UFO UpDates
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   Dec

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Dec 2001

  Dec 1:

   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [117]
   Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Deschamps - Michel M. Deschamps
   [66]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger - Don Ledger [117]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger - Don Ledger [83]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [37]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [98]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [39]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [41]

  Dec 2:

   Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - I - Kelly [188]
   Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? II - Kelly [184]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [38]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [30]
   Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? III - Kelly [149]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [26]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [26]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [30]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [22]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [35]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [32]
   THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 12-02-01 - Royce J. Myers III [26]
   Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy - James Oberg [148]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger - Don Ledger [53]
   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger - Don Ledger [56]
   Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Velez - John Velez [113]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [77]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [72]

  Dec 3:

   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [18]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [26]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - chris aubeck [27]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [36]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [54]
   Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO - David Rudiak [403]
   IUFOMRC? - Charles Chapman [19]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Alfred Lehmberg [43]
   Re: IUFOMRC? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [24]
   Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO - James Oberg [35]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Carpenter - Joel Carpenter [3]
   CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast - 12-05-01 - Paul Anderson [89]
   Re: IUFOMRC? - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [23]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 324 - Italian UFO - Edoardo Russo [186]
   More On The X-15 - Wendy Christensen [12]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg - Alfred Lehmberg [43]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Jones - Sean Jones [19]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez - John Velez [82]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Jeff Behnke [28]

  Dec 4:

   Re: More On The X-15 - Wright - Bruce Lanier Wright [17]
   Re: IUFOMRC? - Chapman - Charles Chapman [24]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Young - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO - Alfred Lehmberg [89]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [68]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [50]
   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Geiger - Bob Geiger [27]

  Dec 5:

   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [19]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO - David Rudiak [288]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.3.01 - Paul Anderson [57]
   Filer's Files #49 - 2001 - George A. Filer [472]
   Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [76]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [50]
   Secrecy News -- 12/05/01 - Steven Aftergood [106]
   Virtually Strange Network Site - UFO UpDates - Toronto [23]

  Dec 6:

   AIC Has A New Home! - John Velez [31]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [93]
   Re: Filer's Files #49 - 2001 - Oberg - James Oberg [23]
   Alaska Sighting JAL1628 - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Michael Gershtein Site Update - Paul Stonehill [32]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [65]
   Re: AIC Has A New Home! - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [14]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [33]
   Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez - John Velez [42]
   How to Investigate UFOs - Jan Aldrich [19]
   UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Jim Mortellaro [9]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Rudiak - David Rudiak [164]

  Dec 7:

   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [38]
   Cooper Photo Case [was: More On The X-15] - James Oberg [29]
   Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [118]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [78]
   California Reports For 11-21-99? - Brian Vike [10]
   Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [33]
   Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Velez - John Velez [27]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [31]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [44]
   The Real Story Of 'The Mothman Prophecies' - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [122]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [30]
   Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [53]
   Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Hall - Richard Hall [56]
   Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [17]
   Secrecy News -- 12/07/01 - Steven Aftergood [115]

  Dec 8:

   Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike - Brian Vike [74]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [105]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [32]
   Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Velez - John Velez [51]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [39]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [54]
   Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike - Brian Vike [35]

  Dec 9:

   Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... - Mac Tonnies [58]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [28]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [12]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [44]

  Dec 10:

   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... - - Jim Deardorff [25]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [32]
   FACETS Update On NASA FOIA Request - Mac Tonnies [37]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Christopher Kelly [50]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 333 - Edoardo Russo [103]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [75]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Robert Boreham [55]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.10.01 - Paul Anderson [57]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [37]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming - Lan Fleming [21]

  Dec 11:

   Abducted By Aliens? - Michael Woods [9]
   The Pyramids Of Maslow - Alfred Lehmberg [152]
   Area 51 Cammo Dudes On Strike - Glenn Campbell [26]
   Security Guards For 'Nowhere' Strike - UFO UpDates - Toronto [76]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [120]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [76]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [21]
   CI: 12-11-01 - Iranian Formation Artificial - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 334 - Edoardo Russo [106]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Chris Aubeck [40]
   New On The Magonia Website - John Rimmer [17]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Alfred Lehmberg [72]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [21]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Jeff Behnke [33]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [86]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - Velez - John Velez [73]
   Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [6]

  Dec 12:

   Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Chris Aubeck [63]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Edoardo Russo [110]
   Roswell Is Alive And Well - Gildas Bourdais [57]

  Dec 13:

   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Josh Goldstein [29]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Jeff Behnke [78]
   Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - James Oberg [22]
   Filer's Files #50 - 2001 - George A. Filer [480]
   Secrecy News -- 12/12/01 - Steven Aftergood [154]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [130]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... - - Joe McGonagle [147]
   Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Gates - Robert Gates [74]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Larry Hatch [23]
   Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch - Larry [53]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Russo - Edoardo Russo [94]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - - Stanton T. Friedman [45]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [29]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [22]
   JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - Lan Fleming [32]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [83]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [23]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [51]
   Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg - James Oberg [98]

  Dec 14:

   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates - Robert Gates [36]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Christopher Kelly [50]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [38]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Jim Mortellaro [53]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [21]
   Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [23]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [30]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg - James Oberg [99]
   Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - Fleming - Lan Fleming [11]
   Carl Sagan Center To Focus On Life In Universe - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [94]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [33]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [20]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [50]
   Re: ormation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [39]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [59]
   Secrecy News -- 12/14/01 - Steven Aftergood [130]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Larry Hatch [47]
   STS-75, UFO Magazine UK & JimO - James Oberg' [247]

  Dec 15:

   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [25]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [37]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [9]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [41]
   Brazilian TV Crew Tapes UFO - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [18]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [95]
   Re: Formation In Iran Resembles Face On Mars - GT McCoy [13]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [32]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Larry Hatch [30]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Larry Hatch [60]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Larry Hatch [53]
   Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [38]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Clark - Jerome Clark [75]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [54]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Velez - John Velez [79]
   The Real Story Of Swamp Gas? - Jim Mortellaro [49]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [38]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Lan Fleming [79]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [139]
   If You Read This, We'll Have To Kill You - UFO UpDates - Toronto [94]

  Dec 16:

   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Josh Goldstein [35]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates - Robert Gates [47]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [5]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Christopher Kelly
   [192]
   George O'Leary and Ufology - Kevin Randle [97]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [14]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Ledger - Don Ledger [118]
   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg - James Oberg [9]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg - James Oberg [11]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Alfred Lehmberg [44]
   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [98]
   UFO Roundup Update - John Hayes [21]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Felder - Bobbie Felder [40]

  Dec 17:

   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates - Robert Gates [20]
   Former Harvard Researcher Sanctioned - Robert Gates [82]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Velez - John Velez [58]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.17.01 - Paul Anderson [38]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337 - Edoardo Russo [99]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Alfred Lehmberg [85]
   Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337 - Hall - Richard Hall [21]

  Dec 18:

   Saucers Full Of Secrets - UFO UpDates - Toronto [740]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Joe McGonagle [40]
   Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Jim Mortellaro [61]
   Secrecy News -- 12/18/01 - Steven Aftergood [111]

  Dec 19:

   Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line - Jan Aldrich [190]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Firmage - 21st Century Physics Review - Kurt Jonach [170]
   Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch - Larry Hatch [64]
   Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - James Oberg [9]
   Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [72]
   Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [96]
   Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Ledger - Don Ledger [16]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Jim Mortellaro [85]
   Filer's Files #51 - 2001 - George A. Filer [421]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'- Kelly - Christopher Kelly
   [127]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Drew Williamson [140]

  Dec 20:

   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy - GT McCoy [121]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kelly - Christopher Kelly
   [53]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch - Larry Hatch [96]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Bruce Maccabee [78]

  Dec 21:

   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line - - Luis R. Gonzalez [12]
   Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Oberg - James Oberg [7]
   The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology - Alfred Lehmberg [194]
   Secrecy News -- 12/20/01 - Steven Aftergood [131]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates - Robert Gates
   [103]
   Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [76]
   UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Bill Chalker [43]
   Decoding E.T.: In Search of a Cosmic Rosetta Stone - Bill Hamilton
   [139]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Stan Friedman [94]
   Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line - - Jan Aldrich [22]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Jan Aldrich [60]
   The Science of Ball Lightning - UFO UpDates - Toronto [80]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy - GT McCoy [41]
   Re: The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology - - Jim Mortellaro [98]
   Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [23]
   Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Jan Aldrich [4]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Jim Mortellaro [48]

  Dec 22:

   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [27]
   Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Chalker - Bill Chalker [52]
   MTVI*update - Jan 2002 - Mac Tonnies [130]
   Merry Christmas - Leigh Blackmore [6]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hatch - Larry Hatch [54]
   Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch - Larry Hatch [60]
   Merry Christmas - A. J. Gevaerd [10]
   Merry Christmas - Roy J. Hale [9]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy - GT McCoy [58]
   Merry Christmas - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [6]
   Merry Christmas - Donnie Shevlin [7]
   Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [31]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Jan Aldrich [41]
   Merry Christmas - John Velez [8]
   The Origin Of The Christmas Tree - Joe McGonagle [35]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - - Jim Mortellaro [71]
   Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line - - John Velez [45]
   Merry Christmas - Minna Hyvonen [4]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Velez - John Velez [80]
   Merry Christmas - A True Perspective - Jim Mortellaro [55]

  Dec 23:

   Shermer's Last Law - UFO UpDates - Toronto [78]
   Happy... - Karl Pflock [5]
   Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Hatch - Larry Hatch [43]
   Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [33]
   Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [44]
   Windows XP Critical Internet Security Hole - Kurt Jonach [97]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd [35]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #001 - Alfred Lehmberg [156]
   Merry Christmas - GT McCoy [3]
   Fowler's Abductee Files - John Velez [25]
   Re: Happy... - Peterborough - Kelly [10]
   UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Beverly Trout [53]
   Re: Happy... - Don Ledger [15]
   A Christmas Rendlesham Story - Georgina Bruni [53]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [47]
   Re: Happy... - Zeiler - George Zeiler [9]

  Dec 24:

   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall - Richard Hall [46]
   Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story - David Bolton [13]
   Merry Universal Christmas! - Timothy D. Hagemeister [218]
   Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [85]
   Feliz Navidad - Alberto Diaz [2]
   Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons? - Mac Tonnies [29]
   Ho Ho Ho - Alfred Lehmberg [223]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.24.01 - Paul Anderson [45]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian - Jim Mortellaro [38]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [86]
   Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Jonach - Kurt Jonach [41]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian - Jim Deardorff [14]
   Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Merry Christmas - Murray Bott [71]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock - Kaarl Pflock [15]
   Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story - Hatch - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Ho Ho Ho - Christensen - Wendy Christensen [23]
   Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [79]

  Dec 25:

   UFOs Are A Humbug! - Jim Mortellaro [33]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [32]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Merry Christmas To All - Steven Kaeser [4]
   Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [47]
   Re: Merry Christmas To All - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   Christmas 2001 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [6]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Boreham - Robert Boreham [40]
   Re: UFOs Are A Humbug! - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [48]
   Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [68]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [48]
   Re: Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The - Jim Deardorff [38]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [31]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall - Richard Hall [27]

  Dec 26:

   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [53]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [70]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Rimmer - John Rimmer [17]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark - Jerome Clark [36]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [23]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock - Karl Pflock [50]
   Odd Native Story - Paul White Wolf [62]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #002 - Alfred Lehmberg [54]
   'Little Green Men' [was: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'] - David Rudiak [123]
   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [29]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: Odd Native Story - Oberg - James Oberg [23]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' [Was 'Roswell UFO - Dennis Stacy [63]

  Dec 27:

   Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [48]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [119]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [72]
   Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Connors - Wendy Connors [36]
   'The Ultimate Long Distance Call' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [87]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Randle - Kevin Randle [98]
   Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark - Jerome Clark [36]
   Filer'S Files #52 - 2001 - WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com [489]
   Re: Odd Native Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [71]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak - David Rudiak [86]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22]
   Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Randle - Kevin Randle [42]
   MJ-12's First Annual Report - UFO UpDates - Toronto [32]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak - David Rudiak [28]
   New Year Agenda - Richard Hall [57]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors - Wendy Connors [34]

  Dec 28:

   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [52]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates - Robert Gates [49]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [101]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [39]
   Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Bill Hamilton [57]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [69]
   SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods - Alfred Lehmberg [136]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors - Wendy Connors [60]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods - - Jim Mortellaro [155]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors - Wendy Connors [39]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Clark - Jerome Clark [22]

  Dec 29:

   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak - David Rudiak [162]
   Re: Insights Into T-2 Intelligence & Col. McCoy - Wendy Connors [53]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Pflock - Karl Pflock [49]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Hall - Richard Hall [7]
   Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Hale - Scott Hale [52]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #003 - Alfred Lehmberg [42]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Friedman - Stan Friedman [125]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #003 <addendum> - Alfred Lehmberg [37]
   Australian 'Drury UFO' Film? - Leigh Blackmore [11]
   Re: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [36]
   2002: Year Of The Mothman? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [22]
   Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Steven Kaeser [7]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark - Jerome Clark [48]
   Dead Aliens - GT McCoy [14]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [53]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 338 - Edoardo Russo [86]
   CCCRN News: 12-29-01 - Paul Anderson [68]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [26]
   Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Friedman - Stan Friedman [76]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [29]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [135]

  Dec 30:

   Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [40]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [27]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Young - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Haggard - Michael Haggard [20]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Woods - Michael Woods
   [38]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [43]
   Bottom Line On Walter Haut - Robert Gates [39]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Cameron - Cory Cameron [21]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Velez - John Velez [90]
   Re: Australian 'Drury UFO' Film? - Chalker - Bill Chalker [71]
   'Aliens Landed On My Farm' - John W. Auchettl [65]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - - Jim Mortellaro [80]

  Dec 31:

   Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [19]
   Uninvited White Things On My Lawn - Larry Hatch [10]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - McCoy - GT McCoy [81]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - - Serge Salvaille [45]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - - Alfred Lehmberg [207]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Hall - Richard Hall [199]
   Re: Aurora 1897 - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [54]
   Re: Bottom Line on Walter Haut - Connors - Wendy Connors [40]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark - Jerome Clark [31]
   Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - - Lan Fleming [31]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger - Don Ledger [19]
   The Measure Of Dick Hall - Ktperehwon@aol.com [147]
   Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hall - Richard Hall [28]
   Marcia Smith On Future of Space - sqquishy@altavista.com [44]
   Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [56]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Morris - Neil Morris [25]
   Re: Dead Aliens - Morris - Neil Morris [36]
   Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak - David Rudiak [136]
   Re: Bottom Line On Walter Haut - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [27]
   Roswell - Tourist Trap? [was: 2002: Year Of The - Stan Friedman [45]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [63]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: The Measure Of Dick Hall - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [35]
   Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg - James Oberg [26]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.31.01 - Paul Anderson [38]
   Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hale - Roy Hale [36]
   Positivite Thoughts, Please - Jim Mortellaro [10]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [46]
   Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger - Don Ledger [83]
   Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [64]
   Re: Positivite Thoughts, Please - Peterborough - Kelly Peterborough
   [15]
   'Dustbunny' Hunt? - Ingrid Hanson [4]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [41]
   Re: New Year Agenda - Rudiak - David Rudiak [103]
   Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg - James Oberg [8]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:54:24 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 02:51:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:58:00 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >>within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >>feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >>incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >>piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >>ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >>think it's getting a bit old. Open to any reasonable suggestions.

 >Don, I think you are subconsciously 'adding in' details to the
 >X-15 case, which as far as I remember it, actually DID occur in
 >space, not 'within the atmosphere'. Do you have any evidence
 >that this flight in question and this sighting in question was
 >in the atmosphere?

Oberg can't answer the question, so we instead we get another
round of rubbish and evasion from him. And this from someone who
is supposedly one of NASA's aerospace experts. Isn't he the one
supposed to have such details on his fingertips, such as how
high the X-15 flew?

Even if he doesn't remember the precise number, it is something
he could have _easily_ looked up, such as I did, in about 2
minutes time on the Internet. White's flight rose to a maximum
altitude of about 60 miles, which verified my ancient memory of
it. Again, Oberg mouths off without doing even minimal research,
just like he did with the Cernan quote, for which he claimed he
could find no citation.

Is 60 miles up considered "space?" No, and furthermore Oberg
knows it. If it were "space," then NASA would be conducting its
orbital space missions there -- save a helluva lot of energy,
for one thing, boosting objects into orbit.

Why doesn't the space shuttle or the international space station
fly only 60 miles up? Too much residual air friction, that's
why. In fact, the unshielded space station would start burning
up and dragged out of orbit in no time, just like meteors start
burning up at 60 to 70 miles altitude.

NASA doesn't even conduct lengthy orbital missions at 100 miles.
There's still too much residual air friction. Objects get
dragged out of orbit in a matter of weeks.

There is no sharp dividing line between the earth's atmosphere
and "space." Operationally for space flights, it depends on the
length of your mission. You can't maintain orbit at 60 miles for
even minutes, but if your mission is measured in days (such as
some of the early manned orbital flights or spy satellites) then
100 miles or so would do. And if you wanted your mission to last
years or decades (e.g., the ISS) then you better boost your
craft a lot higher than that (the ISS is over 200 miles up,
where atmospheric density is comparable to that of deep space).

At sea level, standard pressure is 760 mm of mercury. For every
10 miles increase in altitude, air pressure falls by a little
over one order of magnitude. At 60 miles, the pressure has
dropped nearly 10 million times.

While that might count as a near vacuum in a lab on earth,
that's not the way an object travelling thousands of miles per
hour experiences it. There is still significant frictional drag
and heating, even for a streamlined, metallic craft designed to
travel at hypersonic speeds like the X-15. 60 miles is still
considered to be within the earth's atmosphere and, even though
very rarefied, is not "space." Some people might call it the
"edge of space."

Enter Oberg's paper-thin, "ice flake" that supposedly broke off
a rear nozzle, then floated _forward_, and tumbled outside Bob
White's X-15 window. What chance does an ice flake have of
surviving in such an environment (60 miles up, travelling about
4000 mph) and doing the things that Oberg claims it could do?

About as much chance as the proverbial snowball in hell!

In the _real_ world, a thin, non-aerodynamic sheet of ice like
that would have been dragged backward and disintegrated almost
instantaneously.

 >I don't think NASA or other real space experts are 'getting
 >away' with the ice explanation, I think it's become this
 >generation's 'swamp gas', a story at which all manner of
 >ridicule and ignorant mockery is aimed, to discredit it as the
 >true, prosaic explanation of some striking visula cases which
 >seem to have gotten mainstream ufologist blessing.

Instead of dealing with the science and FACTS, Oberg has to
resort to ridicule. You see, it's not his explanation that's
ridiculous, it's those ufologists who don't have enough sense to
recognize a "true, prosaic explanation," even though its
scientifically impossible under the actual conditions of the
sighting (which Oberg won't even acknowledge).

Now mind you, we aren't talking about something 200 miles up (or
even a 100 miles) where there is essentially no significant
friction in the short term, where a sheet of ice would survive
for a signficant amount of time, and would indeed serve as a
possible and reasonable prosaic explanation.

No, we're talking about only 60 miles up, a zone where meteors
start to glow and burn up. There is significant air friction
here to rapidly moving objects and is technically and
operationally still within the earth's atmosphere. Hypersonic
ice crystals do not survive here for more than a fraction of a
second.

In Oberg's response, we find two Klassic staples of debunking
technique:

1. Any "explanation," no matter how stupid or impossible, is
preferable to none.

2. Even if a valid objection is raised to the aforementioned
"explanation" never admit error. Instead evade, stonewall,
ridicule, obfuscate, whatever, such as "Do you have any evidence
he wasn't in space" or "Oh, what do you expect of
Ufologists--they just never accept a true, prosaic explanation."


David "not even arguing this was a TRUFO -- just sick and tired
of debunking BS" Rudiak







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
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'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
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Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 1

                Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Deschamps

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:25:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 02:54:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Deschamps


 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:22:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles

 >Hi Everyone,

 >Permit me make some comments of my own regarding Nancy Talbot's
 >crop circle research.

 >There were some details in Nancy Talbot's description of the
 >beams she and Robbert v/d Broeke saw and mentioned on Errol's
 >UFO radio show last weekend that do not support her
 >interpretation that they were flashes of light (about a second
 >in duration) coming down from the sky to the ground. Since
 >Robbert (who was in the first floor) saw a 4 inch diameter beam
 >of light while Nancy (who was on the second floor) saw an 8 to
 >12 inch diameter beam of light, which she describes as a
 >"searchlight" in her written report, it must have been just
 >that. Many cars have 4 inch diameter headlights and so do some 1
 >million candlepower searchlights one can readily buy at most
 >hardware stores which produce such diverging beams of light. It
 >is not unusual for cows to become excited with some unfamilar
 >and unexpected activity at night, such as a stranger with a
 >powerful flashlight.

 >Since Nancy failed to prove to me that the short duration beams
 >of light came from above and not below (how could one even say
 >considering how fast light travels) and failed to establish a
 >connection to the bawling cows (have they been known to bawl at
 >other occasions too or just when the beams of light were
 >noticed?), she cannot claim to be a witness to the creation of a
 >crop circle. Considering the lights were on and her room well
 >lit, I am a little surprised that Nancy even noticed the beams
 >of light outside, even if her bedroom window had no curtains
 >(she didn't say).


<snip>

Errol and List,

I disagree wholeheartedly with Nick Balaskas' statement
regarding Nancy Talbot's eyewitness account of the formation of
a crop circle. Only someone who has never seen anything would
say such a thing. Flashlights?

Last time I checked, the beam given off by flashlights do not
have visible, solide-appearing straight-edge sides, nor are they
bright enough to light up the inside of a house or a room from
the outside. I've heard too many cases of the brilliance of such
beams of lights, cone-shaped or otherwise, emanating from UFOs
and how they "hurt" the eyes of the onlooker when looking
directly at it.

As far as the physical evidence is concerned, it is rock-solid!
(no pun intended). The right kind of scientific work is being
done. The results are conclusive. like it or not! Something
highly unusual is going on.

What we have here is a case where the observer is a person who
comfortably sat on the fence with caution...fell off....and has
been "forced" to re-evaluate her pre-conceptions about a
phenomena.

It's about time!
(applause)


Michel M. Deschamps
Been there... Seen things... and knows they ain't from here!






UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 1

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:28:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:53:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:06:53 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:13:51 -0600

 >>>Source: Rense.com

 >>>http://www.rense.com/ufo3/vivid.htm

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director
 >>>MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>>Filer's Files #16
 >>>4-24-99

 >>>Another great example is the X-15 'sighting' by Bob White which
 >>>fraudulently omits explanatory details from the cited source
 >>>(Time magazine),

 >>>The cited article is TIME magazine, July 27, 1962, pp. 12-13,
 >>>entitled 'SPACE: Inside the Sky'. It is a portrait of Major
 >>>Robert White.

 ><snip>

 >>>In last week's flight Bob White found a new
 >>>mystery for scientists to puzzle over: through the X-15's thick
 >>>left quartz window, he saw a strange sight: 'There ARE things
 >>>out there,' he radioed enthusiastically over his voice radio.
 >>>'There absolutely is.'

 >>>As White later described one 'thing': 'It looked like a piece of
 >>>paper the size of my hand tumbling slowly outside the plane. It
 >>>was greyish in color, and about 30 to 40 feet away. I haven't
 >>>any idea what it could be.'

 >>>Oberg continues: engineers postulated he was seeing ice flaking
 >>>off the engine nozzle, super-cooled by the liquid oxygen
 >>>propellant and broken loose by the firings of the X-15's
 >>>attitude control thrusters once it was in space. This
 >>>explanation came to satisfy everybody in the X-15 program,
 >>>especially in hindsight when nearby tumbling ice flakes became a
 >>>common sight on orbital missions.

 >>Hi James,

 >>Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >>within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >>feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >>incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >>piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >>ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >>think it's getting a bit old.

 >>Open to any reasonable suggestions.

 >>Don Ledger

 >Don,

 >I have exactly the same take on this as you. Thanks for putting
 >it out there for discussion. White reached an altitude of about
 >60 miles traveling about 4000 mph. I don't know at what point in
 >his trip he sighted the object. Let's assume it was at his
 >maximum altitude of 60 miles. There's not much atmosphere up
 >there, but it's also not a true vacuum. Meteorites made of rock
 >and metal, not to mention satellites, start burning up at this
 >altitude, but not this flat, fragile, completely non-aerodynamic
 >"ice flake." Yeah right!

 >Furthermore, besides this flat "ice flake" being impervious to
 >vaporization by frictional heat, it was also immune to
 >frictional drag. After breaking off the engine in the rear, it
 >somehow migrated forward to be seen tumbling outside of White's
 >side porthole.

 >It's truly amazing what "ice flakes" are capable of doing in the
 >imagination of a debunker. The physical properties of such "ice
 >flakes" are so remarkable, I'm surprised NASA doesn't make our
 >spacecraft out of them. Why use metals and ceramics when we
 >could use "ice flake" skins, thus eliminating frictional drag
 >and reentry problems, all with one simple, inexpensive material?

 >Let's try another approach. Debunkers when attacking UFO
 >sightings, love to point out that it isn't possible to reliably
 >judge distance, size, and speed without a point of reference.
 >(We'll ignore, for the moment, whether White could have judged
 >the distance stereoscopically.) Furthermore, at 60 miles,
 >atmospheric haze as a crude guide to distance would be
 >eliminated. (An effect we've all seen where distant objects
 >appear closer on a very clear day, such as after a rain.) This
 >compounds the difficulty in judging distance out in space.

 >This being said, was the object really 30 to 40 feet away and
 >the size of White's hand? What if it was a mile away? Then it
 >might be 50+ feet across. If 10 miles away, then 500+ feet
 >across, etc.

 >Now, instead of a close, small (inexplicable) curiousity no
 >bigger than White's hand, we would have a distant, big
 >curiousity, perhaps UFOish in nature.

 >I don't know what it was either and am likewise open to
 >_reasonable_ suggestions. But "ice flakes" strike me as
 >physically impossible under the given circumstances.


Hi David,

I have discounted [on little else other than common sense-and
those reasons offered] the ice flake explanation.

Your point about White's estimate of size being off due to lack
of visual references is also well taken. I'd thought of that
myself.

White's strained remark about that there are "things" out there
seems to be one of those guarded remarks made by someone who has
been told ahead of time to not use certain terms over an
un-protected radio source. I'm sure that when White saw this
'thing' that his knowledge of his own environment, aerodynamics
and possibly a fair grounding in physics, would have ruled out a
prosaic explanation of the event as I would if Julia Roberts
suddenly appeared naked along side me in my shower.


Best,

Don Ledger








UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 1

                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:48:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:08:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:54:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:58:00 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

<snip>

 >Enter Oberg's paper-thin, "ice flake" that supposedly broke off
 >a rear nozzle, then floated _forward_, and tumbled outside Bob
 >White's X-15 window. What chance does an ice flake have of
 >surviving in such an environment (60 miles up, travelling about
 >4000 mph) and doing the things that Oberg claims it could do?

 >About as much chance as the proverbial snowball in hell!

 >In the _real_ world, a thin, non-aerodynamic sheet of ice like
 >that would have been dragged backward and disintegrated almost
 >instantaneously.

 >>I don't think NASA or other real space experts are 'getting
 >>away' with the ice explanation, I think it's become this
 >>generation's 'swamp gas', a story at which all manner of
 >>ridicule and ignorant mockery is aimed, to discredit it as the
 >>true, prosaic explanation of some striking visula cases which
 >>seem to have gotten mainstream ufologist blessing.

 >Instead of dealing with the science and FACTS, Oberg has to
 >resort to ridicule. You see, it's not his explanation that's
 >ridiculous, it's those ufologists who don't have enough sense to
 >recognize a "true, prosaic explanation," even though its
 >scientifically impossible under the actual conditions of the
 >sighting (which Oberg won't even acknowledge).

 >Now mind you, we aren't talking about something 200 miles up (or
 >even a 100 miles) where there is essentially no significant
 >friction in the short term, where a sheet of ice would survive
 >for a signficant amount of time, and would indeed serve as a
 >possible and reasonable prosaic explanation.

 >No, we're talking about only 60 miles up, a zone where meteors
 >start to glow and burn up. There is significant air friction
 >here to rapidly moving objects and is technically and
 >operationally still within the earth's atmosphere. Hypersonic
 >ice crystals do not survive here for more than a fraction of a
 >second.

 >In Oberg's response, we find two Klassic staples of debunking
 >technique:

 >1. Any "explanation," no matter how stupid or impossible, is
 >preferable to none.

 >2. Even if a valid objection is raised to the aforementioned
 >"explanation" never admit error. Instead evade, stonewall,
 >ridicule, obfuscate, whatever, such as "Do you have any evidence
 >he wasn't in space" or "Oh, what do you expect of
 >Ufologists--they just never accept a true, prosaic explanation."


 >David "not even arguing this was a TRUFO -- just sick and tired
 >of debunking BS" Rudiak


Hi David,

The debunking remarks aside, your reasoning concerning how a
fragile little ice flake could migrate from rear to front in
such a hostile environment pretty much sez it.

James did admit that the ice flakes explanations trotted out by
NASA et al for any number of sightings was a red herring. A
remark likely akin to the "little green men" tongue in cheek
statement used to lessen the impact of the witnesses
sighting-astronauts, pilots and test pilots included.

You would have thought that more consideration would have been
given to what this was since it was in close proximity to a
vehicle motoring along at 4,000 mph. A sparrow impacting the
leading edge of a wing [or windshield] on a light aircraft
travelling at only 130 knots can lead to disaster. It always
amazes me how these reports get blown-off by the bevy of high
priced talent associated with each individual project. Or does
it?


Don Ledger







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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:18:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:46:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:58:00 -0600


 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001


 >>Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >>within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >>feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >>incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >>piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >>ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >>think it's getting a bit old. Open to any reasonable suggestions.


 >Don, I think you are subconsciously 'adding in' details to the
 >X-15 case, which as far as I remember it, actually DID occur in
 >space, not 'within the atmosphere'. Do you have any evidence
 >that this flight in question and this sighting in question was
 >in the atmosphere?

 >I don't think NASA or other real space experts are 'getting
 >away' with the ice explanation, I think it's become this
 >generation's 'swamp gas', a story at which all manner of
 >ridicule and ignorant mockery is aimed, to discredit it as the
 >true, prosaic explanation of some striking visula cases which
 >seem to have gotten mainstream ufologist blessing.

Didn't the X-15 fly at about 20 miles altitude? There is air
(and air resistance)... other wise the plane would have no lift.








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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:23:01 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:06:53 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:38 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

<snip>

 >>Hi James,

 >>Flakes of ice in the vacuum of space I can buy into but not
 >>within the atmosphere at supersonic speeds-and thirty to forty
 >>feet away tumbling in front of the pressure wave-which
 >>incidentally should be well aft of the X-15. That's one strong
 >>piece of ice flake. NASA et al seem to be getting away with the
 >>ice flake explanation for a lot of sightings and to be honest-I
 >>think it's getting a bit old.

 >>Open to any reasonable suggestions.

 >>Don Ledger

 >Don,

 >I have exactly the same take on this as you. Thanks for putting
 >it out there for discussion. White reached an altitude of about
 >60 miles traveling about 4000 mph. I don't know at what point in
 >his trip he sighted the object. Let's assume it was at his
 >maximum altitude of 60 miles. There's not much atmosphere up
 >there, but it's also not a true vacuum. Meteorites made of rock
 >and metal, not to mention satellites, start burning up at this
 >altitude, but not this flat, fragile, completely non-aerodynamic
 >"ice flake." Yeah right!

 >Furthermore, besides this flat "ice flake" being impervious to
 >vaporization by frictional heat, it was also immune to
 >frictional drag. After breaking off the engine in the rear, it
 >somehow migrated forward to be seen tumbling outside of White's
 >side porthole.

 >It's truly amazing what "ice flakes" are capable of doing in the
 >imagination of a debunker. The physical properties of such "ice
 >flakes" are so remarkable, I'm surprised NASA doesn't make our
 >spacecraft out of them. Why use metals and ceramics when we
 >could use "ice flake" skins, thus eliminating frictional drag
 >and reentry problems, all with one simple, inexpensive material?

 >Let's try another approach. Debunkers when attacking UFO
 >sightings, love to point out that it isn't possible to reliably
 >judge distance, size, and speed without a point of reference.
 >(We'll ignore, for the moment, whether White could have judged
 >the distance stereoscopically.) Furthermore, at 60 miles,
 >atmospheric haze as a crude guide to distance would be
 >eliminated. (An effect we've all seen where distant objects
 >appear closer on a very clear day, such as after a rain.) This
 >compounds the difficulty in judging distance out in space.

 >This being said, was the object really 30 to 40 feet away and
 >the size of White's hand? What if it was a mile away? Then it
 >might be 50+ feet across. If 10 miles away, then 500+ feet
 >across, etc.

 >Now, instead of a close, small (inexplicable) curiousity no
 >bigger than White's hand, we would have a distant, big
 >curiousity, perhaps UFOish in nature.

 >I don't know what it was either and am likewise open to
 >_reasonable_ suggestions. But "ice flakes" strike me as
 >physically impossible under the given circumstances.

Dear Don, List, Errol,

I am rather ashamed at all of you people for being so, so... I
dunno, shortsighted. Some time back (check the archives) I
exposed a little known fact about pelicans. There are "white"
pelicans and there are "black" pelicans. No need to be PC as
pelicans are not racially inclinated... inclined.

This time, after all the books, monographs and assorted
cypherins from the Canal Street UfoolOgical Study Group, none of
you have read a darned thing. None of you.

Let me inform right here and now, that the Gesundt scientists
have discovered a high flying, flat, white and "humongous" bird
in the upper bio atmospheric ion sphere place... waaaay up
there... This bird closely resembles the white pelican but it
also has some of the features of the black pelican. One of these
is, of course, very large... you know, lungs. So the thingies
may breathe up there. The other is this flat shape in order to
minimize their exposure. See, until Gesundt, no one knew they
existed.

These birds seek and destroy the bacterial bacterium which could
destroy forever, life on the earth. Some people out there think
civilization was destroyed by comets and asteroids and such.

Not!

Life was previously destroyed by bacterial bacterium in the high
atmospherial iono shell... sphere.

Our study group has decided to name this filium filum after our
most precious elixir, the one which destroys all the germs we
place in it in order to make it... Gripple. Dr. G. has named
these birds, "Gripple-Addled Pelicanus Gesundtus."

Now you have... the rest... of... the story.

G.






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                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:03:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:50:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:54:24 EST
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Rudiak

 >At sea level, standard pressure is 760 mm of mercury. For every
 >10 miles increase in altitude, air pressure falls by a little
 >over one order of magnitude. At 60 miles, the pressure has
 >dropped nearly 10 million times.

I think the pressure at 60 miles up may actually be about 10
times higher than that. One reference book I have, _The
Planetary System_, states that "the pressure decrease is
approximately by a factor of 10 for each 20 kilometers [or each
12.4 miles]." White's July '62 flight reached an altitude of 60
miles, so the air pressure was about 10^-4.8 times the air
pressure at sea level. He reached a speed of Mach 5.45, or
about 3500 miles per hour. You can make a rough estimate of the
equivalent wind speed at sea level from these figures.

The pressure that blowing air exerts on a stationary object is
the air density times the square of wind velocity. So the
pressure exerted by air 60 miles up against an object traveling
at 3500 mph is equivalent to the pressure exerted by a wind
blowing at 14 miles per hour at sea level air pressure . That
seems too high to allow a flake of ice to appear to hover rather
than being swept away, but a more substantial chunk of ice still
might hover near the aircraft for a substantial period of time.
But I still don't see where enough water would come from to form
a flake, let alone a chunk of ice. It does seem that the
standard ice particle explanation used to explain away all
alleged space shuttle UFOs is being forced to fit a very
different situation.







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   Dec > Dec 1

                     Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:51:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Deardorff


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:21 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >... But religion assumes a
 >transcendent being in control. What if humanity were to suddenly
 >come face to face with material biological beings who seem to be
 >in control, or at least have much greater capa bility than we?
 >Think about it.

Hello Bruce,

This and all your foregoing are quite true and relevant.
However:

 >Do YOU want to announce the proof of UFO reality to the world...
 >and be responsible for the consequences? ...

You yourself have announced "to the world" the proof of UFO
reality many times over, in your talks, in your website, on this
list, in _UFOs Are Real...Here's the Proof_ and elsewhere. Now's
not the time to stop! You needn't worry about any abrupt
immediate consequences, since the self-cover is still so strong
that no one individual can breach it. Yet, every individual's
sincere efforts at breaching it helps in some small measure,
some more than others, as it does have a positive effect in
getting out the truth.

But those parts of the world that aren't interested in listening
to the evidence and truth don't have to do so, so no one person
can be responsible for the consequences of when governments
themselves, especially that of the USA, eventually find they
have to disclose the truth. By that time, all you competent
ufologists in the future, now and in the past half century, will
have done your jobs so that the societal consequences will not
be as severe as otherwise.


Jim Deardorff







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   Dec > Dec 2

                 Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - I

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:59:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:07:46 -0500
Subject: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - I

Source: http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/Giordano%20Bruno.htm

Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?

by Joan d'Arc

Filippo Bruno was born in Nola Italy in 1548. When he was 13
years old he entered school at the Monastery of Saint Domenico.
Taking the name Giordano, he became a Dominican priest in 1565,
but was forced to run away 11 years later due to his shockingly
inappropriate ideas. Author of countless obscure writings
originally written in Italian or Latin, the Theosophists claim
Giordano Bruno as their own mystic and martyr. The Rosicrucians
credit Bruno with the revival of their Egyptian-based religion.
In Bruno are seen the first hints of Freemasonry in England,
with its Egyptian mysteries, its overt philanthropy-its "good
works." Bruno was a pioneer in the study of what is today called
Semantics, and he is a character referred to as "The Nolan" in
James Joyce's complex tale, Finnegans Wake.

Modern environmentalists claim Bruno as the forerunner of the
Gaian environmental movement. Gaia is the ancient name for the
Earth, a being which is considered by "pagan" religions to be
alive with universal intelligence. Bruno was a Pantheist. He
believed all of nature to be alive with divine spirit,
intelligence and consciousness. To Bruno, Nature is God, and God
is Nature.

Bruno's works revived the basic heliocentrism of early Greek
philosophers, which seems to have begun with Aristarchus of
Samos in approximately 260 BC. Even earlier, Pythagorus had
taught in 580 B.C. that the earth was a sphere. Ptolemy too had
taught that the earth was a sphere, but the earth was at the
center of Ptolemy's universe. Aristotle's earth-centered
cosmology became the accepted doctrine for hundreds of years in
a tyranny of thought brutally enforced by the Catholic Church.

According to the Catholic Church, heliocentrism threatened the
credibility of the Holy Scripture, which was believed to be the
supreme authority in all matters, including science. There were
no "novel interpretations of the Bible" allowed. The first
sentence of the earth-centered Genesis tale tells us that, "In
the beginning, God created the earth and the heavens." According
to the Holy Book, He put the earth there first and placed the
other bodies in the skies for the benefit of mankind.

Bruno the Time Traveler

Bruno knitted into the fabric of his cosmic picture various
systems of ancient knowledge. He merged into his system the
pantheistic doctrines of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus
and Persians and the essentially animistic physics of the 21st
Century. Some have even considered Bruno a time traveler, since
his ideas touched those of the ancient past as well as the
distant future. For instance, Bruno foretold the "Many Worlds
Theory" of quantum mechanics; the theory that the universe
splits into many possible worlds as events unfold in time. He
once reasoned as follows: "I can imagine an infinite number of
worlds like the earth, with a Garden of Eden on each one. In all
these Gardens of Eden, half the Adams and Eves will not eat the
fruit of knowledge, but half will. But half of infinity is
infinity, so an infinite number of worlds will fall from grace
and there will be an infinite number of crucifixions. Therefore,
either there is one unique Jesus who goes from one world to
another, or there are an infinite number of Jesuses. Since a
single Jesus visiting an infinite number of earths one at a time
would take an infinite amount of time, there must be an infinite
number of Jesuses. Therefore, God must create an infinite number
of Christs."

Needless to say, this idea did not go over too big with Church
authorities when they got wind of it. Nonetheless, Bruno
continued. In an extraordinary tide of information revelation,
Bruno pulled the past and the future together as though it were
the folds of an infinite curtain. As a physics web site
explains, "The physical world of things is embedded in the
infinite, embedded in a space filled with all the other possible
worlds .... We see a few of those other worlds in the
probability waves of quantum mechanics." Bruno intuited the
conditions of such a world as "the coincidence in the One of
both the possible and the real."

As both Quantum Theory and Einstein's Relativity now suggests,
we live in a Many Worlds Universe, where all the moments of the
past, the present, and future exist simultaneously as part of a
single permanent existence. Oddly, Bruno the time traveler had
this to say about God and Time: "The single thought, which is
Thy Word, embraces all and each in itself, Thy single word
cannot be manifold, opposite, changeable ... In the eternity in
which Thou thinkest, coincides all the after another of time,
with the now of eternity. There is, therefore, no past nor
future where future and past coincide with the present."
(McIntyre)

Giordano Bruno also prefigured the idea of the atom, and smaller
still, a unit which was divisible by nothing else, a unit of
thought, when he wrote: "an atom, beyond which we cannot in fact
go, although to thought it may be still further divisible; so
there is in every figure, in every kind of thing, a definite
number of atoms." (McIntyre) Today quantum physicists suggest
that thought, the act of human attention, is the force that
gives birth to possibilities in the world of matter. Scientist
Harold McGowan proposed the "thoughtron" to be an atom tinier
than any other and to be contained in all things. In his book
The Thoughtron Theory of Life and Matter, McGowan proposed that
the thoughtron, as the smallest elementary particle, would be
the mental bridge between the thought world and formal reality.
(McGowan)

Bruno looked toward mathematics and geometry for the true method
of natural science, writing that "number is the natural and
fruitful principle of the understanding's activity; ... number
is the unfolding of understanding." (McIntyre) Yet, Bruno also
could not "conceive of a philosophy of nature, of number, of
geometry, of a diagram, without infusing into these divine
meanings." His philosophy was never divorced from divinity.
Although he refused dogmatic teachings and always pushed the
envelope, he was truly a holy man.

A Historical Perspective

To put his life in historical perspective, in 1543, when
Giordano Bruno was five years old, Nicholas Copernicus published
his mathematical treatise (De Revolutionibus) which vindicated
the Greek Pythagorus, who at around 580 B.C. argued that the
earth was a sphere. Copernicus re-established the ancient Greek
heliocentrism of Aristarchus of Samos by proving mathematically
that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Yet, Bruno accused
Copernicus of not fully understanding the meaning of his
discovery; of being "only a mathematician." Bruno's divine
intuition of the infinity of worlds picked up where Copernicus
left off.

Bruno rejected the limits of the Copernican system, which
posited a finite universe limited by a fixed sphere of stars
just beyond the solar system. He argued that the sun was not
actually the center of the universe, saying that if you were
able to observe the sun from any of the other stars it would
simply look like any other star. Bruno even speculated that the
other worlds would be inhabited.

In 1588, Galileo Galilei began to teach Copernican theory at the
University of Pisa. Much later, in 1609, Galileo discovered the
moons of Jupiter via a hand-made telescope. With the invention
of the telescope by a Dutchman, Copernican theory ceased to be
"esoteric." Various visual proofs were discovered.

Still, Galileo was brought to Rome and interrogated by the
Inquisition in 1615. He was forced to declare the Copernican
system as scientifically false, and he was forced to promise to
stop teaching it. Galileo ignored his promise, and returned to
Florence and continued with his work, publishing sixteen years
later, in 1632, his Dialogues on Great World Systems. He was
called back to Rome by the Inquisition in 1633, and again forced
to recant heliocentrism under threat of torture, this time being
put under house arrest until his death in 1642. Galileo invited
the Inquisitors to look through his telescope and see for
themselves the moons of Jupiter which revolved around it, but
they refused to do so. Heliocentrism was officially condemned
over 20 years later, in 1664, when Pope Alexander VII banned all
books which affirmed the motion of the earth.

Yet, almost a hundred years before this, there was Giordano
Bruno. Bruno spoke in France and Germany and taught
heliocentrism at Oxford, England, well before the 16th Century.
Bruno and Galileo have much in common. Both were Italians, both
espoused heliocentrism in the 1580s, although Bruno was teaching
it a few years earlier, and both were an annoyance to the
Inquisition authorities. However, Galileo does not mention Bruno
because it was dangerous to even speak of such a heretic.

Bruno was not a mathematician, and he was not an astronomer. He
was a member of the Dominican clergy and he had the audacity to
take his theories to the infinite fringes of thought. In 1584,
at the age of 36, Bruno spoke before a group in London. He told
them that space was filled with an infinite number of solar
systems and that each had a central sun around which planets
revolved. He taught that the planets shone by reflected light,
but the suns were self-luminous bodies. He even spoke of
sun-spots, which he had learned from Nicolas de Cusa, and the
forward motion of our own solar system in space. In Bruno's
philosophy, nothing stood still-everything was in motion, from
the smallest atom to the largest star system.

Remarkably, Bruno was espousing these beliefs at a time when the
flat motionless earth was the sole concern of a personal God and
Father, who certainly had no other children anywhere else. The
Father gave to His children the gift of the earth, the Garden of
Eden, around which he placed for their sole pleasure the Sun,
the moon and stars. These points of light were far from being
understood by Europeans to be universes of their own-solar
systems perhaps inhabited by other intelligent beings like
ourselves. Bruno's universe was infinite and included an
indefinite number of worlds each consisting of a sun and several
planets. In Bruno's philosophy, the earth was a small
insignificant body in an infinite universe. Coming from this
point of view, there was nothing special about this "special
creation."

Continued...







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   Dec > Dec 2

                 Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? II

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 19:08:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:09:46 -0500
Subject: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? II


This radical view was a heretical idea; yet Bruno shouted it,
sometimes sitting near the door of the meeting hall so he could
run from the crowd if he had to. Bruno made a public appearance
in May of 1586 in the Library of the Abbey of Saint Victor in
Paris. Bruno sat his assistant, Jean Hennequin, in the "great
chair," while Bruno himself sat in a little chair near the door
to the garden. Bruno apparently took this precaution in case he
needed to leave hastily. And as it turned out, he did. Bruno's
assistant provided the following introduction to the lecture:

"We have been imprisoned in a dark dungeon, whence only
distantly could we see the far off stars. But now we are
released. We know that there is one heaven, a vast ethereal
region in which move those flaming bodies which announce to us
the glory and majesty of God. This moves us to contemplate the
infinite cause of the infinite effect; we see that the divinity
is not far distant, but is within us, for its centre is
everywhere, as close to dwellers in other worlds as it is to us.
Hence we should follow not foolish authorities but the regulated
sense and the illuminated intellect." (Yates) When Bruno's
speech was over, he called for anyone in the audience to defend
Aristotle. When no one did, he left and was followed by several
students. The students grabbed him and demanded he retract his
insults to Aristotle. Bruno escaped on the condition that he
would show up and do so the next day-but he left town and never
returned.

Bruno spoke of both the diversity of life and the sameness of
life. He referred to diversity and difference as aspects of one
and the same substance: "the coincidence of contraries." He
noted, "That there are more worlds than one is due to the
presence everywhere throughout space of the same principle of
life, which everywhere has the same effect." (McIntyre)

In his dialogue, The Ash Wednesday Supper, Bruno praised
Copernican theory, yet went far beyond Copernicus himself in his
intuition of the infinity of the universe. He identified the
matter in the earth with the matter of the planets and stars,
and wrote of the possibility that "such living beings inhabit
them as inhabit the earth"; he wrote that the earth and stars
themselves are "living organisms"; he wrote that "there are not
seven planets or wandering stars only, but innumerable such, for
every world, whether of the sun-type or of the earth-type, is in
motion, its motion proceeding from the spirit within it."
(McIntyre)

In his work, Cause, Principle, and Unity, written in 1584, Bruno
wrote of "the spirituality of all causation; the eternity of
matter; its divinity as the potentiality of all life; its
realization in the universe as a "formed" thing; the infinite
whole and the innumerable parts, as different aspects of the
same: ... diversity and difference as aspects of one and the
same substance ..." (McIntyre) Bruno's dialogues were said by
many of his peers to be "worthy of Plato." In this work, Bruno
stated the following:

"This entire globe, this star, not being subject to
death-dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in
Nature-from time to time renews itself by changing and altering
all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle
taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a
body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is
incessant relative change in position throughout the universe,
and the observer is always at the center of things." As he
rightly argued, the sun was not the center of the whole shebang,
and wasn't even the only sun, but was simply the center of one
particular part of the world. How did Bruno know this? Intuition
of infinity ... He imagined it!

In 1584, Bruno wrote The Infinite Universe and its Worlds, which
"contained a masterly array of reasons, physical and
metaphysical, for the belief that the universe is infinite, and
is full of innumerable worlds of living creatures." (McIntyre)
Bruno wrote: "Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve
around these suns .... Living beings inhabit these worlds." The
basic theme of Bruno's Spaccio, also written in the year 1584,
is "the glorification of the magical religion of the Egyptians."
Bruno believed their worship was really the worship of "God in
things." Bruno wrote in Spaccio, "for diverse living things
represent divine spirits and powers, which, beyond the absolute
being which they have, obtain a being communicated to all things
according to their capacity and measure. Whence God as a whole
is in all things."

Bruno the UFOlogist?

Taken as a whole, Bruno's various sentiments sound uncannily
similar to a quote in the August 2001 issue of New Age magazine
attributed to Harvard psychiatrist/UFOlogist John Mack that, "We
are spiritual beings connected with other life forms and the
cosmos in a profound way, and the cosmos itself contains a
numinous intelligence. It's not just dead matter and energy."

Mack has also stated: "With the help of the abduction phenomenon
we will have discovered a new picture of the universe in which
psyche and world manifest and evolve together according to
principles we have not yet fathomed." He has referred to the
alien abduction phenomenon as "a kind of spiritual outreach
program from the cosmos for the spiritually impaired."

Mack suggests: "We need to transcend the separateness that
disconnects us from nature. If we could transcend this division,
we might then explore, enjoy, and travel ecstatically, lovingly,
materially and non-materially, among the unique particularities
of our own being, our own natures within the cosmos,
experiencing at the same time an essential unity and sacredness
of creation." (http://www.peer-mack.org/) We might consider that
this division-the excision or removal of God from Nature, as a
power working from some lofty plain above Nature-is perhaps the
cause of our spiritual impairment. We can look to the many
blasphemies of Giordano Bruno to reunite our lost souls with the
sacredness of all creation.

Bruno's sentiments also reverberate in the words of UFO-tracker
Steven M. Greer, who, in his book Extraterrestrial Contact,
suggests that our "concepts of God, creation, life and religious
meaning will evolve in the direction of accommodating the
existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, and
this will cause an increasing 'universalization' of God."

We must realize that this universalization of God is just what
turned the attention of the Roman Inquisition toward Giordano
Bruno's heretical ideas four hundred years ago. Greer looks to a
future where we will see God as "an infinite Creator whose glory
is not confined to the Earth." This is an idea whose time has
still not yet come four hundred years after the first
Universalist loudly proclaimed that there might be intelligent
life out there in other worlds similar to our own. Greer's
universalism is evident when he writes, "Regardless of planet,
star system or galaxy of origin, and no matter how diverse, ETs
are essentially intelligent, conscious, sentient beings. We are,
essentially, one. On this basis, we may speak of one people
inhabiting one universe." Greer explains, "the simple thread of
conscious intelligence which runs through all peoples elegantly
weaves our unity. This essential unity is not subject to the
trials of diversity, for it is pure, immutable and fundamental
to the existence of intelligent life itself." Or, in Giordano
Bruno's words, "diversity and difference are aspects of one and
the same substance... the same principle of life." That
substance or principle is Universal Consciousness, the First
Cause, or God. The problem is we are so used to thinking of God
as an old guy with a beard that we cannot fathom this idea of
universal consciousness.

The development of this attitude of "universality based in
consciousness," Greer argues, is necessary for peace and unity
to develop among peoples of the earth, and to assure peaceful
interactions between earth humans and other intelligent life in
the universe. The endless diversity which our astounding
universe may hold must be met with what Greer calls "the
calmness of universal consciousness." Now, in the 21st Century,
we stand poised to take that same message one step further and
over the great divide. If Greer is right, we are ready to meet
our cousins, the once imaginary cousins of Giordano Bruno.

Whether we like it or not, the good old earth is heading toward
a paradigm shift. Gaia has spoken her mind. She has seen enough
bloodshed, enough toxic destruction, enough reckless waste of
resources that should have been bountiful enough for all her
children. Strangely, the message from Mother Earth is coming in
from a mysterious source-so-called ETs-distant cousins we never
knew we had. There is an undeniable power behind this paradigm
shift that may emanate from beyond earth, and it's coming
whether we like it or not.

We must realize that this universality is still a radical idea,
almost as radical an idea as it was in Bruno's time. Greer's
universality really shines through in his statement that, "We
must look to our inner reality to find our oneness with other
intelligent life in the universe ... for there is one universe
inhabited by one people, and we are they." (Extraterrestrial
Contact, 19)]

Last time I spoke here, I quoted Vatican official, Monsignor
Corrado Balducci. As Balducci stated in an interview with
Zecharia Sitchin:

"That life may exist on other planets is certainly possible...
The Bible does not rule out that possibility. On the basis of
scripture and on the basis of our knowledge of God's
omnipotence, His wisdom being limitless, we must affirm that
life on other planets is possible ... credible and even
probable."

It's interesting to see that a Vatican spokesman has publicly
made such a radical statement. We must wonder how and why this
has come about. Novel interpretations of the Bible, once
considered punishable by torture on the rack, are now coming at
us from all directions, including the Vatican. The Vatican has
come close to apologizing for Galileo's hardships, but not
Bruno's. It is unlikely that the Vatican will be quoting from
Giordano Bruno's books anytime soon.

Continued, believe it or not....







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:07:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:11:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:06:53 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >It's truly amazing what "ice flakes" are capable of doing in
 >the imagination of a debunker. The physical properties of such
 >"ice flakes" are so remarkable, I'm surprised NASA doesn't make
 >our spacecraft out of them. Why use metals and ceramics when we
 >could use "ice flake" skins, thus eliminating frictional drag
 >and reentry problems, all with one simple, inexpensive material?

David, I can only suggest you spend more time reading
reality-based books and articles about real aerodynamics and
space operations, and not allow yourself to be so overwhelmed by
reality-free imaginations.

Meteors occur at these altitudes because of the tremendous
speeds of the objects entering the atmosphere, usually in the
10-20 miles per second range.

The X-15 at is high point is moving at most only a few hundred
feet per second.

You may therefore want to revise the comments you made in honest
ignorance.

I can see why the true explanations of many of these space
'sightings' is impossible for you to believe, if you have such
egregiously erroneous misconceptions of basic principles of
space flight.

The fix for this is for you to learn more about the subject, not
make fun of ideas you can't seem to understand.

We're all rooting you on. Give it a try.


jimO








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                    Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:10:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:14:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:58:52 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >First, it is abundantly obvious that you didn't try all that
 >hard to find the citation on Cernan's quote. Whatever your
 >opinion of Good's book, it is heavily referenced, and has a full
 >chapter on NASA with all those astronaut quotes you obviously
 >love to debunk. If somebody had asked me about the Cernan quote
 >and a citation for it, Good's book would have been the first one
 >I would have grabbed to see if both were in there.

My experience with Good's published assertions regarding
astronaut 'sightings of UFOs' is that they are so unreliable as
to be worthless. And I have done the research to demonstrate
that. So no, I don't consider -- as you suggest -- that I would
ever consider anything in Good's book on this theme to be a
final, reliable answer.

The good answer came from readers here who provided the date of
the article and the source. The final answer will come from
reviewing the tape of the press conference in question, and
checking with Cernan -- both now in work.







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                 Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? III

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 19:14:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:16:13 -0500
Subject: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? III


Scientific discoveries have always caused trouble for dogmatic
Church teachings. In Bruno's time, astronomy was a threat to the
teachings of the Church. Two hundred years later, geology
challenged the Holy Book's credibility, and it was maintained by
Christians that Satan, the Father of all Lies, must have placed
fossils there to deceive mankind. A hundred years ago,
evolutionary biology threatened the Genesis account of special
creation. Now, many fundamentalist Christians believe that UFO's
in the skies are piloted by Satan's "fallen angels."

Many Christians still cannot concede that there could be human
beings stationed anywhere else in God's creation. One Christian
author writing recently in Paranoia summed up the crux of this
earth-centered theological dilemma when she wrote, "If doubt can
be cast on the first sentence in the first chapter of the first
book in the Bible, then the whole book is up for grabs."
(Wallace, PARANOIA, Issue 27) It's interesting that we still
haven't gotten over that hump.

We should not fail to appreciate that the belief in life on
other planets was once dangerously heretical, a belief that
present day UFOlogists assume as a bottom line. Not that Harvard
University didn't try to excommunicate John Mack, the heretic.
They certainly tried. But baby steps are still steps and slow
progress is still progress. We may even think of Giordano Bruno,
therefore, as the first speculative UFOlogist.

Reincarnation

Another idea which Bruno wrote about continues to be frowned
upon by the Western world and mainstream religions: that is, the
concept of the reincarnation of the soul through various life
cycles.

Giordano Bruno brought back from ages past the Pythagorian and
Platonic doctrines of the Law of Karma and the Law of
Reincarnation: that every act brings its appropriate reward or
punishment in another life, and that each individual determines
for itself by its actions its transition into another body. In
his Spaccio de la Bestia Trionfante, published in 1584, Bruno
described the condition of a soul who had misused its
opportunities on Earth, saying that such a soul would be "...
relegated back to another body, and should not expect to be
entrusted with the administration of a better dwelling if it had
conducted itself badly in the conduct of a previous one." (Great
Theosophists) Although it seems a fate worse even than the
Christian version of Hell-that we should continually need to
repeat various incarnations until we get it right-the idea was
heretical because in essence Bruno was charging that there was
no Hell! Bruno's belief was that there was a spark of the divine
in human beings and that we are in charge of our own fate.
Bruno's ideas were nothing short of pantheistic: that "the
Infinite has nothing which is external to Itself," that all
living matter contains a spark of the divine.

The Art of Memory

Toward the end of Bruno's life, he was hired by an Italian named
Mocenigo to teach him certain skills of mnemonics (memory), an
art for which Bruno was well known having written several books
on the subject, including The Art of Memory, The Shadows of
Ideas, and Incantations of Circe. Bruno had earlier fled Italy
so that he could be as far away from the Inquisition authorities
as possible, publishing his books while in England, France and
Germany. But he missed his homeland, and when he was invited
back to Italy by this man, he walked right into the trap. As one
scholar writes, "People like Giordano Bruno are immunized from a
sense of danger by their sense of mission, and a state of
euphoria bordering on insanity." (Yates)

Bruno's Art of Memory was a "magical psychology." Bruno's
complex magical memory system consisted of "wheels" on which
groups of letters, symbols and images corresponded to the
physical contents of the terrestrial world, representing the
whole sum of human knowledge accumulated through the centuries.
It is presumed by scholars who have studied these diagrams that
the person who committed this system to memory "rose above time
and reflected the whole universe of nature and of man in his
mind."

Bruno's memory wheel was a "Hermetic secret," since it was the
"gnostic reflection of the universe in the mind." Bruno believed
that when, in the mind, one conformed symbols and images to
celestial forms, which corresponded to the figures of the
zodiac, and when one held these images all at once in the mind,
one would arrive from "the confused polarity of things at the
underlying unity." In essence, one would become "like God."

Mocenigo got the idea that Bruno could teach him something more,
something along the lines of sorcery. When Bruno denied knowing
anything about such things, Mocenigo became angry about the
money he had paid Bruno and turned him in to the Venetian
tribunal.

Mocenigo accused Bruno before the tribunal of teaching the
existence of a boundless universe filled with a countless number
of solar systems. He accused Bruno of saying the Earth was not
the center of the universe, but rather a planet which revolved
around the Sun. Bruno was also accused of: "teaching the
doctrine of Reincarnation; of denying the actual
transubstantiation of bread into the flesh of Christ; of
refusing to accept the three persons of the Trinity; and of
rejecting the virgin birth of Christ." (Great Theosophists)

Bruno seems to have explained himself pretty well to the state
authorities of Venice, who kept him for many months and were not
at first keen on turning him over to the Inquisition body in
Rome. Bruno's argument seems to be that his ideas were based in
philosophical discourse and therefore should be protected; he
argued that he was at all times speaking as a philosopher and
not as a priest. But eventually the counsel at Venice, wishing
to keep the peace with the Church, turned The Nolan over to
them. Thus began Giordano's 7-year prison ordeal at the hands of
the Roman Inquisition.

The exact charges that were brought against Bruno by the
Catholic Church authorities are unknown, since it is claimed
that the records have been lost. Nor is it known why he was kept
so long in their prison: It was the usual circumstance to house
and harass a heretic for no longer than a year, most of the time
discarding the poor victim's remains after just a few horrific
months. But for some unknown reason, Giordano Bruno was tortured
and interrogated for seven long years. Was it for his animistic
belief that the spirit world invaded all of nature? Was it for
his insistence on a reform of Catholicism to the "natural
religion" of the Egyptians? Was it for his belief in the
heretical concept of reincarnation? Was it for his unshakable
belief in the divinity of the human spirit? Was it for their
belief that he was a magician? A Catholic web site called New
Advent makes the following claim:

"Bruno was not condemned for his defense of the Copernican
system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of
inhabited worlds, but for his theological errors, among which
were the following: that Christ was not God but merely an
unusually skilful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of
the world, that the Devil will be saved."

The Catholic web site describes Bruno's system of thought as "an
incoherent materialistic pantheism."

Bruno refused to retract his beliefs. On February 17, 1600,
Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in the center of Rome,
with a nail driven through his tongue-the customary treatment of
all unrepentant heretics so they could not continue to insult
the sensitive ears of the Inquisition. Giordano Bruno stood for
"the Dignity of Man"; of "liberty, tolerance, the right to stand
up in any country and say what he thought, disregarding all
ideological barriers." (Yates) Bruno dared to imagine many
potential brave new worlds-like the one where we are now free to
look out at the stars and wonder out loud if there is any life
upon them. Where I can stand here and say what I have said this
evening, and not have to stand over there, near the door, ready
to make a run for it.=B7

This talk was delivered before MUFON Rhode Island on
November 16, 2001.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:14:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:17:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg



 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:29:44 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >I do wonder, however, where the water vapor that could form
 >such ice particles came from.

Reasonable question, with all alternatives properly catalogued
and discussed.

There's another possibility, not mentioned.

Both around the cryo tanks and the super-cold propellant lines,
ice always formed while the X-15 was on the carrier plane.
Atmospheric condensation at those altitudes was common.

Once out of the atmosphere, different kinds of jets were fired
to point the X-15. They also could have effects on things tucked
away in the aft end, for example.

Check out some books on the X-15 project to see what they say
about this phenomenon.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:18:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:20:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:54:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >What chance does an ice flake have of surviving in such an
 >environment (60 miles up, travelling about 4000 mph) and doing
 >the things that Oberg claims it could do? About as much chance
 >as the proverbial snowball in hell! In the _real_ world, a thin,
 >non-aerodynamic sheet of ice like that would have been dragged
 >backward and disintegrated almost instantaneously.


Thanks for identifying your precise misconception, which should
allow us to see how your conclusions are unsupported by reality.

The X-15 wasn't travelling 6000 mph at 60 miles up. At most, it
was only a few hundred mph.

Once you are able to verify this, you will be smarter, and you
will be able to say 'Oops, never mind', and we can discuss other
issues.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:23:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:21:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:48:22 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >James did admit that the ice flakes explanations trotted out by
 >NASA et al for any number of sightings was a red herring.

I apologize for being unclear, since I never meant to say any
such thing.

The ice or 'space debris' explanation, as far as I've been able
to tell, is a legitimate and defendable prosaic explanation for
these 'famous' UFO reports in space.

Another misconception you have to overcome is this notion of
something drifting to the front of the X-15.

Actually, once exo-atmospheric, the X-15 itself points itself in
any random direction using wing-mounted jets. It can do this to
point instruments, or for sightseeing, and ultimately to line
itself up for re-entry.

During this time, even something flaking off its back end can
easily wind up in front of the cockpit window as the spacecraft
rotates.


JimO








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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:26:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:23:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:03:02 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The pressure that blowing air exerts on a stationary object is
 >the air density times the square of wind velocity. So the
 >pressure exerted by air 60 miles up against an object traveling
 >at 3500 mph is equivalent to the pressure exerted by a wind
 >blowing at 14 miles per hour at sea level air pressure

Good calculations, but wrong assumptions about initial
conditions.

When you finally figure out what your mistake is, you'll slap
yourself on the forehead and groan with embarrassment.







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                      Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:25:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies


 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:21 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Actually the "UFO hypothesis" could be combined with the zoo
 >hypothesis to explain why they are "above our heads" while not
 >overtly communicating.

I like Jacques Vallee's idea that UFOs could be part of some
long-term psychosocial control system. Given the imminence of
nanotechnology and artificial intelligence, I think it's likely
that UFOs represent an automatic intelligent system seeded here
perhaps tens of thousands of years ago.

In this case, UFOs might very well might be "zookeepers,"
keeping us alive by modulating our belief structures.

But alive for what purpose? Maybe so that we can eventually
contact/merge with/confront the grand creators of the UFO
control system after we've surmounted whatever evolutionary
hurdles are in store for us.

In this scenario, "open contact" would be the last thing we
should expect. At least in the foreseeable future...

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
       http://mactonnies.com







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                      Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:52:44 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:26:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Tonnies


 >Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

<snip>

 >But those parts of the world that aren't interested in listening
 >to the evidence and truth don't have to do so, so no one person
 >can be responsible for the consequences of when governments
 >themselves, especially that of the USA, eventually find they
 >have to disclose the truth.

It seems to be a given lately that UFO "disclosure" is
inevitable. I disagree. If the UFO phenomenon is as weird as I
think it is, "disclosure" will take place only if the
intelligence behind the phenomenon itself decides to reveal
itself.

A careful look at the history of the phenomenon
suggests to me that we're in for no such "disclosure"
anytime soon.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
       http://mactonnies.com






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                      THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 12-02-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 02:51:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:28:28 -0500
Subject: THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 12-02-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
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~ Brazil: UFO Explodes Over Coruginho, Brazil - Hoax?
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~ Refuting Fermi: No Evidence for ET Life?
~ Fermi's Pardox
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              Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 08:41:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:32:06 -0500
Subject: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy


The value of a give-and-take forum such as this is in
identifying reasons why intelligent people differ over
historical events. As we have discussed the X-15 program and the
ersatz-UFO on Bob White's flight - with the deliberate omission
of critical information from a cited news story - it's become
clear from defiant responses that the non-believers in the
explanation are coming from a gross misunderstanding of the
actual event.

It seems they think the rocket plane was cruising under engine
power at 60 miles up when something passed in front of them.
Naturally, any 'debris' explanation looks ridiculous under such
a scenario.

As the following quotes and links show, however, the flight
profile for the high-altitude missions (the only ones on which
objects were spotted outside) were very, very different from
this misperception. After a brief rocket burst, the ship coasted
up to a peak, hung at the edge of space, and fell back into the
atmosphere.

You actually can prove this mathematically from the information
that speeds on such missions reached 3600 mph. Since engine
cut-off was about 25 miles, with a vertical rate of 3600 mph,
you can see how at a 32 ft per sec per sec deceleration, the
upward fall lasts about 150 seconds and traverses 40 miles
straight up. All the way, it's a ballistic regime and anything
coming off the vehicle travels along with it over the arc and
back down.

See the following sites, and quotations, to expand on this
explanation.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/x15lect/intro.html

http://history.nasa.gov/x15/cover.html
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/Publications/SP-4303/ch6-5.html
http://www.najaco.com/books/aviationchorus/x15.htm

Milton Thompson: ""...We left the atmosphere and for 2 to 5
minutes, depending on peak altitude, we were weightless in a 0 g
space environment. We could not turn or change our flight path
outside the atmosphere. We could only control aircraft attitude
through the use of reaction controls. We made an exit of the
earth's atmosphere and a reentry just like any other
spacecraft."

Milton Thompson: ""Liquid oxygen is quite cold, as you may
remember from demonstrations in high school. We could always
tell how much liquid oxygen was in the tank by the frost on the
outer skin of the fuselage. It was always comforting to know
that if we crashed in the X-15, we would not suffer very long.
The liquid oxygen from a ruptured tank would freeze dry us in
seconds.""


http://www.edwards.af.mil/index-flash.html
http://www.edwards.af.mil/history/docs_html/aircraft/x-15.html

http://www.air-and-space.com/~brianl/x-15%20forty%20years%20later%20contents
.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/x-15.htm

Because of the large fuel consumption, the X-15 was air launched
from a B-52 aircraft at 45,000 ft and a speed of about 500 mph.
Depending on the mission, the rocket engine provided thrust for
the first 80 to 120 sec of flight. The remainder of the normal
10 to 11 min. flight was powerless and ended with a 200-mph
glide landing.

Generally, one of two types of X-15 flight profiles was used; a
high-altitude flight plan that called for the pilot to maintain
a steep rate of climb, or a speed profile that called for the
pilot to push over and maintain a level altitude.


http://www.space.edu/projects/dss/orbiter13_2.html

The typical X-15 flight profile consisted of an air-drop launch
at about 40,000 feet, ignition of the XLR-99 rocket engine,
powered flight up to 200,000 feet or so, and upward coasting
after that. The X-15 and its one-man crew were out of the
atmosphere at the apogee point of the flight, anywhere from
200,000 to 350,000+ feet up. The pilot would then nose the
little plane over, and begin a hypersonic nosedive toward the
earth. Descent rates were sometimes in excess of 240,000 feet
per minute. After a series of energy-reducing turns and
maneuvers, the pilot would flare just before landing, for a
touchdown at over 200 miles per hour.


http://www.acepilots.com/planes/x15.html

The X-15 was powered by a rocket engine, first the "small"
engine, and then by the XLR-99, a monster with 57,000 pounds of
thrust, almost comparable to the Mercury Redstone rocket that
launched Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom. A B-52 bomber carried the
X-15 aloft, releasing it at 45,000 feet at about 500 MPH. Then
the pilot switched on the rocket engine, which propelled the
plane for only 80 to 120 seconds, no more than two minutes. For
maneuvering at high altitudes, where there was no air for flaps
and ailerons to work with, the X-15 had six small hydrogen
peroxide jets, which controlled the plane's roll, pitch, and
yaw. To return, the pilot had to make a dead-stick (unpowered)
touchdown on the lakebed at Edwards, just as the shuttles do
today.


http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/jets/X-15/X-15info/X15-info.htm

"The second major goal of the X-15 was to fly out of the
atmosphere into "spaceequivalent" conditions. On a typical
highaltitude flight, the X-15 would launch from the B-52 mother
ship at 45,000 feet and would then accelerate and pull up into a
steep climb. Burnout occurred at about 160,000 feet at over
4,000mph. The airplane would then coast upward at zero G to max
altitude and then nose over into a reentry.

Unlike the space shuttle, which has a large horizontal velocity
at entry and scrubs off speed at high angles of attack, the X-15
was coming almost straight down when it reentered. At 130,000
feet, a hypersonic pullout began and was completed at 65,000
feet. Maintaining stability and control in the reentry pullout
was one of the most difficult problems faced by the program."

"The X-15 could reach altitudes of above 99 percent of the
earth's atmosphere. At the peak of these trajectories, the
aerodynamic control surfaces had no effect. The airplane was
equipped with a reaction control system that consisted of
hydrogen-peroxide-fueled thruster rockets. The X-15 was the
first manned vehicle to use reaction controls outside the
atmosphere. The thrusters were controlled by a lefthand-side
stick. The X-15 thruster system was later adapted for use on the
Mercury spacecraft and was the direct ancestor of all spacecraft
reaction controls."


http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/bdana/

Bill Dana: "I don't understand this phenomena but it felt like
you were actually fired off the pylon; you were actually only
falling away at zero gravity, but it felt like you were fired
away, and it was quite a shock at launch. Then the engine revved
and things really happened fast after that. The X-15 weighed
33,000 pounds at launch and the engine put out 60,000 pounds of
thrust, so we had almost 2 Gs when you lit the engine. As the
fuel burned down by burn-out you only had 15,000 pounds of gross
weight and a 60,000 pound engine, so except for drag, if you're
on a high altitude mission where there wasn't much drag, you're
getting almost 4 Gs of pure acceleration. We had about 85
seconds of fuel and in those 85 seconds we went from Mach .8 to
Mach 5.5 or 6.0 on some flights. That's a pretty wild ride. Milt
Thompson once said - and this is the best line that came out of
the X-15 program - the X-15 was the only airplane he ever flew
where he was glad when the engine quit! You'd be pinned back in
the seat there wondering how long you were going to be able to
survive this and then the engine would burn out and you'd feel
like 'ahh,' you were back at zero G. On an altitude mission as
you climbed out, the air went away and pretty soon you were
really at zero gravity. "

What does the world look like from 300,000 feet?

It's a beautiful view. You're in dark sky. The atmosphere
appears as a bright blue ring, just like the view you see in the
movies. It's peaceful. It's quiet. There's no gravity so your
heart isn't working as hard to move the blood, so it's kind of
relaxing.








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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 11:36:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:20:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:14:48 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:29:44 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>I do wonder, however, where the water vapor that could form
 >>such ice particles came from.

 >Reasonable question, with all alternatives properly catalogued
 >and discussed.

 >There's another possibility, not mentioned.

 >Both around the cryo tanks and the super-cold propellant lines,
 >ice always formed while the X-15 was on the carrier plane.
 >Atmospheric condensation at those altitudes was common.

 >Once out of the atmosphere, different kinds of jets were fired
 >to point the X-15. They also could have effects on things tucked
 >away in the aft end, for example.

 >Check out some books on the X-15 project to see what they say
 >about this phenomenon.

Or better yet go to Yahoo and download any number of sites from
NASA to the AF. The propellant tanks are about 8 to 10 feet
behind the cockpit on the X-15 and a foot or so further back on
the 15A. In some photos of in flight exercises one can see the
accumulated frost in that area. Though I still don't buy the ice
flake theory [because I'm sure White and other X-15 pilots would
have be aware of this] the only way that an ice flake could get
forward would be during some braking maneauver-possibly while
pushing the nose down with the attitude thrusters. The
aircraft's planform would offer considerable more air resistance
[what little air there is at that altitude]effectively braking
it. So there's that possibility if the flake was tracking
alongside and with the aircraft or jarred loose by the braking.
Thing is the flake would have passed high if the nose was pushed
down-and the AC would not be performing a regular controlled
curve down but a nose down attitude while still maintaining the
same altitude-at least until aerodynamic forces and its own
weight took over. James you never got back to me on the teather
anomaly.


Best,

Don

PS - I'm back on the road so not able to respond until Tuesday
night.






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                   Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 09:56:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:23:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:10:50 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:58:52 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >The good answer came from readers here who provided the date of
 >the article and the source. The final answer will come from
 >reviewing the tape of the press conference in question, and
 >checking with Cernan -- both now in work.

I'd suggest that you are going to find whatever you _want_ to
find, Mr. Oberg, whatever intellectual stopgap satisfies the
world view you apologize for. As you suggestively pointed out
with your less than positive evaluation of Mr. Good,
contributors to the 'genre' fall into suspicious camps... but
_your_ assertions are less than accepted for exactly the reasons
that you would apply to your opponent(s). Your cast aspersions
become merely a projection of your own jealous fears and fearful
anxieties.

Keep this nay-sayingly negativist and squirmingly phactual
debate up (?), and I think you'd likely harm your reputation as
a space historian.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
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JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
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"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.






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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:00:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:25:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:23:05 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:48:22 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>James did admit that the ice flakes explanations trotted out by
 >>NASA et al for any number of sightings was a red herring.

 >I apologize for being unclear, since I never meant to say any
 >such thing.

 >The ice or 'space debris' explanation, as far as I've been able
 >to tell, is a legitimate and defendable prosaic explanation for
 >these 'famous' UFO reports in space.

 >Another misconception you have to overcome is this notion of
 >something drifting to the front of the X-15.

 >Actually, once exo-atmospheric, the X-15 itself points itself in
 >any random direction using wing-mounted jets. It can do this to
 >point instruments, or for sightseeing, and ultimately to line
 >itself up for re-entry.

 >During this time, even something flaking off its back end can
 >easily wind up in front of the cockpit window as the spacecraft
 >rotates.

 >JimO

Hi James,

I'm aware of the attitude adjustments the X-15 could make in
"near space". I don't get the feeling that White was in an
unusual attitude from the report-but since we don't have much to
go on here, what you say is a possibility. In another submission
a few minutes ago on this same argument I offered the braking
maneuver -see your statement from above [and ultimately to line
itself up for re-entry] as a possible reason why a large ice
flake might have gotten ahead of him.

Surely though during the many braking and other positioning
maneuvers carried out during the X-15/15A program ice flakes
would have been evident. What was so special about this that
prompted White's remarks?

 >The ice or 'space debris' explanation, as far as I've been able
 >to tell, is a legitimate and defendable prosaic explanation for
 >these 'famous' UFO reports in space.

All of them? Some are a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying that
because they might not be ice flakes then they have to be
"intelligently controlled" but some of these "ice flakes"
explanations are a little off-the-wall. Again the teather ice
flake explanation.


Don Ledger







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                  Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:31:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 14:27:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Velez


 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:25:06 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:22:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles

 >>Hi Everyone,

 >>Permit me make some comments of my own regarding Nancy Talbot's
 >>crop circle research.

 >>There were some details in Nancy Talbot's description of the
 >>beams she and Robbert v/d Broeke saw and mentioned on Errol's
 >>UFO radio show last weekend that do not support her
 >>interpretation that they were flashes of light (about a second
 >>in duration) coming down from the sky to the ground. Since
 >>Robbert (who was in the first floor) saw a 4 inch diameter beam
 >>of light while Nancy (who was on the second floor) saw an 8 to
 >>12 inch diameter beam of light, which she describes as a
 >>"searchlight" in her written report, it must have been just
 >>that. Many cars have 4 inch diameter headlights and so do some 1
 >>million candlepower searchlights one can readily buy at most
 >>hardware stores which produce such diverging beams of light. It
 >>is not unusual for cows to become excited with some unfamilar
 >>and unexpected activity at night, such as a stranger with a
 >>powerful flashlight.

 >>Since Nancy failed to prove to me that the short duration beams
 >>of light came from above and not below (how could one even say
 >>considering how fast light travels) and failed to establish a
 >>connection to the bawling cows (have they been known to bawl at
 >>other occasions too or just when the beams of light were
 >>noticed?), she cannot claim to be a witness to the creation of a
 >>crop circle. Considering the lights were on and her room well
 >>lit, I am a little surprised that Nancy even noticed the beams
 >>of light outside, even if her bedroom window had no curtains
 >>(she didn't say).

 ><snip>

Hiya Nick, Michelle, All,

Michelle wrote:

 >Errol and List,

 >I disagree wholeheartedly with Nick Balaskas' statement
 >regarding Nancy Talbot's eyewitness account of the formation of
 >a crop circle.

I agree Michelle. Nick has every right in the world to propose
alternative explanations but I don't think the ones he made were
very well thought out. I'd like to tackle them point by point if
I may because I have some pointed questions that I'd like to put
to Nick.

Nick mentioned that there are substances than can affect a.
plant stems, and b. create genetic 'freaks.'

In terms of plant stems being 'bent' at a 90 degree angle (and
not 'broken') I'd like to know 'which' substances are known to
affect plants in such a highly specific and localized way, (bend
the stem at a right angle just above ground level) and how such
a substance is used/applied to the plants. If the hoaxers have
to apply such substances by hand, on each stem, then you can
easily see the sheer impracticality of it.

In terms of 'genetic freaks,' there are substances that can
force certain plants to express polyploidy, (doubled
chromosomes) ie; larger roots, stems, leaves, fruit, or flowers,
- but all the ones I know of, (colchisine being one of more
widely known and used) they must be applied to the 'seeds' and
not to mature plants.

Also, substances like colchisine <-(not sure sp.?) or any others
that are powerful enough to induce genetic alterations in plant
cells, are more often than not; highly toxic, leave residue in plant
tissue, and is 'easy' to detect.

In terms of 'hoaxers' affecting plants in the ways that Nick was
speculating about, they would have to literally; swab or introduce
a substance that will bend all the plant stems in the selcted area
uniformly, then they would have to treat seeds with genetically
altering chemicals, plant and germinate the seeds, nurture and
grow the plants to make it 'seem-like' the local vegetation was
affected 'supernaturally' somehow. And all in the name of creating
a hoax. Plus, many of these formations are found in edible grain
fields. Colchisine and similar substances are _highly_ toxic and
poisonous to humans and animals in micro-doses. If someone is
using one of these toxic substances to create genetic freaks
for use in a hoax, they would be criminally liable for endangering
both the publics' health and its safety. Doesn't make any sense
no matter how you slice it.

Then Nick goes on to say that desiccated soil is then
'sprinkled' on the area by the hoaxers and that that 'explains'
the kind of findings/test results that BLT and other
investigative groups have been getting on tested soil samples.
That also doesn't make any sense.

Budd had a soil sample from a reported (by multiple witnesses)
"UFO" affected area. It was tested at an agricultural lab that
found that the submitted sample had been exposed to extremely
high temperatures that left the soil unable to absorb any
moisture at all. Water would literally 'bead-up' on the surface.
If the desiccated soil had merely been 'sprinkled' on the area
as Nick proposes, the lab would not have gotten the results that
it did. Ditto for the desiccated samples tested by BLT.

I'm not arguing for a 'paranormal' source for crop formations. I
don't know enough about the subject to argue the point one way
or the other with any kind of authority. I do know that; what
Nick proposes as possible explanations for crop circles isn't
'practical' or even possible. Much less 'likely.'

Just wanted to chuck in my own two cents. I've been terribly
busy and I haven't had much time for the List. I wanted to chime
in on this one sooner.  ;)


Regards,

John Velez







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                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:56:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 14:29:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:26:03 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:23:27 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:03:02 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The pressure that blowing air exerts on a stationary object is
 >>the air density times the square of wind velocity. So the
 >>pressure exerted by air 60 miles up against an object traveling
 >>at 3500 mph is equivalent to the pressure exerted by a wind
 >>blowing at 14 miles per hour at sea level air pressure

 >Good calculations, but wrong assumptions about initial
 >conditions.

 >When you finally figure out what your mistake is, you'll slap
 >yourself on the forehead and groan with embarrassment.


Well, I tend not to get too embarrassed about making wrong
assumptions when I don't claim any particular expertise on a
subject. How about you?

You seem to be assuming that on its high-altitude flights, the
X-15 was going straight up and then fell straight down, with
almost no velocity relative to the ground at the high point of
its trajectory.  I was thinking that trajectory would be
unlikely because the reentry from that kind of nose dive could
be disastrous. I assumed instead that the plane probably was on
a parabolic trajectory, maintaining a hypersonic speed at the
highest point. It looks like my assumption was correct. See the
drawing of the X-15 flight path at:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-60/ch-4.html

This drawing is for a flight to an altitude of 250,000 feet, or
47 miles, but it's comparable to White's flight to 60 miles
altitude. The drawing shows the speed at the top of the
trajectory to be 3500 miles per hour.

For unpowered flight over a vertical distance H with a velocity
of V0 at engine cut-off, the velocity at the highest point is:

    V1 = (v0^2 - 2GH) ^ 1/2

with G being the acceleration of gravity: 32 feet/sec^2.

For the example on the NASA web page, the vertical distance of
the unpowered flight was 90,000 feet, and the speed at engine
cut-off is 4000 mph. I get a final velocity of 3650 miles per
hour, which isn't far off from what's shown on the drawing (3500
mph). The difference of 150mph might be due to kinetic energy
lost to friction that I don't account for. Or maybe they just
rounded off the velocity to 3500 mph for the purposes of the
illustration.

If the power cut-off altitude and speed were the same for
White's trip (and they must have been similar), then White's
speed at the highest point in his trajectory, 60 miles up was
3370 mph, perhaps a little lower due to frictional energy
losses. The pressures would still be on the order of a wind
blowing at more than 10 miles per hour at sea level. No ice
flake is going to hover near the aircraft with those pressures
acting on it.

There's an additional factor, too: the earth is rotating toward
the east at 1000 miles per hour and the atmosphere is rotating
with it while a free-falling aircraft is not. The flight path in
the illustration shows the plane travelling toward the west, so
you can probably add several hundred mph to the plane's ~3300
mph speed. The wind patterns at that altitude could be kind of
tricky, but I doubt it could get tricky enough to make an ice
flake appear to hover for any length of time.

BTW: These flights lasted less than five minutes, so if
something hung around long enough for White to notice it, it
must have been visible over a fairly wide range of altitudes. It
might have been visible at lower altitudes where the air is
denser, not just at the top of his trajectory while White was
technically in space.







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                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:20:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 14:31:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Fleming


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:00:10 -0400
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Ledger

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:23:05 -0600

 >>>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 11:48:22 -0400
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001

 >>>James did admit that the ice flakes explanations trotted out by
 >>>NASA et al for any number of sightings was a red herring.

 >>I apologize for being unclear, since I never meant to say any
 >>such thing.

 >>The ice or 'space debris' explanation, as far as I've been able
 >>to tell, is a legitimate and defendable prosaic explanation for
 >>these 'famous' UFO reports in space.

 >>Another misconception you have to overcome is this notion of
 >>something drifting to the front of the X-15.

 >>Actually, once exo-atmospheric, the X-15 itself points itself in
 >>any random direction using wing-mounted jets. It can do this to
 >>point instruments, or for sightseeing, and ultimately to line
 >>itself up for re-entry.

 >>During this time, even something flaking off its back end can
 >>easily wind up in front of the cockpit window as the spacecraft
 >>rotates.

 >>JimO

 >Hi James,

 >I'm aware of the attitude adjustments the X-15 could make in
 >"near space". I don't get the feeling that White was in an
 >unusual attitude from the report-but since we don't have much to
 >go on here, what you say is a possibility. In another submission
 >a few minutes ago on this same argument I offered the braking
 >maneuver -see your statement from above [and ultimately to line
 >itself up for re-entry] as a possible reason why a large ice
 >flake might have gotten ahead of him.

 >Surely though during the many braking and other positioning
 >maneuvers carried out during the X-15/15A program ice flakes
 >would have been evident. What was so special about this that
 >prompted White's remarks?

 >>The ice or 'space debris' explanation, as far as I've been able
 >>to tell, is a legitimate and defendable prosaic explanation for
 >>these 'famous' UFO reports in space.

 >All of them? Some are a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying that
 >because they might not be ice flakes then they have to be
 >"intelligently controlled" but some of these "ice flakes"
 >explanations are a little off-the-wall. Again the teather ice
 >flake explanation.

The STS-80 video is the only one I've seen that I thought
strongly suggested "ice flakes" under intelligent control. The
video sequence is about 5 minutes long and shows at least one of
the objects moving on an intersecting course toward another
object, coming to a stop relative to the second object as it
nears it. The other object had also started out moving at a high
apparent speed and had come to a complete stop not relative to
the camera but relative to the Earth, which was moving with
respect to the shuttle. Then that object started moving again.
Whoever was controlling the camera apparently thought this was
pretty interesting behavior for ice flakes. When the "stopped"
object started moving toward the horizon and joined another
bunch of "ice flakes", the camera followed and zoomed in on it.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:49:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:38:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:56:36 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-60/ch-4.html

Wow, neat chart, different than all the others I've seen. Let's
try to figure out which is trustworthy. But you found a
close-to-original source, so your assumptions are defendable.
Good work.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:53:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:40:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:20:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The STS-80 video is the only one I've seen that I thought
 >strongly suggested "ice flakes" under intelligent control. ..

 >Whoever was controlling the camera apparently thought this was
 >pretty interesting behavior for ice flakes. When the "stopped"
 >object started moving toward the horizon and joined another
 >bunch of "ice flakes", the camera followed and zoomed in on it.


So why not ask them? These are guys I've worked with for years,
they've told me they think the UFO buffs are really loony, and
they're tired of wasting time on explanations that are ignored.

Their sland term for responding to these kinds of inquiries is
'bug hunt', as in Aliens-II.

But at least you should interview primary witnesses, if you want
to do a real investigation.









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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: chris aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:36:03 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:42:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? III
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >Scientific discoveries have always caused trouble
 >for dogmatic Church teachings. In Bruno's time,
 >astronomy was a threat to the teachings of the
 >Church.

<snip>

Dear Kelly,

Bruno was not a 16th century "ufologist" because he never saw,
nor claimed anyone ever saw, nor even mentioned or hinted at the
existence of, UFOs.

Unless we regard planets, stars and comets as UFOs, that is.

Furthermore, his ideas on the plurality of life in the universe
were not entirely original, just as the earth was not believed
by everyone to be flat.


Chris Aubeck







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                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:56:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:44:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Maccabee


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:54:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


<snip>

 >In Oberg's response, we find two Klassic staples of debunking
 >technique:

 >1. Any "explanation," no matter how stupid or impossible, is
 >preferable to none.

Although Klass and other skeptics have used this technique, I
was the first (I believe) to formally state it as Maccabee's
First Rule for Debunkers:

Any explanation is better than none    (no matter how
cockeyed).

(I have presented this rule publicly in lectures and papers and
on this list many times in the past)

 >2. Even if a valid objection is raised to the aforementioned
 >"explanation" never admit error. Instead evade, stonewall,
 >ridicule, obfuscate, whatever, such as "Do you have any evidence
 >he wasn't in space" or "Oh, what do you expect of
 >Ufologists--they just never accept a true, prosaic explanation."

This is related to Maccabee's Second Rule:

_If_ the first explanation doesn't work or seems unconvincing,
try another.

The Corollary to the Second Rule is, if the second explanation
doesn't work or is unconvincing, try a third... etc.  ad
infinitum.







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                     Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:08:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:48:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:21 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>... But religion assumes a
 >>transcendent being in control. What if humanity were to suddenly
 >>come face to face with material biological beings who seem to be
 >>in control, or at least have much greater capa bility than we?
 >>Think about it.

 >Hello Bruce,

 >This and all your foregoing are quite true and relevant.
 >However:

 >>Do YOU want to announce the proof of UFO reality to the world...
 >>and be responsible for the consequences? ...>

 >ist, in _UFOs Are Real...Here's the Proof_ and elsewhere. Now's
 >not the time to stop! You needn't worry about any abrupt
 >immediate consequences, since the self-cover is still so strong
 >that no one individual can breach it. Yet, every individual's
 >s>incere efforts at breaching it helps in some small measure,
 >s>ome more than others, as it does have a positive effect in
 >g>etting out the truth.

 >But those parts of the world that aren't interested in listening
 >to the evidence and truth don't have to do so, so no one person
 >can be responsible for the consequences of when governments
t>hemselves, especially that of the USA, eventually find they
 >have to disclose the truth. By that time, all you competent
 >ufologists in the future, now and in the past half century, will
 >have done your jobs so that the societal consequences will not
 >be as severe as otherwise.>

Yes.... yes.... I realize that few people take what I say seriously
(few other than knowledgable ufologists) and so I don't expect to
bring civilization down upon my head.

But what if the Presidents of the USA and FSU (Former Soviet
Union) and The Pope and Walter Cronkite (former CBS news anchor)
were to all stand up before a press conference and say what I
(and numerous opther before me) have said.

That _would_ cause a major fluctuation in the history of
civilization.... may be even leading to the descruction of
civilization as we know it.

Would that result in something better or worse.... That is the
Question!







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                  Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:09:01 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:52:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy
 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 08:41:34 -0600

Oberg's post starts off on the right note:

 >The value of a give-and-take forum such as this is in
 >identifying reasons why intelligent people differ over
 >historical events.

Then immediately degenerates into his usual
much-ado-about-nothing cant about Bob White's quote when much
more grievous misinformation from Oberg immediately awaits:

 >As we have discussed the X-15 program and the
 >ersatz-UFO on Bob White's flight - with the deliberate omission
 >of critical information from a cited news story

A typical, though mild ad-hominem about "non-believers," as if
to question anything he has to say is some sort of personal
short-coming:

 >- it's become
 >clear from defiant responses that the non-believers in the
 >explanation are coming from a gross misunderstanding of the
 >actual event.

A misstatement or misunderstanding about what the opposition is
really saying:

 >It seems they think the rocket plane was cruising under engine
 >power at 60 miles up when something passed in front of them.
 >Naturally, any 'debris' explanation looks ridiculous under such
 >a scenario.

When that's not what the "non-believers" were thinking. Nobody I
know said or thought the X-15 was still cruising under rocket
power.  What they were wondering is how an "ice-sheet,"
described as looking as thin as a piece of paper, could appear
relatively motionless outside Bob White's side window and
survive while he was still travelling at hypersonic speeds in a
non-vacuum. Furthermore, it's more than a little unclear how any
ice that formed at lower altitudes could survive unscathed under
high vibrations conditions (see below), only to break loose
later when the craft wasn't vibrating.

 >As the following quotes and links show, however, the flight
 >profile for the high-altitude missions (the only ones on which
 >objects were spotted outside) were very, very different from
 >this misperception. After a brief rocket burst, the ship coasted
 >up to a peak, hung at the edge of space, and fell back into the
 >atmosphere.

This wasn't anybody's "misperception" that I know of.

Now comes these astoundingly erroneous statements from Oberg,
which make any selective quotations of Bob White's X-15 remarks
pale in comparison:

 >You actually can prove this mathematically from the information
 >that speeds on such missions reached 3600 mph. Since engine
 >cut-off was about 25 miles, with a vertical rate of 3600 mph,
 >you can see how at a 32 ft per sec per sec deceleration, the
 >upward fall lasts about 150 seconds and traverses 40 miles
 >straight up. All the way, it's a ballistic regime and anything
 >coming off the vehicle travels along with it over the arc and
 >back down.

This is very strange physics Jimbo. Don't you know the
difference between total velocity and the horizontal and
vertical _components_ of the velocity? According to you, the
X-15 had a vertical velocity equal to its total velocity,
meaning it would have been travelling straight up!

When you make ridiculous statements like this, it just further
hurts your credibility as being an aerospace expert. Instead the
term "pelican science" starts to come to mind.

Please also note from your own quoted references below, the X-15
engines generally cut out at higher altitudes than your stated
25 miles (depending, I assume, on the particular mission):

 >On a typical
 >highaltitude flight, the X-15 would launch from the B-52 mother
 >ship at 45,000 feet and would then accelerate and pull up into a
 >steep climb. Burnout occurred at about 160,000 feet at over
 >4,000mph. The airplane would then coast upward at zero G to max
 >altitude and then nose over into a reentry.

and

 > The typical X-15 flight profile consisted of an air-drop launch
 >at about 40,000 feet, ignition of the XLR-99 rocket engine,
 >powered flight up to 200,000 feet or so, and upward coasting
 >after that. The X-15 and its one-man crew were out of the
 >atmosphere at the apogee point of the flight, anywhere from
 >200,000 to 350,000+ feet up.

Thus, according to your own references, burnout for high-altitude flights
(like White's) was from 160,000 (30 miles) to 200,000 (38 miles), not 25
miles.

Since White's flight was one of the highest flights (about
315,000 feet or almost 60 miles), I will assume in the following
exercise that the engine cut out at 200,000 feet and the X-15
then coasted a passive ballistic trajectory for the remaining
115,000 ft (22 miles, not your equally ridiculous "40 miles
straight up" BTW, here's another heads up: 60 - 25 = 35, not 40.
Sheesh!)

Using the basic physics formula, distance = 1/2 * g(grav.
acceler) * t^2, the time 't' to coast the 115,000 feet
(neglecting air friction) would be about 85 seconds. The initial
_vertical_ (not net) velocity needed to coast this far would
then be velocity = accel * time = 32 * 85 = 2700 ft/sec = 1850
mph (a far cry from Oberg's 3600 mph "straight up" vertical
velocity).

White's maximum _net_ velocity at engine cutoff was Mach 6.04 or
4070 mph. From this simplified model, his angle of attack at
cutoff to have a vertical velocity component of 1850 would be
arcsin(1850/4070) = 27 degrees. His component of horizontal
velocity would therefore be 4070*cos(27 deg) = 3620 mph (Mach
5.4).

(Hmmm, the same velocity Jim Oberg claimed White was going
"straight up." Could it be he doesn't know the difference
between horizontal and vertical velocity?)

In a true vacuum, the horizontal velocity would remain
unchanged, but in the actual non-vacuum frictional, drag will
slow the plane down. The question is by how much? Oberg in
another post today ridiculing my objections to the "ice sheet"
theory claimed the following:

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:07:06 -0600

 >The X-15 at is high point is moving at most only a few hundred feet per
second.

"A few hundred feet per second" would be only a few hundred mph
or subsonic. If that were the case, then Oberg's ice sheet
hypothesis might be saved. The effective near-vacuum "wind" at
60 miles would then be reduced by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude
from the hypersonic velocities assumed by Lan Fleming and
myself.

The problem is, such low velocities at peak altitude seem to be
just more baloney from Jim Oberg, along with his 40 miles and
3600 mph "straight up."

Oberg's first reference below provides strong evidence that
Oberg probably made up that low velocity figure, perhaps in an
attempt to save his "ice sheet" explanation.

 >See the following sites, and quotations, to expand on this explanation.

 >http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/x15lect/intro.html

Now go to the second page of this website and look at the graphs
showing plots of Mach number vs. angles of attack:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/x15lect/piloting.html

Look at the third graph with the inserted curve labeled "Typical
altitude mission" and also the region of this curve labeled
"reentry." First observe the right edge of this curve near the
peak, indicating that the maximum Mach number for this example
was about 5.5, about the same as the _horizontal_ velocity of
White's flight at engine cutoff.

Now note that in the region marked "reentry" the lowest Mach speed is about
3.7, or about 2500 mph or 3700 ft/sec, the slowdown from Mach 5.5 (3700 mph)
presumably representing the effects of air friction.

This is a far cry from Oberg's "The X-15 at its high point is
moving at most only a few hundred feet per second."

Furthermore, note in this example flight that the angle of
attack (about 15 degrees) is much shallower at maximum Mach than
the one calculated above for White's flight (about 27 degrees).
If this shallower angle of attack was translated to White's
higher flight speed, the initial _vertical_ velocity at cutoff
would have been in the neighborhood of 1050 mph, the X-15 would
have glided upward for only another 33 seconds, and risen only
another 17,000 feet, instead of 115,000 (hopefully I did all my
calculations right).

The point of this is that this example flight would have been
through much denser atmosphere than White's flight. That nearly
100,000 foot difference in altitude also represents about a
100-fold difference in air density. White's flight would not
have been slowed nearly as much by air friction as the example
flight curve. How much less? As a crude estimate, assume a
geometric mean of about 10 times less average air density and
resulting frictional loss. Instead of dropping 1200 mph in air
speed because of friction, White's horizontal speed would more
likely have dropped about 1/10th of this, or from my initial
calculated 3620 down to about 3500 mph.

This is also exactly what Lan Fleming was saying in another
response to Oberg today. See:

 >>Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:56:36 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-60/ch-4.html

 >>This drawing is for a flight to an altitude of 250,000 feet, or
 >>47 miles, but it's comparable to White's flight to 60 miles
 >>altitude. The drawing shows the speed at the top of the
 >>trajectory to be 3500 miles per hour.

Like Fleming, with these rough calculations and not knowing the
exact mission profile, I'm not claiming White was travelling at
exactly 3500 mph at his maximum altitude, but he wouldn't have
been too far removed from this speed, perhaps a few hundred mph
less (as, e.g., if the engines cut out at a lower altitude and a
steeper attack angle was employed). We are still definitely
talking about hypersonic speeds here, not "at most only a few
hundred feet per second."

Lan also did a calculation of the effective "wind speed"
experienced at a speed of about 3500 mph but in the much thinner
atmosphere 60 miles up, reduced in density by approximately a
million-fold compared to sea level, and came up with about 14
mph. To play it conservative, let's cut this wind to 10 mph, or
about 15 feet/sec.

Now let's go through the scenario being proposed by Oberg, at
least as I understand it, to see if it has any merit.

Oberg proposes that at maximum altitude and in a near vacuum,
the X-15 was maneuvering sideways?, backwards?, he doesn't say,
so that a piece of ice could somehow break off (from where
exactly and prompted by what?) and be even with or ahead of the
pilot's cabin, rather than having to migrate forward.

First of all, Oberg has provided zero evidence that the X-15 was
maneuvered to these extremes. It seems unlikely to me that the
pilots would maneuver too far from straight ahead in this near
vacuum environment in the few minutes they had, since if the
plane wasn't near correct allignment as it began diving back
towards earth, it could quickly spell disaster. But I don't
know. I never claimed to be an aviation expert like Oberg. Also,
none of Oberg's references deal with the question.

However, let's give this scenario its best shot. Assume White
has spun the plane almost completely around so that the rocket
engine is now towards the front and the pilot's cabin is
toward's the rear. This is needed to get the hypothetical ice
sheet ahead of the pilot.

A thin sheet of ice caused by the liquid oxygen, which has
somehow managed to survive the earlier severe vibrations of
flight (see below), breaks off from somewhere (a rocket nozzle,
I think Oberg originally proposed), though why this happens now,
when the ice isn't particularly stressed, and not earlier, when
it was, is not explained.

The speed of the plane is _not_ subsonic, as Oberg falsely
claimed, but still very much hypersonic, probably around Mach
5+. Thus there is an effective wind speed on the order of 10 mph
or 15 ft/sec even in this near vacuum. Being a flat ice sheet
and non-aerodynamic, it is subjected to maximum drag forces.
Despite being described as appearing paper-thin by White, it
does not immediately start to break apart. But it does quickly
drift front to back in 2 or 3 seconds past the side view of the
surprised pilot, who exclaims "There really are things out
there." In a few more seconds, it will fall behind the plane and
disappear from view.

Instead of thinking that maybe it's some sort of
nonconsequential debris that has broken off the plane, pilot
White thinks the whole episode is unusual enough to deserve
comment. He also describes the "ice" as appearing gray, a very
unusual description for pristine "ice."

Oberg also states at the beginning that, "it's become clear from
defiant responses that the non-believers in the explanation are
coming from a gross misunderstanding of the actual event."

I can't image why there might be "non-believers" with their
"defiant responses" to Oberg's scenario. As to "gross
misunderstanding of he actual event," perhaps Oberg is referring
to his own "gross misunderstanding," such as the X-15 travelling
straight up at 3600 mph or having a maximum speed of only a few
hundred mph when these events are supposed to have transpired.

These statements are completely false. Furthermore, they are
coming from a self-proclaimed aero-space expert, something I
certainly never claimed to be. This makes them even more
difficult to fathom.

Again, I can't imagine why people would mistrust something
coming from Jim Oberg.

 >http://history.nasa.gov/x15/cover.html
 >http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/Publications/SP-4303/ch6-5.html
 >http://www.najaco.com/books/aviationchorus/x15.htm

 >Milton Thompson: ""...We left the atmosphere and for 2 to 5
 >minutes, depending on peak altitude, we were weightless in a 0 g
 >space environment. We could not turn or change our flight path
 >outside the atmosphere. We could only control aircraft attitude
 >through the use of reaction controls. We made an exit of the
 >earth's atmosphere and a reentry just like any other
 >spacecraft."

All very interesting, but tells us nothing about the extremes of
maneuvering. Did they maneuver backwards?

 >Milton Thompson: ""Liquid oxygen is quite cold, as you may
 >remember from demonstrations in high school. We could always
 >tell how much liquid oxygen was in the tank by the frost on the
 >outer skin of the fuselage. It was always comforting to know
 >that if we crashed in the X-15, we would not suffer very long.
 >The liquid oxygen from a ruptured tank would freeze dry us in
 >seconds.""

This is irrelevant except in the very earliest stages of flight
when there was still liquid oxygen in the tanks. After engine
burnout, the tanks would be empty. No more ice would form,
particularly in the extremely arrid conditions of these
altitudes.

Now here's another thing I would like to know. How did ice
manage to adhere to those tanks or any part of the plane for any
length of time while the engines were blazing away and also when
they were off when the fuel was exhausted. (I still vividly
remember those sheets of ice on the outer skin of the Saturn
rockets dropping off on lift-off.)

The extreme vibrations of the X-15 and the fuel tanks, even
after engine cutoff, were graphically described by Bob White
himself in the following excerpt from:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/x15conf/pilots.html

Then the sounds, bangs, and booms through the aircraft, loud,
often. "What the hell," I wondered, "are we coming apart?" I
pictured an Asian bell about 20 ft in diameter with some strong
guy with a hammer about 6 ft long, beating that bell to death.
The answer, simple enough: the flight control system working at
its maximum potential was banging against its stops. **The
noises from this action reverberated through the large, now
empty, fuel tanks** and were amplified in sound to the pilot's
cockpit. I thought later that I was glad I was not hearing the
bells of St. Marys.

So even though the empty fuel tanks and the plane were being
rung like a bell (presumably at the lower altitudes), the ice
stubbornly adhered to parts of the craft, only to somehow come
off later in the near-vacuum, low-vibration environment the X-15
experienced 60 miles up. Have I got that right?

 >http://www.edwards.af.mil/index-flash.html
 >http://www.edwards.af.mil/history/docs_html/aircraft/x-15.html
 >http://www.air-and-space.com/~brianl/x-15%20forty%20years%20later%20conten
ts.htm
 >http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/x-15.htm

<snip>

 >Generally, one of two types of X-15 flight profiles was used; a
 >high-altitude flight plan that called for the pilot to maintain
 >a steep rate of climb, or a speed profile that called for the
 >pilot to push over and maintain a level altitude.

 >http://www.space.edu/projects/dss/orbiter13_2.html

 >The typical X-15 flight profile consisted of an air-drop launch
 >at about 40,000 feet, ignition of the XLR-99 rocket engine,
 >powered flight up to 200,000 feet or so, and upward coasting
 >after that. The X-15 and its one-man crew were out of the
 >atmosphere at the apogee point of the flight, anywhere from
 >200,000 to 350,000+ feet up. The pilot would then nose the
 >little plane over, and begin a hypersonic nosedive toward the
 >earth. Descent rates were sometimes in excess of 240,000 feet
 >per minute. After a series of energy-reducing turns and
 >maneuvers, the pilot would flare just before landing, for a
 >touchdown at over 200 miles per hour.

 >http://www.acepilots.com/planes/x15.html

 >The X-15 was powered by a rocket engine, first the "small"
 >engine, and then by the XLR-99, a monster with 57,000 pounds of
 >thrust, almost comparable to the Mercury Redstone rocket that
 >launched Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom. A B-52 bomber carried the
 >X-15 aloft, releasing it at 45,000 feet at about 500 MPH. Then
 >the pilot switched on the rocket engine, which propelled the
 >plane for only 80 to 120 seconds, no more than two minutes. For
 >maneuvering at high altitudes, where there was no air for flaps
 >and ailerons to work with, the X-15 had six small hydrogen
 >peroxide jets, which controlled the plane's roll, pitch, and
 >yaw. To return, the pilot had to make a dead-stick (unpowered)
 >touchdown on the lakebed at Edwards, just as the shuttles do
 >today.

Again, nothing here to tell us to what extremes the X-15 maneuvered at these
high altitudes.

 >
 >http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/jets/X-15/X-15info/X15-info.htm
 >
 >"The second major goal of the X-15 was to fly out of the
 >atmosphere into "spaceequivalent" conditions. On a typical
 >highaltitude flight, the X-15 would launch from the B-52 mother
 >ship at 45,000 feet and would then accelerate and pull up into a
 >steep climb. Burnout occurred at about 160,000 feet at over
 >4,000mph. The airplane would then coast upward at zero G to max
 >altitude and then nose over into a reentry.
 >
 >Unlike the space shuttle, which has a large horizontal velocity
 >at entry and scrubs off speed at high angles of attack, the X-15
 >was coming almost straight down when it reentered. At 130,000
 >feet, a hypersonic pullout began and was completed at 65,000
 >feet. Maintaining stability and control in the reentry pullout
 >was one of the most difficult problems faced by the program."
 >
 >"The X-15 could reach altitudes of above 99 percent of the
 >earth's atmosphere. At the peak of these trajectories, the
 >aerodynamic control surfaces had no effect. The airplane was
 >equipped with a reaction control system that consisted of
 >hydrogen-peroxide-fueled thruster rockets. The X-15 was the
 >first manned vehicle to use reaction controls outside the
 >atmosphere. The thrusters were controlled by a lefthand-side
 >stick. The X-15 thruster system was later adapted for use on the
 >Mercury spacecraft and was the direct ancestor of all spacecraft
 >reaction controls."

Again, there is nothing here about the how extreme the maneuvers
were. Somehow the "ice" has to be seen out of White's side
window.

 >http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/bdana/

 >Bill Dana: "I don't understand this phenomena but it felt like
 >you were actually fired off the pylon; you were actually only
 >falling away at zero gravity, but it felt like you were fired
 >away, and it was quite a shock at launch. Then the engine revved
 >and things really happened fast after that. The X-15 weighed
 >33,000 pounds at launch and the engine put out 60,000 pounds of
 >thrust, so we had almost 2 Gs when you lit the engine. As the
 >fuel burned down by burn-out you only had 15,000 pounds of gross
 >weight and a 60,000 pound engine, so except for drag, if you're
 >on a high altitude mission where there wasn't much drag, you're
 >getting almost 4 Gs of pure acceleration. We had about 85
 >seconds of fuel and in those 85 seconds we went from Mach .8 to
 >Mach 5.5 or 6.0 on some flights. That's a pretty wild ride. Milt
 >Thompson once said - and this is the best line that came out of
 >the X-15 program - the X-15 was the only airplane he ever flew
 >where he was glad when the engine quit! You'd be pinned back in
 >the seat there wondering how long you were going to be able to
 >survive this and then the engine would burn out and you'd feel
 >like 'ahh,' you were back at zero G. On an altitude mission as
 >you climbed out, the air went away and pretty soon you were
 >really at zero gravity. "

 >What does the world look like from 300,000 feet?

 >It's a beautiful view. You're in dark sky. The atmosphere
 >appears as a bright blue ring, just like the view you see in the
 >movies. It's peaceful. It's quiet. There's no gravity so your
 >heart isn't working as hard to move the blood, so it's kind of
 >relaxing.

Most of the material posted immediately above by Oberg is
interesting but also completely irrelevant to the discussion.
It's like a student padding a term paper hoping the instructor
won't notice the poor arguments, mistakes, and lack of content
therein.


David Rudiak







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
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Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
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   Dec > Dec 3

                                  IUFOMRC?

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:53:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:55:49 -0500
Subject: IUFOMRC?


Regarding the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell:

http://www.iufomrc.org/

I noticed that the last newsletter posted on the website is from
June 2001. I also noticed a statement that the:

"Millionth Visitor in Museum's 10 year history 'expected' before
the 2001 Roswell UFO festival in July."

It appears the website has not been updated for a long time.
Does anyone know why? Does anyone know why the newsletter has
been discontinued? Does anyone have any information regarding
the current administration, activities, etc. of the museum?







UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by
Errol Bruce-Knapp

UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

'Strange Days...Indeed' - available 'live' via
Windows Media Player 10:00 Eastern, Saturday nights at:
http://cfrb.com/

Coming soon..... The Virtually Strange Nework









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   Dec > Dec 3

                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:35:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:18:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:36:03 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: chris aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>Subject: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? III
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Scientific discoveries have always caused trouble
 >>for dogmatic Church teachings. In Bruno's time,
 >>astronomy was a threat to the teachings of the
 >>Church.

 ><snip>

 >Dear Kelly,

 >Bruno was not a 16th century "ufologist" because he never saw,
 >nor claimed anyone ever saw, nor even mentioned or hinted at the
 >existence of, UFOs.

 >Unless we regard planets, stars and comets as UFOs, that is.

 >Furthermore, his ideas on the plurality of life in the universe
 >were not entirely original, just as the earth was not believed
 >by everyone to be flat.

...yeah, but as one willing to pay freight for saying what
needed to be said, contributing to a very necessary marketplace
of fertile ideas, and providing tap roots of alternative
thinking as a bulwark against the thinking of convenient
religious fundamentalism (?)... he didn't do bad. <g>. Ahead of
his time, he was the soul of individualism, a living example of
its validity, and a courageous spirit worthy of no small amount
of grateful appreciation.

He was a whistle-blower, and we need those people like them or
not...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.








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                           Re: IUFOMRC? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:40:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:21:02 -0500
Subject: Re: IUFOMRC? - Friedman


 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: IUFOMRC
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:53:24 -0800

 >Regarding the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell:

 >http://www.iufomrc.org/

 >I noticed that the last newsletter posted on the website is from
 >June 2001. I also noticed a statement that the:

 >"Millionth Visitor in Museum's 10 year history 'expected' before
 >the 2001 Roswell UFO festival in July."

 >It appears the website has not been updated for a long time.
 >Does anyone know why? Does anyone know why the newsletter has
 >been discontinued? Does anyone have any information regarding
 >the current administration, activities, etc. of the museum?

Why not contact the museum? I was at the Museum in both early
and late July, and had conversations with 2 people from the
Museum this past week. 505-625-1907. Director is Julie Shuster.

The millionth visitor was clocked on June 29.

In late July we filmed material there for a Canadian Documentary
'Stanton T. Friedman IS Real!', Redstar Films. Hopefully it will
be broadcast on the Canadian Space Channel early in 2002.

There have been some changes in the board of directors. Still
going strong.Calling should obtain answers.

Stan Friedman









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                  Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:59:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:23:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:09:01 EST
 >Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Major homework, very well done! Lots of progress!

First, we're now all agreed that it's important to describe the
sighted object as small, about the size of White's hand,
estimated at 40 feet away (well within the range of
steoreoscopic eyeball vision). This is a major improvement over
existing descriptions of the event as shown all over the WWW.

Now, what were the conditions during the sighting? We've also
converged on some consensus. Assuming it was near the peak of
the high-altitude flight, it was in a near-vacuum (but not
orbital-altitude vacuum), with a low horizontal velocity but
still some horizontal velocity (to be further elaborated but
higher than values I initially suggested)) that was more than an
order of magnitude less than natural meteors. The spacecraft was
in free attitude, it could point in any desired direction under
control of the maneuvering thrusters.

I presume we've all seen the photograph(s) released. Shows a dot
near the horizon.

Now to elaborate on the potential vehicle-derived sources of
candidate objects. Ice remains a tempting candidate because it
forms where tankagae and plumbing was exposed to air pre-drop --
this includes tanks and aft engine-related plumbing. Vehicle
structural elements such as insulation patches also may shake
loose but they'd be noticed post-flight as being gone. Other
suggestions...

Lastly, the post-flight comments (and even long-after
interviews) with flight crews are bound to be important.

Rudiak's done good, no doubt about it. He seems resentful and
confrontational about being made to do the homework, but
what-the-hey _he's_ the guy asserting there is _no_ prosaic
explanation, there's bound to be some work involved. And some
hurt feelings. The price of progress.....











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                  Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Carpenter

From: Joel Carpenter <carpenter_joel@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:17:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:25:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Carpenter


Can anyone clarify what the date of the UFO sighting was? Which
flight was it?


Joel Carpenter









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               CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast - 12-05-01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:42:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:30:49 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast - 12-05-01


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December 3, 2001

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=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001

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   Dec > Dec 3

                            Re: IUFOMRC? - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:05:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:32:43 -0500
Subject: Re: IUFOMRC? - Lewis


 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: IUFOMRC
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:53:24 -0800

 >Regarding the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell:

 >http://www.iufomrc.org/

 >I noticed that the last newsletter posted on the website is from
 >June 2001. I also noticed a statement that the:

 >"Millionth Visitor in Museum's 10 year history 'expected' before
 >the 2001 Roswell UFO festival in July."

 >It appears the website has not been updated for a long time.
 >Does anyone know why? Does anyone know why the newsletter has
 >been discontinued? Does anyone have any information regarding
 >the current administration, activities, etc. of the museum?


I don't know the answers to your questions but spoke to someone
associated with the place a couple of months ago.

You could give em a call or email them or snail mail them:

114 N. Main Street
PO Box 2221
Roswell, NM 88202-2221

Phone: (505) 625-9495
Fax: (505) 625-1907

E-Mail: IUFOMRC@IUFOMRC.org










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               Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 324 - Italian UFO

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:21:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:34:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 324 - Italian UFO


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 324 -  6 SEPTEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- August: The Italian Wave Continues
- The Monselice Case
- Hessdalen: The Italian Mission Returns Home
- French TV Documentary


August: The Italian Wave Continues

As expected, the month of August saw no let-up in the wave of
sightings which hit Italy, since the month of June.

Giuseppe Stilo has disseminated a preliminary list of reports of
sightings received or gathered by the Italian Center for Ufology
Studies and relative to this past July: it covers 67 observation
cases  which points not only to a continuance but an increase in
the ongoing, small summer UFO wave  and this despite the fact
that, meanwhile, the number of incidents reported by the mass
media has been diminishing (55 newspaper clippings gathered by
Eco della Stampa during the month of July, compared with 86 in
June).

The sightings continue to be widespread throughout the
Peninsula; and although the northern regions are maintaining a
slight lead, the central and southern zones no longer trail far
behind in the statistics. As always, nocturnal nights prevail;
but in July, there occurred 11 daylight objects, 8 close
encounters and 3 cases captured on videotape.

In the meantime, the list of reports relative to the month of
June has been updated, reflecting an increase in number from 54
to 62.

[Report by Giuseppe Stilo.]


The Monselice Case

Among the sightings of last month, that having had a major
impact occurred on the evening of 3 August in Monselice (Padua)
where, at about 11:15 p.m., two women sitting on a bench in a
square observed an enormous four-sided object, described as
being as large as the square itself, that arrived noiselessly,
descended from the sky, and stopped a few meters above the
ground directly over the witnesses.

The object, measuring side-on approximately 10 meters in length,
had rounded edges and many lights; at the structure=92s center,
there was a ring of intense light, with a little red light in
the middle. One of the women fled in terror and hid behind a
small statue of the Madonna, while the other remained paralyzed
on the bench and continued staring at the thing. Suddenly,
however, the latter rose and took a few steps forward, until she
was directly beneath the object: she gestured strangely with her
arms and made some noises. Her friend continued to call to her
screaming and finally convinced her friend to join her behind
the statue.

After a few seconds, the strange metallic platform, with a kind
of =93muffled noise,=94 eventually split up into three parts which
then shot away at an incredible speed: two luminous discs in one
direction, one multicolored one in the other. When their screams
caught the attention of another woman who was looking out onto
her garden, the latter caught sight only of the two frightened
and semi-concealed witnesses.

But there is a third witness, who was approximately 500 meters
away and simultaneously saw in the sky a =93stupendous and
intensely-colored=94 square-shaped object, which she stopped to
watch for its =93extremely beautiful colors: white, red, yellow
and green.=94

The two protagonists of the story remained greatly unsettled
from their experience: one of them didn=92t manage to sleep at
night for a week or more, remained in a state of shock and
speechless, and could not be located for a number of days.

An inquest was conducted by the Carabinieri, and the case was
picked up by various Ufologists who issued varied and
contrasting statements. The Pordenonese Antonio Chiumiento
affirmed that it had to do with an extraterrestrial object which
was going to attempt to abduct one of the two women. Instead,
The International UFO Center maintained that the cause likely
was a top-secret American airplane. The Venice contingent of the
National UFO Center finally reported its detection of a slight
trace of radioactivity at the spot, leading to alarm among the
population and the intervention of the Regional Environmental
Protection Agency, which alternately refuted the presence of any
radioactivity. Subsequently, both the CUN and CUI gave advance
notice of respective conferences to be held right in Monselice
in September, but on different dates. The newspapers thus were
able to closely follow the irony of the seriousness and
competency on the part of the Ufologists.

[Il Gazzettino, Padua edition, and Il Mattino di Padova, 17-30
August; UfoItalia, 23-30 August; collaboration by Roberto
Labanti, Matteo Leone, Alessandro Lu=E8, Dario Paganini and Gildo
Person=E8.]


Hessdalen: The Italian Mission Returns Home

After four weeks, the Italian mission came to an end on 22
August in the Hessdalen Valley of Norway, where sightings of
strange lights in the sky have occurred repeatedly for twenty
years.

The expedition, conducted in collaboration with the National
Council of Research Activities, had the goal of acquiring
optical data on the phenomenon, along with electromagnetic
instrument data gathered by the CNR; was led by the
astrophysicist Massimo Teodorani; and was organized and financed
(for the second consecutive year) by the Italian Committee for
Project Hessdalen, a group created in Bologna last year for this
specific aim and coordinated by Renzo Cabassi.

The unfavorable atmospheric conditions notwithstanding, various
video and photographic captures of the phenomenon were acquired
this year, as well, thus allowing both tools and photometric and
spectroscopic techniques to be put to the test. The data
gathered will be analyzed and interpreted in the next month and
finally summarized in a preliminary technical article to be
published in the future on the CIPH Website
(http://www.itacomm.net/PH/).

Also participating in the expedition were Simona Righini,
graduate in Astronomy, and Flavio Gori, of NASA=92s Project
Inspire, who worked alongside engineers Stelio Montebugnoli,
Jader Monari, Marco Poloni and Andrea Cremonini of the
Radio/Astronomical Medicine Station (Bologna) of the National
Council of Research Activities.

[Il Tempo, Il Gazzettino, La Gazzetta di Modena and other
dailies, 23 August; Heos, 24 August; Panorama, 7 September;
UfoItalia, 23 August-6 September; collaboration by Renzo
Cabassi, Gildo Person=E8 and Roberto Labanti.]


French TV Documentary

The UFO world in France has been reverberating for weeks in
anticipation of the airing on Sunday, 9 September on National TV
Channel 2 of the documentary, =93OVNIs, le secret am=E9ricain,=94
(=93UFOs: The American Secret=94), the work of the French journalist
French Vincent Gielly, who during two years of investigating has
interviewed numerous experts, viewed archives and consulted
documents around the globe.

The clamor also derives from the fact that the documentary was
preview-broadcast exclusively to the French Senate last 24
April, arousing a certain interest in the objective and historic
piece. The documentary is actually modeled after the life of the
astronomer/Ufologist Joseph Allen Hynek.

[Ovni-Sciences, 25-30 April.]

Among the Ufologists interviewed (Americans, overall), there are
some of the most notable names on the American scene. Already
arousing particular interest is news of the inclusion of a
French counter-espionage official who is actively involved with
the subject of UFOs. The program has already garnered positive
reviews from numerous newspapers on the other side of the Alps,
and followers hope that this signals a turnabout in the way that
television handles the subject in their country.

[Le Monde, Le Nouvel Observateur, 1 September; Ovni-Sciences,
2-6 September.]

Even before France, meanwhile, a preliminary part of the
documentary was aired in Italian on Swiss Television Channel 1
on Tuesday, 4 September.

[Collaboration by Stefania Genovese, Corrado Guarisco and
Maurizio Verga.]


Collaborators on this edition: Renzo Cabassi, Stefania Genovese,
Corrado Guarisco, Roberto Labanti, Matteo Leone, Dario Paganini,
Gildo Person=E8, Giuseppe Stilo and Maurizio Verga.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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   Dec > Dec 3

                              More On The X-15

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:03:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:37:47 -0500
Subject: More On The X-15


Highly recommended: 'X-15: The NASA Mission Reports,
Incorporating files from the USAF' Compiled from the archives
and edited by Robert Godwin (Apogee Books, 1971, 2000) (Includes
a CDROM of movies and images)

Contains _everything_ you always wanted to know about the X-15
but were too (whatever) to ask.

My (impossible) childhood dream was to be a test pilot and fly
the X-15. I built many models of it. There's an X-15 mounted in
front of the visitor center at Edwards. (They give a _great_
tour.) Too cool.


Zoomin Purrrs...
wac









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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:20:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:40:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:49:40 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:56:36 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-60/ch-4.html

 >Wow, neat chart, different than all the others I've seen. Let's
 >try to figure out which is trustworthy. But you found a
 >close-to-original source, so your assumptions are defendable.
 >Good work.

I've never seen a paragraph so drenched with real and implied
fallacy. Patronizing, presumptuous, and pontificating it is an
appeal to a nebulous and evaporating authority, an implied
either/or of the self-serving contrived conditional, and only
more unconvincing because of its obvious narrow focus, its
dogmatic adherence to old world paradigms, and its (even well
meaning) fundamental dishonesty.

Yes, dishonest. You refute, you must admit, the (subsequently
inevitable!) fringe without seriously addressing the 20% that
validates that fringe and makes it possible, at all. The lack
of serious attention that the UFO generates is testament to the
validity of the UFO because UFOs are _obvious_ given the
preponderance of historical evidence, photographic evidence,
physical evidence, anecdotal evidence, and my personal evidence.
If just 20% (2%!) of that evidence is good... it still points to
something worthy of serious treatment, _passionate_ study, and
perhaps marvelous application. You stand, sir, in the way of the
'reach' that our collective 'grasp' aspires to...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected! <...because I said I would...>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
skepti-bunkies.









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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:42:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:42:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Jones


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:53:05 -0600

Evening Errol, all,

I'm not one for being bitchy - sorry don't know the American word
for making biting comments.

 >Wow, neat chart, different than all the others I've seen. Let's
 >try to figure out which is trustworthy. But you found a
 >close-to-original source, so your assumptions are defendable.
 >Good work.

<snippet from second Oberg post>:

 >But at least you should interview primary witnesses, if you want
 >to do a real investigation.

Is it me or does these two emails read like Mr Oberg is being
condescending and supercilious?

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









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                       Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:57:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:44:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez


 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:08:03 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 >>>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:21 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>... But religion assumes a
 >>>transcendent being in control. What if humanity were to suddenly
 >>>come face to face with material biological beings who seem to be
 >>>in control, or at least have much greater capa bility than we?
 >>>Think about it.

 >>Hello Bruce,

 >>This and all your foregoing are quite true and relevant.
 >>However:

 >>>Do YOU want to announce the proof of UFO reality to the world...
 >>>and be responsible for the consequences? ...>

 >>ist, in _UFOs Are Real...Here's the Proof_ and elsewhere. Now's
 >>not the time to stop! You needn't worry about any abrupt
 >>immediate consequences, since the self-cover is still so strong
 >>that no one individual can breach it. Yet, every individual's
 >>s>incere efforts at breaching it helps in some small measure,
 >>s>ome more than others, as it does have a positive effect in
 >>g>etting out the truth.

 >>But those parts of the world that aren't interested in listening
 >>to the evidence and truth don't have to do so, so no one person
 >>can be responsible for the consequences of when governments
 >t>hemselves, especially that of the USA, eventually find they
 >>have to disclose the truth. By that time, all you competent
 >>ufologists in the future, now and in the past half century, will
 >>have done your jobs so that the societal consequences will not
 >>be as severe as otherwise.>

 >Yes.... yes.... I realize that few people take what I say seriously
 >(few other than knowledgable ufologists) and so I don't expect to
 >bring civilization down upon my head.

Hi Jim, hi Bruce, All,

Bruce writes:

 >But what if the Presidents of the USA and FSU (Former Soviet
 >Union) and The Pope and Walter Cronkite (former CBS news anchor)
 >were to all stand up before a press conference and say what I
 >(and numerous opther before me) have said.

 >That _would_ cause a major fluctuation in the history of
 >civilization.... may be even leading to the destruction of
 >civilization as we know it.

 >Would that result in something better or worse.... That is the
 >Question!

Nothing wrong with people being told the truth. Ever.

I gotta tell ya, as I look around at the mixture of human parts
and rubble in my own hometown, and as I read the daily "news"
reports about; war, and threats of war, how 3,000,000 currently
living beings are expected to die from AIDS this year, about
people so deeply crazy that they can justify in their own heads
strapping C4 to their butts and taking out as many innocent
people as they can while children dance in the streets
celebrating the bloody making of their political points, and on
and on like that.

Maybe the destruction of civilization "as we know it" is just
what the doctor ordered! I have no idea what it would take to
awaken the numbers of people required to create the necessary
(to our collective survival) changes, but a dose of the Truth
couldn't hurt anything 'as we know it'.

Finding out the truth about something allows learning to happen,
as well as healing. Society "as we know it" is in deep poo-doo.
I just don't see how learning the truth that we are not alone,
or even the biggest fish in the pond, can hurt us - over the
long haul.

I want all my progeny and their progeny to grow up in a 'sane'
society. It's the only way that humanity will ever be free to
fully enjoy and explore its own potential. That's not going to
happen as long as the truth of the very world/universe we live
in remains hermetically sealed, hidden, and the private property
of a tyrannical, privileged few.

Time for a whole _Revolution_ of Truth. Damn the torpedoes, and
double-damn civilization "as we know it." I've had a belly-full
of "as we know it". Haven't you?

Regards to all,

John Velez









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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:08:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:49:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:36:03 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: chris aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Bruno was not a 16th century "ufologist" because he never saw,
 >nor claimed anyone ever saw, nor even mentioned or hinted at the
 >existence of, UFOs.

 >Unless we regard planets, stars and comets as UFOs, that is.

 >Furthermore, his ideas on the plurality of life in the universe
 >were not entirely original, just as the earth was not believed
 >by everyone to be flat.

I found this post particularly interesting since I ran across
Bruno's name over the weekend in a book entitled The Hermetica.

Apparently Bruno was in love with the rediscovered works
dedicated - or partially written by - the Greek/Egyptian god of
wisdom, Hermes/Thoth, who is rumored to be an Atlantean Priest.
Of course, he is also rumored to be Satan (by Crowley) and Enoch
(By Jewish mystics).

I have my own suspicions that the "writings of the watchers"
which Noah's sons were forbidden to read in the Book of Jubilees
are Hermetical as well. Wouldn't it be great if these works are
actually written by an alien race who came down from the stars
and gave mankind these wise works so that they could advance in
knowledge? Maybe man is sitting on proof of alien visitation
after all...


Just a thought,

Jeff Behnke
jeff@paranormalnews.com








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                              More On The X-15

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:03:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:37:47 -0500
Subject: More On The X-15


Highly recommended: 'X-15: The NASA Mission Reports,
Incorporating files from the USAF' Compiled from the archives
and edited by Robert Godwin (Apogee Books, 1971, 2000) (Includes
a CDROM of movies and images)

Contains _everything_ you always wanted to know about the X-15
but were too (whatever) to ask.

My (impossible) childhood dream was to be a test pilot and fly
the X-15. I built many models of it. There's an X-15 mounted in
front of the visitor center at Edwards. (They give a _great_
tour.) Too cool.


Zoomin Purrrs...
wac









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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Wright

From: Bruce Lanier Wright <magnus@io.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:17:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:44:37 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Wright


 >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:03:14 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: More On The X-15

 >Highly recommended: 'X-15: The NASA Mission Reports,
 >Incorporating files from the USAF' Compiled from the archives
 >and edited by Robert Godwin (Apogee Books, 1971, 2000) (Includes
 >a CDROM of movies and images)

 >Contains _everything_ you always wanted to know about the X-15
 >but were too (whatever) to ask.

 >My (impossible) childhood dream was to be a test pilot and fly
 >the X-15. I built many models of it. There's an X-15 mounted in
 >front of the visitor center at Edwards. (They give a _great_
 >tour.) Too cool.


Isn't that the X-1E?  White, stubby?


Bruce W.
X-plane freak
--









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                           Re: IUFOMRC? - Chapman

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:01:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:55:13 -0500
Subject: Re: IUFOMRC? - Chapman


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: IUFOMRC?
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:40:25 -0400

 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: IUFOMRC
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:53:24 -0800

 >>Regarding the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell:

 >>http://www.iufomrc.org/

 >>I noticed that the last newsletter posted on the website is from
 >>June 2001. I also noticed a statement that the:

 >>"Millionth Visitor in Museum's 10 year history 'expected' before
 >>the 2001 Roswell UFO festival in July."

 >>It appears the website has not been updated for a long time.
 >>Does anyone know why? Does anyone know why the newsletter has
 >>been discontinued? Does anyone have any information regarding
 >>the current administration, activities, etc. of the museum?

 >Why not contact the museum? I was at the Museum in both early
 >and late July, and had conversations with 2 people from the
 >Museum this past week. 505-625-1907. Director is Julie Shuster.


I did contact the IUFOMRC by email, and got a very nice response
from Ms. Shuster. I posted my question to this List in order to
get different, 'outsider' perspectives.












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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:02:02 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:57:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Young


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:20:48 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:40:13 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

 >snip>

 >The lack of serious attention that the UFO generates is testament
 >to the validity of the UFO because UFOs are _obvious_ given the
 >preponderance of historical evidence, photographic evidence,
 >physical evidence, anecdotal evidence, and my personal evidence.

Al:

A beautiful example of the irrationality of the believer. Black
equals white. No interest by serious science _must mean_, gosh,
that the evidence is irrefutable.

Please point us to the physical evidence for the existance of
flying saucers which you mentioned. Remember, now, since it is
physical evidence we must be able to go and see it.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                  Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:13:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:03:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:59:18 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:09:01 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Major homework, very well done! Lots of progress!


...Though it remains to be seen how it proves _your_ point, and
what precipitates this officious miasma of unjustified
patronization you exude like Disco fog?

 >First, we're now all agreed that it's important to describe the
 >sighted object as small, about the size of White's hand,
 >estimated at 40 feet away (well within the range of
 >steoreoscopic eyeball vision). This is a major improvement over
 >existing descriptions of the event as shown all over the WWW.

 >Now, what were the conditions during the sighting? We've also
 >converged on some consensus. Assuming it was near the peak of
 >the high-altitude flight, it was in a near-vacuum (but not
 >orbital-altitude vacuum), with a low horizontal velocity but
 >still some horizontal velocity (to be further elaborated but
 >higher than values I initially suggested)) that was more than an
 >order of magnitude less than natural meteors. The spacecraft was
 >in free attitude, it could point in any desired direction under
 >control of the maneuvering thrusters.

This is some of the most artful squirming I have ever I have
ever had the discomfiting privilege to read. I was almost
entertained, certainly amused, but not a little embarrassed for
you.

 >I presume we've all seen the photograph(s) released. Shows a dot
 >near the horizon.

 >Now to elaborate on the potential vehicle-derived sources of
 >candidate objects.

<ROFL>!

 >Ice remains a tempting candidate because it
 >forms where tankagae and plumbing was exposed to air pre-drop --
 >this includes tanks and aft engine-related plumbing. Vehicle
 >structural elements such as insulation patches also may shake
 >loose but they'd be noticed post-flight as being gone. Other
 >suggestions...

"Ice remains a tempting candidate..."  I'm sure you find it very tempting,
very reassuring, very comforting... otherwise...{...cue the moog}.

 >Lastly, the post-flight comments (and even long-after
 >interviews) with flight crews are bound to be important.

 >Rudiak's done good, no doubt about it.

...and wonderful! You invent the seeming agreement of a doting
parent that R is spot on in his logic, science, and
rationality...

 >He seems resentful and
 >confrontational about being made to do the homework,

... then contrive to invalidate same with the suggestion that
_he's_ being small, piqued, and petty... when he is only merely
exasperated with _your_ lack of the aforementioned logic,
science, and rationality... Additionally, you say this like he's
proved _your_ contention, he didn't... he clearly and
convincingly refuted you every step of the way... and I'm being
more than fair.

 >but
 >what-the-hey _he's_ the guy asserting there is _no_ prosaic
 >explanation, there's bound to be some work involved. And some
 >hurt feelings.
 >The price of progress.....

Which you have in no way advanced here... you only provide
further assurance that there's not a prosaic explanation for
_some_ of the stuff, and if there's not a prosaic explanation
for _any_ of the stuff, that's a good reason to question ALL of
_your_ stuff, as you proclaim in word, thought, and deed that
there is _no_ stuff... <g>. There's lottsa' stuff...

And "The price of progress....." Indeed.

What progress in the last fifty years, when _quality_ people in
at the very beginning were giving _every_ indication that UFOs
were something to seriously and ardently study... A UFO
Manhattan project... certainly as a way to facilitate quantum
levels of new understanding in a science so otherwise adored...
why do you help kill that chance for quantum scientific and
social advancement, Mr. Oberg?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Dec > Dec 4

                   Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:27:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:39:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:02:02 EST
 >Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:20:48 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>snip>

 >>The lack of serious attention that the UFO generates is testament
 >>to the validity of the UFO because UFOs are _obvious_ given the
 >>preponderance of historical evidence, photographic evidence,
 >>physical evidence, anecdotal evidence, and my personal evidence.

 >Al:

I'm not partial to "Al", Mr. Young... Alfred, or Mr. Lehmberg, please.

 >
 >A beautiful example of the irrationality of the believer.

Perhaps! But then you trot out a much more fetching example of
the suspect rationality of the skeptibunky with unsupported
proclamation, base refusal to accept the premise of my argument,
and purposely misstating in rebuttal what it was I said.

 >Black
 >equals white. No interest by serious science _must mean_, gosh,
 >that the evidence is irrefutable.

No, Mr. Young, this unclever twist on the fallacy of either/or
won't wash at this station. UFOs are patently obvious given the
masses of historical, photographic, physical, anecdotal , and
personal evidence. In the face of that evidence the lack of
interest by you and a complacent mainstream _is_ inexplicable,
unless that lack of interest is by design, of course, to
facilitate an agenda that is threatened by a reality of UFOs?
Are you threatened by UFOs, Mr. Young?

The lack of serious interest from the mainstream (which only
_includes_ your bad science, Mr. Young) about this obvious and
far reaching phenomenon speaks volumes to me regarding the
validity of the phenomenon... IOW, management doesn't want the
workers to know that IT knows that it pays them crap. The
mainstream's admission might mean that it wouldn't be the
mainstream anymore. Moreover -- there _is_ no black and white,
there is only color, absence of color, and various shades of
gray.

 >Please point us to the physical evidence for the existance of
 >flying saucers which you mentioned. Remember, now, since it is
 >physical evidence we must be able to go and see it.

Maybe, if you ask nicely, Stanton Friedman will enumerate some
of these for you, AGAIN... But aware that your irrational fear
of the non-prosaic presumes that you are unlikely to even ask: A
recent panel headed by Stanford University physicist Peter
Sturrock has decided that there is enough unexplained physical
evidence to warrant serious study. You could read that report...

"Remember, now..." physical evidence _includes_ such things as
photographs, effects on automobiles and aircraft equipment,
injuries to plants and witnesses, or radar reports, and is not
_limited_ to flying saucer parts, mummified limbs and organs of
extra terrestrials, or ray guns... although that kind of
evidence likely exists too. Physical evidence abounds, Mr.
Young, but only for the interested, only for the real scientist,
and only for the brave.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~ EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros
URL. http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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                  Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:43:26 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:40:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:02:02 EST
 >Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:20:48 -0600
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:40:13 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>snip>

 >>The lack of serious attention that the UFO generates is testament
 >>to the validity of the UFO because UFOs are _obvious_ given the
 >>preponderance of historical evidence, photographic evidence,
 >>physical evidence, anecdotal evidence, and my personal evidence.

 >Al:

 >A beautiful example of the irrationality of the believer. Black
 >equals white. No interest by serious science _must mean_, gosh,
 >that the evidence is irrefutable.

Dear Young Bob, Alfred, Listers and of course, EBK:

I must open this post with my usual caveat, "I do not butt in
where I don't belong, for I should never be there." Having said
that, let me welcome you back from your sojourn into the world
of the ECM. We trust you arrived safely, without being abducted
or hijacked.

Of course I disagree with your super and very cilious remark
above, as the physical evidence is there for anyone to see for
themselves. Just look up. We do. And occasionally you will see
something which is not supposed to be there. Not supposed to
move the way it does. Totally weird.

If that ever happens to you, I would be there, like an alien in
the wall. I would observe you attempting to apply all of that
marvelous skepticallity (I invented that word, live with it); I
would see the expression on your face, the lips moving silently,
the eyes going wide, the brow furrowing, extremities shaking ...
I sure would give a lot to see that.

Of course, lacking all this, I could just Sip a Grip and get the
very same reaction. And as for the vibration, you would be
shocked at what Dr. G. has accomplished with his new Pia Doll,
anatomically correct, of course.

You know, some skeptics, having seen the physical evidence, have
been known to faint dead away, brain in the Nile, in denial,
sorry ... attempting to shut down whilst the thing gets it's
scheiss together and reboots.

 >Please point us to the physical evidence for the existance of
 >flying saucers which you mentioned. Remember, now, since it is
 >physical evidence we must be able to go and see it.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

Heck, Al, if I were you ... never mind.

Love and vilcomen back,

Jim









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                    Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Geiger

From: Bob Geiger <bgeiger@cybernex.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:54:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:49:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Geiger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:02:02 EST
 >Subject: Filer's Files #48 - 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:20:48 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>snip>

 >>The lack of serious attention that the UFO generates is testament
 >>to the validity of the UFO because UFOs are _obvious_ given the
 >>preponderance of historical evidence, photographic evidence,
 >>physical evidence, anecdotal evidence, and my personal evidence.

 >Al:

 >A beautiful example of the irrationality of the believer. Black
 >equals white. No interest by serious science _must mean_, gosh,
 >that the evidence is irrefutable.

 >Please point us to the physical evidence for the existance of
 >flying saucers which you mentioned. Remember, now, since it is
 >physical evidence we must be able to go and see it.


Mr Young,

Is your reasoning such that if I report seeing an ice cube on my
kitchen counter and you happen to come to investigate, perhaps
after the cube has melted or even the water evaporated off the
counter top, you would conclude the cube did not exist?

To quote the bard; there are more things in heaven and earth, Mr
Young, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.









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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:50:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 00:15:48 -0500
Subject: Re:  More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:03:14 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: More On The X-15

 >Highly recommended: 'X-15: The NASA Mission Reports,
 >Incorporating files from the USAF' Compiled from the archives
 >and edited by Robert Godwin (Apogee Books, 1971, 2000) (Includes
 >a CDROM of movies and images)


I just talked by phone with Bill Dana, one of four surviving
X-15 pilots, and recently retired as director of NASa's Dryden
Flight Research Center at Edwards AFB.

He recalled White's story well. "Bob was concerned, at first, he
thought he was flying through a field of these objects going by
his window," he told me. "Turned out, it was ice coming off
something -- an APU exhaust, I recall, or some cryogenic
transporter." He gave me the phone numbers of some flight
managers who also worked the program and I'll be calling them
soon.


JimO










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                     Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:48:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 00:18:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Maccabee


 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:57:28 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III


 >>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:08:03 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 >>>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

<snip>

 >>Would that result in something better or worse.... That is the
 >>Question!

 >Nothing wrong with people being told the truth. Ever.

<snip>

 >Time for a whole _Revolution_ of Truth. Damn the torpedoes, and
 >double-damn civilization "as we know it." I've had a belly-full
 >of "as we know it". Haven't you?

Have you gotten ahold of my Abduction book yet? Read the chapter
'Question Everything' (if nothing else).









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                  Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:07:29 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 00:27:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy - Oberg
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:59:18 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:09:01 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Misunderstanding The X-15 Ersatz-UFO Controversy
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Major homework, very well done! Lots of progress!

Oberg's usual patronizing, and also trying to tap dance his way
out of the corner he painted himself into. It was his
responsiblity to defend his own hypothesis with clear arguments
and _accurate_ information. His critics should not have to do
his own homework for him.

Instead he made statements about the X-15 that were so grossly
erroneous, no real aerospace expert should ever have made them,
no matter how rusty his memory may have been. They were more
like embarrassingly erroneous. One wonders if he is even writing
his own material anymore.

Here are some of the bone-headed errors he (or his shill) made:

1. He confused net velocity with vertical velocity and said both
were the same, meaning that the X-15 would have been flying
straight up. In reality, it would have been angled up (at less
than 30 degrees) to fly a parabolic ballistic trajectory, and
thus with a very large velocity component remaining in the
horizontal direction.

2. He claimed this maximum velocity for Bob White's flight was
3600 mph. In reality, it was Mach 6.04 or 4070 mph, which I
determined after only a few minutes search on the Net. White's
_horizontal_ velocity would have been in the neighborhood of
3600 mph, but not his net velocity. Resolving vectors like
velocity into horizontal and vertical components is introductory
physics material. What's Oberg's excuse for not getting it
right?

3. He claimed the engines cut out at 25 miles. Oberg's own
posted references and excerpted material, which he apparently
didn't even both to read, stated that these high-altitude
flights had engine cut-outs typically from 160,000 to 200,000
feet, or 30 to 38 miles, not 25 miles.

4. He stated the X-15 then coasted "straight up" (using the
erroneous horizontal velocity in place of the vertical velocity)
another 40 miles. Even assuming the erroneous 25 mile cutoff and
"straight up" flying, that would have taken the X-15 to 65
miles. White's flight actually reached an altitude of 60 miles
(again, basic factual information). This isn't even introductory
physics. It's a grade school math error.

5. He stated that at maximum altitude, the X-15 would have a
velocity of only a few hundred feet per second at most.
Completely wrong. At engine cutout, White's X-15 _horizontal_
velocity would have been around 3600 mph. Because of the thin
atmosphere, only a small percentage of this would have been lost
during glide. This was again proven from one of Oberg's own
references, which included a graph with a typical mission
profile demonstrating that even after glide, the craft was
hypersonic. White's X-15 was probably traveling in excess of
3000 mph at maximum altitude, more than an order of magnitude
greater than what Oberg claimed. (In fact, if the X-15 really
had gone "straight up," it would have had zero horizontal
velocity at maximum altitude, and then come straight down.)

This littany of errors comes from a man who proudly claims to be
an aerospace expert. Furthermore, he bragged here on Updates
about how he was a man "obsessed" with getting at the truth. For
years he has ridiculed the "gullible UFO believers" and derided
them for their alleged lack of factual information and
scientific rigor.

But look at his shoddy performance here: no facts, no science,
just error on top of error, some of it no doubt deliberate,
trying to bolster his shaky "ice crystal" theory. He doesn't
sound like much of an expert at all nor someone obsessed with
getting at the truth.

On top of all of those, he smugly congratulates himself for
getting others to finally do his homework. Good grief! The man
has no shame.

 >First, we're now all agreed that it's important to describe the
 >sighted object as small, about the size of White's hand,

What's with this patronizing royal "we" bit? I think it's
probably agreed by all that White _described_, it as looking
close and small, but it is _not_ agreed that it _necessarily_
was so. White's perception of distance and size could have been
in error, particularly in this environment lacking in most
normal distance and size cues. Conceivably the object could been
much further away and thus much larger.

As an illustration, about a year ago I was driving across the
desert (near Edwards AFB as a matter of fact) as it was getting
dark, looked to the side of the road, and perceived what looked
like a small bright light about a block away pacing the car.

UFO close encounter? No, all along I had the sense it was a
visual illusion of some kind. Something didn't seem quite right.
My eyes felt strained. After a few seconds, the world seemed to
snap back to normal. What seemed like a relatively close light
following the car turned out to be a headlight of a car off on a
side road in the desert several miles distant.

What happened? Probably I was tired, it was getting dark, it was
open desert with few visual cues, and my eyes temporarily
misalligned and caused an error in my depth perception.

Now consider the flight conditions on the X-15. The first few
minutes were a bone-rattling ride (as graphically described by
Bob White himself, who said that even after engine cut-off, the
X-15 rang like a bell). During acceleration, the pilot was
pressed back at 4 g's. Even holding on to the flight controls
would take a lot of exertion. Heart rates sometimes shot up to
200 beats per minute. A few minutes of this would be exhausting,
like running a 4 minute mile.

After engine cutoff, during the ballistic glide phase, the pilot
would be in a 0-g environment. This is known to be disorienting,
since the inner ear orienting mechanisms are now no longer
function. The pilot can no longer tell up from down.

This is a near vacuum. There are stars and the earth below, but
no nearby reference details. The sky is black, or nearly so.
There is no atmospheric haze to help judge distance. There is no
light scatter. There is no soft shadowing. Contrast is high,
shadows are harsh. Anything in shadow is black and invisible.
Most of the normal depth cues are missing up there.

So White's observation occurred when he was probably exhausted
from the physical exertion, possibly disoriented by the 0-g
environment, and lacking in most normal distance cues. This is a
situation ripe for possible misperception of distance, just like
I was temporarily fooled in a somewhat analagous situation.

I'm not saying he did misjudge the distance, but it could very
well have under the circumstances.

 >estimated at 40 feet away (well within the range of
 >steoreoscopic eyeball vision).

I agree, definitely within the range of normal stereoscopic vision, which
White probably had. But is this the cue White necessary used in estimating
distance and size? Even if it was, his stereoscopic perception could have
been in error, as I've tried to argue above. His physical state and
environment were not normal.

 >This is a major improvement over
 >existing descriptions of the event as shown all over the WWW.

One of the few things that I do agree with Oberg on is that the quote wasn't
complete and thus potentially misleading. However, the more complete quote
in the original Time magazine article also seems to indicate that White
thought he had seen something very unusual and worthy of comment.

I should also like to point out again, that never in all this
back and forth have I argued that White saw a "TRUFO" (as Bruce
Maccabee likes to say). I honestly can't see that what he
described sounded much like an "alien spaceship." On the other
hand, it didn't sound like much of an "ice crystal" to me
either, particularly under the conditions of the sighting. I
just don't like these pat "explanations" being thrown out that
don't make a lot of sense. Yet we're supposed to accept them or
get accused of being "gullible UFO believers."

I'm an agnostic on this sighting. I don't known what White saw.

 >Now, what were the conditions during the sighting? We've also
 >converged on some consensus. Assuming it was near the peak of
 >the high-altitude flight,

"Assuming?" Was it or wasn't it? It's Oberg's hypothesis, yet he
can't even tell us exactly where and when during the flight this
sighting occurred, which is another very important piece of
information.

Such information is not easily obtainable by us non-experts, but
Oberg is right there in Houston working for NASA. So if it
wouldn't be too much trouble, would he mind actually getting
those hard facts out of mothballs?

It's also very important do know what White and the X-15 were
doing at the time. Was he maneuvering? How was the X-15
oriented? How long was the sighting? Again these are important
pieces of factual information needed to properly evaluate his,
or any other hypothesis.

 >it was in a near-vacuum (but not
 >orbital-altitude vacuum),

It wasn't so much a collegial converging on some consensus, as
hitting Oberg with a 2 x 4, after he tried to split hairs about
this being "space" and not in the atmosphere. Yes, this was a
near-vacuum, but at the X-15 hypersonic speed, there was still
significant friction and a breeze blowing. That's a _very_
important point, one Oberg tried to sweep under the rug, by
talking of this being "space" and falsifying the actual velocity
of the craft as being only hundreds of feet per second instead
of thousands.

The effective wind, though not strong, would be sufficient to
rapidly sweep away any small, non-aerodynamic debris coming off
the craft (which would limit any sighting of such debris to only
a few seconds). It would probably also be sufficient to quickly
break up any thin sheets of ice into smaller pieces.

This is not at all the same situation as when a spacecraft is in
orbit where there is no friction worth mentioning (at least in
the short term). There would be no effective wind, and small
debris will indeed pace the spacecraft.

Hence Oberg trying to pretend that this was true "space."

 >with a low horizontal velocity but

Again notice the lack of precision here. What exactly is meant
by "a low horizontal velocity?" It sounds to me like Oberg still
trying to mince words. The speed was hypersonic, probably
somewhere between 3000 to 3500 mph.

Is this "a low horizontal velocity?" Maybe compared to orbital
speeds, but not when there is still some residual atmosphere to
cause a breeze and drag, with resulting effects on any small
debris.

 >still some horizontal velocity (to be further elaborated but
 >higher than values I initially suggested))

How about at least an order of magnitude higher, making any
friction and wind over two orders of magnitude greater? How
could a true aerospace expert and historian innocently make a
boneheaded mistake like that? Why would he have to "suggest"
some initial, highly erroneous lowball values instead of
providing the actual correct data right from the start?

And notice the continued lack of precision about the actual
speed and how he continues to try minimize what it was and its
effects on small debris. What the hell does "still some
horizontal velocity" mean? It makes it sound like the X-15 was
about to roll to a stop. This isn't scientific writing. It's the
writing of a propagandist.

 >that was more than an
 >order of magnitude less than natural meteors.

Which at this point of the discussion is irrelevant. Again there
is a lack of scientific precision here. He continues to try to
spin it to make it sound like the velocity was in some way "low"
and therefore unimportant..

The important point was that the actual hypersonic speed and
residual atmosphere is sufficient to cause a significant breeze
of air (on the order of 10-15 mph) which would be sufficient to
quickly sweep away small debris and probably break up any thin
ice sheets.

I plead guilty to initially introducing the topic of meteors
into the discussion. I did it to counter Oberg's (as usual)
imprecise language that this was like orbital "space" and not in
the atmosphere. I pointed out that meteors start to heat and
burn up at 60-70 miles, so how could he claim there wasn't any
signficant atmosphere at Bob White's 60 miles? My mea culpa was
overstating the effects of matter traveling a good order of
magnitude slower than a meteor. This was me being imprecise and
not completely thinking things through before I wrote.

 >The spacecraft was
 >in free attitude, it could point in any desired direction under
 >control of the maneuvering thrusters.

Maybe it could point in any desired direction, but what exactly
was it doing at the time of the sighting? Was it backwards,
forwards, sideways, upsidedown? Again, there is no factual
information here, just the usual vague language and handwaving.

 >I presume we've all seen the photograph(s) released. Shows a dot
 >near the horizon.

Oberg presume's wrong. The royal we collectively have not seen
the photo(s). Perhaps there is a link Oberg can direct everybody
to?

 >Now to elaborate on the potential vehicle-derived sources of
 >candidate objects. Ice remains a tempting candidate because it
 >forms where tankagae and plumbing was exposed to air pre-drop
-- >this includes tanks and aft engine-related plumbing. Vehicle
 >structural elements such as insulation patches also may shake
 >loose but they'd be noticed post-flight as being gone. Other
 >suggestions...

Paint flakes? Sheet metal? Probably more likely to hold together
than thin ice sheets and far more likely to stay attached to the
craft when it was violently shaking earlier on and hot from
fiction. Oberg still hasn't dealt with the issue of why there
would be ice left on the craft at all.

However, even more durable small debris would still have been
rapidly swept away by the residual wind. One important piece of
information that hasn't been discussed, is whether White
mentioned the object pacing the craft or rapidly disappearing to
the rear. If it was the latter, then it was probably some small
piece of debris. If not, then it was something else.

 >Lastly, the post-flight comments (and even long-after
 >interviews) with flight crews are bound to be important.

Right, something Oberg should have done before claiming the
sighting was mundane, the solution obvious and conclusive, and
arrogantly chastising the "UFO believers" for making any sort of
issue of it. The complete tape of Bob White's flight along with
data about the craft when this was all happening (where exactly
was it, how was it oriented, and exactly how fast was it going)
are all imporant pieces of information, none of it provided to
the royal us.

 >Rudiak's done good, no doubt about it. He seems resentful and
 >confrontational about being made to do the homework, but
 >what-the-hey _he's_ the guy asserting there is _no_ prosaic
 >explanation, there's bound to be some work involved. And some
 >hurt feelings. The price of progress.....

You almost got to love this guy for his chutzpah ... almost.
Oberg has basically been caught with his pants down, but he will
never admit that he totally screwed up if not deliberately and
seriously misrepresented the actual situation.

So he continues to massage both the data and his role in all
this. He tries to make himself the hero for getting me to do
_my_ homework. Hey, this was supposed to be _his_ homework! He's
like the school bully copying the class nerd's quiz, then
beating him up later for not getting all the answers right. Do
your own damn work, Jimbo.

He also chooses to misstate my position. I never said there was
no prosaic explanation. I just questioned _his_ prosaic
explanation, saying it made no sense. That triggered his series
of embarrassingly stupid and erroneous statements about the X-15
flight, such as it flying "straight up." If anybody's feelings
are hurt, it is probably his own, the aerospace expert. The
emperor has been shown to have no clothes.

However are we are now all agreed that this is the price of
progress?


David Rudiak








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 5

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.3.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:08:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:06:55 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.3.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

December 3, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
12.3.01


First Detection Made of an Extrasolar Planet's Atmosphere
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_atmosphere_011127=

-1.html

UA Student Discovers Evidence For 'Wandering' Poles, Convergence Zones
on Jupiter's Moon Europa
http://uanews.opi.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UANews.woa/wa/SRStoryDetail=

s?ArticleID=3D4574

Mars Was Once All Wet
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20011129marswet.html

Mysterious Mars: Water or No Water? Odyssey May Find Out
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_why_011127-1.html

Mars Odyssey Encounters Polar Vortex
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_vortex_011126.html

Pluto Mission Design Chosen; Must Be Ready For 2006 Launch
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/pluto_update_011129.html

Fermi's Paradox III: Zookeepers, Alien Visitors, Or Simple Life;
How Can We Explain Our Isolation?
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_fermi3_011129.html

Astronomers Recreate Billion Years in Life of Solar System to
Uncover Orbital Mystery of Giant Planets' Tiny Moons

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov01/Burns.bpf.html


Exploding Miniature Black Holes: Galaxy May Be Stuffed With Them
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/black_hole_exploding_011128.=

html

Inventor to Unveil 'Ginger' After Months of Speculation
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/12/02/ginger.unveiling/index.html

'Ginger' Buzz is Back
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/11/30/ginger.unveiled.idg/index.html


____________________________


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on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the latest
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=A9 The Eras Project, 2001








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 5

                          Filer's Files #49 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:37:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:11:31 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #49 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #49 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 5, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs have been reported in New Jersey, Maryland, Georgia,
Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, United Kingdom,
Spain, Norway, and Italy. Large areas of the Midwest and Europe
report seeing slow moving bright streaks in the sky. Satellites
continue to pick up uncorrelated targets each day that may
include UFOs.

EXPLOSIONS ON THE MOON

Astronomers observed flashes and explosions on the Moon during
the 2001 Leonid meteor storm, indicating meteoroids were hitting
the lunar surface. Like Earth, the Moon plowed through comet
Tempel-Tuttle's debris field on November 18th," says Bill Cooke
of the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. But, unlike Earth, the
Moon doesn't have an atmosphere where meteoroids harmlessly
disintegrate." Instead, lunar Leonids hit the ground and
explode. Using 8-inch telescopes equipped with video cameras,
David Dunham in Maryland and Tony Cook in Virginia independently
recorded the flash -- a double confirmation. "We estimate it was
as least as bright as a 4th magnitude star." Flashes and lights
on the Moon have been recorded for centuries. At least 6 Leonids
hitting the Moon in 1999 caused explosions bright enough to be
seen from Earth.

Reports of bright lunar Leonids two years ago puzzled many
scientists. Their calculations suggested that a Leonid hitting
the Moon would need to mass hundreds of kilograms to produce an
explosion visible through backyard telescopes. Yet there was
little evidence for such massive fragments in the Leonid debris
stream. Hundred-kilogram meteoroids hitting Earth's atmosphere
would produce sensational fireballs, brighter than any sky
watchers actually saw. Jay Melosh, a planetary scientist at the
University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Lab teamed up with
Ivan Nemtchinov, a Russian physicist skilled in computer
simulations of thermonuclear explosions. "Leonid impacts aren't
as potent as a nuclear warhead, but they are powerful. They hit
the Moon traveling 72 km/s or 160,000 mph. The energy per unit
mass in a Leonid strike is 10,000 times greater than a blast of
TNT." Using computer programs designed to study bomb blasts,
Melosh and Nemtchinov discovered that Leonids didn't have to be
so massive to produce flashes. Impactors massing only 1 to 10 kg
could do the job. because much of the ground within a few meters
of the impact point would be vaporized, and a cloud of molten
rock would billow out of a growing crater. "At first the cloud
would be opaque and very hot, between 50,000 K and 100,000 K,"
explains Melosh. Milliseconds after the initial blast, the cloud
would expand to a few meters in diameter and cool to 13,000 K.
That's the critical moment," he says, "when the vapor becomes
optically thin (transparent); then, all the photons rush out and
we can see a flash of light from Earth." Thanks to Space Weather
at http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/gallery_18nov01_page2.html
  NEW JERSEY BOOMERANG SHAPED OBJECT

NEW BRUNSWICK -- The witness reports that, "While watching the
Leonids meteor shower on November 18, 2001, I noticed a
boomerang shaped object flying directly above me at 5:05 AM."
It made no sound and had no lights. The surface appeared
smooth, with no visible engine or tailfin. I couldn't make out
the color, but it appeared flat or matte, possibly gray. The
altitude of the object is difficult to gauge but based on the
size, speed, and wingspan, from my perspective, it was larger
than a 747, traveling 300 to 600 mph at under 10,000 feet. It
looked like a giant boomerang, flat with a narrow
fuselage/wings.

MARYLAND FLYING TRIANGLES

ANNAPOLIS -- The witness set his alarm for 4:30 AM on November
18, 2001, to meet some friends to watch the Leonid meteor
shower. Going out on the balcony, I saw three meteoroids almost
immediately. I excitedly phoned my friends and when I looked
outside again, I saw two large luminous Flying Triangles over
the houses and trees. Flying in formation they headed south. At
first I related the illumination to the meteor shower, but when
I looked directly at the objects an instinct kicked in that
these were NOT shooting stars, and I was witnessing something
incredible. I live a block and a half away from the Naval
Academy and I am used to Navy flyovers, Blue Angels, etc. THIS
WAS DIFFERENT. The Flying Triangles did not project light to
the ground; they themselves were yellowish, white light. Their
edges were not sharp; they were slightly rounded with the glow
of the light. They appeared to be flying in formation - points
facing down, close together, on a diagonal. Together, they were
about the size of a half moon. Their movement was fluid and
quick and they were SILENT. I was only able to watch the
objects for 7 seconds and soon after they disappeared, I heard
a boat horn sound twice quickly indicating they may have seen
the same thing. I met my friends and told them I was sure I had
seen UFOs. They reacted with friendly skepticism, but I saw the
triangles again in the southeast corner of the sky. I sat up,
pointed, and said, "Look!!! There they are!!!" One friend was
able to see them much farther away. Just before they
disappeared, one triangle broke out of formation and darted
ahead. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of the National
Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com.

GEORGIA SILENT GREEN LIGHT TRAVELING AT AN UNBELIEVABLE SPEED.

STATESBORO -- On November 17, 2001, three witnesses were
outside to see if the reported meteor shower had begun. While
looking off into the southern horizon, I noticed a green light
at about 10:00 PM. At first it was a white light that slowly
changed to a light green color. There were no Flashing lights
or red lights, as associated with aircraft. In addition, the
light stayed on a straight path, and was seen for miles. The
light also was moving at a speed, which seemed out of the norm
for local jet fighters. There was no sound with the object
which made me think it might have been an "early meteor," but
as the object continued into the distance, I noticed there was
no dust trail as seen with meteor's. In addition, the object
did not appear to be "Burning" or a "Fireball." The light
continued into the distance until it became to small to see.

AUGUSTA -- On November 19, 2001, the witness reports seeing a
chevron shaped object move from the north to south at 5:30 AM.
Its movement caught my eye. It had a 'V' shaped bank of white
lights the same color as the stars. The rear lights seemed to
be offset a little. It had no aircraft type of lighting on it
and made no sound. The lights were perfectly round, like domes.
Could not see any shape but the v shape pattern of the lights.
I have seen this type of object on many of the UFO shows.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

OHIO BRIGHT ORANGE LIGHTS

SOUTH WEBSTER -- On November 15, 2001, the witness and a
coworker saw burnt orange objects in the northeastern sky at
6:29 PM. Virtually the same object was also spotted on May 31.
We first saw a single burnt orange light in the northern sky.
It was there only about 20 seconds or so then went out. Then in
about a minute it was visible slightly left of its first
location. After about three minutes, we saw one, then two, and
then three objects in the northwest. They had the same shape,
color, and brightness. We were shocked because we thought we
would never see this again. The sky was crystal clear and no
moon was visible. Objects were about at 45 degree's from
horizon. There were jets in the area but at a much higher
altitude. Alternatively, so they seemed. No sounds were heard.
I have been watching the sky since I was a small boy and I have
never saw anything like this. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

KENTUCKY BRIGHT ORANGE LIGHTS

RIBOLT -- On November 15, 2001, at 5:55 PM a MUFON member
reports seeing a very bright orange light with what appeared to
be four refraction lines radiating from it, similar to the
headlight of an airliner. A second, identical, light appeared
to the left and slightly up from the first. It appeared as if
two planes were in extreme proximity to each other. We stopped
the truck (expecting to see a plane crash) and I opened the
truck door and looked right at the two lights and then saw four
to six more identical lights appear in succession to the left
and below the second light, almost evenly spaced and forming a
semi circle as the last one or two lights appeared heading back
to the right. The light positions remained static, with no
change or movement, and the lights remained steady with no
flickering. As I grabbed my camera, all of the lights
disappeared. The lights were much bigger and brighter than any
star and we saw several airplanes as we continued our trip and
none of the plane lights remotely resembled what we saw. A
friend said she saw similar lights at her farm in the far
southeastern part of this county about a month ago and she was
relieved that we saw what we did. There was no sound. RINGGOLD
((NUFORC Note: Please see report from Ringgold, OH, for same
date, and same approximate time.

MICHIGAN LIGHTS

OTTER LAKE, FOSTORIA -- Heather Power's reported to Skywatch
International that she was in her living room on December 3,
2001, when her daughter ran out of her room and said. "Mom its
back." I went to the bay window at 6:45 PM, and I spotted it
almost immediately. It was a bright light hovering high in the
sky, but different from a star. I grabbed my binoculars and was
astounded, because it was brighter than all the stars that were
out. This is the second sighting of this kind. My daughter and
I saw something similar about a month ago, so we decided to
keep watching, hoping to see it again. Our house is on a bare
hill on 4 acres, with a large bay window facing south. There is
open field around our house, and few trees, it is ideal to view
the night sky. I viewed this object hovering for about 3
minutes. It appeared to be cross shaped, with the center being
the brightest. As I was watching it taking mental notes, it
appeared, and at that instant, other duller (not as bright)
objects began to appear and disappear all around the area the
first one had been. My daughter is 13 years old, and she is
somewhat afraid when we see these lights. Thanks to Bill
Hamilton of Skywatch International
skywatch_discussion@yahoogroups.com.

MINNESOTA FIVE BRONZE COLORED, ELLIPTICAL SHAPED OBJECTS

MAPLEWOOD -- The witness reports he saw five figures in a
formation soar on November 19, 2001. They were bronze in color,
and elliptical in shape. Their sides came to a point, rather
than just rounded. All looked to be the same size. The
formation they were flying was similar to a Less Than sign (<).
They were traveling towards the southeast at 11:45 PM and being
a pilot myself, I would guestemate around 40,000 feet. The sky
was clear. I watched them from about a 60-degree sky position
from my right side, to about a 30-degree sky position on my
left side. They flew virtually overhead. I saw no other lights,
nothing flashing, just the steady bronze color. I heard no
sounds from them, but at that altitude you probably wouldn't.
There were no trailing streams of light coming from them. I
know the Leonid Meteor shower has been going on, but with
meteor showers, the light goes extremely fast, has a trail of
light, and is generally really bright. These lights could not
be meteors. There is not a great amount of military aircraft
around here. The objects I saw were traveling three times as
fast as an airliner in cruise. I'm not sure how fast our
military aircraft can go, but it was impressive whatever it
was. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

MIDWEST SPACE DEBRIS ENTERS ATMOSPHERE

On Saturday night, December 1st, around 10:15 PM CST, a
sensational fireball glided over at least seven states in the
US Midwest. Airline pilots and passengers had a terrific view,
while automobile traffic stopped. Emergency phone lines were
jammed. There were about eight slow-moving fiery yellow objects
moving across the night sky. Police and television stations
from Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, reported seeing the
streaks in the sky.

Sam Sherman the President of Independent International Pictures
saw the CNN broadcast video of the streaks of brilliant light
moving across the sky from Nebraska to Texas. He and several
people who observed the video felt their was more than debris
breaking up and there was also a slow moving craft of some sort
visible among the 30 balls of light. NORAD announced that
moving from the southwest to northeast pieces of a Proton
rocket had disintegrated in Earth's atmosphere. NORAD has had a
sudden increase in the number of uncorrelated targets reaching
one hundred a day. Correlated targets are those contained in
NORAD Computer Data Banks. Uncorrelated are essentially unknown
objects in space. Video of the objects shown on CNN seemed to
move too slowly to be pieces of a Soviet SL-12 Proton Rocket.
If UFOs are entering our airspace it is obvious that they might
try to time their entry with that of legitimate space debris.
There have been numerous sightings of green streaking objects
entering our atmosphere since 1947. The Russian Sputnik, the
first satellite in space did not go into orbit until ten years
later. Kansas and Oklahoma witnesses reported seeing four long
streaks of light moving across the sky creating sparks as they
entered the atmosphere. UFOs frequently observed from the Space
Shuttle do not create sparks like the space debris that creates
tremendous heat and pressures.

EDINBURGH -- The United Kingdom's Astronomy Technology Centre
says a Proton Rocket was launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome
in Kazakstan at 18:04 UT on December 1st. An 800 kg metal
casing from the fourth stage of the rocket was on its third
orbit around Earth when it burned up in the atmosphere over
southern England and France at about 22:35 UT." The National
Space Development Agency of Japan has announced, the Fuyo No.
1, satellite could fall onto any part of the planet. The 340 kg
satellite will most likely enter the Earths atmosphere on
December 4, 2001. Thanks to Sam Sherman of Independent
International Pictures. Look for their label on DVDs/

OREGON TWO OBJECTS JOINED, THEN SPLIT APART

PORTLAND -- The witness was driving home when he saw two
objects just after sunset on November 19, 2001. At first, they
appeared to be airplanes, although they seemed to be joined
together and form one large hovering craft. The witness
estimated they were flying at 2000 feet altitude as they passed
at 5:15 PM. Then, after about ten minutes, they split again.
One advanced northward, and the other remained in a hover mode,
perhaps advancing slightly northward. The witness state, "I
then saw a very small light leave the remaining craft, and it
fluttered downward erratically, kind of like a spark. As I
arrived home, this second craft advanced forward again, and I
noticed it was shaped somewhat like a plane, but all the
lighting was white and steady. There were no blinking red and
greens that are normally seen on the wing and tail sections of
a plane." As I watched it slowly move northward, it appeared
not to have a body or shape. It was as if lights were arrayed
on an invisible craft. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

ENGLAND UFOs VIDEO TAPED

BEDHAMPTON -- Hello Jeff, Saturday, November 24, 2001, was a
special day when the residents received a daylight visit from a
UFO and the event was fortunately videotaped by Anthony Woods,
local resident and sky watcher. Mr. Woods has been involved in
UFO sightings for a long time, experiencing what seems to be an
exciting, personal interaction with these unknown objects. On
November 24, 2001, the sun suddenly broke through the clouds,
and local resident Anthony Woods was waiting for after several
days of rain and bad weather. But he was not preparing himself
to work in his garden. Instead, he grabbed his video camera and
went outside to await the possible appearance of a UFO...like
so many times before, when he had followed his unique ability
to sense the coming presence of an enigmatic visitor. I met
Anthony Woods some weeks before as a result of several
fortunate circumstances. He contacted me, interested in the UFO
from the Mexican UFO Wave. He wanted to make some comparisons
between two strange-shaped UFOs videotaped by himself on August
9 and September 22, 2001, in Bedhampton. He showed me the
videos and asked if I knew of similar UFOs from Mexico. When I
saw both videos I was quite impressed at the strange shapes,
especially the one from August 9 - something truly
unprecedented, which I have never seen before. This unknown
object exhibited amazing polymorphic shape changes during its
behavior... which permits one to instantly discard the
possibility of misidentifying this craft as any known aircraft,
bird, or balloon.

Anthony recorded superb daylight footage with his video camera,
clearly capturing the structural details of the UFO's body. The
footage is almost 6 minutes long and during this period the UFO
remained almost static in the sky, rotating on its axis in a
vertical manner, at low altitude. Definitely, the most
intriguing feature of this craft is its polymorphism - changing
its shape - continuously while doing maneuvers that defy the
known physics laws. Anthony videotaped this UFO above his
parents' home. After several minutes the object flew away at a
steady speed. The September 22 footage presents a barrel-shaped
UFO, also rotating and reflecting the sunlight on its left
side. That morning, Anthony was in his home when he "felt" that
sensation and went outside and encountered the visitor directly
above his garden. An interesting feature of the footage is the
presence of a large bird (possibly a crow) that appeared to
circle the hovering object to take a closer look before
retreating. Reviewing the video, Anthony pointed out to me
another interesting detail on both videos (August 9 and
September 22). He noticed that both objects appear to show, in
some of the frames, 'spikes', or 'hairs' sticking out. He
thought that maybe it was just some type of distortion but I
replied that maybe those were the so-called "Angel Hair"
filaments of thin, spider web-like transparent fibers
discovered after some UFO sightings - a phenomenon well-known
in Ufology. Thanks to Santiago Yturria Photos and complete
story at http://www.rense.com/general17/EXBEDUFO.HTM

SPAIN OVAL-SHAPED OBJECT FLYING LIPSTICK

CANTILLANA, SEVILLE PROVINCE -- On December 4, 2001, Jose B.S.
was driving his vehicle on Highway 116, past kilometer 12
heading toward Mairena del Alcor at 10:58 AM, when he noticed
of an oval-shaped object. He says, it was similar to a
lipstick, and white in color. The object followed a westerly
trajectory and plummeted in mid-flight before flying
horizontally again, stopping, ascending and disappearing toward
the West at high speed. The distance was about ten kilometers
away. The witness places the object over a town called
Cantillana and was almost able to cover it with his thumb. We
can therefore estimate a relative size similar to that of the
full moon or larger.

As an anecdotal note, the witness points out that toward 10:30
a.m., jet airplanes flew low over Seville Airport. Logically,
all this data is being analyzed, but given the urgency of the
subject, the SIB calls upon the international UFO community to
aid in determining any concomittant sighting. On the other
hand, we welcome any information from friends in the province
of Seville. Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Translation (C) 2001. Special thanks to Antonio
Salinas, Director, Dept. of Ufology/Exobiology, S.I.B.

ITALY UFO NEWS FLASH ISSUE NO. 324

The Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU) reports that there
were numerous UFO sightings this summer in Italy. Giuseppe
Stilo has disseminated a preliminary list of reports of the
Italian wave of sightings. More than 67 sightings were recorded
by August 1st and many others had been observed. Meanwhile, the
number of incidents reported by the mass media has been
diminishing (55 newspaper clippings gathered by Eco della
Stampa during the month of July, compared with 86 in June). The
sightings were widespread throughout the Italian Peninsula;
with a slight lead in the northern regions. Nocturnal lights
prevail; but in July, there occurred 11 daylight objects, 8
close encounters, and 3 cases captured on videotape. There were
62 sightings in June.

PADUA -- The Monselice Case occurred on the evening of August
3, 2001, at about 11:15 PM, two women sitting on a bench in a
square observed an enormous four-sided object descend from the
sky. It made no noise and stopped a few meters above the ground
directly over the witnesses. The object, measuring side-on
approximately 10 meters in length, had rounded edges and many
lights. At the structure's center, there was a ring of intense
light, with a little red light in the middle. One of the women
fled in terror, hid behind a small statue of the Madonna, while
the other remained paralyzed on the bench. Suddenly, she rose
and took a few steps forward, until she was directly beneath
the object: She gestured strangely with her arms and made some
noises. Her friend continued to call to her screaming and
finally convinced her friend to join her behind the statue.
After a few seconds, the strange metallic platform, with a kind
of "muffled noise," eventually split up into three parts which
then shot away at an incredible speed. Two luminous discs in
one direction, one multicolored one in the other. Their screams
caught the attention of another woman who caught sight only of
the two frightened witnesses. A third witness, who was 500
meters away, saw a "stupendous and intensely colored"
square-shaped object, which she stopped to watch for its
"extremely beautiful colors: white, red, yellow and green." The
two protagonists of the story remained greatly unsettled from
their experience: one of them didn't manage to sleep at night
for a week or more, remained in a state of shock and
speechless. An inquest was conducted by the Carabinieri, and
the case was picked up by various Ufologists who issued varied
and contrasting statements. The Pordenonese Antonio Chiumiento
affirmed that it had to do with an extraterrestrial object
which was going to attempt to abduct one of the two women.
Instead, The International UFO Center maintained that the cause
likely was a top-secret American airplane. The Venice
contingent of the National UFO Center finally reported its
detection of a slight trace of radioactivity at the spot,
leading to alarm among the population and the intervention of
the Regional Environmental Protection Agency, which alternately
refuted the presence of any radioactivity. Il Gazzettino, Padua
edition and Il Mattino di Padova, 17-30 August; UfoItalia,
23-30 August; collaboration by Roberto Labanti, Matteo Leone,
Alessandro Lu=E8, Dario Paganini and Gildo Person=E8.]

NORWAY STRANGE LIGHTS

HESSDALEN -- The Italian Mission Returns Home After four weeks,
the Italian mission came to an end on 22 August in the
Hessdalen Valley of Norway, where sightings of strange lights
in the sky have occurred repeatedly for twenty years. The
expedition, conducted in collaboration with the National
Council of Research Activities, had the goal of acquiring
optical and electromagnetic data on the phenomenon. CNR was led
by the astrophysicist Massimo Teodorani; and was organized and
financed (for the second consecutive year) by the Italian
Committee for Project Hessdalen, a group created in Bologna
last year for this specific aim and coordinated by Renzo
Cabassi. The unfavorable atmospheric conditions
notwithstanding, various video and photographic captures of the
phenomenon were acquired this year. Photometric and
spectroscopic techniques were put to the test. The data
gathered will be analyzed and interpreted and finally
summarized in a preliminary technical article to be published
in the future on the CIPH Website (http://www.itacomm.net/PH/).

FRANCE "UFOS: THE AMERICAN SECRET"

The UFO world has been reverberating for weeks after the
September airing on National TV Channel 2 documentary, "OVNIs,
le secret American,", the work of the French journalist French
Vincent Gielly, who during two years of investigating has
interviewed numerous experts, viewed archives and consulted
documents around the globe. The clamor also derives from the
fact that the documentary was preview-broadcast exclusively to
the French Senate last 24 April, arousing a certain interest in
the objective and historic piece. The documentary is actually
modeled after the life of the astronomer/Ufologist Dr. Joseph
Allen Hynek. Among the Ufologists interviewed (Americans,
overall), there are some of the most notable names on the
American scene. Already arousing particular interest is news of
the inclusion of a French counter-espionage official who is
actively involved with the subject of UFOs. The program has
already garnered positive reviews from numerous newspapers on
the other side of the Alps, and followers hope that this
signals a turnabout in the way that television handles the
subject in their country. Thanks to Edoardo Russo and the
Italian Center for UFO Studies at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm 10121 Turin, Italy and
ufoupdates@home.com

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving
at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender
2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come
help our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.

Regards, George Filer









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                Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:01:45 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:14:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles - Balaskas


 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nancy Talbot And Crop Circles
 >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:25:06 -0500

<snip>

 >I disagree wholeheartedly with Nick Balaskas' statement
 >regarding Nancy Talbot's eyewitness account of the formation of
 >a crop circle. Only someone who has never seen anything would
 >say such a thing. Flashlights?

 >Last time I checked, the beam given off by flashlights do not
 >have visible, solide-appearing straight-edge sides, nor are they
 >bright enough to light up the inside of a house or a room from
 >the outside. I've heard too many cases of the brilliance of such
 >beams of lights, cone-shaped or otherwise, emanating from UFOs
 >and how they "hurt" the eyes of the onlooker when looking
 >directly at it.

<snip>

Hi Michel.

Reading Nancy Talbot's written account of her "witnessed" crop
circle formation (not just what she said on Errol's UFO radio
show) she herself described this beam of light "as if from
helicopter searchlights". Wouldn't you say this is not in
disagreement with my car headlights or one million candlepower
searchlight?

Since light travels so fast, Nancy would not be able to say if
the beam of light came from above or below so what she claims
cannot be considered an actual observation but only a deduction.

Nancy goes on to write that "Neither of us saw anything in the
overcast sky". I am sure you have noticed what happens to the
very bright landing lights when aircraft are flying through
clouds at night - the clouds block the light beams!

This, together with the testimony of the other witness who
claims to have seen a narrower beam from the ground floor, only
further supports my conclusion of a diverging beam of light
originating from the ground.

Although I don't recall hearing Nancy mention about the window
curtains in her bedroom, she does state in her written account
that her bedroom "lights were on and the room was well-lit" and
that the curtains were closed when she unexpectedly saw the beam
of light. To her credit, Nancy also says that she "can't
understand how I could very clearly see the "tube" of light
outside".

Since Nancy was staying at the home of Robbert who claims some
sort psychic prior knowledge of the creation of crop circles, a
prank or hoax played on an honest investigator cannot be ruled
out.

Did Nancy bring back to the U.S. any plant samples from within
this bean circle for scientific study? According to Nancy, no,
she ate them for dinner a few days later instead! Why anyone
would eat anything collected from within a mysteriously formed
crop circle is beyond me but it raises further questions in my
mind about the true origin of this event.

Like everyone else, I too am very anxiously looking forward to
reading Nancy's published research findings regarding the crop
circle phenomenon. I will save any further comments I have about
this "witnessed" event and other crop circle matters until then.

Nick Balaskas

P.S. There is one additional comment I would like to make about
the beam of light which Nancy said had a width of somewhere
around 8 inches to one foot. Although it is not clear how she
got this value (was it her estimate of the actual width of the
beam far away from her or was it the width relative to the
window curtain she saw it through). Let's assume it is the
latter. Nancy's bed would be about 5 feet from the window and
about 100 feet from the crop circle (add 5 feet to the 80 foot
length of the backyard to the fence and an additional 15 feet to
the crop circle on the other side of the fence to give us 100
feet).

Using the ratio of two similar triangles to estimate the actual
width of the beam of light which created the crop circle we get:

1 foot/5 feet = X feet/100 feet

then

X feet = 1 foot x 100 feet/5 feet = 20 feet

This agrees very well with the 20 foot width of the
elliptical part of the crop circle that could be seen from
the house.









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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:29:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:38:31 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:50:50 -0600
 >Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re:  More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >I just talked by phone with Bill Dana, one of four surviving
 >X-15 pilots, and recently retired as director of NASa's Dryden
 >Flight Research Center at Edwards AFB.

 >He recalled White's story well. "Bob was concerned, at first, he
 >thought he was flying through a field of these objects going by
 >his window," he told me. "Turned out, it was ice coming off
 >something -- an APU exhaust, I recall, or some cryogenic
 >transporter." He gave me the phone numbers of some flight
 >managers who also worked the program and I'll be calling them
 >soon.

He may recall, but whether or not he recalls "well" is another
question entirely. Guessing that the acronym "APU" means
attitude propellant unit or something similar, the attitude
thrusters on the nose and wings of the craft used H2O2, which is
not a cryogenic liquid. These thrusters emitted superheated
steam as the exhaust product.  It seems unlikely to me that
steam would freeze into ice flakes under near-vacuum conditions
on surfaces that had been heated to over 1000 degrees centigrade
during passage through the lower atmosphere only seconds before.
I've seen no indication of anything that could be cryogenic in
front of the pilot's cockpit. The LOX tank and connections to
the combustion chamber appear to be the only cryogenic
components on the aircraft. They were behind the pilot.

As David Rudiak pointed out, the craft was almost certainly
traveling with its nose oriented in the direction of flight.
Swiveling the craft around so that the tail was in front could
have been suicidal when the craft was in space for less than 5
minutes. The attitude thrusters were intended to be used to
_maintain_ the correct orientation for the reentry that followed
the brief excursion into near-space, not pointless and dangerous
maneuvers. Anything that White saw "going by his window" was
moving from the nose toward the tail, and it is not at all
likely to have been ice flakes.

Rudiak suggested paint flakes as a possibility. Assuming the
nose was painted, nose-mounted thrusters might have dislodged
some paint flakes from the surrounding surface. The heating from
the hypersonic speed might have blistered the paint, making it
more prone to flaking off. It seems odd that White would have
mistaken paint flakes for something anomalous, but that's the
only "prosaic" explanation I can see that would make any sense.

Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
plain-talking expected from the former. Hope you have better
luck with the other people you contact. Ask them about the paint
flakes.










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                          Secrecy News -- 12/05/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:19:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:09:35 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/05/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 5, 2001


**      CIA DEFENDS DISCLOSURE OF OFFICER'S DEATH
**      ANTHRAX SLOWS FOIA PROCESSING
**      FBI REORGANIZATION DESCRIBED
**      E.U. CONDON REVISITED


CIA DEFENDS DISCLOSURE OF OFFICER'S DEATH

Stung by accusations that it was exploiting the death of
intelligence officer Johnny Micheal Spann in Afghanistan to gain
favorable publicity, the Central Intelligence Agency this week
took the unusual step of attacking its accusers and defending
its disclosure policies.

"We generally don't respond to outrageous remarks made by
uninformed critics. But these claims, which have been aired on
several national television networks, are so reckless,
malicious, and cynical that we believe it is necessary and
appropriate to respond," the CIA said in a December 3 statement:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/pr12032001.html

The principal target of the Agency's wrath, who goes unnamed, is
former CIA counterterrorism official Larry Johnson, who blasted
the CIA acknowledgment of Spann's death on PBS and MSNBC news
programs.

The CIA statement noted that the decision to disclose Spann's
identity was approved by "his entire chain of command" as well
as by the Spann family.

CIA's official position is that it does not withhold information
unnecessarily, nor does the Agency disclose information with an
ulterior motive. If it ever appears otherwise, the defect must
be in the eye of the beholder.

"When we've been able to publicly identify every CIA employee
who has made the ultimate sacrifice, we have done so," CIA
spokesman Anya Guilsher told InsideDefense.com yesterday. When
the names of fallen officers are withheld, it is always for a
good reason, though such reasons "may not be readily apparent or
understandable."

See "CIA Defends Decision to Identify Officer Killed in
Afghanistan" by Anne Plummer in InsideDefense.com:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/12/id120401.html


ANTHRAX SLOWS FOIA PROCESSING

Disruptions in mail service due to anthrax contamination "have
greatly delayed the delivery and receipt of Freedom of
Information Act-related correspondence throughout the federal
government," according to the Department of Justice.

Now the terrorists have gone too far.

"FOIA requesters must accept that the unprecedented delays in
mail delivery that have been caused by the anthrax mail
emergency during the past two months... will cause corresponding
delays in the administration of the FOIA," the Justice
Department warned in a November 30 statement.

See "Anthrax Mail Emergency Delays FOIA Correspondence":

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2001foiapost21.htm


FBI REORGANIZATION DESCRIBED

The first phase of a reorganization of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation that will emphasize the Bureau's counterterrorism
mission was described in a December 3 press release:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/12/fbi-reorg.html

"The FBI's reorganization will strengthen our capabilities in
counterterrorism, counterintelligence, cybercrime, and
cooperation with state and local law enforcement," said Attorney
General John Ashcroft in a press statement. "These reforms and
restructuring will sharpen the FBI's capacity to act
deliberately and decisively in protecting Americans' lives and
liberties in the 21st Century."


E.U. CONDON REVISITED

Edward U. Condon (1902-1974) was a distinguished physicist whose
biography encompassed some of the fiercest cold war conflicts
over security and loyalty in American society.

As a prominent advocate of nuclear arms control and scientific
internationalism, Condon clashed repeatedly with the House
Committee on Un-American Activities and endured years of
political harrassment.

His story is recalled by UCLA historian Jessica Wang in the
December issue of Physics Today. See "Edward Condon and the
Cold War Politics of Loyalty" here:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-54/iss-12/p35.html

Condon's name has additional resonance in quite different
quarters due to his leadership of a U.S. Air Force assessment of
"the UFO problem."

To the dismay of enthusiasts, the 1968 "Scientific Study of
Unidentified Flying Objects," also known as "the Condon Report,"
found little substance to the issue.

"Careful consideration of the record as it is available to us
leads us to conclude that further extensive study of UFOs
probably cannot be justified in the expectation that science
will be advanced thereby," the Report concluded.

The Condon Report has been published online by the National
Capital Area Skeptics here:

http://912a-87.umd.edu/condon/index.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
   subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]
To UNSUBSCRIBE, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:
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Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                       Virtually Strange Network Site

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:57:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:57:59 -0500
Subject: Virtually Strange Network Site


The Virtually Strange Network Site Is Open


John Velez, Glenn Campbell and myself spent a week or two on it.
VSN thanks John for his tasty, clean, execution of the black &
white retro-look, and to Glenn for moving this List's Archive
to the new site. A deep debt of gratitude is owed to Glenn whose
coding skills and sense of history made the Archive possible.

The UFOs button on the front page will take visitors in to this
List's archive, the 'Strange Days... Indeed' program & archive
area, to The Abduction Information Center site, the MUFON
Ontario area and to 'UfoLogical Links'. Your input and comments
on the latter are encouraged.

For subscribers who wish to make files available to the List,
and don't have sites of their own, 'UFO UpDates - The Site' will
have links to internal pages to those files. Said files should
be attached to a List-Post - they'll U/L'ed, a link inserted
into the original message which will be posted to the List.

Other areas, off the front page, will be added to on a regular
basis. Many readers, here, are intrigued by strangeness other
than UFOs - please feel free to make suggestions and
contributions for those areas.

Visit:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/


Errol Bruce-Knapp









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   Dec > Dec 6

                             AIC Has A New Home!

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 02:49:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:56:18 -0500
Subject: AIC Has A New Home!


Howdy All,

I'm proud to announce that the "Abduction Information Center"
website now resides in its new home as a component of the even
newer, 'Virtually Strange Network'.   :)

The site can be accessed through the Virtually Strange
Network website by going to:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net

... then go to the VSN 'UFO' page and click on the link provided
to the Abduction Information Center web files. Update your
bookmark to AIC while you're there.

I received a couple of 'articles' from Budd Hopkins last week
and I'll be posting them to the AIC archives shortly. I'll send
out a little announcement once the pages have been composed and
uploaded to the web. In the interest of presenting as many
varied points of view as I can on the subject, I'd like to take
this opportunity to invite Kevin Randle and Luis Gonzales to
contribute a short article stating their own 'take' on the
subject of UFO abduction.

I hope you take the time to check out AIC at the Virtually
Strange Network website if you haven't already seen it. And for
those who have, I'd like to point you to the Karla Turner
material (links available on the AIC "Points Of View" page) that
CNI News's Mike Lindemann donated to the AIC archive. The
transcripts to those sessions with Karla are available
exclusively at AIC.  :)


Enjoy,

John Velez, Webmaster A.I.C.

*AIC is the current incarnation of the "old" Budd Hopkins'
Intruders Foundation website. Myself, my current work, and the
Abduction Information Center website are in _no_way_ affiliated
with IF. JV







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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:21:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:58:34 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:29:55 -0600
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
 >and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
 >more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
 >plain-talking expected from the former. Hope you have better
 >luck with the other people you contact. Ask them about the paint
 >flakes.

That was Dana, not Duran.

Here's something else I just got.

I'll respond to other ponits later.


PILOT'S COMMENTS
X-15-3  Flight 3-7-14
Pilot: Major R. White

"After engine shutdown I engaged angle of attack hold at 6
degrees alpha, and I seemed to hold this all right. It wasn't
long after i went through 220,000 that I disengaged angle of
attack hold and just continued on over the top. It seemed like a
hell of a long time to get over the top. . . .

"While I was level I started noticing some things and I said,
'Now wait a minute they must be inside the cockpit,' but they
were outside the cockpit. It looked like perhaps it might have
been residue or frost or very small little things going by, I
was paying attention and focusing on what these things might
have been, and one time a piece of something about the size of
my hand, which looked like a piece of paper, went past just
going along with the airplane. It was there, there was no
question about it."

Q: Do you think it was frost?

A: This thing looked too big for that. It looked like a piece of
paper, almost the size of your hand.

Q: Whereabouts in relation to the airplane?

A: Just off to the left side, right on the window level. The
other ones were out on the right side, little somethings but I
couldn't distinguish what they were. There was no question about
it.

Q: Did it come from the nose perhaps?

A: Well, I thought the other small ones came from the nose, but
this other one just stayed there.

"Okay, going ahead now, my inertial indicator went above 300,000 ft., but I
don't know how high I got. This looked like I was quite a bit higher than
the last flight because I could just look out and - you know what the
pictures look like when the guy is flying in orbit, well that's what it
looked like. "  <snip>

Q: What was the theta average during climbout?

A: I would say it finally averaged just about 41 degrees, I was
darned if I was going to be low on this one.

Q: What was your engine time?

A: About 82 seconds.

Q: About heading orientation going over the top.

A: I think this would be extremely hard to do. You can get a
general impression, by this I mean you look out and can pick out
some land marks, and you know that you are going generally in
this direction, but as far as putting everything on the point,
it's - you can't do it. You're looking off toward Hawaii it
seems, and you can't make out anything.

Q: Did you make use of the three axis ball during the ballistic
flight? Did you fly by that instead of the alpha/beta
indicators?

A: Very definitely. I monitored heading, and then of course I
engaged pitch (theta) hold and watched this, which didn't
change. Then when I got back to the stops (maximum delta-h) the
nose did pitch down. I got down about 15 deg below the horizon
and then i pitched back up. Then when it looked like I had a
good angle of attack indication and the cross pointers were
starting to come in good, I engaged angle of attack hold. It
would be about 25 deg alpha when I engaged it.

Q: Could you feel any angular accelerations from reaction controls?

A: Yes, very definitely, and once or twice I did catch a blast
from the right yaw rocket to give me a correction back to the
left. I could feel the jets kick the airplane when they fired.

Q: Did you use the manual RCS at all going over the top?

A: I never touched them.

Q: What were the limits on the horizon going over the top? How
far could you see?

A: You could just see as far as you looked. I turned my head in
both directions, and you see nothing but the earth. It'' just
tremendous. You look off and the sky is real dark. I don't think
the impression would be much different than it was up around
250,000 ft, but I was impressed remarkably more than I was at
250,000 ft. It amazed me. I looked up and was able to pick out
San Francisco Bay and it looked like it was down over there off
the right wing and I could look out, way out. It was just
tremendous, absolutely tremendous. You have seen pictures from
high up in rockets, or these orbital pictures of what the guy
sees out there. That's exactly what it looked like. The same
thing.

Obtained Dec 5, 2001, from Edwards AFB Historian Mr. Ray L.
Puffer (ray.puffer@edwards.af.mil), Air Force Flight Test
Center/History Office, AFFTC/HO, 305 E. Popson Ave., Edwards
AFB, CA 93524-6595










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                    Re: Filer's Files #49 - 2001 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:27:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:00:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #49 - 2001 - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:37:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >Subject: Filer's Files #49 - 2001


 >FILER'S FILES #49 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >On Saturday night, December 1st, around 10:15 PM CST, a
 >sensational fireball glided over at least seven states ....

 >Sam Sherman the President of Independent International Pictures
 >saw the CNN broadcast video of the streaks of brilliant light
 >moving across the sky from Nebraska to Texas. He and several
 >people who observed the video felt their was more than debris
 >breaking up and there was also a slow moving craft of some sort
 >visible among the 30 balls of light. ..

 >Video of the objects shown on CNN seemed to
 >move too slowly to be pieces of a Soviet SL-12 Proton Rocket.
 >If UFOs are entering our airspace it is obvious that they might
 >try to time their entry with that of legitimate space debris

My son is a student at the University of North Texas in Denton,
50 km NE of Dallas, and he was out camping with friends that
evening. They saw what they interpreted as two flights of
three-each military jets at high speed with afterburners on,
white lights only. If he told me he'd seen a UFO, I guess it
would have meant a lump of coal for Christmas!









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                           Alaska Sighting JAL1628

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:47:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:42:06 -0500
Subject: Alaska Sighting JAL1628


Recently John Callahan, formerly Chief of the Accidents,
Evaluations and Investigations division of the FAA in
Washington, DC, has cited the Japan Airlines sighting of Nov.
1986 in his testimony for the Disclosure Project.

I have now posted my complete investigation of that sighting in
case you want to find out why Callahan was impressed.

http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/Jal1628.html









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                        Michael Gershtein Site Update

From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 04:35:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:52:22 -0500
Subject: Michael Gershtein Site Update



http://www.ufonav.spb.ru/ufo_nav/pages/mnp1.phtml

Mr. Michael Gershtein, a leading Russian ufologist, and a most
somber researcher (in my opinion), has updated his website. I
urge those interested in the Russian UFO research to visit it.
He and I do not always agree on a number of cases, but I
strongly recommend his no-nonsense approach to research and
analysis. I would recommend those who do not speak Russian to
contact him in English at: ufo_miger@chat.ru

His mailing address is:

Michael B. Gershtein
Post Office Box 4
Saint Petersburg
Russia  190008

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Kosmopoisk folks have not been sitting on their hands,
either, and their site is updated (there is an English-language
page as well).

http://kosmopoisk.org/
Here is where you write to reach Mr. Vadim Chernobrov:
chernobrov@kosmopoisk.org

----------------------------------------------------------------

Another website that contains an enormous wealth of information
about Russian and international UFO research is found at:

http://anomalia.narod.ru/

Segey N. Kozlov is the owner of the site. He has maintained the
site steadily and consistently, and is to be lauded for his
efforts. The email address is:

ufosergo@mail.ru
----------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Subbotin's site has been updated, too. There are new
articles, books, and tons of useful information about Russian
UFO research. Nick has been doing great and consistent work of
bringing Russian UFO research to the Internet. Kudos to him.
http://ufo.psu.ru/


Paul Stonehill










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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:27:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:29:55 -0600
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:50:50 -0600
 >>Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >He may recall, but whether or not he recalls "well" is another
 >question entirely. Guessing that the acronym "APU" means
 >attitude propellant unit or something similar, the attitude
 >thrusters on the nose and wings of the craft used H2O2, which is
 >not a cryogenic liquid. These thrusters emitted superheated
 >steam as the exhaust product. It seems unlikely to me that
 >steam would freeze into ice flakes under near-vacuum conditions
 >on surfaces that had been heated to over 1000 degrees centigrade
 >during passage through the lower atmosphere only seconds before.
 >I've seen no indication of anything that could be cryogenic in
 >front of the pilot's cockpit. The LOX tank and connections to
 >the combustion chamber appear to be the only cryogenic
 >components on the aircraft. They were behind the pilot.

An APU is an Auxiliary Power unit that burns hydrazine to create
hydraulic pressure to run aerosurfaces and engine gimbals. The
Space Shuttle has three of them, with exhaust ports at the front
base of the vertical tail. Water vapor is a by-product.

"Seeming unlikely to you" really doesn't cut it in terms of what
is, or is not, real in space -- seriously, no slap intended, but
strange things happen in space that are often contrary to
earthside experience. Both water and hydrazine freeze readily in
space because of robust evaporative cooling, despite sunlight or
structural temperatures. When I worked as a propulsion officer
monitoring OMS/RCS systems on early shuttle flights, the way we
detected thruster valve leaks was not through tank or line
pressure fluctuations -- which by Boyle's Law bounced around in
a 'spongy' fsahion as temperatures changed, sometimes through
adiabatic cooling during long burns -- but was via the
temperature sensor in the thruster nozzles. A drop in thruster
temperature meant that something was actively cooling the area
by evaporation/freezing -- and sure enough, when detected, these
leaks could often be spotted as 'snowstorms' by the crew at
sunrise/sunset, leading to some spectacular imagery (need I
mention there was an aft thruster leaking during STS-48?). Heck,
on Mercury, the cooling system used deliberate water freezing to
dump cabin heat, it was called a Water Spray Boiler (also, a
Flash Evaporator), and the shuttle has one, also, for use during
mission phases when the doors aren't open to expose the
radiators to deep dark cold space.

 >Anything that White saw "going by his window" was
 >moving from the nose toward the tail, and it is not at all
 >likely to have been ice flakes.

Vehicle-generated debris can be any number of things, from any
number of sources. The nose was known to emit paint flakes,
exactly as you write. The nose also had thrusters which emitted
water as a byproduct. As you can see from the post-flight pilot
report, White had no problem with seeing a flow of small
particles from the nose, but he did notice that the bigger piece
-- about the size of his hand -- seemed to be different.


 >Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
 >and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
 >more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
 >plain-talking expected from the former.

I'm disappointed with your readiness to reject the first-hand comments of
people who were right there, with vague allegations of 'spin-doctoring', a
suggestion of deliberate fraud. Hey, it can happen, we're just trying to see
what happened in this case.










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                     Re: AIC Has A New Home! - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 6 Dec 2001 07:33:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:55:50 -0500
Subject: Re: AIC Has A New Home! - Hamilton


 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 02:49:44 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: AIC Has A New Home!

 >Howdy All,

 >I'm proud to announce that the "Abduction Information Center"
 >website now resides in its new home as a component of the even
 >newer, 'Virtually Strange Network'.   :)

 >The site can be accessed through the Virtually Strange
 >Network website by going to:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net

<snip>


Looks good, John. Keep up the good work.

Bill







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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:54:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:16:26 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


In my last message, I guessed that "APU" stood for Attitude
Propellant Unit, but that was wrong. It stands for 'Auxiliary
Power Unit' as indicated in the paragraph below:


http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/x15conf/design.html

"In figure 7 we get to where you can see some of the internal
arrangements, and I will point out some of the points of
interest. First, starting at the nose of the X-15, you will note
the location of the pitch and yaw thrusters. These are powered
by passing hydrogen peroxide over a catalyst and turning it into
a high-pressure, high-temperature gas that is expelled through a
nozzle producing a thrust of 40 to I 10 IN There are eight of
these thrusters located in the nose. There are two of them
located on both the top and bottom of the nose for pitch
control, and another pair are located on either side of the nose
to produce the left and right yaw control. Moving aft, we pass
the nose gear and cockpit. Behind the pilot, note the location
of the auxiliary power units (APU's). There are two of these
units mounted on a bulkhead. They are again powered by hydrogen
peroxide, which drives a turbine that supplies the energy that
produces all the hydraulic and electric power for the ship's
service."

The same paper also says:

"Figure 14 calls to mind that the auxiliary power unit had some
serious problems. A good share of the difficulties arose from
the use of hydrogen peroxide as the propellant. By the time it
entered the turbine, the temperature was high, about 1350 'F,
the pressure was high, and it was very corrosive."


Since the APUs used extremely hot hydrogen peroxide as fuel, it
seems unlikely that their exhaust could be a source of ice for
the same reason that the thrusters seem to be an unlikely source
of ice. In any case, the APUs were positioned behind the cockpit
and ice from that location wouldn't have gotten in front of the
cockpit.









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                       Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:13:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:20:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:48:04 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Fermi's Paradox III
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:57:28 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 >>>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:08:03 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 >>>>Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:14:45 -0800
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Fermi's Paradox III

 ><snip>

 >>>Would that result in something better or worse.... That is the
 >>>Question!

 >>Nothing wrong with people being told the truth. Ever.

 ><snip>

 >>Time for a whole _Revolution_ of Truth. Damn the torpedoes, and
 >>double-damn civilization "as we know it." I've had a belly-full
 >>of "as we know it". Haven't you?

 >Have you gotten ahold of my Abduction book yet? Read the chapter
 >'Question Everything' (if nothing else).

Hi Bruce,

I plan to do a cover-to-cover on it when I get it. It's on my
x-mas wish list! I'm not sure if it's my wife or my
sister-in-law who got saddled with 'wish fulfillment' for the
request, but I hope to find a copy of your new book under the
tree come Dec. 25.  ;)

I promise to post my impressions to the List once I've had a
chance to give it a read.

*And... I hope that you've requested to have your website added
to the new Virtually Strange Network's UfoLinks page. It would
make a terrific contribution to the VSN web offering. I spend
more time reading out at your site than I do just about anywhere
else. The VSN Links page is another way to 'spread the word' and
get surfers to stop by and take in your work. Zap Errol a line
privately and he'll add the link.

Regards,

John Velez









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                           How to Investigate UFOs

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:55:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:21:58 -0500
Subject: How to Investigate UFOs


How should one go about investigating phenomena that appear
unexpectedly to unprepared observers? There are not too many
resources or essay about this facet of UFO research on the
Internet. We collected a number of pointers to report forms for
short-lived phenomena, fireball meteors, ball lightning, severe
weather phenomena and, of course, UFOs.

We have also included a few documents concerning attempts to
investigate UFOs from Edward Ruppelt and the Colorado University
study.

  http://www.project1947.com/howto/index.html


We look forward to adding more such documents and links. Please
feel free to submit ideas.

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
(860) 546-9135
jan@project1947.com









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                        UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:17:33 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:27:54 -0500
Subject: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?


Dear Gentle Listers,Errol;

I wonder if any of you have seen the photos on Rense.Com of the
sundry UK 'amorphous' UFO, photographed by Anthony Woods.
Having never seen anything even remotely like this particular
object except in photos taken in Mexico, I find them fascinating
and would welcome commentary.

The latest set of images is at:

http://www.rense.com/general17/EXC.HTM

Jim Mortellaro









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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:30:46 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Rudiak


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:21:17 -0600

 >Here's something else I just got.

 >I'll respond to other ponits later.

 >PILOT'S COMMENTS
 >X-15-3 Flight 3-7-14
 >Pilot: Major R. White

 >"After engine shutdown I engaged angle of attack hold at 6
 >degrees alpha, and I seemed to hold this all right. It wasn't
 >long after i went through 220,000 that I disengaged angle of
 >attack hold and just continued on over the top. It seemed like a
 >hell of a long time to get over the top. . . .

 >"While I was level I started noticing some things and I said,

If this was while he was level, then it occurred near peak
altitude, which Oberg "assumed" but didn't specify, and I too
assumed in the absence of information.

 >'Now wait a minute they must be inside the cockpit,' but they
 >were outside the cockpit.

Here's an indication that White was having a little trouble
judging distance, not surprising considering the absence of
normal visual cues in that environment.

 >It looked like perhaps it might have
 >been residue or frost or very small little things going by,

Residue, probably -- maybe blistered paint flecking off the
nose. But frost? From where? Between the earlier high vibrations
and the high heat of friction, there shouldn't be any ice left
on the nose, or anywhere else on the skin of the plane, for that
matter.

 >I was paying attention and focusing on what these things might
 >have been, and one time a piece of something about the size of
 >my hand, which looked like a piece of paper, went past just
 >going along with the airplane. It was there, there was no
 >question about it."

It was "just going along with the airplane" and looked "like a
piece of paper." Thus a flat, very non-aerodynamic thing.
Unfortunately White doesn't specify a perceived distance for
this thing, like in the Time Magazine article, where he placed
it at 30 to 40 feet.

The "little things," assuming they were debris off the nose, I
assume would drift along the stream lines and pass within inches
of the cockpit windows, which sounds like what White is
describing. But how did this other flat thingee get way out
there, even if it came off the nose? It should drift right past
the windows along with the little things.

 >Q: Do you think it was frost?

 >A: This thing looked too big for that. It looked like a piece of
 >paper, almost the size of your hand.

So why did Oberg claim this was ice? White realized it couldn't be ice.
Furthermore, remember Oberg's song and dance about this was ice formed from
the rearward liquid oxygen tank or fuel lines? Obviously even if ice had
survived and then later dislodged, it can't move forward, one of the major
objections to the ice theory from the beginning by the gullible UFO believers.

 >Q: Whereabouts in relation to the airplane?

 >A: Just off to the left side, right on the window level. The
 >other ones were out on the right side, little somethings but I
 >couldn't distinguish what they were. There was no question about
 >it.

 >Q: Did it come from the nose perhaps?

 >A: Well, I thought the other small ones came from the nose,

So the plane was pointed straight ahead, which the gullible UFO
believers assumed all along, because reentry loomed within a
minute or two and White was presumably not suicidal. He wasn't
about to turn the plane around.

Oberg, on the other hand, gave us another song and dance about
the X-15's attitude control system being used in a near vacuum
to maneuver the craft into a position such that ice breaking
somewhere off the rear would not have to move forward against
air flow to be seen outside White's side window. Oberg was
trying to BS his way out of this paradox in an effort to salvage
the unsalvagable.

 >but this other one just stayed there.

"This other one just stayed there." Again, here is the anomaly.
It looked like a sheet of paper, meaning it was flat and very
non-aerodynamic. It should have been rapidly swept out of there
along with what was probably small debris moving past the
cockpit window. But instead it hung around and paced the plane.
It "just stayed there" and "it was just going along with the
airplane."

A lot of blah, blah, blah, mostly irrelevant stuff follows:

 >"Okay, going ahead now, my inertial indicator went above 300,000 ft., but I
 >don't know how high I got. This looked like I was quite a bit higher than
 >the last flight because I could just look out and - you know what the
 >pictures look like when the guy is flying in orbit, well that's what it
 >looked like. " <snip>

 >Q: What was the theta average during climbout?

 >A: I would say it finally averaged just about 41 degrees, I was
 >darned if I was going to be low on this one.

 >Q: What was your engine time?

 >A: About 82 seconds.

 >Q: About heading orientation going over the top.

 >A: I think this would be extremely hard to do. You can get a
 >general impression, by this I mean you look out and can pick out
 >some land marks, and you know that you are going generally in
 >this direction, but as far as putting everything on the point,
 >it's - you can't do it. You're looking off toward Hawaii it
 >seems, and you can't make out anything.

 >Q: Did you make use of the three axis ball during the ballistic
 >flight? Did you fly by that instead of the alpha/beta
 >indicators?

 >A: Very definitely. I monitored heading, and then of course I
 >engaged pitch (theta) hold and watched this, which didn't
 >change. Then when I got back to the stops (maximum delta-h) the
 >nose did pitch down. I got down about 15 deg below the horizon
 >and then i pitched back up. Then when it looked like I had a
 >good angle of attack indication and the cross pointers were
 >starting to come in good, I engaged angle of attack hold. It
 >would be about 25 deg alpha when I engaged it.

 >Q: Could you feel any angular accelerations from reaction controls?

 >A: Yes, very definitely, and once or twice I did catch a blast
 >from the right yaw rocket to give me a correction back to the
 >left. I could feel the jets kick the airplane when they fired.

Again, nothing about White turning the plane around to allow ice
from the rear to pass by his window. Obviously he was positioned
more or less straight ahead and making minor adjustments in his
position with the reaction controls, aligning the plane for
proper reentry.

 >Q: Did you use the manual RCS at all going over the top?

 >A: I never touched them.

 >Q: What were the limits on the horizon going over the top? How
 >far could you see?

 >A: You could just see as far as you looked. I turned my head in
 >both directions, and you see nothing but the earth. It'' just
 >tremendous. You look off and the sky is real dark. I don't think
 >the impression would be much different than it was up around
 >250,000 ft, but I was impressed remarkably more than I was at
 >250,000 ft. It amazed me. I looked up and was able to pick out
 >San Francisco Bay and it looked like it was down over there off
 >the right wing and I could look out, way out. It was just
 >tremendous, absolutely tremendous. You have seen pictures from
 >high up in rockets, or these orbital pictures of what the guy
 >sees out there. That's exactly what it looked like. The same
 >thing.

 >Obtained Dec 5, 2001, from Edwards AFB Historian Mr. Ray L.
 >Puffer (ray.puffer@edwards.af.mil), Air Force Flight Test
 >Center/History Office, AFFTC/HO, 305 E. Popson Ave., Edwards
 >AFB, CA 93524-6595

I met Puffer at Edwards about 3 years ago when I stopped by for
a few hours to look into some known Edwards' UFO incidents.
(Also took the public tour and looked at the "stuffed" test
planes, including the X-15, on display outside. However, after
Sept. 11, I doubt if the place is open to the public anymore.)

Puffer, like Oberg, is a knee-jerk UFO debunker who loves to
laugh at the gullible UFO buffs. However, he did pull base
records for me, warning me that I would find nothing about these
sightings in any of the logs. He was right. There wasn't a hint
in any of the records that anything happened out of the
ordinary. (The incidents I was looking into were the mass
multi-sightings of July 8, 1947, which Puffer didn't even know
existed; the Gordon Cooper photographic incident of May 3, 1957;
and the radar/visual/jet intercept incident the night of Oct. 7,
1965.)

Jan Aldrich, in a recent Updates post on Nov 29. (see
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/nov/m29-008.shtml), also
noted that normal military logs and histories that he has
examined very rarely note such incidents, even though the
episodes may show up elsewhere, such as in communications, Blue
Book files, or other military intelligence files.

This is a good example of how the "absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence." Potentially sensitive information does not
typically appear in such routine records and is usually handled
through other channels.


David Rudiak








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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:57:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:20:18 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 EST
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Residue, probably -- maybe blistered paint flecking off the
 >nose. But frost? From where? Between the earlier high vibrations
 >and the high heat of friction, there shouldn't be any ice left
 >on the nose, or anywhere else on the skin of the plane, for that
 >matter.

We're at an impasse here: people with genuine experience with
space flight, including the X-15 pilot, thought the little
particles could have been ice. People who read a lot (and do
good research, true) insist it couldn't be true.

The larger object was clearly different from the little specks,
and doesn't sound like ice at all.

If it were denser than tiny particles, then of course it
wouldn't blow away as easily.

We don't know how long it stayed out there.


 >So the plane was pointed straight ahead, which the gullible UFO
 >believers assumed all along, because reentry loomed within a
 >minute or two and White was presumably not suicidal. He wasn't
 >about to turn the plane around.

Confirmations are better than assumptions, although when they
validate assumptions, you get points for good judgment.

Peter Merlin at the Dryden NASA history office just sent me this
stuff:

Part of the flight transcript reads as follows:

NASA 1: OK, looks like you're about the peak and speed brakes
out.

White: Roger. There's a lot of things out there. Absolutely is!
What's my angle of attack?

NASA 1: We don't have any better presentation than he does.
We're coming back down through, approaching 285. Anticipate a
position in correction turn to the right whenever you have the
ability to do so.

White: Roger. (garbled) absolutely (garbled) the view.

NASA 1: We're still not getting much on angle of attack.

White: OK, it's going to start going back, here we go.









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                  Cooper Photo Case [was: More On The X-15]

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:58:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:22:33 -0500
Subject: Cooper Photo Case [was: More On The X-15]


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 EST
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >I met Puffer at Edwards about 3 years ago when I stopped by for
 >a few hours to look into some known Edwards' UFO incidents.
 >Puffer, like Oberg, is a knee-jerk UFO debunker who loves to
 >laugh at the gullible UFO buffs. However, he did pull base
 >records for me, warning me that I would find nothing about these
 >sightings in any of the logs. He was right. There wasn't a hint
 >in any of the records that anything happened out of the
 >ordinary. (The incidents I was looking into were the mass
 >multi-sightings of July 8, 1947, which Puffer didn't even know
 >existed; the Gordon Cooper photographic incident of May 3, 1957;
 >and the radar/visual/jet intercept incident the night of Oct.
 >7, 1965.)

 >This is a good example of how the "absence of evidence is not
 >evidence of absence." Potentially sensitive information does not
 >typically appear in such routine records and is usually handled
 >through other channels.

The Edwards historian I talked with in 1983 had a clipping file
on the May 1957 case, including news stories in LA papers and a
California UFO newsletter.

However, you may have drawn a blank if you called it the "Gordon
Cooper photographic incident", because as my own research has
shown, Cooper had no connection with the event, the witnesses
involved never heard of him at the time.

The event itself, however, is fully documented -- film and all
-- in the Blue Book files.









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                  Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:23:05 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:25:18 -0500
Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:17:33 EST
 >Subject: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Dear Gentle Listers, Errol;

 >I wonder if any of you have seen the photos on Rense.Com of the
 >sundry UK 'amorphous' UFO, photographed by Anthony Woods.
 >Having never seen anything even remotely like this particular
 >object except in photos taken in Mexico, I find them fascinating
 >and would welcome commentary.

 >The latest set of images is at:

 >http://www.rense.com/general17/EXC.HTM

 >Jim Mortellaro


Hello Jimbo!

Interesting yes. To my eyes, it looks like two nearly spherical
objects ( one looks vaguely teardrop shaped in one shot ),
perhaps slowly rotating about one another, like two balloons
tethered together, or to a single payload.

The surfaces seem either silvery or at least highly reflective,
maybe like mylar which is often shiny but partly translucent.

It could be two flying saucers merging into a single UFO and
separating again, but I would put far higher odds on the balloon
angle, pending better information.

I see that the cameraman has been shooting parades of UFOs
recently, one sequence for 3 hours.

I did not read any description of the trajectory, accelerations,
or anything else to indicate these images are of not balloons.

I certainly don't see:

" .. evidence that confirms without any doubt the
  presence of advanced, unknown, unidentified
  flying machines on this planet. "

.....to quote the author of the web page.

But that's just me.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                      Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:36:16 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:30:07 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:27:42 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:29:55 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:50:50 -0600
 >>>Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >>He may recall, but whether or not he recalls "well" is another
 >>question entirely. Guessing that the acronym "APU" means
 >>attitude propellant unit or something similar, the attitude
 >>thrusters on the nose and wings of the craft used H2O2, which is
 >>not a cryogenic liquid. These thrusters emitted superheated
 >>steam as the exhaust product. It seems unlikely to me that
 >>steam would freeze into ice flakes under near-vacuum conditions
 >>on surfaces that had been heated to over 1000 degrees centigrade
 >>during passage through the lower atmosphere only seconds before.
 >>I've seen no indication of anything that could be cryogenic in
 >>front of the pilot's cockpit. The LOX tank and connections to
 >>the combustion chamber appear to be the only cryogenic
 >>components on the aircraft. They were behind the pilot.

 >An APU is an Auxiliary Power unit that burns hydrazine to create
 >hydraulic pressure to run aerosurfaces and engine gimbals. The
 >Space Shuttle has three of them, with exhaust ports at the front
 >base of the vertical tail. Water vapor is a by-product.

 >"Seeming unlikely to you" really doesn't cut it in terms of what
 >is, or is not, real in space -- seriously, no slap intended, but
 >strange things happen in space that are often contrary to
 >earthside experience. Both water and hydrazine freeze readily in
 >space because of robust evaporative cooling, despite sunlight or
 >structural temperatures. When I worked as a propulsion officer
 >monitoring OMS/RCS systems on early shuttle flights, the way we
 >detected thruster valve leaks was not through tank or line
 >pressure fluctuations -- which by Boyle's Law bounced around in
 >a 'spongy' fsahion as temperatures changed, sometimes through
 >adiabatic cooling during long burns -- but was via the
 >temperature sensor in the thruster nozzles. A drop in thruster
 >temperature meant that something was actively cooling the area
 >by evaporation/freezing -- and sure enough, when detected, these
 >leaks could often be spotted as 'snowstorms' by the crew at
 >sunrise/sunset, leading to some spectacular imagery (need I
 >mention there was an aft thruster leaking during STS-48?). Heck,
 >on Mercury, the cooling system used deliberate water freezing to
 >dump cabin heat, it was called a Water Spray Boiler (also, a
 >Flash Evaporator), and the shuttle has one, also, for use during
 >mission phases when the doors aren't open to expose the
 >radiators to deep dark cold space.

 >>Anything that White saw "going by his window" was
 >>moving from the nose toward the tail, and it is not at all
 >>likely to have been ice flakes.

 >Vehicle-generated debris can be any number of things, from any
 >number of sources. The nose was known to emit paint flakes,
 >exactly as you write. The nose also had thrusters which emitted
 >water as a byproduct. As you can see from the post-flight pilot
 >report, White had no problem with seeing a flow of small
 >particles from the nose, but he did notice that the bigger piece
 >-- about the size of his hand -- seemed to be different.

 >>Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
 >>and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
 >>more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
 >>plain-talking expected from the former.

 >I'm disappointed with your readiness to reject the first-hand comments of
 >people who were right there, with vague allegations of 'spin-doctoring', a
 >suggestion of deliberate fraud. Hey, it can happen, we're just trying to
see
 >what happened in this case.

Dear Mr. Oberg, Gentle Readers, Errol,

This post has to do not with this particular post of yours, Sir,
but rather with the entire series of posts I've had to endure
here. NASA is important to this nation's space program. It's
failures have disappointed me and many others in the past
fifteen plus years. I now have a clue.

I usually take the side of the underdog in most of my posts,
especially where the poor bastard is taking a lickin and keeps
on tickin. But in this case, I must take cumbrance with your
opinions, Sir.

Allow me to repeat, Errol, if I may, a story I've told on
UpDates some time ago. A true story and one which expresses my
most intimate feelings on your ... posts, Sir. Feelings which I
admit, are not in usual consort with my more benign and generous
nature ... again, when it comes to the underdog. Until now.

I was a young engineer on the OAO spacecraft, working for
Grumman and stationed at NASA Goddard in Greenbelt, Md. I was a
cocky kid, just out of school and with a good deal of
responsibility. Cocky or not, I took my responsibilities very
seriously. That flight article, for which I was the responsible
systems integration engineer, was _my_ spacecraft. It's the way I
accepted the responsibility. My attitude was, "Don't mess around
with my OAO!"

So when the NASA program manager at the time gave a progress
report at GSFC, and did not include the failure mechanism I had
uncovered, the one which, if failure occurred to a darlington
pair, the failure was catastrophic. "Too expensive and from the
statistical standpoint, not likely." Was the report they gave.

Well, Dad was working for a sub, at the time, Perkin Elmer. And
he helped write the book on Reliability and statistical QC. He
helped me do the math and voila, sure enough, the likelihood of
this can failing was a lot higher than NASA thought.

So, when this... this... person... finished his speech on how
well things were going, and asked if there were any questions, I
threw my hand up in the air like Horshack. He looked at me and
said, "Yes, _son_, what is your question?"

And I said, "Sir, can you tell me the temperature, the temperature
of the sand? Please?"

And he said, "Sand? Sand? What sand, _son_?"

And I said, "The sand you have your head buried in!"

He turned cherry red and needless to say I did not attend any
more high level meetings, even though I should have. But, I've
always prided myself on the size of my mouth and the value of
what comes out of it.

It all came back when OAO failed. Twice. And the failure
modality of that first messy launch was... guess what?

Mr. Oberg. With respect, I will not ask you the same question.


Dr. James S. Mortellaro









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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:11:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:32:23 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:27:42 -0600
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >An APU is an Auxiliary Power unit that burns hydrazine to create
 >hydraulic pressure to run aerosurfaces and engine gimbals. The
 >Space Shuttle has three of them, with exhaust ports at the front
 >base of the vertical tail. Water vapor is a by-product.

As I noted in a previous message, the fuel was actually hydrogen
peroxide. But that's really irrelevant since hot steam is not
going to freeze into ice on the hot surfaces of a hypersonic
aircraft in a near vacuum. And even if it could, the APUs were
behind the cockpit, not in the nose where any debris seen by
White would have to have originated.

 >"Seeming unlikely to you" really doesn't cut it in terms of what
 >is, or is not, real in space -- seriously, no slap intended, but
 >strange things happen in space that are often contrary to
 >earthside experience. Both water and hydrazine freeze readily in
 >space because of robust evaporative cooling, despite sunlight or
 >structural temperatures. When I worked as a propulsion officer
 >monitoring OMS/RCS systems on early shuttle flights, the way we
 >detected thruster valve leaks was not through tank or line
 >pressure fluctuations -- which by Boyle's Law bounced around in
 >a 'spongy' fsahion as temperatures changed, sometimes through
 >adiabatic cooling during long burns -- but was via the
 >temperature sensor in the thruster nozzles. A drop in thruster
 >temperature meant that something was actively cooling the area
 >by evaporation/freezing -- and sure enough, when detected, these
 >leaks could often be spotted as 'snowstorms' by the crew at
 >sunrise/sunset, leading to some spectacular imagery (need I
 >mention there was an aft thruster leaking during STS-48?). Heck,
 >on Mercury, the cooling system used deliberate water freezing to
 >dump cabin heat, it was called a Water Spray Boiler (also, a
 >Flash Evaporator), and the shuttle has one, also, for use during
 >mission phases when the doors aren't open to expose the
 >radiators to deep dark cold space.

You can't seriously be suggesting that evaporative cooling of
water droplets could produce "snow flakes" the size of a human
hand, as White described the object, can you?

You seem to have missed a fine point: the X-15 wasn't a space
shuttle. It wasn't traveling at space shuttle altitudes; it was
at an altitude where atmospheric drag was still a significant
factor on any "snow flakes". The water exhausted by the attitude
thrusters was already in the vapor state (superheated steam) so
there was no evaporative cooling.

 >>Anything that White saw "going by his window" was
 >>moving from the nose toward the tail, and it is not at all
 >>likely to have been ice flakes.

 >Vehicle-generated debris can be any number of things, from any
 >number of sources. The nose was known to emit paint flakes,
 >exactly as you write. The nose also had thrusters which emitted
 >water as a byproduct. As you can see from the post-flight pilot
 >report, White had no problem with seeing a flow of small
 >particles from the nose, but he did notice that the bigger piece
 >-- about the size of his hand -- seemed to be different.

Yes, it did, didn't it?

 >>Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
 >>and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
 >>more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
 >>plain-talking expected from the former.

 >I'm disappointed with your readiness to reject the first-hand
 >comments of people who were right there, with vague allegations
 >of 'spin-doctoring', a suggestion of deliberate fraud. Hey, it
 >can happen, we're just trying to see what happened in this
 >case.

Spin-doctoring isn't fraud. If it was, they'd have to build more
prisons to hold all the bureaucrats and politicians who do it.
Dana (sorry about getting the name wrong), said that the object
White observed "turned out" to be ice, giving the impression
he's talking about the results of some investigation, but
without exactly saying it. It could _not_ have turned out to be
ice because that simply doesn't make sense. Paint flakes might
make sense, but then it should have been pretty easy to
determine if strips of paint the size of a hand had flaked off
the nose of the aircraft. All they would have had to do was look
at the plane after it landed. Given White's obvious excitement
over his observation, it's odd that it seems to have aroused so
little interest among project scientists.









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                      California Reports For 11-21-99?

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:58:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:50:43 -0500
Subject: California Reports For 11-21-99?


Good Day List,

I hope all is well and I have a request for any sighting reports
you may have for November 21, 1999 for California, around San
Gregorio, a small town South of San Francisco on the coast, off
US Highway 1.

Any reports you send would only be used for researching a
sighting report I have.

Thank you very much for any help you can give me.


Take good care,

Brian









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                  Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:08:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:55:16 -0500
Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:17:33 EST
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?


Dear Gentle Listers, Errol;

 >I wonder if any of you have seen the photos on Rense.Com of the
 >sundry UK 'amorphous' UFO, photographed by Anthony Woods.
 >Having never seen anything even remotely like this particular
 >object except in photos taken in Mexico, I find them fascinating
 >and would welcome commentary.

 >The latest set of images is at:

 >http://www.rense.com/general17/EXC.HTM

Thank you very much for this excellent photograph of a child's
reflective mylar balloon, of the type which are often sold under
the brand-name 'Flying Saucer'.

Clearly demonstrated is the way that the highlight reflection,
which is a single circle on the smooth, convex side of the
object is broken into two or more bright areas of light as it
moves to the side of the balloon where it is reflected off the
uneven surface where the two plastic sides are welded together.

This is clearly visible in the last photograph in the sequence
where there is a row of small reflections circling the object as
light reflects off the creases on the plastic along the join.

It might well be worth checking if there were any school fetes
or other such events in the Bedhampton area on the day in
question.

These photos will be added to Magonia's 'Pelican Collection' of
easily solved IFOs, for the benefit of future generations of UFO
researchers.



John Rimmer

<j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk.









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                     Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:12:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:59:04 -0500
Subject: Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Velez


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: How to Investigate UFOs
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:55:35 -0500

 >How should one go about investigating phenomena that appear
 >unexpectedly to unprepared observers?


Hi Jan,

In all seriousness (and speaking from first-hand knowledge) the
closest 'everyday-life' population that is comparable, involves
crime witnesses. I think the most experienced people in
conducting investigations of witnesses that were caught with
their proverbial 'pants down' would be foot-soldiers in the war
against crime... police officers/detectives.

The procedures and dynamics of investigating and interrogating a
witness, any witness, is the same whether it involves seeing
something as exotic as a UFO or witnessing a robbery or a
murder. A 'witness' is a 'witness' regardless. Why try to
re-invent the wheel. Check out the procedures used by homicide
detectives. It should prove helpful and enlightening to anybody
interested in conducting any kind of an objective investigation.
In fact, I'm really surprised that more UFO investigators
haven't adopted the tried and proven techniques that are
employed by people who do it for a living day after day, year
after year.

Talk the gendarmes!


Regards,

John Velez









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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:38:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:36:16 EST
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Mr. Oberg. With respect, I will not ask you the same question.

 >Dr. James S. Mortellaro


Huh? James, if you've read anything I've written on NASA's
head-up-it's-ass official attitude towards outside advice, or to
safety-minded engineers who fought politically-inspired
management choices, you'd see that we were more than soul-mates,
we were spiritual clones. Just take a look at my new book
'Star-Crossed Orbits -- Inside the US/Russian Space Alliance',
links here:

Cover: http://www.jamesoberg.com/image/orbits.jpg

http://www.space.com/spacelibrary/books/library_oberg_011207.html

http://www.msnbc.com/news/665506.asp

Praise quotations:
http://shop.mcgraw-hill.com/cgi-bin/pbg/0071374256.html?id=9YBZiDtP

Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071374256/qid=1005748903/sr=1-1/ref=
sr_1_6_1/103-9948798-5590252

Barnes and Noble:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0CCA9WETWO&
mscssid=C7JPN2009PM98JMTK0SHJDDMA3J307G5&isbn=0071374256

Ordering from Oberg:
http://www.jamesoberg.com/books/commentary.html


November 21, Jeff Rense Show (one hour into show, 2 hours)
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=961066&location=dallas

November 25, 2001, Jeff Rense Show (3 hours)
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=963050&location=dallas












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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:51:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:51:24 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:11:47 -0600
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >As I noted in a previous message, the fuel was actually hydrogen
 >peroxide. But that's really irrelevant since hot steam is not
 >going to freeze into ice on the hot surfaces of a hypersonic
 >aircraft in a near vacuum. And even if it could, the APUs were
 >behind the cockpit, not in the nose where any debris seen by
 >White would have to have originated.

Correction accepted, but my point is, water is still the
by-product. And liquid water (hydrazine, too) cools by
evaporation, so the remaining material quickly -- within seconds
-- freezes. This applies to effluents from the APU and from the
thrusters -- which ARE nose-mounted. Water vapor exiting from
the shuttle's flash evaporator, in gaseous form, also gives rise
to very striking snowstorms, as many videos have shown.


 >You can't seriously be suggesting that evaporative cooling of
 >water droplets could produce "snow flakes" the size of a human
 >hand, as White described the object, can you?

No, it's clear from all the new information on White's sighting
that the bigger thing he saw was a very unlikely ice structure
of any kind. The snowflake behavior does establish that
vehicle-generated debris will fly along with the vehicle plenty
long enough to be noticed and remarked on. And heavier/denser
material will be less affected by the miniscule aero forces
there.

 >You seem to have missed a fine point: the X-15 wasn't a space
 >shuttle. It wasn't traveling at space shuttle altitudes; it was
 >at an altitude where atmospheric drag was still a significant
 >factor on any "snow flakes".

Have you ever seen videos of the Space Shuttle ET jettison,
especially closeups around the propellant line doors? All sorts
of little junk is floating around, flying in different
directions as it breaks off the structure. And the altitude of
ET jettison is LOWER than the altitude White was at in his X-15.
So I suggest that actual flight experience, documented on video
and by eyewitnesses, trumps your theoretical calculations of
what _must_ happen in that environment.

 >Given White's obvious excitement
 >over his observation, it's odd that it seems to have aroused so
 >little interest among project scientists

Maybe, just maybe, the folks on the scene at the time understood
the phenomenon better than you or I.








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   Dec > Dec 7

                 The Real Story Of 'The Mothman Prophecies'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:09:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:09:04 -0500
Subject: The Real Story Of 'The Mothman Prophecies'

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/316677p1.html

The Real Story Of 'The Mothman Prophecies'

IGN FilmForce talks with cryptozoologist Loren Coleman about the
spooky true-life events that inspired the upcoming Richard Gere
film.

by Scott B.

2001-12-06

If you've been following news on films to be released in 2002,
you have probably heard about a movie called 'The Mothman
Prophecies' starring Richard Gere and Laura Linney, and directed
by Mark Pellington (Arlington Road). You might even have seen a
poster or a trailer for the film, due out January 25, 2002,
which comes with the ominous warning "Based on true events." But
what are those true events? And what the heck is a 'Mothman',
anyway? IGN FilmForce recently had the opportunity to talk with
Loren Coleman, famed 'cryptozoologist' (literally "the study of
unknown animals") and author of fifteen books, including the
upcoming Mothman and Other Curious Encounters, about the whole
Mothman story.

"On November 15, 1966, four individuals - two married couples -
were at what was essentially a lovers lane in Point Pleasant,
West Virginia," explains Coleman, who has been researching
so-called "Fortean Phenomena" (from Charles Fort) since 1960.
"These two couples saw two giant red eyes, and it very much
scared them...they didn't know what to make of it."

This, then, was the first reported sighting of the 'Mothman',
which Coleman goes on to say "was described as 6-to-7 feet tall
with red eyes and no head, as if the eyes were in the breast
area, and with huge wings." The creature "came toward them. They
took off and the creature followed them right up to the city
limits of Point Pleasant." The incident was reported to the
local sheriff, who went to the lovers lane and "searches around,
sees a puff of smoke in a nearby area from possibly this
creature taking off and landing again."

While Coleman reports that the account was "ridiculed in the
local press," something very strange began to happen: "More and
more people started seeing this creature. For the next thirteen
months, over 200 individuals had some interaction with some
strange phenomena - and about a hundred of those said they
actually saw Mothman."

And why that bizarre name - Mothman? Apparently, it was the work
of "some copyeditor at the local newspaper. At the time, the
Batman series was on TV, so they didn't want to call it
'Batman,' but it did have wings, so the copyeditor called it
'Mothman.' We have no other information than that - I've been
trying to track that copyeditor down for twenty years."

But the creepy events in Point Pleasant during 1966-67 weren't
limited to appearances of the Mothman. "There were [also]
mutilated dogs, UFO sightings, and other things going on," says
Coleman. And that's where John Keel, a longtime friend of
Coleman's and author of the book The Mothman Prophecies, came
in.

"About a month after [the initial sightings], John Keel got an
assignment to go there as a news reporter," explains Coleman.
"He sort of showed up, had a very low kind of profile; John was
on a contract to write a book about UFOs."

As Keel began to talk to people and gather information, the
journalist found himself getting more deeply involved in the
events, to the extent that "There were entities that
communicated with John by phone." Coleman explains that as Keel
analyzed the events, he found Point Pleasant to be "a vortex of
phenomena, and couldn't really tell one from the other. It was a
scary situation for John."

Whatever one thinks of the validity of Keel's claims, there's no
arguing the horror of what happened next. Keel had begun to be
given "prophecies" by the entities he was dealing with in Point
Pleasant, one in particular that said that "when President
Johnson turned on the Christmas lights at the White House, the
whole northeast was going to go into a blackout." However, by
that point, Coleman says that Keel had "started to get fooled by
the phenomena.

"On December 15, John Keel is in his apartment in Manhattan,"
Coleman continues. "[Waiting for the blackout] with his bottled
water and his batteries, and nothing happens. About six minutes
later, on the TV set across the bottom: 'Bridge collapses across
Ohio River.' And he just freaks out."

Keel "freaked out" because the bridge in question was the Silver
Bridge, which crossed the Ohio River between Gallipolis, Ohio,
and - you guessed it - Point Pleasant, West Virginia. "67 people
fell into the river. 46 died. They found 44 bodies," says
Coleman. "Several people who died were related to witnesses of
Mothman."

The collapse of the Silver Bridge has been seen as the climax of
Keel's Mothman experience, but Coleman is quick to say "I don't
think it stopped. What I think is that it has continued on but
people did not report it. It never got to the fever pitch of,
say, a Roswell."

John Keel published his account of these events in 1975 -
interestingly, until Coleman's upcoming book, "Keel's had been
the only book. There have been chapters and mentions, but
there's never been a movie or a documentary. Mothman is a case
that has almost been too scary for people to get close to. At
the time, everyone knew about Mothman but it was so bizarre no
one could characterize it."

And, apparently, neither does the upcoming film version, of
which Coleman has seen footage as well as consulting with the
director. "My understanding is that Mothman is described and
talked about but not seen in the movie," he says. "But I don't
know - it's 95% done and they could always change their mind."

As discussion turns to the movie, a natural question comes up:
Does this kind of exposure help or hurt the work done by
Coleman, who considers himself "an investigative reporter" who
"comes into these things very skeptically." After all, this
relatively obscure story is about to become very famous due to
the film. Does Coleman worry that the movie will encourage a
rash of "Mothman" sightings or hoaxes? "I'm a professor of
documentary film back in Portland, Maine, and a lot of my work
deals with Behavior Contagion and the media effect, so that's a
very interesting question to me," explains Coleman. "After Close
Encounters of the Third Kind came out, everybody was predicting
that we'd have this rush of fake UFO reports and all of that. It
doesn't happen. What happens is that people get more interested
in the subject, dig up old reports, or - if they have seen
things - they talk about it."

For those interested in 'Mothman' lore, the film's official
website is up and running, presenting a detailed chronology of
the events in Point Pleasant. Also, Coleman himself maintains
the website The Cryptozoologist, which has information on his
own research into the Mothman and other phenomena.

---

UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist

http://www.anomalist.com/





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   Dec > Dec 7

                      Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:17:20 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:32:23 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:38:52 -0600


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:36:16 EST
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Mr. Oberg. With respect, I will not ask you the same question.

 >>Dr. James S. Mortellaro

 >Huh? James, if you've read anything I've written on NASA's
 >head-up-it's-ass official attitude towards outside advice, or to
 >safety-minded engineers who fought politically-inspired
 >management choices, you'd see that we were more than soul-mates,
 >we were spiritual clones. Just take a look at my new book
 >'Star-Crossed Orbits -- Inside the US/Russian Space Alliance',
 >links here:

<snip>

Dear James, List, Errol ...

Uh, James... Sir... uh... damn! I just don't know how to tell
you this. Hmmmm.

OK. I'll take a try at it. See, what I writ (two years ago I
coudn't even speel engeneeer and now I are one!)... what I writ
up there, which was snipped, was that your posts, all of 'em
pract tickally, are much like what that program manager sounded
like.

Ah, never mind. No wonder we missed Mars on the English System
and hit Big Jup on the metric.


Jim Mortellaro








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                Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:33:42 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:07:08 -0500
Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Mortellaro



 >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:08:54 +0000
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
 >Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:17:33 EST
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?


 >Dear Gentle Listers, Errol;

 >>I wonder if any of you have seen the photos on Rense.Com of the
 >>sundry UK 'amorphous' UFO, photographed by Anthony Woods.
 >>Having never seen anything even remotely like this particular
 >>object except in photos taken in Mexico, I find them fascinating
 >>and would welcome commentary.

 >>The latest set of images is at:

 >>http://www.rense.com/general17/EXC.HTM

 >Thank you very much for this excellent photograph of a child's
 >reflective mylar balloon, of the type which are often sold under
 >the brand-name 'Flying Saucer'.

 >Clearly demonstrated is the way that the highlight reflection,
 >which is a single circle on the smooth, convex side of the
 >object is broken into two or more bright areas of light as it
 >moves to the side of the balloon where it is reflected off the
 >uneven surface where the two plastic sides are welded together.

 >This is clearly visible in the last photograph in the sequence
 >where there is a row of small reflections circling the object as
 >light reflects off the creases on the plastic along the join.

 >It might well be worth checking if there were any school fetes
 >or other such events in the Bedhampton area on the day in
 >question.

 >These photos will be added to Magonia's 'Pelican Collection' of
 >easily solved IFOs, for the benefit of future generations of UFO
 >researchers.

Dear John, (God I love writing "Dear John Letters"), List,
Errol,

That would be two for baloons. OK-fine. The videos I saw of the
Mexico 'amorphous' thingies were also claimed to have been
baloons. I ain't objecting, mind you, I am not an artist nor a
photographer. In fact, a good friend gave me a digital camera,
one of the best I am told, and I am afraid to go near it.

However it is difficult for me to conceive how the Mexico
objects could have been baloons because of the manner in which
they were changing shapes. Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm
younger than that now.

 >object is broken into two or more bright areas of light as it
 >moves to the side of the balloon where it is reflected off the
 >uneven surface where the two plastic sides are welded together.

 >This is clearly visible in the last photograph in the sequence

I just have one comment on your comment. How can you be so sure?

Again, I ain't objecting to your objection, just aksing. After
all, I spent most of my life in a closet and the rest in a test
toob.


Jim









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                Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:25:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:22:02 -0500
Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Hatch



 >From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: California Reports For 11-21-99?
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:58:52 -0800

 >Good Day List,

 >I hope all is well and I have a request for any sighting reports
 >you may have for November 21, 1999 for California, around San
 >Gregorio, a small town South of San Francisco on the coast, off
 >US Highway 1.

 >Any reports you send would only be used for researching a
 >sighting report I have.

 >Thank you very much for any help you can give me.


Hello Brian:

The only 11 NOV 1999 case I have at all was in
Ohio:  #17781: 1999/11/21  01:30 hrs
84:09W  40:38N 3333  NAM USA OHI
S/CRIDERSVILLE,OH: 2/I-75: PLAIN SLNT SLVR SPHERE
goes slowly in FOG: LITES FIELD RANDOMLY: >N
/R170 FILERS FILES: Volume 9 # 48 (FARMLANDS)


I have nothing at all in California near that date.

Here's a useful page for looking up recent sightings:

Davenport's NUFORC. This particular page allows you to look up
events by date of event, date of report, by state, even by shape
of UFO ..

http://www.msatech.com/nuforc/webreports.html

This page is by month (Nov. 1999) and lists over 400 reports of
various types:

http://www.msatech.com/nuforc/webreports/ndxe199911.html


Again, the Cridersville event is listed here:

http://www.msatech.com/nuforc/webreports/S11121.html

... with much more detail than I can list. There were 3 or 4
other sightings on 21NOV99 but again, none in California.

The nearest CA case in Davenport's catalog was in Bellflower, CA
on 20NOV99, far to the south.

You may want to check the same catalog in case I missed
something.


Sorry

- Larry Hatch










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                     Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:01:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:26:36 -0500
Subject: Re: How to Investigate UFOs - Hall


 >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:12:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: How to Investigate UFOs

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: How to Investigate UFOs
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:55:35 -0500

 >>How should one go about investigating phenomena that appear
 >>unexpectedly to unprepared observers?

 >Hi Jan,

 >In all seriousness (and speaking from first-hand knowledge) the
 >closest 'everyday-life' population that is comparable, involves
 >crime witnesses. I think the most experienced people in
 >conducting investigations of witnesses that were caught with
 >their proverbial 'pants down' would be foot-soldiers in the war
 >against crime... police officers/detectives.

 >The procedures and dynamics of investigating and interrogating a
 >witness, any witness, is the same whether it involves seeing
 >something as exotic as a UFO or witnessing a robbery or a
 >murder. A 'witness' is a 'witness' regardless. Why try to
 >re-invent the wheel. Check out the procedures used by homicide
 >detectives. It should prove helpful and enlightening to anybody
 >interested in conducting any kind of an objective investigation.
 >In fact, I'm really surprised that more UFO investigators
 >haven't adopted the tried and proven techniques that are
 >employed by people who do it for a living day after day, year
 >after year.


John et al.,

Having (probably) conducted more UFO case investigations than
most anyone on this list, I will chip in a few cents worth. (I
even viewed the NASA X-15 "snowflake" film many years ago at a
NASA repository, but I won't go into that.)

Police detectives are one of a few groups of investigators who
have some appropriate skills for investigating UFO reports,
primarily due to their skill in witness interrogation. However,
they are looking for evidence (witness testimony) bearing on a
crime.

To put it in simple terms, UFO investigators (1) need to be
familiar with all types of IFOs, and (2) need to ask the sort of
questions that will help to determine the likelihood or
unlikelihood of an observation being of something prosaic.
Newspaper reporters rarely do this, so that most newspaper
reports are of dubious value by themselves.

A UFO sighting ought to be considered in terms of being a
"phenomenon of nature" and care taken to obtain the most
accurate witness description possible that will allow meaningful
analysis and comparison to other sightings of the phenomenon (or
phenomena).

Witnesses often intermix more or less objective sighting data
with interpretation or assumption, and a skilled investigator
needs to understand that and take steps to filter out the wheat
from the chaff.

I could write a long essay on this topic, but will spare the
List.


  - Dick








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                  Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:34:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods? - Rimmer


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:33:42 EST
 >Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:08:54 +0000
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UK 'Amorphous' UFO by Woods?

 >>object is broken into two or more bright areas of light as it
 >>moves to the side of the balloon where it is reflected off the
 >>uneven surface where the two plastic sides are welded together.

 >>This is clearly visible in the last photograph in the sequence

 >I just have one comment on your comment. How can you be so sure?


Just looking at the pickchers.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                          Secrecy News -- 12/07/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:05:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:29:24 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/07/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 7, 2001


**      INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION FOR 2002
**      WORKING WITH THE CIA
**      SUING THE CIA
**      INFO ON DETAINEES SOUGHT
**      AL QAEDA TRAINING MANUAL


INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION FOR 2002

House and Senate conferees have completed work on the
intelligence authorization act for fiscal year 2002, providing a
substantial 8% increase in intelligence spending, according to
the Associated Press.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64102-2001Dec5.html

The final legislation does not contain the most dramatic
expansion of government surveillance authority that the
executive branch had requested, but it does include a number of
lesser "technical amendments" that will facilitate
counterintelligence and counterterrorism surveillance.

The new act also rescinds the controversial 1995 CIA guidelines
on recruitment of informants, directs the Attorney General to
report on the need for any new authority to combat "leaks" of
classified information, and provides assorted other tweaks to
intelligence policy. See the new conference report (H.Rep.
107-328) here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_rpt/hrep107-328.html


WORKING WITH THE CIA

If you are a U.S. military commander working in the field with
CIA support personnel, you should clearly explain to the CIA
officers what it is that you need.

However, "extraneous screaming and yelling are
counterproductive."

That is one lesson proffered by former CIA case officer Garrett
Jones in "Working with the CIA," published in the latest issue
of Parameters (Winter 2001-2002), the US Army War College
Quarterly.

Jones seeks "to illuminate the working relationship between the
military and the CIA" based on his own experience.  "It is the
incoming brief I wish I could have given to the Ranger Task
Force commander and his senior staff when they arrived in
Somalia," where he served with the CIA.

A mostly pedestrian account, it includes some notable insights
into joint military-CIA activities from a perspective that is
rarely represented.  See the text of the article here:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/01winter/jones.htm


SUING THE CIA

The Federation of American Scientists filed suit today against
the Central Intelligence Agency seeking declassification of
intelligence budget data from 1947 and 1948.

The CIA's refusal to disclose this antiquated information
highlights the corruption of the government secrecy system with
unusual clarity.

"Since budget figures from Fiscal Years 1997 and 1998 could be
disclosed without damage to national security or compromise of
intelligence sources and methods," FAS argued in the complaint
filed today, "it strains credulity to claim, as CIA does, that
disclosure of budget data from fifty years earlier would have
such adverse effects."

The text of the complaint is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947int.html


INFO ON DETAINEES SOUGHT

Civil liberties groups this week filed the first lawsuit
requesting disclosure of basic information about individuals
arrested and detained since September 11.

"There is mounting evidence that secrecy is being invoked to
shield serious violations of individual rights and not for
legitimate investigative purposes," according to Kate Martin,
Director of the Center for National Security Studies, which
brought the suit with 15 other organizations.

Justice Department officials have repeatedly stated that the
rights of all detainees are being upheld.  But at every turn,
the options for independent oversight of the Department's
activities have been curtailed.

"Instead of the Attorney General simply announcing that they are
respecting the Constitution, we need the evidence that will show
whether that is true," said Ms. Martin.

A copy of the complaint may be found on the ACLU web site here:

http://www.aclu.org/court/detainee-foia-complaint.pdf


AL QAEDA TRAINING MANUAL

The Department of Justice yesterday released excerpts from what
it termed an "Al Qaeda Training Manual" that provides
inspiration and instruction for would-be jihadis.

The manual, translated from an Arabic original acquired by the
Manchester, England police during a search of an al Qaeda
member's home, was introduced earlier this year at the embassy
bombing trial in New York.

"The Department is only providing ... selected text from the
manual because it does not want to aid in educating terrorists
or encourage further acts of terrorism," according to a notice
on the Justice Department web site.

The translated excerpts of the manual, as released by the
Justice Department, are posted here (in a large, multi-megabyte
PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/manualpart1.pdf

More than 70 days of trial transcripts from the case USA v.
Usama bin Laden, which was conducted in New York between
February and July of this year, have been acquired and posted
online by Cryptome.org.  It is an immensely rich, disturbing and
informative record that may be found here:

http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
         subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

         unsubscribe secrecy_news [your email address]
Secrecy News is archived at:
       http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                 Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:30:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:44:27 -0500
Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike


 >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:25:35 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99?

 >>From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: California Reports For 11-21-99?
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:58:52 -0800

 >>Good Day List,

 >>I hope all is well and I have a request for any sighting reports
 >>you may have for November 21, 1999 for California, around San
 >>Gregorio, a small town South of San Francisco on the coast, off
 >>US Highway 1.

 >>Any reports you send would only be used for researching a
 >>sighting report I have.

 >>Thank you very much for any help you can give me.

 >Hello Brian:

 >The only 11 NOV 1999 case I have at all was in
 >Ohio: #17781: 1999/11/21 01:30 hrs
 >84:09W 40:38N 3333 NAM USA OHI
 >S/CRIDERSVILLE,OH: 2/I-75: PLAIN SLNT SLVR SPHERE
 >goes slowly in FOG: LITES FIELD RANDOMLY: >N
 >/R170 FILERS FILES: Volume 9 # 48 (FARMLANDS)

 >I have nothing at all in California near that date.

<snip>


Hi Larry

Thank you very much for your help. I certainly will be looking
into this and a few other places as well. I had a report from a
gal who claims to have witnessed with another person a craft of
a huge size on the date I mentioned. So I was looking for any
other reports to compare with.

Just to keep things rolling, here is a report about a "boar
Mute" in which some may be interested in reading.

Still waiting for the RCMP's investigation report and pictures
on the cow mute in BC. Sure takes time, glad I have lots of it.
Now I have taken and pasted the boar report as I received it.

I also have a meeting next week with the BC Wildlife people and
we are going to go over some cases of animal mutes which they
have come across that were a bit strange.

Take care and thank you again Larry.

Brian

-----

So, on to the boar mutilation. I'll answer you friends e-mail
about the boar mute also. Glad to help anyone who is a
researcher.

This happened about 6 years ago. The location was in the El
Dorado Hills, approximately 25 minutes north of Folsom towards
Lake Tahoe off of Hiway 50. My daughter believes that it is an
old Druid site which is now owned by PG&E. She was told by her
ex-boyfirend that the Fong family owned it prior to PG&E. She
and Rick liked to go there and one evening saw a UFO streak by
in the sky. So, knowing my interest they took me to the
location. Really interesting with old ruins in which they
incorporated crystals from the land into their structures. I
found it fascinating. As we were walking along I pointed to an
area that had some branches piled up and a bad smell was coming
from the area. I am a curious person so said "let's take a
closer look". We were not prepared for what we saw. I wish that
I had had a camera. It was a boar, laying on it's side. We did
not get too close because of the odor, but all the skin had been
removed from it's face. Where it's heart would have been located
was a completely clean dish shaped area indented and bloodless.
The same situation where his anus etc. had been located. Now, I
do not know why the branches were over it, loosely. Looked like
someone tried to cover it up. I also do not know if boars are
common to this area. The precision of the circles on the animal
and the bloodlessness were amazing. The removal of the skin on
the face was really disturbing. What could have done this? I
have since seen other animal mutilation pic and descriptions
that are similar, but not in reference to a boar! Is this
strange? Don't know.

I prevailed upon my daughter's boyfriend to report it to the
police. He did. I asked him to do a follow-up. He did. He said
that the police said that they did not have a report and did not
know anything about it. Ho hum. Case closed!







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                      Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:29:40 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:46:03 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:11:47 -0600
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:27:42 -0600
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >>An APU is an Auxiliary Power unit that burns hydrazine to create
 >>hydraulic pressure to run aerosurfaces and engine gimbals. The
 >>Space Shuttle has three of them, with exhaust ports at the front
 >>base of the vertical tail. Water vapor is a by-product.

 >As I noted in a previous message, the fuel was actually hydrogen
 >peroxide. But that's really irrelevant since hot steam is not
 >going to freeze into ice on the hot surfaces of a hypersonic
 >aircraft in a near vacuum. And even if it could, the APUs were
 >behind the cockpit, not in the nose where any debris seen by
 >White would have to have originated.

 >>"Seeming unlikely to you" really doesn't cut it in terms of what
 >>is, or is not, real in space -- seriously, no slap intended, but
 >>strange things happen in space that are often contrary to
 >>earthside experience. Both water and hydrazine freeze readily in
 >>space because of robust evaporative cooling, despite sunlight or
 >>structural temperatures. When I worked as a propulsion officer
 >>monitoring OMS/RCS systems on early shuttle flights, the way we
 >>detected thruster valve leaks was not through tank or line
 >>pressure fluctuations -- which by Boyle's Law bounced around in
 >>a 'spongy' fsahion as temperatures changed, sometimes through
 >>adiabatic cooling during long burns -- but was via the
 >>temperature sensor in the thruster nozzles. A drop in thruster
 >>temperature meant that something was actively cooling the area
 >>by evaporation/freezing -- and sure enough, when detected, these
 >>leaks could often be spotted as 'snowstorms' by the crew at
 >>sunrise/sunset, leading to some spectacular imagery (need I
 >>mention there was an aft thruster leaking during STS-48?). Heck,
 >>on Mercury, the cooling system used deliberate water freezing to
 >>dump cabin heat, it was called a Water Spray Boiler (also, a
 >>Flash Evaporator), and the shuttle has one, also, for use during
 >>mission phases when the doors aren't open to expose the
 >>radiators to deep dark cold space.

 >You can't seriously be suggesting that evaporative cooling of
 >water droplets could produce "snow flakes" the size of a human
 >hand, as White described the object, can you?

 >You seem to have missed a fine point: the X-15 wasn't a space
 >shuttle. It wasn't traveling at space shuttle altitudes; it was
 >at an altitude where atmospheric drag was still a significant
 >factor on any "snow flakes". The water exhausted by the attitude
 >thrusters was already in the vapor state (superheated steam) so
 >there was no evaporative cooling.

 >>>Anything that White saw "going by his window" was
 >>>moving from the nose toward the tail, and it is not at all
 >>>likely to have been ice flakes.

 >>Vehicle-generated debris can be any number of things, from any
 >>number of sources. The nose was known to emit paint flakes,
 >>exactly as you write. The nose also had thrusters which emitted
 >>water as a byproduct. As you can see from the post-flight pilot
 >>report, White had no problem with seeing a flow of small
 >>particles from the nose, but he did notice that the bigger piece
 >>-- about the size of his hand -- seemed to be different.

 >Yes, it did, didn't it?

 >>>Maybe too much time passed between when Duran was a test pilot
 >>>and when he was a NASA bureaucrat. His "recollection" sounds
 >>>more like the spin-doctoring of the latter rather than the
 >>>plain-talking expected from the former.

 >>I'm disappointed with your readiness to reject the first-hand
 >>comments of people who were right there, with vague allegations
 >>of 'spin-doctoring', a suggestion of deliberate fraud. Hey, it
 >>can happen, we're just trying to see what happened in this
 >>case.

 >Spin-doctoring isn't fraud. If it was, they'd have to build more
 >prisons to hold all the bureaucrats and politicians who do it.
 >Dana (sorry about getting the name wrong), said that the object
 >White observed "turned out" to be ice, giving the impression
 >he's talking about the results of some investigation, but
 >without exactly saying it. It could _not_ have turned out to be
 >ice because that simply doesn't make sense. Paint flakes might
 >make sense, but then it should have been pretty easy to
 >determine if strips of paint the size of a hand had flaked off
 >the nose of the aircraft. All they would have had to do was look
 >at the plane after it landed. Given White's obvious excitement
 >over his observation, it's odd that it seems to have aroused so
 >little interest among project scientists.

Dear Lan, List, Errol,

Ever wonder why it is that heads of organizations, any
organization, are either the best of the best or the worst of
the wurst? I have. And having consulted for many companies, and
many CEO's, I can vouch for the truth of that statement. It
ain't no opinion.

I am visibly impressed by the amount of research done by a
choice few of our list in an effort to get at the truth. You
folks deserve a kudo or three. Most sincerely, I compliment you
on your work, gentlemen and can only hope that the same amount
of erudition, intellect and general schmatz will someday be
applied to the question of the UFO conundrum. Not by a choice
few, but by the choice many.

And now, I can tell you the truth... the only place I ate wurst
and loved it was in Bavaria. In'it interesting that the same may
be said of the best of the crop of space experts? Uncle Von
Braun, the guy whose family also make them coffee makers and
beard shaving thingies? And of course, the redoubtable, J.
Jaime, whose Gesundt moniker hails from the Black Forest. Little
known that Gesundt was Saphardi ... bet yous didn't know that,
huh?

We call him the Sicilian Darkman from Meunchin. Munchin. Munich.


Jim







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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:26:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:13:26 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Maccabee


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:57:30 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 EST
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Residue, probably -- maybe blistered paint flecking off the
 >>nose. But frost? From where? Between the earlier high vibrations
 >>and the high heat of friction, there shouldn't be any ice left
 >>on the nose, or anywhere else on the skin of the plane, for that
 >>matter.

 >We're at an impasse here: people with genuine experience with
 >space flight, including the X-15 pilot, thought the little
 >particles could have been ice. People who read a lot (and do
 >good research, true) insist it couldn't be true.

 >The larger object was clearly different from the little specks,
 >and doesn't sound like ice at all.

The larger object was described as looking like a piece of
paper. The implication is thin material but of some considerable
size (many inches) in width or length or both.

Not to complicate matters <LOL> nor to bring up unrelated
subjects (other sightings), but I feel I should point out that a
thin 'UFO' looking like a card was observed at Oak Ridge during
a period of sightings of anomalous objects in the fall of 1950.
On Oct 15, 1950 3 security guards and another man saw a "card
with a long thin tail" moving in the vicinity of a restricted
area.  It appeared to carry out intelligent maneuvers.  (see
UFO-FBI Connection, page 170) Hmmmmm..... Alice in Wonderland?

Perhaps the Red Queen had her minions in outer space at the time
Major White was zipping by?









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                Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:53:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 14:13:57 -0500
Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Velez


 >From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99?
 >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:30:40 -0800

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:25:35 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99?

 >>>From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: California Reports For 11-21-99?
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:58:52 -0800

 >>>Good Day List,

 >>>I hope all is well and I have a request for any sighting reports
 >>>you may have for November 21, 1999 for California, around San
 >>>Gregorio, a small town South of San Francisco on the coast, off
 >>>US Highway 1.

 >>>Any reports you send would only be used for researching a
 >>>sighting report I have.

 >>>Thank you very much for any help you can give me.

 >>Hello Brian:

 >>The only 11 NOV 1999 case I have at all was in
 >>Ohio: #17781: 1999/11/21 01:30 hrs
 >>84:09W 40:38N 3333 NAM USA OHI
 >>S/CRIDERSVILLE,OH: 2/I-75: PLAIN SLNT SLVR SPHERE
 >>goes slowly in FOG: LITES FIELD RANDOMLY: >N
 >>/R170 FILERS FILES: Volume 9 # 48 (FARMLANDS)

 >>I have nothing at all in California near that date.

 ><snip>

 >Hi Larry

 >Thank you very much for your help. I certainly will be looking
 >into this and a few other places as well. I had a report from a
 >gal who claims to have witnessed with another person a craft of
 >a huge size on the date I mentioned. So I was looking for any
 >other reports to compare with.

 >Just to keep things rolling, here is a report about a "boar
 >Mute" in which some may be interested in reading.

 >Still waiting for the RCMP's investigation report and pictures
 >on the cow mute in BC. Sure takes time, glad I have lots of it.
 >Now I have taken and pasted the boar report as I received it.

 >I also have a meeting next week with the BC Wildlife people and
 >we are going to go over some cases of animal mutes which they
 >have come across that were a bit strange.


Hi Brian,

I hope I'm not repeating something that's already been suggested
but... just in case; don't forget to touch base with Peter
Davenport. If reports were made, Peter would have been the one
to receive them. You may also want to try George Filer. (Of
'Filer's Files')


Regards,

John Velez









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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:55:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:17:36 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:26:44 -0500
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Maccabee


 >Not to complicate matters <LOL>nor to bring up unrelated
 >subjects (other sightings), but I feel I should point out that a
 >thin 'UFO' looking like a card was observed at Oak Ridge during
 >a period of sightings of anomalous objects in the fall of 1950.
 >On Oct 15, 1950 3 security guards and another man saw a "card
 >with a long thin tail" moving in the vicinity of a restricted
 >area.  It appeared to carry out intelligent maneuvers.  (see
 >UFO-FBI Connection, page 170) Hmmmmm..... Alice in Wonderland?

Without getting into over-my-head stuff like Reynolds number,
fluid viscosity and shock waves, I did some figuring on the
pressures and accelerations involved.  If the object was about 7
inches long in the direction of the wind and had a density of
around 3g/cc (like some paints) it could have been moved about 2
feet in 5 seconds and 8 feet in 10 seconds by wind pressures
equivalent to those of a 10 mph wind at sea level. Viewed from
40 feet away (White's estimate of the distance), these would
have been easily observable motions, and the object would have
been outta sight in 30 seconds. Yet White's comments don't
indicate he saw any motion at all relative to the aircraft.

And if White had viewed the object edge-on and it had a
thickness comparable to paper, say 0.007 inches or 1/1000 its
length, it would have "caught" the wind like a sail and been
blown a distance of about 80 feet in only one second. Overall,
I'd expect something like a piece of paper to have a jerky,
fluttering motion: slowing down as it presented itself edge-on
to the wind and abruptly speeding up as its broad surface spun
into the wind. If the whatever-it-was appeared to be just
hanging there "tumbling slowly" (or maybe rotating?), it would
explain why White seemed to think it was unusual, even for
something that looked like a piece of paper.

 >Perhaps the Red Queen had her minions in outer space at the time
 >Major White was zipping by?

We'll probably never know. The documentation of any conclusions
about the nature of the object reached by X-15 project
scientists seems to have gone down the rabbit hole.









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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 14:26:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:19:31 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:51:44 -0600
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

 >>Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:11:47 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>As I noted in a previous message, the fuel was actually hydrogen
 >>peroxide. But that's really irrelevant since hot steam is not
 >>going to freeze into ice on the hot surfaces of a hypersonic
 >>aircraft in a near vacuum. And even if it could, the APUs were
 >>behind the cockpit, not in the nose where any debris seen by
 >>White would have to have originated.

 >Correction accepted, but my point is, water is still the
 >by-product. And liquid water (hydrazine, too) cools by
 >evaporation, so the remaining material quickly -- within seconds
 >-- freezes. This applies to effluents from the APU and from the
 >thrusters -- which ARE nose-mounted. Water vapor exiting from
 >the shuttle's flash evaporator, in gaseous form, also gives rise
 >to very striking snowstorms, as many videos have shown.

Forgetting the space shuttle for the moment, the effluent of the
X-15 nose thrusters was superheated steam. The thrusters used
hydrogen peroxide. Could some droplets of unburned h2o2 escaped
in liquid form and then frozen into small ice flakes? Maybe. I
don't know. That could explain the small "things" White reported
outside of the right-hand window, as could flecks of paint
knocked off by the thrusters. White didn't seem overly impressed
by those objects, so neither am I. What did seem to impress him
was the object he said was the size of his hand that he saw out
of the left-hand window.

 >>You can't seriously be suggesting that evaporative cooling of
 >>water droplets could produce "snow flakes" the size of a human
 >>hand, as White described the object, can you?

 >No, it's clear from all the new information on White's sighting
 >that the bigger thing he saw was a very unlikely ice structure
 >of any kind. The snowflake behavior does establish that
 >vehicle-generated debris will fly along with the vehicle plenty
 >long enough to be noticed and remarked on. And heavier/denser
 >material will be less affected by the miniscule aero forces
 >there.

Denser objects would be affected much less, but some motion
should still have been noticeable for a flake of paint. And
there's the problem that no obvious source for such a large
flake has been identified. As I said previously, a quick visual
inspection of the aircraft after it landed should have
immediately revealed whether 6 or 7-inch long strips of paint
had pealed off the nose. That should have been of some concern
to the project engineers, if true.

 >Maybe, just maybe, the folks on the scene at the time understood
 >the phenomenon better than you or I.

Of course. But since we don't really have the foggiest notion of
what it was they actually understood, there's no conclusion we
can draw from that.









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                 Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:06:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:22:37 -0500
Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99? - Vike


 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:53:13 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99?

 >>From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: California Reports For 11-21-99?
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:30:40 -0800

 >Hi Brian,

 >I hope I'm not repeating something that's already been suggested
 >but... just in case; don't forget to touch base with Peter
 >Davenport. If reports were made, Peter would have been the one
 >to receive them. You may also want to try George Filer. (Of
 >'Filer's Files')

Hi John

Thank you, also, for the information, I am looking into it as we
speak. (NUFORC & Filer's Files) Trying to keep on the ball. I
mentioned the other day I was waiting for a cattle mutilation
story, or the investigation report from the RCMP. Well I got the
report from the RCMP last night. The 17 pages report was faxed
to me. So have most of it ready to go. Also after the fax came
in from Falkland, British Columbia RCMP I picked up the phone
and gave them a call to thank them very much for helping out in
this case. I talked with the constable for about a half hour and
three more mutes came to light here in British Columbia. So I
will be on the phone come Monday morning to gather reports from
each of these cases. Funny, I was after one, but it looks as
things have got expanded a lot. Keeps me busy anyway.

I will say this though, I couldn't have had more help from this
constable. he was very helpful and I certainly do appreciate all
his help.

I also appreciate everyones help here on the List, means a lot
to get your help in matters.


Take care,

Brian











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                 Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 17:21:08 -0500
Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...

The Cydonian Imperative
12-9-01

Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


[image]

The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

The exact archaeological/geological history of Iran's peculiar
"platform" is presently unknown. As noted previously, NASA has
written the Face off as a "hill" based on one JPL employee's
personal position that the Face "reminds" him of a hill. JPL's
"hill" is the perfectly natural-looking Middle Butte formation,
exposed by Lan Fleming of the Society for Planetary SETI
Research. If the formation in the Mid-East is natural, it is
obviously a far superior example of bisymmetry occurring via
normal geological forces than Middle Butte. If, however, Iran's
"platform" is a deliberately sculpted monument, then we are
presented with the opportunity to see what a "Face-like"
terrestrial artifact has to tell us about the enigmatic visage
on Mars' surface. Such comparative anthropology is a crucial
component in any attempt to assess possible extraterrestrial
artifacts.

----

JPL Misrepresents the Face...Again

Related links:

www.vgl.org

Lan Fleming (see article above) has written a new article
demonstrating that JPL's Face elevation data is fatally flawed.
Unfortunately, this inexcusable misrepresentation of space
science data is nothing new in the strange, ongoing case of the
Face on Mars. As has been clear since JPL released the
contrast-enhanced "catbox" version of the Face in 1998, the
curiously anthropmorphic "pile of rocks" on Mars is the subject
of a surprising degree of duplicity undertaken at the expense of
the American public. Perhaps even in these times of "coming
together" in the wake of the terrorist attack of September 11,
it would behoove the American people to keep a watchful eye on
its alleged "experts."

To read Fleming's analysis, select the top article
from the following page:


www.vgl.org/vglmars.htm

----

"New Frontiers in Science" Online!

Related links:

www.martianenigmas.com

The eagerly awaited online journal "New Frontiers in Science,"
co-launched by Mars Face veteran Dr. Mark Carlotto, is now
online. The catch is it's pay-per-view. But for anyone seeking
objective, rationally argued papers on unusual phenomena,
"Frontiers" is unmatched. Its debut incarnation offers a
devastating rebuttal to NASA/JPL's explanation for the Cydonia
Face, with commentary from Dr. Mark Carlotto, Dr. Horace Crater
and Lan Fleming. This is a site worth supporting.

www.newfrontiersinscience.com

----

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

-end-








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:12:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >12-9-01

 >Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >[image]

 >The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
within 1 minute of reading the post.

I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
striking or important.

I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
wildly?

"Seek and ye shall find".......


Regards,

Joe









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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:05:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:15:17 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:55:18 -0600
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Without getting into over-my-head stuff like Reynolds number,
 >fluid viscosity and shock waves, I did some figuring on the
 >pressures and accelerations involved.

Did the other particles behave according to your calculations?
The particles released during shuttle ET jettsion at even lower
altitude? No, apparently they didn't.

Either the particles were breaking the laws of physics, or the
error lies elsewhere.










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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:25:00 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:40:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000


 >>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>12-9-01

 >>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>by Mac Tonnies

 >>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>[image]

 >>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >within 1 minute of reading the post.

I don't think so. But whadda I know under the affluence of
substances. And then there are the voices in my head.

 >I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

Cheeses, I would like to see... oh... say a dozen more. And
the more the merrier. Who knows, there may be a plethora of of
lookalike Mars faces. So what?

 >I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >striking or important.

 >I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >wildly?

 >"Seek and ye shall find".......

Until then, what's the point in speculating? And the next
sentence tells us to seek, and we will find. Seems to be a tad
oxymoronic to this Grippler. Also seems to me that speculation
and seeking the truth go hand in hand with research, dunn'it?
Hell, what this world (and it's researchers) need is a tad more
imagination. And a dollop of curiosity.

Just look at Kon Tiki.

Never mind.


Jim Mortellaro









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              Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:11:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:40:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... -


 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >12-9-01

 >Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >[image]

 >The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

It didn't look enough like a face for me to be at all sure what
was the face or its features. Is it a face in profile, with the
profile provided by the body of water lying to its right? Unless
there's a front-looking face there with left-right symmetry, as
well as a symmetric base "platform," I wouldn't see the
resemblance. I imagine there are a lot of rivers that have
carved out large meanders that almost loop back upon themselves
that would resemble this Irani "platform." Without a symmetric
face on it, though, I don't see the resemblance.


Jim Deardorff










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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:08:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:43:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

<snip>

 >....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >within 1 minute of reading the post.

Please note that both of the examples you cite are artificial.

 >I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

Certainly. But can you provide us with _one_ natural formation
that resembles a humanoid face from a variety of angles?

 >I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >striking or important.

I'm not making any wild propositions. But the shape and layout
were similar enough that I thought Cydonia research would be
well-served by taking a closer look.

 >I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >wildly?

I wasn't aware I was "speculating wildly." I was just pointing
out an interesting formation here on Earth that happens to share
some attributes with a controversial formation on Mars.

 >"Seek and ye shall find".......

I hate to disillusion, but speculation and seeking go hand in
hand.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
      Visit http://mactonnies.com










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                     FACETS Update On NASA FOIA Request

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:22:51 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:47:07 -0500
Subject: FACETS Update On NASA FOIA Request


[The following bulletin is by David Jinks, founder of FACETS.
  --M.T.]

12-10-01

Update from Formal Action Committee for Extraterrestrial Studies


According to FACETS' legal counsel, a Freedom of Information Act
inquiry into NASA's case file on FACETS' original requests may
be filed shortly. If fulfilled, the FOIA request could generate
memos, e-mails, phone records and other documents exchanged
between and created by NASA factions regarding our recent
communications with Dr. Weiler.

FACETS' initial FOIA filing is pending. Due to the request's
complexity, NASA has requested more time to fulfill the FOIA
request. We wait eagerly for their future responses.

(The initial FOIA filing requested all records in the possession
of NASA and its contractors relating to several Viking and MGS
images of Cydonia, and selected Lunar Orbiter III and Apollo
imagery, including any analysis or interpretation of the images
conducted by the space agency.)

FACETS is also pursuing its request for additional imaging
sites. No word on the additional sites has been received from
NASA since FACETS submitted it in early June 2001.

FACETS may also seek to acquire the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter
(MOLA) data used in NASA's May 24, 2001 "hit piece" on the "face
on Mars." New analysis by engineer Lan Fleming has brought some
interesting facts to light regarding NASA's use of MOLA data to
denounce the Face (again).

Please check out Fleming's intriguing and potentially explosive
paper, which concludes, among other things, that JPL may have
used the wrong data in its haste to extinguish the Face
discussion once and for all:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/face/mola/facemola.html


Though litigation is never the preferred means of acquiring
data, a lawsuit for breach of contract is still a possibility at
this point.

For additional links, please visit:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

-end-








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:33:16 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:49:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>12-9-01

 >>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>by Mac Tonnies

 >>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


 From McGonagle post:

 >I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >striking or important.

I disagree Joe, I believe structures like the one in Iran could
help researchers greatly in solving the mystery of the face on
Mars. By comparing the way a natural structure and a unnatural
structure is made up here on Earth, it would be then possible to
determine if a structure on Mars was likely to be natural or
unnaturally made or to be politically incorrect, Natural or Man
made. It would seem to me that if one wanted to leave something
behind for others many years into the future to see, it would be
logical to build something like the pyramids or a large man made
structure like what we are talking about and seeing here.

Nature has rules it must obey when building something, we on the
other hand totally disregard these rules and this is very
evident in the structures we build. Which is good as it makes
for determining Natural and unnatural structures much easier.
Even as far away as Mars

 >I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >wildly?

One would expect a survey will be carried out in the next few
years, whether we are aloud to see this information in full and
uncensored remains to be seen.

As for speculating wildly? Hmm, a great many newly found facts
ect seem like wild speculation at the time, because it is so
new. Elements reaching into the 200 range on the periodic table
was considered as wild speculation just a few years ago now, but
today it is common knowledge that these do exist. Some forms of
speculation does help in opening the way for others to
understand. When people in a civilisation like ours are raised
to believe in only one frame of mind like we are, then anything
outside of these teachings is wild speculation.

Therefore speculation is a very important part of our coming to
understand much of what we don't understand, which I dare say is
the point of speculating.


Chris. (Tophar)









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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 333

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:07:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:50:38 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 333


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 333 -  8 NOVEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- A Drop In The Number Of Italian UFO Reports
    In October
- The Death Of Fernando Lamperi
- Issue No. 5 Arrives Of European UFO Journal


A Drop In The Number Of Italian UFO Reports In October

A slump has been confirmed in the number of UFO news reports
published by Italian newspapers, the result of the shift in mass
media attention to the dramatic news events occurring at the
international level.

In fact, only 42 clippings appear with reference to the UFO
argument, these gathered over the last month by the special
agency Eco della Stampa for the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
there being a sharp drop compared with the preceding months
(monthly data from the last ten years are available on the
C.I.S.U Internet site: http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ecotot.htm).

The trend was also reflected in the number of sighting reports,
which abruptly diminished during the second half of September:
the data relative to the month of October (which confirm
nonetheless the end of the summer wave) will be distributed by
the C.I.S.U. next week.


The Death Of Fernando Lamperi

Only a short amount of time after his colleague Sergio Conti,
another member of the Sezione Ufologica Fiorentina (SUF) is also
dead in Florence: Fernando Lamperi was 87-years-old and, since
the Fifties, was (along with Solas Boncompagni and Pier Luigi
Sani) one of the founders and driving forces of what was
originally called the "Gruppo Clipeologi Fiorentini."

Author of various articles for the monthly Il Giornale dei
Misteri, ("Journal of Mysteries"), which in 1971 had entrusted
the SUF with the editing of its UFO materials, Lamperi was
co-author of the three volumes in the series "UFO in Italia"
("UFOs in Italy") which, between 1975 and 1989, capped the long
work of gathering and categorizing of the Italian case log, the
undertaking of which was already pioneered by the SUF dating
back to the Sixties.

[Communication by Solas Boncompagni; collaboration by Gianni
Settimo.]


           Issue No. 5 Arrives Of European UFO Journal

The new issue has arrived of European Journal of UFO and
Abduction Studies, the sole European magazine about UFOs which
proposes the adoption of selection criteria normally applied by
academic publications. The Journal is published by Totton
College of Southampton in Great Britain, and is managed by Craig
Roberts, professor of the only course on ufological studies
offered by a scholastic body on the "Old Continent."

In this issue: articles on psychological correlations of the UFO
experience; new cases and statistics from Germany and from
Romania; and flying saucers and the Cold War behind the curtain
of military intelligence.

Contents and abstracts of all published issues may be obtained
on the  Internet site of the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(http://www.cisu.org/ejufoas.htm). Subscribers to the C.I.S.U.
or other member associations may furthermore purchase the two
2001 issues (and 2000 back-issues as well) at the special price
of 30,000 Lire annually, by direct payment to the mail current
account (No.17347105) of the Cooperativa UPIAR
(http://www.cisu.org/bancaccp.htm).


Collaborators on this edition were: Solas Boncompagni, Roberto
Labanti and Gianni Settimo.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:

cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:25:00 EST
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>>12-9-01

 >>>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>by Mac Tonnies

 >>>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>>[image]

 >>>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >>....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >>also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >>within 1 minute of reading the post.

 >I don't think so. But whadda I know under the affluence of
 >substances. And then there are the voices in my head.

 >>I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >>examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

 >Cheeses, I would like to see... oh... say a dozen more. And
 >the more the merrier. Who knows, there may be a plethora of of
 >lookalike Mars faces. So what?

Here's a few billion to start with-everyone that has a head
superficially resembles the rock formation/ancient
monument/stargate (delete any that do not apply).

 >>I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >>striking or important.

 >>I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >>before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >>wildly?

 >>"Seek and ye shall find".......

 >Until then, what's the point in speculating? And the next
 >sentence tells us to seek, and we will find. Seems to be a tad
 >oxymoronic to this Grippler. Also seems to me that speculation
 >and seeking the truth go hand in hand with research, dunn'it?
 >Hell, what this world (and it's researchers) need is a tad more
 >imagination. And a dollop of curiosity.

You miss the point - I had the good fortune to see an
installment of 'UFO's: Then And Now'on the History Channel this
morning (I'm not sure if programming is the same where you
live), and there was an interview with someone called David
Pieri who was part of the team that worked on the Viking lander
project. To quote him:


"Those of us on the lander team looked at one of the boulders on
the surface nearby and we decided we could see the initials of
every team member in the boulder that was ten feet away from the
lander."


What I mean is, if you look for something eg UFOs at the time
of the WTC attack, or faces of the devil in the flames, you
stand a very good chance of finding them, or if you are looking
for similar structures on earth to those found on Mars (or vice
versa) you will find them.

 >Just look at Kon Tiki.

As you no doubt know, Kon Tiki was a practical experiment
designed to test a theory that early South American natives had
the technology to reach the Islands of Polynesia. A theory is
more than speculation, in that there is some reason for holding
the theory.

Perhaps you have a theory of you own linking the formation on
Mars to the formation in Iran? If so, I apologise for using the
term "speculation".

 >Never mind.

I don't.


Regards, Joe









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:07:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:58:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:25:00 EST
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>>12-9-01

 >>>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>by Mac Tonnies

 >>>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>>[image]

 >>>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >>....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >>also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >>within 1 minute of reading the post.

 >I don't think so. But whadda I know under the affluence of
 >substances. And then there are the voices in my head.

Perhaps they both came from Mars? Now that is speculating
wildly.

 >>I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >>examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

 >Cheeses, I would like to see... oh... say a dozen more. And
 >the more the merrier. Who knows, there may be a plethora of of
 >lookalike Mars faces. So what?

Maybe the masks are based on a natural formation? That's why
they look like the Face On Mars? Now thats speculating (notice
the difference?

 >>I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >>striking or important.

 >>I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >>before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >>wildly?

 >>"Seek and ye shall find".......

 >Until then, what's the point in speculating? And the next
 >sentence tells us to seek, and we will find. Seems to be a tad
 >oxymoronic to this Grippler. Also seems to me that speculation
 >and seeking the truth go hand in hand with research, dunn'it?
 >Hell, what this world (and it's researchers) need is a tad more
 >imagination. And a dollop of curiosity.

There's a big difference between speculating and speculating
wildly. (See above for the difference.)

I think the last thing ufology needs is more imagination and
wild speculation.

How about good research and rational thought.









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   Dec > Dec 10

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.10.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:28:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:01:32 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.10.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

December 10, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
12.10.01


'Ginger' Like 'Pair of Magic Sneakers'
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/03/scooter.unveiling/index.html


How Will We React To First Contact? The SETI Institute Wants
Your Answers
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_social_011206.html


Physicists: No Sign of 'God Particle'
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/12/06/physics.reut/index.html

Wings Over Mars: Flapping Robotic Insects Could Extend Range of
Rover Missions
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_flapper_011205-1.html


New Research Reveals Mars' Lumpy Magnetic Field
http://www.Colorado.EDU/NewsServices/NewsReleases/2001/1519.html


Space Telescope Finds Piece of Martian Atmosphere Puzzle
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_water_011129.html


NASA To Discuss Leonids, Mars and Early Earth at AGU
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm01top.html


Does Life Color Europa? Get Paid to Find Asteroids, More
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/science_briefs-1.html


Slippery Surface of Europa Slides, Migrates around Moon
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/europa_icecrust_011130.htm=
l


Pluto Mission Design Chosen; Must Be Ready For 2006 Launch
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/pluto_update_011129.html


Astronomers Image Red Dwarf Star, One Type of Dark Matter
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/dark_matter_011205.html


NASA Report: Space Travel 'Inherently Hazardous' to Human Health
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/space_health_011205-1.h=
tml


____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, including the Weekly Briefing, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


THE ERAS PROJECT

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2001









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:32:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:16:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>12-9-01

 >>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>by Mac Tonnies

 >>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>[image]

 >>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >within 1 minute of reading the post.

 >I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

Why is it daft to be familiar with the appearance of structures
on Earth that are known or suspected to be artificial if you're
interested in searching for artificial structures on other
planets?  Of course, it's also equally important to know what
natural structures look like. Middle Butte in Idaho is a good
example of what one kind of natural formation looks like:

http://www.VGL.org/webfiles/mars/face/middlebutte/middlebutte.htm

And it doesn't look to me like the Face landform in Cydonia at
all, NASA claims notwithstanding.

Here's another landform, Emerald Mound, that does look something
like the Face in general shape:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/structcmp/structcmp.htm

This Indian mound is, of course, artificial.










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   Dec > Dec 10

                       Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:03:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg
 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:05:49 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:55:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Without getting into over-my-head stuff like Reynolds number,
 >>fluid viscosity and shock waves, I did some figuring on the
 >>pressures and accelerations involved.

 >Did the other particles behave according to your calculations?
 >The particles released during shuttle ET jettsion at even lower
 >altitude? No, apparently they didn't.

 >Either the particles were breaking the laws of physics, or the
 >error lies elsewhere.

I think I'd have to know more about the type of debris involved
before I concluded that there was any error at all. I'd expect
the debris would be a lot more substantial in size during the
separation of a large tank from the space shuttle than particles
from an unknown source on the nose of an X-15.









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   Dec > Dec 11

                             Abducted By Aliens?

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:10:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:49:25 -0500
Subject: Abducted By Aliens?


Dear Listers,

Perhaps this can help.
Perhaps not.

Mike Woods.

------

Do you want the voices in your head and memory losses to stop?
You have probably been abducted by aliens and they are
communicating with you telepathically. I suggest you make one of
these:

http://www.stopabductions.com/









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   Dec > Dec 11

                           The Pyramids Of Maslow

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:24:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:51:19 -0500
Subject: The Pyramids Of Maslow


Humbly submitted as a measure of what we've lost, continue to
lose, and know to get back. This points up the value, utility,
and validity of the different drumming individual, each of us to
one degree or another, and provides a valid framework from which
to reach further in that rewarding attempt to increase ones
satisfying grasp...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Pyramids of Maslow

An Epic song
by Alfred Lehmberg

It's called "self actualization," and it comes to one with luck
-- if one's found out its existence, and ones courage measures
up. A cosmic drug, but safer (in fact healing, I should say).
Surely, vanquishing the shadows as it drives them far away. It's
built up, like a pyramid, just one level at a time, and when
it's been constructed there's such treasure one might find!

Why, one might look for miles, friend, and perceive the grandest
things; one could feel very deeply, but could still detach from
things; and one could SEE, at last, some "thing" - for what it
really was, and write it down for you and me, describing what it
does...

The FIRST tier of this pyramid's a wide based, harsh, affair.
Requirements must dictate what the 'real world' shares. Food -
and plenty of it, food for health, and day to day. Food that
feeds the body (and the mind I'm quick to say). Food that's
never ending, food that's always there, food that won't distract
you from that 'upward' path so near. Without it one must perish;
without it one looks down; without it one is looking for its
smell or taste and sound. Without food one will perish and shall
think of nothing else; One's, at the least, distracted as one
tightens at ones belt.

The NEXT tier of this pyramid's 'almost' as wide and harsh. It
presupposes shelter, a roof, some clothes - a hearth. Ones life
requires sanctuary, security - retreat. Refuge and good cover
are essential, basic needs. Without it one's distracted from a
self-affirming path. Without it one is doomed to beg - and
grovel for a laugh! Without it one is lost at sea without a hook
to use. Without it one will suffer if his home has been abused.

The THIRD tier is relaxing and it gives one time to think. It
hinges on security - or how closely lies the 'brink'. It's
SAFETY that concerns one - no 'gators in the swamp... as one
might work to drain it (?) - be undistracted by their "romp"?
It's protection from disaster, and defense against disease, it's
redress from all the worrying if one gets up off ones knees.
It's a loss of all ones anxiousness, that distraction from the
path... that ruins satisfaction, and runs a motor out of gas.
With safety one has time to think - to ponder, more, the stars .
. . to give some thought to flying things, like saucers and
guitars.

The FORTH tier's near as massive though maligned -
misunderstood. Worshipped and detested, call it lust or
something 'good'. It's tumultuous, a wildcard! It can make you
sick as hell. It's like dancing with the stars and hearing
ringing - pealing bells. Providing for ones basic drive it's
woven into love, or pounded into razor blades and used to prod
and shove. One shall _not_ rise above it... this tyranny of
genes - denied it sneaks upon you, and shall visit you with
'dreams'. A column for ones total drive, it shall not be
dismissed. This tier of your potential is the tier that would be
'kissed'.

. . . And then one wants "belonging" as a FIFTH tier finds its
place. One wants to feel useful and... a PART of something, Ace!
And, this is fine and dandy 'till it's used to take your hand,
and then lead you down some prim rose path - mere fodder to be
damned. One finds belonging to ones SELF a better path, you see
- a path so ever upward in a climb to make one free. Free from
despotism that will take away ones edge, free of harsh elitists
that would have us live THEIR dread. Free from all behaviorists,
their programs and their chains, free from all the guilt
imposed, the charges, and the blame. Belonging's fine until it's
used to cause one further pain. It's, then, a mechanism for a
collar on your brain.

Oh, then there's recognition, and rewards that that entails. A
SIXTH tier may be added, and one reaches, grasps... or fails.
Yes, here there's contribution. Here, ACHIEVEMENTS can be made
that makes repairs or shreds and tears - to clarify or fade.
One's competence unquestioned (?) and esteem needs justly met
(?), one looks around for what is left, to pick up, savor - GET!
Perhaps one takes the high road and decides, instead, to give
... in a manner chance providing one - with WHAT one can
believe. Perhaps it is the time one has... to put her hand on
things... undistracted by the children that still fall -
torrential rain. Perhaps it is the time one has to clarify his
mind, to look instead into a light he's 'warned' would strike
him blind?

The SEVENTH level's sweeter than the pyramid implies. Greater
than its sum of parts, a synergy's contrived. It's here there's
elevation that your 'God' has even feared. It's here there comes
advancement as one cuts away ones fear. It's here there is
progression as the grasp assumes its reach. It's here, perhaps
advancement as the reachers turn to teach. It's here, mayhap,
improvement of an efficacious kind; it's here one knows the
_pleasure_ of the perspicacious mind.

At seven one's 'self-actualized' and is reaching for the
stars... one touches shining levels that are bright as golden
bars! "Reach" and "grasp" become as one, and magic happens fast.
Reality is sorted out, and firmly gripped at last. Acceptance is
ones common sense for others as they are -- themselves, the
world or what's outside... the space between the stars.

The flavor's spontaneity. The behavior is the creed - the
evidence considerable... for routine there's little need. The
problem's at the center of the point of the concern, the self is
secondary (though the hardest to be learned). The theme is rare
detachment, the "forest for the trees". Gestalt is common -
usual... avoids behaviorism's fleas.

Requiring modest privacy so the thinking bubbles up, these
'actualized' are worth the time they spend apart from us. They
change the world's thinking as they think the thoughts they do.
Improving our humanity, they can see a problem through. Required
(?) - an independence from distraction lower down on the levels
of their pyramid that they've built on quaking ground. They NEED
their grand autonomy that they EARN by giving back... useful
fruits of thoughtful labor as they take us 'there' and back!

Resistance is mechanical to any dogma one has brought.
Stereotyped behaviors are eschewed as more than not. They don't
judge, but don't participate; not flamboyant, they don't try...
to stretch the unconventional to a point one should despise.
They seek the common welfare, and an increase of the same.
They're not apart from empathy so that suffering is tamed.
Relationships are deeper (with a few), and less is more.
Superficiality is detested to its core. They see the democratic
as the path to be maintained, where misery is shared on out,
thereby, wiping out that pain. The joy is shared the same damned
way, but increases for the daring. The reward's a satisfaction
we achieve for earnest sharing!

...And then comes their transcendence, they don't cope, they
SOAR and CLEAVE! Environment's a treasured thing that keeps one
off her knees. Creation is the answer and the fund of real
wealth; it satisfies the 'hunger', and provokes a better health.
It brings a PEAK EXPERIENCE ; it is RAPTURE ; it is JOY; it's
self regenerating so there's independence, boy! It's excitement,
and it's insight, and it's not for just a few! More could well
achieve it with their structures so imbued.

Imbued with what, you're asking? Well, imbued with what
supports! A better wage, and time to think, clean WATER, by
report. The path is SELF-constructed in a pyramid one makes to
reach the sky and grasp the truth from charlatans and fakes.
Expand upon potential! Elevate your mind, and cleave to soar
unlimited, unbound, and unconfined!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Self-actualization. More could (should) have it, and all would
(shall) be IMPROVED for these having it. Read on.


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







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   Dec > Dec 11

                        Area 51 Cammo Dudes On Strike

From: Glenn Campbell <books@ufomind.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:21:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:56:04 -0500
Subject: Area 51 Cammo Dudes On Strike


I'd like to get out of the Area 51 business, but I just recieved
and anonymous phone call a few minutes ago. The male caller, who
sounded in his 50s, had only this to say: "The Cammo Dudes are
on strike."

I did some checking around, and sure enough, the guardians of
our favorite secret base/alien stronghold (the Tora Bora of
ufology) have not reported for work. They are now picketing the
EG&G offices in Las Vegas, as well as the "Janet" terminal at
McCarran airport where most Area 51 workers start their day.

Apparently, their grievances are wages and forced overtime since
Sept. 11 (protecting our base from terrorists). Presumably,
their supervisors are now manning the border, and I wouldn't be
surprised if they called up some military units to to assist.

There should be an article in tomorrow's Las Vegas
Review-Journal at:

http://www.lvrj.com

For a refresher on Area 51 and the "Cammo Dudes" see my site at:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/area51

BTW: Here's my theory on the whereabouts of Osama bin Ladin --
Tora Bora is an UNDERGROUND BASE, right? Osama took the
subterranian shuttle to DULCE, NEW MEXICO and changed trains for
LAS VEGAS. I have reliable information that he was seen last
night at the CIRCUS CIRCUS BUFFET, which proves that he has no
taste whatsoever.


Glenn Campbell
Former Area 51 Warlord








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   Dec > Dec 11

                    Security Guards For 'Nowhere' Strike

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:59:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:59:22 -0500
Subject: Security Guards For 'Nowhere' Strike

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Dec-11-Tue-2001/news/17638293.html


Tuesday, December 11, 2001
Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal

Security guards for 'nowhere' strike for contract, higher pay

By Keith Rogers
Review-Journal

A group of 70 security guards known as the "camo dudes" walked
off their jobs Monday in Las Vegas and at the covert military
installation known as Area 51, a place they said they can't talk
about.

"Use your imagination," union President Vernell Hall said when
asked where he worked as he and more than a dozen other striking
security officers displayed "On Strike" signs on Haven Street
near McCarran International Airport.

That is where nondescript passenger jets, known as Janet planes,
routinely take the guards and other workers to the installation
on the dry bed of Groom Lake, 90 miles north of Las Vegas, a
place they referred to only as "nowhere" and "out of town."

Hall, leader of the Security Police Association of Nevada, an
in-house collective bargaining unit, said the association's
members decided to go on strike after three months of
negotiations for a new contract with their employer, EG&G
Technical Services Inc., ended in a stalemate.

Hall said the issues include lack of adequate wages and
benefits.

"There's been too much overtime since Sept. 11. Overtime on top
of overtime," Hall said.

Greg Rentchler, security manager for EG&G, confirmed that about
70 guards went on strike early Monday at the company's Grier
Drive offices and at "remote locations."

"They work at remote test locations. They support the Nellis
(Air Force) ranges," Rentchler said.

"We have a close relationship with these guys, and they are in
negotiations as we speak," he said.

Rentchler said supervisors are manning the posts vacated by the
striking guards.

He said the guards previously held a contract with another
company, EG&G Special Projects, until a new one was signed in
1996 with EG&G Technical Services Inc. He said EG&G Technical
Services Inc. holds a contract with the federal government to
provide services for the Department of Defense, including a
security guard force.

Although Rentchler would not give details about his reference to
"remote locations," a source familiar with the guard force said
last week that the guards would strike at 3 a.m. Monday. The
source said many of the guards had been assigned to Area 51, the
much-publicized, 38,400-acre Groom Lake installation where
high-tech U.S. aircraft are tested.

It is the same place where former workers at the installation
have charged that coatings for radar-evading stealth fighter
jets were burned in open trenches, sending toxic clouds into the
air that made them ill.

Glenn Campbell, who operates the Internet bookstore Aliens on
Earth and formerly directed an Area 51 watchdog group, said he
received an anonymous call Monday from a man who said "the camo
dudes are on strike."

Campbell often has referred to the guards as "camo dudes"
because of the camouflaged uniforms they wear while patrolling
places where public lands border restricted areas around the
Groom Lake installation.

While pickets paraded outside the ramp for Janet planes at
McCarran, another group sat in lawn chairs outside EG&G
Technical Services offices a few miles away on Grier Drive. One
striking security officer at that location, Bill Hull, said he
wants "fair and equitable treatment from our company."

A 17-year employee, Hull said he hasn't received a pay raise in
"14 or 15 years" and said he lost at least 25 percent of his pay
when the contract was switched to EG&G Technical Services in
1996.

Hull, wearing a baseball cap emblazoned with a U.S. flag flanked
by two alien-face pins, said he is paid $15.05 per hour but
should be making at least $16.03 per hour.

He said the guards work 12-hour shifts, staying four days "out
of town," before flying back to Las Vegas and getting three days
off.

"We don't get break periods," he said.








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   Dec > Dec 11

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:36:36 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:07:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:25:00 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>>>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>>>12-9-01

 >>>>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>by Mac Tonnies

 >>>>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>>>[image]

 >>>>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>>>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>>>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>>>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>>>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >>>....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >>>also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >>>within 1 minute of reading the post.

 >>I don't think so. But whadda I know under the affluence of
 >>substances. And then there are the voices in my head.

 >>>I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >>>examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

 >>Cheeses, I would like to see... oh... say a dozen more. And
 >>the more the merrier. Who knows, there may be a plethora of of
 >>lookalike Mars faces. So what?

 >Here's a few billion to start with-everyone that has a head
 >superficially resembles the rock formation/ancient
 >monument/stargate (delete any that do not apply).

Of course this is all too true, however the examples you gave in
your Re: post to Mac were all (hope I am not mistaken)
artificial. Which in this case is an irrelevant factoid.

 >>>I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >>>striking or important.

 >>>I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >>>before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >>>wildly?

 >>>"Seek and ye shall find".......

 >>Until then, what's the point in speculating? And the next
 >>sentence tells us to seek, and we will find. Seems to be a tad
 >>oxymoronic to this Grippler. Also seems to me that speculation
 >>and seeking the truth go hand in hand with research, dunn'it?
 >>Hell, what this world (and it's researchers) need is a tad more
 >>imagination. And a dollop of curiosity.

 >You miss the point - I had the good fortune to see an
 >installment of 'UFO's: Then And Now'on the History Channel this
 >morning (I'm not sure if programming is the same where you
 >live), and there was an interview with someone called David
 >Pieri who was part of the team that worked on the Viking lander
 >project. To quote him:

You are correct. I missinterpreted your remark. However so,
imagination, speculation and artifacts such as the one in Iran, in
their investigation, are not irrelevent. Every example _might_ point
to some commonality. Such is the methodology of research. Look
at everything, and as Alfred Lehmberg pointed in one of his more
erudite posts here, which by the way had not _one_ response;
which boggles what's left of my mind.....

It's called "self actualization," and it comes to one with luck
-- if one's found out its existence, and ones courage measures
up. A cosmic drug, but safer (in fact healing, I should say).
Surely, vanquishing the shadows as it drives them far away. It's
built up, like a pyramid, just one level at a time, and when
it's been constructed there's such treasure one might find!"

It's an excellent read... the Pyramids Of Maslow.

[Re-posted today with correct 'Subject:' line --ebk]

 >"Those of us on the lander team looked at one of the boulders on
 >the surface nearby and we decided we could see the initials of
 >every team member in the boulder that was ten feet away from the
 >lander."


 >What I mean is, if you look for something eg UFOs at the time
 >of the WTC attack, or faces of the devil in the flames, you
 >stand a very good chance of finding them, or if you are looking
 >for similar structures on earth to those found on Mars (or vice
 >versa) you will find them.

Also true, Joe, but in some remote sense in my thinking. We are
looking at a natural or ancient artifact here on earth, pointing
to some similarity with the Face on Mars. Nothing wrong with
seeing both and wondering about some possible relationship. No
one that I know of, Mac included, is drawing conclusions. Merely
pointing. And in pointing, may give some direction to the
conundrum. Last time I looked, magnitude and direction points.
In the form of a vector. There's merit in that post and in that
point.

 >>Just look at Kon Tiki.

 >As you no doubt know, Kon Tiki was a practical experiment >
designed to test a theory that early South American natives had
 >the technology to reach the Islands of Polynesia. A theory is
 >more than speculation, in that there is some reason for
 >holding the theory.

I read the book. Probably ten times. I was fascinated by Thor's
experiment. The point I was trying to make was not valid nor
applicable. I blame it on Gripple and Nyquil. Point was to have
been by example ... Thor pointed to some interesting
possibilities in the extension of culture from Egypt to Easter
Island. 'Course, the little reed raft nearly bought the farm.
But the point was made. And thereby established the
possibilities. Another vector was born. But prior to Thor
Hyerdahl's _proving_ it could be done by doing it, was laughed
at, derided and at one point, told to seek professional help!

 >Perhaps you have a theory of you own linking the formation on
 >Mars to the formation in Iran? If so, I apologise for using the
 >term "speculation".

Absolutely not. Merely suggesting that to stifle such as Mac
introduced or call it wild speculation is wild speculation. Or
worse.

 >>Never mind.

 >I don't.

Me needer.

Jim Mortellaro








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   Dec > Dec 11

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:46:21 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:10:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:07:48 +0000

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:25:00 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars - McGonagle
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:14:06 -0000

 >>>>Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:42:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>The Cydonian Imperative
 >>>>12-9-01

 >>>>Little-Known Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>by Mac Tonnies

 >>>>http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >>>>[image]

 >>>>The rare image above shows a decidedly unusual formation located
 >>>>in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature shares a striking, if
 >>>>superficial, resemblance to the Face on Mars as revealed in its
 >>>>entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor. Note the highly
 >>>>symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

 >>>....Think about it, Tutankhamun's mask and the Troubadour's mask
 >>>also resemble the formation on Mars. Both examples occured to me
 >>>within 1 minute of reading the post.

 >>I don't think so. But whadda I know under the affluence of
 >>substances. And then there are the voices in my head.

 >Perhaps they both came from Mars? Now that is speculating
 >wildly.

 >>>I could probably come up with hundreds of similar-looking
 >>>examples if I was daft enough to waste time doing so.

 >>Cheeses, I would like to see... oh... say a dozen more. And
 >>the more the merrier. Who knows, there may be a plethora of of
 >>lookalike Mars faces. So what?

 >Maybe the masks are based on a natural formation? That's why
 >they look like the Face On Mars? Now thats speculating (notice
 >the difference?

 >>>I regard the similarity as superficial, but certainly not
 >>>striking or important.

 >>>I expect a full survey of the feature on Mars to be completed
 >>>before I expire, until then, what is the point in speculating
 >>>wildly?

 >>>"Seek and ye shall find".......

 >>Until then, what's the point in speculating? And the next
 >>sentence tells us to seek, and we will find. Seems to be a tad
 >>oxymoronic to this Grippler. Also seems to me that speculation
 >>and seeking the truth go hand in hand with research, dunn'it?
 >>Hell, what this world (and it's researchers) need is a tad more
 >>imagination. And a dollop of curiosity.

 >There's a big difference between speculating and speculating
 >wildly. (See above for the difference.)

 >I think the last thing ufology needs is more imagination and
 >wild speculation.

Dear Rob, Joe, List and Errol,

Whilst I see your point, look at mine... no, not the one on the
top of my head. I disagree with you on one point. And that is
the application of imagination. Without such, there is no
research, nor is there the ability to see beyond the equations,
the formulae, the math and the physics.

For example, to view the 'possibility' of alien visitation and
merely explain that it is impossible to exceed the speed of
light, and not in the imagination, consider other possibilities
in the physics we do _not_ know, is not good thinking or good
research. Most of the wondrous discoveries made in the last two
centuries conceded to a vivid imagination. Drawing conclusions
from observe, anectdotal datum. Bugs which cannot be seen cause
infection in surgerys done when the doctor does not wash up.

What an uproar that caused.

See?

 >How about good research and rational thought.

I vote for them too.








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:04:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:22:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000

 >You miss the point - I had the good fortune to see an
 >installment of 'UFO's: Then And Now'on the History Channel this
 >morning (I'm not sure if programming is the same where you
 >live), and there was an interview with someone called David
 >Pieri who was part of the team that worked on the Viking lander
 >project. To quote him:

Any day that one is lucky enough to receive divinely inspired
wisdom from the folks at JPL is a fortunate day indeed!

 >"Those of us on the lander team looked at one of the boulders on
 >the surface nearby and we decided we could see the initials of
 >every team member in the boulder that was ten feet away from the
 >lander."

However, I do wonder how this particular pearl of wisdom helps
in distinguishing artificial from natural structures. Seems to
me it has zero probative value. You could use it to "prove"
anything is natural that you want to be natural -- or vice
versa.









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                 CI: 12-11-01 - Iranian Formation Artificial

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:24:42 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:26:20 -0500
Subject: CI: 12-11-01 - Iranian Formation Artificial


The Cydonian Imperative
12-11-01

Iranian Formation is Artificial
by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

The archives of the 1937 expedition that resulted in the
tantalizing image of an Iranian "Face-like" formation (see top
of page) provide photos that confirm its artificial origin.
Interestingly, the Face-like formation is accompanied by at
least one flat-topped pyramid (!). Image analyses and
comparisons are forthcoming. In the meantime, the following
links are helpful.

[Thanks to Bob Harrison of Cydonia Quest. --M.T.]

http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/PAAI_Surveys.html


http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/ASF/11G8_72dpi.html


http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/ASF/11G9_72dpi.html


http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/ASF/11B11_72dpi.html


----

from

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html









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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 334

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:44:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:58:59 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 334


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 334 - 15 NOVEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Recap Of Italian Sightings In October
- A Book On The "X-Files Of Mussolini"
- UFOs Make A Return To TV


Recap Of Italian Sightings In October

As already anticipated, the number of reports of UFO sightings
in the month of October totals just 24, as gathered by the
Italian Center for UFO Studies.

The data confirms the end to the summer wave of observations,
which had amounted almost to 400 cases between June and
September, and which will be analyzed in more depth inside the
next issue of our journal "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica" ("UFO Information Magazine").

The detailed list of the reports for October will be made
available to the public over the coming days on the C.I.S.U.
Internet site, where those from the preceding months may also be
accessed at URL:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi2001.htm

[Communication by Giorgio Abraini; collaboration by
Roberto Labanti and Sebastiano Ridolfi.]


A Book On The "X-Files Of Mussolini"

In bookstores is the latest literary effort by Alfredo Lissoni,
penned this time with Roberto Pinotti and dedicated to "Gli
'X-Files' del nazifascismo - Gli UFO di Mussolini" ("The
'X-Files' of Nazi-Fascism - The UFOs of Mussolini") (IdeaLibri,
256 pages, 33,885 Lire).

Beginning with the wealth of documents having been anonymously
received by mail from an unknown informant, the book proceeds
with the presumed discovery of a flying saucer in Italy in 1933,
to the Nazi circular aircraft and secret weapons which would
have found their inspiration in real UFOs.


UFOs Make A Return To TV

Following the summer hiatus, some recurring broadcasts on
Italian TVs nationwide have resumed extending invitations to
UFO-themed guests: UFOs and aliens were effused about (and
vilified) on programs like the "Maurizio Costanzo Show" (on 22
October and once again on 8 November); "Gente sull'orlo di una
crisi di nervi" ("People on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown"),
on 31 October on "La7" (in a mix that included ghosts, astrology
and the paranormal in general); and "I fatti vostri" ("Of
Concern to You") on Raidue on 14 November (the guest, a Genoan
nightwatchman who is the most known of the Italian abductees).
Also having discussed UFO's on more than one occasion during
October was "Il Grande Fratello" ("Big Brother"), on Stream TV.
The only real and true nod given to UFOs, however, was that
dedicated by "Geo & Geo" to the Hessdalen lights (Raitre, 22
October).

On the fiction side, on 28 October, among reruns of the TV show
"Happy Days", there was the broadcast of the known episode on
the UFO argument (sightings, dream-abductions); additionally,
the historic series "UFO" hit the airwaves each day in October
on Canal Jimmy, while on Raidue on Saturday, there was a
rebroadcast of the serial "Roswell", as well as the UFO-themed
evening teleplay on Raiuno, "Pianeta Terra: cronaca di
un'invasione" ("Planet Earth: Chronicle of an Invasion").

[Reports by Paolo Bergia, Francesco Castagna, Gian Paolo
Grassino, Roberto Labanti, Giorgio Russolillo and Sveva
Stallone; Uforama Online, 15 October; La Rete, 16 October
through 8 November; SocioUfo Mailing List, 12 October through 13
November; Chucara-2000 Mailing List, 22 through 30 October;
Ufology.net News, 26 October and 9 November.]

Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini, Paolo
Bergia, Francesco Castagna, Gian Paolo Grassino, Roberto
Labanti, Giorgio Russolillo, Sebastiano Ridolfi and Sveva
Stallone.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely
copied, photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed
and retrieved, at the only condition that Centro Italiano
Studi Ufologici is reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:32:59 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:17:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:08:46 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?

 >>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:36:03 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: chris aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Bruno was not a 16th century "ufologist" because he
 >never saw, nor claimed anyone ever saw, nor even
 >mentioned or hinted at the existence of, UFOs.

 >Wouldn't it be great if these works are actually
 >written by an alien race who came down from the stars
 >and gave mankind these wise works so that they could
 >advance in knowledge? Maybe man is sitting on proof
 >of alien visitation after all...


 >Just a thought,

 >Jeff Behnke
 >jeff@paranormalnews.com

Hello Jeff,

While I am very sceptical of any theories of this kind
(fortunately they no longer fall into my field of research) I
would suggest you read "The Greatest Story Never Told," a book
written and published just over a decade ago by Lana Cantrell.
Lana, who I have met and respect but am unable to agree with on
many points, is a very thorough researcher and her book
reexamines ancient texts from a scientific viewpoint.

Unfortunately, the 1030-page tome was badly edited and poorly
distributed so it is not very well known.

It also contains some silly mistakes and expresses so many
politically incorrect opinions that if the book had ever been
brought out by a commercial publisher she may well have been
lynched.

But it would be a good (if not an entirely necessary)place to
start searching for ideas to support your own, if you ever take
the theories of Sitchin, Bramley, Cremo etc seriously.

See:

http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/cantrell.html

Regards,

Chris Aubeck








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                         New On The Magonia Website

From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:42:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:21:15 -0500
Subject: New On The Magonia Website


New on the Magonia Website Archives:

Peter Rogerson's "Notes Towards a Revisionist History of
Abductions". Was this the series which started the "Literary
Criticism" outrage? Peter Rogerson strips away the 'official'
history of the abducution phenomena:

www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/revis01.html
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/revis02.html
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/revis03.html
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/revis04.html

And the first two articles in our series "Magonia in Spanish" -
two typical contributions from Juan Harney:

www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/escepticos.html
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/hps.htm


John Rimmer

j.rimmer@merseymail.com

Magonia Magazine
Promoting Pelican Pride








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                        Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:07:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:46:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?


Honored List folk...

I've recently received some information in the form of an
observation on the activities of one James (ashamed of his
apostrophe?) Oberg. Herr Oberg, arguably the ufological
negativist's preeminent apologist and pretender to the
skeptibunky throne of Philip Klass (an heir apparent with no
hair apparent and a likely product of hairy parents?), is
perhaps nothing but a crass shill for the politics of
axe-grinding deceit, it seems.

The reader will notice that UpDates has been lately been graced
with the nonstyled musings of the 'great pontificator'. His
slickly patronizing literary bifurcation and verbal obfuscation
has astounded us all with its ready assumption, phactual
nebulousness, and astonishing confabulation. Gratified or
outraged by his seemingly knowledgeable manipulations, we are;
however, distracted from an examination of where he has been and
where he might be going in our fractured ufological community
and what the effects of his irrational, illogical, and
unjustified wet blanket message of reflexive disavowal might
be.....

Does Mr. Oberg move from List to ufological List, in some
mechanistic and periodic rhythm of perennial denial, spreading
the same officious and patronizing message of calmly sarcastic
obfuscation in each location?

In these locations that he migrates to, does Mr. Oberg enter
into productive debate with the participants or does he engage
in irritating digressions of fluffy verbal fallacy that negates
clarity, confuses facts, and produces the usual fog of contrived
cognitive dissonance?

Does Mr. Oberg demonstrate best practice as a space historian or
science acolyte with his knowledge and application of the
components of a ufological investigation?

Does Mr. Oberg strike the reader as even _remotely_ open minded
on the subjects of off planet intelligence and inexplicable
aerial phenomena (UFOs)?

Does Mr. Oberg detract from, add to, or neutralize the
discussion that has captured the imaginations of rational people
for as long as these people have had some ability to record
their albeit distorted histories?

Does Mr. Oberg have _any_ ufological validity given his manner,
his qualification, or his demeanor?

Does Mr. Oberg have a hidden agenda that he shills for?

This writer suggests that the comings and goings of Mr. Oberg
might be observed a little more closely in the future - that an
"Oberg Watch" be initiated by the interested reader to see if
some kind of informational pattern might be established to test
his questioned veracity. His latest air castle pronouncements of
airy proclamation have been largely, if not completely,
destroyed by members of this List. Will he take these same
specious arguments to the next location and lather them on in
the same manner with those people as if they were still sound?

If the front man of a strange group for substantive
disinformation can be subsequently dismissed as the real
manipulator of the smoke and mirrors, how much harder then must
his ideological handlers continue their churlish charade? Expose
Mr. Oberg and what remains is a good sized hole in the aggregate
informational wall. The enemy of ignorance makes a weapon of
himself for our use against him. Let's use that weapon. It's a
war, after all.



Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred (Let's cut to the chase!) Lehmberg's Alien View"
at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
Herr Oberg's handlers.









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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:24:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:43:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:07:24 -0600

 >I've recently received some information in the form of an
 >observation on the activities of one James (ashamed of his
 >apostrophe?) Oberg. Herr Oberg, arguably the ufological
 >negativist's preeminent apologist and pretender to the
 >skeptibunky throne of Philip Klass (an heir apparent with no
 >hair apparent and a likely product of hairy parents?), is
 >perhaps nothing but a crass shill for the politics of
 >axe-grinding deceit, it seems.


This is precious, I've just got to share it with my buddies, and
it may well be worth a year-end bonus from my handlers that will
finally enable me to purchase that island in the Bahamas I've
had my eye on. Y'all come visit!

As to what apostrophe, or what Germanic insinuations are
referenced, I'm as clueless as the next rationale being...
<grin>

I take it then that the 'X-15 UFO Case' is settled?


JimO









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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:17:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:50:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:32:59 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:08:46 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?

 >>Wouldn't it be great if these works are actually
 >>written by an alien race who came down from the stars
 >>and gave mankind these wise works so that they could
 >>advance in knowledge? Maybe man is sitting on proof
 >>of alien visitation after all...

 >While I am very sceptical of any theories of this kind
 >(fortunately they no longer fall into my field of research) I
 >would suggest you read "The Greatest Story Never Told," a book
 >written and published just over a decade ago by Lana Cantrell.

 >http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/cantrell.html

Thanks for the link. I'll see if I can obtain the book.

I'm also debating whether or not to read Madam Blavatsky's works
as well. It is so difficult to separate occult works from
historical works when it comes to the writings of the Watchers.
I realized this when I ended up reading John Dee's Enochian
Magic to see why he believed he knew the angelic tongue
[Atlantean tongue? Alien tongue?], and also to see if there was
a similarity between the Enochian Keys and Solomon's Keys.

I stopped reading most occult works when I started experiencing
serious bouts of sleep paralysis.

Finding factual information embedded within occult literature is
a pain. But it is there. I just know it.


Cheers,

Jeff Behnke
jeff@paranormalnews.com










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                  Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:40:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:01:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:24:05 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:07:24 -0600

 >>I've recently received some information in the form of an
 >>observation on the activities of one James (ashamed of his
 >>apostrophe?) Oberg. Herr Oberg, arguably the ufological
 >>negativist's preeminent apologist and pretender to the
 >>skeptibunky throne of Philip Klass (an heir apparent with no
 >>hair apparent and a likely product of hairy parents?), is
 >>perhaps nothing but a crass shill for the politics of
 >>axe-grinding deceit, it seems.

 >This is precious, I've just got to share it with my buddies, and
 >it may well be worth a year-end bonus from my handlers that will
 >finally enable me to purchase that island in the Bahamas I've
 >had my eye on. Y'all come visit!

...Ruppelt... Hynek...Vallee... these were men much more
circumspect about the subject than your smirking reply would
imply. As to bonus? For some, the axe-grinding might be its own
reward. I would imagine the stiff preservation of your 19th
Century world view might be a kind of wage...

 >As to what apostrophe, or what Germanic insinuations are
 >referenced, I'm as clueless as the next rationale being...
 ><grin>

You're far from clueless, Mr. Oberg; that's a major part of the
tragedy.

 >I take it then that the 'X-15 UFO Case' is settled?

Oh, for sure! Mr. Rudiak ties it up nicely. You were _very_
helpful in his successful resolution of the debate. So, where
you off to now, Mr. Oberg?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Dec > Dec 11

                 Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:50:18 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:03:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:07:24 -0600

 >Honored List folk...

 >I've recently received some information in the form of an
 >observation on the activities of one James (ashamed of his
 >apostrophe?) Oberg. Herr Oberg, arguably the ufological
 >negativist's preeminent apologist and pretender to the
 >skeptibunky throne of Philip Klass (an heir apparent with no
 >hair apparent and a likely product of hairy parents?), is
 >perhaps nothing but a crass shill for the politics of
 >axe-grinding deceit, it seems.

Honorable Listfolk, Alfred, Herr Oberg, Errol,

I would answer your questions but I feel humbled by the
erudition on this list. Therefore, I shall quote the greatest
Ufologist who ever graced the table of research. Of course, that
would be Herr Gesundt, Saphardic Sicilian from the Rhineland,
sorry, the Black Forest. I forgot about his Saphardism. He
says...

"Ahem... in answer to the above question... ah, the last
sentence above... 'Yes'"

 >The reader will notice that UpDates has been lately been graced
 >with the nonstyled musings of the 'great pontificator'. His
 >slickly patronizing literary bifurcation and verbal obfuscation
 >has astounded us all with its ready assumption, phactual
 >nebulousness, and astonishing confabulation. Gratified or
 >outraged by his seemingly knowledgeable manipulations, we are;
 >however, distracted from an examination of where he has been and
 >where he might be going in our fractured ufological community
 >and what the effects of his irrational, illogical, and
 >unjustified wet blanket message of reflexive disavowal might
 >be.....

"Uh, there is no question here. However Gesundt agrees."

 >Does Mr. Oberg move from List to ufological List, in some
 >mechanistic and periodic rhythm of perennial denial, spreading
 >the same officious and patronizing message of calmly sarcastic
 >obfuscation in each location?

"Nah, he just figgered he could Schirmerize this one."

 >In these locations that he migrates to, does Mr. Oberg enter
 >into productive debate with the participants or does he engage
 >in irritating digressions of fluffy verbal fallacy that negates
 >clarity, confuses facts, and produces the usual fog of contrived
 >cognitive dissonance?

"I think so. However I must admit I cannot discern your meaning
there. So I must hazard a guess. I hazard a "yes" guess. Was I
right Alfred?"

 >Does Mr. Oberg demonstrate best practice as a space historian or
 >science acolyte with his knowledge and application of the
 >components of a ufological investigation?

"Huh?"

 >Does Mr. Oberg strike the reader as even _remotely_ open minded
 >on the subjects of off planet intelligence and inexplicable
 >aerial phenomena (UFOs)?

"One must make the assumption here ... is there one with which
to open?"

 >Does Mr. Oberg detract from, add to, or neutralize the
 >discussion that has captured the imaginations of rational people
 >for as long as these people have had some ability to record
 >their albeit distorted histories?

"Yes ... No ... Yes ..."

 >Does Mr. Oberg have _any_ ufological validity given his manner,
 >his qualification, or his demeanor?

"It's true what you said, 'da man meaner dan a junkyard doggie."

 >Does Mr. Oberg have a hidden agenda that he shills for?

"Were I you, I would ask my CIA handler."

 >This writer suggests that the comings and goings of Mr. Oberg
 >might be observed a little more closely in the future - that an
 >"Oberg Watch" be initiated by the interested reader to see if
 >some kind of informational pattern might be established to test
 >his questioned veracity. His latest air castle pronouncements of
 >airy proclamation have been largely, if not completely,
 >destroyed by members of this List. Will he take these same
 >specious arguments to the next location and lather them on in
 >the same manner with those people as if they were still sound?

"Huh?

 >If the front man of a strange group for substantive
 >disinformation can be subsequently dismissed as the real
 >manipulator of the smoke and mirrors, how much harder then must
 >his ideological handlers continue their churlish charade? Expose
 >Mr. Oberg and what remains is a good sized hole in the aggregate
 >informational wall. The enemy of ignorance makes a weapon of
 >himself for our use against him. Let's use that weapon. It's a
 >war, after all.

"Uh, what's the temperature of the sand?"

Herr Gesundt









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             Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:07:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:05:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? - Velez


 >From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:17:03 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:32:59 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:08:46 -0500
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?

 >>>Wouldn't it be great if these works are actually
 >>>written by an alien race who came down from the stars
 >>>and gave mankind these wise works so that they could
 >>>advance in knowledge? Maybe man is sitting on proof
 >>>of alien visitation after all...

 >>While I am very sceptical of any theories of this kind
 >>(fortunately they no longer fall into my field of research) I
 >>would suggest you read "The Greatest Story Never Told," a book
 >>written and published just over a decade ago by Lana Cantrell.

 >>http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/cantrell.html

 >Thanks for the link. I'll see if I can obtain the book.

 >I'm also debating whether or not to read Madam Blavatsky's works
 >as well. It is so difficult to separate occult works from
 >historical works when it comes to the writings of the Watchers.
 >I realized this when I ended up reading John Dee's Enochian
 >Magic to see why he believed he knew the angelic tongue
 >[Atlantean tongue? Alien tongue?], and also to see if there was
 >a similarity between the Enochian Keys and Solomon's Keys.

 >I stopped reading most occult works when I started experiencing
 >serious bouts of sleep paralysis.

Hi Jeff,

You wrote:

 >Finding factual information embedded within occult literature
 >is a pain. But it is there. I just know it.

It _is_ there, but, "Oh, you poor thing!" If you're planning on
taking on/absorbing the works of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.
You're about to find out that there was a lot more to that
reportedly foul mouthed old Medium than meets the 'public' eye.
;)

For most of the third decade of my life I was a student/member
of the Blavatsky Lodge here in New York. (United Lodge of
Theosophists) The books that you are contemplating reading are
genuine 'tomes' in the old fashioned academic meaning of the
term. To help narrow down your reading chore allow me to
recommend the following: The 'Secret Doctrine' which is composed
of; "Cosmogenisis" and its sister volume, "Anthropogenisis." You
might also want to read the first volume of "Isis Unveiled," the
one that is subtitled, "Science."

Warning: You're going to need; a plow to wade through the stiff
and hard to read verbose/ponderous (old fashioned) style/use of
Victorian English; a Latin dictionary at your side; and a
_well_versed_ knowledge of occultism in order to be able to
separate the wheat from the chaff. The information you seek
_is_there,_ you will just need a heap of patience and a truly
educated and refined sense of what is valuable (a keeper) and
what is not. (to be discarded.) There is plenty of both there.

I have no idea what your training or background is, but you're
in for one _major-league_ reading assignment if you choose to
tackle the Blavatsky material.  Having "been there" myself, you
have my empathy. Not for the weak. In the "Meat for men, milk
for babes" tradition, the reading assignment you contemplate is
a ten pound slab of beef-steak.

If you can tough it out, your efforts will be rewarded
handsomely. I was fortunate to have several senior lodge
members/older more experienced students to assist me in
ferreting out the useful bits/gold nuggets in that _formidable_
mountain of information. If you're on your own, you have one
hell of a challenging reading/study job in front of you.

Fore-warned is fore-armed.

Enjoy, or 'try to' anyway.  ;)


Regards,

John Velez









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                      Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:06:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee


Not too long ago a 74 year old photographer obtained a unique photo:
a red glowing sphere or orb during the _daylight_ and _close up!

This might be a breakthrough photograph in the "science"
of orbology(???).

Anyway, check it out!

http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html









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   Dec > Dec 12

                        Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:23:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:49:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch


 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:40 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Oregon Red Sphere
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Not too long ago a 74 year old photographer obtained a unique photo:
 >a red glowing sphere or orb during the _daylight_ and _close up!

 >This might be a breakthrough photograph in the "science"
 >of orbology(???).

 >Anyway, check it out!

 >http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html


Hello Bruce!

Very interesting. There is a possible second witness one street
away I take it.

If I have this right, the red ball-of-light (BOL) rose from
virtual ground level to the tall treetops, then made a 90-degree
turn toward the coast, presumably West.

Did the witness have the impression, or give you the impression,
that this was a case of directed, or intelligently controlled
flight or maneuvering?

This would be as opposed to some dimly understood natural
phenomenon like ball lightning might be.

The 90 degree turn does not necessitate a non-natural
explanation of course.


Best

- Larry








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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:20:03 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:57:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:17:03 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:32:59 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Thanks for the link. I'll see if I can obtain the
 >book. I'm also debating whether or not to read Madam
 >Blavatsky's works as well. It is so difficult to
 >separate occult works from historical works when it
 >comes to the writings of the Watchers.

<snip>


Hello Jeff,

I would suggest you did not start with Blavatsky's books unless
you really want to become completely bewildered and frustrated.

A good example of someone who got his head bent out of shape
after using Blavatsky (and several other 'esoteric' sources) as
a tapestry for UFO beliefs was W. Raymond Drake, whose "Gods and
Spacemen" series, written over a 25 year period, became a
classic in the field. Drake, who read in five or six different
languages, was more erudite than most 'ancient astronaut'
writers, and published an astonishing number of books and
articles dealing with the UFO myth in folklore and esoteric
literature. But he so happily blended Atlantis with Mu,
Christianity with Theosophy, the Ancient Greeks with the
hypothetical sexy Venusians that he later wrote fictional
stories about, and Joan of Arc with Martians(I think the blurb
on one of his books asks whether Martian blood ran in Joan of
Arc's veins, or something like that), that his books became
simply unreadable, and today are almost forgotten.

He once told me he started off on his 'quest for the truth' as a
result of the growing tendency to reinterpret Blavatsky's books
from a ufological perspective. He was not the first, but many
followed in his footsteps.

If you believe that prehistoric aliens left humanity some kind
of message in the form of a text or oral tradition, I would
suggest that you sought out the earliest esoteric writings
available, not something written in the 19th century.

Researchers of UFO history tend to make two major mistakes:
firstly, in order to show that the phenomenon has existed
throughout history they leap from Arnold's 1947 sighting to a
brief discussion of the nineteenth century airship scare, and
from there to Ancient Egypt or India, and then back to the
twentieth century again. This makes no sense, and bypasses 2000
years of very significant UFO incidents.

(One of the reasons for this is the general lack of good sources
on historical cases, and another is the American preoccupation
with America and the English language in a field dominated by
Americans writing in English. Many books and papers focus on the
idea that America discovered UFOs in Victorian times and
rediscovered them for humanity in 1947.)

The second mistake is to seek confirmation of UFO beliefs in
esoteric texts that are not old or authenticated enough to
demonstrate anything much at all. Or in the "cherished ancient
tribal beliefs" communicated to us by "genuine tribal elders"
today. I have found that such claims are generally spurious.

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for. I can promise
you that ufology does indeed overlap with esoteric tradition,
but not always how you'd most like it to.


Chris Aubeck









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   Dec > Dec 12

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:21:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:58:36 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 335 -  22 NOVEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- C.I.S.U. Magazine Becomes a Quarterly
- UFO Lecture At CCR Euratom
- A UFO Book From CICAP, Too
- Riccione: No New Year=92s UFOs


C.I.S.U. Magazine Becomes a Quarterly

The governing councilor of the Italian Center for UFO Studies
has approved a sweeping restructuring of the C.I.S.U.=92s
periodical publications which, beginning with the next year,
will be consolidated: both the newsletter "UFO Notizie" (=93UFO
News Updates=94) and the technical review "UFO Forum" will merge
with "UFO  - rivista di informazione ufologica (=93UFO
Information Journal=94), which will become a quarterly.

Consequently, membership fees for to the Center and subscription
fees have changed, also because of the arrival of the new Euro
currency. The new amounts are available on the C.I.S.U. Internet
site at the URL: http://www.cisu.org/cisu2002.htm


UFO Lecture At CCR Euratom

On Tuesday, 27 November, the Euratom Community Research Center
in Ispra will present a lecture by the astrophysicist Massimo
Teodorani on the expedition organized this summer in Norway by
the Italian Committe for Project Hessdalen (CIPH) in
collaboration with the Italian National Research Council (CNR).

In the course of the lecture, Stefania Genovese will present the
book-bound edition "UFO: complessit=E0 ed anomalie di un mito"
(=93UFOs: Complexities and Anomalies of a Myth=94) of her well-known
graduate thesis in Philosophy. Admission is free, with a
starting time of 8:45 p.m.

The host and organizer is CUFOC (CCR UFO Club), under the
direction of C.I.S.U. Member Marcel Delaval who has published
some monographs in the series, "Documenti UFO" (=93UFO
Documents=94),  with Edizioni UPIAR.

[News by Marcel Delaval; collaboration by Renzo Cabassi.]


A UFO Book From CICAP, Too

Issued as a supplement to the magazine "Scienza & paranormale"
(=93Science & The Paranormal=94) is the umpteenth book in this
UFO-rich bibliographic year: it is entitled "UFO: indagini,
ricerche approfondimenti e verifiche=94 (=93UFOs: Investigations,
In-Depth Research and Examinations=94) and edited by Marco
Morocutti; and in its 107 pages (at 18,000 Lire), it gathers
together ten or so articles on our subject, these having
appeared for the most part in the magazine of CICAP (The Italian
Committee for the Check of Claims of the Paranormal) and penned,
among others, by Andrea Baravalle, Albino Carbognani, Margherita
Hack, James Oberg, Tullio Regge, Edoardo Russo and Massimo
Teodorani.

As for the volumes by Genovese, C.I.S.U. members possibly
encountering difficulties locating it in bookstores, may
purchase the book directly through our Book Service.

[Report by Roberto Labanti.]


Riccione: No New Year=92s UFOs

The American attacks of 11 September have derailed the landing
of UFOs in the center of Riccione on New Year=92s Night.

The Councillorship of Tourism had actually planned =93The Landing
of Spacecraft with Lights and Lasers,=94 in Roma Square, as a
pyrotechnic closure to a promotional campaign which, since this
Spring, has seized upon UFOs as a testimonial to Romagna, until
July=92s landing hoax scandal involving traces.

The airliners hijacked and crashed over New York and Washington
rendered this an impossibility, however. Following the
already-announced ceasing of the campaign built around alien
visitors, it was therefore necessary  with good reason  also to
abandon the UFO invasion of San Silvestro.

[Il Resto del Carlino, Rimini Edition, 8 November; collaboration
by Roberto Labanti.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Renzo Cabassi, Marcel
Delaval and Roberto Labanti.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org










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                          Roswell Is Alive And Well

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:08:16 -0500
Subject: Roswell Is Alive And Well


Hello to the List,

I wish first to add my little piece of "critical thinking" to
Karl Pflock's last post to the List, regarding Don Ecker's
article in UFO Magazine which revealed that Senator Thurmond had
signed an authorization for his preface, with the mention of the
provisional title of the book "The Roswell book".

Karl Pflock wrote, on November 19:

<snip>

 >I made a copy of Ecker's piece available to Senator Thurmond's
 >chief of staff, and a few days ago, I received in return copies
 >of several very interesting items. One of these is the release
 >form in the senator's office file, on which ALL the blanks in
 >text are, well, blank. No "undersigned," no "author," but, most
 >important, no book title, not even the generic "Roswell Book."
 >This clearly is the same form reproduced in UFO, as the
 >senator's signature and date of signing match--but it is as it
 >was when the original left the senator's office, BEFORE someone
 >(gee, wonder who?) typed in "Roswell Book." Hmmm...

Well, at first sight, it seems that this answer by the Senator's
chief of staff settles the matter. But on second thought, two
options seem to remain open, which are probably unprovable.

First option: Senator Thurmond signed a blank authorization and
later 'someone' filled the blank with the provisional title
"Roswell Book" (please note that it is rather unusual to sign a
blank authorization) ;

Second option: Senator Thurmond signed the authorization with
the provisional title on it. When the book was published, his
office denied it, and now they are compelled to stick to that
line. Then make a copy, delete the title, and send a copy of it
to Karl Pflock.

The only sure thing is 'someone' is lying, but who? I am afraid
it is going to be very hard to answer that, but I suggest that
we wait for an answer from Don Ecker.

About Roswell, I also wish now to thank here, The International
UFO Reporter, for their article on the new witness Chester
Barton (IUR Summer 2001).

It seems to me that it has drawn too little attention on this
List. Here is a man who was sent by his chief, Major Easley, to
a crash site, to see what was going on and report to him. He
saw, from a distance, a crashed craft. As he was told to keep it
secret, he assumed that it was a crashed B-29, with an atomic
bomb.

But we know it could not be!

The matter has been already debated at length.

See for instance the second book of K.Randle and D. Schmitt 'The
Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell', page 129.

There was such an accident, in 1957 near Albuquerque, and after
some years of secrecy, the story was revealed in the press. So
why not for Roswell?

If such an accident had taken place, the secret would have been
lifted long ago and it would have closed the Roswell case for
good - a big relief for the Air Force. So much better than
clinging to the ridiculous Mogul story! The proof that it did
not happen is that they cannot say it. So what did Barton see?
It seems to be just another valid testimony pointing to an
extraordinary event.


Gildas Bourdais









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:48:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:04:26 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000

 >>You miss the point - I had the good fortune to see an
 >>installment of 'UFO's: Then And Now'on the History Channel this
 >>morning (I'm not sure if programming is the same where you
 >>live), and there was an interview with someone called David
 >>Pieri who was part of the team that worked on the Viking lander
 >>project. To quote him:

 >Any day that one is lucky enough to receive divinely inspired
 >wisdom from the folks at JPL is a fortunate day indeed!

 >>"Those of us on the lander team looked at one of the boulders on
 >>the surface nearby and we decided we could see the initials of
 >>every team member in the boulder that was ten feet away from the
 >>lander."

 >However, I do wonder how this particular pearl of wisdom helps
 >in distinguishing artificial from natural structures. Seems to
 >me it has zero probative value. You could use it to "prove"
 >anything is natural that you want to be natural -- or vice
 >versa.

Here is another pearl of wisdom with probably zero probative
value. Why does the structure in Iran bear a closer resemblance
to the late Ayatollah Khomeini than it does to the face on Mars?


Josh Goldstein










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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:31:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:50:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:07:07 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?

 >>From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:17:03 -0500

 >>Finding factual information embedded within occult literature
 >>is a pain. But it is there. I just know it.

John Velez wrote:

 >It _is_ there, but, "Oh, you poor thing!" If you're planning on
 >taking on/absorbing the works of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.
 >You're about to find out that there was a lot more to that
 >reportedly foul mouthed old Medium than meets the 'public' eye.
 >;)

I figured if I can get throught Kurt Godel's "On Formally
Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related
Systems" I can get through just about anything. Of course, at
the age of 18 when I had read it, how much of it can I say I
truly absorbed?

 >To help narrow down your reading chore allow me to
 >recommend the following: The 'Secret Doctrine' which is composed
 >of; "Cosmogenisis" and its sister volume, "Anthropogenisis." You
 >might also want to read the first volume of "Isis Unveiled," the
 >one that is subtitled, "Science."

Thanks once again. On top of "The Greatest Story Never Told", I
think I'll have enough reading material for a year.

 >I have no idea what your training or background is, but you're
 >in for one _major-league_ reading assignment if you choose to
 >tackle the Blavatsky material. Having "been there" myself, you
 >have my empathy. Not for the weak. In the "Meat for men, milk
 >for babes" tradition, the reading assignment you contemplate is
 >a ten pound slab of beef-steak.

My background consists of computer programming and database
design, and a lifelong interest in finding true proof of
mankind's origins and human faith. Hence, the reading of
mathematical proofs constructed by people such as Kurt Godel,
just to see what people consider to be "proven" in this world.

When it comes to tackling dense material, the only way I can
make sense of it all is to construct a database to keep track of
it for me. Tackling Sumerian literature encompasses the
ever-elongating task of maintaining a bunch of tables with
supposed definitions of terms. I figure in the next five years I
should have at least three or four languages in it to use as a
reference to whatever it is I feel like penning, with all the
variations of terms I run across, Blavatsky's included. I
understand scientific sampling, which I think is extremely
necessary when attempting to translate and conceptualize older
works. Reading Blavatsky's material is merely a way for me to
obtain a larger sampling.

 >If you can tough it out, your efforts will be rewarded
 >handsomely. I was fortunate to have several senior lodge
 >members/older more experienced students to assist me in
 >ferreting out the useful bits/gold nuggets in that _formidable_
 >mountain of information. If you're on your own, you have one
 >hell of a challenging reading/study job in front of you.

Ah, what a wonderful thing to have a mentor. I think my current
mentors consist of various mythology professors and ministers
who bash my "uninformed" opinions that I e-mail to them out of
nowhere. I understand the idea that the greatest teacher is one
who criticizes the hell out of you and says nothing you want to
hear, but I've never appreciated being told to "Read the Bible"
to find the answers I seek, since I've read it at least three or
four times, and have yet to find anything of substance to
explain Enoch, Genesis 6, Goliath, Ezra being drugged by angelic
beings, or Jesus' reference to "Powers and Principalities." No,
the answers are elsewhere. The Bible is merely the beginning.

All I currently have is my enthusiasm, which, at times, my wife
does not share. It's rather humorous to see her reaction when I
run up to her and go, "Honey! The Corpus Hermeticum was written
in Alexandria and not in 3000 BC! What am I going to do now?"
Her usual response is, "How about taking a walk?" But alas, she
knows how determined I am to find the meaning of it all and
supports me.

I have already sacrificed my own faith in pursuit of the truth.
What will be next? I do not know.


--Jeff Behnke
jeff@paranormalnews.com









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   Dec > Dec 13

                      Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:16:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:53:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee


 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:23:20 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere


 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:40 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Oregon Red Sphere
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Not too long ago a 74 year old photographer obtained a unique photo:
 >>a red glowing sphere or orb during the _daylight_ and _close up!

 >>This might be a breakthrough photograph in the "science"
 >>of orbology(???).

 >>Anyway, check it out!

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html

 >Very interesting. There is a possible second witness one street
 >away I take it.

Not confirmed. There may have been some confusion on the part of
of the police who apparently took a report of something that
happened "somewhere."

 >If I have this right, the red ball-of-light (BOL) rose from
 >virtual ground level to the tall treetops, then made a 90-degree
 >turn toward the coast, presumably West.

 >Did the witness have the impression, or give you the impression,
 >that this was a case of directed, or intelligently controlled
 >flight or maneuvering?

 >This would be as opposed to some dimly understood natural
 >phenomenon like ball lightning might be.

 >The 90 degree turn does not necessitate a non-natural
 >explanation of course.

Witness did not imply "intent" or "intelligence" but just
reported what it did.

This could be a TRUFO (TRue UFO) of a non-intelligent type... a
previously unknown/unrecognized natural phenomenon. (Note:
TRUFOs that give the impression of intelligence... such as by
taking avoidance maneuvers or being (apparently) craft of some
sort may also be "natural phenomena," but on a level of
"natural" that is not yet accepted by science/scientists as
real.)








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   Dec > Dec 13

                    Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:41:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:59:33 -0500
Subject: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'


Today I received a letter dated December 10, 2001, from Claire
D. Johnson, executive secretary to ex-astronaut Gene Cernan's
current business enterprise. I had faxed her several questions
for Cernan regarding the 1973 Los Angeles Times alleged UFO
quotations.

Regarding the interview where he supposedly said he believed
UFOs were alien visitors, "Captain Cernan said it's 'not true',
or has been misinterpreted." Did Nick Chriss's article
accurately reflect Captain Cernan's view: "No."

Did Cernan ever make the remark that he thought UFOs 'were
somebody else, some other civilization'" Wrote Johnson, "Captain
Cernan said he never said that about UFOs." Regarding Internet
posts that claim that Cernan believes UFOs are real, she wrote,
"Captain Cernan said, "not me (until I see one)".

Johnson added this comment with Cernan's permission: "Captain
Cernan has been in space three times, been to the Moon twice,
and has been on or around the Moon about nine days. He should
have had ample time 'to meet' a UFO, but has not! The stories
are too incredible."

Her letter ended, "I hope the above helps clarify Captain
Cernan's beliefs and position."


Jim Oberg










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   Dec > Dec 13

                          Filer's Files #50 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:28:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:04:46 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #50 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #50 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 12, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs have been reported in New Jersey, North Carolina, Alabama,
Illinois, Louisiana, Kansas, Colorado, California, Mexico,
Ireland, Italy, and Australia. Scientific evidence of UFOs
damaging the paint on automobiles in the US Northeast and
Australia.

NORTHEAST

Charlene sent this e-mail, "I write you hesitantly and
grudgingly, not wanting to have talked about this outside my
marriage, but my husband has badgered me to report the event. I
will therefore explain the incident on condition of 100%
complete anonymity. I am a 30-year-old professional female, I'm
not particularly interested in science, science fiction, nor
have I seriously entertained the idea of UFO's previously.

On November 7, 2001, at approximately 1:00 AM, I had just
finished a lovely dinner while visiting with my parents in a
rural area. On my way home I was driving along a dirt road,
which cuts through farmland until it accesses the main road. I
was about half way along the access road when I noticed in front
of my car an area that could best be described as distorted,
like heat waves coming off a hot asphalt road in the middle of
summer. (We live by the way in the Northeast, so it was
certainly less than warm in mid November.) The headlights of the
car began to flicker the radio, which I was listening to keep me
alert for the ride home crackled then died. The engine stopped
and I can only describe what happened next as a red glowing
almost translucent, like a red glowing stove element, somewhat
irregular shaped object appeared about 20 feet in front of my
car, slightly to the left and hovered about 10 feet off the
ground. The object sort of just appeared like it burst onto the
scene from nowhere. I certainly did not notice anything peculiar
previously to the object appearing. The object was irregular in
shape, roundish but the edges were not well-defined and seemed
to wobble or change almost like a cartoon animation. The object
also seemed to be giving off sparks or something. The object
maintained the same position for five minutes, best described
as, morphed, or changed its shape into a pillar like shape, and
its color went from translucent red to platinum silver and shot
straight up into the sky at incredible speed.

The car began functioning again, the radio came back on, and I
continued home convincing myself I had imagined the whole
thing, that I was still sleepy. When I got home I explained the
whole thing to my husband. My husband went out to check the car
and noticed spots on the hood of the car where the paint had
bubbled as if burned. The radio functioned but the CD player
and digital clock no longer work. This was an odd experience to
say the least and have talked to no one about it but my
husband. We don't know what to make of this experience except
that we are in agreement not to talk of this to anyone for fear
of ridicule or worse. I have been having nightmares ever since
and hope that perhaps by relating my experience can somehow
alleviate some of the stress this episode has caused. Since
this episode I cannot drive alone at night and even during the
day prefer to be accompanied. The stress is beginning to take a
toll, a patch of hair on my head has fallen out, and I suffer
from headaches and sporadic shooting pains up my spine. I have
sought medical attention for the physical symptoms and they can
find nothing wrong. If the psychological symptoms don't subside
I may seek professional help for them as well although I do not
want to have to relate this experience to anyone. Thanks to
Charlene.

NEW JERSEY ATLANTIC OCEAN ENTRY CYLINDER

Bonnie writes that on December 2, 2001, "I rose early, around
5:00 AM to run before the day starts; I let the dog out, most
mornings." It's predawn, there is a full moon high in the sky,
and to the east the sky is just getting purple. The dog is
doing her thing. The moon is so pretty I stare at it for a bit,
and under the moon is a thing, it's invisible in a night sky,
but it is outlined by the moon's glow. I try to make it a
plane, but it has no wings, no tail, and no nose. It is
cylindrical, has flat ends, I think it looks like a pole. As I
stare at it, it starts to move like a blimp, slow. It was lying
horizontally under the moon, and it moves in jerky movements
(like a rubber band, hard to explain) until it is vertical.
Then it stops. Then a light came out of one of the ends, and it
looks like a star. Indistinguishable from the other stars. (had
I not seen it I never would have known). Then I believe I saw
the first "shooting star" I've ever seen, when it took off in a
southeasterly direction, which from here is the Atlantic ocean.
The whole thing took place in a 15 minute span of time, at no
time did it occur to me to get a camera, or call a family
member. Thanks to Bonnie

NORTH CAROLINA RECTANGLE

SYLVA -- Gene writes that on October 8, 2001, at 10:00 PM, I
walked to the deck in front of my house, looked up at the sky,
and saw directly over my head a UFO flying south. The shape was
a rectangle about 10 X 5 inches traveling like an airplane
wing, completely lighted in an orange yellow color with
flashing or rotating lights of blue and purple and a blood red
bubble which expanded and contracted on the right three inches
of this object. There was no sound and I observed this for 5 to
8 seconds. The next night at about 10:00 PM, I walked out of
the back door of my house and looked toward the heavens and
there straight above me was the same or another UFO like I had
seen the night before. This time it was flying from west which
would make the two sightings to intersect over my house here at
in Western North Carolina which is: 35 degrees 20 minutes north
latitude 82 degrees 15 minutes west longitude.

I had been talking to God regarding what the Magi or Wiseman
saw that is called a Star in Matthew, which they saw two times.
Once in the land they came from and then it accompanied them
from Jerusalem to Nazareth where "it stopped over the place
where the Child was." I am not surmising anything this just
happened to me, and I was "overjoyed" just like the Magi were.
By looking up supernovae on the Internet, I got a picture with
these colors by searching "Barry Setterfield" who produced the
video "The Christmas Star" which a friend Dr. Silas Anderson
gave me in 1984, which showed me that Christ was born sometime
in September or October. This showed me the date of October 1st
which I had underlined several years before in Genesis 8:5. The
colors in this picture are the same as I saw on the UFO. To see
a supernova with all its colors go to:
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/ then click on Signs in the
Stars. In Christ, Gene. Thanks to Gene

ALABAMA CYLINDER

NORTH ALABAMA -- On December 2, 2001, the witness observed a
slow moving oblong shaped object metallic in color headed east
at 1:35 PM. The object made not no noise and disappeared in a
flash.

ILLINOIS BRIGHT BALL OF LIGHT

LEBANON -- On December 4, 2001, and several previous nights at
10:50 PM on my way home from work driving north on Route 4
towards Lebanon from Scott Air Force Base and while driving
east on new Route 50 to Carlyle I witness a ball of light
moving across the sky at a very high rate of speed. I can't
tell it's altitude or size. I drive at 65 mph and it comes into
my view as I leave the base and it is gone out of my sight
before I reach Breese, Illinois. The drive takes about 15
minutes. The object must cover about 300 statue miles in that
time frame. It is first visible from the southwest looking from
Lebanon and last visible in the northeast over Vandalia from
the same vantage point.

((NUFORC Note: We have no idea what the witness has been
viewing. However, since the witness apparently has been in
motion during his sighting, we feel that he may have been
witnessing a (stationary) celestial body, which gives the
impression that it is moving, given that the witness has been
moving. PD))

LOUISIANA TWO LARGE LOW ALTITUDE CIGARS

SOUTH BOSSIER -- On December 1, 2001, the witness heard a
tremendous roaring sound, making his house vibrate, so he went
outside on his deck to see two large low altitude craft flying
over at 8:45 PM. The craft were about 2,000 feet or less in
altitude. They had a strange lighting configuration. Both craft
had very bright red lights in the center, and bright white
lights on front and back. It was a clear night for viewing. The
craft had no wing lights or small tail lights, just lights
spanning the length of both craft! They had no green light or
other lights that FAA requires. The craft were extremely noisy,
rumbling and roaring, to the point, I feared a crash was about
to occur! They were in view for too long to be conventional
jets, judging by their size and altitude. Being so low and
large, it was hard for me to comprehend how they could stay
airborne. There may have been more than two, but when I went
outside, only two were evident. Both were about the size of
B-52 bombers. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com.

KANSAS STREAMS OF CYLINDRICAL OBJECTS

WINFIELD -- On December 1, 2001, the witnesses saw an object
made up of streaming light that was approximately 1 1/2 miles
long that made no sound. It was basically three streams of
light that were blue in color. Two streams were originating
from the cylindrical objects at 10:38 PM. Within the light
streams were gold looking objects that on first observation
looked like sparks. Intermixed within the sparks and blue
rivers of light were many round shapes which were in reds and
greens. These objects held formation. The blue streams of light
appeared to be a half mile long though it was difficult to
judge the size as it may have been very large and far away even
thought it appeared to be very low and close. The whole thing
was humongous. I guessed it to be 1 1/2 mile total length and
moving at a very high rate of speed. There was absolute silence
as it glided through a cloudless sky. This was preceded by two
small light sources that looked like the eyes of the craft. We
were unable to make out any structure and could only clearly
see the streams of light. The light coming from "the eyes" was
very contained and had no light between them and the craft, and
the light source did not create a beam. They appeared to be
totally independent. There appeared to be shades of red, green
and blue lights around the cylindrical objects that we could
see. When we switched off the headlights and engine to the car,
it flashed a green light in our direction.

Fifteen minutes prior to this sighting, we had noticed a light
in the sky falling straight down towards the earth that we
thought was a meteor. We were just southeast of Winfied when we
saw this. We drove through Winfield, and were about 5 miles
north when we saw this craft. It came from the southwest going
rapidly to the northeast. From the inside of the car, the view
filled the whole windshield. At first it appeared to be two
B-1b Bombers flying in very close and low formation. I got out
of the car because I could not believe what I was seeing and
realized there was no sound. We watched intently for the next
few minutes until it just disappeared behind some trees. We
headed in the general direction and never caught sight of it
again. We tried to use our cell phone but had a huge echo and a
lot of static. I am a recently retired Numerical Control
Programmer for Boeing aircraft in the tool engineering
department.

Editor's Note: NORAD announced that moving from the southwest
to northeast pieces of a Proton rocket had disintegrated in
Earth's atmosphere. NORAD has had a sudden increase in the
number of uncorrelated targets reaching one hundred a day. The
time difference between the two sightings is unexplained.

WICHITA -- At 10:20 PM, the witness spotted a formation of 18
to 20 bright objects leaving contrails on December 1, 2001. An
entire formation (18 to 20 objects) of very "hot" streaking
objects moved across the sky from our location moving from
southwest to northeast. The "formation was led by two very
bright lights leaving streaks of orange/yellow contrails. The
balance of the objects (each leaving an orange very long very
bright contrail) followed. The only description I can think of
to describe the formation was like an almost dry paint brush
run across a wall. The number of objects tended to decrease as
they proceeded northeast from this location in Southwest
Wichita. ((NUFORC Note: We suspect the witness is describing the
reentry event that occurred at approximately 2120 hours.
(Mountain) on Saturday, December 01, 2001. Please see:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast03dec_1.htm?list4963
4. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

OKLAHOMA GARY SEES LIGHTS IN THE SKY

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Gary England Chief Meteorologist, KWTV NEWS 9,
On December 2, 2001, at about 10:15 PM, my wife, two others and
myself were in our car traveling south. One of us pointed to
the west and said, "What is that?" A somewhat wild scramble to
get out of the car for a better look, in the middle of Meridian
Avenue, followed that comment. For a moment, the fuzzy lights
appeared to be similar to the bottom side of an airliner. But
in what seemed like a split second, numerous streaks of bright
light were silently blazing across the western sky toward the
north. Like so many of you who saw the event, I had never seen
anything that could compare to it. It was absolutely beautiful
as well as a bit scary for a brief period. I turned to my
friend and commented that I certainly hoped we were not
observing incoming ICBMs. As it turns out, a rocket was
involved. It was a Russian Proton rocket, called SL-2 system.
It was launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakstan at 2:04
PM Saturday afternoon and had placed communication satellites
in orbit. It then reentered the atmosphere and went into a
never to be forgotten long duration, fragmented bright burn
across a crystal clear night sky. Gary is a friend of Jim
Hickman's and they have worked on several UFO cases together,
including the "Unknown Flying' thing. Thanks to Jim Hickman
thehickmanreport@yahoogroups.com Editors Note: A series of
witnesses reported the reentry in detail indicating the average
witness is rather accurate in their descriptions. Two to 400
UFO reports are received each month indicating that many are
actual unknowns.

COLORADO DISK

COLORADO SPRINGS -- On December 2, 2001, the witness observed
eight Lights in formation flying overhead. There were dots of
white, blue and red. They were in a formation pointing east.
The brightest was below the moon with two at 50 degrees forming
a triangle. Off all three points there was a dimmer light. Then
in the north two more lights were over Denver. My brother and I
have viewed the R.W.B. for years. This the first time I've seen
more than two in the sky. Note at the proper angle the
formation appears to be an Eye of Ra pointing towards D.C. I
have seen them for years and this is the first time more than
two have appeared. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA TRIANGULAR FORMATION AND BLIMP

SANTA ANA/GARDEN GROVE -- While driving in Costa Mesa (Orange
County south of Disney Land), at about 7:00 PM, I saw what
appeared to be a lighted blimp in the northern sky. It seemed
to be somewhere in the air space southwest of the Disney Land
Area. As I was driving, I only saw the lighted blimp for a few
moments and at a distance but it appeared to be nothing else
but a blimp. I submitted this report because the object could
very have been reported as a UFO.

ANAHEIM -- The witness a private pilot reports, "I was looking
up towards the North Star on December 4, 2001, when all of
sudden I saw two formations of lights in a triangle shape."
Each formation was about 15 inches long. After a few seconds
they changed formation into one large triangle, and one object
was acting like a rover circling the whole triangle, then it
added itself on to the formation, and they disappeared into the
distance. They were at a very high altitude. I have never seen
anything like this or reported anything in my life. I come from
a family of fighter pilots and airline pilots, I have been
around all kinds of planes and air shows my whole life. The
speed and maneuverability of these objects was something I
haven't seen before. If anyone else witnessed the same
formations I would like to know. They were flying directly
Southbound away from North Star.

((NUFORC Note: We spoke with this witness, and he sounded quite
level-headed and sincere to us. We suspect that his report has
no relationship to the sighting from Santa Ana/Garden Grove
from the same date, but two hours earlier. Apparently, the
movement of the objects was quite uncharacteristic of migratory
birds, aircraft, or any other phenomenon the witness is
familiar with. The witness identified himself as being a
private pilot. PD)) Thanks

MEXICO UFO's SEEN OVER MT POPO AGAIN

MOUNT POPOCATP=C9TL -- Troy Allen notified me he is regularly
observing UFOs over Popocatp=E9tl one of the tallest active
volcanoes, located sixty kilometers east of Mexico City. Troy
is not located near the volcano but monitors the volcano's
observation camera. Troy noticed on November 27, 2001, around
8:00 AM there were dark objects circling the volcano. Their
speed and size ruled out birds or aircraft. Numerous UFOs have
been sighted and caught on the volcano's observation cameras.
Over sixty UFOs were spotted this summer alone. The volcano is
active and often has cloud cover, but the UFOs are
comparatively dark and can frequently be seen through clouds.
They appear as dark specs but move like a powered craft. UFO s
have had an interest in the volcano since its December 21,
1994, eruption, ending decades of slumber. Residents of the
Popocatepetl area have also reported seeing lights that "fly"
over the volcano for several years. Troy says, "After almost a
year of repeated surveillance and a few thousand photos later,
it is my belief that the so-called UFO flying saucer phenomenon
in fact is a very real thing that is accruing throughout the
world." Thanks to Troy.

IRELAND DISK

DUBLIN -- On December 2, 2001, the witnesses observed a disk
with red and white lights on it that just seemed to hover to
the west! As we stopped at the traffic lights my Mam looked out
the window and to her surprise she saw a disk shaped flying
object in front of her! The craft started moving and she told
all six of us to look out the window! As we looked out we all
saw a craft with a red lights and white lights on it! It just
seemed to hover to the west of the car! As we drove off it
vanished out of sight! Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

ITALY FEWER UFO REPORTS IN OCTOBER

A slump has been confirmed in the number of UFO reports
published by Italian newspapers. This may be the result of the
shift in mass media attention to the dramatic news events
occurring at the international level. In fact, only 42
clippings appear with reference to the UFO argument, these
gathered over the last month by the special agency Eco della
Stampa for the Italian Center for UFO Studies. There being a
sharp drop compared with the preceding months (monthly data
from the last ten years are available on the C.I.S.U Internet
site: http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ecotot.htm). The trend was also
reflected in the number of sighting reports, which abruptly
diminished during the second half of September. The data
relative to the month of October confirm nonetheless the end of
the summer wave) will be distributed by the C.I.S.U. next week.
This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited weekly by
Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro
Italiano Studi Ufologici), at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

AUSTRALIA MAN FOLLOWED BY UFO

BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND -- A report has just come into MUFON from
a man returning home from work in the suburb of Fernvale. On
arriving just out of Ipswich his wife contacted him by mobile
phone to pick up some milk on his way home. He stopped at a
small shop at 7.35 PM, just this side of Brassall fifteen
minutes drive from his home in Fernvale. As he drove along he
became aware of a bright light on the horizon. He said that
usually he drives at around 100 kilometers per hour (60 mph) on
this stretch of road, but found himself doing 135 kilometers
(80 mph). As he drove on, the light became bigger as he got
closer, it seemed to be stationery then as he got a little
closer his immediate thought was, that it was someone on a
motor bike. As he got closer still the color seemed to change
from the color of a halogen light to the reddish/orange. This
light went over his car and was about 45 degrees above the
trees on the passenger side of the car, it seemed to keep
abreast with him, so he sped up. It kept just ahead of his car.
When I asked him how big this light was? He said, 'if you
stretched out your arm it would be about 8 inches in diameter,'
he would gauge the height it traveled was about 20 feet above
the trees.

He contacted his wife by mobile phone and asked her to go
outside and look in his direction at this object in the sky.
She said that she watched it for about five minutes before it
flew in a south west direction. Malcolm claims that he watched
it for a good fifteen minutes. Malcolm had phoned me around
9:15 PM to report the incident. I asked him was anything
different regarding his car or clothes, skin etc. He asked me
to wait while he checked out his car. Malcolm came back to the
phone rather puzzled, he found a type of dust imbedded in his
car on the passenger's side, roof and the front of the bonnet
(hood) also around the trim on the doors-when he shined a large
spotlight on the paint work he found that the colors were
imbedded into paint work of the car -- like a brown, creamy
color and other colors seemed to glitter. When he ran his hand
over the paint work he found that the dust particles felt like
find sand paper. I asked him to scrape off some of the residue
so that we can have it examined. On questioning Malcolm - it
would appear a time distortion (lapse) had taken place. Usually
it only takes him about 15 minutes to reach home from Brassall,
the time he arrived home at 8:50 PM. It would appear that he
had an hour of lost time. Malcolm has been a truck driver for
many years. Up until now has never had any interest in or taken
notice of UFO's. A pretty down to earth chap. I will interview
him tomorrow. Thanks to Rev. Glennys Mackay, J.P. Continental
Director MUFON AUST. & NZ.

FLYING TRIANGLES OURS

MUFON's Tom Deuley writes that we might be interested in the
new "Popular Science Magazine" for December 2001. There are two
aircraft, either of which the public would likely report as a
UFO. One of these, on page 39, is Boeing's X-45, an Unmanned
Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV). It has completed ground testing and
is likely in flight-testing. The second one, on page 71, had no
name or designator mentioned, but has a wingspan of 38 meters,
is triangular, and can take off and land vertically, (hover).
It is beginning to appear that most of the black triangular
UFOs are ours, but as I said - no surprise. There is no telling
how long these have been around. Thanks to Tom Deuley

IRAN LITTLE-KNOWN FORMATION RESEMBLES FACE ON MARS

Mac Tonnies writes, "There is a decidedly unusual face
formation located in Iran. This artificial-appearing feature
shares a striking, if superficial, resemblance to the Face on
Mars as revealed in its entirety by the Mars Global Surveyor.
The highly symmetrical base "platform" and tapered "chin."

The exact archaeological/geological history of Iran's peculiar
"platform" is presently unknown. As noted previously, NASA has
written the Face off as a "hill" based on one JPL employee's
personal position that the Face "reminds" him of a hill. JPL's
"hill" is the perfectly natural-looking Middle Butte formation,
exposed by Lan Fleming of the Society for Planetary SETI
Research. If the formation in the Mideast is natural, it is
obviously a far superior example of bisymmetry occurring via
normal geological forces than Middle Butte. It appears Iran's
"platform" is a deliberately sculpted monument, and we are
presented with the opportunity to see what a "Face-like"
terrestrial artifact has to tell us about the enigmatic visage
on Mars' surface. Such comparative anthropology is a crucial
component in any attempt to assess possible extraterrestrial
artifacts. Thanks to Mac Tonnies
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html and
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/PAAI_Surveys.htm
l

Editor's Note: I have repeatedly told our readers that various
features on Mars appear artificial. Tunnels, buildings, walls,
pyramids, water and plants are evident. These could
theoretically be natural on Mars, but they are most likely
evidence of life and cultural activities. This seems
particularly likely because of relationship and symmetry of the
artifacts in relations to each other. JPL who is charge of the
exploration deliberately misrepresents the Face and other
features to the public. Even relatively unimportant features
such as blue skies are intentionally changed to red skies, so
the public remains unsuspecting. This inexcusable
misrepresentation of the space science data is deliberate. I
ask why? The logical answer is they have been ordered to hide
the fact that there is life in space and on other planets.

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over a
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving
at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender
2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come
help our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.

Happy Holidays, George Filer

---------------------------------------------------------------







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   Dec > Dec 13

                          Secrecy News -- 12/12/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:25:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:07:45 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/12/01



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 12, 2001


**      GARFINKEL BIDS FAREWELL
**      BIOLOGICAL AGENT DATA EXEMPTED FROM DISCLOSURE
**      FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE DELAYED AGAIN
**      WEN HO LEE DEPOSED
**      RESOURCES

  GARFINKEL BIDS FAREWELL

Steven Garfinkel, who has overseen the evolution of the
government secrecy system as director of the Information
Security Oversight Office for the past two decades, gave a
stirring valedictory address yesterday in anticipation of his
upcoming retirement.

"I leave government most proud of having protected every bit of
the classified information with which I have been entrusted,"
Garfinkel said.

But classification is only half of the story. "No one can be
expected to take secrecy seriously if far too much information
that is no longer sensitive remains classified."

"That is why I leave government equally proud of the
unprecedented accomplishments in declassification that we in the
executive branch have achieved over the past seven years. Long
after all of us have been forgotten, these hundreds of millions
of pages of declassified records will still be telling the story
of our government and our nation."

Speaking to the American Society of Access Professionals, an
audience comprised mainly of freedom of information officers and
other government information workers, he extolled the importance
of their work.

"What you do every day on the job is what is truly meaningful in
the area of access to government information," he said. By
comparison, official pronouncements like the recent Attorney
General memorandum on the Freedom of Information Act are "all
but meaningless."

"As an access professional, you play a critical role in
establishing and maintaining the openness that sets us apart,
that defines our democracy," Garfinkel said.

The prepared text of Mr. Garfinkel's remarks is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/garfinkel.html

Garfinkel's colleagues and friends are organizing a celebration
in his honor on January 30, 2002. Security clearances are not
required. An invitation providing further information is posted
here (in PowerPoint format):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/retirement.ppt


BIOLOGICAL AGENT DATA EXEMPTED FROM DISCLOSURE

Congress is poised to adopt new legislation that will exempt
from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act information
about the locations and quantities of certain biological agents
and toxins.

The new FOIA exemption was included in the Senate version of the
pending defense appropriations bill, adopted last week, and in a
House bioterrorism response bill:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/dod-bio.html

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr3448.html#disc

Similar language was also approved in the House in October.

"I don't have a problem with the FOIA exemption," said one
government scientist, since it would apply "only to information
that was collected for the purpose of implementing biological
agent registration [of agent locations and quantities]."

"However, I wouldn't want this provision to prevent publication
by an agency of a scientific paper attributed to a particular
lab that makes it clear that select agents were used at that
facility," the scientist said.

This unintended consequence could be averted by inserting a new
provision in the legislation to permit disclosure for purposes
of "promoting scientific research," in addition to the existing
allowance for disclosure "protecting the public health and
safety."

"I would personally argue that scientific research is necessary
to protect public health and safety -- making this addition
unnecessary -- but I'm not sure that everyone else would agree,"
the scientist said.


FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE DELAYED AGAIN

The long-delayed volume of the official Foreign Relations of the
United States that documents US policy towards Greece and Cyprus
in the mid-1960s is still delayed.

Release of some 1500 printed copies of the volume has been
postponed for nearly two years, reportedly because of CIA
concerns that documentation of its intervention in Greek
elections four decades ago could precipitate acts of anti-US
terrorism in Greece.

In an October 2001 status report, the State Department said the
FRUS volume on Greece had a "publication target" of December
2001.

But a State Department official this week refused to comment on
the volume's current status.

"I would if I could," said the official, who is ordinarily very
helpful. But "I'm in the 'don't ask, don't tell' mode. So no
comment."

No explanation for the new delay was immediately forthcoming.
But in a possibly related development, the Greek newspaper Ta
Nea in Athens reported on December 9 that US and UK security
agencies are pressing "harder than ever" for apprehension of the
Greek terrorist organization November 17. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/12/nov17.html


WEN HO LEE DEPOSED

Former Los Alamos scientist Wen Ho Lee was recently deposed in a
lawsuit brought by the conservative activist organization
Judicial Watch, representing former Energy Department
intelligence official Notra Trulock.

Wen Ho Lee was the object of an aggressive prosecution in
1999-2000 that ultimately collapsed, with Lee pleading guilty to
one felony count of mishandling classified information, while
earning an apology from the court for the abuse that he endured
in the course of his nine-month pre-trial incarceration.

Now Mr. Trulock and Judicial Watch are suing Wen Ho Lee for
supposedly defaming Trulock.

But Lee said he didn't even know who Trulock was. "I know he sue
me. That's all."

Among the lawsuit's allegations is the claim that Mr. Trulock
was defamed by certain affidavits placed on the web site
wenholee.org which suggested that Trulock was a racist or that
he had singled out Lee for investigation because he was Chinese.

But the premise of this Judicial Watch claim is mistaken insofar
as the affidavits in question were never posted on the
wenholee.org web site, but rather were published on the
Federation of American Scientists web site. Wenholee.org merely
provided embedded links to the documents on the FAS site.
(Besides which, Wen Ho Lee has no responsibility for the
contents of his supporters' web site.)

The transcript of the rather excruciating October 10 deposition
of Lee was released late last month and is posted here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/79/Leedeposition.htm

The judge in the case ruled that Lee had improperly declined to
answer too many of Judicial Watch's questions and a further
deposition has been scheduled for later this month, according to
an Associated Press report.


RESOURCES

The indictment of suspected al Qaeda member Zacarias Moussaoui,
announced by the Justice Department yesterday, is available
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/mous_indict.html

Members of the House of Representatives paid tribute to the late
CIA officer Johnny Micheal Spann in a resolution adopted
yesterday:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/h121101.html

A bill "to provide for the sharing of certain foreign
intelligence information with local law enforcement personnel"
has been introduced by Senators Schumer, Clinton, Leahy and
Hatch. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s1615.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this command in the body of the
message:  subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 13

                Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:55:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:10:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Goldstein



 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:21:14 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
 >Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335

 >ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

 >ISSUE NO. 335 -  22 NOVEMBER 2001

 >by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
 >(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

 >Contents:

 >- C.I.S.U. Magazine Becomes a Quarterly
 >- UFO Lecture At CCR Euratom
 >- A UFO Book From CICAP, Too
 >- Riccione: No New Year's UFOs

<snip>

 >Riccione: No New Year's UFOs

 >The American attacks of 11 September have derailed the landing
 >of UFOs in the center of Riccione on New Year's Night.

 >The Councillorship of Tourism had actually planned "The Landing
 >of Spacecraft with Lights and Lasers," in Roma Square, as a
 >pyrotechnic closure to a promotional campaign which, since this
 >Spring, has seized upon UFOs as a testimonial to Romagna, until
 >July's landing hoax scandal involving traces.

Hi lucky Listerions,

As Jimbo Morty recently said to Alfie Lehmberg, "Huh"? Was this
a hoaxed Italian landing in with hoaxed landing traces, or what?
Can someone fill in this question? Hey, Larry buddy? Please put
down your beer and check this out.

Who knows, I may have read a report on this incident right here
on this hallowed list, only to have it fall through the holes in
my herbalizrd memory retrieval software.

But, I would have remembered faked UFO landing traces. So, once
again, huh? What is Romagna?

 >The airliners hijacked and crashed over New York and Washington
 >rendered this an impossibility, however. Following the
 >already-announced ceasing of the campaign built around alien
 >visitors, it was therefore necessary  with good reason  also to
 >abandon the UFO invasion of San Silvestro.

 >[Il Resto del Carlino, Rimini Edition, 8 November; collaboration
 >by Roberto Labanti.]

<snip>

I can certainly understand why the "UFO invasion of San
Silvestro" was canceled after Sept. 11. However, if next year
you decide to restage the "Landing Of Spacecraft With Lights and
Lasers" and/or the invasion, please remember to post an early
announcement on this list. It could be quite a spectacle.


Herr Josh Goldstein <g>
Berlin











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                   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:46:18 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:24:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Rudiak



 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:24:05 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:07:24 -0600

 >>I've recently received some information in the form of an
 >>observation on the activities of one James (ashamed of his
 >>apostrophe?) Oberg. Herr Oberg, arguably the ufological
 >>negativist's preeminent apologist and pretender to the
 >>skeptibunky throne of Philip Klass (an heir apparent with no
 >>hair apparent and a likely product of hairy parents?), is
 >>perhaps nothing but a crass shill for the politics of
 >>axe-grinding deceit, it seems.

 >This is precious, I've just got to share it with my buddies, and
 >it may well be worth a year-end bonus from my handlers that will
 >finally enable me to purchase that island in the Bahamas I've
 >had my eye on. Y'all come visit!

 >As to what apostrophe, or what Germanic insinuations are
 >referenced, I'm as clueless as the next rationale being...
 ><grin>

 >I take it then that the 'X-15 UFO Case' is settled?

 >JimO

Would anybody buy a used car from this man?

As anybody who followed Oberg's performance can verify, the only
things that were clearly settled from the X-15 debate were that:

1. "Aerospace expert" James Oberg seemed to have a very hard
    time getting certain factual information about the X-15
    correct.

2. James Oberg also seemed to manufacture totally fallacious
    information in order to try to salvage his orginal debunking
    "explanation."

3. James Oberg never apologized for or explained his curious,
    inane "errors."

4. James Oberg ducked a challenges to explain the anomalous
    object described by X-15 pilot Bob White, namely a) What the
    heck exactly was it? b) How the heck did it get tens of feet
    from the X-15 off to the side of the pilot's cabin? c) How
    the heck did it remain motionless relative to the X-15? 5.
    After all this, all he has to say is "I take it then that the
    'X-15 UFO Case' is settled."

Good ole Herr Oberg, as slippery as ever.


New Herr Oberg alert!!

Remember the Eugene Cernan UFO quote on the Net that Oberg tried
to claim was fallacious and how the "UFO believers" couldn't
provide him with a citation?

Remember how it turned out to be a correct quote from a genuine
article in the Los Angeles Times on a NASA press conference
involving the Apollo17 crew?

Remember how Oberg said he was going to try to find the original
videotape and transcript to verify that the quote was correct?

Remember how I predicted he wasn't going to find anything and
would somehow try to spin it instead into the Times reporter
misinterpreting or misquoting Cernan?

Remember how I joking said that Oberg was NASA's Taliban thought
police trying to discredit even relatively benign astronaut UFO
quotes such as Cernan's?

Well read on! I have been alerted by others about Oberg just
posting this on another group. I guess it got too hot for Herr
Oberg here on UpDates after his X-15 debacle.

Notice how Oberg tries to spin the story. He is nothing if not
predictable.

http://junjun.com/cgi-bin/boards/whispers/config.pl?read=24625

[Whispers is junjun.com's UFO discussion forum --ebk]

----------------------------------

Cernan UFO Quote is Bogus (YAWN!!)
Posted By: jimo <jamesoberg@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, 12 December 2001, at 12:36 p.m.

There's a common Internet quote attributed to astronaut Cernan
that he believes UFOs are real.

Today I received a letter dated December 10, 2001, from Claire
D. Johnson, executive secretary to ex-astronaut Gene Cernan's
current business enterprise. I had faxed her several questions
for Cernan regarding the 1973 Los Angeles Times alleged UFO
quotations.

Regarding the interview where he supposedly said he believed
UFOs were alien visitors, "Captain Cernan said it's 'not true',
or has been misinterpreted." Did Nick Chriss's article
accurately reflect Captain Cernan's view: "No."

Did Cernan ever make the remark that he thought UFOs 'were
somebody else, some other civilization'" Wrote Johnson, "Captain
Cernan said he never said that about UFOs." Regarding Internet
postings that claim that Cernan believes UFOs are real, she
wrote, "Captain Cernan said, "not me (until I see one)".

Johnson added this comment with Cernan's permission: "Captain
Cernan has been in space three times, been to the Moon twice,
and has been on or around the Moon about nine days. He should
have had ample time 'to meet' a UFO, but has not! The stories
are too incredible."

Her letter ended, "I hope the above helps clarify Captain
Cernan's beliefs and position."

http://junjun.com/cgi-bin/boards/whispers/config.pl?read=24634

Michael, go back to sleep.. (snore)


Posted By: jimo <jamesoberg@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, 12 December 2001, at 4:05 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Cernan UFO Quote is Bogus (YAWN!!) (Michael)

The WWW UFO sites are full of a quotation attributed to Cernan
that he thinks UFOs are alien spacecraft.

I have established that the quotation is bogus by asking Cernan.

It has nothing to do whether UFOs exist or not.

It has everything to do with whether UFO proponents have any
intellectual integrity.

Those who are awake, that is... (grin)

Here is the common version:

Commander Eugene Cernan
Eugene Cernan was commander of Apollo 17. In a Los Angeles Times
article in 1973 he said, about UFOs: "...I've been asked (about
UFOs) and I've said publicly I thought they (UFOs) were
somebody else, some other civilization."

Turns out, he says he never said that.

Do you expect any of the UFO sites to correct their material?

Laugh of the month, yuck yuck!

----------------------------------


Gadzooks, the man has no shame!

The article was genuine. Oberg provided no evidence that the
quote was inaccurate as reported in the LA Times. Did Oberg even
fax the original LA Times article, or just a single quote
excerpted from that article? What happened to the original NASA
videotape and transcript that he said he was going to check? In
the end all he can come up with is a canned denial from Cernan's
secretary 30 years after the fact (assuming he didn't make this
up, like he seems to make up a lot of his other material).

 From this he claims that he, James Oberg, NASA's Minister of
Truth, has "established" that the Cernan quote was "bogus," yes,
definitely bogus. If the "UFO proponents" don't immediately
"correct their material" to reflect his new politically correct
version they have no "intellectual integrity."

Seems to me, it's not the "UFO proponents" who are the ones
lacking in intellectual integrity here.


David Rudiak








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              Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:44:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars... -


Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,

I was really just testing the water to see what the reaction
would be to a speculative theory which I have, and it seems that
my theory should be readily accepted by this forum.

I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
reach the same conclusion.

Here are two facts which I am sure everyone will agree with and
are really very obvious, but don't occur to people without some
prompting:

1. The colour of the Moon is remarkably similar to that of most
    varieties of cheese.

2. The Moon has a strikingly similar shape to many varieties of
    cheese.

These facts started me thinking that perhaps it really is
cheese?

"Aaah", I hear you say, "astronauts have landed on the Moon, and
they say it is made of rock!".

Nonsense! My response to that is that it is well documented that
the moon landing was faked in order for NASA to secure Federal
funding. This fact has even been broadcast on television! No
educated person believes that the Moon landings really took
place!

Take it from me, the cheese industry is the only organisation to
have set foot on the Moon.

"But you can see the craters from meteors on the surface!"

Yes, a minority of them are meteor craters, but most of them are
in fact cheese mines, which have an identical appearance. It is
obvious that if so many craters were produced by meteor impacts,
there would be no life on Earth, because we would experience
proportionally far more meteor impacts than the Moon, due to our
greater mass.

If you look at the Moon through a telescope, you can just make
out the roads used to convey the cheese from the mines to the
processing plants (which also show up as regular formations on
the surface).

This activity is also the only possible explanation for the
reported flashes of light from the surface, which is caused by
sunlight reflecting off polished metal and glass surfaces which
are rotated to capture energy from the sun for use by the
processing plants.

"But everyone knows that cheese is made from cows milk!"

It is true that some speciality "cheeses" are manufactured from
cows milk, but this only makes up a tiny proportion of global
cheese production. Cheese produced in this way is in fact
artificial, and could only deliver sufficient quantities until
the development of mass-marketing, which fortuitously coincided
with Earth's earliest ventures into space.

Just consider how much milk would be required to satisfy market
demand for cheese on a worldwide scale-the number of cattle
required to produce such a quantity would not fit on the planet.
Even if the cattle were stacked in special high rise buildings,
the amount of Methane produced by them would poison the
atmosphere.

It would however be an alternative to the internet for a source
of bovine solid waste products......

"It would be too expensive to ship the cheese from the Moon to
Earth!".

This is a blatant fallacy. Firstly, the gravity on the Moon is
far less than the gravity on Earth. It is obvious that once you
get a mile or so above the surface of the Moon, the Earth's
gravity will draw the cheese containers towards it, so it costs
very little.

Very large containers are used, and they are programmed to land
in remote parts of the Antarctic ocean where they are recovered
by secret superfreighters.

Sometimes, the trajectory of these containers passes over
populated areas, and this is a major source of UFO reports.

The location also reduces preservation costs while the bulk
cheese is processed for the retail market, as refrigeration
isn't needed at the Antarctic processing plants.

The cost of production of cheese in this way, as opposed to
maintaining livestock, processing milk, and extended storage
during the maturation process on Earth is less than one percent
of organic production costs.

"Somebody would find out about it, and tell the world!"

This is the macabre part-the workforce used in the production
are genetically engineered clones. They are mute, and of low
intelligence, but are trained for specific tasks in the
industry. They have no knowledge of the rest of humanity, and
accept their existence without  question or pay of any kind.
They live exclusively on a diet of cheese. They are, in fact, a
genetically engineered slave race.

The authorities are given a portion of the profits to ensure
their co-operation, and they actively suppress any information
about the Lunar cheese industry in order to protect this
undeclared income which is used for their black budgets.

The retail industry is totally unaware of the facts, and
believes that all cheese is produced from milk.

"What other evidence is there to support the theory?"

1. Global warming. As cheese is excavated from the Moon, the
mass of the Moon is gradually reduced. This mass atrophy is not
immediately obvious, and is very minute, but it affects the
tidal systems and hence the weather systems on Earth. This
evidence is all around us, but Science has not officially
considered the true source of the phenomenon yet.

2. The physical characteristics of the cheese.

Artificial (ie produced from milk) cheese has natural blemishes
caused by the organic biochemical processes involved. Real
cheese (Lunar) is very smooth in texture, with no air pockets
due to the lack of any significant Lunar atmosphere.

3. The reaction of the cheese industry to enquiries about the
theory.

If the theory was incorrect, you would expect the cheese
industry to provide verifiable statistics to show where all the
cheese in the market place comes from.

Instead, they attempt to discredit the theory by describing it
as "Wild, unfounded speculation, with no basis in reality",
without offering any counter-argument. This is definite proof
that they have something to hide. A number of investigators
following up this theory have disappeared or died under
mysterious circumstances.

4. The amount of "Scientific" expeditions to the Antarctic.

These missions are a cover for industry related personell to
make business trips to the area. What is there in the region for
Scientists to study? Just snow and water. The claims of an
abundance of meteorites in the area are false, but large numbers
are shipped from the Moon in the cheese containers then
"discovered" on the snow plains.

This is in addition to the the other evidence mentioned before,
ie the similarity in colour and shape, the evidence of mining
activity, processing plants and roads, the flashes from the
solar power stations, the Lunar landing hoax, the excessive
presence of meteor impact craters, reports of UFO's, the fact
that Earth could not support sufficient milk production to
satisfy demand, and the false reports about the cost of
transportation.

"So what if the Moon is made of cheese? I don't care, it's not
important!"

The more I dig, the more convinced I am that a revelation will
be made in the near future. If we continue to consume cheese at
the current rate, in fifty years time the effect on the Moon
will be obvious, together with the effects on our ecosystem, and
an alternative source of cheese will have to be found. Cheese
will be the driving force behind space exploration, so it is of
vital importance to humanity. Because of the importance of this
matter, I would like everyone to contact their MP/Senator and
bring it to their attention.

"This is wild speculation!"

Yes, but speculation is the precursor to discovery. Mark my
words, it will all turn out to be as I have written, and my
investment of research time will be justified! I have devoted
eight years of my life towards researching and exposing this
scandal. Now is the time to confront our political leaders and
representatives with the proven facts!

Regards, Joe










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                    Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:32:37 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:46:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Gates


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Roswell Is Alive And Well
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:47 +0100


 >Hello to the List,

 >I wish first to add my little piece of "critical thinking" to
 >Karl Pflock's last post to the List, regarding Don Ecker's
 >article in UFO Magazine which revealed that Senator Thurmond had
 >signed an authorization for his preface, with the mention of the
 >provisional title of the book "The Roswell book".


Note it was Don who made the "claim" and showed an alleged
document that mentions a so called "The Roswell book."

Having been involved in the publishing industry a few years back
I can tell you that had the Senator actually written the forward
knowing it was connected to or about Roswell, he would have made
some direct mention or reference to it in his intro.

The fact that he did not tells me that he wrote the intro based
upon the I walked with Giants book or whatever that was.

 >Karl Pflock wrote, on November 19:

 ><snip>

 >>I made a copy of Ecker's piece available to Senator Thurmond's
 >>chief of staff, and a few days ago, I received in return copies
 >>of several very interesting items. One of these is the release
 >>form in the senator's office file, on which ALL the blanks in
 >>text are, well, blank. No "undersigned," no "author," but, most
 >>important, no book title, not even the generic "Roswell Book."
 >>This clearly is the same form reproduced in UFO, as the
 >>senator's signature and date of signing match--but it is as it
 >>was when the original left the senator's office, BEFORE someone
 >>(gee, wonder who?) typed in "Roswell Book." Hmmm...

 >Well, at first sight, it seems that this answer by the Senator's
 >chief of staff settles the matter. But on second thought, two
 >options seem to remain open, which are probably unprovable.

It should settle it.

 >First option: Senator Thurmond signed a blank authorization and
 >later 'someone' filled the blank with the provisional title
 >"Roswell Book" (please note that it is rather unusual to sign a
 >blank authorization) ;

The first option is likely what happened. It is not unusual to
sign a blank authorization as you put it, or write an intro to a
book without actually reading every page. I have known people
who have done that, as well as only reading one chapter. I have
known others who wrote the intro solely based upon a
representation provided to them by the individual.


 >Second option: Senator Thurmond signed the authorization with
 >the provisional title on it. When the book was published, his
 >office denied it, and now they are compelled to stick to that
 >line. Then make a copy, delete the title, and send a copy of it
 >to Karl Pflock.

This is highly unlikely.

 >The only sure thing is 'someone' is lying, but who? I am afraid
 >it is going to be very hard to answer that, but I suggest that
 >we wait for an answer from Don Ecker.

I pretty well know what that answer is going to be. What I would
be curious about is to ask Don why Corso was claiming towards
the end that the book got stroked by Birnes and that some/part
all was not exactly what he said or whatever. Contrast that to
Birnes who apparently claimed that he faithfully scribed every
pearl that Corso vomited out.

<snip>

 >It seems to me that it has drawn too little attention on this
 >List. Here is a man who was sent by his chief, Major Easley, to
 >a crash site, to see what was going on and report to him. He
 >saw, from a distance, a crashed craft. As he was told to keep it
 >secret, he assumed that it was a crashed B-29, with an atomic
 >bomb.

You know what the skeptibunkers would say? It would go something
like "Well the witness is mixing up some as yet to be identified
accident involving a nuclear bomb with the Roswell incident."
Skeptibunkers are predictable. Note now that I have mentioned
this the Skeptibunkers will come up with some other obscure line
of rationalization to dismiss that witness testimony.

Cheers,

Robert









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:48:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:16 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

<snip>

 >Here is another pearl of wisdom with probably zero probative
 >value. Why does the structure in Iran bear a closer resemblance
 >to the late Ayatollah Khomeini than it does to the face on Mars?

I don't think the Iran platform looks like a face; it was the
general structure and shape that caught my eye.  However, you'd
think that the people who built this would have had a culturally
significant reason for doing so, so maybe the "headdress"-like
platform we see is exactly that.  I would love some
straight-down photos of this thing.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
          Visit http://mactonnies.com











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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:36:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:48:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:16 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:04:26 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000

<major snip>

 >Here is another pearl of wisdom with probably zero probative
 >value. Why does the structure in Iran bear a closer resemblance
 >to the late Ayatollah Khomeini than it does to the face on Mars?

 >Josh Goldstein

Hello Josh:

I once saw a small white cloud drift by that perfectly resembled
a doggy "calling card", the sort you find on the lawn, except
for the color.


Best wishes

- Larry











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   Dec > Dec 13

                        Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch

From: Larry  <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:47:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:49:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:16:33 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Oregon Red Sphere
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:23:20 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere

 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:40 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Oregon Red Sphere
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Not too long ago a 74 year old photographer obtained a unique photo:
 >>>a red glowing sphere or orb during the _daylight_ and _close up!

 >>>This might be a breakthrough photograph in the "science"
 >>>of orbology(???).

 >>>Anyway, check it out!

 >>>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html

 >>Very interesting. There is a possible second witness one street
 >>away I take it.

 >Not confirmed. There may have been some confusion on the part of
 >of the police who apparently took a report of something that
 >happened "somewhere."

 >>If I have this right, the red ball-of-light (BOL) rose from
 >>virtual ground level to the tall treetops, then made a 90-degree
 >>turn toward the coast, presumably West.

 >>Did the witness have the impression, or give you the impression,
 >>that this was a case of directed, or intelligently controlled
 >>flight or maneuvering?

 >>This would be as opposed to some dimly understood natural
 >>phenomenon like ball lightning might be.

 >>The 90 degree turn does not necessitate a non-natural
 >>explanation of course.

 >Witness did not imply "intent" or "intelligence" but
 >just reported what it did.

That is refreshing.

 >This could be a TRUFO (TRue UFO) of a non-intelligent
 >type ... a previously unknown/unrecognized natural
 >phenomenon. (Note: TRUFOs that give the impression of
 >intelligence... such as by taking avoidance maneuvers
 >or being (apparently) craft of some sort may also be
 >"natural phenomena," but on a level of "natural" that
 >is not yet accepted by science/scientists as real.)

If this is something like ball-lightning, its pretty interesting
just for the color and mobility. Maybe there is some subtle clue
to BL hidden here.

If its an intelligently directed "object", its near transparency
suggests (to me) some high degree of camouflage which would be
even more interesting.

What I cannot see is a misperception of something entirely
mundane, given we take the man at his word.


Best

- Larry









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                  Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Russo

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:09:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:52:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335 - Russo


 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:55:04 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 335


Hi Josh!

 >As Jimbo Morty recently said to Alfie Lehmberg, "Huh"? Was this
 >a hoaxed Italian landing in with hoaxed landing traces, or what?

Right so, sir!

 >Who knows, I may have read a report on this incident right here
 >on this hallowed list, only to have it fall through the holes in
 >my herbalizrd memory retrieval software.

Just to clear you doubts away, here's the full story you may
have missed:

From: "Italian UFO Newsflash" No. 323, 16 August 2001

Traces in Riccione: A Publicity Stunt

The matter of the hoaxed landing of a UFO likewise had legal
repercussions in Riccione, which has held center-stage since the
end of July.

The news reports issued on the radio and TV during last 26 July
(and relayed by the press agencies to the newspapers of the
following day) concerned the discovery in Riccione, in the
vicinity of the Aquafan amusement park, of three mysterious,
circular traces of burned grass having a diameter of 2.8 meters
and arranged in a triangular formation of 17 meters on each
side, after the custodian had seen a strange cloud lifting off
of the ground at 7 a.m. that morning. The traces, which appeared
to be covered with a strange white substance, emitted an acrid
and pungent odor.

First to rush to the scene were the Carabinieri, who cordoned
off the area, then hundreds of curious onlookers, journalists,
photographers and finally ufologists particularly those from the
CUN, who lifted samples and spoke of reports of strange lights
over the hills that same night. But already the following day,
the news began spreading that the whole thing was simply a type
of prank orchestrated by no less than the Town of Riccione, as a
publicity stunt in conjunction with the area tourism initiative
=93UFO Vacations,=94 in view of a series of tourist events.

The whole episode was first confirmed by the Carabinieri, then
by the very Town Councilor for Tourism: a publicity agency had
evidently been organizing a well-planned stunt for months,
comprising false traces, fake reports of sightings, gadgets,
T-shirts and even the unbeknownst participation of ufologists in
the creation of an acoustic chamber for a promotional blitz
leading up to a press conference announcement slated for 5
August.

One aspect of the matter which still remained unclear appeared
to be the co-involvement of some students from Rome
participating in =93Men in Red=94 (i.e., UFO buffs who hang around
extreme left social centers), who apparently lent a hand in the
appearance of the false traces.

At the beginning of August, the publicity machine effectively
took charge, with the announcement of the three-day event
entitled =93Riccione, The Last Planet Before Earth=94; then, the
Festival of Intergalactic Friendship (a sort of carnival
inspired by the Star Wars saga), during which, over the course
of the months from August to October, there will continue
exhibits of alien comic strips and iconography, plus various
other folklore initiatives that are more-or-less space-themed.

But the local representatives of the National Ufological Center
who not only were not in on the joke, but rather felt that they
had been set up, shamefully exploited and perhaps had their own
health exposed to the risk of potentially-toxic substances
(caustic soda and ammonia) first announced and then filed a
petition with the magistrate in which there were argued such
charges as the false dissemination of news reports capable of
disquieting the public. But most importantly and more than
understandably, the representatives had the intention of
safeguarding their own reputation and that of the UFO argument.

Other points of contention then came from the town=92s council
minority, which contested the expenditure of 300 Million Lire
(plus 150 from the region) for the series of events as well as
from Riccione=92s very own Councilor of Social Services and
Majority Party Group Leader.

Various considerations could be offered regarding this matter,
its causes, the responsibility for it, the way it was handled,
and its consequences. But let us restrain ourselves to
expressing disappointment and concern about the manner in which,
for many, the UFO argument continues to remain within the realm
of frivolously-extravagant and mercenary folklore.

[Resto del Carlino, Rimini edition, 27 July - 9 August; Corriere
di Rimini, 28 July 9 August; Ufoitalia, 27 July - 2 August; La
Rete (CUN), 28 July - 9 August; La Repubblica, 2 August;
SocioUfo, 6 - 16 August; collaboration by Andrea Bovo, Stefania
Genovese, Roberto Labanti and Gildo Person=E8.]



 >But, I would have remembered faked UFO landing traces. So, once
 >again, huh? What is Romagna?

Romagna is a region (rectius: part of the region called
Emilia-Romagna, in the Northeast of Italy).


Best regards

Edoardo Russo

Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.cisu.org     e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org











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                 Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' -

From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:49:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:02:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' -


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:41:09 -0600

 >Today I received a letter dated December 10, 2001, from Claire
 >D. Johnson, executive secretary to ex-astronaut Gene Cernan's
 >current business enterprise. I had faxed her several questions
 >for Cernan regarding the 1973 Los Angeles Times alleged UFO
 >quotations.

 >Regarding the interview where he supposedly said he believed
 >UFOs were alien visitors, "Captain Cernan said it's 'not true',
 >or has been misinterpreted." Did Nick Chriss's article
 >accurately reflect Captain Cernan's view: "No."

 >Did Cernan ever make the remark that he thought UFOs 'were
 >somebody else, some other civilization'" Wrote Johnson, "Captain
 >Cernan said he never said that about UFOs." Regarding Internet
 >posts that claim that Cernan believes UFOs are real, she wrote,
 >"Captain Cernan said, "not me (until I see one)".

 >Johnson added this comment with Cernan's permission: "Captain
 >Cernan has been in space three times, been to the Moon twice,
 >and has been on or around the Moon about nine days. He should
 >have had ample time 'to meet' a UFO, but has not! The stories
 >are too incredible."

 >Her letter ended, "I hope the above helps clarify Captain
 >Cernan's beliefs and position."

Jim,

Somehow the question seems to have been distorted. I understood
the question (from you) was whether the old quote was accurate.

Have you yet checked the transcripts at NASA? If not, why not?
You said you would. I did way back then and checked with Cernan.
I doubt if he remembers.

If the newspaper quote is what he actually said, that is it. It
didn't say "I believe in UFOs" - whatever that means). It
certainly didn't say he had seen one.

I, for one, am certainly not saying that all quotes on the
Internet from Astronauts or anybody else are accurate.

Colonel Weaver, in his big Roswell book, misrepresented two
quotes, for example.

Years ago, Gordon Cooper, in a phone conversation expressed
concern to me about many inaccurate quotes attributed to
astronauts. What did he say in the NASA Press Conference in
1973? Jim, that is the question. You raised it. Very simple and
straightforward.

Let's not bring in red-herrings.


Stan Friedman










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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:04:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:54:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:36:41 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:16 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:04:26 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000

 ><major snip>

 >>Here is another pearl of wisdom with probably zero probative
 >>value. Why does the structure in Iran bear a closer resemblance
 >>to the late Ayatollah Khomeini than it does to the face on Mars?

 >>Josh Goldstein

 >Hello Josh:

 >I once saw a small white cloud drift by that perfectly resembled
 >a doggy "calling card", the sort you find on the lawn, except
 >for the color.


Your difficulties with perception and cognition hardly seem
relevant to finding a scientific basis for distinguishing
artificial from natural formations. Likewise for mystic vision
of the Ayatollah Khomeini and long-winded treatises on cheese.











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                   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:08:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:55:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:46:18 EST
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Gadzooks, the man has no shame!

 >The article was genuine. Oberg provided no evidence that the
 >quote was inaccurate as reported in the LA Times. Did Oberg even
 >fax the original LA Times article, or just a single quote
 >excerpted from that article? What happened to the original NASA
 >videotape and transcript that he said he was going to check? In
 >the end all he can come up with is a canned denial from Cernan's
 >secretary 30 years after the fact (assuming he didn't make this
 >up, like he seems to make up a lot of his other material).

 >From this he claims that he, James Oberg, NASA's Minister of
 >Truth, has "established" that the Cernan quote was "bogus," yes,
 >definitely bogus. If the "UFO proponents" don't immediately
 >"correct their material" to reflect his new politically correct
 >version they have no "intellectual integrity."

After the hatchet job Oberg did on Gordon Cooper for his
politically incorrect public statements on UFOs, maybe Cernan
instructed his secretary to tell Oberg what he wanted to hear
just to get rid of him. It's certainly a possiblity.









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                       JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:40:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:00:58 -0500
Subject: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked


The 'Mars Face' is a much higher landform than JPL said it is in
their May24th 'Science News' article about the April 2001 image
of the landform taken in April 2001. The Mars Orbiter Laser
Altimeter (MOLA) profiles of the Face are consistent with Dr.
Mark Carlotto's shape-from-shading analysis of the Viking
images.

While the actual MOLA profiles support Carlotto's model, they
don't 'prove' it's correct because, contrary to the false
assertions made in the NASA article, you cannot extrapolate the
overall shape of the landform from two MOLA profiles. (The
article also gave a number for the resolution of the MOLA that
is twice as high as the true downtrack resolution of the
instrument and at lest 4 times higher than the true crosstrack
resolution of the instrument. More public relations baloney.)

The MOLA profiles' maximum height is 90 meters (270 feet) higher
than the 800-foot (~240 meters) height asserted by JPL. That's
an error of 27% made with data from an instrument that is
supposed to be accurate to within 10 meters. If the peak height
is actually 400 meters, which seems likely based on Carlotto's
work, then the height claimed  by JPL is off by 160 meters or
42% of the true peak height.

JPL's erroneous height estimate probably resulted in more than
just an inaccurate number: the 3D perspective image that
accompanied the NASA 'Science' article was apparently based on
this estimate. The depths of concavities like the two eye-like
features and heights of convex features like the 'Nose' ridge
were probably compressed by an amount similar to the 27% to 42%
compression of the overall height of the landform, producing the
flat and featureless result that JPL seems to prefer in its
'enhancements' of the Face.

The MOLA profiles are shown at:

http://www.VGL.org/webfiles/mars/face/mola/facemola.html









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                       Re: More On The X-15 - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:41:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:04:57 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Balaskas


Hi Errol!

Dropped by work today to pick up my mail (I finally got Vol.
15, No. 1 issue of the 'Journal of Scientific Exploration'
with Dr. Peter Sturrock's latest article on the Ubatuba UFO
fragments) and check my e-mails too.

I will be leaving for Cuba tomorrow afternoon and hope to
have further information about this newly discovered
submerged city which I suspect to be a pre-Noah's flood
civilization.

In case you did not get my Dec. 11 post to UFO UpDates, I am
forwarding it to you (with some small modifications) below.

Nick

-----

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 02:32:30 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: nikos <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Organization: York University
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Balaskas

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15
 >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:21:17 -0600

<snip>

 >Here's something else I just got.

<snip>

 >PILOT'S COMMENTS
 >X-15-3  Flight 3-7-14
 >Pilot: Major R. White

 >"After engine shutdown I engaged angle of attack hold at 6
 >degrees alpha, and I seemed to hold this all right. It wasn't
 >long after i went through 220,000 that I disengaged angle of
 >attack hold and just continued on over the top. It seemed like a
 >hell of a long time to get over the top. . . .

 >"While I was level I started noticing some things and I said,
 >'Now wait a minute they must be inside the cockpit,' but they
 >were outside the cockpit. It looked like perhaps it might have
 >been residue or frost or very small little things going by, I
 >was paying attention and focusing on what these things might
 >have been, and one time a piece of something about the size of
 >my hand, which looked like a piece of paper, went past just
 >going along with the airplane. It was there, there was no
 >question about it."

 >Q: Do you think it was frost?

 >A: This thing looked too big for that. It looked like a piece of
 >paper, almost the size of your hand.

 >Q: Whereabouts in relation to the airplane?

 >A: Just off to the left side, right on the window level. The
 >other ones were out on the right side, little somethings but I
 >couldn't distinguish what they were. There was no question about
 >it.

<snip>

Hi Jim,

Astronauts on space missions have reported lost or misplaced
items such as nuts and bolts floating around inside their
spacecraft under zero-g conditions so it is not surprising that
X-15 pilot Robert White initially thought the things he saw were
inside his cockpit. It is interesting that White thought that
the small little things (seen only outside his right window?)
could have been residue or frost but the thing which looked like
a piece of paper (seen outside his left window) was too large to
be frost.

This morning I was going through some old issues of the
'Canadian Space Gazette', the newsletter of the Canadian Space
Society (a local space club) and I found an article titled
'Astronaut UFO Sightings' (Jan/Feb 1997) written by you. Your
short verdicts to all, except one, astronaut UFO sightings in
the 'Fawcett List', as printed in 'The Edge of Reality' by Allen
Hynek and Jacques Vallee were frauds, fabrications,
exaggerations, misidentifications, etc. The exception was Robert
White's July 17, 1962 X-15 flight. Your verdict for this UFO
sighting was: "Important information withheld by authors.".

After all the comments and new facts about this particular X-15
flight, what is your present verdict on this UFO sighting in
near-Earth space?

Although not included in the very short 'Fawcett List' of
UFO sightings by astronauts, I am curious to know what your
conclusions are about UFO sightings in space by veteran
astronauts such as Story Musgrave (the space snakes he has
seen and even video recorded) and John Blaha ("Houston, this
is Discovery. We still have the alien spacecraft in
observance.") or even the UFOs seen by Apollo 11 astronauts
Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin and Michael Collins on their way to the
Moon as described in their own books?


Nick Balaskas








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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:18:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:18:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:08:54 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >After the hatchet job Oberg did on Gordon Cooper for his
 >politically incorrect public statements on UFOs, maybe Cernan
 >instructed his secretary to tell Oberg what he wanted to hear
 >just to get rid of him. It's certainly a possiblity.

Why not verify this ridiculous notion and write to her at:

Claire D. Johnson,
PO Box 19809,
Houston,
TX 77224.

Be sure to report back to us what she tells you!

Care to defend the credibility of Gordon Cooper's stories about
the 1957 Edwards 'UFO Landing'? The only 'hatchet' involved was
in chopping through uforic nonsense like the bogus 'Mercury-9
UFO' encounter that is often attributed to Cooper by Hynek and
others.

Let's start a new thread on this investigation. I'm proud of my
original research and the number of new witnesses I found and
interviewed.


Jim Oberg









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                  Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:26:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:18:14 -0600

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:08:54 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>After the hatchet job Oberg did on Gordon Cooper for his
 >>politically incorrect public statements on UFOs, maybe Cernan
 >>instructed his secretary to tell Oberg what he wanted to hear
 >>just to get rid of him. It's certainly a possiblity.

 >Why not verify this ridiculous notion and write to her at:

 >Claire D. Johnson,
 >PO Box 19809,
 >Houston,
 >TX 77224.

 >Be sure to report back to us what she tells you!

That's pretty moot, isn't it... She _won't_ maintain a
consistency? Don't insult us by presuming that your point is
somehow proved in the execution of this meaningless excercise...

 >Care to defend the credibility of Gordon Cooper's stories about
 >the 1957 Edwards 'UFO Landing'? The only 'hatchet' involved was
 >in chopping through uforic nonsense like the bogus 'Mercury-9
 >UFO' encounter that is often attributed to Cooper by Hynek and
 >others.

...and here's a little slight of poor debate's own hand... why
change the subject? Do you _need_ the digression?

 >Let's start a new thread on this investigation. I'm proud of my
 >original research and the number of new witnesses I found and
 >interviewed.

And if you were remotely believable (?), it would be perfect.
But I'd sooner trust OBL's opinion on Judaism than your opinion
on UFO's. I don't think that's just me. On examination? You're
just not very convincing. And good luck discrediting Hynek. He's
kept the boat afloat for 50 years, I think he'll survive your
petty salvoes and arguable strawman victories. And was that you
Spielberg booted off the set of CE3K? Boy, that's like being
banned from UpDates! <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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                        Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:41:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:34:48 -0500
Subject: Re: More On The X-15 - Oberg


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:41:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More On The X-15

 >This morning I was going through some old issues of the
 >'Canadian Space Gazette', the newsletter of the Canadian Space
 >Society (a local space club) and I found an article titled
 >'Astronaut UFO Sightings' (Jan/Feb 1997) written by you. Your
 >short verdicts to all, except one, astronaut UFO sightings in
 >the 'Fawcett List', as printed in 'The Edge of Reality' by Allen
 >Hynek and Jacques Vallee were frauds, fabrications,
 >exaggerations, misidentifications, etc. The exception was Robert
 >White's July 17, 1962 X-15 flight. Your verdict for this UFO
 >sighting was: "Important information withheld by authors.".

The entire, Skeptical Inquirer, 1978 article about Hynek's
nonsensical claims can be found at:

http://www.debunker.com/texts/astronaut_ufo.html
http://www.frii.com/~iufor/oberg01.htm
http://www.ufocus.org/oberg01.htm

The information withheld, of course, was that White described
the 'UFO' as small, close, and tumbling.

 >Although not included in the very short 'Fawcett List' of
 >UFO sightings by astronauts, I am curious to know what your
 >conclusions are about UFO sightings in space by veteran
 >astronauts such as Story Musgrave (the space snakes he has
 >seen and even video recorded)

Story's 'snake' was seen and photographed on his two flights
both right after deployment of IUS upper stages, so his view as
told to OMNI seems reasonable to me:

http://www.omnimag.com/archives/interviews/musgrave.html

OMNI: What inexplicable things have you seen out there?

Musgrave: You see satellites. I've seen Mir go by within 28
miles; other satellites and you don't know what they are, but
maybe just space debris. All kinds of debris come off space
ships, especially at the back end after the main engines shut
down and you open the doors: ice chips, oxygen or hydrogen,
stuff dumped from the engines. On two flights I've seen and
photographed what I call "the snake," like a seven-foot eel
swimming out there. It may be an uncritical rubber seal from the
main engines. In zero g it's totally free to maneuver, and it
has its own internal waves like it's swimming. All this debris
is white, reflecting sunlight, or you don't see it. Cruising
along with you at your velocity, it's still got its own
rotation. At zero g, things have an incredible freedom. It's an
extraordinary ballet.

 >and John Blaha ("Houston, this
 >is Discovery. We still have the alien spacecraft in
 >observance.")

That was reported by Don Ratsch (sts48@home.com), and discussed at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&threadm=xb9_4.79086%24VM3.606
631%40news.infostrada.it&rnum=8&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DUFO%2BOberg%2Bsolve%26hl%
3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rnum%3D8%26selm%3Dxb9_4.79086%2524VM3.606631%2540news.in
fostrada.it

where Don's retraction is shown:

-----

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:51:37 -0800
From: (Donald Ratsch)
Subject: Re: NASA WAV file
To:  (Brian Zeiler)

Brian, yes I have the full story on that. The details was
carried on the July 1989 issue of the MUFON Journal. Briefly I
recorded some of the radio broadcast via my audio scanner from
the space shuttle Discovery through WA3NAN, the club station of
the Goddard Amateur Radio Club at Greenbelt, Md, transmitting on
147.450 MHZ. It is a retransmission from the NASA Select
original. I heard what I thought was one of the male astronauts
saying, "Houston, Discovery, we still have the alien spacecraft
under observance". Well I was pretty excited and got in touch
with Walt Andrus of MUFON and Vince Dipietro (Mars Face Fame)
who is employed at Goddard Space Flight Center who I later
handed over the tape to have a voice print analysis performed to
compare the target voice to the astronauts' voices that were
aboard during that mission. The result of the analysis showed
that a few positive hits on Astronaut Bagian (the physician on
board) but not enough hits to say he was the one who said the
target words. So the results were inconclusive. Later a check
showed there was no target voice on the original NASA Select
audio.

"About a year after that, I was again monitoring the audio from
another NASA mission via my scanner and I heard that voice
again, saying something similar to the target voice a year
earlier.  However on this mission, all the astronauts were
different compared to the other one. This led me to conclude
that unfortunately, the target voice was a hoax probably from an
amateur radio operator. Jim Oberg emailed me some time ago and
asked me about that case and I told him what I just told you."

-----

JimO further asks, oh, did you really think the original story
was credible? Wow, were _you_ taken for a ride by a hoaxer.

 >or even the UFOs seen by Apollo 11 astronauts
 >Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin and Michael Collins on their way to the
 >Moon as described in their own books?

What UFOs? My assessment is the same as every other space expert
and astronaut who's talked about those reports, they were
watching the S-4B stage and SLA panels, just like on Apollo-12
when Conrad was joking about them (and he joked even more loudly
about 'UFO freaks' who misunderstood his comments and thought he
had been refering to alien visitors -- but Conrad had a rough
sense of humor).


Jim Oberg









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              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:24:35 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:26:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:41:09 -0600

 >Today I received a letter dated December 10, 2001, from Claire
 >D. Johnson, executive secretary to ex-astronaut Gene Cernan's
 >current business enterprise. I had faxed her several questions
 >for Cernan regarding the 1973 Los Angeles Times alleged UFO
 >quotations.

 >Regarding the interview where he supposedly said he believed
 >UFOs were alien visitors, "Captain Cernan said it's 'not true',
 >or has been misinterpreted." Did Nick Chriss's article
 >accurately reflect Captain Cernan's view: "No."

So why didn't the Captain write some kind of denial at the time
stating that the article didn't accurately reflect his views?

 >Did Cernan ever make the remark that he thought UFOs 'were
 >somebody else, some other civilization'" Wrote Johnson, "Captain
 >Cernan said he never said that about UFOs." Regarding Internet
 >posts that claim that Cernan believes UFOs are real, she wrote,
 >"Captain Cernan said, "not me (until I see one)".

Again, why didn't Cernan deny it at the time it was in public eye?

 >Johnson added this comment with Cernan's permission: "Captain
 >Cernan has been in space three times, been to the Moon twice,
 >and has been on or around the Moon about nine days. He should
 >have had ample time 'to meet' a UFO, but has not! The stories
 >are too incredible."

Kind of like a person saying I have traveled around the world
three times and that should more then give me ample time to have
met world leaders Since I didn't meet any, they don't exist...so
goes the logic trail.

 >Her letter ended, "I hope the above helps clarify Captain
 >Cernan's beliefs and position."

We now know his position today, just like he unloaded a position
back in the 70s and it took him 30 years to disavow the article.


Cheers,

Robert









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:36:18 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:30:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 >Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,

 >I was really just testing the water to see what the reaction
 >would be to a speculative theory which I have, and it seems that
 >my theory should be readily accepted by this forum.

 >I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
 >realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
 >hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
 >reach the same conclusion.

 >Here are two facts which I am sure everyone will agree with and
 >are really very obvious, but don't occur to people without some
 >prompting:

 >1. The colour of the Moon is remarkably similar to that of most
 >  varieties of cheese.

 >2. The Moon has a strikingly similar shape to many varieties of
 >  cheese.

 >These facts started me thinking that perhaps it really is
 >cheese?

 >"Aaah", I hear you say, "astronauts have landed on the Moon, and
 >they say it is made of rock!".

 >Nonsense! My response to that is that it is well documented that
 >the moon landing was faked in order for NASA to secure Federal
 >funding. This fact has even been broadcast on television! No
 >educated person believes that the Moon landings really took
 >place!

 >Take it from me, the cheese industry is the only organisation to
 >have set foot on the Moon.

<snip>

Wallace and a friend of mine's two year daughter totally agree
with you here. My friends daughter was tickled pink to learn the
age old belief of the moon being made of cheese wasn't dead.

"Do you believe the moon is made of cheese Uncle Chris?" She
asked me.

"No." I said. "It is made up of matter that is no so unlike
cheese though."

"Oh you are silly Uncle Chris, it is much more fun believing it
is made of cheese."

I guess it is at that.

If you do confront political leaders with your findings Joe,
Don't forget the crackers.

"Gormit! We've forgotten the crackers. We can't go to the moon
to get cheese without crackers!"

A Grand Day Out could help support the theory above as Wallace
and Gromit have been there, though the cheese was reported to be
a little on the dry side. Not unlike cheddar.


["Wallace and Gormit" are registered trade marks. No copy right
infringement has been intended.]









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:04:57 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:42:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 >Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,

Dear Joe, List, Errol,

Hey, no problem ... anytime, Joe.

 >I was really just testing the water to see what the reaction
 >would be to a speculative theory which I have, and it seems that
 >my theory should be readily accepted by this forum.

 >I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
 >realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
 >hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
 >reach the same conclusion.

<snip>

 >Yes, but speculation is the precursor to discovery. Mark my
 >words, it will all turn out to be as I have written, and my
 >investment of research time will be justified! I have devoted
 >eight years of my life towards researching and exposing this
 >scandal. Now is the time to confront our political leaders and
 >representatives with the proven facts!

On behalf of the Arctic Society, the Society for the Prevention
of Cruelty to Dimpbulbs, the Atrophied Brain Society (I am a
charter member... or... my member is charter. I've forgotten
which) and the ubiquitous, UFO's Are Not Real Cheese Society, I
wish to thank Doctor Lonnie McDonnegal... sorry, flashback, Joe
McGonagle, for his monograph on the subject of cheese.

However, Mr. McGonagle, you are patently incorrect. The
production of cheese in this worl, is largely taken up by the
Canal Street UfoolIllogical Society and Discount House of Fresh
Wine and Cheese. This 'moon' nonesense is merely a construct of
incorrect, remote viewing. You aimed for the moon but hit our
cheese plant, Number Three. As it turns out, we were waiting for
you there.

And remember, when it comes to fresh wine and fresher cheese,
you can't beet... beat... Canal Street. It's where the bacteria
come from.

Gesundt








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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:26:45 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:44:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:20:03 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:17:03 -0500

 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:32:59 +0000 (GMT)
 >>>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Thanks for the link. I'll see if I can obtain the
 >>book. I'm also debating whether or not to read Madam
 >>Blavatsky's works as well. It is so difficult to
 >>separate occult works from historical works when it
 >>comes to the writings of the Watchers.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Jeff,

 >I would suggest you did not start with Blavatsky's books unless
 >you really want to become completely bewildered and frustrated.

 >Snip

 >Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for. I can promise
 >you that ufology does indeed overlap with esoteric tradition,
 >but not always how you'd most like it to.

 >Chris Aubeck

Dear Jeff, Chris, List, Errol,

Ah, poor dears. You are reading the wrong material. May I
suggest that you start with "Gesundt's Treatise on the Making of
a Fool" for openers. Then read, "Gesundt's the Fool and so are
Yous!"

These spare the reader of all them big words, all Victorian
verbosity and spares the poor reader of having to have a
dictionary support the reading. I promise there are no words
more difficult than say, oh, "And - The - UFO - Nekked - " and
of course, all the 'good parts' are already pernted out by the
newest thing in publishing ... that would be sticky pad stuff,
in various colours... colors. Sorry.

For example, filthy is a brilliant scarlet. Dirty is merely a
dull red. Ribald... a slightly sticky yellow. And we apologize
for the sticky paper. We couldn't help it. When we were binding
the books, well, we sorta peeked. And, well... you know.

Use rubber cloves. Just in case.

Now, for the best advice of all. If you are hell bent on
actually learning something, may we suggest reading the
encyclopedia? Let us analyze that word, 'encyclopedia.'

"En" means to "enter."

"Cyclo" is a bastardization of the word, "psycho."

"Pedia" means ... as in file.

On second thought, that book is pretty dirty too. Just stick
with Gripple.

Gesundted and happy to be.










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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:46:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:04:09 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Your difficulties with perception and cognition hardly seem
 >relevant to finding a scientific basis for distinguishing
 >artificial from natural formations. Likewise for mystic vision
 >of the Ayatollah Khomeini and long-winded treatises on cheese.

Sorry, Lan, I don't understand.

Was it the length of my theory that troubles you?

It seems to me that I am using a similar basis to Mac and others
for the theory, they start by comparing the formation on the
surface of Mars to a human face, pointing out similarities, then
pointing out further percieved similarities to a (what is now
understood to be artificial) structure on Earth.

The basis of my theory is a comparison between the Moon and
cheese, and pointing out the similarities (colour and shape).

I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

Regards, Joe








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               Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:06:57 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:49:51 -0500
Subject: Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - McGonagle


 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:40:21 -0600
 >Subject: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >JPL's erroneous height estimate probably resulted in more than
 >just an inaccurate number: the 3D perspective image that
 >accompanied the NASA 'Science' article was apparently based on
 >this estimate. The depths of concavities like the two eye-like
 >features and heights of convex features like the 'Nose' ridge
 >were probably compressed by an amount similar to the 27% to 42%
 >compression of the overall height of the landform, producing the
 >flat and featureless result that JPL seems to prefer in its
 >'enhancements' of the Face.

 >The MOLA profiles are shown at:

 >http://www.VGL.org/webfiles/mars/face/mola/facemola.html

Hello,

Do you think JPL's errors are due to incompetence, or do you
think it is due to a deliberate attempt to misinform the public?

Also, do you have any links to the NASA article that you are
referring to?


Regards,

Joe









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   Dec > Dec 14

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:41:53 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:52:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:04:57 EST
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

<snip>

 >However, Mr. McGonagle, you are patently incorrect. The
 >production of cheese in this worl, is largely taken up by the
 >Canal Street UfoolIllogical Society and Discount House of Fresh
 >Wine and Cheese. This 'moon' nonesense is merely a construct of
 >incorrect, remote viewing. You aimed for the moon but hit our
 >cheese plant, Number Three. As it turns out, we were waiting for
 >you there.

 >And remember, when it comes to fresh wine and fresher cheese,
 >you can't beet... beat... Canal Street. It's where the bacteria
 >come from.


Thanks for the reply, Jim.

I think that you may have me confused with Joe McMoneagle
regarding the remote viewing - the only remote viewing that I do
is looking for the television remote control when the phone
starts ringing! (How does always slip down the back of the
sofa?). (Then I have to start searching for the cordless phone
acoustically, and that is usually buried in the sofa as well).

I am curious as to what you base your theory about cheese
production on, and why you think that my theory is nonsense?


Mahlzeit!

Cheers, Joe










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              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:50:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:24:35 EST
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >So why didn't the Captain write some kind of denial at the time
 >stating that the article didn't accurately reflect his views?

Now you are blaming Cernan for somebody else's potential error?
Most astronauts long ago despaired of being quoted correctly in
the UFO literature (even Gordon Cooper complained about this)
and stopped worrying about what was said about them. Borman's
experience (see below) was that explaining and complaining was
useless. Garry Henderson, the official widely quoted in UFO
literature in the 1970s, made the same remark (also quoted
below). I think that casting suspicion back on the character who
was the subject of the original quotation is not proper.

Stan reports he checked the transcript and asked Cernan
directly, back near the time of the publication. The comment I
got from Cernan directly in the mid-1980s (and which I did not
write down, so I can't use it as a quote or as evidence) was
that he felt he was misquoted and didn't want to touch the
subject again. I've promised to check the press conference video
and transcript and report the findings here, but the NASA PAO is
taking a long time to dig them out.

Here's some other useful quotes:

- - - - -


Note - The following is an excerpt from an article 'Flying the
Gusmobile' about the Gemini missions. Published on the site of
'Air and Space' magazine July 14:

http://www.airspacemag.com:80/ASM/Mag/Index/1998/AS/ftgm.html

<snip>

At almost twice the length of Gemini 5, Commander Frank Borman's
Gemini 7 mission may have been even more trying, but it grabbed
the attention of at least one Hollywood producer.

"Right after we got into orbit we were supposed to 'station
keep' or fly formation with the booster," Borman says. "We were
flying formation and taking photographs and infrared
measurements and I started calling it a 'bogey,' which is an old
fighter pilot term. Well, a lot of the UFO freaks on the ground
picked this up and said we had seen a UFO because we had
referred to our booster as a bogey.

"Just this past year I got a call from a producer at 'Unsolved
Mysteries' and they said, 'We read your account about your
seeing a UFO on Gemini 7 and would you come on the program?' I
told them: 'I'd love to come on your program because I'd love to
straighten that out.'

"I explained what it was I saw, and I said, 'I don't think there
were UFOs,' and the producer said, 'Well, I'm not sure we want
you

- - - - -

Garry Henderson Quotation on Secret Astronaut UFO Sightings.

Dr. Garry C. Henderson has often been quoted in books and
articles about astronaut sightings of UFOs. He is said to be a
"top NASA insider", from General Dynamics Corporation, who knows
"UFO secrets".

Many years ago, when I first encountered his attributed
assertions, I did what any responsible researcher should have
done -- I tracked him down to follow up on his allegations and
see if he could elaborate on them. In the UFO field, I
discovered, nobody else had thought it necessary to take such an
obvious step! The following is the text of a
reconstructed-from-notes transcript of our telephone
conversation in January 1978.

---   James Oberg,   September 1994

JO: Dr. Henderson, you've been widely quoted as saying that "all
of our astronauts have seen UFOs but have been ordered not to
discuss their sightings with anyone," and that "NASA has actual
photos of  these craft. taken at close range by still and movie
camera." Do you recall saying this, and do you believe it?

GH: I never said it and I don't believe it. That was a bad
misquotation that has haunted me over the years. For a while I
tried to think of what I could do to stop it but I gave up.

JO: Then the quotation attributed to you does not reflect your
actual opinions on the subject of UFOs?

GH: Not in the slightest.

JO: How do you suppose the false quotation got started?

GH: I have a good idea. I was visiting a UFO convention in
Canada in the late 1960s and was interviewed on a radio talk
show. The host was concentrating on leading questions, trying to
make me sound like I was saying something sensational. Later I
heard that he claimed that I had made the admission `off the
air', during a station break, but I just don't recall having
done so -- and he could only have gotten that impression through
misunderstanding me.

JO: The quotation has been reprinted now for many years. Has
anyone ever tried to track you down to verify the quotation and
ask more questions?

GH: Nobody. You are the first to take the trouble.

JO: Wouldn't you say that authors who rely on dubious material
in UFO pulp magazines, without making any effort to verify it,
are doing the public a great disservice? Are they honest?

GH: Well, the public is certainly being misinformed, but I don't
want to pass judgment on someone else's motives. I am surprised
that anyone believed that misquotation, though, considering the
kinds of publications it appeared in. And that's why I was never
particularly  bothered by its circulation. I felt that it was
too wild to be believed.

JO: Just to satisfy the paranoids, have you ever been under any
`pressure' to retract that statement or execute a `coverup'?

GH: Oh no! As I said, until you called, nobody had ever noticed
it. I certainly would not retract something if it were true. But
that quotation attributed to me is entirely false.








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                Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:34:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:15:12 -0500
Subject: Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked - Fleming


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: JPL's Mars Face Claims Debunked
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:06:57 -0000

 >Hello,

 >Do you think JPL's errors are due to incompetence, or do you
 >think it is due to a deliberate attempt to misinform the public?

 >Also, do you have any links to the NASA article that you are
 >referring to?


The link to the NASA article (an official government web site) is:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm










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   Dec > Dec 14

               Carl Sagan Center To Focus On Life In Universe

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:24:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:24:54 -0500
Subject: Carl Sagan Center To Focus On Life In Universe

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/sagan_seti_011213.html

Seeking Contact: Carl Sagan Center To Focus On Life In The
Universe

By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer
posted: 07:00 am ET
13 December 2001

WASHINGTON -- Cutting-edge studies to help define how crowded
the Universe might be with life are to be undertaken at new
research facilities, named after a pioneer in the field: Carl E.
Sagan.

As currently envisioned, the Carl Sagan Center for the Study of
Life in the Cosmos will consist of a trio of high-tech
laboratories, with the potential to add a fourth at a later
date. In addition, a public gallery exhibition area and 500-seat
auditorium are also part of the center.

The center is to be built on some seven acres of land in the
planned NASA Research Park at Moffett Field, California,
neighboring the space agency's Ames Research Center.

A legacy preserved and advanced

Last month, as one of his last official duties as NASA
Administrator, Daniel Goldin, took part in dedication ceremonies
for the $40 million center - a flagship facility among a host of
science and technology groups that are to coexist within a
proposed 213-acre NASA Research Park.

"Carl was an incredible visionary, and now his legacy can be
preserved and advanced by a 2lst century research and education
laboratory committed to enhancing our understanding of life in
the universe and furthering the cause of space exploration for
all time," Goldin said.

Astronomer, educator and author, Sagan was often viewed as the
world's greatest popularizer of science. His writings and
television appearances touched millions of people. Sagan's most
recognized work was the PBS series, Cosmos. The Emmy- and
Peabody-award-winning production became the most watched series
in public-television history, seen by over 500 million people in
60 countries. An accompanying book to Cosmos remained on The New
York Times bestseller list for 70 weeks and was the best-selling
science book ever published in English.

Sagan, who was the David Duncan Professor of Astronomy and Space
Sciences and director of the Laboratory for Planetary Studies at
Cornell University, died 5 years ago last month. He lost a
two-year battle with bone marrow disease at 62, dying of
pneumonia.

Modular approach

"I admire Dan Goldin for his tenacity in supporting research
related to life off Earth. The fact that he dedicated this
wonderful center in Carl Sagan's memory, as one of his last
official acts as administrator, clearly demonstrates how he
shared Carl's passion to learn if life is widespread in the
Cosmos," Thomas Pierson, Chief Executive Officer of the SETI
Institute in Mountain View, California, told SPACE.com.

After its doors open within two to three years, the center is to
engage in leading-edge, multi-disciplinary research in support
of NASA's mission to answer the question, 'are we alone in the
universe?', said Scott Hubbard, NASA Ames Deputy Director for
Research.

"Scientists will conduct both basic and applied work that will
further our understanding of life's origins, evolution and
future. Researchers will integrate new findings in
nanotechnology, biology and information technology to develop
new miniature tools for sample analysis and data understanding,"
Hubbard said.

The center's three initial laboratories are to be modular in
design, providing flexibility for change and amenable to
undertake varying and evolving research tracks.

Deep questions

Hubbard said that a genomics and microbiology laboratory could
be used to reveal the fundamental processes of living systems
drawn from a variety of different environments. Also, a new
biosensors facility will enable development of devices to study
the fingerprints of life, both here on Earth and on other
planets. From a nanotechnology laboratory, he predicted,
ultra-small devices that mimic or reproduce the processes in
living systems will emerge.

The Sagan Center is a step toward NASA's goal of melding
academia, industry and non-profits to foster world-class,
shared-use research.

"It is fitting that this 21st century laboratory be named for
the 20th century's most articulate and passionate advocate of
space exploration. The Sagan Center, the product of an
innovative public-private sector partnership, will attract and
promote collaborative research and development among its
partners in industry, academia and NASA," said Donald Fulop,
Vice President of Business Development, Lockheed Martin Space
Operations, Houston, during last month's dedication of the
center.

"No honor would have meant more to Carl than this," said Ann
Druyan, his wife and collaborator for 20 years. Sagan dreamed
"that we, as a civilization, would turn our genius to the deep
questions of life in the cosmos," she added.

-----

UFO UpDates thanks
The Anomalist for the lead
http://www.anomalist.com/








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:20:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:31:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.


Mac wasn't giving a theory; he was making an observation.

The Mars Face is not only similar to known artificial structures
on Earth but is dissimilar in significant ways from known
natural structures that have been claimed as examples similar to
the Face like, for instance, Middle Butte in Idaho. That
landform was cited in the same NASA 'science' article as the
bogus stuff about MOLA measurements. A JPL scientist claimed
that Middle Butte "reminded" him of the Mars Face, but no
photographs were provided for comparison so that readers could
really tell whether it remined them of the Mars Face, too. A
real skeptic would be skeptical of unsupported claims no matter
who makes them, even a NASA scientist. In this case, skepticism
was certainly justified.

I was skeptical enough to get a USGS orthophoto of Middle Butte.
It's posted at:

http://www.VGL.org/webfiles/mars/face/middlebutte/middlebutte.htm

There is no similarity to the Face, except both are
approximately the same size. Middle Butte is a volcanic
dome-like structure with a roughly circular symmetry common to
volcanic domes. It has none of the parallel edges and partial
mirror symmetry of the Mars Face (and of known artificial
structures like the Iranian tell).

The question of the possible artificiality of the Mars Face has
been the subject of considerable scientific work that has been
published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. That certainly
doesn't put the work beyond criticism. But cheap ridicule only
makes the ridiculer look ridiculous.










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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:09:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:34:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:57 -0600

 >if you were remotely believable (?), it would be perfect.
 >But I'd sooner trust OBL's opinion on Judaism than your opinion
 >on UFO's. I don't think that's just me.

I confess to taking an improper glee in provoking such
freak-outs from fanatics, and I apologize to exposing the rest
of this List - which handles many controversies in a gentlemanly
fashion - to this level of vituperation. I accept my share of
the blame for inciting it.

I'm pleased with the give-and-take re X-15 that has certainly
improved my _own_ understanding of the project and the specific
'UFO sighting' which sparked the discussions. I'll pass around
my draft description of the event and its place in UFO lore
shortly, for critiques both constructive and Lehmbergian.

Oh, rats, there I go again. It must be an uncontrollable
addiction. My manifold human failings are a source of repeated
disappointments to me.









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:35:51 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:41:53 -0000


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:04:57 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 ><snip>

 >>However, Mr. McGonagle, you are patently incorrect. The
 >>production of cheese in this worl, is largely taken up by the
 >>Canal Street UfoolIllogical Society and Discount House of Fresh
 >>Wine and Cheese. This 'moon' nonesense is merely a construct of
 >>incorrect, remote viewing. You aimed for the moon but hit our
 >>cheese plant, Number Three. As it turns out, we were waiting for
 >>you there.

 >>And remember, when it comes to fresh wine and fresher cheese,
 >>you can't beet... beat... Canal Street. It's where the bacteria
 >>come from.


 >Thanks for the reply, Jim.

 >I think that you may have me confused with Joe McMoneagle
 >regarding the remote viewing - the only remote viewing that I do
 >is looking for the television remote control when the phone
 >starts ringing! (How does always slip down the back of the
 >sofa?). (Then I have to start searching for the cordless phone
 >acoustically, and that is usually buried in the sofa as well).

 >I am curious as to what you base your theory about cheese
 >production on, and why you think that my theory is nonsense?


 >Mahlzeit!

 >Cheers, Joe

Just kidding, Joe. Also, I meant to write "Lonnie Donegen" who
left his chewing gum on the bedpost overnight. But got that
screwed up too.

(sigh)

As for my 'theory,' hell, it ain't no theory, I am the marketing
manager for Gesundt. I sell his cheese and wine (freshly made of
course). This is fact. When Lonnie Donegan ... Donagle,
whatever, made his chewing gum song, Gesundt was formulating his
fresh wine and fresher cheese products. In his cheese, there is
real cheese. But it doesn't come from milk. It's made to taste
wonderful only when in the grip of the Grip. Otherwise, it's
rather icky. Even to look at. Let alone smell.

However there is the odor reminiscent of the Streets of Canal. A
rather sour effluvium similar to the sour effluvium of the men
who live there. Only more nutritious.


Dr. Morty









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                Re: ormation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:54:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:39:10 -0500
Subject: Re: ormation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 >Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,


 >I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
 >realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
 >hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
 >reach the same conclusion.

<snip>

 >"So what if the Moon is made of cheese? I don't care, it's not
 >important!"

 >The more I dig, the more convinced I am that a revelation will
 >be made in the near future. If we continue to consume cheese at
 >the current rate, in fifty years time the effect on the Moon
 >will be obvious, together with the effects on our ecosystem, and
 >an alternative source of cheese will have to be found. Cheese
 >will be the driving force behind space exploration, so it is of
 >vital importance to humanity. Because of the importance of this
 >matter, I would like everyone to contact their MP/Senator and
 >bring it to their attention.

 >"This is wild speculation!"

 >Yes, but speculation is the precursor to discovery. Mark my
 >words, it will all turn out to be as I have written, and my
 >investment of research time will be justified! I have devoted
 >eight years of my life towards researching and exposing this
 >scandal. Now is the time to confront our political leaders and
 >representatives with the proven facts!


Your proof that the moon is made of cheese is very convincing...
in fact, its as solid as a swiss cheese.. (swiss cheese is one
of the artificial cheeses that could not be made on the moon
because it is full of holes caused by gasses that don't exist on
the moon)









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                Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:54:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:42:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist? -


 >From: Jeff Behnke <jeff@paranormalnews.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Giordano Bruno: 16th Century Ufologist?
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:31:09 -0500

<snip>

 >I have already sacrificed my own faith in pursuit of the truth.
 >What will be next? I do not know.

I suspect that what has happened is that you have replaced your original
faith with a new one:  a faith that continued effort on your part will be
sufficient to find the truth.....

Or.....

more basic than that, even, is the faith that the effort is
worth the effort... in some way.

The answer is ":out there" we are told... or a Man many years
ago said the answer is "in here."

Could it be that "out there" is "in here?"

Just remember that 99.9999% of everything is vacuum... that
includes the space between the ears. (Vacuum is the answer...
hmmmmmmmm????) I wonder what Bruno would have said....









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                      Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:55:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:44:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere - Maccabee


 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:47:11 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oregon Red Sphere

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:16:33 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Oregon Red Sphere
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>>

<snip>

 >>This could be a TRUFO (TRue UFO) of a non-intelligent
 >>type ... a previously unknown/unrecognized natural
 >>phenomenon. (Note: TRUFOs that give the impression of
 >>intelligence... such as by taking avoidance maneuvers
 >>or being (apparently) craft of some sort may also be
 >>"natural phenomena," but on a level of "natural" that
 >is not yet accepted by science/scientists as real.)

 >If this is something like ball-lightning, its pretty interesting
 >just for the color and mobility. Maybe there is some subtle clue
 >to BL hidden here.

 >If its an intelligently directed "object", its near transparency
 >suggests (to me) some high degree of camouflage which would be
 >even more interesting.

 >What I cannot see is a misperception of something entirely
 >mundane, given we take the man at his word.


Yes, whatever this was, it was something truly unusual, assuming
Ron is telling the truth.

Note, by the way (I didn't point this out in my report on the
sighting) that the red light must have ben quite bright to make
a good exposure in daylight. If seen at night this would have
appeared as a very bright red or red/orange light.










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                 Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:01:14 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:17:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:09:03 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:57 -0600

 >>if you were remotely believable (?), it would be perfect.
 >>But I'd sooner trust OBL's opinion on Judaism than your opinion
 >>on UFO's. I don't think that's just me.

 >I confess to taking an improper glee in provoking such
 >freak-outs from fanatics, and I apologize to exposing the rest
 >of this List - which handles many controversies in a gentlemanly
 >fashion - to this level of vituperation. I accept my share of
 >the blame for inciting it.

Gawd Dammit, Oberg... just who the hell are calling 'fanatics?'
You barged in here like Schermer possessed, debunking, but doing
so in such a deceitful (not to mention ignorant) manner as to
upset, insult and generally make fools out of the members of
this list, whose sole purpose is to research, discuss and
investigate what is a most difficult and unknown phenomena, and
to boot, insult the integrity and knowledge base of those who
can run rings around you on a technical basis.

You, sir (note the lower case) are anathema here. And I
personally take your remarks as an insult. Apologize... and I
mean that! If not, I recommend that this List consider to either
ignore you, or continue to make mincemeat out of your ignorance.

I much prefer the latter, although I would appreciate the former.

 >I'm pleased with the give-and-take re X-15 that has certainly
 >improved my _own_ understanding of the project and the specific
 >'UFO sighting' which sparked the discussions. I'll pass around
 >my draft description of the event and its place in UFO lore
 >shortly, for critiques both constructive and Lehmbergian.

 >Oh, rats, there I go again. It must be an uncontrollable
 >addiction. My manifold human failings are a source of repeated
 >disappointments to me.

Yeah, and the check is in the male!


Jim Mortellaro, Ph.D. --- and this ain't no satire buddy








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   Dec > Dec 14

                  Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:21:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:09:03 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:57 -0600

 >>if you were remotely believable (?), it would be perfect.
 >>But I'd sooner trust OBL's opinion on Judaism than your opinion
 >>on UFO's. I don't think that's just me.

 >I confess to taking an improper glee in provoking such
 >freak-outs from fanatics, and I apologize to exposing the rest
 >of this List - which handles many controversies in a gentlemanly
 >fashion - to this level of vituperation. I accept my share of
 >the blame for inciting it.

Sir! Not your share! The blame. Nothing less! The fanatic you
malign is a function of the jealous and indifferent system you
front for.

 >I'm pleased with the give-and-take re X-15 that has certainly
 >improved my _own_ understanding of the project and the specific
 >'UFO sighting' which sparked the discussions. I'll pass around
 >my draft description of the event and its place in UFO lore
 >shortly, for critiques both constructive and Lehmbergian.

Hey Mr. Oberg... you're the one with special responsibility
here! Don't try to distract us with an assumed cloak of the
reasonably collegiate...

You're the one that does this for a living; you're the one with
access to a world stage that is best served by the efforts of
selected others; you're the one that wants to invalidate 50
years of ufological research (stonewalled, belittled, and
discounted every step of the way by the unelected) to paint it
as the confused realm of the misinformed, the mentally ill, and
the misdirecting...

Lastly, I'll just assume that _you_ assumed no need to invite a
deconstructive critique, and that you consider "Lehmbergian" as
just another flavor of the aggregate constructive. Otherwise,
I'll have your literary liver with the obligatory wine and fava
beans... and we'll parse, even more judiciously, _your_
aggregate constructiveness.

 >Oh, rats, there I go again. It must be an uncontrollable
 >addiction. My manifold human failings are a source of repeated
 >disappointments to me.

_That_ was a statement made by one that doesn't really believe
their human failings are all that manifold... but, it'd be
different if you had a change of ufological heart and the man
took your megaphone away... you'd know despair then.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 14

                          Secrecy News -- 12/14/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:04:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:28:07 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/14/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 14, 2001


**WHITE HOUSE ASSERTS EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE
**BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY POLICY
**BELLOWS REPORT ON WEN HO LEE
**INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION APPROVED
**POSSE COMITATUS REVISITED


WHITE HOUSE ASSERTS EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE

The Bush Administration formally invoked executive privilege for
the first time yesterday to rebuff a congressional request for
certain Justice Department records.

The action met with anger from congressional leaders, who said
it impeded their ability to conduct oversight.

"This is not a monarchy," fumed Rep. Dan Burton, chair of the
House Government Reform Committee, at a hearing yesterday.  In
September, Burton had subpoenaed the records, which concern the
handling of several mafia prosecutions in the 1960s as well as
campaign finance violations in the Clinton Administration.

"The Bush Administration appears to believe it is entitled to
operate outside the public eye and outside the view of its
elected representatives in Congress," said Rep. Henry Waxman,
the ranking minority member on the Committee.

The President's December 12 memorandum to the Attorney General
directing him to withhold the requested records from Congress is
available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/121201_execpriv.html

Related materials from the House Government Reform Committee may
be found here:

http://www.house.gov/reform/newindex/oversight_doj.htm
and
http://www.house.gov/reform/min/inves_admin/index.htm


BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY POLICY

The new assertion of executive privilege is merely the latest
step in an ongoing expansion of executive authority by the Bush
Administration that has so far met with minimal resistance.

Some of this secrecy can be understood as a consequence of the
military action in Afghanistan and related requirements for
operational security. But much of it is gratuitous and unrelated
to any threat.  New restrictions on release of unclassified
Reagan-era presidential documents, for example, appear to
violate the letter of the law and have little basis beyond a
predilection for official secrecy.

A compilation of Bush Administration documents and official
statements on secrecy policy is available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html


BELLOWS REPORT ON WEN HO LEE

The Justice Department this week released the long-promised
declassified version of the four volume, 800 page "Final Report
of the Attorney General's Review Team on the Handling of the Los
Alamos National Laboratory Investigation."

The May 2000 opus, also known as the "Bellows Report" after its
lead author, reviews the ill-fated investigation into suspected
espionage by former Los Alamos scientist Wen Ho Lee.

The report is a case study in the byzantine bureaucratic
politics of counterintelligence.  Its critique of the Justice
Department's handling of requests for surveillance under the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, among other things,
continues to resonate today.

But almost everything about the Los Alamos investigation went as
wrong as it could go.

"This was an investigation that from its first moments, indeed
from its very first moments, went awry and never, in any real
sense, recovered its equilibrium," the Report states.

Three of the twenty-two chapters of the heavily redacted Report,
including the newly released Executive Summary in Chapter 1, may
be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/bellows/index.html

Wen Ho Lee's memoir "My Country Versus Me" (with Helen Zia) has
now passed through government classification review and will be
published next month.

Also due next month is "A Convenient Spy: Wen Ho Lee and the
Politics of Nuclear Espionage" by Dan Stober and Ian Hoffman,
who produced much of the best reporting on this riveting case
for the San Jose Mercury News (Stober) and the Albuquerque
Journal (Hoffman).


INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION APPROVED

The House of Representatives approved the conference report on
the 2002 intelligence authorization act on December 12.

Intelligence Committee chairman Rep. Porter Goss found little
reason for any self-criticism regarding the intelligence
community's failure to provide effective warning against the
terrorist attacks of September 11.

After all, Goss noted, the intelligence committees had
recognized the threat from terrorism in several of their past
authorization reports. See his comments on the House floor here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/h121201.html

This appears to be the first year in over a decade in which a
classified intelligence budget total has gone unchallenged by
any attempt in Congress to legislate declassification.  The last
such attempt, an amendment offered by Rep. Tim Roemer, was voted
down in the House on May 23, 2000.


POSSE COMITATUS REVISITED

The emerging role of the military in "homeland security" is a
delicate matter because it impinges on the traditional
separation between civilian and military affairs that is a
hallmark of American governance.

That separation is enshrined, for example, in the 1878 Posse
Comitatus Act, which generally prohibits the use of military
forces in civilian law enforcement.

Now, in the 2002 Defense Authorization Act, Congress has
directed the Secretary of Defense to "conduct a study on the
appropriate role of the Department of Defense with respect to
homeland security":

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/homesec.html

In an October 12 letter, Senator John Warner invited the
Pentagon to propose modifications to the Posse Comitatus Act.
"Limited use [of military forces] beyond that permitted by
existing law might strengthen the nation's ability both to
protect against and to respond to events of the sort which we
have recently undergone," wrote Warner.

The meaning and implications of the Posse Comitatus Act were
examined with rigor and clarity in a 1997 law review article by
Matthew Carlton Hammond in the Washington University Law
Quarterly, available here:

http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 05:26:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:31:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:20:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >Mac wasn't giving a theory; he was making an observation.

 >The Mars Face is not only similar to known artificial structures
 >on Earth but is dissimilar in significant ways from known
 >natural structures that have been claimed as examples similar to
 >the Face like, for instance, Middle Butte in Idaho. That
 >landform was cited in the same NASA 'science' article as the
 >bogus stuff about MOLA measurements. A JPL scientist claimed
 >that Middle Butte "reminded" him of the Mars Face, but no
 >photographs were provided for comparison so that readers could
 >really tell whether it remined them of the Mars Face, too. A
 >real skeptic would be skeptical of unsupported claims no matter
 >who makes them, even a NASA scientist. In this case, skepticism
 >was certainly justified.

 >I was skeptical enough to get a USGS orthophoto of Middle Butte.
 >It's posted at:

 >http://www.VGL.org/webfiles/mars/face/middlebutte/middlebutte.htm

 >There is no similarity to the Face, except both are
 >approximately the same size. Middle Butte is a volcanic
 >dome-like structure with a roughly circular symmetry common to
 >volcanic domes. It has none of the parallel edges and partial
 >mirror symmetry of the Mars Face (and of known artificial
 >structures like the Iranian tell).

 >The question of the possible artificiality of the Mars Face has
 >been the subject of considerable scientific work that has been
 >published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. That certainly
 >doesn't put the work beyond criticism. But cheap ridicule only
 >makes the ridiculer look ridiculous.


Hello Lan:

I'm sure there are many skeptical articles in the mainstream
scientific press about the Cydonia 'Face On Mars'. I would guess
its used as a classic case for psychology studies among other
things.

Do you know of any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals
that propose this feature is artificial? If so, are any of them
online where we can read them easily?


Thanks

- Larry










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                       STS-75, UFO Magazine UK & JimO

From: James Oberg' <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:12:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:43:58 -0500
Subject: STS-75, UFO Magazine UK & JimO


JimO notes: The following newsletter apparently was sent out
recently from UK's UFO Magazine (www.ufomag.co.uk), where they
have another 'Secret NASA Transmissions' tape for sale (they've
admitted the transmissions aren't really secret, they're just
labeled that way to increase sales). My own comments are
inserted.

- START -

This electronic newsletter is produced monthly to coincide with
the impending publication of UFO Magazine, the world's leading
UFO newsstand publication. It serves to give advance notice of
forthcoming feature articles and includes news and comment at
the end by UFO Magazine's editor, Graham W. Birdsall.

More often than not, this newsletter is prepared on the 17th of
each month - Russel Callaghan

-  -

The January 2002 issue of UFO Magazine will arrive on UK
newsstands on Thursday, 20 December, and as Volume 21 No 2
across North America around 28 January.

<snip>

COMMENTARY

By Graham W. Birdsall

<snip>

* As I mentioned earlier, criticism comes with the territory,
but a noisy minority of people have resurfaced of late to resume
taking swipes at us over The Secret NASA Transmissions: 'The
Smoking Gun' and our more recent follow up, Secret NASA
Transmissions 2, which contains an in-depth interview with
Martyn Stubbs, the man responsible for acquiring some 2500 hours
of NASA footage recorded via their space shuttle downlink.

[JimO: Martyn did not acquire the video from the shuttle
downlink, but from the rebroadcast over the 'NASA TV' public
channel on a commercial communications satellite.]

Rarely have I seen so much ill-informed nonsense espoused by
individuals whose spare time hobby must be bee-keeping.
Especially in light of the fact that most of them have yet to
view and take on board the significance of what Martyn has to
say in Secret NASA Transmissions 2 !

[JimO: Keep the phrase "ill-informed nonsense" in mind as you see
the drivel that Birdsell puts forward in following paragraphs.]

I note that NASA 'mission specialist', James Oberg, has emerged to have
another 'pop' (again).

[JimO: I've never called myself a 'Mission specialist' for NASA
or anyone else.]

The same James Oberg who was proven wrong about comments
attributed to Guido Nigro, Director of the SETI Radio Telescope
at Golden Grove Observatory;

[JimO: Not so, Nigro emailed me to explain he was an amateur
astronomy enthusiast who was trying to organize a hobby group
that didn't even have an observatory, so the official title was
bogus.]

....who was proven wrong in claiming that Professor Weinberg of
Vancouver's Simon Fraser University had never met with Martyn
Stubbs;

[JimO: I was merely quoting Dr. Weinburg, who told me he's never
met with Stubbs, and whom I assumed was the authority in
specifying whom he had met, and hadn't met.']

....and who was again proven wrong in claiming that no NASA
astronaut had ever said that objects seen by John Glenn were
'living critters' [Scott Carpenter made the remarks - on film].
And so it goes on.

[JimO: No, Carpenter didn't, and the video file cited by UFOMag
clearly shows he did not, when viewed by rational people.]

Yes, James was spot on in claiming that people on the ground
below had seen, filmed and photographed an orbiting tethered
satellite in space. His memory served him well on that count,
but sadly, the fact that this was from another tethered
satellite mission, which took place prior to mission STS-75
seems to have escaped him.

[JimO: The people I named were observing precisely the STS-75
mission, and I was one of them, so this statement is totally
delusional.]

As too is the [published] evidence that software on the stranded
tethered satellite [STS-75] was found to have been re-programmed
after NASA technicians had later re-established contact with it.
That news was never publicised through the American media, but
there was no such restriction to it being carried in Canada.

[JimO: News of the resetting of data bits on the satellite was
all over the US media, as was the reasonable explanation that
the 'lightning bolt' which caused the tether to part had zapped
the circuit (no 'reprogramming' occurred).]

To be fair, James Oberg will find some empathy with the
revelation that life aboard the space shuttle (and Mir) is not
entirely a bed of roses (as NASA's PR people would have us
believe).

[JimO: This is hardly a revelation to anybody reading the space
news media over the past decades.]

He will doubtless be intrigued, therefore, to learn that
fisticuffs and heated arguments among shuttle astronauts were
common, but astonished to discover that Professor Weinberg and
Bob Sutherland were recruited to tackle the problem!

[JimO: Fisticuffs? I'd be astonished to 'learn' of this, but that
would rerquire some qualified expert to teach me.]

Oh, and the astronauts on board the International Space Station
are not entirely happy with their surroundings also - especially
when unidentified visitors come knocking on the outside of their
spacecraft! James should recall the time period when this took
place, for he was drafted by Canadian TV to comment on the first
spacewalk by a Canadian astronaut.

[JimO: I have no idea what Birdsall is raving about.]

If he can't remember, Martyn does mention the fact, along with
how viewers were introduced to James, who was yet again given
the title, 'NASA Mission Specialist' - but who failed to correct
it.

[JimO: I have a tape of this segment and can find no such
reference.]

James might also recall how 'live' transmissions of the
spacewalk failed to materialise, but in their place came
still-frame images.

[JimO: Transmissions from the shuttle's Ku-band antenna are often
blocked by station structure or by the shuttle being turned away
from the TDRS relay satellites, especially when docked to the
space station, so live communication is via S-band at a lower
data rate, where video images come down more slowly. No engineer
or other expert familiar with space operations is at all puzzled
by this.]

Due to the fact that no windows are built into the ISS, the
astronauts on board had to rely on TV monitors to see what might
be going on outside. Rather odd, don't you think?

[JimO: The ISS does have windows, and it's not at all odd that
Birdsall doesn 't know it, but still makes up non-facts for his
readers.]

That aside, I really don't believe that James or anyone else can
ignore what Professor Louis Frank had to say about the anomalous
'streaks' seen in the footage and which has come to be known as
'Space Phenomena Two'. We never raised the issue of CCD cameras,
and neither did James for that matter. He simply followed an
argument put forward by the head of an Australian planetarium
that the 'streaks' were caused by an effect from using CCD
cameras.

[JimO: Nope, never did - since the STS PLB cameras are not CCDs,
they are old-fashioned vidicon tube units with known
susceptibility to cosmic ray hits, especially over the South
Atlantic Anomaly.]

The Belgium-based company, Lexx Systems, buried that argument,
but it was irrelevant anyhow because some of the 'streaks' were
also captured by non-CCD cameras!

[JimO: The streaks were ONLY captured in non-CCD cameras.]

So, let us look at Professor Louis Frank's CV. He is a recipient
of the National Space Act Award. He worked on instrumentation
for the Galileo spacecraft mission to Jupiter. He designed
instrumentation to detect space-plasma (Professor Louis Frank is
acknowledged to the world's leading authority in the field of
space-based plasma) for the Japanese GOKL spacecraft. And he
worked on camera instrumentation to detect visible wavelengths
for the Polar spacecraft.

[JimO: Dr. Frank believes his instruments are recording a massive
influx of small icebergs from space. It is an interpretation
which few people share, but he is arguing based on scientific
research so the issue is open.]

Having looked at the footage along with his esteemed scientific
colleagues, Professor Franks said: 'I find the contents of your
video fascinating. There are several objects which may be small
comets ['Space Phenomena Two']. He continued: 'Several of us
have examined the video many times. Other phenomena recorded in
your video are not easily explained.'

[JimO: If Dr. Frank relied on technical descriptions provided by
Birdsall, no wonder he would be mystified and confused.]

So how do these remarks square with those who claim otherwise,
and yet who don't come remotely close to matching Professor
Franks' scientific credentials? It seems a fair question to put,
but since when has fairness mattered to sceptics and debunkers
who have their own fixed mindset and pre-fixed agenda?

[JimO: Since when has reality mattered to UFO salesmen whose
income depends on the gullibility of their target audience?]

'Astronauts coming to blows on the space shuttle? Pah! What
rubbish!' Well, it's true actually...

[JimO: There's still this old-fashioned concept called
'evidence', that remains unsatisifed.]

'The Tethered satellite is actually a space-based weapon? Pah!
More rubbish! ' Well, we have the film which proves conclusively
that it certainly wasn't designed to do the things that NASA
claim...

[JimO: I've never heard anybody suggest that, but I wouldn't put
it past some UFOMag reader to imagine it might be true.]

If you want the facts, if you want the names, if you want to see
and hear the evidence for yourselves, then we have delivered the
means by which you can do so. Nothing more, nothing less. Happy
viewing!

[JimO: Happy dreams!]

Thanks for your continuing and brilliant support! Best regards,
Graham W. Birdsall (Editor), UFO Magazine [UK]


Appendix: An example of the disputes of 'fact' between ufomag
and oberg, regarding statements attributed to Scott Carpenter:


Misrepresentation of Astronaut Carpenter Quotation

ITEM: Mistreatment of Carpenter words and opinions regarding
John Glenn's "fireflies"

1. Narrator (~6 minutes into tape) refers to "curious anomalous
objects in orbit around earth", continues: "John Glenn likened
them to fireflies, and for a time, NASA actually believed they
had stumbled across living critters, according to one of its
retired astronauts, Scott Carpenter."

2. Stubbs on same tape at 44:30: "We have an astronaut making
the comment, on the 25th anniversary of the moon flight. He
says, it's hard to believe, but he says it's a FACT that we
thought that John's fireflies -- again, Glenn's fireflies --
were living critters. Now at no time -- I've read everything --
at no time have I ever heard that before, that NASA concluded
originally that the fireflies were alive."

3. Magazine article, March-April 2000, p. 8, account of Stubbs's
comments: "And we have an astronaut making a comment on the 25th
anniversary of the Moon flight where he says, 'It's hard to
believe, but it's a fact, that we thought that John's fireflies
were living critters'." [[JimO: Note quotation marks]

4. Oberg's original note (March 20): refers to 'preposterous'
allegation that astronaut Scott Carpenter 'admitted' that NASA
for a long time thought that the 'fireflies' that Glenn reported
were 'living things'. I called it "a silly idea -- that
Carpenter would say such a thing", and asked for documentation
outside of somebody's vivid imagination.

5. Reply from Callaghan, March 21: we will "respond with the
video documentation that is absolutely proof positive that what
we claimed was said is the truth, and nothing but the truth."

6. Carpenter's actual quotation, as subsequently posted at
ufomag website: "It's hard to realize this now, there were so
many unknowns in the early days, and this is a fact of the
matter, we were really not sure, after John flew, whether or not
there were critters, living critters up there somewhere."

7. Oberg responded that "the tape segment allegedly proving this
is pitifully ambiguous, doesn't even mention the fireflies, so I
suggest it was misinterpreted."

8. UFOMAG's reply: "[Oberg] challenged that we couldn't produce
any evidence to support our quotation of Scott Carpenter. We
did, and [Oberg] conceded the fact. Suggest [he] put that one to
bed."

9. Not hardly! To repeat, Carpenter's posted quote in paragraph
3 (note that the transcript is not posted on the site, just the
WAV file for playing, which is a lot harder for most visitors)
does not mention 'fireflies' at all, and states NOT that people
'thought', 'believed', or 'concluded' anything, but that they
were not sure one way or the other about life in space
somewhere. The alleged quotation (paragraph 3) as printed in the
magazine inside quotation marks is clearly fraudulent and
UFOMAG's stubborn misrepresentation of it is indefensible on
rational grounds.

10. As for the big picture, aside from any genuine perplexity
about the phenomenon at the time it occurred, NASA very quickly
realized that the dots were ice particles coming from the
spacecraft's water spray boiler, which discarded waste heat from
the avionics (the space shuttle has a similar unit, called a
'Flash Evaporator', mounted at the base of the tail). Carpenter
himself confirmed this a few months later when on his flight he
was able to create swarms of 'fireflies' by banging on the side
of his capsule, where the water spray boiler was located. The
observed motion of the particles, falling below and pulling
ahead of the spacecraft, was exactly what is expected from
high-drag low-mass ice crystals. Today there is absolutely no
basis in reality to honestly portray the phenomenon as in any
way mysterious.











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   Dec > Dec 15

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:15:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

<snip>

 >The basis of my theory is a comparison between the Moon and
 >cheese, and pointing out the similarities (colour and shape).
 >I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

Poeple have been to the Moon. So have robots. Likewise, people
have been to the features in question in Iran and found them to
be artificial. For your Cheese Theory rhetoric to have any
argumentative validity, then my contention that the Mars face
and the formation in Iran are similar would have to be based off
of a conspiracy theory of some kind. I've made no such
suggestions.

Your cheese spiel is another in an endless parade of examples
equating anything remotely smacking of intelligence on Mars with
'conspiracy theories', regardless of the fact that there is no
connection at all.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
"But last night the plans for a future war were
all I saw on Channel Four." --The Smiths
      Visit http://mactonnies.com









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:59:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:17:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 05:26:57 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >Hello Lan:

 >I'm sure there are many skeptical articles in the mainstream
 >scientific press about the Cydonia 'Face On Mars'. I would guess
 >its used as a classic case for psychology studies among other
 >things.

Actually, there are none that I'm aware of. I know  you can find
such stuff in the 'popular' media, though.


 >Do you know of any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals
 >that propose this feature is artificial? If so, are any of them
 >online where we can read them easily?

Here are the ones I know about concerning Cydonia. There are one
or two others not on this list:


Carlotto, Mark J., Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian
Surface Features. Applied Optics, Vol. 27, No. 10 (1988).

Carlotto, M. J. (1997) "Evidence in support of the hypothesis
that certain object on Mars are artificial in origin". Journal
of Scientific Exploration,  11.2

Crater, H.W., and McDaniel, S. V., (1999) "Mound configurations
on the Martian Cydonian Plain" Journal of Scientific
Exploration, 13,3.

Carlotto, M., Crater, H., Erjavec, J., McDaniel, S.V.,
(1999)"Response to Geomorphology of Selected Massifs on the
Plains of Cydonia, Mars by David Pieri". Journal of Scientific
Exploration, 13,3

Carlotto, Mark J. and Stein, M. C., ?A Method for Searching for
Artificial Objects on Planetary Surfaces.? Journal of the
British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).

DiPietro, V., Molenaar, G., & Brandenburg, J., The Cydonia
Hypothesis.. Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 5, No. 1,
pages 1-25 (1991).

O'Leary, B., "Analysis of Images of the Face on Mars and
Possible Intelligent Origin." Journal of the British
Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).








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   Dec > Dec 15

             Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:06:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:19:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:50:32 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:24:35 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>So why didn't the Captain write some kind of denial at the time
 >>stating that the article didn't accurately reflect his views?

 >Now you are blaming Cernan for somebody else's potential error?

Hold your horses Jimbo. What "potential" error? The initial
quote of Cernan was published by a newspaper reporter who was
not, apparently, a 'UFO buff'.

Cernan is on record as saying he thought UFOs may be ET craft,
or words to that effect. Lots of people deny saying things they
really said or claim their words were taken out of context. You
now say that Cernan was misquoted by a major newspaper. The
burden of proof is on you to prove it.









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                   Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:14:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:21:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Fleming


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:01:14 EST
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >You, sir (note the lower case) are anathema here. And I
 >personally take your remarks as an insult. Apologize... and I
 >mean that!

But didn't you know, Jim? Being a pseudo-skeptic means never
having to say you're sorry!









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:21:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:22:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:54:58 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 >>Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,

 >>I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
 >>realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
 >>hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
 >>reach the same conclusion.

 ><snip>

 >>"So what if the Moon is made of cheese? I don't care, it's not
 >>important!"

 >>The more I dig, the more convinced I am that a revelation will
 >>be made in the near future. If we continue to consume cheese at
 >>the current rate, in fifty years time the effect on the Moon
 >>will be obvious, together with the effects on our ecosystem, and
 >>an alternative source of cheese will have to be found. Cheese
 >>will be the driving force behind space exploration, so it is of
 >>vital importance to humanity. Because of the importance of this
 >>matter, I would like everyone to contact their MP/Senator and
 >>bring it to their attention.

 >>"This is wild speculation!"

 >>Yes, but speculation is the precursor to discovery. Mark my
 >>words, it will all turn out to be as I have written, and my
 >>investment of research time will be justified! I have devoted
 >>eight years of my life towards researching and exposing this
 >>scandal. Now is the time to confront our political leaders and
 >>representatives with the proven facts!

 >Your proof that the moon is made of cheese is very convincing...
 >in fact, its as solid as a swiss cheese.. (swiss cheese is one
 >of the artificial cheeses that could not be made on the moon
 >because it is full of holes caused by gasses that don't exist on
 >the moon)

The maximum temperature on the sunlit side of the moon is 110
degrees centigrade. If the moon were made out of cheese, it
would have to be in what scientists refer to as the 'fondue'
state of matter. Next theory, please.










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   Dec > Dec 15

                         Brazilian TV Crew Tapes UFO

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 02:29:17 -0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:26:47 -0500
Subject: Brazilian TV Crew Tapes UFO


Hello friends,

A UFO was taped by a TV crew on a interstate road that links
Bras=EDlia (Brazil=B4s capital)to the city of Samambaia. The light
made evolutions in the sky for some time. The TV crew called to
the CINDACT (Brazilian Air Force Radar Station), but were told
that nothing unusual was seen. The event took place at 21:00.

I went to the TV studio to see the tape. The light was
yellow-reddish and small. In a part of the tape, an airplane
passed over the light, but as was night, we had no references.
The moviments were really weird and did not looked like an
airplane, ballon or something know.

Next week we will interview the witnesses and see the place.

We will keep you informed.

Regards.


Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-Presidente da Entidade Brasileira de Estudos
Extraterrestres(Bras=EDlia/Brasil)
(EBE-ET VICE PRESIDENT)









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:00:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:30:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:20:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >Mac wasn't giving a theory; he was making an observation.

<snip>

I think that I am perhaps being unreasonable here, and I
genuinely apologise for that.

I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a (in my opinion,
remote) possibility that the the structure on Mars is
artificial.

I also accept that Mac has invested serious effort in trying to
demonstrate this possibility.

Where I draw the line is when assumptions are made and
conclusions drawn (or actually inferrred implicitly rather than
explicitly) which are based purely on observational,
speculative, or subjective data.

This type of speculation does no credit to Mac (or indeed to
JPL), and only serves to detract from the perfectly valid work
(including speculative work). I cannot see the similarities that
Mac sees between the Mars formation and the Iranian formation.
There is dimensional information about the Mars formation, but
none that I have yet seen about the Iranian formation.

On the same theme, the JPL article at:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm

describing a route to the summit of the feature without accurate
(in terms of resolution) vertical scale information is absurd.

I am quite prepared to accept errors based on misunderstanding
of the technology involved in the case of amateurs, but it does
seem bizzare to me that JPL should speculate based on incomplete
information, eg to go so far as to describe a route from the
base of the feature to its summit without reasonably accurate
elevation data.

I don't want to be seen as an apologist for JPL, but the only
logical reasons as I see it for their position on this is as
follows:

1. They have a limited budget.

2. Because of [1], they need to apply resources to maximise
return (in terms of understanding of Martian geology) on every
mission.

3. JPL (like myself) regard the structure as most probably a
natural abheration, not typical of Martian geology, and
therefore not likely to improve our knowledge in this field.

4. JPL have encountered extreme pressure to focus on the feature
for future missions, partly through the efforts of Mac and
people with a similar point of view, in conflict with their
objectives.

5. Mac uses highly speculative and/or loosely worded statements
intended to be used as justifications for further resource
allocation to this feature.

6. JPL decided to respond in kind with highly speculative,
and/or loosely worded statements.

If we take most of the speculation out of it, what are we left
with?

1. A rock formation that probably resembles a human face is
present on Mars.

2. It is unknown whether the formation is natural or artificial.

3. The probability is that the formation is natural, based on
the fact that naturally occuring face-like formations on a
smaller scale are known to exist.

4, (To my knowledge) there are no artificial structures of
similar scale representing a human face.

Points 1 and 2 above are beyond question. Point 3 can be
regarded as speculative, but it has a basis in statistics and
experiential data. Point 4 is purely subjective, but I would
challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

If we go a step further and take all of the
speculation/subjectivity out, we are left with only points 1 and
2.

At the end of the day, I fail to see the relevance of the
Iranian formation to points 1 or 2.

It is, however, related to point 4. As this point is speculative
and/or subjective, they cancel each other out. Mac sees a
similarity, I don't. Lan (for example) sees a similarity,
someone else doesn't. Ultimately, it is of zero value, and adds
nothing to our knowledge.

All that we can do to progress our understanding is to study the
actual feature further. I am sure that this will be done, but it
will be subject to prioritisation, and it seems to me that the
chances of discovering the remains of microbial life, or the
availability of water on Mars override application of resource
to the feature, based on probability of meaningfull results.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my disregard for the value
of speculation (other than in small doses), but I hope that you
can understand why I hold this point of view.

At least a two-year old drew some entertainment value from my
Cheese theory!


Cheese,

Joe









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                Re: Formation In Iran Resembles Face On Mars

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:32:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:33:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation In Iran Resembles Face On Mars


Hello, all


Here is everything you always wanted to know about Cinder Cones,
the volcanic mounds in question (and compared to the face on
Mars).

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/CinderCone/description_cinder_cone.html

Back in my DC-7 days I have either personally visited some of
them or darn near hit them (Sunset Crater area near Flagstaff AZ
and Walker Range south of Bend,OR come to mind - none look like
the formation in Iran or the 'Face on Mars'.

Note: what is referred to as a 'butte' in the West - notably
Oregon - usually is a cinder cone. There are _lots_ of them
here.


GT McCoy









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                 Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:34:52 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:06:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:14:22 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:01:14 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>You, sir (note the lower case) are anathema here. And I
 >>personally take your remarks as an insult. Apologize... and I
 >>mean that!

 >But didn't you know, Jim? Being a pseudo-skeptic means never
 >having to say you're sorry!

Dear Lan, List and Errol,

I must admit, Lan, Oldberger really got to me. It does not
happen often that Morty gets ticked more than a deer in the NY
woods, but he did it. And I must also admit that there are very
few people who can do that to me. Very few. But, we all have our
Achilles heel. And I know a heel or too who should fly away.
Oldbarge, sir, you are among a priviledged few. Too dense and
proud to admit culpable iggerantz and not schmart enough to
light a candle.

Which is what you should do, as I have engaged my uncle Toto, in
a contract with which to do your kneecaps. Uncle Toto never
charges his nephew (that'd be me) a dime for his services. Hey,
you wanna proof-a? They never did find Hoffa!

<sigh>

I guess I am really getting old. Lan, as for your comment, I
accept it in the vein it was offered. The one on my left arm,
going down to my carpals. I use it often to eat crow
intravenously.


Jim









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 ><snip>

 >>The basis of my theory is a comparison between the Moon and
 >>cheese, and pointing out the similarities (colour and shape).
 >>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >Poeple have been to the Moon. So have robots. Likewise, people
 >have been to the features in question in Iran and found them to
 >be artificial. For your Cheese Theory rhetoric to have any
 >argumentative validity, then my contention that the Mars face
 >and the formation in Iran are similar would have to be based off
 >of a conspiracy theory of some kind. I've made no such
 >suggestions.

 >Your cheese spiel is another in an endless parade of examples
 >equating anything remotely smacking of intelligence on Mars with
 >'conspiracy theories', regardless of the fact that there is no
 >connection at all.

 >=====


Hello All:

One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
be hundreds in France alone.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:43:41 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:09:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:00:14 -0000

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:20:43 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >>Mac wasn't giving a theory; he was making an observation.

 ><snip>

 >I think that I am perhaps being unreasonable here, and I
 >genuinely apologise for that.

 >I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a (in my opinion,
 >remote) possibility that the the structure on Mars is
 >artificial.

 >I also accept that Mac has invested serious effort in trying to
 >demonstrate this possibility.

 >Where I draw the line is when assumptions are made and
 >conclusions drawn (or actually inferrred implicitly rather than
 >explicitly) which are based purely on observational,
 >speculative, or subjective data.

<snip>

 >At least a two-year old drew some entertainment value from my
 >Cheese theory!

 >Cheese,

 >Joe

Dear Guiseppe, List and Errl,

I am genuinely impressed with any man who fesses up and
apologizes to another man, who admits an error in whatever and
is a perfect gentleman. Of course, only I, the great Gesundt, is
a perfect gentleman, but you come next.

Seriously, Joe, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for
making an apology. It's refreshing. It's unexpected and when it
happens, it makes me feel that there is hope.


Your new fiend ... friend, sorry,

Jim Mortellaro








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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:54:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:11:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:21:39 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:54:58 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars...
 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:25:20 -0000

 >>>Thank you for your comments, Mac, Jim, Christopher, and Lan,

 >>>I speculate that the Moon is actually made of cheese. Now I
 >>>realise that this may sound ridiculous, but if you spend as many
 >>>hours as I have following up this theory, I am sure that you will
 >>>reach the same conclusion.

 >><snip>

 >>>"So what if the Moon is made of cheese? I don't care, it's not
 >>>important!"

 >>>The more I dig, the more convinced I am that a revelation will
 >>>be made in the near future. If we continue to consume cheese at
 >>>the current rate, in fifty years time the effect on the Moon
 >>>will be obvious, together with the effects on our ecosystem, and
 >>>an alternative source of cheese will have to be found. Cheese
 >>>will be the driving force behind space exploration, so it is of
 >>>vital importance to humanity. Because of the importance of this
 >>>matter, I would like everyone to contact their MP/Senator and
 >>>bring it to their attention.

 >>>"This is wild speculation!"

 >>>Yes, but speculation is the precursor to discovery. Mark my
 >>>words, it will all turn out to be as I have written, and my
 >>>investment of research time will be justified! I have devoted
 >>>eight years of my life towards researching and exposing this
 >>>scandal. Now is the time to confront our political leaders and
 >>>representatives with the proven facts!

 >>Your proof that the moon is made of cheese is very convincing...
 >>in fact, its as solid as a swiss cheese.. (swiss cheese is one
 >>of the artificial cheeses that could not be made on the moon
 >>because it is full of holes caused by gasses that don't exist on
 >>the moon)

 >The maximum temperature on the sunlit side of the moon is 110
 >degrees centigrade. If the moon were made out of cheese, it
 >would have to be in what scientists refer to as the 'fondue'
 >state of matter. Next theory, please.


Dear Lan:

For one thing, I'm not too sure about the 110C temperature of
the sunlit side of the Moon. Regardless, and if so, it would
simply form a nice crust, but not incinerate. The colder
interior would hold that in check, much like the flaming
meteorite which is only warm to the touch if picked up
immediately, and soon becomes bitter cold.

I would expect a 'cheese Moon' to have a nice crusty surface at
first, becoming rather dusty over geological time, as the
volatiles are sublimed away in the absence of an atmosphere.

In short, future French and Italian astronauts will have to dig
down some meters before anything interesting is likely to be
found.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:26:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:50:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >><snip>

 >>>The basis of my theory is a comparison between the Moon and
 >>>cheese, and pointing out the similarities (colour and shape).
 >>>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >>Poeple have been to the Moon. So have robots. Likewise, people
 >>have been to the features in question in Iran and found them to
 >>be artificial. For your Cheese Theory rhetoric to have any
 >>argumentative validity, then my contention that the Mars face
 >>and the formation in Iran are similar would have to be based off
 >>of a conspiracy theory of some kind. I've made no such
 >>suggestions.

 >>Your cheese spiel is another in an endless parade of examples
 >>equating anything remotely smacking of intelligence on Mars with
 >>'conspiracy theories', regardless of the fact that there is no
 >>connection at all.

 >>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >Hello All:

 >One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
 >kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
 >be hundreds in France alone.

That's forgetting the aged ripeness of _this_ particular post,
Mr. Hatch. Mr. McGonagle will certainly have to include _it_ to
be even remotely comprehensive... <oh oh... no emoticon!>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred (strike the sun if it offends me) Lehmberg's
Alien View" at his HostPros URL:

http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:46:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:52:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:59:16 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 05:26:57 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Hello Lan:

 >>I'm sure there are many skeptical articles in the mainstream
 >>scientific press about the Cydonia 'Face On Mars'. I would guess
 >>its used as a classic case for psychology studies among other
 >>things.

 >Actually, there are none that I'm aware of. I know you can find
 >such stuff in the 'popular' media, though.

 >>Do you know of any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals
 >>that propose this feature is artificial? If so, are any of them
 >>online where we can read them easily?

 >Here are the ones I know about concerning Cydonia. There are one
 >or two others not on this list:

 >Carlotto, Mark J., Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian
 >Surface Features. Applied Optics, Vol. 27, No. 10 (1988).

 >Carlotto, M. J. (1997) "Evidence in support of the hypothesis
 >that certain object on Mars are artificial in origin". Journal
 >of Scientific Exploration, 11.2

 >Crater, H.W., and McDaniel, S. V., (1999) "Mound configurations
 >on the Martian Cydonian Plain" Journal of Scientific
 >Exploration, 13,3.

 >Carlotto, M., Crater, H., Erjavec, J., McDaniel, S.V.,
 >(1999)"Response to Geomorphology of Selected Massifs on the
 >Plains of Cydonia, Mars by David Pieri". Journal of Scientific
 >Exploration, 13,3

 >Carlotto, Mark J. and Stein, M. C., ?A Method for Searching for
 >Artificial Objects on Planetary Surfaces.? Journal of the
 >British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).

 >DiPietro, V., Molenaar, G., & Brandenburg, J., The Cydonia
 >Hypothesis.. Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 5, No. 1,
 >pages 1-25 (1991).

 >O'Leary, B., "Analysis of Images of the Face on Mars and
 >Possible Intelligent Origin." Journal of the British
 >Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).


Hello Lan:

Thanks for all that legwork! Perhaps some of the SSE articles
are online.

The years may be important; some articles may date to the days
before the more recent higher res images from Malin. Your other
source is the British Interplanetary Society.

I suppose it is arguable whether mainstream scientists consider
one journal, both or neither to be properly "peer-reviewed".

Sorry about the cheese stuff. It made me really hungry. Now I
have to go get some more fake roquefort.


Best

- Larry Hatch









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                  Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:30:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:58:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well - Bourdais


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:32:37 EST
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Is Alive And Well
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Roswell Is Alive And Well
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:47 +0100

 >>Hello to the List,

 >>I wish first to add my little piece of "critical thinking" to
 >>Karl Pflock's last post to the List, regarding Don Ecker's
 >>article in UFO Magazine which revealed that Senator Thurmond had
 >>signed an authorization for his preface, with the mention of the
 >>provisional title of the book "The Roswell book".

 >Note it was Don who made the "claim" and showed an alleged
 >document that mentions a so called "The Roswell book."

 >Having been involved in the publishing industry a few years back
 >I can tell you that had the Senator actually written the forward
 >knowing it was connected to or about Roswell, he would have made
 >some direct mention or reference to it in his intro.

 >The fact that he did not tells me that he wrote the intro based
 >upon the I walked with Giants book or whatever that was.

Your remark seems reasonable to me. However, the situation is
not completely clear : why, then, did'nt he write the name of
the book "I walk with Giants" ?

<snip>

 >>Second option: Senator Thurmond signed the authorization with
 >>the provisional title on it. When the book was published, his
 >>office denied it, and now they are compelled to stick to that
 >>line. Then make a copy, delete the title, and send a copy of it
 >>to Karl Pflock.

 >This is highly unlikely.

One sure way to settle the matter would be that the office of
Senator Thurmond would show, to some independant and reliable
witnesses, the original copy of the authorisation, with
Thurmond's handwriting. Is there a chance that this could be
done?


Gildas Bourdais









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              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:05:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:02:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Clark


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:06:33 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'


 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:50:32 -0600

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:24:35 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Cernan is on record as saying he thought UFOs may be ET craft,
 >or words to that effect. Lots of people deny saying things they
 >really said or claim their words were taken out of context. You
 >now say that Cernan was misquoted by a major newspaper. The
 >burden of proof is on you to prove it.

This hilarious episode reminds me of a celebrated flap involving
the great Swiss psychological philosopher Carl Gustav Jung.

In 1958 the Lorenzens of APRO publicized an interview Jung had
given a Zurich magazine four years earlier, in which he
discussed UFOs in a cautiously favorable light. The Lorenzens's
belated awareness of the interview caused them to write an
article about it in the A.P.R.O. Bulletin. A press-wire reporter
picked it up, and the story got international attention. Jung
found himself on the receiving end of ridicule. (Newsweek quoted
an unnamed U.S. Air Force official as saying, "I always thought
those head shrinkers were crackpots. Now I know.")

Jung soon released a statement claiming that he had been quoted
out of context. Associated Press declared that Jung was
"convinced that people who think they have seen flying saucers
just wanted to see them."

The following year, Jung wrote a book, Flying Saucers: A Modern
Myth of Things Seen in the Skies, with a final chapter which
hardly anyone seems to have read but which, very carefully,
expresses an opinion opposite the one expressed in the AP story.
In fact, as the reader makes his or her way through the opaque
prose, it becomes clear that Jung thought UFOs probably are
physical "spacecraft which have been here for many years but
which only now are being noticed by human beings needing
spiritual direction."

A recent biographer of Charles A. Lindbergh records an incident
in which Lindbergh, who took the official AF line on UFOs, and
Jung got into a heated argument, with the latter taking a firm
pro-UFO stance.

Back in the 1980s, amusingly, a UFOphobe who admired Jung wanted
to 'prove' that his hero didn't believe in UFOs. He wrote one of
Jung's most prominent associates (Jung himself died in 1961) and
got back a letter assuring him that Jung rejected "the reality
of extraterrestrial ufos." The UFOphobe waved the letter as
proof, when in fact, as even he must have known in his heart, it
was just PR intended to distance Jung from heresy and a possible
reiteration of the embarrassing 1958 uproar.

Claiming to have been quoted out of context is the oldest, most
transparent dodge in the history of denial. Moreover, who would
believe for a minute that Cernan, if he still harbors pro-UFO
views, would admit to them, especially to someone like longtime,
vocal UFO - and ufologist-basher Oberg, who has ranted to NASA
associates about "UFOniks" and "UFO nuts" who "for fun and
profit have been slandering our space program and lying through
their teeth..... All of the UFO business you have to do is an
essential waste of time. So if I can in any way make things
easier or faster, since I know many of the UFO freaks and their
weaknesses and biases, please don't hesitate to give me an
unofficial call" (quoted from a letter to NASA headquarters,
June 30, 1977, when NASA was briefly giving thought to taking on
a UFO project).

I have no idea what Cernan thinks or does not think about UFOs
at the moment, and I really don't care that much. UFOs do or do
not exist regardless of his or anybody's opinion, positive or
negative, about them. But I am certain that if he holds a
heterodox view that Oberg would not like to hear, Oberg will
never hear it. After all, that would make Cernan a UFOnik, a UFO
nut, and a UFO freak, and who wants to be one of those?


Jerry Clark









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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:33:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:34:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:57

 >You're the one that does this for a living;

Where was I supposed to mail my invoices? I've never gotten that
figured out. Making a living writing skeptical articles about
UFOs? Jeez, talk about delusional. . . .

 >you're the one with access to a world stage that is best served
 >by the efforts of selected others;

Please reword this, I can't figure out your point.

 >you're the one that wants to invalidate 50
 >years of ufological research (stonewalled, belittled, and
 >discounted every step of the way by the unelected) to paint it
 >as the confused realm of the misinformed, the mentally ill, and
 >the misdirecting...

Don't generalize my criticisms of you with my critique of
ufology in general.

 >Otherwise,
 >I'll have your literary liver with the obligatory wine and fava
 >beans... and we'll parse, even more judiciously, _your_
 >aggregate constructiveness.

Next thing you know, you'll be comparing me with bin Laden and
Nazis ... oh, wait, that's already started!

So the trick is, get huffy-puffy and get your feelings hurt, and
that makes contrary evidence go away, or get made invisible? No
wonder you're still locked in an intellectual ghetto with walls
of your own making.

I still don't see any explanation of the 'Herr Oberg' title
except as an appeal to national, ethnic, or ideological bigotry,
but I do confess I have a very hard time divining the meaning of
most of your text, so I could be mistaken in this, too.

Shouldn't evidence, from any source, be the utmost value, not
personalities and manners?

Let's see, the evidence discussed:

Cernan 1973 quote, I questioned its validity, and trustworthy
evidence was offered that it reflected Cernan's actual words;
investigation in NASA archives continuing;

Cernan's current views: I did original research to establish his
views are different than expressed in 1973.

X-15 UFO story, I established that WWW-published versions which
omit reference to small size and physical appearance, were
misleading;

X-15 actual event: we all contribute half-baked impressions,
challenge each other to correct misimpressions, dig out original
materials, and converge on a more realistic portrait of the
event. Research continuing. Indications the event demands a
non-prosaic explanation are diminishing.

von Braun quote from 1959: I provide original research showing
the quote as published by Tim Good is not correct.

Isn't ufology better for all of these steps? Is the gain worth
the pain? Or would we seriously really rather leave all previous
accounts unchallenged and uncorrected?


Jim Oberg








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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:33:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:57 -0600

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:09:03 -0600

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:57 -0600

 >>>if you were remotely believable (?), it would be perfect.
 >>>But I'd sooner trust OBL's opinion on Judaism than your opinion
 >>>on UFO's. I don't think that's just me.

 >>I confess to taking an improper glee in provoking such
 >>freak-outs from fanatics, and I apologize to exposing the rest
 >>of this List - which handles many controversies in a gentlemanly
 >>fashion - to this level of vituperation. I accept my share of
 >>the blame for inciting it.

 >Sir! Not your share! The blame. Nothing less! The fanatic you
 >malign is a function of the jealous and indifferent system you
 >front for.

 >>I'm pleased with the give-and-take re X-15 that has certainly
 >>improved my _own_ understanding of the project and the specific
 >>'UFO sighting' which sparked the discussions. I'll pass around
 >>my draft description of the event and its place in UFO lore
 >>shortly, for critiques both constructive and Lehmbergian.

 >Hey Mr. Oberg... you're the one with special responsibility
 >here! Don't try to distract us with an assumed cloak of the
 >reasonably collegiate...

Hiya Alfred, Mr. Oberg, All,

Alfred wrote:

 >You're the one that does this for a living; you're the one with
 >access to a world stage that is best served by the efforts of
 >selected others; you're the one that wants to invalidate 50
 >years of ufological research (stonewalled, belittled, and
 >discounted every step of the way by the unelected) to paint it
 >as the confused realm of the misinformed, the mentally ill, and
 >the misdirecting...

Al I've been squirming in my seat for for the last couple of
weeks searching for the 'right words' to write to Oberg. Once
again, you have not only cut through all the crap, but said it
better and more succinctly than I ever could have. You clothed
my own sentiments and thoughts with exactly the right words.

Mr. Oberg, as a long-time member/participant in this forum I
want you to know that Alfred has never spoken truer words and
that he has spoken (eloquently) for me as well. Things must be
really s-l-o-w on your end or I imagine you wouldn't be
slumming/making the rounds of the UFO Lists just to get your
'cookies' by messing with the locals. As in...

 >>I confess to taking an improper glee in provoking such
 >>freak-outs from fanatics,

Participation in these e-mail forums is not intended to be a
substitute for intimacy with the opposite sex.

Members of your church (CSICOP) make the rounds from time to
time, and just like their counterparts the Jehova's Witnesses
'presume' to have the market cornered on the truth and to
re-define reality for the rest of us. Like the cock-sure 'true
believer' fanatics that they are, they attempt to turn it all
around by pointing their smug, condescending finger at others
and projecting their own shortcomings onto everybody else.

(ie; accusing others of being "fanatics".)

There are few who are as convinced of their own self-
righteousness as you are Mr. Oberg. I don't know anyone who has
ever worn that suit well. Alright, maybe God can pull it off.
But mere mortals like ourselves? I don't think so.

Thankfully those same individuals/List participants that you
rightfully apologize to, above, also happen to be intelligent
enough to see right through you and your fanatical ilk like a
cheap pane of glass.

My best to whoever it is that yanks your puppet strings.  ;)

Back to Lehmberg:

Freakin' thought police. Shine your light on these creatures of
the dark Alfred. IMHO they're worse than any threat the aliens
may pose.

Tell it like it is, Dog!  ;)

Sincerely,

John Velez










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                        The Real Story Of Swamp Gas?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:38:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:41:08 -0500
Subject: The Real Story Of Swamp Gas?


The Real Story Of Swamp Gas, by DJJG

What's up with Peclicans these days? No pelicanism? Maybe it's
because I personally exposed the politically incorrect version
of the _kind_ of pelican? Well, I just suppose so! People on
this list are so afraid of mentioning the fact that pelicans
come in black, white and shades of yellow (didn't know that,
did'ja?) that they insisted on concentrating on this one kind of
pelican. The ones with the shiney tops. Have you no shame? Say
it like it is.

I insist on being herd... heard....! Now there is a new problem
with which to debunk yet another fallicksy... fallacy. And that
would be swamp gas. Remember folks, you heard it first, right
here at the beautiful, downtown UpDates factory machine works.
And you heard it from me. The one and only.

Ready? Good. Now sit back and sip a Grip, or if your name is
similar to what birds eggs do, a beer (how gauch!). Hyneck was
indeed wrong to cop to this swamp gas thing. But he did not know
why. It was because of that which was making all this swamp gas.
And, it was not being produced in swamps. Nope. It was _always_
being produced on Canal Street, as we have been making our fresh
wines there since before RosSwell.

See, the residents of lower Manhattan had to deal with the
stench, the ascerbic, maloderous and aciduous stink of what
smelled like the effluvium of the unwashed. Yes, and as Gesundt
was experimenting with various processes, he generated a huge
volume of the stuff. What he decided to do after numerous
complaints from the entire island of Manhattan, was to dump all
of it in the country, where the swamps were able to adsorb the
stuff. All of this gas unfortunately, created a most
unpleasantly overabundance of the stuff and well, it sort of...
lit up the night. Hunters and campers would attempt to light a
camp fire and were never heard from again. The story was that
these lit up gaseous thingies were UFO's and the UFO's abducted
the people. 'Swhat happened to that guy who was missing for
three days, whatshisname!

And there were many more episodes of abductions from UFOs
lighting up the night. Why some of the dump sites actually lit
up the days, too.

And so, again, you heard it first here. Tomorrow we shall expose
yet another icon. Pia Zad... no, I didn't mean that. We shall
expose yet another icon of this UFO condon... condom...
conundrum (whew, never write with an open bottle of the Grip
nearby...). And that will be, are you ready for this? That will
be the biography of Fill Class and Herr OldBart, who will be
exposed by this writer as the REAL king of the abductees. For in
this expose', I shall demonstrate that Class and OldBarf are
really aliens, disguised as mild mannered skeptibunkies.

Stay tuned.

Dr. G.







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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:01:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:42:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:00:14 -0000

<snip>

 >5. Mac uses highly speculative and/or loosely worded statements
 >intended to be used as justifications for further resource
 >allocation to this feature.

It's "loosely worded" because I'm suggesting a route for further
exploration, not pretending to some expertise I don't have. I
specifically commented on my site that I _don't_ think the
Iranian tell was meant to look like a face. But I _do_ think
it's morphology and context have the potential to tell us some
interesting things about the culture who built it.

And if it turns out that the Cydonia Face is artificial, then we
will be in a better position to apply terrestrial models for
what we're seeing.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

      Visit http://mactonnies.com









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:47:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:59:16 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

<snip>

 >>Do you know of any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals
 >>that propose this feature is artificial? If so, are any of them
 >>online where we can read them easily?

 >Here are the ones I know about concerning Cydonia.
 >There are one or two others not on this list:

 >Carlotto, Mark J., Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian
 >Surface Features. Applied Optics, Vol. 27, No. 10 (1988).

 >Carlotto, M. J. (1997) "Evidence in support of the hypothesis
 >that certain object on Mars are artificial in origin". Journal
 >of Scientific Exploration, 11.2

 >Crater, H.W., and McDaniel, S. V., (1999) "Mound configurations
 >on the Martian Cydonian Plain" Journal of Scientific
 >Exploration, 13,3.

 >Carlotto, M., Crater, H., Erjavec, J., McDaniel, S.V.,
 >(1999)"Response to Geomorphology of Selected Massifs on the
 >Plains of Cydonia, Mars by David Pieri". Journal of Scientific
 >Exploration, 13,3

 >Carlotto, Mark J. and Stein, M. C., ?A Method for Searching for
 >Artificial Objects on Planetary Surfaces.? Journal of the
 >British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).

 >DiPietro, V., Molenaar, G., & Brandenburg, J., The Cydonia
 >Hypothesis.. Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 5, No. 1,
 >pages 1-25 (1991).

 >O'Leary, B., "Analysis of Images of the Face on Mars and
 >Possible Intelligent Origin." Journal of the British
 >Interplanetary Society, Vol. 43 No. 5 (May 1990).

Although technically not a peer-reviewed scientific paper, the
book 'The Case For The Face' contains some very interesting and
compelling information from the authors cited above (including
Mr. Fleming).



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

      Visit http://mactonnies.com









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   Dec > Dec 15

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:46:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:13:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:00:14 -0000

 >I think that I am perhaps being unreasonable here, and I
 >genuinely apologise for that.

It's not very often that someone does that on email lists. It
shows a considerable amount of class.

 >I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a (in my opinion,
 >remote) possibility that the the structure on Mars is
 >artificial.

 >I also accept that Mac has invested serious effort in trying to
 >demonstrate this possibility.

 >Where I draw the line is when assumptions are made and
 >conclusions drawn (or actually inferrred implicitly rather than
 >explicitly) which are based purely on observational,
 >speculative, or subjective data.

It may have seemed to you that Mac was implicitly speculating
that the Iranian 'tell' was evidence of the transmission of
culture from Mars to Earth or vice versa. But I really don't
think that was his intent. The people at JPL seem to be saying
that they can tell with absolute certainty which structures are
artificial and which are natural. It just isn't that easy, at
least for ancient structures. Some natural structures can look
very artificial to the untrained eye, but some artificial
structures can also look natural. So I think it's instructive to
be familiar with examples of both, and I'm always interested
when somebody finds one (either natural or artificial) that they
think might be useful for comparative purposes.

There was considerable controversy in the early 20th Century
over whether odd-looking hills called "tells" in the Middle East
were natural or artificial. Archeologists had to do quite a bit
of digging before they proved they were artificial. I've got no
doubt that if you were to give someone at JPL an aerial photo of
a tell and pretended it was something on Mars, they'd
immediately say it was just an ordinary Martian hill.

 >I am quite prepared to accept errors based on misunderstanding
 >of the technology involved in the case of amateurs, but it does
 >seem bizzare to me that JPL should speculate based on incomplete
 >information, eg to go so far as to describe a route from the
 >base of the feature to its summit without reasonably accurate
 >elevation data.

They would have done better to just release the image without
comment, which is what they had promised to do in the first
place. The fact that they aren't willing to let the issue stand
or fall on its own without giving it a good hard push over the
cliff only tends to add to the mystery they want to dispel.

 >I don't want to be seen as an apologist for JPL, but the only
 >logical reasons as I see it for their position on this is as
 >follows:

 >1. They have a limited budget.

 >2. Because of [1], they need to apply resources to maximise
 >return (in terms of understanding of Martian geology) on every
 >mission.

I doubt that the Cydonia images required major expenditures of
resources. JPL had enough money left over in its budget for the
public relations article. I don't know of anyone who's demanded
that JPL give the Face any high priority to the detriment of the
primary mission goals. The MGS has been up there for over three
years now, and taking a couple pictures of the Face during that
time isn't going to impede the progress of science to any
noticeable degree.

 >3. JPL (like myself) regard the structure as most probably a
 >natural abheration, not typical of Martian geology, and
 >therefore not likely to improve our knowledge in this field.

According to them, it _is_ typical, but they've yet to support
that conclusion, as far as I can see.

 >4. JPL have encountered extreme pressure to focus on the feature
 >for future missions, partly through the efforts of Mac and
 >people with a similar point of view, in conflict with their
 >objectives.

JPL's objective is to acquire knowledge about the planet Mars.
There are some unusual-looking structures on Mars (the Face is
certainly not the only one).  Whatever these things ultimately
prove to be, it seems to me that acquiring knowledge about them
is something that in part satisfies that objective. As for
"extreme pressure," JPL might have a better appreciation of what
that really is after the new budget-cutting NASA Administrator
has been in office for a while.









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   Dec > Dec 15

                  Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:40:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:56:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:33:41 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:57

 >>You're the one that does this for a living;

 >Where was I supposed to mail my invoices? I've never gotten that
 >figured out. Making a living writing skeptical articles about
 >UFOs? Jeez, talk about delusional....

That's the world _you_ live in, Mr. Oberg. It exists as a result
of your complacency, your indifferent sensitivity, your
preferred ignorance, your selective memory, and your abject lack
of journalistic grace. If your living drips from your pen, I'm
not delusional. And isn't this post just like you though? If
_you_ can't figure it out, it's crazy. What arrogance, what
officious snobbery, what total and unjustified self-inflation...

 >>you're the one with access to a world stage that is best served
 >>by the efforts of selected others;

 >Please reword this, I can't figure out your point.

It's abundantly plain. You don't perform a productive service,
abdicate to Dick Hall or Stanton Friedman and get off the stage.

 >>you're the one that wants to invalidate 50
 >>years of ufological research (stonewalled, belittled, and
 >>discounted every step of the way by the unelected) to paint it
 >>as the confused realm of the misinformed, the mentally ill, and
 >>the misdirecting...

 >Don't generalize my criticisms of you with my critique of
 >ufology in general.

But sir, forgetting that this discussion is not about me, when
have you ever provided that which could be called a rational
critique about anything, much _less_ me? In any case, I'd find
it as valuable as OBL's critique of the Jews... and that's not a
direct comparison, sir... that's an analogy. I'm _sure_ you know
the difference.

 >>Otherwise,
 >>I'll have your literary liver with the obligatory wine and fava
 >>beans... and we'll parse, even more judiciously, _your_
 >>aggregate constructiveness.

 >Next thing you know, you'll be comparing me with bin Laden and
 >Nazis ... oh, wait, that's already started!

Yes, by all means, tell your intrepid troop of slack jawed
ufological reactionaries that you're being directly compared to
OBL on the UpDates list. Please. We'll just let that be
_another_ mud and manure brick of facile obfuscation that can be
attributed directly to you.

 >So the trick is, get huffy-puffy and get your feelings hurt, and
 >that makes contrary evidence go away, or get made invisible?

Why would you think that you would be allowed to put your custom
trademark spin on this? Let's turn it around? Is there any
evidence that _you_ ignore, make go away, or presume
invisibility for? Any at all? That's the issue here and the fuel
for my considered inability to take you seriously, accept your
arguments, or appreciate your reasoning (which I think canted,
unbalanced, and shallow). Moreover, I'm not (remotely) hurt yet.

 >No
 >wonder you're still locked in an intellectual ghetto with walls
 >of your own making.

The ghetto's occupants never _make_ their own ghettos, Mr.
Oberg. They are forced there by the arbitrary, the privileged,
and the bigoted that provide for them. Moreover, I soar and
cleave, sir. Like the UFO? I'm just not going to be where you
tell me... get used to that.

 >I still don't see any explanation of the 'Herr Oberg' title
 >except as an appeal to national, ethnic, or ideological bigotry,

I was thinking more along the lines of a character in a Mel
Brooks movie, Mr. Oberg. A monocle wearing bureaucrat of a
corrupt social system with a thick accent - the fake sabre scar
over his right eye provided by a discreet plastic surgeon...
"Vie are killink the girl tonight... sign ze paper..." Holding
your cigarettes between thumb and forefinger... that sort of
thing. I'm sure you're relieved to get to the bottom of
_that_... <g>.

 >but I do confess I have a very hard time divining the meaning of
 >most of your text, so I could be mistaken in this, too.

That _is_ a little bit easier isn't it? On the other hand? I
understand you perfectly. I even know what you're going to say
before you say it. David Rudiak has demonstrated an even more
refined talent in that regard, some have said and most would
agree. And know what? I'm betting you "divine the meaning" all
too well...

 >Shouldn't evidence, from any source, be the utmost value, not
 >personalities and manners?

 From _any_ source? Evidence from any source is not necessarily
the best evidence. Ruppelt and Hynek are _quite_ clear about
that. Consider yourself, after all. I wouldn't buy a used UFO
from you. I'd check if I knew the time and _you_ said the sun
was up outside... with all respect.

 >Let's see, the evidence discussed:

 >Cernan 1973 quote, I questioned its validity, and trustworthy
 >evidence was offered that it reflected Cernan's actual words;
 >investigation in NASA archives continuing;

Your feeble attempt at a loss-leader? Was that a bid to appear
reasonable? I'm still too distracted by the casual insult above
to believe it. "Don't generalize my criticisms of you with my
critique of ufology in general..." was an insult, was it not?

 >Cernan's current views: I did original research to establish his
 >views are different than expressed in 1973.

...mud and manure...

 >X-15 UFO story, I established that WWW-published versions which
 >omit reference to small size and physical appearance, were
 >misleading;

...mud and manure with a dash of straw...

 >X-15 actual event: we all contribute half-baked impressions,
 >challenge each other to correct misimpressions, dig out original
 >materials, and converge on a more realistic portrait of the
 >event. Research continuing. Indications the event demands a
 >non-prosaic explanation are diminishing.

...mud and manure with a Delta airline peanut in it...

 >von Braun quote from 1959: I provide original research showing
 >the quote as published by Tim Good is not correct.

...but there has already been so much mud and manure!

 >Isn't ufology better for all of these steps?

Your steps are all down and back. Ufology is far from served.
You continue to fuel the engines of ridicule and demean the
investigation. Stop helping. You're not.

 >Is the gain worth
 >the pain?

There's been no gain and needless pain...

 >Or would we seriously really rather leave all previous
 >accounts unchallenged and uncorrected?

Mr. Oberg! That's what _you_ do. The substantive accounts _are_
unchallenged and the complacent ignorance that you foment
_remains_ uncorrected. That's not my fault. That's the fault of
the man who owns your stage. That's _your_ fault, sir!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 15

                  If You Read This, We'll Have To Kill You

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:05:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:05:02 -0500
Subject: If You Read This, We'll Have To Kill You

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?f=3D/stories/20011212/857310.htm=
l

December 12, 2001

If you read this, we'll have to kill you

Security guard strike at Area 51 puts top-secret site in the
limelight


Marina Jim=E9nez
National Post, with files from news services


A group of secretive U.S. security guards who work at a place
that does not officially exist have walked off their jobs,
bringing unwanted publicity to their workplace: a covert Nevada
military installation and apocryphal alien landing site known as
Area 51.

The guards, dubbed the "Camo dudes" for their camouflaged
uniforms, referred to the location of the clandestine site as
"nowhere" and "out of town." The details of their assignment are
unknown; their employer can confirm nothing.

"Use your imagination," said Vernell Hall, who represents the
workers, in response to queries about the site.

Greg Rentchler, security manager for EG&G Technical Services
Inc., which employs the 70-odd security guards, was equally
vague about the installation:

"I can't talk about that," he said. "I can only say the guards
work in remote installations. We do technical services for the
government so some of things we do may be classified."

In fact, Area 51 is inside the Nellis Air Force Base, 150
kilometres northwest of Las Vegas, and is part of a classified
military aircraft testing site -- as well as the site of
reported UFO landings, visiting aliens and other unexplained
phenomena.

The 15,540-hectare swath of desert located on the dry bed of
Groom Lake goes by many names, including Paradise Ranch.
Dreamland is the moniker used by pilots and military air-traffic
controllers for the airspace above Area 51, a no-fly zone for
everyone but the servicemen, officers and other officials
working at the non-existent base.

The area has long fuelled the imaginations of conspiracy
theorists who believe Area 51 is where the government took the
aliens and their spacecrafts that supposedly crash-landed in
Roswell, N.M., in July, 1947. At the time, the Air Force issued
a statement saying the recovered craft was a weather balloon --
but believers persist to this day. According to published
reports, some locals claim to have seen bodies, while others say
they worked on alien spacecraft there.

Locals revel in the lore. The two-lane road to the area is known
as "The Extraterrestrial Highway." It runs where the Mojave and
Great Basin deserts meet and is a desolate place, with a big
desert sky.

Rachel, a town 70 kilometres from Area 51, has a cheeky sign for
visitors: "Earthlings Welcome." A caf=E9 in a trailer called the
Little A'Le'Inn offers rooms for rent.

The town is described by one journalist as "a melting pot of
Internet junkies, conspiracy theorists, anti-government militia
types, scientists, entrepreneurs and military watchdogs."

The strike brings a more mundane element to this other-worldly
place.

Mr. Hall, leader of the Security Police Association of Nevada,
the in-house bargaining unit, said the members decided to walk
out after three months of negotiation failed to produce a new
contract.

"There's been too much overtime since Sept. 11 -- overtime on
top of overtime," he complained. Mr. Hall said the guards work
12-hour shifts, staying four days "out of town" before flying
back to Las Vegas for three days off. "We don't get break
periods," he said.

Mr. Rentchler said negotiations continue, but could not comment
further. "We have a good relationship with those guys. They are
our employees," he said.

He has been fielding calls from across the country since the
guards began their strike on Monday.

In the meantime, supervisors have replaced the guards,
patrolling the area in Jeep Cherokees and Ford pickups, peering
at traffic through high-powered binoculars.

The "Camos" do not have legal authority outside the restricted
area, marked by a line of orange posts, but may detain members
of the public who trespass. One Las Vegas resident waged a
failed battle to keep the government from classifying a nearby
hillside and prime viewing site he called "Freedom Ridge."

The workers are shuttled to and from Las Vegas's McCarran
Airport in passenger jets known as "Janet" planes, named for the
radio call sign of the private airline operated by EG&G,
according to the Web site www.dream landresort.com, which
monitors Area 51.

Over the years, the U.S. military has used the installation to
test such spy planes as U-2s, A-12s and SR-71s, apparently even
testing former Soviet aircraft. B-52 bombers and the F-117A
stealth fighter have also been flown there.

The "Camos" remain an integral part of Area 51's mystique.
Observed one recent visitor on the dreamlandresort Web site: "We
set out for Area 51. Before being greeted by the Cammo's (sic)
at Groom Lake Road, we were buzzed by four, count' em four, A-10
warthogs. This freaked my wife out and our video of the
encounter looks like a cheap rip-off of the Blair Witch
Project.... It was a blast!"








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   Dec > Dec 16

                 Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:38:22 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:32:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:40:58 -0600

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:33:41 -0600

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:57

 >>>You're the one that does this for a living;

 >>Where was I supposed to mail my invoices? I've never gotten that
 >>figured out. Making a living writing skeptical articles about
 >>UFOs? Jeez, talk about delusional....

 >That's the world _you_ live in, Mr. Oberg. It exists as a result
 >of your complacency, your indifferent sensitivity, your
 >preferred ignorance, your selective memory, and your abject lack
 >of journalistic grace. If your living drips from your pen, I'm
 >not delusional. And isn't this post just like you though? If
 >_you_ can't figure it out, it's crazy. What arrogance, what
 >officious snobbery, what total and unjustified self-inflation...

 >>>you're the one with access to a world stage that is best served
 >>>by the efforts of selected others;

 >>Please reword this, I can't figure out your point.

 >It's abundantly plain. You don't perform a productive service,
 >abdicate to Dick Hall or Stanton Friedman and get off the stage.

<snip>

Oooow! Ooooow! (As the intrepid Horshack stabs the air with his
arm)!

Oooow, wait Mr. Oberg, please, please oh pretty please don't
leave without that apology I aksed for!

I and others among us, expect an apology for the dubious honor
you bestowed on us, calling us 'fanatics'! Indeed, I demand an
apology. For it is you who are the fanatic, treating not only
the subject but those who study it, as chattell. This being a
public forum, the best I can muster without offending the
Offendi is, "Go Fish Oberg!" And hearty, "Get lost" would be
appropriate as well. Speaking strictly for mineself.

Oh, and please, yet again, don't forget to apologize as you
leave. Wouldn't wish to have the sour effluvium of skeptibunkies
left behind. At the least, the apology helps remove some of it.
Like the swamp gas of which I writ previously, tongue planted
firmly in cheek of course.

Only this time, it's right there where it oughta be... sticking
out the mouth of this scandalous fanatic. Au revoir. Veider
zayen. Biachiere, a Dios, Asta lavista, Baby, asta luego, chow
baby, a riva derchi.

And leave your badge behind. And now you are supposed to say,
"Badges? Badges? We do'need no estinkin badges!"

Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 16

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 03:08:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:34:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >><snip>

 >>>The basis of my theory is a comparison between the Moon and
 >>>cheese, and pointing out the similarities (colour and shape).
 >>>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >>Poeple have been to the Moon. So have robots. Likewise, people
 >>have been to the features in question in Iran and found them to
 >>be artificial. For your Cheese Theory rhetoric to have any
 >>argumentative validity, then my contention that the Mars face
 >>and the formation in Iran are similar would have to be based off
 >>of a conspiracy theory of some kind. I've made no such
 >>suggestions.

 >>Your cheese spiel is another in an endless parade of examples
 >>equating anything remotely smacking of intelligence on Mars with
 >>'conspiracy theories', regardless of the fact that there is no
 >>connection at all.

 >>=====

 >Hello All:

 >One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
 >kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
 >be hundreds in France alone.


Larry, Joe, List,

Was that Lehmberger cheese?

Josh











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 16

              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:54:17 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:37:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:50:32 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:24:35 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>So why didn't the Captain write some kind of denial at the time
 >>stating that the article didn't accurately reflect his views?

 >Now you are blaming Cernan for somebody else's potential error?
 >Most astronauts long ago despaired of being quoted correctly in
 >the UFO literature (even Gordon Cooper complained about this)
 >and stopped worrying about what was said about them. Borman's
 >experience (see below) was that explaining and complaining was
 >useless. Garry Henderson, the official widely quoted in UFO
 >literature in the 1970s, made the same remark (also quoted
 >below). I think that casting suspicion back on the character who
 >was the subject of the original quotation is not proper.

If a newspaper article is incorrectly quoting a person, or
misleads the readers by partially quoting, I believe it is up to
the person to correct the mistake... no matter how much in
dispair they are over allegedly being misquoted by the press.

I knew and currently know people in the political field who
float quotes and all sorts of things, but if the quote stirs a
controversery, they instantly fall back on the time honored
position of 'well you know the media and they
misquoted/mis-characterized/took my comments out of context and
so forth. The press position is "Well the quote is accurate and
we stand by our reporter....."

Kind of like Corso claiming that Birnes had stroked the book,
and Birnes claiming that he faithfully recorded every word that
vomited out of Corso's mouth. Some would claim its a nice
position to be in...!

 >Stan reports he checked the transcript and asked Cernan
 >directly, back near the time of the publication. The comment I
 >got from Cernan directly in the mid-1980s (and which I did not
 >write down, so I can't use it as a quote or as evidence) was
 >that he felt he was misquoted and didn't want to touch the
 >subject again. I've promised to check the press conference video
 >and transcript and report the findings here, but the NASA PAO is
 >taking a long time to dig them out.

I would be curious about the results of the press conference
video. Although wouldn't it *actually* be film instead of video
where it was that far back?


Cheers,

Robert








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                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:58:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:39:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:40:58 -0600


I'll leave Alfred with the last word on this thread.











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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:29:55 +1100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:52:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:00:14 -0000

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:20:43 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

Joe this is a much better argument you are now making and one I
feel does you better justice. The two year old who is nearly
three and I was pulled up for saying she was two by her, asked
me why we were e-mailing each other about a face on Mars and
what was wrong with the moon not being made of cheese? Fair
enough questions from a nearly three year old.

In my limited way I tried to explained to her that we adults
didn't really know all that much about the history of Humankind
on Earth as much of our history here on Earth defeated our
understanding. Records of the last 4000 years were sketchy at
best and often incomplete. The history of Humankind 600,000
years before that is even more of a mystery to us. The purpose
of us e-mailing each other was to talk about these strange
mysterious things and to try and make scene of them.

"Ok" She said, "but so long you are all nice to each other and
play fair, but I still think the moon is made of cheese."

Arr the world is so simple at times for a nearly three year-old
child.

 >>>I appreciate that Mac's theory is better researched than my own,
 >>>but it comes down to the same basis, scientific or not.

 >>Mac wasn't giving a theory; he was making an observation.

 ><snip>

 >I think that I am perhaps being unreasonable here, and I
 >genuinely apologise for that.

No apology necessary.

 >I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a (in my opinion,
 >remote) possibility that the structure on Mars is
 >artificial.

 >I also accept that Mac has invested serious effort in trying to
 >demonstrate this possibility.

He does put a lot of hours and work into research and it shows
in his web site and written articles as with many others here.

 >Where I draw the line is when assumptions are made and
 >conclusions drawn (or actually inferred implicitly rather than
 >explicitly) which are based purely on observational,
 >speculative, or subjective data.

Fair enough. I can see you point here.

 >This type of speculation does no credit to Mac (or indeed to
 >JPL), and only serves to detract from the perfectly valid work
 >(including speculative work). I cannot see the similarities that
 >Mac sees between the Mars formation and the Iranian formation.
 >There is dimensional information about the Mars formation, but
 >none that I have yet seen about the Iranian formation.

Credit due were credit is due, I take my hat off too JPL for
letting us have such wonderful images of the site, I think it is
very brave of them and I for one respect them for this and I
make sure I don't go off the handle with way way out speculation
or theories. Or at least I try very hard not too.

Mac hasn't done himself or JPL any discredit as far as I can
see. The site in Iran could serve as a guide line for looking
into what is on Mars. It is as we all know artificially made,
how it was made and why? could help researchers asking questions
surrounding the face on Mars.

 >On the same theme, the JPL article at:

 >http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm

 >describing a route to the summit of the feature without accurate
 >(in terms of resolution) vertical scale information is absurd.

 >I am quite prepared to accept errors based on misunderstanding
 >of the technology involved in the case of amateurs, but it does
 >seem bizarre to me that JPL should speculate based on incomplete
 >information, eg to go so far as to describe a route from the
 >base of the feature to its summit without reasonably accurate
 >elevation data.

So I'm not the only one wondering about that, I thought they
were just showing a fault line they thought was responsible for
the side of the mound's collapse.

The collapse by the way is very simular to the collapse of the
sides of pyramids in Egypt, not at all like a natural collapse.
Even if it was the result of volcanic activity, it should have a
large creator in the middle of it. It may not be a carved face,
but it sure isn't like any thing natural I have ever seen.

 >I don't want to be seen as an apologist for JPL, but the only
 >logical reasons as I see it for their position on this is as
 >follows:

 >1. They have a limited budget.

 >2. Because of [1], they need to apply resources to maximise
 >return (in terms of understanding of Martian geology) on every
 >mission.

 >3. JPL (like myself) regard the structure as most probably a
 >natural abheration, not typical of Martian geology, and
 >therefore not likely to improve our knowledge in this field.

 >4. JPL have encountered extreme pressure to focus on the feature
 >for future missions, partly through the efforts of Mac and
 >people with a similar point of view, in conflict with their
 >objectives.

 >5. Mac uses highly speculative and/or loosely worded statements
 >intended to be used as justifications for further resource
 >allocation to this feature.

 >6. JPL decided to respond in kind with highly speculative,
 >and/or loosely worded statements.

 >If we take most of the speculation out of it, what are we left
 >with?

 >1. A rock formation that probably resembles a human face is
 >present on Mars.

 >2. It is unknown whether the formation is natural or artificial.

 >3. The probability is that the formation is natural, based on
 >the fact that naturally occurring face-like formations on a
 >smaller scale are known to exist.

 >4, (To my knowledge) there are no artificial structures of
 >similar scale representing a human face.

 >Points 1 and 2 above are beyond question. Point 3 can be
 >regarded as speculative, but it has a basis in statistics and
 >experiential data. Point 4 is purely subjective, but I would
 >challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

 >If we go a step further and take all of the
 >speculation/subjectivity out, we are left with only points 1 and
 >2.

 >At the end of the day, I fail to see the relevance of the
 >Iranian formation to points 1 or 2.

 >It is, however, related to point 4. As this point is speculative
 >and/or subjective, they cancel each other out. Mac sees a
 >similarity, I don't. Lan (for example) sees a similarity,
 >someone else doesn't. Ultimately, it is of zero value, and adds
 >nothing to our knowledge.

 >All that we can do to progress our understanding is to study the
 >actual feature further. I am sure that this will be done, but it
 >will be subject to prioritisation, and it seems to me that the
 >chances of discovering the remains of microbial life, or the
 >availability of water on Mars override application of resource
 >to the feature, based on probability of meaningful results.

The discovery of microbiological life and water on Mars is a
foregone conclusion to me. It is not logical, and may even be a
limited form of thinking, to speculate that life can only exist
on Earth. To think in this way does, to me, defeat the meaning
of life at its core.

We are not the centre of existence, just a small part of it. I
long for the day we leave such primitive thinking behind us and
join the rest of the Universe.

 >I am sorry if I offended anyone with my disregard for the value
 >of speculation (other than in small doses), but I hope that you
 >can understand why I hold this point of view.

I wasn't offended Joe, I think you really brought forth a great
argument here and it shows you have much character. This whole
speculation thing has, however, hit a raw nerve with me as I
believe/think much of what we are forced to believe and are
taught in schools, College, etc., is based on nothing more than
speculation. This really gets under my skin. How can someone
with a sh_t load of degrees turns around and say life can only
exist here on Earth which in turn is really nothing more than
sheer speculation and poor speculation at that? So, I was a
little put-off with the theme of your original post, Joe, which
at first had me running for a soapbox so I could tell you off
good and proper. I just don't see anything wrong with Mac
speculating about what he does and I can see merit in a lot of
what he speculates about.

So as far as I can see it, if these so-called 'great scientists'
etc., can speculate wildly, why nnot we? At least we don't rule
out entirely other possibilities or say "this is what you must
believe".

Not that I'm targeting you, Joe, nor am I directing any anger
toward you or blaming you for any of this. You just hit a nerve
of an on-going argument I have in relation to what we are made
to believe. Seems that scientists can speculate on just about
anything and we must believe it, but if I, or Mac, or Larry or
anyone else here, starts putting forth speculative
ideas/theories then we are taken to the cleaners over it. This
as you can see I think this is not right and does at times have
me running for a soapbox to voice my humble opinion.

 >At least a two-year old drew some entertainment value from my
 >Cheese theory!

The little one learnt about your post - due to the fact that
being dyslexic means I have to use programs that put written
text into English - is that if I want to avoid headaches and
misunderstandings. Little Miss big ears over-heard the cheese
and moon words and just had to know more. It was good in a way,
as it started her thinking about matters outside her little
Universe and she learnt a few new words along the way. On the
down side, she started asking too many questions <LOL>, which
her Mum said I had to now answer. It was about this time I
started cursing you, Joe. Well not really... I don't mind her
asking questions even if they are hard for me to answer, but if
there was anyone that got entrainment value out of all of this
it was her Mother - who was just about rolling around on the
floor with laugher, listening to me trying to answer her
daughter's many questions.

It was great fun though and could even be described as one of
those KODAK moments in one's life.



Cheer Chris. (Tophar)

To speculate is mere speculation, speculatively speaking of
course....










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   Dec > Dec 16

                         George O'Leary and Ufology

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:23:40 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:00:33 -0500
Subject: George O'Leary and Ufology


Errol, List, all -

I am struck by the reaction to George O'Leary's resume and the
response made by Notre Dame during the last few days. For those
who don't know, O'Leary was hired as the new head coach on
Monday (or maybe Sunday) and resigned late on Thursday. The
reason? He inflated his resume, suggesting that he had lettered
three times in college and that he had a master's degree.

Now, as I understand it, he did play some college ball, but not
enough to have lettered. He did take graduate level classes, but
never received the degree. He inflated his resume to make
himself more attractive to those recruiting coaches and he made
the alterations some twenty years ago. He just never bothered to
update his resume or change his official biography to reflect
reality. In these later years, as I understand it, he just let
the situation ride rather than attempt to get to the truth.

So, how is this relevant to the UFO world? Well, we find our
ranks filled with people who have lied to us and we continue to
listen to them. There are those who have misrepresented their
educational or occupational backgrounds, and we say, "Everyone
does it." There are those who have lied about their military
service and we just ignore it, suggesting the government has
altered their records to discredit them. We find ourselves
listening to those who have spent time in jail for child
molestation, fraud or grand theft auto, yet we flock to their
lectures and repeat the nonsense they tell us, overlooking the
fact that their criminal backgrounds would disqualify them from
any legitimate academic pursuit. We listen because they say what
we want to hear.

We clamor for acceptance in the worlds of science and
journalism, yet we ignore the evidence that we don't want to
hear, and quote those who should have been discredited. Is there
anything that these people could tell us that we would want to
hear or that we couldn't learn from other, better sources? And,
if they have lied about their background, their education,
military service, or occupation, then what makes us think they
wouldn't lie about their "insider" status or the information
they possess? Shouldn't we ignore them? Shouldn't we demand that
they provide answers to questions rather than dodging them?

Or, better yet, shouldn't we reject them, just as Notre Dame has
rejected O'Leary, because to do less discredits all of us? Here
was a man who hadn't really lied about his experience, as near
as I can tell, for something like the last twenty years. He just
let the lies float out there. There were fairly innocuous lies
and his coaching experience over the last twenty years certainly
rendered them moot, but Notre Dame choose to fire him. In
Ufology, we probably would have elevated him to the status of a
near god.

Or, let's take the example of former Chief of Naval Operations,
Admiral Jeremy "Mike" Boodra, who was accused of wearing two
small "V" devices on ribbons. Investigation suggested that he
was wearing the devices that he didn't deserve, based on a
review of his military service. It was similar to inflating his
resume and there were those who believed he should resign for
the good of the service.

Personally, and as a military officer, I can understand how he
might believe he was eligible to wear the "V" devices and then
learn later that he was not. When he learned the truth, he
should have removed them and apologized for the mistake. Others
saw something more sinister in this... Boorda eventually
committed suicide, though I doubt this was the reason. The
point, however, is the disgrace the man felt and the reaction of
others to this. Boorda was condemned for the action. In Ufology,
we would have complained that the government had altered his
records to make him look bad.

My point here is that we see how those in other fields of
endeavor are treated. They tell little lies, and they are fired
or vilified in the media. In Ufology, we invent excuses to
ignore the lies and the deceit. The records were altered, the
man (I thought about using the generic 'person' here, but then
could think of no women who had gone to the lengths of the men
to inflate their personal records, lied about their education or
their jobs and who had been exposed at some point), rather than
quietly bowing out, begins to attack others, accusing them of
everything from being a government agent, to being a liar
themselves.

I have refrained from naming names here, but I think we all can
think of those who fit into this category. Men who were in jail
at one point, but now lecture around the world, men who have
lied about their jobs, but still find an audience who ignore
that truth, men who barely finished high school who talk of
advanced degrees but who can provide no evidence for them, and
men who suggest they were on the "inside" of the military
investigations of UFOs, but whose records suggest rather mundane
military careers, if they ever served at all.

The real point is that if we ever hope to gain the respect of
those outside the field, we should look at the lesson offered by
Notre Dame. As soon as they realized that O'Leary's record was
not what he claimed, he was fired. When we learn the truth, we
should stop supporting those who have lied to us no matter how
appealing their story, how exciting their data, or how much we
wish it to be true. To do otherwise is to expose ourselves to
the criticism that we don't self police and we are a field that
has more than our share of frauds, charlatans, and liars and
that we have no respect for the truth. Not only will such
criticism be deserved, we will never gain the respect we desire
and we will be forever doomed to failure.


KRandle









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 16

                 Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:11:42 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:23:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:58:31 -0600


 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:40:58 -0600


 >I'll leave Alfred with the last word on this thread.

Dear JimO,

May I modify your last sentence, which actually was the last
word(s) on this thread?

"I'll leave. And I apologise for the offence and name calling."

JimMo









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   Dec > Dec 16

                  Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:42:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:58:31 -0600

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:40:58 -0600

 >I'll leave Alfred with the last word on this thread.


...Then don't answer _this_!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 16

                   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:41:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:35:45 -0500
Subject: Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Ledger


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:23:40 EST
 >Subject: George O'Leary and Ufology
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Errol, List, all -

 >I am struck by the reaction to George O'Leary's resume and the
 >response made by Notre Dame during the last few days. For those
 >who don't know, O'Leary was hired as the new head coach on
 >Monday (or maybe Sunday) and resigned late on Thursday. The
 >reason? He inflated his resume, suggesting that he had lettered
 >three times in college and that he had a master's degree.

 >Now, as I understand it, he did play some college ball, but not
 >enough to have lettered. He did take graduate level classes, but
 >never received the degree. He inflated his resume to make
 >himself more attractive to those recruiting coaches and he made
 >the alterations some twenty years ago. He just never bothered to
 >update his resume or change his official biography to reflect
 >reality. In these later years, as I understand it, he just let
 >the situation ride rather than attempt to get to the truth.

 >So, how is this relevant to the UFO world? Well, we find our
 >ranks filled with people who have lied to us and we continue to
 >listen to them. There are those who have misrepresented their
 >educational or occupational backgrounds, and we say, "Everyone
 >does it." There are those who have lied about their military
 >service and we just ignore it, suggesting the government has
 >altered their records to discredit them. We find ourselves
 >listening to those who have spent time in jail for child
 >molestation, fraud or grand theft auto, yet we flock to their
 >lectures and repeat the nonsense they tell us, overlooking the
 >fact that their criminal backgrounds would disqualify them from
 >any legitimate academic pursuit. We listen because they say what
 >we want to hear.

 >We clamor for acceptance in the worlds of science and
 >journalism, yet we ignore the evidence that we don't want to
 >hear, and quote those who should have been discredited. Is there
 >anything that these people could tell us that we would want to
 >hear or that we couldn't learn from other, better sources? And,
 >if they have lied about their background, their education,
 >military service, or occupation, then what makes us think they
 >wouldn't lie about their "insider" status or the information
 >they possess? Shouldn't we ignore them? Shouldn't we demand that
 >they provide answers to questions rather than dodging them?

 >Or, better yet, shouldn't we reject them, just as Notre Dame has
 >rejected O'Leary, because to do less discredits all of us? Here
 >was a man who hadn't really lied about his experience, as near
 >as I can tell, for something like the last twenty years. He just
 >let the lies float out there. There were fairly innocuous lies
 >and his coaching experience over the last twenty years certainly
 >rendered them moot, but Notre Dame choose to fire him. In
 >Ufology, we probably would have elevated him to the status of a
 >near god.

 >Or, let's take the example of former Chief of Naval Operations,
 >Admiral Jeremy "Mike" Boodra, who was accused of wearing two
 >small "V" devices on ribbons. Investigation suggested that he
 >was wearing the devices that he didn't deserve, based on a
 >review of his military service. It was similar to inflating his
 >resume and there were those who believed he should resign for
 >the good of the service.

 >Personally, and as a military officer, I can understand how he
 >might believe he was eligible to wear the "V" devices and then
 >learn later that he was not. When he learned the truth, he
 >should have removed them and apologized for the mistake. Others
 >saw something more sinister in this... Boorda eventually
 >committed suicide, though I doubt this was the reason. The
 >point, however, is the disgrace the man felt and the reaction of
 >others to this. Boorda was condemned for the action. In Ufology,
 >we would have complained that the government had altered his
 >records to make him look bad.

 >My point here is that we see how those in other fields of
 >endeavor are treated. They tell little lies, and they are fired
 >or vilified in the media. In Ufology, we invent excuses to
 >ignore the lies and the deceit. The records were altered, the
 >man (I thought about using the generic 'person' here, but then
 >could think of no women who had gone to the lengths of the men
 >to inflate their personal records, lied about their education or
 >their jobs and who had been exposed at some point), rather than
 >quietly bowing out, begins to attack others, accusing them of
 >everything from being a government agent, to being a liar
 >themselves.

 >I have refrained from naming names here, but I think we all can
 >think of those who fit into this category. Men who were in jail
 >at one point, but now lecture around the world, men who have
 >lied about their jobs, but still find an audience who ignore
 >that truth, men who barely finished high school who talk of
 >advanced degrees but who can provide no evidence for them, and
 >men who suggest they were on the "inside" of the military
 >investigations of UFOs, but whose records suggest rather mundane
 >military careers, if they ever served at all.

 >The real point is that if we ever hope to gain the respect of
 >those outside the field, we should look at the lesson offered by
 >Notre Dame. As soon as they realized that O'Leary's record was
 >not what he claimed, he was fired. When we learn the truth, we
 >should stop supporting those who have lied to us no matter how
 >appealing their story, how exciting their data, or how much we
 >wish it to be true. To do otherwise is to expose ourselves to
 >the criticism that we don't self police and we are a field that
 >has more than our share of frauds, charlatans, and liars and
 >that we have no respect for the truth. Not only will such
 >criticism be deserved, we will never gain the respect we desire
 >and we will be forever doomed to failure.

 >KRandle


Hi Kevin,

I'm not much for football - so I guess that will count against
me someday on my resume. However, that failing of mine
notwithstanding, the rest of what you say is bang on.

Sometimes you get plaudits where none are due. Though I am a
private pilot I've had to quash attempts by some magazine
editors and at least one publisher who have attempted to
embellish on my PPL by upgrading me to ATP status. In those few
instance I have been successful. Had I let them slide I would
have been guilty of just what you alluded to in your remarks.

An act of ommission rather than commission is still a lie. I
have fibbed about my weight and my accelerated hair loss
however. Re the latter I have one grandchild who keeps me honest
["Boy you're really getting bald'Papa"]. You can run but you
can't hide.

In any event, well said.

Don Ledger







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   Dec > Dec 16

                    Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:51:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:37:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg? - Oberg


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:38:22 EST
 >Subject: Re: Whither Might Herr Oberg?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

I think I've finally figured out how to make some money off this subject.

Dart-board targets with my face on them?

Personalized toilet paper?

I'll be taking orders at $19.99 per.

Better get in line now, there ought to be a tremendous demand.









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   Dec > Dec 16

              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:53:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:38:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Oberg


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:54:17 EST
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I would be curious about the results of the press conference
 >video. Although wouldn't it *actually* be film instead of video
 >where it was that far back?


Eileeen Hawley at the PAO says they no longer possess either
item, and refered me to the JSC History Office, and to Rice
University which archived the Apollo-era stuff. The hunt
continues.











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   Dec > Dec 16

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:03:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:39:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 03:08:40 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>><snip>

<snip>

 >>Hello All:

 >>One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
 >>kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
 >>be hundreds in France alone.

 >Larry, Joe, List,

 >Was that Lehmberger cheese?

 >Josh

"Lehmberger"... as it turns out, crosses four generations (that
I know about) and is just not that original. My Grandfather was
affectionately called "Stinky" by Dizzy Dean, and I was called
"Cheese" by my fellow candidates in Warrant Officer flight
training for the United States Army... thanks for the nostalgia.
It was like finding a box of old pictures. Thanks, again. <big
smile>


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.











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                 Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:27:03 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:43:06 -0500
Subject: Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:23:40 EST
 >Subject: George O'Leary and Ufology
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Errol, List, all -

 >I am struck by the reaction to George O'Leary's resume and the
 >response made by Notre Dame during the last few days. For those
 >who don't know, O'Leary was hired as the new head coach on
 >Monday (or maybe Sunday) and resigned late on Thursday. The
 >reason? He inflated his resume, suggesting that he had lettered
 >three times in college and that he had a master's degree.

 >Now, as I understand it, he did play some college ball, but not
 >enough to have lettered. He did take graduate level classes, but
 >never received the degree. He inflated his resume to make
 >himself more attractive to those recruiting coaches and he made
 >the alterations some twenty years ago. He just never bothered to
 >update his resume or change his official biography to reflect
 >reality. In these later years, as I understand it, he just let
 >the situation ride rather than attempt to get to the truth.

 >So, how is this relevant to the UFO world? Well, we find our
 >ranks filled with people who have lied to us and we continue to
 >listen to them. There are those who have misrepresented their
 >educational or occupational backgrounds, and we say, "Everyone
 >does it." There are those who have lied about their military
 >service and we just ignore it, suggesting the government has
 >altered their records to discredit them. We find ourselves
 >listening to those who have spent time in jail for child
 >molestation, fraud or grand theft auto, yet we flock to their
 >lectures and repeat the nonsense they tell us, overlooking the
 >fact that their criminal backgrounds would disqualify them from
 >any legitimate academic pursuit. We listen because they say what
 >we want to hear.

<snip>

Dear Kevin, List, Errol,

I would like to respond to your post, but in two voices, mine and
the other (most voluble and vociferous) one, Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt,
if it please the court and Errol.

First my voice... the real one.

Well said. But you know, in this field (I refrain from using the
work 'business' because I've been chided by so doing... although
I meant it in the generic sense... as in 'all this business' and
besides, it is an old Ham Radio term... as in 'fine business')
in this field, people are, in many cases, not professional in
the areas in which they participate in the research. There are
many exceptions, however I believe this to be the rule.

For example, Budd Hopkins is accomplished at what he does, and
well suited for his work, most notably in regressive hypnosis,
and yet he is not a degreed psychologist. Just to use the
example. This does not mean that the researcher is ill-prepared,
merely that to state my point, the research is usually the
avocation, not to metier.

This precludes being taken seriously by many, especially by
main- stream science. And so, perhaps to be accepted in a more
professional manner, they lie.

The other unfortunate justification is that some people really
do believe this to be a business, one to be taken advantage of
in seeking either money or fame... or both.

So the field is ripe for ruin by virtue of the above; that it is
not the vocation, but the avocation of many, and that it is an
opportunity not to become rich or famous necessarily, but to
make a buck two-fifty and gain some notoriety in the process.

The conclusion should be to force mainstream science to embrace
this field of research. And the check is in the mail and 'don't
worry sweetheart, I'm sterile!' Not likely to happen. Not
anytinme soon at least.

As for your suggestion, exposing those who are less than
qualified or who are misrepresenting themselves may be dangerous
in this litigious society.

Now, with Errol's permission, I should answer in the voice of Dr. J.
Ahem!

The stories of that incident in Alabama of my being indicted are
LIES! And I was a general in the army during WWII. In fact I was
the brains behind Ike. I never stole that car, it was a bad rap.
Besides, I was only robbin the register. And I've worn that
scarlet V on my farhead for many, many years. So there!

 >My point here is that we see how those in other fields of

And my point is at the top of my head. So what!?!?

As for my education, well, I _bought and paid for_ every
stinking degree I got. _Every One!_ And it cost me bundle too.
Until I realized that I could get them from the Canal Stree
Society for _free!_ Schmuck that I was.

 >I have refrained from naming names here, but I think we all can

And you better. My consiglieres are straight from my second in
conmand... command, sorry... Dr. Morty, who's member is made
in the Bambini Crime Famiglia. An I got me his uncle, Toto, to do
all my kneecap contracts. Watch it buddy!

As for respect, wit a familglia like mine behind me, wit
consigliere behind me, I got all da respete I need.

Arriva derchi, an I may aks you to retoin dis fava some day. Ma
tu capeesh? Bene. Now shutta uppa ana go write-a anudda book.

Thank you, Kevin, for listening to these voices in my head. But
I more appreciate my own. In truth, all of my Ph.D.'s are from
the Canal Street Factory. And I did pay for them _but_ they cost
me a real bundle. So that makes it OK. When money talks,
everyone listens.


Jim Mortellaro,
Docca Morty and J. Jaime
(Ph.D.'s too numerousto mention)








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   Dec > Dec 16

                             UFO Roundup Update

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:13:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:44:55 -0500
Subject: UFO Roundup Update


I am pleased to be able to give another brief but positive
update on Joseph Trainor, editor of UFO Roundup.

Joe wrote on December 11th to say he had his third and last
post-operative examination with Dr. Morehouse. The doctor said
the left eye is healing well and his vision appears to have
stabilized. The last step for Joe is to pick up his new
prescription lenses, which he plans to do soon.

If all goes to plan Joe should be back with Volume 7 early in
the New Year. I guess we can all be encouraged by the news that
Joseph said he has already begun gathering items for the
premiere.


We would like to take this opportunity to send all readers our
best wishes for Christmas and the coming year.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, and UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:51:52 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:10:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:46:48 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Where I draw the line is when assumptions are made and
 >>conclusions drawn (or actually inferrred implicitly rather than
 >>explicitly) which are based purely on observational,
 >>speculative, or subjective data.

 >It may have seemed to you that Mac was implicitly speculating
 >that the Iranian 'tell' was evidence of the transmission of
 >culture from Mars to Earth or vice versa. But I really don't
 >think that was his intent.

Not at all. Just offering a potential example of a
'Cydonia-like' artificial formation on Earth. The Face on Mars
may or may not be artificial, but if it is then I think having a
lineup of terrestrial "examples" will further our understanding.
It certainly won't hurt.

I've added a new, relevant image to the Cydonian Imperative page
in question:

http://mactonnies.com/imperative25.html

(Carlotto has addressed this, but I don't think it's ever
received the attention it deserves.)

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:33:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:12:36 -0500
Subject: Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Felder


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:23:40 EST
 >Subject: George O'Leary and Ufology
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >The real point is that if we ever hope to gain the respect of
 >those outside the field, we should look at the lesson offered by
 >Notre Dame. As soon as they realized that O'Leary's record was
 >not what he claimed, he was fired. When we learn the truth, we
 >should stop supporting those who have lied to us no matter how
 >appealing their story, how exciting their data, or how much we
 >wish it to be true. To do otherwise is to expose ourselves to
 >the criticism that we don't self police and we are a field that
 >has more than our share of frauds, charlatans, and liars and
 >that we have no respect for the truth. Not only will such
 >criticism be deserved, we will never gain the respect we desire
 >and we will be forever doomed to failure.

 >KRandle

Hi Kevin. Very well said, I applaud you. I have said before that
ufology will never be accepted in the mainstream if it does not
start paying more attention to the company it keeps - by that, I
mean until it starts taking a good, hard look at who is sharing
the podium and making a name for themselves off of the names and
good reputations of 'noted' and respected ufologists.

When a researcher appears as a guest on a show or sits next to
one of these characters in a panel discussion at a convention,
the "dirtbag of the month", to borrow a phrase from Royce
Meyers, is building his reputation by leeching off the good
reputation of the respected ufologist. The dirtbag gains and the
true, hard-working ufologist loses in the public eye.

And I find that quite sad indeed.


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









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   Dec > Dec 17

              Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:20:10 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:03:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' - Gates


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:53:10 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:54:17 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>I would be curious about the results of the press conference
 >>video. Although wouldn't it *actually* be film instead of video
 >>where it was that far back?


 >Eileeen Hawley at the PAO says they no longer possess either
 >item, and refered me to the JSC History Office, and to Rice
 >University which archived the Apollo-era stuff. The hunt
 >continues.

Good luck with the hunt! I would suspect that unless somebody
requested a copy and it was xferred to video, it only exists on
16mm film somewhere.


Cheers,

Robert









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                    Former Harvard Researcher Sanctioned

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:03:19 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:06:28 -0500
Subject: Former Harvard Researcher Sanctioned


Note: Another stroke job by an supposed and alleged top person.
Had this happened in Ufology, the gulliable sheep would have
bleated and dismissed it as part of the evil government plot...


Former Harvard researcher sanctioned for falsifying data


By Jim Geraghty, States News Service, 12/16/2001

ASHINGTON - A former Harvard researcher, now described as one of
the country's top young psychology professors, has been
sanctioned by the federal government for falsifying data while
at Harvard.

The professor, Karen Ruggiero, resigned her post at the
University of Texas at Austin in June, after admitting to having
fabricated experiment results in two studies she conducted while
she was an assistant professor at Harvard from 1996 to 2000. The
studies were partially funded with federal money.

Ruggiero entered a "voluntary exclusion agreement" with
Harvard and the US Public Health Service that will bar her from
applying for any government grants, research, or work for five
years.

"Her career is probably gone, or it certainly is for a number of
years," said Chris Pascal, the director of the Office of
Research Integrity at the Health and Human Services Department,
which oversees the public health service.

Reached by phone in Austin, Ruggiero declined comment.

The work of Ruggiero, whom the Austin American-Statesman
described as "one of the most promising young psychology
professors in the country," focused on the attitudes of women
and other groups about discrimination.

Her work has been cited frequently by other researchers. A 1995
paper, for example, "Coping with Discrimination - How
Disadvantaged Group Members Perceive the Discrimination That
Confronts Them," has been cited in more than 50 psychology
studies, according to the Social Studies Citation Index.

Two of her studies have qualified for grants at the National
Institutes of Health.

One, "Less pain and more to gain: Why high-status group members
blame their failure on discrimination," was published in the
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

The other, "Why did I get a 'D'? The Effects of Social
Comparisons on Women's Attributions to Discrimination" was
published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

Ruggiero was found to have fabricated three experiments in the
first article and two in the second.

Ruggiero cited the research for those papers in a National
Institutes of Health, in an application for a Individual
National Service Award. She also submitted documents citing the
falsified research in a Harvard School of Public Health grant
application to the Institutes, and in grant applications to the
National Science Foundation.

The investigation began when David Marx, Ruggiero's former
student, colleague, and a coauthor on the studies, asked to see
the notes she had kept for one of the studies. She refused, and
Marx reported the refusal to Harvard.

Harvard began an investigation, and in June, Ruggiero admitted
to having used "invalid data" in the studies. In letters to the
journals asking that the studies be removed from the scientific
record, Ruggiero took sole responsibility, but gave neither her
methods nor ner motive. She resigned from the University of
Texas on June 22.

The Office of Research Integrity is trying to put together a
comprehensive study of why some researchers falsify, fudge, or
plagiarize data.

"People have anecdotes, but we're trying to do science on
science in order to understand why these things happen," Pascal
said. "From everything I've heard, Dr. Ruggiero is a very smart
person. She didn't need to cut corners."

Andrea Shen, a Harvard spokeswoman, said in a statement that the
sanction of Ruggiero was "appropriate" and that it "underscored
the commitment all researchers must make to meeting the highest
standards of integrity in their work."

"If you look at Harvard, it has a lot of reported cases, but
that's not necessarily bad," Pascal said. "Harvard takes this
stuff very seriously, and has put a lot of resources into
investigating misconduct."

The Office of Research Integrity has reviewed its reports of
institutions that have reported misconduct, and has concluded
that the number of misconduct reports is generally proportional
to the funding levels. Institutions with the most grants report
the most misconduct - and Harvard is one of the nation's leaders
in federal research grants.

"It gets a large number of grants, it's a competitive place, and
things happen," Pascal said.

This story ran on page A17 of the Boston Globe on 12/16/2001.









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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:44:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:09:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:03:42 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 03:08:40 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>>><snip>

 ><snip>

 >>>Hello All:

 >>>One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
 >>>kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
 >>>be hundreds in France alone.

 >>Larry, Joe, List,

 >>Was that Lehmberger cheese?

 >>Josh

 >"Lehmberger"... as it turns out, crosses four generations (that
 >I know about) and is just not that original. My Grandfather was
 >affectionately called "Stinky" by Dizzy Dean, and I was called
 >"Cheese" by my fellow candidates in Warrant Officer flight
 >training for the United States Army... thanks for the nostalgia.
 >It was like finding a box of old pictures. Thanks, again. <big
 >smile>


So that was it. Perhaps there was a stink when I too went to
USArmy Secondary Flight School down there in the 'My Cousin
Vinny' southern Alabama piece of Dixie between Ozark and
Enterprise, y'all. Fort Rucker, with Daleville at its gate. Lots
and lots of Grits. Too shy to nuzzle up to that lovely blonde
waitress in Ozark. Lehmberger, I have all kinds of memories from
the home of George Wallace.

On top of it all, after Vietnam, I was sent back there as an
instructor. 'My Cousin Vinny' - Part Two. Deep in the heart of
Dixie. Oh, the memories. (deep smile and smirk)


Josh










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                   Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:41:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:14:04 -0500
Subject: Re: George O'Leary and Ufology - Velez


 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:41:38 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: George O'Leary and Ufology

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:23:40 EST
 >>Subject: George O'Leary and Ufology
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>The real point is that if we ever hope to gain the respect of
 >>those outside the field, we should look at the lesson offered by
 >>Notre Dame. As soon as they realized that O'Leary's record was
 >>not what he claimed, he was fired. When we learn the truth, we
 >>should stop supporting those who have lied to us no matter how
 >>appealing their story, how exciting their data, or how much we
 >>wish it to be true. To do otherwise is to expose ourselves to
 >>the criticism that we don't self police and we are a field that
 >>has more than our share of frauds, charlatans, and liars and
 >>that we have no respect for the truth. Not only will such
 >>criticism be deserved, we will never gain the respect we desire
 >>and we will be forever doomed to failure.

 >Hi Kevin,

 >I'm not much for football - so I guess that will count against
 >me someday on my resume. However, that failing of mine
 >notwithstanding, the rest of what you say is bang on.

 >Sometimes you get plaudits where none are due. Though I am a
 >private pilot I've had to quash attempts by some magazine
 >editors and at least one publisher who have attempted to
 >embellish on my PPL by upgrading me to ATP status. In those few
 >instance I have been successful. Had I let them slide I would
 >have been guilty of just what you alluded to in your remarks.
 >
 >An act of ommission rather than commission is still a lie. I
 >have fibbed about my weight and my accelerated hair loss
 >however. Re the latter I have one grandchild who keeps me honest
 >["Boy you're really getting bald'Papa"]. You can run but you
 >can't hide.

 >In any event, well said.

Hiya Don, Kevin, All,

I just wanted to add my 'ditto' to Don's "Well said." I am
surprised however, that in consideration of the fact that
although many folks agree that a more 'formal'
structure/organization/group is desperately needed in ufology,
appeals for ufologists to sign-on to something like the code of
ethics and standards that was proposed by the Brit's - not so very
long ago - never seems to receive popular support, or very many
subscribers among 'established' UFO researchers.

We have to start somewhere. I think it would be a huge step
forward if, rather than paying lip service to the 'concept' of a
code of ethics and standards, (which, bottom-line, is what is
being alluded to here) that more ufologists simply sign-on to,
and abide by, the ones that already exist.

When an 'appropriate' situation arose, my mother used to quote
an old saying to me in Spanish: "A ship that never leaves port,
never arrives at its destination." Same goes for ufology and
ufologists. Everybody seems to know exactly what needs to be
done. It just needs to actually _be_done!  ;)


Regards,

John Velez










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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.17.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:56:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:15:56 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.17.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

December 17, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
12.17.01


Signs of Water on Mars Create Hope of Great Discovery
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_hydrogen_011214.ht=
ml

Distant Wanderers: The Search for Planets Beyond the Solar System
http://www.space.com/spacelibrary/books/library_dorminey_011214.html

Seeking Contact: Carl Sagan Center To Focus On Life In The Universe
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/sagan_seti_011213.html

Riot of Colors on Volcanic Moon Io
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/12/10/jupiter.io.images.ap/index.html

Wireless Makes Waves 100 Years On
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/12/marconi/index.html

____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

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=A9 The Eras Project, 2001










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   Dec > Dec 17

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:23:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:17:48 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 337 -  13 DECEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Italian Sightings Total 600 In 2001
- Fourth Book by Lissoni, This Year
- C.I.S.U. Headquarters Move


           Italian Sightings Total 600 In 2001

With the 13 cases gathered for the month of November, the Year
2001 sees the number of presumed UFO sightings in Italy
surpassing the 600-number mark, a piece of data which is twice
the normal average for our country.

Following the publication of the monthly listings of the entire
2001 Italian UFO case log heretofore gathered by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, the summary table and the graph of the
monthly statistics up to and including all of November are now
available on the C.I.S.U. Internet website
(http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi2001.htm).

[Collaboration by Giorgio Abraini.]


               Fourth Book by Lissoni, This Year

Arriving just in time for Year-End 2001 is the fourth UFO book
penned this year by Alfredo Lissoni (something which amounts to
a veritable record in Italian biblio-ufological annals).

It actually is the reissue of the short volume, "L'altra faccia
degli UFO" ("The Other Side of UFOs"), originally published at
the end of 2000 with a circulation that became immediately
exhausted, and now reappearing in a revised and expanded version
from Macro Edizioni of Cesena under the title: "Altri UFO  -
Avvistamenti extraterrestri nei paesi islamici e nelle antiche
tradizioni religiose" ("The Other UFOs  - Extraterrestrial
Sightings in Islamic Countries and in the Ancient Religious
Traditions") (307 pages; 15 Euro).

[Report by Maurizio Morini.]


           C.I.S.U. Headquarters Move

As duly reported, taking place over these two year-end weeks is
the scheduled relocation of the Turin headquarters of the
Italian Center for UFO Studies, which houses its central
archives, administrative headquarters and editorial operations
for C.I.S.U. publications.

Thus, the Year 2001 sees the closing of the historic offices at
Via Briccarello 6, which were originally leased in July 1979 as
the Turin-based editorial offices for CUN magazine "Notiziario
UFO", and subsequently transformed into the administrative
office headquarters and the archives initially for the Centro
Ufologico Nazionale (National Ufological Center, CUN) , then for
the Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici (Italian Center for UFO
Studies, CISU).

The new headquarters, which see a quadrupling in the space
available, will allow for an improved layout and management of
the Association's library and archives which, in addition to
being the largest in existence in Italy, represent one of the
greatest troves of ufological material in Europe.

Due to the relocation, these coming weeks may cause some
glitches in postings, administrative office operations, and
weekly headquarters goings-on.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino.]

Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini,
Gian Paolo Grassino and Maurizio Morini


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:

- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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   Dec > Dec 17

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:59:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:41:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:44:26 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:03:42 -0600

 >>>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 03:08:40 +0100
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:38:38 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars

 >>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:33:48 -0800 (PST)
 >>>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:01:15 -0000

 >>>>><snip>

 >><snip>

 >>>>Hello All:

 >>>>One flaw in Joe's cheese theory is that he did not specify which
 >>>>kind of cheese! Its not like there are just 3 or 4, there must
 >>>>be hundreds in France alone.

 >>>Larry, Joe, List,

 >>>Was that Lehmberger cheese?

 >>>Josh

 >>"Lehmberger"... as it turns out, crosses four generations (that
 >>I know about) and is just not that original. My Grandfather was
 >>affectionately called "Stinky" by Dizzy Dean, and I was called
 >>"Cheese" by my fellow candidates in Warrant Officer flight
 >>training for the United States Army... thanks for the nostalgia.
 >>It was like finding a box of old pictures. Thanks, again. <big
 >>smile>

 >So that was it. Perhaps there was a stink when I too went to
 >USArmy Secondary Flight School down there in the 'My Cousin
 >Vinny' southern Alabama piece of Dixie between Ozark and
 >Enterprise, y'all. Fort Rucker, with Daleville at its gate. Lots
 >and lots of Grits. Too shy to nuzzle up to that lovely blonde
 >waitress in Ozark. Lehmberger, I have all kinds of memories from
 >the home of George Wallace.

Yes, Mr. Goldstain (...doesn't _that_ paint a lovely picture),
and perhaps you did a little too much nuzzling but not enough
noodling while you were here. Eh? As an IP, SIP, and IFE
assigned to both attack and utility branches of the aviation
schoolhouse, I noticed that it was often that the itinerant
student was a little more concerned about the white sands of
Panama City Beach than his -10 Emergency Procedures. How was it
with you? I'm betting you had sand in your flight school
pockets. How say you?

 >On top of it all, after Vietnam, I was sent back there as an
 >instructor. 'My Cousin Vinny' - Part Two. Deep in the heart of
 >Dixie. Oh, the memories. (deep smile and smirk)

Yeah. I did some checking. Could it be that you're still wanted
for some of those memories? They don't cotton to deadbeat dads
down in these parts... As it is? I don't remember you (no
daughters...). I joined the Army in 1969. Mineral Wells Texas
was followed by a very bare Fort Rucker... I was in Germany most
of the time after 'Nam, 101st Airborne in Kentucky, Korea, and
Fort Rucker... I was the Senior TAC at the Army's only Warrant
Officer Candidate School for awhile...

Fort Rucker. Yes. I'm out the Enterprise gate a few miles, this
moment. It's a charming little spot where I tilt my head back,
look into an early morning sky, and see real UFOs... If you're
down this way, Mr. Gallstone, and can call me by my real name
(?)... maybe I'll show them to you... again, thanks for the
memories <G>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                 Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:06:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:47:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation' -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:20:10 EST
 >Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:53:10 -0600

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:54:17 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Gene Cernan's Alleged UFO 'Quotation'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>I would be curious about the results of the press conference
 >>>video. Although wouldn't it *actually* be film instead of video
 >>>where it was that far back?

 >>Eileeen Hawley at the PAO says they no longer possess either
 >>item, and refered me to the JSC History Office, and to Rice
 >>University which archived the Apollo-era stuff. The hunt
 >>continues.

 >Good luck with the hunt! I would suspect that unless somebody
 >requested a copy and it was xferred to video, it only exists on
 >16mm film somewhere.

A moot exercise, even if the outcome favors an alleged
skeptibunky position, and especially if it favors an alleged
believer position... It the outcome favors the SB, then it is a
straw argument to facilitate the complacent and continuing
ridicule of the rest of ufology; if it favors the B, then it is
another isolated target item to be discredited, belittled, and
demeaned as the pure invention of a cognitively inferior fringe.

Mr. Oberg can continue to appear diligent and resolute,
regardless, as he grinds an axe of obvious obfuscation, his
findings rendered meaningless, suspect, and facile whatever they
come to be. He'll have it his way, whatever is found out. He
hones an axe, you see...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 17

                  Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:48:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:50:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337 - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:23:20 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
 >Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 337

 >ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

 >ISSUE NO. 337 -  13 DECEMBER 2001

 >by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
 >(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

 >Contents:

 >- Italian Sightings Total 600 In 2001
 >- Fourth Book by Lissoni, This Year
 >- C.I.S.U. Headquarters Move

Thanks to Edoardo and his colleagues for making these English
translations available to us. Since UFO research appears to be
moribund in the U.S., it is good to know that activities
continue elsewhere.

TV2 in France produced a documentary last summer that was aired
in September after premiering in the French Senate. It is far
superior to 95% of the dreck that continues to appear on A&E,
Discovery, etc., in the U.S.

Dick Hall









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   Dec > Dec 18

                           Saucers Full Of Secrets

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:05:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:05:14 -0500
Subject: Saucers Full Of Secrets

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/cover/cover.html

COVER STORY
by Dan Gilgoff
Dec. 14-20, 2001


SAUCERS FULL OF SECRETS

Decades later, Washington's fabled UFO invasion has witnesses,
skeptics, and true believers asking: "Where were you in '52?"

PAULA: What happened, Jeff?

JEFF: I saw a flying saucer.

PAULA: A saucer? You mean the kind from up there?

JEFF: Yeah, or its counterpart. It was shaped like a huge cigar.
Dan saw it, too. When it passed over, the whole compartment
lighted up with a blinding glare. Then there was a tremendous
wind that practically knocked us off our course.

PAULA: Well, did you report it?

JEFF: Yeah, radioed in immediately and they said, 'Well keep it
quiet until you land.' Then, as soon as we landed, big Army
brass grabbed us and made us swear to secrecy about the whole
thing. Oh, it burns me up. These things have been seen for
years. They're here, it's a fact. And the public oughta know
about it.

PAULA: There must be something more you can do about it.

JEFF: Oh no, there isn't. Oh, but what's the point of making a
fuss? Last night, I saw a flying object that couldn't possibly
have been from this planet. But I can't say a word. I'm muzzled
by Army brass! I can't even admit I saw the thing!

                           --Plan 9 From Outer Space, 1959

Howard Cocklin, assistant chief of Washington National Airport's
control tower, was working the graveyard shift on Saturday
night, July 19, 1952. Just after he settled into a chair behind
a radarscope, an unidentified white blip blinked onto his
screen.

"We were tracking a flight that had just taken off, when all of
a sudden, we had another target show up," says Cocklin, now 82
years old and living in Fairfax, Va. "It was very erratic. It
went left and right. We knew it wasn't an airplane, because a
plane flies in one direction. But it was a strong signal, just
like an airplane. Then a man named Harry Barnes in the Air Route
Traffic Control [ARTC] center down below called the control
tower. He wanted to know if we had seen what he saw, whatever it
was."

Three days later, the muddled headline "Radar Spots Air Mystery
Objects Here" ran in three decks across the front page of the
Washington Post. Controllers at National Airport, the article
reported, had picked up a gaggle of unidentified flying
objects - "perhaps a new type of 'flying saucer'" - on radar over
the weekend.

The article supplied the opening paragraphs to the story of
history's biggest UFO flap. More than 500 UFO-sighting reports
were reported to the U.S. Air Force that July, still a record.
Pulp magazines had long lavished pages on the subject, but the
Washington sightings stole front-page headline space from the
1952 Democratic National Convention and had President Harry
Truman hounding the Air Force for an explanation. The Washington
invasion, as it's referred to in the UFO literature, had the CIA
wringing its hands over how to squelch the public hysteria.

UFO sightings had been steadily mounting since World War II,
when the atmosphere was clogged with more Earthling-manned
vehicles than ever before, but the Washington sightings marked a
seismic shift in UFO history. And not for the reason that the
Post reported: "For the first time...the objects were picked up
by radar." That had happened before.

But the Post didn't report that, as morning broke on July 20,
the U.S. Air Force sent an F-94 fighter jet to intercept the
airborne objects, which had been tracked in the restricted
airspace over the White House and the U.S. Capitol. Or that at
one point that night three separate radars, two at National and
another at Andrews Air Force Base 10 miles east, simultaneously
picked up the same unidentified targets before they vanished. Or
that, for one of the first times ever, a batch of unidentified
radar blips had been complemented by a spate of ground reports
of strange lights in the sky.

Before calling Cocklin in the tower that night, Barnes,
National's senior ARTC controller, had a technician inspect the
radar equipment at ARTC for glitches. The tech could find
nothing wrong.

Around 1 o'clock in the morning, an ARTC controller radioed
Capital Airlines Flight 807, which had just taken off, to ask
about any suspicious lights in the air around it. A moment
later, 17-year veteran pilot Casey Pierman's voice roared
through the radio: "There's one - off to the right - and there it
goes." And a controller on the ground watched the blip to the
right of the airplane's blip disappear.

Pierman reported a half-dozen more lights in the next 14
minutes, describing them as "like falling stars without tails."
All of them corresponded to blips on the ARTC radarscopes. Some
of the lights, he said, moved faster than shooting stars. Every
time Pierman "reported that the light streaked off at high
speed," Barnes wrote in an article for a New York newspaper a few
days later, "it disappeared on our scope."

Over at Andrews, Air Force personnel were spotting lights in the
sky. "I saw a strong light South of Andrews AFB traveling from
east to west at a terrific rate of speed," around 2 o' clock in
the morning, wrote Sgt. Charles T. Davenport in an Air Force
report dated July 21, 1952. "The light traveled from Andrews to
approximately the Potomac River in about 5 to 15 seconds....Its
color was orange red. Later on we spotted what seemed to be a
star northwest of the field. It was very bright but not the same
color. This was a bluish silver. It was very erratic in motion,
it moved from side to side. Three times I saw a red object leave
the silver object at a high rate of speed and move east out of
sight."

Davenport saw a second string of strange lights that night; that
sighting ended near 3:30 a.m., about a half-hour before a
commercial pilot closing in on National from the south called
the control tower to report a light off his left wing. The
object showed on the scopes both at the tower and at ARTC, where
a half-lit hall glowed with lavender from all the radars. When
the pilot gave word that the light was trailing off, the
corresponding blips faded.

The runways at Washington's Bolling Air Force Base were
undergoing repairs, so an F-94 left New Castle Air Force Base in
Delaware at dawn to investigate the capital's airspace. The Air
Force Command Post had been stonewalling ARTC's requests for
help all night, according to a controller's Air Force report.

In a 3 a.m. phone call, a combat officer at Air Force Command
"said that all the information was being forwarded to higher
authority and would not discuss it any further," wrote a
controller. "I insisted I wanted to know if it was being
forwarded tonight and he said yes, but would not give me any
hint as to what was being done about all these things flying
around Washington."

By the time the F-94 left the runway, the targets had already
vanished from the radarscopes. After a few minutes of searching,
the jet hooked a U-turn and went home.

Barnes plotted out Saturday night's events in an article he
penned for the New York World-Telegram and Sun, which ran on the
same morning as the Post's account. "For six hours on the
morning of the 20th of July there were at least 10
unidentifiable objects moving above Washington," he wrote. "I
can safely deduce that they performed gyrations which no known
aircraft could perform. By this I mean that our scope showed
that they could make right angle turns and complete reversals of
flight....[We] could detect no pattern to the movement of these
objects. However, they did seem to become most active around the
planes we saw on the scope."

The Air Force had already been investigating UFOs for five years
by the time of the summer of '52 sightings. Capt. Edward
Ruppelt, the recently appointed head of that investigation - code
named Project Blue Book and based at Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base in Dayton, Ohio - landed in Washington at 10 o'clock in the
morning on July 20 on a previously scheduled visit and stumbled
across news of the sightings in the morning paper. The press had
scooped Air Force intelligence.

By late afternoon, after a day of briefings and meetings and
staving off the press at the Pentagon, Ruppelt was anxious to
crack the weekend mystery. He planned to visit National and
Andrews, the airline offices, and the Weather Bureau.

But the Pentagon wouldn't give him a staff car; its finance
office suggested riding in cabs and charging his expense
account. Ruppelt's $9 per diem, designated for a hotel room and
meals, wouldn't begin to cover a long night's worth of cab
fares. He caught the next flight back to Dayton.

When asked what he thought was behind the blips on his
radarscope that night, Cocklin gives a long chuckle that putters
into a dry, staccato cough. "At the time, I thought it was
something alien," he says. "I still do."

Exactly one week later, on the night of July 26, several pilots
flying over the D.C. area spied peculiar airborne lights, like a
string of five glowing orange-and-white objects. A B-29 Air
Force pilot cruising at nearly 10,000 feet eyed "three amber
edged white flashing objects," according to an Air Force report
dated July 31, 1952. "Traveling at approximately speed of sound
each caused [a] yellowish trail. First object moved across sky
in horseshoe path; second appeared to drop vertically; and the
movement of the third not identifiable."

On the ground, a sergeant at Andrews saw "a bluish white light
move...at an incredible rate of speed," according to an Air
Force report. "About one minute later...I saw the same kind of
light. These lights did not have the characteristics of shooting
stars. There was no trails and [they] seemed to go out rather
than disappear, and traveled faster than any shooting star I have
ever seen."

At exactly the same time, 10:23 p.m., an Air Force report shows,
a sergeant on a radarscope at Andrews noted "a great many
targets....We observed targets following very erratic courses,
sometimes appearing to stop, then reverse course, accelerating
momentarily, and then slowing down....The biggest problem
appeared to be the large No. of targets present which made it
difficult to have any definite targets singled out for
checking."

Al Chop, Blue Book's civilian PR man, was in bed with his wife
at their Alexandria, Va., home when the telephone rang just
before midnight on July 26. A Civil Aeronautics Administration
(CAA) official from National's ARTC room was on the line. "He
told me they were getting UFOs on the radar and that they were
getting the same returns at Andrews," says Chop, now 85 and
living in Palm Desert, Calif. "He said that there were a lot of
reporters there and that they were practically banging down the
door. He told me to get down there. I said that I'd be there as
quick as I could."

Chop arrived at the ARTC with his wife, whom he says he was
afraid to leave home by herself, just past midnight. "I looked
at the radarscope and there were about 10 or 14 unknowns," he
says. "They looked just like aircraft - they had the same kind of
strong signal - but we couldn't contact them. We just looked at
each other as if to say, 'What should we do?' We just watched
them. We were kind of helpless."

When a pair of F-94s was dispatched for Washington from New
Castle shortly after midnight, something strange happened, even
by the standards of what had already transpired: "The very
instant those planes appeared," Chop recalls, "the UFOs
disappeared. After about 20 minutes, the pilots decided there
was nothing for them to do. So they left. But the minute they
left, the UFOs came back. It was the most eerie thing I've ever
witnessed in my life."

According to Ruppelt's 1956 Blue Book memoirs, titled The Report
on Unidentified Flying Objects, the blips didn't vanish when the
jets nosed into Washington's airspace. Instead, they relocated
to Newport News, Va. The Air Force's own records jibe with
Ruppelt's account. Stargazers phoned Langley Air Force Base near
Newport News with reports of lights poking through the night
sky. An F-94 climbed up from Langley, its pilot locking his
radar onto a target. After three successful lock-ons, he lost
it. That's when, according to Ruppelt, the blips crept back onto
Washington's radar.

Before the F-94s had lifted out of New Castle, a Life magazine
reporter named Robert Ginna had phoned Ruppelt in Dayton to ask
how the Air Force was responding to the latest sightings.
Ruppelt hadn't heard about them - as had happened the previous
weekend, the press had scooped military intelligence - so he hung
up. He called Maj. Dewey Fournet, who'd been designated Blue
Book's government liaison, in Washington, and told him to get
over to National. Fournet picked up a Navy electronics expert
named Holcomb and headed to the airport, where Chop was waiting.

In the early-morning hours of that Sunday - Air Force records
don't give the exact time - Fournet dialed the Pentagon's Air
Force Command Post and two more F-94s swept out of New Castle to
scour the Washington sky. The pilots were steered toward the
radar targets by ARTC controllers. Chop says he scribbled down
the conversation between the pilots and the ground crew for an
Air Force report.

"The ground asked one of the pilots, [Lt.] William Patterson, if
he saw anything," Chop recalls. "And he responded, 'I see them
now and they're all around me. What should I do?' And nobody
answered, because we didn't know what to tell him."

According to Ruppelt's account, Patterson told reporters about
the enveloping lights the next morning. "I tried to make contact
with the bogeys below 1,000 feet, but [ARTC controllers]
vectored us around," he said. "I saw several bright lights. I
was at my maximum speed, but even then I had no closing speed. I
ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of overtaking them."

By the time the first rays of light ushered in Sunday morning,
the radarscopes were clear of any unknown targets. Fournet,
Holcomb, and Chop drove home. The "invasion" of Washington, D.C.
was over.

When asked the same question as Cocklin - What did he think was
behind the blips on the radarscope that night? - Chop gives nearly
the same reply: "At the time, I felt that we were being visited
by somebody from another planet," he says. "I still think so
after all these years."

Ruppelt touched down in Washington again on Monday afternoon,
July 28, 1952. The city was abuzz.

Evening newspapers were assaulting the Air Force with headlines
like "Fiery Objects Outrun Jets Over Capital - Investigation
Veiled in Secrecy Following Vain Chase." Newspapermen smothered
Ruppelt as he checked into a downtown hotel. President Harry
Truman had an aide ring Ruppelt the very next morning for an
explanation.

The Air Force had to say something, so Maj. Gen. John Samford,
the director of Air Force Intelligence, announced an afternoon
press conference at the Pentagon for that very afternoon.
According to a July 29 memorandum circulated by the office of
the Air Force's inspector general, there wasn't much to tell. The
memo chided the Air Force for stoking news reports of the
sightings. "Much of the publicity has been based on authorized
news releases by the Air Force," it read. "The Director of
Intelligence advises that no theory exists at the present time
as to the origin of the objects and they are considered to be
unexplained."

If Air Force Intelligence did get the memo, it ignored it. That
afternoon at the Pentagon, its top brass gave their longest and
best-attended press conference since the close of World War II
seven years earlier.

Samford told reporters that the sightings were most likely due
to temperature inversions - blankets of warm air that lie atop
cooler air in the Earth's atmosphere. The blankets are called
inversions because air temperature normally declines at a
regular rate as altitude increases. These anomalous pockets, the
theory went, act as airborne mirrors, bending radar beams back
to the ground. When those beams pick up solid matter on
Earth - say, a building or a truck - radarscopes are fooled into
detecting "airborne" objects.

Ruppelt observed that the press was uneasy. "Major Dewey Fournet
and Lieutenant Holcomb, who had been at the airport during the
sightings, were extremely conspicuous by their absence," he
wrote in his memoir. "Especially since it was common
knowledge...that they weren't convinced the UFOs picked up on
radars were weather targets."

According to a transcript of the press conference, one reporter
brought up the name of Pierman, the pilot who had radioed
reports of darting lights to ARTC on the first weekend of the
sightings. "Pierman described it as a light that was zooming and
all such things and this was not once but Barnes told me he
instructed him on that target three times," the reporter said.
"Then, this past Saturday night, when they all saw these blips,
Barnes vectored at least a half-dozen airline pilots and planes
into these things and they all reported seeing lights."

"I can't explain that," Samford responded. "I can't explain it
at all."

But the Air Force's temperature-inversion hypothesis won over
most reporters, even though Samford called it a "a 50/50
proposition." As the summer faded, newspaper coverage of UFO
sightings thinned with the sighting reports themselves, though
Life ran a story that August suggesting that the Air Force had
"known more about the blips than it admitted."

Nearly a year after the press conference, in May 1953, the CAA
released a report that was supposed to close the case on the
sightings. It concluded that unidentified radar blips, "do not
represent new phenomena; nor are they peculiar to the Washington
area."

The report argued that temperature inversions often drift on the
wind, giving the illusion of moving targets on radarscopes. It
devoted a couple of sentences to explaining the corresponding
visual sightings, too: "It should be noted that abrupt
temperature inversions aloft can refract light in much the same
way as radar waves and produce mirage effects."

CAA investigators had interviewed Cocklin about the first
Saturday night of the sightings. "They were very careful to
discount anything that we had to say," Cocklin remembers. "So we
just kept quiet. As I recall, we saw several things that night
but made no mention of them because they just kept laughing at
us. We didn't particularly care for it."

Oddly, the CAA report drew on weather data from Aug. 13 and 14,
1952, not from the two July weekends that sent UFOs to the top
of the CIA's priority list.

Previous sightings had usually involved small numbers of
observers. In January 1948, a pilot with the Kentucky Air
National Guard on a low-altitude training flight from Georgia to
Kentucky chased what he though was a flying saucer until he
reached around 25,000 feet. Then he fainted from lack of oxygen
and his plane spiralled back to Earth, breaking up completely
before it got there. Later that year, another Air National Guard
pilot entered a "dog fight" with what he claimed was a UFO over
Fargo, N.D. It had him flying so fast that he temporarily
blacked out.

At the same time, sightings were gaining space in the mainstream
press. In April 1952, Life magazine carried an article headlined
"Have We Visitors from Space?" about recent accounts of floating
"discs" and "globes of green fire" that could not "be explained
by present science as natural phenomena - but solely as artificial
devices, created and operated by a high intelligence."

Over the next couple of months, the letter-sized envelopes that
Blue Book used to collect UFO-related newspaper clippings from
around the country were replaced first with big manila envelopes
and then with shoeboxes.

The previous year, 169 UFO-sighting reports had trickled into
Air Force Intelligence, 22 of them never fully explained. In
1952, April alone brought 82 reports. And by the close of July,
the month of the Washington incidents, 536 reports buried Blue
Book's staff and persuaded at least some of them that
interplanetary spacecraft had indeed pierced the stratosphere.
"Project Blue Book was still trying to be impartial," wrote
Ruppelt. "But sometimes it was difficult." UFO hysteria was
running full throttle.

And Hollywood was cashing in. The 1951 film The Day the Earth
Stood Still, which opens with a flying saucer landing on the
National Mall, anticipated the following year's Washington
"invasion." But the invasion itself set the paradigm for
subsequent UFO films, such as 1959's Plan 9 From Outer Space and
1977's Close Encounters of the Third Kind, that hinge on
government cover-ups.

In the wake of the Washington sightings, public opinion
increasingly did, too. Publicly, the Air Force was dismissing
the threat of UFOs; privately, it was still looking for
explanations for many sightings. And its reluctance to publicly
address the UFO issue was interpreted, at least by some, as a
conspiracy.

An Air Force document in the declassified Blue Book files,
housed at the National Archives at College Park, Md., lists
dozens of sightings around the country for the end of July 1952.
Explanations like "Balloon," "Aircraft," or "Astro (METEOR)" sit
beside descriptions of the time and place of each sighting.
Beside the Washington, D.C., and Andrews Air Force Base July 26
sightings, typed in blocky letters, is the word "UNIDENTIFIED."

For the Central Intelligence Agency, determining whether the
1952 Washington invasion could be written off as a case of
Mother Nature toying with primitive radar technology was half
the problem. Since the summer of 1947, when a pilot passing over
Mount Rainier in Washington State claimed that he happened upon a
chain of nine saucers cruising at an estimated 1,700 miles an
hour, UFO sightings had been steadily mounting.

The CIA had been monitoring UFO reports since the Mount Rainier
sighting and was fixing for a major investigation. According to
Curtis Peebles' 1994 book Watch the Skies, a series of
top-secret CIA briefings issued in the months following the
Washington sightings warned of escalating national security
concerns: "A fair proportion of our population is mentally
conditioned to the acceptance of the incredible. In this fact
lies the potential for the touching-off of mass hysteria and
panic....Perhaps we, from an intelligence point of view, should
watch for any indication of Russian efforts to capitalize upon
this present American credulity."

The other prime CIA fear was purely military: "Our air warning
system," an August 1952 CIA briefing read, "will undoubtedly
always depend upon a combination of radar scanning and visual
observations. We give Russia the capability of delivering an air
attack against us, yet at any given moment now, there may be a
dozen official unidentified sightings plus many unofficial. At
the moment of attack, how will we, on an instant basis,
distinguish hardware from phantom?"

At base level, the U.S. government was itching for an
explanation as to what UFOs were. According to Fred Durant, a
retired Navy test pilot who was on assignment with the CIA's
Office of Scientific Intelligence in 1952, the CIA queried the
White House about any secret military activities that could be
causing the UFO sightings. Truman said he had no information on
any such covert operations.

"No one seemed to have a handle on these UFO reports," Durant,
85, says over the phone from his retirement home in Raleigh,
N.C. "The feeling was, If we don't find out what [UFOs] are,
they may be something that the Russians could use as a weapon
against us. That may sound silly today, but nobody knew what
these things were."

Faith in what had come to be known as the "Extraterrestrial
Hypothesis" spread into upper levels of government. H. Marshall
Chadwell, the assistant director for scientific intelligence and
the author of a major fall 1952 CIA briefing on the national
security threats posed by UFO hysteria, wrote, "Sightings of
unexplained objects at great altitude and traveling at high
speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are
of such nature that they are not attributable to natural
phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles...."

On Wednesday, Jan. 14, 1953, a CIA-sponsored team of
distinguished civilian scientists gathered in Washington for a
four-day review of the evidence on UFOs. According to a 1997
article "CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947=9690," the group
undertook an analysis of "the possible danger of the phenomena
to U.S. national security." It was dubbed the Robertson Panel,
taking its name from H.P. Robertson, the physicist who chaired
it.

The Robertson Panel reviewed 50 UFO reports from around the
country and watched a pair of films of weird aerial phenomena,
which the Air Technical Intelligence Center, the Air Force
division that housed Blue Book, considered the best proof that
the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis rang true.

But distinguished scientists on the panel were wary about their
assignment. "The panel members insisted that their names not get
out," recalls Durant, who served as the group's secretary and
authored its report. "They didn't want to be associated with
flying saucers. They were concerned about their reputations."

The panel wasn't much impressed by what the Air Force considered
its most baffling sightings reports. "Luis Alvarez [the panel's
radar and electronics expert] said, 'These [ground controller]
chaps don't know how to handle the equipment,'" recalls Durant.
"He threw up his hands after scanning half the reports, and said,
'There's no data. There's no facts. These are all personal
reactions of people with all sorts of backgrounds, and the great
majority have no knowledge of science or technology.'"

The Robertson Panel's final report only underlined the CIA's
national security concerns. "The continued emphasis on the
reporting of [UFOs] does, in these perilous times, result in a
threat to the orderly function of the protective organs of the
body politic," it reads. "We cite as examples the clogging of
channels of communication by irrelevant reports, the danger of
being led by continued false alarms to ignore real indications
of hostile action, and the cultivation of a morbid national
psychology in which skillful hostile propaganda could induce
hysterical behavior and harmful distrust of duly constituted
authority."

Speculation on the causes of the UFO sightings was consigned to
the meeting minutes, also written up by Durant. "Reasonable
explanations could be suggested for most of the sightings and by
'deduction and scientific method it could be induced that other
cases might be explained in a similar manner,'" wrote Durant.
"Because of the brevity of some sightings and the inability of
the witnesses to express themselves clearly, conclusive
explanations could not be expected for every case reported...."

The Robertson report offered only one concrete recommendation to
the CIA: Quash the public discourse on UFOs. According to the
1997 CIA article, included in the agency's semiannual Studies in
Intelligence, "The panel recommended that the National Security
Council debunk UFO reports and institute a policy of public
education to assure the public of the lack of evidence behind
UFOs. It suggested using the mass media, advertising, business
clubs, schools, and even the Disney Corporation to get the
message across. Reporting at the height of McCarthyism, the
panel also recommended that private UFO groups...be monitored
for subversive activities."

Durant still adheres to the Robertson Panel's findings. "After
nearly 50 years, I wouldn't change a single bit of its
conclusions," he says. "You can't prove a negative. There's no
proof that some of these sightings were extraterrestrial
visitors.

"But," he adds, "there's no proof that they weren't."

In the mid-'70s, more than 20 years after the sightings and the
Robertson report, a D.C.-area UFO enthusiast named Don Berliner
heard through the grapevine that a recent Air Force study had
debunked the CAA's explanation of UFO ground sightings as
mirages caused by temperature inversions.

A former member of the National Guard, Berliner moved to
Washington from the Midwest in the early '60s to volunteer, and
later work, for the National Investigations Committee on Aerial
Phenomena (NICAP), the largest international group devoted to UFO
phenomena in the '50s and '60s.

Investigating the tip on the Air Force's new report, Berliner
scheduled a meeting with Bill Coleman, the last Air Force public
information officer designated to handle UFO queries. When
Berliner arrived at the Pentagon, Coleman's office mates were
streaming by his desk, offering their hands and wishing him a
happy retirement.

"All his old cronies had come to wish him well," says Berliner,
71, who's worked as a freelance aviation journalist and author
since NICAP's demise. "While all these colonels and majors were
cooling their heels, he and I sat there for three-quarters of an
hour talking UFOs. He stuck by the official Air Force line, but
he told me about his own sighting: He'd been flying a B-25 across
the country with two other guys and they spotted an
aluminum-colored disc-shaped thing. They decided to chase it.
They chased it down to treetop level and got within an eighth of
a mile of it before it finally flew away."

Before Berliner left the Pentagon that day, Coleman handed him a
copy of the rumored report, titled Quantitative Aspects of
Mirages. It didn't broach the subject of radar sightings, but
the 1969 study - conducted by the Air Force's Environmental
Technical Applications Center - found that, contrary to what the
CAA had concluded more than 15 years earlier, mirages associated
with temperature inversions could not give rise to visual UFO
sightings. "Thus far," it read, "we have been unable to find any
UFO sighting explained as mirages."

The report debunked the science behind the inversion theory.
"Our results clearly show that the temperatures and temperature
gradients needed to produce mirages which occur at an angle of
one degree or more from the horizontal are extraordinarily
large," it reads. "[T]hese temperatures and temperature
gradients are not found in our atmosphere. The inversions
postulated by Menzel [a scientist cited by the Air Force at its
July 29, 1952, press conference] would need temperatures of
several thousand Kelvins in order to cause the mirages
attributed to them." In the 1953 CAA study, temperature
inversions above Washington of just 3 degrees for July 20, 1952,
and 1 degree for July 26, 1952, were reported.

The 1969 Air Force report argued that although inversions could
produce mirages, the inversion layer would need to be
drastically warmer than the air layer underneath in order to
produce a mirage visible from the ground. "That kind of
inversion would turn everything on the earth to cinders,"
Berliner chuckles in his dimly lit Alexandria apartment. "There
would have been nobody left to make UFO reports."

Although Berliner was delighted that a government-sponsored
report had stamped a question mark on Washington's 1952
sightings, it had come a decade and a half after the fact.
"Nobody paid attention to it," Berliner says of the report. "It
wasn't news anymore."

Even before obtaining the report, Berliner had felt dubious
about the government's flip-flopping on UFOs. As a young
reporter with the now-defunct Painesville, Ohio, Telegraph,
Berliner had written up a local UFO sighting and contacted the
Air Force for an official explanation. He says the Air Force
told him records showed that a research balloon had been launched
in the area that day, which was likely the cause of the UFO. But
Berliner says the balloon was actually floating over Iowa when
two men separately eyed a shapeless, multicolored light in the
northeastern Ohio sky at dawn.

He'd also written to NICAP for an explanation. In a reply
letter, the fledgling group cited a scientific research rocket
launched from Wallops Island, Va., the morning of the sighting.
That rocket was visible from Ohio, according to NICAP. When
Berliner wrote the Air Force again with this information, the
Air Force retracted its original reply and took up NICAP's
explanation as its own.

"What interested me was the Air Force's behavior," says
Berliner, reclining on his plaid sofa with a pillow propped up
behind his head. "They obviously tossed off something initially,
then had to correct themselves. Something was wrong."

A 1974 trip to the Air Force Archives in Montgomery, Ala., where
the declassified Blue Book files were housed before they moved
to the National Archives later that year, left Berliner even
more suspicious. In Ohio, he had "fast-talked" his way into the
local filter center for the Civilian Ground Corps - a national
government-run network of volunteers who monitored the sky for
Soviet planes. "People went out on rooftops and into the fields
with binoculars, and they'd call reports into filtering
centers," he says. "Of course, they didn't see any Soviet
bombers; there's never been any over here. But they did see
UFOs."

Over the course of two years, Berliner looked over hundreds of
UFO reports from northern Ohio at the filter center in Columbus.
But when he dug through Blue Book files - which served as the
national depository for UFO reports from 1951 until the project's
closure, in 1969 - Berliner couldn't find a single report from his
Ohio days. "Where they went," Berliner says, "is anyone's guess.
That got me interested in the government's behavior."

After more than 40 years on the UFO trail, Berliner says he's
still not a true believer in the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis.
"I'm not ready to say absolutely that UFOs are of alien origin,
but I'm creeping closer to that," he says, his fingers walking
down the arm of the sofa. "I just want to see an answer.
Mysteries are supposed to be solvable. On TV, they do it in
40-some minutes. We've been working for half a century."

The dozen or so books that Berliner's authored - with names such
as Crash at Corona and Airplanes of the Future - stand proudly in
a row atop a short bookcase near the door of his bare-walled
bachelor pad. The apartment doubles as the home office of the
Fund for UFO Research, a group that came together 20 years ago
out of "crying-in-our-beer sessions" attended by former NICAP
staffers. The old NICAP headquarters, vacated soon after Blue
Book was dismantled, was knocked down in the mid-'70s to clear
space for the north entrance to the Dupont Circle Metro station.

About 9 o'clock at night, Berliner's phone rings. He picks up
the receiver, listens for a couple of seconds, then drops into a
swivel chair behind a dark wood desk, the lone piece of
distinctive furniture in his Spartan living space. He reaches
for a pen, grabs a sheet of a clean white paper, and begins
scribbling. "In what part of the sky is it?..No, I can't see
north from my window....Is there any pattern to the
blinking?...Is there anybody else there with you?...Can you make
a sketch of it for me?"

After three or four minutes, Berliner hangs up the receiver and
lets out a sigh. "You can't get much information from seeing a
light at night," he says, "because what's it attached to? I'm
much happier with daytime sightings. Plus, the fact that it
wasn't doing anything. If it's a UFO, it will let you know. It
will do something very unusual to let you know."

Calls from UFO witnesses are pretty rare these days, says
Berliner. Just about one every two weeks. And there hasn't been
a major sighting wave for more than a quarter of a century.

In fact, Berliner says he's skeptical about most of the calls
that do come in, adding that reports from folks convinced that
UFOs are interplanetary spacecraft drive him up a wall.

"You run into anyone who claims to have the answers to UFOs,
turn around and run like hell," he says a few days later,
driving his dusty red 1992 Toyota Tercel to a UFO conference at
Anne Arundel Community College in Maryland. "Because they don't
know what they're talking about."

Which isn't to say Berliner's exactly a skeptic. At the mention
of Philip Klass, a retired magazine editor and probably the 20th
century's most outspoken critic of the Extraterrestrial
Hypothesis, Berliner cringes. "I have reason to believe Klass is
a covert government agent," he barks. "He's the only journalist
I've ever known who always followed the government line, no
matter what. I've pulled out of TV interviews because I knew he
would be there. He's universally hated in the UFO community.
He'll show up at UFO conferences just because he knows everyone
detests him. He loves it."

A ribbon of white tape across the front door of Klass' house in
Southwest Washington bears the message: "Resident is handicapped
needs five minutes to come."

Atop a staircase fitted with an electronic chair lift, Klass,
82, slouches in a swivel chair behind a computer in his office.
Two round ashtrays, overflowing with the butts of Marlboro 100s,
flank his keyboard. A half-finished 10-pack of Reese's Peanut
Butter Cups stares up from the floor near his feet.

Six months before the July 1952 sightings in Washington, Klass
took a job as an editor with Aviation Week in New York. A
10-year stint as an engineer with General Electric, where he
helped develop the remote-control turret system for B-29 bombers
during World War II, left him doubtful that the Air Force took
UFOs very seriously. "At no time did any Air Force or military
guy say that we had to develop a defense against UFOs," he
whispers. An anesthesiologist's slip-up five years ago damaged
one of Klass' vocal cords. Everything he says comes across as a
secret.

One of Klass' early pieces for Aviation Week, "That Was No
Saucer, That Was an Echo," summarized the 1953 CAA study
concluding that the Washington radar sightings had been caused
by temperature inversions. He still adheres to that theory. But
the visual sightings, which in 1953 he attributed to
innersion-triggered mirages, he now chalks up to a much simpler
phenomenon: people looking too hard at the sky.

"If you go out tonight and spend three hours looking up at the
sky," Klass says, "you'll see something unfamiliar. It's a
psychological effect. Have you ever heard of Bigfoot? In 1976,
the Washington Post ran a story about a Bigfoot sighting out in
the California or Oregon woods. Next day, there was a dozen
reports of Bigfoot in the Washington area."

Klass says that radar technology in 1952 wasn't sophisticated
enough to filter out many ordinary objects, such as flocks of
birds, weather balloons, or temperature inversions, that might
clutter radarscopes. UFO proponents argue that seasoned
controllers even then could differentiate between spurious
targets and solid, metallic objects. Klass disagrees. It may be
that "we had two dumb controllers at National Airport on those
nights," he says, adding that the introduction of digital
filters in the late '70s precipitated a steep decline in UFO
sightings on radar.

Then there are the Air Force accounts that weren't included in
the Blue Book files. In 1978, Klass received a letter from a
retired Air Force pilot who'd flown one of the F-94s over
Washington the night of July 26, 1952, the second weekend of the
Washington sightings. "The one transmission by Lt. Patterson
keyed the entire incident to get it blown out of all
proportions," it read, referring to the pilot who'd seen
"several bright lights." "All other air crew were sure that
nothing was 'out of order' over the capitol that night. And we
were quite certain that Patterson simply confused light from a
ground vehicle with an airborne light. This is most easy to do
when at low altitude. Lights from a vehicle climbing a gentle
hill will get a pilot's attention, as they tend to shine
upward."

A 1983 letter from another Air Force retiree reads, "During the
UFO mass hysteria of late 1951/52 I was on active duty as Group
Intelligence Officer at Andrews AFB. We received an alert one
evening of a UFO in the Washington, DC area. An F-94 was
scrambled and directed to the vicinity of Washington National
Airport. When vectored to the location of the UFO, the pilot
asked the National Airport controller 'Where is it?' The tower
controller responded, 'You're in it.' I debriefed the air crew
on their return and, like so many other debriefings on UFO
alerts, nothing further was heard. These UFO debriefings were
long and tedious to complete - air crews disliked the
chore - especially after a tiring night time search."

Klass hasn't always shared those pilots' skepticism. A 1965
string of sightings in Exeter, N.H., which began when a local
civilian and a pair of police officers witnessed a "brilliant,
roundish object" that bathed a field in red light, nearly had
him persuaded of the possibility of alien visitors. "I thought,
If I can be the first aerospace journalist who could prove we
had extraterrestrial visitors, I'd win a Pulitzer," Klass says,
"and I'd get a big bonus."

But when Klass began writing a review of John Fuller's 1966 book
Incident at Exeter for the Washington Post, he discovered that
engineers at the Exeter Power Plant who were quoted in the book
had never spoken with the author. Klass wound up theorizing that
the sightings had been caused by electrical phenomena associated
with the power lines, near which the sightings usually occurred.

Thirty-five years later, Klass insists, "If we have E.T.
visitors, I want to be first to report the details." In the
meantime, however, "it's fun being the voice in the wilderness."

When told that Berliner has used the word "skeptic" to describe
himself, Klass cracks a smile. "If he's a skeptic," he says,
"you're an Arab terrorist. But I'm considering making a donation
to the Fund for UFO Research to help them stay alive. They
provide ammunition for my newsletter."

Klass pulls a stack of stapled yellow-paper packets, back issues
of his Skeptics UFO Newsletters (SUN), from his desk. He's
published SUN since 1989 but switched from monthly to quarterly
editions last spring because of his poor health. A pair of
recent spinal surgeries has slowed him down considerably. Last
year, he missed the Mutual UFO Network's annual conference, the
biggest of its kind, for the first time since 1987.

The March 2001 edition of SUN includes an update on Klass'
condition. "My future, and that of SUN, is most uncertain," it
reads. "Fortuitously, there is not much of great importance
transpiring in UFOlogy at the present time. WE HOPE TO KEEP SUN
SHINING BUT WILL REFUND IF UNABLE TO DO SO."

Klass remains secure in his skepticism. "If we have
extraterrestrial visitors and they want us to know, they can
land," he says. "If they want to keep those visits secret, why
don't they turn off their lights?" CP






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 18

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:17 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:28:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

 >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:51:52 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

I can't spend long on this I am afraid, apologies to anyone
waiting for a response from me, but I have a lot on at the
moment and I am struggling to keep up to date with everything.

I won't take up any more of the List's time with my "cheesy
moon" theory after this post, though I will try to develop it
into a more coherent and believable proposition when I can spend
the time on it. It seems like a useful example of how an
outrageous theory can be made to appear believable.

I just want to answer a couple of questions about it:

1. The type of cheese is generic-other forms of cheese are
artificial. The nearest example of an artificial cheese is
Cheddar, but using additives and processing it, it can be made
to taste, look, and feel like other cheeses, esp. Edam and
Double Gloucester.

2. The outer surface of the moon is a very tough rind, several
feet thick, formed by millions of years of exposure to solar
radiation. It is effectively baked, but because it is unable to
oxidise in the (extremely thin) atmosphere to any significant
degree, it doesn't blacken.

The properties of this material include flexibility, extremely
good thermal tolerance, low density, and high mechanical
strength, which makes it an ideal substance for the manufacture
of spacecraft hulls (and is indeed used to manufacture the
shipping containers).

3. The fuel used for the shipping containers is derived from
underground lakes of cheese oil. The mechanism by which these
lakes were formed is not yet fully understood, but the refined
fuel has similar properties to experimental terrestrial fuels
based on vegetable oil.

I hope that answers some queries, as I said, I don't intend to
take up any more of the List's time with the theory, but if
anyone has any specific interests, please feel free to email me
directly and I will try to answer them.

Cheers, and in case I don't make any posts before then, Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Joe








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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:33:54 -0500
Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More


Just for the record, and for those who are interested. This
forum is about UFOs and the Abduction Experience. This post is
about the same. I would share it with you.

It was Thanksgiving 2001. I had dinner at my parents along with
Rosemarie and Pepe. Two of my aunts were there as were my
parents. I had nothing to drink, neither did Rosie. And Pepe
does not touch the stuff. In spite of my protestations as
Gesundt and the Gripple salesman, I really do not drink. Maybe a
beer. And a carton lasts two weeks.

We went home at about 7PM after a simply wonderful day. I drove
into the garage, leaving the garage door open, as we wanted to
walk Pepe. Rosemarie and I both donned our jackets as it was
cold and Pepe was given his little coat. The feller does not
like changes of temperature.

I attempted to get Pepe out of the garage. Usually, in fact
always, he pulls at his leash and wants to romp in the woods.
Not this time. He refused to go outside, whined and whimpered.
We forced him out, figuring he was just not interested in the
cold. He cried once he got outside.

We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
and wants inside. No doubt.

The next thing we recalled was that it was no longer 7PM. It was
8:30PM. And we were inside the garage, the garage door closed,
and none of us including Pepe was wearing a coat. The coats and
his little coat, were inside the car. We had missing time for
about an hour plus a half. When we got inside the house from the
inside garage door, the phone was lit up with messages, the
pager was beeping, the cell phone was also beeping with messages
and ringing.

My parents had been calling all that time. They live only five
minutes away from us now that we've moved and were frantic. So
was I. I had a headache which lasted several weeks, I felt
horrid and Rosie, who NEVER has a headache, was complaining of
one. The dog was beside himself at first, then settled down and
refused to move out of his bed. He did not even have his meal.
Now _that's_ unusual.

Such is the life of a fanatic. A man who cannot lose these
little guys what take me. And now, likely Rosemarie and Pepe. I
have no memory of what happened. Just the feelings, both
physical and emotional, which remain after an experience.

What happened? I dunno. But it happened before. On Thanksgiving.
Two years ago. That report was made on AIC when I belonged to
the group. Then, the same event took place only we lost more
than two hours if memory serves. And we were on the road at the
time. We wound up in the woods with my then much newer Aurora,
having taken the way long way home. I never do that.

On arriving home, we went straight away to bed after calling my
frantic parents. See, then, we lived a long way from them. And
my sidearm was in the car in the garage. Something I never do.
The car was filthy. With leaves, dirt and other debris.

I just thought I'd pass that along. And it is a shortened
version of some of the things I discuss in the book which never
seems to get finished. And I still await withall, for your
apology, OldBarge.


Best,

Morty









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                          Secrecy News -- 12/18/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:27:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:41:31 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/18/01



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 18, 2001


**      INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF NUCLEAR INFO
**      DOE OVERSIGHT BOARD FREEZES ACCESS
**      DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY TO BE REPEALED
**      JUSTICE CONVENES TASK FORCE ON LEAKS
**      SUPPORT SECRECY NEWS


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF NUCLEAR INFO

A painstaking search through 28 million pages of declassified
documents at the National Archives earlier this year turned up
60 pages containing classified nuclear weapons information that
should not have been disclosed, according to a new Department of
Energy (DOE) report to Congress.

The ongoing search for inadvertent disclosures of classified
information contained in declassified records was mandated in
1998 by congressional critics of the Clinton Administration's
declassification program. To date, nearly two hundred million
pages of declassified documents have been scrutinized by
official reviewers as a result.

The continuing congressional requirement to re-review such
documents has been criticized by some security professionals
because it diverts resources and skilled personnel for an
uncertain benefit. The whole thing is "overkill," according to
the latest report of the Information Security Oversight Office.

An error rate of 60 pages out of 28 million (or 2 per million)
is far better than might be expected from most human activities.

The significance of the inadvertent disclosures is further
diminished by the fact that about half of them involve
information concerning locations of nuclear weapons storage
sites abroad thirty or forty years ago. Such historical
information, while formally classified, hardly poses a threat to
national security.

An assessment of the damage resulting from the other disclosures
was not released. Nor did DOE report on the financial cost of
locating the 60 pages containing classified information.

The new DOE report on inadvertent disclosures of classified
information, the fourth in a series, is dated August 2001 but
was released in declassified form on December 17. A copy of the
report is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent4.html


DOE OVERSIGHT BOARD FREEZES ACCESS

The Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board, which oversees
nuclear safety at Department of Energy (DOE) sites, last week
moved to block public access to unclassified DOE documents in
the Board's possession.

DOE directed the DNFSB to withhold the documents after they were
requested by researcher Tom Clements of the watchdog Nuclear
Control Institute. Such documents had previously been accessible
through the Board.

"The DNFSB has played a critical role in providing a tiny window
onto DOE activities and information," said Mr. Clements in a
December 16 release. "Slamming this window shut under the guise
of national security could well prove to be a disservice to
those working in the public interest on DOE issues." See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/12/clements.html


DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY TO BE REPEALED

The controversial Department of Energy counterintelligence
polygraph program that was enacted by Congress three years ago
will be repealed and replaced by a new program, according to the
Defense Authorization Act of 2002.

The previously mandated polygraph program, which required the
polygraph testing of perhaps twenty thousand national laboratory
personnel, drew stiff resistance from scientists and others. A
newly reconfigured DOE polygraph program will be based on the
results of a pending National Academy of Sciences study.

See the new defense authorization provision on polygraph testing
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/poly.html

Last week, a federal judge rejected government efforts to
dismiss a lawsuit that challenges the use of polygraph testing
for screening of federal employees. The lawsuits were brought
against the FBI, DEA and Secret Service by eleven plaintiffs,
represented by attorney Mark S. Zaid, who were denied employment
based on polygraph tests. See:

http://antipolygraph.org/litigation.shtml


JUSTICE CONVENES TASK FORCE ON LEAKS

The Department of Justice last week announced the creation of an
interagency task force "to review current administrative and
legal sanctions governing leaks of classified information" and
to recommend administrative, regulatory and statutory changes,
if needed, to combat such unauthorized disclosures.

The task force was established in response to congressional
direction in the intelligence authorization act of 2002. It
will issue an unclassified report by May 1. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/12/leaks.html


SUPPORT SECRECY NEWS

If you value the service that Secrecy News provides, please
consider making a financial contribution to support this
enterprise.

A tax-deductible check, payable to Federation of American
Scientists (and earmarked for "Secrecy News") may be sent to:
Secrecy News, Federation of American Scientists, 1717 K Street
NW, Suite 209, Washington, DC 20036.

Secure online donations to FAS can also be made through this
page (specify Secrecy News as recipient):

http://www.guidestar.org/helping/donate.adp?ein=23-7185827


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
   subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Dec > Dec 19

                  Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:10:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:41:55 -0500
Subject: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line


Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group UFO History Workshop
Now On-Line.


During Memorial Day Weekend, 1999, a workshop was organized in
Chicago to bring together individuals actively involved in UFO
historical research in an attempt to determine the current state
of affairs of UFO history. One result of this meeting was the
formation of the Sign Historical Group and the publication of
the Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group UFO History
Workshop.

UFO history and the experiential aspects of the phenomenon exist
whether or not UFOs, in fact, exist. Though mainstream scholars
generally disregard the phenomenon, the history is robust and
has had dramatic effects on our culture for the past fifty
years. The Sign Historical Group and the publication of the
Proceedings are attempts to bring a more traditional approach to
this fascinating aspect of our cultural history.

In this regard, the Proceedings is not simply a compilation of
presented papers, but rather, represents essentially three areas
of interest that were discussed during the Workshop.

1. Contributed Papers: The need for a scholarly journal in which
peer-reviewed articles can be published and discussed.

2. Archival Resources: A historical research manual, or
"cookbook" which would provide specific information relevant to
the field.

3. Collections: The need for a registry of primary materials
collections, which would eventually evolve into a "union list."

Contributed Papers include Jerry Clark's "A Brief History of UFO
History" Eddie Bullard's "Research Opportunities in UFO
History," as well as Brad Spark's "Ruppelt's Coverup," which
reexamines Ruppelt's role as head of Project Blue Book. This
section also provides several contributed articles dealing with
research methodology, computer -based archiving and succession
planning. Foreign Contributions presents essays on UFO history
in various countries including, Bill Chalker's "Ufology Down
Under," Jenny Randles' "UK Historical UFO Data Collections,"
Edoardo Russo's "A Summary of Official UFO Research in Italy"
and Vice Air Marshall J. Salatun's 1977 letter to Dr. J. Allen
Hynek regarding UFOs in Indonesia.

Archival Resources include Eddie Bullard's "Newspaper Resources
for UFO Historical Research," James McNeff (IRE, Inc.) "Finding
Treasures in the Archives: Tips and Resources" and two articles
by Jan Aldrich titled "Proposed Archives Team Visit" and
"Proposal for a 'Government UFO Document' Archives." Also
included are descriptions of various governmental institutions,
which are principal depositories for historical materials.

The section on UFO collections begins with an overview of the
AFU archives in Sweden by Anders Liljegren titled "Archives for
UFO Research: Personal Recollections Preserving the History of
UFO's" and exemplifies a highly successful enterprise in the
preservation of historical materials. Also, included in this
section are individual summaries and descriptions of 27
collections held by individuals and scholarly institutions.

Dispersed throughout are images of particular interest to UFO
historians, such as a group photo of an early T-2, Technical
Intelligence, meeting at Wright Field, Ohio, including Col.
McCoy, Lt. Col. Malcolm Seashore, John "Red" Honaker and others.
Other unique photographs include Loedding's "Pumpkin Seed
Aircraft," a group picture of the 17th District of the Air Force
Office of Special Investigations in September 1948, Charles B.
Moore preparing for a manned balloon launch in 1951, and Lincoln
La Paz with staff in New Mexico. Thanks to Wendy Connors, Karl
Pflock and others for contributing images.

It is hoped that this publication will raise the level of
interest and encourage others to contribute to the sometimes
sketchy, often misinterpreted and always incomplete history of
UFOs in modern times!

Information about the The SHG Proceedings and the PDF format
version may be downloaded from:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/proceed.htm

*Since the Proceedings consists of 220 pages, downloading with a
telephone modem may take some time depending on your system.
Please note that best results will be obtained from using Adobe
Acrobat Reader version 5.0 available for free at:

http://www.abdobe.com


****************************************************************

Since the 1999 History Workshop, SHG members have continued to
pursue goals set during the workshop including, preservation of
UFO materials, inventorying collections, and conducting
historical research. Some activities since the Workshop are
summarized as follows.

Preservation

Concerning the preservation of UFO materials, SHG members have
received or copied portions of personal collections and lifetime
work of a number of researchers including: Robert Todd, Raymond
Fowler (UFO case files and other relevant material, less his
abduction research materials which have been disposed of
elsewhere), Ty Briggs, former NICAP-Connecticut member and
member of the Early Warning Network for the Condon Study, and a
significant part of Dr. Willy Smith's files including complete
documentation on the UNICAT Project. A number smaller UFO files
held by William Rhodes, Colonel Doyle Rees, and others have also
been acquired or copied, as well as additional files belonging
to Dr. J. Allen Hynek and some material concerning Dr. Lincoln
LaPaz. The transferred material comes with attendant agreements
to respect confidentiality with regard to witnesses and
informants.

Archiving Audio Programs and Photographs

Wendy Connors has converted and archived well more than 300
audiotapes of significant UFO programs, interviews, and
investigations, etc. In the process, she has utilized several
types of outdated recording equipment including reel-to-reel.
Wendy also continues to expand her ever-growing collection of
images and photographs of personalities associated with UFO
history. The collection has grown to more than 3000 photographs
in her "Faded Discs Archives." Recently, she scanned and
enhanced hundreds of photo slides from the collections of Max
Miller, Loren Gross, Dr. Willy Smith, Barry Greenwood, Jan
Aldrich, and Gary Mangiacorpa onto CD ROM.

Wendy offers to convert and copy audio tapes to cassettes and
scan slides and photographs onto CD Roms at cost. Anyone who
wishes to take advantage of these services should contact Wendy
at:

ProjectSign@Worldnet.att.net


Indexing

Aside from Ed Stewart's notable works, few reliable indices or
inventories of UFO material exist with the exception of Barry
Greenwood's extensive collection of UFO articles from popular
and scholarly journals and magazines. Recent additions include
copies of numerous UFO articles from Australian and New Zealand
publications, obtained by Loren Gross during a recent visit to
Murray Bott in New Zealand, and material from South America and
Europe obtained from Dr. Willy Smith's collection.

The latest version of the "Union Catalogue of UFO Articles" may
be found at:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/bgbib.htm

Updated listings of Barry's UFO magazines and newsletters holdings in
English have also been expanded from the above sources and may be found at:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/bgper.htm

The latest update of Non-English UFO magazines and newsletters
can be found at:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/bgnone.htm

Ball Lightning represents a fascinating aerial phenomenon little
understood by modern science. Many bibliographies that cite ball
lightning articles contain numerous errors, though Barry's
extensive index should provide a useful antidote. A copy of each
cited article exists in Barry's files, so this listing is more
reliable than many other listings available on-line.

  The latest version of the ball lightning listing may be found at:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/bl_intro.html

Sign Oral History Project

Oral histories represent a primary source for historical
research. With the assistance of various SHG members, Tom Tulien
has been conducting interviews with significant personalities
associated with UFO history. Among the interviewees are Col.
Doyle Rees (17th OSI District Commander in 1948-9), Col. Wayne
Mattson, Victor Bilek, Dr. Leon Davidson, Dr. Paul McCarthy, Dr.
Roy Craig, Prof. C. B. Moore, J. J. Kaliszewski, William Zuk,
Albert Chop, William Rhodes, Frederick Durant, III, Dr. Frank
Salisbury, Richard Greenwell, Marilyn Epperson, Ted Bloecher,
Capt. Willis Sperry, Dr. Michael Swords, Clas Svahn, John
Timmerman, and numerous others. The current index lists 64
entries.

On-going Research

Recent research trips by SHG members include the SAC Museum, the
Library of Congress, the National Archives, Maxwell Air Force
Base, the Roswell Museum, and many universities and libraries,
which have yielded a good deal of new material. Freedom of
Information Act requests continue to produce new discoveries.
Currently, FOIA requests have been filed on more than 200
intelligence reports, with the majority of requests still
pending. Also, SHG took over two of Robert Todd's FOIA requests
concerning correspondence between the USAF and the CIA from 1947
to 1953. Unfortunately neither request produced any information
on UFOs.

Also, requests and discoveries in currently unclassified
government files have increased knowledge of UFOs, related
intelligence activity and aviation history. The current
collections of government microfilms concerning UFOs and other
subjects now total more than 550 reels. Some of these files no
longer exist in government archives.

Some of the official UFO material uncovered by SHG members is
listed among the government files of Jan Aldrich at:

http://www.project1947.com/shg/janfold.htm

SHG welcomes assistance in locating research materials,
documents, audio and video tapes, leads, and introductions to
important figures in the UFO field with the purpose of
preserving relevant files or obtaining oral histories. We are
specifically interested in Files, newspaper-clipping scrapbooks,
correspondence, essays, manuscripts, pictures and other material
that further our understanding of UFO history.

Thanks to all SHG members and contributors. Special thanks to
Loy Pressley, Candy Peterson, John Stepkowski, and Jim Klotz.

Enjoy the Proceedings!

Jan Aldrich
Vice Chairman
Sign Historical Group
P. O. Box 40
Scotland, CT 06264
(860) 546-9134
jan@project1947.com
http://www.project1947.com/shg/














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   Dec > Dec 19

               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 03:46:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:43:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:17 -0000

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:51:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >I can't spend long on this I am afraid, apologies to anyone
 >waiting for a response from me, but I have a lot on at the
 >moment and I am struggling to keep up to date with everything.

 >I won't take up any more of the List's time with my "cheesy
 >moon" theory after this post, though I will try to develop it
 >into a more coherent and believable proposition when I can spend
 >the time on it. It seems like a useful example of how an
 >outrageous theory can be made to appear believable.

 >I just want to answer a couple of questions about it:

 >1. The type of cheese is generic-other forms of cheese are
 >artificial. The nearest example of an artificial cheese is
 >Cheddar, but using additives and processing it, it can be made
 >to taste, look, and feel like other cheeses, esp. Edam and
 >Double Gloucester.

 >2. The outer surface of the moon is a very tough rind, several
 >feet thick, formed by millions of years of exposure to solar
 >radiation. It is effectively baked, but because it is unable to
 >oxidise in the (extremely thin) atmosphere to any significant
 >degree, it doesn't blacken.

 >The properties of this material include flexibility, extremely
 >good thermal tolerance, low density, and high mechanical
 >strength, which makes it an ideal substance for the manufacture
 >of spacecraft hulls (and is indeed used to manufacture the
 >shipping containers).

 >3. The fuel used for the shipping containers is derived from
 >underground lakes of cheese oil. The mechanism by which these
 >lakes were formed is not yet fully understood, but the refined
 >fuel has similar properties to experimental terrestrial fuels
 >based on vegetable oil.

 >I hope that answers some queries, as I said, I don't intend to
 >take up any more of the List's time with the theory, but if
 >anyone has any specific interests, please feel free to email me
 >directly and I will try to answer them.

 >Cheers, and in case I don't make any posts before then, Merry
 >Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Joe,

Of course all thoce craters come from when aliens scooped out
cheese balls.

Josh










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               Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:05:31 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:45:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:17 -0000

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:51:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Formation in Iran Resembles Face on Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >I can't spend long on this I am afraid, apologies to anyone
 >waiting for a response from me, but I have a lot on at the
 >moment and I am struggling to keep up to date with everything.

 >I won't take up any more of the List's time with my "cheesy
 >moon" theory after this post, though I will try to develop it
 >into a more coherent and believable proposition when I can spend
 >the time on it. It seems like a useful example of how an
 >outrageous theory can be made to appear believable.

Grated ... I mean <snip>, Sorry...

 >Cheers, and in case I don't make any posts before then, Merry
 >Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Dear Joe, List, Errol,

Sorry to be so abusive, Joe, however your cheese theory is full
of holes. In fact, it stinks. Like ripe, unwashed socks that've
been worn in my boots for a month.

First, I suggest you confrim your theory by consulting a damned
good remote viewer. I mean a really good one.

Second, I suggest you listen to me quite carefully, as I refuse
to do this yet again. Done it before at least three times and,
quite frankly, I am getting tired of it. See, the last time the
alien en titties took me, they flew me to Rio, and from there,
we visited their home planet, Mongo. Whilst at Mongo (Santa
Maria), I was introduced to their very best remote viewers and
shown exactly what the moon, our moon, is made of. And this will
surprise you. It may in fact, shock you.

The moon is made of sugar and spice, and everything nice. On
the poles, there are crusty little ginger bread islands and on the
equator, there is ice cream. In the median latitudes exists the
most beautiful dingleberries the Good Lord ever made. And in
between each, is a long straw. Why, just enough for everyone
who wants a sip. And a sip of what?

Gripple. Huge oceans of Gripple. Right under the crust you were
talking about. Now, for the last time... take that rye bread you
bought and stash it for a rainy day. But do bring your mouth.
It's gonna have a ball. And don't forget your tongue. It will be
a joyous tongue for sure. And your body... oh your body... it
will be the most fun you ever had with your clothes on in your
entire life.


Jim

PS: How'd I do?









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                    Firmage - 21st Century Physics Review

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:01:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:01:51 -0500
Subject: Firmage - 21st Century Physics Review


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News December 18, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0038.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
=BB FIRMAGE - 21st CENTURY PHYSICS REVIEW
science & technology news

*** Joe Firmage launches the first monthly physics review from
Motion Sciences Organization, highlighting discoveries being made
at the frontiers of science ***

"There is a new kind of future awaiting us all, if we have the
courage and the will to make it so," wrote Joseph P. Firmage, in
an email message to friends and sponsors of the Motion Sciences
community.

The Chairman of Motion Sciences, said his organization had
hoped to initiate a series of monthly newsletters in October, but
that recent world events delayed their schedule.

Joe Firmage is the Silicon Valley entrepeneur who made the
headlines in October of 1998 for his involvement with the Kairos
project, an online manuscript comprising his ideas about science
and metaphysics, which he called "The Truth." Firmage quickly
became known for his views on the existence of extraterrestrial
intelligence.

Prior to founding Motion Sciences, Firmage was the chairman of
a venture firm that culminated in an alliance with Carl Sagan
Productions. Cosmos Studios has since released a new edition of
Sagan's historic COSMOS television series on DVD.

------------------------------------------------------------
MOTION SCIENCES 21ST CENTURY PHYSICS REVIEW

From: Joseph P. Firmage
Chairman, Motion Sciences Organization

SERIOUS DOUBT CAST ON PHYSICS' CONCEPT OF MASS

The widely reported reanalysis of the Large Electron Positron
(LEP) Collider data at CERN is casting serious doubt upon the
existence of the Higgs particle. According to a Dec. 5 report in
the New Scientist: "The legendary particle that physicists
thought explained why matter has mass probably does not exist.
So say researchers who have spent a year analysing data from the
LEP accelerator at the CERN nuclear physics lab near Geneva."
See CNN's early coverage of this bit of science history in the
making at:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/12/06/physics.reut/index.html

This news has direct relevance to the work of Motion Sciences
Organization. Working with our partners, Motion Sciences'
theoretical studies division, the California Institute for
Physics and Astrophysics, has uncovered a promising connection
between the electromagnetic quantum vacuum (also called the
zero-point field) and the origin of mass. This approach is
significant because it does not require a Higgs field. Visit:

http://motionsciences.org/research

to learn more about our work.

OBJECTS MOVED BY THE POWER OF LIGHT

As reported in May 2001 by James Meek, Science Correspondent
for Guardian Unlimited:

Researchers in Scotland have come up with a laser device able to
grip and twist objects at a distance. The device, invented by a
team from the physics department at St Andrews University, is
able to rotate microscopic objects, such as a tiny glass rod,
twice the thickness of a human hair, with nothing more than the
power of light.

"We've only just begun to realise the possibilities for what we
might do with this technology," said Kishan Dholakia, one of the
researchers who wrote a paper on the "tractor beam" published
in the journal Science.

Particles of light have a tiny amount of mass and high velocity,
meaning laser beams exert a slight force on objects they touch.

This property has already been used to create "laser tweezers",
tightly focused beams which can trap microscopic objects and
move them from place to place. But those lasers could not, like
traditional tweezers in a human hand, turn most objects around.

By using two lasers together, the St Andrews team created an
interference pattern in the form of a spiral of light which traps
an object in the arms. Adjusting the beams causes the spiral to
rotate, taking the object with it.

As well as the glass rod, which could be used to stir tiny
amounts of liquid, the scientists have rotated a hamster
chromosome, showing how their technique could be used to study
the innermost workings of cells for medical research.

Another use for the "tractor beam" is in nanotechnology, the
science of building microscopic machines from components not
much larger than a few molecules.

"Our technique could be used to drive motors, mixers,
centrifuges, and other rotating parts in cheap, tiny, automated
technologies of the future," Dr Dholakia said.

Another member of the team, Michael McDonald, said it would not
be practical to scale up the beam to move bigger objects. The
power of the lasers used was very low, but that did not mean
that a laser 100 times as powerful would be able to move an
object 100 times as big.

BUCKYBALLS SHATTER TEMPERATURE RECORD FOR SUPERCONDUCTIVITY IN
CARBON-BASED MATERIAL

As reported on PhysicsWeb.org:

Physicists have achieved superconductivity in carbon-60 at
54 K - the highest temperature yet in the material - and they
think they can do even better. Bertram Batlogg and co-workers
at Bell Laboratories in the US broke the record by adding positive
charges - instead of electrons - to carbon-60 crystals. They
believe this is the highest superconducting temperature attained
so far in a non-copper-oxide material (J H Schon et al 2000
Nature 408 549).

Read more at http://physicsweb.org/article/news/4/12/1

U.S. HAS HEAVILY RESEARCHED GRAVITY PROPULSION
TECHNOLOGIES FOR DECADES, ACCORDING TO A TOP DEFENSE
JOURNALIST

As reported by Bradley Perrett of Reuters on September 9, 2001:

The U.S. military may have conducted serious research into anti-
gravity based on Nazi studies, a top defense journalist suggests
in a new book.

In "The Hunt for Zero Point," journalist Nick Cook says, based
on a decade's research, he believes by the 1950s the U.S. was
seriously working on anti-gravity "electrogravitics" technology,
which would lift and propel vehicles without wings or thrust.

"I feel intuitively that some vehicle has been developed,
particularly given that there is this wealth of scientific data
out there, and the Americans have never been slow to pick up on
this sort of science," Cook, the aerospace consultant for Jane's
Defense Weekly, told Reuters in an interview.

Read more at:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/anti_grav_010909.html

BLACK HOLE OBSERVATIONS RAISING NEW QUESTIONS

As reported in the October 2001 issue of Astronomy Magazine:

Observations from four spacecraft have identified the inner edge
of a spinning disk of material around a black hole about 5,000
light-years from Earth. The surprising results show that the disk
is much farther from the black hole than astronomers expected.

Read more at:

http://astronomy.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/000/445wrzvl.asp

Separately, in the Sept. 8, 2001 (vol. 160, #10) issue of
Science News (offline) is an article about a recently measured
X-ray/radio flare-up of the supermassive black hole at the
center of the galaxy.

The measurements, were for the first time, able to pinpoint the
location of this black hole to high precision. Investigators
have reported that nearby orbiting stars indicate that the event
horizon is 30,000 times larger than it is supposed to be for the
measured black hole mass as predicted by current theory. And
the nearby orbiting matter is 1,500 times farther away from the
event horizon than it should be as predicted by current theory.

AN ANTIDOTE FOR FEELINGS OF DISCOURAGEMENT FROM
SEPTEMBER 11

After years of preparatory work, on August 13, 2001, Motion
Sciences Organization was launched. Along with our launch, we
released a special online movie - ENGAGE - presenting the
context and vision of our Mission. ENGAGE can be downloaded at:

http://motionsciences.org/engage/vision.movie.html.

Part of the magic of this online movie its beautiful, energetic
soundtrack. We're pleased to introduce a new version of this
soundtrack by MSO's Matt King, with lyrics by Abby Hasstedt. We
encourage you to download the MP3 at:

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/299/kings1ze.html

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

=BB IMAGE: Joe Firmage Thunk Different
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewThunkDifferentThumb.jpg

16-Aug-01
ew=BB Firmage - Engaging the Future
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0028.htm

The people and partners forming Motion Sciences believe that
significant discoveries in physics may be made within 10 years,
discoveries of great significance to the future of life on
Earth.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
December 18, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:

http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0038.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited
as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:56:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:43:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
 >Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Just for the record, and for those who are interested. This
 >forum is about UFOs and the Abduction Experience. This post is
 >about the same. I would share it with you.

<snip>

 >We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
 >We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
 >got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
 >was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
 >merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
 >assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
 >and wants inside. No doubt.

 >The next thing we recalled was that it was no longer 7PM. It was
 >8:30PM. And we were inside the garage, the garage door closed,
 >and none of us including Pepe was wearing a coat. The coats and
 >his little coat, were inside the car. We had missing time for
 >about an hour plus a half. When we got inside the house from the
 >inside garage door, the phone was lit up with messages, the
 >pager was beeping, the cell phone was also beeping with messages
 >and ringing.

<snip>

Hello Morty:

This is just awful.

As I understand it, these events, whatever they are, happen
without warning and not on any sort of predicable schedule.

Since they recur, and to more than a few people, I cannot help
but wonder if there isn't some way to get solid evidence of
something truly strange!

Yes, I heard/read about somebody who set up an elaborate video
camera scheme, trip wires etc. which would be obvious to anyone
with any technical knowledge... and just as easily foiled.

How about something outside of the box.

I'm no expert. Are there non-electronic wind-up cameras that can
take several shots at timed intervals once initiated? It sounds
like you had a few seconds notice before your memory failed you.

There must be other simple tricks, maybe some special dust on
the floor... something hopefully, that might escape the notice
of potential abductors assuming that it the problem?

Whatever you (or anyone else) comes up with, don't put it on the
list! Keep it to yourself until there is some sort of evidence
besides missing time and misplaced clothing!

Here's an example (not abduction related) A simple magnetic
detector which does not rely on anything electric which could be
"jammed".

Suspend an iron rod inside an copper pipe (or vice versa, one
ferrous, one not) so that they nearly touch inside but not
quite. Hang that in a dead space (unused closet?) where the wind
can't move it. Any really strong magnetic perturbation should
make it ring like a bell. If so, run outside with a good camera!

Here's another one. Carry a small tape recorder. Instead of the
electret (crystal-type) microphone, plug in one of those little
suction-cup telephone pickups. These work magnetically and make
the world's worst microphones... i.e. they reject ambient sound
noise! Test it out by putting the "pickup" near a loudspeaker
playing music.

At the first sign of an anomaly, start recording. No telling
what you will pick up besides noise of course. You will want a
cassette of ordinary mag-noise in your habitual environs as a
'control'.


Just some thoughts, and best wishes.

- Larry










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                   Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:56:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:55:03 -0500
Subject: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings


Bogus Carpenter Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings

Widespread quotation attributed to NASA's Scott Carpenter:

      "At no time, when the astronauts were in space
      were they alone: there was a constant surveillance
      by UFOs."

 From Mercury astronaut Scott Carpenter, December 19, 2001:

      "The quote is absolute hogwash and a blatant lie.
      I never thought it, never said it, and it never
      happened."










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                   Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:54:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:54:03 -0500
Subject: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

December 19, 2001

Roswell UFO Bombshell
Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
by Jim Keith

My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
names of his own sources for the following information, but he
has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
others in the engineering field and in the military who were
living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
identifying my source, the following information is rendered
suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
what he told me:

World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were
considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some
leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
American government and military who realized this were
terrified that the Soviets would find out.

The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
where they were tested and used in target drops.

It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
been dropped.

The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
reaction.

As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

-----

UFO UpDates thanks Theo Paijmans for the lead.....









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

             Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:35:14 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:51:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:56:09 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
 >>Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Just for the record, and for those who are interested. This
 >>forum is about UFOs and the Abduction Experience. This post is
 >>about the same. I would share it with you.

 ><snip>

 >>We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
 >>We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
 >>got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
 >>was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
 >>merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
 >>assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
 >>and wants inside. No doubt.

 >>The next thing we recalled was that it was no longer 7PM. It was
 >>8:30PM. And we were inside the garage, the garage door closed,
 >>and none of us including Pepe was wearing a coat. The coats and
 >>his little coat, were inside the car. We had missing time for
 >>about an hour plus a half. When we got inside the house from the
 >>inside garage door, the phone was lit up with messages, the
 >>pager was beeping, the cell phone was also beeping with messages
 >>and ringing.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Morty:

 >This is just awful.

 >As I understand it, these events, whatever they are, happen
 >without warning and not on any sort of predicable schedule.

 >Since they recur, and to more than a few people, I cannot help
 >but wonder if there isn't some way to get solid evidence of
 >something truly strange!

 >Yes, I heard/read about somebody who set up an elaborate video
 >camera scheme, trip wires etc. which would be obvious to anyone
 >with any technical knowledge... and just as easily foiled.

 >How about something outside of the box.

 >I'm no expert. Are there non-electronic wind-up cameras that can
 >take several shots at timed intervals once initiated? It sounds
 >like you had a few seconds notice before your memory failed you.

 >There must be other simple tricks, maybe some special dust on
 >the floor... something hopefully, that might escape the notice
 >of potential abductors assuming that it the problem?

 >Whatever you (or anyone else) comes up with, don't put it on the
 >list! Keep it to yourself until there is some sort of evidence
 >besides missing time and misplaced clothing!

 >Here's an example (not abduction related) A simple magnetic
 >detector which does not rely on anything electric which could be
 >"jammed".

 >Suspend an iron rod inside an copper pipe (or vice versa, one
 >ferrous, one not) so that they nearly touch inside but not
 >quite. Hang that in a dead space (unused closet?) where the wind
 >can't move it. Any really strong magnetic perturbation should
 >make it ring like a bell. If so, run outside with a good camera!

 >Here's another one. Carry a small tape recorder. Instead of the
 >electret (crystal-type) microphone, plug in one of those little
 >suction-cup telephone pickups. These work magnetically and make
 >the world's worst microphones... i.e. they reject ambient sound
 >noise! Test it out by putting the "pickup" near a loudspeaker
 >playing music.

 >At the first sign of an anomaly, start recording. No telling
 >what you will pick up besides noise of course. You will want a
 >cassette of ordinary mag-noise in your habitual environs as a
 >'control'.


 >Just some thoughts, and best wishes.

 >- Larry

Thank you Larry,

But I've tried everything. As a kid interested in radio, Ham
radio and electronics (from age about 8) thru hi school, I had
my own alarm, detection, capacitive sensors, etc. Nutting
worked. I used a huge rod which was largely a capacitor, used on
bomber aircraft from WW II. Dad worked for a major player in
fuel detection systems. I set up what was a very sophisticated
barrier with these huge caps. They were from ten to fifteen feet
long and were staged all around my room.

Nuttin!

Since then, I've tried more sophisticated and less electromechanical
systems.

Nuttin.

Since I began my own research about five years ago, I've
interviewed hundreds of perceived abductees and many who are
downright certain that the phenomena is quite real as
experienced. I am not entirely sure of that. These experiencers
have tried all sorts of detection. One lady uses a video
recorder going all night long.

Nuttin.

Which leads me to suspect that maybe, just maybe, this phenom is
real enough, but may occur outside of our own... fill in the
blank yourself... universe... bodies... consciousness...
whathehellever. I say this at the risk of being yelled at,
maligned and otherwise a traitor.

We have an old saying in Sicilian... I won't repeat it. It'll
only get me in more trubbul.

Jim








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:47:13 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:53:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings -



 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings
 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:56:41 -0600


 >Bogus Carpenter Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings

 >Widespread quotation attributed to NASA's Scott Carpenter:

 >"At no time, when the astronauts were in space
 >were they alone: there was a constant surveillance
 >by UFOs."

 >From Mercury astronaut Scott Carpenter, December 19, 2001:

 >"The quote is absolute hogwash and a blatant lie.
 >I never thought it, never said it, and it never
 >happened."

Dear List, Errol and... you,

What would you say to me regarding Carl Sagan's view on UFOs
and the Abduction experience, from your first hand knowledge,
Mr. Oberg?

Say your sorry in your response. Try being a forthright
gentleman in lieu of a martinette.


Jim Mortellaro









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   Dec > Dec 19

             Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:56:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:55:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings
 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:56:41 -0600

 >Bogus Carpenter Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings

 >Widespread quotation attributed to NASA's Scott Carpenter:

 >"At no time, when the astronauts were in space
 >were they alone: there was a constant surveillance
 >by UFOs."

 >From Mercury astronaut Scott Carpenter, December 19, 2001:

 >"The quote is absolute hogwash and a blatant lie.
 >I never thought it, never said it, and it never
 >happened."

Hi James,

Any idea where the attributed quote came from?

Don Ledger









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:05:19 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:57:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
 >researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

 >World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
 >Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
 >military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were
 >considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
 >parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
 >initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
 >bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
 >the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
 >been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some
 >leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
 >nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
 >American government and military who realized this were
 >terrified that the Soviets would find out.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
 >secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.


Dear List, Errol,

If the original story of Roswell were so explained, with missing
information, information which would explain what witnesses saw,
material observed which could not have come from one of our
devices, etc. And further, based on the word of some unknown
'long time' researcher, who got it from some of his 'friends' or
associates in the military and or engineering community, who
likely got it from... ad nauseum... then I would say, "Damned
Good Attempt" but no cigar, and, typical of the skepti- bunky,
ill-informed, Oldbarf-type presentation, one which demonstrates
how utterly gullible they think us to be.

As to the general pubic... public, sorry, well... who knows?

Jim









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   Dec > Dec 19

                          Filer's Files #51 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:27:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:01:43 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #51 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #51 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 19, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

NORTH POLE REPORT -- A UFO with a red nose light has been seen
conducting training missions over the Arctic. UFOs have also
been reported in New York, Washington DC, North Carolina,
Florida, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, California,
Chili, United Kingdom, and Italy. A lost underwater city has
been found in Cuba.

ANGELS -- Throughout ancient religious writings there are
descriptions of angels sent by God from the planet Heaven. These
angelic visitors are often described as arriving and departing
inside clouds or flying metallic objects. It seems reasonable
that these stories are based on truth and represent actual
visits by angels, visitors, watchers, extraterrestrials,
messengers, or what ever you choose to call them. Angels are
described as essentially spiritual and superhuman beings that
are messengers of God and visitors from another world. The
angels are often given credit for bringing writing and early
technology to Earth.  An Angel of the Lord spoke with Abraham in
the Torah, when he was 99 years old and childless, telling the
Jewish leader he had been chosen to be the father of a multitude
of nations. One angel brought the message of the entire Koran to
Mohammed and the Moslems. In Indian Vedic writings the topmost
authority in the material universe is known as Brahma, and he
lives in the highest material planetary system, called
Brahmaloka. The writings contain detailed descriptions of flying
craft and their operators.

In the Christian Bible it states: In the sixth month, God sent
the angel Gabriel to Nazareth and a town in Galilee, to a virgin
pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of
David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and
said, "Greetings you are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of
greeting this might be. But the angle said to her, "Do not be
afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with
child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name
Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most
High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his Father David,
and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, his kingdom
will never end. "How can this be" Mary asked the angel, "since I
am a virgin?' The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come upon
you, and the power of the Most High will over shadow you. So the
Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God! Luke 1-verses
26 to 35. Two thousand years later, much of world celebrates
this birth at Christmas time.
  Thousands of books have been written describing the angels
interactions with humans. Many people write and tell of
healings and other miracles caused by angels.. If even one
percent of the stories are true, we have angels here on Earth
today. If you visit the great temples and churches around the
world, you will find that many have accounts of an angel who
designed and oversaw their construction. Frequently, the
stories include sightings of strange shaped flying objects. You
can argue that these are only stories, but very strong evidence
exists throughout the world or the reality of these stories.
Look at the shapes, towers, domes of these great temples and
churches. Many have features that look exactly like UFOs that
were built at great cost and are considered engineering
marvels.

For example, the builders of the Blue Mosque in Istanbul
believed an angel had designed the structure and over looked
its construction. Is it simply by chance that its great domes
look like disk shaped UFOs? We only have to examine some of
these structures to learn a great deal about the visiting
angels and their vehicles. Not only do the domes have an
amazing similarity to UFOs on the outside, but also on the
inside of the buildings. These angels may have a greater effect
on the world than we realize. "For he will command his angels
concerning you to guard you in all your ways." So remember when
you enjoy Christmas, it all started with an angel. Merry
Christmas and Happy New Year.

STARSHINE SATELLITE NOW IN ORBIT

On December. 16, 2001, shuttle astronaut Dan Tani deployed
Starshine 2 into its own Earth-circling orbit. Starshine 2 is
an eye-catching aluminum sphere, about the size of a beach-ball
and covered with glistening mirrors. Like its sister satellite
Starshine 3, which was launched on September 29th, Starshine 2
reflects sunlight and looks to sky watchers on Earth much like
a pulsing 1st-magnitude star. Students and scientists plan to
track the pair by monitoring their flashes, and so learn how
satellite orbits decay in the outermost layers of Earth's
atmosphere. The 845 mirrors on Starshine 2, were polished by
thirty thousand students in 660 schools in 26 countries. Visit
the Heavens-Above.com website to find out when Starshine 3 will
glide over your town. Thanks to NASA

NEW YORK UNSEEN AIRCRAFT SOUNDS

CATSKILLS AND ADIRONDACK AREAS -- Eugenia Macer reports that
recently, an entire neighborhood in the Catskills heard
low-flying, invisible aircraft and reported this to the police
and to me. There was also a concomitant power outage. The
police could not recall the exact hour of the several power
outages nor were they interested in the invisible airplane
scenario. Yet they did not state they thought the folks who
reported invisible airplanes were "crazy." "It might be
terrorist activity near the reservoir," stated one policeman
though the location of the strange "auditing" was about twenty
miles from the reservoir.

Similar unseen aircraft noises were reported in New Jersey and
the South American country of Chili. The Chilean Police
authorities, Carabineros headquarters in San Pedro de Atacama
claim events of this type are common in San Pedro, and for this
reason, scant attention is given to them and they are not
entered in the police blotter unless the event has a level of
relevance that draws the attention all of the community's
residents. I am going to include this incident in my next book
entitled, "DOING BUSINESS IN THE ADIRONDACKS." Thanks Eugenia
Macer- lornis1@juno.com.

WASHINGTON DC -- TWO FLYING TRIANGLES

Watching the meteor shower on December 14, 2001, the witness
noticed two lights that seemed to be changing directions in
their movement. The brighter of the two was actually three
lights in a triangular formation. The smaller light followed
the triangular lights back and forth across the sky at 11:30
PM. They were faster than a jet airplane but not extremely fast
moving. They seemed to be at a medium altitude, perhaps 5,000
to 10,000 feet. This made the actual size of the object
undeterminable. After some time the triangular light vanished
in an instant and the other light turned in the opposite
direction and flew off. I thought this might be a military
aircraft since I live near Andrews Air Force Base, but the
triangular shape is what sparked my curiosity and made me think
that something unusual was going on. It may very well be an air
force plane, but it remains for me a UFO nonetheless. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

NORTH CAROLINA TRIANGULAR SHAPED OBJECT WITH MOVING SPHERES

GREENSBORO -- Saturday night, December 15, 2001, my wife and I
with a friend went out to eat at the Carrabbas restaurant. We
had a two-hour wait outside sitting on the bench; I noticed a
very, faint amber colored triangular shaped object moving to
the southeast at 7:20 PM. The UFO phenomena has always
interested me so I am always looking, but 99.9% of the time I
can identify anything in the sky, but this time it was strange.
As it got closer, I noticed that within its triangular
structure it appeared to have many spheres or "orbs"
interchanging within it. The entire craft remained the faint
amber color, although the spheres appeared to be more
translucent. My curiosity in the object attracted a crowd who
also saw the same thing. One lady let out a startled yell,
another said they were just balloons. However, the size of the
object at that altitude would have meant the balloon cluster
would be huge, and it retained a definitive shape, but the rest
of the craft did appear to morph somewhat. We watched it fly
off towards Fayetteville at a 1000 feet. Initially it looked
like a jetliner with its lights on shrouded by heavy cloud
cover. This was clearly unidentified. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

FLORIDA WE SAW A BRIGHT OVAL OBJECT WITH RINGS

BREVARD -- My daughter phoned to tell us, there was a really
strange light moving down the St. John's River. From our patio,
we scanned the sky at 7:30 PM, and saw the bright object moving
south above the river. I knew it was not an airplane because
there was no sound. When the object cleared the tree line we
nearly freaked out. It was a bright round object with rings
around it. I grabbed my binoculars and was amazed. The object
inside the rings seemed perfectly round and had a silver gray
color. There were bright flashes of light on the surface and it
looked like Saturn. It moved very slowly down the river and at
times seemed to hover over the water. After awhile it drifted
behind the clouds and we never saw it again. This was
definitely not of this world. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

OKLAHOMA GARY SEES LIGHTS IN THE SKY

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Gary England Chief Meteorologist, KWTV NEWS 9O
reports that on December 1, 2001, at about 10:15 PM, my wife,
two others and myself were in our car traveling south. One of
us pointed to the west and said, "What is that?" We had wild
scramble to get out of the car for a better look. For a moment,
the fuzzy lights appeared to be similar to the bottom side of
an airliner. But in what seemed like a split second, numerous
streaks of bright light were silently blazing across the
western sky toward the north. Like so many of you who saw the
event, I had never seen anything that could compare to it. It
was absolutely beautiful as well as a bit scary for a brief
period. I turned to my friend and commented that I certainly
hoped we were not observing incoming ICBMs. As it turns out, a
rocket was involved. It was a Russian Proton rocket, called a
SL-2 system. It was launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome in
Kazakstan at 2:04 PM Saturday afternoon and had placed
communication satellites in orbit. It then reentered the
atmosphere and went into a never to be forgotten long duration,
fragmented bright burn across a crystal clear night sky. Thanks
to Jim Hickman, thehickmanreport@yahoogroups.com

TEXAS ROD SHAPED OBJECT

WICHITA FALLS -- I was outside in my front yard on December 6.
2001, stargazing as I often do since I'm an amateur astronomer.
It was a very clear night southerly breeze. Looking up at 10:00
PM, I saw a rod shaped object it was white, about 4 foot long
and 6 inches around. It was only fifteen feet over my head and
barely cleared the roof of my house. It was moving from north
to south opposite the wind. I'm a very scientific minded
person. This is the second time in last few months I have seen
unusual things. The [thing] made no sound and had no lights it
was just very bright white and perfectly formed. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

WISCONSIN MULTIPLE LIGHTS

STEVENS POINT -- UFOWisconsin reports that the witness was in a
parking lot full of running semi-trailers on December 11, 2001,
so I am unsure as to whether there was noise to go with this
'sighting'. From 7:30 to 8:00 PM, I was out in the parking lot
having a smoke when I noticed what I perceived to be airplanes
off to the southwest. I didn't make much of it until I saw a
bright orange flash out of the corner of my eye. I then saw
five sets of little blinking lights, as they traveled from the
southwest to a direct southern view. I was joined by an older
woman, and pointed out the lights to her. We were trying to
figure out exactly how many there were, when again, the orange
flashes occurred. They looked very much like large meteors at
about 35 degrees. There were two bright orange flashes, running
in parallel, and they didn't seem to be at the right height for
a meteor (they started too low in the sky). The blinking
(twinkling?) lights then dispersed, and at least two headed
south, below the tree line. Within minutes, the lights were
gone. At this point, a guy came from behind a semi and said
'were you watching that? What was that?' Thanks to Jenny Hoppe,
UFOWisconsin.com, jenny@ufowisconsin.com (Jenny Hoppe)

UFOWisconsin has completed the investigation of the Beaver Dam
video from the Schwante's on July 9, 2001. It was determined
that the object was a kite. This was confirmed by MUFON members
Jeff Sainio and Richard Heiden. As for the other reports, we
are a new organization and we do not have the resources to
investigate every report that we receive, many come from
military training areas that are used by the National Guard and
Air Force. Many say we may contact them but we are unable to
follow up on that request. With low resources and financial
support we encounter these troubles. Many of the reports that
we have received we believe to be IFO's and also many
misinterpreted objects. As you know Nocturnal lights are hard
to decipher and that is the most common report that we receive.
We have had many very interesting reports; one was of a shadow
that was seen on the ground with no identifiable object to
correspond with the shadow. I attempted to contact the
individual to get more information with no luck. I thank you
for including our reports on Filer's Files and we hope to be
able to submit more cases as they are finished. Thanks to John
Hoppe Director UFOWisconsin

NEW MEXICO FIVE VERY BRIGHT SPHERES

ALBUQUERQUE -- On December 1, 2001, my son (26) and I were
driving on I-40, heading east down the hills into Albuquerque
at 9:20 PM, when we observed a formation of five very bright
spheres with long, arcing, glowing tails traveling slowly
north. The first three were in a triangular formation and much
brighter than the last two, which were offset from each other.
The latter two abruptly disappeared, and the remaining ones
continued to travel across the sky, disappearing behind the
northern mountain range. They were too slow to be meteorites,
and we could see them very clearly. My son is a physicist and
amateur astronomer and I am a teacher and book illustrator. We
can not explain what we saw. We discussed all the possible
explanations for our "sighting" and came to the conclusion that
they moved too deliberately to be "space junk" or huge bright
comets. They were definitely not airplanes, as they had very
bright, glowing trails that followed their arc of travel.
Occasionally they would flash with blue light. They were the
largest objects in the sky - impossible to ignore. Thanks to
Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA UFOs

SAN MATEO -- A physician was driving south on Highway 101 on
December 3, 2001, with his fianc=E9e when they noticed a large
patch of light about the size of four football fields likely
over the ocean. This light made a dark night as bright as day
for 5 or 6 seconds and then a spherical craft shot into the air
with a bright white and yellow tail. It had a diameter of
approximately 200-300 feet. It's tail turned red and then
yellow and it continued straight up until it was
indistinguishable from a star. This process took about 5
minutes. This is the first time either of us have seen anything
like this. I grew up in the U.S. and am a physician.

SANTA BARBARA -- Sean K. reports that on December 5, 2001, a
star-like object was observed in the southwest, at about 30
degrees above the horizon. Its position first made me think it
was Venus, but as I watched from my yard, it slowly rose and
moved east. I sat down, took a sightline off of a nearby tree
and within a minute confirmed the object was not stationary,
but could not be a star or planet because it was moving
opposite the rotation of stars. At no point did it move
quickly. After watching the object for about 5 minutes, my two
neighbors came out and we all watched. One got his binoculars
and we saw a metallic object, not at all like a star with
dimensional width as opposed to a point source. We observed it
for another five minutes and it was now about 70 degrees and
perhaps two feet at arm's length) from where I originally
sighted the object. The object then kind of disintegrated. It
become cloudy or fuzzy, and then stopped giving off light.
Vandeberg Air Force Base is right up the coast, so it could
have been some kind of drone target or observation balloon.
Witnesses were ages 35-41. Weather Conditions: dry, clear, no
clouds, visibility unlimited. Thanks to Sean K.

CUBA "LOST CITY" RUINS FOUND UNDER THE CARIBBEAN SEA

WESTERN TIP OF CUBA -- Canadian explorers using a miniature
submarine to probe the sea floor off the Guanahacabibes
Peninsula on Cuba's western tip have discovered stone
structures deep below the Caribbean Sea that may have been
built by an unknown civilization thousands of years ago. It
appears the remains of a submerged "lost city" were found that
include structures laid out like an urban area at a depth of
2,100 feet. The shapes resemble pyramids, roads, and buildings.
The Cuban Academy of Sciences and ADC a Canadian company plan
further exploration next summer. A Remotely Operated Vehicle
(ROV) was sent down to film parts of the 7.7-square-mile city
and confirmed the presence of huge, smooth, cut granite-like
blocks in perpendicular and circular formations, some in
pyramid shapes. The intriguing discovery provided evidence that
Cuba at one time was joined to mainland Latin America via a
strip of land from the Yucatan Peninsula and may have been the
reason for the fabled Atlantis. Thanks to SHnSASSY1@aol.com and
Translation (C) 2001 by Scott Coralles

CHILE: STARTLING UFO SIGHTING

LA FLORIDA -- The December 6, 2001, Diario "Las Ultimas
Noticias" reports that a gigantic and flaring light landed for
hours in the vicinity of San Ramon Hill, filling local
residents with fear. Ufologist Alberto Urquiza discarded the
possibility that the lights belong to helicopters, airplanes,
or planets. Jessica Serrano manages some tourist cabins in a
place known as Los Rulos saw a UFO on November 16 at 22:00
hours, with some friends at work. A white light emerged only
meters away from the place. "It lit up everything, it was as
big as a stadium.

Alberto Ruiz, a researcher with the GEO UFO group (Grupo de
Estudios  Ovnilogicos), notes that 17 sightings of unidentified
flying objects were  recorded between November 6 and the 25th
in the pre-Cordilleran region. "These are large lights that
descend to earth and remain suspended a short distance from the
surface. The witnesses have seen them at some 100 meters
distance. Some of the lights have remained suspended in mid-air
between four and six hours. Ruiz, who witnessed the phenomenon
on November 10th, stated that he received simultaneous phone
calls regarding sightings from five communities who were
observing the phenomenon. Thanks to Alberto Ruiz,
Lornis1@juno.com and SHnSASSY1@aol.com.

GREAT BRITAIN A LARGE BRIGHT DISK WITH TEAR SHAPED AURA

CARLISLE -- On December 12, 2001, the witness a former military
pilot reports, "I was watching the night sky in Northern
Britain. My attention was drawn to a large, bright object in
the western sky at 6:07 PM, much brighter than Jupiter or Mars
appeared. It was moving quickly east. I had a pair of
binoculars with me, and I focused on the object. It resolved
into a bright disc, with a large teardrop shaped aura around
it. I would estimate it's altitude to be 20.000 feet, and speed
to be about Mach 3 (relative to an object traveling at that
altitude). I observed it for about 30 seconds before it
abruptly disappeared. I could see no reason for its
disappearance. The ground temperature was -2c, and the sky was
clear and bright with no clouds. I have observed an unusually
large number of meteorites over the last 30 hours. I'm a
recently retired police officer and have never sighted anything
like this before. Thanks to NUFORC.

ROYAL AIR FORCE -- Rod reports, I recently received a letter
from my father a former Royal Air Force squadron leader in
World War II, who piloted planes across the channel to drop
resistance fighters into France. He had two UFO sightings. My
father wrote: the first sighting was in 1941, while I was on a
bomber course. Going home late at night on my own down an empty
lane on a black night, the only sight and sound coming from
aircraft taking off ahead on night-flying exercises. I suddenly
saw a light coming towards me at about 200 feet. It looked like
the nose light of a plane -- but no navigation lights showed.
Nor was there any sound. It passed silently over my head, and
as it went on the light vanished. Nobody else was near to
witness it, so I didn't tell anyone.

The second was outside Brighton Station waiting in the bus
queue in the late 1960s, one evening as it was getting dusk and
street lights were coming on. Suddenly, over the station roof
two headlights were switched on. They looked like Fred
McMurray's flying Ford fuelled on "Flubber" -- but the body of
the car was invisible. The man next to me saw it too, but we
just looked at one another and said nothing. The lights only
flicked on and off." Thanks to Rod

ITALY UFO NEWSFLASH #337

The Italian Center for UFO Studies reports that Italian
Sightings total 600 in 2001. With the 13 cases gathered for the
month of November, the Year 2001 sees the number of presumed
UFO sightings in Italy surpassing the 600-number mark. This is
twice the normal average for our country. Monthly listings of
the entire 2001 Italian UFO case log including all of November
are now available on the C.I.S.U. website
(http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi2001.htm). Thanks to Edoardo
Russo for the Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU,
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm.

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving
at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender
2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

Just in time for the holidays, the new UFO Store is open on our
web site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come
help our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at:

http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Our local Fire Station sign reads, "May the
angels protect You!"

Happy Holidays, and may God grant you all your Holiday wishes.

George A. Filer










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 19

             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'- Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:39:38 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:04:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'- Kelly


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
 >researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

 >World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
 >Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
 >military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were
 >considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
 >parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
 >initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
 >bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
 >the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
 >been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some
 >leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
 >nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
 >American government and military who realized this were
 >terrified that the Soviets would find out.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
 >secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

 >-----

 >UFO UpDates thanks Theo Paijmans for the lead.....


Sorry but I don't buy this explanation. It is true that up until
the last 10 to 15 years bombing runs were a real hit or miss
affair. Though this was well known by the US Airforce and
precautions were always made.

No test flight involving a Nuke fake or others wise ever went
without close support. Anything up to nine other aircraft would
be in the air travelling with the bomber. These would take
photos and confirm first hand were the bomb landed.

Also for a bomb to fall out of a bomber the bomb bay doors have
to be open. I'm not saying mistakes were never made, if fact
there were many unsuccessful test bombing runs and this still
happens today. But if the bomb bay doors are open and there is a
problem then the Captain would know about it and so would ground
control. There are also special paths bombers take when
something like this happens.

If the bomb did fall wether it be fake or other wise it would
for one thing burry itself deep in the ground so there would be
little evidence of it other than a deep hole. Secondly there
would be a recovery team sent in to either make such it was well
and truly buried and no one could get to it or their would
recover it.

Either way it wouldn't leave a trail of debris and the foil
wasn't anything new in the Airforces arsenal and any Airman or
Army personal worth his salt would have recognised it straight
away and not have reported it as anything else other than just
that.

Military personal are highly trained people, they are not ones
to panic or jump to conclusions unless there is good reason too,
which is what makes the Roswel case so interesting, they found
something well and truly outside of anything they had been
trained to expect or deal with on that day. If this happened
today they would know how to deal with it so we would never hear
about it. The fact that it was a first is what seems to be the
governing factor behind the public coming to know about it

The Military do make mistakes, but if they do they are the first
to know about it and very quick too deal with it. I cannot see
the US Airforce losing a nuke be it a test bomb or other wise
and then do nothing much about it or even not be sure were it
came down, even if it was a test rocket flight I still cannot
see this happening.

As I said above, something happened that day which was so
outside or what military personal had been trained for which
lead to the course of events we know today. Nukes were still so
TOP SECRETE back then that to say one went missing and then was
mistaken for a crashed UFO just doesn't cut it for me. Even the
test crash dummies explanation is still far fetch to me as the
military knows at the very least the general area were something
they are testing lands and they don't just leave it laying
around for just anyone to stumble upon.

Chris (Tophar)









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   Dec > Dec 19

                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:09:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

Next theory! :-)


Ta Ta.

Drew Williamson

Bombs and Bombers

13 February 1950
A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.

27 July 1956
A U.S. B-47 practicing a touch-and-go landing at Lakenheath
Royal Air Force Station near Cambridge, England went out of
control and smashed into a storage igloo housing three Mark 6
nuclear bombs, each of which had about 8,000 pounds of TNT in
its trigger mechanism. No crewmen were killed, and fire fighters
were able to extinguish the blazing jet fuel before it ignited
the TNT.

22 May 1957
A 10 megaton hydrogen bomb was accidentally dropped from a
bomber in an uninhabited area near Albuquerque, New Mexico owned
by the University of New Mexico. The conventional explosives
detonated, creating a 12 foot deep crater 25 feet across in
which some radiation was detected.

28 July 1957
A C-124 "Globemaster" transporting three nuclear weapons and a
nuclear capsule from Dover Air Force Base in Delaware to Europe
experienced loss of power in two engines. The crew jettisoned
two of the weapons somewhere east of Rehobeth, Del., and Cape
May/Wildwood, New Jersey. A search for the weapons was
unsuccessful and it is a fair assumption that they are still
there at the bottom of the ocean.

31 January 1958
Unbeknownst to Moroccan officials, a B-47 loaded with a
fully-armed nuclear weapon crashed at a U.S. Strategic Air
Command base 90 miles northeast of Rabat. The Air Force
evacuated everyone within 1 mile of the base while the bomber
burned for seven hours. During cleanup operations a large number
of vehicles and aircraft were contaminated with radiation.

5 February 1958
A B-47 collided with another jet and a hydrogen bomb was
accidentally dropped, never to be recovered, in the ocean off
Savannah, Georgia.

11 March 1958
A B-47 on its way from Hunter Air Force Base in Georgia to an
overseas base accidentally dropped an unarmed nuclear weapon
into the garden of Walter Gregg and his family in Mars Bluff,
South Carolina. The conventional explosives detonated,
destroying Gregg's house and injuring six family members. The
blast resulted in the formation of a crater 50-70 feet wide and
25-30 feet deep. Five other houses and a church were also
damaged; five months later the Air Force paid the Greggs $54,000
in compensation.

4 November 1958
A B-47 with nuclear bombs caught fire in mid-air, crashing in
Texas.

15 October 1959
A B-52 with two nuclear bombs collided in mid-air with a KC-135
jet tanker and crashed in Kentucky. Both bombs were recovered.

7 June 1960
A BOMARC-A nuclear missile burst into flamesafter its fuel tank
was ruptured by the explosion of a highpressure helium tank at
McGuire Air Force Base in New Egypt, New Jersey. The missile
melted, causing plutonium contamination at the facility and in
the ground water below.

24 January 1961
A B-52 with nuclear bombs fell apart in mid-air over North
Carolina, killing three of the eight crewmen and releasing two
24-megaton nuclear bombs. One bomb parachuted to the ground and
was recovered; the other fell free and landed in waterlogged
farmland, never to be found. When the recovered bomb was
studied, it was found that five of its six safety devices had
failed.

14 March 1961
A B-52 with nuclear bombs crashed in California while on a
training mission.

13 January 1964
A B-52 with two nuclear weapons crashed near Cumberland,
Maryland.

17 January 1966
A B-52 collided with an Air Force KC-135 jet tanker while
refueling over the coast of Spain, killing eight of the eleven
crew members and igniting the KC-135's 40,000 gallons of jet
fuel. Two hydrogen bombs ruptured, scattering radioactive
particles over the fields of Palomares; a third landed intact
near the village of Palomares; the fourth was lost at sea 12
miles off the coast of Palomares and required a search by
thousands of men working for three months to recover it.
Approximately 1,500 tons of radioactive soil and tomato plants
were removed to the U.S. for burial at a nuclear waste dump in
Aiken, S.C. The U.S. eventually settled claims by 522
Palomaresresidents at a cost of $600,000, and gave the town the
gift of a $200,000 desalinizing plant.

22 January 1968
A B-52 crashed 7 miles south of Thule Air Force Base in
Greenland, scattering the radioactive fragments of four hydrogen
bombs over the terrain after a fire broke out in the navigator's
compartment. The contaminated ice and airplane debris were sent
back to the U.S., with the bomb fragments going back to the
manufacturer in Amarillo, Tx. The incident outraged the people
of Denmark (which owned Greenland at the time, and which
prohibits nuclear weapons over its territory) and led to massive
anti-U.S. demonstrations. Comment from Scott Portzline,
happen@pipeline.com: Three of the four bombs were destroyed by
fire. A fourth bomb sank to the ocean bottom when the intense
heat melted the Arctic ice. Many Danish workers who cleaned up
the radioactive contaminated snow and ice suffered adverse
health effects or died in the following years. The bomb on the
ocean floor was finally recovered in 1979 by US Navy Seals and
Seabees. I was not a witness. I have pictures of some of the
equipment. Workers involved in the initial cleanup died later
from the exposure to radiation, according to their relatives
testimony.

24 July 1969
U.S. missile production was temporarily suspended due to a
serious fire at the Atomic Energy Commission's Rocky Flats
plutonium bomb factory. The surrounding countryside was
irradiated by plutonium, and several buildings at the factory
were so badly contaminated that they had to be dismantled.

2 November 1981
A fully-armed Poseidon missile was accidentally dropped 17 feet
from a crane in Scotland during a transfer operation between a
U.S. submarine and its mother ship.








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   Dec > Dec 20

             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:51:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:26:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:54 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'


Hello, all.

 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
 >researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

Again, an unidentified witness, that is not provable in any way.
Also, the "conversations with others" ? Who ? What ? Where?

 >World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
 >Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
 >military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were
 >considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
 >parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
 >initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
 >bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
 >the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
 >been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some
 >leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
 >nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
 >American government and military who realized this were
 >terrified that the Soviets would find out.

500 bombs? anyone have the accurate figgures? in 1947, we were
still on the learing curve on nuke-making. I really doubt that
we had that many, in fact I had a source who flew with the
509th, he said we had approxamately eight or nine functional
nukes in that early period. What threat? The Soviets were far
worse-off than we were at the end of WWII and were just barely
able to get the Bomb in '48 if they tried anything they would
have been shellacked. There was a lot of sabre-rattling but
B-36's  were able to patrol unmolested over Soviet airspace
until the advent of the MiG 15.

As far as the Soviet threat the best bomber they had was the
Tu-4, a nut for bolt copy of the B-29 - this caused all sorts of
problems for both sides in Korea - right down to the cranky
Wright 3350 engines. Note; this isn't a criticsum of Russian
engineering - they actually improved on some of the systems and
operating procedures of the B-29. We simply made the B-50 which
was a considerable improvement. And the B-36, and B-47 and the
B-45, et al, on line or very shortly on line.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
 >secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

Ah, Trinity was, as I understand it, a one-time only site. There
was no other testing there as I recall. Its a heck of place to
get to, very inconvenitent even from Roswell. Alamagordo is a
lot closer, and White Sands is... well... next door.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

Until the advent of the B-47 the way to drop a Nuke was the same
as the 'Daisy Cutters' that are used in Afganistan - stablized
by parachute, to give the bomber time to get away from the
bombee. When preparing for the Hiroshima/Nagasaki drops, they
trained for as much accuracy as could be expected. A half mile
is irrealivant with a nuke, precision isn't the thing with a
terror weapon, and that's what they were.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

This should be easily checked by someone who has more time than
I right now. Note the following:

1. There were a fixed number of B-29's
2. There were a fixed number of B-29's equipped to fly nukes.
3. There were a fixed number of B-29's in the 509th.
Conclusion: one should be able to find the plane in question
fairly easily by checking records and people.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

In 1947? I doubt it, unless we vaporized Corona, we didn't have
CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC TV or cable then, certianly not in
the New Mexican outback.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

Nuke or Shape, it would have at least made a large hole in the
earth, not flattened .

GT McCoy









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   Dec > Dec 20

             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:37:07 +1100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:33:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kelly


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>Source: Fate Magazine

 >>http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >>December 19, 2001

 >>Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >>by Jim Keith

 >Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
 >category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
 >NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >Next theory! :-)

 >Ta Ta.

 >Drew Williamson

 >Bombs and Bombers

 >13 February 1950
 >A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
 >Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
 >complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
 >first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
 >Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
 >coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
 >detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.
<snip>

Thank you Drew Willamson, the above confirms that if the Roswell
incident was a mishap involving a test nuke, or a real one, it
would have been documented as such. I noticed the Roswell
incident isn't included amongst these as being a mishap or
accident.

It is also interesting to note that the first example listed
above was said to be the first nuclear accident involving a
bomber and its pay load, so the Roswell incident wasn't a test
run mishap then.

Given that many of the examples would seem to be many times more
life threatening to the public and are still unclassified, it
would the Roswell one also be unclassified by now.

It would be nice to be able to wrap the Roswell thing into a
nice neat package so it could be put to bed once and for all,
but there are too many conflicting reports from that day for
this to happen with this wayward bomb theory. Well for me,
perhaps not so for others. It is more than likely a UFO got too
close to a real nuke test and was taken out by the EMP which
led to it crashing, or it was fired upon after getting too
close to a test site or test aircraft.


Chris (Tophar)







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   Dec > Dec 20

                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:57:56 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:35:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
 >category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
 >NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >Next theory! :-)

There's little doubt such things happened near Roswell. But if
there was even a remote chance this could have explained the
"Incident" The AF would have jumped at the chance. And so we're
left with Mogul.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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   Dec > Dec 20

                Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:45:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:37:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:35:14 EST
 >Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:56:09 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
 >>>Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>>We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
 >>>We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
 >>>got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
 >>>was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
 >>>merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
 >>>assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
 >>>and wants inside. No doubt.

 >>>The next thing we recalled was that it was no longer 7PM. It was
 >>>8:30PM. And we were inside the garage, the garage door closed,
 >>>and none of us including Pepe was wearing a coat. The coats and
 >>>his little coat, were inside the car. We had missing time for
 >>>about an hour plus a half. When we got inside the house from the
 >>>inside garage door, the phone was lit up with messages, the
 >>>pager was beeping, the cell phone was also beeping with messages
 >>>and ringing.

 >><snip>

 >>Hello Morty:

 >>This is just awful.

 >>As I understand it, these events, whatever they are, happen
 >>without warning and not on any sort of predicable schedule.

 >>Since they recur, and to more than a few people, I cannot help
 >>but wonder if there isn't some way to get solid evidence of
 >>something truly strange!

<snip>

 >>There must be other simple tricks, maybe some special dust on
 >>the floor... something hopefully, that might escape the notice
 >>of potential abductors assuming that it the problem?

 >>Whatever you (or anyone else) comes up with, don't put it on the
 >>list! Keep it to yourself until there is some sort of evidence
 >>besides missing time and misplaced clothing!

 >>Here's an example [snip]

 >>Here's another one. Carry a small tape recorder.. [snip]

 >>Just some thoughts, and best wishes.

 >>- Larry


 >Thank you Larry,

 >But I've tried everything. As a kid interested in radio, Ham
 >radio and electronics (from age about 8) thru hi school, I had
 >my own alarm, detection, capacitive sensors, etc. Nutting
 >worked. I used a huge rod which was largely a capacitor, used on
 >bomber aircraft from WW II. Dad worked for a major player in
 >fuel detection systems. I set up what was a very sophisticated
 >barrier with these huge caps. They were from ten to fifteen feet
 >long and were staged all around my room.

 >Nuttin!

 >Since then, I've tried more sophisticated and less electromechanical
 >systems.

 >Nuttin.

 >Since I began my own research about five years ago, I've
 >interviewed hundreds of perceived abductees and many who are
 >downright certain that the phenomena is quite real as
 >experienced. I am not entirely sure of that. These experiencers
 >have tried all sorts of detection. One lady uses a video
 >recorder going all night long.

 >Nuttin.

 >Which leads me to suspect that maybe, just maybe, this phenom is
 >real enough, but may occur outside of our own... fill in the
 >blank yourself... universe... bodies... consciousness...
 >whathehellever. I say this at the risk of being yelled at
 >maligned and otherwise a traitor.

 >We have an old saying in Sicilian... I won't repeat it.
 >It'll only get me in more trubbul.


I've heard much the same from others, all attempts at some
physical verification were dismal failures.

So what have we here, some sort of psychic, paranormal,
spiritual, mystical or other-dimensional manifestation which
leaves no physical clues?

If that is the case, what it taking peoples clothes off and
putting them back on backwards, on the wrong person, or not at
all?

Erased memories? Even that has some physical cause, just as an
erased computer disk must.

Is this a case of inner-space rather than outer space?

I vaguely recall the case of some person going thru a classic
abduction scene, vividly recalled. She was asleep on a couch I
think, with friends watching over her before, during and after
this 'event'. None of those observers noted anything at all out
of the ordinary... not even missing time.

In any of the above cases, I'm afraid the matter is outside the
realm of nuts-and-bolts UFOs; at least as I see them.

If UFOs themselves are not physical objects, I cannot claim any
further interest in them.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:35:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:45:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -



Roswell Bomb Explanation Bombs Out!

 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
r>esearcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

Apparently the source is not a first hand source.

Remove paragraph about the lack of atomic bombs after the war.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
 >secret balloon program Project Mogul,

Hmmmm... amusing. The source says Roswell was the "center" of
Mogul testing. If true, why couldn't Roswell top brass identify
pieces of a Mogul balloon train?

Oh, yes. I know. Mogul plays no part in this. It was a dropped
atomic bomb.

 >and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

"...would surely have been cause..."? What do you mean,
"surely"? Is this a historic fact or more speculation? Besides,
a bomb dropped in June/July 1947 wouldn't have been a secret
from the AF who would have engineered the cover up and it would
have been discovered by the AF in the 1990s in preparation for
their "Mogul Report." No need at present to cover up a bomb drop
by a spurious Mogul explanation.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

Yeah, right. I don't think bombs or test shapes "flatten" on
impact.

This explanation goes over like a Mogul Balloon made of Lead.










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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:51:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:35:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >>by Jim Keith

 >Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
 >category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
 >NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >Next theory! :-)

 >Bombs and Bombers

 >13 February 1950
 >A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
 >Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
 >complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
 >first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
 >Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
 >coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
 >detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.


Calling Larry Hatch..... any correlation between UFO sightings
and bomb drops?









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               Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:46:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:28:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:10:28 -0500

Aldrich wrote:

 >Raymond Fowler (UFO case files and other relevant
 >material, less his abduction research materials which
 >have been disposed of elsewhere)

Do you mean that Mr. Raymond Fowler has given up UFO
investigations? Who is the recipient of his abduction research
material?


Luis R. Gonzalez Manso








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             Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:31:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:31:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:56:46 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Bogus Quote on Astronaut UFO Sightings

 >Any idea where the attributed quote came from?

That's a good question, where is the oldest published occurrence
of it? I don't know.











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                   The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:25:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:34:11 -0500
Subject: The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology


The Brahms, Bach, and Beethoven of Ufology
By Alfred Lehmberg
www.alienview.net


What is more the soul of discomfiting dread than that enigmatic
word... unknown. Lurking around every corner and slithering in
every shadow it tormented us as children, vexes us as adults,
and hazards us into our old age as we face our inevitable
personal mortality... What does curiosity about it positively
achieve for us, and besides, isn't it said that curiosity killed
the cat?

The unknown, in so far as it is, is something that we are
perhaps too readily encouraged to dread, to fear, and to avoid
because the powers that "are", "were", and "will be" aren't
assured how they can work it into their game plan. They have
concerns regarding the maintenance of their coveted and oh so
convenient status quo.

Those "powers" prefer things as they are, assuredly, but if
those powers could figure a way to keep their institutional
heels on the obligatory necks of the abused masses, one could
profitably wager that the 'unknown' would quickly become the
'known' and life would go merrily but explicably on... saucers
could appear on the white house lawn tomorrow, if the top dogs
are convinced they stay on top...

UFOs don't play that. They don't stand still for repeatable
observations, they don't deign to be handily measured, and they
don't condescend to a narrow scientific sensibility.
Additionally, they could not give a spot of idle flatulence
regarding the profit of a convenient transitory. They would, of
necessity and experience, look for the long haul. Hog bellies,
junk margins, and beef futures must probably seem pretty short
sighted and repellent to them...

They don't play our science's game. This is the stumbling block
to forced mainstream interest in a phenomenon that
will-not-die... haunts the imaginations of men and women all
over the globe past, present, and near future, and is only
hinted at by a corrupt corporate media that is worried and
frustrated by its inability to be able to predict a sure profit
from the new paradigm. So, UFOs are artfully ridiculed in
throw-away adds for washing machines and parodied in the planned
obsolescence of big motor cars and computer chips.

Some would stridently argue that we have a bigger fish to fry
than UFOs. They couldn't be more wrong. UFOs are wound
inextricably in the core of our everyday lives or their abrupt
appearance would mean nothing to us or our culture at all. A
sudden appearance of UFOs _would_ be a massive disruption (most
welcome for _this_ writer) to an outdated and outmoded culture,
and a _huge_ social flap... so their relevance is more than
manifest. Besides, the erstwhile "bigger fish" that are so
fussily fretted over are likely to be wag-the-dog distractions
from a ufological reality likely on the lip of some massive but
inevitable breakout. That's this writers feeling at any rate.

It might be that the seemingly unknown would come to be found as
known all the time, just suspiciously back-burnered on the
sociological stove of an alternate, but valid, reality. Though
really... would we trust our government, those front men of the
unelected National Security State, to tell us the truth about
realities so far reaching and (forgive me) paradigm changing as
to question the validity of every institution a hapless
individual presently subordinates themselves to on this Earth?
But I digress...

What do we know about the unknown? Quite a lot as it turns out,
thank a lonely few. More than our white-bread mainstream is
comfortable with. We know that an unknown exists. If it didn't,
we wouldn't know fear. We're consumed with fear, real and
imagined, so we know that an unknown exists. UFOs are an unknown
with an exceptionally high giggle (fear) factor that the most
derisive laughter does not seem to be able to dissipate with any
real effectiveness, and it has an avoidance factor that goes of
the scale. So, what is it that we know about this unknown of
UFOs? Quite a lot, as has already been said.

In fact, as it turns out, a few have gone to great lengths to
quantify and qualify that unknown. UFOs have been parsed,
collated, and indexed like no other "programmed" unknown before
or since in a validated history. This writer won't insult the
reader with needless hyperbole. This initial investigation of
half a century ago regarding a legitimate ufological unknown was
not accomplished by some spurious effort of the suspect and
confabulating fringe. No, this FIRST investigation was
undertaken to satisfy the concerned interest of a privileged
tier of demonstrably qualified people occupying roles of the
highest government level, military rank, social position,
professional competence, and scientific chair... a list of early
interested and enthusiastic persons would read like a who's who
list of the greatest scientists, captains of industry, religious
leaders, and cultural icons of the time, it has been very
reliably reported.

As a reflection of the seriousness of this ufological
investigation (an investigation that was at that time bereft of
present day ufology's largely contrived giggle factor) only the
most serious of clear headed and educated men (most times) were
invited on board to officiate it. Ideally, as the "ACTUAL TRUTH"
was the desired result of any investigative effort, the men
chosen for the task would be preferred to refrain from
ideological cant, scientific bias, or religious complication and
strive to collect as much data regarding UFOs as was possible
given the obvious technological limitations.

It was at this point that an unusual serendipity graced Ufology,
and a contribution was allowed by three men who would ultimately
do for a serious Ufology what Brahms, Bach, and Beethoven did
for modern music. They defined Ufology, gave it an initial
scientific grounding, and placed it in a modern secular context
what had been heretofore mired in an ineffective religious one.
These three men were Edward Ruppelt, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, and Dr.
Jacques Vallee.

This intrepid trio of ingenuous individuals would never be
discredited, would never earn the obligatory assassination of
their characters, and would never have their images in any way
tarnished to this day. Additionally, honor and integrity has
remained intact with these men for half a century when the
reputations of others would be shot down in flames for daring to
question the forbidden ufological index. This is a testament to
their bullet-proof science and investigative straight shooting
-- to their clarity, calmness, and faultless reputations, but,
truly, an encouragement to the ambivalent reader that there just
might be something to the UFO conundrum after all!

For what will these men always be remembered? What is the
justification for the debt they be owed? They defined the
ufological unknown, good reader. They qualified it and
quantified it. They indexed and cross referenced it. They made
that one unknown just a little more known, and perhaps provided
a lever into a brave new future. They made it real.

How did these men go about making the unknown a little more
known. The process is actually quite simple, even if the
execution gets a little complicated. They simply performed the
required investigation.

Astonishing really.

They went where the data actually lead. They spent the required
effort to actually look into the dark, dark shadows, and
learned, more often than not, more than they'd bargained for.
They refrained from ridicule. They were willing to re-do their
work. They did not cleave to convenient tradition, complacent
dogma, or outmoded party lines. They open their eyes, shoved
their preconceived notions behind them, and with deep breaths
taken (third eyes squeegeed) prepared to see anew, again.

We don't do that presently. We, by way of a sullenly contrived
mainstream, take the low road of artful fallacy, reflexive
ridicule, and arbitrary illogic to satisfy the few at the
expense of the many. We endure the noisy negativism of noxious
naysayers like Michael ("Smirkster") Shermer, James ("Hiding
from his apostrophe") Oberg, Gerald ("No Conspiracy. No. Never")
Posner, and Philip ("It's VENUS...") Klass, and allow these
mainstream promoted front-men to cajole us into complacent
insentience with fatuously plausible strawmen, fallacious
falsehoods, and vapidly tenuous improbabilities. They are,
themselves, what they pretend to warn us against: barriers to
enlightenment, obstacles to brave science, and hurdles to an
efficacious cultural advancement!

Be not fooled.

If a freedom loving reader is remotely interested in being truly
informed, feels the dreaded damp pants leg, and hears that tired
admonition that it's a result of normal rain... then take some
steps to throw off a specious, unjustified, and hazardous wet
blanket and read three short books.

These books are by no means complicated to read, and though out
of print, they are not difficult to find. They have stood time's
test for veracity and validity, and they are assuredly books
that the aforementioned "Fatuous Four" would wish away from
reality if they could. These are books that are grounded in
science and lined with conscientiousness, while they bristle
with courage, honesty, and scholarly integrity.

These three books are:

"The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects" by Edward J.
Ruppelt. This book can be found in its entirety on line at:

http://www.alienview.net/rufo.htm

and is truly the first book to read in the series.

"The UFO Experience -- A Scientific Inquiry" by Dr. J. Allen
Hynek. Online soon.

"Anatomy Of A Phenomenon -- UFO's in Space" by Dr. Jacques
Vallee. Excerpts online Soon.

Not only are we "not in Kansas any more..." ladies and
gentlemen, these books begin to make it clear that we were NEVER
in Kansas, except in the imaginations of a select but non
elected few. Read them to feel your eyes open wide again. Read
them to know a child's enchantment. Read them to reawaken the
wonder lost in the events of the recent past. Read them to
expand the potential, quicken the spirit, and satisfy your human
sensibility. Read them to come alive, again, and regain, as I
have, real, encouraging, and true epiphany.

Curiosity killed the cat? That's an unrepentant and unsupported
load of traditionalist hoo-rah. Curiosity FED the cat. Ours will
feed us, too, and what a grand banquet it is to be. Read on.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's (...let's cut to the chase!) Alien
View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the indifferent.








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                          Secrecy News -- 12/20/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:10:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:33:45 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/20/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
December 20, 2001


**      HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS "HELD HOSTAGE" BY CIA
**      SUPREME COURT TO HEAR HARBURY CASE
**      PARTIAL RELEASE OF REAGAN RECORDS ANNOUNCED


HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS "HELD HOSTAGE" BY CIA

The Central Intelligence Agency recently moved to increase its
control over the historical record of U.S. foreign policy by
refusing to release four sets of documents to the State
Department until State historians agreed to new CIA conditions
governing publication of foreign policy documents.

The four document sets had been selected for publication in the
official Foreign Relations of the United States (FRUS) series, a
documentary history of U.S. foreign policy that is published by
the State Department.

But CIA officials told State historians in October that they
were "under instructions [from the Director of Central
Intelligence] not to proceed with business as usual" because of
Agency concerns about the release of historical documents
concerning intelligence.  The CIA intervened earlier this year
to delay publication of a FRUS volume on Indonesia and another
volume on Greece, both of which referenced CIA covert actions
during the 1960s.

Before releasing the four document packages, CIA demanded
adoption of a new Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the
Agency and the State Department Office of the Historian that
would significantly enhance CIA authority over the FRUS series.

According to the latest minutes of the State Department
Historical Advisory Committee, historian Elizabeth Cobbs Hoffman
"observed that those [document] packages were, in effect, being
held hostage."

Rutgers historian and Committee member Warren F. Kimball said
"The CIA was making it difficult to work with them under the
threat of 'blackmail'."

Robert Schulzinger, chairman of the Advisory Committee, said the
CIA's proposed Memorandum of Understanding "altered the way in
which the Foreign Relations series is published and released to
the public." Further, it "curbed the authority of historians
compiling the volumes and the authority of the Advisory
Committee to offer advice."

"The bottom line for the CIA," according to one informed
historian, "is their desire to be able to review the full final
version of every [FRUS] compilation and at the final moment have
the right to insist on additional excisions."

Marc Susser, the Historian of the State Department, emphasized
that FRUS "is the State Department's publication, and we cannot
let CIA take over the series."

The dispute was described in minutes of the October 15-16
meeting of the State Department Historical Advisory Committee
that were approved for release at a Committee meeting this week
and obtained by Secrecy News. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/hac1001.html#cia

Since then, "The compilations that the CIA had held hostage have
been returned to HO [the State Historian's Office] and we are
proceeding," an informed official said today.

But it appears that the CIA tactic achieved its intended goal of
compelling a change in State Department procedures, including
the adoption of an interim Memorandum of Understanding and a
commitment to conclude a new arrangement next year.

"We have 6 months within which to settle on a new MOU," the
official said.

In a separate offensive, CIA is pushing for a categorical
exemption from publication for the President's Daily Brief so
that no editions of this document could be published in future
FRUS volumes.


SUPREME COURT TO HEAR HARBURY CASE

Can government officials be held accountable for lying to the
public? What if an American citizen is deprived of
constitutional rights as a consequence of an official lie?

Those are some of the urgent questions raised by the case of
activist attorney Jennifer Harbury that will be taken up by the
Supreme Court sometime next year.

Attorney Jennifer Harbury contended that Clinton Administration
officials lied about the fate of her late husband, Guatemalan
guerrilla Efrain Bamaca, and that her rights to sue the
government on his behalf were impaired as a result.

In a noteworthy December 2000 ruling, the DC District Court of
Appeals found that the government is not immune to such claims.

"When public officials affirmatively mislead citizens in order
to prevent them from filing suit, they violate clearly
established constitutional rights...," the Court ruled.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/harbury.html

Upon petition from former Secretary of State Warren Christopher
and others, the Supreme Court agreed on December 10 to review
the case.

For further background on the case see "Court Will Review Right
to Secret Data" in the December 11 Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22995-2001Dec10.h
tml

and "High court to decide if government officials can be
punished for lying to public" published by the Freedom Forum:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15543


PARTIAL RELEASE OF REAGAN RECORDS ANNOUNCED

Out of the 68,000 pages of Reagan Administration records that
were required by law to be released in January 2001,
approximately 8,000 pages will be released in January 2002, the
National Archives announced today.

Release of the records was delayed by the Bush Administration,
which imposed new restrictions on release of the records in a
recent executive order.

"In accordance with Executive Order 13233, representatives of
former President Reagan and President Bush have reviewed these
records and have chosen not to assert any constitutionally based
privilege," the Archives stated in a press release:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/12/reagan.html

"Today's action shows that President Bush's executive order can
and will work as intended  to facilitate appropriate and
expeditious release of presidential records consistent with the
Constitution and the [presidential records] act," wrote White
House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales in a Washington Post op-ed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3912-2001Dec19.html

There was no word when the remaining 60,000 pages of records
would be released.

Historians and public interest organizations have filed a
lawsuit to overturn the executive order, alleging that it
violates the provisions of the Presidential Records Act.


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
         subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
         http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:10:32 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:36:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates


 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
 >researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

Rendered suspect? More like unreliable at best!! This so called
source is just as valid as various people and their so called
"top-drawer" "top notch" "never told a lie in their life"
"totally reliable" intelligence community sources who spun tales
and stores about mass landings in the desert SW back in 97' and
alleged ET contact and so forth.

 >World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
 >Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
 >military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were

I don't recall that the government actually made that claim..
This recollection is on the basis of seeing tens of thousands of
pages of cold war history documents over the years. On the other
hand somebody in the press may have floated that story out...

 >considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
 >parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
 >initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
 >bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
 >the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
 >been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some

They were actually still together and stayed together as the
nuke program was still considered high priority.

 >leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
 >nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
 >American government and military who realized this were
 >terrified that the Soviets would find out.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top

The mogel program was at White Sands/Fort Bliss as I recall. The
so called Trinity blast site was essentially guarded by MP's
until it was fenced off in 47. From what I recall of the
declassified historys nothing happened at Trinity.

 >secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

So called fine-tuning had already been done by the 509th at
Wendover where they were able to configure the Nordon Bomb sight
and improve accuracy of the drops. As I recall it was a 250
foot aiming circle.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

No "live" drops were done at Roswell.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

If the source had actually seen where test Atomic bombs were
dropped, he would have said that when dropped they make a large
impact crater rather then a crater created by an explosion.

Just another tale/story/theory turd that somebody has
breathlessly unloaded to Keith and it got breathlessly published
in FATE. As an aside I recall somebody floated a similar story
back when the Moore/Berlitz book came out in 80 and it
crashed.... pun intended.

Cheers,

Robert









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             Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:59:04 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:42:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:45:42 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:35:14 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:56:09 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
 >>>>Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>>We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
 >>>>We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
 >>>>got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
 >>>>was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
 >>>>merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
 >>>>assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
 >>>>and wants inside. No doubt.

 >>><snip>

 >>>Hello Morty:

 >>>This is just awful.

 >>>As I understand it, these events, whatever they are, happen
 >>>without warning and not on any sort of predicable schedule.

 >>>Since they recur, and to more than a few people, I cannot help
 >>>but wonder if there isn't some way to get solid evidence of
 >>>something truly strange!

<snip>

 >I've heard much the same from others, all attempts at some
 >physical verification were dismal failures.

 >So what have we here, some sort of psychic, paranormal,
 >spiritual, mystical or other-dimensional manifestation which
 >leaves no physical clues?

Dear Larry, List, Errol,

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. Let's look at why it is that at
no time whatever, has anyone been able to catch the little
bastards in the act. Why have not even engineers and scientists
(those who've tried) not been able to obtain either readings or
other anomalies in the EM spectrum, photos or any other 'proof?'

Either the little bugs are... sorry, I meant to write
'buggers'... either the little buggers are able to mask their
presence or their presence is not... present. And when taken,
neither are our presences... present. Frankly, I still hold to
the physical cause. But there is that doubt... I have always
felt that I was in some other, altered state, during those
times. Is that due to the high technology in use or another
state or dimension?

I sure in hell don't know.

 >If that is the case, what it taking peoples clothes off and
 >putting them back on backwards, on the wrong person, or not at
 >all?

 >Erased memories? Even that has some physical cause, just as an
 >erased computer disk must.

 >Is this a case of inner-space rather than outer space?

 >I vaguely recall the case of some person going thru a classic
 >abduction scene, vividly recalled. She was asleep on a couch I
 >think, with friends watching over her before, during and after
 >this 'event'. None of those observers noted anything at all out
 >of the ordinary... not even missing time.

 >In any of the above cases, I'm afraid the matter is outside the
 >realm of nuts-and-bolts UFOs; at least as I see them.

 >If UFOs themselves are not physical objects, I cannot claim any
 >further interest in them.

 >Best wishes

Whatever the phenomena, there are no answers. Just a whole lotta
questions. Ain't no time to give up. Not until the bastards land
and aks for our leader. At which point, we'd hafta scratch our
heads and say, "Wull, uh... Duh?!!"

Merry, Happy or whatever turns yous on. Which I suspect got
bubbles. Gripple-Up. Addict a buddy and get a gallon jug free.


Jim









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   Dec > Dec 21

                      UFO TV Programme On The Internet

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:50:23 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:44:45 -0500
Subject: UFO TV Programme On The Internet


Hi Errol/UFO Update:

The following release describes a UFO programme venture on the
Internet which I have been involved with. I hope that the
audience for UFO Update will support this venture.

Regards,

Bill Chalker

-----

As part of a new venture on the internet a new UFO TV show will
be available. Bill Chalker, author of 'The Oz Files - The
Australian UFO Story', and Doug Moffett, New South Wales state
director of the Australian UFO Research Network, are hosting the
"UFO" show on Banana TV via the internet.

Through Banana TV, Screen Corporation Limited in Sydney,
Australia, is providing a range of entertaining and informative
programmes covering themes as diverse as "surviving" the TV show
'Survivor', dog training, educational issues and genealogy.

You can access Banana TV on the internet via:

http://www.bananatv.com

A TV will appear on your computer screen with at least 8
programme channel icons covering ininitially the following
categories: Health, Life and Style; School; People and passions;
Music and entertainment; Vehicles; Techno; Arts; Surviving
Survivor. The UFO programme can be found in the "People and
passions" section. The programmes are intended for broadband
internet but 56kbps will allow a reduced, but watchable view.
The full screen impact is seen with a broadband connection. For
56kbps press low bandwidth and then select "UFO" in the "People
and Passions" section. As with the other shows "UFO" will
eventually have multiple episodes which can be accessed at
anytime via the Banana TV site. Each programme lasts for about 7
to 8 minutes, with a brief "ad" break in the first minute.

The first episode of 'UFO' on Banana TV went live on Wednesday,
December 5th, 2001. It introduces the hosts, Bill Chalker and
Doug Moffett. Other programmes will cover a wide range of issues
including abductions, UFO investigations and UFOs & culture.
Further episodes have been made and will be put up on the
programme web site over coming weeks. The objective of the
programme series is to provide a guide through the thought
provoking subject of UFOs, in all its diverse forms.

The hosts are contactable via ufo@bananatv.com

Support this exciting venture in communicating the UFO subject
to a diverse audience by visiting the site regularly and telling
your friends about it. Also check out the other programmes on
Banana TV.









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   Dec > Dec 21

             Decoding E.T.: In Search of a Cosmic Rosetta Stone

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 21 Dec 2001 05:54:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:59:38 -0500
Subject: Decoding E.T.: In Search of a Cosmic Rosetta Stone


Comment follows article...(BH)

Decoding E.T.: In Search of a Cosmic Rosetta Stone

By Doug Vakoch
SETI Institute
posted: 07:01 am ET
20 December 2001

Analogies can provide a useful role for anticipating what might
happen if, some day, we detect a signal from extraterrestrials.
To briefly recap our last article in this series, some scholars
have suggested that we might gain insights into decoding
extraterrestrial messages that may be embedded in such a signal.
These insights, they suggest, come from the experience that
linguists have gained in the course of decoding ancient
languages on Earth.

Decoding E.T.: Ancient Tongues Point Way To Learning Alien
Languages The modern Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
(SETI) is based on the premise that a systematic search of the
cosmos may reveal artificial signals, transmitted either
intentionally or, somewhat like the leakage of TV and radio
signals from Earth today, as electromagnetic noise.

Messages from ET
In the early 1960s, when SETI was just getting started, not much
was known about the history of earlier proposals to communicate
with life beyond Earth. So when SETI pioneer Frank Drake started
to think about the sort of message we might some day receive
from extraterrestrials, he had to start from scratch.

The Martian Morse Code Challenge
When people started thinking about how to communicate with
potential Martians, a new challenge arose. Since the Moon is
relatively close to Earth, earlier proposals to signal possible
inhabitants of the Moon relied on huge diagrams "drawn" on
Earth's surface.

Messages to the Moon: Before Modern SETI
The first modern Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI)
was conducted over 40 years ago. In 1960, Frank Drake's Project
Ozma sought signs of intelligent life around two nearby stars by
listening for radio signals.

As a case in point, the key to decoding ancient Egyptian
hieroglyphics was found in a slab called the Rosetta Stone,
found by Napoleon=92s army during a French military campaign in
Egypt. This stone contained the same text written in three
languages. And because European linguists were extremely
familiar with one of the three languages, they could draw links
between the three versions and thereby translate the writing
system they hadn=92t previously been able to crack: Egyptian
hieroglyphics.

Unfortunately, if we get a message from extraterrestrials, we
can=92t count on them laying out direct translations between one
of their languages and, say, English or Swahili. And that, say
anthropologist Ben Finney and historian Jerry Bentley, could
limit how much we can learn from extraterrestrials. While we may
be able to understand basic mathematics and astronomy, once
extraterrestrials begin to describe their cultures, interstellar
comprehension may suffer considerably. If fact, Finney and
Bentley point out that early successes in decoding scientific
parts of an extraterrestrial message might actually stand in the
way of understanding more culturally-specific parts of the
message.

As an analogy, they note that when European scholars began
decoding ancient Maya hieroglyphs, their earliest successes were
in understanding the basic numbering system used by the Maya, as
well as their calendar systems, which were based on the visible
motions of the Moon and Sun. In short, math and science provided
the foundation for communication, just as many SETI scientists
have predicted will be the case for interstellar communication.

This success in making sense of part of the Maya glyphs
reinforced an idea that had been around among European scholars
for centuries, going back to ancient Greek hopes that
hieroglyphics from the Old World=97from Egypt, to be precise=97had
the power to represent ideas directly, and thus escape some of
the messiness of spoken language.

The view that complex ideas could be shown directly through
symbols can be traced back at least as far as Plotinus, an
Egyptian-born Roman philosopher who followed the path of Plato.
In Plato=92s philosophy, the bedrock of reality is not in the
things that we can see with our eyes and feel with our hands.
Instead, ultimate reality consists of underlying "ideas" that
serve as the blueprints for the material world. And Plotinus
thought that Egyptian hieroglyphs offered a way to symbolize
these ideas directly, without the intermediary of merely human
languages. As author Maurice Pope summarizes Plotinus=92 view of
Egyptian hieroglyphs, "Each separate sign is in itself a piece
of knowledge, a piece of wisdom, a piece of reality, immediately
present."

As it turns out, Plotinus was wrong. But he was in good company.

For centuries, most eminent Egyptologists agreed with Plotinus.
They dismissed the possibility that hieroglyphs could represent
something as mundane as spoken language. But in the 1820s,
French linguist Jean-Francois Champollion used the Rosetta Stone
to draw parallels between the as-yet undeciphered Egyptian
hieroglyphics and both well-understood Greek and a form of
Egyptian script used widely in business transactions. As a
result, Champollion was able to show that hieroglyphics often do
represent sounds, much like other languages. Though Plotinus=92
dream was broken, so too was the mystery of Egyptian
hieroglyphics.

SETI scientists can learn an important lesson from the history
of decoding hieroglyphics. Initial assumptions about the nature
of the message can lead us astray=97especially when those
assumptions help us decode parts of the message. While it=92s true
that some of the Mayan characters refer directly to numbers and
months, the vast majority doesn=92t. The key then to decoding
ancient hieroglyphics, and perhaps also messages from
extraterrestrials, is to keep open to new possibilities, even if
they seem to contradict initial successes.

What can we do to keep open minds at this early stage of SETI,
before we have detected signals from distant stars? One step we
are taking at the SETI Institute is to draft some sample
messages of our own - not to be transmitted, but to learn more
about the process of coding and decoding messages, and to
challenge ourselves to think of new possibilities for what we
could say in interstellar messages, and what we might some day
be able to detect from other civilizations.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Comment: This article gives us insight on how SETI scientists
approach the problem of communication with ET and at the same
time illustrates the shortsightedness in their approach.

One basic assumption is that ET has not yet communicated. A
second assumption is that ET has the same limitation of mind and
technology as we have. That ET will use a radio or laser signal
to communicate.

Excluded are any studies of possible ET communication in UFO
studies because UFO studies are largely ignored by SETI
scientists. So are studies of psychic phenomena.

If ET uses telepathy to communicate, then no rosetta stone is
needed. ET will already understand our thoughts and our
languages. It is an "outside the box" solution. We already have
mind-reading machines that were under development for the past
quarter century. ET, with superior technology, may have
developed superior mind-reading machines, if needed, and can
interpret our thoughts or influence them as the case may be. ET
will, in turn, be able to communicate signals that we
understand, not some enigmatically encoded signal.

If SETI scientists want to get innovative I would suggest that
they start to develop telepathic receivers. They may just
intercept that signal they have been waiting for. They seem to
have developed a lot of patience over the years.

Just food for thought...


Sincerely,

Bill Hamilton








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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:59:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:04:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:54 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'


 >Source: Fate Magazine

 >http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >December 19, 2001

 >Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >by Jim Keith

 >My source on the following story has asked me to be very vague
 >in my description of him. He describes himself as "a longtime
 >researcher/instructor of engineering at a school in New Mexico."
 >I know specific details of his professional work, as well as the
 >names of his own sources for the following information, but he
 >has asked me not to mention them because of potential problems
 >involving security clearances. Speaking with me recently, he
 >told me about his knowledge of what actually took place in
 >Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947-an event which has been
 >alleged by many researchers to have been the crash of an alien
 >spacecraft. His information is gleaned from conversations with
 >others in the engineering field and in the military who were
 >living in or near Roswell at the time. I realize that without
 >identifying my source, the following information is rendered
 >suspect; with that in mind it may still open up new areas of
 >research that will crack the Roswell case. Here is the gist of
 >what he told me:

 >World War II was over, and America had a secret to conceal.
 >Although the government said there were 500 atomic bombs in the
 >military's arsenal, that was a lie. There were none that were
 >considered reliable. Due to a number of factors-corrosion of
 >parts kept in storage, batteries that didn't work, faulty
 >initiators, and other reasons - there were no usable nuclear
 >bombs in American military stockpiles. After the end of the war,
 >the operational team in charge of the nuclear arsenal had also
 >been dispersed, many of them going to other jobs, and some
 >leaving the military altogether. In short, there was no real
 >nuclear deterrent against the Soviet threat, and members of the
 >American government and military who realized this were
 >terrified that the Soviets would find out.

 >The American brass sought to remedy the situation. As part of
 >this fix, testing of nuclear delivery systems was moved during
 >1945 and 1946 from Wendover, Utah, to the 509th U.S. Army Air
 >Force Bomb Group unit in Roswell, New Mexico. At the time,
 >Roswell was the center of much secret testing, including the top
 >secret balloon program Project Mogul, and 'non-critical' testing
 >at the Trinity blast site. One job that was given to the 509th
 >was the operational testing of nuclear bombs, including
 >fine-tuning the ability to hit targets accurately.

 >Another secret: According to my source, military bombers were
 >notoriously unreliable in hitting targets, sometimes missing
 >their mark by as much as half a mile. It was given to the 509th
 >to improve that record, and to make it possible to deliver
 >bombs, particularly nuclear bombs, with greater accuracy. 'Live'
 >as well as 'dummy' bombs were flown in from Sandia to Roswell,
 >where they were tested and used in target drops.

 >It was in this environment that the most famous of all UFO
 >stories was born. According to my source, the true story behind
 >the alleged UFO crash was that there was an accident involving a
 >B-29 flying from the Army Air Force Base in Sandia (Albuquerque)
 >to Roswell. From the statements of men in the military who were
 >there at the time, my source states that either an atomic bomb
 >or what is termed a "bomb shape", or "test shape", the shell of
 >a nuke lacking explosives and atomic capability, and sometimes
 >filled with concrete to add weight, was accidentally or
 >purposefully jettisoned above Corona, New Mexico, directly on
 >the flight path between Sandia and Roswell. Along with the bomb,
 >metal foil used for radar jamming, termed "chaff", may have also
 >been dropped.

 >The accidental dropping of a nuclear weapon would surely have
 >been cause enough for a cover-up. If this information had leaked
 >to the public, there might have been an extremely negative
 >reaction.

 >As an aside, my source mentioned that either an armed atomic
 >bomb or "test shape," flattened by impact with the
 >ground, could have looked like a squashed disk.

 >-----

 >UFO UpDates thanks Theo Paijmans for the lead.....

I believe this article was published almost 2 years ago
2000-01-01. It was bunk then and is bunk now. Wild nonsense from
somebody who obviously hadn't studied the evidence.

MOGUL was not located at Roswell. The 509th was moved from
Wendover to Roswell. Operation Crossroads was conducted in 1946.
Roswell wasn't connected with Trinity site, etc, ad nauseum.

I also seem to recall that Keith had died.... Where were these
claims, about having 500 nuclear weapons, published? Reminds me
of people falsely claiming that area 51 is near Roswell, that
Pappy Henderson was a practical joker who just made up his story
about flying Roswell wreckage, that William H. Blanchard was a
loose cannon... guess that is why he had 4 paromotions after
Roswell and also had served as the Air Force Inspector General
before dying of a heart attack as the Vice-Chief of staff of the
USAF with 4 stars.....

Must be a quiet news week.

Stan Friedman









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               Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:1:1 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:06:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:46:39 +0100

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:10:28 -0500


 >Aldrich wrote:

 >>Raymond Fowler (UFO case files and other relevant
 >>material, less his abduction research materials which
 >>have been disposed of elsewhere)

 >Do you mean that Mr. Raymond Fowler has given up UFO
 >investigations? Who is the recipient of his abduction research
 >material?

 >Luis R. Gonzalez Manso

Yes, to the first question. He is moving to Maine and wishes to
devote time to teaching astronomy. He is still interested in the
UFO subject.

I don't know who obtained the abduction files, it is
confidential. You might ask Mr. Fowler.


Jan Aldrich








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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:56:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:23:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>Source: Fate Magazine

 >>http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=69

 >>December 19, 2001

 >>Roswell UFO Bombshell

 >>Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00

 >>by Jim Keith


 >Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"

 >category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.

 >NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >Next theory! :-)

 >Ta Ta.

 >Drew Williamson


 >Bombs and Bombers
 >13 February 1950
 >A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
 >Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
 >complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
 >first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
 >Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
 >coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
 >detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.

 >27 July 1956
 >A U.S. B-47 practicing a touch-and-go landing at Lakenheath
 >Royal Air Force Station near Cambridge, England went out of
 >control and smashed into a storage igloo housing three Mark 6
 >nuclear bombs, each of which had about 8,000 pounds of TNT in
 >its trigger mechanism. No crewmen were killed, and fire fighters
 >were able to extinguish the blazing jet fuel before it ignited
 >the TNT.


Etc., etc.

Hi Drew,

The problem with this list is there is no documentation. I
recognize a number of these incidents. Several more that are
known and not listed and a few on the list seem to come out of
imagination.

I served in the US Army in several nuclear capable units, and
we did extensive training in nuclear accidents/incidents. Nuclear
detonation is highly unlikely, but fires from the burning of the high
explosives in the device or spread of radioactivity are much more
likely dangers.

As for Roswell as a nuclear accident, I heard this back to 1995.
The 509th trained with dummy devices, dropping trainers of similar
size and weight, prior to the atomic attack on Japan. No doubt this
was part of there training for the unit's annual evaluation which was
scheduled for August 1947.

Supposedly the Air Force checked this aspect out very seriously as
it was a "sexy" answer to the Roswell incident. However, in speaking
with one of the searchers, he told me that they found nothing to
indicate that such an accident was involved.

Jan Aldrich









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   Dec > Dec 21

                        The Science of Ball Lightning

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:54:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:54:33 -0500
Subject: The Science of Ball Lightning

http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/phil_maths/news/balllight_template1.html

Press Release - The Science of Ball Lightning
Chemical models of ball lightning from atmospheric electricity
- a theme compiled and edited by John Abrahamson

A spectacular phenomenon
This December 2001 theme issue of Philosophical Transactions
deals with the phenomenon of ball lightning, a rarely seen and
slow-moving luminous phenomenon usually associated with
thunderstorms. A collection of previously unpublished sightings
is presented, including close-up encounters describing the
detailed internal structure of the balls. Many of these
observations are from scientifically or technically trained
people, probably doubling the number of such observations
available in the literature

In addition, for the first time, sufficient believable evidence
from a number of high energy observations has been put together
to demonstrate that ball lightning, distinctly uncoupled from
any normal lightning, can be energetic enough to boil away large
quantities of water.

Competing theories
The issue goes on to focus on theories to explain the phenomena;
theories where the energy of the ball is tapped from the
electricity of a storm and stored by chemical means to be
released during the lifetime of the ball.

The issue is edited by Dr John Abrahamson of Canterbury
University in New Zealand. "Different but strongly held theories
of ball lightning are a feature of this theme collection," says
Dr Abrahamson. "All can relate to the wide range of properties
ascribed to ball lightning and make stimulating reading. The
three main theorists, all who have also done experimental work,
are David Turner (an English physical chemist based in the US),
Vladimir Bychkov (a Russian physicist based in Moscow) and
myself (a chemical engineer). We have all seen each other's
contributions and have commented on them to each other, with the
comments sometimes inserted into the papers in this collection.
This critical confrontation has forced us all to broaden our
thinking and some new insights have come up in the process."

The different models presented consider hydrated ions/ water
droplets, polymer threads and metal nanoparticle chains as
components of ball lightning. The corresponding energy releases
are through ion reactions, surface electrical discharge, and
surface oxidation of metal nanoparticles.

Discussed separately are a limited number of balls which showed
high energy impact on their surroundings - above that
traditionally expected from chemical energy storage. These
observations and others where ball lightning passed through
walls and window glass have been given new interpretations
consistent with the nanoparticle model. This metal oxidation
model also relates closely to recently made self-heating
luminous metal materials with fine porous structure, which are
the topic of one of the papers.

A penetration of ball lightning into flesh with metal particle
oxidation may be the explanation for observed charred limbs, and
also a potential explanation for the weird "human combustion"
phenomenon.

Make your own =91ball lightning=92
Small bodies (less than 10 mm diameter) with the properties of
ball lightning can be routinely made in the laboratory. Careful
laboratory observations of these from lightning-like discharges
confined within eroding walls are presented. These discharges
reproducibly produce freely floating and bouncing small
plasmodial balls with many of the properties seen with natural
ball lightning. "The experimental work described in this issue
indicate that some of the conditions necessary for production of
ball lightning are understood," concludes Dr Abrahamson. "But
larger =91natural-sized=92 laboratory examples are still being
sought. I, like the other authors in this collection, am
frustrated at not being able to reproduce the full phenomenon in
the lab, realising that this is the acid test of any theory. In
spite of this, we all regard our theories as explaining most, if
not all, natural ball lightning observations, in sometimes
conflicting ways!"


Table of Contents:

http://www.catchword.com/rsl/1364503x/v360n1790/contp1-1.htm


The Royal Society is the independent scientific academy of the
UK, dedicated to promoting excellence in science Registered
Charity No 207043. Copyright =A9 2001 The Royal Society. All
rights reserved

-----

UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist for the lead:

http://www.anomalist.com/








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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:06:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:56:34 -0500

 >>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

<snip>

 >Hi Drew,

 >The problem with this list is there is no documentation. I
 >recognize a number of these incidents. Several more that are
 >known and not listed and a few on the list seem to come out of
 >imagination.

 >I served in the US Army in several nuclear capable units, and
 >we did extensive training in nuclear accidents/incidents. Nuclear
 >detonation is highly unlikely, but fires from the burning of the high
 >explosives in the device or spread of radioactivity are much more
 >likely dangers.

 >As for Roswell as a nuclear accident, I heard this back to 1995.
 >The 509th trained with dummy devices, dropping trainers of similar
 >size and weight, prior to the atomic attack on Japan. No doubt this
 >was part of there training for the unit's annual evaluation which was
 >scheduled for August 1947.

 >Supposedly the Air Force checked this aspect out very seriously as
 >it was a "sexy" answer to the Roswell incident. However, in speaking
 >with one of the searchers, he told me that they found nothing to
 >indicate that such an accident was involved.

Hello, all, Jan


Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
embellished, some I've never heard of.


GT McCoy










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                Re: The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:08:55 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:47:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology -


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: The Brahms, Bach & Beethoven of Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:25:04 -0600


 >The Brahms, Bach, and Beethoven of Ufology
 >By Alfred Lehmberg
 >www.alienview.net


 >What is more the soul of discomfiting dread than that enigmatic
 >word... unknown. Lurking around every corner and slithering in
 >every shadow it tormented us as children, vexes us as adults,
 >and hazards us into our old age as we face our inevitable
 >personal mortality... What does curiosity about it positively
 >achieve for us, and besides, isn't it said that curiosity killed
 >the cat?

 >The unknown, in so far as it is, is something that we are
 >perhaps too readily encouraged to dread, to fear, and to avoid
 >because the powers that "are", "were", and "will be" aren't
 >assured how they can work it into their game plan. They have
 >concerns regarding the maintenance of their coveted and oh so
 >convenient status quo.

 >Those "powers" prefer things as they are, assuredly, but if
 >those powers could figure a way to keep their institutional
 >heels on the obligatory necks of the abused masses, one could
 >profitably wager that the 'unknown' would quickly become the
 >'known' and life would go merrily but explicably on... saucers
 >could appear on the white house lawn tomorrow, if the top dogs
 >are convinced they stay on top...

 >UFOs don't play that. They don't stand still for repeatable
 >observations, they don't deign to be handily measured, and they
 >don't condescend to a narrow scientific sensibility.
 >Additionally, they could not give a spot of idle flatulence
 >regarding the profit of a convenient transitory. They would, of
 >necessity and experience, look for the long haul. Hog bellies,
 >junk margins, and beef futures must probably seem pretty short
 >sighted and repellent to them...

 >They don't play our science's game. This is the stumbling block
 >to forced mainstream interest in a phenomenon that
 >will-not-die... haunts the imaginations of men and women all
 >over the globe past, present, and near future, and is only
 >hinted at by a corrupt corporate media that is worried and
 >frustrated by its inability to be able to predict a sure profit
 >from the new paradigm. So, UFOs are artfully ridiculed in
 >throw-away adds for washing machines and parodied in the planned
 >obsolescence of big motor cars and computer chips.

<snip>

 >It was at this point that an unusual serendipity graced Ufology,
 >and a contribution was allowed by three men who would ultimately
 >do for a serious Ufology what Brahms, Bach, and Beethoven did
 >for modern music. They defined Ufology, gave it an initial
 >scientific grounding, and placed it in a modern secular context
 >what had been heretofore mired in an ineffective religious one.
 >These three men were Edward Ruppelt, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, and Dr.
 >Jacques Vallee.

<snip>

 >These three books are:

 >"The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects" by Edward J.
 >Ruppelt. This book can be found in its entirety on line at:

 >http://www.alienview.net/rufo.htm

 >and is truly the first book to read in the series.

 >"The UFO Experience -- A Scientific Inquiry" by Dr. J. Allen
 >Hynek. Online soon.

 >"Anatomy Of A Phenomenon -- UFO's in Space" by Dr. Jacques
 >Vallee. Excerpts online Soon.

 >Not only are we "not in Kansas any more..." ladies and
 >gentlemen, these books begin to make it clear that we were NEVER
 >in Kansas, except in the imaginations of a select but non
 >elected few. Read them to feel your eyes open wide again. Read
 >them to know a child's enchantment. Read them to reawaken the
 >wonder lost in the events of the recent past. Read them to
 >expand the potential, quicken the spirit, and satisfy your human
 >sensibility. Read them to come alive, again, and regain, as I
 >have, real, encouraging, and true epiphany.

 >Curiosity killed the cat? That's an unrepentant and unsupported
 >load of traditionalist hoo-rah. Curiosity FED the cat. Ours will
 >feed us, too, and what a grand banquet it is to be. Read on.

Dear and gentle Reader, Al, Errol,

As usual, well said. No one can say it as you do, Alfred. Wish
the heck I could communicate the way you do.

But rather than dwell on the obvious, may I offer the services
of amazon.com, which when properly used, finds out of print
books with ease. The longest I had to wait for the three above,
was two months. In return for that wait, I received a decent
copy of Hynek's "UFO Experience."

Actually, I lied. I already have everything (mostly) that Vallee
wrote. A man of extraordinary qualifications and scientific
ability. But having used book search firms for years in other
research, I can vouch for Amazon's networking. Fair prices and
decent copies.

Al, after reading your essay, I recall what Herbert wrote in
Dune about fear. "Fear is the mind killer. It is the little
death which causes total obliteration. I shall face my fear. I
shall let it pass over me, and when it has passed, only I shall
remain."

Forgive the omissions and errors, as my mind is not what it once
was.


Jim - with Admiration.....

PS: Don't get a swelled head, 'Admiration' is a new Gripple
Product.










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                Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:49:39 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis


on 12/21/01 9:44 AM, UFO UpDates - Toronto at
ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net wrote:

 >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO TV Programme On The Internet
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:50:23 +1100

 >Hi Errol/UFO Update:

 >The following release describes a UFO programme venture on the
 >Internet which I have been involved with. I hope that the
 >audience for UFO Update will support this venture.

 >Regards,

 >Bill Chalker

Howdy Bill,

Sounds cool but... I just tried it on my Mac and it was 'no
dice'. Couldn't see a thing. I could hear everything but it
appears that they did not properly encode the Media Player files
so that both Mac and PC users can view the shows.

Also, I noticed that the title for your UFO show reads...
"Doggy Dos and Donts" - is that a typo or a joke?

On top of that there is not FAQ page and no contact info for
feedback to the site designers/managers.

So please pass on this tech support message.   :-)


SMiles








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                         Nuclear Accidents/Incidents

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:16:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:50:53 -0500
Subject: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents


Greetings Listers,

Here is a more authoritive list of nuclear accidents/incidents.
It should be noted that many such events are still classified.

http://www.milnet.com/milnet/cdiart.htm









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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:25:42 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:53:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:51:49 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>>Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>>Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >>>by Jim Keith

 >>Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >>list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
 >>category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
 >>NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >>http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >>Next theory! :-)

 >>Bombs and Bombers

 >>13 February 1950
 >>A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
 >>Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
 >>complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
 >>first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
 >>Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
 >>coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
 >>detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.

 >Calling Larry Hatch..... any correlation between UFO sightings
 >and bomb drops?

Awww Brucel, Hatcher don't know nuttin about that stuff. Aks me.
Gesundt.

Thanks, since you aksed... there is a definite correlation
between bomb drops and UFOs. Just look at UFO UpDates archives.
See the sections where AldBarf, Class and Squirmer (and there
are other regulars, more recent regulars - but I refrain from
saying the names, as Christmas comes but once a year Mr.
Scrooge), see the archives and look at what these and their
ick... ilk, have to say about UFOs. Then, look up the NASA,
Filer's File and other venues of truth, justice and the American
way have to say about them.

And speaking about American ways, A hearty to all of you out
there in the void. From US-a.

And to all, A very merry and happy (not to mention healthy) New
Year in case I forgot to say it personally.


Jim, Rosemarie and Pepe the French Bulldog (From Oklahoma)







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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:56:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:28:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800

<snip>

 >Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
 >to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
 >(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

 >I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
 >on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
 >Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
 >embellished, some I've never heard of.

 >GT McCoy

GT,

At the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist, some
perspective needs to be maintained.

In trying to answer Roswell lore about recovered bodies, the AF
said we don't have any evidence of them. Could it be that
accounts of same were somehow spurred by the dropping of crash
test dummies, which admittedly took place years later?

Remember that they were basically addressing body claims made by
Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others, most of whom
have had serious doubts cast on their credibility.

There is very little reason to believe, or suspect, that bodies
of alien beings were recovered at or near Roswell, New Mexico in
the summer of 1947.


D Stacy








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               Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Chalker

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:55:36 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:32:53 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Chalker


 >From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:48 -0600
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis

 >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UFO TV Programme On The Internet
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:50:23 +1100

 >>Hi Errol/UFO Update:

 >>The following release describes a UFO programme venture on the
 >>Internet which I have been involved with. I hope that the
 >>audience for UFO Update will support this venture.


 >Howdy Bill,

 >Sounds cool but... I just tried it on my Mac and it was 'no
 >dice'. Couldn't see a thing. I could hear everything but it
 >appears that they did not properly encode the Media Player files
 >so that both Mac and PC users can view the shows.

 >Also, I noticed that the title for your UFO show reads... "Doggy
 >Dos and Donts" - is that a typo or a joke?

 >On top of that there is not FAQ page and no contact info for
 >feedback to the site designers/managers.

 >So please pass on this tech support message.  :-)


Hi SMiles,

I don't know if its a Mac thing, but I'll pass the comments on.

The following email address should get to the producers, plus
eventually myself & Doug Moffett if its relevant to us:
ufo@bananatv.com

My system operates in a Windows 98 environment using Internet
Explorer, with no difficulties. Likewise on my laptop which uses
Windows ME plus Explorer. No sound or picture difficulties,
other than those pointed out in my original message, re smaller
and less fluid image, plus good sound with 56kbps modem speed.
Broadband is the intended medium.

Given you got "Doggy do's & donts", sounds like it defaulted to
another channel option in "Health, Life & Style". The "Doggy"
show is not a typo or pun, but another programme put together by
Bark Buster people. Great if you want to train a dog. On the
right hand side of the TV set there should be some channel
icons. Because you got "Doggy do's & donts" look above its icon.
There should be a "Home" channel icon. Click on "Home" and that
will bring up all the current channel icons, which include
"Health, Life & Style", "School", "People and Passions", etc.
"People and Passions" is the one you will want for the "UFO"
show. Click on it, up will come up a few more icons, one being
"UFO". Click on it and you'll get the programmes under it.
Currently there is only one - "Introduction". In coming weeks
there will be others programme "episodes", which can be either
all watched at the same time or in any order etc. There will be
some interesting ones coming up.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Bill Chalker











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                           MTVI*update - Jan 2002

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:35:26 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:37:55 -0500
Subject: MTVI*update - Jan 2002


MTVI*update

Jan. 2002

http://mactonnies.com

-_-_-_-_-_-

Season's greetings from MTVI. The site continues to expand, with
the addition of several new books, a variety of links to sites
of "fringe" interest, and an updated introduction/biography.

Selected books for the new year are as follows...

Fiction:

MARS CROSSING Geoffrey Landis

Geoffrey Landis' deceptively breezy Martian odyssey just might
be the best "mission to Mars" novel ever written. Panoramic and
insightful, Landis' story of a crew of stranded astronauts
forced to circumnavigate an alien world is presented in short
chapters of one or two pages. Fortunately, the whole is much
more than the sum of its parts. Landis accomplishes a taut
adventure peopled by interesting characters. And the rigorous
portayal of Mars itself is top-notch; never has the stark
landscape of another world been rendered with such subtlety and
narrative savvy. As with the best of near-future science
fiction, "Mars Crossing" reads with a forbidding - and
exhilerating - sense of inevitability.

THE HANDMAID'S TALE Margaret Atwood

In "The Handmaid's Tale," Margaret Atwood chillingly conceives
an oppressive near-future every bit as frightening as Orwell's
"1984." An unflinching tale of gender politics, Atwood's
first-person novel tells the story of Offred, a "handmaiden"
whose role is to reproduce in an effort to counter widespread
sterility. "The Handmaid's Tale" is not so much a work of
speculative feminism as a document of humanity at its sordid,
desperate worst. Already a classic, Atwood's cautionary and
deeply moving novel proceeds with a malignant believability.

V. Thomas Pynchon

Thomas Pynchon's first novel is an unusual epic that plunges
deep into history, mythology and the more absurd frontiers of
the human psyche. In "V.," we meet the enigmatic and obsessive
Stencil, whose quest to find the mythical V. leads him on a
bizarre trans-temporal journey. Pynchon's narrative is full of
strangeness on many levels, but it's the author's elegant use of
language that makes tagging along on Stencil's quest worthwhile.
"V." is mercilessly weird and quite probably warrants rereading.
Intricate, disturbing, yet oddly hilarious.

RIBOFUNK Paul Di Filippo

Di Filippo's "Ribofunk" is a series of loosely connected stories
and vignettes depicting a future world where biotechnology has
become as ubiquitous as electonics are today. "Ribofunk"
addresses the plight of "splices" - genetically engineered
beings whose DNA is less than fifty-percent human - and their
uneasy coexistence with both humans and artificial
intelligences. While the narrative arc of the stories is
sometimes uneven, Di Filippo's wacky future society is inventive
and satisfyingly bizarre, with the book's most important moment
coming last. Readers awed by Rudy Rucker's playful, organic
approach to science fiction should find "Ribofunk" a worthwhile
side-trip.


A GOOD OLD-FASHIONED FUTURE

Sterling's short fiction is just as good as his novel-length
stories, as evidenced in "A Good Old-Fashioned Future," his
third (and best) collection to date. "Future" is more topical
and less scattered than "Crystal Express" and "Globalhead," with
a comic and chilling preoccupation with the day-after-tomorrow
(in "Sacred Cow," India is the sole superpower after the Western
world dies of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, more commonly
known as Mad Cow Disease). The last three stories, beginning
with "Deep Eddy," form a short interlinked quasi-novel that gets
progressively stranger. The last piece, in particular, achieves
the reckless, delusional perfection of vintage cyberpunk.

The most memorable story here is arguably "Big Jelly," a
feverish collaboration with Rudy Rucker that tackles wild
concepts and succeeds with hysterical results. "A Good
Old-Fashioned Future" belongs on the shelf alongside Sterling's
greats; it's fun to see what this guy will come up with next.

  -  -

Nonfiction:

THE HACKER CRACKDOWN Bruce Sterling

"The Hacker Crackdown," Sterling's only nonfiction effort to
date, is an engrossing and thorough look at the subcultures and
civil liberties issues spawned by computer crime. Written with a
novelist's eye, "The Hacker Crackdown" is consummately Sterling,
as informative as it is fun. This is an essential document of
the PC era.

APOCALYPSE PRETTY SOON Alex Heard

"Apocalypse Pretty Soon" is an extremely funny and informative
tour through "end-time America," with a smart focus on flying
saucer cults, religious fundamentalism, terrorist agendas and
cyberculture. Heard's first-person exploits and interviews make
for a wickedly hilarious experience. Multifaceted and witty,
Heard's document of a world in the throes of perceived
millennial destruction is one of the best studies of its kind.
Must-reading for students of the new millennium.

MIND CHILDREN Hans Moravec

Roboticist Hans Moravec's "Mind Children" is a seminal
transhumanist work describing the likely future of artificial
intelligence over the next few thousand years. Moravec's
scenarios are liberating, brilliant and quite plausible taken in
the context of today's unrushing advances in computer and
nano-technology. "Mind Children" also serves as a helpful look
back at the origins and methods of the computer industry; using
history as a guide, Moravec muses on the genesis of
human-intelligent machines, brain uploading (and downloading),
interstellar info-viruses and a dizzying variety of
postbiological ecologies. This is heady, potent stuff, and
must-reading for anyone who wants their boundaries challenged or
expanded.

Vallee's "Passport to Magonia" is a landmark study of the close
encounter experience by one of the most astute thinkers in the
field. Jacques Vallee compares modern UFO sightings to their
mythological counterparts, raising profound questions about the
nature of our apparent "visitors" and their role in our
psychosocial evolution. Like Jung, Vallee assesses the psychical
and psychological impacts of the UFO experience. For more rare
insight from Vallee, read "Dimensions," Confrontations" and
"Revelations."

BORDERLANDS OF SCIENCE Charles Sheffield

"Borderlands of Science" is an arresting guide to physics,
chemistry and biology written by a seasoned science fiction
writer. "Borderlands," while a fun factual adventure for readers
of any persuasion, is especially good reading for aspiring SF
writers. Sheffield's prose is brisk and conversational, and his
book successfully balances the seriousness of science with the
sheer fun it can be when translated to the medium of fiction.
"Borderlands" is a compulsively readable refresher course
comparable to the popular science works of Carl Sagan and Isaac
Asimov.

http://mactonnies.com/bookreviews.html

  -  -

Recommended site:

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com

launched by Dr. Mark Carlotto, is an impeccable resource for
anyone interested in a scientific perspective on "forbidden"
subjects. The present issue is devoted to analysis of the April,
2001 photo of the Face on Mars.

- - - - - - -








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                               Merry Christmas

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:37:41 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:39:52 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


Hello Errol and List members,

Just a short note to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and have a
Happy New Year


Regards,

Leigh Blackmore
troswell51@optusnet.com.au









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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:51:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:41:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hatch


 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:51:49 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:15:34 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>From: Drew Williamson <drew.williamson@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >>>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:54 AM
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>>Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>>Feature Story FATE Magazine 2000-01-01 00:00:00
 >>>by Jim Keith

 >>Hmmmm. Yes they sure do keep those lost nukes a secret. Here's a
 >>list of accidents involving nukes under the Bombs and Bombers"
 >>category found at the site entitled "PARTIAL LIST OF U.S.
 >>NUCLEAR ACCIDENTS" at:

 >>http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/partial.htm#bombs

 >>Next theory! :-)

 >>Bombs and Bombers

 >>13 February 1950
 >>A B-36 en route from Alaska to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort
 >>Worth, Texas, developed serious mechanical difficulties,
 >>complicated by severe icing conditions, leading to the world's
 >>first nuclear accident. The crew headed out over the Pacific
 >>Ocean and dropped the nuclear weapons from 8,000 feet off the
 >>coast of British Columbia. The weapons' high-explosive material
 >>detonated on impact, but the crew parachuted to safety.

 >Calling Larry Hatch..... any correlation between UFO sightings
 >and bomb drops?


Hello Bruce (and other musical sorts)


I regret that I am in no condition [burp] to answer your
interesting question at this time.

In fact, my rather sober database is not set up to help,
although a study could me made. This would entail the entry of
each accident into the database ( usually restricted to UFO
events ), and some sort of cross check.

For a correlation (in the strictest sense) larger numbers would
be needed before any statistician could call anything "valid". I
learned some applied statistics and probability in various
Nevada casinos, among them the fabled Nevada Club in Reno, very
retro and very sadly defunct.

Regardless, a clustering effect might be noted, given enough
time, effort and properly chilled quality beers.

Todd Lemire in Michigan might be altering his copy of the *U*
Database to include the location of mines and quarries. I think
that's a fine idea. Even if the results are null, we still have
a result.

I regret that I cannot help any more at this time due to purely
local conditions.


Best!

- Larry









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                       Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:02:19 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:46:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:16:09 -0500

 >Greetings Listers,

 >Here is a more authoritive list of nuclear accidents/incidents.
 >It should be noted that many such events are still classified.

 >http://www.milnet.com/milnet/cdiart.htm


Hello Jan:

Is www.milnet.com a commercial site? It seems in no way official
to me.

I'm a little put off by spellings like "32 accidents involving
nuclaer weapons"... which is OK for the Art Bell show, but a bit
thin here.

I could spell better than that in grade school.

I hope that the pertinent authorities in charge of "nuclaer"
weapons are better equipped than I might be.



Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:38:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:49:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:59:04 EST
 >Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:45:42 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:35:14 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:56:09 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More

 >>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:56:20 EST
 >>>>>Subject: Thanksgiving Ain't No Fun No More
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >><snip>

 >>>>>We, that is, Rosie and I, looked up and saw a very bright star.
 >>>>>We both looked at it, as did Pepe. Now that was interesting. I
 >>>>>got the feeling again. High Strangeness as I call it. The light
 >>>>>was exceedingly bright and began to get brighter. It did not
 >>>>>merely get bright, it came towards us and as it got closer, it
 >>>>>assumed a round shape. Meanwhile, Pepe is pulling at the leash
 >>>>>and wants inside. No doubt.

 >>>><snip>

 >>>>Hello Morty:

 >>>>This is just awful.

 >>>>As I understand it, these events, whatever they are, happen
 >>>>without warning and not on any sort of predicable schedule.

 >>>>Since they recur, and to more than a few people, I cannot help
 >>>>but wonder if there isn't some way to get solid evidence of
 >>>>something truly strange!

 ><snip>

 >>I've heard much the same from others, all attempts at some
 >>physical verification were dismal failures.

 >>So what have we here, some sort of psychic, paranormal,
 >>spiritual, mystical or other-dimensional manifestation which
 >>leaves no physical clues?

 >Dear Larry, List, Errol,

<snip>

 >>If UFOs themselves are not physical objects, I cannot claim any
 >>further interest in them.

 >>Best wishes

 >Whatever the phenomena, there are no answers. Just a whole lotta
 >questions. Ain't no time to give up. Not until the bastards land
 >and aks for our leader. At which point, we'd hafta scratch our
 >heads and say, "Wull, uh... Duh?!!"

 >Merry, Happy or whatever turns yous on. Which I suspect got
 >bubbles. Gripple-Up. Addict a buddy and get a gallon jug free.

 >Jim


This is no time for cold reason and electronic logic.

I even turned down the diffusion furnaces before I
left the semiconductor hell from Hell.  Its a cold
January but a warm quart of scotch I can see.



Best wishes to all.

- Larry Hatch

- - - -








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                               Merry Christmas

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:04:42 -0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:53:51 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


I wish you all a very happy and warm Merry Christmas from
Brazil. Let us have an esplendid New Year, too. 2002 could be
the time for us to gather even more evidences that we are not
alone in the universe. The time to achieve more recognition to
our work as UFO researchers. Maybe also the time for us to open
much more minds to the new reality represented by our visitors.
Also, who knows, it could be the year for us to decrease the
immense distance that keeps us apart from them!


A. J. Gevaerd
UFO Magazine, Brazil










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                               Merry Christmas

From: Roy J. Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:09:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:29:23 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas



May I extend my sincere Seasonal Greetings to all my colleagues
around the World. Happy Christmas to you and yours!

I would also like to thank Errol for his excellent work on
UpDates! Another great year for UFO information!


Best regards,

Roy Hale.

Web Master of The Lost Haven
Editor of Down To Earth Magazine on the Web.
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk










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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:25:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:09:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - McCoy


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:56:03 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
 >>to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
 >>(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

 >>I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
 >>on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
 >>Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
 >>embellished, some I've never heard of.

 >>GT McCoy


 >GT,

 >At the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist, some
 >perspective needs to be maintained.

 >In trying to answer Roswell lore about recovered bodies, the AF
 >said we don't have any evidence of them. Could it be that
 >accounts of same were somehow spurred by the dropping of crash
 >test dummies, which admittedly took place years later?

 >Remember that they were basically addressing body claims made by
 >Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others, most of whom
 >have had serious doubts cast on their credibility.

 >There is very little reason to believe, or suspect, that bodies
 >of alien beings were recovered at or near Roswell, New Mexico in
 >the summer of 1947.


Hello all, Dennis.

Well surprise! I'm not a member of the Roswell fundementalists
on both sides. Something happened - wheather a crashed saucer,
or a mogul balloon I know not, but when Klass & co. trot out
something that stretches the imagination like the 'Crash Test
Dummies', and the 'foggy memory' theroy. It's just the sort of
thing that fuels more speculation, not less.

I was in aviation for 25-odd years. I did a lot of defense
dept/energy department work in the West, flying people and
equipment around. I have been involved in several accident
(aircraft) investigations. Not once could I mistake an dummy for
a dead thing, human or other. I, being raised on a cattle ranch,
knew from toddler-on what dead things look like, and granted it
is my own opinion, but I think the average Air Force grunt and
Roswell shepherd has the ability to discern a live/dead critter
or a dummy.

One more thing...... Dead things stink - especially in the New
Mexican, July sun - personal experience here. Crash test
dummies, unless dressed in last week's Nomex, don't.

Here's a question - did any one involved mention the smell of
death at the crash site? If memeory serves, I don't recall
anyone mentioning the smell of dead Trafalmadorians? Oh, the
dead New Mexican critter was a dead cow, at Alamagordo Airtanker
base, that no one would bury due to jurisdictional problems.
Late Bossy fed the buzzards all summer and gave a bouquet to the
dreaded Forest Service sack lunch.


Happy Holidays!

GT McCoy












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                               Merry Christmas

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:33:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:11:47 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


Hello Errol and List members,

I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy 2002!!!


Sincerely,

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Reporter (English)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html








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                               Merry Christmas

From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:48:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:54:34 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


A special wish all my fellow Americans in New York, may peace
and serenity find a way into your hearts.

To our soldiers, who with out question, lay their lives on the
line to support the views of their fellow citizens, may fate
keep you safe and secure.

Merry Christmas To All!


Donald W. Shevlin









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                  Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:33:9 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:57:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Aldrich


 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:02:19 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents


 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:16:09 -0500

 >>Greetings Listers,

 >>Here is a more authoritive list of nuclear accidents/incidents.

 >>It should be noted that many such events are still classified.

 >>http://www.milnet.com/milnet/cdiart.htm


 >Hello Jan:

 >Is www.milnet.com a commercial site? It seems in no way official
 >to me.

 >I'm a little put off by spellings like "32 accidents involving
 >nuclaer weapons"... which is OK for the Art Bell show, but a bit
 >thin here.

 >I could spell better than that in grade school.

 >I hope that the pertinent authorities in charge of "nuclaer"
 >weapons are better equipped than I might be.


 >Very best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch


Hi Larry,

Milnet is an anti-military site, but they did get the article
from a military publication. There annotations are indicated in
the article.

I am not sure if there are spelling or scanning errors. Hey, I
messed up "authoritative".

Regards,

Jan










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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:40:3 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:00:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:56:03 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
 >>to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
 >>(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

 >>I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
 >>on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
 >>Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
 >>embellished, some I've never heard of.


 >GT,

 >At the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist, some
 >perspective needs to be maintained.

 >In trying to answer Roswell lore about recovered bodies, the AF
 >said we don't have any evidence of them. Could it be that
 >accounts of same were somehow spurred by the dropping of crash
 >test dummies, which admittedly took place years later?

 >Remember that they were basically addressing body claims made by
 >Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others, most of whom
 >have had serious doubts cast on their credibility.

 >There is very little reason to believe, or suspect, that bodies
 >of alien beings were recovered at or near Roswell, New Mexico in
 >the summer of 1947.

 >D Stacy


Hi Dennis,

Have you seen the movies of dropping crash dummies? Even from a
distance one can recognize dummies dressed in international
orange crashing down to the earth.

I don't know if the company still has any of the videos left, but
they could be ordered form

Declassified Film Productions
120 West LLC
Louisville, KY 40206

www.TopSecrets.com

Jan Aldrich









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                               Merry Christmas

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:27:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:02:38 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


Hi All,

I'd like to express my best wishes for a peaceful, happy,
holiday season to all my Listmates. May 2002 bring us all closer
to a direct and personal knowledge of the Truth/reality
surrounding UFOs and their occupants. Many of us have labored
long and hard toward that end. We deserve an answer.


Warmest regards,

John Velez, NYC









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                      The Origin Of The Christmas Tree

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:07:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:36:09 -0500
Subject: The Origin Of The Christmas Tree


Merry Christmas to all. I thought I would share this with you,
please note it is not intended for children to read!


The Christmas Tree Story

One particular Christmas season a long time ago, Santa was
getting ready for his annual trip... but there were problems
everywhere.

Four of his elves got sick and the trainee elves did not produce
the toys as fast as the regular ones and Santa was beginning to
feel the pressure of being behind schedule.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa that her Mom was coming to visit.
This stressed Santa even more.

When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of
them were about to give birth and two had jumped the fence and
were out, heavens knows where. More stress.

Then, when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floor boards
cracked and the toy bag fell to the ground and scattered the
toys all over.

So, frustrated, Santa went into the house for a cup of coffee
and a shot of whisky. When he went to the cupboard, he
discovered that the elves had hidden the liquor and there was
nothing to drink.

In his frustration, he dropped the coffee pot and it broke into
hundreds of little pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to
get the broom and found that mice had eaten all the straw it was
made from.

Just then, the doorbell rang and Santa cussed on his way to the
door. He opened it and there was a little angel with a great big
Christmas tree.

The angel said, very cheerfully, "Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn't
it just a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you. Isn't it
just a lovely tree? Where would you like me to stick it?"

Thus began the tradition of the little angel on top of the
Christmas tree.


Merry Christmas!

Joe McGonagle











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                Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:10:17 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:39:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' -


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:56:03 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'


 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
 >>to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
 >>(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

 >>I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
 >>on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
 >>Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
 >>embellished, some I've never heard of.

 >GT,

 >At the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist, some
 >perspective needs to be maintained.

 >In trying to answer Roswell lore about recovered bodies, the AF
 >said we don't have any evidence of them. Could it be that
 >accounts of same were somehow spurred by the dropping of crash
 >test dummies, which admittedly took place years later?

 >Remember that they were basically addressing body claims made by
 >Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others, most of whom
 >have had serious doubts cast on their credibility.

 >There is very little reason to believe, or suspect, that bodies
 >of alien beings were recovered at or near Roswell, New Mexico in
 >the summer of 1947.

Dear Dennis, GT, List and Errol,

First I would wish all on this List a most happy, healthy and
wondrous Christmas and New Year. If not Christmas, then whatever
it may be which you celebrate. Everybody gotta celebrate sumpin.

And to Errol Bruce-Knapp, the regards, respect, admiration and
thanks, from our bottoms... sorry... from the bottom of our
hearts, for doing this stuff for nothing but the phenom and us.
The later being one crappy reason, but we thank you anyway for
this thankless job. Seriously!

 From Me, Pepe and Rosie... not in that order. Pepe demanded
Second Billing.

Secondly, and in keeping with the spirit of the season, hello
Dennis. I have not seen your erudition on this List in a while.
Can't say I missed it, but that's just me. Presumably, you came
out to play at being Santa? Or was it the ghost of Christmas
UFOs? Couldn't have been that Gripple I sent you, could it?

Anyway, in response to your response to GT, a response which I
admire... mine I mean... I have this to say about that.

As usual you are quite correct in your musings. Why indeed would
there be a clue as to bodies being found at or near Roz Swell? I
mean they were probally gonna use them child-size caskets for
the dummies. And speaking of dummies... uh... never mind.
Christmas comes but once a year, Mr. Scrooge. And this being the
season to be jolly, and since you have that Gripple I sent you
and it did _not_ make _you_ jolly, I must assume that for you,
there is no hope. "For the Stacey (sic Father), nothing." That,
not from the Reverend Mother Helen Gaius Mohiam, but from the
bottom of my bottle.

Of course, there were the witnesses who testify even unto today,
about the bodies they saw. One of which (dummies of course)
appeared alive. "It's _alive_! It's _alive_"

Then there are the people who claim to have seen the debris,
obviously brisk debris from the mill down the street. The Brisk
mill.

Come on Dennis, you can surely do sorely better than that! Can't
ya?

 From the pens of: Young Doctor Malone... Stella Dallas...
Lorenzo Jones... Bat Man and the other voices in my head.
Including Jim Mortellaro. But since it is Christmas and since my
conscience is unconscious, allow me the liberty of wishing even
you, a very Merry and Happy Christmas. "I'm sure it will be very
merry and very happy!" (Sayeth Mr. Scrooge to his Clark).









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               Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:10:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:46:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line -


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:1:1 -0500

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:46:39 +0100

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Sign Historical Group Proceedings On Line
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:10:28 -0500

 >>Aldrich wrote:

 >>>Raymond Fowler (UFO case files and other relevant
 >>>material, less his abduction research materials which
 >>>have been disposed of elsewhere)

 >>Do you mean that Mr. Raymond Fowler has given up UFO
 >>investigations? Who is the recipient of his abduction research
 >>material?

 >>Luis R. Gonzalez Manso

 >Yes, to the first question. He is moving to Maine and wishes to
 >devote time to teaching astronomy. He is still interested in the
 >UFO subject.

 >I don't know who obtained the abduction files, it is
 >confidential. You might ask Mr. Fowler.

 >Jan Aldrich

Hi Jan, hola Luis, All,

Great suffering Zot! I hope the answer to the question of
'where' the abductee files ended up isn't that dreaded four
letter word, 'NIDS!' That freaking place is a black hole for
UFO/abduction related information. If they have it, it's in
Bigelow's personal "Vault." "NIDS" is _his_ public arm.

I know I'll be having nightmares until we find out. If anyone
has an e-mail address for Ray I'll be glad to contact him and
ask him myself. I only hope it ended up in a library that can be
accessed by other researchers. That would be nice. Ray Fowler
has always come across as a straight shooter. I trust that he
did the right thing. If he sold it all to Bigelow/ NIDS then it
is a great loss to us all. Regardless, Ray needs to be thanked
publicly for all his many years of investigative work. Wherever
his files are, they represent a rich source of material for
anyone who seeks answers to these urgent and important questions
concerning UFOs and their activities.


Regards,

John Velez










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   Dec > Dec 22

                               Merry Christmas

From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 20:15:15 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:47:51 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!


Love,

Minna H
Finland









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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:15:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:50:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Velez


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:25:16 -0800

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:56:03 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:44:51 -0800

 >><snip>

 >>>Bravo Jan! If the Air Force had the story of a nuclear incident
 >>>to explain Roswell, they wouldn't have trotted out the pathetic
 >>>(IMHO) 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation.

 >>>I agree, the website on the so-called nuclear "incidents" rely
 >>>on hearsay and a little imagination. I've been around the
 >>>Nuclear industry a bit, and some of these are true, some are
 >>>embellished, some I've never heard of.

 >>GT,

 >>At the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist, some
 >>perspective needs to be maintained.

 >>In trying to answer Roswell lore about recovered bodies, the AF
 >>said we don't have any evidence of them. Could it be that
 >>accounts of same were somehow spurred by the dropping of crash
 >>test dummies, which admittedly took place years later?

 >>Remember that they were basically addressing body claims made by
 >>Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others, most of whom
 >>have had serious doubts cast on their credibility.

 >>There is very little reason to believe, or suspect, that bodies
 >>of alien beings were recovered at or near Roswell, New Mexico in
 >>the summer of 1947.

 >Hello all, Dennis.

Hi GT, Sasquatch, All,

GT wrote:

 >Well surprise! I'm not a member of the Roswell fundementalists
 >on both sides. Something happened - wheather a crashed saucer,
 >or a mogul balloon I know not, but when Klass & co. trot out
 >something that stretches the imagination like the 'Crash Test
 >Dummies', and the 'foggy memory' theroy. It's just the sort of
 >thing that fuels more speculation, not less.

Well said. I have been having a private discussion with a few
folks about this very thing. The 'tactics' (if they can be
called that) being employed by the government/Air Force and its
spin doctors, ie; Klass, Oberg, and the rest, only serve to
pique interest and curiousity not to quell it.

The "Official" US Air Force "explanation" for the "bodies" that
were allegedly witnessed and reported in connection to the
Roswell incident is one of the single-most compelling reasons to
question the veracity of the information being provided to us by
our governing officials. The "alien bodies" have always been one
of the more 'questionable' components of the Roswell reports.
Even within ufology itself it has never enjoyed any real
popularity ('firm' position) as being one of the more credible
aspects of the Roswell case.

Yet, the Air Force thought it was important enough to publish an
official excuse/explanation for the "bodies." Makes me go
"hmmmm!" when I see stuff like that coming out of military
officialdom Makes me wonder why they feel they have to "explain"
it at all. As GT and Alfred Lehmberg have expressed, it makes
more curious not less.

 >One more thing...... Dead things stink - especially in the New
 >Mexican, July sun - personal experience here. Crash test
 >dummies, unless dressed in last week's Nomex, don't.

So does the crappola that Klass and Oberg and Nickel spend all
their time brushing all over anything connected to reports of
UFOs, psychic phenomena, or God. According to them; There are
_no_ 'unknown' phenomena in the world. They presume to tell us
with authority that nothing other than what we can see, smell,
hear or touch, exists. They are convinced that they have all the
answers for everything.

Balls.

Be nice to hear the truth about what is happening instead of all
these deceptive lies and excuses. At some point we all need to
form a popular front/organization and formally request open,
public hearings on the subject of UFOs. If you're waiting for
Greer to do it, you'll grow old and grey in the process.


Regards,

John Velez










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                    Merry Christmas - A True Perspective

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:32:18 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:51:39 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas - A True Perspective



By Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt, Jr.

Christmas is a humbug! I've read all this claptrap about how
everyone is wishing everyone else this Merry Christmas crappola.
That's what it is. Crappola. Christmas ain't this Christmas tree
stuff... or presents under the dangerous thing... I mean it
could catch fire and ruin the whole night, you know? And what's
this about cheer? The only cheer we got comes out of a bottle,
these days. Or a needle. Or a pill. Although I much prefer the
grip of a good Grip.

No people, this is not Christmas. This is a joke. I can tell you
what this stupid Christmas means to everyone. Nothing. NOTHING!

But to me, Christmas means something so intangible, so
undefinable that it almost exceeds defining love in complexity.
And it far exceeds defining women in complexity. Such a complex
idea, concept and feeling can more simply be defined by the
things which we hope would represent such feelings.

The tree decorated with beautiful colored lights. The tree. A
living ornament. An evergreen tree. Ever green. Always alive.
Almost forever. Certainly in a man's lifetime, exceeding such by
many man years.  The lights, designed to bring light into your
heart. Not into the world. But all the trees and all the lights,
can light up a small part of this terrible place we call home
for we humans. Some of it. And the gifts. They represent our
love for each other. The love we forgot to remember. And so now,
all we do remember is the gift.

Everybody gets all stressed at getting the gifts. Too bloody
bad. Try giving something of yourself for a change. It may
become a habit.

Nah!

Tree - Life - Giving - Love. I vote for defining Christmas as
giving all those things. Life and love. Let's just settle for
love. For in giving love, we give life. A part of our own life.
And there is no greater gift than that.

So, rather than dwell on the greetings, the tree, the .gif's...
sorry I meant to write "gifts, rather than dwell on the things,
may I suggest that we dwell on what they mean? Regardless of
what religion you practice, if one at all, just focus on what it
means. The gift of love. The gift which keeps on giving. All
year round.

When I was a kid, Christmas was one of those times when it just
made up for every terrible thing added together in my life, and
there were many of those, made up for all of them many, many
times over. Just to go upstairs to the living room, to see that
living tree decorated so beautifully that only _care_ can
create. And care is best demonstrated by love. The tree was
love. That Jesus was born that night was not something on which
I now dwell. Now, I dwell on the fact that the man on that cross
gave something to us. That was Himself. It was love. And I plan
on doing the same. Not because of Jesus or Christmas or any of
that ... but because dammit ... it makes me feel so wonderfully
good.

Blessings, love and peace to all. And to all, a good fight.
Which is what UpDates is all about.

Thank you Errol, for your gift to us.


Jim Mortellaro









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                             Shermer's Last Law

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:44:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:44:58 -0500
Subject: Shermer's Last Law

http://www.sciam.com/2002/0102issue/0102skeptic.html


Shermer's Last Law

Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is
indistinguishable from God

By Michael Shermer

...........

As scientist extraordinaire and author of an empire of
science-fiction books, Arthur C. Clarke is one of the
farthest-seeing visionaries of our time. His pithy quotations
tug harder than those of most futurists on our collective
psyches for their insights into humanity and our unique place in
the cosmos. And none do so more than his famous Third Law: "Any
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."

This observation stimulated me to think about the impact the
discovery of an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) would have
on science and religion. To that end, I would like to immodestly
propose Shermer's Last Law (I don't believe in naming laws after
oneself, so as the good book says, the last shall be first and
the first shall be last): "Any sufficiently advanced ETI is
indistinguishable from God."

God is typically described by Western religions as omniscient
and omnipotent. Because we are far from possessing these traits,
how can we possibly distinguish a God who has them absolutely
from an ETI who merely has them copiously relative to us? We
can't. But if God were only relatively more knowing and powerful
than we are, then by definition the deity would be an ETI!

Consider that biological evolution operates at a snail's pace
compared with technological evolution (the former is Darwinian
and requires generations of differential reproductive success;
the latter is Lamarckian and can be accomplished within a single
generation). Then, too, the cosmos is very big and very empty.
Voyager 1, our most distant spacecraft, hurtling along at more
than 38,000 miles per hour, will not reach the distance of even
our sun's nearest neighbor, the Alpha Centauri system (which it
is not headed toward), for more than 75,000 years.

Ergo, the probability that an ETI only slightly more advanced
than we are will make contact is virtually nil. If we ever do
find an ETI, it will be as though a million-year-old Homo
erectus were dropped into the 21st century, given a computer and
cell phone and instructed to communicate with us. The ETI would
be to us as we would be to this early hominid--godlike.

Because of science and technology, our world has changed more in
the past century than in the previous 100 centuries. It took
10,000 years to get from the dawn of civilization to the
airplane but just 66 years to get from powered flight to a lunar
landing.

Moore's Law of computer power doubling every 18 months or so is
now approaching a year. Ray Kurzweil, in his book The Age of
Spiritual Machines, calculates that there have been 32 doublings
since World War II and that the singularity point--the point at
which total computational power will rise to levels so far
beyond anything that we can imagine that it will appear nearly
infinite and thus be indistinguishable from omniscience--may be
upon us as early as 2050.

When that happens, the decade that follows will put the 100,000
years before it to shame. Extrapolate out about a million years
(just a blink on an evolutionary timescale and therefore a
realistic estimate of how far advanced ETIs will be), and we get
a gut-wrenching, mind-warping feel for how godlike these
creatures would seem. In Clarke's 1953 novel, called Childhood's
End, humanity reaches something like a singularity and must then
make the transition to a higher state of consciousness. One
character early in the story opines that "science can destroy
religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No
one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the nonexistence of
Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now."

Although science has not even remotely destroyed religion,
Shermer's Last Law predicts that the relation between the two
will be profoundly affected by contact with an ETI. To find out
how, we must follow Clarke's Second Law: "The only way of
discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little
way past them into the impossible." Ad astra!



The Author

Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of
Science.


...............

UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist for the lead

http://www.anomalist.com/









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                                  Happy...

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:09:15 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:19:20 -0500
Subject: Happy...


...Humbug to Errol and all our friends, colleagues, and friendly
antagonists on Updates from me and the boys on the roof.

See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/122201.html


-- Cheers, KARL








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                   Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:22:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:22:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents - Hatch


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents
 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:33:9 -0500

 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:02:19 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Nuclear Accidents/Incidents
 >>>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:16:09 -0500

 >>>Greetings Listers,

 >>>Here is a more authoritive list of nuclear accidents/incidents.

 >>>It should be noted that many such events are still classified.

 >>>http://www.milnet.com/milnet/cdiart.htm


 >>Is www.milnet.com a commercial site? It seems in no way official
 >>to me.

 >>I'm a little put off by spellings like "32 accidents involving
 >>nuclaer weapons"... which is OK for the Art Bell show, but a bit
 >>thin here.

 >>I could spell better than that in grade school.

 >>I hope that the pertinent authorities in charge of "nuclaer"
 >>weapons are better equipped than I might be.


 >Hi Larry,

 >Milnet is an anti-military site, but they did get the article
 >from a military publication. There annotations are indicated in
 >the article.

 >I am not sure if there are spelling or scanning errors. Hey, I
 >messed up "authoritative".

Hello Jan:


I cannot spell "Bruce Naccabbee" without assistance, and always
call in the spell checker.

The S.C. is no brain trust itself, and leads to highly amusing
cross-overs for the unlettered!

Whenever I see a message with totally desperate syntax, (there
was no mistake about "nuclaer") I can guess what happened.
Somebody trusted the spell-checker more than their own eyes!

... replace, replace, replace ....

No biggie. Thanks for the note. The "typo" (chuckle) was in the
web page only.


Best wishes.

- Larry








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             Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:23:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy


 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:15:25 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

<snip>

 >The "Official" US Air Force "explanation" for the "bodies" that
 >were allegedly witnessed and reported in connection to the
 >Roswell incident is one of the single-most compelling reasons to
 >question the veracity of the information being provided to us by
 >our governing officials. The "alien bodies" have always been one
 >of the more 'questionable' components of the Roswell reports.
 >Even within ufology itself it has never enjoyed any real
 >popularity ('firm' position) as being one of the more credible
 >aspects of the Roswell case.

 >Yet, the Air Force thought it was important enough to publish an
 >official excuse/explanation for the "bodies." Makes me go
 >"hmmmm!" when I see stuff like that coming out of military
 >officialdom Makes me wonder why they feel they have to "explain"
 >it at all. As GT and Alfred Lehmberg have expressed, it makes
 >more curious not less.

John, again at the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist,
the only reason why the AF addressed the issue of recovered
bodies at Roswell in the first place is because certain
claimants claimed same.

What is so difficult to understand about this?

The people you should be asking questions of is not the Air
Force, but the self-discredited witnesses such as Kaufmann,
Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis and others, who claimed the presence
of bodies in the first place.

The Air Force was trying to give them an out w/o labeling them
outright liars. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?

I don't get it.

D Stacy











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                Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:37:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:26:53 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis


 >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet
 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:55:36 +1100

 >>From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:48 -0600
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO TV Programme On The Internet - Lewis

 >My system operates in a Windows 98 environment using Internet
 >Explorer, with no difficulties. Likewise on my laptop which uses
 >Windows ME plus Explorer. No sound or picture difficulties,
 >other than those pointed out in my original message, re smaller
 >and less fluid image, plus good sound with 56kbps modem speed.
 >Broadband is the intended medium.

 >Given you got "Doggy do's & donts", sounds like it defaulted to
 >another channel option in "Health, Life & Style". The "Doggy"
 >show is not a typo or pun, but another programme put together by
 >Bark Buster people. Great if you want to train a dog. On the
 >right hand side of the TV set there should be some channel
 >icons. Because you got "Doggy do's & donts" look above its icon.
 >There should be a "Home" channel icon. Click on "Home" and that
 >will bring up all the current channel icons, which include
 >"Health, Life & Style", "School", "People and Passions", etc.
 >"People and Passions" is the one you will want for the "UFO"
 >show. Click on it, up will come up a few more icons, one being
 >"UFO". Click on it and you'll get the programmes under it.
 >Currently there is only one - "Introduction". In coming weeks
 >there will be others programme "episodes", which can be either
 >all watched at the same time or in any order etc. There will be
 >some interesting ones coming up.

I'll try it on my work PC after the holydaze.

I had the right channel... I clicked thru exactly as you say and
heard you and another fella talking about UFOs and the title in
the player definitely said "Doggy do's and don'ts".

I know its a Mac thang as I had the same problem when we were
developing an online trailer for the 38th NUFOC. Tho I've
watched online streaming video with media player on my Mac
before, occasionally their is a problem with the original
encoding of the file and only the sound comes thru when viewed
on a Mac.

So please do pass on the techie question to the appropriate
parties. And keep working on the show. I'll keep listening and
trying to watch.

SMiles








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                 Windows XP Critical Internet Security Hole

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:08:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:29:38 -0500
Subject: Windows XP Critical Internet Security Hole


Errol,

I learned about this on Friday. The FBI's NIPC has since issued
some advisories. I don't know whether it's appropriate for your
list.....


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News December 21, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0039.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
=BB WINDOWS XP CRITICAL INTERNET SECURITY HOLE
science & technology news

*** Windows XP is vulnerable to hacker attack. Microsoft
recommends all users download a patch ***

Windows XP, the newest version of Microsoft's popular OS, has a
serious security flaw. Microsoft officials acknowledge the
unprecedented severity of the vulnerability, and the company
strongly urges all XP users to download a new software patch.

"This is a serious vulnerability. People running Windows XP need
to put the patch on right away," said Scott Culp of Microsoft's
Security Response Center.

The security bug would allow a knowledgeable hacker to seize
high level control of your computer operating system, any time
you are connected to the Internet.

The free patch and a security bulletin are available at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=3D/technet/securit=
y/
bulletin/MS01-059.asp

------------------------------------------------------------
UNIVERSAL PLUG AND PLAY VULNERABILITY

The security bug is critical for all WinXP users running the
default XP installation, but users of WinME, Win98, or Win98SE
are also vulnerable if they have activated a feature called
Universal Plug and Play (UPnP).

UPnP is Microsoft software designed for home networking. The
technology supports automated connectivity for networked
devices, such as computers, printers and other electronic
gadgets. Sun Microsystems offers a competing technology called
Jini, based on the Java programming language.

The default installation of WinXP comes with UPnP already
built-in and turned on, even if you aren't using the feature for
networking. Other recent versions of Windows (ME, 98, 98SE) do
not use UPnP by default, but you can enable or install this
peer-to-peer technology, and be vulnerable to the bug.

------------------------------------------------------------
FORMER HACKER UNCOVERS XP BUG

The security exploits were uncovered by a California security
company called eEye Digital Security.

According to the Associated Press, former hacker Marc Maiffret
calls himself eEye's "chief hacking officer". Maiffret and
friends uncovered the bugs several weeks ago, and then worked in
collaboration with Microsoft to resolve the issues.

"Microsoft understands you're never going to be perfect,"
Maiffret told CNET News, "you have to have a mechanism in place
to react to these things quickly and comprehensively when they
happen."

Even with a fix available, you must still take action on this
information and download the patch, to be secure. Although it
may take some weeks for hackers to learn how to exploit, the
worst-case scenario for XP users is that someone can seize
networked control of your computer.

As Microsoft's Scott Culp told CNET, "They might as well be
sitting
in front of the keyboard."

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

20-Dec-01
Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-059
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=3D/technet/securit=
y/
bulletin/MS01-059.asp
(Microsoft TechNet) Unchecked Buffer in Universal Plug and Play
can Lead to System Compromise...Maximum Severity Rating: Critical
...Recommendation: Microsoft strongly urges all Windows XP
customers to apply the patch immediately.

20-Dec-01
Windows Vulnerable to Hack Attacks
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7050-2001Dec20.html
(Wall Street Journal/AP) A Microsoft official acknowledged that
the risk to consumers was unprecedented because the glitches
allow hackers to seize control of all Windows XP operating system
software without requiring a computer user to do anything except
connect to the Internet.

20-Dec-01
Microsoft issues patch for "serious" XP hole
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8244349.html?tag=3Dmn_hd
(CNET News) Microsoft may have touted Windows XP as the
most secure operating system it has made, but the company
on Thursday released a bug fix for a security hole that could
leave some people's systems open to malicious attack.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
December 21, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0039.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited
as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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   Dec > Dec 23

                      Re: Shermer's Last Law - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 08:58:35 -0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:33:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Gevaerd


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:44 AM
 >Subject: Shermer's Last Law

 >Scource: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2002/0102issue/0102skeptic.html

 >Shermer's Last Law

 >Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is
 >indistinguishable from God

 >By Michael Shermer

<snip>

I=B4ve been investigating a few abduction cases involving
religious people. Some of the abductees were catholic, some
protestant and at least one was a radical protestant, from one
of those new founded money-making sects, Brazilian kind.

A long-time catholic, when in front of his abductors inside a
UFO, asked them if they "are from God". One of the aliens
telephatically told him "No. We also believe in its existence,
but we don=B4t know much about it". A protestant that I
interviewed, after his abduction, told me he believed that his
agressors were from hell. Once inside the UFO, he asked them
loudly if they "don=B4t know the rules of the Lord". According to
the man, the ETs only looked themselves silently and continued
their "procedures". "They even bothered to pay attention to my
protest", said the poor abductee...

The radical one tried to engage in a physical fight with his
abductors, claiming that he "had God=B4s strengh and nothing would
happen to him". One of the ETs suddenly stopped what we was
doing, looked into the man=B4s eyes and telephatically said: "We
also have God=B4s strengh". So the radical religious stopped
fighting and accepted whatever happened.

Curious, isn=B4t it? I just wanted to share that with you.


A. J. Gevaerd

UFO Magazine
Brazil












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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #001

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:20:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:41:07 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #001


Alfred's Odd Observation #001 (Saturday December 22, 2001.)

For months now I've been making reference to anomalous sightings
I've been having down here in the southeast US. I remind the
reader that I've seen nothing conclusive; no mother ships, beam
landers, or star ship shuttles, and I have only had encounters
that exclusively (but strongly) suggest Hynek's close encounter
of the first type.

Only strangely moving point-source lights comprise the vast
majority of my observations, though these lights have done
enough of the enigmatic and unusual to remove them from the
category of what is "supposed" to be up there. I add that I'm a
credible judge of what is supposed to be up there. I was a very
highly trained and decorated career army aviator, an instructor
pilot in both utility and attack branches, and a graduate of the
old Instrument Flight Examiner course with more helicopter time,
in peace and combat, than Oberg, Shermer, Posner, and Klass
combined! <g>.

Bizarre and specifically significant "other" things are seen in
the early morning skies as well, but not often. And only then
because I am provided with... uh, ...inordinate TIME to secure
an opportunity to observe them. Frankly, these things are making
ninety degree turns, expelling red glittery stuff, and flying
random senseless patterns while flashing strobes pulse at the
snap-turned corners. They are coming to complete stops, flying
in formation, and making vertiginous changes in magnitude with
regard to speed while generating rainbows of color. They are as
bright as Venus cubed, dim as a star only visible with off
center viewing, and they appear and disappear with what a child
might perceive as wispy playfulness. I can only wonder what they
must actually be...

I mentioned that I had "inordinate" time. Retired from the Army
and shunned for suspect reasons by the teaching *professionals*
of polite local society, I've found myself with a lot of
unemployed time on my hands to indulge a (seemingly rational)
ufological interest. I use some of the time that I have been
graced with to rock my head back and actually look up into the
sky. That's the secret you know. Really looking?

Anybody could see the things I'm seeing if they just took the
time to look, but most folks don't have time. They have jobs and
young families, and frenetic governments provide more immediate
fish for them to fry. Those who have the time don't have the
inclination, and those that have inclination don't have enough
inclination to provide opportunity... you have to brave the
seasonal bugs and cold... UFOs go unseen. You've got to spend
the time, you see, to see these things that fly so free...
sorry, that just slipped out...

I go out every morning there's a clear sky and spend about an
hour looking up, out, and INTO deep space. I've amassed hundreds
of hours in the past couple years peering into the sky, and I've
seen the damnedest things, already spoken about. I've written
about most of them on this list. I see these things, I think,
because I try not to presuppose or pronounce on what I'm seeing.
I don't self hypnotize that all sightings MUST have prosaic
explanations. I don't _know_ that they're flying saucers, that's
forgetting it's what I suspect. My suspicions are not the issue.
The fact that I'm seeing "something" is.

So.

I'm going to start reporting them here. Every time I have a
significant sighting of the ubiquitous weird I'm going to report
it in this forum, for the record -- date and number 'em. I'll
give time, degree, and description with as much significant
detail as I can. I'm going to do this for two reasons.

One, I am genuinely and I think very rationally concerned about
the general incompetence, neurotic behavior, and contrived
cluelessness of the sullen mainstream regarding its ignored
responsibility to intelligently facilitate an informed public.
Presently the mainstream programs the individual, manipulates
the individual, and disrespects the individual. We're not
getting the whole story, the complete story, or the true story
about ANYTHING! September 11th has only signaled a turn for the
egregious worse... regarding the *rest* of that story. A story
I'm convinced would be to the benefit of every individual on
this planet.

Two... I had a sighting this morning so bizarre I'm busting to
share it with someone out there that may be remotely simpatico,
and not write me off too quickly as your garden variety Net-loon
or Web Wacko... enough people going out to look for these things
might energize a grass roots effort to get to the bottom of
them. I would inspire the going out to look. I think that
there's a reward in it. A satisfaction.

...Ok...

It was 4:50, and as it had been well over an hour (I was outside
from 3:30 on this morning) and the coffee was gone, I thought it
must be about time to mosey on back into the house to write...
I'd just happened to glance over my left shoulder at the North
Star for a final look-around before heading in when, as I
watched, a bright cream colored light blinked on to the left of
Polaris like an energized and pointed aircraft landing light! It
was much brighter than Venus. It was perhaps Venus cubed. I
thought it might be a helicopter making a precautionary landing,
but the light remained stationary, briefly, about three degrees
to the left of the star, and there was NO sound.

I put my glasses on it, and brought them down immediately; it
was like looking into a truck headlamp from ten feet away. I
continued the rest of the observation, mostly unaided, for about
30 remaining seconds. I had time to think that it might be a
super nova... meteors, aircraft, satellites, ball lightning,
fireworks, and gassy pelicans were considered but discarded...

Abruptly, I was startled to see the object begin to move to the
north, seemingly, and as it traveled a total of about 10 degrees
on that track for 20 seconds of the remaining observation, it
dimmed, steadily, to the point where I felt it worthwhile to get
the binoculars back on it again. I was able to keep in view, but
could discern no other details outside a slowly dimming creamy
light moving steadily against the clear star field. Soon I was
having to use off-center viewing, even in the glasses, to keep
it in view. Then it was gone.

It was a great sighting of the inexplicable, friends and
neighbors, but ho-freaking-hum! I'd seen that kind of thing
before. I'd seen one in California with my Mom that was better
than that!

At this point I've got my backside up against a low retaining
wall in my back yard, arms shoved into my pockets -- just
staring off to the east and wondering what the light I'd just
seen _really_ was... when I noticed a flock of light colored
goose-sized birds, flying due west in a large uneven chevron,
getting ready to make a pass directly over my home. Neat.

They were still about an apparent hundred meters away, or so,
and maybe a hundred feet in the air when it began to seem that
they were traveling awfully fast... too fast for birds. And I
couldn't see any wings beating. I threw my field glasses up to
my eyes for a closer look and was astonished to discover that
they were _not_ birds, the wings were NOT flapping. It was about
20 or 25 smaller chevrons flying in the single large uneven
chevron streaking through the sky directly over my head! I
followed them with my glasses.

Abruptly, I lost a sense of how high they were, and I wobbled in
the view field as my knees kind of buckled, I'm a little ashamed
to report. I thought I was made of sterner stuff. The field
glasses came down as the flight of objects silently zipped away.
Perhaps you had to have been there, but this sighting was a real
breath-taker even for a guy that had gotten a little jaded on
peculiar stuff in his backyard sky!

...These birds weren't birds. They were too fast for birds. They
didn't flap like birds. They didn't have the long necks of most
formation flying birds. The field glasses were focused and in
good working order, I was able to see a star field behind the
objects. They looked, a little, like tiny B2 (flying wing)
bombers in my binoculars, traversing about 90 degrees of clear
sky in a little over ten seconds. Fast.

I hung around until the sun started to come up, but the rest of
the morning was uneventful. And that's the way is was. If you
look you see; if you see you find; if you find... well, I'd find
out. Read on.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 23

                               Merry Christmas

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 05:59:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:42:29 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


Merry Christmas! and Happy New year to all of the folks in the
wild, wonderful, world of UpDates!


GT McCoy








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   Dec > Dec 23

                           Fowler's Abductee Files

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:17:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:23:24 -0500
Subject: Fowler's Abductee Files


Hi Jan, Luis, All,

Well I wrote to Ray Fowler inquiring about the disposition of
his abductee file archive and received the following note in
response.

-----------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:09:35 EST
Subject: Re: Abductee files
To: johnvelez.aic@verizon.net

Hi,

Thank you for you kind comments. They were purchased by someone
via a 3rd party who at this time remains unknown to me except
that the files will be made available to researchers in the
future.

Best,

Ray

---------------------------------------------

It wouldn't be fair to Ray to speculate and I'd hate to venture
a guess as to 'who' this "third party" is, but the word
"purchased" in Ray's response is the one that bothers me.

The files are Ray's to dispose of as he wishes. I will make no
further comment on it. I only hope they haven't been swallowed
by that informational black hole, Bigelow/NIDS. He also mentions
that the files will be made available to other researchers in
the future which is hopeful. Let's hope that that proves to be
the case.


Regards,

John Velez










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                         Re: Happy... - Peterborough

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:36:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:26:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Happy... - Peterborough


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:09:15 EST
 >Subject: Happy...
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Meery Christmas everyone! And thank you Karl! Hilarious - well,
maybe true! I still believe in Sanata (well, I have to because I
was engaged to him!)

So let it snow let it snow let it snow!

Errol: Love ya babe!


Kelly









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   Dec > Dec 23

                     UFO Investigation Or Exploitation?

From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:04:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:29:23 -0500
Subject: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation?


I'd appreciate input from members of this List on an issue
that I think I've made up my mind how to handle, but
nevertheless, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who'd
like to comment.

A free-lance (published) writer was referred to me as State
Director for MUFON in Iowa. He's interested in writing a book
about what he considers to be the UFO sub-culture, going so far,
for example, as to state that he would probably include at least
a short segment on what he labels as UFO cults, and he seems
very interested also in the encounter/abduction phenomenon.

During some exploratory conversation he's indicated that in
order to emphasize the _human_ angle, he wants to become
a field investigator.

For me, red flags go up!

It seems to me that becoming an investigator in order to write a
book indicates an individual starting with a somewhat
self-serving purpose in mind, although in all fairness I need to
say that he may see this as just simply the right way to go
about writing on a subject - in a somewhat investigative
reporter mode.

He says he wants to write for the literary-non-fiction-reader,
and leave it up to the reader to decide what he/she thinks of
UFOs. (As an aside, my guess is the book would still end up on
UFO shelves mixed in with the New Age stuff!)

Many witness in Iowa are highly educated, and hold academic as
well as other professional and business related positions which
place them in high profile in their communities. But whether
high-profile or not, most witnesses would be devastated if they
were somehow identified with their sightings and/or encounter
experiences. In my estimation, not only would careers/livelihood
be placed in jeopardy, but also some relationships might not
stand the stress of public attention.

It's obvious to me that this gentleman does not fully understand
the vast difference between writing about a __mundane__ subject
such as, for example, the sub-culture of Ballet, or the
sub-culture of a game like Bridge, as opposed to a subject so
potentially life altering - and with an entirely different set
of potential repercussions - as the UFO enigma. The very real
specter of public ridicule, as well as career and relationship
jeopardy does not - as far as I can tell - exist in the Ballet
or Bridge world. It does, however, exist (bigtime) in the arena
of UFOs. In an investigative situation, I am not interested in
subjecting witnesses to an investigator who is, first of all, a
free-lance writer.

Now, this gentleman may go on to write his book, and that's his
prerogative. But my thinking so far is that within MUFON in
Iowa, I'm not in favor of facilitating his entry into the
investigative process.

If I'm missing something here, please feel free to call it to my
attention.


Thanks

Bev Trout
Iowa MUFON State Director










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                                Re: Happy...

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:15:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:30:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Happy...


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:09:15 EST
 >Subject: Happy...
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >...Humbug to Errol and all our friends, colleagues, and friendly
 >antagonists on Updates from me and the boys on the roof.

 >See:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/122201.html

 >-- Cheers, KARL

Hi Errol,

Let me add my Holiday Greetings to all the rest on this List -
and a special "well done" to you Errol for using so much of your
time in order that we may express ourselves during the year.


Happy Holidays,

Don Ledger









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   Dec > Dec 23

                        A Christmas Rendlesham Story

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:22:18 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:34:26 -0500
Subject: A Christmas Rendlesham Story


I wanted to share (with Mark's permission) this amusing
Christmas Rendlesham post

Best wishes for a Christmas and the New Year

Georgina Bruni

-------------------------------------------------

Dear Georgina,

After many years of research - and having read your excellent
book I am proud to announce that I have solved the Rendlesham
Forest mystery. The lighthouse is not guilty. Similarly, it was
not a meteor, tractor, or crashed satellite, downed Russian or
American plane.

The solution: it was Santa Claus!

Lets look at the facts (and the explanation):

  1. Xmas time (often overlooked fact. Santa only travels around
     this time)

  2. Forest (home of raindeer)

  3. Flying craft (santas sleigh)

  4. White lights in sky (sleigh has headlights - blasted dark at
     night)

  5. Marks in ground (from sleigh's landing gear)

  6. Radiation where craft landed (sleigh was nuclear powered)

  7. Radar sighting (RAF looking for Santa to delivery Xmas
     presents hence they are watching)

  8. Broken branches in trees (sleigh brushes against branches)

  9. Craft manoeuvres away from witnesses (Santa keeping a low
     profile probably works for GCHQ and or NSA in off season)

10. Craft disappears when British police arrive (pretty easy
     one - Santa didnt have a passport or visa, an illegal alien
     (ha ha) pretty obvious that police would arrest a short fat
     man flying an unlicensed nuclear powered sleigh at night
     without a UK licence)

11. Red Light seen thru woods (Rudolph's famous red nose)

12. Lighthouse beam (used as navigation point by raindeer)

13. Porton Downs staff in bio hazard suits examine landing site
     (suits needed because raindeer shit smells real bad, take my
     word for it, we have heaps of raindeer in Australia, trust
     me on this)

14. Col Halt reports something "dripping" off the unknown craft
     (ice melting from sleigh)

I fully realise that faced with this crushing body of evidence
that you might possibly feel a bit disappointed - however do not
feel too bad. After many years of research - two things finally
tipped me off - firstly it was Xmas time - secondly a red light
is seen in the forest. In a flash of inspiration - the answer
came to me - Santa and Rudolph.

I suppose it could have been light reflecting off the bellies of
1200mph flying pelicans - and had it been any other time except
Xmas then this would obviously be the answer. But the Xmas
factor sealed it for me!

To recap - the lighthouse is NOT GUILTY!

It was SANTA !!!


Best regards
Mark Grundy
(posted from Chicargo)








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                     Re: Shermer's Last Law - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:57:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:39:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Salvaille

Hello List,

 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:44:58 -0500
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Shermer's Last Law

 >Shermer's Last Law

 >Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is
 >indistinguishable from God

 >By Michael Shermer

<snip>

 >Moore's Law of computer power doubling every 18 months or so is
 >now approaching a year. Ray Kurzweil, in his book The Age of
 >Spiritual Machines, calculates that there have been 32 doublings
 >since World War II and that the singularity point--the point at
 >which total computational power will rise to levels so far
 >beyond anything that we can imagine that it will appear nearly
 >infinite and thus be indistinguishable from omniscience--may be
 >upon us as early as 2050.

<snip>

Typical compuhogwash.

A computer is nothing but a tool, and a tool is nothing by
itself. Whatever the power of a computer, you need a human to
program it. A program only tries to reproduce human rasonning;
it cannot grow upon itself.

The latest single CPU PowerMac or Pentium 4 reach raw computing
power around 4 giga-flops. The Cray T3E is cooled by water, can
align up to 2048 CPUs and reach 3 TERA- flops.

The increasing power of desktop computers is used largely to
create more realistic game simulations. Supercomputers model
climatic and geophysical systems to eventually predict more
precisely temperature and earthquakes.

Is humanity better than in the pre-computer era?

Not so sure about that.

<snip>

 >Although science has not even remotely destroyed religion,
 >Shermer's Last Law predicts that the relation between the two
 >will be profoundly affected by contact with an ETI. To find out
 >how, we must follow Clarke's Second Law: "The only way of
 >discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little
 >way past them into the impossible." Ad astra!

<snip>

_They_ are already here. And the people won't be told.

Which brings us to the first law of non-evolution:

"Any sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from
stupidity."


Regards,

And Merry Christmass to you all.










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                            Re: Happy... - Zeiler

From: George Zeiler <Gazppi@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:18:18 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:44:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Happy... - Zeiler

 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:36:56 -0500
 >From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Happy...

Well Kelly, nothing is unusual for it is man who grows up
believing in Santa, then not believing in Santa and then
Becoming Santa. Go figure.


Happy Holidays to all

George Zeiler









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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:09:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Subject: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:23:38 -0500

 >Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:15:25 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>The "Official" US Air Force "explanation" for the "bodies" that
 >>were allegedly witnessed and reported in connection to the
 >>Roswell incident is one of the single-most compelling reasons to
 >>question the veracity of the information being provided to us by
 >>our governing officials. The "alien bodies" have always been one
 >>of the more 'questionable' components of the Roswell reports.
 >>Even within ufology itself it has never enjoyed any real
 >>popularity ('firm' position) as being one of the more credible
 >>aspects of the Roswell case.

 >>Yet, the Air Force thought it was important enough to publish an
 >>official excuse/explanation for the "bodies." Makes me go
 >>"hmmmm!" when I see stuff like that coming out of military
 >>officialdom Makes me wonder why they feel they have to "explain"
 >>it at all. As GT and Alfred Lehmberg have expressed, it makes
 >>more curious not less.

 >John, again at the risk of being labeled an Air Force Apologist,
 >the only reason why the AF addressed the issue of recovered
 >bodies at Roswell in the first place is because certain
 >claimants claimed same.

 >What is so difficult to understand about this?
 >The people you should be asking questions of is not the Air
 >Force, but the self-discredited witnesses such as Kaufmann,
 >Ragsdale, Anderson, Dennis and others, who claimed the presence
 >of bodies in the first place.

 >The Air Force was trying to give them an out w/o labeling them
 >outright liars. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?

 >I don't get it.

 >D Stacy

Dennis,

Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
half-empty glass. - Dick









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                      Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story

From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:45:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:12:10 -0500
Subject: Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: A Christmas Rendlesham Story
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:22:18 -0000

 >The solution: it was Santa Claus!

There may just be time for readers to confirm this hypothesis by
watching NORAD tracking Santa this Xmas eve.

Go to http://www.noradsanta.org/ to see the faboulous effort
made by NORAD to keep tabs on the fat fella with the big white
beard.


Dave Bolton

--
David Bolton
David@DBolton.co.uk










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                         Merry Universal Christmas!

From: Timothy D. Hagemeister <director@synethics.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 17:30:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:15:19 -0500
Subject: Merry Universal Christmas!


Subject: The Universal Impact of the Atonement
Date: 05.11.96
Edited By: Timothy David, Director-Synethics, www.synethics.com

As the Christmas season approaches us and its meaning seems more
diluted each year, perhaps we need to look back to the 19th
Century for wisdom regarding its true meaning for our world.
When we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, let us remember His
reason for coming and that it is His Atonement that changed our
world and others forever!

-----

Excerpts by Albert Barnes*

Defenition: Atonement

"...the substituted suffering for human guilt and the salvation
of the soul is regarded as connected with the death of the
Author of the system considered as a sacrifice or expiation for
crime." -Albert Barnes*

The Atonement (of Jesus Christ) may be an important means of
sustaining the Divine government, and may thus have an important
bearing on other worlds. This is a point, indeed, on which we
cannot argue with much certainty; for it lies at present beyond
the sphere of our observation. But there are some things which
may render it not improbable that there may be bearings of the
atonement on other worlds which are now very imperfectly
understood by us, and which must be in a great measure hidden
until we are admitted to the revelations of the future state.

In such passages of Scripture as the following it seems to be
implied that the work of the Redeemer may have an important
bearing on other parts of the universe, and may furnish to other
worlds an illustration of the character of God which could be
obtained from no other source. "Which things the angels desire
to look into."(1 Peter 1:12). "And to make all men see what is
the fellowship of this mystery, which from the beginning of the
world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus
Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and
powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the
manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which
he proposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Ephesians 3:9-11). "For
it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell,
and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they
be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Colossians 1:19-20).
The same idea may be expressed also in Ephesians 1:10:-"That the
dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together
in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which
are on earth."

It is not to be supposed that we could fully comprehend all the
bearings of the work of the atonement on other worlds, or the
grounds of the interest which angelic beings are represented as
taking in the incarnation of the Son of God; but even with our
imperfect and limited vision we can see that there must be
important reasons why the inhabitants of other worlds should
feel an interest in the redemption of a lost world.

(a.) The revolt of a world is an event which must attract
attention. Nothing gives more conspicuity than crime. A man
before insignificant and unknown becomes at once exalted to
notoriety by becoming a murderer; a commander of a vessel at sea
would have been otherwise undistinguished attracts the attention
of nations by becoming a pirate; an officer in an army who would
have been soon forgotten in performing the common duties of his
station sends down his name to future times by becoming a
traitor; a world that might have been undistinguished may become
known to all the hosts of worlds by a revolt from the government
of the Creator. The earth, therefore, though among the least of
the worlds which God has made, may be among the most
distinguished; for it is the theatre of revolt from the
government of God, and is illustrating in scenes of sorrow the
effect of violation of the Divine laws.

(b.) The question whether a race of rebels could be pardoned
would be one that would be of interest to distant worlds. In
illustration of this, we may assume the truth of the statement
in the Bible that one other order of beings has fallen, and that
the sentence of the broken law was executed upon them with no
arrangements made for pardon. If we suppose that the fallen
angels have been left in their state of rebellion with no
provision made for their recovery; if we suppose that their
revolt made it certain that they would never be restored to
favor; if we suppose that there were no incipient and perceived
arrangements made for their restoration; if we suppose that this
had continued for a period which would constitute ages as we
measure duration, and if we suppose that a new revolt, under
their influence, should break out in a new world and under
circumstances materially different from the former revolt, it
would be too much to infer that the question about the pardon of
revolted subjects of the Almighty was so definitely settled by
the former revolt that it should awaken no interest in the yet
unfallen ranks of beings before the throne of God.

The inquiry could not but occur whether this race would be
consigned also to punishment with no hope of remission, or
whether some arrangement would be made to check and stay the
evil and to prevent the consequences of the apostasy. And though
the question would be one which no light could be thrown from
experience, yet it is not unreasonable to suppose that all the
difficulties would occur in regard to the question of pardon
which we have found actually to encompass it. To angelic beings
the difficulties might be as much beyond their range of
observation as they are beyond ours. What has surpassed all the
wisdom of legislators and statesmen-the proper adjusting of the
exercise of mercy with the claims of justice-might be also
beyond the reach of angelic intellect.

There is no reason to suppose that the device of an atonement
would have occurred to them as a practicable arrangement; it
could not be supposed that they would infer that even the Divine
benevolence would suggest this. It might not be that any of the
expressions of that benevolence before made would suggest or
justify the inference that it would prompt to the exercise of
mercy. From any thing that appears, the question of pardon would
be as much above the comprehension of angelic beings as it has
been above the practical adjustment of the most wise and
benevolent of the legislators of earth. And yet the statements
in the Bible which imply that they did feel an interest in the
question are such as naturally follow from all the conceptions
which we must form of the benevolence of unfallen beings.

(c.) We may suppose that the inhabitants of other worlds may see
in the atonement some development of the Divine character which
could not be elsewhere seen. The reasons for this opinion are
such as the following.

1. It is reasonable to suppose that the inhabitants of other
worlds desire to become acquainted with the character and
government of God; and it is equally reasonable to suppose that,
in a great measure, they become acquainted with the character
and government from what they see in his works. The universe
seems to have been designed to convey to intelligent creatures a
knowledge of God; and we have no reason to suppose that, as a
great law, even unfallen beings can become acquainted with him
except through his works. Those works, so vast and so varied,
appear to be adapted to the eternal contemplation of created
minds. It was a great problem so to create mind, and so to adapt
the universe to it, that it might have employment forever,-that
the works of God should be such that there would never come over
any created intellect, however exalted, the feeling that the
subject was exhausted; that there remained nothing of God to be
learned; that there were no fields of unexplored inquiry and
thought.

2. Each one of the worlds appears to have been so made as to
furnish some peculiar view of God; to teach some lesson which
could not be learned from any other world; to convey some truth
about the Divine character which could be seen nowhere else.
This seems to be manifest from the wonderful variety in the
worlds which God has made,-the variety in their size, their
motions, their appendages, their orbits. Even with our very
imperfect knowledge of the subject, we can see that there would
be things to learn of God on the planet Mars which could not be
on the earth; on Jupiter, which could not be on Mars; on Saturn,
which could not be on Jupiter; on the Sun, which could not be on
any of the planets; on double stars, which could not be on one
solitary sun; on the distant nebulae, which could not be on the
galaxy or milky way-the nebulae of which our solar system is a
part. It is not improbable that on each of those worlds there
may be a development of some attribute of God of which we can
now form no conception; some trait of character a knowledge of
which could not now be conveyed to beings with our imperfect
powers, though it might be to those of a higher order; and that
even beyond all this, there may be depths in the Divine
nature-an infinity of attributes and perfections-which even
those higher orders of intelligences have now no powers to
penetrate or comprehend,-as far above them as their knowledge is
above us.

3. It is probable that what is to be learned from our world of
the works and ways of God is to be in connection with the
manifestation of his character in the salvation of the guilty;
and perhaps this is to be learned in our world alone. The
greatness, the majesty, the wisdom, the goodness of God may be
seen in other worlds in lessons far surpassing in impressiveness
and grandeur those which can be learned from the earth. The
angels do not need to come to our world to gain wisdom and
knowledge on any of these subjects. The earth is not
distinguished for its magnitude, for peculiar beauty, or for
grandeur of movement, above other worlds. The dwellers in other
worlds need not come down to us to learn lessons of grandeur
from our hills and mountains, from our oceans or rivers, from
our caves or cataracts. To those who have ranged from world to
world amidst the works of God, there might not be any thing that
would attract attention in the vast ocean, so sublime in the
view of man; in the storm and tempest; in Mont Blanc or in
Niagara. Still less would they be attracted by the monuments
that man has reared; the works of art and power that so impress
our minds; the Pyramid, the mausoleum, the triumphal arch, the
monuments that have been raised to mark the place where sleep
the illustrious dead. Hence, in the visits of angels to the
earth, we are never told of their being attracted to Thebes or
Palmyra, to the Pantheon or the Parthenon, to Marathon or
Leuctra. We find them in the humble abode of Mary, and at
Bethlehem; in the Garden of Gethsemane; at the grave of the
Saviour; at Mount Olivet. Frequent as have been the visits of
angels to our world, there is no evidence that they have been
attracted to the Vatican or the Louvre, that they have felt the
slightest interest in the Cartoons of Raphael, the Last Judgment
of Michael Angelo, or the sculptures of Canova.

If it be asked, then, what angelic beings could be supposed to
learn on earth which they could not learn in other worlds,-what
gives to our world any distinction or peculiarity as
illustrating the perfections of God,-our answer must be that
this is to be found in the arrangements for the pardon of sin,
in blending together in the work of redemption the attributes of
justice and mercy. In no human government, as we have seen, have
these attributes been blended. In no individual character on
earth have they been perfectly combined. In no other world, so
far as we know, have they been united. Angelic beings,
therefore, could see in the work of redemption on earth a
manifestation of the character of God more interesting by far,
as we must suppose, than the exhibition of power and wisdom in
the work of creation; and hence they were attracted to
Bethlehem, to the Garden of Gethsemane, to the sepulchre where
the Redeemer had lain, and to Mount Olivet; and hence they are
attracted to every spot where a sinner weeps over his sins and
seeks pardon and salvation through the blood of the cross.

There may be bearings of the atonement on other worlds which we
cannot now understand; for as yet we see but little of the
effect of the great work of the incarnation of the Son of God.
It is possible that some of the highest developments of the
effects of the atonement may yet be made on distant worlds. No
one can demonstrate that the remark of Lord Bacon will not yet
be found to be true:-"All things in time and eternity have
respect to the Mediator, which is the great mystery and perfect
centre of all God's ways, and to which all his other works and
wonders do but serve and refer."


*The Atonement- Albert Barnes. Originally published in 1860 by
Lindsay & Blakiston. Published by Bethany Fellowship, Inc. 6820
Auto Club Road, Minneapolis, MN 55438









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             Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 02:35:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:18:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein


 >From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation?
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:04:22 -0800

 >I'd appreciate input from members of this List on an issue
 >that I think I've made up my mind how to handle, but
 >nevertheless, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who'd
 >like to comment.

 >A free-lance (published) writer was referred to me as State
 >Director for MUFON in Iowa. He's interested in writing a book
 >about what he considers to be the UFO sub-culture, going so far,
 >for example, as to state that he would probably include at least
 >a short segment on what he labels as UFO cults, and he seems
 >very interested also in the encounter/abduction phenomenon.

 >During some exploratory conversation he's indicated that in
 >order to emphasize the _human_ angle, he wants to become
 >a field investigator.

 >For me, red flags go up!

 >It seems to me that becoming an investigator in order to write a
 >book indicates an individual starting with a somewhat
 >self-serving purpose in mind, although in all fairness I need to
 >say that he may see this as just simply the right way to go
 >about writing on a subject - in a somewhat investigative
 >reporter mode.

 >He says he wants to write for the literary-non-fiction-reader,
 >and leave it up to the reader to decide what he/she thinks of
 >UFOs. (As an aside, my guess is the book would still end up on
 >UFO shelves mixed in with the New Age stuff!)

 >Many witness in Iowa are highly educated, and hold academic as
 >well as other professional and business related positions which
 >place them in high profile in their communities. But whether
 >high-profile or not, most witnesses would be devastated if they
 >were somehow identified with their sightings and/or encounter
 >experiences. In my estimation, not only would careers/livelihood
 >be placed in jeopardy, but also some relationships might not
 >stand the stress of public attention.

 >It's obvious to me that this gentleman does not fully understand
 >the vast difference between writing about a __mundane__ subject
 >such as, for example, the sub-culture of Ballet, or the
 >sub-culture of a game like Bridge, as opposed to a subject so
 >potentially life altering - and with an entirely different set
 >of potential repercussions - as the UFO enigma. The very real
 >specter of public ridicule, as well as career and relationship
 >jeopardy does not - as far as I can tell - exist in the Ballet
 >or Bridge world. It does, however, exist (bigtime) in the arena
 >of UFOs. In an investigative situation, I am not interested in
 >subjecting witnesses to an investigator who is, first of all, a
 >free-lance writer.

 >Now, this gentleman may go on to write his book, and that's his
 >prerogative. But my thinking so far is that within MUFON in
 >Iowa, I'm not in favor of facilitating his entry into the
 >investigative process.

 >If I'm missing something here, please feel free to call it to my
 >attention.

 >Thanks

 >Bev Trout
 >Iowa MUFON State Director


Hello Bev and all fellow Listerions,

I would like to start by wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy
Hannukah, and a Happy New Year.

Bev, I have always appreciated your sensible contributions to UFO
research.

Thanks for asking this List for advice. I was a MUFON member for
about 20 years. During that period I was a field investigator
and a state section director in several locations in California.
I left MUFON a couple of years ago due to problems within the
international organization and its attempts to be both a
research organization and a public information organization.
There were no real objective standards for the directors and for
the image the chapters would present to the public.

I was chosen by the state director to direct part of the state
because I had performed a number of investigations, had started new
groups, and put on public forums.

I don't know what your needs are in Iowa but to me thie person
named above sounds decidedly unqualified as a state director. He
seems to have no real interest other than a mundane view of
abductions and excperiencers. What has he contributed on his own?
He has not even been a field investigator. Bev, my hunch is that
your red flags are waving for good reasons. I suggest that you look
at the requirements of a state director of Iowa and weigh them
against who, in all the chapters, is in a position to contribute
the most and has the desire to coordinate the search for truth in
Iowa and objectively present it to the public.

Take care,

Josh











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                                Feliz Navidad

From: Alberto Diaz <alberto_diaz@gmx.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:23:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:20:37 -0500
Subject: Feliz Navidad


Feliz Navidad y paz para el mundo

Merry Christmas and peace for the world






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              Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:54:51 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:22:16 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons?


The Cydonian Imperative
12-24-01

Trio of Possible Martian Hexagons
by Mac Tonnies

Please see: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


[image]

Possible Martian hexagons as presented by J.P. Levasseur.

Researcher J.P. Levasseur has emailed me the above image, which
shows at least one strikingly faceted hexagon. Levasseur's
annotations show that a right angle is produced when all three
formations are viewed from above. As noted elsewhere throughout
this site, hexagons are unexpectedly prevalent on Mars. While
intriguing geometric shapes can occur naturally, it comes as a
surprise when three such shapes happen to be arranged in a
geometrically significant way.

Levasseur's hexagons could be unusual craters (although, in my
opinion, they appear rather too "neat"). There is a suspicious
lack of debris if these are the calderas of ancient volcanoes or
impacts. Note that the formation on the far left is surrounded
by possible structure at right angles to the depression (see
Levasseur's tracing, inset), which isn't easily explained in
geological terms. (Another example of a geometric formation at
right angles to a nearby crater is the Cliff in Cydonia.)

If the hexagonal depressions are artificial, perhaps they are
shafts linking underground facilities to the surface. But until
new high-resolution images are taken, the precise outline of
these enticing forms is likely to remain the subject of some
debate.


-end-









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                                  Ho Ho Ho

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:22:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:23:54 -0500
Subject: Ho Ho Ho


I knew there was a reason why I liked Christmas.... from:
http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/118_santan.shtml

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BEHIND SANTA'S GENIAL SMILE LIES A 70,000 YEAR OLD ANIMIST
TRADITION OF A BEAST MAN... PHYLLIS SIEFKER UNMASKS THE ULTIMATE
BEDROOM INVADER.

As the Christmas season engulfs us, Santa Claus, Father
Christmas, and their international counterparts beam at us from
every medium, hawking earthly treasures to delight our loved
ones.

As we watch this portly figure entice us with baubles, we are
witnessing the last remnant of the oldest sacred figure that
exists, for Santa's past is full of ancient mysteries, with a
depth few imagined. In the Middle Ages he was a Wild Man, a
beast-man who jousted with knights in Merrie Olde England and
dashed through Germanic streets during Carnival, frightening
children and adults alike. In the Sixth Century, he was a
beast-god so powerful that Pope Gregory the Great chose him to
be Christianity's poster child for evil - the cloven-hoofed,
goatish devil figure that persists even today. For millennia
before that, he was worshiped as a god whose annual death was a
necessity for life on earth itself.

Tracking the elusive Jolly Old Elf's history involved a
labyrinthine journey that would make Daedalus proud. The search
began with 19th century gift givers in America, Britain, and
Germany. These gift givers appeared at end-of-year celebrations,
but didn't travel alone; they were accompanied by a predictable
entourage, no matter what country they trod. Santa's companions
invariably included a Bessy - a man dressed as a woman - and
assorted merrymakers dressed in goat or bear skins or wearing
goat or bear masks. The other characters varied; usually there
was a comic doctor and often an archer. Of course, America's
Christmas Man wasn't called Santa at the time; he gained that
name in the mid-1800s. First, he was Pelznichol, or Nicholas in
Furs; in Nova Scotia he was the Janney; in Trinidad he was Papa
Bois; in Great Britain he was Yule until Ben Johnson christened
him Father Christmas in his 1616 Christmas Masque. His names
were as varied as the communities he both terrorized and
blessed.

The Wild Man's motley crew went door-to-door, demanding entry.
After the raucous group was welcomed, they acted out an odd play
- the leader, who dressed in goat or bear skins, argued with
another character or with the woman figure. He was killed, the
woman lamented, and the doctor comically resuscitated him, or he
spontaneously revived, declaring he wasn't dead after all.
Before the troupe left to visit the next house, they demanded
gifts. This might sound somewhat familiar; today's Halloween
trick-or-treaters carry on a juvenile version of the original
visit - going house to house, demanding gifts and treats. In the
bygone adult festival, the troupe gave its blessing and shared
fruits of the land with the inhabitants, or wreaked havoc and
cursed the homes if they weren't well received.

This invasion didn't take place at only at Yuletide; in Germany,
Carnival signaled the Wild Man's wild rush into town in the
Schembartlauf (run of bearded men). In other countries, the wild
run usually ended winter's reign, but no matter what the time of
year or what country, there were arresting similarities. In the
18th century, an emerging breed of "folklorists" noted these
similarities and began to record these festivals and theorize
about their origins. Jacob Grimm made a herculean effort to
record Germany's folk customs before they disappeared, and
scholars in Great Britain managed to accumulate some of the most
extensive collection of local rituals. These rituals encompass a
wide range of mumming activities with the ever-present Fool, an
offspring of the Wild Man and precursor of Father Christmas.

Those who study and categorize Britain's mumming rituals sort
them into three main types - the wooing ceremony, which includes
Plough Monday peregrinations, the sword play, and the Saint
George Play. All have a death and resurrection; of course this
death and resurrection in historical festivals is a comic one,
but these activities are remnants of a more serious death - the
death of the Wild Man, the beast-god who was responsible for
life on earth.

Richard Bernheimer pieced together the basic fertility ritual
from which these plays derive in his book Wild Men in the Middle
Ages. In that ritual, a town's young unmarried men went to the
woods to hunt the Wild Man or stir him from his cave. The
largest and strongest of the men dressed in animal skins and
horns to play the role of the Wild Man. He was captured,
chained, and dragged back to the village. Since he was, after
all, a Wild Man, he had torn up a tree or two to drag with him,
showing his power; in the village these trees became the May
Pole and the Yule Log. Because he was a god of the elements of
nature - thunder and lightning - the villagers fired guns and
beat drums to herald his arrival.

Chains dangling from his body, the Wild Man and his companions
made a mad dash into town, frightening and beating bystanders;
one of the devices he used to beat villagers was a giant
phallus, his symbol as a fertility god. In the village square,
he mated with a village wench (or wild woman, if one was
available), then was killed by an archer. He revived or was
replaced by a son. The mood was bedlam; the humor as course as
it comes; and everyone was both excited and terrified.

Folklorists who debated the origins of these holiday activities
were delighted when world traveler and Renaissance man R. M.
Dawkins happened upon a fairly untouched version of this ritual
in the Balkans in 1906. In this festival, large, blackened,
humpbacked goat-men shambled through the village with bells
around their waists and ankles. The leader carried a huge
phallus; another carried a crossbow. An old woman carried a doll
in a basket. As they went from house to house, the phallic
goat-man pounded the phallus on the door and demanded money. In
the course of the parade, the baby grew to manhood quite
suddenly and demanded a bride. When she was supplied, the pair
copulated, the archer shot the newly satisfied groom, the bride
grieved, and the goat man revived. After receiving a gift from
the homes where they performed, the paraders dragged a plough
through the village.

This discovery was Nirvana for folklorists - they found all the
elements of the mumming plays; the Fool was in his original
beast form; the death and execution were enacted amorally. In
later plays, the Fool or beast-man is often killed by a young
groom because he "makes a pass at" the Woman, and narrators
explain the behavior with a comic script. In the Balkan version,
the inhabitants didn't need a verbal explanation; the ritual had
been part of their lives for centuries. Only in more recent
times did the master of ceremonies or narrator emerge.

This Balkan festival was the finest modern discovery yet of the
ancient rite of the god's birth, sacred marriage, death, and
sacrifice for his people. Better yet, it was found in Greece.
Scholars concluded that the hundreds of versions peppering
Europe could be traced to the great goat-god Dionysus. After
all, the Dionysian rites gave birth to modern theater; even the
word tragedy means goat song. Under this diffusionist scenario,
Dionysus and his counterparts Adonis and Bacchus spread
throughout Europe with spread of the Roman Empire.

This conclusion reflected a myopic flaw in many prehistorians'
thinking-that everything emanated from the Mediterranean, the
"cradle of civilization." But we find these rituals in the
Arctic Circle among people neither the Romans nor the Catholics
found worth their time to conquer or even visit in those days.
There, among the Lapps, the Vogul, and the Gilyaks some of the
purist, most ancient rituals continued. We also find the
ceremonies among the enigmatic Ainu, the aboriginal Japanese.

Among these Arctic peoples and the Ainu we discover the original
"storyline" of the ritual that found its way to ancient Japan,
Russia, Western and Northern Europe, and the Mediterranean. In
these ceremonies, the Master of the Mountain sends his gods to
his people as a bear to keep them from starving. In the
ceremony, the people rouse the hibernating beast in its cave,
and the best marksman ritually executes it with an arrow. They
prepare and mount the skin and skull in a certain manner, then
share the god's bounty in a feast.

In a ceremony of gratitude and honor the hunters re-enact a tale
of the bear's life - how it found a mate and bore an offspring,
then was killed by an archer. The people thank the bear for its
gift of life and send the emissary's spirit back to the gods,
until it returns next year. Here we find the arrow, the mating,
the sacrifice and rebirth, and the other accouterments we find
in today's mumming plays - even the ivy-crowned head.

How old is this ritual of bear and goat worship that found its
way to areas as widespread as the Mediterranean and the Arctic
Circle? There is evidence this bear sacrifice was carried out
more than 50,000 years ago; early 20th-century German excavatons
of the Wild Man's Cave and other caves in the High Alps
discovered altars to the bear with bearskins and skulls ritually
treated exactly as the Arctic peoples treated them.

Anthropologist Josepn Campbell and invesfigating anthropologists
made the connection between these ancient finds and the arctic
rituals and dated them to about 70,000 BC.

Of course. Homo sapiens sapiens - modern humans - weren't around
then; Neanderthals performed these ancient rituals. Later
archaeological excavations reveal Neanderthas sacrificed in the
same manner as the bears. The question inevitably arises whether
the original Wild Man was a Neanderthal, perhaps performing a
bear ritual.

The history of the death and resurrection of the beast-god that
sired Santa is older than Greece, even older than modern humans.
It was a ceremony of death and resurrection, of life and
fertility, carried on by an ancient aboriginal people - called
elves or fairies by later settlers - and adopted by these
settlers, who replaced them and continued the sacred rituals
throughout Europe.

Of course, burgeoning Christianity vigorously fought to suppress
this widespread "pagan" ritual, but it persisted. In response,
the church used the Wild Man's form to depict its Satan. Under
pressure from Christianity, villagers, holding to their old
festivals while adopting the new Christian religion, managed to
keep the old Wild Man alive by transforming him. In village
festivals he became the Fool; in this role he strode at the
front of his old troupe as master of ceremonies, the outspoken
comic who introduced the troupe and made fun of local citizens
and mores. In this role he evolved into the symbol of Christmas
in America, Great Britain, Sweden, Norway, and Germany. This
fur-clad fool and social commentator took yet another direction
in Italy, where, as Harlequin, he evolved from Medieval Devil to
a primary figure in the commedia dell'arte and became a standard
character in French and British Christmases. In all, the Wild
Man adapted in almost infinite ways under pressures from Church,
State, and the varying influences of civilisation.

In many areas, the beast-man changed little, and today the
ancient festivals persist in places the great past tides of
civilisation barely lapped. The hair-covered Chlaus yodel in
Urnasch, Switzerland; the beast-masked Narren leap through Black
Forest villages; the King of the Puck Fair is hoisted in
Killorglin, Ireland; the blackened, goat-bearded berika romp in
Georgia; the Perchta runners re-enact a death and resurrection
ritual on the fields of Austria. The Ainu ritually enact their
sacred ritual for tourists. The Paper Boys romp in Marshfield,
Gloucestershire, and Crookham, and, in Grenoside, the sword
dancing team ritually "executes" their captain.

Germany's carnival elements also live on in the well-known
Christmas poem A Visit from Saint Nicholas, which begins: "'Twas
the night before Christmas, and all through the house..." There
we see the old troupe preserved as reindeer: Dasher, Dancer, and
Prancer are the raucous, high-stepping, hair-clad dancers that
signalled the start of Carnival; Vixen is the Wild Woman; Cupid
is the archer who ended the god's life; Comet the sleigh of one
of the Wild Man's versions - the Wild Hunter; Donder and Blitzen
(thunder and lightning) are the hallmarks of the Wild Man's
dominion over nature.

In some instances the Wild Man survives as a famous folk figure
- in fact, some of our best known folk characters trace their
origin to this original mystery. In Britain, he became Robin
Goodfellow or Puck, celebrated by Shakespeare; Goodfellow's
cousin Robin Hood began life as Wood, a name for the Wild Man.
In the Black Forest, the Pied Piper of Hamelin re-enacts poet
Robert Browning's version of the ancient mystery.

And, of course, there's Santa Claus. As the ancient beast-god of
old, he continues to bring bounty and promise to us each year,
despite seemingly insurmountable odds. Gods, religions, nations
and even hominid species have risen and fallen while he somehow
persists. No wonder he winks as he sips his Coca-Cola.









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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.24.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:41:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:34:44 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.24.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

December 24, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
12.24.01


Decoding E.T.: In Search of a Cosmic Rosetta Stone
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_rosetta_011220.html

The Hand of God: Thoughts and Images Reflecting the Spirit of the Universe
http://www.space.com/spacelibrary/books/library_reagan_011221.html

Coolest Space Science Images of 2001
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/coolest_2001_011221.html

Bacterial Explanation for Europa's Rosy Glow
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns99991647

Ice Melter Could Find Europa's Warm Heart
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/europa_life_011219-1.html

If Santa Were a Martian
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/solar_system/features/vortex.html

More Evidence for 'Nanobes'
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/space/SpaceRepublish_444160.htm

The Science of Ball Lightning
http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/phil_maths/news/balllight_template1.html

Scientists Spot New 'Mystery Squid'
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/21/giant.squid.ap/index.html

____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com

Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


THE ERAS PROJECT

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2001








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                 Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:58:08 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:45:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian


 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:54:51 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons?
 >To: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>

 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >12-24-01

 >Trio of Possible Martian Hexagons
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >Please see: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


 >[image]

 >Possible Martian hexagons as presented by J.P. Levasseur.

 >Researcher J.P. Levasseur has emailed me the above image, which
 >shows at least one strikingly faceted hexagon. Levasseur's
 >annotations show that a right angle is produced when all three
 >formations are viewed from above. As noted elsewhere throughout
 >this site, hexagons are unexpectedly prevalent on Mars. While
 >intriguing geometric shapes can occur naturally, it comes as a
 >surprise when three such shapes happen to be arranged in a
 >geometrically significant way.

<snip>

Dear Mac, List, Errol,

Thanks, Mac - for the thankless job of creating something which
creates controversy. It is a thankless job. Like Errol's List, like
Gesundt's Gripple and etc.

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Present the
anomalies and be accused of representing a theory. Don't present the
anomaly and be accused of letting others do the work. It's a curse.

So, from my bottom and the rest of me, thank you for working hard to
present a picture of Mars we would not otherwise get. Thank you for up
with putting all the criticism, the angst and the bovine excrement
which is deep seated in the bowels of everyone here. It's only nachel.
And it makes for a good deal of... uh... loudness, at times.

Remember the old saying... you will when I say it differently:

Tell one joke... just one lousy joke... and you're a joker the rest of
your life. (sigh) I shall go suck on a lollipop made from frozen
Gripple. It's so... refreshing.


With respect,


Jim










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                     Re: Shermer's Last Law - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:05:15 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:47:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Mortellaro


 >Scource: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2002/0102issue/0102skeptic.html


 >Shermer's Last Law

 >Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is
 >indistinguishable from God

Dear List, Errol,

I've tried so very hard not to say anything, it being Christmas
and all. But I just cannot hepl myself. I have to speak.

Presumably, Mr. Squirmer... Squirter... Scherman... whatever,
presumably, your own development as a modern day 'human' (heh, heh)
has not progressed enough to not see the technology of a superior race
of entities as Divine. Too bad. Well, the rest of us have progressed
far enough to recognize flying saucers as likely not angels, God-like
creatures sent by that Big Guy, or devils in disguise.

The next time you see a flying saucer, please do not prostrate
yourself and begin to pray to the god of saucers. They might think the
rest of us are as dim a bulb as you.

 >By Michael Shermer

Oy Veh.

 >...........

 >As scientist extraordinaire and author of an empire of
 >science-fiction books, Arthur C. Clarke is one of the
 >farthest-seeing visionaries of our time. His pithy quotations
 >tug harder than those of most futurists on our collective
 >psyches for their insights into humanity and our unique place in
 >the cosmos. And none do so more than his famous Third Law: "Any
 >sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
 >magic."

Yeah, if'n your name is Squirmin Sherman

 >This observation stimulated me to think about the impact the
 >discovery of an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) would have
 >on science and religion. To that end, I would like to immodestly
 >propose Shermer's Last Law (I don't believe in naming laws after
 >oneself, so as the good book says, the last shall be first and
 >the first shall be last): "Any sufficiently advanced ETI is
 >indistinguishable from God."

First off, I really do not wish to hear _anything_ about your
stimulation. Second, I pray to the Great God above, the One what made
us all, including (Oh my God - ) _you_, that this really _is_ your
last law!

 >God is typically described by Western religions as omniscient
 >and omnipotent. Because we are far from possessing these traits,
 >how can we possibly distinguish a God who has them absolutely
 >from an ETI who merely has them copiously relative to us? We
 >can't. But if God were only relatively more knowing and powerful
 >than we are, then by definition the deity would be an ETI!

 >Consider that biological evolution operates at a snail's pace
 >compared with technological evolution (the former is Darwinian
 >and requires generations of differential reproductive success;
 >the latter is Lamarckian and can be accomplished within a single
 >generation). Then, too, the cosmos is very big and very empty.
 >Voyager 1, our most distant spacecraft, hurtling along at more
 >than 38,000 miles per hour, will not reach the distance of even
 >our sun's nearest neighbor, the Alpha Centauri system (which it
 >is not headed toward), for more than 75,000 years.

Wow, no kidding? Musta been sumpin OldBarge had nothing to do
with.

 >Ergo, the probability that an ETI only slightly more advanced
 >than we are will make contact is virtually nil. If we ever do
 >find an ETI, it will be as though a million-year-old Homo
 >erectus were dropped into the 21st century, given a computer and
 >cell phone and instructed to communicate with us. The ETI would
 >be to us as we would be to this early hominid--godlike.

No, Squirmer, it's "Cogito, ergo... Zoom!"

 >Because of science and technology, our world has changed more in
 >the past century than in the previous 100 centuries. It took
 >10,000 years to get from the dawn of civilization to the
 >airplane but just 66 years to get from powered flight to a lunar
 >landing.

 >Moore's Law of computer power doubling every 18 months or so is
 >now approaching a year. Ray Kurzweil, in his book The Age of
 >Spiritual Machines, calculates that there have been 32 doublings
 >since World War II and that the singularity point--the point at
 >which total computational power will rise to levels so far
 >beyond anything that we can imagine that it will appear nearly
 >infinite and thus be indistinguishable from omniscience--may be
 >upon us as early as 2050.

 >Snip

Sirs and any Madams hangin around... anyone who may understand your
culapability and iggerantz as well as I do can understand that ET is
not God. Maybe a bunch of modern day Kirk's but not God.

The Author

 >Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine
 >(www.skeptic.com) and author of The Borderlands of
 >Science.


 >...............

 >UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist for the lead

Cheese... I don't see why!









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                 Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:01:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:49:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Goldstein



 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 17:30:15 -0600
 >From: Timothy D. Hagemeister <director@synethics.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Merry Universal Christmas!

 >Subject: The Universal Impact of the Atonement
 >Date: 05.11.96
 >Edited By: Timothy David, Director-Synethics, www.synethics.com

 >As the Christmas season approaches us and its meaning seems more
 >diluted each year, perhaps we need to look back to the 19th
 >Century for wisdom regarding its true meaning for our world.
 >When we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, let us remember His
 >reason for coming and that it is His Atonement that changed our
 >world and others forever!

 >-----

 >Excerpts by Albert Barnes*

 >Defenition: Atonement

 >"...the substituted suffering for human guilt and the salvation
 >of the soul is regarded as connected with the death of the
 >Author of the system considered as a sacrifice or expiation for
 >crime." -Albert Barnes*

 >The Atonement (of Jesus Christ) may be an important means of
 >sustaining the Divine government, and may thus have an important
 >bearing on other worlds. This is a point, indeed, on which we
 >cannot argue with much certainty; for it lies at present beyond
 >the sphere of our observation. But there are some things which
 >may render it not improbable that there may be bearings of the
 >atonement on other worlds which are now very imperfectly
 >understood by us, and which must be in a great measure hidden
 >until we are admitted to the revelations of the future state.

Hello Timothy and fellow Listerions,

Today is Christmas eve and I once again wish all Christian members of
this list a Merry Christmas. Tim, I don't know your purpose of posting
the above but for non- religious folks such as myself it is just a
religious tract. I did not quote your entire message because I did not
think it was appropriate. There was nothing from your own mind but
just a bunch of dogma quoted from the 1800s. It is operating under the
assumption that a God exists, that the Bible proves so, and that not
only earthlings but also aliens must atone not only to themselves but
to some personal "God".

For a more intelligent view of the God question mystery I suggest that
you read the following book:

The Mind of God by Paul Davies, 1992, a Touchstone book by Simon &
Schuster.

"Stimulating and exciting... Shows how scientists, like the ancient
philosophers before them, continue to struggle with rconciling the
eternal and the ephemeral."   --The New York Times Book Review.


Thanks,

Josh












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                       Re: Shermer's Last Law - Jonach

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 10:23:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:11:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Jonach


Errol

 >-----Original Message-----
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto [mailto:ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net]
 >Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:45 PM
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - :
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Shermer's Last Law

 >Scource: Scientific American

 >Moore's Law of computer power doubling every 18 months or so is
 >now approaching a year. Ray Kurzweil, in his book The Age of
 >Spiritual Machines, calculates that there have been 32 doublings
 >since World War II and that the singularity point...may be
 >upon us as early as 2050.

You might want to glance at the following article from the same
issue of Scientific American, about multi-layered silicon chips.
The author draws a clever analogy between skyscrapers (which
grow vertically) and shopping malls (which spread out
horizontally).

A Vertical Leap for Microchips

http://www.sciam.com/2002/0102issue/0102lee.html

The 3D chips are made possible because of advances in LCD
technology, the display screens you find on any modern laptop
computer. This is another example of how technology tends to
leap-frog ahead, based on seemingly unrelated capabilities.

Did you read about the quantum computing milestone that IBM
achieved? It was published in Nature this past week...

Experimental realization of Shor's quantum factoring algorithm
using nuclear magnetic resonance

http://cryptome.org/shor-nature.htm

Compared with the 3D silicon, the IBM development is very
experimental at this point. But, we are on the way to some
extraordinary computing, as Shermer has echoed. My guess is that
the 3D silicon will fill the "technology gap" until some of the
more theoretical technologies become viable.

 >This observation stimulated me to think about the impact the
 >discovery of an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) would have
 >on science and religion.

So, what is Shermer trying to say here about about the impact of
technology on ETI? I won't put words in his mouth, but it seems
to me that we migh eventually get so technologically advanced as
to appear to be "aliens unto ourselves"?

-kj









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                 Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:07:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:12:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian


 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:54:51 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons?
 >To: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>

 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >12-24-01

 >Trio of Possible Martian Hexagons
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >Please see: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Those are very impressive, especially the one at the upper
portion of the picture. It shows a hexagon shape to the interior
as well as to its exterior. I see no way that that could be any
natural feature.


Jim Deardorff









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              Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:50:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:15:28 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Maccabee


 >From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation?
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:04:22 -0800

 >I'd appreciate input from members of this List on an issue
 >that I think I've made up my mind how to handle, but
 >nevertheless, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who'd
 >like to comment.

Sounds to me as if you have this situation pegged.

I gather that the guy is a non-technical person who apparently
thinks that the UFO subject could be his ticket to the 'big
time' if he presents a discussion based on personalities or
witnesses. He probably knows nothing about the 'hardware' of the
phenomenon.

At any rate he sounds like the guy who spent about 4 hours with
me some 15(?) years ago to write a feature UFO article in a
local paper. I had provided him with what I thought was a
'erudite' discussion of photos, analysis, etc. He began his
article in a less than asupicious way:

"Well, he doesn't look like a nut....."


and it got no better after that.










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                               Merry Christmas

From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:27:02 +1300 (NZDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:17:20 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas


Greetings List Readers

I would like to wish everyone a Very Merry Christmas and best
wishes for the New Year

On a more humourous side I post the following analysis of
"Santa"


Regards

Murray Bott



The Science of Santa.
*********************

As a result of an overwhelming lack of requests, and with
research help from that renowned scientific journal SPY Magazine
(January, 1990) - I am pleased to present a scientific inquiry
into Santa Claus.

1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000
species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most
of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule
out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.

2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world.
BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu,
Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15%
of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference
Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per
household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at
least one good child in each.

3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the
different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he
travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to
822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian
household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to
park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the
stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat
whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get
back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming
that each of the 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed
around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for
the purposes of our calculations we will accept), we are now
talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75 1/2
million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do
at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc.

This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per
second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of
comparison, the fastest man- made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses
space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a
conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.

4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element.
Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized
lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not
counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On
land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds.
Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull
TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or
even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload
- not even counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons.
Again for comparison - this is four times the weight of the
Queen Elizabeth.

5) 353,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates
enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the
same fashion as spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere.
The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of
energy, per second, each. In short they will burst into flame
almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and
create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer
team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second.
Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces
175,000.06 times greater than gravity. A 250 pound Santa (which
seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his
sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

In Conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas
Eve, he's dead now.




Email : murrayb@win.co.nz
Voice : 64-9-6345285
Snail : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand








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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock

From: Kaarl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:19:58 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >half-empty glass. - Dick


Name _one_, Dick.  I double-dog dare ya.


-- Cheers, KARL









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                  Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 07:27:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:22:26 -0500
Subject: Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story - Hatch


 >From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:45:38 -0000
 >Subject: Re: A Christmas Rendlesham Story

 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: A Christmas Rendlesham Story
 >>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:22:18 -0000

 >>The solution: it was Santa Claus!

 >There may just be time for readers to confirm this hypothesis by
 >watching NORAD tracking Santa this Xmas eve.

 >Go to http://www.noradsanta.org/ to see the faboulous effort
 >made by NORAD to keep tabs on the fat fella with the big white
 >beard.

 >Dave Bolton

 >--
 >David Bolton
 >David@DBolton.co.uk


Hello all:


A dumb questions I suppose, but how does Norad distinguish
between Santa/Sleigh etc. and some, er, uncorrelated target?

Best

- Larry Hatch









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                         Re: Ho Ho Ho - Christensen

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:24:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:55:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Ho Ho Ho - Christensen


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Ho Ho Ho
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:22:36 -0600

 >And, of course, there's Santa Claus. As the ancient beast-god of
 >old, he continues to bring bounty and promise to us each year,
 >despite seemingly insurmountable odds. Gods, religions, nations
 >and even hominid species have risen and fallen while he somehow
 >persists. No wonder he winks as he sips his Coca-Cola.

Thanks for forwarding this to the list... it's fascinating to
see the evolution of our cultural icons.

But don't forget who created the "modern" image of Santa -- the
Santa who sips Coca-Cola with such a sly wink. It was American
illustrator Haddon H. "Sunny" Sundblom who, in 1931, created the
first Coke Santa advertising campaign, a job he kept for over
three decades. Inspired by the imagery in Clement Moore's "
'Twas The Night Before Christmas," Sundblom's cheery,
rosy-cheeked Santa is still a Christmas icon. The original ads
were created by Sundblom, working together with adman Archie
Lee, who coined the phrase, "The Pause that Refreshes."


Purrrrrs....
Wendy Christensen
(illustrator, AND student of illustration history)









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                 Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:26:43 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:57:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:01:57 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Merry Universal Christmas!


 >>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 17:30:15 -0600
 >>From: Timothy D. Hagemeister <director@synethics.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Merry Universal Christmas!

 >>Subject: The Universal Impact of the Atonement
 >>Date: 05.11.96
 >>Edited By: Timothy David, Director-Synethics, www.synethics.com

 >>As the Christmas season approaches us and its meaning seems more
 >>diluted each year, perhaps we need to look back to the 19th
 >>Century for wisdom regarding its true meaning for our world.
 >>When we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, let us remember His
 >>reason for coming and that it is His Atonement that changed our
 >>world and others forever!

 >>-----

 >>Excerpts by Albert Barnes*

 >>Defenition: Atonement

 >>"...the substituted suffering for human guilt and the salvation
 >>of the soul is regarded as connected with the death of the
 >>Author of the system considered as a sacrifice or expiation for
 >>crime." -Albert Barnes*

 >>The Atonement (of Jesus Christ) may be an important means of
 >>sustaining the Divine government, and may thus have an important
 >>bearing on other worlds. This is a point, indeed, on which we
 >>cannot argue with much certainty; for it lies at present beyond
 >>the sphere of our observation. But there are some things which
 >>may render it not improbable that there may be bearings of the
 >>atonement on other worlds which are now very imperfectly
 >>understood by us, and which must be in a great measure hidden
 >>until we are admitted to the revelations of the future state.

 >Hello Timothy and fellow Listerions,

 >Today is Christmas eve and I once again wish all Christian members of
 >this list a Merry Christmas. Tim, I don't know your purpose of posting
 >the above but for non- religious folks such as myself it is just a
 >religious tract. I did not quote your entire message because I did not
 >think it was appropriate. There was nothing from your own mind but
 >just a bunch of dogma quoted from the 1800s. It is operating under the
 >assumption that a God exists, that the Bible proves so, and that not
 >only earthlings but also aliens must atone not only to themselves but
 >to some personal "God".

 >For a more intelligent view of the God question mystery I suggest that
 >you read the following book:

 >The Mind of God by Paul Davies, 1992, a Touchstone book by Simon &
 >Schuster.

 >"Stimulating and exciting... Shows how scientists, like the ancient
 >philosophers before them, continue to struggle with rconciling the
 >eternal and the ephemeral."  --The New York Times Book Review.

Dear List, Errol,

See, the whole problem as I see it is that everyone hollers
'faith' like they holler 'New York.' (Meaning to... uh...
vector vomit)

Faith ain't got nothin to do with it. Intellectual understanding
has everything to do with one's belief or unbelief. Dylan wrote,
"When you ain't got no faith, then you got unbelief." Surely it
should read, "when you ain't got no faith, then it's time to
think for yourself."

Belief or unbelief based on one's feelings, the Bible, Reverend
Billy Sol or just one's _feelings_ has no value. This is purely
my opinion.

In religion classes they told us to 'take it on faith.' The
entire ball of wax. Faith. Faith in the mysteries of the church.
Well, after thinking for all of thirty years on the subject of
God, the Universe and Everything, I came to the conclusion that
people who scowl at the behest of their faith [when you say
something against their tenets] or the other side, people who
scowl at the mere mention of a Deity, are all in the same
league. No, not the devil's league, the league of people who
either have no intellect or don't use it.

Belief in a Deity or not, only one's intellect may judge. So
when I read the above, I too, wish to holler New York.

For the record, my personal belief system makes a whole lotta
room for a Deity. And we are all part of It.

Blessings of not faith but intellectual accuity be upon yous.
Look at _any_ fundamentalist practitioner and tell me, please,
if you do not feel compelled to break the commandment which
says, "Thou shalt not kill ..."


Jim












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                             UFOs Are A Humbug!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:56:47 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:43:57 -0500
Subject: UFOs Are A Humbug!


It is written (somewhere) that UFOs are real. Uh huh. And the
check is in the mail. Right. It is also written many other
places that UFO people, that's right - _people!_ have on
occasion, abducted people from earth.  Right.

Everyone knows that the people who believe in UFO's or
abductions by people from same, are nuts. Everyone that
is, except the people on this list. You guys are indulging
in some ridiculous notion that the above might actually
be a possibility.

Well, I am here to tell you that there are no UFOs. There are
only anomalous cloud formations, various planets misinterpreted
as flying object, methane, ball lightning, aircraft and the
vivid imagination of those who claim to see them as flying
saucers.

When was the last time someone came to you, to anyone, with a
bolt from one of those phantom thingies? Huh? And when was the
last time these willo-the-wisps landed on the lawn of the White
House and aksed to see our "Leader?" Huh?

I am sorry to tell you this, but I am not a believer in UFO's or
abductions. In fact, I will go so far as to say that anyone who
does needs a doctor.

And whilst we are at it, how about them marks? Match burns,
self-inflicted melon ball scooping out of flesh, self
mutilation. You loonies don't need representation in the
Government, you do not require and advocacy, you merely require
medical help. A tranquilizer maybe, or mood altering drugs. Or
maybe it was the drugs or the alcohol what made you hallucinate
this stuff.

Shermer is right. Oberg is right. Klass is right. And Hynek is
a horse's patootie. One man's opinion.

Thank you Errol, for the time. And say, Oberg, Klass and Shermer
... how'd I do?


John Smith









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:46:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies


 >From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

I guess "discredited" is subjective. Kaufmann still enjoys some
credit has being the 'real deal', although anyone whose read
Karl's book might find himself groaning.

Glenn Dennis (who only claimed to have been a second-hand
witness) was caught in the web of his own story, yet many people
still accept his testimony. (If there is any reason to accept it
as factual, by all means post it.)

Dan Dwyer supposedly saw bodies, as well as one live alien.
Unfortunately, this story comes to us from Frankie Rowe, who I
think is full of it.

That leaves the guy on one of the Wright-Patterson flights, who
described the skin as orange and lizard-like. And Mac Brazel,
if he indeed made the comment about "little green men" not being
green...

There's a residue of intriguing speculation and comments on the
'bodies', but not one source I'd bet my life on. Personally, I
find Sarbacher's 'scuttlebut' about insect-like aliens more
compelling than the so-called first-hand witnesses' testimony.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                 Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:58:47 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:47:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian


 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:07:35 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 12-24-01 - Martian Hexagons?

<snip>

 >>Please see: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >Those are very impressive, especially the one at the upper
 >portion of the picture. It shows a hexagon shape to the interior
 >as well as to its exterior. I see no way that that could be any
 >natural feature.

At the moment, neither do I. There's a clear hexagonal "wall"
around an unusually dark hexagonal pit.

What do you suppose is down there...?


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com










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                           Merry Christmas To All

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:03:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:49:10 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas To All


We seem to be living in troubled times, and often we may
disagree. But, let me join the chorus of others in wishing
everyone a Joyous, Peaceful and Safe Holiday season.


Steve









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              Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:19:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:19:20 -0500
Subject: Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991713


Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem Star

Marcus Chown

A US astronomer claims he has found the first mention of the star of
Bethlehem outside the Bible. The reference is in a 4th-century
manuscript written by a Roman astrologer and Christian convert called
Firmicus Maternus.

Michael Molnar, formerly of Rutgers University in New Jersey, is the
originator of the idea that the star of Bethlehem was not a
spectacular astronomical event such as a supernova or a comet but an
obscure astrological one.

The event would nevertheless have been of great significance to
ancient Roman astrologers. After studying the symbolism on Roman
coins, he concluded that the "star" was in fact a double eclipse of
Jupiter in a rare astrological conjunction that occurred in Aries on
20 March, 6 BC, and again on 17 April, 6 BC (New Scientist magazine,
23 December 1995).

Molnar believed that Roman astrologers would have interpreted such an
event as signifying the birth of a divine king in Judea. But he lacked
proof. Now he says he has found it, in the Mathesis, a book written by
Maternus in AD 334. Maternus described an astrological event involving
an eclipse of Jupiter by the Moon in Aries, and said that it signified
the birth of a divine king.


No names

"Maternus did not mention Jesus's name," says Molnar. "But Roman
astrology was a popular craze at the time and everyone reading the
book would have known the reference was to Jesus and that the
astrological event was the star of Bethlehem."

So why did Maternus not mention Jesus by name? According to Molnar,
early Christians hated pagan beliefs and did not want to justify the
Biblical story with astrological mumbo-jumbo. The idea that the stars
govern our fate flew in the face of belief in a Christian God as the
controlling force in the Universe.

"Being a pagan who had converted to Christianity during his lifetime,
Firmicus was torn," says Molnar. "Hence his use of astrology to
support the Christian story, but in a veiled way."

According to Molnar, it was essential to early Christians that the
true nature of the star be hidden, otherwise theologians would be
mired in debate about celestial influences that were not part of
Christianity. So they buried the knowledge of the star's astrological
roots and in time it was forgotten.

"I take Molnar's work quite seriously," says Owen Gingerich, a
historian of astronomy at Harvard University. "Anything he comes up
with along these lines has to be considered as being very likely
correct."

---

UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist for the lead

http://www.anomalist.com/







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                    Re: Merry Christmas To All - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:01:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:15:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas To All - Lehmberg


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Merry Christmas To All
 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:03:27 -0500

 >We seem to be living in troubled times, and often we may
 >disagree. But, let me join the chorus of others in wishing
 >everyone a Joyous, Peaceful and Safe Holiday season.

 >Steve


It's true we live in troubled times and often disagree, and
Joyous, Peaceful, Safety is preferred - the way to be... but I'd
provide for tolerance and tyranny's demise and campaign for
courageousness we'd use to lift our eyes...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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                               Christmas 2001

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:25:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:25:25 -0500
Subject: Christmas 2001


Those involved in producing the List, the Program, Relationships,
Life, The Universe & Everything, hope that all you wish for
yourselves, over this Season and the coming New Year, comes to
pass, peacefully.....

Errol


http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/index.html









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:42:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:41:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Boreham


 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >I guess "discredited" is subjective. Kaufmann still enjoys some
 >credit has being the 'real deal', although anyone whose read
 >Karl's book might find himself groaning.

 >Glenn Dennis (who only claimed to have been a second-hand
 >witness) was caught in the web of his own story, yet many people
 >still accept his testimony. (If there is any reason to accept it
 >as factual, by all means post it.)

 >Dan Dwyer supposedly saw bodies, as well as one live alien.
 >Unfortunately, this story comes to us from Frankie Rowe, who I
 >think is full of it.

 >That leaves the guy on one of the Wright-Patterson flights, who
 >described the skin as orange and lizard-like. And Mac Brazel,
 >if he indeed made the comment about "little green men" not being
 >green...

 >There's a residue of intriguing speculation and comments on the
 >'bodies', but not one source I'd bet my life on. Personally, I
 >find Sarbacher's 'scuttlebut' about insect-like aliens more
 >compelling than the so-called first-hand witnesses' testimony.


Considering that a craft made of indestructible material was
(apparently) destroyed, I'm surprised there were any remains
of the occupants, dead or alive.

I mean it must have been one hell of a crash to destroy the
indestructible. Where there seismic-detectors about
back then? Just a thought (nearly anyhoo)!

Rob








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                      Re: UFOs Are A Humbug! - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:4:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:43:45 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Are A Humbug! - Aldrich


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:56:47 EST
 >Subject: UFOs Are A Humbug!
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >It is written (somewhere) that UFOs are real. Uh huh. And the
 >check is in the mail. Right. It is also written many other
 >places that UFO people, that's right - _people!_ have on
 >occasion, abducted people from earth. Right.


 >Everyone knows that the people who believe in UFO's or
 >abductions by people from same, are nuts. Everyone that
 >is, except the people on this list. You guys are indulging
 >in some ridiculous notion that the above might actually
 >be a possibility.


 >Well, I am here to tell you that there are no UFOs. There are
 >only anomalous cloud formations, various planets misinterpreted
 >as flying object, methane, ball lightning, aircraft and the
 >vivid imagination of those who claim to see them as flying
 >saucers.

 >When was the last time someone came to you, to anyone, with a
 >bolt from one of those phantom thingies? Huh? And when was the
 >last time these willo-the-wisps landed on the lawn of the White
 >House and aksed to see our "Leader?" Huh?

 >I am sorry to tell you this, but I am not a believer in UFO's or
 >abductions. In fact, I will go so far as to say that anyone who
 >does needs a doctor.


 >And whilst we are at it, how about them marks? Match burns,
 >self-inflicted melon ball scooping out of flesh, self
 >mutilation. You loonies don't need representation in the
 >Government, you do not require and advocacy, you merely require
 >medical help. A tranquilizer maybe, or mood altering drugs. Or
 >maybe it was the drugs or the alcohol what made you hallucinate
 >this stuff.

 >Shermer is right. Oberg is right. Klass is right. And Hynek is
 >a horse's patootie. One man's opinion.

 >Thank you Errol, for the time. And say, Oberg, Klass and Shermer

 >... how'd I do?

 >John Smith

Happy Humbug to you, also, but hey, how do you know what I
believe?

I don't believe in anything!

'Ceptin, maybe, I believe, I'll have another one. After that,
it all gets cloudy.

Anyway, statistics prove that there are no UFOs....belief, hell!
That's a certified fact!

Most UFO arguments start off with UFO statistics. Statistics
are powerful, true, and convincing. So there!


Jan Aldrich

BTW My washing is 23.7% cleaner since I switched to Tide!










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             Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:49:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:45:25 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation? - Goldstein



 >From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Investigation Or Exploitation?
 >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:04:22 -0800

 >I'd appreciate input from members of this List on an issue
 >that I think I've made up my mind how to handle, but
 >nevertheless, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who'd
 >like to comment.

 >A free-lance (published) writer was referred to me as State
 >Director for MUFON in Iowa. He's interested in writing a book
 >about what he considers to be the UFO sub-culture, going so far,
 >for example, as to state that he would probably include at least
 >a short segment on what he labels as UFO cults, and he seems
 >very interested also in the encounter/abduction phenomenon.

 >During some exploratory conversation he's indicated that in
 >order to emphasize the _human_ angle, he wants to become
 >a field investigator.

 >For me, red flags go up!

 >It seems to me that becoming an investigator in order to write a
 >book indicates an individual starting with a somewhat
 >self-serving purpose in mind, although in all fairness I need to
 >say that he may see this as just simply the right way to go
 >about writing on a subject - in a somewhat investigative
 >reporter mode.

 >He says he wants to write for the literary-non-fiction-reader,
 >and leave it up to the reader to decide what he/she thinks of
 >UFOs. (As an aside, my guess is the book would still end up on
 >UFO shelves mixed in with the New Age stuff!)

 >Many witness in Iowa are highly educated, and hold academic as
 >well as other professional and business related positions which
 >place them in high profile in their communities. But whether
 >high-profile or not, most witnesses would be devastated if they
 >were somehow identified with their sightings and/or encounter
 >experiences. In my estimation, not only would careers/livelihood
 >be placed in jeopardy, but also some relationships might not
 >stand the stress of public attention.

 >It's obvious to me that this gentleman does not fully understand
 >the vast difference between writing about a __mundane__ subject
 >such as, for example, the sub-culture of Ballet, or the
 >sub-culture of a game like Bridge, as opposed to a subject so
 >potentially life altering - and with an entirely different set
 >of potential repercussions - as the UFO enigma. The very real
 >specter of public ridicule, as well as career and relationship
 >jeopardy does not - as far as I can tell - exist in the Ballet
 >or Bridge world. It does, however, exist (bigtime) in the arena
 >of UFOs. In an investigative situation, I am not interested in
 >subjecting witnesses to an investigator who is, first of all, a
 >free-lance writer.

 >Now, this gentleman may go on to write his book, and that's his
 >prerogative. But my thinking so far is that within MUFON in
 >Iowa, I'm not in favor of facilitating his entry into the
 >investigative process.

 >If I'm missing something here, please feel free to call it to my
 >attention.


Hello Bev,

Oops. I responded to this post of yours right after I read it
with bleary eyes at 3am. I was so tired I missed your point. Of
course this person was not in line to succeed you as Iowa state
director.

To me, a field investigator is someone who feels a need to
objectively investigate UFO or abduction related reports from
people within the investigator's region. In the field
investigator manual are standards to adhere to. If this budding
author has no genuine desire to do such and only wants to
esploit his position, then he is not the kind of person to
become an investigator. Those red flags started waving for good
reasons.


Josh











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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:55:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:47:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser

 >From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that
 >only >discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is
 >absolutely false. >I don't think of you as an AF apologist,
 >but I increasingly see >you as someone whose mind is made up
 >and seeing only the >half-empty glass. - Dick

 >Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.


Karl-

I believe that Walter Haut has recently made statements
regarding bodies that he had seen at Roswell, which is one
witness that hasn't been discredited (yet). Critics will say
that Haut is getting on in years and confuses his memories with
stories that he has heard, or that he is being led to that
conclusion by those who are interviewing him. Since it all boils
down to anecdotal testimony, how is one to judge except by using
your own personal beliefs as a filter. Indeed, some will see the
glass as half full, while others will see it as half empty.

A recent French documentary has also provided some interesting
new testimony, which in the long run is anecdotal, and hopefully
the producers will be able to arrange for its broadcast in the
U.S. (and elsewhere). One bit of information comes from a long
time colleague of J. Allen Hynek, and it would seem that Hynek
believed the Air Force had alien bodies from a crashed craft.
Obviously he didn't have the "smoking gun" to prove it, or we'd
have heard about it already. But, now we're faced with third
party information [from a source that we have no reason to
doubt] and the person who could clarify the situation is no
longer with us. If I recall correctly, these "bodies" didn't
necessarily relate to the 1947 Roswell incident, so this may not
pertain if you're only interested in "bodies" related to that
infamous case.

The article in Fate magazine is yet another interesting theory.
But like the Mogul theory, it certainly doesn't prove the case
beyond a reasonable doubt.

But that's just the opinion of a lurker in this field.


Steve

PS - Hope your holiday is Joyous and safe.










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                 Re: Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:11:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:49:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The


 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:19:20 -0500
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem Star

 >Source: The New Scientist

 >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991713

 >Early Christians Hid The Origins Of The Bethlehem Star

 >Marcus Chown

 >A US astronomer claims he has found the first mention of the star of
 >Bethlehem outside the Bible. The reference is in a 4th-century
 >manuscript written by a Roman astrologer and Christian convert called
 >Firmicus Maternus.

 >Michael Molnar, formerly of Rutgers University in New Jersey, is the
 >originator of the idea that the star of Bethlehem was not a
 >spectacular astronomical event such as a supernova or a comet but an
 >obscure astrological one.

 >The event would nevertheless have been of great significance to
 >ancient Roman astrologers. After studying the symbolism on Roman
 >coins, he concluded that the "star" was in fact a double eclipse of
 >Jupiter in a rare astrological conjunction that occurred in Aries on
 >20 March, 6 BC, and again on 17 April, 6 BC (New Scientist magazine,
 >23 December 1995).

This is but the latest astronomical attempt to explain how some
bright object in the sky could first inform the Magi where to
go, and then, from Jerusalem, lead them to Bethlehem and then
hover over ("came to rest over") the place where the child was.
Neat trick for old, familiar Jupiter.

In his book, I'm sure that Molnar doesn't imply that Jupiter
gets eclipsed by a star or two.

And actually, there was an early 2nd century mention of the
"star" of Bethlehem by Bishop Ignatius. His description is much
more complete than what's in the Gospel of Matthew. From what
I've learned, Ignatius' description came from oral tradition
rather than from Matthew, with Matthew having been written later
in the early 2nd century and being dependent upon some lines
from Ignatius's epistles. If so, Ignatius's testimony is
independent of the Bible.

Jim Deardorff









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                      Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:27:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:51:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich


While Clarke is talking about seeing trees and vegetation on
Mars, Shermer is composing laws.

How about this law? "The Law of Unintended Consequences." This
trumps any other so-called futurist's musings.

I remember in the 1950s predictions that nuclear power plants
would produce electricity so cheaply that it would make no sense
to meter it.

Or in the 1960's, a picture of the home of the future with a
computer in the kitchen preparing the evening's grub. Remember
the huge old tape drives on Univacs. There was one right next to
the refrig.

The next decade will see more progress than the last 10,000
years.

Get a grip!

How about some more useful predictions? In ten years:

Most work will still be done by muscle power.

There will still be wars - including one of the longest ones in
Clarke's little paradise - and famines.

Computers will still suffer from garbage in, garbage out.

NASA might be able to convert the English system to the meteric
system and vice versa - although I am going out on a limb here!

And I will not be drinking a scotch and soda under a shade tree
on Mars, talking to a computer which.... er, I mean who, has an
avatar that looks like Lexa Doig.

As long as the old reptile brain is around, I would not expect
the next decade to be that much more incremental than the last
one.



Jan Aldrich

On yeah, while were at it, in the 1950's, the planet was
supposedly cooling down and the next Ice Age could be expected
sooooon!









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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:53:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Hall


 >From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >Name _one_, Dick.  I double-dog dare ya.

 >-- Cheers, KARL

Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
discredit him too).

Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash test
dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more time on
you.


- Dick









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                   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:13:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:03:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000

 >>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >>>>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >>>>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>-- Cheers, KARL

 >Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
 >family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
 >discredit him too).

 >Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
 >cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash test
 >dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more time on
 >you.

I remember that program, I think. Mr. Pflock made that eager
embrace out of an apparent personal satisfaction, just like he
had chased a threatening dragon back into its den. He was so
emotionally unbalanced regarding his testimony on that program
that flags already up with me were hoisted even higher.

That was a sorry day all around as I recall. The Air Force as
much as admitted that something weird went down at Roswell with
the incompetence of their denying report, while the bunkies
rallied beneath the inauspiciousness of the suspect report's
banner. Zot, but ET must think we're blithering idiots in the
aggregate...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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   Dec > Dec 26

                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 12:03:35 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:05:27 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000

<snip>

 >>>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>-- Cheers, KARL

 >Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
 >family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
 >discredit him too).

Huh? "Pappy" Henderson neve said he saw bodies, only that that's
what he thought he was transporting. Wilcox? This is new to me,
as is Haut. What is he saying now, and why on Earth hasn't he
said it before??

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                  Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:25:25 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:52:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:13:13 -0600

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000

 >>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >>>>>Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0600
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Fate Magazine - 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>Obviously you don't get it. Why do you keep suggesting that only
 >>>>discredited witnesses reported bodies? That is absolutely false.
 >>>>I don't think of you as an AF apologist, but I increasingly see
 >>>>you as someone whose mind is made up and seeing only the
 >>>>half-empty glass. - Dick

 >>>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>>-- Cheers, KARL

 >>Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
 >>family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
 >>discredit him too).

 >>Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
 >>cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash test
 >>dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more time on
 >>you.

 >I remember that program, I think. Mr. Pflock made that eager
 >embrace out of an apparent personal satisfaction, just like he
 >had chased a threatening dragon back into its den. He was so
 >emotionally unbalanced regarding his testimony on that program
 >that flags already up with me were hoisted even higher.

 >That was a sorry day all around as I recall. The Air Force as
 >much as admitted that something weird went down at Roswell with
 >the incompetence of their denying report, while the bunkies
 >rallied beneath the inauspiciousness of the suspect report's
 >banner. Zot, but ET must think we're blithering idiots in the
 >aggregate...

Dear Alfred, Mr. Pflack, Listereones and Errol,

Great Suffering Zot! Who said that?

In my new position as an unbeliever in God, The Universe,
Everything and UFOs... I wish to say infattingolly that Mr.
Pfrakle is dead nuts on the money. Who but such as Klass, Frack,
Shermer and Herr OldBerger could say a truth as absolute as such
as had been told by Mr. Brack? Huh?

Lehmberg, you don't know what the heck you are talking about
when you malign the man, this man, this Karl Frick, and say such
unabashedly boldfaced lies. Mr. Brick was saying only truth. And
in saying truth, his blessings were cast upon us. The truth
shall set it's fee and Fricketty Frank Frack and his
millions... minions... sorry, is more fee fi fo dum than any of
you stupid believers. Fum, sorry.

In my monograph, posted on the Gripple Institoot sight, I
praise this man, yes, even in the face of projectile hollering
New York, which at times appears to issue forth in the guise
of sincerity. Yes, Mr. Drech, I appreciate your truth. I admire
your projectile hollering New York and most of all, I wish to
tell you that the money you paid me to say that is quite
insufferably insufficient. In the face of this paltry bribe, your
truth stands so tall, that I must support you at all costs.

So, thanks for the offering. And thanks for your truth. As for
you, Lehmberg, go fish!


Dr. G.








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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:11:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:53:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Rimmer


 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >That leaves the guy on one of the Wright-Patterson flights, who
 >described the skin as orange and lizard-like. And Mac Brazel,
 >if he indeed made the comment about "little green men" not being
 >green...

I asked this a while ago, but don't recall receiving a
definitive answer. When was the phrase "little green men" first
applied to possible UFO occupants?. Brazel's alleged comment
implies it was in fairly general use at the time of Roswell,
which I feel unlikely. Does anyone know the history of this
phrase in an SF and/or ufological context?



John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:19:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:43:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:11:44 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


John,

 >I asked this a while ago, but don't recall receiving a
 >definitive answer. When was the phrase "little green men" first
 >applied to possible UFO occupants?. Brazel's alleged comment
 >implies it was in fairly general use at the time of Roswell,
 >which I feel unlikely. Does anyone know the history of this
 >phrase in an SF and/or ufological context?

Ah, the eternal question.

While doing the research for my UFO Encyclopedia series, I came
upon an item in a fine but forgotten UFO publication, Data-Net,
published out of California in the 1960s by a woman named
Josephine Clark (no relation to the undersigned). A reader had
investigated this very question and concluded that "little green
man" as a concept and phrase had come into usage through a comic
strip popular in the early 20th Century.

I intended to mention this conclusion in the encyclopedia, but
by the time I came to a place in the text where I could have
dropped this (alleged) factoid, I'd misplaced my copy of the
brief article, which still languishes in the parallel universe
into which it appears to have fallen. If anybody reading these
words has a copy of the Data-Net piece handy, please let us all
know.

As you are aware, John, some fairy entities traditionally were
described as having green skin. So the idea of green-skinned
humanoids is hardly new. Of course the question is when this
general notion was compressed into the three magic words "little
green men."


Jerry Clark









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:59:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:07:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gehrman


 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >There's a residue of intriguing speculation and comments on the
 >'bodies', but not one source I'd bet my life on. Personally, I
 >find Sarbacher's 'scuttlebut' about insect-like aliens more
 >compelling than the so-called first-hand witnesses' testimony.

Mac, EBK, and listers,

Season's greetings.

I might remind you that we do have another possible witness: the
MP.

This person contacted me about two years ago and described in
detail what he witnessed on the early morning hours of July 4th,
1947. He saw alien bodies with six fingers who looked like the
creatures in the AA footage.

I know this person's name, rank where he lives, but I'm not free
to divulge this information. I believe he's telling the truth,
but I have no proof. He was a member of this List; he still may
be. I sure wish he'd contact me again. Our correspondence
stopped abruptly over a year and a half ago; I've tried to reach
him many times, but have been unsuccessful so far.


Ed










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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:15:24 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:12:54 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Pflock


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000

 >>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000


Dick et al,

 >>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>-- Cheers, KARL

 >Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
 >family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
 >discredit him too).

 >Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
 >cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash test
 >dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more time on
 >you.

Glad to see you've not mellowed a bit, Dick. We need _some_
constants in this field.

Anyhoo, I'm still waiting for you to name a "bodies witness" who
hasn't been discredited. Anyone who thinks the testimony in re
Henderson and the Wilcox family - ll of it second and third hand
at best - is credible is incredibly credulous (which you didn't
used to be, Dick).

As for Walt Haut's recent claims about bodies, don't you find it
the least bit curious that for decades he emphatically claimed
not to have seen _anything_ from the alleged crashed flying
saucer, not a bit of debris, not a body - nothing? Now, getting
up in years, widowed, and in poor heath, the International UFO
'Museum' and 'Research Center' his main activity, he suddenly
recalls seeing bodies.

This is very much like Betty Hill's UFO landing field, photos,
and movies: a credible witness undermining his/her credibility
with screwball claims. Oh, yes, lest anyone wonder: I'm
convinced Betty and Barney Hill were captured by beings from
another planet. I'm also quite certain Walt Haut wrote the
Roswell press announcement as directed by Col. Blanchard. I'm
just as certain that Betty didn't have the continuing UFO
sightings, etc., she has claimed, and that Walt didn't see any
bodies.

Giving credence to such stuff only further undermines the
credibility of a field already staggering under a burden of
ridicule and doubt, a burden in no small degree self-induced.

Keep up the good work, Dick.


-- KARL









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   Dec > Dec 26

                              Odd Native Story

From: Paul White Wolf <Pwitewolf@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:18:50 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:19:05 -0500
Subject: Odd Native Story


Hi Errol,

I found the following information in a book that was published
before the turn of the 19th century and thought it might be of
interest to some of your readers.

In peace and friendship,

Paul

------------

The book is:

History Of The Ottawa And Chippewa Indians Of Michigan
A Grammar Of Their Language,
And Personal And Family History Of The Author,

By Andrew J. Blackbird,

Late U.S. Interpreter, Harbor Springs, Emmet Co., Mich.
Ypsilanti, Mich.:
The Ypsilantian Job Printing House.
1887.

Library of Congress
Feb 11, 1888
28149 S
City Of Washington

Quote: (from Page 95)

"There are many theories as to the origin of the Indian race in
America, but nothing but speculation can be given on this
subject. But we believe there must have been people living in
this country before those tribes who were driven out by the
Ottawas and Chippewas, who were much more advanced in art and in
civilization, for many evidences of their work have been
discovered. About two hundred and fifty years ago,
We-me-gen-de-bay, one of our noted chiefs, discovered while
hunting in the wilderness a great copper kettle, which was
partly in the ground. The roots of trees had grown around it and
over it, and when it was taken up it appeared as if it had never
been used, but seemed to be just as it came from the maker, as
there was yet a round bright spot in the center of the bottom of
it. This kettle was large

Page 96

enough to cook a whole deer or bear in it. For a long time the
Indians kept it as a sacred relic. They did not keep it near
their premises, but securely hidden in a place most unfrequented
by any human being. They did not use it for anything except for
great feast. Their idea with regard to this kettle was that it
was made by some deity who presided over the country where it
was found, and that the copper mine must be very close by where
the kettle was discovered. One peculiarity of its manufacture
was that it had no iron rim around it, nor bail for hanging
while in use, as kettles are usually made, but the edge of the
upper part was much thicker than the rest and was turned out
square about three-fourths of an inch, as if made to rest on
some support while in use. When the Indians came to be civilized
in Grand Traverse country, they began to use this
"Mani-tou-au-kick," as they called it, in common to boil the
sugar sap in it, instead of cooking bear for the feast. And
while I was yet in the government blacksmith shop at the Old
Mission in Grand Traverse, they brought this magical kettle to
our shop with an order to put an iron rim and bail on it so that
could be hanged in boiling sugar, and I did te work of fixing
the kettle according to the order.

 From this evidence of working in metals and from the many other
relics of former occupants, it is evident that this country has
been inhabited for many ages, but whether by descendants of the
Jews or of the other Eastern races there is no way for us to
determine."

end quote.










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                      Re: Shermer's Last Law - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:19:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:23:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Maccabee


 >From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 10:23:28 -0800

 >>This observation stimulated me to think about the impact the
 >>discovery of an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) would have
 >>on science and religion.

 >So, what is Shermer trying to say here about about the impact of
 >technology on ETI? I won't put words in his mouth, but it seems
 >to me that we migh eventually get so technologically advanced as
 >to appear to be "aliens unto ourselves"?

For possible impact of our own technology on ourselves, read
Question Everything.... a chapter in Abduction In My Life..

Coming:  medical police
6 million dollar people
how much is a human life worth?
Reversing Babel
Darwinion Anti-evolution (devolution)
No one dies
Illegal to become sick
End of Death means End of Birth......
Humans stripped down to the
essence...brain in a bottle with
computer support.
Boredom leads to the urge to due
.....................

all of these (and other) nice things await us whether or not
aliens intervene

Ho Ho Ho.









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                  Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:19:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:25:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Merry Universal Christmas! - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:26:43 EST
 >Subject: Re: Merry Universal Christmas!
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>"Stimulating and exciting... Shows how scientists, like the ancient
 >>philosophers before them, continue to struggle with rconciling the
 >>eternal and the ephemeral."  --The New York Times Book Review.

 >Dear List, Errol,

 >See, the whole problem as I see it is that everyone hollers
'>faith' like they holler 'New York.' (Meaning to... uh...
 >vector vomit)

 >Faith ain't got nothin to do with it. Intellectual understanding
 >has everything to do with one's belief or unbelief. Dylan wrote,
 >"When you ain't got no faith, then you got unbelief." Surely it
 >should read, "when you ain't got no faith, then it's time to
 >think for yourself."

 >Belief in a Deity or not, only one's intellect may judge. So
 >when I read the above, I too, wish to holler New York.

For a novel point of view, read my, uh, novel. (Abduction In My
Life).

I wonder why religionists don't grab onto the UFO phenomenon as
eviden ce that there are Other Intelligences in the universe and
hence there may be a Creator.....









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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #002

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:27:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:27:15 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #002


Alfred's Odd Observation #002 (Saturday December 26, 2001.)

A few mornings of miserable weather, one futile dry-run during
excellent viewing conditions, and at least one iteration of
liberal holiday libation... (I guess that could be placed under
the category of temporary illness <g>) induced a complete lack
of sighting opportunities. This explains the paucity of reports
over the last couple of days. This morning proved to be an
auspicious break to the short ufological famine. I would have
two anomalous sightings between 03:45 and 05:15.

At 04:35 a dim greenish light appeared beneath the paws of Leo
at about fifty five degrees elevation and traveled about 60
degrees of distance to the north. It maintained a steady track,
but seemed to vary it's apparent ground speed. One 5 degree
segment took 20 seconds to complete and another took 25 seconds
in about 6 minutes of observation.

Steady field glasses could resolve no further detail but the
point source of light. A typical "moving star". No sign of
aircraft position lights could be seen. The "light" was dimmer
than Polaris and maintained that degree of luminosity from blink
on to blink off.

At 4:50 and due east a bright white strobe flashed that was
brighter in magnitude than the star Sirius which chased Orion to
the horizon behind me to the west. I noted the azimuth and
started counting seconds. Experience with these "flashers"
demonstrates that continued observation of the area is usually
rewarded with another flash some 20 to 40 seconds later. The
second flash occurred 23 seconds later two degrees to the left
of the first flash and moving north. Twenty-three seconds later
another flash was observed to travel an additional two degrees
further north. This pattern cycled six times before the apparent
movement took the object out of view behind a tree.

The long frequency between strobes and absence of position
lights precludes aircraft. There was no sound from either
sighting.

Prosaic explanations are, of course, not forthcoming, or you
wouldn't be reading a report. I'm only interested in reporting
the anomalous articles I observe. Read Shermer, Posner, Oberg,
Korff, or Klass for prosaic explanations, as I'm not going to
waste the reader's time with head-in-the-sand skeptibunky
platitudes or other transparent enigma denial. I'll only report
the strange.

Until next time then...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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              'Little Green Men' [was: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell']

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:38:09 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:57:30 -0500
Subject: 'Little Green Men' [was: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell']


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:19:34 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:11:44 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >John,

 >>I asked this a while ago, but don't recall receiving a
 >>definitive answer. When was the phrase "little green men" first
 >>applied to possible UFO occupants?. Brazel's alleged comment
 >>implies it was in fairly general use at the time of Roswell,
 >>which I feel unlikely. Does anyone know the history of this
 >>phrase in an SF and/or ufological context?

 >Ah, the eternal question.

 >While doing the research for my UFO Encyclopedia series, I came
 >upon an item in a fine but forgotten UFO publication, Data-Net,
 >published out of California in the 1960s by a woman named
 >Josephine Clark (no relation to the undersigned). A reader had
 >investigated this very question and concluded that "little green
 >man" as a concept and phrase had come into usage through a comic
 >strip popular in the early 20th Century.

 >I intended to mention this conclusion in the encyclopedia, but
 >by the time I came to a place in the text where I could have
 >dropped this (alleged) factoid, I'd misplaced my copy of the
 >brief article, which still languishes in the parallel universe
 >into which it appears to have fallen. If anybody reading these
 >words has a copy of the Data-Net piece handy, please let us all
 >know.

While I don't know the origins of the popular term "little green
men", here are some items (mostly from the Net) showing that the
idea of green space aliens was certainly in the popular culture
well before and circa 1947:

http://humbabe.arc.nasa.gov/mgcm/fun/pop.html

"Note on the origin of "little green men": This phrase is
frequently used in modern English to refer to Martians or
aliens. But where does it come from? In Edgar Rice Burroughs
first book about Mars, A Princess on Mars, he describes the
"green men of Mars" who reappear frequently in his other Martian
novels. This is probably related to the origin of "little green
men" although he never uses that exact phrase. The Oxford
English Dictionary's first reference for "little green man" is
actually from Kipling's 'Puck of Pook's Hill' (dated 1906). Its
use here refers to an actual person who has been tattooed green,
and so although it actually uses the phrase "little green man",
it appears to be more descriptive than a reference to aliens.
The next OED reference to "little green men" is not until 1961."


The "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" comic character started in
1928 and was very influential. A comic book cover, probably from
the 1930s, shows Buck Rogers battling some green space men on
Jupiter:

http://www.redboots.net/comics/other_heroes.htm


Flash Gordon appeared in 1934 in response to Buck Rogers. A Web
page showing a 1935 Sunday comic strip of Flash Gordon battling
green and red (but not little) "lizard men" from Mars:

http://www.comic-art.com/media/jpegs/raymn01z.jpg


Marvin the Martian was a Warner Brother's cartoon character
dating from 1948, playing opposite Bugs Bunny and later Daffy
Duck ("Duck Dodgers in the 24 and a 1/2th Century", a parody of
the earlier Buck Rogers in the 25th Century comics featuring the
Tiger Men of Mars). Marvin was a small humanoid character
dressed in a mostly green uniform. Many millions of movie-goers
of that period would have been familiar with the small,
green-suited cartoon Martian.

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/3063/Marvmart.htm

"Marvin the Martian was created in 1948 (Marvin is 50 years old
now) by Chuck Jones and has the voice of Mel Blanc. His voice,
since Mel Blanc passed away, has been done by Bob Bergen.
Marvin's home planet is Mars. Marvin has a spaceship called
Marvin Maggot and a dog named Commander K-9. Marvin's single
goal in life is to blow up Earth with his lludium Q-36 Explosive
Space Modulator because it blocks his view of Venus.

"Marvin the Martian has appeared in very few Looney Tunes
cartoons over the years. These are some of the cartoons that
have featured Marvin the Martian.

"1948--"Haredevil Hare" with Bugs Bunny
1952--"The Hasty Hare" with Bugs Bunny
1953--"Duck Dodgers in the 24 and a 1/2th Century" with Daffy Duck
1958--"Hare-Way to the stars" with Bugs Bunny
1963--"Mad as Mars Hare" with Bugs Bunny
<=85.>"


Some pictures of Marvin the Martian in his mostly green uniform:

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/3063/pix.htm
http://www.cartoon-factory.com/disney/view.cgi?ID=3D375248
http://www.cartoon-factory.com/disney/view.cgi?ID=3D270257


Pulp comic books of the 1940s and early 1950s also had green
space monsters and green space men, including some "little green
men:"

The original Planet Comics (started in 1940) with some covers of
green monsters and green space men:

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/fictionhouse.htm


Ziff-Davis comic book covers from the 1940's of heroes battling
green space critters and men from Mars and Pluto:

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/ziffdavis.htm


Fox comics and "Rex Dexter" battling some sort of green alien
critters from the cover of "Mystery Men Comics" sometime in the
1940's I believe:

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/fox.htm


Avon comics from what appears to be the late 1940's, early
1950's, featuring alien "little green men" (In particular,
check out series for "Flying Saucer" and "Space Detective")

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/avon.htm


Some more comic book covers from the early 1950's of green
monsters and a "little green man:"

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/comics01.htm


In the wake of the great U.S. UFO wave of 1952, an example of
the mainstream press debunking of the apparently popular
conception of flying saucers representing "pixie-like" men from
Mars:

U. S. News and World Report, Aug. 8, 1952

What's Going On In The Skies

"=85Men from Mars or other planets definitely are not cruising
around above the U.S. No little pixies, flitting around in
"flying saucers," are surveying beachheads to land explorers
from another world."


An expert on the pulp comics from the 1930s and 1940s might know
more about the origin of the term "little green men."


David Rudiak







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                      Re: Shermer's Last Law - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:32:10 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:59:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Tonnies


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:19:12 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Coming: medical police
 >6 million dollar people
 >how much is a human life worth?
 >Reversing Babel
 >Darwinion Anti-evolution (devolution)
 >No one dies
 >Illegal to become sick
 >End of Death means End of Birth......
 >Humans stripped down to the
 >essence...brain in a bottle with
 >computer support.
 >Boredom leads to the urge to due
 >.....................

 >all of these (and other) nice things await us whether or not
 >aliens intervene

We have lots of options. My concerns are that we don't ruin
things first, either through warfare or environmental abuse.
Readers interested in the ideas sketched out by Bruce (above)
might like to take a look at some of the links on my
"Transhumanism" page:

http://mactonnies.com/trans.html

Here is my personal take on artificial intelligence and directed
evolution:

http://mactonnies.com/sentience.html

--Mac Tonnies









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:39:12 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:01:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:15:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >As for Walt Haut's recent claims about bodies, don't you find it
 >the least bit curious that for decades he emphatically claimed
 >not to have seen _anything_ from the alleged crashed flying
 >saucer, not a bit of debris, not a body - nothing? Now, getting
 >up in years, widowed, and in poor heath, the International UFO
 >'Museum' and 'Research Center' his main activity, he suddenly
 >recalls seeing bodies.

What has Haut said, exactly? This "bombshell revelation" must
have passed me by.

It's saddening if Haut is indeed telling tales of alien bodies,
as he has always struck me as one of the more level and
genuinely curious of the various Roswell participants.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                        Re: Odd Native Story - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:59:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:03:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Odd Native Story - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:18:50 EST
 >From: Paul White Wolf <Pwitewolf@aol.com>
 >Subject: Odd Native Story
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >History Of The Ottawa And Chippewa Indians Of Michigan
 >A Grammar Of Their Language,
 >And Personal And Family History Of The Author,

I recall that DNA testing has found some European-similar traces
in the Ojibway, that appears to be pre-Columbian, and as a
Swedish-American I've always been partial to the Kensington Rune
Stone (its linguistic features point to inhabitants of the
province of Bohus Lan in western Sweden, my own ancestral area)
that documents Scandinavian activities in the Lake Superior area
in the late 1300's. Early human activity in N. America looks
like one of those good candidate subject where, even if the
heretics don't turn out to have been right, the
'traditionalists' may turn out to have been more wrong than the
'crackpots'.

See:

http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/island/3634/index2.html

for a fine 'amateur' site about the Kensington stone and why
both geologic and linguistic evidence appears to be mounting for
its authenticity.








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                  Re: 'Little Green Men' [Was 'Roswell UFO

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:35:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:09:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' [Was 'Roswell UFO


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:19:34 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:11:44 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >John,

 >>I asked this a while ago, but don't recall receiving a
 >>definitive answer. When was the phrase "little green men" first
 >>applied to possible UFO occupants?. Brazel's alleged comment
 >>implies it was in fairly general use at the time of Roswell,
 >>which I feel unlikely. Does anyone know the history of this
 >>phrase in an SF and/or ufological context?

 >Ah, the eternal question.

 >While doing the research for my UFO Encyclopedia series, I came
 >upon an item in a fine but forgotten UFO publication, Data-Net,
 >published out of California in the 1960s by a woman named
 >Josephine Clark (no relation to the undersigned). A reader had
 >investigated this very question and concluded that "little green
 >man" as a concept and phrase had come into usage through a comic
 >strip popular in the early 20th Century.

 >I intended to mention this conclusion in the encyclopedia, but
 >by the time I came to a place in the text where I could have
 >dropped this (alleged) factoid, I'd misplaced my copy of the
 >brief article, which still languishes in the parallel universe
 >into which it appears to have fallen. If anybody reading these
 >words has a copy of the Data-Net piece handy, please let us all
 >know.

 >As you are aware, John, some fairy entities traditionally were
 >described as having green skin. So the idea of green-skinned
 >humanoids is hardly new. Of course the question is when this
 >general notion was compressed into the three magic words "little
 >green men."


Jerry, John,

Oh, happy serendipity!

It so haps that the soon forthcoming The Anomalist 10 has an
article by Martin Kottmeyer entitled, you guessed it, "Little
Green Men."

Naturally, I wouldn't want to give the store away, but Kottmeyer
does have the following paragraph:

"What about comics? Starting in April 1950, Eagle comics
presented an adventure of Dan Dare that involved a short green
alien named Mekon. We can doubt its relevance to starting the
expression on several grounds. Mekon was a seriously villainous
character and not likely to invite frivolity. Though he was
short, the race he ruled, the Treens was as tall or taller than
humans. Thus the little green man was singular and not plural.
Last, my understanding is that Eagle wasn't distributed in
America and there seems no evidence that the little green men
expression started in Britain."

Etc. Not much in the way of LGM in comics earlier, which is not
to say that Kottmeyer turned every stone over in his quest, but
a goodly number of them nonetheless.

Depending on which Roswell author you cite, Brazel raised the
LGM remark independently, or in response to a question by Frank
Joyce. There may even be another version or two floating around.
In any event, it appears that LGM was hardly in common usage in
1947.

End of commercial plug.


Dennis Stacy
www.anomalist.com








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                      Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 6:13:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:25:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law - Aldrich


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:32:10 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:19:12 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Shermer's Last Law
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Coming: medical police
 >>6 million dollar people
 >>how much is a human life worth?
 >>Reversing Babel
 >>Darwinion Anti-evolution (devolution)
 >>No one dies
 >>Illegal to become sick
 >>End of Death means End of Birth......
 >>Humans stripped down to the
 >>essence...brain in a bottle with
 >>computer support.
 >>Boredom leads to the urge to due

 >>.....................

 >>all of these (and other) nice things await us whether or not

 >>aliens intervene

 >We have lots of options. My concerns are that we don't ruin
 >things first, either through warfare or environmental abuse.
 >Readers interested in the ideas sketched out by Bruce (above)
 >might like to take a look at some of the links on my

 >"Transhumanism" page:

 >http://mactonnies.com/trans.html

 >Here is my personal take on artificial intelligence and directed
 >evolution:

 >http://mactonnies.com/sentience.html

 >--Mac Tonnies


Well, after reading this stuff, I have to say, thank heavens for
the reptile brain. Because of it there probably won't be any
such future! I'll take a little enhancement around the edges,
thank you, but brain in a bottle, living with no mobility, is
just plain stupid. No doubt lots of people would opt for that.
But humanity is a restless lot.

Clarke's and lots of other futurists' musings are probably no
more relevant then someone in 1850 trying to predict what 1950
would look like. If one looks at the predictions of the past,
few show any insight, they are mostly extrapolations of the
current situations. So in the early 1890s one could wonder how
all the horse manure would be cleaned from the cities with the
increasing pressure towards urbanization; a problem the
automobile solved, but then, it created new problems.


Jan Aldrich








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   Dec > Dec 27

                   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:53:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:29:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Lehmberg


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:15:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000

 >>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:56:49 +0000

 >Dick et al,

 >>>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>>-- Cheers, KARL

 >>Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox and
 >>family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try to
 >>discredit him too).

 >>Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
 >>cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash test
 >>dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more time on
 >>you.

 >Glad to see you've not mellowed a bit, Dick. We need _some_
 >constants in this field.

Regardless, the lay call is that we need his constants more than
your constants. You're an apparent apologist for the unadmitted
mechanism of privileged deceit, or, in for the penny you're not
in for the pound... but whatever your cant or position, it's
obvious to the aforementioned lay person that your mind is
already neatly made up, and unable to truly qualify your
position (likely based pretty solidly on the old Aristotelian
concentric crystal spheres), you ridicule those more
courageously open ended than yourself with smirking sarcasm and
sly innuendo.

 >Anyhoo, I'm still waiting for you to name a "bodies witness" who
 >hasn't been discredited. Anyone who thinks the testimony in re
 >Henderson and the Wilcox family - ll of it second and third hand
 >at best - is credible is incredibly credulous (which you didn't
 >used to be, Dick).

Neat trick of artful fallacy - inappropriately painting Mr. Hall
with his own pet peeve. I'm sure that it's as transparent to him
as it was to me. Moreover, you conveniently confuse intellectual
courage for the merely credulous, Mr. Phlock. The hashed and
rehashed, artlessly commercialized, and haplessly recorded
history of that incident all but obscures the fact that
something highly strange occurred there, most of the rational
would agree. Despite that, there is an unending campaign by
proponents of old paradigms (POOPs) to niggle to death at
corners of the old reports until the reports take on the
dismissible mythological cant of specious urban legends. This
handily detracts from the investigative validity (because it's
spun that way) to discredit the aggregate investigation, so the
short sighted status quo marches merrily on. Nice work Mr.
Phlock.

 >As for Walt Haut's recent claims about bodies, don't you find it
 >the least bit curious that for decades he emphatically claimed
 >not to have seen _anything_ from the alleged crashed flying
 >saucer, not a bit of debris, not a body - nothing? Now, getting
 >up in years, widowed, and in poor heath, the International UFO
 >'Museum' and 'Research Center' his main activity, he suddenly
 >recalls seeing bodies.

It would sound pretty suspicious to me until I remember that you
are not going to be near as vociferously passionate actually
looking for the evidence as you are discrediting what's been
found.

 >This is very much like Betty Hill's UFO landing field, photos,
 >and movies: a credible witness undermining his/her credibility
 >with screwball claims.

It may be that a person can tell the truth and a half when they
perceive that their fellows believe half their truth is the
production of a dim bulb or a lunatic... The multiverse still
yawns and beckons, Mr. Phlock, but mollified by your airy
identification of screwball claims, you pull your warm blanky
back, snuggly, up under your chin...

 >Oh, yes, lest anyone wonder: I'm
 >convinced Betty and Barney Hill were captured by beings from
 >another planet. I'm also quite certain Walt Haut wrote the
 >Roswell press announcement as directed by Col. Blanchard. I'm
 >just as certain that Betty didn't have the continuing UFO
 >sightings, etc., she has claimed, and that Walt didn't see any
 >bodies.

The balance of your ufological contribution belies your
self-proclaimed even handedness/mindedness. On balance, your
efforts seem to call for the final death of investigation while
Mr. Hall's call for its rebirth. Moreover, there is plenty of
other evidence to suggest the highly strange that goes begging
(ignored by you) while you debate the curious merits of the
fetching Frankie Rae... an aging Walter Haut, or the maligned
B&B Hills. Consequently, I don't believe that you believe.

 >Giving credence to such stuff only further undermines the
 >credibility of a field already staggering under a burden of
 >ridicule and doubt, a burden in no small degree self-induced.

That's just traditionalist hoo-rah and specious nonsense. That
burden of ridicule and doubt is fussily maintained by persons
such as yourself to discourage the forced attention of the
contrived mainstream on uncomfortable issues. Defeatable
charlatans and their officious opposition (partners likely!) get
airtime and the open mike while true investigators are mired in
a lack of quality funding, ignored by corporate press, and
mocked by intellectual cowards holding all the quality chairs.

 >Keep up the good work, Dick.

I'm sure he will, despite your best efforts, sneering sarcasm,
or reflexive ridicule. He's got the ethical high ground.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 27

                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:49:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:41:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:15:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:58:02 +0000


 >Dick et al,

 >>>Name _one_, Dick. I double-dog dare ya.

 >>>-- Cheers, KARL

 >>Karl Stacy, is it? Names: Pappy Henderson, Sheriff Wilcox
 >>and family, and now Walter Haut (though I know you will try
 >>to discredit him too).

 >>Now, when we talk about "Air Force apologists" you take the
 >>cake. I have you on videotape eagerly embracing the crash
 >>test dummies. 'Nuf said, and I don't plan to waste any more
 >>time on you.

 >Glad to see you've not mellowed a bit, Dick. We need _some_
 >constants in this field.

 >Anyhoo, I'm still waiting for you to name a "bodies witness"
 >who hasn't been discredited. Anyone who thinks the testimony
 >in re Henderson and the Wilcox family - ll of it second and
 >third hand at best - is credible is incredibly credulous
 >(which you didn't used to be, Dick).

 >As for Walt Haut's recent claims about bodies, don't you find
 >it the least bit curious that for decades he emphatically
 >claimed not to have seen _anything_ from the alleged crashed
 >flying saucer, not a bit of debris, not a body - nothing?
 >Now, getting up in years, widowed, and in poor heath, the
 >International UFO 'Museum' and 'Research Center' his main
 >activity, he suddenly recalls seeing bodies.

 >This is very much like Betty Hill's UFO landing field,
 >photos, and movies: a credible witness undermining his/her
 >credibility with screwball claims. Oh, yes, lest anyone
 >wonder: I'm convinced Betty and Barney Hill were captured by
 >beings from another planet. I'm also quite certain Walt Haut
 >wrote the Roswell press announcement as directed by Col.
 >Blanchard. I'm just as certain that Betty didn't have the
 >continuing UFO sightings, etc., she has claimed, and that
 >Walt didn't see any bodies.

 >Giving credence to such stuff only further undermines the
 >credibility of a field already staggering under a burden of
 >ridicule and doubt, a burden in no small degree self-induced.

 >Keep up the good work, Dick.


Karl-

I think that the lack of physical evidence to back up the claims
of witnesses is being used to discredit many of them. That lack
certainly makes it difficult to prove their claims, but this
doesn't 'prove' that they are lying (or misguided or
hallucinating). You have drawn conclusions based on the evidence
you have at hand, but that merely begins the debate process with
those who would interpret the information differently.

The 'Crash Test Dummy' explanation given by the Air Force was
not accepted by most in the field of Ufology, and indeed it had
the effect of driving the news media to the major UFO
organizations for rational information on such a theory. Indeed,
the outcome of the Air Force explanation was to provide a
certainly amount of 'networking' between the media and major UFO
groups. Perhaps we can get the coverage given to this subject
out of the 'Style' section and onto the First or Second Front
Page of the paper, and for this we can thank the Air Force's
miscalculated explanation.

Either side in this debate can issue challenges all day long,
but that only helps to inflame the discussion and certainly
isn't about to change anyone's mind. You have defined it as
'incredulous' that people would still believe the testimony of
the Wilcox or Henderson families and accept that as evidence,
and I would say that it is just as incredulous that anyone would
buy into the Air Force explanations for the Roswell incident
(and I think the count is now up to three).


Steve









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                     Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:46:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Connors


 >From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Once again Karl Pflock, like the proverbial child, stirs the pot
regarding the Roswell incident. Not unusual for a former CIA
spook to do such a thing.

Mr. Pflock attempts to speak from authority on what Mr. Haut has
stated, yet Mr. Pflock was not privy to the oral history, nor
has he seen the interview. Thus, he speaks of Mr. Haut's
credibility from a position of not knowing diddly squat and just
thinks he does. In order to cement his authority, Mr. Pflock
reguritates to UFO UpDates that Mr. Haut is widowed, in poor
health and a founding member of the Roswell UFO Museum, _none_
of which have anything to do with the credibility of Mr. Haut or
what Mr. Haut has related.

I could make the same case as to suggest that Mr. Pflock is no
longer credible as a ufological researcher because he is:

1. Old.

2. Has a quirky mindset (read his book and articles).

3. Is associated with the flip-flop Saucerology of James
Moseley, which he writes yellow journalism for 'Saucer Smear'.

4. A nefarious 'for profit' ufological researcher who is trying
to outshine Greer with CISCOP book deals.

5. A CIA spook (once in the 'Company', always in the 'Company')
who will do anything to spew disinformation on UFO UpDates and
any other forum he is allowed to taint.

6. Changes his own position on ufological matters, as fast as
Afghans change sides during a fight, to suit his hidden agenda.
Re: Anthropromophic Test Dummies.

In a nutshell, simple and sweet. Karl Pflock is not qualified to
judge the credibility of Mr. Walter Haut. Karl Pflock has not
seen the oral history of Mr. Haut and does not know what he is
talking about regarding what Mr. Haut has stated and why.

I vote with Richard Hall. Time is wasted on Mr. Pflock.


Wendy Connors









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                      'The Ultimate Long Distance Call'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:01:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:01:52 -0500
Subject: 'The Ultimate Long Distance Call'

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_long_distance_011227.html


The Ultimate Long Distance Call

By Seth Shostak
SETI Institute
posted: 07:00 am ET
27 December 2001

It's one thing to search for intelligent aliens, but it's
another to actually talk to those we might find. This isn't just
a matter of what language (if any!) to use, or even how to
encode the information. Encoding for mutual understanding is
merely a daunting technical challenge. For example, should we
broadcast messages using pulse code modulation, AM radio,
spread-spectrum techniques, or something we don't have a name
for yet? Until we pick up a signal, we really haven't a clue.

As for what language to use, better minds than mine are
wrestling with that particular adversary. Personally, I vote for
pictures.

But aside from these difficulties, there's another problem
that's as obvious as Mae West: it takes time for signals to
traverse interstellar distances. The speed of light, fast as it
is, is finite. Watch as CNN news anchors talk with their
correspondents in Afghanistan. There's always a bit of a delay
between question and answer. This isn't because the
correspondents are slow-witted, but is simply a consequence of
the time it takes the signals to ping-pong up to the
communications satellites and back down to Earth. Annoying, but
not devastating.

Of course, conversing with extraterrestrials is going to be more
than merely annoying. The nearest star, Alpha Centauri, is
roughly 4 light-years distant, as every school child can remind
you. That's an 8 year delay between query and response. Three
exchanges into the conversation, and your kids have already
graduated from college.

But the aliens are unlikely to be hanging out at Alpha Centauri
(which has been fairly carefully scanned for signals already).
We've noted in a previous article that if there are 10,000
broadcasting civilizations in the Galaxy, then the nearest one
will be 500 to 1,000 light-years away. The resultant
conversational delay will be measured in millennia. That's
tedious.

But it leads to a provocative thought. If the aliens are
altruistic (they just want to beam information into space, and
don't care about chatting), then the long turn-around time
doesn't matter. But if they are "pinging" nearby stars with a
giant laser in the hope of waking up their galactic neighbors,
then it's reasonable to assume that they won't blast away at
targets that are so distant that they can't expect a response
within an alien lifetime.

This prompts a simple, but interesting calculation: for any
given lifetime, how many star systems can an alien reasonably
ping?

To make the computation, we need to know the average space
density of stars. Big stars, those heftier than the Sun, have a
density of 0.0004 stars per cubic light-year. Smaller stars, the
ones we believe are better candidates for hosting sophisticated
life, are (thankfully) more plentiful, checking in at 0.001
stars per cubic light-year. Wielding that number and a bit of
middle school geometry, you can work out the following:

N = 0.0005 t3,

Where t is the lifetime of an alien broadcaster, and N is the
number of stars that can be pinged with the hope of having an
answer before death. Readers who have misplaced their pocket
calculators can use the table below to look up N for various
alien lifetimes.

t (years)   N

50          65
100        520
200       4,100
1,000   500,000
5,000    65 million


For example, if your lifetime is a hundred years and you want to
chat, then there are 520 good stars within range.

What can we conclude from this? Optical communications are more
likely to be deliberately targeted. But there's no point in
flashing the neighbors unless you believe there's at least a
decent chance of getting a reply. Even being relatively
optimistic about the number of savvy societies in our Galaxy,
most astronomers suspect that only one star system in a million
or so is likely to host thinking beings. Bottom line? If we find
flashing lights in the sky, then it's probable that the guys
behind the high-powered lasers at the other end have managed to
engineer themselves to have lifetimes of thousands of years or
more.

It's a speculative thought, but an interesting one. If we hear
from ET, not only can we expect his civilization to be an old
one, ET himself may be quite long in the tooth.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]








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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:27:54 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:12:53 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Randle


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:35:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' [Was 'Roswell UFO Bombshell']
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:19:34 -0600

 >>>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:11:44 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'

 >>John,

 >>>I asked this a while ago, but don't recall receiving a
 >>>definitive answer. When was the phrase "little green men" first
 >>>applied to possible UFO occupants?. Brazel's alleged comment
 >>>implies it was in fairly general use at the time of Roswell,
 >>>which I feel unlikely. Does anyone know the history of this
 >>>phrase in an SF and/or ufological context?

 >>Ah, the eternal question.

 >>While doing the research for my UFO Encyclopedia series, I came
 >>upon an item in a fine but forgotten UFO publication, Data-Net,
 >>published out of California in the 1960s by a woman named
 >>Josephine Clark (no relation to the undersigned). A reader had
 >>investigated this very question and concluded that "little green
 >>man" as a concept and phrase had come into usage through a comic
 >>strip popular in the early 20th Century.

<snip, leaving in reference to Jerry's UFO Encyclopedia>


 >Jerry, John,

 >Oh, happy serendipity!

 >It so haps that the soon forthcoming The Anomalist 10 has an
 >article by Martin Kottmeyer entitled, you guessed it, "Little
 >Green Men."

  <snip, leaving in reference to The Anomalist 10>

 >Depending on which Roswell author you cite, Brazel raised the
 >LGM remark independently, or in response to a question by Frank
 >Joyce. There may even be another version or two floating around.
 >In any event, it appears that LGM was hardly in common usage in
 >1947.

Actually, the question has always been did Mack Brazel say,
"Little Green Men", or did he say, "Green men", which, of
course, changes the equation. Had he merely said, "You know how
they talk of green men..." then it is more likely that he had
heard something or remembered something from that era.

This was a question that we researched carefully, back about a
decade ago. Around the turn of the century (the last one, not
the most recent), there was a comic strip know as The Yellow
Kid, which was printed in yellow ink. It was wildly popular and
newspaper editors kept tempting the writer with bigger pay
checks and more perks so that he jumped from one newspaper to
the next (and hence the term Yellow Journalism). To combat this,
one editor created The Green Man, which was printed in green ink
and dealt with a man from another world. Hence the idea that
people not of Earth were green.

There is also a wealth of material from dozens of other sources
that have kept this suggestion in the public consciousness. As
mentioned by others earlier, there was the Edgar Rice Burroughs'
John Carter on Mars which had a race of giant creatures that
were green, though they had six arms, and could never be
mistaken for human. The humans on Mars were red.

There was also a Popeye cartoon that held a copyright of 1938 in
which the alien creatures that didn't look particular human were
also green. And, in 1947, as a result of the Kenneth Arnold
sighting, a syndicated columnist, Hal Boyle, wrote a series of
stories about his adventures aboard a flying saucer in which the
pilot was green.

So, the concept that aliens would be green men was, I think,
well established as a cultural idea by 1947. It was so pervasive
that it is not inconceivable that Mack Brazel would have been
aware of it and mentioned it to Frank Joyce. That is to say,
Brazel might have said "Green men", rather than "Little green
men".

The term "Little Green Man" seems to be more related to a world
after 1947 and seems to have come into popular use first in the
1950s.

But, the real question here, and one that I've never been able
to find a satisfactory answer for is how Brazel would have seen
the bodies to know that they weren't green. If we follow the
Karl Pflock, et.al. school of thought, there never were bodies
and Brazel therefore shouldn't have made any comment about the
color to anyone.

If we follow the alien craft school of thought, Brazel found a
field filled with strange metallic debris, but there were no
bodies associated with that field, nothing from Jesse Marcel,
Sr. who walked it to suggest that there was anything other than
metallic debris (and I believe had there been bodies there,
while Marcel might not have mentioned that to those who
interviewed him, he would have made mention of that to his son,
but apparently never did. Jesse Marcel, Jr. told me flat out
that his father never mentioned bodies... though there is a
report from a cousin who says that Marcel, Sr. did mention the
bodies but now we move into a whole new question).

So, the question really becomes, if Mack Brazel did see bodies,
where did he see them? Surely the military wouldn't have
revealed them to Brazel, if he didn't already know about them.
This might render all this discussion about little green men
moot.


KRandle









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                      Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:26:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700

 >>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Wendy,

 >Once again Karl Pflock, like the proverbial child, stirs the pot
 >regarding the Roswell incident. Not unusual for a former CIA
 >spook to do such a thing.

I think that reasonable people can disagree about what did or
not happen at Roswell in July 1947. Though often exasperating,
the debate has been good for all of us, helping to clarify
issues and hold proponents of the various perspectives to
rational and evidential standards which might otherwise go by
the board.

It does us no good and only harm, however, to drag in the sort
of innuendo above. I am not holding you uniquely responsible, of
course; I see this sort of thing all the time from all sorts of
people. I've been at the receiving end myself, more than once,
of charges of being a cover-up agent. In a particularly
memorable moment, I was identified as such by no less than
channeled extraterrestrials.

In the present instance, I see no evidence whatever that Karl is
some sort of secret agent of an anti-Roswell conspiracy. Unless
- an extremely unlikely prospect, in my judgment - clear and
unambiguous (or even compellingly suggestive and circumstantial)
evidence emerges that Karl is insincere and sinister, we would
be well advised to drop the conspiratorial readings of his
motives, take him at his word, and deal straight on with his
serious, articulate criticisms of the Roswell incident. Maybe,
at the end of this sort of debate, we'll actually get to the
truth we're all looking for.


Jerry Clark











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                          Filer'S Files #52 - 2001

From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:12:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:33:11 -0500
Subject: Filer'S Files #52 - 2001


Happy New Year

FILER'S FILES #52 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 27, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com http://www.filersfiles.com,

NORTH POLE REPORT -- A UFO with a red nose light was seen
heading south on December 24, 2001, and has been reported almost
every where by NORAD with sightings in the US , England, France,
Italy, Brazil, South Africa, Australia, Finland, Russia,
Afghanistan, India, and, Singapore. NORAD has tracked Santa
every Christmas Eve since it was founded in 1958. Santa is
resting after his long journey that included gunfire over the
Middle East, falling bombs in Afghanistan, no fly zones over
Iraq, the American Air Traffic Control System, and fighters
launched out of Holloman Air Force Base at 2:00 AM to intercept.
The NORAD Santa Cam picked up Santa Clause and nine reindeer,
the lead reindeer had a red nose light.

UFOs HAVE BEEN REPORTED in Virginia, Florida, Wisconsin,
Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Oregon,
Washington, California, and Cuba. While Santa reports increased,
the number of UFO reports dropped as they have done in recent
years during the Holidays.

SCIENTISTS FIND SUGAR THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSE

More of the building blocks of life have been found in
meteorites and comets.

A discovery by a NASA scientist of sugar and several related
organic compounds in two carbonaceous meteorites provides the
first evidence that another fundamental building block of life
on Earth may have come from outer space. A carbonaceous
meteorite contains carbon as one of its important constituents.

Previously, researchers had found in meteorites other organic,
carbon-based compounds that play major roles in life on Earth,
such as amino acids and carboxylic acids, but no sugars. The
new research is reported in a paper, "Carbonaceous Meteorites as
a Source of Sugar-related Organic Compounds for the Early
Earth," by Dr. George Cooper and coworkers at NASA's Ames
Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. "Finding these compounds
greatly adds to our understanding of what organic materials
could have been present on Earth before life began," Cooper
said. "Sugar chemistry appears to be involved in life as far
back as our records go." As far back as 3.8 billion years, he
said. An isotope is one of two or more atoms whose nuclei have
the same number of protons but different numbers of neutrons.
Scientists have long believed meteorites and comets played a
role in the origin of life. Raining down on Earth during the
heavy bombardment period some 3.8 to 4.5 billion years ago,
they brought with them the materials critical for life, such as
oxygen, sulfur, hydrogen and nitrogen. Sugars and the closely
related compounds discovered by Cooper, collectively called
"polyols," are critical to all known life forms. They act as
components of the nucleic acids RNA and DNA, constituents of
cell membranes.

"This discovery shows that it's highly likely organic synthesis
critical to life has gone on throughout the universe," said
Kenneth A. Souza, acting director of astrobiology and space
research at Ames. "Then, on Earth, since the other critical
elements were in place, life could blossom."

Cooper identified a small sugar called "dihydroxyacetone" and
several sugar-like substances, known as sugar acids and sugar
alcohols, in his study of the Murchison and Murray meteorites.
All these are important for life today. He also found glucose,
one sugar alcohol, glycerol (also known as glycerin), that is
used by all contemporary cells to build cell walls. The work is
published in the Dec. 20 issue of "Nature" and can be found at:
http://www.nature.com. Thanks to NASA.gov.

VIRGINIA DISK SEEN

NEWPORT NEWS -- The witness reports that on December 16, 2001,
I was outside with my dog, who was looking up at the sky and
backing up. Something in the sky startled the dog, so I looked
up and saw there was a disc shaped object zigzagging across the
morning sky from east to west at 10:30 AM. The disc was
glowing, so I yelled for my boyfriend. My boyfriend said it
looked like a glowing football to him, but I thought it looked
like a disc. It was very fast and it seemed like it was
producing it's own light. It made no sound and left no trail of
itself being there. The sky had a few cirrus clouds, but the
majority of the sky was clear. There was only one craft and I
could see it until it met the line of trees that border the
horizon, it continued to glow for the fifteen minutes we saw
it. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com
at Reporting Hotline:(206) 722-3000

FLORIDA BLINKING LIGHTS

NORTH PORT -- The witness reports while driving on interstate
I-75 on December 16, 2001, between exit #33 and #34 an object
appeared in the northeastern sky at dusk. It was 1000 feet up,
and a mile from our current position. At first, it appeared to
be a plane heading in our direction at 6:05 PM. Almost
immediately the driver of the car and I realized that this was
not an ordinary aircraft. There were two lights in the front of
the craft like an ordinary commercial airliner but the lights
were at least 10-15 feet in diameter and blinking on and off
one at a time. On the top of the craft were five or six bright
blinking lights similar to the strobe effect what you would see
on the top of a tower. There did not appear to be any shape of
a wing or tail found on either a plane or helicopter. As we got
closer we saw that there was another large bright white light
turning on and off and the craft was completely stationary just
to the side of the interstate. I then stuck my head out the
window and observed the same bright lights that were in the
front and side of the craft in what now appeared to be the rear
of the craft. We were going 60 MPH and as soon as I brought my
head into the car the lights completely disappeared. We scoured
the sky for several minutes, but it was gone. The craft was
black or gray in color. There was five cars driving in the
group with us and all of the people in the other cars had
baffled looks on their faces. My driver and I could not
identify the craft. Thanks to Peter Davenport
director@ufocenter.com. Web: www.UFOCENTER.com WISCONSIN FLYING
V SHAPED CRAFT

WINTERS -- Joe Trainor writes, "Here's a UFO report I received
from an eyewitness in my area. I just got it today December 23,
2001. The sighting was in the heavily forested region of the
Chippewa Flowage in Northern Wisconsin, south of Ashland, a
notorious UFO hotspot. On August 13, 2001, at 7:00 PM, E. A.
Gawlik and his two sons were standing on the shore of the Lake
of the Pines. The witness says, the sun was just starting to
drop below the tree line behind us. My son said, "Dad what the
heck is that?" He pointed to the north and we could see an
object approaching from the west at 100 feet above the tree
line moving real slow to the east. It then flew two hundred
feet above the water and its speed could not be more than 30
mile per hour. It was a bright silver object about the size of
a dime held out at arm's length. I saw a metallic almost
reflective object that without my glasses was round. My boys
both said they saw a "V" shaped object. It was a quarter of a
mile away moving very slowly to the east across the lake. After
fifteen seconds the object turned into a small red dot. The red
dot lasted about one-second and then it vanished. Thanks to Joe
Trainor, reports@ufoinfo.com and eagawlik4579@aol.com

MISSOURI

MANITOU SPRINGS -- Kevin Jones reports that he was on 20 Mile
Hike with the Boy Scouts in the autumn of 1976. At 10:00 PM,
after camp was pitched I was looking at an incalculable number
of stars. A light that looked like a star moved slowly across
the sky. The light entered a box that could be drawn with
imaginary lines between four stars and started to bounce
erratically never leaving the confines of this box. Next we saw
a faster moving light pulsating at a rapid, standard rate pass
though the sky. Then we saw another solid light rocket across
the sky low, along the tree line. Before long, the sky seemed
to be alive with moving objects. We saw a grouping of three
stars in a triangular formation that flew across the sky but
each individual point of light took turns taking the lead. It
traveled always leading with the point. We saw more than a
dozen lights in motion. All of this yellowish starlight lights,
solid and flashing, were about the same size and intensity of
bright stars.

We ran to get to camp to show the other Scouts. At about half
way there I noticed larger illuminated objects floating over
the fallow field. We saw relatively close lights the size of
beach balls. These objects were round and internally
illuminated, the color of dirty streetlights. The light did not
seem to be focused in a beam but rather evenly radiating. The
motion was like an under-inflated balloon over very hot
pavement. As the pavement heats the balloon rises quickly. As
it rises, the air in the balloon cools so it rises more and
more slowly until the balloon achieves neutral buoyancy. This
state lasts for only a moment until the balloon begins to sink.
The sinking slows closer to the ground as the air inside
reheats and so the cycle starts again. There were three or four
of these bumping around over the field. They could have been
the size of cars. Thanks to Kevin Jones
kevinjones@earthlink.net

TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO LIGHTS ATTACKED

TUCUMCARI -- Lord Vile reports that a half dozen witnesses saw
a high speed object moving southeast across the sky towards
Texas on December 1, 2001, in the late evening sky. You could
hear the roar of several F-16 fighters chasing the lights.
These lights changed direction numerous times as the fighters
gave chase. At first they flew east, then south and then a 180
degree turn to the north. Suddenly the fighters fired eight to
ten air to air missiles at the evading lights. An airborne
explosion was followed by what appeared to a crash of the
unknown object.

The witnesses scanned the news reports for more information.
Television verified that missiles had been fired at an unknown
object. Later NORAD announced that a Proton rocket had been
used to launch three satellites from Russia ten hours earlier.
The rocket had reentered the atmosphere at approximately 2120
hours, Mountain time on Saturday, December 01, 2001. The actual
Proton rocket debris was reported with white "tails", slower
and larger than shooting stars were seen moving from southwest
to northeast. However, accounts that reached the National
Reporting Center and myself described what appeared to be more
than just the reentry of a single rocket. Normally, reentry
vehicles do not change course, nor are they chased by fighter
aircraft.

Rick Bordignon reported to NASA he was in a commercial airliner
bound for Las Vegas when he saw them. "I was looking out the
left window into the starry night when I noticed an approaching
light," he recalled. "I was thinking, Hmmmmm, looks like a
missile. But rather than raise a general sense of panic by
yelling 'Incoming!,' I did the next best thing and got out my
camera. "I snapped one picture, but my camera is poor in low
light. So I stopped to adjust the settings. When I looked out
again I was amazed by what I saw: hundreds of objects with
colorful glowing tails! So I snapped another one but it only
picked up the brightest fragments -- and it was shaky, too.
"The light plume [seemed to] go up and over our plane. After it
was gone I looked around to judge the reactions of the other
passengers -- and I swear everyone was sleeping! "When I got
off the plane, I tracked down the pilot. He said every pilot in
the Midwest saw it and it was the 'buzz of the frequencies.'
They had never witnessed anything like it before." See
following URL for details:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast03dec_1.htm?list4963
4ed

Editor's Note: Whenever, space debris is spotted there are
frequently additional UFO reports. We could simply ignore these
reports, but a pattern is developing. First space debris, then
numerous UFO reports, then strange associated reports not
really explained such as the Louisiana report below. Are we
using space debris for target practice or are UFOs attempting
to penetrate the atmosphere using the standard space debris for
cover?

LOUISIANA TWO LOW ALTITUDE, LARGE, SLOW MOVING CIGARS

S.BOSSIER -- Possibly connected to these reports on December 1,
2001, the witness reports hearing a tremendous roaring sound at
8:45 PM, (CST). The noise made their house vibrate, so the
witness went outside on his deck and saw two large, low
altitude craft, flying at about 2,000 feet or less. The craft
had a strange lighting configuration, very bright red lights in
the "center of both craft, and bright white lights on front and
back. It was a clear night with good visibility. There were no
wing lights or tail lights, just lights spanning the length of
both craft! There were no green lights or other lights that FAA
requires. These craft were extremely noisy, rumbling and
roaring, to the point, I feared a crash was about to occur! The
duration of the sighting was too long to be conventional jets,
judging by their size and altitude. Being so low and large, it
was hard for me to comprehend how they could stay airborne.
There may have been more then two, but I only saw two craft the
size of B-52's bombers. However, they were not jets like those,
they flew much too low and slow! Thanks to Peter Davenport
www.ufocenter.com

ARIZONA STAR-LIKE LIGHT VISIBLE WITH THE SUN RISEN

TEMPE This may be pretty weak, but as the sun started rising
this morning at 8:00 AM I saw what looked like a bright star,
about 2 degrees below the moon on December 3, 2001. What was
unusual was that the sun was rising, and there were no other
stars out. I was driving to work a distance of 20 miles, and
throughout that drive the star was still visible. Even now,
with the sun entirely raised and sun beating down on the
ground, the dot, though very faint is still visible. The
position of the dot stayed constant relative to the moon, which
leads me to believe it was very far away. It is possibly a
satellite in synchronous orbit or a planet? but I've never
noticed such a thing before, and certainly not with the sky so
bright. It did not make any movement while I was watching it.

WASHINGTON LIGHTS

TROUT LAKE -- With over 2000 eyewitnesses here at the Sattva
Sanctuary in Trout Lake, some of which are Astro/Nuclear/Plasma
physicists, 14+ hours of video of ships stopping, lighting up
on command, accelerating, making right angle turns, landing and
morphing into as many as four brilliant lights then back to
one, appearing with pre-knowledge right on schedule, and with
pictures taken by UFO investigators etc., it seems this is not
enough. This case, if the evidence presented in a court of law,
would win hands down as proof UFOs are real. People are
executed on less evidence. There are even pictures of ships
stepping down in vibration. Scientists, such as Jim Todd at the
Omsi Planetarium say these are nothing more than satellites. We
are at a complete loss as to how a scientist with any ability
to reason or apply scientific method could make such a
statement after viewing the footage.

These objects are coming in every size shape and color, are
seen by multiple eyewitnesses. They are shown maneuvering,
responding to requests by people on the ground to light up,
landing on the mountain, and flying behind trees. They allowed
us to photograph them with pre-knowledge of the event. Any
reasonable mind would come to the conclusion that these are
unknowns, they do not fit into any know parameter and indeed
need further study. There is no landing strip in the nearby
forest, and satellites do not change directions, stop, and
land. Enjoy the latest photos:
http://www.cazekiel.org/eceti/photos2.htm

OREGON FLYING TRIANGLE

GRANTS PASS -- On December 15, 2001, the witness was driving to
Eugene from Medford and happened to look out of the window and
through the clouds saw a very large blinking red light. His
mother was driving down the freeway so he had an opportunity to
study it. It was 6:10 PM, and at first he thought it was just
an airplane, but the witness states, "I kept looking at it, and
was surprised by the large amount of area it was lighting up."
It was moving from north to west, now very rapidly, still
blinking, then I saw its huge enormous size as it was blinking
and realized that this wasn't an airplane, and had to be a UFO.
There was no doubt in my mind. It was a very large Flying
Triangle UFO outlined with blinking red lights. The triangular
shape was very large, and moving west closer down into the
mountains, outlined in red blinking lights. Thanks to Peter B.
Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting Center
www.ufocenter.com CALIFORNIA CIRCLE

SACRAMENTO MOUNTAINS -- On December 10, 2001, the witness a
filmmaker was on a backpacking trip at Henry Cowe State Park
with my father and his best friend, who were sleeping when I
saw this one. I looked up and saw something moving twenty times
faster than a plane at 3:00 AM. There was a sphere of light
blazing through the night sky. I have always thought the
existence of UFOs very possible. My father and his friend at
other times have actually seen UFOs. It was way too big and
didn't move like a shooting star, and it had no tail either.
 From what I could see in twenty seconds was white in color,
like a light. It came from beyond the horizon and just as fast
as it came it darted back into the sky. I thought to myself:
"That had to be a UFO. think it's obvious these things exist.
Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, www.ufocenter.com

CUBA UFO SEEN BY PILOTS

MANZANILLO -- Nick Balaskas writes that he just got back from
Cuba and what may turn out to be a UFO encountered by the
pilots of a Canadian charter airplane I was a passenger on. Our
Airbus 320 Skyservice plane (flight SV524) was making a
nighttime approach on December 14, 2001, to the airport near
Cayo Coco, Cuba. We were startled when we heard the engines get
louder and felt pushed down into our seats. This was shortly
followed by a near weightlessness sensation. The captain
announced that his instruments detected a false signal of
another aircraft in the area and in the interest of safety he
took evasive actions. This was the reason for what we felt.

My final destination was the next airport near Manzanillo,
Cuba, but all the passengers were asked to disembark at Cayo
Coco so the aircraft could be cleaned for new passengers. I
spoke with a few of these passengers who said they saw our
plane "go around" after seeing a single red light fly low over
the airport as we were coming to land. They thought it may have
been a small plane but could not explain why only a red light
was observed. Apart from our plane, there were no others on the
ground at that airport that night.

Getting back in the plane, I told the flight attendant standing
by the door next to the cockpit about the red light seen by
passengers at the airport (in a loud enough voice so the pilots
could hear too who turned their heads in my direction). She
suggested it may have been a UFO and said she would find out
for me. I never heard back from her. I later told the
passengers seating next me who experienced what I did and they
thought they would be more comfortable with the explanation of
a near collision with a UFO than the thought of flying in an
airplane with faulty instruments. Is there anyway of finding
out what really happened during that aborted night landing?
Thanks to Nick Balaskas

NEW YORK SCI-FI VIDEO ANALYSIS

NEW YORK CITY -- SCI FI Channel has repeatedly ran an
advertisement that showed the following has announcement: "Get
the Whole Story@ SCIFI.com/happens", then "SCIFI Happens in
NY." Then a thirty second video is shown of a women riding in a
helicopter on July 24 2000, near the World Trade Center Towers.
She points to a UFO behind one of the towers that suddenly
acceleration and flies past the helicopter. As it climbs up out
of sight the UFO leaves a contrail. MUFON's Jeff Sainio has
analyzed the video for us and has made the following findings:

"Since careful analysis of the video shows the expected
westward motion of the helicopter, and even cars moving through
an intersection, the background video appears real, with
presumably the UFO pasted in. The violent motion of the
helicopter appears difficult to explain in this scenario, with
the chopper below the tops of, and only a few hundred feet away
from nearby skyscrapers. Such aerobatics seem like a risk to
life or a pilot's license." I improved my image-analysis
software, allowing me to stabilize the image of the UFO
contrail. Previously, with only cloudy reference images, the
field-by-field motion of the UFO couldn't be reliably measured.
With stabilization, the UFO motion is shown, toward the end of
visibility, the UFO only moves every other field (i.e. every
frame, not every field). This is conclusive evidence that the
UFO was edited into the video by a lazy faker who didn't bother
working on every field as required for a real video. I
re-checked the helicopter motion and merely got better images
verifying my previous conclusions that the helicopter did some
violent motion, and the blades bounced around quite a bit.
Thanks to Jeff Sainio, Jeffrey.Sainio@qg.com

MARS SURFACE MAY HAVE WATER

NASA reports that its Scientists already know there is water
ice in the polar cap. However, water ice near the surface in
warmer regions of the planet would be a remarkable and
long-sought finding that would have broad implications in the
search for extraterrestrial life. The data, collected during
tests of Odyssey's neutron spectrometer, show signs of
hydrogen, which may mean there is water. Hydrogen is one
component of water but also exists alone and in other
substances. NASA researchers stressed that the findings are
preliminary at a meeting at the American Geophysical Union in
San Francisco. The detection of hydrogen points to the
possibility that there is water ice within 3 feet (1 meter) of
the surface, said James Garvin, lead scientist for the Mars
Exploration Program. "But whatever it is, it bodes very well
for finding hydrogen in the upper few feet of Mars, and the
most likely culprit is water ice." Such ice might melt in
summer months and would be reachable by robotic or human
explorers. It might even support microbial life, as researchers
have found on Earth that wherever there is water, there is
life. Bill Feldman, the principal investigator of Odyssey's
neutron spectrometer reports the quantity of hydrogen detected
was startling -- suggesting a huge concentration relative to
what was found with a similar instrument on Lunar Prospector,
which surveyed the Moon. Researchers may task Odyssey to begin
mapping crustal water ice during the first week January, Garvin
said.

Garvin said a great story might be about to unfold. The
hydrogen detection was made during the first test of Odyssey's
neutron spectrometer, a subsystem of a gamma ray spectrometer
instrument. Garvin explained that the speculation of water ice
is based on comparing observations over the permanent ice cap
with observations farther south. Scientists know that the polar
cap contains both water ice and carbon dioxide ice, commonly
thought of as dry ice. "This pass suggested that hydrogen was
enriched in a high-latitude region extending from around 55
degrees North to near to the edge of the North polar cap,"
Garvin said. "This suggests, that if the hydrogen in the
northern high latitudes is water, that there is ice in the
upper meter or so of this region and that it is masked by a
carbon dioxide frost cover on the permanent cap." Thanks to
SPACE.com.

Editor's Note: There have been strong photographic indications
of water on Mars for many years.

PRAYER IS POWERFUL!

ABC News announced on Christmas Eve that prayer, chanting,
meditation and similar forms of prayer have an amazing effect
on the human body. Blood pressure is lowered and a feeling of
relief from stress is accomplished. Praying is excellent for
your own good health and mental well being. Also, those who are
sick are most likely to recover if prayed for by others.

Just before Christmas, several ministers were invited to the
White House to meet with President Bush who was energetic,
joyful, and very focused. One minister asked President Bush how
he could seem so calm and peaceful in the midst of all the
tragedy? The President's reply was, "I'm feeling stronger now
than I've ever been in my life. And the reason is because every
person in America is praying for me. When I stay on my knees,
that's when I have power." The ministers then asked the
President how he would like them to pray for him, and how their
congregations back home should be praying. The President asked
for clarity of mind so that he could make wise decisions, and
then he asked that we pray specifically for his wife and two
daughters, as he is very concerned about their safety. No human
leader is perfect, so let's keep President Bush lifted up in
prayer.

This years tragedies on September 11, changed the world.
Terrorism was able to destroy some great buildings and kill
some 3000 mostly innocent civilians. There is still a moral
distinction between killing soldiers and civilians. I hope a
lesson is learned that little was gained by either side by
these actions. Just when the UFO Disclosure Project was
starting to gain momentum the world was only concerned with
terrorism and finding those responsible. May God bless America
and may His glory be done in the midst of this tragedy! God
reigns over heaven and earth and I hope there is a Happy New
Year for us all. A prayer for us all might even help heal your
own body and perhaps our world.

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over an
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space. Jeff spends hundreds of
hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space and is now an
expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. I feel confident we could go into a
court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving
at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender
2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011 Jeff has an
operation his back and is still in pain, we ask you to send
your prayers.

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN FOR THE HOLIDAYS

The new UFO Store is open on our web site with some of the best
UFO books and paraphernalia available. Help support UFO
research by purchasing through us! Filer's Files is dedicated
to uncovering the truth about UFOs and has sent them out free
since January 1997. Your support is needed to cover expenses,
and when you shop in our store, you get the satisfaction of
quality products, with the knowledge that you have helped
support the search for the truth. Come help our adventure,
while supporting UFO research! Order online today, at
http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.

Happy Holidays, and may God grant you all your Holiday wishes.

George A. Filer













   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                        Re: Odd Native Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:28:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:36:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Odd Native Story - Clark


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Odd Native Story
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:59:50 -0600

 >>Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:18:50 EST
 >>From: Paul White Wolf <Pwitewolf@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Odd Native Story
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>History Of The Ottawa And Chippewa Indians Of Michigan
 >>A Grammar Of Their Language,
 >>And Personal And Family History Of The Author,

 >I recall that DNA testing has found some European-similar traces
 >in the Ojibway, that appears to be pre-Columbian, and as a
 >Swedish-American I've always been partial to the Kensington Rune
 >Stone (its linguistic features point to inhabitants of the
 >province of Bohus Lan in western Sweden, my own ancestral area)
 >that documents Scandinavian activities in the Lake Superior area
 >in the late 1300's. Early human activity in N. America looks
 >like one of those good candidate subject where, even if the
 >heretics don't turn out to have been right, the
 >'traditionalists' may turn out to have been more wrong than the
 >'crackpots'.

A huge paradigm shift has taken place in the discipline of
pre-Columbian archaeology, where as recently as a decade or two
ago it was written in stone that the people we now call
'Indians' were the first people here. We know now that Indians
first show up in archaeological evidence some 8000 years ago.
Other people were already here. Just how soon these people
(largely, it appears, from the South Pacific) got here is still
a matter of debate, with figures ranging from 15,000 to even
50,000 years ago. A number of excellent recent books discuss
this fascinating subject, including E. James Dixon's Bones,
Boats, and Bison: Archaeology and the First Colonization of
Western North America (University of New Mexico Press, 1999),
Thomas D. Dillehay's The Settlement of the Americas: A New
Prehistory (Basic Books, 2000), and James C. Chatters's Ancient
Encounters: Kennewick Man and the First Americans (Simon and
Schuster, 2001).

None of these authorities, however, argues that these first
peoples comprised an advanced prehistoric civilization, for
which there is no evidence beyond a very few, scattered,
and generally dubious artifacts..

 >http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/island/3634/index2.html

 >for a fine 'amateur' site about the Kensington stone and why
 >both geologic and linguistic evidence appears to be mounting for
 >its authenticity.

The Kensington Rune Stone is a confessed hoax. It began as a
prank by three rural Minnesotans who wanted to show up the
professors. The joke was well known in the local area, where
residents of Kensington and surrounding communities had actually
heard the men responsible boasting about what they planned to
do. The content of the message on the stone (recounting an
alleged massacre by Indians in 1362 of a party of Swedish and
Norwegian explorers) is in part a nearly direct quote of a
Norwegian folk ballad sung by 19th-Century Minnesota immigrants.

Runic scholars, such as (most recently) Jan Bohme of the
University of Stockholm, state flatly, "The whole stone is
modern." Like others before him, Prof. Bohme shows how the
message could only have been written in the late 19th Century,
when the KRS was "discovered." See

http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/archive/1997/08_06/1849-23.html


The best sources on this convoluted pseudomystery are Theodore
C. Blegen's The Kensington Rune Stone: New Light on an Old
Riddle (Minnesota Historical Society, 1968), plus a series of
articles that ran in the journal Minnesota History in 1976 and
1977 as confessions by participants or those close to them came
to light.

The KRS saga is an intensely interesting story, but not because
it tells us anything to do with pre-Columbian Scandinavian
explorers of the Upper Midwest.


Jerry Clark









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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:07:30 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak


 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:35:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' [Was 'Roswell UFO Bombshell']
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >It so haps that the soon forthcoming The Anomalist 10 has an
 >article by Martin Kottmeyer entitled, you guessed it, "Little
 >Green Men."

 >Naturally, I wouldn't want to give the store away, but Kottmeyer
 >does have the following paragraph:

 >"What about comics? Starting in April 1950, Eagle comics
 >presented an adventure of Dan Dare that involved a short green
 >alien named Mekon. We can doubt its relevance to starting the
 >expression on several grounds. Mekon was a seriously villainous
 >character and not likely to invite frivolity. Though he was
 >short, the race he ruled, the Treens was as tall or taller than
 >humans. Thus the little green man was singular and not plural.
 >Last, my understanding is that Eagle wasn't distributed in
 >America and there seems no evidence that the little green men
 >expression started in Britain."

 >Etc. Not much in the way of LGM in comics earlier, which is not
 >to say that Kottmeyer turned every stone over in his quest, but
 >a goodly number of them nonetheless.

Dennis,

If you go to my original LGM post, you'll find all sorts of Web
links showing U.S. comics from the 1930's and 1940's with green
space aliens. The depiction of aliens as green, humanoid and
otherwise, was quite common. Take a look at just one of these
links showing a comic book cover from around 1930 of Buck Rogers
battling green space men on Jupiter:

http://www.redboots.net/comics/other_heroes.htm

The aliens are not only green, they are very humanoid, and some
appear to be drawn smaller than Buck Rogers as he blasts away at
them. That's just one early example. Look at the other links and
you'll see some more examples of early green aliens. The very
popular Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon comics from the 1930s were
followed by the pulp comic books of the 1940s.

On what basis do you maintain that there wasn't much in the way
of LGM's prior to the British comics of 1950? It doesn't look
like Kottmeyer turned over very many stones. I just barely
scratched the surface myself with a Web browser and an hour of
time. It would require a very thorough review of the U.S. pop
culture back then to say anything definitive.

 >Depending on which Roswell author you cite, Brazel raised the
 >LGM remark independently, or in response to a question by Frank
 >Joyce. There may even be another version or two floating
around. >In any event, it appears that LGM was hardly in common
usage in >1947.

The story comes from Joyce. For those not in the know, Frank
Joyce was a radio announcer in Roswell. When Brazel first came
to town to announce his discovery, Joyce claims he spoke to him
on the phone. After everything blew up, the base put out it's
recovered disk story, Ramey debunked it as a weather balloon,
Brazel was taken to be interviewed and put out his own balloon
story, then retracted it at the end, etc., Brazel went to see
Joyce at the radio station.

According to Joyce, Brazel at first recited his new balloon
story. When Joyce challenged it, saying it was different from
what Brazel had originally told him, Joyce claims Brazel told
him that the military had forced him to change the story, and
Joyce would be wise to go along with it. Then as Brazel turned
to leave, Joyce claims he pressed Brazel some more, saying
something to the effect of, "What about the part of the little
green men?" To this Brazel tersely replied before finally
leaving, "They weren't green."

Joyce's LGM story was always a little puzzling. Even assuming
this took place and Joyce recounted it more-or-less correctly,
where and when did Brazel learn of bodies, little or otherwise?
For years Joyce refused to say what it was Brazel originally
told him in his first phone discussion, but in the past few
years he has claimed that in addition to the large debris field,
Brazel told him of finding horrific smelling small bodies that
weren't human. Joyce says he didn't believe Brazel, but
nonetheless suggested he contact the base.

Even assuming these conversations took place, did the term
"green men" or "little green men" ever enter into it? Maybe the
conversations mentioned small bodies but "green" was never a
part of it.

BTW, were there bodies? The Ramey teletype clutched in Ramey's
hand mentions "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK" being "forwarded" to
Fort Worth. So yes, there is now objective, documentary evidence
that bodies were found. It's no longer just 50-year-old
memories.

Do you suppose Gen. Ramey was discussing crash dummies from the
future?


David Rudiak









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                      Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:24:17 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:02:07 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:27:54 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >So, the question really becomes, if Mack Brazel did see bodies,
 >where did he see them? Surely the military wouldn't have
 >revealed them to Brazel, if he didn't already know about them.
 >This might render all this discussion about little green men
 >moot.

The only scenario I can think of that would allow for Brazel
seeing bodies would be if Brazel was flown up in a plane to help
locate the impact site.  But, assuming there _was_ an mpact
site, why would the military need Brazel's "expertise"?

The best answer, to my mind, is that Joyce's colorful (pun
intended) story of dead alien bodies is incorrect.

Dave Rudiak mentioned the interpretation of the Ramey memo as
"VICTIMS OF THE WRECK."  A more accurate translation of the memo
is "VICTIMS OF THE MAJOR."

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com










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                     Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:48:29 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:16:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Randle


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600


 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700

 >>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Wendy,

 >>Once again Karl Pflock, like the proverbial child, stirs the pot
 >>regarding the Roswell incident. Not unusual for a former CIA
 >>spook to do such a thing.

 >I think that reasonable people can disagree about what did or
 >not happen at Roswell in July 1947. Though often exasperating,
 >the debate has been good for all of us, helping to clarify
 >issues and hold proponents of the various perspectives to
 >rational and evidential standards which might otherwise go by
 >the board.

 >It does us no good and only harm, however, to drag in the sort
 >of innuendo above. I am not holding you uniquely responsible, of
 >course; I see this sort of thing all the time from all sorts of
 >people. I've been at the receiving end myself, more than once,
 >of charges of being a cover-up agent. In a particularly
 >memorable moment, I was identified as such by no less than
 >channeled extraterrestrials.

Jerry, List, all -

I think you missed the point here, Jerry. Wendy was not
suggesting that we reject Karl's analysis because he is a former
CIA agent (self- admitted) but that there are those out there
who would make just such an argument as an easy way to dismiss
Karl's work. By pointing to Karl's background, there are those
who would suggest that Karl's work was a response to what his
bosses have ordered him to do. I think she was saying that we
all have this sort of baggage (remember, Kevin Randle writes
science fiction and he was an Air Force intelligence officer)
and that it is not a fair argument to bring this up rather than
discussing rationally the information.


KRandle









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                         MJ-12's First Annual Report

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:32:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:32:06 -0500
Subject: MJ-12's First Annual Report

http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/mj12_redbook.htm

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

The Red Book

Below are three links to Bob and Ryan Wood's Majestic Web Site.
These links make up the MJTWELVE 1st Annual Report, published in
51or 52. Please note that for some strange reason the report was
separated into a "cover page", a "table of contents" and the
remaining part into what they called the "fifth annual report."
Why this was done we were told is that some of the listed Panel
Members were not in those positions in 1951 or 52.  But , it has
been and still is the case that consulting members are often
called back for their advice and listed accordingly.  All our
sources (which we consider to be extremely reliable) say the
pages should of never been separated and that the report is in
fact authentic. Forensic test done by experts hired by the Woods
also suggest this. This 1st Annual Report is the first in a
series of Annual Reports written and eventually combined into
what was called "THE RED BOOK." For the "YELLOW BOOK" please see
The Yellow Book Synopsis Report.

Note: These pdf pages take anywhere from a minute to 6 minutes
loading depending on your connection speed.

1) http://209.132.68.98/documents/pdf/mj12_annualreportcover.pdf

"The aforementioned panel under the direct presidential
directive signed on 26 September 1947, has been tasked with
responsibility of providing answers to a most troublesome and
disturbing phenomena, that of other-world visitation and what it
portends for the human family. It is in this vein that the panel
has addressed the problem and in providing possible answers."

2) http://209.132.68.98/documents/pdf/mj12_toc.pdf

3) http://209.132.68.98/documents/pdf/mj12_fifthannualreport.pdf


Copyright 2001 by Robert Collins

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/












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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:26:33 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:29:30 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak


 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:24:17 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The best answer, to my mind, is that Joyce's colorful (pun
 >intended) story of dead alien bodies is incorrect.

 >Dave Rudiak mentioned the interpretation of the Ramey memo as
 >"VICTIMS OF THE WRECK." A more accurate translation of the memo
 >is "VICTIMS OF THE MAJOR."

How is it more "accurate?" "VICTIMS OF THE MAJOR" doesn't make
sense in any context. Did somebody like Major Marcel victimize
people do the point that they needed to be "FORWARDED" ...."TO
FORT WORTH"?

On the other hand, "WRECKS" do produce "VICTIMS" or casualties.
If there was something very unusual about these victims, they
might require shipment to higher headquarters (Fort Worth)
instead of being dealt with locally.

Context is vital in disambiguating all sorts of things, not just
the Ramey memo. "Victims of the wreck" makes sense; "victims of
the major" does not.

However one wants to interpret this, there were indeed
"VICTIMS," and Joyce's story, colorful or not, is one of several
of bodies being recovered. Given the definite mention of bodies
in the Ramey telegram, some of these witnesses must be telling
the truth even if others were not.

Looks like we're back to the original Roswell thread instead of
little green men.


David Rudiak








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                               New Year Agenda

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:31:47 -0500
Subject: New Year Agenda


The issue of Roswell (or for UFOs as possible visitors from
elsewhere) will not be solved by cynicism, prematurely assuming
you have all the answers, and digging in of heels. In saying
this, I particularly have in mind the recent cynical comments by
Dennis Stacy and the presumptuous and condescending remarks of
Karl Pflock, whose adoption of Jim Moseley as his "standard" of
serious UFO research tells us all we need to know about him. The
Roswell incident (or incidents) has been beclouded by a clash of
giant egos, the moral equivalent of "disinformation" (phony
witnesses, dishonest activities driven by something other than
an objective search for the truth), and by skeptibunker
propaganda ploys that would make Joseph Goebbels look like a
rank amateur.

The only way to arrive at a meaningful conclusion about Roswell
(and UFOs as visitors from elsewhere) is to thoroughly
investigate all leads (quite a few central witnesses remain to
be questioned on the record), expose hoaxes or false
information, and to continue the search for historical
documentation or the lack thereof. To assume that the final
answer has been established is totally unjustified.

Unlike some of the armchair pundits, I have talked with Walter
Haut, viewed his videotaped testimony about bodies (which Pflock
cynically writes off as "false memory"), met and talked with
members of Sheriff Wilcox's family, etc. Among the more
honorable Roswell researchers has been Kevin Randle, who (like
all of us) was surprised to learn that his colleague Don Schmitt
was somewhat ethically deprived (as is Pflock when it comes to
purloined tapes). Randle immediately acknowledged the problem
and proceeded to set the record straight, taking great pains to
repair the damage. I will not at present go into further detail,
except to say that Randle has acted very honorably in this
matter and has continued to do important research in a careful
and objective manner. Pflock, by contrast, has been on the cusp
of debunking all along and his Roswell book apparently could
only be published by the "CSICOP Press." That also tells us
something very important. In the CSICOP view, we know in advance
that it can't be true; therefore no further investigation is
necessary.

Pflock's glib write-off of Pappy Henderson's testimony, and that
of Haut and the Wilcox family, is another indication of a
totally made-up mind, if not deliberate disinformation, which
Jerry Clark does not like to even consider as an alternative.
(Don't get me wrong; I love Jerry Clark and consider him to be
the peerless historian of ufology and one of its best informed
and most articulate commentators. It's just that he and I
disagree on possible real 'conspiracies' or deliberate efforts
to confuse the issues.)

It all comes down to that marvelous psychology concept of
"Tolerance for ambiguity." I see enough smoke about Roswell to
suspect an underlying conflagration, and we won't know for sure
one way or the other with out a lot more careful, thorough,
objective investigation by people without obvious axes to grind
or track records of game-playing. I am willing to wait it out
and to hope for new findings that will shed light on the issues.
Unlike the skeptibunkers, I do not feel compelled to assert
final answers until more can be learned by following up on the
many loose ends.









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:34:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700

 >>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Jerry,

What I am saying is:

1. Karl Pflock claims, among others, that Walter Haut is not a
credible witness to the events surrounding the Roswell incident.

2. Karl Pflock uses his idea that Walter Haut is (paraphrased):
"widowed, in poor health and a member of the IUFOMRC," as a
valid reason that Mr. Haut's credibility should not be
considered by anyone reading UFO UpDates.

3. Wendy Connors claims that Karl Pflock's reasoning is
absolutely bogus and as far from ethical research as possible.

4. Wendy Connors shows that Karl Pflock's reasoning is not
credible since she points out that Pflock's silliness and
illogical reasoning can just as well apply to his own
credibility because he is "old," etc.

In other words, Wendy Connors is saying to the UFO UpDates
readership that, in her opinion, she believes Karl Pflock uses
the sleaziest and weaseliest rationality for just about anything
he spouts regarding Roswell, or Ufology in general. Mr. Pflock's
exerburance to be right at all costs is a disservice to the UFO
Updates readership.

That's what I was saying and I stand behind what I said.

Wendy Connors









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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:46:06 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:09:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700

<snip>

 >What I am saying is:

 >1. Karl Pflock claims, among others, that Walter Haut is not a
 >credible witness to the events surrounding the Roswell incident.

After years in which Mr. Haut could have divulged his claim to
have seen bodies, he never did. That he is only now mentioning
some sort of involvement with bodies--after vocally denying any
sort of firsthand involvement (except drafting the notorious
press release)--mitigates against his credibility.

Pflock doesn't discount Haut's involvement with the Roswell
events as they have been established, and doesn't claim that he
is not a credible witness to aspects of whatever happened in
July, 1947.

But Haut's claim to have seen bodies is certainly incredible, if
nothing else, and deserves to be taken with serious skepticism.

 >2. Karl Pflock uses his idea that Walter Haut is (paraphrased):
 >"widowed, in poor health and a member of the IUFOMRC," as a
 >valid reason that Mr. Haut's credibility should not be
 >considered by anyone reading UFO UpDates.

All Pflock has done is make us (rightfully) reconsider what Haut
is telling us. Glenn Dennis is a member of the IUFOMRC and he is
lying. Haut's close affilition with the IUFOMRC and Dennis
naturally leads one to wonder just how particular this
organization is with what constitutes historical truth.

 >3. Wendy Connors claims that Karl Pflock's reasoning is
 >absolutely bogus and as far from ethical research as possible.

That's certainly your right, but I have to disagree. Pflock is
neither indulging in inept debunkery nor character
assassination; he is simply addressing a testimonial anomaly.
Liking or not liking the implications of what the testimony
tells us has nothing to do with Pflock's intentions.

 >4. Wendy Connors shows that Karl Pflock's reasoning is not
 >credible since she points out that Pflock's silliness and
 >illogical reasoning can just as well apply to his own
 >credibility because he is "old," etc.

 >In other words, Wendy Connors is saying to the UFO UpDates
 >readership that, in her opinion, she believes Karl Pflock uses
 >the sleaziest and weaseliest rationality for just about anything
 >he spouts regarding Roswell, or Ufology in general. Mr. Pflock's
 >exerburance to be right at all costs is a disservice to the UFO
 >Updates readership.

Pflock's insights into the Roswell event are among the most
valuable this List has seen, in my opinion. Implying that Pflock
is "sleazy" because you don't like the story he addresses is,
well, sleazy.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                      Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:56:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:11:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Tonnies


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:26:33 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >However one wants to interpret this, there were indeed
 >"VICTIMS," and Joyce's story, colorful or not, is one of several
 >of bodies being recovered.

The context of the word "VICTIMS/MAJOR" is tenuous at best--and
even more so when one takes into account the highly abbreviated,
often ungrammatical nature of known teletypes dating from 1947.

 >Given the definite mention of bodies in the Ramey telegram,

Not "bodies" - "victims". Who's talking bodies? "Victims" is
delightfully vague. If there is one thing the Ramey memo isn't,
it's 'definite'.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:20:31 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:14:07 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Gates


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:59:38 -0800

 >>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:51:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>There's a residue of intriguing speculation and comments on the
 >>'bodies', but not one source I'd bet my life on. Personally, I
 >>find Sarbacher's 'scuttlebut' about insect-like aliens more
 >>compelling than the so-called first-hand witnesses' testimony.

 >Mac, EBK, and listers,

 >Season's greetings.

 >I might remind you that we do have another possible witness: the
 >MP.

Alleged witness is a better description. Ed, did you happen to
get enough information about the dude to send a request to the
National Personel Records Center to see if in fact a copy of his
military record is available? Most people don't even try and
rely on the fact that the 73' Fire destroyed all records, which
it did not.

His records would be a useful contribution to verifying his
tale, i.e. he was in fact stationed in Roswell, etc etc.

Also what his unit was. You can get unit historys and verify
that he in fact appears in the unit history records.

If this story is only being taken on the basis of "Well so and
so said, and I really trust him because he sounded sincere..." I
would remind list members of the tales and storys about mass
landings in the Desert SW that was supposed to take place on
April 24th 1997, the dude who maintained that ET radio waves
would "bathe the earth on January 24 1997 and that would begin a
new day for humanity" and so forth. Point being is people
actually believed and trusted these people.

 >This person contacted me about two years ago and described in
 >detail what he witnessed on the early morning hours of July 4th,
 >1947. He saw alien bodies with six fingers who looked like the
 >creatures in the AA footage.

 >I know this person's name, rank where he lives, but I'm not
 >free to divulge this information. I believe he's telling the
 >truth, but I have no proof. He was a member of this List; he
 >still may be. I sure wish he'd contact me again. Our
 >correspondence stopped abruptly over a year and a half ago;
 >I've tried to reach him many times, but have been unsuccessful
 >so far.

There may be a reason (good or bad) why he doesn't want anybody
to know anything about him

Cheers,

Robert










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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:21:43 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:07:30 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Dennis,

 >If you go to my original LGM post, you'll find all sorts of Web
 >links showing U.S. comics from the 1930's and 1940's with green
 >space aliens. The depiction of aliens as green, humanoid and
 >otherwise, was quite common. Take a look at just one of these
 >links showing a comic book cover from around 1930 of Buck Rogers
 >battling green space men on Jupiter:

 >http://www.redboots.net/comics/other_heroes.htm

 >The aliens are not only green, they are very humanoid, and some
 >appear to be drawn smaller than Buck Rogers as he blasts away at
 >them. That's just one early example. Look at the other links and
 >you'll see some more examples of early green aliens. The very
 >popular Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon comics from the 1930s were
 >followed by the pulp comic books of the 1940s.

 >On what basis do you maintain that there wasn't much in the way
 >of LGM's prior to the British comics of 1950? It doesn't look
 >like Kottmeyer turned over very many stones. I just barely
 >scratched the surface myself with a Web browser and an hour of
 >time. It would require a very thorough review of the U.S. pop
 >culture back then to say anything definitive.


David,

Thanks for posting the above link again. I'll pass it along to
Kottmeyer. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's premature to
assess his article w/o having read it in its entirety, based on
a single paragraph that I quoted.

But to summarize, the point is not whether or when green
'others' were first portrayed (Kottmeyer cites numerous
instances of same himself), but when same became accepted as
common currency for flying saucer occupants. When, in other
words, did LGM reach the tipping point, as it were?

We don't have the same problem, for example, with 'flying
saucer'. Its coinage and adoption can be pretty precisely
determined as the summer of 1947. It doesn't matter if one can
go back and find precedents in sci-fi pulps and other instances
of popular culture; what matters is when the phrase became
common. If you said you'd seen a flying saucer in 1945, for
example, the other person would probably ask for an explanation.
But if you said it in 1949, he or she would 'know' exactly what
you were talking about.

Aliens were portrayed as all sorts of colors, shapes, and sizes
prior to what we think of as the UFO phenomenon. The question
remains: why and when did LGM become _the_ commonly accepted
reference to same? If it were a simple matter, people wouldn't
still be writing articles about it.

 >>Depending on which Roswell author you cite, Brazel raised the
 >>LGM remark independently, or in response to a question by Frank
 >>Joyce. There may even be another version or two floating
 >>around. In any event, it appears that LGM was hardly in common
 >>usage in 1947.

 >The story comes from Joyce. For those not in the know, Frank
 >Joyce was a radio announcer in Roswell. When Brazel first came
 >to town to announce his discovery, Joyce claims he spoke to him
 >on the phone. After everything blew up, the base put out it's
 >recovered disk story, Ramey debunked it as a weather balloon,
 >Brazel was taken to be interviewed and put out his own balloon
 >story, then retracted it at the end, etc., Brazel went to see
 >Joyce at the radio station.

 >According to Joyce, Brazel at first recited his new balloon
 >story. When Joyce challenged it, saying it was different from
 >what Brazel had originally told him, Joyce claims Brazel told
 >him that the military had forced him to change the story, and
 >Joyce would be wise to go along with it. Then as Brazel turned
 >to leave, Joyce claims he pressed Brazel some more, saying
 >something to the effect of, "What about the part of the little
 >green men?" To this Brazel tersely replied before finally
 >leaving, "They weren't green."

 >Joyce's LGM story was always a little puzzling. Even assuming
 >this took place and Joyce recounted it more-or-less correctly,
 >where and when did Brazel learn of bodies, little or otherwise?
 >For years Joyce refused to say what it was Brazel originally
 >told him in his first phone discussion, but in the past few
 >years he has claimed that in addition to the large debris field,
 >Brazel told him of finding horrific smelling small bodies that
 >weren't human. Joyce says he didn't believe Brazel, but
 >nonetheless suggested he contact the base.

 >Even assuming these conversations took place, did the term
 >"green men" or "little green men" ever enter into it? Maybe the
 >conversations mentioned small bodies but "green" was never a
 >part of it.

In fact, there are about three different versions of this
conversation floating about. Though if Brazel had indeed found
bodies on the Foster ranch, one would think he would have beat
it into town immediately and that the presence of bodies would
have been the *first* - not the last - thing he would have
mentioned. Ditto Marcel, etc.

 >BTW, were there bodies? The Ramey teletype clutched in Ramey's
 >hand mentions "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK" being "forwarded" to
 >Fort Worth. So yes, there is now objective, documentary evidence
 >that bodies were found. It's no longer just 50-year-old
 >memories.

 >Do you suppose Gen. Ramey was discussing crash dummies from the
 >future?

 >David Rudiak

I've always wondered about that. Is it being clutched or just
clasped?

Dennis Stacy








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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:23:48 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600

 >Jerry,

 >What I am saying is:

 >1. Karl Pflock claims, among others, that Walter Haut is not a
 >credible witness to the events surrounding the Roswell incident.

 >2. Karl Pflock uses his idea that Walter Haut is (paraphrased):
 >"widowed, in poor health and a member of the IUFOMRC," as a
 >valid reason that Mr. Haut's credibility should not be
 >considered by anyone reading UFO UpDates.

 >3. Wendy Connors claims that Karl Pflock's reasoning is
 >absolutely bogus and as far from ethical research as possible.

<snip>

 >That's what I was saying and I stand behind what I said.

 >Wendy Connors


Wendy,

At the risk of being labeled a Pflockapologist...

It would behoove you to know what you're talking about. I dare
say that Pflock has no quarrel or question whatsoever with
Haut's original, consistent testimony re his involvement with
the Roswell incident.

It's the recent "mutation" - escalation or whatever you prefer
to call it - of same that Pflock has - in my humble opinion
legitimate - problems with.

Apparently, you don't, which is your choice. But that hardly
makes Pflock's assessment of Haut's change of story "as far from
ethical research as possible."

I'd say it's part caution and common sense. Far too many
experiences escalate in the telling and retelling, including the
example Pflock cited of Betty Hill. But maybe you believe
everything Betty Hill has ever said, too.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.


Dennis Stacy









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                    Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 28 Dec 2001 06:12:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:32:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies


I found an example of a retired Air Force Colonel's response to
the Crash Dummy explanation given to the reported alien bodies
found at the Roswell wreckage site. This was posted to the
Skywatch List and UFO UpDates in 1997.

Other than a detailed description of the wreckage of the object
at the Roswell crash site from a credible source, it is the
finding of non-human bodies that makes the Roswell case for an
extraterrestrial origin and a magnet for interest.

-----

Dummies weren't classified, says retired colonel

[The Associated Press]


GRANTS -- A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high
tech crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way
they'd be confused with aliens described in rumors arising from
the Roswell Incident.

Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the
latest Air Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July
1947. The Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air
Force believes crash test dummies used in the 1950s were
mistaken for the rumored 1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO
buffs just got their dates mixed up.

Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project
officer for Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for
four years starting in the 1950s.

He told the Grants newspaper, the Cibola County Beacon, that the
Project High Dive dummies were used to test problems pilots
might encounter with the ejection mechanisms for bailing out of
new generation jet aircraft.

Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to
the Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document issued this
week, 'The Roswell Report: Case Closed.'

But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the
very small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen
in 1947 near Roswell.

'They were testing these things (dummies) to try to protect
grown men. They would never have used (dummies of) children for
such experiments,' he said.

Madson also served at Wright Patterson Air Force Base near
Dayton, Ohio, before coming to Holloman. His wife worked at
Wright Patterson as a secretary in the base medical laboratory,
as well, he said.

Both of them heard serious talk about little green men who had
been brought onto the base and studied secretly, he said.

The subject of aliens never came up at Holloman, however, he
said.

'I think it was a highly kept secret at that time,' he said.

In contrast, there was nothing secret about his dummies, he
said.

'The dummies were not covered up or hidden (when transported),
and there was no security in the dummy drop phase of the
experiments,' he said.

And because the windblown dummies might end up falling just
about anywhere, the Air Force even offered $25 rewards to local
residents around Alamogordo to return the dummies to the base,
he said. They were all stamped with labels identifying them as
Air Force property, Madson said.

-----

Comment: Here is the reference to Little Green Men again.


Bill Hamilton









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                     Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:36:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:00:02 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700

 >>>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Wendy,

 >In other words, Wendy Connors is saying to the UFO UpDates
 >readership that, in her opinion, she believes Karl Pflock uses
 >the sleaziest and weaseliest rationality for just about anything
 >he spouts regarding Roswell, or Ufology in general. Mr. Pflock's
 >exerburance to be right at all costs is a disservice to the UFO
 >Updates readership.

 >That's what I was saying and I stand behind what I said.

As you know, I have the highest regard, respect, and affection
for you and your pioneering efforts in the unraveling of early
UFO history. I take you very seriously.

All I was saying was that it doesn't advance reasoned discourse
to be intimating (if that's what you were doing; Kevin Randle
says he read your words otherwise) that Karl Pflock is a secret
agent on a sinister mission. Your remarks above don't address
that concern, but having expressed it, I will say no more.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark










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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:35:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:04:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Kaeser


 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>That's what I was saying and I stand behind what I said.

 >>Wendy Connors

 >Wendy,

 >At the risk of being labeled a Pflockapologist...

 >It would behoove you to know what you're talking about. I
 >dare say that Pflock has no quarrel or question whatsoever
 >with Haut's original, consistent testimony re his involvement
 >with the Roswell incident.

 >It's the recent "mutation" - escalation or whatever you
 >prefer to call it - of same that Pflock has - in my humble
 >opinion legitimate - problems with.

 >Apparently, you don't, which is your choice. But that hardly
 >makes Pflock's assessment of Haut's change of story "as far
 >from ethical research as possible."

 >I'd say it's part caution and common sense. Far too many
 >experiences escalate in the telling and retelling, including
 >the example Pflock cited of Betty Hill. But maybe you believe
 >everything Betty Hill has ever said, too.

 >Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

 >Dennis Stacy


Would everyone who has come to this discussion with an open mind
that has no pre-conceived notions regarding the Roswell case
please stand up. Someone! Anyone? Okay, so this is more like a
sports event where we stand on the sidelines and cheer our team
to victory.

I believe that name calling is not helpful in this type of
discussion, but I think Wendy's frustration with those who seem
to have entered the discussion to stand on their soap box
promote their opinion as gospel is understandable.

Karl has established his opinion regarding the Roswell incident
(and has long been known to most researchers in the field). I
believe he has worked very hard to back up his contentions in
his new book (which I have, but haven't had time to read). But
if he had any actual proof of his theories we'd have seen that
evidence laid out here and on the nightly news, which I have yet
to see. I have to read his book before I make any comments on it
directly (and probably wouldn't get into that debate anyway).
But, I've seen no reason to believe his theories over those of
Kevin Randle or Stanton Friedman (who have each promoted their
own interpretation of the incident). In the end, it seems to
come down to the beliefs and faith of the reader, and what that
person expects to get out of the book.

As far as Walter Haut is concerned, the fact that his story has
changed in the past number of years could have a variety of
reasons. Perhaps age is indeed a factor here, or perhaps he has
decided to express a secret that he has maintained for years
(hoping to one day come clean when the facts of the incident are
proven by other research and fear of prosecution was minimized).
It comes as no surprise that his inconsistency and age have been
questioned, and the threat of his becoming hounded by
researchers and others has apparently caused him to retreat from
further discussion of the matter. Karl is certainly pointing out
factors in this that should be considered, but that shouldn't be
confused with proof.

In science one isn't required to prove the negative, which means
that anyone who has to prove the existence of alien space craft
has to prove the case with evidence at hand. Those who are
skeptical aren't required to prove that they don't exist.
However, this is an historical discussion, not scientific.
Anyone attempting to establish historical facts is required to
prove their case, and otherwise one is left with theories and
allegations.

I hope everyone has a safe New Year,

Steve










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                   SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:32:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:15:49 -0500
Subject: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods


...Listened to Errol's year end SDI wrap up of 2001* with the
usually much appreciated Mr. M.J.Woods via VSN, and was
respectfully disappointed with the cant of the entire segment. I
would suggest that Mr. Woods let the ninth month color his
entire summation and that he was needlessly cynical with regard
to more than a few of the year's events. Further, I think that
he has attached excessive importance where a suspicious
mainstream has indicated we should attach importance, and that
he has lost, momentarily, a journalistic wide-view required for
that position - _forgetting_ an ethical responsibility of that
profession to give equal time to both sides.

Initially, Mr. Woods distanced himself from the subject of UFOs
in a manner indicating it was way off his personal radar at this
point in time. ...Nothing wrong with that, necessarily, but as a
"favorite mouth" of an operation impassioned by ufological study
and sporting 'UFO GUY' vanity plates on a wide, white
convertible, I would not think it unreasonable to display a
little more interest than the grudging and distracted
association he implied.

The preceding paragraph is supported by Mr. Wood's assessment of
features recently discovered on Mars: "Gotta tell 'ya... that's
not natural..." screams for a journalistic "HEY! Wait a
minute!!!", not (effectively) forthcoming from anywhere. Truly,
there was a lot of stuff to talk about this year that went
begging in overtly sarcastic predilections of harshly casual
dismissal regarding some positive efforts that _were_ made this
year, though the less than complimentary assessment of
contributions from Rupert Murdock and Fox-sNooze were spot on.

Lara Johnstone? I was personally offended that Mr. Wood was
"personally offended" by an "on again, off again" perception of
that whole affair. That unsupported allegation is made out of
whole cloth by her officious, patronizing, and inconsistent
detractors and other insouciant armchair critics. She was quite
clear, from the beginning, what her process was; she was crystal
clear regarding her agenda (rare flower that!), and she was more
than abundantly clear about what had motivated her. More
personally offending, perhaps, should be the reflexively broken
and profoundly specious promises of a campaigning politician she
exposed (again) that looks every one of us in the eye to report
easy lies rolling too handily off of an inexpertly flapping
tongue!

There _was_ a positive side to the coin of that story! Proudly,
I reported it myself. She tried to get grassroots interest in an
investigation all the rest of us only pay lip service to. She
did it creatively, positively, and non-violently. Moreover, this
was not an action taken without personal cost.....

It doesn't _get_ any better than that. "Dieting for Disclosure",
"Baloney on alternate Tuesdays," and "An exceptional waste of
bandwidth," provided a desultory cant to the report that seemed
inappropriate to the implied expansive mission of SDI, VSN and
UFO UpDates.

Moving on, Mr. Woods feels that it is "proper" and therefore
appropriate to "sideline the disclosure process" as a result of
events in September -- events regrettable on MANY levels ...and
boy... does that play into the hands of the non-elected
government of traditional deceit, or what? He feels that "we
have other issues to work out..." and that these suddenly
revealed issues preclude our justified interest in a fabric of
lies, conspiracy, and deceit so encompassing that the details of
them can hardly even BE disclosed. How _is_ it that a "proper
disinterest" in the ongoing aggregate obfuscation will help us
to resolve ANY of these "new" issues? What is the strange
mechanism of that process? Does Mr. Woods suggest here that he
is only in for the penny, but not for the ufological pound? How
is the single most important news initiative of our recorded
history able to be sidelined at all?

Moreover, "patient observation, accumulation of data" and
scientific research" are still, after 50 years, no closer to
disclosure actuality than they were 50 years ago. This is
perhaps because patience is not rewarded, observation is
discouraged, and data accumulation is reflexively ridiculed or
sold to data hoarders. Additionally, Mr. Woods intimates that
there is quality research possible in a repressively reactionary
and traditional scientific institutions of knee jerk dismissal,
administration by derision, and absent dollars, and that an
untested faith in this jealously worshiped and adjourning
pseudo-science will eventually see the light of disclosure's
day... how? When?

It's not science, at ALL, until it goes where the data goes, and
where the data _goes_ is crystalline! Ruppelt, Hynek, and
Vallee are abundantly clear on this. Generations of subsequent
researchers are clear on this. UFOs deserve top quality
investigation that is just not forthcoming in Mr. Woods' current
rose colored and optimistic expectations regarding mainstream
science. So, say what you want about Johnstone and Sheehan
(forget Greer), but she would take some _action_ (however
impotent, ineffective, or naive), and _he_ has had RESULTS (or
John Mack would be discredited and disposed, Oliver North would
be guileless and guiltless, and we never would have found out
who had Karen Silkwood murdered... among other equally unlikely
successes...).

Regarding "speakers that are provocative and then surprised when
people are provoked..." There is much that is provocative and an
abundance of people to be justly or unjustly provoked, but there
is much more "beneath contempt" than the almost universally (and
perhaps even righteously) detested Dr. Greer and his frank
admonition that the events of September 11th might have been
precluded by a more timely ufological disclosure. I don't think
that Greer's admonition is that far off the mark, requires
little stretch in the covering, and I wrote, early on, the exact
same thing on UpDates, months ago. In fact, I think Greer copped
the thought from _me_.

I consider it regrettably inaccurate that Mr. Woods feels "the
linkage to be offensive," and the "notion to be ludicrous," even
IF Dr. Greer _can_ "be found to be dismissible."  My take is
that if we knew that we were being observed from space by
intelligent beings we'd clean up our entire cultural act,
toot-sweet. People don't commit crimes when they know they're
being observed. This includes running loaded passenger craft
into sky scrapers and any process, philosophy, or real-politick
that might have helped precipitate that egregious act. Moreover,
if Mr. Wood can wonder if StarWars is a clandestine preparation
for a real life "game of space invaders", how far off the mark
can he think Dr. Greer really is?

In closing, as regards Mr. Woods hoped for pleasant demeanor
regarding an all but certain visitor from beyond our
increasingly more polluted atmosphere, we can only hope that
they are better than we are, have been, and continue to be.
Lastly - I hope Mr. Woods has a much needed ufological epiphany
in the coming months, and that next year's wrap-up will be more
balanced, less judgmental, and more evenly canted than his
distressing, depressing, and disappointing wrap-up for 2001.
Read on.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.

* www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/ --ebk










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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:48:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:24:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:36:44 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Clark

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700


 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell - Clark
 >>>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:41:21 -0600

 >>>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Bombshell
 >>>>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:48:13 -0700

 >>>>>From: Karl Pflock < Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:41:41 EST
 >>>>>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Jerry,

I know you appreciate my work, etc. We have been friends for a
long time, gaffed down booze together, lamented the folibles of
Ufology, etc.

My objections to Mr. Pflock's opinion regarding Mr. Haut and
others is the methodology he used in conveying it. He uses guilt
by association and other nefarious skeptibunkering folderol that
have nothing to do with ethical research or sound conclusions.

So, one more time. My original posting was nothing more than
using the same technique Mr. Pflock used to show or imply that
Mr. Haut, Mr. Wilcox and Mr. Henderson were not credible. I used
Mr. Pflock's own technique to illustrate that Mr. Pflock's
credibility can be questioned in the same vein. Thus, the method
Mr. Pflock was using was bogus and the UFO Update members were
shown that it was.

The oral history of Mr. Haut contains not only his
recollections, but the reason why he has refrained from
disclosure. His reasons are sound and credible. Just because I
won't publicly disclose his oral history until he has passed on
is not a valid basis for attacking his credibility, because Mr.
Pflock is reaching conclusions not based upon knowledge or
documentation.

Mr. Pflock knew of the oral history, but became rabid when I
would not share same with him. He was concerned only because of
the impact it could have on his book. As a matter of fact, he
became so incensed over my refusal to allow him to view the oral
history, that he went on a private list rampage that bordered on
defaming Mr. Haut. At that point I removed my association with
Mr. Pflock and his ranting and raving. I told him never again to
come to my home, call me or email me. Yes, Jerry, there is the
"public" Mr. Pflock and the Mr. Pflock behind the door. I
personally advise, from experience, guarding your research as
tightly as possible when Mr. Pflock comes a knock'n at your
door.

Personally, I don't care what Mr. Pflock believes. I personally
consider him irrelevant in the field of crypto-aeronautic
studies and in my personal opinion, so should the thinking
members of UFO UpDates. To be fair, he did a good job on
researching the Mogul Balloon project, but nothing more.


Wendy









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                Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:04:21 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:26:49 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods -


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:32:56 -0600


 >...Listened to Errol's year end SDI wrap up of 2001* with the
 >usually much appreciated Mr. M.J.Woods via VSN, and was
 >respectfully disappointed with the cant of the entire segment. I
 >would suggest that Mr. Woods let the ninth month color his
 >entire summation and that he was needlessly cynical with regard
 >to more than a few of the year's events. Further, I think that
 >he has attached excessive importance where a suspicious
 >mainstream has indicated we should attach importance, and that
 >he has lost, momentarily, a journalistic wide-view required for
 >that position - _forgetting_ an ethical responsibility of that
 >profession to give equal time to both sides.

 >Initially, Mr. Woods distanced himself from the subject of UFOs
 >in a manner indicating it was way off his personal radar at this
 >point in time. ...Nothing wrong with that, necessarily, but as a
 >"favorite mouth" of an operation impassioned by ufological study
 >and sporting 'UFO GUY' vanity plates on a wide, white
 >convertible, I would not think it unreasonable to display a
 >little more interest than the grudging and distracted
 >association he implied.

 >The preceding paragraph is supported by Mr. Wood's assessment of
 >features recently discovered on Mars: "Gotta tell 'ya... that's
 >not natural..." screams for a journalistic "HEY! Wait a
 >minute!!!", not (effectively) forthcoming from anywhere. Truly,
 >there was a lot of stuff to talk about this year that went
 >begging in overtly sarcastic predilections of harshly casual
 >dismissal regarding some positive efforts that _were_ made this
 >year, though the less than complimentary assessment of
 >contributions from Rupert Murdock and Fox-sNooze were spot on.

 >Lara Johnstone? I was personally offended that Mr. Wood was
 >"personally offended" by an "on again, off again" perception of
 >that whole affair. That unsupported allegation is made out of
 >whole cloth by her officious, patronizing, and inconsistent
 >detractors and other insouciant armchair critics. She was quite
 >clear, from the beginning, what her process was; she was crystal
 >clear regarding her agenda (rare flower that!), and she was more
 >than abundantly clear about what had motivated her. More
 >personally offending, perhaps, should be the reflexively broken
 >and profoundly specious promises of a campaigning politician she
 >exposed (again) that looks every one of us in the eye to report
 >easy lies rolling too handily off of an inexpertly flapping
 >tongue!

 >There _was_ a positive side to the coin of that story! Proudly,
 >I reported it myself. She tried to get grassroots interest in an
 >investigation all the rest of us only pay lip service to. She
 >did it creatively, positively, and non-violently. Moreover, this
 >was not an action taken without personal cost.....

 >It doesn't _get_ any better than that. "Dieting for Disclosure",
 >"Baloney on alternate Tuesdays," and "An exceptional waste of
 >bandwidth," provided a desultory cant to the report that seemed
 >inappropriate to the implied expansive mission of SDI, VSN and
 >UFO UpDates.

 >Moving on, Mr. Woods feels that it is "proper" and therefore
 >appropriate to "sideline the disclosure process" as a result of
 >events in September -- events regrettable on MANY levels ...and
 >boy... does that play into the hands of the non-elected
 >government of traditional deceit, or what? He feels that "we
 >have other issues to work out..." and that these suddenly
 >revealed issues preclude our justified interest in a fabric of
 >lies, conspiracy, and deceit so encompassing that the details of
 >them can hardly even BE disclosed. How _is_ it that a "proper
 >disinterest" in the ongoing aggregate obfuscation will help us
 >to resolve ANY of these "new" issues? What is the strange
 >mechanism of that process? Does Mr. Woods suggest here that he
 >is only in for the penny, but not for the ufological pound? How
 >is the single most important news initiative of our recorded
 >history able to be sidelined at all?

 >Moreover, "patient observation, accumulation of data" and
 >scientific research" are still, after 50 years, no closer to
 >disclosure actuality than they were 50 years ago. This is
 >perhaps because patience is not rewarded, observation is
 >discouraged, and data accumulation is reflexively ridiculed or
 >sold to data hoarders. Additionally, Mr. Woods intimates that
 >there is quality research possible in a repressively reactionary
 >and traditional scientific institutions of knee jerk dismissal,
 >administration by derision, and absent dollars, and that an
 >untested faith in this jealously worshiped and adjourning
 >pseudo-science will eventually see the light of disclosure's
 >day... how? When?

 >It's not science, at ALL, until it goes where the data goes, and
 >where the data _goes_ is crystalline! Ruppelt, Hynek, and
 >Vallee are abundantly clear on this. Generations of subsequent
 >researchers are clear on this. UFOs deserve top quality
 >investigation that is just not forthcoming in Mr. Woods' current
 >rose colored and optimistic expectations regarding mainstream
 >science. So, say what you want about Johnstone and Sheehan
 >(forget Greer), but she would take some _action_ (however
 >impotent, ineffective, or naive), and _he_ has had RESULTS (or
 >John Mack would be discredited and disposed, Oliver North would
 >be guileless and guiltless, and we never would have found out
 >who had Karen Silkwood murdered... among other equally unlikely
 >successes...).

 >Regarding "speakers that are provocative and then surprised when
 >people are provoked..." There is much that is provocative and an
 >abundance of people to be justly or unjustly provoked, but there
 >is much more "beneath contempt" than the almost universally (and
 >perhaps even righteously) detested Dr. Greer and his frank
 >admonition that the events of September 11th might have been
 >precluded by a more timely ufological disclosure. I don't think
 >that Greer's admonition is that far off the mark, requires
 >little stretch in the covering, and I wrote, early on, the exact
 >same thing on UpDates, months ago. In fact, I think Greer copped
 >the thought from _me_.

 >I consider it regrettably inaccurate that Mr. Woods feels "the
 >linkage to be offensive," and the "notion to be ludicrous," even
 >IF Dr. Greer _can_ "be found to be dismissible." My take is
 >that if we knew that we were being observed from space by
 >intelligent beings we'd clean up our entire cultural act,
 >toot-sweet. People don't commit crimes when they know they're
 >being observed. This includes running loaded passenger craft
 >into sky scrapers and any process, philosophy, or real-politick
 >that might have helped precipitate that egregious act. Moreover,
 >if Mr. Wood can wonder if StarWars is a clandestine preparation
 >for a real life "game of space invaders", how far off the mark
 >can he think Dr. Greer really is?

 >In closing, as regards Mr. Woods hoped for pleasant demeanor
 >regarding an all but certain visitor from beyond our
 >increasingly more polluted atmosphere, we can only hope that
 >they are better than we are, have been, and continue to be.
 >Lastly - I hope Mr. Woods has a much needed ufological epiphany
 >in the coming months, and that next year's wrap-up will be more
 >balanced, less judgmental, and more evenly canted than his
 >distressing, depressing, and disappointing wrap-up for 2001.
 >Read on.


Dear Alfredo, Listerions, Woody Woods and Errol,

Cheeses, Al, I was gonna write the same thing, use the very same
words too. Alas and a lackey, you beat me to the punch. What a
co-inky-dink, eh? (Eh's galore for them Canahovians). Of course
with a vocabulary like mine (I scored in the upper 50 percentile
in my fourth grade vocabulary test and did a whopping "C" in my
Hooked on Phonics course), anyway, with my vocal blue lorry I
would'a shown yous up. Lucky you got here first.

At satire, I am not the master. Only a prince without portfolio.
But at satirizing satire, I am _the_ mensche di tutti munchies.
And I shall use my own cutting wit, my rapier snapping, biting,
insulting and otherwise horridly degrading commentary with which
to obfuscate the already foggy atmosphere on this list... List.
Say, didn't he write music or sumpin'? Or am I thinking of
someone who talks funny?

Nay, verily I say unto yous, Woody, stick to hummer ... humor,
sorry. I find your commentary filled with more than a glimpse
through the haze of those who hail from a place called Lilly
Putz. These are small people, with small minds and smaller
respect for the opinions of others. Ain't your style, eh? (I am
told that with every "eh" I get another dozen fans in Canahoovia
... I must have at least a dozen by now, eh?)

So, leave the satire to Gesundt, the maiming and ranting to
those who enjoy the sport, the insults to those from whom we
expectorate it .... expect it ... and stick to your previously
marvelous commentary.

Oh, and before I forget, may I call you Woody, Woody?


Morty










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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:39:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:10:23 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Connors


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Stacy

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:10:53 -0700


 >Wendy,

 >At the risk of being labeled a Pflockapologist...

<snip>

 >I'd say it's part caution and common sense. Far too many
 >experiences escalate in the telling and retelling, including the
 >example Pflock cited of Betty Hill. But maybe you believe
 >everything Betty Hill has ever said, too.

 >Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

 >Dennis Stacy


Dennis,

I obviously do know what I am talking about regarding Mr. Haut
and Mr. Pflock. Much more so than Mr. Pflock's "opinions." I did
the oral history and have had personal discussions with Mr. Haut
many times. I also did an on-camera interview with him for
French TV-2. Therefore, what I have expressed regarding Mr.
Pflock's methodology is certainly not in error as it applies to
Mr. Haut's credibility.

What it all boils down to is who ya gonna believe? A man who
writes for "Saucer Smear," or a person who did the interviews
and has the documentation? I really haven't reached a conclusion
regarding the Roswell incident, but I categorically know that
Mr. Haut is a credible, moral and ethical man and as an ethical
researcher, will defend Mr. Haut to my last breath.

I've never met Betty Hill. Why would you assume that I "believe
everything Betty Hill has ever said, too," or even include it in
your remarks? This is a bogus comment. More on the level of
Pflockism.

You're certainly many things, Dennis, but probably not a
"Pflockopologist" A PflockaGroupie, perhaps. Anyway, that's my
take and I'm sticking with it.

Wendy Connors









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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:38:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:16:30 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Clark


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000


Dick,

 >It all comes down to that marvelous psychology concept of
 >"Tolerance for ambiguity." I see enough smoke about Roswell to
 >suspect an underlying conflagration, and we won't know for sure
 >one way or the other with out a lot more careful, thorough,
 >objective investigation by people without obvious axes to grind
 >or track records of game-playing. I am willing to wait it out
 >and to hope for new findings that will shed light on the issues.

I think you're right on target about the need for tolerance of
ambiguity. In fact, I used the same phrase in a private e-mail
to Karl Pflock earlier today. Maybe the hardest thing humans can
do is not to pretend we know more than we know. But if you can't
do that, maybe you ought to pursue something other than ufology.

If ever human beings have bitten off more than they can chew,
it's from that giant carrot otherwise known as the UFO
phenomenon.


Happy New Year,

Jerry Clark












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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:38:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak


 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:07:30 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>On what basis do you maintain that there wasn't much in the way
 >>of LGM's prior to the British comics of 1950? It doesn't look
 >>like Kottmeyer turned over very many stones. I just barely
 >>scratched the surface myself with a Web browser and an hour of
 >>time. It would require a very thorough review of the U.S. pop
 >>culture back then to say anything definitive.

 >David,

 >Thanks for posting the above link again. I'll pass it along to
 >Kottmeyer. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's premature to
 >assess his article w/o having read it in its entirety, based on
 >a single paragraph that I quoted.

Aliens were commonly portrayed as green in the Sunday newspapers
and pulp comics prior to 1947, as my Net search quickly
demonstrated. You represented here that Kottmeyer could find no
such instances prior to a British comic book alien character
from 1950. Then you added that you seriously doubted the term
LGM could date back to 1947. That is what I was responding to.

I don't know what Kottmeyer wrote, but your representation of
the situation was inaccurate.

 >But to summarize, the point is not whether or when green
 >'others' were first portrayed (Kottmeyer cites numerous
 >instances of same himself), but when same became accepted as
 >common currency for flying saucer occupants. When, in other
 >words, did LGM reach the tipping point, as it were?

The point is when they became accepted as a common, put-down
term for aliens, _not_ "flying saucer occupants."

 >We don't have the same problem, for example, with 'flying
 >saucer'. Its coinage and adoption can be pretty precisely
 >determined as the summer of 1947. It doesn't matter if one can
 >go back and find precedents in sci-fi pulps and other instances
 >of popular culture; what matters is when the phrase became
 >common. If you said you'd seen a flying saucer in 1945, for
 >example, the other person would probably ask for an
explanation. >But if you said it in 1949, he or she would 'know'
exactly what >you were talking about.

 >Aliens were portrayed as all sorts of colors, shapes, and sizes
 >prior to what we think of as the UFO phenomenon. The question
 >remains: why and when did LGM become _the_ commonly accepted
 >reference to same?

Right, to portrayal of aliens in general, not specifically
"flying saucer occupants." I'm making an issue of this because
the two are not the same. If LGM was in the oral vernacular
prior to 1947, then it might also be used by people in 1947 to
refer to space aliens in association with the new "flying
saucer" phenomenon.

I've looked at a lot of newspapers from July 1947, but have yet
to see a specific LGM reference. Kevin Randle mentioned a
spoofing column by Hal Boyle about a green alien piloting a
saucer, though not using the term 'LGM'. However, it's a good
indication that the mental imagery of aliens being green was out
there.

I also have an article or two with people toying about the
possibility of the saucers being piloted by "men from Mars."
E.g., the Daily Illini article of July 9, which has provided a
valuable chronology of AP bulletins on the Roswell events, ended
with a statement of relief over the prosaic weather balloon
explanation, saying, "A solution might be more than
embarrassing. It might be calamitous. What if there really were
'men from Mars!'"

 >If it were a simple matter, people wouldn't
 >still be writing articles about it.

Since it's not a simple matter and nobody has nailed it down
yet, then you shouldn't be making blanket statements about the
term LGM not being around in 1947.

 >>>Depending on which Roswell author you cite, Brazel raised the
 >>>LGM remark independently, or in response to a question by Frank
 >>>Joyce. There may even be another version or two floating
 >>>around. In any event, it appears that LGM was hardly in common
 >>>usage in 1947.

<snip>

 >>According to Joyce, Brazel at first recited his new balloon
 >>story. When Joyce challenged it, saying it was different from
 >>what Brazel had originally told him, Joyce claims Brazel told
 >>him that the military had forced him to change the story, and
 >>Joyce would be wise to go along with it. Then as Brazel turned
 >>to leave, Joyce claims he pressed Brazel some more, saying
 >>something to the effect of, "What about the part of the little
 >>green men?" To this Brazel tersely replied before finally
 >>leaving, "They weren't green."

 >>Joyce's LGM story was always a little puzzling. Even assuming
 >>this took place and Joyce recounted it more-or-less correctly,
 >>where and when did Brazel learn of bodies, little or otherwise?
 >>For years Joyce refused to say what it was Brazel originally
 >>told him in his first phone discussion, but in the past few
 >>years he has claimed that in addition to the large debris field,
 >>Brazel told him of finding horrific smelling small bodies that
 >>weren't human. Joyce says he didn't believe Brazel, but
 >>nonetheless suggested he contact the base.

 >>Even assuming these conversations took place, did the term
 >>"green men" or "little green men" ever enter into it? Maybe the
 >>conversations mentioned small bodies but "green" was never a
 >>part of it.

 >In fact, there are about three different versions of this
 >conversation floating about. Though if Brazel had indeed found
 >bodies on the Foster ranch, one would think he would have beat
 >it into town immediately and that the presence of bodies would
 >have been the *first* - not the last - thing he would have
 >mentioned. Ditto Marcel, etc.

There are certainly problems with the story and I have some of
the same questions in my mind as you do. However, conceivably
bodies could have been the very last thing Brazel found, after
first finding the debris. This could be what finally prompted
him to "beat it into town."

As to what exactly Brazel told Sheriff Wilcox and his staff we
don't know. But apparently there was some skepticism over the
story. Wilcox sent out deputies to check out the story.

I have spoken to Joyce recently myself, and he said he had to
coax the part about the bodies out of Brazel when he first spoke
to him. Originally, according to Joyce, Brazel mentioned only
the large quantities of debris, and was upset over the clean-up
involved. Joyce said he could sense there was more and thus
pressed for more details. That's when Brazel in a very agitated
voice allegedly first brought up the subject of small, smelly
bodies, something Joyce himself said he found very hard to
believe.

As to Marcel denying knowledge of bodies in public interviews,
he could have been like Walter Haut. It is only recently that
Haut has mentioned knowing personally of bodies. Of course this
raises the question of why the change of story? It could be that
talking of strange events or debris is one thing, but saying
that there were non-human bodies is quite another. The first is
intriguing but still ambiguous in orgin or implications; the
second, however, is not ambiguous and an open invitation to
intense disbelief and personal attack. There may also be the
sense of having crossed the line and seriously broached an
explicit or implicit security oath. So some may find it better
not to raise the subject or deny personal knowledge when it is
raised.

(Incidentally, I also spoke recently to Walter Haut, who doesn't
know me from a hole in the wall. He would speak to me only in
the vaguest generalities, and I couldn't get him anywhere near
the subject of bodies. It strikes me that this is generally a
taboo subject for Haut.)

My point is that there are psychological and personal
ramifications if somebody were to bring up the issue of nonhuman
bodies. It's a Pandora's box they might prefer not to open if
they can avoid it.

 >>BTW, were there bodies? The Ramey teletype clutched in Ramey's
 >>hand mentions "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK" being "forwarded" to
 >>Fort Worth. So yes, there is now objective, documentary evidence
 >>that bodies were found. It's no longer just 50-year-old
 >>memories.

 >>Do you suppose Gen. Ramey was discussing crash dummies from the
 >>future?

 >>David Rudiak

 >I've always wondered about that. Is it being clutched or just
 >clasped?

 >Dennis Stacy

Dennis, you certainly have a knack for focusing on the
remarkably unimportant.

How about dealing instead with the obvious implications of the
phrase "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO ?????? AT FORT
WORTH, TEX."?


David Rudiak








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               Re: Insights Into T-2 Intelligence & Col. McCoy

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:23:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:42:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Insights Into T-2 Intelligence & Col. McCoy


Wendy Connors and Michael Hall have reviewed the Officer
Military Record jacket for Col. Howard Monroe McCoy, Commanding
General of T-2 Intelligence during Project SIGN. The information
contained in these documents present some interesting
information.

One of the most interesting bits of information concerns ranks
held by Col. McCoy. His DD 13 form shows the following dates of
rank:

2nd Lt.  12 Jun 30
1st Lt.  26 Aug 35
Capt.    17 Jun 40
Major    30 Jun 41
Lt. Col. 24 Jan 42
Major     1 Feb 42
Colonel   1 Mar 42
Lt. Col. 10 Dec 42
Colonel   1 Aug 44
Major    12 Jun 47
Colonel   2 Apr 48

Even more interesting are the chronological record of his
military service involving assignments. To wit:

1 Jan 42 to 27 Apr 43 Ass't Chief Propeller Laboratory

28 Apr 43 to 28 Jan 44 Chief of Propeller Laboratory

29 Jan 44 22 Jun 44 Student

23 Jun 44 to 5 Jul 44 Prep & enroute to European Theater of
Operations

6 Jul 44 to 31 Dec 44 Office Director of Technical Services

1 Jan 45 to 15 Jul 45 Director of Technical Services

16 Jul 45 to 17 Oct 45 A-2 Section (Air Intelligence)

18 Oct 45 30 Jun 46 Chief, Analysis Division & Chief of Air
Documents Division

1 Jul 46 to 14 Oct 47 Acting Deputy Commanding General of T-2
Intelligence

15 Oct 47 to 24 Aug 49 Chief, Intelligence Department*

25 Aug 49 to 13 Jul 50 Student

14 Jul 50 to 9 Mar 51 Air Technical Intelligence Officer at
Headquarters, Central Control Group of the Central Intelligence
Agency*

10 Mar 51 to 24 Jun 52 Director Physical Security Equipment
Agency

25 Jun 52 to 24 Feb  53 Senior Air Force Member, Physical
Security Equipment Agency

1 Jun 53 to 30 Jun 54 Director, Physical Security Equipment
Agency

1 Jul 54 to 2 Aug 54 Intelligence Staff Officer

*IMPORTANT NOTES: McCoy spent from 23 Feb 49 to 18 Apr 49 on TDY
(Temporary Duty Yonder) to the European Theater of Operations.
No indication of his duties while in the ETO. It is interesting
to note that he was in the ETO while Grudge was in play.
Further, it is extremely interesting to note that Col. McCoy,
one month following the Grudge Report, was ATIC Officer with the
Central Control Group of the CIA.

Wendy Connors & Michael Hall








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                        Re: New Year Agenda - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:22:29 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:49:47 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Pflock


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000

<snip>

 >Pflock, by contrast, has been on the cusp
 >of debunking all along and his Roswell book apparently could
 >only be published by the "CSICOP Press." That also tells us
 >something very important. In the CSICOP view, we know in advance
 >that it can't be true; therefore no further investigation is
 >necessary.

Dick, Colleagues, Friends, Enemies et al,

Dick Hall has left something important conveniently unstated
here: The bulk of my early Roswell work was funded by a grant
from the Fund for UFO Research (when Dick Hall was Fund
Chairman). My interim report on my research and findings,
Roswell in Perspective, was published by the Fund in June 1994
(while Hall was still Chairman). It is still being sold by the
Fund. My book 'Roswell: Inconvenient Facts And The Will To
Believe', published by 'CSICOP Press' (aka Prometheus Books),
incorporates, updates, and expands upon the core material in
RiP, with additional material included and all based upon my
work subsequent to RiP's publication.

I am convinced by eight years of intensive, definitely not
armchair research and investigation - much of it underwritten by
the Fund for UFO Research, none of it by CSICOP - that the
essential elements of the truth about what did and did not
happen at and in the general vicinity of Roswell are solidly
established, and that there was no crash-retrieval of a flying
saucer involved, let alone the recovery of the bodies of a
saucer crew, the same being true anywhere else before mid-1955
(and most likely since).

However, make no mistake about it, I remain open to any new
credible, solidly backed-up, carefully vetted, etc., information
to the contrary. If and when such information is brought
forward, I'll be the first to embrace it, and it will require no
prodding for me to declare my error - publicly, loudly, and even
gleefully. For, contrary to Hall's assertion that I've "been on
the cusp of debunking all along", I got involved in the Roswell
mess because I really thought there was a good chance there was
something to it and, like so many others who've been immersed in
this field for so long, had high hopes that 'something' was
physical proof of what I have been subjectively certain of for
many years: we've been visited by beings from another world. I'd
_love_ to be proven wrong about Roswell. Alas, I doubt that's
going to happen.

Best wishes to all for the coming new year - yes, even you, Dick
and Wendy.


-- Cheers, KARL (MJ-SKEPTIBUNKER/NOT!)









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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:26:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:54:41 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Hall


List,

Just to give you a little more idea about the man, as a result
of my December 27 post here, Karl Pflock has privately
threatened me with a lawsuit via e-mail. Birds of a feather
Pflock together: Karl, CSICOP, Klass, Moseley... skeptibunkers,
and the ethicallly challenged in general.


- Dick











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                 Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Hale

From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:04:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:59:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Hale


 >Date: 28 Dec 2001 06:12:27 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies

 >I found an example of a retired Air Force Colonel's response to
 >the Crash Dummy explanation given to the reported alien bodies
 >found at the Roswell wreckage site. This was posted to the
 >Skywatch List and UFO UpDates in 1997.

 >Other than a detailed description of the wreckage of the object
 >at the Roswell crash site from a credible source, it is the
 >finding of non-human bodies that makes the Roswell case for an
 >extraterrestrial origin and a magnet for interest.

 >-----

 >Dummies weren't classified, says retired colonel

 >[The Associated Press]

 >GRANTS -- A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high
 >tech crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way
 >they'd be confused with aliens described in rumors arising from
 >the Roswell Incident.

 >Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the
 >latest Air Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July
 >1947. The Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air
 >Force believes crash test dummies used in the 1950s were
 >mistaken for the rumored 1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO
 >buffs just got their dates mixed up.

 >Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project
 >officer for Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for
 >four years starting in the 1950s.

<snip>

Having seen Lt. Col. Madson's deposition in the 'Roswell: Case
Closed' report I decided I'd give him a phone call and discuss
the report with him. He answered the phone and was very polite
and helpful.

I asked if he felt anything he said had been taken out of
context in the report. His answer was that nothing was directly
taken out of context, but he did make it clear to the officers
doing the report that nobody could be mistaken as to the true
nature of these dummies.

He said, once, during a test at Wright Patterson Air Force Base
one of the dummies fell into the back yard of one of the base
commander's houses. He said at first the General's family was
horrified when they saw what appeared to be a man in a parachute
fall to the ground, but quickly realized it was a 250 pound
mechanical dummy.

So, he said, they basically left out the parts where he
suggested that nobody would really mistake the dummies for
anything living, but that was about it. I also asked him about
anything he may have seen or heard up at Wright Patterson AFB
that he would count as strange or unusual. His response was
something along the lines of he knew the Little Green Men
stories well but that he wouldn't feel comfortable talking about
those, as it might betray some old friends.


Scott Hale








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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #003

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:24:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:55:28 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #003


Alfred's Odd Observation #003 (Saturday, December 29, 2001.)

My enthusiasm's boundless, and I'm soaring through the night in
an early morning cleaving where the lights that move are bright,
when Ursa, slowly rolling like that Gentle bear of lore,
presented one new diamond that then moved across her floor. The
Gem was bright as Sirius, and so slowly did it groove, I'd count
out fifteen seconds - one degree was all it moved. It rolled
just under five degrees, due north I watched it fall, but lost
it to bring glasses to my eyes to watch it crawl...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

It was about 04:15, and I was still high from some great letters
I'd gotten yesterday from people who "got it" and had briefly
celebrated the "getting it" with me in an exchange of some
_very_ satisfying E-mail <metaphoric cigarettes smoked all
around <g>.>... a little slice of heaven... but...
back at the ranch!

...It blinked on, just slightly below the big dipper, and
started (immediately) to move to the north. Movement was so slow
I thought I might be confused by some optical illusion
initially, but no, it moved against the star field, bright as
Sirius, about one degree in fifteen seconds. I watched it move
for four or five degrees, then brought my field glasses to my
eyes to see the obligatory but still anomalous point source of
light (just bigger), when the light disappeared. Not finding it
in my glasses, it was gone, subsequently, for my unaided eyes,
too.

...And did it occur to any other sky watcher out there that Ursa
was female? If not, then where did the "little" bear come from?
<g>.

And so it goes for the intrepid anomalous observer <g>. Read on!
And thanks for the mail!


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







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                   Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:26:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Friedman


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:35:06 -0500

 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>>That's what I was saying and I stand behind what I said.

 >>>Wendy Connors

 >>Wendy,

 >>At the risk of being labeled a Pflockapologist...

 >>It would behoove you to know what you're talking about. I
 >>dare say that Pflock has no quarrel or question whatsoever
 >>with Haut's original, consistent testimony re his involvement
 >>with the Roswell incident.

 >>It's the recent "mutation" - escalation or whatever you
 >>prefer to call it - of same that Pflock has - in my humble
 >>opinion legitimate - problems with.

 >>Apparently, you don't, which is your choice. But that hardly
 >>makes Pflock's assessment of Haut's change of story "as far
 >>from ethical research as possible."

 >>I'd say it's part caution and common sense. Far too many
 >>experiences escalate in the telling and retelling, including
 >>the example Pflock cited of Betty Hill. But maybe you believe
 >>everything Betty Hill has ever said, too.

 >>Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.


 >Would everyone who has come to this discussion with an open mind
 >that has no pre-conceived notions regarding the Roswell case
 >please stand up. Someone! Anyone? Okay, so this is more like a
 >sports event where we stand on the sidelines and cheer our team
 >to victory.

 >I believe that name calling is not helpful in this type of
 >discussion, but I think Wendy's frustration with those who seem
 >to have entered the discussion to stand on their soap box
 >promote their opinion as gospel is understandable.

 >Karl has established his opinion regarding the Roswell incident
 >(and has long been known to most researchers in the field). I
 >believe he has worked very hard to back up his contentions in
 >his new book (which I have, but haven't had time to read). But
 >if he had any actual proof of his theories we'd have seen that
 >evidence laid out here and on the nightly news, which I have yet
 >to see. I have to read his book before I make any comments on it
 >directly (and probably wouldn't get into that debate anyway).
 >But, I've seen no reason to believe his theories over those of
 >Kevin Randle or Stanton Friedman (who have each promoted their
 >own interpretation of the incident). In the end, it seems to
 >come down to the beliefs and faith of the reader, and what that
 >person expects to get out of the book.

 >As far as Walter Haut is concerned, the fact that his story has
 >changed in the past number of years could have a variety of
 >reasons. Perhaps age is indeed a factor here, or perhaps he has
 >decided to express a secret that he has maintained for years
 >(hoping to one day come clean when the facts of the incident are
 >proven by other research and fear of prosecution was minimized).
 >It comes as no surprise that his inconsistency and age have been
 >questioned, and the threat of his becoming hounded by
 >researchers and others has apparently caused him to retreat from
 >further discussion of the matter. Karl is certainly pointing out
 >factors in this that should be considered, but that shouldn't be
 >confused with proof.

 >In science one isn't required to prove the negative, which means
 >that anyone who has to prove the existence of alien space craft
 >has to prove the case with evidence at hand. Those who are
 >skeptical aren't required to prove that they don't exist.
 >However, this is an historical discussion, not scientific.
 >Anyone attempting to establish historical facts is required to
 >prove their case, and otherwise one is left with theories and
 >allegations.

 >I hope everyone has a safe New Year,


Unlike Steve, I have read Karl's book. There are many items with
which I am in agreement about what he calls "conventional
wisdom".

However, I am in total disagreement with his conclusions.

I expect to do a long review at some time, but briefly his chief
tool for dismissing the testimony of Pappy Henderson, Dr. John
Kromshroeder, Jesse Marcel Sr., Colonel Blanchard is unsupported
character assasination. He provides no basis for dismissing
Pappy as a practical joker or for his false claim that Pappy was
passing off a piece of a V-2 as a piece of wreckage. (A Kal
Korff unsubstantiated claim) I have met with Pappy's daughter,
wife, and Kromshroeder, and spoken with his son and son-in-law
(who also handled the small piece of wreckage), and his WW 2
bombardier Vere McCarty (To whom Pappy told the story at a
reunion in the early 1980s). As well as with Walter Haut about
Pappy. Karl does seem to rely on a comment from Kal Korff (also
presented without evidence) about the V-2 piece. He accepts Bob
Todd's vicious attack on Marcel, but doesn't mention David
Rudiak's outstanding and detailed refutation.

Blanchard had four big promotions after Roswell winding up a 4
star General and Vice-Chief of Staff of the USAF... at the time
of his death. He had also served as Inspector General for the
_Air_Force_. At least his last promotion had to be approved by
Congress. The loose-cannon charge is from an anonymous source.
Certainly there were people who didn't like Blanchard. I spoke
with Paul Tibbits - the Enola Gay pilot - who certainly didn't
care for Blanchard, as noted in Tibbitt's book. But his record
alone refutes the loose-cannon charge. I also spoke with, then
retired 4 Star USAF General, Jack Ryan who was a close friend
and a West Point Class mate who only had good things to say. I
spoke with Blanchard's first and second wives, and his three
children among others. Karl does not back up his claims.

Karl also decries Roswell on the basis of a bunch of documents
(almost all SECRET, and none TOP SECRET Code Word) which said
nothing about Roswell. How could they have? He has provided no
TS Code Word documents. Absence of evidence is _not_ evidence
for absence. Karl knows better than to suggest that TSCW info
would be released in lower-level documents.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that, legally, one cannot
defame a dead person. So Karl can't be sued for defamation by
the relatives of Henderson, Marcel, Blanchard and Kromshroeder,
all of whom are deceased.

I haven't seen Wendy's Haut tape. So can't comment.

I have met with the Sheriff's daughters and at least 2
granddaughters. I can see no reason to reject the testimony of
any of them and Karl has not provided any. Incidentally,
rejecting Kromshroeder because he accepted the Billy Meier story
is also baseless. John knew from Pappy's testimony that saucers
were real, so he was interested in everything about them.

I will say that in my opinion Karl's book is the best of the
three anti-Roswell books published by Prometheus and that they
would never have published a book that concluded that Roswell
involved recovery of at least one alien spacecraft.


Stan Friedman









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                  Alfred's Odd Observation #003 <addendum>

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:41:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:16:40 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #003 <addendum>


Alfred's Odd Observation #003 <addendum>

The bear, Ursa, _is_ female!

In Greek mythology Callisto, daughter of King Lycaon, was chosen
as a young child to be one of Artemis's companions. Now Artemis
was Apollo's sister, patroness of childbirth and protector of
babies and of suckling animals. The one thing she prized above
all was her chastity; she even asked Zeus for eternal virginity,
which he granted.

Artemis gathered about her a number of young nymphs. Reflecting
her own vows on chastity, she also required complete fidelity
from these young women (girls actually, who would grow into
womanhood). One of these was Callisto.

Zeus had the habit of rogering the young maidens, and eventually
he got around to Callisto. When Artemis discovered that Callisto
was pregnant, she took her revenge. Artemis loved to hunt; she
would take her revenge in the chase. So she changed Callisto
into a bear. (Remember that Artemis is the same goddess that
caught Actaeon watching her bathe. She turned him into a stag
then set his own hounds on him. They ripped him to pieces.)

So Artemis's plan was to have Callisto, as a bear, hunted down
and killed. But Zeus took pity, and sent Callisto to the
heavens, keeping the same form of a bear. Her son Arcas would
grow up to be the ancestral founder of the Arcadians, before he
too joined his mother in the heavens as Ursa Minor.

Wow! Read on!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Dec > Dec 29

                        Australian 'Drury UFO' Film?

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:23:01 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:20:18 -0500
Subject: Australian 'Drury UFO' Film?


Hello List,

I trust everyone had a Merry Christmas.

I'm after any information on the Drury UFO film that was
allegedly handed to a U.S. Intelligence Agency, by our
Australian Government and was subsequently destroyed.

Can anyone enlighten me on this alligation, and anything else
pertaining to this event.

Greatly appreciated.....


Regards,

Leigh Blackmore
troswell51@optusnet.com.au








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                 Re: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:25:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:24:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Bourdais


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:35:06 -0500

 >Would everyone who has come to this discussion with an open mind
 >that has no pre-conceived notions regarding the Roswell case
 >please stand up. Someone! Anyone? Okay, so this is more like a
 >sports event where we stand on the sidelines and cheer our team
 >to victory.

I tried to study Roswell with an open mind, back in 1995. I went
to Roswell, where I met, twice, with Walter Haut, and to the
MUFON Symposium in Seattle, where I met with Karl Pflock, after
having read his book with interest.

I had a little discussion with him, pointing out that, according
to descriptions of the debris field, there had been a violent
explosion there. After trying to avoid the question, he finally
admitted that, well, there could have been an explosion. But, a
couple of hours later, at the final debate, he stated again,
without the slightest reservation, that it was a Mogul balloon
train.

Helium filled balloons cannot explode!

That behavior alone lead me to distrust anything that
Karl Pflock would say.

A few months later, I was not surprised to discover in the USAF
Roswell Report, that Sheridan Cavitt called him "our best
debunker"!

On the contrary, I had a very strong feeeling of honesty on the
part of Walter Haut. He insisted, twice, on the fact that there
was very tight discipline at Roswell. My understanding of that,
today, is that he was trying to tell me that he was tied to
secrecy and could not tell everything. Therefore, his new
revelations are credible to me. This may be the behavior of a
man wants to give his testimony before his death.

And many thanks to Wendy Connors for coming out and giving her
own testimony on this List.


Gildas Bourdais









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                         2002: Year Of The Mothman?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:30:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:30:58 -0500
Subject: 2002: Year Of The Mothman?

http://downtoearth.ncbuy.com/newscenter/weirdnews.html?qdate01-12-28&nav=
VIEW&id=CJ3VZ141507011228

Wireless Flash Weird News: December 28, 2001


2002: Year Of The Mothman?

POINT PLEASANT, W.V. (Wireless Flash) -- A hideous creature
called the "Mothman" may soon be as well-known as Bigfoot or the
Loch Ness Monster.

The Mothman is a 6-foot-tall creature with wings that haunts the
town of Point Pleasant, West Virginia -- usually appearing just
before a major disaster, such as a bridge collapse that killed
46 people in 1967.

Locals are afraid to discuss the Mothman, but they may not be
able to avoid it starting next month, when a new movie, "The
Mothman Prophecies," opens in theaters.

Mothman expert Loren Coleman fears media attention will turn
Point Pleasant into a paranormal tourist trap "a la" Roswell,
New Mexico, and create more myths than facts.

As a result, he's trying to get Point Pleasant locals to spill
the beans about the Mothman now, before tourism changes
everything.

---

[UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist: http://www.anomalist.com/
  for the lead]









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                        Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:38:19 -0500
Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?


At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
older work?


Steve









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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:25:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:40:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:54:42 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:07:30 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Dennis and David,

 >>But to summarize, the point is not whether or when green
 >>'others' were first portrayed (Kottmeyer cites numerous
 >>instances of same himself), but when same became accepted as
 >>common currency for flying saucer occupants. When, in other
 >>words, did LGM reach the tipping point, as it were?

 >The point is when they became accepted as a common, put-down
 >term for aliens, _not_ "flying saucer occupants."

As far as that goes, it would be interesting to know exactly when
the concept of "flying saucer occupants," by that name, came into
common usage.

 >>Aliens were portrayed as all sorts of colors, shapes, and sizes
 >>prior to what we think of as the UFO phenomenon. The question
 >>remains: why and when did LGM become _the_ commonly accepted
 >>reference to same?

 >Right, to portrayal of aliens in general, not specifically
 >"flying saucer occupants." I'm making an issue of this because
 >the two are not the same. If LGM was in the oral vernacular
 >prior to 1947, then it might also be used by people in 1947 to
 >refer to space aliens in association with the new "flying
 >saucer" phenomenon.

 >I've looked at a lot of newspapers from July 1947, but have yet
 >to see a specific LGM reference. Kevin Randle mentioned a
 >spoofing column by Hal Boyle about a green alien piloting a
 >saucer, though not using the term 'LGM'. However, it's a good
 >indication that the mental imagery of aliens being green was out
 >there.

I think that last point has been conclusively established. It
seems to me that the question of whether Brazel could have
referred to "green men" or "little green men" - he could have
said either - has been settled, in the affirmative. Further
argument on this arcane matter is surely pointless.

That doesn't answer all the other questions, of course, but this
issue, though one of relatively little consequence in the larger
context of the Roswell bodies issue, at least has been resolved.


Jerry Clark










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                                 Dead Aliens

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:43:21 -0500
Subject: Dead Aliens


Hello all.

In a previous post I brought up the question - did the Alien
bodies ah, smell, after laying in the hot summer sun of Roswell?

Apparently they did and were quite fragrant, as in fetid,
stinkaroo, gagging, etc.

Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be overcome
if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the 'Alien
Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving their
toe-nails out?

The 'tent footage' is, again, in the hot summer sun and nobody
appears to be dressed for a very stinky autopsy. This is a
problem.


GT McCoy









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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:40:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:47:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Dennis, you certainly have a knack for focusing on the
 >remarkably unimportant.

 >How about dealing instead with the obvious implications of the
 >phrase "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO ?????? AT FORT
 >WORTH, TEX."?

 >David Rudiak

David, and you have a remarkable knack for changing the subject,
which, in case you forgot, was the origin of the phrase 'little
green men' and when it became common currency, as in, was it a
common expression in 1947, as Joyce or Brazel's alleged
testimony would seem to indicate?

If so, it would had to have been dang common in order to be an
understood phrase in rural New Mexico in 1947. I repeat: there
is no evidence that that was the case.

Read Kottmeyer's article or don't. I don't care. Of "comic strip
series like Alley Oop, L'il Abner, Popeye, Buck Rogers, Flash
Gordon and Superman", Kottmeyer says that "the phrase remained
elusive and drawings of aliens never seemed to fully match the
idea. Green aliens were either not-little or not-man-like while
little men were not-green."

Further on: "A fellow ufologist, Luis Gonzalez Manso, queried a
superhero comics expert jjnevin@ix.netcom.com [I think his name
is Jess Nevin] and he affirms use of LGM in comics does not
predate 1948 or so. He adds, 'The big vogue for putting aliens
in the comics did not really start until 1949 or 1950, and the
aliens were many different shapes and colors. In this case, I'm
afraid, the phrase sprang from science fiction rather than the
comics.'"

BTW, the green aliens on the Buck Rogers comic you linked are
smaller as a matter of perspective. Look at it again. They are
further away than the humans in the foreground, hence 'shorter'.

As for the contents of Ramey's teletype, that's a whole
different kettle of fish, as you well know. My take on it - as
if you're interested - is that it is extremely interesting and
may yet have much to reveal. I'm also aware, as I presume you
are, that even the most ardent proponents of said smoking gun
and/or holy grail, have yet to unanimously agree on its
contents.

You are entitled to your personal interpretation of it - and
with that there is no arguing.

Much as I might like to.

Needless to say, you are also entitled to your interpretation as
to the anomalousness of the material displayed in Ramey's
office.

Meanwhile, Happy New Year!

May Little Green Men not darken your doorstep. Or little gray
ones, for that matter.


Dennis Stacy









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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 338

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:47:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:00:18 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 338


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 338 -  21 DECEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- The Final 'UFO Forum'
- Another (Bad) UFO Book
- The 'Golden Little Martian' Cinematography Award


The Final 'UFO Forum'

Appearing in the coming days is Issue 19 of 'UFO Forum', the
technical journal from the C.I.S.U. which appears every four
months under the editorship of Giuseppe Stilo.

Among the articles in this issue: the catalog of Italian
pre-ufological cases of 'antiquity'; reflections on the
'teleportation' of Scorze; the history of state UFO research in
the U.S.S.R.; a critique on the historic-ufological materialism
of the 'Men in Red'; the stories of 'crashed UFOs' in the
Nineteenth Century.

As announced, this will be the final issue of 'UFO Forum', since
beginning with the coming year, the banner will be incorporated
into the periodical 'UFO - Rivista di informazione ufologica'
('UFO Information Magazine'), which thus becomes quarterly.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


Another (Bad) UFO Book

On the heels of the one by Lissoni, Macro Edizioni of Cesena is
sending to bookstores a second UFO book: "Extraterrestri Amici e
Ostili" ('Extraterrestrials: Frienda and Foes'), by the American
George Andrews, originally published in 1993 (455 pages, 18 Euro
or 34,835 Lire).

It concerns not only the umpteenth translation of a horrible
book, but a veritable 'cult,' because the author is one of the
exponents of the anti-American, para-ufological conspiracy view
and this text was one of the best-sellers of pseudo-ufological
trash overseas.

[Report by Maurizio Morini.]


The "Golden Little Martian" Cinematography Award

Speaking of 'trash': going to Michelangelo Visconti (for his
short film "Close Encounters") is the "Golden Little Martian"
Cinematography Award presented by Progetto Cinema of the Italian
Center for UFO Studies during the course of the 6th Festival of
Trash Cinema, which concluded in Turin on 16 December.

The award is intended to recognize the 'inclusion of elements
specific to the UFO phenomenon, in an ironic and iconoclastic
sense.' The plot: two boys in a brewery uncover the truth behind
an invasion by microscopic UFOs, which makes itself known in a
sudden and not inconspicuous manner.

[Collaboration by Fabrizio Dividi and Matteo Leone.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Fabrizio Dividi, Gian Paolo
Grassino, Matteo Leone and Maurizio Morini.



- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:

Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely
copied, photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed
and retrieved, at the only condition that Centro Italiano
Studi Ufologici is reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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                            CCCRN News: 12-29-01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:55:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:02:56 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 12-29-01


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

December 29, 2001

_____________________________


NEW WEB SITE, E-NEWS SERVICE FOR FIELDS OF DREAMS RADIO SHOW

Starting January 1, 2002, the Fields of Dreams webcast radio
show will have its own web site and e-news e-mail service which
will provide the latest updates on show schedules and upcoming
guests.

Fields of Dreams is the premier webcast radio show (monthly) on
the crop circle phenomenon, part of the Night Search Paranormal
Network (http://www.nightsearch.net). FOD will not be a part of
CCCRN specifically, but an independent program encompassing the
phenomenon as a whole, and will continue to feature leading
researchers from around the globe, providing an audio forum for
discussion of all aspects of this fascinating subject. CCCRN
will continue to focus on investigation of the phenomenon in
Canada, as usual.

Fields of Dreams web site (under construction):

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

Fields of Dreams e-news service (program / guest updates):

To subscribe to Fields of Dreams, send a blank e-mail to:
fieldsofdreams-subscribe@topica.com

Or go to:

http://www.topica.com/lists/fieldsofdreams

The first Fields of Dreams update will be sent out January 1,
with details for the next show on January 2, with Colin Andrews
(please note: while Colin's recent views have caused much
controversy in the crop circle research community, it is the
purpose of FOD to provide an objective forum for all
viewpoints). Previous guests so far since the program's start
last fall have been Beata Van Berkom, Nancy Talbott and Linda
Moulton Howe.

Please note: to receive the e-mail updates, you will need to
subscribe yourself as per above, as Topica will not allow me to
add addresses manually as a privacy / anti-spam precaution
feature. The same is true for the CCCRN News updates.

Thanks again to Eddie, Colleen, Bob and everyone at NSPN for
making possible this and all the programs on the NSPN network.

Happy New Year to everyone.

Paul Anderson
Host

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

Or go to:

http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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                Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:58:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:42:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Lehmberg


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >older work?


...Especially one so easily, righteously, and roundly
discredited, even if I do say so myself. Is this another bit of
projectile vomit from the Promethean press and so therefore
another mirage of the ubiquitous non-conspiracy? <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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               Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:06:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:55:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies - Friedman


 >From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:04:56 -0800

 >>Date: 28 Dec 2001 06:12:27 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Roswell Aliens Vs. Crash Dummies

 >>I found an example of a retired Air Force Colonel's response to
 >>the Crash Dummy explanation given to the reported alien bodies
 >>found at the Roswell wreckage site. This was posted to the
 >>Skywatch List and UFO UpDates in 1997.

 >>Other than a detailed description of the wreckage of the object
 >>at the Roswell crash site from a credible source, it is the
 >>finding of non-human bodies that makes the Roswell case for an
 >>extraterrestrial origin and a magnet for interest.

 >>-----

 >>Dummies weren't classified, says retired colonel

 >>[The Associated Press]

 >>GRANTS -- A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high
 >>tech crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way
 >>they'd be confused with aliens described in rumors arising from
 >>the Roswell Incident.

 >>Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the
 >>latest Air Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July
 >>1947. The Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air
 >>Force believes crash test dummies used in the 1950s were
 >>mistaken for the rumored 1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO
 >>buffs just got their dates mixed up.

 >>Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project
 >>officer for Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for
 >>four years starting in the 1950s.

 ><snip>

 >Having seen Lt. Col. Madson's deposition in the 'Roswell: Case
 >Closed' report I decided I'd give him a phone call and discuss
 >the report with him. He answered the phone and was very polite
 >and helpful.

 >I asked if he felt anything he said had been taken out of
 >context in the report. His answer was that nothing was directly
 >taken out of context, but he did make it clear to the officers
 >doing the report that nobody could be mistaken as to the true
 >nature of these dummies.

 >He said, once, during a test at Wright Patterson Air Force Base
 >one of the dummies fell into the back yard of one of the base
 >commander's houses. He said at first the General's family was
 >horrified when they saw what appeared to be a man in a parachute
 >fall to the ground, but quickly realized it was a 250 pound
 >mechanical dummy.

 >So, he said, they basically left out the parts where he
 >suggested that nobody would really mistake the dummies for
 >anything living, but that was about it. I also asked him about
 >anything he may have seen or heard up at Wright Patterson AFB
 >that he would count as strange or unusual. His response was
 >something along the lines of he knew the Little Green Men
 >stories well but that he wouldn't feel comfortable talking about
 >those, as it might betray some old friends.

 >Scott Hale

I met with retired Colonel Madson in Albuquerque a few years
ago. His picture with crash test dummy Sierra Sam and another
officer is in 'The Roswell Report: Case Closed' on page 29. He
was most gracious and stressed that the crash test dummies
indeed had to be the size and weight of pilots for the tests to
be meaningful. He also noted that during his work at WPAFB both
he and his wife, who also worked there, had independently heard
of there being alien bodies at the base. He also noted that one
project he worked on was so classified that his boss didn't know
what he was doing and gave him a bad rating which was corrected
by the supervisor on the special project.. related to the U-2.

It is interesting that the map showing the locations of the
dropping of crash test dummies is used three times. Rather
amazingly there were no dummies dropped near either crash site.
But then when did the USAF or Roswell debunkers ever let the
truth stand in the way of their debunking?. A typical example
might be generally ignoring the comment in many articles that
the wreckage was found last week from July 8 which surely rules
out the Mogul Balloon launch so often brought forth.


Stan Friedman








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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:56:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:02:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Kaeser


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Dead Aliens
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800

 >Hello all.

 >In a previous post I brought up the question - did the Alien
 >bodies ah, smell, after laying in the hot summer sun of Roswell?

 >Apparently they did and were quite fragrant, as in fetid,
 >stinkaroo, gagging, etc.

 >Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
 >next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be
 >overcome if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the
 >'Alien Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving
 >their toe-nails out?

 >The 'tent footage' is, again, in the hot summer sun and
 >nobody appears to be dressed for a very stinky autopsy. This
 >is a problem.


I don't seem to recall Mac Brazel actually seeing any bodies. He
had complained about the debris field to authorities, but I've
seen nothing to indicate that he had discussed either bodies or
a 'craft'.

As far as alien fragrance is concerned, we've got some
(generally third-party) anecdotal testimony that described the
stench, but I think the implication was that they gave off a
terrible odor as aliens, not because they'd had time to begin
decomposition in the hot sun. IMO, as far as the AA footage is
concerned, we need a bit more provenance from Ray Santilli
before it deserves any further discussion.


Steve










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                 Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:13:17 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:04:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Tonnies


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >older work?

UFOs! If the 'definitive' explanation doesn't take the first
time, try again. NASA, taking a 'neutral stance', stated in 1998
that they hoped the new image of the Face on Mars had "scotched
this thing for good." Fortunately it didn't, and JPL is once
again falsifying data in a valiant attempt at 'scotching'.
Debunkers _hate_ it when things don't go away.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com








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                    Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:20:42 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell' - Tonnies


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Roswell UFO Bombshell'
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:25:34 +0100

<snip>

 >On the contrary, I had a very strong feeeling of honesty on the
 >part of Walter Haut. He insisted, twice, on the fact that there
 >was very tight discipline at Roswell. My understanding of that,
 >today, is that he was trying to tell me that he was tied to
 >secrecy and could not tell everything. Therefore, his new
 >revelations are credible to me. This may be the behavior of a
 >man wants to give his testimony before his death.

What, specifically, does Haut have to say about the alleged
bodies? I would love to know more about this.

--Mac










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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:36:40 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:08:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Dead Aliens
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:56:18 -0500

<snip>

 >As far as alien fragrance is concerned, we've got some
 >(generally third-party) anecdotal testimony that described the
 >stench, but I think the implication was that they gave off a
 >terrible odor as aliens, not because they'd had time to begin
 >decomposition in the hot sun.

Glenn Dennis' "testimony" is the most graphic, concerning the
aliens' odor.

 >IMO, as far as the AA footage is concerned, we need a bit more
 >provenance from Ray Santilli >before it deserves any further
 >discussion.

So do I. But if real, I don't think it's related to the Roswell
crash. In any case, the pathologists are decked out in isolation
suits that (one would like to think) keep the smell at bay.
Also, there is a plaque on the wall indicating a "maximum
working time" of one hour.

See my thoughts at: http://mactonnies.com/aa.html

--Mac









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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:11:18 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000

 >The issue of Roswell (or for UFOs as possible visitors from
 >elsewhere) will not be solved by cynicism, prematurely assuming
 >you have all the answers, and digging in of heels. In saying
 >this, I particularly have in mind the recent cynical comments by
 >Dennis Stacy and the presumptuous and condescending remarks of
 >Karl Pflock, whose adoption of Jim Moseley as his "standard" of
 >serious UFO research tells us all we need to know about him. The
 >Roswell incident (or incidents) has been beclouded by a clash of
 >giant egos, the moral equivalent of "disinformation" (phony
 >witnesses, dishonest activities driven by something other than
 >an objective search for the truth), and by skeptibunker
 >propaganda ploys that would make Joseph Goebbels look like a
 >rank amateur.

Dick,

I take exception to your remarks as far as they pertain to me
personally. If you'll reread my most recent remarks, you'll see
that I was responding to someone who made completely cynical and
conspiratorial  remarks about the test dummies. I didn't say I
accepted or supported the AF point of view -- I merely pointed
out that there was another way of looking at it, regardless of
whether one agreed with it or not. Now I'm in league with Karl
Pflock!

So who's the cynic here? Obviously, you equate cynicism and
disinformation with anyone who might be inclined to accept any
Air Force statements to the effect that they really *don't* have
a crashed flying saucer and alien corpses in their possession.

Your pompous piety and appeals to "tolerance for ambiguity" are
beginning to wear a bit thin. The fact of the matter, as you
well know, is that it is damnably difficult to disprove a
negative. When, for example, will you agree that I've stopped
beating my wife?

The indisputable fact of the matter is that your mind is just as
made up as those you criticize of cynicism (or worse). There is
nothing, nothing, _nothing_ that could be discovered or
uncovered, published or revealed, that would or ever could
dissuade you of the fact that nothing unusual occurred at
Roswell and that, in fact, the AF has not had alien bodies on
ice for the last 50+ years. Not the McCoy document, not Kent
Lorenzo's [I hope I have the name right] testimony to the
contrary, not the exposure of one after another less than honest
"eyewitness" -- in short, nothing.

I just wish you would dispense with the hypocrisy of pretending
to occupy the objective high-ground - when your own mind is
most emphatically and demonstrably made up. After all, you've
talked to Roswell witnesses!

As if I (or anyone else) had some sort of role in the creation
of the Kauffmanns, Dennises, Corsos, Rowes, Andersons, and
others out there.

Who's dissembling who here? Do you _know_? Of course not, but
that's hardly an impediment to your pretending as if you did. So
what do we outsiders take as our 'veracity' barometer re.
Roswell? The fact of whether the great, objective, non-cynical
Dick Hall happened to interview a particular 'witness' or not?
Have you been able to convince, say, Stanton Friedman, or for
that matter, Don Berliner, that Gerald Anderson just may not be
the most reliable person on the planet? I thought not.

To paraphrase Joe Ely: If you want cynicism, I'll give you
cynicism.

 >The only way to arrive at a meaningful conclusion about Roswell
 >(and UFOs as visitors from elsewhere) is to thoroughly
 >investigate all leads (quite a few central witnesses remain to
 >be questioned on the record), expose hoaxes or false
 >information, and to continue the search for historical
 >documentation or the lack thereof. To assume that the final
 >answer has been established is totally unjustified.

So, have you talked to Kent Lorenzo? For that matter, have you
talked to anyone who claimed to have been at Roswell at the time
and who didn't testify to anything untoward taking place? And
you publicized same... where?

 >Unlike some of the armchair pundits, I have talked with Walter
 >Haut, viewed his videotaped testimony about bodies (which Pflock
 >cynically writes off as "false memory"), met and talked with
 >members of Sheriff Wilcox's family, etc. Among the more
 >honorable Roswell researchers has been Kevin Randle, who (like
 >all of us) was surprised to learn that his colleague Don Schmitt
 >was somewhat ethically deprived (as is Pflock when it comes to
 >purloined tapes). Randle immediately acknowledged the problem
 >and proceeded to set the record straight, taking great pains to
 >repair the damage. I will not at present go into further detail,
 >except to say that Randle has acted very honorably in this
 >matter and has continued to do important research in a careful
 >and objective manner. Pflock, by contrast, has been on the cusp
 >of debunking all along and his Roswell book apparently could
 >only be published by the "CSICOP Press." That also tells us
 >something very important. In the CSICOP view, we know in advance
 >that it can't be true; therefore no further investigation is
 >necessary.

People talked to Anderson, Kaufmann, Rowe, Ragsdale, and Dennis,
too. Unfortunately, it didn't render the former anymore truthful
for it.

 >Pflock's glib write-off of Pappy Henderson's testimony, and that
 >of Haut and the Wilcox family, is another indication of a
 >totally made-up mind, if not deliberate disinformation, which
 >Jerry Clark does not like to even consider as an alternative.
 >(Don't get me wrong; I love Jerry Clark and consider him to be
 >the peerless historian of ufology and one of its best informed
 >and most articulate commentators. It's just that he and I
 >disagree on possible real 'conspiracies' or deliberate efforts
 >to confuse the issues.)

 >It all comes down to that marvelous psychology concept of
 >"Tolerance for ambiguity." I see enough smoke about Roswell to
 >suspect an underlying conflagration, and we won't know for sure
 >one way or the other with out a lot more careful, thorough,
 >objective investigation by people without obvious axes to grind
 >or track records of game-playing. I am willing to wait it out
 >and to hope for new findings that will shed light on the issues.
 >Unlike the skeptibunkers, I do not feel compelled to assert
 >final answers until more can be learned by following up on the
 >many loose ends.

No, of course you don't. While asserting your own final answer
and accusing anyone who dares differ with charges ranging from
cynicism and game-playing to disinformation, and so on. (Which
takes us back to: what evidence would persuade you that nothing
untoward happened at Roswell? It would almost have to be
government evidence/documents at this point, wouldn't it? But,
wait: we all know what you think of gov't documents and denials,
as in not to be trusted. So you'll always have an "out." Lucky
man, you! No more McCoy-like docs need apply, presumably however
persuasive.)

Put another way, name someone who disagrees with your current
assessment of Roswell who is open-minded, non-cynical,
non-disinformative, and, by all appearances, not a planted mole.
(As we could never know for sure, could we?)

I understand it may be a short list, but try, anyway.

In other words... do you and Roswell have _any_ honorable
critics? Or just pond scum?

Please be objective, open-minded, and tolerant of ambiguity in
your response. Like the rest of us (who are apparently none of
the above) are supposed to be.

There, I knew you could do it!


Dennis Stacy









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                  Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:17:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:57:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Friedman


 >From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
 >Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 3:30 PM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 2002: Year Of The Mothman?


 >Source: Down To Earth

 >http://downtoearth.ncbuy.com/newscenter/weirdnews.html?qdate01-12-28&na
v=VIEW&id=CJ3VZ141507011228

 >Wireless Flash Weird News: December 28, 2001

 >2002: Year Of The Mothman?

 >POINT PLEASANT, W.V. (Wireless Flash) -- A hideous creature
 >called the "Mothman" may soon be as well-known as Bigfoot or the
 >Loch Ness Monster.

 >The Mothman is a 6-foot-tall creature with wings that haunts the
 >town of Point Pleasant, West Virginia -- usually appearing just
 >before a major disaster, such as a bridge collapse that killed
 >46 people in 1967.

 >Locals are afraid to discuss the Mothman, but they may not be
 >able to avoid it starting next month, when a new movie, "The
 >Mothman Prophecies," opens in theaters.

 >Mothman expert Loren Coleman fears media attention will turn
 >Point Pleasant into a paranormal tourist trap "a la" Roswell,
 >New Mexico, and create more myths than facts.

 >As a result, he's trying to get Point Pleasant locals to spill
 >the beans about the Mothman now, before tourism changes
 >everything.


I must object to calling Roswell a tourist trap. Prices for
everything are very reasonable. Entry in to the museum is free.

Fine steaks at reasonable prices at the Cattle Baron, there is a
Walmart and lots of friendly people.

On the other hand I have not at all been impressed in my
dealings years ago with John Keel about Roswell (FUGO balloons
indeed), about the use of plutonium, about the notion that Jews
didn't get high level security clearances because Hoover was
antisemitic, that all government documents in the 1947 time
frame were on 8x10.5" paper etc ad nauseum. He even had Goddard
running his rocket tests in Aztec rather than near Roswell..

Our UFO group in Pittsburgh did go down to WV and talked to
Woodrow Derenberger... Keel's men in Black imagination is also
questionable. I will take Roswell any time.


Stan Friedman











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                        Re: New Year Agenda - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:30:54 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:00:01 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Tonnies


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >I take exception to your remarks as far as they pertain to me
 >personally. If you'll reread my most recent remarks, you'll see
 >that I was responding to someone who made completely cynical and
 >conspiratorial remarks about the test dummies. I didn't say I
 >accepted or supported the AF point of view - I merely pointed
 >out that there was another way of looking at it, regardless of
 >whether one agreed with it or not. Now I'm in league with Karl
 >Pflock!

Since when is Pflock the evil-minded conspirator he's so often
made out to be on this List? I've read every book on Roswell
that I know of, and Pflock's is the most rigorous, well-written,
and illuminating of them all, even if I take issue with some of
the particulars (and I do).

While 'Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe'
argues against an ET explanation for Roswell, it's certainly not
a glowing endorsement of the AF's 'explanation'. There's always
the possibility that his conclusions are wrong. But in the
meantime, I'm tired of seeing his name lumped with all that is
despicable and dishonest about the Roswell affair.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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                  Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:12:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:15:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >older work?

 >Steve


Hello Steve:

Its nice that Menzel had a "Definitive Explanation" for the UFO
phenomenon. I sure don't.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:41:47 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:17:17 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Young


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak

<snip>

 >As to Marcel denying knowledge of bodies in public interviews,
 >he could have been like Walter Haut. It is only recently that
 >Haut has mentioned knowing personally of bodies. Of course this
 >raises the question of why the change of story? It could be that
 >talking of strange events or debris is one thing, but saying
 >that there were non-human bodies is quite another. The first is
 >intriguing but still ambiguous in orgin or implications; the
 >second, however, is not ambiguous and an open invitation to
 >intense disbelief and personal attack. There may also be the
 >sense of having crossed the line and seriously broached an
 >explicit or implicit security oath. So some may find it better
 >not to raise the subject or deny personal knowledge when it is
 >raised.

 >(Incidentally, I also spoke recently to Walter Haut, who doesn't
 >know me from a hole in the wall. He would speak to me only in
 >the vaguest generalities, and I couldn't get him anywhere near
 >the subject of bodies. It strikes me that this is generally a
 >taboo subject for Haut.)

David, List:

Is there a citation for Haut recently mentioning bodies?


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Haggard

From: Michael Haggard <mikeh@cybertrails.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:02:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:26:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Haggard


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Dead Aliens
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800

 >Hello all.

 >In a previous post I brought up the question - did the Alien
 >bodies ah, smell, after laying in the hot summer sun of Roswell?

 >Apparently they did and were quite fragrant, as in fetid,
 >stinkaroo, gagging, etc.

 >Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
 >next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be overcome
 >if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the 'Alien
 >Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving their toe-nails out?

 >The 'tent footage' is, again, in the hot summer sun and nobody
 >appears to be dressed for a very stinky autopsy. This is a problem.


This is a good point, but I think it is a better point for the
discussion on the crash test dummies. Anyone ever smelled a
dummy out in the sun for a few hours? I doubt they have the same
decomposition problems as living flesh.


Michael Haggard









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             Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Woods

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:07:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:32:03 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Woods


Hello Listers,

So, evidently some of you were disappointed by the year-end
review I did on Errol's show, 'Strange Days... Indeed' last
week. Some felt I was too depressed and depressing, too
dismissive, too heavily influenced by 9-11.

Too bad.

No matter what you call me, I'm still going to think Dieting for
Disclosure was nothing more than the kind of childish, hunger
strike both my sons tried on me when they were young. They were
sent to their rooms. They soon saw the light. Maybe you think we
should all buckle under to emotional extortion and blackmail -
if so, cure yourself of that belief.

No matter how much of the more-in-sadness-than-in-anger tone is
taken about my intellectual short-comings, I still think the
9-11 attacks reduced the UFO Disclosure movement to a small
footnote on the political scorecard. If it were any other way,
I'd have even less respect for the leaders of the U.S. and
Canada... and I don't have much to begin with. Perhaps
developing a sense of proportion might help some of you.

While I believe there are UFOs visiting earth, I _know_
terrorists have flown passenger aircraft into buildings.

Even the supposed efforts of hardcore researchers can be trivial
without my trivializing it. Does anyone really think the fourth
or fifth debate about the Alien Autopsy footage makes any of us
look bright? Can you point to a single event in the last 12
months that moved the UFO issue forward?

At the core of the UFO issue is a bonafide mystery, one worthy
of scientific research until it's resolved. However, it's acne
compared to the cancer that currently threatens the body politic
of the West... and if the cancer isn't treated first, it will
kill us.

But to be honest, I couldn't care less if anyone agrees with
me... or even sees what I'm getting at.

Hope everyone has a Happy New Year.


Mike Woods
(No, I won't turn in my licence plates!)

The Truth can STAY out there...
Send in a good FANTASY!!










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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:52:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:34:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Stacy


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:25:55 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>I've looked at a lot of newspapers from July 1947, but have yet
 >>to see a specific LGM reference. Kevin Randle mentioned a
 >>spoofing column by Hal Boyle about a green alien piloting a
 >>saucer, though not using the term 'LGM'. However, it's a good
 >>indication that the mental imagery of aliens being green was out
 >>there.

 >I think that last point has been conclusively established. It
 >seems to me that the question of whether Brazel could have
 >referred to "green men" or "little green men" - he could have
 >said either - has been settled, in the affirmative. Further
 >argument on this arcane matter is surely pointless.

 >That doesn't answer all the other questions, of course, but this
 >issue, though one of relatively little consequence in the larger
 >context of the Roswell bodies issue, at least has been resolved.


Jerry,

I'm surprised at you. That "last point has been conclusively
established"? Conclusively established? By whom and when?
"Settled, in the affirmative"? By whom and when? Cite
references, please. You've already admitted that you lost track
of your own LGM exclusive.

Did I miss something?

"... but this issue... at least has been resolved."

By whom, where, and when? By Rudiak's post? Again, what did I
miss? Cite references, please.

Are you referring to the paragraph you're responding to in which
the author (Rudiak) admits he couldn't find any references to
LGM? And yet this somehow explains and resolves things?

Jeez!

LGM is an etymological issue, not a call for allegiance to
Roswell as an ET phenomenon or not. Think William Safire, as
opposed to David Rudiak, and that will put you in the ballpark,
as opposed to out of it.

The good news is that you'll get a comp copy of TA10.


Dennis Stacy









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                         Bottom Line On Walter Haut

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:21:26 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:41:55 -0500
Subject: Bottom Line On Walter Haut


The bottom line on Walter Haut, seems to be:

1) Haut gave an Oral history interview where he describes or
    discloses certain information that he knew about Roswell
    concerning bodies and other things. He has not previously
    disclosed them and the reasons for not disclosing them is
    also in the Oral History, apparently only available to
    researchers _after_ he is dead.

2) In essence, what Haut has done, is not previously disclosed
    _all_ that he _actually_ knew and saw.

3) So all the researchers who _thought_ they had mined and
    gotten every piece of information from Haut have simply been
    mistaken

4) I predict that when the Oral History becomes public all the
    researchers who didn't get a chance to view and see the
    history will belittle and debunk everything in it for the
    usual assortment of reasons, stories and so forth. We will be
    treated to tales about how Walter's reasons (which may have
    been totally heartfelt by him) were really wrong, misleading
    and why he was a total liar.

5) Speculating about the contents of Walt's Oral history
    interview is similar to a newspaper speculating and
    theorizing about the contents of a classified document,
    without actually seeing what was written in the document. The
    bottom line is no matter what or who says what, the
    information won't be available for awhile.

6) As for Roswell, this isn't the end, just a mid-point.

While many people seem captivated with the idea of 'Well Walt
didn't tell the story earlier, so all this is age, or
misleading, or tall tale telling.'

Over the years their have been many people who didn't 'tell all
the story at the time'. For example Richard Bissell, who worked
on the then highly classified Corona Recon Sat Project, told a
little bit of the information he knew over the years _but_ until
the project was declassified we didn't know everything. People
will instantly claim will what Haut knew is different then a
classified project. This is true, but people do have reasons for
'not telling everything'.


Cheers,

Robert









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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:19:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:02:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Tonnies


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Dead Aliens
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800

<snip>

 >Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
 >next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be overcome
 >if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the 'Alien
 >Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving their
 >toe-nails out?

As I tried to address in a previous post:

1.) There is no compelling reason to assume the AA has anything
to do with Roswell.

2.) If the body in the AA is indeed a decomposing corpse (alien
or otherwise), the pathologists are wearing isolation suits. One
would like to think these would insulate them from whatever
stink the body is emitting. (Also, there is an interesting
"maximum working time" plaque present in the corner of the
operating room.)

 >The 'tent footage' is, again, in the hot summer sun and nobody
 >appears to be dressed for a very stinky autopsy. This is a
 >problem.

Not much of one, since the "tent footage" is an admitted fake.
It was filmed in England in the 1990s. I'm unsure what the
weather conditions were at the time.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com









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             Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:01:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:10:24 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:32:56 -0600

Hello Alfred, hi All,

This post from you is really for Mike Woods to respond to. I
didn't want to jump in before Mike could speak for himself, but
you've made a couple of statements that I'd like to respond to
if I may.

 >... Listened to Errol's year end SDI wrap up of 2001* with the
 >usually much appreciated Mr. M.J.Woods via VSN, and was
 >respectfully disappointed with the cant of the entire segment.

That's allowed Alfred. The 'point' of the editorial
reports/commentaries is to hopefully stimulate people into
thinking about the subject. A 'Year End Wrap-Up' can be an
expression of the commentators own takes/views. There are no
rules which dictate that it must consist of a straight or even
unbiased presentation. And... not everybody is going to like or
agree with everything that is said. Woods is allowed to do his
thing and you are allowed to disagree, or not to like it.

As for Woods, whether I agree with what he is saying or not... I
always appreciate his input. Mike is an honest, intelligent man
and an experienced journalist. Because of that I am
"respectfully disappointed" in _your_ statements about him.

 >I would suggest that Mr. Woods let the ninth month color his
 >entire summation and that he was needlessly cynical with regard
 >to more than a few of the year's events.

Yeah well, that's kind of understandable isn't it? Hasn't it
colored your own life in a discernable way? I know it has
colored mine. What I really object to is the following:

 >Regarding "speakers that are provocative and then surprised when
 >people are provoked..." There is much that is provocative and an
 >abundance of people to be justly or unjustly provoked, but there
 >is much more "beneath contempt" than the almost universally (and
 >perhaps even righteously) detested Dr. Greer and his frank
 >admonition that the events of September 11th might have been
 >precluded by a more timely ufological disclosure. I don't think
 >that Greer's admonition is that far off the mark, requires
 >little stretch in the covering, and I wrote, early on, the exact
 >same thing on UpDates, months ago. In fact, I think Greer copped
 >the thought from _me_.

 >I consider it regrettably inaccurate that Mr. Woods feels "the
 >linkage to be offensive," and the "notion to be ludicrous," even
 >IF Dr. Greer _can_ "be found to be dismissible." My take is
 >that if we knew that we were being observed from space by
 >intelligent beings we'd clean up our entire cultural act,
 >toot-sweet. People don't commit crimes when they know they're
 >being observed. This includes running loaded passenger craft
 >into sky scrapers and any process, philosophy, or real-politick
 >that might have helped precipitate that egregious act.

Let me tell you what I consider to be an "egregious act".

There is a black, smoking hole in the middle of _my_ hometown,
(I was born and raised on the island of Manhattan) that doubles
as the largest mass grave in the US. To use it as a 'tool' for
debate, or as it was used by the Disclosure organization is, to
me, beneath contempt and a desecration of the memory of those so
recently deceased. Where has your sensitivity gone? Don't tell
me you cannot see how insensitive it is to use that tragic event
the way that Greer's group (and now you by lauding it) is.

I hate to mess with your buzz, but this post from you made me
cringe. More than anything else, your comments/usage of the WTC
tragedy (again!) left an especially bad taste in my mouth. As
intelligent, and for the most part rational adults that we are,
I think we can all agree that that tragedy has _nothing_ to do
with our immediate subject of interest... UFOs. Therefore, it
has no _legitimate_ place in our organizational appeals for
support, _unless_ we are expressing our deepest sympathy for
the victims and their families.

Can we please leave the World Trade Center tragedy out of our
ufological debates/discussions/support appeals? It's
unnecessary. I don't know about anybody else, but it makes me
sick to my stomach to see it come up _this_ way. I have seen and
smelled that still smoldering mass grave. Let me say it again,
that's a _mass_grave_ that you and that rep from the Disclosure
Project have been casually kicking around in your idle
speculations.

Mike Woods expressed his disgust at the way it was _used_ by the
disclosure group. As a thinking, feeling human being, I
whole-heartedly agree with him and I join him in his expression
of outrage at the way this tragedy was opportunistically
employed.

As for Lara Johnstone; all those posts are a part of the public
record (UFO UpDates Archives) and there is no reason to rehash
that _painful_ business again here. We've _wasted_ enough time
and energy on that one. It is best to simply learn from it as
the object lesson that it was to so many of us, and just move
on.

"Don't follow leaders and watch yer parking meters!"


Regards,

John Velez










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                 Re: Australian 'Drury UFO' Film? - Chalker

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:18:38 +1100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:19:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Australian 'Drury UFO' Film? - Chalker


 >From: Leigh Blackmore ><troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:23:01 +1100
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Australian 'Drury UFO' Film?

 >Hello List,

 >I trust everyone had a Merry Christmas.

 >I'm after any information on the Drury UFO film that was
 >allegedly handed to a U.S. Intelligence Agency, by our
 >Australian Government and was subsequently destroyed.

 >Can anyone enlighten me on this alligation, and anything else
 >pertaining to this event.

 >Greatly appreciated.....


Hello Leigh,

I have undertaken a lot of research into this affair. I
published a detailed report in 2 parts (a total of 17 printed
pages) in the Australasian Ufologist Volume 5 No.1 & 2, earlier
this year. The Ufologist is published by Robert Frola and Diane
Harrison and deserves your support. I'm sure back issues are
available via them.

Contact details for them are as follows:

The Australian UFO Research Network AUFORN National Director
E-Mail: AUFORN@hypermax.net.au AUFORN Club Magazine Editor
Robert Frola E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au

Webpage:

http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
http://www.powerup.com.au/~ufologist

Administration:

PO Box 738, Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888

For those interested, I can generate a printed copy with colour
and black & white images, etc., at a cost of $10 that covers
costs, time plus postage. This report prints out to some 31
pages. Contact me via email: bill_c@bigpond.com


Hope this helps. Below I've appended the report abstract and
conclusion.

Best wishes,

Bill Chalker

P.S. The Victorian group PRA, who apparently reads this List,
claim to have further info on the case, but to date have not
shared it with me, or with Diane Harrison of the Ufologist
Magazine. PRA promised a report on the case by John Auchettl by
last October for publication. Perhaps you might have some luck
with them. If so I'm sure we would be interested to see any such
material. I've gone as far as I can. I received the close
co-operation of the Drury family in the preparation of my
report.

-----

The Drury UFO Film Affair

A Study Of A Celebrated Australian Case

by Bill Chalker (Copyright 2000)

The daylight filming of a UFO over Port Moresby, Papua New
Guinea (an Australian territory at the time), during 1953,
became a milestone case for civilian researchers, with its
official investigation and disposition engendering an enduring
controversy about whether it represented evidence for a bona
fide UFO, for an official cover-up or a complex milieu more
indicative mishandling, misrepresentation or misinterpretation.
This study brings together a detailed retrospective
investigation of the affair, utilising official and civilian
information to try to properly reconcile the nature and lessons
of such a historic UFO case.

Conclusion

While a definite identification has not been confirmed, the
object Tom Drury filmed on August 23rd, 1953, over Port Moresby,
might have been a missile. Until certainty is determined, the
Drury silver dart remains an unidentified flying object, a UFO
that has commanded extraordinary attention from official and
civilian circles, been cultivated as the holy grail of ufology,
and been the centre of an extraordinary controversy. I hope this
study has revealed a clearer perspective on this fascinating
affair.


-----











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                         'Aliens Landed On My Farm'

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 06:43:27 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:25:56 -0500
Subject: 'Aliens Landed On My Farm'


List and EBK,

-----

Source: Sunday Herald-Sun - Melbourne, Australia

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3508614%255E2862,0
0.html


30 Dec 2001 - p24.


Aliens Landed On My Farm
by
Jon Ralph


A Victorian farmer believes his property may have been visited
by aliens after finding a mysterious outline in his back
paddock.

John Gleeson discovered the U-shaped mark on the border of his
Yambuk farm last week. The mark has two parallel lines of
withered grass that meet in a horseshoe shape, with lush grass
untouched in the middle.

After thinking at first that it might have resulted from hand
spraying, he reported his discovery to the Victorian UFO
Research Society.

Mr Gleeson said the shape might have been made by a UFO hovering
over his property, or possibly landing on it.

The shape was too perfect to be man-made, he thought.

"Normally with boom spraying, the nettles would be withered to
non-existence," he said. "But when we found it the grass had
died and the nettles had not. It is usually the other way
around."

UFO Research Society investigator Jason Groves told Mr Gleeson
the shape was like another recently found in Mildura.

The society will send an investigator to Mr Gleeson's farm, near
Warrnambool, to examine the mark.

Mr Gleeson said that while he believed it was possible there was
extraterrestrial life, he was a no-nonsense farmer.

"I found it a few days before I reported it and I agonised over
it," he said.

"I thought, 'this will cause publicity if I open my trap'."

"I would like to think I have some ideas that these things do
exist, and there are a lot of sightings, which mean there may be
some substance."

Mr Gleeson's son, Greg, is undecided.

"I really don't know whether it is real or not real. It has
happened. The grass is dead as a maggot," he said.

"It is something I have never seen before. My old man carries on
a bit about it. We thought it needed to be reported to the
experts. I won't make a big fuss of it."

Greg Gleeson, who also lives on the property, said neighbours
did not support the UFO theory.

"They laugh and think it's a joke," he said. "I don't think it's
funny; not when it is your land. I don't know if anyone is
playing a joke."

End

-----

GROUND IMAGE:

http://communities.msn.com/PhenomenaResearchAustralia/shoebox.msnw?action=Sh
owPhoto&PhotoID=4


Contact:

Victorian UFO Research Society
Mr. Jason Groves
vufors@ozemail.com.au

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~vufors/

---

John W. Auchettl
Director - PRA

PRA Web:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2001 - 40 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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                Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:09:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:39:58 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -


 >From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:07:53 -0500

 >Hello Listers,

 >So, evidently some of you were disappointed by the year-end
 >review I did on Errol's show, 'Strange Days... Indeed' last
 >week. Some felt I was too depressed and depressing, too
 >dismissive, too heavily influenced by 9-11.

Dear Woody, Listers, Errol,

 >Too bad.

The phrase is 'tough toenails!'

 >No matter what you call me, I'm still going to think Dieting for
 >Disclosure was nothing more than the kind of childish, hunger
 >strike both my sons tried on me when they were young. They were
 >sent to their rooms. They soon saw the light. Maybe you think we
 >should all buckle under to emotional extortion and blackmail -
 >if so, cure yourself of that belief.

I ran away once from home. I got four blocks and turned around.
Instead of getting sympathy for my surly, never to return
departure, in lieu of the shock and surprise (not to mention
joy) at my early homecoming, my dad was really pissed at me for
being the jerk.

However, I learned from that lesson. Wanna know what I learned?
Always stay the course or you'll get no sympathy and look
stupid. Unnastan, Dan?

 >No matter how much of the more-in-sadness-than-in-anger tone is
 >taken about my intellectual short-comings, I still think the
 >9-11 attacks reduced the UFO Disclosure movement to a small
 >footnote on the political scorecard. If it were any other way,
 >I'd have even less respect for the leaders of the U.S. and
 >Canada... and I don't have much to begin with. Perhaps
 >developing a sense of proportion might help some of you.

Hmmm. Cornspiracy? Hark! Do I hear footprints? Hey, Woody baby,
it's the way of life, eh? Heard a news (Hah!) reporter (make
that mouthpiece or CIA handler) say, "Geez, nobuddy is torkin
about nuttin but dem WTC thingies. Whuteva happened to da
noooss?"

Duh!

 >While I believe there are UFOs visiting earth, I _know_
 >terrorists have flown passenger aircraft into buildings.

How do you know it wasn't the CIA, the Israeli's or the
'Take America Back' movement? Huh?

 >Even the supposed efforts of hardcore researchers can be trivial
 >without my trivializing it. Does anyone really think the fourth
 >or fifth debate about the Alien Autopsy footage makes any of us
 >look bright? Can you point to a single event in the last 12
 >months that moved the UFO issue forward?

Shall we dance instead? Keep on investigating like it was just a
moment ago the thing happened. Else, there is no knowledge. And
every stupid word, phrase and dimbulb, every jerk on the
Internet, every person who voices an opinion - no matter how
good or bad - has advanced the movement. For then we know who
the idiots are and who the good guys are. The more idiots, the
better the rest of the good guys look, eh?

Avanti, Priscilierdi!

 >At the core of the UFO issue is a bonafide mystery, one worthy
 >of scientific research until it's resolved. However, it's acne
 >compared to the cancer that currently threatens the body politic
 >of the West... and if the cancer isn't treated first, it will
 >kill us.

The cancer has metastasized. It has spread to the vital organs.
We have no choice but to apply the chemicals and operate on the
tumors. This is life or death, pal. And we _are_ dying. Time's a
wasting. We'd better hurry.

 >But to be honest, I couldn't care less if anyone agrees with
 >me... or even sees what I'm getting at.

That's because you refuse to join the Gripple Revolution. Try a
Grip. I promise you'll not care _and_ be happy about it. Right
now you are just surly.

 >Hope everyone has a Happy New Year.

Your mouth to God's ears.

 >Mike Woods
 >(No, I won't turn in my licence plates!)

Me needer. Mine say, "MUAD DIB, MENTAT and ARRAKIS!"

 >The Truth can STAY out there...
 >Send in a good FANTASY!!

What the hell have you been doing here after all these years,
Woody? Most of what you hear here is fantasy!

Jim









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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:11:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:26:25 +0000

 >List,

 >Just to give you a little more idea about the man, as a result
 >of my December 27 post here, Karl Pflock has privately
 >threatened me with a lawsuit via e-mail. Birds of a feather
 >Pflock together: Karl, CSICOP, Klass, Moseley... skeptibunkers,
 >and the ethicallly challenged in general.

 >- Dick

Gee, Dick,

That wouldn't have anything to do with your use of the word
purloin, would it?

And for the record, have Klass, CSICOP, and Moseley also
threatened you with lawsuits recently, as in birds of a feather?
Or are you just particularly pissed off and paranoid these days?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Dennis









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                      Uninvited White Things On My Lawn

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:52:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:43:52 -0500
Subject: Uninvited White Things On My Lawn


Dear sirs and Mmes:

All sorts of uninvited hack restaurant reviews and gawd knows
what else wind up on my poor unmowed California lawn.

Its awful really, and mostly my fault for being lazy and too
cheap to hire decent assistancias.

The good part is that the muck just sits there, and does not fly
around causing all sorts of crap like I am now cataloging from
1952 etc.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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             Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:54:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:46:10 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods - McCoy


Hello, all, Mike.

 >From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:07:53 -0500

 >Hello Listers,

 >So, evidently some of you were disappointed by the year-end
 >review I did on Errol's show, 'Strange Days... Indeed' last
 >week. Some felt I was too depressed and depressing, too
 >dismissive, too heavily influenced by 9-11.

 >Too bad.

 >No matter what you call me, I'm still going to think Dieting for
 >Disclosure was nothing more than the kind of childish, hunger
 >strike both my sons tried on me when they were young. They were
 >sent to their rooms. They soon saw the light. Maybe you think we
 >should all buckle under to emotional extortion and blackmail -
 >if so, cure yourself of that belief.

Given that some of us were the recipient of some bizzare E-mail
from she who shall not be mentioned, I agree.

 >No matter how much of the more-in-sadness-than-in-anger tone is
 >taken about my intellectual short-comings, I still think the
 >9-11 attacks reduced the UFO Disclosure movement to a small
 >footnote on the political scorecard. If it were any other way,
 >I'd have even less respect for the leaders of the U.S. and
 >Canada... and I don't have much to begin with. Perhaps
 >developing a sense of proportion might help some of you.

I have a cousin on the USS Cole, plus two Cops and a Fireman in
my family (My cousin was 20 ft. from the blast, saved by a
bulkhead.) Her mom was surprised, but still supportive, when she
re- upped (again) for another tour-on the Cole. All these young
people are not yet 30.

 >While I believe there are UFOs visiting earth, I _know_
 >terrorists have flown passenger aircraft into buildings.

Yet there are some who can't see the motives and even with a
video confession by the perp,-still doubt the obvious. I see
paralells to the UFO phenom too, blatant truth, yet denied or
debunked.

 >Even the supposed efforts of hardcore researchers can be trivial
 >without my trivializing it. Does anyone really think the fourth
 >or fifth debate about the Alien Autopsy footage makes any of us
 >look bright? Can you point to a single event in the last 12
 >months that moved the UFO issue forward?

No, I confess, nothing has changed, even with Monty Greer's
flying circus. I even jumped in on Roswell, something I don't
normally do, and of course, there be more important things now.
Like a fight for Civlization.

Of course, maybe if Greer added somthing like the 'Dead Parrot
Routine'...

 >At the core of the UFO issue is a bonafide mystery, one worthy
 >of scientific research until it's resolved. However, it's acne
 >compared to the cancer that currently threatens the body politic
 >of the West... and if the cancer isn't treated first, it will
 >kill us.

It isn't just politics, govenrments, it is Civilization vs
Barbarity. Light vs Dark. Good vs Evil. Simple enough to
understand if you are willing to see that there are people that
have a dark heart, and are not 'good' by their very nature (
this goes for the UFO community -in spades) who, for their own
agenda, are willing to destroy everthing that exsists.

Of course, there are the good guys-and gals too, who are willing
to take the heat and bullets for a just cause, and I'm not
talking UFO's here, but in a small way it does apply, but to
take up the fight for what is a battle of good vs evil affects
us all, and Mike, you have at least one who agrees with you.

 >But to be honest, I couldn't care less if anyone agrees with
 >me... or even sees what I'm getting at.

I've been re-reading Tolkien's 'Ring' Trilogy after seeing the
movie, and whether it's due to the (I'm not a Jungian) for lack
of a better word the "Zeitgiest" of the times, which applied to
Tolkien's world at the time of the writing of the 'Lord of the
Rings' which was the rise and fall of the diabolical Third
Reich. Now, we are in a simular fight, with one who cares not
one whit about human life or liberty. We can only hope that his
last view of this world was a cloud of dust and smoke from a
'Daisy Cutter' blast as it rushed down upon him like the
collapsing Twin Towers did on so may innocents and Heros.

I too, hope everyone on this list,(and I am thankful we have a
great, free North America to express ourselves in) have a happy
and prosperous, and safe New Year.


GT McCoy

"Not all who wander are lost"- Tolkien










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                Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:08:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:48:40 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -


 >From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:07:53 -0500

Hello all,

<snip>

 >At the core of the UFO issue is a bonafide mystery, one worthy
 >of scientific research until it's resolved. However, it's acne
 >compared to the cancer that currently threatens the body politic
 >of the West... and if the cancer isn't treated first, it will
 >kill us.

<snip>

This "cancer" is neither current nor new. It's a chronic
condition that has been with the West since, lemme see, the
British Empire?

Selfish leadership by a small portion of rich - very rich -
people, at the expense of the general public necessarily leads
to what we see today. Not only today, mind you, but yesterday,
and the day before, and the years before, and the decades
before.

The present crisis may just prevent _those_ guys from doing
their job: they _can't_ be bothered by poverty, social issues,
education, welfare, health.

The catch is that, in the absence of the present crisis, they
wouldn't be doing their job either.

Attend a cocktail at your preferred embassy or just booze around
with your favorite politician and tell me what you see.

The UFO mystery in all of this? The absence of solution is the
symptom of a society not oriented towards truth but towards
pretentiousness to truth.

For that reason, we are talking about free countries with an
increasingly larger chasm between the ones who have and the ones
who have not, advanced societies that reserve education mainly
to the high class, and a free press that's not free at all but
has long lost the sense of its own purpose, playing the part of
the illusionist.

<snip>

 >The Truth can STAY out there...
 >Send in a good FANTASY!!

<snip>

Turn on the TV at CNN or get $14 for the drink and the pop corn
and go see "Lord of the Rings".

Fantasies with a twist... One is done for your pleasure, the
other at your expense.

Regards,









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                Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:32:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:51:04 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:01:13 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J.Woods
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:32:56 -0600

 >Hello Alfred, hi All,

 >This post from you is really for Mike Woods to respond to. I
 >didn't want to jump in before Mike could speak for himself, but
 >you've made a couple of statements that I'd like to respond to
 >if I may.

Disapproved! Resubmit in 30 days for final disapproval! <g>.

 >>... Listened to Errol's year end SDI wrap up of 2001* with the
 >>usually much appreciated Mr. M.J.Woods via VSN, and was
 >>respectfully disappointed with the cant of the entire segment.

 >That's allowed Alfred. The 'point' of the editorial
 >reports/commentaries is to hopefully stimulate people into
 >thinking about the subject. A 'Year End Wrap-Up' can be an
 >expression of the commentators own takes/views. There are no
 >rules which dictate that it must consist of a straight or even
 >unbiased presentation. And... not everybody is going to like or
 >agree with everything that is said. Woods is allowed to do his
 >thing and you are allowed to disagree, or not to like it.

This must have been for the casual observer Johnny. It was
carrying coal to Newcastle for me. I had this understanding well
couched.

 >As for Woods, whether I agree with what he is saying or not... I
 >always appreciate his input. Mike is an honest, intelligent man
 >and an experienced journalist.

No argument here. I'm enamored with Woods and everybody else in
the line-up... even that Coffee bush bangin' Juan Valdez
character...

 >Because of that I am
 >"respectfully disappointed" in _your_ statements about him.

...But WHOA! Forgetting for a moment that this seems to
contradict what you had lectured in a preceding paragraph, I was
on my very best behavior (I think you can tell), did not make
any statement that pandered to fallacy or utter a deconstructive
statement about him. His commentary seemed canted and biased and
I remarked on it, s'all. I'm respectfully disappointed that
you're respectfully disappointed.

 >>I would suggest that Mr. Woods let the ninth month color his
 >>entire summation and that he was needlessly cynical with regard
 >>to more than a few of the year's events.

 >Yeah well, that's kind of understandable isn't it? Hasn't it
 >colored your own life in a discernable way? I know it has
 >colored mine.

Yes -- but I would make more of an effort, respectfully <g>, not
to let that color bleed into my journalistic and broadcast
responsibilities. My sensibilities are as smudged as yours are,
perhaps more so with a son now on active military deployment,
and myself in a position (as a regular Army officer on temporary
retired status) where I could be called up to fight at any time.
I have to try as hard, maybe harder than you to keep my eyes on
the prize. It's worth the trying.

 >What I really object to is the following:

 >>Regarding "speakers that are provocative and then surprised when
 >>people are provoked..." There is much that is provocative and an
 >>abundance of people to be justly or unjustly provoked, but there
 >>is much more "beneath contempt" than the almost universally (and
 >>perhaps even righteously) detested Dr. Greer and his frank
 >>admonition that the events of September 11th might have been
 >>precluded by a more timely ufological disclosure. I don't think
 >>that Greer's admonition is that far off the mark, requires
 >>little stretch in the covering, and I wrote, early on, the exact
 >>same thing on UpDates, months ago. In fact, I think Greer copped
 >>the thought from _me_.

 >>I consider it regrettably inaccurate that Mr. Woods feels "the
 >>linkage to be offensive," and the "notion to be ludicrous," even
 >>IF Dr. Greer _can_ "be found to be dismissible." My take is
 >>that if we knew that we were being observed from space by
 >>intelligent beings we'd clean up our entire cultural act,
 >>toot-sweet. People don't commit crimes when they know they're
 >>being observed. This includes running loaded passenger craft
 >>into sky scrapers and any process, philosophy, or real-politick
 >>that might have helped precipitate that egregious act.

 >Let me tell you what I consider to be an "egregious act".

 >There is a black, smoking hole in the middle of _my_ hometown,
 >(I was born and raised on the island of Manhattan) that doubles
 >as the largest mass grave in the US.

...Wasn't that the exact egregious act I identified in _my_
paragraph, John?

 >To use it as a 'tool' for
 >debate, or as it was used by the Disclosure organization is, to
 >me, beneath contempt and a desecration of the memory of those so
 >recently deceased.

I don't speak for Greer, but I meant and stand by exactly what I
said. I'd back down (you've seen me do it), but I think I have
the moral high ground, and I reject a suggestion (would resent
it from anyone else) that I make that statement merely to win a
point in the continuing debate. It's not a mere debate to me.
It's a discussion on our quality, our validity, and our way of
life. Forget Greer. A disclosure regarding the ufological would
provide for a new expansive way of looking at things that would
likely preclude the kind of horror that went regrettably down in
your home town. If you thought about it dispassionately, I think
that you'd agree.

 >Where has your sensitivity gone?

My sensitivity is where it always is. Where has your
_objectivity_ gone? You're over 50, hoss, and embroiled with the
contrived and manipulated hoo-rah a little like a rank teenager.
There's a little more to this than Rupert Murdoch and his "Fox
Friends" would let on.

 >Don't tell
 >me you cannot see how insensitive it is to use that tragic event
 >the way that Greer's group (and now you by lauding it) is.

...who "lauds" John? I made a rational observation, before
Greer, I believe. Where was your critique when I wrote this
months ago? Moreover, do you really think you're painting me
with a fair brush? Aren't you trying to discredit my position
with an association that will occur only in what _you_ are
writing about it. I'm not aligned with the devil, I'm not
agreeing with Greer, though he may agree with me -- that's not
my problem.

 >I hate to mess with your buzz, but this post from you made me
 >cringe.

...your post to me has me matching you cringe for cringe, and my
"buzz" is un-messable.

 >More than anything else, your comments/usage of the WTC
 >tragedy (again!) left an especially bad taste in my mouth.

I regret that you took it that way. Here, have a cyber Certs,
seriously.

 >As
 >intelligent, and for the most part rational adults that we are,
 >I think we can all agree that that tragedy has _nothing_ to do
 >with our immediate subject of interest... UFOs.

No dude! I thinks it's wrapped up part and parcel. I don't think
that you _can_ parse the one out from the other. I think they
are entertained so inextricably that it might become obvious to
all eventually that the forced separation of them only leads to
the... not getting to the bottom of EITHER of them... _any_ of
them. The tragedy came as a result of ignorance all around,
ignorance created and then exacerbated by crass religious
fundamentalism and the moderates that don't keep that
fundamentalism in check and under control. That ignorance has
many different heads, but only one heart. I would address that
one heart, rip it from the chest of the aggregate ignorance, and
dash it beneath my feet.

 >Therefore, it
 >has no _legitimate_ place in our organizational appeals for
 >support, _unless_ we are expressing our deepest sympathy for
 >the victims and their families.

I have nothing but the deepest sympathy (no... empathy. I've
BEEN to war...) for the victims and their families. So? Perhaps
I can count on the surviving victims and their families to say a
caddish for my son and I when we march off to fight this CURRENT
war for the justification of the contrived ignorance that
created it... creates them all, and then return home in
subsequent body bags?

 >Can we please leave the World Trade Center tragedy out of our
 >ecological debates/discussions/support appeals? It's
 >unnecessary.

I won't if nobody else does, and I'm very hesitant to rule
_anything_ out as unnecessary. I don't want to hurt feelings,
but I do want to cut to the chase.

 >I don't know about anybody else, but it makes me
 >sick to my stomach to see it come up _this_ way. I have seen and
 >smelled that still smoldering mass grave.

Yeah -- I _know_ what they smell like. And you know, they smell
the same way to everybody, whenever they occur, and where ever
they are. They are not more horrible, smell any worse, or
provoke more stomach distress because they happen to someone
personally. You're smelling the history of the ignorant world up
close and personal. Somebody, somewhere is going to smell that
smell until we make the ignorance as endangered a snail darter.
I regret that it's you smelling it now, truly. But somebody's
gonna smell it.

 >Let me say it again,
 >that's a _mass_grave_ that you and that rep from the Disclosure
 >Project have been casually kicking around in your idle
 >speculations.

...Uncalled for, John. I don't make idle speculations, there is
nothing "casual" about my approach, and what I kick deserves the
kicking. You KNOW that, and have known it since 96.

 >Mike Woods expressed his disgust at the way it was _used_ by the
 >disclosure group. As a thinking, feeling human being, I
 >whole-heartedly agree with him and I join him in his expression
 >of outrage at the way this tragedy was opportunistically
 >employed.

Say what you want about Greer, John, but try to remember that
you and I are supposed to have a better history. You err to put
us in the same box. I won't be there next time you look.

 >As for Lara Johnstone; all those posts are a part of the public
 >record (UFO UpDates Archives) and there is no reason to rehash
 >that _painful_ business again here. We've _wasted_ enough time
 >and energy on that one. It is best to simply learn from it as
 >the object lesson that it was to so many of us, and just move
 >on.

I wouldn't have said a word...

 >"Don't follow leaders and watch yer parking meters!"

OK! Some levity! So you still love me then? Then love my
consistency, love my focus, love my ability to have a tested
conviction. I'll do the same for you.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:33:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:53:03 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Hall


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: New Year Agenda
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000

 >>The issue of Roswell (or for UFOs as possible visitors from
 >>elsewhere) will not be solved by cynicism, prematurely assuming
 >>you have all the answers, and digging in of heels. In saying
 >>this, I particularly have in mind the recent cynical comments by
 >>Dennis Stacy and the presumptuous and condescending remarks of
 >>Karl Pflock, whose adoption of Jim Moseley as his "standard" of
 >>serious UFO research tells us all we need to know about him. The
 >>Roswell incident (or incidents) has been beclouded by a clash of
 >>giant egos, the moral equivalent of "disinformation" (phony
 >>witnesses, dishonest activities driven by something other than
 >>an objective search for the truth), and by skeptibunker
 >>propaganda ploys that would make Joseph Goebbels look like a
 >>rank amateur.

 >Dick,

 >I take exception to your remarks as far as they pertain to me
 >personally. If you'll reread my most recent remarks, you'll see
 >that I was responding to someone who made completely cynical and
 >conspiratorial  remarks about the test dummies. I didn't say I
 >accepted or supported the AF point of view -- I merely pointed
 >out that there was another way of looking at it, regardless of
 >whether one agreed with it or not. Now I'm in league with Karl
 >Pflock!

Dennis,

You throw up clouds of swamp gas here, which I will endeavor to
penetrate. My comments are interspersed (some items deleted).

 >So who's the cynic here? Obviously, you equate cynicism and
 >disinformation with anyone who might be inclined to accept any
 >Air Force statements to the effect that they really *don't* have
 >a crashed flying saucer and alien corpses in their possession.

First off, I was not aware that being called a cynic was all
that big an insult. If you take it that way, I apologize. I am
cynical about many facets of modern life, but not UFOs.
"Cynical" (Webster's Third Intl): "Given to or affecting
disbelief in commonly accepted human values and in man's
sincerity of motive or rectitude of conduct...exhibiting
feelings ranging from distrustful doubt [hell, I do that all the
time!] to contemptuous and mocking disbelief...often implies a
disbelief in sincerity, benevolence, rectitude, or
competence..." I'll leave it to list members to decide whether
the shoe fits your postings over the past year or so.

 >Your pompous piety and appeals to "tolerance for ambiguity" are
 >beginning to wear a bit thin. The fact of the matter, as you
 >well know, is that it is damnably difficult to disprove a
 >negative. When, for example, will you agree that I've stopped
 >beating my wife?

Have you really stopped beating your wife? (Just kidding!)
"Pompous piety" eh? Sounds like something Moseley or Pflock
would say about me in his filthy rag. I have not asked you to
prove a negative. However, you appear to be claiming to have
done so. Roswell is dead! No further investigation required.

 >The indisputable fact of the matter is that your mind is just as
 >made up as those you criticize of cynicism (or worse). There is
 >nothing, nothing, _nothing_ that could be discovered or
 >uncovered, published or revealed, that would or ever could
 >dissuade you of the fact that nothing unusual occurred at
 >Roswell and that, in fact, the AF has not had alien bodies on
 >ice for the last 50+ years. Not the McCoy document, not Kent
 >Lorenzo's [I hope I have the name right] testimony to the
 >contrary, not the exposure of one after another less than honest
 >"eyewitness" -- in short, nothing.

I dispute your indisputable comments. My call for
open-mindedness, continued investigation, tolerance of ambiguity
is equated with a "made up mind?" Sounds pretty, er, cynical to
me. I don't know what the hell crashed at or near Roswell but I
am morally certain that it was not Krash Test Dummies or Mogul
balloons. What could dissuade me that nothing unusual occurred
there (i.e., prove a negative)? Full debriefing of all the
relevant witnesses and wrappping up all the loose ends by
relatively objective investigators and finding some disproof or
a total lack of supporting evidence. The McCoy document sure as
hell doesn't disprove anything, and I guess you are referring to
Kent Jeffrey's badly flawed screed.

 >I just wish you would dispense with the hypocrisy of pretending
 >to occupy the objective high-ground - when your own mind is
 >most emphatically and demonstrably made up. After all, you've
 >talked to Roswell witnesses!

Again, very Moseley-Pflock-like and disappointing coming from
you. As a matter of fact, I am being far more objective than
you, certainly, who decries the job of being required to prove a
negative but implicitly claims to have done so. And your last
sentence is pure, unadulterated sarcasm/cynicism.

 >As if I (or anyone else) had some sort of role in the creation
 >of the Kauffmanns, Dennises, Corsos, Rowes, Andersons, and
 >others out there.

I gather that your logic is as follows: Some witnesses have made
false or innacurate statements, therefore no witnesses are
trustworthy. Again, sounds very cynical to me. If you get one or
two false witnesses in a criminal trial, does that trump the
reliable witnesses?

 >Who's dissembling who here? Do you _know_? Of course not, but
 >that's hardly an impediment to your pretending as if you did. So
 >what do we outsiders take as our 'veracity' barometer re.
 >Roswell? The fact of whether the great, objective, non-cynical
 >Dick Hall happened to interview a particular 'witness' or not?
 >Have you been able to convince, say, Stanton Friedman, or for
 >that matter, Don Berliner, that Gerald Anderson just may not be
 >the most reliable person on the planet? I thought not.

Nasty, nasty! It is not my job to convince anyone anything here,
and I am not a Roswell "specialist." My stance on the case can
be read in The UFO Evidence, Volume II. One of your many false
assumptions here is that Don Berliner still supports Anderson.
He disowned him as a reliable witness long ago in public
remarks, but apparently you missed that. I disagree openly with
Stan Friedman on this issue and on many other things, and have
said so.

 >>The only way to arrive at a meaningful conclusion about Roswell
 >>(and UFOs as visitors from elsewhere) is to thoroughly
 >>investigate all leads (quite a few central witnesses remain to
 >>be questioned on the record), expose hoaxes or false
 >>information, and to continue the search for historical
 >>documentation or the lack thereof. To assume that the final
 >>answer has been established is totally unjustified.

 >So, have you talked to Kent Lorenzo? For that matter, have you
 >talked to anyone who claimed to have been at Roswell at the time
 >and who didn't testify to anything untoward taking place? And
 >you publicized same... where?

Again, do you mean Kent Jeffrey? Many of us analyzed his Roswell
debunking article and published responses to it pointing out
many flaws. Apparently you missed those too. And again, your
logic is very strange. Sounds like something Phill Klass (guilt
by association not intended) said once about Socorro. Since some
old geezer he interviewed lived or was staked out near the site
and didn't see anything, nothing unusual happened at Socorro.
Potential witnesses who weren't trump witnesses who were.

 >>Unlike some of the armchair pundits, I have talked with Walter
 >>Haut, viewed his videotaped testimony about bodies (which Pflock
 >>cynically writes off as "false memory"), met and talked with
 >>members of Sheriff Wilcox's family, etc. Among the more
 >>honorable Roswell researchers has been Kevin Randle, who (like
 >>all of us) was surprised to learn that his colleague Don Schmitt
 >>was somewhat ethically deprived (as is Pflock when it comes to
 >>purloined tapes). Randle immediately acknowledged the problem
 >>and proceeded to set the record straight, taking great pains to
 >>repair the damage. I will not at present go into further detail,
 >>except to say that Randle has acted very honorably in this
 >>matter and has continued to do important research in a careful
 >>and objective manner. Pflock, by contrast, has been on the cusp
 >>of debunking all along and his Roswell book apparently could
 >>only be published by the "CSICOP Press." That also tells us
 >>something very important. In the CSICOP view, we know in advance
 >>that it can't be true; therefore no further investigation is
 >>necessary.

 >People talked to Anderson, Kaufmann, Rowe, Ragsdale, and Dennis,
 >too. Unfortunately, it didn't render the former anymore truthful
 >for it.

Yes, bad or unconvincing witnesses trump good or reliable
witnesses.

 >>It all comes down to that marvelous psychology concept of
 >>"Tolerance for ambiguity." I see enough smoke about Roswell to
 >>suspect an underlying conflagration, and we won't know for sure
 >>one way or the other with out a lot more careful, thorough,
 >>objective investigation by people without obvious axes to grind
 >>or track records of game-playing. I am willing to wait it out
 >>and to hope for new findings that will shed light on the issues.
 >>Unlike the skeptibunkers, I do not feel compelled to assert
 >>final answers until more can be learned by following up on the
 >>many loose ends.

 >No, of course you don't. While asserting your own final answer
 >and accusing anyone who dares differ with charges ranging from
 >cynicism and game-playing to disinformation, and so on. (Which
 >takes us back to: what evidence would persuade you that nothing
 >untoward happened at Roswell? It would almost have to be
 >government evidence/documents at this point, wouldn't it? But,
 >wait: we all know what you think of gov't documents and denials,
 >as in not to be trusted. So you'll always have an "out." Lucky
 >man, you! No more McCoy-like docs need apply, presumably however
 >persuasive.)

What final answer did I assert? This paragraph is chock-full of
false assumptions (some of them in very, er, cynical language)
which I won't even bother to rebut.

 >Put another way, name someone who disagrees with your current
 >assessment of Roswell who is open-minded, non-cynical,
 >non-disinformative, and, by all appearances, not a planted mole.
 >(As we could never know for sure, could we?)

My comments about your cynicism were not even specially or
specifically directed at your views on Roswell, but they
certainly apply there as well. I'm sure a lot of open-minded,
etc., witnesses think Roswell has been solved or is a non-issue.
I think Tom Deuley feels that way (altough I can't put words in
his mouth). I think Kent Jeffrey is quite an honest and
reputable guy who has now lost his previous objectivity and
declared the case dead. But I don't accuse him of
disinformation. Just of being mistaken, as you think I am.

 >I understand it may be a short list, but try, anyway.
 >In other words... do you and Roswell have _any_ honorable
 >critics? Or just pond scum?

 >Please be objective, open-minded, and tolerant of ambiguity in
 >your response. Like the rest of us (who are apparently none of
 >the above) are supposed to be.
 >There, I knew you could do it!

Whew! Such contemptuous and mocking disbelief. - Dick










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                          Re: Aurora 1897 - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:23:05 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:55:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Aurora 1897 - Aubeck


 >From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
 >Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:04:56 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:54:24 -0400
 >Subject: AURORA 1897

 >Dear List members,

 >I'm very interested by the "pre-arnoldian" UFO
 >history (I have published a book in France about
 >it: "Autrefois les OVNI..."(1998)) and I was
 >thinking that the famous 1897 "Aurora, Texas
 >Crash" was nothing more than an hoax.

 >But I found in Jim Marrs' "Alien Agenda" some
 >new info about that case which seems a little
 >disturbing and which throws a new light on the
 >Aurora story. Jim Marrs have found and interviewed
 >at the beginning of the seventies one witness
 >present in 1897, a man named Charlie C. Stephens,
 >who stated that the story of the crash was true.
 >This contradicts the affirmation that all the
 >very few witness found by modern researchers said
 >that it was an hoax.

<snip>

 >Best wishes,

 >RDN

Dear List members,

When this was posted here back in 1999 it brought up an
interesting point: the fact that Jim Marrs has published
information from three or four witnesses that seems to
corroborate the Aurora tale (the letter quoted above only
mentions the most interesting of these, Charlie Stephens.)

See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/may/m23-018.shtml

The replies Mr. Nolane received, from Kevin Randle:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/may/m24-011.shtml

and Jerome Clark:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/may/m26-002.shtml

give a more or less balanced view of the case, and I am inclined
to agree with them. Anyone familiar with the kind of articles
being published in America towards the end of the 19th century
would be naturally sceptical of a tale about an alien aircraft
crashing into a windmill.

However, what concerns me is the fact that Marrs _does_ present
the views of people from the area that give the impression that
something did actually take place, and this "new information"
was not dealt with by either Randle or Clark in their replies.

I do not want to open up the whole "Aurora UFO crash" debate
again, but I do think the issue of Marrs' alleged witness
testimonies has been very conveniently ignored. If he was lying
in his book, which seems on the face of it unlikely, how might
this be shown? If not, what should we make of the evidence he
presents?

(Marrs' book is widely available and I don't think I need to
reproduce long fragments from it here.)

Sincerely,

Chris Aubeck










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                  Re: Bottom Line on Walter Haut - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:27:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:00:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Bottom Line on Walter Haut - Connors


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:21:26 EST
 >UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Bottom Line On Walter Haut

<snip>

 >4) I predict that when the Oral History becomes public all the
 >    researchers who didn't get a chance to view and see the
 >    history will belittle and debunk everything in it for the
 >    usual assortment of reasons, stories and so forth. We will be
 >    treated to tales about how Walter's reasons (which may have
 >    been totally heartfelt by him) were really wrong, misleading
 >    and why he was a total liar.

 >5) Speculating about the contents of Walt's Oral history
 >    interview is similar to a newspaper speculating and
 >    theorizing about the contents of a classified document,
 >    without actually seeing what was written in the document. The
 >    bottom line is no matter what or who says what, the
 >    information won't be available for awhile.

<snip>

 >While many people seem captivated with the idea of 'Well Walt
 >didn't tell the story earlier, so all this is age, or
 >misleading, or tall tale telling.'

Robert,

Perhaps your thoughts above are the forboding elements yet to
come. Many have certainly been vociferous enough already to
condemn in half-truths, etc, unshamelessly, in order for the few
to pompously prance in their own egotistical foppery in order to
convince themselves that they are the masters of that which no
other persons should be allowed to contemplate or bear witness.

I am no longer sure the more congregate of crypto-aeronautics
deserve that which would be revealed, strictly from the previous
assasination of credibility, in regard to knowledge or
enlightenment that might be shared.

Therefore, I am pulling in my public involvement with
crypto-aeronautics and will, from this point forward, keep my
work, research and discoveries private. Shared with only the
closest associates I trust. Most of my work and archives will be
available publicly only after my death and in the interim, by
invitation only. This will be my last post to UFO UpDates.

Wendy Connors










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   Dec > Dec 31

                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:42:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:01:51 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Clark


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:52:58 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:25:55 -0600

 >>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Dennis,

 >I'm surprised at you. That "last point has been conclusively
 >established"? Conclusively established? By whom and when?
 >"Settled, in the affirmative"? By whom and when? Cite
 >references, please. You've already admitted that you lost track
 >of your own LGM exclusive.

 >Did I miss something?

I wouldn't presume to speak for you. Perhaps you've been reading
a different thread from the one I'm following, which pretty much
turns 1947-era "green men", little or otherwise, into a dead
issue. We now know that Brazel _could_ have said something like
that. The more interesting questions remaining are (1) if he did
so and (2) if so, what that may imply.

 >The good news is that you'll get a comp copy of TA10.

Thanks. The Anomalist is one of my very favorite Fortean
publications, one of the few I read from cover to cover. Yes,
you can quote me.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark












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                Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:38:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:03:27 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods -


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:01:13 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI Wrap-Up Of 2001 With Mr. M.J. Woods

 >There is a black, smoking hole in the middle of _my_ hometown,
 >(I was born and raised on the island of Manhattan) that doubles
 >as the largest mass grave in the US. To use it as a 'tool' for
 >debate, or as it was used by the Disclosure organization is, to
 >me, beneath contempt and a desecration of the memory of those so
 >recently deceased. Where has your sensitivity gone? Don't tell
 >me you cannot see how insensitive it is to use that tragic event
 >the way that Greer's group (and now you by lauding it) is.


How do you know Greer is trying to 'use' the 9/11 disaster as a
'tool' for debate? And why do you put quotation marks around the
word 'tool' as if you are quoting Greer actually saying that was
his intent? Maybe he's just expressing an opinion (albeit a very
biased one, IMO). If anyone is engaging in cynical exploitation
of the tragedy, it's the Bush administration with its assertions
that the events of 9/11 justify the need for a 100-billion
dollar star-wars defense that most likely won't work against a
nuclear missile attack that most likely will never happen.
Attempting to panic American taxpayers into unreasoned support
for a program that will only enrich defense contractors and big
campaign contributors is what I would consider to be beneath
contempt.

Greer's perceived linkage of compartmentalized technology that
has not been proven to exist to the terrorist attack is, in my
opinion, extremely tenuous. But it still makes a heck of a lot
more sense than the supposed linkage between the star wars
defense against ICBMs and nuts armed with box cutters and
plastic explosives in their shoes.









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                 Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:37:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:06:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:12:39 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >>At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >>showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >>Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >>On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >>I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >>older work?

 >Its nice that Menzel had a "Definitive Explanation" for the UFO
 >phenomenon. I sure don't.


A boring and simplistic read. And Menzel never did. Another
spook with an agenda?

Don









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                          The Measure Of Dick Hall

From: Ktperehwon@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:12:07 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:12:17 -0500
Subject: The Measure Of Dick Hall


Dear Fellow List Fiends -

First, an apology to all for having started this virtual
shouting match with an mildly intemperate taunt directed at Dick
Hall. I can only plead "all too human." The simple truth is
that, while I have great respect and admiration for Dick Hall's
contributions to ufology and, ironically, agree with him on far
more ufological issues than I disagree, I can't stand the man
personally. Obviously, he feels the same about me. It's
unfortunate personalities have to get in the way of collegial
discussion of important substantive issues. I'll do my best to
avoid contributing such unneeded and debilitating heat to this
list in the future (honest, Errol. I will!).

Second, I had hoped to have ended this thread with my last
posting, but Dick found it necessary once again to overstep the
bounds of good manners and good sense with the following
posting:


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:26:25 +0000

 >List,

 >Just to give you a little more idea about the man, as a result
 >of my December 27 post here, Karl Pflock has privately
 >threatened me with a lawsuit via e-mail. Birds of a feather
 >Pflock together: Karl, CSICOP, Klass, Moseley... skeptibunkers,
 >and the ethicallly challenged in general.

 >- Dick

So I'm left with no choice but to respond. Rest assured that
this is my final word (here) on this matter. Note that, as Errol
has reminded me, legal and ethical considerations prevent me
from quoting directly from private communications I've received
from Dick and Don Berliner, so I am constrained to paraphrase. I
assure List members that my paraphrasing accurately represents
both the tone and substance of these communications. If Dick and
Don think otherwise, they need only post their unexpurgated
messages to me on UpDates. Now then...

On 28 Dec, I sent this off-list message to Dick:

"MR. HALL - Quoting from your 27dec01 post to UFO UpDates,
which I've retained for future reference if necessary:

"'Among the more honorable Roswell researchers has been Kevin
Randle [I most definitely agree - KTP], who (like all of us) was
surprised to learn that his colleague Don Schmitt was somewhat
ethically deprived (as is Pflock when it comes to purloined
tapes).'

"Look who's calling whom ethically deprived! Don't push it,
buster, or you'll find yourself on the short end of a very
unpleasant and expensive legal action. - Most sincerely, KARL
PFLOCK"

To this Dick replied (same date) with a childish retort of the
sort most of us left off of in junior high school, but which
those of us who know the private, real Dick well have come to
expect from him at the slightest provocation.

To which I oh-so-maturely responded (same date): "How very
mature of you..."

Obviously, what's at issue is Dick's subtle attempt to raise
questions in list members' minds about my integrity: "as is
Pflock when it comes to purloined tapes." Here's what's behind
this sleazy and baseless canard:

(1) When I was conducting my Roswell research under a grant from
the Fund for UFO Research, Fred Whiting, then an officer and
board member of the Fund, loaned me the Fund's collection of
uncut videotape interviews with Roswell witnesses and
"witnesses" so that I would have the benefit of full knowledge
of what these people had to say and how they said it.

(2) On February 29, 1996, I returned ALL tapes to the Fund
through Dick Hall, then chairman of the Fund.

(3) More than three years later, on June 15, 1999, in response
to a request from Tom Tulien and Jan Aldrich for a listing of
the materials in my UFO library and research files for inclusion
in the Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group UFO History
Workshop, I sent Tom and Jan a very hastily written e-mail
message summarizing my holdings. With reference to my Roswell
materials, I wrote: "...includes complete set of all uncut
videos of Roswell witnesses and 'witnesses' done by and for
FUFOR." I hit the Send button without reviewing what I'd
written. Had I taken a couple of moments to check my words, I
would have caught my error and rewitten thus: "includes research
notes taken while viewing...," etc. Haste makes waste (and
worse!).

(4) On Sept. 11, 1999, I recieved a remarkably intemperate - no,
downright nasty and threatening - letter (dated Aug. 31) from
Don Berliner, Dick's successor as Fund chairman. Don advised
that he'd been told I had a complete set of the Fund Roswell
interview tapes and was planning to make copies available to
Sign Historical Group Workshop participants. He then ranted that
I had no right to the tapes and that Fred Whiting had no
authority to loan them to me and had done so without the
knowledge of his Fund colleagues. (Hmmm... I had a Fund grant to
investigate Roswell, but it was inappropriate to make available
to me important primary research materials possessed by the
Fund?)

He went on to tell me that if I didn't immediately return all
copies of the tapes, the Fund would take legal action against
me. To underscore the Fund's resolve, he pointed out that such
action had been taken against Steven Greer for distributing
copies of a UFO Research Coalition publication.

Don and I know each other fairly well and have even worked
together on some aspects of Roswell. Yet instead of approaching
me like a colleague, inquiring if the information he had was
accurate - it wasn't in any respect - and, if so, noting that it
appeared that I'd forgotten the tapes were Fund property and to
please return them, he assumed the worst and acted the bully.

(5) On Sept. 11, '99, I replied to Berliner in part:

"For the record: (1) Fred Whiting, in his capacity as an officer
and member of the board of the Fund, loaned the Fund Roswell
witness/'witness' tapes to me as research material for use
during my Fund-supported Roswell investigation. Clearly, this
was entirely proper and appropriate to the work I was doing on
behalf of the Fund. (2) On February 29, 1996..., I returned all
Fund tapes to the Fund via Dick Hall at the Fund post office box
address. (3) With the return of the Fund tapes, I no longer had
any Fund property of any sort in my possession and have not
since. I regret my haste in preparing information designed to
facilitate cooperation and information sharing among colleagues
led to this misunderstanding and trust this letter and its
enclosures, as well as my action today to straighten things out
with the SHG folks [e-mail correcting the reference to the
tapes; see corrected information on p. 197, Proceedings], will
bring this matter to a close.

"It is unfortunate you chose to be so confrontational and
threatening in your initial communication to me. School-
yard-style bluster and threats of legal action are hardly the
way to begin addressing such an issue with a colleague or, for
that matter, anyone else. However, since you chose such a
course, I feel it is incumbent upon me to put you on notice that
I will not hesitate to take legal action against you personally
and, if appropriate, the Fund and its officers and board should
it come to my attention that you or anyone associated with the
Fund have made any utterances of any kind in any context calling
into question my honor, integrity, and professionalism with
respect to the Fund tapes and my use of them. I regret the
necessity for the foregoing statement, but I've suffered enough
blackguarding at the hands of ufological paranoids, fools, and
opportunists [believer & debunker alike], and I'm not about to
take any such from you without exacting a heavy price."

This is where the matter stood until Dick chose to insinuate it
into his ad hominem attack on me here on UpDates, thus
precipitating my "have a care" message to him.

There is no doubt that Dick Hall is fully aware of all of the
foregoing. He knows damn' well there was nothing underhanded or
in the least out of line involved. His and Don's problem is that
I, a Fund grantee, had arrived at the "wrong" conclusions about
Roswell.

I leave it to List members to decide for themselves how Dick and
I measure up ethically.


Sincerely,


KARL









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                    Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:20:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:14:36 -0500
Subject: Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hall



On Strange Days... Indeed Saturday night we briefly discussed an
idea I suggested based on Don C. Donderi's chapter in 'UFOs &
Abductions' (University of Kansas Press, 2000). There he states
and discusses the thesis that, "Science is not the only
profession that collects and analyzes evidence." In analyzing
the "almost complete rejection of the UFO evidence by
scientists" he argues that because of its narrow approach the
scientific enterprise is ill-equipped to deal with UFO reports
and that the approaches of lawyers and military intelligence
analysts are more appropriate. I think this is a very important
insight.

Based on it, I am throwing out for comment and discussion the
idea of establishing a fact-finding commission to analyze UFO
data. In broad outline, it would include a Board of Directors
(or Commissioners) of prominent citizens whose names and
reputations would ensure respect and news media attention. (This
served NICAP well in the 1960s and 1970s as did something
approximating a military intelligence network.) Teams of
"Presenters" with legal or military intelligence analysis
background and training would periodically appear before the
Commissioners in a public forum and present data and analysis on
UFO sightings (recent when possible, and collective historical
cases). The Commissioners would question the Presenters in a
judicial manner. At some point they would, like every study
commission ever formed, develop and publish a report and
recommendations on how to proceed.

Your comments are invited.


  - Dick Hall








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   Dec > Dec 31

                       Marcia Smith On Future of Space

From: sqquishy@altavista.com
Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:24:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:16:29 -0500
Subject: Marcia Smith On Future of Space


I am quite sorry that my good friend Jimmy Oberg did not E-mail
me, and tell me that he and Marcia Smith would be guests on
December 27 on the radio show "Face the Nation," which is
broadcast on National Public Radio. I hear that Jimmy is about
to become a regular on the Rense show, so I hope he can bring
his friend Marcia to appear with him from time to time.

Jimmy should know we all don't have the time he has to search
around on the Internet. I would have liked to have asked Marcia
about the "real future of space," that she discovered in her two
UFO reports for President Carter. I have posted the following
message to the discussion board at NPR so all their listeners
will know exactly what they missed:

I was very sorry to have missed this show on future NASA make
work projects. I would like to have had the chance to question
guest Marcia Smith. For readers who are not aware Marcia Smith
was the lady who on behalf of the Science and Technology
Committee in the House, prepared two reports for President Jimmy
Carter. One was on UFOs, and one was on extraterrestrial
intelligence.

As a part of those studies for the President, Marcia Smith
brought on board Daniel Sheehan, a famous lawyer who has been
involved in Watergate, the Pentagon papers, the Karen Silkwood
case, and Iran Contra. Sheehan reported that Ms. Smith told him
that President elect Carter had requested all the UFO files,
from then Director of Central Intelligence George Bush, and was
told that he as President would have no need-to-know for this
particular subject.

Sheehan has also reported on many occasions that Marcia Smith
got him access to the classified portions of the USAF Project
Blue Book files, which he was able to view in a basement vault
in the Madison Building in Washington. While viewing these
files, Sheehan reported that he viewed a number of photos of a
crashed flying saucer in a snowbank, being investigated by USAF
members.

Marcia Smith knows exactly what the future of space is.
Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that she told the listeners of
NPR.

Presenting the inside story of how the
U.S. Presidents have handled the UFO situation.

http://www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/

Grant Cameron
sqquishy@altavista.com
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com









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                   Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:45:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:19:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman? - Stacy


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman?
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:17:00 -0400

<snip>

 >I must object to calling Roswell a tourist trap. Prices for
 >everything are very reasonable. Entry in to the museum is free.

 >Fine steaks at reasonable prices at the Cattle Baron, there is a
 >Walmart and lots of friendly people.


Stan,

There are tourist traps and Tourist Traps. Roswell may not have
the high prices characteristic of a bona fide Tourist Trap, but
it has many of the trappings of a lower case tourist trap,
nonetheless. It's a classic case of a small town with a stagnant
economy taking advantage of its newfound claim to fame. Not that
there's anything wrong with that. If I were on the Roswell
Chamber of Commerce board, I'd probably do the same thing.

But the town has definitely been occupied by aliens. Alien
suites, alien burgers, alien martinis, alien this and alien
that. Hardly a store downtown doesn't have some sort of alien
theme in its signage or window displays. Tacky alien souvenirs
are for sale everywhere.

Inevitably, this sort of thing takes its toll on objective
history. To cite but one hypothetical example: a typical family
of four pulls into a gas station, fills up, and asks the
attendant where the UFO crashed. The attendant, a freshman in
high school, isn't going to say "I don't know," or "You don't
mean to tell me you believe that stuff?" No, he or she is going
to direct them to the "official" crash site on the Corn Ranch.

And what is our typical tourist family of four going to think
after touring the Corn Ranch? That this is where something
_might_ have happened, according to which controversial
anecdotal account you accept?

No, they're going to be shown a tourist dog and pony show that
accepts claims and allegations made by certain individuals as
indisputable historical fact. So much for the tolerance of
ambiguity that history supposedly demands. (Are you listening,
Dick Hall?)

You won't find much tolerance of ambiguity in the Roswell UFO
Museum, either. What you will find is....a tourist trap,
masquerading as a museum; in other words, a very profitable
souvenir shop. Hell, I wouldn't charge admission, either! (And I
must admit I love my little alien ashtray I purchased there.)

Back home in St. Paul, Poughkeepsie, or even London or Tokyo,
our tourist family is asked where they went on vacation. "Oh, we
went to that place in New Mexico where the UFO crashed in 1947,
where they found the alien bodies, you know, the ones they
showed in that autopsy film."

"Cool! Did they have a Wal-Mart?"

"As a matter of fact, they did! And the food and accommodation
prices were really quite reasonable."

"Great! Maybe we'll take the family there next year."

"If you do, go in the winter, as the summers can be quite
hellacious. Besides, it's not far from Ruidoso and White Sands.
And did you know that Billy the Kid was killed nearby?"


Dennis Stacy








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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:55:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:21:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Morris


 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Dead Aliens
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800

 >>Hello all.

 >>In a previous post I brought up the question - did the Alien
 >>bodies ah, smell, after laying in the hot summer sun of Roswell?

 >>Apparently they did and were quite fragrant, as in fetid,
 >>stinkaroo, gagging, etc.

 >>Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
 >>next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be overcome
 >>if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the 'Alien
 >>Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving their toe-nails out?

 >>The 'tent footage' is, again, in the hot summer sun and nobody
 >>appears to be dressed for a very stinky autopsy. This is a problem.


The AA 'Tent Footage' is an agreed hoaxed piece of footage..

But, if you look closely at the AA 'Debris Footage' you can
notice distinct sweat marks showing on the shirt of the person
holding up the 'control panels' for the camera, indicating
either an excellent eye for detail on behalf of the makers, or
maybe it _was_ truly shot in a hot, i.e. summer desert location.

For those Listers with the Debris footage on the AA CD's.

See frames 85 - sweat stain on back of shirt near belt.

Frames 1600 ->1800 - sweat mark visible under armpit.


Neil









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                          Re: Dead Aliens - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:25:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:23:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Dead Aliens - Morris


 >From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Dead Aliens
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:46:04 -0500

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Dead Aliens
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:18:48 -0800

 >>You wrote:

 >>Hello all.

 >>In a previous post I brought up the question - did the Alien
 >>bodies ah, smell, after laying in the hot summer sun of Roswell?

 >>Apparently they did and were quite fragrant, as in fetid,
 >>stinkaroo, gagging, etc.

 >>Brazel and possibly others, commented on the stench. Now the
 >>next question, even the most jaded pathologist can be overcome
 >>if the subject is sufficiently 'ripe'. Why in the 'Alien
 >>Autopsy' isn't anyone (cameraman included) heaving their
 >>toe-nails out?

 ><snip>

 >I remember distinctly certain portions of the AA video where it
 >appears that one of the so-called doctors seems to be breathing
 >heavily, as if he or she is having difficulty coping with the
 >situation. Now this doesn't coincide with vomiting, but I
 >believe there is an argument to be made here.

If you're referring to the AA footage other than the hoaxed
"tent footage.

It's possible to see some movement in the helmet of one on the
suits worn by one of the "doctors" that would indicate
breathing, but remember the cameraman claims the air supply was
fed into these suits from an external source via tubes attached
to the suit legs, and though he himself claims he took off his
helmet he makes no comment of smells etc. Also if we accept his
account as true, _his_ event _is_ _not_  the "classic" Roswell
event of early July 1947, but an earlier event in May/June.


Neil










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                       Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:51:34 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:25:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men' - Rudiak


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:40:24 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:32:19 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 'Little Green Men'
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Dennis, you certainly have a knack for focusing on the
 >>remarkably unimportant.

 >>How about dealing instead with the obvious implications of the
 >>phrase "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO ?????? AT FORT
 >>WORTH, TEX."?


 >David, and you have a remarkable knack for changing the subject,
 >which, in case you forgot, was the origin of the phrase 'little
 >green men' and when it became common currency, as in, was it a
 >common expression in 1947, as Joyce or Brazel's alleged
 >testimony would seem to indicate?

However, it _is_ related. The FACT that the Ramey teletype
mentions "victims of the wreck" being "forwarded" to "Fort
Worth" lends considerable credance to witness statements of
alien bodies being recovered at Roswell. Specifically, it lends
credibility to the Joyce and Brazel conversation of small
bodies, green or otherwise.

 >If so, it would had to have been dang common in order to be an
 >understood phrase in rural New Mexico in 1947. I repeat: there
 >is no evidence that that was the case.

There is also currently no clear evidence that it wasn't the
case, and is a minor side issue at best anyway. Joyce and Brazel
could have had the two conversations about small, nonhuman
bodies that Joyce claims whether the phrase "little green men"
was ever used or not.

 >Read Kottmeyer's article or don't. I don't care. Of "comic strip
 >series like Alley Oop, L'il Abner, Popeye, Buck Rogers, Flash
 >Gordon and Superman", Kottmeyer says that "the phrase remained
 >elusive and drawings of aliens never seemed to fully match the
 >idea. Green aliens were either not-little or not-man-like while
 >little men were not-green."

Without question, however, aliens were portrayed as
simultaneously green and humanoid in comic strips prior to 1947,
as just that one example from an early Buck Rogers strip from
around 1930 clearly illustrated.

BTW, this is the same Martin Kottmeyer who proposed the theory
that the greys represent a prebirth memory of the human fetus?
Needless to say, I find most of the of the theories of the pure
psychosocial school of Ufology, of which Kottmeyer seems to be a
member, to be downright stupid. Hopefully his scholarship on the
LGM etymology is a little better.

 >Further on: "A fellow ufologist, Luis Gonzalez Manso, queried a
 >superhero comics expert jjnevin@ix.netcom.com [I think his name
 >is Jess Nevin] and he affirms use of LGM in comics does not
 >predate 1948 or so. He adds, 'The big vogue for putting aliens
 >in the comics did not really start until 1949 or 1950, and the
 >aliens were many different shapes and colors. In this case, I'm
 >afraid, the phrase sprang from science fiction rather than the
 >comics.'"

Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote sci fi stories of Mars called the
"Martian Tales", including mention of the "green men of Mars"
dating back to 1911. Again of my previously mentioned links:

http://humbabe.arc.nasa.gov/mgcm/fun/pop.html

Buck Rogers dates to 1928; Flash Gordon to 1934. Pulp comic
books of the 1940s prior to 1947 portrayed green, humanoid space
aliens. Planet Comics, started in 1940, was pure space alien
fare. Again, here are some links showing Sunday serials and
comic book covers with green aliens pre-1947:

Buck Rogers comic book cover around 1930 battling green
humanoids on Jupiter:

http://www.redboots.net/comics/other_heroes.htm

Flash Gordon battling partially green Martian reptile men in 1935:

http://www.comic-art.com/media/jpegs/raymn01z.jpg

Planet Comics, starting 1940, putting out 6 issues a year. Check
out the green, humanoid aliens on the covers of issues #1, #10,
#27, #29, #35, & #41 (thus issues from 1940 through about 1947):

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/fictionhouse.htm

Ziff-Davis Comics from the 1940s. Check out Space Busters #1,
Space Patrol #2, again showing green humanoids:

http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/lists/ziffdavis.htm

Maybe the "vogue" for putting aliens in the comics didn't start
until after 1947, but indisputably there are many examples of
alien comics prior to that. Furthermore, there were also
frequent portrayals of green, humanoid aliens in the comics
pre-1947 and in sci-fi dating back to at least Edgar Rice
Burroughs and his "green men of Mars" in 1911.

 >BTW, the green aliens on the Buck Rogers comic you linked are
 >smaller as a matter of perspective. Look at it again. They are
 >further away than the humans in the foreground, hence 'shorter'.

Maybe, maybe not. They can be perceived as smaller, whether that
was the artist's intent or not. Unquestionably, however, they
are green and humanoid.

 >As for the contents of Ramey's teletype, that's a whole
 >different kettle of fish, as you well know. My take on it - as
 >if you're interested - is that it is extremely interesting and
 >may yet have much to reveal. I'm also aware, as I presume you
 >are, that even the most ardent proponents of said smoking gun
 >and/or holy grail, have yet to unanimously agree on its
 >contents.

Since when does it require "unanimous agreement?" Would better than 90% be
sufficient?

There must be at least that much agreement that the message
mentions "the victims" being forwarded to Fort Worth and that
this message also is about Roswell, since words like "disc" and
"weather balloons" are clearly in it as well. That's all you
need to know, even without further agreement about any of the
rest of it. There were "victims" associated with Roswell. How
does a Mogul balloon crash explain that?

I would like to further comment on your demand for "unanimous
agreement." It is impossible to get 100% agreement on who was
behind the Sept. 11 attacks. It's generally impossible to get
"unanimous agreement" on just about anything. Even scientists
usually settle on some sort of consensus among the experts based
on current best interpretations of available evidence, and still
there will always be some diehard retrograde fuddy-duddies or
visionaries who disagree with that consensus. If "unanimous
agreement" was required of everything, nothing would ever be
learned or accompanished.

Demanding "unanimous agreement" is just another ridiculous and
arbitrary debunking "standard of evidence" not applied to any
other field of human knowledge.

 >You are entitled to your personal interpretation of it - and
 >with that there is no arguing.

 >Much as I might like to.

Why don't you try looking at it first before opining about it in
the negative? Is that too much to ask?

 >Needless to say, you are also entitled to your interpretation
 >as to the anomalousness of the material displayed in Ramey's
 >office.

You must have me confused with somebody else.

My opinion originally was and continues to be that Ramey
displayed a weather target and a balloon brought in as a prop
for his cover story.

 >Meanwhile, Happy New Year!

 >May Little Green Men not darken your doorstep. Or little gray
 >ones, for that matter.

Amen.


David Rudiak








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                   Re: Bottom Line On Walter Haut - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:42:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:27:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Bottom Line On Walter Haut - Stacy


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:21:26 EST
 >Subject: Bottom Line On Walter Haut
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >The bottom line on Walter Haut, seems to be:

 >1) Haut gave an Oral history interview where he describes or
 >discloses certain information that he knew about Roswell
 >concerning bodies and other things. He has not previously
 >disclosed them and the reasons for not disclosing them is
 >also in the Oral History, apparently only available to
 >researchers _after_ he is dead.

<snip>

Robert,

Hard to argue with the points you've raised.

Still, it's curious as to why Haut was interviewed so many times
- by numerous leading ufologists yet! - and yet seemingly chose
to bear his soul only to Wendy Connors, the details of which are
only to be released after his death: no follow up questions
permitted.

Well, maybe this is the right way to handle things... and maybe
it isn't.

One thing for sure: anyone who dares cast doubts on Haut's
posthumous testimony will surely be labeled a grave robber at
best.

And, I assume, a skeptibunker at worst.

Touche, indeed!


Dennis Stacy








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               Roswell - Tourist Trap? [was: 2002: Year Of The

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:30:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:41:29 -0500
Subject: Roswell - Tourist Trap? [was: 2002: Year Of The


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:45:36 -0600
 >Subject: Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman?
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 2002: Year Of The Mothman?
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:17:00 -0400

 ><snip>

 >>I must object to calling Roswell a tourist trap. Prices for
 >>everything are very reasonable. Entry in to the museum is free.

 >>Fine steaks at reasonable prices at the Cattle Baron, there is a
 >>Walmart and lots of friendly people.

 >There are tourist traps and Tourist Traps. Roswell may not have
 >the high prices characteristic of a bona fide Tourist Trap, but
 >it has many of the trappings of a lower case tourist trap,
 >nonetheless. It's a classic case of a small town with a stagnant
 >economy taking advantage of its newfound claim to fame. Not that
 >there's anything wrong with that. If I were on the Roswell
 >Chamber of Commerce board, I'd probably do the same thing.

Dennis, I am pleased that Roswell has been demoted to a tourist
trap instead of a Tourist Trap!! Personally I find Houston, Las
Vegas and Phoenix to be much more uncomfortable in the summer
than Roswell... perhaps because of its altitude.

Perhaps you didn't notice the letter on the museum wall about
the fact that the Corn Ranch land was not accessible by vehicle
in 1947 from a member of the McKnight Family who then owned what
is now called the Corn Ranch?

Remember Roswell isn't on the way to anywhere (Roughly 200 miles
from Amarillo, El Paso, Albuquerque). Nobody forces people to go
there. Remember, too, that the base was closed for purely
political reasons when NM didn't vote democratic (for Lyndon
Johnson). Seems poetic justice for some current prosperity
because of a very significant event and a bunch of government
misrepresentations (see my 27 page paper 'The Roswell Incident,
USAF, and NY Times'). I suppose the Chamber of Commerece could
do more to publicize the world's largest Mozzarella factory in
Roswell..... That will surely bring in the public.

My wife and I visited Fredericksburg, Virginia, on the way back
from Williamsburg. Big claim to fame with souvenir shops all
over is that thousands of troops were killed there in one of the
bloodier battles of the civil war. Tourist Trap??

Incidentally the Museum is my best customer for books, CD-ROMs,
videos etc. Proves some people are seeking the facts.


Stan Friedman









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                  Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:34:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:45:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Hatch


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:37:46 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:12:39 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >>>At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >>>showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >>>Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >>>On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >>>I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >>>older work?

 >>Its nice that Menzel had a "Definitive Explanation" for the UFO
 >>phenomenon. I sure don't.

 >A boring and simplistic read. And Menzel never did. Another
 >spook with an agenda?

Hello Don:

The very first pages of Loren Gross' latest UFO booklet (UFOs A
History: 1952 June-July 20th) are devoted to some revealing
papers turned up by Professor Michael Swords. These were
Ruppelt's personal papers, unpublished by Ruppelt elsewhere,
possibly due to their unflattering description of Menzel.

Its way too much to quote here, but Ruppelt describes an amazing
meeting at the Pentagon with General Garland (who reported to
Gen. Samford), Dr. Stephen Possony, Col. Dunn, and other brass
and luminaries.. including Menzel.

Menzel was apparently attempting to jam the 'UFOs are Nonsense'
view down the throats of the military instead of it being the
other way around! Perhaps the military came 'on line' later.

Menzel announced that he had sold a story to Time and Look
Magazines to that affect, and wanted the brass to back him up on
it. He held that most sightings were hoaxes among other things.
General Garland, Possony and others objected to this, they knew
better.

Checking up on Menzel afterward, Possony (etc.) discovered some
shady deal where Menzel had tried to sell the Navy on a
munitions contract where he was one of the backers.

Further inquiries cast high doubts on his '"high-school physics'
explanations of UFOs.

This man was a respected scientist in other regards. His
closed-minded approach has been the subject of various theories.
One of these (Michael Hall and Wendy Connors) is that Menzel was
a mouthpiece for Dr. Harlow Shapley of Harvard.

Shapley apparently held that UFOs were "a distraction to
rational science".

Others might theorize that his 'agenda' (I dislike that word)
was motivated by something related to national security, too
many people watching the skies and reporting secret US missile
tests or whatever as UFOs, while our adversaries lapped up
whatever crumbs of info were thus made available.

Still others suspect darker motives.

Still, it seems inconceivable that a man of science could say
"talking to witnesses was a waste of time"... that from Jerry
Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, Vol. II L-Z pg.387, as quoted by
Gross.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                       Re: New Year Agenda - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:23:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:49:26 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:11:49 -0600
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:26:25 +0000

 >>List,

 >>Just to give you a little more idea about the man, as a result
 >>of my December 27 post here, Karl Pflock has privately
 >>threatened me with a lawsuit via e-mail. Birds of a feather
 >>Pflock together: Karl, CSICOP, Klass, Moseley... skeptibunkers,
 >>and the ethicallly challenged in general.

 >>- Dick

 >Gee, Dick,

 >That wouldn't have anything to do with your use of the word
 >purloin, would it?

Who had contested possession of the articles in question, and
would they still be in that person's possession if that
possession was not questioned. Absence of evidence, evidence of
absence?

 >And for the record, have Klass, CSICOP, and Moseley also
 >threatened you with lawsuits recently, as in birds of a feather?

This question seemed a little leading and suggestive. That they,
perhaps, would, seems likely. I watched Mr. Moseley suggest,
thinly, to a harried hotel clerk at a Gulfbreeze Conference
several years ago that legal action could be forthcoming when
Mr. Moseley didn't get the room rate that he thought he
should... I think I observed the situation correctly, and would
have hung around a bit to see the outcome, but Linda Moulton
Howe walked into the room, and I wanted to get into position to
benignly stalk her... <g>.

 >Or are you just particularly pissed off and paranoid these days?

Firstly, there's more than enough reason to be pissed-off these
days, and secondly, where there is an actual threat there _is_
no paranoia. Cynicism, sarcasm, and baseless ridicule can be
pretty threatening in the hand of an adept, or why would you
blow into this smoking hole in the hopes of provoking the fire
of a more heated response. Pretty transparent... No - one gots
ta stay icy with an adept. I'm sure Mr. Hall can mimic liquid
nitrogen if the situation calls for it. I know I can.

 >Inquiring minds would like to know.

This inquiring mind first considers the source.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL:
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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   Dec > Dec 31

                   Re: The Measure Of Dick Hall - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:28:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:53:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Measure Of Dick Hall - Lehmberg


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:12:07 EST
 >Subject: The Measure Of Dick Hall
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >I leave it to List members to decide for themselves how Dick and
 >I measure up ethically.

While remaining open to any new information... but going where
the data leads...

...After years of personal observation regarding the flavor of
your performance on video tape, providing witness to your
obvious socio-political bias and subsequent ufological cant, and
after acknowledging your high placement in an institution
implicated arguably in citation after citation of suspicious,
unethical, and flagrantly criminal acts... I can report from the
observational field that you and Mr. Hall, weighed in the device
you suggest, has Mr. Hall banging so heavily off the bottom of
the scale with regard to fidelity, integrity, and scholarly
correctness that you require supplemental oxygen as a result of
being tossed too far up into the air.

One lister's opinion, not to put too fine a point on it. My
likely unwelcome advice? ...Keep the LOX handy.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
 >,~(=D6)~,
EXPLORE "Alfred (...that's not a pants leg, that's an electric
fence) Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL:
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.










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                 Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:17:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:56:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg


 >Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:24:06 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: sqquishy@altavista.com
 >Subject: Marcia Smith On Future of Space

 >As a part of those studies for the President, Marcia Smith
 >brought on board Daniel Sheehan... Sheehan reported that Ms.
 >Smith told him that President elect Carter had requested all the
 >UFO files, from then Director of Central Intelligence George
 >Bush, and was told that he as President would have no
 >need-to-know for this particular subject.

Smith appears not to remember it this way.

 >Sheehan has also reported on many occasions that Marcia Smith
 >got him access to the classified portions of the USAF Project
 >Blue Book files, which he was able to view in a basement vault
 >in the Madison Building in Washington. While viewing these
 >files, Sheehan reported that he viewed a number of photos of a
 >crashed flying saucer in a snowbank, being investigated by USAF
 >members.

Oh, the old 'underground vault' and 'crashed saucer photos'
again - how many people have we heard jumping on this
look-how-important-I-am story?

 >Marcia Smith knows exactly what the future of space is.
 >Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that she told the listeners of
 >NPR.

Smith does not appear to remember it this way, that Sheehan is
telling it.










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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.31.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:26:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:57:39 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 12.31.01


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

December 31, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
12.31.01


The Ultimate Long Distance Call

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_long_distance_011227.html


Kepler Mission to Find Earth-Like Planets Gets Green Light

http://www.space.com/news/kepler_go.html


Kevlar vs. Comets: Bullet-Proof Craft to Get Closest Comet Views
Ever

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/contour_mission_011226-1.h=
tml


Analysis: Top Technology Stories for 2001
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/yir/stories/technology/

____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project,
providing the latest news, reports and updates, including
the Weekly Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com

Or go to:

http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews

Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2001









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                    Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:30:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:59:40 -0500
Subject: Re: An Idea For Consideration - Hale


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: An Idea For Consideration
 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:20:19 +0000

  >In broad outline, it would include a Board of Directors
 >(or Commissioners) of prominent citizens whose names and
 >reputations would ensure respect and news media attention.

Hi People,

UFO research is littered with such bodies, and commissions.
Personally, I feel that once a person hits the big time in
ufology, i.e. book deals and other notoriety, they become
estranged to the public at large, a kind of invisible barrier.
Much like, we know who they are, we see there books, go to their
lectures but there not like Joe around the corner, their time is
taken up by too much beauracratic BS, the simpleness has gone
out of the game.

And then what happens? Well, remember we are the humans, and yes
you've guessed it, the human ego kicks in, and then the seismic
shift in opinions settle in, and then' well the rest is history.

And as for Science? I am beggining to feel this is a lost cause
for Science, scared to come out to the middle of the ring, I
mean - here we have these Science guys, with all the
qualifications under their belt and where are they? Just a mere
handful come to the table, and so much for the challange of
mankind, and it's new scientific discoveries!

Cowards are they?

Maybe we should all admit (UFO community) that in some way we
have let down the masses (World public), due to our own agendas
replacing the real search to the question posed by the innocent,
who simply ask you after a sighting, "Did I see an Alien
Spacecraft?"

Who knows, maybe when the military decide to open on this
subject a little more, regarding their REAL findings, then I
guess we can all keep guessing.

Happy New Year to all,

Roy..








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                         Positivite Thoughts, Please

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:23:42 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:02:56 -0500
Subject: Positivite Thoughts, Please


We would be deeply gratefull for your prayers, or for those who
pray not, your positive thoughts, on behalf of my mom who is
going through some very tough times. Since I ain't done with her
yet, I suspect that the Good Lord and I have a battle to fit.
She's in tough straits.

See, who wins depends on how many folks take umbrance with His
desire. Hey, people win the Lottery and besides, we need her
more than He does.

End
Jim Jr., Jim Sr., Rosie and Pepe









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                Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:23:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:05:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Maccabee


 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:37:46 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:12:39 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>>At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >>>showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >>>Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >>>On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >>>I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >>>older work?

 >>Its nice that Menzel had a "Definitive Explanation" for the UFO
 >>phenomenon. I sure don't.


 >A boring and simplistic read. And Menzel never did. Another
 >spook with an agenda?

A Definitive Explanation for the Arnold Case was presented in
Menzel's last book:

Water drops on the windshield

Menzel pointed out that he (Menzel) had been temporarily fooled
into thinking that water drops on the window of an airplane he
was flying were large objects at some distance from the plane.
Then he refocused his eyes and realized the objects were only
inches from his face (on the outside of the window). Menzel
pointed out that "many queer things" happen at high altitudes in
the atmosphere, and this was justification for suggesting that
Arnold saw water drops.

Definitive?

In his 1947 letter to the Air Force Arnold pointed out that he
turned his airplane sideways and rolled down the window to look
out without any chance of reflection ,etc.

It's a wonder Menzel didn't propose water drops on Arnold's
eyeballs.

Maccabee's First Rule For Debunkers:
Any publicized explanation is better than none.

Oh, by the way, did I mention that Menzel had previously
suggested other "definitive explanations" for Arnold's sighting?
billowing clouds of snow from Mt Rainier reflections in a haze
layer orographic clouds mirage of the mountain tops

All _very_ definitive!

Maccabee's Second Rule For Debunkers:
if the first explanation doesn't work or doesn't seem convincing,
publicize another.

(Can pelicans be far behind?)








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                 Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:41:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:08:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published? - Ledger


 >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:34:49 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:37:46 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:12:39 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?

 >>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Is Menzel To Be Re-Published?
 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:13:16 -0500

 >>>>At a local Border's Books a search of their computer listing
 >>>>showed that Dr. Menzel's 'The UFO Enigma: The Definitive
 >>>>Explanation of the UFO Phenomenon' is to be reprinted for sale.
 >>>>On their web site I can only find a used copy of the work, but
 >>>>I'm really curious as to what would trigger the reprint of an
 >>>>older work?

 >>>Its nice that Menzel had a "Definitive Explanation" for the UFO
 >>>phenomenon. I sure don't.

 >>A boring and simplistic read. And Menzel never did. Another
 >>spook with an agenda?

 >Hello Don:

 >The very first pages of Loren Gross' latest UFO booklet (UFOs A
 >History: 1952 June-July 20th) are devoted to some revealing
 >papers turned up by Professor Michael Swords. These were
 >Ruppelt's personal papers, unpublished by Ruppelt elsewhere,
 >possibly due to their unflattering description of Menzel.

 >Its way too much to quote here, but Ruppelt describes an amazing
 >meeting at the Pentagon with General Garland (who reported to
 >Gen. Samford), Dr. Stephen Possony, Col. Dunn, and other brass
 >and luminaries.. including Menzel.

 >Menzel was apparently attempting to jam the 'UFOs are Nonsense'
 >view down the throats of the military instead of it being the
 >other way around! Perhaps the military came 'on line' later.

 >Menzel announced that he had sold a story to Time and Look
 >Magazines to that affect, and wanted the brass to back him up on
 >it. He held that most sightings were hoaxes among other things.
 >General Garland, Possony and others objected to this, they knew
 >better.

 >Checking up on Menzel afterward, Possony (etc.) discovered some
 >shady deal where Menzel had tried to sell the Navy on a
 >munitions contract where he was one of the backers.

 >Further inquiries cast high doubts on his '"high-school physics'
 >explanations of UFOs.

 >This man was a respected scientist in other regards. His
 >closed-minded approach has been the subject of various theories.
 >One of these (Michael Hall and Wendy Connors) is that Menzel was
 >a mouthpiece for Dr. Harlow Shapley of Harvard.

 >Shapley apparently held that UFOs were "a distraction to
 >rational science".

 >Others might theorize that his 'agenda' (I dislike that word)
 >was motivated by something related to national security, too
 >many people watching the skies and reporting secret US missile
 >tests or whatever as UFOs, while our adversaries lapped up
 >whatever crumbs of info were thus made available.

 >Still others suspect darker motives.

 >Still, it seems inconceivable that a man of science could say
 >"talking to witnesses was a waste of time"... that from Jerry
 >Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, Vol. II L-Z pg.387, as quoted by
 >Gross.


Hi Larry,

Certainly as well Menzel's [shady ?] intelligence connections
have to be explored. As you say Menzel's 'high school physics'
approach to the UFO inigma back in those early years was a major
turn-off for me when reading his book. One would have expected
better of the man [shades of Condon]. I must confess the man
really puzzles me, though before Stan Friedman brought out
Menzel's connection to the intelligence community-I'd simply put
him down to just another scientist unwilling to give the
phenomenon a serious look.

Imagine also my surprise to discover in Vallee's 'UFO Chronicles
of the Soviet Union: A Cosmic Samizdat' that at the absolute
height of the cold war in the early 60's that Menzel was being
published in Pravda as a serious debunker to the UFO question,
in support of the Soviet government's official anti-UFO line.

How weird is that?


Best in the New Year,

Don Ledger









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               Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:48:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:11:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space
 >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:17:40 -0600

 >>Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:24:06 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>Subject: Marcia Smith On Future of Space

 >>As a part of those studies for the President, Marcia Smith
 >>brought on board Daniel Sheehan... Sheehan reported that Ms.
 >>Smith told him that President elect Carter had requested all the
 >>UFO files, from then Director of Central Intelligence George
 >>Bush, and was told that he as President would have no
 >>need-to-know for this particular subject.

 >Smith appears not to remember it this way.

This story has been told in many different venues for months
now... why wouldn't this suspicious denial have surfaced before?
I smell one of your rats Mr. Oberg.

 >>Sheehan has also reported on many occasions that Marcia Smith
 >>got him access to the classified portions of the USAF Project
 >>Blue Book files, which he was able to view in a basement vault
 >>in the Madison Building in Washington. While viewing these
 >>files, Sheehan reported that he viewed a number of photos of a
 >>crashed flying saucer in a snowbank, being investigated by USAF
 >>members.

 >Oh, the old 'underground vault' and 'crashed saucer photos'
 >again - how many people have we heard jumping on this
 >look-how-important-I-am story?

Mr. Sheehan doesn't need underground vaults and crashed saucer
photos to look important. He has Watergate, Wounded Knee,
Iran-Contra, Karen Silkwood, and Harvard's Dr. Mack to do all
that. And it remains that Jimmy Carter, perhaps the best example
of an American President in (at least) the 20th and 21st
centuries, was told by the father of Forest Gump JR that he did
not have a "need to know" regarding a subsequently _obvious_
collection of UFO evidence, and reported a UFO himself at one
time as the Governor of a State. Carter _would_ have a reason to
get to the bottom of the aggregate conundrum, wouldn't he, and
he might employ such a mechanism as has been reported. Your
trademark ridicule is once again seen for what it is, a
distraction from the issues at hand with derisive smoke and
mirrors and the usual baseless character assassination. BUSTED!

 >>Marcia Smith knows exactly what the future of space is.
 >>Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that she told the listeners of
 >>NPR.

 >Smith does not appear to remember it this way, that Sheehan is
 >telling it.

So you've spun it. But unlike Fox's Bill O'Riley (at _least_ a
man unashamed of his apostrophe) and his mere proclamation of a
"no spin" zone, UFO UpDates, I think, actually aspires to it. As
you've pronounced upon it, I'll wait and see, but frankly expect
the opposite.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.










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   Dec > Dec 31

               Re: Positivite Thoughts, Please - Peterborough

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:10:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:52:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Positivite Thoughts, Please - Peterborough


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:23:42 EST
 >Subject: Positivite Thoughts, Please
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >We would be deeply gratefull for your prayers, or for those who
 >pray not, your positive thoughts, on behalf of my mom who is
 >going through some very tough times. Since I ain't done with her
 >yet, I suspect that the Good Lord and I have a battle to fit.
 >She's in tough straits.

 >See, who wins depends on how many folks take umbrance with His
 >desire. Hey, people win the Lottery and besides, we need her
 >more than He does.

Your mom and family are in my thoughts and prayers Jim.


Warm wishes,

Kelly









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   Dec > Dec 31

                              'Dustbunny' Hunt?

From: Ingrid Hanson <froggy@rio.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:44:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:53:20 -0500
Subject: 'Dustbunny' Hunt?


Does anyone have any information about what finally happened
with this?

Inquiring minds are inquiring yet again....


Ingrid







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                         Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:28:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:02:16 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Stacy


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:33:01 +0000

<Big ol' snip>

Dick,

I'll keep my remarks as brief and cheery-minded as possible.

You've called for an open, objective investigation of Roswell.
(With which I concur.)

I assume that means that each witness is to be analyzed and
weighed with the same set of scales.

So when I use Kent Lorenzo as an example, it's not to suggest
that one Roswell witness who claims nothing untoward happened
there should trump two who claimed a spaceship with little
bodies crashed. It's to ask where Lorenzo is in all the books,
monologues, and videotaped interviews ufology has made over the
last several years. Where are all the other eyewitnesses
interviewed by Roswell investigators who had nothing
extraordinary to say about it?

Where, in other words, is the vaunted objectivity and balance?

I realize that "Roswell Witness Says Absolutely Nothing
Happened!" doesn't make for much of a headline; but if that's
truly half of the story, I sure haven't seen it promoted that
way in most of the Roswell material I've read and looked at.

How many other Roswell witnesses haven't been heard from because
they didn't have any tale to tell? Lorenzo was, I believe, the
second commanding medical officer at the hospital at the time.
Had bodies been brought in, he would almost undoubtedly have
been aware of them.

As near as I can tell, however, Roswell investigators have yet
to beat a path to his door.

Kent Jeffrey's long report may indeed have had its flaws. But
when he says he talked to a number of 509th veterans who said
nothing untoward took place, I have to take him at his word. Did
fellow ufologists ask him who his contacts were so they could
conduct follow up interviews? Or was he effectively hounded out
of the field?

Ufology's track record on Roswell is pretty self-evident: you
can do almost anything and remain a member in good standing -
just don't criticize Roswell.


Dennis Stacy









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                        Re: New Year Agenda - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:12:12 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:08:42 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Rudiak


 >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: New Year Agenda
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:37:54 +0000

 >The indisputable fact of the matter is that your mind is just as
 >made up as those you criticize of cynicism (or worse). There is
 >nothing, nothing, _nothing_ that could be discovered or
 >uncovered, published or revealed, that would or ever could
 >dissuade you of the fact that nothing unusual occurred at
 >Roswell and that, in fact, the AF has not had alien bodies on
 >ice for the last 50+ years. Not the McCoy document, not Kent
 >Lorenzo's [I hope I have the name right] testimony to the
 >contrary, not the exposure of one after another less than honest
 >"eyewitness" -- in short, nothing.

Poor Kent Lorenzo. Dennis regularly drags him out as his
personal poster boy for Roswell witnesses who supposedly
disprove anything happened. But all the man basically had to say
was , "I wasn't aware of anything happening."

Put Dennis in charge of a criminal investigation and have him
canvas a neighborhood for witnesses. He finds 5 people who claim
to know something and 30 who were watching television and say
they didn't hear or see anything.

That would be the end of the investigation on Dennis' beat.
There was no crime. The 30 no-nothings would trump the 5
possible know-somethings. Those who claim to know something must
be mistaken, liars, or loonies. That seems to be the logic at
work here.

 >No, of course you don't. While asserting your own final answer
 >and accusing anyone who dares differ with charges ranging from
 >cynicism and game-playing to disinformation, and so on. (Which
 >takes us back to: what evidence would persuade you that nothing
 >untoward happened at Roswell?

Likewise, what evidence would persuade you that something
"toward" happened at Roswell?

 >It would almost have to be
 >government evidence/documents at this point, wouldn't it?

There _is_ a document of unimpeachable provenance that _proves_
something 'toward' happened at Roswell. It's called the Ramey
telegram. It states unequivocably that there were "victims" and
then it goes on to discuss that something "in the 'disc'" was
going to be shipped.

So there were 'victims' and there was an object Ramey calls a
"disc". How does a Mogul balloon crash produce "victims"?

Furthermore, can you explain why Ramey would be calling the
crash object a "disc"?

Think carefully Dennis. This is an intelligence test. If your
typical, knee-jerk, skepti-bunky response is that a Mogul radar
target was the "disc", then you have to explain why Ramey talks
about something "in the 'disc'" being shipped. Radar targets
didn't have any insides.

 >But,
 >wait: we all know what you think of gov't documents and denials,
 >as in not to be trusted. So you'll always have an "out".

What's your "out" Dennis, to ignore what the Ramey telegram
says?  Or is it to demand 'unanimous agreement' as to what it
says, a standard of evidence not applied to any field of human
knowledge, not even the hard sciences.

 >Lucky
 >man, you! No more McCoy-like docs need apply, presumably however
 >persuasive.)

I think it is self-evident to anybody that if a spacecraft from
an advanced technological civilization were dumped in our laps,
it would be classified Top Secret with highly restricted access,
along the lines of the Manhatten Project.

Looking at documents from 1944 classified lower than Top Secret
that say, "We know nuttin' about any atom bomb project in the
U.S." does not prove there was no A-bomb project." Even if the
writers of such documents knew of such a project, they could not
reveal it in lower classified documents, especially if the
intended readers of such documents did not have the necessarily
clearance themselves.

Similarly, lower-classified documents from 1947 and 1948 that
say they have no physical evidence of the saucers proves
nothing.

Even Top Secret documents, if they existed, with similar denials
would prove nothing if the sender and/or reciprient lacked the
proper clearances. Because of compartmentalization, even if all
the parties had Top Secret clearances, this does not mean the
parties would be privy to all Top Secret information.

As to Col. Howard McCoy and Project Sign, I wonder if Dennis
Stacy has any idea just how low a classification Project Sign
had? To save him the trouble of looking it up, it wasn't Top
Secret. It wasn't even Secret. It was classified at a very lowly
"Restricted" level.

So there are some lower-level documents with McCoy saying,
"Heck, I wish we had a crashed saucer but we don't," and that
somehow proves something?

 >Put another way, name someone who disagrees with your current
 >assessment of Roswell who is open-minded, non-cynical,
 >non-disinformative, and, by all appearances, not a planted mole.
 >(As we could never know for sure, could we?)

 >I understand it may be a short list, but try, anyway.

 >In other words... do you and Roswell have _any_ honorable
 >critics? Or just pond scum?

What did pond scum ever do to you to deserve an insult like
that?


David Rudiak

Proud, card-carrying member of the Pond Scum Anti-Defamation
League








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                 Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:32:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:15:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space - Oberg


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Marcia Smith On Future of Space
 >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:48:37 -0600

 >So you've spun it. But unlike Fox's Bill O'Riley (at _least_ a
 >man unashamed of his apostrophe) .....

You've lost me. What apostrophe am I accused of being ashamed
of?