UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:26:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 08:39:57 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:19:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>To appreciate how little prepared ufologists were for the modern >>abduction phenomenon, one has only to read Walt Webb's report to >>NICAP of his initial investigation of the Hill CE3 (not >>suspected to be an abduction then). He overlooks significant >>parts of the testimony and rationalizes away portions that would >>later be seen as seminal. The Hill episode was something so new >>and novel that ufologists failed to recognize it for what it >>signified till years later. >>It is important to turn to primary sources whenever possible. >>There, while doing historical research for my encyclopedia in >>the 1990s, I found the occasional intriguing but overlooked and >>not-understood reference to things that sound much like missing >>time that is central to the Hill case and, of course, to many >>others that would occur in its wake. The Hills presented even >>the most sophisticated ufologists -- and Webb certainly can be >>so described -- with aspects of the UFO phenomenon for which >>they had no preparation. That's one reason, maybe _the_ reason, >>it remains so important in the history of ufology. >The reason that the missing time didn't feature in Walter Webb's >report is that it didn't become a prominent feature of the story >until (at least according to John Fuller on pp62ff of the Dell >ed of Interrupted Journey) it was suggested to the Hllls by, >guess who, Hohman, Jackson and a Major Macdonald. H and J seem >to think that ufos were piloted by anti social teenagers who >went around stealing things from cars. Webb encountered hints of missing time but didn't recognize them because the concept didn't exist in the knowledge base or experience of ufologists of the period, though as I have pointed out elsewhere hints of it were expressed in pre-Hill UFO cases (reported at the time, I stress, and not simply in post-Hill retrospective testimony) but were recognized as such by exactly nobody. This is what Walt Webb, whose response is understandable given the state of knowledge (nonexistence) of such things in 1961, wrote in his initial report to NICAP, at a time when the Hill case was thought to be a more or less "conventional" CE3: "In his conversation with me (and with his wife since the sighting) a mental block occurred when [Barney Hill] mentioned the 'leader' peering out the window at him. Mr. Hill believes he saw something he doesn't want to remember. He claimed he was not close enough to see any facial characteristics on the figures, although at another time he referred to one of them looking over his shoulder and grinning and to the leader's expressionless face. However, it is my view that the observer's blackout is not of any great significance. I think the whole experience was so improbable and fantastic to witness -- along with the very real fear of being captured adding to imagined fears -- that his mind finally refused to believe what his eyes were perceiving and a mental block resulted." As these remarks indicate, the Hills recounted what would later be called "missing time" (and Webb calls "mental block" and "blockout") from the beginning, and they needed nobody to plant the concept in their heads. Their first account of it to an investigator was to somebody who actively rejected it. Webb's observations also underscore just how naive even the most informed ufologists of the period were about the phenomenon. Interesting that instead of trying to incorporate missing time into an ostensibly conventional theory of the Hill experience, debunkers try to deny its very occurrence. Strange are their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar - May 14, 2005 (NYC) From: The Intruders Foundation <Ifinfo1.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:27:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:23:47 -0400 Subject: Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar - May 14, 2005 (NYC) Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement Saturday, May 14, 2005 Dr. Bruce Maccabee: UFO Photographs - Crucial Physical Evidence On May 14, 2005, IF is proud to present Dr. Bruce Maccabee, the leading photo analyst within the UFO community, who will display some of the best known genuine UFO photographs and videos, as well as some (unfortunately familiar) fakes. He will describe the methods he uses to reach scientific conclusions about the veracity of various UFO images, and will offer a review of the many dramatic pictures taken in or near Gulf Breeze, Florida in the late 1980s. Dr. Maccabee, a presenter at our second national conference, is a fascinating and compelling speaker who combines the highest degree of scientific precision with a wicked sense of humor. As an optical physicist, he is employed by the Navy Department in Washington, D.C., though he conducts his UFO photographic research privately, on his own time. Presently he is less well known in his other activities: he is an extraordinary musician =96 a pianist and composer =96 who has also branched into fiction, recently publishing a novel based on the UFO phenomenon, as well as being an astute, widely published historian of the UFO cover- up. Dr. Maccabee has made major contributions to the area of physical evidence in his analyses of the world-famous McMinnville, Ore., UFO photos, the Australian "night light" case, the Gulf Breeze photo and video series, the Mexico City "apartment building UFO" hoax, and many others. His scientific objectivity and precision have made him one of the world's foremost UFO researchers, a man whose careful analyses have reluctantly been accepted by many of the field's most demanding debunkers. We, at IF, are privileged to present Dr. Bruce Maccabee in a lecture that will include fascinating slides and video tapes of some of the most famous UFO images of the past half century, and, as usual, we will offer audience members time to ask their own questions. The May 14 seminar is an evening that anyone interested in UFO physical and photograph evidence cannot afford to miss. We look forward to seeing you there. Registration & Information The seminar will be held on May 14th at the new meeting rooms of A.R.E., located on the SECOND FLOOR at 241 W. 30th Street (between Seventh and Eighth Avenues), New York, NY. The price for the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for members of IF, seniors and students. Advance reservations may be made by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first come, first served basis. Payment must be made in advance to secure the reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Book early! Only 60 reservations will be accepted. On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood. The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00 PM. Doors open at 7:00 PM. There will be a one half-hour intermission, during which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A book table will offer books, videotapes and other material for sale to those interested. For additional information, call IF at 212-645-5278. Hope to see you there! ---------- The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free exchange of research, ideas and theories. IF makes no specific claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or subject matter presented by our guests. ---------- Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF events? Please visit our web site=85
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - King From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - King >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:38:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:13:55 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico <snip> >>>The ease with which the reports coming out of Mexico are >>>dismissed has more to do with long-held prejudices and imagined >>>superiority than it has to do with the results of an >>>investigation or conclusions that are arrived at via scientific >>>methodology. This most recent post about the 'fleet videos' >>>being mere balloons is a perfect example. >>If you are seriously suggesting that compelling evidence for the >>existence of extra-terrestrial craft in our skies is being >>"dismissed" because it comes from Mexico, then it is quite >>clearly you that is the bigot here. I've looked at lots of >>images, videos, and written reports. Some are very intriguing. I >>couldn't care less where they come from. My interest is in >>finding something extraordinary, something for which I have no >>rational explanation. That's what keeps me looking. Not to prove >>some personal hypothesis (I don't have one), but to be there >>when the truth reveals itself..vigilant. If proof came from >>Mexico, I would be as exhilirated as if it happened on the White >>House lawn. I believe everyone on this List would agree. The >>only evidence of a dissenting view from what I've read is coming >>from your poison pen. And it reads like a whine against an enemy >>that doesn't exist. Mexico may once have been the Rodney >>Dangerfield of the West, but the US of A has usurped that title >>and appears to be intent on holding it for oh, another 3 years >>or so. On this I do not feel your pain. Mexico being >>ridiculed... have you read the papers lately? If you're gonna >>bring it, then bring it. <g> >>>Nobody has bothered to check I'm sure, but... No 'fleet videos' >>>were either recorded or submitted for the date mentioned for the >>>balloon release: April the 7th, when this event took place. >>>The most recent video and the one closest to the date of the >>>balloon flight is from, April the 11 th. The video was recorded >>>at 8:30 in the morning. A Monday morning, with not a single >>>demonstration happening in the cities of Mexico. >>Are you basing the date of the video solely on the imprint on >>the tape? On Robles Gil's testimony? I would think that if >>someone claimed his video was of a known balloon release, and >>the best method you have to refute it is to cite the reported >>date and time of the video, then the object(s) on the video must >>be very strongly similar to balloons, else you could just point >>at the video and say, "you call those balloons"? Since the date >>is not verifiable, either by the videographer's report or the >>camera itself, this is a non-starter. Balloons unless and until >>evidence emerges to the contrary. >>>And by the way, can they explain all of the other videos? >>I wish someone would point me to "all the other videos". I have >>located one single very unimpressive video file from Robles Gil. >>I'd be happy to eat my words if there's any "sauce" in these >>other videos. My balloon comments were based entirely on the >>single video file linked in this thread. >>>It's ridiculous how easily the reports and recordings are >>>dismissed without the slightest attempt at investigation. In >>>fact, it's nothing short of insulting. Which is what prompted my >>>sarcastic missive on the subject. >>I'm sure that having your videotapes dismissed can be insulting, >>but you don't have to be from Mexico. Billy Meier, Bob Lazar, Ed >>Walters... none from Mexico. The evidence is what leads to such >>dismissal. The video... or what little I have been fortunate >>enough to see... appears first to be balloons. Unless and until >>I see or hear evidence that directly refutes this impression, my >>intellect will not allow my conscience to make the leap that >>they are anything but. I'm completely open to being refuted, but >>emotion is not a substitute for evidence. >>>I have videotaped the exact same objects... >><snip> >>If you don't know what is in Robles Gil's video, how can you >>assert that you have videotaped the "exact same things"? >>>Talk about having your head buried in the sand! The skies over >>>Mexico are becoming the center stage of first contact while the >>>rest of the world dismisses it as misinterpretation of ordinary >>>birds and balloons and looks the other way. >>>How sad. What a commentary on us. >>Considering that Yturria makes much of the fact that the >>object(s) are unknown (whether mundane OR ET), you seem to have >>quite a different view. On what is this anomalous mindset based? >>And we're obviously not looking the other way... we're just >>waiting for something to see. The video I have seen which was >>the basis for this thread are something less. >>>The UFO occupants must think we're _all_ mentally challenged! >>At the very least, any visiting aliens observing us scrambling >>the gunships and putting the POTUS in a bunker for a cloud >>probably looked pretty lame, too. Or was it a cloud... hmmm. <g> >It never makes much sense to try to conduct a conversation or >discussion with someone who is as obviously 'upset' by a subject >as you are about UFOs. You seem to have taken my comments and >observations 'personally'. As if they had been directed to you >and you alone. >For example, you write: >"If you are seriously suggesting that compelling evidence for >the existence of extra-terrestrial craft in our skies is being >'dismissed' because it comes from Mexico, then it is quite >clearly you that is the bigot here. I've looked at lots of >images, videos, and written reports." >I find it curious and even a little amusing that out of the many >individuals who subscribe to this List and all those who read >the posts, you seem to be the only one who reacted as if the >content of my message was directed at you personally. Besides, I >do not engage in the kind of self-loathing required to be >prejudiced against one's own people, race or nationality. >Why does all this upset you so, Kyle? Have you ever >witnessed/seen a UFO? What is your stake in all this that you >are so easily upset and obviously bothered by comments such as >mine? Let me assure you, I didn't have _you_ in mind when I >wrote them. Even though, I seem to have struck a nerve. >Take it easy Kyle. Life is too short to allow comments such as >mine upset your apple cart as it apparently has. I'm as entitled >to my opinions and to express them as you are yours. You don't >see me blowing-up over some remark or observation that you've >made. Actually, when I see your name in the header of a post, I >usually just trash it unread. If my opinions and comments upset >you as much as you have demonstrated here in this response to my >post, then I suggest you do the same with my posts when you see >them. I'm going to save my energy for people who may wish to >discuss this situation. I have no time or patience for the >insecure ones who show up to a discussion _aggressively_ looking >for a fight. I'm not desperate to prove anything to anybody, >as you, so transparently, do. >I wish you Peace - Because Life is too short for anything else! Hi John, I cannot find any reference in my post that would indicate that I am angry. While it certainly annoys me when someone accuses others of being dismissive of someone's assertions because of their nationality, it does not anger me in the slightest. What is clear from your reply is that you would choose to create intent in my post and thereby duck answering the questions I asked. A brief review of the post I was replying to reveals that the anger is yours...at not being taken seriously. I would agree that you are not taken seriously, but not because of your nationality. This was my very simple point. The rest of my post was a number of questions...not sarcastic, but honest questions. I assumed that you had seen other video of these "flotillas". Whether I was mistaken or not is now irrelevant since my questions are cast aside in the glare of your imagined rancor on my part. You really think I took your post as being directed at me personally? I may be paranoid, but I'm not that paranoid. I just wanted some answers. Of course, It'd be a miracle if you actually read this post, since two in a row would tend to discount your comment about typically deleting my posts. My loss. As you have provided no evidence to support your views, and in light of Yturria's reasoned assertion that the objects remain a complete enigma, I choose to disagree with your assessment of American's reaction to UFO reports from Mexico, and of your thinly veiled assertion that anyone who doesn't take them seriously will be missing out on something big. I would honestly like to see more video of these objects, since that is apparently all we will have to work with in attempting to determine what they are. I still think balloons are the simplest answer until something more compelling comes along. UFOs from outer space is a ways away, in my opinion.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: Wow! Exempt & Beta Together - Bishop From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:36:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Wow! Exempt & Beta Together - Bishop >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:51:35 -0400 >Subject: Wow! Exempt & Beta Together >I just read Exempt from Disclosure (Collins and Doty) and then >Project Beta (Bishop). >My head is swimming. Definitely a brain-scambling event! What to believe? Whom to believe? I have a feeling that only time and some gumshoe work will tell. I have only just ordered Collins' book. Recently, I have been talking with Moore and others about these events. Some of this I wish I had known when I was writing the book. Yes, the events do go deeper than I revealed in Project Beta, but my hands were sometimes tied by requests to use their information, but not in the book. I was also under a deadline. >Are these guys crazy, or is they actually putting a hole in the >"iron (cover-up) curtain?" I hope I'M not crazy, but studying these things can drive you in that direction! >Where these books intersect (Bennewitz, Moore) there are slight >differences in the history, but the quandary come clear in both: who is telling the truth? And, if someone is, can we handle the >truth? Actually the typical reader will be in more of a quandary after reading EfD (Exempt....) because it goes far beyond PB >(Beta)..... I only wish that Collins had released his book before mine, as I could have expanded on many issues raised in Project Beta, especially since he has apparently "outed" many people who I was assured would never talk about this period. Perhaps they talked to Collins because he was a compatriot. Even Doty has opened up a bit more as of late, but of course I have to sit on and investigate his revelations, and those of others who were involved. >Here, for the first time anywhere (in publication, as far as I >know) are the names and activities of _living_ men who claim to >have first hand knowledge of AFC (alien flying craft) and alien >technology and alien bodies and... live aliens! After looking at this subject for many years and talking to a few of the principals involved, I get the feeling that the UFO subject is of great interest to many in the intel world, but the only "operational" status that is given to the subject is how it can be best used to cover up very earthly (albeit cutting-edge/ black budget ) technology. The people who instigate the "covering up" are very interested however, in where the UFO info originates in the first place, and have made many attempts to find out where this is coming from, who knows what, and what "it" is. The "UFO Working Group" (i.e. John Alexander et al) from Howard Blum's "Out There" is one organized example. These are very compartmentalized subjects. One physicist I talked to was a frequent visitor to WPAFB in the 1950s and '60s, and knew Hynek well. He said he couldn't figure it out even with all his connections. Some of the personnel from (the former) NIDS are still looking. >On the first page of the book (pg 3) the reader gets a flavor of the openness of the presentation in the lst f names associated >to the investigation as it began almost 20 years ago. Some names are recognized immediately, along with their Aviary (bird) >names: >Bill Moore >Jaime Shandara They of course have no "bird" names, as they were the ones who came up with the "Aviary" moniker. Shandera disappeared in late 1999, but is still living in the L.A. area. Before he dropped out he told me that he had seen something that convinced him that there was an alien presence on this planet and that he knew this to be true because of something he had been shown on a secret trip to either Washington or somewhere in the Southwest. I have my suspicions as to what he saw, but no cofirmation as of yet. >Two names are less well known (the book authors) >Richard Doty (Falcon stand-in) >Robert Collins (Condor) I believe Doty was also known as "Sparrow." >Three names that are known from a totally different history >(deceased): >James J.Angleton >Allen Dulles >Richard Helms Possible identites for "Falcon?" >And a name unknown to most UFO investigators: >Ernie Kellerstrauss (Hawk). >Ernie Kellerstrauss? Who ordered him, you say? He is a source >for a sizeable fraction of what is in the book. Damn. I was told he wouldn't talk. He was the man who told Moore and Shandera where to find an underground facility off base in the foothills above Albuquerque, among other things. >And then a few pages later we find: >Dale Graff (Falcon?) >Kit Green (Blue Jay) I believe that they were in the loop because they had some official capacity in monitoring the effects of the disinfo and how it was protecting the Kirtland projects, but also because they were very interested in the UFO subject and any truth that could be gleaned from assisting in or at least monitoring the project. >In the following weeks and months I expect this book to stir up >a controversy comparable to that over the Roswell case, but with a difference: now there are people who have gone public - and >some that have been 'outed' whether they want it or not - so now we will see who has the fortitude to stand behind their claims >or will collapse in the barrage of attacks that are sure to >come. We must be careful who we accuse of lying. These people may be looking for the same thing we are, but have to overcome their pasts to find out what they were using to cover up military and intel operations. Many are very good at keeping what they know a secret, while finding out what you know. If you approach them with good information (instead of suspicions and accusations) you may be rewarded with another piece of the puzzle. There are of course some who cannot change their mindset. Also, former military and intelligence people are only under oath not to reveal anything that might impinge upon national security. I think that they know the difference, and if not, are quick to check with someone about it. Some may still be involved in a coverup (wittingly or not) and we do ourselves a disservice by throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Corso, for example had a long history of intelligence and counterintelligence, but the UFO community was ready to welcome him with open arms because his first foray into the field told us all what we wanted to hear, even though I have heard of no evidence to back up his claims. When Doty was on Coast to Coast, the reaction was just the opposite, even though he too was confirming the reality of the Roswell crash as an ET event. I recently asked a prominent researcher about his opinion in light of Doty's confirmation, and he changed the subject very quickly. I don't take anyone's revelations at face value unless there is some sort of relatively reliable evidence to back it up. Take what you find and file it away. If it matches up with something else down the road, you're a step closer. Disinformation is a game with rules. The rules unfortunately dictate that there will be a lot of lies mixed with a little truth. Some of these retired agents, etc. have part of the truth (whatever that is, and it's probably not what we expect) and should not be ignored if we want to dig deeper into what a small group knows about any non-human contact. Believe it or not, I think some of them want to know the reality behind the lies as well. Greg Bishop _________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Mexico's Fleets Debunking Article From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:49:35 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 Subject: Mexico's Fleets Debunking Article Mexico's Fleets Debunking Article I'm posting this clearification note sent by Mexican skywatcher and experiencer Prof. Ana Luisa Cid to the IHU regarding the tendentious and manipulative article on the Mexican UFO Fleets - 'Mistaken Balloons' article, originally conceived and orchestrated by an Osiris Mendoza, unknown individual in Mexico and clear antagonist of Mexican UFO research. The mediocre article failed to get attention here in Mexico due to it's evident manipulation of facts and details and only found resonance with two Brazilian skeptics and a certain webpage. Mendoza's motives are clearly personal and nothing to do with the UFO Fleets phenomena. Nothing substantial here as appropiately stated by John Velez in his List-post regarding this inaccurate and irrelevant article. I must say that Prof. Ana Luisa Cid is one of our most prolific and respected UFO experiencer/skywatcher/witnesses in Mexico and has made an invaluable contribution to Mexican UFO research through the years, providing much important evidence on video. It was Mrs. Ana Luisa Cid, along with her son, Ivan Nieto Cid, who videotaped the UFO fleet over Mexico city the day Pope John Paul II landed on Mexican soil on January 22, 1999. Certainly a day to remember in Mexico due to the unusual incidents videotaped over the big city. It's fair to clarify things and here is Ana Luisa's response to the malicious and manipulative article: April 29, 2005 "The Osiris Mendoza was not written by me. I am not a journalist nor is it my custom to write reports having similar characteristics. Please make the corresponding clarifications, since my articles are solely aimed at reporting the UFO phenomenon in Mexico. Thank you. Sincerely -- Ana Luisa Cid." This regrettable incident was just one of those naive attempts to confuse and deceive the public regarding Mexican UFO research - something so cheap that it must be considered an insult to our intelligence. Once again I ask for some seriousness in the treatment of this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:46:42 -0400 Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage Dear Colleagues: Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. You can check the previous ones at: www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico One of the new videos is dated March 30 and two are dated April 11. I've watched the material carefully, several times and strongly suggest you do the same. At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple explanation. The others are also quite interesting. The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be easily explained away. With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on Monday at: www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:28:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:49:31 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Shough >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:02:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico <snip> >>. . . this is a non-starter. Balloons unless and until >>evidence emerges to the contrary. >Kyle, >It's a no-brainer: they can't have been balloons. The key reason >for this you didn't mention, but others have. The objects >remained in the same relative positions with respect to each >other - hundreds of them, for as long as the video showed them, >which was over many seconds. This was more than enough time to >disclose the influence of turbulence had these been balloons. >Turbulence in the planetary boundary layer - that lowest layer >of the atmosphere extending from several hundred feet up to >several thousand ft - would have caused balloons to disperse and >move relative to each other's positions. Even a small amount of >dispersion would have shown up in the video in a few seconds' >time. But it didn't. The reported date/time of the video >indicates that the turbulent layer would have had plenty of time >to rise up above several hundred feet, by 8:30 in the morning. >And the fact that the objects showed up as significant-sized >orbs on the video indicate that if they had been ordinary toy >balloons, they could not have been above a height of a couple >hundred ft. >If somehow there had been no turbulence, a seeming impossibility >for the low daytime atmosphere, there would then have been some >wind shear. Wind shear would then have continually sheared out >the formation of balloons, had they been balloons. Ask Martin >Shough if you need confirmation of the above. >Therefore, not balloons. >If you need another reason, it is that a balloon is very >difficult to inflate with a proper mixture of lighter-than air >gas plus possible ballast, such as to get it to travel >horizontally, neither rising nor sinking. Try it some time with >just one balloon, then extend the difficulty to several hundred >balloons. And even if that impossibility were somehow >surmounted, all such balloons would need to have risen to about >the same general height somehow and then ceased rising any >further. Another impossibility. >Therefore, these objects remain unidentified, i.e., UFOs. Hi Jim Since you mention me: For what it's worth my own ill-informed opinion (I haven't studied the video and have now lost the link) is that turbulence and wind shear would be expected to disperse a free cluster of toy balloons pretty quickly. Some points: 1) It would be useful to have some weather data for the time and place as well as accurate info on at least the true angular sizes of these objects. A 1 ft balloon (say) at 200 ft subtends about half the diameter of the moon so isn't by any means a tiny object. Can the angular size(s) be derived from the video and camera specs? 2) Santiago Ytturia Garza describes the objects as "luminous objects flying in perfect formation contrasting with the blue sky and white clouds". It ought be possible to derive rough angular rates from the cloud background. Can it be shown that the angular rate is inconsistent with winds at the altitude indicated by the angular subtense of a toy balloon? 3) Degree of _uniformity_ of angular size would be a useful measure. If they are all close to the same angular size then this would also indicate minimal vertical dispersal, arguing that if they are balloons they are not far from the release site and still at low altitude, in the most turbulent region of the atmosphere. If on the other hand there is a large vertical dispersal then they could be higher, but then wind shear should, as you say, be evident over tens of seconds. 4) You mention _constancy_ of angular size over time: Would commercial toy helium balloons achieve neutral buoyancy at a couple of hundred feet (assuming your angular calculation is accurate)? I don't think so. Moreover I don't think that "several hundred" randomly-filled helium balloons would be neutrally buoyant at the _same_ altitude, with reference to 3) above. Especially early in the morning you'd expect rising gas balloons to be warming and expanding and tending to increase their climb rates, erratically, due to solar heating, not tending to stall uniformly. 5) It's possible of course that a cluster of balloons might be tied together, negating some of the force of 3) and 4). But "several hundred"? An extraordinary number to be tied in a cluster. On the other hand, if they were tied then you'd have to factor in to 4) the weight of maybe thousands of yards of string tying all the balloons together! Could be the ballast you need to keep the cluster down at low altitude, I suppose, but if the angular size of the whole cluster can be estimated then it might be possible to prove the need for an impossibly long and heavy "cat's cradle" of string to keep hundreds of far-apart balloons tied together in "perfect formation". 6) If they aren't tied in a cluster but still stay all at same altitude, for something like a minute, as I think was reported, then surely they couldn't be toy balloons - unless there were some _very_ unusual stratified atmospheric conditions somehow confining them to a narrow layer, and nocturnal horizontal stratification tends to be disrupted by vertical mixing due to solar heating around dawn. What's the local topography like where the 60 second film was shot? Could there be a downdraft (due to something like so-called mountain and valley winds or a sea-breeze circulation) that would keep balloons from rising? It
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:55:34 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:02:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >> Balloons unless and until >>evidence emerges to the contrary. >It's a no-brainer: they can't have been balloons. The key reason >for this you didn't mention, but others have. The objects >remained in the same relative positions with respect to each >other - hundreds of them, for as long as the video showed them, >which was over many seconds. This was more than enough time to >disclose the influence of turbulence had these been balloons. Turbulence aside, you make the assumption the balloons are each separate from the other. It should be assumed they are connected via strings. Regarding turbulence, it is unknown what the atmosphere characteristics were at that location. Perhaps the turbulent layer was higher than you think or quiescent in that location or with a granularity that would not affect the balloons as you propose. With wind shear, ditto. But add strings. >Therefore, not balloons. No, the burden is on the person bringing the video to provide more data. But if you want to gumshoe it, go ahead. But don't dump it into the vast pile of "UFO" photos and videos. They are cheap currency these days (become devalued). >And even if that impossibility were somehow >surmounted, all such balloons would need to have risen to about >the same general height somehow and then ceased rising any >further. Another impossibility. Neutral buoyancy (at altitude) and strings answer these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 1 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:02:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:40:50 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:35:43 EDT >Subject: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >PRG >Paradigm Research Group >PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - April 30, 2005 >A Personal Note >So much happened and is happening around the 2nd Annual >Exopolitics Expo - X-Conference 2005 - it will take three or >four emails to properly cover the material. I would like to >begin with a personal note to all those who attended the >conference and others who have received firsthand reports from >attendees. >This note concerns the Banquet and Keynote on Saturday evening, >April 23. I will use this opportunity to apologize for problems >which created discomfort for many in attendance. The intention >was to have the written Keynote Address of Monsignor Corrado >Balducci translated into English from the Italian, placed into a >word document and scrolled on screen while the Monsignor spoke >in contiguous Italian. This did not get done, and a consecutive >translator was obtained at the last minute with such translation >prolonging the address. >Worse, it was my decision to not obtain a set of powered >speakers for the Crystalls Ballroom, thinking incorrectly that >PRG had the needed equipment in hand. As a result there was >additional delay in setting up working sound and the sound was >such that it was necessary to turn off the air conditioner in >order to hear the address. Either of these mistakes alone would >have been modest, but the two together created compounded >discomfort for the attendees and the speaker. I am completely >responsible for this, and only the improvisational tech wizardry >of Ted Strain prevented a complete failure. <snip> Regarding Stephen Bassett's apology about Monsignor Balducci's keynote address, there is more that he could have apologized for. Oddly, Bassett's summary omits Balducci's astonishing comments on the relative goodness of humans versus extraterrestrials. Introducing his theme, and eerily setting the tone for the entire conference, Balducci flatly declared that "extraterrestrials will be more inclined to good" than are humans. Warming up, he told his audience: "It's not possible that beings more evil than us can exist in other worlds... we are the worst of all!" Balducci further explained that God created extraterrestrials between humanity and the the angels. In other words, ETs are by nature spiritually superior to humans. These are outrageous and completely unfounded statements, yet because they are uttered by a religious authority may be taken by some as gospel. While it is unsurprising that Balducci preaches Church doctrine that humanity is a "fallen" species and thus in need of the salvation of Christ, his speculations about the moral status of extraterrestrials are completely without basis in Catholic theology, witness testimony, or rational discourse. Others have noted that Balducci routinely ignores evidence that extraterrestrials are as capable as humans of "sin" or moral failure. For instance, Gordon Creighton wrote of Balducci: "There is not a single word in anything that he has ever said or written to indicate any knowledge whatsoever of such matters as alien rape; crossbreeding; hybridization; removal of sperm and ova; implants, or the widespread harassment of humans by UFO entities, widespread mutilations of terrestrial animals, and ghastly human mutilations too." While it might be seen as useful for the exopolitical disclosure movement to have the enthusiastic endorsement of a Vatican prelate, Bassett would do well to distance himself from irrational insistence on the God-given spiritual/moral
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: ore UFO Fleets Over Mexico - King From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 07:59:52 -0400 Subject: Re: ore UFO Fleets Over Mexico - King >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >You can check the previous ones at: >www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico >One of the new videos is dated March 30 and two are dated April >11. I've watched the material carefully, several times and >strongly suggest you do the same. >At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as balloons or birds >makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >easily explained away. >With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >Monday at: >www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 Hi Aj, and List, I was wrong. Well, partly wrong. Robles Gil's videos are not all balloons. The rest are hoaxes of a different sort. Gil is a charlatan. Reflections of Christmas lights in glass, photographed against the sky through the glass. Some artful dodging with paint or cardboard, as well. Ed Walters would be proud. Thanks to Amy H., I was able to peruse a number of Gil's videos. And at least one site where Gil's lies are revealed. Follow the links, and you'll know thw truth, as well. Case closed. Another hoaxer exposed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:33:41 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 08:04:13 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Hayes >From: Sergey Shpakovsky <sergejsh.nul> >To: UFOupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:24:47 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico <snip> >OK, I started to do some research (just search in internet) and >I found that such things happened not first time and not only in >Mexico. Known >Masses Of UFOs" In Philippines, 1979: >http://www.bobpratt.org/philippines.html >A series of moving bright lights" 01 February 2005, UK: >http://www.scarboroughtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=800&ArticleI D=93 4677 >UFO Fleet Over Necochea, Argentina May 26, 2003: >http://www.UFOinfo.com/news/UFOfleet.shtml I noticed some 404 errors in my log for this link and realised that the link should have been: http://www.ufoinfo.com/news/ufofleet.shtml (note the lower-case 'UFO') This report is brief and was originally posted on UFO UpDates and is as follows: SOURCE: Planeta UFO DATE: May 26, 2003 9:54 p.m. Dear readers of Inexplicata: The following message was received from UFO researcher and INEXPLICATA contributor Guillermo Gimenez. Be advised that I am investigating an incident which transpired on Sunday, May 25, when a witness saw the maneuvers of some ten (10) objects of considerable size, white in color, in the vicinity of the Port of Necochea-Quequen (Argentina). The eyewitness is an engineer with the Necochea Power Station, belonging to the Centrales de la Costa Atlantica S.A. (CCASA) company. The objects were seen between 20:20 and 20:30 hours on Sunday, May 25. The objects maneuvered in absolute silence and vanished in the direction of Parque Miguel Lillo in Necochea, originating from the Quequen port sector and flying over the Necochea beach resort. More information on this episode will be available shortly, proving that Necochea is once more a constant area of UFO manifestations. Guillermo Daniel Gimenez, Necochea, Argentina ========================= Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) ==== Best wishes, John Hayes webmaster.nul UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:03:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:22:32 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul > >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >easily explained away. I watched these earlier tapes a while ago. I am afraid that you and your fellow Mexican UFO researchers are being made fools of with sometimes sophisticated and complex balloon releases. And the sad thing is that it is likely hometown boys who are doing this so it can't be blamed on the Gringos. Sure they are impressive and beautiful to watch, but they can easily be explained as balloons. Viewing the "100's" flotilla show no difference from balloons, some of the balloons are three tied together. There is some slight movement between balloons and implies they are all at the same altitude and moving at fairly the same speed, with minor fluctuations. Other Mexican "UFO" videos with slow moving objects almost always look/act like balloons. The "character" shaped wormy "UFOs" are simply either sheathed of lightweight material with balloons on the inside or the sheath IS the balloon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 15:44:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:28:20 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez >From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:38:47 -0400 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:13:55 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico ><snip> >Hi John, >I cannot find any reference in my post that would indicate that >I am angry. While it certainly annoys me when someone accuses >others of being dismissive of someone's assertions because of >their nationality, it does not anger me in the slightest. >What is clear from your reply is that you would choose to create >intent in my post and thereby duck answering the questions I >asked. A brief review of the post I was replying to reveals that >the anger is yours...at not being taken seriously. I would agree >that you are not taken seriously, but not because of your >nationality. This was my very simple point. >The rest of my post was a number of questions...not sarcastic, >but honest questions. I assumed that you had seen other video of >these "flotillas". Whether I was mistaken or not is now >irrelevant since my questions are cast aside in the glare of >your imagined rancor on my part. You really think I took your >post as being directed at me personally? I may be paranoid, but >I'm not that paranoid. I just wanted some answers. Of course, >It'd be a miracle if you actually read this post, since two in a >row would tend to discount your comment about typically deleting >my posts. My loss. >As you have provided no evidence to support your views, and in >light of Yturria's reasoned assertion that the objects remain a >complete enigma, I choose to disagree with your assessment of >American's reaction to UFO reports from Mexico, and of your >thinly veiled assertion that anyone who doesn't take them >seriously will be missing out on something big. >I would honestly like to see more video of these objects, since >that is apparently all we will have to work with in attempting >to determine what they are. I still think balloons are the >simplest answer until something more compelling comes along. >UFOs from outer space is a ways away, in my opinion. Hello Kyle, From what I've seen, you're just another Internet UFO 'hobbyist.' A ufological groupie who loves to sit at home pontificating on cases, individuals, and a subject, that you know little or nothing about. You sound off regularly on cases you have never investigated, about witnesses you have never met or interviewed, and if I'm not mistaken you are not a 'legitimate' research person by any definition of the term. Yet oddly, you seem to think you're entitled to demand answers from me or anybody else, based solely on the fact that you've had some of your 'unqualified' personal opinions posts published here on this List. Unless you've presented some impressive credentials that I may have missed along the way you have a lot of crust 'demanding' anything from a witness. Kyle, "arm-chair critics" such as yourself who are not qualified to comment on anything, much less UFO reports/cases, are a dime a dozen on the Internet. I honestly can't begin to fathom who you think you are that you can demand answers/responses from me or any other witness regardless of how you ask. Don't flatter yourself, Kyle. I am not "ducking" your questions. I simply don't have to dignify them (and the attitude you display when you ask them,) with a response. You have a lot to learn. Check it out: If you had done a modicum of homework, you'd know that many years before you graced the UpDates List with your omniscience regarding UFOs, the Mexican videos, along with my videos and those of Tom King, Bill Hamilton and many others, were looked at, discussed, and many pertinent questions regarding the material was asked and answered. And by _legitimate_, trained field investigators and research people. Repeatedly. Because you just happened to arrive on the scene, and think you're questions are so original that they have never been asked or dealt with before, does not obligate me (or anybody else) to re-hash it all just because you demand/expect it. Hit the archives newbie! Do some real research _before_ you demand answers of anyone. Qualify yourself before you quiz witnesses. I still don't know why I should even be wasting my time talking to you. Who are you anyway? Point me to your books or research on the subject of UFOs that qualifies you to demand answers/anything from me. Guess what, Kyle, bottom line; I don't have to respond to anyone who displays an attitude when addressing to me. Especially someone like yourself who doesn't know me or who even bothers to show a modicum of respect when asking questions. Has the word 'Please' ever been introduced into your vocabulary? Other than to offer the questionable fruits of your own _unqualified_ arm-chair analysis, I really don't know what it is that qualifies you have to pontificate the way you do about UFO cases and witnesses. Being 'intrigued' or 'interested' in the subject does not make you a researcher. Frankly I have much better things to do with my time than to spend it verbally rolling around on the floor with an arm-chair expert like yourself. I don't feel any compelling need to re-hash material that has already been covered - repeatedly. Go study the archives, man. We've covered all this off at least five times since I joined this List nine years ago. It seems like every time a new kid comes on the block we are somehow obligated to re-hash everything for their benefit. Sorry, It just doesn't work that way. You have some responsibility (as the new guy) to hit the Archive and determine if the questions you are about to ask have already been dealt with. If not, then fire away. But do some homework first. Don't hold your breath looking for any further responses from me. If Jim Deardorff and others wish to take the time to debate with you, they have my blessing and more power to them. Me, I've got bigger fish to fry.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:50:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:31:24 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:26:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:19:27 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>>To appreciate how little prepared ufologists were for the modern >>>abduction phenomenon, one has only to read Walt Webb's report to >>>NICAP of his initial investigation of the Hill CE3 (not >>>suspected to be an abduction then). He overlooks significant >>>parts of the testimony and rationalizes away portions that would >>>later be seen as seminal. The Hill episode was something so new >>>and novel that ufologists failed to recognize it for what it >>>signified till years later. >>>It is important to turn to primary sources whenever possible. >>>There, while doing historical research for my encyclopedia in >>>the 1990s, I found the occasional intriguing but overlooked and >>>not-understood reference to things that sound much like missing >>>time that is central to the Hill case and, of course, to many >>>others that would occur in its wake. The Hills presented even >>>the most sophisticated ufologists -- and Webb certainly can be >>>so described -- with aspects of the UFO phenomenon for which >>>they had no preparation. That's one reason, maybe _the_ reason, >>>it remains so important in the history of ufology. >>The reason that the missing time didn't feature in Walter Webb's >>report is that it didn't become a prominent feature of the story >>until (at least according to John Fuller on pp62ff of the Dell >>ed of Interrupted Journey) it was suggested to the Hllls by, >>guess who, Hohman, Jackson and a Major Macdonald. H and J seem >>to think that ufos were piloted by anti social teenagers who >>went around stealing things from cars. >Webb encountered hints of missing time but didn't recognize them >because the concept didn't exist in the knowledge base or >experience of ufologists of the period, though as I have pointed >out elsewhere hints of it were expressed in pre-Hill UFO cases >(reported at the time, I stress, and not simply in post-Hill >retrospective testimony) but were recognized as such by exactly >nobody. >This is what Walt Webb, whose response is understandable given >the state of knowledge (nonexistence) of such things in 1961, >wrote in his initial report to NICAP, at a time when the Hill >case was thought to be a more or less "conventional" CE3: >"In his conversation with me (and with his wife since the >sighting) a mental block occurred when [Barney Hill] mentioned >the 'leader' peering out the window at him. Mr. Hill believes he >saw something he doesn't want to remember. He claimed he was not >close enough to see any facial characteristics on the figures, >although at another time he referred to one of them looking over >his shoulder and grinning and to the leader's expressionless >face. However, it is my view that the observer's blackout is not >of any great significance. I think the whole experience was so >improbable and fantastic to witness -- along with the very real >fear of being captured adding to imagined fears -- that his mind >finally refused to believe what his eyes were perceiving and a >mental block resulted." >As these remarks indicate, the Hills recounted what would later >be called "missing time" (and Webb calls "mental block" and >"blockout") from the beginning, and they needed nobody to plant >the concept in their heads. Their first account of it to an >investigator was to somebody who actively rejected it. Webb's >observations also underscore just how naive even the most >informed ufologists of the period were about the phenomenon. >Interesting that instead of trying to incorporate missing time >into an ostensibly conventional theory of the Hill experience, >debunkers try to deny its very occurrence. Strange are their >ways, I guess. But this paragraph by Webb is clearly not referring to the 2 missing hours but to some kind of momentary mental block. The missing two hours comes from the journey taking two hours longer than it had done in the past. This could be due to any number of reasons, driving slower than before, stopping for longer than they thought they had, getting lost in the panic and confusion, or falling asleep at some point. Of course if anyone had actually done a proper site investigation, including getting the Hills the run with journey with them in similar conditions, some of these puzzles might have been solved. I wonder how many ufologists would consider a 6 page report impressive today, when many case reports are 10 or 20 times than length. It's hard to remember back damn near 40 years, but I don't recall as a teenage ufo buff finding this story so unprecedented even though I didn't encounter the AVB case till 1967. The literature around at the time prepared us for it. Far from being treated as a wild story heading for the wpb, the Hill story got
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:11:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:39:13 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Maccabee >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul > >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >You can check the previous ones at: >www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico >One of the new videos is dated March 30 and two are dated April >11. I've watched the material carefully, several times and >strongly suggest you do the same. >At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >easily explained away. >With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >Monday at: >www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 As I pointed out in an earlier message, the first 'UFO Fleet' film was by Delbert Newhouse, Navy photographer, near Tremonton Utah in July, 1952. This is a famous film in UFO history. At the time no one referred to it as a "flotilla" or "fleet" of UFOs... but there were many of them.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:16:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:42:07 -0400 Subject: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? I've been reviewing some video footage taken during various forms of electronic attacks against one of our gang stalking/electronic harassment targets, by her, of herself during these attacks. She uses a Sony Night Shot camera to record her physical state and surroundings during the night, so she doesn't have to switch on the normal light. I am not sure if I'm being hypnotically caused to see this, but during close-ups of her face using the camcorder's infrared illuminator, her eyes appear to me to have vertical slit-like pupils instead of the customary round type. Because deception, mind games and sabotage in transit are all part of what happens in our lives routinely, I don't accept what I'm seeing as necessarily 'for real'. The person involved is of First Nations (Canada) or American Indian (United States) origin, and her eyes in daylight are so dark as to appear to be solid black discs. The reason I'm asking is that I recall some years ago hearing of one abduction report in which the abductee remembers an encounter with humanoid aliens, with blond hair and blue eyes. One difference there was that vertical slit pupils were reported (allegedly, this was not first hand.) Does anyone on this list know if any of the more trustworthy abduction reports include such a description?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Reviews To Date On 'Project Beta' From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:25:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:44:51 -0400 Subject: Reviews To Date On 'Project Beta' www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743470923/104-1599729-9602337 The above URL includes Publisher Weekly's 'take' as well as several reviews from readers. I recognized Nick Redfern's name - a reviewer - and vaguely recognized Brian Park's name - formerly from the Fair Witness Project. Speaking of Fair Witness Project, that seems like ancient history! If I hadn't taken a peek at recent Saucer Smear reports, I wouldn't have had a single clue as to what Bill Moore
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:27:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:47:19 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:02:46 -0700 >Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:35:43 EDT >>Subject: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>PRG >>Paradigm Research Group >>PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - April 30, 2005 >>A Personal Note >>So much happened and is happening around the 2nd Annual >>Exopolitics Expo - X-Conference 2005 - it will take three or >>four emails to properly cover the material. I would like to >>begin with a personal note to all those who attended the >>conference and others who have received firsthand reports from >>attendees. >>This note concerns the Banquet and Keynote on Saturday evening, >>April 23. I will use this opportunity to apologize for problems >>which created discomfort for many in attendance. The intention >>was to have the written Keynote Address of Monsignor Corrado >>Balducci translated into English from the Italian, placed into a >>word document and scrolled on screen while the Monsignor spoke >>in contiguous Italian. This did not get done, and a consecutive >>translator was obtained at the last minute with such translation >>prolonging the address. >>Worse, it was my decision to not obtain a set of powered >>speakers for the Crystalls Ballroom, thinking incorrectly that >>PRG had the needed equipment in hand. As a result there was >>additional delay in setting up working sound and the sound was >>such that it was necessary to turn off the air conditioner in >>order to hear the address. Either of these mistakes alone would >>have been modest, but the two together created compounded >>discomfort for the attendees and the speaker. I am completely >>responsible for this, and only the improvisational tech wizardry >>of Ted Strain prevented a complete failure. >Regarding Stephen Bassett's apology about Monsignor Balducci's >keynote address, there is more that he could have apologized >for. >Oddly, Bassett's summary omits Balducci's astonishing comments >on the relative goodness of humans versus extraterrestrials. >Introducing his theme, and eerily setting the tone for the >entire conference, Balducci flatly declared that >"extraterrestrials will be more inclined to good" than are >humans. Warming up, he told his audience: "It's not possible >that beings more evil than us can exist in other worlds... we >are the worst of all!" >Balducci further explained that God created extraterrestrials >between humanity and the the angels. In other words, ETs are by >nature spiritually superior to humans. >These are outrageous and completely unfounded statements, yet >because they are uttered by a religious authority may be taken >by some as gospel. >While it is unsurprising that Balducci preaches Church doctrine >that humanity is a "fallen" species and thus in need of the >salvation of Christ, his speculations about the moral status of >extraterrestrials are completely without basis in Catholic >theology, witness testimony, or rational discourse. >Others have noted that Balducci routinely ignores evidence that >extraterrestrials are as capable as humans of "sin" or moral >failure. For instance, Gordon Creighton wrote of Balducci: >"There is not a single word in anything that he has ever said or >written to indicate any knowledge whatsoever of such matters as >alien rape; crossbreeding; hybridization; removal of sperm and >ova; implants, or the widespread harassment of humans by UFO >entities, widespread mutilations of terrestrial animals, and >ghastly human mutilations too." >While it might be seen as useful for the exopolitical disclosure >movement to have the enthusiastic endorsement of a Vatican >prelate, Bassett would do well to distance himself from >irrational insistence on the God-given spiritual/moral >superiority of extraterrestrials. Michael, I agree with you strongly on the question of who is morally superior here, given the reported behavior of the abductors. But we don't really know if these events are "real" or that the perptetrators are "aliens" in the normal sense of that word. This is simply a matter of logical analysis, assuming various things for the sake of argument and drawing out the implications. So there is lots of research to be done by rational human beings before taking any kind of a firm stand on any aspect of this perplexing issue. To my way of thinking, the first order of business should be to check the Catholic credentials and reputation - peer review - of Balducci to determine more about him. We are fortunate to have at least two practicing Catholics who also happen to be highly intelligent, well-informed, and reputable people in this field: Jerry Clark and Michael Swords. What do they have to say about this? I would be very interested to know, since I am extremely dubious about Balducci's credibility. If I am mistaken in this opinion, I would like to know about it from people whose opinions I trust and whose knowledge and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:35:29 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>>>To appreciate how little prepared ufologists were for the >>>>modern abduction phenomenon, one has only to read Walt Webb's >>>>report to NICAP of his initial investigation of the Hill CE3 >>>>(not suspected to be an abduction then). He overlooks >>>>significant parts of the testimony and rationalizes away >>>>portions that would later be seen as seminal. The Hill episode >>>>was something so new and novel that ufologists failed to >>>>recognize it for what it signified till years later. >>>>It is important to turn to primary sources whenever possible. >>>>There, while doing historical research for my encyclopedia in >>>>the 1990s, I found the occasional intriguing but overlooked and >>>>not-understood reference to things that sound much like missing >>I don't think the Hill case was that novel or out of the >>ordinary in 1961. It has been argued that abductions were only >>noted in obscure UFO magazines unavailable to the Hills, yet if >>we look at the investigation of their case, they had long >>discussions with UFO experts within weeks of their encounter >>experience. From them they would have picked up plenty of >>information about current UFO research and theories. >No, they wouldn't have. That material just wasn't available. You >simply don't know what you're talking about. Until you do, a >wise course of action, it seems to me, would be to choose to >engage only in those disucssions in which you have something to >contribute. >In its time the Hill case was an extraordinary revelation, as >all of those who were there in the mid-1960s can testify, when >reports of the abduction aspect emerged. There was a general >feeling of shock and excitement. Other ufologists who lived and >were active at the time will recall exactly what I mean. As I >pointed out earlier, the sophisticated and knowledgeable >ufologist (and astronomer) Walt Webb, who initially investigated >the case, was so unprepared for it that he failed to recognize >what he had when he conducted his inquiries. Hi, I hope you patient and gentle Listfolk appreciate Jerry's rude and impatient remarks as much as I do. When Walter Webb investigated the case, the Hill's did not mention missing time or an abduction. If you read Fuller's book it is clear that the Hill's spoke to several ufologists about their experience. Over the weeks their recollection of the incident became more elaborate. Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology it is significant that the only major account of it is by a popular journalist and author. Where are the detailed investigations and reports by the likes of Keyhoe, Hynek or Clark? >>It should also be noted that throughout the 1950s the contactee >>literature and science fiction on TV and in films often >>contained alien encounters and abductions. >This is no argument at all. If one looks hard enough, one can >find, here and there, an illustration of a disclike object in a >pre-Arnold SF magazine. That does nothing to help us to explain >daylight-disc sightings (Arnold, by the way, was anything but a >science-fiction fan) - the presence of which also shocked the >world, apparently not so awash SF fans and disc images as >pelicanist doctrine requires us to believe. <snip> What has Arnold and pre-SF magazines got to do with the Hill case? Their encounter was in 1961, there had already been a decade of contactee literature, UFO reports in the newspapers and many SF films about alien invasions and abduction. >And by the way, taking abductions off the table, where is the >evidence that persons who are not emotionally disturbed are >subject to vivid science-fiction fantasies which they are >deluded into believing really happened? If this is a recognized >category of nonpathological mental malfunction and exists >outside the abduction arena, it has escaped me. I've never heard >of it, and I suspect nobody else has, either. >To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally >ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which >they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so. Philip K. Dick for one. Clark goes on to berate me for thinking like a pelicanist (to use his own words 'what in hell' does that mean?). Clark rudely asks whether pelicanists can read, so telling us that we can only talk about abductions if we read Stuart Appelle's evaluation of the subject is obviously wasted on those of us who are branded by this term. Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned argument.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:45:02 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:39:21 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Gevaerd >From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage <snip> >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as balloons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >>With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >>Monday at: >>www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 >Hi Aj, and List, >I was wrong. Well, partly wrong. Robles Gil's videos are not all >balloons. The rest are hoaxes of a different sort. >Gil is a charlatan. >Reflections of Christmas lights in glass, photographed against >the sky through the glass. Some artful dodging with paint or >cardboard, as well. Ed Walters would be proud. >Thanks to Amy H., I was able to peruse a number of Gil's videos. >And at least one site where Gil's lies are revealed. >Follow the links, and you'll know thw truth, as well. >Case closed. Another hoaxer exposed. No quite, Kyle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Google Adsense UFO & Ghost Ads From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:34:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:42:27 -0400 Subject: Google Adsense UFO & Ghost Ads How many of you have seen those Google Adsense ads that asks "UFO Video - Is it real?". If you click it, it then takes you to a 'survey' which is designed to glean marketing info from you. Well, don't worry about it. I decided to go through all the crap for you. To save you guys all that grief here is the actual video: http://www.wimp.com/ufo The other Adsense ad is the "Freaky Ghost video". Again you must go through all the marketing crap to get to it. Here is the ghost video page. http://www.wimp.com/proof I am providing both without comment. Some of you may have seen the short ufo video before. I hadn't The site: http://wimp.com itself is actually kind of fun to peruse. It is updated daily with free pics, videos and games, most are veary funny, some are shocking. Except for the 'pop-unders' there is no other marketing. Terry Groff http://terrygroff.com Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON http://mufondfw.com/ http://mufondfw.blogspot.com/ UFO TOOLS http://ufotools.terrygroff.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:04:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:05:14 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:15:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:06:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>"4. On March 7, 1971, lunar instruments placed by the astronauts >>recorded a vapor cloud of water passing across the surface of >>the moon. The cloud lasted 14 hours and covered an area of about >>100 square miles." >>"It is concluded that during most of the event the observed >>water vapor ions were accelerated by the negative lunar surface >>electric potential and, secondly, that this event was probably >>the result of mission associated water vapor, either from the LM >>ascent and descent stage rockets or from residual water in the >>descent stage tanks." >>So much for the myth of the March 7, 1971 event! >Perhaps the "myth" is what's in the second paper. Assume that given 20 years of time in the development of lunar science between the two papers that there would be ENHANCED understanding rather than a fall into the Dark Ages of selective memory? In addition to these papers are many papers and analyses regarding the electric field around the Moon. This took alot of time to understand, but resulted in a more throrough analysis of the second paper. Indeed, why bother even writing a second paper if the analyses were correct the first time. I assume it is your opinion that they had to hide the evidence now and prove wrong the previous paper to satisfy some desire to keep the public in the dark. >The first one entitled "Water Vapor, whence comest >thou?" was in the Proceedings of the Third Lunar >Science Conference in 1972. Published in Jan 1972. The "first" paper I am referring to was the December 1972 paper "Observations of Water Vapor Ions at the Lunar Surface". >The paper gave 100,000 kg as a lower estimate of >the amount of water >vapor released. The estimate was based on the nearly >simultaneous detection at two Apollo landing sites located 183 >kilometers apart (Apollo 12 and Apollo 14). Well, alot of analysis must have gone on from the January to December time period because he states that" if we assume equivalent ion accelerating conditions for the two events and if the water vapor source was no closer than 27 km, we conclude that at least 500 kg of water was involved in the March 7 event." Also, "if an emission rate of 1 kg/sec of H2) was maintained on March 7 for a period of 14 hr, a total water emission of the order of 10,000kg is implied." Note that the ion emission was detected intermittently so clearly the amount would be much less than 10,000kg (which assumes continuous emissions). So we have an order of magnitude difference between the first paper and the second over a 1 year period. Of course, if you wish to extrapolate this continued reduction for 19 more years the amount would be less than 1 kg, but that is not valid, only funny. The key is that determining the amount of water is very tricky and requires certain assumptions which may be wild ass guesses. You need to know the location, surface area of the source, details of ionization/acceleration mechanisms. It is refreshing that the author was willing to continue working on the topic and write a new paper after 20 years! How often does that happen! And what would have been better for his funding, proof of large water deposits or disprove? Obviously the former! >The second paper retracted the very large estimate of the water >vapor released and concluded that a few hundred kg were >released, with a tank at the Apollo 14 landing site as the >proposed source of the water. The rationale for the drastically >revised estimate was insufficient understanding of the >electrical environment of the lunar surface at the time of the >first paper. Perfectly reasonable! As I said, its complex and took a long time to understand. >The curious thing about the second paper is that it >made no mention at all of what seemed to be the _salient_ fact >in the first paper: that the event was detected at two sites 183 >km apart. Only the Apollo 14 measurements were discussed in the >second paper. No explanation was given for the observations at >the Apollo 12 site on the same day. The December 1972 report states that the Apollo 12 SIDE MA (mass spectra analyzer) was too noisy and unusable. Although the Apollo 12 ion detector (counter) was working and correlated to the Apollo 14 site, the Apollo 12 site may have not even been water ions. Maybe thats why he excluded it. Or maybe it was irrelevant, since it is known that the the Apollo 12 detectors CAN detect Apollo 14 site emissions (from my "first" report, which is how they got their calibration for water mass estimates). Did you try to ask the author? >I'm far from being an expert on this subject, but the mysterious >disappearance of the Apollo 12 observations in the second paper >makes me wonder whether the estimate was revised to fit the >facts or the facts were revised to fit someone's preferred
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: Moving Moon Rocks - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:36:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Moving Moon Rocks - Smith >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:57:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Moving Moon Rocks >In relation to the discussion about rocks on the moon appearing >to move or to be artifically moved, check out this site: >http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues99/jul99/rocks.html Thanks for the link. I tend to think it is some different cause. Regarding this phenomena of moving boulders and their tracks which seem to be part of the myth of alien presence on the Moon (alien machines, etc), I got a copy of the paper "Boulder Tracks and Nature of Lunar Soil" 1973. It states: "Most of the tracks appeared to originate on a relatively steep crater or rille slope. Three boulder tracks in Handely rille seemed to orginate at a layer of rock outcrop. Although the cause of rolling is not known in every case, possible causes are: 1) Continuous phenomena: Instability and rolling may be cause by general gravity-induced, downslope transportation of material, the buildup of fillets above a boulder or the erosion of support under a boulder resting on a slope. Cyclic thermal expansion and contraction of rock and micrometeorite impact may also loosen rock from its parent outcrop, shape a rounded boulder from an angular block and cause rolling. 2) Erratic phenomena: Some tracks have orginated from blocks thrown out of impact craters. Seismic events (moonquakes) and impacts have undoubtedly also triggered the rolling of some boulders." These make sense to me!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:47:24 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:31:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >>>In the encyclopedia I wrote, in words that to me still make >>>more sense most others that I've read, especially by debunkers >>>who, as is their wont, find deeply threatening any hint of >>>ambiguity and unanswered question, "The resolution of the Hill >>>case awaits the resolution of the UFO question itself. If UFOs >>>do not exist, then Barney and Betty did not meet with aliens. If >>>UFOs do exist, they probably did. The evidence available to us >>>from this incident alone provides no answers surer than these. >>>In other words, no answers at all. For now, anyway." >>Yes, it is very interesting to note that Walter Webb, like >>McDonald, who were among the best researchers at the time, were >>unprepared to cope with the Hill case. It was so new. So, it is >>highly improbable that the Hills would have invented such a >>story. I think we can fairly conclude, adding that to the >>reality of Ufos, that it is a true story. >I don't think the Hill case was that novel or out of the ordinary in 1961. It has been argued that abductions were only noted in obscure UFO magazines unavailable to the Hills, yet if we look at the investigation of their case, they had long discussions with UFO experts within weeks of their encounter experience. From them they would have picked up plenty of information about current UFO research and theories. >It should also be noted that throughout the 1950s the contactee literature and science fiction on TV and in films often contained alien encounters and abductions. Nigel and the list, Many serious ufologist seem to agree that, yes, the Hill case was quite new. It seems dubious that they could have built such a story just by listening to some ufologists of that time. The contactee and "close encounter" cases were very different. And the abduction cases were rare, and different. And SF tales were
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:07:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:36:41 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:50:15 +0100 >Subject: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:26:21 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:19:27 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>"In his conversation with me (and with his wife since the >>sighting) a mental block occurred when [Barney Hill] mentioned >>the 'leader' peering out the window at him. Mr. Hill believes he >>saw something he doesn't want to remember. He claimed he was not >>close enough to see any facial characteristics on the figures, >>although at another time he referred to one of them looking over >>his shoulder and grinning and to the leader's expressionless >>face. However, it is my view that the observer's blackout is not >>of any great significance. I think the whole experience was so >>improbable and fantastic to witness - along with the very real >>fear of being captured adding to imagined fears - that his mind >>finally refused to believe what his eyes were perceiving and a >>mental block resulted." >>As these remarks indicate, the Hills recounted what would later >>be called "missing time" (and Webb calls "mental block" and >>"blockout") from the beginning, and they needed nobody to plant >>the concept in their heads. Their first account of it to an >>investigator was to somebody who actively rejected it. Webb's >>observations also underscore just how naive even the most >>informed ufologists of the period were about the phenomenon. >>Interesting that instead of trying to incorporate missing time >>into an ostensibly conventional theory of the Hill experience, >>debunkers try to deny its very occurrence. Strange are their >>ways, I guess. >But this paragraph by Webb is clearly not referring to the 2 >missing hours but to some kind of momentary mental block. The >missing two hours comes from the journey taking two hours longer >than it had done in the past. This could be due to any number of >reasons, driving slower than before, stopping for longer than >they thought they had, getting lost in the panic and confusion, >or falling asleep at some point. I guess we know why you're a pelicanist, and not a detective, Peter. Thank God; your capacity for actual harm to actual human beings is thereby considerably reduced. You're confusing - conveniently, I must say, and in the usual have- it-both-ways fashion of the pelicanist - Webb's dismissal of the significance of Barney Hill's confused testimony with the significance of what Hill seems to have been trying to say, which was that he had memories a very close encounter with aliens inconsistent both with his conscious memories and with the consciously recalled time line. The significance of Webb's dismissal speaks right to the point: that pelicanist doctrine notwithstanding, ufologists and witnesses had no concept of missing time in 1961. Nice (if predictable) try, though. In 1965, looking back on his 1961 investigation, Webb - by the way, one of the finest field investigators American ufology has ever produced - wrote, "When I met the Hills after their experience in the White Mountains, Barney appeared to be deeply concerned by the 'leader' in the UFO (first encountered) and by his failure to recall events immediately after watching this figure. Both witnesses were perplexed that they had no conscious recollection of events between the odd beeping sounds nor of the route they traveled in that interval." Now, folks, who you gonna believe: a bright, accomplished investigator who actually spoke with the Hills after their initial 1961 report - or Peter Rogerson? Who is the authority here? Yes, those are rhetorical questions. >It's hard to remember back damn near 40 years, but I don't >recall as a teenage ufo buff finding this story so unprecedented >even though I didn't encounter the AVB case till 1967. The >literature around at the time prepared us for it. Far from being >treated as a wild story heading for the wpb, the Hill story got >a respectful hearing from the start, even from my ever skeptical >colleague John Harney. Your memory is pretty dismal, Peter, though it does serve, if not very compellingly, your argument, such as it is. We may assume that no memory that failed to do so would ever be permitted to rise to the surface of Rogersonian consciousness. In reality, the Hill abduction story was a sensation in the ufology of the period, which had no known precedent for it. The reception, far from being "respectful," was mixed. The largest American organization of the time, NICAP, which had been responsible for the initial investigation of what then seemed a fairly typical CE3, rejected the abduction aspect outright as "A Dream via Hypnosis" (actual title of brief NICAP kiss-off in U.F.O. Investigator, August/September 1966, p. 8). Other ufologists - those who already were interested in CE3s (that didn't include everybody in early ufology, as historians of the subject are aware) - were more open-minded, but reservations about the efficacy of hypnosis remained a recurring theme in treatments of the abduction aspect. Webb himself concluded that the material that emerged under hypnosis explained aspects of the testimony that otherwise had made no sense to him. Again, on this subject, who you gonna believe? The guy who was actually there, or Peter Rogerson? Again, rhetorical questions. The rest of you who may be interested in what pre-Hill anomalistics and ufology were _actually_ like may wish to read my paper "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction Phenomenon." It's in The Anomalist 8 (Spring 2000): 11-31. The issue can be ordered from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:10:02 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:39:21 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:02:46 -0700 >Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:35:43 EDT >>Subject: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>PRG >>Paradigm Research Group >>PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - April 30, 2005 >>A Personal Note >>So much happened and is happening around the 2nd Annual >>Exopolitics Expo - X-Conference 2005 - it will take three or >>four emails to properly cover the material. I would like to >>begin with a personal note to all those who attended the >>conference and others who have received firsthand reports from >>attendees. <snip> >Regarding Stephen Bassett's apology about Monsignor Balducci's >keynote address, there is more that he could have apologized >for. >Oddly, Bassett's summary omits Balducci's astonishing comments >on the relative goodness of humans versus extraterrestrials. >Introducing his theme, and eerily setting the tone for the >entire conference, Balducci flatly declared that >"extraterrestrials will be more inclined to good" than are >humans. Warming up, he told his audience: "It's not possible >that beings more evil than us can exist in other worlds... we >are the worst of all!" >Balducci further explained that God created extraterrestrials >between humanity and the angels. In other words, ETs are by >nature spiritually superior to humans. >These are outrageous and completely unfounded statements, yet >because they are uttered by a religious authority may be taken >by some as gospel. >While it is unsurprising that Balducci preaches Church doctrine >that humanity is a "fallen" species and thus in need of the >salvation of Christ, his speculations about the moral status of >extraterrestrials are completely without basis in Catholic >theology, witness testimony, or rational discourse. >Others have noted that Balducci routinely ignores evidence that >extraterrestrials are as capable as humans of "sin" or moral >failure. For instance, Gordon Creighton wrote of Balducci: >"There is not a single word in anything that he has ever said or >written to indicate any knowledge whatsoever of such matters as >alien rape; crossbreeding; hybridization; removal of sperm and >ova; implants, or the widespread harassment of humans by UFO >entities, widespread mutilations of terrestrial animals, and >ghastly human mutilations too." >While it might be seen as useful for the exopolitical disclosure >movement to have the enthusiastic endorsement of a Vatican >prelate, Bassett would do well to distance himself from >irrational insistence on the God-given spiritual/moral >superiority of extraterrestrials. It would be helpful to those considering Michael's points to have a full translation of Balducci's scripted presentation and an effort will be made to get it translated and posted on the X-Conference website. Including any unscripted remarks is another level of difficulty and may not be possible in the near term. As for the content, PRG wants very much to see the great "debate in waiting" - good vs. bad aliens - fully underway in the public square. It is not PRG's intention to push forward one side of the debate over the other and both sides have been represented at the two X-Conferences. Rather it is PRG's mission to make a full and appropriate debate in the public arena possible by helping to end the truth embargo.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: Can This Be Majic? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:32:30 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:45:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Can This Be Majic? - Friedman >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:10:47 -0700 >>Subject: Can This Be Majic? >>Exempt From Disclosure: The Disturbing Case About the UFO >>Coverup, by Robert M. Collins and Richard C. Doty: Christopher >>Green MD, PhD in Neurophysiology now at Wayne State Medical >>Center in Michigan relates that many years ago one of his >>friends Richard Helms ex CIA Director at the time told him, >>"Always believe what Richard Doty tells you about UFOs." >>Richard Helms was briefed into the subject of UFOs in the early >>days. He knew about Roswell and knew the involvement of the CIA >>from around 1950 to the 1970s. Helms knew the NSA involvement >>with programs to capture ET signals. >>-Rick Doty >>About the Book >>Robert M. Collins and Richard C. Doty, Copyrighted 2005 by >>Peregrine Communications, all rights reserved. No part of the >>book, Exempt From Disclosure, may be reproduced stored in a >>retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, >>electronic, mechanical photocopying, recording, or otherwise, >>without the prior written permission of the authors; printed in >>the United States of America. <snip> >Greetings List people, >I remain a silent List-lurker here these days but the post from >Bill Hamilton is somewhat disappointing. >Richard Doty's involvement (with Bill Moore} is well known and >the fact that Robert Collins involvement as "Condor" in the >Television special, UFO Coverup-Live, is likely to have faded >into obscurity except for a few of us who recall this somewhat >'wasted TV time' was a major disappointment to serious UFO >researchers. >I wish that those 'MJ-12' devotees, including Bill Hamilton, >would take a more serious look at the real evidence regarding >MJ-12, and realise that it has all been nothing more than >baloney from the beginning..... >Only a great deal of wishfull thinking will preserve the >illusion that MJ-12 actually existed. I was gone for a week and missed this first time through. Murray since you seem to be focused on delicatessan, how about sending along some slices of evidence to support your comments? I have two items on my website "Operation Majestic 12 Update" and my Review of "Case MJ-12". Both detail why I am convinced that a number of Tim Cooper's MJ-12 documents are fraudulent and why I am convinced the EBD, TF, and CT memos and most likely SOM 1.01 are genuine. Evidence and facts, not proclamation please. I take it you have also read my "TOP SECRET/MAJIC" - new edition coming out in September with an additional chapter - and my various other items such as my MUFON 2000 paper, my 106 page "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12", my "Operation Majestic 12? YES!". Potshots and proclamations without evidence make for a tasteless stew of bias and ignorance.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:44:21 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so. Jerry, and all, That's a really good point. But there is more to say about SF authors and readers. I noticed since a long time that most of them strongly dislike UFOs, with a few exceptions. I think they see them as a kind of threat, or unloyal competion to the "noble art" of science-fiction. However, things may be changing now, with some SF production coming closer to the UFO lore, like the series "Taken". What I find interesting to watch is signs a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Exopolitics Courses & Seminars From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:49:48 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:56:45 -0400 Subject: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars Aloha All, I hope you excuse me for promoting my forthcoming summer courses in exopolitics that start in the week of May 16. I think they are samples of the kinds of courses one will eventually encounter in graduate University programs once there is open disclosure of the ET presence. So the courses are a way that prospective students and the instructor can analyze the extensive exopolitical data that exists. The course structure, content and evaluation is modeled on the graduate courses I have taught at American University, Washington DC.; George Washington University; and the Australian National University. So in that sense prospective students will find it similar to many online courses offered by universities. The main difference is that the content is 'exopolitics' which is still not considered a serious academic study at most universities, and there is no formal association with any accredited teaching center. When I approached the former Director of the Center for Global Peace at American University in January 2003 for permission to publish my very first exopolitics article under the auspices of the Center. He replied to the effect that "such a topic has no place in the Center, nor at American University." That basically stymied my first effort to have exopolitics research considered at the university level, and I also had to cancel a scheduled disclosure lecture I had organized with Dr Steven Greer at American University for early 2003 which he had agreed to conduct. The Director's response also set in place a process whereby my eight year affiliation with American University was eventually not renewed for my temerity in having the Washington Post conduct an interview with me of my research into allegations of Eisenhower having met with a delegation of extraterrestrials in February 20, 1954. The testimonies I collected for that alleged meeting can be read at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper-8.htm I think that the most powerful circumstantial evidence supporting the existence of such a meeting is that on March 1, 1954 (9 days later), the US conducted its Bravo Test of the Hydrogen bomb where a 15 megaton test occurred on the Bikini atoll. I think it very plausible that visiting ETs would have known of the forthcoming test and arranged for a diplomatic meeting with President Eisenhower to ask for an abandonment of thermonuclear weapons testing. I think I have already made the case for why exopolitics research is valid despite the lack of hard evidence, and corroborating witness testimony for many of the whistleblowers cited in my exopolitics research. The exopolitical research method is presented in the very first course, "Introduction to Exopolitics", that examines the main evidentiary sources of exopolitics. The course systematically examines data from whistleblowers, witnesses, contactees/abductees, independent archeologists, remote viewing, and, yes, 'channeling to provide students some exposure to the main data circulating in the field. The course then moves on to examining the main theories accounting for the motivations and activities of extraterrestrials. You can get an idea of the course structure and content by reading my first online study paper: http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper1.htm The second course is "Citizen Diplomacy with Extraterrestrials" which examines the kinds of issues that private citizens have when establishing communications and interactions with visiting extraterrestrial races. Starting with the alleged Eisenhower meeting, the data supporting the existence of 'official' galactic diplomacy with extraterrestrials is overwhelming in my view. I believe that rather than stop at efforts to disclose the truth of the secret diplomacy conducted by the "shadow government" (or the "secret government within the government" as Bill Clinton alleged to Sarah McClendon) we need to learn about the basics of 'citizen' or 'track two' diplomacy so they can initiate their own diplomatic initiatives with visiting extraterrestrials. I think that the exclusive focus on finding incontrovertible proof of the extraterrestrial presence no longer serves the purpose it once did and we now need to take action to directly mitigate the egregious effects of the current diplomatic agreements between the 'shadow government' and some extraterrestrial races. You can find out more about the two summer exopolitics courses at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Courses.htm For those interested further in the idea of 'citizen diplomacy with extraterrestrial's, I recommend taking a look at the one week seminars that I have co-organized that examine the different extraterrestrials races visiting the earth, their motivations and activities. My study paper describing the different ET races is available at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Report-ET-Motivations.htm . Information about the "Citizen Diplomacy" seminars which are held in Hawaii and include dolphin swims is available at: http://www.galacticdiplomacy.com/GD-Seminars.htm . I think that members of the diplomatic community should be the first to take advantage of this seminar and also the diplomacy course since quite simply, they are being decieved by the procedures and mechanisms put in place by the 'shadow government' that such alleged official diplomacy with extaterrestrials is fiction. Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize with the various issues concerning exopolitics and 'galactic diplomacy' through courses and seminars similar to those I'm conducting, will be best placed to deal with the challenges that lie ahead as we move into an era of open disclosure of visiting
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:25:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:59:18 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:03:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >>segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >>released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >>At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >>pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >>explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >I watched these earlier tapes a while ago. >I am afraid that you and your fellow Mexican UFO researchers are >being made fools of with sometimes sophisticated and complex >balloon releases. And the sad thing is that it is likely >hometown boys who are doing this so it can't be blamed on the >Gringos. Sure they are impressive and beautiful to watch, but >they can easily be explained as balloons. >Viewing the "100's" flotilla show no difference from balloons, >some of the balloons are three tied together. There is some >slight movement between balloons and implies they are all at the >same altitude and moving at fairly the same speed, with minor >fluctuations. >Other Mexican "UFO" videos with slow moving objects almost >always look/act like balloons. The "character" shaped wormy >"UFOs" are simply either sheathed of lightweight material with >balloons on the inside or the sheath IS the balloon. >If I saw complex fast movement, circling, darting, then I would >be more inclined to put the UFO moniker on these videos. >However, they are pretty and videographically impressive, but >balloons. I am afraid it is not that simple, James. I have watched quite carefully the videos and read a few reports and witness=B4s accounts of the "flotillas", and I am inclined to believe that _some_ of them definitely have no easy explanation. If any. The simply defy logic in all terms. Sure, I certainly agree with the fact that there are involuntary misunderstandings of some images, that ended up included as genuine flotillas, and -- just as with the crop circles -- some voluntary hoaxs, perpetrated by people taking advantage of the situation. It is a natural thing. However, to simply rule all the flotillas as either hoaxes or genuine UFO fleets is a big mistake. Each case has to be analyzed separatelly, to start with. Then, take the ones which defy explanation and analyze them as group, observing and registering their common behavior, shapes, sizes, flight patterns etc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:33:03 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:01:58 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:11:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >>segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >>released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >>You can check the previous ones at: >>www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico >>One of the new videos is dated March 30 and two are dated April >>11. I've watched the material carefully, several times and >>strongly suggest you do the same. >>At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >>pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >>explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >>With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >>Monday at: >>www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 >As I pointed out in an earlier message, the first 'UFO Fleet' >film was by Delbert Newhouse, Navy photographer, near Tremonton >Utah in July, 1952. This is a famous film in UFO history. At the >time no one referred to it as a "flotilla" or "fleet" of UFOs... >but there were many of them. >The Condon analyst, Hartmann, suggested that they were birds. Of >course, little attention was paid to the description given by >Newhouse when the objects were close. Minutes later he managed >to film them and by that time thy were quite a distance away. Hello Bruce: Exactly as Hartmann suggested in the case you mention, some researchers in Mexico suggested that a few of the flotillas could be birds. I agree with that partly: some of the poorest footage could be of birds, but not the most clear and distinctive ones. The problem is that these experts selected the wrong ones to explain as birds, exactly the ones that seem more unusual and defyiant. In the particular case of February 27, 2005, that was considered birds by the "experts", the fleet moved at a considerable speed and the objects have a distinctive round shape. No wings. But, even if not birds, it doesn'=B4t mean that it was a fleet of flying saucers. I believe the question is still open.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:55:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:03:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology ..... Nigel, Where in the name of heavens did you get that idea from? Of all of the cases out there you pick this as being the most important? >On a more important and final point where is the objective, >empirical evidence for the Hill abduction?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:10:26 -0400 Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting The April 11, 2005 UFO incidents over Mexico city Mexican researcher and skywatcher Ana Luisa Cid made an excellent research on the April 11, 2005 UFO fleet incidents over Mexico city and I would like to post her report as part of this updated investigation. Our thanks to Ana Luisa for a serious and professional work. Santiago ----- UFO Fleets Over Mexico by Ana Luisa Cid The most recent material that I have the opportunity to investigate about the UFO fleets correspond to the one videotaped by Mexican researcher Mr. Raul Orozaco Montaxo, informatic consultant with more than ten years of experience as a skywatcher and member of the UFO Corporation Group. Mr. Orozco has distinguished himself by the quality of his UFO videos and the honesty he has demonstrated on his investigations. He explained to me that in their organization they utilize a specific technology to detect aerial objects and this technique has proved to be efficient to improve the quality of the video evidences. One of these events videotaped was the sighting that took place on the morning of April 11, 2005 at the Viaducto Tlalpan zone in Mexico city. It's attracts the attention that a big sphere preceed the objects formation, situation that has been also registered in other sightings of this kind. When I reviewed this video and studied the first spheres group I noticed a triangular formation that remains unaltered discarding - in my personal opinion - the posibility of balloons. As a person interested in the UFO phenomena and being a primary teacher I have witnessed the throwing of massive amount of balloons many times and I have never observed these characteristics: Defined and constant formations. Back to the April 11, 2005 by Mr. Raul Orozco is interesting to listen on the audio portion of the video how Mr. Orozco is calling - by cell phone - Mr. Salvador Guerrero - Mexican researcher/skywatcher/videographer - advicing him of the sighting that he is witnessing and videotaping and then Salvador Guerrero called me to inform me about this new sighting taking place so we started this investigation. NOTE: The prompt communication among the witness and researchers while the sighting was still taking place made a perfect sinchronization to get the evidences and facts of the April 11, 2005 sighting in a concerted colaboration. This effort give us an idea of how the Mexican UFO research teams are tuned among each other. Mr. Raul Orozco declared that the UFO fleet was located at a high altitude and by consequence the size of the spheres must have been considerable big and adds textually: Mr. Orozco: "Always that I witness a sighting I call some other persons because I think it's important to have more witness to confirm what I'm videotaping. About the April 11, 2005 sighting I don't have any explanation yet because the event was very strange and unknown. This video was shown to an expert in fluids who wish to keep his name anonimous. In his point of view he told me that these objects on the video don't behave like aerial objects but like if they were travelling in a kind of liquid enviroment. I know that sometimes we could be deceived by balloons but if we are good observers we will realize that there is a clear difference among balloons and a real UFO fleet specially in the flying path and whole movement. Balloons always behave shaking and are guided by air draught. When they reach higher altitudes they scatter and take diferent directions. To be more specific I will show you a video of a bunch of balloons where you will clearly see when zooming to several of them their cord is visible. It's important to use manual focus when taping to get better sharpness and avoid distorsions." Mr. Raul Orozco changed the date on his videocamera during this balloons experiment to establish that this was not a legitimate sighting. To get more deep into these investigations one must find out first if there was any important public event in the city that may have resulted in a throwing of balloons to the sky. Therefore I decided to interview a distinguished reporter from the Image Group as they are always covering those important public events and I think his statements are relevant to this case. Mr. Gerardo Martinez Fernandez - Grupo Imagen : "In the month of April, 2005 there was only one massive event where many hundreds of balloons were thrown to the sky. This was a large concentration of people - for a political cause - gathered on the Zocalo ( Mexico city's bigger public square ) the morning of April 7, therefore I find hard to belive those balloons could remain in the sky till April 11 " Another qualified opinion that complement this investigation is the statement from Mr. Enrique Kolbeck, Mexican air traffic controller that has reported in past ocasions presences of not identified echos in their radar screens. Mr. Kolbeck as an aeronautical expert gave me his comments after reviewing Mr. Raul Orozco's April 11, 2005 video. Mr. Enrique Kolbeck: "These objects don't have the characteristics of balloons neither the condition. They don't present the usual disorganized movements of balloons, on the countrary these anomalous objects behave themselves in a very arranged way. I don't know what kind of phenomena could these sightings be categorized but these images are very similar to other videos of similar anomalous objects that we have reviewed and analyzed before where we have concluded these objects don't match any aeronautical concept known by us." I questioned Mr. Kolbeck if these April 11th objects were detected by the airport radar that morning. He responded that nothing abnormal was detected by their radar the morning of April 11, 2005 but added that it was because those objects were below their radar detection range that is below 6 or 7 km. altitude. Kolbeck explained how he made this calculation because he also analyzed a similar video taken the same day and hour by another witness living near from Mr. Raul Orozco's place. In this video the objects appear below some high clouds ( cirrus ), element that allowed Mr. Kolbeck to calculate the altitude these objects were, coinciding with the estimation that this witness gave me at that time. Another interesting coincidence that I would like to mention took place the exact day April 11 but last year 2004. Salvador Guerrero and myself had the chance of videotape the sighting of several anomalous objects over the city and this sighting attracted the attention of the media. The newspaper La Prensa published an article by reporter Pablo Chavez under the title, Are These UFO Fleets Videos Only Mistaken Interpretations Or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2 Michael Barkun's 'A Culture of Conspiracy' From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:27:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:17:35 -0400 Subject: Michael Barkun's 'A Culture of Conspiracy' From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:21:22 -0700 Subj: [forteana] Michael Barkun's A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America In the summer of 1994, less than a year before blowing up the Oklahoma City federal office building, Timothy McVeigh visited Area 51, the secret Nevada installation where the U.S. government allegedly keeps crashed UFOs and captured aliens. McVeigh protested restrictions on public access to the base, but also had long been fascinated with flying saucers and extraterrestrials. On death row he watched the movie Contact, about a scientist who contacts aliens, six times in two days. McVeigh, as Syracuse University political scientist Michael Barkun points out, was also reportedly an ardent listener of the shortwave radio broadcasts of conspiracy theorist Milton William Cooper, who first emerged in UFO circles in the 1980's and later gained a large audience among anti-government activists. Michael Barkun cites Timothy McVeigh's interest in UFO's, Area 51, Contact, and Milton William Cooper to open his book A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America (Berkeley, Los Angeles, and London: University of California Press, 2003; Comparative Studies in Religion and Society, 15). McVeigh's and Cooper's interests, Barkun believes, were not "merely the peculiarities" of eccentric individuals (Michael Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, "Preface," p. ix). Barkun, Professor of Political Science at the Maxwell School, Syracuse University, has explored right-wing conspiracy theories and apocalyptic millennial obsessions in Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement (rev. ed., University of North Carolina Press, 1997) and Disaster and the Millennium (Yale University Press, 1974; Syracuse University Press, 1986). In A Culture of Conspiracy, he .argues that McVeigh's and Cooper's "connection" between "antigovernment politics and UFOs" was "not unique" (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. ix).. Barkun describes a whole subculture combining a devotion to anti-government, anti-"New World Order" or anti-Semitic conspiracy theorizing with a fascination with UFO's and other "stigmatized knowledge." By "stigmatized knowledge," Barkun means "claims to truth that the claimants regard as verified despite the marginalization of those claims by the institutions that conventionally distinguish between knowledge and error--universities, communities of scientific researchers, and the like" (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 26). It includes beliefs in UFO's, alien abductions, conspiracies, racial hierarchies, astrology, alchemy, alternative medicine, "End Time" prophecies, lost continents, underground civilizations, etc. Throughout the 1980's and 1990's, Barkun documents in A Culture of Conspiracy, right-wing conspiracy theories about Jewish, Catholic, Masonic, Illuminati, "New World Order," and "International Bankers" world domination plots increasingly mingled with beliefs about visitors from outer space. Barkun does "not know whether McVeigh himself was affected by these speculations" (A Culture of Conspiracy, p. ix), but his interests were clearly shared by many others discussed by Barkun--by writers and publicists like Cooper, David Icke, "Branton," "Valdamar Valerian," Jim Keith, Texe Marrs, Kenn Thomas, and "Commander X." Similar hybrid UFO/Illuminati, alien/Jewish, and extraterrestrial/New World Order conspiracy theories proliferated after the September 2001 World Trade Center and Pentagon terrorist attacks, he observes.. They blended the prophecies of Nostradamus, UFOs, Illuminati and Masonic conspiracy theories, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and theories about the Illuminati (an 18th century revolutionary secret society allegedly still in existence and masterminding contemporary revolutionary movements) in strange and unpredictable ways--often mingled with alternative medicine, black helicopters, animal mutilations, "Men in Black," Atlantis, Lemuria, underground civilizations, secret government treaties with space aliens, Christian fundamentalist "End Time" scenarios, and "New Age" warnings of impending cataclysmic "earth changes." Traditional religious and secular millennialisms, which saw history as culminating in a final spiritual, class, or racial conflict followed by the Second Coming of Christ, the Marxist Classless Society, or the final triumph of the Nordic Aryan master race over lesser breeds, were joined and partly supplanted by an eclectic "improvisational millennialism"(as Barkun calls it), indiscriminately cobbling together apocalyptic and millennial scenarios from a variety of assorted religious, secular, occult, pseudo-scientific, and "New Age" sources--from the Book of Revelation, but also from the predictions of Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, the F=E1tima visionaries, and various New Age gurus and channelers. This conspiracy theorizing and "improvisational millennialism" are part of a general fascination with "stigmatized knowledge."."Such "stigmatized knowledge"--about conspiracies, UFO's, racial differences, "earth changes," "End Times," Atlantis, or alternative medicine- -MUST be true, they feel, because the government, universities, mainstream scientists, "Establishment" media, and "mainline" churches are trying to suppress or dismiss it! More broadly, Barkun sees an eclectic, improvisational, boundary-crossing character in much contemporary conspiracy theorizing and its devotion to "stigmatized knowledge." Popular culture, the Internet, and subcultures like the UFO movement, Barkun emphasizes, have encouraged a promiscuous and omnivorous exchange of ideas, themes, and interests that in the past might have been hermetically insulated from each other. We now have a lively interchange of ideas and themes between science-fiction and radical politics, UFO buffs and conspiracy theorists, spread back and forth by New Age and UFO publications, by popular culture phenomena like The X-Files, and by websites and radio programs. Science-fiction and UFO aficionados who might have never paid any attention to right-wing conspiracy theories in the past are now being increasingly exposed to such theories in UFO-related contexts--while political conspiracy believers are getting increasingly exposed to stories about UFO's and aliens being worked into their conspiracist scenarios. People who in the past might never have been interested in anti-Semitic, anti- Catholic, Illuminati, Masonic, or New World Order conspiracy theories are now getting introduced to such beliefs through the UFO subculture--which has thus become a conduit for political conspiracy theorizing into the broader society. These hybrid cross-fertilizations of conspiracy, UFO, and "New Age" themes "were not combinations" Barkun "would have expected to find." He had "assumed that those with a right-wing, antigovernment agenda were altogether different from believers in UFOs." His "first inkling" that "such boundaries might be crossed" had come in the 1990's, as he was reading through extremist literature for his book Religion and the Racist Right (rev. ed.,1997).While much of this literature was "predictable," with its "diatribes against Jews and blacks," there were "unexpected intrusions of material that, though certainly not considered mainstream, was neither racist nor antigovernment." The literature discussed "processed foods (which the writers condemned), garlic (whose medicinal attributes they touted), and environmental pollution (which they wished to eliminate)." He found "material that would not have been out of place in leftist publications or those for New Age readers." Thus, when Barkun found "right-wing conspiracism emerging in UFO circles," this suggested that the "odd juxtapositions" he had found earlier "might be part of a larger pattern in which seemingly discrete beliefs cohabited." Michael Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, "Preface," pp. ix-x"). Despite his "many references to UFOs," Barkun emphasizes that "this is not a book about flying saucers." He does "not know whether they exist or, if they do, where they come from;" and does "not address either of those questions." Rather, he examines the "fusion of right-wing conspiracy theories with UFO motifs." as a "study of how certain dissimilar ideas have migrated from one underground subculture to another." Many readers, Barkun concedes, "may regard both sets of ideas as bizarre and may question whether this is terrain worth exploring." He has "addressed such skepticism in earlier books on millennialism," and believes that "it makes little sense to exclude ideas from examination merely because they are not considered respectable." Failing to analyze them "will not keep some people from believing them," and "history is littered with academically disreputable ideas that have had devastating effects--for example, the scientific acceptance of racial differences in the nineteenth century". Failure to examine those ideas "did not cause them to disappear." His "examination of certain odd beliefs" thus "does not signify" his "acceptance of them."(Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. x). The "convergence of conspiracy theories with UFO beliefs," Barkun feels, is "worth examining for two reasons." First, he notes, it has "brought conspiracism to a large new audience." UFO writers, he points out," have long been suspicious of the U.S. government, which they believe has suppressed crucial evidence of an alien presence on earth." Still, "in the early years they did not, by and large, embrace strong political positions." That, however, "began to change in the late 1980's and early 1990's, with the first appearance in UFO circles of references to right-wing conspiracism." During the next decade, such borrowing "accelerated," and thus "brought right-wing conspiracism to people who otherwise would not have been aware of it." (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. x-xi). Secondly, Barkun sees this "combination" as a "striking example of a new and growing form of millennialism, which I call improvisational millennialism." Unlike earlier forms of millennialism (Judaeo-Christian, Enlightenment progressivist, Marxist, anarchist, or Nazi/Fascist), which "elaborated themes from individual religious or secular traditions,"this new "improvisational millennialism" is "wildly eclectic". Its" undisciplined borrowings from unrelated sources" allow its devotees to "build novel systems of belief" cross-cutting traditional religious and secular categories (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. xi). As to "the subculture of UFO speculation itself," Barkun sometimes refers to it as ufology, borrowing a term from UFO writers, though he employs it in a "narrower sense." The "ufology literature," he notes, "ranges widely, from conventional scientific investigation to fringe conspiracism." Because Barkun's "concern is with the latter," he reminds his readers that uses "ufology" to "apply only to the ideas of this minority within the larger community of UFO believers."(Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. xi). Thus, he does not discuss the non-conspiracist UFO and abduction literature of writers like Jacques Vallee (whose criticisms of some conspiracist UFO writers he does quote a few times, however), Stanton Friedman, Budd Hopkins, Whitley Strieber, David M. Jacobs, John Mack, and the late Donald E. Keyhoe, J. Allen Hynek, and Coral & Jim Lorenzen. Such ufologists, often speculating about government UFO cover-ups but uninterested in Jewish, Catholic, Illuminati, Masonic, or New World Order world domination plots, lie outside Barkun's field of concern. Barkun, however, discusses a few prominent UFO movement figures of the 1950's, like "contactee" George Adamski (1891-1965) and prolific UFO and occult writer George Hunt Williamson (1926-1986), who held anti-Semitic and/or conspiracist views (A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 150-151, 154- 156). He stresses Williamson's--and possibly also Adamski's-- close ties with occultist, anti-Semite, and native Fascist William Dudley Pelley (1890-1965), founder of the Depression-era "Silver Shirts" and convicted World War II seditionist (A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 150, 153-156). Pelley and Adamski, he notes, had a common interest in Guy and Edna Ballard's 1930's "I Am" cult, which combined occult beliefs borrowed from Theosophy with native Fascist sympathies (pp. 114, 154). There were "multiple ties among channelers, occultists, UFO buffs, and followers of Pelley," suggesting that "the domain of stigmatized knowledge in the 1950's was one in which mystic and anti-Semitic teachings mingled freely" (p. 157). Noting that "the domain of stigmatized knowledge" has "always" shown a "laissez-faire character," where the "devotee" is "free to choose whichever ideas appeal and ignore the rest" (A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 157), Barkun emphasizes the dual character of "ufology" as a field where scientific investigation of puzzling aerial phenomena is mingled with occult and "New Age" speculations ultimately derived from 19th century Spiritualism and Theosophy.He stresses the importance of "channeling," and communications from purported "channeled" entities, in occult- oriented ufology. There is "considerable truth" in Duke University religious studies scholar and UFO movement historian Brenda Denzler's view that "the contactee movement was, in effect, a conduit through which established spiritualist and Theosophical ideas and practices moved into the UFO community" (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p 149, quoting Brenda Denzler The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions, Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs [Berkeley: University of California Press, 2001], p. 46) In "a manner not unlike its nineteenth- century predecessors," Barkun finds (p. 149), "the contactee movement claims to receive spiritual communications as a result of extraordinary, often paranormal, experiences." Barkun also cites Dr. Denzler on the wide contemporary prevalence of UFO belief among millions of normal "mainstream" middle-class Americans. Such "mainstreaming" of UFO belief, he feels, helps widen the social base of people liable to being exposed to conspiracist ideas through ufology. Statistics of polls and surveys since 1947 of people who have seen UFO's, believe that extraterrestrials may have visited the Earth, claim they have been abducted, or believe in alien abduction have "remained astonishingly stable over a fifty-year period," and been "extraordinarily high, regardless of when the survey was taken or by which polling organization.". Even if "one compensates for problems of sampling or the wording of questions," still "tens of millions of Americans accept the reality of UFO's" (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 81) In a survey of 765 members of the UFO community, he notes, Brenda Denzler "found her respondents to be anything but 'fringe.'" Rather, they were mainly white, male, middle-class college graduates, with incomes just slightly below the national median (A Culture of Conspiracy, citing Brenda Denzler The Lure of the Edge, pp. 164-167). Barkun gives some general observations on conspiracy theories. The "common thread of conspiracism" is the "belief that powerful, hidden, evil forces control human destinies (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 2) "Trust no one" was "one of the mantras repeated on The X-Files," and it "neatly encapsulates the conspiracist's limitless suspicions." Its "association with a popular end-of-the-millennium television program" shows "how prevalent conspiracy thinking has become.".Indeed, the period since President John F. Kennedy's assassination in 1963 has "seen the rise of a veritable cottage industry of conspiracism, with ever more complex plots and devious forces behind it." While "much of this mushrooming" reflects the "traumatic effect of specific events," that "seems an insufficient explanation on its own" to Barkun. Conspiracist thinking has "grown too luxuriantly to be fully explained even by events as shocking as the Kennedy assassination or the rapid spread of AIDS," he feels. Rather, it suggests an "obsessive concern with the magnitude of hidden evil powers." It is "perhaps no surprise that such a concern should manifest as a millennium was coming to a close and the culture was rife with apocalyptic anxiety." (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 2). A "conspiracist worldview," for Barkun, "implies a universe governed by design rather than by randomness". This "emphasis on design" shows itself in "three principles found in virtually every conspiracy theory." First, "Nothing happens by accident." Conspiracy "implies a world based on intentionality, from which accident and coincidence have been removed," where "anything that happens occurs because it has been willed." Secondly, "Nothing is as it seems.," as "appearances are deceptive, because conspirators wish to deceive in order to disguise their identities or their activities." Finally, "Everything is connected." Since "the conspiracists' world has no room for accident, pattern is believed to be everywhere, albeit hidden from plain view." The conspiracy theorist must "engage in a constant process of linkage and correlation in order to map the hidden connections." (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy. pp. 3-4). Barkun distinguishes three types of conspiracy theories, according to their scope .They range from "those directed at explaining some single, limited occurrence" like the Kennedy assassination to "those so broad that they constitute the world views of those who hold them." In "ascending order of breadth," they are what he calls event conspiracies, systemic conspieacies, and superconspiracies. In "event conspiracies," the "conspiracy is held to be responsible for a limited, discrete event or set of events," like the Kennedy assassination, the crash of TWA flight 800, the spread of AIDS in the Black community, or the burning of Black churches in the 1990's. In "systemic conspiracies," it is "believed to have broad goals" of "securing control over a country, a region, or even the entire world." While the "goals" are "sweeping," the "conspiratorial machinery" is "simple," a "single, evil organization" plotting to "infiltrate and subvert existing institutions." Here we find "conspiracy theories that focus on the alleged machinations of Jews, Masons, and the Catholic Church," and "theories centered on communism or international capitalists." Finally, "superconspiracies" are "conspiratorial constructs" where "multiple conspiracies" are "linked together hierarchically," with "event" and "systemic" conspiracies "joined in complex ways, so that conspiracies come to be nested within one another". The "summit of the conspiratorial hierarchy" is a "distant but all powerful evil force manipulating lesser conspiratorial actors."These master conspirators are "groups both invisible and operating in secrecy," their very existence unsuspected by the general public--e.g., the Illuminati and/or space aliens. "Superconspiracies" have "enjoyed particular growth since the 1980's," with" authors such as David Icke, Valdamar Valerian, and Milton William Cooper," whom Barkun discusses extensively in his book (A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 6) Conspiracy theories, Barkun observes, "purport to be empirically relevant;" "testable by the accumulation of evidence about the observable world." Their proponents "often engage in elaborate presentations of evidence in order to substantiate their claims." Thus, "conspiracist literature often mimics the apparatus of source citation and evidence presentation found in conventional scholarship" Even as "stigmatization is employed as a virtual guarantee of truth," the "literature of stigmatized knowledge enthusiastically mimics mainstream scholarship" by "appropriating the apparatus of elaborate citations and bibliographies." It shows "a fondness for reciprocal citation, in which authors obligingly cite one another," so that "the same sources are repeated over and over," producing "a kind of pseudoconfirmation" where "if a source is cited many times, it must be true" (A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 6-7, 28). . Historian Richard Hofstadter, Barkun notes, observed this pattern almost forty years ago in his examination of what he called the paranoid political style. "The very fantastic character of [conspiracy theories'] conclusions leads to heroic strivings for 'evidence' to prove that the unbelievable is the only thing that can be believed," according to Hofstadter. The result was a literature that, "if not wholly rational," was "at least intensely rationalistic." [Richard Hofstadter, The Paranoid Style in American Politics and Other Essays (New York: Knopf, 1965), p. 36, 38-39, cited in Barkun, A Culture of Conpiracy, pp. 7, 29] Elsewhere, Hofstadter observed that "there is a great difference between locating conspiracies in history and saying that history is, in effect, a conspiracy, between singling out those conspiratorial acts that do on invasion occur and weaving a vast fabric of social explanation of nothing but skeins of evil plots"[Richard Hofstadter, "Populism: Nostalgic Agrarianism, The Two Nations"<http://www.mc.cc.md.us/Departments/hpolscrv/Populism.ht ml>] Indeed, Barkun found, "conspiracy theorists insist on being judged by the very canons of proof that are used in the world they despise and distrust, the world of academia and the intelligentsia." For "all its claims to populism," conspiracy theory "yearns to be admitted to the precincts where it imagines the conspirators themselves dwell" [A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 29] Conspiracy theories."resist traditional canons of proof because they reduce highly complex phenomena to simple causes." This, he notes, is "ordinarily a characteristic much admired in scientific theories, where it is referred to as "parsimony.'" Conspiracy theories, he finds--"particularly the systemic theories and the superconspiracy theories discussed above"--are "nothing if not parsimonious, for they attribute all of the world's evil to the activities of a single plot, or set of plots." (A Culture of Conspiracy, p. 7) As background, Barkun traces the history of several originally saucer-less conspiracy myths popular among contemporary UFO conspiracists who have added an extraterrestrial component-- including the Illuminati and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Illuminati legend, he shows, is based on the Bavarian Illuminati (formally, the Order of Illuminists), a republican and anti-religious secret society founded in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt, an ex-Jesuit and professor of canon law at the University of Ingolstadt. Following Jesuit and Masonic organizational models, dedicated to replacing Christianity and monarchy by radical Enlightenment ideals, and infiltrating some Masonic lodges, the Illuminati attracted around 2,500 members, mostly in German-speaking areas, before being suppressed by the Bavarian authorities in 1787. While Weishaupt's Order of Illuminists itself lasted only some 11 or 12 years, it served as a model for many 19th century revolutionary groups. It also enjoyed an amazing afterlife among 19th and 20th century right- wing writers who claimed it had never really been dissolved, but had gone underground, secretly masterminding the French Revolution and many later subversive and revolutionary movements--by itself or in conjunction with the Jews (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 45-47). The Illuminati, acting through front organizations like the Masons and Jacobins, were blamed for the French Revolution by counter-revolutionary monarchist propagandists like John Robison in Proofs of a Conspiracy (1798) and the Abb=E9 Barruel in Memoirs, Illustrating the History of Jacobinism (1803). In the 20th century, the legend of Weishaupt's group inspired a far more complex and grandiose superconspiracy theory with Jews, Masons, and Communists as tools or accomplices of the Illuminati--or even the Illuminati themselves as a Jewish tool or front. These Illuminati/Jewish superconspiracy theories were developed in the 1920's by two Englishwomen, Nesta Webster (1876-1960) and Lady Queensborough (d. 1933). In mid-20th century America, the Illuminati were revived as the secret wire- pullers of all the world's revolutionary and subversive groups by the John Birch Society, which also promoted Robison's and Barruel's books as authoritative scholarly studies of Illuminati machinations. Then, in the 1980's and 1990's, the Illuminati and "Elders of Zion" were intertwined with UFO's and aliens by superconspiracy theorists like Milton William Cooper, David Icke, and Valdamar Valerian (Barkun, A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 45-50, 130). Barkun similarly traces (A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 49-50, 55, 130) the history of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.. That traditional staple of anti-Semitic conspiracy literature was likewise linked up with UFO and alien themes in the 1980's and 1990's by writers like Milton William Cooper and David Icke. The popularity of the Jewish/Illuminati link on the American far right was reinforced by the circulation in the 1920's of Victor Marsden's English translation of the Protocols, whose contents were disseminated in the United States by Henry Ford in his newspaper, The Dearborn Independent. The Protocols were allegedly a transcript of 24 speeches to an assembly of Jewish "Elders" plotting to rule the world, describing the methods the Jews and their Masonic allies would use to subvert governments and institutions. As scholars and journalists soon discovered, the Protocols were a forgery concocted by the Tsarist Russian secret police in the early 1900's, plagiarized from two mid-19th century sources: Maurice Joly's A Dialogue in Hell: Conversations between Machiavelli and Montesquieu about Power and Right, a satire against Napoleon III having nothing to do with the Jews, and an anti-Semitic novel, Biarritz,, by "Sir John Retcliffe" (Hermann Goedsche). A Culture of Conspiracy focuses on the linkage of UFO and conspiracist themes developed in one American subculture in the 1980's and 1990's, so Barkun pays little attention to saucer- less conspiracy theorists, except as historical precursors of Milton William Cooper, David Icke., and Valdamar Valerian. Thus, there is no mention of conspiracists like Senator Joe McCarthy or Lyndon LaRouche, or of right-wing populist Establishment- bashers like Rush Limbaugh. Likewise, while he often alludes to the Kennedy assassination literature in passing, Barkun never really discusses conspiracist interpretations of Dallas and Dealey Plaza--including the allegation that 1947 Maury Island saucer hoaxer (or alleged hoaxer) Fred Crisman was one of the three "tramps,"actually assassins, arrested at the Grassy Knoll! We never hear of Lyndon LaRouche's superconspiracist view of history as a millennia-long conflict of republican "Platonist" apostles of scientific rationality, a logically and mathematically coherent cosmos, technological progress, and universal technological progress to uplift the masses versus oligarchic irrationalist "Aristotelian" empiricists, mystics, occultists, and nature-worshippers favoring an agrarian feudal society of wealthy aristocrats ruling over half-starved peasants. Barkun does not explore why some people in our society are attracted to UFO/consporacist/millennialist world-views while others remain indifferent, skeptical, or hostile. He mentions a general millennium's-rend mood of anxiety and obsessive concern with hidden evil powers (p. 2), and discusses the general r=F4le of popular culture and ufology in diffusing conspiracist themes through mainstream society. However, he does not address the susceptibility versus immunity of different individuals or groups, or how this might relate, for instance, to status inconsistency or resentment--matters well worth a detailed examination. Also, he refers several times to Richard Hofstadter's discussions of the "paranoid political style," but never quotes Hofstadter's observation that "there is a great difference between locating conspiracies in history and saying that history is, in effect, a conspiracy." A critique of superconspiracist theories of history, Hofstadter's remark allows for the occasional real occurrence of what Barkun calls "event conspiracies"--and the possibility that these might perhaps include actual "event conspiracies" surrounding the Kennedy assassination or the Roswell UFO crash. Pace Richard Posner, Philip Klass, or Karl Pflock, I suspect that neither of these can yet be totally discounted. Peace,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 The UFO Blog Coalition From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:52:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 08:52:09 -0400 Subject: The UFO Blog Coalition Bloggers unite! Join The UFO Blog Coalition (UBC). Absolutely free. I have set up a website and blog for UFO Bloggers. If you have a UFO related blog then you are welcome to join for free. I might have your blog already listed on the webpage at: http://ufo.blogs.terrygroff.com or http://ubc.terrygroff.com so check it out. As a member you will be invited to be a contributor to the blog itself. http://ufocoalition.blogspot.com This will allow you to make direct posts as if it were your own personal blog. This is not a forum or mail List. Membership is by invitation only. Visitors may make comments as in any other blog but they can't create new "threads". If you are listed on the webpage send me your email privately and I will send you an invitation to join the blog. If your blog is not listed then click the "Add/Update" link on the website and fill out the short form. If you don't have a blog you can create one free at: http://www.blogspot.com After you've created your blog go to the UBC homepage and submit it for membership. You may submit more than one blog as long as they are related to Ufology. This is for Blogs only. Do not submit website URLs. Your website may be listed along with your blog but not by itself. Each Sunday there will be a summary of all blog items posted to member's personal blogs during the last week. This way a visitor can go to one place and get a list of entries without having to visit each blog. Soon I will be adding RSS feeds so your blogs can be fed directly to websites or places like your 'My Yahoo!' page. Current members are: Paul Kimball - The Other Side Of Truth - http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/ Jim Hickman - Skywatch International - http://skywatch-international.blogspot.com/ Rich Reynolds - RRRGroup - http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/ Mac Tonnies - The Cydonian Imperative - http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com/ Brad Hirn - re: unidentified flying objects - http://ofsaucers.blogspot.com/ and myself - UFO Tools, MUFON DFW - http://ufotools.blogspot.com/, http://mufondfw.blogspot.com/ Did I mention this is all free. Join today. If you have any questions or would like to receive an invitation email me at: terrygroff.nul Terry Groff The UFO Blog Coalition http://ufo.blogs.terrygroff.com/ http://ufocoalition.blogspot.com Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON http://mufondfw.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:41:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:00:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>In its time the Hill case was an extraordinary revelation, as >>all of those who were there in the mid-1960s can testify, when >>reports of the abduction aspect emerged. There was a general >>feeling of shock and excitement. Other ufologists who lived and >>were active at the time will recall exactly what I mean. As I >>pointed out earlier, the sophisticated and knowledgeable >>ufologist (and astronomer) Walt Webb, who initially investigated >>the case, was so unprepared for it that he failed to recognize >>what he had when he conducted his inquiries. >I hope you patient and gentle Listfolk appreciate Jerry's rude >and impatient remarks as much as I do. If you don't want me to be "rude and impatient," maybe you ought not to be the same yourself. Here's a hint: Being called a "believer" always brings out the impatient and the crabby in me. And being subjected to save-it-for-the-rubes twaddle (see your characterization of the Hill case as ufology's "most important" below) also tends to test my basic good nature. And if you object to being called a pelicanist, show us - all other evidence to that effect notwithstanding - that you're not flying with that flock. Or, to mix metaphors, attending the same church; it certainly sounds as if you're singing out of that hymn book. >When Walter Webb investigated the case, the Hill's did not >mention missing time or an abduction. If you read Fuller's book >it is clear that the Hill's spoke to several ufologists about >their experience. Over the weeks their recollection of the >incident became more elaborate. It's "Hills," not "Hill's." The plural of a proper name does not require an apostrophe. See, in any event, my response to Peter Rogerson for particulars. I take it that you haven't read Webb's initial report to NICAP. >Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology it is >significant that the only major account of it is by a popular >journalist and author. Where are the detailed investigations and >reports by the likes of Keyhoe, Hynek or Clark? Huh? What evidence do you have, beyond your strange assertion above, that "the Hill case is the most important in ufology"? Did you just make this up because it sounds good? If you really believe this - which, by the way, I don't believe for a second - is there any reason that any of us should take you seriously about anything in this field? The investigator who took on the case was a most fortunate choice. There are few field investigators - maybe none, though there are some who are his equal- better than Walt Webb, and happily, he was there at the beginning. No one else can claim comparable expertise of what the Hills initially described. He interviewed them on October 21, 1961, just a month after the sighting, and already, as we have seen, they were alluding to peculiar anomalies of recall which Webb, who had no way of knowing what they could mean, dismissed for reasons that later, by his own admission, were inadequate. My own detailed analysis of the case appears in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 489-502. I cannot, however, claim to be an "investigator" of the case, though I knew Betty Hill in later years. I was in high school and halfway across the country when the Hill case was first reported in NICAP's periodical. I suppose I should be flattered that you think I may have contributed something, but since by nature of circumstance I could not have spoken with the Hills till years later, doesn't that contradict your complaint about people who did just that? >What has Arnold and pre-SF magazines got to do with the Hill >case? Their encounter was in 1961, there had already been a >decade of contactee literature, UFO reports in the newspapers >and many SF films about alien invasions and abduction. Was my point that obscure? As you are, of course, well aware, there is a small library of psychosocial writing linking reports of UFO phenomena, from the beginning, to science-fiction stories. The tired argument against the Hill case simply continues in that vein. Or is Watson being disingenuous here? Could there be a pelicanist ufology without it? Anybody who confuses contactee claims with abduction reports is paying very little attention to the contents - or, for that matter, anything about either phenomenon - of either. Having written extensively on both - I wrote an entire book on contactees, a subject that has long fascinated me, a few years ago; I have even written about them for the academic press - I can only lament the sheer laziness of an argument like this, which begs questions by the bagful. At the fringes, in some relatively few instances (mostly in John Mack's books), there may be some overlap, but overwhelmingly, abduction claims and contact claims are fundamentally unalike (to start with, in their strangeness content, evident to anybody who compares Adamski's or Van Tassel's books with Budd Hopkins's or Eddie Bullard's) and come from quite different places (and mostly quite different people). Any approach that conflates abductees and contactees is doomed from the start. The latter are much easier to explain in prosaic terms, but of course that may be the point of the conflation in the first place. Those looking for a succinct, intelligent, deeply informed examination of the difficulty of explaining the abduction phenomenon is referred, again, to psychologist Stuart Appelle's JUFOS survey which Watson not only hasn't read ("The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and Evidence," JUFOS 6, 1995/1996, pp. 29-79) but complains about my mentioning. What we are seeing is consistent with the pelicanist way of conflating science fiction with actual UFO reports. Worse, the contactee stuff isn't even _good_ science fiction. >Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned argument. As you have demonstrated. >On a more important and final point where is the objective, >empirical evidence for the Hill abduction? Yes, it's true that the Hills didn't produce an alien monkey wrench to prove their story, which of course does not solve the mystery or end the discussion. As four decades have demonstrated, it also is vexingly difficult to produce a conventional explanation which lays the matter to rest to the satisfaction of reasonable, informed observers (in other words, those who don't simply wave hands and mention contactees and science fiction and call people "believers" who don't immediately concede the wisdom of that approach). Yup, it all remains pretty murky, as I outline in my own examination of the case. As I have said more than once now, the Hill case has been neither proved nor disproved. Its significance is likely to become apparent only when the larger UFO question is resolved. For this suspension of judgment, by the way, Watson accused me of being a "believer," then disingenuously complained about my rejoinder to being so characterized. If a willingness to acknowledge uncertainty when it stares one in the face makes me a believer, however, I guess I will have to plead guilty. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Michio Kaku Talks Parallel Universes From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:24:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:24:52 -0400 Subject: Michio Kaku Talks Parallel Universes On Thursday 14 February 2002 BBC2 TV's Horizon Series aired 'Parallel Universes' - see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/paralleluni.shtml Subsequently, Professor Michio Kaku participated in an on-line chat session - see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/michio_kaku.shtml Readers will recall that Kaku closed the Jennings/ABC documentary recently..... ----- Michio Kaku Talks Parallel Universes Marco: How do you see the experimental confirmation on superstring theory? How long will it remain an unproven theory? Dr Michio Kaku: The direct proof of superstring theory may lie far in the future, However, indirect measurements may come fairly soon. Most science, in fact, is done with indirect experiments. For example, we have never visited the Sun but we know that is made out of Hydrogen because we have echoes from the Sun called sunlight. Similarly, we hope to find echoes from the tenth dimension. For example, in Geneva Switzerland, a large Hadron Collider will be turned on and we hope to find particles or super-particles which would be the next lowest vibration of the superstring. Furthermore, dark matter which makes up 90% of the Universe maybe made up of super-particles . Keith Marsden: Could I exist in a parallel universe and if so would my life take a different course? Dr Michio Kaku: There are many kinds of parallel universe. If we speak of quantum parallel universe then there may be resemblance to our Universe, except with one quantum difference. For example, if a cosmic ray went through Hitler's mother's womb and Hitler was never born, we could be one quantum event away from a parallel universe without World War 2. However, if the parallel universe is in another dimension then the laws of Physics themselves will change and atoms maybe unstable. And two kinds of matter exist - in those universes, Physics may look entirely different from our own. Josh Conway: How important is time to the M-Theory? Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory is defined in eleven dimensional space time with ten dimensions of space and one dimension of time. So M-Theory only has one time. However, there is some speculation that F-Theory may contain two dimensions of time and ten dimensions of space. So that there would be two times in a twelve dimensional universe. However, F-Theory is only held by a minority of physicists. Mike Garman: Your theory explains the start of our Universe, but where do the membranes come from that started it? Dr Michio Kaku: We believe that a multiverse of universes exist like bubbles floating in Nothing. Each bubble forms as a quantum fluctuation in Nothing. We feel that as this bubble forms its matter is dominated by strings and membranes which create musical notes which we see as particles of the universe. Ross McManus: Can dark matter and black holes be explained using the M-Theory? Dr Michio Kaku: Partially yes. In M-Theory, black hole solutions exist not only as a remnant of a dying star; they also exist as subatomic particles. So there is an unity between black holes and elementary particles. Also, the next vibration of the string includes a photino or particle which may make up most of the dark matter in the Universe. So dark matter maybe a higher musical note on the string. Pieter Verhoeven: What is meant by "Bubbles of Nothing"? Dr Michio Kaku: Boiling water is a purely quantum mechanical event. If water molecules were like billiard balls, water would never boil. Water boils and a tiny fluctuation occurs in water. Similarly, universes maybe created all the time, even as we speak, due to fluctuation in Nothing. In other words, universes maybe for free and Big Bangs, happen all the time like in boiling water. Peter Wentworth: What are the possibilities for a second Big Bang collision? Is it theoretically possible? Dr Michio Kaku: There is some speculation that gamma-ray bursters release the greatest amount s of energy since the Big Bang. There is some speculation that they maybe powerful enough to open a hole in our bubble Universe, so that our Universe buds into two universes, creating a baby universe which leaves the mother universe. However, until M-Theory becomes better understood we cannot prove that baby universes can be created from our Universe. John Reyes: Dr Kaku, how can one travel in time when time does not exist? And if it did, would you know which way to point your ship? Dr Michio Kaku: Time is like a river. It bends and flows around the Universe. Time may also have whirlpools and also may fork into two rivers. In this way, time travel might be possible. However, you have to have the Plank energy to create a time machine or the energy of a Black Hole. That is far beyond our technology. Dr: Do eleven dimensions mean there are other life forms of any kind? Dr Michio Kaku: We do not know if life-forms can exist in another dimension. However, atoms as we know them may not be stable in other dimensions. If we replace Newton's Inverse square law with an inverse tube law then solar systems and atoms fall apart. However, new forms of matter may exist in higher dimensions. Viva Wright: Is there the possibility that unconscious knowledge is transferred between universes? Dr Michio Kaku: At the present time, physicist believe that consciousness is confined to the human brain so telepathy between universes may not be possible. However, the problem of consciousness in a quantum-theory is still an unresolved problem. M-Theory is still a quantum-theory. Nick Rimmington Do you think this theory may explain why the rate of expansion of the universe is increasing? Dr Michio Kaku: Nobody knows how to calculate dark energy which is causing the Universe to accelerate. The best hope is M- Theory, but no-one knows how to solve M-Theory or the Big Bang. Maybe one of the viewers of this programme will be inspired to use M-Theory to explain the accelerating Universe. Parallel Universes Live ChatAdam Kirsch: If space is the 5th dimension what are the 6th or 7th? Dr Michio Kaku: If the fifth dimension vibrates, then ripples on the fifth dimension are visible as light. If the other dimensions vibrate, then the ripples are seen as the nuclear force, so the forces of the universe can be viewed as ripples in hyper-space. Christopher Sayer: Can a new membrane be created from two membranes colliding? Dr Michio Kaku: When two membranes or two strings collide, they create new membranes and new string. The diagrams which tell us how membranes and strings collide are like the Feynman diagrams that we see in quantum-theory. Our bodies are symphonies of vibrating strings and membranes. The Chemistry of our body is a consequence of the collision of these membranes and strings. Simon Lawrence: If the Universe is constantly expanding, when does this sign the end of our known Universe? Dr Michio Kaku: Our Universe will die in ice rather than fire. Our Universe eventually, trillions and trillions of years away from now, will reach near absolute zero making intelligent life impossible. Therefore, we may have to escape into hyper-space if we are to survive the death of the Universe. Tom Brown: In theory, is it possible to use the space between the Universes, leaving and re-entering, in order to travel many light years within our Universe, but without time having passed? Dr Michio Kaku: Einstein's equations give us a possibility to leap into hyper-space through a worm-hole to reach another universe. However, we don't have enough energy to open up such a hole and we don't know how stable such a hole might be. Brian Whaley: If time has only one dimension how can one deal with the issue of how "fast" time passes - and the difference between "time of day" and time as duration? Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory is only mathematically consistent with one dimension of time and ten dimensions of space. M-Theory is mathematically inconsistent for any other combination. Sam Jenkins: if our Universe is contained within a "bubble", what makes up the surface? Dr Michio Kaku: The surface of this bubble is the Universe itself. People often ask where did the Big Bang take place? The Big Bang did not take place on the surface of the bubble, it took place inside the bubble, i.e. in hyper-space. Phil Williams: What is hyper-space? Dr Michio Kaku: Hyper-space is space beyond three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Historically, scientists thought that hyper-space could not exist, now we believe that in hyper-space there is enough room to unify all fundamental forces. Four dimensions of space time are too small to unify the four fundamental forces Chris Norrie: Do you believe in infinity? Dr Michio Kaku: There are many types of infinity. The age of our universe may increase without limit because our universe is accelerating. In space, however, our universe may be finite in hyper-space but infinite in three dimension just like a bubble. So the farthest object in the universe would be the back of your head. Patrick Clarke: Are there infinite particles with the same x,y,z & time values as those in my body? Dr Michio Kaku: Well, in M-Theory there are an infinite number of particles. Each one represents a musical note on a string or membrane, so the atoms of our body are like those of a string. Chemistry is the melodies on these membranes and the universe is a symphony of vibrating membranes and string. William Joseph: Does M-theory say anything about the idea that the speed of light in our universe may be slowing down? Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory reproduces all of Einstein's theory and more. Therefore, the speed of light in a vacuum never changes. Tony Hall: Does string theory incorporate number theory in its structure? Dr Michio Kaku: String theory has gobbled up many branches of Mathematics which has astounded mathematicians. However, there is one branch of Mathematics that seems beyond the reach of string theory which is number theory. For example, we do not find Fermat's last theorem in string theory. Jean: Could black holes be routes from our Universe to the other parallel universes? Could than be why nothing comes out of them? Dr Michio Kaku: Yes, there is a theory that says that universes may have children, via a budding process in which a universe splits into two smaller universes. However this is just a theory, and we will have to wait until M-Theory is further developed to decide whether universes can have children. Parallel Universes Live ChatPatrick Clarke: Is the Big Bang where all eleven dimensions have a value of zero? Dr Michio Kaku: In one solution of M-Theory, our Universe is a four-dimensional ball floating in eleven dimensions. In the other seven dimensions, there could be other bubbles floating. One theory says that the nearest bubble to our Universe maybe one millimetre away from us. This theory will be tested in Geneva in a few more years. Nigel: Does the rate of vibration of membranes offer a possible connection between them? Dr Michio Kaku: Large membranes may resemble universes like our own floating in eleven dimensional hyper-space. However, tiny membranes can be viewed as subatomic particles whose vibration and interaction give us the laws of Chemistry. Therefore M- Theory unifies subatomic particles and universes. Trici Shaw: What is the "F" from F-Theory? Dr Michio Kaku: F for F-Theory stands for Father. M for M-Theory may stand for Mother, Mystery or Membrane. Alan Trevitt: If universes are parallel to each other, why does gravity run in only one direction i.e., downwards? Dr Michio Kaku: Gravity is caused by the working of space time. Therefore, if we have two bubbles close to each other they will distort the space time surrounding them and feel each others gravity. Therefore, dark matter may be the presence of a neighbouring universe that we cannot see. Alex Greybrook: How was hyper space discovered? Dr Michio Kaku: The Greeks tried to prove 2000 years ago that hyper-space was impossible. However, Vernhard Riemann proved in the 1870s that hyper-space was possible. Then Kaluza in 1921 showed that universes may exist in hyper-space. Richie Lunt: Although atoms are stable in our dimension would this be this case in others? Dr Michio Kaku: Atoms in other dimensions may be unstable because the inverse square law does not hold. However, two forms of stable matter may exist in hyper universes, which are not based on atoms. But, physicists do not know any more than this. Funky Monkey: Why are the other parallel universe's membranes different shapes. Shouldn't they be the same? Does what happens on the inside effects the universe's physical shape? Dr Michio Kaku: Membranes can come in many sizes and many shapes. For example, a zerobrane is a particle, a onebrane is a string, a twobrane may be a membrane and a threebrane maybe a universe. Zhou Fang: M-Theory may be shown to be mathematically possible, but would we ever be able to prove that it is actually the case? Dr Michio Kaku: Experimentally, we hope to find super particles in the next few years with our atom-smashers. However, I believe that if we are smart enough we could solve the theory and then derive all the laws of Chemistry and Physics. That to me would be a proof that M-Theory is correct. So, those experiments are not really necessary. Theory is enough. Ross Campbell: Where did the energy required to produce membranes in the first instance come from? Dr Michio Kaku: The amount of energy necessary to create a bubbled universe is zero. Matter has positive energy, but gravity has negative energy. The sum of the two might be zero. This means that bubbled universes can be created all the time. So the Universe is for free. Kevin Wan: If the fabric of the Universe is being stretched, does this also mean that the membrane is also being stretched? If so, when will the stretching cease? Dr Michio Kaku: In one theory, our Universe is a membrane. We live on the skin of this membrane which is constantly expanding because of dark energy. We think this expansion is accelerating and may go on for ever without limit. Pimmy: Have any major "flaws" or "gaps" been found in M-theory so far which makes it unable to explain something? Dr Michio Kaku: So far, M-Theory has withstood every mathematical challenge. In the past, previous attempts at a theory of everything could be shown to be mathematically inconsistent. M-Theory is the only theory which seems to be mathematically consistent. However, there are many solutions to M-Theory, one of which may be our Universe. No-one has found that one solution yet. Adrian: I've heard that in other universes time might flow backwards! Is this true? Dr Michio Kaku: Not long ago, Stephen Hawking thought that time may go backwards. If the Universe pulsated then during the contraction he thought that time might run backward. However, he has since admitted that he was wrong. Therefore, most physicists do not believe that time will reverse itself in our Universe. If there are time machines, you might be able to reverse time in a small area, but not for the entire Universe. Trekkie: Is there a possibility of a 12th dimension? Dr Michio Kaku: In F-Theory the physicists at Harvard University have proposed a universe with two-times, so that you would have to have two watches on your wrist to tell you what time it is. However, most physicists today do not take F-Theory seriously although it seems compatible with M-Theory. This is still a mystery. Rob Wood: How does M-theory explain quantum entanglement - is it via the collapsed dimensions? Dr Michio Kaku: Quantum entanglement is a problem for all quantum theories including M-Theory. Quantum entanglement says that the Universe is non-local and that information may travel faster than light,. However, no useful information can be sent faster than light by means of quantum entanglement so there are no paradoxes in time. Bernard Hunt: Is time just the human awareness; a thing that isn't really a dimension? Dr Michio Kaku: Space time is an arena on which matter can exist. Therefore, time is a co-ordinate that measures the passing or evolution of an object. Some people have said that time does not exist, which confuses the perception of time with time as a co-ordinate on this arena. Max Guglia: Apart from empirical speculation, what could be the benefits for humanity of proving the M-Theory? Dr Michio Kaku: In the short term, nothing. But when Newton worked out the Force of Gravity, he helped to set into motion the industrial revolution. When Faraday worked out electricity and magnetism he set into motion the electric age. When Einstein wrote down E=MC2 he unleashed the nuclear age. Now, we are on the verge of a theory of all forces which may, one day, determine the fate of the human species. Centuries from now, M- Theory, I feel, may eventually determine the destiny of all intelligent life in the Universe. Horizon Host: Here's our special guest with a final word: Dr Michio Kaku: I am proud to be part of this BBC documentary, on the cutting edge of my field - M-Theory. It is absolutely essential that scientists speak to the public about the exciting and revolutionary developments rocking the foundations of modern Physics. Hopefully, one of you viewers will be inspired by this programme to become a physicist, who will eventually complete the M-Theory and answer questions like: 'Is time travel possible?' 'Can we journey to another dimension?' and 'What
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Universe Has Many Alternative Histories Which Is From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:37:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:37:51 -0400 Subject: Universe Has Many Alternative Histories Which Is Source: The Independant - London, UK http://comment.independent.co.uk/podium/story.jsp?story=629139 April 15, 2005 'The Universe Has Many Alternative Histories, But Which Is Real?' Stephen Hawking From a speech by the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University, to the Prince of Asturias Foundation in Oviedo, Spain. I am here to talk about Running History Backwards. We think of history as a progression forward in time. One event causes another, and so on. The principle of scientific determinism was formulated by the French scientist the Marquis de Laplace in the early 19th century. Given a knowledge of the state of the universe at one time, the laws of science uniquely predict its future evolution. Scientific determinism also works backwards. Given the state of the universe at one time, there is a unique previous history that led to it. So why don't we tell history backwards? The reason is that, because we usually don't have a complete knowledge of the state of a system, we are more likely to be able to predict its future evolution than its history. The bottom-up approach to cosmology, in which one runs the history of the universe forward in time, would be appropriate if one knew that the universe was set going in a particular way in the past. However, in the absence of such knowledge, it is better to work from the top down, by tracing backwards from the final state the histories that contribute to the sum over histories. This means that the histories of the universe depend on what is being measured, contrary to the usual idea that the universe has an objective, observer-independent history. What does it mean to say that the universe has many alternative histories? Which is the real history of the universe? To answer such profound philosophical questions, I think one must adopt the positivist approach of Karl Popper and others. in this, a theory is just a mathematical model to describe the observations. It has no claim to reality, whatever that may be. Two very different models may describe the same observations. Both theories are equally valid, and neither can be said to be more real than the other. The results are disappointing for those who hoped that the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Ad Submission To Robins AFB Newspaper From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:41:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:51:44 -0400 Subject: Ad Submission To Robins AFB Newspaper To: webmaster.nul To: Commander Robins Air Force Base, Georgia ATTN: Public Affairs Officer Robins Air Force Base, GA 31098 From: Larry W. Bryant 3518 Martha Custis Drive Alexandria, VA 22302 DATE: May 2, 2005 Please have the text of the following classified ad undergo your standard prepublication review/clearance prior to my submitting it direct to the printer of your base newspaper, the "Robins Rev-up": BLOW THE WHISTLE ON THE NEO-UFO WHISTLEBLOWERS! Two members of a reinvigorated crop of reputed UFO-coverup whistleblowers - former USAF intelligence officer Robert M. Collins and former USAF-OSI agent Richard C. Doty - have teamed up to produce a brand-new book, titled "Exempt from Disclosure: The Disturbing Case About the UFO Coverup" http://www.ufoconspiracy.com Does the book constitute a confirmable case of insider knowledge of what our government knows (and when it knew it) about UFO reality? Or does its foray into the bowels of the world's Deepest Secret merely regurgitate a form of official disinformation -- "disUFOmation" - made (in)famous back in the 1980's via the Kirtland AFB's Bennewitz Affair? If you (or someone you know) reliably can corroborate or discount the Collins-Doty revelations, please contact me at: Larry W. Bryant, 3518 Martha Custis Drive, Alexandria, VA 22302; e-mail:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Secrecy News - 05/02/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:04:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:02:46 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News - 05/02/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 42 May 2, 2005 ** CONTROLS ON "DEEMED EXPORTS" MAY THREATEN RESEARCH ** LEGAL RESTRAINTS ON RENDITION OF PRISONERS (CRS) ** NANOTECH FOR THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY ** ARMY FIELD MANUAL ON CIVIL DISTURBANCE OPERATIONS ** SENATORS QUESTION FISA CLASSIFICATION POLICY CONTROLS ON "DEEMED EXPORTS" MAY THREATEN RESEARCH Scientists in academia and elsewhere are expressing alarm that government actions to expand controls on so-called "deemed exports" could have the unintended consequence of stifling basic research. A "deemed export" occurs when a foreign national working in the United States gains access to technology - or information - that is export controlled. As noted by the Department of Commerce Inspector General last year, "Export controls of technical data apply to a wide variety of information, including technology related to the design, development, and use of certain products such as computers, semiconductors, integrated circuits, lasers, and sensors." Strict enforcement of controls on such information would require imposing severe, possibly unworkable limits on interactions with foreign scientists and with foreign students in the U.S. "Depending on how you parse the requirements," one distinguished academic scientist said yesterday, "their impact would range from serious to disastrous." If controls on access to laboratory equipment are enforced by surveillance and monitoring systems, another eminent scientist said, "then the notion of an open university disappears at that point." The latest concerns were triggered by a notice from the Department of Commerce announcing a proposal to revise and "clarify" requirements on deemed exports. Comments on the proposal are invited through May 27. See the March 28 Federal Register notice here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/03/fr032805.html The National Academy of Sciences will host a workshop on Friday, May 6 to consider the implications of the emerging policy, and possible alternatives. For more information, see the web site of the Roundtable on Scientific Communication and National Security: http://www7.nationalacademies.org/rscans/ From a different perspective, the U.S. Government's National Counterintelligence Executive (NCIX) recently expressed its own concern that "Foreign access to state-of-the-art technology can only rise as an increasing share of Doctorates awarded by US universities in the fields of science and engineering go to foreign-born researchers." The NCIX report cited National Science Foundation data that 28 percent of US doctorates in science and technology went to non- US citizens in 1995, rising to 38 percent in 2003. See the 2004 Annual Report to Congress on Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage, National Counterintelligence Executive, April 2005 (1.7 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/2004.pdf Pressure to curtail foreign national participation in U.S. scientific activity has also been driven by some members of Congress, who see only threats and no benefits to international scientific cooperation. "I would suggest the standard we should use is that Chinese students are free to come here as long as they're studying poetry and [free] enterprise, and not high-tech systems that could have dual use," said Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) at an April 14 House hearing. LEGAL RESTRAINTS ON RENDITION OF PRISONERS (CRS) The laws governing "rendition" or transfer of a prisoner from one country to another for purposes of interrogation are considered in a new report from the Congressional Research Service. "Although the particularities regarding the usage of extraordinary renditions and the legal authority behind such renditions is not publically available, various U.S. officials have acknowledged the practice's existence." "Recently, there has been some controversy as to the usage of renditions by the United States, particularly with regard to the alleged transfer of suspected terrorists to countries known to employ harsh interrogation techniques that may rise to the level of torture, purportedly with the knowledge or acquiescence of the United States." "This report discusses relevant international and domestic law restricting the transfer of persons to foreign states for the purpose of torture." See "Renditions: Constraints Imposed by Laws on Torture," Congressional Research Service, April 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32890.pdf NANOTECH FOR THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY Nanoscale devices "that take advantage of quantum and other phenomena offer exciting possibilities for future [Intelligence Community] applications," according to a recent report from the National Academy of Sciences. Areas of potential interest include quantum computing and communication, molecular electronics, and intelligent sensor networks. However, some proposed capabilities are "highly speculative or specious," the Academy study said. The Intelligence Community should develop in-house expertise to help it "avoid investing in 'science fiction' areas such as nonbiological exponential manufacturing systems (assemblers)." A three-page unclassified summary of the 2005 report on "Nanotechnology for the Intelligence Community" may be found here: http://www.nap.edu/catalog/11276.html ARMY FIELD MANUAL ON CIVIL DISTURBANCE OPERATIONS A new U.S. Army field manual articulates military doctrine for confronting civil unrest abroad and at home. "In addition to covering civil unrest doctrine for OCONUS [outside continental United States] operations, [the new manual] addresses domestic unrest and the military role in providing assistance to civil authorities requesting it for civil disturbance operations." See Field Manual (FM) 3-19.15, "Civil Disturbance Operations," 18 April 2005 (256 pages, 5.6 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-15.pdf The U.S. Army has also newly updated its regulations on "Military Justice." See AR 27-10, 27 April 2005 (171 pages, 1.0 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar27-10.pdf SENATORS QUESTION FISA CLASSIFICATION POLICY The national security classification system is susceptible to political abuse not only through needless classification of information but also through tactical or selective declassification. Last year, three Senators asked the Justice Department to declassify certain aggregate information about how the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) was being used, including the number of times that business records had been accessed pursuant to a FISA Court order. This past March, the Justice Department denied their request, explaining that such information had to remain classified "in the interest of national security." But then, two weeks later, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales disclosed the very same information in open testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee. "We appreciate the declassification of this information," wrote Democratic Senators Russell D. Feingold, Richard J. Durbin, and Patrick Leahy. "However, we were disappointed that the Department chose to declassify this information at a time that suited its political ends, rather than in response to our oversight letter, which we sent to Attorney General Ashcroft more than six months ago." The three Senators went on to reiterate their request for further declassification of FISA information. See a copy of their April 29 letter here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s042905.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:05:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:04:04 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:02:46 -0700 >Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >Introducing his theme, and eerily setting the tone for the >entire conference, Balducci flatly declared that >"extraterrestrials will be more inclined to good" than are >humans. Warming up, he told his audience: "It's not possible >that beings more evil than us can exist in other worlds... we >are the worst of all!" >Balducci further explained that God created extraterrestrials >between humanity and the the angels. In other words, ETs are by >nature spiritually superior to humans. >These are outrageous and completely unfounded statements, yet >because they are uttered by a religious authority may be taken >by some as gospel. >While it is unsurprising that Balducci preaches Church doctrine >that humanity is a "fallen" species and thus in need of the >salvation of Christ, his speculations about the moral status of >extraterrestrials are completely without basis in Catholic >theology, witness testimony, or rational discourse. >Others have noted that Balducci routinely ignores evidence that >extraterrestrials are as capable as humans of "sin" or moral >failure. For instance, Gordon Creighton wrote of Balducci: >"There is not a single word in anything that he has ever said or >written to indicate any knowledge whatsoever of such matters as >alien rape; crossbreeding; hybridization; removal of sperm and >ova; implants, or the widespread harassment of humans by UFO >entities, widespread mutilations of terrestrial animals, and >ghastly human mutilations too." >While it might be seen as useful for the exopolitical disclosure >movement to have the enthusiastic endorsement of a Vatican >prelate, Bassett would do well to distance himself from >irrational insistence on the God-given spiritual/moral >superiority of extraterrestrials. I normally ignore this X-Conference stuff, but you have really hit the nail on the head with this one. As I have wrote before about the hostility of aliens, it is obvious that many of the UFO/alien reports show evil intent. If aliens don't look at it as evil because of their culture, fine. But we can still examine it from our culture and label it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:24:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:07:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:50:15 +0100 >>Subject: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>I guess we know why you're a pelicanist, and not a detective, >Peter. Thank God; your capacity for actual harm to actual human >beings is thereby considerably reduced. Meaningless drivel >You're confusing - conveniently, I must say, and in the usual >have- it-both-ways fashion of the pelicanist - Webb's dismissal >of the significance of Barney Hill's confused testimony with the >significance of what Hill seems to have been trying to say, >which was that he had memories a very close encounter with >aliens inconsistent both with his conscious memories and with >the consciously recalled time line. The significance of Webb's >dismissal speaks right to the point: that pelicanist doctrine >notwithstanding, ufologists and witnesses had no concept of >missing time in 1961. The idea of missing time came with suggests from Hohmann and Jackson in 1962, so it wasn't there in 1961 which is what I said. >In 1965, looking back on his 1961 investigation, Webb - by the >way, one of the finest field investigators American ufology has >ever produced - wrote, "When I met the Hills after their >experience in the White Mountains, Barney appeared to be deeply >concerned by the 'leader' in the UFO (first encountered) and by >his failure to recall events immediately after watching this >figure. Both witnesses were perplexed that they had no >conscious recollection of events between the odd beeping sounds >nor of the route they traveled in that interval." Yes by 1965 the idea of missing time had been introduced, by, as I said before, other ufologists >Now, folks, who you gonna believe: a bright, accomplished >investigator who actually spoke with the Hills after their >initial 1961 report - or Peter Rogerson? Who is the authority >here? Yes, those are rhetorical questions. That's the same investigator you were saying just didn't get it about the missing time isn't it. >>It's hard to remember back damn near 40 years, but I don't >>recall as a teenage ufo buff finding this story so unprecedented >>even though I didn't encounter the AVB case till 1967. The >>literature around at the time prepared us for it. Far from being >>treated as a wild story heading for the wpb, the Hill story got >>a respectful hearing from the start, even from my ever skeptical >>colleague John Harney. >Your memory is pretty dismal, Peter, though it does serve, if not very >compellingly, your argument, such as it is. We may assume that no >memory that failed to do so would ever be permitted to rise to the >surface of Rogersonian consciousness. If you are accusing me of lying please come out and say so. >In reality, the Hill abduction story was a sensation in the >ufology of the period, which had no known precedent for it. The >reception, far from being "respectful," was mixed. The largest >American organization of the time, NICAP, which had been >responsible for the initial investigation of what then seemed a >fairly typical CE3, rejected the abduction aspect outright as "A >Dream via Hypnosis" (actual title of brief NICAP kiss-off in >U.F.O. Investigator, August/September 1966, p. 8). Other >ufologists - those who already were interested in CE3s (that >didn't include everybody in early ufology, as historians of the >subject are aware) - were more open-minded, but reservations >about the efficacy of hypnosis remained a recurring theme in >treatments of the abduction aspect. Webb himself concluded that >the material that emerged under hypnosis explained aspects of >the testimony that otherwise had made no sense to him. Again, >on this subject, who you gonna believe? The guy who was >actually there, or Peter Rogerson? Again, rhetorical questions. >The rest of you who may be interested in what pre-Hill >anomalistics and ufology were _actually_ like may wish to read >my paper "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of >the UFO Abduction Phenomenon." It's in The Anomalist 8 (Spring >2000): 11-31. The issue can be ordered from >http://www.anomalist.com/ Jerry, every time you use the word pelicanist, Listfolk should assume you have lost the argument and have nothing better than schoolyard abuse to come up with. The fact that most British ufologists refuse to acknowledge your desire to be the Pope of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:19:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:02:32 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>Balloons unless and until >>>evidence emerges to the contrary. >>It's a no-brainer: they can't have been balloons. The key reason >>for this you didn't mention, but others have. The objects >>remained in the same relative positions with respect to each >>other - hundreds of them, for as long as the video showed them, >>which was over many seconds. This was more than enough time to >>disclose the influence of turbulence had these been balloons. >Turbulence aside, you make the assumption the balloons >are each separate from the other. It should be assumed they >are connected via strings. >Regarding turbulence, it is unknown what the atmosphere >characteristics were at that location. Perhaps the turbulent >layer was higher than you think or quiescent in that location >or with a granularity that would not affect the balloons as >you propose. >With wind shear, ditto. But add strings. >>Therefore, not balloons. >No, the burden is on the person bringing the video to provide >more data. But if you want to gumshoe it, go ahead. ... To the string balloonists, Kyle & James, You are avoiding all details of such a proposed hoax. The daytime atmosphere is always turbulent, from the ground up to many hundreds of feet. Strings between balloons, such as each balloon being connected to four neighboring balloons, still leaves some degrees of freedom in which the turbulence will cause the hypothesized balloons in such a setup to vary in relative position and orientation as viewed from the camera. (a) The periphery of the balloons would quickly shrink in, here and there, causing many of the hypothesized strings to go slack. Variations in balloons' relative positions due to turbulence and wind shear would then quickly become apparent. (b) Besides (a), the whole array would be free to tilt away from the plane in which it was set up. The turbulence would cause its upper portion here and there to tilt somewhat towards or away from the camera relative to the lower portion, and similarly cause the left-hand portion to veer towards or away from the camera relative to the right-hand portion. Bear in mind that turbulence is three-dimensional and occurs simultaneously on a very wide range of scales. (c) Besides (a) and (b), the whole array would be subject to a rotary motion, driven by the upper portion being subject to a stronger mean wind speed than the lower portion. Then consider the problem of setting up such a hypothesized array. Some 400 balloons to inflate and temporarily anchor down on some large flat area, and then some 1600 strings of varying lengths to tie between them. How long would it take how many people to do this? Could they step between the balloons without getting some of the strings tangled up? I should think you'd want the balloons in the upper edge of the array to have enough lift to hoist them all, with some fellow hoaxers walking along underneath and holding onto strings hanging down from the lower edge, to establish a nearly constant initial height for the array. Could all this activity be kept secret? The odds are against it. Once the hypothesized array is launched, then objections (a), (b) and (c) take over. It's up to you string-balloonists to try to demonstrate that such a feat could be accomplished, despite the ever turbulent atmosphere & wind shear, using your own video-camera taping of length one minute or more, to prove you can do it. You are allowed only one such attempt, since any practice attempts would too easily give away the fact it was all a hoax. You are the ones saying it was balloons with strings. It's up to you to prove it or cede defeat. I predict, from previous experience with debunkers, that no such
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:59:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:30:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Jamieson I noticed that Stephen Bassett suggests we continue to debate the moral character, etc. of alleged aliens present on earth (and reportedly interacting with us in various ways). Is their a reliable, and sufficient, body of data to really carry on a useful debate? One of the things that irritated the hell out of me, during the dying days of Operation Right To Know (I was a co-founder), was the amount of space taken up in our Right To Know Forum (in the last few issues) over this very debate. My irritation probably was based on the feeling that I simply didn't know enough (or, I didn't assume that what others thought that they "knew" was actually so). Therefore, spending energy on that question seemed a bit premature... and a waste of time. I suspect that the abduction case loads of some researchers present something of a useful picture of what might be going on. (Especially if there's some physical evidence in the mix.) These case loads certainly don't suggest loving space brothers! (Well, okay, there's a form of "loving" going on in these cases, but not the type of cosmic love you hear being commonly channeled by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Arturo Robles Gil From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:19:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:32:09 -0400 Subject: Arturo Robles Gil Dear Errol and Fellow Listers: I just wanted to see what this video of "fleets of UFOs" taken by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil looked like so I plugged his name in a Google search and this is what came up: (For English translations, copy/paste the URL in Google and click on "translate this page".) 1. This link will take you to an investigation of an alleged UFO photographed by Arturo Robles Gil and supported by Jaime Maussan: http://www.ufo.com.mx/rgil.html 2. Here is a side-by-side comparison of the image created by Pascal Lopresti by photographing a similar device to that which appears in Arturo Robles Gil's photographs which he claimed was a UFO: http://www.ufo.com.mx/comparacion.jpg 2. On this page, Mr. Lopresti appears to have investigated several of Arturo Robles Gil's images and found them to be highly questionable: http://www.ufo.com.mx/investigacion.html 3. Not sure if this investigation of fraud was one of Mr. Gil's videos but it came up in association with the Google search of his name: http://mx.geocities.com/airsmither/us/mexico.htm 4. This is a good web site to view some more of Mr. Arturo Robles Gil's other work: http://groups.msn.com/cobachin/videosdeovnis.msnw 5. And to view more of Arturo Robles Gil's videos and photographs, try this link: http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ 6. I found more of Mr. Arturo Robles Gil's photographs at this site (Google translates the title of this post as "SWINDLE SWINDLE ARTHUR ROBLES GIL, Mexico"): http://www.forumfree.net/?t=3276676 7. At this site, you can't get the images but there is more information about Mr. Gil's work: http://www.ovnistv.tv/bolidos.htm 8. Here is just one of Mr. Arturo Robles Gil's many sightings and information about his October 27, 2004 sighting, video and photo's of a UFO described by Jaime Maussan as, ""It's as though it were an organic being with several tentacles, and some of these tentacles were putting forth spheres." http://www.ufoevidence.org/news/article191.htm 9. This link has some WMV's of Arturo Robles Gil's August, 2003 video of "fleets of UFOs" over Mexico: http://www.ufoplaza.nl/~ganzegal/nieuwsbrief/ufo09-03.htm 10. And yet another article about Mr. Arthur Robles Gil's photographs. (Don't forget to copy-paste the entire URL - too long.): http://foro.ovnis.com.mx/viewtopic.php?t=548&sid=b09c4cb598a2f9dd87011ab6ca8246d c While gathering videos and photographs of IFO's for the IFO Database, I spent many hours observing flocks of birds in flight and many balloons flying overhead. From my personal experience, Mr. Arturo Robles Gil's videos of "fleets of UFOs" look almost exactly like the balloons and birds in flight that I have observed many times. My first inclination was to run to the store and buy dozens of white balloons to video tape but I had the sense to first look up regulations about "balloon releases" in the US. Many states have strict laws about balloon releases due to the impact on the environment and wildlife.Perhaps someone, somewhere has video taped large balloon releases and can share these images with us for comparison purposes? In just a cursory observation of Mr. Gil's videos, I could not help but wonder if he suffers from Parkinson's disease or some other malady that prevents him from holding a video camera steady. Shaky videos are also another clue the images are not as they seem and someone may be trying to disguise the true nature of the objects in question by repeatedly zooming in and out and moving the camera back and forth in an erratic motion. It seems to me that if someone has been caught hoaxing an alleged photograph of a UFO, claims to have dozens of UFO sightings always with opportunities to video tape and photograph UFOs and fleets of them, one should weigh the evidence very carefully before jumping to conclusions that the images are of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:58:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:33:52 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:44:21 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear Hi, Gildas, >>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally >ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which >they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so. >That's a really good point. But there is more to say about SF >authors and readers. I noticed since a long time that most of >them strongly dislike UFOs, with a few exceptions. I think they >see them as a kind of threat, or unloyal competion to the "noble >art" of science-fiction. However, things may be changing now, >with some SF production coming closer to the UFO lore, like the >series "Taken". What I find interesting to watch is signs a >possible change of mind of SF readers and film buffs regarding >UFOs. Where science fiction is concerned, I think of the wry observation, "The golden age of science fiction was when you were 13." When I was 13 - a long, long time ago, sigh - I was intensely in love with the genre and am amazed at how much I recall of SF up to the mid-1960s, when I stopped reading it forever. These days I read John Updike, not John Wyndham, but I can still discuss early SF fairly intelligently and recall it fondly without ever being tempted to revisit it. For all that it did to my young, impressionable mind, however, it never led me to vivid hallucinations which I mistook for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? - From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:08:48 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:35:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:16:29 -0400 >Subject: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? >I've been reviewing some video footage taken during various >forms of electronic attacks against one of our gang >stalking/electronic harassment targets, by her, of herself >during these attacks. She uses a Sony Night Shot camera to >record her physical state and surroundings during the night, so >she doesn't have to switch on the normal light. >I am not sure if I'm being hypnotically caused to see this, but >during close-ups of her face using the camcorder's infrared >illuminator, her eyes appear to me to have vertical slit-like >pupils instead of the customary round type. Because deception, >mind games and sabotage in transit are all part of what happens >in our lives routinely, I don't accept what I'm seeing as >necessarily 'for real'. >The person involved is of First Nations (Canada) or American >Indian (United States) origin, and her eyes in daylight are so >dark as to appear to be solid black discs. >The reason I'm asking is that I recall some years ago hearing of >one abduction report in which the abductee remembers an >encounter with humanoid aliens, with blond hair and blue eyes. >One difference there was that vertical slit pupils were reported >(allegedly, this was not first hand.) >Does anyone on this list know if any of the more trustworthy >abduction reports include such a description? Hi Eleanor, I can't comment about other abduction reports but off the top of my head I've received 2 reports of vertical slit pupils from people over the years. One was from a Maori woman who I interviewed regarding possible abduction experiences. She reported walking sitting on a seat in New Farm Park, Brisbane (Australia) with a friend and saw an odd male & female couple with a young child. They had a strange demeanor and wore clothes that seemed suited to a different era. The child looked like a normal 5/6 year old except he had vertical slit pupils like a cat. She was drawn to look at them because they just "didn't seem right" and as they walked past her the child turned around, seemed to look right through her, blinked and that's when she saw the odd pupils. A friend was with her at the time and they both reported seeing the same thing. The other report was from a woman working in a shopping centre in Brisbane. Again, it involved a strange looking woman dressed in clothes that didn't match our current times but were described as "more like what my grandmother would wear" and this woman was in her 50's. The strange woman seemed to "float" over to her and asked her a question but she couldn't remember what she was asked. Instead she felt drawn by the eyes of the other woman which had vertical slitted pupils. She thought to herself "what planet do you come from?" and the other woman immediately moved off.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: Exocranial Studies - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:12:31 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:37:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Exocranial Studies - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:49:48 -1000 >Subject: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars >I hope you excuse me for promoting my forthcoming summer >courses in exopolitics that start in the week of May 16. I think they >are samples of the kinds of courses one will eventually >encounter in graduate University programs once there is open >disclosure of the ET presence. <snip> >disclosure lecture I had organized with Dr Steven Greer at <snip> >whereby my eight year affiliation with American University was >eventually not renewed for my temerity in having the Washington >Post conduct an interview with me of my research into >allegations of Eisenhower having met with a delegation of >extraterrestrials in February 20, 1954. <snip> > I think it very plausible that visiting ETs would have >known of the forthcoming test and arranged for a diplomatic >meeting with President Eisenhower to ask for an abandonment of >thermonuclear weapons testing. >I think I have already made the case for why exopolitics >research is valid despite the lack of hard evidence <snip> > the data supporting the existence of 'official' >galactic diplomacy with extraterrestrials is overwhelming in my >view. <snip> >truth of the secret diplomacy conducted by the "shadow >government" (or the "secret government within the government" <snip> >I think that the exclusive focus on finding >incontrovertible proof of the extraterrestrial presence no >longer serves the purpose it once did and we now need to take >action to directly mitigate the egregious effects of the current >diplomatic agreements between the 'shadow government' and some >extraterrestrial races. <snip> >the various issues concerning exopolitics and 'galactic >diplomacy'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: Barkun's 'A Culture of Conspiracy - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:29:31 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Barkun's 'A Culture of Conspiracy - Sparks >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:27:38 -0700 >Subject: Michael Barkun's 'A Culture of Conspiracy' >From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:21:22 -0700 >Subj: [forteana] Michael Barkun's A Culture of Conspiracy: > Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America <snip> >Conspiracy theories, Barkun observes, "purport to be empirically >relevant;" "testable by the accumulation of evidence about the >observable world." Their proponents "often engage in elaborate >presentations of evidence in order to substantiate their >claims." Thus, "conspiracist literature often mimics the >apparatus of source citation and evidence presentation found in >conventional scholarship" Even as "stigmatization is employed as >a virtual guarantee of truth," the "literature of stigmatized >knowledge enthusiastically mimics mainstream scholarship" by >"appropriating the apparatus of elaborate citations and >bibliographies." It shows "a fondness for reciprocal citation, >in which authors obligingly cite one another," so that "the same >sources are repeated over and over," producing "a kind of >pseudoconfirmation" where "if a source is cited many times, it >must be true" (A Culture of Conspiracy, pp. 6-7, 28). . This sounds like Salla, Greer, and Bassett, who mutually cite each other in elaborate displays of "pseudo-confirmation" as they sound their siren calls for us to leap off the cliff in a mass suicide of the critical intellect. <snip> >Indeed, Barkun found, "conspiracy theorists insist on being >judged by the very canons of proof that are used in the world >they despise and distrust, the world of academia and the >intelligentsia." For "all its claims to populism," conspiracy >theory "yearns to be admitted to the precincts where it imagines >the conspirators themselves dwell" [A Culture of Conspiracy, p. >29] <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 3 Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:01:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:42:00 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:04:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:15:38 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:06:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>>"4. On March 7, 1971, lunar instruments placed by the astronauts >>>recorded a vapor cloud of water passing across the surface of >>>the moon. The cloud lasted 14 hours and covered an area of about >>>100 square miles." >>>"It is concluded that during most of the event the observed >>>water vapor ions were accelerated by the negative lunar surface >>>electric potential and, secondly, that this event was probably >>>the result of mission associated water vapor, either from the LM >>>ascent and descent stage rockets or from residual water in the >>>descent stage tanks." >>>So much for the myth of the March 7, 1971 event! >>Perhaps the "myth" is what's in the second paper. >Assume that given 20 years of time in the development of lunar >science between the two papers that there would be ENHANCED >understanding rather than a fall into the Dark Ages of selective >memory? Science marches ever forward, eh? >In addition to these papers are many papers and analyses >regarding the electric field around the Moon. This took alot of >time to understand, but resulted in a more throrough analysis of >the second paper. Indeed, why bother even writing a second paper >if the analyses were correct the first time. I assume it is your >opinion that they had to hide the evidence now and prove wrong >the previous paper to satisfy some desire to keep the public in >the dark. You should read a little more carefully before you reply all in a huff. I never said anything about keeping the public in the dark. I was speculating more along the lines of peer pressure, group think, and herd mentality among planetary scientists, who seem to have an aversion to the notion of liquid water not only on the Moon, but on Mars as well. Despite the fact that the water phase diagram says otherwise, there've been repeated assertions made over the years by scientists that liquid water cannot exist on Mars. It can and, I suspect, probably does intermittently at certain elevations, latitudes, and seasons. But once unqualified pronouncments are repeated frequently enough in the mass media by sufficiently important scientists, it seems that they just become accepted as fact without much dispute by scientists as a group. >Well, alot of analysis must have gone on from the January to >December time period because he states that" if we assume >equivalent ion accelerating conditions for the two events and if >the water vapor source was no closer than 27 km, we conclude >that at least 500 kg of water was involved in the March 7 >event." Also, "if an emission rate of 1 kg/sec of H2) was >maintained on March 7 for a period of 14 hr, a total water >emission of the order of 10,000kg is implied." I haven't seen the paper you're referring to, but it's probably because in the first paper they used a water release rate of 5 kg/sec for the Apollo 14 lander, but that was actually a total exhaust gas rate. Water was about 20% of emissions, which would be about 1 kg/sec. But 14 hours at 1 kg/sec is still 50,000 kg total, midway between the the two estimates. You could say it's "on the order of" either 10^4 or 10^5, depending on your preferences. >Note that the ion emission was detected intermittently so >clearly the amount would be much less than 10,000kg (which >assumes continuous emissions). And it also assumed intermittent detection due to changes in the direction of the electric field in the solar wind. I know that the 1991 paper said that the sporadic bursts detected didn't correlate well with the solar wind electric field direction. But it also said that the correlation was made with data from Explorer 35, which was at an apogee of 675 km from Earth, well within the magnetosphere. The Moon, of course, is much farther away than that and the later paper said it was near the Earth's bow shock wave at the time of the event, where conditions may be somewhat chaotic. So the correlation seems rather dubious. Maybe it was justified, but it seems to warrant more explanation than it was given in the 1991 pape given that the lack of correlation was the rationale for discarding the assumption of continuous ion emissions. >>The curious thing about the second paper is that it >>made no mention at all of what seemed to be the _salient_ fact >>in the first paper: that the event was detected at two sites 183 >>km apart. Only the Apollo 14 measurements were discussed in the >>second paper. No explanation was given for the observations at >>the Apollo 12 site on the same day. >The December 1972 report states that the Apollo 12 SIDE MA (mass >spectra analyzer) was too noisy and unusable. Although the >Apollo 12 ion detector (counter) was working and correlated to >the Apollo 14 site, the Apollo 12 site may have not even been >water ions. Maybe thats why he excluded it. The 1972 paper from the Lunar Science Conference Procedings said that the mass analyzer at the Apollo 12 site was too noisy. But there was a _second_ instrument called the TotalIon Detector (TID) that apparently was working OK at the Apollo 12 site. The TID can't distinguish between types of ions, like the MA can, but the readings at the Apollo 12 site correlated well with the TID at the Apollo 14 site. >Or maybe it was irrelevant, since it is known that the the >Apollo 12 detectors CAN detect Apollo 14 site emissions (from my >"first" report, which is how they got their calibration for >water mass estimates). Yes. From 27 km away. If two sites 183 km apart were both getting similar ion count rates, that implies the closest the source would have been was midway between them, or 91 km from both. Assuming the water vapor cloud was spreading out uniformly in all directions, the area covered would have been 10 times greater than the area covered by a cloud with a radius of 27 km. And the total mass would also have been at least 10 times the total mass released from a source at 27 km away from the detector. Using the same assumptions as in the second paper to arrive at a total of 500 kg released at a distance of 27 km, that would be 5000 kg, which is 1800kg more than the 3200 kg that the 1991 paper said was the _total_ water released in the lunar environment during the Apollo 14 mission. The total water released certainly didn't end up being absorbed by the lunar soil. That's a more detailed explanation of why the Apollo 12 readings seemed of such significance and why their omission from the 1991 paper seemed so strange. >>I'm far from being an expert on this subject, but the mysterious >>disappearance of the Apollo 12 observations in the second paper >>makes me wonder whether the estimate was revised to fit the >>facts or the facts were revised to fit someone's preferred >>theories. >More likely there is a reasonable explanation but the UFO >mythologists prefer mystery and conspiracy over humdrum prosaic >explanations. I don't view the "engineered moon" scenario as the most likely explanation. Comets have been bombarding the moon for a long time, and some small proportion of the huge quantities of water they carry may get trapped beneath the lunar surface after each impact and then escape occasionally. Ironically, not too long after Freeman's 1991 paper was published, lunar scientists started speculating that there may be a lot of cometary ice on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:09:51 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:24:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 >Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >The April 11, 2005 UFO incidents over Mexico city >Mexican researcher and skywatcher Ana Luisa Cid made an >excellent research on the April 11, 2005 UFO fleet incidents >over Mexico city and I would like to post her report as part of >this updated investigation. Our thanks to Ana Luisa for a >serious and professional work. >Santiago >----- >UFO Fleets Over Mexico >by >Ana Luisa Cid <snip> Hello Santiago: This is most interesting. Ana Luisa is regarded a serious UFO researcher and her independent investigation on the April 11th fleet should be taken seriously. I am aware that several other independent researchers and groups have conducted their analysis of the same fleet, reaching the conclusion that they could not have been balloons, as pointed out by a few colleagues in the States and in Brazil. So, if you would contact those researchers and groups, ask them and for their material in English to post to UFO UpDates and on the Brazilian Lists as well, please? Please transmit my congratulations to Ana.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Few Claim Intimacy With UFOs! From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:27:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:27:52 -0400 Subject: Few Claim Intimacy With UFOs! Source: The Hindustan Times http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1346295,00180007.htm May 3, 2005 Few Claim Intimacy With UFOs! AFP--Beijing Meng Zhaoguo, a rural worker from northeast China's Wuchang city, says he was 29 years old when he broke his marital vows for the first and only time - with a female extraterrestrial of unusually robust build. "She was three meters (10 feet) tall and had six fingers, but otherwise she looked completely like a human," he says of his close encounter with an alien species. "I told my wife all about it afterwards. She wasn't too angry." While few Chinese claim to have managed to get quite as intimate with an extraterrestrial as Meng, a growing number of people in the world's most populous nation believe in unidentified flying objects, or UFOs. Officially registered UFO associations in China have about 50,000 members, but some estimate the actual number of Chinese interested in the subject is probably in the tens of millions. Sun Shili is one of the most serious enthusiasts, and he knows exactly where he will be the day the extraterrestrials finally make contact with mankind. The 67-year-old retired Beijing professor will be in the 21-member delegation picked by international UFO associations to represent Earth as the first negotiations get underway. Once a Spanish translator for Mao Zedong during high-level state visits, Sun says language will not be a problem. "We expect to communicate using telepathy," he says. In a country that has lost its spiritual bearings as Marxism has given way to materialism, the idea of strange worlds light years away offers a last great hope for many. Richard McNally, a Harvard psychologist, says he recognizes the pattern from research into Westerners who claim to have been abducted by aliens and who characterized the experience as "spiritually deepening". "Our abductees typically describe themselves as 'spiritual' individuals for whom organized religion provides scant spiritual nourishment, and the Chinese UFO spotters may very well be like our subjects," McNally says. As Sun, the Spanish translator, sits one sunny spring morning in the Chinese capital, he points at the streets outside and explains how many of the people walking by are probably extraterrestrials in human guise. They are here to help mankind move human civilization on little by little, he explains. Shakespeare and Einstein were not from another planet, but they may very well have received inspiration from a galaxy far, far away. "It's estimated that 80 per cent of new inventions come to people in their dreams," says Sun. "Maybe this is is how the extraterrestrials pass on their knowledge to us." Extraterrestrials are moving mankind on the path towards perfection, but they can only do so in a very gradual fashion, Sun says. "They give us wisdom and skills that are just a little bit more advanced than what we have at any given moment," he says. "If they gave us their full range of knowledge all at once, we wouldn't be able to handle it." As in most other areas of human endeavor, China is also an emerging force to be reckoned with in UFO research. In September, the International Chinese UFO Association will hold an international meeting on UFO research in the northern port city of Dalian. "The fact that this meeting can be held shows that China is gradually becoming a great power in UFO research," says Zhang Jingping, a leading member of the association. A dedicated group of enthusiasts forming the core membership of the Beijing UFO Research Association are on constant alert, ready to move out and investigate observations of mysterious phenomena in the night sky. They take photos, record videos and interview witnesses, all in the interest of addressing the issue from a scientific point of view, according to Zhou Xiaoqiang, the chairman of the association. "The result is that 95 to 99 per cent of the sightings can be explained naturally, like airplanes or satellites," he says. "But a tiny minority may be real UFOs, and we should take them seriously." Zhou, a 57-year-old executive at a transportation company, spends most of his waking hours studying UFOs, but he remembers a time when it was not allowed. After the Cultural Revolution broke out in 1966, his fresh university degree earned him a one-way ticket to the deep countryside, a victim of Mao's scheme to instil proletarian values in the intellectuals. The dreary life almost made him forget there might be something beyond the narrow confines of the rural community where he spent the next decade. But then when the Cultural Revolution finally ended, and China slowly emerged from decades of self-imposed isolation, Zhou remembers watching Steven Spielberg's film classic "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". It was a revelation. It was not just a new world that opened up to him, but a whole new universe, where everything seemed possible -- even extraterrestrials. "Chinese people are interested in UFOs now because their lives have improved," says Zhou. "They no longer have to worry about getting enough to eat, but can start caring about issues like this." Huang Yanqiu, a 49-year-old farmer from Beigao village in north China's Hebei province, recalls his one and only encounter with extraterrestrials in 1977. He woke up in the middle of the night and found himself in front of two men who looked and spoke like ordinary humans. But they had special powers, taking him on a nightly flight on their backs to all corners of China, from Heilongjiang province in the north to Fujian province in the southeast. Eventually, they carried him to Tiananmen Square.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:12:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:32:35 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:25:27 -0300 >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:03:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>I am afraid that you and your fellow Mexican UFO >>esearchers are being made fools of with sometimes >>sophisticated and complex balloon releases. >>If I saw complex fast movement, circling, darting, >>then I would be more inclined to put the UFO >>moniker on these videos. >I am afraid it is not that simple, James. >I have watched quite carefully the videos and read a few >reports and witness's accounts of the "flotillas", and I am >inclined to believe that _some_ of them definitely have >no easy explanation. If any. They simply defy logic in >all terms. Okay. You say some of them, then you say maybe _none_ of them have an easy explanation. Exactly which videos do you think have an easy explanation? >Sure, I certainly agree with the fact that there are >involuntary misunderstandings of some images, that >ended up included as genuine flotillas, and some >voluntary hoaxs, perpetrated by people taking advantage >of the situation. It is a natural thing. I would first find out who is the author of each of the videos and examine this person's reputation and credibility. Was the author asked to film the video by someone else? Was the object pointed out by someone else for the author to film? >However, to simply rule all the flotillas as either hoaxes >or genuine UFO fleets is a big mistake. Each case has to >be analyzed separatelly, to start with. Then, take the >ones which defy explanation and analyze them as group, >observing and registering their common behavior, shapes, >sizes, flight patterns etc. If you wish to devote you time to this, fine. No one is stopping you. We all have different filters. The problem is that there is alot of sensationalism and hype which, although it may play well on Telemundo, would not be respectible in a scientific journal. If you want to make money, then by all means distribute UFO fleet videos or UFO hieroglyphics videos. If you want to explain it, then hunker down and do the legwork and make sure you got all the data you can to verify the video before placing your reputation on it. But then, what sells to audiences of people who want to believe (and perhaps take national pride in) is UFOs, not analysis of UFOs. After the Campeche UFO video fiasco, which some people still stubbornly refuse to believe was oil rig burnoff flares, I would hope folk would have learned its better to do analysis up front.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Nigel Watson <VALIS23A.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:13:45 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:37:01 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:55:46 -0300 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology ..... >Nigel, >Where in the name of heavens did you get that idea from? Of all >of the cases out there you pick this as being the most >important? >>On a more important and final point where is the objective, >>empirical evidence for the Hill abduction? >On the other hand, where is the evidence against it. Hi gentle UFO folk, I'm not sure where Don Ledger has been lately - perhaps on a trip to Venus with J.C. - but he has convinced me that the Hill case is not important. Therefore the evidence for it or against it is worthless, and debate about this case is equally worthless. Can I also assume that all other alien abduction cases are equally useless to the cause of ufology? Whilst we are at it can we just concede that ufology is just a passing myth? it certainly has no supporters who have any desire
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:40:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:38:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 >Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >"Balloons always behave shaking and are guided by air draught. >When they reach higher altitudes they scatter and take diferent >directions. If you release a set of balloons, you will likely do so over a set area and slightly different times. Each balloon will have slightly different buoyancy. They will go up (or at an angle with a slight wind near the ground) until they hit a layer of air, sizable compared to the balloon size, moving in relation to the ground. Any upward or lateral velocity of the balloon at that point will be overwhelmed and likely not noticeable because of the higher rate of speed of the wind. This layer may be with fairly low turbulence althought the transistion layer is likely turbulent. Once in the fairly uniform layer, all balloons will seem to be travelling at roughly the same lateral speed. They will keep roughly the same distance between them. Obviously if they were travelling in a turbulent wind layer, then they would be moving with respect to one another in such a way as to make their balloonness clear. So it seems to me that you don't even NEED strings to connect the balloons. All you need is a nice mostly laminar layer of air. What we don't know is how many days balloons were released and filmed but the wind layer was all wrong. How many tries before these "good" UFO fleet videos appeared? >"These objects don't have the characteristics of balloons >neither the condition. They don't present the usual >disorganized movements of balloons, on the countrary >these anomalous objects >behave themselves in a very arranged way. This is a naive understanding of balloons. To rephrase, a low level turbulent atmosphere is where the balloons are released and thus they will behave in a random appearing manner, although they do go upward. Once at a sufficient altitude to enter a more laminar or continuous flow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:20:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:39:40 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:41:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned argument. >As you have demonstrated. <snip> Max Eastman, in his Introduction to the Modern Library edition of Karl Marx's writings (Capital, etc.) in 1932, had this to say:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Universe Has Many Alternative Histories Which From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:23:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:41:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Universe Has Many Alternative Histories Which >Source: The Independant - London, UK >http://comment.independent.co.uk/podium/story.jsp?story=629139 >April 15, 2005 >'The Universe Has Many Alternative Histories, But Which Is Real?' <snip> I don't know if I missed something, but it doesn't appear to me that anything he said was new or surprising, or a sign of genius original thought. It is often the case that we build a theory and work backwards to see if we can arrive at a possible chain of events that would produce an hypothesis. If I understood the article correctly, he has taken the theory out of the lab and extended it to the Cosmos, which again isn't particularly original - it is being done all the time, by people theorising about how supernovae arise, how black holes are formed, whether or not the big-bang hypothesis is correct, etc. Medicine and technology use similar techniques, ie taking the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Reverse Engineering By NASA From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:49:05 -0400 Subject: Reverse Engineering By NASA I have been researching a location in North Phoenix which has seen a very high concentration of UFO/Anomalous light reports. Documentation of this anomaly generated the interest of some scientists that have a wide variety of scientific instruments at their disposal. The results of the surveys were quite strange and included high gamma radiation levels, clear-sky discharge detection(lightening with no clouds) and areas where a sensitive EM instrument could not detect the earth's magnetic field. An extensive search for the causality of these events led to the writing of the article below. I think you may find it informative and it might just change the way you think about possible forms of Extraterrestrial Design Technology. http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/ROCKVARNISH.html Regards, Rob Kritkausky
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:27:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:51:02 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:05:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 <snip> >I normally ignore this X-Conference stuff, but you have really >hit the nail on the head with this one. >As I have wrote before about the hostility of aliens, it is >obvious that many of the UFO/alien reports show evil intent. If >aliens don't look at it as evil because of their culture, fine. >But we can still examine it from our culture and label it >appropriately. >Clearly, any "assumptions" of nice, friendly, good aliens is >based on wishful thinking rather than examining the database of >cases. As an interesting note, I seem to recall that Dr. Steven Greer has said that man should accept the benevolent behavior of "aliens", just as your pet has to accept his trip the the Vet. It seems, your pet may not truly understand the reason for the examination and potential pain, and humans must learn to accept
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:33:37 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:53:37 -0400 Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:05:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:02:46 -0700 >>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part I - 05-30-05 >>Introducing his theme, and eerily setting the tone for the >>entire conference, Balducci flatly declared that >>"extraterrestrials will be more inclined to good" than are >>humans. Warming up, he told his audience: "It's not possible >>that beings more evil than us can exist in other worlds... we >>are the worst of all!" <snip> >I normally ignore this X-Conference stuff, but you have really >hit the nail on the head with this one. >As I have wrote before about the hostility of aliens, it is >obvious that many of the UFO/alien reports show evil intent. If >aliens don't look at it as evil because of their culture, fine. >But we can still examine it from our culture and label it >appropriately. >Clearly, any "assumptions" of nice, friendly, good aliens is >based on wishful thinking rather than examining the database of >cases. I'd have to agree with the above. As I've said before on this List, the notion that our evolved species is any more violent, or less for that matter, is pure sci-fi and would in fact fly in the face of any species that had to fight its way to the top of the evolutionary chain. I can't imagine any race of sentient beings having evolved without doing damage or killing others of it's domain to, first stay alive and secondly, eat and third dominate its environment to the point that science and engineering could progess to the point where they could conquer space. Unless you accomplish the first three you can't have the leasure time and peace of mind, to think and invent.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? - From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:01:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:54:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? - >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:08:48 +1000 >Subject: Re: Abductees Reporting Slit-Style Eye Pupils? <snip> >Hi Eleanor, >I can't comment about other abduction reports but off the top of >my head I've received 2 reports of vertical slit pupils from >people over the years. Thanks, Sheryl - Maybe I'm not 'losing it' after all! My thought was that the existence of people on Earth with the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Arturo Robles Gil - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:31:37 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:57:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Arturo Robles Gil - Gevaerd >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:19:53 -0500 >Subject: Arturo Robles Gil >Dear Errol and Fellow Listers: >I just wanted to see what this video of "fleets of UFOs" taken >by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil looked like so I plugged his name in a >Google search and this is what came up: <snip> Please note that Robles Gild isn=B4t the only claiming to have a footage of an alledged UFO fleet on April 11. =46rom the location of Tlalpan Mr. Raul Orozco Montano, a long- term UFO researcher, skywatcher and field investigator of Corporacion Ovni, also filmed a flotilla.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:40:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:59:30 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:01:08 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:04:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >You should read a little more carefully before you reply all in >a huff. I did not mean to sound huffy. >I never said anything about keeping the public in the >dark. I was speculating more along the lines of peer pressure, >group think, and herd mentality among planetary scientists, who >seem to have an aversion to the notion of liquid water not only >on the Moon, but on Mars as well. Despite the fact that the >water phase diagram says otherwise, there've been repeated >assertions made over the years by scientists that liquid water >cannot exist on Mars. It can and, I suspect, probably does >intermittently at certain elevations, latitudes, and seasons. >But once unqualified pronouncments are repeated frequently >enough in the mass media by sufficiently important scientists, >it seems that they just become accepted as fact without much >dispute by scientists as a group. Okay, I misunderstood your position. However, it is not clear to me how you can infer "peer pressure, group think, and herd mentality" caused Mr. Freeman to revisit his paper after 20 years. Consider that the truest, most powerful time of peer pressure is prior to any paper being written. In fact, he might have been trying to find enough data to confirm his previous results so as to get recognition and more funding!! Because he wrote two initial papers about 1 year apart, I am inclined to believe NO peer pressure existed to remove the "anomaly" of water on the Moon. >I haven't seen the paper you're referring to, but it's probably >because in the first paper they used a water release rate of 5 >kg/sec for the Apollo 14 lander, but that was actually a total >exhaust gas rate. Water was about 20% of emissions, which would >be about 1 kg/sec. But 14 hours at 1 kg/sec is still 50,000 kg >total, midway between the the two estimates. You could say it's >"on the order of" either 10^4 or 10^5, depending on your >preferences. Assuming it is continuous and assuming the corrleations based on known water releases can be used for inferring water quantities. >>Note that the ion emission was detected intermittently so >>clearly the amount would be much less than 10,000kg (which >>assumes continuous emissions). >And it also assumed intermittent detection due to changes in the >direction of the electric field in the solar wind. I know that >the 1991 paper said that the sporadic bursts detected didn't >correlate well with the solar wind electric field direction. But >it also said that the correlation was made with data from >Explorer 35, which was at an apogee of 675 km from Earth, well >within the magnetosphere. The Moon, of course, is much farther >away than that and the later paper said it was near the Earth's >bow shock wave at the time of the event, where conditions may be >somewhat chaotic. So the correlation seems rather dubious. Maybe >it was justified, but it seems to warrant more explanation than >it was given in the 1991 pape given that the lack of correlation >was the rationale for discarding the assumption of continuous >ion emissions. Okay, I agree more explanation was warranted. >The 1972 paper from the Lunar Science Conference Procedings said >that the mass analyzer at the Apollo 12 site was too noisy. But >there was a _second_ instrument called the TotalIon Detector >(TID) that apparently was working OK at the Apollo 12 site. The >TID can't distinguish between types of ions, like the MA can, >but the readings at the Apollo 12 site correlated well with the >TID at the Apollo 14 site. Yes, I know and stated this. You need to ask him why he omitted the Apollo 12 data in the 1991 paper. I doubt it was due to peer pressure. There is likely a good rationale. >That's a more detailed explanation of why the Apollo 12 >readings seemed of such significance and why their omission from >the 1991 paper seemed so strange. Okay, you make a good point, although I still don't see any peer pressure in this. >Ironically, not too long >after Freeman's 1991 paper was published, lunar scientists >started speculating that there may be a lot of cometary ice on >the surface of the moon at the south pole, which has a deep >basin where large areas are in permanent shadow. Subsurface ice
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:01:15 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:07:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:50:15 +0100 >>>Subject: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear Sigh, Peter, >>>I guess we know why you're a pelicanist, and not a detective, >>Peter. Thank God; your capacity for actual harm to actual human >>beings is thereby considerably reduced. >Meaningless drivel We are all relieved that you're a librarian and not a cop for a simple reason which more objective observers than you will see as obvious and cogent. As you have demonstrated, you prefer not to listen to what witnesses are actually saying, since what you're saying about what they said is always of more significance to you, and finally all that matters. Arguably, that could make you a good novelist, an occupation where spinning fantasy from fact is a necessary virtue, but it would not make you a good police officer. Or, given your penchant for rewriting UFO history in order to advance a weak argument, a good historian, either. >>You're confusing - conveniently, I must say, and in the usual >>have- it-both-ways fashion of the pelicanist - Webb's dismissal >>of the significance of Barney Hill's confused testimony with the >>significance of what Hill seems to have been trying to say, >>which was that he had memories a very close encounter with >>aliens inconsistent both with his conscious memories and with >>the consciously recalled time line. The significance of Webb's >>dismissal speaks right to the point: that pelicanist doctrine >>notwithstanding, ufologists and witnesses had no concept of >>missing time in 1961. >The idea of missing time came with suggests from Hohmann and >Jackson in 1962, so it wasn't there in 1961 which is what I >said. Missing time was, as I have several times remarked, with appropriate quote to match, there from the beginning, as the Hills's words to Walt Webb indicate. No one had to place the idea in their heads, and your continuing insistence to the contrary - putting your own words into the Hills's mouths, in effect - does not alter that simple fact. It only demonstrates that to you conviction matters more than evidence. >>In 1965, looking back on his 1961 investigation, Webb - by the >>way, one of the finest field investigators American ufology has >>ever produced - wrote, "When I met the Hills after their >>experience in the White Mountains, Barney appeared to be deeply >>concerned by the 'leader' in the UFO (first encountered) and by >>his failure to recall events immediately after watching this >>figure. Both witnesses were perplexed that they had no >>conscious recollection of events between the odd beeping sounds >>nor of the route they traveled in that interval." >Yes by 1965 the idea of missing time had been introduced, by, as >I said before, other ufologists Actually, the Hills introduced the idea to ufologists (first, in their interview with Walt Webb), as everybody but you appears to have grasped by now. Beyond that, missing time seems to have been there in some pre- Hill cases but was (understandably, given the limitations of what ufologists knew back then) unrecognized and unremarked upon. In other words, missing time was there waiting to be found. Ufologists had nothing to do with it beyond, at last, finding it. Are you going to tell us next that ufologists invented daylight discs? Cloud cigars? E-M effects? I know that pelicanists are attracted to what amounts to magical thinking about social and psychological processes, but I trust you will spare us this much. >>Now, folks, who you gonna believe: a bright, accomplished >>investigator who actually spoke with the Hills after their >>initial 1961 report - or Peter Rogerson? Who is the authority >>here? Yes, those are rhetorical questions. >That's the same investigator you were saying just didn't get it >about the missing time isn't it. Yup, finally! At least you catch my point - that even the brightest, most informed ufologists (e.g., Webb) of the period did not recognize the notion of missing memory in UFO cases. Now, here's the question: Why are we even _talking_ about this? Missing time, whatever its explanation, has been repeatedly demonstrated over the decades as an aspect of the abduction phenomenon, however explained. It is pointless and absurd to pretend that only the Hills had ever had this experience (however explained). Maybe if they alone spoke of it and it was never heard of again anywhere, this discussion would have some reason to exist. Since they aren't alone, this exchange is as urgently needed as a debate on pin- top-dancing angels. Perhaps, Peter, you have more time on your hands than I do (I am writing a book which, as always, I hope will advance our knowledge and thinking a little bit more); or maybe, for psychosocial reasons perhaps unknown even to yourself, you have an intellectually fatal attraction to dubious-to- hopeless points of view. Or maybe, you're just being disingenuous, though somehow, knowing you as I do, I doubt it. Here's a small suggestion: If you sincerely desire to explain the abduction phenomenon (I know I do; I hope we have at least that much in common), then you'd better deal with what witnesses tell us, in other words the actual phenomenon (whatever its ultimate nature) that witnesses experience and report. We aren't interested in the abduction phenomenon that exists only in Peter Rogerson's imagination. And if you still don't understand why the construction of strawmen to be knocked down is a very bad, self-defeating, and profoundly anti-scientific practice, may I urge you to reread - or read for the first time - David J. Hufford's The Terror That Comes in the Night, a book-length inquiry into the dangers of the course you're pursuing? Or let me put it this way, rather more bluntly: Anybody who claims to be addressing the abduction phenomenon and refuses to acknowledge one of its most consistent features, repeatedly demonstrated over time and space, is not worth my time. Or any serious person's.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:04:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:13:05 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:19:39 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >You are avoiding all details of such a proposed hoax. The >daytime atmosphere is always turbulent, from the ground up to >many hundreds of feet. Mr. Deardorff, I was not aware that you were such an expert in balloons. I have reconsidered my position with regards to strings (sorry, but not based on your argument although it was clever) even being needed at all to allow balloons to maintain there distance fairly well between each other. You assume that the "UFOs" are being filmed in a turbulent layer. You are correct that lower levels of atmosphere are somewhat turbulent. Higher up you will encounter (with some level of probability) uniform layers of wind going at some velocity with respect to the ground. Of course there is a turbulent boundary layer between the two, but that is quickly crossed. The scenario is this. Release the balloons. None need to be attached to each other (although a cluster of three balloons makes a nice "mother ship"). Each balloon goes upward, maybe vertically, maybe at a slight angle depending on the lower level wind. They _all_ will flop around, tossed by slight wind currents, but they keep going upward. They go up until they hit the uniform wind layer. As they insert into the wind layer, their overall velocity is overwhelmingly dominated by the wind, thus they a lose most of the turbulent levocities imparted prior to insertion into this layer. As each balloon is inserted into this layer, it is carried at the same velocity. It may even still be going up, but the "rapid" velocity in the horizontal direction is the most noticeable. The result is a collection of balloons that all seem to be going in the same direction and keep their spacing fairly well. All your comments of turbulence and wind shear are fine for low level balloons, but once they reach the wind layer I am referring to, it applies only minimally. Reviewing the 100's of "UFOs" "fleet", this is apparent to me after watching the thing a few times. So there is no need for strings! Just a nice wind layer which frequently occurs over all areas. But if you want to believe in these UFO fleets, don't let me stop you. It will liven up a UFO meeting and maybe you can get
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:17:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:15:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:07:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:50:15 +0100 >>>Subject: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >>>I guess we know why you're a pelicanist, and not a detective, >>Peter. Thank God; your capacity for actual harm to actual human >>beings is thereby considerably reduced. >Meaningless drivel Parsecs away from meaningless and decidedly not drivel, Sir. But, that would be your reflexive reaction to being too well described, found out, and then summarily unmasked. Like many with your limited philosophy and abject homocentrism you protest too much, too quickly, and for too long a time. >>You're confusing - conveniently, I must say, and in the usual >>have- it-both-ways fashion of the pelicanist - Webb's dismissal >>of the significance of Barney Hill's confused testimony with the >>significance of what Hill seems to have been trying to say, >>which was that he had memories a very close encounter with >>aliens inconsistent both with his conscious memories and with >>the consciously recalled time line. The significance of Webb's >>dismissal speaks right to the point: that pelicanist doctrine >>notwithstanding, ufologists and witnesses had no concept of >>missing time in 1961. >The idea of missing time came with suggests from Hohmann and >Jackson in 1962, so it wasn't there in 1961 which is what I >said. It's pretty clear where you are on this, though, and given your tedious intransigence on this and other subjects in the milieu it's a good bet that you can be ignored on this point whether your are correct or not. Face it Mr. Rogerson, you're dry at the credibility bank, suffer an expanding paucity of relevance, and whimper the same tired tune as if it still had value. Pack it in or risk humiliating yourself further. Verily. >>In 1965, looking back on his 1961 investigation, Webb - by the >>way, one of the finest field investigators American ufology has >>ever produced - wrote, "When I met the Hills after their >>experience in the White Mountains, Barney appeared to be deeply >>concerned by the 'leader' in the UFO (first encountered) and by >>his failure to recall events immediately after watching this >>figure. Both witnesses were perplexed that they had no >>conscious recollection of events between the odd beeping sounds >>nor of the route they traveled in that interval." >Yes by 1965 the idea of missing time had been introduced, by, as >I said before, other ufologists But likely not in the way that it is presently understood and far from something the Hills would have made up on their own for purposes of their own all invented by you and your flock. I don't forget how important it is to you that ufology be discredited so your wounded worldview can be assuaged... I just don't have any concern, appreciation, or respect for it. Your world view twitches to its inevitable death, and the world will be improved thereby. >>Now, folks, who you gonna believe: a bright, accomplished >>investigator who actually spoke with the Hills after their >>initial 1961 report - or Peter Rogerson? Who is the authority >>here? Yes, those are rhetorical questions. > >That's the same investigator you were saying just didn't get it >about the missing time isn't it. > That was weak, Sir. "Accomplished" and "bright" were the words used, not infallible and omniscient. >>>It's hard to remember back damn near 40 years, but I don't >>>recall as a teenage ufo buff finding this story so unprecedented >>>even though I didn't encounter the AVB case till 1967. The >>>literature around at the time prepared us for it. Far from being >>>treated as a wild story heading for the wpb, the Hill story got >>>a respectful hearing from the start, even from my ever skeptical >>>colleague John Harney. >>Your memory is pretty dismal, Peter, though it does serve, if not >>very compellingly, your argument, such as it is. We may assume >>that no memory that failed to do so would ever be permitted to >>rise to the surface of Rogersonian consciousness. >If you are accusing me of lying please come out and say so. I would imagine that both things, lying and truth-telling, are pretty much the same in your crowd, Mr. Rogerson. Whatever it takes to suit the whims of the churlish ideologue in portentous pursuit of a discredited status quo. >>In reality, the Hill abduction story was a sensation in the >>ufology of the period, which had no known precedent for it. The >>reception, far from being "respectful," was mixed. The largest >>American organization of the time, NICAP, which had been >>responsible for the initial investigation of what then seemed a >>fairly typical CE3, rejected the abduction aspect outright as "A >>Dream via Hypnosis" (actual title of brief NICAP kiss-off in >>U.F.O. Investigator, August/September 1966, p. 8). Other >>ufologists - those who already were interested in CE3s (that >>didn't include everybody in early ufology, as historians of the >>subject are aware) - were more open-minded, but reservations >>about the efficacy of hypnosis remained a recurring theme in >>treatments of the abduction aspect. Webb himself concluded that >>the material that emerged under hypnosis explained aspects of >>the testimony that otherwise had made no sense to him. Again, >>on this subject, who you gonna believe? The guy who was >>actually there, or Peter Rogerson? Again, rhetorical questions. >>The rest of you who may be interested in what pre-Hill >>anomalistics and ufology were _actually_ like may wish to read >>my paper "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of >>the UFO Abduction Phenomenon." It's in The Anomalist 8 (Spring >>2000): 11-31. The issue can be ordered from >>http://www.anomalist.com/ >Jerry, every time you use the word pelicanist, Listfolk should >assume you have lost the argument and have nothing better than >schoolyard abuse to come up with. Or, every time they read the word "pelicanist" they can be reminded that it is a _mild_ representation of a person without courage, intelligence, imagination, or sense... one who dotes on discredited conventional wisdom, honors a suspect status quo, and thrives only within his mainstream of tired disrepute. Pelicanist is shorter. >The fact that most British >ufologists refuse to acknowledge your desire to be the Pope of >ufology issuing ex cathedra statements aiming to close down all >argument clearly galls you Ahh! There's some pompous pride that will go before the inevitable fall. _Who_ wishes to be Pope, Sir? "Clark's a snob elitist and an ET plutocrat? There's precious little value in ones thinking such as that. Like all preceding indicates (in decades of our time), of _that_ there is no evidence, small reason, and ill-rhyme. An honored man won't suffer fools who beg to be corrected, then prattle an 'inconsequence' to keep their ass's 'face' protected..."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:47:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:17:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Smith >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:59:58 -0700 >Subject: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens Good and evil depends on perspective in this matter. Aliens may think it good to completely control humans, harvest their organs or genes, whatever. They may think humans evil since they destroy their world and perform alien autopsies and such. So the question is are the aliens good to humans from a human perspective or evil. (I guess then you must define what humans think is good and evil too since many dictators think they are doing their citizens good by controlling them). >I noticed that Stephen Bassett suggests we continue to debate >the moral character, etc. of alleged aliens present on earth >(and reportedly interacting with us in various ways). >Is their a reliable, and sufficient, body of data to really >carry on a useful debate? Using UFO databases and UFO folklore, we should have enough data (its hard to separate each!). We can assume that the body of data we currently have is enough to form an initial assessment with probabilities associated for each conclusion. It would be too late if we waited until we got much better quality data (cities being blown up by aliens). Better to be on the side of conservativeness rather than blissful and welcoming. Abductions and all their problems don't even have to be considered. Just look at all the cases of close calls with aircraft, UFOs terrorizing people by following them, stopping cars, irradiating people, being misinterpreted as non-alien military attacks (yes, aliens SHOULD be smart enough to realize that COULD happen), blatantly violating human laws of airspace/property. Really, we need more data, if any, of good things they do for humans. >One of the things that irritated the hell out of me, during the >dying days of Operation Right To Know (I was a co-founder), was >the amount of space taken up in our Right To Know Forum (in the >last few issues) over this very debate. My irritation probably >was based on the feeling that I simply didn't know enough (or, I >didn't assume that what others thought that they "knew" was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:40:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:24:21 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Balaskas >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:11:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage <snip> >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >>With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >>Monday at: >>www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 >As I pointed out in an earlier message, the first 'UFO Fleet' >film was by Delbert Newhouse, Navy photographer, near Tremonton >Utah in July, 1952. This is a famous film in UFO history. At the >time no one referred to it as a "flotilla" or "fleet" of UFOs... >but there were many of them. >The Condon analyst, Hartmann, suggested that they were birds. Of >course, little attention was paid to the description given by >Newhouse when the objects were close. Minutes later he managed >to film them and by that time thy were quite a distance away. Hi Everyone! Until every video of such alleged UFO flotillas over Mexico can be viewed unedited by others so they can be evaluted based on the facts and on their own merits independent of other similar videos, we cannot rule out all other reasonable or probable explanations such as balloons or birds. I look forward to the opportunity of closely studying the complete new video footage which will soon be made available to all. If a minimum of three UFOs is what would constitute a flotilla, then such a flotilla of was filmed over the skies of Mexico one year before the famous Tremonton movie that Bruce mentioned above. In the summer of 1951, news reporters and photographers waiting for the arrival of General George C. Marshal (then U.S. Secretary of State) in Mexico City saw and took pictures and film of three saucer-shaped craft over the airport. This UFO incident was quickly covered up. When Marshall was asked for the reasons for the continued denials and censorship of the existence of flying saucers, he replied that the U.S.A. wanted her people to concentrate on the real menace, Communism, and not to be distracted by the visitors from outer space (see FSR, July/August 1979).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 More Kaku From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:55:02 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:27:32 -0400 Subject: More Kaku Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/4483221.stm Michio Kaku -- Parallel Worlds? In a Hardtalk Extra interview broadcast on Friday 22 April [2005], Gavin Esler spoke to theoretical physicist Michio Kaku about the fate of planet earth. Click here to watch the full interview: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/05/hardtalk/kaku22apr.ram We know how difficult it is for the US government and its allies to organise an exit strategy from Iraq. So imagine how difficult it would be to organise an exit strategy from planet earth? It sounds like science fiction, but it isn't. The universe which scientists tell us began with a 'Big Bang' looks likely to end with a 'Big Freeze'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 4 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:15:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:39:10 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <VALIS23A.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:13:45 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >Hi gentle UFO folk, >I'm not sure where Don Ledger has been lately - perhaps on a >trip to Venus with J.C. - but he has convinced me that the Hill >case is not important. >Therefore the evidence for it or against it is worthless, and >debate about this case is equally worthless. >Can I also assume that all other alien abduction cases are >equally useless to the cause of ufology? >Whilst we are at it can we just concede that ufology is just a >passing myth? it certainly has no supporters who have any desire >to provide proof for their arguments. On the other hand if >insults could create aliens we would be swamped by them. Nigel, I find it interesting that you seem to feel that ufology is a cause to be supported or opposed, rather than a pursuit of knowledge. But from the tone of the conversation that I've seen, I doubt anyone is interested in actually approaching this with the idea of learning anything. One can set up "straw man" arguments all day long if it makes one feel better, but I doubt it will have much impact on the field. Perhaps it would be better for some to simply conclude that ufology is a "myth" and move on.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:19:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:02:22 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:40:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon <snip> >However, it is not clear to me how you can infer "peer pressure, >group think, and herd mentality" caused Mr. Freeman to revisit >his paper after 20 years. Consider that the truest, most >powerful time of peer pressure is prior to any paper being >written. In fact, he might have been trying to find enough data >to confirm his previous results so as to get recognition and >more funding!! Because he wrote two initial papers about 1 year >apart, I am inclined to believe NO peer pressure existed to >remove the "anomaly" of water on the Moon. Peer pressure isn't necessarily angry phone calls from university department heads threatening funding cuts. It can be years of enduring thinly veiled hostility and snide remarks from "colleagues" at scientific conferences. That was Gil Levin's experience. Levin has written that he was treated like a "non- person" (his own words) for years because he refused to renounce his opinion that his Viking Labeled Release experiment discovered life on Mars. _That_ is peer pressure. Levin never caved, but some people do. I don't necessarily blame them. <snip> >>The 1972 paper from the Lunar Science Conference Procedings said >>that the mass analyzer at the Apollo 12 site was too noisy. But >>there was a _second_ instrument called the TotalIon Detector >>(TID) that apparently was working OK at the Apollo 12 site. The >>TID can't distinguish between types of ions, like the MA can, >>but the readings at the Apollo 12 site correlated well with the >>TID at the Apollo 14 site. >Yes, I know and stated this. You need to ask him why he omitted >the Apollo 12 data in the 1991 paper. I doubt it was due to peer >pressure. There is likely a good rationale. Freeman considered the readings from the Apollo 12 site to be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:03:09 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:05:52 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <VALIS23A.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:13:45 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:55:46 -0300 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology ..... >>Where in the name of heavens did you get that idea from? Of >>all of the cases out there you pick this as being the most >>important? >>>On a more important and final point where is the objective, >>>empirical evidence for the Hill abduction? >>On the other hand, where is the evidence against it. >I'm not sure where Don Ledger has been lately - perhaps on a >trip to Venus with J.C. - but he has convinced me that the Hill >case is not important. Therefore the evidence for it or against >it is worthless, and debate about this case is equally >worthless. >Can I also assume that all other alien abduction cases are >equally useless to the cause of ufology? Whilst we are at it >can we just concede that ufology is just a passing myth? it >certainly has no supporters who have any desire to provide proof >for their arguments. On the other hand if insults could create >aliens we would be swamped by them. I'll give someone twenty bucks if they can figure out what questions Nigel is answering here. It certainly wasn't the two I posted. And Jerry and I had a lovely trip to Venus. The weather there was very warm however - and cloudy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: More Kaku - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:27:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:14:07 -0400 Subject: Re: More Kaku - Balaskas >From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:55:02 +0200 >Subject: More Kaku <snip> >In a Hardtalk Extra interview broadcast on Friday 22 April >2005, Gavin Esler spoke to theoretical physicist Michio Kaku >about the fate of planet earth. >Click here to watch the full interview: >http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/05/hardtalk/kaku22apr.ram >We know how difficult it is for the US government and its allies >to organise an exit strategy from Iraq. >So imagine how difficult it would be to organise an exit >strategy from planet earth? >It sounds like science fiction, but it isn't. >The universe which scientists tell us began with a 'Big Bang' >looks likely to end with a 'Big Freeze'. >This is bad news for intelligent life forms. >Gavin Esler talks to one of the world's leading experts in >theoretical physics. He hears about some possible means of >escape from our doomed planet earth. Hi Diana! Such hypotheses, speculations and educated guesses by scientists, many of which are not taken very seriously among themselves and some of which have recently been quietly discarded but are still promoted as fact so as not to reveal their total ignorance of reality (eg. the Big Bang, biological evolution, etc.) have been and continue to be not only big sources of anxiety for us in the world but often obstacles to the truth. Although the end for all intelligent life forms currently living on Earth will come within the next 100 years or so (this is an accepted scientific fact), fortunately it will not all be at the same time since we do not all die at once. That said, there is evidence of such global catastrophes that did wipe out all life recently but miraculously (through the intervention of a higher intelligences?) reestablished itself again on Earth. One of these catastrophes is the Genesis Flood which, according to one leading scientist in tectonophysics, Dr. John Baumgardner, created the present continents when the Earth's crust quickly sank into the mantle at rates of up to 7 meters per second (much higher than the present continental drift rates of a few cenitmeters per year). As further evidence of such rapid tectonic activity, this scientist points to the strange surface of our "twin planet" Venus that can be better understood if it too had gone through a similar violent tectonic catastrophy in recent times. Even with our simple 3-D cosmologies which we can easily relate to, we accept that energy and matter are conserved and since we are more than just flesh and blood, as eternal beings we have nothing to worry about. So let us continue to concern ourselves with our place and purpose in this vast universe and our relationship to the rest of creation, including UFOs and possible ETs, than to worry about the latest threats to Earth by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:54:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:18:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:20:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:41:36 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >Max Eastman, in his Introduction to the Modern Library edition of >Karl Marx's writings (Capital, etc.) in 1932, had this to say: >A quick recourse to skepticism, a readiness to say "I don't know" >when large general questions come up... is the surest mark of an >advanced scientific mind, whether practical or theoretical. Thank you, Rich. Well said and exactly to my point. I don't know what the abduction phenomenon is about. It is an interesting, curious, and - to all indications - complex business, generating far more questions than answers. I don't pretend to certainty, and I am puzzled why others should. What's wrong with admitting our ignorance and working, without prejudice, to shed light where so far there's only darkness? It seems to me that, given how little (if indeed anything) has been proved at this stage, agnosticism is the only available course until we have better data and leads. Lousy arguments and dubious reasoning on either side - let me repeat, _either side_ - get us precisely nowhere. Abduction research, like ufology itself, ought not to be treated like a cause, pro or con, but as scientific inquiry whose reward is the unlocking of mysteries of nature and consciousness. We should define victory as the finding of solid answers to tough questions, not the triumph of a beloved theory or belief. I have no dog in the abduction fight, and neither ought any other serious observer. I might mention my own private views are represented by neither abduction debunkers nor abduction proponents. Budd Hopkins judges me to be a, in his words, a "sympathetic skeptic" on the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: The NASA Moon Photos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:55:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: Re: The NASA Moon Photos - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:19:51 +0100 >Subject: Re: The NASA Moon Photos >>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:30:51 +0800 >>Subject: The NASA Moon Photos Thi is a resend of the reply which did not make it through. Enjoy! Its good for the record plus has some nice historical data. >>Source: Palyne 'PJ' Gaenir's Fire Docs Collections >>The NASA Moon Photos >>My Story Of Dealing With NASA In The 1970's >>by Vito Saccheri >>Leonard had mentioned that the photos were >>numbered sequentially by the cameras. He also had mentioned >>that each time the on-board computer analyzing a photo picked >>up an anomaly, it triggered a sequence of additional photos >>that zoomed in on the target closer and closer. >Real-time image analysis, "anomaly" detection, and autonomous >decision-making by "on-board computer"? In the 1970s? I'd like >to hear what James Smith has to say about that! The book this guy was talking about was full of Lunar Orbiter images. There were five such missions to help figure out nice Apollo landing sites. This occurred during the 1966-67 time frame. Anyway, NASA Langley was in charge of the mission and this explains the reason why the image numbering was related to the "Langley, Virginia" region the witness wrote about. Brad Sparks was right and the witness blithely misunderstood the location and infers some sort of secrecy was involved . Well, it spiced up the story! The interesting part of the Lunar Orbiter spacecraft was that it used a imaging system (developed by Kodak) which was an UNCLASSIFIED version of the CORONA system used in spy work done by National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) in Virginia. The resolution was indeed good (~1 meter). With 610 mm and 80mm lenses and 70 mm film. The film was developed onboard using a Kodak method. It took pictures on the film with both lenses at the same time. But it has to be understood that the camera on the vehicle was orbiting the Moon (did not return with its film) and was taking film images and scanning them in and sending them in a signal which was then processed back into film on the ground. There has been mention elsewhere ("Spaceflight Revolution: NASA Langley From Sputnik to Apollo") that NASA did not get to look in the "imaging box". This is odd because there are a number of documents showing how the "box" works as well as pictures and diagrams and detailed descriptions of processes. What the reference meant was that the original CLASSIFIED camera/imaging box, used in EARTH orbit, was such that no NASA person was allowed to look in it. But NASA actually was able to get Kodak to develop a NONCLASSIFIED device (by going through the right military channels) for the Lunar Orbiter missions. So, NASA was able to look into the device they flew. >Witness statement: >"He (Roger) also had mentioned that >each time the on-board computer analyzing a photo picked up >an anomaly, it triggered a sequence of additional photos that >zoomed in on the target closer and closer. " There was no such device. There were only two fixed lenses. How can you zoom? The spacecraft photo subsystem was designed to provide the capability of automatically performing definite sequences of events, including film exposure, film processing and drying, film transportation, and photo data readout. Each of these automatic sequences was initiated and controlled by a series of commands originating at the Space Flight Operations Facility (on Earth). Sure the orbiter had a computer (enough RAM to hold a whopping 128- 21 bit words!). Problems with picture quality were fixed with Earth sent commands AFTER the images had been sent and developed back at Earth. The on-board imaging system was complicated in that it had to adjust the camera tracking to deal with the fast pass at the bottom of the orbit where all the pictures were taken at. This was called tracking error and they used a velocity/height sensor (an optical system)to adjust for this. It was a fairly sophisticated/complicated method for doing this that did not always work (RFI problems). It was an image tracker which scanned a portion of the image formed by the 24-inch lens and compared circular scans to measure the rate and direction of image motion. The direction information was used to control the spacecraft yaw attitude and the rate information was supplied to the image motion compensation servomechanism (movable platen) and to the exposure interval controller. The primary imaging noise problems were due to the film and the communication system although there were others. >"The clarity and resolution were unlike that of anything I >had seen before or since, and I shudder to think that this >was only the beginnings of the spy-in-the-sky technology that >has evolved since then. " The Apollo spacecraft took high resolution film images (1-2 meters) which were brought back to Earth and did not lose quality in digitizing, transmission and regeneration on Earth as the Lunar Orbiter ones did. >"She explained that the space program had developed many >technologies which at the time had not been declassified or >adapted for commercial use. Declassified? More likely that they were not authorized for commercial use yet. >One of these new developments - >unknown to the general public - was instant replay video, >which would become common later. But in 1969 and 70, only a >handful of people were aware of it. Yes. Fine. >Thus, NASA could switch the Mission >Control picture to a live broadcast of a news reporter >standing next to a full-scale mockup, and while a viewer's >attention was diverted, the real stuff was happening behind >the scenes." Oh Jeez! Yes, real time conspiracy stuff! Keep the finger to the button waiting for the UFO to show up or the glass lunar domes to appear in a picture - how about an obelisk? Come on! >"When I met moon photo researcher Marvin Czarnik in 1995, I >learned that he had helped develop some of the systems >used at NASA. Besides the length of time of instant replay, he >knew that code words like "Alpha" and "Bravo' referred to >special switching stations around the country that "switch" >broadcast reception away from Houston and Mission Control >directly to CIA headquarters in Langley. This was my missing >puzzle piece. I knew then for certain who it was that had the >master list of photographs." What a joke! The "witness" was deducing that NASA Langley was CIA at Langley (like Sparks said). NASA Langley was responsible for the Lunar Orbiter so THEY controlled the list. This switching crap is more confusion from someone who wants to be confused. >"In 1980, another puzzle piece fell into place. A friend had >shown me a special congressional subcommittee report on moon >rocks brought back by the astronauts and a feasibility study on >colonizing the moon. The document was dated 1972 or '73 and >concluded that moon colonization using giant plastic air bubbles >was unrealistic and that we would need to transport air from the >earth. The congressional report concluded that there was plenty >of oxygen on the moon trapped in the rocks. The recommend >solution: pulverize the rocks on a large scale with major >excavations. The oxygen would be stored in underground >caverns and tunnel systems and the debris from these pulverized >rocks dumped into the existing craters. What? It doesn't matter where you dump the debris. Why fill in craters? To make it nice and smooth or somthing?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:52:16 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:04:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:19:39 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>You are avoiding all details of such a proposed hoax. The >>daytime atmosphere is always turbulent, from the ground up to >>many hundreds of feet. >Mr. Deardorff, >I was not aware that you were such an expert in balloons. >I have reconsidered my position with regards to strings (sorry, >but not based on your argument although it was clever) even >being needed at all to allow balloons to maintain there distance >fairly well between each other. James, you need to reconsider your position once again. >You assume that the "UFOs" are being filmed in a turbulent >layer. You are correct that lower levels of atmosphere are >somewhat turbulent. Higher up you will encounter (with some >level of probability) uniform layers of wind going at some >velocity with respect to the ground. Of course there is a >turbulent boundary layer between the two, but that is quickly >crossed. >The scenario is this. Release the balloons. None need to be >attached to each other (although a cluster of three balloons >makes a nice "mother ship"). Each balloon goes upward, maybe >vertically, maybe at a slight angle depending on the lower level >wind. They _all_ will flop around, tossed by slight wind >currents, but they keep going upward. They go up until they hit >the uniform wind layer. As they insert into the wind layer, >their overall velocity is overwhelmingly dominated by the wind, >thus they a lose most of the turbulent levocities imparted prior >to insertion into this layer. As each balloon is inserted into >this layer, it is carried at the same velocity. It may even >still be going up, but the "rapid" velocity in the horizontal >direction is the most noticeable. >The result is a collection of balloons that all seem to be going >in the same direction and keep their spacing fairly well. >All your comments of turbulence and wind shear are fine for low >level balloons, but once they reach the wind layer I am >referring to, it applies only minimally. James, it's nice that you got rid of all those strings you had previously postulated. You are now assuming that: (a) The hypothesized balloons, now buoyant, have risen above the planetary boundary layer (PBL), where small-scale turbulence is lacking. This implies either a shallow PBL extending only a very few hundred feet above the ground, or rather large balloons or both, such that the video shows the orbs in good individual resolution and at the same time over a large expanse of some 80 "balloon" diameters in width. Possible. (b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their rates of rise would all vary a few percent from each other at least, due to their slightly different volumes of inflation. If rising on the average at 8 ft/sec., some would be rising at a speed nearer 7.5 ft/sec., e.g., others at 8.5 ft/sec. Over a minute's time, their vertical displacements would have randomly changed relative positions by some 30 feet or more -- by many balloon diameters. Nothing like that shows up on the video. Hence the witnesses could remark that the objects didn't behave like balloons. So as a believer in the balloon hypothesis, your task is now simpler. Without having to resort to a multitude of strings between balloons, and without worrying how to get no-lift balloons up several hundred feet, all you need do now is inflate and release several hundred buoyant balloons, video-tape them, and show the results of a one-minute video of them. No photo-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Secrecy News -- 05/04/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:51:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:54:27 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/04/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 43 May 4, 2005 ** THE RISE OF CHINA (CRS) ** US MILITARY AND IRAQI CASUALTY STATISTICS (CRS) ** NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN SAUDI ARABIA AND SYRIA ** SPACE SUPPORT TO ARMY OPERATIONS ** ST KITTS RATIFIES COMPREHENSIVE TEST BAN TREATY THE RISE OF CHINA (CRS) In its ascendance as an economic and military power, China is increasingly a subject of both fear and fascination among political leaders and the popular press. "An intimate friend and a hated enemy have always been indispensable to my emotional life," Freud wrote in The Interpretation of Dreams, "and not infrequently ... friend and enemy have coincided in the same person." (Modern Library edition, p. 345). Something similar seems to be true with respect to China, which has simultaneously been the object of ingratiating praise and pre-emptive demonization, as it has compelled the attention of would-be global strategists and others. "China is on a rising path and America welcomes the emergence of a strong and peaceful and prosperous China," President Bush said in 2002 (quoted in the Washington Times today). Yet China is also becoming a major driver for U.S. offensive and defensive military planning. The cover story of the latest Atlantic Monthly, entitled "How We Would Fight China," anticipates a new cold war with the People's Republic. Much of the background that underlies American policy interest in China can be gleaned from several recent reports prepared by the Congressional Research Service. "The Rise of China and Its Effect on Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea: U.S. Policy Choices," April 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32882.pdf "China-U.S. Relations: Current Issues and Implications for U.S. Policy," March 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32804.pdf "China's Economic Conditions," updated April 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB98014.pdf "China-U.S. Trade Issues," updated March 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB91121.pdf "China's Growing Interest in Latin America," April 20, 2005: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45464.pdf US MILITARY AND IRAQI CASUALTY STATISTICS (CRS) U.S. and British government officials often declare insistently that the war against Iraq was "worth it," despite the failure to discover weapons of mass destruction, because the tyranny of Saddam Hussein has been brought to an end. But it is difficult to support this conclusion with a cost- benefit analysis because the costs, which continue to be paid, are often not reported and may be unknown. In particular, "the Department of Defense does not publicly release numbers on Iraqi civilian deaths, Iraqi security forces deaths, or medical evacuations of U.S. military personnel outside of Iraq," as noted in a new report from the Congressional Research Service. The CRS report therefore presents a range of estimates, of varying degrees of reliability, to help fill that information void. See "U.S. Military and Iraqi Casualty Statistics: Additional Numbers and Explanations," April 26, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22126.pdf Congress earmarked $20 million for Iraqi civilians who suffered losses as a result of the Iraq war in the final House-Senate conference agreement on emergency supplemental appropriations for FY 2005 (H.R. 1268, section 2108). That financial assistance is to be designated the "Marla Ruzicka Iraqi War Victims Fund," in memory of aid worker Marla Ruzicka who died in a car bomb attack on April 16 and who "inspired the creation of this program and a similar program in Afghanistan," the conference report stated. NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN SAUDI ARABIA AND SYRIA Scientists in Saudi Arabia, like those in many other non-nuclear weapons states, have demonstrated an interest in various aspects of nuclear science and technology. Independent researcher Mark Gorwitz recently compiled a bibliography of Saudi nuclear research publications, culled from journal articles and conference proceedings. Cumulatively they tell a story to those who know how to read them. Most of the studies are unexceptionable forays into nuclear physics, nuclear reactor safety, and so forth. Slightly more surprising are a few papers on nuclear weapons effects. See "Saudi Arabian Nuclear Science Bibliography: Open Literature Citations" by Mark Gorwitz, May 2005: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/saudi/biblio.pdf Mr. Gorwitz performed a similar bibliographical exercise on Syrian nuclear research. See "Syrian Nuclear Science Bibliography: Open Literature Citations," May 2005: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/syria/biblio.pdf SPACE SUPPORT TO ARMY OPERATIONS The role of space technology in supporting U.S. military operations is discussed on an unclassified basis in a new Army field manual. In short: "The Army is critically dependent on space capabilities to enable and enhance land warfare. Virtually every Army operation uses space capabilities to some degree. Today, we use space largely for its ability to enhance the effectiveness of our combat forces. We can communicate; navigate; target, find, and fix the enemy; anticipate weather; and protect our forces based on combat and support assets available from space. We also strive to control space so adversaries cannot overcome our asymmetrical advantages in space." See "Space Support to Army Operations," Field Manual (FM) 3-14, May 2005 (130 page, 5 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-14.pdf ST KITTS RATIFIES COMPREHENSIVE TEST BAN TREATY The Carribean island nation of St. Kitts and Nevis last week ratified the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) that bars nuclear explosive testing, becoming the 121st country to do so. The United States is not among them. The two islands that together make up St. Kitts and Nevis are about one and a half times the size of Washington, DC, according to the CIA World Factbook. The CIA also notes that Nevis is seeking independence from St. Kitts -- which would create the possibility of an additional ratification of the CTBT. See "Saint Kitts and Nevis ratifies Comprehensive Nuclear-Test- Ban Treaty," CTBT Organization news release, May 3: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/05/ctbt050305.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:59:17 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >Sigh, Peter, >>>>I guess we know why you're a pelicanist, and not a detective, >>>Peter. Thank God; your capacity for actual harm to actual human >>>beings is thereby considerably reduced. >>Meaningless drivel >We are all relieved that you're a librarian and not a cop for a >simple reason which more objective observers than you will see >as obvious and cogent. As you have demonstrated, you prefer not >to listen to what witnesses are actually saying, since what >you're saying about what they said is always of more >significance to you, and finally all that matters. Arguably, >that could make you a good novelist, an occupation where >spinning fantasy from fact is a necessary virtue, but it would >not make you a good police officer. Or, given your penchant for >rewriting UFO history in order to advance a weak argument, a >good historian, either. >>>You're confusing - conveniently, I must say, and in the usual >>>have- it-both-ways fashion of the pelicanist - Webb's dismissal >>>of the significance of Barney Hill's confused testimony with the >>>significance of what Hill seems to have been trying to say, >>>which was that he had memories a very close encounter with >>>aliens inconsistent both with his conscious memories and with >>>the consciously recalled time line. The significance of Webb's >>>dismissal speaks right to the point: that pelicanist doctrine >>>notwithstanding, ufologists and witnesses had no concept of >>>missing time in 1961. >>The idea of missing time came with suggests from Hohmann and >>Jackson in 1962, so it wasn't there in 1961 which is what I >>said. >Missing time was, as I have several times remarked, with >appropriate quote to match, there from the beginning, as the >Hills's words to Walt Webb indicate. No one had to place the >idea in their heads, and your continuing insistence to the >contrary - putting your own words into the Hills's mouths, in >effect - does not alter that simple fact. It only demonstrates >that to you conviction matters more than evidence. >>>In 1965, looking back on his 1961 investigation, Webb - by the >>>way, one of the finest field investigators American ufology has >>>ever produced - wrote, "When I met the Hills after their >>>experience in the White Mountains, Barney appeared to be deeply >>>concerned by the 'leader' in the UFO (first encountered) and by >>>his failure to recall events immediately after watching this >>>figure. Both witnesses were perplexed that they had no >>>conscious recollection of events between the odd beeping sounds >>>nor of the route they traveled in that interval." >>Yes by 1965 the idea of missing time had been introduced, by, as >>I said before, other ufologists >Actually, the Hills introduced the idea to ufologists (first, in >their interview with Walt Webb), as everybody but you appears to >have grasped by now. >Beyond that, missing time seems to have been there in some pre- >Hill cases but was (understandably, given the limitations of >what ufologists knew back then) unrecognized and unremarked >upon. In other words, missing time was there waiting to be >found. Ufologists had nothing to do with it beyond, at last, >finding it. Are you going to tell us next that ufologists >invented daylight discs? Cloud cigars? E-M effects? I know that >pelicanists are attracted to what amounts to magical thinking >about social and psychological processes, but I trust you will >spare us this much. >>>Now, folks, who you gonna believe: a bright, accomplished >>>investigator who actually spoke with the Hills after their >>>initial 1961 report - or Peter Rogerson? Who is the authority >>>here? Yes, those are rhetorical questions. >>That's the same investigator you were saying just didn't get it >>about the missing time isn't it. >Yup, finally! At least you catch my point - that even the >brightest, most informed ufologists (e.g., Webb) of the period >did not recognize the notion of missing memory in UFO cases. >Now, here's the question: >Why are we even _talking_ about this? Missing time, whatever its >explanation, has been repeatedly demonstrated over the decades >as an aspect of the abduction phenomenon, however explained. It >is pointless and absurd to pretend that only the Hills had ever >had this experience (however explained). Maybe if they alone >spoke of it and it was never heard of again anywhere, this >discussion would have some reason to exist. Since they aren't >alone, this exchange is as urgently needed as a debate on pin- > top-dancing angels. >Perhaps, Peter, you have more time on your hands than I do (I am >writing a book which, as always, I hope will advance our >knowledge and thinking a little bit more); or maybe, for >psychosocial reasons perhaps unknown even to yourself, you have >an intellectually fatal attraction to dubious-to- hopeless >points of view. Or maybe, you're just being disingenuous, though >somehow, knowing you as I do, I doubt it. >Here's a small suggestion: If you sincerely desire to explain >the abduction phenomenon (I know I do; I hope we have at least >that much in common), then you'd better deal with what witnesses >tell us, in other words the actual phenomenon (whatever its >ultimate nature) that witnesses experience and report. We aren't >interested in the abduction phenomenon that exists only in Peter >Rogerson's imagination. And if you still don't understand why >the construction of strawmen to be knocked down is a very bad, >self-defeating, and profoundly anti-scientific practice, may I >urge you to reread - or read for the first time - David J. >Hufford's The Terror That Comes in the Night, a book-length >inquiry into the dangers of the course you're pursuing? >Or let me put it this way, rather more bluntly: >Anybody who claims to be addressing the abduction phenomenon and >refuses to acknowledge one of its most consistent features, >repeatedly demonstrated over time and space, is not worth my >time. Or any serious person's. >Gently and patiently as I can be under the circumstances, Jerry, Just read page p.63 of the Dell edition of The Interrupted Journey And while they (Hohmann, Jackson and Macdonald) were here were they mentally reconstructing the whole trip. One of them said "What took you so long to get home...you went this distance.", etc. There is a conversation about seeing the moon on the ground. Then Fuller has Barney being shaken by realising that at the rate of speed I always travel they should have arrived home 2 hours or so earlier. That, according to Fuller is where the 2 missing hours comes in, not a momentary blocking out of some fearful sight in the field. Note that that two hours is based on Barney's usual rate of travel. Thus if they went slower than usual, stopped longer than they estimated, got lost, fell alseep at one of their stops or something, a good portion of that 2 hours would be accounted
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:39:17 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:02:35 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Yturria From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:40:14 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage <snip> >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >>With Santiago's permission, the new footage will be available on >>Monday at: >>www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico1 <snip> >Until every video of such alleged UFO flotillas over Mexico can >be viewed, un-edited, by others so they can be evaluted based on >the facts and on their own merits independent of other similar >videos, we cannot rule out all other reasonable or probable >explanations such as balloons or birds. >I look forward to the opportunity of closely studying the >complete new video footage which will soon be made available to >all. Hello Nick, I must give you credit on this one. That's the attitude, review the evidences, facts and testimonials, study every piece of footage and analyze every element. Make calculations and meassures and consider important issues as climate, wind etc. Interview experts in aeronautics as well as advertisement flying devices showing the videos to know their professional opinions. Then and here's the most challenging part: Make a recreation with balloons for comparison and evaluation and at the same time film birds formations. Then study their behavior in the sky and reach a conclusion based in facts and evidences. This proposals is what we expect to try to understand what these things in the sky are. You know Nick there is a certain individual that does the opposite and just speaks-speaks-speaks claiming the same thing over and over without presenting or contributing any substantial evidence, test or solid proof to sustain his allegations. We call him "The Balloon Man" and you know very well who he is. Well, his claims mean nothing-zero-nada. As long as this person don't provide a legitimate recreation with actual balloons, ( wich you and me know very well will never-ever do ) most required evidence then the "Balloon Man" is just a fraud himself. We are sick and tired of these opportunists that infiltrate the ufologic community from time to time trying to make their own scenario stealing the lights of those who dedicated most of their lives to the serious and professional research. I must warn our collagues to be aware of charlatans like this one, perfect example of cheap demagogy who just talks and talks like a failed preacher to an empty audience. Enough for these ufology parasites. Nick I'm offering you to send you an original copy of all the UFO fleets videos from Mexico for your own study. Take your time and do your best evaluation as I know you will and at the end give us your judgment and conclusions. Even if we don't get an agreement your position will be welcome. You know my email and I'm ready to send you the materials. Before concluding and regarding the 1951 UFO incident in Mexico you mentioned, you are right and took place. There must be a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:07:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:04:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Smith >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:49:48 -1000 >Subject: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars >I hope you excuse me for promoting my forthcoming >summer courses in exopolitics that start in the week of >May 16. All I can say is WOW! >I think it very plausible that visiting ETs would have >known of the forthcoming test and arranged for a diplomatic >meeting with President Eisenhower to ask for an abandonment >of thermonuclear weapons testing. Cool. These aliens sure are nice folk. I would have thought they would have mind controlled the Administration or at least blasted a few aircraft to show they mean business. Oh yes, they are too incompetent for that. They keep crashing (their spacecraft) all the time like drunken sailors. >The course systematically examines data from >whistleblowers, witnesses, contactees/abductees, independent >archeologists, remote viewing, and, yes, 'channeling to provide >students some exposure to the main data circulating in the >field. I get good luck having my questions answered using my Magic Eight Ball although I have heard dowsing and Ouija boards are effective. EVP can be used to contact Carl Sagan and even President Eisenhower, although he is rather busy recently with golfing with astral Pleiadians, so I just get his answering machine. >The second course is "Citizen Diplomacy with >Extraterrestrials" which examines the kinds of issues >that private citizens have when establishing >communications and interactions with visiting >extraterrestrial races. A definite issue is how to keep the aliens from making you drop your trousers since they seem so prone to anal yzing people against their will. >Information about the "Citizen Diplomacy" seminars >which are held in Hawaii and include dolphin swims is >available at:.... Uh, are dolphins aliens? Or do aliens like dolphins? Whats this about dolphins? >Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize >with the various issues concerning exopolitics and >'galactic diplomacy' through courses and seminars similar >to those I'm conducting, will be best placed to deal with >the challenges that lie ahead as we move into an era of >open disclosure of visiting extraterrestrial races.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:16:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:06:14 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:03:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:29:27 -0300 >>Subject: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>Santiago Yturria Garza has been kind enough to send me some >>segments of the new 'flotillas', taped over Mexico, after those >>released by Jaime Maussan at the Laughlin UFO Conference. >>At least one of the new 'flotillas' recorded had an amazing >>pattern and suggests intelligent behavior that defies simple >>explanation. The others are also quite interesting. >>The attempt to discredit all the 'flotillas' as ballons or birds >>makes no sense and is at great risk with the latest footage. To >>me, there is a phenomena going on in Mexico that cannot be >>easily explained away. >I am afraid that you and your fellow Mexican UFO researchers are >being made fools of with sometimes sophisticated and complex >balloon releases. And the sad thing is that it is likely >hometown boys who are doing this so it can't be blamed on the >Gringos. Sure they are impressive and beautiful to watch, but >they can easily be explained as balloons. >Other Mexican "UFO" videos with slow moving objects almost >always look/act like balloons. The "character" shaped wormy >"UFOs" are simply either sheathed of lightweight material with >balloons on the inside or the sheath IS the balloon. Kyle King sent me a response to my post but couldn't get it on the List for some reason so here it is below: "Another explanation for the "worm" objects is the balloon "rope", where many balloons are tied together in a "braid" type pattern. These are typically used as arches or architectural decor for big events. Once aloft, however, the untethered ends flip and flop in the breeze, providing a very intriguing, but ultimately mundane, sight in the sky. Besides these amateurish efforts, Robles Gil has attempted to foist faked saucer images and backlit "through the glass" faked images. You throw enough crap against the wall, something's bound to stick. This does nothing however to mitigate the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Alien Notion From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:14:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:14:40 -0400 Subject: Alien Notion Source: Metro Silicon Valley - San Jose, California http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/05.04.05/alleys-0518.html May 4th 2005 Silicon Alleys Alien Notion By Gary Singh Besides being a successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist, Jacques Vallee has researched the UFO phenomenon perhaps more than any other person currently alive. He has written almost a dozen books on ufology, and he was the real-life model for the French UFO scientist in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Vallee lives in San Francisco, but he recently infiltrated Silicon Valley to summarize his four decades of research in a public presentation at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto. The reason Vallee has irked so many ardent UFO believers for decades is that he doesn't believe UFOs are nuts-and-bolts machines from outer space or spinning silver disks operated by aliens from another universe. Crudely simplified, he was the first scientist to suggest that UFO experiences are in fact interactions with interdimensional beings that have always existed among us=97invisible hands toying with human society from a different level of consciousness. It's not just a physical phenomenon. It's a sociological, spiritual and psychic experience all wrapped up into one. Vallee also suggested in several books that many of these so- called "abduction" tales are the result of manipulation, either by the government or the interdimensional beings themselves. Even though his work was documented in former Metro scribe Jonathan Vankin's 80 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time, Vallee has commanded a huge amount of respect over the years, even from UFO debunkers. As he's been quoted everywhere, "The UFO Phenomenon exists. It has been with us throughout history. It is physical in nature, and it remains unexplained in terms of contemporary science. It represents a level of consciousness that we have not yet recognized, and which is able to manipulate dimensions beyond time and space as we understand them. It affects our own consciousness in ways that we do not grasp fully, and it generally behaves as a control system." He has also theorized that UFO experiences echo those of traditional contact with nonhuman consciousness in the form of elves, fairies or demons throughout several cultures for millennia. Since Vallee has spent decades filtering out the lunatic fringe on this matter, he didn't want any advance press about his lecture, and I went along with that. He understandably didn't want kooks with preconceived conclusions showing up and turning the whole presentation into a circus. Instead, he wanted to keep the lecture purely a scientific one. So it only makes sense that the event was hosted by the Foundation for Mind-Being Research (FMBR), a 25-year-old Silicon Valley-based organization of scientists, engineers, spiritualists, artists, philosophers, psychics and psychologists devoted to establishing consciousness studies as a bona fide science. One of FMBR's main principles is that the four- dimensional space-time world of ordinary human experience may be inadequate to accommodate the physics of the mind sciences. Vallee's research throughout the last four decades intertwines with that theory. "This lecture was an experiment," he explained via email afterward. "I am staying away from the media and public presentations because the field has become so polarized between different ideologies that anything I would say as a scientist would be lost in the noise. The FMBR group is unique because it is open-minded and understands the nature of research. Thus it provided an opportunity to test my current conclusions about the phenomenon before a responsive, yet critical audience." In the presentation, he explained that the entire UFO discourse has degenerated into a confrontational and polarized situation between the hard-core skeptics and the extraterrestrial believers, and we need new radical hypotheses. So Vallee and others are going back underground and returning to the days of the Invisible College, the title of his 1975 book about a group of scientists researching UFOs while keeping their names and activities out of the press. "The phenomenon presents great opportunities to learn about the world and human nature," he explained. "I continue to do research, but I do it with my own resources, in communication with a small network of scientists and investigators around the world. Good progress can be done this way, in an environment of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:35:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:17:23 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>>Fear >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>>>Fear >>>I don't think the Hill case was that novel or out of the >>>ordinary in 1961. It has been argued that abductions were >>>only noted in obscure UFO magazines unavailable to the >>>Hills, yet if we look at the investigation of their case, >>>they had long discussions with UFO experts within weeks of >>>their encounter experience. From them they would have >>>picked up plenty of information about current UFO >>>research and theories. >>No, they wouldn't have. That material just wasn't available. >>You simply don't know what you're talking about. Until you >>do, a wise course of action, it seems to me, would be to >>choose to engage only in those disucssions in which you >>have something to contribute. >Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology it is >significant that the only major account of it is by a popular >journalist and author. Where are the detailed investigations >and reports by the likes of Keyhoe, Hynek or Clark? Who decided that the Hill case "is the most important ufology?" I suppose Nigel Watson did in order to set up his straw-man argument that follows. >>>It should also be noted that throughout the 1950s the >>>contactee literature and science fiction on TV and in >>>films often contained alien encounters and abductions. >What has Arnold and pre-SF magazines got to do with the Hill >case? Their encounter was in 1961, there had already been a >decade of contactee literature, UFO reports in the newspapers >and many SF films about alien invasions and abduction. Perhaps Nigel Watson can list for us the "many" SF films about alien abductions. In particular, I would appreciate him listing the films with similarity of details to the Hill abduction, such as missing time, the described medical prodedures, amnesia, etc. >>And by the way, taking abductions off the table, where is the >>evidence that persons who are not emotionally disturbed are >>subject to vivid science-fiction fantasies which they are >>deluded into believing really happened? If this is a >>recognized category of nonpathological mental malfunction >>and exists outside the abduction arena, it has escaped me. >>I've never heard of it, and I suspect nobody else has, either. >>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not >>mentally ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based >>hallucinations >>which they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think >>so. >Philip K. Dick for one. Case closed. Therefore the Hills must have suffered SF-based hallucinations which they confused with real events. >Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned >argument. Where's the reasoned argument from Nigel Watson? All I see are the usual, hand-waving, untestable arguments that the Hills _must_ have been influenced by the SF literature/movies and somehow confabulated the whole thing. >On a more important and final point where is the objective, >empirical evidence for the Hill abduction? Where's the objective, empirical evidence that it didn't happen? There are actually details in the Hill account plus some physical evidence that are rather difficult to explain away as mere fantasy, whether SF-induced or otherwise. Pease Air Force Base did pick up a UFO at the same time and location that the Hills claimed. There were unexplained bright spots on the trunk of the car that affected a compass. Both the Hills' watches stopped running after the experience. Barney Hill had an unexplained circle of warts in his groin area where under hypnosis he remembered them carrying out some sort of medical procedure. Betty Hill described a medical procedure, a "pregnancy test" that sounds remarkably similar to modern-day amniocentesis. Skeptics correctly point out that amniocentesis predated the Hill case, but fail to note the procedure was experimental and used only by a few medical researchers. It did not become a commonplace obstetrical procedure until years after the Hill case. Another suggestion is that the procedure wasn't amniocentesis but egg extraction, now commonly done for in vitro fertilization, but totally without precedent back in 1961. Now how many Sci-Fi films or stories depicted amniocentesis or in vitro fertilization procedures before 1961? Perhaps Nigel Watson can list these as well. Or maybe we are supposed to believe that Betty Hill, in addition to being a malleable SF fanatic, was also plugged into the esoteric medical research literature of the time and thus incorporated amniocentesis into her abduction fantasy. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but how likely is it? There is also, of course, the controversal Hill "star map," perhaps the most complete treatment of which was in a special 1976 edition of Astronomy magazine. Although skeptics like Carl Sagan retorted that the pattern match to our local stellar neighborhood with the Zeta Reticuli dual star system being the home base was more fanciful than real, David Saunders responded that Sagan's argument was qualitative, when it should have been quantitative. Saunders, an expert statistician who had been on the Condon commission, then gave statistical argument that the odds of a match between the Hill map and the local neighborhood of sun-like stars was only one in a thousand or less of happening by chance. Astronomy student Michael Peck then did another statistical analysis of correlation coefficients between X and Y coordinates of the star map and the true Zeta Reticuli-centered neighborhood. Peck got correlation coefficents greater than 0.9 for both X and Y coordinates. Perfect correlation would have been 1.0. Randomly drawn dots would be expected to have correlation coefficients near 0. Just to check this, Peck did sample runs with such random dots and got X and Y correlation coefficents less than 0.1, as expected. Peck concluded that the degree of resemblance between the two maps was statistically very high. To emphasize the point, he also calculated the probability that 15 random dots (the Hill map had 15 stars on it besides the Sun) would create an equal level of correlation strictly by chance. The number he got was only one in 10^15, about one trillion times less probable than Saunders statistical estimate. There are a number of interesting details of the Hill map that also strongly suggest that the similarity would not be a chance event. Sun-like stars connected by lines, supposedly representing "trade routes" or exploration routes, lie practically in a plane, and would be the most efficient way to explore the local neighborhood of Sun-like stars. The Zeta Reticuli system, supposedly the base of the star pattern, is extremely rare, a pair of stars almost exactly like the sun separated by a scant 0.15 light years. As Stan Friedman and others have pointed out, it is not hard to imagine how the closeness of the two stars would act as a tremendous incentive to a civilization arising from one of the stars to develop interstellar travel. The Zeta Reticuli pair are also older stars than our Sun by approximately a billion years or more, at least consistent with an older, more advanced civilization having evolved there and then branched out. The point is the Hill map does constitute "objective, empirical evidence" that can be analyzed scientifically. While the map does not definitively prove the Hill abduction occurred, as one section of the Astronomy magazine noted, "not everything can be written off as coincidence or hallucination." Not even the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 03:39:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:23:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Hebert >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:47:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:59:58 -0700 >>Subject: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >Good and evil depends on perspective in this matter. Aliens may >think it good to completely control humans, harvest their organs >or genes, whatever. They may think humans evil since they >destroy their world and perform alien autopsies and such. <snip> If I may add my two cents worth... I spent many years engaged in reflection and discussion about this topic. Below is one of the articles I wrote, years ago, to express my views: Why Goes There There are many theories about which "aliens" are our enemies and which ones are here to "save" us. How can we know who goes there? If our own government has mind manipulation programs (if you got psychology, you got mind manipulation), it seems logical that other species - especially if they are intellectually advanced - would have the same programs somewhere along their evolution. Psychology is the study of the mind (thinking processes). An advanced culture that would ignore this aspect of critter nature would be severely retarded. Since it is more logical to assume intellectually advanced beings from wherever have some form of psychological studies as a part of their agendas than to assume they do not, the next question is HOW they might use the information gleaned from their psychological studies. In all probability, they would learn everything they could about human nature long before attempting to establish any kinds of relations with humans. One of the first things "visitors" might notice about this planet is the combative tendencies of it's human inhabitants. Those little nuclear blasts here and there are a dead giveaway. I seriously doubt "they" would underestimate the fearful and destructive nature of the human species. With this in mind, I simply cannot envision some innocent space critter being surprised should he/she/it encounter a missile or laser fired in their direction on their way here to "save us". This would probably give them a clue that landing on the White House lawn unannounced and uninvited is not a good idea. Friends knock, intruders intrude. If humans are intelligent enough to understand the importance of diplomatic relations and common courtesies, then advanced beings from wherever must surely have enough sense to figure it out too. Whether "they" choose to respect our cultural and political protocols depends on their agendas and motivations for being here in the first place. If "they" come in peace, abducting citizens of this planet is not the way to convince us of "their" peaceful intentions. Establishing contact by violating regional air spaces is probably no more tolerated on their home planet (or wherever) than it is here. This may make it harder for earth governments to know when they are being bombed and when it is just some space tourist coming for a visit. It's usually wiser to phone ahead before dropping in. When it comes to national defense (on earth and in space), I am more inclined to trust the armed services of my elected government than some critters cruising around in their RV's, abducting humans here and there (souvenirs?) and telling us they are here to "save us". I can think of a dozen more reasonable ways to go about establishing contact with a warlike species than barging in and possibly triggering a nuclear war due to a mere misidentification of incoming blips on a radar screen. If "they" are our friends, then they must ACT like friends and respect our cultural mores, our insane but realistic fears of the unknown and surprise nuclear attack. Furthermore, they must demonstrate their willingness to extend and honor mutual diplomatic courtesies and protocol. This is not too much to ask. No matter how many theories we may conjure about which ones are the "good aliens" and which ones are "bad", the bottom line is we _do_not_ know. It is wiser, therefore, to proceed with extreme caution in _all_ encounters and negotiations with beings of unknown origins and intentions. We have much more to lose by accepting all we are told because we 'want' to believe than by remaining curious yet cautious. *************** I wrote another article of a similar nature which can still be found at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: More Kaku - Cammack From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:44:16 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:26:04 -0400 Subject: Re: More Kaku - Cammack >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:27:01 -0400 >Subject: Re: More Kaku >>From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:55:02 +0200 >>Subject: More Kaku ><snip> >>In a Hardtalk Extra interview broadcast on Friday 22 April >>2005, Gavin Esler spoke to theoretical physicist Michio Kaku >>about the fate of planet earth. >>Click here to watch the full interview: >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/05/hardtalk/kaku22apr.ram >>We know how difficult it is for the US government and its allies >>to organise an exit strategy from Iraq. >>So imagine how difficult it would be to organise an exit >>strategy from planet earth? >>It sounds like science fiction, but it isn't. >>The universe which scientists tell us began with a 'Big Bang' >>looks likely to end with a 'Big Freeze'. >>This is bad news for intelligent life forms. >>Gavin Esler talks to one of the world's leading experts in >>theoretical physics. He hears about some possible means of >>escape from our doomed planet earth. <snip> >So let us continue to concern ourselves >with our place and purpose in this vast universe and our >relationship to the rest of creation, including UFOs and >possible ETs, than to worry about the latest threats to Earth by >scientists which, as their past threats have proven to be more >science fiction than science fact. Nick, My interest in Kaku relates more to his theories of multiple universes (rolled up and sitting next to our own, or in various nearby 'bubbles', etc). It seems to me that has some relevance to UFOs, as possble trans-universe objects. That said, its just a pleasure listening to him talk about our place in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:55:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:27:22 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Smith >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:19:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:40:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>Yes, I know and stated this. You need to ask him why he omitted >>the Apollo 12 data in the 1991 paper. I doubt it was due to peer >>pressure. There is likely a good rationale. >Freeman considered the readings from the Apollo 12 site to be >important enough to mention in the abstract of the original >paper. Peer pressure or not, there is no good excuse for simply >dropping something without explanation that was important enough
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 5 Geneseo Illinois Case? From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:30:37 -0400 Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO with a balcony. The text says: "Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, Japanese like aliens who abduct him.."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Filer's Files #19 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:42:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:17:20 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #19 - 2005 Filer's Files #19 =96 2005 Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International May 4, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. New Planet photographed [Image] The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent a factual UFO sighting Articles this week include: Planet photographed around distant sun Mars =96 Mount Rushmore found. UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Indiana, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Texas, and Washington. Sightings were also reported in Australia, Argentina, Canada, France, and South Africa. Letter from an Medical Doctor in Iraq. Planet photographed around distant sun European and American scientists say they have photographed a planet outside the Solar System for the first time. The European Southern Observatory group said the red image is the first direct shot of a planet around another star. The planet, known as 2M1207b, is about five times the size of Jupiter and is orbiting at a distance nearly twice as far as Neptune is from our Sun. The parent star and planet are more than 200 light- years away near the southern constellation of Hydra. There has been a lot of competition among astronomers to secure the first direct picture of an exoplanet. When the ESO group first released the picture last September there was doubt over whether the star and planet were gravitationally bound. But follow-up images taken at the Very Large Telescope facility in Chile show the two objects are moving together. "Our new images are quite convincing," said Gael Chauvin, an Eso astronomer. "This really is a planet - the first planet that has ever been imaged outside of our Solar System," he added. It is extremely difficult for current technology to detect exoplanets - let alone get a clear shot of one. All of the 130 or so exoplanets so far discovered have been found using indirect methods - looking for changes in the properties of stars (their brightness or way they move) that can be explained only by the presence of a planet. Now we have a direct observation, the Eso team says. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4501323.stm Minotaur rocket successfully launches VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, CALIF. The Orbital Sciences Minotaur Rocket was successfully launched on April 11, 2005, by the1st Air and Space Test Squadron, the Minotaur carried the XSS-11 self-maneuvering, micro-satellite into orbit for the Air Force Research Laboratory. The self-maneuvering, micro-satellite, was launched into polar orbit. The 220-pound satellite is designed to further explore, demonstrate and flight-qualify micro- satellite technologies. [Image] The Minotaur is a comparatively low-cost launch vehicle with a 100-percent success rate. When the XSS-11 reaches orbit, it will rendezvous with a resident space object and perform extended proximity operations including standoff inspection and circumnavigation, which help Air Force Research Laboratory officials test the limits of today's technology. Editor's Note: Some recent UFO reports may be observations of this new satellite. Mars seems to have a Mount Rushmore [Image] Recent European Space Agency images of Hale Crater on Mars appear to show a series of faces similar to the four Presidents on Mount Rushmore. It should be noted that the Mars Express is orbiting at high altitude and it is difficult to pick out cultural features from the satellite. Similar satellite orbits above Earth would determine that there is no life on Earth. Each time the Mars ground features are enhanced there tends to be jpg-compression of the texture image causing some distortion. It is quite apparent the images are being manipulated, smudged and distorted. The end result is that it is very difficult to determine if these cultural features really do exist on Mars. However, careful analysis appears to show faces carved in the rock inside Hale crater. One face can be explained as chance, but not multiple faces. I'm not discussing the farmland pattern that may result from jpg-artifacts, stereo processing and digitization of the image. The face appears to be of a bearded man. Many mountains appear to have faces carved into them with eyes, nose, mouth, beard and headdress. They are often very long faces made with multiple views. That is the face, and often several can be seen from almost any direction of approach. Look at the photo from various directions and several faces become apparent on a 19 inch monitor. Caution these images are of very low quality. [Image] http://berlinadmin.dlr.de/Missions/express/first/24.11.2004_eng.shtml Below center appears to be the small face with a head dress similar to those worn by Egyptian Pharaohs. [Image] Arizona Sighting Report, SEDONA =96 The witness at 3:13 PM, spotted an unusual egg-shaped object flying on March 27, 2005. He states, "I was looking directly east and I noticed a 30 to 40 foot long egg that had no apparent wings or tail." It first caught my eye because of its motion and its lack of reflectivity. Conventional jet traffic at 30 to 40,000 feet were leaving dramatic, growing contrails but this object was flat white and did not appear to reflect much sunlight. It was flying at about 7,500 feet and was about four miles away above Oak Creek Canyon. I watched it fly a straight trajectory (about 35 degrees) from east-to-north before it disappeared. It covered 50 to 60 miles in 30 seconds. Toward the end of the 30 or seconds, the object seemed to squirt forward and instantly resume its normally constant speed. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com California flying triangle flies by skyscrapers LOS ANGELES =96 A silent object glided through the skyscrapers in downtown LA, parallel to the 4th floor of these buildings on April 20, 2005, at 1 PM. The witness states, "I am a college educated, Vice President of a corporation and the most normal and skeptical person I know. I was by the downtown courthouse in my car, when what appeared to be a stealth bomber flew in front of me and flew off through the buildings. It was triangular shaped, silver colored, flew silently and very low. I would have completely missed it if I weren't looking in its exact direction. Helicopters don't even fly this low within the city. It was parallel to the 4-5th floor of the sky rise buildings. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Colorado triangle and cattle mutilations LOVELAND -- While sitting in the hot tub on April 20, 2005, at 9 PM, I was looking up for satellites and noticed a triangle shaped object moving north about 500 feet high. It was a quiet night and the tub jets were not on. The object was totally quiet. It went over the top of the house and was gone. One year ago or so I saw a similar black triangle much closer while sitting in the hot tub with my 14 year old son. We both saw this object. The bottom had 10 black circles in a triangle pattern. This object was only 100 feet up or so and was completely silent. We both saw it for about 10 seconds as it moved north. The object moved slowly say 50 mph. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com SAN LUIS VALLEY-- After a seven year hiatus away from San Luis Valley (SLV), apparently the mysterious cattle surgeons are back. Although rumors of other cases have circulated over the last few years, no official reports of unusual livestock deaths have been filed until this past Friday. A rancher reported a head of mutilated livestock found south of Monti Vista, near the Wildlife Refuge. Another case may have occurred last month near Jaroso, when a motorist chased an "'orange light" and returned to the site two days later and found what he described as "a mutilated cow." I was told by the Sheriff of Conejos County of another SLV case in December 2001, that featured a landed object and bright "blue and red lights" but the witness refused to officially report the mutilated cow found in the field where the lights were seen the night prior. Since 2000 over 2000 cases have been reported in South America. DEL NORTE The Rio Grande Sheriff's Office is investigating a cattle mutilation discovered in the county Friday morning. Rio Grande County Sergeant Jon Gonzales said the sheriff's office received the report on the mutilation, which was found in a field off County Road 29, at 9:57 a.m. Friday. "The facial area of the cow was removed from the back of the jaw to the front of the nose by the eye line," Gonzales said. Gonzales said the cut seemed precise, but there was a small amount of blood. Gonzales said a person convicted of the mutilation could face cruelty to animal and trespassing charges. Valley Courier Saturday April 23, 2005 thanks to Christopher O'brien, Author of: The Mysterious Valley: http://tmv.us visit the land of the Maya: http://mayasites.com Connecticut oblong oval craft seen ORANGE =96 The witness saw an oblong oval craft larger than a blimp at 10:30 PM, flying extremely low with a streak of colored lights about the length of a football field on April 9, 2005. The object flew directly over our house and my parents house down the road at tree line level making a huge rumbling noise . It was a massive craft, oblong and oval in shape, bigger than a blimp. It made a huge constant loud rumbling noise as it passed by slowly. The lights were amazing with a white and green dot on top with a long streak of lights along what looked to be the bottom or side. The long streak had to be close to 100 yards in length and the streaks changed color periodically from white to red and to blue. I did capture the craft on video, with the noise over our house, but the video does not do it justice. As the craft moved overhead, every sensor light we have around our house went off and continued to for about 1/2 hour afterwards. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Florida flashing lights around moon Pompano Beach =96 On a perfectly clear night April 11, 2005, at 10 PM, the moon was fully illuminated with a very bright crescent. The sun light that was hitting the moon allowed me to see the entire moon's shape in the northwest horizon. On the north side of the moon I could see 4-5 very faint lights that appeared to flash, move erratically and change color. My vision is excellent and I'm not sure if this was an atmospheric phenomenon but I would guess anyone staring at the moon tonight would easily see what I saw. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com http://www.stardate.org/nightsky/moon/ Indiana series of lighted disks spotted LAWRENCEBURG =96 The witness has seen many images between Cincinnati, Ohio and Indiana beginning in April 2005. They are shaped like ovals and slightly pointed on each side. He states, "I was driving home on Route 275 south, in the middle of the night, and I looked up into the sky and could see a craft hovering above me with different colored flashing lights going around the bottom. There were more lights to the right and lights as far as I could see, and none seemed to be moving except for the rotating lights at the bottom. There were similar objects 100 feet apart from each other arranged in a straight line all with rotating colored lights. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com BLOOMINGTON -- Mark writes: After we taped the cigar shaped object behind the farm on April 3, 2005, after midnight, we moved to the front. We sat there for 25 minutes and photographed what looks like a helicopter on camera, but it changed shape to something else. - Alice Evans, John Tosti and I chased the object, but ended up losing it. We went back to the farm and sat there for some time again. I kept my camera running in Nightshot "infra-red" and just moved it around. Then, to the west I saw a plane and decided to tape it. The camera was on the hood of the van, and off to the left. "I didn't notice this at the time but object came in fast, then descended. We came back to our place. I wanted to see the cigar shaped craft and the morphing chopper, to end of the tape, and noticed the real fast object. In the clip I slowed it down many times and you can actually see it come from the south then drop. Video footage and photos are =A9 2005 Mark Evans http://JohnTostiStory.com Thanks to Brian Vike [Image] http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D26 08 Illinois large fireball meteor EL PASO -- While driving home, 2:10 AM, on April 10, 2005, after a night out with some friends I witnessed a meteor entering the Earth's atmosphere for about 4 seconds. While driving I noticed a large neon green light, with a short teardrop tail, traveling at an obviously high rate of speed descending on a near vertical path. There was a thin layer of clouds that the meteor appeared to penetrate and a large flash of light, as the meteor then exploded into numerous and smaller "shooting stars". As the meteoroids continued to descend they all winked out prior to striking the ground. Although I feel this sighting is of a natural origin, last fall I witnessed three pale orange balls of light in the northwestern sky that appeared to be slightly ascending that slowly disappeared. The lights were the size of a dime held at arm's length. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Louisiana flying triangle photographed WESTWEGO -- My co-worker's 13-year old son was in his back yard taking a picture of the sunset on March 4, 2005. When he downloaded his pictures to his computer he noticed a spot in the top center of the photo, and when you enlarge the area you see a triangle with lights on each tip. If you look even closer, you can see a black dot or craft to the right and above the triangle. Westwego is directly across the Mississippi River form New Orleans. [Image] Thanks to Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Meteor shower sparks alarm in East BOSTON - A meteor shower Sunday night sparked a flurry of frantic phone calls to police departments across New England from people who saw bright lights moving in the sky. The meteor shower was seen as far north as Maine, and as far south as Long Island. Some witnesses apparently mistook the meteor shower for a plane crashing in Connecticut, the FAA's Holly Baker said. There were no aircraft unaccounted for. The bright lights apparently came from the Lyrid meteor shower, which were visible between April 20 and April 25. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Massachusetts triangular craft ALLSTON =96 The witness was amazed to see stars when he looked up and also spotted a large triangular shape glide effortlessly across the sky on April 9, 2005, at 8:25 PM. The flying triangle was extremely high and had 16 or so circular lights underneath. No aircraft I know has so many or so large and round shapes glowing from beneath. There was no flashing light like on regular planes. It glided quickly, from west to east and disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Minnesota silent boomerang object seen HOPKINS -- The first sighting was about 11 PM, on April 7, 2005, when my wife and I saw the triangle craft flying east to west. It was triangle shape with five lights spaced about 8 inches apart. There was one light in the middle and two on each side none were blinking and as it came over we heard nothing. About 11:40 PM, it came back, flying south but as it went over the shape started to change. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com EAGAN =96 The witness reports seeing a boomerang shaped object flying from the southeast going northwest at 1:20 AM, on April 15, 2005. The object was boomerang shaped or possibly triangular with a series of dull lights, like amber bicycle reflectors. There were about six lights arranged in a chevron pattern along the leading edge and the trailing edge of the object was not clearly visible. The matte black color and motion of the object caught my attention. It clearly occluded the stars in the sky and traversed 120 degrees of arc in about 8 seconds. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com PLYMOUTH -- A Lead Operations Specialist (name deleted) was driving northbound home from work at 9 PM, on March 2, 2005, when she saw three huge white lights in the sky ahead and above Highway 494. It was flying very low maybe a 500 feet high or so. Really too low for an airplane to be flying. Was it going to crash? As I neared it, I realized it wasn't moving and there was no noise. The lights were so bright, there is no way this could have been a plane. I drove directly underneath it and looked up and saw a triangular shaped object like a scalene triangle, but symmetric. I could see it was black on the bottom with some sporadic little lights on it. The weirdest thing happened. After I drove under it, I saw this dark object in the air behind it. Thanks to Keezia Montana five silver spheres MISSION RANGE -- While driving east towards Mission Dam, St. Ignatius about 8:30 PM, on April 7, 2005, we both saw at least four large lights, which looked like large head lights of a car, tumble through the sky, as if in leap frog. The speed was faster than anything we knew of and immediately they were gone. As soon as we saw them, we both questioned the other "did you just see what I saw?" Sure enough we both saw the same thing. My fiance is Native American Flathead born and raised here. I am from Washington State, and we both have never seen anything quit like that leap frogging in the sky and disappearing. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com New Jersey flying triangle SICKLERVILLE =96 The witness saw a triangle shaped yellow light moving slowly around a little forest that we have between our Asten Woods complex. On April 20, 2005, at 9:32 PM, I left the house to pick up my eleven year old daughter at a party. I stopped the car on Dittest Street to look and the triangle stayed in place for about two minutes. Then, the triangle light disappeared or just faded away leaving a little circle of small lights. I picked up my daughter and when I turned into Erial and Williamstown Road, I could see the triangle light again. My daughter also saw the ttriangle in the sky. It crossed the road and disappeared again in the open clear sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com North Carolina flying triangle with lights A CD containing photos like this is available by donating to Filer's Files. The image was taken of disk over the center of the state by the Carolina Research Project photographers early this year. [Image] MOREHEAD CITY -- The witness spotted a flying triangle with six large rectangle lights at 9:50 PM, on April 4, 2005. Three lights were on the left and three on the right They ran down the sides and looked equal in size. There was also one round light at the bottom in the back center of the craft. The light was so dim it was barely visible heading north. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com GREENSBORO -- On April 8, 2005, my dad, my brother, and I were watching our little three-year old brother get on his school bus at 6:38 AM, when my dad told us to look into the tree. There was a large disk in the tree that just shot away into the sky. We spotted several perfectly cut branches in the tree. Many cut branches were laying on the ground. It had been hovering in the tree and many branches were bent as though it was sitting there watching us the whole time. Earlier that morning we were in bed and our door alarm went off. We thought my little brother left the house again, but he was in bed. My Mother said, she heard some sort of drone noise, saw something go around the house, and couldn't see any of the street lights through the trees. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Ohio UFO Video FOSTORIA =96 George continues to send interesting images taken with his RCA VHS video camera. This April 20, 2005, photo shows a rod or disc. The craft are thought to be moving at over a thousand miles per hour causing some elongating distortion above the farm. Possible second UFO in the trees.[Image] Oregon four early flying wings spotted KLAMATH FALLS --My wife and I were in the back yard at 4:20 PM, on April 5, 2005, when we heard a prop driven aircraft overhead and began to look for it (as I am an aviation buff). I spotted the plane heading north at about 3000 feet above us. We are about 4100 feet above sea level. As the aircraft passed overhead, I noticed a metallic silver and reflective object that resembled the shape of the early flying wings. I estimate the wing was 35 feet across and flying at an altitude of 18,000 feet. There were no visible lights or strobes. The object was moving much faster than a jet and made no sound. A minute later we noticed two more objects of the same shape flying in the same direction, altitude, and speed as the first. They flew parallel to each other about 800 feet apart. A minute later another object was spotted that flew overhead. Then, it performed a single roll and showed a distinct reflective property. The prevailing wind at the surface was from the southwest. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Rhode Island triangular ship spotted EAST GREENWICH =96 The witness was driving south on Route 4 near the Quonset Point exit when he saw a flying dark triangle craft with three white lights with one on each corner on April 13, 2005, at 12:30 AM. There was a blinking red and white strobe light dead center. There were two state policeman pulled off to the other side of the road even though there was no construction and no accident. They were side by side with there windows down watching. I did not stop, but slowed to about 30 mph and rolled my window down. There was no sound coming from the craft and it was surely not moving. The object was stationary and hovered in place for several minutes just blinking its lights. The triangle was 1-2000 feet altitude. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com South Carolina pilot sees meteor-like UFO HARTSVILLE -- Jimmy Howell writes: Did anyone report the large meteor on April 29, 2005 at approximately 20:45? I was in eastern South Carolina and witnessed a HUGE object enter the atmosphere in the eastern sky traveling south to north. It created a comet-like tail for 30 seconds, split in half and the trailing portion exploded like a 4th of July firework!!! I was awed and frightened at once. The entire sighting lasted for three minutes which seems too long for a meteor. I had my 7 year old daughter with me and she awoke this morning still talking about it. I'm a private pilot so I'm familiar with the night skies. Not sure who tracks this info but saw your website. Thanks to Jimmy Howell Hartsville, SC Texas UFO sighting KATY -- The balcony of my apartment has a direct, unobstructed view of the north and west and at 9:30 PM, on April 13, 2005, I witnessed what appeared to be a typical aircraft light moving from west to east at normal aircraft speed over North Houston. The light stopped its forward progress NNW direction from my balcony, and seemed to hover for a couple of seconds. It then abruptly soared upward at a fast rate of speed, then shot straight forward rapidly east. It hesitated again, momentarily, and then the light disappeared. A few seconds later, at least three normal aircraft appeared in the sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Washington object with red lights around it RITZVILLE -- At 9:15 PM, my husband, our grandson and I were driving west on I-90 on April 8, 2005, when we saw a solid flash of red that went completely around the object. It would stay on for two seconds then go off and come on again after two seconds. The object was outside my window about 50 feet up and 30 feet away from the car. We were driving at 65 miles an hour, so it was hard to tell if the object was moving. When the red lights came on I could see the bottom of the round object. When the red lights went off I couldn't see the object at all, only when the red lights came on, was I able to see it. There was no sound from the object. I have never seen anything like it before. I told my husband to pull over, so I could watch it, by the time we got pulled over it was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com who spoke with the witnesses, and said, they sounded to us to be quite credible. Western Amtrak trip photographs triangle I assure you I took the photos below. I did not see the object until I had been home for a while, and was looking at my pictures from my Amtrak ride across the country. The second photo is a blow up of the object. I was shooting images of the lava plugs... that is the formation of the volcano that shows and eroded cone. Only two photos out of 300 on the train are the only ones with this triangle probably shot over New Mexico. [Image] The Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Australia UFO spotted up there TOWNSVILLE =96 Ten minutes ago, my Mother and I we're putting my pet into it's night cage when my Mum said to me, "What's that thing up there in the sky?" We live in a rural area in far north of Queensland, so we can seethe sky quite well at night. So I looked up at 9:45 PM, on April 1, 2005, and it took me fifteen seconds to see what she was looking at. The witness states, "I saw a flashing red and green light, not like a plane since the airport flight path goes across our area so we know what they look like, but it seemed to be high up in the atmosphere." It made no sound and seemed to be going very slow. The lights 'turned off' for about 10 seconds every now and then, and then 'start up' again in the same spot of the sky. This was not an April Fool joke. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]www.ufocenter.com VICTOR HARBOR =96 Kathy writes, "On the 24 of April, I was visiting a coastal area about 2 hours drive south of Adelaide, South Australia, when I noticed an object hovering in front of the cloud mass. I managed to take a picture of the object with my cell phone camera, hence the poor quality, however, I was able to enlarge it for you. Time of the sighting was 6 PM Thanks to Kathy... [Image] Iran shiny UFOs seen in skies My newspaper today reported an Iranian official as saying that shiny objects seen in their skies were US drones. Well, maybe, maybe not. I'm inclined to think that they are ours, a new UFO- type spy drone. We are certainly reporting a lot of them around. These shiny objects are certainly not the conventional type of drone we would expect to hear about. They could, of course, be real UFOs, but some how I don't think they would have the interest in them that we have. Thanks to HH Steven Spielberg says aliens are our friends Movie Producer Steven Spielberg says: "Aliens are more likely to be our friends and space brothers than preparing for a hostile takeover and colonization of earth" according to David Germain, AP Movie Writer, San Francisco Gate. When the aliens finally arrive, Steven Spielberg expects them to be galactic good Samaritans like E.T. rather than the malevolent marauders of "War of the Worlds." www.waroftheworlds.com/ "I have to certainly believe what my heart tells me. That the first time there is a meeting of the minds between extraterrestrials and human beings, it's going to be friendly," Spielberg told The Associated Press in an interview looking ahead to his "War of the Worlds" saga, starring Tom Cruise. Canada Flying Triangle SYLVAN LAKE --The object moved fast in a westerly direction. It was low with no sound. As I walked home from a friends, I looked up into the sky to look at the constellations. I saw an object move swiftly over, low, no sounds and it was a Triangle V formation. It moved in a westerly direction. The object passed overhead for roughly 30 seconds before I lost site. It was almost like a U-2 spy plane, but they can't travel that fast and that low. France =96 UFO Photographed [Image] PARIS -- Valerie Delalieux writes: My friends and I went on a school trip to Paris, and there we took a picture of the Eiffel Tower. In the background, there is a weird black spot behind my friends and we would like to know what it is. Maybe you can help us ? That picture was taken on Thursday, April 28,-2005, between 1 and 3 PM. We hope you can help us because we really want to know what that thing is ! Thanks Valerie [Image] Editor's Note: Thank you for your report to Filer's Files. We will also attempt to analyze your photograph. Your sighting was very interesting and appears to be a valid sighting of a Unidentified Flying Object with a disc shape. The object appears to be a disc of metallic design. There is a possibility that you photographed a metallic looking balloon that could have been floating in the area. Do you happen to know the direction the wind was blowing and the direction you were facing at the time of the photograph. Were there additional photographs taken? If so we could determine the direction of movement of the object. Iraq =96 MD Army Colonel's letter Colonel Jesse Marcel writes, "Keep up the good fight on Roswell. Sooner or later the whole truth will come out, but as you know I am satisfied as to what was on our kitchen floor, and it WAS NOT debris from a Mogul device." I am going to take leave late June and get a time away from here. It looks like I may be here till Jan of 06 however. I need a break!! Winston Churchill once said that the greatest thrill a guy can have in war is to be shot at without permanent result. I can vouch safely that Winston was right on. What scares me is that sooner or later there may be a result! ha. I don't know if I told you about that helicopter that was shot down, but it was in back of us. I saw it at the helipad in Baghdad before we took off. It was just a few minutes in back of us but we did not know it was downed until we landed at Balad. When you are flying, you look at what is happening in front of you and not behind you. I'm sure we were targeted but we have big guns and travel in pairs so if one of us is shot down then the bad guys will have a very angry Blackhawk sister ship on their ass with blazing M 60 machine guns. The bad guys only like to go after unarmed people. There goes another red alert alarm so have to go---Jess South Africa sphere switched on under water PORT ELIZABETH =96 On April 9, 2005, the witness reports seeing a blue sphere rise up from underwater and hang two or three feet above the surface. He watched for thirteen minutes as it slowly moved towards the dam up the river at 11 AM.. He states, "My aunt's grandmother saw it back in 1936, I saw it 22 years ago and now I know where they're hiding." Actually, this is the third time I've seen it. Uitenhage , South-Africa, 6229. Donate to Filer's Files to receive UFO CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our website. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer 222 Jackson Road Medford, NJ 08055 You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:59:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:24:31 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:03:09 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <VALIS23A.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:13:45 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:55:46 -0300 >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>I'm not sure where Don Ledger has been lately - perhaps on a >>trip to Venus with J.C. >And Jerry and I had a lovely trip to Venus. The weather there >was very warm however - and cloudy. Don, I think we ought to thank Orthon publicly for the graciousness and hospitality he showed us during our Venusian vacation. We should mention, too, that we spent a wonderful
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Scientists Say Life On Mars Likely From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:59:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:28:55 -0400 Subject: Scientists Say Life On Mars Likely Source: Wired Magazine http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697,67315,00.html May 2nd 2005 Scientists: Life on Mars Likely By Rowan Hooper Not so long ago it was unthinkable for respectable scientists to talk about life on Mars. Such talk was best left to X-Files fans. But no longer. Evidence is building to suggest biological processes might be operating on the red planet, and life on Mars, many scientists believe, is now more a likelihood than merely a possibility. Tantalizing evidence is accumulating that suggests the red planet is alive, but incontrovertible proof is still lacking. And while the European Space Agency is keen to send a lander to find it, a history of failed life-finding missions at NASA makes Americans more cautious. "The life on Mars issue has recently undergone a paradigm shift," said Ian Wright, an astrobiologist at the Planetary and Space Sciences Research Institute at the Open University in Britain, "to the extent now that one can talk about the possibility of present life on Mars without risking scientific suicide." Much of the excitement is due to the work of Vittorio Formisano, head of research at Italy's Institute of Physics and Interplanetary Space. In February, Formisano presented data at the Mars Express Science Conference at Noordwijk in the Netherlands. If scientists had been quietly excited before seeing Formisano's data, they were frenetic afterward. Formisano showed evidence of the presence of formaldehyde in the atmosphere. Formaldehyde is a breakdown product of methane, which was already known to be present in the Martian atmosphere, so in itself its presence is not so surprising. But Formisano measured formaldehyde at 130 parts per billion. To astrobiologists it was an incredible claim. It means huge amounts of methane must be produced on Mars. (While methane lasts for hundreds of years in the atmosphere, formaldehyde lasts for only 7.5 hours.) "It requires that 2.5 million tons of methane are produced a year," said Formisano. "There are three possible scenarios to explain the quantities: chemistry at the surface, caused by solar radiation; chemistry deep in the planet, caused by geothermal or hydrothermal activity; or life," he added. And, with no known geological source of formaldehyde on Mars, it's clear where Formisano's suspicions lie. "I believe there is extremely high probability that microbial subsurface life exists on Mars," he said, while acknowledging that although he believes in Martian life, he can't yet prove it. "What will certainly be needed in the future is a drill on a lander and direct evidence of the existence of Archaea bacteria," Formisano said, adding that he intends to publish his data in a forthcoming issue of planetary science journal Icarus. The European Space Agency certainly wants to send a rover to Mars, and was urged to do so at an international space workshop at Aston University in Birmingham, England, earlier this month. To get a lander on Mars will almost certainly require the involvement, at some level, of NASA. But NASA has its own surface mission planned. Scheduled to arrive in late 2010, the Mars Science Laboratory rover will use an array of instruments to look for evidence of life. "Europe and the U.S. are in a friendly competition to find life first," said Yuk Yung, professor of planetary science at the California Institute of Technology, "which is healthy for science -- and funding." The race to find proof of life started in earnest in 1996, after NASA scientists published a paper claiming that the Martian meteorite ALH84001 contained evidence of past biological activity. While that claim remains controversial, it kick- started a change in mood about the possibility of present life on Mars. Excitement grew in 2003 when Michael Mumma, of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, reported he had detected methane in the Martian atmosphere. Then last year Vladimir Krasnopolsky, of the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., made a similar claim about methane. Both researchers had measured methane using ground- based telescopes. But while the issue of life on Mars may have undergone a paradigm shift, it is really only in Europe that scientists are openly excited. In the United States, NASA is cagey. According to Wright at the Open University, NASA is gun-shy about sending up another life-finding Martian probe. "NASA staff probably still remember Viking, which was a mission
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Are We Living In An Alien Simulation? From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:30:27 -0400 Subject: Are We Living In An Alien Simulation? 'Are We Living in an Alien Simulation?' by Mac Tonnies From: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com A god-like intelligence wanting to understand the workings of our civilization might not be content with occasional "reconnaissance missions" or eavesdropping on our broadcasts. Perhaps nothing less than a robust, interactive simulation -- with the aliens playing the roles of indigenous inhabitants -- would suffice. In this case, for the simulation to bear anthropological fruit, it would behoove the aliens to think they really were Earthlings, complete with artificial memories. Only upon exiting the simulation would they remember their actual nature. So maybe Earth as we know it is actually an alien virtual reality constructed as a sort of "Jurassic Park" in which to observe human society from the inside out. Or maybe, less glamorously, we're all amnesiac participants in a vast nonhuman chat-room or first-person video game. As a (presumed) Earthling, I like the idea that there's some nobler purpose to our existence, even if we're ultimately nothing more than a flux of electrons inside from unfathomable alien computer. Just as some of us enjoy historical simulations such as Renaissance fairs, an arbitrarily advanced civilization -- either alien or human -- might decide to reconstruct a time- period for educational purposes. Indeed, we are fortunate (?) to find ourselves living in such a pivotal time, possibly just years away from achieving the technological "Singularity" predicted by some futurists. Humans have existed for untold thousands of years, but only recently have we developed the capability to transcend our home planet or, conversely, extinguish all life upon it. If we are in fact experiencing the early 21st century in "real time" (and not as a VR recording), then it's tempting to envision future scholars, endowed with immense computing power, creating a simulated version of our era -- and then, just maybe, immersing themselves in it for the sake of understanding. This scenario is unabashedly hopeful, as it implies that there is a future for humankind. On a darker note, we could be the computational spawn of alien archaeologists, doomed to simulate our own impending demise. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Area 51 Declassified From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:47:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:34:48 -0400 Subject: Area 51 Declassified Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas Nevada http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3308578&nav=168XZX0A May 6, 2005 Area 51 Declassified by George Knapp As Las Vegas prepares to celebrate its centennial, another Nevada institution is marking a milestone birthday this month. The world's best-known secret military base, Area 51, turns 50 years old this month. Area 51, located at dry Groom Lake in Lincoln County, has been 'the' location of choice for the most classified military programs in the world. For many years, the government would not admit its existence. People who worked there were sworn to secrecy. Now, they're talking. Area 51 wasn't supposed to be a permanent base. It was built in 1955 for the U-2 spy plane. But when that work was finished, other so-called black projects were sent there, and today it is a multi-billion dollar facility that essentially cannot be duplicated. The people who've worked there over the years are justifiably proud about their work in protecting our national security. But they've never been able to talk about it, not to their spouses, not even to each other. Now, the people who were there, and the secrets they kept for so long, are breaking their silence. Buses with blacked-out windows, cameras that scan for any movement, sensors buried in the dirt, armed choppers that patrol the skies are all ominous signs that warn of deadly force. The secrecy that's long been the trademark of Area 51 is as pronounced today as it's ever been. Whatever is going on inside, no one is going to talk about it. For decades, the government would not admit the existence of Area 51. Its code name disappeared from maps. Employees could not tell their own spouses where they worked. T.D. Barnes, retired CIA electronics specialist, said, "No one knew about it. You never heard of Groom Lake in those days, or Area 51. Electrical whiz T.D. Barnes was working for NASA in the 1960s when he first focused on Area 51. He knew from radar signatures that something very fast was flying around out there. Barnes was recruited by the CIA to join the Groom Lake team, although this kind of teamwork was pretty unusual. Barnes said, "You never talked about each other's jobs. Some guys I knew, I worked with them, stayed there all week with them, to this day I don't know what their specialty was. We didn't ask. To this day you do not ask." If Area 51 had DNA, secrecy would be woven into it. Lockheed genius Kelly Johnson needed an out-of-the-way place to test his spindly spy plane, the U-2, and the dry bed of Groom Lake seemed perfect. It was far from prying eyes, but still close to the already-secure Nevada Test Site. In 1955, when the first U-2 was rolled out at Groom, the base, then known as Watertown, consisted of only a few buildings and hangars. For Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2 pilots and personnel, Area 51 was no garden spot, but the work was vital. The U-2 enabled America to find out what our adversaries were up to. Even before Powers U-2 was shot down over Russia, a successor to the U-2 was in the pipeline at Lockheed's Skunkworks, a family of planes that would be known as Blackbirds. Bob Gilliland, Lockheed test pilot, "The greatest airplanes ever built, and still are, 40 years ago and still the world's fastest. Test pilot Bob Gilliland was chosen by Lockheed as the first man to fly the SR-71, one version of the Blackbird and the fastest plane too ever fly. When the U-2's moved out of Groom Lake, the Blackbirds moved in. They could travel faster than Mach 3, but at such speeds, the planes and the pilots got mighty warm. Bob Gilliland, "Around 800 degrees Fahrenheit. A self-cleaning oven is 425. A soldering iron is 550, so it's a lot hotter than that. General Dennis Sullivan, CIA pilot, said, "They asked me, you want to volunteer to do something? What am I gonna do, I asked. They said, we can't tell you. Okay, I volunteer." Military pilot Dennis Sullivan was recruited by the CIA to work at Groom Lake in the early 1960s and to pilot the A-12, an early Blackbird. It was the middle of the Cold War, but for spy pilots, the cold war was pretty hot. Various enemies were trying to shoot down the Blackbirds. And just flying the planes was dangerous enough. Gen. Dennis Sullivan said, "A guy in CIA headquarters told me when we looked at it, we figured we'd lose 20-percent of you guys, which is about what we did." There were other dangers. Area 51 was only a few miles from Ground Zero at the Nevada Test Site. The base was often showed with radioactive fallout from atomic tests. In later years, workers were exposed to toxic chemicals because of regular open pit burning at Groom Lake. Despite the risks, those who worked at Area 51 are proud of their roles - proud and tight-lipped. T.D. Barnes said, "If there's something going on out there and they don't want people to know about it, they're not gonna know about it. It's not gonna happen." There are some festivities planned for the end of this month in Rachel, Nevada to mark the 50th anniversary of Area 51. Although, the I-Team is told the base has already held its own little shindig. The men we interviewed are part of an organization called the Roadrunners, made up of former Area 51 workers and headed by Roger Anderson. The Roadrunners have helped get a lot of information about their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:37:25 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>Beyond that, missing time seems to have been there in some pre- >>Hill cases but was (understandably, given the limitations of >>what ufologists knew back then) unrecognized and unremarked >>upon. In other words, missing time was there waiting to be >>found. Ufologists had nothing to do with it beyond, at last, >>finding it. Are you going to tell us next that ufologists >>invented daylight discs? Cloud cigars? E-M effects? I know that >>pelicanists are attracted to what amounts to magical thinking >>about social and psychological processes, but I trust you will >>spare us this much. >>Why are we even _talking_ about this? Missing time, whatever its >>explanation, has been repeatedly demonstrated over the decades >>as an aspect of the abduction phenomenon, however explained. It >>is pointless and absurd to pretend that only the Hills had ever >>had this experience (however explained). Maybe if they alone >>spoke of it and it was never heard of again anywhere, this >>discussion would have some reason to exist. Since they aren't >>alone, this exchange is as urgently needed as a debate on pin- >>top-dancing angels. >And while they (Hohmann, Jackson and Macdonald) were here were >they mentally reconstructing the whole trip. One of them said >"What took you so long to get home...you went this distance.", >etc. There is a conversation about seeing the moon on the >ground. Then Fuller has Barney being shaken by realising that at >the rate of speed I always travel they should have arrived home >2 hours or so earlier. >That, according to Fuller is where the 2 missing hours comes in, >not a momentary blocking out of some fearful sight in the field. As I have already shown, Peter, the Hills's memories of the incident were already incompatible with the conscious testimony, and in a very serious way. For example, Barney remembered seeing the alien's face within touching distance - an image disconnected from everything, including his sense of the time in which the more distant CE3 of conscious recall was occurring. The anomalies Walt Webb noted and couldn't comprehend are consistent with an incident that both was more dramatic and took longer than the puzzled Hills could reconstruct from the initial account. Webb dealt with the anomalous, puzzling details by rationalizing them away. Hohman and Jackson smartly grasped that the clue to the case was _in_ the anomalous details - even without realizing that there were previous, deeply obscure cases of missing time in the close-encounter literature. History, of course, has proved that they were right. The missing-time phenomenon has been repeatedly demonstrated, over time and space, as one of the most common elements of the abduction experience. If it hadn't been the Hill case that opened ufologists' eyes to this curious aspect, it would have been another just down the road, and probably not very far down
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:07:31 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:39:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Salla >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:07:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:49:48 -1000 >>Subject: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars <snip> >>I think it very plausible that visiting ETs would have >>known of the forthcoming test and arranged for a diplomatic >>meeting with President Eisenhower to ask for an abandonment >>of thermonuclear weapons testing. >Cool. These aliens sure are nice folk. I would have >thought they would have mind controlled the Administration >or at least blasted a few aircraft to show they mean >business. Oh yes, they are too incompetent for that. >They keep crashing (their spacecraft) all the time like >drunken sailors. Aloha James, Thanks for your humor. It's good to have a laugh over the ridiculousness of the situation we face. Some are convinced we should be doing exopolitical analysis over the secret agreements, etc., that exist between ETs and 'shadow government' agencies (my position), and others convinced we need more data before we conclude that UFO's are intelligently guided and that ETs are visiting our planet (your position?). So we debate, make fun of one another, and hope that through all this we arrive at some consensus about what is really going on. There are however some facts that can't be dismissed here. On February 20 1954 President Eisenhower went missing for an evening and a number of military whistleblower testimonies exist that he visited Edwards Airforce base. On March 1, the Bravo test of a thermonuclear device occurred, the largest ever in US history. If the Eishenhower administration were mind controlled, the test probably would not have happened. As for ET's incompetence in flying interstellar craft here, there seems to be a lot of evidence that crash retreivals are caused by a number of factors, some natural others artificial, eg., the Earth's fluctating magnetic fields, military testing of radar systems, etc. >>The course systematically examines data from >>whistleblowers, witnesses, contactees/abductees, independent >>archeologists, remote viewing, and, yes, 'channeling to provide >>students some exposure to the main data circulating in the >>field. > >I get good luck having my questions answered using my Magic >Eight Ball although I have heard dowsing and Ouija boards are >effective. EVP can be used to contact Carl Sagan and even >President Eisenhower, although he is rather busy recently with >golfing with astral Pleiadians, so I just get his answering >machine. > Thanks for your outlining your esoteric communication methods. For me, I like to develop the right premises upon which the rules of logical deduction give us some sensible conclusions about what's happening. That means looking at ALL the evidence, coming up with means for weighing and testing these different sources, ranking them, and then reaching some conclusions about what's happening. >>The second course is "Citizen Diplomacy with >>Extraterrestrials" which examines the kinds of issues >>that private citizens have when establishing >>communications and interactions with visiting >>extraterrestrial races. >A definite issue is how to keep the aliens from making you drop >your trousers since they seem so prone to anal yzing people >against their will. Yes, I've heard that too so I'll be sure to have the right belt if ET ever approaches. Perhaps trouser suspenders would be better so maybe we can do a quantative analysis of abduction reports to see what percentage of males wearing suspenders do go through an alien anal ysis as you suggest. >>Information about the "Citizen Diplomacy" seminars >>which are held in Hawaii and include dolphin swims is >>available at:.... >Uh, are dolphins aliens? Or do aliens like dolphins? Whats this >about dolphins? I haven't yet checked the dolphin's passports and whether when swimming in Hawaiin waters they are bona fide American dolphins or non-resident aliens from elsewhere in the Pacific. If you like, I can check with the USCIS (aka INS) to see if they have an ethnic category for dolphins and whether they can apply for US residency like the rest of us 'aliens' resident in the US. As for swimming with dolphins in Hawaii, evidence points to them being highly intelligent with brains as large as or larger than humans, and they have advanced communications abilities and many claim they are telepathic and have other unique abilities. My experience is that swimming with dolphins is an excellent way to prepare for contact with off world races, or at the very least not freak out when suddenly immersed in an off world 'alien' environment. >>Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize >>with the various issues concerning exopolitics and >>'galactic diplomacy' through courses and seminars similar >>to those I'm conducting, will be best placed to deal with >>the challenges that lie ahead as we move into an era of >>open disclosure of visiting extraterrestrial races. >More likely, you need some courses in survivalist training to >help the citizinery survive encounters with "our friends the >aliens". Sorry, I don't watch the Survivor show so I'm not up to the latest survivor tips. However, I don't think we should assume that off world visitors are our friends. Evidence points to ETs being as multifaceted as your 'typical American' so I'd recommend some training in the protocol of communicating and interacting with ETs. But I know, you are still waiting for more hard evidence before you take any of this 'citizen diplomacy with ET' stuff seriously, so perhaps I should come up with a more basic program for what kind of trouser suspender best protects one when meeting ET.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:02:00 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>I don't think the Hill case was that novel or out of the >>>ordinary in 1961. It has been argued that abductions were >>>only noted in obscure UFO magazines unavailable to the >>>Hills, yet if we look at the investigation of their case, >>>they had long discussions with UFO experts within weeks of >>>their encounter experience. From them they would have >>>picked up plenty of information about current UFO >>>research and theories. >>No, they wouldn't have. That material just wasn't available. >>You simply don't know what you're talking about. Until you >>do, a wise course of action, it seems to me, would be to >>choose to engage only in those disucssions in which you >>have something to contribute. >Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology it is >significant that the only major account of it is by a popular >journalist and author. Where are the detailed investigations >and reports by the likes of Keyhoe, Hynek or Clark? Who decided that the Hill case "is the most important ufology?" I suppose Nigel Watson did in order to set up his straw-man argument that follows. >>>It should also be noted that throughout the 1950s the >>>contactee literature and science fiction on TV and in >>>films often contained alien encounters and abductions. >What has Arnold and pre-SF magazines got to do with the Hill >case? Their encounter was in 1961, there had already been a >decade of contactee literature, UFO reports in the newspapers >and many SF films about alien invasions and abduction. Perhaps Nigel Watson can list for us the "many" SF films about alien abductions. In particular, I would appreciate him listing the films with similarity of details to the Hill abduction, such as missing time, the described medical prodedures, amnesia, etc. >>And by the way, taking abductions off the table, where is the >>evidence that persons who are not emotionally disturbed are >>subject to vivid science-fiction fantasies which they are >>deluded into believing really happened? If this is a >>recognized category of nonpathological mental malfunction >>and exists outside the abduction arena, it has escaped me. >>I've never heard of it, and I suspect nobody else has, either. >>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not >>mentally ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations >>which they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think >>so. >Philip K. Dick for one. Case closed. Therefore the Hills must have suffered SF-based hallucinations which they confused with real events. >Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned >argument. Where's the reasoned argument from Nigel Watson? All I see are the usual, hand-waving, untestable arguments that the Hills _must_ have been influenced by the SF literature/movies and somehow confabulated the whole thing. >On a more important and final point where is the objective, >empirical evidence for the Hill abduction? Where's the objective, empirical evidence that it didn't happen? There are actually details in the Hill account plus some physical evidence that are rather difficult to explain away as mere fantasy, whether SF-induced or otherwise. Pease Air Force Base did pick up a UFO at the same time and location that the Hills claimed. There were unexplained bright spots on the trunk of the car that affected a compass. Both the Hills' watches stopped running after the experience. Barney Hill had an unexplained circle of warts in his groin area where under hypnosis he remembered them carrying out some sort of medical procedure. Betty Hill described a medical procedure, a "pregnancy test" that sounds remarkably similar to modern-day amniocentesis. Skeptics correctly point out that amniocentesis predated the Hill case, but fail to note the procedure was experimental and used only by a few medical researchers. It did not become a commonplace obstetrical procedure until years after the Hill case. Another suggestion is that the procedure wasn't amniocentesis but egg extraction, now commonly done for in vitro fertilization, but totally without precedent back in 1961. Now how many Sci-Fi films or stories depicted amniocentesis or in vitro fertilization procedures before 1961? Perhaps Nigel Watson can list these as well. Or maybe we are supposed to believe that Betty Hill, in addition to being a malleable SF fanatic, was also plugged into the esoteric medical research literature of the time and thus incorporated amniocentesis into her abduction fantasy. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but how likely is it? There is also, of course, the controversal Hill "star map," perhaps the most complete treatment of which was in a special 1976 edition of Astronomy magazine. Although skeptics like Carl Sagan retorted that the pattern match to our local stellar neighborhood with the Zeta Reticuli dual star system being the home base was more fanciful than real, David Saunders responded that Sagan's argument was qualitative, when it should have been quantitative. Saunders, an expert statistician who had been on the Condon commission, then gave statistical argument that the odds of a match between the Hill map and the local neighborhood of sun-like stars was only one in a thousand or less of happening by chance. Astronomy student Michael Peck then did another statistical analysis of correlation coefficients between X and Y coordinates of the star map and the true Zeta Reticuli-centered neighborhood. Peck got correlation coefficents greater than 0.9 for both X and Y coordinates. Perfect correlation would have been 1.0. Randomly drawn dots would be expected to have correlation coefficients near 0. Just to check this, Peck did sample runs with such random dots and got X and Y correlation coefficents less than 0.1, as expected. Peck concluded that the degree of resemblance between the two maps was statistically very high. To emphasize the point, he also calculated the probability that 15 random dots (the Hill map had 15 stars on it besides the Sun) would create an equal level of correlation strictly by chance. The number he got was only one in 10^15, about one trillion times less probable than Saunders statistical estimate. There are a number of interesting details of the Hill map that also strongly suggest that the similarity would not be a chance event. Sun-like stars connected by lines, supposedly representing "trade routes" or exploration routes, lie practically in a plane, and would be the most efficient way to explore the local neighborhood of Sun-like stars. The Zeta Reticuli system, supposedly the base of the star pattern, is extremely rare, a pair of stars almost exactly like the sun separated by a scant 0.15 light years. As Stan Friedman and others have pointed out, it is not hard to imagine how the closeness of the two stars would act as a tremendous incentive to a civilization arising from one of the stars to develop interstellar travel. The Zeta Reticuli pair are also older stars than our Sun by approximately a billion years or more, at least consistent with an older, more advanced civilization having evolved there and then branched out. The point is the Hill map does constitute "objective, empirical evidence" that can be analyzed scientifically. While the map does not definitively prove the Hill abduction occurred, as one section of the Astronomy magazine noted, "not everything can be written off as coincidence or hallucination." Not even the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:11:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:25:58 -0400 Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:55:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: The Engineered Moon >>Freeman considered the readings from the Apollo 12 site to be >>important enough to mention in the abstract of the original >>paper. Peer pressure or not, there is no good excuse for simply >>dropping something without explanation that was important enough >>to be included in the abstract and then referred to throughout >>the paper.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:45:01 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally >>ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which >>they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so. >Philip K. Dick for one. A poor example. Dick was an extraordinarily imaginative man, whose rich fantasy life found expression both in his science- fiction writing and in his beliefs about his contacts with otherworldly realities. (Do these, by the way, fall under my specified qualification of being nonpathological? Watson skirts the question, I note.) One can't argue that the former (SF writing) led him to the latter, since both are simply different aspects of the same unordinary mental life. Dick doesn't have much to tell us except about some of the avenues of expression to which the artistic temperaments can lead the artist. If relevant to anybody, Dick is relevant to, say, William Blake -- not the sorts of ordinary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Project Beta And Underground Bases From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:52:03 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:46:40 -0400 Subject: Project Beta And Underground Bases Project Beta and Underground Bases Air Force Files And Strange Tales Wednesday, May 4, 2005 By: Nick Redfern Co-Editor Phenomena Magazine Several weeks ago I highlighted a new book titled Project Beta: The Story Of Paul Bennewitz, National Security And The Creation Of A Modern UFO Myth. Written by radio host, author, and the editor of the magazine The Excluded Middle, Greg Bishop, the book is arguably one of the finest and most important, published contributions to the subject of UFO research. And, as I also mentioned previously, the subject matter of Project Beta is an unusual and bizarre one. And were it not for the fact that the story is meticulously detailed, referenced and researched by Greg, the reader might be forgiven for thinking that they had stumbled upon the ufological equivalent of a high- tech, X-Files-meets-The Manchurian Candidate-meets-Robert Ludlum-style thriller. In essence, the truth-is-stranger-than-fiction book relates the fascinating and compelling story of New Mexico-based physicist Paul Bennewitz, who - after stumbling upon Air Force and National Security Agency (NSA) secrets at Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico, that he believes are connected to the activities of sinister extraterrestrials forces flying around in their UFOs - is literally bombarded (both physically and electronically) with a mass of disinformation, faked stories and outright lies, all carefully provided to him by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) and the NSA, with the express intent of diverting him away from his research and leading him down the rocky path towards mental and psychological collapse. In reality, what Bennewitz perceived to be alien-connected activities at Kirtland were instead directly linked to a number of distinctly down-to-earth operations, including a new technique for tracking and photographing the movements of Soviet space satellites, a classified communication system developed by the National Security Agency, and the test-flight of prototype, "drone" aircraft. As Greg carefully and skillfully demonstrates, many of the sacred cornerstones upon which much of today's ufological lore are constructed, had their origins not in the far corners of the galaxy, but in the fertile and imaginative minds of American military intelligence and the behind-the-scenes spook-brigade, who came up with bizarre tale-upon-bizarre tale to divert Bennewitz=92s attention away from Kirtland. One of the most controversial stories fed to Bennewitz by the AFOSI - and one that still persists to this day - centered upon the alleged existence of an underground "alien base" deep in the mountains at a town called Dulce, New Mexico. According to the tales fed to Bennewitz, hostile aliens were living deep under Dulce, they were abducting American citizens, they were implanting them with tracking devices, and -- most disturbing if all - they were almost ready to launch a planet-wide assault on the human race. Horrified by this "official lie" Bennewitz began contacting congressmen, senators, the Media, even then-President Ronal Reagan in an attempt to reveal the horrible "truth" and to warn the world of the impending, alien threat. It is perhaps easy to see why, when bombarded with such data Bennewitz finally had an almost complete mental collapse. The UFO truth that has captivated so many for so long might not be "out there" after all - in fact, it may all be one big con behind which a veritable plethora of classified, military projects have been carefully hidden. And although many of the tales told to Bennewitz by the military on the subject of "underground, alien bases" were merely elaborated upon by the Air Force - having been based upon the man=92s already-existing beliefs in this area - it is curious to note that this was not the first time that the AFOSI had involvement in the subjects of UFOs and secret, underground bases. For example, AFOSI documentation of 1949 covers similar ground. Titled Flying Saucers, Aerial Phenomena, dated 29 June 1949 and prepared by a Special Agent of the AFOSI at Scott Air Force Base, its contents concern a woman (whose name is deleted from the declassified documentation) then living in Missouri but who had previously lived with her former husband in Mexico. She had informed the AFOSI Special Agent that while in Mexico in 1944 "she would hear talk of secret weapons" that were being built in "an underground aircraft factory" and that was situated "beneath a mountain near Monterrey, Mexico City..." According to the story, the woman=92s husband (whose name is also deleted from the official documentation) "had been given the privilege of visiting this underground factory where he saw thousands of aircraft which were being constructed of some metallic or plastic material that could not be seen in flight. The crews of these aircraft could see out but on-lookers were unable to see in..." The document continued that: "these aircraft were being prepared for a special operation against the United States and were rocket-powered." Interestingly, a somewhat plausible theory was discussed by the AFOSI concerning how and why the woman=92s husband was granted access to this presumably Top Secret underground factory: "...[He] is a member of a famous singing combination in Mexico City, and as such, has privileges granted by high standing Mexican Statesmen..." The document reveals little more. Curiously, however, a further document found in the declassified files of the AFOSI focuses its attention upon a letter written in December 1967 by a concerned resident of Staten Island, New York, to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, that discusses the letter-writer=92s knowledge of "stolen children" kept captive by aliens in "Mexico City inside the tops of mountains..." Does this tantalizingly fragmentary body of official documentation mean that there really are aliens living deep underground and kidnapping American citizens, as Paul Bennewitz believed? Probably not. However, it may well be that, in part at least, the roots of these tales acted as the foundation for the later, more elaborate (but very similar) disinformation accounts weaved by the AFOSI to destabilize Paul Bennewitz.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:54:15 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:50:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >>>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >>>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >>>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >>>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >>>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >>>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >>>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not >>>mentally ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations >>>which they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think >>>so. >>Philip K. Dick for one. >Case closed. Therefore the Hills must have suffered SF-based >hallucinations which they confused with real events. >>Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned >>argument. <snip> >Where's the reasoned argument from Nigel Watson? All I see are >the usual, hand-waving, untestable arguments that the Hills >_must_ have been influenced by the SF literature/movies and >somehow confabulated the whole thing. <snip> >The point is the Hill map does constitute "objective, empirical >evidence" that can be analyzed scientifically. While the map >does not definitively prove the Hill abduction occurred, as one >section of the Astronomy magazine noted, "not everything can be >written off as coincidence or hallucination." Not even the >skeptics in the Astronomy magazine issue suggested that the Hill >map was inspired by Betty Hill watching Sci Fi movies. Right on David. Not much to be added to that fine summary but that the correct distance data to some of the stars wasn't known until after Marjorie Fish started her work, so that nobody doing what she did as described in The Zeta Reticuli Incident by Astronomy magazine Editor Terence Dickinson ($5 @ for a few copies still available UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958) could have correctly identified the map stars before the Hill experience.An earlier article in SAGA Magazine by myself and Bobbi Ann Slate had focused on Marjorie's fascinating work which Dr. Mitchell at Ohio State Univ. also found to be very accurate.To the best of my knowledge nobody before Marjorie had pointed out that Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli are the closest to each other pair of sun- like stars in the neighborhood. Also it seems important to note that Betty was a social worker and a supervisor in the Welfare Department, State of NH, and that Barney was on the government's Civil Rights Commission. They were both very impressive when we had a long dinner together in Pittsburgh, PA,in November,1968, a few months before Barney's death. I might add that in a later discussion with the crew at the TV station at which they were interviewed,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 6 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:07:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:55:52 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:26 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well >>>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are >>>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily >>>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans, >>>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives >>>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a >>>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in >>>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally >>>ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which >>>they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so. >>Philip K. Dick for one. >A poor example. Dick was an extraordinarily imaginative man, >whose rich fantasy life found expression both in his science- >fiction writing and in his beliefs about his contacts with >otherworldly realities. (Do these, by the way, fall under my >specified qualification of being nonpathological? Watson skirts >the question, I note.) >One can't argue that the former (SF writing) led him to the >latter, since both are simply different aspects of the same >unordinary mental life. Dick doesn't have much to tell us except >about some of the avenues of expression to which the artistic >temperaments can lead the artist. If relevant to anybody, Dick >is relevant to, say, William Blake -- not the sorts of ordinary >folk who become abductees or experients of other anomalous >experiences. There is another point that I should have made about Dick: he was a major-league drug user.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Rosales From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79.nul> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:01:22 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:31:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Rosales >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >with a balcony. The text says: >"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object >in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, >Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? Location. Georgia, exact location not given Date: 1940 Time: unknown An engineer named Rex Ball came upon a mysterious underground installation operated by small Oriental-looking men in coveralls and a few American military officers. When he was caught in one of the tunnels, one of the officers issued the curt command, "Make him look like a nut!" He woke up in a field, uncertain whether his experienced had been real or a dream. HC addition # 3101 Source: John Keel, The Mothman Prophecies Type: E or G? -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 17:57:25 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:39:27 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:59:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:03:09 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Nigel Watson <VALIS23A.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:13:45 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>I'm not sure where Don Ledger has been lately - perhaps on a >>>trip to Venus with J.C. >>And Jerry and I had a lovely trip to Venus. The weather there >>was very warm however - and cloudy. >Don, I think we ought to thank Orthon publicly for the graciousness and hospitality he showed us during our Venusian vacation. We should mention, too, that we spent a wonderful afternoon with George Adamski, who now lives on Venus in a pleasant cottage along one of the oceans. Consider it done, Jerry. Sent them lovely cards too.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Bad News About Karl Pflock From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:32:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:44:00 -0400 Subject: Bad News About Karl Pflock In the last issue of Saucer Smear, Karl Pflock (author of what IMHO is the best book on Roswell) reveals at: http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v52/ss050325.htm ----- "My 'mysterious', affliction is mysterious no longer. On February 11, I was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Cehrig's disease. There is no cure (yet) for this inevitably fatal condition. Most ALSers shuffle off this mortal coil three to six years after diagnosis, though a good proportion carry on for ten years or so, and a few much longer (physicist Stephen Hawking has been living with ALS since the 1960s). I'm in the care of Dr. John Chapin, an ALS expert at the University of New Mexico School of Medecine, in a program conducted in cooperation with the Muscular Distrophy Association's ALS Division. I will soon begin participating in a clinical trial of a drug that has been very effective against ALS in laboratory mice. Let's hope it works as well or better in humans. If not, my backup plan is to become the first recorded case of spontaneous remission. (MJ-12 and the Elders of Ufoology won't get rid of me this easily!)" ----- It also has a bizarre, probably anti-war, painting by abductee artist David Huggins. It shows George Bush, Greys, corpses, bomb
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Childhood Sighting And Persisting Intrigue From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:54:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:54:25 -0400 Subject: Childhood Sighting And Persisting Intrigue Source: The Free Lance-Staar - Fredericksburg, Virginia http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/052005/05072005/1754259 5/7/2005 Childhood Sighting And Persisting Intrigue Brought Me To Roswell, N.M., UFO Capital Of The World Childhood sighting and persisting intrigue brought me to Roswell, N.M., UFO capital of the world By Kristin Davis Mill around my bedroom, sorting books and clothes for the next school day. I haven't bothered to turn on the lights - a glow comes from the nearby laundry room. But even without it, I know this space. At 13, I spend most of my time hiding out here. I look outside, through the room's only window, into a clear spring night. The view never changes: a dark cow pasture straight ahead and to the right, a sliver of highway to the left that's quiet now. Above, a thousand constellations speckle a smear of black. There is little light pollution in this rural section of Goldsboro, N.C. Tonight, though, something moves at the edge of the field. I step toward the window. A football field away, a dark sphere circled in red lights creeps amid the tree line. It must be the size of a helicopter landing pad. Like a Frisbee in slow motion, it rotates silently toward the highway. I stand breathless and still, eyes transfixed. I know what I'm witnessing. Nothing of the Earth looks or moves this way. Then the spaceship - of course it is a spaceship! - lands. Just short of the highway, it descends into a small clearing among the trees. Out of sight. I rush to the living room and shout my news. "I saw a UFO! I saw a UFO!" My stepfather shakes his head and laughs. At school the next day, I share my news with anyone who will listen. My audience is skeptical. But I don't care. I know what I saw, and I'll search the night sky until my eyes hurt. Devour countless books and movies about flying saucers and little men with slanted, oversized eyes. I read about abductions and experiments. Hunters sucked into ships and returned days later with bizarre markings on their bodies. Drivers whose car radios crackled and went dead just before a glowing saucer descended in front of them. And fictional (I hope) accounts of women birthing half-alien babies that were snatched away in the night. I grow sleepless and haunted, a camper on my mother's bedroom floor. A month later, I'm home alone, and have gone outside after dark to feed dinner leftovers to Angel, our border collie mix. Some 50 feet from the back door, I empty the casserole dish in her bowl. Something tells me to turn around. A huge, triangular object edged in red lights hangs silently above the same tree line I can see from my bedroom window. Chills creep along my arms, even on this humid night. It is looking at me, I think. Maybe they have been watching me all along. Maybe they want to zap me up and chop me up or make me have one of their alien babies. I scream, sling the dish and spoon somewhere in the dark grass and run for the house. Inside, I hit the floor. I have never been more afraid. For minutes, I lay still on the cool vinyl while the fear subsides. This is too weird. Two in a month? I get up and slink back outside. Look to the sky. It's gone. Journey to Roswell Eleven years to the month have passed. I'm 2,000 miles from my hometown, a passenger in a rented Hyundai Sonata. The New Mexico desert zips by at 85 mph. Grass and shrubs faded sepia from wind and sun are scattered across a rugged landscape. The desert holds the grace and intrigue of an enduring artifact. There is nothing here but land and cattle and an occasional antelope, and this ribbon of highway that must stretch to the edge of the earth. My friend and I are somewhere south of Albuquerque, flying down U.S. 285. Destination: Roswell, the infamous site of a 1947 UFO crash. I first heard about Roswell at 13, after my sightings and during my zealous probe of all things extraterrestrial. The story goes like this: A shiny, silvery, saucer-shaped object plunged into a rancher's field during a fierce July thunderstorm. Officials from Roswell Army Air Field were called in. They roped off the crash site and spent days clearing wreckage. Meanwhile, stories spread like desert wildfire. They'd be remembered in affidavits years afterward: hieroglyphics on strange metal-like debris. An undertaker who got a request for several unusually small, airtight coffins. A child whose father was ashen-faced and tight-lipped after visiting the crash site. A nurse who went missing after she overheard autopsy details of remains that could not have been human. The Army Air Field issued a press release, calling the debris that of a flying saucer. People panicked. A few hours later, the military issued a new statement. The "recovered" rubble was just a weather balloon. But tiny Roswell was on the map. It has since become a kind of holy land for the cosmically curious. One hundred thousand people visit each year. That was just one of the tidbits my girlhood library scouring turned up. Those details - and my own memories - are on my mind as we speed farther south. Ever since I heard about Roswell, I thought it would be a cool place to see. When I got the chance to go to New Mexico last month, I knew I had to visit. These days, I laugh off my childhood sightings. "Did I ever tell you about the time when I was 13 and saw a spaceship in my yard? Ha, ha, ha." People think you're less crazy if you say it in jest. But I can still see a dark sky blotted in red, clear as if it just happened. Down at the Crash Site Cafe A green sign says we're less than 60 miles from Roswell. It's barely 10 a.m. and we've made good time. I wiggle in the seat like a child. Roswell! I'm going to Roswell! Until now, it was only a story, a vague spot on the map. I imagine lots of hollow-eyed people in aluminum foil hats wandering around their little bullet-shaped trailers. Caravans of fat, middle-aged men guzzling beer and watching the sky. This is my image of crazy. I guess I've been taught that only insane people see UFOs. Roswell will prove me wrong. Finally, a welcome sign. We're here! We're finally here! At first, Roswell is just another town. Concrete spills across desert; there are chain stores, fast-food joints and a few too many cars. My eyes are peeled for a visitors center. Then, a boxy little building right on the main drag. Barely inside, I spurt out, "Where's the UFO museum?" Just three blocks up, a very nice lady answers. "Oh, I am so excited. Where's the crash site?" It's 20 miles outside of town, she says. It's just a sign. Do we plan to eat lunch in town? We should try the Crash Site Cafe. "There's a Crash Site Cafe? That's awesome!" She hands us a map and highlights the places we want to see, plus four other Roswell museums that have nothing to do with aliens. We park a block from the UFO center. Out on the sidewalk, I squeal. Laugh out loud. Point. Jump up and down. The folks of Roswell have an incredible sense of humor. A brass alien peeps over a store awning. Silver saucers sit atop several others. Green, inflatable aliens peer out of almost every window. Across the street, there's a coffee shop called Out of This World. The storefront is painted in a solar system mural. Drink machines are covered in space ships and extraterrestrials. Street lamp fixtures are painted with alien eyes. McDonald's Playland is enclosed by a big, chrome disk. "Look! Look!" I shout. Crazy has come to Roswell in jeans and a T-shirt; she is a blonde twentysomething with awe in her eyes and camera in hand. Inside the museum, two older gentlemen offer a greeting. Hundreds of people from all over the world have visited in just the last few weeks, according to maps covered in thumb tacks and cleared each month. Amazing. The first exhibit details an "Incident" timeline. Here I read dozens of affidavits from witnesses who saw or heard or knew somebody who saw or heard. A model alien gazes from a glass case. There are copies of old newspaper clippings from around the country, photographs and personal accounts. Pictures of purported UFOs. "That's the one I saw!" I say when I spot a saucer-shaped disk. Close by is a triangular UFO outlined in red lights. It's identical to the object I saw that second night at my childhood home. Over the years, my crippling fear wore into mild fascination. The turning point came some months after my sightings, when yet another nightmare of backyard aliens sent me flying into my mother's room. I had another dream, I'd said after nudging her awake. What if they come get me? Locks wouldn't keep them out. I bet we couldn't shoot them. We couldn't stop them like a regular intruder. In a soft, sleepy voice she told me that if they were out there, we couldn't do anything about it. Worrying myself sick wouldn't change anything. I'm standing at a crash site excavation exhibit as I remember this exchange. I smile. Never once had my mother called me a liar or a high-strung adolescent who'd imagined it all. My friend and I spend an hour downtown, going in and out of gift shops that sell all things alien. Hats, T-shirts, shot glasses stamps and plush and plastic aliens. I buy a couple of bags of memorabilia. I eat a turkey sandwich at the Crash Site Cafe. It's decked out in murals, alien-head planters and space fabric. Inflatable extraterrestrials hang over each table. Menu items have names like Encounter of the Third Kind and Flying Saucer. There are a few families and couples among us. None wear foil hats. One last stop We leave the next morning while it's still dark out. Albuquerque is four hours north and we've got a plane to catch. But there's one last thing I want to do. We park just short of a tall, rusting metal sign. For all the controversy and complexity the crash still stirs, its marker is deceptively simple. UFO Crash Site I mill around cinnamon-colored earth dotted in low, wind-whipped brush. An orange sun rises over the lonely, silent desert. I am a tiny speck out here. A tiny blip in the universe. Once I get back to Virginia, I'll ask my mom if she remembers my alien obsession. She does, she'll tell me. She'll confide that she saw something above the field that spring, too. Dotted in lights, it hovered for a few moments before vanishing in the night. She says she kept quiet because I was already scared to death. I take a picture of the sign. What did we see back then? And what really happened on this place where I stand? Roswell, I think, is not so much a place for answers. Nor is it a centripetal force for nut cases. Roswell is a one-time destination for a 24-year-old who once saw something and wondered, a place for a grown-up girl who still watches for lights in the sky.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Area 51's 50th From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:01:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:01:29 -0400 Subject: Area 51's 50th Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3313227&nav=168YZZoF May 7, 2005 Area 51: UFOs George Knapp Investigative Reporter It's hard to believe now, but not too many years ago, few people outside of Nevada had ever heard of Area 51, the secret military base that turns 50 years old this month. All of that changed in 1989 when KLAS-TV aired a series of reports about alleged alien technology being tested in and around the Groom Lake facility. The UFO stories changed Area 51 forever, and spawned all sorts of spin-offs. I-Team Investigative Reporter George Knapp is the guy who first broke the UFO tales back then and is here now with an update. For better or worse, those Channel 8 stories did put Area 51 on the map. The first time George Knapp read about UFOs at Area 51, it was in the pages of the Las Vegas Review Journal back in the mid '80s. The paper reported it as a mere rumor. KLAS-TV reports a few years later made quite a splash, even internationally, and Area 51 has never been the same. The reason for all of the attention is a man who said he worked on flying saucers. Dennis said, "There were 9 flying saucers, flying discs..." A live interview with the shadowy Dennis in the spring of 1989 was the beginning of the end for Area 51's anonymity. Dennis, a pseudonym, claimed to be working on a top-secret project involving flying saucers of extraterrestrial origin. In November of '89, the true identity of Dennis was revealed. Bob Lazar, former government scientist, said, "Physical contact with another intelligence could be the biggest event in history. It's real and it's there." Bob Lazar said he was hired by the Navy to work at a facility called S-4, adjacent to Papoose dry lake, south of Groom Lake. Several hangars were built into a mountainside, he said, and inside each hangar was a flying saucer. Lazar continues, "They were all different, as if they got the assortment pack." The story set off a stampede. UFO enthusiasts took bus trips to the outskirts of Area 51, staged saucer watches, told even wilder tales about alien beings running amok at Groom Lake. Media outlets poked fun at the so-called saucer nuts, and at Lazar, but in the years that followed, every major news organization in the world visited or wrote about the base. TV specials aired in many countries. Tens of thousands of visitors trekked to the base to see for themselves. In nearby Rachel, Nevada, the town closest to Area 51, residents recognized a good thing. The Rachel Bar and Grill became The Little A'le'inn, plastered its walls with UFO photos, put a few clever doo-dads and eye catchers outside, and began selling alien merchandise. Pat Travis, owner of The Little A'le'inn, says, "I have candles, patches, pins, coffee cups, badges, licenses, shot glasses..." - along with post cards, posters, cookie jars, and alien spoons - "mini playing cards, guitar straps, sunglasses. You name it, we've got it." They have books too, including this one by Area 51 gadfly Chuck Clark. Clark says, "Yeah, it still sells. I keep it up to date with changes as necessary." The Las Vegas Stars baseball team became the Las Vegas 51's. There's an Area 51 rock band, video game, dance troupe, and fireworks company. Oh, and alien jerky stands. The base has been featured in numerous TV dramas and a movie or two. Area 51, the base that didn't officially exist, has become a household name all over the world, to the chagrin of the so- called cammo dudes who have to keep trespassers out. The notoriety inspired the State of Nevada to dedicate the Extraterrestrial Highway, the only one of its kind on this planet, anyway. While critics think its all nonsense, a lot of people have seen glowing objects over the base. True, some of the photos are probably secret craft made in the USA, but a few look and act like, dare we say it, flying saucers. The vantage points once used to look at the base have been seized, but skywatchers still catch a glimpse now and then of something strange. Chuck Clark said, "Every once in awhile there'll still be a sighting, one of the weird objects moving in that air space." Several other people have come forward in the years since Lazar and have told the I-Team bits and pieces of the same story. But after Lazar's reputation was so thoroughly pummeled, none of the other witnesses were willing to appear on camera or let us use their real names. These days, Lazar is alive and well in a western state and still stands by his story.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 04:12:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:19:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >with a balcony. The text says: >"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object >in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, >Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? Hello Luis: I Googled up all sorts of stuff. It looks like 'geneseo' is a Japanese word, so that led nowhere. No luck with other combinations either. Since the location is 'near' Geneseo, IL, it might be listed here or elsewhere by another place name.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:01:56 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:22:14 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:12:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:25:27 -0300 >>Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:03:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>>I am afraid that you and your fellow Mexican UFO >>>esearchers are being made fools of with sometimes >>>sophisticated and complex balloon releases. >>>If I saw complex fast movement, circling, darting, >>>then I would be more inclined to put the UFO >>>moniker on these videos. >>I am afraid it is not that simple, James. >>I have watched quite carefully the videos and read a few >>reports and witness's accounts of the "flotillas", and I am >>inclined to believe that _some_ of them definitely have >>no easy explanation. If any. They simply defy logic in >>all terms. >Okay. You say some of them, then you say maybe _none_ of them >have an easy explanation. Exactly which videos do you think have >an easy explanation? >>Sure, I certainly agree with the fact that there are >>involuntary misunderstandings of some images, that >>ended up included as genuine flotillas, and some >>voluntary hoaxs, perpetrated by people taking advantage >>of the situation. It is a natural thing. >I would first find out who is the author of each of the videos >and examine this person's reputation and credibility. Was the >author asked to film the video by someone else? Was the object >pointed out by someone else for the author to film? >>However, to simply rule all the flotillas as either hoaxes >>or genuine UFO fleets is a big mistake. Each case has to >>be analyzed separatelly, to start with. Then, take the >>ones which defy explanation and analyze them as group, >>observing and registering their common behavior, shapes, >>sizes, flight patterns etc. >If you wish to devote you time to this, fine. No one is stopping >you. We all have different filters. The problem is that there is >alot of sensationalism and hype which, although it may play well >on Telemundo, would not be respectible in a scientific journal. You bet we have different filters, James. For instance, you seem to have a preconceived idea of just whatever comes south of the border. The way you mention Telemundo and other Latin media is a proof of that. I, on other have, have no problem in seeing good material shown in bad program, in any country, as long as I get to take a very close look at them after. Here in Brazil we have great cases found first by the worst kind of media there is, and then, when we have the chance to talk to the experiencers and witness, we do our job. And, of course, apply our filters. >If you want to make money, then by all means distribute UFO >fleet videos or UFO hieroglyphics videos. If you want to explain >it, then hunker down and do the legwork and make sure you got >all the data you can to verify the video before placing your >reputation on it. But then, what sells to audiences of people >who want to believe (and perhaps take national pride in) is >UFOs, not analysis of UFOs. On the contrary, James. Neither Jaime Maussan, nor Santiago, Daniel or I have made a cent with this new Mexican material. Jaime isn't selling that, nor am I. On the contrary, I am having some good expenses down here in Brazil contracting good personel to convert, adapt and publish the material in our website www.ufo.com.br and applying some money as well to increase the bandwidth of it, so everyone can see that. The material has all been shown to everyone absolutely for free. As a matter of fact, all material in our website is entirely free. We have a team of people working on the website and being paid to post and publish all sorts of material entirely for free (including over 400 pages of official Brazilian UFO docs that we have managed to get). And we get an average of 14,000 hits per day, with consumes a lot of bandwidth. I wish you were more informed about the details of my working before judging it. >After the Campeche UFO video fiasco, which some people still >stubbornly refuse to believe was oil rig burnoff flares, I would >hope folk would have learned its better to do analysis up front. >Ah, but it isn't the analysis that counts, is it? Its the glory >and fame and hype! Easy, James. Please do not generalise, as this is one of the biggest problem of the UFO researchers. To be honest, I don=B4t know anyone, not even the Mexican UFO researchers, questioning that _some_ of the lights detected and registered in Campeche are oil rig burnoff flares, maybe more than expected (or desired by a few people). However, are _all_ of the lights detected and registered in Campeche just oil rig burnoff flares??? I have my questions. Filters? Maybe. >Again, if you want to go through one video at a time, we can do >it. But the burden is on the presentor of the video to prove it >isn't what it appears to be, obvious balloons. Again, you seem to be applying more filters than required. And again, you come up to a generalization. I have seen that you question Maussan=B4s role in all this and that you question, of course (who wouldn=B4t?), Arturo Robles Gil past reputation. But I am afraid that the personal questions of these individuals must be lest behind if we intend to do a serious and impartial job. Robles Gil wasn=B4t the only one to film the objects on April 11. There were other people, is other locations, who do not know each other. Are they all lying? Maybe, but we only will know if we talk and interview them, and if we get to analyse the circunstances of the footages. No condenm them first. Maussan, on other hand, has not been the only one to release the footages, and this is basically what he did: released the videos and let researchers investigate them, let people decide what they are. Well, you don't like Mauss=E1n and Robles, it is pretty obvious. But they are only the messengers. And because you don't like the message you do not need to hurt the messengers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:33:59 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:52:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Gonzalez >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 04:12:23 -0700 >Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >>Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >>compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >>on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >>with a balcony. The text says: >>"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object >>in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, >>Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >>I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? >I Googled up all sorts of stuff. It looks like 'geneseo' is a >Japanese word, so that led nowhere. No luck with other >combinations either. >Since the location is 'near' Geneseo, IL, it might be listed >here or elsewhere by another place name. >Any chance there is a date? even an approximate one? ----- Source: http://www.geneseo.il.us/modules/wfsection/ Welcome to Geneseo, IL USA The City Council, Mayor, Superintendents and staff of the City of Geneseo would like to welcome you to the community. You will find Geneseo to be a great place to live, educate your children and raise your family. Please feel free to visit, write or call City Hall for any information that may be necessary to help make your transition here an easier one. Our number is (309)944-6419 and our address is 101 S. State Street, Geneseo IL 61254. Our staff will be more than happy to assist you in any way that we can. For more information on the City of Geneseo, browse these pages
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 7 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:37:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:55:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch >From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:01:22 EDT >Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >>Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >>compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >>on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >>with a balcony. The text says: >>"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object >>in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, >>Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >>I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? >Location. Georgia, exact location not given >Date: 1940 Time: unknown >An engineer named Rex Ball came upon a mysterious underground >installation operated by small Oriental-looking men in coveralls >and a few American military officers. When he was caught in one >of the tunnels, one of the officers issued the curt command, >"Make him look like a nut!" He woke up in a field, uncertain >whether his experienced had been real or a dream. >HC addition # 3101 >Source: John Keel, The Mothman Prophecies Type: E or G? >----- >This is the only reference I found on Rex Ball, I wonder if it >is the same thing? Keel never mentions Illinois Hello Albert: Good work my good man! This completely explains my frustrations trying to find this messy reference. "somewhere in Georgia" means nowhere in the *U* Database. Some unknown date in 1940 [or any other year], same thing. Add the two together, and you have a 100% probability that the report will never ever ever get into my catalog. Richard Nixon will rise from the dead and win a third term as president before I list a case like that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 8 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:50:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:44:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 04:12:23 -0700 >Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >>Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >>compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >>on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >>with a balcony. The text says: >>"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >>I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? >Hello Luis: >I Googled up all sorts of stuff. It looks like 'geneseo' is a Japanese word, so that led nowhere. No luck with other combinations either. >Since the location is 'near' Geneseo, IL, it might be listed here or elsewhere by another place name. >Any chance there is a date? even an approximate one? Hello again Luis: With the possible year [1940] kindly kindly provided by Alberto Rosales, I dug through my extensive database of 8 (eight) cases for all of 1940. None of those match at all. I am beginning to wonder if this is another "Yellow Falls, Texas" story.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 8 Re: Bad News About Karl Pflock - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:35:32 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:47:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Bad News About Karl Pflock - Boone >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:32:06 -0700 >Subject: Bad News About Karl Pflock >In the last issue of Saucer Smear, Karl Pflock (author of what >IMHO is the best book on Roswell) reveals at: >http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v52/ss050325.htm >----- "My 'mysterious', affliction is mysterious no longer. On February 11, I was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Cehrig's disease. There is no cure (yet) for this inevitably fatal condition." <snip> That's sad news but with the advances in medicine it wouldn't surprise me if in not time there'll be a cure. He'll have to hang in there and postulate for the best.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 8 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:52:58 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>>>As I have already shown, Peter, the Hills's memories of the >incident were already incompatible with the conscious testimony, >and in a very serious way. For example, Barney remembered seeing >the alien's face within touching distance - an image >disconnected from everything, including his sense of the time in >which the more distant CE3 of conscious recall was occurring. >The anomalies Walt Webb noted and couldn't comprehend are >consistent with an incident that both was more dramatic and took >longer than the puzzled Hills could reconstruct from the initial >account. >Webb dealt with the anomalous, puzzling details by rationalizing >them away. Hohman and Jackson smartly grasped that the clue to >the case was _in_ the anomalous details - even without realizing >that there were previous, deeply obscure cases of missing time >in the close-encounter literature. >History, of course, has proved that they were right. The >missing-time phenomenon has been repeatedly demonstrated, over >time and space, as one of the most common elements of the >abduction experience. If it hadn't been the Hill case that >opened ufologists' eyes to this curious aspect, it would have >been another just down the road, and probably not very far down >that road. Yes. Unlike Walter Webb who was a mainstream scientific ufologist, Hohmann and Jackson, who had at least one foot in the realm of contacteeism and folk ufology, were not _entirely unpredisposed_ to believe in alien abduction; the general idea of alien abduction, and aliens being responsible for missing people etc was already around in folk ufology. I don't think that Hohmann and Jackson were just passive recorders however; it's there influence which later sets Betty on the road to becoming a semi contactee for example. Right at the beginning they come up with these strange ideas about nitrates, and I think their role is crucial in persuading Betty that her nightmares are real, and there was this period of real as opposed to subjective missing time. The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the essentially subjective nature of the experience. My impression of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_, the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect, can only be understood in the context of the totality of their lives, and the times in which they lived. Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging all the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, micro sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete disorientation and hallucination reported by night travellers ( the Irish stray sod for example), all the way up to dissociative episodes, fugue states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and other neurological events, and surely in some cases the pills and the booze, to say
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 8 Re: Bad News About Karl Pflock - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:40:00 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:55:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Bad News About Karl Pflock - Allan >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:32:06 -0700 >Subject: Bad News About Karl Pflock >In the last issue of Saucer Smear, Karl Pflock (author of what >IMHO is the best book on Roswell) reveals at: >http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v52/ss050325.htm >"My 'mysterious', affliction is mysterious no longer. On February >11, I was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Cehrig's disease. There is no >cure (yet) for this inevitably fatal condition. Most ALSers >shuffle off this mortal coil three to six years after diagnosis, >though a good proportion carry on for ten years or so, and a few >much longer (physicist Stephen Hawking has been living with ALS >since the 1960s). I'm in the care of Dr. John Chapin, an ALS >expert at the University of New Mexico School of Medecine, in a >program conducted in cooperation with the Muscular Distrophy >Association's ALS Division. I will soon begin participating in a >clinical trial of a drug that has been very effective against >ALS in laboratory mice. Let's hope it works as well or better in >humans. If not, my backup plan is to become the first recorded >case of spontaneous remission. (MJ-12 and the Elders of Ufoology >won't get rid of me this easily!)" Let us all hope Karl recovers sufficiently to be able to continue contributing as much to ufology as he has done in the past. I agree his Roswell book is the best of the bunch. For the benefit of British Listers, perhaps I should add that Lou Gehrig (not Cehrig) was a professional baseballplayer who died of the affliction in 1941.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 8 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 05:05:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:58:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Hatch >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:33:59 EDT >Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 04:12:23 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? <snip> >Source: http://www.geneseo.il.us/modules/wfsection/ >Welcome to Geneseo, IL USA <snip> Yes, I found Geneseo in Illinois State. What I need is a date so I can look in the database and try to find the case by some other place-name. I must have hundreds of sightings for Illinois. Best - Larry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:00:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:25:27 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a >number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the >essentially subjective nature of the experience. My impression >of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the >flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something >which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the >early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze >pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_, >the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause >his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect, >can only be understood in the context of the totality of their >lives, and the times in which they lived. > >Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging all >the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, micro >sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete disorientation >and hallucination reported by night travellers ( the Irish stray >sod for example), all the way up to dissociative episodes, fugue >states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and other neurological >events, and surely in some cases the pills and the booze, to say >nothing of those made up to cover up extra marital affairs (as >seems to have been the case in more than one British abduction). Peter: The abduction phenomenon has been around for some time, 1951 in the 'modern' era and further back if anecdotal accounts are to be trusted. One can't dismiss the 'experiences' of people like the Hills, or in the UFO circle here, people like John Velez and Will Bueche. These are not insane people, nor hoaxers, nor persons inclined to add material to their experience which isn't there in the first place. When Velez and Bueche say they had an "experience," one has to accept that what happened to them had some tangibility. I don't know what "abductions" are, but Velez and Bueche have some idea, but most people are so quick to dismiss such accounts that I imagine they won't (or can't) explain it exactly to skeptics or persons who seem to be calling them liars, or nuts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:55:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:27:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear Peter and patient and gentle Listfolk: >>History, of course, has proved that they were right. The >>missing-time phenomenon has been repeatedly demonstrated, over >>time and space, as one of the most common elements of the >>abduction experience. If it hadn't been the Hill case that >>opened ufologists' eyes to this curious aspect, it would have >>been another just down the road, and probably not very far down >>that road. >Yes. Unlike Walter Webb who was a mainstream scientific >ufologist, Hohmann and Jackson, who had at least one foot in the >realm of contacteeism and folk ufology, were not _entirely >unpredisposed_ to believe in alien abduction; the general idea >of alien abduction, and aliens being responsible for missing >people etc was already around in folk ufology. Alien abduction is not a contactee concept, of course - pretty much the opposite, actually. The idea of abduction was not there in "folk" or serious mainstream ufology in the early 1960s (as anyone who was there can attest, Peter's alternative-reality claims notwithstanding). Nobody had a clue to the occurrence of any such thing, and that's why Walter Webb didn't grasp what Barney Hill was trying to tell him. Your historical sense in these matters is pretty much nonexistent, Peter. Those interested in how ufologists conceived of CE3s - then called "occupant reports" - in the years before the Hill encounter are referred to pp. 218-20 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. >I don't think that Hohmann and Jackson were just passive >recorders however; it's there [sic] influence which later sets Betty >on the road to becoming a semi contactee for example. Right at >the beginning they come up with these strange ideas about >nitrates, and I think their role is crucial in persuading Betty >that her nightmares are real, and there was this period of real >as opposed to subjective missing time. As I have said more than once, Barney's testimony to Webb is entirely consistent with amnesia and temporal anomaly and actually does not make sense without it - as Webb himself, whose expertise on what the Hills said and thought I, like any sensible observer, would take over yours any day, recognized as soon as the missing time aspect was uncovered. >The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a >number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the >essentially subjective nature of the experience. And of course precisely the opposite could as easily be argued. It's the absence of detail that defines contactee literature and makes it, unlike the testimony of the Hills and other abductees, so fatally uncompelling. Since you have already made up your mind that all extraordinary UFO phenomena, including abduction reports, are "essentially subjective," _anything_ - plus its opposite - proves that to you. Not, however, to the rest of us, who feel no need to assert certainty when nothing in the available evidence supports such presumption in either direction Perhaps when Bill Chalker and his team of genetic scientists complete their DNA analysis of abduction-related hair samples, we will be able to speak from a position of relatively surer knowledge. The preliminary indications certainly look intriguing and promising. Till then, I am happy to be a practicing agnostic about the ultimate epistemological status of the abduction phenomenon, including the Hills's experience of it. By the way, I am amused to note that you conflate "apparitions" and "hallucinations" as if the two terms were synonyms. Again, an enormously complex issue is turned cartoon in service to your beloved disbelief tradition. >My impression >of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the >flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something >which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the >early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze >pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_, >the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause >his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect, >can only be understood in the context of the totality of their >lives, and the times in which they lived. That last is about as blatantly unfalsifiable a hypothesis as I have ever seen. It also can be applied to anybody and to _any_ personal experience of _any_ kind. _Everything_ we experience and feel "can only be understood in the context of the totality of [our] lives, and the times in which [we live]." That tells us precisely nothing about the reality or unreality of any given perception - unless, that is, one is grasping desperately for an unfalsifiable claim to hurl at an unwelcome experiential possibility. Beyond that: All rank speculation, of course, of the sort that an armchair and a vast ocean's separation seem, unfortunately, only to encourage. Unless, of course, you're trying to tell us that you're practicing remote viewing. >Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging all >the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, micro >sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete disorientation >and hallucination reported by night travellers ( the Irish stray >sod for example), all the way up to dissociative episodes, fugue >states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and other neurological >events, and surely in some cases the pills and the booze, to say >nothing of those made up to cover up extra marital affairs (as >seems to have been the case in more than one British abduction). All rank speculation, of course, devoid of any empirical evidence. I invite all those who have actually _investigated_ abduction cases - or experienced the phenomenon personally - to judge how persuasive the random guesses above strike you. You may also wish, as I've urged once or twice before, to read psychologist Stuart Appelle's comprehensive review of psychological explanations and their empirical inadequacies, published in JUFOS a few years ago and available from CUFOS ("The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and Evidence," Vol. 6, 1995/1996: 29-79). The difference between Appelle's approach and Rogerson's is the difference between scientific inquiry and literary criticism. The rest of us actually are trying to understand and eventually, we hope, to provide a nonspeculative explanation for the dynamics of a phenomenon as yet unexplained. Missing time - which was experienced here and there, though not noticed or remarked upon by investigators and ufologists, well before the Hills's encounter with it - remains a consistent feature of a mystery which the likes of Peter Rogerson remain determined to reinvent via wing-flapping; thus, they are enabled, in their own
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 11:40:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:28:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars - Smith >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:07:31 -1000 >Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:07:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses & Seminars >Thanks for your humor. It's good to have a laugh over the >ridiculousness of the situation we face. Some are convinced >we should be doing exopolitical analysis over the secret >agreements, etc., that exist between ETs and 'shadow government' >agencies (my position), and others convinced we need more data >before we conclude that UFO's are intelligently guided and that >ETs are visiting our planet (your position?). Yes, I think knowing that UFOs are truly alien would be terrific. So few scientists are willing to put their neck on the line to do real field research. Videos from "witnesses" of balloonlike UFOs offer very little except hype to the issue. The shadow government concept you propose, which may be true, seems harder to prove that alien UFOs. If you can do it without these secret groups bumping you off because you know too much, giving you cancer (as some people seem to point out happens to UFO researchers), or having mind control tactics used on you, then you are a miracle worker. There is just so much baggage to deal with if you go in that area. It seems better, cheaper, simpler and more reliable to just build a passive radar/infrasound tracker with stereo imaging to PROVE the off- planet abilities of UFOs. >On March 1, the Bravo test of a thermonuclear >device occurred, the largest ever in US history. If the >Eishenhower administration were mind controlled, the test >probably would not have happened. I guess we have little to fear from such lame aliens that can't even intimidate a mere human goverment. >As for ET's incompetence in >flying interstellar craft here, there seems to be a lot of >evidence that crash retreivals are caused by a number of >factors, some natural others artificial, eg., the Earth's >fluctating magnetic fields, military testing of radar systems, >etc. Oh, yes. Here we go again with the oddly inefficient aliens with there so-so technology that can only take so much without the engines buckling. We have gone through this before on the board and there are two sides which cannot meet. >My experience is that swimming with dolphins is an excellent way >to prepare for contact with off world races, or at the very least >not freak out when suddenly immersed in an off world 'alien' >environment. I would recommend swimming with sharks. Alien behavior, typified by various interaction accounts, seems to have the same amoral, cold characteristics. >Evidence points to ETs >being as multifaceted as your 'typical American' so I'd >recommend some training in the protocol of communicating and >interacting with ETs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:10:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:30:05 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:01:56 -0300 >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:12:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>If you wish to devote you time to this, fine. No one is stopping >>you. We all have different filters. The problem is that there is >>alot of sensationalism and hype which, although it may play well >>on Telemundo, would not be respectible in a scientific journal. >You bet we have different filters, James. For instance, you seem >to have a preconceived idea of just whatever comes south of the >border. I had not preconceived notion when I saw the Campeche FLIR video. I thought at the time. Holey cow! This is it, finally a video from a respectable source, with radar confirmation, a lots of good witnesses (pilots!, military!), with lots of good camera data (field of view, azimuth, elevation, cooridnates!!!). Who could ask for anything more! And these things really looked weird and you had to say, hear was a truly exellent UFO video and should shake up the whole world! Well, we found out what happened after a little analysis. So I am more jaded after that little event. This has nothing to do with being from south of the border. What is it with all this nationalism of UFOs? Kyle King pointed out to me and I wholy agree with him that this concept of nationalism has no place in UFO research but seems to be some sort of "race card" being used by foreign UFO promoters to get the recognition they want. The country of origin does play a role. If a government is corrupt, so it can't train its military or provide it with good equipment, then that is relevent. If the country is technically, educationally backward, then doesn't this affect the reliability, quality of the UFO data? >The way you mention Telemundo and other Latin media is a >proof of that. I, on other have, have no problem in seeing good >material shown in bad program, in any country, as long as I get >to take a very close look at them after. Here in Brazil we have >great cases found first by the worst kind of media there is, and >then, when we have the chance to talk to the experiencers and >witness, we do our job. And, of course, apply our filters. I haven't seen enough "analysis" of these videos. Given the paucity of supporting data, I am less inclined to do so than the Campeche case. >>If you want to make money, then by all means distribute UFO >>fleet videos or UFO hieroglyphics videos. If you want to explain >>it, then hunker down and do the legwork and make sure you got >>all the data you can to verify the video before placing your >>reputation on it. But then, what sells to audiences of people >>who want to believe (and perhaps take national pride in) is >>UFOs, not analysis of UFOs. >On the contrary, James. Neither Jaime Maussan, nor Santiago, >Daniel or I have made a cent with this new Mexican material. >Jaime isn't selling that, nor am I. On the contrary, I am having >some good expenses down here in Brazil contracting good personel >to convert, adapt and publish the material in our website >www.ufo.com.br and applying some money as well to increase the >bandwidth of it, so everyone can see that. The material has all >been shown to everyone absolutely for free. As a matter of fact, >all material in our website is entirely free. We have a team of >people working on the website and being paid to post and publish >all sorts of material entirely for free (including over 400 >pages of official Brazilian UFO docs that we have managed to >get). And we get an average of 14,000 hits per day, with >consumes a lot of bandwidth. I wish you were more informed about >the details of my working before judging it. You have advertising. More hits means more revenue. More supporters that are drawn into your group to offer memebership dues means more money. I am not trying to follow a money trail. However, logic indicates that having hype and sensationalism will provide more inflow of money than no hype and sensationalism. If you or the gang are not personally making money, fine. Who am I to say you are or are not? >>After the Campeche UFO video fiasco, which some people still >>stubbornly refuse to believe was oil rig burnoff flares, I would >>hope folk would have learned its better to do analysis up front. >>Ah, but it isn't the analysis that counts, is it? Its the glory >>and fame and hype! >Easy, James. Please do not generalise, as this is one of the >biggest problem of the UFO researchers. To be honest, I don't >know anyone, not even the Mexican UFO researchers, questioning >that _some_ of the lights detected and registered in Campeche >are oil rig burnoff flares, maybe more than expected (or desired >by a few people). However, are _all_ of the lights detected and >registered in Campeche just oil rig burnoff flares??? I have my >questions. Filters? Maybe. I think its clear that ALL the lights of the hyped FLIR video _are_ burnoff flares. A few of the individual lights are unknown, but you and I know the hyped part fo the video was the groups of lights and they ALL have been shown to be burnoff flares. >>Again, if you want to go through one video at a time, we can do >>it. But the burden is on the presentor of the video to prove it >>isn't what it appears to be, obvious balloons. >Again, you seem to be applying more filters than required. And >again, you come up to a generalization. I have seen that you >question Maussan's role in all this and that you question, of >course (who wouldn't?), Arturo Robles Gil past reputation. Actually, I personally did not question Maussan's role (he seems clearly to me to be the hypemaster not an analyst) or Robles Gill reputation (someone gave me the Gill data and I included this data in a posting). >But I >am afraid that the personal questions of these individuals must >be lest behind if we intend to do a serious and impartial job. It s fundamental in dealing with the 100's of UFO videos and photos to understand where they came from. For this reason, the Campeche original source was impressive, although that Maussan distributed it was questionable. >Robles Gil wasn't the only one to film the objects on April 11. >There were other people, is other locations, who do not know >each other. Are they all lying? Maybe, but we only will know if >we talk and interview them, and if we get to analyse the >circunstances of the footages. No condenm them first. Who said they were lying. If someone releases balloons and lots of people film them, then they all may be innocent dupes. >Maussan, >on other hand, has not been the only one to release the >footages, and this is basically what he did: released the videos >and let researchers investigate them, let people decide what >they are. I wonder at the benefit of his methodology. He seems better at posing questions than answering them. But he can ride the tide of hype as he promotes the latest "UFO" footage. >Well, you don't like Maussan and Robles, it is pretty >obvious. But they are only the messengers. And because you don't >like the message you do not need to hurt the messengers. I never said I don't like them. Whenever I mentioned them in my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:13:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:31:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Smith >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 03:39:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:47:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >If I may add my two cents worth... >I spent many years engaged in reflection and discussion about >this topic. Below is one of the articles I wrote, years ago, to >express my views: >No matter how many theories we may conjure about which ones >are the "good aliens" and which ones are "bad", the bottom line is >we _do_not_ know. It is wiser, therefore, to proceed with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:32:36 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:04:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >James, it's nice that you got rid of all those strings you had >previously postulated. You are now assuming that: >(a) The hypothesized balloons, now buoyant, have risen above the >planetary boundary layer (PBL), where small-scale turbulence is >lacking. This implies either a shallow PBL extending only a very >few hundred feet above the ground, or rather large balloons or >both, such that the video shows the orbs in good individual >resolution and at the same time over a large expanse of some 80 >"balloon" diameters in width. Possible. Thanks. >(b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at >the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a >video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their >rates of rise would all vary a few percent from each other at >least, due to their slightly different volumes of inflation. If >rising on the average at 8 ft/sec., some would be rising at a >speed nearer 7.5 ft/sec., e.g., others at 8.5 ft/sec. Over a >minute's time, their vertical displacements would have randomly >changed relative positions by some 30 feet or more -- by many >balloon diameters. Nothing like that shows up on the video. >Hence the witnesses could remark that the objects didn't behave >like balloons. You are correct. There would be a slight difference, but I have not calculated the difference. I will check your calcs when I have time. Do you think temperature effects play a big role here or not? >So as a believer in the balloon hypothesis, your task is now >simpler. Without having to resort to a multitude of strings >between balloons, and without worrying how to get no-lift >balloons up several hundred feet, all you need do now is inflate >and release several hundred buoyant balloons, video-tape them, >and show the results of a one-minute video of them. No photo- >shop artistry allowed! Or, perhaps you should assume further >that the video camera was aimed directly overhead. I can try to use 3DMax to simulate this kind of thing, at least initially. My question is what is the field of view, camera elevation. Of course its hard to confirm these things without a nice Campeche like FLIR on screen printout. Also, does any detailed wind layer data exist for that area? Odd things can happen when you are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: Area 51's 50th - Scheldroup From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:02:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:38:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Area 51's 50th - Scheldroup From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> Date: Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: UFO UpDate: Area 51's 50th >Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada >http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3313227&nav=168YZZoF >May 7, 2005 >Area 51: UFOs >George Knapp >Investigative Reporter >Bob Lazar, former government scientist, said, ><snip> http://www.unitednuclear.com/about.htm http://web.ukonline.co.uk/darrenp/ufo/good4.htm Lazar: I have two masters degrees; one's in physics; one's in electronics. I wrote my thesis on MHD, which is magnetohydrodynamics. http://www.serve.com/mahood/lazar/fl-edu.htm From the Pre-Sentence Report, dated 7/27/90, for Lazar's pandering conviction. This was as related by Lazar to the Parole/Probation officer preparing the report: 8-76 - high school graduate, Westbury, New York (verified) 1978 - Bachelor of Science Degree in Physics and Electronic Technology, Pacifica University (correspondence university). 1982 - Masters of Science in Physics, MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts. 1985 - Masters of Science in Electronic Technology, Cal Tech, California. Unfortunately, Pacifica University has proven difficult to locate. A number of national college directories were consulted, including those listing vocational and correspondence schools. A few of the guides were "The College Blue Book", "American Universities and Colleges" and "The McMillan Guide to Correspondence Study". Nowhere was there a Pacifica University listed. The State of California Department of Education's Council for Private, Post-Secondary and Vocational Education was contacted. They regulate all vocational and correspondence schools within the state. They informed me that they had no listing for a Pacifica University within California, either now or in the past. http://www.pacifica.edu/about_careers.html Pacifica is an accredited graduate school offering degree programs in the fields of Psychology and Mythological Studies. Electronic Technology? http://www.mit.edu/education/ MIT Electrical Engineering and Computer Science http://tinyurl.com/dbn2v Caltech Electrical Engineering Suggested Class Schedule:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: London UFO Conference - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 19:44:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:39:03 -0400 Subject: Re: London UFO Conference - Pope Living The Field will be holding their 2005 conference on Saturday June 11 in London, at the Friends Meeting House on Euston Road. The conference is entitled The Scientific Evidence for UFOs. I'll be speaking, along with Timothy Good, Richard Haines, Dr Vladimir Rubtsov and Dr Viktor Zhuravlev. The ticket prices are steep, but the conference is aimed less at ufologists and more at the scientific community, academia and the media. It is, I believe, the most ambitious UFO conference to have been put on in the UK since the conferences run by the late Graham Birdsall. The following hyperlink will take you to the conference website:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Those Pesky Believers From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:23:15 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:13:28 -0400 Subject: Those Pesky Believers List, Surely Michael Malin is mistaken. The object he has spotted is obviously a natural geological formation on the planet (see picture with article). I don't understand how supposedly reasoned scientists can come up with these wild and extreme claims for seeing man made objects on Mars when perfectly rational lay people like George Filer, who might be expected to rant and rave, are the absolute picture of rationality and logic. The white patch referred to on the photograph which it is claimed could be the parachute is clearly no such thing and is a preposterous contention. Even the untrained layman's eye can see that it is simply a gaggle of Martian school children on their way to school. And no doubt Malin is claiming this thing flew there from Earth! Perhaps if Mr. Filer was to reschedule a fly past with his "Truth Teller" satellite and re-photograph this object from another angle, this stupid pipe dream of Malin's will be put to rest at last. I now await the brickbats from the "believers" who constantly soil this area of science with their ridiculous claims about methane and other alleged anomalies on the planet when they can obviously see the natives enjoying the benefits of their oxygen based atmosphere, just like us on Earth. Their attempts to show that somehow Mars is "different" are nothing short of distressing. Stuart Miller ----- Source: CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/05/06/mars.lander.ap/index.html Friday, May 6, 2005 Mars Lander Wreckage Found Nearly six years after NASA's Mars Polar Lander vanished during a landing attempt on the Red Planet, a scientist said he has spotted what appears to be wreckage of the spacecraft. The observation came during a re-examination of grainy, black- and-white images taken by the orbiting Mars Global Surveyor, which searched for the probe with no success in 1999 and 2000. "The observation of a single, small dot at the center of the disturbed location suggests that the vehicle remained more or less intact after its fall," wrote Michael Malin, president and chief scientist of San Diego-based Malin Space Science Systems, which operates the camera aboard Global Surveyor. Malin makes his case in the July issue of Sky & Telescope magazine. A copy of his article was posted Thursday on the magazine's Web site. Global Surveyor will take higher resolution images later this year in an attempt to confirm the missing lander's location. "It looks intriguing," said Michael Meyer, the lead scientist for NASA's Mars Program. He said the images show just one possible location of the missing Polar Lander and more images are needed. The $165 million Polar Lander was headed for touchdown near Mars' south pole on Dec. 3, 1999, when contact was lost. A NASA team concluded a rocket engine shut off prematurely, causing the spacecraft to plummet about 130 feet to almost certain destruction. A re-examination of images of the surface of Mars taken after the Polar Lander's disappearance show a distinct white patch that could be a parachute. A few hundred meters away, scientists noted a dark area, possibly made from rocket blast marks, with a tiny white dot in the center that could be the lander. The images pinpointing Polar Lander's possible location jibes with NASA's theory of the spacecraft's demise, Malin said. Scientists at his firm decided to review the old Polar Lander images after last year's successful landings of the twin Mars rovers, Spirit and Opportunity. The rovers used a combination of rockets, parachutes and air bags to cushion their landing. The Polar Lander used a similar system during its unsuccessful approach. Its disappearance was a blow to NASA, which had lost the lander's $125 million sibling spacecraft, the Mars Climate
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:36:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:14:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a >number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the >essentially subjective nature of the experience. "Impossible levels of detail" are also characteristic of "flashbulb" perception and memory, which are associated with emotionally vivid, threatening or shocking experiences. The flow of time appears to stop and is replaced by a series of vivid snapshots. >My impression >of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the >flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something >which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the >early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze >pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_, >the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause >his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect, >can only be understood in the context of the totality of their >lives, and the times in which they lived. This is psychobabble. PTSD flashbacks do not produce projective visual hallucinations. The nervous system doesn't work like that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 UFO Video Capture Equipment/Software From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:11:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:17:11 -0400 Subject: UFO Video Capture Equipment/Software Anyone heard of or used the product at the following link? It sounds pretty useful. They have alot of other software suitable I think for satellite, meteor, sprite and UFO observation and plenty of interesting clips and images. Too bad much of it is in Japanese! I imagine it would work well with balloons too. http://www65.tok2.com/home2/SonotaCo/ Excerpt: "UFOCapture is a Motion Detect Time Shift Video Capture software." "UFOCapture automatically starts recording at a few seconds before the start of a movement, and ends a few seconds after the end of the movement." "UFOCapture inputs video signals via DirectX video capture devices, such as USBcam, DVcam, PCI-video input board, PCI-TV- tuner." "Using PCI-video input board, any video source ,such as IR-Video camera, Ultra Hi Sensitivity Video camera can be used." "UFOCapture runs on Windows XP/2000/Me (DirectX9.0 or later , and over 2GHz CPU is required)."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9 PRG/X-Conference Press Release - 05-09-05 From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 23:14:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:20:45 -0400 Subject: PRG/X-Conference Press Release - 05-09-05 PRG Paradigm Research Group May 9, 2005 Press Release [Note: coincides with 4th anniversary of 2001 Disclosure Project press conference - see www.disclosureproject.com] Washington, DC - The 2nd Annual Exopolitical Expo - X-Conference 2005 - was concluded on Sunday, April 25. The event was produced by Paradigm Research Group. Twenty-six speakers and panelists presented to 450 attendees over three days. It is a unique event which focuses on the political, governmental and social implications of extraterrestrial-related phenomena. It is produced by PRG as part of the emerging activist movement seeking to end a government imposed truth embargo regarding extraterrestrial-related phenomena. The Keynote Address was given on April 23 by retired Monsignor Corrado Balducci, who spoke in the United States for the first time regarding the religious implications of extraterrestrial beings. Balducci is the highest ranking Catholic official to publicly speak to the question an extraterrestrial presence engaging the human race. His views arose from his personal research and do not represent an official position of the Holy See. Nevertheless, they have drawn much interest and debate worldwide. During the same evening the 2005 PRG Awards were issued as listed: Political Courage: James Earl Carter, Jr. (2004: Steven Schiff) Courage in Journalism: Jaime Maussan & Billy Cox (2004: Sarah McClendon) Hall of Fame (living): Walter H. "Walt" Andrus, Jr. (2004: Stanton T. Friedman) Hall of Fame (deceased): Dr. James E. McDonald (2004: Dr. J. Allen Hynek) Disclosure: Monsignor Corrado Balducci (2004: Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso) These awards are given to honor individuals who have demonstrated courage, perseverance and commitment to the pursuit of truth, particularly as applied to the facts known and withheld regarding an extraterrestrial presence engaging the human race. Paradigm Research Group calls upon all those who have held or who aspire to leadership of this nation to match these qualities. In particular it calls upon Presidents Carter and Clinton and Senator Hillary Clinton to fully discuss their experience with this issue. And it calls upon former White House chief of staff and presidential aide, John Podesta, to put the issue of extraterrestrial-related phenomena and the truth embargo front and center on the agenda of the Center for American Progress, which is heavily backed by George Soros, a powerful advocate for open government. Contact: Stephen Bassett Executive Director 202-215-8344 ________________________________________________________ Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul URL: www.paradigmclock.com Cell: 202-215-8344 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Alfred's Odd Ode #387 From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:19:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:42:24 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #387 http://www.alienview.net/avtoyoud.jpg Alfred's Odd Ode #387 (May 9, 2005) Different Drums You're disgusted with the pace of things? You're impatient for a change? You suspect your blighted leadership's less obliging, more insane? You feel as though you've been betrayed? You suffer disrespect? You tolerate a government not remotely circumspect? You perceive there is conspiracy? You discern it lives and breathes? You gather that it's been employed to bring us to our knees? You 'know' that there are UFOs? You've seen them for yourself? But culture seems opposed to one who tries to find ones self? You cannot trust your mainstream? You smell its artful lie? There's much pretense for foolishness there's nothing in your sky? You're revolted by religion? Do the "Fundies" make you sick? Do invented gods and devils do the bidding of these pricks? Is 'science' your social arbiter? Is it god or mal-used tool? Do you let it _dictate_ policy? Do you mourn its turgid rule? Do errant posers profit ? Do they prosecute their 'need'. To they defecate on shoulders of the giants of our breed? Are you sickened by society? Abhor the status quo? Are you fed up with a culture that precludes your right to know? Are you trifled by inferiors? Do they caper, leap and prance? Do the ghouls of...'re'-revision... ply the mis-steps of that dance? Are you sick and tired of being played for a clueless, hapless tool? Are you disrespected flotsam, slighted chump... affronted fool? Do you sense a new reality? Are you outraged and contentious? Are you finished with indignity? Are you _ripe_ for the seditious? Then snub their hijacked networks, friend. Refuse their print and graph. Reject their explication, puerile prose, or photograph. Eschew convenient 'history'. Avoid contrived 'accounts'. Disbelieve authorities of 'mainstreams' who won't count. Read _forbidden_ indexes. Think outside their box. Review the un-explorable. Explore the closed and locked. Question all authority. Demand what's just and fair. Leaping up from bleeding knees you find the guts to dare! Speak the truth to power. Let them know your thoughts. Voice your true convictions, friend, before you mourn their loss! The future's near upon you, and it's speeding as it comes, but you might _be_ prepared for that... if you marched to _different_ drums. What drums are those, some sneer and smirk 'secure' in centrist views? Well, that which finally comes from you, and that's a muse _you_ choose.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:00:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:44:14 -0400 Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Smith >From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:39:17 +0000 >Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:40:14 -0400 >>Subject: Re: New Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>I look forward to the opportunity of closely studying the >>complete new video footage which will soon be made available to >>all. >I must give you credit on this one. That's the attitude, review >the evidences, facts and testimonials, study every piece of >footage and analyze every element. Make calculations and >meassures and consider important issues as climate, wind etc. Good luck on obtaining all this data. An excellent job for UFO researchers "south of the border". You need details of camera angles and fields of view too. >Interview experts in aeronautics as well as advertisement flying >devices showing the videos to know their professional opinions. Fine. But then, the Campeche FLIR video had alot of experts look at it and form false conclusions. "Its a fireball... bolide... top secret military aircraft... alien spaceship....." >Then and here's the most challenging part: Make a re-creation >with balloons for comparison and evaluation and at the same time >film birds formations. Then study their behavior in the sky and >reach a conclusion based in facts and evidences. This proposals >is what we expect to try to understand what these things in the >sky are. You missed the option of computer simulations. Because of cost and time and difficulty in duplicating balloon deployment conditions, computer simulations might be better than your re- creations. >You know Nick there is a certain individual that does the >opposite and just speaks-speaks-speaks claiming the same thing >over and over without presenting or contributing any substantial >evidence, test or solid proof to sustain his allegations. We >call him "The Balloon Man" and you know very well who he is. >Well, his claims mean nothing-zero-nada. Maybe you can enlighten us all on the "Balloon Man". These veiled insults without giving names is quaint. Has it ever occurred to you that you might have a little more credibility if you assume something is NOT a UFO and try to prove it IS using analysis and facts and data as opposed to the other way around. Actually, all I see here is the "assume its a UFO and thats it" approach. >As long as this person don't provide a legitimate recreation >with actual balloons, ( wich you and me know very well will >never-ever do ) most required evidence then the "Balloon >Man" is just a fraud himself. I think computer simulations should be a useful next step in attempting to duplicate the videos. Of course, since the reputations of the videographers is in question, it may be useless to do so (the use of painted glass in front of the camera). We are not talking about video from the military here, but from people whose bonafides are not substantiated. This is the job of reliable UFO researchers from south of the border, not us gringos. >We are sick and tired of these opportunists that infiltrate >the ufologic community from time to time trying to make >their own scenario stealing the lights of those who >dedicated most of their lives to the serious and >professional research. I must >warn our collagues to be aware of charlatans like this one, >perfect example of cheap demagogy who just talks and talks like >a failed preacher to an empty audience. Enough for these ufology >parasites. Are you speaking for a group or do you have royal blood when you say "we"? What do you mean infiltrate? Is it not permissible to have opinions "south of the border"? I thought at least some of those countries were democratic. "Stealing the lights"? Ah, you want fame! Well, all you need to do is be good hypemasters, publicity seekers by dumping alot of UFO videos out there with little or no backup data. I would never dump a UFO video to the public, claiming it was a UFO, unless I had done as much research as I could on it. You talk about serious and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 The Black Vault & Current History Channel Projects From: John Greenewald - The Black Vault <bounces.nul> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:43:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:53:25 -0400 Subject: The Black Vault & Current History Channel Projects The Black Vault Newsletter March 09, 2005 In This Issue: The Black Vault and Current Projects with The History Channel The Black Vault Radio Network The Black Vault and Current Projects with The History Channel NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - March 09, 2005 - The Black Vault's creator John Greenewald, Jr. begun his career in television production with three one-hour documentaries on The History Channel late last year. Since then, he has worked with the Discovery Health network, and has moved back to The History Channel producing two more one-hour documentaries. Jeffrey Willerth, long time partner of Greenewald's venture in The Black Vault Television Series, is the Senior Producer on these new shows. Willerth has long been a believer in the proper representation of the subject, with the continued unbiased and fair representation of the UFO field. Both shows are slated to run in the 4th quarter of this year, and provides some of the best programming on UFO's yet to air on The History Channel. UFO Hunters - a one-hour documentary on the people of UFOlogy - was created and co-written by Greenewald. UFO Hunters explores the different aspects of people in UFOlogy, including their special niche which makes them who they are in the UFOlogical history books. UFOs and the White House, another one-hour documentary, was co- created by Greenewald last year, and is also an informative, thought-provoking program. This show explores the Presidential documents which have surfaced relating to UFOs, from the Roosevelt administration to today's President George W. Bush. Keep watch on The Black Vault for the air dates and more projects in the works! http://www.blackvault.com {http://www.blackvault.com} The Black Vault Radio Network http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html Thank you all for your continued patience on the growth of The Black Vault Radio Network (BVRN). When I created this network, I knew it would be a tough haul, both mentally, and technologically. As you can see by the above press release, The Black Vault has become quite popular throughout the world, and has spawned a new career for me in television production. With that said, its hard to balance both worlds. I am the only one here at The Black Vault. It gets tough to balance my full-time work at The History Channel, but to balance a radio network, my own television series which is continally developing, and a site with nearly 200,000 government documents on it -- it gets rough! In April of this year, I travelled over 14,000 miles. Across country twice and a lecure in New Mexico and Washington D.C.. I found myself visiting 5 states in three different time zones with my travels last month. I love my country, and realize it more each time I get into an airplane -- but it was tiring! So, as you can see, BVRN has suffered slightly due to this, but am working out ways that this will not happen in the future. Shows will continue shortly, and hopefully thereafter each week. Technologically, it is a bit tough as well. The thousands and thousands of downloads on BVRN has been sort of a test to make sure when I am at full speed, I can handle this traffic. The Black Vault's server passed with flying colors! So, watch for more updates SOON! Should get some more stuff out this week.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:36 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:37:20 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >>Webb dealt with the anomalous, puzzling details by >>rationalizing them away. Hohman and Jackson smartly grasped that >>the clue to the case was _in_ the anomalous details - even >>without realizing that there were previous, deeply obscure cases >>of missing time in the close-encounter literature. >>History, of course, has proved that they were right. The >>missing-time phenomenon has been repeatedly demonstrated, over >>time and space, as one of the most common elements of the >>abduction experience. If it hadn't been the Hill case that >>opened ufologists' eyes to this curious aspect, it would have >>been another just down the road, and probably not very far down >>that road. <snip> >Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging >all the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, >micro sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete >disorientation and hallucination reported by night travellers ( >the Irish stray sod for example), all the way up to dissociative >episodes, fugue states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and >other neurological events, and surely in some cases the pills >and the booze, to say nothing of those made up to cover up extra >marital affairs (as seems to have been the case in more than one >British abduction). To all It seems to me, on the contrary, that the fact that engineers Hohman and Jackson were the first to realize that the Hills had a big missing time, of at least two, and perhaps three hours, when the Hills were quite sure not to have stopped more than five minutes or so on that road, and the fact that they were very upset by this finding, tends to reinforce the authenticity of their story. At least they did not invent that important part of it ! Now, I wish to come back to the possible influence of SF and UFO stories. It has been often argued that SF films and TV series could have influenced Betty and Barney Hill. This argument has been developped at some length by Kevin Randle, Estes and Cone, in their book of 1999, The Abduction Enigma. They cited several films, of which I found the dates. I also found some posters giving an idea of their tone, in a nice SF picture book called Who Goes There? 1950's Horror & Sci-Fi Movie posters and Lobby cards (Bruce Hershenson, June 2001). The films, cited by Randle et al, released before 1961, are (pp. 122, 123): 1953: Invaders From Mars 1954: Killers From Space 1955: This Island Earth 1956: Not Of This Earth 1956: Earth Versus Flying Saucers 1956: It Conquered The World 1957: Invasion Of The Saucer Men Well, the posters of all these films show the aliens as dreadful monsters or grotesque figures, which could hardly have inspired the the Hills to invent their story ! On the other hand, they do not mention the film quoted by Peter Rogerson on April 30: Village of the Damned (1960), based on the Wyndham's novel, The Midwich Cuckoos, of 1957. In effect, that film tells an entirely different story. At no time do we see a UFO and alien abductors. The only aliens are the nice looking, blond hair children (hybrid? we don't know) born after the mysterious event. Nothing to do with the Hill story. Other films are cited by Randle et al, about possible influence on Betty and Barney Hill, but they come out after 1961: 1965: The Night Caller 1966: Mars Needs Women The TV series, The Invaders, with David Vincent, started in January 1967, after the release of the Fuller book. Since they come after the Hill story, so let's forget them here. To be honest, there is a more troubling case, mentioned by Randle et al (p. 127), who quote a Martin Kottmeyer article in Magonia: an episode of the TV series, The Outer Limits, The Bellero Shield, first broadcast on February 10, 1964, just two weeks before Barney Hill remembered wrap-around eyes in a regression session with Dr Simon. According to the authors, there were aliens like that in the episode, and it could have influenced Barney. (I would like to have a confirmation of that). Well, it may be correct that it would have influenced Barney at that time, although Betty and Barney claimed never to see such films, but it remains that it came long after their story of september 19, 1961. What strikes me, on the contrary, is the precision of their description of the UFO and occupants, very soon after their sighting, in their letter to Donald Keyhoe, dated September 26, 1961. And they stuck to it. And all investigators found them sincere, including Dr Simon. Now, there are the hairy dwarfs stories in Venezuela, mentioned by Keyoe in his book The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, which Betty Hill read just after the event. But, again, these are so different from their story that they don't seem relevant at all here. Another aspect quoted by these autors is the possible influence of Betty's sister, who saw a ufo before their story. But that was height years before: a pretty long time, it seems, to trigger such an intense story. In all, the theory of the Hills being influenced by SF and UFO stories seems to me not to be able to explain their strange
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Roswell Native Agrees Aliens Fixed Kentucky Derby From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:33:11 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:40:02 -0400 Subject: Roswell Native Agrees Aliens Fixed Kentucky Derby Klaatu Plays The Ponies... Roswell Native Agrees Aliens Fixed Kentucky Derby I'd recently purchased the DVD of The Day The Earth Stood Still, the 1950's Robert Wise sci-fi classic. I recalled the scene where Klaatu, the alien visitor had to demonstrate his powers by stopping the use of electricity to selected devices. Impressive, but could you imagine if he had fixed the horse races? That would definitely have gotten the attention of the world's leaders. Gambling is afterall more important than whether the kilowatts flow. So I see this story where winning Kentucky Derby jockey Mike Smith, a native of good ol' Roswell, NM jockey joked about the wee folk from beyond and their part in his history making win on the 50-1 odds winning race horse Giacomo. Best, Greg ----- Source USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/derby/2005-05-08-notebook-roswell_x .htm?csp=34 Roswell Native Smith Feels Force By Gary Mihoces and Tom Pedulla USA Today Now it can be told. Given the out-of-this-world finish by Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo, maybe it's no surprise jockey Mike Smith is from Roswell, N.M., well known in UFO lore. Smith, who was all smiles in the barn area Sunday morning, described Roswell as "close to where the aliens live around." Might those aliens have given him a lift on his first Derby victory in 12 rides? "I felt like I was floating, so they must have," he said. Edge of tomorrow: Third-place Derby finisher Afleet Alex probably will be transported Wednesday to Pimlico Race Course in Baltimore to prepare for the Preakness Stakes, trainer Tim Ritchey said Sunday. "You can't dwell on the past. If you do, you'll go crazy in this game. There is always tomorrow," said Ritchey, who is based at Delaware Park in Wilmington. "We're looking forward to the Preakness. It's a little shorter race. It's in our backyard. And if he runs with the same courage, they'll have to outrun him. ... We're definitely going to try to win the Preakness. I think he has a heck of a shot." Welcome mat: Trainer Bobby Frankel figures the 1-2 finishes by Giacomo and Closing Argument guarantee long shots won't shy away from the Derby in coming years. "One thing we know for sure, a 20-horse Derby from now on," Frankel said. "You heard people say, 'This horse doesn't belong. This horse doesn't belong.' That will ensure a 20-horse Derby for the next 10 years until people forget about it." Streak ends: One of the most impressive streaks in Derby history ended as Pat Day continues to recover from March 30 hip surgery. Day, 51, had held out hope of riding in his 22nd consecutive Derby when the operation was performed. But the surgeon found more damage than expected as he repaired cartilage in the jockey's right hip.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Secrecy News -- 05/09/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:38:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:42:03 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/09/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 44 May 9, 2005 ** CIA DISCLOSES ITS 1963 BUDGET ** ACCESS TO PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF SOUGHT ** APPEALS COURT REJECTS SIBEL EDMONDS CASE ** A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN IRAN ** ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENAS AND NATIONAL SECURITY LETTERS (CRS) ** FRUS ON SOUTH ASIA CRISIS, 1971 ** ESTIMATIVE PRODUCTS ON VIETNAM, 1948-1975 ** ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (NII) CIA DISCLOSES ITS 1963 BUDGET Compelled by an extraordinary court order, the Central Intelligence Agency disclosed the amount of its 1963 budget under the Freedom of Information Act in a letter published today. "As you know, 'the CIA budget figure for 1963' was $550 million," wrote Janice Galli McLeod, an attorney representing CIA in the FOIA lawsuit Aftergood v. CIA (DC District Case No. 01-2524). CIA contends that historical intelligence budget figures constitute an "intelligence method," no matter how many decades may pass, and that they are therefore exempt from disclosure under the FOIA. But after FAS showed that the CIA budget figure for 1963 had been quietly released at the National Archives 15 years ago, a federal court ruled that CIA's continued refusal to disclose that number under the FOIA was unlawful. (Other historical budget figures still may be legally withheld.) On April 4, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina ordered the CIA to disclose its 1963 budget, the first time that release of an intelligence budget figure has been ordered by a court of law. (A 1997 lawsuit to compel disclosure of the 1997 intelligence budget total led to CIA's release of that figure -- $26.6 billion -- without a court order.) "In accordance with the Court's Order, I can reiterate this $550 million figure to you, and I can of course also attach a copy of the Cost Reduction Program report, which you yourself submitted to my client and which contains this figure," Ms. McLeod wrote. See her May 4, 2005 letter here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia050405.html ACCESS TO PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF SOUGHT Like the intelligence budget, the President's Daily Brief has a peculiar totemic status in the U.S. intelligence bureaucracy, such that intelligence officials claim that in principle the Briefs must never be released to the public no matter how dated they become. (Never mind that quite a few have in fact been released.) A remarkable legal drama is now unfolding as scholars seek access under the Freedom of Information Act to particular issues of the President's Daily Brief (PDB) dealing with Vietnam policy. The dispute exposes with unusual clarity the conflicting perspectives of historians and intelligence bureaucrats on historical document disclosure. Bill Moyers, a former aide to President Johnson, noted that he had read many of the requested PDBs and "I see no reason why information that was sensitive at the time should not [be] reviewed and considered for public release today." Mr. Moyers submitted a sworn declaration on behalf of UC Davis historian Larry Berman, who has requested release of several PDBs. Not so, wrote CIA information review officer Terry N. Buroker: "In addition to containing information *about* intelligence methods,... the PDB itself *is* an intelligence method, to be protected under the National Security Act." Another interesting feature of the FOIA lawsuit is that it is being litigated in California rather than in Washington, DC where judicial deference to the CIA position has become all but automatic. A wealth of background information on all sides of the debate is available from the National Security Archive here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/pdbnews/index.htm APPEALS COURT REJECTS SIBEL EDMONDS CASE The DC District Court of Appeals has rejected an appeal by FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, whose case had been dismissed after the government invoked the state secrets privilege. The Appeals Court ruling, issued on Friday without explanation or commentary, seems to mark an expansion of the state secrets privilege or at least a refusal by the Court to inquire deeply into the grounds for its application. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/se-ddca050605.pdf The Justice Department elaborated on its view that "this case cannot be litigated except by reference to privileged information" in an April 22 letter to the Court: http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/se-doj042205.pdf A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN IRAN Iranian research on nuclear engineering, nuclear safety and related aspects of nuclear science and technology has left a considerable footprint in the published literature. For a compilation of recent publications by Iranian researchers, see "Iranian Nuclear Science Bibliography: Open Literature References" by Mark Gorwitz, May 2005: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/nuke/biblio.pdf ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENAS AND NATIONAL SECURITY LETTERS (CRS) The use of administrative subpoenas and national security letters to compel testimony or production of documents in foreign intelligence investigations is examined in a recent report from the Congressional Research Service. See "Administrative Subpoenas and National Security Letters in Criminal and Foreign Intelligence Investigations: Background and Proposed Adjustments," April 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32880.pdf For an abbreviated version of the same report, without footnotes or citations, see "Administrative Subpoenas and National Security Letters in Criminal and Intelligence Investigations: A Sketch," April 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22122.pdf FRUS ON SOUTH ASIA CRISIS, 1971 The latest volume of Foreign Relations of the United States (FRUS), the official record of U.S. foreign policy, documents Nixon Administration policy immediately prior to and during the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971. The full text of the volume, published last week, is here: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/ ESTIMATIVE PRODUCTS ON VIETNAM, 1948-1975 The National Intelligence Council has published a collection of declassified U.S. intelligence estimates concerning Vietnam "from the post-World War II breakup of colonial empires to the Communist takeover of Saigon in 1975." For more information about the collection, much of which is available online, see: http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_foia_vietnam.html ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (NII) The new Pentagon position of Assistant Secretary of Defense for Networks and Information Integration -- ASD(NII) -- is defined in a Department of Defense Directive issued last week. The Assistant Secretary, who is also the DoD Chief Information Officer, is responsible for Pentagon information policies, communications, command and control, non-intelligence space matters, and much more. The ASD (NII) replaces the former ASD (C3I) position, which has been disestablished. See DoD Directive 5144.1, "Assistant Secretary of Defense for Networks and Information Integration/ DoD Chief Information Officer (ASD(NII)/DoD CIO)," May 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/d5144_1.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:28:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:45:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Jamieson >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 03:39:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:47:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:59:58 -0700 >>>Subject: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >>Good and evil depends on perspective in this matter. Aliens may >>think it good to completely control humans, harvest their organs >>or genes, whatever. They may think humans evil since they >>destroy their world and perform alien autopsies and such. ><snip> >If I may add my two cents worth... >I spent many years engaged in reflection and discussion about >this topic. Below is one of the articles I wrote, years ago, to >express my views: >Why Goes There <snip> >No matter how many theories we may conjure about which ones are >the "good aliens" and which ones are "bad", the bottom line is >we _do_not_ know. It is wiser, therefore, to proceed with >extreme caution in _all_ encounters and negotiations with beings >of unknown origins and intentions. We have much more to lose by >accepting all we are told because we 'want' to believe than by >remaining curious yet cautious. >*************** >I wrote another article of a similar nature which can still be >found at: >http://www.geocities.com/igufon/candy.html Great discussion (and points), James and Amy. I think the best data (so far as I can tell) comes out of caseloads developed by Hopkins and Jacobs. Looks like there's a good investigative effort in Australia, associated with a Bill Chalker, that seems to provide good clues also. And, the data doesn't suggest an open and transparent approach
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Cosmonaut Info? From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:17 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:47:28 -0400 Subject: Cosmonaut Info? Dear Friends and Colleagues: I need the e-mail address, postal address and phone or fax numbers of the Russian cosmonauts Alexander Baladin and Musa Manarov. I appreciate any help I can get.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Angler Convinced Of UFO Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:51:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:51:30 -0400 Subject: Angler Convinced Of UFO Sighting Source: The Advocate - Burnie, Tasmania, Australia http://ta.harrisgroup.com.au/news.cgi?type=1&id=182662 May 10, 2005 Angler convinced of UFO sighting An unidentified flying object in the sky above Squeaking Point has baffled a Burnie man. John Walker yesterday said he was now "a believer" unless someone could explain what he saw. Mr Walker was fishing alone about 10a.m. on Wednesday when he saw a grey bullet-shaped object moving across the sky. "I don't know what you would call it," he said. " It was about 100 to 150 feet off the ground, (and) the size of a house. "I didn't hear a noise. "It just moved along nice and slow and I probably watched it for 15 minutes, then all of a sudden it disappeared." Mr Walker said the object had silver spots on it, but no lights. He said it was a beautiful day, with no wind. "It definitely wasn't a weather balloon," he said. "I've seen those before. "It's out of the ordinary." Mr Walker said he was usually sceptical about flying saucer theories, but he planned to report his experience to the Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre. Centre investigator Keith Roberts yesterday said he had not received any similar reports, but he would like to hear from Mr Walker. Mr Roberts said the nearby Devonport Airport might have some
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Area 51's 50th - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:49:10 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:52:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Area 51's 50th - Boone >Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada >http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?>S=3313227&nav=168YZZoF >May 7, 2005 >Area 51: UFOs >George Knapp >Investigative Reporter >It's hard to believe now, but not too many years ago, few people >outside of Nevada had ever heard of Area 51, the secret >military >base that turns 50 years old this month. How ironic that Area 51 and Disneyland share their 50th anniversaries! If one flipped the scripts and Area 51 were a theme park and Disneyland a top secret base. Actually if Area 51 were to be a theme park it would probably make more money than Disneyland. It's somewhat near Las Vegas and isn't that difficult to visit. Add some flying saucer rides and food courts, actors dressed up like aliens and even hand out lunch boxes with 'Top Secret' emblazened on them. The licensing would be phenomenal like the '50's Zorro marketing campaign. I know alot of actors and former Disney folk who would jump at the chance. Somebody call Donald Trump.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:54:11 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:04:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>(b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at >>the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a >>video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their >>rates of rise would all vary a few percent from each other at >>least, due to their slightly different volumes of inflation. If >>rising on the average at 8 ft/sec., some would be rising at a >>speed nearer 7.5 ft/sec., e.g., others at 8.5 ft/sec. Over a >>minute's time, their vertical displacements would have randomly >>changed relative positions by some 30 feet or more -- by many >>balloon diameters. Nothing like that shows up on the video. >>Hence the witnesses could remark that the objects didn't behave >>like balloons. >You are correct. There would be a slight difference, but I have >not calculated the difference. I will check your calcs when I >have time. Do you think temperature effects play a big role here >or not? >>So as a believer in the balloon hypothesis, your task is now >>simpler. Without having to resort to a multitude of strings >>between balloons, and without worrying how to get no-lift >>balloons up several hundred feet, all you need do now is inflate >>and release several hundred buoyant balloons, video-tape them, >>and show the results of a one-minute video of them. No photo- >>shop artistry allowed! Or, perhaps you should assume further >>that the video camera was aimed directly overhead. >I can try to use 3DMax to simulate this kind of thing, >at least initially. Nope. There's nothing like the real thing. And balloons are cheap. You need to go through all the motions that a would-be hoaxer would, tying off all 400 or so balloons, etc. >My question is what is the field of view, camera elevation. Of >course its hard to confirm these things without a nice Campeche >like FLIR on screen printout. Also, does any detailed wind layer >data exist for that area? Odd things can happen when you are >using a high zoom, such that you don't really need to be looking >Also, can you please tell me exactly which video you are writing >about so we can coordinate. One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting all balloons up there and in close, but random positions, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Area 51's 50th - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:33:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:00:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Area 51's 50th - Friedman >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:02:28 -0500 >Subject: Re: Area 51's 50th >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>Date: Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:01 AM >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Area 51's 50th >>Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada >>http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3313227&nav=168YZZoF >>May 7, 2005 >>Area 51: UFOs >>George Knapp >>Investigative Reporter >>Bob Lazar, former government scientist, said, >><snip> >http://www.unitednuclear.com/about.htm >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/darrenp/ufo/good4.htm >Lazar: >I have two masters degrees; one's in physics; one's in >electronics. I wrote my thesis on MHD, which is >magnetohydrodynamics. >http://www.serve.com/mahood/lazar/fl-edu.htm >>From the Pre-Sentence Report, dated 7/27/90, >for Lazar's pandering conviction. This was as related by Lazar >to the Parole/Probation officer preparing the report: >8-76 - high school graduate, Westbury, New York (verified) >1978 - Bachelor of Science Degree in Physics and Electronic >Technology, Pacifica University (correspondence university). >1982 - Masters of Science in Physics, MIT, Cambridge, >Massachusetts. >1985 - Masters of Science in Electronic Technology, Cal Tech, >California. >Unfortunately, Pacifica University has proven difficult to >locate. A number of national college directories were consulted, >including those listing vocational and correspondence schools. A >few of the guides were "The College Blue Book", "American >Universities and Colleges" and "The McMillan Guide to >Correspondence Study". Nowhere was there a Pacifica University >listed. >The State of California Department of Education's Council for >Private, Post-Secondary and Vocational Education was contacted. >They regulate all vocational and correspondence schools within >the state. They informed me that they had no listing for a >Pacifica University within California, either now or in the >past. >http://www.pacifica.edu/about_careers.html >Pacifica is an accredited graduate school offering degree >programs in the fields of Psychology and Mythological Studies. >Electronic Technology? >http://www.mit.edu/education/ >MIT >Electrical Engineering and Computer Science >http://tinyurl.com/dbn2v >Caltech >Electrical Engineering >Suggested Class Schedule: >http://www.phys.uregina.ca/ugrad/coop/electronics.html A few facts should be added to Lazar's mythology. He was in the bottom third of his high school class and had one science course: chemistry. This essentially rules out admission to MIT. I checked the Physics Dept., the registrar's office, the office that kept commencement lists, the office that kept Masters thesesis. Nobody ever heard of Bob. I talked to the legal counsel. There is no way to wipe out somebody's records. Others have looked at all the yearbooks... no Lazar. Cal Tech never heard of him. Bob mentioned a William Duxler as having been his physics prof at Cal tech. I located Dr. Duxler who never taught at Cal Tech only at Pierce Junior College where Bob did take a course from Duxler... at the same time he was supposedly at MIT 2500 miles East of Pierce (San Fernando Valley in Calif). Nobody who can get into MIT (Bob couldn't) goes to Pierce JC. Somebody with an MSc from MIT wouldn't be accepted for an MSc program at Cal Tech, only a PhD program. Bob has never shown a diploma or a transcript even from his high school, also no resume. When asked what year he received his MS from MIT he said "let me see now, I think it was 1982". Nobody with an MS from MIT wouldn't know what year. There had to be a Professor's name on the MS and a copy of the thesis on file... nothing. He is a total fraud. Bright and glib. When he went bankrupt he listed his occupation as a self-employed film processor... many debts were connected with film processing equipment. The Los Alamos phone book indicates he was employed by Kirk Meyer not by the Lab.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 01:34:34 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:03:33 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:55:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100 >>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >You may also wish, as I've urged once or twice before, to read >psychologist Stuart Appelle's comprehensive review of >psychological explanations and their empirical inadequacies, >published in JUFOS a few years ago and available from CUFOS >("The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and >Evidence," Vol. 6, 1995/1996: 29-79). The difference between >Appelle's approach and Rogerson's is the difference between >scientific inquiry and literary criticism. Unfortunately Appelle does not give much in the way of statistics to answer the recent questions here on UFO UpDates as to the prevalence of abductions involving normal daily activities versus those where the abductee was sleeping or having a dream or dream-like experience and/or sleep-type paralysis effects. As Stan Friedman said at the start of this particular sub-thread there are "literally hundreds" of abductions during normal activities and not sleeping or in "horizontal" activities. Bullard (1998) gives some statistics but they are a bit confusing. He surveys his own studies of 1987 and 1995. The 1987 study involved about 300 abduction cases about 103 of which I gather were detailed enough to develop statistics. The 1995 study involved about 1,700 abductions but we're not given the exact number statistically analyzed, only told it is "half." I assume that means about 850 cases. Bullard gives no statistics on how many abductees were sleeping or dreaming. Instead he gives 23% "taken from bedroom" in the 1987 survey and 57% in the 1995 survey. Does that mean 77% of 103 and 43% of 850 were of abductees engaged in ordinary non- sleep and non-dreaming activities, or a total of about 444 "ordinary activity" abduction cases? Apparently a UFO appears in only 60% of the 1987 case study or 45% of the 1995 study. Still that is a sizeable percentage with an actual UFO instead of a potentially dream-like experience. But I cannot be quite sure of these somewhat confusing numbers. As I argued previously a dream-like explanation should be supported by statistics of a very high percentage of fragmentary episodic stories comprising the typical abductions. But Bullard's statistics are not cross-correlated. I can't segregate out the "ordinary activity" type abductions with real UFO's and compare them with the dream-like non-UFO cases. All I can say is that Bullard reports that 66% of his first sample (the small 103
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:33:22 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:56:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens - Boone >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:59:58 -0700 >Subject: Debating Good Vs. Evil Aliens >I noticed that Stephen Bassett suggests we continue to debate >the moral character, etc. of alleged aliens present on earth >(and reportedly interacting with us in various ways). >Is their a reliable, and sufficient, body of data to really >carry on a useful debate? <snip> It's fun to speculate but you can always narrow down motiviation to something or a group of somethings trying to survive. How they survive is interpretive via their actions but us applying a 'good' or 'evil' title is entertaining to me. It was 10 years ago when a pal of mine, a professor at a top university in Asia made us all laugh during a visit back home to the east coast where we grew up. We've known each other since Jr. high school and he's reknown for his quick wit and sarcastic bite. We were all piled into the living room like when we were teenagers watching tv. He was out voted as to the movie we were watching which was a sci-fi flick. Of course there was a battle in outer space and a villain and while we all, save he, were enthralled by the action he blurted out, " Why is there 'Evil' in outer space? What's wrong with these writers that they just have to have 'Evil' in outer space? " All of us were then rolling on the floor laughing as the absurdity hit us. He was right. We humans have to put that 'Evil' into something. Any new environment, somehow, some way we'll toss in that cliche'd villain with the henchmen and wide collar and menacing pet perched either on his shoulder or close to heel. My fried had us at his mercy as he went on cracking jokes about 'Evil' in outer space until another friend rose to her feet and retorted, " There's got to be 'Evil' in outer space or nobody would watch the damned movie or want to explore it! " He replied, " Ah! 'Evil' as motivation! That's western history for you!" We could barely get through the movie with these two going at it. Not to say there isn't 'Evil' in outer space, but shouldn't we wait before putting it there? We don't want to repeat the errors of our ancestors who found everyone 'Evil' and used it as justification for conquest and slavery. I'm sure there are civilizations where ex wives, mothers in law, lawyers, bad hair days, and beuracracy exist so I guess we can say 'Evil' would then exist. I guess the other guy's always 'Evil' cause his grass is greener.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:15:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:59:37 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 01:34:34 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >Bullard (1998) gives some statistics but they are a bit >confusing. He surveys his own studies of 1987 and 1995. I know about the 1987 study ("Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery", FUFOR) and the 1995 study seems to be "The Sympathetic Ear", (FUFOR) or are you refering to the update for the MIT Conference in "Alien Discussions"?, but can you give me the references about that 1998 statistics? >The 1987 >study involved about 300 abduction cases about 103 of which I >gather were detailed enough to develop statistics. Bullard himself distinguished: Missing time cases - 31 Vague memories or another symptons - 27 Abductions with few details - 18 Abductions with some kind of exam - 56 Abductions with aditional episodes - 47 Several abductions by the same witness - 23 (65 separate incidents) "Psiquic" abductions - 11 Voluntary visits - 9 Contactees - 5 Frauds - 3 Teleportations - 23 Kidnaps, disapparitions - 17 So, really we are speaking of 270 cases, where a lit bit more than half (144) can be considered real abductions, even though Bullard applied a less strong criteria and accepted 47 more. But there are also some errors, for example he considered the Villegas-Pecinetti 1968 case in Mendoza (Argentina) as an abduction, even though they never went aboard the UFO. Besides, this case is considered a fraud by serious ufologists there. It is curious that Bullard only mentions 3 frauds. Yours,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:19:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:00:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Smith >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:17 -0300 >Subject: Cosmonaut Info? >I need the e-mail address, postal address and phone or fax >numbers of the Russian cosmonauts Alexander Baladin and Musa >Manarov. I appreciate any help I can get. ------------------- http://www.collectspace.com/resources/autographs_caddresses.html Cosmonaut Addresses by J=C3=BCrgen Peter Esders All Russian cosmonauts - if not deceased - can be reached through the Yuri Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center at Star Town: "Name of Cosmonaut"/Lyotchik Cosmonavt Yuri Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre 141 160 Zvezdny Gorodok Moskovskoi Oblasti Potcha Lyotchikov Kosmonavtov Retired cosmonauts particularly still take their time since requests are forwarded to them and then return to Star City where handling still takes some time. Whereas flown Russian cosmonauts may send Official Mail, unflown cosmonauts and non-Russian cosmonauts (except for active NASA or European guest cosmonauts) have to pay for their postage. It is appropriate and polite to enclose 1 US-Dollar, 12 Roubles, or mint Russian stamps to cover return postage. ------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:26:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:02:17 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Shough >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>Also, can you please tell me exactly which video you are writing >>about so we can coordinate. >One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ >Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting >all balloons up there and in close, but random positions, and >then having them maintain those positions relative to each other >for about a minute. Jim I don't see a minute of video here but within the limits of the apalling compression quality it does appear that the objects do not change relative positions. It would be more interesting if they did. Frankly, this could be anything - a handful of beads thrown on a carpet, a video panned across a still photo of a stream of bubbles in someone's fishtank (or balloons) - or even a fleet of UFOs. Eight days ago I suggested that to reach a conclusion you needed to find accurate angular measures of the images and of the field of view in relation to the camera specs, the true angular rate of the objects in relation to "white clouds" that were said to be visible (I don't see any reference points whatever here and it's impossible to subtract evident panning motion - the individual images are far too unclear to reveal possible motion blur that might at least offer a clue) and at least some basic weather data for the time and place (assuming these can be verified). This was met by the customary silence. Maybe such work is published somewhere in Spanish, but on this list no one has even suggested that such data might be available, let alone actually investigated. James is right. We can only conclude in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:38:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:03:34 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>I can try to use 3DMax to simulate this kind of thing, >>at least initially. >Nope. There's nothing like the real thing. And balloons are >cheap. You need to go through all the motions that a would-be >hoaxer would, tying off all 400 or so balloons, etc. What do you mean "Nope"? If I can't duplicate it using a simulation, then I will likely just concede the possibility of the video being something other than balloons. If I can simulate it using a computer model, then I can vary the parameters, layout of balloons (released in one location or many locations), release times (in groups or all at once), percentage of balloon over-inflation, strings or no strings (released from a big bag or by cutting/ letting go of strings). Why the hell should I spend time and money to investigate all these variations in the real world instead of saving money by figuring these out first in the computer and then minimizing the equipment cost/time for field/reallife testing? I am not making money out of this, why should I spend my money and time anyway? Just to say I told you so?! Hardly worth it! We are not talking about a crop circle here. When I look at some of those complex crop circles it boggles the mind that anyone can hoax them. But balloon releases are different. Also, if there is a group of folk out there keen to hoax the public in Mexico and elsewhere south of the border, which it appears is the case with all the videos and occurances of balloonlike UFOs which seem to float by (originally singly, but when that failed to get attention, now in vast numbers), then they have a relatively cheap hobby. Helium, balloons, practice (how many have been released and NOT noticed?). >>Also, can you please tell me exactly which video you are writing >>about so we can coordinate. >One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ Thanks, I was looking at a different earlier one, I haven't seen this one yet. Will get back to you. >Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Those Pesky Believers - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:32 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:05:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers - Ledger >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:23:15 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Those Pesky Believers >List, >Surely Michael Malin is mistaken. The object he has spotted is >obviously a natural geological formation on the planet (see >picture with article). >I don't understand how supposedly reasoned scientists can come >up with these wild and extreme claims for seeing man made >objects on Mars when perfectly rational lay people like George >Filer, who might be expected to rant and rave, are the absolute >picture of rationality and logic. <snip> Point taken. >Source: CNN >http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/05/06/mars.lander.ap/index.html >Friday, May 6, 2005 >Mars Lander Wreckage Found <snip> Perhaps as surprising, as stated by Malin on Discovery ca's Daily Planet, is the fact that when pushed to do so the Mars Global Surveyor can get higher resolution images of a specified area on the Mars surface by a factor of three and with a reduction in signal to noise by a factor of two. This is accomplished by carefully rotating the MGS [like a tire meeting the road] at a rate sychronous with the craft's speed over the surface allowing the scanner type imager to remain on the target area longer allowing more lines to be scanned. I don't doubt that this probably is the Mars Polar Lander. But what the heck are those things that look like bushes? How about a closer look at those? We know what the MPL looks like.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:43:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:08:08 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:00:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >>The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a >>number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the >>essentially subjective nature of the experience. My impression >>of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the >>flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something >>which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the >>early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze >>pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_, >>the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause >>his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect, >>can only be understood in the context of the totality of their >>lives, and the times in which they lived. >>Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging all >>the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, micro >>sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete disorientation >>and hallucination reported by night travellers ( the Irish stray >>sod for example), all the way up to dissociative episodes, fugue >>states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and other neurological >>events, and surely in some cases the pills and the booze, to say >>nothing of those made up to cover up extra marital affairs (as >>seems to have been the case in more than one British abduction). >Peter: >The abduction phenomenon has been around for some time, 1951 in >the 'modern' era and further back if anecdotal accounts are to >be trusted. >One can't dismiss the 'experiences' of people like the Hills, or >in the UFO circle here, people like John Velez and Will Bueche. >These are not insane people, nor hoaxers, nor persons inclined >to add material to their experience which isn't there in the >first place. >When Velez and Bueche say they had an "experience," one has to >accept that what happened to them had some tangibility. >I don't know what "abductions" are, but Velez and Bueche have >some idea, but most people are so quick to dismiss such accounts >that I imagine they won't (or can't) explain it exactly to >skeptics or persons who seem to be calling them liars, or nuts. >Something has happened to credible and decent, intelligent >people. We should try to find out what it was..... Rich, Sorry but neither I nor anyone else is obliged to believe anyone's unsupported testimony on anything. Claims actually have to be demonstrated. Belief in other peoples claims in more mundane situations leads to a regular procession of people loosing their life savings every year. Something not entirely unknown in the UFO field My point is that subjective sense of missing time could be caused by a variety of causes from the very mundane to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:05:26 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:04:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>(b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at >>>the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a >>>video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their >>>rates of rise would all vary a few percent from each other at >>>least, due to their slightly different volumes of inflation. If >>>rising on the average at 8 ft/sec., some would be rising at a >>>speed nearer 7.5 ft/sec., e.g., others at 8.5 ft/sec. Over a >>>minute's time, their vertical displacements would have randomly >>>changed relative positions by some 30 feet or more -- by many >>>balloon diameters. Nothing like that shows up on the video. >>>Hence the witnesses could remark that the objects didn't behave >>>like balloons. >>You are correct. There would be a slight difference, but I have >>not calculated the difference. I will check your calcs when I >>have time. Do you think temperature effects play a big role here >>or not? >>>So as a believer in the balloon hypothesis, your task is now >>>simpler. Without having to resort to a multitude of strings >>>between balloons, and without worrying how to get no-lift >>>balloons up several hundred feet, all you need do now is inflate >>>and release several hundred buoyant balloons, video-tape them, >>>and show the results of a one-minute video of them. No photo- >>>shop artistry allowed! Or, perhaps you should assume further >>>that the video camera was aimed directly overhead. >>I can try to use 3DMax to simulate this kind of thing, >>at least initially. >Nope. There's nothing like the real thing. And balloons are >cheap. You need to go through all the motions that a would-be >hoaxer would, tying off all 400 or so balloons, etc. >>My question is what is the field of view, camera elevation. Of >>course its hard to confirm these things without a nice Campeche >>like FLIR on screen printout. Also, does any detailed wind layer >>data exist for that area? Odd things can happen when you are >>using a high zoom, such that you don't really need to be looking >>Also, can you please tell me exactly which video you are writing >>about so we can coordinate. >One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ >Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting >all balloons up there and in close, but random positions, and >then having them maintain those positions relative to each other >for about a minute. Jim, Jim, Jim, Oh how you waste your time my friend. James Smith for all his feigned pretension of honest skepticism, is quite the opposite. If Smith is able to accept the sloppy 'proof' that Mr. Franz presented recently while demanding precision and strict adherence to empirical procedure from the Mexican research community, contrary to what his mouth says, what he actually does is to prematurely arrive at conclusions and apply a double standard to everyone else. The only thing Mr. Franz duplicated in his 'experiment to prove his oil-well burn off theory' was that he was 'in' an airplane. Other than that, he's the first one to tell you that in his alleged recreation of the flight he did not follow the same course, (in fact, he was nowhere near to where the original recording was made) nor did he fly at the same heading, altitude or speed as the original flight. (Reread the preceding sentence until it sinks in.) Yet he insists that the photos he took of Oil-well fires corresponds -exactly- to the ones recorded by the military FLIR equipment. And... that abortive effort by Franz which proves absolutely nothing, is good enough for Smith to champion the theory in public while looking down his nose at anyone who may disagree. It's ordinary pre-judging, plain and simple. Bruce Maccabee met with Jaime Maussan at the Conference that was held recently in Washington. They discussed (yet again) the possibility of getting the Mexican AF to recreate the original flight, using the same plane, equipment, speed, course and altitude. Pay close attention here Mr. Smith: You can't seem to squeeze this one into your melon for some reason..... Then, and only then, after the recreation/test flight, is performed, (if) there is any _direct_ correlation between oil well burn-off fires and the original FLIR recording, will you or anybody else be able to dismiss the FLIR recording as mere heat signatures recorded from oil well burn-off. Not before. Whether you like it or not. Period. I don't know how many times this point needs to be made before skepti-bunkers in sheep's clothing (with itchy trigger-fingers) finally chill out and wait for the Mexican military to do the right thing. Until then, people who egotistically declare cases closed/solved without being able to actually prove or document it, really are better off lurking. The only thing I'm surprised at is; why this test flight has not been performed to date. It's _the_ real sticking point. They can calibrate the FLIR and a fresh recording can settle once and for all the question of oil well fires. Then maybe these alleged "honest" skeptics, cough, cough, ahem... can put their heads together and try to explain the radar target UFO that did all kinds of tricks in the air, ie; dramatically speeding up and slowing down, as it wended its way toward the city of Carmen. Case closed? I don't think so. Let em all talk, Jim. Until the military makes the test flight, the jury will still be out in on this one. In spite of all the bleating coming from certain quarters. Let em squirm, protest, demand and prejudge all they want. In the end, the truth will out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:21:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:07:38 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:43:47 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:00:44 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear <snip> >>One can't dismiss the 'experiences' of people like the Hills, or >>in the UFO circle here, people like John Velez and Will Bueche. >>These are not insane people, nor hoaxers, nor persons inclined >>to add material to their experience which isn't there in the >>first place. >>When Velez and Bueche say they had an "experience," one has to >>accept that what happened to them had some tangibility. <snip> >>Something has happened to credible and decent, intelligent >>people. We should try to find out what it was..... >Rich, >Sorry but neither I nor anyone else is obliged to believe >anyone's unsupported testimony on anything. Claims actually have >to be demonstrated. Belief in other peoples claims in more >mundane situations leads to a regular procession of people >loosing their life savings every year. Something not entirely >unknown in the UFO field >My point is that subjective sense of missing time could be >caused by a variety of causes from the very mundane to the >relatively exotic, all of which would have to be eliminated >before very exotic causes are postulated. Peter: I don't diagree with you about "unsupported testimony" - generally anyway. But having heard Velez off and on and communicating with Will Bueche (and seeing him in TV documentaries), I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. These two guys, as Mrs. Hill before them, strike me as honest to the point that they make themselves vulnerable to attacks by persons (not you ) who want to dismiss alien abduction accounts from the get-go. Some abductees, like contactees before them, are suspect, but not Velez, Bueche, or the late Mrs. Hill. And their claims are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:36:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:09:39 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Reynolds >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:38:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico <snip> >>One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >>April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >>http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ >Thanks, I was looking at a different earlier one, >I haven't seen this one yet. Will get back to you. The images in the second and third videos provided at the link above seem to be items floating in a pool or body of water. Note the "reflective" values, not the images themselves.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:57:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:10:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Smith >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:19:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Cosmonaut Info? >Cosmonaut Addresses by Jurgen Peter Esders >All Russian cosmonauts - if not deceased - can be reached
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 10 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien - Bueche From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:15:41 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien - Bueche >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:43:47 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:00:44 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>Something has happened to credible and decent, intelligent >>people. We should try to find out what it was..... >Rich, >Sorry but neither I nor anyone else is obliged to believe >anyone's unsupported testimony on anything. Claims actually >have to be demonstrated. <snip> And just as it isn't Peter's responsibility to believe anything, it isn't my responsibility as an experiencer to demonstrate or prove anything to anyone. That doesn't mean one should keep silent when they've had an experience. Reports of strange experiences may well stimulate researchers to explore different ideas about the world. To achieve that end, there is perhaps a bit of societal obligation for members of society to report to others in the society what they've experienced. That obligation isn't writ in stone or anything, but generally speaking that is how cultures advance - through some level of sharing of info. (You see a bear in the woods, you tell the other villagers). Discussion should be encouraged, so society can take advantage of the information. I mention this only because sometimes people have an impression that the experiencers themselves should be the ones to prove their case, since they're the ones who are "making claims." And what a term that is, by the way - "Making Claims" sounds like something unwelcome, doesn't it? Like "making laundry duty." Far from it. "Making claims" is part of our societal obligations. Once that's done, it is up to the rest of society as to how to engage it. In general our society has failed to do with reports of alien contact what it could. That may be sad. I feel it may have set our culture back in ways we cannot even imagine, but I have to be a realist: it isn't my responsibility to prove the existence of alternate dimensions or anything else that would likely offer proof of the aliens - because those aren't my fields. Simply put, it would be outrageous to think that everyday laymen would suddenly also have such a responsibility of "proof" on their shoulders for the sheer chance that they happened to have some experiences. Rich says "We should try to find out what it was", and indeed that is where the person's obligation to present their experience ends and the rest of the culture's responsibility begins.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Sioux Lookout Ontario Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:03:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:03:08 -0400 Subject: Sioux Lookout Ontario Sighting Source: The Chronicle-Journal - Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.chroniclejournal.com/story.shtml?id=3D27097 May 10, 2005 Another UFO Sighting Makes Website By Bryan Meadows The Chronicle-Journal A Sioux Lookout resident has reported seeing the latest unidentified flying object in the Northwest. The witness said he was standing on the town beach on April 14 at about 11 p.m. when he noticed three star-sized white objects moving across the sky south of the community. "I looked and saw a blur-rish object moving very fast... I followed the object, and realized it was three lights flying at the same velocity but not in a straight parallel formation," he said. The sighting is posted on www.hbccufo.com =97 a website that reportedly represents the Canadian UFO research community. There have been six UFO sightings since a July 12 report last year in the Dryden area where three people witnessed "low altitude bright lights tracking across the sky.=94 The website=92s other sightings in the past year: - July 14, 8 p.m. =97 A Dryden resident saw something that "burned so bright that my eyes hurt, and I had to look away. It dimmed out to a cigar-shaped haze and then, zig-jagged a little.=94 - July 19, 10:47 p.m. =97 Five people at Aaron Provincial Park just east of Dryden said they saw an object far off in the distance shoot "straight out into space.=94 - July 30, 10:30 p.m. =97 An individual in Sioux Lookout reported seeing three light-coloured objects flying in a straight line. - Aug. 1, 12:20 a.m. =97 Two individuals saw a round, copper- coloured object in the sky near Dryden, moving in a straight line, then in a tilted =91S=92 flight pattern. - Sept. 7, 12:30 a.m. =97 Three star-like objects were observed near Sioux Lookout in the shape of a triangle moving across the sky before they just suddenly stopped and disappeared. - Dec. 23, 10:06 p.m. =97 Three people travelling in a vehicle observed a circular object with three flashing red and white lights flying along the right side of Highway 72, 10 kilometres south of Sioux Lookout. When they got closer, the object suddenly took a 90-degree turn left and "flew over the highway and right over us.=94
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 PRG/X-Conference Report - Part II - 05-10-05 From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:35:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:58:37 -0400 Subject: PRG/X-Conference Report - Part II - 05-10-05 PRG Paradigm Research Group PRG/X-Conference Report - Part II - May 10, 2005 Thank Yous PRG wishes to express its appreciation to the volunteers who made the X-Conference possible: Tom Baxter, Jan Bennett, Ken Birnie, Jim Boka, Bill Brown, Laurie Elms, Francis Knize, Marina Diamond-Heart, Tom Mattingly, Sharon Pacione, Suzanne Riordan, Sandy Young and Jim Young. If someone is left out here, let us know. And a special thanks to the artists who help provide some wonderful ambiance: R. J. Bachman, Betty Plummer, Yancy Spence and Dr. Julie Walker. [Note: if you know of an artist whose work blends well with the issues and themes of the conference, please refer them to PRG.] And, of course, let us not forget the musical contributions of Bruce and Ashley Maccabee - a most appreciated developing tradition along with that of the co-hosting of former CNN anchor, Cheryll Jones. X-Conference 2005 by the Numbers (Numbers in parentheses are for 2004) Total Attendance: 420 (630) Demographics: - 30 (31) states [AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, DE, FL, GA, HI, IL, KS, LA, MA, MD, MI, MO, NC, NJ, NM, NY, OH, OR, PA, RI, SC, TN, VA, WA, WI, WV] - 6 (6) countries [US, UK, Canada, Italy, Mexico, Australia] Speakers/Panelists: 26 (25) Banquet: 220 (350) Press Passes: 70 (44) Documentary Teams: 7 (7) Banner Links: 82 (97) Financial Loss (gross): $29,074 ($27,443) Honoraria paid to speakers (both conferences): $26,000 Honoraria still owed to speakers: $24,600 Notes: (1) Approximately half of the 2005 loss has been covered by generous contributions to PRG from a number of sources. Some of these sources wish to remain anonymous, but PRG thanks Graham Bethune, Jim Boka, Lisa Davis, James Deardorff, Marina Diamond- Heart, Rebecca Gordon, Rob Gordon, Richard Jones and John Miller. Apologies to anyone left out. These do not include contributions to X-PPAC, which are being sorted out. (2) PRG will continue to expand its contribution base and intends to set up a 501(c)(3) PRG Foundation later in 2005 to allow for tax deductible contributions. PRG will pay all outstanding honoraria in full. (3) While PRG appreciates contributions from X-Conference speakers, let it be clear it is PRG's role to provide resources to speakers - not the other way around. PRG will continue to support researchers/activists by providing honoraria; promoting their books and websites; providing media exposure; and supporting documentary productions with referrals and interviews. (4) When, not if, PRG receives the major funding the issues in question appropriately require, this funding will be moved quickly into the community to support the multiplying research and activism which will inevitably lead to the end of the truth embargo. X-Conference 2005 DVDs DVDs and Tapes of X-Conferences 2005 and 2004 (including full sets) are now available from Lost Arts Media. Contact info: Lost Arts Media Phone: 800-952-5678 Email: lostartsmedia.nul URL: www.lostartsmedia.com Next Report: The NPC Press Conference ________________________________________________________ Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul URL: www.paradigmclock.com Cell: 202-215-8344 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: Angler Convinced Of UFO Sighting - Buckallew From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew.nul-tel.net> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:16:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Angler Convinced Of UFO Sighting - Buckallew UFO UpDates - Toronto posted: >Source: The Advocate - Burnie, Tasmania, Australia >http://ta.harrisgroup.com.au/news.cgi?type=1&id=182662 >May 10, 2005 >Angler convinced of UFO sighting >An unidentified flying object in the sky above Squeaking Point has baffled a Burnie man. >John Walker yesterday said he was now "a believer" unless someone could explain what he saw. >Mr Walker was fishing alone about 10a.m. on Wednesday when he saw a grey bullet-shaped object moving across the sky. <snip> About 1974-75 on the way to San Francisco I saw a bullet-shaped UFO lifting off the ground, it had a aqua blue haze around it. The thing lifted up, stopped and then a second later took off at tremendous speed, a few minutes later we saw it flying in the West not far away, it did a ninety-degree turn and took off out of sight. I saw another bullet shaped UFO over the lake here not far from our house, it was pretty high and was orange colored. It was floating along then came to a stop and the rear end got a darker reddish orange and it took off and was gone in a flash.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:18:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:09:02 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Lehmberg >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico <snip> >>>>(b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at >>>>the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a >>>>video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their <snip> >>One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >>April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >>http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ >>Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting >>all balloons up there and in close, but random positions, and >>then having them maintain those positions relative to each other >>for about a minute. >Jim, Jim, Jim, >Oh how you waste your time my friend. James Smith for all his >feigned pretension of honest skepticism, is quite the opposite. >If Smith is able to accept the sloppy 'proof' that Mr. Franz >presented recently while demanding precision and strict >adherence to empirical procedure from the Mexican research >community, contrary to what his mouth says, what he actually >does is to prematurely arrive at conclusions and apply a double >standard to everyone else. Damn! This puts a head on it. Let me bring over a few kliegs, light some roman candles and light matches for all available light so the point is appropriately hallmarked. Mr. Smith (et al), unmasked, is at best a pelicanist prosecuting an effete double standard of convenient pelicanist ideals. His theoretical paradigms include switched out or sliding-scale standards dependant on who's making the argument, not who's right in the argument. The card carrying klasskurtxian gives the pelican infinite slop in method, thinking, and explication, but resorts to arguing the definitions of two-letter verbs to be when he is squawking outside his gassy flock. Thanks for kicking over his rock, John. >The only thing Mr. Franz duplicated in his 'experiment to prove >his oil-well burn off theory' was that he was 'in' an airplane. >Other than that, he's the first one to tell you that in his >alleged recreation of the flight he did not follow the same >course, (in fact, he was nowhere near to where the original >recording was made) nor did he fly at the same heading, altitude >or speed as the original flight. (Reread the preceding sentence >until it sinks in.) Besides, why has this stuff never been seen before or sense? It's like George W. scurrying into his bunker because his intelligence machine mistook a cloud for a slow-flying kumquat. >Yet he insists that the photos he took of Oil-well fires >corresponds -exactly- to the ones recorded by the military FLIR >equipment. And... that abortive effort by Franz which proves >absolutely nothing, is good enough for Smith to champion the >theory in public while looking down his nose at anyone who may >disagree. His nasal sightage _is_ top drawer... almost certainly regional. >It's ordinary pre-judging, plain and simple. Wow! Prejudice would smell as sweet by any other name..... >Bruce Maccabee met with Jaime Maussan at the Conference that was >held recently in Washington. They discussed (yet again) the >possibility of getting the Mexican AF to recreate the original >flight, using the same plane, equipment, speed, course and >altitude. >Pay close attention here Mr. Smith: You can't seem to squeeze >this one into your melon for some reason..... I think it's the nuts and cheese after dinner. >Then, and only then, after the recreation/test flight, is >performed, (if) there is any _direct_ correlation between oil >well burn-off fires and the original FLIR recording, will you or >anybody else be able to dismiss the FLIR recording as mere heat >signatures recorded from oil well burn-off. >Not before. >Whether you like it or not. >Period. Seems to me that there has been abundant opportunity for similar video providing a facsimile of their guano splattered conjectures. Yet none comes to the front. I would assume that drug interdiction missions are being flown, still. It remains that my PFD (Pro From Dover) finds the footage _very_ odd. >I don't know how many times this point needs to be made before >skepti-bunkers in sheep's clothing (with itchy trigger-fingers) >finally chill out and wait for the Mexican military to do the >right thing. >Until then, people who egotistically declare cases closed/solved >without being able to actually prove or document it, really are >better off lurking. >The only thing I'm surprised at is; why this test flight has not >been performed to date. It's _the_ real sticking point. They can >calibrate the FLIR and a fresh recording can settle once and >for all the question of oil well fires. >Then maybe these alleged "honest" skeptics, cough, cough, >ahem... can put their heads together and try to explain the >radar target UFO that did all kinds of tricks in the air, ie; >dramatically speeding up and slowing down, as it wended its way >toward the city of Carmen. >Case closed? I don't think so. >Let em all talk, Jim. Until the military makes the test flight, >the jury will still be out in on this one. In spite of all the >bleating coming from certain quarters. Let em squirm, protest, >demand and prejudge all they want. In the end, the truth will >out. >My warmest regards to you Mr. Deardorff, stay well. Keep in >there swinging! ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:45:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:18:29 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Deardorff >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:38:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>I can try to use 3DMax to simulate this kind of thing, >>>at least initially. >>Nope. There's nothing like the real thing. And balloons are >>cheap. You need to go through all the motions that a would-be >>hoaxer would, tying off all 400 or so balloons, etc. >What do you mean "Nope"? If I can't duplicate it using a >simulation, then I will likely just concede the possibility of >the video being something other than balloons. If I can simulate >it using a computer model, then I can vary the parameters, >layout of balloons (released in one location or many locations), >release times (in groups or all at once), percentage of balloon >over-inflation, strings or no strings (released from a big bag >or by cutting/ letting go of strings). Why the hell should I >spend time and money to investigate all these variations in the >real world instead of saving money by figuring these out first >in the computer and then minimizing the equipment cost/time for >field/reallife testing? It's best to stick with the real world. Your computer model is not likely to contain realistic, small-scale three-dimensional
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:20:06 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:21:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Cosmonaut Info? - Gevaerd >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:19:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Cosmonaut Info? >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:17 -0300 >>Subject: Cosmonaut Info
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:20:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:25:06 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >Oh how you waste your time my friend. James Smith for all his >feigned pretension of honest skepticism, is quite the opposite. >If Smith is able to accept the sloppy 'proof' that Mr. Franz >presented recently while demanding precision and strict >adherence to empirical procedure from the Mexican research >community, contrary to what his mouth says, what he actually >does is to prematurely arrive at conclusions and apply a double >standard to everyone else. Ha-ha-ha! You really know how to give someone a good laugh! When did I ever give a critique of Captain Franz' latest video data? Pulling data out of the air again I see. Sort of like balloons. The fact is that Captain Franz has gotten off his ass, unlike many members of the UFO community, and actually gone out there to try to gather data to verify (or not) his theory. The passive UFOlogists instead like to sit back and wait for some day to arrive when the vaunted Mexican military will refly the path. I am pleased that Captain Franz is still working on the case, although I hardly see it as necessary. I have done my share of footwork on this case unlike you Mr. Velez. >The only thing Mr. Franz duplicated in his 'experiment to prove >his oil-well burn off theory' was that he was 'in' an airplane. >Other than that, he's the first one to tell you that in his >alleged recreation of the flight he did not follow the same >course, (in fact, he was nowhere near to where the original >recording was made) nor did he fly at the same heading, altitude >or speed as the original flight. (Reread the preceding sentence >until it sinks in.) He was gathering data, unlike you Mr.Velez who prefers to wait until the military doles out their latest "footage" or balloon experts film their latest release. >Yet he insists that the photos he took of Oil-well fires >corresponds -exactly- to the ones recorded by the military FLIR >equipment. And... that abortive effort by Franz which proves >absolutely nothing, is good enough for Smith to champion the >theory in public while looking down his nose at anyone who may >disagree. Sorry, I have not reviewed his latest video yet. I do not see the need. I am done with the case. It is proven to be oil rig burn off flares. Franz' dedictation does him credit. I have convinced MYSELF using satellite data. That is enough for me. If you wish to continue to believe your fantasies, that is your perogative. Believers will believe no matter what. I championed Franz' theory only after I could CONFIRM that he was RIGHT using satellite Landsat images to get the needed data to find the exact locations of each burnoff flare and match it with the FLIR images (thanks to the azimuth and aircraft position being imprinted on the video, unlike the balloon videos). I don't look down my nose at you stubborn anti-factualists. I smirk. >It's ordinary pre-judging, plain and simple. Oh-so-funny! >Bruce Maccabee met with Jaime Maussan at the Conference that >was held recently in Washington. They discussed (yet again) the >possibility of getting the Mexican AF to recreate the original >flight, using the same plane, equipment, speed, course and >altitude. Yes, a good idea whose time may never come, but I do recommend holding your breath until it does. >Pay close attention here Mr. Smith: You can't seem to squeeze >this one into your melon for some reason..... >Then, and only then, after the recreation/test flight, is >performed, (if) there is any _direct_ correlation between oil >well burn-off fires and the original FLIR recording, will you or >anybody else be able to dismiss the FLIR recording as mere heat >signatures recorded from oil well burn-off. Foolish man! Ignore all the satellite image correlations and platform locations and ancillary Franz videos and sure you can say there is no direct correlation. Continue to ignore the evidence, sir. It becomes you not. >Not before. >Whether you like it or not. >Period. Yawn. >I don't know how many times this point needs to be made before >skepti-bunkers in sheep's clothing (with itchy trigger-fingers) >finally chill out and wait for the Mexican military to do the >right thing. Yes, they are certainly going to make this top priority, showing that they are incompetent. Yes, I will follow these developments closely. >Until then, people who egotistically declare cases closed/solved >without being able to actually prove or document it, really are >better off lurking. Ignore the Landsat satellite data and all the FLIR directional data and you would be right, the case would NOT be closed. Maybe you don't understand what satellites are or something. Yes, thats mind boggling, but how else can I explain your fundamental inability to process the data I have presented in tedious detail to date (I even generated VRML models of the 3D data... oh yes, sorry, Mr. Deardorff prefers reality). >The only thing I'm surprised at is; why this test flight has not >been performed to date. It's _the_ real sticking point. They can >calibrate the FLIR and a fresh recording can settle once and >for all the question of oil well fires. As I said, the military doesn't what to advertise its stupidity. >Then maybe these alleged "honest" skeptics, cough, cough, >ahem... can put their heads together and try to explain the >radar target UFO that did all kinds of tricks in the air, ie; >dramatically speeding up and slowing down, as it wended its way >toward the city of Carmen. Have I ever stated that the target that Bruce Maccabee identified was explained by oil flare platforms? No. I tried. Its ONE light on the FLIR. Hardly the Earth shattering "fleet" of UFOs pursuing a poor Mexican military plane. If you want to call the ONE light a UFO, then by all means do so. It is one because I do not have any data to call it an airplane (which I suspect but cannot prove it is). As for the "tricks in the air", that does not show up on the video, it just moves like an airplane. I am skeptical of the radar after seeing the quality of the data (no data stream). Heh, what about later on in the FLIR video (after the "fleet"), there are some other lights which I can't identify. GO ahead and call them UFOs because I will not take more time to identify them (I tried and at least they aren't oil rigs or known heat sources on the mainland). So you got some UFOs on the video! Are you happy? Do I care? A nocturnal light on FLIR will not fill me with the truth that we are being visited, but we all have different needs. Maybe one light is enough for you. Enjoy! >Case closed? I don't think so. Whatever! >Let em all talk, Jim. Until the military makes the test flight, >the jury will still be out in on this one. In spite of all the >bleating coming from certain quarters. Let em squirm, protest, >demand and prejudge all they want. In the end, the truth will >out. Yeah baby!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:45:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Smith >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:36:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:38:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>Thanks, I was looking at a different earlier one, >>I haven't seen this one yet. Will get back to you. >The images in the second and third videos provided at the link >above seem to be items floating in a pool or body of water. I am not too impressed by the latest videos. The first video has some movement of objects relative to each other, but it is not clear if this is due to: 1) the camera moving about its axis, 2) perspective of a lower level object appearing to move past a higher level one although going at the same speed. 3) a Kyle King idea of painted glass layer (s) being moved in front of the camera to create any damn kind of effect they want. Towards the end they have an object apparently go around another object. It seems to wobble a little (turbulence?). If really balloons could they be at different levels? Seems likely, the size is slightly different. The second video has some slight movement between objects. This could be either due to turbulence or perspective (distance from balloons). The third video also has slight movement between objects. Again no telling if this is due to turbulence or perspective or the aliens being drunk. The video quality is poor. The filmer is questionable. >Note the "reflective" values, not the images themselves. Sorry I don't get what you mean. >Kyle King should address this. Sadly, Kyle is unsubscribed. Too much trouble trying to get things posted. Maybe if we all give him enough encouragement, he will post again. [Kyle had problems with various E-Mail software - which wouldn't allow him to format according to the Posting Rules and gave up --ebk] Quoth Mr King: "All Robles Gil's videos are _not_ balloons or birds... some are glass reflections, toy models, cardboard cutouts, and maybe even other stuff he found. Forgive me for being obtuse, but what possible value can there be in the videos you claim to have seen when Robles Gil is a known hoaxer? "And while I'm sure you aren't capable of being fooled, where might others see these other videos that cannot be "explained away as easily"? Besides, finding an obvious hoax isn't explaining away... it's just explaining. Explaining away is what someone does when ignoring obvious hoaxes to support a few less detectable hoaxes." Unless you suggest that Robles Gil is a hoaxer who occasionally gets a real UFO on tape. What an incredibly lucky guy...<g>" Endeth quote Right on Kyle!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:22:26 -0400 Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta Review Article: Project Beta: The Story of Paul Bennewitz, National Security, and the Creation of a Modern UFO Myth I recently finished reading Greg Bishop's book on Paul Bennewitz and was pleasantly surprised to read about one UFO researcher's attempt to find the truth about what happened to Bennewitz and the extraterrestrial information he allegedly discovered in the period from 1978 to 1986. Bishop researches the Bennewitz saga by conducting a number of interviews with individuals who directly knew and worked with Bennewitz during the period in question. William Moore, Richard Doty, Leo Sprinkle and Gabe Valdez, according to Bishop, are the individual keys to unlocking the mystery behind the Bennewitz saga. According to the saga unraveled by Bishop, Bennewitz through his electronics wizardry was able to find the electronic frequencies upon which some classified military projects were being conducted in the area around the Manzano Nuclear facilities near Kirtland Air Force base in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />New Mexico. Alert to the possibility of extraterrestrial involvement through the recent spate of cattle mutilations in the area that he had been researching, Bennewitz was to embark on a journey where he ultimately claimed that extraterrestrials had established an underground base in the area, and were showing a suspicious interest in US military facilities in the Manzano nuclear facility. Bishop relates how Bennewitz in November 1980 went through the process of passing on his information, the United States Air Force and how they took his views seriously. Too seriously for Bennewitz's ultimate well being in Bishop's opinion. According to Bishop, the USAF Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) soon began a campaign of systematically feeding Bennewitz disinformation about underground alien bases, captured humans, and alien hybridization programs. The goal, according to Bishop, was to so destabilize Bennewitz that he would ultimately be unable to separate the truth from the falsehoods being directed towards him and ultimately discredit himself. This apparently happened with veteran UFO researchers deserting Bennewitz and Bennewitz himself finally succumbing to a complete nervous breakdown in 1986. In this saga, Bishop clarifies the role of key individuals such as Moore and Doty in feeding Bennewitz the disinformation that ultimately led to his discrediting and abandonment by the UFO community. Both Doty and Moore befriended Bennewitz, and allegedly used this friendship to lead Bennewitz astray from whatever it was he had discovered in his research. Bishop goes on to further argue that the disinformation fed to Bennewitz ultimately went on to be disseminated by controversial UFO researchers such as William Cooper, John Lear and others, who created a whole new genre of extraterrestrials located at underground facilities using captured humans for all sorts of nasty purposes. Bishop's point is that much of modern Ufology has been contaminated by the disinformation fed to Bennewitz, and discerning 'modern' researchers need to weed out the disinformation regurgitated by less astute 'researchers' that was originally spawned through Bennewitz. Bishop's thesis is certainly ambitious so the reasonable question to ask is, "is Bishop correct?" There are many assumptions that Bishop makes that can be seriously criticized. First should Richard Doty and William Moore be believed that the information they fed to Bennewitz was in fact disinformation, rather than rumors of disinformation being spread to discredit Bennewitz and his legitimate claims of extraterrestrial bases with captive humans? Bishop certainly concludes the former from his interviews with Doty and Moore, and curiously doesn't consider the latter possibility as seriously worth considering. If Bennewitz was the subject of a disinformation campaign, as most agree was indeed the case, then should one find credible the testimony of individuals directly participating in such a campaign? Bishop paints a sympathetic picture of Moore as someone who unintentionally overstepped the bounds of sensible research principles and cooperated with the 'wrong side' so to speak. The same cannot be said for Richard Doty who was a professional in AFOSI and was a direct part of the campaign to discredit Bennewitz. Bishop seems too eager to accept Doty's and Moore's' versions of events that the information Bennewitz claimed concerning underground extraterrestrial bases and captive humans was in fact disinformation fed to Bennewitz. The question Bishop doesn't answer is why should anyone believe anything claimed by Richard Doty who in his official duty for AFOSI was a professional in disseminating disinformation and discrediting UFO researchers and witnesses? As for William Moore, it is also dubious to accept his version of events where he volunteered to participate in a campaign to discredit Bennewitz in order to learn about how AFOSI interfered with UFO research. If Moore choose to believe Doty and Moore's other AFOSI handlers that Bennewitz was being fed disinformation, then it's not surprising that Moore would later contend that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation. Put simply, Bishop places too much faith in a professional in discrediting UFO witnesses/researchers, and a UFO researcher who naively believed he could benefit by being a part of the military-intelligence game. Bishop assumes that Bennewitz's claims were a result of the disinformation being fed to him, and doesn't seriously consider that Bennewitz's central claims were accurate and that rumors of disinformation were used to discredit the genuine information Bennewitz was disseminating. Bishop's most unsympathetic assessment of Bennewitz's work came with his interviews concerning the case of Myrna Hansen, an abductee that Bennewitz claimed was being taken to the underground extraterrestrial base. Bennewitz's efforts to gain information from Myrna Hansen through the regressive hypnosis by Leo Sprinkle are depicted in terms of an increasingly neurotic Bennewitz who was using Hansen to feed his increasing paranoia about extraterrestrial bases and abducted humans. What Bishop fails to discuss is Bennewitz's expertise in electronic transmissions and his alleged success in discovering the radio frequency of the extraterrestrial implants inserted into Hansen. This kind of electronic interception device was a specialty area for Bennewitz and he actually held a number of patents in the area of electronic transmissions. This alone may explain why AFOSI was interested in Bennewitz's work since the interception and deciphering of electronic transmissions between a 'human abductee' and the extraterrestrial abductors would clearly have national security significance. Bishop totally ignores such a possibility and instead chooses to promote the idea that Bennewitz was paranoid in his dealing with Hansen and that this was a product of the disinformation being fed to him. However, since Bennewitz's work with Hansen began in May 1980, six months before he notified AFOSI of his conclusions in November, it's a stretch for Bishop to argue that Bennewitz's claims about extraterrestrials having underground bases with captured humans was a product of disinformation. Bennewitz's views were already formed well before AFOSI were notified of Bennewitz's concerns, and presumably began their campaign of discrediting Bennewitz. Another significant act of omission in Bishop's work concerns a number of whistleblower testimonies alleging the existence of underground bases located at Dulce, New Mexico as claimed by Bennewitz. First was Bob Lazar who claims to have read a briefing document at the S4 facility about an underground base in 1979 where there was a firefight between extraterrestrials and elite security forces. Another whistleblower is Phil Schneider who went on the lecture tour in 1995 claiming to have worked in the underground construction of classified military bases, and had been directly involved in a military altercation at Dulce between extraterrestrials and elite security forces in 1979. Schneider was found dead in his apartment in January 1996 in what some claim were circumstances that resembled a contract killing. Another whistleblower is Daniel Burisch who claims to have been taken to Dulce and heard the cries of captive humans. Burisch was allegedly threatened with the prospect of joining the captive humans if he did not participate in a highly unethical retro-virus program. Yet another whistleblower is Michael Wolf who claimed that he worked at Dulce and regularly met with extraterrestrials working with there under agreements with clandestine government authorities. Arguably the most controversial whistleblower is a former allegedly security guard at Dulce, Thomas Castello, who claims in great details the alleged treatment received by captive humans by extraterrestrials at Dulce and also claims to have participated in the 1979 firefight. Despite his extraordinary claims, Bill Hamilton researched Castello's claims and found him plausible. For more analysis of whistleblower testimonies concerning Dulce - see: http://www.exopolitics.org/Dulce-Report.htm Bishop's claim that information circulating in the UFO community about underground extraterrestrial bases and captive humans held underground was disinformation should not be accepted without thorough research of the above whistleblowers claims. These whistleblowers allegedly had direct experience with evidence validating Bennewitz's claim of an underground extraterrestrial base at Dulce suggests that there is some merit to Bennewitz's claims. Unfortunately, Bishop doesn't examine any of these whistleblower claims and makes what appears to be the unfortunate assumption that they are not worth investigating. This kind of routine dismissal of whistleblower testimony should not be condoned and is really impermissible for anyone wanting to conduct a balanced investigation of a major event in UFO history such as the Bennewitz case. The kind of difficulties many whistleblowers have in validating their credentials or testimony should not be used as an excuse to dismiss their claims as regularly done by veteran UFO researchers. This approach used by veteran UFO researchers is inappropriate as I have argued elsewhere - see: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/mar/m22-020.shtml Another area of concern in Bishop's book is a significant piece of information dug up by Bishop that the USAF awarded Bennewitz a grant of $75,000 to conduct research on what he had discovered by his electronic intercepts. Bishop suggests that this was part of the 'sting' operation launched against Bennewitz by AFOSI. This stretches the bounds of credibility since I have heard of no other case where a significant research grant will be awarded to a UFO researcher with the primary purpose of disinforming him while getting more information on the precise nature and conclusions of his research. What is more likely is that Bennewitz had developed the means for intercepting electronic transmissions that were of great interest to the Air Force. These transmissions may have been little more that communications used in a classified project as Bishop suggests; or may have been more exotic in terms of intercepted extraterrestrial communications which is what Bennewitz believed. It is clear that Bennewitz had discovered something with his electronic interceptions and his methods where the subject of close observation by the USAF. It's hard to believe that the USAF would have given a grant to Bennewitz so they could find out more about how he was intercepting their own classified transmissions. They could easily have silenced Bennewitz by informing him that he had intercepted signals from a classified military project. As a loyal citizen, it's hard to imagine that Bennewitz would have done anything other than simply comply. It's more plausible that he received his grant because the Air Force wanted to learn more about what the alleged extraterrestrials were up to as Bennewitz was indeed claiming. It appears that while Bennewitz was passing on information to the USAF, he was simultaneously the recipient of an intense campaign to discredit him by claiming he was ingenuously accepting disinformation passed to him. To accept the word of those playing a direct role in discrediting Bennewitz's primary claims concerning underground extraterrestrial bases and captive humans as disinformation appears to be a dubious way of assessing the validity of Bennewitz's claims. Yet this is what Bishop does in his book. Ultimately I come away from Bishop's book with very mixed feelings. He has done some excellent field work in uncovering much pertinent background information about the Bennewitz affair and deserves recognition for bringing this important case to the public's attention. Yet from the very chapter of his book, Bishop has the clear goal of demonstrating that Bennewitz was the victim of a disinformation campaign and that Bennewitz's claims were too laden with disinformation to be of any service to the UFO community other than a warning of how researchers can be led astray. Bishop's citation of sources and interviews are all geared to demonstrate the truth of his thesis that the UFO community was right to dismiss the bulk of Bennewitz's extravagant claims. Unfortunately, Bishop doesn't seriously entertain the idea that Bennewitz was possibly correct, even in part, in his most extravagant claims concerning underground extraterrestrial bases with captive humans. Indeed, Bishop assumes that such claims were precisely the disinformation fed to him, when it may have been that rumors of disinformation were generated towards Bennewitz to discredit his research findings about an underground extraterrestrial base at Dulce. Its Bishop's a priori dismissal of the possibility the Bennewitz could have been correct is what most weakens his book as an impartial research study of a key historical figure in UFO research. A more balanced assessment that seriously explores the claims made by a number of whistleblowers who allegedly directly witnessed evidence or physically visited an underground extraterrestrial base at Dulce, New Mexico, together with the claims made by Richard Doty and William Moore concerning the discrediting of Paul Bennewitz, is needed. Simply accepting Doty's and Moore's testimony that Bennewitz believed disinformation fed to him is to do a disservice to the memory of Bennewitz who was an astute observer of the UFO phenomenon and who had valid observations to make regardless of the rumors of disinformation leveled against him. Bennewitz was ultimately discredited by a clever disinformation campaign. However, it was rumors of him ingenuously spreading disinformation that were more damaging to his reputation, than his actually using the information received by AFOSI agents and assets to formulate his views about what was really occurring in underground facilities
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 British National Archives UFO Research Guide From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:28:21 -0400 Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide An updated and improved research guide is now available at the TNA [The National Archives] web site - paper copies are also available at TNA. It is viewable at the following link:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:03:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:34:07 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Lehmberg >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:20:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>Oh how you waste your time my friend. James Smith for all his >>feigned pretension of honest skepticism, is quite the opposite. >>If Smith is able to accept the sloppy 'proof' that Mr. Franz >>presented recently while demanding precision and strict >>adherence to empirical procedure from the Mexican research >>community, contrary to what his mouth says, what he actually >>does is to prematurely arrive at conclusions and apply a double >>standard to everyone else. >Ha-ha-ha! You really know how to give someone a good laugh! Au contraire mon ami! It's always the one holding fastest to a crumbling world view provides the most mirth. You've got _me_ rolling on the floor. >When >did I ever give a of Captain Franz' latest video data? Your blithe acceptance of Franz provides an abundantly accommodating critique _enough_, Mr. Smith. As to that, its the voluminous squawking of the piqued ideologue that is at issue here. You see, one won't have to wait with one of your philosophy. Merely seeing your name in the subject line is to know where you come down on an issue, any issue. Try that with me or Velez, by way of example, and your heads comes up tails to often to be profitable for you. >Pulling data out of the air again I see. He won't be pulling his from a discredited past of outdated conventional wisdoms, you can be sure. >Sort of like balloons. >The fact is that Captain Franz has gotten off his ass, unlike >many members of the UFO community, and actually gone out there >to try to gather data to verify (or not) his theory. Yeah, yeah... this is forgetting that the axe he obviously grinds would smell as sweet. Moreover, I suspect that if the "(or not)" clearly presented itself we wouldn't hear a peep out of him, or you. >The passive >UFOlogists instead like to sit back and wait for some day to >arrive when the vaunted Mexican military will refly the path. I >am pleased that Captain Franz is still working on the case, I suspect you are! But I don't mean that in a good way. An embezzler _would_ want a compatriot in to check his cooked books. Birds of a feather fly together, and all that, and you pelicanists support each other like United States Senate Repugnicans. >although I hardly see it as necessary. I have done my share of >footwork on this case unlike you Mr. Velez. Right. >>The only thing Mr. Franz duplicated in his 'experiment to prove >>his oil-well burn off theory' was that he was 'in' an airplane. >>Other than that, he's the first one to tell you that in his >>alleged recreation of the flight he did not follow the same >>course, (in fact, he was nowhere near to where the original >>recording was made) nor did he fly at the same heading, altitude >>or speed as the original flight. (Reread the preceding sentence >>until it sinks in.) >He was gathering data, unlike you Mr.Velez who prefers to wait >until the military doles out their latest "footage" or balloon >experts film their latest release. Nonsense - I suspect he worked an artful conjecture to prosecute an agenda of fatuous denial. >>Yet he insists that the photos he took of Oil-well fires >>corresponds -exactly- to the ones recorded by the military FLIR >>equipment. And... that abortive effort by Franz which proves >>absolutely nothing, is good enough for Smith to champion the >>theory in public while looking down his nose at anyone who may >>disagree. > >Sorry, I have not reviewed his latest video yet. I do not see >the need. Right. Your mind is made up! Why complicate your stolid intransigence looking for additional facts? Seriously, your last sentence erodes the need to continue any more discussion with you... but I shall. <g> >I am done with the case. It is proven to be oil rig >burn off flares. Ah! Proven! Dodgy evidence you 'choose' to accept. >Franz' dedictation does him credit. Franz' dedication illustrates only his enfeebled complacency. >I have >convinced MYSELF using satellite data. That is enough for me. Any data supporting your 19th Century contention would be enough for you. >If >you wish to continue to believe your fantasies, that is your >perogative. Believers will believe no matter what. How right you are, Sir! The irony is that you would be the best example of that. You pelicanist 'believers' will hold fast to your flock's beliefs... "no matter what"! >I championed Franz' theory only after I could CONFIRM that he >was RIGHT using satellite Landsat images to get the needed data >to find the exact locations of each burnoff flare and match it >with the FLIR images (thanks to the azimuth and aircraft >position being imprinted on the video, unlike the balloon >videos). No, you reasoned with all the other pelicanists that this was a likely looking _enough_ "round peg" that might be hammered into an offending "square hole." You guys do this over and over. A smart man would try a different approach. Yours will work less and less each additional time it is attempted. >I don't look down my nose at you stubborn anti-factualists. >I smirk. Call it what you want. It comes across to me like the petulance of a crossed juvenile. >>It's ordinary pre-judging, plain and simple. >Oh-so-funny! It would be I suppose, except you expect to be lauded for it. >>Bruce Maccabee met with Jaime Maussan at the Conference that >>was held recently in Washington. They discussed (yet again) the >>possibility of getting the Mexican AF to recreate the original >>flight, using the same plane, equipment, speed, course and >>altitude. >Yes, a good idea whose time may never come, but I do recommend >holding your breath until it does. The only thing keeping us from breathing free, in the aggregate, is you and yours, Mr. Smith. >>Pay close attention here Mr. Smith: You can't seem to squeeze >>this one into your melon for some reason..... >>Then, and only then, after the recreation/test flight, is >>performed, (if) there is any _direct_ correlation between oil >>well burn-off fires and the original FLIR recording, will you or >>anybody else be able to dismiss the FLIR recording as mere heat >>signatures recorded from oil well burn-off. >Foolish man! Ignore all the satellite image correlations and >platform locations and ancillary Franz videos and sure you can >say there is no direct correlation. Continue to ignore the >evidence, sir. It becomes you not. While you are a foolish man in turn for clinging to your gassy fiction regarding an essential (for you) dearth of other intelligences in a vast universe... even bigger than _your_ pathetic hubris, Sir. Even if you _are_ obtuse, you're not stupid, and the implications and potentials of unending space, un-bracketed time, and infinite surface area are not lost on, I suspect, even you..... >>Not before. >>Whether you like it or not. >>Period. >Yawn. Wow! What a gaper! ...Brits _do_ have bad teeth! <g> >>I don't know how many times this point needs to be made before >>skepti-bunkers in sheep's clothing (with itchy trigger-fingers) >>finally chill out and wait for the Mexican military to do the >>right thing. >Yes, they are certainly going to make this top priority, showing >that they are incompetent. Yes, I will follow these developments >closely. Only if they feather your nest, Mr. Smith... only if they feather your nest. Otherwise, you'd work just as passionately to discredit it, I suspect. >>Until then, people who egotistically declare cases closed/solved >>without being able to actually prove or document it, really are >>better off lurking. >Ignore the Landsat satellite data and all the FLIR directional >data and you would be right, the case would NOT be closed. Maybe >you don't understand what satellites are or something. Yes, >thats mind boggling, but how else can I explain your fundamental >inability to process the data I have presented in tedious detail >to date (I even generated VRML models of the 3D data... oh yes, >sorry, Mr. Deardorff prefers reality). You must be driven by the data, Mr. Smith, not driving the data. The latter_is_ woo-woo, and the former is not the pelicanist's style. >>The only thing I'm surprised at is; why this test flight has not >>been performed to date. It's _the_ real sticking point. They can >>calibrate the FLIR and a fresh recording can settle once and >>for all the question of oil well fires. >As I said, the military doesn't what to advertise its stupidity. This fairly drips with bigotry, Mr. Smith... which serves _you_ not. Why _are_ they a stupid military? >>Then maybe these alleged "honest" skeptics, cough, cough, >>ahem... can put their heads together and try to explain the >>radar target UFO that did all kinds of tricks in the air, ie; >>dramatically speeding up and slowing down, as it wended its way >>toward the city of Carmen. >Have I ever stated that the target that Bruce Maccabee >identified was explained by oil flare platforms? No. I tried. You deny that you would suggest or intimate a 'discounting by association' with what you believe could be conveniently discredited as a result of Franz' bloated activity? Sir, it's what you lot are _famous_ for. >Its ONE light on the FLIR. Hardly the Earth shattering "fleet" >of UFOs pursuing a poor Mexican military plane. I suspect you just can't perceive your own prejudice, pendaho. <g> >If you want to >call the ONE light a UFO, then by all means do so. That's not his problem. Velez wants to live in a real world and not the conveniently crafted environs of the reflex denialist like yourself. >It is one >because I do not have any data to call it an airplane (which I >suspect but cannot prove it is). More avian dropsmanship, Mr. Smith. Your mind is already made up. To you, they're _all_ airplanes... or birds, bolides, and boosters, and people who think otherwise are misrepresenting, misrepresented, or mentally ill. Yours is a mere fraction of the reality we try to perceive with five or six very imperfect senses. ...More to Earth and heaven, Mr. Smith, to paraphrase our bard... >As for the "tricks in the air", >that does not show up on the video, it just moves like an >airplane. Are you a professional aviator in addition to all your other talents, skills, and professional appellations, Sir? I was, you see. I was a Standardization Instructor Pilot, Instrument Flight Examiner, and a Master Aviator. The movement alluded to is not _entirely_ like an airplane, Mr. Smith. >I am skeptical of the radar after seeing the quality >of the data (no data stream). Heh, what about later on in the >FLIR video (after the "fleet"), there are some other lights >which I can't identify. GO ahead and call them UFOs because I >will not take more time to identify them (I tried and at least >they aren't oil rigs or known heat sources on the mainland). It remains that nothing like this was seen before or after this event, Sir. That assiduously avoided aspect does not fit well with your ardent desire for a prosaic conclusion or easy explanation. >So you got some UFOs on the video! Are you happy? Do I care? A >nocturnal light on FLIR will not fill me with the truth that we >are being visited, but we all have different needs. Maybe one >light is enough for you. Enjoy! We'll forget that there is a lot more going on than one lonely nocturnal light. There's 5000 years of _that_ and more. Maybe that's just too _much_ for you? >>Case closed? I don't think so. >Whatever! Withdraw then! >>Let em all talk, Jim. Until the military makes the test flight, >>the jury will still be out in on this one. In spite of all the >>bleating coming from certain quarters. Let em squirm, protest, >>demand and prejudge all they want. In the end, the truth will >>out. >Yeah baby! Your smirk begins to sag, Mr. Smith. >>My warmest regards to you Mr. Deardorff, stay well. Keep in >>there swinging! ;) >Yes, support your local balloon releaser. That only got nervous twitters from your side, Sir. No laughter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 CI: South African Mystery Spheres And The Iapetus From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:26:14 -0400 Subject: CI: South African Mystery Spheres And The Iapetus Cydonian Imperative 5-11-05 South African Mystery Spheres And The Iapetus Enigma by Mac Tonnies See: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com This is quite interesting: "Over the past several decades, South African miners have found hundreds of metallic spheres, at least one of which has three parallel grooves running around its equator. The spheres are of two types - "...one of solid bluish metal with white flecks, and another which is a hollow ball filled with a white spongy center." (Jimison 1982). Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp, South Africa, where some of the spheres are housed, said: "The spheres are a complete mystery. They look man-made, yet at the time in Earth's history when they came to rest in this rock no intelligent life existed. They're nothing like I have ever seen before' (Jimison 1982)." Even more interesting is the discovery that Iapetus' conspicuous equatorial bulge, seen up close, appears to be composed of three distinct 'layers' - remarkably like the grooved rings encircling the enigmatic spheres described above. As the ever-controversial Richard Hoagland notes regarding Saturn's unlikely moon: "It is a well-known cliche that 'Nature doesn't usually create straight lines.' If that is true, then it certainly doesn't create three of them (close-up-below) - all running parallel, not only to each other, but to the literal equator of the planet." Given their strange similarity to Iapetus, could the South African spheres be manufactured representations of Saturn's moon (assuming a non-natural origin for the unexplained bulge)? Recently, the prospect of alien intelligences choosing to communicate via physical 'messages-in-a-bottle' has gained notoriety, as tangible artifacts wafted into space are immune to the signal degradation that invariably afflicts electromagnetic transmissions. Extraterrestrials might choose to communicate long-distance (and over vast spans of time) by 'broadcasting' large numbers of tangible artifacts. Ideally, such artifacts could communicate a message, however simple - perhaps even referencing their place of origin. Additionally, dating such ET artifacts might help scientists determine when they were crafted; ultimately, they might serve as calling cards for any species advanced and fortunate enough to find them and recognize their potential significance. If the grooved spheres are indeed ET artifacts, buried for millennia, what might they be trying to say? If they're representations of Iapetus, it's conceivable Iapetus itself is a message or beacon of some kind. Inexplicably oblate and adorned with a shallow ring, Iapetus might be a massive, simplified depiction of Saturn itself... in which case there might be something wholly unexpected waiting for us if and when we muster the foresight to go there. -end- Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:18:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:28:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:21:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:43:47 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:00:44 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear ><snip> >>>One can't dismiss the 'experiences' of people like the Hills, or >>>in the UFO circle here, people like John Velez and Will Bueche. >>>These are not insane people, nor hoaxers, nor persons inclined >>>to add material to their experience which isn't there in the >>>first place. >>>When Velez and Bueche say they had an "experience," one has to >>>accept that what happened to them had some tangibility. ><snip> >>>Something has happened to credible and decent, intelligent >>>people. We should try to find out what it was..... >>Sorry but neither I nor anyone else is obliged to believe >>anyone's unsupported testimony on anything. Claims actually have >>to be demonstrated. Belief in other peoples claims in more >>mundane situations leads to a regular procession of people >>loosing their life savings every year. Something not entirely >>unknown in the UFO field >>My point is that subjective sense of missing time could be >>caused by a variety of causes from the very mundane to the >>relatively exotic, all of which would have to be eliminated >>before very exotic causes are postulated. >I don't diagree with you about "unsupported testimony" - >generally anyway. >But having heard Velez off and on and communicating with Will >Bueche (and seeing him in TV documentaries), I think we have to >give them the benefit of the doubt. >These two guys, as Mrs. Hill before them, strike me as honest >to the point that they make themselves vulnerable to attacks by >persons (not you ) who want to dismiss alien abduction accounts >from the get-go. >Some abductees, like contactees before them, are suspect, but >not Velez, Bueche, or the late Mrs. Hill. And their claims are >intensely unique so how can one ask them to prove something >without normal frames of reference? I think that it is reasonable to assume that most abductees and even contactees are people who have had experiences which they find puzzling and anomalous, and which they express in terms of the language and beliefs of the people they come into contact with and the general culture. Some of both sets then fall into the temptation of constantly elaborating on the story because they like the attention they get. A smaller set consists of people who live their lives as novels and really believe the claims they make while they are telling them. Only a very small minority are people who very consciously set out to tell lies. All of these people can be found far outside the borders of ufology. However I'm afraid its virtually impossible to assess the veracity of strangers, after all how many times have you heard the phrase _it turns out I didn't't really know him/her at all_ even when refering to intimates. To take a very extreme example, on this side of the pond we have the awful warning of the nice, kindly, wise old family doctor, loved and admired by many in his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Secrecy News -- 05/11/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:06:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:30:33 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/11/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 45 May 11, 2005 ** THE DESTRUCTION OF THOMAS BUTLER ** VICE PRESIDENT WINS ENERGY TASK FORCE CASE ** AN ORDINARY FOIA STORY ** INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSED IN NETHERLANDS ** HOMELAND SECURITY APPROPRIATIONS (CRS) ** MEMORIES OF PHIL AND PHYLIS MORRISON THE DESTRUCTION OF THOMAS BUTLER Dr. Thomas C. Butler, the distinguished physician and specialist in infectious disease who was sentenced to prison last year for improperly transporting medical samples, is the subject of an extraordinary profile in the latest issue of the medical journal Clinical Infectious Disease. "Thomas Campbell Butler, at 63 years of age, is completing the first year of a 2-year sentence in federal prison, following an investigation and trial that was initiated after he voluntarily reported that he believed vials containing Yersinia pestis were missing from his laboratory at Texas Tech University," the article begins. "We take this opportunity to remind the infectious diseases community of the plight of our esteemed colleague, whose career and family have, as a result of his efforts to protect us from infection by this organism, paid a price from which they will never recover." Dr. Butler is credited with having saved literally millions of lives in developing countries through his pioneering work on oral hydration as a treatment for diarrheal diseases. See "Destroying the Life and Career of a Valued Physician- Scientist Who Tried to Protect Us from Plague: Was It Really Necessary?" by Barbara E. Murray and 13 colleagues, Clinical Infectious Disease, vol. 40, no. 11, 1 June 2005: http://tinyurl.com/7khsx Further background on the Butler case is available from the Federation of American Scientists here: http://www.fas.org/butler/index.html VICE PRESIDENT WINS ENERGY TASK FORCE CASE The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals yesterday affirmed that the Vice President's Energy Task Force was within its rights to meet behind closed doors with industry participation since the industry participants were not, strictly speaking, members of the Task Force. The ruling is a victory for the Bush White House and a new constraint on open government. See "D.C. Circuit Narrows Advisory Committee Openness," an analysis from the National Security Archive here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20050510/index.htm AN ORDINARY FOIA STORY Many FOIA requesters are likely to have unrealistic expectations about how the Freedom of Information Act process should work, and may be disappointed when voluminous responsive records do not appear on their doorstep free of charge within a few days. But increasingly, even experienced requesters with modest hopes and low expectations are frustrated with the performance of government agencies. In a statement prepared for a House hearing on FOIA today, a requester named Charlotte Dennett recounted her efforts to obtain 60 year old records from the Central Intelligence Agency concerning her late father, Daniel C. Dennett, a counterintelligence officer with the OSS and the Central Intelligence Group (CIG). Although the Agency did release hundreds of routine personnel records to her, "the CIA did not provide me with anything remotely connected with my father's last months or with his death (along with six other Americans) in a March, 1947 plane crash. The CIA justified its actions by citing FOIA exemptions based on protection of Agency sources and methods and reasons of national security." For reasons explained in her statement, Ms. Dennett did not find this claim persuasive. Her appeal of the matter extended inconclusively for several years, and it is now in litigation. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/051105dennett.pdf INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSED IN NETHERLANDS In the United States, where intelligence budget secrecy is a deeply rooted dogma that defies rational criticism, it takes a court order to compel the disclosure even of a forty-two year old budget figure (Secrecy News, 05/09/05). But in other mature democracies such as the United Kingdom, Canada and elsewhere, annual publication of intelligence spending figures has now become the norm. In the Netherlands, the General Intelligence and Security Service (AIVD) included budget data in its latest annual report as a matter of course. Thus, in 2004, the AIVD spent 52.2 million Euros on personnel, 32.2 million on material costs, and 3.1 million on secret expenditures. See the 2004 AIVD annual report here (in Dutch, at pp. 109-110; 750 kb PDF file; thanks to Prof. Cees Wiebes): http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2004.pdf A recent AIVD report analyses the threat posed by radical Islam. See "From dawa to jihad - the various threats from radical Islam to the democratic legal order," English translation dated March 2005, here: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/dawa.pdf (Dawa refers to the propagation of Islam by missionary activity, and is perhaps something like the Islamic counterpart of Christian evangelism.) HOMELAND SECURITY APPROPRIATIONS (CRS) Current and proposed funding for the Department of Homeland Security is described in a recent Congressional Research Service report with somewhat greater clarity than in DHS budget documents themselves. See "Homeland Security Department: FY2006 Appropriations," April 14, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32863.pdf MEMORIES OF PHIL AND PHYLIS MORRISON A web site devoted to the memory of the late physicist Philip Morrison and his wife Phylis with tributes from their friends, students and admirers is under construction here: http://www.memoriesofmorrison.org/ _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:04:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:34:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:36 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >Fear >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>Fear >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>>Fear <snip> >Now, I wish to come back to the possible influence of SF and >UFO stories. >It has been often argued that SF films and TV series could >have influenced Betty and Barney Hill. This argument has been >developped at some length by Kevin Randle, Estes and Cone, in >their book of 1999, The Abduction Enigma. >They cited several films, of which I found the dates. I also >found some posters giving an idea of their tone, in a nice SF >picture book called Who Goes There? 1950's Horror & Sci-Fi >Movie posters and Lobby cards (Bruce Hershenson, June 2001). >The films, cited by Randle et al, released before 1961, are >(pp. 122, 123): >1953: Invaders From Mars >1954: Killers From Space 1955: This Island Earth >1956: Not Of This Earth >1956: Earth Versus Flying Saucers >1956: It Conquered The World >1957: Invasion Of The Saucer Men >Well, the posters of all these films show the aliens as >dreadful >monsters or grotesque figures, which could hardly have >inspired the the Hills to invent their story ! >On the other hand, they do not mention the film quoted by >Peter Rogerson on April 30: Village of the Damned (1960), >based on the Wyndham's novel, The Midwich Cuckoos, >of 1957. In effect, that film tells an entirely different >story. At no time do we see a UFO and alien abductors. >The only aliens are the nice looking, blond hair children >(hybrid? we don't know) born after >the mysterious event. Nothing to do with the Hill story. >Other films are cited by Randle et al, about possible >influence on Betty and Barney Hill, but they come >out after 1961: >1965: The Night Caller 1966: Mars Needs Women >The TV series, The Invaders, with David Vincent, started in >January 1967, after the release of the Fuller book. Since >they come after the Hill story, so let's forget them here. >To be honest, there is a more troubling case, mentioned by >Randle et al (p. 127), who quote a Martin Kottmeyer article >in Magonia: an episode of the TV series, The Outer Limits, >The Bellero Shield, first broadcast on February 10, 1964, >just two weeks before Barney Hill remembered >wrap-around eyes in a regression session with Dr Simon. Hi Gildas, Since this topic has been lingering for a couple of weeks, I thought it might be worth my chipping in to add a few references for anyone interested in looking into any of these aspects in more detail. First off, as you may know, the Martin Kottmeyer article you mention is available on the Magonia website at the link below: http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/entirelymk.html Secondly, I've quickly cut and pasted into a Microsoft Word document at the link below a few relevant entries from an incomplete draft of the Chronology I've been working on. http://tinyurl.com/9rskk The relevant document is a relatively short extract consisting of about 4 pages of entries (relating to the Hills, Villas-Boas, some of the movies mentioned above, Dick's novel "Valis" mentioned earlier in this discussion, and one or two other entries I've cut and pasted on the basis of an extremely quick selecton) plus the relevant footnotes. Since I only added some of the relevant entries relatively recently, the footnotes for some of the entries are not as comprehensive as I'd like - but you may nonetheless find them of some use. Since Microsoft Word is such a memory hog, I've zipped the relevant file. If you haven't already got software to unzip files, you can download WinZip from: http://www.winzip.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Brazilian UFO Magazine Website Visits Hits Record From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:09:40 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:40:00 -0400 Subject: Brazilian UFO Magazine Website Visits Hits Record Dear Colleagues: I write this message only to share with you an absolutely extraordinary achievement. The counter of the Brazilian UFO Magazine website: www.ufo.com.br) registered the amazing number of 53,711 hits from yesterday, 10 May 07:00 am, to today, 11 May 06:45 a.m. - less than 24 hours. This projects a new average of daily visits to our website, of about 26,750 everyday - it was 14,443 - or something as large as 800,000 hits per month. The most visited area of the site is the one with the Mexican flotillas and a few other videos: www.ufo.com.br/exclusive/mexico This is _only_ in Portuguese. But it is certainly a very promissing info just at the moment when we are preparing to release the future, internationalized version of the magazine,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:43:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Jamieson >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> >There are many assumptions that Bishop makes that can be >seriously criticized. First should Richard Doty and William >Moore be believed that the information they fed to Bennewitz was >in fact disinformation, rather than rumors of disinformation >being spread to discredit Bennewitz and his legitimate claims of >extraterrestrial bases with captive humans? Bishop certainly >concludes the former from his interviews with Doty and Moore, >and curiously doesn't consider the latter possibility as >seriously worth considering. If Bennewitz was the subject of a >disinformation campaign, as most agree was indeed the case, then >should one find credible the testimony of individuals directly >participating in such a campaign? Bishop paints a sympathetic >picture of Moore as someone who unintentionally overstepped the >bounds of sensible research principles and cooperated with the >'wrong side' so to speak. The same cannot be said for Richard >Doty who was a professional in AFOSI and was a direct part of >the campaign to discredit Bennewitz. Bishop seems too eager to >accept Doty's and Moore's' versions of events that the >information Bennewitz claimed concerning underground >extraterrestrial bases and captive humans was in fact >disinformation fed to Bennewitz. <snip> Hi Michael, I don't know about Richard Doty, but I am sure Bill Moore could be counted on to be credible when he essentially laid out his self-destructive bombshell before that MUFON symposium. At that early date, the nonsense being laid out by Lear, Cooper, English, etc. was clearly exposed for what it was, thanks to Moore digging, in mole like fashion, into a little section of counter-intelligence land. I haven't read the book yet, and that would certainly help in seeing more about that slice of ufo history. But, I can remember talking to Moore before he gave that presentation. He was apparently in the middle of writing it. He told me the basic story, "of observing a counter intelligence operation in action", etc. and I remember thinking that was an invaluable revelation. I seem to remember, that in discussions following the MUFON conference revelations, that Moore would describe him encouraging Bennewitz to use his discriminating judgement and not take what he was passing on as necessarily being accurate. That was, reportedly, motivated by his (Moore's growing ) concern over Bennewitz' health. I noticed, that whenever I spent any time with Moore (prior to public presentations a couple of times), he encouraged a sharply discriminating inquiry approach. He asked if I had read "The Unicorn's Secret", the tale about Ira Einhorn, his conspiracy theories, and his murdering ways. He also asked what I thought about the developing story by Bob Lazar. And, looked at it with an idea of doing so to develop a discriminating inquiry. That's why that I have to say that the whistleblowers you listed are what I feel are "fabulists". People fashioning fabulous stories. Wolf, Lazar, Burisch. And others. All taking some variation of the tales told by Lear and Cooper a couple of decades back and creating their own mini-series drama. Burisch, in particular, seems to have a big theater (in cyberspace) and a large audience kept enthralled by increasingly melodramatic dramas. I am beginning to wonder, Michael, if the single most useful tool we have nowadays is Peter Davenport's National UFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:28:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:47:44 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:20:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico Hello Mr. Smith, <snip> You wrote: >Believers will believe no matter what. Man, I can almost see that little vein on your forehead pumping up and down as you call me, "believer". <LMAO> Geez, give some people enough rope and they hang themselves! First, you don't know me well enough to know what I believe or not. Apparently it was intended as an 'insult' of some sort. Coming from you I'm not at all surprised. AJ and Santiago have treated you with courtesy and respect and in spite of their polite accommodations every one of your responses to them have been dripping with thinly veiled sarcasm and blatant condescension. I don't know who you think you are mister, but that kind of behavior doesn't go unnoticed. It doesn't do much for the value of your stock. Know what I mean, Vern? Knowing myself much better than you ever will, allow me to tell you what I am... what I am is; a lot closer to the core of a phenomenon that you can only hope to approach from its outermost perimeters. What I am is _real_ experience, as opposed to your pretend to know what you're talking about or dealing with. I am an honest, hard working, straight-shooting family man, Mr Smith. Unlike yourself, I actually have a legitimate reason for being here and participating. Your credentials as a UFO researcher are non-existent. My honesty, personal integrity and character has been established by independent investigation. I have been vetted, checked ou' by people who actually took the time to do it. Not people like yourself who think it's okay to make up crap and say anything they want to about people. And only because they can hide behind a computer keyboard. It's the kind of false bravado only a genuine coward could demonstrate. Try insulting me face to face, Jim. It's not so easy to do 'live' - I promise you. Face to face, I don't think you'd say "boo" to me. ;) And, I can see who and what you are, coming from miles away. ;) I almost feel sad/sorry for you. >>My warmest regards to you Mr. Deardorff, stay well. Keep in >>there swinging! ;) >Yes, support your local balloon releaser. You mean support someone who wants 'reality' and 'real conditions' as opposed to someone whose satisfied to settle for 'simulations' and other forms of fakery? Then you betcha I support Jim Deardorff. He's into "real" - You on the other hand are willing to settle for simulations and 'close-enough' but only as long as it supports your own, ahem, 'beliefs.' ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:39:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:49:30 -0400 Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico - Velez >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:18:31 -0500 >Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:19:59 -0400 >>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:20:25 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:24:41 -0700 >>>>>Subject: Re: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico ><snip> >>>>>(b) The hypothesized balloons continue to rise, but do so all at >>>>>the same rate so that their rising motion is not noticeable in a >>>>>video that tracks them. This is now your key problem. Their ><snip> >>>One of the videos Jaime Maussan has shown, for the 8:30 AM 11 >>>April 2005 event in Mexico City. Video #2, say, in: >>>http://www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico/ >>>Right now you need work just on the hoaxer's problem of getting >>>all balloons up there and in close, but random positions, and >>>then having them maintain those positions relative to each other >>>for about a minute. >>Jim, Jim, Jim, >>Oh how you waste your time my friend. James Smith for all his >>feigned pretension of honest skepticism, is quite the opposite. >>If Smith is able to accept the sloppy 'proof' that Mr. Franz >>presented recently while demanding precision and strict >>adherence to empirical procedure from the Mexican research >>community, contrary to what his mouth says, what he actually >>does is to prematurely arrive at conclusions and apply a double >>standard to everyone else. Hi Alfred, You write: >Thanks for kicking over his rock, John. Needed doing. I don't know how AJ and Santiago can put up with his sarcasm and condescension. Those guys have so very accommodating toward Smith and he just continues to talk down to them as if they were beneath his contempt. Balls! I think Smith has an unbelievable crust declaring cases "closed" and "solved" solely because -he- proclaims them so. Who does this fellow think he is? Where does he come off? Even Phil Klass tried to keep more shade on his real motives than this guy does. Mind you, Klass was as obvious as they come. So saying that Smith is less subtle than Klass is really saying something! <lol> Alfred, he called me a "believer!" You know, the debunker's 'F' word! <Hee-Haw>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 A Brief Starchild Update From: Lloyd Pye <lloydpye.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:44:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:18:05 -0400 Subject: A Brief Starchild Update May 11, 2005 It is exactly 90 days since the last Starchild update, and much has happened to it and to me. In late February I moved from London to the U.S. because the cost of living here is substantially less. Also, I returned with a new partner, Amy Vickers, an Aussie lass I met in London. We intend to be happy and productive. Productive is the key word. I=92m here to write a book about my six-plus years as caretaker of the Starchild skull. I expect to finish all of it by the end of this year=97except the final chapter. That will be revealed to all of us over the next few months as the final rounds of technical testing play themselves out. Another major event for me is that my personal website, www.lloydpye.com, has been completely overhauled for the first time in seven years. It has entered the 21st century with a dazzling array of new pages and features. The most important addition is 15 slide shows of about 10 slides each. Some are more than 10, some less, but all are designed to graphically illustrate the differences between Intervention Theory and Darwinism or Creationism. Together, those slides make an overwhelming case for outside Intervention is all aspects of life on Earth. Let me politely but firmly urge everyone to find time to view those few dozen slides and read the few lines of text under each. Those images and that information will shake at least some of your mental foundations and rattle around inside for a long time to come=97guaranteed. There are, of course, other pages of interest. I have my three best screenplays posted with thumbnail descriptions, detailed synopses, and the full text of each script. Each one is topnotch, having been optioned multiple times by Hollywood producers. That means they seriously tried to arrange financing for them, but none was ever successful. You want a hard game? Movies are a hard game. Something else new is a humor page. That one you have to see for yourself. Essays and short stories remain, but with additions and subtractions from the old pages. My books are presented, the two available now and the four that will be available as Amy formats them for Print-On-Demand. If any synopses or sample chapters ring your bell, let us know and we=92ll let you know when it=92s ready. Oh, and there is new biography text and a new photo with it. That obscured one in front of the pyramids is finally history. With that said, let=92s turn to the Starchild. When last I reported in February, we had been gifted with enough funding to continue testing its bone for the next six to ten months, expecting definitive results to be achieved in that time. We remain hopeful that will be the case. Further testing is underway, and will continue until nothing more of significance can be accomplished. Let=92s pause for a quick but critical review of our recent past so we can better envision our potential future. When the Starchild=92s DNA was tested, its mitochondrial DNA (very durable) could be easily recovered. That revealed its mother was a typical Amerindian who would have lived in northwestern Mexico 900 years ago. However, despite being well preserved by spending nine centuries sheltered from outside elements in a mine tunnel under a thin coat of dirt, the Starchild=92s nuclear DNA (relatively fragile), containing its father=92s genetic package, could not be recovered=97in four attempts! Why not? Because the primers were not picking it up. Nuclear DNA primers are designed to recover from humans, not alien-human hybrids. So while the Starchild=92s entire nuclear DNA package could well be recoverable (and very likely is), there is no way to go after it until geneticists WANT to, enough to design new primers to search beyond strictly human parameters. This effort could be paid for with a small fortune, but since we continue to struggle merely to survive, this is not in our immediate future. The lack of suitable primers leaves us holding a kind of genetic bag that has to be filled in other creative ways. One of those ways is to break the Starchild bone down into its constituent elements, taking it apart almost molecule by molecule to compare it with a similar breakdown of human bone. This is happening now. As of late last week, much of the chemistry analysis had been done on the inorganic constituents. When that is complete, analysis of organic constituents will begin. When both are completed, those doing the analyses should have a much clearer picture of what is and isn=92t human-like about the Starchild=92s bone. From there we will follow their advice regarding where and how to proceed. I plan to begin actually writing the book about the Starchild in July. Recently I=92ve been collating notes, arranging them in their proper sequences. I also intend to ask a couple dozen people who were closely involved in it in one way or another (you know who you are) to send me an essay about their experience with it. I will insert those comments throughout the book so it=92s not just me, me, me for 300 pages. Other voices should be heard, and they will be. Between now and July, I have two major speaking engagements in Washington State, both highlighted in the =93News=94 page on my new website. On Saturday, May 28th, I speak in Bellingham at the Sasquatch Research Conference. This one is about Hominoids, and I intend it to be one of the most important ever given in this field. Seriously. If you know anyone in the Seattle-Bellingham area, please give them a heads-up about it. I=92m one of a dozen speakers, and the cost is only $40 for the weekend. Contact Jason Valenti at 360-758-2443, or go to www.sasquatchresearch.com. The following weekend I=92ll be at the 5th Annual UFO/Paranormal Conference AND the 1st Annual Sasquatch Symposium in Seattle. I=92m the first speaker on Saturday morning, and I=92ll be giving a visual tour of what we=92ve been through and where we stand at that point with the Starchild. It will be the most up-to-date information I can provide, and by then there should be a completion of at least the inorganic testing. If you want to know about it first, be there in Seattle, Saturday morning, June 4th. Contact Charlette Lefevre at clefevre.nul or go to www.seattlechatclub.org. Okay, that=92s it for now. Thanks for listening, and be sure to check out the remarkable changes at www.lloydpye.com. For that I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Mark LaRose in Louisiana for designing the original format, to Andrew Johnson in England for formatting the slide shows, and to my partner Amy for doing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 11 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:20 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:44:53 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 >Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >An updated and improved research guide is now available at the >TNA [The National Archives] web site - paper copies are also >available at TNA. It is viewable at the following link: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 The history has some odd discrepancies. It describes a major media campaign in October 1950 that supposedly gave prominence to flying saucers in the UK for the first time. The campaign was said to be based on major newspapers serializing the Heard, Scully and Keyhoe books. The history next relates: "The media campaign of 1950 led some very senior establishment figures to ask questions and others began to press the Government for action." Examples were then given including Sir Henry Tizard who because of this media campaign supposedly then requested the creation of the Flying Saucer Working Party in the DSI/JTIC in August 1950.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:46:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedman >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >>There are many assumptions that Bishop makes that can be >>seriously criticized. First should Richard Doty and William >>Moore be believed that the information they fed to Bennewitz was >>in fact disinformation, rather than rumors of disinformation >>being spread to discredit Bennewitz and his legitimate claims of >>extraterrestrial bases with captive humans? Bishop certainly >>concludes the former from his interviews with Doty and Moore, >>and curiously doesn't consider the latter possibility as >>seriously worth considering. If Bennewitz was the subject of a >>disinformation campaign, as most agree was indeed the case, then >>should one find credible the testimony of individuals directly >>participating in such a campaign? Bishop paints a sympathetic >>picture of Moore as someone who unintentionally overstepped the >>bounds of sensible research principles and cooperated with the >>'wrong side' so to speak. The same cannot be said for Richard >>Doty who was a professional in AFOSI and was a direct part of >>the campaign to discredit Bennewitz. Bishop seems too eager to >>accept Doty's and Moore's' versions of events that the >>information Bennewitz claimed concerning underground >>extraterrestrial bases and captive humans was in fact >>disinformation fed to Bennewitz. ><snip> >I don't know about Richard Doty, but I am sure Bill Moore could >be counted on to be credible when he essentially laid out his >self-destructive bombshell before that MUFON symposium. At that >early date, the nonsense being laid out by Lear, Cooper, >English, etc. was clearly exposed for what it was, thanks to >Moore digging, in mole like fashion, into a little section of >counter-intelligence land. >I haven't read the book yet, and that would certainly help in >seeing more about that slice of ufo history. >But, I can remember talking to Moore before he gave that >presentation. He was apparently in the middle of writing it. He >told me the basic story, "of observing a counter intelligence >operation in action", etc. and I remember thinking that was an >invaluable revelation. >I seem to remember, that in discussions following the MUFON >conference revelations, that Moore would describe him >encouraging Bennewitz to use his discriminating judgement and >not take what he was passing on as necessarily being accurate. >That was, reportedly, motivated by his (Moore's growing ) >concern over Bennewitz' health. >I noticed, that whenever I spent any time with Moore (prior to >public presentations a couple of times), he encouraged a sharply >discriminating inquiry approach. He asked if I had read "The >Unicorn's Secret", the tale about Ira Einhorn, his conspiracy >theories, and his murdering ways. He also asked what I thought >about the developing story by Bob Lazar. And, looked at it with >an idea of doing so to develop a discriminating inquiry. >That's why that I have to say that the whistleblowers you listed >are what I feel are "fabulists". People fashioning fabulous >stories. Wolf, Lazar, Burisch. And others. All taking some >variation of the tales told by Lear and Cooper a couple of >decades back and creating their own mini-series drama. Burisch, >in particular, seems to have a big theater (in cyberspace) and a >large audience kept enthralled by increasingly melodramatic >dramas. >I am beginning to wonder, Michael, if the single most useful >tool we have nowadays is Peter Davenport's National UFO >Reporting Center. A lot of the information that is "out there" >(like ufoconspiracy.com) just seems like it comes out of that >new modern journalistic school of "Fabulists": people crafting >exciting stories that are not based on actual events/people, >etc. I worked closely with Bill Moore for several years. He has his faults as do we all. I would take his word any time over that of Michael Salla's so called whistleblowers such as Lazar, Wolf, Milton William Cooper etc. Fabulist is a good word. Michael Salla , I have trouble believing much of what you say because you have so blindly accepted nonsense from these guys. I am sure that the government is laughing it's head off at seeing you do so much well written disinformation... perhaps misinformation would be better. Sure the government has lied.They can at least hide behind national security. But what excuse can Lazar, Wolf et al provide? You want to believe that Corso was on the National Security Council. If you do any checking (I know, not your style) you will find that the NSC's membership is determined by Statute. He had none of the positions that would have permitted him to be named a member.Do you have any reason to claim that the Eisenhower Library was lying when they said he was not a member and did not attend any meetings? A referral letter about him makes clear he was a liaison man... not a member. I have copies. Archivists aren't perfect, but I surely have far more reason to believe them
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Filer's Files #20 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:20:58 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #20 =96 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International May 11, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. New UFO photos The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent a factual UFO sighting Articles this week include: APOLLO 14 and 15 photos show that UFOs were spotted in 1971, on the Moon. NASA'S Spitzer Telescope sees signs of alien asteroid belt , A planet is born out of the dust, and Mars present day water features. UFOs were seen over Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Louisiana, Maine, New Jersey, North Dakota, Virginia and Washington. Sightings were also reported in Australia, Argentina, Canada, Cyprus France and Mexico. . Moon UFO spotted in 1971, APOLLO 14 photo In this shot during Apollo 14, the shape of the object looks like the one of a flying saucer with lights! Reference: NASA AS14-70-9836/37. There are two avenues of thought here. Firstly, the debunkers say if these really were UFOs why would NASA release the pictures, since they are part of a conspiracy to keep this info from the pubic. Secondly, UFO proponents say that if NASA did NOT release them, then everyone would holler "cover up, " and they were hiding UFOs. Although, this may be some sort of reflection of lights off the Command Module windows the lights appear to be caused by some sort of craft. Thanks to UFO Case Book. Moon UFO spotted in APOLLO 15 photo. Mission Dates: July 26-August 7, 1971,-CDR: David Scott, CMP: Alfred Worden, LMP: James Irwin Importance: First use of the Lunar Rover, extended Lunar exploration time, focus on field geology. NASA archives (photo No AS15-85-11514) Astronaut David Scott on slope of Hadley Delta. UFO is seen at top just right of center. On August 2, 1971. The large light remains unexplained. The astronauts also found want appeared to be constructions on the Moon. Thanks to UFO Case Book. http://www.ufocasebook.com/bestufopictures.html If UFOs are visitors from another planet much of our science is in error, so we must consider new foundations for our knowledge, thinking and beliefs. NASA'S telescope sees alien asteroid belt NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope has spotted what may be the dusty spray of asteroids banging together in a belt that orbits a star like our sun. The discovery offers astronomers a rare glimpse at a distant star system that resembles our home, and may represent a significant step toward learning if and where other Earths form. "Asteroids are the leftover building blocks of rocky planets like Earth," said Dr. Charles Beichman, California Institute of Technology (Caltech). Beichman is lead author of a paper that will appear in the Astrophysical Journal. "We can't directly see other terrestrial planets, but now we can study their dusty fossils," he added. Asteroid belts are the junkyards of planetary systems. They are littered with the rocky scraps of failed planets, which occasionally crash into each other, kicking up plumes of dust. In our own solar system, asteroids have collided with Earth, the moon and other planets. If confirmed, the new asteroid belt would be the first detected around HD69830, a star about the same age and size as our sun 41 light-years away. There are two other known distant asteroid belts, but they circle younger, more massive stars. Our asteroid belt lies between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. In our solar system, Jupiter acts as an outer wall to the asteroid belt, shepherding its debris into a series of bands. Similarly, an unseen planet the size of Saturn or smaller may be marshalling the star's rubble. Snip www.spitzer.caltech.edu/spitzer Planet is born out of the dust In this artist's conception, a possible newfound planet spins through a clearing in a nearby star's dusty, planet-forming disc. This clearing was detected around the star CoKu Tau 4 by NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope. Astronomers believe that an orbiting massive body, like a planet, may have swept away the star's disc material, leaving a central hole. Thanks to NASA http://www.nasa.gov Mars present day water features Sir Charles W. Shults III writes there is clear evidence of current liquid water and its actions on Mars. The most important point in all this research is to establish that there is liquid water on Mars today. This can be done by presenting the evidence in the images along with terrestrial images that correspond to the features seen. This is a show of evidence of water, ice, mud, geysers, sinkholes, wash areas, and soil erosion features such as gullies. What makes this evidence so powerful is that the features in question often are so delicate that simple wind and dust storms would soon erase or destroy them. The fact that they are short- lived features yet we see them clearly on Mars now proves that they had to be formed recently; in some cases perhaps only hours before. The Mars Rovers have captured numerous photos showing small indentations in the ground that show evidence of water. Wind cannot form these areas because there is nothing to direct or concentrate the wind to a small spot. On nearly flat ground, with no obstacles, some force created tiny sinkhole-like depressions, each of which is filled with fine sand. Sol 063 was the best direct evidence for the presence of water to date from Opportunity. The area around Bounce Rock was clearly darker and wet, and showed an undercut from the flow of water as well. Stereo images prove that the soil is blown upward and washed out beneath in a manner that wind cannot duplicate. Only a liquid can create this result and this appearance. See photo. The bottom line is this- some fluid that is presently on the surface of Mars is creating these features. None of these features could survive for geological periods of time because of the weathering processes from dust storms alone. Therefore, they are being formed on a continuous basis. Water makes the soil darker, it sorts particles of sand from the spherules, and it flows freely through the ground. Water is the only material that fits all these characteristics. My conclusion is that there is presently liquid water on the surface of Mars today. http://xenotechresearch.com/mhydro1.htm Thanks to Sir Charles W. Shults III Alaska luminous UFO sighted NENANA - As 37-year-old John Kempen traveled the Parks Highway at about 2 AM, Saturday, April 23, 2005, he watched the sky, hoping to point out the northern lights to his girlfriend. Kempen saw a blur of emerald green, then a bright flash of bluish white light with sparks for a tail and fiery 'chunks breaking off. Kempen figured the object was a meteor. According to Neal Brown, director of the space grant program at the University of Alaska's Fairbanks Geophysical Institute, Kempen probably saw a piece of space junk. An estimated 5,000 to 10,000 pieces of useless debris orbit the Earth." Brown said. "Meteors don't have any blue or green or any colors,' he said, 'Most of the meteors are just rocks." "Secondly, the sighting was in the wrong part of the sky to be a Lyrid meteor, which would likely travel from northeast to southwest." Thanks to the Fairbanks, Alaska News-Miner News, and UFO Roundup. Vol. 10,# 17 4/27/05, Editor: Joseph Trainor Arkansas unknowns filmed in severe storm Timbo - I have some digital images I shot on April 28, 2005, between heavy rains, we had some boiling, rolling type cloud activity. We frequently see strange lights here. We recently got a fairly good Sony Cybershot 4.1 mega pixel camera. It is very dark here and we do see many military planes regularly flying under the radar, and barely missing the tops of our mountains. I am sending this particular shot first, since it is the one with the most unusual things within. In this image, right in the center is a circular light or spot that attracted my attention. When I enlarged it, I noticed to the left of the circular thing, is another "something" more solid looking. Then, I panned all the way to the left of the picture and I saw up in the left upper corner another solid looking thing with two different colored lights. I was shocked to see this stuff in here, because I was only shooting clouds. Thanks to Brian Vike. http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D26 41 Arizona - Light PHOENIX =96 A fast flying "light/ball" flying over southern Arizona about 9 PM, on April 14, 2005, that lasted about four seconds or more then moved out of my line of sight. I=92ve seen meteor showers and have seen many shooting stars in my 29 years. I accepted it as a "strange shooting star" phenomena. Then at 11:49 on the same night, a fast flying dimly lit light, faster than all the planes I see constantly, moved for about 7+ seconds from a north to south east position then disappeared. It didn't burn out, it just was gone. I noticed the same sort of "light/ball" a few days prior. I saw the same sort of "light" fly into the Columbia River in Washington a few years prior. It had no impact or slash. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com SCOTTSDALE =96 John reports, "I was standing outside of my friend=92s house on the evening of April 14th at 9:30 PM, facing due North, near Highway I-101 when I saw a huge green fire ball that lit up the whole sky around itself and continued burning all the way down to the ground. It was as large as my thumb nail (at arm=92s length). I'm a little fuzzy on the distance from me but it looked as if it may have gone down in the Lake Pleasant. There was no noise so maybe it landed in the Lake! Thanks to Thanks, John California flying triangle HAYWARD - It was 10 PM, on April 14, 2005, my wife was outside smoking a cigarette. I was looking at Jupiter when I saw five glowing circles that were underneath a triangle shaped object fly across Jupiter traveling north. The glows were not lights like on an airplane but circle shapes that glowed real dim. Two were in front and two on either side. The glowing circles were in a chevron shape, but the whole craft was a triangle. It had no sound and flew across the sky in about 20 seconds, at least three times faster than an airplane. My wife is a computer programmer and I an animator; we are both intelligent well- educated people. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com MODESTO =96 R. David Anderson writes, "I took these two pictures on Thursday, April 21 at around 6 PM. There were two bright colored jets that flew in opposite directions and dark unidentified objects. They were almost on an intercept course. The darker shape was difficult to discern with the unaided eye, but I used the telephoto lens to get a close up shot. The dark objects were moving much faster than the jets. These objects appeared to simply "blink out" as the jets approached. I was fortunate to get off these two shots. The disk shaped UFO is also in the next picture that I took, but it looks a little more distant and blurry, yet it is there. These things have a tendency to disappear in mysterious ways. Thanks to R. David Anderson Colorado =96 UFO photo MT. ANTERO - Alfred Ballesteros has sent me the negatives of his trip to Colorado and Baldwin Creek. The photo shows a long and thin shaped flying object. The high speed of the craft may cause the elongation of the UFO that appears to be very long. The object appears to be part of the photo. Notice the object has perfectly symmetrical elements and is divided from its center, moving outward to its edges. Alfred writes, "My son, Chris and my grandson Jovon and I were on our way to Mt. Antero by Buena Vista when we stopped to take a picture by Baldwin Creek. This picture was taken on July 22, 2004, our third annual trip to a mountain for Jovon's 10th birthday. We didn't hear a thing and it wasn't noticed when the picture was taken. When I got home and developed the pictures, I noticed the UFO. There is no apparent wire or string relative to the angle of the object. Just like its appearance in other photos from around the world, it simply floats there defying explanation. The sequence of vacation photos provided are completely normal in every respect. Another frame, presently being examined, may contain a more distant UFO that appears more complex in shape and not just a slender tube. Thanks to Alfred Ballesteros and family. Florida pulsing red lights LEHIGH ACRES =96 The witness looked up to see a airplane that was not on a normal flight path and did not sound like a standard airplane that flies in and out of any of the local airports on April 13, 2005, at 12:30 AM. The witness states, "I spotted a dark orange, possibly red set of lights running almost perpendicular to the airplane. It started out looking like a meteorite but then began to flash in a pulsing fashion as it moved to the north. It seemed to go out completely a few times allowing a non-illuminated object to be seen, barely visible but still there. Both the plane and the object were unusual since they were flying higher than the normal traffic. The object itself would normally have been considered a standard large meteorite except for the fact that I've never seen one fall to the north in this area and I've never seen one glow and pulse like this. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Louisiana flying triangle photograph analyzed WESTWEGO =96 Dr. Don Burleson writes, "I have analyzed the 13-year old boy=92s photo that was taken at sunset on March 4, 2005." Under image processing, what first gives the impression of being a dark object with three lights comes to resemble something else altogether; the first image here is just a crop of the original, the second is a treatment by increasing the gamma value, and the third is an edge find. As you can see, there is room for doubt as to whether there is really anything solid in the middle of this configuration of lights; in some images it appears to be a trio of small, bright objects with nothing substantial connecting them- or a connection, possibly, by some sort of force-field? Thanks to Dr. Don Burleson New Mexico MUFON Maine dark bird like UFO BRUNSWICK =96 The Nanny writes, "On May 3, 2005, about 10:45 AM, at the Golf driving range...near BNA, my attention was drawn to large circling hawk type birds, when suddenly I saw 'another dark bird ' higher up that flew from southwest to northeast." I realized it was a silent and dark-gray non-reflective type of 'vehicle' moving quickly high up but below the cloud base." It made no sound. The craft had definite solidity and an oval shape, without wings nor tail. And it made, no 'contrails'. It was NOT a helicopter, Cessna, or airliner of any sort. The next day on May 4, 2005, at 1 PM, I saw another questionable, yet similar, object moving in same SW-NE direction. Thanks to The Nanny SEBAGO LAKE - When I was a small child 45 years ago, where my Uncle had a cottage I "met" a Nordic appearing being with a shiny face who was wearing a 'jumpsuit sort of clothing'. I remember standing near the woods outback of the camp while everyone else was either in the camp or down by the water. I was standing there looking up at him...not frightened although he was not anyone from the family or a friend or neighbor, nor was he a 'human' stranger passing by. I was 4 or 5 years old. I did not speak of this to anyone for over 38 years until recently. Yes, there are strange things happening and I wonder also if you consider our 'visitors' to be helpers of some sort who are looking out for life here on earth and keeping track of our 'progress', or our imminent dangers that we on earth have created. I do have very deep spiritual and metaphysical ideas/ideals/insights, which help me to understand or perhaps even accept life=92s weirdness, but I will confess to you dear Sir, that I was spooked a bit after the sighting last week. I felt that the craft was indeed on some sort of tracking mission. It took me a couple of days to get over it. Thanks to Nanny New Jersey couple spot UFO WEST MILFORD =96 An executive phoned to tell me, he was in his bedroom watching TV with his wife on May 7, 2005, at 11:30 PM, and she noticed a pulsating star with changing colors through the skylight above them. She insisted this was not an ordinary star, so they decided to look at it through a modified telescope. Looking through the eyepiece, the object consisted of two squares off center with bright changing lights in each point of each corner of the object. The eight brighter lights had lines connecting the two squares. Some smaller lights were inside the squares. The object seemed to consist of two square objects tethered together. The wife is from Russia and phoned her father who is former general in Soviet Air Defense. He stated matter of factually, "They had seen a UFO." He was instructed in school about disappearance of ships and the UFO phenomenon. They were frequently chased by Soviet fighters. North Dakota three clips of UFO footage DICKINSON - HBCC UFO Research Note: There is some excellent footage taken of this event, a lot more than I have posted here with the three video clips. In the first clips you can easily see the triangular shaped lights, but watching the video more lights appear from the top corners of the original lights. In the third clip, which is really interesting to watch, but watch closely as lights move rapidly vertically and looks like something out of a Star Wars movie? The photographer writes, "To help to understand the film it is very important to view the film because in night shot you can see all the trees and layout of the place I was filming! The trees are a key factor in which the lights disappear from time to time when I move to the right or left or up and down! I did not see all the trees in the dark and was just focusing on the moon! The film was taken in August or September 2004, during a blue full moon that was large and orange rising at sunset. As I started filming the first thing which I wanted to do is find the right distance with the zoom and the right mode and lighting settings! I already had it set at 20 xs so I left it there and began filming and experimenting. Even before it shapes into a triangle I guess you can see other smaller lights that match up with the other two lights as if they are coming off the main light! Now when it gets to four lights, closely resembling a square they seem to be right below the moon and you begin seeing other smaller lights morph off or just show up in line with them, and when I noticed the fourth one light up. They seemed to separate from each other or morph so to speak! Some people will say it is a lens flare or light reflection but take a good look at it and you will see how black it is and also the two glass-like lights right in the front of the craft! Even when I was filming I did not notice this! Video clips #1 #2 and #3 Dickinson, North Dakota Lights Leaving A Triangular Shape All three clips are a must see and can be found at: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D26 29All photos and footage is =A9 2005 DF. Thanks to Brian Vike Ohio disc filmed FOSTORIA - George Ritter videotaped this large object called 'Wow' on May 1, 2005, that may have been moving toward the camera. The RCA VHS video camera was shooting towards the east in the afternoon sky. The disc seems to be wobbling. It appears to fifty feet in diameter. Virginia luminous sphere investigated CLIFTON - Virginia MUFON Field Investigator Norman Gagnon writes I received an email from a Clifton, Virginia man, reporting that his wife witnessed something strange late in the night on March 23, 2005, during a storm. He reports, "We had a power outage last night and my wife was awakened by the answering machine clicking on and off as the power tried to recover, and then it went out completely. She went to the front door to see if it was raining or windy and saw a very large object hovering over a nearby house about an 1/8 of a mile from our house. It was larger than the house, seemed to be at an angle to her view with the bottom exposed and had lights all around it evenly spaced. When it began to move away, several lightning flashes were seen and then it was gone. The power returned two hours later". The next day he added that it would seem that his wife might have observed balls of lightning. "What she describes sounds just like a multiple ball lightning display which she says disappeared as she watched it, and then a bolt of lightning went up into the space above the house from the ground to where the lights had appeared to be". A telephone interview was conducted March 31, and we learned the sighting took place at 12:30 AM, during a thunderstorm, as she was facing south, towards Manassas. The appearance lasted just a few seconds, from the "balls of light" formation to the vertical lightning flash. It is my belief that this woman may have witness a natural, Rare Atmospheric Phenomena (RAP) involving multiple ball lightning, or Mobile Luminous Spheres. To be a witness of one or two of these lightning balls is rare, but witnessing a group of ten or more is phenomenal! According to Dominion Virginia Power website, their electrical outage summary dated 3/23/2005, indicated that there were about 24 homes that were affected by this storm in the Northern Virginia's Fairfax County area, temperature: 44 degrees, cloudy with rain, average humidity 81, wind 13 mph NE. Thanks to MUFON=92s Norman Gagnon Virginia crosses airport traffic Dulles Airport - On May 03, 2005, at 5:30 AM, the witness who lives in the direct flight path of all aircraft landing at Dulles Airport spotted a strange thing in the sky going in the opposite direction of planes landing at Dulles. This was definitely not a plane. It really stood out to me and it sort of "glided" across the sky without sound and over an industrial park and remained stationary. There were a lot of lights underneath it, not like your typical airplane which usually has lights on the wing and sides. The whole bottom was lit with red and white lights. I went inside for a moment and came back and it was gone. The strange thing is that although I live in an area where there is a lot of plane activity, this one really stood out to me. Thanks to Brian Vike Washington =96 Mother ship TROUT LAKE =96 James Gilliland writes, "A picture of what looks like a giant air craft carrier in the sky hovering was video taped by Steve Mareno with PSI Applications over the Gilliland Ranch. This is a still taken from the video. There is a great conference in Phoenix AZ. I will be there on the 13th of May showing the latest footage and photos at the Gilliland Ranch. People on your list might want to know. They can go to www.eceti.org and click on Phoenix Rising to get more information." Argentina animal mutilations continue LA PAMPA - Francisco Fazio writes, "Here in La Pampa Province we have two cattle mutilations. There have been several thousand mutilations reported in recent years, often with UFOs in the area." Thanks to Francisco Fazio from Argentina. Australia two believe in alien encounter BANORA POINT NSW =96 The witness reports, "I have something that has shocked our family and their beliefs of extraterrestrials. About 4 Weeks ago I noticed a cut on my back that was unexplained. The cut was about 3 inches in length, and was deep. There was no blood however. The cut has formed into a scar, which looks similar to that of a surgery related operation. My mother woke me this morning and complained of back pain. After checking, I realized that her cut was identical to my cut and I showed her mine. After taking photos, we both noticed that our scars were exactly the same length. Her's however, was on the left side of her back, and mine was on the more upper right side of my back. Both of us do not know how we acquired these straight line cuts, exactly the same length. My mother never used to believe in extra terrestrials or conspiracies, but now this incident has encouraged her to learn more. As this has only been discovered in the morning, we have not yet checked my Father or Brother to see if they have the same scarring in their backs. My mother's friend who is a Psychic medium is ready to do an evaluation of this. When I was a child, I saw three tall shapes around my bed, and another time I awaken to find my foot broken and nose bleeding. Also, I have seen a flaming red object in the sky, and just recently I discovered that a number of years ago my father saw a green object in the sky. We have, also, experienced a strange occurrence in our town, when a bright white light flashed in the sky over our town, causing a blackout. All of our town=92s power is underground. After noticing the scars, I have found it difficult to sleep. I have noticed sounds outside, and sometimes have a feeling that someone is outside looking in at me. I have heard strange noises at night, and sometimes our two dogs bark late at night, for reasons we don't understand. Both my mother and I have strange "Tingling" feeling around the scars. I usually notice this feeling when around water, or when I go to bed. I noticed mine four weeks before my mother noticed hers. Hers now, is beginning to form into what looks like a medical scar. We have checked, and both my brother and sister do not have scars on their backs. We are not sure if my father has scars. We do not know whether this is an implant, brand, or just a very strange coincidence." Photos or the scars can be viewed at: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D26 31 Canada unknown white object SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO - Hi again George, as promised, I would like to share, two more sighting reports that occurred on April 21, 2005, at 10:20 AM. I was sky watching on a very clear day on break at work when I spotted a defined brilliant white orb or probe at about 4000 feet, flying southwest towards Toronto. The object was moving quite fast 2-300 mph or more. Every 30 seconds to a minute another similar object would fly by. I grabbed my camera and snapped 5 pictures in trying to photograph what was flying high overhead. As luck would have it, I have in fact caught one on film. Later at lunch another larger round white object was sighted at 12:30 PM, facing west hovering about 2500 feet in the sky a half mile away. There was also a slight light field around this single white object. China many believe in extraterrestrials WUCHANG CITY - Meng Zhaoguo, a rural worker from northeast China's Wuchang city, says he was 29 years old when he broke his marital vows for the first and only time - with a female extraterrestrial of unusually robust build. "She was three meters tall and had six fingers, but otherwise she looked completely like a human." "I told my wife all about it afterwards. She wasn't too angry." While few Chinese claim to have managed to get quite as intimate with an extraterrestrial as Meng, a growing number of people in the world's most populous nation believe in unidentified flying objects, or UFOs. Officially registered UFO associations in China have about 50,000 members, but some estimate the actual number of Chinese interested in the subject is probably in the tens of millions. Sun Shili is one of the most serious enthusiasts, and he knows exactly where he will be the day the extraterrestrials finally make contact with mankind. The 67-year-old retired Beijing professor will be in the 21-member delegation picked by international UFO associations to represent Earth as the first negotiations get underway. Once a Spanish translator for Mao Zedong during high-level state visits. Sun says language will not be a problem. "We expect to communicate using telepathy," he says. In a country that has lost its spiritual bearings as Marxism has given way to materialism, the idea of strange worlds light years away offers a last great hope for many. Richard McNally, a Harvard psychologist, says he recognizes the pattern from research into Westerners who claim to have been abducted by aliens and who characterized the experience as "spiritually deepening". "Our abductees typically describe themselves as 'spiritual' individuals for whom organized religion provides scant spiritual nourishment. The Chinese UFO spotters may very well be like our subjects," McNally says. As Sun, the Spanish translator, sits one sunny spring morning in the Chinese capital, he points at the streets outside and explains how many of the people walking by are probably extraterrestrials in human guise. They are here to help mankind move human civilization on little by little, he explains. Shakespeare and Einstein were not from another planet, but they may very well have received inspiration from a galaxy far, far away. "It's estimated that 80 per cent of new inventions come to people in their dreams," says Sun. "Maybe this is how the extraterrestrials pass on their knowledge to us." France =96 UFO Photograph Analyzed PARIS - MUFON's Don Burleson PhD, writes, "Here's an image enhancement of that object photographed near the Eiffel Tower by Valerie Delalieux on April 28, 2005, about 2 PM. I've cropped, recontrasted, negativized and with used edgefind. Valerie and friends were on a school trip to Paris from Belgium and took a picture of the Eiffel Tower with a UFO. Thanks to Valerie and MUFON's Don Burleson NM State Director Cyprus UFO spotted NICOSIA-LARNACA HIGHWAY - A British resident reported seeing a UFO on April 27, 2005, when several other motorists all slowed down their vehicles to watch the UFO spectacle at around 8:45 PM. It was in front of me and as soon as saw it, I started slowing down and so did the people in front of me. "Then, it speeded up at an incredible speed, hundreds of miles an hour in seconds and literally disappeared in front of our eyes," the man said. "It was amazing." It looked like the kind of height of a low-flying plane or a helicopter. That=92s why I didn't immediately think it was odd and then as it started to move and speed up I thought, =91This is weird=92. It was a bright, white sphere of light hovering slowly," The man said he checked online yesterday morning and found that UFO sightings were not all that uncommon in Cyprus. It was not the kind of thing you could miss. It was incredible," he added. One Civil Aviation official said, "The radar does regularly register what seem to be aircraft but which disappear after three revolutions of the radar." "We call them Angels," said the official adding that they generally put these =91phantoms=92 down to weather interference. "Of course we are angels here ourselves," he said. UFOs have been spotted over Cyprus on many occasions in the past. In March 2002, a Swiss playwright who had just retired to Paphos, said he spotted a silver, saucer-shaped object 'emerging from the clouds' as he walked along the beach. The UFO apparently hovered before 'floating down' and disappearing behind some rocks." Snip Thanks to Cyprus Mail 2005 copyright =A9 and Skywatch-International http://www.skywatch- international.org/ Mexico =96 UFO fleet video released MEXICO CITY - New footage showing the April 11, 2005, UFO fleet over Mexico city was presented tonight on national television on the Los Grandes Misterios TV show hosted by Jaime Maussan as an update to the investigations on the UFO fleet. Video shows 54 UFOs. The video was taken by Raul Orozco the morning of April 11, 2005 and is consistent with the video taken by Arturo Robles Gil the same day at the same hour. The two men have never met. During the TV show a comparison with actual balloons was made to show the audience that the UFOs were not balloons. The results were dramatically clear and showed this was not a conventional aeronautic phenomenon. There was a UFO fleet videotaped the next day so it result impossible to believe that those balloons remained static on the sky all that time. Thanks to Santiago Yturria Donate to Filer's Files to receive UFO CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL - For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:32:00 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:23:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >I don't know about Richard Doty, but I am sure Bill Moore could >be counted on to be credible when he essentially laid out his >self-destructive bombshell before that MUFON symposium. At that >early date, the nonsense being laid out by Lear, Cooper, >English, etc. was clearly exposed for what it was, thanks to >Moore digging, in mole like fashion, into a little section of >counter-intelligence land. Now I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions because extraordinary stories don't have the extraordinary proof as demanded by researchers wanting to emulate Hynek's scientific methodology. While Hynek's method is appropriate for a pure scientific phenomenon, it is inappropriate for the world of black budget funded waived special access programs that Lear and Cooper allegedly had information about. Revealing classified information is a federal crime and to expect 'whistleblowers' such as Lear and Cooper to have hard evidence to back up every one of their 'wild claims' is very naive. Do you really think they could hold on to hard evidence for long if they were daring enough to keep some with them? What we need is a well thought out process for dealing with whistleblower testimonies rather than the general dismissiveness they earn from those wishing to model UFO studies on Hynek's research principles. >I haven't read the book yet, and that would certainly help in >seeing more about that slice of ufo history. >But, I can remember talking to Moore before he gave that >presentation. He was apparently in the middle of writing it. He >told me the basic story, "of observing a counter intelligence >operation in action", etc. and I remember thinking that was an >invaluable revelation. >I seem to remember, that in discussions following the MUFON >conference revelations, that Moore would describe him >encouraging Bennewitz to use his discriminating judgement and >not take what he was passing on as necessarily being accurate. >That was, reportedly, motivated by his (Moore's growing ) >concern over Bennewitz' health. Bishop discusses this in his book which gives the kind of sympathetic treatment to Moore that you are advocating. However, Moore used his friendship with Bennewitz to pass information to and from AFOSI. I don't want to dismiss his credibility as a researcher, but it shows that he compromised himself by being party to an AFOSI operation. It's something we can perhaps learn from but the victim was Bennewitz who was seeking genuine friends in his growing difficulties. Regardless of Moore's motivation, even if he was convinced he was passing on disinformation, his real role may have been to establish rumors that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation. Thus Bennewitz's material may have not been influenced all that much by the disinformation fed to him, but the rumor that everything Bennewitz was claiming was AFOSI disinformation was more damaging. That's an important distinction I hope you can see here. Moore played a direct role in legitimating such disinformation rumors as revealed in his 1989 MUFON lecture. Moore showed that he played a role in legitimating rumors or accusations that all Bennewitz was claiming was AFOSI inspired disinformation. That's where those defending Moore err since they haven't distinguished the difference between a discrediting campaign based on legitimating rumors of disinformation fed to the target, and a disinformation campaign aiming to discrediting a target. >I noticed, that whenever I spent any time with Moore (prior to >public presentations a couple of times), he encouraged a sharply >discriminating inquiry approach. He asked if I had read "The >Unicorn's Secret", the tale about Ira Einhorn, his conspiracy >theories, and his murdering ways. He also asked what I thought >about the developing story by Bob Lazar. And, looked at it with >an idea of doing so to develop a discriminating inquiry. >That's why that I have to say that the whistleblowers you listed >are what I feel are "fabulists". People fashioning fabulous >stories. Wolf, Lazar, Burisch. And others. All taking some >variation of the tales told by Lear and Cooper a couple of >decades back and creating their own mini-series drama. Burisch, >in particular, seems to have a big theater (in cyberspace) and a >large audience kept enthralled by increasingly melodramatic >dramas. Now we need to distinguish between different categories of whistleblowers. Lear, Cooper and English allegedly had information on a range of ET/UFO related issues but had no direct experiences with the extraterrestrials Bennewitz claimed to be located at Dulce. So this group are secondary sources on what occurred at Dulce, and Bishop is exercizing solid research method in avoiding secondary sources. On the other hand, Schneider, Wolf, Burisch, Castello claimed to have actually worked or visited Dulce, while Lazar claims to have read of it in a briefing document. They are therefore all primary sources and should have been cited even if Greg Bishop disagreed with them. That's where Bishop needs to be criticized for his ommission. Dismissing alleged primary whistleblower sources as "fabulists" may earn you points from some veteran Ufologists, but its a biased research methodology that shouldn't occur in a comprehensive study or book. >I am beginning to wonder, Michael, if the single most useful >tool we have nowadays is Peter Davenport's National UFO >Reporting Center. A lot of the information that is "out there" >(like ufoconspiracy.com) just seems like it comes out of that >new modern journalistic school of "Fabulists": people crafting >exciting stories that are not based on actual events/people, >etc. Unfortunately Davenport dismisses UFO sightings reported by witnesses at specific locations such as James Gilliland's Mt Adams in Washington State or CSETI sightings which have multiple witnesses at mulitiple locations. It appears that for a sighting to be reported it has to fit a set of 'scientific criteria' first established by Allen Hynek. However, if one reads Hynek's The UFO Experience, one notes the sophistry with which he dismisses repeated sightings at a single venue or sightings by the same set of observers. These cases are simply excluded from Hynek's recommended database even if hard evidence exists in the form of photos, film, multiple witnesses; therefore Hynek's/Davenport's research method provides an incomplete picture of the UFO phenomenon. That's probably my biggest gripe with veteran UFO researchers, they exclude whistleblower testimonies because they claim there's no 'hard evidence', and at the same time they exclude 'hard evidence' of many UFO sightings because they argue these need to be reported by independent witnesses in independent locations. UFO research as a 'pure science' alone cannot solve the UFO enigma due to the political and national security element which is inherent. That's my plug for an exopolitics approach.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:56:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:25:43 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:20 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 >>Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>An updated and improved research guide is now available at the >>TNA [The National Archives] web site - paper copies are also >>available at TNA. It is viewable at the following link: >http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 >The history has some odd discrepancies. It describes a major >media campaign in October 1950 that supposedly gave prominence >to flying saucers in the UK for the first time. The campaign was >said to be based on major newspapers serializing the Heard, >Scully and Keyhoe books. The history next relates: >"The media campaign of 1950 led some very senior establishment >figures to ask questions and others began to press the >Government for action." >Examples were then given including Sir Henry Tizard who because >of this media campaign supposedly then requested the creation of >the Flying Saucer Working Party in the DSI/JTIC in August 1950. >But August 1950 is 2 months _before_ the big "media camapaign" >of October 1950. Clearly Tizard's Working Party had nothing to >do with any "media camapign." I thought the Working Party had >been set up because of disturbing RAF UFO sightings. Brad, The "history" does indeed have some odd discrepancies. It's been adapted - without my permission - from an article that I wrote in the April 2002 issue of UFO Magazine: http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm As you can see, large chunks of The National Archives Research Note 6 (most notably paragraphs 2 - 5) have been taken, verbatim, from this article. I make no accusation of plagiarism, because all material on my website may be freely used, for non-commercial purposes, provided the source is quoted and it's not taken out of context. Notwithstanding the above, I think my article gives a more balanced view of the British Government's UFO Project -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 PRG Media Announcement - May 11, 2005 From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:29:16 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:26:56 -0400 Subject: PRG Media Announcement - May 11, 2005 PRG Paradigm Research Group Media Announcement PRG Executive Director, Stephen Bassett, will be interviewed on Sunday, May 15, 9 pm EST by legendary actress, writer, producer, director, activist and philanthropist, Shirley MacLaine. They will discuss exopolitics in all its ramifications, and of course, the great hanging question of "disclosure." Shirley's show on Independent Expression Radio is available at: www.shirleymaclaine.com ________________________________________________________ Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul URL: www.paradigmclock.com Cell: 202-215-8344 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: Brazilian UFO Magazine Website Visits Hits From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 05:51:50 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:30:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Magazine Website Visits Hits >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:09:40 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian UFO Magazine Website Visits Hits Record >Dear Colleagues: >I write this message only to share with you an >absolutely extraordinary achievement. The counter of >the Brazilian UFO Magazine website: >www.ufo.com.br) >registered the amazing number of 53,711 hits from >yesterday, 10 May 07:00 am, to today, 11 May 06:45 >a.m. - less than 24 hours. >This projects a new average of daily visits to our >website, of about 26,750 everyday - it was 14,443 - >or something as large as 800,000 hits per month. The >most visited area of the site is the one with the >Mexican flotillas and a few other videos: >www.ufo.com.br/exclusive/mexico Congratulations Ademar!! These reactions from the people just reveal and confirm their legitimate interest to be informed about the Mexican UFO fleets phenomena, something that is certainly amazing the world again, just like in May last year
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:44:11 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:32:08 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:20 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 >>Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>An updated and improved research guide is now available at the >>TNA [The National Archives] web site - paper copies are also >>available at TNA. It is viewable at the following link: >http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 >The history has some odd discrepancies. It describes a major >media campaign in October 1950 that supposedly gave prominence >to flying saucers in the UK for the first time. The campaign was >said to be based on major newspapers serializing the Heard, >Scully and Keyhoe books. The history next relates: >"The media campaign of 1950 led some very senior establishment >figures to ask questions and others began to press the >Government for action." >Examples were then given including Sir Henry Tizard who because >of this media campaign supposedly then requested the creation of >the Flying Saucer Working Party in the DSI/JTIC in August 1950. >But August 1950 is 2 months _before_ the big "media camapaign" >of October 1950. Clearly Tizard's Working Party had nothing to >do with any "media camapign." I thought the Working Party had >been set up because of disturbing RAF UFO sightings. Hi Brad You are correct. The dating of the media campaign to October 1950 is at variance with what is stated in DSI/JTIC Report No 7, the final Working Party report of June 1951: "Investigation of incidents in the United Kingdom "During the summer and autumn of 1950 the British press gave considerable publicity to reports of alleged sightings of luminous bodies travelling at high speed, usually after dark, but occasionally in daylight. The Air Ministry also received a number of letters from members of the public with similar reports." Which of these - "October 1950" or "summer and autumn of 1950" - is the more accurate would have to be determined by research of UK press sources. However the Report does here imply that the Working Party was at least in part motivated by press publicity and civilian sightings. On the other hand the only incidents considered in any detail at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: Those Pesky Believers - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:12:29 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:33:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers - Miller >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:32 -0300 >Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:23:15 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Those Pesky Believers <snip> >>Source: CNN >http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/05/06/mars.lander.ap/index.html >>Friday, May 6, 2005 >>Mars Lander Wreckage Found ><snip> >Perhaps as surprising, as stated by Malin on Discovery ca's >Daily Planet, is the fact that when pushed to do so the Mars >Global Surveyor can get higher resolution images of a >specified area on the Mars surface by a factor of three and >with a reduction in signal to noise by a factor of two.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 All The Cool Aliens Are Heading To McMinnville From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:36:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:36:47 -0400 Subject: All The Cool Aliens Are Heading To McMinnville Source: The Statesman Journal - Salem, Oregon http://159.54.226.83/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050512/ENT/505120309/1059 May 12, 2005 All The Cool Aliens Are Heading To McMinnville Keynote speaker for the UFO Festival says he removes alien implants Angela Yeager Statesman Journal The UFO Festival in McMinnville brings out the believers and the nonbelievers each year. It is the mingling of the serious alien enthusiasts with those who just want to party while wearing antennas that makes this festival so unique and interesting. The sixth annual festival, which is today through Saturday, was created to celebrate the legacy of the famous Trent abduction case in McMinnville. There also is a parade and an alien costume ball as well as a film festival. Alien experts also will converge to talk about crop circles and alien implants with the kind of seriousness usually reserved for PERS. The keynote speaker is Roger Leir, a California podiatrist who has written five books on the subject of alien implants. He has performed 11 surgeries to date to remove "alien implants" from abductees. He performs the surgeries for free through his nonprofit organization, A&S Research. Leir also was a consultant on the TV show "X-Files" and has appeared on programs on the History Channel and SciFi Channel. We had the opportunity to chat with Leir on the phone before his appearance. Statesman Journal: When did you first become interested in the subject of alien abduction? Leir: Well, I've sort of been interested in the phenomenon since childhood. I remember my father bringing home the newspaper in 1947 and laying it on the kitchen table and reading the Roswell headline. My father had this whole dissertation on how we can't be the only beings in the universe. And I've always been interested in flying and ufology. I went to this meeting of the International Mutual UFO Network on a whim in the late 1980s or early 1990s. I went, and it wasn't what I thought. I expected to see a lot of nutcases with flying propellers on their heads, but there was an interesting cross section of males, females. There was an interesting presentation, and there were home-baked cookies, so that really did it. Abduction was becoming quite popular in that time. I was still not a believer. At this conference I went to, I met a researcher who claimed he met this person who had alien implants and showed me a set of X-rays of this woman's foot. I thought it was the biggest bunch of bull I ever heard. I examined the X-rays, and it looked like pieces of metal in the foot, which isn't uncommon with certain types of foot surgery. But her medical records showed the woman never had surgery. In August 1995, I did my first two surgeries. There was a foot and a hand case. SJ: What did you find in the foot? Leir: The first thing I noticed is that there was no scar on either one of these cases. I couldn't see where any object could go in. The first thing I took out was in the big toes. It was a T-shaped thing covered with dark-gray biological coating. I had never seen anything like that before, and the general surgeon (assisting) hadn't either. The other item was small cantaloupe-shaped thing that turned out to be a metal rod that was highly magnetic. We received funding for testing from the National Institute for Discovery Science. Since then, everything we remove, we have tested at labs. SJ: So this convinced you? Leir: I certainly became a believer that something is out there. SJ: What is the strangest thing you found in someone? Leir: There is one that really blew me away, even now when I think of it. There was a lady who came in, she had a marble- sized object in her arm that moved. And if you put your finger 2 inches away from it, it would come toward your finger. When we removed it, it was a pea-sized yellow object that was completely biological. It was not attached to anything. Now, I've done surgery for over 40 years, and I've never seen anything like it. SJ: Why do you think aliens would be implanting humans with these objects? What would the purpose be? Leir: I get asked this question more than anything. I can only theorize. Anyone who says they have the answer is not being truthful. In a nutshell, my theory is I think these are devices made for monitoring the manipulation of the genetics of the human race. There have been studies done of growth characteristics of children worldwide. Do you know what I mean by that? SJ: Um, I'm not sure. Leir: Normal growth characters such as when children raise their heads, learn to climb stairs, crawl. These same statistics are accelerating worldwide anywhere from 16 to 80 percent. It's either an act of God or the human race is being genetically manipulated. SJ: So are you saying you think the aliens are accelerating our development so we learn to do things faster? Leir: Exactly. We grow faster so we learn faster. We are very disjointed from our spiritual self, so maybe that's part of it. We have many lessons to learn before we destroy the entire planet and not a lot of time to learn them. SJ: So the aliens are trying to help us. Why would they do that? Leir: I don't think the aliens have any great love for the human race. The universe is probably teeming with intelligent life. We don't have the best track record. We've bathed this planet in blood forever. But when you get into things like nuclear weapons that could destroy everything, maybe they don't like it. SJ: You're not one of the people that believe then that aliens are hostile or out to destroy us then? Leir: If they were hostile, they would have eaten us a long time ago. UFO sightings go back thousands of years. They've had plenty of opportunity to get rid of us if they wanted. SJ: How do you feel about festivals like the one if McMinnville that combines the serious UFO people with the ones who go to the parade? Leir: It's just like Roswell. I was there at the 50th anniversary celebration, and there are alien puppets and balloons. Lots of people came to have fun, but they also saw the serious side. I think that's just fine. If you took the whole
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: All The Cool Aliens Are Heading To McMinnville From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:08:42 -0400 Subject: Re: All The Cool Aliens Are Heading To McMinnville >Source: The Statesman Journal - Salem, Oregon >http://159.54.226.83/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050512/ENT/505120309/1059 <snip> >The sixth annual festival, which is today through Saturday, was >created to celebrate the legacy of the famous Trent abduction >case in McMinnville. "Abduction case?" Are they calling all UFO sightings "abductions" now? Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 12 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:11:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:22:00 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - Hello List, I checked my clippings and found several UK news articles prior to October 1950. I also found many that I have no date for. Here are a few of those which I could identify dates for: 3-4-1950 Daily Mail "The case forthe Flying Saucer" Part 1 of a special 2-day feature by Richard Greenough 11-4-50 Herald News Sighting by 3 girls in Preston Other similar reports in unidentified publications 7-6-1950 Daily Express "I saw a saucer" RAF pilots reports FS over South Coast 7-6-1950 Daily Herald "First Flying Saucer reported here" Reportedly first official report of a FS over Britain being investgated by the Air Ministry 13-6-50 (Publication unknown) "RAF 'shoots down' Flying Saucers" Stanley Bushop Experts say they are only air whirlpools 9-7-50 (publication uknown) "Flying Saucer Riddle" General FS article, author unknown. 28-7-1950 (publication uknown) "Flying Saucer seen again" (FS over Isle of Wight) This is not an exhaustive list, but does show that there was significant coverage before October 1950. There seemed to be a significant increase in column-inches covering the topic in the latter part of the year though.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Lazar Right On Alien Antigravity Systems? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:21:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:21:42 -0400 Subject: Lazar Right On Alien Antigravity Systems? Source: Raider News Update http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/lazar.htm May 12, 2005 Have Scientists Just Proven Bob Lazar Right On Alien Antigravity Systems? By Thomas Horn Senior RNU News Reporter In 1989, Robert Scott Lazar claimed to have worked as a physicist at a hidden base referred to as S4 on a highly classified project involving back engineering of alien technology, antigravity and antimatter propulsion. Stanton Friedman doesn't believe him. But have scientists just proven Lazar was right all along? RNU.com =96 (Raiders News Update) - Yesterday, in the article, "How to float like a stone", science correspondent for The Guardian, David Adam wrote that what goes up no longer has to come down. Quoting researchers who announced their results this week in the New Journal of Physics, Adams noted that, "British scientists have developed an antigravity machine that can float heavy stones, coins and lumps of metal in mid-air. Based around a powerful magnet, the device levitates objects in a similar way to how a maglev train runs above its tracks." The article went on to quote Peter King, physics professor at Nottingham University, as saying, "We can take an object and float it in mid-air because the magnetic forces on the object are enough to balance gravity." The device evidently exploits diamagnetism by placing non- magnetic objects inside a strong magnetic field where they are forced to act like weak magnets themselves. A field is created that is stronger below and weaker above. The resulting upward magnetic force cancels out gravity. To make the anti gravity machine even more powerful, the team used an oxygen and nitrogen mixture to create a paramagnetic fluid. Inside the magnet, the mixture helps the objects float. US space agency Nasa notified the team that it is interested in their zero gravity research. UFO buffs may recall a man named Bob Lazar [left] discussing a similar antigravity propulsion system over a decade ago, one that he said came from aliens. Lazar claimed to have worked as a physicist on a highly classified government project, called Galileo, which involved back engineering of alien technology. The research supposedly took place at a hidden base known only as S4, a few miles south of Area 51. At the time, Lazar said he and others were working on extraterrestrial craft hundreds of years in advance of modern technology. He also claimed to have seen a total of nine different types of saucers as well as documents and autopsies of alien corpses. The saucer-type he professed to have worked on had a diameter of 9-12 m with a console and small, children- sized seats. He said he was told the aliens arrived in the vessel from the fourth planet of the binary stellar system Zeta Reticuli 2. In "On the Record" with investigative reporter George Knapp, September 12, 1989, Lazar said the alien craft flew by amplifying gravity waves through use of a reactor and an alien element--atomic number 115--an ore not found or synthesized on earth. When asked to explain how the alien antigravity system worked, the program took an interesting twist: Lazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . . 115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower portion of the craft. But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown. Knapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything. Lazar: Right. Knapp: Working parts? Lazar: None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back- engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with earthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress. Knapp: How long do you think they've had this technology up there? Lazar: It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know. Knapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it do? Lazar: It converts anti-matter . . . It doesn't convert anti- matter! There's an annihilation reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent conversion of matter to energy. Knapp: How does it work? What starts the reaction going? Lazar: Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated. Knapp: Automatic. Lazar: Right. Knapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or anything? Lazar: No, there's no button to push or anything. Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent- efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator. Knapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that you were talking about earlier? Lazar: Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous amount of electrical power, which is almost a by- product. The gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone really knows. The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that gravity wave. Knapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field. Lazar: Their own gravitational field. Knapp: You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we didn't create it? Lazar: Right. Knapp: Why not? Why couldn't we? Lazar: The technology's not even=97we don't even know what gravity is! Knapp: Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is? Lazar: Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles, gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is I' m not exactly sure. Knapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What does that allow you to do? Lazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method going from Point A to B, now you can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad, you almost bring your destination to you without moving. And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time. [1] Now, have British scientists proven Lazar was telling the truth? Have they let the alien anti-gravity-cat out of the bag? I asked nuclear physicist and renowned UFO investigator Stanton T. Friedman. Here is what he said: The simple answer is no. One could also say a rocket was an antigravity device because its exhaust leads to it moving upward whereas gravity pulls it down. A pulley arrangement for lifting something is not an antigravity device. The use of magnetic forces as in the magnetic train (maglev) that is noted in the article is not new. It does not create a gravitational field. It does not nullify gravity. A force is exerted which is upward. Gravity is still there. There is no connection whatsoever between this sort of device and the Lazar science fiction device which is as mythical as his supposed degrees from MIT and Cal Tech and his employment as a physicist at Los Alamos. Check out my article on Lazar at my website www.stantonfriedman.com. Incidently, magnetoaerodynamic devices such as I described in my Congressional testimony in 1968 and in various papers can also exert upward forces... but are not anti-gravity. It is also true that 4 atoms of Element 115 were created at a huge accelerator in Dubna. Half life was in the millisecond range. Lazar claimed at one time that Los Alamos had 500 pounds. No way Jose. Half life is too short. Stan Friedman I also decided to ask scientist Stan Deyo about the subject. Stan has held Above Top Secret Security Clearance, worked undercover for the FBI, and was part of an exclusive "black project" headed by Dr. Edward Teller specializing in the development of "flying saucer technology". Here's what Stan said: Hi, Tom, Stanton and I concur about Bob and his mythical tale about his involvement in the Area 51 program. Furthermore, I agree with Stanton on the erroneous assertion in the article above. Using two magnets to levitate masses with low magnetic permeability is not "antigravity" in the strictest sense. It is magnetic levitation - not something altering the gravitational field. I find Bob's story about his history being erased by the government hard to believe. According to him, even his high school record was erased.... Does that mean all the kids who went to school with him had Bob's photo removed from their personal copies of their high school annual books? Does that mean all Bob's fellow students and his teachers in ALL those schools and universities he allegedly attended found him so unremarkable that they cannot remember him in school with them? I don't know why Bob apparently fabricated so much of his story.... It just muddied the water for those trying to ferret the truth of the suppressed technologies and alien presences on our world. It is true that electricity can be produced by thermionic conversion within a small bandwidth of infrared radiation by allowing it to fall upon a tribo-luminescent stratum which, itself, forms part of a tuned, resonant-cavity circuit.... I am pretty certain that T. Henry Moray (and possibly Harry E. Perrigo) made primitive forms of this circuit. Element 115 is not necessary to supply the thermal energy in a thermionic conversion process. I will be presenting a talk in Roswell this year at the third "Ancient of Days" conference. There, I will present my thoughts on the emerging concept of "gravity" being a vector sum between divergent and convergent spinning waves around the center of spin of a mass. I will address the issue of why gravity appears to be such a weak force when in reality gravity is the resultant of much larger div/con wave vectors. Hope this helps clear the water a bit.... Stan Following Stan's comments, I think I see a sequel to this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Back To The Saucers From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:24:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:24:44 -0400 Subject: Back To The Saucers Source: The Guardian - London, UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,1481442,00.html May 12, 2005 Back To The Saucers By Mark Pilkington In February 2004, a team of Russian and American physicists discovered two new elements, glimpsed for split seconds at the Joint Institute of Nuclear Research in Dubna, Russia, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. Led by Russian Yuri Oganessian, the physicists made their announcement in the journal Physical Review C. While their findings have yet to be repeated, they are considered highly reliable. The two new "superheavy" elements, 113 and 115, provisionally named ununtrium and ununpentium, excite physicists who think they are generated by exploding stars, and could provide clues to the origins of the universe. But this was not the first time Element 115 had made the headlines. According to another group of perhaps less reputable researchers, it might be the key that ultimately brings the stars to us. In 1989, a Las Vegas TV station broadcast an interview with self-professed scientist Bob Lazar. He claimed to have worked at a top secret facility called S-4, just south of Nevada's infamous airbase Area 51, and caused a sensation when he described seeing nine extraterrestrial flying saucers stored at S-4. Lazar, who claims to have studied at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory, states that his job at S-4 was to "back-engineer" the reactor of one of the flying discs and find out how it worked. While there, he was briefed on the history of ET interaction with humankind, and watched a short test flight of the single operational craft. According to Lazar, the saucer flies using "gravity amplifiers" to create "an intense gravitational field" that could "distort space/time", "bringing the destination to the source and allowing you to cross many light years of space in little time". The power to do this is generated in the craft's reactor, which is fuelled by ... Element 115. Whether or not he's telling the truth, Lazar has stood by his claims and left the UFO scene behind. As well as running a lab equipment repair company, he is currently developing a hydrogen fuel generator for home use and is involved in an ambitious plan to terraform a Martian environment in an underground nuclear missile silo. And, if Element 115's existence is confirmed, perhaps one day it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 World-Renowned Scientists To Address 'Astrobiology' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:41 -0400 Subject: World-Renowned Scientists To Address 'Astrobiology' Source: University of California - Los Angeles http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=3D6137 Date: May 11, 2005 UCLA Conference Brings Together World-Renowned Scientists to Address 'Astrobiology: Life Among the Stars' Contact: Stuart Wolpert ( stuartw.nul ) Phone: 310-206-0511 A UCLA symposium on Friday, May 13, will feature internationally renowned scientists addressing "Astrobiology: Life Among the Stars." Topics will include the search for planets and life beyond our solar system, the implications if life is discovered on other planets, and latest results from the Mars Rovers. Free to the public, the 16th annual symposium sponsored by UCLA's IGPP Center for the Study of Evolution and the Origin of Life will be held in UCLA's Schoenberg Auditorium (near Hilgard and Westholme avenues) from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. It is non- technical, and designed for a general audience. Participants at the symposium will be: - Daniel S. Goldin holds the distinction of being NASA's longest-serving administrator, an appointee of three U.S. presidents. He initiated NASA's Origin Program to study how our solar system formed, how life on Earth began and to explore whether life exists elsewhere in the universe. It was his vision to search for Earth-like planets within a hundred light-years of our own; he has been a vigorous proponent for exploration to determine if water and life have existed elsewhere in the solar system; and it was under his direction that repairs in orbit were first made to the Hubble Space Telescope. Currently, he is a senior fellow at the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego, where he is engaged in the development of biologically inspired robots and computers, and founder of the Intellisis Corp., which focuses on high-tech consulting and biologically based technologies. - David J. Stevenson serves as the George Van Osdol Professor of Planetary Science at CalTech. He is the recipient of numerous awards, including a Fulbright Fellowship (1971=9676), the Urey Prize of the American Astronomical Society (1984), and both the Whipple Award (1994) and the Hess Medal (1998) of the American Geophysical Union. His research focuses on the internal structure and evolution of planets, the application of fluid dynamics and magnetohydrodynamics to the understanding of such structure and evolution, and the origin of solar systems. - Steven W. Squyres is the Goldwin Smith Professor of Astronomy at Cornell University, where he has been a faculty member since 1986. Since his days as a graduate student associate of the Voyager Mission Science Team, for more than two decades he has played an active role in 16 space flight missions =97 to comets, asteroids and solar system planets =97 currently serving as a member of the Imaging Science Team for the Cassini Mission to Saturn, co-investigator on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Mission and principal investigator of the recent Mars Exploration Rover Mission. His research interests center on the robotic exploration and photometric and spectroscopic properties of planetary surfaces, and the geophysics, geochemistry and tectonics of Mars, Venus and icy satellites. - Charles Elachi is director of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and vice president of CalTech. He is co-investigator on the Rosetta Comet Nucleus Sounder experiment and team leader of the Cassini Titan Radar experiment investigating Saturn and its surroundings. Principal investigator on numerous NASA research- and-development studies and flight projects, he is a member of the National Academy of Engineering and recipient of NASA's Distinguished Service Medal, Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal and two Outstanding Leadership Medals. - Lynne Hillenbrand is an assistant professor of astronomy at CalTech. She held postdoctoral fellowships at UC Berkeley and CalTech; in the latter position, she studied star formation at the extremes: in its earliest stages and at its lowest masses. Her research has been directed most recently towards understanding the evolution of circumstellar disks and the process of planet formation in these disks. - Jon M. Jenkins is co-investigator on NASA Ames' Kepler Discovery Mission, a project designed to search for Earth-like planets far beyond our solar system. In 1992, he was appointed a principal investigator at the SETI (Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence) Institute in Northern California, where he has served as a principal investigator on NASA's Pioneer Venus Guest Investigator Program (1992=9694), the Venus Data Analysis Program (1994=9695) and the Planetary Atmospheres Program (1995=9697, 1998=962000). As co-investigator of the Kepler Mission, Jenkins is responsible for designing and developing the heart of the system, a signal processing chain that will survey some 170,000 Sun-like stars to detect transiting Earth-like planets where life may possibly exist. - Edward L. Wright has been a professor of astronomy at UCLA since 1981. Since 1978, he has been a member of the Science Working Group for the COsmic Background Explorer (COBE), an Earth-orbiting satellite designed to measure radiation produced by the Big Bang. An expert on cosmology and infrared astronomy, he currently is interdisciplinary scientist on the Science Working Group of the Spitzer Space Telescope, a project with which he has been involved since 1976, as well as co- investigator on the Microwave Anisotropy Probe, a mission launched in 2001 as a follow-up to the COBE discovery of fluctuations in the early universe and designed to observe the formative stages of superclusters of galaxies. He is the principal investigator on the Wide-field Infrared Survey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Scaring Up Paranormal Profits From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:36:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:36:30 -0400 Subject: Scaring Up Paranormal Profits Source: BusinessWeek Online - U.S. http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2005/tc20050512_6388_tc024.htm May 12, 2005 News Analysis By Olga Kharif Scaring Up Paranormal Profits Interest in the spirit world and UFOs is growing, and entrepreneurs are making money from it by providing high-tech ghost-hunting gear To the right person, it would be downright eerie. Electronics equipment - electromagnetic-field detectors, white-noise generators, infrared motion sensors - jumping off store shelves for no apparent reason. Groups of otherwise sensible people paying good money to spend a night in a soon-to-be-closed movie theater. Folks on the Internet trolling for brass dowsing rods and crystals that ward off negativity. This is the lucrative business end of the paranormal. Skeptics may scoff at ghosts and UFOs, but the profits some businesses are making off the spirit world are no mere phantoms. Scores of small businesses, selling ghost-hunting equipment, ghost investigation services, and even ghost counseling, are booming outside of their prime season, Halloween. Several companies recently introduced new devices billed as ghost detectors. And a cable TV show dedicated to ghost hunting is conjuring up viewers for the Sci-Fi Channel. TV TIE-IN. The business is thriving thanks to enthusiasts such as Justin Faulk, an electrical engineering student at Oklahoma State University in Stillwater. The 21-year-old has been a ghost hunter for three years, prowling abandoned buildings, haunted houses, and cemeteries. Faulk owns $2,500 worth of ghost- detecting gear, including equipment designed to check for changes in electrical fields that might indicate either the presence of UFOs - or defects in home wiring. Faulk says he recently took his gear out to an abandoned hospital that's said to be haunted. He walked into empty rooms with peeling paint that invoked intense feelings of fear. He saw pebbles tossed across a narrow hallway from an unseen source - but no definite signs of ghosts. "In most haunted places, there are no knives flying out of the cabinet, like in the movies," laughs Faulk, who is thinking of going into business making ghost detectors himself. How big is the paranormal market getting? It's hard to tell, as most businesses in the field are small, privately owned, and don't report revenues. But owners say they're getting a boost from the reality show Ghost Hunters, which debuted on the Sci-Fi Channel last October and has been renewed for additional episodes. In the program, two plumbers moonlight as ghost hunters. The Sci-Fi Channel said the show was attracting 1.4 million total viewers six weeks into its run, a 37% increase over the time slot's previous occupant. REVENUES COME TO LIFE. The paranormal boomlet is such that some small businesses are actually starting to make a decent living at it (previously, most ghost hunters investigated for free, and home owners who hired them were warned that real ghost hunters wouldn't smoke or drink during their overnight quests). Alamo City Paranormal in San Antonio, Tex., - said to be one of the most haunted regions of the country - claims to own $80,000 worth of special ghost-detecting gear and charges $50 and up for its investigations. It also offers para-counseling services (that's where a counselor talks to, say, a child who believes there's a ghost living under her bed), as well as popular ghost tours of downtown San Antonio, haunted, the story goes, by the spirits of hundreds of soldiers who died in the 1836 battle of the Alamo. Between 15 to 20 ghost seekers show up for nightly San Antonio tours, which run an hour and a half and cost $10 for adults, reports Martin Leal, Alamo City Paranormal's owner. A favorite part of the tour, Leal says, is when the tourists get to play around with the ghost detectors for 20 minutes or so. Leal says revenues, which have been flattish for years, grew 21% in 2004. He's now trying to take his association of a dozen local companies charging for ghost-hunting services, called the American Alliance of Professional Ghost Hunters, nationwide. DIFFERENT MOTIVES. More serious amateurs can hang onto the detection gear longer during numerous ghost-hunting overnighters, offered by the likes of Bump in the Night Tour Co. in Illinois, run by two authors of ghost books. Lured by the possibility of spending a sleepless night watching for spirits in a haunted movie theater, a witch cave, or a cemetery, enthusiasts flock to these tours, so most of them sell out months in advance. Then there's all that equipment. There's science, albeit shaky, behind the devices on offer. UFOs might disturb an area's electromagnetic field, some believe. Ghosts can cause fluctuations in magnetic fields, radio waves, or light. Much of the gear that ghost hunters use measures these things - but hasn't been designed specifically with ghosts in mind. However, they add scientific credibility to the pursuit. ("You don't believe in ghosts? Look at this magnificent magnetic-field readout. Look at this beautiful pie chart. Would technology lie?") Many of those selling the gear for the paranormal market are believers, while others are skeptical about everything except the bottom line. At Hamburg (N.J.)-based Abate Electronics, orders for detectors had doubled from 2003 to 2004, to about 300 units, says owner Frank Abate, a retired Air Force engineer who claims to have seen a UFO and have had an out-of-the-body experience. His devices, priced at $29.99 and up, depending on features, can sound an alarm when detecting changes in the magnetic field, just so you don't miss a ghost wafting by. Its light indicator starts flashing, too, which "is fun for the kids," he says. "FUN-LOVING ENGINEERS." Considered the Jaguar of ghost detectors is AlphaLab's TriField Natural EM Meter, selling for around $300 and measuring magnetic, radio-wave, and electric-field changes. The company, which sells about 200 such detectors a year, is considering making a detector that can draw an image based on the changes in the electromagnetic field it's detecting, says CEO David Lee, who has a PhD. in physics. Lee says he doesn't believe in ghosts but is undecided on the existence of UFOs. In April, a Japanese company called Solid Alliance released a purported ghost detector complete with embedded memory and lights that flash in a different pattern depending on what the gadget has detected. Douglas Krone, CEO of Solid Alliance's U.S. distributor, Dynamism, is a bit unsure whether the device, selling for $119 and up, is for real or a joke: The Japanese inventors wouldn't tell him how it works. To be safe, Krone clings to his healthy skepticism: "It's just a small plastic toy made in China," he says. "They're just fun- loving engineers who love to dream up stuff." Yet, Krone says, he's been inundated with inquiries from ghost hunters and paranormal magazines. SENSITIVE INSTRUMENTS. Indeed, lots of skeptics choose to pooh- pooh the high-tech readouts. The James Randi Educational Foundation in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., run by the magician known for his debunking of paranormal claims, offers a $1 million reward to a person who proves the existence of the paranormal. Over the years, Randi has been all over the world testing applicants. He claims to have disproved all self-proclaimed mediums and even Uri Geller who, under Randi's watchful eye, couldn't bend his spoons. "People move into old houses, they hear creaking noises at night, and they say they have a ghost," says Randi. "But it's simply an old house." It's the high-tech equipment of the ghost hunters that Randi has no patience with, though. "These sensitive instruments will react to anything: Your cell phone, the fillings in your teeth, a lightning storm hundreds of miles away," he says. But that's not stopping people such as Faulk, the Oklahoma State student, who has been hard at work designing a better, ghost- specific detector that he hopes to start selling later this year. "The market isn't huge, but the people who are [ghost hunting] will appreciate it," he figures. "I'm not going to retire at 25." However, if the ghost business maintains its uptrend, he might be wrong about that. ---
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 How To Float Like A Stone From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:39:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:39:39 -0400 Subject: How To Float Like A Stone Source: The Guardian OnLine - London, U.K. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1481009,00.html#article_continue May 11, 2005 How To Float Like A Stone David Adam Science Ccorrespondent The Guardian What goes up no longer has to come down. British scientists have developed an antigravity machine that can float heavy stones, coins and lumps of metal in mid-air. Based around a powerful magnet, the device levitates objects in a similar way to how a maglev train runs above its tracks. Peter King, a physics professor at Nottingham University, said: "We can take an object and float it in mid-air because the magnetic forces on the object are enough to balance gravity." The device exploits diamagnetism. Place non-magnetic objects inside a strong enough magnetic field and they are forced to act like weak magnets themselves. Generate a field that is stronger below and weaker above, and the resulting upward magnetic force cancels out gravity. Scientists have used diamagnetism to make wood, strawberries and, famously, a living frog fly. "That force is strong enough to float things with a density similar to water, but not things with the density of rocks," Prof King said. To make their machine more powerful, the team added an oxygen and nitrogen mixture, a paramagnetic fluid. Inside the magnet, the mixture helps objects to float. The researchers, who announce their results today in the New Journal of Physics, are working with Rio Tinto to develop the technique to sort precious stones from soil. The US space agency
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:43:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:27 -0400 >Subject: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >Filer's Files #20 - 2005, >Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >Vice President of Skywatch International >May 11, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com <snip> >Moon UFO spotted in 1971, APOLLO 14 photo >In this shot during Apollo 14, the shape of the object looks >like the one of a flying saucer with lights! Reference: NASA >AS14-70-9836/37. There are two avenues of thought here. Firstly, >the debunkers say if these really were UFOs why would NASA >release the pictures, since they are part of a conspiracy to >keep this info from the pubic. Secondly, UFO proponents say that >if NASA did NOT release them, then everyone would holler "cover >up, " and they were hiding UFOs. Although, this may be some sort >of reflection of lights off the Command Module windows the >lights appear to be caused by some sort of craft. Thanks to UFO >Case Book. >Moon UFO spotted in APOLLO 15 photo. >Mission Dates: July 26-August 7, 1971,-CDR: David Scott, CMP: >Alfred Worden, LMP: James Irwin Importance: First use of the >Lunar Rover, extended Lunar exploration time, focus on field >geology. NASA archives (photo No AS15-85-11514) Astronaut David >Scott on slope of Hadley Delta. UFO is seen at top just right of >center. On August 2, 1971. The large light remains unexplained. >The astronauts also found want appeared to be constructions on >the Moon. Thanks to UFO Case Book. >http://www.ufocasebook.com/bestufopictures.html <snip> Hi George! The large light at the top right of center of the photo of Apollo 15 moonwalker Dave Scott is nearly identical to another one of Apollo 16 moonwalker Charlie Duke that is also found in the UFO Case Book web site. http://www.ufocasebook.com/bestufopictures3.html Notice that in both photos the "UFO" seems to be at about the same elevation above the lunar horizon. From the shadows of both astronauts, the "UFO" is exactly between them and the Sun. Since the same type of camera was used on the surface of the Moon for Apollo 15 and 16, your unexplained large light is now explained. It is a camera created optical reflection artifact or image and not a real object. This is further supported by the many other lunar still pictures, some of which are also included in the same UFO Case Book web site. These other "UFOs" appears only in photos taken with approximately the same Sun angle. The astronauts did not make any references to or comments about their alleged encounters with UFOs on the Moon during their encounters with the alleged "UFOs" while on the Moon or when they were debriefed back on Earth. Since these "UFOs" are absent in the live moving images that were seen by all here on Earth which were taken with a different camera and Sun angles, to me this is further evidence that these "UFOs" are really optical reflections. As for the picture of the Apollo 14 "UFO", I agree with you that this saucer shaped image it is very likely a reflection off the spacecraft window of something inside the darkened Apollo 14 Command Module. Apollo 8 and 13 astronaut Jim Lovell once told us of how one less experienced fellow astronaut was shocked to see such a similar UFO after waking up from sleep. It turned out
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:44:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> >I worked closely with Bill Moore for several years. He has his >faults as do we all. I would take his word any time over that of >Michael Salla's so called whistleblowers such as Lazar, Wolf, >Milton William Cooper etc. Fabulist is a good word. Aloha Stan, this is not a matter of comparing different sources and comparing them to one another. in terms of whose word is more trustworthy. It's looking at the context in which these individuals made claims, participated in investigations, etc., that competent researchers try to make sense of. Bill Moore voluntarily chose to play a role in disseminating rumors that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation with the purpose of ultimately discrediting Paul Bennewitz. That was poor judgement and certainly something that rightly did not endear him to many researchers. I think those wanting to defend Moore wrongly assume that Moore's poor judgement is mitigated because he warned Bennewitz that the information from AFOSI was disinformation. That is mistaken. Moore played a key role in spreading rumors that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation and this was the basis of Bennewitz's extravagent claims regarding ET bases and captive humans. So Moore continued to play a role in discrediting Bennewitz even at the 1989 MUFON conference when he came clean. He was used by AFOSI to do this and became a fly in the AFOSI trap. As for Lazar and Wolf, both allegedly worked at S4 and made claims that have been investigated by competent researchers who disagree over the conclusions. We've already debated Lazar and I'm sure will soon do the same regarding Wolf. Cooper has his Navy background which he claimed gave him access to classified documents with information on UFOs/ETs due to the security classification he needed for his position on the briefing team for the Commander of the Pacific Fleet. Cooper openly supplied his service record to validate his background, and while his testimony over the years has changed, it's his military background that can't be ignored, and gives him some credibility. Trying to compare these individuals in terms of whose word can be trusted is like comparing apples and oranges. >Michael Salla , I have trouble believing much of what you say because >you have so blindly accepted nonsense from these guys. I am sure >that the government is laughing it's head off at seeing you do >so much well written disinformation... perhaps misinformation >would be better. Sure the government has lied.They can at least >hide behind national security. But what excuse can Lazar, Wolf >et al provide? Stanton, who defines 'nonsense' here? Just because someone doesn't supply sufficient hard evidence or supporting documents to meet your stringent standards doesn't mean they are disseminating nonsense. You are asserting your methodological bias as the benchmark standard for whistleblower or witness credibility. Sensible people can disagree over methodology and reach divergent opinions in particular cases. Claiming someone is disseminating 'nonsense' or that a researcher is 'blind' because they accept in whole or part the testimony of a whistleblower or witness is a useful rhetorical method but really doesn't address the inherent research difficulties in this field. You for example accept that the government 'lies', but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. Are you being sensible or naive here? Am I being gullible in accepting claims that the 'secret' government does indeed resort to these tactics to discredit individuals? We can debate all day but resorting to dismissive labels such as nonsense, blind, etc., doesn't help anyone or answer these basic questions. Yes, the 'government' lies, but does the government remove, alter or destroy evidence to make one out to be a liar? >You want to believe that Corso was on the National Security >Council. If you do any checking (I know, not your style) you will >find that the NSC's membership is determined by Statute. He had >none of the positions that would have permitted him to be named >a member.Do you have any reason to claim that the Eisenhower >Library was lying when they said he was not a member and did not >attend any meetings? A referral letter about him makes clear he >was a liaison man... not a member. I have copies. Archivists >aren't perfect, but I surely have far more reason to believe them >than your so called whistleblowers. I know you disdain hard >evidence. How about presenting soft evidence if you want the >world to believe these claims?. I'm surprised you bring this up. Here is what the bio on the back jacket of Corso's book says: "Colonel Philip J. Corso USA (Ret) was a key Army intelligence officer who served on General MacArthur's staff in Korea and later in Dwight D. Eisenhower's National Security Council as a lietanent colonel." Corso did not claim and could not possibly have been a member of the NSC which comprises the heads of different government agencies and departments as you well know. Why do you ascribe to Corso something that he never claimed? Anyone with any experience regarding the operations of the NSC would know that each member of the NSC has a staff comprising career professionals and military officers such as Lt Col Corso who would not necessarily attend actual NSC meetings but would be there to assist the NSC member s/he is assigned to or to assist in the operations of the NSC as a whole. That's the nature of staff support and Corso's position as a 'liaison man' meant that he had to be aware of what was happening at the meetings to report back to his superiors, without necessarily being present. It's worth pointing out that the operational procedure and attendence of NSC meetings is classified information so we will not the full story on who attended meetings and what was discussed. As for the Eisenhower library having no record of Corso attending NSC meetings or being a member of the NSC, you asked them the wrong questions. As a staff member, Corso did not have to be necessarily present at NSC meetings to fulfill his functions, nor was he a member of the NSC as we know. If you asked the Eisenhower adminstration if Corso was a member, then of course the answer would be no. That was an elementary mistake on your part. So what's your point here about the Eisenhower administration lying? You should have asked the Eishenhower library whether the list of staff members assigned to President Eisenhower NSC is classified information, and whether the attendence at NSC meetings in terms of staff representatives is also classified information. In both cases, the answer would most likely have been 'yes' which explains the answers you got. FOIA would not help you get the attendence of NSC meetings since it's not covered under FOIA so there would be no way of you getting such information unless it was declassified. It's not mine or Corso's problem if you asked the wrong questions and didn't get the validation you were seeking.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09:31 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:45:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:27 -0400 >Subject: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >Filer's Files #20 - 2005, >Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >Vice President of Skywatch International >May 11, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com <snip> >The photographer writes, "To help to understand the film it is >very important to view the film because in night shot you can >see all the trees and layout of the place I was filming! The >trees are a key factor in which the lights disappear from time >to time when I move to the right or left or up and down! I did >not see all the trees in the dark and was just focusing on the >moon! >The film was taken in August or September 2004, during a blue >full moon that was large and orange rising at sunset. As I >started filming the first thing which I wanted to do is find the >right distance with the zoom and the right mode and lighting >settings! I already had it set at 20 xs so I left it there and >began filming and experimenting. >Even before it shapes into a triangle I guess you can see other >smaller lights that match up with the other two lights as if >they are coming off the main light! Now when it gets to four >lights, closely resembling a square they seem to be right below >the moon and you begin seeing other smaller lights morph off or >just show up in line with them, and when I noticed the fourth >one light up. They seemed to separate from each other or morph >so to speak! <snip> >three clips are a must see and can be found at: >http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D26 >29All photos and footage is =A9 2005 DF. Thanks to Brian Vike Hi George! =46rom what the person experimenting with the video camera tells us, we can clearly conclude that the footage of this massive UFO over North Dakota were simily just stationary lights on the ground seen through the leaves of distant trees! This conclusion is further supported by the distorted image of an orange coloured Moon which is frequently seen when it is just rising. If the Moon was indeed rising above the west when the video was taken, then this imagined UFO below cannot be in the sky since it would have to be several degrees below the horizon! This is just another honest but easily explainable video footage
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:22:23 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:46:57 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:11:59 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >Hello List, >I checked my clippings and found several UK news articles prior >to October 1950. I also found many that I have no date for. Here >are a few of those which I could identify dates for: >3-4-1950 Daily Mail >"The case forthe Flying Saucer" >Part 1 of a special 2-day feature by Richard Greenough >11-4-50 Herald News >Sighting by 3 girls in Preston >Other similar reports in unidentified publications >7-6-1950 Daily Express >"I saw a saucer" >RAF pilots reports FS over South Coast >7-6-1950 Daily Herald >"First Flying Saucer reported here" >Reportedly first official report of a FS over Britain being >investgated by the Air Ministry >13-6-50 (Publication unknown) >"RAF 'shoots down' Flying Saucers" >Stanley Bushop >Experts say they are only air whirlpools >9-7-50 (publication uknown) >"Flying Saucer Riddle" >General FS article, author unknown. >28-7-1950 (publication uknown) >"Flying Saucer seen again" >(FS over Isle of Wight) >This is not an exhaustive list, but does show that there was >significant coverage before October 1950. There seemed to be a >significant increase in column-inches covering the topic in the >latter part of the year though. <snip> I think the issue is not whether there was some publicity, but major publicity, and whether that was what caused Tizard to set up the Working Party in August 1950 or whether it was the RAF
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:29:55 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:48:48 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:44:11 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:20 EDT >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 >>>Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >>http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 >>The history has some odd discrepancies. It describes a major >>media campaign in October 1950 that supposedly gave prominence >>to flying saucers in the UK for the first time. The campaign was >>said to be based on major newspapers serializing the Heard, >>Scully and Keyhoe books. The history next relates: >>"The media campaign of 1950 led some very senior establishment >>figures to ask questions and others began to press the >>Government for action." >>Examples were then given including Sir Henry Tizard who because >>of this media campaign supposedly then requested the creation of >>the Flying Saucer Working Party in the DSI/JTIC in August 1950. >>But August 1950 is 2 months _before_ the big "media camapaign" >>of October 1950. Clearly Tizard's Working Party had nothing to >>do with any "media camapign." I thought the Working Party had >>been set up because of disturbing RAF UFO sightings. >Hi Brad >You are correct. The dating of the media campaign to October >1950 is at variance with what is stated in DSI/JTIC Report No 7, >the final Working Party report of June 1951: <snip> >Which of these - "October 1950" or "summer and autumn of 1950" - >is the more accurate would have to be determined by research of >UK press sources. However the Report does here imply that the >Working Party was at least in part motivated by press publicity >and civilian sightings. Hi Martin and Brad! The big media campaign in 1950 did bring out what was until then top secret multinational investigations into flying saucers by Britian, the U.S. and Canada. These investigations can be traced back to 1947 and the ghost rockets of 1946 seen over much of Europe (and possibly further back to the alleged UFO crashes and recoveries of wreckage in Italy, Germany and other countries prior to WWII). Doing a Google search using "Tizard" and "DRB" (Canada's Defense Research Board which had an involvement in the investigations of flying saucers under its chairman, Dr. Omand M. Solandt) I found a paper by J.L.C. Carrier which shows that in addition to Britain and the U.S., Canada too was in the loop in regards to UFO matters from 1947 onwards. http://198.231.69.12/papers/nssc5/carrier.doc Below is a short snip from this paper. "...they sent off Sir Henry Tizard on a mission to Ottawa and Washington to explore the best methods of integrating military research between the three countries. From that moment on, no questions of patents rights or of security would interfere with complete Canadian participation in the scientific war effort. Mackenzie, Chairman of NRC, having obtained agreement that Canada would be treated as a full partner, opened liaison offices in London and Washington and UK and US scientific liaison offices were established in Ottawa." In a reply to me by Don Ledger on the CANUFO List, Don said he has documents showing that orders were cut on May 9, 1950 to send RCAF staff to Washington to be brought up to date on the flying saucer question. See "UFO" Joe Daniel's web site below under 'The Avent Trip To Washington For UFO Study' for a summary of some of these documents. http://ufo-joe.tripod.com/xfiles/arkc.html In a related reply by Stan Friedman, he dug back in his files and found the declassified 300 page DRB file which he used to write 'The Canadian UFO Scene that he prepared for MUFON 1987. This file (DRB file 3800-10-1-1) consisted of 3 volumes and contained a large number of flying saucer reports dating back to 1947. For reasons that are still not clear at this time, Stan was informed that two volumes of this important three volume DRB file have since been destroyed and is no longer available to researchers. Among the many interesting things Stan mentions in his MUFON 1987 paper is that after U.S. Project Saucer was completed about 1950 (see Jan Aldrich's web site for further details), "...it was found desireable to solicit Canadian reports. At the 220th meeting of the JIC (Joint Intelligence Committee) on the 12 April, 1950, UFOs were discussed and the following decisions were reached: a. DSI (Directorate of Scientific Intelligence) and DAI (Directorate of Air Intelligence) were to collaborate in preparing a questionnaire to be distributed to field intelligence officers of the three services and the RCMP. b. DAI is to coordinate the investigation methods in the field. c. All field reports were to be passed to DSI for official examination on behalf of DND." So as we can see, there was plenty of interest in UFOs at the highest levels among the British, Americans and Canadians prior to the big media campaign of 1950. In his e-mail Don also talked about a fading Old Boys Network in UK/US/Canadian intelligence that may still exist. If the reasons flying saucers were top secret back in the 1950s are no longer valid reasons for the 2000s, some of these Old Boys may be willing to reminist about this subject and to share some very
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Those Pesky Believers - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:46:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:51:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers - Balaskas >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:12:29 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:32 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Those Pesky Believers >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:23:15 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Those Pesky Believers ><snip> >>>Source: CNN >>>http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/05/06/mars.lander.ap/index.html >>>Friday, May 6, 2005 >>>Mars Lander Wreckage Found >><snip> >>Perhaps as surprising, as stated by Malin on Discovery ca's >>Daily Planet, is the fact that when pushed to do so the Mars >>Global Surveyor can get higher resolution images of a >>specified area on the Mars surface by a factor of three and >>with a reduction in signal to noise by a factor of two. >I have no doubt that they know as much about the surface and >indeed the atmosphere of that planet as they can without >actually having set foot on it. Conclusion? We're being made >mugs of. Hi Don and Stuart! Phoenix Mars Lander, the planned reflight of the Mars Polar Lander mission which is thought to have crash landed on Mars, will be launched in 2007. If Phoenix survives its 10 months long coast to Mars and has a successful landing, we will finally get some real quantitative answers as to the amount of water just beneath the surface of Mars and a better understanding of Martian meteorology thanks largely to researchers such as Allan Carswell, Diane Michelangeli and Peter Taylor (to name a few) from York University in Toronto. It is interesting that Mike Malin of Malin Space Sciences Systems (MSSS), the one that re-imaged the Face on Mars with the still orbiting Mars Global Surveyor, is also on the Phoenix Mars Lander team as an imaging co-investigator. For this reason I can understand why Mike would want to search for and image the Mars Polar Lander to insure that Phoenix Mars Lander does not meet the same fate should it sink in a pond of melted polar ice water
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:10:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:52:24 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - Hello Nick, List, >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:56:55 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >The "history" does indeed have some odd discrepancies. >It's been adapted - without my permission - from an article that >I wrote in the April 2002 issue of UFO Magazine: >http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm >As you can see, large chunks of The National Archives Research >Note 6 (most notably paragraphs 2 - 5) have been taken, >verbatim, from this article. >I make no accusation of plagiarism, because all material on my >website may be freely used, for non-commercial purposes, >provided the source is quoted and it's not taken out of context. <snip> I see from: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 that you have now been duly credited Nick, as has Georgina Bruni. I was unaware that Georgina was also an MoD employee however - is this a new job, or was she working covertly previously? "The working party's conclusions were set out in a document dated June 1951 and bearing the designation DSI/JTIC Report No. 7. It was entitled "Unidentified Flying Objects" and classified "Secret Discreet". The report was located in the MoD archives following a request made under the Code of Practice for Access to Government Information by Dr David Clarke of Sheffield University in 2001. It was also used by Georgina Bruni (MoD) in her research during this period, and made available at the National Archives on 1 January 2002 under reference DEFE 44/119" I didn't spot the "odd discrepancies" which you referred to above, have they now been corrected as well?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 UFO Review Issue 10 From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:29:58 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:55:49 -0400 Subject: UFO Review Issue 10 Issue 10 of UFO Review is available at: http://www.uforeview.net and is available as a free download either as a PDF or as a Word doc. I'm actually not quite sure at this moment of the file sizes but on broadband the PDF took 90 seconds to download and the Word doc took 5 minutes. Select either of the two appropriate buttons at the top left hand side of the screen. Amazingly, this time all the links in the PDF work! And, in this issue we have for you; An interview with Andy Thomas, the most sane sounding man in the UK and possibly the whole world when it comes to crop circles. They're appearing already so we might as well jump in. It is amusing when talking to Andy to note the immense similarities between the crop circle phenomenon and the UFO phenomenon. If you think all crop circles are man made, then read this. The Sandpaper Files - the alternate version of Filers Files. A review of The Phoenix Lights documenatry. The Strange Case of the Fallen Fragments by Nick Redfern. The Mclean case of 1952 - Fact or fiction? Ed Gehrman Interview An excellent, extensive interview with Ed about his discovery of the cameraman=92s crash site which in turn is linked in to the alien autopsy footage. Ed might make you change your mind about one or two things, Time for a revisionist approach, methinks Alien Commercialisation Of Roswell. Excellent piece by Dennis G. Balthaser with amusing accompanying pictures. UFO Recognition Part -- UFO Features By William F. Hamilton. Third and final part of this series of articles This Is The Lake District - but not as you know it! Unmasking The Disruptors in UFO/Conspiracy Research Part 1 by James Bartley and Part 2 by Eve Lorgen. Reader submitted articles. An Interview with Kithra The lady who writes for Review, speaks to Review Dr Roger Leir interview The Story of Varginha. Dig the rant from yours truly at the beginning. An extensive review of a very interesting and yet neglected case. The Quantum Mechanisms of Pyrophosphate (ATP)and Their Postulated Role in the Rise of Life. By Leo J. Baranski, Ph.D. And why not! Well actually because most of you won=92t be able to read it. A "heavy" scientific paper, it purports to show that as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:48:20 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:58:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 >Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >The April 11, 2005 UFO incidents over Mexico city >Mexican researcher and skywatcher Ana Luisa Cid made an >excellent research on the April 11, 2005 UFO fleet incidents >over Mexico city and I would like to post her report as part of >this updated investigation. Our thanks to Ana Luisa for a <snip> Regarding Ana Luisa Cid: for the purpose of general knowledge, can we all have a list of the various video tapes or photographs she has been lucky to take of UFOs? Dates, times and locations would serve to make checks, as it is curious someone takes UFO images so regularly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 How To Crack Weird Space Cases From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:05:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:05:06 -0400 Subject: How To Crack Weird Space Cases Source: MSNBC Interactive http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7822879/ May 12, 2005 How To Crack Weird Space Cases Lone sleuth uses the Internet and his wits to solve UFO mysteries By James Oberg NBC News space analyst Special to MSNBC HOUSTON - When a space station astronaut made an offhand remark about an unusual formation of lights he saw passing in front of him during a spacewalk, the report had all the earmarks of an unsolvable space mystery. But it didn't take long to crack the case, thanks to the power of the Internet and one amateur space sleuth=92s passion to find out. It turned out that the case of the formation-flying lights was only the latest in a string of spooky space effects with perfectly natural explanations. The investigation began when NASA astronaut Leroy Chiao told Aviation Week & Space Technology about "something interesting" he saw during a March 28 spacewalk with Russian crewmate Salizhan Sharipov. "As the sun started rising after the first dark period, I looked out in the opposite direction of the sun and saw a line of five lights," Chiao said. The lights seemed to be flying past fairly quickly "in an echelon formation, except that 'No. 2' was offset," he said. Chiao admitted that he didn't know what the lights were, but he speculated that they might have been a constellation of satellites catching the sun's glint. Or perhaps they were "bright lights from oil platforms actually down on the Earth" that seemed to move due to the space station's own orbital speed. Whatever they were, Chiao was delighted to have seen them. "It just shows you that after spending a lot of time in space and out on EVAs, there are still things that you can see that still surprise you," he mused. Enter the investigator One person who read the story was not surprised, since he had long been fascinated with unusual visual phenomena associated with space missions. James C. Smith, an aerospace engineer in Fairfax, Va., doesn't believe such phenomena are signs of alien visits. What he does believe =97 and what makes his work on this and other cases so impressive =97 is that such mysteries can often be solved, using resources available over the Internet. You just have to know where to look and what to do. Based on Chiao's descriptions, Smith figured out the time and the station's location over Earth when the lights were sighted =97 and deduced that Chiao must have been looking toward the coast of South America, which was still shrouded by night. Smith knew that the place to go for images of bright lights on the night side of Earth was the home page of the Defense Meteorological Satellite Program, a military weather satellite network now closely integrated with the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration. After a day's worth of research, Smith came up with a solution to the mystery. "A little research on the Internet shows that the area has a fleet of squid fishing boats which are the ones that use bright lights to attract the squid," he reported by e-mail. "These unusually bright zones are the result of fleets of fishing vessels using powerful electrical lights at night to attract squid. The fleets regularly show up in images from weather satellites and from space stations." Smith said Chiao was most likely looking at the fishing boats. "Since they are in the middle of a dark area of sea, and he was likely seeing them near the edge of his area of possible viewing, it may have been so dark opposite the sun that determining whether they were on the Earth surface or not may have been difficult," Smith said. "You can see that the lights are apparently brighter than any other lights around there," he concluded. In photographs he obtained of the fleet that night, one light blob is indeed "off line" with a number of others. Viewed in the darkness below the onrushing space station, the lights would rapidly zoom off toward the horizon. Decades' worth of anomalies Reports of space anomalies are almost as old as the space program itself: For instance, John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, reported seeing clouds of "fireflies" outside his window outside his window during the 1962 spaceflight =97 sparkles of light that were later attributed to ice particles coming off his Mercury capsule. Smith himself recently came up with the solution to a three- decade-old mystery, involving a strange image from the Apollo 16 moon mission in 1972: The picture, widely distributed among UFO investigators, showed a disk-shaped structure that was seen in 16mm movie footage shot out the window as the Apollo spacecraft left the moon and headed back toward Earth. None of Apollo 16's astronauts mentioned the disk at the time. Later, one NASA photo technician misidentified the disk as the crescent Earth (it was in the wrong part of the sky), and other space experts speculated that it might be a window reflection of the camera lens itself. But there was no truly satisfactory explanation, and UFO enthusiasts seized upon the picture as evidence that a flying saucer may have been monitoring the moon mission. In 2003, the Journal of Scientific Exploration, a scholarly- sounding publication that focuses on "anomalies and topics outside mainstream science." contained an article about the Apollo 16 disk by Japanese engineer Hiroshi Nakamura. "We believe that the object is a large extraterrestrial artifact. ... This is the only hypothesis that is consistent with the data," Nakamura wrote. Another case cracked Smith=92s interest was piqued, and he began digging into the case. On Sept. 29, 2003, he posted his own findings. "I ordered all possible 16mm film and reviewed them all to locate the above image and to see if any explanation (lens flare, reflection, etc.) could be the cause of the image," he reported. He also searched all NASA online references about the Apollo missions and the Apollo spacecraft mechanical systems, seeking potential correlations between the image and candidate hardware. "Of interest is the more or less horizontal line or bar sticking out part of the UFO," Smith pointed out, noting a feature that was visible in the high-quality film he had received =97 a feature unnoticed by all previous analysts. He then pored over the web pages for any disk-shaped structures mounted on long booms =97 and found one. "The most likely cause of the UFO object is the EVA floodlight," he said. The pole-mounted lamp was set up to illuminate shadowy areas on the Apollo spacecraft, during an unusual spacewalk aimed at retrieving film from a mapping camera. The spacewalk occurred a day after the picture was taken. NASA weighs in Meanwhile, a parallel line of inquiry was being set in motion by Donald Ratsch, a Maryland truck driver and UFO enthusiast. Ratsch was apparently unaware of Smith's conclusions, and on Oct. 27, 2003, he sent a letter to his congressman asking that NASA be required to explain the images. About six months later, he received his reply: NASA had looked at the original flight film, and concluded that the image showed ... the EVA floodlight. Gregory Byrne, a NASA imaging expert at Johnson Space Center in Houston, explained to MSNBC.com that the review was conducted "only because it was requested of us by NASA HQ in response to a congressional inquiry." "I had no choice in the matter," Byrne said, "and reluctantly had to pull image analysis resources away from shuttle return- to-flight to work Apollo 16. It actually turned out to be an interesting diversion from the tedium, and almost like stepping back in time." NASA posted Byrne=92s results on its Web site on April 19, 2004 =97 including an overdeveloped image that showed clear traces of the underilluminated structural elements behind the dish. There was no doubt that Byrne and Smith had independently reached the same conclusion. Byrne didn't comment on how his results matched up with Smith's, but he clearly has no intention of going into competition with the amateur investigator: "We don't plan to make a habit of UFO analysis," Byrne said. Have Internet, will solve UFO cases Smith does not feel competitive about solving strange space cases. "I don't really care if I get credit of not for the whole thing, as long as the truth gets out there," he explained. "I wouldn't make me the subject of the article," he insisted, preferring that the search tools and data available via the Internet were portrayed as the real stars of his investigations. Smith believes that Internet resources have provided a solution to yet another famous UFO case: the "Mexican UFO Fleet" encounter of March 5, 2004. Smith did a video analysis using Landsat and DMSP data, found other images of the apparent source of the mystery lights, and concluded that the UFOs were actually burn-off flares from oil platforms off the Mexican coast. He laid out the evidence last July in Skeptic magazine. Is Smith an incorrigible UFO debunker, interested only in shooting down unusual sightings? Far from it, Smith insists: "I keep looking at this stuff only because I hope that I can someday find something real." But thanks the Internet and his own dogged, insightful investigative techniques, that day hasn=92t yet come. NBC News space analyst James Oberg is a lifelong enthusiast and "sympathetic skeptic" regarding UFO phenomena, and has investigated and solved many pseudo-UFO sightings. He first publicized the Apollo 16 saucer image but was unable to reach the correct explanation that Smith found.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:11:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:27:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Goldstein >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>>>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >>I worked closely with Bill Moore for several years. He has his >>faults as do we all. I would take his word any time over that of >>Michael Salla's so called whistleblowers such as Lazar, Wolf, >>Milton William Cooper etc. Fabulist is a good word. >Aloha Stan, this is not a matter of comparing different sources >and comparing them to one another. in terms of whose word is >more trustworthy. It's looking at the context in which these >individuals made claims, participated in investigations, etc., >that competent researchers try to make sense of. Bill Moore >voluntarily chose to play a role in disseminating rumors that >Bennewitz had been fed disinformation with the purpose of >ultimately discrediting Paul Bennewitz. That was poor judgement >and certainly something that rightly did not endear him to many >researchers. I think those wanting to defend Moore wrongly >assume that Moore's poor judgement is mitigated because he >warned Bennewitz that the information from AFOSI was >disinformation. That is mistaken. Moore played a key role in >spreading rumors that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation and >this was the basis of Bennewitz's extravagent claims regarding >ET bases and captive humans. So Moore continued to play a role >in discrediting Bennewitz even at the 1989 MUFON conference when >he came clean. He was used by AFOSI to do this and became a fly >in the AFOSI trap. >As for Lazar and Wolf, both allegedly worked at S4 and made >claims that have been investigated by competent researchers who >disagree over the conclusions. We've already debated Lazar and >I'm sure will soon do the same regarding Wolf. Cooper has his >Navy background which he claimed gave him access to classified >documents with information on UFOs/ETs due to the security >classification he needed for his position on the briefing team >for the Commander of the Pacific Fleet. Cooper openly supplied >his service record to validate his background, and while his >testimony over the years has changed, it's his military >background that can't be ignored, and gives him some >credibility. Trying to compare these individuals in terms of >disseminating nonsense. You are asserting your methodological >bias as the benchmark standard for whistleblower or witness >credibility. Sensible people can disagree over methodology and >reach divergent opinions in particular cases. Claiming someone >is disseminating 'nonsense' or that a researcher is 'blind' >because they accept in whole or part the testimony of a >whistleblower or witness is a useful rhetorical method but >really doesn't address the inherent research difficulties in >this field. You for example accept that the government 'lies', >but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw >public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of >discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. Are you being >sensible or naive here? Am I being gullible in accepting claims >that the 'secret' government does indeed resort to these tactics >to discredit individuals? We can debate all day but resorting to >dismissive labels such as nonsense, blind, etc., doesn't help >anyone or answer these basic questions. <snip> Aloha Dr. Salla, You are relying on proven liars and frauds for "whistleblowers". I want to inform you that when the Bennewitz story first started to come out, I and other researchers went to Dulce Canyon, interviewed Gabe Valdez, and physically searched Dulce Canyon. Other researchers continually combed that area for several years afterward. No underground facilities were ever found. I don't believe there has ever been any truth to an underground facility (let alone a mythical alien/military laboratory) existing at Dulce. Dr. Salla, you seem to be someone who listens but does not hear or understand anything told to you except wild unproven tales. You are living in fantasy land and your reputation in the UFO field is as low as that of your phony "whistleblowers". You are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Filer From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:19:21 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:32:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Filer >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:27 -0400 >>Subject: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >>Filer's Files #20 - 2005, >>Skywatch Investigations >>George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >>Vice President of Skywatch International >>May 11, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com >Notice that in both photos the "UFO" seems to be at about the >same elevation above the lunar horizon. From the shadows of both >astronauts, the "UFO" is exactly between them and the Sun. Since >the same type of camera was used on the surface of the Moon for >Apollo 15 and 16, your unexplained large light is now explained. >It is a camera created optical reflection artifact or image and >not a real object. This is further supported by the many other >lunar still pictures, some of which are also included in the >same UFO Case Book web site. These other "UFOs" appears only in >photos taken with approximately the same Sun angle. >The astronauts did not make any references to or comments about >their alleged encounters with UFOs on the Moon during their >encounters with the alleged "UFOs" while on the Moon or when >they were debriefed back on Earth. Since these "UFOs" are absent >in the live moving images that were seen by all here on Earth >which were taken with a different camera and Sun angles, to me >this is further evidence that these "UFOs" are really optical >reflections. >As for the picture of the Apollo 14 "UFO", I agree with you that >this saucer shaped image it is very likely a reflection off the >spacecraft window of something inside the darkened Apollo 14 >Command Module. Apollo 8 and 13 astronaut Jim Lovell once told >us of how one less experienced fellow astronaut was shocked to >see such a similar UFO after waking up from sleep. It turned out >to be the luminous dial of a watch on his arm floating in front >of his face inside the darkened Command module! Dear Nick, I asked Edgar Mitchell in private if he had seen a UFO on the Moon. He answered, "Many of my fellow astronauts told me they had seen them, and I believe them." He then stated, "I would study the Dead Sea Scrolls because they contain the answers. These photos may or may not show UFOs, and the best photos are not revealed to the public. Another friend watched at NASA while they air brushed out the UFOs. It is my opinion they exist, and I attempt to show the best evidence. I'm well aware some may be caused by more mundane reasons. I also know as fact that rooms full of UFO photos and data are being withheld from the public because I was denied access by my boss, four star General Catton. Although I briefed him everyday on intelligence, it was felt I did not have a need to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Radar UFOs Over DC Area? From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:35:03 -0400 Subject: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? The Washington Post, on May 12, published a short list of "incursions" over the DC area. This was part of a much l;onger story on the pilot who nearly got x'd out by an F-16 as the plane headed toward the White House. "RECENT AIRCRAFT WARNINGS - from January 2003 to July 2004 more than 2,000 radar "tracks of interest" were detected over Washington airspace leading to 350 scrambles of customs aircraft based at Reagan National Airport, according to the Department of Homeland Security." You will recall the sighting of a blue light in conjunction with a scramble almost two (?) years ago (discussed on Ufo UpDates). No doubt, this one is included in the statistics. The newspaper also lists several examples including planes that approached on Jun 9, 2004, Nov 10, 2003 and Jun 19, 2002. However the most ufologicially interesting example is this: "April 27, 2005: President Bush is taken to a White House bunker and Vice President Cheney is evacuated from the executive complex when an unidentified radar target approaches to within seven miles of Reagan National Airport. Authorities conclude that the radar blip was caused by clouds or a weather anomaly." Would be interesting to know the actual technical data on this "radar blip": duration, distance traveled, speed, direction, date, time, etc. The way it first was detected and the manner in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:46:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:09:15 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:29:55 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:44:11 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:20 EDT >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:27:40 +0100 >>>>Subject: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >The big media campaign in 1950 did bring out what was until then >top secret multinational investigations into flying saucers by >Britian, the U.S. and Canada. These investigations can be traced >back to 1947 and the ghost rockets of 1946 seen over much of >Europe (and possibly further back to the alleged UFO crashes and >recoveries of wreckage in Italy, Germany and other countries >prior to WWII). Hi Nick, In Britain, a more recent memory than that of the Scandinavian ghost rockets was the "ghost aeroplanes" of Operation Charlie that caused some excitement in January 1947. This was on home soil. See: http://www.project1947.com/1947/opcharlie.html There is concrete evidence of information sharing with the US in this case. Ruppelt mentioned these incidents and claimed they were cited in the Estimate of the Situation. But I'm not aware of any evidence that intelligence sharing was very active prior to a telex dated 8 August that year from the British Air Ministry evidently in response to a query from the US Army Air Force. This suggests (but doesn't prove) that cooperation with the UK was an ad hoc sort of affair within ordinary intelligence channels when Sign was conceived. I don't see evidence that "top secret multinational investigations into flying saucers" cannot be traced back to the ghost rockets. >Doing a Google search using "Tizard" and "DRB" (Canada's Defense >Research Board which had an involvement in the investigations of >flying saucers under its chairman, Dr. Omand M. Solandt) I found >a paper by J.L.C. Carrier which shows that in addition to >Britain and the U.S., Canada too was in the loop in regards to >UFO matters from 1947 onwards. Carrier's thesis doesn't demonstrate anything about UFO matters. The topic is not mentioned; it is about the effect of defence R&D expenditure on the Canadian economy. The Joint UKUSA intelligence treaty arrangements are well known and the fact that Tizard was a big international player in these affairs is not a secret. A top secret multinational investigation into flying saucers may have developed by 1950, but if so the Flying Saucer Working Party report in the UK is not evidence of it. You only have to read the introductory material which defers naively to the headline conclusions of Grudge to realise that this is far too unsophisticated to be a product of a top secret multinational research effort. If such an effort existed at this time you have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 Heavens Above! It's A UFO! From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:27:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:27:44 -0400 Subject: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! Source: Denbighshire Free Press - North Wales, U.K. http://tinyurl.com/bl9jc May 13th 2005 Heavens Above! It's A UFO! Alien beings... or a rational explanation? A householder has called on UFO experts to help him seek the truth after catching on video mysterious objects hovering in the night sky over his property for the last five weeks. John White, of Llannefydd, has spent more than nine hours capturing mysterious sphere-shaped objects on video after seeing them for the first time at night in mid-March. Since his first sighting, the objects have continued to appear and the 60-year-old store manager has bought new equipment to capture the UFOs after claiming his old camera could have been damaged by taking shots of the mystery lights. Denbigh and the surrounding area is no stranger to UFO activity as Ufologists have reported a number of sightings in the sky over the years, including those over Denbigh Moors and over the land surrounding the North Wales Hospital. John says he is determined to get as much evidence as possible to seek out the truth on the mystery objects which he has been logging in the night sky since since March. The objects change colour from red, blue, purple, green to dashes of bright white. John added: "It's a sphere and it pulses lights off it ... if you can imagine a kaleidoscope, it's like that. I don't know what they are. I see them most nights when there's no clouds, you get a break in the clouds and you can see them. One night I spotted 13." The MOD has been informed of the mystery visitors to the skies of Llannefydd but has yet to come up with an explanation. "When I first saw them on a Friday night I called Colwyn Bay police and they gave me a phone number for the Ministry of Defence," John said. An RAF member who called up a radar screen, failed to identify
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 13 'UFO' Lands In Virginia Back Yard From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:33:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:33:57 -0400 Subject: 'UFO' Lands In Virginia Back Yard Source: WFMY-TV News 2 Greensboro, North Carolina http://tinyurl.com/chxdu May 12th, 2005 'UFO' Lands In Virginia Back Yard [Picture] Officers from six different agencies responded to a call about a device with a parachute that landed in Henry County. Martinsville, VA -- It was a busy afternoon for safety officials in Henry County. Officers from six different agencies responded to a call in Henry County about a "suspicious object" falling from the sky into a residential back yard. The UFO, described as a small, orange-colored parachute attached to an electronics device, first hit the roof of a home on Augusta Street before coming to rest on the ground. The homeowner, concerned that the object might be an explosive device, contacted police. Once officers from the Henry County Sheriff's Office, Martinsville Police Department, Virginia State Police, Henry County Department of Public Safety, Dyer Store Volunteer Fire Department and The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms arrived, the object didn't stay unidentified for long. Authorities at the scene were able to determine the item was a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:15:21 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:21:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - >From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:48:20 +0200 (CEST) >Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 >>Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >>The April 11, 2005 UFO incidents over Mexico city >>Mexican researcher and skywatcher Ana Luisa Cid made an >>excellent research on the April 11, 2005 UFO fleet incidents >>over Mexico city and I would like to post her report as part of >>this updated investigation. Our thanks to Ana Luisa for a ><snip> >Regarding Ana Luisa Cid: for the purpose of general knowledge, >can we all have a list of the various video tapes or photographs >she has been lucky to take of UFOs? Dates, times and locations >would serve to make checks, as it is curious someone takes UFO >images so regularly. Dear Vicente: I assume that you can read Portuguese. In this case, you can read the articles on the Brazilian UFO Magazine website: www.ufo.com.br/exclusivo/mexico Where most videos are published and can be downloaded in two
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Secrecy News -- 05/13/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:47:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:24:01 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/13/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 46 May 13, 2005 ** UK MEMO REVIVES QUESTIONS ABOUT IRAQ WAR ** WAXMAN INTRODUCES RESTORE OPEN GOVERNMENT ACT ** DISCLOSURE OF GRAND JURY INFO TO INTEL AGENCIES ** A CLUTCH OF CRS REPORTS UK MEMO REVIVES QUESTIONS ABOUT IRAQ WAR Long before the war against Iraq commenced, the Bush Administration had decided to remove Saddam Hussein from power by force, and a case for war was contrived to support that objective, according to minutes of a July 2002 British government meeting that were published earlier this month. "Military action was now seen as inevitable," the meeting minutes stated. "Intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." In a May 5 letter, 89 House Democrats pressed the White House to explain the contents of the British memo. "If the disclosure is accurate," they wrote to President Bush, "it raises troubling new questions about the legal justifications for the war as well as the integrity of your Administration." See: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/dem050505.pdf The memo itself, obtained by Michael Smith of the London Sunday Times, is available here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html Coverage of the matter has been sparse in the U.S. The Los Angeles Times reported on it yesterday, more than a week after the story broke in the UK on May 1, and the Washington Post followed today. WAXMAN INTRODUCES RESTORE OPEN GOVERNMENT ACT Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) introduced legislation this week that would reverse some of the restrictions on public disclosure of government information that have been imposed in recent years. The new bill would restore the pre-Ashcroft Freedom of Information Act policy directing agencies to release requested information unless there is some finding of harm; it would repeal the executive order that limited public access to past presidential records; it would prohibit secret advisory committees such as the Vice President's energy task force that meet with industry groups behind closed doors; and more. Under the present House Republican leadership, Democrats are not permitted to contribute meaningfully to the legislative process. Their bills are not scheduled for hearings or allowed to come to the House floor for a vote. It is therefore unlikely that Rep. Waxman's bill will become law in the near term. But it may nevertheless serve as a useful reminder of an alternative vision of American government, and as a trail of bread crumbs that could one day lead us back the way we came. A news release and summary of the bill's provision may be found here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/05/waxman051105.pdf DISCLOSURE OF GRAND JURY INFO TO INTEL AGENCIES The USA Patriot Act (section 203) directed the Attorney General to establish procedures for providing intelligence agencies with law enforcement information obtained in grand jury investigations and electronic intercepts. Those procedures were disclosed last month. In response to a question for the record from Sen. Dianne Feinstein, the Department of Justice on April 1 released a September 23, 2002 Memorandum from Attorney General Ashcroft on "Guidelines for Disclosure of Grand Jury and Electronic, Wire, and Oral Interception Information Identifying United States Persons." See (beginning with question 84): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/ag203guidelines.pdf The guidelines were included in a newly published hearing volume on "FBI Oversight," Senate Judiciary Committee, May 20, 2004. The full volume may be found here (9.2 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_hr/052004transcript.pdf A CLUTCH OF CRS REPORTS The Congressional Research Service, at the direction of the current congressional leadership, does not authorize direct public access to its reports. CRS reports that were recently obtained by Secrecy News without authorization include the following. "Iraq's New Security Forces: The Challenge of Sectarian and Ethnic Influences," March 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22093.pdf "Iraq: Frequently Asked Questions About Contracting," updated March 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32229.pdf "Iraq: Oil for Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade," updated March 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL30472.pdf "Taiwan: Major U.S. Arms Sales Since 1990," updated March 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30957.pdf "Lawsuits Against State Supporters of Terrorism: An Overview," March 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RS22094.pdf "Nomination and Confirmation of the FBI Director: Process and Recent History," updated March 17, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS20963.pdf "U.S. Military Dispositions: Fact Sheet," updated March 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS20649.pdf "Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board: 109th Congress Proposed Refinements," March 11, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS22078.pdf "Balkan Cooperation on War Crimes Issues: 2005 Update," March 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22097.pdf "Organization of American States: A Primer," March 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22095.pdf "Science and Technology Policy: Issues for the 109th Congress," March 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32837.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:29:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:21:34 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>>>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >>I worked closely with Bill Moore for several years. He has his >>faults as do we all. I would take his word any time over that of >>Michael Salla's so called whistleblowers such as Lazar, Wolf, >>Milton William Cooper etc. Fabulist is a good word. >Aloha Stan, this is not a matter of comparing different sources >and comparing them to one another. in terms of whose word is >more trustworthy. It's looking at the context in which these >individuals made claims, participated in investigations, etc., >that competent researchers try to make sense of. Bill Moore >voluntarily chose to play a role in disseminating rumors that >Bennewitz had been fed disinformation with the purpose of >ultimately discrediting Paul Bennewitz. That was poor judgement >and certainly something that rightly did not endear him to many >researchers. I think those wanting to defend Moore wrongly >assume that Moore's poor judgement is mitigated because he >warned Bennewitz that the information from AFOSI was >disinformation. That is mistaken. Moore played a key role in >spreading rumors that Bennewitz had been fed disinformation and >this was the basis of Bennewitz's extravagent claims regarding >ET bases and captive humans. So Moore continued to play a role >in discrediting Bennewitz even at the 1989 MUFON conference when >he came clean. He was used by AFOSI to do this and became a fly >in the AFOSI trap. >As for Lazar and Wolf, both allegedly worked at S4 and made >claims that have been investigated by competent researchers who >disagree over the conclusions. We've already debated Lazar and >I'm sure will soon do the same regarding Wolf. Cooper has his >Navy background which he claimed gave him access to classified >documents with information on UFOs/ETs due to the security >classification he needed for his position on the briefing team >for the Commander of the Pacific Fleet. Cooper openly supplied >his service record to validate his background, and while his >testimony over the years has changed, it's his military >background that can't be ignored, and gives him some >credibility. Trying to compare these individuals in terms of >whose word can be trusted is like comparing apples and oranges. >>Michael Salla, I have trouble believing much of what you say because >>you have so blindly accepted nonsense from these guys. I am sure >>that the government is laughing it's head off at seeing you do >>so much well written disinformation... perhaps misinformation >>would be better. Sure the government has lied.They can at least >>hide behind national security. But what excuse can Lazar, Wolf >>et al provide? >Stanton, who defines 'nonsense' here? Just because someone >doesn't supply sufficient hard evidence or supporting documents >to meet your stringent standards doesn't mean they are >disseminating nonsense. You are asserting your methodological >bias as the benchmark standard for whistleblower or witness >credibility. Sensible people can disagree over methodology and >reach divergent opinions in particular cases. Claiming someone >is disseminating 'nonsense' or that a researcher is 'blind' >because they accept in whole or part the testimony of a >whistleblower or witness is a useful rhetorical method but >really doesn't address the inherent research difficulties in >this field. You for example accept that the government 'lies', >but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw >public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of >discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. Are you being >sensible or naive here? Am I being gullible in accepting claims >that the 'secret' government does indeed resort to these tactics >to discredit individuals? We can debate all day but resorting to >dismissive labels such as nonsense, blind, etc., doesn't help >anyone or answer these basic questions. Yes, the 'government' >lies, but does the government remove, alter or destroy evidence >to make one out to be a liar? Michael, I use the word "Nonsense" advisedly. Michael Wolf attended Upsala, but did not finish. That is it. According to his brother and three old friends, he never completed any college program, did spend time in a mental hospital for which his mother was asking her divorced husband for more support. He was never in the military was not a Colonel pilot, was not close to the Clintons, etc. The claim from him and him alone supported by nothing is that he had 6 degrees including an MD from McGill, PhDs in theoretical Physics from MIT and Cal Tech, a law degree from Georgetown and 2 more degrees. Not one shred of evidence has been presented.No diplomas, no listings. These claims are _nonsense_. Bob Lazar did take at least one class at Pierce Junior College near LA under physics Prof. William Duxler. He claimed Duxler taught Physics at Cal Tech. NOT TRUE... only at Pierce. No one has provided any evidence that he has received any degrees from anywhere. He did not work for Los Alamos. He worked for Kirk Meyer. He received his high school diploma on Long Island in August having taken one science course, chemistry. His educational and professional claims are _nonsense_, not even an advisor for his MS thesis.I have noted the many checks I have done with many offices at MIT etc Bob's physics claims are more double-talk. Yes, 4 atoms of element 115 have been created in a period of a month at a huge accelerator. The half life is too short for anybody to collect 500 pounds as Bob has alleged.I have noted many more, you should pardon the expression, facts Michael, I gather you will believe what you want to believe, but you are certainly undermining the efforts of legitimate Whistleblowers by promoting _nonsense_. Please provide any evidence, soft, hard, or medium, that these _nonsensical_claims_ are legitimate. >>You want to believe that Corso was on the National Security >>Council. If you do any checking (I know, not your style) you will >>find that the NSC's membership is determined by Statute. He had >>none of the positions that would have permitted him to be named >>a member.Do you have any reason to claim that the Eisenhower >>Library was lying when they said he was not a member and did not >>attend any meetings? A referral letter about him makes clear he >>was a liaison man... not a member. I have copies. Archivists >>aren't perfect, but I surely have far more reason to believe them >>than your so called whistleblowers. I know you disdain hard >>evidence. How about presenting soft evidence if you want the >>world to believe these claims?. >I'm surprised you bring this up. Here is what the bio on the >back jacket of Corso's book says: "Colonel Philip J. Corso USA >(Ret) was a key Army intelligence officer who served on General >MacArthur's staff in Korea and later in Dwight D. Eisenhower's >National Security Council as a lietanent colonel." Corso did not >claim and could not possibly have been a member of the NSC which >comprises the heads of different government agencies and >departments as you well know. Why do you ascribe to Corso >something that he never claimed? Anyone with any experience >regarding the operations of the NSC would know that each member >of the NSC has a staff comprising career professionals and >military officers such as Lt Col Corso who would not necessarily >attend actual NSC meetings but would be there to assist the NSC >member s/he is assigned to or to assist in the operations of the >NSC as a whole. That's the nature of staff support and Corso's >position as a 'liaison man' meant that he had to be aware of >what was happening at the meetings to report back to his >superiors, without necessarily being present. It's worth >pointing out that the operational procedure and attendence of >NSC meetings is classified information so we will not the full >story on who attended meetings and what was discussed. Corso made a sworn statement to attorney Peter Gersten that he had been a member of the NSC. He refused to withdraw it when Peter showed him the letter from the Eisenhower Library. Incidentally, many of the minutes and lists of attendees at a host of NSC meetings are not any longer classified. Liaison people like Corso were concerned with particular areas not all NSC activities and did not even have a need to know for what other people were concerned with..... >As for the Eisenhower library having no record of Corso >attending NSC meetings or being a member of the NSC, you asked >them the wrong questions. As a staff member, Corso did not have >to be necessarily present at NSC meetings to fulfill his >functions, nor was he a member of the NSC as we know. If you >asked the Eisenhower adminstration if Corso was a member, then >of course the answer would be no. That was an elementary mistake >on your part. So what's your point here about the Eisenhower >administration lying? You should have asked the Eishenhower >library whether the list of staff members assigned to President >Eisenhower NSC is classified information, and whether the >attendence at NSC meetings in terms of staff representatives is >also classified information. In both cases, the answer would >most likely have been 'yes' which explains the answers you got. >FOIA would not help you get the attendence of NSC meetings since >it's not covered under FOIA so there would be no way of you >getting such information unless it was declassified. It's not >mine or Corso's problem if you asked the wrong questions and >didn't get the validation you were seeking. Michael, here you go with more nonsense. My requests were NOT FOIA requests. There is a huge amount of declassified NSC info. I didn't ask if he had attended NSC meetings. They checked and told me "We have not located any evidence that he ever attended an actual NSC meeting" and sent me some letters from his superiors. You want to make him an important cog in the NSC wheel . He was not >>In peace >>Michael Salla I am glad to see you have done some homework on the NSC. I have no idea where your claims about what is, or isn't, classified and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:19:55 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:32:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:11:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >Aloha Dr. Salla, >You are relying on proven liars and frauds for "whistleblowers". Ok, so if I and others disagree with you what then? I've repeatedly come up with a number of reasons why we should seriously consider whistleblower testimonies. I've argued why whistleblowers such as Lazar, Clifford Stone, Phil Corso, etc., should be seriously considered. You disagree, that's fine. I respect your right to disagree but I will continue to argue that you are wrong, and that UFO researchers who dismiss whistleblower testimonies concerning ETV's and EBE's are ignoring valuable evidence. As for the idea of 'proven liars and frauds'. Who sets the criteria for assessing whistleblower testimonies and making these conclusions? I haven't seen anything but a bunch of ad hoc dismissals based on little more than the refrain of 'where's the hard evidence'? That's the wrong question. It should be, "has the hard evidence been tampered with, withdrawn, etc." >I want to inform you that when the Bennewitz story first started >to come out, I and other researchers went to Dulce Canyon, >interviewed Gabe Valdez, and physically searched Dulce Canyon. >Other researchers continually combed that area for several years >afterward. No underground facilities were ever found. I don't >believe there has ever been any truth to an underground facility >(let alone a mythical alien/military laboratory) existing at >Dulce. I know other researchers who have reached different conclusions. For example, Norio Harakaya visited Dulce with a Japanese film production crew in 1990 and concluded: I've been to Dulce with the Nippon Television Network crew and interviewed many, many people over there and came back with the firm conviction that something was happening around 10 to 15 years ago over there, including nightly sightings of strange lights and appearances of military jeeps and trucks. Regardless of the conclusions of different research teams about Dulce, whistleblower testimonies about Dulce are primary sources that should not have been ignored by someone conducting a thorough study on Bennewitz and Dulce. That's why I believe Bishop's book is flawed. >Dr. Salla, you seem to be someone who listens but does not hear >or understand anything told to you except wild unproven tales. I'm listening to you and don't think you are a fool for believing that hard evidence is necessary before we form any conclusions about whistleblower allegations concerning ETVs, EBEs, etc. It's just that you are using inappropriate criteria for assessing testimonies concerning military/corporate projects that are highly classified. The 'secret government' responsible for ET related projects does regularly threaten and discredit witnesses, whistleblowers, etc., and removes, alters hard evidence, documentation, etc. These factors contextualize UFO research and those who ignore this have not thought through how the national security system has been set up to deal with UFOs/ETs. We need to use whistleblower testimonies to understand what's going on in the black world of classified projects, and move away from generally dismissive statements such as liar, fraud if 'hard evidence' does not pass a certain threshold as in the case of Bob Lazar. >You are living in fantasy land and your reputation in the UFO >field is as low as that of your phony "whistleblowers". You are >going nowhere with your misguided efforts. I am glad we live on >separate islands of Hawaii. I can say the same about you living in a fantasy land for believing that a strict adherence to hard evidence will yield the Rosetta stone to what is happening in the classified world concering UFOs/ETs. You have to enter the allegorical dark tunnel with your flashlight of discernment to discover what's happening in the classified world. If you aren't up to the task, then step aside and stop hindering those prepared to do so. I would be glad to meet you if we ever run into each other on Hawaii. You strike me as quite sincere in your quest for truth about UFOs/ETs. Are you coming to the Dolphin and ET Civilizations conference this June? Here's the website: http://www.etfriends.com/conference/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Mutilated Animal Found Near Colonia Margarita From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:35:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:36:37 -0400 Subject: Mutilated Animal Found Near Colonia Margarita INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology Friday, May 12, 2005 Source: La Opinion - Rafaela, Santa Fe, Argentina Source: http://www.laopinion-rafaela.com.ar/ Date: May 11, 2005 Argentina: Mutilated Animal Found Near Colonia Margarita With regard to the news made known in yesterday's issue of La Opinion, involving a dead heifer found in the Colonia Margarita region, reminiscent of the cattle mutilations that claimed hundreds of animals two years ago, a local veterinarian dismissed the event. In his own words, "there is nothing abnormal about these deaths, nor in the incisions that represent a perfect surgery performed with a scalpel." In yesterday's issue, thanks to information received by La Opinion from Domingo Abel Bongianino, its correspondent in Ataliva, we reported on the mysterious death of an unweaned heifer in the northeastern section of the Humberto Primo district, known as Colonia Margarita. The location of the events was also the subject of telephone calls to this newspaper, stating that Colonia Margarita is in fact a community located to the south of the Castellanos department, between the districts of Maria Juana and San Vicente. This was the cause of confusion among some readers, since there is a sector of the northern region of Humberto Primo that shares the same name, Colonia Margarita. The story made known by La Opinion reached the whole country yesterday, when the most important news media (radio, press and television) repeated the event in a special way, recalling the events of two years ago when hundreds of animals turned up dead, missing some organs which appeared to have been excised with perfect skill. All of this caused veterinarian Omar Bossio of the community of Presidente Roca to get in touch with this newspaper to give his own version of the mutilations based on his 20 years of professional experience. "When those animal deaths occurred two years ago, I toured the fields and they were all that way. And it's what one continues to see every day." Aside from offering a video to corroborate his statements, the expert added: "what is initially missing from these animals are the fleshiest parts, such as their tongue, jaws, anus and eyes. In other words, predators feeding off the animal can eat up to where the bone starts. At night one can observe this carrion- eating action by foxes and wild dogs, among others." Upon eating these parts, "the skin contracts and becomes harder. Then it dries out and the circle appears [giving the impression] of having been made with a scalpel. But none of this is real. It is only the behavior of the skin when the flesh is missing," Bossio added. With regard to the carrion birds in the area, the best known is the carancho. The Roca veterinarian insisted that "such a carrion bird would never eat the eyelids off a dead animal - it would pull out the eyes completely." The veterinarian supports his affirmations saying: "I personally perform 300 necropsies a year. In other words, I see these deaths practically every day. Unfortunately, these events become magnified and the only thing that happens is that the guys who live in countryside and have to do farmwork become very fearful." As stated in yesterday's edition, the witnesses to this last event were eight people, all of them knowledgeable about this rural phenomenon, born and raised in the country. One would therefore suppose that they would be accustomed to such events, yet it struck them as odd. One of them even told La Opinion that he 'had never seen a similar event in all his life living in the country." In this regard, Bossio does not contradict these statements, replying that "everyone can speak their peace, but I invite them to tour the fields. Out of 20 dead animals, at least 18 are in the same condition" due to the causes he has already indicated. The official technical explanations for similar events occurring years ago placed the blame on the "Red-Muzzled Mouse". This prompted the veterinarian to say that yes, "it is true that mice feed off the flesh and the fields are full of these rodents. Surely this species would have appeared when those animal deaths were being filmed." He repeated his invitation to watch a video he himself had shot "showing these animals being eaten by caranchos. Even the parts being eaten can be seen." Among his recollections is "the dead horse from Vila, which I videotaped and shows nothing noteworthy. Maybe the common people [may be surprised] but to someone with 20 years' experience in the subject, there's nothing paranormal about it." Regarding the death of the young heifer, a possible cause could be found in "its castration. It is very possible that its death was due to hemorrhaging." To reaffirm his statements, Omar Bossion informed that "only a few days ago, the owner of a field and myself observed a dead animal with the same characteristics that gave rise to the news item, and I joked with my companion that the Chupacabras had been on the prowl. In other words, seeing dead animals that present these mutilations is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:36:39 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:38:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting - >From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:48:20 +0200 (CEST) >Subject: Re: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:53:53 +0000 >>Subject: Confirmation April 11 UFO Fleet Sighting >>The April 11, 2005 UFO incidents over Mexico city >>Mexican researcher and skywatcher Ana Luisa Cid made an >>excellent research on the April 11, 2005 UFO fleet incidents >>over Mexico city and I would like to post her report as part of >>this updated investigation. Our thanks to Ana Luisa for a <snip> >Regarding Ana Luisa Cid: for the purpose of general knowledge, >can we all have a list of the various video tapes or photographs >she has been lucky to take of UFOs? Dates, times and locations >would serve to make checks, as it is curious someone takes UFO >images so regularly. I can tell without any reserve that it's not curious at all. This unique and strange ability or perception or whatever you may call it to detect UFOs has been manifestating in certain people called skywatchers, experiencers etc. for many years in the ufologic field. There are hundreds of cases of these privileged persons all over the world who are reporting their sightings in a continuous basis and thanks to the camcorder videocamera invention in recent times they have the useful tools to document their sightings on tape as an evidence. In Mexico we call these persons The Vigilantes and since 1991 they have constituted themselves the main pillar of the mexican UFO research providing such an impressive amount of videos and photos aside their testimonials and accounts that our database is actually the world's largest UFO evidences archive. We have what we consider the "Elite" of our Vigilantes, persons like Ana Luisa Cid, Salvador Guerrero, Javier Guevara, Demetrio Feria, Amado Marquez, Pedro Avila and many others. Each one of this distinguished Vigilantes have many hours of UFO evidences on tape collected through years of a dedicated skywatch and their participation has been a valious contribution to the mexican Ufology. There are also many persons all over the world who just as the Vigilantes has been distinguished by their frequent sightings reports with evidences on video, many of them are very well known in the ufologic community and their special ability or perception continues amazing us. There's has been always questioned these special persons named experiencers, skywatchers, Vigilantes or simply UFO witnesses due to their continuous encounters and experiences with UFOs as these accounts defy logic and may seem dificult to accept but is'nt the UFO phenomena itself who defies logic ? Is'nt these unique accounts of extraordinary events the ones that challenge our common sense ? And despite all metodologies and knowledges aquired all these UFO events have been repeating themselves for many decades involving a massive amount of human beings whom have provided an undeniable evidence database. What have we learned from these people and their evidences ? I belive these persons have been and are fortunated ones who have witnessed and are experiencing the real thing regarding this debated phenomena and they have the evidences to prove their stories, the more the best. Ana Luisa Cid is a remarkable Vigilante/skywatcher/experiencer who's also an important researcher and her evidence accounts are certainly numerous. I think it will be better that Ana Luisa herself may give youthe information you request.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:06:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:43:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! - Shough >Source: Denbighshire Free Press - North Wales, U.K. <snip> >John says he is determined to get as much evidence as possible >to seek out the truth on the mystery objects which he has been >logging in the night sky since since March. >The objects change colour from red, blue, purple, green to >dashes of bright white. >John added: "It's a sphere and it pulses lights off it ... if >you can imagine a kaleidoscope, it's like that. I don't know >what they are. I see them most nights when there's no clouds, >you get a break in the clouds and you can see them. One night I >spotted 13." Oh my! Some people can reach a remarkable age before noticing the night sky for the first time. >The MOD has been informed of the mystery visitors to the skies >of Llannefydd but has yet to come up with an explanation. >"When I first saw them on a Friday night I called Colwyn Bay >police and they gave me a phone number for the Ministry of >Defence," John said. >An RAF member who called up a radar screen, failed to identify >the flying object gracing his monitor, he added. Hmm... a pound to a penny there was nothing on his monitor, graceful or otherwise. >John's last encounter with the mysterious objects came on Sunday >evening. >"You will have to see it to believe it," he said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:23:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:01:45 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:10:28 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:56:55 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>The "history" does indeed have some odd discrepancies. >>It's been adapted - without my permission - from an article that >>I wrote in the April 2002 issue of UFO Magazine: >>http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm >>As you can see, large chunks of The National Archives Research >>Note 6 (most notably paragraphs 2 - 5) have been taken, >>verbatim, from this article. >>I make no accusation of plagiarism, because all material on my >>website may be freely used, for non-commercial purposes, >>provided the source is quoted and it's not taken out of context. >I see from: >http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 >that you have now been duly credited Nick, as has Georgina >Bruni. I was unaware that Georgina was also an MoD employee >however - is this a new job, or was she working covertly >previously? Although Georgina Bruni has done some previous work for the MOD's Protocol Office and has organised events for Armed Forces charities, she is not, and has never been, an employee of the MOD. I contacted The National Archives about this yesterday and spoke to the appropriate point of contact today. The material has been duly amended, though this will not take effect until next Thursday, when their website is next updated. <snip> >I didn't spot the "odd discrepancies" which you referred to >above, have they now been corrected as well? No. My point was simply that by taking only some of the material from the Official History article, the picture painted of the Ministry of Defence's early involvement with the UFO mystery was incomplete. The full Official History article can be accessed at the following hyperlink, though it is also widely available on various UFO-related websites: http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm Although less well known, there is a second part to the Official History article. Part 2 addresses various questions raised by ufologists and can be accessed at the following hyperlink: http://www.nickpope.net/official_history_pt_2.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Google Maps Captures UFO? From: Scott Ribordy <sdr916.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:21:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:04:59 -0400 Subject: Google Maps Captures UFO? The list might be interested in the following discussion of some unusual pictures available through the Google Maps page. http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/12/ufo/ The images in question show a round silver sphere in the middle of the satellite images.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:16:17 -0400 Subject: Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre by Mac Tonnies http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com Why don't aliens make open contact? Why do they seem content with taunting our aircraft and haunting lonely night roads? Why the elusiveness that's characterized the UFO phenomenon since the modern era of sightings began in the late 1940s? There are a multitude of reasons a visiting civilization would refrain from 'landing on the White House lawn', foremost among them the potentially debilitating effect open contact might wreak on terrestrials. History shows that relatively advanced sea-faring cultures topple less developed cultures, in part by collapsing defining assumptions and rendering cultural self-hood obsolete. If we're of any research value to a visiting civilization then interfering at the macro-sociological level might threaten to destroy thousands of years of patient work. The paradox is that UFOs do exhibit an interest in our activities. But it's a cryptic, behind-the-scenes sort of interest: clandestine-seeming at first take but, on closer inspection, almost alarmingly conspicuous, like a silent plea for attention. One idea to account for this behavior is that the UFO intelligence somehow hinges on our belief in it (a notion that assumes an esoteric origin instead of the more common 'nuts and bolts' extraterrestrial hypothesis). In this scenario, the UFOs are engaged in an elaborate act of psychic propaganda, preparing our collective unconscious for the idea of 'others,' ET or otherwise. It's well worth remembering that humanity's interaction with apparent visitors is hardly limited to alleged space travelers in the 20th century; Jacques Vallee's classic Passport To Magonia offers strong support to the - admittedly slippery - prospect that the UFO intelligence was functioning under the guise of faerie lore in Europe centuries before the idea of spaceflight became fashionable. It's possible that UFOs would like to initiate something like formal contact but are restrained from doing so by the physics of perception, as Whitley Strieber has suggested. So the pageant in our skies might be an ongoing indoctrination, an attempt to become more substantial - in our universe, at least - so that a more meaningful dialogue can be reached at some indeterminate point in the future. One way of achieving this might be to cultivate a milieu of incipience, in which nonhuman contact (or disclosure) seems inevitable. In fact, this illusory notion of an impending ufological 'smoking gun' has left a pronounced signature on the history of UFO research, often forcing investigators to take sides in a fruitless - if colorful - ideological battle that reduces the UFO enigma to trite discussion of galactic federations and Orwellian government oversight. If UFOs are attempting to breach our universe, our ingrained sense of disbelief might be preventing them in some arcane quantum mechanical sense. Strieber has argued that official denial of the phenomenon is designed to thwart a potential invasion of nonhuman intelligence, in which case it seems an enduring stalemate has been reached - with occasional power-plays made by both the UFOs and earthly officialdom. This idea is similar to the citizens of the Planck Brane in Rudy Rucker's science fiction epic, Frek And The Elixir. In Rucker's novel, the inhabitants of a parallel universe must accumulate a critical level of prestige and notoriety or else cease to exist. The ruling class consists of six individuals who are so well- known and casually accepted by the other Planck Braners that they persist with their individuality intact while their fellows vanish during periodic "renormalization storms"; only when the main characters deride and purposefully ignore them to they fade into the quantum background. Strieber takes a similar idea and runs with it in his horror novel, The Forbidden Zone, which depicts a reality-bending alien presence set loose upon a small town in the wake of a quantum experiment gone awry. The overriding theme, which we find prevalent in occult literature, is that our universe is permeable and can, under specific circumstances, provide a channel to unseen realms (an idea that's remarkably similar to contemporary thought on wormhole travel). Of immediate interest is Aleister Crowley's 'Lam', a "magickal" entity who bears an uncanny resemblance to today's 'Grays'. Unlike Lam, who functioned as a mentor and paraphysical guru, the Grays are typically assumed to be dispassionate ET scientists; if Crowley were practicing his consciousness experiments today, would he be greeted by dome- headed beings in skin-tight jumpsuits? (Perhaps it pays for aliens to stay in touch with predominant memes if it entails making a lasting impression. The presence of awkward, quasi- human 'Men In Black,' chronicled in detail by Kenny Randles and John Keel, suggest that aliens may have already infiltrated - perhaps in order to refine the art of passing as typical Earthlings. If so, what's the ultimate agenda?) We're left with a surreal residue of encounters and sightings that describe an intelligence operating at the periphery of human consciousness. Whether this is due to deliberate intent or can be attributed to obstruction (willful or innocuous) remains one of ufology's most significant unanswered questions. Mac Tonnies macbot.nul Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Bishop From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:26:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Bishop >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> Dr. Salla, I'd like to thank you for reading my book, Project Beta, and applying some critical thought to it. This is indeed rare, and I appreciate it. I would however like to take issue with some of your statements. You apparently misread my words or chose to let your preconceptions dictate your impressions in a number of areas. In doing research for the book, I tried to let former intelligence personnel give me their side of the story, and see where it fit in with the Ufological literature and known facts, as well as how their accounts jibed with what has been publicly reported on the fallout of the Bennewitz case, as well as my own impressions and observations after interviewing others. I have already addressed the issue of dealing with intelligence agents in another post on this list. The gist of my opinion is that you must deal with intelligence personnel if you want to get to the center of the Government/UFO 'onion'. Listening only to those who tell you what you want to hear is just as flawed as ignoring them, or worse, believing all the information that they feed you is true. It has been almost a quarter century since the events described in Project Beta occurred. The passage of time and much of the sensitivity surrounding the projects at Kirtland have had time to cool down. This makes it more likely that people involved in the disinfo campaign at the time can talk more freely about the subject. I find it interesting that people such as Col. Phil Corso and Robert Dean were welcomed with open arms because they said what we wanted to hear, although I know of no evidence uncovered as yet to back up their most sensational claims. I am not calling them liars or disinfo agents, I am merely making a point of perspective here. The best procedure I think is to listen to their stories, and check up on the information, as Robert and Ryan Wood - among others - are currently doing. How are whistleblowers more believable than intelligence agents? How do we know that these people are not intelligence agents themselves, or have been set up? If disinformation works well, the target will not only believe what they have been told or shown, but will keep their nose on the line and continue on their own, even without any subsequent confirming evidence. This is a well-demonstrated trait. If we believe whistleblower testimony out of hand, and reject intelligence leaks, we are not looking at the full picture. You assume I only used information provided to me by Doty and Moore. I also talked to Jerry Miller, Gabe Valdez, Leo Sprinkle, Garry Massey, Joe Stefula, Christa Tilton, Grant Cameron and Eric Davis, among many others, as well as published information in newspapers, books, periodicals, and on the internet, as well as declassified documents. This was made clear in the text as well as in the acknowledgements section of the book. Although the interviewees provided balance and helpful suggestions, as I recall none of these people were seriously suspicious about any sort of base at Dulce - with the possible exception of Christa Tilton. Even Officer Valdez told me that he did not observe anything along these lines on the Archuleta Mesa. Valdez lived there and dealt with the terrain and residents in the area on a daily basis. There were certainly cattle mutilated, and strange lights aplenty, but no evidence of an underground base. How do you know what was "genuine" in Bennewitz' reports? You claim that I assume his whole theory of underground base and captured humans (I never mentioned any captured people) was solely a product of disinformation. This is not the case. What I did say is that the Air Force and NSA capitalized on existing aspects of his theory for their own ends. Claims of whistleblowers are just like the claims of government agents=97we have to check the facts if they are available. Lazar, Schneider, Wolf and Burisch had incredible stories to tell about Dulce, but like Corso, Dean, and even Doty there is little or no supporting evidence. (I double checked Doty's and Moore's statements with those of others=97within the government and the UFO field, as well as published accounts. If they matched, I included them. If not, I specifically stated so.) If Schneider was murdered, was it because he was talking too much about alien bases, or was there another reason? No one has answered this question to date, although Valdez showed me letters from Schneider's widow asking for his help in investigating his death. I don't recall her mentioning anything about underground bases. None of these people talked about Dulce until a decade after Bennewitz had first started his reports. We are left with rumors and claims, but no reliable information to back them up. Plausible is not factual. The picture they paint is quite incredible and frightening, but I am not dismissing their claims out of hand. I did not say that the $75,000 grant was given to Bennewitz as part of a "sting". You state, "What is more likely is that Bennewitz had developed the means for intercepting electronic transmissions that were of great interest to the Air Force." Except for the fact that I wrote that the originating agency was actually the NSA, this is exactly what I maintained! I think that you let yourself get so involved by what you thought you read, that you didn't understand a major aspect of the case as I tried to explain it. You assume that the Air Force (as you say) wanted to find out what the aliens were doing by using Bennewitz' expertise. If that was the case, all they had to do was either copy his setup or confiscate his equipment. This would not have been difficult, since he was convinced that he was in their confidence. I followed the more likely scenario. Bennewitz was flown over the Archuleta Mesa on at least two occasions to look at the supposed indications of an underground base there. The Air Force had actually placed props on the ground to draw his attention to this area and away from Kirtland Air Force Base. Why would they do this if there really was a base under the mesa? Wouldn't they simply have told Bennewitz that there was nothing of interest there? They knew that he was contacting elected officials and news media about his concerns. It would seem self-defeating let this secret out. On the Art Bell program about a month ago, Richard Doty stated that he knew the Roswell incident was a crashed alien craft. If it were not for the fact that Doty is persona non grata in the UFO community, this would have been greeted as a revelation. Was this a another ploy by Doty to keep us listening to other lies he chooses to tell? He has been out of the Air Force for over 10 years. What would be the purpose of such shenanigans? I know many Ufologists will say that he still dances to his piper's tune, and 'you never really retire from intelligence work', but this stretches my own credulity. Besides, as I mentioned already, he was not the sole source for the narrative of the book. I realized that I didn't have much more to go on than most members of the public, so I decided to follow the information I was given, and come up with the most likely scenario. I am not a debunker or rabid skeptic. Far from it. See: www.excludedmiddle.com for some of my earlier writings on the UFO subject. To me, the evidence pointed at a disinfo campaign and little else. If there is any reliable evidence for a joint human-alien base in Dulce besides uncheckable testimony, I would like to see it. It is unfortunate that few of Bennewitz' photos of the area survive. Those that do show nothing conclusive. Colleagues who saw his aerial photos at the time could not pick out anything substantive, no matter how hard they tried. It seems to me that your concern stems from a core belief that the alien-military alliance or at least interaction is a fait accompli. I cannot subscribe wholeheartedly to a scenario for which there has been no conclusive proof. It is very interesting to study and speculate, but presently, an intellectual exercise is all we have. There is nothing wrong with this, but there are much better issues available in which to plant a basis in reality. You suggest that I stained Bennewitz' memory by my treatment of him in Project Beta. This is the opposite of my feelings and why I took great pains to emphasize this in the book. That's why I dedicated it to him. What I wanted to show was that even this brilliant man could be fooled by his own tunnel vision and his ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true, instead of weighing the evidence on a case-by-case basis. You contend that Moore announced his complicity in the disinfo campaign to cover up for the fact that there actually _was_ an underground base. I suppose that this is possible, but this tactic launches us even further into speculation. Project Beta deals with far more than the question of an underground base. Divesting this subject from the rest of the book does the story, and my research a disservice. We need to emphasize what is provable to disinterested parties, based on something besides (or in addition to) the testimony of whistleblowers. When we are dealing in human experience, i.e. something with which we are all familiar - secret weapons, government malfeasance, etc. - we can investigate claims based on a reality which is widely accepted, but to apply this to the UFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:57:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:34:40 -0400 Subject: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage Hello All, A couple of weeks ago I requested a copy of the Fleet Videos from Jaime Maussan. As is his habit, he was very friendly and responsive to my request and he provided me a copy of the videos on digital videotape. It is stunning, impressive footage. I will be posting clips from this video to the Virtually Strange Network website shortly. People need to see this footage for themselves, so that they can make up their own minds about it. The people on this List who have been identifying the objects recorded on video as balloons need to have their eyes and/or their heads, examined. I'm perfectly willing to let the video speak for itself. Once people begin to see how vast numbers of these objects remain stationary against the background sky as they are recorded in 'real time', they will quickly realize how genuinely over simplified and just plain absurd the 'balloon' explanation is. These individuals are really grasping at straws. Whatever these 'things' are, they are plainly _not_ balloons! But hey, don't take my word for it. See for yourself. Make up your own mind! Just please, don't allow a few 'arm-chair' amateurs with an agenda, to sell you a bill of goods. The video that is being recorded in Mexico is nothing short of astounding. You'll be missing out on witnessing a bit of history if you do not take the time to see the recordings for yourself. I'll make an announcement via the list when I have some clips up. Please, take a close look at them when they are posted. I'll gladly discuss "balloons" with the visually impaired ones afterward. Oh how easy it is for some..... Attempting to destroy the reputation and character of another human being by calling them a liar and a hoaxer in public is a very serious thing. Especially when done without having to present any hard evidence for the allegation. Amy Hebert and a few others do it way too easily. More, they do it with a kind of relish and mean-spiritedness that is just ugly, and revealing of their own black character and personal agendas. Hebert's recent unjustified public attack on Robles Gil is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Hey, she may be right! But, you know what? I'm calling her on this one! Amy, you can 'opine' all you want to about any UFO case that comes down the pike, but the minute you start to really try to -hurt- someone else, the 'party' is over, sister. It's simple..... If Gil's fleet videos are fake, prove it. Prove it beyond all doubt or make a public apology and retraction. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the ease with which certain people on this List have taken to attempting to ruin the reputation of witnesses who have submitted material for investigation. It's easy to call someone/anyone a liar. It's quite another to actually have to prove it beyond all doubt. If Mr. Gil is a liar as you say, then I'll assume you had _incontrovertible_ hard evidence _before_ you called him a liar in public? If so, share this thoroughly convincing evidence with the rest of us, please. It better be first person knowledge too as well as damning and conclusive proof that he _intentionally_ faked the videos. I'm curious to learn what it is that you consider ample justification to attempt to destroy another person's reputation in public like that. I hope it's a real good one. Then, if you will, I want you to tell me who made _you_ the judge, jury and public executioner of Mr. Gils character. Ante up, Ms. Hebert. Put up or shut up. Proof positive please.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Scaring Up Paranormal Profits - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:20:32 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:37:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Scaring Up Paranormal Profits - Ledger UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Source: BusinessWeek Online - U.S. >http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2005/tc20050512_6388_tc024.ht m >May 12, 2005 >News Analysis >By Olga Kharif >Scaring Up Paranormal Profits >Interest in the spirit world and UFOs is growing, The latter is news to me. >Skeptics may scoff at ghosts and UFOs, but the profits some >businesses are making off the spirit world are no mere phantoms. Again, news to me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: How To Float Like A Stone - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:27:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:41:33 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Float Like A Stone - Rudiak >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 6:39 AM >Subject: UFO UpDate: How To Float Like A Stone >Source: The Guardian OnLine - London, U.K. >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1481009,00.html#article_continue >May 11, 2005 >How To Float Like A Stone >What goes up no longer has to come down. British scientists have >developed an antigravity machine that can float heavy stones, >coins and lumps of metal in mid-air. Based around a powerful >magnet, the device levitates objects in a similar way to how a >maglev train runs above its tracks. >Peter King, a physics professor at Nottingham University, said: >"We can take an object and float it in mid-air because the >magnetic forces on the object are enough to balance gravity." >The device exploits diamagnetism. Place non-magnetic objects >inside a strong enough magnetic field and they are forced to act >like weak magnets themselves. Generate a field that is stronger >below and weaker above, and the resulting upward magnetic force >cancels out gravity. >Scientists have used diamagnetism to make wood, strawberries >and, famously, a living frog fly. "That force is strong enough >to float things with a density similar to water, but not things >with the density of rocks," Prof King said. To make their >machine more powerful, the team added an oxygen and nitrogen >mixture, a paramagnetic fluid. Inside the magnet, the mixture >helps objects to float. >The researchers, who announce their results today in the New >Journal of Physics, are working with Rio Tinto to develop the >technique to sort precious stones from soil. The US space agency >Nasa is also interested as it offers a cheaper way for zero >gravity research. >[Thanks to Stuart Miller of http://www.uforeview.net for the lead] For a good link on diamagnetic levitation and the famous floating frogs experiment from nearly a decade ago (including movies) see: http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitate.html I remember having debates on Usenet with debunkers, including a physicist, who insisted the story _must_ be a hoax. The fact is, even many physicists are not familiar with ordinary diamagnetism. It is usually treated as more of a laboratory curiosity because it is normally so weak. I remember when I took electromagnetism in college, we skipped right over the chapter describing it. Diamagnetic effects of ordinary materials, such as water, normally manifest themselves only in very large magnetic fields, such as laboratory superconducting magnets. One thing that I learned from the above link that I didn't know before is that diamagnetic levitation can be demonstrated even with ordinary magnets (see section on Diamagnetically Stablized Levitation). Place an ordinary refrigerator magnet between two sheets of a good diamagnetic material such as graphite, and it will float there. An even better parlor trick is to buy one of those very expensive, more powerful rare-earth permanent magnets, such as sold by Edmund Scientific, and the darn thing will float between your fingers! The more powerful magnet is needed because the water in your fingers has a diamagnetic repulsion about 20 times weaker than graphite. In theory, a magnet that is large enough and powerful enough could act as an 'inertial dampener', protecting humans, etc. from the nasty harmful effects of high acceleration. No anti- gravity field is needed. This is one possible solution to the question of how UFOs can demonstrate high accelerations, such as right-angle turns, without crushing possible crew members inside. The problem is that current superconducting magnets are not large enough or powerful enough or light enough (for flying craft) to make the idea work. The laboratory magnets in the floating frog experiments were 13 Tesla. A Tesla is a measure of the magnetic field equal to 10,000 gauss. To give you an idea of how large this is, the Earth's magnetic field is a few tenths of a Gauss, typical alnico bar magnets might be around 100 Gauss, and the rare-earth magnet in the floating-between-fingers demo was around 500 Gauss. MRI imagers use superconducting magnets around 1.5 Tesla or 15,000 gauss. The researchers floated frogs (plus goldfish, grasshoppers, strawberries, etc.) in a small-bore superconducting magnet nearly 10 times more powerful than those used in MRI machines. Thus to float a human, you need a superconducting magnet with a bore at least as large as an MRI but about 10 times stronger. Those don't exist. To have a practical 'inertial dampener', you need an even more powerful magnet. Diamagnetic repulsion increases roughly as the square of the magnetic field. Thus to cancel 10G's acceleration (as might be experienced in a jet fighter or conventional rocket), you would need a field of roughly 40 Tesla, and to cancel 100G's (some observed UFO accelerations) a field of roughly 140 Tesla would be needed.. Needless to say, these don't exist either. (Experimental laboratory magnets approaching 100 Tesla have been built, but require a river of water to keep them cool.) Thus all that's needed to build this fancy inertial dampener is a new, lightweight, superconducting material with a current carrying ability about two orders of magnitude greater than what we have now. Making it a room-temperature superconductor wouldn't hurt either, so you could dispose of the heavy cooling systems that ordinary superconductors require, such as liquid nitrogen or liquid helium blankets..... So at the moment, this magnetic inertial dampener is nothing but a thought-experiment, but not necessarily an impossible one. Better superconducting materials in the past 70 years have led to more powerful superconducting magnets. High-temperature ceramic superconductors were discovered only a decade ago, and carbon nanotubes, also a recently developed material, are lightweight, exhibit superconducting properties, and can carry much higher currents than traditional metallic superconductors. I know of no theoretical reasons why the necessary superconducting material might not be attainable in the future. Some Listers may remember a debate on the Rense show that Stanton Friedman had with physicist Lawrence Kraus on UFOs back in 1999. Among Kraus' arguments that UFOs were impossible was that the high inertial forces would kill any occupants and there was no way known to physics (that he knew of) to protect them. I wrote a post on UpDates saying, "not so", and mentioned the diamagnetic "inertial dampener" above. (Rense had first broached the subject, mentioning a recent patent for such a device - Kraus declared it impossible). For those of you interested,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Lazar Right On Alien Antigravity Systems? - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 03:37:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:44:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Lazar Right On Alien Antigravity Systems? - >Source: Raider News Update >http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/lazar.htm >May 12, 2005 >Have Scientists Just Proven Bob Lazar Right On >Alien Antigravity Systems? Uh, nope. >By Thomas Horn >Senior RNU News Reporter >In 1989, Robert Scott Lazar claimed to have worked as a >physicist at a hidden base referred to as S4 on a highly >classified project involving back engineering of alien >technology, antigravity and antimatter propulsion. Stanton >Friedman doesn't believe him. But have scientists just proven >Lazar was right all along? Uh, nope! <snip> >the device levitates objects in a similar way >to how a maglev train runs above its tracks." You could also hang objects from a rope, thus defying the - extremely weak - forces of gravity. That isn't "anti-gravity", and neither is maglev stuff. Diamagnetic forces have been known since day one. As for Lazar, lets just say there is a major credibility
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Back To The Saucers - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:54:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Back To The Saucers - Hatch >Source: The Guardian - London, UK >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,1481442,00.html >May 12, 2005 >Back To The Saucers >By Mark Pilkington >In February 2004, a team of Russian and American physicists discovered two new elements, glimpsed for split seconds at the Joint Institute of Nuclear Research in Dubna, Russia, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. >Led by Russian Yuri Oganessian, the physicists made their announcement in the journal Physical Review C. While their findings have yet to be repeated, they are considered highly reliable. The two new "superheavy" elements, 113 and 115, provisionally named ununtrium and ununpentium, excite physicists who think they are generated by exploding stars, and could provide clues to the origins of the universe. <snip> >According to Lazar, the saucer flies using "gravity amplifiers" >to create "an intense gravitational field" that could "distort >space/time", "bringing the destination to the source and >allowing you to cross many light years of space in little time". >The power to do this is generated in the craft's reactor, which >is fuelled by... Element 115. >Whether or not he's telling the truth, Lazar has stood by his >claims and left the UFO scene behind. As well as running a lab >equipment repair company, he is currently developing a hydrogen >fuel generator for home use and is involved in an ambitious plan >to terraform a Martian environment in an underground nuclear >missile silo. >And, if Element 115's existence is confirmed, perhaps one day >it will be called lazarium. Very interesting - the Lawrence Livermore and Russian work that is. Before anyone suggests 'Lazarium' however, I have a minor quibble. What is the half-life of element-115? Is it milliseconds, microseconds or pico-seconds? Even if its whole seconds - thousands, millions billions of times as long - it would not survive a 10 minute drive home so Lazar could study its strange properties (orange in color) without blasting all within a mile of it with the most intense radiation imaginable, as it inevitably decayed. I suggest that Pilkington study a little more physics, and a bit less BS.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 UFO Video Repository? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:15:13 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:48:39 -0400 Subject: UFO Video Repository? http://www.putfile.com/search.php The URL is to putfile.com which is a free web service where one can upload videos and pics. The search function allowed me to input "UFO" and a small list of uploaded vids and pics appeared. Anyone know more about these vids?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: UFO Review Issue 10 - Balthaser From: Dennis Balthaser <truthskr.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:04:21 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:52:53 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 10 - Balthaser >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:29:58 +0100 (BST) >Subject: UFO Review Issue 10 >Issue 10 of UFO Review is available at: >http://www.uforeview.net <snip> >And, in this issue we have for you; <snip> >Alien Commercialisation Of Roswell. Excellent piece by Dennis G. >Balthaser with amusing accompanying pictures. <snip> Hey Stuart, Thanks for the plug on my new editorial, but where are you hiding it? Didn't find it on your site in Issue 10. Must have overlooked it somewhere. Hope all is well.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:29:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:11:29 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Maccabee >Source: MSNBC Interactive >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7822879/ >May 12, 2005 >How To Crack Weird Space Cases >Lone sleuth uses the Internet and his wits to solve UFO >mysteries >By James Oberg >NBC News space analyst >Special to MSNBC >HOUSTON - When a space station astronaut made an offhand remark >about an unusual formation of lights he saw passing in front of >him during a spacewalk, the report had all the earmarks of an >unsolvable space mystery. But it didn't take long to crack the >case, thanks to the power of the Internet and one amateur space >sleuths passion to find out. >It turned out that the case of the formation-flying lights was >only the latest in a string of spooky space effects with >perfectly natural explanations. >The investigation began when NASA astronaut Leroy Chiao told >Aviation Week & Space Technology about "something interesting" >he saw during a March 28 spacewalk with Russian crewmate >Salizhan Sharipov. >"As the sun started rising after the first dark period, I looked >out in the opposite direction of the sun and saw a line of five >lights," Chiao said. The lights seemed to be flying past fairly >quickly "in an echelon formation, except that 'No. 2' was >offset," he said. <snip> >Smith knew that the place to go for images of bright lights on >the night side of Earth was the home page of the Defense >Meteorological Satellite Program, a military weather satellite >network now closely integrated with the National Oceanographic >and Atmospheric Administration. >After a day's worth of research, Smith came up with a solution >to the mystery. >"A little research on the Internet shows that the area has a >fleet of squid fishing boats which are the ones that use bright >lights to attract the squid," he reported by e-mail. "These >unusually bright zones are the result of fleets of fishing >vessels using powerful electrical lights at night to attract >squid. The fleets regularly show up in images from weather >satellites and from space stations." <snip> This time it _was_ the squid fleet. Way back in December, 1978, when there were famous sightings and a movie of unidentified lights off the coast of New Zealand the only one of numerous proposed explanations to last more than a few weeks was the "squid boat" explanation. An officer of the New Zealand Air Force was quoted as saying that the squid fleet must have played a role in the sightings because it was so bright. However, the fleet was over 100 miles from the coast of New Zealand, as proven by the satellite (!) imagery. The squid fleet image looked as bright as Christchurch, NZ, a large city. Subsequently the squid fleet hypothesis was modified to become a single such boat, near the coast. However, a search revealed no such boat - and the satellite image didn't show one near the coast, either. >Smith believes that Internet resources have provided a solution >to yet another famous UFO case: the "Mexican UFO Fleet" >encounter of March 5, 2004. Smith did a video analysis using >Landsat and DMSP data, found other images of the apparent source >of the mystery lights, and concluded that the UFOs were actually >burn-off flares from oil platforms off the Mexican coast. He >laid out the evidence last July in Skeptic magazine. This may be true... or it may not. I have been told that the AF has flown through the same area during surveillance flights many times before, and since March 5th 2004, and never saw the oil fires. If they ever do the experiment I have proposed, they will prove
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: World-Renowned Scientists To Address From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:15:25 -0400 Subject: Re: World-Renowned Scientists To Address On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:41 -0400, UFO UpDates - Toronto posted: >Source: University of California - Los Angeles >http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6137 >Date: May 11, 2005 >UCLA Conference Brings Together World-Renowned Scientists to >Address 'Astrobiology: Life Among the Stars' >Contact: Stuart Wolpert ( stuartw.nul ) >Phone: 310-206-0511 >A UCLA symposium on Friday, May 13, will feature internationally >renowned scientists addressing "Astrobiology: Life Among the >Stars." >Topics will include the search for planets and life beyond our >solar system, the implications if life is discovered on other >planets, and latest results from the Mars Rovers. >Free to the public, the 16th annual symposium sponsored by >UCLA's IGPP Center for the Study of Evolution and the Origin of >Life will be held in UCLA's Schoenberg Auditorium (near Hilgard >and Westholme avenues) from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. It is non- >technical, and designed for a general audience. <snip> I missed this one but I went to the one last year and excused myself from work at Murphy Hall (UCLA) and went across the street to the Astrobiology conference. The hall was packed with professors and students and I had to sit in the very back row. I could only stay for 2 sessions, but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:52:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:19:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! - Velez >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:06:58 +0100 >Subject: Re: Heavens Above! It's A UFO! >>Source: Denbighshire Free Press - North Wales, U.K. ><snip> >>John says he is determined to get as much evidence as possible >>to seek out the truth on the mystery objects which he has been >>logging in the night sky since since March. >>The objects change colour from red, blue, purple, green to >>dashes of bright white. >>John added: "It's a sphere and it pulses lights off it ... if >>you can imagine a kaleidoscope, it's like that. I don't know >>what they are. I see them most nights when there's no clouds, >>you get a break in the clouds and you can see them. One night I >>spotted 13." >Oh my! Some people can reach a remarkable age before noticing >the night sky for the first time. >>The MOD has been informed of the mystery visitors to the skies >>of Llannefydd but has yet to come up with an explanation. >>"When I first saw them on a Friday night I called Colwyn Bay >>police and they gave me a phone number for the Ministry of >>Defence," John said. >>An RAF member who called up a radar screen, failed to identify >>the flying object gracing his monitor, he added. >Hmm... a pound to a penny there was nothing on his monitor, >graceful or otherwise. >>John's last encounter with the mysterious objects came on Sunday >>evening. >>"You will have to see it to believe it," he said. >Whoever said "If the stars should appear one night in a thousand >years, how men would marvel and believe!" knew whereof he spoke. Geez Martin..... What a shameless display of smugness and arrogance. You deride and ridicule a case you know absolutely nothing about. Had you actually investigated this gentleman's claim and you were reporting on your findings that would be one thing. But to publicly ridicule and rag on a witness and a case you know absolutely nothing about because of a purely personal bias, is outrageous, and socially unacceptable behavior. I know it's all the fashion to be a smart-mouthed, wise-cracking, fast talker nowadays. I don't particularly care for it myself. It has none of the charm or the good natured humor, wit, and intelligence that it had in the 30's, the last time 'fast- talking wise-guys' were in vogue. This new, modern version is bereft of any saving graces. It is just mean, brash, arrogant, and nothing more than a display of an ugly attitude of imagined superiority. It just comes off as being very smug and condescending. If you have some new data on this case or this witness, this List is a great place to post it. If all you want to do is 'rap your bile into an open-mic.' and show everybody what a wise-guy you can be, this is the wrong venue. To vent your spleen on strangers you need to start a personal BLOG. That way people can there go read it if they care to. Martin, if you have any sense of decency, fairness and shame at all, you will publicly retract the tirade of ridicule you posted in toto. Then publicly apologize to the witness in the case for speaking out of turn. Do the right thing Martin. Got new data or info on a case? Bring it here to all of us. Got a personal axe to grind? Post it to your BLOG. Nobody here is interested in seeing witnesses and cases bashed, ridiculed and defamed in public just for the 'sport' of it. It isn't right or fair. This witness is not here on the List to defend himself and his reputation from your thoughtless and insensitive public derision and ridicule of his report. In case you haven't been told by anyone recently... unless you have something constructive or illuminating to offer on a case or an individual, nobody really cares what you 'personally' think about anything, Martin! Get it together. Knock off the public witness bashing unless you have some _hard_evidence_ to present along with it. I promise you, every time you try to pull a stunt like this, where you belittle or ridicule a case or a witness out of pure mean-spiritedness, with nothing new or factual to back it up, I will be right here to tap you on the shoulder with an avuncular reminder of your manners and civility.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: UFO Review Issue 10 - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:05:46 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:21:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 10 - Miller >From: Dennis Balthaser <truthskr.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:04:21 -0600 >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 10 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:29:58 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: UFO Review Issue 10 ><snip> >Alien Commercialisation Of Roswell. Excellent piece by Dennis >G.Balthaser with amusing accompanying pictures. >Hey Stuart, >Thanks for the plug on my new editorial, but where are you >hiding it? Didn't find it on your site in Issue 10. Must have >overlooked it somewhere. >Hope all is well. Hello Dennis, You had me going there for a short while! It's there, page 46, and it is listed in the table of contents at the beginning as well. Very good piece Dennis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:23:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:43:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:04:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:36 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>Fear >>Now, I wish to come back to the possible influence of SF and >>UFO stories. <snip> >Hi Gildas, >Since this topic has been lingering for a couple of weeks, I thought it might be worth my chipping in to add a few references for anyone interested in looking into any of these aspects in more detail. >First off, as you may know, the Martin Kottmeyer article you mention is available on the Magonia website at the link below: >http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/entirelymk.html Isaac and all Thank you for the link. I have read the Kottmayer article with interest, and I would have many comments to say about it. But I am just going to come back on some of the SF films which would be a source of the UFO abduction "lore", according to him, and other authors such as Kevin Randle. Well, the case seems more and more dubious to me. Notes on some films cited by Martin Kottmeyer in his paper "Entirely Unpredisposed: the Cultural Background of UFO Abductions reports", and by Kevin Randle et al. in their book "The Abduction Enigma". The following comments are also drawn from the "Internet Movie Database Entry", referred to by Kottmeyer himself, and from some books about SF movies. 1953: "Invaders from Mars" Note in the book "Yesterday's Tomorrow" by Bruce Lanier Wright (1993): it is labelled "a kid's movie", together with "The invisible boy (1957), "Tobor the Great", and "The 5,000 fingers of Dr T" (p. 146). On the other hand, according to film critic Philip Strick, in his book "Science-Fiction Movies" (1976), that film, shot by a William Cameron Menzies (known for his pre-war British film "Things to Come") had some artistic merits. Strick found it to be "an ideal metaphor for the political paranoia of the time..." (p. 14). Is that an invitation to paranoia? Martin Kottmayer, for his part, points out that "brain implants are featured in the movie "Invaders from Mars". But there is not such element in the Hill's incident. So, what is the relevance to their case? Well, he suggests one. The aliens of "Invaders from Mars" are of rather human appearance, but with a rather big nose, and ridiculous bulging eyes, looking like half ping-pong balls. Kottmeyer compares them with the first description of Betty: "In the original nightmare, Betty compares the noses of the aliens to Jimmy Durante. This is a very apt description of the noses of the mutants in "Invaders from Mars". But he also notes that Barney did not remember that, and that the detail was "edited out by Betty in her hypnosis sessions". What can we make of that? Could Betty have been influenced, inconsciously, at least in her initial effort to remember the look of her alien abductors, by a very small budget, "B grade" movie, already height years old in 1961? Let's admit that it cannot be completely ruled out (maybe a vague remembrance of a movie poster?), although Betty and Barney had no interest in such movies. In any case, this supposition certainly does not permit to argue that she invented her story. By the way, had they invented it together, Betty and Barney would have been smarter to give the same description! 1954: "Killers from Space" Comments in the "Internet Movie Database Entry": "...works better than sleeping pills..."; and: "...one of the dullest sci-fi movies around..."; "...a real sleeper..."; "...the only good thing: the "bulging eyes" of the aliens". Comment of Kottmeyer: "An abductee.. has a strange scar and a missing memory of the alien that caused it". But, like for the implant of "Invaders from Mars", Betty had no scar. In fact, if she had one, it would have been an element supporting her story! On the other hand, Barney did suffer physically, with a circle of warts which had to be removed surgically. Nothing like that was shown in that film or any other of the time: so much for the influence of SF movies. 1956: "Not of this Earth" (cited by Kevin Randle et al) This one the very low budget movies, quickly shot in a few days by Roger Corman who was a specialist of the genre. Comments in the book "Yesterday's Tomorrow" (p.142): The Davannans suffer from a strange anemia and need constant blood transfusions just to stay alive. Johnson, the alien scouting the Earth as a potential source of blood, "...can control people with a form of hypnotic telepathy, and kills his victims with radioactive blasts from his milky-white eyes, normally hidden beneath dark sunglasses. He then drains their blood with an odd pump he keeps in a metal briefcase". Comment on the alien, by P. Strick in his book "Science-Fiction Movies": "Dedicated as he is to his mission (there is much screaming and macabre business with tubes and bottles), it seems an inadequate solution to a racial emergency. Aliens, to judge from the cinema, behave somewhat irrationally in times of stress" (p. 15). Comment of Kevin Randle et al.: "Although he is not collecting genetic material, as has been suggested of the aliens reported by abductees, he is required to send humans to his home world as they attempt to end the plague destroying them. The obvious purpose is to gather genetic material." (p. 122) But again, the same question arises: could such a low budget, rather comical SF-Horror movie released in 1956, influence people like the Hills? That seems a bit far fetched. And there is no precise element, really comparable, in their story. 1956: "Earth versus Flying saucers" Kottmeyer notes that the film "...also precedes UFO lore in featuring an abduction in which thoughts are taken. Saucerian abduct a general, make his head transparent, and suck out the knowledge to store it in an Infinitely Indexed Memory Bank". That sounds impressive! Could it inspire nightmarish fantasies on innocent spectators, and prepare the ground for future abduction "lore"? The book "Yesterday's Tomorrow" (p. 106) does not see it that way, though: "Earth Versus" was designed to capitalize on the postwar flying saucer craze, which began in the late forties and reached a culmination of sorts in the great Washington D.C. flap of 1952, when for months, it seems, residents of the city could scarcely go out of doors without having their hats knocked off by silvery discs from beyond" (sic!). "By the film's end, Marvin (the heroe) devises an anti-flying saucer ray. In a thoroughly enjoyable climax, earth's forces use the ray to foil an alien raid on Washington D.C., and saucers crash into every recognizable landmark larger than a mailbox". This one does not seem to have been designed to trigger nightmarish dreams, either. On, the contrary, it loks like an effort treat UFOs as entertainment and to reduce the worries of the public about them. Take it easy, folks, the situation is under control! 1956: "It conquered the World" Comments in the book "Yesterday's Tomorrow" (p. 108): "... a ten-day, $80,000 quickie featuring a giant cucumber menace..."; the invader resembles "... a conical cucumber with muscular-looking crab claws...". "...The leaders (of a little town) are attacked by batlike creatures produced by the alien, that have, and I quote, "radiological electrode-type things in their beaks". One sting from a bat-critter makes the victim a willing slave". At the end of the film, the heroic scientist "...kills the alien with a blowtorch..."; the book praises the work of designer Paul Blaisdell: "While his monsters aren't exactly convincing or frightening, they are charming, and very much part of the history of the genre". Here is another note on that film, from the book "A pictorial History of Science-Fiction films", by Jeff Rovin (1975): "From Venus came the most absurd-looking monster ever, created by Paul Blaisdell, who should have known better, in "It conquered the World (1956)" (p. 103). Nothing there to impress the Hills, it seems. 1957: "Invasion of the Saucer Men" Comments in the "Internet Movie Database Entry": Genre: comedy/sci-fi. "It's great fun for 50's monster lovers". Comments in the book "Yesterday's Tomorrow"(p. 110): The film "...began as a serious (more or less) film.... During the film production, however, it "just sort of collapsed" into a comedy, as Blaisdell (designer of the bug-eyed monsters) put it. The result is a weird mishmash that veers from low-grade slapstick to some fairly gruesome, if unconvincing, violence, all larded over with an exceptionally irritating "comic" sound track". Further comments: a small town is invaded by "...swollen-headed, bulging-eyed midgets from Beyond. The aliens kill an over-curious passerby by injecting him with a lethal dose of alcohol delivered through their needlelike claws. Later... an alien tries this trick on a bull, and gets one of his huge eyes bloodily gouged out. Remember, it's a comedy, so yock it up". Another comment: "... Saucer-Men is fairly dismal by any objective standard. Unsurprisingly, most of the laughs to be found here are of the unintentional variety, and so the "so-bad- it's-good" crowd seems to have adopted the film as a, uh, classic". Another note on that film, from the book "A pictorial History of Science-Fiction films", by Jeff Rovin: "Invasion of the Saucer Men (1957) is another of those teenagers-versus-aliens films; however, there is something to be said for this effort. It is what amounts to a satire wherein diminutive creatures from space inject alcohol into bloodstreams of their victims, making them drunk; naturally, when the unfortunates run to the police, their story of alien invaders is not believed. The creatures are eliminated when teenagers unite and disintegrate them with the high intensity-beams of their auto headlights". What we have again is another low budget movie for kids which ends well, nothing to trigger nightmarish fantasies. But lets put back in perspective these little sci-fi-horror movies: they were marginal productions, compared with the better known movies
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:48:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Gevaerd >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:57:33 -0400 >Subject: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >A couple of weeks ago I requested a copy of the Fleet Videos >from Jaime Maussan. As is his habit, he was very friendly and >responsive to my request and he provided me a copy of the videos >on digital videotape. >It is stunning, impressive footage. I will be posting clips from >this video to the Virtually Strange Network website shortly. >People need to see this footage for themselves, so that they can >make up their own minds about it. The people on this List who >have been identifying the objects recorded on video as balloons >need to have their eyes and/or their heads, examined. <snip> >Attempting to destroy the reputation and character of another >human being by calling them a liar and a hoaxer in public is a >very serious thing. Especially when done without having to >present any hard evidence for the allegation. >Amy Hebert and a few others do it way too easily. More, they do >it with a kind of relish and mean-spiritedness that is just >ugly, and revealing of their own black character and personal >agendas. Hebert's recent unjustified public attack on Robles Gil >is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. <snip> >If Mr. Gil is a liar as you say, then I'll assume you had >_incontrovertible_ hard evidence _before_ you called him a liar >in public? If so, share this thoroughly convincing evidence with >the rest of us, please. >It better be first person knowledge too as well as damning and >conclusive proof that he _intentionally_ faked the videos. I'm >curious to learn what it is that you consider ample >justification to attempt to destroy another person's reputation >in public like that. >I hope it's a real good one. >Then, if you will, I want you to tell me who made _you_ the >judge, jury and public executioner of Mr. Gils character. >Ante up, Ms. Hebert. Put up or shut up. Proof positive please. Dear John: I am was absolutely impressed and actually amazed when I saw the videos Jaime showed in Laughlin. So were everybody else at the conference. This is why, since last March, I have been insisting on defending the extraordinary nature of the objects filmed in the flotillas, even when many people - here on this List and others - completely refuse to accept them _without_ even _looking_ at them. Without! I am very glad that, besides me, Santiago, another fellow and you have also seen the videos and can comment them here, to let our colleagues important they are. You described the videos precisely in your e-mail. As for me, they are the most intriguing pieces of evidence that I have ever seen about or visitors. Balloons? Birds? Come on!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:36:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:10:49 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Velez >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:29:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>Source: MSNBC Interactive >>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7822879/ >>May 12, 2005 >>How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>Lone sleuth uses the Internet and his wits to solve UFO >>mysteries >>By James Oberg >>NBC News space analyst >>Special to MSNBC <snip> >>Smith knew that the place to go for images of bright lights on >>the night side of Earth was the home page of the Defense >>Meteorological Satellite Program, a military weather satellite >>network now closely integrated with the National Oceanographic >>and Atmospheric Administration. <snip> >Subsequently the squid fleet hypothesis was modified to become a >single such boat, near the coast. However, a search revealed no >such boat - and the satellite image didn't show one near the >coast, either. Hi Bruce, >>Smith believes that Internet resources have provided a solution >>to yet another famous UFO case: the "Mexican UFO Fleet" >>encounter of March 5, 2004. Smith did a video analysis using >>Landsat and DMSP data, found other images of the apparent source >>of the mystery lights, and concluded that the UFOs were actually >>burn-off flares from oil platforms off the Mexican coast. He >>laid out the evidence last July in Skeptic magazine. >This may be true... or it may not. I have been told that the AF >has flown through the same area during surveillance flights many >times before, and since March 5th 2004, and never saw the oil >fires. >If they ever do the experiment I have proposed, they will prove >it one way or another. You can't reiterate that often enough for Smith who is oblivious to any suggestion that the test is even necessary. It is this stubborn insistence and unfounded confidence that they are in possession of _The_ answer, that exposes these biased agents of disinformation. The bloody FLIR needs to be calibrated just to find if there is any slop in the system and if so, in which direction. Depending on the acquisition of that data alone we could find out if, and by how much, those images were above, on, or below the horizon. Smith who does all his research and investigating on the Internet from his arm-chair does nothing to help 'solve' anything. In fact, what these trigger-happy pseudo-religious. thought-police debunkers end up accomplishing is, further muddying already murky waters. Internet solution to a UFO case? Smith is a funny guy without trying. Just another case of, "instant this, instant that." "Problems" such as pesky UFO sightings must be explained and solved quickly. Lest they leave the impression that they are not so easily explained! Debunkers are the 'damage control' guys for their brethern who go through life think it is their job to dictate to the rest of us what comprises 'acceptable' thinking and view of reality. Pompous brown-shirts! There is so much important data missing that the test flight you requested would be just what is needed to provide some answer to important questions. Answers that are needed _before_ publicly declaring the case "solved". Smith has huge cohones proclaiming _any_ case "closed" or "solved." He has an incredible sense of self- importance and entitlement. To the point of excess. Professional arm-chair debunkers like Smith, who are only interested in becoming the first debunker on the block to get their 'solution' published in one of the religious-skeptic's favorite periodicals, are nothing new. Like Klass and Nickel and others of their ilk, Smith too will eventually expose himself to all for what he is; a close minded, other end of the spectrum version of a religious fanatic. >On the other hand, no one has offered a logical explanation for >the radar target which began the whole 'UFO surveillance' >flight. <LMAO!> I asked him abut that one in my last post to him. He never responded to it at all. All the more vocal, visible debunkers on the List have avoided touching that one with a ten foot pole. Like it was a plague carrier! Debunker anti-venom = Hard facts and data! ;) You're a good man, Bruce. People don't say thank you enough for all the 'thankless' work that you do pro-bono. _Thank_you_! Mostly for just being there and contributing all that you do. Here's hoping the Mexicans eventually perform the much needed test flight! It is what it will take to convince the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:38:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:12:50 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:23:39 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:04:27 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>Fear >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:36 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>>Fear >>>Now, I wish to come back to the possible influence of SF and >>>UFO stories. ><snip> >>Since this topic has been lingering for a couple of weeks, I >>thought it might be worth my chipping in to add a few >>references for anyone interested in looking into any of >>these aspects in more detail. >>First off, as you may know, the Martin Kottmeyer article you >>mention is available on the Magonia website at the link >>below: >>http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/entirelymk.html >Thank you for the link. I have read the Kottmayer article >with interest, and I would have many comments to say >about it. <snip> Gildas, I forgot to mention that Kottmeyer's discussion of the relevant films is not limited to his well known article at the link above. In particular, he has discussed a number of the relevant films (and relevant abduction incidents) in Ronald Story's revised Encyclopedia ("The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001)), which can be bought on CD at a bargain price at his website. See the right hand column at the webpage below: http://www.ronaldstory.com/Purchase.htm A number of the relevant references to Kottmeyer's other discussions are included in the zipped Microsoft Word document at the link I gave in my email a few days ago, i.e. at the link below: http://tinyurl.com/9rskk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 14 Re: Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre - From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:45:18 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:16:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre - >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Liminal UFOs And The Alien Raison D'Etre <snip> >One idea to account for this behavior is that the UFO >intelligence somehow hinges on our belief in it (a notion that >assumes an esoteric origin instead of the more common 'nuts and >bolts' extraterrestrial hypothesis). <snip> >The overriding theme, which we find prevalent in occult >literature, is that our universe is permeable and can, under >specific circumstances, provide a channel to unseen realms Hi Mac T, Once again you've put into fluent words what some of us have been half-way to saying (or thinking). Working awareness of European/world folk-lore made me sympathetic to Vallee's interpretations - as some of you know - but couldn't progress from that point for quite a while. BUT, fairly recently got to know about results of long running P.E.A.R. (Princeton) experimental results. _Shock_ - having 'believers' present not only changes perceptions - their belief changes physical _events_! http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/2.html Those P.E.A.R. results also show that 'anti-psi' lab workers tend to 'turn-off' psi/P-K effects, but small intimate groups of believers, or large 'charismatic' groups actually amplify physical, real, anomalous effects (even when attendees don't know there's an experiment running). Think what those _physical_ changes could do to the brain networks of a really large assembly of believers! The point is - we know we've never been able to see 'reality' and aren't seeing 'reality' now. All top-line physicists are agreed on that point. What might we see if - just for a few seconds - we all became believers? Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:03:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:07:41 -0400 Subject: Re: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage - Velez >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:48:07 -0300 >Subject: Re: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:57:33 -0400 >>Subject: The Mexican UFO Fleets Footage >>A couple of weeks ago I requested a copy of the Fleet Videos >>from Jaime Maussan. As is his habit, he was very friendly and >>responsive to my request and he provided me a copy of the videos >>on digital videotape. >>It is stunning, impressive footage. I will be posting clips from >>this video to the Virtually Strange Network website shortly. >>People need to see this footage for themselves, so that they can >>make up their own minds about it. The people on this List who >>have been identifying the objects recorded on video as balloons >>need to have their eyes and/or their heads, examined. ><snip> >>Attempting to destroy the reputation and character of another >>human being by calling them a liar and a hoaxer in public is a >>very serious thing. Especially when done without having to >>present any hard evidence for the allegation. >>Amy Hebert and a few others do it way too easily. More, they do >>it with a kind of relish and mean-spiritedness that is just >>ugly, and revealing of their own black character and personal >>agendas. Hebert's recent unjustified public attack on Robles Gil >>is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. ><snip> >>If Mr. Gil is a liar as you say, then I'll assume you had >>_incontrovertible_ hard evidence _before_ you called him a liar >>in public? If so, share this thoroughly convincing evidence with >>the rest of us, please. >>It better be first person knowledge too as well as damning and >>conclusive proof that he _intentionally_ faked the videos. I'm >>curious to learn what it is that you consider ample >>justification to attempt to destroy another person's reputation >>in public like that. >>I hope it's a real good one. >>Then, if you will, I want you to tell me who made _you_ the >>judge, jury and public executioner of Mr. Gils character. >>Ante up, Ms. Hebert. Put up or shut up. Proof positive please. Hola A.J., To All: Please excuse me, indulge me, for a moment as I wish to say certain things in Spanish to my esteemed Latino colleagues. A.J. wrote: >I am was absolutely impressed and actually amazed when I saw the >videos Jaime showed in Laughlin. So were everybody else at the >conference. Claro que si! Of course you were impressed. Anyone with eyes that can see would be impressed. I described it as 'stunning.' Me tiro al piso! It floored me! >This is why, since last March, I have been insisting >on defending the extraordinary nature of the objects filmed in >the flotillas, even when many people - here on this List and >others - completely refuse to accept them _without_ even >_looking_ at them. Without! I'm sorry, I've been away A.J. I have been focusing my energy and time on my family and work. Had I been here, I promise you it would not have been such an uphill battle for you to get the word out about what has been happening in Mexico. I would have kept the flies out of your hair. Yo no le tengo miedo a estos pinches 'amateur Internet debunkers.' Yo me lo sacudo como si fueran moscas. I'm here now. Leave me to play 'shortstop.' Not too many loose balls will get past my position. Like I said, you just focus on the job, get the word out. Make sure the most people get to see it all. I'll deal with the flies and low-balls. ;) A.J. we've got the easy job. The videos speak for themselves. We don't need no stinking interpreters to tell us what our eyes see. After enough people have seen the videos for themselves these dime-store Internet debunkers will gradually go silent. Watch. I bought a book of matches to the party and I'm ready to start a fire. Como la cancion... 'la casa de Tula cojio candela, ella se fue a dormir y no apago la vela....' ;) >I am very glad that, besides me, Santiago, another fellow and >you have also seen the videos and can comment them here, to let >our colleagues important they are. I will my friend. Watch my smoke. >You described the videos precisely in your e-mail. I have eyes to see. It's easy. >As for me, they are the most intriguing pieces of evidence that I >have ever seen about or visitors. Balloons? Birds? Come on! Que cojones! I don't know how anyone could say that knowing that others will actually see the videos and realize how absurd the suggestion is that those are balloons. Boggles my mind how they can do that. They know they are going to get busted for making up crap like that. Yet they do it anyway. Maybe because they have articles they want to sell to skeptical magazines? I don't know. What do you think? <LOL> >But I understand the impact the videos can cause for someone is >certainly a very hard and very few people impacted that way >absorbs the hit. True. I think the ones who protest the most are the most threatened by the phenomenon. It is 'they' who will be leaping out of windows if and when first contact happens. It will be their own rigidity of thinking that will be their undoing. In
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 UFOs Spotted Over Melbourne From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:03:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:12:09 -0400 Subject: UFOs Spotted Over Melbourne Source: The Herald Sun - Melbourne, Australia http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage/0,5481,15290518,00.html 15may05 UFOs Spotted Over Melbourne By Matthew Schulz What are orange, hover high in the sky over the eastern suburbs and form strange, intricate patterns? If witnesses to the strange phenomenon seen on Friday night are to be believed, the answer could be alien spaceships. The mystery developed at 10.30pm when about a dozen of the orange lights were seen hovering over Ferntree Gully. Tim Webster, 23, of Upwey, admits he was looking forward to an alien abduction as he photographed the lights on his phone- camera. "I was really hoping they were going to land. I was like, 'Take me! Take me!' Seriously, the galaxy is too big for us to be alone. "They were too high for fireworks, higher than a jet and creating patterns that no aircraft could ever do." Mr Webster called his friend Aaron Singe, 22, who was at Mountain Gate shopping centre. "Tim just said, 'look outside, you're not going to believe it'," Mr Singe said. "I'm pretty hard to convince about this sort of thing, but this is too weird." Another friend, Stuart Wilson, 24, managed to take video footage of the lights. The shaky video shows a dozen pricks of light forming shapes such as diamonds, lines, characters and what looks like the Southern Cross. The lights were visible for 10 minutes before flying in different directions and vanishing, Mr Wilson said. "It's possible aliens are driving them, but until I see one I'm not going to be convinced," he said. "This is pretty close, but I didn't see any little green men." But Mr Webster didn't need convincing. "I was never into sci-fi but now I'm going to do my homework on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:51:18 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:21:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> >>>Michael Salla, I have trouble believing much of what you say because >>>you have so blindly accepted nonsense from these guys. I am sure >>>that the government is laughing it's head off at seeing you do >>>so much well written disinformation... perhaps misinformation >>>would be better. Sure the government has lied.They can at least >>>hide behind national security. But what excuse can Lazar, Wolf >>>et al provide? >>Stanton, who defines 'nonsense' here? Just because someone >>doesn't supply sufficient hard evidence or supporting documents >>to meet your stringent standards doesn't mean they are >>disseminating nonsense. You are asserting your methodological >>bias as the benchmark standard for whistleblower or witness >>credibility. Sensible people can disagree over methodology and >>reach divergent opinions in particular cases. Claiming someone >>is disseminating 'nonsense' or that a researcher is 'blind' >>because they accept in whole or part the testimony of a >>whistleblower or witness is a useful rhetorical method but >>really doesn't address the inherent research difficulties in >>this field. You for example accept that the government 'lies', >>but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw >>public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of >>discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. Are you being >>sensible or naive here? Am I being gullible in accepting claims >>that the 'secret' government does indeed resort to these tactics >>to discredit individuals? We can debate all day but resorting to >>dismissive labels such as nonsense, blind, etc., doesn't help >>anyone or answer these basic questions. Yes, the 'government' >>lies, but does the government remove, alter or destroy evidence >>to make one out to be a liar? >Michael, I use the word "Nonsense" advisedly. Michael Wolf >attended Upsala, but did not finish. That is it. According to >his brother and three old friends, he never completed any >college program, did spend time in a mental hospital for which >his mother was asking her divorced husband for more support. He >was never in the military was not a Colonel pilot, was not close >to the Clintons, etc. The claim from him and him alone supported >by nothing is that he had 6 degrees including an MD from McGill, >PhDs in theoretical Physics from MIT and Cal Tech, a law degree >from Georgetown and 2 more degrees. Not one shred of evidence >has been presented.No diplomas, no listings. These claims are >_nonsense_. Aloha Stan, Michael Wolf is a very interesting and complicated case as you well know. Firstly, Wolf's brother, Ron Kruvant, changed his story after Michael Wolf died. Ron Kruvant was previously interviewed and confirmed what Michael had to say about his government education, UFO contacts, etc. I think we should consider what factors drove Ron Kruvant to change his story before you jump the gun and use his changed testimony to discredit Wolf. Stories about Michael being in a Mental hospital were made by his sister who was ten years Michael's junior and was too young to remember Michael's activities with UFO's and recruitment by the government, both of which were initially confirmed before Ron Kruvant's retraction. Michael Wolf himself admited in an interview that his sister was mentally disturbed so it's perhaps no surprise that she now accuses Wolf of this. As for your statements that Michael was not in the military, close to the Clintons, and had no degrees, these are based on lack of documentation. Lack of documentation does not prove Michael Wolf was lying, it merely points to that and a number of alternative explanations. The one I believe is applicable is that he worked on classified projects as he claimed and was verified by a number of researchers. Jim Courant, Paola Harris and Michael Hesseman all personally travelled to Connecticut to interview Michael Wolf, check his documents and overhead converstations he had with medical experts and acclaimed scientists. They were convinced he was legitimate. You never physically visited Michael Wolf to check his claims as Courant, Harris and Hesseman did. I believe their conclusions are more reliable than your own and I consider Michael Wolf to be a legitimate whistleblower. >Bob Lazar did take at least one class at Pierce Junior College >near LA under physics Prof. William Duxler. He claimed Duxler >taught Physics at Cal Tech. NOT TRUE... only at Pierce. No one >has provided any evidence that he has received any degrees from >anywhere. He did not work for Los Alamos. He worked for Kirk >Meyer. He received his high school diploma on Long Island in >August having taken one science course, chemistry. His >educational and professional claims are _nonsense_, not even an >advisor for his MS thesis.I have noted the many checks I have >done with many offices at MIT etc Here we go ahead with your document searches. Stan, I'm puzzled why you won't accept that the documentary records of those working on classified projects can and are regularly removed or tampered with as a condition of employment to guard against unauthorized disclosure of information. Perhaps you have you not sufficiently thought through what has been set up by the government. That's surprising since you have researched both Roswell crash and some of the Majestic Documents (EBD and SOM) and find them credible. Don't you see the implications of your own research? If Roswell and the Majestic documents are credible, then a system is in place to systematic discredit and intimidate whistleblowers/witnesses and remove public records of employees to maintain secrecy. That's the logical outcome of your own research and yet you refuse to accept this. >Bob's physics claims are more double-talk. Yes, 4 atoms of >element 115 have been created in a period of a month at a huge >accelerator. The half life is too short for anybody to collect >500 pounds as Bob has alleged.I have noted many more, you should >pardon the expression, facts The scientists who produced the 4 atoms of element 115 said that in theory a stable isotope could be created using technology that doesn't presently exist on earth. That means that extraterrestrials with advanced technologies can produce stable isotopes of 115. Since Lazar claimed that the 500 pounds came from ET sources, then Lazar's testimony was validated. >Michael, I gather you will believe what you want to believe, but >you are certainly undermining the efforts of legitimate >Whistleblowers by promoting _nonsense_. Please provide any >evidence, soft, hard, or medium, that these _nonsensical_claims_ >are legitimate. In your view Stan, are there any legitimate whistleblowers discussing classified projects involving EBE's and/or ET technologies? As for different categories of evidence, I think it would be very useful to have a discussion on what constitutes hard, soft or medium evidence. We could then rank them and come up with criteria for how to work with whistleblowers that have more or less in each of these categories. In my view, soft evidence involves factors such as whistleblower credibility, integrity, coherence and consistency. Taking a lie detector test for example is soft evidence. Lazar did well in his lie detector tests so I would cite that as soft evidence in his favor. <snip> >Corso made a sworn statement to attorney Peter Gersten that he >had been a member of the NSC. He refused to withdraw it when >Peter showed him the letter from the Eisenhower Library. >Incidentally, many of the minutes and lists of attendees at a >host of NSC meetings are not any longer classified. Liaison >people like Corso were concerned with particular areas not all >NSC activities and did not even have a need to know for what >other people were concerned with..... What precisely did Corso say in the sworn statement to Gersten? I'd like to see it. Corso, as I showed in the quote I supplied, only ever said that he served on the staff of the National Security Council. He was not a member and did not claim to be. You are defending a red herring in insisting that Corso claimed to be a member of the NSC. He was on the staff of the NSC. These are very different job descriptions. >>As for the Eisenhower library having no record of Corso >>attending NSC meetings or being a member of the NSC, you asked >>them the wrong questions. As a staff member, Corso did not have >>to be necessarily present at NSC meetings to fulfill his >>functions, nor was he a member of the NSC as we know. If you >>asked the Eisenhower adminstration if Corso was a member, then >>of course the answer would be no. That was an elementary mistake >>on your part. So what's your point here about the Eisenhower >>administration lying? You should have asked the Eishenhower >>library whether the list of staff members assigned to President >>Eisenhower NSC is classified information, and whether the >>attendence at NSC meetings in terms of staff representatives is >>also classified information. In both cases, the answer would >>most likely have been 'yes' which explains the answers you got. >>FOIA would not help you get the attendence of NSC meetings since >>it's not covered under FOIA so there would be no way of you >>getting such information unless it was declassified. It's not >>mine or Corso's problem if you asked the wrong questions and >>didn't get the validation you were seeking. >Michael, here you go with more nonsense. My requests were NOT >FOIA requests. There is a huge amount of declassified NSC info. >I didn't ask if he had attended NSC meetings. They checked and >told me "We have not located any evidence that he ever attended >an actual NSC meeting" and sent me some letters from his >superiors. You want to make him an important cog in the NSC >wheel . He was not I never said your requests were FOIA, only that if you wanted to know who attended NSC meetings you would not be able to do it if it weren't declassifed, and that FOIA would not help in finding out. I would expect that there's a huge amount of declassified NSC info, but that does NOT mean that attendence at NSC meetings was part of the declassified material. You are making a major error here in making such an assumption. What the librarian told you was that they could not locate evidence that he attended NSC meetings in the declassified material that is available to the general public. They could not look into the classified material and tell you if Corso did or didn't attend the NSC meetings. They would be breaking the law in doing so. Since you had no way of knowing how many of the NSC meetings were declassified in terms of attendence, then your question about Corso's attendence was erroneous. As I said earlier, you asked the wrong question. Also, when did I say anything about Corso being an important cog in the NSC wheel? He was a Lt Col appointed as a staff member to the NSC comprising Cabinet level officials. He was no important cog. The important stuff happened when he was head of the Army's Foreign Technology Desk at the Pentagon. Why are you focusing on his NSC service when you have had no luck in finding documentation to satisfy your penchant for documentary verification of whistleblower testimonies? >I am glad to see you have done some homework on the NSC. I have >no idea where your claims about what is, or isn't, classified and >about Corso originate. Have you actually been to the Ike Library >and had dealings with their archivists? Or are you making your >comments up as you go along. The attendence at NSC meetings is classified information. That is well known among foreign policy professionals and I'm surprised you weren't aware of this. The records of meetings, minutes, attendence, etc., remains classified until such time as its release doesn't threaten national security and in accord with the declassification set in place by any administration. It may take decades for NSC material to be declassified. As for doing homework on the NSC, I did my initial research on the NSC while writing my US foreign policy book (The Hero's Journey Toward A Second American Century), and also got a chance to quiz a number of individuals who worked at the NSC while I was working at the School of International Service at American University. I'm no expert on the NSC but have a working
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:23:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:38:05 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:29:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>Smith believes that Internet resources have provided a solution >>to yet another famous UFO case: the "Mexican UFO Fleet" >>encounter of March 5, 2004. Smith did a video analysis using >>Landsat and DMSP data, found other images of the apparent source >>of the mystery lights, and concluded that the UFOs were actually >>burn-off flares from oil platforms off the Mexican coast. He >>laid out the evidence last July in Skeptic magazine. >This may be true... or it may not. I have been told that the AF >has flown through the same area during surveillance flights many >times before, and since March 5th 2004, and never saw the oil >fires. I respect your work. You have taken on cases I would not dream of touching and done an excellent job. If and when the Mexican Air Force provides us with FLIR video tapes of a duplication of the flight and the weather is the same (at least clear and hopefully it matches the day of the notorious "UFO" fleet) and the oil rig flares (I don't know how they change from day to day) are operating, _and_ they do not show the oil rig flares in the video, _then_ I will recant. But keeping the videos under wraps and not coming forward and doing everything secretly after they have released the UFO FLIR tapes seems irresponsible or incompetent. >If they ever do the experiment I have proposed, they >will prove it one way or another. It depends on the level of proof you need. Sure, some people will need the duplicate flight. I don't. I don't know about you, but I am in this for myself, not for everyone else. I just do this analysis to show myself that these things really must be somethign special. I gave the analysis to others because they seem interested. People accuse me of not really wanting it to be "real". Baloney. >On the other hand, no one has offered a logical >explanation for the radar target which began the >whole 'UFO surveillance' flight. I examined that one and it was no oil rig light. I did not see it behaving oddly in the FLIR video. It was moving (as the oil rig flares did not) so it could "just" be a UFO. It could just be an airplane. Will we ever know? I doubt it. Will it convince me of alien spaceships? No. The "UFO" fleet would have. But it didn't pan out. By the way, I have though about it and I really only like the "official" sources of UFO videos. So if NASA, the military or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:43:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:40:38 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:36:37 -0400 >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:29:35 -0400 >>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>If they ever do the experiment I have proposed, they will prove >>it one way or another. >You can't reiterate that often enough for Smith who is oblivious >to any suggestion that the test is even necessary. Wrong. They can do the test. Some people need more "proof" than others. My data/analysis speaks for itself. If it isn't good enough, fine. Wait for a test. >The bloody FLIR needs to be calibrated just to find if there is >any slop in the system and if so, in which direction. Nice to be able to get, but too late by now to get that data, thanks to the Mexican Air Force handling of the affair. >Depending >on the acquisition of that data alone we could find out if, and >by how much, those images were above, on, or below the horizon. I agree the elevation was a problem. But the azimuth was fairly easy to calibrate and the FLIR UFO lights matched the oil rig flare lights to an uncanny degree. I would suggest a mirage but I hate to resort to that, especially when the 3D model shows they were easily visible from the aircraft at altitude. >Smith who does all his research and investigating on the >Internet from his arm-chair does nothing to help 'solve' >anything. I admit I am fairly lazy. I don't stand in fields looking to the heavens for the next UFO. I don't interrogate witnesses whom I can never tell are lying. I would prefer to have the computer+camera scan the heavens for UFOs and use witnesses only as a first level alarm bell for a key area to monitor. >In fact, what these trigger-happy pseudo-religious. >thought-police debunkers end up accomplishing is, further >muddying already murky waters. Hum. Did I force anyone to accept my analysis or data? I think I have provided sufficient writeup for them to duplicate the analysis (the scientific method, something sorely lacking in ufology). >Internet solution to a UFO case? Smith is a funny guy without >trying. Just another case of, "instant this, instant that." Not all UFO sightings can be answered easily using the Internet. Its too bad that MOST UFO sightings have no answer, mainly because no one takes the time to try to do it and secondly because there is simply not enough real data to use to try to do so. >"Problems" such as pesky UFO sightings must be explained and >solved quickly. Lest they leave the impression that they are not so easily explained! Giant UFO sightings that fall through and get shown to be nothing more than prosaic phenomena give ufology a black eye. The longer they fester the more a laughing stock ufology becomes. Lets try to prevent that. >Debunkers are the 'damage control' guys for their brethern who >go through life think it is their job to dictate to the rest of >us what comprises 'acceptable' thinking and view of reality. I ain't forcing you or anyone dude. I just show my data and analysis. >Pompous brown-shirts! So I'm a Nazi? Weird dude! >There is so much important data missing that the test flight you >requested would be just what is needed to provide some answer to >important questions. Answers that are needed _before_ publicly >declaring the case "solved". Smith has huge cohones proclaiming >_any_ case "closed" or "solved." He has an incredible sense of >self- importance and entitlement. To the point of excess. I have every right to think its is solved based on my data and analysis. It is the scientific method for you to provide counter data and analysis to refute point by point by work. I would appreciate such assessment because it will make the analysis better and who knows maybe you can provide some data or analysis that convinces me. It would be nice. >Professional arm-chair debunkers like Smith, who are only >interested in becoming the first debunker on the block to get >their 'solution' published in one of the religious-skeptic's >favorite periodicals, are nothing new. Like Klass and Nickel and >others of their ilk, Smith too will eventually expose himself to >all for what he is; a close minded, other end of the spectrum >version of a religious fanatic. Someone asked me for my analysis. I put it on my website for colleagues. I guess you are just pigeonholing me with the debunker gang. Well, we shall see. What will you say when I find and publish a true UFO case? >>On the other hand, no one has offered a logical explanation for >>the radar target which began the whole 'UFO surveillance' >>flight. >I asked him abut that one in my last post to him. He never >responded to it at all. All the more vocal, visible debunkers on >the List have avoided touching that one with a ten foot pole. >Like it was a plague carrier! I thought I sent such a posting responding to you. Anyway, as I said, when I examined the FLIR video it seemed to be moving such as the oil rig flares did not. It IS as UFO. I don't know what it was, you don't. It seemed like an airplane to me. I have no proof. My data/analysis only explained the UFO fleet, not the individual UFOs that appeared at the beginning or end of the UFO video. I have examined that video closely and have alot of "UFO"s that I found on it but no one has discussed them because they are not moving (on the ground?). Who down in Mexico has gone to those spots? No one. >Here's hoping the Mexicans eventually perform the much needed >test flight! Fine.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 The Right Questions In UFO Research & Exopolitics From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:55:12 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:44:07 -0400 Subject: The Right Questions In UFO Research & Exopolitics Aloha All, Here's my latest Exopolitics Comment which examines the kinds of questions investigators should ask whistleblowers who claim to be revealing classified information from projects involving extaterrestrial entities or technologies. A formated version with a summary table is available at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-30.htm Any suggestions for improving my list of questions will be welcomed. ----- Exopolitical Comment # 30: Asking the Right Questions in UFO Research and Exopolitics Classified projects related to extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs) or extraterrestrial technologies are conducted by range of military services, national security agencies and private corporations. These are without exception highly compartmentalized and classified with severe penalties for those releasing information on these without authorization. Classification levels go beyond the conventional 'Confidential', 'Secret' and 'Top Secret' classification used in the U.S. for those working with sensitive government information; and involve compartmentalized classifications such as MAJIC, COSMIC, UMBRA, and Q clearances which are all strictly awarded on a 'need to know' basis. Project managers of highly classified or 'deep black' projects that fall under compartmentalized categories reserved for extraterrestrial related affairs, are responsible for setting security procedures for such projects and these procedures are enforced with no oversight by Congressional/Legislative committees. The Project Manager has great autonomy in setting security procedures that are designed to prevent unauthorized access by all except those with a demonstrable 'need to know'. Individuals who are employed in such projects perform specific functions according to their training and as a consequence have to agree to security procedures, even if this conflicts with their basic Constitutional rights. Furthermore, whistleblowers who reveal 'unauthorized' information may be permitted to do so as long as this is confined to areas and topics that are approved by clandestine authorities responsible for authorizing public disclosure. In such cases of unauthorized release of classified information where the whistleblower/witness is not punished for such disclosures, a policy of discrediting the whistleblower/witness is put in place. The committee system created to oversee and coordinate highly classified projects involving EBEs and ET technologies can be described as the 'secret government'. The 'secret government' dates from the creation of the Majestic 12 Committee allegedly created by President Truman, and mentioned for the first time in the famed Truman Memo of September 24, 1947. The growing power and influence of the 'secret government' has resulted in the gradual erosion of Presidential executive power in the UFO/extraterrestrial matters. This was confirmed by President Bill Clinton to famed journalist Sarah McClendon who asked him why he doesn't do more to tell the public the truth about UFO's, Clinton replied: "Sarah, there's a secret government within the government, and I have no control over it." The procedures and penalties associated for those involved in the unauthorized release of information from highly classified projects related to EBEs and/or ET technologies is often ignored by UFO researchers who typically ask specific questions of whistleblowers or witnesses about events, documents, entities or technology associated with the classified projects the whistleblower/witness allegedly worked in. These questions are often designed to determine whistleblower/witness 'credibility', 'knowledge' of the project in question, and their 'veracity'. However, these kinds of questions may threaten the individual if s/he were to comply since it may reveal more classified information than the individual is 'permitted' to reveal. Asking the wrong question can close the door on a promising avenue of information and more importantly get the whistleblower/witness into a great deal of trouble. What follows is a list of ten 'wrong' questions to be asked of whistleblowers/witnesses concerning extraterrestrial related 'deep black' projects. An explanation for why a question is the wrong one to ask, and a suggestion for the 'right' question is offered. Wrong Questions to Ask Whistleblowers/Witnesses of 'Deep Black' Projects. 1. Where's the hard evidence for your claims? This question is wrong to ask since it assumes that the whistleblower can provide hard evidence to substantiate his/her claims. This puts the burden of proof on a witness/whistleblower revealing information on classified projects to provide sufficient hard evidence to satisfy whatever criteria imposed by the researcher. It is illegal to posses 'hard evidence' on classified projects so demanding this of whistleblowers or demanding sufficient hard evidence to satisfy the researchers criteria does not serve any purpose other than helping to discredit whistleblowers when this cannot be supplied. Right Question is: Is the hard evidence for your claims classified, and has it been altered or removed from the public arena? 2. Where are documents proving your service record or employment history? This is a wrong question since it assumes that documents accurately detailing the work history for employees or military service personnel in classified projects are freely available. This is not the case since security procedures set in place by Project Managers require such records to be altered or removed from the public arena as a condition of service, and/or destroyed subsequent to any unauthorized disclosure of information. Right Question: Are your military service records or employment documents in any way subject to the security procedures enforced by the classified project you worked in? 3. Why should we believe you that you served/worked in a classified project involving EBEs or ET Technologies? This is a wrong question since it assumes that the whistleblower/witness credibility comes from their ability to prove that s/he worked in a highly classified project. There are severe penalties in place for revealing information concerning classified projects that may constrain a whistleblower/witness from disclosing information to confirm their employment or which threaten corroborating witnesses. Emphasis should be on unique factors or details known by the whistleblower which help establish their credibility. It is necessary for the whistleblower to reveal only that which s/he feels is permitted, rather than pressuring them to reveal information that may prejudice their or others safety. Right Question: What helps establish your credibility as someone who served/worked in a classified project involving EBEs or ET technologies?\ 4. Why should we believe you when there are inconsistencies in documents outlining your service record/employment history and the claims you are making? This is a wrong question since it assumes that documents detailing the assignments or work history for military personnel or corporate employees in highly classified projects accurately reflect the assignments/employment of such individuals. This is not the case since security procedures set in place by Project Managers require that no mention is made of the actual training, service or employment of such individuals for the specific tasks/positions in highly classified projects involving EBEs or ET technologies. Right Question: Do documents detailing your service record/employment history accurately record the positions, training and duties you undertook in the classified project? 5. Why should we believe you when no public records exist verifying your alleged education at the universities you claim? This is a wrong question since it ignores the agreements that the 'secret government' has with a number of public education institutions over the enrolment of government sponsored students. The question also ignores that the 'secret government' has the power to remove or alter public records, and intimidate professors or corroborating witnesses concerning particular students. Universities that train or educate personal sponsored to work in highly classified projects involving EBEs and/or ET technologies have agreements whereby students completing degrees do not have these recorded in the same public records as occurs with 'normal students'. Also, those who have completed their higher education in non-government sponsored programs, can still have their records altered or removed from the universities in which they were enrolled in. Right Question: Was a condition of your service/employment that your education record would be removed from the public arena either prior to your employment or subsequent to any unauthorized release of classified information? 6. Why should we believe anything you have to say since there are no independent witnesses to support your claims? This is a wrong question because often whistleblowers/witnesses in highly classified projects are willing to risk their careers, reputations and safety in coming forward. This does not imply that colleagues or other witnesses of classified projects will be willing to do the same. Also, independent witnesses can be threatened or intimidated into silence if a whistleblower gets much exposure as occurred in the Bob Lazar case and his former colleagues at the Meson Particle Facility at Los Alamos Research Laboratory who were threatened if they spoke about the Lazar case. The researcher looking for corroborating witness testimony is likely to be frustrated and reach the wrong conclusions about the validity of a whistleblower's testimony in the absence of corroborating witnesses. It's best to focus on those aspects of a whistleblower's employment or background that don't deal with their work on classified projects, and thus build a case for the whistleblower's claims in terms of their employment background, education, special abilities, etc. Right Question. Are there any witnesses who can corroborate those parts of your testimony that does not deal with classified information? 7. Why should we believe in your conspiracy theory that a 'secret government' exists that controls all information and projects relating to EBE's or ET technologies? This is a wrong question since it assumes that the whistleblower is proposing a conspiracy theory rather than accurately reporting events as s/he has encountered them during his/her military service or employment. Whistleblowers should not be viewed as 'conspiracy theorists' but merely witnesses of an institutionalized system secretly created to deal with extraterrestrial affairs in a highly classified and compartmentalized manner. Whistleblowers often have direct experience of the secret committee system created to control deep black projects concerning EBEs and/or ET technologies. The 'secret government' is a rubric for a committee system that is opaque and unknown to the general public. Right question: What information do you have about the role of an alleged 'secret government' that controls all information and projects relating to EBEs and/or ET technologies? 8. If you are genuinely a whistleblower/witness of classified projects involving EBEs and/or ET technologies, why hasn't your alleged 'secret government' simply eliminated you? This is a wrong question since it assumes that if whistleblowers are correct in their claims of a 'secret government' with virtually unlimited resources to enforce security in classified EBE and/or ET technology projects, then the logical outcome is that whistleblowers will be eliminated if they come forward. This does not logically follow since whistleblowers form a safety valve in the event of a catastrophic breakdown in secrecy concerning the presence of extraterrestrials and their technology. Allowing whistleblowers to come forth while simultaneously discrediting and threatening them in how much they reveal, allows the 'secret government' controlling 'deep black' projects to regulate the amount of information released into the general public and its impact. If a catastrophic breakdown in secrecy occurs, the 'secret government' could claim it permitted the whistleblowers to come forth in order to prepare the general public for full disclosure. This would help protect the legitimacy of the 'secret government' and maintain support for the continuation for most if not all highly classified projects dealing with EBEs and/or ET technologies. Right question: What threats have been made to silence or intimidate you in what you can reveal in your public disclosures? 9. Why should we believe you when members of the scientific community say your claims are not supported by present scientific knowledge? This is a wrong question since it assumes that knowledge possessed by the scientific community is an accurate reflection of technologies that are developed or used in highly classified projects involving EBEs and/or ET technologies. Those responsible for controlling highly classified projects involving EBEs and ET technology have only allowed a limited amount of information concerning technologies used in these projects into the scientific community so present scientific knowledge is an unreliable indicator of the technologies and/or knowledge used in deep black projects. Right question: How much of the information/knowledge used in the classified project you worked/served in is available to the scientific community? 10. Why should we believe that you aren't just another opportunist seeking fame or fortune for their alleged experiences while serving in the military or working for a private corporation? This is a wrong question since it implies that whistleblowers are seeking fame or fortune when the truth is that they often risk financial security as a consequence of their disclosures. Whistleblowers also risk credibility with friends and/or colleagues in coming forward with their claims, and typically shun opportunities to profit from their experiences. It is also highly insulting for a whistleblower to be questioned in this way due to the great financial and personal sacrifices they often undergo to come forward with information which is still classified. Right question: In what way does your coming forward to reveal your testimony threaten your financial livelihood and damage
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:35:40 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:45:58 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:23:58 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:10:28 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:56:55 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>The "history" does indeed have some odd discrepancies. <snip> >>I didn't spot the "odd discrepancies" which you referred to >>above, have they now been corrected as well? >No. My point was simply that by taking only some of the material >from the Official History article, the picture painted of the >Ministry of Defence's early involvement with the UFO mystery was >incomplete. The full Official History article can be accessed at >the following hyperlink, though it is also widely available on >various UFO-related websites: http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm >Although less well known, there is a second part to the Official >History article. Part 2 addresses various questions raised by >ufologists and can be accessed at the following hyperlink: http://www.nickpope.net/official_history_pt_2.htm I was the one pointing out "odd discrepancies" in the history. The way it still reads now is that "publicity campaign" was the cause of Tizard's request to set up the Working Party (also did he "request" or did he order it by direct command authority? if he did not order the Working Party into existence whose authority was responsible for commanding its creation?). But the Working Party minutes and final report and the DSI meeting minutes of Aug. 15, 1950, do not at all refer to any "publicity" as the cause for setting up the Working Party. Instead the final report refers to the "notable outbreak" of sightings in Great Britain. Presumably the RAF sightings and possible radar-visual of June 7 (and maybe Aug. 14), 1950, led Tizard to request the Working Party be set up. If I'm missing some reference to "publicity" somewhere in the official records as the motivating factor please point it out to me. Otherwise the way the history reads now it looks like some sleazy tabloid-type "publicity campaign" in October 1950 led to creation of the Working Party on Aug. 15, 1950. The fuller history not on the MOD website goes to some length in Part 2 to quote the renowned R. V. Jones as "perhaps the best summary of Jones=E2=80=99 view on the UFO issue, and is worth quoting in full." In fact, Jones' position in this July 1968 article was vacillating and perhaps even contradictory and it is unfair and not accurate to just quote Jones' most skeptical debunking points and ignore and fail to quote the more pro-UFO concessions he also made in the same article. For example in the very same July 1968 article R. V. Jones also wrote that the "distinguished" scientist McDonald and the official USAF scientific consultant Hynek both disagreed with the official conclusions dismissing UFO's. Jones did not dispute or disagree with McDonald or Hynek after noting their positions. Jones then noted that there was a residue of about 10% unexplained UFO sightings after official investigations. Then he wrote of this 10% unexplained residue: "A point of dispute is whether, after such errors have been allowed for, there is enough left that is unexplained to make us think that there is a gap in our knowledge either of natural phenomena or of an extraterrestrial invasion of our atmosphere, perhaps by intelligently controlled spacecraft." Then Jones hemmed and hawed, skeptical and open again, saying such pro-UFO things as: "If Earth proves to be the one planet in the Solar system that supports intelligent life, it is still possible that intelligent beings from a more distant system have found the way to cross intervening space in small craft without ageing on the long journey; and, although it is unlikely, it is just possible that the craft are small enough not to have shown up on astronomical or radar surveys." After a few more vacillations Jones remarks on the distinct pro- UFO possibility of an unknown natural phenomenon (before making the skeptical end remarks which were the _only_ ones quoted in the Part 2 history): "If known natural phenomena are insufficient to explain everything that has been genuinely seen, the alternative to the intelligently controlled vehicles is an as yet unrecognized natural phenomenon. This is distinctly possible -- the case may be similar to that of ball lightning, the occurrence of which has long been both asserted and disputed." Another comment in the history that is not accurate is the following: "Another indication of the strong US influence on the Flying Saucer Working Party is the fact that their June 1951 final report was entitled _Unidentified Flying Objects_.=C2 This term had been devised by Ruppelt himself, early in 1951, but was not at the time in use outside US Government circles." Ruppelt was not in charge of Project Grudge until October 22, 1951, and thus could not possibly have "devised" the UFO term in time for the June 1951 Working Party final report. The term "unidentified flying objects" was in lower-case use in US documents as early as 1947. Ruppelt did not start using the abbreviation "UFO" and an upper-cased "Unidentified Flying Objects" phrase until after Project Grudge changed names to Blue Book in March 1952. Who actually originated this new usage and abbreviation is unclear but it is clear that Ruppelt helped
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:47:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:56:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Allan >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> It occurs to me that by lifting the lid on all these 'whistleblowers', and encouraging them to reveal all, Michael Salla is the biggest whistleblower of them all. If, as he suggests, government agents are able to alter or erase the academic and past employment records of these people to destroy their credibility, presumably these agents are at work doing the same to Michael Salla's own credentials. (They would hardly allow him to 'blow the whistle' without taking some action against him). So Dr Salla, are you not in perpetual fear that your PhD thesis, whatever it was about, is at risk from these agents. Could its contents suddenly get altered or erased? Have you checked with your university or other institute that its copy of your thesis still exists? Does your own copy still reside where it should be? Have its contents been 'doctored'? Have you still got proof that you have a PhD at all? You ought to be a deeply worried man. I say this because it seems to me that you are a very severe risk to the dark people in high government who want to suppress all the exopolitics you are desperately trying to publicise.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 15 Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:06:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:03:46 -0400 Subject: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! To: ghosttroop.nul Like Their Counterparts at Wright-Patterson, Langley, and Lackland Air Force Bases, Officials at Andrews AFB Have No Right to Bomb the First Amendment! By Larry W. Bryant Once in a while, a "smoking gun" document does jump into the public domain via the embattled U. S. Freedom of Information Act. This time, that rare event happens to occur at the hand of one USAF Lt. Col. Randy K. Robertson, commander of the 89th Communications Squadron at Andrews AFB, Md. His snail-mail letter to me of May 10, 2005, declares: "We are responding to your 2 Nov 2004 Freedom of Information Act request for all Andrews AFB-generated and all Andrews AFB- received records pertaining to the multi-ad submission with reference to whistleblowers and a copy of the current publishing contract for 'Capital Flyer.' The requested information is releasable and attached. Direct any questions to our FOIA office at (301) 981-4088/5308." Robertson's 1-page printout of several short e-messages exchanged between certain public affairs personnel at Andrews and at higher headquarters reveals the command's bold (but no less shameful) entry into the First Amendment's pond of quicksand called "viewpoint discrimination." The first of these incriminating missives comes from Brad A. Swezey, deputy chief of Andrews's 89th Airlift Wing Public Affairs - addressed, on Oct. 12, 2004, to Master Sergeant Paul A. Fazzini, AMC [Air Materiel Command] newspaper consultant at Scott AFB, Ill.: "Paul, have any other papers run into this [ad submission]? Our inclination is not to run it. Your thoughts?" And, at 11:19 A.M. on Oct. 12, 2004, Paul replies to Brad: "Subject: Re: Ad Review Sir, as I read the headline [of LWB's submitted ad] I'm moved to see right off the bat the ad is anti military. I also did some Google searching to see some other info about Ghost Troop and the information these folks are projecting. The group's message clearly goes against the establishment (DoD). I'd recommend you not run the ad." So, what's _really_ provoked such a self-defeating and indefensible response from officialdom (aka "the establishment") - fear of whistleblowers' exposure of official wrongdoing? Inherent weakness of certain military leaders in granting to, and preserving for, their rank-and-file members the same constitutional protections afforded to civilian society? Their sense that to allow the ad's publication would open the floodgates to other such expression of public-issue speech? Or... all the above? Here's the text of the initial ad that dares offend the sensibilities of the thin-skinned airmen manning the VIP bunker at Andrews (as submitted on Sept. 28, 2004, for publication in the Andrews base newspaper, the "Capital Flyer"): Blow the Whistle on Iraqnam's Battle-of-Baghdad Cover-up! A group of current/former U. S. servicemembers - known as the Ghost Troop (http://geocities.com/onlythecaptain/ ) - has found the "bloody knife" exposing the OFFICIALLY UNRELEASED number of Americans who died during the fierce battle at Iraq's capital in the spring of 2003. That number, of course, dwarfs the officially released count. To help determine the discrepancy's cause/perpetuators/accountability, the group is seeking all related documentary evidence and sworn testimony from all BOBCUP whistleblowers brave enough to come forward. Armed with your accounts, the group can help persuade Congress to exercise its oversight authority in this matter. Contact: Larry W. Bryant at:... At this point, were I the U. S. attorney assigned to represent the defendant in Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al., I'd submit my resignation forthwith - rather than countenance any form of viewpoint discrimination.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:11:40 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:26:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Randle >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:28:53 -1000 >Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:37:10 EDT >>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:07:21 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:55:40 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:06:56 -1000 >>>>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches First, let me apologize for the delay. I had another assignment arise and just had no Internet capability while out of pocket. I am ready to pick up the gauntlet again. ><snip> >>This presupposes that the testimonial evidence from the >>Disclosure Project and the documentary evidence in the MJ-12 >>documents can be trusted. I'm suggesting that neither source can >>be trusted and therefore any reliance on them as a basis to >>argue for a hard cover up is flawed in the beginning. >I don't think it's helpful to use the concept of 'trust' in >order to assess different sources of evidence, especially when >it comes to whistleblowers. What we have are different sources >of evidence which we analyse and rank according to a number of >criteria, eg., whistleblowers, majestic documents, contactees, >witnesses, etc. Some sources will receive a higher ranking than >others and therefore higher degree of consideration. That means >there's a need to be flexible. Using an either-or approch >unnecessarily simplifies the process since it tries to reduce >all sources into two categories that which we 'trust and that >which we 'don't trust'. That's a methodological error and based >on the mistaken emphasis on 'hard evidence'. Rather than engage in semantics here, I'll just change the word trust to reliable. I will instead write, "This presupposes that the testimonial evidence from the Disclosure Project and the documentary evidence in the MJ-12 documents is reliable. I'm suggesting that neither source is reliable and therefore any reliance on them as a basis to argue for a hard cover up is flawed in the beginning." And I have no objection to creating a reliability scale for this alleged evidence of the hard cover up. But the point remains. If the MJ-12 and the Disclosure project are unreliable, or have a low credibility, then using them to support your argument actually weakens it. ><snip> >>I was very interested in those claims, talked to Dean and Stone, >>and even received a letter from Corso's doctor and had >>conversations with Robert Brines, his co-author. I looked for >>corroboration of their tales but found them wanting. It is >>interesting that their lack of proof for their claims is >>considered proof by others. Their records have been altered, >>their documentation has been stolen, and they have been >>intimidated by this vast conspiracy to silence them. >>Interestingly they suggest the government would stop at nothing >>to silence them, and Stone even talks about being taken from his >>home with weapons pointed at him, but he's still alive to make >>his charges" all with no evidence that any of this happen. >I can see your point and agree that this is a major problem for >UFO/exopolitical researchers. When you have well credentialled >individuals coming forth with extraordinary claims with no hard >evidence to back them up, then one can say there's no proof. I'm not even sure you can call some of these individuals "well- credentialled." The claim, by implication, is that anyone with a military record has good credentials. Military service does not convey some sort of extraordinary reliability on an individual. We need something more before we begin to accept so many outrageous claims (and yes, I used the word outrageous here on purpose). >Furthermore, when researchers encounter claims that the 'proof' >has been removed, of intimidation of whistleblowers, of >corroborating witness harassment, etc., having occurred, then >this presents testimonial evidence that a 'hard cover' up is >underway. What evidence do you have that "proof" has been removed? How in the world could you ever prove something like that? In the various records I have seen (Corso and Stone to mention just two) there is no evidence they have been altered. Instead, we have documents that suggest that both men have been less than honest with researchers. But, since their claims are not borne out by the record, you now suggest that those discrepancies are evidence of the hard cover up. I suggest they are evidence that the men are less than honest. >What you have provided is an example of the kind of >testimonial evidence that whistleblowers such as Stone give of >being physically threatened for revealing information. You ask, >where's the physical evidence or proof that Stone was harasssed, >and physical evidence removed? I think it should be clear that >if such a process is occuring, as Stone and other whistleblowers >suggest, such hard evidence will hard to find. Yet we have the >whistleblower's testimony, their credibilty in terms of service >records and responsible positions, and other information they >may provide substantiating both their claims about ETs, and >their claims of being harassed. So, once again, we're required to fall back to the point that their testimony is reliable because of their long service. They need to offer nothing in the way of independent corroboration because such corroboration would be difficult to find, and that the lack of corroboration is, in fact, evidence that they are telling the truth. Talk about a circular argument. >I have made a case that a 'hard cover up' is an underlying >premise that needs to be considered by the UFO researcher. This >is the most logical conclusion of the overwhelming evidence that >the government has initiated a cover up, and secretly >institutionalised a process for dealing with UFO/ET affairs. I >think if you use a polititical science methodology similar to >the social contract theory advocated by John Rawls in a Theory >of Justice, you will find that the end result of a rational >decision making process for a set of rational decision makers is >a secretly institutionalised process for managing ET/UFO affairs >since the underlying premise is that the UFO/ET issues presents >the most dire national security threat confronting the US and >other countries. That's the most logical outcome of a purely >rational process which supports my contention that an a 'hard >cover up' exists. That means that when whistleblowers such as >Stone discuss aspects of the 'hard cover up', physical threats, >etc., then these are consistent with the premise that a 'hard >cover up' is a logical policy response to the ET/UFO presence. >This doesn't prove their claims, but it enables us to seriously >consider them and use them in conducting an exopolitical >analysis, despite the absence of proof. So we argue in a circle again. The fact there is no proof is proof that the cover up exists. No proof can be found because it has been removed. ><snip> >>>Corso begins his book, The Day After Roswell, by clearly stating >>>that he was a Lt-Colonel who headed up the Foreign Technology >>>Desk for a two year period in the 1960s. I don't have access to >>>his military records so I can't confirm or deny what happened >>>upon his retirement and the details of his promotion. ><snip> >>Yes, but he was asked why he was identified as a colonel on the >>cover and rather than saying that his publisher made an error, >>he said that he had been promoted to colonel in the reserve on >>his retirement. Again, there is no evidence this is true. In his >>proposal for his book he identifies himself as a colonel and not >>a lieutenant colonel. >>And even worse, the first line of his book suggests he was the >>chief of the Foreign Technology Division for two years when his >>record shows that it was for only 90 days. I certainly hope you >>aren't going to suggest that someone altered the record by >>reducing his time with the Foreign Technology Division. >>In his proposal, he included some sample chapters including >>something he called a "Precede" in which he writes about his UFO >>experiences, and then signs it, "P.J. Corso, Colonel, USA, Ret." >>Again, he just wasn't a colonel though he represented himself as >>such. >I think his long military service record is the basis of his >credibility, and he rightly claims he was a Lt-Col when he >became chief of the Foreign Technology Division. The absence of >evidence of his promotion from Lt-Col to Col upon retirement is >something that I consider to be a red herring designed to shift >attention from the thrust of his claims concerning his role in >the dissemination of ET technology. Absense of evidence doesn't >mean it didn't happen. First, I believe that inflation of one's credentials, such as claiming a higher rank, is significant. In the recent past people have lost their jobs for claiming positions and education they didn't have. Nearly every week we read about someone who has done just that. Corso did that by claiming to be a colonel when he was a lieutenant colonel. Second, this absence of evidence rule doesn't apply here. It was Corso who made the claim and it is Corso's responsibility to prove it, not mine to disprove it. In some cases absence of evidence is, in fact, evidence of absence. What you are suggesting here is that we ignore a serious claim by Corso that has not been proven to be accurate. You are suggesting that such a claim is of little importance while I suggest that it suggests something about the man's character. >There is also the possibility that his >service record was purposely altered to create some >Inconsistencies - but of course in your ideal world of UFO >scientific research using empirical methods, such Machiavellian >methods don't happen. The real question would be why alter his records about this? There is no purpose in it. Yet, if he was promoted upon retirement, he would have been given such records and there would be photographs of the promotion, yet none exist. All he could offer was a lame excuse about the situation, which, in and of itself is quite telling. ><snip> >>>As far as I'm aware, Corso never claimed to be a member of MJ- >>>12, he just referred to its existence and composition. >>In the proposal for his book he writes, "recounts the continuing >>reports of UFO activity that passed through Eisenhower's White >>House, when the author was on assignment there, to the staff of >>MJ-12." That sounds like a fairly blatant claim that Corso was a >>member of MJ-12" a claim that did not make it into the final >>version of his book. >You have misread what the passage suggests. Corso informed us >that he served on the staff of MJ-12 when he was at the White >House. I think that MJ-12, is similar to a Congressional >Committee, e.g., the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, that >has staffers appointed to serve the Commitee. If one is on >assignment to the staff of a Senate Committee, for example, then >that doesn't make one a Senator, one is just a staff member. You might have missed the point. He claimed he worked for MJ-12. He claimed he was on the staff. While he might not have been one of the twelve, he was making a claim about his association with MJ-12 that was not true. Here is a significant discrepancy that you have decided to ignore with some analogy that doesn't quite work. >>>Corso discussed the circumstances surrounding his use of Strom >>>Thurman foreword in an interview with Michael Lindeman - see: >>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/roswell018.html >>>Corso claims he told Thurman of the UFOs he discussed in his >>>book and that Thurman nevertheless agreed to write the foreword >>>for the Day After Roswell and understood it was about UFOs. It's >>>likely that during his employment service for the former Senator >>>he discretely divulged some of the projects he worked on despite >>>his alleged vow to Lt Gen Trudeau to not go public. Thurman may >>>have written the foreward as a favor to a former close advisor >>>but once his staffers discovered what was in Corso's book, they >>>quickly rescinded permission for the foreword to be used. >>Yet in his proposal letter he said that Thurmond had written a >>glowing introduction to his book "I Walked with Giants: My >>Career in Military Intelligence." That introduction was then >>used for his Roswell book" before Thurmond and his aides >>insisted that it be removed. Switching the story and the >>introductions around does not speak well of Corso. >As I said earlier, Corso spoke to Thurman about UFOs and >Informed him that was the subject of his new book. Just because >Thurman's aides persuaded Thurman to withdraw the preface, >doesn't mean Corso was being disingenous here. No, it is quite clear in his proposal for his book that the introduction written by Thurman was for a different book. Why is there no mention of Roswell or UFOs in that introduction? Why were Thurman and his staff so outraged when they learned the truth, if the Senator knew this in the beginning? It certainly does mean that Corso was being disingenuous here. How many times do we need to find something like this before you begin to think that maybe the guy just wasn't who he claimed to be? >>>As for the veracity of the photos in Corso's books, I don't know >>>where you got your information that they are "well known fakes". >>>There may be considerible controversy about them, but that >>>doesn't make them fakes. I don't know about Kaufman and the >>>incident you are referring to. As for the alleged convoy through >>>Ft Riley, the 'friend' was in fact the sergeant on guard duty >>>and had peered into the contents of the boxes he was guarding. >>>The Sergeant had some time invited Corso to join a bowling team >>>so that was the basis of their relationship. Corso was a Major >>>at the time and the Sergeant an NCO, so it's a bit of a stretch >>>to say he was Corso's friend. >>The picture in his book, labeled, "Lt. Col. Corso was never able >>to confirm the veracity of the following purported UFO >>surveillance photos, which were in Army Intelligence files as >>support material for the R&D project to harvest Roswell Alien >>technology for military purposes." The picture under that >>caption is of a domed disk flying over some hills. Ed Ruppelt >>identified it as a 1935 Ford hubcap. Look magazine, in 1966, >>identified it as a hoax and provided the name of the >>photographer who admitted it was a hoax. Guy B. Marquand, Jr., >>said that he was sorry to disillusion people and that "I was 21 >>years old at the time and just having fun." >I recall being told a story by Wendelle Stevens about George >Adamski responding to Coral Lorenson's abrasive question 'how >did you do it? (fake his flying saucer photos'). Adamski said >that he picked up a hub cap and threw it into the air, and then >took some pictures. Lorenson said 'thanks' and then proceeded to >condemn Adamski as a fraud. He was pulling her leg but she took >him seriously. Corso would undoubtedly have known about the 1966 >Look article and Ruppelt's asssessment of the photo, but still >went ahead to include it in his book. Personally, I'd say if >Corso was suggesting it was real despite the Look article and >Ruppelt's assessment, I'd be inclined to accept Corso's >judgement over someone who alleges to be the photographer >recanting his testimony. It seems you have more faith in a self- >confessed liar "having fun" than the judgement of a former Lt >Col in the US Army. Let me get this straight. We have the editors of LOOK saying the picture is faked? and they have no reason to make that claim unless they believe it. We have Ed Ruppelt claiming it was faked? and we have no reason to suspect his honesty, especially when we look at his record as the Chief of Blue Book. And we have the guy who took the picture saying he faked it. Given all that, you'd rather believe that Corso was right? This I just don't get. And yes, in this case, I have more faith in the photographer, the editors of LOOK and Ed Ruppelt than I have in Corso. (And I won't even mention the background of Wendelle Stevens.) >>It was Kaufmann and Corso on Coast-to-Coast talking about their >>experiences with these highly classified projects, spilling >>their guts for the world. What struck me was that Corso never >>disagreed with Kaufmann in a conflict of points, but always >>bowed to him because Kaufmann claimed to have been on the >>original retrieval. Kaufmann has been found to be a fraud, >>inventing his tale. Seems to me that Corso would have known >>that, had he been who he claimed to be. >I don't know enough about Kaufmann to respond about his >legitimacy as a researcher. I don't see why you would assume >that if Kaufman were a fraud, Corso should have known about it. >Corso left military service in 1963 and apparently ceased to >have a further role in the world of UFOs, crash retrievals. As >far as I can tell, Corso claims to have played a role in >disseminating ET technology, he never claimed to possess >omniscience about UFO researchers and witnesses. Because Corso, is he was who he claimed, he would have seen the holes in the Kaufmann tale. But rather than challenge him, Corso bowed to him. It suggests that Corso had no sort of extraordinary knowledge. >>I read Corso's claim about his friend and understood that Corso >>was a major and the friend a sergeant who had invited Corso to >>bowl with his team. However, it's also a stretch to understand >>how a convoy leaving Roswell would pass close to Ft. Riley on >>its way to Wright Field in Ohio, or how an NCO, a sergeant of >>the guard, would be out among the classified boxes or why he >>would be digging through them. This is a serious breach of >>security, not to mention the fact that the boxes should have >>been in a locked area with guards posted outside it, not inside, >>going through the material. >I think that this was the first time that an EBE had been >shipped by the US Army/Air Force. Their security procedures were >probably lax to begin with, but later amended to the standards >you suggest. Oh, please. Maybe lax. Amended later? They had been dealing with classified material for years. Take out the alien body and put in, oh, I don't know, transport of the Norden Bombsite during World War II and you have the same thing. Transportation of highly classified material over the road. So, the procedures wouldn't have been lax? except in Corso's warped version of the truth. (And yes, I used the word warped on purpose.) >>I suppose it will do no good to point out that the FBI (another >>of those hated government institutions that lie about everyone) >>noted, about Corso, "He has been a thorn in our side because of >>self-initiated rumors, idle gossip and downright lies he has >>spread to more or less perpetuate his own reputation as an >>intelligence expert." >I agree, it doesn't help your case to reference the FBI as a >truthful source for the credibility of Corso. Clearly you don't recognize sarcasm when you read it. Here is just one more assessment that suggests Corso was not only telling tales about his UFO experiences, but he had a history of doing that about a variety of subjects. In those other cases, everyone recognized what he was. In the UFO field, he becomes a "whistleblower" to be acknowledged rather than just one more crank with a wild story. >>Corso claimed in a sworn statement that one of his Army >>assignments had been to the National Security Council during the >>Eisenhower Administration and that he attended NSC meetings. >>Stan Friedman checked with the Eisenhower Library and was told >>that such claims were false. Of course, this is just another >>government agency changing the records. >It's very possible that the Eisenhower Library lacked records to >substantiate Corso's claims. This absence could be explained in >a number of ways, incomplete records, Stan not having access to >the right files, altered records, etc. This doesn't prove that >Corso's claims were false, they just couldn't be substantiated. >I get the sense you are fishing for ways to discredit Corso, and >want to avoid looking at possibilities that migh explain some of >the discrepancies in his testimony. Corso's military credentials >are impressive, he worked as the head of the Army's Foreign >Technology Department, worked as a Congressional Aid to Senator >Thurman, and has made extraordinary claims about ET technology. >I don't see why analysing the (exo)political implications of >Corso's testimony is so strongly resisted by members of the >forum who focus on whatever minor inconsistency they can find in >Corso's military records or statement. It seems you advocate >focusing on the ABC's of UFO research, and don't want to reach >the X,Y,Z, where exopolitical analysis begins. Yeah, the Eisenhower Library lacked the records to substantiate Corso's claim, not because those records were incomplete, but because they never existed in the first place. Here is another significant discrepancy that you choose to ignore by saying maybe, possibly, perhaps, but have no evidence to even begin a simple investigation, other than the word of a man who has been caught several times making false claims. ><snip> >I think your style is similar to a court room attorney who wants >to shift from an examination of substantive issues to witness >credibility. You point out some minor inconsistencies which lead >to your evaluation that the witness is not reliable, and that >their testimony should be discarded. That's a time honored legal >strategy that works well enough in a judicial system that >operates on transparency and legitimate legal processes, but is >seriously inadequate for whistleblower testimonies in a national >security environment where the bulk of hard evidence is >classified, and where there is ample reason to believe a 'hard >cover up' is underway. I have seen no evidence that you are >willing to explore the implications of the whistleblower >testimonies offered by Corso since you offer as the threshold >for such consideration satisfaction of minor inconsistencies >that I and likely many others view to be red herrings. And I have seen no evidence that you will even consider cogent arguments if they don't conform to your already preconceived notions and rigid belief structure. Any evidence to the contrary is dismissed by suggesting my style is similar to a courtroom attorney, as if this is something bad. But the truth is, if someone lied about his credentials, made false claims, and offered no proof for his tales in one arena, then we can expect the same in another. I offer the evidence for this and you simply dismiss it out of hand. <snip> >>Now, we have Stone carrying some with a top secret cover sheet >>through his living room. That is pure showboating because you >>just don't transport top secret material that way. He was attempting, >>through this little show, to prove how important he was. It was >>the same thing, pointing out the sticker on his car and suggesting >>that officers had blue stickers and he had a blue sticker. It was an >>attempt to increase his credibility by suggesting he was something >>that he was not. Neither of these points is trivial, as you suggest. >You are overreaching in your inferences here. An individual's >behavior when dealing with classified material may be influenced >by a range of factors that may account for his behavior. Just >because Stone was handling what he claimed to be classified >material in a way you consider to be cavalier, doesn't mean it >wasn't what he claimed it to be. Whistleblowers by definition >are mavericks who are dissatisfied with rules, procedures and >policies that restrict information on ETs/UFOs. An individual's behavior when dealing with classified material is influenced by the law. If Stone was carrying classified material (meaning top secret) material through his house, then he was going to jail and these hard cover up guys would need to do nothing other than charge him with mishandling classified material. Look what happened to the guy in Los Alamos who they just suspected of mishandling classified material. >As for pointing out to you the color of the sticker on his car, >there may be a number of explanations. Stone may have been >alluding to preferential treatment he was receiving due to his >alleged background. Again, I see the same pattern in your >evaluation of Stone, pointing out minor inconsistencies in his >story and claiming that when you add them all up, he has no >credibility. The implication being that we shouldn't consider >his testimony as anything upon which UFO/Exopolitics researchers >might benefit in understanding alleged crash retrievals. No, Stone was attempting to tell me that he was really an officer, not knowing that I understood the system. This is a significant embellishment that goes to the credibility of the witness. >While I understand that there is a need to scrutinise the >background of whistleblowers in order to assess whether they are >telling the truth, we need to balance this scrutinity with an >appreciation of the significance of their claims and the >likelihood that they may be subject to various forms of >harassment, discrediting, etc., from the 'hard cover up'. There >is for example the case of an independent Canadian researcher >who was threatened for covering Stone's story, and arranging for >documents Stone forwarded to be circulated in Canada (see >http://www.rense.com/ufo6/terrorist.htm). That is corroboration >that Stone had information that went far beyond what a typist or >clerical administrator would have after a 22 year service record >as you have suggested, and helps establish his credibility as a >whistleblower revealing information on crash retreivals. I think >your evaluation of Stone is unbalanced and ignores evidence that >he is being subjected to harassment, threats, and discrediting. >This makes your focus on inconsistencies in his service record, >behavior and testimony questionable. I looked at the story and it is, once again, allegations with no sort of evidence. I can point you to any number of people who believe what Stone said, but none of them can offer any evidence that it is true. ><snip> >>Why would Dean be on an intelligence briefing team? He had no >>special training for that. His records show that from mid-1963 >>to mid-1967 he was at NATO as a master sergeant assigned as the >>Chief Clerk Language Service Branch which is hardly the same as >>being an intelligence analyst, a position for which he was not >>trained. His record shows no assignments as an intelligence >>analyst. There is nothing classified about the general training, >>and in fact, for those who have access to the Army's Distance >>Learning Training Facility (meaning it's on-line), training for >>an intelligence analyst is available. So, if Dean's claim was >>accurate, the training would be in his record, but if the >>assignment was classified, it would show a generic assignment. >Dean claims that he received a "Cosmic Top Secret" clearance >while serving on the briefing team for the SACEUR. "Cosmic" is a >security classification that likely refers to a >compartmentalised program set up by the US Army and NATO to deal >with UFO/ET related matters. No, it doesn't. It is a NATO classification that distinguishes it from top secret material originated in other locations. It suggests nothing about UFO/ET matters. >It would be reasonable to conclude >that someone receiving such a "Cosmic" classification and having >access to the documents requiring that classification would have >their service record not include the specialized training >required for the performance of their duties. No it wouldn't. There is nothing about the training that would demand that it be hidden. As I have tried to explain, the training is of a generic nature that provides no clues as to specific assignments, especially when those assignments might be classified. A Special Forces soldier will have his record show that training, even if he is then assigned to a clandestine operation. If a soldier makes a claim about such a clandestine operation, but there is no training on his record, then his claim should be suspect. >That would help >ensure operational security and guard against potential >whistleblowers. His military record, as you say, may not include >the specialized training he required to be an intelligence >analyst, but this was likely due to the nature of his >appointment and the security classification it required. I think >your assumption of transparency in military records when it >comes to the true nature of the classified assignments and >training of servicemen is mistaken. >>I didn't say that The Assessment was a hoax designed to keep >>people awake. I said that Dean claimed in Roswell that he was on >>duty at 2 in the morning in NATO's War Room and was having >>trouble staying awake. Then, in a colossal breach of security, >>"an Air Force bird colonel thumped it down on my desk" In an >>interview published in the winter 1995-96 issue of UFO Update AZ >>magazine, Dean went a little farther saying, "this Air Force >>controller, a bird colonel" pulled this thing out of the vault >>and he said, =C3=A2?~Here, read this.' This will wake you up." >>So, in this version, the document was completed, in the vault, >>and was given to Dean by an Air Force officer who wanted him to >>stay awake. A very cavalier way to treat top secret material. >>I am surprised that (a) the vault was opened that late at night, >>(b) the Air Force colonel could just waltz in and remove >>whatever he wanted, and (c) he would gave this thing to a master >>sergeant for late night and exciting reading. >>So, according to Dean here, and to Dean's assignment at NATO, he >>had no need-to-know. >OK, so you are not saying that the Assessment is a hoax, but >that the commanding officer nonchalently threw a copy Dean's way >to keep him awake. So the implications are that either the >commanding officer was conducting a massive breach of security >(unlikely); or that the Assessment was a hoax (you claim not to >be saying this); or that you have mistakenly contextualized the >process by which Dean was given access to the Assemement. Of the >three, I think the third implication is more accurate. No, I said it wasn't a hoax designed to keep people awake. And I agree that we wouldn't have an officer cavalierly giving Dean a copy to read to keep him awake (Dean's claim on more than one occasion). Actually the most likely scenario here is that Dean invented The Assessment and no such document exists. But you keep making allegations but offer no evidence to support these allegations. In the real world we find that sort of evidence because no matter how good the agency is that wants to destroy evidence, they can never get it all. There are ways to prove the truth, which is why we are able to prove some of the things we can. But you have an omniscient organization out there that can find and destroy every shred of evidence to prove the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:05:44 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:50:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:23:39 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:04:27 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:18:36 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction >>>Fear >>>Now, I wish to come back to the possible influence of SF and >>>UFO stories. ><snip> >>Since this topic has been lingering for a couple of weeks, I >>thought it might be worth my chipping in to add a few references >>for anyone interested in looking into any of these aspects in >>more detail. >>First off, as you may know, the Martin Kottmeyer article you >>mention is available on the Magonia website at the link below: >>http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/entirelymk.html >Thank you for the link. I have read the Kottmayer article with >interest, and I would have many comments to say about it. But I >am just going to come back on some of the SF films which would >be a source of the UFO abduction "lore", according to him, and >other authors such as Kevin Randle. Well, the case seems more >and more dubious to me. >Notes on some films cited by Martin Kottmeyer in his paper >"Entirely Unpredisposed: the Cultural Background of UFO >Abductions reports", and by Kevin Randle et al. in their book >"The Abduction Enigma". The following comments are also drawn >from the "Internet Movie Database Entry", referred to by >Kottmeyer himself, and from some books about SF movies. <snip> The point has never been that Betty Hill, or abductees in general pulled the experience from specific science fiction films (some of them incredibly bad like Killers From Space), but contrary to the accepted comment that "there are no sci fi gods or demons" from which they could have pulled these, such cultural context does exist. We have already seen a list of some of those films in which abduction, implants, mystery scares, big-eyed aliens, missing time, and many other features of the abduction phenomenon exists. No, not all elements are featured in each of the films, but many are. And we must not forget the Twilight Zone episode "Hocus Pocus and Frisby" in which aliens abduct Andy Devine - aliens whose nearly flat featured face and almond- shaped eyes bears some resemblance to aliens described today (and to my thinking, are closer to what Barney Hill described that the aliens in the Bellaro Shield). So, the point is, these descriptions and stories existed in the cultural make up of society before there were reports of alien abduction. This proves nothing one way or another, only the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:06:55 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:56:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:06:12 -0400 >Subject: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >To: ghosttroop.nul Larry, Errol, List, All, I find this highly inflammatory, biased, and more importantly, that it has nothing to do with UFOs! >Like Their Counterparts at Wright-Patterson, Langley, and >Lackland Air Force Bases, Officials at Andrews AFB Have No Right >to Bomb the First Amendment! >By Larry W. Bryant <snip> >A group of current/former U. S. servicemembers - known as the >Ghost Troop (http://geocities.com/onlythecaptain/ ) - has found >the "bloody knife" exposing the OFFICIALLY UNRELEASED number of >Americans who died during the fierce battle at Iraq's capital in >the spring of 2003. That number, of course, dwarfs the >officially released count. To help determine the discrepancy's >cause/perpetuators/accountability, the group is seeking all >related documentary evidence and sworn testimony from all BOBCUP >whistleblowers brave enough to come forward. Armed with your >accounts, the group can help persuade Congress to exercise its >oversight authority in this matter. Contact: Larry W. Bryant >at:... >At this point, were I the U. S. attorney assigned to represent >the defendant in Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al., I'd submit my >resignation forthwith - rather than countenance any form of >viewpoint discrimination. >What's worse for Amerika: being "anti-military," or being >anti-First Amendment? This is not a First Amendment issue. The base newspaper is the commander's instrument for communication with the soldiers. It operates under many of the same restrictions that a civilian newspaper uses, but the commander is the publisher. Just as civilian newspapers have the right to reject advertising they find offensive, so does the base newspaper. We have all heard stories that one network decided not to run an ad that another found acceptable. No one retreated to First Amendment arguments at that time. Second, that ad is anti-military, especially after you read the allegations raised on the web page that Bryant provides for us. There certainly is no obligation for the base newspaper to run an ad with that "spin" in it. (Even without the additional information, the ad certainly seems to be anti-military.) Finally, I notice that the man Bryant cites by pointing us to the web site was not in Baghdad. His allegations are so much speculation. However, I spent a great deal of time on the Baghdad International Airport (known to the soldiers as BIAP) and I saw nothing to support these claims of huge American casualties. (I wonder here if the term casualties isn't confused! It means wounded and missing as well as killed.) I had the opportunity to review a great deal of information (some of it classified) about the battle of Baghdad, and is simply does not bear out these allegations.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 The Great British UFO Show 2005 From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:04:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:18:50 -0400 Subject: The Great British UFO Show 2005 The Great British UFO Show is a full day event held in Leeds on the 1st October 2005. Leeds has played host to many fine UFO Conferences over the last two decades but since the sudden passing of Graham W. Birdsall in September 2003 there has been no event. When UFO Magazine closed in February 2004 the UFO community at large lost a welcome fix of News, views and information. After a nine month period myself and colleagues wanted to keep the loyal readers of the magazine informed with the latest happenings in the subject and www.ufodata.co.uk was born, along with our sister site: www.ufo-uk-forums.co.uk Our aim is simple to share the mountain of information that exists has to the reality of the UFO phenomenon. Over the last ten years I have been privileged to present the subject to audiences around the world, I have listened to PhDs, scientists, Military, Police, experiencers and abductees tell their very personal accounts to audiences varying in number from 20 to 1200. There are those out there who merely seek attention and self adulation by presenting fabricated bunkum to audiences who have paid for the privilege, but these are outnumbered ten fold by genuine and honest people who merely wish to share the truth with like-minded people. This event will present a UK point of view with a line up of UK speakers... The Venue: The city of Leeds is home to Headingley stadium, where Test and county cricket, World Championship Rugby League and Zurich Rugby Union are played. It is the Headingley complex that will play host to The Great British UFO Show in October. The event will be staged in the Leeds Rugby supporters club, an entertainment venue that seats 200 people, the venue is licensed and there will be bar facilities available from 12 noon onwards, making for a comfortable and informal atmosphere with no numb bottoms. Within the complex is Headingley Lodge a thirty six room Premier Lodge with great value rooms all overlooking the famous Headingley Test ground. If you wish to book a room do it now, the town of Headingley is only five minutes away from the venue with food, drink and accommodation a plenty. Philip Mantle Author and lecturer, Philip is well known for his association with the Infamous �Santili Footage�. In this presentation though Philip concentrates on UK Abduction cases. Check out this link: www.beyond roswell.com MALCOLM ROBINSON (SPI) Malcolm is a font of knowledge when it comes to UFO and alien encounters. He presents a fully illustrated and entertaining lecture. Check out this link: www.spiuk.net John Hanson Retired Police officer (27 years service) John Hanson has quietly and diligently been about his UFO research since investigating a colleagues sighting in 1995. He has a fascination with Rendlesham Fores and has witnessed many strange events during visits there with his friend and original investigator of the 1980 incident Brenda Butler. Chris Martin Chris is well known to the UFO community, he has lectured in both the USA and Australia as well as here in the UK. He is probably best known for some of the amazing footage he captured on film in and around London. Abducted Ann and Paul Andrews grew up in South East London, living a normal life until the birth of their son Jason. Having presented their story to world in Laughlin it is now the turn of a UK audience to share this amazing story in Ann and Jason's own words..... UFO Footage with Russel Callaghan Open Mike Session Vendor Tables Doors Open 09:30 Presentations Start 10:00 Close 18:00
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 100 Most Influential People in Ufology Today From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:50:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:50:43 -0400 Subject: 100 Most Influential People in Ufology Today =09 Source: Fate Magazine's 2005 UFO Special http://www.fatemag.com/2005_UFOSpecial_Top100.html =09 The 100 Most Influential People in Ufology Today By FATE Magazine Dan Akroyd, actor, has a long-held fascination with UFO phenomena, and was named as MUFON's official Hollywood Consultant in 2004. In a recent interview about his newly bestowed title, Akroyd commented, "There's footage (on MUFONs website) of some of the stuff that we're getting out of California, some objects that are very credible." His fame, influence, and public pro-UFO comments easily land him a spot on Fate's 100 Most Important People in Ufology list. Jan Aldrich is the coordinator of PROJECT 1947, a worldwide effort to document the origins of the modern UFO phenomenon. Aldrich's project has compiled a massive amount of data ranging from government documents, newspaper stories, magazine clippings, and other documents. Much of the material gathered by PROJECT 1947 is on display at their website www.project1947.com. Stephen Bassett is the United States' only congressional UFO lobbyist. He is the founder of the Paradigm Research Group and Executive Director of the Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-PPAC). Bassett also runs the popular Paradigm Clock website and is a frequent guest on radio talk shows around the country. In 2002, he ran as an independent in the congressional campaign for the 8th District of Maryland. Bassett's annual X-Conference in Washington, D.C., is widely regarded as one of the most important annual gatherings of ufologists in the United States. Timothy Green Beckley, "Mr. UFO," is a prolific author and publisher of UFO books, and the force behind the popular website www.conspiracyjournal.com. Beckley's take on UFOs? "Some UFOs may be interplanetary craft, but the majority have to be placed in some other category. During radio and TV interviews the host always asks about my opinion on UFOs. I always tell him it doesn't matter what my opinion is, UFOs act independently of my beliefs or anyone else's!" Art Bell. When it comes to influential people in contemporary ufology, this late-night talk show host finds himself near the top of the heap. From his one-man broadcasting center in Pahrump, Nevada, Bell hosts the weekend edition of Coast to Coast AM, one of the most successful overnight talk radio shows in history. The creator and original weeknight host of Coast to Coast AM, Art Bell made the show wildly popular around the world, exploring such topics as UFOs, remote viewing, crop circles, cattle mutilations, conspiracy theories, and more. Bell retired from the show he made famous in 2000, but eventually returned in 2003 to become Coast's weekend host. Don Berliner serves as chairman of the Fund for UFO Research and is co-author of the recent book Crash at Corona, along with fellow ufologist Stanton Friedman. He is the author of numerous books and articles on aviation. William Birnes is a best-selling author (The Day After Roswell), a New York literary publishing agent who has written and edited more than 25 books and encyclopedias, and publisher of UFO Magazine. Greg Bishop is the editor of The Excluded Middle, a quarterly publication that brings readers articles on UFOs and general Fortean topics. His work has also appeared in UFO Magazine, Magical Blend, and Fortean Times. Bishop's latest book is Project Beta: The Story of Paul Bennewitz, National Security, and the Creation of a Modern UFO Myth. Errol Bruce-Knapp has worked in broadcast media for over 45 years and is the host of Strange Days Indeed, a Toronto, Ontario, UFO radio show. He's been intrigued by UFOs for many years and got involved, on an almost full-time basis, in 1993 when he got his first computer and joined the Ontario chapter of MUFON. His website, www.virtuallystrange.net, is the online meeting place of choice for many of today's top ufologists. Larry Bryant operates the Washington, D.C., office of the UFO group Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS). Recently retired after a 36-year career in writing and editing for U. S. Army publications, Bryant says, "My government career paralleled my ufological pursuits; not always amicably. That certainly related to my having filed more UFO-related lawsuits in federal court than has anyone else in the entire universe." Bryant's UFO beliefs fall into the traditional "UFOs as mechanical craft created by extraterrestrial biological entities" category. He says, "If the hard-core evidence of UFO reality (i.e., =91some UFOs represent somebody else's spaceships') were to be weighed by a grand jury, I have little doubt that an indictment would be handed down, an indictment shaming and rebuking the high priests of Scientism." Grant Cameron is one of Canada's leading ufologists. He has studied and written extensively about Wilbert Smith, head of the Canadian government's UFO investigation, Project Magnet. His most recent research involves U.S. presidents and UFOs. Cameron is, perhaps, most famous for a question he posed to U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney about UFOs on a live radio show in 2001: "Have you ever been briefed on the subject of UFOs, and if you have, when was it and what were you told?" Cheney replied, jokingly, and semi-mysteriously, "Well, if I had been briefed on it, I'm sure it was probably classified and I couldn't talk about it." Mark Carlotto, professional imaging expert, is one of the foremost investigators of Martian anomalies, having written numerous books, articles, analyses, and peer-reviewed papers on the subject. Carlotto currently serves as editor-in-chief of New Frontiers in Science, an online journal that examines unexplained and controversial phenomena. Jerome Clark is a former editor-in-chief of Fate, former vice- president and current board member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, editor of the quarterly publication The International UFO Reporter, and author of reams of UFO articles, papers, reviews, and books. His three-volume UFO Encyclopedia encompasses nearly every conceivable aspect of the UFO phenomena and is widely considered a classic. Dwight Connelly has been editor of the MUFON UFO Journal since 1997 and is the editor of The World's Best UFO Cases, one of the best UFO titles in print. Scott Corrales is the editor of Inexplicata: The Journal of Hispanic Ufology, and of course, a frequent contributor to Fate. Corrales' work in illuminating UFO reports out of Latin America has been invaluable to the field of ufology. Many of today's best UFO reports are coming from this corner of the globe, and without his important reporting, many of these sightings would likely go unnoticed in the English-speaking world of North American ufology. Peter Davenport is among the most important people in ufology today. Since 1994, he has been director of the National UFO Reporting Center (NUFORC), which takes daily UFO reports from across North America. Davenport reports on many of the UFO sightings NUFORC receives as a regular guest on Sightings with Jeff Rense and Coast to Coast AM, as well as during lectures and presentations at annual UFO conferences. In addition to being the director of NUFORC, Davenport has served as the director of investigations for the Washington Chapter of MUFON. Davenport has a lengthy and impressive resume, including work experience as a college instructor, a commercial fisherman, a Russian translator in the Soviet Union, a fisheries observer, and a flight instructor, and political experience as a candidate for the Washington State legislature and the U.S. House of Representatives. Davenport's recent work involving passive-radar techniques to detect UFOs may take ufology in an important new direction in coming years. Paul Davids is a major Hollywood player when it comes to extraterrestrial phenomena. He was executive producer and co- writer of the Showtime film Roswell, starring Martin Sheen and Kyle MacLachlan, which was nominated for a Golden Globe as Best Television Motion Picture of 1994. Davids is a frequent speaker at many annual UFO events and has been an active proponent of ufology since his own UFO sighting in 1987. Lisa Davis has succeeded Jim Moseley as chair of the annual National UFO Conference (NUFOC). Davis has been researching UFO and abduction phenomena for nearly a decade. In 2003, she formed The Foundation For Abduction Research And Support (FFARS) to educate, support, and empower individuals unwillingly involved in the abduction experience. Preston Dennett is a California-based field investigator for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON). He has had more than 70 articles published in most of the major UFO publications, including Fate and the MUFON UFO Journal. He is the author of UFO Healings, One in Forty: The UFO Epidemic, Extraterrestrial Visitations, and UFOs Over Topanga Canyon. Richard Dolan, a relative newcomer to ufology, has made a major mark with his first book UFOs and the National Security State, hailed as one of the best UFO titles to hit the market in years when it was released in 2000. Dolan became interested in the UFO problem in 1994, approaching it from the standpoint of his academic training in history and politics. He was intrigued by the fact that mainstream and academic culture continued to treat UFOs as amusement, but that so many intelligent people privately had taken it seriously. Dolan is currently working on the much anticipated follow-up to his first book. Ann Druffel began investigating UFO reports in southern California in 1957 as a member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP). In 1970, she joined MUFON and the then newly-formed Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS). Druffel has personally researched over 2,000 Los Angeles Basin UFO reports through the years. As a writer, she has contributed over 180 articles on various aspects of the UFO enigma to numerous UFO journals and magazines and she has also written books, including How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abuctions, and her latest, Firestorm, a biography of scientist and UFO researcher Dr. James McDonald. Don and Vicki Ecker are the husband and wife team behind UFO Magazine, a bi-monthly publication dedicated to bring readers the best in all things UFO-related. Don has been the director of research for UFO Magazine since 1988. Vicki is the magazine's editor-in-chief. A retired law enforcement officer, Don Ecker broke the STS-48 space shuttle UFO encounter on NBC and CNN. During the 1990's he wrote the "Whistleblower" series for UFO Magazine detailing the stories of John Lear, Bob Lazar, and Bill Cooper. Together, Don and Vicki Ecker have put a skeptical but honest eye on the UFO subject through their magazine. Both appear at UFO conferences around the world on a regular basis. Lou Farish runs the UFO Newsclipping Service, which produces a monthly newsletter of UFO stories that have appeared in newspapers around the world. Farish's newsletter is an invaluable source of credible UFO reports. In addition, he is the organizer of the annual Ozark UFO Conference, held in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. George Filer, East Coast director of MUFON, is the man behind "Filer's Files," a weekly roundup of UFO reports from around the world. "Filer's Files" appears in the MUFON UFO Journal as well as on the Internet and is required reading for anyone interested in the subject. Raymond Fowler has worked for decades on the UFO phenomenon, and his contributions to ufology are respected by researchers throughout the world. Fowler's background includes a tour with the U.S. Air Force Security Service and 25 years with GTE Government Systems. His UFO investigation reports have been published in congressional hearings, military publications, newspapers, magazines, and professional journals in the United States and abroad. Fowler has served as chairman of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) Massachusetts Subcommittee, as an early warning coordinator for the USAF-contracted UFO Study at the University of Colorado, as a scientific associate for the Center for UFO Study, and as director of investigations on the MUFON board of directors. His books include, UFOs: Interplanetary Visitors, The Andreasson Affair, Casebook of a UFO Investigator, The Watchers, The Allagash Abductions, and The Andreasson Legacy. Stanton Friedman, longtime UFO researcher, author, and lecturer, is in the upper echelon of today's UFO field. Friedman was employed for 14 years as a nuclear physicist for companies such as GE, GM, Westinghouse, TRW Systems, Aerojet General Nucleonics, and McDonnell Douglas. Since 1967, he has lectured on the topic "Flying Saucers ARE Real!" more than 600 times in 50 states, 9 provinces, and 13 other countries. He is the author of Crash at Corona and Top Secret/MAJIC, and has published more than 80 UFO papers and articles. He has provided written testimony to the U.S. Congress and has appeared twice at the United Nations. In 2002, Friedman was presented with a Lifetime Achievement Award in Leeds, England, by UFO Magazine (UK). Friedman believes that UFOs are alien spacecraft, that the subject of flying saucers represents a "Cosmic Watergate," and that none of the anti-UFO arguments made by skeptics stand up to careful scrutiny. "We are dealing with the biggest story of the past millennium: visits to Earth by alien spacecraft and the successful cover-up by our governments." Lou Gentile is the host of The Lou Gentile Show, a nighttime paranormal talk radio show based in Philadelphia and heard on 36 stations across the country. Gentile has been featured on TV's Sightings, In Search Of, Unsolved Mysteries, The Discovery Channel, The Learning Channel, and others. Frequent guests on his show include many of ufology's best and brightest: Whitley Strieber, Stanton Friedman, Brian Vike, Kevin Randle, and more. AJ Gevaerd is the Editor of Revista UFO magazine, founder and director of the Brazilian Center for Flying Saucer Research (CBPDV), and Brazilian director for MUFON. He has been a UFO field investigator for three decades, personally carrying out close to 1,000 investigations. Respected as a national and international lecturer, Gevaerd has spoken in dozens of cities in his country and in other 29 countries around the world. Timothy Good, author of the UFO classic Above Top Secret, has conducted worldwide research on the UFO phenomenon spanning more than 20 years. He has lectured at universities, schools, and many other organizations, and has even been invited for discussions at the Pentagon in 1998, and at the headquarters of the French Air Force in 2002. He has also acted as a consultant for several congressional investigations. After years of research, Good has concluded that UFOs are piloted by extraterrestrial entities and that there is a worldwide cover-up of UFO evidence underway by the intelligence communities of virtually every government on Earth. Timothy Good has written a large number of books on the UFO phenomenon, including the aforementioned Above Top Secret as well as Unearthly Disclosure, Alien Base, and Alien Liaisons. Stan Gordon has been conducting on-scene investigations of mysterious phenomena in Pennsylvania since 1965. Gordon was the founder and director of the Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained (PASU) and founder of the Westmoreland County UFO Study Group, which later became the Pennsylvania Center for UFO Research. Gordon also served as the Pennsylvania state director of MUFON for many years and in 1978, he became the first recipient of the annual MUFON Meritorious Achievement in a UFO Investigation award. He has written numerous articles on the unexplained covering topics from UFOs to cryptozoology in such publications as Skylook, the MUFON UFO Journal, Pursuit, and The Gate. Gordon's most prominent UFO research involves the Kecksburg, Pennsylvania, UFO case. In 1998, he released a video documentary on the case called, "Kecksburg: The Untold Story." His work on the Kecksburg UFO case was also featured in the Sci- Fi Channel's recent documentaries, "The New Roswell: Kecksburg Exposed" and "The Kecksburg UFO: New Evidence." John Greenewald broke into the UFO scene as a child prodigy when he was featured in Whitley Strieber's primetime NBC special "Confirmation" in 1998. Now a seasoned UFO researcher, Greenewald runs the website www.blackvault.com, which is among the most popular UFO sites in the world. Within its pages, visitors can find thousands of previously classified government documents relating to UFOs which Greenewald has obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. He has written a regular column for UFO Magazine, as well as articles for Fate and the book Beyond UFO Secrecy. Greenewald is a presenter and lecturer at many annual UFO events around the United States. Steven Greer is the founder and international director of the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI). Dr. Greer is also an emergency physician and former chairman of emergency medicine at Caldwell Memorial Hospital. As director of CSETI, he has met with and provided briefings for senior members of government, military and intelligence operations in the United States, including senior CIA officials, joint chiefs of staff, White House staff, senior members of congress and congressional committees, senior United Nations leadership and diplomats, senior military officials in the United Kingdom and Europe, and cabinet-level members of the Japanese government. On May 9, 2001, Greer's Disclosure Project held a press briefing at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., at which more than 20 military, intelligence, government, corporate, and scientific witnesses came forward to establish the reality of UFOs, extraterrestrial life forms, and resulting advanced energy and propulsion technologies. Richard Haines, co-founder of the new UFO organization National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena (NARCAP), worked at NASA for 37 years as a research scientist in numerous projects, including Gemini, Apollo, Skylab, and the Space Station. His interest in UFO phenomena spans over 30 years, with special focus on sightings by pilots. He has catalogued more than 3,400 aviation-related cases of unidentified aerial phenomena. Unlike many of today's ufologists, Haines has not yet settled on the extraterrestrial hypothesis as the most likely explanation for the UFO mystery. The disclaimer on NARCAP's website makes this point clear: "NARCAP is aware of an intense debate regarding the existence, nature and source of so-called =91UFOs.' NARCAP Technical Reports and documentation have been used by various =91UFO' groups to promote their theories and opinions regarding the existence of =91alien spacecraft' and =91extraterrestrials.' NARCAP does not endorse any of these claims nor does it encourage this use of its material." Leah Haley is among the most credible of all abductees. She is the author of Lost Was The Key, a first-person account of her memories of abductions by what appeared to be both alien beings and military and government personnel. She has been featured on both television and radio across the country, and frequently gives presentations at annual UFO events. Leah is also the author of Ceto's New Friends (1994), In Heaven (1997), Unlocking Alien Closets (2003), and numerous magazine articles. Richard Hall is a U.S. Air Force veteran and one of the earliest members of the famed UFO group NICAP. Hall also served as chairman of the Fund for UFO Research from 1993 to 1998. He is the author of several books, including the all-time classics The UFO Evidence and The UFO Evidence, Vol. II. In recent years, Hall has been an outspoken critic of the current state of ufology, resigning from MUFON in protest in 2001. Hall once summed up his feelings during a Computer UFO Network interview: "Ufology mainly is a bunch of amateurs working in their spare time on a problem that would baffle senior scientists (if they ever paid attention) and require tremendous resources if we ever hope to learn what is going on. Our goals should be to increase our professionalism, focus on careful documentation of evidence, educate the public, and promote serious interest among scientists and other important persons whose skills or resources are necessary for a resolution of the problem. (That includes weeding out nonsense from the field.)" Terry Hansen is a former magazine editor and now an independent journalist with a special interest in scientific controversies and the politics of knowledge. He has followed the UFO controversy for much of his life and has written about it for a variety of media. He is author of the book The Missing Times: News Media Complicity in the UFO Cover-up. He also organized and moderated two symposiums on "The Science and Politics of UFO Research" for the Science Museum of Minnesota in St. Paul. Larry Hatch runs one of the Internet's largest and most important UFO databases at his website www.larryhatch.net. His "U Database" contains dozens of maps highlighting UFO sightings throughout the years. Hatch's years of hard work on the database have produced an invaluable resource for ufologists. Michael Heiser, a Ph.D. scholar in the field of the Hebrew Bible and ancient Semitic languages, has done translation work in over a dozen ancient languages and dialects, including biblical Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Syriac. Since publishing The Facade, a work of UFO fiction, Heiser has spoken at the Bay Area UFO Conference, the Ancient of Days Conference, and the X-Conference. Heiser is a frequent guest on Coast to Coast AM and other radio programs. His website is www.michaelsheiser.com. Michael Hesemann is a historian, an internationally published author, an award-winning documentarist, and an investigative journalist. A German resident, he published and edited Magazine 2000, Europe's largest circulation magazine on mysteries of the past and present, for two decades. He is an associate member of the Society for Scientific Exploration and has been honored with the Hungarian Colman von Keviczky Medal for his research on the UFO phenomenon. Hesemann was among the first Western researchers to publish and write about the KGB files on anomalous aerial phenomena. He is a regular guest on several radio shows in the United States and Mexico, including Dreamland and 21st Century Radio. Hesemann's books include The Cosmic Connections, Beyond Roswell, and UFOs: The Secret History. Bob Hieronimus is an award-winning artist and host of 21st Century Radio, a syndicated talk radio show based in Baltimore, Maryland, which covers UFO-related topics on a regular basis. Richard Hoagland is a former NASA consultant and former science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News. For over two decades, he has been leading a scientific team in an independent analysis of possible intelligently-designed artifacts on the surface of Mars. He is the author of The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever and gives frequent lectures at universities and UFO events across the country. Budd Hopkins is the founder of the Intruders Foundation, an organization devoted to research and public education concerning the UFO abduction phenomenon. To date, Hopkins has investigated nearly 1,000 abduction cases. His books include the groundbreaking Missing Time, as well as Intruders and Witnessed. Linda Moulton Howe is an investigative reporter for the talk radio shows Coast to Coast AM and Dreamland and editor of the website www.earthfiles.com. She has traveled worldwide researching and reporting on strange phenomena. Her books include An Alien Harvest, Glimpses of Other Realities, and Mysterious Lights and Crop Circles. She is a regular speaker at national and international conferences and symposiums concerning UFOs and related phenomena. J. Antonio Huneeus, a Chilean-American science journalist, is considered one of the world's top experts on UFOs. He served for many years as international coordinator for MUFON. Huneeus was selected by Laurance S. Rockefeller to co-author a report on the best available UFO evidence that was later sent to members of the United States Congress. He has covered the UFO field for more than a quarter century, his articles having appeared in a variety of newspapers, magazines and journals throughout the world, including Mundo Desconocido in Spain, Phenomena in France, Magazine 2000 in Germany, Planeta in Brazil, Borderland and Super Science in Japan, Anomalia in Russia, and Fate in the United States. He received the Ufologist of the Year award at the National UFO Conference in Miami Beach in 1990, the 1991 annual award of the New York Fortean Society, and the Colman von Keviczky medal in 2000, awarded by UFO Magazine in Budapest, Hungary. Patrick Huyghe is editor-in-chief of Paraview Pocket Books and editor of The Anomalist, a popular website dealing with all things strange and unknown in the news. Huyghe has written for dozens of magazines, including The New York Times Magazine, Discover, Psychology Today, and Reader's Digest. His books include The Field Guide to Extraterrestrials and Swamp Gas Times. David Jacobs is an associate professor of history at Temple University, specializing in 20th-century American history and culture. Dr. Jacobs began researching unidentified flying objects in America in the mid-1960s and has amassed over 35 years of primary research data and analytical hypotheses on the subject. He has written and delivered many articles, papers, and addresses on the subject of UFO abductions, his primary area of research. Jacobs' books include Secret Life and The Threat. Leslie Kean is an investigative journalist and director of investigations for the Coalition for Freedom of Information www.freedomofinfo.org, a newly-formed UFO organization working toward achieving scientific, congressional, and media credibility for the study of unexplained aerial phenomena. Along with director Ed Rothschild, Kean is keeping the heat on government officials to secure the release of official information and physical evidence currently being withheld from the public. John Keel, perhaps best known by the general public for his connection to The Mothman Prophecies, has been a researcher into strange phenomena for many years. He is the author of numerous books on the unexplained, including Our Haunted Planet, The Eighth Tower, and Disneyland of the Gods. He appears to believe that UFOs are not extraterrestrial and has half-playfully advanced the theory of "ultraterrestrials"=97unknown beings who share this planet with us and continually baffle us for their own amusement. Colm Kelleher is a biochemist with a 20-year research career in cell and molecular biology. He is best known in the UFO community for his work with the National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS), a private research institute using forensic science methodology to unravel scientific anomalies. Dr. Kelleher has authored 38 peer-reviewed publications, as well as articles in popular magazines such as Omni. Lynn Kitei. During the evening hours of March 13, 1997, thousands of Arizona residents witnessed a mile-long, V-shaped formation of lights in the skies overhead. The UFO sightings garnered headline news across the entire media spectrum. Dr. Lynne Kitei had been witnessing and documenting the Phoenix Lights for months before this mass sighting occurred, taking hours worth of video and dozens of pictures. Her recent book, The Phoenix Lights, is an exhaustively researched look at the phenomenon, including dozens of astonishing photographs and Kitei's own take on the wider implications of this still unexplained UFO event. Phil Klass is the original UFO skeptic. There were others before him, but Klass defined the role. He is thought of by some as a close-minded debunker (and perhaps rightly so), but his influence on ufology cannot be understated. Originally an aerospace journalist, Philip J. Klass went on to found the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP). He has served on its board since the outset, and often contributes to its official publication The Skeptical Inquirer. In addition, Klass has written six books on UFOs, including UFOs: The Public Deceived, and UFO Abductions: A Dangerous Game. George Knapp is an investigative journalist and video producer for KLAS-TV in Las Vegas. In 1990, he received Best Individual Achievement honors from United Press International for his series about UFOs. Knapp broke the story of Bob Lazar, a self- professed government scientist who claims to have back- engineered UFO technology at Area 51. Knapp has also traveled to the former Soviet Union where he interviewed Russian scientists about UFO research there. Most recently, Knapp filed an in-depth report on Utah's UFO Ranch. Kal Korff: Say his name in the presence of any ufologist and you're bound to get a reaction. Love him or hate him, Korff is a presence in contemporary ufology. He is best known for his book The Billy Meier Story: Spaceship of the Pleiades, an in-depth examination of the now infamous Meier UFO case. Loy Lawhon is the man behind the plethora of information found on About.com's UFO Forum. Lawhon has been seeking the truth about UFOs since he read Frank Edwards' book Stranger Than Science at the age of 12. He is a former MUFON field investigator and state section director. Regarding his website, Lawhon says, "I come to the study of UFOs with a healthy skepticism born of a scientific background and years of work in a technical field. I hope to bring a balance between skepticism and belief to the online study of UFOs and related topics." Don Ledger worked as a civil servant, sound engineer, and TV producer-director for the provincial government of Nova Scotia for 34 years. He is the author of The Maritime UFO Files and co- author of Dark Object, an investigation into the Shag Harbor, Nova Scotia UFO incident. He is a regular contributor to the Toronto-based radio show Strange Days Indeed, hosted by Errol Bruce-Knapp, and has been an active UFO investigator for over 10 years. Roger Leir, podiatric surgeon, has performed nine surgeries on alleged alien abductees in order to remove foreign objects suspected of being alien implants. Dr. Leir is a frequent guest on talk radio shows and has made numerous television appearances. His book The Aliens and the Scalpel helped open an entirely new avenue for abduction researchers to explore. Michael and Deborah Lindemann: Michael Lindemann is the founding editor of CNI News, one-time senior editor for Future Studies at One Cosmos Network, the San Francisco-based media company founded by Joseph Firmage, and owner of Chancellor Publishing. He is one of America's most active and well-known lecturers on the subject of UFOs and human-alien contact. In 1994, he co- founded the Institute for the Study of Contact with Non-human Intelligence (ISCNI, Inc.), the first on-line institute devoted exclusively to studying claims of human contact with other intelligent life. ISCNI offers public lectures and private classes with top researchers, plus library archives, a bookstore, news center and public discussion areas. Deborah Lindemann is a certified, registered clinical hypnotherapist. She has a dedicated interest in unusual and mystical experiences, including the UFO abduction phenomenon. Although she says reincarnation/past life therapy and altered states of consciousness originally motivated her studies in hypnotherapy, alien contact cases soon became an unexpected part of her practice. In her opinion, "When you are confronted with these profound experiences, or those who have them, you cannot ignore the reality or the sincerity of those who have traveled this road." Bruce Maccabee is, by most accounts, a very capable piano player. He is also one of the most respected UFO researchers in the field today. Maccabee holds a Ph.D. in physics and began work at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in 1972. He has been active in UFO research since the late 1960s when he joined NICAP. He became a member of MUFON in 1975 and was subsequently appointed to the position of state director for Maryland, a post he still holds. In 1979, he was instrumental in establishing the Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR) and was the chairman for 13 years. He presently serves on the FUFOR National Board. Maccabee is the author of The UFO/FBI Connection, and author or coauthor of about three dozen technical articles and more than 100 UFO articles over the last 25 years, including many that have appeared in the MUFON UFO Journal and MUFON symposium proceedings. Jim Marrs is an award-winning author and journalist whose books include Rule by Secrecy, Crossfire, and Alien Agenda, which is considered by many to be a modern UFO classic. Jaime Maussan is host of the popular Mexican radio program Extraterrestrials: An Intelligent Phenomenon, heard on 15 affiliates in the 25 largest cities of Mexico and Guatemala. Maussan also works as an investigative journalist for the television show Tercer Milenio that is broadcast via the Televisa Network to all Latin American countries. Maussan's investigations into the on-going Mexico UFO wave have garnered worldwide attention, and he has been invited to speak at UFO conferences and gatherings around the world. Billy Meier was born in B=FClach, Switzerland, in 1937. For over 56 years, he claims, he has maintained a series of physical and telepathic contacts with extraterrestrial beings who say they come from the Plejares star cluster. Acting as a mediator and spokesperson for the Pleiadians/ Plejarens from planet Erra, Meier imparts their esoteric teachings and wisdom to us. He has taken more than 1,000 of the clearest UFO photos ever seen. Naturally, many people have come forward to claim that the entire phenomenon is a hoax. Underground Video, Inc., for example states that one of Meiers' alleged Pleiadian beamships, taken in 1981, is really a miniature model made out of an upside-down cake pan, disconnected copper hose fitting, a bracelet, carpet tacks, and various other identifiable objects. The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears catalog. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo astronaut and sixth man to walk on the moon, is one of contemporary ufology's most honored and distinguished members. He is the founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), an organization that sponsors research into the nature of consciousness. He is co-founder of the Association of Space Explorers, an international organization founded in 1984 for all who share the experience of space travel. Mitchell is the author of Psychic Exploration: A Challenge for Science and The Way of the Explorer, as well as dozens of articles in both professional and popular periodicals. Mitchell believes governments around the world have concealed evidence of UFO contact. In a recent interview with Soul Travel Magazine, he stated that it is time for officialdom to end the cover-up: "I think it is time (now) to release the constraints on UFOs and extraterrestrial information that has been avoided or hidden by most nations, and/or in agreement with extraterrestrials themselves. The evidence for [their] existence and visitation is now widespread enough that enormous upheaval of earthly institutions is unlikely." Jim Moseley is known as the Court Jester of Ufology by many, El Supremo by some, R. E. Straith by a select few, and far worse by others. He is the founder of NUFOC and editor of the long- running Saucer Smear newsletter, a semi-regular 'zine that covers the personalities that make up ufology. Along with Stanton Friedman, Moseley was one of the original UFO lecturers in the United States, and has given presentations to hundreds of colleges since the 1960s. He has also discussed saucerdom on hundreds of radio and television programs through the years. Moseley is a "skeptical believer" when it comes to UFOs, and doesn't stridently hold to any one theory to explain their existence. "UFOs as machines piloted by ETs" is far too narrow a theory for his taste. Instead, he has settled on an explanation for UFOs he has termed the "4-D theory." You can read more about it, and all of his ufological escapades in his book Shockingly Close to the Truth. Royce Myers, the "UFO Watchdog," has been on the lookout for frauds and con artists within the field of ufology since 1997. Through his popular website www.ufowatchdog.com, Myers has exposed a number of high-profile UFO cases, including most famously the Jonathan Reed case. Myers was sued, unsuccessfully, by Sean David Morton in 2003 over a series of highly critical investigative articles. Fresh from his victory, Myers went back to work, this time confronting the claims of Ed Dames. "Don't trip on your open mind" is the UFO Watchdog creed, and to this end, Royce Myers does his best to make sure that all aspects of popular modern UFO cases and the personalities that report on them are uncovered. George Noory hosts the most popular overnight talk radio show in the world, Coast to Coast AM. Noory took over the weeknight Coast to Coast reins from Art Bell in 2003. As a teenager, Noory joined NICAP and immersed himself in ufology, "so much so that I decided I wanted to go into broadcasting in order to do unusual stories in the paranormal and stories that the mainstream media didn't want to touch," he told After Dark magazine. Indeed, his very first broadcast interview, while a young radio reporter for Detroit's WCAR-AM, was with Roswell expert/physicist Stanton Friedman, with whom he has maintained a lifelong friendship. At age 28, Noory was the youngest major market news director in the country when he was at KMSP-TV in Minneapolis. Years later, his late-night radio program on KTRS in St. Louis, The Nighthawk, garnered the attention of Premiere Radio Networks executives, who were searching for a replacement for the retiring Art Bell. Noory's penchant for covering paranormal topics with enthusiasm and skill impressed Premiere, and he was brought on board. "Coast to Coast AM may just be the most unusual show I have ever witnessed or been a part of. You really almost have to be born into that arena, I think, in order to handle it. I was very lucky, that's the way I was guiding my own career. It was this thirst to really get to the bottom of some of these stories that kept pushing me." James Oberg is a prominent UFO skeptic, having been involved in a number of heated debates with some of ufology's biggest proponents, including Don Ecker, Stanton Friedman, and astronaut Gordon Cooper. Oberg worked for 22 years as a space engineer in Houston, where he specialized in NASA space shuttle operations for orbital rendezvous. Oberg has written ten books and more than 1,000 magazine and newspaper articles on all aspects of space flight. Karl Pflock is an author, consultant, and UFO researcher. He is a contributing editor for Reason, science columnist for Eternity Science Fiction, and contributing editor for Jim Moseley's Saucer Smear. His articles on UFOs have appeared in Fate, the Fortean Times, Omni, International UFO Reporter, The Anomalist, MUFON UFO Journal, and other U.S. and foreign publications. A popular speaker at UFO gatherings, he was named 1998's Ufologist of the Year by the National UFO Conference. He has appeared frequently on radio and television and has served as an advisor to the producers of Unsolved Mysteries and Sightings. His latest book is Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe. John Podesta served as chief of staff to President Bill Clinton from 1998 until 2001, and is currently a visiting professor of law at the Georgetown University Law Center and a senior fellow at the National Resources Defense Council. As part of the Coalition for Freedom of Information group, Podesta has lent his credibility and power within official Washington circles to the cause of ufology. Podesta has been an outspoken critic of government secrecy, telling reporters at 2002 press conference, "It is time for the government to declassify records that are more than 25 years old and to provide scientists with data that will assist in determining the true nature of the [UFO] phenomena." Nick Pope is a British Ministry of Defense official who headed up the ministry's office for research and investigation of the UFO phenomenon from 1991 to 1994. Although most of the cases could be explained as misidentifications of known objects and phenomena, a core of sightings defied any conventional explanation. Strong evidence emerged suggesting the presence of structured craft capable of speeds and maneuvers beyond the capability of even the most advanced prototype craft operated by the British or American air forces. Pope found numerous instances where UFOs had been tracked on radar, leading to jets being scrambled. There were also cases where there had been terrifying near-misses between UFOs and civilian aircraft. Pope acknowledges the existence of extensive classified British government files on the UFO phenomenon and believes that there should be a full disclosure of all information on UFOs held by governments around the world. "I believe that governments and the military, and indeed private researchers, politicians =97 whoever =97 should place everything in the public domain on this issue. Governments can't, I think, have it both ways. You cannot say on the one hand, as the party line often goes, that UFOs are of no defense significance, and then on the other keep back some of the data. You simply can't do that. You have to have it one way or the other. And if, as governments consistently say when the politicians probe on this issue or when the media inquire, that there's really nothing to worry about, then okay, let's see all the data." Harold Puthoff is the director of the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas. He is considered one of the premier theoretical physicists in the field of zero point energy and has published several seminal papers in the subject area. He is co- author of the textbook Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics. Puthoff's latest work involving UFOs appeared in the prestigious Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, in the form of a co-authored paper entitled "Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation." Kevin Randle is a former army helicopter pilot and air force intelligence officer, an active national guard member, and a UFO researcher who has been writing about the phenomenon for three decades. He has written or co-written numerous books on the subject, including UFO Crash at Roswell, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, and A History of UFO Crashes. He has made numerous appearances on television and radio, including Good Morning America Sunday, the Larry King UFO special, and Unsolved Mysteries. Randle's research has taken him throughout the United States, interviewing witnesses, investigating sightings, and searching for the answers that have eluded so many. Jenny Randles is a British ufologist, columnist for the MUFON UFO Journal, and author of Alien Abductions, The Complete Book of Aliens & Abductions, The Little Giant Encyclopedia of UFOs, Mind Monsters: Invaders from Inner Space? and Beyond Explanation. Randles had her first UFO sighting as a small child. She became a BUFORA field investigator in 1973 and was promoted to director of investigations in l981, a post she held until 1993. Her articles have appeared in the London Times, The Guardian, New Scientist, and OMNI. She has given lectures and presentations to groups all over the world, including the British Houses of Parliament. Nick Redfern traces his interest in UFOs back to the late 1970s, when his father related to him an incident he was involved with while serving in the British Royal Air Force. He began writing on the UFO subject in a freelance capacity in the mid-1980s. Since then, Redfern has become one of the world's best UFO writers, responsible for books such as A Covert Agenda: The British Government's UFO Top Secrets Exposed, The FBI Files: The FBI's UFO Top Secrets Exposed, and Cosmic Crashes: The Incredible Story Of The UFOs That Fell To Earth. He also writes for numerous magazines, journals, and newspapers, including Fate. Jeff Rense hosts the popular late night talk show The Jeff Rense Program, a nationally syndicated radio show that deals with all aspects of the paranormal and UFO related phenomena. Frequent guests include Peter Davenport, George Filer, Brad Steiger, Jim Marrs, Brian Vike, and more. Peter Robbins has been involved in UFO studies for nearly 30 years as a researcher, investigator, writer, and lecturer. He serves as head of the UFO Media Group of Central Park Media Corporation and is editor-in-chief of the well-known website www.UFOcity.com. In 1978, Robbins served as a research assistant on the United Nations report for the establishment of a UFO department. From 1980 to 1985 he was an investigator for the Scientific Bureau of Investigation, a New York City-based civilian/police UFO research and investigative organization. =46rom 1992 to present, he has served as executive assistant to Budd Hopkins; Intruders Foundation. Robbins is a columnist for UFO Magazine and co-author of Left at East Gate. Mark Rodeghier has served as President and Scientific Director of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) since 1986. He holds a B.S. in Astrophysics from Indiana University and a Ph.D. from the University of Illinois at Chicago in Sociology. Rodeghier has been active in the UFO field since 1974 and has done research and investigation in a variety of areas, including vehicle interference cases, abduction cases, and physical evidence cases. He has written numerous articles for the Internationl UFO Reporter and the Journal of UFO Studies and was featured prominently on the ABC-TV program "UFOs =97 Seeing Is Believing." Hilly Rose has been examining the paranormal world through radio broadcasts, books, magazines, and the Internet for many years. A seasoned broadcaster, respected by peers and fans alike, Rose honed his talk show skills in California in both the Los Angeles and San Francisco markets where he was one of the first in the United States to pursue paranormal programming on the radio. As the Internet and streaming audio developed, Rose broke new ground by creating a series of daily shows related to the world of paranormal occurrences for Imagine Radio called The I-Files. Currently, he is the host of The Hilly Rose Show, heard exclusively online at www.fatemag.com, and fill-in host for George Noory and Art Bell on Coast to Coast AM. =09 David Rudiak has a scientific background that includes a doctoral degree in optometry. In the field of ufology, Dr. Rudiak's main area of expertise is the Roswell saucer crash of 1947, which he has been studying since 1994. He is best known for his work with the Ramey Memo. Using computer enhancements, Rudiak has been working to establish what information the telex photographed in Gen. Roger Ramey's hand at a press conference held, as Ramey tried to explain away the Roswell crash as a weather balloon. This work on Ramey's memo was presented publicly for the first time at the Ozark UFO Conference in 2001 and was featured on the 2002 Sci-Fi Channel special on Roswell. Michael Salla is the author of Exopolitics: Political Implications of the Extraterrestrial Presence. Salla is an internationally recognized scholar in international politics, conflict resolution and United States foreign policy, and is currently a researcher in residence at American University's Center for Global Peace. Salla launched the web site www.exopolitics.org in January 2003. It has quickly become one the most popular UFO sites on the Internet, attracting interest from those seeking to understand the big picture about the undisclosed extraterrestrial presence and its political implications. John Schuessler serves as the International Director of MUFON. He was involved in the United States manned space program from 1962 until 1998, working in executive positions for NASA and several private aerospace companies. Aside from his MUFON duties, he is a member of the UFO Research Coalition Board of Directors and an Associate of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies. He has authored more than 100 technical papers and articles and is the author of two books: UFO-Related Human Physiological Effects and The Cash-Landrum UFO Incident. Esen Sekerkarar is a leading Turkish ufologist. She became involved in the UFO field in 1998 with the opening of the Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center (SUSSRC) where she worked until 2002. SUSSRC is the first such center in Turkey and it has organized three International UFO Symposiums in Istanbul, where many of the world's leading authorities have participated as speakers. The Center also created a weekly TV documentary called UFO Reality, co-produced by Sekerkarar, which was broadcast on a national TV channel in Turkey. She is also one of the three founders of the International UFO Museum, which was opened in January 2002 in Istanbul. Esen Sekerkarar has lectured at the San Marino World UFO Congress and the MUFON UFO Symposium. She is also the International MUFON Representative for Turkey. Her reports have appeared on websites and publications around the world, including FATE. David Sereda has had a lifelong interest in UFOs since experiencing the phenomena firsthand as a child. Between 1995 and 2001, he conducted an investigation of over 400 hours of NASA space shuttle mission video footage. The results of that investigation led to the development of his book and documentary film Evidence: The Case For NASA UFOs. Seth Shostak is a senior astronomer with the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI). For much of his career, he has conducted radio astronomy research on galaxies, and has published approximately 50 papers in professional journals on this and other subjects. He has also written several hundred popular articles on various topics in astronomy, technology, film, and television. His book Sharing the Universe appeared in 1998. Shostak is a skeptic when it comes to UFOs, "I personally don't think they are here. If aliens have been visiting the Earth for 50 years, you would think that it would not be so hard to convince a lot of people that that was true. It's convinced 50 percent of the American public, but it's convinced very few academics. As an astronomer friend said to me, if I thought there was a one percent chance any of that was true, I'd spend 100 percent of my time on it. In other words, if the evidence were the least bit compelling, you'd have lots of academics working on it because it's very interesting. To me that says that the evidence is weak from the scientist's perspective." Rob Simone is a UFO researcher, former assistant to the director of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, and host of the popular talk radio show The Headroom. Frequent guests on his show include Jim Marrs, David Sereda, and Nick Pope. Derrel Sims, the "Alien Hunter," has pursued the UFO subject with a passion since his first alien encounter at the age of four. Those first memories are not pleasant ones, and Sims now hunts the entities who once hunted him, his son, and, perhaps, someone you know and love. Sims is a certified hypnotherapist, an international speaker, a licensed private investigator, and a researcher of alleged human/alien encounters. He has made presentations to medical and scientific conferences that provide compelling approaches to alleged human/alien contact events. Zecharia Sitchin Considered by many to be the father of alternative archeology, Zecharia Sitchin has a deep knowledge of modern and ancient Hebrew and many other Semitic and European languages. He has done years of research on the ancient cultures of Sumer, Egypt, and Mesoamerica. One of approximately 200 scholars on the planet who can read and understand ancient Sumerian, Sitchin has written a series of intriguing books about the history of ancient human cultures and their possible interaction with UFOs and alien beings, including the classic The 12th Planet, The Wars of Gods and Men, When Time Began, Stairway to Heaven, and The Lost Realms. Born in Russia, raised in Palestine, educated in England, and a leading journalist and editor in Israel for many years, he now lives in New York. Brad Sparks is a UFO researcher and co-founder of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS), the UFO organization that successfully forced the CIA to release 900 pages of government UFO documents in 1978 by using the Freedom of Information Act. Ultimately, CAUS would be responsible for the release of between 7,000 and 8,000 UFO-related documents from a who's who of official entities, including the Air Force, Coast Guard, Navy, Defense Intelligence Agency, North American Aerospace Defense Command, Federal Aviation Administration, and others. Steven Spielberg is certainly one of the most influential personalities in the history of film. He is perhaps Hollywood's best known director and one of the world's wealthiest filmmakers. He has numerous money-making, critically acclaimed credits to his name, as producer, director, and writer. He is best known within the UFO community for E.T. the Extra- Terrestrial and Close Encounters of the Third Kind, as well as the TV miniseries Taken. Leo Sprinkle began pioneering research into the UFO abduction phenomenon in the mid-1960s and set the standard for research in this controversial field of study. He founded the Rocky Mountain UFO Conference. As a professor at the University of Wyoming and a therapist, Dr. Sprinkle has conducted over 500 hypnotic regression sessions with individuals looking to explore their possible UFO contact experiences. Among these were many of the most sensational and well-documented cases of our times. Dennis Stacy was editor of the MUFON UFO Journal from 1985 to 1997. He received the 1995 Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Award for a six-part series on UFOs that appeared in Omni magazine. He is also the author of The Marfa Lights: A Viewer's Guide, and, most recently, he co-edited UFOs 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers with Hilary Evans. Paul Stonehill is a Soviet-born researcher of anomalous phenomena and director of the Russian Ufology Research Center. He has written several books about anomalous phenomena, including The Soviet UFO Files, as well as numerous articles and papers for publications across the globe, including regular contributions to Fate. He been a consultant to the Sightings and Encounters TV shows and has made numerous radio appearances. Whitley Strieber is the author of Confirmation, The Secret School, The Key, The Wolfen, and The Hunger. He is most famous, however, for his book Communion, a first-person account of his own experiences with the "visitors." He is the host of Dreamland, a popular online talk show once hosted by Art Bell, and with his wife Anne, is the co-editor of www.unknowncountry.com. Peter Sturrock, emeritus professor of physics at Stanford University has served as president of the Society for Scientific Exploration since 1981. In 1997, Sturrock headed a panel of nine scientists commissioned by Laurance Rockefeller that sought to determine whether UFOs were worthy of serious scientific analysis. The group concluded that, indeed, the UFO mystery has merit as a serious subject for science. Out of this panel's discussions came The UFO Engima, a must for every ufologist's shelf. Curt Sutherly is a professional journalist with nearly 30 years of experience investigating UFOs and other paranormal phenomena. He is the author of two books, UFO Mysteries and Strange Encounters, and has written more than 100 magazine articles on the subject for such venerable publications as Fate, Psychic World, and Strange Magazine. A Vietnam-era veteran, Sutherly served as a maintenance crew chief on fighter aircraft and was eventually promoted to the rank of sergeant in the U.S. Air Force. He is currently employed by the Department of Air Force in a civil service capacity. Curt Sutherly has been the recipient of numerous awards and decorations for his service, including the Award for Exemplary Civilian Service, presented by the Air Force for his superior performance from 1992=9694 and the Civilian of the Year Award, presented by the 360th Air Force Recruiting Group in 1995. Rob Swiatek joined the Fund for UFO Research in 1986. He currently serves as secretary-treasurer on the organization's board of directors. He is also director of the UFO Research Coalition and a business board member of MUFON. He has appeared in several UFO television documentaries over the years and has spoken before numerous UFO conferences. He has undergraduate degrees in both physics and earth science and has been employed for over 25 years with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office in Arlington, Virginia, where he works with aeronautics patent applications. Michael Swords is a professor of natural science at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan. His teaching centers around human biology, the history and philosophy of science, scientific methodology, and the parasciences, including ufology. His writings have concentrated mainly on topics in ufology, parapsychology, and cryptozoology, and several have been published in the MUFON UFO Journal. Dr. Swords serves as a MUFON consultant, and was in the same capacity for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, the International Fortean Organization, and as a member of the advisory panel for the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained. He is also a board member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies. Kenn Thomas is the founder of Steamshovel Press, one of the most influential "conspiracy" publishing houses in existence. He is editor of Steamshovel Press magazine and author of The Octopus: The Secret Government and Death of Danny Casolaro, Inside the Gemstone File, Maury Island UFO: The Crisman Conspiracy, and Flying Saucers Over Los Angleles. He has been featured on many radio and television programs including Fox News, The X-Zone, The Jeff Rense Program, and Coast to Coast AM. Joseph Trainor compiles and edits UFO Roundup, a weekly compilation of UFO related events, sightings, and stories from around the world. You can find UFO Roundup on the Internet at www.ufoinfo.com/roundup. Robert Trundle is a professor of philosophy at Northern Kentucky University. He has written numerous books on the history of philosophy and the philosophy of science. In addition to having published an article on the extraterrestrial issue in Science and Method in the Netherlands, his book, Is ET Here? No Politically, But Yes Scientifically and Theologically is set for release in May 2005. On the existence of UFOs and extraterrestrial life, Trundle says, "I believe contact was made 50 years ago, and I believe beings from other planets are here now, mainly to study us. There are benign scenarios in which they might be seen as anthropologists coming here out of curiosity. Then there is a more threatening scenario, which is that they're studying to see if the earth is habitable. An even more worrisome possibility is that they have a hybrid program of sexually mating with humans to strengthen their species. Does ET exist from a political perspective? No, because the government is afraid of the culture shock and public panic. For the government to acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrials here would be to admit it can't protect us from them." Tom Van Flandern is a professional research astronomer who has taught astronomy at the University of South Florida and to Navy Department employees. He has also been a consultant to NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab and done several spots for the Project Universe series on public TV. Dr. Van Flandern is the founder and President of Meta Research, Inc., whose goal is astronomical research wherever promising avenues of advancement are blocked by funding authorities solely because the research results might conflict with an accepted paradigm. He has appeared on PAX-TV's Encounters with the Unexplained to discuss Mars anomalies and his given numerous presentations on the possibility of artificial structures on the surface of Mars. Van Flandern is the author of the book Dark Matter, Missing Planets and New Comets. Jacques Vallee has written numerous books on UFOs, several of them bestsellers, analyzing a notoriously ethereal subject as a hard-headed physical scientist, folklorist, and sociologist. He believes there is more than enough solid evidence to make a compelling case for the existence of UFOs. Vallee's views about UFOs are more exotic and far stranger than what he calls the reigning "nuts and bolts" approach to the subject. Consequently, he's been attacked by believers so often that he jokingly refers to himself a "heretic among heretics." As Vallee puts it, "I will be disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than spaceships." Jean-Jacques Velasco has been the Director of SEPRA, the official French government program to study UFOs, since the early 1980s. The program is one of the only ongoing, government- sanctioned UFO investigations in the world. Velasco believes beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SEPRA program has uncovered evidence of the physical reality of UFOs. Brian Vike is a Canadian UFO investigator and founder and director of HBCC UFO Research. The organization receives hundreds of UFO reports and sightings from across Canada every year. Their website is www.hbccufo.com. Travis Walton is perhaps the best-known abductee in ufology, at least as far as the general public is concerned. His story is recounted in his book, Fire in the Sky, and in the film of the same name (1993). On November 5, 1975, a group of loggers in the mountains of northeastern Arizona saw a strange, bright light in the sky. Walton, one of the logging party, got out of the truck=97an act which he regrets to this day=97and was blasted by a mysterious bolt of energy. The others fled in terror, and Walton was missing for five days. No one who has heard Walton speak can doubt his sincerity or the traumatic nature of his experience. Larry Warren is the co-author of Left at East Gate, a firsthand account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. Warren worked as an Air Force Security Specialist at Bentwaters Royal Air Force Base during the time of the December 1980 UFO sightings and was a direct eyewitness to the events that took place there. Robert and Ryan Wood are a father and son team investigating the so-called MJ-12 documents. Robert Wood had a 43-year career at McDonnell Douglas managing research and development projects and is a member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, American Physical Society, and American Society for Psychical Research, the Fund for UFO Research, MUFON, and the Society for Scientific Exploration. Ryan Wood has had a successful career in marketing for 25 years, including jobs with technology giants Intel and Toshiba. Together, the Woods have restored credibility
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:39:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:51:56 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:35:40 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:23:58 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >>No. My point was simply that by taking only some of the material >>from the Official History article, the picture painted of the >>Ministry of Defence's early involvement with the UFO mystery was >>incomplete. The full Official History article can be accessed at >>the following hyperlink, though it is also widely available on >>various UFO-related websites: >>http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm >>Although less well known, there is a second part to the Official >>History article. Part 2 addresses various questions raised by >>ufologists and can be accessed at the following hyperlink: >>http://www.nickpope.net/official_history_pt_2.htm >I was the one pointing out "odd discrepancies" in the history. >The way it still reads now is that "publicity campaign" was the >cause of Tizard's request to set up the Working Party (also did >he "request" or did he order it by direct command authority? if >he did not order the Working Party into existence whose >authority was responsible for commanding its creation?). >But the Working Party minutes and final report and the DSI >meeting minutes of Aug. 15, 1950, do not at all refer to any >"publicity" as the cause for setting up the Working Party. >Instead the final report refers to the "notable outbreak" of >sightings in Great Britain. Presumably the RAF sightings and >possible radar-visual of June 7 (and maybe Aug. 14), 1950, led >Tizard to request the Working Party be set up. If I'm missing >some reference to "publicity" somewhere in the official records >as the motivating factor please point it out to me. >Otherwise the way the history reads now it looks like some >sleazy tabloid-type "publicity campaign" in October 1950 led to >creation of the Working Party on Aug. 15, 1950. Brad, Nobody within government will admit to being media-led, but the fact of the matter is that both UFO sightings and media coverage will have had a part to play. The MOD attached more weight to RAF sightings than public ones (and the Final Report cites a handful of military reports), but the public reports are more numerous and the MOD often learns of these through the media. Finally, although it cannot be proven, there may have been a feeling that if the US had set up a UFO project in 1947, the UK should have one too. >The fuller history not on the MOD website goes to some length in >Part 2 to quote the renowned R. V. Jones as "perhaps the best >summary of Jones' view on the UFO issue, and is worth quoting >in full." In fact, Jones' position in this July 1968 article was >vacillating and perhaps even contradictory and it is unfair and >not accurate to just quote Jones' most skeptical debunking >points and ignore and fail to quote the more pro-UFO concessions >he also made in the same article. >For example in the very same July 1968 article R. V. Jones also >wrote that the "distinguished" scientist McDonald and the >official USAF scientific consultant Hynek both disagreed with >the official conclusions dismissing UFO's. Jones did not dispute >or disagree with McDonald or Hynek after noting their positions. >Jones then noted that there was a residue of about 10% >unexplained UFO sightings after official investigations. Then he >wrote of this 10% unexplained residue: >"A point of dispute is whether, after such errors have been >allowed for, there is enough left that is unexplained to make us >think that there is a gap in our knowledge either of natural >phenomena or of an extraterrestrial invasion of our atmosphere, >perhaps by intelligently controlled spacecraft." >Then Jones hemmed and hawed, skeptical and open again, saying >such pro-UFO things as: >"If Earth proves to be the one planet in the Solar system that >supports intelligent life, it is still possible that intelligent >beings from a more distant system have found the way to cross >intervening space in small craft without ageing on the long >journey; and, although it is unlikely, it is just possible that >the craft are small enough not to have shown up on astronomical >or radar surveys." >After a few more vacillations Jones remarks on the distinct pro- >UFO possibility of an unknown natural phenomenon (before making >the skeptical end remarks which were the _only_ ones quoted in >the Part 2 history): >"If known natural phenomena are insufficient to explain >everything that has been genuinely seen, the alternative to the >intelligently controlled vehicles is an as yet unrecognized >natural phenomenon. This is distinctly possible -- the case may >be similar to that of ball lightning, the occurrence of which >has long been both asserted and disputed." I think there is a tendency in a public talk or article to keep one's options open and put both sides of an argument, to a greater extent than might otherwise be the case. I speak from experience. Jones based his 1968 article on a lecture he'd given in Newcastle in 1967. Writing to the Ministry of Defence's Defence Intelligence Staff about this talk, before he delivered it, he said in a letter dated 1 November 1967: I am no less sceptical now than I was 20 years ago, but I should be glad to look at any of the taller stories of recent happenings". >Another comment in the history that is not accurate is the >following: >"Another indication of the strong US influence on the Flying >Saucer Working Party is the fact that their June 1951 final >report was entitled _Unidentified Flying Objects_. This term >had been devised by Ruppelt himself, early in 1951, but was not >at the time in use outside US Government circles." >Ruppelt was not in charge of Project Grudge until October 22, >1951, and thus could not possibly have "devised" the UFO term in >time for the June 1951 Working Party final report. The term >"unidentified flying objects" was in lower-case use in US >documents as early as 1947. Ruppelt did not start using the >abbreviation "UFO" and an upper-cased "Unidentified Flying >Objects" phrase until after Project Grudge changed names to Blue >Book in March 1952. Who actually originated this new usage and >abbreviation is unclear but it is clear that Ruppelt helped >popularize it. The official USAF designation due to Ruppelt's >influence, from 1952 onward for several years was "UFOB" rather >than "UFO". Yes, but Ruppelt was assigned to ATIC in January 1951, was aware of the UFO project straight away, and was being actively consulted by people like Jerry Cummings long before he formally took over the project. That said, I stand corrected on the terminology, if you have US documents that show the term "UFO" in earlier use. Your view that Ruppelt popularized - rather than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedma From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:57:53 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:06:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Friedma >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:51:18 -1000 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >>>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >>>>Michael Salla, I have trouble believing much of what you say because >>>>you have so blindly accepted nonsense from these guys. I am sure >>>>that the government is laughing it's head off at seeing you do >>>>so much well written disinformation... perhaps misinformation >>>>would be better. Sure the government has lied. They can at least >>>>hide behind national security. But what excuse can Lazar, Wolf >>>>et al provide? >>>Stanton, who defines 'nonsense' here? Just because someone >>>doesn't supply sufficient hard evidence or supporting documents >>>to meet your stringent standards doesn't mean they are >>>disseminating nonsense. You are asserting your methodological >>>bias as the benchmark standard for whistleblower or witness >>>credibility. Sensible people can disagree over methodology and >>>reach divergent opinions in particular cases. Claiming someone >>>is disseminating 'nonsense' or that a researcher is 'blind' >>>because they accept in whole or part the testimony of a >>>whistleblower or witness is a useful rhetorical method but >>>really doesn't address the inherent research difficulties in >>>this field. You for example accept that the government 'lies', >>>but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw >>>public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of >>>discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. What is the basis for this claim? Please don't invoke Lazar and Corso to establish its validity. Do you have a specific example to provide with a source that can be checked? I supose you are saying that Lazar had his degrees stolen along with his thesis and his mind was messed with so he can't provide names of his profs (Duxler certainly wasn't one) or his thesis advisors. So how come the government missed Pierce JC?. Or is that because he was commuting between Pierce in the San Fernando Valley and MIT? >>>Are you being sensible or naive here? Am I being gullible >>>in accepting claims >>>that the 'secret' government does indeed resort to these tactics >>>to discredit individuals? We can debate all day but resorting to >>>dismissive labels such as nonsense, blind, etc., doesn't help >>>anyone or answer these basic questions. Yes, the 'government' >>>lies, but does the government remove, alter or destroy evidence >>>to make one out to be a liar? >>Michael, I use the word "Nonsense" advisedly. Michael Wolf >>attended Upsala, but did not finish. That is it. According to >>his brother and three old friends, he never completed any >>college program, did spend time in a mental hospital for which >>his mother was asking her divorced husband for more support. He >>was never in the military was not a Colonel pilot, was not close >>to the Clintons, etc. The claim from him and him alone supported >>by nothing is that he had 6 degrees including an MD from McGill, >>PhDs in theoretical Physics from MIT and Cal Tech, a law degree >>from Georgetown and 2 more degrees. Not one shred of evidence >>has been presented. No diplomas, no listings. These claims are >>_nonsense_. >Aloha Stan, >Michael Wolf is a very interesting and complicated case as you >well know. Firstly, Wolf's brother, Ron Kruvant, changed his >story after Michael Wolf died. Ron Kruvant was previously >interviewed and confirmed what Michael had to say about his >government education, UFO contacts, etc. I think we should >consider what factors drove Ron Kruvant to change his story >before you jump the gun and use his changed testimony to >discredit Wolf. Stories about Michael being in a Mental hospital >were made by his sister who was ten years Michael's junior and >was too young to remember Michael's activities with UFO's and >recruitment by the government, both of which were initially >confirmed before Ron Kruvant's retraction. Sorry wrong again. An old friend of Michael's sent a copy of the court document in which Michael's mother asked for more support because of the cost of his being in a mental hospital. I have no reason to think Ron changed his story based on my conversations with him. >Michael Wolf himself >admited in an interview that his sister was mentally disturbed >so it's perhaps no surprise that she now accuses Wolf of this. I haven't talked to the sister. I looked at the document and talked to Ron and old friends. >As for your statements that Michael was not in the military, >close to the Clintons, and had no degrees, these are based on >lack of documentation. Lack of documentation does not prove >Michael Wolf was lying, it merely points to that and a number of >alternative explanations. Have you constructed a time-line to allow for all the education and to become a colonel and a pilot? For a guy who flunked out of Upsala... no record of law, Medical or Physics degrees, no names of thesis advisors, no theses or titles therefor, no pre-med, no physics background before MIT and Cal Tech, no published papers, no membership in Amer. Phys. Soc. This for a guy who lived in a tiny apartment and couldn't afford to pay in advance for his burial..... A guy who claimed to be emeritus chairman of a Research Institute employing more than 75 people but whose address was his tiny apartment and for which not even Dunn and Bradstreet could find any evidence..... Michael, I do have a nice bridge near Brooklyn that I would be happy to sell you at a real bargain price >The one I believe is applicable is >that he worked on classified projects as he claimed and was >verified by a number of researchers. Jim Courant, Paola Harris >and Michael Hesseman all personally travelled to Connecticut to >interview Michael Wolf, check his documents and overhead >converstations he had with medical experts and acclaimed >scientists. They were convinced he was legitimate. You never >physically visited Michael Wolf to check his claims as Courant, >Harris and Hesseman did. I believe their conclusions are more >reliable than your own and I consider Michael Wolf to be a >legitimate whistleblower. Funny they couldn't provide copies of any diplomas or the other missing info noted above. Don't forget I had many phone conversations with Michael before they came on the scene. >>Bob Lazar did take at least one class at Pierce Junior College >>near LA under physics Prof. William Duxler. He claimed Duxler >>taught Physics at Cal Tech. NOT TRUE... only at Pierce. No one >>has provided any evidence that he has received any degrees from >>anywhere. He did not work for Los Alamos. He worked for Kirk >>Meyer. He received his high school diploma on Long Island in >>August having taken one science course, chemistry. His >>educational and professional claims are _nonsense_, not even an >>advisor for his MS thesis. I have noted the many checks I have >>done with many offices at MIT etc >Here we go ahead with your document searches. Stan, I'm puzzled >why you won't accept that the documentary records of those >working on classified projects can and are regularly removed or >tampered with as a condition of employment to guard against >unauthorized disclosure of information. Here you go again with a totally unsubstantiated claim. Are you forgetting I had a Q and Secret clearance for 14 years? Sure doesn't work well to keep down unauthorized disclosure from Wolf and Lazar does it? >Perhaps you have you not >sufficiently thought through what has been set up by the >government. That's surprising since you have researched both >Roswell crash and some of the Majestic Documents (EBD and SOM) >and find them credible. Don't you see the implications of your >own research? If Roswell and the Majestic documents are >credible, then a system is in place to systematic discredit and >intimidate whistleblowers/witnesses and remove public records of >employees to maintain secrecy. This is total hogwash. I accept Roswell and MJ-12 (EBD,TF, CT) because of all the specific and detailed evidence which I have provided to back up my claims. I noted certain Tim Cooper documents were fraudulent because I found the originals which were emulated. Yes, Michael, documented evidence. I say Menzel did work for the CIA and NSA, and lots of companies, because I have copies of his letters to JFK, docs. re. his NSA employment, statements in his unpublished autobiography, etc. I say Twining was in NM July 7 - 11 because I managed to locate copies of his flight log, his pilot's flight log, and a newspaper article about his being at White Sands. I say TOP SECRET RESTRICTED was in use during the Ike years because the GAO said they found examples of it, etc. etc.. You say Wolf and Lazar must have been telling the truth because there is no evidence because the government must have eliminated it. Which approach makes more sense? >That's the logical outcome of >your own research and yet you refuse to accept this. My logical outcome is to go with the facts and data and make claims supported by them. You say since you believe the government gets rid of evidence that the absence of evidence is evidence these liars are telling the truth... how quaint. >>Bob's physics claims are more double-talk. Yes, 4 atoms of >>element 115 have been created in a period of a month at a huge >>accelerator. The half life is too short for anybody to collect >>500 pounds as Bob has alleged. I have noted many more, you should >>pardon the expression, facts >The scientists who produced the 4 atoms of element 115 said that >in theory a stable isotope could be created using technology >that doesn't presently exist on earth. That means that >extraterrestrials with advanced technologies can produce stable >isotopes of 115. Since Lazar claimed that the 500 pounds came >from ET sources, then Lazar's testimony was validated. Again we have a ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim. The term stability is used by guys working on high atomic number elements to mean half lives in the range of milliseconds. This is comparatively stable because most such isotopes have half-lives a thousand times shorter. >>Michael, I gather you will believe what you want to believe, but >>you are certainly undermining the efforts of legitimate >>Whistleblowers by promoting _nonsense_. Please provide any >>evidence, soft, hard, or medium, that these _nonsensical_claims_ >>are legitimate. >In your view Stan, are there any legitimate whistleblowers >discussing classified projects involving EBE's and/or ET >technologies? I like Salas' testimony (doesn't deal with EBE or ET Tech.) but no, I know of none. Do you? >As for different categories of evidence, I think it would be >very useful to have a discussion on what constitutes hard, soft >or medium evidence. We could then rank them and come up with >criteria for how to work with whistleblowers that have more or >less in each of these categories. In my view, soft evidence >involves factors such as whistleblower credibility, integrity, >coherence and consistency. Taking a lie detector test for >example is soft evidence. Lazar did well in his lie detector >tests so I would cite that as soft evidence in his favor. ><snip> >>Corso made a sworn statement to attorney Peter Gersten that he >>had been a member of the NSC. He refused to withdraw it when >>Peter showed him the letter from the Eisenhower Library. >>Incidentally, many of the minutes and lists of attendees at a >>host of NSC meetings are not any longer classified. Liaison >>people like Corso were concerned with particular areas not all >>NSC activities and did not even have a need to know for what >>other people were concerned with..... >What precisely did Corso say in the sworn statement to Gersten? >I'd like to see it. Corso, as I showed in the quote I supplied, >only ever said that he served on the staff of the National >Security Council. He was not a member and did not claim to be. >You are defending a red herring in insisting that Corso claimed >to be a member of the NSC. He was on the staff of the NSC. These >are very different job descriptions. Ask Peter Gersten. >>>As for the Eisenhower library having no record of Corso >>>attending NSC meetings or being a member of the NSC, you asked >>>them the wrong questions. As a staff member, Corso did not have >>>to be necessarily present at NSC meetings to fulfill his >>>functions, nor was he a member of the NSC as we know. If you >>>asked the Eisenhower adminstration if Corso was a member, then >>>of course the answer would be no. That was an elementary mistake >>>on your part. So what's your point here about the Eisenhower >>>administration lying? You should have asked the Eishenhower >>>library whether the list of staff members assigned to President >>>Eisenhower NSC is classified information, and whether the >>>attendence at NSC meetings in terms of staff representatives is >>>also classified information. In both cases, the answer would >>>most likely have been 'yes' which explains the answers you got. >>>FOIA would not help you get the attendence of NSC meetings since >>>it's not covered under FOIA so there would be no way of you >>>getting such information unless it was declassified. It's not >>>mine or Corso's problem if you asked the wrong questions and >>>didn't get the validation you were seeking. >>Michael, here you go with more nonsense. My requests were NOT >>FOIA requests. There is a huge amount of declassified NSC info. >>I didn't ask if he had attended NSC meetings. They checked and >>told me "We have not located any evidence that he ever attended >>an actual NSC meeting" and sent me some letters from his >>superiors. You want to make him an important cog in the NSC >>wheel. He was not >I never said your requests were FOIA, only that if you wanted to >know who attended NSC meetings you would not be able to do it if >it weren't declassifed, and that FOIA would not help in finding >out. I would expect that there's a huge amount of declassified >NSC info, but that does NOT mean that attendence at NSC meetings >was part of the declassified material. You are making a major >error here in making such an assumption. What the librarian told >you was that they could not locate evidence that he attended NSC >meetings in the declassified material that is available to the >general public. They could not look into the classified material >and tell you if Corso did or didn't attend the NSC meetings. >They would be breaking the law in doing so. Since you had no way >of knowing how many of the NSC meetings were declassified in >terms of attendence, then your question about Corso's attendence >was erroneous. As I said earlier, you asked the wrong question. Michael, you didn't answer my question about whether you had been to the Ike Library and what your basis for the claims you make is. I looked at minutes of many NSC meetings which had been declassified. Some were indeed censored even ones marked as TOP SECRET EYES ONLY. But it was never the attendance which was censored. I have copies here. >Also, when did I say anything about Corso being an important cog >in the NSC wheel? He was a Lt Col appointed as a staff member to >the NSC comprising Cabinet level officials. He was no important >cog. The important stuff happened when he was head of the Army's >Foreign Technology Desk at the Pentagon. Why are you focusing on >his NSC service when you have had no luck in finding >documentation to satisfy your penchant for documentary >verification of whistleblower testimonies? Michael once again you ignore the facts. I have the 4 page legal size two column roster of the group under Trudeau - from the Army Archives at Carlisle, PA. There indeed was a Foreign Technology group. It had two people in it. Corso was the junior member. I had direct dealings with the USAF FTD at Wright Patterson in the same time frame. They had dozens of employees - many of them highly technical, unlike Corso. They had wreckage in 1947. You are seemingly claiming that Corso, with no scientific or engineering background, by himself, introduced all those "new technologies" into US industry, but USAF FTD hadn't done so, even though an important part of their job was working with industry, in Operation Gold Eagle, and in projects such as mine (at Aerojet General Nucleonics) "Analysis and Evaluation of Fast and Intermediate Reactors for Space Vehicle Applications". (Russian tech.) >>I am glad to see you have done some homework on the NSC. I have >>no idea where your claims about what is, or isn't, classified and >>about Corso originate. Have you actually been to the Ike Library >>and had dealings with their archivists? Or are you making your >>comments up as you go along. >The attendence at NSC meetings is classified information. That >is well known among foreign policy professionals and I'm >surprised you weren't aware of this. So why are so many lists of NSC meeting attendees unclassified? This is 2005 in case you hadn't noticed it. >The records of meetings, >minutes, attendence, etc., remains classified until such time as >its release doesn't threaten national security and in accord >with the declassification set in place by any administration. It >may take decades for NSC material to be declassified. As for >doing homework on the NSC, I did my initial research on the NSC >while writing my US foreign policy book (The Hero's Journey >Toward A Second American Century), and also got a chance to quiz >a number of individuals who worked at the NSC while I was >working at the School of International Service at American >University. I'm no expert on the NSC but have a working >knowledge of its processes and classfication system. >In peace, >Michael Salla We are talking about events and meetings prior to 1962. Please answer my questions: 1. Have you ever had a security clearance?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:26:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:08:32 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:43:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases <snip> >Giant UFO sightings that fall through and get shown to be >nothing more than prosaic phenomena give ufology a black eye. >The longer they fester the more a laughing stock ufology >becomes. Lets try to prevent that. The Apollo 16 film didn't really fall through the cracks; several messages were posted about it on this list quite some time ago and it seemed that a general consensus was reached pretty quickly that your conclusion was correct: the disk was part of a boom on the Apollo 16 command module. I finally got around to putting a link on my own web site to your Apollo 16 article and just removed my own when I saw that the question of whether it was a reflection was now moot. If you really want to put your findings in the permanent record, I'd suggest that you submit a paper to the Journal of Scientific Exploration. It published a paper previously arguing that the object was a large spacecraft, so I think the editors would feel obligated to publish your counter argument, which seems conclusive to me. As for Oberg (belatedly) picking up the story, this is the only kind of UFO article that he and his corporate employers will publish for mass consumption: "Big UFO Case Debunked." They do this periodically, apparently because they want to impress upon the public the opinion that all unexplained UFO cases could be "logically" explained if there were sufficient information. They seldom if ever permit any other opinion to be heard. The art of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: How To Float Like A Stone - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:07:04 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:10:31 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Float Like A Stone - Balaskas >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:27:41 -0700 >Subject: Re: How To Float Like A Stone >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 6:39 AM >>Subject: UFO UpDate: How To Float Like A Stone >>Source: The Guardian OnLine - London, U.K. >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1481009,00.html#article_continu e >>May 11, 2005 >>How To Float Like A Stone <snip> >>The device exploits diamagnetism. Place non-magnetic objects >>inside a strong enough magnetic field and they are forced to act >>like weak magnets themselves. Generate a field that is stronger >>below and weaker above, and the resulting upward magnetic force >>cancels out gravity. <snip> >I remember having debates on Usenet with debunkers, including a >physicist, who insisted the story _must_ be a hoax. The fact is, >even many physicists are not familiar with ordinary >diamagnetism. It is usually treated as more of a laboratory >curiosity because it is normally so weak. I remember when I took >electromagnetism in college, we skipped right over the chapter >describing it. Diamagnetic effects of ordinary materials, such >as water, normally manifest themselves only in very large >magnetic fields, such as laboratory superconducting magnets. I never fail to be amazed myself whenever we perform such "antigravity" demonstrations for visitors and students in our physics labs (eg. a magnet is made to "hover" over a supercooled ceramic disk; a magnet dropped inside a vertical copper pipe that takes forever to reach the ground; a swinging aluminum pendulum that comes to a sudden stop in the presence of a magnetic field; etc.). Unfortunately, no one has managed to figure out a way to build a working flying saucer using such "antigravity" or repulsive force producing devices. Although flying saucers can be made to float over such devices on the ground, in the air both the saucers and the devices would come crashing down to Earth since there would be nothing to keep the devices themselves airborne! Yesterday I purchased helium filled balloon that is manouvered through the air by three radio contolled propellors. This balloon which can rise and descend vertically and hover in one place has more promise to become a cheap and effective personal transportation system which will easily fly over our future
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:54:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:11:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Balaskas >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:04 -0400 >Subject: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? <snip> >- from January 2003 to July 2004 more than 2,000 radar "tracks of >interest" were detected over Washington airspace leading to 350 >scrambles of customs aircraft based at Reagan National Airport, >according to the Department of Homeland Security." <snip> >However the most ufologicially interesting example is this: >"April 27, 2005: President Bush is taken to a White House bunker >and Vice President Cheney is evacuated from the executive >complex when an unidentified radar target approaches to within >seven miles of Reagan National Airport. Authorities conclude >that the radar blip was caused by clouds or a weather anomaly." >Would be interesting to know the actual technical data on this >"radar blip": duration, distance traveled, speed, direction, >date, time, etc. The way it first was detected and the manner in >which it was last detected and the strength. All of these >together would provide sufficient information to estimate >whether or not the "cloud or weather anomaly" made any sense. >For example, if it moved at more than 100 mph, like a small >plane, it wouldn't be a cloud. Hi Bruce! Considering the amount of commercial, private, military and police air traffic in and around Washington, D.C. and the very close proximity of Reagan "International" Airport (Air Canada has landing rights there) to the White House and the Pentagon, I am not surprised with the large number of "tracks of interest" during this 1 1/2 year period. Flying in and out of this airport recently which is located a little more than a "stone's throw" from the White House and the Pentagon, we were required to remain seated for 1/2 an hour before arrival and after departure so our plane would not be diverted away from Washington, D.C. I was able to take lots of close-up photos of all the major landmarks in the capital which are all less flying time away than aircraft at Andrews AFB to the S.E. (which I got to see too as well as the Vice-President's mansion at the U.S. Naval Observatory grounds to the west after first flying over the Pentagon on our flight back to Toronto). I too would be interested in seeing the technical radar data and knowing the weather conditions that produced the false(?) alarm of an unidentified aircraft flying towards the White House. Even at more than 100 mph, the blips could still be due to clouds or weather conditions in very much the same way police radar can pick up speeding phantom cars on tree lined highways on days with light winds. Although the tree branches would not be moving back and forth very fast, the radar may first detect the branches of very distant trees over the highway with the first radar echo. This would be followed by the detection of branches from less distant trees with the next radar echo and then the branches of much more closer tree branches with the next radar echo, and so on. The rapidly decreasing times for the consecutive radar echos could create the false impression of a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Ufology Action Figure Toys? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:49:37 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:14:03 -0400 Subject: Ufology Action Figure Toys? This link: http://www.herobuilders.com/ is to a site that will build an action figure based on you. It's so funny it's priceless. Could be quite the conversation piece at your next seminar or even get it on Ebay and auction it off for charity or research.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 03:33:48 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:25:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Gates >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:19:55 -1000 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:11:32 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >Aloha Dr. Salla, >>You are relying on proven liars and frauds for >"whistleblowers". >Ok, so if I and others disagree with you what then? I've >repeatedly come up with a number of reasons why we should >seriously consider whistleblower testimonies. I've argued why >whistleblowers such as Lazar, Clifford Stone, Phil Corso, etc., >should be seriously considered. You disagree, that's fine. I >respect your right to disagree but I will continue to argue that >you are wrong, and that UFO researchers who dismiss >whistleblower testimonies concerning ETV's and EBE's are >gnoring valuable evidence. As for the idea of 'proven liars and >frauds'. Who sets the criteria for assessing whistleblower >testimonies and making these conclusions? I haven't seen >anything but a bunch of ad hoc dismissals based on little more >than the refrain of 'where's the hard evidence'? That's the >wrong question. It should be, "has the hard evidence been >tampered with, withdrawn, etc." >>I want to inform you that when the Bennewitz story first started >>to come out, I and other researchers went to Dulce Canyon, >>interviewed Gabe Valdez, and physically searched Dulce Canyon. >>Other researchers continually combed that area for several years >>afterward. No underground facilities were ever found. I don't >>Believe there has ever been any truth to an underground facility >>(let alone a mythical alien/military laboratory) existing at >>Dulce. >I know other researchers who have reached different conclusions. >For example, Norio Harakaya visited Dulce with a Japanese film >production crew in 1990 and concluded: >I've been to Dulce with the Nippon Television Network crew and >interviewed many, many people over there and came back with the >firm conviction that something was happening around 10 to 15 >years ago over there, including nightly sightings of strange >lights and appearances of military jeeps and trucks. From what I have heard, if you contact Norio now, he back peddles away from that conclusion. Dulce/Archeleta Mesa is a stroke job. Always has been, always will be. The real meat may be in other 'actual' underground facilities, such as the one at Los Alamos, which supposedly was called "Dulce" as well as an actual one on the border of Colorado New Mexico near where I25 crosses over. I suspect it is that facility that then Congressman Bill Richardson got scolded for talking about in Taos years ago. The point being we no longer need USAF disinformation programs. All we need is to wait for somebody to come out of the wood work and unload an incredible story. Even though the person telling the story's background can't be verified, education credentials can't be verified, researchers will promote the story as the 'gospel-truth', never to be doubted because it tickles their ears. They then rationalize away any inconsistencies away as part of some eeeevvvvviiiillll government plot. You have Bennewitz who was fed stories of underground alien base at Dulce. You have various researchers who, suddenly got on the Dulce and other underground base band-wagon. You have the Lear prounouncement, then Cooper, who supposedly later, Lear claimed, borrowed some information and suddenly it became the 'Cooper story'. Then you have all the down-stream Dulce/Lear/Cooper "hangers-on-ers" Lazar's self-pronounced education background couldn't be verified; Coroso's co-author Bill Birnes said he faithfully recorded everything out of Corso's mouth - and apparently has this on 17 or so video tapes. Yet Corso claimed to researchers that the book was wrong and he wanted to correct it - blah, blah, blah. None-the-less, we don't know what information Corso considered to be questionable and what wasn't. We have the other story-teller whose story was on total cruise control to the UFO hall of fame till somebody actually checked into the background and discovered the bankruptcy and many other inconsistencies in it. Now many of the people who were loudly promoting it have backed away from him and the story... wanting to focus on other stories, reports and people. If you read the Collins/Doty book, the suggestion is that the facility at Kirtland is an actual communication center in which we communicate with ET. If this information is correct, I can see why somebody would want to divert Bennewitz's attention away from Kirtland and on to the ficitional Dulce. As to Bishop's book, I personally suspect that why people don't like it is because their ears aren't being tickled by the message in the book. Had he remotely hinted or suggested that the alleged Dulce/Archeleta Mesa base was real, Bishop would have been hailed as a true hero by the same people crying about it today.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 16 Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:27:26 -0400 Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen fuel now proved absolutely possible:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:56:39 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:21:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Miller >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 03:33:48 EDT >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:19:55 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:11:32 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >><snip> >As to Bishop's book, I personally suspect that why people >don't like it is because their ears aren't being tickled by >the message in the book. Had he remotely hinted or suggested >that the alleged Dulce/Archeleta Mesa base was real, Bishop >would have been hailed as a true hero by the same people >crying about it today. Robert I may be out of the loop but, other than a mean and picky review by Terry Hansen, I have neither read nor heard any negative criticisms of Greg's book. I don't mean to put you on the spot but if such exists, could you point me to it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:58:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:24:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Sandow >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen >fuel now proved absolutely possible: >http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion and >is it of any interest to The Disclosure Project and Greer? This is a brief newspaper story about a high school sophmore's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:26:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:25:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Smith >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen fuel >now proved absolutely possible: >http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion Not being an ET or privy to their tech, I still have an opinion and technically I would say no. You need something alot more special than a regenerative fuel cell to power those babies!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:37:09 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:33:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >Dr. Salla, >I'd like to thank you for reading my book, Project Beta, and >applying some critical thought to it. This is indeed rare, and I >appreciate it. >I would however like to take issue with some of your >statements. You apparently misread my words or chose to let your >preconceptions dictate your impressions in a number of areas. >In doing research for the book, I tried to let former >intelligence personnel give me their side of the story, and see >where it fit in with the Ufological literature and known facts, >as well as how their accounts jibed with what has been publicly >reported on the fallout of the Bennewitz case, as well as my own >impressions and observations after interviewing others. Aloha Greg, in giving the side of the intelligence personnel, I think it would have been fair to have given an objective analysis of the side of those presenting the 'pro-Bennewitz' case in the UFO literature. How can one perform an objective study if one side is presented as little more than a set of unsubstantiated rumors, urban legends and disinformation, and the other side, the intelligence side is given an objective analysis using avaiable documents and testimonies? Basically what you've done is constructed a straw man in terms of the pro- Bennewitz camp and given it a knock out punch with your objecive analysis of the 'anti-Bennewitz' or perspective of former intelligence personnel. >I have already addressed the issue of dealing with intelligence >agents in another post on this list. The gist of my opinion is >that you must deal with intelligence personnel if you want to >get to the center of the Government/UFO 'onion'. Listening only >to those who tell you what you want to hear is just as flawed as >ignoring them, or worse, believing all the information that they >feed you is true. It has been almost a quarter century since the >events described in Project Beta occurred. The passage of time >and much of the sensitivity surrounding the projects at Kirtland >have had time to cool down. This makes it more likely that >people involved in the disinfo campaign at the time can talk >more freely about the subject. I don't know how analysing the testimonies of Paul Bennewitz, Phil Schneider, Michael Wolf, Thomas Castello, Daniel Burisch, Bob Lazar, Myrna Hansen, etc., is listening to those who "tell you what you want to hear". Are you insinuating that those researchers trying to make sense of whistleblowers and witnesses describing secret underground bases filled with extraterrestrials who perform experiments on humans are fabricating their own horror story for entertainment? Perhaps those like myself who take such whistleblowers seriously need to take a course in UFOlogy 101 where we demand hard evidence and documentation of those claiming the existence of such underground bases. Regardless of ample testimonial evidence that 'hard evidence' and documentation are regularly withdrawn and tampered with by national security agencies, we just invoke the demand "where's the hard evidence", and we graduate as legitimate UFO researchers. >I find it interesting that people such as Col. Phil Corso and >Robert Dean were welcomed with open arms because they said what >we wanted to hear, although I know of no evidence uncovered as >yet to back up their most sensational claims. I am not calling >them liars or disinfo agents, I am merely making a point of >perspective here. The best procedure I think is to listen to >their stories, and check up on the information, as Robert and >Ryan Wood - among others - are currently doing. Why do you assume whistleblowers tell us what we want to hear? Their experiences come from long military services where they had the opportunity to experience what they claim to have witnessed. Revealing information about classified projects is no small matter and individuals doing so have great courage in risking the penalties. I think we can do more than denigrate them by claiming they are telling us what we want to hear. >How are whistleblowers more believable than intelligence agents? How do we know that these people are not intelligence agents themselves, or have been set up? If disinformation works well, the target will not only believe what they have been told or shown, but will keep their nose on the line and continue on their own, even without any subsequent confirming evidence. This is a well-demonstrated trait. If we believe whistleblower testimony out of hand, and reject intelligence leaks, we are not looking at the full picture. These are good points. I have no easy answer. We need to be alert to all these possibilities and be as discerning as possible. In the absence of hard evidence and documentation that will give us quick answers, we need to develop skills in analysing a witnesses integrity, veracity, etc. Even then, it may not be enough to have 100 percent confidence. That's why the social sciences are not as precise as the physical sciences. What happens in people's heads is much more difficult to work out than the behavior of colliding billiard balls and other empirical phenomenon. >You assume I only used information provided to me by Doty and >Moore. I also talked to Jerry Miller, Gabe Valdez, Leo Sprinkle, >Garry Massey, Joe Stefula, Christa Tilton, Grant Cameron and >Eric Davis, among many others, as well as published information >in newspapers, books, periodicals, and on the internet, as well >as declassified documents. This was made clear in the text as >well as in the acknowledgements section of the book. Although >the interviewees provided balance and helpful suggestions, as I >recall none of these people were seriously suspicious about any >sort of base at Dulce - with the possible exception of Christa >Tilton. Even Officer Valdez told me that he did not observe >anything along these lines on the Archuleta Mesa. Valdez lived >there and dealt with the terrain and residents in the area on a >daily basis. There were certainly cattle mutilated, and strange >lights aplenty, but no evidence of an underground base. I certainly find no flaw in your willingness to seek out a broad representation of witnesses and researchers to support your argument. You research was very thorough in describing the position of those that thought that Bennewitz was disinformed and was disseminating tainted material. In that sense, you earn the very highest marks and I'm sure that many veteran researchers in the UFO community will find your analysis compelling and may resent my chastising you for not seriously considering whistleblower testimonies. However, I wonder who else you would have interviewed if you took some of the whistleblowers claims of Schneider, Burisch, etc., seriously. >How do you know what was "genuine" in Bennewitz' reports? You >claim that I assume his whole theory of underground base and >captured humans (I never mentioned any captured people) was >solely a product of disinformation. This is not the case. What I >did say is that the Air Force and NSA capitalized on existing >aspects of his theory for their own ends. Yes, that is an important qualification. Thanks for making your position clearer. >Claims of whistleblowers are just like the claims of government >agents - we have to check the facts if they are available. Lazar, >Schneider, Wolf and Burisch had incredible stories to tell about >Dulce, but like Corso, Dean, and even Doty there is little or no >supporting evidence. (I double checked Doty's and Moore's >statements with those of others-within the government and the >UFO field, as well as published accounts. If they matched, I >included them. If not, I specifically stated so.) If Schneider >was murdered, was it because he was talking too much about alien >bases, or was there another reason? No one has answered this >question to date, although Valdez showed me letters from >Schneider's widow asking for his help in investigating his >death. I don't recall her mentioning anything about underground >bases. None of these people talked about Dulce until a decade >after Bennewitz had first started his reports. We are left with >rumors and claims, but no reliable information to back them up. >Plausible is not factual. The picture they paint is quite >incredible and frightening, but I am not dismissing their claims >out of hand. I'm glad to hear that. I think Schneider's case is especially interesting. It has all the characteristics of someone being eliminated for talking too much about his classified work. I do believe that he was 'eliminated' as a direct result of his testimony about underground bases and the various agreements reached with ETs by covert agencies. Disclosure Project whistleblowers such as Don Phillips and Daniel Salter talk about the 'death squads' used to eliminate those who break security. These are serious claims. As you say, without documentation and hard evidence, what do we do? We need to tread warily, and neither jump too quickly to conclusions either for or against the testimony. I don't think there are easy answers here and we need to be discerning, and do our best in analysing all the evidence. >I did not say that the $75,000 grant was given to Bennewitz as >part of a "sting". You state, "What is more likely is that >Bennewitz had developed the means for intercepting electronic >transmissions that were of great interest to the Air Force." >Except for the fact that I wrote that the originating agency was >actually the NSA, this is exactly what I maintained! I think >that you let yourself get so involved by what you thought you >read, that you didn't understand a major aspect of the case as I >tried to explain it. I agree, that it's important to demonstrate the role of different agencies and that these may have had conflicting agendas. Perhaps the NSA was interested in what Bennewitz had discovered, while AFOSI initiated a program of discrediting him. So there's a division of labor here between different intelligence agencies based on their primary functions. >You assume that the Air Force (as you say) wanted to find out >what the aliens were doing by using Bennewitz' expertise. If >that was the case, all they had to do was either copy his setup >or confiscate his equipment. This would not have been difficult, >since he was convinced that he was in their confidence. I >followed the more likely scenario. However what if the Air Force (or more correctly the NSA as you point out) was constrained by certain agreements in place between extraterrestrials and government agencies? One of those agreements may have limited the degree to which the Air force could electronically monitor the base activities of the extraterrestrials. In the Charles Hall testimony we have a description of how the Air Force and an extraterrestrial race reached agreements that were followed to the letter at Nellis AFB. Perhaps something also happened at Archeluta/Dulce whereby a private civilian such as Bennewitz could supply intelligence that the agencies couldn't do themselves under the terms of an agreement. If Bennewitz and others are correct that extraterrestrials have reached agreements with covert government entitities, then it would be plausible that the terms of an agreement would be that there would not be electronic surveillance of the base. This would be similar to how a government opens an embassy in a foregin country and the agreement proscribes electronic surveillance of the embassy by the host nation. >Bennewitz was flown over the Archuleta Mesa on at least two >occasions to look at the supposed indications of an underground >base there. The Air Force had actually placed props on the >ground to draw his attention to this area and away from Kirtland >Air Force Base. Why would they do this if there really was a >base under the mesa? Wouldn't they simply have told Bennewitz >that there was nothing of interest there? They knew that he was >contacting elected officials and news media about his concerns. >It would seem self-defeating let this secret out. Bennewitz was an electronics specialist that could trace the source of electronic transmissions. He traced these to the Archelutta Mesa and also had numerous sightings of UFOs in the Dulce area. I'm not sure of the prop story to divert Bennewitz's attention from Kirtland to the Archuleta Mesa/Dulce area. It sounds like a classic disinformation strategy to explain away how Bennewitz was interested in underground activities at Dulce. So I don't believe the Air Force placed props there as you were told presumably by Doty? It sounds like the kind of tale he would have weaved during his service. I would say you were too quick to accept this as the basis of Bennewitz's interest in the location of Dulce. >On the Art Bell program about a month ago, Richard Doty stated >that he knew the Roswell incident was a crashed alien craft. If >it were not for the fact that Doty is persona non grata in the >UFO community, this would have been greeted as a revelation. Was >this a another ploy by Doty to keep us listening to other lies >he chooses to tell? He has been out of the Air Force for over 10 >years. What would be the purpose of such shenanigans? I know >many Ufologists will say that he still dances to his piper's >tune, and 'you never really retire from intelligence work', but >this stretches my own credulity. Besides, as I mentioned >already, he was not the sole source for the narrative of the >book. I think this is a fair point. I don't know how best to deal with someone like Doty who has clearly played a role in disseminating disinformation. I know that Clifford Stone played a role in disseminating disinformation to a target concering an crash- retreival incident - a female UFO researcher. Stone later confessed to this and regretted it. Stone however claims he would have gone to the grave maintaining silence and his loyalty oath were it not for the death of his son. It seems that was the catalyst that turned him around. I don't know much about Doty and will read his book with Collins and listen to some of his interviews to understand his motivations and integrity in coming forward. I remain suspicious but will be open to the possibility that he is genuinely contributing to the UFO community rather than dancing to his old master's tune. >I realized that I didn't have much more to go on than most >members of the public, so I decided to follow the information I >was given, and come up with the most likely scenario. I am not a debunker or rabid skeptic. Far from it. See: >www.excludedmiddle.com >for some of my earlier writings on the UFO subject. >To me, the evidence pointed at a disinfo campaign and little else. If there is any reliable evidence for a joint human-alien base in Dulce besides uncheckable testimony, I would like to see it. This is precisely the problem. How can one see "reliable evidence" of a highly classified project. Possessing such evidence is a crime and those even discussing the existence of such a project are violating national security. You and other UFO researchers speak casually about the need for 'verifiable evidence, yet don't appreciate the classified nature of the projects discussed by whistleblowers. I've come up with a list of ten right questions for whistleblowers that I recently distributed on the forum and which you can find online at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-30.htm >It is unfortunate that few of Bennewitz' photos of the area >survive. Those that do show nothing conclusive. Colleagues who >saw his aerial photos at the time could not pick out anything >substantive, no matter how hard they tried. >It seems to me that your concern stems from a core belief that >the alien-military alliance or at least interaction is a fait >accompli. I cannot subscribe wholeheartedly to a scenario for >which there has been no conclusive proof. It is very interesting >to study and speculate, but presently, an intellectual exercise >is all we have. There is nothing wrong with this, but there are >much better issues available in which to plant a basis in >reality. I have reached the conclusion from the testimonies of a number of whistleblowers that the "alien-military alliance" exists. That is not a 'core belief but a result of reading numerous whistleblower testimonies since I became interested in the extraterrestrial hypothesis. My entry into the the UFO field was listening to Greer's Disclosure Project Press Conference in 2001. I was never interested in UFO sightings before that, but became interested in whistleblower testimonies about secret agreements, cover up of UFO sightings, secret committee system that oversees deep black projects that allegedly deal with EBEs, ETVs, etc. In the discipline of Political Science whistleblower testimonies are regarded very highly and studied closely to unravel what's happening in different government agencies. We even have Federal whistleblower protection laws in place in the US and many countries in recognition of the service whistleblower's play in ensuring tranparent and honest governance. In contrast, I found the UFO community regularly dismisses whistleblower testimonies - there is a rather large gray box in UFO research gathering dust with many precious jewels that have been forgotten. The treatment given to whistleblowers is a major omission by UFO researchers and hopefully explains why I'm on this forum and trying to give whistleblower testimonies the kind of recognition they deserve. >You suggest that I stained Bennewitz' memory by my treatment of him in Project Beta. This is the opposite of my feelings and why I took great pains to emphasize this in the book. That's why I dedicated it to him. What I wanted to show was that even this brilliant man could be fooled by his own tunnel vision and his ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true, instead of weighing the evidence on a case-by-case basis. I'm sorry but what you say here is what I principally objected to in your work. You refer to his "own tunnel vision" and his "ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true". Why is that not staining his memory? It seems that you have accepted all that Doty and Moore have revealed, with minor support of a number of others you interviewed, to paint what appears to be a compelling picture of Bennewitz as a brilliant yet deluded man. If you seriously considered the testimony of some of the whistleblowers I mentioned, you may have reached a different conclusion. I think that is what we owe Bennewitz who paid a high price for honestly reporting his findings to a very sceptical and hard nosed UFO community. >You contend that Moore announced his complicity in the disinfo campaign to cover up for the fact that there actually _was_ an underground base. I suppose that this is possible, but this tactic launches us even further into speculation. >Project Beta deals with far more than the question of an >underground base. Divesting this subject from the rest of the >book does the story, and my research a disservice. We need to >emphasize what is provable to disinterested parties, based on >something besides (or in addition to) the testimony of >whistleblowers. When we are dealing in human experience, i.e. >something with which we are all familiar - secret weapons, >government malfeasance, etc. - we can investigate claims based >on a reality which is widely accepted, but to apply this to the >UFO question is an area which has been problematic at best. I can't fault you for adopting a methodology that many in the UFO community accept as rigorous scientific research method. The field has been dominated by the methodology first created by pioneers such as Donald Keyhoe, Allen Hynek, Jim MacDonald, Richard Hall, Stanton Friedman, etc. My own exopolitical model is strongly resisted since it doesn't place much emphasis on the need for documentation and verifiable evidence. As you say, your book will be helpful for disinterested parties who seek verifiable evidence. However, it's in the unverifiable evidence that the truth will be found. That is something many increasingly are realizing and why whistleblowers need to have their testimonies seriously considered. >I did not read any of the other responses to your post before >writing this, so I apologize for any repetition of subjects, and >thank those who I am told have supported me. While you may feel my comments are perhaps an unwelcome spotlight on your methodological approach to the Bennewitz saga, I believe you have done him and others a service in resurrecting his case and bringing it to the attention of many in the UFO community. In that sense, I think your book succeeds admirably in bringing into the focus the challenges that confront us in dealing with the disinformation leveled against UFO researchers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Rosamond From: Robert Rosamond <rivergypsy.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:38:30 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:42:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Rosamond >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen fuel >now proved absolutely possible: >http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion and is >it of any interest to The Disclosure Project and Greer? As my first, tentative, post to this rather fascinating List with some clearly impressive minds, I'd like to add another observation towards the item above highlighted by Colin. UFOs have frequently been reported either around, below, emerging from and even apparently 'taking on' water. It would seem, on face value at least, that this is an environment 'they' are quite familiar and happy with. Could this suggest an area which might sustain a little closer look in relation to the above? I realise that sea water figures a lot, but one could push the idea and suggest that given the apparent level of technology involved in E.T.'s chosen mode of transport, converting saline rich water into something more suitable would, one assumes, be a relatively simple job? Just an idle thought, and probably way behind most of you I suspect!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:39:54 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:46:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >>Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta ><snip> >Dr. Salla, >I'd like to thank you for reading my book, Project Beta, and applying some >critical thought to it. This is indeed rare, and I appreciate it. >I would however like to take issue with some of your statements. You >apparently misread my words or chose to let your preconceptions dictate >your impressions in a number of areas. >In doing research for the book, I tried to let former intelligence >personnel give me their side of the story, and see where it fit in with >the Ufological literature and known facts, as well as how their accounts >jibed with what has been publicly reported on the fallout of the Bennewitz >case, as well as my own impressions and observations after interviewing >others. Aloha Greg, In giving the side of the intelligence personnel, I think it would have been fair to have given an objective analysis of the side of those presenting the 'pro-Bennewitz' case in the UFO literature. How can one perform an objective study if one side is presented as little more than a set of unsubstantiated rumors, urban legends and disinformation, and the other side, the intelligence side is given an objective analysis using avaiable documents and testimonies? Basically what you've done is constructed a straw man in terms of the pro-Bennewitz camp and given it a knock out punch with your objecive analysis of the 'anti-Bennewitz' or perspective of former intelligence personnel. >I have already addressed the issue of dealing with intelligence agents in >another post on this list. The gist of my opinion is that you must deal >with intelligence personnel if you want to get to the center of the >Government/UFO 'onion'. Listening only to those who tell you what you want >to hear is just as flawed as ignoring them, or worse, believing all the >information that they feed you is true. It has been almost a quarter >century since the events described in Project Beta occurred. The passage >of time and much of the sensitivity surrounding the projects at Kirtland >have had time to cool down. This makes it more likely that people involved >in the disinfo campaign at the time can talk more freely about the >subject. I don't know how analysing the testimonies of Paul Bennewitz, Phil Schneider, Michael Wolf, Thomas Castello, Daniel Burisch, Bob Lazar, Myrna Hansen, etc., is listening to those who "tell you what you want to hear". Are you insinuating that those researchers trying to make sense of whistleblowers and witnesses describing secret underground bases filled with extraterrestrials who perform experiments on humans are fabricating their own horror story for entertainment? Perhaps those like myself who take such whistleblowers seriously need to take a course in UFOlogy 101 where we demand hard evidence and documentation of those claiming the existence of such underground bases. Regardless of ample testimonial evidence that 'hard evidence' and documentation are regularly withdrawn and tampered with by national security agencies, we just invoke the demand "where's the hard evidence", and we graduate as legitimate UFO researchers. >I find it interesting that people such as Col. Phil Corso and Robert Dean >were welcomed with open arms because they said what we wanted to hear, >although I know of no evidence uncovered as yet to back up their most >sensational claims. I am not calling them liars or disinfo agents, I am >merely making a point of perspective here. The best procedure I think is >to listen to their stories, and check up on the information, as Robert and >Ryan Wood - among others - are currently doing. Why do you assume whistleblowers tell us what we want to hear? Their experiences come from long military services where they had the opportunity to experience what they claim to have witnessed. Revealing information about classified projects is no small matter and individuals doing so have great courage in risking the penalties. I think we can do more than denigrate them by claiming they are telling us what we want to hear. >How are whistleblowers more believable than intelligence agents? How do we >know that these people are not intelligence agents themselves, or have >been set up? If disinformation works well, the target will not only >believe what they have been told or shown, but will keep their nose on the >line and continue on their own, even without any subsequent confirming >evidence. This is a well-demonstrated trait. If we believe whistleblower >testimony out of hand, and reject intelligence leaks, we are not looking >at the full picture. These are good points. I have no easy answer. We need to be alert to all these possibilities and be as discerning as possible. In the absence of hard evidence and documentation that will give us quick answers, we need to develop skills in analysing a witnesses integrity, veracity, etc. Even then, it may not be enough to have 100 percent confidence. That's why the social sciences are not as precise as the physical sciences. What happens in people's heads is much more difficult to work out than the behavior of colliding billiard balls and other empirical phenomenon. >You assume I only used information provided to me by Doty and Moore. I >also talked to Jerry Miller, Gabe Valdez, Leo Sprinkle, Garry Massey, Joe >Stefula, Christa Tilton, Grant Cameron and Eric Davis, among many others, >as well as published information in newspapers, books, periodicals, and on >the internet, as well as declassified documents. This was made clear in >the text as well as in the acknowledgements section of the book. Although >the interviewees provided balance and helpful suggestions, as I recall >none of these people were seriously suspicious about any sort of base at >Dulce - with the possible exception of Christa Tilton. Even Officer Valdez >told me that he did not observe anything along these lines on the >Archuleta Mesa. Valdez lived there and dealt with the terrain and >residents in the area on a daily basis. There were certainly cattle >mutilated, and strange lights aplenty, but no evidence of an underground >base. I certainly find no flaw in your willingness to seek out a broad representation of witnesses and researchers to support your argument. You research was very thorough in describing the position of those that thought that Bennewitz was disinformed and was disseminating tainted material. In that sense, you earn the very highest marks and I'm sure that many veteran researchers in the UFO community will find your analysis compelling and may resent my chastising you for not seriously considering whistleblower testimonies. However, I wonder who else you would have interviewed if you took some of the whistleblowers claims of Schneider, Burisch, etc., seriously. >How do you know what was "genuine" in Bennewitz' reports? You claim that I >assume his whole theory of underground base and captured humans (I never >mentioned any captured people) was solely a product of disinformation. >This is not the case. What I did say is that the Air Force and NSA >capitalized on existing aspects of his theory for their own ends. Yes, that is an important qualification. Thanks for making your position clearer. >Claims of whistleblowers are just like the claims of government agents-we >have to check the facts if they are available. Lazar, Schneider, Wolf and >Burisch had incredible stories to tell about Dulce, but like Corso, Dean, >and even Doty there is little or no supporting evidence. (I double checked >Doty's and Moore's statements with those of others-within the government >and the UFO field, as well as published accounts. If they matched, I >included them. If not, I specifically stated so.) If Schneider was >murdered, was it because he was talking too much about alien bases, or was >there another reason? No one has answered this question to date, although >Valdez showed me letters from Schneider's widow asking for his help in >investigating his death. I don't recall her mentioning anything about >underground bases. None of these people talked about Dulce until a decade >after Bennewitz had first started his reports. We are left with rumors and >claims, but no reliable information to back them up. Plausible is not >factual. The picture they paint is quite incredible and frightening, but I >am not dismissing their claims out of hand. I'm glad to hear that. I think Schneider's case is especially interesting. It has all the characteristics of someone being eliminated for talking too much about his classified work. I do believe that he was 'eliminated' as a direct result of his testimony about underground bases and the various agreements reached with ETs by covert agencies. Disclosure Project whistleblowers such as Don Phillips and Daniel Salter talk about the 'death squads' used to eliminate those who break security. These are serious claims. As you say, without documentation and hard evidence, what do we do? We need to tread warily, and neither jump too quickly to conclusions either for or against the testimony. I don't think there are easy answers here and we need to be discerning, and do our best in analysing all the evidence. >I did not say that the $75,000 grant was given to Bennewitz as part of a >"sting". You state, "What is more likely is that Bennewitz had developed >the means for intercepting electronic transmissions that were of great >interest to the Air Force." Except for the fact that I wrote that the >originating agency was actually the NSA, this is exactly what I >maintained! I think that you let yourself get so involved by what you >thought you read, that you didn't understand a major aspect of the case as >I tried to explain it. I agree, that it's important to demonstrate the role of different agencies and that these may have had conflicting agendas. Perhaps the NSA was interested in what Bennewitz had discovered, while AFOSI initiated a program of discrediting him. So there's a division of labor here between different intelligence agencies based on their primary functions. >You assume that the Air Force (as you say) wanted to find out what the >aliens were doing by using Bennewitz' expertise. If that was the case, all >they had to do was either copy his setup or confiscate his equipment. This >would not have been difficult, since he was convinced that he was in their >confidence. I followed the more likely scenario. However what if the Air Force (or more correctly the NSA as you point out) was constrained by certain agreements in place between extraterrestrials and government agencies? One of those agreements may have limited the degree to which the Air force could electronically monitor the base activities of the extraterrestrials. In the Charles Hall testimony we have a description of how the Air Force and an extraterrestrial race reached agreements that were followed to the letter at Nellis AFB. Perhaps something also happened at Archeluta/Dulce whereby a private civilian such as Bennewitz could supply intelligence that the agencies couldn't do themselves under the terms of an agreement. If Bennewitz and others are correct that extraterrestrials have reached agreements with covert government entitities, then it would be plausible that the terms of an agreement would be that there would not be electronic surveillance of the base. This would be similar to how a government opens an embassy in a foregin country and the agreement proscribes electronic surveillance of the embassy by the host nation. >Bennewitz was flown over the Archuleta Mesa on at least two occasions to >look at the supposed indications of an underground base there. The Air >Force had actually placed props on the ground to draw his attention to >this area and away from Kirtland Air Force Base. Why would they do this if >there really was a base under the mesa? Wouldn't they simply have told >Bennewitz that there was nothing of interest there? They knew that he was >contacting elected officials and news media about his concerns. It would >seem self-defeating let this secret out. Bennewitz was an electronics specialist that could trace the source of electronic transmissions. He traced these to the Archelutta Mesa and also had numerous sightings of UFOs in the Dulce area. I'm not sure of the prop story to divert Bennewitz's attention from Kirtland to the Archuleta Mesa/Dulce area. It sounds like a classic disinformation strategy to explain away how Bennewitz was interested in underground activities at Dulce. So I don't believe the Air Force placed props there as you were told presumably by Doty? It sounds like the kind of tale he would have weaved during his service. I would say you were too quick to accept this as the basis of Bennewitz's interest in the location of Dulce. >On the Art Bell program about a month ago, Richard Doty stated that he >knew the Roswell incident was a crashed alien craft. If it were not for >the fact that Doty is persona non grata in the UFO community, this would >have been greeted as a revelation. Was this a another ploy by Doty to keep >us listening to other lies he chooses to tell? He has been out of the Air >Force for over 10 years. What would be the purpose of such shenanigans? I >know many Ufologists will say that he still dances to his piper's tune, >and 'you never really retire from intelligence work', but this stretches >my own credulity. Besides, as I mentioned already, he was not the sole >source for the narrative of the book. I think this is a fair point. I don't know how best to deal with someone like Doty who has clearly played a role in disseminating disinformation. I know that Clifford Stone played a role in disseminating disinformation to a target concering an crash- retreival incident - a female UFO researcher. Stone later confessed to this and regretted it. Stone however claims he would have gone to the grave maintaining silence and his loyalty oath were it not for the death of his son. It seems that was the catalyst that turned him around. I don't know much about Doty and will read his book with Collins and listen to some of his interviews to understand his motivations and integrity in coming forward. I remain suspicious but will be open to the possibility that he is genuinely contributing to the UFO community rather than dancing to his old master's tune. >I realized that I didn't have much more to go on than most members of the >public, so I decided to follow the information I was given, and come up >with the most likely scenario. I am not a debunker or rabid skeptic. Far >from it. See: >www.excludedmiddle.com >for some of my earlier writings on the UFO subject. >To me, the evidence pointed at a disinfo campaign and little else. If >there is any reliable evidence for a joint human-alien base in Dulce >besides uncheckable testimony, I would like to see it. This is precisely the problem. How can one see "reliable evidence" of a highly classified project. Possessing such evidence is a crime and those even discussing the existence of such a project are violating national security. You and other UFO researchers speak casually about the need for 'verifiable evidence, yet don't appreciate the classified nature of the projects discussed by whistleblowers. I've come up with a list of ten right questions for whistleblowers that I recently distributed on the forum and which you can find online at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-30.htm >It is unfortunate that few of Bennewitz' photos of the area survive. Those >that do show nothing conclusive. Colleagues who saw his aerial photos at >the time could not pick out anything substantive, no matter how hard they >tried. >It seems to me that your concern stems from a core belief that the >alien-military alliance or at least interaction is a fait accompli. I >cannot subscribe wholeheartedly to a scenario for which there has been no >conclusive proof. It is very interesting to study and speculate, but >presently, an intellectual exercise is all we have. There is nothing wrong >with this, but there are much better issues available in which to plant a >basis in reality. I have reached the conclusion from the testimonies of a number of whistleblowers that the "alien-military alliance" exists. That is not a 'core belief but a result of reading numerous whistleblower testimonies since I became interested in the extraterrestrial hypothesis. My entry into the the UFO field was listening to Greer's Disclosure Project Press Conference in 2001. I was never interested in UFO sightings before that, but became interested in whistleblower testimonies about secret agreements, cover up of UFO sightings, secret committee system that oversees deep black projects that allegedly deal with EBEs, ETVs, etc. In the discipline of Political Science whistleblower testimonies are regarded very highly and studied closely to unravel what's happening in different government agencies. We even have Federal whistleblower protection laws in place in the US and many countries in recognition of the service whistleblower's play in ensuring tranparent and honest governance. In contrast, I found the UFO community regularly dismisses whistleblower testimonies - there is a rather large gray box in UFO research gathering dust with many precious jewels that have been forgotten. The treatment given to whistleblowers is a major omission by UFO researchers and hopefully explains why I'm on this forum and trying to give whistleblower testimonies the kind of recognition they deserve. >You suggest that I stained Bennewitz' memory by my treatment of him in >Project Beta. This is the opposite of my feelings and why I took great >pains to emphasize this in the book. That's why I dedicated it to him. >What I wanted to show was that even this brilliant man could be fooled by >his own tunnel vision and his ears tuned only to what he had already >decided was true, instead of weighing the evidence on a case-by-case >basis. I'm sorry but what you say here is what I principally objected to in your work. You refer to his "own tunnel vision" and his "ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true". Why is that not staining his memory? It seems that you have accepted all that Doty and Moore have revealed, with minor support of a number of others you interviewed, to paint what appears to be a compelling picture of Bennewitz as a brilliant yet deluded man. If you seriously considered the testimony of some of the whistleblowers I mentioned, you may have reached a different conclusion. I think that is what we owe Bennewitz who paid a high price for honestly reporting his findings to a very sceptical and hard nosed UFO community. >You contend that Moore announced his complicity in the disinfo campaign to >cover up for the fact that there actually _was_ an underground base. I >suppose that this is possible, but this tactic launches us even further >into speculation. >Project Beta deals with far more than the question of an underground base. >Divesting this subject from the rest of the book does the story, and my >research a disservice. We need to emphasize what is provable to >disinterested parties, based on something besides (or in addition to) the >testimony of whistleblowers. When we are dealing in human experience, i.e. >something with which we are all familiar - secret weapons, government >malfeasance, etc. - we can investigate claims based on a reality which is >widely accepted, but to apply this to the UFO question is an area which >has been problematic at best. I can't fault you for adopting a methodology that many in the UFO community accept as rigorous scientific research method. The field has been dominated by the methodology first created by pioneers such as Donald Keyhoe, Allen Hynek, Jim MacDonald, Richard Hall, Stanton Friedman, etc. My own exopolitical model is strongly resisted since it doesn't place much emphasis on the need for documentation and verifiable evidence. As you say, your book will be helpful for disinterested parties who seek verifiable evidence. However, it's in the unverifiable evidence that the truth will be found. That is something many increasingly are realizing and why whistleblowers need to have their testimonies seriously considered. >I did not read any of the other responses to your post before writing >this, so I apologize for any repetition of subjects, and thank those who I >am told have supported me. While you may feel my comments are perhaps an unwelcome spotlight on your methodological approach to the Bennewitz saga, I believe you have done him and others a service in resurrecting his case and bringing it to the attention of many in the UFO community. In that sense, I think your book succeeds admirably in bringing into the focus the challenges that confront us in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:41:38 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:48:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Balaskas >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen fuel >now proved absolutely possible: >http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion and is >it of any interest to The Disclosure Project and Greer? Hi Colin! If we took the Soviet solar cell technology that powered their manned Voskhod spacecraft and combined it with the U.S. fuel cell technology that powered their manned Gemini space capsule, our cosmonauts/astronauts could have been flying in such a hybrid powered spacecraft over four decades ago! Unfortunately, this solar cell/hydrogen gas fuel cell hybrid technology which was used to power the wheeled vehicle that Micah Hinton built as his high school science project could not readily be used to maneuver an orbiting spacecraft or to propel a man made UFO through space. Rocket or reaction type engines (maybe using the hydrogen and oxygen produced from the water if enough of it could be collected) would still be needed for that. Last year a physics professor colleague of mine returned from a trip to South Africa where she had students there assemble and operate such solar cell/hydrogen gas fuel cell powered cars that are identical to the one Micah Hinton built. She was kind enough to give me one of the kits that her students used for their projects which, by coincidence, I was going to put together and test myself this week! My colleague bought these kits in Germany where they are manufactured by Thames & Kosmos LLC. Can we expect to see such solar powered/fuel cell powered cars on our roads in the near future? That, I do not know. As long as the Sun keeps shining, there is much promise in such clean and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:50:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - White Re. that silver sphere in the google maps satellite photo, http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/12/ufo/ ... to me the fuzziness doesn't look like 'out of focus' fuzziness. The sphere itself does have a well defined outline, which it wouldn't if it were simply out of focus. One researcher who appeared on Strange Days... Indeed (Errol's Saturday night radio program out of CFRB and CJAD) described seeing something similar when he viewed (and I believe photographed) a UFO which was below the horizon from his vantage point. Sorry I can't remember who that was. Increasingly, it's beginning to look as if anti gravity involves strong and perhaps new field types which interact with gravity waves (per Tom Bearden for one) and it's quite likely that the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 New Phoenix UFO Video From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:03:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:55:55 -0400 Subject: New Phoenix UFO Video Check out a new UFO video at: www.ufosoverphoenix.com from a sighting last Thursday night - May 12, 2005 - over the Phoenix area. It's possibly a triangle or rectangular craft, rotating counter- clockwise, horizontally, inside a cloud possibly in some type of stealth mode. Watch it using the Pause/Play carefully and you can tell as the right side light disappears a left side light reappears. There's a shape to it as well. Evidently the actual video has much better detail, of course, as mentioned by Jeff Willes, the videographer and investigator at ufosoverphoenix.com. This compressed video leaves out some motion that's only seen on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Did UFOs Cause Blackout In Northern Chile? From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:35:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:58:53 -0400 Subject: Did UFOs Cause Blackout In Northern Chile? INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 16, 2005 Source: El Chanarcillo Date: March 30, 2005 Chile: Did UFOs Cause A Blackout In Northern Chile? Two objects traveling at high speed interrupted the electric supply in the city of Copiap=F3 and the commune of Caldera. Word is circulating in various sectors of the city of Copiap=F3 and the commune of Caldera that the blackout that plunged them into darkness on Wednesday between 20: 00 and 21:15 hours could have been "caused by the sudden transit of two UFOs" (unidentified flying objects). The situation has gained a certain measure of "credibility" when it considering that the blackout would have been caused by a malfunction at the 110,000 volt transmission facilities, which has been neither confirmed nor denied by the Atacama Power Utility (Empresa Electrica de Atacama), which has limited itself to saying "the problem is under investigation." Local resident Gonzalo Delgado, who flatly refused to be photographed "since they'd think I was a nut", told the El Cha=F1arcillo newspaper that "around 8 p.m. on Wednesday I was in the Cuesta de Cardone sector, hitchhiking my way back into the city. I suddenly realized that two objects crossed the sky at high speed and when I turned around to look at the city, I realized that it had vanished. That leads me to believe that it was at the time that the power failure occurred. Two trucks were also coming down the road at the same time, whose drivers could have also seen the phenomenon." He stresses that he thought long and hard about reporting what he had seen, since he feared being dismissed as a lunatic, "which I think would be unfair, since I did see the two luminous objects." The worker stressed that he could not "ascertain that the transit of those objects was responsible for the power failure, but if EMELAT is still investigating, what else could one think?" No official version of the case has been produced to this day, leaving the possibility of two UFOs being responsible for said blackout a complete mystery.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:09:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:42:18 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:39:04 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:35:40 EDT >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:23:58 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >>>http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm >>>Although less well known, there is a second part to the >>>Official History article. Part 2 addresses various questions >>>raised by ufologists and can be accessed at the following >>>hyperlink: >>>http://www.nickpope.net/official_history_pt_2.htm >>I was the one pointing out "odd discrepancies" in the >>history. The way it still reads now is that "publicity >>campaign" was the cause of Tizard's request to set up >>the Working Party <snip> >Brad, >Nobody within government will admit to being media-led, but >the fact of the matter is that both UFO sightings and media >coverage will have had a part to play. <snip> Hi Nick, Brad, et al The view implied by the NRA guide (i.e. that Tizard's suggestion was caused by media publicity) has also been implied by Dave Clarke in his article in the Fortean Times about the Flying Saucer Working Party, which stated: "Tizard felt the saucer sightings could not be simply dismissed as delusions, and demanded an investigation of the subject following a pro-saucer newspaper campaign backed by one of the most respected figures of the day, Lord Louis Mountbatten." See the relevant article online at: http://www.forteantimes.com/exclusive/DS7.shtml I don't recall any remarks in the documents relating to the Working Party which really establish the alleged connection, nor does the relevant article refer to supporting evidence. (David Clarke and Andy Roberts also discuss the Flying Saucer Working Party in their "Out of the Shadows" (2002) at pages 77-96 (in Chapter 6) of the Piatkus hardback edition, but again there is little discussion of the causes for Tizard's request). However, many other events in the history of the British Government's dealings with UFO reports for which documentation is available (which basically relates to a considerably later period than the Flying Saucer Working Party) are fairly clearly media-led - whether directly (i.e. responding to press or TV coverage of specific incidents or allegations) or indirectly (e.g. in response to questions being raised in Parliament, many of which relate to events that had been covered in the press or in UFO books). By the way, in relation to press coverage in the UK in 1950 (including, in particular, the serialisations of UFO books in Sunday newspapers in October 1950) is discussed in some detail by Waveney Girvan in his "Flying Saucers and Common Sense" (1955) at pages 50-54 (in Chapter 4) of the Frederick Muller hardback edition (with the same page numbering in the Citadel hardback edition). As you probably know, Girvan commissioned and published Gerald Heard's "The Riddle of the Flying Saucer" and also published Desmond Leslie and George Adamski's "Flying Saucers have Landed". At page 8 (in the Introduction) of his book, he modestly notes that "Perhaps better than any other private person in this country I can write of the subject and its impact upon the public mind...". His remarks in relation to the press coverage in England indicate that before August 1950 the press interest within England had increased to the point that Girvan was keen to get a book written on UFOs by an English author as soon as possible. Relevant remarks include the following: Page 45 (in Chapter 4): "My first step in 1949 was to subscribe to a newspaper cutting agency to send me anything they could discover where the words 'flying saucer' were used. To begin with these cuttings were not numerous in England. I do not know whether it was because the incidents were few or whether, in England, the saucers had not then received the publicity that was later to be theirs. However, in 1949 and 1950 the cuttings produced some interesting evidence. Not that there was, at that time, anything very startling, but one was able to learn quite a lot about the human reactions. Most of my cuttings at that time came from local papers: the national papers did not then pay much attention to the subject." Page 50: "The Spring of 1950 produced quite a good crop over this country, but it was quite over-shadowed by the mass of sightings that were being reported over the United States. It was at this time that the opinion grew that it was American mass-hysteria that was responsible. It was quite extraordinary how the English sightings, though they were comparatively few, were being ignored. My cuttings still arrived but they were, for the most part, from local and not from national papers". Page 50: "The stirring of some public interest spurred me to try [to get Gerald Heard to write a book on UFOs] again ... and a typescript arrived at my office in August 1950". Page 54: "On 8th October, 1950 two of the largest circulation Sunday newspapers were carrying articles on flying saucers prominently on their front pages. The result of the simulataneous appearances of these two serials, prominently featured, was to fling the subject so fiercely in the face of the public that the flying saucers could no longer be ignored".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:58:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:44:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Hatch >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >Self contained Electrically split water to hydrogen/oxygen fuel >now proved absolutely possible: >http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion and is >it of any interest to The Disclosure Project and Greer? Colin, Electrolysis was known way way back. Faraday formulated the first law of electrolysis in 1834. The effect itself is even older. http://www.answers.com/topic/faraday-s-law-of-electrolysis I'm still waiting to hear more about an electric generating device Greer announced on C-2-C radio one nite. He watched as the inventor set the prototype on a sidewalk and generated hundreds of watts of power, at standard AC voltage. Here is a transcript of the show, still on one of Greer's websites: http://www.seaspower.com/transcriptcoasttocoastJan312003.htm Greer mentioned certain investment opportunities, but I haven't heard about that lately. http://www.seaspower.com/Invest.htm As for solar cells, Gerald Pearson, Calvin Fuller and Daryl Chapin invented the first 'sun energy battery' in 1954. AT&T had commercial use for them about a year later. I think they are marvelous. We should use more of them. http://www.solarnavigator.net/solar_panels.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:55:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:06:55 EDT >Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:06:12 -0400 >>Subject: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >Larry, Errol, List, All, >I find this highly inflammatory, biased, and more importantly, >that it has nothing to do with UFOs! >>Like Their Counterparts at Wright-Patterson, Langley, and >>Lackland Air Force Bases, Officials at Andrews AFB Have No Right >>to Bomb the First Amendment! >>By Larry W. Bryant ><snip> >>A group of current/former U. S. servicemembers - known as the >>Ghost Troop (http://geocities.com/onlythecaptain/ ) - has found >>the "bloody knife" exposing the OFFICIALLY UNRELEASED number of >>Americans who died during the fierce battle at Iraq's capital in >>the spring of 2003. That number, of course, dwarfs the >>officially released count. To help determine the discrepancy's >>cause/perpetuators/accountability, the group is seeking all >>related documentary evidence and sworn testimony from all BOBCUP >>whistleblowers brave enough to come forward. Armed with your >>accounts, the group can help persuade Congress to exercise its >>oversight authority in this matter. Contact: Larry W. Bryant >>at:... >>At this point, were I the U. S. attorney assigned to represent >>the defendant in Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al., I'd submit my >>resignation forthwith - rather than countenance any form of >>viewpoint discrimination. >>What's worse for Amerika: being "anti-military," or being >>anti-First Amendment? >This is not a First Amendment issue. The base newspaper is the >commander's instrument for communication with the soldiers. It >operates under many of the same restrictions that a civilian >newspaper uses, but the commander is the publisher. Just as >civilian newspapers have the right to reject advertising they >find offensive, so does the base newspaper. We have all heard >stories that one network decided not to run an ad that another >found acceptable. No one retreated to First Amendment arguments >at that time. >Second, that ad is anti-military, especially after you read the >allegations raised on the web page that Bryant provides for us. >There certainly is no obligation for the base newspaper to run >an ad with that "spin" in it. (Even without the additional >information, the ad certainly seems to be anti-military.) >Finally, I notice that the man Bryant cites by pointing us to >the web site was not in Baghdad. His allegations are so much >speculation. However, I spent a great deal of time on the >Baghdad International Airport (known to the soldiers as BIAP) >and I saw nothing to support these claims of huge American >casualties. (I wonder here if the term casualties isn't >confused! It means wounded and missing as well as killed.) I >had the opportunity to review a great deal of information (some >of it classified) about the battle of Baghdad, and is simply >does not bear out these allegations. >I would suggest that Bryant take his fight with the government >about this into a different forum and leave this one to UFOs. Kevin Randle's protestation serves to remind me why I've chosen not to waste time and effort in trying to justify my existence to those who'd prefer that I disappear. Nevertheless, I now consider it my civic duty to respond to Kevin's ill-founded concerns: (1) The freedom-of-speech clause of the First Amendment to the U. S. Constitution exists not so much to protect non- inflammatory (read: orthodox) speech as to protect the "inflammatory" kind (read: unorthodox). Apparently, Kevin happens to be not the only (otherwise educated) citizen unfamiliar with that simple doctrine. (2) I of course claim no expertise as to what did or didn't happen (and why) during/after the Battle of Baghdad. I leave details of that matter to those interested in researching/debating it. The ad in question happens to be part of my whole series of whistleblower-solicitation ads aimed at the audience of military newspapers. That audience has a First Amendment right to receive those ads' content without any interference from the post/base commander. What's done (illegally) unto one such ad in the series is done unto them all - in terms of any official prior-restraint policy directed at them by the commander. All this First Amendment doctrine appears for anyone to see and digest within the complaints filed in the two cases of Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al. (3) Even as I speak, four USAF base commanders are stonewalling the recent prepublication-review submission of my ad "Blow the Whistle on the Neo-UFO Whistleblowers!" If they persist in this interference, they risk being cited for contempt of court - since their doing so violates terms of the consent judgment I won back in the late eighties during the course of my First Amendment lawsuit Bryant v. Weinberger, et al. The court's order requires all DoD officials to refrain from interfering with my submitted "UFO cover-up" whistleblower-solicitation ads. (4) As with any other form of speech critical of government policy/practice, "ANTI-military" speech (the opposite of PRO- military speech) deserves full protection of the First Amendment - especially when that speech occurs in a "designated public form" like the ad pages of military newspapers (an argument central to my case against Rumsfeld's public affairs community). (5) If Kevin now continues to fail to see the relevance of my Rumsfeld case to the politics of Ufology, then he has some more 9th-grade civics homework awaiting him.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Wanted SA UFO Spotters From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:03:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:03:06 -0400 Subject: Wanted SA UFO Spotters Source: News24.Com - Cape Town, South Africa http://tinyurl.com/9jfk9 17/05/2005 Wanted: SA UFO Spotters Craig Bishop Pietermaritzburg - If you've ever had an alien love child or seen a flying saucer then you're the ideal candidate for a South African panel of UFO experts. Co-ordinator of the South African Unidentified Flying Object Research Association, Val McCarthy, said the association desperately needed a fourth alien "experiencer" for its panel. "Aliens only appear to people who are spiritually evolved and who are responsible enough to spread their message," said McCarthy. And what is the message? "People must stop destroying the planet. Our actions affect other civilisations. We have to learn to live in harmony with mother earth," McCarthy explained. She said that she had encountered extra-terrestrial beings on three occasions and, as an amateur astronomer, was well- acquainted with 99 percent of all objects in the sky. She said that when she was 16 and living in Sandringham, in Johannesburg's northern suburbs, she had a sudden, strong "telepathic" urge to look out the window. "Then I saw them - orange, red and white lights erratically zig- zagging all over the sky. Then they obviously raised their vibrations and blinked out," she said. Plenty have been spotted She said her mother had seen a silent, cigar-shaped mother-ship complete with portholes. There have not been many UFO sightings on the African continent or, if there are, they don't make the news, according to one internet UFO site. Nevertheless, plenty of UFOs have been spotted from the Cape to KwaZulu-Natal. In 1989 late KwaZulu-Natal writer and Cambridge University physicist Elizabeth Klarer claimed to have had a child, Ayling, with her alien lover, Akon. She said Akon came from the planet Meton, some 4.2 light years from earth. Ayling would now be 46 years old and was, according to the most recent reports, an astrophysicist scouring the universe with his father, wife Clea and young son. Klarer brought back a ring, crystals and rocks and a fern from Planet Meton, which, according to UFO experts were found to be far older than anything on earth. Klarer's close friend, Pietermaritzburg UFO club founder, Kitty Smith, says people should not be scared of the unknown. She says she saw an alien ship while at Champagne Castle with her son, Greg, who was 13 at the time. Evidence will boost your chances Greg spent the rest of his time at Pietermaritzburg College with the nickname ET after giving a lecture on his experience. The most recent sighting in KwaZulu-Natal was in Zinkwazi, on the north coast at 15:30 on September 21, 1999, when a family saw a luminous object approaching from the north-east. Media quoted one of the family members as saying that they had seen a strange light travelling at an estimated 600 kmph at a height of 10 000 metres. The most recent sighting in South Africa was in George in the Western Cape on April 22, 2000 when a bright object was spotted approaching from the west. The South African Unidentified Flying Object Research Association panel is scheduled to be interviewed on SABC 3's Three Talk next month.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 17 Michael Salla From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:05:11 -0400 Subject: Michael Salla Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, and fellow Listerions, I appreciate the admirable efforts that have been made to educate Michael Salla with facts. Unfortunately, as I said in my last post, he listens but does not hear or understand. I am feeling a better strategy at this point would be not to waste any more efforts at pouring sense into a black hole. I feel at this point it may be best to just ignore him and move on in our endeavors. We are providing him an audience on this list for his absurdity. I can't tell anyone what to do or not to do but it is obvious that the lack of meaningful dialogue is leading nowhere. Dr. Salla, I don't like to refer to you in the third person but you are very removed from the more serious UFO investigators and we are getting nowhere. Entertain the people on your website who must be titillated by your line of thought. As my dad once
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:42:32 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:04:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:19:21 EDT >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 - Balaskas >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:27 -0400 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #20 - 2005 >>>Filer's Files #20 - 2005, >>>Skywatch Investigations >>>George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >>>Vice President of Skywatch International >>>May 11, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com >>Notice that in both photos the "UFO" seems to be at about the >>same elevation above the lunar horizon. From the shadows of both >>astronauts, the "UFO" is exactly between them and the Sun. Since >>the same type of camera was used on the surface of the Moon for >>Apollo 15 and 16, your unexplained large light is now explained. >>It is a camera created optical reflection artifact or image and >>not a real object. This is further supported by the many other >>lunar still pictures, some of which are also included in the >>same UFO Case Book web site. These other "UFOs" appears only in >>photos taken with approximately the same Sun angle. >>The astronauts did not make any references to or comments about >>their alleged encounters with UFOs on the Moon during their >>encounters while on the Moon or when they were debriefed back >>on Earth. Since these "UFOs" are absent in the live moving >>images that were seen by all here on Earth which were taken >>with a different camera and Sun angles, to me this is further >>evidence that these "UFOs" are really optical reflections. >>As for the picture of the Apollo 14 "UFO", I agree with you that >>this saucer shaped image it is very likely a reflection off the >>spacecraft window of something inside the darkened Apollo 14 >>Command Module. Apollo 8 and 13 astronaut Jim Lovell once told >>us of how one less experienced fellow astronaut was shocked to >>see such a similar UFO after waking up from sleep. It turned out >>to be the luminous dial of a watch on his arm floating in front >I asked Edgar Mitchell in private if he had seen a UFO on the >Moon. He answered, "Many of my fellow astronauts told me they >had seen them, and I believe them." He then stated, "I would >study the Dead Sea Scrolls because they contain the answers. Greetings George! Since the DSS include parts of every book of the Old Testament except Ester in addition to many other Judeo and pre-Christian writings, was Dr. Mitchell suggesting that UFOs have a Biblical rather than a solely extraterrestrial explanation? Although Dr. Mitchell is the founder of IONS and is very open minded about things such as UFOs and ETs, the testimony of fellow astronauts who have had experiences with UFOs would be much more compelling evidience to people than what his opinions as a non-witness and a believer are. The comments of the early Church Fathers, many of which are still untranslated into English, on things seen in the heavens or about the non-human beings that once occupied the Earth with us (and still do?) that I have recently found suggest to me that nearly all CE-III cases and abduction incidents can be better explained in terms of angels or demons than ET astronauts. >These photos may or may not show UFOs, and the best photos are >not revealed to the public. Are you suggesting that most of the space photos that seem to depict UFOs which are in the public domain can easily be explained and are thus IFOs? >Another friend watched at NASA while they air brushed out the >UFOs. It is my opinion they exist, and I attempt to show the >best evidence. I'm well aware some may be caused by more mundane >reasons. With our modern computers we can quickly and easily undistort space pictures, adjust the brightness levels and to join these images together seamlessly to create large panoramic maps. In the old days this was done with exacto blades and air brushes. Yes, they may have air brushed the odd unexplained spot in the sky over the Moon but did your friend see anything more extreme such as airbrushing of what could be a large ET outpost on the far side of some lunar crater? >I also know as fact that rooms full of UFO photos and data are >being withheld from the public because I was denied access by >my boss, four star General Catton. Although I briefed him >everyday on intelligence, it was felt I did not have a need to >know any specifics about UFOs. <snip> I learned about such UFO pictures here in Ottawa when I made inquiries with the photo analysis units with the Department of National Defense. Even UFO photos which were taken or sent voluntarily to DND by witnesses no longer officially exist! With the Cold War long over, I see little reason to continue to hide these UFO pictures. With the help of our elected representatives in government, I am trying to convince them to release all these still classified UFO photos for a special public exhibit at the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:07:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:13 -0400 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >Re. that silver sphere in the google maps satellite photo, >http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/12/ufo/ >... to me the fuzziness doesn't look like 'out of focus' >fuzziness. The sphere itself does have a well defined outline, >which it wouldn't if it were simply out of focus. >Increasingly, it's beginning to look as if anti gravity involves >strong and perhaps new field types which interact with gravity >waves (per Tom Bearden for one) and it's quite likely that the >fuzzing in that photo was due to an advanced field type rather >than out of focus. Hi Eleanor, The real analysis shows something less than an alien spacecraft. I agree with the work of the fewllow at the below links. http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ This link shows the realtive position of each sphere on the image. A nice rectalinear layout. http://www.flickr.com/photos/48556057.nul/13647471/ So the assessment that it is likely registration dots to match/patch images from different sources makes sense. The question is raised as to whether the images is actually a satellite images at all. I agree. If you look at Terraserver you will see that the images with the most detail are aircraft flyover images (usually over urban areas). So, without the original image, I wouldn't imagine to claim its an image of an alien craft.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Baiata From: Maurizio Baiata <maurizio.baiata.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:08:28 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:14:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Baiata >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:57:53 -0300 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:51:18 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>>>Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:58:35 -0300 >>>>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> Hi Everybody, Please forgive me, but I feel is time for me to take a stand here, in view of the unfolding debate regarding the late Col. Philip James Corso and the late Dr. Michael Wolf. In view, also, of the closing words by Stanton Friedman in his last response to Michael Salla. Stan has used the key words "In Irritation" and this is a type of language, for me - a journalist since 1977 in both Italy and United States, where in New York City I spent seven long years of my life - that discloses the real attitude of this man, Stanton Friedman, if somebody dares to have an open confrontation with him. It occurred to me several times, in San Marino, in Brasilia, in many other occasions to find out about this problem. Strangely, Friedman well deserves to be highly respected worldwide in our field of research, but when it comes to the so-called "whistleblowers", after 3-4-5 shots, he looses his temper and the venom of "irritation" comes from his mouth. I'd like to talk about Corso, leaving Michael Wolf out of this for the moment. We know that Corso was in Italy during the very diffucult years between (under his assignment in Europe between April 13 1943 and March 22 1946) as liason for the Allied secret service in Rome. According to his book "The Day After Roswell" while in Rome he had a chance to meet some Italian scientists, namely Gislero Flesh, Casimiro Frank and Aldo Castellani. Have you ever heard of them, Stan? In fact professor Aldo Castellani (Florence 1874-Lisbon, Portugal 1971) was a very famous bacteriologist and pathologist either in Italy and abroad (Ceylon, London, Tulane, New Orleans). Now, you do your homework and find out a little more about Castellani, I'm taking his data from the Italian De Agostini Enciclopedia as a clue for you. In fact, with regard to Gislero Flesch I was able to trace something in the archives of the Political Police Division, fascist regime, where between 1933 and 1936 a file on him was held, because of his alleged anti-fascist sympathies. His real name was Isvaro. As in the police files, Flesch was a journalist, connected to his stepfather, prof. Casimiro Frank. Sure: this guy, Casimiro Frank (born in Warsaw, Poland, September 10, 1887) arrived in Rome in the year 1912 from Munich, Germany) and he was Head of Research in the Psycobiotherapic Institute in Rome and he was professor of neuropathology in the University of Rome. Again, seems to me that, with regard to some relevant points about Philip Corso's background, Stanton Friedman and many others with him, know very little. Maybe, a more humble attitude would help. Next chapter, as far as I'm concerned with Michael Wolf, very soon. Let me scan first the photos of the diplomas of Michael Wolf, shot in Michael's home in Hartford, Connecticut, and given to me by my precious friends Paola Harris and Adriano Forgione.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:46:32 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:16:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Stevenson >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:58:12 -0400 >Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:38 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >>Self contained Electrically split water to >hydrogen/oxygen >>fuel now proved absolutely possible: >>http://tinyurl.com/dbegq >>Could this be the methodology used by ET for propulsion and >>is it of any interest to The Disclosure Project and Greer? >This is a brief newspaper story about a high school sophmore's >science project. Would anybody seriously say it "proves" >anything? Have we lost our minds? Hi Greg and List Just thought if the device can, as hinted on that web, run with a rechargable battery instead of the solar panel then it could be scaled up although l dont know how it works at all. Also as most UFOs are said to have high-speed spinning areas and the spinning part could easily generate electricity, the battery would not even be required. Big Tree's from little Aacorns grow..... Kind regards and keep happy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:51:20 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:19:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Gonzalez Almost _four_ years ago, Katharina Wilson wrote: >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:16:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Wilson >There is a scientifically based, >double blind electronic monitoring of abductees going on as we >speak, but I was asked to keep the details private until the >experiment was completed, so we all have something very >interesting to look forward to on that front. One year ago, Nick Pope informed us about Professor Chris French scientific study into the alien abduction phenomenon. I also remember a comment, maybe by Dick Hall, about another scientific study into the alien abduction without much more data. Well, I am a little upset about all those experiments that never
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:22 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:38:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Salla >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:11:40 EDT >Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:28:53 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:37:10 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:07:21 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:55:40 EDT >>>>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:06:56 -1000 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >First, let me apologize for the delay. I had another assignment >arise and just had no Internet capability while out of pocket. I >am ready to pick up the gauntlet again. Aloha Kevin, I'm glad you are back. I've picked up my Lei and am ready for our exchange. >><snip> >>>This presupposes that the testimonial evidence from the >>>Disclosure Project and the documentary evidence in the MJ-12 >>>documents can be trusted. I'm suggesting that neither source can >>>be trusted and therefore any reliance on them as a basis to >>>argue for a hard cover up is flawed in the beginning. >>I don't think it's helpful to use the concept of 'trust' in >>order to assess different sources of evidence, especially when >>it comes to whistleblowers. What we have are different sources >>of evidence which we analyse and rank according to a number of >>criteria, eg., whistleblowers, majestic documents, contactees, >>witnesses, etc. Some sources will receive a higher ranking than >>others and therefore higher degree of consideration. That means >>there's a need to be flexible. Using an either-or approch >>unnecessarily simplifies the process since it tries to reduce >>all sources into two categories that which we 'trust and that >>which we 'don't trust'. That's a methodological error and based >>on the mistaken emphasis on 'hard evidence'. >Rather than engage in semantics here, I'll just change the word >trust to reliable. I will instead write, "This presupposes that >the testimonial evidence from the Disclosure Project and the >documentary evidence in the MJ-12 documents is reliable. I'm >suggesting that neither source is reliable and therefore any >reliance on them as a basis to argue for a hard cover up is >flawed in the beginning." >And I have no objection to creating a reliability scale for this >alleged evidence of the hard cover up. But the point remains. If >the MJ-12 and the Disclosure project are unreliable, or have a >low credibility, then using them to support your argument >actually weakens it. I'm glad you agree that a scale might be helpful. I don't quite follow your point when you say that using sources from MJ-12 and/or whistleblowers actually weakens one's argument. The whole point of a scale is to assess different sources of evidence, not prejudge them simply because you have a bias against undocumented sources. The more sources one uses to build a case, the stronger it gets. If an extensive number of whistleblowers say similar things about the way classified projects involving EBEs/ETVs are run, that strengthens one's argument. You are suggesting the opposite which is counter intutive. >><snip> >>>I was very interested in those claims, talked to Dean and Stone, >>>and even received a letter from Corso's doctor and had >>>conversations with Robert Brines, his co-author. I looked for >>>corroboration of their tales but found them wanting. It is >>>interesting that their lack of proof for their claims is >>>considered proof by others. Their records have been altered, >>>their documentation has been stolen, and they have been >>>intimidated by this vast conspiracy to silence them. >>>Interestingly they suggest the government would stop at nothing >>>to silence them, and Stone even talks about being taken from his >>>home with weapons pointed at him, but he's still alive to make >>>his charges" all with no evidence that any of this happen. >>I can see your point and agree that this is a major problem for >>UFO/exopolitical researchers. When you have well credentialled >>individuals coming forth with extraordinary claims with no hard >>evidence to back them up, then one can say there's no proof. >I'm not even sure you can call some of these individuals "well- >credentialled." The claim, by implication, is that anyone with >a military record has good credentials. Military service does >not convey some sort of extraordinary reliability on an >individual. We need something more before we begin to accept so >many outrageous claims (and yes, I used the word outrageous here >on purpose). Long military service records indicate a certain stability of character, ability to perform responsible duties and the kind of honor and integrity system that goes in the military. While I'm a 'peace researcher' by profession and reject violent solutions to conflicts, I find military values of honor, integrity and discipline much more a measure of character that the kinds of values generated in consumerist societies. Many still believe that military training helps build character especially for the younger generation. So there's a cultural appreciation that military personnel are more likely to posses the kinds of qualities that we look for in whistleblowers, integrity, veracity, honesty, etc. I am prepared to generalize that the general public are more likely to believe military whistleblowers with long service records as individuals more likely to be telling the truth when blowing the whistle on egregious government policies. I have find all the military whistleblowers I have spoken with are exceptional individuals. Integrity counts especially when it comes to assessing extraordinary claims that have little if any documentary or hard evidence to back them up. >>Furthermore, when researchers encounter claims that the 'proof' >>has been removed, of intimidation of whistleblowers, of >>corroborating witness harassment, etc., having occurred, then >>this presents testimonial evidence that a 'hard cover' up is >>underway. >What evidence do you have that "proof" has been removed? How >in the world could you ever prove something like that? In the >various records I have seen (Corso and Stone to mention just two) >there is no evidence they have been altered. Instead, we have >documents that suggest that both men have been less than honest >with researchers. >But, since their claims are not borne out by the record, you now >suggest that those discrepancies are evidence of the hard cover >up. I suggest they are evidence that the men are less than >honest. Your argument presupposes the reliability of the very documents that I'm calling into question. I'm saying that documentary sources are unreliable because they can be removed, changed or not reflect an individuals true service record. This happened with Sgt Stone whose work with the Nuclear Biological and Chemical Rapid Response team was not included and instead an entry was made that he only received generic training as a clerical typist as you have pointed out. I'm calling documentary sources into question and claiming they aren't reliable in cases of individuals serving in deep black projects. You are making the contrary claim that because the documents don't have references to the alleged training of the individuals for such projects that they are "less than honest with researchers". Your reliance on documents from military or government sources to ascertain whether individuals are telling the truth when claiming to have worked in deep black projects is counter intuitive. A hard cover up exists since it is the logical policy response to national security threat posed by extraterrestrial visitors whose motivations and activities are not known. Your own research into the Roswell Crash and Project MoonDust support the ETH. But you don't support the logical national security implications of your own research. That's inconsistent. >>What you have provided is an example of the kind of >>testimonial evidence that whistleblowers such as Stone give of >>being physically threatened for revealing information. You ask, >>where's the physical evidence or proof that Stone was harasssed, >>and physical evidence removed? I think it should be clear that >>if such a process is occuring, as Stone and other whistleblowers >>suggest, such hard evidence will hard to find. Yet we have the >>whistleblower's testimony, their credibilty in terms of service >>records and responsible positions, and other information they >>may provide substantiating both their claims about ETs, and >>their claims of being harassed. >So, once again, we're required to fall back to the point that >their testimony is reliable because of their long service. They >need to offer nothing in the way of independent corroboration >because such corroboration would be difficult to find, and that >the lack of corroboration is, in fact, evidence that they are >telling the truth. Talk about a circular argument. Perhaps we can reframe the discussion here. You are thinking in binary terms of whistleblower testimonies being reliable or unreliable. I'm using a multivalent logic that suggests that we have a number of intermediate positions. We can accept that whistleblowers have sufficient credibility in terms of their integrity, coherence and consistency to work with their testimonies. That's want I'm ultimately arguing for here. Give whistleblowers their due by investing some intellectual capital into analysing the consequences of their testimonies, and cross referencing these to paint a picture of what's happening in the covert world. We'll never get there if we meticulously document all research conclusions about UFOs/ETs for the simple reason that documents can be altered or removed as a condition of employment for those involved in deep black projects. >>I have made a case that a 'hard cover up' is an underlying >>premise that needs to be considered by the UFO researcher. This >>is the most logical conclusion of the overwhelming evidence that >>the government has initiated a cover up, and secretly >>institutionalised a process for dealing with UFO/ET affairs. I >>think if you use a polititical science methodology similar to >>the social contract theory advocated by John Rawls in a Theory >>of Justice, you will find that the end result of a rational >>decision making process for a set of rational decision makers is >>a secretly institutionalised process for managing ET/UFO affairs >>since the underlying premise is that the UFO/ET issues presents >>the most dire national security threat confronting the US and >>other countries. That's the most logical outcome of a purely >>rational process which supports my contention that an a 'hard >>cover up' exists. That means that when whistleblowers such as >>Stone discuss aspects of the 'hard cover up', physical threats, >>etc., then these are consistent with the premise that a 'hard >>cover up' is a logical policy response to the ET/UFO presence. >>This doesn't prove their claims, but it enables us to seriously >>consider them and use them in conducting an exopolitical >>analysis, despite the absence of proof. >So we argue in a circle again. The fact there is no proof is >proof that the cover up exists. No proof can be found because it >has been removed. The cover up is well documented by many researchers including yourself. I don't have to prove it since there has been ample investigation demonstrating that the evidence is being covered up. Our disagreement stems in the degree to which the cover up is conducted. You support a 'soft cover up' whereas I contend a 'hard cover up' exists. >><snip> >>>>Corso begins his book, The Day After Roswell, by clearly stating >>>>that he was a Lt-Colonel who headed up the Foreign Technology >>>>Desk for a two year period in the 1960s. I don't have access to >>>>his military records so I can't confirm or deny what happened >>>>upon his retirement and the details of his promotion. >><snip> <snip> >>>In his proposal, he included some sample chapters including >>>something he called a "Precede" in which he writes about his UFO >>>experiences, and then signs it, "P.J. Corso, Colonel, USA, Ret." >>>Again, he just wasn't a colonel though he represented himself as >>>such. >>I think his long military service record is the basis of his >>credibility, and he rightly claims he was a Lt-Col when he >>became chief of the Foreign Technology Division. The absence of >>evidence of his promotion from Lt-Col to Col upon retirement is >>something that I consider to be a red herring designed to shift >>attention from the thrust of his claims concerning his role in >>the dissemination of ET technology. Absense of evidence doesn't >>mean it didn't happen. >First, I believe that inflation of one's credentials, such as >claiming a higher rank, is significant. In the recent past >people have lost their jobs for claiming positions and education >they didn't have. Nearly every week we read about someone who >has done just that. Corso did that by claiming to be a colonel >when he was a lieutenant colonel. Since Corso's military service record is not in the public domain I can't confirm what's in it and have to rely on statements from his book and interviews. He clearly refers to the highest rank he achieved while on active service as Lt Col. That was also the rank he possessed while working and/or heading the Foreign Technology desk at the Pentagon from 1961 to 63. What subsequently happened upon his retirement in terms of his rank and how that is reflected in his service record is not very clear. If he claims that he was promoted in the reserves and if this is somehow not recorded in his service record, then the most plausible explanations are: 1. promotions in the reserves are recorded differently than promotions while on active service; or 2. that it was removed from his record prior to the publication of his book. Either is possible since Corso was only revealing as much as he felt he was being 'permitted' to do. Corso was part of an acclimation program to prepare the public for possible UFO disclosure. >Second, this absence of evidence rule doesn't apply here. It was >Corso who made the claim and it is Corso's responsibility to >prove it, not mine to disprove it. In some cases absence of >evidence is, in fact, evidence of absence. >What you are suggesting here is that we ignore a serious claim >by Corso that has not been proven to be accurate. You are >suggesting that such a claim is of little importance while I >suggest that it suggests something about the man's character. In case you don't recall, Corso is dead and his son no longer responds to UFO researchers to clarify these matters. Corso's central claims concern what occured while he was on active military duty as a Lt Col in the Pentagon. What happened in his retirement is not of public interest and only a peripheral issue since there is presently no way to determine what happened. You seem to delight in discrediting a man who cannot defend himself from your allegations. I think we need to focus on his central claims rather than red herrings designed to distract us from the ET technology that he allegedly disseminated into the private arena. >>There is also the possibility that his >>service record was purposely altered to create some >>Inconsistencies - but of course in your ideal world of UFO >>scientific research using empirical methods, such Machiavellian >>methods don't happen. >The real question would be why alter his records about this? >There is no purpose in it. Yet, if he was promoted upon >retirement, he would have been given such records and there >would be photographs of the promotion, yet none exist. All he >could offer was a lame excuse about the situation, which, in and >of itself is quite telling. Records are altered to discredit whistleblowers if they reveal information concerning classified projects concerning EBEs or ETVs. Since Corso was revealing information about both, then there would be reason for his records to be altered. >><snip> >>>>As far as I'm aware, Corso never claimed to be a member of MJ- >>>>12, he just referred to its existence and composition. >>>In the proposal for his book he writes, "recounts the continuing >>>reports of UFO activity that passed through Eisenhower's White >>>House, when the author was on assignment there, to the staff of >>>MJ-12." That sounds like a fairly blatant claim that Corso was a >>>member of MJ-12" a claim that did not make it into the final >>>version of his book. >>You have misread what the passage suggests. Corso informed us >>that he served on the staff of MJ-12 when he was at the White >>House. I think that MJ-12, is similar to a Congressional >>Committee, e.g., the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, that >>has staffers appointed to serve the Commitee. If one is on >>assignment to the staff of a Senate Committee, for example, then >>that doesn't make one a Senator, one is just a staff member. >You might have missed the point. He claimed he worked for MJ-12. >He claimed he was on the staff. While he might not have been one >of the twelve, he was making a claim about his association with >MJ-12 that was not true. Here is a significant discrepancy that >you have decided to ignore with some analogy that doesn't quite >work. What point did I miss? You claimed he was a member of MJ-12 and I corrected you. Now you say he worked for MJ-12 which is a more accurate description of his true role as a staffer. Now why do you say it was not true that he worked for MJ-12? I suppose you will say that since there is no documentation supporting his claim of having been on the staff of MJ-12, then there's nothing to substantiate his allegations. I see you are a true believer in finding documentation to validate any claims made by whistleblowers, even working for MJ-12. Do you truly believe that staff members working for MJ-12 will have a documentation trail available to the general public for verification purposes. I think MJ-12 is a little smarter than that. >>>>Corso discussed the circumstances surrounding his use of Strom >>>>Thurman foreword in an interview with Michael Lindeman - see: >>>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/roswell018.html >>>>Corso claims he told Thurman of the UFOs he discussed in his >>>>book and that Thurman nevertheless agreed to write the foreword >>>>for the Day After Roswell and understood it was about UFOs. It's >>>>likely that during his employment service for the former Senator >>>>he discretely divulged some of the projects he worked on despite >>>>his alleged vow to Lt Gen Trudeau to not go public. Thurman may >>>>have written the foreward as a favor to a former close advisor >>>>but once his staffers discovered what was in Corso's book, they >>>>quickly rescinded permission for the foreword to be used. >>>Yet in his proposal letter he said that Thurmond had written a >>>glowing introduction to his book "I Walked with Giants: My >>>Career in Military Intelligence." That introduction was then >>>used for his Roswell book" before Thurmond and his aides >>>insisted that it be removed. Switching the story and the >>>introductions around does not speak well of Corso. >>As I said earlier, Corso spoke to Thurman about UFOs and >>Informed him that was the subject of his new book. Just because >>Thurman's aides persuaded Thurman to withdraw the preface, >>doesn't mean Corso was being disingenous here. >No, it is quite clear in his proposal for his book that the >introduction written by Thurman was for a different book. Why is >there no mention of Roswell or UFOs in that introduction? Why >were Thurman and his staff so outraged when they learned the >truth, if the Senator knew this in the beginning? It certainly >does mean that Corso was being disingenuous here. How many times >do we need to find something like this before you begin to think >that maybe the guy just wasn't who he claimed to be? If you read the interview with Michael Lindeman whose URL I provided above, it's quite clear that Corso claims he told Thurman the book was about UFOs. So what happened subsequently was a result of Thurman's staffers withdrawing the preface rather than Thurman himself denying his approval. Do you really expect me to believe that in Corso's proposal he describes Thurman having written a a preface for another book that Corso was intending on using for the Day After Roswell? That is inconsistent with what he says in the Lindeman interview. I think you are clutching at straws in trying to make your case that Corso can't be trusted because of the Thurman preface issue >>>>As for the veracity of the photos in Corso's books, I don't know >>>>where you got your information that they are "well known fakes". >>>>There may be considerible controversy about them, but that >>>>doesn't make them fakes. I don't know about Kaufman and the >>>>incident you are referring to. As for the alleged convoy through >>>>Ft Riley, the 'friend' was in fact the sergeant on guard duty >>>>and had peered into the contents of the boxes he was guarding. >>>>The Sergeant had some time invited Corso to join a bowling team >>>>so that was the basis of their relationship. Corso was a Major >>>>at the time and the Sergeant an NCO, so it's a bit of a stretch >>>>to say he was Corso's friend. >>>The picture in his book, labeled, "Lt. Col. Corso was never able >>>to confirm the veracity of the following purported UFO >>>surveillance photos, which were in Army Intelligence files as >>>support material for the R&D project to harvest Roswell Alien >>>technology for military purposes." The picture under that >>>caption is of a domed disk flying over some hills. Ed Ruppelt >>>identified it as a 1935 Ford hubcap. Look magazine, in 1966, >>>identified it as a hoax and provided the name of the >>>photographer who admitted it was a hoax. Guy B. Marquand, Jr., >>>said that he was sorry to disillusion people and that "I was 21 >>>years old at the time and just having fun." >>I recall being told a story by Wendelle Stevens about George >>Adamski responding to Coral Lorenson's abrasive question 'how >>did you do it? (fake his flying saucer photos'). Adamski said >>that he picked up a hub cap and threw it into the air, and then >>took some pictures. Lorenson said 'thanks' and then proceeded to >>condemn Adamski as a fraud. He was pulling her leg but she took >>him seriously. Corso would undoubtedly have known about the 1966 >>Look article and Ruppelt's asssessment of the photo, but still >>went ahead to include it in his book. Personally, I'd say if >>Corso was suggesting it was real despite the Look article and >>Ruppelt's assessment, I'd be inclined to accept Corso's >>judgement over someone who alleges to be the photographer >>recanting his testimony. It seems you have more faith in a self- >>confessed liar "having fun" than the judgement of a former Lt >>Col in the US Army. >Let me get this straight. We have the editors of LOOK saying the >picture is faked? and they have no reason to make that claim >unless they believe it. We have Ed Ruppelt claiming it was >faked? and we have no reason to suspect his honesty, especially >when we look at his record as the Chief of Blue Book. And we >have the guy who took the picture saying he faked it. Given all >that, you'd rather believe that Corso was right? This I just >don't get. What else would you expect the editors of LOOK to say if the photographer claimed it was something he contrived out of fun? As for Ruppelt's statement, I don't know enough about the context. Ruppelt had few resources during his brief reign as Project Blue Book chief and Project Blue Book researchers were well known for coming up with spurious explanations for all sorts of UFO phenomenon. If someone thought it COULD be a hub cap, then that was duly recorded as an explained UFO. That was the quality of Project Blue book investigations. Perhaps this is all Ruppelt based his observation on. >And yes, in this case, I have more faith in the photographer, >the editors of LOOK and Ed Ruppelt than I have in Corso. (And I >won't even mention the background of Wendelle Stevens.) I've had some discussions with Wendelle Stevens and think he's a first rate researcher that has paid a steep price for his integrity in bringing out the truth of his research into human- extraterrestrial contacts. Those who malign him do a disservice to the complexity of the ET phenomenon but that's a discussion that deserves its own thread rather than discussing in this already lengthy one. >>>It was Kaufmann and Corso on Coast-to-Coast talking about their >>>experiences with these highly classified projects, spilling >>>their guts for the world. What struck me was that Corso never >>>disagreed with Kaufmann in a conflict of points, but always >>>bowed to him because Kaufmann claimed to have been on the >>>original retrieval. Kaufmann has been found to be a fraud, >>>inventing his tale. Seems to me that Corso would have known >>>that, had he been who he claimed to be. >>I don't know enough about Kaufmann to respond about his >>legitimacy as a researcher. I don't see why you would assume >>that if Kaufman were a fraud, Corso should have known about it. >>Corso left military service in 1963 and apparently ceased to >>have a further role in the world of UFOs, crash retrievals. As >>far as I can tell, Corso claims to have played a role in >>disseminating ET technology, he never claimed to possess >>omniscience about UFO researchers and witnesses. >Because Corso, is he was who he claimed, he would have seen the >holes in the Kaufmann tale. But rather than challenge him, Corso >bowed to him. It suggests that Corso had no sort of >extraordinary knowledge. Corso's claim to extraordinary knowledge occurred from 1961-63, and perhaps during his service to the MJ-12 committee while in the NSC. I don't know enough about Kaufmann to determine his integrity and what Corso really thought about him. >>>I read Corso's claim about his friend and understood that Corso >>>was a major and the friend a sergeant who had invited Corso to >>>bowl with his team. However, it's also a stretch to understand >>>how a convoy leaving Roswell would pass close to Ft. Riley on >>>its way to Wright Field in Ohio, or how an NCO, a sergeant of >>>the guard, would be out among the classified boxes or why he >>>would be digging through them. This is a serious breach of >>>security, not to mention the fact that the boxes should have >>>been in a locked area with guards posted outside it, not inside, >>>going through the material. >>I think that this was the first time that an EBE had been >>shipped by the US Army/Air Force. Their security procedures were >>probably lax to begin with, but later amended to the standards >>you suggest. >Oh, please. Maybe lax. Amended later? They had been dealing with >classified material for years. Take out the alien body and put >in, oh, I don't know, transport of the Norden Bombsite during >World War II and you have the same thing. Transportation of >highly classified material over the road. So, the procedures >wouldn't have been lax? except in Corso's warped version of >the truth. (And yes, I used the word warped on purpose.) I think the procedures for dealing with classified exoplosive material and extraterrestrials would have been very different to start with. I doubt many servicemen would have the inclination to look into a crate filled with explosives, but an EBE may be a different matter. Servicemen have curiosity after all. >>>I suppose it will do no good to point out that the FBI (another >>>of those hated government institutions that lie about everyone) >>>noted, about Corso, "He has been a thorn in our side because of >>>self-initiated rumors, idle gossip and downright lies he has >>>spread to more or less perpetuate his own reputation as an >>>intelligence expert." >>I agree, it doesn't help your case to reference the FBI as a >>truthful source for the credibility of Corso. >Clearly you don't recognize sarcasm when you read it. Here is >just one more assessment that suggests Corso was not only >telling tales about his UFO experiences, but he had a history of >doing that about a variety of subjects. In those other cases, >everyone recognized what he was. In the UFO field, he becomes a >"whistleblower" to be acknowledged rather than just one more >crank with a wild story. So Corso is a crank because the FBI put out a story that Corso couldn't be trusted. You are truly clutching at straws here in support of your weak efforts to dismiss Corso's credibility. >>>Corso claimed in a sworn statement that one of his Army >>>assignments had been to the National Security Council during the >>>Eisenhower Administration and that he attended NSC meetings. >>>Stan Friedman checked with the Eisenhower Library and was told >>>that such claims were false. Of course, this is just another >>>government agency changing the records. >>It's very possible that the Eisenhower Library lacked records to >>substantiate Corso's claims. This absence could be explained in >>a number of ways, incomplete records, Stan not having access to >>the right files, altered records, etc. This doesn't prove that >>Corso's claims were false, they just couldn't be substantiated. >>I get the sense you are fishing for ways to discredit Corso, and >>want to avoid looking at possibilities that migh explain some of >>the discrepancies in his testimony. Corso's military credentials >>are impressive, he worked as the head of the Army's Foreign >>Technology Department, worked as a Congressional Aid to Senator >>Thurman, and has made extraordinary claims about ET technology. >>I don't see why analysing the (exo)political implications of >>Corso's testimony is so strongly resisted by members of the >>forum who focus on whatever minor inconsistency they can find in >>Corso's military records or statement. It seems you advocate >>focusing on the ABC's of UFO research, and don't want to reach >>the X,Y,Z, where exopolitical analysis begins. > >Yeah, the Eisenhower Library lacked the records to substantiate >Corso's claim, not because those records were incomplete, but >because they never existed in the first place. Here is another >significant discrepancy that you choose to ignore by saying >maybe, possibly, perhaps, but have no evidence to even begin a >simple investigation, other than the word of a man who has been >caught several times making false claims. As I've pointed out in the thread with Stan, the Eisenhower library can only permit access to unclassified documents. If Corso did serve on the staff to MJ-12 as a representative for Eishenhower, then it's clear that records of his attendence would still be classified. So why focus on the Eisenhower Library as a source of documentation on Corso who allegedly worked for MJ-12 while at the NSC? >><snip> >>I think your style is similar to a court room attorney who wants >>to shift from an examination of substantive issues to witness >>credibility. You point out some minor inconsistencies which lead >>to your evaluation that the witness is not reliable, and that >>their testimony should be discarded. That's a time honored legal >>strategy that works well enough in a judicial system that >>operates on transparency and legitimate legal processes, but is >>seriously inadequate for whistleblower testimonies in a national >>security environment where the bulk of hard evidence is >>classified, and where there is ample reason to believe a 'hard >>cover up' is underway. I have seen no evidence that you are >>willing to explore the implications of the whistleblower >>testimonies offered by Corso since you offer as the threshold >>for such consideration satisfaction of minor inconsistencies >>that I and likely many others view to be red herrings. >And I have seen no evidence that you will even consider cogent >arguments if they don't conform to your already preconceived >notions and rigid belief structure. Any evidence to the contrary >is dismissed by suggesting my style is similar to a courtroom >attorney, as if this is something bad. But the truth is, if >someone lied about his credentials, made false claims, and >offered no proof for his tales in one arena, then we can expect >the same in another. I offer the evidence for this and you >simply dismiss it out of hand. I've looked closely at your arguments and have found nothing compelling in them. Your arguments that Corso is being "less than honest' are red herrings. You appear to be intent on shifting attention away from Corso's claims concerning the ET technology he disseminated into the private sector while working at the Foreign Technology Department at the Pentagon. Since that's a position he clearly held, then surely the possibility that he distributed such technology is the key issue here; rather than questions over Strom Thurman's foreword; Corso's promotion to Col in the reserves; a controversial photo in his book, deferring to Kaufman; etc., all red herrings that get us nowhere. ><snip> >>>Now, we have Stone carrying some with a top secret cover sheet >>>through his living room. That is pure showboating because you >>>just don't transport top secret material that way. He was attempting, >>>through this little show, to prove how important he was. It was >>>the same thing, pointing out the sticker on his car and suggesting >>>that officers had blue stickers and he had a blue sticker. It was an >>>attempt to increase his credibility by suggesting he was something >>>that he was not. Neither of these points is trivial, as you suggest. >>You are overreaching in your inferences here. An individual's >>behavior when dealing with classified material may be influenced >>by a range of factors that may account for his behavior. Just >>because Stone was handling what he claimed to be classified >>material in a way you consider to be cavalier, doesn't mean it >>wasn't what he claimed it to be. Whistleblowers by definition >>are mavericks who are dissatisfied with rules, procedures and >>policies that restrict information on ETs/UFOs. >An individual's behavior when dealing with classified material >is influenced by the law. If Stone was carrying classified >material (meaning top secret) material through his house, then >he was going to jail and these hard cover up guys would need to >do nothing other than charge him with mishandling classified >material. Look what happened to the guy in Los Alamos who they >just suspected of mishandling classified material. I agree that those carrying classified material can go to jail if caught. If Stone is correct that he possesses such material, then it's very likely that he is part of a secret acclimation program in case of a catastrophic breakdown in secrecy. As you might appreciate, one needs to plan for the contingency that the secrecy system collapse due to uncontrollable events - ETs landing on the White House lawn, a disclosure announcement by a major Western nation, etc. So whistleblowers like Stone are allowed to come forward and hold on to some classified material. >>As for pointing out to you the color of the sticker on his car, >>there may be a number of explanations. Stone may have been >>alluding to preferential treatment he was receiving due to his >>alleged background. Again, I see the same pattern in your >>evaluation of Stone, pointing out minor inconsistencies in his >>story and claiming that when you add them all up, he has no >>credibility. The implication being that we shouldn't consider >>his testimony as anything upon which UFO/Exopolitics researchers >>might benefit in understanding alleged crash retrievals. >No, Stone was attempting to tell me that he was really an >officer, not knowing that I understood the system. This is a >significant embellishment that goes to the credibility of the >witness. I am aware that Stone was assigned an individual who referred to Stone as Colonel. Stone nowhere states that he completed officer training and indeed claims that he refused to attend 'the School' - an elite secret instituation for training military personnel in the whole range of extraterrestrial related material. Stone claimed graduates of such a school were too elitist for his liking. So all Stone is claiming is that he was given privileges normally according to an officer. He did not claim to ever be an officer. That would explain the blue sticker. In my view, this is quite plausible given Stone's role as a whistleblower who is part of an acclimation program. >>While I understand that there is a need to scrutinise the >>background of whistleblowers in order to assess whether they are >>telling the truth, we need to balance this scrutinity with an >>appreciation of the significance of their claims and the >>likelihood that they may be subject to various forms of >>harassment, discrediting, etc., from the 'hard cover up'. There >>is for example the case of an independent Canadian researcher >>who was threatened for covering Stone's story, and arranging for >>documents Stone forwarded to be circulated in Canada (see >>http://www.rense.com/ufo6/terrorist.htm). That is corroboration >>that Stone had information that went far beyond what a typist or >>clerical administrator would have after a 22 year service record >>as you have suggested, and helps establish his credibility as a >>whistleblower revealing information on crash retreivals. I think >>your evaluation of Stone is unbalanced and ignores evidence that >>he is being subjected to harassment, threats, and discrediting. >>This makes your focus on inconsistencies in his service record, >>behavior and testimony questionable. >I looked at the story and it is, once again, allegations with no >sort of evidence. I can point you to any number of people who >believe what Stone said, but none of them can offer any evidence >that it is true. Now this is simply not true. In your own book, Project Moon Dust, you credit Stone with being the first individual to expose Project Moon Dust through FOIA requests focused upon an elite Air Intelligence unit at Fort Belvoir, Virginia (p. 151). In 1991, upon his retirement, Stone began to accumulate numerous documents supporting the existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly as focused on the retreival of UFOs. Where could Stone have possibly gained the specific knowledge of where Project Moon Dust was located, the units involved, the places they visited to retreive UFOs, etc., unless he was as he claimed an individual that worked himself directly in Project Moon Dust? Your argument that Stone was nothing more than administrative typist with clerical duties falls apart because of the detailed knowledge Stone had of Moon Dust and Blue Fly. As you know, FOIA requests are only as successful as an individual has specific information of what is being requested. General requests get nowhere. Stone had specific information since he had worked with the Project Moon Dust teams. Stone's documents gained through FOIA requests are hard evidence that he did serve on such elite UFO crash retreival teams. Your efforts to debunk Stone are a failure. He is as he claims a whistleblower who worked with elite teams that focused on the retreival of crashed UFOs and has detailed knowledge of a number of crash retreivals during his period of service. The general dismissiveness of the UFO community of Stone's claims are a sad reflection of the kinds of biases and methodological failures of veteran UFO researchers. >><snip> >>>Why would Dean be on an intelligence briefing team? He had no >>>special training for that. His records show that from mid-1963 >>>to mid-1967 he was at NATO as a master sergeant assigned as the >>>Chief Clerk Language Service Branch which is hardly the same as >>>being an intelligence analyst, a position for which he was not >>>trained. His record shows no assignments as an intelligence >>>analyst. There is nothing classified about the general training, >>>and in fact, for those who have access to the Army's Distance >>>Learning Training Facility (meaning it's on-line), training for >>>an intelligence analyst is available. So, if Dean's claim was >>>accurate, the training would be in his record, but if the >>>assignment was classified, it would show a generic assignment. >>Dean claims that he received a "Cosmic Top Secret" clearance >>while serving on the briefing team for the SACEUR. "Cosmic" is a >>security classification that likely refers to a >>compartmentalised program set up by the US Army and NATO to deal >>with UFO/ET related matters. >No, it doesn't. It is a NATO classification that distinguishes >it from top secret material originated in other locations. It >suggests nothing about UFO/ET matters. Thanks for acknowledging the existence of 'Cosmic' as a NATO classification for a compartment of classified information pertinent to NATO. Now since COSMIC is a compartmentalised classification category of NATO, we have no way of knowing whether it did deal with UFOs other than through the testimonies of whistleblowers such as Dean. Now as for your suggestion that COSMIC has nothing to do with UFOs, I suggest that NATO would most certainly have had a classification for a phenomeon which it most likely knew to be real, and which constituted a credible security threat for the NATO alliance. That can be deduced from your own Project Moon Dust book substantiating the existence of Air Force investigation teams such as the 4602 Air Intelligence Service Squadron that secretly focused on the investigation of UFOs (p.85) . As you say in your book, the Air Force took UFO investigations seriously despite the Blue Book charade, and had its own investigatory teams, and we can deduce, its own analytical team which Stone also refers to as a unit located at Fort Belvoir. It's logical to assume the same occured for NATO, and Dean had the necessry COSMIC classification to read what was contained in the threat assessment of UFOs studied by NATO investigatory units. >>It would be reasonable to conclude >>that someone receiving such a "Cosmic" classification and having >>access to the documents requiring that classification would have >>their service record not include the specialized training >>required for the performance of their duties. >No it wouldn't. There is nothing about the training that would >demand that it be hidden. As I have tried to explain, the >training is of a generic nature that provides no clues as to >specific assignments, especially when those assignments might be >classified. A Special Forces soldier will have his record show >that training, even if he is then assigned to a clandestine >operation. If a soldier makes a claim about such a clandestine >operation, but there is no training on his record, then his >claim should be suspect. As you said in an ealier post, for those doing classifed assignments in the military, all that appears on their service record is the generic training they performed rather than the specific assignments they performed. As you say in the case of Special Forces training, this is generic training and not classified so it appears on an individual's service record. However, what of the generic training for those individuals who are trained to deal with information or activities concerning the UFO phenomenon? Is the generic training classified so that you have a cover generic training appearing instead? For example, for those trained in the retreival of crashed UFOs, e.g. Project Moon Dust, is the generic training classified so what appears on the individuals service record a cover such as administrative typist. Stone for example claims he was trained with a Nuclear, Biological Chemical Weapons Response team that was never included on his service record. So here Stone is receiving generic training that is classified. All that is on his service record is training as a administrative typist which is the cover used. So presumably the same happened with Robert Dean whose official assignment at NATO was a Master Sergeant assigned as the Chief Clerk Language Service Branch. Again, we have clerical duties presumably used as a cover for the generic training in dealing with sensitive intelligence information concerning UFOs. If Dean was targetted to deal with UFO sensitive material, it's very like that like Stone, his generic training was classified, and a cover was used. <snip> >>OK, so you are not saying that the Assessment is a hoax, but >>that the commanding officer nonchalently threw a copy Dean's way >>to keep him awake. So the implications are that either the >>commanding officer was conducting a massive breach of security >>(unlikely); or that the Assessment was a hoax (you claim not to >>be saying this); or that you have mistakenly contextualized the >>process by which Dean was given access to the Assemement. Of the >>three, I think the third implication is more accurate. >No, I said it wasn't a hoax designed to keep people awake. And I >agree that we wouldn't have an officer cavalierly giving Dean a >copy to read to keep him awake (Dean's claim on more than one >occasion). Actually the most likely scenario here is that Dean >invented The Assessment and no such document exists. Now why wouldn't there be such a document? As you claim in your Project Moon Dust book, the 4602 was an Air Force Unit whose task was to retreive crashed UFOs. There also would have been an analytical team whose job would be to provide the kind of intelligence assesement that would give senior military officers the information they need to make decisions. Now why wouldn't NATO have done exactly the same? The final product would have been the kind of Assessment Dean claims he came across during his duty on the intelligence briefing team with Cosmic Clearance. It is plausible to assume that something like the Assesment existed. At question is whether Dean saw it. As you say, we have to take his word for it. He has put his integrity on the line as a career NCO who received the highest rank possible for an NCO, a very hard feat as you claimed earlier. So Stone lays his credibility on the line in coming forward. That's all we have to work with. Those who have met with Dean know that he has enormous credibility and is no fraud. >But you keep making allegations but offer no evidence to support >these allegations. In the real world we find that sort of >evidence because no matter how good the agency is that wants to >destroy evidence, they can never get it all. There are ways to >prove the truth, which is why we are able to prove some of the >things we can. But you have an omniscient organization out there >that can find and destroy every shred of evidence to prove the >whistleblowers honest. The more outrageous the tale, the more >quickly you sign on. > > >KRandle You say: "The more outrageous the tale, the more quickly you sign on." I've worked as a professional in the academic world and didn't sign on to tales simply because they were outrageous. I studied the available material, did field work, interviewed people, and then wrote analyses, put together initatives, gained prestigous research grants, etc. When I first began doing my work on my first ET issue (East Timor) there were those that claimed that Indonesian human rights abuses in East Timor were exagerrations, wild tales, etc. At the end of the day, these dismissive claims were found to have no foundation and East Timor is now independent. I'm using the same methodology I applied in my academic career to work out what's happening in the UFO arena. I focus on military whistleblowers since to me these are very credible individuals who stake their reputations on the line in coming forward. You may like to dismiss them as people fabricating wild tales, but in the cases of the three whistleblowers we've discussed: Corso, Stone, Dean all served 20+ years in the military and were able to retire with pensions which is quite an achievement. That means we need to give them a fair hearing and not accept spurious dismissals that are often little more than red herrings. Dismissing those such as myself as 'ingenous believers' who 'sign on' to outrageous tales is useful rhetoric that will win you wild applause from veteran UFO researchers, but has little scholarly value as evidenced in my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Michael Salla - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:41:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Jamieson >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >Subject: Michael Salla >Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, and fellow Listerions, >I appreciate the admirable efforts that have been made to >educate Michael Salla with facts. Unfortunately, as I said in my >last post, he listens but does not hear or understand. It's an interesting discussion. Mr. Salla is probably only exhibiting a lack of UFO history knowledge and a feel for the subject. He says he was never interested before encountering the Greer Disclosure Press Club Conference in 2001. A lot of us have been following this since we were kids in the 50s, and at peak moments of attention ever since. Reading Keyhoe, the Lorenzens, John Fuller, etc. as a teenager in the mid 60s meant we had an exposure to phoney contactee tales and phoney whistleblower tales (remember Aztec and the two con men who were "sources" for that tale)? (I say "we"... but, I don't know how old you are, Josh.) This social scientific approach is interesting. In fact, it's what _I've_ been using when dismissing the obvious phoney balonies amongst the whistleblowers. (BTW, have you all been following the Burisch saga? Now he has surrendered his MJ-12 position and a European has replaced him.) >I am feeling a better strategy at this point would be not to >waste any more efforts at pouring sense into a black hole. I >feel at this point it may be best to just ignore him and move on >in our endeavors. We are providing him an audience on this list >for his absurdity. I can't tell anyone what to do or not to do >but it is obvious that the lack of meaningful dialogue is >leading nowhere. I don't know, I've sure learned a lot of interesting information from reading Stanton Friedman's responses to Michael. And, the dialogue is interesting in fleshing out social scientific issues, like cultic and closed systems or cognitive dissonance experienced by people in group efforts like the ufo field. (It's the gullible and non discriminating folks who suffer cognitive dissonance.) The social sciences can be an useful tool in ufology. Indeed, I recommend highly (to the distress of many luminaries here, I'm sure) "Shockingly Close to the Truth!" by James Moseley and Karl Pflock for an incredibly educational and sociological exam of ufology spanning a few decades. That book helps with perspective (mind you, you can't take anything Moselely says all that seriously..... Look at how he trashes Richard Hall and how his co author doesn't). I don't get the feeling that Michael has a real feel for the whole history as yet, being fresh to the subject like he reports himself being. >Dr. Salla, I don't like to refer to you in the third person but >you are very removed from the more serious UFO investigators and >we are getting nowhere. Entertain the people on your website who >must be titillated by your line of thought. As my dad once >stated, "It does not require tits for unthinking people to be >seduced by titillation". Josh, he probably is _going_ to be a serious investigator. He's only been around for a little while. Since he's clearly an articulate and gentlemanly communicator, no one is going to boot him out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:20:21 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:50:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:06:55 EDT >>Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >>>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:06:12 -0400 >>>Subject: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >>Larry, Errol, List, All, >>I find this highly inflammatory, biased, and more importantly, >>that it has nothing to do with UFOs! >>>Like Their Counterparts at Wright-Patterson, Langley, and >>>Lackland Air Force Bases, Officials at Andrews AFB Have No Right >>>to Bomb the First Amendment! >>>By Larry W. Bryant >><snip> >>>A group of current/former U. S. servicemembers - known as the >>>Ghost Troop (http://geocities.com/onlythecaptain/ ) - has found >>>the "bloody knife" exposing the OFFICIALLY UNRELEASED number of >>>Americans who died during the fierce battle at Iraq's capital in >>>the spring of 2003. That number, of course, dwarfs the >>>officially released count. To help determine the discrepancy's >>>cause/perpetuators/accountability, the group is seeking all >>>related documentary evidence and sworn testimony from all BOBCUP >>>whistleblowers brave enough to come forward. Armed with your >>>accounts, the group can help persuade Congress to exercise its >>>oversight authority in this matter. Contact: Larry W. Bryant >>>at:... >>>At this point, were I the U. S. attorney assigned to represent >>>the defendant in Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al., I'd submit my >>>resignation forthwith - rather than countenance any form of >>>viewpoint discrimination. >>>What's worse for Amerika: being "anti-military," or being >>>anti-First Amendment? >>This is not a First Amendment issue. The base newspaper is the >>commander's instrument for communication with the soldiers. It >>operates under many of the same restrictions that a civilian >>newspaper uses, but the commander is the publisher. Just as >>civilian newspapers have the right to reject advertising they >>find offensive, so does the base newspaper. We have all heard >>stories that one network decided not to run an ad that another >>found acceptable. No one retreated to First Amendment arguments >>at that time. >>Second, that ad is anti-military, especially after you read the >>allegations raised on the web page that Bryant provides for us. >>There certainly is no obligation for the base newspaper to run >>an ad with that "spin" in it. (Even without the additional >>information, the ad certainly seems to be anti-military.) >>Finally, I notice that the man Bryant cites by pointing us to >>the web site was not in Baghdad. His allegations are so much >>speculation. However, I spent a great deal of time on the >>Baghdad International Airport (known to the soldiers as BIAP) >>and I saw nothing to support these claims of huge American >>casualties. (I wonder here if the term casualties isn't >>confused! It means wounded and missing as well as killed.) I >>had the opportunity to review a great deal of information (some >>of it classified) about the battle of Baghdad, and is simply >>does not bear out these allegations. >>I would suggest that Bryant take his fight with the government >>about this into a different forum and leave this one to UFOs. >Kevin Randle's protestation serves to remind me why I've chosen >not to waste time and effort in trying to justify my existence >to those who'd prefer that I disappear. >Nevertheless, I now consider it my civic duty to respond to >Kevin's ill-founded concerns: >(1) The freedom-of-speech clause of the First Amendment to the >U. S. Constitution exists not so much to protect non- >inflammatory (read: orthodox) speech as to protect the >"inflammatory" kind (read: unorthodox). Apparently, Kevin >happens to be not the only (otherwise educated) citizen >unfamiliar with that simple doctrine. Yeah, I get it. You have the right to say any stupid thing you want and I have the right to ignore it. The First Amendment does not require me to listen. >(2) I of course claim no expertise as to what did or didn't >happen (and why) during/after the Battle of Baghdad. I leave >details of that matter to those interested in >researching/debating it. The ad in question happens to be part >of my whole series of whistleblower-solicitation ads aimed at >the audience of military newspapers. That audience has a First >Amendment right to receive those ads' content without any >interference from the post/base commander. What's done >(illegally) unto one such ad in the series is done unto them all >- in terms of any official prior-restraint policy directed at >them by the commander. All this First Amendment doctrine appears >for anyone to see and digest within the complaints filed in the >two cases of Bryant v. Rumsfeld, et al. Then why bring up the Battle of Baghdad and point us to a web site that deals with that, but has no connection to UFOs? You claim to know nothing about this, but want us to support your admittedly ignorant point of view. >(3) Even as I speak, four USAF base commanders are stonewalling >the recent prepublication-review submission of my ad "Blow the >Whistle on the Neo-UFO Whistleblowers!" If they persist in this >interference, they risk being cited for contempt of court - >since their doing so violates terms of the consent judgment I >won back in the late eighties during the course of my First >Amendment lawsuit Bryant v. Weinberger, et al. The court's order >requires all DoD officials to refrain from interfering with my >submitted "UFO cover-up" whistleblower-solicitation ads. >(4) As with any other form of speech critical of government >policy/practice, "ANTI-military" speech (the opposite of PRO- >military speech) deserves full protection of the First >Amendment - especially when that speech occurs in a "designated >public form" like the ad pages of military newspapers (an >argument central to my case against Rumsfeld's public affairs >community). I would suggest that a publication for the beef industry wouldn't be interested in ads from PETA or that a publication from the Catholic Church would be interested in an abortionist ad. And a military newspaper would not be interested in anti- military ads. Again, I understand you have the right to your opinion and the right to attempt publication of that opinion, but I have the right to ignore it as the publication has the right to refuse it. >(5) If Kevin now continues to fail to see the relevance of my >Rumsfeld case to the politics of Ufology, then he has some more >9th-grade civics homework awaiting him. Please. You were talking about the your First Amendment right to say any dumb thing you want and I was talking about my right to ignore you. Your original post had nothing to do with UFOs and that was my point.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:14:48 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky >From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:03:22 -0500 >Subject: New Phoenix UFO Video >It's possibly a triangle or rectangular craft, rotating counter- >clockwise, horizontally, inside a cloud possibly in some type of >stealth mode. Brian: If you wish to see a larger version of this video, I just posted one on my web site. Let me assure you the video is quite real. However, the object/lights in the video may certainly raise some questions, as they do seem to move rather unconventionally. The lights were just as strange to the naked eye, in that the place in which they reappear certainly left me with the impression that it was traveling at an incredible speed. http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/jeffwilles5-12-2005.wmv or http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS.html When I joined this List a couple months back, I did so with the intent of soliciting scientific help in the form of instruments and expertise. This problem or need has since been satisfied, perhaps not quickly enough however, as they were not in place for this event. We did have a Cannon XL1 rolling as well as a 35mm Camera taking 30 sec. exposures at the time, but they were focused elsewhere. This sighting is a good example of what I consider "missed opportunity". While in this instance I happened to take Jeff and another gentleman to this site, it could just as easily been a team of researchers with the instruments and expertise to obtain much more valuable data then a single video clip. In fact, about 65 minutes after the video was shot, a closer more interesting light was observed, but we had just packed up our equipment. Let me say I suffer from the same "affliction" many on the List may feel James Smith to also be infected with. In fact, it was because I shared this need for evidence via the scientific method, that I originally inquired of him as to whom on the list might have the resources/instruments to obtain such data. Discussions about UFOs appearing in the background of old films is all fine and dandy, but in reality it is... well, verbal masturbation in my opinion. While I admit my experience in this field is lacking and the method I propose (which is identical to what James has suggested) may seem like a shot in the dark, it is instances just like the capturing of the video above, that illustrate the validity of this approach. Wanting disclosure is valid and understandable, needing it is giving up control and creating dependence. Don't just meet science half way... use the tools and methods it offers to obtain the data/proof that has proved allusive to date. Witness Reports can be very valuable, but this value is not in the form of proof, but in the form of maximization of opportunity. IMO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:23:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:19:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: Officials At Andrews AFB Bomb First Amendment! <snip> I'm not clear on why: - writing an ad or article criticizing specific behaviour, related to secrecy, of some members of the military, or, - writing an ad or article urging members of the military to blow the whistle on the UFO issue is anti-_military_. These actions are anti-_secrecy_, which Larry considers unjustified, but whether the behaviour of the people involved happen to be in uniform or not seems totally irrelevant to me. It almost seems as if the officers involved are trying to shift the issue away from secrecy and on to a hinted-at lack of patriotism on Larry's part.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:24:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Maccabee >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:54:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:04 -0400 >>Subject: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? ><snip> >>- from January 2003 to July 2004 more than 2,000 radar "tracks of >>interest" were detected over Washington airspace leading to 350 >>scrambles of customs aircraft based at Reagan National Airport, >>according to the Department of Homeland Security." ><snip> >>However the most ufologicially interesting example is this: >>"April 27, 2005: President Bush is taken to a White House bunker >>and Vice President Cheney is evacuated from the executive >>complex when an unidentified radar target approaches to within >>seven miles of Reagan National Airport. Authorities conclude >>that the radar blip was caused by clouds or a weather anomaly." >>Would be interesting to know the actual technical data on this >>"radar blip": duration, distance traveled, speed, direction, >>date, time, etc. The way it first was detected and the manner in >>which it was last detected and the strength. All of these >>together would provide sufficient information to estimate >>whether or not the "cloud or weather anomaly" made any sense. >>For example, if it moved at more than 100 mph, like a small >>plane, it wouldn't be a cloud. >Considering the amount of commercial, private, military and >police air traffic in and around Washington, D.C. and the very >close proximity of Reagan "International" Airport (Air Canada >has landing rights there) to the White House and the Pentagon, I >am not surprised with the large number of "tracks of interest" >during this 1 1/2 year period. <snip> >I too would be interested in seeing the technical radar data and >knowing the weather conditions that produced the false(?) alarm >of an unidentified aircraft flying towards the White House. Even >at more than 100 mph, the blips could still be due to clouds or >weather conditions in very much the same way police radar can >pick up speeding phantom cars on tree lined highways on days >with light winds. Although the tree branches would not be moving >back and forth very fast, the radar may first detect the >branches of very distant trees over the highway with the first >radar echo. This would be followed by the detection of branches >from less distant trees with the next radar echo and then the >branches of much more closer tree branches with the next radar >echo, and so on. The rapidly decreasing times for the >consecutive radar echos could create the false impression of a >real vehicle moving 100 mpg or more towards them, for example. One could speculate on atmospheric conditions that could affect the radar until the cows come home. Radar might even detect the cows coming home. However, without the actual data there is no point in carrying out an analysis based on the weather. One would think, because that target was mentioned as something "special" that it would have had some non-atmospheric characteristics. In other words, a large blobby image seeming to move probably wouldn't attract attention. But a point target on a linear trajectory would. I don't know, but I speculate that the surveillance system would include "raw" radar and perhaps height-finding radar as well as transponder "radar". If there were a point target moving at considerable speed but not transponding... alarm bells would go off (such as happened
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:28:59 -0400 Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video The recent UFO fleet over Mexico city videotaped by Arturo Robles Gil on April 11, 2005 convinced skywatcher Larry "lawwalk" from Kaufman, Texas to come forward and tell about his sighting and present his evidence, videotaped on the afternoon of May 3, 2004 in Kaufman County, Texas. In a message to BJ Booth of UFO Casebook Larry "lawwalk" mentioned having seen the April 11 Mexican UFO fleet footage and decided to tell his story. According to the article published in the UFO Casebook webpage Larry was confused and disconcerted by the unusual sighting he experimented that afternoon of May 2004 due to the numerous objects flying in formation at a clear day. Larry confessed that he thought these was a formation of rare birds of some kind but being unsure of what he got on tape decided to keep it secret with him until he found the mexican footage. The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. This is a confirmation that the UFO flotillas is a global phenomena and more reports are coming from other countries. Thanks to Larry and BJ Booth for releasing this information and provide the evidences.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Kelly 'Green Man' Film Preview From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:10:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:36:21 -0400 Subject: Kelly 'Green Man' Film Preview Source: Kentucky New Era - Hopkinsville, Kentucky http://tinyurl.com/begyu Monday, May 16, 2005 Festival, Cable TV To Show Kelly 'Green Men' Film By Michele Carlton Producers of a docu-drama featuring the 1955 invasion of "little green men" in the Kelly community of Christian County will give Hopkinsville a sneak peek of the film "Monsters of the UFO" at the 50th anniversary celebration in August. Lisa McIntosh of Barcon Video Productions in Glendale, Calif., which is producing the film, said she and co-producer Barry Conrad plan to attend the Little Green Men Festival on Aug. 19- 21. "We're bringing the one-hour version of the Kelly story to the festival. We may even bring one of the creatures we used for the film with us," McIntosh said. "We're really excited about coming." "Monsters of the UFO" includes dramatizations and interviews of three stories involving close encounters with unexplained phenomenon. In addition to the Kelly incident, the film will explore first-hand accounts of the Mothman legend in Point Pleasant, W.Va., and the Flatwoods Monster in Flatwoods, W.Va. "I think this will be a welcome addition to the festival," said Cheryl Cook, executive director of the Hopkinsville-Christian County Convention and Visitors Bureau, which is coordinating the event. "We were hoping they were coming to the festival. We plan on showing the film on Saturday at the Convention Center." The festival will feature symposiums, a parade, music downtown, a children's costume contests, an essay contest, a golf scramble, which are all centered around the same theme, the Kelly invasion. The Kelly legend started on Aug. 21, 1955, when residents reported the landing of a spaceship near the home of "Lucky" Sutton on Old Madisonville Road. Sutton and other family members said 12 little men landed in a spaceship and then they battled them at the house for hours. Although the creatures are now known as the "little green men of Kelly," original stories reported they were silver. To develop "Monsters," a Barcon production crew conducted eyewitness interviews in Hopkinsville in December 2002 and December 2003 to include in the movie. The dramatization of the Kelly encounter was filmed in October 2003 in the Angeles National Forest just north of Los Angeles. McIntosh anticipates that the entire film would air in a two- hour special on the Sci-Fi channel in October. The Sci-Fi channel has previously aired two other Barcon productions, "An Unknown Encounter" and "California's Most Haunted." "We will have our final shoot in June," McIntosh said. "At the end of June through August we'll do our final edits. We hope to be finished in September and release it in October - probably around Halloween." Although Barcon previously hoped to release the film last fall, production costs delayed it a year, McIntosh said. "We completely do all our own shoots and edits with our own money," she said. "We wanted to keep control of the project. We want to tell the story like the people we interviewed so graciously told us." After three years of production on "Monsters of the UFO," McIntosh said she and Conrad are excited to share the film with the world.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Forteans As Populist Intellectuals From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:26:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:45:23 -0400 Subject: Forteans As Populist Intellectuals Forteans As Populist Intellectuals: A Sociological Probe by T. Peter Park 'By the damned, I mean the excluded' --Charles Hoy Fort The Book of the Damned Are 'Forteans' a 'new class' of populist folk-intellectuals alongside traditional academics and 'highbrows'? Are we seeing an attempted 'circulation of intellectual elites' in our time? Do writers on UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, 'psychical' phenomena, Atlantis, planetary catastrophes, and Nostradamus predictions compete with 'cultural elite' pundits and social critics? Are Forteans in a 'turf war' with the Lionel Trillings, Irving Howes, John Kenneth Galbraiths, Noam Chomskys, Richard Rortys, Nathan Glazers, Michael Harringtons, Michel Foucaults, Jacques Derridas, William F. Buckleys, Thomas Sowells, Gloria Steinems, Hannah Arendts, and Susan Sontags? These questions sound bizarre, even ludicrous. The groups deal with different topics, enjoy vastly different levels of 'mainstream' media and academic prestige, and appeal to different audiences. The 'mainstream' often dismisses the 'Forteans' as 'crackpots', while honoring the Galbraiths, Chomskys, Glazers, and Steinems as eminent scholars addressing important social, political, and cultural questions. The latter, rather than the 'Forteans', are usually called 'intellectuals'in newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post, in magazines like Time, Newsweek, Harper's, The New Republic, The Nation, and The New York Review of Books, by network television newscasters, and at 'Ivy League' universities. Still, we may see Forteans as part of a 'populist intelligentsia' expressing the interests and grievances of people who feel that their values and beliefs are ignored by 'mainstream', 'Establishment', or 'elite' scientists, scholars, media, academicians, and clergy. Besides Forteans, such populist intellectuals and their followers include religious fundamentalists, and commentators like Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Still 'further out' from the 'Establishment' or 'cultural elite', they include 'survivalists.' conspiracy theorists, gun enthusiasts, 'Holocaust Revisionists', 'militias' like the 'Aryan Nation', and anti-government terrorists like 'Unabomber' Theodore Kaczynski and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. These fringe communities are not identical, and do not agree on everything. Still, they do overlap somewhat in membership, interests, and attitudes. However, they all feel slighted by the 'prestige' media, universities, and journals, by the 'official' scientific and medical institutions, and by the 'mainline' churches. They see themselves as ridiculed by the 'cultural elites.' They are beneficiaries of mass literacy and modern communications technology - radio, television, and the Internet, by-passing 'official' institutions and media with their own alternative communications networks. They feel excluded by 'official' institutions and publications, but use the Internet as a 'Samizdat' for spreading their beliefs. If Harvard, Newsweek, the New York Times, WCBS-TV, CNN, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Historical Association, the national Episcopal or Methodist church hierarchies, or the National Council of Churches of Christ dismiss them, they will take their ideas directly to 'the people' on the Internet and in their own publications. I myself am a Ph.D. in European history from a prestigious elite school, the University of Virginia, with both high-culture and Fortean interests. I have published in both mainstream scholarly journals and Fortean publications. I've spoken at Carlyle congresses held by professors of English, and at UFO Congresses. I'm thus a keen observer - and participant - of both subcultures. Apart from specific subject interests and academic credentials, these two cultures definitely differ in sensibility and outlook. Many (not all, but still many) Forteans show a vision of life very different from that of mainstream academic scholars - and from that of the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Organization for Women, Common Cause, People for the American Way, Americans for Democratic Action, the NAACP, and Amnesty International. This was not always true In the 19th century, these two cultures were less sharply opposed than they are today. 19th century 'proto-Fortean' students of scientifically unorthodox phenomena saw themselves as the daring 'cutting edge' rather than as bitter adversaries of their day's 'mainstream' science. The 19th century working classes eagerly pursued 'mainstream' high culture and sought guidance from 'mainstream' intellectuals. Today's 'mainstream' academics and intellectuals are certainly not unanimous in their political, social, or cultural attitudes. We have C.P. Snow's 'Two Cultures' of scientists and literary humanists - and traditionalist upholders of the Western cultural 'canon' of 'dead white European males' versus multiculturalists, feminists, Afrocentrists, postmodernists, deconstructionists, and apostles of 'queer theory.' Still, most share a belief in the reliability of generally accepted scientific, historical, and scholarly knowledge, a loyalty to contemporary society as a going concern worth preserving, a sober hope in its continuance, and a commitment to humanistic values of 'liberty, equality, fraternity' for all people. They are committed to religious and ethnic tolerance and to racial equality, a rejection of religious fundamentalism and exclusivism, an abhorrence of racial, ethnic, and religious stereotyping, and a chariness of apocalyptic visions. Whether they are political liberals, radicals, or conservatives, and agnostics or religious believers, 'mainstream' academics and intellectuals accept a 'consensus reality' where evolution and an expanding universe are established facts - while UFO abductions, Illuminati or New World Order conspiracies, and cryptographic Bible Codes predicting current events do not exist. They hold their beliefs in a tentative manner - aware they may be wrong, seeing their own views as plausible, reasonably well-founded hypotheses alongside other reasonably well-founded hypotheses.. Here, they are the opposite of amateur historians pontificating from their bar- stool or dinner table that 'history shows' that divorce, homosexuality, high taxes, immigration, or 'women's lib'caused the fall of Rome, or that FDR engineered Pearl Harbor to maneuver America into World War II. Many Forteans, by contrast, often show a populist suspicion of such academic and 'cultural elite' attitudes, and a sympathy for fundamentalist, xenophobic, apocalyptic, and conspiratorial views. Many exhibit what a friend of mine calls a 'Chicken Little' syndrome of obsession with 'prophecies' of impending disasters - in the Bible, or by Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and various'psychics.' They fear an unprecedented, unimaginable apocalypse about to sweep away human history impossible to avert: thermonuclear war, Muslim terrorist attacks, a plague worse than AIDS and Ebola, alien invasion, global warming, a new Ice Age, a polar shift, a collision with 'Planet X', or the 'Rapture', 'Tribulation', and Second Coming of Christ as interpreted by Biblical fundamentalists. Many speculate about Jewish, Masonic, Illuminati, 'International Bankers.' or 'New World Order' conspiracy theories - and about the U.S. Government having made a pact with space aliens under Area 51. They scorn as na=EFve the liberal/radical dream of building a just society and peaceful world through good will, rationality, social reform and political activism. They have equally little faith in the conservative dream of preserving a stable society for coming generations through Judaeo-Christian moral values, capitalist free enterprise, fiscal prudence, and a strong national defense. They reject the tentativeness, the awareness of their own fallibility, of academic scholars in confidently proclaiming their conspiracy theories and apocalyptic scenarios. A grassroots apocalyptic anti-academic cultural and political populism unites many (not all, but still many) Forteans, UFO enthusiasts, and 'New Agers' with religious fundamentalists, 'survivalists', conspiracy theorists, militias, gun enthusiasts, and terrorists like Theodore Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh. These people, often using the Internet as their forum as traditional Bohemians used cafes, represent a 'circulation of intellectual elites', an autodidact 'intellectual proletariat' contesting the 'mainstream' high-culture, academic, and liberal/radical heirs of traditional avant-garde and radical 'Bohemia.' The 19th century working classes and the 19th century forerunners of modern 'Forteans' did not share the contemporary populist resentment of 'mainstream' academics, established scientists, and liberal/radical intellectuals. In the 19th century, many American and European workers eagerly strove to appropriate high culture and supported political movements devised by 'mainstream' intellectuals. American 'mechanics' flocked to Lyceums and Chautauquas, or pursued private self- education in the manner of the 'Learned Blacksmith' and peace advocate Elihu Burritt. European 'proletarians' joined radical movements led or inspired by middle-class or even aristocratic intellectuals. In 19th century America, the 'Lyceums' and later the 'Chautauquas' gave lectures, readings, and concerts on philosophy, science, literature, and classical music. They attracted workingmen - farmers, blacksmiths, carpenters, shoemakers, and their wives - as well as the middle classes. Ralph Waldo Emerson was a popular Lyceum speaker, as were Henry David Thoreau, Daniel Webster, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and Susan B. Anthony. Many of Emerson's essays were originally Lyceum lectures. Elihu Burritt (1810-1879), the 'Learned Blacksmith', was a Connecticut blacksmith who became a peace advocate and prodigious self-taught linguist. Burritt educated himself by holding a book on a stand behind his anvil and reading as he worked. He studied mathematics, geography, and languages,- learning 50 languages by age 30! He became a crusader for social reforms - antislavery, temperance, self-education, and above all world peace, lecturing and organizing international conferences. The workingmen and farmers who flocked to Lyceums and Chautauquas, and the self-educated 'mechanics' like Burritt, were eager to acquire the high culture enjoyed by the prosperous haute bourgeoisie of Boston, New York, or Philadelphia who had attended Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, Europe's industrial workers sought an improvement of their condition by political action through radical movements led or inspired by 'progressive' intellectuals. The rural peasantry were traditionalist devotees of Church and King, devout Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, or Eastern Orthodox loyal to the traditions and institutions of the pre-1789 European ancien regime, voting for conservative political parties pledged to upholding Throne and Altar. Urban industrial workers, however, were estranged from Church, monarchy, and aristocracy. Instead, they supported various forms of socialism, communism, anarchism, trade-unionism, or left-republicanism. Skeptical of religion, urban workers sought a this-worldly improvement of their lot through political and social action. They embraced either the revolutionary utopian ideologies of secular salvation invented by radical intellectuals like St.-Simon, Fourier, Owen, Marx, Engels, Proudhon, Bakunin, and Kropotkin, or the soberly hopeful programs of orderly, peaceful, gradualist social reform preached by middle-class liberals like Jefferson and Mill, and by reformist socialists like Jean Jaur=E8s, Eduard Bernstein, and the English Fabian Socialists (H.G. Wells, George Bernard Shaw, Sidney & Beatrice Webb, etc.) Whether revolutionary communists or anarchists, or peacefully reformist social-democrats and left-liberals, Europe's industrial working classes in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were wedded to 19th century offshoots of the Enlightenment. European industrial workers espoused the Enlightenment dream of Condorcet, Paine, Jefferson, St.-Simon, Bentham, Comte, Marx, and Mill. With Condorcet, Paine, Jefferson, St.-Simon, Bentham, Comte, Marx, and Mill, they dreamed of building a peaceful rational cooperative City of Man devoted to the Greatest Happiness of the Greatest Number through reason, science, and good will. They felt that it was the duty of decent, rational men and women to fight, work, and agitate for the Hoped-For Better Day to Come. Next to active connivance in reaction or tyranny, the worst sin was a fatalistic acceptance of the inevitability of war, injustice, poverty, and oppression, a lazy pessimistic refusal to fight for justice and against social evils. The European workers who joined socialist, communist, or radical-democratic parties or anarchist cells placed their trust in schemes of social betterment devised by middle-class (sometimes even aristocratic) intellectuals, journalists, and lawyers. Liberal idealists like Jefferson, Emerson, and Mill came from middle-class or even 'landed gentry' social backgrounds, as did socialist, communist, and anarchist firebrands like Marx, Engels, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Ferdinand Lassalle, Jules Guesde, and Francisco Ferrer, and reformist socialists like Jean Jaur=E8s, Eduard Bernstein, Eugene Debs, and the English Fabians. 19th century workingmen, both in Europe and America, trustingly looked to such progressive bourgeois thinkers for guidance. They did not resent the grounding of Marx, Engels, Bakunin, and Kropotkin in Hegel and Darwin, nor the well-rounded high-culture education of Jefferson, Mill, and Emerson. The socialists and anarchists, too, organized adult education programs and 'workers' universities' similar to the American Lyceums and Chautauquas. Many socialist and anarchist workingmen were avid intellectual self-improvers, eagerly devouring Plato, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Goethe, Hegel, Darwin, Marx, Spencer, and Nietzsche. Leon Trotsky himself, in his Literatura i revolyutsiya (1923; Literature and Revolution, 1925), enthusiastically described how under communism, Man would transform himself, and the proletariat would appropriate the cultural riches of the past. In a final chapter of Literature and Revolution, Trotsky predicted that under communism, the average human type could rise to the level of Aristotle, Goethe, or Marx! European workers looked for guidance not only to socialists and anarchists. They also read and discussed liberal thinkers like John Stuart Mill, and conservative critics of laissez-faire, 'Mammonism', and the 'Cash Nexus' like Thomas Carlyle, Charles Dickens, Benjamin Disraeli, Charles Kingsley, and John Ruskin. They even read anti-socialist, 'rugged individualist' apostles of science like Herbert Spencer, and elitist anti-democratic heralds of the =DCbermensch like Friedrich Nietzsche. They saw Mill, Carlyle, Disraeli, Dickens, and Ruskin as allies against 'every man for himself and the Devil take the hindmost' laissez- faire 'rugged individualism', Spencer as a fellow-fighter for scientific enlightenment against religious dogmatism, and Nietzsche as a comrade-in-arms against petty, narrow-minded bourgeois conventionality. The same respect for mainstream high culture marked the 19th and early 20th century forerunners of today's 'Forteans', 'New Agers', and 'Fantastic Realists.' It characterized the Mesmerists, phrenologists, Swedenborgians, Spiritualists, Theosophists, 'psychical researchers', and readers of books like Catherine Crowe's The Night Side of Nature (1848) and Robert Dale Owen's Footfalls on the Boundary of Another World (1860). Many Mesmerists, Swedenborgians, Spiritualists, Theosophists, and 'psychical researchers' - unlike their contemporary counterparts - were actively involved in the progressive social reconstruction movements of their day: trade unionism, anti- slavery, feminism, pacifism, socialism, etc. They saw their Fortean interests as an expansion, broadening, and deepening of orthodox science, rather than as its overthrow. They were only drawing attention to phenomena overlooked by 'mainstream' scientists and philosophers, or hastily dismissed in debunking mediaeval 'superstition' and ignorant peasant or tribal 'folklore.' They acted like 'cutting edge' Thomas Kuhnian paradigm-shattering scientific revolutionists, daringly going where no man has gone in penetrating the secrets of our vast mysterious universe. Unlike many current pop-Forteans, 19th century proto-Forteans did not denounce mainstream scientists as closed-minded mendacious Establishmentarians, nor orthodox science as a conspiracy to hide the truth. They did not preach the 'Chicken Little' syndrome of expecting an unavoidable mega-catastrophe (atomic war, alien invasion, super-plague, planetary collision, etc.) to end human civilization in the near future. They hoped to improve their society, rather than fatalistically awaiting its apocalyptic destruction. Some Forteans now still hold the outlook of their 19th century forerunners. Others, however, embrace populist anti-intellectualism, conspiracy theorizing, and apocalypticism. Scientists are themselves partly responsible for the anti- scientific backlash. On the one hand, many eminent scientists and philosophers have recognized the importance of anomalous phenomena like ESP, apparitions, and mediumistic communications. We may name here Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Henry Sidgwick, F.W.H. Myers, William James, Henri Bergson, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sir Oliver Lodge, Alfred North Whitehead, William McDougall, Carl Gustav Jung, Aldous Huxley, C.D. Broad, and David Ray Griffin, as well as some supposed scientific skeptics like H.G. Wells, Sigmund Freud, and Sir Julian Huxley. Against this, however, we find the dogmatic skepticism of the T.H. Huxley, Lord Kelvin, Hermann Helmholz, Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Paul Kurtz, Isaac Asimov, and Philip Klass types. This has created a popular impression that the academic and scientific communities are dogmatically closed to any consideration of anomalous phenomena. It has encouraged the belief that the academic and scientific 'Establishment'is engaged in a conspiracy to suppress discussion of such phenomena in a 'Watergate'-style cover-up. Historically, the 19th century alliance between 'highbrows' and 'Proles' continued into the early 20th century. In the late 19th century, however, the working-class, socialist, and proto- Fortean respect for mainstream high culture gave way to a resentful populist anti-intellectualism among the American and European working and lower-middle classes. A grassroots rejection of both aristocratic/churchly conservative and orthodox liberal/radical intellectual traditions among the 'plain folk' led to Burkean or 'Throne and Altar' conservatism, Disraelian noblesse oblige 'Tory Democracy', and traditional liberalism, socialism, and anarchism alike yielding to an anti- intellectual populism distinct from the traditional Left and Right. This populist mentality was born in the decades after the American Civil War of 1861-1865 and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The American 'Gilded Age', the German 'Grundungsara' of rapid industrial expansion, and the early decades of the French 'Third Republic' saw the rise of this populist mind-set among the working and lower-middle classes and small farmers in both America and Europe. It became quite widespread among them in the 20th century. The term 'populism' is used by historians for movements claiming to represent BOTH the economic interests AND the cultural outlook of the 'common people' or 'plain folk.', against BOTH economic exploitation by Big Capital AND the cultural corruption of big-city and academic intellectuals, 'sophisticates', 'cosmopolitans', and media. Historians rarely use 'populist' for liberals, socialists, or anarchists who champion the interests of the lower classes with highbrow ideologies based on Mill, Marx, Bakunin, Kropotkin, or the English Fabians. Rather, they use 'populist' for European as well as American anti- 'Establishment' movements with a strongly anti-intellectual, fundamentalist, racialist, or xenophobic flavor. The original 19th century American Populists were led by small-town Southern and Midwestern lawyers and newspapermen, with little input from progressive East Coast and Ivy League intellectuals. Many Populists expressed racist and anti-Semitic views and conspiracy theories, and a general resentment of highbrow intellectuals and 'city slickers.' William Jennings Bryan, the Populist candidate for U.S. President in 1896, 1900, and 1908, defended religious fundamentalism against Darwinism a generation later at the 1925 Scopes 'Monkey Trial.' Xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and conspiracy theories were a disturbing undertone in American Populism. However, they were central to the 'Volkisch', 'Integral Nationalist', and 'Right- Radical' movements arising in Europe in the 1880's and 1890's, and to the thinking of the late 19th and early 20th century 'Conservative Revolutionary' intellectuals inspiring or embracing such movements - writers like Paul de Lagarde, Julius Langbehn, Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, Stefan George, Oswald Spengler, and Martin Heidegger in Germany, Charles Maurras and Maurice Barr=E8s in France, Gabriele D'Annunzio and Enrico Corradini in Italy, Knut Hamsun in Norway, Dimitri Merezhkovsky in Russia. These preached a blend of xenophobia, nationalism, anti-Semitism, conspiracy theorizing, suspicion of urban cultural 'decadence', and hostility to both 'Capitalism' and 'Socialism.' Especially in Germany and Austria, whose 'Volkisch' groups and agitators spawned Nazism, these movements embraced occultism, extreme anti-Semitism, crackpot racial theories, and attacks on 'Jewish' science. In France, anti-Semites divided the country into bitterly opposed camps with the Dreyfus Affair of the 1890's and early 1900's. In Russia, this ugly reactionary- populist ferment, officially encouraged by the Tsarist regime, manifested itself in the pogroms of the 'Black Hundreds', and in that notorious anti-Semitic forgery sponsored by the Tsarist secret police, the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The Protocols of Zion, in translation, became immensely popular among anti-Semites throughout Europe and even in America, where Henry Ford serialized them in his Dearborn Independent. The Protocols were especially popular in Germany and Austria, as part of what has been called the 'cultural exchange' between Russian and German anti-Semites. The Action Fran=E7aise and the anti-Dreyfusards, the Viennese Christian Socialists under Mayor Karl Lueger, the pan-Germans, Volkisch' groups, and anti-Semitic parties in Germany, and the extreme Italian nationalists emerging in 1903 under Corradini were early movements inspired by the 'Ideology of Resentment', as historian Fritz Stern has called it - an ideology that reached its culmination with Fascism and Nazism in the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's. In the United States, too, it had its echo in Father Coughlin and his followers in the 1930's. It did not wholly die after 1945, resurfacing in the 1950's, for instance, with the Poujadist movement in France and McCarthyism in the United States. The 'militia' movement, and anti-government terrorists like Timothy McVeigh, represent a more recent American outcropping of the same 'Ideology of Resentment' - which in a much milder form inspires the Rush Limbaughs, Matt Drudges, Sean Hannitys, and Ann Coulters of our time. The specific movements of the 1880-1945 era are dead and gone, except among some small fringe groups, and unlikely to be revived in their original forms. However, the broader populist mentality is still with us. We see it in the sniping at 'cultural elites', in the sneering at 'effete snobs' and the 'Brie and Chablis set', in the 'Chicken Little' syndrome, in the obsession with Nostradamus' and Edgar Cayce's 'prophecies', in religious fundamentalism, and in the fundamentalist and 'New World Order' paranoia about computer microchips and supermarket bar codes as 'the Mark of the Beast.' Anti-Semitism has taken a back seat to anti-Isl=E2mism and Arab-baiting - especially since September 2001. Sociologically, Forteans and other 'populist intellectuals' represent an attempted 'circulation of intellectual elites', the yearning of a new would-be 'intelligentsia' for a 'place in the sun', a 'piece of the action.' Their rise parallels that of the original radical/Bohemian 'highbrow'intelligentsia in the 18th and early 19th centuries. Like the radical pamphleteers of the French Revolution snubbed by the salon philosophes of the High Enlightenment, and the struggling cafe artists and poets of La Boh=E8me, today's Internet-surfing UFO, conspiracy, and apocalypse buffs are an intellectual proletariat resentful of the prestige and pretensions of 'Establishment' and 'cultural elite' scientists, scholars, intellectuals, and journalists. Modern 'mainstream' intellectuals have a three-fold historic social root: (1) university professors; (2) cultivated upper- class gentlemen of letters, along with ambitious, talented folk of humbler origin welcomed into their salons; and (3) 'Bohemian' writers and artists living on the margins of society. The celebrated 18th century philosophes and literati of the High Enlightenment were either gentlemen of leisure or else salon lions enjoying aristocratic patronage: Voltaire, Montesquieu, Hume, Gibbon, Diderot, LaMettrie, d'Holbach, Rousseau, Helvetius, Condorcet, Marmontel, Jefferson. The 'Bohemia' of struggling writers, artists, and composers living by their wits on the fringes of society was the seedbed of the 19th century's literary/artistic avant-garde and political radicalism. 'Bohemia' developed in early 19th century European cities from the 'literary underground' of 18th century London and Paris. Tobias Smollett and Samuel Johnson's London had its Grub Street, described by Johnson as 'inhabited by writers of small histories, dictionaries, and temporary poems.' France, too, had a vast 'Grub Street' of hack writers leading hand-to-mouth lives in garrets. Dreaming of becoming philosophes, celebrated poets, and noted dramatists, they resentfully envied the Voltaires, Diderots, Montesquieus, D'Alemberts, and Marmontels leading privileged lives at the top levels of the Republic of Letters. Princeton University historian Robert Darnton has traced the radicalism of the French Revolution to The Literary Underground of the Old Regime (Cambridge MA and London: Harvard University Press, 1982). Peering below the High Enlightenment salon philosophes Darnton portrayed the underworld of garret scribblers, pirate publishers, pornographers, clandestine book peddlers, book smugglers, and police spies forming the literary underground of the Enlightenment. This literary underground merged into an underworld of swindlers, recruiting agents, pimps, prostitutes, pickpockets, blackmailers, and murderers. Darnton showed how this literary proletariat contributed to the fall of the Old Regime, providing the orators, demagogues, pamphleteers, and popular journalists of the French Revolution. The radicalism of the Revolution came from the vulgarized 'philosophy' of their scurrilous and semi-pornographic pamphlets attacking the vices of the aristocracy and clergy, rather than from the polite salon philosophism of the Voltaires, Montesquieus, Diderots, D'Alemberts, and Rousseaus. Below the exalted level of the Voltaires, Montesquieus, Diderots, and Rousseaus, lesser figures compiled the encyclopedias, dictionaries, digests, and anthologies so plentiful in 18th century France. Cruder hack work included writing for Government ministers, pamphleteering for the 'bulls' and 'bears' on the Bourse, publishing social gossip sheets, writing pornography, peddling prohibited books and pamphlets, and spying for the police. Many would-be philosophes survived by compiling anthologies, writing for journals, peddling manuscripts, or spying for the police. The salon was a preserve for the high philosophes, who left the cafes to the lower classes of litterateurs. Cafes were the antithesis of the salon, being open to everyone (like the Internet today!). In the early 19th century London's Grub Street and the French literary underground became stabilized in many European cities as 'Bohemia', the seed-bed of many noted writers, artists, and composers - and many influential revolutionaries and social critics. Like the 18th century French 'literary underground',19th century Bohemians survived by hack-work for commercial publishers pandering to mass taste. Gentlemen Enlightenment authors-like Montesquieu, Voltaire, Hume, Holbach, and Jefferson could be philosophers in their ample leisure time, but free-lance writers found no market for serious work. Instead, as noted by Alfred Salomon, 'the demands of the uneducated grew louder' for 'creators of entertainment, of pornography, and of horror stories.' These writers, 'separated from any form of Kulturtraeger and living on their wits alone', learned by the early 18th century to 'prefer each other's company to that of a hostile world.' They created 'their own life-pattern' as 'white-collar intellectuals' who lived by 'meeting the demands of their publishers and whose spare time was taken up with more serious efforts.' They formed 'a new social group', whose 'center' was 'not the court, nor the Church, but the coffeehouse.' Montesquieu 'discovered the social function of the coffeehouse - the home of the homeless intellectual' in the 18th century [Albert Salomon, 'The Messianic Bohemians', in George B. de Huszar, ed.,The Intellectuals: A Controversial Portrait (The Free Press of Glencoe, Illinois, 1960, reprinted from Salomon, The Tyranny of Progress [The Noonday Press, 1955]), p. 20] 'Coffehouse intellectuals' are 'bohemians... learned men who have not submitted to the rules of social and professional careers which the society around them takes for granted.' They are men 'utterly indifferent to the sources of their income', who 'do not care to pursue the organized channels of literary or academic advancement.' In the cafe, one could sit 'surrounded by poets, astronomers, military tacticians, revolutionaries, card- players, and philologists', Revolutions, too, were prepared in cafes. Thus, the German economist Emil Lederer and the Austrian Socialist leader Rudolf Hilferding discussed the possibility of a Russian revolution in a Viennese cafe in 1916. Lederer believed a revolution was impending while Hilferding skeptically answered, 'Who will make the revolution? Mr. Trotsky, perhaps, of the Central Cafe?' However, 'Mr. Trotsky stepped out of the cafe and made the revolution.' [Albert Salomon, 'The Messianic Bohemians', p. 21] The coffehouse 'belongs to the bohemians', as 'the salon of homeless thinkers, poets, and scientists, the drawing room of underpaid writers, their means of escape from the abysmal physical conditions under which they live.' Poverty has 'always been the supreme condition of he bohemian' from which 'he flees to the comparative warmth of the coffehouse.' Poverty gave Bohemians 'a set of defenses which have become, since the eighteenth century, standard procedure for non-conformists: the anarchical attitude towards the established goods of social conduct; the refusal to accept the normative requirements of manners, fashions, and conventions.' The 'routine requirements of society' have 'often forced men with a specific spiritual destination' like Baudelaire to 'escape into Bohemia.' [Albert Salomon, 'The Messianic Bohemians', p. 21] 18th century garret scribblers resented the prestige and pretensions of the salon philosophes. Since the late 19th century, a similarly under-appreciated underworld of autodidacts has been conducting a similar resentful vendetta on the now successful, prestigious, and 'mainstreamed' cultural descendants of the 18th century garret scribblers. They are cut off for various reasons from the established 'highbrow', academic- scholarly, scientific, labor-union, adult-education, 'mainline'- religious, or liberal/radical institutions, media, and communication channels of our time. The literary, philosophical, and ideological descendants of the garret scribblers are the 20th/21st century intellectual and cultural 'Establishment' - in effect the High Enlightenment philosophes of our time! They are now attacked by calorically well-fed but status- and appreciation-starved 'lean and hungry' poor souls in a more materially comfortable Electronic Age version of the 18th century garret underworld, who use the Internet as their 'cafe'! Most Forteans are decent and reasonable in their social attitudes and political instincts. However, there are also those in the Fortean community who nourish darker impulses, disquieting symptoms of the 'Ideology of Resentment', such as a weakness for anti-Semitic, anti-Masonic, anti-Jesuit, 'Illuminati', or 'New World Order' conspiracy theories. Syracuse University political scientist Michael Barkun, author of Religion and the Racist Right: Origins of the Christian Identity Movement (revised ed., 1997) and Disaster and the Millennium (1986), has described the bizarre, alarming subculture of UFO enthusiasts who also zealously believe in Jewish, Masonic, 'Illuminati', or 'New World Order' world domination conspiracy theories in A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America (2003). He traces the print, radio, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Sexual Manipulation Of Humans By Non-Human Entities From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:30:20 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:55:41 -0400 Subject: Sexual Manipulation Of Humans By Non-Human Entities Source: The Home Page Of J. Orlin Grabbe http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ Sexual Manipulation Of Humans By Non-Human Entities Although superior to mortals in many ways, [fairies] need humans to be parents to fairy offspring, thereby enriching their own bloodlines. Ufologists of the past and present have speculated that extraterrestrials abduct humans for the purposes of genetic engineering and interspecies breeding, as was presumably the case with Antonio Villas Boas (the case discussed by Gordon Creighton in Rogo's UFO Abductions) and with Debra Tomey - alias 'Kathie Davis' in Budd Hopkins' Intruders. Folklore evidence pointing to the sexual manipulation of humans by nonhuman entities, since time immemorial and throughout the world, is well documented. In both Genesis 6:4 and the apocryphal Book of Enoch (XV:3-8), the explanation given for the rebellion of the angels gainst God is that, after the creation of Adam, the angels lusted after the daughters of men and fornicated with them, so that they gave birth to a race of demons or evil giants. Like UFO occupants abusing humans, fairies abuse mortals as well. For this reason, people fear the fairies; they refer to them euphemistically as the Good People and the Gentle Folk. This is but a single example of the tradition of using apotropaisms to ward off evil effects. The Furies were called the "Eumenides," which means "the well disposed." The Black Sea is called the Hospitable Sea. In Part II, Act I, Scene 5 of Goethe's masterpiece, Faust protects himself against the mention of "the old heathen race" of the Goddesses: "The Mothers! The Mothers! It sounds so strange." C.G. Jung observed that the German people speak to each other in the plural, as a protective formality. Perhaps it is for the same reason that people today refer to aliens as the Space Brothers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Williams From: Walt Williams <walt_williams.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:38:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:59:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Williams >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:46:32 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? <snip> >Also as most UFOs are said to have high-speed spinning areas >and the spinning part could easily generate electricity, the >battery would not even be required. Hello Col and All, A buddy up at JPL pointed out to me one day while he and I were
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:24:00 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:01:44 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:35:40 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide I apologise for the delayed responses, I have been working extra shifts, and struggle to find the time at the moment to spend on ufology. This is probably the only post that I will be able to respond to today. <snip> >I was the one pointing out "odd discrepancies" in the history. >The way it still reads now is that "publicity campaign" was the >cause of Tizard's request to set up the Working Party (also did >he "request" or did he order it by direct command authority? if >he did not order the Working Party into existence whose >authority was responsible for commanding its creation?). Without any definitive record of the reasons for his decision to form the FSWP we can only speculate as to the reasons. By 1950, he had already held the post of Chief Scientific Adviser for a number of years. He could not have failed to notice the press coverage of the UFO phenomenon in the USA, yet he waited until 1950 to launch the FSWP. As you suggest, this might have been because of the high-profile military sightings that occured in the UK earlier that year - the question then is whether he heard about these via military channels or via the media. I think that there is a good case for it having been the media. >But the Working Party minutes and final report and the DSI >meeting minutes of Aug. 15, 1950, do not at all refer to any >"publicity" as the cause for setting up the Working Party. >Instead the final report refers to the "notable outbreak" of >sightings in Great Britain. Presumably the RAF sightings and >possible radar-visual of June 7 (and maybe Aug. 14), 1950, led >Tizard to request the Working Party be set up. If I'm missing >some reference to "publicity" somewhere in the official records >as the motivating factor please point it out to me. As I said there is no overt link between his decision and the media coverage, but there is also no overt link to any other stimulation for his decision - either way, it has to be speculation until and unless an overt link either way is uncovered. There is evidence of widespread press coverage in the run-up to his decision, but so far there is no evidence to support an alternative direct stimulus. >Otherwise the way the history reads now it looks like some >sleazy tabloid-type "publicity campaign" in October 1950 led to >creation of the Working Party on Aug. 15, 1950. The power of the press should not be lightly dismissed. Tizard would have been conscious that it would only be a matter of time before politicians would want to know what, if anything the Air Ministry were doing to investigate the situation. He could simply have been doing what all civil servants spend a lot of time and effort doing and covering his backside. <snip> [quoting from RV Jones] >"If Earth proves to be the one planet in the Solar system that >supports intelligent life, it is still possible that intelligent >beings from a more distant system have found the way to cross >intervening space in small craft without ageing on the long >journey; and, although it is unlikely, it is just possible that >the craft are small enough not to have shown up on astronomical >or radar surveys." This is not very far wide of my own view as it happens. >After a few more vacillations Jones remarks on the distinct pro- > UFO possibility of an unknown natural phenomenon (before making >the skeptical end remarks which were the _only_ ones quoted in >the Part 2 history): >"If known natural phenomena are insufficient to explain >everything that has been genuinely seen, the alternative to the >intelligently controlled vehicles is an as yet unrecognized >natural phenomenon. This is distinctly possible -- the case may >be similar to that of ball lightning, the occurrence of which >has long been both asserted and disputed." I'll defer to Nick to respond to your comments about his material specifically other than to comment that the view expressed by Jones is perfectly balanced, and not just deriding the possible ET origin of UFOs IMO. >Another comment in the history that is not accurate is the >following: >"Another indication of the strong US influence on the Flying >Saucer Working Party is the fact that their June 1951 final >report was entitled _Unidentified Flying Objects_.=C2 This term >had been devised by Ruppelt himself, early in 1951, but was not >at the time in use outside US Government circles." >Ruppelt was not in charge of Project Grudge until October 22, >1951, and thus could not possibly have "devised" the UFO term in >time for the June 1951 Working Party final report. The term >"unidentified flying objects" was in lower-case use in US >documents as early as 1947. Ruppelt did not start using the >abbreviation "UFO" and an upper-cased "Unidentified Flying >Objects" phrase until after Project Grudge changed names to Blue >Book in March 1952. Who actually originated this new usage and >abbreviation is unclear but it is clear that Ruppelt helped >popularize it. The official USAF designation due to Ruppelt's >influence, from 1952 onward for several years was "UFOB" rather >than "UFO". I take your point - it is surprising how many inaccurate (albeit often minor) details, when repeated often enough, become accepted as "fact". As an aside in relation to the origin of the term "UFO", I came across an article on the internet attributed to "Fate" magazine (July 2000) at: http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/article.php?id=3D37 which included the following paragraph: "Father of Ufology? Air Marshal Sir Victor Goddard had a long and successful career. He joined the Royal Navy in 1910 when he was 13 years old, later transferring to the RAF in 1918. He is thus considered one of the founders of the RAF. As Deputy Head of the RAF Delegation to the United States, he was stationed in Washington, D.C., from 1946 until 1948. He represented the RAF on the combined Chiefs of Staff Advisory Committee and coined the word ufology in 1946 when there was an outbreak of UFO sightings." Which if true, appears to pre-date Ruppelt's claim.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Cigar-Shaped UFO Photographed Near Chilean Volcano From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:40:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:05:04 -0400 Subject: Cigar-Shaped UFO Photographed Near Chilean Volcano INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 18, 2005 Source: Terra.Cl Date: March 30, 2005 Chile: Cigar-Shaped UFO photographed over Volcano A mysterious cigar-shaped object was photographed in the vicinity of the Osorno volcano; local residents claim such phenomena are common in the region (TERRA.cl) Santiago March 30 - During the month of February and in the midst of summer vacation in the vicinity of Lake Llanquihue, a variety of aerial phenomena were reported that were subsequently associated with the UFO phenomenon. Farmers from neighboring communities furnished eyewitness reports in strange lights with irregular movements, usually vanishing from sight near the Osorno Volcano. One such sighting was recorded on Jorge Quinn's photo camera as he spent his vacation near the site. The image was completely accidental and the UFO's presence was discovered only after his return to Santiago de Chile. The image shows a cigar-shaped UFO, a configuration catalogued as one of the most common and largest in the UFO phenomenon. It should be noted that Southern Chile is considered a 'hot zone' on a global level as regards the presence of unidentified flying objects. Over the past 20 years, highly interesting photographs of unknown objects have been recorded in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: Michael Salla - Hicks From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:00:45 +0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:18:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Hicks >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>Subject: Michael Salla <snip> >Mr. Salla is probably only >exhibiting a lack of UFO history knowledge and a feel for the >subject. He says he was never interested before encountering the >Greer Disclosure Press Club Conference in 2001. I fall into this category too. Now, having just read Project Beta, I have to consider the possibility that Dr Greer may very well be another Paul Bennewitz???
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 20 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:27:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:48:52 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 20 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 20 May 18, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ MYSTERY OBJECT DROPS BY PARACHUTE IN VIRGINIA A mysterious electronic object, attached to an orange parachute, descended from the sky, alarming residents of Augusta Street in Martinsville, Virginia (population 15,416). "It was a long afternoon for safety officials in Henry County," located in Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains just north of the state line with North Carolina. On Thursday, May 12, 2005, "officers from six different agencies responded to a call in Henry County about a 'mysterious object' falling from the sky into a residential backyard." "The UFO, described as a small, orange-colored parachute attached to an electronic device, first hit the roof of a house on Augusta Street" in Martinsville, Va. "before coming to rest on the ground." "The homeowner, concerned that the object might be an explosive device, contacted police." "Once officers from the Henry County Sheriff's Office, the Martinsville Police Department, Henry County Department of Public Safety, Dyer Stone Volunteer Fire Department and the (federal) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) arrived, the object didn't stay unidentified for long." "Authorities at the scene were able to determine the item was a device released by the National Weather Service, used for transmitting weather reports." "Joseph Freeman Jr. had just returned to his Henry County home when he noticed an orange material on the roof. He pulled the object down and that's when he saw a brick-sized box with electronics in it on the ground. The object might have looked like a slice of alien life to some people. Or, even worse, a homemade bomb on the verge of detonation." "Reality was far less ominous. The mystery object turned out to be a device used to transmit weather data to the National Weather Service." "Freeman, 77, was returning home from walking Mattie, his bloodhound, when he discovered the mysterious object about noon Thursday," May 12, 2005, "on the roof of his house in eastern Henry County." "'I really didn't know what it was,' Freeman said, 'It looked like a bomb, but I didn't think it was a bomb.'" "He went inside to get his wife, who suffers from diabetes, out of bed. Virgie Freeman, 79, didn't know what to make of it, either. Two of the neighbors came over to see what the commotion was and recommended they call police." "The devices--called radiosondes--are released twice a day at 92 National Weather Service sites, including one in Blacksburg, Va., meteorologist William Perry said. Radiosondes have been used for more than 60 years. Radiosondes are really expendable instrument packages attached to a helium balloon, Perry said. They rise 1,000 feet (300 meters) per minute and measure (air) pressure, relative humidity, temperature and wind." Martinsville, Va. is on Routes 58 and 108, located 51 miles (83 kilometers) south of Roanoke. (See the Roanoke, Va. Times for May 13, 2005, "Many agencies get dispatched to mystery box." Many thanks to Mary Lou Jones-Drown and Robert Fischer for this newspaper article.) LUMINOUS UFOs APPEAR OVER NORTH WALES "Mysterious lights appearing in the night sky over North Wales were baffling experts" on Sunday night, May 8, 2005. "Former DIY store manager John White is seeking answers after catching sight of the strange lights near his rural home." "He took nine hours' video footage of the lights near his house in Llannefydd, near Denbigh," North Wales, UK "over the past five weeks." "But Ministry of Defence (MoD) chiefs have so far failed to come up with an explanation." "Between one and three separate lights have turned up regularly." "They appear as bright spots, changing colours between blue, red, orange and purple." "The unidentified flying objects sometimes pulse or shimmer and grow in size before shrinking back." "They also move silently across the night sky. The 60-year-old first noticed them midway through March (2005)." "They continued to appear. Intrigued, Mr. White splashed out hundreds of pounds on video recording equipment to capture them in action." "He said: 'I had just gone into the room to pick up my glasses. I looked through the window, and I could see this light. I didn't know what it was.'" "'I have viewed them through my binoculars. They pulse all sorts of colours, reds, blues, greens and purples. You would also get sparks of white light. I contacted the police and they told me to get in touch with the Ministry of Defence. A man there took a look and he had no idea what they were.'" "'One night, one came down from the east and then it moved slowly across the sky, making no noise. Another night, there were three of them in a line.'" "Other people have come to Mr. White's house to view the mysterious lights, but so far they remain baffled, he said." "'I don't know what they are. But I would like somebody to tell me,' he said." "Police said they were unaware of reports of the lights." "Nick Pope, who used to run the MoD's UFO project desk, said, 'When I ran the desk, 80 percent of all sightings were explicable; for 15 percent, there was not enough evidence to make a judgement; and 5 percent were unexplained. This case certainly sounds very interesting. It seems like it warrants further proper scientific investigation.'" "The MoD declined to comment." (See the Caernafon- Denbigh Herald for May 9, 2005, "Anybody out there?" Many thanks to Rosalind Murray for forwarding this newspaper article.) UFOs SPOTTED AROUND UK Monday, May 9, 2005, saw a flurry of UFO sightings in UK, in areas other than Wales. At approximately 9:30 p.m., Brian Manchester was at the Hanover House car park on Toller Lane in Bradford, West Yorkshire when his encounter occurred. "I went out to retrieve my car at 9:30 p.m. last night and saw a strange and pulsating 'object' in the sky above me," Brian reported, "It made no noise. It looked to be very large and was brightly lit all over the shape of it, which appeared to be like a double cross, or # if you prefer. There appeared to be red, green and white lights on it." "After watching for half an hour, another similar- looking 'object' glided quite fast but stealthily across the sky beneath the first one, from my left to my right. The first one remained stationary." "It also seemed that there was at least one more of these 'things' parked quite a bit higher in the sky and also not moving. No aircraft or any other noise was observed. I and a neighbour of mine both stood witness to these things and observed regularly until I went to bed at 1:20 a.m. today (Tuesday, May 10, 2005), and the 'big one' was still sitting there." "I reported this event by telephone to the Toller Lane Police Court--twice--and the female operator never even asked for my name. She said they were 'busy.'" The same day, Monday, May 9, 2005, at 2 a.m., at Guernsey in the Channel Islands, eyewitness Andrea M. reported, "I turned around and saw something and then it was gone. I didn't see it depart. It consisted of bright lights that looked like stars but so bright it didn't seem possible. The lights were two metres (6 feet, 6 inches) apart and in the shape of a flat circle. I would estimate that they were 400 feet (120 meters) above ground." Two days later, on Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 10:25 p.m., eyewitness Gary Frayne saw a UFO approach from the north in New Ollerton, Nottinghamshire, UK. Gary reported, "It was a continuous bright light moving quite fast. A very bright light, red in colour. It was faster than anything we can produce on this Earth." (Email Form Reports) NIGHT SAUCER SEEN OVER KUUJJUAQ, QUEBEC On Monday, May 9, 2005, at 11:25 p.m., Ida S. was outdoors at her home in Kuujjuaq in northern Quebec province, Canada when she noticed something strange in the sky approaching from the northeast. "I have seen many lighted objects in the night sky for several years now," Ida reported, "and have known that these objects are not airplanes. Last night, around 11:25 p.m., I immediately noticed that one had come down quite low in the sky. I could see that it was around 2,000 to 3,000 feet (600 to 900 meters) off the ground. I could see at least five different lights on it from my (vantage) point. Next, I could tell that there was no sound and that there were more than the five lights that I saw." "It was moving at a constant, very slow speed and was coming ever lower as it moved towards the northeast. I phoned a friend, who is also a fellow night-sky watcher and told her to check outside right away, and she saw the same thing. This was quite exciting for both of us because what we saw was not from this Earth." "The object was grey, round, with lights around the middle part of it (equator--J.T.). It was between 2,000 and 3,000 feet (600 to 900 meters) from the ground, moving slowly at a speed of about 30 kilometers per hour (18 miles per hour--J.T.) and descending at an angle of approximately 30 degrees from the southeast to the northeast." (Email Form Report) SPHERICAL GREY UFO SEEN IN RESCUE, CALIFORNIA On Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 7 a.m., eyewitness Geraldine Hansen watched a UFO take off near her home in Rescue, California. "I was lying in bed that morning, looking out my bedroom window, afraid to move," Geraldine reported, "The object was flying up from the ground in front of my window. It was spherical in shape, about 12 inches (30 centimeters) in circumference, elongated in length." Once the UFO was airborne, "there were blunt spheres coming out of the object. Slightly elongated spheres coming from the larger sphere. I saw them flying just outside my bedroom window." "Could this be a government test object that got loose in the (Sierra Nevada) foothills?" (Email Form Report) WHITE UFOs SIGHTED OVER ATLANTA, GEORGIA On Saturday, May 7, 2005, the eyewitness and his girlfriend were relaxing in Grant Park, at the intersection of Atlanta Avenue and Boulevard Road, in Atlanta, Georgia (population 416,474) when they spotted something unusual in the sky. "I sat on a blanket with my girlfriend in broad daylight and spotted what initially looked like white balloons rising in the sky," he reported, "The central thought was that these objects looked much like (Mexican ufologist Jaime) Maussan's video and the Mexican military films of white spherical objects. They passed in the sky" above Grant Park "either alone or in groups, trailing as many as 6 to 10 at a time. They were seemingly flying in formations (consisting) of widely-spaced triangles." "At one point, my friend's two-year-old son spotted one, and the neighbors joined us. All five of us saw this highly irregular phenomenon. In all, we saw 40 to 50 objects over the two-day period," Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, 2005. He described the UFOs as "white, spherical, illuminated in a bright blue sky, the only other objects in the sky were planes and contrails. Height (altitude) is hard to say, but their highest speed was slower than (commercial) jets, maybe just over 100 miles per hour (160 kilometers per hour--J.T.), maybe less. Some hovered and moved very slowly. There was no press coverage." (Email Form Report) CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN UK, MEXICO AND GERMANY On Tuesday, May 3, 2005, researchers discovered a giant crop circle in a field of oilseed rape in Garsington, Oxfordshire, UK. The formation was described as "a big, galaxy-like, double spiral." British cerealogist Christine Munro reported, "On 3rd May, I was asked to check out a possible crop circle in this area by Mark Fussell. I spent about five hours combing the location and asked a couple of farm workers but could find nothing. Well, it seems that I was mistaken. There is a major crop circle at this location. The formation is impossible to see from the ground anywhere. I could say that it looked very impressive, and certainly it looked messy." Ms. Munro cautioned that the formation might be the work of "plankers" (hoaxers who create fake circles using boards or planks--J.T.) but noted that the formation was found close to the site of the April 2004 "Gotham Galaxies" crop formation. In Mexico, a large crop formation was found on Sunday, May 1, 2005 near the city of Morelia in the state of Michoacan. "It was first seen at dawn on Sunday, May 1, in a field of oats. A paranormal organization, La Esfera Azul (Translated: The Blue Sphere--J.T.) is conducting the investigation and took photographs of the formation." Mexican researchers noted that the crop circle was found adjacent to the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere area, the site of two important wildlife sanctuaries, Sierra Chincua and El Rosario. Morelia, the capital of Michoacan state, is located about 200 kilometers (120 miles) west of Mexico City. In Germany, the first crop circle of the year 2005 was discovered in a field of oilseed rape between Berwangen and Massenbachhausen in the southern state of Baden-Wurttemberg. The discovery was made on Sunday, May 1, 2005. (Many thanks to Robert Fischer for the UK report; to Ruben Uriate of MUFON and Jeffrey Wilson of the Independent Crop Circle Research Association for the Mexican report; and to Jurgen Schneider for the German report.) ROVER OPPORTUNITY GETS STUCK IN MARTIAN SANDS "The Mars rover Opportunity is facing its biggest challenge since it landed on the Red Planet" in January 2004: "how to get out of a sand dune where it's been stuck for two weeks." "Engineers spent this week simulating the Martian terrain at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena," California, "to try to figure out why the robot got bogged down and how to get it moving again. Engineers performed several tests driving a dummy rover over a man-made sand dune." "Scientists sent the first new driving directions to Opportunity on Wednesday," May 11, 2005, "commanding it to start inching down from the dune in a series of 'mini- drives.'" "The six-wheeled Opportunity had driven about 130 feet (40 meters) of a planned 295-foot (88-meter) trip when its wheels started to slip (Tuesday) April 26 (2005)." (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for May 12, 2005, "Rover stuck in sand dune," page 2A.) MISSING LANDER FOUND NEAR MARTIAN SOUTH POLE "Five and a half years after it descended into the Martian atmosphere and was never heard from again, the Mars Polar Lander may have been found." "Photos taken from orbit by another NASA spacecraft, the Mars Global Surveyor, show a white dot--presumably the lander--within a dark gray oval apparently created by blast marks from the lander's rocket engine." "About 1,300 feet (390 meters) away is a white blob that could be the lander's parachute. The site falls within the 40-mile (64-kilometer) long, 10-mile (16- kilometer) wide ellipse near the Martian South Pole where the Polar Lander was expected to end up." "'The location of the candidate parachute with respect to the lander is consistent with the slight west- to-east wind seen in dust-cloud motion in the area around the time of the crash,' wrote Dr. Michael C. Malin, president of Malin Space Science Systems, which operates the Global Surveyor camera, in an article that will appear in the July (2005) issue of Sky and Telescope." "The site was first suggested in 2000, but Malin said that the success last year in photographing the landing sites of the Opportunity and Spirit rovers led him to take another look at the images of the Polar Lander site, taken in 1999 and 2000." "The white blob is of similar brightness to the Opportunity and Spirit parachutes, which were made of similar material, and similar blast marks were also seen at those landing sites." "The photographs support the findings of an investigation panel that concluded that the deployment of the landing legs during descent had fooled the Polar Lander into thinking it had already touched the ground, leading it to shut off its engine while still about 130 feet (40 meters) in the air." "'It was only a few short moments before touchdown that disaster struck,' Malin wrote." "The disappearance of the $165 million Mars Polar Lander on December 3, 1999 and of the $125 million Mars Climate Orbiter three months earlier, threw NASA's Mars program into disarray." (See the Duluth, Minn. News- Tribune for May 10, 2005, "Photos may show wreckage of Mars Polar Lander," page 7A.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth...and occasionally, Mars...brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you in seven days. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 18 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:04:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:04:59 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:26:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:43:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>Giant UFO sightings that fall through and get shown to be >>nothing more than prosaic phenomena give ufology a black >>eye. The longer they fester the more a laughing stock >>ufology becomes. Lets try to prevent that. >The Apollo 16 film didn't really fall through the cracks; >several messages were posted about it on this List quite some >... I was referring to Campeche and UFO balloon fleets. I appreciate being able to post the Apollo analysis here. >If you really want to put your findings in the permanent record, >I'd suggest that you submit a paper to the Journal of Scientific >Exploration. It published a paper previously arguing that the >object was a large spacecraft, so I think the editors would feel >obligated to publish your counter argument, which seems >conclusive to me. I sort of can see your point, but is this journal truly a peer review? If they can publish the orginal "analysis" of the Apollo UFO, then this implies a low level of merit required for inclusion. Anyway, that journal is more interested in verifying phenomena than showing such phenomena is not real. Also, if the magazines were easier for the public to get their hands on, then it may be worthwhile. The Internet seems the best was to disseminate both real UFO case analyses and hype UFO videos and stories. It would be nice to have a site like Science Frontiers that keeps track of these anomalie updates. We still have the standard magazines to try to get an article in (pro and con UFO oriented, too bad there is no balanced magazine, at least as viewed by the community). >As for Oberg (belatedly) picking up the story, this is >the only kind of UFO article that he and his corporate >employers will publish for mass consumption: "Big >UFO Case Debunked." What gives better ratings: debunked UFO story or non-debunked UFO story? I think you know the answer. Aren't the publishers/media more interested in readership and vast piles of cash and pushing a left wing agenda and political power? I think that if they would publish "proved" UFO stories if such existed. Think of the ratings! The media publishes that the Koran is flushed down the toilet with the flimsiest basis merely for their desire for ratings and money and power, why not the same for flimsy UFO cases? And such is the case. >They do this periodically, apparently because they >want to impress upon the public the opinion that all >unexplained UFO cases could be "logically" explained >if there were sufficient information. I would hope the public has learned by now that you can't generalize this way. But really, the number of UFO cases that are left flapping in the wind which are like "just-so" stories is a mightly pile! And apparently they have impacted the opinion of the public (based on poll results). We all know that they add a line that "astronomers say it was a meteor or Venus". But the rest of the article is hype about the case and people eat it up. It gives readers! They aren't going to emphasize the explanation or debunking because this is not what the public cares to read. The editors have done their market research. >They seldom if ever permit any other opinion to be >heard. I have not seen an analysis of all news stories that justifies this conclusion. They give even the folk who swim with dolphins to better communicate with ET some (albeit little) coverage. True, the UFO believers and abductees are not treated favorably or fairly. But this is part of the media game. They know this is what the public wants to hear (i.e. making fun of some small group not approved of by the majority). Actually, it seems that the UFO believers are being treated a little more favorably in recent years. >The art of propaganda isn't about telling lies; it's about telling >half- truths, and Oberg is a master of that art.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Adams From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:27:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:31:37 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Adams >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:03:22 -0500 >>Subject: New Phoenix UFO Video >>It's possibly a triangle or rectangular craft, rotating counter- >>clockwise, horizontally, inside a cloud possibly in some type of >>stealth mode. Note: Clockwise viewed from below, counterclockwise from above. >Brian: >If you wish to see a larger version of this video, I just posted >one on my web site. Let me assure you the video is quite real. >However, the object/lights in the video may certainly raise some >questions, as they do seem to move rather unconventionally. The >lights were just as strange to the naked eye, in that the place >in which they reappear certainly left me with the impression >that it was traveling at an incredible speed. >http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/jeffwilles5-12-2005.wmv >or >http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS.html First of all Rob, your group is to be congratulated for this video. It's fantastic! I like listening to comments by Jeff et al as well. >When I joined this List a couple months back, I did so with the >intent of soliciting scientific help in the form of instruments >and expertise. This problem or need has since been satisfied, >perhaps not quickly enough however, as they were not in place >for this event. We did have a Cannon XL1 rolling as well as a >35mm Camera taking 30 sec. exposures at the time, but they were >focused elsewhere. Maybe it knew it was testing your guys. How could you know? >This sighting is a good example of what I consider "missed >opportunity". While in this instance I happened to take Jeff and >another gentleman to this site, it could just as easily been a >team of researchers with the instruments and expertise to obtain >much more valuable data then a single video clip. In fact, about >65 minutes after the video was shot, a closer more interesting >light was observed, but we had just packed up our equipment. Again, how could you know? But your first hand witnesses are pretty nice to help corroborate this excellent sighting. >Let me say I suffer from the same "affliction" many on the List >may feel James Smith to also be infected with. In fact, it was >because I shared this need for evidence via the scientific >method, that I originally inquired of him as to whom on the list >might have the resources/instruments to obtain such data. >Discussions about UFOs appearing in the background of old films >is all fine and dandy, but in reality it is... well, verbal >masturbation in my opinion. IMO I thought it was a boom mike moving back and forth on a closed set. The set lights were reflecting off the silver mike causing the saucerlike appearance. >While I admit my experience in this field is lacking and the >method I propose (which is identical to what James has >suggested) may seem like a shot in the dark, it is instances >just like the capturing of the video above, that illustrate the >validity of this approach. I heard Jeff Willes on C2C with Art Bell last Sunday night and Jeff explained it perfectly. Your group is watching the ufo hot spots and last Thurs night you guys hit it correct. Jeff also mentioned that he has had more daylight sightings than nighttime ones. They're even more perplexing because you just want to stare at them and watch what they're going to do next. Here's my daytime triangle sighting I had in April 1995 at believe it or not the Ozarks UFO Conference in Eureka Springs Arkansas. It was just after the Sat afternoon speaker session for the dinner break and a group of us from Springfield, MO were outside discussing dinner plans. I noticed that my friend Dave Schnelle kept looking up in the clear blue sky. Time 445pm. I asked Dave what he was looking at and he said it's something strange up in the sky. So I looked up and sure enough a large triangular craft suddenly appeared. I mean it must be huge. As large as your thumbnail at arms length away. The only reason I believe it became visible is because it was reflecting the setting sunlight. It was motionless for a only a few moments but you could easily see rectangular panels on the underneath side of this craft. It was really bright white then poof it disappeared not to be seen again after watching for it several minutes. It seemed to be in high orbit when just at the right moment fortunately Dave and I observed it only by chance due to the sunlight glinting off it at that precise angle. >Wanting disclosure is valid and understandable, needing it is >giving up control and creating dependence. I believe most really do believe in alien controlled ufos but by our gov't keeping this charade going it only makes them look uneasy. That may be the real problem. There'd be a lot of explaining to do. Just by denying or ridiculing this disclosure thing to the end won't ever cut it. What are the most popular movies? UFOs, space/futuristic scifi, and humans battling aliens. Coincidence? No way. BTW, I'll be at Star Wars midnight tonight. >Don't just meet science half way... use the tools and methods it >offers to obtain the data/proof that has proved allusive to >date. Witness Reports can be very valuable, but this value is >not in the form of proof, but in the form of maximization of >opportunity. IMO Making the effort to perform this task is another way of saying it. Great job Rob and to your loyal group of ufo skywatchers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:32:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:33:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video <snip> >The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, >We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's >characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent >with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement >in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 >footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. The Mexican "UFO fleets" were strongly advocated as strange because the objects supposedly kept rigid formation and _didn't_ mill about like birds. This led to much talk of balloons and string. Now the objects in this video plainly _do_ mill about. Like birds, just as the photographer says. So "same behaviour, same movement"? How can that be? "Perfect synchronised formation"? Not the video I'm watching. What exactly are these "characteristics and parameters" you studied, Santiago? What is the FOV of the camera lens? What different zooms are applied here? What is the focal distance? How near the lens is the tree branch? What are the individual and collective angular rates of these objects? What are their angular sizes? Is the camera pointing low in the sky or near the zenith? Where is the sun in relation to the photographer? How do
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 The Future of the Space-Alien Meme From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:35:23 -0400 Subject: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme The Future of the Space-Alien Meme by Mac Tonnies http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com Throughout history, the UFO phenomenon has been one step ahead of human capability. Our definition of the "other" has been quietly revised and reinvented in a parade of forms ranging from faerie folk to phantom airships to ghost rockets to NASA-esque flying saucers complete with alien "crew." If we are in fact observing an unknown intelligence, it has proven remarkably adept at insinuating itself into the belief- structure of any given era, comfortably skating the razor's edge of plausibility. It implants itself in our collective unconscious, an abiding trickster that entices us with the possibility of catching up at the same time that it morphs into more fashionable disguises. The phenomenon is a constantly moving goal-post - and we're largely amnesiac of any duplicity. Whether we think we see an indigenous nonhuman species in our midst, as in the case of the Celtic faerie faith, or the comings and goings of eccentric aeronauts (the "impossible" airship sightings of the 1800s), we always think what we're viewing is genuine. Then, in a now-recognizable pattern, the performance changes. Since we invariably change alongside it, we fail to note that our visitors have merely upgraded their image to match prevailing notions. Thus, the most widely accepted exotic explanation for apparent alien craft in our skies - the extraterrestrial hypothesis, with its Westernized nuts-and-bolts trappings - is likely a facade. If the UFO intelligence has been with the human species since prehistory, perhaps it's naive to assume the "aliens" will stick around in their present form once we've achieved their evident level of sophistication. If we can refrain from destroying ourselves, it's probable we will develop into a star-faring civilization. What then? The enigma and mythological luster of visiting space-aliens will have lost its appeal. If the UFO intelligence wants to continue interacting with us (for whatever reasons), it will be forced to adopt a new appearance; it will have to find a new mythical substrate in which to sow its memes. That's assuming, of course, that humans a thousand years from now will still be blinkered by the capacity for belief. If we evolve into a "posthuman" state, as argued by a growing faction of thinkers in fields such as artificial intelligence and genetic engineering, there's no telling for certain how our perceptions will mutate to accommodate our new abilities. We may shed the dubious luxury of belief altogether... leaving the "ufonauts" stranded in the realm from which they originate, unable to continue their theatrical dialogue. Or we may, finally, be able to discern the face behind the veil. As our technological prowess exponentiates, accompanied by a corresponding "physics of consciousness," today's perceived saucer-pilots may be rendered suddenly vulnerable. Equally disconcerting, we might find ourselves surrounded by newfound peers... if, of course, the phenomenon allows matters to progress that far. Pioneering anomalist Charles Fort claimed that "we are property," a notion that seems disquietingly "Matrix"-like. But if Fort was right, we're not necessarily celestial chattel, doomed to an eternity of solipsistic antics. Our "visitors" may be our not-so-distant relatives, or even ancestors from some unimaginable future intent on nurturing their own historical time-line. (A time-travel hypothesis could help account for a variety of bizarre behavior associated with UFOs and paranormal visitation. Ultimately, it may make more sense to view the enigma as a concerted effort from the depths of time rather than an anthropological mission from deep-space; this may, in fact, be the ufonauts' most portentous secret, concealed by millennia of distraction and misinformation.) Transhumanists speak in awed, increasingly confident tones of an imminent Singularity, beyond which forecasting the future becomes an exercise in futility. Elliptically enough, perhaps we're just now beginning to fashion the conceptual and technological tools that enable our visitors to operate in such consummate stealth. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:11:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:38:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Hall >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:51:20 +0200 >Subject: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >Almost _four_ years ago, Katharina Wilson wrote: >>From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:16:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Wilson >>There is a scientifically based, >>double blind electronic monitoring of abductees going on as we >>speak, but I was asked to keep the details private until the >>experiment was completed, so we all have something very >>interesting to look forward to on that front. >One year ago, Nick Pope informed us about Professor Chris French >scientific study into the alien abduction phenomenon. >I also remember a comment, maybe by Dick Hall, about another >scientific study into the alien abduction without much more >data. >Well, I am a little upset about all those experiments that never >got published... usually because the results did not fulfill the >expectations. Can anybody update these or other examples? Luis and List, It was me who mentioned the abduction monitoring project undertaken by the UFO Research Coalition. I was in on the conception and early planning of this project. I just made inquiries and learned that the actual monitoring and data-gathering phase is long since concluded, and they have been trying to locate an independent statistician to analyze the data. The trouble is the same one plaguing serious, scientific UFO investigation across the board: lack of money. The estimated shortfall of funds to complete the job is about $4,000. If anyone knows of a potential sponsor or of a well-qualified professional willing to work pro bono or for practically nothing, please let me know privately and I will have the Coalition contact him or her.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:43:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:13 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>Re. that silver sphere in the google maps satellite photo, >>http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/12/ufo/ >>... to me the fuzziness doesn't look like 'out of focus' >>fuzziness. The sphere itself does have a well defined outline, >>which it wouldn't if it were simply out of focus. >>Increasingly, it's beginning to look as if anti gravity >>involves strong and perhaps new field types which interact with >>gravity waves (per Tom Bearden for one) and it's quite likely >>that the fuzzing in that photo was due to an advanced field type >>rather than out of focus. >The real analysis shows something less than an alien spacecraft. >I agree with the work of the fewllow at the below links. >http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ >This link shows the realtive position of each sphere on the >image. A nice rectalinear layout. >http://www.flickr.com/photos/48556057.nul/13647471/ >So the assessment that it is likely registration dots to >match/patch images from different sources makes sense. >The question is raised as to whether the images is actually a >satellite images at all. I agree. If you look at Terraserver you >will see that the images with the most detail are aircraft >flyover images (usually over urban areas). >So, without the original image, I wouldn't imagine >to claim its an image of an alien craft. >But it was pretty interesting. Hi James, If they are registration marks they are a fuzzy and imprecise representation of same. Usually crosshairs or right angled marks - reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right into a thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. Why would this particular satellite - or aircraft - camera resort to such an imprecise method? Additionally, some of the white fuzzy dots are only half visible. Not solved for me as yet. How about a high altitude scientific balloon - 300-400 feet in diameter, or smaller - hanging nearly motionless in the same spot for an hour or so, with the aircraft shooting on different east west tracks and getting parallex images of the same object each time? This would make the image appear to be in different places and fuzzy due to the focal length if the balloon was thousands of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:27:39 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:57:53 -0300 >Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:51:18 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:14:56 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul com> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul net> >>>>Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:36:41 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta <snip> >>>>You for example accept that the government 'lies', >>>>but don't accept that the government can and does withdraw >>>>public documents and hard evidence for the purpose of >>>>discrediting whistleblowers and witnesses. >What is the basis for this claim? Please don't invoke Lazar and >Corso to establish its validity. Do you have a specific example >to provide with a source that can be checked? I supose you are >saying that Lazar had his degrees stolen along with his thesis >and his mind was messed with so he can't provide names of his >profs (Duxler certainly wasn't one) or his thesis advisors. So >how come the government missed Pierce JC?. Or is that because he >was commuting between Pierce in the San Fernando Valley and MIT? Aloha Stan, There are a number of sources which we can use to accept claims that the 'secret' government can and does withdraw public documents and hard evidence. First we can look at the 'standard' policy of UFO crash retreival teams that sanitise areas of all hard evidence and intitimdate witnesses to maintain silence. This happened at Roswell, where witnesses were intimidated and evidence removed. Maj Marcel for example was forced to play along with the official weather balloon version until he decided to go public as you well know given your role in him coming forward. In effect, he was discredited and other witnesses were initmidated into silence back in 1947. Second, we can look at Majestic Documents such as SOM-01 where a procedure for crash retreivals is outlined and it's explicitly mentioned that discrediting and intimidating witnesses is standard operational policy (see Ch 3. 12. c.). So we have documentary evidence that discrediting and intimidating witnesses is part of the 'cover up'. It's safe to infer from SOM-01 that this is also the case also for whistleblowers, and that intimidating and discrediting whistleblowers is standard operating procedure. Removing credentials and public documents would be a pretty effective way of discrediting whistleblowers. Finally, we have the testimonies of whistleblowers who describe how documents were withdrawn and intimidation used in their own cases. In addition to Lazar, we have Daniel Burisch, Michael Wolf, Phil Schneider as some of the whistleblowers who claim that this happened to them. Also military whistleblowers such as Clifford Stone, Dan Sherman and Daniel Salter claim that their military records do not contain reference to their true assignments and training for UFO crash retreival teams or 'psychic communnications' with ETs. I know you dismiss these whistleblowers as credible since there is no documentary evidence to back up their claims. However, if they claim that the documentary evidence of their education, employment or service have been withdrawn or simply not recorded, then its wrong to make such documents part of the threshold criteria for assessing whistleblower credibility as you do. That's a methodological weakness in your research approach and reflects circular thinking. We simply need to develop social science criteria for assessing whistleblower claims, and not assume that documents and hard evidence will give us the answers. <snip> >>Michael Wolf is a very interesting and complicated case as you >>well know. Firstly, Wolf's brother, Ron Kruvant, changed his >>story after Michael Wolf died. Ron Kruvant was previously >>interviewed and confirmed what Michael had to say about his >>government education, UFO contacts, etc. I think we should >>consider what factors drove Ron Kruvant to change his story >>before you jump the gun and use his changed testimony to >>discredit Wolf. Stories about Michael being in a Mental hospital >>were made by his sister who was ten years Michael's junior and >>was too young to remember Michael's activities with UFO's and >>recruitment by the government, both of which were initially >>confirmed before Ron Kruvant's retraction. >Sorry wrong again. An old friend of Michael's sent a copy of the >court document in which Michael's mother asked for more support >because of the cost of his being in a mental hospital. I have no >reason to think Ron changed his story based on my conversations >with him. I find this document you allege to have rather strange. What is the likelihood that an 'old friend' would have such a document and send it to you? It sounds suspicious to me. If you have it, can you fax me a copy or scan it for the forum? I'd like to confirm it and see exactly what it says. Until then, I choose to remain sceptical about the veracity and source of such a document. As far as Ron Kruvant changing his story. That's a fact and something that was reported by a credible researcher who interviewed Ron Kruvant 2 years before he changed his story. If you did not pick up that Ron Kruvant had changed his story, that suggests that you asked the wrong questions and weren't aware of what other researchers such as Jim Courant, Paola Harris and Michael Hesseman had learned. >>Michael Wolf himself >>admited in an interview that his sister was mentally disturbed >>so it's perhaps no surprise that she now accuses Wolf of this. >I haven't talked to the sister. I looked at the document and >talked to Ron and old friends. >>As for your statements that Michael was not in the military, >>close to the Clintons, and had no degrees, these are based on >>lack of documentation. Lack of documentation does not prove >>Michael Wolf was lying, it merely points to that and a number of >>alternative explanations. >Have you constructed a time-line to allow for all the education >and to become a colonel and a pilot? For a guy who flunked out >of Upsala... no record of law, Medical or Physics degrees, no >names of thesis advisors, no theses or titles therefor, no >pre-med, no physics background before MIT and Cal Tech, no >published papers, no membership in Amer. Phys. Soc. This for a >guy who lived in a tiny apartment and couldn't afford to pay in >advance for his burial..... A guy who claimed to be emeritus >chairman of a Research Institute employing more than 75 people >but whose address was his tiny apartment and for which not even >Dunn and Bradstreet could find any evidence..... Michael, I do >have a nice bridge near Brooklyn that I would be happy to sell >you at a real bargain price Stan, it's well known that the Brooklyn bridge is only sold on leap years. What do you take me for? As for Michael Wolf's education, I believe Michael Wolf's and Ron Kruvant's testimony that Michael was secretly recruited into a government education program as a child prodigy due to his precocious mental abilities to be very credible. Michael Wolf was a precocious child and at a very early age displayed remarkable intellectual abilities and a capacity to communicate with UFOs . George Hunt Williams wrote about Michael's successful efforts in his book, Road In The Sky (1959). Here's what Williamson wrote about Wolf when only 14 years of age (he was born 1941): "On December 24, 1955, Michael W. Kruvant, director of the Flying Saucer Research Association of South Orange, New Jersey, transmitted a message to outer space intelligences via his light beam equipment. Five seconds after the message had gone out, two oval-shaped objects passed over his house in a northern direction. The great confirmation in this sighting is the fact that Mr. Kruvant had specifically asked in his transmitted message that the UFOs go over heading north to let him know his message had been received. A very nice Christmas Eve gift for one Earthman!" (p. 150). So here we have independent confirmation that Wolf was initiating communications with ETs at 14 years of age, and headed a nascent Flying Saucer Association in New Jersey that attracted the attention of a well known UFO researcher. This substantiates Wolf's claim that government authorities took a keen interest in Wolf's communnications with ETs, his education, and then recruited him into a government sponsored education program. Trying to construct a timeline for what appears to be a child prodigy is not likely to be fruitful in my view. Normal timelines for completing medical degrees, PhD, etc., are not likely to have much relevance for someone who's IQ approaches the 200 range as opposed to the rest of us waiting for the next leap year to make our Brooklyn Bridge bids. >>The one I believe is applicable is >>that he worked on classified projects as he claimed and was >>verified by a number of researchers. Jim Courant, Paola Harris >>and Michael Hesseman all personally travelled to Connecticut to >>interview Michael Wolf, check his documents and overhead >>converstations he had with medical experts and acclaimed >>scientists. They were convinced he was legitimate. You never >>physically visited Michael Wolf to check his claims as Courant, >>Harris and Hesseman did. I believe their conclusions are more >>reliable than your own and I consider Michael Wolf to be a >>legitimate whistleblower. >Funny they couldn't provide copies of any diplomas or the other >missing info noted above. Don't forget I had many phone >conversations with Michael before they came on the scene. They were personally able to verify some of Wolf's documents when visiting him in his apartment. In a recent post on this forum by Maurizio Baiata, he claims to have taken photos of Wolf's credentials. It appears that Wolf kept some of his documents that were no longer in the public realm and showed them only to a few researchers. Since you did not visit Wolf, something that Michael apparently was very dissappointed about, you did not see the documents he possessed. I don't see any reason why we should dismiss the research findings of those who did physically interview Michael and check out his documents, just because you concluded from phone interviews that he was not credible. >>>Bob Lazar did take at least one class at Pierce Junior College >>>near LA under physics Prof. William Duxler. He claimed Duxler >>>taught Physics at Cal Tech. NOT TRUE... only at Pierce. No one >>>has provided any evidence that he has received any degrees from >>>anywhere. He did not work for Los Alamos. He worked for Kirk >>>Meyer. He received his high school diploma on Long Island in >>>August having taken one science course, chemistry. His >>>educational and professional claims are _nonsense_, not even an >>>advisor for his MS thesis. I have noted the many checks I have >>>done with many offices at MIT etc >>Here we go ahead with your document searches. Stan, I'm puzzled >>why you won't accept that the documentary records of those >>working on classified projects can and are regularly removed or >>tampered with as a condition of employment to guard against >>unauthorized disclosure of information. >Here you go again with a totally unsubstantiated claim. Are you >forgetting I had a Q and Secret clearance for 14 years? Sure >doesn't work well to keep down unauthorized disclosure from Wolf >and Lazar does it? Why do you claim that I'm making an unsubstantiated claim here? I'm using whistleblower testimonies that documents are changed, removed, etc., as a standard security procedure for deep black projects. That's very plausible and fits with what would be a reasonable deductive reasoning process for how operational security is maintained. Security clearances are standard for those working with sensitive information. Having held a Q and Secret clearance doesn't give you the inside scoop on classified projects that lie outside the specific areas you were cleared to work on while you were engaged in the corporate/government world. You would however be familiar with the penalties associated with unauthorized disclosure of classified information. In the case of those like Wolf and Lazar who do make unauthorized disclosures, it appears that discrediting is the main strategy used to deal with such individuals. >>Perhaps you have you not >>sufficiently thought through what has been set up by the >>government. That's surprising since you have researched both >>Roswell crash and some of the Majestic Documents (EBD and SOM) >>and find them credible. Don't you see the implications of your >>own research? If Roswell and the Majestic documents are >>credible, then a system is in place to systematic discredit and >>intimidate whistleblowers/witnesses and remove public records of >>employees to maintain secrecy. >This is total hogwash. I accept Roswell and MJ-12 (EBD,TF, CT) >because of all the specific and detailed evidence which I have >provided to back up my claims. I noted certain Tim Cooper >documents were fraudulent because I found the originals which >were emulated. Yes, Michael, documented evidence. I say Menzel >did work for the CIA and NSA, and lots of companies, because I >have copies of his letters to JFK, docs. re. his NSA employment, >statements in his unpublished autobiography, etc. I say Twining >was in NM July 7 - 11 because I managed to locate copies of his >flight log, his pilot's flight log, and a newspaper article >about his being at White Sands. I say TOP SECRET RESTRICTED was >in use during the Ike years because the GAO said they found >examples of it, etc. etc.. Your argument here is not persuasive. You claim my inference about a secret system that is in place that systematically removes and alters documents is hogwash. You then go on to outline your successful events to substantiate many questions in UFOlogy through succesful document searches. In what way does that preclude what I'm saying? I'm not saying ALL government documents are altered and removed, only those dealing with classififed documents concerning EBEs, ETVs, and the credentials of whistleblowers who worked in such projects. You are mistakenly assuming that documentation of sources is the means for unravelling the UFO enigma and you more than anyone else have been a pioneer in this effort. I'm saying that this is insufficient. We need to use undocumented sources such as whistleblower testimonies since the documentary trail can and does run dry when we get to classified projects on EBEs, ETVs, etc. I'm not saying what you have been doing is useless, you've opened up some cracks in the secrecy system that is in place. That is helpful and you are to be congratulated for that, but it's insufficient for the task of unravelling what is really happening in the classified world of secret ETV and EBE projects. I think documentation of sources and analysing undocumented sources of information such as whistleblowers are complementary and not mutually exclusive. >You say Wolf and Lazar must have been telling the truth because >there is no evidence because the government must have eliminated >it. Which approach makes more sense? You say Wolf and Lazar must be lying because there is no documentation or hard evidence that their documentation or hard evidence has been removed or altered. Your position doesn't make sense. I'm saying we need to go beyond documentation and hard evidence as the exclusive criteria upon which to base UFO research simply because many whistleblowers have sufficient integrity and credibility to warrant a thorough examination and analysis of their claims. If we don't go beyond documentation and hard evidence, UFOlogy will never walk through the doorway into the secret world of classified projects that focus on EBEs, ETVs, etc. >>That's the logical outcome of >>your own research and yet you refuse to accept this. >My logical outcome is to go with the facts and data and make >claims supported by them. You say since you believe the >government gets rid of evidence that the absence of evidence is >evidence these liars are telling the truth... how quaint. In your process of going with the facts and 'data' you dismiss as 'data' the testimonies of numerous well credentialled and credibile individuals who reveal information about classified projects involving EBEs and ETVs. Your research criteria need to be expanded and are presently insufficient to deal with ALL the data that is available. In the social sciences, you would be hounded out of a department for advocating the restrictive research criteria you are passing off as 'rigorous science'. I've seen what has happened to those who advocate such restrictive research methods in a number of social science departments, and it's not pretty too see how any social scientist wanting to emulate natural science methodologies will have a very tough time in many social science departments. Since UFOlogy has been dominated by those with natural science methodologies, e.g., Hynek, MacDonald, etc., then this problem has not be sufficiently addressed. I'm bringing it to the attention of the forum since I believe social science methodologies have a major role to play in UFO research. >>>Bob's physics claims are more double-talk. Yes, 4 atoms of >>>element 115 have been created in a period of a month at a huge >>>accelerator. The half life is too short for anybody to collect >>>500 pounds as Bob has alleged. I have noted many more, you should >>>pardon the expression, facts >>The scientists who produced the 4 atoms of element 115 said that >>in theory a stable isotope could be created using technology >>that doesn't presently exist on earth. That means that >>extraterrestrials with advanced technologies can produce stable >>isotopes of 115. Since Lazar claimed that the 500 pounds came >>from ET sources, then Lazar's testimony was validated. >Again we have a ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim. The term >stability is used by guys working on high atomic number elements >to mean half lives in the range of milliseconds. This is >comparatively stable because most such isotopes have half-lives >a thousand times shorter. Why do you claim that scientists speculating on the possibility of stable forms of 115 are making ridiculous claims? Here is what the scientists resposible for producing 115 say in response to a question from Linda Moulton Howe about the possibility of producing a stable form of 115: http://www.intalek.com/Index/News/Element115.htm "Could there be an element 115 isotope that is solid and can be held in the hand?" Some day down the road, I think so. If it's true that we find something that is long enough lived. To hold something in your hand, you would need a significant quantity of these atoms. We've produced four atoms of Element 115 in a month. It would take -- you don't have enough time in the rest of the universe to create enough that you could hold in your hand through these same kinds of production methods (that we are using). That's why I say a future technology might allow us advances in terms of how much can be produced and the target material, maybe a better way of producing -- but somewhere down the road, there might be a possibility, sure. So if the scientists producing the four elements of 115 believe it's possible to create a stable version of 115 that can be held in the hand, then you are clearly overreaching in your dismissal of such a possibility. This lends support to Lazar's claims of having handled a stable isotope of 115 that was produced by ETs. >>>Michael, I gather you will believe what you want to believe, but >>>you are certainly undermining the efforts of legitimate >>>Whistleblowers by promoting _nonsense_. Please provide any >>>evidence, soft, hard, or medium, that these _nonsensical_claims_ >>>are legitimate. >>In your view Stan, are there any legitimate whistleblowers >>discussing classified projects involving EBE's and/or ET >>technologies? >I like Salas' testimony (doesn't deal with EBE or ET Tech.) >but no, I know of none. Do you? Thanks for responding. Salas was a whistleblower for a UFO sighting. There are dozens of whistlelbowers who provide testimonies of having worked on classified projects involving EBEs and ETVs. In addition to those in Steven Greer's Disclosure Book, e.g., Bill Uhouse, Don Phillips, Clifford Stone, etc., there are whistlelbowers like Bob Lazar, Charles Hall, Steve Wilson, Dan Burisch, Phil Schneider, etc. Of these dozens of whistleblowers, I think its very revealing that you don't find one to be sufficiently credible or 'legitimate' - not one! It shows the methodological failure of asserting that only documentation and verifiable evidence are sufficent for legitimate UFO research. Your response is quite revealing and I hope readers take note of it, and why I contend conventional UFO research fails to adequately deal with whistleblower testimonies. >><snip> >>>Corso made a sworn statement to attorney Peter Gersten that he >>>had been a member of the NSC. He refused to withdraw it when >>>Peter showed him the letter from the Eisenhower Library. >>>Incidentally, many of the minutes and lists of attendees at a >>>host of NSC meetings are not any longer classified. Liaison >>>people like Corso were concerned with particular areas not all >>>NSC activities and did not even have a need to know for what >>>other people were concerned with..... >>What precisely did Corso say in the sworn statement to Gersten? >>I'd like to see it. Corso, as I showed in the quote I supplied, >>only ever said that he served on the staff of the National >>Security Council. He was not a member and did not claim to be. >>You are defending a red herring in insisting that Corso claimed >>to be a member of the NSC. He was on the staff of the NSC. These >>are very different job descriptions. >Ask Peter Gersten. You say, "many of the minutes and lists of attendees at a host of NSC meetings are not any longer classified." You are being evasive here. What you precisely mean by 'many'? What NSC meetings? What time period? Were these partial or complete lists of attendees? Did the lists included non-statutory members of the NSC. Also, Corso claimed that part of his NSC assignment involved working with MJ-12 as Kevin Randel atested in Corso's book proposal he has in his possession. This more strongly suggests that the meetings that Corso attended, if any, were and still are classified. So your failure to get confirmation from the Eisenhower library was very likely due to the information concerning Corso still being classified. You do not ask the right questions of the Eisenhower librarian due to your misplaced optimism in documentation being freely available to the general public. Perhaps I'm being a little provocative here and this caused you some irritation in the previous post, but I think that if you ask the Eishenhower library questions about the attendence of NSC meetings, you need to find out more about how many NSC meetings have been declassified, etc. <snip> >Michael, you didn't answer my question about whether you had >been to the Ike Library and what your basis for the claims you >make is. I looked at minutes of many NSC meetings which had been >declassified. Some were indeed censored even ones marked as TOP >SECRET EYES ONLY. But it was never the attendance which was >censored. I have copies here. I am not a 'true believer' in document searches in unravelling the UFO enigma, and I choose to currently focus my research efforts on investigating whistleblower testimonies by conducting interviews, colloborating with others researching whistleblower testimoniess, and focusing on 'soft evidence' such as the coherence of their claims, their integrity and cross referencing. Due to my skepticism of finding anything valuable, I am yet to visit the Eisenhower, Truman or any Presidential library. As for the source of my claims, as I've repeatedly said, I've found the testimonies of whistleblowers backed by the research of competent investigators to be persuasive. As far as NSC meetings are concerned, we need to clarify a few things. By statute, the NSC has in attendence a number of cabinet level officials. These include the President and Vice- President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, the NSC Advisor, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Director of Central Intelligence. Now these and a few others attend NSC meetings by statute. In addition, there are the heads of other executive departments and agencies, and other senior officials, who may be invited to attend meetings of the NSC when necessary. Now these are are all senior officials and not all of those who have a non-statutory presence will be present at all meetings. Lt Col Corso did not have the rank to attend NSC meetings unless he was invited for a specific purpose. So if Corso did attend NSC meetings, and that would not have been necessary for him to complete his duties as an NSC staffer, then it may at most have been a few meetings. So that means that even if you have in your possession 50% of NSC meetings and the full list of attendees during the Eisenhower administration, that would be insufficient. Only if you got the complete list would you be able to ascertain if Corso attended any NSC meetings. However, this is a red herring since Corso did not claim to have been present at NSC meetings, all he claimed was that he served on the staff to the NSC during the Eisenhower administration. Corso did not need to be present at NSC meetings to fulfill his mission. As a Lt-Col he would have been pretty low in the pecking order and would most likely have been fulfilling some liason role. Stan, why do you pursue this red herring and offer it as a major problem in determining Corso's credibility? >>Also, when did I say anything about Corso being an important cog >>in the NSC wheel? He was a Lt Col appointed as a staff member to >>the NSC comprising Cabinet level officials. He was no important >>cog. The important stuff happened when he was head of the Army's >>Foreign Technology Desk at the Pentagon. Why are you focusing on >>his NSC service when you have had no luck in finding >>documentation to satisfy your penchant for documentary >>verification of whistleblower testimonies? >Michael once again you ignore the facts. I have the 4 page legal >size two column roster of the group under Trudeau - from the >Army Archives at Carlisle, PA. There indeed was a Foreign >Technology group. It had two people in it. Corso was the junior >member. I had direct dealings with the USAF FTD at Wright >Patterson in the same time frame. They had dozens of employees - >many of them highly technical, unlike Corso. They had wreckage >in 1947. You are seemingly claiming that Corso, with no >scientific or engineering background, by himself, introduced all >those "new technologies" into US industry, but USAF FTD hadn't >done so, even though an important part of their job was working >with industry, in Operation Gold Eagle, and in projects such as >mine (at Aerojet General Nucleonics) "Analysis and Evaluation of >Fast and Intermediate Reactors for Space Vehicle Applications". >(Russian tech.) I'm glad you were able to find documentary evidence that Corso served in the Foreign Technology desk at the Pengagon. As for Corso being a 'junior member' or for him having headed for Foreign Technology Group for only 90 days rather than two years as Kevin Randle claims, we need to know the chain of command. Lt Col is sufficient rank to head a small department in the Pentagon even if he is technically subordinate to another officer, aside from Trudeau, who is responsible for a number of desks including Corso's. Corso's claim of heading a desk in the Foreign Technology may involve some semantic discussion of who was precisely in charge given the existence of a chain of command under which Corso's small department was located in a larger group. Despite the precise nature of Corso's position, it's clear he had the rank to head a desk and since he worked in the Foreign Technology group, then it's plausible he played the role he claimed. As for your questions over Corso playing the role he claimed in disseminating ET technologies into private industry, that's the crux of the issue here and I'm glad we've gotten around to that. I don't claim to have sufficient technical competence to analyse Corso's claims here, but I believe they are worthy of serious study given his verified position at the Foreign Technology desk and his claims concerning ET technology. >>>I am glad to see you have done some homework on the NSC. I have >>>no idea where your claims about what is, or isn't, classified and >>>about Corso originate. Have you actually been to the Ike Library >>>and had dealings with their archivists? Or are you making your >>>comments up as you go along. >>The attendence at NSC meetings is classified information. That >>is well known among foreign policy professionals and I'm >>surprised you weren't aware of this. >So why are so many lists of NSC meeting attendees unclassified? >This is 2005 in case you hadn't noticed it. As I noted in my earliery clarification, the attendence of NSC meetings involves both statutory and non-statutory attendees. The list of non-statutory attendees would reveal the agenda of the NSC meeting. That would be deemed to be a threat to national security and thus makes the attendence of NSC meetings subject to classification. So yes, we know which statutory officials attend NSC meeting in 2005, but the non-statutory officials is classified until some indeterminate future time . <snip> >We are talking about events and meetings prior to 1962. >Please answer my questions: >1. Have you ever had a security clearance? >2. Have you ever been to the Eisenhower or Truman Libraries? It's normal to assume that events and meetings prior to 1962 are more likely to move through the declassification process and be available to researchers such as yourself who frequent archives and Presidential libraries. However, as we are all aware, events and meetings concerning EBEs, ETVs, etc., such the Roswell crash and MJ-12 meetings in 1947, vividly demonstrate how these matters are still subject to classification regardless of the declassification process put in place my Presidents such as Clinton. So regardless of the frequency of visits of archives and Presidential libraries, there will be no success in accessing these classified documents. As for your questions, I've already answer your second question and in response to the first, I have never required a security clearance in any of my academic appointments in Australia or the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 The Great British UFO Show Update From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:44:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:56:55 -0400 Subject: The Great British UFO Show Update Dear all We have updated our conference flyer to include payment and booking information for the event. Please see web site details below. We are also pleased to announce that over the next few weeks we will be launching 'TALK UFO' on Live 365 the worlds largest internet radio broadcaster. There are test transmissions on the net at the moment and we will inform you once the station is broadcasting live and recorded programmes. http://www.ufodata.co.uk/10006.htm The above link will put you on the correct page to join the transmissions, you may need to download the free software to receive our programmes but you will have the choice of thousands of different channels to choose from... Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:55:50 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:01:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? - Ledger >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:45 -0400 >Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:54:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:04 -0400 >>>Subject: Radar UFOs Over DC Area? >><snip> >>>- from January 2003 to July 2004 more than 2,000 radar "tracks of >>>interest" were detected over Washington airspace leading to 350 >>>scrambles of customs aircraft based at Reagan National Airport, >>>according to the Department of Homeland Security." >><snip> >>>However the most ufologicially interesting example is this: >>>"April 27, 2005: President Bush is taken to a White House bunker >>>and Vice President Cheney is evacuated from the executive >>>complex when an unidentified radar target approaches to within >>>seven miles of Reagan National Airport. Authorities conclude >>>that the radar blip was caused by clouds or a weather anomaly." >>>Would be interesting to know the actual technical data on this >>>"radar blip": duration, distance traveled, speed, direction, >>>date, time, etc. The way it first was detected and the manner in >>>which it was last detected and the strength. All of these >>>together would provide sufficient information to estimate >>>whether or not the "cloud or weather anomaly" made any sense. >>>For example, if it moved at more than 100 mph, like a small >>>plane, it wouldn't be a cloud. >>Considering the amount of commercial, private, military and >>police air traffic in and around Washington, D.C. and the very >>close proximity of Reagan "International" Airport (Air Canada >>has landing rights there) to the White House and the Pentagon, I >>am not surprised with the large number of "tracks of interest" >>during this 1 1/2 year period. ><snip> >>I too would be interested in seeing the technical radar data >>and knowing the weather conditions that produced the false(?) >>alarm of an unidentified aircraft flying towards the White >>House. Even at more than 100 mph, the blips could still be due >>to clouds or weather conditions in very much the same way police >>radar can pick up speeding phantom cars on tree lined highways >>on days with light winds. Although the tree branches would not >>be moving back and forth very fast, the radar may first detect >>the branches of very distant trees over the highway with the >>first radar echo. This would be followed by the detection of >>branches from less distant trees with the next radar echo and >>then the branches of much more closer tree branches with the >>next radar echo, and so on. The rapidly decreasing times for the >>consecutive radar echos could create the false impression of a >>real vehicle moving 100 mpg or more towards them, for example. >One could speculate on atmospheric conditions that could affect >the radar until the cows come home. Radar might even detect the >cows coming home. >However, without the actual data there is no point in carrying >out an analysis based on the weather. One would think, because >that target was mentioned as something "special" that it would >have had some non-atmospheric characteristics. >In other words, a large blobby image seeming to move probably >wouldn't attract attention. But a point target on a linear >trajectory would. I don't know, but I speculate that the >surveillance system would include "raw" radar and perhaps >height-finding radar as well as transponder "radar". >If there were a point target moving at considerable speed but >not transponding... alarm bells would go off (such as happened >when the small plane approached a month ago). >The small plane that nearly got shot down was first detected >about 50 miles out, as I recall, and didn't respond to >interrogation until it was almost too late! Actually the C-150 incursion into restricted airspace was only 6 days ago on May 12, Bruce. It was a student pilot with an instructor onboard who should lose his instructor rating-at least. When in training the instructor [onboard] is always the Pilot in Command. Loss of radio is no excuse, not in that area. Re the "cloud" target. It would have to have been one concentrated cloud moving pointedly across the sky at a speed, against the prevailing winds, not comfortable to the computer that predicted it for the ATCs consuls. What the controllers see aren't primary radar but computer generated screen tracks and transponder codes from primary radar data and computer programs. They also show "unknowns" as an ignorable inverted "Y" which are usually assumed to be trucks on the freeway or boats on lakes or rivers for example moving too slow to be aircraft. Regular returns from watertowers and large buildings etc. are permenantly marked on their screens. Frankly, the cloud explanation is very weak if not outright nonsense. My guess is they had something, perhaps another aircraft, probably a composite construction giving an intermittent return and that they couldn't find visually and had to use the cloud explanation to save face. The public wouldn't know any different. Cloud is of course seen by radar but as a noise return on the primary screens spread a considerable distance across a particular quadrant or two, not a tight little target moving purposefully across the sky. A little cloud isn't going to show
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:28:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:10:41 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video <snip> >When I joined this List a couple months back, I did so with the >intent of soliciting scientific help in the form of instruments >and expertise. This problem or need has since been satisfied, >perhaps not quickly enough however, as they were not in place >for this event. We did have a Cannon XL1 rolling as well as a >35mm Camera taking 30 sec. exposures at the time, but they were >focused elsewhere. >This sighting is a good example of what I consider "missed >opportunity". While in this instance I happened to take Jeff and >another gentleman to this site, it could just as easily been a >team of researchers with the instruments and expertise to obtain >much more valuable data then a single video clip. In fact, about >65 minutes after the video was shot, a closer more interesting >light was observed, but we had just packed up our equipment. You can learn from the experience of the Gulf Breeze Research Team, in the time period 1990 - 1992 when "Bubba" was appearing in the skies over Gulf Breeze and, occasionally, Pensacola. They went out almost every night for two years with several people having video cameras, still cameras, binoculars and chairs and tables, etc. They would start watching about an hour after sunset and then continue for several hours before packing it in. They got into a routine which probably would be considered "odd" but nevertheless effective. They became good friends and, more important from the UFO data perspective, they became trained observers. They had so many sightings that they became skilled in obtaining visual and photographic/video data. They often split into smaller teams separated by some distance, occasionally with radio communication, so that they could get good triangulation. Clearly this was a classic labour of love, but they were richly rewarded for their efforts: over 170 sightings in a two year period. Only a few sightings involved less than 4 people. One sighting involved over a hundred witnesses. Beside hours of videotape they also got the world's first(?) infrared photos and a diffraction grating - spectrum - photo. I was a witness during one of their sightings. A ring of lights, like a chandelier, appeared in the sky. This is described on my web site: http://brumac.8k.com scroll down to the Gulf Breeze sightings. Most of their sightings occurred between sunset and midnight. Occasionally they would stay up until 3 a.m. Hit-or- miss skywatches may luck out. But the persistence of a continual skywatch is likely to provide more payoff.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:57:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:18:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >The recent UFO fleet over Mexico city videotaped by Arturo >Robles Gil on April 11, 2005 convinced skywatcher Larry >"lawwalk" from Kaufman, Texas to come forward and tell about his >sighting and present his evidence, videotaped on the afternoon of >May 3, 2004 in Kaufman County, Texas. >In a message to BJ Booth of UFO Casebook Larry "lawwalk" >mentioned having seen the April 11 Mexican UFO fleet footage and >decided to tell his story. According to the article published in >the UFO Casebook webpage Larry was confused and disconcerted by >the unusual sighting he experimented that afternoon of May 2004 >due to the numerous objects flying in formation at a clear day. >Larry confessed that he thought these was a formation of rare >birds of some kind but being unsure of what he got on tape >decided to keep it secret with him until he found the mexican >footage. >The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, >We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's >characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent >with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement >in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 >footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. >This is a confirmation that the UFO flotillas is a global >phenomena and more reports are coming from other countries. >Thanks to Larry and BJ Booth for releasing this information and >provide the evidences. >http://www.ufocasebook.com/kaufmanbirdufo.html Hola Santiago, hello All, It's not just Larry.... Several individuals (myself included,) have been recording and reporting these 'white spheres/discs' since the mid-nineties. I have mentioned Tom King, Bill Hamilton and several others, who used to record and exchange video of these objects from vantage points scattered clear across the continent. I was capturing their activity in the daytime skies over New York City. Tom King, Bill Hamilton and others were recording the _exact_ same objects, which were behaving the exact same way, in terms of movements in the sky, in the day-time skies over Phoenix, Arizona. Mind you, all of it is _identical_ to the video that has been coming out of Mexico since the first public mass sightings that occurred during the solar eclipse in 92'. (92? Not sure year, sorry.) Together, collectively, we have recorded _hours_ of video of these objects. If you go to this link: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/triangleformation.html I have posted a single-frame-capture from a video I recorded in Aug, 1998. They put on a 'sky show' that day! I captured them on video. As you can see, they are in the recently recognized triangular formation. These three white discs remained in that formation without moving for several minutes. Actually, they do move! There is a very slight side-to-side jittering motion that the OVNIs make while hovering. Like the side-to-side fluttering of a falling leaf! This movement is visible in my videos, Tom King's videos and now I find it in the Mexican Fleet videos too! I've seen these things close-up. They ain't "balloons"! I have posted to this List in the past about how basic forms/shapes, such as triangles, and in particular the number three, keep coming up and how they seem to have some meaning or significance that none of us has even considered. The falling leaf movement is another curious detail. It is important to start compiling all these observation details in the hope of eventually accumulating enough of them to make some sense of all of this. Myself and two associates have been pouring over the Fleet footage all week. I will post my review/report to the List tomorrow. Clips from the video will be posted to the Virtually Strange Website shortly. I will make an announcement when they are ready. The clips that will be posted at VSN will not conflict or duplicate any of the clips that are posted at A.J. Gevaerd's Brazilian UFO website. I will have a link to A.J.'s site posted prominently on the page and I encourage all visitors
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:28:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:20:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Maccabee >From: Walt Williams <walt_williams.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:38:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:46:32 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? ><snip> >>Also as most UFOs are said to have high-speed spinning areas >>and the spinning part could easily generate electricity, the >>battery would not even be required. >A buddy up at JPL pointed out to me one day while he and I were >reviewing some video of an apparently rotating disc, which was >hovering near some buildings in Mexico City, that the observed >spinning may be used to spin-stabilize the object while in >motion. This probably refers to the August, 1997 UFO video by an anonymous witness. Said video was examined carefully and found to contain evidence of a hoax.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:54:01 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:21:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video <snip> >Larry confessed that he thought these was a formation of rare >birds of some kind but being unsure of what he got on tape >decided to keep it secret with him until he found the mexican >footage. >The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, >We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's >characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent >with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement >in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 >footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. >This is a confirmation that the UFO flotillas is a global >phenomena and more reports are coming from other countries. >Thanks to Larry and BJ Booth for releasing this information and >provide the evidences. >http://www.ufocasebook.com/kaufmanbirdufo.html Hi Santiago! Since after studying the Kaufman, Texas UFO video you came to the conclusion that its "characteristics and parameters" were consistent with the behaviour, movement and perfect synchronized formation found in the Mexican UFO videos, you may have actually confirmed that the correct explanation for these UFOs are birds - just as Larry thought until he saw the very similar Mexican UFO footage. Although the objects in the sky and the leaves on the tree in the Kaufman video are not in focus are are not clearly defined, the behaviour of the objects are not inconsistent with a high flying flock of birds such as seagulls. Since there are several large lakes around Kaufman, the identity of these objects as seagulls is not an unreasonable one. The movement of the objects in the sky are also random and consistent to that of birds, such as seagulls which, unlike Canadian geese, do not normally fly in formation. As for me, I did not see anything in the Kaufman video clip that supports what you say is motion "in perfect synchronized formation" as one would expect for a fleet of UFOs (or Canadian geese) flying overhead. The observation that convinces me that these objects in the sky cannot be symmetrical "nuts and bolts" manufactured craft or UFOs is that, even though they are little more than out-of-focus white spots, the spots do change shape and in brightness in a random manner that further suggests Larry's first guess that they were birds is the correct one. Since such high flying flocks of birds are not unique to Mexico or Texas, I will agree with you that this is indeed a global phenomena. I recall one nice summer day in the late 1980s while laying flat on a lawn chair in my backyard in suburban Toronto reading Leonard Stringfield's 'UFO Crash/Retrieval' monograph I noticed many white dots manouvering high in the clear blue sky above me. Although I could not resolve these white dots as birds, since it had rained earlier, I concluded that they must be seagulls that moved inland from nearby Lake Ontario in search of food. I did momentarily entertain the idea that this flock of birds was actually a fleet of UFOs that for some reason happened to congregate over my part of town and it did not take much imagination in my part to believe this. If white spots were indeed higher flying larger UFOs instead of birds, I was sure they would have been noticed and reported by many others living in this large metropolitan area (although no where near as large as Mexico City for example). Apparently no one else must of been thinking of high flying UFOs like me that nice summer day because no one bothered to make an official report so I concluded that the white spots were just birds obervable only over my immediate neighbourhood. Thank you again Santiago for sending me the video cassette of the Mexican UFO fleet footage which I am anxiously looking forward to see and have others view too, some of whom are photo analysts and thus better qualified to evaluate such videos than me. Each video that is suspected to depict UFOs flying in formation must be studied independently and we should not allow our biases or opinions, pro or con, to make pre-judgments
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:11:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:23:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - White >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? <snip> >>http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/12/ufo/ <snip> >The real analysis shows something less than an alien spacecraft. >I agree with the work of the fewllow at the below links. >http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ >This link shows the realtive position of each sphere on the >image. A nice rectalinear layout. >http://www.flickr.com/photos/48556057.nul/13647471/ >So the assessment that it is likely registration dots to >match/patch images from different sources makes sense. >The question is raised as to whether the images is actually a >satellite images at all. I agree. If you look at Terraserver >you will see that the images with the most detail are aircraft >flyover images (usually over urban areas). When I look at the link above, I see little dark, white-outlined circles with some sort of green object across them. Not at all like the google maps "satellite" image. My remarks presumed it was a satellite image, of course. Which may not be true. However, the original image at the original link doesn't look like any "registration marks" I've ever seen, but then I'm not an aerial photo expert. Still, the original image is a very strange way to make registration marks, and I doubt it was. Also - the original image is of a very high density residential development. In the flickr.com image, I don't see any cultural features even close to that. While I'm not an aerial photo expert, I have done some flying so I know reasonably well what looks like what from low to medium altitude.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:25:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:24:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - White >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:51:20 +0200 >Subject: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET <snip> >Well, I am a little upset about all those experiments that never >got published... usually because the results did not fulfill the >expectations. Can anybody update these or other examples? A few months ago, I emailed CUFOS, the organization doing the electronic monitoring, to ask them how that project was going.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:11:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:27:21 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:04:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:26:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:43:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>>Giant UFO sightings that fall through and get shown to be >>>nothing more than prosaic phenomena give ufology a black >>>eye. The longer they fester the more a laughing stock >>>ufology becomes. Lets try to prevent that. >>The Apollo 16 film didn't really fall through the cracks; >>several messages were posted about it on this List quite some >>... >I was referring to Campeche and UFO balloon fleets. I appreciate >being able to post the Apollo analysis here. >>If you really want to put your findings in the permanent record, >>I'd suggest that you submit a paper to the Journal of Scientific >>Exploration. It published a paper previously arguing that the >>object was a large spacecraft, so I think the editors would feel >>obligated to publish your counter argument, which seems >>conclusive to me. >I sort of can see your point, but is this journal truly a peer >review? If they can publish the orginal "analysis" of the Apollo >UFO, then this implies a low level of merit required for >inclusion. Anyway, that journal is more interested in verifying >phenomena than showing such phenomena is not real. Also, if the >magazines were easier for the public to get their hands on, then >it may be worthwhile. The Internet seems the best was to >disseminate both real UFO case analyses and hype UFO videos and >stories. It would be nice to have a site like Science Frontiers >that keeps track of these anomalie updates. We still have the >standard magazines to try to get an article in (pro and con UFO >oriented, too bad there is no balanced magazine, at least as >viewed by the community). JSE doesn't restrict itself to "pro-anomaly" papers. It published a rebuttal by JPL scientists to a paper by Mark Carlotto about Cydonia. >>As for Oberg (belatedly) picking up the story, this is >>the only kind of UFO article that he and his corporate >>employers will publish for mass consumption: "Big >>UFO Case Debunked." >What gives better ratings: debunked UFO story or non-debunked >UFO story? I think you know the answer. Aren't the >publishers/media more interested in readership and vast piles of >cash and pushing a left wing agenda and political power? There is a near-total lack of coverage of interesting UFO cases and coverage of good UFO investigators. If "non-debunked" UFO stories are good for ratings, then obviously ratings for for such stories are not the prime motivation in deciding what to print and what not to print. I assume you're kidding about the left wing agenda. The corporate news media that seldom gives serious coverage to any non-debunking UFO story is the same corporate news media that touted the Bush administration's "evidence" for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, which turned out not to exist. If the news media have a left-wing agenda, they hide it very well. >I have not seen an analysis of all news stories that justifies >this conclusion. They give even the folk who swim with dolphins >to better communicate with ET some (albeit little) coverage. I have seen very few major news media stories that cover anything _but_ the antics of the eccentrics attracted to the subject of UFOs or stories intended to portray serious researchers as eccentrics. The Peter Jennings program was a rare exception to that (the first half, at least). >True, the UFO believers and abductees are not treated favorably >or fairly. But this is part of the media game. They know this is >what the public wants to hear (i.e. making fun of some small >group not approved of by the majority). Actually, it seems that >the UFO believers are being treated a little more favorably in >recent years. >>The art of propaganda isn't about telling lies; it's about telling >>half- truths, and Oberg is a master of that art. >I haven't seen this to be the case. He has alot of experience in >relevent areas. His focus is on space and this expertise cannot >be lightly dismissed. He may be wrong sometimes, we all are. But >he seems more right than wrong. It's more what he leaves out than what he says that's wrong. But
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:53:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:30:45 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:23:58 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:10:28 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> Hello Nick, List, You wrote earlier in this thread at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m12-004.shtml "I make no accusation of plagiarism, because all material on my website may be freely used, for non-commercial purposes, provided the source is quoted and it's not taken out of context." I note that you wrote in relation to an earlier version of the article at TNA which you addressed at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/dec/m08-007.shtml "The National Archives research notes on UFOs were adapted from an article that Georgina Bruni and I wrote, documenting the British Government's handling of the UFO issue up until the Fifties." I am slightly puzzled by the different reactions by you to each of these. In response to the earlier article, you don't appear to have contacted TNA about proper crediting of the article, yet on the latest occasion, you seem to have gone to some lengths, causing at least two re-writes of the article. Perhaps you would care to explain the different reactions? I also see that the latest version at: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 has not only removed any reference to Georgina having worked for the MoD, but also any reference to you having done so. Do you know why that is? <snip> >>I didn't spot the "odd discrepancies" which you referred to >>above, have they now been corrected as well? >No. My point was simply that by taking only some of the material >from the Official History article, the picture painted of the >Ministry of Defence's early involvement with the UFO mystery was >incomplete. The full Official History article can be accessed at >the following hyperlink, though it is also widely available on >various UFO-related websites: >http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm On the topic of incomplete or distorted history, perhaps you would care to clear up a few more apparent inconsistencies. In respect to the Flying Saucer Working Party at the site referred to above, you describe a series of clues which led researchers to request the document from the MoD. The implication is that this is how you and Georgina discovered the existence of the document, quite independently of the work carried out By Andy Roberts and Dave Clarke. This appears to conflict with your comments in which an article attributed to you states at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jan/m03-019.shtml "Hard on the heels of Georgina Bruni's scoop concerning the release of MOD documents on the Rendlesham Forest incident, two enterprising members of the public have stumbled upon 'DSI/JTIC Report No. 7'." This implies that neither you nor Georgina were aware of the existence of the document until "two enterprising members of the public" (presumably Roberts and Clarke) disclosed it. In response to the following specific and direct question from me to Georgina Bruni: "What specifically led you/Nick to request the files relating to report No. 7 from the PRO, and when was that?" Georgina replied at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/apr/m14-005.shtml "For some years now I have been working with former Chief of the Defence Staff Lord Hill-Norton in attempts to secure UFO related material from the British Government. Acquisition of Report No 7 and Top Secret DSI/JTIC minutes are part of a much wider research process. Suffice to say, I have also been researching non-UFO material relating to the Cold War. The secret documents were obtained last year from the MOD and the top secret documents were obtained early this year as a result of requesting file numbers from the MOD." Note the absence of any specific reference to the trail that you describe in your article, and the absence of any specific date that the request was made for the document by you or Georgina. Please can you elaborate on exactly how and when you became aware of the FSWP document and the date that you requested a copy of it? I further note that you have pointedly avoided mentioning the work of Clarke and Roberts by name in respect to the discovery of the document. Are you willing to correct that situation now? Continuing the theme of historical accuracy, there are a number of other apparent inconsistencies in your account of your role at Secretariat (Air Staff)2a. On your home page at: http://www.nickpope.net/index.html the introduction reads: "Welcome to the official website for Nick Pope, the Ministry of Defence official who was responsible for researching and investigating UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles, cattle mutilations and other strange phenomena.." The implication is that in the course of your official capacity as the incumbent of the MoD "UFO desk", you carried out investigations into alien abductions, crop circles and cattle mutilations in addition to the "Defence implications of UFO reports". This implication is further supported by articles attributed to you at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jul/m28-011.shtml where you wrote "I've worked for the MOD for over fourteen years now, and three of those were spent researching and investigating UFO sightings, alien abductions, crop circles, animal mutilations and any other weird and wonderful reports that came my way." and: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/mi6/nick-pope.html <Gandalf1> what do you know about abductions... have you come across any abduction cases while working at the MoD and if yes was the government involved... if no what was the reason of documenting or keeping track of abductions? <Nick_Pope> I did get some abduction cases whilst at the MOD. I wrote about these, and other cases I've investigated privately in my book "The Uninvited", which comes out in paperback next week. I think it's for real. NP" Yet in Chapter 8 of your book "The Uninvited", you wrote: "When, during my official duties, I was first asked about alien abductions, I was surprised to find that the Ministry of Defence had no official policy on the alien abduction phenomenon. Technically, this meant that any research or investigation was outside my remit. But such a 'not in my job description' mentality has never been the way in which I operate, and it was simply not an option when abductees contacted me, often in a distressed state." You go on to write "My primary aim within the limited resources available to me was not so much to investigate the cases, but rather to help the abductees come to terms with their experiences." and later you wrote "..the Ministry was never going to officially sanction research into alien abduction..." Furthermore, at appendix 2, you reproduce a letter from Secretariat (Air Staff)2a dated 6th September 1996 (just 2 years after your vacation of the post), stating that "Abduction is a criminal offence and as such is a matter for the civil police." Additionally, in response to an enquiry from me about MoD policy on the abduction phenomenon, I received a response from AS(sec)4a (which succeeded (Air Staff)2a as the UFO desk) stating: "I should add that to date the MoD knows of no evidence which substantiates the existence of these alleged phenomena, and therefore the matter of abduction by alien lifeforms is a non- issue as far as the MoD is concerned. Abduction/kidnap in the general sense is, of course a criminal offence and as such would be a matter for the civil police." Moving on to crop circles, at: http://www.nickpope.net/crop_circles.htm you wrote "The military and MOD's first involvement with the crop circle mystery was in 1985." This is also mentioned in your book "Open Skies, Closed Minds" in chapter 5. Since you left the "UFO Desk" in 1994, you could not have been involved in any official investigation of crop circles, it would seem. As for animal mutilations, you wrote in chapter 6 of "Open Skies, Closed Minds": "In my official capacity I had no remit to investigate mutilations at all. The link between ufology and mutilations is obscure, and little discussed outside the States.Consequently I received no mutilation reports from the public during my three years as UFO officer, and nor would I have expected to." In summary, you have effectively said that no investigation by you of alien abductions, crop circles, or animal mutilations was conducted in your official capacity, yet you have implied elsewhere that you did do so. Please can you resolve the ambiguities? Finally, I have noticed frequent mentions by you of the MoD "UFO project", often coupled with direct comparisons to the USA's "Project Blue Book". The use of the term "UFO project" and the comparison with Blue Book would seem to be very misleading. From professional experience, a "project" normally has a very fixed and clearly-defined scope, and a predetermined lifespan. It also usually has a title, eg "Blue Book" or "Hessdahlen". Routine fulfillment of an ongoing role is not normally referred to as a "project". The use of the term "project" conveys far more significance to the role than exists in reality, and suggests a transient nature. My understanding, based on extensive reading of MoD documents at TNA, correspondence with AS(sec)4a and DAS (the successors of Secretariat (Air Staff)2a) is that following up UFO reports was only a part of the role which you carried out. The UFO aspect comprised mainly of writing innocuous responses to members of the public, crafting carefully-worded replies to politicians and the media, and anything that required serious investigation was handed off to other departments. This last point is supported by a document dated 27th May 1976 uncovered by David Clarke at TNA which clearly states: "5. Since investigations into the defence implications of alleged UFO sightings might involve highly classified material it was agreed that S4(Air) has no "need to know" about the enquiries made by any specialist branch in the course of an investigation. It followed that detailed reports on such investigations could not be included in the S4 files which would ultimately be disclosed when UFO reports were opened to the public." Copies of this document can be viewed temporarily at the following links for research purposes: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%201.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%202.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%203.jpg I would ask you how many times (in an official capacity) you carried out UFO-related field visits? How many UFO witnesses were personally interviewed by you? How much time in the role did you spend away from your desk as a percentage would you estimate? In comparison, Blue Book had far more time and resources, even to the extent of the use of Air Force jets in the course of following up reports. In comparison, your department couldn't even muster a staff car at one point, according to documents at TNA. I realise that some, if not all, of these questions have been asked in the past, but the answers have always been very ambiguous. In the interests of historical accuracy, would you care to address these points in an unambiguous way rather than (deliberately or subconsciously) use the evasive language which you have cultivated in your MoD role and in accordance with your MoD media training?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: Michael Salla - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:42:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Goldstein >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>Subject: Michael Salla >>Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, and fellow Listerions, >>I appreciate the admirable efforts that have been made to >>educate Michael Salla with facts. Unfortunately, as I said in my >>last post, he listens but does not hear or understand. >It's an interesting discussion. Mr. Salla is probably only >exhibiting a lack of UFO history knowledge and a feel for the >subject. He says he was never interested before encountering the >Greer Disclosure Press Club Conference in 2001. A lot of us have >been following this since we were kids in the 50s, and at peak >moments of attention ever since. Reading Keyhoe, the Lorenzens, >John Fuller, etc. as a teenager in the mid 60s meant we had an >exposure to phoney contactee tales and phoney whistleblower >tales (remember Aztec and the two con men who were "sources" for >that tale)? >(I say "we"... but, I don't know how old you are, Josh.) >This social scientific approach is interesting. In fact, it's >what _I've_ been using when dismissing the obvious phoney >balonies amongst the whistleblowers. (BTW, have you all been >following the Burisch saga? Now he has surrendered his MJ-12 >position and a European has replaced him.) Mike, I am 58 years old. I also first became interested in UFOs in the 1950s due to my love of aviation and the UFO movies at that time. I started reading UFO books. I was curious about the contactees and why each one had his own story. My father was a psychiatrist and he pointed out that each one had no real evidence other than his own tale. He even took me out to a contactee gathering at Giant Rock Airport in southern California. I was a kid so he tried to explain to me in simple terms the motivations for people to invent stories and why some people telling them would actually believe the tales they were telling. He also explained why some people have the emotional needs to believe almost anything. I kept reading books, followed the field, and kept up on the latest from APRO and NICAP. For various reasons my interest at the time was not strong enough to join either group or go to meetings. In 1975 I read the front page of the Washington Post which had the story _reported by the Air Force_ of the UFO sightings at USAF bases on the US-Canadian border from Maine to Montana. It was the strongest UFO evidence I had seen to date. That convinced me to get more serious and I went to meetings, later joining MUFON. I decided to take a nuts and bolts attitude to try to get access to proven hard evidence. This field has always been plagued by people telling wild stories and naive people willing to believe everything they are told without any confirmed hard evidence. That is one of the main reasons I left MUFON several years ago. You mentioned Burisch above. He has been proven to be a fraud by Royce Myers at UFO Watchdog. Royce has also nailed the lies of a number of other claimants. George Knapp from KLAS TV in Las Vegas has also declared Burisch to be a phony. You and Salla should also look up the UFO UpDates Archive from when Corso's book came out. Oddly, Peregrine Communications, the publishing arm of Collins and Doty, still supports Burisch. I read Greg Bishop's book Project Beta. It gives a good account of the Bennewitz saga. I have not read the Collins and Doty book. I would not trust anything in that book to be truth. Even if supposedly there is a bit of truth mixed in with disinformation how would anyone know which is which? Remember the tales of the aviary in that crappy UFO Coverup Live video? Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, and others have repeatedly pointed out what is factually wrong with some of the alleged "whistleblowers" yet Salla takes none of that to heart and just keeps circling in his pointless circular arguments. My point here is that in the UFO field all kinds of people come out with stories. Even if you could prove any of these people were in positions where they really would have access to the evidence you have no way of knowing if they are telling truth or disinformation. Stories are just stories. When I was a kid there was a show named Naked City, a detective show based in New York City. It began with the expression "there are 8 million stories in the naked city". Well there are 10 million stories in the UFO city. Stories mean nothing but tales unless there is real evidence gathered and proven to be legitimate from other sources than the tale teller. In the University I first received a psychology degree. That is a social science. I had basic training in the scientific method but I certainly do not consider myself an expert in those areas. Later I graduated at the top of the class in the regular and advanced curriculum of the West Coast Detective Academy in North Hollywood. That showed I had strong natural instincts in being able to evaluate claims, quality of evidence, and what is required to come to conclusions and to be able to prove a police case. I think that is the best methoology to sift the wheat from the chaff. One does always call in experts in various fields when required. I am no expert in ufology but unless the nuts and bolts study can provide evidence that can be evaluated using the standards of quality of evidence as practiced by detectives, professional investigators and attorneys, you just have the soup of stories and sightings. Stephen Greer rustled up a bunch of ex-military whistleblowers for his Disclosure Project but he unfortunately did not vet those who had dubious tales from those who had strong backgrounds and who perhaps could lead the way toward some evidence to confirm their stories. He also diverged into free energy. He was asking for a congressional investigation but his sloppiness as mentioned above led to nowhere. You should educate yourself by looking at the UFO Updates archives of that period. Mr. Salla says he studies the "whistleblowers" from the perspective of social science. Yet he seems totally unwilling or uncapable of beginning to separate truth from fiction, even at the basic level of whether any of those people are who they are claiming to be. >>I am feeling a better strategy at this point would be not to >>waste any more efforts at pouring sense into a black hole. I >>feel at this point it may be best to just ignore him and move on >>in our endeavors. We are providing him an audience on this list >>for his absurdity. I can't tell anyone what to do or not to do >>but it is obvious that the lack of meaningful dialogue is >>leading nowhere. >I don't know, I've sure learned a lot of interesting information >from reading Stanton Friedman's responses to Michael. And, the >dialogue is interesting in fleshing out social scientific >issues, like cultic and closed systems or cognitive dissonance >experienced by people in group efforts like the ufo field. (It's >the gullible and non discriminating folks who suffer cognitive >dissonance.) The social sciences can be an useful tool in >ufology. Indeed, I recommend highly (to the distress of many >luminaries here, I'm sure) "Shockingly Close to the Truth!" by >James Moseley and Karl Pflock for an incredibly educational and >sociological exam of ufology spanning a few decades. >That book helps with perspective (mind you, you can't take >anything Moselely says all that seriously..... Look at how he >trashes Richard Hall and how his co author doesn't). I don't get >the feeling that Michael has a real feel for the whole history >as yet, being fresh to the subject like he reports himself >being. Mike, Moseley has his own perspective and his own sense of humor. I have known Dick Hall for a number of years and I have always held Mr. Hall's research in the highest regard. I think Moseley was being disrespectful towards him because Dick is not his fan. Another reason I like Dick Hall is because he has a very good perspective of what is wrong with ufology. We have had talks where we very much agree on those points. I am glad you learned a lot from what Stan Friedman and Kevin Randle pointed out to Mr. Salla. However if you are serious about ufology you should have already known the phoniness of the "whistleblowers" mentioned. >>Dr. Salla, I don't like to refer to you in the third person but >>you are very removed from the more serious UFO investigators and >>we are getting nowhere. Entertain the people on your website who >>must be titillated by your line of thought. As my dad once >>stated, "It does not require tits for unthinking people to be >>seduced by titillation". >Josh, he probably is _going_ to be a serious investigator. He's >only been around for a little while. Since he's clearly an >articulate and gentlemanly communicator, no one is going to boot >him out. I am not saying to boot him out. I am saying to ignore him because he just makes his own phony arguments against the facts that some of the strongest UFO researchers present to him. He just persists in pointless prose that just circles around and does not land. It seems a waste of good work to try to point out anything to Mr. Salla. His list of questions to ask or not ask was ridiculous. For confirmation I let the famous "whistleblower" Homer Simpson read them and all he could say was "Doh!". I say firmly that Mr. Salla will not be a serious investigator because he really knows nothing and refuses to even begin to learn what real investigation entails. He is just a sponge who absorbs everything he wants to believe without qualifying any of it. In terms of real investigation he is not yet even a Barney Fife. Sure, he seems like a polite, nice guy but he is incapable of really hearing. >I wonder if characters like Burisch and the late M. W. Kruvant >would have even been addressed here at all, even though they >seem to have a fairly widespread cult like following "out >there". It's good that good information has been exposed >concerning Michael Wolf, for example. Until Mr. Salla mentioned the above they were not mentioned on UFO Updates for some time. They were mentioned, discussed, and dismissed on here a long time ago. I joined this list in its earliest days and a great deal has taken place. It would behoove anyone reading this, especially people who have not been on here for very long, to peruse the archives. They will provide you with a lot of answers that will advance your knowledge of this field.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:12:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:48:19 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Fleming >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:04:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:26:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases <snip> James Smith's comments seemed to suggest that the news media would find UFO stories irresistable because of the surefire ratings they would get (further implying that they don't cover UFO stories because there's nothing to cover). Not to get too deeply into non-UFO politics, but after I responded to that message, it reminded me of the circumstances surrounding the cancellation in 2003 of the Phil Donahue Show on MSNBC (the same outfit that's picked up Oberg's stuff). http://www.fair.org/activism/savage-donahue.html >But this enthusiasm for a "wide range of strong, opinionated >voices" rings hollow in the wake of MSNBC's firing of host Phil >Donahue. (FAIR's founder, Jeff Cohen, worked as a senior >producer for Donahue.) His show was cancelled despite having the >best ratings on the network; this occurred, according to >published reports, after a study commissioned by NBC described >Donahue as "a tired, left-wing liberal out of touch with the >current marketplace" who would be a "difficult public face for >NBC in a time of war" (All Your TV, 2/25/03). "He seems to >delight in presenting guests who are anti-war, anti-Bush and >skeptical of the administration's motives," the report noted, >warning that the Donahue show could be "a home for the liberal >antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving >the flag at every opportunity." As much as the big media corporations may love ratings, they seldom stray far from the rest of the herd. The other media conglomerates were waving the flag, so MSNBC, too, had to wave the flag and cancel their highest-rated show. Similarly, the news media as a group do not treat UFOs as a serious subject, so
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 19 Filer's Files #21 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:42:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:25:52 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #21 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #21 =96 2005 Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International May 18, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Sightings Continue Mexico petroglyph of space craft? This is a 7000 year petroglyph discovered in the province of Querato, Mexico in 1966. You can see four figures with their arms outstretched below a large oval object radiating what appear to be beams of light. Thanks to Mathew Hurley http://www.ufoartwork.com/ The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent a factual UFO sighting Articles this week include: Mexico petroglyph and Mars may have life. UFOs were seen over Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Utah, Virginia and Washington. Sightings were also reported in Australia, Belize, Canada, France, Mexico, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. http://www.ufoartwork.com/ Mars fossils match those on EarthArkaleus writes: When you gaze upon these fossils for the first time, a crucial question appears. How did these life forms come to be on TWO planets at roughly the same time? How else does life move from one place to another, except by migration or transplantation? Perhaps one of the most incredible fossils I found on this site was that of the squid. It is undeniably a squid, even to the most skeptical interpretation it has too many symmetries and geometrical similarities to a squid to be discounted. A squid can't jump very far, let alone leap the millions of miles needed to move from Mars to Earth.mhtml:mid://00000007/!cid:X.MA1.1116349107.nul This invites a marvelous fiction to develop within the mind. Either evolution is a totally misrepresented science, and life develops upon templates that are pre-existing and innate to matter itself, or somebody moved these life forms between the worlds by design. This would seem to indicate the presence of a vastly ancient intelligence responsible for a kind of cosmic gardening in this solar system. Not impossible, and wonderfully reassuring for such a lonely species as our own. Who were these beings? Did they move Martian life forms to earth, long ago, to avoid their extinction on Mars; a planet fated to lose its ability to support life? This would explain why so many sea creatures are so alien to other life forms on this world: They ARE alien life forms. These fossils tell us a lot more than just the existence of aquatic life on Mars. They are the empirical evidence of the gods themselves, those beings science has safely put away from themselves as fables of the ancients. Nothing BUT an intelligent undertaking could transplant all these species between two vastly separated worlds. This may indicate that life may not be native to this solar system at all, that it may in fact be imported, much like a gardener must import seeds to his own soil, to put in what was not there before. This discovery may be the catalyst for a whole new era of creationism, a true science, and may indeed be the first empirical evidence of god we as a species have ever encountered. Thanks to Arkaleus and Sir Charles W. Shults http://xenotechresearch.com/mhydro1.htm Alaska saucer-like craft flies northwestJUNEAU -- The sun was setting, the witness was looking northwest at the Gastineau Channel on April 23, 2005, at 6:30 PM, when he saw an object moving northwest. The object was a saucer shape and was much smaller than a commercial airplane. It was bright, from reflected sunlight. I assumed that it was metallic, and its color was probably silver. The object moved in a straight line, with some tilting on its axis from one side to the other. Its motion was quick, and silent and I watched it until it was too small to see. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Arkansas disk spotted FT. SMITH =96 The witness reports seeing six circular objects at 9:31 PM, on April 26, 2005, at the I-540 bridge which connects Crawford & Sebastian counties. They split into pairs, with two flying west, two flew north, and two went south. The lights rotated in circular pattern, with one center light. There was no sound. The lights blinked in a clockwise motion, then went out except for one in the center, that looked like a star. She could still make out a shape, because they only appeared to be about 2000 feet high. Three circular objects were seen five miles east of Mulberry, over the Arkansas River going west at 10:15 PM having no sound. When she got to work, one was just to the south-east of her and hovering somewhere near the airport. Then suddenly a National Guard jet took off from the airport, and search lights came on around the airport. & the lights disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com California Cylinder NORTH HILLS =96 The witness looked north and saw two cylinder shaped objects on April 19, 2005, at midnight. They were traveling north at a slow speed, and suddenly disappeared. The objects were gray in color. No other things were observed. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com SONORA -- Mark A. Olson, D.M.writes, "On May 1, 2005, I looked out my front window and saw a bright disk-shaped object moving very slowly over the trees, heading North. I ran back inside to grab my camcorder, but didn't have time to grab the tripod. I managed to catch the object for approximately 45 seconds before losing sight of it behind a tree. The object was large and bright silver-white. I've attached a video clip of the object for your perusal=94. Thanks to Mark A. Olson, D.M. www.sonorasightings.com Delaware Light over General Motors plantWILMINGTON -- I was out doing carts for Acme Markets in Delaware when I looked up over the GM plant and saw a plane on April 19, 2005, at 9 PM, and spotted a green light flying west away from the plant. He states, "I heard no sound as the light switched from green to pink to amber as it continued east toward Elsmere.=94 It proceeded to shoot up, hover, and then accelerate to the west at a high rate of speed where I lost it. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Connecticut triangle with three lights ANSONIA =96 The witness observed a row of lights hovering at a low altitude of about only 200 feet above the ground on May 5, 2005 at 8:30 PM. The witness pulled off the highway, and doubled back, as the object silently and slowly moved over the horizon. It did not make a sound. White lights were on each corner of the triangle. The lights pulsated slowly, and slightly. While crossing it's path, the middle light began to move. The witness discovered that object was far larger than helicopter dimensions. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Florida triangular object FLORAL CITY =96 The observer was out having a late night swim in the pool on a beautiful 73 degree night, when he noticed an object approaching from the north flying south fast towards Tampa at 10:45 PM, on April 29, 2005. I watched it fly overhead - bright white lights at the three corners of the triangle and a blinking red light in the "belly." Traveling fast - at arm's length it would take a tennis ball to cover the object. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com PLANT CITY =96 The witness reports sighting two objects that at first appeared to just be stars were moving in two different formations in the night sky. At 10:33 PM, I looked toward the constellation Gemini, and I did a double take because two stars appeared to be moving from west to east. One was following directly behind the other the distance between two fingers making a "victory" sign. The second light moved south and caught up with the front light and they continued to proceed east. JUPITER -- Craft appeared hovering initially with a stream behind it. Rear configuration of lights which appeared star-like changed position/direction at 9:30 PM. Three distinct lights circled by halo followed, leading watcher to conclusion that craft had changed direction and was moving away. It was quickly out of sight.((NUFORC Note: We assume that the witnesses were describing the launch of a Titan IV missile out of Cape Canaveral, which occurred at 20:55 hrs. (Eastern) on this date. The missile apparently was launched to the northeast, so it was visible along the eastern shoreline of the US. PD)) Kentucky black oval object observed BOWLING GREEN -- I am a Christian, and I work in a professional environment and am telling you the truth. The observer was traveling home from work driving down Russellville Road on April 16, 2005, at 5 PM, and saw a perfectly round bright black object sitting high up in the sky. It was completely round and solid black, and it seemed like it was not moving at all. It was a basketball sized round black object sitting stationary in the sky. It was definitely far away and very high up in the sky. If this was a balloon of some sort then why was it black? Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Idaho a missile "suspended" below jet SANDPOINT =96 The observer saw a white missile-shaped object, about five-sixths of the length of the plane, suspended beneath the body of the plane on May 10, 2005 at 5 PM.. There is a mountain of 2000' that is the background for the view, dark rock and evergreens. The weather was clear, and the sighting was to the north of my house, an unobstructed view , and about one mile away. The plane was very quiet- usually the jets are much noisier! The plane looked gray in contrast to the really slender white missile shaped. There were no lights or markings. My DVD player stopped working about 30 seconds before I saw the plane.((NUFORC Note: Peter Davenport, We wonder whether the witness might have observed a USAF AWACS (E-3A) aircraft, or some other type of military aircraft. Just a guess. PD)) Maine oval seen for ten minutes. WATERBORO -- On April 29, 2005, the witness spotted two bright lights overhead, one emitting three rays of light and then, a circle of light around it passing west to east at a high altitude at 9:45 PM for ten minutes. The satellite looking object was somewhat brighter and was traveling west to east at the apparent altitude of a satellite. It suddenly emitted a stream of misty light out of both sides toward the rear of the object, and shortly after a misty light out of the front of it in the direction of its travel. These three lights continued for a couple of seconds and went out. Then the object was encircled with a white misty light continuing on its way toward the horizon. A second object appeared overhead traveling the same altitude and direction about 5 miles behind the first. Both objects continued over the horizon. My home is 30 miles from Portland Maine airport where I work for the FAA as a technician. I see arrivals and departures over my house all the time. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Massachusetts spectacular rectangle seen ROCKPORT -- A MUFON investigator called his mother to chat and to let her know that there would be a bright high pass of the International Space Station (ISS) at 8:46 PM. At about 8:24 PM, she said in an excited voice that 'she saw it and oh my God it is so big,' etc. I told her it was too early for the ISS, but she insisted and said it was no satellite or meteor.She said the object was the shape of a rectangular box. It was bright yellow with no other lights and was flying south as if some intelligence were guiding it. It was not drifting aimlessly or shooting like a meteor. She said she did not notice any physical effects in her body, but I heard an uncharacteristic agitation in her voice. The object came from the north at about 30 degrees when she first noticed it. Mom held a 3" by 5" box in her hand and said that is how large it appeared in the sky with the luminescence as bright as the moon. The highest elevation observed was approximately 75 degrees.There was a small plane and a jet that flew in the same direction. She went to the kitchen window to see it again and it vanished. It was a clear night, so it either sped up or just disappeared.The Heavens-Above website gives observation times within a second. I am submitting this report for my mother who is 76 years young in possession of all of her faculties. I am a MUFON investigator. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com New York red almond shaped objects CONSTABLEVILLE =96 The witness saw two red colored almond shaped objects that looked like eyes. on April 22, 2005, at 12 PM. He was standing outside looking up at dark sky and saw a shooting star. The witness saw an almond shaped red light rise above the trees about 1/2 mile away and stayed there. Then another red light, rose up from the treeline. It looked like two very large almonds and stayed for about 20 seconds. Then the right side went down into the trees and disappeared, followed by the left side of the 'eyes'. It was very scary. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Missouri white light in the skyST. LOUIS =96 The witness was standing in the street talking to a few friends on April 14, 2005, at 8:52 PM, and saw three straight dots in the sky. There was a bright light in the western sky that started moving, slowed a little and then started up again. We watched as it flew at a high rate of speed, slowed down and went in its exact opposite direction. As it did this it did get too much further from us when it seemed to be moving slower again, but this time it got dimmer and dimmer. After this I saw two F-15 fighters just fly out, and then I called 911 to find out what had happened, they referred me to Scott Air Force Base, who directed me to Peter Davenport. Thanks to www.ufocenter.com Nevada disk LAS VEGAS -- Looking north of the city the witness a retired nurse saw a gray disc moving erratically on April 18, 2005, at 1 PM. She was sitting in her backyard when she saw a charcoal grayish colored round disc (saucer) to the north flying from west to east. The object seemed slightly wider on the bottom. The total time of the sighting was about a minute or slightly less. It began to drift side to side descending some as it did. Then it moved at a steady upward slight incline and vanished! Shortly, what she thought were military jets flew through that area with two in front and one behind, from east to west.((NUFORC Note: We spoke with this witness via telephone, and she seemed exceptionally objective and lucid to us; we suspect that she is a very good witness. PD)) New Jersey small silver cigar MONMOUTH COUNTY =96 The observer states, "I was on Route 35 in Monmouth County with my father on April 16, 2005, at 3 PM, when I noticed a small silver cigar or disk shaped object in the sky.=94 It was gleaming in the sun very brightly, and was moving pretty quickly. I watched about six seconds, then, it disappeared in the cloudless sky, and then two seconds later, it showed up again, and then disappeared as fast as it appeared. I asked my father if he saw it and he said he didn't notice. I'm almost positive it wasn't a plane. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com North Carolina photos from Alan Caviness: DAVIDSON COUNTY -- These two pictures were taken by a colleague of mine with a 3.0 megapixel digital camera at 5 PM, on March 23, 2005 during a period of stormy weather. Approximately 10 miles to the north, residents were put on alert at this time for possible tornado activity in a strong storm band traveling from west to east. The dark clouds in these pictures were part of the southern edge of the storm front. The object was not visible to the UFO field investigator who took the photos. This is a site for frequent UFO activity and is being monitored regularly. Only 12 days earlier, I had shot nighttime UFOs from the same property. Some of them were small, round shapes with color. In most cases, the UFOs in this area are invisible but can be detected by digital cameras with their infrared sensitivity. The investigator who shot these pictures believes that UFOs in the area are attracted to thunderstorms and "feed" off the energy generated by them. Thanks to Alan Caviness, Field Investigator - central North Carolina who has put together a great CD of close to 100 other photographs shot from this geographical area. These are available on CD for new subscribers to Filers Files. Ohio birds and UFOs - FOSTORIA - Several people have commented that George Ritter's VHS videos could be birds or insects. George frequently gets video of birds and insects that are on multiple frames in the video. Generally the UFOs which travel much faster are on only one or two frames of the video. The top photo shows typical UFOs while the bottom is a bird. UFOs were taken on 10 May 2005, at 6 PM. Thanks to George Ritter. Pennsylvania disk CHELTENHAM =96 The witness was walking his dog at 11 PM, on April 29, 2005, when he noticed a large circular flying object which was lit up with a glow flying in his direction. Within 10 seconds it quickly changed direction and within another 5 seconds it was gone. The object was large and moved from one direction to another quickly. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Utah triangle and flexible mass SALT LAKE CITY -- My friends and I were camping pretty deep into little Cottonwood Canyon on April 10, 2005, at 2:37 PM. We were laying down and thought we saw a bluish flash to the east without any sound. So we got up to take a look and we didn't go far, and in a clearing there was a dark mass floating in the air. It was more or less flat and it seemed round but its entire mass did not move in unison. It sort of rippled but not in any coherent pattern. On the bottom surface there was a constant activity of blue flashes freckled across the object. We all noticed the air felt very cold and moist and like static. Finally, some pieces fell off the object. They sprinkled off and shimmered as they fell to the ground. Then the object left slowly but the actual movement seemed imperceptible. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Virginia - Missile shaped craft MECHANICSVILLE/AYLETT =96 The witness saw a missile shaped craft, estimated at three car lengths long or about sixty feet long on April 24, 2005, at 9:45 PM. The craft had a cone nose which was dark in color, and the body was plain silver/metal. There were no noticeable features along the body of the "cylinder." The body is estimated to have a diameter similar to an H2 (Hummer) from side to side (door to door). The tail had two red lights and one white that were blinking, but not in sync. No wings were visible. The witness was driving towards Aylett, VA down the Mechanicsville Turnpike. The lights seemed mounted to a propulsion mechanism. The craft moved with the traffic towards Mechanicsville, at an estimated 60 miles an hour, hovering just above tree level estimated at 35 feet. The craft was spotted near the Hayne's Boat company which has lots of lighting making the body of the craft quite visible. The craft emitted no sound. Once the craft had supposedly moved in rear-view, it was not visible in rear or side view mirrors. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Washington disk CAMAS, Vancouver -- The observers, a young married couple, in their mid-20's, witnessed a congregation of unknown craft, east of their home at 1:20 AM, on April 19, 2005. My wife noticed a star-like object swaying in the distance, through our bedroom window. It was extremely clear that evening and the moon was very bright. The witness states, "We both got out of bed to get a closer look, when we noticed three+ objects, all emitting what looked like red and green light.=94 Not believing what we were seeing, several other craft came into view to the north of us. We witnessed strange and rapid movements, and light emissions. After 10 minutes, I grabbed our video camera and started filming. We switched off, capturing 20-30 minutes of footage. We filmed interaction between the craft and obscure individual movement of 2-3 of them. Viewing the objects through the video lens allowed us to see much greater detail and some great close- ups were captured. My wife believes she saw this same bright object the following night. However as she turned on the video camera and started to focus on it, the video camera shut off. She tried a second time, and the video camera shut off again. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Australia disk TOWNSVILLE =96 The observers report seeing a circular saucer type craft with lights flashing in a rotary circular fashion at 8:13 PM, on April 28, 2005. They were driving south on the East Coast on a perfectly clear night, when they saw a UFO ahead and to my right hand side of the road. It was saucer in shape with flashing lights on the underside of the craft. The lights flashed in a rotary circular fashion. It was hovering at no more than 100 feet above the field, then, suddenly it completely disappeared. I was lost for words at the sight and could not speak until after the craft vanished. I then asked my passengesr if they had seen it, they had. COOBER PEDY -- Keith Douglass reports that a local chap of Coober Pedy in central Australia was lucky enough to record these images of an alleged UFO craft on April 15, 2005, at around 10.30 PM, on a Friday night. The wittiness said he went outside and noticed a orange light and a white light over the northwest near the horizon. The orange light appeared to move, so he went inside to get his camcorder and his wife. While he filmed, the light came closer, another white light was just below the orange light. Unfortunately, the witness said he could not locate the other white light it in the view finder. The craft loitered for half an hour. The orange light came closer and he could see a glowing dome on top, the object finally shot off to the northwest. Thanks to Keith Douglass http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Coober_Pedy.html Canada disc photographed KINGSTON, ONTARIO -- Dirk Vander Ploeg Received a photo of a definite UFO from Tim in Canada. The photo was taken on December 4, 2004 in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. I have enlarged the section of the object in the night sky and attempted to brighten it. I used Adobe Photoshop for all tests regarding the object. A clear image of a solid object is evident. Is it an extraterrestrial UFO, I don't know. It is a definitely an unidentified flying object. More photos at http://www.ufodigest.com/kingston.html by Dirk Vander Ploeg. Thanks to Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch- international.org/ WINNIPEG -- Rick Paley reports, "I am a businessman, and would like to report a May 15, 2005, daylight sighting at 4:40 PM, that lasted for fifteen minutes. I was a passenger riding in a convertible on Mayfair Avenue and the new bridge, when I noticed a bright object in the northeast similar in brightness to Regulus if it were in the night sky with the exception this was daylight. We noticed that it remained stationary and appeared to be getting larger as if it were descending. We pulled over on Main just past the CN Station. It was moving towards the SW. It had become larger and looked like two balls turning clockwise slowly and was now emanating a bright reddish light. The reddish light went from a single distinct light to 3 lights then back to a single light then into two lights and back into three lights. It seemed to hover emanating these lights, then began rising and changed to a darker color with a silver edge and now looked like an oval, solid object with some sort of "field" surrounding it making it appear very dark. It started moving east and then stopped and began to rise further into the sky. We watched it for a few more minutes as it became smaller it flew north and disappeared. Thanks to Rick Paley France two flying triangles PARIS 44 Two flying triangles were seen above Paris on June 30, 2004, by Marc who forwarded his testimony to me . "About midnight, I looked at the sky from my balcony and saw a group of luminous weak of light in triangular formation passing overhead for a second or so. I did not believe my eyes but yelled at my wife to come to see but she arrived too late. As she watched she saw another triangle, completely different from the first that turned behind a building! Mexico Lighted UFO making tight circle PLAYA DEL CARMEN -- This object appeared as light moving about a mile off the Playa Car coast heading north towards Cancun on April 29, 2005, at 11:30 PM. The object had a bluish white glow with tints of green and red flickering (almost like a reflection). The craft flew with the coast line, then made a tight circle and came out on a tangent from the start of the circles with a slight acceleration. When the craft accelerated, the resorts lights around the massive pool area and surrounding buildings dimmed for 30 seconds. The weather was clear and there was no sound. The path of the craft was not part of the Cancun Airports flight path. Also, the tight circle could not have been made by any aircraft. Its lights were not flashing but more changing and "fluxing" with frequency. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Belize bight lights San Pedro =96 The lights looked like two stars but they were moving very slowly due east of the island near Ambergris Caye on April 19, 2005, at 6:30 PM. They where visible for at least 10- 15 seconds then all of a sudden one disappeared and then the other followed. They where very bright. They looked like giant stars with just one big bright light. The objects did not leave any trails they just simply disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com Canada silent craft over west end TORONTO -- Sitting on the porch a loud strange plane noise compelled me to look up on April 19, 2005, at 11:15 PM. At first I thought I spotted a bird, but then a gray triangular projectile passed over head with no lights or possibly a faint white light in the middle. There was no noise associated with the passage of the craft. VERNON, BC -- On May 7, 2005, about 2 AM, star like objects that brighten to the size of Venus were observed. Similar lights were reported last year. The witness counted several passes last night, south to Kelowna, east to Lumby, west over Lake Okanagan, and north toward Armstrong. Every so often one would brighten to the size of Venus and then fade to a small orange color and disappear. They look like low flying satellites. Two satellites were flying, one behind the other and a third light appeared between the two others. The front light was the brightness of a satellite and the two following were duller suggesting the edge of something with big under lights. I also heard the puzzling sound of a muted jet engine. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research www.hbccufo.com Sweden bright light flying object GOTHENBURG =96 The witness saw a bright shining light like the Northern Star on May 7, 2005, but it was flying in a straight line. As he watched, it changed direction to leave the earth's atmosphere very ,very fast with the speed of lightning. This usually happens at 11 PM. The first time we saw it was August 1999. We have seen a documentary on TV in 2001, that showed the same objects filmed by NASA. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com UK/England several strange lights BERKSHIRE COUNTY =96 The witness had just dropped off a friend at 1 PM, on April 19, 2005, when he saw something very strange. He states, "I saw up to 15 large lights in the skies while driving home and they were everywhere in the sky all of them spaced out evenly.=94 Some were more lit than the others, and their lights appeared to be twinkling/flashing/pulsating, they seemed to be more or less stationary with slight movement. As I got home I saw three lights above my house, only one was very bright while the others were not as bright. I stood there smoking a cigarette and staring at these lights. I noticed that the larger light was moving in small circles but I couldn't make out the formation of its movement and after ten minutes they all dimmed a little but they were still visible. The next day I told a few trusted people and they say they didn't see anything of the sort. It was very strange indeed. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director, www.ufocenter.com Donate to Filer's Files to receive UFO CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:10:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:47:41 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Smith >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:28:19 -0400 >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >Beside hours of videotape they also got the world's first(?) >infrared photos and a diffraction grating - spectrum - photo. In "Project Identification" Plate 27, there is an image dated March 27, 1973, "Time exposure of approximately 2 minutes taken by Gary Sutton at Millers High Point, Piedmont Mo using a Petri 35 mm camera loaded with infrared sensitive film and a lens of 400 mm folcal length." Also, even though he does not show the grating in a plate in his 1981 book, he says he did take a diffraction grating photo. This is on pg 194. " ...I had procured blazed transmission diffraction gratings to place in front of the camera lens, even when the camera was attached to the Celestron telescope. The more efficient gratings would enhance my chances of capturing the color spectrum of a UFO on film." Date December 13, 1974: "When the slide film was developed, this Class B sighting exhibtied a color spectrum". So refreshing to re-read Dr. Rutledge's great UFO field research! What a guy! Anyone who knows his address, it would be nice to know if he still has the spectrum photo and if he can scan it in or provide
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:24:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:50:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Shell >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >Usually crosshairs or right angled marks >- reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right into >a thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. The crosshairs seen on the lunar photos and others are marked on a flat glass plate, called a reseau plate, which is right in front of the film and pressed against the film by spring pressure during the exposure. Reseau plates are used on metric cameras (mapping cameras) and are not reticles or graticules. Reseau plates are never between lenses! If they were, there would be no focused image of them on the film. A digital mapping camera would have the + marks on a glass plate in front of (and in contact with) the digital sensor array. This would produce sharp + marks, just as on a film camera. Personally, I think we're seeing some sort of high-altitude balloon, or balloons. The soft focus is because the balloon is much closer to the camera and outside of its field of sharp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:29:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:51:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >If they are registration marks they are a fuzzy and imprecise >representation of same. Usually crosshairs or right angled >marks - reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right into >a thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. Yes, I agree that most other such marks HAVE to be sharp. I was really just parroting the guys assessment as best I could remember it. Some said it was likely a drop on the camera lens (I doubt this, it seems like there was just one aircraft based photo at altitude which was merged with the satellite images of the surrounding area). Some said it was some sort of watermark. Someone even said they are thumbtacks. This assumes many photos of the area and some sort of wallboard is used to hold them in place when a photomosai is made. >Why would this particular satellite - or aircraft - camera >resort to such an imprecise method? Additionally, some of the >white fuzzy dots are only half visible. Yeah, its odd. >Not solved for me as yet. >How about a high altitude scientific balloon - 300-400 feet in >diameter, or smaller - hanging nearly motionless in the same >spot for an hour or so, with the aircraft shooting on different >east west tracks and getting parallex images of the same object >each time? We would have to know for sure how the photo was created. I assumed it was 1 photo, so the parallax method doesn't work. >This would make the image appear to be in different places and >fuzzy due to the focal length if the balloon was thousands of >feet closer to the aircraft - if these are aircraft - as >platform shots. More have been found in L.A.!! http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.134822,-117.603793&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k&hl=en Unless these identical objects are covering our skies over our cities, it seems some pretty prosaic explanation it likely and hardly worth our time to find out (unless you have nothing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: oogle Maps Captures UFO? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:33:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:52:34 -0400 Subject: Re: oogle Maps Captures UFO? - Balaskas >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:13 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? <snip> >>>Increasingly, it's beginning to look as if anti gravity >>>involves strong and perhaps new field types which interact with >>>gravity waves (per Tom Bearden for one) and it's quite likely >>>that the fuzzing in that photo was due to an advanced field type >>>rather than out of focus. <snip> >>The real analysis shows something less than an alien spacecraft. >>I agree with the work of the fewllow at the below links. >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ <snip> >>So the assessment that it is likely registration dots to >>match/patch images from different sources makes sense. <snip> >If they are registration marks they are a fuzzy and imprecise >representation of same. Usually crosshairs or right angled marks >- reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right into a >thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. >Why would this particular satellite - or aircraft - camera >resort to such an imprecise method? Additionally, some of the >white fuzzy dots are only half visible. >Not solved for me as yet. >How about a high altitude scientific balloon - 300-400 feet in >diameter, or smaller - hanging nearly motionless in the same >spot for an hour or so, with the aircraft shooting on different >east west tracks and getting parallex images of the same object >each time? <snip> Hi Everyone! If you go back to the web site above and check out the 12 new such UFOs over LA that "jher" brings to our attention, either all these identical looking UFOs are "registration marks" or the world is being invaded by thousands of massive alien craft not unlike in the science fiction movie "Independence Day". If the later is indeed the case, I am sure Don, Eleanor, myself and other UFO UpDates Listers with some flying experience would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:52:10 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:55:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? - Gonzalez >From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:01:22 EDT >Subject: Re: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:31:11 +0200 >>Subject: Geneseo Illinois Case? >>Reviewing UFOs And Popular Culture, the Encyclopedia >>compiled by James R. Lewis, I came across an illustration >>on page 265, from the Mary Evans Picture Library, of a UFO >>"Driving near Geneseo, Illinois, Rex Ball sees a strange object >>in a field. He falls sleep but is vaguely aware of small, hairy, >>Japanese like aliens who abduct him.." >>I have been unable to locate the case. Can anybody help? >Location. Georgia, exact location not given >Date: 1940 Time: unknown >An engineer named Rex Ball came upon a mysterious underground >installation operated by small Oriental-looking men in coveralls >and a few American military officers. When he was caught in one >of the tunnels, one of the officers issued the curt command, >"Make him look like a nut!" He woke up in a field, uncertain >whether his experienced had been real or a dream. >HC addition # 3101 >Source: John Keel, The Mothman Prophecies Type: E or G? >----- >This is the only reference I found on Rex Ball, I wonder if it >is the same thing? Keel never mentions Illinois Thanks to Hilary Evans, I can confirm that the case mentioned by Albert Rosales is the one I was looking for. Efectively, it alleged happened in Geneseo, Illinois, during the summer of 1940. The source mentioned by Evans was: Frank Martin Chase, "Document 96", published by Saucerian Publications, 1968, pp. 100-104. The story is a blend of the two versions already mentioned. The person who interviewed Rex Ball was one Lowry Preston, a writer formerly with Viking American Publications. Frank Chase wrote: "To the author, Rex Ball refused to make a direct narrative of this part of the incident. Ball already has disappeared from the United States, and verification of this cannot be sought". Allegedly, Rex had mentioned only a UFO sighting (a disc high in the sky overhead) but afterwards a few hours passed, seemingly with him unconcious on the ground beside his car, after an exhausting drive from Detroit. Semi-conscious, he remembers that a group of small persons approached, lifted and walked him to the landed UFO. They looked like pygmy Japanese. After a "doorway amnesia", he found himself being led by some soldierly persons, much different than the 'Japanese', into a tunnel or cave, and dressed in a U.S. Army uniform. There are plenty of underground small rooms filled with U.S. Army officers. One told him: "You are now under Fort Knox". He met a general who just ordered to return him back, so he is led through several subterranean passages into a room with the UFO and the little oriental men. He got inside and the craft departs into an exit tunnel. "With the sudden cessation of light, as we moved (...) my recollections are cut off (...) until I woke up that evening in the small community hospital. A fascinating story.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:02:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:56:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:11:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/48556057.nul/13647471/ >When I look at the link above, I see little dark, white-outlined >circles with some sort of green object across them. Not at all >like the google maps "satellite" image. Some guy found the position of every other "UFO" circle in the image and then mapped them out on a zoomed out images to see where they lay. >However, the original image at the original link doesn't look >like any "registration marks" I've ever seen, but then I'm not >an aerial photo expert. Still, the original image is a very >strange way to make registration marks, and I doubt it was. Okay, maybe they aren't exactly that. I am not familiar enough with such marks except that every one I have seen was sharp and had an edge. But they seem to be some sort of image processing/tagging/registration mark. >Also - the original image is of a very high density residential >development. In the flickr.com image, I don't see any cultural >features even close to that. While I'm not an aerial photo >expert, I have done some flying so I know reasonably well what >looks like what from low to medium altitude. Original one: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.748705,-80.074496&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k Others that show up as points on overview map: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.748651,-80.189370&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.801105,-80.130801&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.902041,-80.357265&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.903071,-80.302463&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=27.002431,-80.243862&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.902063,-80.245696&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.902235,-80.077393&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Manso From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:16:20 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:58:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Manso >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:11:52 +0000 >Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET <snip> >I just made inquiries and learned that the actual monitoring and >data-gathering phase is long since concluded, and they have >been trying to locate an independent statistician to analyze the >data. <snip> >P.S. For obvious reasons, the statistician cannot be a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:16:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:00:11 -0400 Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases - Smith >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:12:57 -0500 >Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:04:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: How To Crack Weird Space Cases Erik Landahl has provided me with persuasive arguments that I should not be fooled by the APPARENT bias in the media (liberal vs conservative). >James Smith's comments seemed to suggest that the news media >would find UFO stories irresistable because of the surefire >ratings they would get (further implying that they don't cover >UFO stories because there's nothing to cover). I did not imply that. There are many UFO reports that are made and submitted to the wire services. Has happened for decades. These are "just-so" reports with little or no analysis. They usually have the effect of saying something weird is going on and we have no explanation. This seems pretty fair UFO coverage! They cover UFOs in small doses and do not consider it the greatest story of all time. It is UFOtainment. Some off-beat thing that takes our minds off the murders, kidnappings, rapes, weapons of mass destruction, political shinanigans. If you want in depth UFO stories, then you are right, they likely do not want to do this. More because it isn't going to sell, than some media conspriacy I would guess. It has to be sensational to sell to the public. The public really isn't interested in detailed analysis of the UFO phenomena. They want
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Secrecy News -- 05/19/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:22:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:02:09 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/19/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 47 May 19, 2005 ** REPORT ON OVERSEAS BASES REMOVED FROM WEB ** NUCLEAR ATTACK PLANNING BASE 1990 ** CRS STUFF ** ARMY BAND LEADER HANDBOOK REPORT ON OVERSEAS BASES REMOVED FROM WEB A report to Congress from the Overseas Basing Commission was removed from the Commission's web site last week after the Department of Defense complained that its publication involved "unauthorized disclosure of classified information." But "The commission is confident that everything in our report was obtained from unclassified sources or settings," Commission chairman Al Cornella told the Washington Post. Along with forthright criticism of current Pentagon planning, the suppressed Commission report concluded ironically that "The nation would benefit from a more inclusive discussion on how best to ensure the greater security of the United States." (p. C&R 3). The main body of the May 9 report of the Overseas Basing Commission, not including several appendices, was preserved on the web site of Rep. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX). A copy is posted here (5.4 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/obc.pdf See also "Report Critical of Rumsfeld Is Pulled After DOD Protest" by Mike Allen, Washington Post, May 16, 2005: http://tinyurl.com/auvr6 NUCLEAR ATTACK PLANNING BASE 1990 The Final Report of the Nuclear Attack Planning Base 1990 (NAPB 90) project, a little-known classic of the late cold war era on the consequences of a nuclear war, was released under the Freedom of Information Act and is now available online. NAPB-90 was undertaken by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) in 1985-86 to estimate the physical effects of a Soviet nuclear strike against the United States. It presents detailed assessments of casualties and other damages due to nuclear weapons blast overpressure, fire and radiation. "NAPB-90 cannot be used to predict how a nuclear war would be fought against the U.S. but merely identifies areas and populations which are at potential risk from nuclear weapon effects," the final report states. "It represents a credible estimate of the potential risk from a large-scale nuclear attack on the U.S., having been constructed on logical, studied assumptions and available empirical data." (p.2). The approximately 800 page final report, originally marked Limited Distribution and Not for Public Release, has long been hard to find. In response to a Freedom of Information Act request from Allen Thomson, FEMA courteously provided its library reference copy on loan. The full text of "Nuclear Attack Planning Base-1990 Final Project Report," April 1987, is now here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/napb-90/index.html CRS STUFF Some recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include these. "Federal Counter-Terrorism Training: Issues for Congressional Oversight," May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32920.pdf "Military Retirement: Major Legislative Issues," updated May 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB85159.pdf "Bioterrorism Countermeasure Development: Issues in Patents and Homeland Security," May 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32917.pdf ARMY BAND LEADER HANDBOOK It seems improbable that anyone would join the military in order to serve as a musician. But bands and orchestras are an established part of military ceremony, and so they even have their official guidelines and "doctrine." The U.S. Army this month issued an updated Handbook for Army Band Leaders. It includes an informative account of the origin and history of instruments used in Army bands, and provides practical guidance for band organization and rehearsal. Among the band leader's more subtle and profound duties is to appraise his band members, so as to integrate them into a cohesive and well-tempered unit. "Every section leader must know each player's capabilities before effectively employing those capabilities. This is a continually ongoing process, beginning with evaluating a new player, through daily observation of their development, until the day that Soldier leaves the band." See "Army Band Section Leader Handbook," Training Circular 12- 44, dated 23 May 2005 (70 pages, 1.1 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/tc12_44.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:14:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:03:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:54:01 -0400 (Eastern >Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman >Texas Video >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video <snip> >Larry confessed that he thought these was a formation of rare >birds of some kind but being unsure of what he got on tape >decided to keep it secret with him until he found the mexican >footage. >The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, >We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's >characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent >with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement >in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 >footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. >This is a confirmation that the UFO flotillas is a global >phenomena and more reports are coming from other countries. >Thanks to Larry and BJ Booth for releasing this information and >provide the evidences. >http://www.ufocasebook.com/kaufmanbirdufo.html >Hi Santiago! >Since after studying the Kaufman, Texas UFO video you came to >the conclusion that its "characteristics and parameters" were >consistent with the behaviour, movement and perfect synchronized >formation found in the Mexican UFO videos, you may have actually >confirmed that the correct explanation for these UFOs are birds >- just as Larry thought until he saw the very similar Mexican >UFO footage. >Although the objects in the sky and the leaves on the tree in >the Kaufman video are not in focus are are not clearly defined, >the behaviour of the objects are not inconsistent with a high >flying flock of birds such as seagulls. Since there are several >large lakes around Kaufman, the identity of these objects as >seagulls is not an unreasonable one. The movement of the objects >in the sky are also random and consistent to that of birds, such >as seagulls which, unlike Canadian geese, do not normally fly in >formation. As for me, I did not see anything in the Kaufman >video clip that supports what you say is motion "in perfect >synchronized formation" as one would expect for a fleet of UFOs >(or Canadian geese) flying overhead. >The observation that convinces me that these objects in the sky >cannot be symmetrical "nuts and bolts" manufactured craft or >UFOs is that, even though they are little more than out-of-focus >white spots, the spots do change shape and in brightness in a >random manner that further suggests Larry's first guess that >they were birds is the correct one. >Since such high flying flocks of birds are not unique to Mexico >or Texas, I will agree with you that this is indeed a global >phenomena. I recall one nice summer day in the late 1980s while >laying flat on a lawn chair in my backyard in suburban Toronto >reading Leonard Stringfield's 'UFO Crash/Retrieval' monograph I >noticed many white dots manouvering high in the clear blue sky >above me. Although I could not resolve these white dots as >birds, since it had rained earlier, I concluded that they must >be seagulls that moved inland from nearby Lake Ontario in search >of food. I did momentarily entertain the idea that this flock of >birds was actually a fleet of UFOs that for some reason happened >to congregate over my part of town and it did not take much >imagination in my part to believe this. Hello Nick, I don't agree with the explanation that the objects in the Kaufman, Texas could be a formation of birds. I don't see wings of any kind here at anytime and I assure you I have reviewed the video clip many times even in slow motion and I'm convinced these are not birds or balloons. As you know we have many videos of the mexican fleets to compare with the Kaufman footage and besides we have developed certain experience in analyzing this specific kind of videos. I repeat that I find the Kaufman footage objects not conventional. There may be some lakes around that place in Texas but to assure these objects are just pellicans from a lake is simply not a fact, that is not a confirmed fact in wich case this sighting remains in discussion. For Larry " Lawwalk " his sighting must have been a quite disturbing one due to the unusual characteristics so he looked for a reasonable explanation first and his reaction was the correct one, to apply the logic. However and if you review his testimonial he was'nt so sure at all and later he decided his video was worth to be shown. I belive Larry being a skywatcher has gained experience in videotaping UFO sightings and I'm sure he can distingush the diference among birds or balloons than UFOs. In any case he remains indecisive about this sighting and he's asking for advice and that's what our position is providing. In my point of view the Kaufman flying objects are not pellicans. >If white spots were indeed higher flying larger UFOs instead of >birds, I was sure they would have been noticed and reported by >many others living in this large metropolitan area (although no >where near as large as Mexico City for example). Apparently no >one else must of been thinking of high flying UFOs like me that >nice summer day because no one bothered to make an official >report so I concluded that the white spots were just birds >obervable only over my immediate neighbourhood. We know very well that the american people react diferent than the mexican people and we have seen a lot of disinterest in coming forward making official UFO reports or perhaps fear to ridicule and of course most of the times people don't even look to the sky. On the other hand there are a good number of persons that report their sightings even that many of them have not evidences on video or photographs. These increasing number of people have been taken seriously and most of the time as you know their reports are lone ones refering to that specific location and not necesarely with multiple witnesses as you are questioning. To condition a sighting to be reported by many witnesses and the media just to be considered legitimate is not fair. In our position a sighting report that provides an evidence on video is worth to be considered legitimate if the analisis of the evidence results proof positive. Larry " Lawwalk " is an experienced skywatcher that provides evidence on video. Has'nt occured to you Nick that maybe he was alone that afternoon ? In any case is'nt Larry's evidence good enough to establish a sighting took place either it were UFOs or pellicans ? So let's not condition this sighting's status to the need for more witnesses because that's not fair. We should continue our discussions on these issues. I think we have manys diferent cases to be evaluated and the Kaufman case is just one of them, a one that for good has been taken out from anonymity. >Thank you again Santiago for sending me the video cassette of >the Mexican UFO fleet footage which I am anxiously looking >forward to see and have others view too, some of whom are photo >analysts and thus better qualified to evaluate such videos than <me. Each video that is suspected to depict UFOs flying in >formation must be studied independently and we should not allow >our biases or opinions, pro or con, to make pre-judgments >before such analysis is done. If we do, we risk looking foolish >and discrediting ufology in the eyes of the public.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:30:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:06:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:32:32 +0100 >Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman >Texas Video >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video <snip> >The video is great. At broad daylight and a tree as a reference, >We have studied this video here in Mexico and according to it's >characteristics and parameters we concluded that it's consistent >with the mexican UFO fleets videos, same behavior, same movement >in perfect synchronized formation the Kaufman Texas May 3, 2004 >footage by Larry " Lawwalk " is for us a UFO fleet evidence. >The Mexican "UFO fleets" were strongly advocated as >strange >because the objects supposedly kept rigid formation and _didn't_ >mill about like birds. This led to much talk of balloons and >string. Now the objects in this video plainly _do_ mill about. >Like birds, just as the photographer says. So "same behaviour, >same movement"? How can that be? "Perfect synchronised >formation"? Not the video I'm watching. >What exactly are these "characteristics and parameters" you >studied, Santiago? What is the FOV of the camera lens? What >different zooms are applied here? What is the focal distance? >How near the lens is the tree branch? What are the individual >and collective angular rates of these objects? What are their >angular sizes? Is the camera pointing low in the sky or near the >zenith? Where is the sun in relation to the photographer? How do >these variables stack up against the possibility that >this is a >flock of brightly reflective white birds? Pellicans? You need to make your own study and evaluation of this video, Martin, and draw your own conclusions. However if you haven't seen the Mexican UFO fleets video collection and have not made any research on the extensive Mexican database on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:02:09 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:09:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? - Stevenson >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:28:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >>From: Walt Williams <walt_williams.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:38:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:46:32 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Hydrogen/Oxygen UFO Propulsion? >><snip> >>>Also as most UFOs are said to have high-speed spinning areas >>>and the spinning part could easily generate electricity, the >>>battery would not even be required. >>A buddy up at JPL pointed out to me one day while he and I were >>reviewing some video of an apparently rotating disc, which was >>hovering near some buildings in Mexico City, that the observed >>spinning may be used to spin-stabilize the object while in >>motion. >This probably refers to the August, 1997 UFO video by an anonymous >witness. Said video was examined carefully and found to contain >evidence of a hoax. >See: http://brumac.8k.com/MexCityAug697/MexCtySmearAnalysis.html Hi Walt, Bruce and List, From my reading of some abductee reports - but cannot remember which ones - the spinning areas are not always visible. Plus of course the oxygen generated from the device could be used, in part, for breathing of the ET and/or abductees. It all seems plausible to me coupled with the human damaging effects from close proximatey to the very high rate spinning drive/partial drive. Some saucers also hum quite a lot which could be an artifact of the spinning parts with this humming changing pitch with changes of direction or speeds.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:54:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:11:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Allan >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:22 -1000 >Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:11:40 EDT >>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>>Corso claims he told Thurman of the UFOs he discussed in his >>>>>book and that Thurman nevertheless agreed to write the foreword >>>>>for the Day After Roswell and understood it was about UFOs. It's >>>>>likely that during his employment service for the former Senator >>>>>he discretely divulged some of the projects he worked on despite >>>>>his alleged vow to Lt Gen Trudeau to not go public. Thurman may >>>>>have written the foreward as a favor to a former close advisor >>>>>but once his staffers discovered what was in Corso's book, they >>>>>quickly rescinded permission for the foreword to be used. <snip> >If you read the interview with Michael Lindeman whose URL I >provided above, it's quite clear that Corso claims he told >Thurman the book was about UFOs. So what happened subsequently >was a result of Thurman's staffers withdrawing the preface >rather than Thurman himself denying his approval. Do you really >expect me to believe that in Corso's proposal he describes >Thurman having written a a preface for another book that Corso >was intending on using for the Day After Roswell? That is >inconsistent with what he says in the Lindeman interview. I >think you are clutching at straws in trying to make your case >that Corso can't be trusted because of the Thurman preface issue >I've looked closely at your arguments and have found nothing >compelling in them. Your arguments that Corso is being "less >than honest' are red herrings. You appear to be intent on >shifting attention away from Corso's claims concerning the ET >technology he disseminated into the private sector while working >at the Foreign Technology Department at the Pentagon. Since >that's a position he clearly held, then surely the possibility >that he distributed such technology is the key issue here; >rather than questions over Strom Thurman's foreword; Corso's >promotion to Col in the reserves; a controversial photo in his >book, deferring to Kaufman; etc., all red herrings that get us >nowhere. <snip> For goodness sake, please both of you, at least spell the guy's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Michael Salla - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:19:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Jamieson >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >This field has always been plagued by people telling wild >stories and naive people willing to believe everything they are >told without any confirmed hard evidence. That is one of the >main reasons I left MUFON several years ago. >You mentioned Burisch above. He has been proven to be a fraud by >Royce Myers at UFO Watchdog. Royce has also nailed the lies of a >number of other claimants. George Knapp from KLAS TV in Las >Vegas has also declared Burisch to be a phony. You and Salla >should also look up the UFO UpDates Archive from when Corso's >book came out. Oddly, Peregrine Communications, the publishing >arm of Collins and Doty, still supports Burisch. I read Greg >Bishop's book Project Beta. It gives a good account of the >Bennewitz saga. I have not read the Collins and Doty book. I >would not trust anything in that book to be truth. Even if >supposedly there is a bit of truth mixed in with disinformation >how would anyone know which is which? Remember the tales of the >aviary in that crappy UFO Coverup Live video? >Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, and others have repeatedly pointed >out what is factually wrong with some of the alleged >"whistleblowers" yet Salla takes none of that to heart and just >keeps circling in his pointless circular arguments. >My point here is that in the UFO field all kinds of people come >out with stories. Even if you could prove any of these people >were in positions where they really would have access to the >evidence you have no way of knowing if they are telling truth or >disinformation. Stories are just stories. When I was a kid there >was a show named Naked City, a detective show based in New York >City. It began with the expression "there are 8 million stories >in the naked city". Well there are 10 million stories in the UFO >city. Stories mean nothing but tales unless there is real >evidence gathered and proven to be legitimate from other sources >than the tale teller. Yes, I know Knapp has discovered Burisch's history. I knew he was staging a drama just by seeing his story and how it was being presented. Just so, in the same manner, Wolf's story was plainly phoney (and nuts) to my eyes. Something of a generalized storyline, concerning covert government involvement/knowledge, has developed over the decades. Different people with different agendas (but overall centered, it seems, around creative writing projects) have actually invented for themselves a leading and starring role in that covert world! (Michael Wolf and Dan Burisch, for example.) >Stephen Greer rustled up a bunch of ex-military whistleblowers >for his Disclosure Project but he unfortunately did not vet >those who had dubious tales from those who had strong >backgrounds and who perhaps could lead the way toward some >evidence to confirm their stories. He also diverged into free >energy. He was asking for a congressional investigation but his >sloppiness as mentioned above led to nowhere. You should educate >yourself by looking at the UFO Updates archives of that period. I saw recently where Edgar Mitchell has expressed some complaints about Greer overreaching. That he doesn't want to be associated with Greer's effort. I feel Greer has created blinders by insisting on adhering to his closed ideological system (dissing abduction cases, seeing only lovey dovey aliens, etc.) Plus, I think he may have that bug a lot of ufo investigators have that causes getting excited at startling claims and a numbing of critical thinking centers in the brain. (I'm chosing the medical model as the basis for my hypothesis, not sociological models.) >Mr. Salla says he studies the "whistleblowers" from the >perspective of social science. Yet he seems totally unwilling or >uncapable of beginning to separate truth from fiction, even at >the basic level of whether any of those people are who they are >claiming to be. Where they should be studied is in Contemporary Literature classes focused on creative writing exercises in the sci fi genre. >>>I am feeling a better strategy at this point would be not to >>>waste any more efforts at pouring sense into a black hole. I >>>feel at this point it may be best to just ignore him and move on >>>in our endeavors. We are providing him an audience on this list >>>for his absurdity. I can't tell anyone what to do or not to do >>>but it is obvious that the lack of meaningful dialogue is >>>leading nowhere. >>I don't know, I've sure learned a lot of interesting information >>from reading Stanton Friedman's responses to Michael. And, the >>dialogue is interesting in fleshing out social scientific >>issues, like cultic and closed systems or cognitive dissonance >>experienced by people in group efforts like the ufo field. (It's >>the gullible and non discriminating folks who suffer cognitive >>dissonance.) The social sciences can be an useful tool in >>ufology. Indeed, I recommend highly (to the distress of many >>luminaries here, I'm sure) "Shockingly Close to the Truth!" by >>James Moseley and Karl Pflock for an incredibly educational and >>sociological exam of ufology spanning a few decades. >>That book helps with perspective (mind you, you can't take >>anything Moselely says all that seriously..... Look at how he >>trashes Richard Hall and how his co author doesn't). I don't get >>the feeling that Michael has a real feel for the whole history >>as yet, being fresh to the subject like he reports himself >>being. >Mike, Moseley has his own perspective and his own sense of >humor. I have known Dick Hall for a number of years and I have >always held Mr. Hall's research in the highest regard. I think >Moseley was being disrespectful towards him because Dick is not >his fan. Another reason I like Dick Hall is because he has a >very good perspective of what is wrong with ufology. We have had >talks where we very much agree on those points. Yeah, Richard Hall is pretty sharp. I don't take Moseley's characterization of him seriously. (I take it as entertainment.) I remember badgering Moseley to get up on the stage and speak a few words at our White House Demonstration in '93. He did what I expected, which was provide a sharply critical exam of our doings: "You guys are going to have to do a lot better than this!" (Moments later he was at my hotel room with others, cheering CNN's surprisingly high profile and positive report.) >I am glad you learned a lot from what Stan Friedman and Kevin >Randle pointed out to Mr. Salla. However if you are serious >about ufology you should have already known the phoniness of the >"whistleblowers" mentioned. Oh... like I said above: phonies! >I am not saying to boot him out. I am saying to ignore him >because he just makes his own phony arguments against the facts >that some of the strongest UFO researchers present to him. He >just persists in pointless prose that just circles around and >does not land. It seems a waste of good work to try to point out >anything to Mr. Salla. His list of questions to ask or not ask >was ridiculous. For confirmation I let the famous >"whistleblower" Homer Simpson read them and all he could say was >"Doh!". >I say firmly that Mr. Salla will not be a serious investigator >because he really knows nothing and refuses to even begin to >learn what real investigation entails. He is just a sponge who >absorbs everything he wants to believe without qualifying any of >it. In terms of real investigation he is not yet even a Barney >Fife. Sure, he seems like a polite, nice guy but he is incapable >of really hearing. It doesn't matter anyway. Real whistleblowers won't be approaching UFO investigators/analysts. They'll approach mainstream journalists. The decades long efforts of many ufo investigators is to be admired in many ways. But, breakthroughs (imo) won't be coming from their work. Especially breakthroughs
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Filer's Files #21 - 2005 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:49:46 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:20:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #21 - 2005 - Balaskas >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:42:14 -0400 >Subject: Filer's Files #21 - 2005 >Filer's Files #21 - 2005 >Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >Vice President of Skywatch International >May 18, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com >Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. <snip> >Canada disc photographed >KINGSTON, ONTARIO -- Dirk Vander Ploeg Received a photo of a >definite UFO from Tim in Canada. The photo was taken on December >4, 2004 in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. I have enlarged the >section of the object in the night sky and attempted to brighten >it. I used Adobe Photoshop for all tests regarding the object. A >clear image of a solid object is evident. Is it an >extraterrestrial UFO, I don't know. It is a definitely an >unidentified flying object. More photos at >http://www.ufodigest.com/kingston.html by Dirk Vander Ploeg. >Thanks to Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch- >international.org/ Greetings George! That is not a photo of a "definite UFO" that Dirk got from Tim. Although this "UFO" is definitely "a clear image of a solid object", since this object is not really in the sky, it's cannot be, by definition "an unidentified flying object". What is it then? It is an optical camera reflection of the hot street lamp directly below it and an equal distance directly opposite to the uncropped center of the picture. Another less brighter street lamp to the right created a second fainter "UFO" that is an equal distance to the opposite side of the same center of the picture. How could Dirk, Tim and you miss this other obviously saucer shaped UFO (really another optical camera reflection) in the same picture? I will let Dirk figure out what those other UFO Photos in the sky over Montauk, New York (see his web site) might be. Since the Kingston, Ontario and the Montauk, New York photos are typical snapshots of places we visit (the first is of the Kingston skyline which is centered on the church in the distance and the other two taken by Keith and Elizabeth are of the motel they stayed at), another good reason that these images in the pictures cannot be called UFOs is because they were not noticed at the time the pictures were taken. James Neff of RENSE.COM calls all such UFO images on photos that were not noticed at the time "BLURFOs". Thanks for your reply to my last e-mail. Did Apollo astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell let you know the names of fellow astronauts who told him of their UFO sightings or experiences? Unless we
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:06:03 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee >From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:27:17 -0500 >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>>From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:03:22 -0500 >>>Subject: New Phoenix UFO Video >>>It's possibly a triangle or rectangular craft, rotating counter- >>>clockwise, horizontally, inside a cloud possibly in some type of >>>stealth mode. >Note: Clockwise viewed from below, counterclockwise from above. >>Brian: >If you wish to see a larger version of this video, I just posted >one on my web site. Let me assure you the video is quite real. >However, the object/lights in the video may certainly raise some >questions, as they do seem to move rather unconventionally. The >lights were just as strange to the naked eye, in that the place >in which they reappear certainly left me with the impression >that it was traveling at an incredible speed. >>http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/jeffwilles5-12-2005.wmv >>or >>http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS.html >First of all Rob, your group is to be congratulated for this >video. It's fantastic! I like listening to comments by Jeff et >al as well. >>When I joined this List a couple months back, I did so with the >>intent of soliciting scientific help in the form of instruments >>and expertise. This problem or need has since been satisfied, >>perhaps not quickly enough however, as they were not in place >>for this event. We did have a Cannon XL1 rolling as well as a >>35mm Camera taking 30 sec. exposures at the time, but they were >>focused elsewhere. >Maybe it knew it was testing your guys. How could you know? >>This sighting is a good example of what I consider "missed >>opportunity". While in this instance I happened to take Jeff and >>another gentleman to this site, it could just as easily been a >>team of researchers with the instruments and expertise to obtain >>much more valuable data then a single video clip. In fact, about> >>65 minutes after the video was shot, a closer more interesting >>light was observed, but we had just packed up our equipment. snip >I heard Jeff Willes on C2C with Art Bell last Sunday night and >Jeff explained it perfectly. Your group is watching the ufo hot >spots and last Thurs night you guys hit it correct. Jeff also >mentioned that he has had more daylight sightings than nighttime >ones. They're even more perplexing because you just want to >stare at them and watch what they're going to do next. I have looked at the June 2004 and May 2005 (Willes) videos. In the June 2004 video it looks as if the wavey line of multicolored lights is just barely above the level of the mountain-determined skyline that is barely visible in the video. I don't know what those were. Multicolored flares at a very long distance are a possibility. At a very long distance the fall rate would seem to be slow, just as a 600 mph jet at 36,000 ft seems to "slowly" move along. The triangulation looks similar to what I found for the Phoenix lights of Jan 1998 and the earlier (and more famous) March 13, 1997. (At a great distance the smoke and parachute are too dim to see in the glare of the flare itself.) As I watched the Jeff Willes video I had the following immediate reaction: "I've seen that before." I was startled to see something I had seen in Gulf Breeze, no less! The seeming "saltatory" (jumping) motion of the light(s) appears as a discontinuous motion and raised the question (back in August, 1992 in Gulf Breeze) "How the f---- does it do that??!!!" This Gulf Breeze sighting would have gone down in the records as a truly bizarre UFO sighting if the only information had been the eyeball sighting accompanied by a home video recording (actually two home video type recordings). The mystery was resolved only because we had available the type of device that Rob would love: an f/11, 2000 mm focal length Minolta camera telescope coupled to a sensitive (0.1 lux) B&W surveillance with video recording. This was available because I was with an small instrumented scientific group that was trying to "get the goods" on "Bubba". (Bubba is explained on my web site: http://brumac.8k.com/GulfBreeze/Bubba/GBBUBBA.html However, this "UFO sighting" is not described on the web site and, in fact, has never been published.) We were watching the sky from a parking lot on Pensacola Beach, a peninsula which is about a mile south of Gulf Breeze. The small instrumented group was accompanied by the Gulf Breeze Research Team of about a dozen other witnesses. This was a typical skywatch just after dark and we were scanning the skies looking for anything unusual when suddenly someone spotted a flash of light to the east-northeast over Gulf Breeze. This was quickly followed by another flash, but the location of that next flash was slightly displaced from the first. More flashes followed. We could see a slightly curved line of flashes, each one separated from the previous one and each one turning on just as the previous one went out. And then there was a huge flash of light followed by nothing more. In the home video camera this series of flashes looked as if some object/light was turning on for a couple of seconds and then quickly turning off and then appearing _immediately_ at another location where it flashed again, then went out and immediately appeared at yet anoter location. In other words, it appeared to be discontinuous motion of a lighted object. At the time I said something like "It's jumping from one place to another. Things are supposed to do that!" As I said, if the visual recollections and the home video camera recordings had been the only available information on this "discontinuously-moving light" the sighting would have been recorded as a very unusual UFO sighting. However, when I replayed the videotape of what the telescope "saw" the explanation became clear: during the very brief extrabright flash at the end the lights lit up the AIRPLANE that was throwing out the FLARES!. Thinking about it afterward we figured out what had happened. A rather large 2 engine aircraft (clearly AF aircraft flying in Eglin AFB air space which is east and northeast of Gulf Breeze in the direction we were looking) had thrown out a series of 2 second flares. They threw these flares out every two seconds until the last burst when they threw out an estimated *50* flares at once!!! Because they synchronized the flare ejection rate with the flare duration the lights in the sky appeared to jump because just as one flare went out the next flare would "turn on". Of course, during the 2 second burn time the plane would travel to a new location on its path, so each flare was displaced from the previous flare by some distance (a few hundred feet). This made it appear as if a light was jumping from location to location.... the appearance of discontinuous motion.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:09:31 -0400 Subject: Re: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme - Maccabee >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme >The Future of the Space-Alien Meme >by >Mac Tonnies >http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com >Throughout history, the UFO phenomenon has been one step ahead >of human capability. Our definition of the "other" has been >quietly revised and reinvented in a parade of forms ranging from >faerie folk to phantom airships to ghost rockets to NASA-esque >flying saucers complete with alien "crew." <snip> >If the UFO intelligence has been with the human species since >prehistory, perhaps it's naive to assume the "aliens" will stick >around in their present form once we've achieved their evident >level of sophistication. If we can refrain from destroying >ourselves, it's probable we will develop into a star-faring >civilization. What then? The enigma and mythological luster of >visiting space-aliens will have lost its appeal. If the UFO >intelligence wants to continue interacting with us (for whatever >reasons), it will be forced to adopt a new appearance; it will >have to find a new mythical substrate in which to sow its memes. >That's assuming, of course, that humans a thousand years from >now will still be blinkered by the capacity for belief. If we >evolve into a "posthuman" state, as argued by a growing faction >of thinkers in fields such as artificial intelligence and >genetic engineering, there's no telling for certain how our >perceptions will mutate to accommodate our new abilities. We may >shed the dubious luxury of belief altogether... leaving the >"ufonauts" stranded in the realm from which they originate, >unable to continue their theatrical dialogue. A thousand years from now bodies will be obsolete and only the "mind" will exist, perhaps within a brain that lives in a jar supported by technological devices designed to keep it alive and provide a all sorts of experiences that "feel good" to the mind. I predict that in the future aliens won't look humanoid like the greys. Instead we will see "grey matter" and "flying saucers" will morph into shapes appropriate for containing the "grey matter."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 More 'Fleet' Videos! From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:02:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:14:45 -0400 Subject: More 'Fleet' Videos! Hi All, This is a non-member submission that I am posting for the benefit of all interested parties. Check out the videos that Rich Giordano is recording in the skies over Phoenix, Az. We are dealing with a world wide phenomenon. Best, John Velez ----- From: info.nul Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another fleet video? To Whom It May Concern, My name is Rich Giordano from Phoenix, Arizona. I noticed a few of the UFO fleet videos, one from Mexico and the other from Kaufman County, Tx.. I feel that I captured a very similar event last year and I posted it to my website if you would like to check it out. The descriptions are attached to each of the videos. Visit: www.cnufos.com (videos Page 3) It's the videos posted "30 Or More Objects Appearing And Making Shaped'..... The videos are 17-20th from the top of the page down. Although it is very easy to see the white objects there are darker objects mirroring the white ones. You can also see on a television(computer won't show the extreme details)that there are objects zooming in all directions in the backround. Let me know what you think.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Bob Lazar The Man Behind Area 51 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:55:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:55:49 -0400 Subject: Bob Lazar The Man Behind Area 51 Source: KLAS-TV 8- Las Vegas, Nevada http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3369879&nav=168Xa5j7 May 20, 2005 Bob Lazar: The Man Behind Area 51 George Knapp Investigative Reporter As the Area 51 military base prepares to celebrate its 50th birthday next week, the man who put the base on the public's radar screen says he wants nothing to do with the place. Former government scientist Bob Lazar is the man who claimed to have worked on alien technology at a facility near Groom Lake, but Lazar left town years ago and has kept a low profile ever since. Millions of people have heard Bob Lazar's story, and a lot of them believe it. The poohbahs of ufology think Lazar is a government disinformation agent assigned to spread lies and muddy the waters about what really goes on at Area 51. Still others think he's a profiteer who made it all up because he wanted to cash in. Lazar decided years ago to leave the sniping behind. He left the state, dropped out of sight and started a new life. So where is he and what's he doing? Bob Lazar says, "... given the same information, I'm not sure I'd believe the story either. There's a lot I can't prove. It's what I observed and what happened to me." If Bob Lazar sounds a bit more philosophical these days, maybe it's because of his mellow surroundings. Basically, he moved to the sticks -- an idyllic spot in rural New Mexico with a few dogs, a rescued horse, and his wife Joy. The house at the end of the dirt road is comfortable, but tough to find, which means strangers aren't likely to show up to ask questions about flying saucers. Bob Lazar says, "I really had to cut that loose. I don't answer UFO emails anymore, so if anyone is thinking of emailing me, I don't care if you were abducted. I'm sorry to hear about it. Nor do I believe most of the UFO stories." There was a time, though, when Lazar was at the center of the UFO universe. In 1989, his allegations about ET craft being tested in the Nevada desert exploded into the public consciousness. He said he worked for the Navy at S-4, a hidden hangar complex south of Groom Lake, where nine flying discs of various shapes were stored and tested. Lazar said an anti-matter reactor powered the craft. His drawing of what he called the sport model became the basis for a popular model kit still sold in stores. Many other products were launched too. Tourists arrived outside Groom Lake by the bus full, news teams flew in from all over the world, and the state created the Extraterrestrial Highway to cash in on the furor. Lazar's story was rich with detail. Not only did he see the craft fly, he said, but also he got to peek inside, and that's when it hit him. "They had really small chairs. Why did they need small furniture?" While the public ate it up, the military said nothing, and the UFO hierarchy dismissed it all as a fabrication since Lazar could not verify parts of his background. Lazar was widely ridiculed, especially after he got into trouble for helping a career prostitute. Some of the stories that surfaced about him were downright bizarre. Lazar, in a 1993 interview, said, "The latest one is that you and I and John Lear are all Shriners or 32nd degree Masons, and the saucer story is all a cover. It's really the Shriners who are flying these things." Lazar doesn't miss the UFO craziness at all. Out here, he's almost anonymous. He minces no words about whether he sticks by his story. "I felt privileged to be part of the project and it was fascinating to be in it in any way, shape, or form, but life moves on." And it's a busy life at that. Lazar started United Nuclear, a scientific supply company that sells a long list of stuff online to schools, universities, even to government agencies and labs, things like cloud chambers, radiation detectors, and uranium ore. Lazar says, "We're consultants for a lot of companies. You get the strangest phone calls, even from the Navy Seals, who say, we need a device like this to go overboard and activate. They give specifications and ask can you build it? We fabricate a prototype, get it to them, do a short production run. By that time we get another call from another company to make some bizarre equipment and really have a blast." Speaking of blasts, his online ads selling pieces of uranium ore understandably caught the attention of several government agencies, especially since he also built a 30-foot long particle accelerator behind his house. "Every government agency you could possibly think of has been here and hassled us, and that includes the SWAT team that woke my wife and I up at 6 in the morning and handcuffed us out on the front lawn. After various agencies were assured that Lazar wasn't building atomic weapons out behind the barn, agents calmed down. A few pop by from time to time to see what he's up to. There's one thing they don't talk about. Laser concludes, "To be taken seriously, you can't be known as Bob the UFO guy." We did talk UFOs a bit. Viewers who remember the Lazar story may recall that he claimed the space ships were fueled by something called element 115, which did not exist back in 1989. Recently, however, scientists created 115 in a lab. What does this mean to the Lazar story, and is there a way to prove it? The I-Team will have more on that Friday at 11 p.m. The KLAS-TV online team has created a special webpage about Area 51 with interview clips, maps and photos, and links to other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:23:17 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:59:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:24:17 -0400 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>Usually crosshairs or right angled marks >>- reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right >>into a thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. >The crosshairs seen on the lunar photos and others are marked >on a flat glass plate, called a reseau plate, which is right in >front of the film and pressed against the film by spring >pressure during the exposure. Reseau plates are used on metric >cameras (mapping cameras) and are not reticles or graticules. What are they called then? >Reseau plates are never between lenses! If they were, there >would be no focused image of them on the film. >A digital mapping camera would have the + marks on a glass >plate in front of (and in contact with) the digital sensor >array. This would produce sharp + marks, just as on a film >camera. Makes sense to me, now that you mention it. The astronauts on the Moon were using Hasselblads with this feature. >Personally, I think we're seeing some sort of high-altitude >balloon, or balloons. The soft focus is because the balloon is >much closer to the camera and outside of its field of sharp >focus. We'd need to know the focal length of the lens, lens >aperture, and sensor size to compute what the depth of field >would be. That's as I was suggesting with perhaps parallex accounting for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:41:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:00:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Clark >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:16:20 +0200 >Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:11:52 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>P.S. For obvious reasons, the statistician cannot be a >>'ufologist' by any stretch of the definition. >Can it be an "skeptic"? Or can it be "Michael Salla"?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 UFOs Over Huaral Peru From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:56:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:07:10 -0400 Subject: UFOs Over Huaral Peru INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 20, 2005 Source: Noticiero 90 Segundos / Prensa Latina Date: May 19, 2005 PERU: UFOs OVER HUARAL The closest encounter with alien beings occured on May 6 in Huaral, where an unidentified flying object (UFO) was reported and captured on a videotape belonging to a student from Lima who was visiting the agricultural region known as El Ahorcado, some 115 km from the capital city. The city of Huaral, 97 km from Lima, contains the El Ahorcado, a strange wilderness surrounded by sinous curves, giant, oddly- shaped boulders and home to humble farmers who rise with dawn and go to bed at dusk. This is the location for almost daily sightings of strange vehicles that are completely different from airplanes or helicopters, which generally do not fly over the region. On May 6 at 6:45 p.m., as the sun went down and the sky darkened, physics doctoral student Jason M=E9ndez Cordova, was strolling through "El Ahorcado" in the comapny of his brother and a friend, recording the rocky and strangely-curved landscape on his camcorder, taping images imperceptible to the human eye. At that time, he was surprised to see that his camcorder was picking up images of an impressive light. Their stroll continued for another 20 minutes, they recorded children at play, and the light remained over the whitish rock landscape. Their visit concluded, the sun went down and Jason says that having reached his home in Mangomarca-Zarate, he downlowaded the image and immediately became aware of a strange spot recorded by his camera. Upon checking it and rechecking it, he realized that - unbeknowst to him - the image of an unidentified flying object or flying saucer had been picked up on the tape. "I wasn't aware of the strange craft when shooting the landscape, the huts, the children playing in the dusty streets of the area until I downloaded the video to my PC. That's when I discovered the sighting. It's useless or illogical to believe that in such a vast universe we would be the only living creatures. There are intelligent civilizations on other planets and worlds [that hold] a variety of life forms," said M=E9ndez. Moreover, we have the eyewitness accounts of other locals and residents of the city of Huaral itself, who claim seeing strange craft on a daily basis in the clear skies, both early in the morning and at dusk. Two farmers who work early in the morning, as is their custom, claim having seen an enormous craft that plowed the skies over Huaral and appeared to follow them as they walked. They said it had the shape of a circle or ball. According to the farmer, he left his home on May 2 to round up his animals. As he walked beside a river, he became aware of a cylindrical object that seemed to follow him. Whenever he stopped, the object stopped as well, continuing this behavior until the vehicle became lost among the local boulders. Another resident claims that at around 6 p.m. She has seen a craft that flashed intermittent lights in the heavens, hiding among the rocky mountains and then vanishing at high speed. "It was faster than an airplane, very strange. This is the first time I've seen such a thing, but I have neighbors and my compadre tells me that he has seen similar things at other times," she reports. These eyewitness accounts confirm the existence of strange craft that do not resemble airplanes or helicopters in size, speed or shape; said conventional aircraft almost never fly over this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:24:30 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:08:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Hall >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:16:20 +0200 >Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:11:52 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>I just made inquiries and learned that the actual monitoring and >>data-gathering phase is long since concluded, and they have >>been trying to locate an independent statistician to analyze the >>data. >>P.S. For obvious reasons, the statistician cannot be a >>'ufologist' by any stretch of the definition. >Can it be an "skeptic"? Luis, I studied semantics, among other things. It depends on your definition. Certainly not an outspoken debunker. Obviously they
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:28:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:10:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Velez Hi All, There is something flying around in our skies that isn't 'ours'. Many people all over the globe, myself included, have been recording the phenomena on video and film for much more than a decade. The number of daylight sightings along with the amount of video being recorded only increases as time goes by. Yet we have no more answer today for this mystery than we had fifty years ago. The people of Mexico are face to face with the phenomenon of UFOs in way that is difficult for others to even begin to comprehend. Because of the 'in your face' presence of the OVNIs in Mexico, the people there are forced to question more the motives of these visitors/intruders than their reality. They don't need to be convinced of the OVNIs reality. They have eyes to see. And fortunately, cameras to record the events. Thanks to the recordings, I am going to present a series of webpages that will be highlighting some of the genuinely anomalous behavior the OVNIs exhibit and which has been captured on video. Please, when the pages are eventually put on display, take the time to study this material carefully. There is much more going on in these videos than meets the eye at first. Hopefully, you will all take the time to examine the material for yourself and make up your own mind. Making up your own mind is something that a few other individuals do not trust you to do all on your own. There are several people out there who insist on interpreting the Mexican video recordings for the rest of us. Don't be lazy. Do your own homework and thinking. Make up your own mind. For those who may not know: I have earned a living creating images/graphics for use by publishers and commercial printers. ie; creating graphics for book and magazine covers, album and CD covers etc. I have 16 years experience as a graphic artist and lithographer. I specialized in the creation of graphical imagery by using advanced film and photographic (composite) techniques. I studied film with Kodak specialists and I also earned certification in computer graphics after two years as a full- time student at Long Island University. Computer Graphics Lab/Brooklyn Campus (1994) I bring almost 30 years of graphics/film/video experience to the table. After careful examination of the Mexican videos I can report the following: 1. I found _no_evidence_ that indicated the video images had been artistically or otherwise, created or manipulated. (by using masks, filters, or other mechanical techniques. Believe me, I _know_ what to look for. I could find no evidence (down to the pixel level) of any artist alteration or manipulation. 2. There is no evidence that that the images are, 'projections' of lights/bulbs/lamps, against a pane of glass.' (As has been suggested.) I also could find no evidence for 'drop-ins' or other known image manipulating/creating techniques in any of the clips I have examined. The videos are precisely what they appear to be... the recorded images of objects/'something', that was present in the sky on the day and time the videotape was made. 3. Even under extreme magnification there is no sign of any physical connection between the objects. No visible lines, cables or tethers of any sort. The objects demonstrate an ability to maneuver either in tandem/unison, or independently of one another. I could find no visual evidence of a physical connection between them. 4. The ability of the objects to remain stationary in the sky, as well as in relationship to each other, (in spite of any ambient wind currents) effectively eliminates 'balloons' or 'birds' as an explanation for the images. IMHO, summarily dismissing these unusual objects as mere 'birds' and 'balloons' is intellectually lazy. It is also grasping at straws for a 'ready' explanation. It takes a bit of real work to actually explain the anomaly that is being recorded in the skies over Mexico. What is being committed to video is genuinely challenging and -very- difficult to explain. More, to anyone who has seen the video-clips, 'birds' and 'balloons' are an obviously -wrong- and completely misleading explanation. 5. The objects appear to be self-luminous! They 'give off' light. There is also a wavy, almost 'thermal,' visual effect that can be observed. At times, the brightness of the light coming from the objects is quite striking. These objects glow very brightly even in the strong daylight. 6. Based on some of the maneuvers the objects display in some of the clips, they give the very clear impression that they are under intelligent guidance/control. Their ability to maintain a fixed formation and distance from one another while maneuvering or hovering motionless in the sky, is evidence for intelligent control. I would like to briefly review a couple of the clips in the webpages I will be posting shortly. In the clips and stills that will be displayed will be examples of unusual movement,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Secrecy News -- 05/20/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:20:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:12:36 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/20/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 48 May 20, 2005 ** FULL REPORT ON OVERSEAS BASES RESTORED TO WEB ** NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN ALGERIA ** US-RUSSIA MEMORANDA OF UNDERSTANDING ** COMBAT AIRCRAFT SALES TO SOUTH ASIA (CRS) FULL REPORT ON OVERSEAS BASES RESTORED TO WEB The full text of the report of the Overseas Basing Commission, which was removed from a government web site after the Department of Defense said it contained classified information, is now available on the FAS web site. The partial version of the report described in Secrecy News yesterday included only 92 of the report's 262 pages, and lacked several of the detailed appendices. The full 262 page report was obtained from InsideDefense.com. It is available (at the same URL given yesterday) here: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/obc.pdf According to press accounts, one of the disputed passages that led the Pentagon to demand withdrawal of the report from the web was a reference to ongoing negotiations over U.S. bases in Bulgaria and Romania. "While formal negotiations with either Bulgaria or Romania have not yet been finalized, DOD has funded a small portion of the costs to build facilities at these locations," the Commission report stated on page M5. A footnote indicates that "exact funding data is classified" and did not reveal such data, but the Pentagon reportedly opposed any mention of the matter. Official data on deployment of U.S. military personnel around the world, including Bulgaria and Romania, may be found on a Defense Department web site here: http://www.dior.whs.mil/mmid/military/miltop.htm "The just-released report of the Overseas Basing Commission is a much bolder document than the highly praised 9/11 commission report," according to one op-ed writer's assessment. See "How Not to Move Troops" by Ralph Peters, New York Post, May 6, 2005: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/43474.htm NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN ALGERIA A bibliography of research published by Algerian scientists on nuclear physics, plasma physics, reactor safety and other aspects of nuclear science and technology has recently been prepared by researcher Mark Gorwitz, as part of his ongoing bibliographical investigation into the spread of nuclear knowledge. See "Algerian Nuclear Science Bibliography," May 2005: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/algeria/biblio.pdf Algeria, once suspected by the U.S. of pursuing nuclear weapons with Chinese aid, signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty in 1995. US-RUSSIA MEMORANDA OF UNDERSTANDING Several memoranda of understanding on arms control and bilateral relations signed by the United States and the Russian Federation during the past decade were released by the State Department last month in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from researcher Mike Ravnitzky. "Memorandum of Understanding on Notifications of Missile Launches," December 16, 2000 (partially excised): http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/mou-launch.pdf "Memorandum of Understanding on Warhead Attribution and Heavy Bomber Data," January 3, 1993: http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/mou-warhead.pdf "Memorandum of Understanding Concerning Open Lands," June 17, 1992: http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/mou-open.pdf COMBAT AIRCRAFT SALES TO SOUTH ASIA (CRS) A new report from the Congressional Research Service considers the political, military and economic consequences of resuming sales of combat aircraft to Pakistan and India, as the Bush Administration has proposed. "If completed, such sales would have implications for political- military relations among the United States, Pakistan, and India; for combat aircraft proliferation; and for the U.S. defense industrial base." See "Combat Aircraft Sales to South Asia: Potential Implications," May 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22148.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Michael Salla - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:15:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Salla >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla <snip> >>My point here is that in the UFO field all kinds of people come >>out with stories. Even if you could prove any of these people >>were in positions where they really would have access to the >>evidence you have no way of knowing if they are telling truth or >>disinformation. Stories are just stories. When I was a kid there >>was a show named Naked City, a detective show based in New York >>City. It began with the expression "there are 8 million stories >>in the naked city". Well there are 10 million stories in the UFO >>city. Stories mean nothing but tales unless there is real >>evidence gathered and proven to be legitimate from other sources >>than the tale teller. >Yes, I know Knapp has discovered Burisch's history. I knew he >was staging a drama just by seeing his story and how it was >being presented. >Just so, in the same manner, Wolf's story was plainly phoney >(and nuts) to my eyes. Aloha Mike, let me point out that subjective belief systems are a hazard in the social sciences as well as in the physical sciences. The evidentiary standards one sets for accepting the testimony of a whistleblower vary tremendously which is why this debate over whistleblowers is occuring in the first place. One's position, whether pro or con a particular whistleblower or whistleblowers in general depends on what one finds to be most persuasive. Some individuals will simply look into a whistleblower's eyes, listen to the tone of their voice, observe their physical posture, and based solely on these physical cues, make a judgement call on their integrity and veracity. Sometimes this will be based on little if any hard evidence or documentation. Is an individual reading another's body language, visual and auditory cues being naive, and another demanding hard evidence and documentation being realistic? No, I don't believe either of these possibilities is true. From what I have observed from those resisting the veracity of whistleblower testimonies, that many are very frightened to take on a whistleblower case without hard evidence or documentation. Even if the visual, auditory and other physical cues point to someone telling the truth, they will demand more evidence. Even if there is some evidence in the form of corroborating witnesses and photos, this will be insufficient. In the case of Burisch and Wolf, both were interviewed by credible researchers. Bill Hamilton has been researching the Burisch case for sometime and believes he is credible. Bill more than anyone else is the pioneer in the Burisch case, physically interviewed Burisch, dealt with his handlers in the covert program Burisch works in, verified Burisch's credentials, interviewed family members, etc. I think it's pretty hazardous to dismiss all that simply because George Knapp doesn't sign on. I have tremendous respect for George Knapp and his investigative skills in ferreting out informatiion to support the Lazar case. However, I don't accept Knapp's assessment on the Burisch case. As for Michael Wolf, you say he was plainly phoney. Well that's your subjective reaction to the Wolf material. Others investigated Wolf seriously. By a 'serious investigation' I mean actually visiting him, seeing the available documents in his apartment, looking him in the eye, hearing the tone of his voice, assessing his body language, etc. You might dismiss these things as insufficient. In that case I think you are simply wrong. People are much sharper than you give them credit for in being able to make a good judgement call by simply reading these physical cues. Stan Friedman did none of these things. His investigation of Wolf was incomplete and based solely on what he could find through documentation and making a few phone calls. Wolf invited Stan to visit him in Connecticut and check out his documents. That in my view is really an incomplete investigation. Stan's research is insufficient to dismiss the Wolf testimony since others have done more research Wolf and found him to be credible. Your own reaction is really typical of those not willing to explore the veracity of Wolf's claims simply because they seemed too 'wild'. I spoke on the phone yesterday with Stephen Geller who conducted another independent investigation of the Wolf case. Over the period of 18 months, Geller spoke to Wolf every other night on the phone for an hour or more discussing different aspects of his case. Much of Wolf's information impressed Geller as accurate in terms of the literary world in which Geller moved. Geller is a screenwriter and is an Associate Professor at Boston University and Director for their Screenwriting program, so he is someone with tremendous experience in the literary world. He checked out Wolf's claim, for example, that he knew Frederico Fellini, and found out that Wolf was a friend of Fellini and did appear in one of Fellini's movies. Geller also visited Wolf in Connecticut to get more information about him and to check out his documents. These impressed Geller in terms of their scope and implications. How could someone assess Wolf's case without having checking out his documents? Geller also checked out Wolf's physical cues and body language and found him to be credible. Geller concluded that Wolf was telling the truth. I think that simply saying Geller was another investigator, like Paola Harris, Jim Courant, Michael Hesseman that fell for Wolf 'wild tale' is insufficient. These people all have good street sense and don't just jump on someone's bandwagon simply because they are telling wild tales. >Something of a generalized storyline, concerning covert >government involvement/knowledge, has developed over the >decades. Different people with different agendas (but overall >centered, it seems, around creative writing projects) have >actually invented for themselves a leading and starring role in >that covert world! (Michael Wolf and Dan Burisch, for example.) There is much more to these whistleblowers than simply developing creative writing projects. They have been investigated thoroughly by a number of credible researchers who accept their cases. I think you and others on the forum should not jump to conclusions based on incomplete investigations or your own biases. >>Stephen Greer rustled up a bunch of ex-military whistleblowers >>for his Disclosure Project but he unfortunately did not vet >>those who had dubious tales from those who had strong >>backgrounds and who perhaps could lead the way toward some >>evidence to confirm their stories. He also diverged into free >>energy. He was asking for a congressional investigation but his >>sloppiness as mentioned above led to nowhere. You should educate >>yourself by looking at the UFO Updates archives of that period. >I saw recently where Edgar Mitchell has expressed some >complaints about Greer overreaching. That he doesn't want to be >associated with Greer's effort. >I feel Greer has created blinders by insisting on adhering to >his closed ideological system (dissing abduction cases, seeing >only lovey dovey aliens, etc.) Plus, I think he may have that >bug a lot of ufo investigators have that causes getting excited >at startling claims and a numbing of critical thinking centers >in the brain. (I'm chosing the medical model as the basis for my >hypothesis, not sociological models.) Greer may have screened out the negative ET evidence from some whistleblowers such as Clifford Stone, but overall Greer did a tremendous job in amassing a large collection of whistleblowers to be heard in the one forum. I think many on this forum do not appreciate the significance of Greer's organizational achievement and take too many cheap shots at someone who has done more to further the field of UFO research than anyone else since that late Donald Keyhoe. Greer's organizational skills are first class and while one may differ over some aspects of his screening process, his achievement was to bring into the UFO arena a fresh cadre of thinkers who would think outside the box established by veteran UFO researchers. Greer's efforts were instrumental in my own entry into this field and I'm only now beginning to appreciate the full significance of the whistleblowers he worked with. Greer correctly has focused the attention of the public on 'lies on the ground', rather than 'lights in the sky'. Greer's work is in my view the underpinning upon which 'exopolitics' is based. While Greer did not coin the term, I think he is most responsible for making exopolitics a credible new field in political science. >>Mr. Salla says he studies the "whistleblowers" from the >>perspective of social science. Yet he seems totally unwilling or >>uncapable of beginning to separate truth from fiction, even at >>the basic level of whether any of those people are who they are >>claiming to be. >Where they should be studied is in Contemporary Literature >classes focused on creative writing exercises in the sci fi >genre. These are nothing more than your own biases. There's nothing you have specifically mentioned to dismiss these whistleblowers. Just because their stories appear 'wild' from your perspective, that doesn't make them untrue. <snip> >>Mike, Moseley has his own perspective and his own sense of >>humor. I have known Dick Hall for a number of years and I have >>always held Mr. Hall's research in the highest regard. I think >>Moseley was being disrespectful towards him because Dick is not >>his fan. Another reason I like Dick Hall is because he has a >>very good perspective of what is wrong with ufology. We have had >>talks where we very much agree on those points. >Yeah, Richard Hall is pretty sharp. I don't take Moseley's >characterization of him seriously. (I take it as entertainment.) >I remember badgering Moseley to get up on the stage and speak a >few words at our White House Demonstration in '93. He did what I >expected, which was provide a sharply critical exam of our >doings: "You guys are going to have to do a lot better than >this!" (Moments later he was at my hotel room with others, >cheering CNN's surprisingly high profile and positive report.) >>I am glad you learned a lot from what Stan Friedman and Kevin >>Randle pointed out to Mr. Salla. However if you are serious >>about ufology you should have already known the phoniness of the >>"whistleblowers" mentioned. >Oh... like I said above: phonies! This is nothing but the indulgence of your subjective biases to dismiss whistleblower testimonies that have been investigated by competent researchers, and found to have merit. Science is based on much more than systematically applying one's bias to a whole body of evidence such as whistleblowers. >>I am not saying to boot him out. I am saying to ignore him >>because he just makes his own phony arguments against the facts >>that some of the strongest UFO researchers present to him. He >>just persists in pointless prose that just circles around and >>does not land. It seems a waste of good work to try to point out >>anything to Mr. Salla. His list of questions to ask or not ask >>was ridiculous. For confirmation I let the famous >>"whistleblower" Homer Simpson read them and all he could say was >>"Doh!". >>I say firmly that Mr. Salla will not be a serious investigator >>because he really knows nothing and refuses to even begin to >>learn what real investigation entails. He is just a sponge who >>absorbs everything he wants to believe without qualifying any of >>it. In terms of real investigation he is not yet even a Barney >>Fife. Sure, he seems like a polite, nice guy but he is incapable >>of really hearing. >It doesn't matter anyway. Real whistleblowers won't be >approaching UFO investigators/analysts. They'll approach >mainstream journalists. The decades long efforts of many ufo >investigators is to be admired in many ways. But, breakthroughs >(imo) won't be coming from their work. Especially breakthroughs >engineered by whistleblowers. If anyone really has an awesome >inside job involving aliens and all that, would they go to a ufo >investigator or a major news outlet if they really desired to >blow that whistle? Why don't you take a look at Terry Hansen's book, The Missing Times, to get a better appreciation of what the mainstream media is capable of. As for 'real whistleblowers' approaching mainstream journalists rather than UFO investigators, I think these are judgement calls that a whistleblower makes. In some cases whistleblowers such as Lazar and Corso do approach mainstream media and get their stories out. Others such as Burisch and Wolf approach UFO researchers. Why, well humans are complex and whistleblowers are very different in terms of how they view the mass media. Finally, since you gentlemen are referring to me in this thread it would be useful if you got the title right. I have a PhD in Government which you can verify
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:51:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:17:21 -0400 Subject: Re: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme - Dickenson >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: The Future of the Space-Alien Meme >A thousand years from now bodies will be obsolete and only the >"mind" will exist, perhaps within a brain that lives in a jar >supported by technological devices designed to keep it alive and >provide a all sorts of experiences that "feel good" to the mind. Bruce, "You" and "me" are patterns of energy existing inside (organic) brain inside a skull, cut off from all `reality' except by reception of photons from outside. Is it too much to accept that others could have made the transition to `pure' energy - thus enabling them to appear as they wish to us primitives? Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Adams From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:16:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:22:33 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Adams >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:39 -0400 >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:27:17 -0500 >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>>>From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:03:22 -0500 >>>>Subject: New Phoenix UFO Video snip >>>Brian: >>If you wish to see a larger version of this video, I just posted >>one on my web site. Let me assure you the video is quite real. >>However, the object/lights in the video may certainly raise some >>questions, as they do seem to move rather unconventionally. The >>lights were just as strange to the naked eye, in that the place >>in which they reappear certainly left me with the impression >>that it was traveling at an incredible speed. >>>http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/jeffwilles5-12-2005.wmv >>>or >>>http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS.html <snip> >As I said, if the visual recollections and the home video camera >recordings had been the only available information on this >"discontinuously-moving light" the sighting would have been >recorded as a very unusual UFO sighting. >However, when I replayed the videotape of what the telescope >"saw" the explanation became clear: during the very brief >extrabright flash at the end the lights lit up the AIRPLANE that >was throwing out the FLARES!. >Thinking about it afterward we figured out what had happened. A >rather large 2 engine aircraft (clearly AF aircraft flying in >Eglin AFB air space which is east and northeast of Gulf Breeze >in the direction we were looking) had thrown out a series of 2 >second flares. They threw these flares out every two seconds >until the last burst when they threw out an estimated *50* >flares at once!!! Because they synchronized the flare ejection >rate with the flare duration the lights in the sky appeared to >jump because just as one flare went out the next flare would >"turn on". Of course, during the 2 second burn time the plane >would travel to a new location on its path, so each flare was >displaced from the previous flare by some distance (a few >hundred feet). This made it appear as if a light was jumping >from location to location.... the appearance of discontinuous >motion. >I suggest that the Willes video shows the same thing: flares >being ejected one after another from a plane that was so far >away as to be undetectable, perhaps as a result of the cloud in >the sky. Hi Bruce. Thanks for your commentary. Watching the video clip no "flash" was apparent but the skywatch group members who were there either Jeff or Rob will have to comment on whether this happened that evening or not. Although Jeff never mentioned it during the C2C interview and he did mention that more details are seen in the original video not discernable on the compressed video clip of the light movement and possibly some kind of shape in the cloud deck outlined by the lights on its apex. The Phoenix ufo skywatchers group needs to followup by contacting the Luke AFB and the airport regarding military flights over the area that evening. It could be some mil
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - DeGraf From: Jason DeGraf <drwho_who.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:50:17 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - DeGraf The following page has a video of a dramatic flare-drop from a military cargo plane: http://www.livingstonemusic.net/angeldecoy.htm The arc of the lights as they fall clearly resemble what's in the Willes Video. Not only that, but the duration of the 'lights' last practically the same amount of time, 6-7 seconds. I have to say what Willes shot is terrestrial and without better images and video, it would be hard to claim otherwise. The Flares are called Angel Flares, and are used as a decoy to defend against heat seeking missles.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:32:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:52:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:28:22 -0400 >Subject: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >There is something flying around in our skies that isn't 'ours'. >Many people all over the globe, myself included, have been >recording the phenomena on video and film for much more than a >decade. The number of daylight sightings along with the amount >of video being recorded only increases as time goes by. Yet we >have no more answer today for this mystery than we had fifty >years ago. <snip> Go Mexico! Show a starch your nasally elevated neighbors to the north can't find with a flashlight in both hands. Go India! Embrace a future bearing down on all of us like a train, and give us a hint on how to get on. We don't have the institutional courage! Go Japan, we don't have the cherry blossoms and we're overdrawn at the conviction bank! Go China, help to make our times a little _less_ interesting. ...and go John Velez... go with the wind beneath formidable wings, and to further piss-off a deserving minority let me say _again_ how wrong I was back in the day..... <g>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg"<alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:43:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:53:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Lehmberg >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:41:26 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:16:20 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:11:52 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >>>P.S. For obvious reasons, the statistician cannot be a >>>'ufologist' by any stretch of the definition. >>Can it be an "skeptic"? >Or can it be "Michael Salla"?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Astronaut Says Some Events Are Unexplainable From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:01:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:01:03 -0400 Subject: Astronaut Says Some Events Are Unexplainable Source: The Gainesville Sun - Gainesville, Florida http://tinyurl.com/78fnj May 20 2005 Astronaut says some events are unexplainable By Brittany Rajchel Special To The Sun The sixth man to walk on the moon spoke about his experience with unexplainable phenomena Thursday to a skeptical audience of about 100 scientists. Edgar Mitchell, an astronaut on Apollo 14, talked of the experiences that led him to research the unexplainable at the 24th annual meeting of the Society for Scientific Exploration at the Best Western Gateway Grand Hotel in Gainesville. "It isn't science, but personal experience, that stimulates you to do good science," he said. Mitchell, who holds a doctorate in aeronautics and astronautics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, worked on the first extended research trip to the moon in 1971. He founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences to sponsor the study of unconventional scientific models, such as intuition and feeling, and he was inducted into the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998. His interest in the unexplainable began on his way back to Earth aboard Apollo 14. He gazed out the window and realized he was connected to the stars, his colleagues and the planet through his own molecules, he said. "You could see the Earth, the moon and the stars with each rotation of the spacecraft," Mitchell said. "The stars were literally brighter for me. It was an awesome, awe-inspiring view of the heavens." He could not find scientific literature on his experience, and he had to delve into Sanskrit literature to define his personal moment, inspiring him to begin scientific research on unexplainable occurrences. Further incidents spiked his interest in topics that traditional science labeled as hoaxes. Mitchell said a telepathic partner "teleported" tie pins from a jewelry box Mitchell had lost years before, and a Tibetan healer cured his mother's glaucoma. As a scientist, he had a hard time believing it, he said, but he could not deny it either. "I was used to looking at science in theory and in abstract, not in what I was experiencing personally," he said. Further research showed him that all cultures have unexplainable occurrences, but most have been attributed to religion instead of science, causing confusion and misunderstanding, he said. Audience members were willing to acknowledge Mitchell's controversial opinion. Granted, his anomalies are hard to understand," said Marilyn Schmidt, an SSE member from San Diego. "If we understood them, we wouldn't be here. Trying to understand them gives us a way to look at life's meaning and go into deeper issues." SSE wants to provide a forum for discussions as controversial as Mitchell's experiences, said Thomas Dykstra, society secretary and host of the meeting. Still, Mitchell's speech is not to be taken as fact, Dykstra said. "Scientists normally come up with reasons to deny or ignore Mitchell's experiences," he said. "In this setting, we're
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:17:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:46:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:30:58 +0000 >Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:32:32 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:13:00 +0000 >>Subject: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video ><snip> >>The Mexican "UFO fleets" were strongly advocated as strange >>because the objects supposedly kept rigid formation and _didn't_ >>mill about like birds. This led to much talk of balloons and >>string. Now the objects in this video plainly _do_ mill about. >>Like birds, just as the photographer says. So "same behaviour, >>same movement"? How can that be? "Perfect synchronised >>formation"? Not the video I'm watching. >>What exactly are these "characteristics and parameters" you >>studied, Santiago? What is the FOV of the camera lens? What >>different zooms are applied here? What is the focal distance? >>How near the lens is the tree branch? What are the individual >>and collective angular rates of these objects? What are their >>angular sizes? Is the camera pointing low in the sky or near the >>zenith? Where is the sun in relation to the photographer? How do >>these variables stack up against the possibility that this is a >>flock of brightly reflective white birds? >Pellicans? You need to make your own study and evaluation of >this video, Martin, and draw your own conclusions. However if >you haven't seen the Mexican UFO fleets video collection and >have not made any research on the extensive Mexican database on >this phenomena it's clear you simply don't understand what I'm >talking about. Oh dear Santiago What an utterly bankrupt response! Of course I don't know what you're talking about because you said nothing. That is why I asked you to elaborate. And now, what is anyone to infer from your vacant and evasive reply, but that you have absolutely nothing to say? Your reflex 'pelicanist' jibe is pathetic and so far of the mark it is laughable, as a number of "real" so-called pelicanists with whom I have had very lively and _very_detailed_ arguments over cases that I regard as significant would tell you. It seems to me that you have no understanding of the need to address basic physical-optical and geometrical-optical questions in such a case, and if you wished to send out a signal to anyone
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:20:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:48:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:28:22 -0400 >Subject: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >Hopefully, you >will all take the time to examine the material for yourself and >make up your own mind. Making up your own mind is something that >a few other individuals do not trust you to do all on your own. >There are several people out there who insist on interpreting >the Mexican video recordings for the rest of us. >Don't be lazy. Do your own homework and thinking. Make up your >own mind. Yes, do not let others think for you. Do not be influenced by what others say they are ("alien spacecraft" or "alien object"). Keep your mind open but don't let your brain fall out. >4. The ability of the objects to remain stationary in the sky, >as well as in relationship to each other, (in spite of any >ambient wind currents) effectively eliminates 'balloons' or >'birds' as an explanation for the images. I thought I saw some movement. Well, there are so MANY "fleet" videos coming out and we are treating them en masse, then we can say some look like they are still and some are moving. >IMHO, summarily dismissing these unusual objects as mere 'birds' >and 'balloons' is intellectually lazy. If it looks like a duck..... >It is also grasping at straws for a 'ready' explanation. Actually, its saving time for meaningful work rather than trying to stop the latest "fad". >It takes a bit of real work to >actually explain the anomaly that is being recorded in the skies >over Mexico. Too bad y'all didn't done that before releasing them. >What is being committed to video is genuinely >challenging and -very- difficult to explain. More, to anyone who >has seen the video-clips, 'birds' and 'balloons' are an >obviously -wrong- and completely misleading explanation. Says you. >6. Based on some of the maneuvers the objects display in some of >the clips, they give the very clear impression that they are >under intelligent guidance/control. Their ability to maintain a >fixed formation and distance from one another while maneuvering >or hovering motionless in the sky, is evidence for intelligent >control. Birds are intelligent. A wind current can make a balloon do an "apparent" intelligent manuever.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: More 'Fleet' Videos! - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:01:33 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:50:01 -0400 Subject: Re: More 'Fleet' Videos! - Yturria From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: More 'Fleet' Videos! >Hi All, >This is a non-member submission that I am posting for >the benefit of all interested parties. Check out the >videos that Rich Giordano is recording in the skies >over Phoenix, Az. >We are dealing with a world wide phenomenon. Hello John, I also received the message from Rich and I'm pleased he is sharing his experience and video of the December 12, 2004 sighting over Phoenix AZ. I found Rich's sighting is another important evidence that adds to the vast dossier of cases reported on the UFO fleet phenomena and as you said is taking place in other countries too not just Mexico. I have followed Rich's case for sometime and I must say that Rich Giordano is a distinguished experiencer/skywatcher from Phoenix who has gathered a vast amount of experiences and videos, result of many hours of dedicated effort in searching the skies for the always exciting sighting. The morning of December 12, 2004 was a special one for Rich and he witnessed a UFO flotilla of about 30 objects in the sky, a 8 minutes sighting at broad daylight that he managed to get on tape. I recognize Rich's honesty in reporting this sighting describing in his own words his feelings and convictions. I will allow me to quote some of his words regarding his December 12, 2004 UFO flotilla sighting: Rich Giordano: " I know a few of you may find this sighting hard to believe and I know why you would. These objects appeared out of nowhere. I watched them appear right before my eyes. If it were balloons I would have seen the climb in altitude and scatter. Some of these these objects did their own thing, moved in a different direction. " The objects present the classic shape of the white sphere UFOs and their formation and behavior are consistent with those flotllas videotaped in Mexico. How important to Ufology is the colaboration of these skywatchers / videographers like Rich Giordano who provide their valuable experience and evidences to the study and research of the UFO phenomena. We hope Rich's colaboration sharing his December 12, 2004 UFO fleet sighting will motivate other witnesses to come forward
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 20 Re: Michael Salla - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:03:57 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:53:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Miller >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla ><snip> >Some individuals will simply look into a whistleblower's >eyes, listen to the tone of their voice, observe their >physical posture, and based solely on these physical cues, >make a judgement call on their integrity and veracity. <snip> >Even if the visual, auditory and other physical cues point to >someone telling the truth, they will demand more evidence. Michael et al, I'm staggered that this point has taken so long to come up in this debate, particularly when you consider that Dr. Salla's principle protaganist is a detective. C'mon Josh, you're not going to tell me that even at an intuitive level, you don't rely on "a gut feeling" based on signals picked up even sub concsiously. You won't base a case on it but it might swing whether someone remains for further questioning or is shown the door instead. Far more more affective and reliable than a lie detector test, while some body actions can be controlled when lying, others, and in particular the eyes, cannot. Any decent poker player here on this list will confirm this. We had enormous fun during the recent British general election, watching Peter Collett's analysis of what our politicians were _really_saying as he stripped them down to the bare bones. There is no question that when applied by an expert, it is a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:09:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:11:05 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Maccabee >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:10:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:28:19 -0400 >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>Beside hours of videotape they also got the world's first(?) >>infrared photos and a diffraction grating - spectrum - photo. >In "Project Identification" Plate 27, there is an image dated >March 27, 1973, "Time exposure of approximately 2 minutes taken >by Gary Sutton at Millers High Point, Piedmont Mo using a Petri >35 mm camera loaded with infrared sensitive film and a lens of >400 mm folcal length." >Also, even though he does not show the grating in a plate in his >1981 book, he says he did take a diffraction grating photo. >This is on pg 194. >" ...I had procured blazed transmission diffraction gratings to >place in front of the camera lens, even when the camera was >attached to the Celestron telescope. The more efficient >gratings would enhance my chances of capturing the color >spectrum of a UFO on film." >Date December 13, 1974: >"When the slide film was developed, this Class B sighting >exhibtied a color spectrum". > I stand corrected. I had long ago forgotten about Project Identification, which I read nearly 30 years ago. What I do recall from that is the weird image he got when he photographed what appeared to be a single, rather dim ball of light that went past the area where he had his camera. The image shows jiggly, wiggly streaks of light that seem to bear little if any resemblance to what he saw. >So refreshing to re-read Dr. Rutledge's great UFO field >research! What a guy! >Anyone who knows his address, it would be nice to know if he >still has the spectrum photo and if he can scan it in or provide >it to others for use? >Yes, this spectrum data should be invaluable in figuring >out/identifying UFOs. Sadly, Rutledge did not discuss USING the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:04:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:27:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Velez >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:20:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:28:22 -0400 >>Subject: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >>Hopefully, you >>will all take the time to examine the material for yourself and >>make up your own mind. Making up your own mind is something that >>a few other individuals do not trust you to do all on your own. >>There are several people out there who insist on interpreting >>the Mexican video recordings for the rest of us. >>Don't be lazy. Do your own homework and thinking. Make up your >>own mind. >Yes, do not let others think for you. Do not be influenced by >what others say they are ("alien spacecraft" or "alien object"). >Keep your mind open but don't let your brain fall out. Hello Smith, You expose your true colors with each an every response to me. I'm certain if I let you talk long enough, I won't have to say bloody thing. You'll dispatch yourself quicker and better than I ever could! <LOL> Mr. Smith, nowhere in any of my posts have I referred to the objects in the Mexican videos as "alien spacecraft" or "alien objects." I very strongly resent your making up lies, complete fabrications, and then attempting to attribute them to me. The ease with which you put words into my mouth just so you can hopefully raise the value of your own stock is pathetic. Is this how you operate? Is this the level you deal on, Mr. Smith? Man, I feel so sorry for you. Not much to be said for your people skills. If you wish to debate me or take me on in public, at least have the courtesy of addressing something I actually said. And not simply concocting any old crap you want to and leaving it on my doorstep. How dare you? Balls! What color is the sky in -your- world that you thought I'd allow such blatant lies to stand unchallenged? Wake up and smell the coffee Smith. I'll take you down at the ankles each every time you try some nonsense like this with me. >>4. The ability of the objects to remain stationary in the sky, >>as well as in relationship to each other, (in spite of any >>ambient wind currents) effectively eliminates 'balloons' or >>'birds' as an explanation for the images. >I thought I saw some movement. Well, there are so MANY "fleet" >videos coming out and we are treating them en masse, then we can >say some look like they are still and some are moving. >>IMHO, summarily dismissing these unusual objects as mere 'birds' >>and 'balloons' is intellectually lazy. >If it looks like a duck..... >>It is also grasping at straws for a 'ready' explanation. >Actually, its saving time for meaningful work rather than trying >to stop the latest "fad". >>It takes a bit of real work to >>actually explain the anomaly that is being recorded in the skies >>over Mexico. >Too bad y'all didn't done that before releasing them. >>What is being committed to video is genuinely >>challenging and -very- difficult to explain. More, to anyone who >>has seen the video-clips, 'birds' and 'balloons' are an >>obviously -wrong- and completely misleading explanation. >Says you. >>6. Based on some of the maneuvers the objects display in some of >>the clips, they give the very clear impression that they are >>under intelligent guidance/control. Their ability to maintain a >>fixed formation and distance from one another while maneuvering >>or hovering motionless in the sky, is evidence for intelligent >>control. >Birds are intelligent. A wind current can make a balloon do an >"apparent" intelligent manuever. >Good luck to you Mr. Velez and your compatriots. >I am sure you will get lots of hits and publicity and the public >will eat it up! Bread and circuses. <LOL> Funny how _you're_ the one thinking in terms of "getting attention" as being the object of it all. Is that what it's all about for you James? Getting attention? Why did you choose that particular motive to project on us? You see, "we" (me and my "compatriots" as you call us,) are trying to _raise_the_public_awareness_ about an issue we think is important and even urgent. An issue we think everybody needs to know about. An issue we think everybody has a right to know about. You on the other hand demonstrate a genuine need to control what others think. And as evidenced by your acidic and always condescending and disrespectful responses to everyone connected to this case, you have apparently suffer from a superiority complex that allows you to talk down to others around you. See, now that's the kind of thing that can be dealt with effectively in psychological counselling. You really should look into it. Nothing to be ashamed of. We all need a little help from time to time. No, James. We are, none of us, (myself and my Latino compatriots,) psychologically or emotionally damaged. We are grown men who you should be treating with more respect. Although, judging by your choice of motives to 'project' on us, it strongly suggests that it is _you_ who need to look into your 'real' motives. You know, find out what your real needs are. The sad part is, if you weren't so busy being sarcastic and trying to belittle and demean all of us, we could actually be communicating with each other. You need to know something Mr. Smith... You're talking to a witness, James. I'm not out here participating in an 'intellectual circle-jerk' such as yourself and several of your "compatriots" indulge in. I'm your worst nightmare, debunker. I was wide awake and alert and accompanied by -other reputable witnesses- who have corroborated my reports. You can spit your venom at me personally as you do, or hurl your little insults and Mickey Mouse 'theories' at me until hell freezes over. It won't change a thing about a reality that you show no psychological preparedness for. Tend to "the log in your own eye," James. Leave us to tend to the specks in ours. Before I have posted anything, you have already blown it all off and accuse us of doing it for "attention." I'm not permitted to use the kind of language 'on- List' I'd need to describe what I think of that, and you. Go in peace. But know this; I will not dignify another of your nasty, condescending tirades to me on this List with any further responses. Rant on all you want to. No skin off my nose. I believe we're all done here Mr. Smith. You go your way and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 UFOs And ETs In Mongolia? From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:47:47 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:39:51 -0400 Subject: UFOs And ETs In Mongolia? I would like to share with all of you this interesting story sent to me by my dear friend researcher/skywatcher Kathy Adelaide from Australia, who is making a research trip through far lands where she has found interesting reports like this one: ----- Hello Santiago, I am here in Mongolia. Have been for the last 3 days in the Gobi desert, have found out info regarding 'people from other worlds' landing, well, not quite landing, just hovering a couple of meters from the ground. I asked the guide about lights in the sky, she didn't know what I was on about, asked her if she had heard of OVNI's, "No." Asked if she heard about UFOs... "No."... when I showed her my pics, she said "Oh, you mean people who visit here from other worlds?" Bingo! You have to remember Santiago, that in the Gobi we were cut off from anyone, no cell-phones worked, only one phone from the camp. People live off the land and rely on camel and goats for food. These people reported seeing a large plate-type craft hover and they could see 'people' that didn't look like us. They were very tall, bronze and shiney. The said they only make themselves visible to people with higher thinking, even shepherds tending their sheep at night have seen such things. It is entrenched in their belief system that they know of other people from other worlds. These people have not seen TV or glossy UFO mags, so where are they getting these brilliant reports from? Only from above. I have alos taken some pics of me interviewing people. These are a very nomadic people. Here in Ullambaata, capitol of Mongolia, there have also been reports of seeing tall bronze people, not from here, with long arms and very long legs. These also were seen on a plate-type craft that just hovered off the ground..... Again they said that they only show themselves to certain type of people with higher thinking. It seems that you don't have to be intelligent or have a college degree, one just has to be aware and be on the right-thinking frequency. Will be in Beijing for the next 3 days... they have seen things also. All for now. Kathy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:57:17 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:43:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:17:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:30:58 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video <snip> >>Pelicans? You need to make your own study and evaluation of >>this video, Martin, and draw your own conclusions. However if >>you haven't seen the Mexican UFO fleets video collection and >>have not made any research on the extensive Mexican database on >>this phenomena it's clear you simply don't understand what I'm >>talking about. >Oh dear Santiago >What an utterly bankrupt response! Of course I don't know what >you're talking about because you said nothing. That is why I >asked you to elaborate. And now, what is anyone to infer from >your vacant and evasive reply, but that you have absolutely >nothing to say? >Your reflex 'pelicanist' jibe is pathetic and so far of the mark >it is laughable, as a number of "real" so-called pelicanists >with whom I have had very lively and _very_detailed_ arguments >over cases that I regard as significant would tell you. >It seems to me that you have no understanding of the need to >address basic physical-optical and geometrical-optical questions >in such a case, and if you wished to send out a signal to anyone >with sense that your case for these "global UFO fleets" is empty >of science or sense then you could do no better than this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Lazar Behind Element 115 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:51:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:51:31 -0400 Subject: Lazar Behind Element 115 Source: KLAS-TV 8 - Las Vegas Nevada http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3373771&nav=168Xa85s May 21, 2005 [Images & Video at site] Bob Lazar: The Man Behind Element 115 George Knapp Investigative Reporter How does this sound - a conversion kit that would allow your car to run on clean, plentiful hydrogen? It's in the works in New Mexico, and the name of the guy who is building it may ring a bell. He's Bob Lazar, and 16 years ago he told the I-Team's George Knapp about Area 51 and said scientists there were studying UFOs. He dropped out of sight, but George caught up with him. As a teenager, Bob Lazar built a jet-powered bicycle, then a jet Honda, then a jet dragster. These day's he's focused on a different propulsion system. Bob Lazar, former government scientist, said, "Every vehicle we have here is powered by hydrogen." At his new home in rural New Mexico, Lazar has been working on a conversion kit that will turn any car into a hydrogen hybrid. His two vehicles have already been converted and can travel up to 450 miles on hydrogen, then switch automatically back to gasoline. Lazar wants to take it a step further. Lazar said, "Every major car company is working on a hydrogen system, but the only difference is, they want to sell you a new hydrogen car and sell you hydrogen gas at hydrogen gas stations. Basically, we're making a conversion kit you can use in your own car and instead of buying hydrogen from someone else, you make it." He makes hydrogen using water and a solar powered generator. But again, with a Lazar twist. "It's the only particle accelerator on the block, I guarantee ya." The small lab behind his home has a 30-foot long particle accelerator he built from scratch. He uses it to produce metal hydrides, which absorb hydrogen gas like a sponge and make it much safer to use as a fuel. Lazar says, "You can do that with ordinary metal hydrides but we found a way to manipulate the atomic structure to change things. It's worked fantastically." George Knapp teases, "It almost sounds like you're a real scientist." Lazar replies, "That's what they tell me." It's an inside joke based on the ridicule Lazar has faced ever since he went public in 1989 with his claims that he worked on flying saucers in the Nevada desert. The military refused to answer any questions about Lazar or his claims, nor could we verify much of anything about his life. Lazar told us he previously worked at Los Alamos National Lab. The lab repeatedly denied it, even after we found Lazar's name in the lab phone book. His critics say that since he can't prove he ever earned a college degree, he can't be a real scientist, even if he can build jet engines, hydrogen systems and particle accelerators. Is there a way to prove any part of his story? Maybe. In 1989, Lazar claimed the ET saucers he worked on could produce their own gravity. This propulsion was made possible by a superheavy substance Lazar called Element 115. What is the problem with this story? Element 115 did not exist in 1989. Now, however, it does. Scientists at the Lawrence Livermore Lab created a miniscule amount of 115 last year. A profound development, but the material decayed almost instantly. So where did the government get 500 pounds of the stuff, which is what Lazar claimed long ago? Lazar says, "It has to come from some place where it's natural, like from a super nova." In other words, it comes from a solar system other than ours. Lazar's critics say the fact that 115 as created in a lab is unstable and fleeting proves Lazar is a liar. Lazar says the first batch was only a starting point and that he will be proven right in the long run. "I'd like to see them continue to work and produce different isotopes of 115 because they're gonna come up with a handful of different varieties and they're gonna come up with a stable isotope, and that's what we're interested," he countered. By no means does he dwell on being proven right. He and his wife have left the UFO crowd far behind and could care less, they say. Lazar stands by his original story, but says, "I can't say I would do it again. I would probably keep my mouth shut this time." George Knapp inquired, "But you must get a twinge about the program." Lazar said, "Oh sure. I mean, who wouldn't like to go back and see what they're doing now? But on the other hand, I'd rather be here." Earlier this year, British scientists say they demonstrated an anti-gravity system that appears to be based on the theories revealed years ago by Lazar. Some scientists say it's proof that what Lazar said about Element 115 is true after all. The I-Team will let you know how it comes out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:50:18 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:53:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches - Randle >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:54:09 +0100 >Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:22 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:11:40 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Science & Faith Based Approaches >>>>>>Corso claims he told Thurman of the UFOs he discussed in his >>>>>>book and that Thurman nevertheless agreed to write the foreword >>>>>>for the Day After Roswell and understood it was about UFOs. It's >>>>>>likely that during his employment service for the former Senator >>>>>>he discretely divulged some of the projects he worked on despite >>>>>>his alleged vow to Lt Gen Trudeau to not go public. Thurman may >>>>>>have written the foreward as a favor to a former close advisor >>>>>>but once his staffers discovered what was in Corso's book, they >>>>>>quickly rescinded permission for the foreword to be used. <snip> >>If you read the interview with Michael Lindeman whose URL I >>provided above, it's quite clear that Corso claims he told >>Thurman the book was about UFOs. So what happened subsequently >>was a result of Thurman's staffers withdrawing the preface >>rather than Thurman himself denying his approval. Do you really >>expect me to believe that in Corso's proposal he describes >>Thurman having written a a preface for another book that Corso >>was intending on using for the Day After Roswell? That is >>inconsistent with what he says in the Lindeman interview. I >>think you are clutching at straws in trying to make your case >>that Corso can't be trusted because of the Thurman preface issue >>I've looked closely at your arguments and have found nothing >>compelling in them. Your arguments that Corso is being "less >>than honest' are red herrings. You appear to be intent on >>shifting attention away from Corso's claims concerning the ET >>technology he disseminated into the private sector while working >>at the Foreign Technology Department at the Pentagon. Since >>that's a position he clearly held, then surely the possibility >>that he distributed such technology is the key issue here; >>rather than questions over Strom Thurman's foreword; Corso's >>promotion to Col in the reserves; a controversial photo in his >>book, deferring to Kaufman; etc., all red herrings that get us >>nowhere. <snip> >For goodness sake, please both of you, at least spell the guy's >name correctly. It is: J. Strom Thurmond (NOT Thurman).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: Michael Salla - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:18:39 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:57:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Friedman >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:03:57 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla <snip> >>Some individuals will simply look into a whistleblower's >>eyes, listen to the tone of their voice, observe their >>physical posture, and based solely on these physical cues, >>make a judgement call on their integrity and veracity. ><snip> >>Even if the visual, auditory and other physical cues point to >>someone telling the truth, they will demand more evidence. >Michael et al, >I'm staggered that this point has taken so long to come up in >this debate, particularly when you consider that Dr. Salla's >principle protaganist is a detective. C'mon Josh, you're not >going to tell me that even at an intuitive level, you don't rely >on "a gut feeling" based on signals picked up even sub >concsiously. You won't base a case on it but it might swing >whether someone remains for further questioning or is shown the >door instead. >Far more more affective and reliable than a lie detector test, >while some body actions can be controlled when lying, others, >and in particular the eyes, cannot. >Any decent poker player here on this list will confirm this. We >had enormous fun during the recent British general election, >watching Peter Collett's analysis of what our politicians were >_really_saying as he stripped them down to the bare bones. >There is no question that when applied by an expert, it is a >reliable method of deducing whether someone is telling the truth >and should not be under valued or ignored. I trust you are pulling our legs. I understand Ted Bundy was well liked by lots of people. He was a serial killer. The world is full of conmen who lie convincingly to their victims. Why not just get rid of judges and juries and let script writers tell us who is telling the truth? Michael Wolf spent time in a mental hospital and might be considered a pathological liar. There hasn't even been put forward a resume for either Lazar or Kruvant. Salla on the other hand has a very nice one on his web site which lists his educational and work history and his publications. I was quickly able to verify his degrees from the U. of Melbourne and Queensland. I sent Lazar's buddy, Gene Huff, all kinds of goodies. None in return. Salla tells us that not only can the government intimidate witnesses (with which I agree), but can and does somehow manage to have records expunged at MIT, Cal Tech, McGill, Georgetown, Cambridge. They can cleanse all yearbooks. The fact that the legal counsel at MIT says this can't be done doesn't matter. Obviously he is lying and not Kruvant or Lazar. No purpose is served by expunging, since it is the content of the claims as whistleblowers that matter. The testimony of Kruvant's brother and sister (I finally did talk to her) and old friends, and a male lover of Kruvant for several years, all agree that Kruvant was fantasizing, had been in a mental hospital, etc., doesn't matter. Yes, he knew Fellini during the time he spent in Europe. This surely contributes nothing other than to suggest he was into the arts and not the sciences, not the military, not medicine. Or was this an assignment for MJ-12? Some of you may recall that being gay would automatically kick one out of the military not too many years ago... if found out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 Re: Michael Salla - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 03:29:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:05:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Goldstein >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla <snip> >>>My point here is that in the UFO field all kinds of people come >>>out with stories. Even if you could prove any of these people >>>were in positions where they really would have access to the >>>evidence you have no way of knowing if they are telling truth or >>>disinformation. Stories are just stories. When I was a kid there >>>was a show named Naked City, a detective show based in New York >>>City. It began with the expression "there are 8 million stories >>>in the naked city". Well there are 10 million stories in the UFO >>>city. Stories mean nothing but tales unless there is real >>>evidence gathered and proven to be legitimate from other sources >>>than the tale teller. >>Yes, I know Knapp has discovered Burisch's history. I knew he >>was staging a drama just by seeing his story and how it was >>being presented. >>Just so, in the same manner, Wolf's story was plainly phoney >>(and nuts) to my eyes. >Aloha Mike, let me point out that subjective belief systems are >a hazard in the social sciences as well as in the physical >sciences. The evidentiary standards one sets for accepting the >testimony of a whistleblower vary tremendously which is why this >debate over whistleblowers is occuring in the first place. One's >position, whether pro or con a particular whistleblower or >whistleblowers in general depends on what one finds to be most >persuasive. Some individuals will simply look into a >whistleblower's eyes, listen to the tone of their voice, observe >their physical posture, and based solely on these physical cues, >make a judgement call on their integrity and veracity. Sometimes >this will be based on little if any hard evidence or >documentation. Is an individual reading another's body language, >visual and auditory cues being naive, and another demanding hard >evidence and documentation being realistic? No, I don't believe >either of these possibilities is true. >As for Michael Wolf, you say he was plainly phoney. Well that's >your subjective reaction to the Wolf material. Others >investigated Wolf seriously. By a 'serious investigation' I mean >actually visiting him, seeing the available documents in his >apartment, looking him in the eye, hearing the tone of his >voice, assessing his body language, etc. You might dismiss these >things as insufficient. In that case I think you are simply >wrong. People are much sharper than you give them credit for in >being able to make a good judgement call by simply reading these >physical cues. Stan Friedman did none of these things. His >investigation of Wolf was incomplete and based solely on what he >could find through documentation and making a few phone calls. >Wolf invited Stan to visit him in Connecticut and check out his >documents. That in my view is really an incomplete >investigation. Stan's research is insufficient to dismiss the >Wolf testimony since others have done more research Wolf and >found him to be credible. <snip> Mr. Salla, This the last I want to say anything to you as I see no basis for further communication. I am saying this primarily to everyone out there. I stated in the past that I have been professionally trained as a detective. I did work in that field for a period of time before medical problems caused me to be less active. I continued in my other area of interest, music recording engineering. producing, and management, which did not require the same level of physical stamina. My health no longer allows me to play keyboards on stage. In the 1960s and the 1970s I was involved in aviation, and I had the opportunity to restore historic aircraft and spacecraft until my health no longer allowed me to continue. The above are my professional specialties. I am not trying to put myself on any kind of pedestal but in the above three areas I have professional education and experience. In my last post I said that I felt that the most important methodologies to investigate the UFO phenomenon are those employed by _professional_ investigators, detectives, and lawyers. All I ask anyone to do is talk to a lawyer you know, a detective, or a police officer, and show him or her some of these whistleblower claims and ask how they would have investigated them. Call up a nearby private investigation agency and ask if you can have 20 minutes of their time by coming into the office and asking them to show you how they would investigate these matters. You will learn that there are ways to do background investigations that are far beyond what is done in the amateur world of Ufology. There are databases, only available to licensed detectives, that help you get anything and everything on anyone anywhere. Everyone of you have a basic sense of the work and the standards that _must_ be used in the preparation of a case for jurisprudence. You have seen enough films and TV shows to have a basic idea of the standards necessary in court. As a tip I highly recommend that, if you are going to enter into a serious relationship with anyone or hire an employee, to pay a small amount of money to a local private investigation agency to have them perform a basic background check. A person's hidden past is better found out early rather than later after harm is done. I want to make one fundamental position very clear. From the professional point of view of a detective, all the ways you mention employed by amateur UFO researchers, amateur "investigators" and others who have examined so called "whistleblowers" and UFO evidence are _strictly_ amateur-hour. It is a sad state of affairs that neither the budget nor the professional organizations do not exist to legitimately, comprehensively, nor professionally handle these matters. That is to me the primary reason Ufology just keeps limping along doing the same stuff year after year. All the above certainly pertains to Dr. Greer. >>>Mr. Salla says he studies the "whistleblowers" from the >>>perspective of social science. Yet he seems totally unwilling or >>>uncapable of beginning to separate truth from fiction, even at >>>the basic level of whether any of those people are who they are >>>claiming to be. >>Where they should be studied is in Contemporary Literature >>classes focused on creative writing exercises in the sci fi >>genre. <snip> What I said above I firmly believe is what should be the backbone of UFO investigation. To me social science is _not_ the methodology to be used for these efforts. Social sciences are tools that may be employed as aspects of the investigations. Without performing it properly, using the methodologies employed in what I am stating, you have nothing. To me it is a major reason why UFO investigation is not respected in the wider professional world or by legitimate media. >This is nothing but the indulgence of your subjective biases to >dismiss whistleblower testimonies that have been investigated by >competent researchers, and found to have merit. Science is based >on much more than systematically applying one's bias to a whole >body of evidence such as whistleblowers. <snip> As I suggest above go and ask a professional how he or she would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 21 John Tosti Clips And Stills From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:15:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:09 -0400 Subject: John Tosti Clips And Stills I found this site recently and wanted to share it with the List: http://www.johntostistory.com/ Please take a few moments and look at the vid section. There are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:33:34 -0400 Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO This is a broad announcement for the International UFO Community, forums and lists over the internet, general public and media: Brazilian Military Recognize UFO Research And Release Classified Information By A. J. Gevaerd, Editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine and Head of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers - CBU Friday, May 20, was an historic day for Ufology in Brazil, and around the world, as the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), for the very first time in its history, officially received a committee of top UFO researchers to openly discuss UFO sightings in Brazil and fully examine classified government UFO documents in several military facilities in Brasilia, the Federal Capital. By taking this very important step, the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) has placed Brazil on a very short list of countries whose militaries acknowledge that Ufology is a serious activity and a significant effort to fully understand the nature and origin of UFOs. "We want to have all info on the subject, that is withheld by us for some decades, fully released to public, through the UFO community", declared Brigadier Telles Ribeiro, chief of Brazilian Air Force Communication Center. The Brazilian Government, through the Brazilian Air Force, finally decided to come forward and recognize UFO research as a genuine activity as a direct result of intense pressure by the campaign, UFOs: Freedom of Information Now, a movement started by the Brazilian UFO Magazine in April 2004. The campaign was launched by the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), composed of 6 UFO civilian researchers: Claudeir Covo, Marco Petit, Rafael Cury, Reginaldo de Athayde, Fernando Ramalho and A. J. Gevaerd. Athayde was sick and replaced by new interim-member and veteran UFO researcher Roberto Affonso Back. Details of the campaign both in Portuguese and in English can be read at: www.ufo.com.br and www.ufo.com.br/secrecy.php The approach to the Brazilian military by the CBU committee started last February, ten months after the campaign began, with a phone call from a Brazilian Air Force spokesman, Major Antonio Lorenzo, and a formal invitation to a visit and discussion at Air Force headquarters in Brasilia. Major Lorenzo fully recognized the UFO researchers' efforts in the field and provided a few details of what kind of classified files and procedures the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) has about UFO phenomena and its detection, recording and investigation. Two meetings, took place last Friday, May 20, between the civilian UFO researchers and the military. The first happened in the headquarters of the Integrated Center of Air Defense and Air Traffic Control (Centro Integrado de Defesa Aerea e Controle de Trafego Aereo, Cindacta), a very sensitive facility. Over two hours, the researchers were given lectures on the procedures conducted at Cindacta and had the chance to visit air traffic control rooms and understand how UFOs could be detected by Air Force personnel. The second, and most important, meeting took place almost immediately, at the restricted facilities of Brazilian Air Defense Command (Comando de Defesa Aerea Brasileiro, Comdabra), an even more sensitive installation that controls the entire air defense systems in the country and surrounding areas of the Atlantic Ocean and South America. In this facility the UFO researchers were given a full briefing of the top aspects of aerial defense of the country. It was at this facility that its commander, Brigadier Atheneu Azambuja, told the UFO researchers how concerned the Brazilian military are about the UFO phenomena. Azambuja also gave details of Comdabra procedures and openly admitted that the Brazil has systematically detected and registered UFOs =96 labeled as "H Traffic" =96 since 1954. That wasn't a surprise for the UFO researchers of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), but how this registering process took place was. After detailed explanations of Comdabra activities, Brigadier Atheneu Azambuja, for the first time in history, gave full access to the civilian UFO researchers, allowing them to examine 3 different folders containing classified UFO information, cases from specific dates in 1954, 1977 and 1986. The first case was an airplane pursuit of a UFO over the ocean shores of Parana State. The second file was much more important. In the folder containing the 1977 documents examined by the UFO researchers were dozens of cases of UFOs in the Amazon with an amazing over 100 pictures taken during 'Operation Saucer', an official program of UFO investigation by the military that took place from September to December, 1977, and has been fully covered by specialized UFO pressaround the world. The third case was the "The Official Night of UFOs in Brazil", a very significant series of events that happened in May 1986, when 21 objects of over 100 metres in diameter jammed the Brazilian air traffic control system over Rio de Janeiro, Sao Jose dos Campos and Sao Paulo, when several jets were sent to intercept the intruders =96 without success. The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) representatives at those meetings then fully admitted that Ufology is serious business and broadly recognized the activity of UFO research by the civilian UFO community. And also guaranteed that further steps are about to be taken to let the researchers to examine the entire military UFO files in a more comprehensive way. Plus, a committee of military and civilian UFO researchers would be established very soon, co-ordinated by the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU). This certainly means that we will start a new era in Ufology in Brazil and in South America. Very good things are about to happen as the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) Command, the Brazilian Ministry of Defense and Brazilian Ppresident Luis Inacio Lula da Silva receive the open letters and formal requests for opening for good the documents and start the mentioned committee, as presented to them by their spokesman. More news to come.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Re: Michael Salla - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:09:51 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:17:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:56:55 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:48:44 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:02 -0700 >>>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla ><snip> >>>My point here is that in the UFO field all kinds of people come >>>out with stories. Even if you could prove any of these people >>>were in positions where they really would have access to the >>>evidence you have no way of knowing if they are telling truth or >>>disinformation. Stories are just stories. When I was a kid there >>>was a show named Naked City, a detective show based in New York >>>City. It began with the expression "there are 8 million stories >>>in the naked city". Well there are 10 million stories in the UFO >>>city. Stories mean nothing but tales unless there is real >>>evidence gathered and proven to be legitimate from other sources >>>than the tale teller. >>Yes, I know Knapp has discovered Burisch's history. I knew he >>was staging a drama just by seeing his story and how it was >>being presented. >>Just so, in the same manner, Wolf's story was plainly phoney >>(and nuts) to my eyes. >Aloha Mike, let me point out that subjective belief systems are >a hazard in the social sciences as well as in the physical >sciences. The evidentiary standards one sets for accepting the >testimony of a whistleblower vary tremendously which is why this >debate over whistleblowers is occuring in the first place. This is nonsense. Whistleblowers have to provide ID at borders, at car rental agencies, etc. Verification is a word that doesn't seem to be in your vocabulary. If a guy says he was in the military, he should have a DD 214. If he says he is a Canadian, he should have proof of that. If he says he has 2 degrees or 6 degrees, he should be able to provide some verification. If he can't provide any, it is reasonable to assume he is lying.Is there some kind of rule that says if a person calims to be a whistleblower, he need not provide any verification? >One's >position, whether pro or con a particular whistleblower or >whistleblowers in general depends on what one finds to be most >persuasive. Some individuals will simply look into a >whistleblower's eyes, listen to the tone of their voice, observe >their physical posture, and based solely on these physical cues, >make a judgement call on their integrity and veracity. Sometimes >this will be based on little if any hard evidence or >documentation. Is an individual reading another's body language, >visual and auditory cues being naive, and another demanding hard >evidence and documentation being realistic? No, I don't believe >either of these possibilities is true. You are clearly wrong on both counts. Anybody who thinks they can tell who is lying and who is telling the truth is indeed naive and unrealistic. The world is full of confidence men and women. There is certainly no shortage in ufology. Guy Kirkwood is a very convincing liar, but his pilots license says he was cleared to fly single engine planes not the 4 engine planes he said he was flying. The Air Force says he was never a pilot for them using any of the three names he has used. Yes, some people believed him when he said his DD 214 was in a box of papers that fell off the truck when he moved. And my dog ate my homework, too. >>From what I have observed from those resisting the veracity of >whistleblower testimonies, that many are very frightened to take >on a whistleblower case without hard evidence or documentation. >Even if the visual, auditory and other physical cues point to >someone telling the truth, they will demand more evidence. Are you really suggesting that liars don't get good at their trade? Many police departments have bunko squads because there are liars all over the place. It would be nice to get rid of all those security checks at airports, but lots of weapons have been picked up. >Even >if there is some evidence in the form of corroborating witnesses >and photos, this will be insufficient. In the case of Burisch >and Wolf, both were interviewed by credible researchers. Bill >Hamilton has been researching the Burisch case for sometime and >believes he is credible. Bill more than anyone else is the >pioneer in the Burisch case, physically interviewed Burisch, >dealt with his handlers in the covert program Burisch works in, >verified Burisch's credentials, interviewed family members, etc. >I think it's pretty hazardous to dismiss all that simply because >George Knapp doesn't sign on. I have tremendous respect for >George Knapp and his investigative skills in ferreting out >informatiion to support the Lazar case. However, I don't accept >Knapp's assessment on the Burisch case. >As for Michael Wolf, you say he was plainly phoney. Well that's >your subjective reaction to the Wolf material. Sorry , but it is my objective reaction to both the total absence of evidence to support his extraordinary claims such as having been a pilot and a USAF colonel, and having done 2 theoretical physics PhD Theses, and medical, law and education degrees, heading a large research institute, which even Dunn and Bradstreet couldn't find, and the testimony of family and lovers and paperwork indicating that he flunked out of Upsala, and was in a mental hospital. >Others >investigated Wolf seriously. By a 'serious investigation' I mean >actually visiting him, seeing the available documents in his >apartment, looking him in the eye, hearing the tone of his >voice, assessing his body language, etc. You might dismiss these >things as insufficient. In that case I think you are simply >wrong. People are much sharper than you give them credit for in >being able to make a good judgement call by simply reading >these physical cues. Stan Friedman did none of these things. His >investigation of Wolf was incomplete and based solely on what he >could find through documentation and making a few phone calls. I made a lot of phone calls to a lot of people at a lot on institutions including several state agencies. No research institute. I spoke with family people I reviewed documents. >Wolf invited Stan to visit him in Connecticut and check out his >documents. That in my view is really an incomplete >investigation. Stan's research is insufficient to dismiss the >Wolf testimony since others have done more research Wolf and >found him to be credible. Are you saying they turned up degrees, a resume, a charter for the institute, evidence of being a pilot, being a colonel, being close to Clinton (Because he said the Clintons slept in the same bed?)? >Your own reaction is really typical of those not willing to >explore the veracity of Wolf's claims simply because they seemed >too 'wild'. I spoke on the phone yesterday with Stephen Geller >who conducted another independent investigation of the Wolf >case. Over the period of 18 months, Geller spoke to Wolf every >other night on the phone for an hour or more discussing >different aspects of his case. Much of Wolf's information >impressed Geller as accurate in terms of the literary world in >which Geller moved. Geller is a screenwriter and is an Associate >Professor at Boston University and Director for their >Screenwriting program, so he is someone with tremendous >experience in the literary world. He checked out Wolf's claim, >for example, that he knew Frederico Fellini, and found out that >Wolf was a friend of Fellini and did appear in one of Fellini's >movies. Geller also visited Wolf in Connecticut to get more >information about him and to check out his documents. These >impressed Geller in terms of their scope and implications. How >could someone assess Wolf's case without having checking out his >documents? Geller also checked out Wolf's physical cues and body >language and found him to be credible. Geller concluded that >Wolf was telling the truth. I think that simply saying Geller >was another investigator, like Paola Harris, Jim Courant, >Michael Hesseman that fell for Wolf 'wild tale' is insufficient. >These people all have good street sense and don't just jump on >someone's bandwagon simply because they are telling wild tales. And how is it you have verified this claim? Again, let us get rid of judges, juries, border guards and hire Mr. Geller. Just how did he verify that Michael had done 2 theses, was a pilot, and a colonel, etc, etc? >>Something of a generalized storyline, concerning covert >>government involvement/knowledge, has developed over the >>decades. Different people with different agendas (but overall >>centered, it seems, around creative writing projects) have >>actually invented for themselves a leading and starring role in >>that covert world! (Michael Wolf and Dan Burisch, for example.) >There is much more to these whistleblowers than simply >developing creative writing projects. They have been >investigated thoroughly by a number of credible researchers who >accept their cases. I think you and others on the forum should >not jump to conclusions based on incomplete investigations or >your own biases. In other words, verification is unnessesary. Some people want to believe what they hear from charming fellows and gals. Nobody wants to admit that they can't tell who is telling the truth. Every college registrar to whom I have spoken to verify a claimed degree has told me they get lots of calls about people who supposedly attended their institution but had not. >>>Stephen Greer rustled up a bunch of ex-military whistleblowers >>>for his Disclosure Project but he unfortunately did not vet >>>those who had dubious tales from those who had strong >>>backgrounds and who perhaps could lead the way toward some >>>evidence to confirm their stories. He also diverged into free >>>energy. He was asking for a congressional investigation but his >>>sloppiness as mentioned above led to nowhere. You should educate >>>yourself by looking at the UFO Updates archives of that period. >>I saw recently where Edgar Mitchell has expressed some >>complaints about Greer overreaching. That he doesn't want to be >>associated with Greer's effort. >>I feel Greer has created blinders by insisting on adhering to >>his closed ideological system (dissing abduction cases, seeing >>only lovey dovey aliens, etc.) Plus, I think he may have that >>bug a lot of ufo investigators have that causes getting excited >>at startling claims and a numbing of critical thinking centers >>in the brain. (I'm chosing the medical model as the basis for my >>hypothesis, not sociological models.) >Greer may have screened out the negative ET evidence from some >whistleblowers such as Clifford Stone, but overall Greer did a >tremendous job in amassing a large collection of whistleblowers >to be heard in the one forum. I think many on this forum do not >appreciate the significance of Greer's organizational >achievement and take too many cheap shots at someone who has >done more to further the field of UFO research than anyone else >since that late Donald Keyhoe. I would take 10 to one odds that the majority on this interest group would not agree with this appraisal. That he has been better at raising money would probably be agreed to. >Greer's organizational skills are >first class and while one may differ over some aspects of his >screening process, his achievement was to bring into the UFO >arena a fresh cadre of thinkers who would think outside the box >established by veteran UFO researchers. Greer's efforts were >instrumental in my own entry into this field and I'm only now >beginning to appreciate the full significance of the >whistleblowers he worked with. Greer correctly has focused the >attention of the public on 'lies on the ground', rather than >'lights in the sky'. Greer's work is in my view the underpinning >upon which 'exopolitics' is based. While Greer did not coin the >term, I think he is most responsible for making exopolitics a >credible new field in political science. I take it we must accept your appraisal of this? >>>Mr. Salla says he studies the "whistleblowers" from the >>>perspective of social science. Yet he seems totally unwilling or >>>uncapable of beginning to separate truth from fiction, even at >>>the basic level of whether any of those people are who they are >>>claiming to be. >>Where they should be studied is in Contemporary Literature >>classes focused on creative writing exercises in the sci fi >>genre. >These are nothing more than your own biases. There's nothing you >have specifically mentioned to dismiss these whistleblowers. >Just because their stories appear 'wild' from your perspective, >that doesn't make them untrue. ><snip> >>>Mike, Moseley has his own perspective and his own sense of >>>humor. I have known Dick Hall for a number of years and I have >>>always held Mr. Hall's research in the highest regard. I think >>>Moseley was being disrespectful towards him because Dick is not >>>his fan. Another reason I like Dick Hall is because he has a >>>very good perspective of what is wrong with ufology. We have had >>>talks where we very much agree on those points. >>Yeah, Richard Hall is pretty sharp. I don't take Moseley's >>characterization of him seriously. (I take it as entertainment.) >>I remember badgering Moseley to get up on the stage and speak a >>few words at our White House Demonstration in '93. He did what I >>expected, which was provide a sharply critical exam of our >>doings: "You guys are going to have to do a lot better than >>this!" (Moments later he was at my hotel room with others, >>cheering CNN's surprisingly high profile and positive report.) >>>I am glad you learned a lot from what Stan Friedman and Kevin >>>Randle pointed out to Mr. Salla. However if you are serious >>>about ufology you should have already known the phoniness of the >>>"whistleblowers" mentioned. >>Oh... like I said above: phonies! >This is nothing but the indulgence of your subjective biases to >dismiss whistleblower testimonies that have been investigated by >competent researchers, and found to have merit. Investigation of whistleblower testimonies has to include verification of claims that should be easy to verify, not just deciding that because they sound and look honest, they must be telling the truth. >Science is based >on much more than systematically applying one's bias to a whole >body of evidence such as whistleblowers. >>>I am not saying to boot him out. I am saying to ignore him >>>because he just makes his own phony arguments against the facts >>>that some of the strongest UFO researchers present to him. He >>>just persists in pointless prose that just circles around and >>>does not land. It seems a waste of good work to try to point out >>>anything to Mr. Salla. His list of questions to ask or not ask >>>was ridiculous. For confirmation I let the famous >>>"whistleblower" Homer Simpson read them and all he could say was >>>"Doh!". >>>I say firmly that Mr. Salla will not be a serious investigator >>>because he really knows nothing and refuses to even begin to >>>learn what real investigation entails. He is just a sponge who >>>absorbs everything he wants to believe without qualifying any of >>>it. In terms of real investigation he is not yet even a Barney >>>Fife. Sure, he seems like a polite, nice guy but he is incapable >>>of really hearing. >>It doesn't matter anyway. Real whistleblowers won't be >>approaching UFO investigators/analysts. They'll approach >>mainstream journalists. The decades long efforts of many ufo >>investigators is to be admired in many ways. But, breakthroughs >>(imo) won't be coming from their work. Especially breakthroughs >>engineered by whistleblowers. If anyone really has an awesome >>inside job involving aliens and all that, would they go to a ufo >>investigator or a major news outlet if they really desired to >>blow that whistle? >Why don't you take a look at Terry Hansen's book, The Missing >Times, to get a better appreciation of what the mainstream media >is capable of. As for 'real whistleblowers' approaching >mainstream journalists rather than UFO investigators, I think >these are judgement calls that a whistleblower makes. In some >cases whistleblowers such as Lazar and Corso do approach >mainstream media and get their stories out. Others such as >Burisch and Wolf approach UFO researchers. Why, well humans are >complex and whistleblowers are very different in terms of how >they view the mass media. Finally, since you gentlemen are >referring to me in this thread it would be useful if you got the >title right. I have a PhD in Government which you can verify >online at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Salla-PhD.pdf . If you >value documentation so highly, why don't you walk the talk? Michael, I did indeed verify with the U. of Melbourne and Queensland that you received the degrees you claim on the dates you claim, that you have in your curriculum vitae. Now about you showing us verification on the claims of esteemed whistleblowers Lazar and Kruvant and Corso? Oh, by the way, I have a copy of Corso's signed, notarized,sworn statement to attorney Peter Gersten. Included is this: "That during my tenure with the defendant (Department of the Army) I was a member of President Eisenhower's National Security Council and former head of the Technology Desk at defendant's research and Development department...in 1961 I came into possession of what I refer to as the Roswell File..." Sure didn't give him much time to perform all the wonders he
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Levengood/Burke Respond To H-Glaze Explained From: CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:05:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:19:25 -0400 Subject: Levengood/Burke Respond To H-Glaze Explained CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network May 21, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ LEVENGOOD / BURKE RESPONSE TO "H-GLAZE EXPLAINED" CROP CIRCLE ARTICLE CCCRN News was requested to forward this response from W.C. Levengood and John Burke regarding the article by R. Ashby posted earlier this year on the X-Stream Science web site, concerning the much-debated "H-glaze" anomaly from the Cherhill, Wiltshire, UK crop formation in 1993. It can be viewed here: http://www.cccrn.ca/hglazeresponse.html An MS Word text file version is also available. _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Blurry Mars UFO Ours? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:58:18 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:29:08 -0400 Subject: Blurry Mars UFO Ours? http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA07941 This is funny. It's a pic taken by the Mars Orbiter Camera aboard the Mars Global Surveyor of the European Odyssey Orbiter. First time a spacecraft orbiting another planet takes a pic of another spacecraft orbiting that planet. What's funny is it's a blurry pic. With all the high tech wizardry onboard we still get a fuzzy/blurry pic. Any Martians with their pocket cameras probably get blurry pics of our spacecraft too. I think it's probably some bizarre law of physics that all spacecraft are blurry when someone is lookin'. No, not really, just joking.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Lazar And Physics From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:08:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:33:02 -0400 Subject: Lazar And Physics I think anybody who believes that Bob Lazar is a scientist should read this article by Mr. Morgan. Lazar is _not_ a scientist. http://www.serve.com/mahood/lazar/critiq.htm Lazar writes scientific gobbledygook. I realize that facts won't impress everybody on the List, but it should at least give pause to those that believe that whistleblowers must be believed because they seem so sincere
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:50:24 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:59:39 -0400 Subject: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal Aloha all, I want to focus on some recent scientific advances that vindicate some of the information that Bob Lazar provided from his alleged experiences at S4, and respond to some of his critics. The most important criticism concerned Lazar's initial claim in 1989 of the existence of a stable form of element 115. The existence of such an element was initially dismissed by some of his critics and became a factor in Lazar not being taken seriously. For example Stanton Friedman wrote in 1997: "There is no evidence that any 115 has been created anywhere. Based on what we know about all other elements over #100, it would certainly have been radioactive with a short half life, and 500 pounds could not have been accumulated. His scheme sounds good, but makes no real sense especially in view of how difficult it would be to add protons to #115." http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sflazar.html However, recently scientists were able to reproduce an isotope of 115 in a laboratory, and said that a stable isotope is possible. Dr Joshua Patin, one of the creators of the 115 isotope, confirmed in an interview with Linda Moulton Howe that with sufficient technological advances, the creation of a stable form of 115 is possible: "[Howe:] Could there be an element 115 isotope that is solid and can be held in the hand? [Dr Patin:] "Some day down the road, I think so. If it's true that we find something that is long enough lived. To hold something in your hand, you would need a significant quantity of these atoms. We've produced four atoms of Element 115 in a month. It would take -- you don't have enough time in the rest of the universe to create enough that you could hold in your hand through these same kinds of production methods (that we are using). That's why I say a future technology might allow us advances in terms of how much can be produced and the target material, maybe a better way of producing -- but somewhere down the road, there might be a possibility, sure. See: http://www.intalek.com/Index/News/Element115.htm As to how element 115 is formed, Lazar claimed it is formed in massive stars. In an article he wrote: "...many single star solar systems have stars that are so large that our Sun would appear to be a dwarf by comparison. Keeping all this is mind, it should be obvious that a large, single star system, binary star system, or multiple star system would have had more of the prerequisite mass and electromagnetic energy present during their creations. Scientists have long theorized that there are potential combinations of protons and neutrons which should provide stable elements with atomic numbers being higher than any which appear on our periodic chart, though none of these heavy elements occur naturally on earth." http://members.fortunecity.com/groom51/interstellartravel.html Lazar's idea that element 115 is formed in stars led to more criticism this time by astronomers and physicists that Lazar was incorrect since stars could not produce heavy metals with atomic numbers greater than iron (atomic number 26) in stable stars. This criticism was raised by Dr David Morgan in 1996 whose critique was kindly sent to me by Stanton Friedman. Dr Morgan says: "[Lazar] SEEMS to be suggesting that his element 115, the alien fuel source, which doesn't exist on the Earth, should be present in those solar systems that were more massive at their inception. The implication here is that a star system which condensed out of a more massive primordial cloud should have a greater abundance of heavier elements. This is quite incorrect. Heavy elements - all elements heavier than iron - are not formed during the normal life cycles of stars. The only time when these nuclei are "cooked" is during the collapse and subsequent explosion of supernovae. The supernova explosion then spreads heavy elements throughout the galaxy. For this reason, the abundances of heavy elements in any particular star system depend NOT upon the properties of the current star, but on the properties of the nearby stars of the PREVIOUS GENERATION! Therefore, all of the star systems in a particular region of the galaxy will have essentially the same abundances of heavy elements, regardless of the mass of star. If element 115 is STABLE, as Lazar claims it to be, then it should be created in supernova explosions and it should exist EVERYWHERE!" http://www.serve.com/mahood/lazar/critiq.htm Dr Morgan's criticism of Lazar is not supported by recent breakthroughs in understanding the formation of heavy metals in stars. It has been discovered for example that heavy metals with higher atomic numbers than iron (26) can and are found in stars in their normal cycle rather than just through supernova which was the =91old understanding'. A NASA astronomer reflecting on this new theory answers a question concerning the existence of heavy metals with higher atomic metals forming in massive stars and answers: "it does not require a supernova to create elements heavier than iron. Heavy elements can also form in the cores of massive stars before they go supernova" http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/010125a.html This new theory has been recently confirmed with the recent discovery of three massive stars that have 'lead' (atomic number 82) in them: "The theory has now been supported by data from the three binary, or "double" stars, studied by French and Belgian astronomers using the European Southern Observatory 3.6 metre telescope at La Silla, Chile. Each star, which is otherwise light in metal, contains an amount of lead weighing the same as the Moon. http://tinyurl.com/bwakv The new understanding of the formation of heavy metals in stars and discovery of large quantities of lead in some stars basically negates Dr Morgan's criticism and shows that Lazar's idea that some massive stars in the normal stellar cycle may have element 115 developed in them is a very real possibility. What are the exopolitical implications of this given Lazar's claims that extraterrestrials use 115 for their propulsion systems? If element 115 is naturally formed in the core of some massive stars and element 115 is used in the propulsion system of extraterrestrial races, then it would be fair to assume that some extraterrestrials may have discovered how to mine stars of their heavy elements to use as a propulsion fuel. Indeed, extraterrestrials with sufficient knowledge in mining suns of element 115 and other elements may be using this as part of an interstellar trade. Indeed, such knowledge and possession of large quantities of 115 and other elements may lead to interstellar conflicts over certain star systems. Indeed, the Earth's sun or nearby stars may have heavy elements that may attract extraterrestrial races who seek to mine these precious natural resources. We are now slowly moving to an understanding of how certain star systems might be highly prized by extraterrestrial races that seek to gain control and mine stars of heavy elements such as element 115. With new advances in physics and astronomy, Bob Lazar's information so widely dismissed in the early 1990's appears to have more relevance than ever.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Re: Michael Salla - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:13:47 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:02:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Miller >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:18:39 -0300 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:03:57 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:14 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Michael Salla ><snip> >>Michael et al, >>I'm staggered that this point has taken so long to come up in >>this debate, particularly when you consider that Dr. Salla's >>principle protaganist is a detective. C'mon Josh, you're not >>going to tell me that even at an intuitive level, you don't >>rely on "a gut feeling" based on signals picked up even sub >>concsiously. You won't base a case on it but it might swing >>whether someone remains for further questioning or is shown >>the door instead. >>Far more more affective and reliable than a lie detector >>test, while some body actions can be controlled when lying, >>others, and in particular the eyes, cannot. >>Any decent poker player here on this list will confirm this. >>We had enormous fun during the recent British general >>election, watching Peter Collett's analysis of what our >>politicians were_really_saying as he stripped them down to >>the bare bones. >>There is no question that when applied by an expert, it is a >>reliable method of deducing whether someone is telling the >>truth and should not be under valued or ignored. >I trust you are pulling our legs. I understand Ted Bundy was >well liked by lots of people. He was a serial killer. The >world is full of conmen who lie convincingly to their >victims. Why not just get rid of judges and juries and let >script writers tell us who is telling the truth? Michael Wolf >spent time in a mental hospital and might be considered a >pathological liar. Yeah, all right then Stan, I'm joking. But these guys aren't. http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/bodytalk/lying.html http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=3123&t=globalization&noseek=one Some other points; 1. Could we stop talking about Dr. Salla as if he is some object or thing? 2. Give Ted Bundy a rest. His name appears far too often for my comfort in your messages Stan, and folk are beginning to talk. 3. Someone must be listening to you because, by a remarkable coincidence, our government has plans in this parliamentary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:49:18 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:04:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:57:17 +0000 >Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:17:17 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video >>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:30:58 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Mexican Fleet Prompts Release Of Kaufman Texas Video ><snip> >>>Pelicans? You need to make your own study and evaluation of >>>this video, Martin, and draw your own conclusions. However if >>>you haven't seen the Mexican UFO fleets video collection and >>>have not made any research on the extensive Mexican database on >>>this phenomena it's clear you simply don't understand what I'm >>>talking about. >>Oh dear Santiago >>What an utterly bankrupt response! Of course I don't know what >>you're talking about because you said nothing. That is why I >>asked you to elaborate. And now, what is anyone to infer from >>your vacant and evasive reply, but that you have absolutely >>nothing to say? >>Your reflex 'pelicanist' jibe is pathetic and so far of the mark >>it is laughable, as a number of "real" so-called pelicanists >>with whom I have had very lively and _very_detailed_ arguments >>over cases that I regard as significant would tell you. >>It seems to me that you have no understanding of the need to >>address basic physical-optical and geometrical-optical questions >>in such a case, and if you wished to send out a signal to anyone >>with sense that your case for these "global UFO fleets" is empty >>of science or sense then you could do no better than this. >Then for you these are just birds - pelicans or whatever - so I >guess this case is closed for you right? Fine!! Keep it that >way. Santiago No it isn't fine at all. It's depressing and infuriating and rather sad. All you had to do was explain the "characteristics and parameters" of the Kaufman video that you had studied, as I asked. You didn't even need to give us any figures if you didn't want to go into details - you could have just said, "Yes we have determined the FOV of the camera lens, the different zooms applied, the focal distance, the distance to the tree branch, the individual and collective angular rates of the objects, their angular sizes, the azimuth and elevation of the group in relation to the sun , whatever, and we conclude that a flock of brightly reflective white birds is very unlikely." That would have piqued my interest no end. Instead we got petulance and evasion. Let me explain to you what it means for a case to be "closed" in the sense you imply - it means someone has made up their mind because of a preconceived idea and blindly resists persuasion, often by refusing to confront evidence out in the open. This is "pelicanism" I suppose, and it seems to me from your posts that it is closer to what you are doing than to what I am doing. I _think_ (and note that I am bravely thinking for myself here, as wisely recommended by John Velez, and) that the Kaufman video looks a lot like a flight of birds, a not unnatural first impression since the photographer himself thought so too. But I am _inviting persuasion_ to the contrary. If this strikes you as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:44:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:05:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:04:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:20:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Review Of Mexican 'Fleet' Videos >Mr. Smith, nowhere in any of my posts have I referred to the >objects in the Mexican videos as "alien spacecraft" or "alien >objects." Well, since you aren't going to "waste" time with me any more, then this is merely for the record. You are also misinterpreting my post. I did not say YOU have SPECIFICALLY said they are alien ships. Some people are. Also, as I wrote in another post, "fleets" imply ntelligently designed vehicles, which essentially is "identifying" them, but you still call them UFOs. You can't have it both ways. If you called them "Multitudinous UFOs" or "Vast number of UFOs" then this is a proper term to a video to which an analysis has not been subjected and allows NO bias to the presumed cause of the video. We all agree that there are UFOs and even these videos you show ARE UFOs. Some of us have suspicions as to what they are. You have your own opinion. Research and analysis will answer the question definitely (I hope). >>I am sure you will get lots of hits and publicity and the public >>will eat it up! Bread and circuses. >Funny how _you're_ the one thinking in terms of "getting >attention" as being the object of it all. Is that what it's all >about for you James? Getting attention? Why did you choose that >particular motive to project on us? Putting words in MY mouth this time! Well, I won't launch into a "tirade" like you because it really doesn't matter too much. Obviously, I said, as shown above that the videos will get lots of hits and you will get lots of publicity. Did I say what your ultimate goal was? I assume you will get more money and attention, but I see no reason to think you are motivated by greed. >You see, "we" (me and my "compatriots" as you call us,) are >trying to _raise_the_public_awareness_ about an issue we think >is important and even urgent. An issue we think everybody needs >to know about. An issue we think everybody has a right to know >about. Public awareness. Noble. Still, if you really care about the public, it would be better to analyze and research the videos before releasing them because you might create a public panic for something which may be really balloons, birds or hoax. >You on the other hand demonstrate a genuine need to control >what others think. Hardly, how can offering an opinion control other person's thought? What kind of pull do you think I have? I am no Friedman or Klass or Hynek! I was asked by one of your compatriots for my opinion on the video(s) and when I do, you don't like it. Beware what you ask for because you might get it! >And as evidenced by your acidic and always >condescending and disrespectful responses to everyone >connected >to this case, you have apparently suffer from a superiority >complex that allows you to talk down to others around you. You are merely too sensitive about critical thinking to accept any opinions counter to your own. >No, James. We are, none of us, (myself and my Latino >compatriots,) psychologically or emotionally damaged. That's nice. >We are >grown men who you should be treating with more respect. Exactly how am I NOT treating you with respect? >You know, find out what your real needs are. Real need: Prove that UFOs are alien spacecraft. >The sad part is, if you weren't so busy being sarcastic and >trying to belittle and demean all of us, we could actually be >communicating with each other. Unlikely, because anything I say that doesn't agree with your viewpoint is taken as a personal, vitriolic attack on your character, manhood, whatever.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 22 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:59:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:06:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >After detailed explanations of Comdabra activities, Brigadier >Atheneu Azambuja, for the first time in history, gave full >access to the civilian UFO researchers, allowing them to examine >3 different folders containing classified UFO information, cases >from specific dates in 1954, 1977 and 1986. The first case was >an airplane pursuit of a UFO over the ocean shores of Parana >State. Hello A.J., Well done to everyone who brought this about. Can we hold out any hope of fresh information on what is one of the most
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:42:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 07:33:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <Ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:50:24 -1000 >Subject: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >Aloha all, I want to focus on some recent scientific advances >that vindicate some of the information that Bob Lazar provided >from his alleged experiences at S4, and respond to some of his >critics. The most important criticism concerned Lazar's initial >claim in 1989 of the existence of a stable form of element 115. >The existence of such an element was initially dismissed by some >of his critics and became a factor in Lazar not being taken >seriously. For example Stanton Friedman wrote in 1997: If you cut a paper copy of the periodic table in the following way you will see some interesting things: A) Cut out the entire table. B) Cut between elements 12 & 20 and along the line below 13 over to 18 (do not cut below any of the inerts.) C) Tape the right edges of 4 & 12 to the left edges of 5 & 13 D) Cut along the line from the top of 56 to the top of 85 E) Cut between 57 & 72 & between 89 & 104. F) Cut out the section 58-71 & 90-103. G) Tape the section you just cut out between 57 & 72 and between 89 & 104. H) Tape the edges of 1 & 2 together, back-to-back. You now have a nice little 3-D model of the elements per the S, P ,D, & F electron orbitals <G>of quantum mechanics. By aligning your model in various ways you can now deduce a lot of chemical and physical properties of the elements. And perhaps predict the properties of 'new elements'. Possible ways that atom may align in pure solids may also be deduced somewhat as well.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:30:48 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 07:53:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:59:21 +0100 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>After detailed explanations of Comdabra activities, Brigadier >>Atheneu Azambuja, for the first time in history, gave full >>access to the civilian UFO researchers, allowing them to examine >>3 different folders containing classified UFO information, cases >>from specific dates in 1954, 1977 and 1986. The first case was >>an airplane pursuit of a UFO over the ocean shores of Parana >>State. >Hello A.J., >Well done to everyone who brought this about. Can we hold out >any hope of fresh information on what is one of the most >important cases in UFO history - the Jan 1958 Trindade Island >photos? Hello Martin and Listers: This has been a great moment for us all down here in Brazil. We have been told by our military that "all doors will be open" in proper time. Trindade Case is in the very top of our requests, just after Operation Saucer (77), The Official Night for UFOs in Brazil (86) and Varginha Case (96). The Trindade Case is a Navy file, and Varginha an Army file. The others are Air Force files. So far, we have succeed in persuading the Air Force. This will help when we try the Navy and Army - seperate approaches that we're going to make. I, along with my team, will definitely apply pressure to our military to keep things rolling. As I get additional info, it will be immediately sent to UFO UpDates.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:21:58 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky >From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:16:24 -0500 >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video <snip> >The Phoenix ufo skywatchers group needs to followup by >contacting the Luke AFB and the airport regarding military >flights over the area that evening. It could be some mil >exercise of some sort but it sure is strange that no aircraft >was noticed before the lights appear in the cloud deck. It >still looks like a pivoting craft possibly triangular moving >quickly on a level flight away above the mountains. It did not look or act like flares to the naked eye and in fact about 70 minutes after this event, another closer light streaked across the sky which certainly was not flares. Unfortunately, our equipment was packed up. It is important to note the following concerning flares. - The Location is well away from the AFB Test Range and in fact over a dry and somewhat populated area, so flare drops would be illegal and dangerous. - Luke specifically stated they had no excercises in that area all night. - The color is inconsistant with flares. - The duration seems too short for flares. - The vector is consistant with F-16's I've seen fly in the area, while the speed and appearance is not. I've never seen flares dropped in that area because they are prohibited from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 James Forrestal From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:27:54 -0400 Subject: James Forrestal
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: Pedro Cunha <pedro.cunha.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:11:26 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:37:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >This is a broad announcement for the International UFO >Community, forums and lists over the internet, general public >and media: >Brazilian Military Recognize UFO Research And Release Classified >Information <snip> A.J. Gevaerd and CBU, Congratulations to you all. As you know I was present the evening before the main event, on May 20th, when CBU comission signed the documents to be presented/delivered to the Brazilian Air Force and other Brazilian authorities, including the Defense Minister. I am witness to the seriousness behind the work you have done towards the disclosure of official documents about UFOs in Brazil, mainly with the campaign you lead, gathering signatures from whoever decides/wishes to request information about UFOs in Brazil. Also the Brazilian Air Force deserves much respect for the courage to, finally, go public and allow Ufologists in this country to have access to classified documents, at no matter what security level, about UFOs and similar events. A big first step into what is yet to come, I hope. I, myself, think that now we can move on and have an official joint comission between the military and civilian ufologists to study the UFO phenomenon in Brazil.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:41:56 -0400 Subject: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? The End of SETI As We Know It? by Mac Tonnies http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com When I was doing radio spots promoting my book I was asked a lot of dumb questions, mostly in keeping with the David Bowie/Spiders from Mars theme. But I remember one particularly good question, I think by a DJ in Dublin. Essentially, he wanted to know what business I had writing a book on scientific subjects since I had no formal scientific background. (Unlike Richard Hoagland, who didn't graduate college, I can't claim experience as a planetarium director or advisor to Walter Cronkite, nor can I claim to have inspired NASA with the idea to include messages on deep-space probes.) The gist of my answer was: Who exactly is qualified to assess candidate artifacts on the Martian surface? The stark truth is that there are no experts. There are no "working teams" exploring this possibility (with the exception of the Society for Planetary SETI Research, of which I'm a member). There's no grant money, no exo-archaeological funds on NASA's Mars exploration budget. Unfortunately, what we do have are lots of pseudoskeptics content to cling to dated "straw man" arguments in order to keep the status quo afloat - even if that means misrepresenting or ignoring contradictory data. It's not just Mars, of course. We've allowed a handful of people, foremost among them Seth Shostak and Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute, to become veritable ambassadors for the aliens they pretend to understand so well, despite a pronounced, utter failure to provide the hard evidence they claim is so vital. We're assured that aliens can't get here from there - essentially because we have yet to get there from here using primitive chemically fueled rocket technology. We're treated to endless assurances that extraterrestrials will choose to communicate via radio (for a host of anthropomorphic reasons too numerable to explore in the available space). Worse, SETI personalities tell us - again and again - that radio contact with ETs in inevitable, even imminent... and when the deadlines expire, the mainstream media dutifully forgets. Consequently, we're subjected to an intellectually vacuous false dichotomy between brash, self-proclaimed debunkers and equally brash believers, typified by the already-infamous Peter Jennings UFO special (which some commentators expected to break the UFO documentary mold for reasons still unclear to me). But the edifice is cracking under an onslaught of fresh ideas and new discoveries. SETI's cult-like grip is slowly but certainly weakening as scientists dare to suggest alternative methods by which alien beings might contact us (assuming they want to). From messages grafted into our DNA to communiques wafted through space in the form of tangible artifacts (up to and including autonomous robots capable of building copies of themselves from raw materials), a chorus of vital new theories and revised assumptions about our role in the Cosmos has insinuated itself into the mainstream, posing a grave challenge to SETI and rocking our existential foundations. I think the scientific community, for all its jaded self- assurance and adherence to brittle paradigms, is unconsciously tiring of SETI's charade. And who wouldn't? We've managed, against all odds, to grant a technocratic minority the right to effectively speak on our behalf, to tell us what to expect, to define the parameters of a universe we have yet to adequately map. Almost unbelievably, we've allowed the consuming question of extraterrestrial intelligence to become boring, the stuff of ha-ha sound-bites and rote dismissals of anyone inclined to dissent. But we have reached a turning point. And the assumed 'rules' have been revealed to be unexpectedly pliant, suggesting a galaxy vastly more colorful than that painted by SETI's equations. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:30:29 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:45:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:33:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:13 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? ><snip> >>>>Increasingly, it's beginning to look as if anti gravity >>>>involves strong and perhaps new field types which interact with >>>>gravity waves (per Tom Bearden for one) and it's quite likely >>>>that the fuzzing in that photo was due to an advanced field type >>>>rather than out of focus. ><snip> >>>The real analysis shows something less than an alien spacecraft. >>>I agree with the work of the fewllow at the below links. >>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ ><snip> >>>So the assessment that it is likely registration dots to >>>match/patch images from different sources makes sense. ><snip> >>If they are registration marks they are a fuzzy and imprecise >>representation of same. Usually crosshairs or right angled marks >>- reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed right into a >>thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, etc. >>Why would this particular satellite - or aircraft - camera >>resort to such an imprecise method? Additionally, some of the >>white fuzzy dots are only half visible. >>Not solved for me as yet. >>How about a high altitude scientific balloon - 300-400 feet in >>diameter, or smaller - hanging nearly motionless in the same >>spot for an hour or so, with the aircraft shooting on different >>east west tracks and getting parallex images of the same object >>each time? ><snip> >Hi Everyone! >If you go back to the web site above and check out the 12 new >unlike in the science fiction movie "Independence Day". >If the later is indeed the case, I am sure Don, Eleanor, myself >and other UFO UpDates Listers with some flying experience would >willing volunteer to pilot fighter jets against these ETs in >defense of our planet! <grin> ET aside and to just reiterate, Nick, I don't for one moment believe these are registration marks. For one thing they are too sloppy and some are only half spheres, but the biggest stake in the heart of this theory is, why aren't they on other shots on the Google maps. I've been through a couple of other locations, most recent was Kansas City, and there are none of the silver- white spheres on these images. Thi begs the question, why registration marks on some images and not on others. One other point. These spots or whatever are too large and block out too much information for registration marks. Besides, what's the matter with the old fashioned cross-hatching? Why sloppy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 01:20:33 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:49:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Ledger >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:29:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:59 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>If they are registration marks they are a fuzzy and imprecise >>representation of same. Usually crosshairs or right angled marks >>- reticles or graticules, Latin or Fr. - are scribed >>right into a thin glass between lenses. Note Lunar photos, >>etc. >Yes, I agree that most other such marks HAVE to be sharp. I was >really just parroting the guys assessment as best I could >remember it. Some said it was likely a drop on the camera lens >(I doubt this, it seems like there was just one aircraft based >photo at altitude which was merged with the satellite images of >the surrounding area). Some said it was some sort of watermark. >Someone even said they are thumbtacks. This assumes many photos >of the area and some sort of wallboard is used to hold them in >place when a photomosai is made. >>Why would this particular satellite - or aircraft - camera >>resort to such an imprecise method? Additionally, some of the >>white fuzzy dots are only half visible. >Yeah, its odd. >>Not solved for me as yet. >>How about a high altitude scientific balloon - 300-400 feet in >>diameter, or smaller - hanging nearly motionless in the same >>spot for an hour or so, with the aircraft shooting on different >>east west tracks and getting parallex images of the same object >>each time? >We would have to know for sure how the photo was created. >I assumed it was 1 photo, so the parallax method doesn't work. I don't know if it was just one. But since most photo-capable satellites are in roughly north-south orbits and it takes 90 plus minutes for the next pass, parallax is highly unlikely. But how many shots are taken of the same area during the same pass. Would not something seen in shot [or scan] number one possibly be seen in shots number 2 and 3 if they are exposed close enough together to be seen on 2 and 3 then when they are put together as a mosaic the parallex would show the same one three times. >>This would make the image appear to be in different places and >>fuzzy due to the focal length if the balloon was thousands of >>feet closer to the aircraft - if these are aircraft - as >>platform shots. >More have been found in L.A.!! >http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.134822,-117.603793&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k&hl=en I couldn't get this URL to work. Is it clipped, maybe? It wasn't wrapped. Maybe the link has expired. >Unless these identical objects are covering our skies over our >cities, it seems some pretty prosaic explanation it likely and >hardly worth our time to find out (unless you have nothing >better to do!). Too early I think for a prosaic explanation, unless you want to consider some possible connection to the UFO fleet theory. >Remember that the government is covering up everything about UFOs. If so, they are doing a piss-poor job of it. >So that means there should not be any images of UFOs in >these photos. As you know, not all satellites are controlled by the "gov". Is there any way we can determine which satellite[s] was/were used? Since you have determined that there are more of these in satellite shots of LA, then there are likely others as well. If the same satellite was used in each case chances are it has a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Brazil's New UFO Disclosure Stance From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 01:26:36 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:53:27 -0400 Subject: Brazil's New UFO Disclosure Stance I knew sooner than later foreign powers would see the light and start spilling the beans. Why? Because they know, thanks to most of you, that the one hotbed issue the U.S. and the U.K. cherish most is the UFO issue. These links are to posts I had made on this list last year: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/may/m26-006.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/aug/m06-008.shtml As I had stated in a post, above, I couldn't figure out how every country on Earth could be so UFO sensitive and cover up every UFO story etc. Now Brazil, following Mexico and if memory serves France and Belgium are moving more to the openness we've been fighting for. The big player is going to be China. Their UFO community is astounding in size. I doubt very much if 'the' breaking UFO story is going to come out of America even if it were caught on TV over some large metropolitan area like Phoenix, Arizona.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Michael Salla - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 02:14:54 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:00:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Michael Salla - Gates >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:09:51 -0300 >Subject: Re: Michael Salla >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:33:15 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Michael Salla <snip> >>This is nothing but the indulgence of your subjective biases to >>dismiss whistleblower testimonies that have been investigated by >>competent researchers, and found to have merit. >Investigation of whistleblower testimonies has to include >verification of claims that should be easy to verify, not just >deciding that because they sound and look honest, they must be >telling the truth. Listers, Stan and Michael, Stan makes an excellent case for the various stroke jobs and cunning liars that have been around for years. I recall that one of the more serious Roswell 'witnesses' (I don't recall the name at this instant) who told various stories over the years and was taken very seriously, then was discovered to have been telling bogus tales. Apparently he told them face to face, very convincingly, over the years. I don't recall if it was the famous "jewell encrusted helmet" story-teller, but there have been a number of those around. Witnesses telling stories should be checked out _before_ repeating the tale all over the Internet, Coast-to-Coast, and other venues. Look at the Dan Burisch story that got traction until a journalist checked into his back ground, found a bankruptcy and other problem issues... including employment and others. Pretty well everybody that promoted him and his story as gospel truth, never to be doubted, has pretty much backed away from him and the story. Don't forget the 'top drawer' 'deep throat', 'intelligence' community source who spewed the tale about ETs landing on a mountain top in Arizona. The landing didn't happen, but none the less the gulliable bought into it... until the next day. You had the one dude who spent many, many months telling stories how ET radio waves would bathe the earth in January of 1997 and we would start a new day for humanity, blah, blah, blah. It didn't happen, but the people whose ears were pricked by the tale bought it hook line and sinker until it failed, then nobody wanted to talk about it. Don't forget all the Y2K doom and gloomists who were so utterly convinced of disaster that they had all these communitys in remote areas, where all the Y2K disaster believers could get homes and prepare for the end etc etc. It didn't happen, and that fact was apparent by January 1 2000, but none the less people bought the tales and stories for 6 years previously. Stan is correct that these stories and people should be check out. I might add _before_ they get told all over the Internet
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:02:19 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:33:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 23:52:13 +0100 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:43:03 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:25 -0300 >>>Subject: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>>I held this information until the last minute because it is very >>>sensitive. I even thought that I should wait a little longer to >>>send this message. However, on other hand, the information that >>>it contains is so significant and important that I decided I >>>should share with you now. >>This UFO disclosure in Brazil will certainly settle a >>trascendental change in Brazilian Ufology and open those >>government doors to talk and discuss the UFO phenomena at all >>levels in a significative advance in pro of the UFO research. ><snip> >>It's time to make a reflection on these events and ask our >>ufologist colleagues in the US and the UK: >>Now it's your turn partners. What are you going to do for your >>country ? >I watch this development with interest. If I could make one >request, it would be a plea not to demonize the government and >the military, should the files not meet your expectations in >terms of alignment with your belief system. It would be easy in >such circumstances to start making allegations about >disinformation. Such accusations are easy to make but hard to >prove. Nick, nothing like that will happen. In fact, the disclosure already performed did not match our expectation, be we all understand that we are in the middle of a process, or actually, in the beginning of a process that will take time. We are prepared to keep pressuring in the proper way to get the results. Thanks for the advice, very appreciated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:06:17 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:40:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:43:03 +0000 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >[List only - not for distribution or public posting-ebk] >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:25 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>[List only - not for distribution or public posting-ebk] >>Dear Errol and Listers: >>I held this information until the last minute because it is very >>sensitive. I even thought that I should wait a little longer to >>send this message. However, on other hand, the information that >>it contains is so significant and important that I decided I >>should share with you now. ><snip> >This UFO disclosure in Brazil will certainly settle a >trascendental change in Brazilian Ufology and open those >goverment doors to talk and discuss the UFO phenomena at all >levels in a significative advance in pro of the UFO research. >This new task accomplished is the result of a dedicated and >serious effort of all of the brazilian ufologists collagues as >well as the brazilian people in pursuing the truth, an historic >event that again will surprise the world. >Now Brazil and Mexico share another common achievement in our >mutual UFO Disclosures given by our authorities and our >recognizement to them for finally hearing and answer our >requests for many years to open their communication channels >towards the civilian research and acknowledge the reality of the >UFO Phenomena, a reality that involves all the social spheres of >our countries. Thank you very much indeed, Santiago. I must say - and I am glad to - that our efforts gained great incentive after the Campeche Sedena Case, in 2004. The example set by Mexican authorities and UFO researchers in their approach made us realize that it could happen down here, in Brazil, as well. And because of that I have been feeding our military with constant info about the Campeche Sedena Case and how Mexican authorities handled the issue. I am sure that example made some of our military think about their position.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:07:38 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:43:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: Lavinia Pallotta <galactica.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:47:40 +0200 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:25 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] <snip> >>This is a very short note to let you know that the Brazilian >>Government, through the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) will finally >>do its formal official UFO disclosure tomorrow, May 20. The >>disclosure is the direct result of the intense pressure by >>UFOs: Freedom of Information Now, the campaign started by the >>Brazilian UFO Magazine in April 2004, and co-ordinated by me. It >>has been a long year of much work for us to reach to this point. >>Please see: http://www.ufo.com.br/secrecy.php <anip> >Congratulations from Italy to A.J.Gevaerd and to the Brazilian >UFO community for such a great work. We are all waiting for the >next developments. Many thanks, Lavinia. Your support, and that of other Italian colleagues, is much appreciated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:13:16 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:46:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:18:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] <snip> >Congratulations my friend on a major and historical >accomplishment! It does my heart good to see your country open >up its UFO files. I can only hope that one by one, other nations >follow the example the Brazilians and the Mexican people has set >and demand from their respective governments that any >information relating to UFOs be made a matter of public record. >So that anyone may access the reports and data. >You are to be commended for a job very well done A. J. Bravo! >Bravisimo, my friend!!! Thanks, John. It is indeed a nice accomplishment, yes. But we are still in the very first steps of a long road that is the process to have all the info we want fully released. We will eventually get there. Thanks for your support.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:16:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:50:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:20:29 +0200 (CEST) >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow [List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:25 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>[List only - not for distribution or public posting--ebk] <snip> >This is a good news to hear. The important thing now, in my >view, is to quietly and dispassionately analyze the information >made public, in order to find out which events really pose a >challenge to conventional explanations. It takes time and it >will require method and work far from media pressures. Yes, Vicente. This is the procedure we will take. Once the material we request is fully released, we will start working in a very scientific way to determine the nature of the incidents described in the military reports. By the way, this is precisely what the military expect from us, since this disclosure is only one part of our request - the other part is that we, the civilian UFO researchers, can work together with the military to analyze all data regarding to "Traffic H", that is how UFOs are described by them in Brazil.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 'Fleet' Is Biased Term From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:51:56 -0400 Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? The various menaings of the noun "fleet" include naval/boat fleet (~30% usage), aircraft fleet (~30%), car or truck fleet (~30%) and obscure meanings (<10%). Thus, you cannot of a fleet of meteors/bolides/ball lightning/balloons/ birds/angels/ demons/giant unknown spores/amorphous cloud life forms/ectoplasma. By the very term "fleet", one implies intelligence and a vehicle before one has even begun to properly address the 'intelligence' of the phenomena or even 'vehicleness'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:49:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:19:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Smith >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 01:20:33 -0300 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:29:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >>I assumed it was 1 photo, so the parallax method doesn't work. >I don't know if it was just one. But since most photo-capable >satellites are in roughly north-south orbits and it takes 90 >plus minutes for the next pass, parallax is highly unlikely. But >how many shots are taken of the same area during the same pass. >Would not something seen in shot [or scan] number one possibly >be seen in shots number 2 and 3 if they are exposed close enough >together to be seen on 2 and 3 then when they are put together >as a mosaic the parallex would show the same one three times. I do not think it was a satellite photo. >>More have been found in L.A.!! >I couldn't get this URL to work. Is it clipped, maybe? It wasn't >wrapped. Maybe the link has expired. Links are at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/44276669.nul/13645955/ These I checked again and worked with Internet Explorer: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.134822,-117.603793&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.136710,-117.652073&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.137053,-117.555599&spn=0.0,0.0&t=k&hl=en >>Unless these identical objects are covering our skies over our >>cities, it seems some pretty prosaic explanation it likely and >>hardly worth our time to find out (unless you have nothing >>better to do!). >Too early I think for a prosaic explanation, unless you want to >consider some possible connection to the UFO fleet theory. Ha! Give me raw images instead of these collages and I will sit up and take notice. >>So that means there should not be any images of UFOs in >>these photos. >As you know, not all satellites are controlled by the "gov". Its true that other governments have some nice satellites. But, if there is a coverup, then the right people will be where they need to be to do the covering up, whomever takes the photos. >Is there any way we can determine which satellite[s] was/were >used? Since you have determined that there are more of these in >satellite shots of LA, then there are likely others as well. If >the same satellite was used in each case chances are it has a >glitch. I don't think it is a satellite. The resolution of satellites is shown clearly when you go outside the urban areas. The urban areas have the high resolution aircraft coverage. Terraserver shows such images too. The resolution is great but they are not satellites. Ask yourself, if they were all satellite images wouldn't the entire Google map image for the whole nation be the same resolution? They are not because the satellite image resolution is relatively poor but the urban areas have had aircraft photo overflights and that image collection is used
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 10:02:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:21:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? - Sandow >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:30:29 -0300 >Subject: Re: Google Maps Captures UFO? >One other point. These spots or whatever are too large and >block out too much information for registration marks. >Besides, what's the matter with the old fashioned >cross-hatching? Why sloppy spots with no definition as to center? Has anybody asked Google what these things are? Research 101. That's where you start. They might provide a very
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:51:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:32:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: Pedro Cunha <pedro.cunha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:11:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>This is a broad announcement for the International UFO >>Community, forums and lists over the internet, general public >>and media: >>Brazilian Military Recognize UFO Research And Release Classified >>Information >Congratulations to you all. As you know I was present the >evening before the main event, on May 20th, when CBU comission >signed the documents to be presented/delivered to the Brazilian >Air Force and other Brazilian authorities, including the >Defense Minister. Please allow me to add my congratulations. This is a major event in world ufology, and we all owe a debt of gratitude to those who made this happy development possible. I certainly look
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 10:34:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:39:37 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Hebert >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:16:24 -0500 >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video <snip> >- The Location is well away from the AFB Test Range and in fact >over a dry and somewhat populated area, so flare drops would be >illegal and dangerous. <snip> Dear Rob: Can you please share a daytime photograph taken from the same spot where you stood and facing the same direction where you obtained the original images? Thank you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 23 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:42:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy On Mon, 23 May 2005 07:33:44 -0400 UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>writes: >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:42:45 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal <snip> >If you cut a paper copy of the periodic table in the following >way you will see some interesting things: >A) Cut out the entire table. >B) Cut between elements 12 & 20 and along the line below 13 over > to 18 (do not cut below any of the inerts.) >C) Tape the right edges of 4 & 12 to the left edges of 5 & 13 >D) Cut along the line from the top of 56 to the top of 85 >E) Cut between 57 & 72 & between 89 & 104. >F) Cut out the section 58-71 & 90-103. > >G) Tape the section you just cut out between 57 & 72 and between > 89 & 104. >H) Tape the edges of 1 & 2 together, back-to-back. >You now have a nice little 3-D model of the elements per the S, >P ,D, & F electron orbitals <G>of quantum mechanics. By >aligning your model in various ways you can now deduce a lot of >chemical and physical properties of the elements. And perhaps >predict the properties of 'new elements'. John: I did the cuttings and now I have something that looks like a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Dr. Harley Rutledge/Project Identification [was: From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:05:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:59:55 -0400 Subject: Dr. Harley Rutledge/Project Identification [was: >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:09:18 -0400 >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:10:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video <snip> >>In "Project Identification" Plate 27, there is an image dated >>March 27, 1973, "Time exposure of approximately 2 minutes taken >>by Gary Sutton at Millers High Point, Piedmont Mo using a Petri >>35 mm camera loaded with infrared sensitive film and a lens of >>400 mm folcal length." <snip> >I stand corrected. I had long ago forgotten about Project >Identification, which I read nearly 30 years ago. What I do >recall from that is the weird image he got when he photographed >what appeared to be a single, rather dim ball of light that went >past the area where he had his camera. The image shows jiggly, >wiggly streaks of light that seem to bear little if any >resemblance to what he saw. >Haven't heard a peep from Rutledge since he became involved in >the DMSP photo case that is described on my web site. His >involvement was in 1985 or '86. I=92m a former member of both NICAP and APRO back in the early 1960s. Back in the 1960s and 1970s I used to regularly read Dr. Harley Rutledge=92s (Ph.D.; former head of the Physics Dept. at Southeast Missouri State University [SEMO] in Cape Girardeau, MO) monthly - and sometimes even weekly - reports in the major St. Louis newspapers about his ongoing southeast Missouri UFO field investigations. I also have a copy of excellent book, Project Identification -- The First Scientific Field Study Of UFO Phenomena (1981; hardcover; publ. Prentice-Hall; ISBN 0-13-730713-6). After learning that Dr Rutledge was scheduled to speak at a UFO conference in 1997, I wrote a letter to him asking if he would be interested in coming up to the St. Louis area to speak to one of the current UFO groups. I received a signed letter of response from Dr. Rutledge that came in an envelope which bore the SEMO print seal along with "PROJECT IDENTIFICATION" pre- printed in the upper left/return address corner. (His letter inside, though, was on typed on plain white paper.) Here=92s the entire text of his response letter -- dated: July 7, 1997 -- to me. (For privacy concerns, I=92ve omitted my home address, and Dr. Rutledge=92s home address, too.): ----- "Bob Soetebier [home address] July 7, 1997 Dear Bob: I am reluctant to inform you that I discontinued my UFO presentations several years ago, though I did contemplate a presentation at the 34th National UFO Convention in Springfield, Ohio, on September 6, 1997. I was offered a nice sum of money but I declined because my wife wants to be in Washington, D.C. for several weeks where two of our three grandsons live; the other in Boulder, CO. I suspect most of the world will focus their eyes (via TV) on the MARS device. It should sustain our interest for a long, long time. Sincerely, [signed] Harley Rutledge Dr. Harley D. Rutledge [home address] -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:10:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:56:29 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? <snip> Extra, extra! Read all about it!!! Pot calls kettle black!!!!! <LMAO> "Biased?" I'll bet your tongue burned even for just thinking the word. Funny how you're the one who keeps using terms such as 'biased" and 'need for attention.' No, someone who was declaring an open case closed and who just happened to have that very solution to the case published in a 'skeptic's' magazine couldn't possibly be "biased" now, could he? Gimme a break man. Just who is it that you think you're fooling with this stuff? Ever hear the expression, 'as transparent as a pane of glass?'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew.nul-tel.net> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:36:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:59:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:13:16 -0300 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow <snip> I read some where yesterday that no one viewing these files can take notes, make recordings or take photographs. Is that true and if so how do you plan to let anyone in on what the files say and photographs show?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: A. J. Gevaerd -Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:55:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:01:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: Pedro Cunha <pedro.cunha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:11:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>This is a broad announcement for the International UFO >>Community, forums and lists over the internet, general public >>and media: >>Brazilian Military Recognize UFO Research And Release Classified >>Information ><snip> >A.J. Gevaerd and CBU, >Congratulations to you all. As you know I was present the >evening before the main event, on May 20th, when CBU comission >signed the documents to be presented/delivered to the Brazilian >Air Force and other Brazilian authorities, including the >Defense Minister. Thanks, Pedro. You are in the "team" for sure as one of the pioneer UFO researchers who have helped us all to reach to this very important moment. >I am witness to the seriousness behind the work you have >done towards the disclosure of official documents about >UFOs in Brazil, mainly with the campaign you lead, gathering >signatures from whoever decides/wishes to request information >about UFOs in Brazil. I really appreciate your recognition of my work and hope that my work can meet your expectations in the future as well. We still have much to do. >Also the Brazilian Air Force deserves much respect for the >courage to, finally, go public and allow Ufologists in this >country to have access to classified documents, at no matter what >security level, about UFOs and similar events. >A big first step into what is yet to come, I hope. >I, myself, think that now we can move on and have an official >joint comission between the military and civilian ufologists to >study the UFO phenomenon in Brazil. This is definitely our next step. I certainly look very much
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO From: A. J. Gevaerd -Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:58:32 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:51:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>From: Pedro Cunha <pedro.cunha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:11:26 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:58:47 -0300 >>>Subject: Brazilian Military Release Classified UFO Information >>>This is a broad announcement for the International UFO >>>Community, forums and lists over the internet, general public >>>and media: >>>Brazilian Military Recognize UFO Research And Release Classified >>>Information >>Congratulations to you all. As you know I was present the >>evening before the main event, on May 20th, when CBU comission >>signed the documents to be presented/delivered to the Brazilian >>Air Force and other Brazilian authorities, including the >>Defense Minister. >Please allow me to add my congratulations. This is a major event >in world ufology, and we all owe a debt of gratitude to those >who made this happy development possible. I certainly look >forward to learning what these documents have to say. Many thanks from myself and on behalf of all members of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), which innitiated and mantained the campaign for the freedom of UFO Information in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:14:20 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field Dear A.J., Only a year after the Mexican Air Force case released by SEDENA - through Jaime Maussan on a memorable day - you and all our Brazilian collagues received the recognition of the Brazilian Air Force, who openedtheir doors to discuss and share their UFO files kept classified for many years. This is the prize you all deserved for your continuous effort, insisting on a UFO Disclosure to the Brazilian people, a campaign that took a definitive path in May 2004 with the initiative: UFOs: Freedom Of Information Now. I must say that we are very glad and proud that our Mexican Air Force case along with the SEDENA UFO Disclosure influenced your own initiative in becoming a successful. Now our mutual Ufologies are more close in brotherhood and we shall continue colaborating with each other. We have now settled a reinforced strength among us to motivate our collagues ufologists in other countries to pursue the same objectives. Our new slogan is: "It Can Be Done!" "Si Se Puede", as we say in Mexico. This new force among us will defeat any last attempt to reverse history and minimize the effects of this new brazilian UFO Disclosure. We know some attacks, discredit and debunking attempts will come by - we know who. These deceitful agents of disinformation and pro-cover-up campaigns will start very soon. We must watchful for who is going to come first trying to discredit the Brazilian disclosure inventing whatever naive argument to deceive the people. These disinformative individuals have been around for sometime and we know very well who they are. Ademar, your military UFO Disclosure is an historic event, a trascendental task accomplished by all of you in these significant times we are living in - a perfect example that proves once again that the military knows and cares about the UFO Phenomena, and it's just a matter of a concerted effort among all of ufology to convince our goverments how important is to open their doors to the people and acknowledge what the people have been witnessing for several decades, an undeniable phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:20:24 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:53:26 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide Joe, I've snipped your extremely lengthy post, but hope that I've nonetheless answered all your questions about the British Government's UFO Project. <snip> >I note that you wrote in relation to an earlier version of the >article at TNA which you addressed at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/dec/m08-007.shtml >"The National Archives research notes on UFOs were adapted from >an article that Georgina Bruni and I wrote, documenting the >British Government's handling of the UFO issue up until the >Fifties." >I am slightly puzzled by the different reactions by you to each >of these. In response to the earlier article, you don't appear >to have contacted TNA about proper crediting of the article, yet >on the latest occasion, you seem to have gone to some lengths, >causing at least two re-writes of the article. Perhaps you would >care to explain the different reactions? > I also see that the latest version at: >http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=394 >has not only removed any reference to Georgina having worked for >the MoD, but also any reference to you having done so. Do you >know why that is? The National Archives Research Note 6, on UFOs, was adapted from the Official History article that Georgina Bruni and I wrote several years ago. I wasn't consulted on this, but since I state that all material on my website may be freely used, for non- commercial purposes, I wasn't concerned. Recently, however, I noticed that Research Note 6 had been expanded to give a list of file references provided by ufologist Dave Clarke. But somehow, his name had appeared at the end of the Research Note, as if he'd written the Official History. As this was an obvious falsehood, I had it corrected. When the revised version wrongly stated that Georgina Bruni worked for the MOD, I had it corrected again. I wasn't insistent on my MOD background being mentioned, as I'd been writing to The National Archives in a private capacity. Indeed, being named as an MOD employee could have been misleading, as it might have implied that Research Note 6 was an official MOD publication. <snip> >In respect to the Flying Saucer Working Party at the site >referred to above, you describe a series of clues which led >researchers to request the document from the MoD. <snip> This isn't correct. If you re-read the Official History you'll see that I was pointing to clues that should have alerted ufologists to the existence of these documents. I wasn't commenting on how various ufologists actually learned of their existence and obtained them. >Please can you elaborate on exactly how and when you became >aware of the FSWP document and the date that you requested a >copy of it? Georgina Bruni obtained them in 2001, but I don't know precisely when. She learned of their existence through unrelated research into the Cold War. I didn't find out that she had the papers until later. >I further note that you have pointedly avoided mentioning the >work of Clarke and Roberts by name in respect to the discovery >of the document. Are you willing to correct that situation now? Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to some furious abuse from certain quarters. <snip> I've snipped out much of the rest of your post, which relates to the scope and scale of the British Government's UFO Project, and the extent to which it was drawn into looking at phenomena such as alien abductions, crop circles and cattle mutilations. The best way I can explain this to you is to say that the Project was reactive. If we received reports of such phenomena, we'd look into them. It didn't matter whether or not it was in our terms of reference. My article on the Ministry of Defence's involvement with the crop circle mystery gives an illustration of how this worked in practice, though clearly neither this article nor the chapter on crop circles in my book Open Skies Closed Minds can possibly capture everything that took place: http://www.nickpope.net/crop_circles.htm You also asked how the British Government's UFO Project compared to Project Blue Book. We were always the poor relation and if that's your point, I can only agree with you. Naturally, I wish we'd been better resourced. However, the aims of the UK and US projects were the same: to research and investigate the UFO phenomenon, with a view to assessing whether there was evidence of anything of defence significance, and specifically, any threat to national security. >Since investigations into the defence implications of >alleged UFO sightings might involve highly classified material >it was agreed that S4(Air) has no "need to know" about the >enquiries made by any specialist branch in the course of an >investigation. It followed that detailed reports on such >investigations could not be included in the S4 files which would >ultimately be disclosed when UFO reports were opened to the >public." <snip> I'm afraid you've misunderstood the document you quote. What this actually means is that methods and sources aren't discussed. All cases (public and military) would still go to the civilian secretariat division, as they did during my tour of duty. If you look at the Subject Indicator Code on any UFO signals in the public domain, you'll notice that the secretariat is the action addressee. What the document means is that if the Defence Intelligence Staff found an explanation, they wouldn't necessarily share information on how they'd reached that conclusion. You're not the first to suggest that the division where I worked was some sort of 'shop window', dealing only with UFO cases from the public. However, documents recently released under the FOIA are demonstrating what I've tried to explain for some time, namely that the civilian secretariat division and the Defence Intelligence Staff worked together on all UFO investigations. If you think about it logically, this is the only way that the relationship could work, and that UFO sightings could be properly investigated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Davie From: Tim Davie <drwho_who.nul> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:23:11 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Davie >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >- The Location is well away from the AFB Test Range and in >fact over a dry and somewhat populated area, so flare drops >would be illegal and dangerous. Could you state the location? I know AZ pretty well and would be able to confirm your statement. >- The color is inconsistant with flares. Camera equipment plus transfer to compressed video format could all contribute to low video quality. Yet, the video online is that of red/orange lights, matching the C-130 video and pictures. What color are flares supposed to be may I ask? >- The duration seems too short for flares. I already presented a video of a C-130 dropping flares, of which the duration of the flares burning was nearly identical to that of the video in question, 6-7 seconds. In light of the C-130 video would you still stick to that statement? And what is the average time for flares? >- The vector is consistant with F-16's I've seen fly >in the area, while the speed and appearance is not. Yet the Arch of the 'lights' falling is exactly as one would expect when dropping something from a moving plane. The C-130 pics and video show that. >I am open to the possibility, however the data >currently does >not support that scenario IMO. Well, I am not sure what data you are looking at exactly but it's my conclusion these are flares being dropped from a plane. The video in question has the following in common with the C-130 video. Same colors. Same duration. Same falling trajectory as you would expect from dropping something from a plane. I'm really not sure what data you are presenting here, yet, that could qualify this video as anything but terrestrial in nature. And IMO, flares from a moving plane. References: http://www.snopes.com/photos/c130.asp http://dhadams.com/C130-Angel/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 24 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:24:24 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:29:11 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:26:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew.nul-tel.net> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:36:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:13:16 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Brazilian Military To Open UFO Files Tomorrow ><snip> >I read some where yesterday that no one viewing these files can >take notes, make recordings or take photographs. Is that true >and if so how do you plan to let anyone in on what the files say >and photographs show? Yes, it is true. All the files we could exam where on site at the Brazilian Aerospace Defense Command (Comdabra) and highly classified. We were only allowed to exam them and not to take pictures or make notes. It was said to us that this procedure will only be effective untill the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) can _legally_ release those files, which is expected for any time now. The good news is that FAB finally admited to have such files and let us see them.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:15:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:30:36 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:10:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? ><snip> >Extra, extra! Read all about it!!! Pot calls kettle black!!!!! ><LMAO> Concern over the use of the word 'flotillas' or 'fleets' or 'armadas', now, seems needlessly strident given Farmington in 1950 and Washington in 1952... despite all the Mexican accounting, and forgetting accounts and artistic representations from the middle ages and even earlier. Pelicans are famous for their red herrings. I just wish they wouldn't pass them through their digestive systems first... >"Biased?" I'll bet your tongue burned even for just thinking the >word. Funny how you're the one who keeps using terms such as >'biased" and 'need for attention.' With regard to skeptibunkers, pelicanists, and other passionate klasskurtxians, I suspect that like their neoconic brethern, they are always guilty of what they would first accuse. Prentending to be the soul of rationality or the remotest arbiter of reason... or ready example of balance... (?) ...is just ludicrous. >No, someone who was declaring an open case closed and who just >happened to have that very solution to the case published in a >'skeptic's' magazine couldn't possibly be "biased" now, could >he? Gotta keep up with the talking points... gotta keep the unknown at bay... gotta keep that plausible deniability alive. >Gimme a break man. Just who is it that you think you're fooling >with this stuff? Ever hear the expression, 'as transparent as a >pane of glass?' More like computer a screen after you've productively sneezed on it, I should think. >Give it a rest debunker. We _all_ know where you stand. No need >to be redundant. We 'get it' (and where you are coming from,) >already. Give him a break... he thought he had a hope of a hope of getting a little bit of gym shorts teased out of the casing for a locker rupture he'd use to raise a little duplicitous avian dust, you know? Besides, lack of courage, intellectual or otherwise, is a cross to bear. I almost feel sorry for him. Then I remember that to me, for my money, drawn through my filters (which are designed a little differently than usual you may agree) avians are only what stands between us and a fully funded 'Manhattan or Genome' project... Verily, the point is not lost on Mexico, South America, South Korea, Japan, and China. Hell's bells, We'll still be lighting our farts when they are on a hydrogen economy living in the 22nd century... It's all a little bigger than we're allowed to know. alienview.nul -:|:- www.AlienView.net Still... stand with me in desert's dark sans city-light or shine. The air is cold and dry and stark... a moment froze in time... The starfield is... immense... out there, a billion shards of light... bedazzling us with brilliance born from blue and red burned bright. There is no cloud or moon to hide this... grandeur... halting breath... It is the bald antithesis of darkness... and even ageless death... ...A million, million points ...off white... all glitter in your view. They symbolize near endless time... producing me and you! They are the... pressure cookers... of the matter that we mind, an ageless mass of living things considers what it finds. Down 'here' produced are 'people'... some are humans that we know, but crows and whales and wolves and bees, much loved by us? Well, frankly, no. Now pick one star, just any star. Pick one from all the millions! The 'space' that star will mask from view...(?) a trifling, spatial minion. Now take that minion's picture, then blow it up all huge... This photograph can stop your heart! It amplifies you views. It's not mere stars you're seeing as the picture fills your eyes! It's billions of new galaxies... as STARS within that striking sky! Now tell me we're 'alone' in this, or the state of God's proud art! We bejewel creation's crown, or light a sad Earth's fart? It's clear we're pre-pubescent (...if passed the womb at all!). It's clear our 'immaturity' could insure our failing fall. It's clear in layered evidence we're pompous, insincere... but UFOs remain extant to be our new frontier! They are the best 'sedition' if you think on it at all. That's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:22:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:32:38 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >I do. In as much as this may be the reflex expression of the ready and inflexible ideologue? Pity. There are fleets of 'something'... be assured... past, present and likely future.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:02:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:53:17 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:10:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >Extra, extra! Read all about it!!! Pot calls kettle black!!!!! > <LMAO> I didn't think I was addressing you, Sir. But if you want to it's your right in a free society to offer an opinion. I thought you were just going to let me twist in the wind, Sir John. Please just ignore me and maybe I will just give up and go away. >"Biased?" I'll bet your tongue burned even for just thinking >the word. Sorry, this does not translate well. >Funny how you're the one who keeps using terms >such as 'biased" and 'need for attention.' Basically, its just logic I am using and a dictionary. If UFO research is to be respectable (yes, that is a dream isn't it?), lets not used biased terms. >No, someone who was declaring an open case closed and >who just happened to have that very solution to the case >published in a 'skeptic's' magazine couldn't possibly be >"biased" now, could he? If one does analysis to back up ones conclusion then that is not biased. Also, I did not receive _any_ detailed refutation of the copious data I provided to reach my conclusions from _you_, Mr. Velez. Believe me, I am open to the possibility of error in so complex an analysis. But you offered only insults and arm wavings. In fact, anyone who sent me comments on the Campeche analysis were taken seriously by me to try to resolve and improve my work. Really, I can understand why you did not bother with a detailed refutation of my analysis, because it _is_ very mathematical, complex. But I provide formula, derivations, data sources, etc. >Gimme a break man. Just who is it that you think >you're fooling with this stuff? Ever hear the >expression, 'as transparent as a pane of glass?' Uh, what? I am asking a simple question. Perhaps, in Spanish there is another meaning of the word "Fleet" that does not translate to English. Seriously, is this the case? It is hard to deny logically that "fleet" is a leading term that guides the public to think these are vehicles under intelligent control as opposed to a more open minded approach, since you have not identified them (you call them UFOs), they could be NON-vehicles under _non_-intelligent _non_- control. We don't know. >Give it a rest debunker. We _all_ know where >you stand. No need to be redundant. We 'get it' > (and where you are coming from,) already. Humm, debunker? That seems like you are trying to insult me. Anyway, its just words. Anyway, by giving it a rest, you mean,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:19:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:57:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >I did the cuttings and now I have something that looks like a >swan and two bandages on my fingers. >Could you show a picture of the thing you ended up with? Looks about right. Similar, anyway, if not exactly the same: http://periodictable.com/pages/AAE_SeaborgPhoto.html You've _not_ cut all the way to the inert elements and it should be, to show the full effects. AFAIK I invented it in the 7th grade. Looks like others did as well, perhaps at an older age <G>. H & He should be back to back, as they are only S orbital, with He above the fixed Ne (the noble elements remain the attachment point up & down as all orbitals are filled). It now all lines up by electron orbitals (across (s,p,d,f)) and by "free" positions to donate or accept electrons, depending if you are going left to right or right to left as you "slide" the bits back in below what's above them. And chemical properties pretty much depend on that and the mass. Well now I have a thing to do, removal of the fuel tank from my winter automobile, this to replace a bad fuel pump.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:19:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:03:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:14:20 +0000 >Subject: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >This new force among us will defeat any last attempt to >reverse history and minimize the effects of this new >brazilian UFO Disclosure. We know some attacks, discredit >and debunking attempts will come by - we know who. These >deceitful agents of disinformation and pro-cover-up >campaigns will start very soon. Wow! You guys are pretty suspicious! Its interesting that you seem to feel that the disclosed data will help your case in the reality of UFOs (as alien spaceships, since we all agree that UFOs, by defintion, obviously exist). Perhaps, the data stored in the files will be able to be analyzed by new methods to provide a more prosaic explanation to the UFO phenomena in each case. You don't know. >We must watchful for who is going to come first trying to >discredit the Brazilian disclosure inventing whatever naive >argument to deceive the people. These disinformative
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:05:27 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? Hi, Who on this List enjoys being treated like a dope? I assume you'd prefer the word 'flocks'. So what? Nobody pretends to know what these things are, any more than they pretend photos, by themselves, will provide ultimate proof of anything. Don't you think readers know this? Don't you think your assumption is more than a little
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Brazilian Ufology Manifesto From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:11:53 -0400 Subject: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto Dear international colleagues: Here is the translation into English of the Brazilian Ufology Manifesto, officially presented to the Commander of the Air Force, the Minister of Defense and to the President of Brazil, on May 20th. The document has been accepted and there is a strong promise that the Brazilian UFO researchers requests will be achieved. The first step was the sucessfull gathering with the military in Brasilia. A. J. Gevaerd, editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine head, Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU) gevaerd.nul ----- Brazilian Ufology Manifesto [Translation by Eduardo Rado] Bras=EDlia (DF), May 20th, 2005 To the Commander of the Brazilian Air Force, Air Brigadier Luis Carlos da Silva Bueno, Bras=EDlia (DF) = The Brazilian Ufological Community, represented by individual ufologists as well as by research groups, investigators, scholars, and people interested in Ufology who undersigned the document prepared for this purpose, expresses its opinion by means of this document prepared under the coordination of Revista UFO in order to address Brazilian authorities represented herein by the eminent President of Brazil and the eminent Commander of the Air Force, to present the following: (1) It is widely known that the UFO Phenomenon, noticed with the constant visits of spacecraft to our planet Earth, is genuine, real, and consistent, and so is independently confirmed by civil ufologists, as well as by military authorities worldwide for more than 50 years. (2) The Phenomenon had already had its origin sufficiently identified as far from our planetary borders. The spacecraft which so insistently visit our planet come from other civilizations, perhaps technologically more advanced than ours, and inhabit the same universe we do, although we do not know their worlds and origins. (3) Such civilizations are in a clear and unquestionable process of continuous approach to Earth and to our planetary society and, by acting this way in its maneuvers and activities, in most cases do not show any hostility to us. (4) It is clear that visits from such non-terrestrial civilizations to our planet are gradually increasing over the last years, according to domestic and international statistics, both in number and intensity, consisting of something which requires legitimate attention. (5) Considering all this, the establishment of an official program for acknowledgement, information, research, and public disclosure of the subject is urgent, in order to clarify to all Brazilians the undeniable and ever increasing extraterrestrial presence in our planet Earth. Thus, considering measures publicly adopted in different moments of our History by countries like Chile, Belgium, Spain, France, Uruguay, and China, which already acknowledged the seriousness and urgency of the problem, we respectfully recommend the Command of the Air Force of the Federative Republic of Brazil, or any of its bodies, from now on, to prepare an appropriate policy to discuss this issue in the necessary environments, formats, and levels. The Brazilian Ufological Community, in the name of all undersigned participants of the aforementioned document, with full support of the worldwide ufological community, wants to voluntarily offer its knowledge, efforts, and dedication in order to make this proposal a reality so that we have the immediate acknowledgement of the UFO Phenomenon. Thus, as a foundation stone in this process, which is to be the symbol of a positive action from our authorities, the Brazilian Ufological Community respectfully asks the Command of the Air Force to disclose its files concerning at least three specific episodes, which are specifically significant about the presence of unidentified flying objects in our Territory: (a) The Operation Prato, carried out by the I Regional Air Command (COMAR) of Bel=E9m (PA), from September to December of 1977, which produced a bulky file with more than 500 pictures and several movies about UFO maneuvers in the Amazon region, as confirmed by Colonel Uyrang=EA Bol=EDvar Soares de Hollanda Lima. (b) The mass ufological wave occurred in May 1986 over the states of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, among others, when more than 20 unidentified flying objects were observed, detected by radars, and persecuted by jets of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), as informed by the then minister of Air Force himself, air brigadier Oct=E1vio Moreira Lima. (c) The Varginha Case, happened in that city in the state of Minas Gerais on May 20th, 1996, in which members of the Brazilian Armed Forces, by means of the School of Sergeants of the Arms (EsSA), and members of the local corporation of the Fire Brigade captured at least two beings of non-terrestrial origin, according to abundant documentation obtained by ufologists and testimonials spontaneously provided by members of the military bodies which took part in the capture, treatment, and removal of the creatures. Being absolutely aware that Brazilian civil and military authorities have never neglected the situation which has been monitored with care and attention throughout last decades, and on behalf of the Brazilian National Security, we consider that the measures aforementioned are to establish the beginning of a prosperous and profitable partnership. Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), representing the Brazilian UFO Community A. J. Gevaerd (coordinator), Centro Brasileiro de Pesquisas de Discos Voadores (CBPDV), Editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine gevaerd.nul Claudeir Covo, Instituto Nacional de Investigacao de Fen=F4menos Aeroespaciais (INFA), Co-editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine claudeir.covo.nul Marco Antonio Petit, Associacao Fluminense de Estudos Ufologicos (AFEU), Co-editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine marco.petit.nul Rafael Cury, N=FAcleo de Pesquisas Ufologicas (NPU), Associacao Nacional dos Ufologos do Brasil (ANUB). npu.nul Reginaldo de Athayde, Centro de Pesquisas Ufologicas (CPU), Co-editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine reginaldo.athayde.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Secrecy News -- 05/24/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:43:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:15:08 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/24/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 49 May 24, 2005 ** THE RISE OF THE QUASI GOVERNMENT (CRS) ** RELIABLE REPLACEMENT WARHEAD PROGRAM (CRS) ** CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY OVER FEDERAL COURTS (CRS) ** A CIA INVENTORY OF PRIVACY ACT RECORDS ** NUCLEAR WEAPONS EFFECTS CALCULATOR THE RISE OF THE QUASI GOVERNMENT (CRS) Abetted by official secrecy and one-party dominance, the character of American government is undergoing a series of fundamental transformations. While the concentration of power in the executive branch continues apace, traditional mechanisms of government accountability are being diminished or dismantled, and agency actions are increasingly insulated from citizen oversight or awareness. As the role of citizens in the democratic process has declined, the importance of new constellations of power and influence has risen. One such newly prominent construct is the "quasi government," described by the Congressional Research Service as "federally related entities that possess legal characteristics of both the governmental and private sectors." "These hybrid organizations (e.g., Fannie Mae, National Park Foundation, In-Q-Tel)... have grown in number, size, and importance in recent decades," the CRS stated in a new report. "The quasi government, not surprisingly, is a controversial subject. To supporters of this trend toward greater reliance upon hybrid organizations, the proper objective of governmental management is to maximize performance and results, however defined... They tend to welcome this trend toward greater use of quasi governmental entities." "Critics of the quasi government, on the other hand, tend to view hybrid organizations as contributing to a weakened capacity of government to perform its fundamental constitutional duties, and to an erosion in political accountability, a crucial element in democratic governance...." "Time will tell whether the emergence of the quasi government is to be viewed as a symptom of decline in our democratic government, or a harbinger of a new, creative management era where the purported artificial barriers between the governmental and private sectors are breached as a matter of principle." A copy of the CRS report was obtained by Secrecy News. See "The Quasi Government: Hybrid Organizations with Both Government and Private Sector Legal Characteristics," updated May 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30533.pdf RELIABLE REPLACEMENT WARHEAD PROGRAM (CRS) The Reliable Replacement Warhead (RRW) program, a congressionally-mandated initiative intended to support a permanent nuclear weapons arsenal based on newly designed replaceable parts, is the subject of a major new report from the Congressional Research Service issued today. The CRS report, the most extensive treatment of the topic published to date, describes the origins of the controversial new nuclear weapons program, its likely impacts, and the views of supporters and opponents. The report has not been publicly released, but a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Nuclear Weapons: The Reliable Replacement Warhead Program," May 24, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32929.pdf CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY OVER FEDERAL COURTS (CRS) A new report from the Congressional Research Service examines congressional authority over the judicial branch. "Usually congressional oversight of the judicial branch is noncontroversial, but when Congress proposes to use its oversight and regulatory powers in a manner designed to affect the outcome of pending or previously decided cases, constitutional issues can be raised." "While Congress has broad power to regulate the structure, administration and jurisdiction of the courts, its powers are limited by precepts of due process, equal protection and separation of powers." See "Congressional Authority Over the Federal Courts," May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32926.pdf A CIA INVENTORY OF PRIVACY ACT RECORDS The Central Intelligence Agency provided a descriptive inventory of dozens of records systems maintained by the Agency that are subject to the Privacy Act in a 35 page notice published in the Federal Register today. "The Central Intelligence Agency has undertaken and completed a zero-based, Agency-wide review of its Privacy Act systems of records.... Rather than making numerous, piecemeal revisions, the Agency decided to draft and republish updated notices for all of its Privacy Act systems of records. By doing so, the Agency hopes to make these notices as clear and accessible to the public as possible." See the CIA Federal Register notice here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/05/fr052405.html NUCLEAR WEAPONS EFFECTS CALCULATOR The heat and blast effects of a nuclear explosive detonated in a major American city can be readily estimated using a new online tool from the Federation of American Scientists. The Nuclear Weapons Effects Calculator, devised by FAS staff member Blake Purnell, is based on data from Glasstone's canonical Effects of Nuclear Weapons. The Java-based calculator allows the user to vary the size of the modeled blast (in kilotons) as well as the height of detonation over one of 25 American cities. "This is just a very graphic way to let anyone see what the effect of a bomb on his city would be," said Ivan Oelrich, FAS strategic security project director, as quoted in Science magazine (May 13, 2005, p. 933). See the FAS Nuclear Weapons Effects Calculator here: http://tinyurl.com/5r5z6 _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Dr. Harley Rutledge/Project Identification From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:50:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:17:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Dr. Harley Rutledge/Project Identification >From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:05:35 -0500 >Subject: Dr. Harley Rutledge/Project Identification <snip> I just located these two stories on Dr Rutledge in SE Missourian.com newspaper stories. Congrats to the Rutledge's 50th Anniv. and the soon to be marriage of their son Mark next month in Dallas. http://semissourian.rustcom.net/story/138987.html Dr. Harley and Ruth Rutledge of Cape Girardeau will celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary with a weekend of events June 26 and 27, 2004. The couple was married June 26, 1954, in Taos, Mo. The Rutledges have five children: Teresa Rutledge of Great Falls, Va., Susan Kemp of Jackson, Jane Hampson of Herndon, Va., Mark Rutledge of McKinney, Texas, and Sarah Holland of Niwot, Colo. The couple has seven grandchildren: Matthew and Mark Wilson; Truman, Raleigh and Clara Hampson; Lance and Seth Holland. http://semissourian.rustcom.net/story/159284.html Buchanan-Rutledge (03/27/05) James and Yvonne Buchanan of Dallas, Texas, announce the engagement of their daughter, Juliette Rose Buchanan, to Mark Stephen Rutledge of McKinney, Texas. He is the son of Dr. Harley and Ruth Rutledge of Cape Girardeau. Buchanan received a bachelor of music degree from Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University, master of music from Rice University, and is currently a doctoral candidate at the University of Houston. She is on the faculty at Baylor University and is principal harpist with Plano Symphony in Plano, Texas. Rutledge is a 1980 graduate of Central High School, and received a bachelor of science degree in physics from Southeast Missouri State University. He is North American sales manager with Summit
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Andy Roberts <andy.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:26:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:32:37 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - [Non-Subscriber Post] List, Neither Dave Clarke nor I post to UpDates but Nick Pope's recent posting cannot be allowed to pass unremarked. >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:53:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >Georgina Bruni obtained them in 2001, but I don't know precisely >when. She learned of their existence through unrelated research >into the Cold War. I didn't find out that she had the papers >until later. >>I further note that you have pointedly avoided mentioning the >>work of Clarke and Roberts by name in respect to the discovery >>of the document. Are you willing to correct that situation now? >Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >some furious abuse from certain quarters. This is a blatant and conscious manipulation of the facts. To call Pope and Bruni's pliagarism a 'scoop' is really beyond the pale and as an exercise in intellectual self aggrandisment it's at number 11 on the scale! Listers can easily check the truth of the matter by referring to the UpDates Archive. We did _not_ publish them first in May 2002 - we published them on 21 October 2001 in an exclusive story in The Observer, posted at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-004.shtml and http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-005.shtml Therefore, how could UFO magazine have published extracts first in April 2002? It is also a blatant lie that "numerous other ufologists and journalists" were sent the documents at the same time as we were. We obtained the documents first in May 2001 and we challenge Nick to provide documentary evidence that anyone - UFOlogist or journalist - obtained a copy before the date we published them. Georgina Bruni learned about the existence of the documents on 21 October 2001 from the Observer and UFO UpDates, and subsequently wrote to the Ministry asking for copies. Were it not for our research, the Observer scoop and our listing of the file details on our website Pope and Bruni would still not have a clue the documents existed. Indeed when we interviewed Pope on 26 February 2002 he - despite working as a clerk on the UFO desk - claimed he had no knowledge of this important part of ufological history, or of its whereabouts. What actually happened is that Pope and Bruni were so peeved that we knew about the secret British MoD files and they didn't (despite having worked for them!) that he and Georgina then decided to plagiarise our discovery and pointedly remove any mention of our role in finding these documents. Which makes Pope's claim, in relation to the TNA UFO guide, very ironic indeed: >I make no accusation of plagiarism, because all material on my >website may be freely used, for non-commercial purposes, >provided the source is quoted and it's not taken out of context. Why is it then that Pope is not prepared to acknowledge the original source of the Flying Saucer Working Party documents? How can someone who works for the MoD and claims to be reporting objectively on this subject continue to maintain this blatant misrepresentation? The fact remains that if we had not discovered these documents - after two years of hard work - they would in all probability still be sitting gathering dust in the Ministry archives. No doubt the Pope spin-machine will come up with some justifciation for lies and plagiarism but the facts remain. Isn't it about time Pope grasped the nettle and gave credit where it is due, and stopped telling such blatant lies. If this type of wilful lying is indicative of his other research we suggest that readers arm themselves with several bags of salt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:09:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:35:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Pope >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:51:20 +0200 >Subject: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET >Almost _four_ years ago, Katharina Wilson wrote: >>From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:16:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Abductees' Books/Videotaping ET - Wilson >>There is a scientifically based, >>double blind electronic monitoring of abductees going on as we >>speak, but I was asked to keep the details private until the >>experiment was completed, so we all have something very >>interesting to look forward to on that front. >One year ago, Nick Pope informed us about Professor Chris >French scientific study into the alien abduction phenomenon. >I also remember a comment, maybe by Dick Hall, about another >scientific study into the alien abduction without much more >data. >Well, I am a little upset about all those experiments that >never got published... usually because the results did not >fulfill the expectations. Can anybody update these or other >examples? Luis and List, Professor Chris French will be presenting his data at a conference in Liverpool on Saturday June 4: http://www.hope.ac.uk/anomalousexperience/programme.htm The final report should be ready soon afterwards. I will post
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:39:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:39:15 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:53:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>I further note that you have pointedly avoided mentioning the >>work of Clarke and Roberts by name in respect to the discovery >>of the document. Are you willing to correct that situation now? >Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >some furious abuse from certain quarters. Nick, Joe & List I have no horse in this race, however the argument has reverberated on so long I'd like to make an observation. Clarke and Roberts published the story of the discovery of the documents first on 21 October 2001, simultaneously in the UK national press and on their flyingsaucery website. Vide: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-004.shtml and: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-005.shtml However Nick's post allows the innocent reader to conclude that the report first came to light when the MoD volunteered a simultaneous dissemination of it to "numerous ufologists" including Clarke and Roberts in 2002. I'm sure this cannot be the effect he intends. The reality appears to be that numerous ufologists and journalists certainly requested copies of the document from the MOD _after_ its disclosure by C & R in Oct 2002, but I'm aware of no evidence prior to Oct 2002 that any ufologist possessed a copy. If they did they kept strangely quiet about it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:53:13 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Allan >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >I do. Yes, it is a bit suggestive. After nearly six decades, why is there still no collective noun for UFOs? We have a covey of quails, a pride of lions, a gaggle of geese, a shoal of fish, a murmuration (?) of starlings, etc. So what is it (or should it be) for UFOs? By the way, what are the collective noun for (a) pelicans? (b) pelicanists? (c) klasskurtzians? (d) whistleblowers? Jerry Clark may be able to help with (b) Alfred Lehmberg may help with (c).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:51:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:56:04 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >I do. Hi Martin, Remember the scene in, 'Independence Day' when Harry Connick Jr's character is describing how he prefers the, 'one knee approach' when kissing booty? I don't recall where, but something I read recently reminded me of that line from the movie for some reason.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:24:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:57:51 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Balaskas >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? >The End of SETI As We Know It? >by Mac Tonnies >http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com >When I was doing radio spots promoting my book I was asked a lot >of dumb questions, mostly in keeping with the David >Bowie/Spiders from Mars theme. But I remember one particularly >good question, I think by a DJ in Dublin. Essentially, he wanted >to know what business I had writing a book on scientific >subjects since I had no formal scientific background. (Unlike >Richard Hoagland, who didn't graduate college, I can't claim >experience as a planetarium director or advisor to Walter >Cronkite, nor can I claim to have inspired NASA with the idea to >include messages on deep-space probes.) >The gist of my answer was: Who exactly is qualified to assess >candidate artifacts on the Martian surface? The stark truth is >that there are no experts. There are no "working teams" >exploring this possibility (with the exception of the Society >for Planetary SETI Research, of which I'm a member). There's no >grant money, no exo-archaeological funds on NASA's Mars >exploration budget. Unfortunately, what we do have are lots of >pseudoskeptics content to cling to dated "straw man" arguments >in order to keep the status quo afloat - even if that means >misrepresenting or ignoring contradictory data. >It's not just Mars, of course. We've allowed a handful of >people, foremost among them Seth Shostak and Jill Tarter of the >SETI Institute, to become veritable ambassadors for the aliens >they pretend to understand so well, despite a pronounced, utter >failure to provide the hard evidence they claim is so vital. <snip> Hi Mac! Although the majority of people, including SETI scientists, talk about life beyond Earth as if it was an established fact, the sobering reality is that after all these years, we do not have more compelling evidence now than we did anytime in the past for this popular belief (with the possible exception of certain ancient historical/religious documents where our ancestors allegedly encountered intelligent beings from the heavens). This lack of compelling evidence for life beyond Earth must include the frequent accounts of strange lights in the sky and reported sightings of other such UFOs. Since there are no experts on the subject of ET life and there isn't any tangible proof either, I have offered to take up the challenge to teach the full year Natural Science course 'Life Beyond Earth' at York University this coming September. Your suggestions on just how and what to teach students enrolled in this course and sharing your thoughts, experiences and personal beliefs about this interesting subject (which, if we are honest with ourselves is very speculative at best) would be much
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:44:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:01:04 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide Dear List Apologies, in the final paragraph of my last post I mistakenly wrote 2002 instead of 2001. It should of course have read: "The reality appears to be that numerous ufologists and journalists certainly requested copies of the document from the MOD _after_ its disclosure by Clarke and Roberts in Oct 2001, but I'm aware of no evidence prior to Oct 2001 that any
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Origins Of Transhumanism From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:47:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:46:41 -0400 Subject: Origins Of Transhumanism _One_ of the origins of transhumanism dates back to the L5 Society, founded to promote space colonies in 1975. (My ghod that's a long time ago!) Anyway, some of the people involved in those days wrote a long lost short story which has now been put on a web site. http://www.l5news.org/EzekialsWheel.htm [This story was written in fits and starts in the years after the L5 Society was started--in those heady days when we could envision Solar Power Satellites paying for space colonies. I am not sure if it was submitted to a publisher. Not long ago I found a typed copy, scanned it and converted to HTML. Sorry for any remaining OCR errors. Brad Barber and I contributed the technology, Carolyn the food descriptions, Annita the characters and most of the story line. The authors all wrote on it at times. The technical elements are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:23:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:40:58 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Smith >From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:52 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >Who on this List enjoys being treated like a dope? I assume you'd >prefer the word 'flocks'. So what? Nobody pretends to know what >these things are, any more than they pretend photos, by themselves, >will provide ultimate proof of anything. Don't you think readers >know this? Don't you think your assumption is more than a little >condescending? Yes, I agree that we on the List are more able to sift the meaning out of the terminology. However, when the public sees the term, they are led down a path of meaning which is inappropriate at this time. For hype purposes, "fleets" is the most dramatic and useful term. For serious UFOlogical purposes, it is not. If one wishes to convey to the public that one is serious about researching this phenomena then one does not use biased or leading terms unless one can back it up. A fleet implies that it is either alien or human constructed spaceships. It is hardly even a UFO at that point. I don't think this has
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:29:08 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:44:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:19:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:14:20 +0000 >>Subject: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >>This new force among us will defeat any last attempt to >>reverse history and minimize the effects of this new >>brazilian UFO Disclosure. We know some attacks, discredit >>and debunking attempts will come by - we know who. These >>deceitful agents of disinformation and pro-cover-up >>campaigns will start very soon. >Wow! You guys are pretty suspicious! >Its interesting that you seem to feel that the disclosed data >will help your case in the reality of UFOs (as alien spaceships, >since we all agree that UFOs, by defintion, obviously exist). >Perhaps, the data stored in the files will be able to be >analyzed by new methods to provide a more prosaic explanation to >the UFO phenomena in each case. You don't know. >>We must watchful for who is going to come first trying to >>discredit the Brazilian disclosure inventing whatever naive >>argument to deceive the people. These disinformative >>individuals have been around for sometime and we know >>very well who they are. >I think that whatever the disclosure provides will make for good >reading. James, The simple, obvious truth is that if the UFO reports lent themselves to `prosaic' explanations, the military departments of the world (not just Brazil) would have long since opened up their files after deleting any legitimate security matters relating to radar capabilities or the like. The simple, obvious truth that all long-term sceintifically and logically oriented UFO investigators know is that just about every Air Force in the world of any size has encountered unexplainable craft-like, maneuvering, controlled objects and they don't quite know what to do about it. Just today I received a rather startling confirmation of this from a highly reputable person who has important contacts inside the Pentagon. People who know me will know that I don't make things up and I plan to share the information with close colleagues. I really don't care what anyone else thinks. But one doesn't need inside contacts to figure this out for themselves. The evidence is plain to see.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Many Thanks From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:31:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:46:14 -0400 Subject: Many Thanks As some will be aware my website, The WHY? Files, passed through a traumatic period about a year ago. This resulted in my having no choice but to re-establish the site at a new address, namely: http://www.thewhyfiles.net Under these circumstances "making up lost ground" is indeed a difficult task but I am pleased to announce that we have recently recorded our 10 millionth hit since September 4th, 2005. May I, via this eminent List, thank all those who have visited and supported The WHY? Files over the last year. I would also like to especially thank those who also gave that little bit of extra support that made all the difference, such as Stuart Miller, Ed Gehrman, World of The Strange(for their superb comments about the site),Chris Evers, Frank Kourhy and others. Also, I was lucky enough for Steve Watkins to join the site as webmaster. There have, of late, been a number of additional files uploaded to the site,including: The Bermuda Triangle - "Mystery, Myth or Mythery" George Adamski - "Astral Prophet or Palomar Fraud?" For a full list see:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:48:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:47:49 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Andy Roberts <andy.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:26:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >[Non-Subscriber Post] >List, >Neither Dave Clarke nor I post to UpDates but Nick Pope's recent >posting cannot be allowed to pass unremarked. >This is a blatant and conscious manipulation of the facts. To >call Pope and Bruni's pliagarism a 'scoop' is really beyond the >pale and as an exercise in intellectual self aggrandisment it's >at number 11 on the scale! List, Sounds like an Oxford versus Cambridge boat race on paper to me! Aren't we just happy that the data got to us in the end? Oops, sorry teacher, you will find my name at the bottom of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:49:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:51:06 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:53:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide Hello Nick, List, >Joe, >I've snipped your extremely lengthy post, but hope that I've >nonetheless answered all your questions about the British >Government's UFO Project. <snip> >The National Archives Research Note 6, on UFOs, was adapted from >the Official History article that Georgina Bruni and I wrote >several years ago. I wasn't consulted on this, but since I state >that all material on my website may be freely used, for non- >commercial purposes, I wasn't concerned. >Recently, however, I noticed that Research Note 6 had been >expanded to give a list of file references provided by ufologist >Dave Clarke. But somehow, his name had appeared at the end of >the Research Note, as if he'd written the Official History. As >this was an obvious falsehood, I had it corrected. When the <snip> Thanks for that, Nick. Definitely a complete and unambiguous answer and much appreciated. >>In respect to the Flying Saucer Working Party at the site >>referred to above, you describe a series of clues which led >>researchers to request the document from the MoD. ><snip> >This isn't correct. If you re-read the Official History you'll >see that I was pointing to clues that should have alerted >ufologists to the existence of these documents. I wasn't >commenting on how various ufologists actually learned of their >existence and obtained them. Having re-read the article, I am still left with the impression that you were implying that this is what led you/Georgina to the document. I am also surprised that the actual means of discovery are not in fact discussed, but an example of how someone could have discovered it is discussed. It looks a bit like someone saying "you can find mines by standing on them and seeing if they go 'BANG!'" without mentioning that they actually prefer to use a metal detector. >>Please can you elaborate on exactly how and when you became >>aware of the FSWP document and the date that you requested a >>copy of it? >Georgina Bruni obtained them in 2001, but I don't know precisely >when. She learned of their existence through unrelated research >into the Cold War. I didn't find out that she had the papers >until later. Thanks again. Not knowing precisely when Georgina acquired them (or requested them), how can you be sure that she was the individual that "discovered" them first? I have tonight submitted a FoIA request which should definitively resolve the question. If it turns out that Georgina submitted her request before Clarke and Roberts circulated details of the discovery, I shall publicly apologise to her and you on-list. If it appears that the request was subsequent to C&R's announcement, I would hope that you would have the grace to do the same. >>I further note that you have pointedly avoided mentioning the >>work of Clarke and Roberts by name in respect to the discovery >>of the document. Are you willing to correct that situation now? >Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >some furious abuse from certain quarters. I rather think that the cause of the "furious abuse" (or, to my mind, "righteous indignation") was the lack of acknowledgment to Clarke and Roberts for the "scoop" - they published details on their web site, here on UpDates, and also in "The Observer" newspaper on 21st October 2001, 6 months before the article in UFO magazine. See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-004.shtml and: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,577850,00.html They were effectively written out of the scene by the article co-authored by you in UFO Magazine, and there has been no subsequent acknowledgment of their work by either you or Georgina since, aside from the ignominous mention by you of "two enterprising members of the public" in January 2002. ><snip> >I've snipped out much of the rest of your post, which relates to >the scope and scale of the British Government's UFO Project, and >the extent to which it was drawn into looking at phenomena such >as alien abductions, crop circles and cattle mutilations. >The best way I can explain this to you is to say that the >Project was reactive. If we received reports of such phenomena, >we'd look into them. It didn't matter whether or not it was in >our terms of reference. My article on the Ministry of Defence's >involvement with the crop circle mystery gives an illustration >of how this worked in practice, though clearly neither this >article nor the chapter on crop circles in my book Open Skies >Closed Minds can possibly capture everything that took place: >http://www.nickpope.net/crop_circles.htm Okay, though your wording is a little ambiguous here, I think you would have to agree with the following: 1. In relation to alien abductions, your only official involvement was to file reports, console reported abductees, and stay abreast of media reports of such incidents. Incidentally, I have a copy of a letter from you (in your official capacity) to an UFO researcher dated 13th July 1992 in which you wrote: "I do not know the precise nature of your enquiry, but if you were after a general idea of what our UFO files contain, then I suspect that they are far less exciting than many would suppose. Essentially, they contain letters asking about the official view on the UFO phenomena, and actual UFO sighting reports. These reports are almost all ones that could be classsified as "lights/discs in the sky". In my time here (almost exactly a year) I have not received one report of any "close encounter" or "abduction". From my study of our previous files (ie those that we have cupboard space for here, going back to about 1985!) I can only recall one or two such reports. I suspect that for whatever reason, people might feel more comfortable about making such reports to UFO groups as opposed to contacting us." I will try to scan this document and place it on the web (with the identity of the researcher concerned deleted) when I get the chance - I have permission to do so. 2. In regard to Crop circles, your official involvement was to respond to letters from the public and stay abreast of the media coverage. If there was any implication that military aircraft created the formation, you had to assess the viability of that implication and if it was viable, pass it on for further investigation. The only instance that you were further involved was an abortive attempt to have a soil sample analysed (why the MoD would want to do so bemuses me). 3. In regard to animal mutilation, you had no official involvement, other than to file any reports of this that were sent to you and possibly acknowledge such reports. If you agree with the above three points, how do you reconcile them with your web site introductory page where it states "Welcome to the official website for Nick Pope, the Ministry of Defence official who was responsible for researching and investigating UFOs,alien abductions, crop circles, cattle mutilations and other strange phenomena.."? The implication implies a much inflated view of your activities (investigation and research as opposed to filing and responding) while in the post, according to some of your other writings. For example, I have a transcript of a television interview by central TV from the period of your incumbancy of the "UFO desk". The subject being interviewed was asked: "...Isn't it really true to say that there is no real policy on the subject, and that it has all depended on the views of the individual desk officers?" To which he replied: "No. As I've explained, our policy is that our role is to look for any evidence of a threat to the UK, and further, that we believe most sightings can be readily explained. I should stress that overall, in the scheme of things, UFOs is a tiny part of my branch's business - probably not even taking up a quarter of my time." Do these words sound familiar to you at all, Nick? >You also asked how the British Government's UFO Project compared >to Project Blue Book. We were always the poor relation and if >that's your point, I can only agree with you. Naturally, I wish >we'd been better resourced. However, the aims of the UK and US >projects were the same: to research and investigate the UFO >phenomenon, with a view to assessing whether there was evidence >of anything of defence significance, and specifically, any >threat to national security. No, my point is that it is _you_ that keeps mentioning the two "projects" in the same breath (in fact it is one project (Blue Book) and one role, each distinctly different in terms of resourcing and scope). This comparison is entirely invalid and misleading. >>Since investigations into the defence implications of >>alleged UFO sightings might involve highly classified material >>it was agreed that S4(Air) has no "need to know" about the >>enquiries made by any specialist branch in the course of an >>investigation. It followed that detailed reports on such >>investigations could not be included in the S4 files which would >>ultimately be disclosed when UFO reports were opened to the >>public." ><snip> >I'm afraid you've misunderstood the document you quote. What >this actually means is that methods and sources aren't >discussed. All cases (public and military) would still go to the >civilian secretariat division, as they did during my tour of >duty. If you look at the Subject Indicator Code on any UFO >signals in the public domain, you'll notice that the secretariat >is the action addressee. What the document means is that if the >Defence Intelligence Staff found an explanation, they wouldn't >necessarily share information on how they'd reached that >conclusion. No, I don't think that I misunderstood it at all. The bottom line was that nothing of a sensitive nature should appear in S4's files, and that could only be the case if you weren't "in the loop" as far as sensitive material was concerned. In other words, if a sighting was due to an Aurora overflight, S4 would simply be told that "No ESV activity could be identified that might be responsible for the report" or some similar (and perfectly true) response. The real cause would not be conveyed, and therefore not appear in S4 files. >You're not the first to suggest that the division where I worked >was some sort of 'shop window', dealing only with UFO cases from >the public. However, documents recently released under the FOIA >are demonstrating what I've tried to explain for some time, >namely that the civilian secretariat division and the Defence >Intelligence Staff worked together on all UFO investigations. If >you think about it logically, this is the only way that the >relationship could work, and that UFO sightings could be >properly investigated. I never said that reports (from any source) were not channeled in via S4, but that S4 was sometimes not made fully aware of the activities or conclusions reached by consultative departments, particularly where sensitive information was concerned. Something else that I have noticed amongst the files at TNA and elsewhere is that cases which clearly merit follow-up action show no sign of having been followed up at all, though I find it hard to believe that they were simply ignored. If they weren't ignored, where are the details of the follow-up? Not in the S4 files. I feel that I should point out that although my remarks may seem personalised and unkind, I am simply trying to establish the true level of interest in UFOs held by the MoD over the years. With a few, short-duration exceptions, the level of interest has consistently appeared to be very low prior to and following your tenure. It seems inconsistent that your period of tenure should have been substantially different. In the matter of who discovered the FSWP documents and secured their release, that is a matter which is pertinent to ufology as a whole. I am personally reluctant to circulate early results of any research, until it has reached a point where it can not be hijacked so that someone else gets to claim the credit for my efforts. I am not alone in this attitude, and it is hindering progress on a number of research activities in the UK.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Stevens From: Wendelle Stevens <S18195A.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:11:10 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:56:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Stevens >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31:47 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >Dear international colleagues: >Here is the translation into English of the Brazilian Ufology >Manifesto, officially presented to the Commander of the Air >Force, the Minister of Defense and to the President of Brazil, >on May 20th. >The document has been accepted and there is a strong promise >that the Brazilian UFO researchers requests will be achieved. >The first step was the sucessfull gathering with the military in >Brasilia. <snip> Good Show A.J. This is long overdue. I am glad you have taken this great step forward. As I remember it, in one discussion with Semjase, she told Billy Meier that in their view, the first world recognition of this phenomenon would come out of Brasil, and then other nations
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 21 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:19:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:00:47 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 21 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 21 May 25, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ ORANGE UFOs SIGHTED BY HUNDREDS IN AUSTRALIA Strange orange lights were seen by hundreds over the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, the capital of Australia's Victoria state. "If witnesses to the strange phenomenon seen last Friday night," May 13, 2005, "are to be believed, the answer could be alien spaceships." "The mystery developed at 10:30 p.m. when about a dozen of the orange lights were seen hovering over Ferntree Gully." "Tim Webster, 23, of Upwey, Vic., admits he was looking forward to an alien abduction as he photographed the lights on his phone camera." "'They were too high for fireworks, higher than a jet and creating patterns that no aircraft could do.'" "Mr. Webster called his friend, Aaron Singe, 22, who was at Mountain Gate shopping centre." "'Tim just said, 'Look outside, you're not going to believe it,' Singe said, 'It's pretty hard to convince about this sort of thing, but this is too weird.'" "Another friend, Stuart Wilson, 24, managed to take video footage of the lights." "The shaky video shows a large prick of light forming shapes such as diamonds, lines, characters and what looks like the Southern Cross." "The lights were watched for ten minutes before flying in a different direction and vanishing, Mr. Wilson said." "'It's possible aliens are driving them, but, until I see one (an alien--J.T.), I'm not going to be convinced,' he said, 'This is pretty close, but I didn't see any little green men.'" "But Mr. Webster doesn't need convincing." "'I was never into sci-fi, but now I'm going to do my homework on UFOs,' he said." "Local pizza shop owner Ned Bulic also took phone photos and said, 'They were definitely alien UFOs. Nothing else could have moved like that.'" "Police contacted Melbourne Airport after reports came in from Hallam, Vic. to Boronia, Vic., but there were no anomalies on the radar." (See the Australian newspaper Herald-Sun for May 15, 2005, "UFOs spotted over Melbourne." Many thanks to Robert Fischer for this newspaper article.) MYSTERIOUS "FIREBALL" SEEN OVER FINLAND "An exceptionally bright 'fireball' was spotted slicing through the sky over Finland" on Tuesday, May 17, 2005, "before exploding over the (Scandinavian) country's border with Russia." "The phenomenon was witnessed by dozens of people in the eastern part of the country, the Finnish Astronomical Association (Finnish acronym: URSA) said Wednesday," May 18, 2005. "'Our authorities have roughly indicated that the (fireball) began its descent over the eastern border and ended in an explosion over Russia's Karelia region,' URSA newsletter editor Marko Pekkola told Agence France Presse." "Closer identifications will be needed to determine the exact route taken by the 'fireball,' which was probably an incandescent meteorite, Pekkola added." (See the Agence France Presse report for May 18, 2005. Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International, for the AFP news release.) UFOs SIGHTED BY MANY IN HUARAL, PERU Huaral, a small city in Peru located 97 kilometers (58 miles) north of Lima, the national capital, is the site of South America's latest UFO flap. On Friday, May 6, 2005, "an unidentified flying object was recorded and captured on a videotape belonging to a college student from Lima, who was visiting the agricultural region known as El Ahorcado," 16 kilometers (10 miles) from Huaral. El Ahorcado was described as "a strange wilderness surrounded by sinuous curves, great, oddly-shaped boulders and is the home of humble farmers who rise at dawn and go to bed at dusk." Since the beginning of May 2005, the region has had "daily sightings of strange vehicles that are completely different from airplanes and helicopters, which generally do not fly over the region." "On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 6:45 p.m., as the sun went down and the sky darkened, Jason Mendez Cordova, a doctoral student majoring in physics, was strolling through El Ahorcado in the company of his brother and a friend, looking at the rocks and studying the unusual landscape, when he taped something on his camcorder. At the time, he was surprised to see that the camcorder was picking up images of an impressive light. This continued to another 20 minutes. They recorded children at play as the light hovered over the unusual rocky landscape." Later, "Jason returned to his home in Mangomarca Zarate. He downloaded the images and immediately became aware of a strange object recorded by his (video) camera. Upon checking and rechecking it, he realized that-- unbeknownst to him--the image of an unidentified flying object had been picked up on the tape." "'I wasn't aware of the strange craft when shooting the landscape, the huts, the children playing and the dusty streets of the area, until I downloaded the video to my personal computer,'" Jason reported, "'That's when I observed the sighting. It's useless or illogical to believe that in such a vast universe we would be the only living creatures. There are intelligent civilizations on other planets, and worlds (that hold--S.C.) a variety of life forms.'" Eyewitness reports have also been received from "other farmers and residents of the city of Huaral, who claim seeing strange craft on a daily basis in the clear skies, both early in the morning and at dusk. Two farmers who work early in the morning, as is their custom, claim having seen an enormous craft that plowed the skies over Huaral and appeared to follow them as they walked. Whenever they stopped, the object stopped as well, continuing this behavior until the immense vehicle became lost among the boulders." "Another resident claims that around 6 p.m.," on Monday, May 2, 2005, "she saw a craft that flashed intermittent lights in the heavens, hovered among the clouds and then vanished at high speed. 'It was faster than an airplane, very strange. This is the first time I've seen such a thing, but some neighbors and my compadre tell me that they have seen similar things at other times,' she said." "The eyewitnesses asserted that these strange aircraft do not resemble airplanes or helicopters in size, speed and shape." (See La Prensa for May 19, 2005, "UFOs over Huaral." Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Alex Sender por este articulo de diario.) TWO UFOs CAUSE A POWER FAILURE IN COPIAPO, CHILE Two UFOs flying in tandem overhead were blamed for a mysterious electrical blackout in northern Chile. "Two objects travelling at high speed interrupted the electric supply in the city of Copiapo" and in the nearby farm commune of Caldera. "Word is circulating throughout the city of Copiapo and the commune of Caldera that the blackout that plunged the region into darkness on Wednesday," March 30, 2005, "between 8:15 and 9:15 p.m. could have been 'caused by the sudden transit of two UFOs.'" "The report has been given a certain measure of 'credibility' considering that the blackout had been caused by a malfunction at the 110,000-volt transformer substation, which has been confirmed by Empresa Electrica de Atacama (EMELAT) (Translated: Atacama Electrical Authority--J.T.), which has been quoted as saying, 'The problem is still under investigation.'" "Local resident Gonzalo Delgado, who flatly refused to be photographed 'since they'd think I was a nut,' told the newspaper El Chanarcillo that 'around 8 p.m. on Wednesday I was in the barrio Cuesta de Cardone (neighborhood) and hitchhiking my way back into the city. I suddenly realized that two objects were crossing the sky at high speed, and, when I turned and looked back at the city, I realized that it had vanished. That leads me to believe that it was at this time that the power failure occurred. Two trucks were coming down the road at the same time who could have also seen the phenomenon.'" "He stresses that he thought long and hard about reporting what he had seen, since he feared being dismissed as a lunatic, 'which I think would be unfair, since I did see the two luminous objects.'" Delgado "stressed that he could not 'ascertain that the transit of these two objects was responsible for the power failure. But if EMELAT is still investigating, what else could it be?'" "No official explanation has been presented by the company, leaving the possibility that the two UFOs were responsible for the blackout." Copiapo is in Chile's northern state of Atacama, located about 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of Santiago de Chile, the national capital. (See the Chilean newspaper El Chanarcillo for March 30, 2005, "Did UFOs cause a blackout in northern Chile?" Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales por este articulo de diario.) SPHERICAL UFOs SPOTTED IN ANGELS CAMP, CALIFORNIA On Sunday, May 8, 2005, eyewitness Rick Riojas spotted a UFO over his hometown of Angels Camp, California (population 3,004). He said it "was coming in from the west over the (nearby) towns of Felix and Copperopolis. "For the past year, we have been witnessing strange red, blue and orange spherical objects, like balls of light, that seem to hover over the hills (of Calaveras County--J.T.) from a location maybe 5 to 6 miles (8 to 10 kilometers) away." The UFOs "move from side to side and sometimes back up and down. I have seen the object near some large trees. It also seems to approach from the same direction (west) every time. But I have dismissed the idea of it being a star, a plane or a radar helicopter. Its movements are too sporadic to be any of them." "They seem to be too far away from me for me to adequately judge the size of any object. I could guess them to be approximately 20 to 30 feet (6 to 9 meters) in diameter." Angels Camp, Cal. is in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, approximately 66 miles (110 kilometers) southeast of Sacramento, the state capital. (Email Form Report) OVAL-SHAPED UFO SEEN BY COUPLE IN EL PASO, TEXAS On Thursday, May 19, 2005, Delilah Dawson was in her kitchen in El Paso, Texas (population 563,662) when "at about 5:30 a.m., my husband got home from work, frantic about some object in the sky that looked like a star but was too bright." "As I went outside to find out what he was talking about, the sun was just starting to come up, and I saw in the distance an object that appeared to be metallic silver in color and was oval-shaped with what looked like lights on it." "As I got our camcorder, it started to move slowly to the right and slowly to the left. Then it hovered for about an hour and a half. Then it disappeared." Excited, Delilah telephoned the National Weather Service to report her sighting. "The National Weather Service said it wasn't a weather balloon because they don't go from right to left. We called McDonald Observatory, and they couldn't tell me and hung up on my neighbor. Air Traffic Control declined to make a statement and hung up." (Email Form Report) UFOs OR THE VIRGIN MARY? A really strange phenomenon was reported last week by eyewitness J.N. in Sault Sainte Marie, Ontario province, Canada. Earlier this year, the giant metal cross at Notre Dame de Grands Lacs School in Sault Sainte Marie, Ont. began moving from side to side in a queer metronome fashion. Principal, groundskeeper and students witnessed the phenomenon for over three hours. On Sunday, May 8, 2005, J.N. reported, "I was outside with my dogs and my girlfriend" when a strange spherical light approached from the north. "It looked like a star, but it wasn't. Just a bright light high in the sky. It went south at first, and then it went up, as if into space." Four days later, on Thursday, May 12, 2005, the mysterious sphere of light returned. J.N. reported, "I was with my girlfriend. We were walking to Mac's Mart on Queen Street in the east end. There is a sewage plant nearby. I was saying how much it stunk, when we looked over and saw that light again. This time it approached from the south (Sault Sainte Marie, Michigan, USA, known to people of the Great Lakes region as "the Soo"--J.T.) But this time it was lower and closer. The light started to move towards us but kept its distance. It looked like an eye. That would explain it best--like a light with a bar in the middle. The bottom of the light was a different colour. It came towards us, then moved around the city, heading west. It was really fast. It went from the east end to downtown in a matter of seconds." "The phenomena seen by J.N. and his girlfriend appear similar to those witnessed at Marian apparition sites-- notably, Cova da Iria and Valinhos in the Serra da Aire of Portugal in 1917, and at Medjugorje in Bosnia-Hercegovina in 1984," UFO Roundup editor Joseph Trainor commented. "After the cross-shaking in Soo, Canada last winter, I wondered if there might be some sort of followup phenomena there on May 13, the traditional date of apparitions of the Virgin Mary (birth name: Miriam bat-Joachim--J.T.). Apparently, we had UFO sightings in Soo, Canada on May 8 and May 12. Close, but no cigar. File the cross-shaking incident under Unexplained, not Miraculous." Sault Sainte Marie, Ont. is on Provincial Highway 17 approximately 429 miles (680 kilometers) northwest of Toronto, Canada's largest city. (Email Form Report) LAKE VANISHES OVERNIGHT IN CENTRAL RUSSIA "A Russian village was left baffled Thursday," May 19, 2005, "after its lake disappeared overnight." "NTV Television showed video footage of a great muddy hole drying in the morning sun, while farmers from Bolotnikovo village looked on in shock and disorientation." "'It is very dangerous. If a person had been in this disaster, he would have had almost no chance of survival. The trees flew downwards, under the ground,' said Dmitri Zaitsev, a local Emergencies Ministry official interviewed by NTV." "Officials in the Nizhegorodskaya region, on the Volga River east of Moscow, said water in the lake might have been forced down into an underground water-course or cave system." "But the villagers had a more sinister explanation." "'I am thinking...well, America has finally gotten to us,' said an old woman, as she sat on the ground outside her farmhouse." (See Moscow News for May 20, 2005, "Lake disappearance baffles villagers." Many thanks to Jim Hickman for this news article.) ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION FOR AREA 51 IS COMING Fifty years ago, in May 1955, construction work began on "the operating base near Groom Lake," Nevada--a base which evolved into the top-secret Area 51. Although the official celebrations have already been held on the base, a public celebration of the 50th Anniversary will be held on Memorial Day weekend. The three-day event will be held from Saturday, May 28, to Monday, May 30, 2005. According to ufologist Norio Hayakawa, one of the event's organizers, "There will be a public celebration and rally for the Golden Anniversary" that "will be held on Saturday, May 28, 2005 adjacent to the eastern boundary of the base adjacent to Groom Lake Road. It will be hosted by Joerg Anu, webmaster of Area 51: The Dreamland Resort, the world's largest online source of information about Area 51." (Editor's Note: UFO Roundup readers can access the Web site at this URL... http://www.dreamlandresort.com.) "Supporters and aficionados of Area 51, including military matters enthusiasts, are expected to celebrate outside the eastern boundary with numerous speakers. A mini-stage will be set up on the site," Norio announced. "According to Anu, May 28 was selected because it coincides with" the Memorial Day holiday here in the USA "and it would be easier for the public to attend the celebration. Some participants will arrive onsite on Friday afternoon, May 27, 2005. Celebrations will continue throughout the weekend." "Local news media is expected to cover the event, and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) rangers are also expected to participate by helping to coordinate and other activities needed to make the event a success." "For the past 16 years or so, Area 51 has been psychically and erroneously associated with false rumors of 'alien starships' and conspiracies." "Norio Hayakawa, a supporter of the importance and necessity of this vital base for our national defense, stated that 'the operating base near Groom Lake' is a real aerospace complex, which was originally not intended to be established as a big, secret, classified base." "According to Hayakawa, it has become a 'secret base' only through paranoia created by false rumors, which began in the 1980s and persisted through the mid-1990s." (Editor's Comment: Yet, in early 1995, Timothy J. McVeigh, the convicted Oklahoma City bomber, conducted a one-man long range reconnaissance patrol (LRRP) at Area 51, in search of UFOs. McVeigh claimed to have breached the inner perimeter at Area 51, actually reaching the dry lakebed. He said he was detected on his way out and was kept under surveillance by the guards but was not arrested. A claim your editor finds a little hard to believe.) "Area 51 is a Research and Development equipment test base, employing anywhere from 1,400 to 2,400 defense contractor employees." Contractors at Area 51 include Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, TRW, EG & G and General Atomics. (Many thanks to Norio Hayakawa for this news release.) (Editor's Note: Lockheed does the annual certification testing of airport screeners deployed by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), a sub-agency of the Department of Homeland Security.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:13:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:27:40 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Dickenson >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:24:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com <snip> >Since there are no experts on the subject of ET life and there >isn't any tangible proof either, I have offered to take up the >challenge to teach the full year Natural Science course 'Life >Beyond Earth' at York University this coming September. Your >suggestions on just how and what to teach students enrolled in >this course and sharing your thoughts, experiences and personal >beliefs about this interesting subject (which, if we are honest >with ourselves is very speculative at best) would be much >appreciated by us. If students avoid having their minds clouded >with the scientific biases and preconceptions and of this age, >who knows, we may even learn the truth in their final exams! Hello Nick, As text back-up of Mac's pragmatic approach would suggest two rigorous "exobiology" books by Profs. Jack Cohen & Ian Stewart. Selective quotes: "We simply would not know they were here unless they wanted us to" and "Planet Earth is... near enough all we know... If we assume Earth is typical, we are lost." from 'Evolving the Alien' 2002 and, saying that [some] aliens; "might exist only in the gaps where the human perceptual systems are in their refractory phase and cannot register their existence." from 'What Does a Martian Look Like? The Science of Extra-terrestrial Life'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 25 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:27:39 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:29:31 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Ledger >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>I do. >Yes, it is a bit suggestive. >After nearly six decades, why is there still no collective noun >for UFOs? >We have a covey of quails, a pride of lions, a gaggle of geese, >a shoal of fish, a murmuration (?) of starlings, etc. >So what is it (or should it be) for UFOs? >By the way, what are the collective noun for >(a) pelicans? >(b) pelicanists? >(c) klasskurtzians? >(d) whistleblowers? >Jerry Clark may be able to help with (b) >Alfred Lehmberg may help with (c). >and Michael Salla may help with (d)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Salla on Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Bishop From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:14:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla on Greg Bishop's Project Beta - Bishop >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:48:44 -100 >Subject: Salla On Greg Bishop's Project Beta >In giving the side of the intelligence personnel, I think it >would have been fair to have given an objective analysis of the >side of those presenting the 'pro-Bennewitz' case in the UFO >literature. How can one perform an objective study if one side >is presented as little more than a set of unsubstantiated >rumors, urban legends and disinformation, and the other side, >the intelligence side is given an objective analysis using >avaiable documents and testimonies? Basically what you've done >is constructed a straw man in terms of the pro-Bennewitz camp >and given it a knock out punch with your objecive analysis of >the 'anti-Bennewitz' or perspective of former intelligence >personnel. What you see as a "pro-intelligence" stance is something I saw as an attempt to tell a newsworthy story in the most objective way possible, and was not meant to be a research paper or tract. Actually, what I tried to accomplish was to use the standard method for determining as close as one can get to the truth of a story - one that is accepted by almost everyone because it works. The "intelligence side" was checked against the testimony of people who were not in the military, as well as published literature that was, as far as I could tell, not disinformation. I "constructed a straw man" with the words and writings of people whose doom and destruction theories and predictions have not come to pass. How objective can we be with whistleblower claims when we have nothing to corroborate them? At least I had confirming evidence within and outside of the UFO camp forming the basis of the story in "Project Beta." The method you suggest uses the testimony of people who have compelling stories to tell, but no evidence other than that. The "pro-Bennewitz" camp consists of the idea that there was an underground base at Dulce, aliens were using this base to plan an attack on the Earth, and that they were controlling certain people through implanted devices. No one has yet found evidence of any base at Dulce, we have still not been attacked by aliens, and the jury seems to still be out on implants. As I said, there are far better things to place your beliefs in than an underground base at Dulce, New Mexico. I'll use a story to illustrate my thought process: A friend tells me someone is coming to kill me at a certain time. I ask him how he knows this. He tells me the source of the rumor and I check it out by asking others. It appears to be true, but I am not killed and the guy never shows up. Another friend tells me an alien is coming to kill me. I ask him how he knows and he replies that they told him on his radio. There is no way for me to check this information out unless I hear what is on his radio, but what he shows me appears to make no sense. Others say that they know that this is true, but they cannot tell me where they received this information. The alien never shows up and I am not killed. Which is the more likely scenario? That an alien is coming to get me, or the human? People kill other people all the time. Aliens may have killed people (if you believe that there are actually aliens and some are skulking about who want to do this.) Ask anyone outside of the UFO crowd which is more likely. What you propose is a new method of measurement that is only accepted by a few people who have never been vindicated. The result is the same, but the methods I can use to check out the veracity of the story are much different. You cannot easily prove something to people which lies outside of their frame of reference and experience, and I didn�t think that the facts of the Bennewitz case warranted this. I was not able to find anything compelling regarding an actual alien invasion or a hidden base. >>I have already addressed the issue of dealing with intelligence >>agents in another post on this list. The gist of my opinion is >>that you must deal with intelligence personnel if you want to >>get to the center of the Government/UFO 'onion'. Listening only >>to those who tell you what you want to hear is just as flawed as >>ignoring them, or worse, believing all the information that they >>feed you is true. It has been almost a quarter century since the >>events described in Project Beta occurred. The passage of time >>and much of the sensitivity surrounding the projects at Kirtland >>have had time to cool down. This makes it more likely that >>people involved in the disinfo campaign at the time can talk >>more freely about the subject. >I don't know how analysing the testimonies of Paul Bennewitz, >Phil Schneider, Michael Wolf, Thomas Castello, Daniel Burisch, >Bob Lazar, Myrna Hansen, etc., is listening to those who "tell >you what you want to hear". Are you insinuating that those >researchers trying to make sense of whistleblowers and witnesses >describing secret underground bases filled with >extraterrestrials who perform experiments on humans are >fabricating their own horror story for entertainment? Perhaps >those like myself who take such whistleblowers seriously need to >take a course in UFOlogy 101 where we demand hard evidence and >documentation of those claiming the existence of such >underground bases. Regardless of ample testimonial evidence that >'hard evidence' and documentation are regularly withdrawn and >tampered with by national security agencies, we just invoke the >demand "where's the hard evidence", and we graduate as >legitimate UFO researchers. >>I find it interesting that people such as Col. Phil Corso and >>Robert Dean were welcomed with open arms because they said what >>we wanted to hear, although I know of no evidence uncovered as >>yet to back up their most sensational claims. I am not calling >>them liars or disinfo agents, I am merely making a point of >>perspective here. The best procedure I think is to listen to >>their stories, and check up on the information, as Robert and >>Ryan Wood - among others - are currently doing. >Why do you assume whistleblowers tell us what we want to hear? >Their experiences come from long military services where they >had the opportunity to experience what they claim to have >witnessed. Revealing information about classified projects is no >small matter and individuals doing so have great courage in >risking the penalties. I think we can do more than denigrate >them by claiming they are telling us what we want to hear. The point is that these are claims. I am not denigrating the messengers, I am referring to the people who accept what they say as gospel truth without anything else to back it up. I believe that many UFO researchers have a very bad record in regard to tunnel vision. Witness testimony is not as clear-cut when they reveal something as fantastic as agreements between aliens and the U.S. government. Has anything happened to these retired individuals? Have any of them been threatened or jailed? There may be a mixture of alturism and disinfo here. Regarding withdrawn testimonies and disappearing evidence, "that�s just what they want you to think"-type analysis has never won many converts, and will never get you an audience with anyone who can truly help your cause, unless you can prove that the evidence is available elsewhere. Otherwise, you�re S.O.L. >>How are whistleblowers more believable than intelligence agents? >>How do we know that these people are not intelligence agents >>themselves, or have been set up? If disinformation works well, >>the target will not only believe what they have been told or >>shown, but will keep their nose on the line and continue on >>their own, even without any subsequent confirming evidence. This >>is a well-demonstrated trait. If we believe whistleblower >>testimony out of hand, and reject intelligence leaks, we are not >>looking at the full picture. >These are good points. I have no easy answer. We need to be >alert to all these possibilities and be as discerning as >possible. In the absence of hard evidence and documentation that >will give us quick answers, we need to develop skills in >analysing a witnesses integrity, veracity, etc. Even then, it >may not be enough to have 100 percent confidence. That's why the >social sciences are not as precise as the physical sciences. >What happens in people's heads is much more difficult to work >out than the behavior of colliding billiard balls and other >empirical phenomenon. Exactly. I agree with you that we need to check things out. I could not possibly have checked out the "pro-Bennewitz" rumors as much as you have and made my deadline. You seem to have the interest to pursue the rumors, and I and others might be surprised by what you may find. Time and gumshoe work are the best tools to finding the truth. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or inclination to check up on things that I don't believe will bear fruit. If you do, more power to you. I also know of no fool-proof method for determining the veracity of a claim just by talking to one person. If you are talking about integrity, Bill Cooper and John Lear are not very good examples. They may have believed what they said, but I believe that both changed their stories and neither has been vindicated. >I certainly find no flaw in your willingness to seek out a broad >representation of witnesses and researchers to support your >argument. You research was very thorough in describing the >position of those that thought that Bennewitz was disinformed >and was disseminating tainted material. In that sense, you earn >the very highest marks and I'm sure that many veteran >researchers in the UFO community will find your analysis >compelling and may resent my chastising you for not seriously >considering whistleblower testimonies. However, I wonder who >else you would have interviewed if you took some of the >whistleblowers claims of Schneider, Burisch, etc., seriously. If I took them seriously, as you do, I would have had to locate and interview them. I did not have that luxury. One other thing I would like to point out is that two or three years ago, when I was researching the book, these stories were only available in samizdat form, and therefore very difficult to locate. I believe that it is only in the last couple of years that they have become more widely distributed on the internet - perhaps due in part to your efforts. Maybe someone can now refute my analysis in a more systematic manner. I'd be interested to see it, but if there is nothing left at Dulce to pick up, look at, photograph or detect through other means (like ground-penetrating radar or ultrasonic cave mapping) you won�t get many people on your side. >>How do you know what was "genuine" in Bennewitz' reports? You >>claim that I assume his whole theory of underground base and >>captured humans (I never mentioned any captured people) was >>solely a product of disinformation. This is not the case. What I >>did say is that the Air Force and NSA capitalized on existing >>aspects of his theory for their own ends. >Yes, that is an important qualification. Thanks for making your >position clearer. >>Claims of whistleblowers are just like the claims of government >>agents-we have to check the facts if they are available. Lazar, >>Schneider, Wolf and Burisch had incredible stories to tell about >>Dulce, but like Corso, Dean, and even Doty there is little or no >>supporting evidence. (I double checked Doty's and Moore's >>statements with those of others-within the government and the >>UFO field, as well as published accounts. If they matched, I >>included them. If not, I specifically stated so.) If Schneider >>was murdered, was it because he was talking too much about alien >>bases, or was there another reason? We are left with rumors and >>claims, but no reliable information to back them up. Plausible >>is not factual. The picture they paint is quite incredible and >>frightening, but I am not dismissing their claims out of hand. >I'm glad to hear that. I think Schneider's case is especially >interesting. It has all the characteristics of someone being >eliminated for talking too much about his classified work. I do >believe that he was 'eliminated' as a direct result of his >testimony about underground bases and the various agreements >reached with ETs by covert agencies. Disclosure Project >whistleblowers such as Don Phillips and Daniel Salter talk about >the 'death squads' used to eliminate those who break security. >These are serious claims. As you say, without documentation and >hard evidence, what do we do? We need to tread warily, and >neither jump too quickly to conclusions either for or against >the testimony. I don't think there are easy answers here and we >need to be discerning, and do our best in analysing all the >evidence. Was Schneider told about the agreements, or did he see evidence of it? His claims of working at the Dulce base are very difficult if not impossible to substantiate. In regard to death squads - "serious" claims are not necessarily true, and Phillips and Salter may have only heard about them. I have not learned of any problems with UFO researchers, at least since the 1960s (MacDonald, Jessup) and with the exception of Bill Cooper (whose belligerence more than his claims likely led to his death) I believe that nothing along these lines has happened since then. >>You assume that the Air Force (as you say) wanted to find out >>what the aliens were doing by using Bennewitz' expertise. If >>that was the case, all they had to do was either copy his setup >>or confiscate his equipment. This would not have been difficult, >>since he was convinced that he was in their confidence. I >>followed the more likely scenario. >However what if the Air Force (or more correctly the NSA as you >point out) was constrained by certain agreements in place >between extraterrestrials and government agencies? One of those >agreements may have limited the degree to which the Air force >could electronically monitor the base activities of the >extraterrestrials. Where is this agreement? Who has seen a copy? Why wouldn't the AFOSI have just gone ahead and used the radio setup anyway, since they apparently don't seem to care how they get their information? Wouldn�t the aliens know that Bennewitz was telling the military what he was hearing? Couldn�t the aliens have stopped this themselves? There are so many loose ends here I wouldn't know where to begin. >In the Charles Hall testimony we have a >description of how the Air Force and an extraterrestrial race >reached agreements that were followed to the letter at Nellis >AFB. Perhaps something also happened at Archeluta/Dulce whereby >a private civilian such as Bennewitz could supply intelligence >that the agencies couldn't do themselves under the terms of an >agreement. If Bennewitz and others are correct that >extraterrestrials have reached agreements with covert government >entitities, then it would be plausible that the terms of an >agreement would be that there would not be electronic >surveillance of the base. This would be similar to how a >government opens an embassy in a foregin country and the >agreement proscribes electronic surveillance of the embassy by >the host nation. Sure, but so far I haven't seen anything to substantiate this besides your theory. This sort of theorizing puts one on a very difficult path with little guarantee of success. >>Bennewitz was flown over the Archuleta Mesa on at least two >>occasions to look at the supposed indications of an underground >>base there. The Air Force had actually placed props on the >>ground to draw his attention to this area and away from Kirtland >>Air Force Base. Why would they do this if there really was a >>base under the mesa? Wouldn't they simply have told Bennewitz >>that there was nothing of interest there? They knew that he was >>contacting elected officials and news media about his concerns. >>It would seem self-defeating let this secret out. >Bennewitz was an electronics specialist that could trace the >source of electronic transmissions. He traced these to the >Archelutta Mesa and also had numerous sightings of UFOs in the >Dulce area. I'm not sure of the prop story to divert Bennewitz's >attention from Kirtland to the Archuleta Mesa/Dulce area. It >sounds like a classic disinformation strategy to explain away >how Bennewitz was interested in underground activities at Dulce. >So I don't believe the Air Force placed props there as you were >told presumably by Doty? It sounds like the kind of tale he >would have weaved during his service. I would say you were too >quick to accept this as the basis of Bennewitz's interest in the >location of Dulce. ...and Gabe Valdez, who told me that Bennewitz had shared these incidents with him. I don�t think Gabe was ever employed by the AFOSI. You assume for some reason that I believed everything that was told to me by intelligence agents. >>On the Art Bell program about a month ago, Richard Doty stated >>that he knew the Roswell incident was a crashed alien craft. If >>it were not for the fact that Doty is persona non grata in the >>UFO community, this would have been greeted as a revelation. Was >>this a another ploy by Doty to keep us listening to other lies >>he chooses to tell? He has been out of the Air Force for over 10 >>years. What would be the purpose of such shenanigans? I know >>many Ufologists will say that he still dances to his piper's >>tune, and 'you never really retire from intelligence work', but >>this stretches my own credulity. Besides, as I mentioned >>already, he was not the sole source for the narrative of the >>book. >I think this is a fair point. I don't know how best to deal with >someone like Doty who has clearly played a role in disseminating >disinformation. I know that Clifford Stone played a role in >disseminating disinformation to a target concering an crash- >retreival incident - a female UFO researcher. Stone later >confessed to this and regretted it. Stone however claims he >would have gone to the grave maintaining silence and his loyalty >oath were it not for the death of his son. It seems that was the >catalyst that turned him around. I don't know much about Doty >and will read his book with Collins and listen to some of his >interviews to understand his motivations and integrity in coming >forward. I remain suspicious but will be open to the possibility >that he is genuinely contributing to the UFO community rather >than dancing to his old master's tune. I believe that Doty is still under some pressure to keep some secrets, but I think it is in a way that allows him to open up about things that concern him - just like yours and Greer's whistleblowers. The difference is that I could check things he said and disregard things that were not correlated (or at least not include them in the book.) >>To me, the evidence pointed at a disinfo campaign and little >>else. If there is any reliable evidence for a joint human- >>alien base in Dulce besides uncheckable testimony, I would >>like to see it. >This is precisely the problem. How can one see "reliable >evidence" of a highly classified project. ...or an underground base, or agreements with aliens. The point I tried to make is that classified projects deal with earthly, sometimes mundane issues. Contact with a non-human race is another thing - much more extraordinary, and therefore much harder to prove. We are convincing no one but ourselves (and not all of us either) with these rumors. And I�ll give you one example of evidence of a highly classified project that was covered up with lies and disinformation (some of which was directed at Bennewitz) for 15 years: The F-117. >Possessing such evidence is a crime and those >even discussing the existence of such a project are violating national >security. You and other UFO researchers speak casually about the need for >'verifiable evidence, Verifiable evidence is not "casual." It is the thing needed to convince the public, elected officials, and others about the reality of what is proposed. This is required to start a serious, widespread public discussion, or a Congressional inquiry. >I have reached the conclusion from the testimonies of a number >of whistleblowers that the "alien-military alliance" exists. >That is not a 'core belief but a result of reading numerous >whistleblower testimonies since I became interested in the >extraterrestrial hypothesis. My entry into the the UFO field was >listening to Greer's Disclosure Project Press Conference in >2001. I was never interested in UFO sightings before that, but >became interested in whistleblower testimonies about secret >agreements, cover up of UFO sightings, secret committee system >that oversees deep black projects that allegedly deal with EBEs, >ETVs, etc. In the discipline of Political Science whistleblower >testimonies are regarded very highly and studied closely to >unravel what's happening in different government agencies. We >even have Federal whistleblower protection laws in place in the >US and many countries in recognition of the service >whistleblower's play in ensuring tranparent and honest >governance. In contrast, I found the UFO community regularly >dismisses whistleblower testimonies - there is a rather large >gray box in UFO research gathering dust with many precious >jewels that have been forgotten. The treatment given to >whistleblowers is a major omission by UFO researchers and >hopefully explains why I'm on this forum and trying to give >whistleblower testimonies the kind of recognition they deserve. Testimonies are fine, especially when the whistleblower in question is blowing the whistle on something with which the public is familiar, and doesn�t touch on such a taboo topic as UFOs. Unfortunately, it is far more difficult for elected officials to get behind former military personnel who come forward with stories of a "cosmic coverup ." You and I and just about all those who read this know that there are some (or many) dirty secret(s) involving the subject. When you and others can back their stories with other evidence, or convince others besides yourselves that the evidence is compelling enough to warrant further investigation, then things can move forward. I hope you can do this. It would be a revelation. I'm sorry that I do not share your belief that this will happen any time soon. My only "core belief" from my 15 years of looking at this subject that there is a non-human presence on this planet (notice I do not qualify this with "extraterrestrial") and that there are some people who know more about the nature of this presence than the general public. Beyond this, I have found no firm evidence to make any further claims. This probably won�t win me a lot of speaking dates or appearances on TV, but I don�t really care. The line you are willing to step over goes much further. Good luck. >>You suggest that I stained Bennewitz' memory by my treatment of >>him in Project Beta. This is the opposite of my feelings and why >>I took great pains to emphasize this in the book. That's why I >>dedicated it to him. What I wanted to show was that even this >>brilliant man could be fooled by his own tunnel vision and his >>ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true, instead >>of weighing the evidence on a case-by-case basis. >I'm sorry but what you say here is what I principally objected >to in your work. You refer to his "own tunnel vision" and his >"ears tuned only to what he had already decided was true". Why >is that not staining his memory? Just because I think someone was deluded in one area of his thinking doesn�t mean that I am doing a hatchet job on him. From your perspective, Paul Bennewitz was onto something. From just about everyone else�s point of view, he was chasing illusions. In most cases of this type, the situation would have been harmless and we would never have heard of him or his theories. I tried to explain that these illusions were encouraged by people who did not care a whit about his state of mind. Had the AFOSI and NSA not become involved, he may have eventually dropped the subject, or altered his stand. I feel as if you�re accusing me of blaming the victim for the crime. Self-delusion is not uncommon, even in the scientific community, and can be used to draw people away from the truth, be it in scientific research, covert operations or an alien presence. If his suspicions were true, the AFOSI and NSA et al did a good job of fooling him, and apparently me now. Believing in only that which supports your thesis and ignoring anything else that seriously denigrates it is a dangerous road to travel. This is also something I tried to get across to the reader in "Project Beta." >It seems that you have accepted >all that Doty and Moore have revealed, with minor support of a >number of others you interviewed, to paint what appears to be a >compelling picture of Bennewitz as a brilliant yet deluded man. >If you seriously considered the testimony of some of the >whistleblowers I mentioned, you may have reached a different >conclusion. I think that is what we owe Bennewitz who paid a >high price for honestly reporting his findings to a very >sceptical and hard nosed UFO community. I can't consider them seriously because I can't find anything to back up their claims. At least Moore, Doty, and Miller told me things that I could check with people and accounts from the "outside." Where is the "minor support" for the whistleblowers besides other whistleblowers? >I can't fault you for adopting a methodology that many in the >UFO community accept as rigorous scientific research method. ...as well as journalists, courts, and the public at large. Scientific method is based on testable repeatability. This is not this is not the same as a journalistic treatment of a story, and "Project Beta" is not a science paper. UFO sightings are not controllable and repeatable. Ufology lies, as you rightly put it, somewhat in the realm of sociology. It is also served well by a study of statistics. However, I fail to see how sociological methods are applicable to whistleblower testimony, although correlating similar accounts from separate sources is a start. This is more like the investigation of a crime, or a journalistic story. The next obvious step is to see if this matching testimony is based in anything that can be investigated - like uncovering an extensive tunnel network under the Archuleta mesa. Why hasn�t anyone done this? One of the main points in "Project Beta" was that the UFO community was hopelessly contaminated by disinformation in the late 1980s and early �90s by a set of stories that were so convoluted and outlandish that they were guaranteed to be marginalized. In response to this torrent of disinfo, researchers who were looking for the most sensationalized stories flocked to them. Unfortunately, the nature of the information and the personalities that were spreading it turned off all but the most paranoid among us. >The field has been dominated by the methodology first created by >pioneers such as Donald Keyhoe, Allen Hynek, Jim MacDonald, >Richard Hall, Stanton Friedman, etc. My own exopolitical model >is strongly resisted since it doesn't place much emphasis on the >need for documentation and verifiable evidence. As you say, your >book will be helpful for disinterested parties who seek >verifiable evidence. However, it's in the unverifiable evidence >that the truth will be found. That is something many >increasingly are realizing and why whistleblowers need to have >their testimonies seriously considered. And here is the crux of the problem. You're stating the one, overriding reason why no one who can truly help you will ever come forward. What you're proposing is a paradigm shift where we believe people based on nothing but their word and anything in their accounts which support a rigid hypothesis of alien takeover. This is the one of the definitions of dysfunctional relationships, and one of the reasons why disinformation works so well. This methodology also frees one from having to answer any normally obvious questions or doing the sort of work that requires many long hours of research in libraries and archives, or interviewing witnesses who may have divergent points of view. I think that this is exactly what happened to Paul Bennewitz. Our consensus reality has many problems, and belief in someone based solely on their word has caused many of them. >While you may feel my comments are perhaps an unwelcome >spotlight on your methodological approach to the Bennewitz saga, >I believe you have done him and others a service in resurrecting >his case and bringing it to the attention of many in the UFO >community. In that sense, I think your book succeeds admirably >in bringing into the focus the challenges that confront us in >dealing with the disinformation leveled against UFO researchers. I do thank you for being a gentleman. Considering some of the namecalling and baiting that occurs in the UFO community, that itself is an accomplishment. _________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:13:47 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:19:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Harrison >From: Wendelle Stevens <S18195A.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:11:10 EDT >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31:47 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >>Dear international colleagues: >>Here is the translation into English of the Brazilian Ufology >>Manifesto, officially presented to the Commander of the Air >>Force, the Minister of Defense and to the President of Brazil, >>on May 20th. >>The document has been accepted and there is a strong promise >>that the Brazilian UFO researchers requests will be achieved. >>The first step was the sucessfull gathering with the military in >>Brasilia. ><snip> >Good Show A.J. This is long overdue. I am glad you have taken >this great step forward. >As I remember it, in one discussion with Semjase, she told Billy >Meier that in their view, the first world recognition of this >phenomenon would come out of Brasil, and then other nations >would begin to break from lock-step marching to the United >States tune. Hi A.J Keep up the great work. A.J you know there's always going to be knockers. The Australian Disclosure Project has had its fair share of knockers sadly most of them being from within the UFO community. But I've come to realize if these knockers have nothing constructive to offer the project, then why waste time and energy on them. Great news, Military talks to UFO researchers... Well done Brazil! Regards Diane Harrison National Director Australian UFO Research Network. Australian Skywatch Director Co Editor The Australasian UFOlogist Magazine.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:42:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:26:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:19:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:30 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>I did the cuttings and now I have something that looks like a >>swan and two bandages on my fingers. >>Could you show a picture of the thing you ended up with? >Looks about right. Similar, anyway, if not exactly the same: >http://periodictable.com/pages/AAE_SeaborgPhoto.html >You've _not_ cut all the way to the inert elements and it should >be, to show the full effects. <snip> >H & He should be back to back, as they are only S orbital, with >He above the fixed Ne (the noble elements remain the attachment >point up & down as all orbitals are filled). >It now all lines up by electron orbitals (across (s,p,d,f)) and >by "free" positions to donate or accept electrons, depending if >you are going left to right or right to left as you "slide" the >bits back in below what's above them. And chemical properties >pretty much depend on that and the mass. Thanks John: Especially for the photo., which looks like a hat I once owned. And when I get done with this quantum origami, how can I use it, productively I mean?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:27:52 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:29:26 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:22:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>I do. >In as much as this may be the reflex expression of the ready and >inflexible ideologue? Pity. There are fleets of 'something'... >be assured... past, present and likely future. Now listen up Alfred! Reflex? Inflexible ideologue?? What the hell is this? What are you rambling about man? Why you should go out of your way to insult me with utterly unjustifiable tosh like this astounds and baffles me! What credit do you think it does you? For a thoughtful and articulate (if sometime inscrutable) man you show a depressing lack of sense and an abysmal unfamiliarity with the target of your insult. I'm certainly no ufological celebrity, but hell! Check out Trindade (loads of posts on this very List and a website), Lakenheath-Bentwaters (another site) Minot AFB (major report pending), Operation Charlie, Duncanville/RB-47, Iran 1976 etc etc, dozens of complex and fascinating cases for pete's sake, RADCAT under construction at P1947 or the catalogue on the NARCAP site, and even some stuff in proper books with covers and everything. Lots of work, much of it spent in logical wrangling with the likes of Andy Roberts, Kentaro Mori and others for whom you regularly express generic contempt. And for what? So you can sit there on your cybernetic backside and sneer at _me_ for an unthinking reflex pelicanist, an inflexible ideologue?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:51:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:30:45 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Rudiak >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >After nearly six decades, why is there still no collective noun >for UFOs? >We have a covey of quails, a pride of lions, a gaggle of geese, >a shoal of fish, a murmuration (?) of starlings, etc. >So what is it (or should it be) for UFOs? >By the way, what are the collective noun for Easy. In the King's English the proper terms are: >(a) pelicans? A pandemic of pelicans. >(b) pelicanists? A plague of pelicanists. >(c) klasskurtzians? A klutz of klasskurtizians. >(d) whistleblowers? A whimper of whistleblowers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:23:37 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:37:45 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Andy Roberts <andy.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:26:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>Georgina Bruni obtained them in 2001, but I don't know precisely >>when. She learned of their existence through unrelated research >>into the Cold War. I didn't find out that she had the papers >>until later. >>Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >>numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >>extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >>published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >>a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >>scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >>some furious abuse from certain quarters. <snip> >We did _not_ publish them first in May 2002 - we published them >on 21 October 2001 in an exclusive story in The Observer, posted >at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-004.shtml >and >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m21-005.shtml Andy, The Observer ran a story about the Flying Saucer Working Party, but it's clear that neither they nor you had all the documents at the time. On page 79 of your May 2002 book on the subject, you quote the aims and objectives of the working party. Or rather, you misquote them. In fact, the terms of reference were subsequently revised. I can send you the additional documents if you wish. The Observer ran a similar story on May 5 2002: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,710181,00.html The clear implication in this article was that you and Dave Clarke had unearthed a secret CIA document written by Walter B. Smith. In fact, Timothy Good published this document in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. With the above in mind I hope you'll understand why, every time you and Dave claim to have been the first to uncover any documents, I don't believe a word you say.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Haith From: Dave Haith <visions.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:12:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:41:44 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Haith >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:02:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:10:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? My only contact with James Smith was through the Moon mission control room UFO account from Dayne Hatten. All I can say, despite this barrage of insults from John Velez reflecting a James Smith who has crawled out from under a stone, James approached that subject from an utterly responsible and non-debunking point of view. In fact he was the only person to my knowledge apart from Don Ledger on this list who bothered to investigate this case at all. James spent hours trawling through NASA recordings of lunar events in an attempt to identify the scene described by Dayne. As it happens Dayne seems to have gone quiet on this one but James' - and Don's - diligent research could well have uncovered some genuine facts about the lunar control room incident. And on the 'fleet' issue - yes I agree with James. It is a loaded word - but perhaps a forgiveable one because - as somebody has pointed out - there is no collective noun for UFOs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - ebk From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:48:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:48:41 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - ebk Before we get any further into the merits of the use of 'Fleet', let me point out that English is Santiago's second language. It was he who used the word in his initial post on the thread: >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:54:34 +0000 >Subject: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >Two new UFO fleets were videotaped over Mexico city on April 11, >2005 by skywatcher Arturo Robles Gil adding more suspense to the >very unusual UFO activity recorded recently over the world's >most populated city, a mystery that keeps the Mexican people in >a mixed state of excitement and uncertainty.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:14:26 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:39:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >>Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >>numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >>extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >>published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >>a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >>scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >>some furious abuse from certain quarters. <snip> >However Nick's post allows the innocent reader to conclude that >the report first came to light when the MoD volunteered a >simultaneous dissemination of it to "numerous ufologists" >including Clarke and Roberts in 2002. I'm sure this cannot be >the effect he intends. The reality appears to be that numerous >ufologists and journalists certainly requested copies of the >document from the MOD _after_ its disclosure by C & R in Oct >2001, but I'm aware of no evidence prior to Oct 2001 that any >ufologist possessed a copy. If they did they kept strangely >quiet about it. Martin, My understanding is that several people acquired them in 2001. Georgina Bruni, Dave Clarke and Andy Roberts definitely did. I believe that several others did too, but I'm certainly not able to give a definitive list of who got what document on what date. I'll have to leave that to those concerned. I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've _claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. Frankly, I've given up believing a word that Clarke and Roberts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:02:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:16:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:29:08 +0000 >Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:19:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >>Its interesting that you seem to feel that the disclosed data >>will help your case in the reality of UFOs (as alien spaceships, >>since we all agree that UFOs, by defintion, obviously exist). >>Perhaps, the data stored in the files will be able to be >>analyzed by new methods to provide a more prosaic explanation >>to the UFO phenomena in each case. You don't know. >The simple, obvious truth is that if the UFO reports lent >themselves to `prosaic' explanations, the military departments >of the world (not just Brazil) would have long since opened up >their files after deleting any legitimate security matters >relating to radar capabilities or the like. Wow! You are somewhat overgeneralizing aren't you? There are lots of UFO reports in the military files. Some were just filed away and forgotten and never researched. Some were tried to be analyzed but failed for various reasons. Some are really neato whiz bang genuine alien-like UFO spaceships. You could be overestimating the abilities of the military departments. I don't know, you don't know how good a specific countries military is. They are likely pretty good at killing people, but analyzing the subtilties of the UFO phenomena may be beyond their technical abilities. If they had limited access to satellite orbital data or other datasets, they may have missed some things. Also, declassified projects elsewhere may play a role in explaining prosaically the event which could not be explained at the time due to poor data set access, poor contacts. Also, I think most militaries are _not_ interested in opening their records for _any_ reason. Doesn't matter if they are prosaic or not. I am surprised that the UFO folk out there believe what they get from the military. I thought the military and government was not to be trusted? I thought all sorts of conspiracies were going on. Whats to keep them from faking records for whatever reason (misinformation)? Its claimed NASA did this on the Mars Face images and Apollo images. >The simple, obvious >truth that all long-term sceintifically and logically oriented >UFO investigators know is that just about every Air Force in the >world of any size has encountered unexplainable craft-like, >maneuvering, controlled objects and they don't quite know what >to do about it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:32:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:18:05 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:23:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:52 -0400 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>Who on this List enjoys being treated like a dope? I assume you'd >>prefer the word 'flocks'. So what? Nobody pretends to know what >>these things are, any more than they pretend photos, by themselves, >>will provide ultimate proof of anything. Don't you think readers >>know this? Don't you think your assumption is more than a little >>condescending? >Yes, I agree that we on the List are more able to sift the >meaning out of the terminology. However, when the public sees >the term, they are led down a path of meaning which is >inappropriate at this time. Ok, James, I withdraw the accusation of condescension. But photos don't carry the same weight they used to, and I don't think the public is as gullible as you seem to think.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:37:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:19:44 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Weber >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:27:39 -0300 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:06 +0100 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>>I do. >>Yes, it is a bit suggestive. >>After nearly six decades, why is there still no collective noun >>for UFOs? >>We have a covey of quails, a pride of lions, a gaggle of geese, >>a shoal of fish, a murmuration (?) of starlings, etc. >>So what is it (or should it be) for UFOs? >>By the way, what are the collective noun for >>(a) pelicans? >>(b) pelicanists? >>(c) klasskurtzians? >>(d) whistleblowers? >>Jerry Clark may be able to help with (b) >>Alfred Lehmberg may help with (c). >>and Michael Salla may help with (d) >I see a hornet's nest, I can't help pushing a stick into it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Many Thanks - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:21:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Many Thanks - Groff >From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:31:04 +0100 >Subject: Many Thanks >As some will be aware my website, The WHY? Files, passed through >a traumatic period about a year ago. This resulted in my having >no choice but to re-establish the site at a new address, namely: >http://www.thewhyfiles.net >Under these circumstances "making up lost ground" is indeed a >difficult task but I am pleased to announce that we have >recently recorded our 10 millionth hit since September 4th, >2005.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:24:28 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Groff >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:27:39 -0300 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:06 +0100 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>>I do. >>Yes, it is a bit suggestive. >>After nearly six decades, why is there still no collective >>noun for UFOs? <snip> >I see a hornet's nest, I can't help pushing a stick into it. >So just to be helpful, how about, "...an invasion of UFOs."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:42:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:25:44 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Rimmer >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:23:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:52 -0400 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>condescending? >Yes, I agree that we on the List are more able to sift the >meaning out of the terminology. However, when the public sees >the term, they are led down a path of meaning which is >inappropriate at this time. For hype purposes, "fleets" is the >most dramatic and useful term. For serious UFOlogical purposes, >it is not. If one wishes to convey to the public that one is >serious about researching this phenomena then one does not use >biased or leading terms unless one can back it up. A fleet >implies that it is either alien or human constructed spaceships. >It is hardly even a UFO at that point. I don't think this has >been proven adequately to do. >Flocks is not appropriate either. Multiple, many, numerous, >multitudinous,multitudinal,myriad, even "oodles" and "mucho" and >"slew" are more appropriate, at least for public consumption.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:37:41 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:42:21 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:39:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:21:16 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide ><snip> >>>Clarke and Roberts were sent the documents by the MOD, as were >>>numerous other ufologists and journalists. They published >>>extracts in their book in May 2002, but UFO Magazine had >>>published the documents in full, a month earlier, together with >>>a detailed analysis written by Georgina Bruni and myself. This >>>scoop was seen (incorrectly) as a deliberate spoiler, and led to >>>some furious abuse from certain quarters. ><snip> >>However Nick's post allows the innocent reader to conclude that >>the report first came to light when the MoD volunteered a >>simultaneous dissemination of it to "numerous ufologists" >>including Clarke and Roberts in 2002. I'm sure this cannot be >>the effect he intends. The reality appears to be that numerous >>ufologists and journalists certainly requested copies of the >>document from the MOD _after_ its disclosure by C & R in Oct >>2001, but I'm aware of no evidence prior to Oct 2001 that any >>ufologist possessed a copy. If they did they kept strangely >>quiet about it. >Martin, >My understanding is that several people acquired them in 2001. >Georgina Bruni, Dave Clarke and Andy Roberts definitely did. I >believe that several others did too, but I'm certainly not able >to give a definitive list of who got what document on what date. >I'll have to leave that to those concerned. >I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first >ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've >_claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an >article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a >CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was >published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. >Frankly, I've given up believing a word that Clarke and Roberts >say. Hi Nick To try and settle this, yesterday I asked Dave Clarke if they had any concrete evidence of priority in this matter. It turns out they do, and he has given me permission to post the following extract from a letter dated 25 May 2005 from Linda Unwin, MoD Directorate of Air Staff: ----- Dear Dr Clarke "With regard to the release of the report by the Flying Saucer Working Party and the Rendlesham documents, I can confirm that you were the first person to which these documents were released. It may be helpful if I explain the circumstances surrounding the release of each set of information. When you requested the Flying Saucer Working Party report in September 2000 no trace of the report could be found within MOD records. At the time, government documents were generally retained in departments for a maximum of 30 years in accordance with the Public Records Act and could only be retained for longer periods with the permission of the Lord Chancellor. The report was written in 1951 and all the files of the Flying Saucer Working Party were already at The National Archives (TNA) and as I recall you had already looked at these. We had no specific record that the report had been destroyed, but given the fact that the MOD no longer held any relevant files it seemed unlikely that the report had survived. In May 2001 Ian Goode's staff were conducting a routine review of records which had been retained in the department beyond the 30 year point and came across a copy of the Flying Saucer Working Party report on an unrelated file entitled "Scientific Intelligence". It was decided that you should be informed that the report had been found and Ian Goode released a copy to you later that month. The original report was then removed from the file, replaced with a copy and the original report was sent to TNA. It's TNA reference is DEFE 44/119. A copy of the report has also been included in the MOD Freedom of Information Publication Scheme. The majority of our correspondence files for this period are now in archives, but as far as I recall, we had a few enquiries about this document after it was released to you, but I am not aware of anyone asking this department for it prior to your request. I hope this clarifies the matter. Yours sincerely, Linda Unwin ----- It seems to me that since the document was recovered by the MOD in pursuance of a request by Dave Clarke, and was sent by the MOD exclusively to Dave Clarke immediately on its discovery, there can be no question that priority belongs entirely to Dave Clarke. The "several people who acquired the document in 2001", other than Dave Clarke, plainly did so _after_ Clarke and Roberts had established its existence and retrieved their copy. It would be undignified to continue insisting otherwise. Unless Georgina Bruni can tell us when and how she "obtained" a document which the MOD believed was "destroyed", prior to MOD discovering it themselves, and why she kept completely silent about it. The only option seems to be a Watergate scenario - surreptitious theft of the document from an MoD file by an unauthorised person who then replaced it, not in the correct file but in a "scientific intelligence" file unrelated to UFOs,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:48:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:00 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Shough >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >How about 'a wonder of UFOs'. This would cover both the not >knowing and the amazement of the sighting. Nice thought Terry. Isn't that an old Elvis number - When no one else can understand me When everything I do is wrong You give me hope and inspiration You give me strength to carry on I guess I'll never know the reason why
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:13:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:22:29 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Lehmberg >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:27:52 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:22:47 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:04:22 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >>>I do. >>In as much as this may be the reflex expression of the ready and >>inflexible ideologue? Pity. There are fleets of 'something'... >>be assured... past, present and likely future. >Now listen up Alfred! Whoa, Mr. Shough, that tone won't wash. One man's expression's _another_ man's "tosh"? Lehmberg's the name, and append, please, a "Mister" Or I'll be compelled to raise you a blister. <g> >Reflex? Inflexible ideologue?? I did append "may" to assuage any flame... But you would be angered and demonstrate same. Shout what you want from your spot in the dark..... But the depth of your pique shows we're close to the mark? <g> >What the hell is this? Ok - poetry time's over... this is a moderated forum where interested persons express their unfettered thinking on contentiously strange issues. In the debate that ensues the first man to anger is the one that would lose. Ooops, that just slipped out, sorry. I got the music in me... Mr. Shough, did it ever occur to you that it was not _you_ who was the inflexible ideologue, but that I merely point out that you, too quickly, agreed with one? >What are you rambling about man? I think I was pretty clear, Sir. I think your reactionary response here demonstrates you thought I was pretty clear, too, or you would have either ignored me or responded with a "huh"? or a "what"? Any more, a protestation that I'm "not clear" seems to be the last refuge of a scoundrel, present company excluded, of course. You just got a _lot_ less of the scatter gun blast than you thought you did. You lay down with a metaphoric dog and I allowed you may have come up with a flea? I wasn't clear enough you weren't the 'dog'? I apologize, but not by much. >Why you should go out of your way to insult me with utterly >unjustifiable tosh like this astounds and baffles me! What >credit do you think it does you? Credit is as credit does, Sir. I'm not concerned overmuch with the credit perceived as I am with how I define it, myself. None are discredited by that which they do as much as that which they would _affect_ to do, sometimes. If I may, your affectation may be a reliance on concern regarding how others credit you for your expressions while dismissing how you, first, feel about them yourself... so you keep safe relying on discredited conventional wisdoms regarding 'evidence' and 'proof' so as to stay safe within the box? I think you have it backwards if you do. Many times the credit you give yourself ('respect' a synonym?) primes the pump for the credit from others. That's my experience. To thine own self be true, and all that? As it was? There was no insult. >For a thoughtful and articulate (if sometime inscrutable) man >you show a depressing lack of sense and an abysmal unfamiliarity >with the target of your insult. Oh - I think I'm pretty 'scrutable. Likely I'm a little too 'scrutable for some, is the problem... a little too willing to go where some would fear to tread? I apologize that I depress you with an abysmal unfamiliarity, that was not my intent. I merely pointed out that your too quick response to a very *certain* Mr. Smith may have been taken as a "ditto" for the thinking proffered... thinking that could be termed reflexively obtuse, or the thinking of an ideologue, flatly. >I'm certainly no ufological celebrity, but hell! Check out >Trindade (loads of posts on this very List and a website), >Lakenheath-Bentwaters (another site) Minot AFB (major report >pending), Operation Charlie, Duncanville/RB-47, Iran 1976 etc >etc, dozens of complex and fascinating cases for pete's sake, >RADCAT under construction at P1947 or the catalogue on the >NARCAP site, and even some stuff in proper books with covers and >everything. Mr. Shough, that we are in concert at all now or have ever been in the past is not the issue. Our communications must be minute to minute if we are to be truthseekers. Response 'content' based on ideology is for repugnicans and pelicanists who make a point of not disagreeing with each other where real truthseekers can hear them. You've done good work, and we've agreed in the past... I suspect we'll agree again in the future. >Lots of work, much of it spent in logical wrangling with the >likes of Andy Roberts, Kentaro Mori and others for whom you >regularly express generic contempt. Yeah - but... so? The collegiate relationship I would have with you by far and away would exceed that with Mr. Mori or <shake, shudder, dry-heave>that whiner Andy Roberts (... can't wait for your usual tripe-mail, honey bumps... do hurry!), but that can't preclude the odd point... and should it? The point, as I wrote, is that there are "fleets" (... armadas, clutches, covens, herds, coveys, flocks, nests, gaggles, schools... a lot?) of _something_ out there, over many parts of the world and for an extended period of time. A dissembling admonishment about word 'bias' by a known quantity like the lovely Mr. Smith only allows for continued plausible deniability, ongoing insentient debate, and more raised dust precluding clarity. I merely suggested that you support the 'opposition' to readily... and that that was a "pity." >And for what? By this point you may agree that you went off on me too soon. >So you can sit there on your cybernetic backside and sneer at >_me_ for an unthinking reflex pelicanist, an inflexible >ideologue? Ouch - given how you initially took my mere observation, I'll just let that slide. Besides, you elected to perceive a sneer where there was none. And what's up with that? >Sheesh! Wake up - or shut up! This is where a HAL 9000 would suggest you take a stress pill and relax, "Dave." You protest too much. You have my regard and respect, Sir. I'm wide awake, and my silence is not in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:04:48 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:16:35 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:23:37 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Andy Roberts <andy.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:26:16 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >Andy, >The Observer ran a story about the Flying Saucer Working Party, >but it's clear that neither they nor you had all the documents >at the time. On page 79 of your May 2002 book on the subject, >you quote the aims and objectives of the working party. Or >rather, you misquote them. In fact, the terms of reference were >subsequently revised. I can send you the additional documents if >you wish. <snip> I leave it to Andy to comment on the remainder of your post, but I do feel qualified to comment on the above section. It might be that you have come across documents that I haven't seen during my three trips (totalling over 1000 miles, unfortunately I don't live in or near London) to TNA specifically to study the DSI/JTIC minutes. If so, I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction, if you would be kind enough to identify your source. >From my records, the terms of reference which you promote at: >http://www.nickpope.net/official_history.htm ----- 1. To review the available evidence in reports of "Flying Saucers". 2. To examine from now on the evidence on which reports of British origin of phenomena attributed to "Flying Saucers" are based. 3. To report to DSI/JTIC as necessary. 4. To keep in touch with American occurrences and evaluation of such ----- were agreed in minute #6 of the 11th (1950) meeting of the DSI/JTIC held on 29th August 1950. Clarke and Roberts verion from page 79 of Out Of The Shadows, reads as follows: ----- 1. To review the available evidence in reports of Flying Saucers. 2. To examine the evidence on which future reports of British origin of phenomena attributed to 'Flying Saucers' are based". 3. To report DSI/JTIC. ----- I am not entirely sure where this version is sourced from though they reference the same document that I do below which contains a different version to both yours and theirs: ----- 1. To review the available evidence in reports of Flying Saucers. 2. To examine the evidence on which [illegible] reports of British origin of phenomena attributed to 'Flying Saucers' are based. 3. To report as requisite. ----- which was taken from an annex to minute #11 of the 14th (1950) meeting of the DSI/JTIC held on 10th October 1950. This certainly appears to post-date your preferred version and is more similar to Clarke and Roberts' version than it is to yours. I am puzzled as to why reference to "American occurrences and evaluation of such" was removed, especially since the final report relies so heavily on the US investigations.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: Many Thanks - Richardson From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:27:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:18:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Many Thanks - Richardson >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Many Thanks >>From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:31:04 +0100 >>Subject: Many Thanks >Wow! You must have a wormhole or something. :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Mexican UFO Photo And Analysis From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:44:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:22:08 -0400 Subject: Mexican UFO Photo And Analysis INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 26, 2005 Source: Planeta UFO Date: May 25, 2005 Mexico: UFO Photo And Analysis Dear readers of Inexplicata -- we have received another photo plus the corresponding image analyses from Prof. Ana Luisa Cid of Mexico City. Below is the text of her message: ----- Photo taken at 4:19 p.m. in Mexico City on May 25, 2005. I am aware that many [of these] images have a logical explanation, but I nonetheless believe that there are others which are harder to understand, particularly those which are invisible to the human eye, meaning fortuitious UFOs. It is important to reiterate that yours truly did not believe in the phenomenon; I was almost certain that digital hoaxes or errors of perception were involved. But upon becoming a direct witness to the phenomenon, my perceptions about this type of sighting have changed. I am growing accustomed to finding strange elements in the photographs, but I believe that this particular image goes slightly beyond the range of what I'd photographed before. I personally believe that there are two possible explanations for it: a) They could be devices (either terrestrial or alien) which are powered by a technology different from our own at frequencies that cannot be perceived by the human eye, but which are susceptible to being videotaped and photographed; b) Or else they could be structures that travel at prodigious speeds and can therefore not be picked up by mere sight...something similar to sleight-of-hand trickery. I am truly startled by yesterday's image, as is my family, since they were present when I took photos that afternoon. The equipment I use is a Mustek brand video and still camera, and I took care to preserve the original image in the camera's memory. The border and contour analysis was performed with Corel PhotoPaint 12. In closing, I would like to cordially invite all of you to become witnesses to fortuitous UFOs by taking photographs of the sky, since there is nothing better than experiencing it in order to believe it.. Regards to all Ana Luisa Cid. ----- Translation (c) 2005 Scott Corrales
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Secrecy News -- 05/26/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:36:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:23:37 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/26/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 50 May 26, 2005 ** JASON ON SENSORS TO SUPPORT THE SOLDIER ** THE EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT (CRS) ** HOUSE SEEKS INVENTORY OF DOD INTEL PROGRAMS ** HOUSE CALLS FOR STRATEGY ON OPEN SOURCE INTEL ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS JASON ON SENSORS TO SUPPORT THE SOLDIER New technologies to aid Marines and other U.S. military forces engaged in urban combat are explored in a recent report from the secretive JASON scientific advisory group. "The JASON study focused on the following topic areas: squad- level communications; location, navigation, and maps; sensing through walls; countering snipers; and uses for UAVs," according to the unclassified report, a copy of which was obtained by Secrecy News. Conclusions range from prosaic -- "the most pressing technological need is a radio for every infantryman" -- to seemingly futuristic: "Technology exists which should allow a small array of microphones to be attached to a soldier's helmet, along with a small microprocessor that is activated only when a supersonic shock wave from a sniper's bullet is detected. The array determines the direction of the sniper... without distracting the soldier." The JASON study addresses a spectrum of complex technological issues with unusual lucidity that makes them at least partially comprehensible to a non-specialist reader. The JASON group cultivates a slightly-frayed mystique that extends even to its peculiar name. Some say it is an allusion to Jason and the Argonauts. Others say it is an acronym for the late summer and autumn months when JASON does most of its work: July, August, September, October, November. The new study includes JASON in its list of acronyms (p. 101) but provides no expansion of the term. See "Sensors to Support the Soldier," JASON, February 2005 (1.6 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/sensors.pdf An FAS archive of JASON studies may be found here: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/index.html THE EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT (CRS) There has long been a consensus that the export of certain military or dual-use technologies must be regulated. But the application of export controls has also drawn occasional protests from affected industries, and in some cases has become so burdensome as to have unintended adverse consequences on U.S. scientists. (See, e.g., "Controls on 'Deemed Exports' May Threaten Research," Secrecy News, May 2, 2005). The Congressional Research Service recently prepared a useful introduction to the subject. See "The Export Administration Act: Evolution, Provisions, and Debate," updated May 5, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL31832.pdf HOUSE SEEKS INVENTORY OF DOD INTEL PROGRAMS In an implicit acknowledgment of the limitations of congressional oversight, the House Armed Services Committee asked the Department of Defense to provide it with a comprehensive inventory of DoD intelligence programs. "The committee believes that it does not have complete visibility into some defense intelligence programs that do not clearly fall into the Joint Military Intelligence Program (JMIP) or under the Tactical Intelligence and Related Activities (TIARA) categories." "Specifically, the committee notes that individual services may have intelligence or intelligence-related programs such as science and technology projects or information operations programs related to defense intelligence that are embedded in other service budget line items." See Section 932 of the pending House version of the 2006 Defense Authorization Act here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/dod-inventory.html HOUSE CALLS FOR STRATEGY ON OPEN SOURCE INTEL In the pending Defense Authorization Act, the House Armed Services Committee also directed the Department of Defense to develop a strategy for better integrating open source intelligence into the military intelligence production cycle. "The amount, significance, and accessibility of open-source information has exploded," the Committee said, "but the Intelligence Community has not expanded its exploitation efforts and systems to produce open-source intelligence." See Section 931 of the House version of the 2006 Defense Authorization Act here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/dod-osint.html SELECTED CRS REPORTS Some recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "U.S. Assistance to North Korea," updated April 26, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31785.pdf "Terrorism and Security Issues Facing the Water Infrastructure Sector," updated April 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32189.pdf "Space Launch Vehicles: Government Activities, Commercial Competition, and Satellite Exports," updated April 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/space/IB93062.pdf "Detention of American Citizens as Enemy Combatants," updated March 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL31724.pdf "Argentina: Political Conditions and U.S. Relations," updated March 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21113.pdf "Foreign Direct Investment in the United States: An Economic Analysis," updated March 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21857.pdf "Missile Defense: The Current Debate," updated March 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL31111.pdf "Military Space Programs: Issues Concerning DOD's SBIRS and STSS Programs," updated March 17, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21148.pdf "Moldova: Background and U.S. Policy," updated March 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21981.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:39:57 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Tonnies >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:24:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >Although the majority of people, including SETI scientists, talk >about life beyond Earth as if it was an established fact, the >sobering reality is that after all these years, we do not have >more compelling evidence now than we did anytime in the past for >this popular belief (with the possible exception of certain >ancient historical/religious documents where our ancestors >allegedly encountered intelligent beings from the heavens). This >lack of compelling evidence for life beyond Earth must include >the frequent accounts of strange lights in the sky and reported >sightings of other such UFOs. Hi Nick, Alhough controversial, I think further evidence for ET intelligence can be found in the form of tangible artifacts on the surface of Mars, and quite possibly the Moon as well. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 'Extraterrestrial: Imagining Other Worlds' From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:26:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:42:01 -0400 Subject: 'Extraterrestrial: Imagining Other Worlds' List members might be interested - from: http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_devore_ettv_050526.html ----- ET is coming to your living room in Extraterrestrial, and no one is being abducted. Over the past several months, a top-notch group of American and British scientists teamed up with Blue Wave Productions, Ltd. (for the National Geographic) to imagine what ET is like on other worlds. ----- cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:31:23 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:44:17 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - > From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> > To: <ufoupdates.nul> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:37:41 +0100 > Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:39:54 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> Errol, If you ask me [which you didn't], this thread too, is a waste of bandwidth. Why don't the affected listers take it offline and battle it out there? It's the documentation itself that is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:05:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:21:50 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:31:23 -0300 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >If you ask me [which you didn't], this thread too, is a waste of >bandwidth. Why don't the affected listers take it offline and >battle it out there? It's the documentation itself that is >important, not who got it first. We'll be down to hours and >minutes before too long. >Don Ledger Unfortunately. the "affected listers" includes everyone who produces original research, and as such it is vital to ufology as a whole. How would you feel, Don, if having spent two years of research someone came along and claimed that you had nothing to do with the results? The consequence of this, as I have pointed out, is a reluctance to share early research results. This in turn means less collaboration, and less progress. If we sit idly by and let disputed claims go unchallenged in the open, ufology will become even more retarded that it already is.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:19:53 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:44:39 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - Hello List, >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:04:48 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >Clarke and Roberts verion from page 79 of Out Of The Shadows, >reads as follows: >----- >1. To review the available evidence in reports of Flying >Saucers. >2. To examine the evidence on which future reports of British >origin of phenomena attributed to 'Flying Saucers' are based". >3. To report DSI/JTIC. >----- >I am not entirely sure where this version is sourced from though >they reference the same document that I do below which contains >a different version to both yours and theirs: <snip> I just checked with Dave Clarke, and the entry in the book was an error. Item #3 should have read: "3. To report as requisite" which agrees with my own records.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:06:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:47:01 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:24:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? ><snip> >>Although the majority of people, including SETI scientists, talk >>about life beyond Earth as if it was an established fact, the >>sobering reality is that after all these years, we do not have >>more compelling evidence now than we did anytime in the past for >>this popular belief (with the possible exception of certain >>ancient historical/religious documents where our ancestors >>allegedly encountered intelligent beings from the heavens). This >>lack of compelling evidence for life beyond Earth must include >>the frequent accounts of strange lights in the sky and reported >>sightings of other such UFOs. >Alhough controversial, I think further evidence for ET >intelligence can be found in the form of tangible artifacts on >the surface of Mars, and quite possibly the Moon as well. I think there is compelling evidence in the form of eyewitness testimony from all over the world of clearly manufactured objects behaving in ways that we earthlings can't duplicate or we would in military applications. I include the 3000+ physical trace cases from Ted Phillips from 90+ countries as well as many mutiple witness radar visual cases such as investigated by Dr. James E. Macdonald.There are the non phony photographs examined by Bruce Maccabee. There is also a substantial body of evidence related to Roswell. There are a number similar abduction accounts from many countries including physical markings on the abductees. We have the overwhelming evidence of government coverups in the form of blacked out and whited out documents. Can I provide an alien body or a piece of wreckage? no. Courts of law have even convicted people of murder with less evidence. In Texas people have had the death penalty based on testimony from one witness. Based on my direct experience with the SETI cultists, they are totally unfamilar with the huge body of evidence. They, of course, have none that there is anybody out there or anybody sending signals using primitive technology compatible with our primitive technology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Extraterrestrial: Imagining Other Worlds' - From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:48:49 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Extraterrestrial: Imagining Other Worlds' - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:26:20 +0100 >Subject: 'Extraterrestrial: Imagining Other Worlds' >List members might be interested - from: >http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_devore_ettv_050526.html >----- >ET is coming to your living room in Extraterrestrial, and no >one is being abducted. Over the past several months, a top-notch >group of American and British scientists teamed up with Blue >Wave Productions, Ltd. (for the National Geographic) to imagine >what ET is like on other worlds. I watched "Alien Planet" on the Discovery Channel the other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 26 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:29:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:50:27 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term Hello All, EBK writes: >Before we get any further into the merits of the use >of 'Fleet', let me point out that English is Santiago's >second language. It was he who used the word in his >initial post on the thread: >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:54:34 +0000 >>Subject: More UFO Fleets Over Mexico >>Two new UFO fleets were videotaped over Mexico city on April 11, >>2005 by skywatcher Arturo Robles Gil adding more suspense to the >>very unusual UFO activity recorded recently over the world's >>most populated city, a mystery that keeps the Mexican people in >>a mixed state of excitement and uncertainty. Now you're just confusing the issue with annoying facts! ;) >Now, if we can get back to some useful discussion and bandwidth >use..... >ebk A 'Hallelujah,' from the Amen corner!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 UFO Sighted In Olmsted Falls Ohio Sky From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:01:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:01:34 -0400 Subject: UFO Sighted In Olmsted Falls Ohio Sky Source: WEWS-TV News Channel 5 - Cleveland, Ohio http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4534754/detail.html May 26, 2005 Report: UFO Sighted In Olmsted Falls Sky Ohio Has 2nd Most Sightings In Country [Picture & Video] CLEVELAND -- Ohio is home to some of the most UFO sightings in the country. The strange sightings don't end in the night sky, they also lurk in the woods and lakes of northeast Ohio, NewsChannel5's Paul Kiska reported. Kiska reported that police are even left stunned by some of the reports, and the video of UFO sightings can bring chills to even skeptics. And Ohio has the second highest number of reported UFO sightings. Last week, Olmsted Falls police officers took pictures after getting calls from anxious residents who saw strange green and red lights moving across the night sky. Police officers observed the moving lights even though the Hopkins International Airport radar didn't indicate anything was in the area. Police later heard that a new blimp from Akron Goodyear was being tested, but there were no sightings reported between Akron and Olmsted Falls, Kiska reported. NewsChannel5's photographer Tom Deau has seen a UFO. He shared his story from the summer of 1984. "It was just hovering in the sky, and, whew, it took off -- gone," Deau said. "It still gives me chills today telling the story. Just weird." Even Bigfoot or Sasquatch sightings have been reported from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:08:24 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:07:35 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:05:09 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:31:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide ><snip> >>If you ask me [which you didn't], this thread too, is a waste of >>bandwidth. Why don't the affected listers take it offline and >>battle it out there? It's the documentation itself that is >>important, not who got it first. We'll be down to hours and >>minutes before too long. >>Don Ledger >Unfortunately. the "affected listers" includes everyone who produces original research, and as such it is vital to ufology as a whole. How would you feel, Don, if having spent two years of research someone came along and claimed that you had nothing to do with the results? >The consequence of this, as I have pointed out, is a reluctance to share early research results. This in turn means less collaboration, and less progress. If we sit idly by and let disputed claims go unchallenged in the open, ufology will become even more retarded that it already is. >Regards, >Joe (Retard-in-chief) Where confusion applied to specific cases from the documents I could understand the need for accuracy, but the legitimacy of the documents from TNA would not be in question, regardless of who got them in the first place. But don't you think that Roberts or Clarke can argue this in their own stead rather than you and Martin with Nick Pope. They are the ones affected. As for collaboration, I think it will be a frosty day in hell before you and Nick line up on the same side. Re retarded, are you referring to us as being mentally challenged or retarded as in the sense of being held back?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:04:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:13:45 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term - Velez >From: Dave Haith <visions.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:12:57 +0100 >Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:02:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:10:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>>Subject: 'Fleet' Is Biased Term >>>>Who on the List believes that the very term "Fleets" used to >>>>describe the Mexican UFO videos is biased and leads the reader >>>>to believe the video is of a collection of intelligently >>>>controllable vehicles which may at least (though highly >>>>unlikely) have origination from contemporary Earth and at most >>>>derive from alien (off-world, time travelers, whatever)? >My only contact with James Smith was through the Moon mission >control room UFO account from Dayne Hatten. Hello David, All, *ut of respect for the List's moderator this will be my last post to this particular thread. I felt I had to respond to this one as it mentions my name. EBK... promise, my last word on this one. Thank you for your indulgence. JV David wrote: >All I can say, despite this barrage of insults from John Velez >reflecting a James Smith who has crawled out from under a stone, My treatment of Mr. Smith on this List is carefully calculated to be the exact same "in-kind" treatment he metes out to others. ie; Santiago Yturria, A.J. Gevaerd, Jaime Maussan, etc. Quite frankly I became a bit tired of sitting idly by while he spins out reams of thinly veiled insults on an almost daily basis to anyone daring to make any claims of legitimacy for _any_ of the Mexican cases. The difference between my responses to Smith and Mr. Smith's insults to everyone connected to the Mexican cases, is a matter of simple directness and old fashioned honesty. Example: Mr. Smith will go out of his way to use terms that he considers demeaning like, "true believer" in conjunction with a laundry list of thinly veiled insults whenever he communicates with one of us. Most especially me. He literally drips venom when he addresses me. <eg> He claims that because he doesn't connect my name to the word directly, that he can 'dance' his way out of taking responsibility for having made the insult or insinuation. In other words, he'll talk about 'True Believers' in a post that is addressed to me, but then he will -dishonestly- turn around and claim that it is not me he is talking about. "Plausible deniability." Yuppie hog-wash. Mr. Smith thinks the more make-up you put on a pig, the more attractive it will become. He refuses to take responsibility for what he clearly intends as hurtful or demeaning insults. It's a dishonest lawyer's tactic. "Say the words" in public/open court, knowing full-well in advance that you'll be censured by the judge. But, in the meantime, the damage is done! The jury heard it! The word, 'murderer' or in this case (True Believer) hangs in the air. The insult has been delivered. The part that irks me is; he goes out of his way to 'set it up' so he doesn't have to take any heat for his disrespect and poor treatment of others. That dog won't hunt! I will say this though, Mr. Smith doesn't seem to take it very well when you serve him up a healthy, heaping dose of his own medicine. Which is precisely the steady diet I have very intentionally been keeping him on. :D Actually, to be frank, since I came back to the List, my role has been more one of a 'rodeo clown' than anything else. All the bull can see is me waving my hands in his face. The cowboy is long gone from the ring. Bulls just aren't as 'smart' as they think they are, sometimes. <lol> Maybe the insults and the attitude will lighten up a bit now that he will have to answer for his own poor and disrespectful treatment of others. No more "free-ride" on the List for our Mr. Smith. I plan to hold up a mirror for him each and every time he reaches for the Pomade to make himself look 'slick.' ;) Like Bugs Bunny once said, "He don't know me vewy well, do he?" He, he, he. >James approached that subject from an utterly responsible and >non-debunking point of view. Maybe in _that_ case, I don't know. But he has certainly made up his mind, (well in advance of all the evidence being in) about a group of cases and events going on in Mexico that could very well prove to be historic in nature. 'Prejudging' anything is never a wise idea. Including people he doesn't know personally. If Mr. Smith wants to be treated with respect he will just have to learn how to give it. If Mr. Smith doesn't like being insulted and talked down to in public, maybe he should try knocking it off, himself.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:02:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:15:03 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Balaskas >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:06:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:24:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: CI: The End of SETI As We Know It? >><snip> >>>Although the majority of people, including SETI scientists, talk >>>about life beyond Earth as if it was an established fact, the >>>sobering reality is that after all these years, we do not have >>>more compelling evidence now than we did anytime in the past for >>>this popular belief (with the possible exception of certain >>>ancient historical/religious documents where our ancestors >>>allegedly encountered intelligent beings from the heavens). This >>>lack of compelling evidence for life beyond Earth must include >>>the frequent accounts of strange lights in the sky and reported >>>sightings of other such UFOs. >>Alhough controversial, I think further evidence for ET >>intelligence can be found in the form of tangible artifacts on >>the surface of Mars, and quite possibly the Moon as well. >I think there is compelling evidence in the form of eyewitness >testimony from all over the world of clearly manufactured >objects behaving in ways that we earthlings can't duplicate or >we would in military applications. I include the 3000+ physical >trace cases from Ted Phillips from 90+ countries as well as many >mutiple witness radar visual cases such as investigated by Dr. >James E. Macdonald.There are the non phony photographs examined >by Bruce Maccabee. There is also a substantial body of evidence >related to Roswell. Hi Stan and Mac! Yes Stan, I agree that all this is very compelling evidence that UFOs are "real" but it's not really compelling enough for us to conclude with certainty that even a small number of these UFOs are indeed ET craft built and/or piloted by intelligent beings not from this Earth. There are other scenarios, although maybe not as extreme or unlikely as the ET one, that could better explain what continues to be seen and reported in our skies which this space-age generation has overlooked. One of these is what John Keel called "Ultraterrestrials". This would include all highly intelligent beings or species that coexist with us on this planet such as bees, demons or elves and dolphins, just to mention a few possibilities. As an example of what I mean, consider what my friend Wayne once told me. He was hiking along the deep Pacific coast of British Columbia while under the close scrutiny of an apparently very curious whale. As Wayne walked along the coast the whale closely followed, both eyeing each other all the time. My friend wondered what was going through the whale's mind. Was the whale wondering about how Wayne lived in this alien waterless world of mountains and trees? Was it wondering what Wayne did to survive and for entertainment, such as the music he played or listened to? Then a humbling thought came to Wayne's mind. Although we consider ourselves the only intelligent creatures on Earth who have adapted and populated much of this planet, we hardly knew anything about the alien water world of the whales which covers more of our planet than land does. >There are a number similar abduction accounts from many >countries including physical markings on the abductees. We have >the overwhelming evidence of government coverups in the form of >blacked out and whited out documents. Can I provide an alien >body or a piece of wreckage? no. Courts of law have even >convicted people of murder with less evidence. In Texas people >have had the death penalty based on testimony from one witness. In Saudi Arabia where I once lived and worked, the death penalty was applied for capital offenses only after the testimonies of several witnesses. It is for the same reason why Allan Hynek considered UFO sightings by multiple witnesses more interesting and credible than single witness ones. Even scientists and other skilled observers such as pilots and police officers can be totally wrong in the interpretation of what they actually saw. As for physical markings on abductees, suspected or otherwise, dermatologists and other medical experts can provide what to me are more rational and reasonable explanations. >Based on my direct experience with the SETI cultists, they are >totally unfamilar with the huge body of evidence. They, of >course, have none that there is anybody out there or anybody >sending signals using primitive technology compatible with our >primitive technology. >I can't force them to look at the evidence. Obviously if aliens >are visiting, there is not much need for the Silly Effort To >Investigate. Since radio waves are produced by natural objects in space and their detection can be used to study and understand the physics of stars, galaxies and the gases in space between them, it is not hard to imagine that intelligent ETs, if they do indeed exist out there, would not use radio wave detection equipment similar to what we have here on Earth. Since the SETI investigators have not detected the presence of ETs after many decades of searching our small region of the galaxy (remembering that equipment such as the centuries old internal combustion engines and the more recent plasma drives also produce telltale radio waves too) and it has not yet been established that those unexplained things or UFOs in the sky are actually ET spacecraft, we may conclude that we are either unique or special in the universe or we are still simply too dumb know better - just like the whale cannot possibly even imagine the world of man and man cannot fathom the world of the whale even though we both share the very same planet. As for Mac's comment that evidence for ET "intelligence" can be found in the form of tangible artifacts on the surface of Mars, I am not aware of these tangible artifacts which he refers to. As for other evidence for ET "life" on Mars, we still observe seasonal colour changes on this planet for example. These cyclic changes were first noticed by astronomers many decades before we visited the planet with our fleet of spacecraft from Earth. Recent Earth based spectroscopic observations that have even identified the presence of chlorophyll type compounds on Mars similar to those found on plants here on Earth but are still largely ignored by the scientific community for some reason - not unlike the 1976 discovery of microbial life on Mars with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:25:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:16:46 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:06:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >I can't force them to look at the evidence. Obviously if aliens >are visiting, there is not much need for the Silly Effort To >Investigate. I agree, Stan. It is really pretty silly to think that alien life forms would still be using radio. It's about like the Native Americans of the plains watching for smoke signals to prove their were Europeans. On the other hand, I have looked at the evidence, and I am not yet convinced that there is an extraterrestrial component to the UFO phenomenon. There are many other possibilities that we (UFOlogy) are ignoring. In our own way we are just as blind as the SETI folks if we insist on pounding the square peg of UFO phenomena into the round hole of ET.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs [was: British National From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:28:21 -0400 Subject: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs [was: British National >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first >ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've >_claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an >article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a >CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was >published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:23:37 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>From: Andy Roberts <andy.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:26:16 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >The Observer ran a similar story on May 5 2002: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,710181,00.html >The clear implication in this article was that you and Dave >Clarke had unearthed a secret CIA document written by Walter B. >Smith. In fact, Timothy Good published this document in 1987, in >his book Above Top Secret. In fact there was never any such secret CIA document written by CIA Director Walter B. Smith in the first place. This is a serious error of document analysis. Enthusiasts who desperately want an all-important CIA Director to seemingly be treating UFOs as a matter of national security have conveniently failed to read that this one-page document was a DRAFT written by a lower level CIA official (CIA OSI chief Chadwell) and sent to DCI Smith in Sept 1952 for his signature and for Smith to send it officially to the National Security Council (NSC). But Director Smith never signed the DRAFT and never sent any such thing off to the NSC. He quite obviously had rejected it! Chadwell kept re-sending the document for Smith's signature and urging him to approve OSI's heroic plan to take over the UFO problem from the AF and set up a government-wide serious scientific investigation of UFOs, to be directed by the illustrious MIT - in other words every UFO researcher's dream. However the enthusiasts refuse to be bothered with such minor matters as reading documents in context, reading chains of correspondence for responses and non-responses, discerning whether "attachments" are drafts and unapproved (or subsequently rejected by what we would call in legislative affairs a "pocket veto", you just sit on it and don't act within a period of time and it dies without having to make a public or even an internal official expression of rejection). Rank-and-file UFO researchers also do not want the CIA to get any credit for a heroic role because they have already made up their minds that the CIA can only have a villainous role in the UFO controversy, the CIA can only be the evil agency behind the "sinister coverup" of proof of alien visitation, and that CIA officials were behind the despised Robertson Panel as diabolical ETH-denying debunkers. In fact the AF was behind the Robertson Panel and forced it on the CIA. The CIA did not want a hasty small panel rushing to judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific study of UFOs preferably at MIT. In fact CIA/OSI tried to postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical study but got overruled by evident AF pressure on DCI Smith. The AF had gone over the CIA's heads in the first place to the IAC and manipulated orders for a quickie panel done as fast as possible. The AF tricked the CIA with deviously selected IFO cases dressed up as the "best" UFOs. Based on this the CIA reached the conclusion that UFOs were ET in origin in late 1952 (as Chadwell and his deputy Ralph Clark both told me) but only until the AF sprung its trap at the Robertson Panel. As the AF planned, the supposed "best UFO" cases blew up into IFO's at the Robertson Panel, which never got the set of best cases that Ruppelt kept in a special file collection. The CIA was humiliated and never suspected it was an AF trick. The CIA was thus manipulated by the AF into drawing the conclusion that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:57:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:02:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:29:08 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Brazilian UFO Disclosure Preparing The Field <snip> >Also, I think most militaries are _not_ interested in opening >their records for _any_ reason. Doesn't matter if they are >prosaic or not. >I am surprised that the UFO folk out there believe what they get >from the military. I thought the military and government was not >to be trusted? I thought all sorts of conspiracies were going >on. Whats to keep them from faking records for whatever reason >(misinformation)? Its claimed NASA did this on the Mars Face >images and Apollo images. >>The simple, obvious >>truth that all long-term sceintifically and logically oriented >>UFO investigators know is that just about every Air Force in the >>world of any size has encountered unexplainable craft-like, >>maneuvering, controlled objects and they don't quite know what >>to do about it. >I agree that there are many such cases. But also prosaic ones. Dear James, Dick, Listers: After years of studying camouflage, concealment and deception, I found the art of deception to be the very foundation upon which these and many other strategies are built. With two degrees in psychology, the use of perception manipulation, propaganda, misinformation and disinformation in the UFO community often stands out like a sore thumb. Since many governments and militaries regularly employ the art of deception in their activities, it would be insane to assume information released through pressure from interest groups, FOIA's or legislations contain all the truth or any truth at all. If a government and/or military does not want the public to know something, they don't share it. Period. So when they do share information otherwise considered "classified", one must always ask, "Why?" Why would any government or military agency share information they don't want the public to know? This is when you must use restraint and caution rather than zeal and celebration for your beliefs can and will be used against you. Those who believe and have a vested interest in the existence of UFOs as ET craft are most vulnerable to misinformation and disinformation because they can be told exactly what they want to hear and will quickly and efficiently spread the information, true or false, to the UFO community. By keeping the focus on 'secret' and 'classified', the public is led to assume it _must_ be the truth. By releasing the information through high ranking military personnel and/or government agencies, the public will assume it is official and therefore true. Also, why release information through UFO investigators instead of going directly to the public and making the announcements themselves? On the surface, this may make sense but once you begin to analyze these actions, they don't quite add up. Is it because releasing information to UFO agencies and/or representatives helps maintain the giggle factor and reduces the credibility of the information? Or is it yet another way to spread more propaganda about UFOs? Are they releasing the information because it's the truth or because they want people to _think_ it's the truth? There are no "simple" truths when it comes to UFOs. Taking anything seen or heard at face value is foolhardy. As much as we may like to keep UFOs and information releases simple and logical, it never had been nor will be so easy. Accepting the complexities of our militaries, governments and UFOs is the first step out of ignorance. A. Hebert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Man Claims Aliens Made Him Murder Friend From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:56:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:42:22 -0400 Subject: Man Claims Aliens Made Him Murder Friend Source: The News and Star - UK http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=232354 24-05-2005 Aliens Made Me Kill Him By Nick Griffiths A man accused of murdering his neighbour told police he killed him after being abducted by aliens. John Robert Sutton, 39, claimed he had been taken "from above" by white-suited aliens and made to kill Emilio Moya, who lived alone in the flat below him on Lister Court, Raffles, Carlisle. John Jones QC, prosecuting, told a jury at Preston Crown Court yesterday that Sutton made the claim after being found lying in a drunken stupor off Wigton Road, shortly before the body of Mr Moya was found. But Mr Jones said Sutton now claims he has no memory of killing Mr Moya - or of making any admissions. Sutton has pleaded not guilty to murdering Mr Moya and stealing a credit card and cash belonging to him. The body of Mr Moya, a Spanish national who moved to live with his wife in Carlisle in the early 90s, was found semi-naked and stuffed into a cupboard at his blood-soaked flat in the early hours of May 29 last year. The 58-year-old father-of-two, who had split from his wife, died from head injuries caused in a sustained attack. The court was told his attacker used fists, feet, a broken wine bottle or glass and possibly a vacuum cleaner. Fifty-six different wounds were identified. Mr Jones told the court police were called after a man walking his dog found Sutton passed out near public toilets near the Ukrainian Club, off Wigton Road. "He said he had been taken from above," said Mr Jones. "He said aliens had descended to Earth, abducted himself and Mr Moya and made him kill Mr Moya." Officers went to Mr Moya's flat where they found blood on the inside of the window. A blood-stained towel was on the floor inside and blood was spattered around. The body of Mr Moya was discovered with a flex across his neck. He was wearing only underpants and socks. Mr Jones said that in interviews, Sutton told police: "The aliens came yesterday. We lost eight hours and they were doing things to us. I tell you, I killed him. They made me." In a second interview, Sutton was said to have admitted killing Mr Moya, but claimed he didn't know why. "I just remember going ballistic," he told officers. The court heard that Mr Moya was an alcoholic who suffered from paranoia and schizophrenia. He was a regular at the Lowther Street bar Pippins, where he was described by staff there as "quiet, polite and well mannered". The jury was told that on the morning before he was found dead, Mr Moya and Sutton went to Carlisle Police Station, where they told staff they had been abducted by aliens. Moya was seen to have a bruised jaw. Later that day, Sutton was seen in TK Maxx, where he was in such a hurry to buy new clothes he tried on a pair of jeans in view of staff on the shop floor. The trial continues. more at: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=240407 http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=235910 http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=240407
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:26:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:46:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:42:32 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:19:01 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:30 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>>I did the cuttings and now I have something that looks like a >>>swan and two bandages on my fingers. >>>Could you show a picture of the thing you ended up with? >>Looks about right. Similar, anyway, if not exactly the same: >>http://periodictable.com/pages/AAE_SeaborgPhoto.html >>You've _not_ cut all the way to the inert elements and it should >>be, to show the full effects. ><snip> >>H & He should be back to back, as they are only S orbital, with >>He above the fixed Ne (the noble elements remain the attachment >>point up & down as all orbitals are filled). >>It now all lines up by electron orbitals (across (s,p,d,f)) and >>by "free" positions to donate or accept electrons, depending if >>you are going left to right or right to left as you "slide" the >>bits back in below what's above them. And chemical properties >>pretty much depend on that and the mass. >Thanks John: >Especially for the photo., which looks like a hat I once owned. >And when I get done with this quantum origami, how can I use it, >productively I mean? This page is pretty has a pretty good representation: http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes06.html A coincidence that bizmuth and element 115 line up, Lazar was he reading that day? IMHO, gravity control more research needs to be done. http://www.sei.co.jp/sn/2001/08/feature_article.html "superconductors that become superconductive in liquid helium. In 1986... " http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0108005 Physics, abstract Impulse Gravity Generator Based on Charged YBa_2Cu_3O_{7-y} Superconductor with Composite Crystal Structure http://www.superconductors.org/gravity.htm Impulse Gravity Generator ? Based on Charged YBa2Cu3O7-y Superconductor with Composite Crystal Structure Courtesy: Los Alamos National Laboratory By Eugene Podkletnov and Giovanni Modanese Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:13:38 GMT Date (revised v2): Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:25:42 GMT http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-02t.html According to the JDW report, Boeing recently approached Podkletnov directly, but fell foul of Russian technology transfer controls. The GRASP briefing document cited by Jane's noted that BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin have also contacted Podkletnov "and have some activity in this area". In conclusion the briefing document said additional "classified activities in gravity modification may exist". But moreover, Podkletnov was strongly anti-military and was only wanting to provide assistance if the research was conducted out in the "white world" of open development. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm Research explored But documents obtained by Jane's Defence Weekly and seen by the BBC show that Boeing is taking Dr Podkletnov's research seriously. The hypothesis is being tested in a programme codenamed Project Grasp. Boeing is the latest in a series of high-profile institutions trying to replicate Dr Podkletnov's experiment. http://www.zae-bayern.de/ectp/abstracts/reiss1.html A possible interaction between gravity and high temperature superconductivity - by a materials property? An analogous screening of the gravity field, within present understanding of superconductivity, is not to be expected. But we have seen a slight increase of the mass of a high temperature superconductor when it was cooled to LN2 temperatures. http://arxiv.org/html/cond-mat/9812070 A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from junctions between d-wave and s-wave superconductors. http://fy.chalmers.se/~tomten/--Xjobb/Sidan4.html Thus if a Cooper pair tunnels in an uncharged Josephson junction it will momentarily charge the junction with the charge plus/minus 2e, increasing the energy by 4EC. In a single junction this is usually not a problem because with some help from Heisenberg's uncertainty law, Et>/2, the charge slips
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Odd Spot on Titan Baffles Scientists From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 02:59:45 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:50:59 -0400 Subject: Odd Spot on Titan Baffles Scientists Cassini Imaging Central Laboratory for Operations Space Science Institute, Boulder, Colo. News Release: 2005-086 May 25, 2005 Carolina Martinez (818) 354-9382 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. Lori Stiles (520) 626-4402 University of Arizona News Service, Tucson Preston Dyches (720) 974-5859 Odd Spot on Titan Baffles Scientists Saturn�s moon Titan shows an unusual bright spot that has scientists mystified. The spot, approximately the size and shape of West Virginia, is just southeast of the bright region called Xanadu and is visible to multiple instruments on the Cassini spacecraft. The 483-kilometer-wide (300-mile) region may be a "hot" spot - an area possibly warmed by a recent asteroid impact or by a mixture of water ice and ammonia from a warm interior, oozing out of an ice volcano onto colder surrounding terrain. Other possibilities for the unusual bright spot include landscape features holding clouds in place or unusual materials on the surface. "At first glance, I thought the feature looked strange, almost out of place," said Dr. Robert H. Brown, team leader of the Cassini visual and infrared mapping spectrometer and professor at the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory, University of Arizona, Tucson. "After thinking a bit, I speculated that it was a hot spot. In retrospect, that might not be the best hypothesis. But the spot is no less intriguing." The Cassini spacecraft flew by Titan on March 31 and April 16. Its visual and infrared mapping spectrometer, using the longest, reddest wavelengths that the spectrometer sees, observed the spot, the brightest area ever observed on Titan. Cassini's imaging cameras saw a bright, 550-kilometer-wide (345- mile) semi-circle at visible wavelengths at this same location on Cassini's December 2004 and February 2005 Titan flybys. "It seems clear that both instruments are detecting the same basic feature on or controlled by Titan's surface," said Dr. Alfred S. McEwen, Cassini imaging team scientist, also of the University of Arizona. "This bright patch may be due to an impact event, landslide, cryovolcanism or atmospheric processes. Its distinct color and brightness suggest that it may have formed relatively recently." Other bright spots have been seen on Titan, but all have been transient features that move or disappear within hours, and have different spectral (color) properties than this feature. This spot is persistent in both its color and location. "It's possible that the visual and infrared spectrometer is seeing a cloud that is topographically controlled by something on the surface, and that this weird, semi-circular feature is causing this cloud," said Dr. Elizabeth Turtle, Cassini imaging team associate, also from the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory. "If the spot is a cloud, then its longevity and stability imply that it is controlled by the surface. Such a cloud might result from airflow across low mountains or outgassing caused by geologic activity," said Jason Barnes, a postdoctoral researcher working with the visual and infrared mapping spectrometer team at the University of Arizona. The spot could be reflected light from a patch of terrain made up of some exotic surface material. "Titan's surface seems to be mostly dirty ice. The bright spot might be a region with different surface composition, or maybe a thin surface deposit of non-icy material," Barnes added. Scientists have also considered that the spot might be mountains. If so, they'd have to be much higher than the 100- meter-high (300-foot) hills Cassini's radar altimeter has seen so far. Scientists doubt that Titan's crust could support such high mountains. The visual and infrared mapping spectrometer team will be able to test the hot spot hypothesis on the July 2, 2006, Titan flyby, when they take nighttime images of the same area. If the spot glows at night, researchers will know it's hot. For more information about the Cassini-Huygens mission visit http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov and http://www.nasa.gov/cassini For additional images visit the visual and infrared mapping spectrometer page at: http://wwwvims.lpl.arizona.edu and the Cassini imaging team homepage http://ciclops.org The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages the mission for NASA's Science
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:27:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:53:51 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:05:09 +0100 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >Unfortunately. the "affected listers" includes everyone who >produces original research, and as such it is vital to ufology >as a whole. How would you feel, Don, if having spent two years >of research someone came along and claimed that you had nothing >to do with the results? Dear List, Perhaps we should all have someone like Joe writing for us on our side, We wouldn't have to write too much on these Lists
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Underwater UFOs & Project Identification From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:49:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:00:58 -0400 Subject: Underwater UFOs & Project Identification I attended the May, 2005, Missouri MUFON meeting in St. Charles, Missouri. Also in attendance at that meeting were Debbie Ziegelmeyer, who is a MO MUFON Field Investigator (she is also a member of the "Roswell Dig" scientific research team), and Tom Ferrario, the MO MUFON Assistant Director of Field Investigations. Deb and Tom discussed the newly initiated (by them) official MUFON Dive Team. For more info on the MUFON Dive Team, see: http://www.mufon.com At that meeting, Deb and Tom noted that fully 25% of all UFO reports involve underwater objects and lights. After they mentioned "underwater" UFOs, I publicly brought up the following: I'm a former member of both NICAP and APRO back in the early 1960s. Back in the 1960s and 1970s I used to regularly read Dr. Harley Rutledge's (Ph.D.; former head of the Physics Dept. at Southeast Missouri State University [SEMO] in Cape Girardeau, MO) monthly - and sometimes even weekly - reports in the major St. Louis newspapers about his ongoing southeast Missouri UFO field investigations. I also have a copy of his excellent book, Project Identification -- The First Scientific Field Study Of UFO Phenomena (1981; hardcover; publ. Prentice-Hall; ISBN 0-13- 730713-6). Rutledge's book deals with the 1970s' "UFO flap" that began in Piedmont, Missouri, and continued throughout southeast Missouri for the rest of the 1970s. This developed into the "UFO wave" that spread eastward through the U.S.; thus gaining national attention. Here's the first two paragraphs - in Chapter 1, "The Piedmont UFO Flap" - on page 1 of Rutledge's book. (For emphasis, Rutledge italicized the word "underwater" in the original text.): --- In late February and March 1973, strange events were being reported in the area of Piedmont, Missouri. For example, there were reports that cars had become stalled on highways when a light had flown nearby or when a light had beamed down from above. Usually, the car radio ceased to function, too. Interference with television signals was reported not only in the Piedmont area but in nearby towns as well. After the picture had become scrambled and the sound garbled, people would step outside and see a silent ball of light come floating over; sometimes the yard lights went out, too. [As if that wasn't intriguing enough; that was just the beginning! --Bob]: On one occasion, the police radio system stopped working. According to Dennis Hovis, manager of radio station KPWB, the transmitter was "knocked out" the same night. Hovis and others had seen a lighted object pass directly over the radio transmitter tower. On another occasion, a man reported that he not only lost his television signal, but that his lights dimmed and his house shook. Stepping outside, he saw an egg-shaped object hovering nearby that emitted a high-pitched sound. His dogs had to run away to hide. There were other reports of lights that made erratic turns, or went off when aircraft approached. There were even reports of flying saucers, of objects sitting on the ground in fields, and of objects moving underwater in Clearwater Lake. Clearly, "the Piedmont UFO," as Hovis termed it on his newscast, had arrived. [Then, on page 3, Rutledge mentions that... ---Bob]: A man from one amateur UFO organization claimed over radio station KPWB that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. He lent credence to the rumor that Clearwater Lake was a large UFO base by hiring divers to look for evidence. .... [In addition, Rutledge says on page 113... --Bob]: .... John and I went to the radio station where one of the announcers was in a talkative mood. ...describing mysterious bow waves he had seen on the surface of Clearwater Lake.... [And, lastly, on page 212, in Chapter 18, "Project Summary: A Final Report", Rutledge states. --Bob ]: Some persons suggest that UFOs are prevalent in southeast Missouri because they are based here! Remember the diver's search into Clearwater Lake in 1973? The Dennis Hovis told me that an airlines pilot saw three lights rise out of the man-made reservoir atop Taum Sauk Mountain near Ironton. [Note: The "man-made reservoir" - part of the AmerenUE Taum Sauk Pumped Storage Power Plant - is actually the "upper reservoir" atop 1600-foot "hollowed-out" Proffit Mountain, which is 5-1/2 miles s.w. of Taum Sauk Mountain. (At 1776-foot, Taum Sauk Mtn. is Missouri's highest point.) -- Further info below. --Bob] --- Regarding Rutledge's referencing "objects moving underwater in Clearwater Lake" (which is 9 miles west of Piedmont, MO): Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when I used to frequent online electronic bulletin boards (BBSes), I came across Fred Mueller's "Prime Time BBS." One of Prime Time BBS's subject posting areas (like today's Internet Newsgroups) was UFO- related. Not long after I posted a few public messages in that online UFO subject area on Prime Time BBS, I got an e-mail from Fred's wife, Sandy (who, with Fred, was Prime Time BBS's "co-Sysop" [system operator].) Sandy mentioned to me that back in the 1970s she had been camping with a group of folks at the public campground near the dam on Clearwater Lake. She said that one night she and the entire group she was with witnessed a UFO, with many lights on it, moving underwater near the dam! I have since lost track of Fred and Sandy Mueller. Therefore, unfortunately, I have nothing further to add to this. --- Every year or two, my wife and I have bicycled the roads and/or hiked the trails at both Taum Sauk Mtn. State Park., Proffit Mtn. and nearby Johnson's Shut-Ins State Park. They are located in the Missouri Ozarks in the ancient granite St. Francois Mtns. region, which is oldest mountain range in the U.S.. The area is very rugged, heavily wooded, isolated and extremely scenic. Atop Taum Sauk Mtn. there is a public-access (daylight hours only) fire tower. The 360-degree view from this fire tower affords an excellent view of the Proffit Mtn. upper reservoir. To get to the Taum Sauk Mtn. fire tower in Iron County: Go approx. 5 miles south on Hwy. 21 from Ironton, MO, (which is about 95 miles s. of St. Louis). Not far after "Tip Top", turn right and go approx. 3 miles on Hwy. CC, which terminates at the site. (Coordinates: Lat.: N 37-degrees, 34-minutes ; Long.: W 90-degrees, 43-minutes.) To get to the Proffit Mtn. reservoirs: Follow the above directions to Taum Sauk Mtn., but instead of turning off Hwy. 21 onto Hwy. CC, continue south past Hwy. CC for approx. another 4 miles. Then turn right (at Hogan, MO, which is a defunct town; but, is still listed on the Missouri state road map) and go about 11 miles on Hwy. AA. (Hwy. AA also intersects with Hwy. U - which goes by the East Fork of the Black River -- and connects back approx. 7- to 8-miles to Hwy. 21, about one mile east of Lesterville, MO, in Reynolds County.) There is a very interesting free flora/fauna/geology/archeology nature museum - with bathrooms/water/picnic shelter - on the way to the reservoirs. You can drive up to the upper reservoir, and then walk a short, inclined paved trail right up to it's rim. You can also drive right down to the lower reservoir power generation plant, too. (Upper reservoir coordinates: Lat.: N 37-degrees, 32-minutes ; Long.: W 90-degrees, 49-minutes.) Facts about the Proffit Mountain "Taum Sauk" reservoirs - construction of which began in 1960 and was completed in 1963.: The upper reservoir is at 1600-foot elevation. It has a water surface area of about .085 sq. mi. and covers an area of 55 acres. It holds 1.5 billion gallons of water. It's longest width (on a s.w.-n.e. axis) is 2500 feet; it's width (on a n.-s. axis) is 2000 feet. During peak-demand electricity periods, water is released from the upper reservoir and flows down a 7,000-foot- long shaft and tunnel to the power plant generators near the lower reservoir. The lower reservoir (which is a dam on the East Fork of the Black River) is at 740-foot elevation. At night (when electricity rates are cheaper), water from the lower reservoir is "pumped-back" up to the upper reservoir. For a distant view/photo of the Proffit Mtn. upper reservoir, see: http://tinyurl.com/9yc2w For an excellent 3-D Topographic map view of the reservoirs, see: http://tinyurl.com/8jplf For more info on the "Taum Sauk pumped storage plant", see: http://tinyurl.com/byxzq (Back to 'lurking' again. :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:31:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:44:46 -0400 Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:08:24 -0300 >Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide <snip> >Where confusion applied to specific cases from the documents I >could understand the need for accuracy, but the legitimacy of >the documents from TNA would not be in question, regardless of >who got them in the first place. Hi Don, List, The legitimacy of the documents were never in question - there is an outstanding issue with regard to Nick's claim to have found more recent documents than those seen by me, which might just turn out to be an error. (If so, it's no big deal, we're all human). The question as to credit for the discovery is paramount, as I pointed out, because of the implications on ufology as a whole. >But don't you think that Roberts or Clarke can argue this in >their own stead rather than you and Martin with Nick Pope. They >are the ones affected. I can't speak for Martin, but this issue affects me - I have research that I would like to share openly, but as with the Hennessey article, I want it to be watertight so that no-one can write me out of the scene afterwards. It was a full year after I made contact with Hennessey that I felt comfortable with "going public" with my research. It also took me two years to find him. If I was more relaxed about sharing information, the timescales could have been drastically different. >As for collaboration, I think it will be a frosty day in hell >before you and Nick line up on the same side. You might be surprised - I actually do have some respect for Nick. During his tenure, he did a number of things which I am actually quite impressed with - he tried to build a relationship between the MoD and ufology with some success, and I have also seen proactive internal memos from him, warning other MoD assetts of probable stimuli for new reports, such as imminent meteor showers, laser displays, and the Virgin Balloon. That was something which I have rarely (if ever) come across in the records. My main issues are with the credit for the FSWP, and the perceived inconsistencies between his presented image of the role he was undertaking. >Re retarded, are you referring to us as being mentally >challenged or retarded as in the sense of being held back? Mainly "held back", though there are some who might fit the alternative meaning.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 27 National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:18:12 -0400 Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research I think it is obvious to many that something is going on regarding the impact of certain cultures or nations on UFO research or researchers. I mean how UFO researchers think rather than the actual cases. I think it would be useful to understand what is going on here so that we may be more sensitive to these other cultures. For instance, I have seen an undercurrent of defensiveness on the part of our friends 'south of the border' (not just by reading this List but examining documents from other sources). It seems that _any_ critical assessment or opinion is taken as a vendetta or personal attack. Surely, something is going on here. I remember reading of right (or left) wing death or hit squads in Central or South American countries. There are narco-terrorists. There have been many decades of unknown levels of manipulation by international corporate entities (including other nations). The political wranglings and poverty seem to have held sway for a long time. So, is the reason for the defensiveness and hyper-sensitivity of such UFO researchers due to those reasons or is it something else which I am missing? Could it be due to some sense that the USA has dominated this hemisphere and thus other nations in this hemisphere have to work harder for recognition or credit (esp. in the UFO field)?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:54:20 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Hall >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first >>ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've >>_claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an >>article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a >>CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was >>published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. <snip> >In fact there was never any such secret CIA document written by >CIA Director Walter B. Smith in the first place. This is a >serious error of document analysis. Enthusiasts who desperately >want an all-important CIA Director to seemingly be treating UFOs >as a matter of national security have conveniently failed to >read that this one-page document was a DRAFT written by a lower >level CIA official (CIA OSI chief Chadwell) and sent to DCI >Smith in Sept 1952 for his signature and for Smith to send it >officially to the National Security Council (NSC). >But Director Smith never signed the DRAFT and never sent any >such thing off to the NSC. He quite obviously had rejected it! >Chadwell kept re-sending the document for Smith's signature and >urging him to approve OSI's heroic plan to take over the UFO >problem from the AF and set up a government-wide serious >scientific investigation of UFOs, to be directed by the >illustrious MIT - in other words every UFO researcher's dream. >However the enthusiasts refuse to be bothered with such minor >matters as reading documents in context, reading chains of >correspondence for responses and non-responses, discerning >whether "attachments" are drafts and unapproved (or subsequently >rejected by what we would call in legislative affairs a "pocket >veto", you just sit on it and don't act within a period of time >and it dies without having to make a public or even an internal >official expression of rejection). Now here comes the mind-boggling part: >Rank-and-file UFO researchers also do not want the CIA to get >any credit for a heroic role because they have already made up >their minds that the CIA can only have a villainous role in the >UFO controversy, the CIA can only be the evil agency behind the >"sinister coverup" of proof of alien visitation, and that CIA >officials were behind the despised Robertson Panel as diabolical >ETH-denying debunkers. The CIA officials were behind the UFO debunking, clearly and obvioiusly. >In fact the AF was behind the Robertson Panel and forced it on >the CIA. The CIA did not want a hasty small panel rushing to >judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific >study of UFOs preferably at MIT. In fact CIA/OSI tried to >postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical >study but got overruled by evident AF pressure on DCI Smith. The >AF had gone over the CIA's heads in the first place to the IAC >and manipulated orders for a quickie panel done as fast as >possible. Note language highlighted *** by me (Hall) >The AF tricked the CIA with ***deviously selected IFO cases*** >dressed up as the "best" UFOs. Based on this the CIA reached the >conclusion that UFOs were ET in origin in late 1952 (as Chadwell >and his deputy Ralph Clark both told me) but only until the AF >sprung its trap at the Robertson Panel. What was the motivation for this devious Air Force plot, Brad? We now know firmly that the Air Force (very strong key elements thereof) did believe UFOs were ET in origin. Are you suggesting thye deliberately deceived the CIA in this regard out of organizational jealousy? >***As the AF planned***, the supposed "best UFO" cases blew up into >IFO's at the Robertson Panel, which never got the set of best >cases that Ruppelt kept in a special file collection. The CIA >was humiliated and never suspected it was an AF trick. The CIA >was thus manipulated by the AF into drawing the conclusion that >UFOs must just be IFO's, nothing more, and ought to be >vigorously debunked. But the UFO community does not want to read >the released CIA documents and see this is the case - the CIA >can only be the root of all UFO evil in the UFO community's >party line view of UFO history. Where is the slightest documentary evidence for this extreme revisionist history? Where is Ruppelt's secret file of best cases? (Elsewhere you have criticized Ruppelt for allegedly being devious and manipulating the truth.) Why would the AF want UFOs debunked? Brad, you simply have to stop putting out this sort of extreme viewpoint without providing reasonable
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:25:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:59:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:26:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal > >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:42:32 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:19:01 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:30 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal <snip> >This page is pretty has a pretty good representation: >http://home.att.net/~lfretzin/notes06.html >A coincidence that bizmuth and element 115 line up, Lazar was he >reading that day? >IMHO, gravity control more research needs to be done. >http://www.sei.co.jp/sn/2001/08/feature_article.html >"superconductors that become superconductive in liquid helium. >In 1986... " >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0108005 >Physics, abstract > >Impulse Gravity Generator Based on Charged YBa_2Cu_3O_{7-y} >Superconductor with Composite Crystal Structure > >http://www.superconductors.org/gravity.htm > >Impulse Gravity Generator ? > >Based on Charged YBa2Cu3O7-y Superconductor >with Composite Crystal Structure > >Courtesy: >Los Alamos National Laboratory > >By Eugene Podkletnov and Giovanni Modanese >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:13:38 GMT >Date (revised v2): Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:25:42 GMT >http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-02t.html >According to the JDW report, Boeing recently approached >Podkletnov directly, but fell foul of Russian technology >transfer controls. The GRASP briefing document cited by Jane's >noted that BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin have also contacted >Podkletnov "and have some activity in this area". >In conclusion the briefing document said additional "classified >activities in gravity modification may exist". But moreover, >Podkletnov was strongly anti-military and was only wanting to >provide assistance if the research was conducted out in the >"white world" of open development. >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm >Research explored >But documents obtained by Jane's Defence Weekly and seen by the >BBC show that Boeing is taking Dr Podkletnov's research >seriously. >The hypothesis is being tested in a programme codenamed Project >Grasp. >Boeing is the latest in a series of high-profile institutions >trying to replicate Dr Podkletnov's experiment. >http://www.zae-bayern.de/ectp/abstracts/reiss1.html >A possible interaction between gravity and high temperature >superconductivity - by a materials property? >An analogous screening of the gravity field, within present >understanding of superconductivity, is not to be expected. But >we have seen a slight increase of the mass of a high temperature >superconductor when it was cooled to LN2 temperatures. >http://arxiv.org/html/cond-mat/9812070 >A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational >radiation from junctions between d-wave and s-wave >superconductors. >http://fy.chalmers.se/~tomten/--Xjobb/Sidan4.html >Thus if a Cooper pair tunnels in an uncharged Josephson junction >it will momentarily charge the junction with the charge >plus/minus 2e, increasing the energy by 4EC. In a single >junction this is usually not a problem because with some help >from Heisenberg's uncertainty law, Et>/2, the charge slips >quickly away from the junction, discharging it before the energy >conservation law notices. But if there is any obstacle close >after the junction, for example another junction or a resistor, >the junction might stay charged long enough for the energy law >to catch up. John:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:57:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:02:37 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >I welcome enlightenment. _Do_ you! My warm and fuzzy index remains nonplussed, but that may be just me. I still perceive a sneer wrapped in a smirk and camouflaging a snicker. I further suspect enlightenment is not on your program. Perhaps if you had begun differently... it may be too late now.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:07:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:06:06 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:25:13 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:06:54 -0300 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? ><snip> >>I can't force them to look at the evidence. Obviously if aliens >>are visiting, there is not much need for the Silly Effort To >>Investigate. >I agree, Stan. It is really pretty silly to think that alien >life forms would still be using radio. It's about like the >Native Americans of the plains watching for smoke signals to >prove their were Europeans. >On the other hand, I have looked at the evidence, and I am not >yet convinced that there is an extraterrestrial component to the >UFO phenomenon. There are many other possibilities that we >(UFOlogy) are ignoring. In our own way we are just as blind as >the SETI folks if we insist on pounding the square peg of UFO >phenomena into the round hole of ET. >I think we need to step back, take a deep breath, and look at >the phenomena without prejudices of any sort. Bob, Remember the question is not what are UFOs or are all UFOs of ET origin. The question is "are any?". Sure most UFOs are all sorts of IFOs. I don't care about them. But manufacturered high performance apparently metallic craft able to zoom up up and away sound like they weren't made here.Mother ships like in the Yukon case that are 0.6-1.2 miles long surely sound like they weren't made here. What are these other explanations? If they had been of earthly origin, they would have shown up in Vietnam or Korea.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: Underwater UFOs & Project Identification - From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:14:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:12:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Underwater UFOs & Project Identification - >From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:49:10 -0500 >Subject: Underwater UFOs & Project Identification <snip> >Back in the 1960s and 1970s I used to regularly read Dr. >Harley Rutledge's (Ph.D.; former head of the Physics Dept. at >Southeast Missouri State University [SEMO] in Cape Girardeau, >Project Identification -- The First Scientific Field Study Of UFO >Phenomena (1981; hardcover; publ. Prentice-Hall; ISBN 0-13- >730713-6). >Here's the first two paragraphs - in Chapter 1, "The Piedmont >UFO Flap" - on page 1 of Rutledge's book. (For emphasis, >Rutledge italicized the word "underwater" in the original >text.): >In late February and March 1973, strange events were being >reported in the area of Piedmont, Missouri. For example, there <snip> >There were even reports of flying saucers, of objects sitting on >the ground in fields, and of objects moving underwater in >Clearwater Lake. Clearly, "the Piedmont UFO," as Hovis termed it >on his newscast, had arrived. Thanks Bob for the interesting Dr Rutledge stories from his book and related Taum Sauk Mtn, MO hydroelectric power site map. I've been there several times and it is a really interesting region in Missouri to say the least. Doesn't that Proffit Mtn photo looks like a squashed Devil's Tower mountain from CE of 3rd Kind movie? Makes a nice UFO landing spot to me from the air and to hide in a small lake no less. For those interested there are some other really nice recreational areas to visit nearby as well. Elephant Rocks State Park and Johnson Shut Ins State Park are in close vicinity of Taum Sauk Mtn. Plus great summer float trips on spring fed rivers are very nice to take on Current and Jacks Fork Rivers near Round Spring and Eminence, MO about 40 mi. SW of Taum Sauk Mtn. This area is still quite active. I did a followup investigation of UFO reports around Clearwater Lake 5 mi west of Piedmont, MO. I spoke to a family from Ellsinore, MO just 18 mi south of Piedmont in March 2004. They mentioned about a relative encountering a USO one time while fishing on Clearwater Lake. It even rose up and took off skyward but the date was unknown. They also submitted UFO reports to NUFORC seen over Ellsinore, Greenville and Van Buren in the vicinity of Piedmont in late 2003. (see ufocenter.com for MO reports in Nov. and Dec. 2003). Just a side note I did a followup investigative report via Peter Davenport of NUFORC about a wild sighting of a skinny looking strange being with outward bent knees and legs that chased 2 men in a pickup on night seen near Chaffee, MO on Dec. 9, 2003. I eventually coordinated this sighting with the late Kenny Young who had investigated a similar strange being report in SE Indiana. See story at: http://home.fuse.net/ufo/indianafigure04.html Kenny even put together a cable TV show story with my interview
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:16:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:16:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Myers >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31:47 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >Dear international colleagues: >Here is the translation into English of the Brazilian Ufology >Manifesto, officially presented to the Commander of the Air >Force, the Minister of Defense and to the President of Brazil, >on May 20th. A.J., Have you seen this: http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=914&category=Environment I found this story posted on C2C. Your group is not credited nor is anything attributed to them for the work you've done. Hope all is well.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 UFO Sightings Sparked MoD Probe From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:24:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:24:42 -0400 Subject: UFO Sightings Sparked MoD Probe Source: The Western Mail - Wales, UK http://tinyurl.com/a26x6 May 28 2005 UFO Sightings Sparked MoD Probe Sam Burson Western Mail A spate of UFO sightings in Wales prompted a secret Ministry of Defence investigation, newly-released information has revealed. The clamour around the possibility of "little green men" visiting Pembrokeshire forced Government officials to look into the situation in the late 1970s. There were numerous tabloid reports, including one of an entire class of schoolchildren claiming to have seen a UFO landing. Many others reported being petrified by a strange silver alien. It all happened in what became known as the Broad Haven Triangle. Canny tourist operators even started running UFO sighting weekends. But new documents show despite publicly dismissing the reports as hoaxes, defence experts were racing to get answers. In a letter from May 1977, MoD minister Dr John Gilbert MP tells officials in the department, "I am being inundated at the present time with representations about UFOs said to have been seen in Pembrokeshire." He asks whether any investigations are being carried out. A reply tells the minister, "We look into detailed reports of unexplained phenomena to see if they have a bearing on the national defences." But they reassured we were not in danger of alien takeover, saying, "My department has carried out that type of investigation on the reports received from Wales, but these have been few in recent months. "No evidence has been revealed to suggest that the alleged sightings in Wales, or indeed those reported from other parts of Great Britain in the past, contained anything of significance from a defence point of view. "All I can tell you on the basis of the department's past experience, is that most reports of this nature can usually be referred to a commonplace object, which may have been observed perhaps from an unusual angle or in somewhat unusual weather or lighting conditions." However, unbeknown to the minister, the RAF in West Wales was asked to carry out a "discreet" investigation. An extract of a private memorandum to the Provost and Security Service of the RAF, (effectively the military police), reads, "I should be grateful if you would have a look at these papers and let me know whether you think some sort of discreet inquiry would be worthwhile. "What I would really like to know is the volume of local interest and/or alarm, and whether there is a readily discernible rational explanation for it (perhaps a practical joker), or even whether there is prima facie evidence for a more serious specialist enquiry. "But I have not committed you in any way, and I have not even told the minister I am consulting you." The report called for has yet to be released. Sheffield University's folklore lecturer Dr David Clarke, who uncovered the other documents under the Freedom of Information Act, is now trying to track it down. Dr Clarke, who is researching a book called Saucer Full of Secrets about the folklore of UFO sightings, said, "I was really surprised to find this. "Generally the MoD dismisses these things and doesn't take them too seriously. "But to find they ordered an investigation behind the Minster's back is pretty interesting. "It's not quite the X-Files, but it is along the same lines." Dr Clarke is now trying to get hold of people who were featured in what he sees as the tall tales of nearly 30 years ago. "What I'd really like is to speak to some of the kids who apparently saw the alien craft." A newspaper at the time reported Broad Haven Primary School headmaster Ralph Llewellyn backing the claims of his pupils, 14 of whom had drawn similar pictures of the craft. "What would be fantastic is to meet whoever it was wearing the alien suit," added Dr Clarke. "As far as I've been able to work out it was someone living locally, who'd got hold of a chemical suit, having a great time terrifying people." UFO 'hysteria' In 1977 the talk of Pembrokeshire was all about UFOs. Among dozens of alleged sightings, Billy and Pauline Coombes, living at a remote farmhouse near Broad Haven, were apparently terrified to see a 7ft giant in a silver suit outside their front room window at 1am. Josephine Hewison, meanwhile, was reported to have seen a 50ft craft the shape of an upturned jelly mould parked outside her greenhouse. As well as pranksters, and talk of strange goings-on at local military bases, folklore expert Dr David Clarke thinks films fuel the hysteria. "Close Encounters of the Third Kind and Star Wars had just come out, so the idea of space was very much at the front of people's minds, which is fascinating in itself." Anyone with stories or recollections from the time wanting to help David's research can get in touch on 07906 377 988. The West Wales Star Wars connection UFO fever in Pembrokeshire reached its zenith in the winter of 1979. Stories leaked about a strange saucer being housed in a Pembroke Dock warehouse. It turned out to be a life-sized copy of the Millennium Falcon, which was being created for the Star Wars sequel The Empire Strikes Back, pictured above. About 30 people working on the project had been sworn to secrecy by producer George Lucas, and had to refer to it by its code- name Magic Roundabout. Marcon Fabrications, which normally worked with nearby petrochemical industry, were charged with building Han Solo's famous starship.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 28 Linda Howe Again Promotes A UFO Hoaxer From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:00:21 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:30:29 -0400 Subject: Linda Howe Again Promotes A UFO Hoaxer It is absolutely amazing! Linda Howe again promotes a UFO hoaxer who wants to benefit from someone else's hard work... All Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira and his partner did was take photos and films and make sure that they would appear in photos and films made by the members of the Committee and the press, in a incredible effort to have their faces on the program Fantastico for an interview, an interview in which Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira refers to Linda Moulton Howe. The Fantastico program is the very same which, a few years ago, exposed Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira's hoaxes and his prison under the accusation of having sold 6,000 pieces of land that did not belong to him. Linda Moulton Howe presented Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira to her readers as if he was some kind of spokesman of the campaign promoted by the Brazilian UFO researchers, and as if he had played some role in helping the Brazilian UFO researchers to achieve this historical event. Instead of helping in any way, Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira only criticized the campaign in the previous months before it reached its goal of gaining the cooperation of the Brazilian military. Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira helped with absolutely nothing. And Linda Moulton Howe presents him as a person who played an important role in the process. This is a shame and is insulting to those actually responsible for the success of this very important campaign. I think that I don't have to remind the members of the international UFO community that a few years ago Linda Moulton Howe visited Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira's farm in Brazil after Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira's paid for Linda Moulton Howe's trip. She was delighted to listen to his fantasy tales of abductions and contacts with aliens. Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira's claims are largely known delusions or hoaxes. She listened to no Brazilian UFO researchers, she spoke with no members of the press or Brazilian UFO community, she did not contact any of a number of people who could describe to her how Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira fakes UFO sightings. Instead, Linda Moulton Howe promoted Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira's absurd tales in the USA, especially the hoax in which he was supposedly abducted by aliens and tried to convince people of his story with some burned bed sheets and small burns to the ceiling of a room, through which he was allegedly taken to a mothership and encountered 39 aliens races, including Jesus Christ. That hoax is well known to the entire Brazilian UFO Community, which completely reject his UFO-sect Projeto Portal (Gateway Project), created during the same time the Heaven=B4s Gate was created outside San Diego. As the head of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), the group who initiated this campaign for the freedom of information, in the name of all the other members of such Committee and being the person who was contacted by the Brazilian military and invited by them for this very important meeting in Brasilia, I cannot stand for anymore of Linda Moulton Howe's unreliable journalism and will not allow it or any other half truths or omissions to destroy or discredit this critical freedom of information campaign. The truth must prevail here at this very important and historical UFO cooperative effort. The international UFO community must move forward and we all must realize that there is no more room for lies, distortions, and opportunists who do nothing and criticize the ones who do. A. J. Gevaerd, Editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine Head, Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU) www.ufo.com.br -------- Hit: http://tinyurl.com/dedwg and click over ASSISTA VIDEO to watch the Fantastico program.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Free NASA Satellite Images Of The World From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:43:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:51:15 -0400 Subject: Free NASA Satellite Images Of The World Hi - The quote, below, is from one of my colleagues who is quite happy with the level of detail for satellite images of his area. If such images might help in UFO investigations, here's what he recommends: "I got the image from NASA's World Wind 1.3. It's free. It's best if you have a high speed connection to the internet. It is a large download over 100 MB you can get it here: http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/ "As NASA puts it: World Wind lets you zoom from satellite altitude into any place on Earth. Leveraging Landsat satellite imagery and Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data, World Wind
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:02:04 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:42:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto - Gevaerd >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:16:16 -0700 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufo.freedom.nul> >>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31:47 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Ufology Manifesto >>Dear international colleagues: >>Here is the translation into English of the Brazilian Ufology >>Manifesto, officially presented to the Commander of the Air >>Force, the Minister of Defense and to the President of Brazil, >>on May 20th. >A.J., >Have you seen this: >http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=914&category=Environment >I found this story posted on C2C. >Your group is not credited nor is anything attributed to them >for the work you've done. Hope all is well. Thanks for letting me know about it, Royce. It is amazing what LMH has done again! I have already taken measures to assure that Linda Moulton Howe's bad journalism and promotion of a known hoaxer are fixed through a public protest signed by me in the name of all the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers. As to her bad note being published on Art Bell and George Noory's C2C website, I don't understand why these two gentleman would do so in such a way that would endorse LMH's action?! I am confused about such behavior. I believe that the entire World UFO Community knows very well who has done the work for this moment in Brazilian Ufology - the release of the secret UFO files. I am confident that lots of colleagues in the USA will try to reach Bell and Noory, and let them know the truth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: Linda Howe Again Promotes A UFO Hoaxer - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:47:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:57:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Linda Howe Again Promotes A UFO Hoaxer - Hatch >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:00:21 -0300 >Subject: Linda Howe Again Promotes A UFO Hoaxer >It is absolutely amazing! >Linda Howe again promotes a UFO hoaxer who wants to benefit from someone else's hard work... >All Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira and his partner did was take >photos and films and make sure that they would appear in photos >and films made by the members of the Committee and the press, in >a incredible effort to have their faces on the program >Fantastico <snip> "Fantastico" indeed. Hello AJ: Congratulations for your work on Brazilian military disclosure! LMH has lost all credibility with regard to my studies: http://www.larryhatch.net The commercial nature of her studies should be noted as archtypical. As for Urandir, with his $100 mud plates etc., I cannot place him on the same pedestal as perhaps Billy Meier or even a George Adamski. Billy and George fooled some important people after all. I waste no time with any of these comedians, I'm going on 60 years of age. I would never write a rebuttal as long as yours, there just isn't enough time. If some fool wants to listen to LMH, or buy cow-pies from Urandir, I only ask that they use their own personal funds. There is a hidden justice to this, I suspect, a sort of Darwinian moron tax.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 'Prophet Yaweh' Video From: Paul Frehley <slh.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:51:54 +0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:59:09 -0400 Subject: 'Prophet Yaweh' Video Can anyone provide an explanation for this guy's video which is featured on the Coast to Coast website? It looks like a weather balloon - except that it was allegedly "summoned". And apparently, it is repeatable. Check out the video here: mms://wm-ondemand.abacast.com/prophet_yahweh/ABCnews1.wmv
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:25:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:01:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:25:35 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:26:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal ><snip> >>http://www.superconductors.org/gravity.htm >>Impulse Gravity Generator ? >>Based on Charged YBa2Cu3O7-y Superconductor >>with Composite Crystal Structure >>Courtesy: >>Los Alamos National Laboratory >>By Eugene Podkletnov and Giovanni Modanese >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:13:38 GMT >>Date (revised v2): Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:25:42 GMT >><snip> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm >John: >Isn't this what Silas Newton was talking about regarding the >Aztec crash and retrieval? Rich: I did some checking, are you building some type of connecting point of Dr Podkletnov's Spinning, super-conducting ceramic ring and the below mentioned unfamiliar type gear ratio? http://www.aztecufo.com/crash.htm "The disk apparently incorporated large rings of metal which revolved around a central, stabilized cabin, using an unfamiliar gear ratio." Here's the part that gets me <G>. "disk that landed near Aztec was 99.99 feet in diameter" Now Rich I sat here and figured this out so not to skip over the details, this should put a few things into perspective if you had to measure something 99.99 feet across. (100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = 3.04800 millimeters (100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = [(1/100) inch = 0.254 millimeters] 0.254 millimeters * 12 units per 1/100 inch = 3.04800 millimeters Lets put this into perspective, imagine you have a measuring tape that is 100 feet long and you have to be within 1/100 inch of your total 100 feet. We know how small an eighth of an inch is on a ruler right ?, now imagine that eighth divided 12 times, this is how small it is to be to see 1/100 inch. 1/8 (0.125) / 12 = 0.0104167 inch 99.99 feet + 0.0104167 inch = 100.00042 feet I did not see anything mentioned about materials which exhibit strange electrical properties in this article however, the effect superconductors appear to have taken upon gravity is interesting, very interesting. I made a similar comment about it, regarding their manufacture
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:33:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:44:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 10:25 AM >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:25:35 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:26:48 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Element 115 Massive Stars & Heavy Metal >><snip> >http://www.aztecufo.com/crash.htm >"The disk apparently incorporated large rings of metal which revolved around a central, >stabilized cabin, using an unfamiliar gear ratio." >Here's the part that gets me <G>. >"disk that landed near Aztec was 99.99 feet in diameter" >Now Rich I sat here and figured this out so not to skip over the >details, this should put a few things into perspective if you had to >measure something 99.99 feet across. >(100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = 3.04800 millimeters >(100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = [(1/100) inch = 0.254 millimeters] >0.254 millimeters * 12 units per 1/100 inch = 3.04800 millimeters Then again Rich, looks like I lost a conversion somewhere <G> (100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = 3.04800 millimeters (100.00 feet) - (99.99 feet) = [(1/100) feet * 12 inches/ft) = 0.120 inches] So that we can measure out to 0.120 inches of .99 foot, our tape measure will need 100 units 10x10 of 1/100 each. 0.100, 0.120, 0.130, etc... Which brings up another point, what about the accuracy of the intended measuring tool? was this tool used where demands for precision are required, yet were talking about 100 feet somewhere on the terrain. In any case, not a strong candidate for likely story at least on the measurement end of things, when exposed to the outside elements results in a very misleading accuracy. Tools of that time unlike lasers today would have been quite a bit difficult to calibrate I suspect, my own laser measuring stick is good for about what, maybe down to 1/100 to 1/8 inch. ><snip> >I did not see anything mentioned about materials which exhibit >strange electrical properties in this article however, the effect >superconductors appear to have taken upon gravity is interesting, >very interesting.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:58:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:48:11 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Maccabee >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT >Subject: Re: British National Archives <snip> >The AF tricked the CIA with deviously selected IFO cases dressed >up as the "best" UFOs. Based on this the CIA reached the >conclusion that UFOs were ET in origin in late 1952 (as Chadwell >and his deputy Ralph Clark both told me) but only until the AF >sprung its trap at the Robertson Panel. >As the AF planned, the supposed "best UFO" cases blew up into I>FO's at the Robertson Panel, which never got the set of best >cases that Ruppelt kept in a special file collection. The CIA >was humiliated and never suspected it was an AF trick. The CIA >was thus manipulated by the AF into drawing the conclusion that >UFOs must just be IFO's, nothing more, and ought to be >vigorously debunked. But the UFO community does not want to read t>he released CIA documents and see this is the case - the CIA >can only be the root of all UFO evil in the UFO community's >party line view of UFO history. The "dupilicity"of the Air Force is evidenced in the following memorandum and discussion (abstracted from from THE UFO-FBI CONNECTION) ----- A document entitled "The Air Force Stand on Flying Saucers - as stated by CIA, in a briefing on 22 August 1952" contains the following information based on the CIA visit to ATIC: I. The Air Force has primary responsibility for investigating the flying saucers. The unit concerned with these investigations is a part of the AIr Technical Intelligence Center at Dayton, Ohio, and consists of three officers (a Captain in charge) and two civilians. They receive reports of sightings, analyze and attempt to explain them. A standard reporting form has been prepared which is used on a world-wide basis. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations checks into each sighting attempting to determine its authenticity and the reliability of the observer. II. (A) The Air Force officially denies that flying saucers are: (1)U.S. secret weapons (2) Soviet secret weapons (3) Extra-terrestrial visitors II.(B) It is believed that all sightings of flying saucers are: (1)Well known objects such as balloons, aircraft, meteors, clouds, etc. not recognized by the observer (2) Phenomena of the atmosphere which are at present poorly understood, e.g., refractions and reflections caused by temperature inversion, ionization phenomena, ball lightning, etc. III. Not a shred of evidence exists to substantiate the belief that flying saucers are material objects not falling into category II B(1), above. IV. A study of flying saucer sightings on a geographical basis showed them to be more frequent in the vicinity of atomic energy installations (which is explained by the greater security consciousness of persons in those areas). That by-products of atomic fission may in some way act catalytically to produce flying saucers has not been disproved. The greatest number of sightings has been made at or near Dayton, Ohio, where the investigations are going on. V. Of the thousands of flying saucers sighted of which there are records, the Air Force says that 78% have been explained by either II B(1) or II B(2) above, 2% have been exposed as hoaxes and the remaining 20% have not been explained, primarily because of the vague descriptions given by observers. VI. The Air Force is mostly interested in the saucer problem because of its psychological warfare implications. In reviewing publications designed for Soviet consumption, there has not been a single reference to flying saucers. On the other hand, several saucer societies in the United States have been investigated. Key members of some of these societies which have been instrumental in keeping the flying saucer craze before the public have been exposed as being of doubtful loyalty. Furthermore the societies , in some cases, are financed by an unknown source. The Air Force realizes that a public made jumpy by the flying saucer scare would be a serious liability in the event of air attacks by an enemy. Air defense could not operate effectively if the Air Force were constantly called upon to intercept mirages which persons had mistaken for enemy aircraft." Evidently the opinion of the saucer craze as expressed by the Project Blue Book staff to the CIA study group was considerably different from the opinion expressed by Air Force Intelligence personnel in the Pentagon to the AFOSI and to the FBI. The AFI personnel admitted to the FBI that there was a hard core amounting to about 3% of the sightings, such as many reported by commercial and Air Force pilots, which could not be explained and this led some top level officials to believe that saucers could be interplanetary vehicles. Because the Project Blue Book personnel were very skeptical, even cynical, about UFO sightings, they did not tell the CIA study group about the hard core . Instead the CIA representatives were told that "...20 % have not been explained, primarily because of the vague descriptions.." This was misinformation provided (perhaps intentionally) to the CIA by the Blue Book personnel. The fact is that the hard core 3% of the total number of sightings (15% of the unexplained sightings) had well reported, explicitly described details which prevented identification as known phenomena. Instead of being told that saucers were most often reported in the vicinity of airports, as Commander Boyd had correctly told the FBI, the CIA was told, incorrectly, that saucers were most frequently seen near Dayton, Ohio. The Blue Book personnel did not tell the CIA representative that whenever a pursuing jet tried to get close to a saucer it invariably would fade from view, nor did they tell the CIA that the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) was not being overlooked. Instead, as the CIA perceived it, the Air Force had officially taken a rigid stand against the ETH: Anything But ET . Why would the Blue Book personnel do such a thing? We know from the FBI documents that the Top Brass at the Pentagon did not flatly deny that flying saucers could be ET visitors. We also know that there was a considerable amount of highly credible testimonial evidence available to the ATIC personnel to show that saucers could not be explained as II (B) above. We also know that the hard core unexplained cases did not have vague descriptions which prevented identification. In fact, the Battelle Memorial Institute study was finding the opposite: the unexplained cases had lots of details that prevented identification as mundane objects. Furthermore, Battelle discovered that, on a statistical basis, the better sighting, with more details and more credible observers, the more difficult it was to explain. (A year or so later the Battelle study would discover that nearly 33% of the best sightings by military witnesses were not explainable!) So, the question is, why did Project Blue Book misinform the CIA? Was it because the Blue Book staff really believed there
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 15:02:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:49:19 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:57:49 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research ><snip> >>I welcome enlightenment. >_Do_ you! My warm and fuzzy index remains nonplussed, but that >may be just me. I still perceive a sneer wrapped in a smirk and >camouflaging a snicker. I further suspect enlightenment is not >on your program. Perhaps if you had begun differently... it may >be too late now. > Hi, Alfred, Yeah, I read and reread this post as well. Either it's extremely naive or extremely insulting. No matter. In either case it goes to the heart of his credibility as a researcher. I don't think
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:50:32 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >I think it is obvious to many that something is going on >regarding the impact of certain cultures or nations on UFO >research or researchers. I mean how UFO researchers think rather >than the actual cases. >I think it would be useful to understand what is going on here >so that we may be more sensitive to these other cultures. >For instance, I have seen an undercurrent of defensiveness on >the part of our friends 'south of the border' (not just by >reading this List but examining documents from other sources). >It seems that _any_ critical assessment or opinion is taken as a >vendetta or personal attack. Surely, something is going on here. <snip> >Could it be due to some sense that the USA has dominated this >hemisphere and thus other nations in this hemisphere have to >work harder for recognition or credit (esp. in the UFO field)? >This would seem odd to me but it is possible. >Or is it just the idiosyncratic behavior of individuals? >I welcome enlightenment. Certainly there are differences in attitudes to UFO reports caused by cultural differences. For instance, the differences between ufology in the UK and in North America have often been remarked on. However, so far as Central and South America are concerned, those ufologists from the English-speaking world who can't read Spanish tend to get a distorted impression. There are a few ufologists in Latin America who have a great deal to say about UFOs and tell many amazing and incredible stories in fluent English as well as Spanish - and most of us know only too well who they are. Anyone who looks at some of the more sober Latin American UFO web sites will see that there are a number of people who submit UFO reports to critical examination, and who expose the various UFO scams and hoaxes. In short, if you want a to achieve a balanced picture of 'south of the border' ufology, you need to try to read Spanish, rather than relying on translations, as some of the best material never
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Magonia Supplement No. 56 From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:54:18 -0400 Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 Magonia Supplement No. 56 has now been published. The main item is an article about the Betty and Barney Hill case, by Nigel Watson.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:55:58 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Sparks >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:09 +0000 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT >>Subject: Re: British National Archives >>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first >>>ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've >>>_claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an >>>article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a >>>CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was >>>published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. <snip> >>In fact there was never any such secret CIA document written by >>CIA Director Walter B. Smith in the first place. This is a >>serious error of document analysis. Enthusiasts who desperately >>want an all-important CIA Director to seemingly be treating UFOs >>as a matter of national security have conveniently failed to >>read that this one-page document was a DRAFT written by a lower >>level CIA official (CIA OSI chief Chadwell) and sent to DCI >>Smith in Sept 1952 for his signature and for Smith to send it >>officially to the National Security Council (NSC). >>But Director Smith never signed the DRAFT and never sent any >>such thing off to the NSC. He quite obviously had rejected it! >>Chadwell kept re-sending the document for Smith's signature and >>urging him to approve OSI's heroic plan to take over the UFO >>problem from the AF and set up a government-wide serious >>scientific investigation of UFOs, to be directed by the >>illustrious MIT - in other words every UFO researcher's dream. >>However the enthusiasts refuse to be bothered with such minor >>matters as reading documents in context, reading chains of >>correspondence for responses and non-responses, discerning >>whether "attachments" are drafts and unapproved (or subsequently >>rejected by what we would call in legislative affairs a "pocket >>veto", you just sit on it and don't act within a period of time >>and it dies without having to make a public or even an internal >>official expression of rejection). What? No comment on the above? It's taken straight from the CIA UFO documents of 1952. If you don't dispute the above then you must agree that the CIA's OSI had a "heroic plan to take over the UFO problem from the AF and set up a government-wide serious scientific investigation of UFOs, to be directed by the illustrious MIT - in other words every UFO researcher's dream." This is taken straight out of Chadwell's memos to the Director of CIA Smith, so you really cannot dispute this and if you cannot dispute this then how can you really reject the rest of my argument since it's a natural consequence of the preceding, it all flows from these premises? It's all taken straight from the CIA UFO documents of 1952, publicly released and available on the Internet (except one key coverup document the CIA quietly removed from its website). >Now here comes the mind-boggling part: So you don't dispute the preceding, only the following. But you cannot separate the two parts. If CIA OSI had a heroic plan to take over the AF's UFO project with a government-wide CIA- controlled scientific study of UFO's put in the hands of top scientists at MIT, then the rest must follow, sorry. >>Rank-and-file UFO researchers also do not want the CIA to get >>any credit for a heroic role because they have already made up >>their minds that the CIA can only have a villainous role in the >>UFO controversy, the CIA can only be the evil agency behind the >>"sinister coverup" of proof of alien visitation, and that CIA >>officials were behind the despised Robertson Panel as diabolical >>ETH-denying debunkers. >The CIA officials were behind the UFO debunking, clearly and >obvioiusly. Well Dick can you quote any CIA officials advocating the debunking of UFO's in 1952 _prior_ to the Robertson Panel? Not just negative or skeptical views, not just quoting AF officials advocating the debunking (that's where the CIA got the idea in the first place). But CIA officials in 1952 advocating a program of debunking UFO's, find me a quote. If you were at a Robertson Panel and you were told these were the "best UFO" cases the AF had and you found out they blew up into pathetic IFO's, you'd be all for debunking UFO's too. Unless of course you found out the AF was deceiving you and substituting IFO cases for UFO's, and holding back a special file of best UFO Unknowns. Knowing what you know now in 2005 of course you'd be able to figure out it was all a dirty trick. But if you were a 1952 intelligence official and had no suspicion and/or had no idea such a blatant trick could be successfully pulled off, how would you ever know? You would have to personally plow through 4,000 UFO cases in the AF files and read each and every one to see if something was possibly being held back, and even then you could never know for sure that you had _all_ of the files especially if you were snowed under with 4,000 files. The CIA never got any such collection of 4,000 Air Force UFO case files, and never got weeks and weeks to go over them even if they had insisted. How long would it take you Dick to read through those 4,000 case files? You've got them on microfilm and it is at least 20,000 pages. At one page a minute, eight hours a day, it would take 42 days to read it all, and you would have to be dedicated to doing nothing but that 7 days a week, including Saturdays and Sundays 8 hours a day. Between the date the Robertson Panel was ordered on Dec 4, 1952, till it convened on Jan 14, 1953, was only 40 days. And I don't believe anyone would give up Christmas and New Year's for such an onerous job, and not 6 weekends in a row either. Did CIA have someone stationed at Project Blue Book in Dayton during those 40 days to read through every page?? No, of course not, the CIA relied on the AF to select the "best UFO" cases. I'm just reporting what is in already publicly released CIA UFO documents, but _all_ of them, not just a selection, _all_ of the CIA documents, including one the CIA quietly pulled off its FOIA reading room website. >>In fact the AF was behind the Robertson Panel and forced it on >>the CIA. The CIA did not want a hasty small panel rushing to >>judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific >>study of UFOs preferably at MIT. In fact CIA/OSI tried to >>postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical >>study but got overruled by evident AF pressure on DCI Smith. The >>AF had gone over the CIA's heads in the first place to the IAC >>and manipulated orders for a quickie panel done as fast as >>possible. Again, no comment on the above? It's taken straight from the CIA UFO documents of 1952. If you don't dispute the above then you cannot dispute the rest. So I take it Dick that you do not dispute the facts taken straight out of the CIA documents that: (a) CIA OSI did not want a hasty small panel rushing to judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific study of UFO's preferably at MIT; (b) CIA/OSI tried to postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical study (of the full 4,000 AF UFO cases that CIA did not have copies of and could not possibly have read in the short time forced on it) but OSI's postponement got overruled, and they were forced back onto the fast-track schedule for the Robertson Panel. >Note language highlighted *** by me (Hall) >>The AF tricked the CIA with ***deviously selected IFO cases*** >>dressed up as the "best" UFOs. Based on this the CIA reached the >>conclusion that UFOs were ET in origin in late 1952 (as Chadwell >>and his deputy Ralph Clark both told me) but only until the AF >>sprung its trap at the Robertson Panel. >What was the motivation for this devious Air Force plot, Brad? >We now know firmly that the Air Force (very strong key elements >thereof) did believe UFOs were ET in origin. Are you suggesting >thye deliberately deceived the CIA in this regard out of >organizational jealousy? Oh so you're telling me Dick that the fact (it's an indisputable fact on the record as I've repeatedly pointed out) that the CIA tried to take over an Air Force intelligence program (the one on UFO's) by trying to go over the AF's head to the National Security Council (NSC) that didn't piss off the AF to the max and make the AF, the single largest and most powerful agency of the US Government in 1952, to swear out a vendetta against the tiny pipsqueak upstart CIA?? It's also an indisputable fact, on the public record, that CIA associated its UFO researchers' dream plan for an ongoing permanent scientific study of UFO's with those that the paranoid McCarthyite AF Strategic Air Command (SAC) partisans deemed to be guilty of "TREASON" and that the CIA did not realize this until it was too late that it had touched a raw nerve with the AF. Obviously that pissed off the AF even more than the blatant CIA power grab in trying to take over an Air Intelligence mission (UFO's). This too is in the public record of CIA and other government documents which no one bothers to read. You do not need my 1979 in-person interview of Fournet's boss in AF Intelligence, Col. Weldon H. Smith, former Chief, Current Intelligence Branch, Topical Intelligence Division, Deputy Directorate for Estimates, (AFOIN-2A2), raging in anger even after almost a quarter century that the CIA had tried to intrude into the AF's jurisdiction over UFO's as a strictly Air Intelligence matter. This is already something that can be deduced from the public records -- if you look hard enough and read enough documents (I've read 100,000's of pages in the course of my research) and do enough oral history interviews of key participants (I've done about 100 CIA Directors, Deputy Directors, Asst. Directors, AFOIN officers, NSA, and many others). However I do not intend to spend time here giving out _all_ of my years of hard work, my proprietary research work product amounting to 3,000+ pages in very crude rough draft format, to lay out the case. Quoting the 100's of pages of public CIA-AF documents to prove every nitpicky little point would itself obviously take 100's of pages of posts and I don't intend to give it all away in that fashion anyway. The public documents are there for you and anyone else to read and I've laid out some signs on a road map. >>**As the AF planned***, the supposed "best UFO" cases blew up >>into IFO's at the Robertson Panel, which never got the set of best >>cases that Ruppelt kept in a special file collection. The CIA was >>humiliated and never suspected it was an AF trick. The CIA >>was thus manipulated by the AF into drawing the conclusion that >>UFOs must just be IFO's, nothing more, and ought to be >>vigorously debunked. But the UFO community does not want to read >>the released CIA documents and see this is the case - the CIA >>can only be the root of all UFO evil in the UFO community's >>party line view of UFO history. >Where is the slightest documentary evidence for this extreme >revisionist history? <snip> What you call "extreme revisionist history" is in fact taken straight out of publicly available declassified and other CIA-AF documents, and even published press interviews, as I've been painstakingly pointing out (above), in fact in the very quote above I say this is in "the released CIA documents." I just do not intend to give it all away here. I welcome you to read _all_ the CIA documents from 1952 for example. And you apparently do not dispute that the CIA OSI tried to set up every UFO researcher's dream team at MIT to do the full-scale top-rank scientific study of UFO's we've all dreamed about for ages. Just read Chadwell's memos to the Director of the CIA. I apologize
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Argentine Cattle Mutilations and Space Aliens? From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:46:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:58:41 -0400 Subject: Argentine Cattle Mutilations and Space Aliens? INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 28, 2005 Source: Planeta UFO Date: 05.27.05 ARGENTINA: CATTLE MUTILATIONS AND SPACE ALIENS ** A report from David Albarrac=EDn ** On April 13, 2005 and during a chat with citizen Lorenzo Villegas, a native of the town of Los Membrillos, Department of Pringles, Province of San Luis, he told me about a case involving some "little goats" belonging to a friend of his from the town of El Suyuque. This friend had experienced a significant loss to his goat herd -- about 100 animals found dead under strange circumstances. This citizen, when asked about his opinion regarding the unexplained phenomenon, gave an unexpected reply: "...these are people who have come from other worlds, other planets and who must be conducting experiments with the [organs] they're removing from the animals..." When asked if he has any grounds on which to base his manner of thinking, he replied very calmly: "...Yes, of course. I've seen them and so has a friend of mine," says the interviewee, breaking into the following account: "Some time ago, when returning from a birthday party on muleback, I was traversing my locality and came to the river, which isn't massive but is very wide. That's when I heard a buzzing sound coming from downriver, just like the sound made by Deutz tractor turbines. That surprised me, since it was four o'clock in the morning at the time and there are neither houses nor anything else in that place. I spurred the mule and in mid-river, with some 30 meters left to reach the opposite bank, the buzzing became louder and louder, like a strong wind. I looked and saw amid the darkness three large plate-shaped objects which were heading upriver, lighting everything as bright as day. The mule got spooked and I jumped off, lying flat in the shallows and quiet. The plate-shaped objects continued upriver, as if looking for something...." He continued his story. "Mr. Antonio Contreras, a neighbor of mine, remarks that the locals complained that their dogs wouldn't let them sleep a wink, since they were barking all night. When he went outside, he saw the three large luminous object...shaped like plates." "I didn't tell anyone, since I was afraid they'd laugh at me, but sometime later, while checking out my animals, I was astonished to see some incredible marks on the soil on a side road in a swamp belonging to the Los Cha=F1ares wilderness in the Pringles Department. The marks seemed to indicate that the place had been burned. I took some time to measure them. The three of them measured 4 x 6 meters each and weren't together -- rather, they were separated some 5 to 8 meters away from each other. That's when I realized that these were [made by] the same objects I had seen in the river." This citizen is receptive to interviews and is willing to take interested parties to the site where he found the marks.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:46:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:00:59 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:07:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >Bob, >Remember the question is not what are UFOs or are all UFOs of ET >origin. The question is "are any?". Sure most UFOs are all sorts >of IFOs. I don't care about them. But manufacturered high >performance apparently metallic craft able to zoom up up and >away sound like they weren't made here.Mother ships like in the >Yukon case that are 0.6-1.2 miles long surely sound like they >weren't made here. What are these other explanations? If they >had been of earthly origin, they would have shown up in Vietnam >or Korea. >What are these other solutions? >My list of IFOs is very long. Stan, Even some relatively staid physicists are talking about parallel universes these days, and about ways we could slip through and communicate with beings in them. I think that has already been done, and that communication has been going on in both directions for a very long time now. But I think there is much more to it than that. Anyone who has made a study of the Western Magickal Tradition will at some point realize that the entities being communicated with by magicians are identical to our little gray "friends". Compare the drawings done by Aleister Crowley with those of abductees and contactees. Same little dudes. Same difficulties in understanding human concepts of time and space. Same powers over people. I'm not certain just exactly what is going on or what the motives are, but I am strongly convinced that these "others" have contacted, communicated with, abducted, experimented on, and otherwise had dealings with humanity since before we were humanity. I have seen no compelling evidence that they are anything other than a natural part of the multiverse that our universe is but one aspect of. And it may turn out that our present concept of parallel universes is just as removed from reality as an Australian Aborigine's view of the universe. In fact, the Abo may be closer than we are to understanding what is really going on behind the veil. A lot of UFOlogists, and I suspect you are in this group, Stan, are looking for a nuts and bolts explanation. Something we can knock up against. I'm just not sure that if we ever do know the truth it will be something that can be squeezed into this mold. Do I have any answers? No. I don't presume to know what is going on. I think we need more of this attitude in the study of UFOs. I've seen one of the bloody things, and I came away with a sense of open-eyed wonder and an underlying terror. Most of all, a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:59:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:07:52 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Aldrich >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:09 +0000 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT >>Subject: Re: British National Archives <snip> Brad wrote about some of his ideas about Ruppelt, the CIA and USAF in his article "Ruppelt's Coverup" starting on page 40 of the "Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group UFO History Workshop." http://www.project1947.com/shg/wonline.htm Here is my criticism of Ruppelt's selection process for the Robertson Panel: 1. No close encounter sightings were presented to the panel although there were such cases in the USAF or other government files. 2. Most cases involving triangulated were not presented to the panel including cases which were filmed by cineotheodolites. 3. Various cases involving physical effects were not submitted to the panel. 4. Cases which contained enough information to calculate approximate speed, size, altitude and distant were not submitted to the panel. (specifically, the 1949 southern Oregon aircraft/UFO encounter.) Hynek identified one of the cases submitted to the panel as an IFO prior to the panel meeting. Except for JANP (probably a typos for Joint Army Navy Air Publication) 101 on radar, technical data and discussion of radar was not thoroughly addressed by the presenters or the panel members. One of the panel concerns was the possible clogging of intelligence channels with UFO reports. In light of that, the following actions are very strange: 1. The USAF issued a press release inviting UFO reports and telling what information was requested. 2. The US Air Attache contacted the Royal Australian Air Force and requested copies of RAAF UFO cases. 3. Commander Bernard Burach, Jr. met with Airline executives to insure that CIRVIS reports and news media reports specifically stated that UFOs reports were wanted and that in Feb 1954 5 to 10 were made a night. Apparently the only place the Navy was consulted was concerning the Tremonton and Great Falls movie analyses. However, in 1951, they had according to press reports analyzed 2000 UFO reports (more reports than existed in the USAF files at the time so some kind of explanation would seem appropriate.) Brad can tell you about his research. He contacted a number of CIA and USAF intelligence officials who were involved in the UFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Ufology 2005 Making Ground? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:11:50 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:10:23 -0400 Subject: Ufology 2005 Making Ground? Of course my favorite UFO story this year is that of a gent who calls himself a prophet who can call UFOs on demand to appear in some cases. He was featured on C2C last Friday and the vid is here: http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=ufoondemand.wmv I was reading posts on the Brazilian disclosures and breakthroughs in science in Britain and Korea regarding stem cells and cloning and kept feeling like at any minute Rod Serling's ghost would appear. I'm still waiting for more news from China. Yes I'm asking all pals, kin, god children etc. who are there or have connections to dig into it. Believe it or not they're telling me that there is no subject more hot in China than UFOs!!! I was blown over! I thought they would be wondering about HDTV or video games, but no way. They're watching DVDs of X Files and UFO documentaries that many of you appear in or produced. I guess they found someone who translated them or sub- -titled them. Anyhow, the numbers are alarming as to how many Chinese are getting hip to UFOlogy and have started their own UFO investigation groups. What's extra good and a major difference is no one would dare to invalidate or mock someone who related a UFO story there. Reason being in that culture it's unaccepted to berate someone like we do. In that climate of civilized respect we've yet to achieve the researchers there are gleaning information that dwarfs our efforts. I think in a short while, perhaps a year on the outside the Chinese will show just how sharp and professional they are in the sciences and research fields on this subject. Best to study the language and literature gang :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 The Yukon Case [was: The End of SETI As We Know From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:24:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:19:56 -0400 Subject: The Yukon Case [was: The End of SETI As We Know >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:07:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:25:13 -0400 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:06:54 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >><snip> >>>I can't force them to look at the evidence. Obviously if aliens >>>are visiting, there is not much need for the Silly Effort To >>>Investigate. >><snip> >Bob, >Remember the question is not what are UFOs or are all UFOs of ET >origin. The question is "are any?". Sure most UFOs are all sorts >of IFOs. I don't care about them. But manufacturered high >performance apparently metallic craft able to zoom up up and >away sound like they weren't made here. Mother ships like in the >Yukon case that are 0.6-1.2 miles long surely sound like they >weren't made here. What are these other explanations? If they >had been of earthly origin, they would have shown up in Vietnam >or Korea. Hi Stan, Brief words regarding the Yukon case, It can be pointed out that is clearly shown in the drawing below, that sometimes a single eyewitness account for actual size, detail and scale is really just a misnomer that is no-fault of human judgment rather, what resulted from improper lighting or angle of projection at the start, artists depictions shall we say, are sketchy at best. <G> http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/2209fox2draw4neg.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Project Echelon Ever Vigilant! From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:57:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:23:04 -0400 Subject: Project Echelon Ever Vigilant! JUNE 2001 - The E.C. Parliament has confirmed (admitted?) the existence of the communications intelligence and information exchange network called ECHELON. This global network of wiretaps, data-sniffing and general eavesdropping systems enables the U.S. government (and probably the U.K.) to intercept digital communications. In effect this means that, amongst other activities, ECHELON is capable of recording all email messages and all telephone conversations - regardless of who is making them. ECHELON is based at Menwith Hill in North Yorkshire(UK) U.K - rumours of its existence have circulated for years. ECHELON does not require a suspicion element to monitor any communications and can, therefore, snoop into innocent peoples personal data. An E.C. spokesman stated that there is good reason to believe that information has been obtained by ECHELON by illegally monitoring private emails. Tony Topping submitted an article, which has been published in Selby local newspapers, to The WHY? Files. Tony lives in Selby, a market town in North Yorkshire approximately 50 miles from Menwith Hill. He has had a number of UFO experiences and maintains that he has been persecuted by the staff of Menwith Hill. A strange story =96 perhaps but before passing judgment why not take the time to also read MK Ultra a The WHY? Files. Then, perhaps, Tony's story will become increasingly credible. See:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: 'Prophet Yaweh' Video - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:06:04 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:24:25 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Prophet Yaweh' Video - Boone >From: Paul Frehley <slh.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:51:54 +0800 >Subject: 'Prophet Yaweh' Video >Can anyone provide an explanation for this guy's video which is >featured on the Coast to Coast website? >It looks like a weather balloon - except that it was allegedly >"summoned". And apparently, it is repeatable. >Check out the video here: >mms://wm->ondemand.abacast.com/prophet_yahweh/ABCnews1.wmv >If you have problems with that link, go to the Coast website >past shows section for May 27th. Here's the original broadcast: http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=ufoondemand.wmv The following two are from other outings http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=ufoondemand2.wmv http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=ufoondemand3.wmv
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:19:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:26:31 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 15:02:12 -0400 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:57:49 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >><snip> >>>I welcome enlightenment. >>_Do_ you! My warm and fuzzy index remains nonplussed, but that >>may be just me. I still perceive a sneer wrapped in a smirk and >>camouflaging a snicker. I further suspect enlightenment is not >>on your program. Perhaps if you had begun differently... it may >>be too late now. >Yeah, I read and re-read this post as well. Either it's extremely >naive or extremely insulting. No matter. In either case it goes >to the heart of his credibility as a researcher. I don't think >I'll be reading any more of his posts. I think it's fair to say if you've read one you've read them all. It's the on-message klasskurxian group think and party-line talking-points that make them predictable. They should review alternate approaches. The current ones seem to dwindle in success and effectiveness... lacking even in entertainment value and easier to ignore. For example, I'm not that interested in seeing what Mr. Rimmer has to say about Betty and Barney is his "mag-e-mag" even...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:23:45 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:29:46 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Hall >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:09 +0000 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:25:09 EDT >>>Subject: Re: British National Archives >>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:45:57 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: British National Archives UFO Research Guide >>>>I don't dispute that Clarke and Roberts were the first >>>>ufologists to _claim_ that they obtained the documents. They've >>>>_claimed_ to be the first to acquire all sorts of material; an >>>>article in The Observer on May 5 2002 implied they uncovered a >>>>CIA memo on UFOs written by Walter B. Smith, when in fact it was >>>>published by Timothy Good in 1987, in his book Above Top Secret. >>>In fact there was never any such secret CIA document written by >>>CIA Director Walter B. Smith in the first place. This is a >>>serious error of document analysis. Enthusiasts who desperately >>>want an all-important CIA Director to seemingly be treating UFOs >>>as a matter of national security have conveniently failed to >>>read that this one-page document was a DRAFT written by a lower >>>level CIA official (CIA OSI chief Chadwell) and sent to DCI >>>Smith in Sept 1952 for his signature and for Smith to send it >>>officially to the National Security Council (NSC). >>>But Director Smith never signed the DRAFT and never sent any >>>such thing off to the NSC. He quite obviously had rejected it! >>>Chadwell kept re-sending the document for Smith's signature and >>>urging him to approve OSI's heroic plan to take over the UFO >>>problem from the AF and set up a government-wide serious >>>scientific investigation of UFOs, to be directed by the >>>illustrious MIT - in other words every UFO researcher's dream. >>>However the enthusiasts refuse to be bothered with such minor >>>matters as reading documents in context, reading chains of >>>correspondence for responses and non-responses, discerning >>>whether "attachments" are drafts and unapproved (or subsequently >>>rejected by what we would call in legislative affairs a "pocket >>>veto", you just sit on it and don't act within a period of time >>>and it dies without having to make a public or even an internal >>>official expression of rejection). >What? No comment on the above? It's taken straight from the CIA >UFO documents of 1952. At the risk of sounding like Brad Sparks, I simply don't have the time to comment on every single statement. So let's cut to the chase... >If you don't dispute the above then you must agree that the CIA's >OSI had a "heroic plan to take over the UFO problem from the AF >and set up a government-wide serious scientific investigation of >UFOs, to be directed by the illustrious MIT - in other words every >UFO researcher's dream." This is taken straight out of Chadwell's >memos to the Director of CIA Smith, so you really cannot dispute >this and if you cannot dispute this then how can you really reject >the rest of my argument since it's a natural consequence of the >preceding, it all flows from these premises? Because I don't comment doesn't mean I agree with something. If that were the case I would have to be screaming at the top of my lungs nonstop. >It's all taken straight from the CIA UFO documents of 1952, >publicly released and available on the Internet (except one key >coverup document the CIA quietly removed from its website). >>Now here comes the mind-boggling part: >So you don't dispute the preceding See above... >only the following. But you >cannot separate the two parts. If CIA OSI had a heroic plan to >take over the AF's UFO project with a government-wide CIA- > controlled scientific study of UFO's put in the hands of top >scientists at MIT, then the rest must follow, sorry. >>>Rank-and-file UFO researchers also do not want the CIA to get >>>any credit for a heroic role because they have already made up >>>their minds that the CIA can only have a villainous role in the >>>UFO controversy, the CIA can only be the evil agency behind the >>>"sinister coverup" of proof of alien visitation, and that CIA >>>officials were behind the despised Robertson Panel as diabolical >>>ETH-denying debunkers. >>The CIA officials were behind the UFO debunking, clearly and >>obvioiusly. >Well Dick can you quote any CIA officials advocating the >debunking of UFO's in 1952 _prior_ to the Robertson Panel? Not >just negative or skeptical views, not just quoting AF officials >advocating the debunking (that's where the CIA got the idea in >the first place). But CIA officials in 1952 advocating a program >of debunking UFO's, find me a quote. >If you were at a Robertson Panel and you were told these were >the "best UFO" cases the AF had and you found out they blew up >into pathetic IFO's, you'd be all for debunking UFO's too. >Unless of course you found out the AF was deceiving you and >substituting IFO cases for UFO's, and holding back a special >file of best UFO Unknowns. Oh, I forgot... the Tremonton film was seagulls. Yeah, right! <snip> >Between the date the Robertson Panel was ordered on Dec 4, 1952, >till it convened on Jan 14, 1953, was only 40 days. And I don't >believe anyone would give up Christmas and New Year's for such >an onerous job, and not 6 weekends in a row either. Did CIA have >someone stationed at Project Blue Book in Dayton during those 40 >days to read through every page?? No, of course not, the CIA >relied on the AF to select the "best UFO" cases. >I'm just reporting what is in already publicly released CIA UFO >documents, but _all_ of them, not just a selection, _all_ of the >CIA documents, including one the CIA quietly pulled off its FOIA >reading room website. >>>In fact the AF was behind the Robertson Panel and forced it on >>>the CIA. The CIA did not want a hasty small panel rushing to >>>judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific >>>study of UFOs preferably at MIT. In fact CIA/OSI tried to >>>postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical >>>study but got overruled by evident AF pressure on DCI Smith. The >>>AF had gone over the CIA's heads in the first place to the IAC >>>and manipulated orders for a quickie panel done as fast as >>>possible. What do you mean the AF was behind the Robertson Panel? It was a CIA Panel according to the entire historical record. Who selected the soientists to serve on it? Who medrated it? Where was it held? >Again, no comment on the above? It's taken straight from the CIA >UFO documents of 1952. If you don't dispute the above See above... >then you >cannot dispute the rest. So I take it Dick that you do not dispute >the facts taken straight out of the CIA documents that: >(a) CIA OSI did not want a hasty small panel rushing to judgment >but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific study of >UFO's preferably at MIT; >(b) CIA/OSI tried to postpone the Panel to give more time for >Battelle's statistical study (of the full 4,000 AF UFO cases >that CIA did not have copies of and could not possibly have read >in the short time forced on it) but OSI's postponement got >overruled, and they were forced back onto the fast-track >schedule for the Robertson Panel. It's this sort of mind-reading which reveals your constant confusion between facts and your personal opinions and interpretations. You never present your argument in full and document it. Instead, you claim it's all there in the record. I certainly dispuite that. Until you publish your case in a book or full-length thesis, it just won't float. >>Note language highlighted *** by me (Hall) >>>The AF tricked the CIA with ***deviously selected IFO cases*** >>>dressed up as the "best" UFOs. Based on this the CIA reached the >>>conclusion that UFOs were ET in origin in late 1952 (as Chadwell >>>and his deputy Ralph Clark both told me) but only until the AF >>>sprung its trap at the Robertson Panel. >>What was the motivation for this devious Air Force plot, Brad? >>We now know firmly that the Air Force (very strong key elements >>thereof) did believe UFOs were ET in origin. Are you suggesting >>thye deliberately deceived the CIA in this regard out of >>organizational jealousy? >Oh so you're telling me Dick that the fact (it's an indisputable >fact on the record as I've repeatedly pointed out) that the CIA >tried to take over an Air Force intelligence program (the one on >UFO's) by trying to go over the AF's head to the National >Security Council (NSC) that didn't piss off the AF to the max >and make the AF, the single largest and most powerful agency of >the US Government in 1952, to swear out a vendetta against the >tiny pipsqueak upstart CIA?? This is your interpretation, Brad, and a very poorly documented opinion. >It's also an indisputable fact, on the public record, that CIA >associated its UFO researchers' dream plan for an ongoing >permanent scientific study of UFO's with those that the paranoid >McCarthyite AF Strategic Air Command (SAC) partisans deemed to >be guilty of "TREASON" and that the CIA did not realize this >until it was too late that it had touched a raw nerve with the >AF. Obviously that pissed off the AF even more than the blatant >CIA power grab in trying to take over an Air Intelligence >mission (UFO's). I love your 'indisputable facts'. If Brad Sparks says so, its indisputable. It doesn't have to be documented. Geez, I wish I had that primal authority; it would save me so much time. >This too is in the public record of CIA and other government >documents which no one bothers to read. You do not need my 1979 >in-person interview of Fournet's boss in AF Intelligence, Col. >Weldon H. Smith, former Chief, Current Intelligence Branch, >Topical Intelligence Division, Deputy Directorate for Estimates, >(AFOIN-2A2), raging in anger even after almost a quarter century >that the CIA had tried to intrude into the AF's jurisdiction >over UFO's as a strictly Air Intelligence matter. This is >already something that can be deduced from the public records -- > if you look hard enough and read enough documents (I've read >100,000's of pages in the course of my research) and do enough >oral history interviews of key participants (I've done about 100 >CIA Directors, Deputy Directors, Asst. Directors, AFOIN >officers, NSA, and many others). The truth is in there! >However I do not intend to spend time here giving out _all_ of >my years of hard work, my proprietary research work product >amounting to 3,000+ pages in very crude rough draft format, to >lay out the case. Quoting the 100's of pages of public CIA-AF >documents to prove every nitpicky little point would itself >obviously take 100's of pages of posts and I don't intend to >give it all away in that fashion anyway. The public documents >are there for you and anyone else to read and I've laid out some >signs on a road map. Yes, you don't care to document it as all lesser mortals are required to do. How convenient. >>>**As the AF planned***, the supposed "best UFO" cases blew up >>>into IFO's at the Robertson Panel, which never got the set of best >>>cases that Ruppelt kept in a special file collection. The CIA was >>>humiliated and never suspected it was an AF trick. The CIA >>>was thus manipulated by the AF into drawing the conclusion that >>>UFOs must just be IFO's, nothing more, and ought to be >>>vigorously debunked. But the UFO community does not want to read >>>the released CIA documents and see this is the case - the CIA >>>can only be the root of all UFO evil in the UFO community's >>>party line view of UFO history. If you believe the Tremonton objects were seagulls, then I have grave doubts about your analytical abilities. I personally interviewed Newhouse at length and I have read the Baker et al. analyses. >>Where is the slightest documentary evidence for this extreme >>revisionist history? >What you call "extreme revisionist history" is in fact taken >straight out of publicly available declassified and other CIA-AF >documents, and even published press interviews, as I've been >painstakingly pointing out (above), in fact in the very quote >above I say this is in "the released CIA documents." I just do >not intend to give it all away here. Just publish it! I welcome you to read _all_ >the CIA documents from 1952 for example. And you apparently do >not dispute that the CIA OSI tried to set up every UFO >researcher's dream team at MIT to do the full-scale top-rank >scientific study of UFO's we've all dreamed about for ages. Just >read Chadwell's memos to the Director of the CIA. I apologize >that Chadwell's memos amount to over 50 pages or so, but I can't >help that fact, and I cannot type out 50+ pages here on UFO >UpDates and go over them line by line for another 50+ pages of >commentary-analysis-explanation, and I trust you will agree that >such a 100+-page project is an unreasonable demand. No, it's not unreasonable. If you continually make claims that are, in fact, revisionist, it is your responsbility to either
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Alien Abduction Study Results From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:57:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:32:08 -0400 Subject: Alien Abduction Study Results List, I posted information on this in response to an earlier post from Luis Gonzalez, but in view of the previous interest in this, I thought I'd re-post it as a fresh thread, to give the information greater visibility. Professor Chris French will shortly be giving a presentation on the alien abduction study undertaken by him and his team at Goldsmiths College, University of London. The lecture will take place at a conference in Liverpool on Saturday June 4: http://www.hope.ac.uk/anomalousexperience/programme.htm The final report should be ready soon afterwards. I will post again when I have further information on this. More details of the study can be found in these previous posts: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m30-012.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m03-005.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m07-023.shtml
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 'I Have No Doubt They're Out There' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:59:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:59:36 -0400 Subject: 'I Have No Doubt They're Out There' Source: KOMO-TV - Bellingham, Washington State http://www.komotv.com/stories/37060.htm May 26, 2005 'I Have No Doubt They're Out There' By Brian Calvert BELLINGHAM - It's been the subject of countless books, a handful of movies, and everyone has heard of it while sitting around a campfire. And this weekend, there will be a gathering in Bellingham to discuss a creature that's thought to be roaming in a forest near you. "I had a gentleman sitting next to me in the car and I knew I wasn't hallucinating, we both saw it," recounts eyewitness Jason Valenti. "And the hands looked very human. That's what really disturbed me. I was like 'Wait a minute, what is this thing?'" "I have no doubt that they're out there, and they're out there in reasonably large numbers," says researcher Lloyd Pye. It's a subject not taken lightly by anyone who's ever come face to face with Bigfoot. "When I was driving late one night, I had almost run one over," Valenti recalls. "We were so close to her, that if the window would have been rolled down, Dennis (passenger) could have grabbed her arm." And how did you know it was a "her?" "We really didn't know it was a female until we saw the breasts bouncing up and down," Valenti explains. Jason Valenti is not the only believer. This weekend, he'll host a Sasquatch Research Conference in Bellingham. The conference will bring together Bigfoot experts from around the country. "In reality, there are creatures all over the world that walk upright that aren't human; those are Hominoids," explains hominoid researcher Lloyd Pye. He says there's plenty of evidence Sasquatch creatures exists, and offers a warning to non-believers. "You've just simply been brainwashed, and you're ignorant of the facts that are out there," Pye says. One of the biggest pieces of evidence dates back to 1967, when a Sasquatch was filmed by Roger Patterson in Bluff Creek, California. Canadian researcher Chris Murphy says the film --- which shows a creature built like a linebacker running through the brush - is backed up by the numerous footprints found. "They're (footprints) not fake-able, I mean, they're far too good to be fake," Murphy tells KOMO News.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Time We Made Aliens Carry Green Cards From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:03:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:03:31 -0400 Subject: Time We Made Aliens Carry Green Cards Source: Cheboygan Daily Tribune - Cheboygan, Missiouri http://tinyurl.com/7p38d Friday, May 279, 2005 It's Time We Made Space Aliens Carry Green Cards By Bruce D. Callander The television keeps showing programs about efforts to contact people in outer space. I think they are on the wrong track. Years ago, NASA sent up a space ship with a plaque of a naked couple and some mathematical equations. Then they beamed a radio signal toward the sky and set receiving stations to see if anybody would answer. All that is well and good, but I think it is a waste of time. If you listen to the people who actually have been abducted by aliens, you know that you don't have to send out messages and probes to find them. They come to you. I don't mean that those people actually have encountered aliens. Frankly, most of them sound a little nutty and their accounts of the meetings don't hold up. My theory is that instead of encountering aliens, those people are themselves aliens posing as New York cab drivers and farmers from Iowa. Think about it. They sound hesitant and confused when they talk about their experiences as though they were making them up. We know how really serious people act when they meet aliens because we have seen them in the movies and on TV. They wear white coats and talk about scientific stuff. If I am right, the aliens who have visited earth are smart enough to have some of their number pretend to be earth people who have seen flying saucers. They know that once the word gets out that somebody has seen something flying over his trailer park with little green creatures in it, nobody will pay any attention. Either that or they will go looking for crop circles and mysterious drawings. Meanwhile, the rest of the aliens will be free to make their observations without being bothered. The fact is that aliens don't want to be contacted by earthlings. Not yet anyway. If they have lived in any of our cities, they probably have been mugged or had their purses stolen. If they watch TV or listen to today's music, they probably are convinced that we haven't evolved to the point where we are worth knowing. My suspicion is that the aliens among us are college kids or, at the most, graduate students who have been sent to study us lower life forms as part of Biology 101. They scrutinize us because we are slightly more advanced than frogs and easier to observe in the wild than monkeys. We should be aware that there are aliens among us, again because of the movies and television and all those articles in the tabloids at the check-out counter. You can spot them by looking into their eyes. Most of the time, they look all right but, sometimes their pupils turn red and their canine teeth get longer. This means they are either aliens or vampires. If they don't go for your neck, chances are they are aliens. I think the movies get one thing about aliens wrong. They always show them living in rural communities, sending their kids to public school and waiting to take over the world. If that were the case, we would run into them at PTA meetings and neighborhood cook-outs and I don't think that is the way they spend their time. My hunch is that they live in big cities, where they work in offices but have their evenings and weekends off. That way, they can get together during their free time and do whatever it is they like to do. In an apartment in a city such as New York, you can do pretty much what you want as long as you don't make too much noise after ten o'clock. The reason I think that this is how it works is that I can't imagine an alien's wanting to spend a lot of time on earth. I think he more likely would serve one tour to get the hazard pay and then take an office job back home. You probably have had the experience of meeting someone interesting and trying to look him up again only to discover he has moved and left no forwarding address. The rumor is that he
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:37:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:37:24 -0400 Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa http://tinyurl.com/789jd 09 August 2004 Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' Sydney Forget waiting for ET to call - the most likely place to find an alien message is in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia. Professor Paul Davies, from the Australian Centre for Astrobiology at Macquarie University in Sydney, believes a cosmic greeting card could have been left in every human cell. The coded message would only be discovered once the human race had the technology to read and understand it. Writing in New Scientist magazine, Davies said the idea should be considered seriously. For more than 40 years astronomers have been sweeping the skies with radio telescopes hoping to catch a signal from an alien civilisation. So far the search has been in vain. But Davies believes it is wrong to assume that extraterrestrials who may be hundreds of millions of years ahead of us technologically will have chosen to communicate by radio. Leaving artefacts for humans to find once they are sufficiently evolved - like the obelisk in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey - - might be a more attractive strategy, he said. But ensuring the survival of such an artefact over possibly millions of years would be difficult. A better solution would be to incorporate information into the human genome, allowing it to be copied and maintained over immense periods of time. One way to do this might be to deliver alien viruses which could infect cells with message-laden DNA, said Davies. Scientists have recently discovered large sequences of "junk" DNA that contain no genes and appears to be very stable. "If ET has put a message into terrestrial organisms, this is surely where to look," said Davies. A computer could be used to find obvious attention-grabbing patterns within these stretches of DNA, he said. If a sequence of junk units of DNA were displayed as an array of pixels on a screen and produced a simple image "the presumption of tampering would be inescapable". The DNA code was easily big enough to contain a decent-sized novel or a potted history of the rise and fall of an alien civilisation.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:39:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:39:35 -0400 Subject: New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some Source: http://www.gewo.applet.cz/health/DNA_1e.htm January 22, 2001 New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some Surprises A group of researchers working at the Human Genome Project will be announcing soon that they made an astonishing scientific discovery: They believe so-called non-coding sequences (97%) in human DNA is no less than genetic code of an unknown extraterrestrial life form. The non-coding sequences are common to all living organisms on Earth, from molds to fish to humans. In human DNA, they constitute larger part of the total genome, says Prof. Sam Chang, the group leader. Non-coding sequences, also known as "junk DNA", were discovered years ago, and their function remains mystery. Unlike normal genes, which carry the information that intracellular machinery uses to synthesize proteins, enzymes and other chemicals produced by our bodies, non-coding sequences are never used for any purpose. They are never expressed, meaning that the information they carry is never read, no substance is synthesized and they have no function at all. We exist on only 3% of our DNA. The junk genes merely enjoy the ride with hard working active genes, passed from generation to generation. What are they? How come these idle genes are in our genome? Those were the question many scientists posed and failed to answer - until the breakthrough discovery by Prof. Sam Chang and his group. Trying to understand the origins and meaning of junk DNA Prof. Chang realized that he first needs a definition of "junk". Is junk DNA really junk, (useless and meaningless) or it contains some information not claimed by the rest of DNA for whatever reason? He once mentioned the question to an acquaintance, Dr. Lipshutz, a young theoretical physicist turned Wall Street derivative securities specialist. "Easy," replied Lipshutz. "We'll run your sequence through the software I use to analyze market data, and it will show if your sequences are total garbage, "white noise", or there is a message in there." This new breed of analysts with strong background in math, physics and statistics are getting more and more popular with Wall Street firms. They sift through gigabytes of market statistics, trying to uncover useful correlation between the various market indexes, and individual stocks. Working evenings and weekends, Lipshutz managed to show that non-coding sequences are not all junk, they carry information. Combining massive database of the Human Genome Project with thousands of data files developed by geneticists all over the world Lipshutz calculated Kolmogorov entropy of the non-coding sequences and compared it with the entropy of regular, active genes. Kolmogorov entropy, introduced by the famous Russian mathematician half a century ago, was successfully used to quantify the level of randomness in various sequences, from time sequences of noise in radio lamps to sequences of letters in 19th century Russian poetry. By and large, the technique allows researchers to quantitatively compare various sequences and conclude which one carries more information than the other does. "To my surprise, the entropy of coding and non-coding DNA sequences was not that different", continues Lipshutz. "There was noise in both but it was no junk at all. If the market data were that orderly, I would have already retired." After a year of cooperation with Lipshutz, Chang was convinced, there is a hidden information in junk DNA. However, how could one understand its meaning if the information is never used? With active sequences you try to watch the cell and see what proteins are being made using the information. This wouldn't work with dormant genes. There will be experiment to test a hypothesis; one should rely on the power of his thought. Since there are letters, it should be tested in some old languages, perhaps Sumerian, Egyptian, Hebrew, and so on. Prof. Sam Chang solicited help from three specialists in the field, but none of them managed to find a solution. There were no cultural clues, no references to other known languages, the field was too alien for the linguists. "I asked myself: who else can decipher a hidden message?" Chang continues. "Of course, cryptographers! In addition, I began talking with researchers at the National Security Agency. It took me few months to make them return my calls. Were they running background checks on me? Alternatively, were they too busy lobbying senators on retaining and strengthening their authority to control exports of encryption technologies? Eventually, a junior fellow was assigned to answer my questions. He listened, requested my questions in writing and after another, few months turned me down. His message was polite but meant, "Go to hell with your crazy ideas. We are a serious agency, its National Security, dude. We are too busy." Well, Sam, forget the Government, talk to the private sector. Therefore, I began approaching computer security consultants. They were genuinely interested, and a couple of them even began working on my project, but their enthusiasm always faded after a month. I kept calling them until one nice fellow told me: "I'd love to work on your project if I had more time. I am overbooked. Emissaries of major banks and Fortune 500 companies are begging me to plumb the holes in their networks. They pay me $500 an hour. I can give you an educational discount, can you afford $350?" Scrambling $15/hr for a post doctoral studies is a big deal in academia, $350 sounded as something extraorbital." Eventually Prof. Chang was referred to Dr. Adnan Mussaelian, a talented cryptographer in the former Soviet republic of Armenia. Poor fellow barely survived on a $15 a month salary and occasional fees for tutoring children of Armenian nuveau riches. A $10,000 research grant was a struck of luck, he began working like a beaver. Adnan promptly confirmed the findings of his Wall Street predecessor: The entropy indicated tons of information almost in the clear, it was not too strong cryptographic system, it didn't appear to be a tough problem. Adnan began applying differential cryptoanalysis and similar standard cryptographic techniques. He was two months in the project when he noticed that all non- coding sequences are usually preceded by one short DNA sequence. A very similar sequence usually followed the junk. These segments, known to biologists as alu sequences, were all over the whole human genome. Being non-coding, junk sequences themselves, alu are one of the most common genes of all. Trained as a cryptographer and computer programmer, and having no knowledge of microbiology, Adnan approached the genetic code as of computer code. Dealing with 0, 1, 2, 3 (four bases of genetic code) instead of 0s and 1s of the binary code was a sort of nuisance, but the computer code was what he was analyzing and deciphering all his life. He was on familiar territory. The most common symbol in the code that causes no action followed by a chunk of dormant code. What is that? Just playing with the analogy Adnan grabbed the source code of one his programs and fed it into the program that calculates the statistics of symbols and short sequences, a tool often used in decoding messages. What was the most common symbol? Of course, it was "/", a symbol of comment! He took a Pascal code, and it were { and } ! Of course, the code between two slashes in C is never executed, and is never meant to be executed; it is not the code, it is the comment to the code! Being unable to resist the temptation to further play with the analogy, Adnan began comparing statistical distributions of the comments in computer and genetic code. There must be a striking difference. This should show up in statistics. Nevertheless, statistically, junk DNA was not much different from active, coding sequences. To be sure, Adnan fed a program into the analyzer: surprisingly, the statistics of code and comments were almost the same. He looked into the source code and realized why: there were very few comments in between the slashes, it was mostly C code the author decided to exclude from execution, a common practice among programmers. Adnan, religiously inclined person, was thinking about the divine hand - but after analyzing the spaghetti code inside the sequences he convinced himself that whoever wrote the small code was not God. Who wrote the active, small coding part of human genetic code was not very well organized, he was a rather sloppy programmer. It looked like rather somebody from Microsoft, but at the time human genetic code was written, there was no Microsoft on Earth. On Earth? It was like a lightning... Was the genetic code for all life on Earth written by an extraterrestrial programmer and then somehow deposited here, for execution? The idea was mad and frightening, and Adnan resisted it for days. Then he decided to proceed. If the non-coding sequences are parts of the program that were rejected or abandoned by the author, there is a way to make them work. The only thing one needs to do is to remove the symbols of comments and if the portion between the /*......*/ symbols is a meaningful routine it may compile and execute! Following this line of thought, Adnan selected only those non- coding sequences that had exactly the same frequency distribution of symbols as the active genes. This procedure excluded the comments in Marcian or Q, whatever it was. He selected some 200 non-coding sequences that most closely resembled real genes, stripped them of /*, //, and similar stuff and after few days of hesitation sent e-mail to his American boss, asking him to find a way to put them in E-coli or whatever host and make them work. Chang did not replied for two weeks. "I thought I was fired", confessed Dr. Mussaelian. "With every day of his silence I more and more realized how crazy my idea was. Chang would conclude I was a schizophrenic and would terminate the contract. Chang finally responded and, to my surprise, he did not fire me. He had not bought my extraterrestrial theory but agreed to try to make my sequences work." Biologists have attempted for years to make junk sequences express, without much success. Sometimes nothing turned out; sometimes it was junk again. It was not surprising. Grab an arbitrary portion of the excluded computer code and try to compile it. Most likely, it will fail. At best, it will produce bizarre results. Analyze the code carefully, fish out a whole function from the comments, and you may make it work. Because of careful Mussaelian's statistical analysis 4 of the 200 sequences he selected, began working, producing tiny amounts of a chemical compounds. "I was anxiously awaiting the response from Chang," says Dr. Mussaelian. "Would it be a more or less normal protein or something out of ordinary? The answer was shocking: it was a substance, known to be produced by several types of leukemia in men and animals. Surprisingly, three other sequences also produced cancer-related chemicals. It no longer looked like a coincidence. When one awakens a viable dormant gene, it produces cancer-related proteins. Researchers began searching Human Genome Project databases for the four genes they isolated from junk DNA. Eventually, three of the four were found there, listed as active, non-junk genes. This was not a big surprise: since cancer tissues produce the protein, there must be somewhere a gene, which codes it! The surprise came later: In the active, non-junk portion of the code the gene in question (the researchers called it "jhlg1", for junk human leukemia gene) was not preceded by the alu sequence, i.e. the /* symbol was missing. However, the closing */ symbol at the end of "jhlg1" was there. This explained why "jhlg1" was not expressed in the depth of the junk DNA but worked fine in the normal, active part of the genome. The one who wrote the basic genetic code for humans excluded portion of the big code by embracing them in /*... */ but missed some of the opening /* symbol. His compiler seems to be garbage, too: a good compiler, even from terrestrial Microsoft, would most likely refuse to compile such program at all. Prof. Sam Chang with his students began searching for genes associated with various cancers, and almost in all instances they discovered that those genes are followed by the alu sequence (i.e. protein as a comment closing symbol */), but never preceded by the comment opening /* gene! "This explains why diseases result in cell damage and their death, whereas cancers lead to cell reproduction and growth. Because only few fragments from the big code are expressed, they never lead to coherent growth. What we get with cancer, is expression of only few of genes alien to humans and symbiosis with some genes of bacterial parasites that lead to illogical, bizarre and apparently meaningless chunks of living cells. The chunks have its own veins, arteries, and its own immune system that vigorously resists all our anti-cancer drugs. "Our hypothesis is that a higher extraterrestrial life form was engaged in creating new life and planting it on various planets. Earth is just one of them. Perhaps, after programming, our creators grow us the same way we grow bacteria in Petri dishes. We can't know their motives - whether it was a scientific experiment, or a way of preparing new planets for colonization, or is it long time ongoing business of seedling life in the universe. If we think about it in our human terms, the extraterrestrial programmers were most probably working on one big code consisting of several projects, and the projects should have produced various life forms for various planets. They have been also trying various solutions. They wrote the big code, executed it, did not like some function, changed them or added new one, executed again, made more improvements, tried again and again. Of course, soon or later it was behind schedule. Few deadlines have already passed. Then the management began pressing for an immediate release. The programmers were ordered to cut all their idealistic plans for the future and concentrate now on one (Earth) project to meet the pressing deadline. Very likely in a rush, the programmers cut down drastically the big code and delivered basic program intended for Earth. However, at that time they were (perhaps) not quite certain which functions of the big code may be needed later and which not, so they kept them all there. Instead of cleaning the basic program by deleting all the lines of the big code, they converted them into comments, and in the rush they missed few /* symbols in the comments here or there; thus presenting mankind with illogical growth of mass of cells we know as cancer." There are three options to the problem. Either delete all the /* symbols and comments and clean this way the basic code, or add all the missing */ and avoid illogical mixing of the basic code with the big code. Alternatively, in the third option, remove all the / symbols and let work the basic code with the big code as a complete program. Unfortunately, none of these options are within our capacity. If we were able to efficiently insert genes into the chromosomes of living men, our breakthrough discovery would mean instant cure for all future cancer cases; at least from the programmer point of view. Theoretically, we can do it in a laboratory, but we have no practical means to implant the repaired DNA into living subjects. The mystery of "junk DNA" and cancer seems to be solved, but no quick cure shall be expected. The best thing we can do now is to try nourishing new, cancer- free line of humans with gradually debugged basic genetic code. That will take a long time. For us and our children, there is no hope on the horizon. "However, from the programmer's point of view, there is also positive outlook in it. What we see in our DNA is a program consisting of two versions, a big code and basic code. First fact is, the complete program was positively not written on Earth; that is now a verified fact. The second fact is, that genes by themselves are not enough to explain evolution; there must be something more in the game. What it is or where it is, we don't kow. The third fact is, no creator of a new work, be it a composer, engineer or programmer, from Mars or Microsoft, will ever leave his work without the option for improvement or upgrade. Ingenious here is, that the upgrade is already enclosed - the "junk DNA" is nothing more than hidden and dormant upgrade of our basic code! We know for some time that certain cosmic rays have power to modify DNA. With this in mind, plausible solution is available. The extraterrestrial programmers may use just one flash of the right energy from somewhere in the Universe to instruct the basic code to remove all the /*=85*/ symbols, fuse itself with the big code ("junk DNA") and jumpstart working of our whole DNA. That would change us forever, some of us within months, some of us within generations. The change would be not too much physical, (except no more cancers, diseases and short life), but it will catapult us intellectually. Suddenly, we will be in time comparable to coexistence of Neanderthals with Cromagnons. The old will be replaced giving birth to a new cycle. The complete program is elegant, very clever self-organizing, auto-executing, auto- developing and auto-correcting software for a highly advanced biological computer with build-in connection to the ageless energy and wisdom of the Universe. Software wise, within us is either short and diseased life, or potential for a super- intelligent super-being with a long and healthy life. This triggers puzzling questions - was the reduction to the basic code done by sloppy programmers in a rush (as it appears to us), or was the disabling of the big code purposeful act which can be cancelled by a "remote control" whenever desired?" Soon or later, we have to come to grips with the unbelievable notion that every life on Earth carries genetic code for his extraterrestrial cousin and that evolution is not what we think it is. This discovery may well shake the very roots of humanity - our beliefs in our concept of God and in our own power over
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Living The Field Annual Conference 2005 From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:23:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:43:08 -0400 Subject: Living The Field Annual Conference 2005 The biggest and most ambitious UFO conference to be held in the UK since the tragic and untimely death of Graham Birdsall will be held in London on Saturday June 11 at the Friends Meeting House on Euston Road. I'll be speaking, along with Richard Haines, Timothy Good, Dr Vladimir Rubtsov and Dr Viktor Zhuravlev. My presentation will cover the history of the British Government's UFO Project. I'll detail some of the best cases we investigated and explain how we were drawn into looking at other strange phenomenon such as alien abductions, crop circles and cattle mutilations. Hopefully, some of the UK researchers who have expressed an interest in this in recent posts will be able to attend. Details can be found at the following link: http://www.wddty.co.uk/ufo_conference_info.asp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:26:01 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:06 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Friedman >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:46:32 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:07:54 -0300 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>Bob, >>Remember the question is not what are UFOs or are all UFOs of ET >>origin. The question is "are any?". Sure most UFOs are all sorts >>of IFOs. I don't care about them. But manufacturered high >>performance apparently metallic craft able to zoom up up and >>away sound like they weren't made here.Mother ships like in the >>Yukon case that are 0.6-1.2 miles long surely sound like they >>weren't made here. What are these other explanations? If they >>had been of earthly origin, they would have shown up in Vietnam >>or Korea. >>What are these other solutions? >>My list of IFOs is very long. >Stan, >Even some relatively staid physicists are talking about parallel >universes these days, and about ways we could slip through and >communicate with beings in them. I think that has already been >done, and that communication has been going on in both >directions for a very long time now. But I think there is much >more to it than that. >Anyone who has made a study of the Western Magickal Tradition >will at some point realize that the entities being communicated >with by magicians are identical to our little gray "friends". >Compare the drawings done by Aleister Crowley with those of >abductees and contactees. Same little dudes. Same difficulties >in understanding human concepts of time and space. Same powers >over people. >I'm not certain just exactly what is going on or what the >motives are, but I am strongly convinced that these "others" >have contacted, communicated with, abducted, experimented on, >and otherwise had dealings with humanity since before we were >humanity. I have seen no compelling evidence that they are >anything other than a natural part of the multiverse that our >universe is but one aspect of. >And it may turn out that our present concept of parallel >universes is just as removed from reality as an Australian >Aborigine's view of the universe. In fact, the Abo may be closer >than we are to understanding what is really going on behind the >veil. >A lot of ufologists, and I suspect you are in this group, Stan, >are looking for a nuts and bolts explanation. Something we can >knock up against. I'm just not sure that if we ever do know the >truth it will be something that can be squeezed into this mold. >Do I have any answers? No. I don't presume to know what is going >on. I think we need more of this attitude in the study of UFOs. >I've seen one of the bloody things, and I came away with a sense >of open-eyed wonder and an underlying terror. Most of all, a >sense of respect for something that is far beyond my >understanding to grasp. If the things and beings that are being seen visually and on radar and making physical marks, are manufactured somewhere else, then I think it matters not at all whether they get here warping space and time, controlling gravity from a parallel universe, etc etc, They are by definition of extraterrestrial (not from Earth now) origin.Our ignorance about "place" or "time
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 29 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:10:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:59:09 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - White >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:26:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >If the things and beings that are being seen visually and on >radar and making physical marks, are manufactured somewhere >else, then I think it matters not at all whether they get here >warping space and time, controlling gravity from a parallel >universe, etc etc, They are by definition of extraterrestrial >(not from Earth now) origin. Our ignorance about "place" or "time >of origin" or mode of transport has nothing to do with whether >they are from somewhere else or some time else.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:06:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >Magonia Supplement No. 56 has now been published. The main item >is an article about the Betty and Barney Hill case, by Nigel >Watson. >The html edition is available at: >http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms56.htm A quick review of Nigel Watson's article reveals a number of false and misleading claims. Just to note a few in no particular order: 1. Barney certainly did not tell me what he is quoted as saying when I met with he and Betty for hours in Pittsburgh in November 1968. 2. Neither Zeta 1 nor Zeta 2 Reticuli 2. is a double star. This false claim was made in an article in Fate Magazine by Allen Hendry based on a foot noted reference to unpublished data in an article by astronomer Dr. David Bonneau. Hendry didn't check with Bonneau. Bob Collins and I did. It was a mistake made because of a peculiarity, in the then, new technique of speckle interferometry. The peculiarity has been referred to as Mickey's ears. Neither is a double. This has been known for decades. 3. Jacques Vallee, as I wrote him, had misrepresented what Marjorie Fish had done, saying she limited her attention to only sun like stars. There are only 46 of them in the neighborhood. One of her models has 250 stars in it, of all kinds. 4. Carl Sagan also misrepresented her work. Dr. David Saunders checked on Betty's position with regard to the model and verified that the parallax of the models matched. 5. It seems strange that no reference is made to the 32 page full color booklet containing a number of articles about Ms. Fish's work (both sides) edited by Terence Dickinson, then editor of Astronomy Magazine, who published his original article about a year before the compilation. I still have copies available at $5. including S and H from me at: POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I notice no mention of the first article about this work by myself and Bobbi Ann Slate in Saga Magazine. 6. The 'wandering around the hills' explanation to account for the missing time ignores the roads in New Hampshire. Not London, crowded with streets. 7. Shouldn't the fact that the medical hypnosis sessions with Dr. Ben Simon, an outstanding expert on treating shell shock war veterans, resulted in getting rid of Barney's ulcers, have been mentioned. Normal treatment didn't take care of the problem. 8. Why quote John Keel about abductions or UFO crashes? He has never demonstrated that he has done serious investigations of either. In a long discussion, in some issues of FATE magazine, with Kevin Randle and I, Keel showed his ignorance about these and many other ufological matters. In one letter to me he managed to make 4 major false claims: a. Plutonium wasn't produced for use in nuclear weapons. It is. b. All paper used by the government in 1952 was 8" x10" rather than 8.5 by 11 (re MJ-12 Docs). Wrong. c. That Robert Goodard did his rocket research near Aztec, when it was near Roswell, 300 miles away. d. That no Jews received high level security clearances in the mid-1950s because J. Edgar Hoover was anti-semitic. (I and other Jewish scientists I worked with, received Q clearances in 1955- 1957 to work on the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program. The FBI did the clearances.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Disclosure Australia Announcement 24 From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:26:05 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:08:28 -0400 Subject: Disclosure Australia Announcement 24 Disclosure Australia Project Newsletter 23 has just been posted to: http://disclosure.freewebpage.org This issue looks at Federal Parliamentary questions and responses relevant to the topic of "Flying saucers" and "UFOs" between 1952 and 1996. There have been some very interesting statements made over that time. The Project is now moving into stages 2 & 3 of its work and there is a piece in the Newsletter about how you can help with this work. A worthwhile read. -- The Australian UFO Research Network Disclosure Project Auspiced by the Australian UFO Research Network PO Box 738, Beaudesert, Queensland 4285 http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn Secretariat: the Australian UFO Research Association PO Box 786, North Adelaide, South Australia 5006
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:11:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Friedman >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >http://tinyurl.com/789jd >09 August 2004 >Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >Sydney <snip> I am very suspicious of this article because I can't seem to find out anything about Sam Chang and any connection with the Human Genome Pproject.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Wise From: William Wise <will.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:49:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:14:04 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Wise >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:09 +0000 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Free NASA Satellite Images Of The World - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:52:46 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:17:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Free NASA Satellite Images Of The World - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:43:57 -0400 >Subject: Free NASA Satellite Images Of The World >The quote, below, is from one of my colleagues who is quite >happy with the level of detail for satellite images of his area. >If such images might help in UFO investigations, here's what he >recommends: >"I got the image from NASA's World Wind 1.3. It's free. It's >best if you have a high speed connection to the internet. It is >a large download over 100 MB you can get it here: >http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/ >"As NASA puts it: World Wind lets you zoom from satellite >altitude into any place on Earth. Leveraging Landsat satellite >imagery and Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data, World Wind >lets you experience Earth terrain in visually rich 3D, just as >if you were really there." Hi Eleanor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:22:48 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:35 +0100 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >>For instance, I have seen an undercurrent of defensiveness on >>the part of our friends 'south of the border' (not just by >>reading this List but examining documents from other sources). >>It seems that _any_ critical assessment or opinion is taken as a >>vendetta or personal attack. Surely, something is going on here. <snip> >>Or is it just the idiosyncratic behavior of individuals? <snip> >In short, if you want a to achieve a balanced picture of 'south >of the border' ufology, you need to try to read Spanish, rather >than relying on translations, as some of the best material never >seems to get translated, presumably because it doesn't tell most >ufologists what they want to hear. Dear John, James, List: From a psychosocial perspective, I too have noted similarities and differences among various cultures with respect to UFOs, UFO research, researchers and investigation. Although my point of view comes from studying military R&D and the art of deception, I have begun to wonder why certain cultures seem more vulnerable or receptive to sensationalism and yellow journalism. I suspect these tendencies are related to the basic characteristics of each culture such as religious, political, economical and educational standards. But we must also remember many UFO sources tend to be biased. As Mr. Harney pointed out, the best materials don't always make it to UFO Lists and related sources because it doesn't say what most ufologists want to hear. Lists, radio programs, web sites, magazines, newsletters, organizations, etc. based on the _existence_ of UFOs may not be the best sources of objective research because these sources "want to believe" UFOs exist and filter incoming and outgoing information accordingly. On the flip side, Lists devoted to the more skeptical side of UFO research tend to filter out information that does not support the Zeitgeist explanations according to some unspoken criteria established by majority rule. Having personally witnessed and studied both the bizarre and the mundane, I know how hard it is to understand these events. Trying to make sense of the information available can be a life- long endeavor. Not only do standards of research and investigation vary from person to person, group to group, state to state, country to country, so do the reporting standards of local and international media. While sensationalism and yellow journalism regularly make the news in many cities, states and countries, exposed hoaxes, genuine research and the truth are rarely covered. UFOs, like sex, sell while prosaic and mundane do not. So not only do we face lack of standardization in UFO research, investigation and reporting, we also face language, cultural, political and economic barriers. But the greatest obstacle, IMHO, is due to bias based on personal and group belief systems - the need to believe. People with a psychological need to believe and prove UFOs exist perceive and filter all information according to their belief systems (1). Whether it provides excitement or relief from personal fear, belief in UFOs can become intrinsic to one's concept of self and the world/universe. Taken to extremes, some people base their entire identities on the existence of UFOs and related phenomena. These extreme cases become so enmeshed in their 'UFO identities' that they stop looking for the truth because they subconsciously believe they have already found it. When confronted with alternative points of view, these enmeshed individuals experience confusion and seek conflict resolution often through intimidation and aggression or bullying. Because they feel threatened, they attack those they perceive as the source of their fears. Using every tactic from appeals for group defense to pompous ultimatums, these individuals attempt to remove what they perceive as their source of conflict never realizing the real conflict lies within their own ego needs; the need for love, affiliation and, above all, attention. Perhaps it is more of a "mixed bag" or "all of the above". Charlatans and scholars exist in all cultures. Truth and lies are translated in all languages. Every culture exhibits media and personal bias; some obvious, some subtle. Ultimately, it all boils down to the individual and how willing each person is to become an informed consumer of information. Each citizen of every country must ask themselves, in all honesty, do they want to believe or do they want the truth. (1) UFOs exist. It is the belief and promotion of UFOs as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Former UFO Investigator Captivates Listeners From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:26:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:26:44 -0400 Subject: Former UFO Investigator Captivates Listeners Source: The Barre Montpelier Times Argus - Barre, Vermont http://tinyurl.com/9srtr May 30, 2005 Close Encounters Former UFO Investigator Captivates Listeners With Extraterrestrial Tales By Carla Occaso Times Argus Staff DANVILLE =96 Those who have ever seen a strange object hovering in the late-night sky might have felt right at home at Dowser's Hall Saturday morning. Better still if they had an invisible, hairless alien came to stay as a houseguest to channel information from other galaxies. Such were the tales told by John M. Meloney of Claremont, N.H., a journalist-turned-UFO investigator, to a rapt audience of about 50 people filling the small lecture hall at the American Society of Dowsers' Danville headquarters. A well-educated, World War II veteran with years of journalism experience, Meloney spoke with great sincerity of several outer- worldly encounters =96 including some that happened here in Vermont. His motives for telling the stories seem to be to inform the public. "If something is going through the atmosphere of this planet, the people on the planet have a right to know what it is," Meloney said of his life's work that began when he started working for the National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomenon in 1966. His first brush with the topic started when he was a sports editor for the St. Petersburg Independent in Florida and a man came in, excited to report he had seen a flying saucer over the Gulf of Mexico. As a newspaperman, skepticism kicked in and the man was ignored. Today, Meloney said he wishes he had asked the man probing questions about the sighting. A few months later, Meloney moved to New Hampshire when a fateful newspaper article changed the course of his life. The article recounted an incident reported by a man traveling from White River Junction to Concord, N.H., on Route 4 before Interstate 89 was built. As the man approached Enfield, N.H., his car engine suddenly =96 and inexplicably =96 died. As the man opened the hood to look for loose wires, he heard an all- pervasive humming sound. He looked up and saw an object moving away from him. As the object disappeared, the humming sound decreased, then suddenly, the car engine spontaneously turned on. He reported the incident to the local newspaper, where Meloney read about it. Hostile letters to the editor followed, accusing the paper of sensationalism to sell newspapers. But one letter from an engineer in Detroit said the car's behavior was typical of a car involved in a flying saucer incident, and referred readers to Meloney's future employer: the National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomenon. Meloney fielded hundreds of sightings in Vermont and New Hampshire until the organization went defunct in 1968. The public stopped reporting sightings because people did not want to be considered kooks, Melony said, but he continued to study UFOs independently, keeping his own files, which he kept hiddden in Vermont. Soon after the UFO research project folded, Meloney says he began working directly for the aliens. His second wife, he said, could channel information from extraterrestrials. It started one night when she was talking in her sleep and he began conversing with her. "I realized I was talking to someone else who was using her body," he said. "She was very psychic. =85 the people who were using her to talk to me were in fact, extraterrestrials. They said we would make an excellent team to teach new arrivals on this planet." Soon, Meloney said, a series of aliens arrived at their home from distant galaxies to study the ways of earthlings. The first, he said, was a 2,000-year-old, 3-foot-tall, hairless female named Dolia, who considered herself very beautiful with webbed hands and feet of three digits each. The couple went on to contact 46 alien beings from several different planets, he said. Meloney said they were invisible to him because their vibrations were too high, but his wife could see them. Meloney recounted being questioned by FBI agents, brushes with political issues and joining the American Society of Dowsers in Danville. Meloney ended his lecture saying most aliens are friendly and people should not fear them. Many audience members shared alien stories of their own after the lecture. One woman, however, was not completely sold on the idea.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Davies Hynek & Kaku [was: Alien Message 'May Be In From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:51:25 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:34:15 -0400 Subject: Davies Hynek & Kaku [was: Alien Message 'May Be In >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >http://tinyurl.com/789jd >09 August 2004 >Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >Sydney <snip> I touch upon this in my forthcoming book, Hair Of The Alien - DNA And Other Forensic Evidence Of Alien Abduction, due July 19 2005, from Paraview Pocket Books, a division of Simon & Schuster. Paul Davies suggests that some sort of pattern (along the mathematical type code in Carl Sagan's Contact) might have been encoded in our "junk DNA". While this sounds like science fiction, particularly if we are seeking mathematical or symbolic codes, perhaps a more reasonable strategy would be to look for verifiable factors in "junk DNA" as well as unusual mutations (or polymorphisms) in our DNA, that might provide evidence of "non-Darwinian patterns" that perhaps reflect an extraterrestrial or intelligent influence - a sign of artificial evolution or intervention. My biochemical associates and I have already been looking for such things. Some intriguing areas of interest are being looked at. I briefly discuss this directly with Paul Davies during a Macquarie University post graduate open day on campus on April 12th, 2005. He indicated his "junk DNA/ET evidence" speculations were meant to be serious. He referred to Freeman Dyson as an originator of the idea. Dyson was described as a hero of his. He felt the idea was no less serious than the idea of seeking out ET "radio signals" (i.e. SETI which he agreed had not delivered any credible evidence so far) so why not try something that is far easier to do and is well within our current technology - searching for coded clues within our own DNA. I mentioned that this intersected with some work I had been focusing on and he expressed interest in seeing my book, but I wondered if this was mere tokenism, given his well known skepticism re UFOs. We discussed his acquaintance with Allen Hynek, who acknowledges his assistance in his book, The UFO Experience. Davies confirmed he regarded Hynek as a nice guy and stayed with him at his Chicago home. I told him I had done the same. Davies said he didn't think that there was anyone of Hynek's stature in the field of UFO research today. I said there were some interested researchers of note. Knowing he had endorsed Michio Kaku's new book "Parrallel Worlds", I mentioned Michio Kaku's interest in the UFO subject. He seemed unaware of this or skeptical of my statement, so I suggested he inform himself by watching the Peter Jennings' documentary, UFOs - Seeing Is Believing, which was airing on Australian television the following weekend. I alerted him to Kaku's open endorsement of serious investigation of UFOs, and said this was not the first time that Kaku had made positive comments about the subject. I also indicated that the programme would have a positive presentation of his old friend Hynek's role in the controversy. I am currently operating a blog site focusing on the issues raised in my forthcoming book, along with other matters of interest. Much of the material raised will be of interest to UFO UpDates subscribers. You can see it at: http://theozfiles.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:21:49 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:36:52 -0400 Subject: Re: New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:39:35 -0400 >Subject: New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some >Source: http://www.gewo.applet.cz/health/DNA_1e.htm >January 22, 2001 >New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some Surprises >A group of researchers working at the Human Genome Project will >be announcing soon that they made an astonishing scientific >discovery: They believe so-called non-coding sequences (97%) in >human DNA is no less than genetic code of an unknown >extraterrestrial life form. <snip> This has got to be a hoax - a late April Fool's joke... That was a fascinating article, but puzzling as well. "Junk DNA" has been tentatively renamed "Regulatory DNA" since it appears to regulate (control) gene enhancement and repression, protein transcription, and embryonic development. The so-called alu "comment symbols" ( /* and */ ) could just as easily be "control symbols" meaning "start control" and "end control" rather than start/end comment. Examples of that are probably everywhere in control systems - certainly in mainframe Job Control Language, network communication protocols, etc. That a particular cancer-causing DNA sequence is apparently missing its beginning comment symbol, could just as easily be interpreted to mean that it's missing its beginning control symbol, due to a genetic mutation which dropped the leading alu. Insert the leading alu, and you turn off the cancer-causing DNA, and probably invoke some unknown control function. Why would Prof. Chang reach the conclusion that ET's wrote a vast amount of DNA code with 97% of it commented-out, when the research is showing that "junk DNA" is regulatory in nature, and that they forgot to consider that when they named it? The only reason it was called "junk" is because it didn't code for proteins - a hasty and probably invalid assumption. But to make the leap to "DNA code written by aliens - just remove the comment symbols and become superman" seems like an incredible
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Ufology 2005 Making Ground? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:36:53 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:39:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology 2005 Making Ground? - Chalker >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:11:50 EDT >Subject: Ufology 2005 Making Ground? <snip> >I'm still waiting for more news from China. Yes I'm asking all >pals, kin, god children etc. who are there or have connections >to dig into it. Believe it or not they're telling me that there >is no subject more hot in China than UFOs!!! >I was blown over! I thought they would be wondering about HDTV >or video games, but no way. They're watching DVDs of X Files and >UFO documentaries that many of you appear in or produced. I >guess they found someone who translated them or sub- -titled >them. >Anyhow, the numbers are alarming as to how many Chinese are >getting hip to UFOlogy and have started their own UFO >investigation groups. What's extra good and a major difference >is no one would dare to invalidate or mock someone who related a >UFO story there. Reason being in that culture it's unaccepted to >berate someone like we do. In that climate of civilized respect >we've yet to achieve the researchers there are gleaning >information that dwarfs our efforts. >I think in a short while, perhaps a year on the outside the >Chinese will show just how sharp and professional they are in >the sciences and research fields on this subject. With regard to the Chinese UFO interests you might want to check out some of the posts I have made on my blog site: http://theozfiles.blogspot.com The Chinese UFO Research Organisation will be hosting an international UFO conference at Dalian in September. I hope to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:19 -0400 Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video - Kritkausky >From: Tim Davie >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:08:54 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video >>From: Rob Kritkausky >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: New Phoenix UFO Video Tim: I can answer most of your questions, below. Also, the video Jeff is refering to in the clip is interesting and has only been seen by a couple people. Here's the link: http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/josh.wmv >Could you state the location? >I know AZ pretty well and would be able to confirm your >statement. Sure, I can give you a rough idea. This is shot from North Phoenix... about as far North as you can get. The Camera is pointed due West, maybe with a dash of North thrown in. My best estimate for a surface coordinate in which the lights appear above is about 83rd Ave. and Pinnacle Peak. North and East of Luke AFB. >Yet, the video on-line is that of red/orange lights, matching the >C-130 video and pictures. Well, the grabbed frame I was working with gave me three colors... red, orange and white. >What color are flares supposed to be may I ask? If I am going to describe them as similar to flares, I would be more comfortable having the lights be at least a variation of one color. Three is a stretch, but certainly not impossible. . >Same duration. I have these lights lasting between one and five seconds. My information on decoy flares shows a 6-10 second burn duration. In comparing these duration times, "same" would not be an accurate description. IMO >Same falling trajectory as you would expect from >dropping something from a plane Please note the light configuration shows up the second time a good distance away and at about 1/3 the size. This would seem to rule out a distant object, a conventional one anyway. I really don't see a fall occurring, to me it is more consistent with travel along a south-southwest vector. It is interesting to note that these lights seem to have appeared in the exact location where one of the more mysterious lights was filmed for some 28 minutes on July 3rd. This light looked to be sucking in other objects and possibly expelling material from the bottom. http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/pullin.wmv I will be looking at this video closer next week. However, to be honest I almost did not respond to this in hopes that it would be termed "explained". I was not thrilled with the event being broadcast on the Art Bell show. Luckily, I was able to impress upon Jeff the importance of protecting the location of the site
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:14:33 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:02 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:35 +0100 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research ><snip> >So not only do we face lack of standardization in UFO >research, investigation and reporting, we also face language, >cultural, political and economic barriers. But the greatest >obstacle, IMHO, is due to bias based on personal and group >belief systems - the need to believe. People with a >psychological need to believe and prove UFOs exist perceive >and filter all information according to their belief systems >(1). Whether it provides excitement or relief from personal >fear, belief in UFOs can become intrinsic to one's concept of >self and the world/universe. Taken to extremes, some people >base their entire identities on the existence of UFOs and >related phenomena. These extreme cases become so enmeshed in >their 'UFO identities' that they stop looking for the truth >because they subconsciously believe they have already found >it. When confronted with alternative points of view, these >enmeshed individuals experience confusion and seek conflict >resolution often through intimidation and aggression or >bullying. Because they feel threatened, they attack those >they perceive as the source of their fears. Using every >tactic from appeals for group defense to pompous ultimatums, >these individuals attempt to remove what they perceive as >their source of conflict never realizing the real conflict >lies within their own ego needs; the need for love, >affiliation and, above all, attention. >Perhaps it is more of a "mixed bag" or "all of the above". >Charlatans and scholars exist in all cultures. Truth and lies >are translated in all languages. Every culture exhibits media >and personal bias; some obvious, some subtle. Ultimately, it >all boils down to the individual and how willing each person > is to become an informed consumer of information. Each >citizen of every country must ask themselves, in all honesty, >do they want to believe or do they want the truth. >(1) UFOs exist. It is the belief and promotion of UFOs as >other worldly and/or unexplainable that is being addressed. An excellent analysis Amy, but I found myself muttering, after reading the above paragraph, "So what?" I acknowledge there was no trace of censure or judgement in your observations and I'm not accusing you of such, but I would have been grateful if you had taken your analysis further and explained why so many on both sides of the "believing" fence feel a religious zeal in trying to correct the beliefs of those they feel are mistaken. To me, this is the height of supreme arrogance - as if one can straighten out the misguided philosphy of those perceived to be wrong and set them on the road to righteousness, as laid down by "me" of course. We should leave these people, from whatever perspective, alone. If we consider them ignorant, then leave them alone in their ignorance. They are happy where they are and let's face it, who really is to say they are wrong? The real giveaways for me are the constant jibes, from both sides. John's closing comment about reports, "not telling ufologists what they want to hear" speaks volumes. I have no idea if there was a "side" to James Smith's original post but it struck me as a rather lame attempt to show that he was more open minded than he is accused of being. And somewhat belatedly, I would agree with John Velez's orgiginal accusation levelled at Kyle King that there is an element of racism in much of North America's responses to south of the border UFO reports, and I detect the same strand in James Smith's comments too. It is something that our South American colleagues seem to put up with, with remarkable patience, but I guess they're used to it. And perhaps Amy, you might turn your spotlight on to the other side, towards those who are perceived to be the models of common
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Connors From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:27:54 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:50:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Connors >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 <snip> Richard Lee (Cleveland Ufology Project) had extensive audio correspondence with Marjorie Fish prior to the publication of her analysis of Betty Hill's "Star Map." Those recordings have been compiled and in Marjorie's own words and explanations on how she arrived with her conclusions of Betty's map memory. Richard's sound collection was donated to Faded Discs so that they would be available to current and future researchers and a gift of immense importance. Perhaps it would be wise for John Harney and others to listen to Ms. Fish before trying the old, "I know everything routine." Again, there is much more evidence and data than just the written word to consider. If you are interested in the Betty and Barney Hill case and the Star Map evidence, you'll find countless hours of audio dealing with the Hill's case by earlier researchers, including Marjorie Fish, on the CE IV compilation available at: www.fadeddiscs.com With all due respect, if you rely only on the written evidence without hearing from the recorded record, your research acumen can be severly limited. Like they say, get some of your
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:55:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Clark >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>Magonia Supplement No. 56 has now been published. The main item >>is an article about the Betty and Barney Hill case, by Nigel >>Watson. >A quick review of Nigel Watson's article reveals a number of >false and misleading claims. Just to note a few in no particular >order: >8. Why quote John Keel about abductions or UFO crashes? He has >never demonstrated that he has done serious investigations of >either. In a long discussion, in some issues of FATE magazine, >with Kevin Randle and I, Keel showed his ignorance about these >and many other ufological matters. In one letter to me he >managed to make 4 major false claims: Good job, Stan. It never ceases to amaze me how pelicanists will quote anybody who tells them what they want to hear, even if the individual in question is only blowing choking clouds of smoke. I realize that the competition for the title is stiff, but John Keel, whom I have known since the mid-1960s and whom - when I was young and naive - I admired, has long been a serious contender for the least credible commentator on anything ufological/Fortean. And don't get me started on his allegations about non-anomalous topics. In one example I happen to know about in particular, he went telling people that I - for whom he harbors a consuming, longstanding visceral hatred - have never been married, live with my mother, and have spent most of my adult life in mental institutions. And some British pelicanists believed him! (An even more hilarious footnote: When I wrote Keel to protest that none of the above is remotely true, he continued to insist that he was entirely correct in everything he said. In the course of this bizarre exchange, it became clear that Keel was entirely unaware that I have children.) Ignore Keel's (admittedly pretty goofy) beliefs about UFOs. Just consider his exceedingly casual relationship with facts and accuracy. For a searching profile of the real Keel, I immodestly recommend my article "Keel vs. Ufology," Fortean Times 156 (March 2002): pp. 39-42. As I wrote there: "If Keel were a humorist like Charles Fort, rather than a windmill- tilter like Tiffany Thayer, one could smile and shrug it off as an ongoing, offbeat joke. No Fortean, to my knowledge, has ever championed Fort's sky islands or Ambrose-collectors, knowing that Fort wasn't championing them, either. But Keel is deadly, gloomily, blusteringly, spittle-spewingly in earnest." As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source for a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Peruvian Air Force Conceals UFO Information From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:39:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:05:15 -0400 Subject: Peruvian Air Force Conceals UFO Information INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 30, 2005 Source: Periodico El Chino - newspaper Date: 05.27.05 PERUVIAN AIR FORCE CONCEALS UFO INFORMATION What would happen if the existence of alien life - and the fact that it lives among us - was confirmed? The answer is in the hands of the military, who possess the documents and evidence regarding UFO sightings, handled by the United States as super-secret information. The disclosure, says Mario Zegarra, a [UFO researcher] would prove that man is only a primitive creature in the face of extraterrestrial intelligence. [...] Mario Zegarra claims that the Peruvian Armed Forces, specifically its Air Force (FAP) conceal information on UFOs seen in various parts of the country, which is made known not to the national government, but to the U.S. and the agencies researching the areas where the strange craft were detected. The armed forces and senior police officials cover up the information, considering it to be top-secret. "Claiming that extraterrestrial life exists not only in other galaxies, but upon Earth itself, is a rejection of scientific theories on human evolution; in other words, the humanity's forebears are not apes, but aliens," explained ufologist Mario Zegarra. "Being a superior civilization and possessing advanced knowledge, it would dismantle U.S. power. The military itself has sighted UFOs from its craft. However, they must hold their peace, as it is classified information that is best kept from the public." The spacecraft described by the military are allegedly manufactured using a solid material that is different from materials on Earth. Zegarra adds that we are on the brink of another UFO wave as intense as those which have been occurring at periodic intervals for the last 40 years. One of the top secret documents presented by Dr. Zegarra states that on May 9, 1980, while a group of military officers from the FAP were beginning their daily formation on the Mariano Melgar air base in the La Joya district (Arequipa), they detected the presence of a UFO at the end of the runway and at a height of 1,800 feet above the surface. The object, resembling a weather balloon used for maritime navigation, was moving over the area near the airport. For this reason, Oscar Santa Mar=EDa, the pilot of one of the fighters, was given the order to take off and intercept the object. After a third pass, the pilot opened fire on the object without causing any apparent damage, moving away quickly. The second sighting has a special characteristic, as it is described as a shining object, according to a translation of the official Pentagon report, a document made available through the Freedom of Information Act and featuring the eyewitness account of Maj. Santa Maria Huertas (Ret.)'s persecution of a UFO aboard his Sukhoi Su-22. At Puerto Maldonado in 1952, customs chief Domingo Troncoso managed to photograph a UFO. The object was moving along in silence, leaving a long and dense contrail in its wake. Its estimated speed was fifteen hundred miles an hour. In 1967 another flying saucer was photographed by Augusto Arranda in Yungay, as he hiked the soaring mountains of the region. In 1966, an extraterrestrial object came in for a landing at the Talara air base. In 1979, a three-legged extraterrestrial vehicle landed in Chachapoyas. The following year a FAP interceptor pursued a UFO but was unable to reach it on account of its speed. This incident took place in the vicinity of La Joya in Arequipa. Mario Zegarra states that the persons holding the proof are the military and the intelligence services. The accounts provided by Dr. Zegarra coincide with the ones given by researcher J.J. Ben=EDtez, who states that military personnel having access to this information insist that the public is not ready to know the truth. Researchers Zegarra and Ben=EDtez claim that there have been hundreds of UFO sightings over or near military bases, atomic silos, warships, transport and combat aircraft, due to the potential for destruction they can cause. In this regard, anyone who dares disclose secret documents kept in any army, police or air base could even be "terminated".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Peruvian Politician Discusses UFO Experience From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:03:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:08:58 -0400 Subject: Peruvian Politician Discusses UFO Experience INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology May 29, 2005 Source: Periodico El Chino (newspaper) Date: 05.27.05 Politician Discusses UFO Experience Many people claim having seen UFOs in Peruvian skies. However, the authorities do not want to lend credence to these stories. But even if they insist on trying to cover the sun with a finger, the evidence of beings from other worlds is real and undeniable. This belief is shared by a man of unquestionable prestige in this country - Richard Amiel, former secretary general of the Popular Christian Party and former candidate to the mayorship of Lima, who claims having had his own UFO experience. After saying that it was "a privilege" to have seen a UFO, the noted politician stated that the existence of extraterrestrials is known to the great world powers, such as the U.S. and Russia, whose governments have looked into sightings albeit secretly. Richard Amiel, a geological engineer from the National University of Engineering and San Marcos, recalled his shocking experience in the vicinity of Alto Chicama, La Libertad, while carrying out an inspection in the company of a chauffer from the mining company he worked for in 1964. An extraterrestrial craft hovered over the Andean peak known as "Cerro Aguja". On the road to the Plains of Quruvilca, district of Santiago de Chuco, at around 7 am, Amiel witnessed to his amazement how a large UFO flew noiselessly before taking off at a speed in excess of an airplane. "I was performing a survey on coal for the construction of an thermoelectric power station when this giant vessel appeared in the midst of absolute quiet. We were only able to look at it, since were strangely unable to bring ourselves to photograph it," recalls Ariel. "I reported the situation to the manager of the company I worked for. He told me that several people had witnessed similar phenomena, but did not go public because, given the subject's controversial nature, they were afraid of being branded as madmen," said the international consultant on energy affairs. Despite the silence among high-ranking officials regarding the existence of ETs, Amiel said that he has decided to look into the subject as a result of his UFO sighting, gleaning information on the first aerospatial research endeavors conducted in Russia. "A Russian pilot informed his base from space that he was accompanied by objects that couldn't not be identified." For Richard Amiel, the apparition of these phenomena is a factor of geographic space, since they always occur in "desolate areas", such as the coal basin of Alto Chicama, a coal seam that runs from the Usquil District to Quivica, one of the richest coalbeds of the Americas.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:20:02 -0400 Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP Hello List, I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml in what started of as a thread about the British National Archives UFO Research Guide, from which the following points are still outstanding: 1. No apology from Nick in regard of the "writing out" of Clarke and Roberts from the discovery of the Flying Saucer Working Party document. I am frankly amazed and disgusted that he refuses to admit his error in the face of such convincing evidence as an email from his old department confirming that Clarke and Roberts were responsible for the discovery. See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m26-016.shtml 2. No comment on the suggested description of his level of active interest in an official capacity with respect to alien abductions, crop circles, and animal mutilations. To use one of Nick's own cliches, "I go where the evidence takes me". On the one hand, we have Nick's implications at his website and elsewhere on the web that he was actively involved in research and investigation of these. On the other hand, I have: a) A letter written by Nick (officially) to an UFO researcher declaring that during his first year in the role, he had not come across any abduction reports. b) A transcript of a TV interview of someone carrying out the same role as Nick, at the same time, stating that less than 25% of his working time was spent on UFOs. Efforts are in hand to obtain a copy of this interview, including any out-takes. c) 2 letters from the MoD (one in Nick's book, Open Skies, Closed Minds, and one to me personally) from the MoD expressing total disinterest in the phenomenon. d) Nick's own words, in The Uninvited, indicating that the extent of his official participation in the "research and investigation" of abduction cases was to file reports and console witnesses. e) In relation to animal mutilations, Nick's own words in "Open Skies, Closed Minds": "In my official capacity I had no remit to investigate mutilations at all. The link between ufology and mutilations is obscure, and little discussed outside the States.Consequently I received no mutilation reports from the public during my three years as UFO officer, and nor would I have expected to." f) In relation to crop circle research, an abortive attempt to have a soil sample analysed and some complaints from the public about military helicopters damaging crops. g) Nick's persistent use of the term "UFO project", coupled with comparison to project "Blue Book". Clearly any similarities to MoD interest in UFOs and the activities of "Blue Book" are purely superficial, yet Nick likes to make his role seem more substantial than it really was. In fact, the indications are that the department he worked for was excluded from anything of a sensitive nature, as set out in the earlier official internal documents at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%201.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%202.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joe.mcgonagle/ufo/minute%203.jpg Note that these are only available for a short duration, if the links no longer work, you can contact me for copies via email. Nick's refusal to offer any counter-evidence is a typical spin-doctor tactic. If you have been caught out, clam up and hope that it will all go away (maybe the ostriches are right). Well, instead of going away, this is going to blister out and erupt - I need to find out whether or not Nick's rendition of his role (which is totally inconsistent with available documentation and anecdotal evidence from his ante- and post- cedents) could possibly be valid. I now have to waste FoIA requests on trying to show that his version is factually exaggerated. Who knows what else that might reveal?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:19:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:21:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 - Koi >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>Magonia Supplement No. 56 has now been published. The main >>item is an article about the Betty and Barney Hill case, by >>Nigel Watson. >>The html edition is available at: >>http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms56.htm >A quick review of Nigel Watson's article reveals a number of >false and misleading claims. Just to note a few in no >particular order: <snip> >5. It seems strange that no reference is made to the 32 page >full color booklet containing a number of articles about Ms. >Fish's work (both sides) edited by Terence Dickinson, then >editor of Astronomy Magazine, who published his original >article about a year before the compilation. I still have >copies available at $5. including S and H from me at: POB >958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I notice no mention of >the first article about this work by myself and Bobbi Ann >Slate in Saga Magazine. <snip> Hi Stan, List. The text of the relevant booklet published by Astronomy Magazine is available online on various websites. Links were included in the relevant entry (1974.1200) in the short extract from an incomplete draft of a Chronology that I circulated in relation to the discussion (by Nigel Watson, Gildas Bourdais and others) in a different, recent thread relating to the Hills, Villas-Boas and science fiction. That short extract is available online at: http://tinyurl.com/9rskk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:30:11 -0400 Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob Lazar - see: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml Years ago, I subscribed to The Southwestern Oil and Gas News. The editor was and expert in oil and gas (and most other kind of) scams. He loved to quote from court documents in which swindlers revealed their techniques. Two themes that ran through many of these scams were huge audacious claims which on the face were just this side of absurd and the complete lack of respect for the poor "mark." In some cases the con-men would name their companies (or divisions of larger corporations) with such give always like REKCUS, Inc. It didn't matter to large numbers of people who were easily taken in and sent thousands of dollars to promoters of the schemes which were based on the most flimsy evidence. When Federal oil and gas leasing on wildcat Federal lands in Alaska was restored, numerous "bucket shops" acquired lands close to the Alaskan oil pipeline for $1 an acre. Using the fact that Pudhoe Bay had huge oil and gas reserves worth billions of dollars and the long pipeline which carries all the production across Alaska was close to these completely worthless leases far, far away from Pudhoe Bay production, the scammers sold the same leases for $25 an acre. The marks were told they could probably easily double, triple or get ten times their money back by turning around and selling to big oil companies. Suddenly Texaco, Chevron and others were besieged with people wanting to sell oil and gas leases up to the size of 2500 acre for huge sums of money. Of course, the oil companies were not interested. It was obvious if the leases were worth so much more than $25 an acre why didn't REKCUS sell directly to the oil companies and pocket even a larger profit? Now, when the truth starts to set in on the mark, new phone calls start to come, maybe months or even years later. The new callers tell the mark they have been taken, but their company is in the business to recover the money lost in the original scam. These new callers claim to cooperate with Federal, state, local authorities and have a battery of lawyers stands ready to take the original culprits to court, if necessary. It will just cost them $3000 to $5000 to start the recovery process. This is termed "re-loading the mark." In the 70s and 80s, California, Nevada and Florida were very friendly to bucket shops, but these guys were all over, New York, Wisconsin and Arizona quickly come to mind. Among the many crimes that could easily be identified here fraud, wire fraud, using the mails to defraud. However, Federal authorities were slow to move. So one bucket shop opens operates for awhile, they go out of business and start operating under another name or location. With cell phones there doesn't even need to be a physical location and bucket shops can easily establish post office box (suite #xxx). "Now the large amount of evidence points to the probability that Lazar is telling the truth." Dozen of websites start off with something similar to this statement. Well, let's read some of these wonderful things that Lazar was doing. Let's see he was building his own gravity amplifier, but, but, later on he says he can't remember the gravity wave frequency or even if it was in kilohertz, megahertz or gigahertz. This is so precious!! George and the I-Team didn't pick up on this! http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/lazarnovember13.htm "August 1990, George Knapp, the reporter that first broke the story, uncovered a W2 for Robert Lazar. This slip represents payments, after deductions, for five days, (non-consecutive) working at the S4 base. Lazar started at the end of December 1988. And had only been at the base five times before the new year." "Lazar noted that he had 'Majestic' clearance. "This clearance level was 48 levels above "Q" clearance." I guess in the latest reports on Lazar George and the I-Team "forgot" about Lazar's W-2. Or for a ufoological more acceptable term he "disremembered" Lazar's W-2. (Now I've received E-mails from people who have said they have "researched" UFOs for more than five or ten years. They haven't read Ruppelt or the UFO Evidence, but they can tell you about Lazar.) So recently, I have been told all about this wonderful document. See (it take a little time to load up): http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Government_Scientist.htm Department of Naval Intelligence. Isn't that just precious?! Since it is the Office of Naval Intelligence although the Canadians did (do?) have a Department of Naval Intelligence. As an Assistant Adjutant in the Army, activities within the Army do not issue W-2s to civilians. The Office of Civilian Personnel does. The same for the Navy. But now I am going to let you in on something which is more precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total truth. I had a 99 level clearance above "Q." The absolute top, top clearance. And I know there are no such things as 29, 38, 48, 51 and 67 levels above "Q." The 29th level was deleted on 15 Oct 1967, and the 38th shortly thereafter. The 48th, 51st, and 67th were never filled and are gaps in the clearance level system. The 87th level has to do exclusively with the recovery of a UFO from the American sector of the DMZ in Korea. The cover story for this operation was the pull back and deactivation of the 7th Infantry Division. These things are unbelievably complicated and difficult, and it takes thousands of people with a wide spectrum of specialities to engage in such operations. UFO operations are not run by the military, CIA, NSA NRO or any of these other military or "intelligence" type agencies. Gad! The main UFO investigations and counter actions agency is the Office of Economic Subversion (OES), an apparently small office within the Department of.... It isn't small; it is huge with resources that are unreal. Things like Area 51, Wright Field, etc., etc. are only involved on the very edge of the investigations and counter actions. Most fancy modern facilities are decoy areas and useless. Most OES facilities look like old warehouse and are located in places like Camden, New Jersey (not a real location). Enough, and that's the real truth, every word of it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:11:00 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:40:00 -0400 Subject: John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >>>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 <snip> >As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source for >a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything is >not someone I need to take seriously ever again. For a comprehensive demolition of John Keel see Alan W Sharp's article, The New Ufology, in MUFOB 4:5 December 1971. Some of us starry eyed believers weren't too happy about this at the time,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 The Lighter Side Of Ufology From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:48:49 -0400 Subject: The Lighter Side Of Ufology Ufologists are often accused of taking themselves too seriously. Personally (speaking as a non-ufologist) I find so much material by (and relating to) ufologists so amusing that I often find myself agreeing more with a remark by Edward Condon on this point: It is difficult to know how much of the UFO literature is intended to be taken seriously. The relevant remark appears in the Condon Report at page 879 of the edition available on line at the link below: http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/s5chap02.htm The range of amusing ufological material ranges across the entire spectrum of fiction to non-fiction, from the cinema to books, from the written word to cartoons, from DVDs to T-Shirts. Below I mention a few bits of material that I've found amusing in the following categories: A.1. Televisual material: Documentaries/Video/DVDs A.2. Televisual material: Cinema B.1. Fiction : Intentionally funny novels and short stories B.2. Fiction : Other (unintentionally?) Amusing Novels C.1. Non-Fiction - Intentionally Amusing Books C.2. Non-Fiction -Other (unintentially?) Amusing Books D. T-Shirts E. Bumper stickers F. Cartoons / Postcards G. Newsletters - Intentionally funny H. Hoaxes / April Fools Jokes I. Joke books: J. Poems K. Songs A.1. Televisual material: Documentaries/Video/DVDs The funniest DVD I've seen (at least the funniest one related to ufology.) is Six Days in Roswell (from the filmakers behind Trekkies). This DVD is described on the DVD commentary soundtrack as a docu-comedy, and is based on events at the 1997 UFO Expo in Roswell and features a wide variety of individuals attending events in Roswell that summary, as well as an equally wide range of products being promoted during those events. Not exactly the image of ufology that ufologists may want members of the public to have, but nonethless hilarious. For a review of this DVD see: http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?id=1356 The other funny UFO documentaries that I can recall seeing were both made by Britons. These are: (a) Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends: UFOs - I don't know if the Weird Weekend series has been shown in the USA, but one of that series is entitled UFOs (original transmission: BBC Two, 22 January 1998) and is both amusing and depressing. (b) Jon Ronson's, The Secret Rulers of the World, on the UK's Channel Four, in which the main ufological element was based on David Icke. Some of the relevant material appears in Jon Ronson's highly amusing book, Them: Adventures With Extremists, (2001), which discusses David Icke at pages 85-86 (in Chapter 2), 142-173 (in Chapter 6 generally) of the Picador hardback edition. An edited extract (relating to David Icke) from that book is available online at: http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,457988,00.html A.2. Televisual material: Cinema I think the most popular film using ufo-related comedy is, MIB (1997) starring Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones, which I doubt requires any real introduction. Whilst a number of 1950s B- movies spring to mind as featuring UFOs and being rather funny (generally because the movies or effects were so bad), I don't recall many other movies features ufos or ufologists that have been that funny. B.1. Fiction : Intentionally funny novels and short stories (a) Anyone interested in the Disclosure Project or Operation Right To Know should read Christopher Buckley's, Little Green Men, (1999), which has an entertaining take on media interaction with ufology, disclosure projects and the ufological subculture. This is definitely the funniest novel to discuss MJ-12, Betty Hill's star-map and other ufological matters. Any resemblance any character in that book has to a real-life ufologist is of course entirely intentional. (b) Rather more hit and miss is Robert J Sawyer's Illegal Alien, which tries to combine ufological humour with courtroom drama. If you like both genres, give it a try. (c) A bit rarer (at least in the UK) is a novel that Jenny Randles recommended to me, They Came From SW19, by Nigel Williams. Its humour attacks spiritualist churches as well as sky-watching ufologists. All three of these novels are available on Amazon, at the respective links below: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0060955570/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0441005926/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0571168361/ In addition, a considerable number of science fiction short stories are without mercy when it comes to parodying accounts of UFOs. Several collections of relevant stories spring to mind, including the following: (a) Aliens And UFOs, edited by Cynthia Manson and Charles Ardai; (b) Flying Saucers In Fact and Fiction, edited by Hans Stefan Santesson; (c) First Contact, edited by Martin Greenberg and Larry Segriff. B.2. Fiction: Other (unintentionally?) Amusing Novels I have to confess to enjoying trashy Sci-Fi action books. I found Nick Pope's science fiction novels (which feature several fictional ufologists and sightings) particularly fun. Those books also show that Nick is capable of taking himself less than entirely seriously. C.1. Non-Fiction - Intentionally Amusing Books Perhaps even funnier than the above novels are several intentionally amusing non-fiction books. These include: (a) Whether or not Jim Schnabel is an agent of the CIA, I found his Round in Circles (1993) and his Dark White (1994) hilarious. (b) Rather more limited in scope, but with some great photographs, is Douglas Curran's, In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of Outer Space (1985). (c) Shockingly close to an autobiography rather than being limited solely to ufology, is, Shockingly Close to the Truth! (2002) by James Moseley and Karl Pflock. Gives an insight into Gray Barker's role in ufology and the weird and wonderful aspects of this field. (d) Apart from books the entirety of which is intentionally funny, some relatively serious books contain an intentionally funny chapter or two. For example, Some Trust In Chariots!, (1973) (edited by E W Castle and B B Thiering) is generally a serious study of Von Daniken's claim but it contains an amusing chapter parodying Von Daniken's writing style (by Anonymous at pages 123-128 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled Was Santa a Spaceman) of the Bailey Bros hardback edition). C.2. Non-Fiction -Other (unintentially?) Amusing Books This heading covers many ufological books (whether by ETH proponents or ETH opponents). Apart from obvious candidates by various contactees and channellers, probably the most book I have found most amusing is Gerald Heard The Riddle of the Flying Saucers) (also published as, Is Another World Watching?). The pages containing the reasoning he gives for concluding that UFOs are saucers flown by giant bees from another planet are amongst the most amusing mateorial I've read. Apart from amusing theories, there are a considerable number of amusing (alleged) contacts, e.g.. Joe Simonton's pancakes (1961.0418) and Jean Hingley's mince pies (1979.0104). My personal favourites are the contactees claiming to have met aliens with names that are spelt differently than they sound. I've often wondered how the knowledge of the correct spelling was imparted, since few accounts of alleged contact with extraterrestrials contain explicit reference to statements by the alien visitor along the lines of And that's spelt with two 'z's, not an 's'. D. T-Shirts The Six Days in Roswell DVD mentioned above filmed a wide variety of individuals in Roswell for the 1997 event and related products, including showing T-shirts with (a) a picture of a flying saucer and the caption Ships Happen; (b) a picture an alien in a hat and the caption Illegal Alien; (c) various slogans which I could not fully make out (or at least recall at the moment). My personal favourite is a T-shirt which was discussed (I think) by Jodi Dean (1998) in her Aliens in America. The relevant T- shirt was seen at the 1997 UFO Expo in Roswell and related to the US Air Force's theory that the bodies reported at Roswell were due to sightings of crash dummies. The relevant T-shirts said: We're not dummies. E. Bumper stickers A quick search of the Internet revealed references to bumper stickers stating the following: UFOs are real, the Air Force Doesn't Exist. We May look stupid, but we're not dummies On a picture of a saucer crash: Don't drink and Fly F. Cartoons/Postcards As far as I'm aware, no-one has collected together ufological cartoons (or a list of references to them), although several of Carl Sagan's books are rich sources of ufological/SETI cartoons. There are some books of cartoons relating aliens, but the ones that I've seen had been simply by one author (rather than a collection of the most amusing material), e.g. Bill Barker's Schwa Corporation books, such as the one at the link below: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811815854/ Condon himself was the focus of some of the more amusing ufological cartoons in various newspapers and other publications. Below is a link (with thanks to Joe McGonagle) to an inactive discussion group, most of the content of which is not actually relevant to its title of UFO humour, but is noteworthy simply for its photos section (which includes a directory entitled archive, which in turn contains a directory entitled cartoons) which has several amusing cartoons: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufo_humor/ (Note: You have to click on the option to join the Group before accessing its files section.) G. Newsletters - Intentionally funny There have been several rather gossipy publications which highlight some of the absurdities within ufology (or ocassionally simply attack various ufologists). The most obvious examples are James Moseley's Saucer Smear and Andy Roberts' The Armchair Ufologist which are online respectively at the links below): http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/ http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/armchair/ More recently, Stuart Miller's publication UFO Review has had an amusing mix of cartoons, amusing articles and diverse serious articles: http://www.uforeview.net As for Colin Bennett, I'm still trying to decide whether his Combat Diaries etc are actually funny or not. H. Hoaxes / April Fools Jokes Perhaps it's a failing in my sense of humour, but I've found very few acknowledged hoaxes, probably hoaxes, and April Fools jokes within ufology to be terribly amusing. Cedris Allingham's book was less amusing than Adamski's books. Similarly, David Langford's An account of a meeting with denizens of another world : 1871 incorporating material purportedly written by William Loosley was actually rather turgid stuff. As for April fool's jokes, I found Stuart Miller 2005 effort far better than most (but depressingly similar to the sort of unsubstantiated material circulating on the Internet on days other than the first of April). I. Joke books The only joke book I have that is dedicated to UFOs and aliens is a very small (one inch by one inch) Madcap mini-book for children. The jokes are generally appallingly bad. Surely someone has collected some funnier material together? J. Poems Several ufo magazines that I've read (particularly, I think, issues from the 1960s) have featured various ufo poems. Also, several poems have featured on this List. None of them has particularly stuck in my mind. K. Songs Whilst I'm sure there are other amusing songs relating to UFOs and aliens, the one musical item that springs to mind is Roswell, The Musical (Book & Libretto by Gene Murray, Lyrics by Gene Murray and Dana Morris) presented by the Roswell Community Little Theatre during the 1997 UFO Expo. The clips of this musical shown in the Six Days in Roswell (about 1 hour 10 minutes into the DVD) suggest that this show included a few amusing parodies of US Air Force statements. Online reviews of the musical include the one at the first link below, with various photos from a performance of the musical included on the webpage at the second link below: http://weeklywire.com/ww/07-17-00/alibi_feat4.html http://www.logoschristian.org/MUSICAL/ Does anyone else have any (ufologically related) recommendations for those of us in need of a laugh?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 30 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> To: <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:26:01 -0300 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >If the things and beings that are being seen visually and on >radar and making physical marks, are manufactured somewhere >else, then I think it matters not at all whether they get here >warping space and time, controlling gravity from a parallel >universe, etc etc, They are by definition of extraterrestrial >(not from Earth now) origin.Our ignorance about "place" or "time >of origin" or mode of transport has nothing to do with whether >they are from somewhere else or some time else. I think we agree more than we disagree, Stan. I just don't think it makes sense for people to assume blindly that UFOs are the product of an advanced civilization (or civilizations) from other planets in our universe. If we accept your definition that they are not from this Earth at this time, it makes a lot more sense. Remember Col. Corso's statement that a UFO he had seen was a time machine. Now some discount Corso completely, but I don't. Beings from another time makes far more sense to me than beings from a different place, and that time could as easily be in what we perceive as past as from what we perceive as future. I believe we need to further study the implications of time in all of this. Does time even exist, or is it a human construct our minds use to try and make sense of a confusing reality? But, that the phenomena associated with UFOs are very "alien" is something that I think we can all agree on. It's just that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:00:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Rudiak >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>09 August 2004 >>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>Sydney ><snip> >I am very suspicious of this article because I can't seem to >find out anything about Sam Chang and any connection with the >Human Genome Pproject. >Has anybody found out who he is and where he works? Or is this >science fiction? Stan, Ditto. The mysterious Dr. Chang doesn't seem to exist and neither does anybody else. My BS antenna were quivering so hard when I read the article my ears nearly fell off. The source of the article seems to be Czech. I think some college student took a genetics course and decided to have a little fun. For credibility, it looks like the Czech equivalent of the Weekly World News. However, it would make a good plot for a Sci Fi movie. As I recall, Star Trek--The Next Generation had an episode along these lines, that most of the species in the galaxy had been seeded by the original intelligent species, who found themselves all alone. The clues to common origins were in our DNA. This was supposed to explain why there were so many humanoid species in the galaxy. Turns out we were distant cousins of the Romulans,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 It's Amazing! From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:52:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:09:53 -0400 Subject: It's Amazing!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:16 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:14:55 -0400 Subject: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? I'm getting lots of emails and communications by folks who are getting alarmed at recent UFO news. Something is startling them as some used to just tease and act cautious. Now they're a-barrelling in. It made me think that what if a huge story hit. Something so solid and real that it shook the felt off a Moose's antlers. Where would everyone go? Whom would they contact for news? I'm sure all your local stations and papers would contact you if you're on the circuit but what about nationally and globally? Can all of us bury the hatchet and work as a team so that each specialist can get their word in edgewise so we don't have to deal with skeptibunker nonsense? You know as well as I do something is going to break big here in the states or somewhere in the world. It's been building up. The public should get analysis from UFO researchers and scientists who can give their viewpoints fast and straight from the shoulder. Most folks will tune in to C2C and Rense and Errol but do all of you guys have an emergency back up plan so that info can be shared fast and reliably? Best to do so so we don't end up with our own blackout of info. If there is an incident and a news blackout occurs, do we have enough HAM operators to network to then fire up emails and forum posts? We need a news source battle plan as it's best to be safe than sorry.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:16:51 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:16:26 -0400 Subject: Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Pope >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:57 +0100 >Subject: The Lighter Side Of Ufology >Ufologists are often accused of taking themselves too >seriously. Personally (speaking as a non-ufologist) I find so >much material by (and relating to) ufologists so amusing that I >often find myself agreeing more with a remark by Edward Condon >on this point: <snip> >I found Nick Pope's science fiction novels (which feature >several fictional ufologists and sightings) particularly fun. >Those books also show that Nick is capable of taking himself >less than entirely seriously. Isaac, Thanks. I had great fun writing these two books, Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike: http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/books/pope.nick/thunder_child.shtml http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/books/pope.nick/lightning.shtml To my knowledge, these are the first sci-fi books ever to have required official government clearance. There's interest from a couple of production companies in turning these novels into a film or a TV series. I'll keep you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:42:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:20:09 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:11:00 +0100 >Subject: John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. 56] >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:20:59 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:20:35 +0100 >>>>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source for >>a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything is >>not someone I need to take seriously ever again. >For a comprehensive demolition of John Keel see Alan W Sharp's >article, The New Ufology, in MUFOB 4:5 December 1971. Some of us >starry eyed believers weren't too happy about this at the time, >but as is usually the case, the sceptics were right and us >believers were wrong. I believe I mentioned Sharp's article in my encyclopedia - a good piece and an exceedingly rare instance in which a skeptic has turned on Keel, whose over-the-top rhetoric is out of the pelicanist handbook even if his conclusions - ordinarily treated with tactful silence in pelicanist literature - are not. Meantime, unfortunately for pelicanists, the historical record fails to support the claim asserted in the last sentence of Rogerson's posting above. Nearly all leading ufologists in this country were critical of Keel practically from the start. Ask Dick Hall, Stan Friedman, Lou Farish, and just about any other figure who was around in the mid-to-late '60s when Keel came onto the scene. England's FSR under Bowen and Creighton championed Keel, it is true (as did a very young, very naive Jerome Clark), but in the U.S., Keel - whom ufologists soon knew all too well - was generally considered, with many good reasons, an obnoxious occultist crank. Even Jacques Vallee, who shared some broadly similar views, kept his distance. My Fortean Times piece "Keel vs. Ufology" (March 2002 issue), which documents a part of the story, opens with an amusing instance in which Keel attempted to take on a most unimpressed James McDonald. Keel's vituperative characterizations of ufologists were
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:06:37 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - White >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >Does time even exist, or is it a human construct our minds use >to try and make sense of a confusing reality? Oh, I think time exists all right, very tangibly. Chat with two people: One who has run into a bridge abutment at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:09:07 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Fleming >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell <snip> >I think we agree more than we disagree, Stan. I just don't think >it makes sense for people to assume blindly that UFOs are the >product of an advanced civilization (or civilizations) from >other planets in our universe. >If we accept your definition that they are not from this Earth >at this time, it makes a lot more sense. Remember Col. Corso's >statement that a UFO he had seen was a time machine. Now some >discount Corso completely, but I don't. Beings from another time >makes far more sense to me than beings from a different place, >and that time could as easily be in what we perceive as past as >from what we perceive as future. Traveling across interstellar distances as required by the "conventional" ETH may be extremely difficult, but it's within the theoretical boundaries of what modern science permits. Traveling backwards through time, on the other hand, seems well beyond those boundaries. Maybe it can be done (or will be done in the distant future), but some radical extensions to contemporary scientific knowledge would be required. For that reason, Ithink the Occam's razor heuristic would favor the ETH over the time-traveler hypothesis (invoking Occam's razor in support of the ETH may seem blasphemous to "skeptics" who don't like to see poor Friar William's name being taken in vain, but who really cares?) Another possibility is John Keel's "ultraterrestrial" idea. I know he bashes ufologists with as much glee and with much of the same polemics as "skeptics" do, and that some of his reports may be of dubious reliabilty. But I still find his "ultraterrestrial" notion entertaining. It would be ironic if the entity that goes by names such as "the Trickster" in Native American lore, Loki in Nordic, and Hermes in ancient Greek decided to update his schtick to modern times by appearing as a space alien to the hapless mortals he encounters. But again, I think Occam's razor cuts in favor of the ETH. UFOs may be elusive, but I doubt that Loki would ever let himself be caught by radar detectors or video cameras. While I think the ETH seems to be the most plausible explanation at present, I recognize that it isn't the only possibility. The UFO phenomenon might even ultimately turn out to be fully
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:30:30 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:12:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 >Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >Hello List, >I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml Several times I have posted comments to you, Joe, without the satisfaction of a reply. No one is required to reply. It seems to me that he did as a matter of fact. But again, I have to ask, why you don't just e-mail Nick Pope directly and have this out with him? Why are we privy to this flame war you are having with Nick over who was first? Why are you requesting that Nick apologise to Roberts and Clarke. Shouldn't they be doing that themselves? Are you their agent?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:43:34 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:11:00 +0100 >Subject: John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. 56] >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 <snip> >>As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source >>for a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything >>is not someone I need to take seriously ever again. >For a comprehensive demolition of John Keel see Alan W Sharp's >article, The New Ufology, in MUFOB 4:5 December 1971. Some of us >starry eyed believers weren't too happy about this at the time, >but as is usually the case, the sceptics were right and us >believers were wrong. >Peter Rogerson What skeptics? I don't believe Jerry is a skeptic. Re-read what he has stated above. Had I been reading Keel's stuff early on, I would have been a skeptic too. I've never been starry-eyed. There are many researchers whom are quite capable of skimming off the effluent that floats to the surface, and I suggest to you that most of them are in a better position to discern what is worthy of research and what isn't. The thing is, they look first and condemn afterward, if the case warrants it - not right
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:19:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:22:44 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:11:00 +0100 >Subject: John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. 56] >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 <snip> >>As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source >>for a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything >>is not someone I need to take seriously ever again. >For a comprehensive demolition of John Keel see Alan W Sharp's >article, The New Ufology, in MUFOB 4:5 December 1971. Some of us >starry eyed believers weren't too happy about this at the time, >but as is usually the case, the sceptics were right and us >believers were wrong. Thanks Jerry, Stan, Peter and others. Searching thru my list of sources, I found John Keel's book, Operation Trojan Horse, Putnam's Sons, NY 1970. I was never happy with it, now I'm embarrassed. Calling up my database, there are several listings coming from that source alone - thud! Needless to say, I have some work ahead of me looking for alternative sources, and/or 'reclassifying' those records. This is no fun, believe me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:28:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 >Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob >Lazar - see: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml >Years ago, I subscribed to The Southwestern Oil and Gas News. >The editor was and expert in oil and gas (and most other kind >of) scams. He loved to quote from court documents in which >swindlers revealed their techniques. >Two themes that ran through many of these scams were huge >audacious claims which on the face were just this side of absurd >and the complete lack of respect for the poor "mark." In some >cases the con-men would name their companies (or divisions of >larger corporations) with such give always like REKCUS, Inc. It >didn't matter to large numbers of people who were easily taken >in and sent thousands of dollars to promoters of the schemes >which were based on the most flimsy evidence. Aloha Jan, I'm really amused at how UFO veteran researchers are so concerned about guarding the 'unitiated' from the danger posed by the scamster, fraud, charlatan, inveterate liar, disinformationist, etc. Basically the UFO world is filled either by honest witnesses/government employees who can be trusted; and scamsters, etc., wanting to deceive a gullible public. The litmus test for deciding which of the categories someone falls into lies in providing documentation and hard evidence. If there's not sufficient documentation, then the individual is a liar. If there' no hard evidence, then its a tall tale, etc. If the person's testimony conflicts in a some way with available documentation, then they are dismissed as a fraud, etc. I think this simple bipolar UFO world constructed by UFO veterans is way off the mark. It's a children's fable designed to frighten than to enlighten. People's motivations, experiences and testimonies are far more complex. There's no easy way to deal with people's testimony from deep black projects where there's no documentation and hard evidence but it can be done if there's a desire to do so. So far, I've found no real desire by veteran UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. It's just lot's of dismissive statements and ridicule. In my view, dealing seriously with whistleblowers from classified projects is a bit too intimidating for veteran researchers. <snip> >"Now the large amount of evidence points to the probability that >Lazar is telling the truth." Dozen of websites start off with >something similar to this statement. >Well, let's read some of these wonderful things that Lazar was >doing. Let's see he was building his own gravity amplifier, but, >but, later on he says he can't remember the gravity wave >frequency or even if it was in kilohertz, megahertz or >gigahertz. This is so precious!! George and the I-Team didn't >pick up on this! >http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/lazarnovember13.htm Yes, it's true that in the interview Lazar's failed to remember the frequency of the gravity wave amplifier. He only could recall it was an odd frequency. He can be accused of having a poor memory which is very human. Let's all remember that Lazar claimed to work in a classified S4 project, not to possessing photographic memory. >"August 1990, George Knapp, the reporter that first broke the >story, uncovered a W2 for Robert Lazar. This slip represents >payments, after deductions, for five days, (non-consecutive) >working at the S4 base. Lazar started at the end of December >1988. And had only been at the base five times before the new >year." >"Lazar noted that he had 'Majestic' clearance. >"This clearance level was 48 levels above "Q" clearance." As is now widely accepted, Lazar worked at the Meson Particle Acclerator Facility while at Los Alamos where he had a Q clearance which is a standard security clearance for those working in government laboratories such as Los Alamos, Sandia, etc. Q clearance is required for contracters such as Kirk Meyers that have specific tasks at places such as Los Alamos. People typically with a minimum of a Bachelor's degrees routinely apply for Q clearance to work in government/corporate laboratories so it's not that difficult to get. See the following job desciption from Bechtel Nevada: http://tinyurl.com/bwoj2 Lazar's alleged Majestic clearance refers to a compartmented program he worked on while at S-4. The various projects at S-4 have a security clearance that is described as being rated higher than the Manhatten Project. However, it's more correct to describe these as being compartmentalized in a way that ensures that only those with the right security clearance AND a clear "need to know" have access. So Lazar could work on the propulsion system since he had Majestic Clearance, but could not work on the navigation system of the ETV since he didn't have a 'need to know'. >I guess in the latest reports on Lazar George and the I-Team >"forgot" about Lazar's W-2. Or for a ufoological more >acceptable term he "disremembered" Lazar's W-2. >(Now I've received E-mails from people who have said they have >"researched" UFOs for more than five or ten years. They haven't >read Ruppelt or the UFO Evidence, but they can tell you about >Lazar.) So recently, I have been told all about this wonderful >document. See (it take a little time to load up): > >http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Government_Scientist.htm >Department of Naval Intelligence. Isn't that just precious?! >Since it is the Office of Naval Intelligence although the >Canadians did (do?) have a Department of Naval Intelligence. As >an Assistant Adjutant in the Army, activities within the Army do >not issue W-2s to civilians. The Office of Civilian Personnel >does. The same for the Navy. Now this may be standard procedure for civilian employees working for different branches of the military, but tells us very little about how civilians contracted to work for Majestic clearance projects are paid. If the Navy has civilians contracted to work on projects requiring Majestic clearance, they would very likely create an entity that can't be traced such as the 'Department of Naval Intelligence' but is physically present on a Naval facility. In one of the URLs you sent, it mentions that "John Andrews, plastic kit division manager of the Testor Corporation, found out that the U.S. Postal Service sends mail with the zip code NIC-01, the code on Lazar's W-2 form, to Naval Intelligence command in Maryland." So while there may not be a Dept of Naval Intelligence, the zip code ensures that any correspondence gets to the right place. Do you really expect transparency when it comes to documentation of employment for civilians working on Majestic level military projects? I think confirming the zip code on the W-2 is about as far as one will get, but as always, veteran UFO researchers will point out no such entity as the Department of Naval Intelligence exists so Lazar's W-2 is a fake! Come on, let's be realistic here! >But now I am going to let you in on something which is more >precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total >truth. Ok, so now we have the ridicule factor about to be used. Why is it that veteran UFO researchers can't appreciate the seriousness of Lazar's claims and try to depict anyone defending him as taken in by a huckster. George Knapp's investigations have provided ample evidence to support Lazar's testimony. For example, Lazar's claims regarding element 115 are turning out to be very consistent with the latest scientific advances in stellar astronomy. The critique of Dr David Morgan that Stan distributed to the forum had an important deficiency in it as I pointed out in my short article: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- Comment-31.htm . Dr Morgan dismissed the idea that metals heavier than iron could be formed in stable stars, yet I was able to quickly point out to Stan and others that Dr Morgan is wrong. Yet to date, no one has acknowledged this. Metals heavier than iron can be formed in stars and this gives some plausibility to Lazar's claims concerning the formation of 115 in stars. >I had a 99 level clearance above "Q." The absolute top, top >clearance. And I know there are no such things as 29, 38, 48, >51 and 67 levels above "Q." The 29th level was deleted on 15 >Oct 1967, and the 38th shortly thereafter. The 48th, 51st, and >67th were never filled and are gaps in the clearance level >system. >The 87th level has to do exclusively with the recovery of a UFO >from the American sector of the DMZ in Korea. The cover story >for this operation was the pull back and deactivation of the 7th >Infantry Division. These things are unbelievably complicated >and difficult, and it takes thousands of people with a wide >spectrum of specialities to engage in such operations. >UFO operations are not run by the military, CIA, NSA NRO or any >of these other military or "intelligence" type agencies. Gad! >The main UFO investigations and counter actions agency is the >Office of Economic Subversion (OES), an apparently small office >within the Department of.... It isn't small; it is huge with >resources that are unreal. Things like Area 51, Wright Field, >etc., etc. are only involved on the very edge of the >investigations and counter actions. Most fancy modern facilities >are decoy areas and useless. Most OES facilities look like old >warehouse and are located in places like Camden, New Jersey (not >a real location). >Enough, and that's the real truth, every word of it. While you're obviously not persuaded by evidence supporting Lazar's testimony, I'm glad that you've finally unmasked the Office of Economic Subversion. I believe it's run out of Pine Gap Australia where the elite are waiting for a big asteroid to wipe out everything on the planet, apart from the interior of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 31 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:19:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:32:26 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:14:33 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >>Perhaps it is more of a "mixed bag" or "all of the above". >>Charlatans and scholars exist in all cultures. Truth and lies >>are translated in all languages. Every culture exhibits media >>and personal bias; some obvious, some subtle. Ultimately, it >>all boils down to the individual and how willing each person > >is to become an informed consumer of information. Each >>citizen of every country must ask themselves, in all honesty, >>do they want to believe or do they want the truth. <snip> >An excellent analysis Amy, but I found myself muttering, after >reading the above paragraph, "So what?" >I acknowledge there was no trace of censure or judgement in your >observations and I'm not accusing you of such, but I would have >been grateful if you had taken your analysis further and >explained why so many on both sides of the "believing" fence >feel a religious zeal in trying to correct the beliefs of those >they feel are mistaken. To me, this is the height of supreme >arrogance - as if one can straighten out the misguided philosphy >of those perceived to be wrong and set them on the road to >righteousness, as laid down by "me" of course. We should leave >these people, from whatever perspective, alone. If we consider >them ignorant, then leave them alone in their ignorance. They >are happy where they are and let's face it, who really is to say >they are wrong? Why do people feel the need to promote their belief systems to others? That's a good question and one I have pondered many times. After reading your question to my 20 year old daughter (going on 80), I asked her why she thought people felt such a need to convince others their way of thinking is right and any other way of thinking is wrong (she was on the debate team in high school and spends much of her waking hours debating everything under the sun). To which she replied, "Because it makes it more true. The more that believe the way you do, the more right you feel. If less people share your beliefs, you feel afraid you might be wrong and begin to question your beliefs. When you question your beliefs, you have to search harder for the truth. It's easier to get others to agree with your way of thinking than it is to search for the truth and maybe change the way you think. When others agree with your point of view it makes you feel special." I doubt there are any easy or quick answers to this question because the need to believe is different from person to person. From a psychosocial point of view, which is like zooming out from individual to group behaviors, there are similar patterns or traits that appear to correlate with belief needs observed in religions, cults as well as sociopolitical arenas across all cultures. Far beyond the UFO community, the need to believe and convert others appears to be an inherent aspect of human nature. So much so, it is one characteristic used by science to distinguish humans from animals. In reference to the need to convert others to one's way of thinking, this too is more complex than we have time or space to cover in this or subsequent posts. But let me ask you this, if people stopped debating issues, what would we learn? What would the world be like today if Hitler was allowed to continue promoting his belief that all Jews should be exterminated? Should he have just been left alone in his ignorance (or stupidity) and allowed to carry on with his philosophies? If he was happy, why interfere? What about the Heaven's Gate cult (I studied this group and have an extensive file on them including original video footage I took with their permission)? Your perspective of leaving them alone in their ignorance appears to have been exactly what happened... with disastrous consequences. At what point do we call it ignorance (lack of knowledge) or stupidity (lack of intelligence)? Ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge or being uninformed while stupidity is unable or unwilling to recognize information regardless of the content. People who believe out of ignorance merely lack adequate and valid information. People who continue to believe despite the evidence/information are either incapable or unwilling to use logic and reason. People who believe something due to lack of information often recognize truth when they finally see it. Those unable or unwilling to change their beliefs remain myopic and conflicted because, subconsciously, they know truth is just beyond their grasp. Do you believe something because it's true or is it true because you believe it? If you were wrong in your beliefs but happy, would you prefer to be left alone or would you still want the truth? >The real giveaways for me are the constant jibes, from both >sides. John's closing comment about reports, "not telling >ufologists what they want to hear" speaks volumes. I have no >idea if there was a "side" to James Smith's original post but it >struck me as a rather lame attempt to show that he was more open >minded than he is accused of being. The hardest part of searching for valid information on this or any list, is sorting the bull from the bullshi#. With all the chest thumping, snorting and vocalizations, it sometimes seems more like a jungle than a discussion forum (IMO). I'm not sure if this is due to an overabundance of testosterone or a lack of adequate progesterone but the smell of piss and antlers has reduced many amazing discussions to a substance not unlike used kitty litter (UFO community = 56% men, 44% women, Brenda Denzler, The Lure Of The Edge, University of California Press, 2001). What I don't understand is why some people are allowed to destroy healthy and productive discussions with their inane input while others would be swiftly banned for similar transgressions. There are those who maintain the status quo and those who challenge - and never clear which side is which. I often wonder if this is due to natural selection or planned erranthood. ;> >And somewhat belatedly, I would agree with John Velez's >orgiginal accusation levelled at Kyle King that there is an >element of racism in much of North America's responses to south >of the border UFO reports, and I detect the same strand in James >Smith's comments too. It is something that our South American >colleagues seem to put up with, with remarkable patience, but I >guess they're used to it. I disagree, Stuart. Instead of listening to Mr. King and discussing the issues at hand, he was attacked, berated and accused of racism. Instead of saying, "Mmmmm, perhaps we should study this." the usual distractions and finger pointing ensued. I don't care where one is from, the burden of proof is on those making the original claims. The issue remains under investigation. >And perhaps Amy, you might turn your spotlight on to the other >side, towards those who are perceived to be the models of common >sense in Ufological matters. What is their pathology? And go on, >be a devil, include yourself as well. Mmmmm, perhaps we should study this.