometimes people have vague memories. They suffer from various
phobias and other post traumatic type illnesses, with some
perception that it all might have something to do with the UFO
abduction phenomena. Sometimes it is a book, story or picture
from which a reaction occurs.

What of this scenario, where there are few specific memories to
begin with. Then the regressing therapist, hypnotist or
whatever, have little to go on. I cannot speak for others in
this matter, only for me. But as you know, my original memories
are single frame pictures. These expanded through recall, not of
hypnosis. One thing I did not say to any of you, is that at one
time I underwent hypnosis (light hypnosis) for other reasons...
smoking cessation, stress, etc. I went so often to the
therapist, that I went deeper and deeper into the relaxation
sessions to the point where I was really under - but good!

Being in this relaxed state, and with no vectoring by the
therapist, who knew nothing of my memories, he asked me to go to
that special place, where I knew peace and was happy. Well there
is such a place, physically. I went there. In the mountains of
upper New York State. By a lake. In a pine cabin. With my
family.

I was at peace and very happy, until the memory came rushing in
of a perceived abduction. I wept profoundly for a good half
hour, while still under... came out of it all by myself... and
cried again for a long time. I refused to tell the therapist
what had occurred. I told him a lie. I said that the place and
time was so wonderful that I knew it could never be again. So I
wept from the loss.

Seemed like a damned good idea at the time. But I never went
back. I knew then, that my memories were quite real. That is to
say, I knew them to be real before, but after that episode, my
belief was reinforced. Many fold. After that time, my memories
bagain flashing back until I can remember most of what happened
during the snapshot memories.

This could have occured under formal regression, but having
refused that, I can now be more certain of those memories as
they occured "naturally," in a manner of speaking.

And now, back to your thread ....


Jim Mortellaro






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 9

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:33:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 16:49:52 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should
 >>be checked.

 ><snip>

 >>William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The
 >>book has become the best selling underground book of all
 >>time. It is read and promoted by word of mouth by People of
 >>all races, religions, and nationalities.

 >It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >lectures, but better documented.

 >Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

Really. It kind of begs the question what he was into that
whacked him out so bad? Seems to have gotten everybody into an
uproar at any rate. I'm not one to take up for the reactionary
wing, but there seems to be so much lately that just _ain't_
right... I begin to wonder if that won't be the fate,
ultimately, for an expanding horizon of us.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

                Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 22:11:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:19:32 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas
 >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:49:29 -0500

 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should
 >>be checked.

 ><snip>

 >>William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The
 >>book has become the best selling underground book of all
 >>time. It is read and promoted by word of mouth by People of
 >>all races, religions, and nationalities.

 >It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >lectures, but better documented.

 >Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

Nick,

I'm not sure what you mean by "true knowledge," but of course
even insane, violent people like Cooper can occasionally be
right about something entirely by accident. So can utter
ignoramuses. So what? What does this prove? Certainly not that
we should take the Bill Cooper's of the world and their utterly
paranoid ideas seriously.


- Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

                          Secrecy News -- 11/09/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:18:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:23:13 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/09/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 9, 2001


**      INTELLIGENCE MEETS THE PUBLIC
**      JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REORGANIZES
**      MONITORING ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATIONS
**      SENATE APPROVES INTEL SPENDING
**      BUSH ORDER DRAWS MORE CRITICISM


INTELLIGENCE MEETS THE PUBLIC

US intelligence agencies traditionally operate behind a wall of
secrecy which quite deliberately excludes the public. The clear
implication is that the public has nothing of value to
contribute to the intelligence process, and that intelligence is
none of the public's business anyway.

Remarkably, the National Intelligence Council (NIC) has been
charting a different course. The NIC, the intelligence
community component which is responsible for producing national
intelligence estimates, has embarked on a series of joint
studies with non-governmental research institutes and has
produced an impressive set of unclassified publications on
topics of broad general interest.

Last year, for example, the NIC published a report called Global
Trends 2015, which was intended to present "an integrated
picture of the world of 2015" in its various environmental,
demographic and political dimensions. See:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/globaltrends2015/

Lately, in a further departure from the above-the-fray posture
characteristic of intelligence agencies, the NIC submitted this
work to outside review by a number of scientists,
non-governmental activists, and others, who found much to
criticize in the Global Trends report.

The review was initiated by the Environmental Change and
Security Project at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for
Scholars, and published in the Project's latest report, together
with a response from NIC acting chairman Ellen Laipson.

NIC emerged from the experience buffeted but hardly bruised. If
anything, the exercise proved beneficial all around and tended
to validate the NIC's extraordinary openness to outside
critique.

"We have been agreeably startled and pleased by the conversation
that Global Trends 2015 has stimulated," Ms. Laipson wrote, "and
the comments from this distinguished group introduce some new
ideas and issues into the debate."

The full exchange concerning the Global Trends 2015 report is
posted (in a 1.9 MB PDF file) here:

http://ecsp.si.edu/PDF/ECSP7-commentaries.pdf

Information about requesting a hard copy edition of the complete
text of the Environmental Change and Security Project Report,
Issue Number 7, may be found here:

http://ecsp.si.edu/ecsp7.htm


JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REORGANIZES

Declaring that "The fight against terrorism is now the first and
overriding priority of the Department of Justice," Attorney
General Ashcroft yesterday announced a reorganization of the
Justice Department that will redirect funding and personnel to
the counterterrorism mission.

In a November 8 memo, he identified ten goals that will guide
the reorganization. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-reorg-110801.html

In a related November 8 memo on "Prevention of Acts Threatening
Public Safety and National Security," the Attorney General
identified new initiatives in information sharing, analysis, and
interagency coordination. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-memo-110801.html


MONITORING ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATIONS

The announcement that the Justice Department reserves the right
to monitor certain attorney-client communications in order to
prevent terrorist acts set off alarms among civil libertarians
and others since it would appear to undermine a fundamental
constitutional protection.

See "U.S. Will Monitor Calls to Lawyers" in the Washington Post
here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64663-2001Nov8.ht
ml

The new policy was published in the Federal Register on October
31 and may be found here:

http://cryptome.org/bop103101.txt


SENATE APPROVES INTEL SPENDING

The Senate yesterday unanimously approved the intelligence
authorization act for FY 2002, including a "substantial
increase" in funding reported at around 7% over the current
year. The floor debate from the Congressional Record may be
viewed here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/s110801.html


BUSH ORDER DRAWS MORE CRITICISM

The Bush Administration continues to draw criticism for its
November 1 executive order that impedes release of historical
presidential records.

The new order "strikes the wrong balance," according to the
Washington Post. "By forcing the current administration to
defer to past presidents' wishes on secrecy, it could serve to
encumber public access to important historical material...."
See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64939-2001Nov8.ht
ml

"While secrecy is necessary to fight a war, it is not necessary
to run the country," wrote former Nixon aide John Dean in a
column published today.

"I can assure you from firsthand experience that a President
acting secretly usually does not have the best interest of
Americans in mind." See:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20011109.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
     subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:24:35 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >>It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >>newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >>interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >>Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >>cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >>Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >>secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >>similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >>lectures, but better documented.

 >>Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >>true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

 >This is the equivalent of saying, as barstool philosophers are
 >wont to do from time to time, that "Hitler [or Stalin, or the
 >Unabomber, or whoever; fill in the name of any maniac who comes
 >to mind] had some good ideas."  No, they didn't. They were just
 >crazy, evil bastards, and they had the ideas of crazy, evil
 >bastards.

Sorry Jerry, but I do not understand your analogy. Were you
saying that when barstool philosophers (or any people) share the
same ideas as the "crazy, evil bastards", then these ideas are
bad ones? Or were you suggesting that people who share these
ideas makes them crazy, evil bastards too? Do you at least allow
for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can have good ideas?
Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

As for Chuck Missler (co-author of the very interesting book on
UFOs/Aliens and producer of the 'Behold a Pale Horse' briefing
pack), his stuff is certainly better documented and worth
reading, although not much less controversial than Bill
Cooper's. During his visit to Toronto Chuck told me how we came
within minutes of the nuclear annihilation of two major cities
earlier this year in addition to many other very disturbing
things that have been suppressed or covered up for
understandable reasons.

 >The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
 >the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
 >somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
 >can ascribe to him is far, far right.

What can you present to justify this opinion you have about Bill
Cooper? One can express similar opinions about Steven Greer, or
George Bush or the Pope (or whoever else comes to your mind) but
unless they can back it up with solid numbers or facts, why
should I consider what you say any different to what debunkers
and uninformed skeptics make against the so-called UFO believers
and the alleged conspiracy mongers all the time?

I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
have brought us closer to the truth.


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

                    Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 19:41:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:31:26 -0500
Subject: Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake


Hello all:


Most of you probably recall some news of a pilot sighting in
Hungary recently: Source: Rense.com

http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

"World Exclusive! Stunning Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian
Military Pilot"

Dr. Richard F. Haines contacted a friend in Hungary for more
details. He was kind enough to share the response with me and
others, and gave permission for me to put this on the lists:

= = = = = =

(From Richard Haines)

Hello one and all,

As soon as I looked at the beautiful in-flight color photos from
J.Rense's website allegedly taken from a military jet on 29
Sept., 2001 in daylight I contacted an old friend who lives in
Budapest and sent him this same set of text and data. I just
received the following transmission from him and thought each of
you should know about it:

------

1. We called the Hungarian Air force, had a good conversation
then was switched to the guy on top of this, Mr Vissy. His
comments included:

A. Military planes do not and are not allowed to "fly over
Budapest."

B. No one flies a jet "on their free time" (This is not a big
country)

So, official response, it is a fake. Also, nothing found on the
internet in Hungarian regarding this.

------

R. F. Haines

= = = = = =


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 05:43:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:09:00 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 22:11:13 +0000

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas
 >>Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:49:29 -0500

 >>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should
 >>>be checked.

<snip>

 >>It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >>newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >>interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >>Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >>cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >>Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >>secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >>similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >>lectures, but better documented.

 >>Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >>true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

 >I'm not sure what you mean by "true knowledge," but of course
 >even insane, violent people like Cooper can occasionally be
 >right about something entirely by accident. So can utter
 >ignoramuses. So what? What does this prove? Certainly not that
 >we should take the Bill Cooper's of the world and their utterly
 >paranoid ideas seriously.

 >- Dick


Hello Sir Richard and all.

I should know better than to answer emails at this hour, but
what the heck.

It occurs to me that UFOs and all matters connected attract
psychotics like a porch lamp attracts moths.

Other paranormal studies, those I know much less about, have the
same problem of course, but seem somehow partially immune.

"Heavens Gate" did not congregate around Loch Ness Monster
matters. ESP has its believers and no lack of fuzz-brains, but
not with the same intensity UFOs seem to evoke.

On the one hand, you have people who are curious if not enrapt
in an apparent (UFO) mystery, and try to make some sense of it.
I prefer to include myself in this group.

On the other hand, there are those who at least try to use UFOs
as a way of validating their personal war on reality. (No need
for names, they announce themselves.)

Perhaps is is some quasi-religious thread, the thought of a
greater intelligence, which drives the moth-persons of the world
to ufology.

I wish they would select some other Lumiere dans la Nuit.
Cooper? I just feel sorry for the cop he shot, his family and
friends.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch [burp!]









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

             Re: Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:18:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:36:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake - Lehmberg


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 19:41:22 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Hungarian Saucer Video Probably Fake

 >Hello all:

 >Most of you probably recall some news of a pilot sighting in
 >Hungary recently: Source: Rense.com

 >http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

 >"World Exclusive! Stunning Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian
 >Military Pilot"

 >Dr. Richard F. Haines contacted a friend in Hungary for more
 >details. He was kind enough to share the response with me and
 >others, and gave permission for me to put this on the lists:

 >= = = = = =

 >(From Richard Haines)

 >Hello one and all,

 >As soon as I looked at the beautiful in-flight color photos from
 >J.Rense's website allegedly taken from a military jet on 29
 >Sept., 2001 in daylight I contacted an old friend who lives in
 >Budapest and sent him this same set of text and data. I just
 >received the following transmission from him and thought each of
 >you should know about it:

 >------

 >1. We called the Hungarian Air force, had a good conversation
 >then was switched to the guy on top of this, Mr Vissy. His
 >comments included:

 >A. Military planes do not and are not allowed to "fly over
 >Budapest."

 >B. No one flies a jet "on their free time" (This is not a big
 >country)

 >So, official response, it is a fake. Also, nothing found on the
 >internet in Hungarian regarding this.

 >------

 >R. F. Haines

 >= = = = = =


...ok Mr. Hatcher... Your subject line said "Probably Fake..."
I read Dr. Haines reporting on a third hand 'official response',
that does something less than straighten the sensible short 'n
curlies as official responses are have come to be regarded these
days, and is even further away from the "probably" you have too
quickly concluded... quite a leap... forgetting for a moment
that you attached the good Doctor's name to a "probably" he's
sure to disavow... a third hand 'official response' means
exactly bupkis...

Ufologically, you're like a conflicted corporate fund manager
quick to lower the percentage of return on a financial
investment while being too slow to raise it.....

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

                        EM Effects On Car Headlights?

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:00:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:39:31 -0500
Subject: EM Effects On Car Headlights?


Reading Jacques Vallee's 'Forbidden Science', I have come across
the following commentary:

(p. 292)
Mary-Lou told us in so many words that the committee (Condon)
was simply not interested in field investigations. They are
still pursuing the theory proposed by Wertheimer, one of their
psychologists, who has "discovered" that if the witnesses in a
car report that their headlights fail when they are close to a
UFO this is generally due to a perception phenomenon which is
related to Gestalt psychology: these people have simply been
blinded by globular lightning so that they don't realize that
their headlights are still on...

<snip>

"How come the light bulbs in the headlights have to be replaces
in so many such incidents?" I [Vallee] asked Levine
sarcastically

----------

I do not recall so many incidents where the headlights have had
to be replaced. Dry batteries yes, but no headlight bulbs. Can
any of you give me some examples?


LuisR







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 05:03:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:41:17 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Balaskas


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 22:11:13 +0000

<snip>

 >>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:19:17 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>The following list of accomplishments of W. M. Cooper should
 >>>be checked.

 >><snip>

 >>>William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The
 >>>book has become the best selling underground book of all
 >>>time. It is read and promoted by word of mouth by People of
 >>>all races, religions, and nationalities.

 >>It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >>newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >>interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >>Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >>cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >>Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >>secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >>similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >>lectures, but better documented.

 >>Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >>true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

 >Nick,

 >I'm not sure what you mean by "true knowledge," but of course
 >even insane, violent people like Cooper can occasionally be
 >right about something entirely by accident. So can utter
 >ignoramuses. So what? What does this prove? Certainly not that
 >we should take the Bill Cooper's of the world and their utterly
 >paranoid ideas seriously.

<snip>

Hi Richard.

I chose the expression "true knowledge" to distinguish it from
accepted knowledge which one obtains through means such as
reading common school textbooks or listening to Generals or
other figures of authority giving press briefings on T.V. The
facts we read or hear may not really be true but are
never-the-less accepted as such. For example, we accept that
Star Wars is not a defensive program against hostile E.T. aliens
because people we trust tell us that it is so, but is this
really true? I for one have reasons to think otherwise.

The problem is how does one distinguish true knowledge from
accepted knowledge? Would it become true knowledge if some
insider who works on Stars Wars tells us that it is intended to
defend against E.T. threats? How would we know if this insider
was actually telling the truth? Even if the insider was telling
the truth, the E.T. threat may not be from some hostile aliens
in UFOs as many of us would assume, but an E.T. threat from
rogue asteroids instead.

Although you do agree that "even insane, violent people" can at
times be right about some things, why must it be "entirely by
accident"? Do you really believe that insane people having the
same access to books, inside information, etc. as everyone else
can never be right? We all, of course, have our own beliefs,
agendas and different personalities but to dismiss outright what
one said simply because he's an "insane, violent" person is
wrong. In Bill Cooper's case, was it because he was an insane,
violent person that allowed us to dismiss his claims or was he
labeled an insane, violent person because his claims were not
acceptable to certain people?

I suspect there many be some people who do not know me well (as
I too did not know Bill Cooper) who may think I too am one of
your "ignoramuses" or possibly a "paranoid" person because of
what my views are regarding UFOs or world politics. Fortunately,
all views no matter how weird are welcome where I work at the
university and also on UFO UpDates where I sometimes share them
too. These views can then (and are) be put to the test. If after
much research, critical thinking and debate these views still
have some merits or basis in fact, they may even further human
"true knowledge". If they don't we can discard them.

Let us put Bill Cooper's claims regarding UFOs to the test
ignoring any personality faults he may have had or later
developed.


Nick Balaskas









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 10

             Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:35:39 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:47:23 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 05:43:10 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 22:11:13 +0000

 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >>>It is interesting to note that the editor of the monthly
 >>>newsletter 'Personal Update' and co-author of the very
 >>>interesting book 'Alien Encounters - The Secret Behind the UFO
 >>>Phenomenon', Chuck Missler, has a briefing pack (two audio
 >>>cassettes and study notes) that is also titled 'Behold A Pale
 >>>Horse'. It discusses such things as biochemical terrorism, the
 >>>secret government agenda of population control, etc. - all very
 >>>similar themes to those found in Bill Cooper's book and
 >>>lectures, but better documented.

 >>>Even "crazy" and "dangerous" people like Bill Cooper can have
 >>>true knowledge of and be correct about some things...

 >>I'm not sure what you mean by "true knowledge," but of course
 >>even insane, violent people like Cooper can occasionally be
 >>right about something entirely by accident. So can utter
 >>ignoramuses. So what? What does this prove? Certainly not that
 >>we should take the Bill Cooper's of the world and their utterly
 >>paranoid ideas seriously.

 >>- Dick

 >Hello Sir Richard and all.

 >I should know better than to answer emails at this hour, but
 >what the heck.

 >It occurs to me that UFOs and all matters connected attract
 >psychotics like a porch lamp attracts moths.

 >Other paranormal studies, those I know much less about, have the
 >same problem of course, but seem somehow partially immune.

 >"Heavens Gate" did not congregate around Loch Ness Monster
 >matters. ESP has its believers and no lack of fuzz-brains, but
 >not with the same intensity UFOs seem to evoke.

 >On the one hand, you have people who are curious if not enrapt
 >in an apparent (UFO) mystery, and try to make some sense of it.
 >I prefer to include myself in this group.

 >On the other hand, there are those who at least try to use UFOs
 >as a way of validating their personal war on reality. (No need
 >for names, they announce themselves.)

 >Perhaps is is some quasi-religious thread, the thought of a
 >greater intelligence, which drives the moth-persons of the world
 >to ufology.

 >I wish they would select some other Lumiere dans la Nuit.
 >Cooper? I just feel sorry for the cop he shot, his family and
 >friends.


Dear Larry (burp) Hatcher, List and EBK,

Due to the graphic nature of this post, it is suggested that all
nuts, crazoids, reactionaries (oops, I may be one of them ...)
leave the room. This includes anyone who abhors abhorence and
those who abhor abhorers and snorers even... beCAUSe this is
gonna be a real tail twister.

That UFOs and related attract people who are maligned, laughed
at and generally made the fool, makes some of them paranoid.
'Course, smokin dope don't help. Which is why I am writing this.
I have decided to go back to beer, having left that wonderful
elixir in order to sell Gripple. In my return to beer, I
discovered... make that rediscovered, something called "Corona
Extra." I suggest to all those nut cases who have been made so
by people snickering at them - even before they came out of
their closets, people laugh at the mere mention of Meunchen
UFO's and the entitties what make 'em go... that they switch
from swish (sorry Kevin Randel .. Rattle, Randle... couldn't
resist), I suggest they switch from substances galore to...
BEER!

Since I have had to deal with much of late, too much in factoid,
not to mention a pooping factory in the form of a small breed
bulldog I have aptly renamed PeePee le Poop (having come from
Pepe le Pew)... I stole a bottle from my painting contractor,
who does his best work whilst under the affluence of Carona
Extra.

It is wonderful. God made the faithful in order to enjoy Mexican
beer. I drink the Cardinal Puff for the second time tonight.
Icey cold.

I see your (burb) and raise you one more.

Jim Mortellaro
Converted Fresh whine drinker (burpety burp)









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 11

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 23:41:08 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:42:37 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Gates



 >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >As for Chuck Missler (co-author of the very interesting book on
 >UFOs/Aliens and producer of the 'Behold a Pale Horse' briefing
 >pack), his stuff is certainly better documented and worth
 >reading, although not much less controversial than Bill
 >Cooper's. During his visit to Toronto Chuck told me how we came
 >within minutes of the nuclear annihilation of two major cities
 >earlier this year in addition to many other very disturbing
 >things that have been suppressed or covered up for
 >understandable reasons.

So other than 'Chuck said', did he present any other so called
evidence about his claim of being two cities allegedly close to
nuclear annihilation?

Kind of like "Well Cooper said..." and a favorite of some in
years gone by: "Well my top-drawer, top-level,
never-told-a-lie-in-their-life, intelligence community sources
said...."

<snip>

 >I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
 >seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
 >questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
 >have brought us closer to the truth.

I never met Cooper and from the sounds of it from the people who
did, the story got twisted, changed and added to every time he
gave a public speaking engagement.

Cheers,

Robert









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 11

                          Psychics Join The Manhunt

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:45:33 -0500
Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt


Source: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/11/stiusausa01012.h
tml?

Psychics Join The Manhunt
The Sunday Times, U.K.
November 11, 2001

US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
future attacks and to find Osama Bin Laden. The recruits, known
as "remote viewers", claim to be able to visualise happenings in
distant places by using paranormal powers.

The US government established a remote viewing programme, known
as Stargate, in the 1970s in an attempt to utilise the skills
claimed by psychics to combat communism. The programme, at the
Stanford Research Institute in California, was shut down in 1995
after the end of the cold war.

Now, however, US intelligence agencies are reactivating some of
their old paranormal spies.

Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
remote viewers, confirmed that the FBI had asked the company to
predict likely targets of future terrorist attacks.

"Our reports suggest a sports stadium could be a likely target,"
she said.

The FBI and CIA refused to comment but confirmed investigators
have been told to "think out of the box".

Angela Thompson-Smith and Lyn Buchanan, former members of
Stargate, said that they, too, had been approached.

---










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 11

                    Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 05:02:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:40:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Myers


 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >Source:

 >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/11/stiusausa01012.html?

 >Psychics Join The Manhunt
 >The Sunday Times, U.K.
 >November 11, 2001

 >US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
 >future attacks and to find Osama Bin Laden. The recruits, known
 >as "remote viewers", claim to be able to visualise happenings in
 >distant places by using paranormal powers.

 >The US government established a remote viewing programme, known
 >as Stargate, in the 1970s in an attempt to utilise the skills
 >claimed by psychics to combat communism. The programme, at the
 >Stanford Research Institute in California, was shut down in 1995
 >after the end of the cold war.

 >Now, however, US intelligence agencies are reactivating some of
 >their old paranormal spies.

 >Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
 >remote viewers, confirmed that the FBI had asked the company to
 >predict likely targets of future terrorist attacks.

 >"Our reports suggest a sports stadium could be a likely target,"
 >she said.

 >The FBI and CIA refused to comment but confirmed investigators
 >have been told to "think out of the box".

 >Angela Thompson-Smith and Lyn Buchanan, former members of
 >Stargate, said that they, too, had been approached.

 >---

I find it hard to believe that the Feds would allow any of these
people to comment publicly about having been contacted. I also
find it hard to beliee that the Feds would contact Prudence
"There Was A UFO With That Comet" Calabrese.

A stadium? If you make enough logical guesses, you'll be right
sooner or later... unless you're Ed Dames.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 11

                    Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 08:15:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:42:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - McCoy


Hello, all.


 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >Source:

 >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/11/stiusausa01012.html?

 >Psychics Join The Manhunt
 >The Sunday Times, U.K.
 >November 11, 2001

 >US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
 >future attacks and to find Osama Bin Laden. The recruits, known
 >as "remote viewers", claim to be able to visualise happenings in
 >distant places by using paranormal powers.

Oh, I can't wait for Art Bell to get into this one.

 >The US government established a remote viewing programme, known
 >as Stargate, in the 1970s in an attempt to utilise the skills
 >claimed by psychics to combat communism. The programme, at the
 >Stanford Research Institute in California, was shut down in 1995
 >after the end of the cold war.

 >Now, however, US intelligence agencies are reactivating some of
 >their old paranormal spies.

 >Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
 >remote viewers, confirmed that the FBI had asked the company to
 >predict likely targets of future terrorist attacks.

 >"Our reports suggest a sports stadium could be a likely target,"
 >she said.

"Black Sunday" anyone? This has been done before.

 >The FBI and CIA refused to comment but confirmed investigators
 >have been told to "think out of the box".

So does Tom Clancy or for that matter,Clive Cussler.

 >Angela Thompson-Smith and Lyn Buchanan, former members of
 >Stargate, said that they, too, had been approached.

Using my remote viewing capabilities, I predict that Ed Dames
will appear on Art Bell saying he is working for a Goverment
agency, and he knows where Osama bin Laden is, and what he likes
on his Oatmeal.


GT McCoy









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 11

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:42:52 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Clark


 >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid


Nick,

 >Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >have good ideas?
 >Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
beholder.

 >>The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
 >>the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
 >>somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
 >>can ascribe to him is far, far right.

 >What can you present to justify this opinion you have about Bill
 >Cooper?

Oh, please. Read what the man said, and study his personal
history. Read some _actual_ post-World War II history, as
opposed to the lunatic ranting Cooper was peddling (and making a
lot of money from, it bears noting). You can also read the entry
"Dark Side" in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. (1998), for the
dismal background of Cooper's journey into insanity. Peter
Brookesmith has an excellent treatment in Chapter 6 of his UFO:
The Government Files (1996).

 >I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
 >seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
 >questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
 >have brought us closer to the truth.

Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
gullible and the frightened away from truth, not to mention
sanity and common sense. Ufology has seen many of them over the
course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

Jerry Clark










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:50:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:23:06 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Felder


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600


 >>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>have good ideas?
 >>Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

 >No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
 >have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
 >do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
 >beholder.

Crazy, evil bastards usually have crazy, evil ideas. While I
tend to think that "evil" is a term that is bandied around a bit
too much these days, I don't think "crazy" is a stretch of the
imagination when talking about Cooper.


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:47:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:25:01 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
 >gullible

..... remembering theat people are prone to gullibility for more
reasons than just their own miserable faults. They're leery in
the suspicious example of self serving institutions, and with
some concern look for alternative explanations to the
turbulences of their lives that they don't find at *home* in the
mainstream anymore. When Cooper starts to look like he hangs
together a little better than a *likely* report from a jealous
mainstream, that's when you begin to suspect that you've been
dealt a truly bogus hand.

 >and the frightened

..... And they'd be a lot less frightened if they were getting
anything remotely resembling the straight poop from those same
self serving institutions that artlessly manipulate them about
the whats and whys of stuff that threatens them in their
lives...

 >away from truth

..... and no one has a dead lock nut on that, to my knowledge.
But we know that if it _can_ be, then it _will_ be, eventually.

 >, not to mention
 >sanity and common sense.

There's a panoply of different potentials for degraded sanity of
all flavors when your society's perceived as hijacked, sir, and
the expressions of individuals regarding that threat are likely
to be creatively divergent. They always have been. Thank g_d for
that. And one man's common sense can be another's privileged
assumption, and still another's artful dodge. Some sociopaths
can just ooze *common sense...*

 >Ufology has seen many of them over the
 >course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

Still... what is it that provided the validity for Cooper,
that's the thing that slips off furtively into the unadmitted
shadows. Forget Cooper, what _makes_ Cooper.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

                Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:47:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >Nick,

 >>Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>have good ideas?
 >>Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

 >No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
 >have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
 >do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
 >beholder.

 >>>The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
 >>>the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
 >>>somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
 >>>can ascribe to him is far, far right.

 >>What can you present to justify this opinion you have about Bill
 >>Cooper?

 >Oh, please. Read what the man said, and study his personal
 >history. Read some _actual_ post-World War II history, as
 >opposed to the lunatic ranting Cooper was peddling (and making a
 >lot of money from, it bears noting). You can also read the entry
 >"Dark Side" in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. (1998), for the
 >dismal background of Cooper's journey into insanity. Peter
 >Brookesmith has an excellent treatment in Chapter 6 of his UFO:
 >The Government Files (1996).

 >>I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
 >>seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
 >>questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
 >>have brought us closer to the truth.

 >Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
 >gullible and the frightened away from truth, not to mention
 >sanity and common sense. Ufology has seen many of them over the
 >course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

 >Jerry Clark

Jerry & List,

I strongly second these comments and won't bother to reply to
Nick's reply to me apparently embracing a very strange
epistemology that would have us hang on the every word of
Charles Manson, Squeaky Fromme, William Cooper, and other
mentally challenged individuals instead of listening to sane,
rational, well-informed people.


- Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:30:17 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid


 >>Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>have good ideas?
 >>Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

 >No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
 >have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
 >do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
 >beholder.

Hitler saved the German economy, put people to work (some
against their will but so what). Mussolini made the Trains run
on time and was an international hero for a while (Gershwin's
"you're the Top" had a line You're top, you're the
Mussolini!''). Stalin was popular too -on a plie of millions of
skulls. Crazy,evil bastards-amen.

Cooper had lots of followers - I knew a few in my old home town
of Port Orford, Oregon. However he had a gift of P.O.ing people
that if Hitler had that he would have been reduced to a greasy
spot on some beer hall floor by one of his former supporters.

 >>>The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
 >>>the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
 >>>somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
 >>>can ascribe to him is far, far right.

 >>What can you present to justify this opinion you have about Bill
 >>Cooper?

 >Oh, please. Read what the man said, and study his personal
 >history. Read some _actual_ post-World War II history, as
 >opposed to the lunatic ranting Cooper was peddling (and making a
 >lot of money from, it bears noting). You can also read the entry
 >"Dark Side" in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. (1998), for the
 >dismal background of Cooper's journey into insanity. Peter
 >Brookesmith has an excellent treatment in Chapter 6 of his UFO:
 >The Government Files (1996).

Having read both "Mien Kanf" and "Behold a Pale Horse" Hitler
was a better writer. But both belong in the same bag of horse
ah, fertilizer.

Before I joined the list there was a small group of people in
Port Orford who held Cooper almost at the level of Prophet, and
his droolings and rantings level of Gospel. They were lost souls
IMHO. One was a friend of ours that was driven into a drunken
haze by Cooper's rantings - there was no reasoning with him
about the truth. Including a living example of the truth of WWll
and beyond. My late father in-law who really was a part of the
real thing. Thanks to Cooper, to him there was no hope.

 >>I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
 >>seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
 >>questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
 >>have brought us closer to the truth.

 >Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
 >gullible and the frightened away from truth, not to mention
 >sanity and common sense. Ufology has seen many of them over the
 >course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

Having seen it actually happen to gullible,fraglie souls ,I
agree.


GT McCoy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

                   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 02:18:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:31:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Easton


 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:45:33 -0500
 >Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt

Kenny highlighted:

 >The Sunday Times, U.K.
 >November 11, 2001

 >US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
 >future attacks...

This remarkable ability presumably only existed after September
11th...

 >Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
 >remote viewers...

"Prudence has been a scientist since her teen years when she
appeared on the television show 'That's Incredible' performing
brain transplants on ants...".

Was she ever able to successfully swap back again?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

                               New Research CD

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:05:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:33:33 -0500
Subject: New Research CD


Hi Folks,

Hope all is well with everyone, I would like to mention my
new CD for sale on my site.

For more detail follow the link:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/UFOResearchCD.htm

All the best,

Roy..








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:05:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:08:28 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>>have good ideas?
 >>>Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

 >>No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
 >>do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
 >>beholder.

 >Hitler saved the German economy,

<snip>

 >Mussolini made the Trains run on time and was.. [a turd]

<snip>

 >Stalin was popular too [applaud or die.....]

 >Cooper had lots of followers - ]

I hate the very word "followers". It implies sheep who cannot
think for themselves, and all that this might imply.

It took what? 500 million years, to find a human race capable of
reason? Something like that.

And what is the result? Sanity, logic and reason?

Or, do you prefer lasagna? Myself, I like a good lasagna, if its
done properly. [You don't have to marry the girl, but you're in
deep-doo if you do some dirt.]

Lasagna, like other forms of pasta, neatly skirts around the
issue of whether you belong with Lehmberg types, or can be set
free without a leash.

Spaghetti allows one to disinvolve oneself from the squirming
neurons, not to mention onions, garlic and even mushrooms which
haunt all but the most dismal Mormons and Presbyterians.

Maybe its macaroni I like. My Mom used to stuff it with American
cheese, but I suspect it has higher purpose.

I think it was to help the kids find normality, some sense of
self and yet a good healthy socialization (Gawd I hate that
word!) with some good hearted kids from some other families.

If it weren't for the Eye-talians there would be many more snots
around here, and fewer good people.


Best wishes

- Larry


PS: Please don't any of you Eye-talians take offense!


- - - - - -









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

                    Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:15:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:10:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt
 >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 02:18:22 -0000

 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:45:33 -0500
 >>Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >Kenny highlighted:

 >>The Sunday Times, U.K.
 >>November 11, 2001

 >>US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
 >>future attacks...

 >This remarkable ability presumably only existed after September
 >11th...

 >>Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
 >>remote viewers...

 >"Prudence has been a scientist since her teen years when she
 >appeared on the television show 'That's Incredible' performing
 >brain transplants on ants...".

 >Was she ever able to successfully swap back again?

 >James Easton.
 >E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
 >www.ufoworld.co.uk

- - - -

Dear Mr. Easton:

I have recently been selected for jury duty in this (San Mateo
county, California) county.

No psychic predicted this, nor did any of them indicate which
specie of malfeasant was caught malfeasing all over the place.

As a fellow skeptic, a little bit in any case, may I suggest
that the likely criminal could have chosen a more profitable
venue?

I hope you can help verify my predictions for the outcome of
this legal matter.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

             Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:52:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:13:21 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600

 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >Nick,

 >>Do you at least allow for possiblity that crazy, evil bastards can
 >>have good ideas?
 >>Who decides who are or are not crazy, evil bastards anyway?

 >No, I do not allow for the idea that crazy, evil bastards can
 >have good ideas. Nor do I allow for the idea, as apparently you
 >do, that crazy, evil bastards are only in the eye of the
 >beholder.

 >>>The chance that Cooper was right about anything, beyond possibly
 >>>the price of gas (a substance he expended in great quantity), is
 >>>somewhere between virtual and absolute zero. The only right you
 >>>can ascribe to him is far, far right.

 >>What can you present to justify this opinion you have about Bill
 >>Cooper?

 >Oh, please. Read what the man said, and study his personal
 >history. Read some _actual_ post-World War II history, as
 >opposed to the lunatic ranting Cooper was peddling (and making a
 >lot of money from, it bears noting). You can also read the entry
 >"Dark Side" in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. (1998), for the
 >dismal background of Cooper's journey into insanity. Peter
 >Brookesmith has an excellent treatment in Chapter 6 of his UFO:
 >The Government Files (1996).

 >>I have never met Bill Cooper or took most of what he had to say
 >>seriously, but he did influence many researchers to ask more
 >>questions and to dig deeper into claims regarding UFOs which
 >>have brought us closer to the truth.

 >Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
 >gullible and the frightened away from truth, not to mention
 >sanity and common sense. Ufology has seen many of them over the
 >course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

 >Jerry Clark

Nick,

Back around 1990 when the Cooper - Lear activity was at a peak
there was a newsletter put out by Cooper that gave a pretty
clear look at his personality. I was pretty disgusted at the
low levels he operated on. I don't have them but maybe you can
find a copy that will show you what that man was really like. I
don't know if it is worth the space on UpDates but if anyone has
those newsletters they may want to post excerpts.

To me, the most disturbing thing would be when Cooper gave a
raving talk of nonsense at a UFO convention and I would see the
audience give a standing ovation. By the nature of Cooper's
paranoid talk and the audience response, it creepily gave me the
same disgust as if Adolph Hitler just gave a speech to the
nascent Nazi party. By his antisemitism proclamations alone,
Cooper would have made a good Nazi. I am sad that his paranoia
led to the police injury.


Josh Goldstein










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 12

                                     Re:

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:33:15 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: Re:


Dear All,

The British UFO Studies Centre, in conjunction the Community
Centre, Waterloo Rd, Runcorn, Cheshire, proudly presents the
Dave Kelly Memorial Conference. All proceeds to the Cat's
Protection League, Dave's chosen charity.

Speakers: Steve Jones, Britain's first Pagan Magistrate, on
Hooded Entities, Carolyn Buckley, Psychic and Paranormalist, on
Ghosts and Poltergeists in Cheshire, Eric Morris, BUFOSC, UFO
Update and Tim Matthews on Rendlesham Forest and other
mysteries.

A great line up and all for �5, supported by overhead and slide
projection. New UFO documents revealed _plus_ Rendlesham, what
they never told you and what you never thought you'd find out. A
completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
perhaps the British UFO story of the year.

Should be a good day, the first of a series of lecture days in
Cheshire. BUFOSC holds regular events at the centre, many well
attended.

The late Dave Kelly was a researcher of ancient mysteries, a
friend of Eric Von Danicken and a great friend to BUFOSC. A
regular attender at meetings and events for many years, members
of BUFOSC supported Dave through the painful last moments of his
battle against Cancer. Members of BUFOSC who attended his
funeral, including his primary carer Eric Morris, vowed to
continue and complete his work. Dave left BUFOSC considerable
resources to continue his work, and we shall not let him down.

Dave's chosen charity was the Cat's Protection League. All
profits from this and other BUFOSC events go straight to the
charity.

We hope that you will support this unique event.


Many thanks,

Tim Matthews
per British UFO Studies Centre






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                   'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:33:15 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 05:21:53 -0500
Subject: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01


Dear All,

The British UFO Studies Centre, in conjunction the Community
Centre, Waterloo Rd, Runcorn, Cheshire, proudly presents the
Dave Kelly Memorial Conference. All proceeds to the Cat's
Protection League, Dave's chosen charity.

Speakers: Steve Jones, Britain's first Pagan Magistrate, on
Hooded Entities, Carolyn Buckley, Psychic and Paranormalist, on
Ghosts and Poltergeists in Cheshire, Eric Morris, BUFOSC, UFO
Update and Tim Matthews on Rendlesham Forest and other
mysteries.

A great line up and all for �5, supported by overhead and slide
projection. New UFO documents revealed _plus_ Rendlesham, what
they never told you and what you never thought you'd find out. A
completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
perhaps the British UFO story of the year.

Should be a good day, the first of a series of lecture days in
Cheshire. BUFOSC holds regular events at the centre, many well
attended.

The late Dave Kelly was a researcher of ancient mysteries, a
friend of Eric Von Danicken and a great friend to BUFOSC. A
regular attender at meetings and events for many years, members
of BUFOSC supported Dave through the painful last moments of his
battle against Cancer. Members of BUFOSC who attended his
funeral, including his primary carer Eric Morris, vowed to
continue and complete his work. Dave left BUFOSC considerable
resources to continue his work, and we shall not let him down.

Dave's chosen charity was the Cat's Protection League. All
profits from this and other BUFOSC events go straight to the
charity.

We hope that you will support this unique event.


Many thanks,

Tim Matthews
per British UFO Studies Centre





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                   Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:36:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:53:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Ledger


 >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:15:45 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt
 >>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 02:18:22 -0000

 >>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 01:36:37 -0500
 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:45:33 -0500
 >>>Subject: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >>Kenny highlighted:

 >>>The Sunday Times, U.K.
 >>>November 11, 2001

 >>>US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict
 >>>future attacks...

 >>This remarkable ability presumably only existed after September
 >>11th...

 >>>Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14
 >>>remote viewers...

 >>"Prudence has been a scientist since her teen years when she
 >>appeared on the television show 'That's Incredible' performing
 >>brain transplants on ants...".

 >>Was she ever able to successfully swap back again?

 >>James Easton.
 >>E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
 >>www.ufoworld.co.uk

 >- - - -

 >Dear Mr. Easton:

 >I have recently been selected for jury duty in this (San Mateo
 >county, California) county.

 >No psychic predicted this, nor did any of them indicate which
 >specie of malfeasant was caught malfeasing all over the place.

 >As a fellow skeptic, a little bit in any case, may I suggest
 >that the likely criminal could have chosen a more profitable
 >venue?

 >I hope you can help verify my predictions for the outcome of
 >this legal matter.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch


Hi Larry,

A couple of years ago I read a newspaper article about a group of
psychics who were attending a convention in Las Vegas and during the the
convention they went on a bus tour. The bus was involved in an accident.
Several were killed and there were others injured. Shouldn't they have
know this was going to happen and avoided the bus tour at the outset?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Best,

Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

              Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:18:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:06:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Spy's Admit It: There are no Aliens Out There
 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:22:09 -0700

 >>Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 03:15:03 -0500
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There

 >Considering it took humankind hundreds of thousands of years
 >just to recognize that the Earth orbited Sol and that unseen
 >microbes brought illness, is 50 years long enough to
 >definitively state that Earth is not being observed or studied
 >from afar?

 >As Hubble, etc. scan the universe are we not, in effect, an
 >alien species observing other solar systems or galaxies that may
 >harbor intelligent life?

 >As our newest Mars probe orbits, takes digital images, etc., are
 >we not an alien species visiting and observing? If there are
 >microbe life forms on Mars, are we not intelligent life
 >observing lesser life forms? If microbe life exists on Mars,
 >does it recognize the wreckage of our earlier "craft" scattered
 >among it?

 >Descartes stated, "I think, therefore I am." Rumor states that
 >God told Moses, "I am, that I am." Methinks that lack or refusal
 >of vision as to possibility and probability are as destructive
 >as political correctness taken to the extreme.

 >For "spies" to categorically state that "there are no aliens out
 >there" after only 50 years, shows failure to think, reason and
 >rationalize, because the methodologies used may not have been
 >the correct ones to acertain the truth. Besides, when does just
 >reading the "reports" give cause to solve?

 >Wendy Connors

Hi Wendy et al,

I found the word "admit" curious. Admit to whom. Their admission
makes it look as if the govs has been touting alien existance
all along while science and not a few paranomalistshave been
refuting the possibility.

Don Ledger









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

             Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:43:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:11:03 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 - Hale


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:33:15 EST
 >Subject: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >New UFO documents revealed _plus_ Rendlesham, what
 >they never told you and what you never thought you'd find out. A
 >completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
 >perhaps the British UFO story of the year.

Tim,

Who are "they" in your above statement? And is this the new file
releases from MoD on rendlesham?

Hasn't rendlesham been the UK UFO story for some  years?


Regards,

Roy









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:44:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:13:22 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:05:29 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 >>>>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:59:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >Lasagna, like other forms of pasta, neatly skirts around the
 >issue of whether you belong with Lehmberg types, or can be set
 >free without a leash.


...While it might be argued that I sometimes tend to the
contentious and passionate exuberance, it is the unusual debate
that keeps my interest, encourages my contribution, and from
which I (like you presumably) derive some small advancement...

In this forum, and out of respect for _most_ of the members and
its intrepid moderator, I take pains to refrain from casual
insult, cast aspirations, and blithe offensiveness as techniques
that are patently non productive. That being said, your flaccid
pasta reference was obscure, clumsy, abstruse, and certainly
blandly indifferent to the continuance of the aforementioned
debate.

Moreover, the moment you feel competent to snap a leash on this
particular hound... Mr. Hatch (?) ...well hoss, you c'mon down.
<evil grin>

<snip>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                         Cooper Is Room Temperature

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:49:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:14:40 -0500
Subject: Cooper Is Room Temperature


Greetings List,

I have been following the thread on the police shooting of Bill
Cooper. Given Cooper's personality, alcohol abuse and his
general skewered view of the world, it was inevitable.

I completed the very first expose on Cooper for UFO Magazine
(USA) in early 1990. It was a two parter called the
"Whistleblowers" series. Later for the British magazine, The
ForteanTimes I completed a two part expose on Cooper and the JFK
Assassination story. Some of you old timers will recall Cooper
claiming the Secret Service Driver is alleged by Cooper to have
fired the fatal head shot into President Kennedy. 10 years ago
it was all the "conspiracy rage" of the moment.

The reason I write this message is to offer to send to anyone,
via email, these stories. If you would like to read them please
email at decker@ufomag.com and use for a header;

Cooper is Room Temperature.

I think you will find these exposes of interest.

--
Thought for the Day
--
Never attribute to malice
that which can be better explained by stupidity!
Don Ecker
http://www.ufomag.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                        More Sadness From New York :(

From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:10:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:15:31 -0500
Subject: More Sadness From New York :(


Hi All,

My son and daughter-in-law moved to their new apartment in
Rockaway last week. The new digs (making room for a new baby!)
is located just 20 blocks from where the jet crashed. Everyone
is ok thank God. Phone lines have been jammed with calls from
out of state. I can't begin to tell you how apprehensive I am
about their choice of location in light of yesterday's tragedy.

An old friend of mine, a fellow I grew up with, (from my old
neighborhood, Washington Heights in Manhattan) did not fare so
well. His mother, sister, and his brother-in-law all perished in
that accident. His sister and brother-in-law leave behind five
children. Now parent-less.

So sad. Especially following so closely on the heels of the
September 11th tragedy. Nerves are jangled and recently closed
wounds reopened. Hope there's some light down at the end of the
tunnel. This is all getting to be a bit much.

My heart-felt prayers go out to the families who have suffered
the loss of a loved one. I'm still reeling from my own loss this
year. Attending a three casket wake is not something I look
forward to.

Pray for Peace.

Regards,

John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:47:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:49:54 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01 -


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01
 >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:43:28 -0000

 >>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:33:15 EST
 >>Subject: 'Rendlesham Revelation' In UK Nov 17-01
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>New UFO documents revealed _plus_ Rendlesham, what
 >>they never told you and what you never thought you'd find out. A
 >>completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
 >>perhaps the British UFO story of the year.

 >Tim,

 >Who are "they" in your above statement?

...Not answering for Mr. Matthews, but that's a question always
asked like it doesn't really have an answer. It does.

"They", are the privileged arbitrary, the unelected, and far too
many of the elected. "They," are those that have, and having
had, would keep on having despite an aggregate detriment to the
common good of "have nots." "They," are in possession of
information that would credit or be to the advantage of anyone
who knew, specifically outlining why most know not. "They" are
the secret keepers. "They" are the jealous manipulators of the
mainstream, the covetous who encourage bland employees while
they discourage critical thinkers. "They" are the ones with
hidden agendas, duplicitous plans, and secret programs. "They"
are the few willing to profit at the expense of the many. "They"
are above the law, outside reasonable ethics, and hold the many
beneath their privileged contempt...

Everyone knows what is meant by "they"; it requires no citation.
"They" are the ones having none of the concern for you that
"they" would _demand_ of you for them. I'd imagine that "they"
would keep us from knowing all manners of interesting stuff...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                    Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:53:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:53:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt - Hatch


 >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:36:46 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt

 >>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:15:45 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychics Join The Manhunt

<snip>

 >Hi Larry,

 >A couple of years ago I read a newspaper article about a group
 >of psychics who were attending a convention in Las Vegas and
 >during the the convention they went on a bus tour. The bus was
 >involved in an accident. Several were killed and there were
 >others injured. Shouldn't they have know this was going to
 >happen and avoided the bus tour at the outset? Inquiring minds
 >want to know.


Hi Don:

I would like to see how they do at a Las Vegas dice or roulette
game, where they aren't allowed to cheat.

Brain transplants on ants! (See Jim's post) Amazing..


Best wishes

- Larry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:56:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:55:31 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hatch


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:44:36 -0600

 >>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:05:29 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

<snip>

 >>Lasagna, like other forms of pasta, neatly skirts around the
 >>issue of whether you belong with Lehmberg types, or can be set
 >>free without a leash.

 >...While it might be argued that I sometimes tend to the
 >contentious and passionate exuberance, it is the unusual debate
 >that keeps my interest, encourages my contribution, and from
 >which I (like you presumably) derive some small advancement...

 >In this forum, and out of respect for _most_ of the members and
 >its intrepid moderator, I take pains to refrain from casual
 >insult, cast aspirations, and blithe offensiveness as techniques
 >that are patently non productive. That being said, your flaccid
 >pasta reference was obscure, clumsy, abstruse, and certainly
 >blandly indifferent to the continuance of the aforementioned
 >debate.

 >Moreover, the moment you feel competent to snap a leash on this
 >particular hound... Mr. Hatch (?) ...well hoss, you c'mon down.
 ><evil grin>

 ><snip>

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Sorry Alfred:


I agree that was uncalled for

- Larry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

             Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:29:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:59:03 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Goldstein


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:47:01 -0600

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

<snip>

 >>Quite the contrary. It's people like Cooper who lead the
 >>gullible

 >..... remembering theat people are prone to gullibility for more
 >reasons than just their own miserable faults. They're leery in
 >the suspicious example of self serving institutions, and with
 >some concern look for alternative explanations to the
 >turbulences of their lives that they don't find at *home* in the
 >mainstream anymore. When Cooper starts to look like he hangs
 >together a little better than a *likely* report from a jealous
 >mainstream, that's when you begin to suspect that you've been
 >dealt a truly bogus hand.

 >>and the frightened

 >..... And they'd be a lot less frightened if they were getting
 >anything remotely resembling the straight poop from those same
 >self serving institutions that artlessly manipulate them about
 >the whats and whys of stuff that threatens them in their
 >lives...

 >>away from truth
 >>..... and no one has a dead lock nut on that, to my knowledge.
 >But we know that if it _can_ be, then it _will_ be, eventually.

 >>not to mention sanity and common sense.

 >There's a panoply of different potentials for degraded sanity of
 >all flavors when your society's perceived as hijacked, sir, and
 >the expressions of individuals regarding that threat are likely
 >to be creatively divergent. They always have been. Thank g_d for
 >that. And one man's common sense can be another's privileged
 >assumption, and still another's artful dodge. Some sociopaths
 >can just ooze *common sense...*

 >>Ufology has seen many of them over the
 >>course of its history, and Cooper was as bad as they come.

 >Still... what is it that provided the validity for Cooper,
 >that's the thing that slips off furtively into the unadmitted
 >shadows. Forget Cooper, what _makes_ Cooper.


Hi Alf,

To answer your question of "what made Cooper?":

Paranoid Schizophrenia. His imbalanced neurotransmitters made
his brain go /////////;l;l;'?'[]=;][l,',, :

I don't remember if you saw him perform live or met him
personally. If you did, then I fail to see how even you would
try to defend him. I just posted that if you would just look at
his newsletter and learn what he has done to other people you
would not ask that question. I sure hope you don't harbor any
illusions that he died as some sort of counter cultural hero in
that police shootout. He was as crazed as a rabid dog and just
baiting the police to get into a gunfight. The crazed Cooper was
too cowardly to surrender and instead shot a good family man,
his wife, and kids. All I want to do is forget about Cooper and
I hope everyone else does.

Alf, sheepishly speaking, sometimes you just get my goat. That's
in plain English with a direct and profound meaning.

You crack me up. Your positions on what is happening on this
planet, in the cosmos, and its relationship to other humans is
that most people have been manipulated by the controlled mass
media propaganda machinery serving those who hijacked our
society. They do not see things as do you and a handful of
visionaries. You have created your own duality that all mass
media are controlled together and you have kicked them all over
to the dark side of the fence. On the white side of the fence
are you and the alternative media to set the people and the
planet free.

Alf, this is the information age, A great many prople are on the
internet and access just about any point of view on just about
every subject, except government secrets. Thousands of book
titles of all kinds are in print. A lot of people also look at
both mass media and alternative media then do something
miraculous, think for themselves and care for all else.

Just who are these hijackers of our society, in your opinon?

I never met John Ford. I just read a lot of things those years
and saw some video, etc. My question to you is: Why do the
courts and a lot of people in the UFO field think he has a
mental problem? Does that add strong fuel to your fire against
those "self serving entities" who have manipulated the people
through the mass media?

Alf, maybe some people are gullible simply because they have not
learned to think the things through on a deeper level before
they are hooked. People who prey on gullible people have a well
developed appeal to emotions and fears that can be overpowering
to people who don't have a strong sense of self. They are
looking for something and the emotional pull blots out reason,
so now they feel they belong, empowered members of something
that helps with their fears. They are too gullible to see it is
a foolish path, one that usually ends up with its members having
personally suffered from its demands.


Bye for now,

Josh










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:09:07 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

<snip>

 >Before I joined the List there was a small group of people in
 >Port Orford who held Cooper almost at the level of Prophet, and
 >his droolings and rantings level of Gospel. They were lost souls
 >IMHO. One was a friend of ours that was driven into a drunken
 >haze by Cooper's rantings - there was no reasoning with him
 >about the truth. Including a living example of the truth of WWll
 >and beyond. My late father in-law who really was a part of the
 >real thing. Thanks to Cooper, to him there was no hope.

<sinp>

My Father in-law was a tank driver in the Third Army in WWII -
he was one of the first in Dachau. Yes, the Holocaust did
happen. history was real.

As there is an underlying, with 'lying' being the word here,
anti-semitic tone with Cooper and, as I recall, he was also a
Holocaust denier. This little group, after a falling out with
Cooper - seems the Woman who was grand pooh-bah had gotten on
Cooper's bad side. Easy to do. Kind of like breathing wrong in
his prescence. She was told she was a CIA operative. This
shattered her - if she was CIA, we are all in trouble - and the
group disbanded.

 From them sprang an even smaller group of five or so who formed
a chapter of Aryan Nations. This was an example of Cooper's
ability to spread his vitriol.

However this one didn't last - the fearless leader of this
'merry band' was exposed by his wife who, being a descendant of
one of the local native chiefs and a Chinese miner, didn't hold
with such crap. Not good when you are an Aryan wannabe.<g>

Cooper was not simply evil, IMHO, he was as diabolical as they
come. He could have been another Hitler if the times were right.
He was clearly a classic megalomaniac if there ever was one.

We are better off without the likes of him


GT McCoy










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                          Secrecy News -- 11/13/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:53:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:11:39 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/13/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 13, 2001


**      STIMSON CENTER:  CENSOR ENVIRO WEB SITES
**      POGO TO DOE:  WITHDRAW SENSITIVE DOCUMENTS
**      CROUCH TO GARWIN:  SHUT UP


STIMSON CENTER: CENSOR ENVIRO WEB SITES

In a startling plea for official censorship, Amy E. Smithson of
the Henry L. Stimson Center last week urged the government to
"close down" web sites run by environmental organizations if
they publish information about hazardous materials in local
communities around the country since such information could be
used by terrorists.

"In this day and age, Washington can no longer afford to hand
any interested individual a road map to the chemical calamities
they could cause with the toxic materials located in communities
nationwide," Smithson testified at a House Transportation
subcommittee hearing last week on "Right to Know After September
11th."  The hearing examined the policies governing public
disclosure of chemical hazards at various industrial facilities.

In particular, Smithson said, the government must clamp down on
those environmental organizations that have published
information on hazardous material inventories and accident
consequences, including information that has now been withdrawn
from government web sites.

"Immediately, these interest groups must cease and desist
activities that make data on hazardous materials facilities
available to widespread public view, removing this data from
their websites," she said.

"Failing their voluntary cooperation, the US government should
take swift steps to close down the pertinent segments of these
organizations' websites and take legal steps to prohibit them
from distributing this data in the future on the Internet or by
other means," Smithson instructed.

Dr. Smithson has been widely quoted for her expertise and
opinions concerning chemical and biological weapons policy.  The
Henry L. Stimson Center is a mainstream policy research and
advocacy organization whose declared motto is "Practical steps
to ideal solutions."  But the new censorship proposal hardly
fits that description.

Smithson's testimony on this point invited disbelief because she
blithely made several assumptions that are questionable or
simply incorrect, including: (a) there is no countervailing
benefit to the independent publication of information about
hazardous materials; (b) it is possible for the government to
effectively suppress information that has been privately
published on the web; and (c) it would be legally and
constitutionally permissible to attempt to do so.

An opposing view was presented at the hearing by
environmentalist Jeremiah Baumann of the advocacy organization
US PIRG.

"The right to know is a proven tool for increasing public
safety," he argued.  "Choosing restrictions on the public's
right to know about hazards in communities, rather than actually
reducing those hazards, can hurt safety rather than help it."

Speaking pragmatically, Elaine Stanley of the Environmental
Protection Agency outlined the four criteria the EPA has
developed for deciding what to publish and what to remove from
the Agency's web site.

All of the prepared testimony from the November 8 hearing on
Right to Know After September 11th may be found here:

http://www.house.gov/transportation/water/11-08-01/11-08-01memo.html


POGO TO DOE: WITHDRAW SENSITIVE DOCUMENTS

In something of a man-bites-dog story, a public interest group
has called upon a government agency to remove certain
information from the agency's web site.

The Project on Government Oversight (POGO) said it was
"irresponsible" for the Department of Energy to publish
"detailed maps and descriptions" of various nuclear weapons
facilities on the web.

"Though POGO has worked tirelessly to promote public access to
government information, in this instance we feel that access to
this information serves no public good," said Danielle Brian,
POGO's Executive Director.

Last week, the DOE removed the most sensitive of the cited
documents, POGO said.

See "Energy pulls sensitive nuclear information from the Web" by
Joshua Dean in Government Executive:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1101/111201j1.htm


CROUCH TO GARWIN: SHUT UP

As evidenced above, the debate over when public information
becomes a threat is being enacted with increasing urgency since
September 11 with no clear resolution in sight.

Recently, physicist and problem solver extraordinaire Richard L.
Garwin authored an article in the New York Review of Books
(11/01/01) on "The Many Threats of Terror," sketching out the
potential scope of terrorism as a step towards identifying
appropriate means of protection:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14661

For his trouble, he earned a scolding from jazz critic and
essayist Stanley Crouch, who suggested that Garwin had
carelessly provided a roadmap for future terrorists.

"It seems disgustingly remarkable that those enemies within our
borders, when brainstorming in search of the best ways to murder
as many civilians as possible, need only turn to ... articles
like Garwin's to replenish their strategies of mass
assassination," Mr. Crouch wrote in a letter to the editor of
the New York Review (11/29/01, not currently online).

This is a harsh judgment, and there is no evidence that public
discussion of potential threats has contributed to terrorism.
But it is not unreasonable to worry that it could.

At the same time, it seems probable that most of the weaknesses
that terrorists could hypothetically exploit will never be
corrected if they cannot be publicly identified.

The basic dilemma was stated by Richard Garwin in his published
reply to Stanley Crouch's complaint:

"If [Mr. Crouch] could find some way to solve such problems
without alerting people to their existence," Garwin wrote, "I
would certainly prefer that approach.  But he is asking the
impossible."


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                           More UFO Books Reviewed

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:28:14 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:13:42 -0500
Subject: More UFO Books Reviewed


I'm in the process of expanding and updating my UFO book review
page, located at

http://mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html

The following reviews of Dr. David Jacobs' books are new.  More
will be added soon.

-----

SECRET LIFE and THE THREAT David Jacobs

David Jacobs' "Secret Life" is the quintessential book on alien
abduction. Jacobs is convinced that aliens are physically real
and here on Earth to help perpetuate their species through
genetic crossbreeding with human beings. "Secret Life" is a
seemingly objective analysis of the raw abduction experience,
which the author breaks down into several distinct phases.
Jacobs' attempt to make the abduction phenomenon understandable
is admirable but flawed by his certainty in the infallibility of
hypnotic regression and desire to catalogue the experience as an
entomologist might prepare a display of butterflies. Jacobs
simplifies the experience and in doing so bypasses some of the
more esoteric insights offered us by this elusive and
misunderstood phenomenon.

In "The Threat," Jacobs presents a distinctly paranoid and
malevolent interpretation of the UFO abduction experience.
According to the author, a massive alien task force is here to
wrest control of our biology and society, with humans ultimately
becoming subservient to nasty "hybrids" and Gray overlords. The
vast bulk of "evidence" for this chilling thesis consists of
Jacobs' hypnotic investigations into accounts of selected
"abductees."

Reading this text, I couldn't help suspect that the alien
"threat" of the book's title is largely a subjective impression
on part of the author, and not an external reality. By
scavenging through vague reports (from witnesses already versed
in Jacob's particular theoretical biases), Jacobs is able to
slap together an ominous-enough hypothesis to explain the raison
d'etre of the mass UFO sightings of the last fifty years. I
suspect the validity of Jacobs' doomsday treatise rests in the
hands of more capable researchers.

-----


--Mac

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:20:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:20:57 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:56:29 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:44:36 -0600

 >>>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:05:29 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 ><snip>

 >>>Lasagna, like other forms of pasta, neatly skirts around the
 >>>issue of whether you belong with Lehmberg types, or can be set
 >>>free without a leash.

 >>...While it might be argued that I sometimes tend to the
 >>contentious and passionate exuberance, it is the unusual debate
 >>that keeps my interest, encourages my contribution, and from
 >>which I (like you presumably) derive some small advancement...

 >>In this forum, and out of respect for _most_ of the members and
 >>its intrepid moderator, I take pains to refrain from casual
 >>insult, cast aspirations, and blithe offensiveness as techniques
 >>that are patently non productive. That being said, your flaccid
 >>pasta reference was obscure, clumsy, abstruse, and certainly
 >>blandly indifferent to the continuance of the aforementioned
 >>debate.

 >>Moreover, the moment you feel competent to snap a leash on this
 >>particular hound... Mr. Hatch (?) ...well hoss, you c'mon down.
 >><evil grin>

 >><snip>

 >>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >Sorry Alfred:

 >I agree that was uncalled for

 >- Larry

Well Jeez! That pops my balloon! <g>. Nice shot!

...Think nothing of it, sir. Apology greatfully accepted. We're
all on the same team, after all. Eyes steadfast on the skies,
and all that... The subject matter _is_ unsettling enough
without poking each other in the eye over it, fer sure... You
set an admirable example here today, I think. It is appreciated.

  Lehmberg@snowhill.com
 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:23:29 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:25 -0800

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>Before I joined the List there was a small group of people in
 >>Port Orford who held Cooper almost at the level of Prophet, and
 >>his droolings and rantings level of Gospel. They were lost souls
 >>IMHO. One was a friend of ours that was driven into a drunken
 >>haze by Cooper's rantings - there was no reasoning with him
 >>about the truth. Including a living example of the truth of WWll
 >>and beyond. My late father in-law who really was a part of the
 >>real thing. Thanks to Cooper, to him there was no hope.

 ><sinp>

 >My Father in-law was a tank driver in the Third Army in WWII -
 >he was one of the first in Dachau. Yes, the Holocaust did
 >happen. history was real.

 >As there is an underlying, with 'lying' being the word here,
 >anti-semitic tone with Cooper and, as I recall, he was also a
 >Holocaust denier. This little group, after a falling out with
 >Cooper - seems the Woman who was grand pooh-bah had gotten on
 >Cooper's bad side. Easy to do. Kind of like breathing wrong in
 >his prescence. She was told she was a CIA operative. This
 >shattered her - if she was CIA, we are all in trouble - and the
 >group disbanded.

 >From them sprang an even smaller group of five or so who formed
 >a chapter of Aryan Nations. This was an example of Cooper's
 >ability to spread his vitriol.

 >However this one didn't last - the fearless leader of this
 >'merry band' was exposed by his wife who, being a descendant of
 >one of the local native chiefs and a Chinese miner, didn't hold
 >with such crap. Not good when you are an Aryan wannabe.<g>

 >Cooper was not simply evil, IMHO, he was as diabolical as they
 >come. He could have been another Hitler if the times were right.
 >He was clearly a classic megalomaniac if there ever was one.

 >We are better off without the likes of him


Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
ever present fringe?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:44:16 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:23:29 -0500

 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:25 -0800

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

 >>>Before I joined the List there was a small group of people in
 >>>Port Orford who held Cooper almost at the level of Prophet, and
 >>>his droolings and rantings level of Gospel. They were lost souls
 >>>IMHO. One was a friend of ours that was driven into a drunken
 >>>haze by Cooper's rantings - there was no reasoning with him
 >>>about the truth. Including a living example of the truth of WWll
 >>>and beyond. My late father in-law who really was a part of the
 >>>real thing. Thanks to Cooper, to him there was no hope.

 >>My Father in-law was a tank driver in the Third Army in WWII -
 >>he was one of the first in Dachau. Yes, the Holocaust did
 >>happen. history was real.

 >>As there is an underlying, with 'lying' being the word here,
 >>anti-semitic tone with Cooper and, as I recall, he was also a
 >>Holocaust denier. This little group, after a falling out with
 >>Cooper - seems the Woman who was grand pooh-bah had gotten on
 >>Cooper's bad side. Easy to do. Kind of like breathing wrong in
 >>his prescence. She was told she was a CIA operative. This
 >>shattered her - if she was CIA, we are all in trouble - and the
 >>group disbanded.

 >>From them sprang an even smaller group of five or so who formed
 >>a chapter of Aryan Nations. This was an example of Cooper's
 >>ability to spread his vitriol.

 >>However this one didn't last - the fearless leader of this
 >>'merry band' was exposed by his wife who, being a descendant of
 >>one of the local native chiefs and a Chinese miner, didn't hold
 >>with such crap. Not good when you are an Aryan wannabe.<g>

 >>Cooper was not simply evil, IMHO, he was as diabolical as they
 >>come. He could have been another Hitler if the times were right.
 >>He was clearly a classic megalomaniac if there ever was one.

 >>We are better off without the likes of him

 >Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
 >the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
 >produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
 >alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
 >trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
 >information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
 >ever present fringe?


Alfred,

You raise a good question. I agree completely with G.T. and
others, but why do 'we' follow Cooper types? Why do people
follow Hitler types?

Having spent a number of years working for the American
Psychological Association, I can suggest a few reasonable
answers. Particularly when it comes to UFOs, 'we' are gullible
and tend to believe what we want to believe. 'We' in the U.S.
have become very paranoid about our Government (not without some
legitimate reasons, but way overboard).

When a paranoid, megalomaniac like Cooper taps into 'our'
paranoia, he becomes a sort of prophet to 'us'. Also as has been
amply demonstrated, 'we' don't understand science very well and
so fail to sift and sort through 'information' carefully. In
addition, the world is full of people looking for quick answers
who reason simplistically (if at all) and are born 'followers'
looking for a charismatic leader, hence cults arise (e.g.,
CSETI) often masked in noble-sounding causes or rhetoric.

Antidote?

Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.


- Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                            Book Signing In Ohio

From: Jan M. Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:07:59 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:18:19 -0500
Subject: Book Signing In Ohio


To all interested on the UFO UpDates List,

There will be a Book Signing in Lima, Ohio on Friday November
23, 2001 at The Waldens Book Store in the Lima Mall located on
Elida Rd. in Lima, Ohio with Author Dr. Bruce S. Macabee from
10 am -2:00 pm.

Dr. Bruce Maccabee will be there to meet you in person
autographing his newest book 'Abduction In My Life: A Novel of
Alien Encounters. Also available will be Dr. Maccabee's Book
UFO-FBI Connection.

Dr. Maccabee will be demonstrating his musical talent on stage
with others who will join throughout the day's events taking
place from 7:00 am to 10:00 pm on November 23, 2001.

Mass media will be broadcast this event.

Also performing 'live' is new artist Matt Toth, from Nashville,
TN, with his newly released single debut 'I Am Free' which is
selling very fast among those who hear it.

Matt Toth will also be entertaining the 5,000 US Troops coming
home from Kosovo at their Homecoming Ceremony at Fort Campbell,
Kentucky, on December 13, 2001, where he will be performing live
with the Fort Campbell military band.

Matt will also accompany a group of Ohio business leaders who
have sponsored benefits for the Relief Fund in New York City and
the Senator from to Ohio to New York City.

The 'I Am Free' CD is selling for $ 5.00, with half the proceeds
going to The New York Relief Fund.

For anyone not able to see these celebrities on November 23,
2001 at the Lima Mall, order your copy of the CD 'I Am Free' by
calling the Promotor of Guitarphens Publishing in Nashville, Jan
M. Pheneger, at 419-222-6148 or email: jan0320@aol.com and
contribute a donation to The Families Benefit Relief Fund in New
York City.

We ask that you call your local radio stations owned by
Clear Channel Premiere Network and request the song 'I Am Free'
by Artist Matt Toth. The Home Office number for Clear Channel
Premiere Network is 859-655-2267 where they build the
play lists for their radio stations.

We all wish to thank List members for their support.


Respectfully,

Jan M. Pheneger
Promotor/GuitarphensPublishing/Nashville
email: jan0320@aol.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                         BBC Needs Pictures Of UFOs

From: Mark Talbot <mark.talbot@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:14:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:24:33 -0500
Subject: BBC Needs Pictures Of UFOs


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Dear all,

We are making a programme at the BBC called 'Weird Almanac'.
This programme is about strange phenomena in 2001 and covers
all type of odd-goings on; from Aliens to the Loch Ness Monster
and UFOs.

For the piece on UFOs we require pictures, drawings, sketches of
UFOs and anything that people think resembles a UFO! I have seen
all your websites and am wondering whether you can help me out?

We require drawings/pictures/sketches of anything that is
square, rectangular, oblong, cigar-shaped (any shape - the more
the merrier) that resembles a UFO. We need about 100 to make a
rostrum for the show and if anyone can help that would be great.

If anyone has any pictures please let me know and I would be
extremely grateful. If anyone can help, either send me an email
or give me a call. If you have a telephone number I can call you
on, that would be useful too.

Thank you all for your help and I look forward to your
responses.


Mark Talbot

*       Work: (0161) 24 43377
*       Fax:  (0161) 24 43618
*       BBC Entertainment and Features, Room 4041, New Broadcasting House,
      Manchester, M60 1SJ
*       mailto:mark.talbot@bbc.co.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                             Author Brian Innes?

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:28:43 -0500
Subject: Author Brian Innes?


UK Listers,

I have a friend in the UK who is trying to contact author Brian
Innes (UFO/paranormal books) for her research. I understand he
is in London and wonder if someone who knows him could arrange
an introduction.


TIA,

Terry







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:42:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:58:52 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:23:29 -0500

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:25 -0800

 >>>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

<snip>

 >>Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
 >>the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
 >>produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
 >>alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
 >>trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
 >>information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
 >>ever present fringe?

 >Alfred,

 >You raise a good question. I agree completely with G.T. and
 >others, but why do 'we' follow Cooper types? Why do people
 >follow Hitler types?

 >Having spent a number of years working for the American
 >Psychological Association, I can suggest a few reasonable
 >answers. Particularly when it comes to UFOs, 'we' are gullible
 >and tend to believe what we want to believe. 'We' in the U.S.
 >have become very paranoid about our Government (not without some
 >legitimate reasons, but way overboard).

Well see, you're talking about lower common denominator 'we'
easily bamboozled by common fallacy and 'big' lies but believing
finally what they're programmed to believe, and given legitimate
reasons you admit, how far does one have to go to go 'overboard'
with their paranoia regarding that admittedly suspect
government. I think we've been restrained in our paranoia. Our
institutions don't seem to make that any better.

 >When a paranoid, megalomaniac like Cooper taps into 'our'
 >paranoia, he becomes a sort of prophet to 'us'. Also as has been
 >amply demonstrated, 'we' don't understand science very well and
 >so fail to sift and sort through 'information' carefully.

You know, for my money, science has been remiss in making itself
available to just the people you're talking about. It makes
itself dry as dust, fit only for the rarified palate that can
appreciate it, and has been quick to ridicule but slow to
investigate. A 'Cooper' sure knows how to exploit that...

 >In
 >addition, the world is full of people looking for quick answers
 >who reason simplistically (if at all) and are born 'followers'
 >looking for a charismatic leader, hence cults arise (e.g.,
 >CSETI) often masked in noble-sounding causes or rhetoric.

This is forgetting the cult of science in general? Velikovski is still
ridiculed and wasn't another one of his more astonishing contentions
recently been given more validity?

http://www.rense.com/general16/mete.htm

People are looking for answers, period -- quick, slow, and in
between. They go with what seems to be working with them. I'm
one of those people.

 >Antidote?

That's just one word Mr. Hall, with all respect.

 >Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

I'd say _creative_ thinking (so did Maxwell), _comprehensive_
data analysis, and "judge not lest ye be judged." I'd also add
'Full Disclosure'. The truth though the heavens fall... I'm
betting it won't fall too far for most of us.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:09 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600

<snip>

 >>Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
 >>the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
 >>produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
 >>alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
 >>trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
 >>information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
 >>ever present fringe?

 >Alfred,

 >You raise a good question. I agree completely with G.T. and
 >others, but why do 'we' follow Cooper types? Why do people
 >follow Hitler types?

 >Having spent a number of years working for the American
 >Psychological Association, I can suggest a few reasonable
 >answers. Particularly when it comes to UFOs, 'we' are gullible
 >and tend to believe what we want to believe. 'We' in the U.S.
 >have become very paranoid about our Government (not without some
 >legitimate reasons, but way overboard).

 >When a paranoid, megalomaniac like Cooper taps into 'our'
 >paranoia, he becomes a sort of prophet to 'us'. Also as has been
 >amply demonstrated, 'we' don't understand science very well and
 >so fail to sift and sort through 'information' carefully. In
 >addition, the world is full of people looking for quick answers
 >who reason simplistically (if at all) and are born 'followers'
 >looking for a charismatic leader, hence cults arise (e.g.,
 >CSETI) often masked in noble-sounding causes or rhetoric.

Hi Dick,

Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
lately.

I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
wrote:

 >Antidote?

 >Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
Indeed'.

He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
Presidential Executive Order.

Now here's the kicker;

Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
been executed by a combination of CIA and military
operatives/operations.

Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
that help us?

We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
around at what's what, and then take some personal
responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

Strictly my opinion.


Warmest regards Dick,

John Velez







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                          Filer's Files #46 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:42:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:35:45 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #46 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #46 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 14, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs have been reported in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia,
Florida, Alabama, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Texas, Arizona, Wyoming,
Washington, California, the United Kingdom and Turkey. Afghan's
Northern Alliance captures Kabul.

LEONID METEOR STORM!

The Leonid meteor shower is expected to be brighter and more
violent than usual on Saturday, and Sunday, November 17 and 18.
Space Shuttle flights are being canceled and astronauts in the
International Space Station are bracing themselves. It's
expected to be the most powerful meteor storm to hit in decades
and 600 communications satellites orbiting Earth are at risk.
NASA has already taken steps to protect the orbiting Hubble
Space Telescope and other satellites. North America should see
a spectacular light show if viewing conditions is good. Try to
get to a dark area away from lights and if there are not any
clouds you should have a great view this year. The cosmic
fireworks will begin as the Earth begins to cut across the orbit
of Comet Temple-Tuttle, and into the blizzard of 160,000 mph
meteoroids. The comet jettisons tiny fragments of itself
creating a shower known as the Leonids. This is an annual
event, but this year Earth will cut across an especially dense
part of the comet trail.

HEAVY SUNSPOT ACTIVITY CONTINUES, NUMBER NOW AT 258

Mitch Battros writes that, NASA has just released information
announcing the sunspot count is now 258, which is a count of
108 over the predicted "apex" (or maximum) for "Cycle 23." NASA
had predicted the "apex" of a 150-sunspot count would have
occurred 11 months ago in January. Now we are in November with
sunspot counts and solar flares as large as ever. It has become
obvious to scientists, we are not in a normal eleven-year
cycle. The question has to be asked, "Then what is going on?"
The answer would suggest we must be in a much larger cycle then
anticipated. I call this a "Mega Cycle" with perhaps thousands
of years in-between. This 'Mega cycle' has indeed been
announced in many of our ancient text documents. The Maya have
stated, "This is the cycle of the sun. In this time, the sun
will speak to us." The Hopi's stated, "This is the time of
purification." The Third Letter of Fatima states, "The skies
will turn red."

The Bible states "fire will come from the skies." All of the
previous quotes indicate this very time the end of the 20th
century or the beginning of the 21st century described as both
"the end of time," or "the beginning of time." Of course, this
as in all interpretations should and must be acknowledged as
nothing more than one person's conjecture. However, over the
years I can say ancient text has proven to be accurate and
worthy of serious consideration. I assure you, there are many at
NASA, NOAA, and Naval Observatory who are scratching their heads
saying, "this isn't supposed to happen. The sunspot group that
occurred on November 12, 2001, is so large you could fit fifteen
Earth's from one end to the other. Watch for X-Class flares to
begin soon. I would expect continued X and M-Class flares
throughout this entire week. Watch for spectacular Northern
Lights and "record breaking" weather to continue for an
undetermined period; perhaps for the next thirty days. Equation:
Sunspots = Solar Flares = Magnetic Shift = Shifting Ocean and
Jet Stream Currents = Extreme Weather Thanks to Mitch Battros
http://www.earthchangestv.com

UFO EVIDENCE

Stan Friedman writes, "Although the case for the flying saucer
reality is far better than the case against most convicted
criminals. If you do it on an evidential basis, you can look at
things like Ted Phillips' collected information on over 4,400
physical trace cases from 66 countries. These are cases where
the saucer is seen on or near the ground, and after it leaves,
one finds clear physical changes such as burn circles and burn
rings, landing gear marks, swirled vegetation, dried out soil,
and so forth. People say there is no physical evidence. Well,
if a footprint and a fingerprint are physical evidence, then
the physical trace cases are certainly physical evidence. In
addition, the same things keep happening all over the world.
The problem is most people are unaware of the evidence, even
though there is a preponderance of evidence. Given the physical
trace cases, the radar sightings, the photographs and the
eyewitness testimony from people all over the world, we have
quite sufficient evidence to conclude that our planet is being
visited by manufactured objects behaving in ways that we
Earthlings cannot yet duplicate, and that therefore were
produced someplace else." Thanks to Stanton Friedman

NEW JERSEY LIGHTS

PARAMUS -- I am a 16-year-old amateur astronomer. My mother who
was the other witness is 45. She is a very serious person in
the way that she isn't fooled. At about 23:00 hours on October
30, 2001, we went from Paramus to Hackensack to pick up my
brother from the bowling alley. We saw four lights that moved
around in oval orbits. They moved around as a group never
changing their movements. We looked for a source of the lights
but couldn't find any. You could tell they were moving as a
group because you could see that when they crossed paths it was
over a different spot then before. They had a bright narrow end
and extended to a faded wide end. We watched each one move
around and as they met in the middle the bright part of the
light seemed to miss each other. When we got home I took out my
telescope and aimed it at a fixed spot where the lights would
move through my point of view. After about five minutes of
consistently looking through the telescope I saw a little !
bright dot move just in front of the light. When I called my
Mom to see, she saw that one of the lights stopped and became
brighter. I quickly turned the telescope toward it, but just as
I almost had it in my finder scope it faded away. Thanks to
NUFORC Director Peter Davenport

PENNSYLVANIA FIREBALL

BUCKS COUNTY -- Bill D writes that, on November 6, 2001, was
driving south on I-95 just past the Route 1 interchange at 5:36
PM, when I looked up and saw a white fireball traveling south
parallel to the highway. It was brighter than Jupiter but not
as bright as Venus. I saw it first at about 30 degrees above
horizon. It went down to about 20 degrees and winked out
suddenly. The total time of visibility was a bit less than
one-second. It was pure white, no trail, and no fragments. I've
seen about a half-dozen fireballs in my time, and this one
seemed to travel faster than the rest. I turned on KYW News
Radio Station for rest of ride home, but there were no reports.
There seems to have been a high number of fireball sightings
recently. Thanks to Bill D. wjdaed@prodigy.net and Joe Trainor
Masinaigan

VIRGINIA FLYING RECTANGLE

WOODBRIDGE -- The witness reports two red lights, flying in a
circular pattern with several repetitions over a period of at
least a half hour. Two rectangular objects were flying in a
semicircular pattern October 26, 2001, I was only able to
distinguish them once they were going away from me at 12:30 AM.
I guess looking at the back end. I could see a bright red
light, and only the light. The light didn't blink, but just
faded in and out over time. I couldn't see the whole flight
because trees behind my house blocked the whole view. However,
I did see the back end of the pattern four times before I went
inside my house. There were several minutes between sightings.
I could also hear a low rumbling, almost like a jet engine, but
it was constant, never really fading too much as the object
went away, and didn't really get louder as it came close. I
don't know if this was "alien" but I don't know what it is.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

FLORIDA DISK

MIAMI -- On October 12, 2001, the witness was working late and
went out on the back porch for a smoke late at night. He saw a
craft hovering high in the atmosphere that was changing colors
or flashing lights. The witness states, "I noticed the disk
shape in the south sky high above Miami." It changed colors,
white, red, and green, with what looked like blue flashes
in-between. I looked at it through binoculars, then tried to
record it with a digital camera, but would not pick it up. I
tried with the camcorder, but could not pick it up. I awoke my
wife and daughter and we watched it for twenty minutes. It has
moved west a small bit. It is not a star, not an aircraft. It
appears very much to be in the atmosphere and therefore not a
satellite. For the first time in my life, I do believe I have
actually seen a craft, not of this world. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

ALABAMA CIRCLE

FORT PAYNE -- I am a newspaper reporter who interviewed a man
about video footage he shot while hunting a deer on Lookout
Mountain on October 18, 2001. He said, The mystery object had a
reflective glare like the metallic exterior of a passenger jet,
but it did not move like one. AT 5:51 PM it maneuvered more
like a helicopter, although he saw no rotor blades and it
suddenly, abruptly went straight up and out of view. This
gentleman had no idea what to do with the footage and contacted
the local newspaper. He'd seen it 5 years ago and again before
this, but this was the first time he had a video camera. We
reported on numerous UFO sightings in Fyffe, Alabama and
strange cattle mutilations that suddenly ended. I, myself, saw
what the people were seeing back in 1993. I don't know if it's
space aliens, but something freaky is going on here. NUFORC
Note: Digitized image was forwarded to NUFORC for our
inspection. It appears to be quite indistinct in the digitized
version. ! Thanks to Peter Davenport.

WISCONSIN THREE UFO SIGHTINGS

WATERTOWN -- On November 10, 2001, John H. writes, "I was
sitting in the back yard around a fire pit hoping that maybe I
would catch a glimpse of the northern lights I missed earlier
in the week. I happened to look up at 9:30 PM and from the east
about 45 degrees I saw a very fast moving object about as
bright as a meteor, move straight west and fade in the clouds.
The whole incident lasted about 5 seconds so I had enough time
to say to my wife, "Look at that, there, right there going over
our neighbors house," so she also saw it. It was bright enough
to see through the thin clouds. I was assuming it could be a
meteor, but I saw no tail, neither did my wife. The light was a
fuzzy light, not as sharp as a bright meteor might look.

NORTH FOND DU LAC -- My husband had just left to go hunting. It
was about 5:30 AM, when we saw two stars, one brighter and one
smaller in the southwestern sky. The smaller star started to
move in a perfectly straight line slowly to the east. It
traveled at the same speed as the space lab traveled that we
viewed a few years ago. Then it disappeared. I know it did not
go behind clouds.

OZAUKEE --Grafton County: Mark J. was taking out the garbage on
October 31, 2001, when he saw a huge giant white light above
him at 8:30 PM. Mark says, "I saw a flying dark triangular
shape with a giant white light in the middle of the UFO
traveling pretty fast." In addition, on the bottom left corner
there were two smaller lights. Mark says, "It was raining and
when I stared at it, I could see the rain coming off the back
end of it." I have never seen anything like it. I called my
friend and he told me to go to the UFO Wisconsin web site.
After that call I went outside to see more but it was
completely gone. Thanks to Jenny Hoppe jenny@ufowisconsin.com,

ARKANSAS CYLINDER

LITTLE ROCK -- My wife and I observed a cylindrical metal craft
on October 28, 2001, that was flying a direct course from south
to north at 5:05 PM. The craft appeared to be made of shiny
metal and made no noise. We looked at the craft with
binoculars, and both agreed that we could not tell what it was
since there were no wings. The cylinder was flying at a
relatively low altitude, 10,000 feet or under. Several
airplanes were flying overhead, and all had contrails, but the
craft we were seeing had no contrail. Thanks to Peter Davenport
NUFORC

TEXAS UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

HOUSTON -- Beau Spikes writes, I would like to be contacted by
MUFON. In addition, I have entered a report as you requested at
the MUFON. We have seen these objects every night since
November 2, 2001. We are trying to get closer and take photos
with ASA 400 film as you suggested. The only camera I have is a
regular 35 mm cannon. As far as detail, the lights appear every
night in a different location. There is at least one, and as
many as five per night, all appearing at same time. What I see
is a spec of light that changes colors and shapes. Sometimes it
is a dot, sometimes a vertical bar, sometimes, and a horizontal
bar. Sometimes it is a vertical bar with a horizontally
sweeping white dot in the middle that is very distinctive.
Sometimes it has an umbrella shaped top with colored appendages
underneath. The appendages rapidly change shape and colors. The
lighted objects often move in an unpredictable manner. Usually
they sit still, but sometimes they shift every ! few seconds,
side to side and up and down. In addition, I know I saw a
"string" coming from these things. I wondered if the recent
mass coronal ejection's might be part of this sight? However, I
saw the lights before and after the solar flares, (with no
difference), so I completely disregard them as a part of my
sightings. Thanks to beau spikes beauknowz@yahoo.com.

ARIZONA FLYING TRIANGLE

PHOENIX -- I was sitting out side of the shop I work at on
October 19, 2001, and was having a smoke about 8:45 PM,
watching the sky, which was hazy but clear enough to see stars.
There was a light layer of clouds coming from the west out of
California. I suddenly caught a glimpse of something flying
over my head. I looked up to see a group of three
reddish/orange, somewhat bright yet fuzzy looking lights flying
at what seemed to be couple of hundred feet above my head but
completely silent. It traveled at a very fast speed from east
to west across the sky towards Luke Air Force Base. This took a
total of about 6 to 8 seconds. Just as it was passing over the
top of the roof of the house, my receptionist looked out the
door and said, "What's that?" Then another person I work with
ran out the back door and was asking what I saw. I was
describing it to her and all of a sudden a boomerang shaped
cloud traveling the same direction was moving across the sky at
an extremely fast speed too. The other clouds that were in the
sky never changed, they were in the same place as they were
when the event started. Thanks to Peter Davenport
www.ufocenter.com

WASHINGTON FLYING TRIANGULAR OBJECTS

BUCKLEY -- Two slow-moving flying triangle shaped objects with
blue, white, and red lights, with very bright strobes in
unison, along with bigger white lights at 3 points were spotted
on October 24, 2001. The two craft were headed south, slightly
above a low broken cloud cover at 8:05 PM. The craft were about
one mile apart, with one trailing back about 60 degrees east of
the other. As their strobes flashed, a faint outline appeared
to reveal a solid triangle, rather than a conventional wing.
Their altitude was about 1500 feet. There were distinct bright
red, blue, and white lights in line on the trailing edge of
both craft. There were no red or green strobes in conventional
positions on the craft and no landing lights or a similar
typical arrangement apparent. The witness states, "This was not
at all the typical type of light arrangement, as I'm accustomed
to light airplane traffic, commercial traffic to and from
SeaTac, and military traffic to McCord Air Force Base. ! I'm not
familiar with this light arrangement and there was no engine
noise. Commercial flight from SeaTac at 2020 hours with takeoff
lights and conventional configuration of lights flew over just
west of my house, well above the other objects' with engine
noise very clear. Thanks to Peter Davenport www.ufocenter.com

ARIZONA UFO FLIES AROUND MOUNTAIN

GLENDALE -- The witness reports that on November 2, 2001, "I
witnessed the best thing ever. At 9:25 PM, I saw, what appeared
to me as a UFO. I have never seen one before and the object I
saw was lower than most aircraft in the area and shot across
the sky at a high speed much faster than the aircraft here."
The object was round, the bottom looked reddish gold, there
were no lights and no sound and it departed to the west. I have
become a believer. I'm very excited about the entire event and
want to share this extraordinary night.

FOOTHILLS, AHWATUKEE -- Rick says, "I was looking up at the sky
from my car on November 8, 2001, when suddenly I saw something
hovering around the mountain in a circular way at 9:50 PM. It
hovered around the mountain six times. At first all I could see
was a white dot in the sky, but after a minute it approached
more towards the mountain and seemed like a huge battleship
with four lights in the sides. The color was metallic brown,
and it hovered around oddly, nothing like any thing I've ever
seen. After about 10 minutes, it headed of to the west. Thanks
to Joe Trainor Masinaigan and Rick.

WYOMING DRAMATIC SIGHTING

EVANSTON -- A trucker driving through Wyoming observed an
oblong green glassy object starting at 11:00 PM on October 24,
2001. The UFO hovered in front and above our vehicle. The
truckers called 911 several times and were given an Air Force
number to call. The object stayed near by until 4:00 AM, and he
indicates that he misplaced 300 miles of this trip. Later the
truckers were buzzed by a helicopter shortly after the last
contact. ((NUFORC Note: The witness chooses to remain
anonymous, but reported that the sighting was rather dramatic,
and that other truckers on the same highway probably were
witness to the event. We would welcome other reports from
anyone who might have seen something unusual on this date in
the Wyoming area.

CALIFORNIA BOLIDE

SANTA MONICA -- While driving west at 65 mph on the 10 Freeway
on October 26, 2001, I saw a trail of bright white sparks
coming from an object with three lights on it. At 8:45 PM, it
was moving north across the freeway at maybe 5 to 10 thousand
feet with a passenger jet high above it. It gave off sparks for
maybe 20 seconds and then the lights in the nose went out. The
sparks were like a fireworks rocket, but this had head lights.
Therefore, it was not fireworks. I could not see any detail of
a craft, just three lights and sparks. I called the Santa
Monica police and asked if a plane had crashed in the area.
They said no. NUFORC Note: There was a similar report from Los
Angeles of object moving to southeast at 0130 hours on October
27.

BURBANK -- On October 26, 2001, I was looking westward over the
San Fernando Valley at 8:45 PM when I saw a fireball or bolide
coming in from the ocean shooting sparks out its tail. The
fireball was only five seconds in duration, but quite bright.
It was on the left of the Hercules constellation.

SKSEBASTOPOL -- A couple was driving home on October 27, 2001,
when a UFO suddenly popped up above their car. The witnesses
report, "Our car began to stall, when the craft showed up and
was hovering over our car all the way home. It would disappear
for a few seconds then hover over our car while we drove down
the road that my girlfriend lives on. Once we got to her house
at 10:00 PM, it popped up hovering at an angle over her house
for around twenty seconds. It was the size of a house. I myself
have never believed in flying saucers, but now I believe that I
actually have had an encounter with one. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

UNITED KINGDOM UFO ON HALLOWEEN NIGHT AND FLYING TRIANGLE

CROMFORD -- The Matlock Mercury Newspaper reports, "A nervous
Winster driver was just seconds away from photographing a UFO on
Halloween."  Derek Holmes (66) was driving home from Lea Croft
Road when he spotted a strange bright light in the sky. Mr.
Holmes said: "I thought to myself good God what is that? I could
see this very big, bright, white object. I felt nervous, it was
a peculiar feeling, and I had read before about UFOs thinking
there must be some simple explanation." Mr. Holmes on Bonsall
Moor first spotted the UFO near the Salter's Lane junction at
10:32 PM. As he drove nearer the light it was a round airborne
object, with curved edges. Slowing down, Mr. Holmes searched for
a safe place to stop on the narrow road, to capture the
brilliant image on film. But despite having a camera in the back
he was too slow. "The size of the light went down, it was as if
someone had hit a dimmer switch and it went yellow," added Mr.
Holmes. "It started to move into the distance and then
disappeared." Thanks to Matlock Mercury via Matlock Today
11/8/01 and FarShores UFO News
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/index.htm

NORWICH -- On November 7, 2001, a single fighter aircraft that
sounded like a NATO F-15 Eagle was escorting a triangular
shaped craft over Norwich at 6:15 PM. The fighter was about six
aircraft lengths behind and four widths to the left hand side
of the Flying Triangle. The fighter could clearly be heard but
there was no noise from the other craft. The fighter was
displaying full navigation lights, while the only illumination
from the triangular craft was three small green lights one at
each point of the triangle. The shape of the Flying Triangle
craft was clearly visible against the stars as it passed
between them and the witness. A close friend also saw the two
craft for ten seconds as they headed east and disappeared. The
black triangle had three sides of equal length. They were
flying at an estimated speed of 250 to 400 knots at an altitude
of 1500 feet. Thanks to Joe Trainor Masinaigan and Mr. Davis
(esoxathome@aol.com)

Editor's Note: Joseph Trainor is the former editor of UFO
Roundup a great weekly report. As most subscribers and readers
of UFO Roundup know, Joe has been offline due to cataracts in
both eyes. Joe had his first eye operation in August and since
then he has been wearing dark Solar Shield glasses. He stated
that he was still myopic but the vision in his "blind" right
eye is much improved with the new lens, while his left eye is a
total blur! On October 29, Joe had his second cataract
operation at in Duluth's Miller-Dwan Hospital It apparently
went pretty well because Joe was able to send in this report.
Let's all pray for a quick recovery for Joe.

TURKEY UFO PHOTOGRAPHED

DENIZLI, SOGUT MOUNTAIN -- The Milliyet news reports a UFO was
photographed recently. The person who took the picture was
actually preparing an article about Denizli and he was talking
to the farmers and village people. When they climbed to the
Sogut Mountain, he decided to take pictures of the village
people who were guiding him. At that time he accidentally took
the picture of a UFO. His name is Okan Ilhan and he is a
dentist. Sirius in Istanbul is investigating. Thanks to Leyla
Degirmen vze2rq7z@verizon.net photo at
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2001/11/14/yasam/yas02.html,

AFGHANISTAN MAJOR VICTORY

KABUL -- Northern Alliance forces have closed in from three
sides on a large concentration of Taliban troops in northern
Afghanistan, threatening to destroy the last major Taliban Army
in the north. Mazar-e Sharif, a northern crossroads city fell
on Friday, Kabul the Afghan capital fell on Tuesday, other key
towns were evacuated as Taliban forces retreated. Taliban
forces are also fleeing Kabul in what appears as a rout with
large numbers of Taliban forces surrendering.

The Northern Alliance has been reinforced with US Special
Forces advisers and Forward Air Controllers who call in air
strikes on key enemy positions. The B-52 and fighter strikes
are very effective causing heavy casualties to the Taliban
troops. Alliance commanders claimed that as many as 1,200
Pakistanis and Arabs fighting with the Taliban had been killed
near Mazar-e Sharif. It is apparent the Taliban have suffered
serious casualties and are demoralized. These victories are
important to the United States in pursuing its goal of
dismantling the ruling Islamic militia, which is harboring
terrorist Osama bin Laden. The Northern Alliance has retaken
Kabul, and roughly half the country. The Taliban have not only
lost large geographic areas, but they have lost the main part
of their fighting force. US bombing shattered the Taliban's
command structure, and weakened its political grip: The
Northern Alliance forces with a few US soldiers have been
welcomed as liberators in Kabul.

However, the real key to the Taliban's rule is the south and
the city of Kandahar. It is the real center of Taliban strength
and al Qaeda influence; Kandahar must fall to mark the end of
their rule. Taking the city could also pin down the Taliban to
the countryside and keep Osama bin Laden from escaping. The
Northern Alliance's successes have opened the door to Kandahar
and the south, but the next step must come quickly to prevent
the Taliban from reorganizing its defenses. And press reports
suggest that Kandahar is already in chaos and may have been
seized by deserters. This situation is ideal for U.S. military
forces to launch a quick operation to take the city before
Taliban forces can reorganize.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO photographs
available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy
Commander Graham Bethune. $10.00. Send check or money order to
G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055. CD OF
FILER'S FILES for the last four years 1997 through 2000 is
available for $25.00. Both for $30.00.

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                             On The Rant Or Off

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:18:54 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:40:08 -0500
Subject: On The Rant Or Off


This forum is the one place in which List members should pull
together, not tear apart. In one sense or another, most of us
share one common trait, one philosophy, which permits sanity,
civility and camaraderie. That single 'thing' is a search for
truth. Whatever that truth may be. Pro or con our paradigm,
truth, absolute truth, is what we seek.

Hynek, whose name I satirize through abuse when I call myself
Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt (Gesundt in Yiddish means 'health') is a
man who should _not_ be satirized by me or anyone else. He was a
man who sought truth and said truth, his truth, with impunity.
And no one could naysay him by virtue of his dignity and
science. A man who loves truth is a man who is unafraid to tell
his truth.

How many of you have read his book? It should be required
reading by Errol, for anyone to join this List. I digress. (Blame
it on the Corona Extra, I am weaned off Gripple but don't tell
Gsundt .. he'll kill me).

We should be debating one another. Just being here, being able
to read posts, demonstrates a level of intellect higher than
normal. And some of us have minds quite superior to what is
'normal'. But, we lose it. Too often.

Hynek was a master of expressing that which he imagined. He was
a man whose words came as if from Verlain or Rembaud. Pure
imagery. Hynek expressed without rancor, that which we often
argue here on UpDates. It isn't the List. It's the List members.
It isn't EBK, it is his guests. We are invited to his dinner
table and there, we argue whilst partaking of his larder. The
last time that happened to me, it was Thanksgiving Day some
years back. It leaves a terrible taste in one's memory. And it
is uncalled for.

I would apologize to anyone I may have offended on this List.
Like Mr. Hatch, I've responded with angst. I shall try hard to
amend my ways. This being my act of contrition.

Uh, I remember going to Catholic School, going to confession and
saying all them sins by rote. Memorized them all. Same stuff.
Same sins. Same ten Hail Mary's and Ten Our Fathers for penance.
And same sins all over again. Today, I realize that sin is like
truth. It is unstable and exists as sin or truth only in the
mind of the man. In the mind of the Great Man, it may be
anything, however I would vote for amusing.


Jim Mortellaro

[and the other voices in my head]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:17:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:44:14 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Hall


 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600

 >>>Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
 >>>the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
 >>>produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
 >>>alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
 >>>trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
 >>>information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
 >>>ever present fringe?

 >>[Alfred]: You raise a good question. I agree completely with G.T. and
 >>others, but why do 'we' follow Cooper types? Why do people
 >>follow Hitler types?

 >>Having spent a number of years working for the American
 >>Psychological Association, I can suggest a few reasonable
 >>answers. Particularly when it comes to UFOs, 'we' are gullible
 >>and tend to believe what we want to believe. 'We' in the U.S.
 >>have become very paranoid about our Government (not without some
 >>legitimate reasons, but way overboard).

 >>When a paranoid, megalomaniac like Cooper taps into 'our'
 >>paranoia, he becomes a sort of prophet to 'us'. Also as has been
 >>amply demonstrated, 'we' don't understand science very well and
 >>so fail to sift and sort through 'information' carefully. In
 >>addition, the world is full of people looking for quick answers
 >>who reason simplistically (if at all) and are born 'followers'
 >>looking for a charismatic leader, hence cults arise (e.g.,
 >>CSETI) often masked in noble-sounding causes or rhetoric.

 >Hi Dick,

 >Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
 >lately.

 >I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
 >tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
 >wrote:

 >>Antidote?

 >>Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >>antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

 >You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
 >and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
 >Indeed'.

 >He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
 >all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
 >administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
 >Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
 >Presidential Executive Order.

 >Now here's the kicker;

 >Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
 >contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
 >evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
 >less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
 >makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
 >is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
 >scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
 >at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
 >been executed by a combination of CIA and military
 >operatives/operations.

 >Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
 >is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
 >executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
 >only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
 >himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
 >UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

 >Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
 >trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
 >never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
 >does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
 >anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

 >I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
 >running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
 >that help us?

 >We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >Strictly my opinion.

John,

And as usual, a thoughtful one that meets my criterion for
"clear thinking". Unfortunately, Alfred's response does
not... but I will try to deal with that tomorrow. "Sufficient
unto the day is the evil thereof."


- Dick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 15

             Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:51:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:51:05 -0500
Subject: Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien

http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard
.xsl?/base/news/10053873262611734.xml

Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien Craft

11/10/01

By RHODA A. PICKETT
Staff Reporter

They came from all over the Gulf Coast and as far away as
Vancouver, British Columbia to discuss the unusual, the
unexplained, the unseen, bordering on the unknown.

Nearly 300 gathered Friday for the Journeys Beyond Conference at
the start of the three-day event being held in downtown Mobile
at the Adam's Mark Riverview Plaza Hotel. The conference
continues through Sunday.

Tabbed as the UFParanormal event of the year, the conference is
open to the public at a cost of $15 per lecture or $140 for 10
lectures. The workshops can range from $20 to $25 each. There is
no cost to visit the vendor section.

The conference contains a little bit of everything: Astrological
evaluation, psychic readings, alien-inspired jewelry,
discussions of near-death ex periences, entity influences, UFO
crop circles and past-life regression.

"Our primary goal is to give the public as many opportunities to
hear as many different varieties as possible and let them decide
what they want to accept and believe," said Pat Crumbley of
Spanish Fort, the conference director.

Some of the discussions can border on the religious. Bruce Moen,
an engineer turned afterlife explorer, talked about his travels
through the various levels of hell, and his discovery that
continuing in that vein would take him further from "that place
of pure unconditional love."

"Have you ever felt the sweetness of honey?" Moen said,
describing a love that he says only the angels can bestow.
"That's what it feels like. You hear of doctors who have given
up on a sick child and the mother goes and starts praying."

Then the sick child makes a miraculous recovery.

"Someone in that land of angels was able to deliver such a
tremendous amount of pure unconditional love that nothing could
stand in the way of it," Moen said.

Percy Galloway tended a table covered with videos and loose-leaf
books he had written about his experiences with the aliens. He
still remembers the day at age 5 when he was invited by aliens
to board their spaceship where he remained "for four Earth
hours."

Since then, they have continued to communicate with him,
sometimes visiting as many as 12 times a year, "depending on
their schedule," he said.

"They were on a mission to educate, and they are in everyday
life," Galloway said. "The aliens are just like us. Some are
good and some are bad. They are just like humankind.

"There is a body of good aliens that are forming a confederation
and a federation," he said. "Their main purpose is to keep the
other aliens from interfering with the governing bodies of the
planet's nations so that things won't become chaotic and start
World War III.

If WWIII does start, however, "they have a planet out in space
somewhere that's safe for us," said Galloway, now 60.

It's usually in the middle of Saskatchewan that Paul Anderson
and his fellow researchers find the Canadian crop circles.
Pasted on boards arranged on a display table are some
photographs of what he says are this year's 19 circles.

"I've walked in most of them," said Anderson, who will present a
lecture on the crop circles today. "You almost never get any
burn marks and the crop keeps growing. It's not dead. It's
usually a complex thing. The stalks are woven together, like
interlocking your fingers. It's interesting."

Anderson said he hasn't seen whatever or whoever is responsible
for the phenomenon, but the graphic artist said he hopes to one
day have a chance encounter with the creator of the crop
circles.

Lele Maloney of Fairhope attended the conference with her
mother. She stopped a few minutes to scan some published
accounts of previous conferences.

"I think, 'why not?'" Maloney said. "I don't think life is
confined to what we see."






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 15

               Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:29:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:43:59 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - McCoy


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:29:23 -0600

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:25 -0800

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

 >><snip>

 >>>Before I joined the List there was a small group of people in
 >>>Port Orford who held Cooper almost at the level of Prophet, and
 >>>his droolings and rantings level of Gospel. They were lost souls
 >>>IMHO. One was a friend of ours that was driven into a drunken
 >>>haze by Cooper's rantings - there was no reasoning with him
 >>>about the truth. Including a living example of the truth of WWll
 >>>and beyond. My late father in-law who really was a part of the
 >>>real thing. Thanks to Cooper, to him there was no hope.

 >><sinp>

 >>My Father in-law was a tank driver in the Third Army in WWII -
 >>he was one of the first in Dachau. Yes, the Holocaust did
 >>happen. history was real.

 >>As there is an underlying, with 'lying' being the word here,
 >>anti-semitic tone with Cooper and, as I recall, he was also a
 >>Holocaust denier. This little group, after a falling out with
 >>Cooper - seems the Woman who was grand pooh-bah had gotten on
 >>Cooper's bad side. Easy to do. Kind of like breathing wrong in
 >>his prescence. She was told she was a CIA operative. This
 >>shattered her - if she was CIA, we are all in trouble - and the
 >>group disbanded.

 >>From them sprang an even smaller group of five or so who formed
 >>a chapter of Aryan Nations. This was an example of Cooper's
 >>ability to spread his vitriol.

 >>However this one didn't last - the fearless leader of this
 >>'merry band' was exposed by his wife who, being a descendant of
 >>one of the local native chiefs and a Chinese miner, didn't hold
 >>with such crap. Not good when you are an Aryan wannabe.<g>

 >>Cooper was not simply evil, IMHO, he was as diabolical as they
 >>come. He could have been another Hitler if the times were right.
 >>He was clearly a classic megalomaniac if there ever was one.

 >>We are better off without the likes of him

 >Still though... another takes his place... we're never _without_
 >the likes of 'him'. What is it that provides for him, what
 >produces or suggests his validity -- what makes him a viable
 >alternative? That's the real question isn't it? If we truly
 >trusted our mainstream (felt like we were getting righteous
 >information from it), why would any of us be attracted to an
 >ever present fringe?

Hello, all, Alfred.

You know, I think that, while I agree we can and are being
treated like mushrooms by various entities, too numerous to
mention, I saw the participants of the Cooper study group as
people with drug and alcohol problems, (being part Indian myself
I've had to lay off the firewater, while not a falling down
drunk, it was controlling _me_) and they were, for lack of a
better word, outcasts of their own making.

Victims of a greater society. they thought of themselves as
victims, acted as if the whole world was plotting against them,
and, quite frankly, through Cooper, that the Jews were behind it
all, even to the point that aliens were supporting the Jews in
world domination!

Oh, what a bunch of Horse S**t. There is not one shred of
evidence to this. The local paper at that time (not the current
one by the by) published the 'Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion'
that was paid for by this group, the Editor never had a
disclaimer, or a rebuttal. The article included commentary by
Cooper ,as I think it was a standard press release form of
'Coopric' orgins.

I've been the object of prejudice, I grew up in a community
dominated by one religious group. Because of my "relativley"
dark skin, and (at one time) dark, nearly kinky hair, I was
accused of being 'Jewish' by these (rather inbred I might add)
blonde blue-eyed (almost to a person) folks. My Father looked
Hispanic (a blue-eyed Ramon Navarro) I didn't inherit his looks,
by the way. He didn't see himself a victim nor do I. But I, like
my father, fought back. He was never one to give up, neither am
I. We chose _not_ to be victims.

But, when you see yourself as a victim, quite frankly you are
dead meat - a deer in the headlights, so to speak. I see folks
on the fringe as that. Uncertain, quivering, unable to cope in
some way. The folks who rebel against, or at least question
authority are different. The way say a Nelson Mandela is
different than, say an Idi Amin or one of his idols, Adolf
Hitler. People of that ilk seek the victims, not IMHO, the
Rebels, the Authority Questioners. Those are the folks that
usually get hung or thrown in jail in a regime like the Third
Riech. The disenfranchised, the victim mentality, (real or
imagined) are the ones who put or give the Meglomanics the power
they need.


GT McCoy







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 15

                               Do You Believe?

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:58:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:57:12 -0500
Subject: Do You Believe?


Source: Anon

---

The husband stood in front of the bathroom mirror, carefully
flossing his teeth. "Ooh!" he would sigh every once in a while,
or "Aaah!" as the little thread did its work.

Suddenly and seemingly without provocation, his wife stomped
into the bathroom and gave him a swift kick.

Bewildered, the husband demanded, "What was that for?"

"I'm sorry," his wife replied stiffly... "but I just don't
believe in sighing flossers."

---

Mike


The truth can STAY out there
Send in a good FANTASY







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 15

              Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:58:10 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:11:19 -0500
Subject: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:09 -0500
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez

 >>From: Richard Hall hallrichard99@hotmail.com
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >Hi Dick,

 >Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
 >lately.

 >I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
 >tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
 >wrote:

 >>Antidote?

 >>Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >>antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

 >You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
 >and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
 >Indeed'.

 >He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
 >all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
 >administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
 >Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
 >Presidential Executive Order.

 >Now here's the kicker;

 >Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
 >contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
 >evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
 >less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
 >makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
 >is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
 >scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
 >at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
 >been executed by a combination of CIA and military
 >operatives/operations.

[SB] Since 'Strange Days...Indeed' is archived, this can be
checked, but I did not state categorically that Bush moved to
block the Reagan papers for UFO reasons (EBK can perhaps verify
this). Rather, I raised this possibility. Why? More than a few
journalists have jumped on this issue and are generally
perplexed why Bush would do this. There is enormous political
risk in trying to overrule an act of Congress by Presidential
decree. The 1978 Presidential Records Act was specifically
passed because of the actions of the Nixon administration toward
presidential papers and communications. Nixon's tenure was one
giant cover-up, which as we are all coming to learn, sat on top
of a host of other cover-ups, ad infinitum. The people were fed
up.

It would be tempting to assume that Bush's decree, which was
signed after 911, was a national security matter related to the
prosecution of the "war on terrorism." But Bush began blocking
the release of these papers as early as January of this year.
Why? If, as some journalists have suggested, it was to protect
his appointees from the Reagan administration with ties to his
father, and looking ahead to 2005 when his father's papers also
come under the aegis of the National Archivist, then he would be
creating a political disaster, with the prospect of embarrassing
information coming out down the line about Cheney, Powell,
Rumsfeld, Armitage, Negroponte, Abrams, Reich - all suppressed
by a sitting President for purely political, party-serving,
self- serving, staff-serving reasons by OVERRULING CONGRESS.
This could destroy the Republican Party for years.

Why on earth would a President who came to office in the closest
election in U.S. history, not even winning the popular vote,
move immediately to take such a political risk? Well, it is
worth noting that:

If Reagan was briefed on the UFO/ET matter, regardless of the
extent, if George H. W. Bush was also briefed and was in fact
slated to be the "disclosure president," then the release of
such papers would compromise the disclosure timeline of the
sitting president. And whatever that timeline was, the 911
calamity could only have set it back, thus making the delay of
the release of these presidential papers more essential, and
thus the four page decree.

Why raise the point publicly? Easy. The journalists trying to
understand Bush's actions are in no way considering the UFO/ET
factor because it is not permitted or they don't know better.
Raising the matter publicly is one way to prod these journalist
to think outside the box of their "safe" protocols.

 >Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
 >is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
 >executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
 >only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
 >himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
 >UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

 >Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
 >trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
 >never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
 >does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
 >anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

 >I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
 >running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
 >that help us?

 >We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >Strictly my opinion.

John's remaining comments are his opinion. I will respond to
only one part. "Dis-information" is a loaded word in the world
of UFO/ET research/activism. I made a decision to devote the
remainder of my life to cutting through 50 years of
dis-information and mis-infomation by our own government on a
range of issues directly and indirectly related to UFO/ET
phenomena, as well as helping others with the same goals.

Anyone who believes I am spreading "dis-information" is invited
to debate this publicly in any reasonable forum straight up.
Under such circumstances it can be readily ascertained who is
and who is not capable of "critical thinking".


Regards,

Stephen Bassett







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 15

              Re: Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 15 Nov 2001 06:00:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:18:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard

 >Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:51:05 -0500
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien Craft


 >Source: The Mobile Register, Alabama

 >http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standa
rd.xsl?/base/news/10053873262611734.xml

 >Conference Visitor Says He Spent Time Aboard Alien Craft

 >11/10/01

 >By RHODA A. PICKETT
 >Staff Reporter

 >They came from all over the Gulf Coast and as far away as
 >Vancouver, British Columbia to discuss the unusual, the
 >unexplained, the unseen, bordering on the unknown.

<snip>

 >Percy Galloway tended a table covered with videos and loose-leaf
 >books he had written about his experiences with the aliens. He
 >still remembers the day at age 5 when he was invited by aliens
 >to board their spaceship where he remained "for four Earth
 >hours."

 >Since then, they have continued to communicate with him,
 >sometimes visiting as many as 12 times a year, "depending on
 >their schedule," he said.

 >"They were on a mission to educate, and they are in everyday
 >life," Galloway said. "The aliens are just like us. Some are
 >good and some are bad. They are just like humankind.

 >"There is a body of good aliens that are forming a confederation
 >and a federation," he said. "Their main purpose is to keep the
 >other aliens from interfering with the governing bodies of the
 >planet's nations so that things won't become chaotic and start
 >World War III.

 >If WWIII does start, however, "they have a planet out in space
 >somewhere that's safe for us," said Galloway, now 60.

Percy has now been around for years. I remember when he first
started to think he had contact with aliens. A soft-spoken
person who is filled with pie-eyed delusions he pretty much
recounted contact with Pleiadians when Billy Meier was at the
height of interest.

-Bill Hamilton







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                         Re: Do You Believe? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:33:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:35:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Do You Believe? - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:58:56 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Do You Believe?

 >Source: Anon

 >---

 >The husband stood in front of the bathroom mirror, carefully
 >flossing his teeth. "Ooh!" he would sigh every once in a while,
 >or "Aaah!" as the little thread did its work.

 >Suddenly and seemingly without provocation, his wife stomped
 >into the bathroom and gave him a swift kick.

 >Bewildered, the husband demanded, "What was that for?"

Hola Mike,

You had the cohones to write:

 >"I'm sorry," his wife replied stiffly... "but I just don't
 >believe in sighing flossers."

"Sighing flossers?" Ouch!!! I've heard some corny jokes in my
time Woodsy, but I think we have a winner ladies and germs!
<LOL>


Grimacing painfully...

John Velez ;)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

               Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:00:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:47:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:58:10 EST
 >Subject: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William Cooper Killed...]
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:09 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez

 >>>From: Richard Hall hallrichard99@hotmail.com
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>Hi Dick,

 >>Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
 >>lately.

 >>I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
 >>tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
 >>wrote:

 >>>Antidote?

 >>>Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >>>antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

 >>You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
 >>and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
 >>Indeed'.

 >>He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
 >>all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
 >>administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
 >>Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
 >>Presidential Executive Order.

 >>Now here's the kicker;
 >
 >>Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
 >>contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
 >>evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
 >>less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
 >>makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
 >>is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
 >>scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
 >>at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
 >>been executed by a combination of CIA and military
 >>operatives/operations.

Hi Stephen,

You wrote:

 >[SB] Since 'Strange Days...Indeed' is archived, this can be
 >checked, but I did not state categorically that Bush moved to
 >block the Reagan papers for UFO reasons (EBK can perhaps verify
 >this). Rather, I raised this possibility.

When you go back and review your own statements, listen
carefully to the parts where you declare that, "It is believed"
and "It is strongly believed" in reference to the "reason" for
George Bush's action. You may not have "stated categorically"
that hiding UFO information was the main reason for the
Executive Order but you sure were 'selling it' pretty hard. I'm
a born and raised New Yorker Stephen, I know a 'sucker pitch'
when I hear one. I told someone else here recently that, "you
can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool
Mom!" ;) (Said Spanky to Alfalfa)

 >Why? More than a few journalists have jumped on this issue and are
 >generally perplexed why Bush would do this.

Of course journalists have "jumped" on this issue. It represents
an act of willful suppression on the Presidential level. Bush
has taken it upon himself to wipe away with the stroke of a pen,
the people's right to know, and to access presidential documents
of historical importance. Dubya "probably" did it to protect his
old man from being tied directly to the Iran-Contra scandal. (As
Reagan's VP) And not as you suggest/sell that it has _anything_
(at all) to do with UFOs.

Aside from yourself Stephen, how many of these interested
journalists that you speak of are putting forth the 'theory'
that Bush's questionable act had anything at all to do with
UFOs?

"Where" did _you_ get such a notion?

Do you have any documentary or other substantial evidence that
clearly shows a connection between Bush's presidential order and
repression of UFO information? Or are you the only one spreading
this peanut butter around?

Or is it (as I suspect) your own personal 'interpretation'? An
interpretation that maybe hopes to take advantage of all the
current media interest in the topic? An act of opportunism as
opposed to an act of contribution towards advancing the "cause"
of UFO disclosure. I gotta tell you Stephen, from the side-lines
it _screams_ opportunistic motives.

So, just what kind of 'attention' do you hope to get by peddling
such a far out and completely unsubstantiated (by you) theory?

How does your interjecting the 'UFO question', (your own
personal and unfounded speculations) into an issue that
threatens yet another one of our freedoms, (our right to access
the documentation associated with the administrations of our
elected officials) help to either; preserve our freedoms; or
advance the pawn on the UFO disclosure issue? Don't you have
better things to do (like compile and submit documentary
evidence to congressmen) as opposed to 'spinning yarns'?

It seems to me Stephen (as an observer) your artificial
"grafting" of the UFO question (without any documentation or
substantive proof or testimony) onto the the very important
issue of Bush's presumptive executive order does not help the
cause of those fighting to maintain our freedoms, or of the UFO
community in any positive fashion.

To the contrary:

You 'sound like' any other conspiracy advocate that sees a
'spook' in every closet. That is, unless you can substantiate
that there is in fact a connection. You just haven't offered
anything in the way of proof that would justify your outrageous
'theory'. Show me whatever it is that convinced you that there
is a connection and I'll help you spread the word. If not, you
have no business airing such theories in public - as the one and
only 'UFO lobbyist'. As 'yourself' you can express any theory
you wish.

That's what I meant when I said that you are making us _all_
look like a bunch of uncritical, thoughtless conspiracy nuts.
You have set yourself up as the 'UFO Lobbyist' in Washington. If
you're going to presume to represent the interests of the UFO
community, then you really ought to take into consideration how
your actions and proclamations reflect on the rest of us. At
least in the eyes of those people you speak to as; the 'UFO
Lobbyist'.

Personally I'm not terribly choked up about your introduction of
this red-herring issue into something with as much historical
significance as this. I would really like to hear some
_specific_ answers to the questions I have raised, Stephen. I
didn't vote for you, or hire you. If you're going to 'assume' to
represent me - as a member of the UFO community - then you need
to answer to me and 'The People'. You need to be more than a 'PR
Man' for the likes of Dr. Greer - the videotape salesman.

 >There is enormous political
 >risk in trying to overrule an act of Congress by Presidential
 >decree. The 1978 Presidential Records Act was specifically
 >passed because of the actions of the Nixon administration toward
 >presidential papers and communications. Nixon's tenure was one
 >giant cover-up, which as we are all coming to learn, sat on top
 >of a host of other cover-ups, ad infinitum. The people were fed
 >up.

 >It would be tempting to assume that Bush's decree, which was
 >signed after 911, was a national security matter related to the
 >prosecution of the "war on terrorism." But Bush began blocking
 >the release of these papers as early as January of this year.
 >Why? If, as some journalists have suggested, it was to protect
 >his appointees from the Reagan administration with ties to his
 >father, and looking ahead to 2005 when his father's papers also
 >come under the aegis of the National Archivist, then he would be
 >creating a political disaster, with the prospect of embarrassing
 >information coming out down the line about Cheney, Powell,
 >Rumsfeld, Armitage, Negroponte, Abrams, Reich - all suppressed
 >by a sitting President for purely political, party-serving,
 >self-serving, staff-serving reasons by OVERRULING CONGRESS.
 >This could destroy the Republican Party for years.

So what motivated you to attach/link the UFO question to all of
this?

 >Why on earth would a President who came to office in the closest
 >election in U.S. history, not even winning the popular vote,
 >move immediately to take such a political risk? Well, it is
 >worth noting that:

 >If Reagan was briefed on the UFO/ET matter, regardless of the
 >extent, if George H. W. Bush was also briefed and was in fact
 >slated to be the "disclosure president," then the release of
 >such papers would compromise the disclosure timeline of the
 >sitting president. And whatever that timeline was, the 911
 >calamity could only have set it back, thus making the delay of
 >the release of these presidential papers more essential, and
 >thus the four page decree.

 >Why raise the point publicly? Easy. The journalists trying to
 >understand Bush's actions are in no way considering the UFO/ET
 >factor because it is not permitted or they don't know better.
 >Raising the matter publicly is one way to prod these journalist
 >to think outside the box of their "safe" protocols.

And without any evidence or proof that there is _any_ connection
at all, you make the whole of the UFO community look like a
bunch of yeowling uncritical boobs. My word Stephen, can't you
see that?

I wrote:

 >>Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
 >>is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
 >>executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
 >>only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
 >>himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
 >>UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

 >>Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
 >>trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
 >>never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
 >>does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
 >>anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

 >>I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
 >>running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
 >>that help us?

 >>We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >>before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >>become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >>doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >>for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >>around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >>responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >>unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >>ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >>Strictly my opinion.

Stephen responds:

 >John's remaining comments are his opinion. I will respond to
 >only one part. "Dis-information" is a loaded word in the world
 >of UFO/ET research/activism.

What do you call it when someone, anyone, comes along and
arbitrarily attaches a distracting and unrelated issue/set of
theories onto an issue that is of tremendous and vital
importance to _all_ Americans? Someone who introduces un-related
information at a time when people are gathering the basic info
they will need to base their own conclusions and opinions on.
Someone who by their interjection of flotsam and jetsam only
serves to confuse an already complicated issue even more.

I call stuff like that "Dis-information" Stephen. What do you
call it?

 >I made a decision to devote the
 >remainder of my life to cutting through 50 years of
 >dis-information and mis-infomation by our own government on a
 >range of issues directly and indirectly related to UFO/ET
 >phenomena, as well as helping others with the same goals.

Yes, _you_ decided. Nobody elected you to represent the UFO
community before our elected officials. Which gives me the right
- as someone who is a part of the community you assume to rep
for - to asses your actions/activities in relation to the UFO
question.

 >Anyone who believes I am spreading "dis-information" is invited
 >to debate this publicly in any reasonable forum straight up.
 >Under such circumstances it can be readily ascertained who is
 >and who is not capable of "critical thinking".

The reason for my comments, in the first place, has to do with
your public display of uncritical thinking in regard to the
unfounded nonsense _you_alone_ are spreading about some
connection between UFO disclosure and Dubya's recent actions.

Unless you have something to back it up, you really shouldn't be
out there espousing such off the wall theories. You make us all
look bad in the eyes of those we seek to secure open public
hearings from.


Concerned ufologist,

John Velez







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                  Re: Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Matthews

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:02:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:50:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Matthews


Dear All,

Thanks for the many encouraging e-mails I have received re; our
Conference in Runcorn, Cheshire, UK, this Saturday, 17th
November.

People have asked what the nature of the "revelation" is. They
hear all kinds of claims about new material from time to time
and are often let down. Let me quite clearly state that the
stuff we have is entirely new and quite disturbing in many ways.
We still haven't been able to fully comprehend the whole picture
but we have new and significant parts of the Rendlesham case
NEVER researched by Ufology.

Furthermore, we have spoken this week to several witnesses to
the original incident not mentioned in either James Easton's
interesting piece for Fortean Times or in Georgina's impressive
You Can't Tell The People.

More on this and other mysteries over the weekend. I shall be
posting an introduction to our new information on Monday but you
should still try and get there for Saturday's event.

Phone (01606) 330567 or e-mail me for more.


Best wishes to all,

Tim Matthews
Per British UFO Studies Centre






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

               Cydonian Imperative: 11-16-01 - Another Unusual

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:01:35 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:54:03 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 11-16-01 - Another Unusual


The Cydonian Imperative
11-16-01

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Another Unusual Martian Crater
by Mac Tonnies

Keith Laney has located a Martian crater that features an
interestingly geometric "stadium"-like formation near its
center. The bracket-shaped enclosure (?) in the crater's center
is atypical, if nothing else. I find the fact that it appears
hard-edged (while the remainder of the crater is quite eroded
and rounded) interesting. Also of interest is the precise
semicircular feature near the crater's left-hand lip.

[image]

Many have theorized that if Mars is home to alien ruins, some of
these might reveal themselves as underground enclosures. The
strange "sunken" aspect of the Fort formation in Cydonia is
evidence of this, and anomalies near (or overlapping) crater
rims strengthen arguments that the always-hypothetical Martians
relied on impact basins for unknown reasons. (I personally
suspect that craters provided the hypothetical Martian
civilization with "ready-made" habitats, perhaps allowing easy
access to subsurface water ice.)

Interesting "plough marks" next to the Cliff (located adjacent
to a "splash"-style impact crater) also argue for a practical
architectural reason for building near, or within, meteor
craters. Marshall Savage, in his book "The Millennial Project,"
specifically addresses the advantages of erecting domes over
pre-existing craters for purposes of habitation; readers may
remember the curiously "Epcot-like" sphere featured in an
earlier installment.

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

end






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

               Eavesdropping On Attorney-Client Conversations

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 03:39:18 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:00:36 -0500
Subject: Eavesdropping On Attorney-Client Conversations



List and EBK,


Just a short post following along the great work produced by
Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org> 'Secrecy News' & posted to
this List.

This may interest our US colleagues? Well I hope so. Please note
it has been 'snipped', but the message is clear.

-----

Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64663-2001Nov8.html


U.S. Will Monitor Calls to Lawyers
Rule on Detainees Called 'Terrifying'

By George Lardner Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 9, 2001; Page A01

The Justice Department has decided to listen in on the
conversations of lawyers with clients in federal custody,
including people who have been detained but not charged with any
crime, whenever that is deemed necessary to prevent violence or
terrorism.

Attorney General John D. Ashcroft approved the eavesdropping
rule on an emergency basis last week, without the usual waiting
period for public comment. It went into effect immediately,
permitting the government to monitor conversations and intercept
mail between people in custody and their attorneys for up to a
year at a time.

The move, which the Justice Department said was necessary "in
view of the immediacy of the dangers to the public," stunned
defense lawyers and civil libertarians. They assailed it as an
unconstitutional attack on the right to counsel and, in the
words of American Civil Liberties Union official Laura W.
Murphy, "a terrifying precedent."

The monitoring of attorney-client conversations is the latest in
a series of extraordinary law enforcement measures the
government has taken in response to the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks on New York and Washington.

<5 para snip>

The president of the National Association of Criminal Defense
Lawyers, Irwin Schwartz of Seattle, denounced the eavesdropping
as "an abomination" and said it would be challenged in court at
the first opportunity.

"The Code of Professional Responsibility is quite clear: a
lawyer must maintain confidentiality," Schwartz said. "If we
can't speak with a client confidentially, we may not speak with
him at all. And if we can't do that, the client is stripped of
his Sixth Amendment right to have a lawyer."

<3 para snip>

Martin said monitoring of witnesses and others who have not been
convicted would be "particularly outrageous." Murphy, who is
director of the ACLU's Washington national office, agreed,
saying, "the idea that this could be happening to innocent
people is really disturbing." A lawyer's effectiveness, she
added, can be dramatically diminished if the government is
listening in, making a client fearful of disclosing all that the
attorney needs to know to mount a forceful defense.

<3 para snip>

END



http://www.washingtonpost.com/

Search Help = "george lardner" on washingtonpost.com:

-----

Yours Sincerely,

John W. Auchettl
Director - PRA

Karen Lambert
Supervisor - PRA



READ:
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691


PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2001 - 40 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE
========================================================





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                          2001 Leonid Meteor Shower

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:17:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:17:20 -0500
Subject: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/leonids_2001.html

SPECIAL REPORT: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower

The 2001 Leonid meteor shower peaks early Sunday, Nov. 18 and
promises to be the best shooting star show in 35 years.

Links:

2001 PREDICTIONS
30 U.S. Cities & World Forecast

METEOR PHOTOS
See Pictures & Submit Yours
How to Shoot Shooting Stars

SATELLITE THREAT
Military Satellites Prepared
Odds of an Impact Soar

MAKING A LEONID
What Causes the Shower?

THE 2001 STORM
How it Stacks Up
Against History

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


Source: Space.com

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/leonids_commentary_011116.html


Earthgrazers and Fireballs: The Strange Side of The Leonid
Meteor Shower

By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 07:00 am ET
16 November 2001


The Leonid meteor shower is a strange show. Its meteors are
among the fastest known. It is notoriously difficult to predict.
And it is a total night owl, refusing to show its best stuff
until well after midnight.

But while the 2001 Leonids will likely be remembered for the
sheer volume of shooting stars, there are some strange
characters to look for as the shower's source ekes above the
eastern horizon late Saturday night and early Sunday morning.

A handful of meteors will first zoom across the horizon for long
stretches of time. Earthgrazers, they're called. And if you're
real lucky, you might spot some fireballs -- larger meteors that
explode upon impact with Earth's atmosphere, generating
spectacular blazes of light (not to mention fear of alien
spacecraft and calls to local law enforcement offices).

Earthgrazers

Leonid meteors will take their time arriving Saturday night.
Wherever you are on Earth, you're viewing location has to rotate
into the stream of space dust that causes the Leonids. The
shooting stars will appear to emanate from a point in the sky
known as the radiant, which for the Leonids happens to be in the
constellation Leo (hence the name).

No knowledge of this is needed to find an earthgrazer. Just go
out and look to the East. The timing depends on where you live.
Figure mid-evening for high northern latitudes, such as Canada;
late evening hours for mid-northern latitudes, as in most of the
United States; and after midnight for equatorial regions and the
Southern Hemisphere.

What might you see?

"When the radiant lies near the horizon the Leonid meteors
cannot penetrate far into the Earth's atmosphere," explains
Robert Lunsford of the American Meteor Society. "At this time
they are only able to skim the upper atmosphere."

These earthgrazers, as scientists call them, often last several
seconds and can span a great distance of the sky, Lunsford said.

To see an earthgrazer, you'll need an unobstructed view of the
eastern horizon.

Later, as Earth continues rotating, the Leonid radiant moves
higher into the sky, along with its host constellation and all
the stars. Meteors will strike the atmosphere at a more direct
angle, Lunsford explains, creating shorter paths. But the paths
will still span much of the sky, so you don't need to face East.
In fact, the best views will be everywhere but directly East.

Just go out, look up.

Fireballs

Most Leonid meteors are created by sand-sized grains of dust
that vaporize about 60 miles up due to the friction caused by
Earth's atmosphere. But Tempel-Tuttle, the comet that has left
all this Leonid raw material in space, also deposits a few
larger chunks of itself each time it swings around the Sun
(which it does every 33 years).

A comet fragment the size of a marble can generate a glorious
fireball of light as it burns up. Instead of slicing through the
atmosphere like a small bit of dust, such a pebble sometimes
goes splat upon meeting up with a certain density of air.

"The Leonids can have fireballs, but they're not especially
noted for them," said Bill Cooke, a meteor researcher at NASA's
Marshall Space Flight Center. Cooke said the number of fireballs
each year depends in part on which streams of cometary debris
Earth plows through.

In 1998, observers noted several fireballs when the planet moved
through a stream that comet Tempel-Tuttle had deposited in the
14th Century. The Sun's radiation had blown much of that ancient
dust into a widely dispersed region of space, so the 1998
Leonids did not produce a great number of shooting stars.

But the larger material -- fireball material -- was still
relatively concentrated. In fact, Cooke said, scientists are
learning that gravity acts on these larger fragments, causing
them to be huddled more closely together over time. They call
the process "gravitational focusing."

So what are the chances for fireballs this year?

People in Asia will see shooting stars caused by material that
has been waiting to be swallowed up by Earth since 1633, so
there should be some fireballs there, Cooke said. The North
American peak will be caused by material left by Tempel-Tuttle
in the 1700s, however, and should provide fewer fireballs, but
probably still some.

Cooke is quick to point out that the Leonids can surprise,
however. There could be fewer meteors overall. Or there could be
more fireballs. Meteor forecasting is a young profession. And,
for now at least, meteor showers are still somewhat strange
-- even to the scientists.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                                Decoding E.T.

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:01:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:01:41 -0500
Subject: Decoding E.T.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_decode_011115.html



Decoding E.T.: Ancient Tongues Point Way To Learning Alien
Languages

By Doug Vakoch
SETI Institute
posted: 07:01 am ET
15 November 2001


The modern Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) is
based on the premise that a systematic search of the cosmos may
reveal artificial signals, transmitted either intentionally or,
somewhat like the leakage of TV and radio signals from Earth
today, as electromagnetic noise. But will these signals, if we
ever detect them, be more than simple beacons telling us that we
are not alone? What if the signals bear messages from an alien
civilization, attempting to describe the universe from the
perspective of an intelligent species evolved completely
independently of humankind?

If an extraterrestrial radio or optical signal is packed with
information, we might not know for sure until well after we have
determined that the signal is artificial. The SETI programs
currently underway focus their energies on finding strong
artificial signals=97not on detecting fluctuations of those
signals that might convey additional information. But with the
detection of a sign of intelligent life beyond Earth, stronger
search systems would no doubt follow, possibly revealing encoded
messages from extraterrestrials.

How would we go about deciphering such messages? SETI
researchers have long contended that the content of messages
intentionally beamed toward Earth would likely be heavy on math
and science=97at least in the early stages. These scientists
reason that if extraterrestrials are intelligent enough to build
radio telescopes or lasers capable of interstellar
communication, they will also be familiar with many of the same
principles of mathematics, physics, and chemistry that we use on
Earth. And while that may be true for the initial steps in an
interstellar codebook, how might extraterrestrials convey
something about the more unique aspects of their world=97such as
their culture and history?

Anthropologists Ben Finney and Jerry Bentley of the University
of Hawaii suggest that we might gain clues to decoding more
complex extraterrestrial messages by examining past attempts to
decode languages right here on Earth. But these scholars warn
that we need to be cautious about which examples to use for our
case studies.

Finney and Bentley note an oft-cited analogy for detecting a
message-laden signal from space: the transmission of knowledge
from ancient Greece to medieval Europe. Though any major
bookstore today has a wide variety of classics available=97often
in paperback editions at bargain prices=97during the Dark Ages,
Plato and Aristotle weren=92t so easy to come by.

In fact, European scholars had lost vast numbers of Greek works
on philosophy, literature, and science. But fortunately, copies
of these works were well-protected by Islamic scholars,
particularly in Spain and Sicily. Thus, as Europe entered the
Renaissance, Western scholars were able to reclaim Greek
classics from Islamic centers of learning, either directly from
Greek editions or through Arabic translations. And thus, over
decades and centuries, the "young" European civilization was
able to learn from the older Greek civilization, although the
two were separated by long expanses of time.

The analogy has natural affinities with contact between Earth
and the much older extraterrestrial civilizations being sought
by SETI. If we do detect information-rich signals, it is
possible that they will come from civilizations long since dead.
The impact, we expect, would be even more edifying than the
influx of ancient thought was for early modern Europe. This
reclaiming of ancient knowledge provided Europeans with
alternative perspectives to some of their typical ways of
viewing the world, in turn leading to new syntheses of modern
European and ancient Greek insights. If some day we detect and
decode messages from civilizations beyond Earth, we will have
similar opportunities to juxtapose terrestrial and otherworldly
views.

But, Finney and Bentley warn us, perhaps it won=92t be quite that
easy. While the Greek comparison is informative, as with any
analogy, it does not tell the whole story. For a more nuanced
understanding, we can turn to other examples of decoding ancient
scripts. In the next article in this series, we will follow
Finney and Bentley=92s lead, and examine other analogues of
decoding extraterrestrial messages, drawing on more recent
attempts to translate ancient Maya and Etruscan texts.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                      Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:00:33 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:21:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni


From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:02:22 EST
Subject: RENDLESHAM REVELATION (2)
To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >People have asked what the nature of the "revelation" is. They
 >hear all kinds of claims about new material from time to time
 >and are often let down. Let me quite clearly state that the
 >stuff we have is entirely new and quite disturbing in many ways.
 >We still haven't been able to fully comprehend the whole picture
 >but we have new and significant parts of the Rendlesham case
 >NEVER researched by Ufology.


Dear Tim and Listmembers

Congratulations Tim, on discovering some new information on the
Rendlesham case. This has been a good year for Rendlesham, not
only with the release of some of the MOD's files, but with new
witnesses now willing to talk.

There are more Questions being tabled in the House of Lords and
Lord Hill Norton is quietly working on Ministers in the hope
that they will release more information. A senior minister at
the MOD has now heard Halt's recording of the event and agrees
it offers a graphic account but will still not admit that the
incident offers clear evidence that the UK's Air Defence was
compromised. Requests are being made to the USAF regarding their
involvement.

A Birmingham UFO group will be running a series of talks on
Rendlesham next year, which will help to keep the case open. I
will be talking at the Ghost Club in London (weird) on 12
January, and in February in Birmingham. Other lecturers will be
heard on different dates.

May I take this opportunity to apologise for not being able to
talk at the Cornwall conference in October, or BUFORA in early
November, due to illness. Nick Pope kindly appeared in my place
for the BUFORA talk and gave an excellent presentation on
Rendlesham.

I do hope that Tim's new information will indeed fill in some
gaps, and I look forward to these new revelations. I will not be
able to attend the talk on Saturday, but I hope it is a great
success.

PS, Tim, you did not mention my article in Fortean Times, which
summarised the case in one page following four pages of
selective cutting and pasting on Easton's part, with countless
quotes (which we've all had to endure many times here on
Updates) from Halt's interviews with a radio presenter, along
with wild theories of the UFO being, if I recall, a tractor!

May I also remind everybody that my paperback, 'You Can't Tell
The People, The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO
Mystery', was published on 9 November by Pan Books (Macmillan)
and is available in all good book shops and on-line at:
www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com

The paperback contains the following updates:

  1. The Questions and Answers tabled in the House of Lords

  2. The MOD's reaction to my book and the problems caused by
     my launch party in the basement at MOD Main Building

  3. Former Prison officer reveals that pages went missing
     from Prison Log books during Rendlesham incident.

  4. Why the MOD dropped an interview with their in house
     magazine

  5. Witness from local fire brigade claims he was barred
     from entering the base because there was a UFO over
     Woodbridge.

  6. New information from Colonel Halt including description
     of the UFO in the forest and other tapes that he has in
     his possession.

  7. My own weird encounter in Rendlesham Forest with the
     case's biggest sceptic, Vince Thurkettle. Quite a
     remarkable event!

  8. The truth about Larry Warren's alleged landing site

  9. The Rendlesham incident during the 1800's

10. Weird happening going on now in the forest

11. A primary witness admits that Halt's patrol witnessed
     translucent human type entities at the landing site.

12. Summary of the MOD's Rendlesham file.


Best wishes

Georgina






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

              Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Bassett

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:33:50 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:27:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Bassett


 >Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:00:31 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed'

 >>From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:58:10 EST
 >>Subject: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William Cooper
Killed...]
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
 >>>Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:09 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez

 >>>>From: Richard Hall hallrichard99@hotmail.com
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>>Hi Dick,

 >>>Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
 >>>lately.

 >>>I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
 >>>tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
 >>>wrote:

 >>>>Antidote?

 >>>>Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >>>>antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

 >>>You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
 >>>and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
 >>>Indeed'.

 >>>He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
 >>>all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
 >>>administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
 >>>Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
 >>>Presidential Executive Order.

 >>>Now here's the kicker;

 >>>Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
 >>>contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
 >>>evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
 >>>less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
 >>>makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
 >>>is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
 >>>scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
 >>>at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
 >>>been executed by a combination of CIA and military
 >>>operatives/operations.

 >Hi Stephen,

 >You wrote:

 >>[SB] Since 'Strange Days...Indeed' is archived, this can be
 >>checked, but I did not state categorically that Bush moved to
 >>block the Reagan papers for UFO reasons (EBK can perhaps verify
 >>this). Rather, I raised this possibility.

 >When you go back and review your own statements, listen
 >carefully to the parts where you declare that, "It is believed"
 >and "It is strongly believed" in reference to the "reason" for
 >George Bush's action. You may not have "stated categorically"
 >that hiding UFO information was the main reason for the
 >Executive Order but you sure were 'selling it' pretty hard. I'm
 >a born and raised New Yorker Stephen, I know a 'sucker pitch'
 >when I hear one. I told someone else here recently that, "you
 >can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool
 >Mom!" ;) (Said Spanky to Alfalfa)

 >>Why? More than a few journalists have jumped on this issue and are
 >>generally perplexed why Bush would do this.

 >Of course journalists have "jumped" on this issue. It represents
 >an act of willful suppression on the Presidential level. Bush
 >has taken it upon himself to wipe away with the stroke of a pen,
 >the people's right to know, and to access presidential documents
 >of historical importance. Dubya "probably" did it to protect his
 >old man from being tied directly to the Iran-Contra scandal. (As
 >Reagan's VP) And not as you suggest/sell that it has _anything_
 >(at all) to do with UFOs.

 >Aside from yourself Stephen, how many of these interested
 >journalists that you speak of are putting forth the 'theory'
 >that Bush's questionable act had anything at all to do with
 >UFOs?

 >"Where" did _you_ get such a notion?

 >Do you have any documentary or other substantial evidence that
 >clearly shows a connection between Bush's presidential order and
 >repression of UFO information? Or are you the only one spreading
 >this peanut butter around?

 >Or is it (as I suspect) your own personal 'interpretation'? An
 >interpretation that maybe hopes to take advantage of all the
 >current media interest in the topic? An act of opportunism as
 >opposed to an act of contribution towards advancing the "cause"
 >of UFO disclosure. I gotta tell you Stephen, from the side-lines
 >it _screams_ opportunistic motives.

 >So, just what kind of 'attention' do you hope to get by peddling
 >such a far out and completely unsubstantiated (by you) theory?

 >How does your interjecting the 'UFO question', (your own
 >personal and unfounded speculations) into an issue that
 >threatens yet another one of our freedoms, (our right to access
 >the documentation associated with the administrations of our
 >elected officials) help to either; preserve our freedoms; or
 >advance the pawn on the UFO disclosure issue? Don't you have
 >better things to do (like compile and submit documentary
 >evidence to congressmen) as opposed to 'spinning yarns'?

 >It seems to me Stephen (as an observer) your artificial
 >"grafting" of the UFO question (without any documentation or
 >substantive proof or testimony) onto the the very important
 >issue of Bush's presumptive executive order does not help the
 >cause of those fighting to maintain our freedoms, or of the UFO
 >community in any positive fashion.

 >To the contrary:

 >You 'sound like' any other conspiracy advocate that sees a
 >'spook' in every closet. That is, unless you can substantiate
 >that there is in fact a connection. You just haven't offered
 >anything in the way of proof that would justify your outrageous
 >'theory'. Show me whatever it is that convinced you that there
 >is a connection and I'll help you spread the word. If not, you
 >have no business airing such theories in public - as the one and
 >only 'UFO lobbyist'. As 'yourself' you can express any theory
 >you wish.

 >That's what I meant when I said that you are making us _all_
 >look like a bunch of uncritical, thoughtless conspiracy nuts.
 >You have set yourself up as the 'UFO Lobbyist' in Washington. If
 >you're going to presume to represent the interests of the UFO
 >community, then you really ought to take into consideration how
 >your actions and proclamations reflect on the rest of us. At
 >least in the eyes of those people you speak to as; the 'UFO
 >Lobbyist'.

 >Personally I'm not terribly choked up about your introduction of
 >this red-herring issue into something with as much historical
 >significance as this. I would really like to hear some
 >_specific_ answers to the questions I have raised, Stephen. I
 >didn't vote for you, or hire you. If you're going to 'assume' to
 >represent me - as a member of the UFO community - then you need
 >to answer to me and 'The People'. You need to be more than a 'PR
 >Man' for the likes of Dr. Greer - the videotape salesman.

 >>There is enormous political
 >>risk in trying to overrule an act of Congress by Presidential
 >>decree. The 1978 Presidential Records Act was specifically
 >>passed because of the actions of the Nixon administration toward
 >>presidential papers and communications. Nixon's tenure was one
 >>giant cover-up, which as we are all coming to learn, sat on top
 >>of a host of other cover-ups, ad infinitum. The people were fed
 >>up.

 >>It would be tempting to assume that Bush's decree, which was
 >>signed after 911, was a national security matter related to the
 >>prosecution of the "war on terrorism." But Bush began blocking
 >>the release of these papers as early as January of this year.
 >>Why? If, as some journalists have suggested, it was to protect
 >>his appointees from the Reagan administration with ties to his
 >>father, and looking ahead to 2005 when his father's papers also
 >>come under the aegis of the National Archivist, then he would be
 >>creating a political disaster, with the prospect of embarrassing
 >>information coming out down the line about Cheney, Powell,
 >>Rumsfeld, Armitage, Negroponte, Abrams, Reich - all suppressed
 >>by a sitting President for purely political, party-serving,
 >>self-serving, staff-serving reasons by OVERRULING CONGRESS.
 >>This could destroy the Republican Party for years.

 >So what motivated you to attach/link the UFO question to all of
 >this?

 >>Why on earth would a President who came to office in the closest
 >>election in U.S. history, not even winning the popular vote,
 >>move immediately to take such a political risk? Well, it is
 >>worth noting that:

 >>If Reagan was briefed on the UFO/ET matter, regardless of the
 >>extent, if George H. W. Bush was also briefed and was in fact
 >>slated to be the "disclosure president," then the release of
 >>such papers would compromise the disclosure timeline of the
 >>sitting president. And whatever that timeline was, the 911
 >>calamity could only have set it back, thus making the delay of
 >>the release of these presidential papers more essential, and
 >>thus the four page decree.

 >>Why raise the point publicly? Easy. The journalists trying to
 >>understand Bush's actions are in no way considering the UFO/ET
 >>factor because it is not permitted or they don't know better.
 >>Raising the matter publicly is one way to prod these journalist
 >>to think outside the box of their "safe" protocols.

 >And without any evidence or proof that there is _any_ connection
 >at all, you make the whole of the UFO community look like a
 >bunch of yeowling uncritical boobs. My word Stephen, can't you
 >see that?

 >I wrote:

 >>>Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
 >>>is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
 >>>executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
 >>>only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
 >>>himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
 >>>UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

 >>>Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
 >>>trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
 >>>never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
 >>>does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
 >>>anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

 >>>I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
 >>>running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
 >>>that help us?

 >>>We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >>>before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >>>become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >>>doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >>>for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >>>around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >>>responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >>>unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >>>ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >>>Strictly my opinion.

 >Stephen responds:

 >>John's remaining comments are his opinion. I will respond to
 >>only one part. "Dis-information" is a loaded word in the world
 >>of UFO/ET research/activism.

 >What do you call it when someone, anyone, comes along and
 >arbitrarily attaches a distracting and unrelated issue/set of
 >theories onto an issue that is of tremendous and vital
 >importance to _all_ Americans? Someone who introduces un-related
 >information at a time when people are gathering the basic info
 >they will need to base their own conclusions and opinions on.
 >Someone who by their interjection of flotsam and jetsam only
 >serves to confuse an already complicated issue even more.

 >I call stuff like that "Dis-information" Stephen. What do you
 >call it?

 >>I made a decision to devote the
 >>remainder of my life to cutting through 50 years of
 >>dis-information and mis-infomation by our own government on a
 >>range of issues directly and indirectly related to UFO/ET
 >>phenomena, as well as helping others with the same goals.

 >Yes, _you_ decided. Nobody elected you to represent the UFO
 >community before our elected officials. Which gives me the right
 >- as someone who is a part of the community you assume to rep
 >for - to asses your actions/activities in relation to the UFO
 >question.

 >>Anyone who believes I am spreading "dis-information" is invited
 >>to debate this publicly in any reasonable forum straight up.
 >>Under such circumstances it can be readily ascertained who is
 >>and who is not capable of "critical thinking".

 >The reason for my comments, in the first place, has to do with
 >your public display of uncritical thinking in regard to the
 >unfounded nonsense _you_alone_ are spreading about some
 >connection between UFO disclosure and Dubya's recent actions.

 >Unless you have something to back it up, you really shouldn't be
 >out there espousing such off the wall theories. You make us all
 >look bad in the eyes of those we seek to secure open public
 >hearings from.

 >Concerned ufologist,

 >John Velez


While the above comments by John contain enough bait to fill a
freezer full of trout, my intentions regarding this issue were
clearly stated in my previous post.

However, intentions don't always match up with execution. I
checked in with EBK and learned that past Strange Days.....
Indeed programs are not yet (but soon) available in archive. So
I am not able to review that program at this time. However, it
was EBK's sense that I did, in fact, go beyond "raising the
possibility" of a UFO/ET aspect to Bush's presidential records
maneuver to "selling" the idea as "my explanation" for these
actions. That's not appropriate.

Perhaps, my frustration at seeing the political efforts toward
disclosure significantly set back by 9-11, was showing. I shall
endeavor to be more careful.

Regards,

Steve Bassett







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                          Secrecy News -- 11/16/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:52:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:33:22 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/16/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 16, 2001


**      THE SECRETIVE BUSH ADMINISTRATION
**      NEW RESOURCES ON TERRORISM
**      MORE CRITICISM OF PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ORDER
**      DECLASSIFICATION NEWS


THE SECRETIVE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

Taken individually, each of the new national security policies
adopted by the Bush Administration in recent weeks has its pros
and cons, its potential excesses and mitigating factors.  But
collectively, they represent a striking new concentration of
power in the executive branch and a transformation of the
national security landscape.

What common factors underlie diverse measures such as military
tribunals for suspected foreign terrorists, the monitoring of
certain attorney-client conversations, and new restrictions on
disclosure of historical presidential records, among other
recent policy excursions?

Each involves an expansion of the exercise of executive branch
authority with diminished opportunity for independent oversight,
and little or no provision for public accountability.

The new policies are being unilaterally adopted faster than they
can be assessed by Congress.  In effect, the Administration is
altering the institutional balance that has been gradually honed
over recent decades, and jettisoning the experience on which
that balance was based.

It is not necessary to attribute any malicious intent to the
Bush Administration in order to conclude that its new policies
will make the abuse of government power more feasible, harder to
detect, and much more difficult to correct.

Several of the new policies were surveyed in a November 15
Associated Press story, "U.S. More Tightlipped Since September
11," by Deb Riechmann.  The story, with links to related
documents, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/11/ap111501.html


NEW RESOURCES ON TERRORISM

The British Government this week published an updated version of
its report on "Responsibility for the Terrorist Atrocities in
the United States, 11 September 11 2001," which outlines on an
unclassified basis the case against Usama bin Laden and Al
Qaida.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ukreport.html

The U.S. State Department belatedly published a comparable
report of its own on "The Network of Terrorism" which is
glossier but no more substantive than the UK report. See:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/terrornet/

The Library of Congress has prepared a helpful compilation of
"Legislation Related to the Attack of September 11, 2001" of
which there has been quite a bit.  See:

http://rs9.loc.gov/home/terrorleg.htm


MORE CRITICISM OF PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ORDER

In an encouraging display of critical opposition, resistance to
the recent Bush executive order that would impede public access
to historical Presidential records continues to mount.

"Although the president may have hoped that this executive order
might go unnoticed, the backlash is already fierce," according
to the San Francisco Chronicle (11/11/01):

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/11/ED81
976.DTL

"The Bush order [is] entirely too restrictive," says the
Christian Science Monitor (11/14/01):

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1114/p8s3-comv.html

"Since Mr. Bush is unlikely to rescind his own order, Congress
must pass a law doing so," the New York Times editorialized
(11/15/01):

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/15/opinion/15THU4.html

"With a stroke of the pen on Nov. 1, President Bush stabbed
history in the back," wrote historian Richard Reeves today,
hyperventilating a little for the New York Times op-ed page:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/16/opinion/16REEV.html


DECLASSIFICATION NEWS

On November 14, the United Kingdom Public Records Office
announced "the eighth and largest Security Service release,
consisting of just over 200 files, bringing the total number of
MI5 records in the public domain to 1120."  See:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/nov2001-MI5/introduction.htm

Also on November 14, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
disclosed the contents of two "declassified" situation reports
from U.S. Special Forces units in Afghanistan.

The new disclosures include observations from the field such as:
"everywhere I go the civilians and mujahadeen soldiers are
always telling me they are glad the USA has come."  See:

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/2001/s20011114-depsecdef.htm
l


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

             Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Johnstone

From: Lara <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:06:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:28:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Johnstone


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:58:10 EST
 >Subject: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Stephen and others,

I am sure many will disagree with me on this, and many will say
'where is the evidence'? I don't have any 'evidence' except a
gut feeling, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me on it,
however I do wish to share it. Let all make up their own minds,
as I no doubt they will. :-)

 >[SB] Since 'Strange Days...Indeed' is archived, this can be
 >checked, but I did not state categorically that Bush moved to
 >block the Reagan papers for UFO reasons (EBK can perhaps verify
 >this). Rather, I raised this possibility.

Personally, my thoughts are this:

- President Bush realizes that for full UFO disclosure to occur,
other related disclosures will need to occur first, since they
are all related (Drug War, Foreign Policy, etc).

- In order to get UFO disclosure (which will require a huge
amount of support, not only from the US public, and will need to
be bipartisan, as well as include many religious leaders, as
well as leaders from the rest of the world), other disclosures
may need to occur before that. The issue is too big to just come
out with on Larry King, as I have stated before (considering
abductions etc, etc.) and the ramifications, as Dr. Greer has
stated (and Grant Cameron explained to me) could be similar to
ten WTC bombings on the same day (ie in how it would affect some
persons 'beliefs' and so on).

Considering this, it would be wise for any president who wanted
to come forward with disclosure, which I still think Pres. Bush
wants to, and is working towards, to be able to have a public
which was more aware, more responsible, and not running around
with knee jerk violent reactions. It would be good to have a
situation that could be monitored/contained so that those who
felt the most threatened by such a 'belief shattering' event
could feel 'safe'.

Before that could occur, other nations who also will be affected
would need to be apprised, so that they could help the
transition to occur. Especially nations which have strong
fundamentalist roots.

Also before disclosure could occur, issues such as the drug war,
and terrorism would need to be addressed. I don't think that
America could deal with the issue of UFO disclosure, when issues
such as foreign threats etc. were also a worry on their list of
problems.

RE: the issue of blocking the Reagan papers, and requiring that
all Presidents are given the opportunity to 'block' the release
of their papers, I imagine Pres. Bush wants to give these
Presidents the opportunity to feel that they are included in the
decision, that he is not going to release their papers withhout
giving them the opportunity to be part of such a decision. He
needs all of thier support, and I hope they will give it to him.
 From the 'outside' for those of us who are bent on 'conspiracy
minded ideas' it does look 'negative' but from his view (which
is my interpretation) it is a very courageous thing to do, and
he is in my opinion acting like a courageous statesman, being
inclusive in this decision. Of course I could have it all wrong,
but
those are my thoughts.

 >Why? More than a few
 >journalists have jumped on this issue and are generally
 >perplexed why Bush would do this.

I can understand their perplexity :-) I'm not sure many realize
how and what it will take to get Disclosure, and since many
journalists have been afraid to investigate the UFO issue, and
even less are aware as to how it is so deeply involved and
related to other black-ops issues, the funding of black-ops
issues, etc. -- it is a big conundrun - to say the least. I am
not even sure that many in the military involved in the UFO
issue may have been aware of how the Drug War and other Foreign
Policy related issues 'fitted in' with the UFO issue.

We cannot have disclosure of one without the others, as I have
stated before, and which I am even more convinced of now. Then
there is also the issue of how this would affect many
businesses, and they need to be apprised before disclosure, the
oil industry, the financial industry, the stock market, etc.

 >There is enormous political
 >risk in trying to overrule an act of Congress by Presidential
 >decree. The 1978 Presidential Records Act was specifically
 >passed because of the actions of the Nixon administration toward
 >presidential papers and communications. Nixon's tenure was one
 >giant cover-up, which as we are all coming to learn, sat on top
 >of a host of other cover-ups, ad infinitum. The people were fed
 >up.

The people may be fed up, but I imagine that many who have been
trying to maintain the coverup and who have suffered with
bearing the load of these secrets, and receiving only blame for
it, are probably as fed up, if not more. My thoughts are that
they are working for disclosure, and the enormity of it does not
make it any easier for them, and yet they also need the support
of the public and especially as and when disclosure gets closer
they are going to need those who REALLY want UFO disclosure to
be willing to get over their petty differences and be ready to
be support and voices of reason, responsibility and
understanding to many who are going to be really stunned by such
revelations.

My suggestions would be that people start the discussion of how
to setup community support groups in all major cities and
especially in places where 'strong religious beliefs' may be
threatened to help people deal with these issues, especially the
issue of abductions. I am pretty open-minded and when I heard
about it -- well it shocked the living daylights out of me, I
cannot imagine what or how it would affect some people in the
MidWest, or those in the Christian fundamentalist movement. It
will be one thing for them to read about it in the paper and
think 'holy cow' and another to be able to go to a local
community meeting or meet someone who can explain to them in
calm terms their experiences.

 >It would be tempting to assume that Bush's decree, which was
 >signed after 911, was a national security matter related to the
 >prosecution of the "war on terrorism."

Indeed the 'war on terrorism' needs to be dealt with, since the
ufo cover-up disclosure will bring forth the information as to
how the US has used reverse engineered technologies to subjugate
the rest of the world. It is therefore imperative for Bush and
the government to not have to deal with terrorist acts in the
middle of disclosure. The Drug war needs to be dealt with,
because one of the first things people will ask is: how was this
financed? Well, it was financed by waging a war on drugs, and
selling it to the people and making money to finance the
black-ops projects. Then you have the issue of the african
american and prison communities who suffered from the drug war
-- their anger and so on needs to be contained and they need to
be supported, otherwise it will just be a civil war. Does anyone
get the picture?

This, I imagine is some of the dialogue going on with other
nations, requesting that they support Disclosure and not
over-react, since in the end disclosure -- if it goes ahead
calmly and responsibly -- will in effect benefit them as much as
America, and will then lead to a world where less oppression and
more justice, truth and forgiveness will occur.

As that crazy in Patch Adams said when he held up his four
fingers and said "What do you see?" We have to look beyond the
problem, we have to see how we are going to support one another
to deal with the problem. If we cannot do that, the problem will
consume us and we will sink in the quicksand of our own
making...

 >But Bush began blocking
 >the release of these papers as early as January of this year.

He did say that one of the first things he would do when coming
into office would be to start the disclosure process. He seems
to be more aware of exactly what a monumental task that is, than
many in the disclosure movement do! :-)

 >Why? If, as some journalists have suggested, it was to protect
 >his appointees from the Reagan administration with ties to his
 >father, and looking ahead to 2005 when his father's papers also
 >come under the aegis of the National Archivist, then he would be
 >creating a political disaster, with the prospect of embarrassing
 >information coming out down the line about Cheney, Powell,
 >Rumsfeld, Armitage, Negroponte, Abrams, Reich - all suppressed
 >by a sitting President for purely political, party-serving,
 >self- serving, staff-serving reasons by OVERRULING CONGRESS.
 >This could destroy the Republican Party for years.

You may be right, but I see it from a total different point of
view. We cannot expect these people to come forward if we are
barking at them like a pack of hyena's, ready to tear them to
shreds. If we are not willing to listen, to be calm,
responsible, support them by supporting those who will be most
seriously affected in their beliefs, then we should all forget
about wanting disclosure.

This is not about party politics, it is about bringing out the
truth, and being willing to let these people speak and trying to
find it in ourselves to hear their stories, as to their motives,
their knowledge and the evidence. The Republican party cannot do
it on it's own, it needs not only the other parties support, but
also the support of as many brave Americans who are willing to
put truth before ideology, hate, religion, etc for the
betterment of mankind, which in the end will be for the benefit
of America, humanity and may lead to our exploration of the
cosmos -- but before that we have some serious work to do! :-)

 >Why on earth would a President who came to office in the closest
 >election in U.S. history, not even winning the popular vote,
 >move immediately to take such a political risk? Well, it is
 >worth noting that:
 >
 >If Reagan was briefed on the UFO/ET matter, regardless of the
 >extent, if George H. W. Bush was also briefed and was in fact
 >slated to be the "disclosure president,"

Which he is trying his best to do -- in my opinion.

 >then the release of
 >such papers would compromise the disclosure timeline of the
 >sitting president. And whatever that timeline was, the 911
 >calamity could only have set it back, thus making the delay of
 >the release of these presidential papers more essential, and
 >thus the four page decree.

No, 911 did not set it back, I imagine 911 was part of it -- as
difficult as that is to say. I don't think this is about
delaying the release of the papers, only about bringing out the
information in a timely way that addresses the issues that need
to be addressed before UFO disclosure can occur.

 >Why raise the point publicly? Easy. The journalists trying to
 >understand Bush's actions are in no way considering the UFO/ET
 >factor because it is not permitted or they don't know better.
 >Raising the matter publicly is one way to prod these journalist
 >to think outside the box of their "safe" protocols.

Good idea... but maybe a bigger box is an idea, a box that
includes the other disclosures so closely related to UFO
disclosure.... ! ;-)

[John Velez]
 >>We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >>before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >>become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >>doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >>for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >>around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >>responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >>unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >>ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >>Strictly my opinion.

Very valid opinion, in my opinion John! ;-) And while I disagree
with Steve on some issues, as above, and also with Greer on many
issues, I also appreciate very much and respect what they have
gone through (and anyone for that matter, including the
witnesses, experiencers etc.) to bring us this far.

 >Anyone who believes I am spreading "dis-information" is invited
 >to debate this publicly in any reasonable forum straight up.

I don't think you are spreading dis-information, I think you are
only sharing your point of view, and I appreciate it, even
though I disagree with some of it!

 >Under such circumstances it can be readily ascertained who is
 >and who is not capable of "critical thinking".

That's funny! ;-) Thanks!

Lara




+------------------------------------------------------+
|  I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for  |
| justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a |
| human being first and foremost, and as such I am for |
| whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole. |
+------------------- Malcolm X. -----------------------+
|The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor, |
|      is the mind of the oppressed        |
+-------------------- Steve Biko-----------------------+
| Perhaps love is the process of my leading you gently |
|         back to yourself.          |
+------------ Antoine De Saint-Exupery ----------------+







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

              Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:45:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:30:25 -0500
Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:29:14 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:47:01 -0600

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:55:27 -0600

 ><snip>

<snip>

 >Hi Alf,

I'm not partial to "Alf", Mr. Goldstein. Alfred or Mr. Lehmberg, please.

 >To answer your question of "what made Cooper?":

 >Paranoid Schizophrenia. His imbalanced neurotransmitters made
 >his brain go /////////;l;l;=E6'?'[]=3D;][l,'=C5,, :

Very colorful... but that wasn't altogether my question, Mr.
Goldstein, forgetting for a moment that while it may be that you
could get select headshrinkers to agree with your broad brushed
contention, you're not really competent to make that call
yourself, are you? Additionally, there is stuff going on around
us that made his alleged psychosis seem attractive to more than
a few people across this nation. Denial of that "aggregate
craziness" which provides fertile ground for someone like Mr.
Cooper demonstrates a naivet=E9 on your part that I think you
later thinly accuse _me_ of.

 >I don't remember if you saw him perform live or met him
 >personally. If you did, then I fail to see how even you would
 >try to defend him.

I think you would _have_ me defend him to satisfy a personal
issue you make a little plainer, later, but I don't _defend_
him, Mr. Goldstein... I point out that there was considerable
grist for Cooper's too strident mill... I question his very
genesis -- what's in the grassroots to sustain him, why he
continues (or continued) to get the validation that he continued
to get... Not defense, Mr. Goldstein, interested speculation.

 >I just posted that if you would just look at
 >his newsletter and learn what he has done to other people you
 >would not ask that question.

What question, sir? "Why"? And what "one man did to many people"
is not the issue, and a digression. The issue is what has to
occur for someone like Cooper to achieve viability. Hitler,
already used in comparison, had a bad faith deal for Germany
with France and GB wading in to steal everything they could
"fair and square..." after the first war. It's argued that
Hitler was not so much the cause of WWII, but the rest of the
European leadership... fertile ground. You'll remember that that
identical mistake was NOT made at the conclusion of the _second_
war...

 >I sure hope you don't harbor any
 >illusions that he died as some sort of counter cultural hero in
 >that police shootout.

Please -- but I think you would be happy (and oddly relieved
somehow) if I were... and what's up with that?

 >He was as crazed as a rabid dog and just
 >baiting the police to get into a gunfight. The crazed Cooper was
 >too cowardly to surrender and instead shot a good family man,
 >his wife, and kids. All I want to do is forget about Cooper and
 >I hope everyone else does.

Ok... then what about that guy that replaces him? Forgetting
Cooper does not provide for the end of all Coopers... Forgetting
him seems to court the unremembered history coming back to
repeat itself. Forgetting him is not the best answer in that
light. Would you agree?

 >Alf, sheepishly speaking, sometimes you just get my goat. That's
 >in plain English with a direct and profound meaning.

Ah yes. Well, sometimes when I get _really_ irritated with
someone it's because I know how right they are. That's not quite
as direct, but the English is just as plain, and a little more
profound I think.

 >You crack me up. Your positions on what is happening on this
 >planet, in the cosmos, and its relationship to other humans is
 >that most people have been manipulated by the controlled mass
 >media propaganda machinery serving those who hijacked our
 >society.

Boy. I hope you'll let me write that down -- a very succinct
impact statement on my position.

 >They do not see things as do you and a handful of
 >visionaries.

It's the poetry isn't it? Me and a handful of visionaries...
that's rather insulting. Did you mean that the way it sounded? I
reject that out of hand, regardless, as an invention all your
own. It's like me painting you and a handful of your
like-minders as ethnocentric troglodytes, a condition you would
find equally objectionable and rejectable... I regret you
perceive me that way, forgetting that I won't be changing a
thing...

 >You have created your own duality that all mass
 >media are controlled together and you have kicked them all over
 >to the dark side of the fence. On the white side of the fence
 >are you and the alternative media to set the people and the
 >planet free.

You're making the call...

 >
 >Alf, this is the information age,

That's correct, Mr. Goldstein, and I suggest you sift yours a
little less personally and a little more personably.

 >A great many prople are on the
 >internet can access just about any point of view on just about
 >every subject, except government secrets. Thousands of book
 >titles of all kinds are in print. A lot of people also look at
 >both mass media and alternative media then do something
 >miraculous, think for themselves and care for all else.

That _was_ lovely. I'm relieved to discover we have so many
people out there thinking for themselves. Really, it's a load
off my mind.

 >
 >Just who are these hijackers of our society, in your opinon?

Or... we could just leave that alone, a moment, to examine your
implied contention that our society is not being hijacked, is on
an upward path, healthy, and not needing our worried concern.
_Have_ you been paying attention to current events?

But, who are *they*? I answered that in another thread, but
*they* are... " ...the privileged arbitrary, the unelected, and
far too many of the elected. "They," are those that have, and
having had, would keep on having despite an aggregate detriment
to the common good of "have nots." "They," are in possession of
information that would credit or be to the advantage of anyone
who knew, specifically outlining why most know not. "They" are
the secret keepers. "They" are the jealous manipulators of the
mainstream, the covetous who encourage bland employees while
they discourage critical thinkers. "They" are the ones with
hidden agendas, duplicitous plans, and secret programs. "They"
are the few willing to profit at the expense of the many. "They"
are above the law, outside reasonable ethics, and hold the many
beneath their privileged contempt...

Everyone knows what is meant by "they"; it requires no citation.
"They" are the ones having none of the concern for you that
"they" would _demand_ of you for them. That's the hijacker, in a
nutshell.

 >I never met John Ford. I just read a lot of things those years
 >and saw some video, etc. My question to you is: Why do the
 >courts and a lot of people in the UFO field think he has a
 >mental problem?

He very likely does... now! So would you! The point is that he
was likely not crazy... then! Ford was torpedoed, Mr. Goldstein,
for busily investigating a powerful man (subsequently a
convicted criminal) who could bear NO investigation because of
that criminal activity, and who I'd wager did not spend _one_
freaking day in jail for _his_ crimes... Your obvious
appreciation of "courts" and the veracity of the members of
political machines is abundantly descriptive of the naivet=E9 I
spoke about earlier...

 >Does that add strong fuel to your fire against
 >those "self serving entities" who have manipulated the people
 >through the mass media?

If I understand the question? In a word, yes.

 >
 >Alf, maybe some people are gullible simply because they have not
 >learned to think the things through on a deeper level before
 >they are hooked.

I'd say likely. But then most people aren't getting solid
information up front to preclude that gullibility. And did you
know that the word "gullible" was not in the dictionary?

 >People who prey on gullible people have a well
 >developed appeal to emotions and fears that can be overpowering
 >to people who don't have a strong sense of self.

The fear, Mr. Goldstein, has to be there first. Seeds don't
sprout in infertile soil.

 >They are
 >looking for something and the emotional pull blots out reason,
 >so now they feel they belong, empowered members of something
 >that helps with their fears.

Where does the fear come from, Mr. Goldstein? The Mr. Coopers of
the world aren't making it up... they only make use of it, when
it is there... why is it there?

 >They are too gullible to see it is
 >a foolish path, one that usually ends up with its members having
 >personally suffered from its demands.

Nonsense, it works for them or they wouldn't be involved. I
don't think you're seeing the wide view on this, I think that
you're occluded with personal issues, and I don't think that you
are being sufficiently fair with me. Maybe I'm up your nose so
far you can feel little knees on your top lip, but I don't think
it requires your insult, and I don't think it justifies your
sneer. Still cracked up?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                     Secrecy News -- 11/16/01 (Addendum)

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:38:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:34:25 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/16/01 (Addendum)


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 16, 2001 -- addendum


**   A REPLY FROM THE STIMSON CENTER


A REPLY FROM THE STIMSON CENTER

The November 13 issue of Secrecy News reported on testimony by
Amy E. Smithson of the Henry L. Stimson Center in which she
called upon the government to take legal steps to remove certain
environmental data from non-governmental web sites, if those web
sites declined to remove such data themselves.

Secrecy News unfairly portrayed her position, Dr. Smithson said
in a written reply today.

"As a closer reading of my testimony reveals, I thoroughly
respect and advocate the public's right to know of the
industrial dangers in their communities," she wrote.

"The issue is not IF this information should be accessible, but
HOW easily people should be able to access it.  My testimony
never advocated general censorship or the blanket withholding of
this information, only a more careful and considered approach to
its distribution."

See the full text of Dr. Smithson's reply here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/smithson.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org>with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                     Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:49:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:49:32 -0500
Subject: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery

http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=775291

Mt. Adams UFOs are Still a Mystery


PORTLAND (KPTV) -- The Pacific Northwest is no stranger to the
UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount Adams, in south central
Washington, has been a hub for UFO activity.

Mount Adams is home to what some call UFOs and others call
naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of people
have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives near the
mountain even claims to have contact with the extraterrestrial
beings who are behind the lights.

When James Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake,
Washington, he had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO
flight path. He and hundreds of other who frequent his 70 acre
property near the mountain believe the lights are UFO's.
Gilliland has recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange
lights.

Gilliland also claims he has had direct contact with the
inter-dimensional spiritual beings who control what he calls
light ships.

"These are very advanced beings technologically, spiritually we
have to rise to the occasion," said Gilliland.

Others say the strange lights are just natural occurring
nocturnal geo-thermal lights or satellites. OMSI planetarian
director Jim Todd, says the images on James Gilliland's video
look like ordinary satellites to him.

"I can understand their excitement cause they see something
moving across the stars. I've seen a lot of satellites space
station shuttle and their fun to watch they really are," said
Todd.

More than 30 years ago, scientists from around the country began
documenting the strange light phenomenon. In 1972, "The
Investigation of Nocturnal Light Phenomena at Toppensh,
Washington" was released.

The report outlines several encounters, such as the following:
"The light moved so fast it gave the impression of a streak. It
would appear stationary for a moment and then almost
instantaneously appear some distance away."

Now, over thirty years later, there are still no clear answers
to the mysterious lights, but Gilliland does say the aliens have
a message for all of humanity.

"We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our environment
and raise up and lead a spiritual way of life."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

               Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 06:27:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:06:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hatch


 >Source: Oregons 12TV

 >http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=775291

 >Mt. Adams UFOs are Still a Mystery

 >PORTLAND (KPTV) -- The Pacific Northwest is no stranger to the
 >UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount Adams, in south central
 >Washington, has been a hub for UFO activity.

 >Mount Adams is home to what some call UFOs and others call
 >naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of people
 >have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives near the
 >mountain even claims to have contact with the extraterrestrial
 >beings who are behind the lights.

 >When James Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake,
 >Washington, he had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO
 >flight path. He and hundreds of other who frequent his 70 acre
 >property near the mountain believe the lights are UFO's.
 >Gilliland has recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange
 >lights.

<snip]>

Disgusting.


- Larry Hatch






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:03:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:08:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery
 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:49:32 -0500

 >Source: Oregons 12TV

 >http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=775291

 >Mt. Adams UFOs are Still a Mystery

 >PORTLAND (KPTV) -- The Pacific Northwest is no stranger to the
 >UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount Adams, in south central
 >Washington, has been a hub for UFO activity.

 >Mount Adams is home to what some call UFOs and others call
 >naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of people
 >have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives near the
 >mountain even claims to have contact with the extraterrestrial
 >beings who are behind the lights.

 >When James Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake,
 >Washington, he had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO
 >flight path. He and hundreds of other who frequent his 70 acre
 >property near the mountain believe the lights are UFO's.
 >Gilliland has recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange
 >lights.
 >Gilliland also claims he has had direct contact with the
 >inter-dimensional spiritual beings who control what he calls
 >light ships.

 >"These are very advanced beings technologically, spiritually we
 >have to rise to the occasion," said Gilliland.

 >Others say the strange lights are just natural occurring
 >nocturnal geo-thermal lights or satellites. OMSI planetarian
 >director Jim Todd, says the images on James Gilliland's video
 >look like ordinary satellites to him.

 >"I can understand their excitement cause they see something
 >moving across the stars. I've seen a lot of satellites space
 >station shuttle and their fun to watch they really are," said
 >Todd.

 >More than 30 years ago, scientists from around the country began
 >documenting the strange light phenomenon. In 1972, "The
 >Investigation of Nocturnal Light Phenomena at Toppensh,
 >Washington" was released.

 >The report outlines several encounters, such as the following:
 >"The light moved so fast it gave the impression of a streak. It
 >would appear stationary for a moment and then almost
 >instantaneously appear some distance away."

 >Now, over thirty years later, there are still no clear answers
 >to the mysterious lights, but Gilliland does say the aliens have
 >a message for all of humanity.

 >"We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our environment
 >and raise up and lead a spiritual way of life."

Well, well! A 100% throwback, gen-u-wine contactee, as full of
B.S. as his predecessors were. "Inter-dimensional spiritual
beings" eh? All noble and pure and such-like. How charming.

- Dick







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

               Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:09:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:13:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Velez


 >From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:33:50 EST
 >Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:00:31 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed'

 >>>From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:58:10 EST
 >>>Subject: Bassett on 'Strange Days... Indeed' [was: William Cooper
Killed...]
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
 >>>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:53:47 -0500
 >>>>Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:09 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid - Velez

 >>>>>From: Richard Hall hallrichard99@hotmail.com
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>>Subject: Re: William Cooper Killed In SWAT Raid
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:18:30 +0000

 >>>>Hi Dick,

 >>>>Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen much of you on the List
 >>>>lately.

 >>>>I hope you don't mind if I take this off on a non-William Cooper
 >>>>tangent, but you said something that started me thinking. You
 >>>>wrote:

 >>>>>Antidote?

 >>>>>Clear thinking, careful data analysis, exposure of fraud and
 >>>>>antisocial/paranoid behavior in individuals.

 >>>>You also mentioned CSETI which made me think of Steve Bassett
 >>>>and what he had to say Saturday night on 'Strange Days...
 >>>>Indeed'.

 >>>>He talked about George Bush reversing an order to make public
 >>>>all presidential documents after a twelve year period. Reagan
 >>>>administration documents/papers were due to be made public and
 >>>>Dubya just countermanded the order to release with a
 >>>>Presidential Executive Order.

 >>>>Now here's the kicker;

 >>>>Bassett (publicly) attributes Dubya's action as an act meant to
 >>>>contain any information relating to UFOs. He offered no hard
 >>>>evidence that there is even reason to suspect such a thing, much
 >>>>less to imply that there is any truth or validity to it. It
 >>>>makes much more sense that what Dubya is really trying to hide
 >>>>is anything that implicates his father in the Iran-Contra
 >>>>scandal. Never forget that George senior was the head of the CIA
 >>>>at one time and that the drugs for dollars scam could only have
 >>>>been executed by a combination of CIA and military
 >>>>operatives/operations.

 >>Hi Stephen,

 >>You wrote:

 >>>[SB] Since 'Strange Days...Indeed' is archived, this can be
 >>>checked, but I did not state categorically that Bush moved to
 >>>block the Reagan papers for UFO reasons (EBK can perhaps verify
 >>>this). Rather, I raised this possibility.

 >>When you go back and review your own statements, listen
 >>carefully to the parts where you declare that, "It is believed"
 >>and "It is strongly believed" in reference to the "reason" for
 >>George Bush's action. You may not have "stated categorically"
 >>that hiding UFO information was the main reason for the
 >>Executive Order but you sure were 'selling it' pretty hard. I'm
 >>a born and raised New Yorker Stephen, I know a 'sucker pitch'
 >>when I hear one. I told someone else here recently that, "you
 >>can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool
 >>Mom!" ;) (Said Spanky to Alfalfa)

 >>>Why? More than a few journalists have jumped on this issue and are
 >>>generally perplexed why Bush would do this.

 >>Of course journalists have "jumped" on this issue. It represents
 >>an act of willful suppression on the Presidential level. Bush
 >>has taken it upon himself to wipe away with the stroke of a pen,
 >>the people's right to know, and to access presidential documents
 >>of historical importance. Dubya "probably" did it to protect his
 >>old man from being tied directly to the Iran-Contra scandal. (As
 >>Reagan's VP) And not as you suggest/sell that it has _anything_
 >>(at all) to do with UFOs.

 >>Aside from yourself Stephen, how many of these interested
 >>journalists that you speak of are putting forth the 'theory'
 >>that Bush's questionable act had anything at all to do with
 >>UFOs?

 >>"Where" did _you_ get such a notion?

 >>Do you have any documentary or other substantial evidence that
 >>clearly shows a connection between Bush's presidential order and
 >>repression of UFO information? Or are you the only one spreading
 >>this peanut butter around?

 >>Or is it (as I suspect) your own personal 'interpretation'? An
 >>interpretation that maybe hopes to take advantage of all the
 >>current media interest in the topic? An act of opportunism as
 >>opposed to an act of contribution towards advancing the "cause"
 >>of UFO disclosure. I gotta tell you Stephen, from the side-lines
 >>it _screams_ opportunistic motives.

 >>So, just what kind of 'attention' do you hope to get by peddling
 >>such a far out and completely unsubstantiated (by you) theory?

 >>How does your interjecting the 'UFO question', (your own
 >>personal and unfounded speculations) into an issue that
 >>threatens yet another one of our freedoms, (our right to access
 >>the documentation associated with the administrations of our
 >>elected officials) help to either; preserve our freedoms; or
 >>advance the pawn on the UFO disclosure issue? Don't you have
 >>better things to do (like compile and submit documentary
 >>evidence to congressmen) as opposed to 'spinning yarns'?

 >>It seems to me Stephen (as an observer) your artificial
 >>"grafting" of the UFO question (without any documentation or
 >>substantive proof or testimony) onto the the very important
 >>issue of Bush's presumptive executive order does not help the
 >>cause of those fighting to maintain our freedoms, or of the UFO
 >>community in any positive fashion.

 >>To the contrary:

 >>You 'sound like' any other conspiracy advocate that sees a
 >>'spook' in every closet. That is, unless you can substantiate
 >>that there is in fact a connection. You just haven't offered
 >>anything in the way of proof that would justify your outrageous
 >>'theory'. Show me whatever it is that convinced you that there
 >>is a connection and I'll help you spread the word. If not, you
 >>have no business airing such theories in public - as the one and
 >>only 'UFO lobbyist'. As 'yourself' you can express any theory
 >>you wish.

 >>That's what I meant when I said that you are making us _all_
 >>look like a bunch of uncritical, thoughtless conspiracy nuts.
 >>You have set yourself up as the 'UFO Lobbyist' in Washington. If
 >>you're going to presume to represent the interests of the UFO
 >>community, then you really ought to take into consideration how
 >>your actions and proclamations reflect on the rest of us. At
 >>least in the eyes of those people you speak to as; the 'UFO
 >>Lobbyist'.
 >
 >>Personally I'm not terribly choked up about your introduction of
 >>this red-herring issue into something with as much historical
 >>significance as this. I would really like to hear some
 >>_specific_ answers to the questions I have raised, Stephen. I
 >>didn't vote for you, or hire you. If you're going to 'assume' to
 >>represent me - as a member of the UFO community - then you need
 >>to answer to me and 'The People'. You need to be more than a 'PR
 >>Man' for the likes of Dr. Greer - the videotape salesman.

 >>>There is enormous political
 >>>risk in trying to overrule an act of Congress by Presidential
 >>>decree. The 1978 Presidential Records Act was specifically
 >>>passed because of the actions of the Nixon administration toward
 >>>presidential papers and communications. Nixon's tenure was one
 >>>giant cover-up, which as we are all coming to learn, sat on top
 >>>of a host of other cover-ups, ad infinitum. The people were fed
 >>>up.

 >>>It would be tempting to assume that Bush's decree, which was
 >>>signed after 911, was a national security matter related to the
 >>>prosecution of the "war on terrorism." But Bush began blocking
 >>>the release of these papers as early as January of this year.
 >>>Why? If, as some journalists have suggested, it was to protect
 >>>his appointees from the Reagan administration with ties to his
 >>>father, and looking ahead to 2005 when his father's papers also
 >>>come under the aegis of the National Archivist, then he would be
 >>>creating a political disaster, with the prospect of embarrassing
 >>>information coming out down the line about Cheney, Powell,
 >>>Rumsfeld, Armitage, Negroponte, Abrams, Reich - all suppressed
 >>>by a sitting President for purely political, party-serving,
 >>>self-serving, staff-serving reasons by OVERRULING CONGRESS.
 >>>This could destroy the Republican Party for years.

 >>So what motivated you to attach/link the UFO question to all of
 >>this?

 >>>Why on earth would a President who came to office in the closest
 >>>election in U.S. history, not even winning the popular vote,
 >>>move immediately to take such a political risk? Well, it is
 >>>worth noting that:

 >>>If Reagan was briefed on the UFO/ET matter, regardless of the
 >>>extent, if George H. W. Bush was also briefed and was in fact
 >>>slated to be the "disclosure president," then the release of
 >>>such papers would compromise the disclosure timeline of the
 >>>sitting president. And whatever that timeline was, the 911
 >>>calamity could only have set it back, thus making the delay of
 >>>the release of these presidential papers more essential, and
 >>>thus the four page decree.

 >>>Why raise the point publicly? Easy. The journalists trying to
 >>>understand Bush's actions are in no way considering the UFO/ET
 >>>factor because it is not permitted or they don't know better.
 >>>Raising the matter publicly is one way to prod these journalist
 >>>to think outside the box of their "safe" protocols.

 >>And without any evidence or proof that there is _any_ connection
 >>at all, you make the whole of the UFO community look like a
 >>bunch of yeowling uncritical boobs. My word Stephen, can't you
 >>see that?

 >>I wrote:

 >>>>Yet Steve Bassett, the one and only UFO lobbyist in Washington
 >>>>is running around in public trying to make it sound as if Bush's
 >>>>executive order has to do with UFO disclosure. A non-issue that
 >>>>only serves to act as dis-information. Not to mention making
 >>>>himself and those who support his beliefs on the existence of
 >>>>UFOs look like a bunch of un-critical conspiracy nuts.

 >>>>Other than nebulous remarks like "it is believed" that Bush is
 >>>>trying to cover up UFO information with his executive order, he
 >>>>never tells us "who" it is that "believes" what he claims, nor
 >>>>does he offer _any_ documentation or proof that UFOs have
 >>>>anything at all to do with President Bush's recent actions.

 >>>>I just can't see how it 'helps' our cause to have a lobbyist
 >>>>running around 'making up' what amounts to non-issues. How does
 >>>>that help us?

 >>>>We need to think very carefully about who and what we support
 >>>>before we actually go ahead and support it/them. If people don't
 >>>>become more thoughtful and critical in their thinking we're all
 >>>>doomed to ride this ufological merry-go-round that we've been on
 >>>>for over 50 years. Folks need to sober up, have a good look
 >>>>around at what's what, and then take some personal
 >>>>responsibility to correct the things that are wrong, or
 >>>>unproductive. If not, ufology will remain the butt of jokes and
 >>>>ridicule and _deservedly_ so.

 >>>>Strictly my opinion.

 >>Stephen responds:

 >>>John's remaining comments are his opinion. I will respond to
 >>>only one part. "Dis-information" is a loaded word in the world
 >>>of UFO/ET research/activism.

 >>What do you call it when someone, anyone, comes along and
 >>arbitrarily attaches a distracting and unrelated issue/set of
 >>theories onto an issue that is of tremendous and vital
 >>importance to _all_ Americans? Someone who introduces un-related
 >>information at a time when people are gathering the basic info
 >>they will need to base their own conclusions and opinions on.
 >>Someone who by their interjection of flotsam and jetsam only
 >>serves to confuse an already complicated issue even more.

 >>I call stuff like that "Dis-information" Stephen. What do you
 >>call it?

 >>>I made a decision to devote the
 >>>remainder of my life to cutting through 50 years of
 >>>dis-information and mis-infomation by our own government on a
 >>>range of issues directly and indirectly related to UFO/ET
 >>>phenomena, as well as helping others with the same goals.

 >>Yes, _you_ decided. Nobody elected you to represent the UFO
 >>community before our elected officials. Which gives me the right
 >>- as someone who is a part of the community you assume to rep
 >>for - to asses your actions/activities in relation to the UFO
 >>question.

 >>>Anyone who believes I am spreading "dis-information" is invited
 >>>to debate this publicly in any reasonable forum straight up.
 >>>Under such circumstances it can be readily ascertained who is
 >>>and who is not capable of "critical thinking".

 >>The reason for my comments, in the first place, has to do with
 >>your public display of uncritical thinking in regard to the
 >>unfounded nonsense _you_alone_ are spreading about some
 >>connection between UFO disclosure and Dubya's recent actions.

 >>Unless you have something to back it up, you really shouldn't be
 >>out there espousing such off the wall theories. You make us all
 >>look bad in the eyes of those we seek to secure open public
 >>hearings from.

 >>Concerned ufologist,

 >>John Velez

Hello Stephen,

You responded:

 >While the above comments by John contain enough bait to fill a
 >freezer full of trout, my intentions regarding this issue were
 >clearly stated in my previous post.

You can opine about my comments all you wish, that is your
prerogative. However, I would have appreciated some answers to
some of the  valid questions I asked. In lieu of the following I
do understand why you didn't.

 >However, intentions don't always match up with execution. I
 >checked in with EBK and learned that past Strange Days.....
 >Indeed programs are not yet (but soon) available in archive. So
 >I am not able to review that program at this time. However, it
 >was EBK's sense that I did, in fact, go beyond "raising the
 >possibility" of a UFO/ET aspect to Bush's presidential records
 >maneuver to "selling" the idea as "my explanation" for these
 >actions. That's not appropriate.

Calling it a 'sales pitch' is not such a stretch Stephen. I'm
sure that once you are able to review the program you'll agree
that I didn't make any quantum leaps characterizing your
presentation as a "hard sell."

 >Perhaps, my frustration at seeing the political efforts toward
 >disclosure significantly set back by 9-11, was showing. I shall
 >endeavor to be more careful.

Completely understandable Stephen. I can empathize with your
feelings. Don't ever take any of my critiques personally. I'm
just 'calling em as I see em' and there is never anything
'personal' in that. My genuine interest and concern for how this
UFO issue is handled is rooted in a very deep personal
involvement with the subject, and one that I care very much
about.

When it comes to "ufology" if it isn't honest, straightforward
and "the best quality" - I'm on it like ugly on an ape. No
matter 'who' is putting it out. Again, nothing at all personal.
I'm always careful to be very specific about what I say and what
I mean. How it gets interpreted by others is beyond my control.


Regards,

John Velez







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:03:01 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:16:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Revelation - Bruni


Since my 16 November post on UpDates, I have received some
private e-mails. One List member asked me, if, in the light of
new information, my publishers had decided to omit the a section
that I had planned to include on the lighthouse theory in my
paperback, You Can't Tell The People. If so, would I be prepared
to post it on Updates.

The truth is, that I personally decided to exclude it because
the new information, especially that from Halt and one of the
primary witnesses, seemed to demolish the theory that it could
have been a lightship, as Robert McLean now thinks.

The fact is, that Halt admitted that the red light was in the
forest and when it stopped in front of him at eye level, it was
a solid object. I cannot imagine that a lighthouse or a lightship
for that matter, would able to fly through the sky, move in and
out of the trees and hover at about five foot. Unless of course,
Dr Who had anything to with it :-)

I am posting the piece that was intended for the paperback, here
on Updates. This is based on Robert McLean's research into the
lighthouse/lightship theory. I respect Robert's research but if
you have read the paperback update, you will see why I made this
decision. Apart from Halt's latest, there are so many other
things to consider, such as the events that happened 100 years
ago. Even if the lighthouse was around at that time, which I
have not yet checked, I don't think the lightships were in
operation. The other factor is that Robert has not proved
anything, and for me, I'd rather go with first hand witness
testimony and facts, such as the recently discovered USAF
photographs of the landing site which feature ground
indentations exactly like those mentioned in Halt's tape
recording of the event. And let us not forget the famous memo,
which describes one of the objects.

We simply must move on with the case and the sceptics should
accept that the lighthouse and lightships were not responsible.
After all, there is so much else to take in. One cannot just
take a fraction of this huge case and spend a lifetime trying to
make things fit into a theory. You must take the whole case and
try to understand what the UFOs were and where they came from.
That is what we need to understand.

Here then is the piece that was intended for the paperback.

----------------------------------

It was not my intention to give more space to the tired
lighthouse theory, especially as I have dedicated an entire
chapter to addressing this and other sceptical claims. However,
several sceptics have accused me of not dealing with these
theories in detail, but it is worth mentioning that these same
people have totally ignored the new evidence, which proves that
the lighthouse was of no significance. But not to further
disappoint those who favour the lighthouse theory, I consulted
local researcher Robert McLean, who is himself somewhat of a
sceptic. McLean does not believe it was a real UFO encounter and
argues that the lighthouse was not the only factor, but that
other terrestrial lights may have been partially involved. Just
the same, he is sceptical of the traditional lighthouse theory
and is of the opinion that the latter does not stand up to
careful analysis.

As we know, the traditional sceptical theory is that Lieutenant
Colonel Halt mistook the beam of the Orfordness lighthouse for a
UFO, and followed it into the farmer's field where it can be
seen to line up with the Boast house. According to McLean, the
line of sight to the lighthouse, using a compass for
measurement, would have been about 98 degrees. However, Halt's
audio recording of the event clearly reveals that the light the
patrol initially followed was about 110 or 120 degrees on the
compass, and as such, the debate continues whether or not there
was a 12 or 22 degree measurement error. McLean points out that
a clue to the identity of this light is given by Halt on his
tape, that they "made sighting again at about 110 degrees" when
in the "second farmer's field". When Brenda Butler discussed the
incident with Halt in 1983 he apparently mentioned that during
their walk they had reached a hill where they could see a river
below. Brenda thinks the location is probably that of Burrow
Hill, which is about 2.5 km east of the landing sites. McLean
states that the lighthouse cannot be seen from the top of Burrow
Hill because trees and farm buildings block the view. But he
explains that there is an unobstructed line of sight at about
115 degrees on the compass to where the Shipwash lightship was
situated at the time of the incident. This was taken out of
service on 25 October 1993. Charles Halt has confirmed that the
patrol recognised the lighthouse, which he has described as a
white light that was 30 to 35 degrees off to the right of the
UFO. But McLean is of the opinion that Halt was referring to the
beam of the Shipwash lightship. He has it in writing from
Trinity House that the beam was indeed white and was not blanked
off at any point, but was an "all around" light.

However, the implication of this, according to McLean, is that
the light initially seen in the forest was also that of the
Shipwash lightship, or sceptically, the light from Orfordness
lighthouse, and that the UFO appeared off to the left shortly
afterwards. He refers to a section on the tape where Master
Sergeant Ball says "at about 11 o'clock" and "Look to the left."
Followed by Sergeant Nevilles "There's two lights. One light to
the right and one light to the left." McLean points out that the
flash sequence of the Shipwash lightship, matches the interval
of the light initially seen just as well as the regular
five-second pattern of Orfordness lighthouse. Sceptic Steuart
Campbell was the first to argue the lightship theory after
listening to Halt's recording of the incident in the 1980s. He
was also of the opinion that the flashes of the UFO were
consistent with the Shipwash lightship. But McLean is certain
that there was no direct view of the Shipwash lightship from the
alleged landing sites because of intervening trees in Oak Wood.
Only the light from Orfordness lighthouse could have been
visible, however this disappears from view at a point of 126 m
from the eastern edge of Rendlesham Forest. This in turn begs
the question of what happened during the subsequent 2.4 km on
the way to Burrow Hil,l when no lighthouse or lightship could
have been visible. Assuming this was the route taken, Colonel
Halt's patrol would have needed to cross, or find ways around,
up to ten drainage ditches on their way to Burrow Hill and not
just the one ditch that he has often mentioned. It is worth
pointing out that I personally came across the ditch Halt refers
to, in fact I almost fell into it, and as far as I am aware, it
is not in the position recognised by Robert McLean.

As a result of these difficulties McLean questions whether the
location of the landing sites have been correctly identified. He
suggests that if Burrow Hill were the location of the second
farmer's field, then Colonel Halt's patrol would have seen the
light from yet another lightship 26.5 km distant, with the odd
name of Sunk. The Sunk lightship is still visible today from
Burrow Hill, and would have been seen in 1980 at a magnetic
heading of about 171 degrees. McLean suggests that this
lightship may have been the source of the "strobe-like flashes"
mentioned by Halt. I commend McLean's research and there is no
doubt that he has done an excellent job of mapping and measuring
the area but like Charles Halt and indeed all the witnesses, I
have to argue that there is far more to this case that flashing
lights from a nearby lighthouse or lightships.

End

------------------

For those of you who have contacted me to inform me that my
paperback is not yet available with www.netstoreusa.com that's
because it was only published in the UK last week. Please try
www.amazon.co.uk who will post overseas.


Thank you

Georgina Bruni







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

              Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:44:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:24:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery
 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:03:14 +0000

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery
 >>Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:49:32 -0500

 >>Source: Oregons 12TV

 >>http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=3D775291

 >>Mt. Adams UFOs are Still a Mystery

<snip>

 >>Now, over thirty years later, there are still no clear answers
 >>to the mysterious lights, but Gilliland does say the aliens have
 >>a message for all of humanity.

 >>"We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our environment
 >>and raise up and lead a spiritual way of life."

 >Well, well! A 100% throwback, gen-u-wine contactee, as full of
 >B.S. as his predecessors were. "Inter-dimensional spiritual
 >beings" eh? All noble and pure and such-like. How charming.

 >- Dick

Yeah, it's amazing what sprouts up and grows in the soils of a
suspiciously indifferent mainstream 'science' as far from _its_
basic tenets as any full blown aggregate net loony... but at
least the net loony (...a regrettable title _I've_ recently
'earned') is _trying_ to go where the evidence leads him. This
is forgetting, for that moment of uncomfortable but necessary
conscience, that we _do_ need to clean up our consciousness,
clean up our environment, and then be graced with the time to
raise up to do... something!

I've always thought that colonizing the asteroid belt was a
pretty good idea. It'd get all these eggs out of one basket,
for sure. And I've always been enamored with the idea of the
21st century being able to fly back down to me in the event of
some cataclysmic, Velikovski-like catastrophe...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

                         The Rendlesham Revelation!

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:54:34 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:31:07 -0500
Subject: The Rendlesham Revelation!


STATEMENT

'BUFOSC's Tim Matthews announced today at an event held in
Runcorn, Cheshire, that he had solid information that a serious
leak of radioactive material had occurred at the Sizewell A
nuclear power station, situated on the coast a short distance
from RAF Woodbridge-Bentwaters, during the Christmas period in
December 1980.

He reported that his information came from a credible source, a
former manager within the nuclear industry, and from people
within the anti-nuclear movement. "Leaks from Sizewell A and
similar facilities were well known at the time," he said, "and
continue today. the late 1970s/early 1980s have been described
to me as "dark times" for the British nuclear industry."

Matthews said that he was convinced that many of the stories
regarding aliens and crashed craft that emerged in East Anglia
in January 1980, in some cases before the Halt Memorandum was
written, were part of a deliberate smokescreen put in place by
elements associated with both the nuclear industry (security)
and the MOD. Matthews particularly concentrated upon stories
generated by a "mystery" character, Steve Roberts, who contacted
Rendlesham researchers Dot Street and Brenda Butler at the time
and was the first to spread what proved to be disinformation of
the worst sort.

Tim also called into question the role of Jenny Randles who, it
emerged, wrote letters to the MOD in 1983 and 1984, now in his
possession, offering to assist the MOD in terms of its "public
relations position", to help educate the public that there was
"no UFO cover up" and much, much more besides. Her private
letters to the MOD and public statements were, he said,
seriously at odds with each other. He said he intended to
publish the Randles letters, in their entirety, at some point
next week.

Eric Morris and Carolyn Buckley had, it emerged, agreed to
reopen their investigation into Rendlesham after speaking to a
number of witnesses to events in December 1980 featured in
contemporary newspaper reports. Their testimony had not been
included in later magazine articles and books on the incident.
Perhaps new information might move the overall investigation
forward?

Matthews also noted the interesting parallels and timing of the
operations of the US Air Force Office of Special Investigations
(AFOSI) in North America and the UK between 1980-1983. he said,
"It is worth pointing out that, at the same time, Master
Sergeant Richard Doty was spreading stories of aliens and crash
retrievals around the US UFO research community. Why not do the
same thing in Britain? According to Georgina Bruni, AFOSI had
several operatives close to the Rendlesham Incident."

In January 1981, the exact same time the Halt Memorandum was
written and Steve Roberts first came forward, a Public Enquiry,
subsequently chaired by Sir Frank Layfield, into the
construction of a second, controversial, nuclear plant at
Sizewell (Sizewell B) was  announced. At the most crucial time
of the enquiry, held between 1983 and 1985, the massively
exaggerated mass media reporting of the supposed "alien crash
landing and UFO retrieval" began in earnest. October 2nd, 1983,
saw the first report in the News of the World newspaper which,
according to staff at the MOD, "stirred up a hornet's nest" and
which, Matthews added, possibly directed people away from the
truth behind the events of December 1980...

In another coincidence, a "whistleblower" and peace activist,
Hilda Murrell, said to have vital information on actual and
potential leaks from UK nuclear facilities, and who had written
a damning report on the subject that later vanished, died under
mysterious circumstances in March 1984.

One writer described the Murrell situation as follows: "At the
time she died, Hilda Murrell was writing a paper to present at
the Sizewell [B] Enquiry. To do this, she had been in contact
with other people in CND and the anti-nuclear movement. She had
been helped by Don Arnott, an anti-nuclear campaigner living in
Wales. Arnott believes he was under surveillance and harassment
by the security forces. Most damning here is the anxious phone
call Hilda Murrell made just a few weeks before her death, to
her friends, Gerard and Fern Morgan-Grenville, to tell them she
believed her own life to be in danger."

The truth, said Matthews, was that between 1980-1983 Cold War
paranoia, the stationing of Cruise missiles at UK bases and the
failings of the nuclear industry were all political hot
potatoes. He said that the intelligence services were working
overtime to keep a lid on possible leaks of information and on
the situation in general. Perhaps the hapless UFO community
might be a useful target for disinformation?

Tim added that an unusual, albeit genuine looking "hoax"
document, revealing information on a claimed "contact" scenario
involving alien beings "of 1 1/2 metres in height" and US Air
Force personnel, written on headed Ministry of Defence
notepaper, had made its way into the 150 page Rendlesham File
recently released to BUFOSC and others. The MOD, it emerged,
"had no idea" where the document came from, despite the fact
that it seems to have been internally generated. Was this
document used to mislead UFO researchers back in the early 1980s
or was the information contained therein a template for
subsequent disinformation? It would seem so...

All in all, there is much to research and many new leads to
follow. Tim Matthews is not claiming to have anything like all
the answers but this new information requires us to reconsider
the events of December 1980.'

ENDS






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

                Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:57:51 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:33:31 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird

The Cydonian Imperative
11-18-01

Another Weird Crater...

by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

page 24

[image]

The image above shows what appears to be a crater surrounded by
concentric rings, perhaps caused by the shock of the impact. But
the nature of the impacting object - assuming this is a meteoric
crater - is mysterious. The caldera is interestingly "leveled,"
much like a large-scale mining operation on Earth. The center of
the formation consists of bright, rectilinear furrows, and the
right "wall" of the crater appears unnaturally ruler-straight.
One does not typically expect craters to exhibit "straightness."
Although Mars' erosion can certainly produce interesting effects
that suggest artificial construction, the crater above (looking
somewhat like a "bootprint") seems well-preserved. That the
narrow concentric rings are visible at all implies that this
crater appears much as it did when it was formed. That is, of
course, assuming it's a crater...

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

end








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

             Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:08:16 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:35:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery - Mortellaro



 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery
 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:03:14 +0000


 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Mt. Adams UFOs Are Still A Mystery
 >>Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:49:32 -0500

 >>Source: Oregons 12TV

 >>http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=775291

 >>Mt. Adams UFOs are Still a Mystery

 >>PORTLAND (KPTV) -- The Pacific Northwest is no stranger to the
 >>UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount Adams, in south central
 >>Washington, has been a hub for UFO activity.

 >>Mount Adams is home to what some call UFOs and others call
 >>naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of people
 >>have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives near the
 >>mountain even claims to have contact with the extraterrestrial
 >>beings who are behind the lights.

 >>When James Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake,
 >>Washington, he had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO
 >>flight path. He and hundreds of other who frequent his 70 acre
 >>property near the mountain believe the lights are UFO's.
 >>Gilliland has recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange
 >>lights.
 >>Gilliland also claims he has had direct contact with the
 >>inter-dimensional spiritual beings who control what he calls
 >>light ships.

 >>"These are very advanced beings technologically, spiritually we
 >>have to rise to the occasion," said Gilliland.

 >>Others say the strange lights are just natural occurring
 >>nocturnal geo-thermal lights or satellites. OMSI planetarian
 >>director Jim Todd, says the images on James Gilliland's video
 >>look like ordinary satellites to him.

 >>"I can understand their excitement cause they see something
 >>moving across the stars. I've seen a lot of satellites space
 >>station shuttle and their fun to watch they really are," said
 >>Todd.

 >>More than 30 years ago, scientists from around the country began
 >>documenting the strange light phenomenon. In 1972, "The
 >>Investigation of Nocturnal Light Phenomena at Toppensh,
 >>Washington" was released.

 >>The report outlines several encounters, such as the following:
 >>"The light moved so fast it gave the impression of a streak. It
 >>would appear stationary for a moment and then almost
 >>instantaneously appear some distance away."

 >>Now, over thirty years later, there are still no clear answers
 >>to the mysterious lights, but Gilliland does say the aliens have
 >>a message for all of humanity.

 >>"We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our environment
 >>and raise up and lead a spiritual way of life."

 >Well, well! A 100% throwback, gen-u-wine contactee, as full of
 >B.S. as his predecessors were. "Inter-dimensional spiritual
 >beings" eh? All noble and pure and such-like. How charming.

 >- Dick


Dear Richard Hall, List and Errol,

This just in. Film with sound, at eleven. From the Canal Street
UFoolOgical Society and etc...

NOCTURNAL LIGHTS LOCATED AND FOUND TO BE DUE TO NOCTURNAL
EMISSIONS

Dick, I hope you don't mind me calling you Dick, Dr. G. just
completed his night work up there in ... uh ... wherever, and
decided that you are quite incorrect as to the BS. Fortunately
however, the emissions did come from the same body, just from
the other end.

The nocturnal lights had been defined as swamp gas, then later
as pelicans. But now, after testing his new vines on the fresh
wine, Gesundt has determine beyond a shadow and further even
than that, that nocturnal emissions will look like nocturnal
lights if and ONLY if, fresh NightTime wine from Canal Street
vines are drunk before having them.

Then, they glow and flit here and there, back and to, and even
fro even. So the next time you see nocturnal lights, look for a
man (or lady) drinking themselves into a stupid. And make sure
that stuff is Gripple NightTime Fresh or it _MAY_ be a UFO.

Thanks, and happy notcurnal emissions to you all. I am sorry, I
meant to write "nocturnal," I just had a slug. Whew! It's damned
hot in here ain't it?

Morty for Docca Gesundt







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

                              The Devil You Say

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:44:13 +1100
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:39:29 -0500
Subject: The Devil You Say


Dear list and readers,

I think psychologist would agree with me when I say, the events
surrounding Cooper is enough for a case study into paranoia and
its effects on the human mind.

I can however sympathise somewhat with Cooper; it wasn't all
that long ago that the penny dropped for me in regards to the
UFO mystery or what I thought are the facts. I, back then wanted
to rush out and tell the whole world. There is even the odd UFO
researcher out there that can testify to this from the letters I
would send them. The poor Nexus magazine here in Australia bore
most of the brunt of my frustrations, small wonder they never
replied to any of them.

Why I thought this was so important to tell the world isn't
totally clear to this humble man, but it was the worst period of
my life. It was as if I would die by drowning if I didn't tell
the world or warn them. So I can see a little of Cooper's
frustration's in me or a little of the way I used to feel when I
am reading about Cooper.

So, in light of this recent demise and the fact that this will
probably not be the last, I am embarking on a mission to bring
to us researchers the kind of data we have be longing for. It is
an ambitious idea to say the least, so I expect much criticism
from all quarters, most notably NASA. At first I was thinking to
keep the whole idea to myself and try and get it off the ground,
but it is after all an idea to benefit all researchers, also
just in case it is a good idea and I am unable to see it
thought. Someone else just might.

My idea is a simple one, first a company is set up and shares
are sold at a set rate. Only 20% of the shares will be aloud
for-sale in any given country, this is to stop the data being
monopolised and not being shared around fairly. Once enough
shares are sold a second hand satellite in purchased from Russia
and refitted with as much state of the art equipment and cameras
as the budget will aloud.

Russia has a number of rockets sitting around just waiting to be
used. So lunching the satellite isn't as big a problem as one
might think. There are three good-sized radio telescopes here in
Australia and the Russia that are free for use, so collecting data
isn't a big problem. The satellite would not be aloud to orbit
Earth as NASA ECT would start screaming blue murder saying we
are spying on them.

But the satellite would be free to travel to the moon so we can
get a better idea about what is on the far side and then it can
travel off to Mars so people like Mac Tonnies and others could
finally get there teeth into so REAL DATA to analyse. Well, at
least they would be free to look to areas of greater interest
and study them more closely and freely.

There are lots of problems still to be sorted out before getting
something like this off the ground I know, but I think it is a
workable idea or at the very least heading in the right
direction. The governments of the world have been dictating what
we see and hear and what we are aloud to know for far to long,
they say this is done in/for our best interest? I think or I
know I'm not alone in disputing this. Maybe it is time to take
the bull by the horns and see what is what for ourselves.

Money could be recouped from selling our findings/imagines and
research information to TV net works ECT, which would raise the
value of the shares and give shareholders and/or the company a
return or more funds to build and send up better
satellites/equipment to greaten our research abilities.

I don't know how laws regarding companies work in other
countries, but here in Australia if it is a profit free company there
is very little tax payable, but seeing the cost of getting
something like this up and running, I don't think this will be a
path we need to look at. It would be some years before we
started showing a profit worth taxing.

I'm a little tried with a bad head cold at the moment so I am
not going into this with as much detail as I would like, though
I am very interested in hearing what others here think about
such an idea?

Also would we get away with it? I have visions of an unnamed
party taking over control of all satellite dishes here in Australia
and wherever else they can to stop us, which is why other
counties being involved would be helpful here. Russia is quite
open minded about things like this and would also welcome the
money I dare say. Plus their experience would be invaluable in
getting the satellite up and headed in the right direction.
Technology/Computers and programs are such now days that once it
was up we wouldn't have to much trouble in making sure it did
what it was programmed to do. Guess this is a case of technology
coming back to hunt those whom are trying to keep us clueless.

OK that is about all I can handle for the moment, it is a
beautiful day outside and I am stuck inside with a head-cold I
wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Enjoy the light show tonight everyone and watch out for falling
pieces LOL.

Cheers Tophar.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

                            Phillip Krapf on SDI

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:56:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:42:43 -0500
Subject: Phillip Krapf on SDI


Hello All,

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed hearing Mr. Phillip Krapf
on 'Strange Days... Indeed', Saturday night. We may not share
the same 'take' on the 'visitors' and their 'intentions' but he
came across as an open, straightforward and sincere person.

It takes courage for a person to come forward publicly and
deliver a report of their own experiences to their incredulous
peers. There is no one way to interpret the range of contact
experiences that are reported by so many individuals from all
over the globe. His account is an interesting addition to the
body of reports already in hand.

I also like that he expressed that he wasn't interested in
convincing anyone of anything. That he is only reporting what
has happened to him. Sharing the same feeling myself, I concur
and completely understand where he is coming from. I welcome the
addition of his voice to the "chorus" and I tip my hat to Mr.
Krapf for an open and well made presentation of his own
experiences.


Regards,

John Velez , Ambassador number 444  ;)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 18

                  Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 07:14:12 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:45:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews


There is a typo in once place in yesterday's statement that
should read, 'January 1981' not 1980. Sorry, that's what happens
when you write at 3am in the morning!


Tim M
for BUFOSC







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                     The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:24:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:24:27 -0500
Subject: The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes



Ouch!



_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:16:27 EST
From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@AOL.COM>
Subject: The Curse of Corso
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Dear Colleagues - On Nov. 8, I attempted to post the message
below on UFO UpDates. Since then, I've retransmitted it to Errol
twice - after adjusting line length to be sure it conformed with
his requirements. I've also politely queried Errol, asking why
he hadn't posted my message and what I might do to adjust it to
make it acceptable. I've had zero response from him and,
needless to say, my message remains unposted. Oddly, I receive
UpDates posts and have successfully posted other messages there,
but on this issue...

So now I'm posting it here and on a couple of other lists. My
intention was to get the facts out on a very sleazy situation. I
thought Errol to be committed to the free exchange of ideas on
UpDates. It appears I was wrong. So now there's a second sleazy
or at least highly questionable situation here. I urge all who
are interested/concerned, and regardless of their views on Corso
and Roswell in general, to re-post this anywhere they think it
will do some good and, if they're so inclinded, to ask Errol
what gives. Of course, he has the right to exclude what he
wishes from his list, but given what he HAS posted on this
matter, I find it more than a little out of line that he refuses
to let my message see the light of virtual day on UpDates - and
a little common courtesy wouldn't hurt, even if it's to tell me
to buzz off.

-- Cheers, KARL

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


Karl,

Along with all traffic between us over the years, your last
five, sit in your mailbox here.


Ktperehwon@aol.com 12:34 PM 11/01/2001 -0500
Re: UFO UpDate: Ambiguous Roswell Document?

Ktperehwon@aol.com 05:59 PM 11/02/2001 -0500
Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ambiguous Roswell Document? - Gehrman

Ktperehwon@aol.com 12:12 PM 11/03/2001 -0500
Re: UFO UpDate: Schulgen & Balsa Wood

Ktperehwon@aol.com 11:25 AM 11/04/2001 -0500
Re: UFO UpDate: Schulgen & Balsa Wood

Ktperehwon@aol.com 11:29 AM 11/07/2001 -0500
Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Schulgen & Balsa Wood - Maccabee

All posted to the List.


You may recall this:

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:18:27 EST
From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@AOL.COM>
Subject: UFO UpDates
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Can anyone out there enlighten me as to the current status of
UFO UpDates? In recent days I've zapped Erol a couple o e-grams
asking to be put back on the list, but have heard nothing back
and haven't had my mailbox flooded with UpDates postings.

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


As a result UFO UpDates flooded onto your screen again. Not
because your re-subscribe e-grams made it to this address.

I made a mental note then Karl, to key-you suggesting you might
be using an incorrect address. Time and good intentions.....

Its a mystery to me. Your mail is not, currently making it
through.

Indeed, a "highly questionable situation". Very public too.

The UFO UpDates List address is:

ufoupdates@home.com

ebk

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/



----------------------

Fellow List Fiends --

In my book Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe
and in a 1997 MUFON Journal review of the late Lt. Col. Philip
Corso's The Day After Roswell (TDAR), I exposed the fact that
Corso had pulled a bait and switch on Senator Thurmond (R-SC),
his former employer. Corso, who had worked for Thurmond for two
brief periods in the 1960s and '70s, had given the senator an
outline of his memoirs, grandly entitled I Walked With Giants
(My Career in Military Intelligence), asking him to pen a
foreword for the book. The senator did, and much to his chagrin,
his brief, plain-vanilla comments--laudatory of Corso but
containing nothing specific about the book itself--found their
way into the first printing of TDAR.

When I saw the senator's name and foreword in the bound galleys
of TDAR I was sent by Simon & Schuster, Corso's publisher, I
contacted his office. Thurmond's staff was stunned, and in short
order, the senator contacted S&S, told them what had happened,
and demanded that his foreword and name be removed from further
printings of the book and not be used in any way to further
promote it. The embarrassed publisher quickly complied.

The Oct.-Nov. 2001 UFO magazine (U.S.) carries a fatuous attempt
to rehabilitate Corso and, by implication, UFO's publisher
William J. Birnes, who coauthored TDAR with Corso: "Honor
Restored: The 'De-Pflocked' Facts About Philip Corso," by Don
Ecker, the 'zine's director of research. Ecker recently posted
the text of this gem on UpDates, conveniently not including the
illustrations. The most important of these is a Simon & Schuster
release form signed by Senator Thurmond, allegedly giving his
permission for Corso's publisher to use his foreword in TDAR.
The form as reproduced in UFO has the words "Roswell Book" typed
in the blank left in the boilerplate text of the form for a book
title, with the other blanks, for "undersigned" and "author,"
left, well, blank.

I made a copy of Ecker's piece available to Senator Thurmond's
chief of staff, and a few days ago, I received in return copies
of several very interesting items. One of these is the release
form in the senator's office file, on which ALL the blanks in
text are, well, blank. No "undersigned," no "author," but, most
important, no book title, not even the generic "Roswell Book."
This clearly is the same form reproduced in UFO, as the
senator's signature and date of signing match--but it is as it
was when the original left the senator's office, BEFORE someone
(gee, wonder who?) typed in "Roswell Book." Hmmm...

Along with this revealing document, I received the complete
outline for I Walked With Giants, wherein nary a word about UFOs
or Roswell (incident or town) is found. A perusal of this
outline and a reading of the senator's foreword leave no doubt
in any reasonable mind that the latter was intended for the
outlined proposed memoir, not the ufoological (NOT a typo) wet
dream to which it was appropriated. Other than the inclusion of
many of the non-UFO-connected tall tales and pulp-fiction prose
that appeared in and animated TDAR, the only resemblance between
the proposed book and what finally saw print is Corso's Walter
Mittyish ego strutting across the pages.

Also included in the package were the senator's June 5, 1997,
press release about the matter ("Right Foreword, Wrong Book"),
and his June 11, 1997, letter to Simon & Schuster Deputy General
Counsel Eric Raymond, demanding the removal of his
misappropriated foreword from TDAR.

I will not engage in further debate on this matter, on this list
or in any other forum, but will be glad to provide copies of any
or all of these documents to anyone who's interested enough to
cover the cost of copying and mailing. Those who'd like the full
details of the Right Foreword, Wrong Book Caper, will find them
in chapter 16 of my book. Oh, and for what should be a last
laugh, don't miss the hilarious transcript of Paola Harris' July
5, 1997, interview with Corso in the Nov.-Dec. 2001 NEXUS New
Times magazine (pp. 59-60; website: www.nexusmagazine.com),
wherein you'll find babblings that were too goofy even for
TDAR.

-- Cheers, KARL PFLOCK






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                      Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:52:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:31:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Sandow


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:17:42 EST
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


First I want to thank Kevin for his thorough and constructive
reply to me.

 >What we need to do, as
 >researchers, is survey the field to see if there is a
 >distinction. And, what we need to do is check the original
 >report made by the abductee with that at the conclusion of the
 >research, to learn if it has been changed, for whatever reason,
 >between the time it was first reported and the time that the
 >researcher has determined that he or she has completed the
 >investigation. Such a survey would certainly provide clues about
 >researcher influence in the overall abductee picture.

I agree, and in fact I think we need full transcripts (and if
possible audio and video tapes) of researchers' interviews with
abductees. There are serious privacy issues, though. Many
abductees would never talk to researchers if they thought their
material would be shown to others.

 >>What does he mean by "archetypal structure of an abduction"?

 >I believe this is just a fancy way of saying "the abduction
 >experience."

But what aspect of the experience? John does have his fancy ways
of talking, but it's important here to know, again, if he means
the things abductees say happen to them, or the overall meaning
they give to those things.

 >All true, but remember, contrary to what has been reported in
 >other quarters, we did interview Hopkins and Mack on video tape.
 >Not to mention listening to their lectures, listening to their
 >radio appearances, watching them on documentaries and reading
 >their books. And while it is true that we all look at the
 >material through our own filters and put our own spin on the
 >material, it is also true that Mack and Jacobs, in their
 >writings and lectures, have seen this "matching" of experiencer
 >to researcher.

In the end, I think there's no substitute for knowing the
abductees who work with a given researcher. You need to spend
time with them, and spend time watching the researcher work with
them, both one on one and in groups. That way you begin to see
what the relationships might be, in a way you never can from
interviews or any of the other sources Kevin mentions.

For instance, I've known abductees who've worked with Budd for a
number of years, and still disagree with him on the meaning of
the phenomenon. They'd be in what's perceived as John Mack's
camp, even though they keep going to Budd's support group
meetings (very rare these days) and public seminars. I've known
a couple who went both to Budd's events, and to those of a more
new-agey abduction group in New York. Some have worked with both
Budd and John Mack. Lately, he may have burned his bridges with
some of them -- but that, it's interesting to see, wasn't by
trying to change their opinions of abductions. It was by
criticizing Stephen Greer, who some of these more new-age
abductees apparently revere.

Of course, this is just anecdotal reportage on my part. But I
really think you have to be there -- to observe these things
first hand -- before you can even begin to grasp what's going
on. I wouldn't doubt, for instance, that Budd influences the
views of many of the abductees he works with. But how, exactly,
does that occur?

Last night I was at one of the monthly seminars the Intruders
Foundation holds. "Seminar" is maybe not quite the right word --
these are informal lectures, open to the public, where someone
speaks about UFOs or abductions. On this occasion, an abductee
who'd worked with Budd many years ago was talking about his
experiences. He was a very grounded man in, I'd guess, his early
sixties, very factual in the way he described what he said were
his experiences.

Budd stood near the lectern with him, in a perfect position to
dominate the proceedings, had he wanted to. At one point someone
from the audience asked this abductee, "Do you think the aliens
have our interest at heart, or their own?" "I don't know," said
the man, in a completely relaxed, impartial tone. "Maybe a
little of both"

Budd didn't say a word, and that was all we heard about the
subject. Budd's only major intervention in the proceedings was,
at another point, to tell a perfectly awful joke. (Anyone who
knows him won't be surprised to hear that.) Obviously, the
abductee's answer I've quoted didn't reflect his own views, but
he didn't jump in to "correct" the answer, or to establish what
he felt to be the truth.

For whatever it's worth, that's how I've observed him almost all
the time I've watched him work with abductees. In my experience,
he discourages discussion of the aliens' motives, because he
feels it's only speculation. At his support group meetings
(there might, in the time I've known him, have been three or
four a year, at most), he mostly encourages abductees to express
their feelings, and often their doubts (even about the reality
of the phenomenon). That's what he seems to think the support
groups are there -- to help abductees deal with their feelings
about abductions, and not to develop any ideas about what the
phenomenon really means.

How, then, does he influence abductees' opinions? The process is
clearly much more subtle than any theories or assumptions about
it I've ever read. I'd suggest one way in which it might work --
abductees who feel angry or frightened about their abductions
are more likely to get a hearing than those who feel positive.
This is because anger and fear are, apparently, much more common
than awe or delight when abductees first explore their
experiences. I've even heard John Mack and people in his group
say that. They'll explain that abductees have to work through
negative feelings before they can accept what Mack and his
people believe is the truth.

Besides, abductees who feel angry or frightened have raw
feelings, easily understood. They don't have to theorize about
what's going on. They just say, "I felt frightened because I was
helpless. And I was angry because I felt used." Abductees who
feel positive usually feel that way because they have theories.
"Yes, I was frightened, but I thought the aliens were here to do
us good." And as I've said, that kind of discussion is
discouraged. Equally, abductees wouldn't be encouraged to say,
"I felt used, and that's because the aliens only care about
themselves." That, too, would be speculation, and wouldn't be a
popular line of thought at Budd's groups. (Believe it or not,
but that's what I've observed.) The point, in any case, is that
you don't have to theorize to explain why you feel negative
emotions, so those are easier to express.

Thus, you tend to hear and express unpleasant memories of the
experience when you work on abductions with Budd. That,
conceivably, could influence you to form a negative opinion of
what's going on -- though I have to say that I didn't observe
that going on. A cautious, balanced "who knows?" opinion seemed
more common among the people I've known. (The man from last
night's seminar is a pretty typical example.) We'd be
underestimating these abductees, in any case, if we thought they
weren't capable of forming opinions on their own, away from Budd
and his sessions. Which is exactly what many of them have done,
and the opinions might be nothing like Budd's. They just don't
regard Budd's sessions as a place for figuring out what it all
means.

 >So, what you're suggesting is that we are getting the spin of
 >the researchers and not necessarily what the abductees say
 >during their sessions. That we need access to all the raw data
 >so that we can learn what all has been said.

Absolutely!

 >However, it has been my experience that abduction researchers
 >are not as open with their records as we would like. When, for
 >example, we attempted a survey to find out how many abductees
 >reported a precipitating event that mirrored sleep paralysis, we
 >didn't even receive the courtesy of a response to the question
 >from the various researchers that we queried.

 >Yes, I know that some of these records must be protected, and
 >that some of the data are gathered in confidence, but to
 >understand the whole, we need to see the pieces. In the end,
 >we're left drawing the information from their books, their
 >lectures, their TV and radio appearances, and the video taped
 >sessions that they provided for us.

This is unfortunately true. I think Budd and Dave Jacobs should
each write one book in which the raw material is more faithfully
preserved. One alternative, as I suggest, is to spend a lot of
time with the abductees in question. But there are also big
questions of privacy there, and of course questions about
access. I only got access because I was seen as friendly,
supportive, and discreet. That hasn't stopped me from being
critical, but a proclaimed skeptic would probably have a harder
time getting access, no matter how open-minded and honest he or
she truly was.

On the other hand, people from one of the big cable networks
have been spending a lot of time at Budd's events lately, and in
the past other TV shows were able to (including NOVA, which
didn't use the access very intelligently). I know a therapist
who's an abduction skeptic, and still came to at least a few
support group meetings. So it may be that an outsider who was
sympathetic -- without necessarily believing abductions are real
-- could get much of the access I had. Trust is the key issue,
and in my experience it's not necessary to be a believer to earn
that trust.

 >Which is all well and good, but doesn't answer the point that
 >Mack and Jacobs have made... that there is a matching of
 >experiencer with with investigator. Instead, we are presented
 >with a flawed argument for the reality of abduction rather than
 >provided with all the data to make an informed decision.

 >And by flawed arguments, I mean that if the researcher is
 >eliminating the information that doesn't conform to his or her
 >beliefs, then any conclusion we draw from the published body of
 >evidence, from the lectures and interviews will be flawed. Not
 >that the abduction experience itself is flawed, only the
 >conclusion drawn about the work of a specific research is
 >flawed.

I'd put it a little differently -- that we're not in a position
to know whether it's flawed or not. the presentation is flawed;
the research may not be. (Though Sue Strickland has a very good
point about research and support to some extent contradicting
each other, which Kevin also makes later in his post.)

 >Actually, when we move into some of the therapeutic arenas, we
 >do see that the therapists belief structures begin to take over
 >and that allegations of abuse, for example, might be more
 >consistent with the therapist's view of the world than the
 >client's. That is not to say that all therapists implant their
 >views on their clients, but to say that some do. The
 >psychological literature is full of examples and both "He Who
 >Shall Remain Nameless" and Edith Fiore lost their licenses
 >because they did implant their belief structures on their
 >clients.

Yes, of course it goes on, and the history of the past decade or
so with allegations of sexual abuse (some of them prompted by
incompent therapists) demonstrates how true this is.

On the other hand, I think it's easy to overstate how common
this is. The standard experience in psychotherapy is that people
learn what their feelings really are. You don't need to be
facing something gigantic like sexual or spousal abuse for this
to happen. All you need is to be unhappy. Very likely you're not
facing up to what you feel in some everyday situation like your
job or your marriage. In the process of therapy, you begin to
straighten yourself out. It's not yet proved that what abductees
do with Dave Jacobs is essentially any different from that.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                   Re: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower - Cameron

From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:35:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:34:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower - Cameron


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - :; <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :;>
 >Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:18 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower


 >Source: Space.com

 >http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/leonids_2001.html

 >SPECIAL REPORT: 2001 Leonid Meteor Shower

 >The 2001 Leonid meteor shower peaks early Sunday, Nov. 18 and
 >promises to be the best shooting star show in 35 years.

<snip>

The Meteor shower was amazing... best entertainment I've seen in
years.....


Kindest regards to all

Cory Cameron






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.19.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:11:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:58:31 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.19.01


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

November 19, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
11.19.01


Discovery of Buried Impact Craters on Mars Widens Possibility of
an Ancient Martian Ocean

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_25358.htm


Mars Odyssey Snaps First Visible-light Image

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_image_011114.html


New Mars Photos Show Lively Landscape

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mgs_oct_pics_011107.html


Volcanoes Still Active on Mars? New Evidence for Ongoing
Volcanism and Water Release

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_25349.htm


HiRISE Ultra-High Resolution Camera Set for 2005 Launch to Mars

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~mcewen/HiRISE


Microsoft to sponsor 'Surviving Mars' on Discovery Channel

http://www.marssociety.org/bulletins/Bulletin48.1.asp


New Estimate for Thickness of Crust over Europa's Ocean

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/europa_icecrust_011113.htm=
l


Decoding ET: Ancient Tongues Point Way To Learning Alien
Languages

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_decode_011115.html


Fermi's Paradox II: What's Blocking Galactic Civilization? Or
Are We Just Blind To It?

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_fermi2_011108.html


Spies Admit It: There Are No Aliens Out There
http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,587309,00.html

Deep Space Exploration - Looking for Planetary Paydirt

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_mining_011114-1.htm=
l


Strange Sight: Inexplicable Light from a Black Hole

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/emission_impossible_011107.html


Fewer Asteroids In Solar System, But Risk to Earth May Still
Remain

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroid_risk_011108.html


Serving Up Meteorites on Ice
http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Nov01/metsOnIce.html

Comets, Meteors & Myth: New Evidence for Toppled Civilizations
and Biblical Tales

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/comet_bronzeage_011113-1.h=
tml


Cockroaches Were Alive before Dinosaurs

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/11/07/roach.reut/index.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                   Re: The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:07:38 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:19:57 -0500
Subject: Re: The Curse of Corso - Pflock Pfumes


ERROL -- The Curse of Corso continues beyond the grave!

Has this gotten thru to you at your address as well as cc's to
the lists? Your address above was copied directly out of your
message. It's also the one in my address book, which I used to
send the Corso-gram.

Of course, I know you posted all my other recent messages, and
I'm getting the UpDates postings of others, all of which is what
made the Curse of Corso problem all the more weird and
disturbing to me.

YOU HAVE MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES!! Trust you understand why I
was getting a tad suspcious and finally did what I did. Hope we
can straighten out the Hacienda Erehwon - UpDates commo problem.

-- Cheers, MJ-PFUME (aka KARL)









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                    Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:21:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:22:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma - Salvaille


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:52:33 -0500

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:17:42 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Trauma
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

Hello Greg and Kevin,

A very interesting post.

<snip>

 >Besides, abductees who feel angry or frightened have raw
 >feelings, easily understood. They don't have to theorize about
 >what's going on. They just say, "I felt frightened because I was
 >helpless. And I was angry because I felt used." Abductees who
 >feel positive usually feel that way because they have theories.
 >"Yes, I was frightened, but I thought the aliens were here to do
 >us good." And as I've said, that kind of discussion is
 >discouraged. Equally, abductees wouldn't be encouraged to say,
 >"I felt used, and that's because the aliens only care about
 >themselves." That, too, would be speculation, and wouldn't be a
 >popular line of thought at Budd's groups. (Believe it or not,
 >but that's what I've observed.) The point, in any case, is that
 >you don't have to theorize to explain why you feel negative
 >emotions, so those are easier to express.

<snip>

The purpose of group therapy is to help people with (in this
case) common experiences live normal lives.

Perceived abductees do not refer to the people responsible for
their presence in the group?

It would be very surprising that any group therapist would
refuse such a connection. After all, the victim's hope resides
in resolving the issue with the tormentor. Anger and despair
stem from helplessness: the soul topples over the edge when you
surrender your fate to the torturer.

The key is you and the SOB responsible for your feelings, the
link between the two of you, the recalled abject submission you
couldn't help to feel and, somewhere deep inside, the guilty
need to do it again.

I believe anything should go if it leads to some serenity. If
hating aliens or loving them give you this edge, go for it.

But discourage any attempt to get a grasp on _your_ reality?

Hair raising.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 19

              Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:24:38 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:25:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird


 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:57:51 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Another Weird Crater
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >11-18-01

 >Another Weird Crater...

 >by Mac Tonnies

 >http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >page 24

 >[image]

 >The image above shows what appears to be a crater surrounded by
 >concentric rings, perhaps caused by the shock of the impact. But
 >the nature of the impacting object - assuming this is a meteoric
 >crater - is mysterious. The caldera is interestingly "leveled,"
 >much like a large-scale mining operation on Earth. The center of
 >the formation consists of bright, rectilinear furrows, and the
 >right "wall" of the crater appears unnaturally ruler-straight.
 >One does not typically expect craters to exhibit "straightness."
 >Although Mars' erosion can certainly produce interesting effects
 >that suggest artificial construction, the crater above (looking
 >somewhat like a "bootprint") seems well-preserved. That the
 >narrow concentric rings are visible at all implies that this
 >crater appears much as it did when it was formed. That is, of
 >course, assuming it's a crater...

I agree Mac, it doesn't have the tell tail signs of a classic
impact, the hole isn't round, no signs of fall-out from the
impact, the surrounding mountain seems totally unaffected if it
is an impact crater, which really shouldn't be the case.

To me it looks very much like a sink hole, after I was at you
site looking at the second crater you have there and then going
to have a look at the link to the 'Investigating the Allegations
of Indian Nuclear Test Preparations in the Rajasthan Desert'. I
too started to wonder if these craters might have been made by a
large explosions; the first one could have been made by an large
explosion beneath it.

Very interesting.

I still think that Mars was inhabited at one stage, but it seems
something went wrong, very wrong. I'm still in two minds as to
weather or not it was a Natural disaster or a man made one (So
to speak) I wouldn't be surprised one little bit if it turned
out the ET's that are hanging around here on Earth are from Mars
and moved into space because of a disaster of some kind, those
with the money and the technology went into space and the rest
made a mad dash for Earth the best way they could as I feel they
would have known a disaster was on the way. Maybe Noahs ark was
an space ark.


Cheers

Chris








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                     Re: Phillip Krapf on SDI - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:44:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:27:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Phillip Krapf on SDI - Balaskas


 >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:56:48 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Phillip Krapf on SDI

 >Hello All,

 >Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed hearing Mr. Phillip Krapf
 >on 'Strange Days... Indeed', Saturday night. We may not share
 >the same 'take' on the 'visitors' and their 'intentions' but he
 >came across as an open, straightforward and sincere person.

Hi John and listeners of Errol's SDI.

While listening to Phillip Krapf I had some very different and
less generous adjectives to yours come to my mind about this
person. I was certainly surprised and found it strange to hear
Phillip speaking about his alleged E.T. alien encounters on
Errol's UFO radio show.

 >It takes courage for a person to come forward publicly and
 >deliver a report of their own experiences to their incredulous
 >peers. There is no one way to interpret the range of contact
 >experiences that are reported by so many individuals from all
 >over the globe. His account is an interesting addition to the
 >body of reports already in hand.

Yes, it is an interesting addition to the growing body of direct
alien contact accounts but I thought his UFO story and views
were more in harmony with that of the most dubious UFO
contactees and even old Star Trek episodes.

 >I also like that he expressed that he wasn't interested in
 >convincing anyone of anything. That he is only reporting what
 >has happened to him. Sharing the same feeling myself, I concur
 >and completely understand where he is coming from. I welcome the
 >addition of his voice to the "chorus" and I tip my hat to Mr.
 >Krapf for an open and well made presentation of his own
 >experiences.

For someone who has contributed so little of substance towards
furthering our understanding of UFOs or E.T. Life and who does
not even know what he really thinks about his alleged UFO
experiences, Phillip already has two books out on this subject,
with further installments on the way!

Assuming that this Phillip is not just another Corso, the only
conclusions I could come to without discarding any of his
unsupportable testimony is that the very human-looking
extraterrestrials he claims to have encountered (including the
female alien who has taken a special liking to him) are more
likely to be ultraterrestrials (mischievous fairies, lying
demons, etc. - if one believes in such things) or possibly even
an officially sanctioned disinformation plot.


Nick Balaskas









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                           More Baloney Detection

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:44 -0500
Subject: More Baloney Detection

http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html


More Baloney Detection

How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
Part II

By Michael Shermer

[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
  (www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
pseudoscience. The boundary is the line of demarcation between
geographies of knowledge, the border defining countries of
claims. Knowledge sets are fuzzier entities than countries,
however, and their edges are blurry. It is not always clear
where to draw the line. Last month I suggested five questions to
ask about a claim to determine whether it is legitimate or
baloney. Continuing with the baloney-detection questions, we see
that in the process we are also helping to solve the boundary
problem of where to place a claim.

6. Does the preponderance of evidence point to the claimant's
conclusion or to a different one? The theory of evolution, for
example, is proved through a convergence of evidence from a
number of independent lines of inquiry. No one fossil, no one
piece of biological or paleontological evidence has "evolution"
written on it; instead tens of thousands of evidentiary bits add
up to a story of the evolution of life. Creationists
conveniently ignore this confluence, focusing instead on trivial
anomalies or currently unexplained phenomena in the history of
life.

7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
tools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
eyewitnesses).

8. Is the claimant providing an explanation for the observed
phenomena or merely denying the existing explanation? This is a
classic debate strategy--criticize your opponent and never
affirm what you believe to avoid criticism. It is next to
impossible to get creationists to offer an explanation for life
(other than "God did it"). Intelligent Design (ID) creationists
have done no better, picking away at weaknesses in scientific
explanations for difficult problems and offering in their stead
"ID did it." This stratagem is unacceptable in science.

9. If the claimant proffers a new explanation, does it account
for as many phenomena as the old explanation did? Many HIV/AIDS
skeptics argue that lifestyle causes AIDS. Yet their alternative
theory does not explain nearly as much of the data as the HIV
theory does. To make their argument, they must ignore the
diverse evidence in support of HIV as the causal vector in AIDS
while ignoring the significant correlation between the rise in
AIDS among hemophiliacs shortly after HIV was inadvertently
introduced into the blood supply.

10. Do the claimant's personal beliefs and biases drive the
conclusions, or vice versa? All scientists hold social,
political and ideological beliefs that could potentially slant
their interpretations of the data, but how do those biases and
beliefs affect their research in practice? Usually during the
peer-review system, such biases and beliefs are rooted out, or
the paper or book is rejected.

Clearly, there are no foolproof methods of detecting baloney or
drawing the boundary between science and pseudoscience. Yet
there is a solution: science deals in fuzzy fractions of
certainties and uncertainties, where evolution and big bang
cosmology may be assigned a 0.9 probability of being true, and
creationism and UFOs a 0.1 probability of being true. In between
are borderland claims: we might assign superstring theory a 0.7
and cryonics a 0.2. In all cases, we remain open-minded and
flexible, willing to reconsider our assessments as new evidence
arises. This is, undeniably, what makes science so fleeting and
frustrating to many people; it is, at the same time, what makes
science the most glorious product of the human mind.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                       'Abduction in My Life' - Review

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:06:06 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:17:38 -0500
Subject: 'Abduction in My Life' - Review


Abduction In My Life
by
Bruce Maccabee

Review by Mac Tonnies

Dr. Bruce Maccabee's 'Abduction in My Life' is a part-fiction,
part-fact overview of the UFO phenomenon written from the
perspective of an incredulous science fiction writer. While
Maccabee's treatise-written-as-a-novel may fail somewhat as a
piece of literature (the characters are basically props on which
to erect the author's ufological insights), 'Abduction in My
Life' succeeds wonderfully in introducing the reader to the
bizarre world of UFO sightings and the implications of contact
with nonhuman intelligence. A crisply written nonfiction book is
interwoven in Maccabee's narrative, nicely complimenting the
fictional abduction investigated by the protaganist.

Maccabee saves the best for the final chapter, in which
Maccabee's alter-ego (?) Dr. Mac Sargent takes us on a
first-rate ontological crash-course, framing the UFO/alien
problem in its cosmic and societal contexts. Do we dare admit
the presence of alien craft in our skies? What does the UFO
phenomenon tell us about our species' past? Will homo sapiens
survive the next millennium? Such questions form the heart of
this book. Maccabee's speculations are sanely presented and
mentally invigorating. 'Abduction in My Life' is a brisk yet
erudite introduction to the subject of alien contact.

----

For much more, see:

http://mactonnies.com/bookreviews.html









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:30:58 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >Source: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >More Baloney Detection

 >How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >Part II

 >By Michael Shermer

 >[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
 >pseudoscience.

<snip>

 >7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
 >tools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
 >others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
 >can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
 >Intelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
 >with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
 >must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
 >claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
 >with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
 >us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
 >belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
 >experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
 >sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
 >alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
 >photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
 >(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
 >eyewitnesses).

While Shermer put in no qualifiers here, he is apparently
stating that:

1) The vast majority of SETI people proceed from the null
hypothesis that there is no intelligent life anywhere out there.

2) The overwhelming majority of ufologists take the position
that ETI do indeed exist, AND that the ETs have come here to
visit us.

I'm sure this belief/position/opinion is taken by a great many
ufologists, but I would not count myself among them.

Assuming ET has discovered Earth somehow, and being so advanced,
would send intelligent robotic/cybernetic probes; baffling as
those might be.

Others would argue for beings or machines from "other
dimensions", or perhaps time-travel and so forth. A few would
argue for religious phenomena, but lets not get into that.

How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
nobody beats me to it:

* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

(Now I would like  but I don't know how) to ask a large
representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
questions.

Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
UFO people would.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
as that might seem. -LH









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

              Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And NCC's

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 05:39:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:39:18 -0500
Subject: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And NCC's


Conventional Wisdom for Feebs, Dweebs, and NCC's

There's a lot of myopic griping from the ufological luminary
about Ufology not deserving its identification as a breeding
ground for nitwits, crackpots, and cuckoos (NCCs). And there's
lately been considerable moaning about its infestation of same.
To this end, NCC's are arbitrarily identified by, largely, self
appointed and ax grinding gatekeepers in a badly approached
attempt to clean their ufological temple of that undisciplined
dross and intemperate corruption... yea and verily...

But what about the provenance of that so-called dross? Where
does it come from? What compels the corruption and the
foolishness?

To be sure, this conjectured foolishness is the result of bald
ignorance. On that point this writer would agree with the most
strident skeptibunky. Where the SB and this writer diverge is
that the SB won't cop to the awful expansiveness of that
ignorance. He won't admit the contrived enormity of it... It is
an ignorance of wide horizons, encompassing many disciplines,
and it is corrosively pervasive in ways so smooth and reflexive
that its mechanisms are all but undetectable.

Is it an ignorance of design? The short answer is yes. We are
nationally programmed to have a predicted feeling given a
specific stimulus and that programming is very busily engineered
by a media firmly controlled by interests assuredly not our own,
to grind axes, predictably, not in our interest.

The aforementioned skeptibunky sees that ignorance as
self-induced and holds the ignorant individual accountable for
their _own_ ignorance. They reason that it is a bed that the
ignorant _himself_ has insensibly made, despite the SB's 'solid'
information to the (oh so convenient) contrary. Enter the
fallacy of "Conventional Wisdom", and the believable possibility
that Americans, in particular, are very carefully conditioned to
believe all the _wrong_ things to buttress a short- sighted
bottom line.

Tim O'Shea, recently featured on the Rense site at
www.rense.com/general12/believe.htm, makes a pretty good case
for a kind of artfully crafted 'common' sense that rewards the
few as it plunders the many - at least as it pertains to health,
the health system, and the practice of medicine in the United
States. This writer asks: why stop at _that_ institution?

If an institution with the hoary mantle of presumed integrity
like 'Medicine' can be so thoroughly corrupted and embroiled in
conspiracy, why can't ANY institution be corrupted just as
thoroughly for similar reasons? A recent paper I've completed
attempts to demonstrate the potentiality for ready utilization
of ANY opportunity empowering the 'few' to take criminal
advantage of the 'many', if it is profitably possible to do so
<http://www.rense.com/general7/socio.htm>. Isn't the study of
UFOs just such an institution ripe for a similar abuse?

O'Shea quotes from 'Trust Us We're Experts', written by Stauber
and Rampton. It is a textbook on the history of molding public
opinion, and it clearly demonstrates the seriously unethical
(and many times criminal lengths) that corporate entities (among
other organizations of easy conspiracy) have _gone_ to in the
unethically passionate bid to control their contrary bottom
lines.

"Conventional Wisdom" is at issue. Legitimate questions can be
asked to challenge that "Conventional Wisdom" is any kind of
'wisdom' at all... In other words, 'Common Sense' assumed,
presumed, and consumed since the cradle might be something less
than the efficacious best move that it is too reflexively
thought to be. Are rank and file Americans patsies in a cruel
shell game of subtle, and not so subtle, manipulations? Yes,
again. These manipulations are exposed so frequently, even in a
whorish mainstream press, that they require no citation.

UFOs, an understanding of which might truly raise human beings
to a new quantum level, are a subject, then, likely to be a
target of the manipulations O'Shea describes. UFOs touch on
_all_ the levels illustrating the _complete_ human condition.
Their affectations cover the sociological, implicate the
psychological, and dictate the resistance of a current power
elite to any reduction of ignorance regarding it!

The truth is, many times, an amanita to the corporate bottom
line. Consider the story of Erin Brockovich... Truth has no
respect for stockholders and has no regard for their future's
prediction of mere profit and loss...

The truth _is_ out there. That's the problem, the ever present
threat to the suspect status quo, and a hanging sword of
unending concern for the powers that be...

Where is the evidence that a Ufological institution might be
subject to related manipulations referenced in Stauber and
Rampton? If there is such evidence, is it no less convincing
than the programming Americans have endured in other venues
(regarding distortion of the truth for self serving ends)?
Pardon the digression, but if this writer were to perform
socially in a similar manner (?), he would be rightfully accused
of fraud and sent to jail.

Evidence abounds, actually. To limit the scope and the length of
this essay we will snapshot the contributions of one pioneering
ufologist as seemingly far from kookdom as it is possible get
and still maintain a balanced interest in UFOs. This man was Dr.
Josef Allen Hynek, an astronomer of considerable credibility
with brother and sister scientists all over the world.

Dr. Hynek was, and remained throughout his life, a true
scientist. The reader might ask what a true scientist is. It is
a question simply answered. A true scientist goes where the data
leads despite personal concerns, personal desires, or the
destruction of personal beliefs. For a real scientist, it is the
truth that is sought... though heaven falls...

Dr. Hynek was hired as a likely ringer by a government agency,
ostensibly to get to the bottom of the Flying Saucer Situation
(FSS) by matching UFO sighting reports with explainable
atmospheric and celestial events. The only problem was that the
aforementioned agency received its marching orders from a
jealous institution of the powers that... were... - personages
that had begun to cop to the next-level implications of a real
understanding regarding the FSS...

It was not at all clear, you see, that the "powers that were"
would continue to officiate in a world of 'new' understanding...
It was a condition identical to the one faced now by the "powers
that 'are'." Dr. Hynek might help, as Dr. Menzel had (a
skeptibunky of the first water), to shoot this unsettling UFO
thing down...

Pursuant to a Top Secret clearance, Dr. Hynek endured an
interview with the aforementioned agency, and had to answer some
odd questions. He was a no nonsense scholar with impeccable
credentials who, when asked to express his opinion on the
subject of UFO's, said that he thought UFOs were nonsense... He
_did_ think they were nonsense. Demonstrating that (perhaps
preferred?) personal bias, he was hired.

Here are his own words:


      "During this entire period of nearly twenty years
      I have attempted to remain as open- minded in this
      subject as circumstances per- mitted, this despite
      the fact that the whole subject seemed utterly
      ridiculous, and many of us firmly believed that,
      like some fad or craze, it would subside in a
      matter of months."

And:

      "In 1948, I was asked by the U.S. Air Force to
      serve as a scientific consultant on the increasing
      number of reports of strange lights in the sky. I
      was then Director of the Astronomical Observatory
      of Ohio State University, and am now the Chairman
      of the Astronomy Department at Northwestern. I had
      scarcely heard of UFOs in 1948 and, like every
      other scientist I knew, assumed that they were
      nonsense."


Dr. Hynek was privately confident, even while he was
professionally open-minded, that a detailed scientific
examination of the Flying Saucer phenomena would shred these
UFO's up like tissues in a tropical typhoon. But unsettlingly,
as the reports came in and he involved himself with their
undeniable details, his initially easy confidence began to fade:


      "Despite the seeming inanity of the subject, I
      felt that I would be derelict in my scien- tific
      responsibility to the Air Force if I did not point
      out that the whole UFO pheno- menon might have
      aspects to it worthy of scientific attention."


As his private confidence faded Dr. Hynek reluctantly
transitioned into that rarest of ufological beasts. He began to
become a convert...

      "All of this increased my own concern and sense of
      personal responsibility and moti- vated me to urge
      the initiation of a meaning- ful scientific
      investigation of the UFO pheno- menon by physical
      and social scientists. I had guardedly raised this
      suggestion in the past and at various official
      hearings, but with little success. UFO was a term
      that called forth buffoonery and caustic banter
      precisely because scientists paid no attention to
      the raw data - the reports them- selves."

...and then found himself saddled with some of the aspects of a
rank believer:

      "Still, on the average, if several pilots and/or
      policemen concur on the main points of the story,
      particularly if the duration of their experience
      was long enough (a mat- ter of minutes rather than
      seconds) to have brought their judgement into
      play, it is difficult to brush aside their
      seemingly hardheaded testimony. And when one gets
      reports from scientists, engineers and tech-
      nicians whose credibility by all common standards
      is high and whose moral caliber seems to preclude
      a hoax, one can do no less than hear them out, in
      all seriousness."

Additionally:

      "As a scientist, I must be mindful of the lessons
      of the past; all too often it has happened that
      matters of great value to science were overlooked
      because the new phenomenon simply did not fit the
      accepted scientific outlook of the time. I cannot
      dismiss the UFO phenomenon with a shrug. I have
      begun to feel that there is a tendency in 20th
      Century science to for- get that there will be a
      21st Century science, and indeed a 30th Century
      science, from which vantage points our knowledge
      of the universe may appear quite different than it
      does to us. We suffer, perhaps, from temporal
      provincial- ism, a form of arrogance that has
      always ir- ritated posterity"

Dr Hynek, among significant others, was an obvious portal of
ufological respectability that the mainstream consciously, and
with arbitrary malice of forethought, took pains to avoid. The
mainstream, then as now, preferred ridicule to seriousness,
mockery to earnestness, and active scorn to productive
investigation. Why?

Dr. Hynek was an EARLY indicator of the validity of the UFO
phenomenon, its veracity as a fulcrum of scientific advancement,
and finally, its portentous _reality_. Dr. Hynek made it
abundantly clear that UFOs were real, operated in a manner that
was not consistent with anything man made, and, moreover, he
demonstrated that quality people from all walks of life and
station... from general officers to general contractors...
thought so, too.

Quality people have _always_ thought there was something to
unidentified flying objects. It is only a jealous and
intransigent mainstream that paints a ufological interest as the
domain of green toothed trailer dwellers - the inappropriately
maligned feebs, dweebs and NCCs... unfortunate individuals that,
bad as they are, are still better than their skeptibunky
detractors because they're at least trying to go where the data
leads!

The reader is cautioned that it is not an unfortunate
infestation of the ufological temple that is the issue.
_Rather_: it is the suspected abundance of quality data that
cannot be accessed by researchers of _any_ type. It is the sullen
recalcitrance and lack of general forthcomingness of closed
institutions that encourages the actions of these confused NCCs
who must surely (and conveniently for the establishment) take
deconstructive advantage of their inexplicable informational
void... And it is, finally, the lack of collegiality of the
current crop of investigators, their professional snobbery,
selfishness, and ego (plus their credulously doting appreciation
for that doting mainstream 'science' that does not appreciate
them) that keeps the subject of UFOs in the Sargasso sea of
tepidly complacent indifference presently endured.

UFOs are real, they have always been real, and they will
continue to be real It is the establishment's concern for a
convenient status quo that makes the _arbitrary_ decision to
dismiss the ufological as a province of gullible fools, weak
minded new-agers, and credulous revisionists. It is not the
current crop of NCC's that keeps UFOs in an informational limbo;
they're a logical reaction to that suspicious informational
void... It is, rather, the mechanism of a duplicitous mainstream
that keeps them in ubiquitous shadows for perfectly predicable
reasons all its own.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                            Test - Please Ignore

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:12:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:12:21 -0500
Subject: Test - Please Ignore





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                               New Research CD

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:13:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:25:15 -0500
Subject: New Research CD



Hi All,

Please find, below, the link to my other new Research CD. This
CD is all about different aspects of the Occult, throughout the
decades.

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/OccultCD.htm

All the best,


Roy..










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                   Re: More Baloney Detection - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:04:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:30:11 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Strickland


From: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <ufoupdates@home.com>
To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:13 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: More Baloney Detection

 >Source: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >More Baloney Detection
 >How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >Part II

 >By Michael Shermer

 >[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 > (www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

Dear Listers,

I would like to debate each of Michael Shermer's statements in
his article, 'More Baloney Detection'. However, for brevity's
sake, I have chosen to point out only his first big boo-boo, on
which he bases all of his other premises for his argument (which
by the way is unclear). It appears that Mr. Shermer believes
that it is necessary to draw distinct boundary lines between
what may be perceived as 'possible' vs. 'impossible'.

 >When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >'boundary problem' of where to draw the line between science and
 >pseudoscience.

First boo-boo. A well-trained scientist does not draw
boundaries, either in theoretical thinking nor in application of
theory. We would still be trying to invent the wheel, if that
were the case. Although scientists have themselves made a
distinction between what defines them as primarily a
'theoretical' scientist or a 'research' or 'experimental'
scientist, neither form is applauded nor denegrated as 'better
than', or 'worse than' the other. Both use the scientific method
and both try exceptionally hard to avoid drawing boundaries
between what is 'possible', and what is 'impossible'.

Max Planck and Albert Einstein were considered 'theoretical'
scientists. They were able to 'think outside the box'.. Planck
won the Nobel Prize in 1918 for his quantum theory, from which
lasers, neon lights, and florescent lights were later designed
and built by 'experimental' scientists. In 1921, Einstein won
the Nobel Prize for his photoelectric effect, from which theory
the TV and video cameras were later invented by 'experimental'
scientists. In 1956, 3 'experimental or 'research' physicists
(Bardeen, Shockley & Brattain) received the Nobel prize for
their invention of the transistor, which was built on quantum
theory. This distinction is well-known and accepted by
scientists practicing either form, because one form compliments
the other. None of the above scientists drew imaginary lines in
their minds to reach the theoretical or practical applications
for which their work is applauded. They apparently did not feel
the need to do so, or were able to counteract whatever tendancy
they may have felt to do so, in order to get to the 'truth'
about the subject at hand, whereever that might lead them.

Apparently, Mr. Shermer is unaware of this bi-lateral,
cohabitating distinction between scientists, or has chosen to
ignore a boundary that is commonly accepted in the scientific
investigative community. Mr. Shermer has chosen to lump both the
theoretical and research goals and methods of scientific
investigation into one nebulous group. The only 'scientific'
group that fits that discription is the nefarious 'scientific'
group now calling itself 'Ufologists.'

Rather than defining camps of scientific investigation into
'theory' vs. 'experimental research' into the UFO phenomena,
ufologists have defined themselves as 'believers' vs. 'debunker'
investigators. They have already drawn lines in their minds by
allowing this to occur. By his questions, Mr. Shermer has
defined himself as a 'debunker' in the 'research' camp, looking
for methods to debunk theory, which theory is not yet tested,
much less accepted. In his efforts to 'test the theory,' he
proposes ways and means to make the theory 'less fuzzy,' by
drawing lines and boundaries for how and what we should
theorize. Here again, we are getting the cart before the horse,
if we do so.

 >The boundary is the line of demarcation between
 >geographies of knowledge, the border defining countries of
 >claims. Knowledge sets are fuzzier entities than countries,
 >however, and their edges are blurry. It is not always clear
 >where to draw the line.

If 'ufologists' want to practice science, 'fuzziness' must be
accepted as part 'n parcel of the process to gain knowledge.
Accept it. See where it takes you, theoretically. BTW, the
metaphor Mr. Shermer uses to define 'geographies of knowledge,'
is a poor one to argue his point. We, the human species, have
drawn lines on maps to demarcate boundaries. Those 'boundary
lines' don't exist in reality. If you're flying in an airplane
looking down on the land being discussed, you won't see the
states or countries outlined in red. If you're up 10 miles in
space, the Sahara desert is only a brown patch amongst white
filmy clouds and a blue expanse of oceans. Our little planet
Earth does not resemble the globe we have chosen to depict our
reality. We draw our own boundary lines on maps and in our
minds.

It is obvious Mr. Shermer has a great deal of trouble thinking
'outside the box,' and must for his own sense of security, draw
lines and boundaries to demarcate that which he finds too
'impossible' to contemplate. It is time for all of us to throw
out the 'believers' vs. 'debunkers' concepts and begin to think
in terms of 'theoretical' vs. 'experimental.' I am better able
to accept _my_ possible bias as an experiencer under those
labels, and look beyond for possible solutions in the
'experimental' camp. It does no positive good to wallow in what
I cannot comprehend, when other's inability to 'think outside
the box' only limit my thinking or behavior further. (Maybe
that's why Einstein became such a recluse in his later years.)
Therefore, I will not accept Mr. Shermer's questions about how
to discern 'baloney' as valid or invalid at this time. Maybe he
can state the questions with fewer 'boundaries' later, with less
obvious bias.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

               Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters?

From: Center for Psychology and Social Change <info@centerchange.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:55:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:32:19 -0500
Subject: Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters?


Dear List,

If anyone in the Chicago area sees an article on alien
encounters in their newspaper this week, would you please let us
know?

We helped a reporter out a couple days ago but we didn't
remember the name of the paper. It may be one of the smaller
papers, not the major ones. Anyway we'd love to read it.


Thanks!


Will Bueche

--
Center for Psychology and Social Change
Co-Founded by John E. Mack, M.D.
PO Box 398080, Cambridge, MA 02139
www.centerchange.org









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                      The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:53:07 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:20:27 -0500
Subject: The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse


One List member asked me, if, in the light of new information,
my publishers had decided to omit the a section that I had
planned to include on the lighthouse theory in my paperback, You
Can't Tell The People. If so, would I be prepared to post it on
Updates.

The truth is, that I personally decided to exclude it because
the new information, especially that from Halt and one of the
primary witnesses, seemed to demolish the theory that it could
have been a lightship, as Robert McLean now thinks.

The fact is, that Halt admitted that the red light was in the
forest and when it stopped in front of him at eye level, it was
a solid object. I cannot imagine that a lighthouse or a
lightship for that matter, would able to fly through the sky,
move in and out of the trees and hover at about five foot.
Unless of course, Dr Who had anything to with it :-)

I am posting the piece that was intended for the paperback, here
on Updates. This is based on Robert McLean's research into the
lighthouse/lightship theory. I respect Robert's research but if
you have read the paperback update, you will see why I made this
decision. Apart from Halt's latest, there are so many other
things to consider, such as the events that happened 100 years
ago. Even if the lighthouse was around at that time, which I
have not yet checked, I don't think the lightships were in
operation. The other factor is that Robert has not proved
anything, and for me, I'd rather go with first hand witness
testimony and facts, such as the recently discovered USAF
photographs of the landing site which feature ground
indentations exactly like those mentioned in Halt's tape
recording of the event. And let us not forget the famous memo,
which describes one of the objects.

We simply must move on with the case and the sceptics should
accept that the lighthouse and lightships were not responsible.
After all, there is so much else to take in. One cannot just
take a fraction of this huge case and spend a lifetime trying to
make things fit into a theory. You must take the whole case and
try to understand what the UFOs were and where they came from.
That is what we need to understand.

Here then is the piece that was intended for the paperback.

----------------------------------

It was not my intention to give more space to the tired
lighthouse theory, especially as I have dedicated an entire
chapter to addressing this and other sceptical claims. However,
several sceptics have accused me of not dealing with these
theories in detail, but it is worth mentioning that these same
people have totally ignored the new evidence, which proves that
the lighthouse was of no significance. But not to further
disappoint those who favour the lighthouse theory, I consulted
local researcher Robert McLean, who is himself somewhat of a
sceptic. McLean does not believe it was a real UFO encounter and
argues that the lighthouse was not the only factor, but that
other terrestrial lights may have been partially involved. Just
the same, he is sceptical of the traditional lighthouse theory
and is of the opinion that the latter does not stand up to
careful analysis.

As we know, the traditional sceptical theory is that Lieutenant
Colonel Halt mistook the beam of the Orfordness lighthouse for a
UFO, and followed it into the farmer's field where it can be
seen to line up with the Boast house. According to McLean, the
line of sight to the lighthouse, using a compass for
measurement, would have been about 98 degrees. However, Halt's
audio recording of the event clearly reveals that the light the
patrol initially followed was about 110 or 120 degrees on the
compass, and as such, the debate continues whether or not there
was a 12 or 22 degree measurement error. McLean points out that
a clue to the identity of this light is given by Halt on his
tape, that they "made sighting again at about 110 degrees" when
in the "second farmer's field". When Brenda Butler discussed the
incident with Halt in 1983 he apparently mentioned that during
their walk they had reached a hill where they could see a river
below. Brenda thinks the location is probably that of Burrow
Hill, which is about 2.5 km east of the landing sites. McLean
states that the lighthouse cannot be seen from the top of Burrow
Hill because trees and farm buildings block the view. But he
explains that there is an unobstructed line of sight at about
115 degrees on the compass to where the Shipwash lightship was
situated at the time of the incident. This was taken out of
service on 25 October 1993. Charles Halt has confirmed that the
patrol recognised the lighthouse, which he has described as a
white light that was 30 to 35 degrees off to the right of the
UFO. But McLean is of the opinion that Halt was referring to the
beam of the Shipwash lightship. He has it in writing from
Trinity House that the beam was indeed white and was not blanked
off at any point, but was an "all around" light.

However, the implication of this, according to McLean, is that
the light initially seen in the forest was also that of the
Shipwash lightship, or sceptically, the light from Orfordness
lighthouse, and that the UFO appeared off to the left shortly
afterwards. He refers to a section on the tape where Master
Sergeant Ball says "at about 11 o'clock" and "Look to the left."
Followed by Sergeant Nevilles "There's two lights. One light to
the right and one light to the left." McLean points out that the
flash sequence of the Shipwash lightship, matches the interval
of the light initially seen just as well as the regular
five-second pattern of Orfordness lighthouse. Sceptic Steuart
Campbell was the first to argue the lightship theory after
listening to Halt's recording of the incident in the 1980s. He
was also of the opinion that the flashes of the UFO were
consistent with the Shipwash lightship. But McLean is certain
that there was no direct view of the Shipwash lightship from the
alleged landing sites because of intervening trees in Oak Wood.
Only the light from Orfordness lighthouse could have been
visible, however this disappears from view at a point of 126 m
from the eastern edge of Rendlesham Forest. This in turn begs
the question of what happened during the subsequent 2.4 km on
the way to Burrow Hil,l when no lighthouse or lightship could
have been visible. Assuming this was the route taken, Colonel
Halt's patrol would have needed to cross, or find ways around,
up to ten drainage ditches on their way to Burrow Hill and not
just the one ditch that he has often mentioned. It is worth
pointing out that I personally came across the ditch Halt refers
to, in fact I almost fell into it, and as far as I am aware, it
is not in the position recognised by Robert McLean.

As a result of these difficulties McLean questions whether the
location of the landing sites have been correctly identified. He
suggests that if Burrow Hill were the location of the second
farmer's field, then Colonel Halt's patrol would have seen the
light from yet another lightship 26.5 km distant, with the odd
name of Sunk. The Sunk lightship is still visible today from
Burrow Hill, and would have been seen in 1980 at a magnetic
heading of about 171 degrees. McLean suggests that this
lightship may have been the source of the "strobe-like flashes"
mentioned by Halt. I commend McLean's research and there is no
doubt that he has done an excellent job of mapping and measuring
the area but like Charles Halt and indeed all the witnesses, I
have to argue that there is far more to this case that flashing
lights from a nearby lighthouse or lightships.

End

------------------

For those of you who have contacted me to inform me that my
paperback is not yet available with www.netstoreusa.com that's
because it was only published in the UK last week. Please try
www.amazon.co.uk who will post overseas.

Thank you
Georgina Bruni










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:53:13 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:25:01 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:54:34 EST
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: The Rendlesham Revelation!

In response to the latest statement from Tim Matthews regarding
the Rendlesham Revelation, I have several comments to make.

Firstly, I am disappointed that Tim claimed to have some new
revelations to the case, to quote from one of his posts

'A completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
perhaps the British UFO story of the year.'

The revelation is not what it seems and unfortunately is another
of Tim's famous spins. And don't we just love them ;-)

 >'BUFOSC's Tim Matthews announced today at an event
 >held in Runcorn, Cheshire, that he had solid information that
 >a serious leak of radioactive material had occurred at the
 >Sizewell A nuclear power station, situated on the coast a
 >short distance from RAF Woodbridge-Bentwaters, during
 >the Christmas period in December 1980.

 >He reported that his information came from a credible
 >source, a former movement. "Leaks from Sizewell A and
 >similar facilities were well known at the time," he said, "and
 >continue today. the late 1970s/early 1980s have been
 >described to me as "dark times" for the British nuclear
industry."

Tim, the Sizewell leak was not an isolated one and it is not
exactly a short distance from where the incident took place.
There were several problems at that plant.  The alleged 1980
leak was reported to me during my research for the book, but
like so many other rumours that were going on, I did not think
there was enough substance to it. As I explained to your
colleague Eric Morris, who kindly wrote to me recently
concerning this and the rumour about HMS Norfolk, even if there
was a radiation leak, it is unlikely it had anything to do with
the incident in Rendlesham Forest. Don't forget that the
radiation readings were much higher inside the landing site than
they were on the outside, this especially applies to the trees.

 >Matthews said that he was convinced that many of the stories
 >regarding aliens and crashed craft that emerged in East Anglia in
 >January 1980, in some >cases before the Halt Memorandum was
 >written, were part of a deliberate >smokescreen put in place by
 >elements associated with both the nuclear industry (security) and
 >the MOD.

What about all the incidents prior to the 1980 incident, as
reported in my book? And what about the events that took place
before we had aircraft or nuclear plants?

 >Matthews particularly concentrated upon stories generated by a
 >"mystery" >character, Steve Roberts, who contacted Rendlesham
 >researchers Dot Street >and Brenda Butler at the time and was the
 >first to spread what proved to be disinformation of the worst sort.

Steve Roberts was probably telling the truth when he first
talked to Chris and Brenda a few days after the incident. I have
come to this conclusion due to the latest information from Halt
and one of the primary witnesses. I managed to find Roberts, not
his real name of course, and interviewed him for my book, so
he's not a mystery anymore, at least not to me. I think the
later stories were disinformation, which was a result of
influence by Colonel Halt. Recall they arrived in England at the
same time and Roberts was a messenger for Halt when he visited
Chris and Brenda. It's not the first time that Halt has
influenced the witnesses into not being open about certain
aspects of the case, as I report in my book. Penniston and
Burroughs were shocked that he led the Strange But True? TV team
to the wrong landing site. Halt has his own reasons for this,
and I'm not going to go into this at this time. But suffice to
say that he does not want all the truth to come out because it
would be too shocking.

 >Eric Morris and Carolyn Buckley had, it emerged, agreed to reopen
 >their investigation into Rendlesham after speaking to a number of
 >witnesses to events in December 1980 featured in contemporary
 >newspaper reports. Their testimony had not been included in later
 >magazine articles and books on the incident. Perhaps new information
 >might move the overall investigation forward?

I'd be interested to see what Eric comes up with because I spent
days reading newspaper reports from that period and other dates,
interviewing many of the civilian witnesses. I'm sure there are
many more out there which have not yet gone public.

 >Matthews also noted the interesting parallels and timing of the
 >operations of >the US Air Force Office of Special Investigations
 >(AFOSI) in North America and the UK between 1980-1983. he
 >said, "It is worth pointing out that, at the same time, Master
 >Sergeant Richard Doty was spreading stories of aliens and
 >crash retrievals around the US UFO research community. Why
 >not do the same thing in Britain? According to Georgina Bruni,
 >AFOSI had several operatives close to the Rendlesham Incident."

Sorry Tim, no way was the AFOSI spreading disinformation of a
UFO nature, quite the opposite in fact. I interviewed Wayne
Persinger, the Deputy Base Commander of the AFOSI for the bases.
The disinformation was that they were trying to cover up the UFO
story, not what you suggest. His wife (see my book) finally
admitted that she also witnessed the UFO during Christmas week
and that her husband refused to accept her testimony at the
time, suggesting it was a helicopter. Diana's testimony to me
proves that this was not the case. AFOSI did have several
operatives at the bases. In fact it was Wayne Persinger who set
up the original AFOSI units in the UK, the first one being at
RAF Lakenheath.There are AFOSI units in most US bases, with a
head office, that at the time was at Uxbridge. I also reveal the
names of all AFOSI agents including the commander and those who
briefed (interrogated) the witnesses. One of these names was
confirmed by Jim Penniston, and at the time I did not offer him
that information. Not only did Penniston's information match,
but the agent, I learnt (not from Penniston) said the files on
the incident ended up at the Pentagon.

 >In January 1981, the exact same time the Halt Memorandum
 >was written and >Steve Roberts first came forward, a Public
 >Enquiry, subsequently chaired by >Sir Frank Layfield, into the
 >construction of a second, controversial, nuclear plant at Sizewell
 >(Sizewell B) was  announced. At the most crucial time of the
 >enquiry, held between 1983 and 1985, the massively exaggerated
 >mass media reporting of the supposed "alien crash landing and
 >UFO retrieval" began in earnest. October 2nd, 1983, saw the
 >first report in the News of the World newspaper which, according
 >to staff at the MOD, "stirred up a hornet's nest" and which,
 >Matthews added, possibly directed people away from the truth
 >behind the events of December 1980...

I am sure that the Government would want to keep the UFO
incident a secret for several reasons, including the fact that
the Bentwaters base deployed nuclear weapons, but I think you
are going off track here by suggesting that this the Government
invented this incident to take the heat off something else. This
is not at all a revelation, but a ridiculous theory, almost in
line with the lighthouse and tractor stories we hear. The very
fact that the MOD files record that the evidence was given to a
US General, that Defence Intelligence Staff were involved in the
inquiry, along with numerous other data, is sufficient to prove
that the government did not invent this. And what about the USAF
photos I discovered recently, and all the countless witnesses.
The only reason the case was finally reported in the press was
because CAUS had acquired Halt's memorandum, which was given to
Dot Street, who went public with it at a BUFORA conference,
which resulted in it becoming public knowledge. Nothing
conspiratorial here. The rest is history.

In another coincidence, a "whistleblower" and peace activist,
Hilda Murrell, said to have vital information on actual and
potential leaks from UK nuclear facilities, and who had written
a damning report on the subject that later vanished, died under
mysterious circumstances in March 1984.

When I first heard about the alleged Sizewell connection during
my research, I borrowed a book from my father, titled "Enemies
of the State by Garry Murray. I recommend this as excellent
reading for anybody interested in the Sizewell plant and
especially Hilda Murrell. The reason I took an interest was
because Murrell's son had contacted Brenda Butler wanting to
discuss his mother's murder. As far as I can remember, it was
nothing to do with Rendlesham, but because Brenda lived in the
area and had been mentioned in the press. However, Brenda did
not follow it up because it was too sensitive. Anyway, Gary
Murray gives a full account of the Sizewell story, and as a
former RAF Police Special Forces Investigator, and private
investigator assisting MI5, he exposes the facts behind
Murrell's murder.

 >The truth, said Matthews, was that between 1980-1983 Cold War
 >paranoia, the stationing of Cruise missiles at UK bases and the
 >failings of the nuclear industry were all political hot
 >potatoes. He said that the intelligence services were working
 >overtime to keep a lid on possible leaks of information >and on
 >the situation in general. Perhaps the hapless UFO community
 >might be a useful target for disinformation?

Please read my book, chapter "Defending The Realm" where I
report on several nuclear accidents and cover a good deal of
information concerning the Government cover-up. If anything, it
is more likely that the UFO events were a result of our
harbouring these weapons. Several such bases around the world
have had similar UFO encounters. Nothing to do with the
Government instigating UFO incidents.

 >Tim added that an unusual, albeit genuine looking "hoax"
 >document, revealing information on a claimed "contact" scenario
 >involving alien beings "of 1 1/2 metres in height" and US Air
 >Force personnel, written on headed Ministry of Defence
 >notepaper, had made its way into the 150 page Rendlesham File
 >recently released to BUFOSC and others. The MOD, it emerged,
 >"had no idea" where the document came from, despite the fact
that it seems to have been internally generated. Was this
 >document used to mislead UFO researchers back in the early
 >1980s or was the information contained therein a template for
 >subsequent disinformation? It would seem so...

Tim, this document has been around since 1984. We have a very
good idea who was responsible for it. Dot's 1983-84 tapes offer
good explanations. I did not include this in my book because it
was so ridiculous, and besides I might have been tempted to
reveal other hoaxes perpetrated by well known ufologists. One
such incident involved using Halt's son (I have the original
recording) as a witness, dressed up to make him look older, and
ready to talk to the media. These hoaxes were not only time
wasting but very childish. I felt by reporting them it would
make British ufology look ridiculous.

I know how much you like to spin Tim :-) but I didn't think you
would bring up old information and claim it is:

"A completely new revelation on Rendlesham, quite remarkable and
perhaps the British UFO story of the year."

Come on, you can do better than that! Isn't it time you got your
facts right.


Georgina

Out now, the paperback version (Updated) "You Can't Tell The
People". The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO
Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by Pan Books (Macmillan)
Available in all good book shops and on-line at:
www.amazon.co.uk









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:59:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:29:12 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Maccabee


 >Source: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html


 >More Baloney Detection

 >How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >Part II

 >By Michael Shermer

 >[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 > (www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
 >pseudoscience. The boundary is the line of demarcation between
 >geographies of knowledge, the border defining countries of
 >claims. Knowledge sets are fuzzier entities than countries,
 >however, and their edges are blurry. It is not always clear
 >where to draw the line. Last month I suggested five questions to
 >ask about a claim to determine whether it is legitimate or
 >baloney. Continuing with the baloney-detection questions, we see
t>hat in the process we are also helping to solve the boundary
 >problem of where to place a claim.

(SKIP # 6)

SemiPseudoScientist Shermer writes:

 >7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
t>ools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
 >others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
 >can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
I>ntelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
 >with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
 >must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
 >claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
 >with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
 >us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
 >belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
 >experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
 >sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
 >alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
 >photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
 >(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
 >eyewitnesses).


This is crummy reasoning. Ufology began with unexplained
sightings (acknowledged by the Air Force). "Ufologists"
developed in response to th failure of the Air Force and
scientific community fully address the unexplainable sightings.
Ufologists did not "begin" with the assumption that ETIs exist,
but rather _arrived_ at that as a _tentative_ conclusion after
analyzing unexplained cases.

To argue that SETI folks proceed from the assumption that there
are NO ETIs is silly. Why look for them if there are none? SETI
began with the suggestion that there might be ETIs (hence the
Drake equation as an attempt to justify the assumption) and that
we would never know the answer unless we searched (using radio
as being the longest range means of communication.... nowadays
expanded to optical/laser communication).

Not surprising that he SETI folks agree that they must provide
convincing proof. They have already "overlooked" some transient
signals which MIGHT be ETI evidence (transient because of
"scintillation" in the interstellar medium, we are now told)
because the "proof" will only come with a steady signal of
clearly non-solar system and non-natural origin.

But, by the same token the ufologists have claimed that there is
evidence for Other Intelligence (OI) flying around, but that
that evidence has not been fairly treated. The evidence became
available in 1947 (and I don't necessarily refer to Roswell),
long before anyone was saying "There must be ET's so we should
look for spaceships flying around).

I wonder what the SETI people will be saying ten years from now
after there have been hundreds of transient signals that are
unexplained, yet not long enough duration to "prove" they are
signs of ET communications. Will some SETI'ists say, "Well, we
have a lot of evidence that ET's exist, but the evidence has
been ignored as not convincing. Therefore we should keep looking
in spite of the poor quality evidence we have."

If there were no truly unexplainable sightings that also provide
considerable details of the phenomenon being observed, and many
of these sightings going back to the early days 1940's, early
50's, before "ufologists", I probably wouldn't be here. Shermer
should read 'Prosaic Explanations: the Failure of UFO Skepticism'
at:

http://brumac.8k.com

click on "PAPERS" and scroll to the bottom








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 20

               Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:18:07 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:31:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And NCC's
 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 05:39:16 -0600


 >Conventional Wisdom for Feebs, Dweebs, and NCC's

With Errol's permission:

Dear List, EBK,

 >There's a lot of myopic griping from the ufological luminary
 >about Ufology not deserving its identification as a breeding
 >ground for nitwits, crackpots, and cuckoos (NCCs). And there's
 >lately been considerable moaning about its infestation of same.
 >To this end, NCC's are arbitrarily identified by, largely, self
 >appointed and ax grinding gatekeepers in a badly approached
 >attempt to clean their ufological temple of that undisciplined
 >dross and intemperate corruption... yea and verily...

First off, a little levitation, levity, sorry ... regarding your
remark about nitwits, crackpots and cuckoos ... I occasoinally
resemble that remark, so watch it Bub!

As for the gatekeepers, they never get it right. Rather than
mitigate, they augment the search for absolute truth by adhering
only to their own opinion of that which is right. Which is often
wrong for the research.

Hynek, of whom you write below, is the prime example of a
scientific mind allowing for all the variables to percolate
without the negativity of the skeptic, the absolute truth of the
skeptibunker or the angst of the so-called true believer.

Truth be known, Hynek may be the best example of the UFO
researcher this subject has ever known. Way before his time, he
approached the subject with his science as the alley of the
research, rather than the enemy of the subject studied. Will
wonders never cease?

And still, J. Allan Hynek is not often quoted on this list.
Perhaps his association with Blue Ball (sorry, that's a town in
Pennsylvania), I meant Blue Book ... his association with that
project made him anathema. And he did coin the phrase, "Swamp
Gas." His dissociation with Blue Book was not a mistake, but is
often referred to as a negative in his career - and by
researchers of this subject.

So why is it I ask, that Hynek's book is not used as a model for
the research done today? At least in terms of attitude. And as
well, in the face of the present attitude of mainstream science,
should be required reading of any so-called scientist who
chuckles at the mere mention of UFO.

Hynek wrote:

"A critic of the UFO scene once remarked, ' ... unexplained
sightings do not constitute evidence in favor of flying saucers
any more than they constitute evidence in favor of flying pink
elephants.'"

Writer's note: I am relatively certain he meant pink flamingoes!

Hynek went on to say that the "strangeness spectrum" of UFO
reports is narrow, so narrow that not only have flying pink
elephants not been reported, but a " ... definite pattern of
strange 'craft' has. If these objects are indeed not what they
appear to be, then it is strange that the imaginations of those
who report them should be so restricted.

I'll accept that. But even more important is his commentary on
this "strange spectrum" of reports. He says that they are so
narrow that they CAN be studied. He wrote, "Scientific study
presupposes data patterns and a measure of repeatability, and by
and large, UFO reports lend themselves to classification withint
their domains of strangesess."

And what of the scientists? Hynek placed them in two categories,
the first being those who treat the phenomenon with ridicule and
the second, those who come to believe that the phenomenon is
generated by individual or group mental activity. He states and
I quote:

"No scientist who examines the subject objectively can claim for
long that UFO's are solely the products of simple
misidentification of normal objects and events." The second
group constitutes those who have taken the time to study the
phenom.

"Scientists who have taken the trouble and time to examine the
problem ... should be heard."

Hynek says that the views of the former group must be
discounted, as this group has not examined the data. He chides
scientists and therefore "science," for not advancing science.
Quoting Thomas Goudge, who was a noted Canadian philosopher as
defining how science advances.

" ... the necessary condition of scientific advancement is that
allowance must be made for (1) genuinely new empirical
observations and (2) new explanation schemes, including new
basic concepts and new laws."

In this arena of scientific non-study, science is by Goudge's
reasoning, not advancing. I might add that Hynek quotes Goudge
in his book, "The UFO Experience."

I again wonder how many of you on this list have read that book
and how many of you have comments about the content. It should,
as I wrote, be required reading for anyone interested in this
subject.

As an aside, I was surprised at how Hynek was so able to
communicate his ideas in writing. Clearly and concisely. And
whilst I am at it, may I, again with Errol's countenance,
commend Al Lehmberg for what I consider to be the best essay on
this subject I have ever read. I wish the hell I could write
that well. You are to be commended for that work, Al, and
commended as well, for bringing up the subject of Hynek, which
is blatantly missing on this and other lists.

 >But what about the provenance of that so-called dross? Where
 >does it come from? What compels the corruption and the
 >foolishness?

 >To be sure, this conjectured foolishness is the result of bald
 >ignorance. On that point this writer would agree with the most
 >strident skeptibunky. Where the SB and this writer diverge is
 >that the SB won't cop to the awful expansiveness of that
 >ignorance. He won't admit the contrived enormity of it... It is
 >an ignorance of wide horizons, encompassing many disciplines,
 >and it is corrosively pervasive in ways so smooth and reflexive
 >that its mechanisms are all but undetectable.

 >Sadly Snipped but for brevity.

I would hear the comments on this List, of others on the subject
of Hynek's book. I shall await withall. But don't take too long,
I have discovered a new brew of Mexican beer. It has within that
precious bottle of amber elixir, choate juice and some lime to
flavor it oh so gently. Vive Mexico. And I do _not_ "burp." I
"hic."


Jim Mortellaro








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                 Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:00:01 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:08:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01 - Tonnies


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 11-18-01
 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:24:38 +1100

<snip>

 >I still think that Mars was inhabited at one stage, but it seems
 >something went wrong, very wrong. I'm still in two minds as to
 >weather or not it was a Natural disaster or a man made one (So
 >to speak) I wouldn't be surprised one little bit if it turned
 >out the ET's that are hanging around here on Earth are from Mars
 >and moved into space because of a disaster of some kind, those
 >with the money and the technology went into space and the rest
 >made a mad dash for Earth the best way they could as I feel they
 >would have known a disaster was on the way. Maybe Noahs ark was
 >an space ark.


I don't think there's any doubt that Mars was "killed" rather
abruptly. I tend to think the impact that created the Hellas
basin did the job, blasting most of the atmosphere into space.
Such a thing would wipe out most life but might be
survivable--especially if you happen to be on the other side of
the planet (i.e. Cydonia).

--Mac






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

               CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:46:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:28:03 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

November 20, 2001

_____________________________


MAGNETOMETER SURVEY RESULTS (UK, 2000)


Forwarded from Colin Andrews:


MAGNETOMETER SURVEY RESULTS

COLIN ANDREWS - 2000, Milton Farm

Dr. Jean-Noel Aubren has finished his preliminary analysis of
my magnetometer survey carried out in a crop marking at Milton
Farm, near Pewsey, Wiltshire during 2000.

Scientists who have looked at the results so far believe them to
be significant and more work is planned DURING 2002.

You can view the results at:

http://www.aviation-uk.com/andrews/complete.htm





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:48:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:02:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:54:34 EST
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:31:07 -0500
 >Subject: The Rendlesham Revelation!

Tim wrote:

 >Matthews said that he was convinced that many of the stories
 >regarding aliens and crashed craft that emerged in East Anglia
 >in January 1980, in some cases before the Halt Memorandum was
 >written, were part of a deliberate smokescreen put in place by
 >elements associated with both the nuclear industry (security)
 >and the MOD.

Tim,

This premise surely falls at several obstacles.

Firstly, there is that copious, documented evidence of those
perceived 'UFO' events which occurred during the early hours of
26th December and the night/early morning of 27th/28th.

These 'stories' were borne of experiences - five of which are
recorded in the statements Halt requested from Burroughs,
Cabansag, Penniston, Buran and Chandler at the beginning of
January 1981.

We also have numerous accounts from such as Chris Armold - his
26th December, approximately 0400 call to the local police is
documented on their records, as was Halt's query to Eastern
Radar at 0325 on 28 December, etc.

The 'UFO' perception existed at ground zero - it's long proven
this was never an added 'smokescreen' afterwards.

Secondly, how do we therefore equate the observations of
'strange lights' within Rendlesham forest, or Halt's ['two
nights' later] 'beams of light' being direct onto the base
complex for a couple of hours, etc. with a 'leak' at Sizewell?

This does seem to exemplify so many 'Rendlesham' claims - it's
announced that someone says 'x' happened, whilst another
declares 'y' occurred, then we have a new story from 'z', yet
there's no attempt to explain why none of these agree with the
previous evidence from 'a', 'b', 'c' and 'd'... which is
frequently the exact opposite.

Thirdly... the recently released MoD documentation proves there
was no 'cover up', in any respect.


 >Matthews particularly concentrated upon stories generated by a
 >"mystery" character, Steve Roberts, who contacted Rendlesham
 >researchers Dot Street and Brenda Butler at the time and was the
 >first to spread what proved to be disinformation of the worst
 >sort.

Presumably, you do know that 'Steve Roberts' is a pseudonym.

I'm not sure why he would be regarded as 'mysterious' - he was a
friend of Brenda's beforehand. The background is explained in
'Skycrash', by Jenny Randles, Brenda Butler and Dot Street.

According to Larry Warren, Steve's real name was Danny. During
discussions with Larry, I mentioned: "On 2 January 1981, an
airman friend of Brenda Butler's first broke the story of a UFO
which had crashed in Rendlesham Forest. In 'Skycrash', he was
given the pseudonym of 'Steve Roberts'."

Larry confirmed in response:

[some material deleted for now - James]

"But sadly, Danny was the A Flight Desk Sgt. for Law Enforcement
and did not witness the three night UFO incident".

Validating that Larry Warren did know 'Steve Roberts', this is
an extract from that pivotal May 13, 1997 'Microsoft Network'
online interview, under the auspices of 'Project: watchfire',
when Salley Rayl asked of Halt:

RAYL: Questions coming in about Larry Warren. What is your
opinion overall of Larry Warren's version of what happened as
written up in 'Left at Eastgate'?

HALT: Well, I felt kind of sad when I read the book. It's sort
of Larry Warren's, how shall I say, his life. A lot of
misfortune. I think Larry Warren has either relived a fantasy so
many times that he sincerely believes it or he's been meddled
with. By that, I mean hypnosis, drugs or whatever. I think he
may have been a lightening rod and drawn a lot of attention and
something may have happened to him. I don't know for a fact. And
he's admitted this to me. He and I have talked a couple of
times.

RAYL: We received an e-mail earlier in the day from a fellow by
the name of James Easton who lives in Scotland and apparently
has been researching this case during recent months. He said
that he had an almost two hour long trans-Atlantic phone
conversation with a new witness to some of the events. He said
he's not strictly a new witness. It's just that he's now come
forward. One thing that he mentioned and a question that I would
like to pass on to you is why have there been variances in the
dates given for both incidents? Your memo claims that the dates
were on the evening, early morning of the 26th, 27th and 28th,
29th of December, respectively. But elsewhere, you know, the
dates have been given as 25 to 26 and 29 to 30, he says. So why,
why are there differences in those dates?

HALT: Well, I tried to go back and recover the police blotter
and the security blotter think I mentioned to you earlier to re-
affirm the dates. Keep in mind, I wrote the memo several weeks
later. And it was not a really important memo. The date was not
critical. The critical portion was, you know, what happened and
are you interested? And how about getting involved and let's
investigate this. It's possible that I, I put the date down
wrong. But I don't believe so. I tried to verify later and the
police blotters had been taken from repository, probably by a,
how shall I say, curiosity seeker...

RAYL: Hmm.

HALT: ...but I don't know that for a fact.

[...]

RAYL: [...] He said that Warren was originally repeating stories
of alien contact that were circulating and were, which later
admitted by the source, a fellow, a pseudonym given, Steve
Robert...?

HALT: Uh huh.

RAYL: ...to have been a deliberate fabrication. So, apparently,
this fellow, Steve Roberts which is a pseudonym, went out and
told this story and then later said it was a complete
fabrication and now is saying that Larry Warren just picked up
the story. Do you know anything about that? Does that make sense
to you?

HALT: That individual I'd rather not reveal his name since he
doesn't want it revealed worked in the back office with Larry
Warren in the security police squadron and was closely
associated with him. I know who that person is.

RAYL: And did he tell you that he had deliberately fabricated
stories and that Larry picked up on them?

HALT: No. He didn't tell me that personally. I heard that
second- hand.

RAYL: Okay. But you have heard this before. This is not a...

HALT: Oh, my yes. It's no surprise.

RAYL: ...this is not new news to you?

HALT: I've listened to many of Larry Warren's tapes. He goes
around the country. He's on the, how shall I say, the talk
circuit? And, and I, I've, I have half a dozen of them and I've
listened to them several times and the story changes. It keeps
getting embellished and, and the book is even different. So,
what can I say? [END OF EXTRACT]


This also contains Halt's critical insight, replying to my
question, why the dates in his memo to the MoD might be wrong.

They are of course now proven to be and we further realise from
the MoD's recently released 'Rendlesham file' how they were
oblivious to the correct dates until Ian Ridpath informed them
years later.


 >Tim also called into question the role of Jenny Randles who, it
 >emerged, wrote letters to the MOD in 1983 and 1984, now in his
 >possession...

Isn't it true that in Jenny's 1987 publication, 'UFO Conspiracy'
[pages 197-9], the contents of these letters were detailed some
14 years ago?

 >...offering to assist the MOD in terms of its "public relations
 >position", to help educate the public that there was "no UFO
 >cover up" and much, much more besides.

Clearly Jenny was, as such evidence reiterates, ahead of some
colleagues in perceiving the true perspective.

How many years later before Nick Pope, commenting in what is a
recent, fundamentally revealing internal memo, implored the MoD
should do exactly the same?

As Jenny didn't have the benefit of Pope's 'inside knowledge',
she must have been an astute judge. And she is also of course
now proven to have been absolutely correct.


 >Her private letters to the MOD and public statements were, he
 >said, seriously at odds with each other. He said he intended to
 >publish the Randles letters, in their entirety, at some point
 >next week.

The material 'in your possession' is readily available, and
freely so from Jenny herself. As it has been before now, perhaps
worth contemplating why there hasn't been a rush to publish.

Perhaps, outwith those who have historically 'crossed swords'
with Jenny, it's palpable this was of underwhelming interest and
zero relevance.

Whatever this reflects on, it certainly won't be Jenny Randles,
or the standards in 'ufology' which she accomplished, over so
many years, more than anyone.

Regrettably, it's increasingly evident that was ufology's zenith
and it's all been rapidly downhill since.

By the way, I understand that Max Burns, having served his time
for those drug dealing charges, is the featured speaker at
BUFORA's December lecture.


 >Tim added that an unusual, albeit genuine looking "hoax"
 >document, revealing information on a claimed "contact" scenario
 >involving alien beings "of 1 1/2 metres in height" and US Air
 >Force personnel, written on headed Ministry of Defence
 >notepaper, had made its way into the 150 page Rendlesham File
 >recently released to BUFOSC and others. The MOD, it emerged,
 >"had no idea" where the document came from, despite the fact
 >that it seems to have been internally generated.

This blatant hoax - are you sure it could be considered as being
on what seriously resembled 'headed Ministry of Defence
notepaper'?

A copy of this letter has been available for several years and I
recall the MoD ridiculed it as a hoax long time ago.

It's surprising you believe this resembles something that "seems
to have been internally generated".


 >Was this document used to mislead UFO researchers back in the
 >early 1980s or was the information contained therein a template
 >for subsequent disinformation? It would seem so...

No, you might want to check the facts about this again. I don't
think you'll find anyone was fooled by it, at the time.


 >All in all, there is much to research and many new leads to
 >follow. Tim Matthews is not claiming to have anything like all
 >the answers but this new information requires us to reconsider
 >the events of December 1980.'

There is evidently nothing therein which isn't unsubstantiated or
perhaps requires some further examination of available facts.


On the point that we do have to explain why pieces of the puzzle
fit together and equally rationalise if they don't, a classic
example pertaining to any 'UFO' case is in fact 'Rendlesham' and
the typically wild tales which primarily emerge when a claimed
witness is 'hypnotised'. In Rendlesham, one setting for these is
a supposed, secret underground base complex where the *real*
gummit are in cahoots with aliens.

Great story, but no surprise that even Col. Halt refutes there
was an underground site. Check out the CD-ROM [available from
FUFOR's web site] of his lecture at Prince Georges Community
College, in August 1997. Halt explains that he would definitely
have known about an underground complex and it simply didn't
exist.

How many also realise the USAF did in fact, many years ago, put
in writing that there were no underground facilities at either
RAF Bentwaters, or, RAF Woodbridge [in a written reply to Mark
Birdsall, of 'UFO Magazine' (UK)].

Fair enough, solving this part of the puzzle is child's play.
The 'UFO cover up' evidence doesn't get much more incongruous or
absurd; how can we have the AFOSI, witnesses being terrorised,
MJ-12, aliens and spaceships all located in a place which didn't
actually exist...!


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk

Join the 'UFO Research List' or read discussions at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

             Re: Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters?

From: Wayne Sallee <Jonalgiers@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:55:16 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:35:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters?

 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:55:50 -0500
 >From: Center for Psychology and Social Change <info@centerchange.org>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Chicago Newspaper Article On Alien Encounters?

 >Dear List,

 >If anyone in the Chicago area sees an article on alien
 >encounters in their newspaper this week, would you please let us
 >know?

<snip>

There's the Tribune, Sun-Times, Daily Herald, and Southtown
covering multiple areas. Many of the suburban papers run only
once or twice a week, i.e., the Oak Lawn Star. There are also
independent weeklies here; The Reader is the biggest, also Windy
City Times. Try going to newsgroups.com, look up Illinois,
Chicago is in Cook County if you need to search by county.

I've never sent a post before, but I'll gladly follow through if
I read anything.

Wayne Allen Sallee
Burbank, Illinois
jonalgiers@aol.com

"War would end if the dead could return."
                         --Steven Baldwin







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:35:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:37:39 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection


 >>Source: Scientific American

 >>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>More Baloney Detection

 >>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>Part II

 >>By Michael Shermer

 >>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

Hola Laroo,

You propose:

 >How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >nobody beats me to it:
 >
 >* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

Yes.
Likelihood: I'll raise you 9/10's of a percentage point to, 99.9%

 >* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

A resounding yes! My reason for saying so: they've dragged my
ass out of my house. Through a wall one time, through the
ceiling on another occasion.

"They" (whoever/whatever) have a unique way of declaring their
presence that I'd be "dumb" to forget or to deny. :)

If the Universe banged on _your_ front door... would you open
it?


Regards,

John Velez
Poll respondent







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

               Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:48:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:40:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Conventional Wisdom For Feebs, Dweebs, And NCC's
 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 05:39:16 -0600

 >Conventional Wisdom for Feebs, Dweebs, and NCC's

<snip>

Hi Alfred,

You wrote:

 >UFOs are real, they have always been real, and they will
 >continue to be real It is the establishment's concern for a
 >convenient status quo that makes the _arbitrary_ decision to
 >dismiss the ufological as a province of gullible fools, weak
 >minded new-agers, and credulous revisionists. It is not the
 >current crop of NCC's that keeps UFOs in an informational limbo;
 >they're a logical reaction to that suspicious informational
 >void... It is, rather, the mechanism of a duplicitous mainstream
 >that keeps them in ubiquitous shadows for perfectly predicable
 >reasons all its own.

And the real shame is; their 'program' works!

My rebellious and truth speaking friend, we're not dealing with
amateurs. The 'puppeteers' are consummate dream weavers. If
there is ever to be any hope of freedom from the Maya that they
spin, it resides in the 'inherent' human quality that; once a
certain level of awareness is attained by each individual, the
'sleeper' automatically, (as a direct function of accumulated
knowledge/mental energy) awakens. It is the almost mechanical
manifestation of that aspect of Mind/consciousness that
hopefully will free enough people _to make a difference_ from
their mental shackles. In the meantime, you just keep on trying
to raise their awareness about it. It's about all that anyone
can do under the circumstances.

I always enjoy reading the stuff that comes out of you after
you've gone for a deep dive in that ocean of mind and soul of
yours. You do _good_, and many times, 'spiritual level' work
Kemosabe. ;)

If only more folks had the 'ears to hear'.

Warm regards,


John Velez







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                           FT - The MOD UFO Files

From: Mark Pilkington <mark.pilkington@ifgmags.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:07:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:57:33 -0500
Subject: FT - The MOD UFO Files


UpDates readers may be interested in this new article by Dr
David Clark, available exclusively at www.forteantimes.com

BRITAIN'S SECRET 'X-FILES' REVEALED
50-year-old UK Ministry of Defence UFO files made public at last.

http://www.forteantimes.com/exclusive/DS7.shtml


All best

Mark
-------------------------------------

Mark Pilkington
Reporter/Web/Reviews
Fortean Times
I Feel Good Ltd
9 Dallington St
London
EC1V OBQ

mark.pilkington@ifgmags.com
020 7687 7004







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 21 Nov 2001 08:25:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:30:20 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>Source: Scientific American

 >>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>More Baloney Detection

 >>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>Part II

 >>By Michael Shermer

 >>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >>When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >>"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
 >>pseudoscience.

 ><snip>

 >>7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
 >>tools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
 >>others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
 >>can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
 >>Intelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
 >>with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
 >>must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
 >>claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
 >>with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
 >>us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
 >>belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
 >>experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
 >>sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
 >>alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
 >>photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
 >>(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
 >>eyewitnesses).

 >While Shermer put in no qualifiers here, he is apparently
 >stating that:

 >1) The vast majority of SETI people proceed from the null
 >hypothesis that there is no intelligent life anywhere out there.

 >2) The overwhelming majority of ufologists take the position
 >that ETI do indeed exist, AND that the ETs have come here to
 >visit us.

 >I'm sure this belief/position/opinion is taken by a great many
 >ufologists, but I would not count myself among them.

 >Assuming ET has discovered Earth somehow, and being so advanced,
 >would send intelligent robotic/cybernetic probes; baffling as
 >those might be.

 >Others would argue for beings or machines from "other
 >dimensions", or perhaps time-travel and so forth. A few would
 >argue for religious phenomena, but lets not get into that.

 >How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >nobody beats me to it:

 >* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

Yes, with a 99.999% likelihood

 >* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 From other planets maybe, not stars. I vote yes.

Bill H.








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                             As The World Turns

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:50:59 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:22:56 -0500
Subject: As The World Turns


A little levity yet again, if Errol permits. And with the
levity, a wish for a happy Birdday to all who celebrate it as
Thanksgiving. To those who do not, pray for peace where you are.
To see your beloved country attacked, your flag desicrated and
your people murdered by the thousands is probably the worst
thing which can happen in your world. And of the families who
are left behind, there is no joy. Not for a long, long time.

Last, before the news, a note on Cookie, my cousin. To those who
wrote, thank you. She has sixteen screws in her arm, along with
three plates. She is not able to ambulate that arm but will
likely have limited use of it after therapy.

And now, the news. Canal Street mourns the death of an Icon.

Dear Friends,

It is with the saddest heart I pass on the following: Please
join me in remembering a great icon - the veteran Pillsbury
spokesman. The Pillsbury Doughboy died yesterday of a yeast
infection and complications from repeated pokes in the belly. He
was 71.

Doughboy was buried in a lightly greased coffin. Dozens of
celebrities turned out to pay their respects, including Mrs.
Butterworth, Hungry Jack, the California Raisins, Betty Crocker,
the Hostess Twinkies, and Captain Crunch.

The gravesite was piled high with flours. As long-time friend,
Aunt Jemima delivered the eulogy, describing Doughboy as a man
who never knew how much he was kneaded.

Doughboy rose quickly in show business, but his later life was
filled with turnovers. He was not considered a very "smart"
cookie, wasting much of his dough on half-baked schemes. Despite
being a little flaky at times, he even still, as a crusty old
man, was considered a roll model for millions.

Toward the end it was thought he would rise again, but alas, he
was no tart. Doughboy is survived by his wife, Play Dough; two
children, John Dough and Jane Dough; plus they had one in the
oven. He is also survived by his elderly father, Pop Tart.

The funeral was held at 3:50 for about twenty minutes.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:24:20 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg


 >>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>>Part II

 >>>By Michael Shermer

<snip>

 >How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>nobody beats me to it:

 >>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

So close to 100% that the difference is not likely measurable...

 >>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

If they're 100% somewhere, then they might just as likely be
here, and given the historical evidence, the photographic
evidence, the anecdotal evidence, the physical evidence, and the
personal evidence...(?) I'm inexplicably compelled to vote...
uh, yes. <chuh!>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                   Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:24:08 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:26:23 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection


 >>Source: Scientific American

 >>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>More Baloney Detection

 >>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>Part II

 >>By Michael Shermer

 >>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >>When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >>"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
 >>pseudoscience.

 ><snip>

 >>7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
 >>tools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
 >>others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
 >>can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
 >>Intelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
 >>with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
 >>must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
 >>claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
 >>with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
 >>us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
 >>belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
 >>experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
 >>sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
 >>alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
 >>photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
 >>(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
 >>eyewitnesses).
 >>Snip

Dear Wilbur and Larry, also List and EBK,

 >How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >nobody beats me to it:

 >* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote?

____Same as yours, Mr. L _____

 >* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >Seems dumb to me, see above.

Your vote? _________

Why dumb? Presuppose these dudes are the explorer type, or maybe
like to infiltrate life forms on various planets in order to
improve the breed, or for that matter, their own breed using our
DNA. Who are we to assume human terms for what may likely be a
very high form of life compared with our own?

Let's do a "What if!" What if there was a way beyond our own
knowledge of physics, with which to span the distances sans the
need for long trips? And what if that method required small
amounts of energy? On that assumption, which is not at all a
wild assumption, wouldn't _YOU_ go from here to Plaeides to see
the people? IF you answer "no!" I just don't have any faith in
your brew. Try something donestic.

 >(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
 >questions.

 >Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >UFO people would.

Yeah, well, just what the hell is a "UFO people" anyway, Larry?
It almost sounds as if we are a cult of nerds and nitwits, and
worse.

Allow me to answer for me at least. A UFO people is someone who
allows for the possibility that we've been visited. Someone who
has the imagination to at least perceive the level of
attribution of truth of those who claim to have seen them. Not
counting the really crazy loonies who think they've been
abducted by space aliens, God help their souls.

Dammit, Larry, this one got my juices going. I am a little
surprised at the tone of the post toastie. I _know_ you are
someone with an open mind. Heck, it was you who invented the
phrase, "Pair of Dimes" and without Gripple even. So what's all
this negativity about?

No one has more doubts about what is in my memory than I. And
even thru all of that doubt, there is not one iota of evidence
that anything _else_ could have happened than what I recall did
happen.

 >PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
 >as that might seem. -LH

It does seem odd. Having seen Squirmin Sherm in the flesh in NY
and witnessed the veritable _joy_ he has when he makes fun of
us, I can tell you that anything he has to say, even if true,
comes from a mind hell bent on making fools out of all of us who
have sightings of perceive abduction. That man should seek help.

Now for the really important news. Tomorrow I shall break bread at
mom and dad. And at 89 years of age, I want you all to know that
my dad makes the best martini the world has ever known. Aha! you
say, the man boasteth verily too much.

Well, just aks Lehmberg. Lehmberg, sir Alfred of the word and
rhyme, support me here Bubba. The world is waiting for your
truth as to the taste and strength of Pop's martini. Don't make
me hang out here all alone. Tell the truth. Or I shall not send
you his elixir as promised.

As I said, tomorrow I shall have not one, nut TWO of dad's
martinis. And I shall discount any and all sightings, abductions
or that sort of ilk, until at least 48 hours past the falling
down in joy stage of inebriatation.

Happy Birdday to all, and to all, a safe flight.

Jim Mortellaro






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                 Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:08:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:28:27 -0500
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey


 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
 >Subject: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:46:47 +0000

 >CCCRN NEWS
 >The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

 >http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

 >November 20, 2001





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 05:18:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:36:04 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:35:10 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>>Part II

 >>>By Michael Shermer

 >>>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >Hola Laroo,

 >You propose:

 >>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>nobody beats me to it:

 >>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

 >Yes.
 >Likelihood: I'll raise you 9/10's of a percentage point to, 99.9%

 >>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 >A resounding yes! My reason for saying so: they've dragged my
 >ass out of my house. Through a wall one time, through the
 >ceiling on another occasion.

 >"They" (whoever/whatever) have a unique way of declaring their
 >presence that I'd be "dumb" to forget or to deny. :)

 >If the Universe banged on _your_ front door... would you open
 >it?


Ah! Now we got two votes in, and only one dimpled chad, the "in
the flesh" bit.

I can certainly understand your reasoning!

I'm wondering however, if the critters seen are genuinely
biological as you, I, the dog and the cat are; or whether they
are robotic or cybernetic (not necessarily clanky-metallic mind
you) beings.

Automata like that might even be better suited to the purposes
of "exploring" this planet and everything on it, in gory detail,
if that is indeed the program.

Sufficiently advanced, the line between living and non-living
things could become quite blurred, as least as seen by us.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - -






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:02:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:40:11 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>Source: Scientific American

 >>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>More Baloney Detection

 >>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>Part II

 >>By Michael Shermer

 >>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >>When exploring the borderlands of science, we often face a
 >>"boundary problem" of where to draw the line between science and
 >>pseudoscience.

 ><snip>

 >>7. Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and
 >>tools of research, or have these been abandoned in favor of
 >>others that lead to the desired conclusion? A clear distinction
 >>can be made between SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
 >>Intelligence) scientists and UFOlogists. SETI scientists begin
 >>with the null hypothesis that ETIs do not exist and that they
 >>must provide concrete evidence before making the extraordinary
 >>claim that we are not alone in the universe. UFOlogists begin
 >>with the positive hypothesis that ETIs exist and have visited
 >>us, then employ questionable research techniques to support that
 >>belief, such as hypnotic regression (revelations of abduction
 >>experiences), anecdotal reasoning (countless stories of UFO
 >>sightings), conspiratorial thinking (governmental cover-ups of
 >>alien encounters), low-quality visual evidence (blurry
 >>photographs and grainy videos), and anomalistic thinking
 >>(atmospheric anomalies and visual misperceptions by
 >>eyewitnesses).

Has Shermer really not noticed all the claims of loads of
civilizations based on the Drake equation? None of these claims
involve any evidence that there is ETI out there, but the claims
are made anyway.

Clearly it is the SETI (Silly Effort To Investigate) cultists
who have abandoned the accepted rules of reason and tools of
research. They have almost completely ignored the scientific
data about flying saucers. Check their references. Still they
make many proclamations about them. They have almost completed
neglected the many scientific publications about interstellar
travel by aeronautics and astronautics professionals, though it
is a subject about which they seem to have no professional
knowledge, and about which they make frequent proclamations.
They make proclamations about how aliens would act, despite
having no professional knowledge of the motivation and behavior
of earthlings, no less aliens. They seem totally ignorant of how
security works. I have done a piece showing how using Shermer's
first 5 rules for testing pseudoscience, it is easy to show that
proclamations about UFOs by Asimov, Bova, Sagan, Menzel, and
USAF Sec. Donald Quarles are clearly pseudoscience.

 >While Shermer put in no qualifiers here, he is apparently
 >stating that:

 >1) The vast majority of SETI people proceed from the null
 >hypothesis that there is no intelligent life anywhere out there.

 >2) The overwhelming majority of ufologists take the position
 >that ETI do indeed exist, AND that the ETs have come here to
 >visit us.

Careful here Larry. Who says they are here "to Visit us"? I did
one paper listing 26 reasons for coming to Planet Earth. If I am
looking for gold in them thar hills, it doesn't mean I am there
to visit the prairie dogs.

 >I'm sure this belief/position/opinion is taken by a great many
 >ufologists, but I would not count myself among them.

 >Assuming ET has discovered Earth somehow, and being so advanced,
 >would send intelligent robotic/cybernetic probes; baffling as
 >those might be.

Try doing some homework about interstellar travel to nearby
stars. The shuttle goes around Earth in 90 minutes. Magellan's
ship did it in a couple of years. Nuclear Fusion rockets can
kick particles out the back end having 10 million times as much
energy per particle as in a chemical rocket .

 >Others would argue for beings or machines from "other
 >dimensions", or perhaps time-travel and so forth. A few would
 >argue for religious phenomena, but lets not get into that.

 >How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >nobody beats me to it:

 >* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

My vote is YES 99.9%, only because there is so much evidence
that aliens are coming to Earth, not because of grandiose
theories based on a total lack of relevant data such as the
Drake equation which also assumes there has been no interstellar
travel and that aliens, if they exist, use radio (or lasers) for
communication:. A pretty silly assumption roughly equivalent to
saying slide rules are the most advanced type of portable
computer.

 >* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

Definitely, yes. There still people flying from Los Angeles to
Australia though telephones, faxes, and the internet are much
faster, cheaper and easier.Kind of dumb but real.37 light years
at 99.99% of the speed of light only takes 6 months pilot time.

 >(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
 >questions.

 >Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >UFO people would.

It seems a pity that the SETI Cultists can't bother to look at
the UFO data or the interstellar travel data. One might hope
that they would preface their remarks with "This is only a
personal opinion, since I have not studied any of the relevant
data which a professional opinion would require"

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

 >PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
 >as that might seem. -LH

Shermer does give some tests which when applied to the
proclamations of SETI Cultists and other UFO debunkers clearly
indicate they are pseudoscience.

Stanton Friedman







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 21

                        Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:43:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

IT'S A WONDERFUL WORLD WITH SKIES OF BLUE AND CLOUDS OF WHITE
AND EVEN SOME UFOs. They have been reported in New York, New
Jersey, North Carolina, Georgia Wisconsin, Missouri, Texas,
Arizona, Idaho, Oregon/Washington, California, Canada,
Argentina, and Chili.

GIVE THANKS: Our world changed on September 11, I ask for your
prayers for the sick who write us and our country and the world.
Give thanks with a grateful heart; give thanks to the Holy one
who gave his Son. And now let the weak say I'm strong and the
poor say, I am rich for what the Lord has done. This is a
decisive time of hatred and war, at Thanksgiving its time to
pray, give thanks, and reflect. Prayer can heal sickness and
help you personally a great deal. The Bible says, "If my people
who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and
seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear
from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and remember there is someone out
there watching.

ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
civilization."

PRIME MINISTER BLAIR REVEALS EVIDENCE AGAINST AL QAEDA

LONDON -- The British government has announced that in an
unbroadcast video tape made last month, Osama bin Laden declared
that his al Qaeda network "instigated" the attacks on the World
Trade Center and Pentagon. Bin Laden's video states, "if
avenging the killing of our people is terrorism, let history be
a witness that we are terrorists." Bin Laden made the video on
October 20 for secret distribution to al Qaeda members, but
British intelligence learned of its contents. Prime Minister
Tony Blair said in an address to Parliament that Bin Laden
admitted the attacks, saying, "It is what we instigated, for a
while, in self-defense. And it was revenge for our people killed
in Palestine and Iraq. Bush and Blair don't understand any
language but the language of force. Every time they kill us, we
will kill them, so the balance of terror can be achieved." The
British government did not release the video. It is interesting
to note that during Congressional Iran Contra Hearings fifteen
years ago, Lt. Col. Oliver North warned that the terrorist Osama
Bin Laden had threatened him and his family and in his opinion,
"He is the most evil person alive that I know of."

LEONID METEOR STORM!

Sunday morning I was one of many who watched the Leonid meteor
storm light up the early morning sky at 5:00 AM. It was the best
show in some 35 years. There were hundreds of meteorites making
the most exciting display, I have ever seen. A combination of
clear skies and no moon made for a great show.

NEW YORK CIGAR

PLEASANTVILLE -- On November 11, 2O01, at 11:20 PM the witness
saw a very large cigar shaped object traveling very fast. The
witness reports, "I was looking at the sky while my dogs got
their nightly exercise. Very dim lights traveling across the sky
caught my peripheral vision. There were 4 or 5 of them that came
from a long object traveling south very quickly at about 60
degrees above the horizon. It was silent. I could see the
lights for 4 or 5 seconds then lost it in the glare from the
Ford dealership lights. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, NUFORC
www.UFOCENTER.com Reporting Hotline:(206) 722-3000

NEW JERSEY CIGAR SIMILAR EARLIER REPORT

CARNEYS POINT -- At 12:35 PM, a veteran police officer and
private pilot, accompanied by a legal professional saw a
brownish black cylinder shaped object flew over their vehicle at
250 feet altitude on May 18, 1996. The sighting lasted five
seconds before it vanished. One 50 feet long cylinder shaped
object, dull brownish black in color, with a metal tail
structure, crossed S.W. to N.E. across dual highway at moderate
speed over our vehicle. The sighting lasted about five seconds,
after which object vanished. The leading edges of structure
appeared to display the dull pattern typical of "re-entry burn"
on the space shuttle. Local weather verified to be: Bar: 29.99,
Visibility: 2 miles, ceiling 800 feet, Temp: 66 Deg. F, Dew
Point: 63 F, Hum: 90%, Wind: SSE 6 mph. Thanks to Peter B.
Davenport, NUFORC, www.Ufocenter.com.

NORTH CAROLINA FLYING TRIANGLE

SHILOH -- On November 11, 2001 at 6:20 PM a large triangular
shaped object with large blue lights suddenly made a quick
u-turn and hovered a mile away. The witness reports, "My husband
and I were driving and as we approached an intersection near a
small airport. There was a large triangular shaped object very
close to the ground slowly moving over the intersection. We
drove toward the object and as we got closer to about 30 feet
away, we could see three large blue lights (one in each corner).
It suddenly rose up and made a fast u-turn. In less than five
seconds it was gone, quickly heading the other way. About three
miles from the intersection, my husband and I looked back and it
seemed to be a hovering bright light at or near the airport. The
strangest thing about the whole ordeal was there was no sound at
all. There was a car about two car-lengths in front of us who I
am sure saw it too. Believe me, you couldn't miss it. Thanks to
Peter B. Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting Center
www.UFOCENTER.com

OKLAHOMA FLASHING RED LIGHT

CHICKASAW STATE PARK, SULPHUR -- On November 10, 2001, from the
south the witness observed what appeared to be a small, round,
white light moving fairly slowly in all directions at 9:35 PM.
At first it was behind trees but then it increased it's altitude
and moved above the trees. The witness thought the light was no
more than 100 yards away. Another witness thought it was no
closer than a mile. At first its movement was slow and steady,
moving toward the west while traveling up and down. It looked
more like it was floating as apposed to flying. After a minute
or two, it picked up speed moving toward the west or northwest.
At this point, I grabbed my binoculars and lost visual contact
for a few seconds. When I found it in my binoculars, it was
traveling at a high rate of speed and had a flashing red light
on its tail, like an airplane. One of the witnesses confirmed
that I was indeed still observing the same object. It now moved
and looked like an airplane. I couldn't see wings or anything
like that but like I said, it now had a flashing red light on
its "tail." When the red light would blink, the front portion of
the object appeared to have a slight tint of yellow to it. I
noticed that I could hear a jet in the far distance but have no
idea if it was coming from an actual airplane or from this
object. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, Director National UFO
Reporting Center www.UFOCENTER.com Reporting Hotline: (206)
722-3000

GEORGIA ABDUCTIONS

Researcher John Thompson has some thoughts on abductions
related to the new Terrorist situation. One of the possibilities
why so many abductions have taken place across America during
the last decade is to weaken the resolve and resistance of
America. As you know, I've advocated for a long time that
abductions are really about "mind-control" and not the fanciful
extraterrestrial kidnappings that many entertain. We have to
assume that along with the general population an equal
percentage of our nation's leaders have been abducted and
"conditioned" over the years. Listening to recent talk radio
shows some callers have expressed outrage that our response to
the 09/11/01 slaughter has been far too politically correct.
Coalition building and sensitivity to concerns of Muslims have
over-ridden a true and strict military retaliation against the
Islamic killers responsible for much of the world's terrorism
over the last quarter-of-a-century. Diligent mind control and
"programming" applied to selected individuals in the United
States could do much to defeat America and the West. While
abductions have occurred worldwide, their frequency and
dispersion seems to pale in comparison to the estimated millions
of Americans that have been abducted. Indeed, there is almost no
data to suggest that abductions are numerous in the Third
World. The target of the abductors seems to be more of where the
real power of the world resides: America and Western Europe.
While culture, language difficulties, and lack of investigators
in the Third World may keep reports of abductions low, I
personally have heard of  none from the Modest and South-central
Asia while hearing of some in Africa, which is far more
improvised. America is the leader of the non-Muslim world. To
many Muslims, America is the enemy and the leader of the
infidels; that is, non-believers. It may well be that we are
engaged in a grand Crusade and abductions are simply another
weapon being employed by demonic entities to give an edge to an
otherwise weaker enemy. Thanks to Researcher John Thompson
gingerjohn@peoplepc.com

MISSOURI SILVER CIGAR UFO

KANSAS CITY -- On November 10, 2001, James A. Tutt Jr. saw a
silver cigar shaped UFO flying over East 87th Street toward the
Kansas City limits near the over and under pass area of I-435.
It was 11:00 AM, and the sky was clear. James was using his
powered + binoculars and noticed an object standing still east
of him at about 25 to 30,000 feet altitude. The object continued
hovering over the I-435 until he lost sight of it. The cigar
was silver color and may have had fins on it, but it was too
high to tell. This is not the first time that a similar object
was seen. On September 27, 2001, there was a sighting of another
cigar shaped craft with several fins on its side. The craft was
the size of a small house. Thanks to James Allen Tutt Jr
tutt64110@hotmail.com MUFON -Field Investigator kcmo area
id#7606 and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

TEXAS LIGHTS

HOUSTON -- F Beau Spikes reports he and his wife saw
unexplainable lights in the sky each night from October 30, to
November 4, 2001, on several nights, two other friends also saw
them. The friends were located five miles away nearer to Spring,
Texas. We saw many light patterns from it with all colors. It
would hover from side to side and up and down. We saw it for 30
or 45 minutes then went to bed, at 11:00 PM The second night we
saw it again, 35 degrees up a little to the south from previous
night. We watched for 2.5 hours, until 2:00 AM. The third night
there was only one; I observed it from 12:00 to 12:30 AM. Fourth
night there were three UFOs a little more south in a pattern
like a check mark. They took turns being "active." We watched
from 7:30 to 9:30 PM. In addition, my friends my neighbor too
had binoculars so I could see the colors as little bit better.
There were brilliant colors of every shade, but mostly blue,
purple, and green. Last night was a full moon too, and these
"devices" still were plainly visible but the stars were not. We
called the local FOX weather desk; they reported no meteors or
weather balloons etc. These sightings in my opinion are
definitely mechanical in nature. I don't know what they are but
stars don't jiggle and bobble, stars don't appear to flash
symmetric and lit appendages with alternating colors. Stars
don't often change shape and have straight-line emissions and
stars or planets don't change patterns in a group within a
couple of hours. This is why my wife and I were convinced we
were  watching something bizarre. Seeing that they appear (from
my perspective) near a major international airport, I doubt it
would be foreign technology. Thanks to F Beau Spikes
(Beauknowz@yahoo.com) who writes, thanks for your reply, I would
like to be contacted by a MUFON investigator. In addition, I
have already entered a report at the form on the MUFON main
page.

ARLINGTON ALIEN ACCOUNT -- A college student worked in a paint
store frequented by a painter who claimed to have alien
encounters. He was a peculiar kind of guy who lived, alone, in a
small house outside the city limits. "He often talked about
being visited by beings from other planets and strange
futuristic technology that they had showed him and space ships
and the like. The painter and college student became friendly
as the painter began to talk about his leaving this earth to go
to live on another planet. They showed him all their strange
machines. The painter told the college student that he had no
family and that before he left this earth to go and live on
another planet, he wanted to deed his house and land to him.
The student told him (with tongue in cheek) that, "sure," before
he left for outer space, he could deed his house to him. The
painter transferred his house, and land and all his assets to my
business associate. In addition, within a matter of days from
doing so, the painter called him and told him to come to a
certain field on his property at a certain time that very
evening. He told him that he would be leaving this earth with
the men from outer space tonight, never to return, and that the
student would be able to see him leave on the space ship if he
would be at the field at the appointed time. The student drove
up to the man's property, parked his car, and walked to the
particular field that the painter had specified. As he
approached, he could see a strange kind of green mist-like light
coming from behind the rise of earth ahead of him. When he
reached the edge of a berm he saw a saucer shaped craft hovering
just a couple of feet or so above the ground and glowing green.
The painter appeared and looked over at him, and acknowledged
his presence with a wave. An opening appeared in the saucer and
the painter entered.

The craft shot straight up in the air and in a matter of only
seconds was a bright dot that just disappeared. After a while,
when he realized the painter was really not coming back, he and
his wife and children moved into the house that the painter had
deeded to him. They did not stay very long. He said, "You
wouldn't believe all the strange, eerie things that went on in
that house." He added that some of the technology (having to do
with computers and nanotechnology) that exists today are things
that the painter had told them about that seemed so far-fetched
at that time. He is a very no-nonsense kind of person, which
makes me believe his story even more. Talk at you later,
ufopi@aol.com (name removed) Mike_Harman @rocketmail.com

ARIZONA GOLD UFO

GLENDALE -- Rick reports seeing what appeared to him as a UFO
on November 6, 2001. He says, "I just witnessed the best thing
ever." I have never seen one before only read about them on
different sites. However, the object I saw at about 9: 25 PM,
was lower than most aircraft in the area and shooting across the
sky at a high rapid rate much faster than the aircraft here.
The object was round, the bottom looked like a reddish gold
color, no lights and no sound. I ran downstairs, from my
apartment, went to the parking lot, not 3 to 4 seconds later and
the object was gone. I read your site and other's and has had
many mixed feelings until now. Now, I myself have become a
believer. I thought you would like to know my story; I'm very
excited about the entire event and wanted to share this
extraordinary night. Thank you for your time. Thanks to Rick
Glendale at Eichbaum74, and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

IDAHO FLYING WING

NAMPA -- D. Kennedy reports a flying wing entered our line of
site as we were watching the Leonid meteor shower on November
18, 2001. It flew directly over us then off to the south at 2:45
AM. It made "NO" noise, and had "No" lights. There was a faint
temperature glow on the leading edge of the wing, tip to tip.
Altitude was impossible to tell. If it were higher than 5,000
feet the craft would have been extremely large. It did resemble
a B-2 Stealth bomber, but without the sharp angles. All the
edges were rounded, more like a boomerang. My wife observed it
as well. The color was dark, possibly black with a rounded
boomerang shaped flying wing with temperature glow on leading
edge of wing. The height and speed are unknown. The higher it
was? The larger and faster it would have been. Joe Trainor
writes, "Here's a sighting from Idaho. However, it sounds less
like a UFO than some sort of flight test of a prototype "flying
wing" aircraft of our U.S. Air Force. I was amused to see that
this event took place in Nampa. In 1883, this town was the site
of a very unusual Fortean event. A man named M.A. Kurz began
drilling a well, and the sump pump spit up a human figurine of
incalculable age from a depth of 300 feet below ground. Part of
the "doll" had begun to metamorphose, showing an age of hundreds
of thousands of years. Good luck with The UFO Store. Thanks to
Joe Trainor Masinaigan

CALIFORNIA DISC

Last Sunday, November 11, 2001, my mother and I saw a UFO. It
was about four minutes after seven when my mother called me out
of my room to our back porch. She pointed out an object that at
first looked like a bright star. Then it started to move very
slowly and we began to see more detail. There was a red intense
red aura type of light surrounding the object just enough to
make out a shape with binoculars. This thing was far away at
least a thousand feet up, and kind of a disc shape with a black
mass to it. It appeared then it would disappear for about 4 to 6
seconds. Then a red ball object came out of the lighted end and
seemed like it dropped like a flare after you shot in the sky. I
can tell I never been so excited I finally saw one after all
these years of looking in the sky. Thanks to RT

OREGON TV NEWS REPORTS ON UFOs

PORTLAND -- The 10 o'clock KPTV News reports on November 15,
2001, includes video film of alleged UFOs. -- The Pacific
Northwest is no stranger to the UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount
Adams, in south central Washington, has been a hub for UFO
activity. Mount Adams is home to what some call UFO's and others
call naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of
people have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives
near the mountain even claims to have contact with the
extraterrestrial beings that are behind the lights. When James
Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake, Washington, he
had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO flight path. He
and hundreds of other who frequent his 70-acre property near
the mountain believe the lights are UFO's. Gilliland has
recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange lights. Gilliland
also claims he has had direct contact with the inter-dimensional
spiritual beings who control what he calls light ships. "These
are very advanced beings technologically, spiritually we have
to rise to the occasion," said Gilliland. Others say the strange
lights are just natural occurring nocturnal geo-thermal lights
or satellites. OMSI planetarium director Jim Todd says the
images on James Gilliland's video look like ordinary satellites
to him. "I can understand their excitement cause they see
something moving across the stars. I've seen a lot of
satellites space station shuttle and their fun to watch they
really are," said Todd. More than 30 years ago, scientists from
around the country began documenting the strange light
phenomenon. In 1972, "The Investigation of Nocturnal Light
Phenomena at Toppensh, Washington" was released. The report
outlines several encounters, such as the following: "The light
moved so fast it gave the impression of a streak. It would
appear stationary for a moment and then almost instantaneously
appear some distance away." Now, over thirty years later, there
are still no clear answers to the mysterious lights, but
Gilliland does say the aliens have a message for all of
humanity. "We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our
environment, raise up, and lead a spiritual way of life." Thanks
to darkwynnter@att.net
http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=3D775291
rd

CANADA THREE CYLINDER UFOs

ONTARIO -- Paul wrote I told my father was visiting me last
week and I showed him the on line video of the Disclosure
seminar. He reminded me of his unexplained encounter he had.
This encounter happened a few years ago while he was working far
up in Northern Canada. He was a hydro station inspector. He
spent many nights awake looking at the skies and wolves.  He is
an amateur photographer and was looking to get shots of the
wolves feeding at night, anyway he was gazing at the perfectly
clear mid winter night, when he noticed three objects in the sky
that were quite high in elevation. They were side by side and
the middle object was longer then the outside two. The 3 objects
were cylindrical shaped, joined together by small joints, like
balls on a string. Then one of the outside objects split off,
flew a wide circle around the sky, and then shot off out of
sight. The middle larger object and the smaller object beside
turned lengthwise and seem to face end down towards him. They
had very bright lights. They held this position for a while then
separated and shot out of sight. He has never told anyone of his
encounter for fear of ridicule. He is a very honest person and
knows aircraft as he was flying in helicopters all the time in
the north. He does have a photo of the objects, which I have
seen and are amazing. We both firmly believe we are not alone,
how can you not with the billions of solar systems out there.
Its time for governments to admit it. Thanks to Paul Cook in
Toronto.

ARGENTINA STRANGE FAST STROBING LIGHTS

BUENOS AIRES -- An air of confusion and suspicion surrounds an
hour-long incident in the night skies over the South Atlantic
Argentine airspace. The Argentinean newspaper Clar=A1n, reports a
Lear Jet carrying Lt. Governor Daniel Gallo, encountered
unidentified bright flashing lights in the sky over Patagonia.
Piloted by commander Mariano Zalotti and copilot Mario Beban,
the aircraft had left Jorge Newbery Airfield at 20.50 hours,
November 12, and set course for the airport at R=A1o Grande. The
jet was traveling at a height of 10,000 meters when they saw a
nearby blinking lights in the darkness. The "estroboc=A2picas"
[strobe] lights appeared on the left side of their aircraft.
"Nevertheless, I never thought that it could be a foreign
military airplane invading our airspace," the three occupants of
the aircraft discounted the lights as being either a UFO and
theorized that they could have belonged instead to a British
aircraft, whose base is at Mount Pleasant, in the Falkland
Islands." When flying over the city of Commodore Rivadavia, 75
miles out to sea [Strait of Magellan G-fs], we observed for the
first time the flashing lights that followed a short distance,
flying the same map course to a height superior and of greater
speed", Commander Zalotti said later. "Then we flew at a
cruising speed of 900 kilometers per hour." A British Embassy
spokesman in Buenos Aires denied that it could have been an
aircraft from that country and described the claim by the
pilots as "speculation without sense." There was confirmation
that no other Argentinean aircraft had been flying in the area
at this time. Thanks to FarShhores@canada.com, Wilmar Caballero
Published: 11/14/01
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2001-11-14/p-02001.htm

CHILE UFO VIDEO TAPED

The following message was received by Inexplicata from Rodrigo
Cuadra Salazar of Chile's TOC (Tecnologia, OVNIS y Ciencia)
Channel 13 of the Catholic University of Chile broadcast a UFO
filmed by Eric Martinez, a member of the GEO group, on Saturday,
November 10, 2001. The UFO was filmed over the hills surrounding
the La Florida commune. A curious detail is that one object was
filmed by day, and another object was filmed at night. They
could be one and the same. " Thanks to Scott Corrales Institute
of Hispanic Ufology and INEXPLICATA--The Journal of Hispanic
Ufology

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come help
our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at
high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768
Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.
Regards, George Filer

The local Fire Station sign reads, "May the angels protect You!






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:01:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:38:15 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 21 Nov 2001 08:25:06 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,

<snip>


 >>While Shermer put in no qualifiers here, he is apparently
 >>stating that:

 >>1) The vast majority of SETI people proceed from the null
 >>hypothesis that there is no intelligent life anywhere out there.

 >>2) The overwhelming majority of ufologists take the position
 >>that ETI do indeed exist, AND that the ETs have come here to
 >>visit us.

<snip>

 >>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>nobody beats me to it:

 >>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

 >Yes, with a 99.999% likelihood

 >>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 >From other planets maybe, not stars. I vote yes.

 >Bill H.


Hello Bill: ( and thanks for voting! )

I meant planets orbiting other stars of course. So far votes are
3/3 for life elsewhere with high probabilities.

Its 2 to 1 against me for natural living beings from beyond
coming here in the flesh (or goo or whatever). Again, I stress
the perhaps subtle distinction between natives of some planet
way out there, and bio-engineered and/or cybernetic 'entities'
which might be sent instead.

I think Shermer's assertions were rash and simplistic. I wonder
how many SETI people feel that he is qualified to speak for them
as a group. Even if he were 'pro-UFO' I wouldn't want him
putting words in my mouth; not after that Baloney Detection
article in Scientific American .


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                               Spooky Physics!

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:29:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:25:29 -0500
Subject: Spooky Physics!


Hello all:

I found this article captivating. Its a tough read for some of
us, but give it a try.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if any solid part of the UFO
problem is ever solved, it will come from advances in our own
sciences, most especially physics.

- - - - -

Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:10:33 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE

The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 566 November 21, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
and James Riordon

HIDDEN OBJECTS REVEALED WITH QUANTUM HOLOGRAPHY.

Second sight and remote viewing are terms used to explain
charlatans' supposed psychic ability to see hidden objects in
terms of pseudoscientific gibberish.

Quantum holography, on the other hand, is a method firmly
grounded in modern physics that permits the imaging of hidden
objects with entangled photons. Of the quantum entanglement
phenomena that Einstein described as "spooky action at a
distance," quantum holography may be the spookiest to date.

Researchers at Boston University's Quantum Imaging Laboratory
(Bahaa Saleh, 617-353-7176, besaleh@bu.edu) propose to create
holographic images of objects concealed in a spherical chamber.

Ideally, a small opening in the chamber wall permits light to
enter, but lets no light out. The photons in a beam of light
directed through the hole scatter from the enclosed object, and
ultimately strike the inner wall of the chamber - see figure at:

http://www.aip.org/mgr/png

According to the scheme, the inside of chamber would be designed
to detect the time when a photon hits the wall but not where it
hits.

Classically, there is no way to generate an image of an object
with this sort of configuration. Quantum mechanically, however,
it's possible to build a hologram of the hidden object provided
that the photons in the illuminating beam are entangled with
photons in another beam.

[Quantum Entanglement is marvel in itself, with certain
apparent super-luminal properties. -LH]

Each photon in an entangled pair has properties (such as
momentum or polarization) that are unknown until a measurement
is performed on one photon or the other.

When a property of one of the photons is measured, corresponding
information about its entangled mate is instantly determined.
That may seem spooky enough, but in quantum holography, things
get spookier still.

Holograms are typically constructed with interfering beams of
light, which provides more information about a subject than
simple illumination can. The additional information helps build
a three dimensional image of a three dimensional object.

In quantum holography, the researchers measure the simultaneous
arrivals of an illuminating photon that is sent into the chamber
and a companion photon in the other entangled beam. This
measurement tells the researchers about the interference of
various possible paths that the single photon inside the chamber
could travel. And it's the interference of the possible paths
that encodes the holographic image of the hidden object. Very
spooky indeed.

For the moment, quantum holography exists only on paper. But the
researchers assert that there are no technological obstacles to
the proposal, and they hope to begin building an experimental
system soon.

(Ayman F. Abouraddy, Bahaa E. A. Saleh, Alexander V. Sergienko,
and Malvin C. Teich, Optics Express, 5 November 2001.)

- - - -

Those interested can email the AIP listserver and receive
updates like these from time to time.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:22:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:32:40 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:01:25 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 21 Nov 2001 08:25:06 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>>More Baloney Detection
 >>>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,

<snip>

 >I think Shermer's assertions were rash and simplistic.

In for the penney (?), I'm in for the pound... simplistic
rashness gives way to suspect motivations, artful obfuscation,
shallow dimensionlessness, and rank intellectual suicide in the
tradition Dr. Menzel.

 >I wonder
 >how many SETI people feel that he is qualified to speak for them
 >as a group.

I suspect that they are comforted in some way that would be
pathetic if it weren't so tragic. It _is_ a seriously silly
effort to investigate... If the Neanderthal had had a notion of
the extra terrestrial, they would have expected to communicate
with signal fires?

 >Even if he were 'pro-UFO' I wouldn't want him
 >putting words in my mouth; not after that Baloney Detection
 >article in Scientific American.

Which really goes a long way towards demonstrating the bald
duplicity of mainstream science, doesn't it, when a biased axe
grinfing confabulator like Shermer can get open handed
validation in "Scientific American" and Stanton Freidman can't?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
 >
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:37:44 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:24:08 EST
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>[BS] By Michael Shermer

<snip>

 >Dear Wilbur and Larry, also List and EBK,

 >>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>nobody beats me to it:

 >>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote?

 >____Same as yours, Mr. L _____

 >>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>Seems dumb to me, see above.

 >Your vote? _________

 >Why dumb? Presuppose these dudes are the explorer type, or maybe
 >like to infiltrate life forms on various planets in order to
 >improve the breed, or for that matter, their own breed using our
 >DNA. Who are we to assume human terms for what may likely be a
 >very high form of life compared with our own?

Hello Jimbo, friends, romancers and Canadians:

I say "dumb" because bio-engineered and/or cybernetic critters
could do ALL of those things above and below, and possibly much
better, while the native Curtuglians (or whatever) enjoyed
umbrella drinks by the methane pool as grass-skirted Wahikis and
musicians provide entertainment.

 >Let's do a "What if!" What if there was a way beyond our own
 >knowledge of physics, with which to span the distances sans the
 >need for long trips?

That's a tough call! _If_ such a thing were possible, and I see
absolutely no sign of it being possible, then _Yes_!! By all
means go and see it for yourself!! [Stock up on nicotine gum
first of course.]

Problem is, it may _not_ be possible. Even the tantalizing
findings of "quantum entanglement" in physics, which seem to
imply FTL (faster than light) travel possibilities to the
layman, offer NO such prospect if you read the fine print.

So far, nobody is seriously proposing that you can send _one
single bit of information_ , let alone a living being anywhere,
FTL. Zero. Zippo.

It may well be that this is a fundamental, and forever
impenetrable law of nature; one which _no_ mortal being may
overcome, for all time.

Prove otherwise, and they will scrap the Nobel Prize and name
the new one after you!

Failing that, as I strongly believe we will for all time, we are
left with slow trains to Georgia ( or wherever. )

 >And what if that method required small amounts of energy?

Oh heck. ET, sufficiently advanced has _loads_ of energy. That's
no real problem.

 >On that assumption, which is not at all a wild assumption,
 >wouldn't _YOU_ go from here to Plaeides to see
 >the people? IF you answer "no!" I just don't have any faith in
 >your brew. Try something donestic.

I would go there in one hot second if it weren't for my asshole
of a boss. Of course I would. Just give me the formula for FTL
travel, and I can kiss my cruddy job goodbye.

 >>(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >>representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >>rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >>assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >>thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
 >>questions.

 >>Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >>UFO people would.

 >Yeah, well, just what the hell is a "UFO people" anyway, Larry?
 >It almost sounds as if we are a cult of nerds and nitwits, and
 >worse.

Some are, others make more sense.

 >Allow me to answer for me at least. A UFO people is someone who
 >allows for the possibility that we've been visited. Someone who
 >has the imagination to at least perceive the level of
 >attribution of truth of those who claim to have seen them. Not
 >counting the really crazy loonies who think they've been
 >abducted by space aliens, God help their souls.

 >Dammit, Larry, this one got my juices going. I am a little
 >surprised at the tone of the post toastie. I _know_ you are
 >someone with an open mind. Heck, it was you who invented the
 >phrase, "Pair of Dimes" and without Gripple even. So what's all
 >this negativity about?

Negativity? Please Jimbo! I just don't think that the native
Glerkoids come here in person, that's all. I see absolutely no
need for that.

None of this rules out the abduction scene, or anything else
associated with UFOs in general. Its almost a non-issue as we
could not tell a super intelligent but artificial "being" from a
native (you-name-it) if we went out with them for a round of
golf.

 >No one has more doubts about what is in my memory than I. And
 >even thru all of that doubt, there is not one iota of evidence
 >that anything _else_ could have happened than what I recall did
 >happen.

 >>PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
 >>as that might seem. -LH

 >It does seem odd. Having seen Squirmin Sherm in the flesh in NY
 >and witnessed the veritable _joy_ he has when he makes fun of
 >us, I can tell you that anything he has to say, even if true,
 >comes from a mind hell bent on making fools out of all of us who
 >have sightings of perceive abduction. That man should seek help.

I have to back off on that one! Bruce Macca(you spell it)
pointed out several other glaring logical errors in Shermer's
essay. I stand corrected on that score.

 >Now for the really important news. Tomorrow I shall break bread at
 >mom and dad. And at 89 years of age, I want you all to know that
 >my dad makes the best martini the world has ever known. Aha! you
 >say, the man boasteth verily too much.

Peace and Dos Equis to all of good will. Except the androids of
course; may they either fess up or choke on my smoke.


Best wishes sincerely

- Larry Hatch







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

               Re: The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 00:44:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:12:57 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse - Boreham


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: The Rendlesham Case - Lighthouse
 >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:53:07 -0000

 >One List member asked me, if, in the light of new information,
 >my publishers had decided to omit the a section that I had
 >planned to include on the lighthouse theory in my paperback, You
 >Can't Tell The People. If so, would I be prepared to post it on
 >Updates.

 >The truth is, that I personally decided to exclude it because
 >the new information, especially that from Halt and one of the
 >primary witnesses, seemed to demolish the theory that it could
 >have been a lightship, as Robert McLean now thinks.

 >The fact is, that Halt admitted that the red light was in the
 >forest and when it stopped in front of him at eye level, it was
 >a solid object. I cannot imagine that a lighthouse or a
 >lightship for that matter, would able to fly through the sky,
 >move in and out of the trees and hover at about five foot.
 >Unless of course, Dr Who had anything to with it :-)

 >I am posting the piece that was intended for the paperback, here
 >on Updates. This is based on Robert McLean's research into the
 >lighthouse/lightship theory. I respect Robert's research but if
 >you have read the paperback update, you will see why I made this
 >decision. Apart from Halt's latest, there are so many other
 >things to consider, such as the events that happened 100 years
 >ago. Even if the lighthouse was around at that time, which I
 >have not yet checked,

<snip>

The tower that stands today was built in 1792,but a light has
been on the site in different styles since 1637.








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:41:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:15:45 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:33 -0600

 >>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>>>Part II

 >>>>By Michael Shermer

 ><snip>

 >>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>>nobody beats me to it:

 >>>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

 >So close to 100% that the difference is not likely measurable...

 >>>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 >If they're 100% somewhere, then they might just as likely be
 >here, and given the historical evidence, the photographic
 >evidence, the anecdotal evidence, the physical evidence, and the
 >personal evidence...(?) I'm inexplicably compelled to vote...
 >uh, yes. <chuh!>

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Hello Alfred:

Well, life elsewhere looks unanimous.

As for them being "here", if they are "there" (as all agree so
far) I am stopped by the horrendous times and distances
involved, not to mention the sheer boredom.

That's why I still vote for intelligent cyborgs, something of
that sort. Such created "astronauts" could be designed solely
for the purposes of exploration, leaving their designers free to
pursue their disgusting slimy (whatever) on the planet(s) that
are natural to them.

I just cannot see any reason for natural born Xyrkians (or
whatever) to come here in person, and several reasons to send
highly intelligent (whatever) in their place. [burp!]

There! That's another reason. Lousy beer in space, more likely
none at all. Cyborgs don't drink or smoke. You can't smoke on a
space-ship. I had to chew nicotine gum on a flight to Boston for
Chrissakes.


Best

- Larry Hatch







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:04:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:17:53 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:24:08 EST
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >
 >>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

<snip>

 >>(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >>representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >>rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >>assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >>thinking rational beings... capable of asking these very
 >>questions.

 >>Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >>UFO people would. [-LH]

 >Yeah, well, just what the hell is a "UFO people" anyway, Larry?
 >It almost sounds as if we are a cult of nerds and nitwits, and
 >worse.

= = = = =

Hello again Morty!!

I forgot something.

I am obviously as much a "UFO People" as anyone else.

Having spent most or all of the last seventeen years compiling
the *U* UFO Database, I could not pass up this opportunity to
boast about it, even to the point of providing this URL:

  http://www.larryhatch.net

...a monomaniacal effort which should gain me entry into any
mental hospital you can name!

UFO people are simply people interested in UFOs, like most
everyone on this list.


Very best wishes for a fine holiday!

- Larry Hatch


PS: Please everybody who writes to me, on-list or privately,
make sure to use the email address:

larry@larryhatch.net

(ragpicker@larryhatch.net is OK too ) My old email address
"larryhat@jps.net" is going to cyber-heaven.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                   Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:22:36 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Mortellaro


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:53 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:24:08 EST
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>>[BS] By Michael Shermer

 ><snip>

 >>Dear Wilbur and Larry, also List and EBK,

 >>>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>>nobody beats me to it:

 >>>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote?

 >>____Same as yours, Mr. L _____

 >>>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>>Seems dumb to me, see above.

 >>Your vote? _________

 >>Why dumb? Presuppose these dudes are the explorer type, or maybe
 >>like to infiltrate life forms on various planets in order to
 >>improve the breed, or for that matter, their own breed using our
 >>DNA. Who are we to assume human terms for what may likely be a
 >>very high form of life compared with our own?

 >Hello Jimbo, friends, romancers and Canadians:

Hello back, Larry, and List and EBK... and that would be "Canahoovians"
I think... [Canajuns, eh? --ebk]

 >I say "dumb" because bio-engineered and/or cybernetic critters
 >could do ALL of those things above and below, and possibly much
 >better, while the native Curtuglians (or whatever) enjoyed
 >umbrella drinks by the methane pool as grass-skirted Wahikis and
 >musicians provide entertainment.

Perhaps, and maybe definitely because of remembered scenes in my
Gripple-addled mind. But I also remember en titties who looked
very much like more normal, non-constructed or engineered types.
But whadda I know? Anyway, so bioengineered thingies can do
everything, so? Were I a Curtuglian born and bred to be so smart
as to bio engineer a gray or one-a them lizard turd folk, I
would also maybe like to see the people myself. But, there I go
humanizing them dudes again.

 >>Let's do a "What if!" What if there was a way beyond our own
 >>knowledge of physics, with which to span the distances sans the
 >>need for long trips?

 >That's a tough call! _If_ such a thing were possible, and I see
 >absolutely no sign of it being possible, then _Yes_!! By all
 >means go and see it for yourself!! [Stock up on nicotine gum
 >first of course.]

But Larry, don't you see that the evidence of the "possibility"
of such travel is there? On the assumption that it is even
remotely possible, one should be able to extrapolate the
evidence which Hynek brings forth in his argument for ET
visitation. And his arguments were presented by moi as well as
Alfred Lehmberg. Did you read his book?

 >Problem is, it may _not_ be possible. Even the tantalizing
 >findings of "quantum entanglement" in physics, which seem to
 >imply FTL (faster than light) travel possibilities to the
 >layman, offer NO such prospect if you read the fine print.

And I retort that if it may not be possible, then it equally, MAY
be possible. Half full or half empty? My Bud's half full.

 >So far, nobody is seriously proposing that you can send _one
 >single bit of information_ , let alone a living being anywhere,
 >FTL. Zero. Zippo.

Which in our silly fossify implies that it may be possible as
above.

 >It may well be that this is a fundamental, and forever
 >impenetrable law of nature; one which _no_ mortal being may
 >overcome, for all time.

Oh come on, use that God-given imagination and thunk up some
possbilities. Remember, paradigms change. Crimey, Larry, did you
even _conceive_ of using this keyboard attached to a doo hickey
transmitting instantly (nearly) to Aussie land and what used to
be the Gold Coast? Go back ten years and lemme know.

 >Prove otherwise, and they will scrap the Nobel Prize and name
 >the new one after you!

It ain't me babe. No, no, no, well it ain't me babe. All I can do is
relate what's in my memory. And we all know that's full of inkahol.

 >Failing that, as I strongly believe we will for all time, we are
 >left with slow trains to Georgia ( or wherever. )

 >>And what if that method required small amounts of energy?

 >Oh heck. ET, sufficiently advanced has _loads_ of energy. That's
 >no real problem.

 >>On that assumption, which is not at all a wild assumption,
 >>wouldn't _YOU_ go from here to Plaeides to see
 >>the people? IF you answer "no!" I just don't have any faith in
 >>your brew. Try something donestic.

 >I would go there in one hot second if it weren't for my asshole
 >of a boss. Of course I would. Just give me the formula for FTL
 >travel, and I can kiss my cruddy job goodbye.

 >>>(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >>>representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >>>rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >>>assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >>>thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
 >>>questions.

 >>>Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >>>UFO people would.

 >>Yeah, well, just what the hell is a "UFO people" anyway, Larry?
 >>It almost sounds as if we are a cult of nerds and nitwits, and
 >>worse.

 >Some are, others make more sense.

Hmmm. Agreed. In spades.

 >>Allow me to answer for me at least. A UFO people is someone who
 >>allows for the possibility that we've been visited. Someone who
 >>has the imagination to at least perceive the level of
 >>attribution of truth of those who claim to have seen them. Not
 >>counting the really crazy loonies who think they've been
 >>abducted by space aliens, God help their souls.

 >>Dammit, Larry, this one got my juices going. I am a little
 >>surprised at the tone of the post toastie. I _know_ you are
 >>someone with an open mind. Heck, it was you who invented the
 >>phrase, "Pair of Dimes" and without Gripple even. So what's all
 >>this negativity about?

 >Negativity? Please Jimbo! I just don't think that the native
 >Glerkoids come here in person, that's all. I see absolutely no
 >need for that.

Then how to explain UFOs _and_ the abduction experience.
Perceived or otherwise. Too much evidence _for_ Larry. Again,
please read Hynek. The primo scientist closest to the source and
most qualified to opine on the subject. Larry, please, read the
damned book. If you ain't got acces to a copy, I shall send it
off to you. It is an experience in logic and reason.

 >None of this rules out the abduction scene, or anything else
 >associated with UFOs in general. Its almost a non-issue as we
 >could not tell a super intelligent but artificial "being" from a
 >native (you-name-it) if we went out with them for a round of
 >golf.

 >>No one has more doubts about what is in my memory than I. And
 >>even thru all of that doubt, there is not one iota of evidence
 >>that anything _else_ could have happened than what I recall did
 >>happen.

 >>>PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
 >>>as that might seem. -LH

 >>It does seem odd. Having seen Squirmin Sherm in the flesh in NY
 >>and witnessed the veritable _joy_ he has when he makes fun of
 >>us, I can tell you that anything he has to say, even if true,
 >>comes from a mind hell bent on making fools out of all of us who
 >>have sightings of perceive abduction. That man should seek help.

 >I have to back off on that one! Bruce Macca(you spell it)
 >pointed out several other glaring logical errors in Shermer's
 >essay. I stand corrected on that score.

Macadamian ... Maccabeee ... Maccanudo... Him. And it doesn't
take a brain surgeon or damned good researcher like uncle Bruce
to figger out Squirmin Shermer's gleeful smirk!

 >>Now for the really important news. Tomorrow I shall break bread at
 >>mom and dad. And at 89 years of age, I want you all to know that
 >>my dad makes the best martini the world has ever known. Aha! you
 >>say, the man boasteth verily too much.

 >Peace and Dos Equis to all of good will. Except the androids of
 >course; may they either fess up or choke on my smoke.

 >Best wishes sincerely

You too and to the List. And as I've stated previously, "if
wished were fishes, we'd all cast nets." Or is that castanets?
Whatever.


Jim
Rosie & Pepe le Pew







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                    Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:19:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:18:52 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:41:42 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:33 -0600

 >>>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>>>>Part II

 >>>>>By Michael Shermer

 >><snip>

 >>>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>>>nobody beats me to it:

 >>>>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>>>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>>>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

 >>So close to 100% that the difference is not likely measurable...

 >>>>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>>>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>>>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 >>If they're 100% somewhere, then they might just as likely be
 >>here, and given the historical evidence, the photographic
 >>evidence, the anecdotal evidence, the physical evidence, and the
 >>personal evidence...(?) I'm inexplicably compelled to vote...
 >>uh, yes. <chuh!>

 >>Lehmberg@snowhill.com


 >Hello Alfred:
 >
 >Well, life elsewhere looks unanimous.

 >As for them being "here", if they are "there" (as all agree so
 >far) I am stopped by the horrendous times and distances
 >involved, not to mention the sheer boredom.

In the first place those times and distances are as _you_ would
measure them with a pretty short experiential base, even if you
had the proverbial best and brightest passionately working for
you. Besides, the distances are reachable even with engine
technology we had near the middle of last century. My dad (tres
limited) and Stanton Friedman worked on it at AeroJet General
near the middle of last century. We could'a done it for a
coupl'a aircraft carriers in the seventies...

The second place concerns how easily one becomes bored... and
how easily can one become bored on a continuous adventure, with
all the toys necessary, into the unknown... for a life of
unguessed at length... time and space...

 >That's why I still vote for intelligent cyborgs, something of
 >that sort. Such created "astronauts" could be designed solely
 >for the purposes of exploration, leaving their designers free to
 >pursue their disgusting slimy (whatever) on the planet(s) that
 >are natural to them.

...and after checking _us_ out with an alien view for a little
while now (?), I can appreciate how disgusting they might be...

 >I just cannot see any reason for natural born Xyrkians (or
 >whatever) to come here in person, and several reasons to send
 >highly intelligent (whatever) in their place. [burp!]

...A second or third power civilization has a hard time
relegating themselves to a "place", I would imagine...

 >There! That's another reason. Lousy beer in space, more likely
 >none at all.

Who needs beer when you can plug right into sensory reality via
your computer?

 >Cyborgs don't drink or smoke.

Neither one of us knows what they might do or not do. Besides,
if you can conceive of them at all, why not conceive of them
that smoke, drink, and run around with partridge feathers in
their bums?

 >You can't smoke on a
 >space-ship. I had to chew nicotine gum on a flight to Boston for
 >Chrissakes.

I read a book on a recent flight from California... Ruppelt's
"Report on UFOs"... (picked it up for two dollars at a used book
store). On the third reading now, I discover that I did not miss
his humourlessness at all... sex, substance addiction, and UFOs
just get unfunnier as time goes on...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 10:41:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:23:30 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:22:36 EST
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:13:53 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:24:08 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

<snip>

Hello again 'taliano!

If I snipped too much, it won't hurt for a little while..

 >>>Let's do a "What if!" What if there was a way beyond our own
 >>>knowledge of physics, with which to span the distances sans the
 >>>need for long trips?

 >>That's a tough call! _If_ such a thing were possible, and I see
 >>absolutely no sign of it being possible, then _Yes_!! By all
 >>means go and see it for yourself!! [Stock up on nicotine gum
 >>first of course.]

 >But Larry, don't you see that the evidence of the "possibility"
 >of such travel is there?

Yes, but only if your get past that terrible FTL (faster than
light) matter. It may seem a detail to the readers of science
fiction, but its a _real_ bear for physical realists. Most
physicists, even the ones who enjoy thinking "out-of-the-box",
find this virtually impenetrable for practical matters ala'
sending pies thru space.

Maybe a few physics classes are in order here. They ain't easy
bub, and neither is the calculus needed just for an entry
ticket. That's what makes it so tough to reason with the public.

In a word, they aren't in on things. Sci-fi, Art Bell howlers
and cotton-candy mind-fuck is so-so-so much easier.

 >On the assumption that it is even
 >remotely possible, one should be able to extrapolate the
 >evidence which Hynek brings forth in his argument for ET
 >visitation. And his arguments were presented by moi as well as
 >Alfred Lehmberg. Did you read his book?

I read every Hynek book I could find, over and over and over
again. Here is a list of my sources:

http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html

You will find Hynek (whom I sadly never met) and his old
student Vallee ( whom I did ) listed over and over
right up at the top.

Both of them influenced me greatly, but for different reasons.
Neither of them influenced me for being unrealistic nor
illogical, no matter how much I might disagree with their final
assessments.

Hynek stressed (and I quite agree) that there is something here
not properly understood nor studied by scientists as a whole.

Vallee argued for the systematic collection of evidence or
sightings cases at the very least. No argument here!!

I personally believe it is a mistake to go too far beyond our
present, and obviously limited understanding of physical
principles as persently understood! To do so violates every
time-tested and time-proven methodology of natural science.

Speculation? Wonderful! You bringa lasagna, and not that crappy
canned shit from Chef-Boy-ar-Sweden. I'll supply the wine. We
will have a fine time, but don't expect me to buy into anything
too far out of the box, please!

 >>Problem is, it may _not_ be possible. Even the tantalizing
 >>findings of "quantum entanglement" in physics, which seem to
 >>imply FTL (faster than light) travel possibilities to the
 >>layman, offer NO such prospect if you read the fine print.

 >And I retort that if it may not be possible, then it equally, MAY
 >be possible. Half full or half empty? My Bud's half full.

Maybe there is a Great Pumpkin who simply hides from Linus
(Peanuts comic strip) too. I have no time for this.

 >>So far, nobody is seriously proposing that you can send _one
 >>single bit of information_ , let alone a living being anywhere,
 >>FTL. Zero. Zippo.

 >Which in our silly fossify implies that it may be possible as
 >above.

You lost me there! Where's the lasagna?

 >>It may well be that this is a fundamental, and forever
 >>impenetrable law of nature; one which _no_ mortal being may
 >>overcome, for all time.

 >Oh come on, use that God-given imagination and thunk up some
 >possbilities.

Magic? I'm no deist.

I think there are a whole lot of neat things that lay awaiting
discovery. Real things now! Again, I'm just kicked back by
supercodnductivity... at any temperature, _even_ the liquid
helium temps SC was discovered at, nearly a century ago!

Jimmy M: I really like you like a pal. Thats a fact. If you want
to quote me (much appreciated of course) please forget about two
dimes and try this:

==>Physics is stranger than fiction.

I hope like hell nobody else said it first. If so, I humbly
apologize. Its goddam true either way.

Nobody can explain gravity to my satisfaction yet.

I can't see how any natural law which denies us a "free lunch"
(thermodynamics) and fucks up wheel bearings with such a
vengeance, can possiply provide us with superconductiviy at any
goddam temperature. .. yet there it is.

I maintain that the best and most significant way to learn about
UFOs is to (re)learn how they work. We gotta do it ourselves.

All the brain-jelly, sociology and horse-crap can come later. We
have lots of under-employed experts for that.


Very best wishes (I mean that)

- Larry Hatch


- - - - - -

 >Remember, paradigms change. Crimey, Larry, did you
 >even _conceive_ of using this keyboard attached to a doo hickey
 >transmitting instantly (nearly) to Aussie land and what used to
 >be the Gold Coast? Go back ten years and lemme know.

 >>Prove otherwise, and they will scrap the Nobel Prize and name
 >>the new one after you!

 >It ain't me babe. No, no, no, well it ain't me babe. All I can do is
 >relate what's in my memory. And we all know that's full of inkahol.

 >>Failing that, as I strongly believe we will for all time, we are
 >>left with slow trains to Georgia ( or wherever. )

 >>>And what if that method required small amounts of energy?

 >>Oh heck. ET, sufficiently advanced has _loads_ of energy. That's
 >>no real problem.

 >>>On that assumption, which is not at all a wild assumption,
 >>>wouldn't _YOU_ go from here to Plaeides to see
 >>>the people? IF you answer "no!" I just don't have any faith in
 >>>your brew. Try something donestic.

 >>I would go there in one hot second if it weren't for my asshole
 >>of a boss. Of course I would. Just give me the formula for FTL
 >>travel, and I can kiss my cruddy job goodbye.

 >>>>(Now I would like but I don't know how) to ask a large
 >>>>representative group of SETI people, against whom I bear no
 >>>>rancor really, to tell us whether they indeed proceed from the
 >>>>assumption that humankind is alone in the universe, in term of
 >>>>thinking rational beings .. capable of asking these very
 >>>>questions.

 >>>>Maybe they would prefer to speak for themselves; I'm sure the
 >>>>UFO people would.

 >>>Yeah, well, just what the hell is a "UFO people" anyway, Larry?
 >>>It almost sounds as if we are a cult of nerds and nitwits, and
 >>>worse.

 >>Some are, others make more sense.

 >Hmmm. Agreed. In spades.

 >>>Allow me to answer for me at least. A UFO people is someone who
 >>>allows for the possibility that we've been visited. Someone who
 >>>has the imagination to at least perceive the level of
 >>>attribution of truth of those who claim to have seen them. Not
 >>>counting the really crazy loonies who think they've been
 >>>abducted by space aliens, God help their souls.

 >>>Dammit, Larry, this one got my juices going. I am a little
 >>>surprised at the tone of the post toastie. I _know_ you are
 >>>someone with an open mind. Heck, it was you who invented the
 >>>phrase, "Pair of Dimes" and without Gripple even. So what's all
 >>>this negativity about?

 >>Negativity? Please Jimbo! I just don't think that the native
 >>Glerkoids come here in person, that's all. I see absolutely no
 >>need for that.

 >Then how to explain UFOs _and_ the abduction experience.
 >Perceived or otherwise. Too much evidence _for_ Larry. Again,
 >please read Hynek. The primo scientist closest to the source and
 >most qualified to opine on the subject. Larry, please, read the
 >damned book. If you ain't got acces to a copy, I shall send it
 >off to you. It is an experience in logic and reason.

Cheese and crackers guy!?

Its simple. The Glixoerds send foozo probes in all promising
directions. They report back all the time. Having found
Earthlike planets here and there, they report back.

Those planets with the best slot machines (or whatever) receive
more attention, while the original senders just ooze back and
forth in a thoroughly disgusting manner. Having long since
discovered how to control the aging process, their greatest fear
is 'accident of old age' (ala Saddam).

If it takes 1000 years for a 'return on investment' i.e. to find
out some scientific data, then so be it. I planted a lemon tree
and it died. Tree #3 is finally working for a living (the dumb
shit)

It is my fond hope that some ET Globurbulons will laugh at all
this, maybe centuries or milleniafrom now, and consider us both
rather decent fellows, given the conditions under which we must
now live.

I don't think they want us for 'pets'. If they did, they could
send back DNA codes and save a ton of "postage" (not to say
interstellar damage).

I think its just nuts to send living breathing mortals beyond
the solar system, when little chips can beat up on Boris Spasski
at chess, even now.

 >>None of this rules out the abduction scene, or anything else
 >>associated with UFOs in general. Its almost a non-issue as we
 >>could not tell a super intelligent but artificial "being" from a
 >>native (you-name-it) if we went out with them for a round of
 >>golf.

 >>>No one has more doubts about what is in my memory than I. And
 >>>even thru all of that doubt, there is not one iota of evidence
 >>>that anything _else_ could have happened than what I recall did
 >>>happen.

 >>>>PS: I rather agree with the rest of Shermer's presentation, odd
 >>>>as that might seem. -LH

 >>>It does seem odd. Having seen Squirmin Sherm in the flesh in NY
 >>>and witnessed the veritable _joy_ he has when he makes fun of
 >>>us, I can tell you that anything he has to say, even if true,
 >>>comes from a mind hell bent on making fools out of all of us who
 >>>have sightings of perceive abduction. That man should seek help.

 >>I have to back off on that one! Bruce Macca(you spell it)
 >>pointed out several other glaring logical errors in Shermer's
 >>essay. I stand corrected on that score.

 >Macadamian ... Maccabeee ... Maccanudo... Him. And it doesn't
 >take a brain surgeon or damned good researcher like uncle Bruce
 >to figger out Squirmin Shermer's gleeful smirk!

<snip>

 >>Peace and Dos Equis to all of good will. Except the androids of
 >>course; may they either fess up or choke on my smoke.

 >>Best wishes sincerely

 >You too and to the List. And as I've stated previously, "if
 >wished were fishes, we'd all cast nets." Or is that castanets?
 >Whatever.

 >Jim

- - - -

Very best to all:

Q: Does Pepe-le-pew pee in church?

That is the wonderful thing about a dog. No attention to
horse-crap whatsoever. -LH

- - - - - - -






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 22

                   Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 19:39:33 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:25:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Bruni


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Easton
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:48:19 -0000


Regarding:

 >We also have numerous accounts from such as Chris Armold

Exactly. Chris Armold's stories are well known to certain
British researchers. They are a mixture of several events. I for
one cannot except his stories because he admitted with a
vengeance, his dislike for Halt and Burroughs, and all this is
something you fail to mention when you use him as a debunking
tool. (His report is featured in my book)

 >Thirdly... the recently released MoD documentation proves there
 >was no 'cover up', in any respect.

Amazing! When you selectively quote you can make everything
appear the way you want it to be. Your take on the MOD documents
is from a debunkers angle. You fail to discuss the documents as
a whole, forget to mention that the MOD lied, forget to mention
that the USAF general was given the "evidence", and a number of
other important factors.

 >Presumably, you do know that 'Steve Roberts' is a pseudonym.

 >According to Larry Warren, Steve's real name was Danny. During
 >discussions with Larry, I mentioned: "On 2 January 1981, an
 >airman friend of Brenda Butler's first broke the story of a UFO
 >which had crashed in Rendlesham Forest. In 'Skycrash', he was
 >given the pseudonym of 'Steve Roberts'."

His name is not Danny. Unfortunately Larry has a habit of doing
this. He is now claiming that he recalls General Gabriel's visit
to the base, which is quite extraordinary considering only a few
senior officers were aware of it.

 >Larry confirmed in response:

 >"But sadly, Danny was the A Flight Desk Sgt. for Law Enforcement
 >and did not witness the three night UFO incident".

Read my book where I devote a whole chapter to Steve Roberts. He
was with Security Police Investigations, not Law Enforcement.

You quote (as ever) Rayl's interview with Halt.

 >RAYL: ...to have been a deliberate fabrication. So, apparently,
 >this fellow, Steve Roberts which is a pseudonym, went out and
 >told this story and then later said it was a complete
 >fabrication and now is saying that Larry Warren just picked up
 >the story. Do you know anything about that? Does that make sense
 >to you?

 >HALT: That individual I'd rather not reveal his name since he
 >doesn't want it revealed worked in the back office with Larry
 >Warren in the security police squadron and was closely
 >associated with him. I know who that person is.

This is simply not true. As I explained in a previous post to
Tim Matthews, Halt had his reasons for hiding the true identity
of Roberts. It is my firm opinion, based on several points
(including conversations which I cannot reveal, that came, from
a senior officer), that Halt was most probably responsible for
Roberts changing his story. Don't forget that Halt and Roberts
travelled to England from Germany on the same day, and that
Roberts went straight in search of Brenda and Dot to pass on a
message from Halt, whilst at the same time debunking his
original story.

Considering that Rayl has Halt and another witness on contract
for a book, I do hope that Halt tells her some of the real
facts, and that if the book ever gets written, that we don't get
a story to cover up the real story that senior officers are
afraid to talk about in public. It's such a shame that she
hasn't managed to do anything in all this time. I'm sure he
would have been more open about his case if he hadn't signed a
contract that seems to be going nowhere.


Georgina Bruni

Out now, the paperback version (Updated) "You Can't Tell The
People" The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO
Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by PanMacmillan. Available
in all good book shops and on-line at: www.amazon.co.uk






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 23

                       Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:59:04 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 07:25:52 -0500
Subject: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions


Dear All,

As expected, the last few days have thrown up significant heat,
and some light, on the ongoing Rendlesham debate.

It would be foolish to go into every comment made but here goes:

1 - We have now completed Stage 1 whereby certain information
has been made public. The attitudes of the Ufologists were
entirely predictable; whatever we produce will be derided. This
makes no difference to our continued efforts re; Rendlesham.

2 - Ufology does not appear to be able to see outside its own
bubble. As things currently stand, our view is that the UFO
incident/s at Rendlesham over the Christmas 1980 period were
quite possibly _incidental_,_not_ central, to what followed.
Much of James Easton's research has been directed towards
witness statements, what s/he said and what he thinks s/he
actually saw. Some of this is very valuable and, despite his
debunking Penniston, Burroughs et al and writing about tractors
in fields (there is a certain irony in the tractors story but
not right now....!) being responsible for the UFO incident/s he
still clings to the belief that something UFO-related happened,
if I've understood him correctly. He says that we should not
ignore the UFO sightings, despite having explained many of them
himself.

3 - People should not be so afraid of new theories and evidence.
There may not be one all encompassing explanation for what we
call the Rendlesham Incident.

4 - With this in mind, Stage 1 of our efforts, gaining publicity
within and outside Ufology and encouraging new witnesses to come
forward and seeking new information has been unusually
successful.

5 - Many things trouble us including the allegations that
Margaret Thatcher indicated that UFOs were a big issue and/or
that she knew anything about Rendlesham. We have a letter, dated
12th November 2001, from the former PM's Personal Assistant,
telling us that, having worked with Mrs. Thatcher for some time,
she is often heard to say, "you must get your facts right."
Furthermore, we are told that, "You should not read much into"
the statements about getting facts right and "You can't tell the
people." For Georgina Bruni to suggest that Mrs. Thatcher/her PA
"would say that wouldn't she" means that, in effect, Thatcher
cannot be relied upon to tell the truth in the first place!
Georgina's use of Margaret Thatcher is, therefore, is NOT
justified.

6 - Given the vague and almost meaningless comments made by Mrs.
T we are interested to know rather more about the circumstances
in which these comments were made, times, dates, places etc. As
a journalist I would have taken either shorthand notes or made a
recording, especially if I was going to ask specifically about
UFOs.

Georgina Bruni, who I quite like actually but who keeps claiming
that I am attacking her, has made much of Mrs. T's comments and
wrote to me suggesting that Macmillan, her publishers, must have
been satisfied that she (Georgina) had accurately reflected her
conversation with the former PM. Our view is that Macmillan,
like other publishers, are only concerned to make money, to sell
books. They are not taking a position as regards the evidence,
only seeking to maximise sales via spin and clever marketing. I
don't blame them.

7 - Furthermore, Mrs. Thatcher's comments, as limited and as
vague as they were, are being taken as seriously as Ronald
Reagan's public comments about "an alien invasion" made during
the 1980s. It is doubtful that he had any hard data on aliens
and, if we are to believe the cover up and conspiracy merchants,
wouldn't have blabbed in public anyway. Nevertheless, his
comments were typical of the man; written for effect and high
drama, trying to explain difficult concepts (nations working
together) in simple terms. He probably didn't even write the
words himself. His comments about "aliens" do no mean that
either he or his British opposite number were the thirteenth and
fourteenth members of MJ-12!

8 - It seems, from some quarters, that people are having a
problem finding data on nuclear accidents of any magnitude in
the UK. That is because much of the data has been in dispute
since the industry began in the mid 1950s. Some has been buried,
some covered up.

Nuclear power is and has been a much hotter political potato
than anyone is giving credit for and people forget the symbiotic
relationship between nuclear weaponry and nuclear power
generation. They also forget the political realities and
paranoia of the Cold War, which many of us are convinced had a
bearing on UFOs. The Hilda Murrell case and many others strongly
suggest that we are in no way party to the facts in relation to
the nuclear industry. In any case, people who have worked within
the industry have been the most dangerous to the industry in
highlighting its safety failures.

9 - We are not saying, and neither are our sources, that this
was a 'major leak' of material. It didn't have to be to set
alarm bells ringing. Simply because there is no official
documentation (or appears not to be) is neither here nor there.

It has been suggested to me in the strongest possible terms that
the British government operated something of a 'forward
sanitation' process re; certain MOD documents whereby only the
lesser material, at lower level of categorisation, would be
released. Such is the case with the 155 pages of Rendlesham
material. Not all the documents are there. Of course, only one
(Halt Memo) mentions anything to do with radiation but we are
not using Halt's comments as gospel.

In Britain, we are subjects not citizens and many of our
"rights" are little more than theoretical and certainly not
practical. We have very little right to access highly classified
information. There are still World War Two documents that remain
classified. There may be a "new openness" but all we have
learned thus far is that many documents will remain classified
despite a new UK FOI Act. Sure, Dave Clark and co have made
progress with the MOD but are they party to all the facts,
documents and data? Probably not and, in any case, there may
well be thousands of documents that would take us a lifetime to
read...

10 - Related to the above are other obvious nuclear-type
incidents, like Cash Landrum. Not the same we know, but it still
remains within the UFO literature, despite the fact that this
was not an "alien" incident. Furthermore, there are other
incidents where it seems as if the aliens and UFOs stories were
very useful in persuading people against concluding that some
earthly technology was responsible for an accident, whether it
be the secret testing of FT technology here in 1993/4/5, in
Hudson Valley or Groom and Papoose Lakes.

11 - We agree that there was a certain "psychological" element
to Rendlesham.

12 - Despite the Doty affair and the scandals surrounding the
Bennewitz/Moore/MJ-12 hoax business we find Ufologists in the UK
denying that AFOSI, stationed here and with plenty of power
within its remit, could have had anything to do with
disinformation at Rendlesham. This is, quite frankly the worst
kind of armchair BS. Not only do people NOT know what AFOSI was
doing for sure, but they simply ignore the fact that the same
agency was using and abusing Ufology and Ufologists during the
period we are interested in, 1980-1983.

13 - Ironically, we have discovered new information about UFO
activity in the last two weeks that indicates that something
intriguing was going on in East Anglia in the mid-late 1970s.
(This may not related to my personal belief that RAF Alconbury
was a temporary station for secret/black project aircraft in the
UK in the late 1970s (from 1978 onwards).)

14 - So, there is much for us to do, hence Stage 2, which begins
now. The evaluation of existing research, such as it is, and
researching new information, which could take some time. We
never expected any help from the UFO community, do not ask it
and, probably, do not need it although there are some notable
exceptions. People have privately e-mailed us saying things
like, "well, we think this is really good stuff but couldn't
admit it in on the forums!"

In conclusion I should say that, unlike so many people, we do
not have fixed beliefs about Rendlesham and it is with an open
mind and new facts that we look forward to the challenge of
presenting our considered opinions in due course.

For now, we thank you all for listening.

Over and out.


Tim Matthews

Press Officer
British UFO Studies Centre






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 23

                  Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 19:06:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 07:29:02 -0500
Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation! - Matthews


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Rendlesham Revelation!
 >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 19:39:33 -0000

 >Considering that Rayl has Halt and another witness on contract
 >for a book, I do hope that Halt tells her some of the real
 >facts, and that if the book ever gets written, that we don't get
 >a story to cover up the real story that senior officers are
 >afraid to talk about in public.


So Halt and Co. are covering up? I knew we agreed on something!

Tim M







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 23

                         Re: Spooky Physics! - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 13:03:06 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 07:31:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Spooky Physics! - Kelly


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:29:26 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Spooky Physics!


<snip>

 >I have a sneaking suspicion that if any solid part of the UFO
 >problem is ever solved, it will come from advances in our own
 >sciences, most especially physics.

I truly believe this is how we will solve the UFO mystery, I've
said it before and I'll say it again. I didn't get into
researching UFO's because I saw one or just started believing in
them, I didn't even care if they were real or not, I just wanted
to build a better space craft. It was while I was doing this
over a ten year period that I started to realised it was
possible and that using magnetic fields was the way to go in
terms of propulsion.

When Lazar come onto the scene it was like a revaluation, which
is why I felt he was telling the truth. He answered many
questions I was asking myself about the kinds of magnetic drive
configurations. I had my space craft using a magnetic ring
configuration which got its energy from matter travelling at
high speed inside the ring. But I was having so much trouble
working out how to control the direction I wanted to go in.
Lazar answered all of this question and problems for me. I have
no evidence as to wether or not Lazar was telling the truth, but
in my eyes he either has seen or worked with a real UFO or he is
the must brilliant person on the planet. The space craft he
showed us was just way to close to the mark to have been just a
coincidence, as far as I can see. That craft would fly and fly
just about anywhere one might want to go.

I abandoned my research for two reasons;

1: I learnt magnetic fields and humans just didn't get along and
never ever would. I tried looking at a space suit one could wear
to get around this problem using liquid oxygen to keep the
crystal outer suit away from the skin, but with ever problem I
would solve ten more would pop up. The only way around it that I
could see, was to engineer a human body that wasn't effected as
much by magnetic fields. Getting rid of waste was another
problem as you couldn't take the suit off while out in space.
Once you were in it that was you until you returned to Earth.

2: The fuel or power source I concluded the Grey are using. I
found a link between us and all other life throughout the
Universe with magnetic field being part and parcel of us getting
to and from the afterlife/heaven. (what ever you religion says
it to be) This started worrying me. Anyway I will not bore
everyone here with what I think, but there is something very
strange about how Mars came to be the way it is now and that
pile of rocks orbiting the Sun in between Mars and Jupiter which
cannot been there under natural circumstances, other wise there
would be more of them in between all of the planets in our solar
system. That pile of rocks might well have been a planet and
were all our problems started. Oh and then there is the fact our
moon stopped rotating, now why did that happen? Too many
question with answers that lead one down a path with one
conclusion standing out, Mining of resources.

Regardless of whom you are, all space craft need resources to
build and power them. Even though there are lot's of rock,
comets, ECT floating around out there in our solar system that
could be used, I see it being easier to get these resources from
Earth or the Moon and I am willing to bet my last dollar the
Greys would take the easy path not the hard one.

One things is now without doubt though, magnetic drives are the
way to go when looking at travelling long distances in space.
But for the moment this will only be good for sending probes out
into space.

NASA is looking into these magnetic waves at the moment.
Information about the Cassini-Huygens mission is available
online at:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini


Cheers Chris,
(aka Tophar)








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                      Recognizing Extraterrestrial Life

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 03:51:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 03:51:38 -0500
Subject: Recognizing Extraterrestrial Life

http://www.asu.edu/asunews/current_releases/extraterrestrial111501.htm


News Release

Office of Media Relations and Public Information

November 15, 2001

ASU researchers set criteria for recognizing extraterrestrial
life


For as long as people have gazed at the night sky, they have
wondered if neighboring planets could be populated by living
things. In fact, recent explorations of our solar system have
relayed several enticing hints that the life-supporting
conditions on Earth may not be so unique.

Evidence for water and organic compounds on Mars and Europa has
astrobiologists seriously pursuing the possibility that
primitive life once existed on other planets and moons. As they
gear up for the real acid test - collecting samples from these
distant bodies to examine them directly for evidence of life -
they are tackling nothing less profound than the origins of life
in the universe.

But this pursuit is nagged by an uncertainty: We have never seen
our extraterrestrial cousins before. How will we recognize them
if we meet face to face? Peter Buseck and Martha McCartney, new
members of ASU's arm of the NASA Astrobiology Institute, are
among many scientists who predict the best clues are to be found
in lowly bacteria.

Buseck, Regents Professor of geological sciences and professor
of chemistry and biochemistry at ASU, and McCartney, a research
scientist at ASU's Center for Solid State Science, were recently
funded by NASA to help develop reliable criteria for identifying
traces of life, or "biomarkers," for use during future
astrobiology missions.

Study of organisms from Earth, Buseck and McCartney argue, is
the most promising way to start. After all, Earthly life is the
only life we know, making it our one reference point in judging
whether extraterrestrial life exists. Therefore, Buseck reasons,
"if you find something in extraterrestrial samples that
resembles life on Earth then it's reasonable to think that you
have found traces of life" on other planets.

Because astrobiologists expect extraterrestrial life, if it
exists, to be simple, terrestrial bacteria are getting top
billing as model Martians. Bacteria are single-celled organisms,
among the most primitive life forms on Earth. But the hunt for
ancient bacteria presents some special challenges. Bacteria, all
soft parts and no bones, do not usually leave any traces in the
rock record, making their presence hard to prove. To
unequivocally demonstrate that bacteria were ever present,
Buseck stresses that "you need some sort of biomarker, some sort
of remainder." Preferably, that biomarker should be a durable
material, such as a mineral, that can survive for billions of
years.

Just such a long-lasting biomarker may have already been found -
in a NASA scientist team's 1996 claim of fossil bacteria in a
4.5 billion-year-old Martian meteorite, perhaps the most
stunning evidence to date of extraterrestrial life. Not
surprisingly, the claim continues to spark heated controversy.
Buseck and McCartney aim to moderate the debate by putting the
Martian life hypothesis to a very thorough test.

The group of scientists originally studying the now-renowned
meteorite - known as ALH84001 - presented a slew of findings,
including organic chemicals and "bacterium-shaped objects," that
collectively cried "life." Since then, intense scrutiny by other
researchers has shown that most of that evidence could have
resulted from non-biological processes or artifacts introduced
during study of the meteorite.

Only one of the original findings is still thought to be a
unique indicator of life: Crystals of an iron-based mineral
called magnetite. The crystals found in the meteorite are
striking because magnetite grains with similar size, purity, and
structural perfection previously have been seen only in bacteria
found on Earth. According to the NASA group's report, no
inorganic process could have produced the meteoritic crystals.
Only so-called "magnetotactic" bacteria, which form the
magnetite grains through a controlled process, can generate
these particular shapes.

Magnetotactic bacteria, common in aquatic and marine habitats,
produce and carry the magnetic crystals in a chain. The chain,
which looks like a faux backbone under a microscope, acts like a
compass as the bacterium swims along Earth's magnetic field
lines.

These crystals are at the center of Buseck and McCartney's
planned work. If bacterial synthesis is the single possible
explanation for the magnetite grains found in ALH84001, they
could be the one clear indication that life ever existed outside
Earth. But, Buseck worries, if no major holes have yet been
punched in this argument, that may be because it has not been
examined closely enough.

And when Buseck says "closely," he means it quite literally.
"These crystals are at the limit of what one can see, even with
powerful electron microscopes," he says.

At 40 to 100 billionths of a meter wide, magnetite nanocrystals
have evaded clear three-dimensional imaging. That's a problem
for the hypothesis of life on Mars, which now hinges on precise
matching of the complex shapes of the magnetite crystals from
ALH84001 and from magnetotactic bacteria.

"There are questions about how well we know the shapes of these
tiny crystals and how secure the identity is between those in
the meteorites and those in the bacteria," says Buseck.

To be able to match the crystals from the two sources with
confidence, Buseck says astrobiologists must first fulfill four
clear objectives. "What we need to do is determine the shapes in
the meteorites with high accuracy, determine the shapes of the
crystals in bacteria with comparable accuracy, demonstrate their
identity, and then somehow determine that there are no other
ways of forming such crystals. Then we'd have a tight case." Of
these four steps, Buseck and McCartney intend to test the first
three. They are studying the shapes, chemical composition, and
magnetic properties of both the meteoritic and bacterial
magnetite grains in unprecedented detail. New developments in
transmission electron microscopy, a technique in which samples
are viewed with a beam of electrons rather than a beam of light,
have only recently made such precise study of crystal shapes
possible.

Using the recently improved techniques, the team will generate
dozens of two-dimensional images taken from different angles as
well as three-dimensional holograms of each magnetite grain. The
resolution of their images will be in the range of hundreds of
trillionths of a meter.

In these efforts, Buseck and McCartney plan to continue ongoing
collaborations with fellow scientists Dennis Bazylinski (of Iowa
State University), Richard Frankel (of the California
Polytechnic State University), Rafal Dunin-Borkowski, (of
Cambridge University, England), and Mih=E1ly P=F3sfai (of the
University of Veszpr=E9m, Hungary).

Their work will provide improved data and criteria for use in
evaluating whether other magnetite grains, from meteorites or
from samples collected in outer space, have a biological origin.
Of course, ALH84001 will be the first Martian rock subjected to
Buseck and McCartney's uncompromising analysis.


    -ASU-






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                                     Re:

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:51:26 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 04:06:21 -0500
Subject: Re:


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:59:04 EST
 >Subject: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Dear All,

 >As expected, the last few days have thrown up significant heat,
 >and some light, on the ongoing Rendlesham debate.

 >It would be foolish to go into every comment made but here goes:

 >1 - We have now completed Stage 1 whereby certain information
 >has been made public. The attitudes of the Ufologists were
 >entirely predictable; whatever we produce will be derided. This
 >makes no difference to our continued efforts re; Rendlesham.

Naturally a person would realize that the attitudes of the skeptics
are also entirely predictable.

1) It absolutly can't be therefor it isn't.

2) All evidence, whether it comes up now or years in the future
all point to the existance of some "hoax" "misidentification of
natural phenomona" "stars" "balloons" "lighthouses" "birds" or
other such.

3) Should the witness, while attempting to describe what he or
she saw, use a term similar to some proasic term, (say stars)
then we are told the witness was misidentifying stars.

4) If a witness were to say "I saw a meteor blazing through the
sky." then the testimony is true and correct. If a witness says
"I saw a UFO.." we are then told how he/she really saw something
with a proasic explaination

 >2 - Ufology does not appear to be able to see outside its own
 >bubble. As things currently stand, our view is that the UFO

Nor do the skeptics

 >incident/s at Rendlesham over the Christmas 1980 period were
 >quite possibly _incidental_,_not_ central, to what followed.
 >Much of James Easton's research has been directed towards
 >witness statements, what s/he said and what he thinks s/he
 >actually saw. Some of this is very valuable and, despite his
 >debunking Penniston, Burroughs et al and writing about tractors

Its been alleged the Easton selectively quotes witness
statements. Some people have posted excerpts showing Eastons
selective quoting and the actual quotes on this list as I recall

 >in fields (there is a certain irony in the tractors story but
 >not right now....!) being responsible for the UFO incident/s he
 >still clings to the belief that something UFO-related happened,
 >if I've understood him correctly. He says that we should not
 >ignore the UFO sightings, despite having explained many of them
 >himself.

 >3 - People should not be so afraid of new theories and evidence.
 >There may not be one all encompassing explanation for what we
 >call the Rendlesham Incident.

People have been breathlessly waiting for an all encompassing
explaination for Rendlesheim...and so far the skeptics and some
of the so called UFOlogists have been asleep at the switch so to
speak.

<snip>

 >5 - Many things trouble us including the allegations that
 >Margaret Thatcher indicated that UFOs were a big issue and/or
 >that she knew anything about Rendlesham. We have a letter, dated
 >12th November 2001, from the former PM's Personal Assistant,
 >telling us that, having worked with Mrs. Thatcher for some time,
 >she is often heard to say, "you must get your facts right."
 >Furthermore, we are told that, "You should not read much into"
 >the statements about getting facts right and "You can't tell the
 >people." For Georgina Bruni to suggest that Mrs. Thatcher/her PA
 >"would say that wouldn't she" means that, in effect, Thatcher
 >cannot be relied upon to tell the truth in the first place!
 >Georgina's use of Margaret Thatcher is, therefore, is NOT
 >justified.

Did the former PMs assistant "deny" in writing the context of the book
and or Rendlesheim?

 >6 - Given the vague and almost meaningless comments made by Mrs.
 >T we are interested to know rather more about the circumstances
 >in which these comments were made, times, dates, places etc. As
 >a journalist I would have taken either shorthand notes or made a
 >recording, especially if I was going to ask specifically about
 >UFOs.

No more vague and meaningless then any politicians speech, say Tony
Blair, GW, or Clinton.

 >Georgina Bruni, who I quite like actually but who keeps claiming
 >that I am attacking her, has made much of Mrs. T's comments and
 >wrote to me suggesting that Macmillan, her publishers, must have
 >been satisfied that she (Georgina) had accurately reflected her
 >conversation with the former PM. Our view is that Macmillan,
 >like other publishers, are only concerned to make money, to sell
 >books. They are not taking a position as regards the evidence,
 >only seeking to maximise sales via spin and clever marketing. I
 >don't blame them.

Actually publishers are quite sensitive to things that go into
books. If the former PM hasn't denied the comment and or context
in public it says alot about the truthfulness of the comment.

 >7 - Furthermore, Mrs. Thatcher's comments, as limited and as
 >vague as they were, are being taken as seriously as Ronald
 >Reagan's public comments about "an alien invasion" made during
 >the 1980s. It is doubtful that he had any hard data on aliens

This comment assumes facts not yet in evidence.

 >and, if we are to believe the cover up and conspiracy merchants,
 >wouldn't have blabbed in public anyway. Nevertheless, his
 >comments were typical of the man; written for effect and high
 >drama, trying to explain difficult concepts (nations working
 >together) in simple terms. He probably didn't even write the
 >words himself. His comments about "aliens" do no mean that
 >either he or his British opposite number were the thirteenth and
 >fourteenth members of MJ-12!

 >8 - It seems, from some quarters, that people are having a
 >problem finding data on nuclear accidents of any magnitude in
 >the UK. That is because much of the data has been in dispute
 >since the industry began in the mid 1950s. Some has been buried,
 >some covered up.

 >Nuclear power is and has been a much hotter political potato
 >than anyone is giving credit for and people forget the symbiotic
 >relationship between nuclear weaponry and nuclear power
 >generation. They also forget the political realities and
 >paranoia of the Cold War, which many of us are convinced had a
 >bearing on UFOs. The Hilda Murrell case and many others strongly
 >suggest that we are in no way party to the facts in relation to
 >the nuclear industry. In any case, people who have worked within
 >the industry have been the most dangerous to the industry in
 >highlighting its safety failures.

 >9 - We are not saying, and neither are our sources, that this
 >was a 'major leak' of material. It didn't have to be to set
 >alarm bells ringing. Simply because there is no official
 >documentation (or appears not to be) is neither here nor there.

Nor, does it appear that these sources are any more reliable
then so called intelligence community sources (whose information
is instantly vomited in the public arena on the Art Bell show by
researchers) who are billed in such terms as top drawer, totally
reliable, everything they say is truth, and so on. Point is by
your own admission what these people are telling you and
claiming apparently cannot be independently documented or
verified thus far.

<snip>

 >10 - Related to the above are other obvious nuclear-type
 >incidents, like Cash Landrum. Not the same we know, but it still
 >remains within the UFO literature, despite the fact that this
 >was not an "alien" incident. Furthermore, there are other

Nor do we actually and truly know that it was some kind of
"nuclear incident" "spy sat reentry" "test of some advanced
technology" and so on.

<snip>

 >12 - Despite the Doty affair and the scandals surrounding the
 >Bennewitz/Moore/MJ-12 hoax business we find Ufologists in the UK
 >denying that AFOSI, stationed here and with plenty of power
 >within its remit, could have had anything to do with
 >disinformation at Rendlesham. This is, quite frankly the worst
 >kind of armchair BS. Not only do people NOT know what AFOSI was
 >doing for sure, but they simply ignore the fact that the same
 >agency was using and abusing Ufology and Ufologists during the
 >period we are interested in, 1980-1983.

Likewise you have no solid, verifiable information that the
AFOSI was conducting some kind of disinformation program in the
UK.

 >13 - Ironically, we have discovered new information about UFO
 >activity in the last two weeks that indicates that something
 >intriguing was going on in East Anglia in the mid-late 1970s.

So what is it?

 >(This may not related to my personal belief that RAF Alconbury
 >was a temporary station for secret/black project aircraft in the
 >UK in the late 1970s (from 1978 onwards).)

That was always a possibility in the back of my mind, but the black
project was likely UK as the only known USAF was the stealth
and it didn't get out of the US until later.

 >14 - So, there is much for us to do, hence Stage 2, which begins
 >now. The evaluation of existing research, such as it is, and
 >researching new information, which could take some time. We
 >never expected any help from the UFO community, do not ask it
 >and, probably, do not need it although there are some notable
 >exceptions. People have privately e-mailed us saying things
 >like, "well, we think this is really good stuff but couldn't
 >admit it in on the forums!"

 >In conclusion I should say that, unlike so many people, we do
 >not have fixed beliefs about Rendlesham and it is with an open
 >mind and new facts that we look forward to the challenge of
 >presenting our considered opinions in due course.

When you unload this theory with the accompanying evidence you
can just about guarantee that it will be checked and rechecked
If the evidence stands and can take the examination great. If it
doesn't then it will just be another theory on the Rendlesheim
dung heap.


Cheers,

Robert







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                     Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:51:26 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:37:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:59:04 EST
 >Subject: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Dear All,

 >As expected, the last few days have thrown up significant heat,
 >and some light, on the ongoing Rendlesham debate.

 >It would be foolish to go into every comment made but here goes:

 >1 - We have now completed Stage 1 whereby certain information
 >has been made public. The attitudes of the Ufologists were
 >entirely predictable; whatever we produce will be derided. This
 >makes no difference to our continued efforts re; Rendlesham.

Naturally a person would realize that the attitudes of the skeptics
are also entirely predictable.

1) It absolutly can't be therefor it isn't.

2) All evidence, whether it comes up now or years in the future
all point to the existance of some "hoax" "misidentification of
natural phenomona" "stars" "balloons" "lighthouses" "birds" or
other such.

3) Should the witness, while attempting to describe what he or
she saw, use a term similar to some proasic term, (say stars)
then we are told the witness was misidentifying stars.

4) If a witness were to say "I saw a meteor blazing through the
sky." then the testimony is true and correct. If a witness says
"I saw a UFO.." we are then told how he/she really saw something
with a proasic explaination

 >2 - Ufology does not appear to be able to see outside its own
 >bubble. As things currently stand, our view is that the UFO

Nor do the skeptics

 >incident/s at Rendlesham over the Christmas 1980 period were
 >quite possibly _incidental_,_not_ central, to what followed.
 >Much of James Easton's research has been directed towards
 >witness statements, what s/he said and what he thinks s/he
 >actually saw. Some of this is very valuable and, despite his
 >debunking Penniston, Burroughs et al and writing about tractors

Its been alleged the Easton selectively quotes witness
statements. Some people have posted excerpts showing Eastons
selective quoting and the actual quotes on this list as I recall

 >in fields (there is a certain irony in the tractors story but
 >not right now....!) being responsible for the UFO incident/s he
 >still clings to the belief that something UFO-related happened,
 >if I've understood him correctly. He says that we should not
 >ignore the UFO sightings, despite having explained many of them
 >himself.

 >3 - People should not be so afraid of new theories and evidence.
 >There may not be one all encompassing explanation for what we
 >call the Rendlesham Incident.

People have been breathlessly waiting for an all encompassing
explaination for Rendlesheim...and so far the skeptics and some
of the so called UFOlogists have been asleep at the switch so to
speak.

<snip>

 >5 - Many things trouble us including the allegations that
 >Margaret Thatcher indicated that UFOs were a big issue and/or
 >that she knew anything about Rendlesham. We have a letter, dated
 >12th November 2001, from the former PM's Personal Assistant,
 >telling us that, having worked with Mrs. Thatcher for some time,
 >she is often heard to say, "you must get your facts right."
 >Furthermore, we are told that, "You should not read much into"
 >the statements about getting facts right and "You can't tell the
 >people." For Georgina Bruni to suggest that Mrs. Thatcher/her PA
 >"would say that wouldn't she" means that, in effect, Thatcher
 >cannot be relied upon to tell the truth in the first place!
 >Georgina's use of Margaret Thatcher is, therefore, is NOT
 >justified.

Did the former PMs assistant "deny" in writing the context of the book
and or Rendlesheim?

 >6 - Given the vague and almost meaningless comments made by Mrs.
 >T we are interested to know rather more about the circumstances
 >in which these comments were made, times, dates, places etc. As
 >a journalist I would have taken either shorthand notes or made a
 >recording, especially if I was going to ask specifically about
 >UFOs.

No more vague and meaningless then any politicians speech, say Tony
Blair, GW, or Clinton.

 >Georgina Bruni, who I quite like actually but who keeps claiming
 >that I am attacking her, has made much of Mrs. T's comments and
 >wrote to me suggesting that Macmillan, her publishers, must have
 >been satisfied that she (Georgina) had accurately reflected her
 >conversation with the former PM. Our view is that Macmillan,
 >like other publishers, are only concerned to make money, to sell
 >books. They are not taking a position as regards the evidence,
 >only seeking to maximise sales via spin and clever marketing. I
 >don't blame them.

Actually publishers are quite sensitive to things that go into
books. If the former PM hasn't denied the comment and or context
in public it says alot about the truthfulness of the comment.

 >7 - Furthermore, Mrs. Thatcher's comments, as limited and as
 >vague as they were, are being taken as seriously as Ronald
 >Reagan's public comments about "an alien invasion" made during
 >the 1980s. It is doubtful that he had any hard data on aliens

This comment assumes facts not yet in evidence.

 >and, if we are to believe the cover up and conspiracy merchants,
 >wouldn't have blabbed in public anyway. Nevertheless, his
 >comments were typical of the man; written for effect and high
 >drama, trying to explain difficult concepts (nations working
 >together) in simple terms. He probably didn't even write the
 >words himself. His comments about "aliens" do no mean that
 >either he or his British opposite number were the thirteenth and
 >fourteenth members of MJ-12!

 >8 - It seems, from some quarters, that people are having a
 >problem finding data on nuclear accidents of any magnitude in
 >the UK. That is because much of the data has been in dispute
 >since the industry began in the mid 1950s. Some has been buried,
 >some covered up.

 >Nuclear power is and has been a much hotter political potato
 >than anyone is giving credit for and people forget the symbiotic
 >relationship between nuclear weaponry and nuclear power
 >generation. They also forget the political realities and
 >paranoia of the Cold War, which many of us are convinced had a
 >bearing on UFOs. The Hilda Murrell case and many others strongly
 >suggest that we are in no way party to the facts in relation to
 >the nuclear industry. In any case, people who have worked within
 >the industry have been the most dangerous to the industry in
 >highlighting its safety failures.

 >9 - We are not saying, and neither are our sources, that this
 >was a 'major leak' of material. It didn't have to be to set
 >alarm bells ringing. Simply because there is no official
 >documentation (or appears not to be) is neither here nor there.

Nor, does it appear that these sources are any more reliable
then so called intelligence community sources (whose information
is instantly vomited in the public arena on the Art Bell show by
researchers) who are billed in such terms as top drawer, totally
reliable, everything they say is truth, and so on. Point is by
your own admission what these people are telling you and
claiming apparently cannot be independently documented or
verified thus far.

<snip>

 >10 - Related to the above are other obvious nuclear-type
 >incidents, like Cash Landrum. Not the same we know, but it still
 >remains within the UFO literature, despite the fact that this
 >was not an "alien" incident. Furthermore, there are other

Nor do we actually and truly know that it was some kind of
"nuclear incident" "spy sat reentry" "test of some advanced
technology" and so on.

<snip>

 >12 - Despite the Doty affair and the scandals surrounding the
 >Bennewitz/Moore/MJ-12 hoax business we find Ufologists in the UK
 >denying that AFOSI, stationed here and with plenty of power
 >within its remit, could have had anything to do with
 >disinformation at Rendlesham. This is, quite frankly the worst
 >kind of armchair BS. Not only do people NOT know what AFOSI was
 >doing for sure, but they simply ignore the fact that the same
 >agency was using and abusing Ufology and Ufologists during the
 >period we are interested in, 1980-1983.

Likewise you have no solid, verifiable information that the
AFOSI was conducting some kind of disinformation program in the
UK.

 >13 - Ironically, we have discovered new information about UFO
 >activity in the last two weeks that indicates that something
 >intriguing was going on in East Anglia in the mid-late 1970s.

So what is it?

 >(This may not related to my personal belief that RAF Alconbury
 >was a temporary station for secret/black project aircraft in the
 >UK in the late 1970s (from 1978 onwards).)

That was always a possibility in the back of my mind, but the black
project was likely UK as the only known USAF was the stealth
and it didn't get out of the US until later.

 >14 - So, there is much for us to do, hence Stage 2, which begins
 >now. The evaluation of existing research, such as it is, and
 >researching new information, which could take some time. We
 >never expected any help from the UFO community, do not ask it
 >and, probably, do not need it although there are some notable
 >exceptions. People have privately e-mailed us saying things
 >like, "well, we think this is really good stuff but couldn't
 >admit it in on the forums!"

 >In conclusion I should say that, unlike so many people, we do
 >not have fixed beliefs about Rendlesham and it is with an open
 >mind and new facts that we look forward to the challenge of
 >presenting our considered opinions in due course.

When you unload this theory with the accompanying evidence you
can just about guarantee that it will be checked and rechecked
If the evidence stands and can take the examination great. If it
doesn't then it will just be another theory on the Rendlesheim
dung heap.


Cheers,

Robert






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                          Filer's Files #47 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:10:46 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

IT'S A WONDERFUL WORLD WITH SKIES OF BLUE AND CLOUDS OF WHITE
AND EVEN SOME UFOs. They have been reported in New York, New
Jersey, North Carolina, Georgia Wisconsin, Missouri, Texas,
Arizona, Idaho, Oregon/Washington, California, Canada,
Argentina, and Chili.

GIVE THANKS: Our world changed on September 11, I ask for your
prayers for the sick who write us and our country and the world.
Give thanks with a grateful heart; give thanks to the Holy one
who gave his Son. And now let the weak say I'm strong and the
poor say, I am rich for what the Lord has done. This is a
decisive time of hatred and war, at Thanksgiving its time to
pray, give thanks, and reflect. Prayer can heal sickness and
help you personally a great deal. The Bible says, "If my people
who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and
seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear
from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and remember there is someone out
there watching.

ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
civilization."

PRIME MINISTER BLAIR REVEALS EVIDENCE AGAINST AL QAEDA

LONDON -- The British government has announced that in an
unbroadcast video tape made last month, Osama bin Laden declared
that his al Qaeda network "instigated" the attacks on the World
Trade Center and Pentagon. Bin Laden's video states, "if
avenging the killing of our people is terrorism, let history be
a witness that we are terrorists." Bin Laden made the video on
October 20 for secret distribution to al Qaeda members, but
British intelligence learned of its contents. Prime Minister
Tony Blair said in an address to Parliament that Bin Laden
admitted the attacks, saying, "It is what we instigated, for a
while, in self-defense. And it was revenge for our people killed
in Palestine and Iraq. Bush and Blair don't understand any
language but the language of force. Every time they kill us, we
will kill them, so the balance of terror can be achieved." The
British government did not release the video. It is interesting
to note that during Congressional Iran Contra Hearings fifteen
years ago, Lt. Col. Oliver North warned that the terrorist Osama
Bin Laden had threatened him and his family and in his opinion,
"He is the most evil person alive that I know of."

LEONID METEOR STORM!

Sunday morning I was one of many who watched the Leonid meteor
storm light up the early morning sky at 5:00 AM. It was the best
show in some 35 years. There were hundreds of meteorites making
the most exciting display, I have ever seen. A combination of
clear skies and no moon made for a great show.

NEW YORK CIGAR

PLEASANTVILLE -- On November 11, 2O01, at 11:20 PM the witness
saw a very large cigar shaped object traveling very fast. The
witness reports, "I was looking at the sky while my dogs got
their nightly exercise. Very dim lights traveling across the sky
caught my peripheral vision. There were 4 or 5 of them that came
from a long object traveling south very quickly at about 60
degrees above the horizon. It was silent. I could see the
lights for 4 or 5 seconds then lost it in the glare from the
Ford dealership lights. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, NUFORC
www.UFOCENTER.com Reporting Hotline:(206) 722-3000

NEW JERSEY CIGAR SIMILAR EARLIER REPORT

CARNEYS POINT -- At 12:35 PM, a veteran police officer and
private pilot, accompanied by a legal professional saw a
brownish black cylinder shaped object flew over their vehicle at
250 feet altitude on May 18, 1996. The sighting lasted five
seconds before it vanished. One 50 feet long cylinder shaped
object, dull brownish black in color, with a metal tail
structure, crossed S.W. to N.E. across dual highway at moderate
speed over our vehicle. The sighting lasted about five seconds,
after which object vanished. The leading edges of structure
appeared to display the dull pattern typical of "re-entry burn"
on the space shuttle. Local weather verified to be: Bar: 29.99,
Visibility: 2 miles, ceiling 800 feet, Temp: 66 Deg. F, Dew
Point: 63 F, Hum: 90%, Wind: SSE 6 mph. Thanks to Peter B.
Davenport, NUFORC, www.Ufocenter.com.

NORTH CAROLINA FLYING TRIANGLE

SHILOH -- On November 11, 2001 at 6:20 PM a large triangular
shaped object with large blue lights suddenly made a quick
u-turn and hovered a mile away. The witness reports, "My husband
and I were driving and as we approached an intersection near a
small airport. There was a large triangular shaped object very
close to the ground slowly moving over the intersection. We
drove toward the object and as we got closer to about 30 feet
away, we could see three large blue lights (one in each corner).
It suddenly rose up and made a fast u-turn. In less than five
seconds it was gone, quickly heading the other way. About three
miles from the intersection, my husband and I looked back and it
seemed to be a hovering bright light at or near the airport. The
strangest thing about the whole ordeal was there was no sound at
all. There was a car about two car-lengths in front of us who I
am sure saw it too. Believe me, you couldn't miss it. Thanks to
Peter B. Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting Center
www.UFOCENTER.com

OKLAHOMA FLASHING RED LIGHT

CHICKASAW STATE PARK, SULPHUR -- On November 10, 2001, from the
south the witness observed what appeared to be a small, round,
white light moving fairly slowly in all directions at 9:35 PM.
At first it was behind trees but then it increased it's altitude
and moved above the trees. The witness thought the light was no
more than 100 yards away. Another witness thought it was no
closer than a mile. At first its movement was slow and steady,
moving toward the west while traveling up and down. It looked
more like it was floating as apposed to flying. After a minute
or two, it picked up speed moving toward the west or northwest.
At this point, I grabbed my binoculars and lost visual contact
for a few seconds. When I found it in my binoculars, it was
traveling at a high rate of speed and had a flashing red light
on its tail, like an airplane. One of the witnesses confirmed
that I was indeed still observing the same object. It now moved
and looked like an airplane. I couldn't see wings or anything
like that but like I said, it now had a flashing red light on
its "tail." When the red light would blink, the front portion of
the object appeared to have a slight tint of yellow to it. I
noticed that I could hear a jet in the far distance but have no
idea if it was coming from an actual airplane or from this
object. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, Director National UFO
Reporting Center www.UFOCENTER.com Reporting Hotline: (206)
722-3000

GEORGIA ABDUCTIONS

Researcher John Thompson has some thoughts on abductions
related to the new Terrorist situation. One of the possibilities
why so many abductions have taken place across America during
the last decade is to weaken the resolve and resistance of
America. As you know, I've advocated for a long time that
abductions are really about "mind-control" and not the fanciful
extraterrestrial kidnappings that many entertain. We have to
assume that along with the general population an equal
percentage of our nation's leaders have been abducted and
"conditioned" over the years. Listening to recent talk radio
shows some callers have expressed outrage that our response to
the 09/11/01 slaughter has been far too politically correct.
Coalition building and sensitivity to concerns of Muslims have
over-ridden a true and strict military retaliation against the
Islamic killers responsible for much of the world's terrorism
over the last quarter-of-a-century. Diligent mind control and
"programming" applied to selected individuals in the United
States could do much to defeat America and the West. While
abductions have occurred worldwide, their frequency and
dispersion seems to pale in comparison to the estimated millions
of Americans that have been abducted. Indeed, there is almost no
data to suggest that abductions are numerous in the Third
World. The target of the abductors seems to be more of where the
real power of the world resides: America and Western Europe.
While culture, language difficulties, and lack of investigators
in the Third World may keep reports of abductions low, I
personally have heard of  none from the Modest and South-central
Asia while hearing of some in Africa, which is far more
improvised. America is the leader of the non-Muslim world. To
many Muslims, America is the enemy and the leader of the
infidels; that is, non-believers. It may well be that we are
engaged in a grand Crusade and abductions are simply another
weapon being employed by demonic entities to give an edge to an
otherwise weaker enemy. Thanks to Researcher John Thompson
gingerjohn@peoplepc.com

MISSOURI SILVER CIGAR UFO

KANSAS CITY -- On November 10, 2001, James A. Tutt Jr. saw a
silver cigar shaped UFO flying over East 87th Street toward the
Kansas City limits near the over and under pass area of I-435.
It was 11:00 AM, and the sky was clear. James was using his
powered + binoculars and noticed an object standing still east
of him at about 25 to 30,000 feet altitude. The object continued
hovering over the I-435 until he lost sight of it. The cigar
was silver color and may have had fins on it, but it was too
high to tell. This is not the first time that a similar object
was seen. On September 27, 2001, there was a sighting of another
cigar shaped craft with several fins on its side. The craft was
the size of a small house. Thanks to James Allen Tutt Jr
tutt64110@hotmail.com MUFON -Field Investigator kcmo area
id#7606 and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

TEXAS LIGHTS

HOUSTON -- F Beau Spikes reports he and his wife saw
unexplainable lights in the sky each night from October 30, to
November 4, 2001, on several nights, two other friends also saw
them. The friends were located five miles away nearer to Spring,
Texas. We saw many light patterns from it with all colors. It
would hover from side to side and up and down. We saw it for 30
or 45 minutes then went to bed, at 11:00 PM The second night we
saw it again, 35 degrees up a little to the south from previous
night. We watched for 2.5 hours, until 2:00 AM. The third night
there was only one; I observed it from 12:00 to 12:30 AM. Fourth
night there were three UFOs a little more south in a pattern
like a check mark. They took turns being "active." We watched
from 7:30 to 9:30 PM. In addition, my friends my neighbor too
had binoculars so I could see the colors as little bit better.
There were brilliant colors of every shade, but mostly blue,
purple, and green. Last night was a full moon too, and these
"devices" still were plainly visible but the stars were not. We
called the local FOX weather desk; they reported no meteors or
weather balloons etc. These sightings in my opinion are
definitely mechanical in nature. I don't know what they are but
stars don't jiggle and bobble, stars don't appear to flash
symmetric and lit appendages with alternating colors. Stars
don't often change shape and have straight-line emissions and
stars or planets don't change patterns in a group within a
couple of hours. This is why my wife and I were convinced we
were  watching something bizarre. Seeing that they appear (from
my perspective) near a major international airport, I doubt it
would be foreign technology. Thanks to F Beau Spikes
(Beauknowz@yahoo.com) who writes, thanks for your reply, I would
like to be contacted by a MUFON investigator. In addition, I
have already entered a report at the form on the MUFON main
page.

ARLINGTON ALIEN ACCOUNT -- A college student worked in a paint
store frequented by a painter who claimed to have alien
encounters. He was a peculiar kind of guy who lived, alone, in a
small house outside the city limits. "He often talked about
being visited by beings from other planets and strange
futuristic technology that they had showed him and space ships
and the like. The painter and college student became friendly
as the painter began to talk about his leaving this earth to go
to live on another planet. They showed him all their strange
machines. The painter told the college student that he had no
family and that before he left this earth to go and live on
another planet, he wanted to deed his house and land to him.
The student told him (with tongue in cheek) that, "sure," before
he left for outer space, he could deed his house to him. The
painter transferred his house, and land and all his assets to my
business associate. In addition, within a matter of days from
doing so, the painter called him and told him to come to a
certain field on his property at a certain time that very
evening. He told him that he would be leaving this earth with
the men from outer space tonight, never to return, and that the
student would be able to see him leave on the space ship if he
would be at the field at the appointed time. The student drove
up to the man's property, parked his car, and walked to the
particular field that the painter had specified. As he
approached, he could see a strange kind of green mist-like light
coming from behind the rise of earth ahead of him. When he
reached the edge of a berm he saw a saucer shaped craft hovering
just a couple of feet or so above the ground and glowing green.
The painter appeared and looked over at him, and acknowledged
his presence with a wave. An opening appeared in the saucer and
the painter entered.

The craft shot straight up in the air and in a matter of only
seconds was a bright dot that just disappeared. After a while,
when he realized the painter was really not coming back, he and
his wife and children moved into the house that the painter had
deeded to him. They did not stay very long. He said, "You
wouldn't believe all the strange, eerie things that went on in
that house." He added that some of the technology (having to do
with computers and nanotechnology) that exists today are things
that the painter had told them about that seemed so far-fetched
at that time. He is a very no-nonsense kind of person, which
makes me believe his story even more. Talk at you later,
ufopi@aol.com (name removed) Mike_Harman @rocketmail.com

ARIZONA GOLD UFO

GLENDALE -- Rick reports seeing what appeared to him as a UFO
on November 6, 2001. He says, "I just witnessed the best thing
ever." I have never seen one before only read about them on
different sites. However, the object I saw at about 9: 25 PM,
was lower than most aircraft in the area and shooting across the
sky at a high rapid rate much faster than the aircraft here.
The object was round, the bottom looked like a reddish gold
color, no lights and no sound. I ran downstairs, from my
apartment, went to the parking lot, not 3 to 4 seconds later and
the object was gone. I read your site and other's and has had
many mixed feelings until now. Now, I myself have become a
believer. I thought you would like to know my story; I'm very
excited about the entire event and wanted to share this
extraordinary night. Thank you for your time. Thanks to Rick
Glendale at Eichbaum74, and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

IDAHO FLYING WING

NAMPA -- D. Kennedy reports a flying wing entered our line of
site as we were watching the Leonid meteor shower on November
18, 2001. It flew directly over us then off to the south at 2:45
AM. It made "NO" noise, and had "No" lights. There was a faint
temperature glow on the leading edge of the wing, tip to tip.
Altitude was impossible to tell. If it were higher than 5,000
feet the craft would have been extremely large. It did resemble
a B-2 Stealth bomber, but without the sharp angles. All the
edges were rounded, more like a boomerang. My wife observed it
as well. The color was dark, possibly black with a rounded
boomerang shaped flying wing with temperature glow on leading
edge of wing. The height and speed are unknown. The higher it
was? The larger and faster it would have been. Joe Trainor
writes, "Here's a sighting from Idaho. However, it sounds less
like a UFO than some sort of flight test of a prototype "flying
wing" aircraft of our U.S. Air Force. I was amused to see that
this event took place in Nampa. In 1883, this town was the site
of a very unusual Fortean event. A man named M.A. Kurz began
drilling a well, and the sump pump spit up a human figurine of
incalculable age from a depth of 300 feet below ground. Part of
the "doll" had begun to metamorphose, showing an age of hundreds
of thousands of years. Good luck with The UFO Store. Thanks to
Joe Trainor Masinaigan

CALIFORNIA DISC

Last Sunday, November 11, 2001, my mother and I saw a UFO. It
was about four minutes after seven when my mother called me out
of my room to our back porch. She pointed out an object that at
first looked like a bright star. Then it started to move very
slowly and we began to see more detail. There was a red intense
red aura type of light surrounding the object just enough to
make out a shape with binoculars. This thing was far away at
least a thousand feet up, and kind of a disc shape with a black
mass to it. It appeared then it would disappear for about 4 to 6
seconds. Then a red ball object came out of the lighted end and
seemed like it dropped like a flare after you shot in the sky. I
can tell I never been so excited I finally saw one after all
these years of looking in the sky. Thanks to RT

OREGON TV NEWS REPORTS ON UFOs

PORTLAND -- The 10 o'clock KPTV News reports on November 15,
2001, includes video film of alleged UFOs. -- The Pacific
Northwest is no stranger to the UFO phenomenon. For years, Mount
Adams, in south central Washington, has been a hub for UFO
activity. Mount Adams is home to what some call UFO's and others
call naturally occurring lights or satellites. Hundreds of
people have claimed to see the lights, and one man who lives
near the mountain even claims to have contact with the
extraterrestrial beings that are behind the lights. When James
Gilliland built his home just outside Trout Lake, Washington, he
had no idea it sat right in the middle of a UFO flight path. He
and hundreds of other who frequent his 70-acre property near
the mountain believe the lights are UFO's. Gilliland has
recorded over 15 hours of video of the strange lights. Gilliland
also claims he has had direct contact with the inter-dimensional
spiritual beings who control what he calls light ships. "These
are very advanced beings technologically, spiritually we have
to rise to the occasion," said Gilliland. Others say the strange
lights are just natural occurring nocturnal geo-thermal lights
or satellites. OMSI planetarium director Jim Todd says the
images on James Gilliland's video look like ordinary satellites
to him. "I can understand their excitement cause they see
something moving across the stars. I've seen a lot of
satellites space station shuttle and their fun to watch they
really are," said Todd. More than 30 years ago, scientists from
around the country began documenting the strange light
phenomenon. In 1972, "The Investigation of Nocturnal Light
Phenomena at Toppensh, Washington" was released. The report
outlines several encounters, such as the following: "The light
moved so fast it gave the impression of a streak. It would
appear stationary for a moment and then almost instantaneously
appear some distance away." Now, over thirty years later, there
are still no clear answers to the mysterious lights, but
Gilliland does say the aliens have a message for all of
humanity. "We need to clean up our consciousness. Clean up our
environment, raise up, and lead a spiritual way of life." Thanks
to darkwynnter@att.net
http://www.oregons12.com/news/local/story.asp?content_id=3D775291
rd

CANADA THREE CYLINDER UFOs

ONTARIO -- Paul wrote I told my father was visiting me last
week and I showed him the on line video of the Disclosure
seminar. He reminded me of his unexplained encounter he had.
This encounter happened a few years ago while he was working far
up in Northern Canada. He was a hydro station inspector. He
spent many nights awake looking at the skies and wolves.  He is
an amateur photographer and was looking to get shots of the
wolves feeding at night, anyway he was gazing at the perfectly
clear mid winter night, when he noticed three objects in the sky
that were quite high in elevation. They were side by side and
the middle object was longer then the outside two. The 3 objects
were cylindrical shaped, joined together by small joints, like
balls on a string. Then one of the outside objects split off,
flew a wide circle around the sky, and then shot off out of
sight. The middle larger object and the smaller object beside
turned lengthwise and seem to face end down towards him. They
had very bright lights. They held this position for a while then
separated and shot out of sight. He has never told anyone of his
encounter for fear of ridicule. He is a very honest person and
knows aircraft as he was flying in helicopters all the time in
the north. He does have a photo of the objects, which I have
seen and are amazing. We both firmly believe we are not alone,
how can you not with the billions of solar systems out there.
Its time for governments to admit it. Thanks to Paul Cook in
Toronto.

ARGENTINA STRANGE FAST STROBING LIGHTS

BUENOS AIRES -- An air of confusion and suspicion surrounds an
hour-long incident in the night skies over the South Atlantic
Argentine airspace. The Argentinean newspaper Clar=A1n, reports a
Lear Jet carrying Lt. Governor Daniel Gallo, encountered
unidentified bright flashing lights in the sky over Patagonia.
Piloted by commander Mariano Zalotti and copilot Mario Beban,
the aircraft had left Jorge Newbery Airfield at 20.50 hours,
November 12, and set course for the airport at R=A1o Grande. The
jet was traveling at a height of 10,000 meters when they saw a
nearby blinking lights in the darkness. The "estroboc=A2picas"
[strobe] lights appeared on the left side of their aircraft.
"Nevertheless, I never thought that it could be a foreign
military airplane invading our airspace," the three occupants of
the aircraft discounted the lights as being either a UFO and
theorized that they could have belonged instead to a British
aircraft, whose base is at Mount Pleasant, in the Falkland
Islands." When flying over the city of Commodore Rivadavia, 75
miles out to sea [Strait of Magellan G-fs], we observed for the
first time the flashing lights that followed a short distance,
flying the same map course to a height superior and of greater
speed", Commander Zalotti said later. "Then we flew at a
cruising speed of 900 kilometers per hour." A British Embassy
spokesman in Buenos Aires denied that it could have been an
aircraft from that country and described the claim by the
pilots as "speculation without sense." There was confirmation
that no other Argentinean aircraft had been flying in the area
at this time. Thanks to FarShhores@canada.com, Wilmar Caballero
Published: 11/14/01
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2001-11-14/p-02001.htm

CHILE UFO VIDEO TAPED

The following message was received by Inexplicata from Rodrigo
Cuadra Salazar of Chile's TOC (Tecnologia, OVNIS y Ciencia)
Channel 13 of the Catholic University of Chile broadcast a UFO
filmed by Eric Martinez, a member of the GEO group, on Saturday,
November 10, 2001. The UFO was filmed over the hills surrounding
the La Florida commune. A curious detail is that one object was
filmed by day, and another object was filmed at night. They
could be one and the same. " Thanks to Scott Corrales Institute
of Hispanic Ufology and INEXPLICATA--The Journal of Hispanic
Ufology

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come help
our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at
high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768
Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.
Regards, George Filer

The local Fire Station sign reads, "May the angels protect You!





UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                            Like A Rollin' Stone

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 09:30:06 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:21:03 -0500
Subject: Like A Rollin' Stone


How does it feel? To be on your own. Like a complete unknown...
like a rollin' stone...


There is a down side to the abduction experience. It's called
depression. Some call it post traumatic syndrome. Others call it
just plain painful in ways unimaginable. I call it worse than
all that.

The abduction experience is for me, a life long series of
unnatural events, culminating in some strange inability to
comprehend just what it was that happened. It is completely
unexplainable in our paradigm. And much worse, it is a horridly
complex mix of feelings, emotional and physical feelings, which
do not belong together in any normal circumstance.

When such occurs, it's like having to undergo surgery for the
umpteenth time. You know exactly what is going to happen all
over again. Ever had that experience? As a young man I was
burdened with having had multiple surgeries on the exact same
area. Every time it was required, I was nearly in tears. I knew
what I would have to suffer all over again. I knew the pain. I
remembered the indignities of having to be in the hospital under
those circumstances. Etc.

The abduction experience is much like that. Only worse. Worse,
because it happens over, and over and over again. Without let up
and like the jingle for that old Candid Camera program, "When
it's least expected ..." This can be torture of the worst kind.
It is for most.

But there are some redeeming features to this scenario. For one,
it engenders in me at least, an anger against my abductors which
is most cathartic. I merely hate their guts. That hatred is
strong, it assists in letting the charge go, much like a
lightning rod. Into the night goes the charge, into the ground,
shorting the strike. Me.

But some feel their pain within, to the extent that it becomes a
part of them. They attempt to get it out of their systems along
with the fear, the panic, the terror, the strangeness, the
expectation of that which they absolutely know for certain will
come again. This is a burden which no one can bare, without a
catharsis of some kind. Those who for whatever reason, are
unable to catheterize those terrible feelings and emotions are
bound to suffer a life of sudden and intense anger, of substance
abuse and of a level of instability which at most times is
bizarre.

And no one is immune. No one. The most intellectual of us, the
one who assumes the posture of calm thoughtfulness, the one who
is stoic and mild in his demeanor, even this person is not
immune to the angst.

With me, I occasionally become depressed. Usually it is when I
perceive something has happened to me (I've had an experience)
or when I recall some event which for whatever reason, has
eluded me for a long time. And in writing of my experiences,
this recall is one of the best _and_ one of the worst things
which could happen.

It is the best because I recall things which have been lurking
within for many years. Recently I recalled something which I had
not remembered since 1954 or so.

The worst, because along with the recall of the perception come
the exact feelings, the emotions, all the terror and the pain
(if any during that perception) which was felt at the time. It
all comes rushing in to a mind already burdened with hidden
memories and which has reeled from previous recalled events.

Can you imagine remembering when you were a kid and fell down
and broke your arm or leg? But not just the memory of falling
off your bike or being hit by a car, but actually feeling ...
_feeling_ ... the pain exactly as you did then ... feeling the
terror, calling your mommy, screaming when the EMT's had to get
you into the ambulance? Can you imagine reliving all those
feelings in a rush?

This is the experience which I've had. And without hypnosis. In
fact, this is the experience which has been explained to me by
some of those who have had the regression. The only difference
between this writer and those I've polled, is that this writer
has little doubt that no one has influenced my memories. Notice
I used the word "little." The doubt is always there. Otherwise I
would be a little ferblungit as well as fresh fallen off the
turnip truck.

This is the life of one who thinks he is an abductee. I wanted
you people who perceive that you are researchers on this List,
to take a glimpse into my world. It is a world in which I, just
like you, must work, play, have a family and deal with the
vagaries of life. Add to that mix, the other feelings, memories
and emotions which I've outlined, and there you have a life made
much more difficult by the combination and addition of these
extra burdens.

Now, ever wonder why some of us go a little bonkers now and
again? Or need to howl with the dogs? Or create creatures like
Gesundt to take the pain away for just a little while? Ever
wonder how a man can recreate his life with those horrible
memories, the recall, etc., and still function?

I do and I am not an alcoholic, drug abuser or even a drinker. I
am merely afraid. All the time. And the shrinks I've seen think
it's just phobia.

And the check is in the male.

To be successful in life with these things over your shoulders
makes you look and feel like superman.

Dr. J. Jaime Superman Gesundt and my dog Pepe, he lives in there
with me too.





UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                 Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:46:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:58:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions - Bruni


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:59:04 EST
 >Subject: Rendlesham Stage 1 Conclusions
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Tim Matthews wrote:

 >5 - Many things trouble us including the allegations that
 >Margaret Thatcher indicated that UFOs were a big issue and/or
 >that she knew anything about Rendlesham.

Margaret Thatcher said exactly what I quoted her as saying,
nothing more, nothing less. Rendlesham was not even mentioned.
Please read my book where the conversation is explained in more
detail.

 >We have a letter, dated 12th November 2001, from the former
 >PM's Personal Assistant, telling us that, having worked with
 >Mrs. Thatcher for some time, she is often heard to say, "you
 >must get your facts right."

Well, there you have it then. I have never worked for Thatcher
so I don't know what words she so often uses. I just know that
she used those exact words when she answered my questions
concerning the UFO problem.

 >Furthermore, we are told that, "You should not read much into"
 >the statements about getting facts right and "You can't tell the
 >people."

Really!. Well, did Thatcher's PA offer any explanation why her
boss should use these words (some she so often uses) and yet you
are told not to read too much into them. So when Thatcher talks
to people in government or otherwise, telling them that they
must have their facts, is she not to be taken seriously?

And isn't it _very_ interesting that the PA did not deny that
Thatcher said these words to me, especially "You can't tell the
people". Even more to the point is the subject matter which
prompted these responses. UFO's.

 >For Georgina Bruni to suggest that Mrs. Thatcher/her PA
 >"would say that wouldn't she" means that, in effect, Thatcher
 >cannot be relied upon to tell the truth in the first place!
 >Georgina's use of Margaret Thatcher is, therefore, is NOT
 >justified.

I do not agree with that statement from you. I simply meant that
there is no way that Margaret Thatcher would admit to that
conversation. I did not say that she would deny it ever took
place. You have to understand the repercussions if she admitted
to it, which I doubt she would ever do. I certainly respect her
for not denying it though.

 >6 - Given the vague and almost meaningless comments made by Mrs.
 >T we are interested to know rather more about the circumstances
 >in which these comments were made, times, dates, places etc. As
 >a journalist I would have taken either shorthand notes or made a
 >recording, especially if I was going to ask specifically about
 >UFOs.

First of all, there was nothing vague or meaningless about that
conversation, or indeed her comments. I would have thought that
needed no explanation.

The details of this event were given to my publisher and certain
respected journalists. You say that you would have taken notes
or made a recording if you were going to ask specific questions
about UFO's. Well, let me fill you in on a few facts. You have
obviously not paid attention to my book, in which I explain what
took place that evening.

I was a guest that evening at a table of lawyers. I did not talk
to Baroness Thatcher until the end of dinner. I had no intention
of discussing UFOs, I was in a conversation with her that was
very private, the conversation went on for about ten minutes. It
was only when she said: 'It's these private things that the
people don't know about that make the Conservative party so
good," that I realised that was an ideal opening to ask her to
comment concerning some interviews I had done with former
military personnel and scientists regarding back engineering of
alien technology and so on.... Because of the seriousness of our
previous conversation, and the fact that she knew I was a guest
at this very prestigious dinner, she obviously felt that she
could make these comments. So, your idea that I could have taken
notes or recorded that conversation is so ridiculous. It was not
planned! For your information, I was so amazed by what she had
said that I called Nick Pope at 2am, when I arrived home, and he
made notes.

 >Georgina Bruni, who I quite like actually but who keeps claiming
 >that I am attacking her, has made much of Mrs. T's comments and
 >wrote to me suggesting that Macmillan, her publishers, must have
 >been satisfied that she (Georgina) had accurately reflected her
 >conversation with the former PM. Our view is that Macmillan,
 >like other publishers, are only concerned to make money, to sell
 >books. They are not taking a position as regards the evidence,
 >only seeking to maximise sales via spin and clever marketing. I
 >don't blame them.

You have obviously not worked with any major publishing house.
My publisher required a great deal of information from me,
including details of the Thatcher meeting. I gave them a list of
the prestigious guests and the names of the organisers, which
included the wife of a former Minister of State for Defence. The
only thing I cannot prove is the actual content of that
conversation because my only witness is Maggie's husband, Denis
Thatcher and possibly the two Special Branch protectors that
were standing close by.

By the way, The rest of your post is also based on speculation.


Best wishes

Georgina


Out now, the paperback version (Updated) "You Can't Tell The
People". The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO
Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by Pan Books (Macmillan)
Available in all good book shops and on-line at:
www.amazon.co.uk








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                                 Two New CDs

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:06:52 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:59:43 -0500
Subject: Two New CDs



Hi All,

Just to inform you of two new CDs for sale on my web site.

Follow the links:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/WorldPhiloso.htm

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/ClassicBooks.htm


Best Regards,

Roy..







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

              Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale - 12/8/01

From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:44:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:05:39 -0500
Subject: Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale - 12/8/01



Budd Hopkins Intruders Foundation
Annual Gala Fundraiser And Art Sale

Date: Saturday, December 8th
Time: 7:30 PM - 10:00 PM
Location: Budd Hopkins Art Studio, New York City

Many members and IF supporters will remember, with pleasure, last
year's fundraiser - a combination party and art exhibition and
sale at Budd Hopkins' Chelsea studio. We're going to do it again
this year, but it will be bigger and better than ever. The party
starts at 7:30 p.m., and we will offer red and white wine, soft
drinks, coffee, hors d'oeuvres, cakes, homemade pastries, and
other treats. There will also be some surprise guests noted UFO
researchers and experiencers  plus a raffle for a desirable door
prize, an intriguing art exhibition, and a tour of Budd Hopkins'
studio and personal art collection.

As before, there are two ticket prices: a $25 contribution to IF
entitles you to join the festivities, but for those who make a
$100 contribution to IF, you not only attend the party and bring
a guest with you, but you also receive a gift of a work of art,
a painting, drawing, collage, signed lithograph, etching or
photograph, framed and ready for hanging! Many of these works
are by artists of national reputation and are worth far more
than the $100 contribution you are making to IF.

For those making the $100 contribution, you will select your
work from a wall of desirable paintings, drawings and other
artworks in the following way. When you arrive at Hopkins'
studio, you take a number from out of a hat, lottery fashion.
The lucky person who picks number one gets first choice from the
wall of artworks. Number two gets second choice, number three,
third choice, and so on. And so it is highly possible that if a
contributor receives, for example, number fifteen, that person's
first choice, the work he or she most desires might still be
available, not yet having been selected by anyone else. But in
any case, each $100 contributor is guaranteed an artwork.

Attendance will be limited to 75 people, so we recommend making
an early reservation. Reservations can be made by calling IF at
212-645-5278. Checks made out to IF for the type of
contribution you wish to make can be mailed to IF, Box 30233,
New York, NY 10011. Remember, you are making a contribution to a
not-for-profit organization whose goals you share, and whose
accomplishments you have recognized. Thus, for $100 you receive
not only a personal sense of satisfaction for having aided a
cause in which you believe, but also you and your guest will
enjoy a party in an artist's studio and you will obtain an
artwork for your home. A bargain, no matter how you slice it.

We look forward to seeing you there!

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit scientific research
organization, as well as past and future IF events? Please visit our
website=E2=80=A6

Intruders Foundation Website: www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                        Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:21:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com
 >ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

<snip>

 >Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >civilization."

<snip>

Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
evidential value to them, without documentation.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                              The MOD UFO Files

From: Mark Pilkington <mark.pilkington@ifgmags.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:07:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 16:00:27 -0500
Subject: The MOD UFO Files


Updates readers may be interested in this new article by Dr
David Clark, available exclusively at www.forteantimes.com

BRITAIN'S SECRET 'X-FILES' REVEALED
50-year-old UK Ministry of Defence UFO files made public at
last.

http://www.forteantimes.com/exclusive/DS7.shtml


All best

Mark

-------------------------------------

Mark Pilkington
Reporter/Web/Reviews
Fortean Times
I Feel Good Ltd
9 Dallington St
London
EC1V OBQ

mark.pilkington@ifgmags.com
020 7687 7004






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 24

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 331

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:19:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:44:12 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 331


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 331 -  25 OCTOBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- CISU Exhibit At The Astronomical Fair Of Milan
- UFO Photo Cards


CISU Exhibit At The Astronomical Fair Of Milan

The Italian Center for UFO Studies will have a booth (L8) at the
gathering of ASTRON (The Astronomy and Aeronautics
Exhibit-Tradeshow), which will take place at the Parco
Esposizioni di Novegro (adjacent to Milano-Linate Airport) on
Saturday 27 and Sunday 28 October.

On display at the booth will be a photographic mini-exhibit on
UFOs, books, magazines and monographsfrom the CISU; and over the
course of the two days, it will be possible to meet and interact
with various members of the Center's contingent from Lombardy.

[Collaboration by Paolo Bolognesi and Maurizio Verga.]


UFO Photo Cards

On newsstands beginning the month of October is a collection of
Edis Edition photo cards entitled "Misteri e Magie" ("Mysteries
and The Magical").

The album (costing 2,900 lire) comprises 204 photo cards
subdivided into six sections: mysteries of land, of nature, of
history, of humankind, and of space, plus an atlas of mysteries.

The UFO section consists of 30 photo cards, all related to
classic cases (Arnold, Mantell, Roswell, Socorro, Hill, Walton,
etc.).

Among the sources recommended for further research over the
Internet, the only Italian one on UFOs is the Website of the
CISU  UFO ONLINE (www.ufo.it).

[Report by Roberto Labanti.]


Collaborators on this edition: Paolo Bolognesi, Roberto Labanti
and Maurizio Verga.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing - just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:

- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- on the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org





UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Filer

From: George Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:22:57 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:28:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Filer


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com
 >>ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

 ><snip>

 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

 ><snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

Thanks for the warning. I have been discovering that there are
many quotes that are taken out of context or were never made.


Regards,

George Filer






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 24 Nov 2001 19:46:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:32:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Cameron


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com
 >>ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

 ><snip>

 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

 ><snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

On November 24, James Oberg wrote exasperated that he is unable
to find some of the famous UFO quotes that are sometimes used by
Ufologists.

In particular Oberg was puzzled by the following Eugene Cernan,
Apollo 17 Commander quote,

"I'm one of those guys who has never seen a UFO. But I've been
asked, and  I've said publicly I thought they were somebody
else; some other civilization..."

One of Oberg's long time acquaintances has suggested to me he
look at,

Chriss, Nicholas, "Cernan Says Other Earths Exist," Los Angeles
Times, January 6, 1973.

Presenting the inside story of how the U.S. Presidents have
handled the UFO situation.

http://www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/


Grant Cameron

sqquishy@altavista.com
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:06:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:56:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Aldrich


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com
 >>ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

 ><snip>

 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

 ><snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

I asked Barry Greenwood to check his clipping collection for the
article containing Cernan's quote. His answer:

The article is authentic, Jan. 6, 1973: "Cernan Says Other
Earths Exist"

    "I'm one of those guys who has never seen a UFO
    (Unidentified Flying Object). But I've been asked, and
    I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else,
    some other civilization." Gene Cernan, 1-6-1973

It goes on about his positive views on life in space and the
abundance of other civilizations.

So the quote is slightly different than given many places on the
web, but it is authentic.

Jan Aldrich








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                 Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:52:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:00:01 -0500
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:08:58 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results

 >Hello Paul,

 >Fascinating and compelling results! If I may, I'd like to ask
 >several questions. (Knowing beforehand that there may not be any
 >answers.)

 >1. How many other crop circles have been 'mapped' in this way?

 >2. Have any randomly selected (unaffected/virgin) areas been
 >mapped in order to determine if the magnetic anomalies are
 >possibly endemic to the region? It's possible that the phenom is
 >attracted to pre-existing local anomalies and not the 'creator'
 >of them.

 >It's important to try to determine which may be the case. In the
 >latter scenario (that the circle-makers introduce magnetic
 >anomalies by their circle-creating activities/intervention) it
 >makes a very strong case for the presence of some unknown kind
 >of 'technology' that may be responsible for initiating the local
 >magnetic alterations. (If) they are rapidly appearing
 >'alterations' and not in fact a pre- existing condition in the
 >area.

 >3. Thirdly and I realize most unlikely, have any crop circle areas
 >that demonstrate these magnetic anomalies been surveyed _prior_
 >to a crop circle's appearance?

 >If unaffected areas have been surveyed and mapped prior to the
 >appearance of an agriglyph, and the subsequent readings differ
 >greatly from the "before" readings, it would prove conclusively
 >that the magnetic changes are tied _directly_to the appearance
 >of a crop formation.

 >4. Have any formations that are known to have been hoaxed been
 >measured in the same way? Just as a 'control' reading. It would
 >be interesting to find out if such magnetic anomalies are
 >present in formations that are known to have been
 >man-made/hoaxed.

 >Very interesting results. In combination with the other
 >oddities; the way stalks are 'bent', genetic alterations to
 >vegetation etc. the case for, (and accumulating evidence for,) a
 >genuine, as opposed to man-made 'anomalous phenomenon' continues
 >to strengthen.

 >One more question please:

 >Have any language/philologists/code breakers tried to decipher
 >any meaning (rhyme or reason) from the agriglyphs? I appreciate
 >any time you take to respond to my inquiries. I find the whole
 >subject to be most compelling and completely fascinating. My
 >best to you, and to Collin.


Hi John,

Sorry for the few days in responding, just very busy these days
as usual. Colin or Paul Vigay would be better able to answer
these questions in terms of studies done in England. In Canada,
our studies so far have been more limited, by funding and time
(or lack thereof), etc. We have, however, documented magnetic
anomalies in some formations here over the last few years, and
other anomalies as well, including the physical changes to
affected plants and so on. I would like to pursue these areas in
much more depth as I do think they are important. One factor
that BLT has noted over the past few years is that a significant
number of formations (from studies in England) appear to be
related to underground aquifers, with more or less formations
appearing in a given year depending on the height of the water
table in that given area. I like the idea of mapping areas prior
to a formation's appearance, except that you don't know exactly
where a new formation will appear next. This is even more
difficult in Canada, where there is much more land area to cover
on the prairies, etc., even in Saskatchewan alone, than in
southern England. Some hoaxed or known man-made formations have
been mapped in this way from what I understand, with negligible
or no results, but more needs to be done. I would be interested
in doing a test formation made by one of our teams here, and
mapping it afterward for comparison as well.

I'm quite interested in the 'blur' anomaly I found on two of the
still (35 mm) photos I took over one of the formations at
Midale, Saskatchewan this summer. I call it a 'distortion' but
it looks more like one of those fuzzy spots you see on TV
sometimes to blot out someone's face, etc. to hide their
identity. Same colour as background field (or else no colour,
just opaque) and roughly circular in shape. It is beside the
formation in the photos, largest in the first one and about half
the size in the second shot. It is also in the digital video
footage taken at the same time as the still photos, just looking
through two different windows on the same side of the plane. In
the video, it moves across the field of view from upper right to
lower left in about three seconds or so. That the formation was
situated between two electrical towers in the field may be
significant? Could this be related to magnetic/electrical
disturbances, either captured on film or affecting the film
itself? Any thoughts on this would be welcome. Copies of both
the prints and video can be provided. We were flying fairly low,
within a few hundred feet at most of the ground. Not seen in any
other photos or video sequences at all except over that
formation, and only in those two photos over the formation. I
also noted that the shutter would not work on my camera whenever
I tried using the zoom lens while we were circling the patterns
in the plane. It seemed to work ok afterwards for the most part.

Re language, communication, etc., my own take is that we need to
be able to separate the genuine formations from known or likely
man-made ones, which admittedly has been frustratingly
difficult, before we can go about 'deciphering' them, otherwise
the data pool is contaminated by hoaxes, and makes any
'translation' mute for the most part. Some formations have been
more obvious religious/sacred symbolism, etc. but most are not,
and can be interpreted differently by different people (but
maybe that's the point?). Many have tried deciphering them, with
a wide range of results as may be expected.

Relating to this though, we are planning some new experiments
for next summer in Saskatchewan with BLT. The specific idea came
about during a lunch discussion with John Mack while at the
Journeys Beyond conference. Details to be worked out yet, but it
would involve a system of more specific criteria in terms of any
'responses' to what we initiate. While this seems radical to
many I'm sure, even me, I've had enough experiences myself now,
as well as others I know, that do suggest an interaction of some
kind between us and who or whatever is making these patterns,
implying there is intelligence involved somehow or that at least
our own conciousness is somehow connected to all this. The
question is how to proceed from that point, if indeed this is
the case. On a related note, relating to your area of research,
it was good to finally meet John Mack and Budd Hopkins in person
at the conference, I have a lot of respect for the work of both
gentlemen. I've also had many unusual experiences going back to
my childhood and continue today.

Btw, please note again too that I forwarded the report for
information purposes; CCCRN (formerly CPR-Canada) is no longer
directly associated with Colin/CPRI, although we still
correspond, share information, etc. Our 'split' did not have
anything to do with Colin's statements on his position of 80% of
formations in England being hoaxes which caused so much
controversy, it was simply an internal organizational change
within CPRI itself, having no more affiliate offices in other
countries.

Best,

Paul Anderson

The Eras Project
http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:15:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:05:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:06:08 -0500

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>>FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>>November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >>>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

 >>>ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

 >><snip>

 >>>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>>civilization."

 >><snip>

 >>Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >>for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >>nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >>these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >>be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >>evidential value to them, without documentation.

 >I asked Barry Greenwood to check his clipping collection for the
 >article containing Cernan's quote. His answer:

 >The article is authentic, Jan. 6, 1973: "Cernan Says Other
 >Earths Exist"

 >  "I'm one of those guys who has never seen a UFO
 >  (Unidentified Flying Object). But I've been asked, and
 >  I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else,
 >  some other civilization." Gene Cernan, 1-6-1973

 >It goes on about his positive views on life in space and the
 >abundance of other civilizations.

 >So the quote is slightly different than given many places on the
 >web, but it is authentic.


No worries mate, I'm sure the intrepid Herr O'berg will find
another strawman to sneer at.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:53:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #47 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 21, 2001, Majorstar@Aol.Com.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

 >>ASTRONAUT COMMANDER EUGENE CERNAN

 ><snip>

 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

 ><snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

Mr. Oberg,

Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
data you need.

Mr. Filer was somewhat specific in repeating the quotation,
providing a year and the LA Times. Seems simple enough to check,
if you wanted to go directly to the source. But the UFO field
has some fantastic resources of its own. Perhaps you can inquire
of Barry Greenwood or one of his associaties to query his vast
collection of newsclippings the next time a question such as
this comes up.

I understand that the burden is upon the person making the
claim; however, as I said before this seemed a simple matter to
check (as quickly proven true by the number of responses to your
message) and it is something you should have done.


Rebecca
*wagging finger*










UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:29:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >data you need.

<snip>

Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
trying to establish the consensus here.

Second, I note that NOBODY has touched the X-15 Bob White
'testimony' fraud that my investigation on original cited
sources uncovered, and details of which I posted recently? Do we
presume from this that 'silence implies consent' and that
everybody here is agreeable to posting the faked version of his
actual description of the small, tumbling, paper-shaped
doohingee he spotted outside his window? Is that the consensus,
and if not, what is anybody going to DO about it (right, other
people's mistakes are not our responsibility to correct -- you
can sense this attitude from some smarmy posts about
'how-dare-he?' question useful propaganda bites, whether
accurate or not.

Third, here's another piece of original research on another
'famous' pro-UFO quote from Wernher von Braun. Your reaction (or
lack of reaction) will be interesting.


Famous 'Wernher von Braun' UFO quotation debunked.
James Oberg

There is a widespread quotation attributed to Wernher von Braun
in 1959, apparently first printed by Timothy Good, as follows:


"We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than
we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown to
us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in
entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or
nine months time it may be possible to speak with some precision
on the matter."


This comment comes from "News Europa" Jan. 1959 and refers to
mysterious events during the re-entry phase of the Juno 2 rocket
during a test flight.

One Internet example is:

http://www.connect.net/mattvest/sciufo.htm

The reference is to the Pioneer-IV moon probe, launched by the
Army-built Jupiter IRBM with upper stages, in December 1958.

My colleague Tasillo Roemisch of Space Service Intl. in
Mittweida, Germany, went to the Deutsche Buecherei in Leipzig
and found out the following:

The magazine 'Neues Europa'(14 issues per year, all issues had
only 8 pages.) ceased publishing at the end of the sixties. Its
full title reads correctly:


Neues Europa. Das f=FChrende Weltblatt fuer alle Fragen der
kommenden Entwicklung. Verlag August Kraemer GmbH, Stuttgart
(New Europe. The leading World Magazine for all questions of the
coming development).


Roemisch checked all issues of the years 1959 and 1960 and found
out that they had been supporting a Karl Michalek who lived in
Santiago de Chile at that time and who claimed to be the
"President of the Coming World Republic Earth". He was sure that
the Venusian ET's were going to land in Berlin soon. Furthermore
the writers often wrote about the well known UFO personality
George Adamski and his associates.

Wernher von Braun was only mentioned one time, and that was in
issue no. 3 (Febr. 01, 1959) when they wrote that "Prof. Oberth,
the colleague of the German-American Wernher von Braun...
believes in the existence of extraterrestials living in the star
constallation Tau-Zeta, the Uranides."


The article footnoted by Good and so widely and trustingly
disseminated (issue no. 1, January 01, 1959, page 2) doesn't
mention von Braun at all. It read as follows. The headline was
"Sensationelle Zeichen aus dem Weltraum" (sensational signs from
outer space), and this is the sub-text:


"Interplanetarische Kr=E4fte, welche die irdischen Mond- Raketen
aus ihrer Bahn lenken" (interplanetary forces which direct
terrestrial moon rockets out of track), followed by "Russische
und amerikanische Fern- Raketen, die ihre Ziele nicht erreichen
- Demonstration der Venus- Kr=E4fte?"

(Russian and American rockets which don't reach their goals -
demonstration of the Venusian forces?)


The article itself: Saturday Dec 06, 1958. Fourth attempt of the
USA moonrocket failed. Juno 2 was hindered in an altitude of
100,000 km to fly higher and came back.

"Amerikanische Sachverst=E4ndige betonen, dass es im Weltall
Kr=E4fte gibt, welche die irdischen Raketen aus ihren
vorberechneten Bahnen ablenken, ihre Fluggeschwindigkeit
reduzieren und sie wieder in die Lufth=FClle der Erde
zur=FCckdirigieren."

(American specialists emphasize that there are forces in outer
space to mislead terrestial rockets out of their calculated
tracks to reduce their speed and to send them back to the
atmosphere of the Earth)


The author was Albert Laurent and he claimed the Russian and
Indian researchers have said about the same.

As one would expect from an Adamski-ite rag, the real science
and technology was hopelessly garbled. The American moon probes
had followed gravitational trajectories with no outside
interference suspected, even then; instead, problems with the
booster rockets put them on the wrong initial courses.

This investigation of the actual rather than the distorted
'quotation' inaccurately attributed to Wernher von Braun is not
expected to have any impact on the false versions now extant on
the WWW.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                        Re: Back-Engineered? - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:33:16 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:10:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Back-Engineered? - Kelly


Dear List and Readers,

I know Lazar has been covered in-depth before, though I still
find his alien craft very interesting. Wether his claims are a
hoax or not, the spacecraft he has brought before the world does
in many ways fit the criteria required for reliable space travel
in a spacecraft.

Looking deeply into the craft's design does show consistencies
with the sorts of requirements required for such space travel.
The one requirement that I have concluded is a most when
considering the design of such craft is the fact that you cannot
have moving parts. The moment you have moving parts the life of
that part and its reliability runs out the door.

Lazar has three cylinder type units beneath the floor as moving,
I really don t think these move at all, these three cylinders
rather just regulate the polarity and strength of the
magnetic/electromagnetic field. With the craft now in this
configuration, there are no moving parts at all. The reliability
and life of the craft is now supreme. This conclusion in itself
points to the possibility of the craft s existences. After all
the seemingly successful debunking that has been do on Lazar
himself, the craft on the other hand has stood up well to
criticism. It is if nothing else a great design, one any
designer would be proud of. If this design is just someone s
imagination they are very very good and should be working for
JPL or NASA or ME.

The craft looks like a short-range scout class vessel to me. I
cannot see this one travelling from a distant Galaxy to here, so
this brings up the question of how did it get here? By mother
ship, would seem to be the logical answer or it was built near
by.

Lazar has an official web site but it cost to join, though it
says Robert pops in for chats now and again, so I m thinking
about joining just to see if I can take this up with him
personally.

I would also like to ask him about this back engineering thing,
what could be the advantages of an alien race giving us
something like that to back engineer? That to me would be like
giving a third world country an armed atom bomb to back
engineer. There is no way we can use such a craft, even though
women fair better than men do around magnetic fields, those
sorts of levels of magnetic fields would still bring a female to
a screaming mess on the ground. So I fail to see what benefits
it is or was supposed to bring to us.

I m starting to think along the lines that this craft if it is
real is something the US has had for ages and just hasn t been
able to figure out completely. Maybe even or AA friend used to
once pilot aforesaid craft?

I wouldn t be surprised to find or learn that this was the case.
Much seems to revolve around those events and time period.
Roswell I mean.


Cheers Tophar








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                               Avebury Lights

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 04:15:26 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:12:42 -0500
Subject: Avebury Lights


Dear colleagues,

Whilst on a research trip to Wiltshire, this summer gone, I
spent some time in Avebury stones. I took a few pictures that
day, with my new Digital Camera. After getting back home, and
downloading the images on to my PC, I noticed a very odd
picture. Please click the link below to view this picture, and
it's zoom images.

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AveburyLights.htm

Your comments are welcome.


Best,

Roy..





UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:40:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:09:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

 ><snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy.

We might, on the other hand, generate understanding regarding
who's been duplicitous, canted, and suspect as a Posner type
apologist for a, until very recently, weakening party line.

 >Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda.

That's bad debating technique to be squirming obstinately
against the factual. There is evidence that would convict at a
murder trial. The Cernan expression as recorded is accurate or
not. I suspect it is accurate. This abundantly justifies your
discomfiture as evidenced by the squirm.

 >Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant?

Ahh! The inevitable leap to the absurd! Our 'agreement' with the
veracity of 'articles' is not the issue and is not required. Is
the expression in question accurate in spirit? No need to
attempt impossible agreement on the absurd.

 >Just trying to establish the consensus here.

No you're not, sir! You're here to fan the bottom, complicate
the issue, and distract from the facts, whatever the hell
_those_ things are. No, I don't think consensus is quite the
priority with you that you would like us (uh... me!) to think.

 >Second, I note that NOBODY has touched the X-15 Bob White
 >'testimony' fraud that my investigation on original cited
 >sources uncovered, and details of which I posted recently?

Conceded? Sometimes there actually _is_ a temperature inversion
Mr. Oberg... next!

 >Do we
 >presume from this that 'silence implies consent' and that
 >everybody here is agreeable to posting the faked version of his
 >actual description of the small, tumbling, paper-shaped
 >doohingee he spotted outside his window? Is that the consensus,
 >and if not, what is anybody going to DO about it (right, other
 >people's mistakes are not our responsibility to correct -- you
 >can sense this attitude from some smarmy posts about
 >'how-dare-he?' question useful propaganda bites, whether
 >accurate or not.

I wouldn't get too excited about it, Mr. Oberg. A lot of the
broadbrushed critical paint sticks to you, you front for a
suspect worldview... forgetting that I might front for an
ignorant one... regardless, I would _do_ something about my
ignorance, sir.

 >Third, here's another piece of original research on another
 >'famous' pro-UFO quote from Wernher von Braun. Your reaction (or
 >lack of reaction) will be interesting.

You're using the convenient microcosm to prove the macrocosm,
Mr. Oberg. You do that, a lot. In the aggregate, you know that
the preponderance of quality evidence demonstrates a clear need
for the serious, passionate, and conscientious, but broadbased
(of course, public)... scientific investigation of UFOs. Your
agenda is _no_ investigation. You denounce, confuse, and
repudiate investigation, sir. Your reputation precedes you.

You may be right about Werner, yet! But, so? Your explanation
does not scale up even to the little that has been found out in
50 years of nebulous investigation...

Point a finger at Rebecca and feel three waggle ominously back
at yourself... (and mine point back with some pride, if you were
wondering).

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <Steve@Konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:35:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:11:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Kaeser


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:40:33 -0600

<snip>

 >That's bad debating technique to be squirming obstinately
 >against the factual. There is evidence that would convict at
 >a murder trial. The Cernan expression as recorded is accurate
 >or not. I suspect it is accurate. This abundantly justifies
 >your discomfiture as evidenced by the squirm.

This is a tired argument that has little value. "Scientific
principals" are not defined by a majority vote, but a consensus.
I would concur that a good attorney, arguing the case forcefully
with evidence to support his contentions, could likely work to
convince a jury. But, while a jury could likely be swayed, that
doesn't by definition lend credence to the testimony. In
addition, there is ample evidence of juries that have reached
the wrong conclusions at times. IMO, the use of this analogy to
prove a point merely gives more fodder to those who are
skeptical.


Steve







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:01:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:08:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: Steven Kaeser <Steve@Konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:35:58 -0500

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:40:33 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>That's bad debating technique to be squirming obstinately
 >>against the factual. There is evidence that would convict at
 >>a murder trial. The Cernan expression as recorded is accurate
 >>or not. I suspect it is accurate. This abundantly justifies
 >>your discomfiture as evidenced by the squirm.

 >This is a tired argument that has little value. "Scientific
 >principals" are not defined by a majority vote, but a consensus.
 >I would concur that a good attorney, arguing the case forcefully
 >with evidence to support his contentions, could likely work to
 >convince a jury. But, while a jury could likely be swayed, that
 >doesn't by definition lend credence to the testimony. In
 >addition, there is ample evidence of juries that have reached
 >the wrong conclusions at times. IMO, the use of this analogy to
 >prove a point merely gives more fodder to those who are
 >skeptical.

You're right, it _is_ a bogus argument; science is not done by
proclamation or a majority vote. I'll never use that argument
that way again...

But then neither is it done with a _minority_ vote, and it is a
minority of unelected individuals that sets the tone for an
obstinate mainstream science suspiciously recalcitrant in the
extreme. Furthermore, ufological negitavism is heralded by these
mainstream apologists who get to stand on the global stage with
easy pontificating indifference while more worthy men and women
willing to follow the data where it leads languish in an
unsettled audience.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                     Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:37:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:55:22 -0500
Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 05:18:15 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:35:10 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:13:14 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: More Baloney Detection

 >>>>Source: Scientific American

 >>>>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201skeptic.html

 >>>>More Baloney Detection

 >>>>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience,
 >>>>Part II

 >>>>By Michael Shermer

 >>>>[Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >>>>(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of Science.]

 >>Hola Laroo,

 >>You propose:

 >>>How about a straw poll? I'll cast the first vote if
 >>>nobody beats me to it:

 >>>* Are there other intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos,
 >>>perhaps within our own galaxy of billions of stars? I would vote
 >>>yes with a 99% likelihood. Your vote? _________

 >>Yes.
 >>Likelihood: I'll raise you 9/10's of a percentage point to, 99.9%

 >>>* Have living beings from other stars come here in the flesh
 >>>(muck, protoplasm, tentacles or whatever) ? I would vote no.
 >>>Seems dumb to me, see above. Your vote? _________

 >>A resounding yes! My reason for saying so: they've dragged my
 >>ass out of my house. Through a wall one time, through the
 >>ceiling on another occasion.

 >>"They" (whoever/whatever) have a unique way of declaring their
 >>presence that I'd be "dumb" to forget or to deny. :)

 >>If the Universe banged on _your_ front door... would you open
 >>it?

 >Ah! Now we got two votes in, and only one dimpled chad, the "in
 >the flesh" bit.

 >I can certainly understand your reasoning!

 >I'm wondering however, if the critters seen are genuinely
 >biological as you, I, the dog and the cat are; or whether they
 >are robotic or cybernetic (not necessarily clanky-metallic mind
 >you) beings.

 >Automata like that might even be better suited to the purposes
 >of "exploring" this planet and everything on it, in gory detail,
 >if that is indeed the program.

 >Sufficiently advanced, the line between living and non-living
 >things could become quite blurred, as least as seen by us.


Hiya Larry,

I heard a lady astronomer (sorry, don't recall her name) on some
PBS special speculating about how an advanced space faring
civilization might create a race of beings that are
genetically/physically engineered for the rigors of long space
voyages, rather than going themselves. So your ruminations may
not be so far fetched at all.

I wish I knew 'who' or 'what' was behind the UFO phenomena. That
there _is_ "someone" or "something" manufacturing and piloting
those craft is beyond question for me. Maybe one day it will all
be 'common knowledge.' I only hope that that day comes during my
lifetime. I'd hate to depart this mortal coil not knowing.


Regards,

John Velez







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 332

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:41:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:57:27 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 332


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 332 -  31 OCTOBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Analysis of the =93Angel Hair=94 at Arezzo
- The C.I.S.U. Agrees to the UFOIN Code Of Ethics
- The "UFO Myth" in Bookstores
- "UFO Baby", a New Comic Strip


Analyses of the =93Angel Hair=94 at Arezzo

The rounds of investigation are still ongoing in regards to the
recent phenomenon concerning the falling of whitish filaments
last 11 October in the province of Arezzo; but for now, it has
been ascertained that the phenomenon involved additional
residents from the area, and over a time period of at least an
hour, from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m., and included various witnesses
numbering approximately ten. The filaments were also very long
(up to 5-6 meters), and fell copiously and continuously,
eventually becoming entangled in trees, on gates, and on the
ground.

Some analyses were conducted on the gathered samples, among
these an examination under the microscope of the filaments, a
colorimetric exam of their structure, and a fusion test. Exams
such as these ultimately revealed a structure that was varied,
yet prevalently polysaccharide and irregular, leading to
speculation that the filaments were of a natural and not
artificial origin,  thus contributing to dismissal of some local
fears about the possibility of industrial contaminants.

[Investigation by Massimiliano Grandi.]


The C.I.S.U. Agrees to the UFOIN Code Of Ethics

The council of directors of the Italian Center for UFO Studies
has ratified the C.I.S.U.=92s adoption of the =93Behavioral Code of
Ethics=94 reached in Great Britain by UFOIN (The UFO Investigation
Network) and adopted already by BUFORA and other UFO
associations.

The code, which identifies the rules of behavior to which UFO
investigators are bound, were originally drafted between 1981
and 1982, and thereafter emended on several occasions.

Subsequent to the code=92s publication in an Italian translation
in "UFO Forum" magazine (August 2000), deliberation has now also
taken place regarding its adoption in Italy as a code of ethics
to which all CISU members will be thereafter held, in the course
of the investigative activities of the latter.

The text may be reviewed on the C.I.S.U.=92s Internet site, at
Webpage http://www.cisu.org/etica.htm.

[Collaboration by Giuseppe Stilo.]


The "UFO Myth" in Bookstores

The religious publishers =93Il Segno=94 have just published the
volume by Stefania Genovese, =93UFO: complessit=E0 ed anomalie di un
mito=94 (=93UFO: Complexities and Anomalies of a Myth=94) (150 pages,
20,000 lire): this is an expanded reissue of the original
version of her graduate thesis  published in monographic form in
the =93Documenti UFO=94 (=93UFO Documents=94) series following conferral
upon the author by the C.I.S.U. of the 1999 Alberto Lazzaro
Award. Due to constraints at the university level, however, the
thesis was heavily modified and watered down.

The book examines, from various sides, the elements relative to
the implications which, in Ufology, encompass the human sciences
(philosophy, anthropology, mythology, sociology and
parapsychology). The preface is penned by the physicist Elio
Sindoni, while the afterward is by the English Ufologist and
writer Hilary Evans.

C.I.S.U. members who have difficulty finding it in bookstores,
may purchase the book directly through our Book Service.

[Collaboration by Stefania Genovese.]


"UFO Baby", a New Comic Strip

On newsstands beginning 26 October is the first installment of a
new monthly comic strip entitled "UFO Baby" (published by Play
Press of Rome, 192 pages,7000 lire).

It concerns a feature originally published between
1998 and 1999 in Japan (where last year, a televised
version of it was also aired).

Two teenagers observe a UFO and subsequently discover a newborn
extraterrestrial, together with its babysitter and a stroller
shaped like an Adamski-esque flying disc, which landed on Earth
due to a space-temporal distortion.

[Report by Roberto Labanti; UfoItalia, 29 October.]


Collaborators on this edition: Stefania Genovese, Massimiliano
Grandi, Roberto Labanti and Giuseppe Stilo.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:

- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:52:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rebecca


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

 ><snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the

Did someone call you lazy? Wag a finger at me all you like. It
doesn't bother me.

 >original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's >true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful'
 >as propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >trying to establish the consensus here.

Have you read the article? If I want to, I have a couple of
sources from which I could get a copy. I don't choose to. I
wasn't making the claim that the quote wasn't real. While you
didn't exactly make that claim, you certainly hinted at it.

Do you have some evidence that suggests that the story doesn't
reflect his view (at the time)? If so, quit beating around the
bush and present it.

As for the rest of your message, 'who cares'? I'm sorry, I
don't. What you posted had nothing to do with the comment I
made. I think you have and you _can_ do good work. I think you
were wrong about the Cernan quote. If you have proof that
suggests otherwise, let us know. Otherwise, why can't you admit
you made a mistake?

It is interesting that George Filer conceded he could be wrong
and even thanked you for correcting him. It would appear that
some take your word/work at face value. Hopefully, this incident
will be a lesson to all of us.


Rebecca







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.26.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:06:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:54:26 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 11.26.01


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

November 26, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
11.26.01


ASU Researchers Set Criteria For Recognizing Extraterrestrial Life
http://www.asu.edu/asunews/current_releases/extraterrestrial111501.htm

Mars Global Surveyor Snaps Record 100,000th Picture of Red Planet
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mgs_record_011121.html

Double Jeopardy: Ambitious Twin Rovers Project Could Be Cut In Half
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/rovers_jeopardy_011119-1.html

Researcher Says NASA Has Failed To Prove Case for Bacteria Fossils in=
 Martian
Meteorite
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mars_meteor_011120.html

Spotlight: Machinists to the Stars
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/solar_system/features/machinists.html

Project Echelon: Orbiting Big Brother?
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/echelon_011121-1.html

Now Anyone Can Make a Discovery
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/virtual_astronomy_011120-1.h=
tml





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                         Re: Avebury Lights - Baker

From: Dave Baker  <davbak@ic24.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:57:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Baker


 >From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 04:15:26 -0000

 >Dear colleagues,

 >Whilst on a research trip to Wiltshire, this summer gone, I
 >spent some time in Avebury stones. I took a few pictures that
 >day, with my new Digital Camera. After getting back home, and
 >downloading the images on to my PC, I noticed a very odd
 >picture. Please click the link below to view this picture, and
 >it's zoom images.

 >http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AveburyLights.htm

 >Your comments are welcome.

Hi,

After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
puddle below. The 'orbs' all appear to be 'moving' in the same
direction, and fairly close to the camera. To me, they have that
same lack of depth of the famous Salem, Massachusettes photo
that was later shown to be reflections of inside lights on the
window.

Course, that's only my opinion...


Dave Baker
YUFOS





UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:17:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:57:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Friedman


 >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600

 >>>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >><snip>

 >>>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>>data you need.

 >><snip>

 >>Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >>lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the

 >Did someone call you lazy? Wag a finger at me all you like. It
 >doesn't bother me.

 >>original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >>verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's >true
 >>opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful'
 >>as propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >>discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >>accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >>trying to establish the consensus here.

 >Have you read the article? If I want to, I have a couple of
 >sources from which I could get a copy. I don't choose to. I
 >wasn't making the claim that the quote wasn't real. While you
 >didn't exactly make that claim, you certainly hinted at it.

 >Do you have some evidence that suggests that the story doesn't
 >reflect his view (at the time)? If so, quit beating around the
 >bush and present it.

 >As for the rest of your message, 'who cares'? I'm sorry, I
 >don't. What you posted had nothing to do with the comment I
 >made. I think you have and you _can_ do good work. I think you
 >were wrong about the Cernan quote. If you have proof that
 >suggests otherwise, let us know. Otherwise, why can't you admit
 >you made a mistake?

 >It is interesting that George Filer conceded he could be wrong
 >and even thanked you for correcting him. It would appear that
 >some take your word/work at face value. Hopefully, this incident
 >will be a lesson to all of us.

 >Rebecca


Was gone for the weekend or would have chimed in sooner. I was
living in the LA area when the Cernan article appeared. Called
the journalist to see if the quote was accurate. He said it was
and referred me to NASA Houston for the transcript. The quote
was accurate. I located Cernan. The quote was accurate. He even
gave me a lecture I could have given him about UFOs and evidence
and the huge universe etc.

I would certainly agree that there are lots of phony UFO quotes
out there including some attributed to me. Each must be taken on
its own merits or demerits as the case might be.

I am a few years behind in my filing, and have moved several
times since the article appeared, so probably cannot easily lay
my hands on it now.


Stan Friedman







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                          Re: Avebury Lights - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:53 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:18:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Hale


 >From: Dave Baker  <davbak@ic24.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000

 >After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
 >- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
 >as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
 >puddle below.

Dave,

If I may, a correction on your viewing of the picture. The
'orbs' are actually not all moving the same way. Having blown
this image up to 1600 x 1200 in Photoshop, one can clearly see a
varied path of flight, movement, call it what you will. Having
had a wide audience of people view the image, some have
commneted on the aspect of the main 'Straight' light coming from
the centre of the picture.

Here is one comment on the image: Matthew Williams.

"What I find most interesting is the fact that one rises up
vertically and the others all slant to one side. This would
imply that multiple exposure theory would have to be triple
exposure, which is sounds less plausible if your camera cannot
do this"

My camera on flash has only one blip. Prior to shoot.

Also, look closely enough at the water droplet on the top of the
rock, you will see clear aspects of " heat shadow " when heat is
manifesting. The sun was behind me when I took the picture. The
dark object was not visible when I took it. Prior to taking the
picture I had the lens cover on, and it had stopped raining some
20 minutes prior to me taking the image.

Try blowing this image up in your image software, and see the
direction the small lights within the grass are taking.

Thanks for your comments on this picture Dave, it seems that if
we are not writing slanderous verbals about each other on
UpDates, then people just don't reply!


Best to you and yours for Christmas!


Roy







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                  Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:24:37 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:19:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Mortellaro


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:17:14 -0400


 >>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600

 >>>>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>>>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>>>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>>>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>>>data you need.

 >>><snip>

 >>>Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >>>lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the

 >>Did someone call you lazy? Wag a finger at me all you like. It
 >>doesn't bother me.

 >>>original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >>>verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's >true
 >>>opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful'
 >>>as propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >>>discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >>>accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >>>trying to establish the consensus here.

 >>Have you read the article? If I want to, I have a couple of
 >>sources from which I could get a copy. I don't choose to. I
 >>wasn't making the claim that the quote wasn't real. While you
 >>didn't exactly make that claim, you certainly hinted at it.

 >>Do you have some evidence that suggests that the story doesn't
 >>reflect his view (at the time)? If so, quit beating around the
 >>bush and present it.

 >>As for the rest of your message, 'who cares'? I'm sorry, I
 >>don't. What you posted had nothing to do with the comment I
 >>made. I think you have and you _can_ do good work. I think you
 >>were wrong about the Cernan quote. If you have proof that
 >>suggests otherwise, let us know. Otherwise, why can't you admit
 >>you made a mistake?

 >>It is interesting that George Filer conceded he could be wrong
 >>and even thanked you for correcting him. It would appear that
 >>some take your word/work at face value. Hopefully, this incident
 >>will be a lesson to all of us.

 >>Rebecca


 >Was gone for the weekend or would have chimed in sooner. I was
 >living in the LA area when the Cernan article appeared. Called
 >the journalist to see if the quote was accurate. He said it was
 >and referred me to NASA Houston for the transcript. The quote
 >was accurate. I located Cernan. The quote was accurate. He even
 >gave me a lecture I could have given him about UFOs and evidence
 >and the huge universe etc.

 >I would certainly agree that there are lots of phony UFO quotes
 >out there including some attributed to me. Each must be taken on
 >its own merits or demerits as the case might be.

 >I am a few years behind in my filing, and have moved several
 >times since the article appeared, so probably cannot easily lay
 >my hands on it now.


 >Stan Friedman

Hello Stan, List, Errol,

Here is a situation where NASA in their infinite lack of wisdom,
also lacks the Cajones to say the truth. Yet again. In 1966,
1967 and in 1968, whilst assigned to OAO, and with my own ears,
I listened to Courten and Sagan say the truth. In a bad place in
Baltimore. In fact, it was East Baltimore Street where them
loose womens removed their raiment. As I recall, the place was
called the Gaiety Bar and Strip Joint ... or something to that
effect. East Baltimore Street was and still is, one hummer
dinger of a Street... woof!

(sigh)

I was there only to do research on dance, as an art form, of
course!

Ahem, anyway, Sagan AND Courten both understood the value of UFO
reports and told me straight on that there was something to the
phenom. Sagan was then a believer. So was Courten. Why or
whether Sagan changed his mind or had it changed for him is
quite another question. After leaving Grumman and NASA, I went
to work for Singer Kearfott on the NAGS Polaris Poseidon
project. There, I continued to teach astronomy at Fairly
DIckenson and kept my relationship with both men until about
1975. Never once did either man change his opinion on the
subject. In fact, their interest and their knowledge grew.
Problem then was, they were becoming a lot less vociferous (in
private) about what they knew or suspected.

Another victory for the absolute Untruth, also known as "Truthus
Interuptus. The moral of this story, the moral of this song, is
that one should never be, where one does not belong.

Which in the cases of Sagan and Courten, was the Gaiety Bar and
Strip Jernt in beautiful Downtown Baltimore. A place where the
bottom end of large Coke bottles miraculously disappear ... sort
of.....


Jim







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

             Hubble Measures Atmosphere On World Around Another

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:10:11 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:22:23 -0500
Subject: Hubble Measures Atmosphere On World Around Another


Donald Savage
Headquarters, WashingtonNov. 27, 2001
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Nancy Neal
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
(Phone: 301/286-0039)

Ray Villard
Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore
(Phone: 410/338-4514)

RELEASE: 01-232

HUBBLE MEASURES ATMOSPHERE ON WORLD AROUND ANOTHER STAR

Astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope have made the
first direct detection and chemical analysis of the atmosphere
of a planet outside our solar system. Their unique observations
demonstrate it is possible with Hubble and other telescopes to
measure the chemical makeup of extrasolar planets' atmospheres
and potentially to search for chemical markers of life beyond
Earth.

The planet orbits a yellow, Sun-like star called HD 209458, a
seventh-magnitude star (visible in an amateur telescope) that
lies 150 light-years away in the autumn constellation Pegasus.
Its atmospheric composition was probed when the planet passed in
front of its parent star, allowing astronomers for the first
time ever to see light from the star filtered through the
planet's atmosphere.

Lead investigator David Charbonneau of the California Institute
of Technology, Pasadena, and the Harvard- Smithsonian Center for
Astrophysics, Cambridge, Mass.; Timothy Brown of the National
Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colo.; and colleagues
used Hubble's spectrometer (the Space Telescope Imaging
Spectrograph, or STIS) to detect the presence of sodium in the
planet's atmosphere.

"This opens up an exciting new phase of extrasolar planet
exploration, where we can begin to compare and contrast the
atmospheres of planets around other stars," says Charbonneau.
The astronomers actually saw less sodium than predicted for the
Jupiter-class planet, leading to one interpretation that
high-altitude clouds in the alien atmosphere may have blocked
some of the light. The team's findings are to be published in
the Astrophysical Journal.

The Hubble observation was not tuned to look for gases expected
in a life-sustaining atmosphere (which is improbable for a
planet as hot as the one observed). Nevertheless, this unique
observing technique opens a new phase in the exploration of
exoplanets, or extrasolar planets, say astronomers. Such
observations could potentially provide the first direct evidence
for life beyond Earth by measuring unusual abundances of
atmospheric gases caused by the presence of living organisms.

The planet was discovered in 1999 through its slight
gravitational tug on the star. The planet was estimated to be 70
percent the mass of the giant planet Jupiter, or 220 times more
massive than Earth. Subsequently, astronomers discovered that
the tilt of the planet's orbit makes it pass in front of the
star -- relative to our line-of-sight from Earth -- making it
unique among all the approximately 80 extrasolar planets
discovered to date. As the planet passes in front of the star,
it causes the star to dim very slightly for the duration of the
transit. Transit observations by Hubble and ground-based
telescopes confirmed that the planet is primarily gaseous,
rather than liquid or solid, meaning that the planet is a gas
giant, like Jupiter and Saturn.

The planet is an ideal target for repeat observations because it
transits the star every 3.5 days -- which is the extremely short
time it takes the planet to whirl around the star at a distance
of merely four million miles from the star's surface. This close
proximity heats the planet's atmosphere to a torrid 2,000
degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 degrees Celsius).

Observations of four separate transits were made by Hubble in
search of direct evidence of an atmosphere. During each transit
a small fraction of the star's light on its way to Earth passed
though the planet's atmosphere. When the color of the light was
analyzed by STIS, the telltale "fingerprint" of sodium was
detected. Though the star also has sodium in its outer layers,
STIS precisely measured the added influence of sodium in the
planet's atmosphere.

The team, including Robert Noyes of the Harvard-Smithsonian
Center for Astrophysics and Ronald Gilliland of the Space
Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, plans to look at HD
209458 again with Hubble in other colors of the star's spectrum
to see which are filtered by the planet's atmosphere. They hope
eventually to detect methane, water vapor, potassium and other
chemicals in the planet's atmosphere. Once other transiting
giants are found in the next few years, the team expects to
characterize chemical differences among the atmospheres of these
planets.

The Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) is operated by the
Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.
(AURA), for NASA, under contract with the Goddard Space Flight
Center, Greenbelt, Md. The Hubble Space Telescope is a project
of international co-operation between NASA and the European
Space Agency (ESA). The National Center for Atmospheric Research
is sponsored primarily by the National Science Foundation.

  -end-
NOTE TO EDITORS: Electronic images, illustrations, animations
and additional information are available at:
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/2001/38
and via links in
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/latest.html
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pictures.html
http://hubble.stsci.edu/go/news


  * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available automatically
by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov.
In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type
the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will
reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second
automatic message will include additional information on the service.
NASA releases also are available via CompuServe using the command
GO NASA. To unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail
message to domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the message.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                       Re: Avebury Lights - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:15:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:28:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Strickland


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:53 -0000

 >>From: Dave Baker <davbak@ic24.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000

 >>After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
 >>- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
 >>as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
 >>puddle below.

Hi Roy,

I'm fascinated with the picture. Look behind the house. There
are more little light orbs eminating from the back corner of the
house toward the bushes.


Sue






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                         Re: Avebury Lights - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:47:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:05:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Velez


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:53 -0000

 >>From: Dave Baker <davbak@ic24.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000

 >>After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
 >>- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
 >>as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
 >>puddle below.

 >Dave,

 >If I may, a correction on your viewing of the picture. The
 >'orbs' are actually not all moving the same way. Having blown
 >this image up to 1600 x 1200 in Photoshop, one can clearly see a
 >varied path of flight, movement, call it what you will. Having
 >had a wide audience of people view the image, some have
 >commneted on the aspect of the main 'Straight' light coming from
 >the centre of the picture.

 >Here is one comment on the image: Matthew Williams.

 >"What I find most interesting is the fact that one rises up
 >vertically and the others all slant to one side. This would
 >imply that multiple exposure theory would have to be triple
 >exposure, which is sounds less plausible if your camera cannot
 >do this"

 >My camera on flash has only one blip. Prior to shoot.

Hiya Roy, Dave, All,

I have to agree with Dave on this one. Camera lenses are
composed of multiple elements. The number and variety of
reflections that can (potentially) happen are almost infinite if
a stray beam or flash of light is reflected back into the lens
during the exposure. I'm sure that Bob Shell (if he's listening)
could elaborate on this multi-surface aspect of camera lens
construction and how light can get bounced around inside of
them.

"Direction" doesn't matter with lens reflections. Depending on
how many times a stray beam is bounced inside the lens assembly
reflections can appear to originate from just about any
direction. Like ehoes in a big canyon. Hard to tell which
direction the original sound came from.

And, this is just a 'suggestion' as to how the 'lights'
manifested themselves in your photo. For all any of us really
knows, you may very well have captured an image of something
truly anomalous.

 >Also, look closely enough at the water droplet on the top of the
 >rock, you will see clear aspects of " heat shadow " when heat is
 >manifesting. The sun was behind me when I took the picture.

Which means that the light can be reflected right back at the lens
from just about any reflective surfaces in the foreground.

 >Thanks for your comments on this picture Dave, it seems that if
 >we are not writing slanderous verbals about each other on
 >UpDates, then people just don't reply!

Sorry for delay in response Roy. Some of us still have to work
for a living, and time for the List can be hard to schedule when
the demands of keeping a roof over ones head and food on the
table take precedence. I looked at the pix in Photoshop the same
day you posted them. I was meaning to post sooner. Just busy
amigo. I'm sure others are just as preoccupied now that the
holiday season is upon us. Don't take the lack of responses
personally. In case you haven't noticed, the List has been
'dead' on any and all running threads. Folks are just otherwise
preoccupied at the moment. ;)


Regards,

John Velez







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                     Chilean UFO And Chupacabra Round Up

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:12:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:19:28 -0500
Subject: Chilean UFO And Chupacabra Round Up


Chilean UFO and Chupacabras Round Up

 From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net <mailto:ufomiami@prodigy.net>
11-26-1

UFOs Inaugurate Chilean Festivities in San Pedro
Source: El Mercurio de Calama

Last Friday's festivities in the Chilean town of San Pedro de
Atacama began with the strange appearance of at least 3 UFOs.
According to different testimonies given by residents of the
town, strange lights appeared in the clear Atacama skies during
early hours on Saturday.

The residents described the objects as bright lights making
strange movements, which according to them, were not typical of
normal airplanes. Local San Pedro residents who witnessed the
phenomenon could only describe them as UFOs.

Local authorities claim that they did not receive any reports
about the strange phenomenon. They also stated that these
sightings are very common in the area, so this may have not been
as relevant as previous accounts.


Bright UFO Illuminates Chilean Capitol Source: Tele 13, Chile

In light of recent declarations by high-ranking Chilean military
officers regarding the existence of ufos in Chile, another
luminous object was seen in the Chilean capitol of Santiago by
dozens of spectators. Tele 13 Journalist Rodrigo Ugarte covered
the breaking news when the strange object illuminated the clear
skies above the rouged mountains in the outskirts of the capitol
city.

Last Saturday, at approximately 10:00 PM, Eric Martinez received
a call about a strange object near the mountains of the suburban
area of Florida, near Santiago. The light was very bright and
changed colors very rapidly. The object disappeared and
reappeared numerous times in the same area. The spectacular
sighting lasted approximately an hour.

Amazingly, Eric Martinez, who is an investigator from the GEO
UFO Research Center, captured video images of a similar object
earlier during the afternoon. Martinez believes it was the same
object. "This object was about four times brighter than Venus",
said Martinez. "Furthermore, the object seemed to make sudden
and rapid vertical movements". Local residents corroborated with
Martinez's claim. According to them, they saw an object as big
as a full moon. Moments later, the object suddenly appeared to
shrink in size.

Security guards at a nearby construction site said they saw
small blue spheres or probes flying very close to the ground. "I
know the sphere that I saw was no star because it had a bright
blue color and it was about 50 centimeters from the ground",
said one of the guards. They claim that these phenomena occur
very frequently in the area.


Chilean villagers describe an alleged capture of a Chupacabras

Source: Ovnivision Chile


Chilean law enforcement agencies have conducted an apparent
successful operation to capture the legendary chupacabras
creature in the small village of Huasco, Third Region of Chile.

Due to the constant animal deaths in the area, the community of
Huasco had been very worried. Recent attacks on domestic animals
have created panic and fear among local residents. Numerous
reports of these attacks have prompted Customs officers of the
area to conduct special operations in an effort to capture the
so-called chupacabras. The purpose of the operation was to avoid
new animal slaughters.

According to several eyewitnesses, police and customs officers
were seen conducting searches and chasing an animal that was
finally captured in a cave. "Local residents heard gunshots
during the intense pursuit in the nearby village of O'Higgins",
said Darwin Godoy, a local ufo and "chupacabras" investigator.

Finally, the group of officers finished their search in a local
cave, where they captured what appeared to be a strange giant
bat. "According to descriptions, the creature was about 80
centimeters in height and it had a wingspan of approximately 1.7
meters", said Godoy.

The cave where the alleged capture took place is located near
the thermoelectric power plant of Guacolda, just south of
Huasco. Several of the eyewitnesses were employees of the
electric power plant. Residents that live nearby the local
cemetery also witnessed the operative.


Translation by Mario Andrade
Special thanks to Rodrigo Cuadra of T.O.C. Online Magazine







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                         'Angel Hair' In California

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:43:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:21:55 -0500
Subject: 'Angel Hair' In California


EBK & UpDates Listers,

Friday, November 9th, while driving in California, I experienced
a fall of what can only be described as angel hair.

I collected two samples and I was wondering if someone on the
list would be interested in analyzing one of them. Please
contact me if you feel you have the knowledge, equipment and
desire to take a close look at this very interesting material.


Ed







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 27

                 Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:43:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:24:40 -0500
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
 >Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:52:56 +0000

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:08:58 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results

 >>Hello Paul,

 >>Fascinating and compelling results! If I may, I'd like to ask
 >>several questions. (Knowing beforehand that there may not be any
 >>answers.)

 >>1. How many other crop circles have been 'mapped' in this way?

 >>2. Have any randomly selected (unaffected/virgin) areas been
 >>mapped in order to determine if the magnetic anomalies are
 >>possibly endemic to the region? It's possible that the phenom is
 >>attracted to pre-existing local anomalies and not the 'creator'
 >>of them.

 >>It's important to try to determine which may be the case. In the
 >>latter scenario (that the circle-makers introduce magnetic
 >>anomalies by their circle-creating activities/intervention) it
 >>makes a very strong case for the presence of some unknown kind
 >>of 'technology' that may be responsible for initiating the local
 >>magnetic alterations. (If) they are rapidly appearing
 >>'alterations' and not in fact a pre- existing condition in the
 >>area.

 >>3. Thirdly and I realize most unlikely, have any crop circle areas
 >>that demonstrate these magnetic anomalies been surveyed _prior_
 >>to a crop circle's appearance?

 >>If unaffected areas have been surveyed and mapped prior to the
 >>appearance of an agriglyph, and the subsequent readings differ
 >>greatly from the "before" readings, it would prove conclusively
 >>that the magnetic changes are tied _directly_to the appearance
 >>of a crop formation.

 >>4. Have any formations that are known to have been hoaxed been
 >>measured in the same way? Just as a 'control' reading. It would
 >>be interesting to find out if such magnetic anomalies are
 >>present in formations that are known to have been
 >>man-made/hoaxed.

 >>Very interesting results. In combination with the other
 >>oddities; the way stalks are 'bent', genetic alterations to
 >>vegetation etc. the case for, (and accumulating evidence for,) a
 >>genuine, as opposed to man-made 'anomalous phenomenon' continues
 >>to strengthen.

 >>One more question please:
 >
 >>Have any language/philologists/code breakers tried to decipher
 >>any meaning (rhyme or reason) from the agriglyphs? I appreciate
 >>any time you take to respond to my inquiries. I find the whole
 >>subject to be most compelling and completely fascinating. My
 >>best to you, and to Collin.

Hi Paul,

You wrote:

 >Hi John,

 >Sorry for the few days in responding, just very busy these days
 >as usual.

I've been busier than usual with web jobs myself. We have to
"make hay while the sun shines" I suppose. ;) I would imagine
that many other Listerions are equally preoccupied judging by
the small number of daily posts being submitted the last couple
of weeks. No need to explain the delay. I understand. I also
want you to know that I appreciate the time you took to compose
your thoughtful and detailed response.

 >Colin or Paul Vigay would be better able to answer
 >these questions in terms of studies done in England.

Yeah. After talking to Nancy Talbot on Saturday night regarding
the quality of the research coming from the Andrews camp I think
I'm better off talking to you. :) Nancy is a pip. The lady
speaks her mind and has a 'damn the torpedoes' attitude about
it. I like that!

 >In Canada, our studies so far have been more limited, by funding
 >and time (or lack thereof), etc.

Nancy has managed to track down 'some' funding according to her
statements Saturday night. You might want to approach those same
funding sources to finance your own research efforts. Talk to
her. What could it hurt?

 >We have, however, documented magnetic
 >anomalies in some formations here over the last few years, and
 >other anomalies as well, including the physical changes to
 >affected plants and so on. I would like to pursue these areas in
 >much more depth as I do think they are important. One factor
 >that BLT has noted over the past few years is that a significant
 >number of formations (from studies in England) appear to be
 >related to underground aquifers, with more or less formations
 >appearing in a given year depending on the height of the water
 >table in that given area.

I would imagine that many of these aquifers have been
'mapped/surveyed' over the years, and that areas that have
already been affected by crop formations could be compared to
existing survey maps. No need to even go out into the field.
Strictly an academic study using existing data. Compare
agri-glyph locations with local subsurface water surveys. Farms
(where crop circles appear) usually depend on on-site water
wells. When someone is sent out to investigate a formation they
can inquire with the property owner if they have any survey maps
of underground water sources and how they flow through the
property. Correlations will either manifest or not. Until the
grunt work of making the comparisons is done though, we'll just
never know for sure.

 >I like the idea of mapping areas prior
 >to a formation's appearance, except that you don't know exactly
 >where a new formation will appear next. This is even more
 >difficult in Canada, where there is much more land area to cover
 >on the prairies, etc., even in Saskatchewan alone, than in
 >southern England.

I know. I had sites like Avebury in mind when I made the
suggestion. Farms and areas that experience crop circle
formations from year to year. It would be easier to 'pre-map'
such contained areas and have a shot at a crop circle forming at
a later date when you're dealing with a much smaller over-all
area of real estate.

 >Some hoaxed or known man-made formations have
 >been mapped in this way from what I understand, with negligible
 >or no results, but more needs to be done. I would be interested
 >in doing a test formation made by one of our teams here, and
 >mapping it afterward for comparison as well.

If you do, please let us know on-List. It would either make or
break the case for 'artificially' or 'mechanically' induced
magnetic anomalies in connection with circle making. If a hoaxed
circle presents the same set of magnetic anomalies we'd still
have a conundrum, but it would prove to be much less
'paranormal' in nature.

 >I'm quite interested in the 'blur' anomaly I found on two of the
 >still (35 mm) photos I took over one of the formations at
 >Midale, Saskatchewan this summer. I call it a 'distortion' but
 >it looks more like one of those fuzzy spots you see on TV
 >sometimes to blot out someone's face, etc. to hide their
 >identity. Same colour as background field (or else no colour,
 >just opaque) and roughly circular in shape. It is beside the
 >formation in the photos, largest in the first one and about half
 >the size in the second shot. It is also in the digital video
 >footage taken at the same time as the still photos, just looking
 >through two different windows on the same side of the plane. In
 >the video, it moves across the field of view from upper right to
 >lower left in about three seconds or so. That the formation was
 >situated between two electrical towers in the field may be
 >significant? Could this be related to magnetic/electrical
 >disturbances, either captured on film or affecting the film
 >itself? Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

You should compare notes with Roy Hale who recently got pix of a
similar nature in Avebury. It's a current thread on the List.
Jump on in. :)

 >Copies of both the prints and video can be provided.

As an experienced graphics professional I would be interested in
studying the pix. Contact me privately and tell me how I might
secure copies for further study.

 >We were flying fairly low,
 >within a few hundred feet at most of the ground. Not seen in any
 >other photos or video sequences at all except over that
 >formation, and only in those two photos over the formation. I
 >also noted that the shutter would not work on my camera whenever
 >I tried using the zoom lens while we were circling the patterns
 >in the plane. It seemed to work ok afterwards for the most part.

Many others report strange effects when taking photos inside of
recently made formations. They too report that their equipment
seems to work just fine once outside the affected area.
Interesting.

 >Re language, communication, etc., my own take is that we need to
 >be able to separate the genuine formations from known or likely
 >man-made ones, which admittedly has been frustratingly
 >difficult, before we can go about 'deciphering' them, otherwise
 >the data pool is contaminated by hoaxes, and makes any
 >'translation' mute for the most part. Some formations have been
 >more obvious religious/sacred symbolism, etc. but most are not,
 >and can be interpreted differently by different people (but
 >maybe that's the point?). Many have tried deciphering them, with
 >a wide range of results as may be expected.

It would be really neat to turn loose a team of philologists and
code breakers on this question. In a 'better world' maybe. Hope
you secure the funding you need to continue and to advance your
own studies.

 >Relating to this though, we are planning some new experiments
 >for next summer in Saskatchewan with BLT. The specific idea came
 >about during a lunch discussion with John Mack while at the
 >Journeys Beyond conference. Details to be worked out yet, but it
 >would involve a system of more specific criteria in terms of any
 >'responses' to what we initiate. While this seems radical to
 >many I'm sure, even me, I've had enough experiences myself now,
 >as well as others I know, that do suggest an interaction of some
 >kind between us and who or whatever is making these patterns,
 >implying there is intelligence involved somehow or that at least
 >our own conciousness is somehow connected to all this.

Yep. In addition to myself you should talk to Bill Hamilton
about this aspect of the phenom too. I have first-hand
experience with an unidentified flying object (apparently)
responding to my own thoughts. It gave me the willies then, and
talking about it is still hard because of my own incredulity
that such things should be possible. But then there you are. If
it's happening, then it needs to be considered as a real
possibility and investigated. You have to go where the evidence
leads you regardless of your own dogma's or prejudices eh. :)

 >The
 >question is how to proceed from that point, if indeed this is
 >the case. On a related note, relating to your area of research,
 >it was good to finally meet John Mack and Budd Hopkins in person
 >at the conference, I have a lot of respect for the work of both
 >gentlemen. I've also had many unusual experiences going back to
 >my childhood and continue today.

Write to me privately Paul. I'd be interested in hearing them.
And yes, both Budd and John, (Dave Jacobs too) are extremely
bright and interesting people to spend time with and interact
with. Especially Budd who _loves_ to talk and ruminate about the
subject. It was an education for me to spend all those years
working with him. We'd spend hours together sometimes just
travelling to and from speaking engagements and it was like
sitting in a classroom dedicated to UFO and abduction related
studies/information. Over time he poured an encyclopedia of info
into my head about his own cases and research. His own and that
of others. It would just flow out of him like running water. An
education I couldn't have 'bought' if I'd wanted to. The more
time you get to spend around those guys the more you learn. Time
well spent if you ask me. ;)

 >Btw, please note again too that I forwarded the report for
 >information purposes; CCCRN (formerly CPR-Canada) is no longer
 >directly associated with Colin/CPRI, although we still
 >correspond, share information, etc. Our 'split' did not have
 >anything to do with Colin's statements on his position of 80% of
 >formations in England being hoaxes which caused so much
 >controversy, it was simply an internal organizational change
 >within CPRI itself, having no more affiliate offices in other
 >countries.

Yeah I got the unedited version of that from Nancy on Saturday.
She tells it like it is. Nothing wrong with that my friend. It's
the way I do business myself. ;)

Warm regards, best of luck in your work, and thanx for all the
time and labor you invest on our behalf. (Keeping us informed)


John Velez







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

               Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 02:21:10 -0500
Subject: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary


In an August 30, 2001 Dr. Steven Greer made the following statement:


"Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
particular astronaut had during his career been in possession of
a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of evidence
related to UFOs.

It is something that if disclosed would clear and definitive.

This astronaut described how he had approached and worked
directly with President Clinton's Secretary of Defense William
Cohen to look into and retrieve from classified projects this
specific piece of evidence -  of that which he had all the
specific details... the words used by this astronaut to me were
'there was an inordinate large amount of money and personal time
by the Secretary of Defense William Cohen was spent to locate
this evidence, and he was never given access to it.'"


The identity of the astronaut is Gordon Cooper. That fact is
confirmed in a September 13, 2001 Disclosure event in Salem
Oregon.

http://disclosureproject.org/audiogallery.htm

The event involved a UFO landing film, which Greer had mentioned
in an earlier lecture.

Greer met with Cooper at the International Platform Association
speakers convention in Washington in August 2001, where they
were both presenting.


Grant

Presenting the inside story of how the
U.S. Presidents have handled the UFO situation.

http://www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/

Grant Cameron
sqquishy@altavista.com







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                   Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:21:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:23:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Velez


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 'Angel Hair' In California
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:43:07 -0800

 >EBK & UpDates Listers,

 >Friday, November 9th, while driving in California, I experienced
 >a fall of what can only be described as angel hair.

 >I collected two samples and I was wondering if someone on the
 >list would be interested in analyzing one of them. Please
 >contact me if you feel you have the knowledge, equipment and
 >desire to take a close look at this very interesting material.


Hi Ed,

Contact Nick Balaskas at York University. I will send you his
e-mail address privately. Keep us posted please.  ;)

Regards,

John Velez






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                        Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:45:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:27:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee


 >From: Dave Baker <davbak@ic24.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000

 >>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Avebury Lights
 >>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 04:15:26 -0000

 >>Dear colleagues,

 >>Whilst on a research trip to Wiltshire, this summer gone, I
 >>spent some time in Avebury stones. I took a few pictures that
 >>day, with my new Digital Camera. After getting back home, and
 >>downloading the images on to my PC, I noticed a very odd
 >>picture. Please click the link below to view this picture, and
 >>it's zoom images.

 >>http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AveburyLights.htm

 >>Your comments are welcome.

 >Hi,

 >After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
 >- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
 >as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
 >puddle below. The 'orbs' all appear to be 'moving' in the same
 >direction, and fairly close to the camera. To me, they have that
 >same lack of depth of the famous Salem, Massachusettes photo
 >that was later shown to be reflections of inside lights on the
window.

 >Course, that's only my opinion...

See http://brumac.8k.com and click on 'Papers' and scroll down
to 'The Orb Phenomenon'







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                      Re: As The World Turns - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:44:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:29:48 -0500
Subject: Re: As The World Turns - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:50:59 EST
 >Subject: As The World Turns
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >A little levity yet again, if Errol permits.

<snip>

 >It is with the saddest heart I pass on the following: Please
 >join me in remembering a great icon - the veteran Pillsbury
 >spokesman. The Pillsbury Doughboy died yesterday of a yeast
 >infection and complications from repeated pokes in the belly. He
 >was 71.

<snip>

 >Doughboy rose quickly in show business, but his later life was
 >filled with turnovers. He was not considered a very "smart"
 >cookie, wasting much of his dough on half-baked schemes. Despite
 >being a little flaky at times, he even still, as a crusty old
 >man, was considered a roll model for millions.

 >Toward the end it was thought he would rise again, but alas, he
 >was no tart. Doughboy is survived by his wife, Play Dough; two
 >children, John Dough and Jane Dough; plus they had one in the
 >oven. He is also survived by his elderly father, Pop Tart.

 >The funeral was held at 3:50 for about twenty minutes.


Finally gone, eh?
Now the secret can be told.
The Doughboy was no Man of La Muncha.
He was an ALIEN!!!!
Didn't you notice that pale complexion, those large eyes
and slender limbs? Well, maybe not so slender.....

Doughboy had a reverse implant (human implant into an alien)
which acted as a form of shortening thereby keeping him to a
small size (several inches).

Alas, he shall not rise again.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:35:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Gates


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

 ><snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this

So if it is a "direct quote" of Cernan and Cernan has not denied
it in 28 years, nor disavowed it, does it still count as useful
propaganda? What this sounds like is any potential 'Pro-UFO
quote' is considered useful propaganda. Of course to the
'debunking' crowd, any quote by Phil Klass, Menzel and Oberg
could also be considered useful propaganda.

<snip>

 >Second, I note that NOBODY has touched the X-15 Bob White
 >'testimony' fraud that my investigation on original cited

So, what does that have to do with the subject matter of the
email on Cernan??

 From everything I have seen and read, Jim screwed up, and won't
admit that he screwed up. Instead of saying "Houston, we have a
problem....." using this logic, the Astronauts should have said
something like "Well what about that problem with such and such
back in 1958..."

As to the alleged Von Braun quote, I couldn't care less. I don't
use the quote, and would be suspicious of any quotes both pro
and con on the Internet so it means nothing to me. Naturally if
it was a debunking quote, whether it was false or not, that
wouldn't matter to the debunking crowd... after all it can't be
so therefore it isn't.....



Cheers,

Robert







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                        Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:45:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:27:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Maccabee


 >From: Dave Baker <davbak@ic24.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:25:14 -0000

 >>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Avebury Lights
 >>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 04:15:26 -0000

 >>Dear colleagues,

 >>Whilst on a research trip to Wiltshire, this summer gone, I
 >>spent some time in Avebury stones. I took a few pictures that
 >>day, with my new Digital Camera. After getting back home, and
 >>downloading the images on to my PC, I noticed a very odd
 >>picture. Please click the link below to view this picture, and
 >>it's zoom images.

 >>http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AveburyLights.htm

 >>Your comments are welcome.

 >Hi,

 >After examining the picture - and it is interesting, by the way
 >- my guess is that the 'orbs' are some kind of reflection, such
 >as dust motes, airborne seeds (like dandelion) or even from the
 >puddle below. The 'orbs' all appear to be 'moving' in the same
 >direction, and fairly close to the camera. To me, they have that
 >same lack of depth of the famous Salem, Massachusettes photo
 >that was later shown to be reflections of inside lights on the
window.

 >Course, that's only my opinion...

See http://brumac.8k.com and click on 'Papers' and scroll down
to 'The Orb Phenomenon'







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                         Doubt About Life On Europa

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:16:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:16:59 -0500
Subject: Doubt About Life On Europa

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/11_21_01europa.html


UA Study Casts Doubt About Life On Jupiter's Moon Europa


MARI N. JENSEN
Citizen Staff Writer
Nov. 21, 2001

A study by two University of Arizona planetary scientists shows
the icy crust covering Jupiter's moon Europa is thicker than
some scientists had hoped, making it less likely the moon
harbors life.

Europa is a target in the search for extraterrestrial life
because scientists think an ocean lies under its layer of frozen
water.

"Where there is liquid water, there is the possibility of life,"
said University of Arizona planetary scientist Elisabetta
Pierazzo.

The study by Pierazzo and co-author Elizabeth Turtle shows the
ice crust is at least 2 1/2 miles thick. Some scientists had
thought the crust might be less than a mile thick.

Because sunlight and organic material penetrate thin ice more
easily, scientists suggest the thinner the ice, the more likely
Europa's ocean harbors life. A thick ice layer also would make
it harder for a space probe to explore Europa's underwater
world.

Turtle said her team's finding is a good first step in resolving
the thickness controversy.

"We can't get maximum, but we can get a minimum," she said.

Jupiter, its great red spot and four moons are shown by Galileo.
Europa, whose icy crust is being studied by two University of
Arizona experts, is the moon second from the top.

Slightly smaller than our own moon, Europa is the fourth largest
of Jupiter's 16 known moons.

Images of Europa taken by the Galileo spacecraft show its
surface has large impact craters and at least six have small
peaks in the center. The peaks formed within minutes after a
comet smashed into the planet, much as slow-motion photographs
of a rock tossed into a pond show a central splash of water
upward in addition to the spreading circles of waves, Turtle and
Pierazzo said.

But in a watery surface, the central splash subsides. On a solid
surface, the material pushed up by such an explosive impact
remains. So Turtle and Pierazzo decided to calculate how deep
the ice had to be for central peak craters to form on Europa.

By running computer simulations of comet impacts, the team found
that the craters with central peaks had to be formed on ice at
least the 2 1/2 miles thick.

The team's report is in the Nov. 9 issue of the journal Science.
Turtle and Pierazzo's next step may settle the
thin-crust-vs.-thick-crust debate.

The two plan to study the rest of the crater creation process.
Turtle said preliminary results suggest that Europa's ice may be
about six miles thick.


UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                    Raelians - "First to Clone Embryos"!

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:50:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:50:10 -0500
Subject: Raelians - "First to Clone Embryos"!

http://news.excite.com/news/r/011126/18/news-science-clone-canada-cult-dc


Canadian Cult Says It Was First to Clone Embryos


Updated: Mon, Nov 26 6:25 PM EST

By Robert Melnbardis

MONTREAL (Reuters) - A U.S. company's claim to have cloned a
human embryo is simply a case of "been there, done that" for a
Canadian UFO cult linked to a secretive cloning company, the
movement's leader said on Monday.

Claude Vorilhon, the 54-year-old former sports writer now known
as Rael who founded a religious movement based on the premise
that life on earth was genetically created by visiting
extra-terrestrials, said on Monday he welcomed the claim by
Advanced Cell Technology Inc. that it had cloned a human embryo.

"Very happy, and a bit amused because we did that some time
ago," Rael told Reuters.

Worcester, Massachusetts-based Advanced Cell Technology caused a
uproar on Sunday when it announced it had cloned a human embryo
as part of its research to perfect a technique in which embryos
could be used as a source of valuable stem cells to treat
diseases.

Researchers at the company said they had grown several embryos
using eggs from several women and the DNA from another woman's
cumulous cells, those found in the ovaries that nourish the
eggs. One of the embryos survived long enough to divide into six
cells.

While some experts questioned the scientific veracity of the
company's claim, others observers, from U.S. President George
Bush to the Vatican and women's rights groups, condemned the
research.

Not so for the Quebec-based Raelians, who openly support
Clonaid, a company headed by cult member Brigitte Boisselier, a
44-year-old French biochemist determined to produced the world's
first cloned baby. That is why Clonaid, which purports to have
established a new research laboratory in an undisclosed country,
will not be making announcements on its progress in the project,
Rael said.

"The first communique that Clonaid will make will be to announce
the birth of the baby, but not for such a small thing," he said,
referring to Advanced Cell Technology's announcement.

Clonaid was forced to abandon its U.S. laboratory after the U.S.
Food and Drug Administration warned in March that it would not
allow experiments on cloning humans. But Rael said the research
continues at Clonaid.

"They set up a laboratory in another country where it is not
prohibited and things are going forward," Rael said.

Clonaid already has more than 3,000 individuals seeking to clone
a person, and 55 women, all "Raelians," who are prepared to
carry the cloned embryos to term, Rael said.

"Of course, Clonaid's goal is not to make a monster or a
handicapped child, which would be terrible. The first child must
be perfect, let's say in a health that is recognized as
perfect," he said.

Rael added that opponents are actually more worried that
Clonaid's first cloned baby would be "beautiful, perfect and in
good health."

In an even more science-fiction twist, Clonaid eventually would
like to clone fully grown individuals in a sort of
"accelerated-growth process" where memories and personality
could be "downloaded" to the clone from the donor, Rael said.

"That is what interests us -- it is to be able to live eternally
through several bodies," he said.

Although Clonaid and the Raelians want to produce the world's
first cloned person, they also support the prospect of using
cloned embryos to harvest stem cells to combat a range of
diseases including cancer, he added.


UFO UpDates thanks

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                          Re: Avebury Lights - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:10:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:15:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Avebury Lights - Hale


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Avebury Lights
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:15:08 -0700

 >Hi Roy,

 >I'm fascinated with the picture. Look behind the house. There
 >are more little light orbs eminating from the back corner of the
 >house toward the bushes.


Sue,

Yes, this picture has fascinated a lot of people, and I ask
people to really look at the light formations within it. If you
also look at the top of the tree where the dark object is, just
above the tree, you can also see some kind of " heat distortion"
similar to the one above the rock.

Here is the link again for those who missed it:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AveburyLights.htm

And for those people who are saying that this is just rain on
the camera lens, then why out of over 30 images taken on that
trip to Wiltshire - Avebury and other parts, was this the only
one with those lights on? I took several pictures before this
one and after, about 10 pictures in about 12 minutes?

Thanks for your comment Sue, much appreciated.


Best,

Roy..






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:19:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'. When the
documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
accept the newspaper account as authentic. The connection
between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

As to the X-15 ("White's UFO") fraud, or the von Braun false
quote, now suddenly we hear that people never believed stuff on
the Internet anyway, so no big deal. Hmm, isn't this
inconsistent?

Yet when I suggested that without documentation _I_ wouldn't
believe something just because it was on the Internet, I wind up
whipped with Klassical ad hominems. Isn't consistent logic such
a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

I'll continue to dig into the accuracy of stuff widely published
on the Internet, out of this curious obsession with getting real
facts right and false facts exposed and documented. I guess that
obsession is sort of crazy to many people! <again, grin>







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                  Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:36:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:27:23 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Maccabee


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 'Angel Hair' In California
 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:43:07 -0800

 >Friday, November 9th, while driving in California, I experienced
 >a fall of what can only be described as angel hair.

 >I collected two samples and I was wondering if someone on the
 >list would be interested in analyzing one of them. Please
 >contact me if you feel you have the knowledge, equipment and
 >desire to take a close look at this very interesting material.

I don't have chemical analysis equipment.

I hope you placed the material in a sealed glass jar, even if it
i already inside a plastic bag.

Angel hair has a way of disappearing. But even if it becomes
invisible in the jar there may be a gaseous residue that could
be detected by a gas analyzer. Whatever you have it in, don't
open it. It shuld only be opened in a controlled surrounding or
by sticking in a needle and sucking out some of the gas inside.








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                  Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:08:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:37:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary

 >>The identity of the astronaut is Gordon Cooper.

I believe Grant must be correct on this. Cooper's story about
the film he inspected at Edwards AFB in May 1957 is in his book
'Leap of Faith' in some detail. He reports that the object
landed in front of the witnesses.

The account of every other person involved with that incident --
the two primary witnesses, the officer who did the blue book
interviews (Lt. Hubert Davis), the actual report filed with Blue
Book (which included the film), the account  of the case
described by James McDonald before Congress in 1968 -- describe
only a light drifting past the observers, with no landing. One
witness, plus Davis, stated unequivocably that Cooper had no
connection with the sighting at all, was not in the chain of
command, and in fact was never noticed by them. I have also
talked with the engineer who was Cooper's boss during this
interval.

As regards this discrepancy between Cooper's version and
everybody else's, I offer no explanation.

My 1983-1984 investigation of this story is at:

http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

and I'd be happy to receive comments on-line or off-line.

My report on Cooper's book's story about a Gemini space camera and secret
photos of Area-51 is at:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

and may provide some insight into the 1957 incident versions
discrepancies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                 Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 28 Nov 2001 10:33:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:44:51 -0500
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey


 >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:43:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 2000 UK Magnetometer Survey Results
 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:52:56 +0000

<snip>

 >Yep. In addition to myself you should talk to Bill Hamilton
 >about this aspect of the phenom too. I have first-hand
 >experience with an unidentified flying object (apparently)
 >responding to my own thoughts. It gave me the willies then, and
 >talking about it is still hard because of my own incredulity
 >that such things should be possible. But then there you are. If
 >it's happening, then it needs to be considered as a real
 >possibility and investigated. You have to go where the evidence
 >leads you regardless of your own dogma's or prejudices eh. :)

Did I see my name mentioned? Ahhh, yes. First-hand experiences
with UFOs responding to my thoughts. It happened several times
over a 3-year period in the 1950s. That is what convinced me
that I was in contact with something unearthly. That is what
gave me the idea with Skywatch to take a pro-active approach.
The telepathic interaction hasn't happened much since the 60s.


Bill Hamilton







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                          Filer's Files #48 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:35:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:21:47 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #48 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 28, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs HAVE BEEN REPORTED: in New York, Florida, Mississippi,
Tennessee, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, California, Canada,
Mexico, and Italy. Our satellites are picking up hundreds of
uncorrelated targets each day that may include UFOs.

NEW PLANET SPARKS HOPES FOR ALIEN LIFE

Tim Radford, science editor of the Guardian reports that:
"Astronomers have used the Hubble space telescope to detect the
atmosphere of a planet circling a star 150 light years away."
The discovery reawakens the dream of detecting extraterrestrial
life in other star systems. A new breed of astrobiologists is
convinced that life on any distant planet would leave its
signature in the air -- just as methane and oxygen in the
Earth's atmosphere would be a clue to any passing aliens that
the planet was inhabited. "Only a decade ago, planets outside
the solar system were still in the realm of science fiction,"
said David Charbonneau, of the California Institute of
Technology, who led the study. "Searching for a star's unseen
planetary companion was crazy, and hoping to see its atmosphere
was even crazier." Now planets are discovered monthly, and even
their atmospheres are in reach, he said. "Suddenly, discussing
searches for Earth-like planets seems quite reasonable." But he
discovered no sign of life. The atmosphere of the planet that
circles the star HD209458, in the constellation Pegasus, is
rich in sodium. The planet itself is likely to be an
inhospitable gas giant, like Jupiter. More than 80 planets have
now been identified around distant stars. Thanks to Joe Stefula
and Guardian 11/28/01

Editor's Note: Dr. Robert Trundle author of "UFOs: Politics,
God and Science" from Northern Kentucky University notes that
this is an important step in the search for extraterrestrial
life. Astronomers have made the first direct detection of the
chemical composition (sodium) of the atmosphere of a planet
orbiting a distant star.

INTEL ADVERTISING ALIENS

In case you missed it, the computer company Intel has been
running two different ads for its Pentium 4 featuring those
Gray Aliens. The commercials are shown during Prime Time.
Thanks to Robert M. Collins.

EUGENE CERNAN, APOLLO 17 COMMANDER

Debunker James E. Oberg who wrote the article concerning
astronauts never seeing an actual UFO in "The Encyclopedia of
Extraterrestrial Encounters" questioned the statements
attributed to Astronaut Cernan in last week's Filer's Files. My
quote was that: Eugene Cernan who was the commander of Apollo
17 that flew to the moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in
1973 he said, about UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and
I've said publicly I thought they (UFOs) were somebody else,
some other civilization.

"I must admit I'm unable to get on the Internet due to computer
problems, so I was unable to find an exact copy of the article.
Jan Aldrich helped me out by finding the article in the Los
Angeles Times, January 6, 1973, Chriss Nicholas, "Cernan Says
Other Earths Exist," Jan says, "The article is authentic."
Cernan says, "I'm one of those guys who has never seen a UFO
(Unidentified Flying Object). But I've been asked, and I've
said publicly I thought they were somebody else, some other
civilization." Gene Cernan goes on about his positive views on
life in space and the abundance of other civilizations. So the
quote is slightly different than given many places on the web,
but it is authentic. Thanks to Jan Aldrich and James Oberg.

NEW YORK TEARDROP SHAPED UFO

BROOKLYN -- The witness was in a park on November 15, 2001, I
noticed that the clouds were being blown by the wind, and from
behind the clouds I noticed a white glowing sort of teardrop
shaped craft. Behind the teardrop craft was a little blue dot,
tailing it. It seemed to be attached to the teardrop or was
being pulled by a blue glowing beam. It was moving pretty fast,
but it seemed to circle the whole park, which is at least four
miles in diameter. Then it just left it made no sound at all.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

FLORIDA FLYING V

EDGE WATER -- On November 9, 2001, the witness was outside
aligning his satellite dish, when he looked up, and right above
him was something like a lit up flock of flying birds. This was
impossible because there were no lights shining up and it was
dark at 8:20 PM. The lights moved closer to each other and
moved away making a V-shape. It was like a big bird flapping
it's wings. The witness said, "This is the first time, I've
ever seen anything like this and it didn't make a sound either.
The thing that freaked me out the most was that there were
three planes, immediately after I saw the V- shaped craft. I
don't even believe in UFOs, but I'm not sure now."

PANAMA CITY BEACH -- At 2:55 AM, the witness saw a glowing
orange chevron shaped object fly rapidly across the sky from
west to east on November 9, 2001. The witness is a sane, sober
51-year old professional who has always been skeptical of UFO
sightings. He says, "Last night I saw something, which I cannot
explain. I fell asleep early in the evening and had to walk my
dog at 2:55 AM. I decided to look for meteors when I noticed a
glowing pale orange "shape" rapidly moving east, very faint to
be barely discernible. The orange light seemed almost
translucent and was shaped like a boomerang or chevron, except
the leading edge was straight across as opposed to a "V" shape
on the front edge. It was perfectly symmetrical across its
width. I had difficulty determining the true size, altitude, or
speed but it covered 100 to 120 degrees in 5 to 7 seconds. This
seemed to be an unbelievable rate of speed. I would judge the
width of the object to be 5 or 6 times a full moon's diameter.
The length of the object from front to rear was perhaps 1 X a
full moon's diameter. The object made no sound. I am 100%
convinced the object was not a natural phenomenon such as a
meteor or a cloud. Peter Davenport reports he spoke at length
with this witness, and we found him to be exceptionally
credible. We suspect this was a very interesting sighting,
similar to others that have been reported to NUFORC recently.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

GEORGIA AERIAL OBJECT A GLIDER

LA GRANGE -- Researcher John Thompson says today I thought I
saw a rare daytime UFO. It went back and forth slowly;
left-to-right, right-to-left repeatedly, for about five
minutes. It seemed to stop on a dime and reverse direction. I
took several photos of the object as it, occasionally,
flickered brightly with the reflection of sunlight. Guess what?
It was a glider catching thermos! I called the La Grange
Airport to confirm. If I had a video, however, shot from afar
everybody would swear, as another person with me who was
watching agreed, that no plane could do that. Gliders can
because they have an unbelievable low stall speed. I now know
what the darting and reversing object in the famous 1994 Mexico
City UFO video was probably a glider. It was shot from a
similar distance as it went in and out of a cloud. Thanks to
John Thompson

MISSISSIPPI DARK TEARDROP UFO

VICKSBURG -- My lady friend and I had gone to the Dollar
General Store on November 16, 2001. She was baby-sitting two
children who were with us. My friend went into the store and I
sat in my truck with the kids and waited for her. It was about
5:30 PM, and the sun was going down. The sky was very clear and
a light color, but the ground was almost as dark as night. The
four year old child pointed to the sky and said that she saw a
light in the sky, which I'm sure, was the crescent moon. When I
looked up to see what it was, I saw the moon and at a distance
was a dark object shaped like a plump Hershey's Kiss, or
perhaps a teardrop with a slightly flattened-out bottom. It was
black in an appearance with a pointed top and seemed to have an
extremely faint aura around it that my friend also noticed.
There were no lights on it, and it made no sound. It was east
of us in the direction of the Mississippi River. Several others
also sighted the UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

TENNESSEE FLYING TRIANGLES

MEMPHIS -- The witness reports, "I was on my way to work,
traveling eastbound on Winchester Road on November 2, 2001,
just outside of the Memphis city limits." There was low cloud
cover covering the sun at 5:00 AM. I noticed a long, black
object traveling south at high speed beneath the clouds. The
object was traveling far faster than any flock of geese could
fly. There appeared to be a black "smudge" behind the object. I
at first thought this might be a black vapor trail, but the
"smudge seemed to move in tandem with the object but didn't
linger in the sky. As we got closer I saw an acute triangular
shape with blurred indistinct edges. It moved across the sky at
high speed and was out of sight within seconds. I'm a
professional with two college degrees and skywatch planes
regularly at Memphis International Airport. I've never seen
anything to compare with what I saw this morning.

MEMPHIS -- Two weeks later a Flying Triangle was spotted on
November 14, 2001, by the same witness. He says, "Leaving for
work at 5:28 AM, I stopped to pick up the newspaper in our
driveway. A definite and very well defined and dark lengthy
shadow flitted across the driveway." There was no sound
associated with the passing of this shadow. The shadow startled
me so I jumped into my car instead of picking up the paper. My
first impression was that something huge had flown beneath the
streetlight and cast the shadow. This explanation was quickly
discarded due to the physical impossibility of such an event,
but I was puzzled by what I saw. It appeared that our cat had
been startled as well by the passing shadow because she ducked
for cover under a hedge.

At 5:35 A.M., an hour before sunrise, and I am traveling east
on Winchester Road going to work early to complete a project.
The usual Fed Ex jets are flying past on their flight paths to
Memphis Airport. When I passed the Nike plant, I noticed a
"plane" that seemed much lower than normal for this part of the
landing pattern. It definitely caught my attention. It appeared
to be hovering in place at a spot just east of the Nike plant
on the north side of Winchester Road. This area is about five
miles away from my home. I slowed down and came almost to a
stop to get a better look at the "plane." It was my perception
that it was not moving at all. As I studied it, I realized that
there was no strobe light on it. It also did not cast its
lights ahead of it, as you would normally expect to see the
lights of a jet beamed straight ahead. Instead there were three
white lights aimed downward. It was then that I perceived that
I was looking at a triangular-shaped craft with three bright
white lights, one at each corner, and a single red light in the
middle of the underside of the craft.

The craft was the size of a fifty-cent piece held at arm's
length and a quarter to a half-mile away hovering in place. It
seemed to be hovering over an empty field. I got quite a good
look at it for a period of time I would estimate as long as two
minutes. I continued heading slowly eastward until I lost sight
of the object as I passed some trees. It was then that I
resolved to make a quick U-turn, go back, and get another look.
I found a place about two blocks farther on to turn around, and
I raced back to look at the object again. There was no trace of
it whatsoever! I searched the sky for several minutes in vain.
The object had quite simply vanished. This craft was lower than
the passing jets, and the lights appeared to be of a different
intensity. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

MICHIGAN DIAMOND SHAPED UFO

BOYNE CITY -- At 8:00 PM my husband and I sat down to watch TV
and I heard a loud rumbling sound outside on November 15, 2001.
I looked out the window and did not see anything. The next
morning our office gal told me she had heard the loud noise at
the same time, and saw a flying object over her home heading
west that then came back east over her home a second time.

BOYNE CITY -- A second witness also reports hearing a loud
rumbling noise at 8:00 PM the same night and went to her back
door to listen. Thinking it was a jet plane she went back
inside but the noise continued getting louder, so she went out
again. She only saw stars, and went back inside and asked her
husband, son, and son's friend, "Can't you hear that?" They
thought it was just a slow jet but went outside to look. They
rushed back in, and said, "Come out and see this!" The witness
states, "We could see this huge diamond shape UFO with
elongated bottom, with a light at each tip and an orange light
in the middle." It gradually moved off to the northwest but
within five minutes it was coming back. We all watched as it
traveled over our home traveling southeast, when it got over
Boyne City all of a sudden all of the outside lights started to
spin around. Shortly the light on the right side veered off
over Lake Charlevoix, which was to the west, while rest of the
craft continued on its course, but soon the lone light came
back and was heading the same direction as the large craft. It
traveled until it was out of sight. I then started calling law
enforcement agencies, FAA, and local airports but was unable to
find out anything.

MANCELONA -- Also on November 15, 2001, about ten minutes later
at 8:10 PM, my husband and I saw a UFO. It was a bell shape
cylinder top with saucer like bottom. It had three red lights
on it in the shape of a triangle. It glowed reddish with a
little whitish light. It had some time of a grill around its
middle. It moved very slowly to the left as it was faced
towards us. There were two other normal aircraft following it.
We saw it for about eight minutes before it went out of our
sight behind the trees. We took 3 pictures but they didn't turn
out very well. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

WISCONSIN SHOOTING STAR FALLS INTO FOREST

ONEIDA COUNTY -- Mr. Iman reported to UFOWisconsin that on
November 21, 2001, traveling north on Highway 51 near Minocqua,
he noticed how bright the stars were that night. Mr. Inman is
from the Chicago area where the city lights impair viewing.
Suddenly at 8:30 PM in front of us, what looked like a bright
star fell into the forest at a VERY fast rate. My girlfriend
also saw it and we couldn't figure out what it was. Too fast
for anything else and it looked to be ten miles north of us.
Never seen anything like it before. Thanks to Jenny Hoppe
Jenny@ufowisconsin.com,
UFOWisconsin:http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_1
121_oneida.html


ILLINOIS TEAR DROP SHAPED OBJECT

CHICAGO -- On November 15, 2001, a female witness reports. "I
just turned onto our street, I saw an object float over a
building across from us. I was a little taken aback; I told her
to look, and then decided it must be a plastic bag, blown up by
the wind. The only thing was that it was clearly moving at a
constant rate; it had a specific direction (east north east)
and had an orange glow that was not from ambient light. I can
only describe its shape as akin to a baby pacifier. It moved
quickly, but with a simultaneous rocking motion, that seemed
very measured and constant. It moved so quickly, about the
distance of three quarters of a mile, at about a minute's
passing. I might add that even though I'm in Chicago, it was a
particularly still day today. Very strange, for some reason,
seems noteworthy

BATH -- On November 6, 2001, the witness observed a disk shaped
object at 9:15 PM, and took five minutes of video of an orange
round bright light (zoomed), it had six smaller lights
illuminating around it. From a distance without the camera you
could see the outline of the saucer. Zoomed in on the saucer
you could see the small lights and 1 bright orange color light
that would get brighter and bigger and then fade away into
nothing but then would come back again. The saucer was coming
toward my direction and once I was filming it remained in the
same spot. After filming I got in my car and was traveling
east. As I was moving it was moving east also. I stopped at a
friend's house and she also saw the red/orange color light and
the outline of the saucer. It remained in the same spot. I got
back in my car approximately 10 minutes later headed back west
to my home. The light was still there but in a different
location and further away. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

COLORADO FLYING TRIANGLE

FRASER -- There were four of us laying out in the back yard to
watch the Leonid Meteor shower on November 16, 2001. It was the
day before the peak, but there were a few around 10:10 PM as we
watched. Person #1 is male, 16, and in the 10th grade in high
school. Person #2 is female, 16, and in 11th grade in high
school. Person #3 is male, 16 and in 11th grade in high school.
Person #4 is female, 14, and home schooled. Person #1 and #4
are brother and sister.

The sky was crystal clear. Person #1 fell asleep. At 10:10 PM
persons 2, 3, and 4 all saw five red jagged triangular shaped
crafts, flying in a perfect V shape across the sky. They stayed
in perfect formation, and flew fast from east to west. They
didn't make a sound, and seemed to be flying at about 150 feet
above us. We were all frozen, staring at them with disbelief
until after they passed. Then, petrified, we all ran inside as
fast as we could and told person # 1 and 4's mother about what
we saw. We then looked up "UFO sightings in Colorado." Thanks
to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

CALIFORNIA DISKS

SACRAMENTO -- The witness says he is reporting this event for
my wife - who on November 4, 2001, sometime between 12:00 and
1:30 in the afternoon, claims she saw a UFO at the intersection
of Florin Road and Franklin Boulevard. Before making a left
hand turn on Franklin Blvd, at a red light, she noted that many
witnesses were on the sidewalk pointing their fingers in the
sky yelling, "UFO, UFO!" My wife then looked up into the sky,
while heading west on Florin Road and looked up towards the
western sky and claims to have witnessed two silver shaped
dishes. The dishes hovered for about 2 or 3 minutes before
disappearing before her eyes. After the saucers disappeared,
her light turned green, and she proceeded to make her left hand
turn. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

VENTURA/SANTA BARBARA COUNTIES -- Don Robertson reports he just
received an email from David Anderson saying he and the family
had seen the Camarillo/Holiday UFO last night, and so did I. It
appeared in a clear patch of sky surrounded by clouds, at my
location near Saticoy, CA. at 4:55 PM. It was visible for ten
minutes, and then disappeared. I saw two downward jumps with
the naked eye, and then it disappeared rather slowly...blurring
out. There did seem to be a blurry light before it went,
altogether. I've observed this effect before.

On November 19, 2001, I saw the object for the first time this
year. It appeared, and disappeared, just before 5:00 PM. David
Anderson said he'd seen it on October 31, 2001. I think this is
the sixth year in a row that this object has been observed. For
those of you unfamiliar with the object's history, David
discovered the UFO on Thanksgiving, six years ago. Still
photographs and video tape have been shot of it over the years,
and many of us from the Ventura/Santa Barbara Counties MUFON,
have been watching for it ever since. Thanks to Don Robertson
GBR262

CALIFORNIA BRIGHT LIGHTS

David, Same thing happened to me last night. I went out and
looked to the NW, didn't see it and then turned to check the
Moon, and found the object gleaming almost overhead. It was the
same on Thanksgiving. Here are the appearances so far this
year, as far as I know: October 31, 2001, in Camarillo.
November 19, in Ventura...appeared and disappeared. November
22, over Ventura/Saticoy...10 minute sighting November 23, NW,
high Somis, 5 minute sighting at Saticoy Country Club November
25, over Camarillo and Ventura...4:54 to 4:58 PM very bright. I
shot some pictures through a 250 mm lens, but am unsure what
the results will be. I'm going to try to video tape it, too.
Can you all go out and check to your southwest very high up,
about 4:50 PM. Please check when the sky is clear. We still
need people in Bakersfield to check, also, to their southwest.
Understand that this is the only time a star is out at this
time of the evening, but it is very bright...almost as bright
as Venus. If you see a star at this time, it is the object. I
trust most of you know the difference between a star and a
plane. The object will not move, neither will a star! Watch for
at least ten minutes, and you will see the object disappear.
Stars do not disappear. If possible view the object through
binoculars and you'll really see it!! Keep checking, and write
down what time the object appears and disappears. Thanks to Don
GBR262e.russo@cisu.org (Edoardo Russo)
cisuflash-owner@yahoogroups.

Editor's Note: In November, Mars is low in the SSW at dusk and
sets in the WSW at about 10 PM. Its possible veiwing conditions
may be playing tricks, UFOs generally move after hovering for a
while.

CANADA FIREBALL

HALIFAX, NS -- As I gazed at the night sky on November 15,
2001, I saw something, and I didn't know what it was, at first.
It was glowing red and traveling very fast at 11:00 PM, and I
realized this was no comet or shooting star. It stopped very
suddenly and let down two more fireballs. I was thinking,
that's weird. It stopped for only four more minutes, but that
was long enough for me to get what was happening. It was
emitting long beams of light in a pattern 1, 2. Then stop 3, 4.
Then stop. I hurried inside to get my binoculars but by the
time I came out it had started moving again. The other two
Fireballs' went in opposite directions. One flew east and one
south. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

MEXICO UFO FLEET OVER MEXICO STATE

SAN LUIS TLATILCO -- Sixteen metallic-white objects were
sighted at 9:32 AM on November 21, 2001 as they flew over in
the municipality of Naucalpan in the state of Mexico . Fourteen
of these objects remained close together while the remaining
two stayed apart. The sighting lasted 15 minutes enabling Mrs.
Guillermina Vargas and her son to see the objects through
binoculars, record them on video, and even count them one by
one from their own home. Antena V=F3rtice has in its possession a
three minute video of these objects. In an interview, Mrs.
Vargas stated: "the objects moved slowly toward the center of
Mexico City. What saddens me the most is having not been aware
of the moment in which they disappeared." Thanks to Joe Trainor
Masinaigan@aol.com and Scott Corrales

ITALY UFO NEWSFLASH #332

AREZZO -- The Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU) reports
that the analyses of the "Angel Hair" is continuing concerning
the falling of whitish filaments on October 11, 2001, in the
province of Arezzo. The phenomenon involved additional
residents from the area, and over a time period of at least an
hour, from 2 to 3:00 PM, and included ten witnesses. The
filaments were also very long (up to 5-6 meters), and fell
copiously and continuously, eventually becoming entangled in
trees, on gates, and on the ground. Microscopic examination of
the filaments, a colorimetric exam of their structure, and a
fusion test revealed a structure that was varied, yet
prevalently polysaccharide and irregular, leading to
speculation that the filaments were of a natural and not
artificial origin.

  "UFO Baby", a New Comic Strip on newsstands beginning 26
  October is the first installment of a new monthly comic strip
  entitled "UFO Baby" (published by Play Press of Rome, 192
  pages, 7000 lire). It concerns a feature originally published
  between 1998 and 1999 in Japan (where last year, a televised
  version of it was also aired). Two teenagers observe a UFO and
  subsequently discover a newborn extraterrestrial, together
  with its babysitter and a stroller shaped like an
  Adamski-esque flying disc, which landed on Earth due to a
  space-temporal distortion. Thanks to Centro Italiano Studi
  Ufologici and Edoardo Russo
  cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

CORRECTION OLIVER NORTH

Several people wrote that during the Congressional Iran Contra
Hearings, Lt. Col. Oliver North warned that the terrorist Osama
Bin Laden had threatened him and his family and in his opinion,
"He is the most evil person alive that I know of." Hal Putoff
writes, that Oliver North fingered the terrorist Abu Nidal,
rather than Osama Bin Laden. Others reviewed the transcripts
and claimed there was no specific terrorist name mentioned.
Thanks to Hal Putoff

INTELLIGENCE FEEDBACK

Robert Collins received the following message from Major
Darren, "Your web site is most impressive, especially the items
about MJ-12. Having been involved with that subject area for
many years, I can say most of what you state is fact. Although
I don't know about the Aviary ( the so called list of
intelligence operatives given names or birds). I do know MJ-12
was an active group of quasi-government personnel involved in
the safeguarding of UFO and ET secrets. Were you involved in
this program? I am retired Air Force Major (0-4) and worked
with the Office of Special Investigation and AF intelligence
for most of my 24 year career. Regarding James Jesus Angleton,
he was never a member of MJ-12. He might have been privy to
some information from MJ-12 but never a member. Angleton, in
1970, wrote a counterintelligence assessment of the UFO
phenomena. In this document, Angleton mentioned the Roswell
incident, also an incident in the New Mexican Desert in 1964
and an exchange program between EBEs and us in 1965 and 1969.
This document was entitled, " Assessment Number 7." I know Rick
Doty read this along with some other former government
employees. The document was classified Top Secret, codeword,
with limited distribution. I saw the document while assigned to
Air Force Intel in the late 70s. Too bad we couldn't get our
hands on this document. I'm sure it is tucked away in some
obscure vault with CIA headquarters. Thanks to Darren and
Robert Collins See
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins633/reports/mj12_directive_m
emo.htm

  NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come
help our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving
at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender
2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer

The local Fire Station sign reads, "May the angels protect You!


If you want to be removed form the list, you can unsubscribe
your email address from the same place you subcribed.
http://www.filersfiles.com/index.shtml#subscribe






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                        Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

From: DRudiak@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:34:46 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

<snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

I think everybody on the List read correctly that James Oberg
was attempting to debunk the quote by insinuating that it was
never made.

Cernan made his remarks at a press conference of Apollo 17
astronauts on January 5, 1973 in Houston, where Mr. Oberg lives,
I believe, since he works (worked?) for NASA.

I suspect all Mr. Oberg would have had to do to verify the quote
would have been to walk over to the NASA public relations office
and ask about it, or maybe ask a NASA archivist. Not only would
he have probably come up with some press clippings, but maybe
the original press conference transcript and videotape as well.

He could have also called up Eugene Cernan and simply asked him
about it. Or, as it turns out, he could have politely asked
about it on UFO Updates, where he got instantaneous results.
Instead he found it it so much easier to sneer at the "rich and
famous UFO believer quotes."

Although I completely agree that these quotes often turn out to
be spurious and do require documentation, the impression I think
we all get is that Mr. Oberg didn't try all that hard to
document this one.

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

He only had all the resources of NASA at his disposal to track
the quote down, if it came to that. But he didn't even have to
do that. See immediately below.

 ><snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation,

Cernan's quote is in Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret." Good
accurately provides the citation as the Jan 6, 1973 Los Angeles
Times (see page 579). I bring this up here because notice below
how Oberg slams the quote Good uses from Werner von Braun in the
same book in the same chapter.

In other words, kiddies, all Oberg had to do to get the original
citation for the Cernan quote was go to the same page of
citations in Good's book that he used to check the von Braun
quote.

What does this say about the truthfulness of his statement that
he was unable to find the original citation?

The irony here, is in going after Good to deflect attention from
his screw-up on Cernan, Oberg is unwittingly providing the rope
to hang himself.

 >I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >trying to establish the consensus here.

No, I don't see consensus building here, just a lot of
hand-waving to try to remove his foot from his mouth.

 >Second, I note that NOBODY has touched the X-15 Bob White
 >'testimony' fraud that my investigation on original cited
 >sources uncovered, and details of which I posted recently?

Why should anybody "touch it", since it wasn't the topic of
discussion? Wasn't the topic Eugene Cernan's "questionable"
quote?

Oberg is simply trying to change the subject after getting the
screws rightfully put to him for his slimy debunking tactics.

 >Do we
 >presume from this that 'silence implies consent' and that
 >everybody here is agreeable to posting the faked version of his
 >actual description of the small, tumbling, paper-shaped
 >doohingee he spotted outside his window? Is that the consensus,
 >and if not, what is anybody going to DO about it (right, other
 >people's mistakes are not our responsibility to correct -- you
 >can sense this attitude from some smarmy posts about
 >'how-dare-he?' question useful propaganda bites, whether
 >accurate or not.

Ironic how Oberg uses classic propaganda tactics to dodge
responsibility for his mistakes if not prevarications, then
accuses others of employing "propaganda bites."

 >Third, here's another piece of original research on another
 >'famous' pro-UFO quote from Wernher von Braun. Your reaction (or
 >lack of reaction) will be interesting.

More changing of the subject instead of simply apologizing.  He
got Cernan completely wrong, so he tries to rehabilitate himself
with his past "triumphs."

 >Famous 'Wernher von Braun' UFO quotation debunked.
 >James Oberg

 >There is a widespread quotation attributed to Wernher von Braun
 >in 1959, apparently first printed by Timothy Good, as follows:

Yes, the very same Timothy Good who also provided the correct
citation for the Cernan quote, which Oberg said he couldn't
obtain.

 >"We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than
 >we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown
to >us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in
 >entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or
 >nine months time it may be possible to speak with some
precision >on the matter."

 >This comment comes from "News Europa" Jan. 1959

Yes, that's the citation Good provided in his chapter on NASA
(p. 579).  Of course, further down on the same page of citations
is the Los Angeles Times one for Cernan. And all these years,
poor Jim Oberg would have us believe he was unable to obtain
this citation from the propagandistic "UFO believers!"

I think I see some fingers wagging out there.

 >and refers to
 >mysterious events during the re-entry phase of the Juno 2 rocket
 >during a test flight.

 >One Internet example is:

 >http://www.connect.net/mattvest/sciufo.htm

 >The reference is to the Pioneer-IV moon probe, launched by the
 >Army-built Jupiter IRBM with upper stages, in December 1958.
 >
 >My colleague Tasillo Roemisch of Space Service Intl. in
 >Mittweida, Germany, went to the Deutsche Buecherei in Leipzig
 >and found out the following:

 >The magazine 'Neues Europa'(14 issues per year, all issues had
 >only 8 pages.) ceased publishing at the end of the sixties. Its
 >full title reads correctly:

 >Neues Europa. Das f=FChrende Weltblatt fuer alle Fragen der
 >kommenden Entwicklung. Verlag August Kraemer GmbH, Stuttgart
 >(New Europe. The leading World Magazine for all questions of the
 >coming development).

 >Roemisch checked all issues of the years 1959 and 1960 and found
 >out that they had been supporting a Karl Michalek who lived in
 >Santiago de Chile at that time and who claimed to be the
 >"President of the Coming World Republic Earth". He was sure that
 >the Venusian ET's were going to land in Berlin soon. Furthermore
 >the writers often wrote about the well known UFO personality
 >George Adamski and his associates.

 >Wernher von Braun was only mentioned one time, and that was in
 >issue no. 3 (Febr. 01, 1959) when they wrote that "Prof. Oberth,
 >the colleague of the German-American Wernher von Braun...
 >believes in the existence of extraterrestials living in the star
 >constallation Tau-Zeta, the Uranides."

 >The article footnoted by Good and so widely and trustingly
 >disseminated (issue no. 1, January 01, 1959, page 2) doesn't
 >mention von Braun at all. It read as follows. The headline was
 >"Sensationelle Zeichen aus dem Weltraum" (sensational signs from
 >outer space), and this is the sub-text:

 >"Interplanetarische Kr=E4fte, welche die irdischen Mond- Raketen
 >aus ihrer Bahn lenken" (interplanetary forces which direct
 >terrestrial moon rockets out of track), followed by "Russische
 >und amerikanische Fern- Raketen, die ihre Ziele nicht erreichen
 >- Demonstration der Venus- Kr=E4fte?"

 >(Russian and American rockets which don't reach their goals -
 >demonstration of the Venusian forces?)

 >The article itself: Saturday Dec 06, 1958. Fourth attempt of the
 >USA moonrocket failed. Juno 2 was hindered in an altitude of
 >100,000 km to fly higher and came back.

 >"Amerikanische Sachverst=E4ndige betonen, dass es im Weltall
 >Kr=E4fte gibt, welche die irdischen Raketen aus ihren
 >vorberechneten Bahnen ablenken, ihre Fluggeschwindigkeit
 >reduzieren und sie wieder in die Lufth=FClle der Erde
 >zur=FCckdirigieren."

 >(American specialists emphasize that there are forces in outer
 >space to mislead terrestial rockets out of their calculated
 >tracks to reduce their speed and to send them back to the
 >atmosphere of the Earth)

 >The author was Albert Laurent and he claimed the Russian and
 >Indian researchers have said about the same.

 >As one would expect from an Adamski-ite rag, the real science
 >and technology was hopelessly garbled. The American moon probes
 >had followed gravitational trajectories with no outside
 >interference suspected, even then; instead, problems with the
 >booster rockets put them on the wrong initial courses.

 >This investigation of the actual rather than the distorted
 >'quotation' inaccurately attributed to Wernher von Braun is not
 >expected to have any impact on the false versions now extant on
 >the WWW.

In the case of the Cernan quote, we have all seen just how hard
he tries to track down the original source material before
making insinuations about the truthfulness of it. But I guess
we'll just have to trust Jim Oberg on this one, that the quote
from von Braun really isn't there and Good bungled this one.

But Good _didn't_ bungle the Cernan citation, the one
trustworthy Jim Oberg claimed he couldn't obtain from the UFO
believers. Looks to me like the game of Good vs. Oberg is tied
at one all.


David Rudiak







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                               Refuting Fermi

From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids@anv.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:39:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:13:39 -0500
Subject: Refuting Fermi


The enclosed article by John Alexander may be of interest to
your readership. It was recently posted to the What's New
section of the NIDS web site (http://www.nidsci.org)


Sincerely
Colm Kelleher
NIDS

-----

Refuting Fermi: No Evidence for Extraterrestrial Life?
By: John B. Alexander

In a recent article Seth Shostak drew attention what has become
known as the Fermi Paradox. Typically discussants raise the
famous off-hand luncheon comment by Enrico Fermi, "Where is
everybody?" when dismissing the existence of intelligent
extraterrestrial life. The invocation of such a distinguished
figure is polemic and used to make the position academically
unassailable.

In the ranks of scientific loyalists there is a constant refrain
pertaining to the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial
life. Best phrased by Carl Sagan, known for his "billions and
billions" quotation in developing the hypothesis that we share
the universe with other forms of intelligence, he added "but
there is not one shred of evidence to support it." Really?
Actually, the book he co-edited with Thornton Page, UFOS: A
Scientific Debate, refutes his own statement. The deductive
error is conflation of lack of evidence with proof beyond a
reasonable doubt.

Edward Condon fostered this misconstruction in his fatally
flawed and internally inconsistent report on UFOs. Despite the
widely published conclusions, his report too contained
substantial evidence supporting the physical existence of these
objects. The error is the a priori assumption that UFOs cannot
exist therefore no evidence to the contrary will be considered,
never mind accepted. Few scientists would allow such faulty
logic to prevail in their own field of expertise. Yet, in the
emotionally laden field of UFOs, scientists let Condon stand
uncorrected and disregarding pertinent facts has become the
accepted norm.

The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of
multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible
witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos,
radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces
including depressions and anomalous residual radiation,
electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological
effects. Personal observations have been made both day and
night, often under excellent visibility with some at close
range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses
to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has
confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this
considered evidence?

There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which
include interference with flight controls. On numerous
occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have
noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several
astronomers and other competent scientists reported their
personal observations. Many military officials from several
countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The
most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and
recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have
stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a
miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.

Of course they do not constitute irrefutable proof. However, to
state there is no evidence suggestive of intelligent
extraterrestrial life simply belies the facts. Decades in
duration and global in nature, there are too many hard sensor
data-points and millions of eyewitnesses to ignore. We certainly
can debate the significance of specific data and question
whether or not it establishes a causal relationship between the
observations and extraterrestrial life. However, it is only
through ignorance or pomposity that one can say no evidence
exists.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:43:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:46:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Clark



 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Jim,

 >Yet when I suggested that without documentation _I_ wouldn't
 >believe something just because it was on the Internet, I wind up
 >whipped with Klassical ad hominems. Isn't consistent logic such
 >a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

I'm glad that we agree that there are such things as Klassical
ad hominems.

Beyond that, all of us, or at any rate most of us, don't want to
believe in things that aren't so. That conceded, maybe we can
all stop pointing fingers and saying grumpy things to each
other. As Scripture observes, all have sinned and fallen short
of the glory of the Lord.


Cheers,

Jerry Clark









UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:53:24 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:48:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:06:08 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:56:13 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Aldrich

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

 ><snip>

 >>>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>>civilization."

 ><snip>

 >>Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >>for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >>nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >>these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >>be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >>evidential value to them, without documentation.

 >I asked Barry Greenwood to check his clipping collection for the
 >article containing Cernan's quote. His answer:

 >The article is authentic, Jan. 6, 1973: "Cernan Says Other
 >Earths Exist"

 >"I'm one of those guys who has never seen a UFO
 >(Unidentified Flying Object). But I've been asked, and
 >I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else,
 >some other civilization." Gene Cernan, 1-6-1973

 >It goes on about his positive views on life in space and the
 >abundance of other civilizations.

 >So the quote is slightly different than given many places on the
 >web, but it is authentic.

Don't be fooled by Oberg's claim that he couldn't find the
citation, because Timothy Good used the exact same quote in
"Above Top Secret" and provided the correct citation. Oberg
should definitely have know of this, because in another post to
Updates, to deflect attention from his screw-up on Cernan, he
attacked another quote from Good's book. This involved an
alleged quote from Werner von Braun from a highly obscure German
periodical. Oberg said he had somebody in Germany check out the
von Braun citation. Both citations (of the quote from von Braun
and the quote from Cernan) are on the same page in "Above Top
Secret."

So how come he could find the von Braun citation in Good's book
and even check it out, but not the Cernan citation?

But that's not the main subject of this post. I live near UC
Berkeley, which has an excellent microfilm collection, including
the L.A. Times. It was no problem finding the article. Cernan's
remarks were made during a press conference of Apollo 17
astronauts in Houston (where Oberg lives) on Jan. 5, 1973.

Cernan's remarks about UFOs and his belief in the probability
of many ET civilizations made up the bulk of the L. A. Times
article. Towards the end of the article, it had Harrison
Schmitt's comments on some strange, orange moon soil they
brought back which was volcanic and thought to be very recent in
origin. Then the article ended with a paragraph about the
astronauts' future plans. Cernan and Ronald Evans said they
intended to remain with the space program, but Schmitt wasn't
sure.

I assumed this press conference would be reported in other
newspapers as well. So in the time I had, I also checked the New
York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle. Both carried an
Associated Press article. Almost the entire article was about
the young volcanic soil. Like the L.A. Times article, the ending
paragraph was about the astronauts' intentions.

But there wasn't a single word about what Cernan had said
regarding UFOs and alien civilizations, the major focus of the
L. A. Times article. If somebody read only the AP article, they
would never know Cernan had made these remarks. (Insert your
conspiracy theory here about the Associated Press censuring UFO
material.)

I may go back and check some of the other major newspapers, such
as the Chicago Tribune and Washington Post, to see if maybe they
carried some other version of the press conference. The UCB
library doesn't have the Houston Post, which might have a local
version. However, I bet even James Oberg might be able to find
that.


David Rudiak






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:01:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:51:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
 >attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'.

I would have said for consistently displaying a lack of balance
and canted reporting, but a shoe so well worn must certainly
fit...

 >When the
 >documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
 >accept the newspaper account as authentic.

Funny -- I would have had you for more of a Snydley Whiplash,
"Curses, foiled again!" kind of response.

 >The connection
 >between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
 >beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
 >Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

Put that together with Stanton Friedman's "from the horses
mouth" and you can declare a "BINGO" and be consumed with the
happiness you alluded to earlier?

 >As to the X-15 ("White's UFO") fraud, or the von Braun false
 >quote, now suddenly we hear that people never believed stuff on
 >the Internet anyway, so no big deal. Hmm, isn't this
 >inconsistent?

Your microcosmic contentions, awash with all the veracity you'd
care to name, still don't scale up to the big enchilada,
though... they don't address the big picture that you and your
opposition know is there. You don't remotely begin to address
the 20% bonafied unknowns that Hynek and Ruppelt were very plain
about, for instance.

 >Yet when I suggested that without documentation _I_ wouldn't
 >believe something just because it was on the Internet, I wind up
 >whipped with Klassical ad hominems.

...And I think he deserves them as much as you do, for the same
reasons and with the same amount of outraged passion.

 >Isn't consistent logic such
 >a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

I'm somewhat less than amused considering how readily you can
make your pronouncements from the mainstream stage. You seem to
have some capability as a space historian, but even that is
suspect given your penchant to pick and choose from your
convenient microcosm tiny straw men that you use to discredit
the ufological macrocosm.

 >I'll continue to dig into the accuracy of stuff widely published
 >on the Internet, out of this curious obsession with getting real
 >facts right and false facts exposed and documented. I guess that
 >obsession is sort of crazy to many people! <again, grin>

I've no doubt but that you'll continue to do that which you have
done, but that's the way of it isn't it? The best have had the
conviction nearly burned out of them, while the worst do their
work with passionate intensity?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                  Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:54:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Tonnies


 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:36:58 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Angel Hair' In California
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Angel hair has a way of disappearing. But even if it becomes
 >invisible in the jar there may be a gaseous residue that could
 >be detected by a gas analyzer. Whatever you have it in, don't
 >open it. It shuld only be opened in a controlled surrounding or
 >by sticking in a needle and sucking out some of the gas inside.

And whatever you do - don't eat it! Who knows where it's been!
And by all means keep it away from small children.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
       http://mactonnies.com







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                  Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:52:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:22:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:08:41 -0600

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary

 >>>The identity of the astronaut is Gordon Cooper.

 >I believe Grant must be correct on this. Cooper's story about
 >the film he inspected at Edwards AFB in May 1957 is in his book
 >'Leap of Faith' in some detail. He reports that the object
 >landed in front of the witnesses.

 >The account of every other person involved with that incident --
 >the two primary witnesses, the officer who did the blue book
 >interviews (Lt. Hubert Davis), the actual report filed with Blue
 >Book (which included the film), the account of the case
 >described by James McDonald before Congress in 1968 -- describe
 >only a light drifting past the observers, with no landing. One
 >witness, plus Davis, stated unequivocably that Cooper had no
 >connection with the sighting at all, was not in the chain of
 >command, and in fact was never noticed by them. I have also
 >talked with the engineer who was Cooper's boss during this
 >interval.

 >As regards this discrepancy between Cooper's version and
 >everybody else's, I offer no explanation.

 >My 1983-1984 investigation of this story is at:

 >http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

 >and I'd be happy to receive comments on-line or off-line.

 >My report on Cooper's book's story about a Gemini space camera and secret
 >photos of Area-51 is at:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

 >and may provide some insight into the 1957 incident versions
 >discrepancies.

I have read the article which mentions Cooper's 1951 UFO. It
does not state the duration and dates of Cooper's tour in
Europe. However, there is this comment:

Other veterans of Cooper's unit concurred. "I was a pilot and
weather officer at Neubiberg 1948 thru 1951, but I can't recall
any reports of these sightings," wrote one.

I don't know about anything in 1951, but in 1948 there was
indeed a UFO sighting at Newbiberg.

See:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/jtt.htm

First, USAFE Intelligence stated that they received recurring
reports of flying saucers. Newspapers throughout Europe had
reported on the Neubiberg Air Base incident referred to in the
cable:

  On October 29, 1948, newspapers throughout Europe reported this
  sighting near Munich:


"Five U. S. Air Force pilots observed a mysterious, silvery
object similar in appearance to a so-called flying saucer
hanging high over Neubiberg Air Base in Bavaria.  The object
disappeared at a terrific speed after having remained over the
air base more than 30 minutes. A similar object had been seen
days before by another group of American pilots."


The above quote is from Hammet's "Flying Saucers Come to Europe"
which apparently is no longer on the web. However, I believe I
have a copy here and will attempt to post it. A former "Top
Secret" report from USAF, Europe does refer to UFO reports in
Germany and at Neubiberg in 1948. This doesn't match Cooper's
account. It has been my experience that people have difficulty
remembering dates unless there is a significant event around
that time to which one may refer.

Further comments:

Unit histories are unreliable for determination if UFOs were
reported by certain military organizations. I have consulted
hundreds of such histories, only a small percentage of these
histories mention UFO cases, even when the UFO sightings by a
particular unit made national headline. Ditto US Navy ships
logs.

I have copies of the original 1952 TWX's from the aircraft
carrier USS Philippine Sea and information from the ship's
operations officer that there were additional sightings
afterwards. These additional sightings were reportedly made when
the ship was operating with the USS Missouri. However, on
consulting the deck logs of the both the Philippine Sea and the
Missouri no mention was found of any UFO sightings. The earlier
Philippine Sea report while in Project Blue Book also is not
mentioned in the ship's log. Nor were there any mention in the
logs of other ships in both the task forces. (Out of 72 dates
and ships, I had reference to UFO reports, only two were
mentioned in ships' logs. The USS Chippola in 1947, and the
Greenwood off of Key West in 1952.) There were no long entries
for Operation Mainbrace although there were UFO reports made
during the exercise.

Lack of comments about UFO incidents in unit histories or ship's
logs does not establish anything about the existence of such
reports.

Jan Aldrich








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                  Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:42:04 +1100
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:24:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:03:55 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Gordon Cooper Talks UFOs With Defense Secretary

 >In an August 30, 2001 Dr. Steven Greer made the following statement:

 >"Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
 >astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
 >particular astronaut had during his career been in possession of
 >a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of evidence
 >related to UFOs.

 >It is something that if disclosed would clear and definitive.

 >This astronaut described how he had approached and worked
 >directly with President Clinton's Secretary of Defense William
 >Cohen to look into and retrieve from classified projects this
 >specific piece of evidence -  of that which he had all the
 >specific details... the words used by this astronaut to me were
 >'there was an inordinate large amount of money and personal time
 >by the Secretary of Defense William Cohen was spent to locate
 >this evidence, and he was never given access to it.'"

 >The identity of the astronaut is Gordon Cooper. That fact is
 >confirmed in a September 13, 2001 Disclosure event in Salem
 >Oregon.

 >http://disclosureproject.org/audiogallery.htm

 >The event involved a UFO landing film, which Greer had mentioned
 >in an earlier lecture.

 >Greer met with Cooper at the International Platform Association
 >speakers convention in Washington in August 2001, where they
 >were both presenting.

Evening all,

Wow, what a great convention that must have been. One I would
have really liked to have attended. Thx to Grant for passing
this link along.

However, I do have one issue I would like to take up in regards
to something Dr Steven Greer talked about. This mistaken idea
that the energy source the Grey's ect are using will be a good
replacement for our energy consumption needs.

Oil will run out soon and we do need to either find another
source or learn to make sacrifices by living without some of
these so-called luxuries we have become so reliant upon. It
would seem more logical to do without the 10 percent of people
using these resources than to stumble around hoping to find
another source or risking self extinction by rushing in and
using another resource we know little or next to nothing about.

Resource like what ET's are using as a fuel source is one of
these that I know we know nothing about, especially what effects
these have upon our world and upon us. (Well for most anyway.)

My research into magnets and what powers magnets lead me to
believe a craft using magnetic fields was possible and was 'the
only way to go' for travelling around in outer space in a short
enough time to make travelling worth while. But what I also
found out was that these elements that are needed to make all
this kind of space travel possible, come with a price. When
mined and processed for just such use, it takes away the
magnetic field/magnetic properties from the planet it is mined
out of. So if we started mining and processing these elements
here on Earth it wouldn't be too many years down the track
before the effects of all this mining started to make its
presents felt. I dare say everyone here would be able to
understand what would happen to our planet if we started the
reckless mining of the very elements that keeps this remarkable
little planet of ours orbiting the sun. Not to mention these
magnetic fields keep the Moon were it is.

I took up the UFO challenge to find out if my research into
magnetics was correct and to work out if the Greys or any other
alien race was getting their resources to build and power their
vessels from our planet or Moon. If this is the case I am very
determined to stop them and tell the world as to what is going
on. This goes for any people of Earth that wish to start messing
around with these same elements.

I mean why does everyone think these ET's live in space for? If
you think about it, couldn't they just find another planet and
settle down on it? Of course they could, but they don't, because
they like what they have and what they are doing, not to mention
they get to live incredibly long lives and they aren't about to
give up this life style any more than many of us would give ours
up. But as with all such life styles there comes a price for
someone or something.

As I listened to Dr Greer talking it suddenly occurred to me
that perhaps this very knowledge of such elements/alchemy was in
fact what was being kept from us, not so much the ET's
themselves.

I can see why this would happen now, as we all know even if the
whole world knew that the use of these elements/resources would
see an end to Mother Earth and all life on it, there would still
be those idiots out there that would use it and gladly put all
of our lives at risk for a profit. So on one hand, whom ever it
is, that is keeping this info from us is really doing us a
bigger favour than we might think. On the other hand they also
might be just keeping it all for themselves.

It is a fact of life that the dollar drives science and
scientists into areas they would never under normal circumstance
go or even dream of going. This greed and short mindless that
now drives most of our science may just be our greatest undoing
if we aren't careful.

We as a race have to make a decision about what is an acceptable
use of limited resources by the few that get to use them; there
is no such thing as free energy. We have one planet left in this
solar system that will support terrestrial life such as ours. So
any mistakes we make now we will be paying for very dearly in
the future. Reincarnation will be pointless if there is no
planet for one to be reincarnated on.

We can have a great life with a life style to rival a king,
without putting the planet or any other life at risk. It will
take time, it will take commitment for us all, it will take
scarifies and compromises. It will take longer than our life
times to achieve. But it can be done, if we want it too.

I see this period in Human kinds history as being a turning
point, were we go from here will either see us head towards our
extinction or our continued existence. There is no short, quick,
easy answer, no quick fix to get us out of our pending energy
crisis.

So I can see why some are rushing to find solutions to these
problems, but hast makes waste. Better I think we start to learn
to make sacrifices and start using less.


Sincerely

Christopher
  (Tophar)









UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:35:21 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


 >FILER'S FILES #48 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >November 28, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,


JimO reports this item which might have gotten lost in the
recent s---storm (that's s--- for sNOW) and modestly brings it
to Filer's attention so he can respond with equal
graciousness...

And again, the likelihood is certainly there that it has already
been corrected and that i in my inadequate scholarship just
haven't been able to find it.

-----

Source: Rense.com

http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
Filer's Files #16
4-24-99

Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
(Time magazine),

The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
Robert White.

The final paragraph reads: 'New Mystery: After the sky-stabbing
record flight last week, four X-15 pilots -- White, Walker,
North American's Scott Crossfield, and Navy Commander Forrest
Petersen -- journeyed to Washington, where President Kennedy
gave them the Robert J. Collier Trophy, presented annually since
1911 for outstanding achievements in flight.

But for White and his fellow X-15 pilots, the greatest reward
for their work is the satisfaction of probing the mysteries
inside the sky. In last week's flight Bob White found a new
mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
'There absolutely is.'

As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
any idea what it could be.'

Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
common sight on orbital missions.

In ANY case, the use of the TIME article with omission of the
explanatory comments such as the small size of the sighted
object and its appearance -- tumbling, looking like a piece of
paper -- is a simple case of fraud. Somebody expected to have no
problem promulgating this deliberately distorted story among the
UFO buffs at whom it was aimed. And as far as I can tell, it's
worked.



George Filer report (never retracted), April 1999







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:04:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:30:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:53:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >It was no problem finding the article. Cernan's
 >remarks were made during a press conference of Apollo 17
 >astronauts in Houston (where Oberg lives) on Jan. 5, 1973.

What I can add is to get a tape of that press conference from
NASA-JSC and see if it was a question asked during the
conference, although it might have been asked face-to-face
either before or after the formal event.

Jerry Clark's admonitions are very appropriate. And use of words
like 'attack' and 'don't be fooled' are not.










UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
 >attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'.

Can't imagine why. First you suggested the quote was bogus
because "nobody" (nobodies unspecified) would provide you with
an original citation. But you had the original L. A. Times
citation all along in Timothy Good's book ("Above Top Secret"),
you know, the one that had the chapter on NASA and quotes from
von Braun and Cernan. You ran down the Good's von Braun quote,
but not Cernan's. Why?

 >When the
 >documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
 >accept the newspaper account as authentic.

If you could check out Good's citation on von Braun, you could
have run down Good's citation on Cernan as well, and much more
easily (many libraries have a major paper like the L.A. Times on
microfilm, maybe even in Houston). Both citations were on the
same page. If that isn't "screwing up," then what is it?

 >The connection
 >between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
 >beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
 >Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

 >As to the X-15 ("White's UFO") fraud, or the von Braun false
 >quote, now suddenly we hear that people never believed stuff on
 >the Internet anyway, so no big deal. Hmm, isn't this
 >inconsistent?

Maybe you would care to address the inconsistency of your claim
that you couldn't find the Cernan citation, even though it was
right there with the von Braun citation in Good's book.

 >Yet when I suggested that without documentation _I_ wouldn't
 >believe something just because it was on the Internet, I wind
 >up whipped with Klassical ad hominems.

And you wouldn't know anything about using ad hominems, would
you?

 >Isn't consistent logic such
 >a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

Others of us may not share your "delight", since your ability to
find the von Braun quote citation in Good's book is logically
inconsistent with your seeming inability to find the Cernan
citation in the same book, in fact, even on the same page.

 >I'll continue to dig into the accuracy of stuff widely published
 >on the Internet, out of this curious obsession with getting real
 >facts right and false facts exposed and documented. I guess that
 >obsession is sort of crazy to many people! <again, grin>

You were so "obsessed" with documenting the Cernan quote and
getting your "facts right" that you completely ignored or
overlooked Good's citation. Somehow, however, you found the von
Braun quote in the same chapter on NASA and UFOs, and used
Good's citation to run it down. They you proudly announced how
you had debunked the von Braun quote.

As to the Cernan quote, you wrote on Updates Nov. 21:

  "Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've
  asked for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual
  article, nobody's been able to actually produce it."

The insinuation here was that the quote was false, because
"nobody's been able to actually produce" "the original citation
or a photocopy of the actual article."

I don't know about you, but I usually do my own legwork instead
of relying on the knowledge of Internet "nobodies." A good place
for you to have started was turning to the index of "Above Top
Secret.," you know, the book with those erroneous NASA/astronaut
quotes you like to debunk, such as von Braun and Bob White. In
about 3 seconds you would have had the page number of Cernan's
quote.

In 3 more seconds, you could have thumbed to the page with
Cernan's quote and gotten the number of the citation footnote.
Then turning to the reference section in the rear of the book,
in a few more seconds you would have had the actual citation: p.
579, "Chris Nicholas: 'Cernan Says Other Earths Exist,' Los
Angeles Times, 6 January 1973."

Boy, that was hard!

Perhaps you can explain to us why you couldn't bother yourself
in your great obsession to track down the facts. Maybe it was
because there is so much for you to debunk and so little time!
<grin>

Incidentally, given your past record of spin-doctoring (your
current response to your screw-up, yes SCREW-UP, on the Cernan
quote being a very good example), I don't consider YOU to be a
highly credible source.

I don't know if von Braun actually made the quote attributed to
him by Good. I guess we'll just have to take your word for now
that it isn't in Good's citation, Neues Europa, 1 January 1959.
But I do know for a fact that von Braun was in Germany at that
time attending the funeral of his mother, who died Dec. 28, 1958
in Munich. (This can be verified with a quick thumb through the
New York Times index, available at most major libraries, even in
Houston I'm sure.)

The point is von Braun was in the right place at the right time
to have been directly quoted by the German press. I wouldn't be
too quick to dismiss the possibility that the quote in question
is floating out there, perhaps in one of the Munich newspapers
instead of Neues Europa. Somebody, however, would have to spend
the time doing a diligent search of German newspapers and
magazines to see what the German press quoted von Braun as
saying about anything. (I'm sure it would have been big news to
have von Braun back in Germany. The papparazzi probably would
have been all over him).

For all we know, maybe the German equivalent of the L.A. Times
has him saying "Other Earths Exist" or "I thought they were
somebody else, some other civilization." Famous people
affiliated with NASA have been known to say such things, hard as
it may be for James Oberg to accept in his zealous quest for the
truth.

Even if the German quote turns out to be completely bogus, it
should come as no surprise to many on the Updates list that some
people associated with von Braun have claimed he spoke to them
about the reality of UFOs. Here are but two examples from a
quick Net search:

1. Michael Lindemann and CNI News, reporting on Clark McClelland
comments on NASA covering up UFOs and von Braun telling him of
the Roswell crash

http://hardtruth.topcities.com/nasa_knows_ufos.htm

2. UFO/Disney/von Braun connection with additional comments by
Bruce Maccabee and Stanton Friedman, including this by Stan: "I
should add that I have recently been told that the late Dr. Hans
Nieper, a rather remarkable German Physician, has told people
that Von Braun told him that indeed aliens and flying saucers
were real."

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a2000/mar/v.htm


David Rudiak







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                  Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:20:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:41:17 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Angel Hair' In California - Lehmberg


Humbly submitted as a measure of what we've lost, continue to
lose, and know to get back. This points up the value, utility,
and validity of the different drumming individual, each of us to
one degree or another, and provides a valid framework from which
to reach further in that rewarding attempt to increase ones
grasp...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Pyramids of Maslow

An Epic song
by Alfred Lehmberg

It's called "self actualization," and it comes to one with luck
-- if one's found out its existence, and ones courage measures
up. A cosmic drug, but safer (in fact healing, I should say).
Surely, vanquishing the shadows as it drives them far away. It's
built up, like a pyramid, just one level at a time, and when
it's been constructed there's a treasure one might find!

Why, one can look for miles, friend, and perceive the grandest
things; one could feel very deeply, but could still detach from
things; and one could SEE, at last, some "thing" - for what it
really was, and write it down for you and me, describing what it
does...

The FIRST tier of this pyramid's a wide based, harsh, affair.
Requirements must dictate what the 'real world' shares. Food -
and plenty of it, food for health, and day to day. Food that
feeds the body (and the mind I'm quick to say). Food that's
never ending, food that's always there, food that won't distract
you from that 'upward' path so near. Without it one must perish;
without it one looks down; without it one is looking for its
smell or taste and sound. Without food one will perish and shall
think of nothing else; One's, at the least, distracted as one
tightens at ones belt.

The NEXT tier of this pyramid's 'almost' as wide and harsh. It
presupposes shelter, a roof, some clothes - a hearth. Ones life
requires sanctuary, security - retreat. Refuge and good cover
are essential, basic needs. Without it one's distracted from a
self-affirming path. Without it one is doomed to beg - and
grovel for a laugh! Without it one is lost at sea without a hook
to use. Without it one will suffer if his home has been abused.

The THIRD tier is relaxing and it gives one time to think. It
hinges on security - or how closely lies the 'brink'. It's
SAFETY that concerns one - no 'gators in the swamp... as one
might work to drain it (?) - be undistracted by their "romp"?
It's protection from disaster, and defense against disease, it's
redress from all the worrying if one gets up off ones knees.
It's a loss of all ones anxiousness, that distraction from the
path... that ruins satisfaction, and runs a motor out of gas.
With safety one has time to think - to ponder, more, the stars .
. . to give some thought to flying things, like saucers and
guitars.

The FORTH tier's near as massive though maligned -
misunderstood. Worshipped and detested, call it lust or
something 'good'. It's tumultuous, a wildcard! It can make you
sick as hell. It's like dancing with the stars and hearing
ringing - pealing bells. Providing for ones basic drive it's
woven into love, or pounded into razor blades and used to prod
and shove. One shall _not_ rise above it... this tyranny of
genes - denied it sneaks upon you, and shall visit you with
'dreams'. A column for ones total drive, it shall not be
dismissed. This tier of your potential is the tier that would be
'kissed'.

. . . And then one wants "belonging" as a FIFTH tier finds its
place. One wants to feel useful and... a PART of something, Ace!
And, this is fine and dandy 'till it's used to take your hand,
and then lead you down some prim rose path - mere fodder to be
damned. One finds belonging to ones SELF a better path, you see
- a path so ever upward in a climb to make one free. Free from
despotism that will take away ones edge, free of harsh elitists
that would have us live THEIR dread. Free from all behaviorists,
their programs and their chains, free from all the guilt
imposed, the charges, and the blame. Belonging's fine until it's
used to cause one further pain. It's, then, a mechanism for a
collar on your brain.

Oh, then there's recognition, and rewards that that entails. A
SIXTH tier may be added, and one reaches, grasps... or fails.
Yes, here there's contribution. Here, ACHIEVEMENTS can be made
that makes repairs or shreds and tears - to clarify or fade.
One's competence unquestioned (?) and esteem needs justly met
(?), one looks around for what is left, to pick up, savor - GET!
Perhaps one takes the high road and decides, instead, to give
... in a manner chance providing one - with WHAT one can
believe. Perhaps it is the time one has... to put her hand on
things... undistracted by the children that still fall -
torrential rain. Perhaps it is the time one has to clarify his
mind, to look instead into a light he's 'warned' would strike
him blind?

The SEVENTH level's sweeter than the pyramid implies. Greater
than its sum of parts, a synergy's contrived. It's here there's
elevation that your 'God' has even feared. It's here there comes
advancement as one cuts away ones fear. It's here there is
progression as the grasp assumes its reach. It's here, perhaps
advancement as the reachers turn to teach. It's here, mayhap,
improvement of an efficacious kind; it's here one knows the
_pleasure_ of the perspicacious mind.

At seven one's 'self-actualized' and is reaching for the
stars... one touches shining levels that are bright as golden
bars! "Reach" and "grasp" become as one, and magic happens fast.
Reality is sorted out, and firmly gripped at last. Acceptance is
ones common sense for others as they are -- themselves, the
world or what's outside... the space between the stars.

The flavor's spontaneity. The behavior is the creed - the
evidence considerable... for routine there's little need. The
problem's at the center of the point of the concern, the self is
secondary (though the hardest to be learned). The theme is rare
detachment, the "forest for the trees". Gestalt is common -
usual... avoids behaviorism's fleas.

Requiring modest privacy so the thinking bubbles up, these
'actualized' are worth the time they spend apart from us. They
change the world's thinking as they think the thoughts they do.
Improving our humanity, they can see a problem through. Required
(?) - an independence from distraction lower down on the levels
of their pyramid that they've built on quaking ground. They NEED
their grand autonomy that they EARN by giving back... useful
fruits of thoughtful labor as they take us 'there' and back!

Resistance is mechanical to any dogma one has brought.
Stereotyped behaviors are eschewed as more than not. They don't
judge, but don't participate; not flamboyant, they don't try...
to stretch the unconventional to a point one should despise.
They seek the common welfare, and an increase of the same.
They're not apart from empathy so that suffering is tamed.
Relationships are deeper (with a few), and less is more.
Superficiality is detested to its core. They see the democratic
as the path to be maintained, where misery is shared on out,
thereby, wiping out that pain. The joy is shared the same damned
way, but increases for the daring. The reward's a satisfaction
we achieve for earnest sharing!

...And then comes their transcendence, they don't cope, they
SOAR and CLEAVE! Environment's a treasured thing that keeps one
off her knees. Creation is the answer and the fund of real
wealth; it satisfies the 'hunger', and provokes a better health.
It brings a PEAK EXPERIENCE ; it is RAPTURE ; it is JOY; it's
self regenerating so there's independence, boy! It's excitement,
and it's insight, and it's not for just a few! More could well
achieve it with their structures so imbued.

Imbued with what, you're asking? Well, imbued with what
supports! A better wage, and time to think, clean WATER, by
report. The path is SELF-constructed in a pyramid one makes to
reach the sky and grasp the truth from charlatans and fakes.
Expand upon potential! Elevate your mind, and cleave to soar
unlimited, unbound, and unconfined!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Self-actualization. More could (should) have it, and all would
(shall) be IMPROVED for these having it. Read on.


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                        Re: Refuting Fermi - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:56:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:43:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Refuting Fermi - Friedman


 >From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids@anv.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Refuting Fermi
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:39:27 -0800

 >The enclosed article by John Alexander may be of interest to
 >your readership. It was recently posted to the What's New
 >section of the NIDS web site (http://www.nidsci.org)

 >Sincerely
 >Colm Kelleher
 >NIDS

 >-----

 >Refuting Fermi: No Evidence for Extraterrestrial Life?
 >By: John B. Alexander

 >In a recent article Seth Shostak drew attention what has become
 >known as the Fermi Paradox. Typically discussants raise the
 >famous off-hand luncheon comment by Enrico Fermi, "Where is
 >everybody?" when dismissing the existence of intelligent
 >extraterrestrial life. The invocation of such a distinguished
 >figure is polemic and used to make the position academically
 >unassailable.

 >In the ranks of scientific loyalists there is a constant refrain
 >pertaining to the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial
 >life. Best phrased by Carl Sagan, known for his "billions and
 >billions" quotation in developing the hypothesis that we share
 >the universe with other forms of intelligence, he added "but
 >there is not one shred of evidence to support it." Really?
 >Actually, the book he co-edited with Thornton Page, UFOS: A
 >Scientific Debate, refutes his own statement. The deductive
 >error is conflation of lack of evidence with proof beyond a
 >reasonable doubt.

 >Edward Condon fostered this misconstruction in his fatally
 >flawed and internally inconsistent report on UFOs. Despite the
 >widely published conclusions, his report too contained
 >substantial evidence supporting the physical existence of these
 >objects. The error is the a priori assumption that UFOs cannot
 >exist therefore no evidence to the contrary will be considered,
 >never mind accepted. Few scientists would allow such faulty
 >logic to prevail in their own field of expertise. Yet, in the
 >emotionally laden field of UFOs, scientists let Condon stand
 >uncorrected and disregarding pertinent facts has become the
 >accepted norm.

 >The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of
 >multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible
 >witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos,
 >radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces
 >including depressions and anomalous residual radiation,
 >electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological
 >effects. Personal observations have been made both day and
 >night, often under excellent visibility with some at close
 >range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses
 >to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has
 >confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this
 >considered evidence?

 >There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which
 >include interference with flight controls. On numerous
 >occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have
 >noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several
 >astronomers and other competent scientists reported their
 >personal observations. Many military officials from several
 >countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The
 >most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and
 >recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have
 >stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a
 >miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.

 >Of course they do not constitute irrefutable proof. However, to
 >state there is no evidence suggestive of intelligent
 >extraterrestrial life simply belies the facts. Decades in
 >duration and global in nature, there are too many hard sensor
 >data-points and millions of eyewitnesses to ignore. We certainly
 >can debate the significance of specific data and question
 >whether or not it establishes a causal relationship between the
 >observations and extraterrestrial life. However, it is only
 >through ignorance or pomposity that one can say no evidence
 >exists.

I am in full agreement with John having discussed the "Fermi
Paradox" in my 2001 MUFON paper "Flying Saucers and the Cosmic
Neighborhood". It should be noted that Fermi's comment came
after a discussion that strongly suggested that a civilization
could colonize the galaxy in a few million years.

He may have asked the question as a teaching tool, expecting
colleagues to suggest that they may have been visiting and
quarantining us, or making sure we couldn't take our brand of
friendship out there. After all, considering that Zeta l and
Zeta 2 Reticuli are about a billion years older than the sun and
less than a light year apart,and only 37 light years away, they
may have long ago colonized the neighborhood or set us up as a
colony, a game preserve, a prision for banishment of bad boys
and girls, etc. As I noted in the paper, there could have been
dozens of civilizations here over the past billion years about
which we know nothing. Schliemann had to dig down 75 feet to
find Troy from just a few thousand years ago. How many
civilizations here have been destroyed by asteroids, comets,
wars, continental upheavals, volcanos, etc etc.?

My paper also points out the fallacy of using the Drake equation
as a means of determining how many civilizations are out there.

The worst aspects of such SETI cultists as Shostak, Drake,
Tartar, Sagan are their failure to examine both the UFO evidence
and the astronautics data about interstellar travel. Their
ignorance hasn't stood in the way of their totally baseless
proclamations about both matters. Check their references and you
begin to understand why I think SETI stands for Silly Effort To
Investigate.

My paper is in the 2001 MUFON Conference Proceedings and is also
available as a separate item from UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, ME
04730-0958. Only $4.00 including S and H.

Stan Friedman








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                           UFO Sinks Fishing Boat

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:31:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:31:28 -0500
Subject: UFO Sinks Fishing Boat

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/auto/newsdesk/20011027164136ymnews.html

27 November 2001

UFO Sinks Fishing Boat

The Portsmouth-registered fishing boat 'Fin Ar Bed' struck an
unidentified floating object shortly before 1130 yesterday
morning, holing so badly that the three crew were forced to
abandon ship and take to the liferaft. The vessel sank within 45
minutes of the collision.

Holyhead Coastguard received a Mayday call at 1130 on Monday
morning. The Fin Ar Bed had been potting in deep water, 15 miles
NNW of South Stack off the Holyhead peninsula, when she hit - or
was hit by - an object at 53=B0 34N 04=B0 47W. A large hole was
carved in the side of the hull and she started taking on water
quickly. The crew had just enough time to send a Mayday call
before abandoning the vessel in liferafts.

Holyhead Coastguard immediately alerted RAF Valley's SAR wing,
requested the launch of Holyhead lifeboat and prepared the
Holyhead Coastguard rescue team. The call was also relayed on Ch
16 and several nearby vessels responded with offers of
assistance.

A rescue helicopter was scrambled from RAF Valley and the three
men were winched to safety and taken to Holyhead Coastguard
Station where the men were found to be shaken and cold but
otherwise well.

"The three fishing vessel crew were quickly retrieved after
their ordeal and were in some ways fortunate in that the weather
was reasonable for the rescue with south westerly Force 2 winds,
good visibility and blue skies," said David North, Watch manager
at Holyhead Coastguard.

"It is a mystery as to what the vessel could have hit in the
water, however it must have been quite substantial to have made
such significant damage in quite deep water." Gales have
prevented any reconnaissance of the area but everything points
to a collision with a lost container.


UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                   New Planet Sparks Hopes For Alien Life

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:34:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:34:20 -0500
Subject: New Planet Sparks Hopes For Alien Life

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spacedocumentary/story/0,2763,608237,00.html

New Planet Sparks Hopes For Alien Life

Astrobiologists speculate over star system 150 light
years away

Tim Radford, science editor
Wednesday November 28, 2001
The Guardian

Astronomers have used the Hubble space telescope to detect the
atmosphere of a planet circling a star 150 light years away.

The discovery reawakens the dream of detecting extraterrestrial
life in other star systems. A new breed of astrobiologists is
convinced that life on any distant planet would leave its
signature in the air - just as methane and oxygen in the Earth's
atmosphere would be a clue to any passing aliens that the planet
was inhabited.

"Only a decade ago, planets outside the solar system were still
in the realm of science fiction," said David Charbonneau, of the
California Institute of Technology, who led the study.
"Searching for a star's unseen planetary companion was crazy.
Hoping to see its atmosphere was even crazier."

Now planets are discovered monthly, and even their atmospheres
are in reach, he said. "Suddenly, discussing searches for
Earth-like planets seems quite reasonable."

But he discovered no sign of life. The atmosphere of the planet
that circles the star HD209458, in the constellation Pegasus, is
rich in sodium. The planet itself is likely to be an
inhospitable gas giant, like Jupiter.

More than 80 planets have now been identified around distant
stars. Most of these planets have to be inferred from the
gravitational wobble they create in their parent star. But this
one was different. The tilt of its orbit meant that it had to
pass in front of its star, causing it to dim very faintly, every
3.5 days, which meant that, for the first time, researchers
could detect an extraterrestrial planet directly.

But the planet orbits at a distance of only 4m miles from the
mother star's surface. This closeness heats its atmosphere to
more than 1,100C (2012F). It also meant that every 3.5 days some
of the star's light passed through the planet's atmosphere on
its way to Earth. Astronomers could use a technique called
spectroscopy to analyse this light and read the "signature" of
any elements in the atmosphere. This is the same technique that
first identified the element helium in the sun.

Both Nasa and the European Space Agency have elaborate plans for
fleets of spacecraft that will use subtle techniques to sift the
evidence from presently-invisible planets far across the galaxy.
None of these are likely to be launched for a decade. The
detection of sodium in the light of HD209458 could add new
urgency to their plans.

"It is hugely exciting to nail down anything at all about
something as mysterious as planets outside our solar system,"
said Timothy Brown of the National Centre for Atmospheric
Research, who worked with Dr Charbonneau. "Is this planet's
chemical personality unique or is it typical of a certain class
of extrasolar planets? We have no clue. We hope to find out."


UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                         UFO Crash 'Blinded My Cows'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:39:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:39:50 -0500
Subject: UFO Crash 'Blinded My Cows'

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_461647.html

Story filed: 19:06 Thursday 29th November 2001


UFO Crash 'Blinded My Cows'

A Brazilian farmer says an explosion from a mid-air crash
between two UFOs has blinded his cattle herd.

Five other villagers in Corguinho, south-west Brazil, also say
they witnessed the crash.

Farmer Getulio Alves says the explosion burned nearby trees but
police say they haven't found any evidence.

Maria Lucia Vidal de Souza, from the Doorway Project which
provides UFO information to tourists, is heading the
investigation.

She told O Estado de Sao Paulo: "The blast happened in a
hard-to-reach place, we still haven't found the wreckage, but
soon we'll find it and prove it's all true."

---

UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                 UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:40:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:40:24 -0500
Subject: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?

http://www.ufocity.com/breaking.cfm?NewsID=3D942

Brazil: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?


Source: Diario Las Ultimas Noticias
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001

Several witnesses in a Brazilian city
Claim Having Seen Exploding UFO
DPA
Campo Grande (Brasil)


The alleged explosion of an unidentified flying object (UFO)
drew attention to the small Brazilian city of Corguinho, a
community of 3,800 people in the southwestern corner of the
state of Matto Grosso do Sul. The "silent explosion" that lit
the skies over Corguinho occured around 23:00 hours last
Saturday attracted a group of UFO researchers with Projecto
Portal, an organization dedicated to alleged extraterrestrial
activity.

"Between 15 and 20 people witnessed the explosion," stated Mar=EDa
Lucia Vidal de Souza, a member of Proyecto Portal, who guided
the group of tourists who saw the phenomenon. The group included
Fabio Jr. a well-known Brazilian actor and singer. "We reached
the site at midnight on Saturday after having received notice
from a local landowner of lights crossing the sky from one end
to another. Finally, the light intensified. Since [the
explosion] occurred in a hard-to-reach location, we still
haven't found any remains, but we hope to do so soon," concluded
Vidal de Souza. In spite of this, the sheriff of Corguinho,
Marco Antonio Balsamini, who visited the site on Monday, claims
not having found any trace whatsoever of aliens.

NOTE: The Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)M has received
cautionary messages from Esdras Martins in Brazil and Luis
Eduardo Pacheco in Argentina regarding the possible fraudulent
nature of this case.

#################

Translation (C) 2001. Scott Corrales, Institute of
Hispanic Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi and
Scott Corrales.
---

UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                             Fermi's Paradox III

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:15:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:15:58 -0500
Subject: Fermi's Paradox III

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_fermi3_011129.html


Fermi's Paradox III: Zookeepers, Alien Visitors, Or Simple Life;
How Can We Explain Our Isolation?

By Seth Shostak
Astronomer, Project Phoenix
posted: 07:00 am ET
29 November 2001

We seem to have the Galaxy to ourselves. At least, that=92s the
obvious conclusion from the apparent lack of aliens in the
neighborhood.

But this conclusion might be a bit too obvious, and possibly
wrong. In previous articles, we=92ve considered why
extraterrestrial intelligence =96 even if common =96 would have
restrained itself from spreading to every half-decent star
system in the Galaxy. It=92s possible that the aliens have done
cost-benefit analyses that show interstellar travel to be too
costly or too dangerous to warrant ambitious colonization
efforts. An alternative suggestion that would explain our
apparent solitude is that the Galaxy is urbanized, and we=92re in
a dullsville suburb.

Yet another resolution for the so-called Fermi Paradox is that
we=92ve been singled out for special treatment: we are an exhibit
for alien tourists or sociologists. Our world may be known to
the extraterrestrials, but they observe us through a
sophisticated type of one-way mirror.

While there=92s no evidence to give credibility to this last idea
(known as the "Zoo Hypothesis"), many would argue that evidence
does exist for another possibility =96 namely, that the Paradox is
just a red herring because the aliens are in the neighborhood.
In fact, they=92re in our back yards, or just above them.

Many thousands of sightings of unidentified flying objects
(UFOs) are reported each year, and polls show that one-third to
one-half of the population believes that at least some of these
aerial apparitions are alien spacecraft. The presence of aliens
on Earth would neatly resolve the Fermi Paradox.

But while this is a prevalent idea among the public, the
evidence for alien visitation has failed to sway most
scientists. To convince researchers, who are inherently
skeptical, unambiguous and repeated detection of flying objects
by satellites or ground-based radar would be required. Better
yet would be some indisputable physical evidence, such as the
landing lights from an alien craft. In other words, something
better than witness testimony is necessary, since such testimony
isn=92t good enough, no matter how credible the witness.

Consider the fact that lots of people claim to have seen ghosts,
and will be pleased to tell you what they saw. But the case for
the existence of these shrouded spirits isn=92t what you would
call convincing. You don=92t read a lot about the parameters of
ghosts in scholarly journals.

Until and unless better evidence is collected, few scientists
are inclined to accept the premise that the Fermi Paradox can be
resolved by the claim that aliens are either soaring through the
stratosphere, or are stashed away in meat lockers at Area 51.

Of course, there=92s no doubt that aliens in the neighborhood
would be dramatic news, and that=92s part of the appeal of such
claims. But the opposite circumstance would be similarly
startling. What if we have failed to espy the extraterrestrials
simply because there aren=92t any? After all, the evolution of
intelligence may be a rare occurrence, even if biology is
common. Could it be that in the enormous reaches of the Milky
Way, ours is the only planet with thinking beings? That would
neatly solve the puzzle posed by Fermi. And no matter how
discouraging (or otherwise) the thought of being unique may be,
we still haven=92t the proof that it isn=92t true.

While possible resolutions of Fermi=92s Paradox are as plentiful
as gas stations, we still have no idea which, if any, is
correct. Perhaps the universe is teeming with societies so
subtle we can=92t prove their presence. Or haven=92t yet. On the
other hand, maybe we=92re alone.

It=92s all a bit perplexing, but in fact there=92s hope. SETI
experiments offer the promise of relegating the Fermi Paradox to
the dustbin of historical curiosities by proving that other
intelligence is out there. So while it=92s interesting and
instructive to consider the pros and cons of galactic
colonization, we should also make sure that we do some careful
observing. In science, speculation is desirable, but experiment
is definitive.

---

UFO UpDates thanks:

The Anomalist - http://www.anomalist.com/

for the lead.....







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:49:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:20:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Balaskas


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:35:21 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

<snip>

 >JimO reports this item which might have gotten lost in the
 >recent s---storm (that's s--- for sNOW) and modestly brings it
 >to Filer's attention so he can respond with equal
 >graciousness...

 >And again, the likelihood is certainly there that it has already
 >been corrected and that i in my inadequate scholarship just
 >haven't been able to find it.

 >-----

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >Filer's Files #16
 >4-24-99

 >Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >(Time magazine),

 >The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >Robert White.

 >The final paragraph reads: 'New Mystery: After the sky-stabbing
 >record flight last week, four X-15 pilots -- White, Walker,
 >North American's Scott Crossfield, and Navy Commander Forrest
 >Petersen -- journeyed to Washington, where President Kennedy
 >gave them the Robert J. Collier Trophy, presented annually since
 >1911 for outstanding achievements in flight.

 >But for White and his fellow X-15 pilots, the greatest reward
 >for their work is the satisfaction of probing the mysteries
 >inside the sky. In last week's flight Bob White found a new
 >mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
 >left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
 >out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
 >'There absolutely is.'

 >As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
 >paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
 >was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
 >any idea what it could be.'

 >Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
 >off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
 >propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
 >attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
 >explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
 >especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
 >common sight on orbital missions.

 >In ANY case, the use of the TIME article with omission of the
 >explanatory comments such as the small size of the sighted
 >object and its appearance -- tumbling, looking like a piece of
 >paper -- is a simple case of fraud. Somebody expected to have no
 >problem promulgating this deliberately distorted story among the
 >UFO buffs at whom it was aimed. And as far as I can tell, it's
 >worked.

 >George Filer report (never retracted), April 1999

Hi Jim.

I took a few minutes off work to visit the York University
library which has back issues of TIME magazine to locate this
article and check out this last paragraph for myself. I found
the article which you (and George Filer) mentioned in your
e-mail above. It was found in the 'SPACE' section of the
magazine and has the title 'Inside the Sky'. The article itself
(which I photocopied and can provide copies to anyone who is
interested) starts with one column on page 14 and ends with two
columns and two pictures on page 15 (not pages 12 and 13). The
first picture, which shows the X-15 in the background, is
captioned 'MAJOR WHITE WITH SON AFTER THE FLIGHT "There ARE
things out there"' (The word ARE is underlined). The second
picture is captioned 'WHITE WITH WIFE' (They are kissing in this
picture).

The last paragraph of the TIME magazine article is reproduced
below (New Mystery is in bold letters) and agrees with the
version that George Filer wrote in his newsletter:


      New Mystery. After the sky-stabbing record
      flight last week, four X-15 pilots - White,
      Walker, North American's Scott Crossfield and
      Navy Commander Forrest Peterson - journeyed
      to Washington, where President Kennedy gave
      them the Robert J. Collier Trophy, presented
      annually since 1911 for outstanding
      achievement in flight. But for White and his
      fellow X-15 pilots, the greatest reward for
      their work is the satisfaction of probing the
      mysteries inside the sky. In last week's
      flight Bob White found a new mystery for
      scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's
      thick left quartz window, he saw a strange
      sight. "There ARE things out there," he said
      dramatically over his voice radio. "There
      absolutely is." As White later described one
      "thing": "It looked like a piece of paper the
      size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the
      plane. It was greyish in color, and about 30
      to 40 feet away. I haven't any idea what it
      could be."


The "greatest reward" for the X-15 pilots was "probing the
mysteries inside the sky". What mysteries are there at the edge
of space? White, an experienced pilot and I presume keen
observer, is quoted as saying "there ARE things out there" and
"there absolutely is", do you really think he confused ice
flaking off his plane for UFOs?

Years ago I got a phone call from the owner of an optical
manufacturing business just north of Toronto near York
University. He called to tell me that a certain General, head of
the U.S. military space program, visited him and wanted to know
if he could construct optical tracking equipment for rapidly
moving things in the upper atmosphere. My friend wanted to know
what things and asked the General in jest if he was really
interested in observing UFOs, to his surprise, the General
answered in the affirmative... Maybe White was right - there ARE
things out there.

Exactly what part in George Filer's original story do you feel
is incorrect and should be retracted?

Nick Balaskas






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                        Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:22:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:23:07 -0500
Subject: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles


Hi Everyone,

Permit me make some comments of my own regarding Nancy Talbot's
crop circle research.

There were some details in Nancy Talbot's description of the
beams she and Robbert v/d Broeke saw and mentioned on Errol's
UFO radio show last weekend that do not support her
interpretation that they were flashes of light (about a second
in duration) coming down from the sky to the ground. Since
Robbert (who was in the first floor) saw a 4 inch diameter beam
of light while Nancy (who was on the second floor) saw an 8 to
12 inch diameter beam of light, which she describes as a
"searchlight" in her written report, it must have been just
that. Many cars have 4 inch diameter headlights and so do some 1
million candlepower searchlights one can readily buy at most
hardware stores which produce such diverging beams of light. It
is not unusual for cows to become excited with some unfamilar
and unexpected activity at night, such as a stranger with a
powerful flashlight.

Since Nancy failed to prove to me that the short duration beams
of light came from above and not below (how could one even say
considering how fast light travels) and failed to establish a
connection to the bawling cows (have they been known to bawl at
other occasions too or just when the beams of light were
noticed?), she cannot claim to be a witness to the creation of a
crop circle. Considering the lights were on and her room well
lit, I am a little surprised that Nancy even noticed the beams
of light outside, even if her bedroom window had no curtains
(she didn't say).

The small orbs of light often photographed at night within crop
circles but which are rarely or ever reported to be seen
visually, can only be bugs very close to the camera lense. Nancy
did make mention on SDI of such flying bugs around the head of
one person within a crop circle. Since most flashbulbs give off
a bright bluish-white light, one would expect this colour to be
very prominent in the reflected bodies of the out-of-focus bugs
close to the camera. The bluish orbs of light in the few photos
Nancy posted on Rense's web site support the conclusion that
they are bugs, not some mystery visible light that can readily
be recorded on regular film but not detected with the human eye.

As for the mysterious particles found within crop circles but
not outside which could only be created by extremely high
temperatures and/or pressures but did not cook or totally crush
the crops is scientific evidence that the crop circle sites were
seeded with these particles by the aliens or hoaxers that
produced them. Charcoal and diamonds are made up of the same
Carbon atoms but have different crystal structures. We know that
we need extremely high temperatures and/or pressures to create
diamonds from charcoal. If Nancy found such diamonds within crop
circles, would she also conclude this is proof of their alien
origin or would she use her common sense and scientific
reasoning and come to the reasonable conclusion that the crop
circles were seeded with these diamonds.

As for crops that exhibit differences within the circles not
found in the crops outside the circles, let me just say (without
giving future crop circle hoaxers any new ideas) that there are
readily available products at most garden stores that can
rapidly accelerate growth and even change the cellular elastic
properties in plants.

I admire researchers like Nancy who are trying to make an effort
to understand the crop circle phenomena but I feel that even
with what she has come up with so far, we still do not have any
compelling evidence for an alien or unnatural explanation for
even one crop circle. Maybe we never will if all crop circles
were all hoaxed - but some of us would never be satisfied with
this conclusion...

It was refreshing to listen to Nancy's crop circle research and
honest comments on Errol's UFO radio show last weekend. I cannot
no say the same about Phillip Krapf who was on Errol's 'Strange
Days... Indeed' show the previous weekend. Maybe Phillip's alien
friends were either lying to him about certain things or they
know much less about space travel, astronomy and other such
topics than we humans do.


Nick Balaskas







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                  Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:55:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:25:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Salvaille


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Hello David and all,

<snip>

 >>Isn't consistent logic such
 >>a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

 >Others of us may not share your "delight", since your ability to
 >find the von Braun quote citation in Good's book is logically
 >inconsistent with your seeming inability to find the Cernan
 >citation in the same book, in fact, even on the same page.

<snip>

James' position is logical and quite consistent.

Any serious student of the UFO phenomena is bound to reach the
inescapable conclusion that there MUST be something out there
that is outside the boundaries of the human experience.

If you reach the conclusion that there is nothing there, that
allcases are - will be - explainable, then one should suspect
that you haven't studied enough, or that you didn't catch it, or
that you'll never understand it, or you'll never admit it.

We should not be surprised by those blind points, voluntary
omissions, short, middle and long term amnesia, selective
recollections and so forth. They are the trademark and the
essentials of the debunkers: one must be wery well equiped to
negate reality and have the facts fit the beliefs.

My take is that debunkers have egos so big that that it prevents
them from admitting the evidence. They made the wrong choice
from the start ("there is nothing out there") and will never
admit that they were wrong.

Ufologists have the same inflated egos, mind you, but the
difference is that, luckily for them, they made the right choice
from the start: there is something there.


Regards,

Serge







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 29

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:59:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:35:21 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #48 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 28, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

 >JimO reports this item which might have gotten lost in the
 >recent s---storm (that's s--- for sNOW) and modestly brings it
 >to Filer's attention so he can respond with equal
 >graciousness...

 >And again, the likelihood is certainly there that it has already
 >been corrected and that i in my inadequate scholarship just
 >haven't been able to find it.

 >-----

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >Filer's Files #16
 >4-24-99

 >Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >(Time magazine),

 >The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >Robert White.

 >The final paragraph reads: 'New Mystery: After the sky-stabbing
 >record flight last week, four X-15 pilots -- White, Walker,
 >North American's Scott Crossfield, and Navy Commander Forrest
 >Petersen -- journeyed to Washington, where President Kennedy
 >gave them the Robert J. Collier Trophy, presented annually since
 >1911 for outstanding achievements in flight.

 >But for White and his fellow X-15 pilots, the greatest reward
 >for their work is the satisfaction of probing the mysteries
 >inside the sky. In last week's flight Bob White found a new
 >mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
 >left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
 >out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
 >'There absolutely is.'

 >As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
 >paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
 >was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
 >any idea what it could be.'

 >Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
 >off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
 >propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
 >attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
 >explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
 >especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
 >common sight on orbital missions.


Hi James,

Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
think it's getting a bit old.

Open to any reasonable suggestions.

Don Ledger


Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:35:21 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>FILER'S FILES #48 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>November 28, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >>Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

 >JimO reports this item which might have gotten lost in the
 >recent s---storm (that's s--- for sNOW) and modestly brings it
 >to Filer's attention so he can respond with equal
 >graciousness...

 >And again, the likelihood is certainly there that it has already
 >been corrected and that i in my inadequate scholarship just
 >haven't been able to find it.

 >-----

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >Filer's Files #16
 >4-24-99

 >Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >(Time magazine),

 >The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >Robert White.

 >The final paragraph reads: 'New Mystery: After the sky-stabbing
 >record flight last week, four X-15 pilots -- White, Walker,
 >North American's Scott Crossfield, and Navy Commander Forrest
 >Petersen -- journeyed to Washington, where President Kennedy
 >gave them the Robert J. Collier Trophy, presented annually since
 >1911 for outstanding achievements in flight.

 >But for White and his fellow X-15 pilots, the greatest reward
 >for their work is the satisfaction of probing the mysteries
 >inside the sky. In last week's flight Bob White found a new
 >mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
 >left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
 >out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
 >'There absolutely is.'

 >As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
 >paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
 >was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
 >any idea what it could be.'

 >Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
 >off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
 >propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
 >attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
 >explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
 >especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
 >common sight on orbital missions.


Hi James,

Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
think it's getting a bit old.

Open to any reasonable suggestions.

Don Ledger







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                 Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:40:15 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:58:31 -0500
Subject: Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Gevaerd


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - >
 >Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 1:40 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?


 >Source: UFOCity.com

 >http://www.ufocity.com/breaking.cfm?NewsID=3D942

 >Brazil: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?

 >Source: Diario Las Ultimas Noticias
 >Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001

 >Several witnesses in a Brazilian city
 >Claim Having Seen Exploding UFO
 >DPA
 >Campo Grande (Brasil)


<snip>

 >NOTE: The Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)M has received
 >cautionary messages from Esdras Martins in Brazil and Luis
 >Eduardo Pacheco in Argentina regarding the possible fraudulent
 >nature of this case.


Dear Friends,

The story of a UFO crash in the small city of Corguinho, state
of Mato Grosso do Sul, is completely false. It was created by a
very unreliable individual who has been caught in many other
tricks in the past. He is Urandir Fernandes Oliveira, who was
publicly exposed 5 years ago as probably the all-time most
successful 'UFO hoaxer' in the world. His co-hoaxer, in this new
'case', is Maria Lucia Vidal de Souza, who claims to be a UFO
researcher but isn't recognized as such by anybody. Both are
members of a suspicious Project Portal (Doorway), which has been
relentlessly criticized in Brazil for its fanatic behavior.
Urandir is the founder of it and a "Guru" to its members.

Project Portal has become the largest 'UFO Cult' in the world
today. Urandir and a few of his 'co-workers' have gathered a
considerable fortune in money and properties with their hoaxes.
The Brazilian UFO community has frequently exposed their actions
and national press has largely published negative material on
him, but he still continues his 'activities'. Major sources of
income to Urandir are the visits that tourists and interested
people nake to his Project Portal, which are very expensive. It
is estimated that over 50,000 people have been to the place, and
more than 200,000 have attended to his so-called 'Contact
Classes' in many parts of Brazil. He was caught many times using
laser pointers and special type of lights to fool tourists and
other people who go to his farm, near Corguinho, where his
project is based.

On March 2000, Urandir and Maria Lucia were arrested in Porto
Alegre for four days for selling parts of a farm that didn't
belong to them. Over 6,000 people, who were induced by him to
believe that they would be safe from Armageddon and rescued by
ETs if they move to the property, purchased the land. They never
saw a piece of it! Over the years Urandir has tried several
maneuvers to keep fooling people in lectures, workshops and
expensive lessons on 'How To Contact Ets'. He claims to be, but
was never recognized as, a 'contactee' in Brazil by the UFO
community and is now totally discredited. One of his many
stories is that he's an extraterrestrial living on Earth.
Urandir generally presents himself as an Mine Engineer, but his
formal education didn't reach secondary level (high school). His
last occupation was as a construction worker. He is not to be
taken seriously.

The supposed explosion took place on Saturday, 24 November,
23:00 h. The place is a very beautiful location near the city of
Corguinho, 85 km from Campo Grande, capital of Mato Grosso do
Sul, where I reside. I have been investigating Urandir and
Project Portal since 1995. In 1997 I exposed, nationwide, the
complete scheme to be a hoax and described its purpose, which is
to make money. My life has been threatened many times because of
that and local authorities have been informed. Last Monday, 26
November, I went to the farm where the 'events' took place. I
interviewed the witnesses and found several contradictions. What
they saw was nothing more than a ball of light at a distance of
200 m. It came from sky, descended close to ground but did not
touch it. Then it went up some 50 m and descended again, aagain
not touching the ground. At this point, it increased its size
and disappeared without any explosion, sound, marks on the
ground, nothing. There is no evidence of crash at all.

This kind of sighting is common in the area and in many other
places in Brazil. The main witness is Getulio Alves, the owner
of Fazenda Boqueir=E3o, the farm where it happened. Conveniently
for Urandir, this property is a neighbor of his Project Portal.
Getulio and Urandir are 'together' in this story. Getulio
actually saw something, as I described above, but it was Urandir,
with the sole purpose of attracting more people and tourists to
his scheduled "UFO-Christmas" events, that invented the story of
the crash. This fake news is now big in Brazil and reaching
overseas, unfortunately.

The fact that animals have been affected by the explosion is
also a fake. These animals had been injured for one entire week
before the 'happening' of 24 November. They are only two calves
that each had an eye injured. Nothing more. Also, there's no
confirmed sign of radioactivity, just as there is no sign on the
vegetation that indicates any crash. No tree was damaged, grass
burned, rocks disturbed. Local police have been to the place and
Sheriff Marco Antonio Balsamini confirmed that absolutely no
evidence of such a crash exists.


All the best,

A. J. Gevaerd
Editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine
National Director, Mutual UFO Network










UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:49:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:19:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Maybe you would care to address the inconsistency of your claim
 >that you couldn't find the Cernan citation, even though it was
 >right there with the von Braun citation in Good's book.


Maybe we should concentrate on the quality of the evidence
rather than finding ways to avoid looking at it.






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:58:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:21:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


 >Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >think it's getting a bit old. Open to any reasonable suggestions.


Don, I think you are subconsciously 'adding in' details to the
X-15 case, which as far as I remember it, actually DID occur in
space, not 'within the atmosphere'. Do you have any evidence
that this flight in question and this sighting in question was
in the atmosphere?

I don't think NASA or other real space experts are 'getting
away' with the ice explanation, I think it's become this
generation's 'swamp gas', a story at which all manner of
ridicule and ignorant mockery is aimed, to discredit it as the
true, prosaic explanation of some striking visula cases which
seem to have gotten mainstream ufologist blessing.










UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:53:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:49:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


 >Exactly what part in George Filer's original story do you feel
 >is incorrect and should be retracted?

The part that _left_out_ the 'minor detail' about what White saw
out his window, that "It looked like a piece of paper the size
of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane."

I assert that without those additional details, a typical reader
would jump to very erroneous interpretations about what kind of
'thing' White was describing. And the error, I believe, was
intentional, not accidental, because such explanatory testimony
is often omitted.










UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                          Secrecy News -- 11/30/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:57:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:26:05 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/30/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
November 30, 2001


**      AN UNCLASSIFIED CIA DEATH
**      INTELLIGENCE SPENDING FOR COUNTERRORISM
**      RESOURCES


AN UNCLASSIFIED CIA DEATH

The death of CIA officer Johnny Micheal Spann in Afghanistan was
acknowledged with dignity and eloquence on November 28 by
Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet.

In an extraordinary departure from past practice, however, the
CIA issued a press release about Spann's death:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/pr11282001.html

Why did the Agency take this unusual step?

CIA spokesman Bill Harlow told Reuters that "Some circumstances
will permit you to identify people who have given their lives
for their country and for the Agency and when we can do so, we
do."

But this is not a satisfactory explanation or an accurate
description of CIA disclosure policy.

There is a stubborn, irrational resistance to disclosure of such
information, author Ted Gup found in his recent study "The Book
of Honor: Covert Lives and Classified Deaths at the CIA." The
Book of Honor refers to the record of those CIA officers who
were killed in the line of duty (of which there are now 79),
nearly half of whom are still not identified by name but only by
an engraved star.

"Douglas S. Mackiernan was killed on the Tibetan border in
1950," wrote Gup last year.  "His star remains nameless.  So,
too, does that of Hugh Francis Redmond, who died in 1970 after
nineteen years in a Chinese prison.  In both instances the
Chinese knew they were CIA spies.  Only the American public did
not."

This practice is not only an injustice to the memory of those
who died, it is also bad policy because it erodes the already
shaky credibility of CIA classification actions.

It is possible to do better.

Thus, in the course of his investigation Ted Gup learned the
identity of "a young woman [CIA officer] who died a violent and
selfless death in 1996" but did not reveal her name because "The
Agency made a compelling case that to identify her would put
others at risk."

Information about "The Book of Honor" by Ted Gup may be found
here:

http://www.randomhouse.com/anchor/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0385495412

A volatile former CIA counterterrorism officer named Larry
Johnson yesterday accused the CIA of engaging in a "public
relations battle" at the expanse of Mr. Spann's family who, he
suggested, are now "at risk" as a result.  Mr. Johnson spoke on
the PBS News Hour:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/fedagencies/July-dec01/cia_11-29.html

According to a CIA spokesman, Johnny Micheal Spann's middle name
is properly spelled "Micheal" and not, as New York Times editors
and others have emended it, "Michael."


INTELLIGENCE SPENDING FOR COUNTERRORISM

The House of Representatives described with unwonted specificity
the amount of money allocated to the U.S. intelligence community
for emergency counterterrorism activities in the Defense
Appropriations bill that passed the House on November 28.

The House established a new Counter-Terrorism and Operational
Response Transfer Fund in Title IX of the defense spending bill
in which it directed that "$451,000,000 shall be made available
to the Director of Central Intelligence."

This is unusual since, as a rule, dollar amounts for
intelligence are not disclosed.

(The limited exceptions include spending for CIA retirement
accounts and for the Community Management Staff, which are
disclosed annually, as are funds for a variety of small tactical
intelligence programs in the defense budget.  In 1994, the House
Defense Appropriations subcommittee accidentally published more
detail.  See Secrecy & Government Bulletin, Issue No. 41,
November 1994; and "$28 Billion Spying Budget Is Made Public by
Mistake" by Tim Weiner, New York Times, November 5, 1994.)

The House allocated the new intelligence money, with additional
funds for the Defense Department, for the following purposes:

"For urgent enhancements to intelligence and military
capabilities in order to prosecute Operation Enduring Freedom;
to discover, infiltrate, and deter terrorist groups; to protect
against terrorist attacks that might employ either conventional
means or weapons of mass destruction, and to prepare against the
consequences of such attacks; to deny unauthorized users the
opportunity to modify, steal, inappropriately disclose, or
destroy sensitive military intelligence data or networks, and to
accelerate improvements in information networks and operations."

With notable passivity, the House directed the Pentagon and the
DCI to report back in 90 days on how they would spend the new
money.  See excerpts from the bill here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/funds.html

The White House opposed this Title IX provision of the defense
bill, arguing that the money should go into existing accounts
rather than into a new funding construct.  "The immediate effect
of this legislation would be to fragment programs and disrupt
... ongoing activities," the Administration argued.  See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/legislative/sap/107-1/HR3338-h.htm
l

"Since 1995, the congressional intelligence committees have
become less effective in providing public oversight and in
advancing needed reforms," writes Steven Aftergood in a letter
to the editor of the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/30/opinion/L30INTE.html


RESOURCES

Prepared testimony from the important November 28 hearing before
the Senate Judiciary Committee on "Preserving Our Freedoms While
Defending Against Terrorism" may be found here:

http://www.senate.gov/~judiciary/hr112801f.htm

In a healthy sign of resistance to unwarranted secrecy,
historians and public interest groups, represented by Public
Citizen, filed a lawsuit November 28 seeking to overturn the
recent executive order issued by President Bush that limits
access to the records of former presidents. See:

http://www.citizen.org/hot_issues/issue.cfm?ID=168


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
         subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
         http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Maccabee


 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:22:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles


 >Hi Everyone,

 >Permit me make some comments of my own regarding Nancy Talbot's
 >crop circle research.

<snip>

 >The small orbs of light often photographed at night within crop
 >circles but which are rarely or ever reported to be seen
 >visually, can only be bugs very close to the camera lense. Nancy
 >did make mention on SDI of such flying bugs around the head of
 >one person within a crop circle. Since most flashbulbs give off
 >a bright bluish-white light, one would expect this colour to be
 >very prominent in the reflected bodies of the out-of-focus bugs
 >close to the camera. The bluish orbs of light in the few photos
 >Nancy posted on Rense's web site support the conclusion that
 >tbe recorded on regular film but not detected with the human eye.


It is true that tiny bugs or dust particles close to the lens of
a modern flash camera can produce "flash orb" images.

For flash orb research see  http://brumac.8k.com/orb_1.html

Also:

www.cropcircleconnector.com/Dutch/LightOrbsSenseandNonsense.html

http://hometown.aol.com/Analogsys/index2.html

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/orbphotoexp1.htm







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                     Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:32:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee


 >Fermi's Paradox III: Zookeepers, Alien Visitors, Or Simple Life;
 >How Can We Explain Our Isolation?

 >By Seth Shostak
 >Astronomer, Project Phoenix
 >posted: 07:00 am ET
 >29 November 2001

<snip>

 >While theres no evidence to give credibility to this last idea
 >(known as the "Zoo Hypothesis"), many would argue that evidence
 >does exist for another possibility namely, that the Paradox is
 >just a red herring because the aliens are in the neighborhood.
 >In fact, theyre in our back yards, or just above them.

Actually the "UFO hypothesis" could be combined with the zoo
hypothesis to explain why they are "above our heads" while not
overtly communicating.

 >Many thousands of sightings of unidentified flying objects
 >(UFOs) are reported each year, and polls show that one-third to
 >aerial apparitions are alien spacecraft. The presence of aliens
 >on Earth would neatly resolve the Fermi Paradox.

 >But while this is a prevalent idea among the public, the
 >evidence for alien visitation has failed to sway most
 >scientists. To convince researchers, who are inherently
 >skeptical, unambiguous and repeated detection of flying objects
 >by satellites or ground-based radar would be required. Better
 >yet would be some indisputable physical evidence, such as the
 >landing lights from an alien craft. In other words, something
 >better than witness testimony is necessary, since such testimony
 >isnt good enough, no matter how credible the witness.

 >Consider the fact that lots of people claim to have seen ghosts,
 >and will be pleased to tell you what they saw. But the case for
 >the existence of these shrouded spirits isnt what you would
 >call convincing. You dont read a lot about the parameters of
 >ghosts in scholarly journals.

This shows how out-of-step Shostak really is. Regardless of
evidence for or against ghosts (or astrology or bigfoot or...
you name it) the fact is that UFO evidence consists of MORE than
just the report of a witness "no matter how credible the
witness". Multiple witness (credible witnesses) sightings
combined with radar and photographic are available. Shostak
suffers from the REAL reason why UFOs aren't accepted: the
SELF-cover up.

This is a subject that no one wants to admit is real because it
potentially... or very likely... represents a great loss in
"self-importance"... humans don't control things after all and
are the "mercy" of creatures of much greater ability (maybe).

Religion was established to handle this problem of lack of
control of the surroundings, the environment, life itself. Pray
for help. Maybe there is a great "spirit" out there that will
give you a measure of indirect control over the environment,
your enemies, whatever. (We see this being acted out in a big
way in Afghanoistan right now!) But religion assumes a
transcendent being in control. What if humanity were to suddenly
come face to face with material biological beings who seem to be
in control, or at least have much greater capa bility than we?
Think about it.

Do YOU want to announce the proof of UFO reality to the world...
and be responsible for the consequences?


 >Until and unless better evidence is collected, few scientists
 >are inclined to accept the premise that the Fermi Paradox can be
 >resolved by the claim that aliens are either soaring through the
 >stratosphere, or are stashed away in meat lockers at Area 51.

Scientists always want better evidence. EVen now the theory of
relativity is being tested to get "better evidence." So that
should not be a criterion for doing something NOW with eh
Evidence we have already. We should accept the available
evidence as pointing toward a particular explanation for UFO
sightings.... and prepare ourselves for probable
eventualities... when the self-cover up is ripped away by
"incontrovertible proof" (whatever that might be).

Read Abduction In My Life for further amplification on this
problem of what do we do with what we already know.

see: http://brumac.8k.com

(nearly 25,000 hits this year) and

www.amazon.com

for sample writing and review.







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:06:53 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:34:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >>MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>Filer's Files #16
 >>4-24-99

 >>Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >>fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >>(Time magazine),

 >>The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >>entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >>Robert White.

<snip>

 >>In last week's flight Bob White found a new
 >>mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
 >>left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
 >>out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
 >>'There absolutely is.'

 >>As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
 >>paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
 >>was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
 >>any idea what it could be.'

 >>Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
 >>off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
 >>propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
 >>attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
 >>explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
 >>especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
 >>common sight on orbital missions.


 >Hi James,

 >Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >think it's getting a bit old.

 >Open to any reasonable suggestions.

 >Don Ledger

Don,

I have exactly the same take on this as you. Thanks for putting
it out there for discussion. White reached an altitude of about
60 miles traveling about 4000 mph. I don't know at what point in
his trip he sighted the object. Let's assume it was at his
maximum altitude of 60 miles. There's not much atmosphere up
there, but it's also not a true vacuum. Meteorites made of rock
and metal, not to mention satellites, start burning up at this
altitude, but not this flat, fragile, completely non-aerodynamic
"ice flake." Yeah right!

Furthermore, besides this flat "ice flake" being impervious to
vaporization by frictional heat, it was also immune to
frictional drag. After breaking off the engine in the rear, it
somehow migrated forward to be seen tumbling outside of White's
side porthole.

It's truly amazing what "ice flakes" are capable of doing in the
imagination of a debunker. The physical properties of such "ice
flakes" are so remarkable, I'm surprised NASA doesn't make our
spacecraft out of them. Why use metals and ceramics when we
could use "ice flake" skins, thus eliminating frictional drag
and reentry problems, all with one simple, inexpensive material?

Let's try another approach. Debunkers when attacking UFO
sightings, love to point out that it isn't possible to reliably
judge distance, size, and speed without a point of reference.
(We'll ignore, for the moment, whether White could have judged
the distance stereoscopically.) Furthermore, at 60 miles,
atmospheric haze as a crude guide to distance would be
eliminated. (An effect we've all seen where distant objects
appear closer on a very clear day, such as after a rain.) This
compounds the difficulty in judging distance out in space.

This being said, was the object really 30 to 40 feet away and
the size of White's hand? What if it was a mile away? Then it
might be 50+ feet across. If 10 miles away, then 500+ feet
across, etc.

Now, instead of a close, small (inexplicable) curiousity no
bigger than White's hand, we would have a distant, big
curiousity, perhaps UFOish in nature.

I don't know what it was either and am likewise open to
_reasonable_ suggestions. But "ice flakes" strike me as
physically impossible under the given circumstances.


David Rudiak






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                 Re: Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:23:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:36:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax - Hall


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Brazilian 'UFO Explosion' A Hoax
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:40:15 -0200

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - >
 >>Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 1:40 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?

 >>Source: UFOCity.com

 >>http://www.ufocity.com/breaking.cfm?NewsID=942

 >>Brazil: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?

 >>Source: Diario Las Ultimas Noticias
 >>Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001

 >>Several witnesses in a Brazilian city
 >>Claim Having Seen Exploding UFO
 >>DPA
 >>Campo Grande (Brasil)

 >>NOTE: The Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)M has received
 >>cautionary messages from Esdras Martins in Brazil and Luis
 >>Eduardo Pacheco in Argentina regarding the possible fraudulent
 >>nature of this case.

 >Dear Friends,

 >The story of a UFO crash in the small city of Corguinho, state
 >of Mato Grosso do Sul, is completely false. It was created by a
 >very unreliable individual who has been caught in many other
 >tricks in the past. He is Urandir Fernandes Oliveira, who was
 >publicly exposed 5 years ago as probably the all-time most
 >successful 'UFO hoaxer' in the world. His co-hoaxer, in this new
 >'case', is Maria Lucia Vidal de Souza, who claims to be a UFO
 >researcher but isn't recognized as such by anybody. Both are
 >members of a suspicious Project Portal (Doorway), which has been
 >relentlessly criticized in Brazil for its fanatic behavior.
 >Urandir is the founder of it and a "Guru" to its members.

<snip>

 >All the best,

 >A. J. Gevaerd
 >Editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine
 >National Director, Mutual UFO Network


Thanks for this information, A.J. Fernandes Oliveira sounds very
much like the Brazilian Steven Greer.

- Richard







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                         George Harrison Dies At 58

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:17:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:38:52 -0500
Subject: George Harrison Dies At 58


Hello All,

Off-topic and 'unrelated' but I just wanted to post something
publicly about this tragic loss for us all.

George Harrison, the Beatles' quiet lead guitarist died at 1:30
p.m. yesterday (Nov. 29) at a friend's Los Angeles home
following a battle with cancer. Harrison's wife, Olivia
Harrison, and son Dhani, 24, were with him.

Music has always been an important component of my life. I have
been an active/playing drummer for 41 years. I taught myself
guitar 18 years ago. Any musician will tell you how _personally_
important all of the people we try to emulate as we learn can
be. While learning, you can become so intimately familiar with
someone's music that you feel a kinf of bond and a kinship with
them that goes well beyond what can be experienced by mere
listening. George was one of those many influences on me as I
struggled to master the guitar. As with many others I have taken
from him in order to create/find my own voice on the instrument.
George has touched more lives in ways that are not easily seen.
Touched lives in ways that go very deep into the soul. Another
light has gone out.

The Beatles, (especially John) mean a lot to me. I feel George's
loss as if it had been a family member. I'm sure we'll all miss
him very much.


Regards,

John Velez






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:58:52 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:42:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:49:06 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Maybe you would care to address the inconsistency of your claim
 >>that you couldn't find the Cernan citation, even though it was
 >>right there with the von Braun citation in Good's book.

 >Maybe we should concentrate on the quality of the evidence
 >rather than finding ways to avoid looking at it.

What sort of non-answer is that?

You were the one who came on UpDates like gangbusters claiming
no one would provide you with a citation on the Cernan quote,
insinuating that the quote was fabricated. All you had to do was
go to Good's book to get the citation.

The fact that you are familiar with Good and his various NASA
quotations is clearly evidenced by another UpDates post only
last Nov. 25, where you proudly detailed you're debunking of an
alleged quote he had from Werner von Braun. An excerpt from that
post:

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:29:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >Famous 'Wernher von Braun' UFO quotation debunked.
 >James Oberg

 >There is a widespread quotation attributed to Wernher von Braun
 >in 1959, apparently first printed by Timothy Good, as follows:

 >"We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than
 >we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown to
 >us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in
 >entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or
 >nine months time it may be possible to speak with some precision
 >on the matter."

 >This comment comes from "News Europa" Jan. 1959 and refers to
 >mysterious events during the re-entry phase of the Juno 2 rocket
 >during a test flight.

In the same chapter that has the von Braun quote has Cernan's
quote, the one you questioned as one you couldn't find any
original citation on. Yet you use Good's Neues Europa citation
for the von Braun quote to try to track it down, but failed to
use his Cernan citation.

Again, I ask why? Again, I'm sure you will dodge the question.

Despite your sanctimonius talk about concentrating "on the
quality of the evidence rather than finding ways to avoid
looking at it," this seems to be exactly what you are doing.

First, it is abundantly obvious that you didn't try all that
hard to find the citation on Cernan's quote. Whatever your
opinion of Good's book, it is heavily referenced, and has a full
chapter on NASA with all those astronaut quotes you obviously
love to debunk. If somebody had asked me about the Cernan quote
and a citation for it, Good's book would have been the first one
I would have grabbed to see if both were in there.

Second, when the Cernan quote was validated here on UpDates and
the full citation given, what was your response? From the same
Nov. 25 post:

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

<snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >trying to establish the consensus here.

When we cut through the Obergian double-talk, what you seem to
be saying is essentially this. Even though the LA Times article
and the quote in it had been verified as real, you refused to
accept that it "reflected the astronaut's true opinion" or "was
an accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant." To
you it was nothing more than "useful propaganda" for the "UFO
believers."

A few days later, Oberg repeated this refrain. He accepted the
article as authentic, but not the quotes, even though he
admitted the LA Times reporter was "known for accuracy."

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:19:04 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
 >attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'. When the
 >documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
 >accept the newspaper account as authentic. The connection
 >between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
 >beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
 >Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

Now who's the one actually "avoiding looking at the evidence"
here? I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot and Cernan had
instead said that anyone who thinks UFOs are real is a complete
loony, there would be no such huffing and puffing from Oberg
about the accuracy of the quote.

The irony is that Cernan didn't say he knew for a fact that
UFO's were real, merely that it was his opinion that they were,
and represented some other civilization, amongst many he thought
must exist in the universe on a statistical basis alone.

But even these rather benign comments, since they came from an astronaut,
seemingly must be eradicated by the NASA Taliban thought police (AKA James
Oberg).

In yet another post to UpDates, again dodging a response as to
why he couldn't find the citation, Oberg instead said he was
going to try to find the NASA videotape of the press conference:

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:04:03 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:30:52 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:53:24 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>It was no problem finding the article. Cernan's
 >>remarks were made during a press conference of Apollo 17
 >>astronauts in Houston (where Oberg lives) on Jan. 5, 1973.

 >What I can add is to get a tape of that press conference from
 >NASA-JSC and see if it was a question asked during the
 >conference, although it might have been asked face-to-face
 >either before or after the formal event.

Well that's fine. I hope he does come up with the videotape,
though I doubt if it will add anything new. If I may do a little
mindreading, however, it strikes me that Oberg is hoping against
hope that he will find a significant discrepancy between the
videotaped remarks and how Cernan was quoted. Or, failing that,
he is hoping that the remarks were not made during the public
news conference, but off-the-record. Then he can do a song and
dance about how the remarks lack independent corroboration, or
how the reporter misunderstood or misquoted Cernan.

I doubt he will discover the latter, because the LA Times
article twice states that Cernan's remarks came during the press
conference:

"Cernan told a news conference: 'I'm one of those guys who has
never seen a UFO (unidentified flying object). But I've been
asked, and I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else,
some other civilization. ....Cernan's statements came at the
last news conference of the Apollo 17 crew..."

The article also notes that Cernan's remarks came after those of
Harrison Schmitt: "Earlier, Schmitt said he though some of the
strange moon soil that he and Cernan picked up near the Crater
Shorty on the moon may be only 10 million years old."

If the remarks had been made privately, the article more likely
would have read "Cernan told this reporter" or "Cernan told the
Times" or "Cernan said after the press conference" or something
like that.

I'm sure, with his stated concern about "quality of evidence"
and not "finding ways to avoid looking at it," if he does find
the tape, that James Oberg will let the world know that the tape
corroborates the Time's quotes, if that's the case, just as
surely as he would write some smug article about how he had
disproven the quote, if that was also the case.


David Rudiak







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                      Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:48:05 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:45:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies


 >Fermi's Paradox III: Zookeepers, Alien Visitors, Or
 >Simple Life;
 >How Can We Explain Our Isolation?

 >By Seth Shostak
 >Astronomer, Project Phoenix
 >posted: 07:00 am ET
 >29 November 2001

 >We seem to have the Galaxy to ourselves. At least, that's the
 >obvious conclusion from the apparent lack of aliens in the
 >neighborhood.

The good folks at SETI can speak for themselves. Their
underlying assumption is that extraplanetary aliens will be be
hindered by the same monetary and technical challenges that keep
NASA from doing anything interesting (and they're supposed to be
_aliens_!)

Of course, SETI writes off the UFO phenomenon without even a
cursory look at the evidence, as UFOs would threaten the "not in
my backyard" mentality that governs the whole project to begin
with.  And if some UFOs are cited as evidence of some sort of
ETI, the SETI geniuses invariably ask "Why don't they land on
the White House Lawn?"

If _you_ were an alien, would revealing yourself to the natives
be the first thing on _your_ mind?  Would you even recognize
political hierarchies as loci of power?  (Most of the time I
don't--and I live here!)

SETI pundits are the Christian Fundamentalists of the
exobiological world.  Their worldview is intentionally limited,
and they seem bent on inflicting their interpretation of the
universe on everyone else regardless of its glaring absence of
logic.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
             http://mactonnies.com







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:29:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:47:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >>MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>Filer's Files #16
 >>4-24-99

 >>Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >>fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >>(Time magazine),

 >>The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >>entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >>Robert White.

<snip>

White's X-15 flight in July of 1962 reached an altitude of 96
kilometers, which technically at least, qualifies as a space
flight. See:

http://jpcolliat.free.fr/x15/A.html#white

There is probably still some atmospheric drag at that altitude,
but probably not enough to prevent ice particles from "hovering"
near the plane for some time rather than being swept away
quickly. I do wonder, however, where the water vapor that could
form such ice particles came from. If there's little air at an
altitude of 96 km, then there also isn't much water vapor in
that rarified air that could condense into ice particles. X-15
flights were very brief, so I would think waste water was not
being dumped overboard, eliminating another possible source of
ice. The ice would probably have to have formed while the plane
was at lower altitudes. But this plane was moving at hypersonic
speeds which generate enough friction at lower altitudes to
require the plane's skin to be constructed from heat resistant
alloys. How does atmospheric water condense into ice on such a
hot surface?







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework