UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:40:19 -0400 Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira To: Linda Howe and colleagues: My comments are below. Sent to all lists and friends. Can be openly forwarded. From: "Linda Moulton Howe" <earthfiles.nul> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Inquiry from Linda Moulton Howe, Earthfiles.com, on May 30,2005 >May 30, 2005 - Memorial Day, Albuquerque, New Mexico >Dear Victor, Paula, and all, >Urandir Oliveira was invited to the CINDACTA I meeting in >Brasilia on May 20, 2005, and I interviewed him about his >perspective with the translation help of Felipe Branco for my >May 26, 2005, Earthfiles report. No. Not at all. Urandir was never invited to any meeting whatsoever and it is just another of his lies. Should you have listened to somebody else, you would know that for sure. And Urandir is not lying only to you, Linda, but also to thousand of the followers of his UFO-sect and saying that not only he was invited but that he was responsible for the disclosure taken place. Plus, in addition to his lie, Urandir has openly said that the "invitation" to him took place because of his "contacts with aliens". It is not only offending, but also insulting and a great danger to the disclosure process. Should this kind of absurd reach the military's ears, the process can be stopped at any time. By the way, the only visible effort of Urandir in the meeting was to be in the same frame of the people interviewed by the Fantastico program, in order to be seem on TV as part of the team who was received by the military. It was noticed even by some of our military hosts, who visibly showed embarrassment with his presence as someone who has been largely exposed by the media as a hoaxer. >Please explain to me why you, Gevaerd and anyone else should be >upset about a straightforward interview with a Brazil resident >who was at the Brazil Air Force meeting? I am not the only one upset. I and hundreds of other Brazilian serious UFO researchers are absolutely offended and outraged by the way you, Linda, published the story, with facts omitted and distortions. Maybe you should know that Urandir is certainly the last person in the entire Brazilian UFO Community to be asked anything about the meeting with the military, as he is the most rejected person by such community for his lies and hoaxes. Should you have asked anybody else about it, you would know that during the 14 months of hard work in our campaign to reach the disclosure, Urandir and his associates have constantly accused the movement of all sorts of things and encouraged the followers of his UFO-sect not to sign the petition, under the claim that we, the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), would only get the disclosed docs to conceal them from the public, continuing what he believes is a process of denial of the UFO Phenomena orchestrated by us and the military. Yes, in his dreams and lies. Besides all that, Linda, as a person who has absolutely no credibility in Brazil (ask anyone, ask the press), whatever he could eventually say about the meeting with the military could turn to be dangerous to the disclosure process. If you want to interview someone who can give you and to your readers legitimate info about the campaign UFOs: Freedom of Information Now and its achievement, someone who can really speak for it, I can provide a list of names and you pick anyone you want. >A prayer for more peace in this Memorial Day time, Indeed. More peace and more truth. And less lies, distortions and hoaxes. >Linda Moulton Howe >Reporter and Editor >Earthfiles.com and >Science and Environment News Contributor >Premiere Radio Networks >and Dreamland Online >P. O. Box 21843 >Albuquerque, New Mexico 87154 >Fax: 505-797-7908 A. J. Gevaerd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Rosamond From: Robert Rosamond <rivergypsy.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:13:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:46:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Rosamond Hello. I am both mildly amused, and disappointed, to note that the subject of Nick Pope and his claims, opinions and excuses for otherwise existing within ufology have now been deemed worthy of highlighting on this List as well as its regular U.K. location... which is a pity really! To suggest that the man is a burden to U.K. ufology is, quite frankly, a rather disappointing remark on the part of an otherwise astute and informed individual. What is perhaps more of a burden to the subject, is finding largely unimportant issues such as what Nick Pope said, did and claimed, being exported around the globe in the hope of finding further sympathetic audiences. Nick might well have 'larged it up' a little at times, but then he'll openly admit to the fact that he loves media attention. If that serves as the basis for a prolonged and drawn out debate within ufology, then clearly a list of like minded names would be mighty long, and little by way of actual ufology would be mentioned as a result. Nick isn't the first to 'court' the media or 'large himself up', and he sure as hell won't be the last. What he does, and does very well (and which is the point of this posting) is both present and represent a polished, articulate, sensible and informed side of ufology to the public and media alike. His ability to avoid the pitfalls of certain questions and otherwise keep an interview within the bounds of his own control works very much to ufology's, as opposed to its many and varied critics, advantage. That, to my mind anyway, represents a distinctly positive attribute for ufology rather than a burden to it...British or otherwise. I sometimes wonder if this isn't perhaps the real basis for the frequent problems a select few seem have with Nick Pope, as opposed to what he claims to have done within ufology. The evidence does, at times, appear to have no readily identifiable or rational basis beyond suggesting that this might be the case ("....so what _did_ the Romans do for us?"). I can certainly see no positive or otherwise vitally important reason for dragging this minor issue around web sites outside of Britain I find this prolonged 'Nick-picking' (sorry) rather unfortunate and somewhat unnecessary under the circumstances, and certainly not worthy of 'export' status. Regards and respect to those concerned, and this List,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:36:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:49:11 -0400 Subject: Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - Kaeser >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:16 EDT >Subject: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? >I'm getting lots of emails and communications by folks who are >getting alarmed at recent UFO news. >Something is startling them as some used to just tease and act >cautious. Now they're a-barrelling in. >It made me think that what if a huge story hit. Something so >solid and real that it shook the felt off a Moose's antlers. >Where would everyone go? Whom would they contact for news? <snip> >We need a news source battle plan as it's best to be safe than >sorry. Hi Greg, Good luck on getting any sort of common goal or purpose going in the event of some sort of "flap". I think you'll find that the existing barriers that exist in this genre will strengthen and most will interpret the event in their own way. Unless, of course, the event is fully defined and then they may or may not havea lot to say. Just FYI, there are many listings used by the media for specialized contacts in a variety of fields, including ufology. I believe that the major UFO research groups have gotten their contact information included so the media won't be left scratching it's head and trying to figure out who to call. Of course, I suspect the media will be concentrating on the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:37:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:51:07 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:35 +0100 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:14:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >Anyone who looks at some of the more sober Latin American UFO >web sites will see that there are a number of people who submit >UFO reports to critical examination, and who expose the various >UFO scams and hoaxes. I have mainly seen the less sober ones. I shall try to look for the more critical ones. >In short, if you want a to achieve a balanced picture of 'south >of the border' ufology, you need to try to read Spanish, rather >than relying on translations, as some of the best material never >seems to get translated, presumably because it doesn't tell most >ufologists what they want to hear. Yes, language is a bother. Although I think it makes little difference if "fleets" is in Spanish or English, the same connotation is there. But what was more to the point I was trying to get at is whether there is some general antagonism toward UFO researchers specifically in countries in Central and South America. I know the military and government has (at least in the past) been likely similar in attitude toward the UFO phenomena as the US (although I assumed they might be more threatening). But are there other groups in those countries that have it "out" for the UFO researchers there (more so than in the US and elsewhere)? I was wondering if this continued harassment by these agents was creating a certain sensitivity in UFO researchers there. These effects could be observed in Asian and African countries.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:43:08 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:52:13 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Frison >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:42:08 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >I believe I mentioned Sharp's article in my encyclopedia - a >good piece and an exceedingly rare instance in which a skeptic >has turned on Keel, whose over-the-top rhetoric is out of the >pelicanist handbook even if his conclusions - ordinarily treated >with tactful silence in pelicanist literature - are not. Speak of the devil! I never really paid much attention to Keel... being aware of him but not paying attention to very much done by him. But two weekends ago, a friend gave me a brand new copy of Keel's "The Mothman Prophecies" which he started but could only read a couple of chapters of. I read, "This is a work of fiction. All the characters and events portrayed in this book are either products of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously" on the title page and this was enough for me to stick it in the book shelve where it's sat ever since. In several other books, however, such as Colin Wilson's "Alien Dawn," I keep coming across the above-mentioned events as being put across as real events. I never really had much of an interest in the 'mothman case' - knowing of the alleged events (from works other than Keel's) - but never really looking into it. What's everyone's take on "The MothmanProphecies" book - should I move it into my science fiction book collection? As I said, it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Hamilton From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:51:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:02:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Hamilton >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 -0700 >Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>>09 August 2004 >>>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>Sydney >><snip> >>I am very suspicious of this article because I can't seem to >>find out anything about Sam Chang and any connection with the >>Human Genome Pproject. >>Has anybody found out who he is and where he works? Or is this >>science fiction? >Stan, >Ditto. The mysterious Dr. Chang doesn't seem to exist and >neither does anybody else. My BS antenna were quivering so hard >when I read the article my ears nearly fell off. >The source of the article seems to be Czech. I think some >college student took a genetics course and decided to have a >little fun. For credibility, it looks like the Czech equivalent >of the Weekly World News. >However, it would make a good plot for a Sci Fi movie. As I >recall, Star Trek--The Next Generation had an episode along >these lines, that most of the species in the galaxy had been >seeded by the original intelligent species, who found themselves >all alone. The clues to common origins were in our DNA. This was >supposed to explain why there were so many humanoid species in >the galaxy. Turns out we were distant cousins of the Romulans, >the Klingons, etc. (shudder) Whew! Maybe you think this belongs in a Weekly World News, but should we say world renowned theoretical physicist Paul Davies belongs in the same rag? He states, "Alien message 'may be in our DNA' Sydney 09 August 2004 09:03 Forget waiting for ET to call - the most likely place to find an alien message is in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia. Professor Paul Davies, from the Australian Centre for Astrobiology at Macquarie University in Sydney, believes a cosmic greeting card could have been left in every human cell. More at: http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished - Rosamond From: Robert Rosamond <rivergypsy.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:56:45 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:06:30 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Rosamond Hi. So on the basis that John Keel's book(s) are now a source of embarrassment to ufology (or certainly least, to some ufologists), what prey tell, do we now consider to be worthy of consideration? Can I suggest that the constant critical slaughtering of all and sundry who fail to conform to the self nominated 'trend setters' views and opinions are in fact proving to be the embarrassment....not former icons who laid the foundations for what limited understanding We have to date! These people have given one hell of a portion of their lives to ufology and the paranormal, and in doing so inspired others to get involved. They laid the foundations upon which later ufologists have supposedly both built and learned. Their pay-off it would seem, is to read of how they now 'embarrass' the new breed of cynical, self opinionated and largely ignorant ufologist. John Keel and those of his era tried to pass on a baton. They now find their thanks wrapped around that same baton that our latest 'iconic' hero's have thrown through their windows! Somewhere along the way, I (and probably many others) obviously failed to notice what currently represents the 'in' opinion as dictated by these self appointed arbiters of what is or isn't worthy. At the rate they're all proceeding, there won't be a ufological subject left to arbitrate much longer... they'll have collectively opinionated all of us right out of a pass-time!! So, as I asked at the start of this epistle, if J.K's material so offends the current ufological (or elements of) 'massive', exactly what are we all supposed to consider as worthy material to ponder, study, investigate or otherwise recognize? Would the same panel of leading lights and pace setters like to try something constructive for a change and tell us lesser informed mortals exactly how we should all proceed instead of how we shouldn't, because without this expert guidance, we're all clearly floundering in an ocean of ignorance and feckless understanding aren't we? A lot of folk won't like these remarks, and to be honest... that's just too bad. If the same amount of energy was invested in the subject as opposed to bad mouthing or otherwise slaughtering others on ufological based Lists and web sites like this, then we'd probably be a hell of a lot further forward than we currently
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Jaems Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:01:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:08:09 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:14:33 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >The real giveaways for me are the constant jibes, from both >sides. John's closing comment about reports, "not telling >ufologists what they want to hear" speaks volumes. I have no >idea if there was a "side" to James Smith's original post but it >struck me as a rather lame attempt to show that he was more open >minded than he is accused of being. Lame attempt? Look at it from my perspective. A.J. asks me to look at the fleet video and give him an opinion. I do and I get attacked (not by A.J.). And it escalates. And nothing I say is acceptable for one reason or another. It cannot possibly be balloons! No way!. It doesn't really matter to me. But the anger and hostility against me is alarming. So, after some thinking and re-reading of Velez's posts and other postings not directed at me but which seem to have the same message and I wonder if I am being too US-centered and wonder if there may be some cultural-specific effect that could be the cause of this excessive anger. If there is no such effect, then I really must assume its simply personal and I should not cut people slack because of the nation and culture they grew up in and live in. >And somewhat belatedly, I would agree with John Velez's >orgiginal accusation levelled at Kyle King that there is an >element of racism in much of North America's responses to >south of the border UFO reports, and I detect the same >strand in James Smith's comments too. It is something that >our South American >colleagues seem to put up with, with remarkable patience, but I >guess they're used to it. This is exactly the thing I am talking about. Is there real racism going on or just sensitivity from being picked on by the US? I admit to making remarks about "the UFO story playing well on Telemundo". But I could just as easily say it would play well on Fox. The fact is that bringing up Telemundo may be a slam against that media outlet's content, but it is not a slam against the "culture" or nations down there. Exactly what is required to not affect the senstivities? Simply allow them to tell their story and nod? Don't offer critical comments? Do we apply these same generous rules to reports in the US? The other thing I wonder about is whether it really is racism to assume that nations with lower levels of education, wealth are less reliable UFO reporting or researching countries than those
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:08:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:09:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Pope >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 >Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: <snip> Joe, I replied politely to all questions asked, both on and off List. I answered your questions about the British Government's UFO Project several times. As for debates over who got what documents first, I'll take no further part in dogfights between ufologists on such issues. I'm with Don Ledger on this. The thread's a waste of bandwidth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Space-Time [was: The End of SETI As We Know It?] From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:13:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:11:39 -0400 Subject: Space-Time [was: The End of SETI As We Know It?] >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:08 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >Oh, I think time exists all right, very tangibly. >Chat with two people: One who has run into a bridge abutment at >5 mph, and one who has run into a bridge abutment at 75 mph. See >if there is any difference in their stories of the experience. There are some very serious physicists who have put forth theories in which time does not exist. I believe it was Discover magazine that devoted an issue to this topic a couple of years ago. Fascinating reading. Personally, I think Einstein was right about time and space being just two aspects of the same thing, space-time. My personal belief is that both future and past are not fixed, but subject to flux. Everything we do creates waves in time, and, like ripples in a pond, those ripples go in all directions. "Forward", "backward", sideways, etc. It is the limitations of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:18:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:13:14 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >From a psychosocial perspective, I too have noted >similarities and differences among various cultures >with respect to UFOs, UFO research, researchers >and investigation. <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:17:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:16:19 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Dickenson >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:19:55 -0700 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:11:00 +0100 >>Subject: John Keel Demolished [was: Magonia Supplement No. 56] >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:55:56 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 56 >>>As far as I am concerned, anybody who cites Keel as a source >>>for a credible factual claim or logical argument about anything >>>is not someone I need to take seriously ever again. >Searching thru my list of sources, I found John Keel's book, >Operation Trojan Horse, Putnam's Sons, NY 1970. I was never >happy with it, now I'm embarrassed. Hello all, That's fair enough as a character judgment maybe, or as view of hard, nut-and-bolts reporting, but have learnt not to damn everything from a person due to earlier or later follies. Some possible takes: 1) some strong 'mediums' or 'apporters' have been known to occasionally cheat "because it's easier" - which doesn't erase _all_ results; 2) an individual may for a time be very well-attuned to psychological state of large numbers of people (like, national psyche), as a result can appear to foretell events - or alternatively to rig money-making hoaxes; 3) 'trickster' mode - ironically Keel himself warned "This is the tiger behind the door" (~ Trojan Horse") - whereby a person seems to be granted special knowledge or forecasting ability, but is led to a final false / ridiculous prophecy. Larry's got to discriminate sharply (he reports hard-sightings) but general observers of the UFO scene might well follow Dr Jacques Vall=E9e - "this is a complex phenomenon, we don't understand it. It is real and the solution is not to worship it or to blindly follow anybody who pretends to have an answer. Let's step back and look at what it's doing to us" Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:32:58 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Ledger >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>To: ><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 >-0700 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>>09 August 2004 >>>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' Sydney >><snip> >>I am very suspicious of this article because I can't seem to find >>out anything about Sam Chang and any connection with the Human >>Genome Pproject. >>Has anybody found out who he is and where he works? Or is this >>science fiction? >Ditto. The mysterious Dr. Chang doesn't seem to exist and neither >does anybody else. My BS antenna were quivering so hard when I read >the article my ears nearly fell off. <snip> Dave, Stan, What about this press article below from August of last year referencing an article by Prof. Paul Davies in New scientist Magazine of Aug.7,2004 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Dmg18324595.300 Only part of the article is available, you have to pay for the whole thing from the mag. Ther press article is at: http://tinyurl.com/789jd Don Ledger =09 ----- International Alien message 'may be in our DNA' Sydney=09 09 August 2004 09:03 Forget waiting for ET to call -- the most likely place to find an alien message is in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia. Professor Paul Davies, from the Australian Centre for Astrobiology at Macquarie University in Sydney, believes a cosmic greeting card could have been left in every human cell. The coded message would only be discovered once the human race had the technology to read and understand it. Writing in New Scientist magazine, Davies said the idea should be considered seriously. For more than 40 years astronomers have been sweeping the skies with radio telescopes hoping to catch a signal from an alien civilisation. So far the search has been in vain. But Davies believes it is wrong to assume that extraterrestrials who may be hundreds of millions of years ahead of us technologically will have chosen to communicate by radio. Leaving artefacts for humans to find once they are sufficiently evolved - like the obelisk in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey -- might be a more attractive strategy, he said. But ensuring the survival of such an artefact over possibly millions of years would be difficult. A better solution would be to incorporate information into the human genome, allowing it to be copied and maintained over immense periods of time. One way to do this might be to deliver alien viruses which could infect cells with message-laden DNA, said Davies. Scientists have recently discovered large sequences of "junk" DNA that contain no genes and appears to be very stable. "If ET has put a message into terrestrial organisms, this is surely where to look," said Davies. A computer could be used to find obvious attention-grabbing patterns within these stretches of DNA, he said. If a sequence of junk units of DNA were displayed as an array of pixels on a screen and produced a simple image "the presumption of tampering would be inescapable". The DNA code was easily big enough to contain a decent-sized novel or a potted history of the rise and fall of an alien civilisation. Davies added: "Trying to second-guess alien communication
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: It's Amazing! - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:41:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:22:56 -0400 Subject: Re: It's Amazing! - Ledger >From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:52:14 -0300 >Subject: It's Amazing! >"A Glorious Moment In The History Of Mankind" --Yahweh He also thinks highly of himself. Note the biblical use of the name Yahweh. According to the Catholic Encylopedia at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08329a.htm Jehovah (Yahweh) The proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it the name by excellence, the great name, the only name, the glorious and terrible name, the hidden and mysterious name, the name of the substance, the proper name, and most frequently shem hammephorash, i.e. the explicit or the separated name, though the precise meaning of this last expression is a matter of discussion (cf. Buxtorf, "Lexicon", Basle, 1639, col. 2432
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:47:55 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:24:45 -0400 Subject: Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Ledger >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:57 +0100 >Subject: The Lighter Side Of Ufology >Ufologists are often accused of taking themselves too seriously. >Personally (speaking as a non-ufologist) I find so much material by >(and relating to) ufologists so amusing that I often find myself >agreeing more with a remark by Edward Condon on this point: >It is difficult to know how much of the UFO literature is intended to >be taken seriously. >The relevant remark appears in the Condon Report at page 879 of the >edition available on line at the link below: >http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/s5chap02.htm You are absolutely right, Isaac, you couldn't take Condon seriously - at least where his contribution to the report was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Time-Space [was: The End of SETI As We Know From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:50:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:26:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Time-Space [was: The End of SETI As We Know >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:08 -0400 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? ><snip> >>Does time even exist, or is it a human construct our minds use >>to try and make sense of a confusing reality? >Oh, I think time exists all right, very tangibly. >Chat with two people: One who has run into a bridge abutment at >5 mph, and one who has run into a bridge abutment at 75 mph. See >if there is any difference in their stories of the experience. Right Eleanor There are indications that "time" is not a dimension but an always-changing "grip" on protonic matter. [go "Isn't time a dimension?" in Google] Which may mean non-protonic stuff or energy-fields (maybe even `conscious' ones) could be free to "move" in time or even exist throughout all time - to our confusion, since we're more or less stuck with the protonic view. Just shows how limited our present knowledge is.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Secrecy News -- 05/31/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:59:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:29:18 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/31/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 51 May 31, 2005 ** COSTS OF SECRECY SKYROCKET ** DOD WARNS AGAINST IMPROPER USE OF NOFORN CAVEAT ** DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY PURSUES ONLINE JOURNALIST ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS COSTS OF SECRECY SKYROCKET Executive branch agencies spent an unprecedented $7.2 billion to secure classified information last year, according to a new report from the Information Security Oversight Office. This was an 11 percent increase over the preceding year. An additional $823 million was spent to protect classified information held in industry for a total of more than $8 billion. Among the major drivers for the sharp escalation in costs, the ISOO report said, were ongoing construction of new Sensitive Compartmented Information Facilities (SCIFs), secure communications systems, and new Continuity of Operations sites. The $7.2 billion figure represented the costs incurred by 41 executive branch agencies, including intelligence agencies other than the CIA, which considers its costs classified. A copy of the 2004 Report on Cost Estimates for Security Classification Activities is available here (PDF): http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/2004costs.pdf or from the ISOO web site here: http://www.archives.gov/isoo/reports/2004_cost_report.html DOD WARNS AGAINST IMPROPER USE OF NOFORN CAVEAT As practiced in the Bush Administration, official secrecy not only diminishes American democracy but also interferes with the national security it is supposed to protect. "Incorrect use of the 'NOFORN' [i.e., not releasable to foreign nationals] caveat has impeded the sharing of classified national defense information with allies and coalition partners," wrote Stephen A. Cambone, Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, in a recent memorandum to senior Pentagon officials. Lacking a theory for why officials incorrectly employ the NOFORN caveat, Mr. Cambone could only say, in effect, "don't do it." He reiterated existing policy as follows: "NOFORN shall not be applied to non-intelligence information except for Naval Nuclear Propulsion Information and the National Disclosure Policy document (NDP-1) [on classified military information]. There is no other DoD-authorized use of the NOFORN marking on non- intelligence information." A copy of Mr. Cambone's May 17 memo on "Use of the 'Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals' (NOFORN) Caveat on Department of Defense (DoD) Information" was obtained by Secrecy News and is available here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/noforn051705.pdf DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY PURSUES ONLINE JOURNALIST After journalist Bill Conroy wrote a story in the online publication Narco News concerning a memo that had been leaked to him from the Department of Homeland Security, the Department sent two agents to his home and to his workplace, where they pressed him to identify his source. In an apparent attempt at intimidation, they also approached his employer after he declined to cooperate. The encounter was described in "Customs Cops Visit Bill Conroy with an Attack on Press Freedom" by Al Giordano, May 24: http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2005/5/24/222740/305 The original story, "Homeland Security memo reveals terrorism records are being sanitized" by Bill Conroy, April 7, is here: http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2005/4/7/232329/3516 The story includes a link to the leaked DHS memo, which is unclassified but not authorized for public release. SELECTED CRS REPORTS Recent reports from the Congressional Research Service include: "Cuba and the State Sponsors of Terrorism List," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32251.pdf "U.S.-EU Cooperation Against Terrorism," updated April 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RS22030.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished [was: The End of SETI As From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:32:38 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished [was: The End of SETI As >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell >Another possibility is John Keel's "ultraterrestrial" idea. I >know he bashes ufologists with as much glee and with much of the >same polemics as "skeptics" do, and that some of his reports may >be of dubious reliabilty. But I still find his >"ultraterrestrial" notion entertaining. Lan, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on "ultraterrestrials," unless you think - and I'm sure you don't - that demonology is a productive approach to UFO (or any other) study. As Keel stated openly on a number of occasions, in case readers couldn't have figured it out themselves, ultraterrestrials are demons by another name. In any event, the idea was hardly original to Keel. He got his theories, though without giving him due credit, from Trevor James Constable, who was writing from exactly the same perspective (albeit without the over-the-top polemics) years before Keel appeared on the scene. See, for example, his series of articles for FSR (under the by- line "Trevor James") between 1959 and 1961 as well as the book
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 22 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:07:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:35:58 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 22 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 22 June 1, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ UFOs SIGHTED IN FRANCE On Saturday, May 14, 2005, four people were outdoors in Avignon, a city in southern France, when they saw three luminous objects in the sky, approaching from the southwest. "It must have been 10:15 p.m., and we were going out," an eyewitness reported, "All four of us went out to get some air. Our gaze was directed at three luminous objects in the shape of a very circular moon, coming in from the southwest. The three objects were moving quite fast, without emitting noise. The approximate distance between us and the phenomenon was 200 meters (660 feet)." The UFOs "then drew together like a triangle and seemed to get near each other as if flying together. Our encounter did not last more than five seconds before they disappeared out of our field of vision, heading towards the northeast." The eyewitness, who described himself as "a geologist by vocation," added, "All three of these mysterious objects followed the fault line which goes beneath our (Avignon) area, running from southwest to northeast for a distance of 20 kilometers (12 miles)." On Monday, May 2, 2005, a spherical orange UFO appeared over Bondoufle, a town in the Essone region of France. The eyewitness reported, "My encounter lasted not more than 15 seconds. It happened sometime between 11:25 and 11:35 p.m. I saw a round object, the colour of an orange streetlight. There was a slight luminous trail behind it, of a curious blue-orange colour." "We were returning home with my father after a concert in Paris. Just before coming to a stop sign, we saw a strange orange star in the sky. But this object was three times the size of a normal star. As we came to a complete stop, the object dipped behind a tree. So I asked my father to drive back a little bit. But by then the object had completely disappeared...in two seconds." (See Ufologie for May 23, 2005. Merci beaucoup a Robert Fischer pour ces nouvelles.) GOAT MUTILATIONS REPORTED NEAR SAN LUIS, ARGENTINA One hundred small goats were found dead and strangely mutilated on a farm near El Suyuque, a small town in the west-central province of San Luis in Argentina. On Wednesday, April 13, 2005, Lorenzo Villegas, "a resident of the town of Los Membrillos" in San Luis province, told the research group Planeta UFO "that some 'little goats' belonging to a friend of his from the town of El Suyuque" had been killed and mutilated. "This friend expressed a significant loss to his goat herd--100 animals had been found dead under mysterious circumstances." "'These are people who come from another world, other planets, who are conducting experiments with the organs they're removing from the animals,' Villegas quoted his friend as saying. Villegas also reported his own UFO sighting in the same area. "Some time ago, while returning from a birthday party on muleback, I came to the river, which is not massive (deep--J.T.) but very wide. That's when I heard a buzzing sound coming from downriver, just like the sound made by Deutz Tractor turbines. That surprised me, since it was four o'clock in the morning at the time, and there are neither houses nor anything else in this place. I spurred the mule and, in mid-river, with about 30 meters (97 feet) left to reach the opposite bank, the buzzing sound became louder and louder, like a strong wind. I looked and saw amidst the darkness three large luminous plate-shaped objects which were hovering up ahead, lighting up everything as bright as day. The mule got spooked, and I jumped off, landing flat in the shallow water. The plate-shaped objects continued upriver, as if looking for something." "Sr. Antonio Contreras, a neighbor of mine, remarked that the locals complained that their dogs wouldn't let them sleep a wink, since they were barking all night. When he went outside, he saw three large luminous objects shaped like plates." "I didn't tell anyone, since I was afraid they'd laugh at me. But sometime later, while checking out my mule, I was astounded to see physical evidence" along the river, "some incredible marks on the soil on a side road in the swamp belonging to the Los Chanares Wilderness Area. The marks seemed to indicate that the ground had been burned. It took me some time to measure them. All three of the marks measured 4 by 5 meters each and they weren't together. Rather, they were separated some 5 to 8 meters from each other. That's when I realized that they had been made by the objects I'd seen over the river." (See Planeta UFO for May 27, 2005. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Guillermo Gimenez para estas noticias.) UFO PHOTOGRAPHED NORTH OF MEXICO CITY On Friday, May 20, 2005, at 7:48 p.m., eyewitnesses on the ground in Colonia Acueducto de Guadalupe, a suburb north of Mexico City, saw a silvery UFO that appeared to be flying "at a very high altitude." One of the onlookers had a digital Marca Mustek camera and began snapping photographs. The resulting photos "showed the object high over Cerro de Chiquihite (hill), where there have been numerous UFO sightings previously. Also at the top of the hill are several TV and radio towers." Observers kept the UFO in sight for several minutes. (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Ana Luisa Cid Fernandes para estas noticias.) FAST UFO FLYBY IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO On Friday, May 27, 2005, at 8:30 p.m., eyewitness J.H. was outdoors at his home in Mount Forest, Ontario province, Canada when he spotted something unusual in the sky. "It was a really bright object, flying from east to west at a high altitude," he reported, "There was a luminous trail behind it, a red long light. The UFO was spinning, too. As near as I can make out, the object itself was octagonal. The colour was a dull silver. It kept going up and down as it flew along. I would estimate its speed at 75 kilometers per hour. The object departed to the west." Mount Forest, Ont. (population 4,530) is on Provincial Highway 89, located about 60 miles (100 kilometers) northwest of Toronto, Canada's largest city. (Email Form Report) UFO REPORT LEADS TO INDIANA DRUG ARRESTS "The report of an unidentified flying object over Union County (Indiana) early today (Friday, May 27, 2005) resulted in the arrest of two Connersville men on a variety of drug charges." "Union County Sheriff's Department officials said Deputy Dale Dishmund was responding to a report of a UFO over U.S. (Route) 27 south near Clifford Road when he came upon a suspicious car near Pottershop Road at about 1:35 a.m." "Three fishermen, who had spent part of Thursday night (May 26, 2005) fishing in Brockville Lake off the Treatyline Ramp, reported the UFO." "Dishmund stopped to investigate and found that the vehicle's passenger, Harold Williams, 29, of Connersville was wanted on a warrant in Wayne County," Indiana. "When he ran (checked out--J.T.) the license plates, Dishmund found them to be fictitious. He brought in a drug-sniffing dog and found 42 grams of cocaine, an amount of marijuana and drug paraphenalia." "Williams and Douglas Keegan, 32, of Connersville were arrested and face preliminary charges of possession of cocaine, a class C felony; dealing cocaine, a class A felony; possession of marijuana, a class D felony; and possession of paraphenalia, a class A misdemeanor." "Police said the cocaine had a street value of around $4,000." "The pair remain in Wayne County jail." (See the Liberty, Ind. Pal-Item for May 27, 2005, "Report of UFO leads to drug arrests." Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International for this newspaper article.) SEVERAL UFOs SIGHTED IN OLMSTED FALLS, OHIO "Ohio is home to some of the most unusual UFO sightings in the country. The strange sightings don't end in the night sky; they also lurk in the woods and lakes of northeastern Ohio, NewsChannel 5's Paul Kiska reported." "Kiska reported that police were left stunned by some of the reports, and the videos of the UFO sightings can be chilling to even skeptics. And Ohio has the second highest number of reported UFO sightings" in the USA. "Last week, Olmsted Falls (population 7,962) police officers took notice after receiving calls from area residents who saw strange green and red lights moving across the night sky. Police later learned that a new blimp from Akron Goodyear was being tested, but that there were no sightings reported between Akron (population 217,074) and Olmsted Falls, Kiska reported." "NewsChannel 5's photographer, Tim Dean, has seen a UFO. He shared his story from the summer of 1984." "'It was just hovering in the sky, and, whew, it took off--gone!" Dean said, 'It still gives me the chills today just telling the story.'" "Even Bigfoot and Sasquatch sightings have been reported from Chardon (population 5,156) to Niles (population 20,932). One of the most well-known sightings took place in the Cuyahoga Valley National Forest a few years ago. Several motorists reported seeing a large hairy creature with human-like features crossing Interstate (Highway) 271." (See the NewsChannel 5 of Cleveland news broadcast for May 26, 2005. Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International, for the broadcast transcript.) WOMAN SPOTS A UFO IN CENTRAL VIRGINIA On Friday, May 20, 2005, at 11:30 p.m., Joyce Naranja was walking her dog around the neighborhood in Cumberland County, Virginia (population 9,018) when she saw a strange light in the sky. "It was a clear night, full moon, not a single cloud in the sky," Joyce reported, "I was walking my dog and watching what I thought was an airplane. It was moving westward in a straight line. Then it started moving in a weird up-and-down motion, like a fish trying to swim upstream. It then dropped behind a huge star. I kept looking for it to reappear, but it never did. The whole thing lasted maybe 20 seconds or so." Cumberland County is located 60 miles (100 kilometers) due west of Richmond, the state capital. (Email Form Report) VOYAGER I REACHES EDGE OF THE SOLAR SYSTEM "After a storied 28-year odyssey, NASA's venerable Voyager I spacecraft appears to have reached the edge of the solar system, a turbulent zone of near-nothingness where the solar wind begins to give way to interstellar space in a cosmic cataclysm known as 'termination shock,' scientists said Tuesday," May 24, 2005. "'This is an historic step in Voyager's race,' said California Institute of Technology physicist Edward Stone, the mission's chief scientist since Voyager I and its twin, Voyager 2, were launched in the summer of 1977. 'We have a totally new region of space to explore, and it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.'" "Stone said project scientists, working from models of a phenomenon never before directly observed, finally agreed that data from Voyager I's tiny 80-kilobyte computer memory showed that the spacecraft had passed through the 'heliosheath,' a frontier of unknown thickness that defines the (solar system's) border with interstellar space." "Stamatios Krimigis, another longtime Voyager scientist, said in a telephone interview that the spacecraft may remain in the heliosheath for perhaps ten years but should easily survive, going dark only when its plutonium power source finally expires around 2020." "Of far greater concern to scientists was the possibility that NASA could kill the $4.2 million-a-year project to free up money for President (George W.) Bush's initiative to send humans back to the moon and eventually to Mars." "NASA has put Voyager's fate on hold while independent reviewers evaluate the mission, with a decision expected in February 2006." "Stone presented the Voyager data during a telephone news conference at the 2005 Joint Assembly in New Orleans, a joint meeting of the American Geophysical Union, the North American Benthological Society, the Society of Exploration Geophysicists and the Solar Physics Division of the American Astronomical Society." "Voyager's 'design mission' to Jupiter and Saturn lasted five years, then simply kept on going. Voyager 2 flew by Uranus and Neptune to complete a 'grand tour' of the major planets and is now about 7 billion miles from the sun, traveling at 63,000 miles per hour." "Voyager I broke away from the tour at Saturn and headed for interstellar space. When it entered the heliosheath, it was 8.7 billion miles away--the farthest any man-made object has ever traveled. Its speed is 46,000 miles per hour." (See the Duluth, Minn. News- Tribune for May 25, 2005, "Voyager I ventures to edge of solar system," page 7A.) From the UFO Files... 1962: DWELLERS ON TWO WORLDS Many science fiction authors have had curious encounters with the paranormal, but none quite as unusual as those of Philip K. Dick (1928-1982), long a fan favorite who, in recent years, has finally been coming into his own with the general public. "On December 16, 1928, in Chicago, Dorothy Kindred Dick gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl. The babies were six weeks premature and very underweight. Unaware that she was not producing enough milk for both infants, and because no one--neither a family member nor a doctor-- suggested to her that she supplement their diet with formula, Dorothy undernourished the twins during the first weeks of their lives." "On January 26, 1929, the baby girl, whom her parents had named Jane, died. She was buried in the cemetery in her father's hometown of Fort Morgan, Colorado. The little boy survived. His parents had his name, Philip, engraved alongside Jane's on the headstone; under his name, next to the dash that followed the date of birth he shared with his sister, a blank space was left." "Not long afterwards, the Dicks moved to California." "In Dorothy's case, the grief reaction was pronounced. In the first months of Phil's life, she kept a journal on his growth and behavior that testified to her love for the baby and nowhere focuses upon the death of the twin. But Dorothy's enduring anguish shows clearly in letters and conversations over the years dwelling on Jane's death and her role in it." But, for her twin brother Phil, Jane just wouldn't stay dead. "In his grade school years, Phil invented an imaginary playmate," a mysterious dark-haired girl who appeared repeatedly in his teenaged fiction. His imaginary playmate was a comfort "because he knew of Jane and yearned for her to be there, and if that seems strange--how could what had happened at his birth affect him so?--it can be corroborated by the testimony of anybody who has lost a twin." Phil's father, Joseph Edgar Dick, was originally from southwestern Pennsylvania. He had enlisted in the U.S. Army in 1916 and served throughout World War I. Afterwards, in 1920, he married Dorothy, put himself through school and got a job with the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Phil "was five when his parents separated and divorced" in 1933. Five years later, Dorothy took her son to San Francisco, where she "took a job in the U.S. Forestry Department office located on the Berkeley campus of the University of California...A feminist and pacifist, a tireless proponent of progressive ideas, Dorothy blossomed in this academic enclave in which one could be both an office worker and a women's rights activist." "Phil had asthma and episodes of tachycardia, and he took full advantage of his conditions to miss school at every opportunity. Even when she could tell he was faking symptoms, Dorothy," herself plagued by ill health, "played along and let him stay home." It didn't affect his academic performance. Phil was an A and B student all through school and, at an age when his classmates were reading the Hardy Boys or Don Winslow of the Navy, he was reading Immanuel Kant, William Burroughs, the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita and Finnegan's Wake. Phil "loved to tell the story of how he discovered SF: 'I was twelve (in 1940) when I read my first sf magazine...it was called Stirring Science Stories and ran, I think, four issues. The editor was Don Wollheim, who later on (in 1954--J.T.) bought my first novel...and many since. I came across the magazine quite by accident; I was actually looking for Popular Science. I was most amazed. Stories about science? At once I recognized the magic I had found, in earlier times, in the Oz books...this magic now coupled not with magic wands but with science...In any case, my view became magic equals science and science (of the future) equals magic...'" "He collected illustrated magazines with titles like Astounding! and Amazing! and Unknown! and these periodicals, in the guise of serious scientific discussion, introduced him to lost continents, haunted pyramids, ships that vanished mysteriously in the Sargasso Sea (now known as the Bermuda Triangle --J.T.). But he also read stories by Edgar Allan Poe and H.P. Lovecraft, the recluse from Providence, Rhode Island, whose protagonists face abominations too monstrous for them to name or even describe." (Editor's Comment: Reading Lovecraft, eh? Poor Phil. In no time at all, like my friend Terry says, he'll be "slip-sliding down the toboggan slope of bass-ackward evolution.") "From time to time, Phil saw his father, who had remarried and settled in Pasadena, where he worked for the (U.S.) Department of Commerce and became a regular on a local radio program called This is Your Government." (Editor's Comment: A radio show called This Is Your Government!? Man, that's scarier than anything Phil ever wrote!) In 1944, at age 16, Phil had his first paranormal experience. "Phil began having a recurring dream in which he found himself in a bookstore trying to locate an issue of Astounding! that would complete his collection. The rare, indeed, priceless issue contained a story entitled 'The Empire Never Ended' that, if only he could get his hands on it, would reveal the secrets of the universe to him." "The first time he had the dream he awoke just as he had worked his way down to the bottom of a pile of old magazines he was sure contained the prized issue. He waited anxiously for the dream to recur, and whenever it did he found the pile of magazines exactly as he had left it. Again he started rummaging through. With each recurrence of the dream, the pile became smaller and smaller, but he always awoke before he could get to the bottom of it." "He spent days reciting the story's title to himself, until he could no longer distinguish it from the sound of blood beating in his ears when he had a fever. He could see the letters that formed the words of the title; he could picture the cover illustration. The illustration worried him, even though--or because--he couldn't quite bring it into focus." "Over the course of weeks, Phil's desire to find the magazine turned into anxiety that he might actually do so. He knew that if he read 'The Empire Never Ended' the world's secrets would be revealed, but he also understood the danger of such knowledge. He had read it in Lovecraft: if we knew everything, we would go mad with terror." "Eventually, Phil began to see his dream as a diabolical trap. The buried issue was lying in wait, ready to devour him whole. Instead of tearing through the pile of magazines as he had at first, Phil tried to slow his fingers as they pulled one magazine after another from the pile, bringing him closer and closer to the final horror. He became afraid to fall asleep." "Then, for no apparent reason, he stopped having the dream. He awaited its return, first nervously, then impatiently; at the end of two weeks, he would have given anything for the dream to come back." (Editor's Note: Eventually, it did--over 30 years later, in 1977. But that's another story.) Phil wondered if he had some sort of psychic link to his dead sister. Or, even more amazingly, what if Jane were still alive and well and living in another world, a parallel universe containing a "twin" of our Earth? On "our" Earth, Jane Charlotte Dick had died on January 26, 1929, and Phil was the surviving twin. But what if things were reversed on that "other" Earth? What if Phil was the one who had died in 1929? What if there was another Jane living over there at right this moment, a dark-haired teenaged girl with the same interests in typing, reading and listening to music? What would that Earth be like? The idea simmered as Phil matured as a popular sci-fi writer in the 1950s. By 1957, he was contributing one short story per month to five different magazines. Finally, in 1962, the idea found expression in what Phil intended to be his first "mainstream" novel--The Man in the High Castle. In the "alternate history" of Castle, "after their final crushing victory over the Allies in 1947, the Axis powers divided up the world between them. The Third Reich has Europe, Africa and that portion of America east of the Rocky Mountains, while Japan rules Asia, the Pacific and America's western states. Chancellor Martin Bormann continues his predecessor's policies, turning an appreciable percentage of the Reich's subject populations into bars of soap and the African continent into...well, no one knows for sure, and no one really wants to know. The populations ruled by Japan, on the other hand, bear a more humane yoke of oppression--no concentration camps, no police terror." The setting is San Francisco, and the heroine is Juliana Frink--a thinly-disguised grown-up version of Phil's sister Jane. Indeed, "Juliana" even has the same job Phil had in the late 1940s and early 1950s, managing an antique store in the city with a sizable jazz collection. "There is, however, another text that exceeds even the I Ching in plot prominence--The Grasshopper Lies Heavy, a novel-within-a-novel in which the Allies, not the Axis, prevailed" in World War II. "In this twist, Phil was influenced by Ward Moore's (1953) novel, Bring the Jubilee, in which the South has won the (American) Civil War." "So threatening is its premise that Grasshopper is banned," and sci-fi writer Hawthorne Abendsen, the author, is forced to go into hiding in Cheyenne, Wyoming to avoid the Gestapo, which now operates on a global basis. Strange things start happening when Juliana finds a weird silver triangle pendant in her store. People begin slipping from her Earth into our world, as Phil chillingly describes in the case of Japanese official Nobosuke Tagomi. "Sitting on a bench in a public park in San Francisco, Tagomi distractedly takes a piece of (Juliana's) jewelry, a silver triangle, out of his pocket, and begins to rub it, then examine it. The silver catches the sun's rays." "Tagomi leaves the park, lost in thought. He tries to hail a bicycle taxi--a 'pedicab'--and is surprised to find none around. On reaching the waterfront, he is amazed by the spectacle before him: a gigantic swath of concrete stretches as far as the eye can see along the edge of the bay. It looks like a midway ride on a monstrous scale, swarming with strange-looking vehicles. He has passed here on any number of occasions and never seen this futuristic-looking structure that must have taken months, perhaps years, to build. He shuts his eyes and opens them again, but the apparition remains. In a panic, he stops a passerby and asks him to explain what this monstrosity before them is. The man's reply, that Tagomi is looking at the Embarcadero Freeway, fills him with confusion and dismay." "He goes into a coffee shop to seek solace, but the lunch counter is full, and none of the people there--all Caucasians--will give up their seats for him, even though as a Japanese" and an Occupation official "he should be shown more deference. He feels as if the earth is giving way under his feet. What nightmare has he fallen into?" Moments later, the silver triangle twinkles again, and Tagomi is returned to his familiar San Francisco, with its rickshaws, tea houses, geishas, miniature electronic devices, pedestrians and off-duty Japanese soldiers. The Man in the High Castle turned out to be a home run for Phil, winning him the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 1963 and launching him into the front rank of American science fiction authors. Phil passed away on March 2, 1982. His father "Edgar Dick, very old now, came to retrieve his son's body and took it to Fort Morgan, Colorado, where Phil's gravesite had been waiting for him for fifty-three years. Only the date of his death needed to be engraved on the stone. When Phil was laid next to Jane, the old man, who until then had shown no emotion, saw the tiny coffin again and burst into sobs." Ever wonder what happened to the "other" Jane? Maybe we should pop over to that alternate Earth and have a look at the Neue Amsterdammer Zeitung for September 11, 1983. SCI-FI AUTHOR KILLED IN BRONX CAR CRASH Jane C. Dick, two-time winner of the Hugo Award for science fiction, was killed yesterday afternoon when her rental car collided with a speeding fuel truck. Ms. Dick, 54, of Berkely, Cal. was in New Amsterdam to accept a Hugo Award--her second--at the Convention of Fantasy and Science Fiction Writers. She was on her way to the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan when the mishap occurred. She was awarded the 1983 Hugo Award for her novel Tranquillity Base, in which a team of American spacemen land on the moon and make contact with humanoid extraterrestrials. She received her first Hugo Award twenty years ago, in 1963, for The Sixth of June, a novel about a "parallel Earth" in which the Allies won the Second World War. Tranquillity Base was the long-awaited sequel. Ms. Dick was born in Chicago on December 16, 1928, the daughter of J. Edgar and the late Dorothy (Kindred) Dick. She grew up in the San Francisco area and graduated from the University of California at Berkeley in 1950. She published her first story in Incredible Space Stories while still an undergraduate. She published seven novels and 400 short stories during her lifetime. In 1953, she married fellow sci-fi author Hannes Bok, and they had three children. The couple divorced in 1969, two years before Bok's death. She is survived by her father and her three children. According to police, the fuel truck suffered a front- tire blowout and swerved into Ms. Dick's lane. Upon impact, the truck pushed the wrecked car into an intersection and struck another vehicle operated by Guadalupe Lopez of Blackrock Avenue, the Bronx. Mrs. Lopez and two of her daughters, Leslie and Lynda, escaped the blaze, police said, but a third daughter was killed. Police identified the fatality as Jennifer Lynn Lopez, 13, a student at the Preston Academy for Girls. Jennifer was on the school's track team, posting personal best times of 2:28 in the 800-meter run and 4:49 in the 1,500-meter race. She is survived by her mother, her sisters and her father, David Lopez. A Traffic Division investigation of the mishap is continuing. Like Phil himself said, "If you don't like this world, you should see some of the others." (See I Am Alive and You Are Dead: A Journey into the Mind of Philip K. Dick by Emmanuel Carrere, Metropolitan Books, Henry Holt & Company, New York, N.Y., 2004, pages 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 66 and 67; and Divine Invasions: A Life of Philip K. Dick by Lawrence Sutin, Harmony Books, Crown Publishers Inc., New York, N.Y., 1989, pages 2, 3, 9, 10, 22, 23, 24, 25, 31, 35, 46, 109 through 118.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO, Fortean and paranomal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Davies Hynek & Kaku - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:58:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:38:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Davies Hynek & Kaku - Maccabee >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:51:25 +1000 >Subject: Davies Hynek & Kaku [was: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA'] >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>09 August 2004 >>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>Sydney <snip> >I touch upon this in my forthcoming book, Hair Of The Alien - >DNA And Other Forensic Evidence Of Alien Abduction, due July >19 2005, from Paraview Pocket Books, a division of Simon & >Schuster. >Paul Davies suggests that some sort of pattern (along the >mathematical type code in Carl Sagan's Contact) might have been >encoded in our "junk DNA". While this sounds like science >fiction, particularly if we are seeking mathematical or symbolic >codes, perhaps a more reasonable strategy would be to look for >verifiable factors in "junk DNA" as well as unusual mutations >(or polymorphisms) in our DNA, that might provide evidence of >"non-Darwinian patterns" that perhaps reflect an >extraterrestrial or intelligent influence - a sign of artificial >evolution or intervention. My biochemical associates and I have >already been looking for such things. Some intriguing areas of >interest are being looked at. I recall that when I first learned there was "junk DNA" many years ago it occurred to me that it would be "neat" to write a story in which a scientist secretly decodes the junk and finds a message. The message is: "When you can read this the end is near." Then the scientist had to decide whether or not to tell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:40:07 -0400 Subject: Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - White >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:16 EDT >Subject: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? <snip> >We need a news source battle plan as it's best to be safe than >sorry. While some members of this List have belittled them, one of the best ways to get any Earth-shaking news out fast, past the mainstream media censors, is by way of the U.S. Patriot Movement broadcasters. They have a very substantial network of outlets and a very well informed listenership. There are also many ham radio operators (myself included) among their listeners. I maintain contact info for a fairly large cross section of them here in two places: http://www.raven1.net/patriotradio.htm http://www.multistalkervictims.org/patriotradio.htm These folks are normally reluctant to include UFO news on their shows, however, if you can provide them reasonable assurance that what you are reporting is probably true and has major implications for freedom and public safety, I'm confident they will respond and help out. They have international shortwave feeds (50,000 to 100,000 watts), internet audio (and a few video) feeds, satellite radio feeds, hundreds of microbroadcasters (once called "pirate radio stations") around mainly the U.S. The larger shows also have some degree of audience on a few AM and FM stations around the U.S. I include Jeff Rense with the Patriots. (I won't debate here their sometimes dubious opinions, because their news extraction services from wire services, military newspapers, the foreign press, FOIAs, and especially their many whistleblower guests make their programs worth listening to _regardless_ of their opinions. For the record, I disagree strongly with about half of their personal opinions.) And they are _not_ "the militia." The Patriots believe in restoring freedom and exposing government crime only by way of public education. The broadcasters express the opinion that only an informed public can successfully carry out the work of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:23:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:44:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:30:30 -0300 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 >>Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>Hello List, >>I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml >Several times I have posted comments to you, Joe, without the >satisfaction of a reply. No one is required to reply. It seems >to me that he did as a matter of fact. >But again, I have to ask, why you don't just e-mail Nick Pope >directly and have this out with him? Why are we privy to this >flame war you are having with Nick over who was first? >Why are you requesting that Nick apologise to Roberts and >Clarke. Shouldn't they be doing that themselves? >Are you their agent? >Tired of this thread, You may have a point about being tired of this thread. But remember that we in the UK have to tolerate a lot of debates of the ins & outs of American ufology, and its long history. Much of it is very interesting, but a lot is not so interesting. Thus it may sometimes be that you guys in the US need to tolerate a bit of UK ufology in return. Certainly some of it will be of interest to some people. Perhaps you are not one of these people.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Hale From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:09:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:46:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Hale >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:30:30 -0300 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >Several times I have posted comments to you, Joe, without the >satisfaction of a reply. No one is required to reply. It seems >to me that he did as a matter of fact. >But again, I have to ask, why you don't just e-mail Nick Pope >directly and have this out with him? Why are we privy to this >flame war you are having with Nick over who was first? >Why are you requesting that Nick apologise to Roberts and >Clarke. Shouldn't they be doing that themselves? >Are you their agent? >Tired of this thread, Hi Don, One of the benefits of being 'well known' UK UFO researchers such as Clarke & Roberts, it gets you a team of admirers who are ready and willing to do their arguing for you. And well, it looks like that Mr Pope will always be an open target for those who wish to have a pop at you for the most minor of things, Such as the 'who picked up the paper first'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: The Lighter Side Of Ufology - Rutkowski >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:57 +0100 >Subject: The Lighter Side Of Ufology Isaac, A good job of categorizing ufological humor. As a ufology historian and chronicler, I'd like to add a series of comments to his overview: >A.1. Televisual material: Documentaries/Video/DVDs >The funniest DVD I've seen (at least the funniest one related to >ufology.) is Six Days in Roswell (from the filmakers behind >Trekkies). This DVD is described on the DVD commentary >soundtrack as a docu-comedy, and is based on events at the >1997 UFO Expo in Roswell and features a wide variety of >individuals attending events in Roswell that summary, as well as Six Days at Roswell is indeed funny, but for me, an even funnier film is 'Non-Abductees Anonymous', which can be easily Googled. >A.2. Televisual material: Cinema >I think the most popular film using ufo-related comedy is, MIB >(1997) starring Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones, which I doubt On this, I'd have to disagree. MIB was certainly popular, but a movie such as "Spaced Invaders" is also relevant here. I would also argue that "E.T." itself was a very funny movie. Certainly "Uforia" would also rank up there, too, and perhaps "Mars Attacks!". I compiled and posted a list of UFO movies at: http://www.geocities.com/thecynicalview/ufomovies.htm >B.1. Fiction : Intentionally funny novels and short stories >(a) Anyone interested in the Disclosure Project or Operation >Right To Know should read Christopher Buckley's, Little Green >Men, (1999), which has an entertaining take on media interaction >with ufology, disclosure projects and the ufological subculture. Or perhaps the novel, The Case of the Little Green Men,the very first novel by Mack Reynolds, the popular SF and mystery writer. Also, The Little Green Man, is the title of a short story and a collection by Edgar Wallce, published in 1929. >(b) Rather more hit and miss is Robert J Sawyer's Illegal >Alien, which tries to combine ufological humour with courtroom >drama. If you like both genres, give it a try. Yes, it's ineresting. (c) A bit rarer (at least in the UK) is a novel that Jenny Randles recommended to me, They Came From SW19, by Nigel Williams. Its humour attacks spiritualist churches as well as sky-watching ufologists. Haven't seen it. >In addition, a considerable number of science fiction short >stories are without mercy when it comes to parodying accounts >of UFOs. Several collections of relevant stories spring to >mind, including the following: >(a) Aliens And UFOs, edited by Cynthia Manson and Charles >Ardai; >(b) Flying Saucers In Fact and Fiction, edited by Hans >Stefan Santesson; >(c) First Contact, edited by Martin Greenberg and Larry >Segriff. I have all three; they're very good. >C.1. Non-Fiction - Intentionally Amusing Books >Perhaps even funnier than the above novels are several >intentionally amusing non-fiction books. These include: >(a) Whether or not Jim Schnabel is an agent of the CIA, I found >his Round in Circles (1993) and his Dark White (1994) >hilarious. That being so, I would also include Loren Coleman's, Tom Slick And The Search For The Yeti >(b) Rather more limited in scope, but with some great >photographs, is Douglas Curran's, In Advance of the Landing: >Folk Concepts of Outer Space (1985). And the documentary film based on the book would be included in the film list earlier, then. >(c) Shockingly close to an autobiography rather than being >limited solely to ufology, is, Shockingly Close to the Truth! >(2002) by James Moseley and Karl Pflock. Gives an insight into >Gray Barker's role in ufology and the weird and wonderful >aspects of this field. Absolutely! >E. Bumper stickers >A quick search of the Internet revealed references to bumper >stickers stating the following: >UFOs are real, the Air Force Doesn't Exist. >We May look stupid, but we're not dummies >On a picture of a saucer crash: Don't drink and Fly The one I have is: Just Visiting This Planet >F. Cartoons/Postcards >As far as I'm aware, no-one has collected together ufological >cartoons (or a list of references to them), although several of >Carl Sagan's books are rich sources of ufological/SETI Grant Cameron has published such a list online, at: http://www.presidentialufo.com/new_page_4.htm Also, a CD collection of UFO cartoons has been show privately at MUFON conferences and other venues. >cartoons. There are some books of cartoons relating aliens, >but the ones that I've seen had been simply by one author >(rather than a collection of the most amusing material), e.g. There are a few, and the best in my collection are: UFO-Ho-Ho by Joseph Farris Guess What's Coming to Dinner (The Extraterrestrial Survival Guide), by Scott Fivelson >G. Newsletters - Intentionally funny >There have been several rather gossipy publications which >highlight some of the absurdities within ufology (or >ocassionally simply attack various ufologists). The most >obvious examples are James Moseley's Saucer Smear and Andy >Roberts' The Armchair Ufologist which are online respectively Saucer Smear, hands down. I would also like to point out that some issues of my own "Swamp Gas Journal" are available online at: http://www.geocities.com/thecynicalview/sgj.htm and this site includes "Alien Incompetency Theory: A Unified Theory to Explain UFO Phenomena" which was published in 1996. >H. Hoaxes / April Fools Jokes >Perhaps it's a failing in my sense of humour, but I've found >very few acknowledged hoaxes, probably hoaxes, and April Fools >jokes within ufology to be terribly amusing. Cedris Allingham's One should also include "The Great Internet UFO Hoax" which occurred this Spring. >K. Songs >Whilst I'm sure there are other amusing songs relating to UFOs >and aliens, the one musical item that springs to mind is >Roswell, The Musical (Book & Libretto by Gene Murray, Lyrics >by Gene Murray and Dana Morris) presented by the Roswell >Community Little Theatre during the 1997 UFO Expo. Their Rendlesham musical is being performed this summer, I believe. And if we're talking UFO musical, we have to include
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message may be in our DNA - Cammack From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:23:57 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:56:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message may be in our DNA - Cammack >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 -0700 >Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>>09 August 2004 >>>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>Sydney <snip> Sorry, I have been travelling and missed some of this discussion. The Weekly Mail and Guardian in SA is a highly respected and progressive weekly newspaper, an emalgamation of the Guardian Weekly (UK) and the old Rand Daily Mail (which wound up during apartheid era).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:49:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:02:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 >>Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob >>Lazar - see: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml >>Years ago, I subscribed to The Southwestern Oil and Gas News. >>The editor was and expert in oil and gas (and most other kind >>of) scams. He loved to quote from court documents in which >>swindlers revealed their techniques. >>Two themes that ran through many of these scams were huge >>audacious claims which on the face were just this side of absurd >>and the complete lack of respect for the poor "mark." In some >>cases the con-men would name their companies (or divisions of >>larger corporations) with such give always like REKCUS, Inc. It >>didn't matter to large numbers of people who were easily taken >>in and sent thousands of dollars to promoters of the schemes >>which were based on the most flimsy evidence. >Aloha Jan, >I'm really amused at how UFO veteran researchers are so >concerned about guarding the 'unitiated' from the danger posed >by the scamster, fraud, charlatan, inveterate liar, >disinformationist, etc. Basically the UFO world is filled either >by honest witnesses/government employees who can be trusted; and >scamsters, etc., wanting to deceive a gullible public. The >litmus test for deciding which of the categories someone falls >into lies in providing documentation and hard evidence. If >there's not sufficient documentation, then the individual is a >liar. If there' no hard evidence, then its a tall tale, etc. Michael, you can't seem to understand that the hard evidence required is about claims by the hoaxter about himself. If he is lying about himself, why believe what he says about the so called black projects he supposedly worked on? If he can't provide evidence of his degrees,thesis, thesis advisor, military service, employment,etc than why believe him? >If >the person's testimony conflicts in a some way with available >documentation, then they are dismissed as a fraud, etc. I think >this simple bipolar UFO world constructed by UFO veterans is way >off the mark. It's a children's fable designed to frighten than >to enlighten. People's motivations, experiences and testimonies >are far more complex. There's no easy way to deal with people's >testimony from deep black projects where there's no >documentation and hard evidence but it can be done if there's a >desire to do so. Obviously you have no desire to do so. You wish to believe every so called whistleblower's testimony. That is your privilege. But I don't believe in the tooth fairy any more either. >So far, I've found no real desire by veteran >UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. That is absolute nonsense. You just don't want to listen to the evidence, about Lazar, Milton William Cooper, Michael Wolf Kruvant etc. >It's just lot's of dismissive statements and ridicule. In my >view, dealing seriously with whistleblowers from classified >projects is a bit too intimidating for veteran researchers. Try facts rather than dimissive statements and ridicule.Why would those of us who have worked on classified projects be intimidated? ><snip> >>"Now the large amount of evidence points to the probability that >>Lazar is telling the truth." Dozen of websites start off with >>something similar to this statement. >>Well, let's read some of these wonderful things that Lazar was >>doing. Let's see he was building his own gravity amplifier, but, >>but, later on he says he can't remember the gravity wave >>frequency or even if it was in kilohertz, megahertz or >>gigahertz. This is so precious!! George and the I-Team didn't >>pick up on this! >>http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/lazarnovember13.htm >Yes, it's true that in the interview Lazar's failed to remember >the frequency of the gravity wave amplifier. He only could >recall it was an odd frequency. He can be accused of having a >poor memory which is very human. Let's all remember that Lazar >claimed to work in a classified S4 project, not to possessing >photographic memory. He claimed much else like a thesis on magnetoaerodynamics... none at MIT, like degrees from MIT and Cal Tech. No evidence and plenty of evidence that he was at neither place. He named William Duxler as having taught him physics at CCal Tech. Duxler never taught at Cal Tech, but did have Bob in a class at Pierce JC while he was supposedly at MIT a continent away >>"August 1990, George Knapp, the reporter that first broke the >>story, uncovered a W2 for Robert Lazar. This slip represents >>payments, after deductions, for five days, (non-consecutive) >>working at the S4 base. Lazar started at the end of December >>1988. And had only been at the base five times before the new >>year." >>"Lazar noted that he had 'Majestic' clearance. >>"This clearance level was 48 levels above "Q" clearance." >As is now widely accepted, Lazar worked at the Meson Particle >Acclerator Facility while at Los Alamos where he had a Q >clearance which is a standard security clearance for those >working in government laboratories such as Los Alamos, Sandia, >etc. Q clearance is required for contracters such as Kirk Meyers >that have specific tasks at places such as Los Alamos. People >typically with a minimum of a Bachelor's degrees routinely apply >for Q clearance to work in government/corporate laboratories so >it's not that difficult to get. See the following job desciption >from Bechtel Nevada: >http://tinyurl.com/bwoj2 >Lazar's alleged Majestic clearance refers to a compartmented >program he worked on while at S-4. The various projects at S-4 >have a security clearance that is described as being rated >higher than the Manhatten Project. However, it's more correct to >describe these as being compartmentalized in a way that ensures >that only those with the right security clearance AND a clear >"need to know" have access. So Lazar could work on the >propulsion system since he had Majestic Clearance, but could not >work on the navigation system of the ETV since he didn't have a >'need to know'. >>I guess in the latest reports on Lazar George and the I-Team >>"forgot" about Lazar's W-2. Or for a ufoological more >>acceptable term he "disremembered" Lazar's W-2. >>(Now I've received E-mails from people who have said they have >>"researched" UFOs for more than five or ten years. They haven't >>read Ruppelt or the UFO Evidence, but they can tell you about >>Lazar.) So recently, I have been told all about this wonderful >>document. See (it take a little time to load up): >>http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Government_Scientist.htm >>Department of Naval Intelligence. Isn't that just precious?! >>Since it is the Office of Naval Intelligence although the >>Canadians did (do?) have a Department of Naval Intelligence. As >>an Assistant Adjutant in the Army, activities within the Army do >>not issue W-2s to civilians. The Office of Civilian Personnel >>does. The same for the Navy. >Now this may be standard procedure for civilian employees >working for different branches of the military, but tells us >very little about how civilians contracted to work for Majestic >clearance projects are paid. If the Navy has civilians >contracted to work on projects requiring Majestic clearance, >they would very likely create an entity that can't be traced >such as the 'Department of Naval Intelligence' but is physically >present on a Naval facility. In one of the URLs you sent, it >mentions that "John Andrews, plastic kit division manager of the >Testor Corporation, found out that the U.S. Postal Service sends >mail with the zip code NIC-01, the code on Lazar's W-2 form, to >Naval Intelligence command in Maryland." So while there may not >be a Dept of Naval Intelligence, the zip code ensures that any >correspondence gets to the right place. Do you really expect >transparency when it comes to documentation of employment for >civilians working on Majestic level military projects? I think >confirming the zip code on the W-2 is about as far as one will >get, but as always, veteran UFO researchers will point out no >such entity as the Department of Naval Intelligence exists so >Lazar's W-2 is a fake! Come on, let's be realistic here! >>But now I am going to let you in on something which is more >>precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total >>truth. >Ok, so now we have the ridicule factor about to be used. Why is >it that veteran UFO researchers can't appreciate the seriousness >of Lazar's claims and try to depict anyone defending him as >taken in by a huckster. George Knapp's investigations have >provided ample evidence to support Lazar's testimony. Sorry, that is more nonsense. Veteran researchers do appreciate the seriousness of the claims and that is why we have spent so much effort to try to verify them. They are not verified. I happen to like George Knapp. He has provided no evidence of degrees, a thesis, the existence of large quantities of a stable element 115. He has not beeen able to show that Bob would have qualified for MIT given his poor high school background (he tried) or that he worked for LANL as opposed to Kirk Meyer as noted in the phone book. >For >example, Lazar's claims regarding element 115 are turning out to >be very consistent with the latest scientific advances in >stellar astronomy. The critique of Dr David Morgan that Stan >distributed to the forum had an important deficiency in it as I >pointed out in my short article: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- >Comment-31.htm . Dr Morgan dismissed the idea that metals >heavier than iron could be formed in stable stars, yet I was >able to quickly point out to Stan and others that Dr Morgan is >wrong. You are once again mistaken. The Lead stars don't establish any abundance of elements above Lead (At. No. 82). Certainly Morgan doesn't say heavy elements above iron aren't in stars.Of course they are.He is talking of quantities of stable elements above 100 >Yet to date, no one has acknowledged this. Metals heavier >than iron can be formed in stars and this gives some >plausibility to Lazar's claims concerning the formation of 115 >in stars. >>I had a 99 level clearance above "Q." The absolute top, top >>clearance. And I know there are no such things as 29, 38, 48, >>51 and 67 levels above "Q." The 29th level was deleted on 15 >>Oct 1967, and the 38th shortly thereafter. The 48th, 51st, and >>67th were never filled and are gaps in the clearance level >>system. >>The 87th level has to do exclusively with the recovery of a UFO >>from the American sector of the DMZ in Korea. The cover story >>for this operation was the pull back and deactivation of the 7th >>Infantry Division. These things are unbelievably complicated >>and difficult, and it takes thousands of people with a wide >>spectrum of specialities to engage in such operations. >>UFO operations are not run by the military, CIA, NSA NRO or any >>of these other military or "intelligence" type agencies. Gad! >>The main UFO investigations and counter actions agency is the >>Office of Economic Subversion (OES), an apparently small office >>within the Department of.... It isn't small; it is huge with >>resources that are unreal. Things like Area 51, Wright Field, >>etc., etc. are only involved on the very edge of the >>investigations and counter actions. Most fancy modern facilities >>are decoy areas and useless. Most OES facilities look like old >>warehouse and are located in places like Camden, New Jersey (not >>a real location). >>Enough, and that's the real truth, every word of it. >While you're obviously not persuaded by evidence supporting >Lazar's testimony, There isn't any supporting his testimony about himself. >I'm glad that you've finally unmasked the >Office of Economic Subversion. I believe it's run out of Pine >Gap Australia where the elite are waiting for a big asteroid to >wipe out everything on the planet, apart from the interior of >Australia. If you watch the flight patterns of Kookaburras
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:00:48 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:07:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Friedman >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:32:58 -0300 >Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' > >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' <snip> >Dave, Stan, >What about this press article below from August of last year >referencing an article by Prof. Paul Davies in New scientist >Magazine of Aug.7,2004 >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18324595.300 >Only part of the article is available, you have to pay for the >whole thing from the mag. T>he press article is at: >http://tinyurl.com/789jd I had read the article and the current one may very well have been stimulated by it, considering the timing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: The Lighter Side of Ufology - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:36:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:09:06 -0400 Subject: Re: The Lighter Side of Ufology - Groff >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:32:00 -0500 (CDT) >Subject: Re: The Lighter Side of Ufology >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:57 +0100 >>Subject: The Lighter Side Of Ufology >Isaac, >A good job of categorizing ufological humor. >As a ufology historian and chronicler, I'd like to add a series >of comments to his overview: >>A.1. Televisual material: Documentaries/Video/DVDs >>The funniest DVD I've seen (at least the funniest one related to >>ufology.) is Six Days in Roswell (from the filmakers behind >>Trekkies). This DVD is described on the DVD commentary >>soundtrack as a docu-comedy, and is based on events at the >>1997 UFO Expo in Roswell and features a wide variety of >>individuals attending events in Roswell that summary, as well >>as >Six Days at Roswell is indeed funny, but for me, an even funnier >film is 'Non-Abductees Anonymous', which can be easily Googled. Hi Chris, Isaac, List You can view "Non-Abductees Anonymous" from my site at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:52:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:12:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >Linda Howe and colleagues: >My comments are below. Sent to all lists and friends. Can be >openly forwarded. >From: "Linda Moulton Howe" <earthfiles.nul> >Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 8:54 PM >Subject: Re: Inquiry from Linda Moulton Howe, Earthfiles.com, on May 30,2005 >>May 30, 2005 - Memorial Day, Albuquerque, New Mexico >>Dear Victor, Paula, and all, >>Urandir Oliveira was invited to the CINDACTA I meeting in >>Brasilia on May 20, 2005, and I interviewed him about his >>perspective with the translation help of Felipe Branco for my >>May 26, 2005, Earthfiles report. >No. Not at all. I also emailed LMH about her 'interview' with Oliveira. She replied with much the same. She said she didn't understand my email. Here is my reply to her: ----- Hi Linda, Let me explain. Oliveira is a fraud, hack and shyster and I can not understand your continued interest in him. There were six people invited by the Brazilian Air Force to attend the meeting. Claudeir Covo, Marco Petit, Rafael Cury, Reginaldo de Athayde, Fernando Ramalho and A. J. Gevaerd. Athayde was sick and was replaced by Roberto Affonso Beck. Oliveira's name is nowhere to be found. He was invited by whom? When? Why? So you interviewed him. You could have just as easily interviewed 67% of the Sunday night viewing audience who watched "Fantastico!". That's where he got his information. Why didn't you attempt to interview those who were actually inside and not just standing out in front of CINDACTA I headquarters having their photo op. Why didn't you even mention them in your article other then "UFO researchers". They are the ones who did all the work. Does that explain my email a little better. Thank you Terry Groff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:03:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:14:17 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:43:08 -0300 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:42:08 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished Hi, Eugene, >I never really paid much attention to Keel... being aware of him >but not paying attention to very much done by him. >But two weekends ago, a friend gave me a brand new copy of >Keel's "The Mothman Prophecies" which he started but could only >read a couple of chapters of. I read, "This is a work of >fiction. All the characters and events portrayed in this book >are either products of the author's imagination or are used >fictitiously" on the title page and this was enough for me to >stick it in the book shelve where it's sat ever since. In >several other books, however, such as Colin Wilson's "Alien >Dawn," I keep coming across the above-mentioned events as being >put across as real events. I never really had much of an >interest in the 'mothman case' - knowing of the alleged events >(from works other than Keel's) - but never really looking into >it. >What's everyone's take on "The MothmanProphecies" book - should >I move it into my science fiction book collection? As I said, it >appears to me to be a work of fiction but I just don't have >enough interest in it to read it to find out for sure. Mothman Prophecies is not a work of conscious science fiction, and I'm surprised that a publisher is describing it as such. The (alleged) events recounted therein were also covered in the local press at the time they were initially reported and also in an article in Fate magazine by an area writer. The witnesses, real people, have been interviewed by other investigators, who have added interesting new claims and insights into the curious events of the period (1966-67 in the Ohio River Valley). Keel and I were in regular contact in those days, and I have quite a file of correspondence and for-your-eyes-only reports that he sent me from Ohio and West Virginia as he was investigating. Some of the material never made it into the book. There are at least two other books written on the case, including a good one by my old friend and colleague Loren Coleman (Mothman and Other Curious Encounters [Paraview, 2002]). One story concocted by science-fiction writer Thomas Monteleone did fool Keel. Monteleone claimed contacts with aliens from the same planet as a Keel-favored contactee, Woody Derenberger (on whom the "Gordon Smallwood" character [the name itself is an inside-'50s-ufology joke] is based in the film Mothman Prophecies). Keel endorses the yarns, as well as Derenberger's own dubious ones, in his book. Monteleone later boasted that he had concocted his story, on hearing Derenberger spinning tales on a radio show, to hoax a hoaxer. An account of this episode appears in my March 2002 Fortean Times piece "Keel vs. Ufology." Amusingly and characteristically, Keel furiously denied that he'd ever been taken in, even as his words in print testify otherwise. The Mothman reports are, like so much in this world, bizarre and resistant to satisfactory explanation. As the folklorist Bill Ellis likes to say, "Weird shit happens." For all its faults, Keel's book on the subject is among the readable and entertaining in the Fortean literature. I think you'd enjoy it if you let yourself fall under its particular magic. Keel's theories are not credible, but unlike in his other books, they don't get in the way of the gosh-wow. One book that is more science fiction than journalism, however, is the late Gray Barker's The Silver Bridge (1970). Barker, a lifelong West Virginian and longtime publisher of outlandish UFO, Fortean, contactee, and other fringe materials, encouraged and even participated in various hoaxes for fun and (always
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message may be in our DNA - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:21:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:24:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message may be in our DNA - Rudiak >From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:23:57 +0200 >Subject: Re. Alien Message may be in our DNA >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:18:35 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:38:11 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:37 PM >>>>Subject: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>>Source: The Mail & Guardian - Johannesburg, South Africa >>>>http://tinyurl.com/789jd >>>>09 August 2004 >>>>Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' >>>>Sydney ><snip> >Sorry, I have been travelling and missed some of this >discussion. >The Weekly Mail and Guardian in SA is a highly respected and >progressive weekly newspaper, an emalgamation of the Guardian >Weekly (UK) and the old Rand Daily Mail (which wound up during >apartheid era). Diana, Two similar threads got run together creating the confusion. One was a serious article in the Weekly Mail and Guardian about the theory of astrobiologist Paul Davies that maybe there was an alien message in our DNA. The other was the spoof article of unknown origins in the thre thread "New Findings About "Junk DNA" May Bring Some Surprises." The given source was:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:08:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:55:37 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:23:45 +0000 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs <snip> >>>>In fact the AF was behind the Robertson Panel and forced it on >>>>the CIA. The CIA did not want a hasty small panel rushing to >>>>judgment but wanted a _permanent_ ongoing full-scale scientific >>>>study of UFOs preferably at MIT. In fact CIA/OSI tried to >>>>postpone the Panel to give more time for Battelle's statistical >>>>study but got overruled by evident AF pressure on DCI Smith. The >>>>AF had gone over the CIA's heads in the first place to the IAC >>>>and manipulated orders for a quickie panel done as fast as >>>>possible. >What do you mean the AF was behind the Robertson Panel? It was >a CIA Panel according to the entire historical record. Who >selected the soientists to serve on it? Who medrated it? Where >was it held? As I understand it (perhaps I am wrong) the instruction to the CIA to submit OSI's recommendation for a major study to yet another high-power consultant review (they'd already done this internally) was issued by an Intelligence Advisory Council overwhelmingly dominated by Defence Department interests, which means at this time basically the Air Force. I believe General Samford was probably the man ultimately responsible for the outcome of that meeting. Robertson apparently selected or at least short-listed his own Panel at Chadwell's request and although he was a CIA consultant he and all other Panel members had backgrounds in Defence Department classified projects; associate member Hynek was an Air Force consultant; Durant was working at the time as consultant to CIA/OSI but his day job was director of an Army Ordnance test range and thus an employee of DoD. It's interesting that Alvarez recalled that the meetings had been held at the Pentagon. They weren't but maybe this is revealing of where the power lay at the time. He also recalls registering surprise when he found that his expenses cheque was drawn on the private Pittsburgh bank account of a civilian and a complete stranger - he'd thought at the time he was "working for the Air Force". Maybe in a roundabout way he was. Perhaps we should make a distinction between "the CIA" as a monolithic entity and the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence? It appears to me that Chadwell's OSI and the office of the Director were not singing from the same hymnsheet, and that Bedell Smith as DCI was more aligned with the interests represented at the IAC meeting where Chadwell's push for a major research program finally hit the buffers and was shunted into a siding by the strategem of staging yet another consultant review. Brad thinks the Panel were innocent patsies set-up to fail by the Air Force; I'm not so sure of this, it depends on how you see the motivation for the trick, but that a trick was pulled on OSI I have no doubt personally. It's plain that the IAC didn't want the CIA/OSI making waves and my own opinion is that OSI were set-up and forced to stake everything on the Panel because arrangements were being made to take things in hand elsewhere in the defence-intelligence "community". Look at what happened afterwards: Not a murmur of embarrassment or dissent or apology or internal angst about having taken proposals for a major UFO program to within an inch of NSC sanction before being told not to be so silly by a few consultants. Why is this? They'd already done months of internal studies, reviewed the AF program and undertaken a review with a panel of science consultants all "leaders in their fields" and the last thing that Chadwell wanted now, it seems to me, was another "review" of the same old materials. He wanted urgent and immediate action on a new level entirely. So why did OSI completely capitulate and cave in without even an internal whisper (as far as I can see) on the basis of just another casual review of "8 cases in detail" (so much detail that they didn't even have a screen for showing the movies and had to project them on the wall!) and summaries of about 15 or so others? Look too at what the recommendations were: The main concerns about clogging intelligence channels, the false-alarm rate in the defence radar system and the possible exploitation of public credulity for psy-war purposes were just those that CIA/OSI had already identified beforehand. These had been main planks in CIA/OSI's argument for a NSC Intelligence Directive on the subject. Yet "the panel's deliberations have led CIA to conclude no directive is warranted" or words to that effect. I don't buy this. It looks to me that Chadwell must have been told in no uncertain terms what direction the wind was to blow from then on and his office went so quiet that the sound of all those dogs not barking is deafening! Perhaps the reason no directive was "warranted" was all about semantics and politics, because the type of domestic surveillance operations envisaged for CIA post-Robertson were extralegal and couldn't be enshrined in an NSCID with any deniability. My own guess is that CIA/OSI was quietly taken aside by the DCI and told to shut up because there were bigger issues at stake and they were trespassing on matters already in- hand elsewhere. I suggest that "elsewhere" was connected with the emergence of a whole new ultrasecret approach to electronic intelligence gathering and the centralisation of COMINT/COMSEC that was gestating at this time, and that the rerouting of intelligence pathways around both Blue Book _and_ CIA/OSI at about this time were part of this. From now on CIA's role would be merely foreign and domestic (illegal) surveillance - under the guise of the Robertson "education" goals - in support of a program centralised under a new deal that could not be discussed openly - even internally. The new deal was the NSA. Much of the NSA's remit was extralegal also, as had been those of AFSA and Navy intercept assets which it now technically subsumed. Robertson was the first Head of the NSA Scientific Advisory Board of course. Probably this isn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:14:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:58:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:30:30 -0300 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 >>Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml >Several times I have posted comments to you, Joe, without the >satisfaction of a reply. No one is required to reply. It seems >to me that he did as a matter of fact. Hello Don, List, I don't recall having not responded to you. If I did and it was important, I would expect you to have drawn my attention to it at the time (as I have done with Nick). If it was important to you, please point out the relevant post from you and I will either respond or explain why I didn't. Some responses that I have had from Nick so far have been either ambiguous or inconsistent. >But again, I have to ask, why you don't just e-mail Nick Pope >directly and have this out with him? Why are we privy to this >flame war you are having with Nick over who was first? I have explained the wider relevance of Nick and Georgina's actions to ufology`at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml "In the matter of who discovered the FSWP documents and secured their release, that is a matter which is pertinent to ufology as a whole. I am personally reluctant to circulate early results of any research, until it has reached a point where it can not be hijacked so that someone else gets to claim the credit for my efforts. I am not alone in this attitude, and it is hindering progress on a number of research activities in the UK." and directly to you at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m26-026.shtml "Unfortunately. the "affected listers" includes everyone who produces original research, and as such it is vital to ufology as a whole. How would you feel, Don, if having spent two years of research someone came along and claimed that you had nothing to do with the results?" and directly to you again at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m27-013.shtml "I can't speak for Martin, but this issue affects me - I have research that I would like to share openly, but as with the Hennessey article, I want it to be watertight so that no-one can write me out of the scene afterwards. It was a full year after I made contact with Hennessey that I felt comfortable with "going public" with my research. It also took me two years to find him. If I was more relaxed about sharing information, the timescales could have been drastically different." Now, if there is anything ambiguous or inconsistent in any of those posts, please elaborate on what it is that you find so. >Why are you requesting that Nick apologise to Roberts and >Clarke. Shouldn't they be doing that themselves? As should be clear from the above, this matter affects ufology as a whole and me personally. Why are you responding to this thread (that you aren't interested in), surely Nick should be doing so? Are you his agent? >Are you their agent? Certainly not, I have explained my interest in this thread. What's yours? >Tired of this thread, Then why take part? I take it that you have a standard keyboard with a <DEL> key on it? At least 50% of my inbox receives that treatment. I have a clear and unambiguous reason to take part, what's yours?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Auchettl From: John W. Auchettl - Phenomena Research Australia Melbourne= Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:21:03 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:01:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Message 'May Be In Our DNA' - Auchettl Hi Errol & List, Well I thought I would drop this pearl of wisdom into the dialogue. Did you know that all the so called "Junk DNA" is patented by an Australia well NZ born Australian who lives down the road (Melbourne). The patents (GTG U.S. Patent No. 5,851,762)[1] were held by a Dr Malcolm Simons an internationally recognised immunologist. Image: http://tinyurl.com/9hnu9 Back in the 80s the so called experts said it had no value and coined the now infamously incorrect term "Junk DNA". Simons said hang on and argued that non-coding ('Junk') DNA was important to human life and he had decoded it=85 but they laughed back with the standard insults (SOP). So he said right=85 it was his discovery, idea and research and if they were not going to listen or help then he would patent the lot. Again it=92s was laughs all round. It was just into the early days of the DNA wave so his lawyers found that he was top dog in the discovery department, thus his patent applies to something like 95 per cent of the "Junk" DNA. He sold his company, Genetic Technologies Ltd., [2] in 2000 due to ill health (Cancer). Now guess who wants the Patents killed off, you know the standard arguments [3] and rubbish that it is; not fair to business, not level field, against fair play and so on. But they were wrong and guess who had the last laugh. Best regards, John W. Auchettl REF: [1]. US patent continues until 2014 [2]. http://www.gtg.com.au/index_general.asp?menuid=3D200 [3]. Junk DNA or junk debate? http://www.findlaw.com.au/articles/default.asp?task=3Dread&id=3D10020&site= =3DCN [4]. "Junk" DNA pioneer defends patents http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/08/1057430202587.html?oneclick=3Dt= rue [5]. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s898887.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Australian UFO Reports & A Thought From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:24:40 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:08:41 -0400 Subject: Australian UFO Reports & A Thought Hi everyone Increasingly I see Australian UFO sightings being posted out on overseas e-mail Lists such as this and am wondering if possible when receiving such reports via online report forms could you please re-direct these reports back to an Australian organization for follow up and investigation? For what its worth I have been on this List for 7 years now and and have noticed a form of UFO researcher class-distinction form. What are you? A low knowledge UFO researcher A Middle knowledge UFO researcher A High knowledge UFO researcher A Head popping know it all UFO researcher Or are you someone who plainly believes in your own voice. <LOL> Sorry to say this but some have egos that balloon far beyond the boundaries of space. Aren't we _all_ looking for the same thing "answers". Well, I'd better go get me hard hat on.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:57:57 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:32:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Ledger >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:23:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:30:30 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:09 +0100 >>>Subject: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>>I note the absence of any reply from Nick to my post at: >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m25-023.shtml >>Several times I have posted comments to you, Joe, without the >>satisfaction of a reply. No one is required to reply. It seems >>to me that he did as a matter of fact. >>But again, I have to ask, why you don't just e-mail Nick Pope >>directly and have this out with him? Why are we privy to this >>flame war you are having with Nick over who was first? >>Why are you requesting that Nick apologise to Roberts and Clarke. >>Shouldn't they be doing that themselves? >>Are you their agent? >>Tired of this thread, >You may have a point about being tired of this thread. >But remember that we in the UK have to tolerate a lot of debates of the ins & outs of American ufology, and its long history. Much of it is very interesting, but a lot is not so interesting. >Thus it may sometimes be that you guys in the US need to tolerate a bit of UK ufology in return. Certainly some of it will be of interest to some people. Perhaps you are not one of these people. >As it happens, I am not much interested, thus far, in any ufology emanating from China or Japan. Maybe I ought to be. My whole point is that this has nothing to to with the veracity of the UFO cases from the MOD. It seems to be more of a struggle between one personality, Nick Pope, and the followers of two other personalities Andy Roberts and David Clarke, who are trumpeting the virtues of the latter. This has nothing to do with my interest in the phenomenon in the UK nor has the war between Pope and the Robert and Clarke followers. The MOD documents still stand on their own whether dug out by one side or the other. I think it important that UFO reports from all parts of the world are investigated or at least brought to the fore. The problem most of us suffer is the study of a subject at a distance. It is much harder for me to study some case in China than here in Canada [or the USA - are you confused] or even the UK because they are more readily accessible. For a few months now I've been helping, peripherally, a researcher in the UK with some aviation related details and have been able access some CAA documents, however I doubt if I would have the same success in China. To recap the last, my area of interest - because the cases are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:21:53 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:35:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:49:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 >>>Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob >>>Lazar - see: >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml <snip> >>Aloha Jan, >>I'm really amused at how UFO veteran researchers are so >>concerned about guarding the 'unitiated' from the danger posed >>by the scamster, fraud, charlatan, inveterate liar, >>disinformationist, etc. Basically the UFO world is filled either >>by honest witnesses/government employees who can be trusted; and >>scamsters, etc., wanting to deceive a gullible public. The >>litmus test for deciding which of the categories someone falls >>into lies in providing documentation and hard evidence. If >>there's not sufficient documentation, then the individual is a >>liar. If there' no hard evidence, then its a tall tale, etc. >Michael, you can't seem to understand that the hard evidence >required is about claims by the hoaxter about himself. If he is >lying about himself, why believe what he says about the so >called black projects he supposedly worked on? >If he can't provide evidence of his degrees,thesis, thesis >advisor, military service, employment,etc than why believe him? Aloha Stan, The point I've been consistenly making is that when it comes to whistleblower evidence one can't simply say only hard evidence and documentation will do. If a whistleblower, such as Lazar, claims that hard evidence and documentation was removed then we need to investigate his testimony closely in terms of content, and corroborating witnesses. You have done this to an extent but I notice that your conclusions are formed by what you couldn't find, rather than the evidence of what others have found. For example, video's were taken when Lazar, Lear and Huff went to observe ETVs being tested out of S4 which confirmed Lazar's testimony of working at S4. A background security check was performed on Lazar and confirmed by independent witnesses when he got clearance to work at S4. Lazar's testimony regarding Teller was recently bolstered in a video where Teller was asked about Lazar's claims about being recommended by him. Teller replied: "No Comment". We've already discussed Lazar at length at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exopolitics/message/141 . I see no point repeating the same points when we clearly disagree about the available data on Lazar. I think it's worthwhile to point out that there is sufficient merit in Lazar's case to consider the exopolitical significance of his claims. You disagree, that's fine. However, why sabotage the efforts of those wanting to examine the exopolitical implications of Lazar's testimony in this forum? It seems you will just keep repeating your point of no hard evidence, no data and say no analysis is worthwhile. However, others do think it prudent to do such an analysis since one can't dismiss his case due to the extensive data corroborating parts of his testimony. Lazar will not go away simply because you focus on the missing data in his case. It's the corroborating data that persuades people that there's merit in Lazar's testimony. >>If >>the person's testimony conflicts in a some way with available >>documentation, then they are dismissed as a fraud, etc. I think >>this simple bipolar UFO world constructed by UFO veterans is way >>off the mark. It's a children's fable designed to frighten than >>to enlighten. People's motivations, experiences and testimonies >>are far more complex. There's no easy way to deal with people's >>testimony from deep black projects where there's no >>documentation and hard evidence but it can be done if there's a >>desire to do so. >Obviously you have no desire to do so. You wish to believe every >so called whistleblower's testimony. That is your privilege. But >I don't believe in the tooth fairy any more either. You are being entirely unrealistic here. The security procedures set in place to enforce secrecy concerning classified projects dealing with ETVs and EBEs are not tooth fairy stories. This is very real and significant. Your approach is an obstacle to those wanting to unravel what's happening in these projects using the testimony of whistleblowers such as Lazar. >>So far, I've found no real desire by veteran >>UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. >That is absolute nonsense. You just don't want to listen to the >evidence, about Lazar, Milton William Cooper, Michael Wolf >Kruvant etc. >>It's just lot's of dismissive statements and ridicule. In my >>view, dealing seriously with whistleblowers from classified >>projects is a bit too intimidating for veteran researchers. >Try facts rather than dimissive statements and ridicule.Why >would those of us who have worked on classified projects be >intimidated? So based on your personal experiences you believe that there's nothing to fear for those who have worked on classified projects. There are different classification levels and compartmentalized projects that exist, your personal experience of the security procedures in one set of classified projects has no relevance for the security procedures in place for other projects that are more highly classified. Lazar had no problems when he worked at Los Alamos with his Q-clearance and disclosing this information to others. It's only at S-4 with his Majestic clearance that he experienced problems when breaking secrecy. Your personal experiences are no guide to what whistleblowers such as Lazar have experienced. >><snip> >>Yes, it's true that in the interview Lazar's failed to remember >>the frequency of the gravity wave amplifier. He only could >>recall it was an odd frequency. He can be accused of having a >>poor memory which is very human. Let's all remember that Lazar >>claimed to work in a classified S4 project, not to possessing >>photographic memory. >He claimed much else like a thesis on magnetoaerodynamics... >none at MIT, like degrees from MIT and Cal Tech. No evidence and >plenty of evidence that he was at neither place. He named >William Duxler as having taught him physics at CCal Tech. Duxler >never taught at Cal Tech, but did have Bob in a class at Pierce >JC while he was supposedly at MIT a continent away We've already discussed these issues before and reach different conclusions: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/feb/m23-013.shtml <snip> >>>But now I am going to let you in on something which is more >>>precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total >>>truth. >>Ok, so now we have the ridicule factor about to be used. Why is >>it that veteran UFO researchers can't appreciate the seriousness >>of Lazar's claims and try to depict anyone defending him as >>taken in by a huckster. George Knapp's investigations have >>provided ample evidence to support Lazar's testimony. >Sorry, that is more nonsense. Veteran researchers do appreciate >the seriousness of the claims and that is why we have spent so >much effort to try to verify them. They are not verified. I >happen to like George Knapp. He has provided no evidence of >degrees, a thesis, the existence of large quantities of a >stable element 115. He has not beeen able to show that Bob would >have qualified for MIT given his poor high school background (he >tried) or that he worked for LANL as opposed to Kirk Meyer as >noted in the phone book. You consistently fail to see the point that verification is not always possible when it comes to the specific claims made by whistleblowers. The security procedures in place for the kinds of projects Lazar claims to have worked at S4 ensure this. However, we have testimonies pointing to Lazar having worked at S4. Jim Tagliani who had a security clearance to work at the nearby Tonopah facility claims that he was approached by OSI the day after Lazar went public and told that he "S4 was off Limits" to Tonopah personnel. Why would OSI approach Tagliani if Lazar's story about S4 was contrived? >>For >>example, Lazar's claims regarding element 115 are turning out to >>be very consistent with the latest scientific advances in >>stellar astronomy. The critique of Dr David Morgan that Stan >>distributed to the forum had an important deficiency in it as I >>pointed out in my short article: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- >>Comment-31.htm . Dr Morgan dismissed the idea that metals >>heavier than iron could be formed in stable stars, yet I was >>able to quickly point out to Stan and others that Dr Morgan is >>wrong. >You are once again mistaken. The Lead stars don't establish any >abundance of elements above Lead (At. No. 82). Certainly Morgan >doesn't say heavy elements above iron aren't in stars.Of course >they are.He is talking of quantities of stable elements above >100 You are wrong. This is what Morgan said: "Heavy elements - all elements heavier than iron - are not formed during the normal life cycles of stars." You ignore this error and now say that nothing higher than lead forms in stars. You are distorting what Morgan said in order to buttress your opinion that Morgan provided a slam dunk critique of Lazar. I pointed out Morgan's error and you continue to ignore that. Morgan's astronomy is wrong when it comes to the formation of heavy metals in massive stars. Why do you fail to acknowledge this error in your continued dissemination of Morgan's critique?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:40:03 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:19:41 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:14:33 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research ><snip> >>>Perhaps it is more of a "mixed bag" or "all of the above". >>>Charlatans and scholars exist in all cultures. Truth and >>>lies are translated in all languages. Every culture exhibits >>>media and personal bias; some obvious, some subtle. >>>Ultimately, it all boils down to the individual and how >>>willing each person is to become an informed consumer of >>>information. Each citizen of every country must ask >>>themselves, in all honesty, do they want to believe or do >>>they want the truth. ><snip> >>An excellent analysis Amy, but I found myself muttering, >>after reading the above paragraph, "So what?" >>I acknowledge there was no trace of censure or judgement in >>your observations and I'm not accusing you of such, but I >>would have been grateful if you had taken your analysis >>further and explained why so many on both sides of >>the "believing" fence feel a religious zeal in trying to >>correct the beliefs of those they feel are mistaken. To me, >this is the height of supreme arrogance - as if one can >>straighten out the misguided philosphy of those perceived to >>be wrong and set them on the road to righteousness, as laid >down by "me" of course. We should leave these people, from >>whatever perspective, alone. If we consider them ignorant, >>then leave them alone in their ignorance. They are happy >>where they are and let's face it, who really is to say they >are wrong? >Why do people feel the need to promote their belief systems to >others? That's a good question and one I have pondered many >times. >After reading your question to my 20 year old daughter (going >on 80), I asked her why she thought people felt such a need >to convince others their way of thinking is right and any >other way of thinking is wrong (she was on the debate team >in high school and spends much of her waking hours debating >everything under the sun). To which she replied, "Because it >makes it more true. >The more that believe the way you do, the more right you >feel. If less people share your beliefs, you feel afraid you >might be wrong and begin to question your beliefs. When you >question your beliefs, you have to search harder for the >truth. It's easier to get others to agree with your way of >thinking than it is to search for the truth and maybe change the way you think. When others agree with your point of view it makes you feel special." Would you be kind enough to thank your daughter on my behalf for an excellent response. It leaves me wondering what's wrong with me as I don't find I'm too bothered about being agreed with or not. I must be a confident, or arrogant soul! >I doubt there are any easy or quick answers to this question >because the need to believe is different from person to >person. From a psychosocial point of view, which is like >zooming out from individual to group behaviors, there are >similar patterns or traits that appear to correlate with >belief needs observed in religions, cults as well as >sociopolitical arenas across all cultures. Far beyond the >UFO community, the need to believe and convert others >appears to be an inherent aspect of human nature. So much >so, it is one characteristic used by science to distinguish >humans from animals. >In reference to the need to convert others to one's way of >thinking, this too is more complex than we have time or space >to cover in this or subsequent posts. But let me ask you >this, if people stopped debating issues, what would we >learn? What would the world be like today if Hitler was >allowed to continue promoting his belief that all Jews >should be exterminated? Should he have just been left alone >in his ignorance (or stupidity) and allowed to carry on with >his philosophies? If he was happy, why interfere? What about >the Heaven's Gate cult (I studied this group and have an >extensive file on them including original video footage I >took with their permission)? Your perspective of leaving >them alone in their ignorance appears to have been exactly >what happened... with disastrous consequences. Well, here you've crossed a line. Hitler was entitled to his views but not to enact them because in so doing, he was hurting a great many people, and that was not acceptable. If he'd just carried on chundering under his breath, without doing anything, then fine. As for Heavens Gate, I find myself in a dilemma with this one as my views I think are contrary to most and may appear perverse. But I see nothing wrong with what happened there. There was no compulsion as far as I'm aware for anyone to take their life and all did so, unless you're going to say otherwise, voluntarily. And yet our reaction is what a shame and what a waste. You are judging them by the parameters laid down by what is considered to be normal human behaviour, but who decided that? I accept there are established patterns of human conduct and that we consider what in affect was suicide to be disasterous, but the point being it felt right for them at the time. I think we feel threatened and challenged by people who do this sort of thing. When you were there, what were your instincts about them? >At what point do we call it ignorance (lack of knowledge) or >stupidity (lack of intelligence)? Ignorance is merely a lack >of knowledge or being uninformed while stupidity is unable >or unwilling to recognize information regardless of the >content. People who believe out of ignorance merely lack >adequate and valid information. People who continue to >believe despite the evidence/information are either >incapable or unwilling to use logic and reason. People who >believe something due to lack of information often recognize truth when they finally see it. Those unable or unwilling to change their beliefs remain myopic and conflicted because, >subconsciously, they know truth is just beyond their grasp. >Do you believe something because it's true or is it true >because you believe it? >If you were wrong in your beliefs but happy, would you prefer >to be left alone or would you still want the truth? Of the above, I'm interested in those who are not equipped to process new information that conflicts with what they believe. You can help them but at what point does helping become directive or even coercion? That's the line that I think many cross. >>The real giveaways for me are the constant jibes, from both >>sides. John's closing comment about reports, "not telling >>ufologists what they want to hear" speaks volumes. I have no >>idea if there was a "side" to James Smith's original post but >>it struck me as a rather lame attempt to show that he was >>more open minded than he is accused of being. >The hardest part of searching for valid information on this or >any list, is sorting the bull from the bullshi#. With all the >chest thumping, snorting and vocalizations, it sometimes seems >more like a jungle than a discussion forum (IMO). I'm not sure >if this is due to an overabundance of testosterone or a lack >of adequate progesterone but the smell of piss and antlers >has reduced many amazing discussions to a substance not unlike >used kitty litter (UFO community = 56% men, 44% women, Brenda >Denzler, The Lure Of The Edge, University of California Press, >2001). What I don't understand is why some people are allowed >to destroy healthy and productive discussions with their >inane input while others would be swiftly banned for similar >transgressions. There are those who maintain the status quo >and those who challenge - and never clear which side is >which. I often wonder if this is due to natural selection or >planned erranthood. ;> There is a pecking order of sorts too, but I'm not sure it's quite as black and white as you've painted above. I know you've observed this List "professionally" as I'm sure others have too and yet you're still searching for answers. I don't have them either but I am aware of subtleties and nuances. Certain folk for example, strike both the right chord and the wrong chord with readers from the moment of their first post. It wouldn't be fair to quote examples that struck me but I am curious as to why the same post can draw such wide and varying responses. >>And somewhat belatedly, I would agree with John Velez's >>orgiginal accusation levelled at Kyle King that there is an >>element of racism in much of North America's responses to >>south of the border UFO reports, and I detect the same >>strand in James Smith's comments too. It is something that >>our South American colleagues seem to put up with, with >>remarkable patience, but I guess they're used to it. >I disagree, Stuart. Instead of listening to Mr. King and >discussing the issues at hand, he was attacked, berated and >accused of racism. Instead of saying, "Mmmmm, perhaps we >should study this." the usual distractions and finger pointing >ensued. I don't care where one is from, the burden of proof >is on those making the original claims. The issue remains >under investigation. The mask has slipped here Amy and your response is based on your recollection of your personal distaste for the manner of John's response. You've slipped out of objectivity. I didn't respond at all to Kyle's post but John Velez virtually took my thoughts right out of my mouth, or rather my brain. In other words, he said what I was thinking. I might have said it differently, probably, and maybe more kindly but in essence, I agreed with him. The more interesting issue for me was Kyle's complete lack or awareness of the impact of his own words. That was the real issue. >>And perhaps Amy, you might turn your spotlight on to the >>other side, towards those who are perceived to be the models >>of common sense in Ufological matters. What is their >>pathology? And go on, be a devil, include yourself as well. >Mmmmm, perhaps we should study this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:17:47 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:44:01 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Jaems Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:01:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:14:33 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:16:40 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>The real giveaways for me are the constant jibes, from both >>sides. John's closing comment about reports, "not telling >>ufologists what they want to hear" speaks volumes. I have no >>idea if there was a "side" to James Smith's original post but >>it struck me as a rather lame attempt to show that he was >>more openminded than he is accused of being. >Lame attempt? Look at it from my perspective. A.J. asks me to >look at the fleet video and give him an opinion. I do and I >get attacked (not by A.J.). And it escalates. And nothing I >say is acceptable for one reason or another. It cannot >possibly be balloons! No way!. It doesn't really matter to >me. But the anger and hostility against me is alarming. So, >after some thinking and re-reading of Velez's posts and other >postings not directed at me but which seem to have the same >message and I wonder if I am being too US-centered and wonder >if there may be some cultural-specific effect that could be >the cause of this excessive anger. Well firstly, at the risk of sounding patronising, kudos for at least having the awareness to go back and think about it and to try and work it out. I think it can all be summed up by a lack of sensitivity. I don't mean to infer that you're a lumbering elephant completely oblivious to the thoughts and feelings of others so much as (and here comes the presumption and generalisation) the fact of your scientific background probably directs you more towards a factual based reality, to the exclusion of other issues. >If there is no such effect, then I really must assume its >simply personal and I should not cut people slack because of >the nation and culture they grew up in and live in. If you follow that philosophy, you wouldn't last here very much longer. >>And somewhat belatedly, I would agree with John Velez's >>orgiginal accusation levelled at Kyle King that there is an >>element of racism in much of North America's responses to >>south of the border UFO reports, and I detect the same >>strand in James Smith's comments too. It is something that >>our South American colleagues seem to put up with, with >>remarkable patience, but I guess they're used to it. >This is exactly the thing I am talking about. Is there real >racism going on or just sensitivity from being picked on by >the US? I admit to making remarks about "the UFO story playing >well on Telemundo". But I could just as easily say it would >play well on Fox. The fact is that bringing up Telemundo may >be a slam against that media outlet's content, but it is nota >slam against the "culture" or nations down there. Firstly, I don't detect anti-Americanism. The same response, say, from a Swede would probably have resulted in a similar brouha. Yes, you could have used the Fox network as an example (you're obviously beginning to get it now) but the fact is, you didn't. Your last sentence in the above paragraph I feel is wrong. If you like something and someone else criticises it in a negative, unconstructive way, of course you are going to be offended because it is an indirect attack on you, your tastes, your cultural background etc. >Exactly what is required to not affect the senstivities? >Simply allow them to tell their story and nod? Don't offer >critical comments? Do we apply these same generous rules to >reports in the US? It's words used that matter, and how they're used. That's all. >The other thing I wonder about is whether it really is racism >to assume that nations with lower levels of education, wealth >are less reliable UFO reporting or researching countries than >those with higher such levels. Yes, it sounds biased and >racist, but it seems like there should be some relationship. Well, as a Brit, I have never had a problem communicating with anyone in America although I do have to make allowances, and I'm sure Mexicans and Brazilians etc. don't have problems either. But I think you're being a bit harsh with your description of your country and countrymen. >Or perhaps we should just ignore it and push it back under the >rug. And what exactly do you mean by that remark? Everyone knows, or should do, that Mexico is a world renown centre for carpets and rugs. There you go again, tsk! I am only kidding (do scientists have a sense of humour?) just in case your heart rate shot up then. Tell you what though. I bet your sensitivity radar completely missed the olive branch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: John Keel Demolished - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:45:31 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Fleming >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell >>Another possibility is John Keel's "ultraterrestrial" idea. I >>know he bashes ufologists with as much glee and with much of the >>same polemics as "skeptics" do, and that some of his reports may >>be of dubious reliabilty. But I still find his >>"ultraterrestrial" notion entertaining. >Lan, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on "ultraterrestrials," >unless you think - and I'm sure you don't - that demonology is a >productive approach to UFO (or any other) study. >As Keel stated openly on a number of occasions, in case readers >couldn't have figured it out themselves, ultraterrestrials are >demons by another name. Jerry,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Moulton Howe From: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:18:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:08:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Moulton Howe [Non-Subscriber Post] >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:52:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> >>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >>Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>Linda Howe and colleagues: >>My comments are below. Sent to all lists and friends. Can be >>openly forwarded. >>From: "Linda Moulton Howe" <earthfiles.nul> >>Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 8:54 PM >>Subject: Re: Inquiry from Linda Moulton Howe, Earthfiles.com, on >May 30,2005 >>>May 30, 2005 - Memorial Day, Albuquerque, New Mexico >>>Dear Victor, Paula, and all, >>>Urandir Oliveira was invited to the CINDACTA I meeting in >>>Brasilia on May 20, 2005, and I interviewed him about his >>>perspective with the translation help of Felipe Branco for my >>>May 26, 2005, Earthfiles report. >>No. Not at all. >I also emailed LMH about her 'interview' with Oliveira. >She replied with much the same. She said she didn't understand my >email. Here is my reply to her: >----- >Hi Linda, >Let me explain. >Oliveira is a fraud, hack and shyster and I can not understand >your continued interest in him. >There were six people invited by the Brazilian Air Force to >attend the meeting. Claudeir Covo, Marco Petit, Rafael Cury, >Reginaldo de Athayde, Fernando Ramalho and A. J. Gevaerd. >Athayde was sick and was replaced by Roberto Affonso Beck. >Oliveira's name is nowhere to be found. >He was invited by whom? When? Why? >So you interviewed him. You could have just as easily >interviewed 67% of the Sunday night viewing audience who watched >"Fantastico!". That's where he got his information. >Why didn't you attempt to interview those who were actually >inside and not just standing out in front of CINDACTA I >headquarters having their photo op. >Why didn't you even mention them in your article other then "UFO >researchers". They are the ones who did all the work. >Does that explain my email a little better. >Thank you >Terry Groff >----- >She has yet to reply. >Terry Dear Mr. Groff: I forwarded your previous e-mail below to Felipe Branco for reply. ------ From: "L. Felipe S. Castelo Branco" <lfcastel.nul> To: "earthfiles" <earthfiles.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:36:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff Hi Linda, In the program "Fantastico" on Sunday night (May 20, 2005), everyone could have easily seen Urandir standing behind the base commander, INSIDE the Cindacta I facility. He was also sitting a couple of seats behind AJ.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:58:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:39:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff >From: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul>, >Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:18:06 -0700 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >[Non-Subscriber Post] >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:52:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira <snip> >Dear Mr. Groff: >I forwarded your previous e-mail below to Felipe Branco for reply. >------ >From: "L. Felipe S. Castelo Branco" <lfcastel.nul> >To: "earthfiles" <earthfiles.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:36:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff >Hi Linda, >In the program "Fantastico" on Sunday night (May 20, 2005), >everyone could have easily seen Urandir standing behind the base >commander, INSIDE the Cindacta I facility. He was also sitting a >couple of seats behind AJ. >Regards >Felipe Ms. Howe OK, I take back one thing. I said that he wasn't in attendance. He was. This changes little though. He was never invited. He called up and demanded to be allowed to attend. No one WANTED him there. They had to allow him for some technical reason. His appearance on camera was only for show and an attempt to bolster himself. Still you haven't given any credit where it is really due. Oliveira is still a fraud, hack and shyster and your interest in him has damaged your credibility almost beyond repair. I say
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Landahl From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:08:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Landahl >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul>, >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >To: Linda Howe and colleagues: >My comments are below. Sent to all lists and friends. Can be >openly forwarded. >>From: "Linda Moulton Howe" <earthfiles.nul> >>Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 8:54 PM >>Subject: Re: Inquiry from Linda Moulton Howe, Earthfiles.com, on May 30,2005 >>May 30, 2005 - Memorial Day, Albuquerque, New Mexico >>Dear Victor, Paula, and all, >>Urandir Oliveira was invited to the CINDACTA I meeting in >>Brasilia on May 20, 2005, and I interviewed him about his >>perspective with the translation help of Felipe Branco for my >>May 26, 2005, Earthfiles report. >No. Not at all. >Urandir was never invited to any meeting whatsoever and it is >just another of his lies. Should you have listened to somebody >else, you would know that for sure. And Urandir is not lying >only to you, Linda, but also to thousand of the followers of his >UFO-sect and saying that not only he was invited but that he was >responsible for the disclosure taken place. Plus, in addition to >his lie, Urandir has openly said that the "invitation" to him >took place because of his "contacts with aliens". It is not only >offending, but also insulting and a great danger to the >disclosure process. Should this kind of absurd reach the >military's ears, the process can be stopped at any time. By the >way, the only visible effort of Urandir in the meeting was to be >in the same frame of the people interviewed by the Fantastico >program, in order to be seem on TV as part of the team who was >received by the military. It was noticed even by some of our >military hosts, who visibly showed embarrassment with his >presence as someone who has been largely exposed by the media as >a hoaxer. <snip> >If you want to interview someone who can give you and to your >readers legitimate info about the campaign UFOs: Freedom of >Information Now and its achievement, someone who can really >speak for it, I can provide a list of names and you pick anyone >you want. >>A prayer for more peace in this Memorial Day time, >Indeed. More peace and more truth. And less lies, distortions >and hoaxes. Dear Listfolk, I don't know Linda Moulton Howe, nor have I ever been particularly interested in her work. However, judging from the opinions and alleged facts presented on this List over the past year or so, it seems the 'evidence' is overwhelming - Urandir Oliveira appears to be a fraud. Apparently, only Ms. Howe and the paying customers who compose the body of 'followers' in his personality cult support him. Cursorily speaking, Ms. Howe appears to have had a modicum of professional success in her chosen career. Therefore, from an outsider's point of view, she appears to be risking her credibility by supporting and promoting a person whose claims a large majority of the Brazilian UFO research community considers fraudulent. So why does Ms. Howe so stubbornly believe his transparent lies? Such as claiming he was invited to the CINDACTA meeting when many people including military officials would apparently attest to the fact that Urandir was not invited. Why doesn't the word of many respectable persons stating that Urandir was not invited to the meeting outweigh the word of only Urandir claiming he was invited? It seems a simple issue to use as an example of Ms. Howe's seemingly inexplicable support. The Brazilian UFO research community is apparently solidly united in believing that Urandir is a fraud. So why does Ms. Howe continue to support him in the face of such overwhelming opposition? What is Ms. Howe's motivation behind her relentless promotion of Urandir? Does Ms. Howe have a financial interest in Urandir's claims and actions? Does Ms. Howe have a personal interest in Urandir's claims and actions? Does Ms. Howe hold the Brazilian UFO research community in low esteem? Can someone provide enlightenment? Does Royce 'Watchdog' Myers have any information on this matter?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:08:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:24:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Gevaerd >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:52:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> >>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >>Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira <snip> Hello Terry: I read LMH's reply to your message and the one forwarded by Castello Branco, who is some kind of manager of Urandir=B4s UFO- sect, a person who strongly defends the most absurd hoaxes his boss can come up with. I also read Erik Landahl's long message of questions. It would be interesting to see LMH=B4s answer to all questions raised by Erik. That is definitely something that lots of people want to see. As for Urandir being at Cindacta I, yes he was there. As for he had being invited, no he was not. He invited himself and was "tolerated" much to his embarrassment. The military chose to let he in, as he would cause much damage if he had not. You are correct in everything you write.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 1 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:16:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Groff >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul > >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:08:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:52:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >>>Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira ><snip> >Hello Terry: >I read LMH's reply to your message and the one forwarded by >Castello Branco, who is some kind of manager of Urandir=B4s UFO- >sect, a person who strongly defends the most absurd hoaxes his >boss can come up with. >I also read Erik Landahl's long message of questions. It >would be interesting to see LMH=B4s answer to all questions raised >by Erik. That is definitely something that lots of people want >to see. >As for Urandir being at Cindacta I, yes he was there. As for he >had being invited, no he was not. He invited himself and was >"tolerated" much to his embarrassment. The military chose to let >he in, as he would cause much damage if he had not. >You are correct in everything you write. >Best regards >A. J. Thank you A.J.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:35:06 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:56:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Kimball >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla <snip> >So far, I've found no real desire by veteran >UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. This is just red-herring nonsense. I don't agree with those who do, but many, many veteran ufologists take as the gospel the "whistleblower" accounts of Wilbert Smith, as one example (whatever else I think about Smith and his stories, I accept that he was sincere in his beliefs). Many took Frank Kaufmann seriously; ditto Gerald Anderson - in both cases, much to their eventual chagrin. But at least they had the guts, as Kevin Randle has recently, to admit that they got it wrong. It's not that veteran ufologists won't look at "whistleblowers" - it's just that they won't look at the ones you promote. For
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:14:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:02:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira - Myers >From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:08:42 -0700 >Subject: Re: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles.nul>, >>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:50:14 -0300 >>Subject: Gevaerd Moulton Howe & Oliveira <snip> >I don't know Linda Moulton Howe, nor have I ever been >particularly interested in her work. However, judging from the >opinions and alleged facts presented on this List over the past >year or so, it seems the 'evidence' is overwhelming - Urandir >Oliveira appears to be a fraud. Apparently, only Ms. Howe and >the paying customers who compose the body of 'followers' in his >personality cult support him. >Cursorily speaking, Ms. Howe appears to have had a modicum of >professional success in her chosen career. Therefore, from an >outsider's point of view, she appears to be risking her >credibility by supporting and promoting a person whose claims a >large majority of the Brazilian UFO research community considers >fraudulent. >So why does Ms. Howe so stubbornly believe his transparent lies? >Such as claiming he was invited to the CINDACTA meeting when >many people including military officials would apparently attest >to the fact that Urandir was not invited. Why doesn't the word >of many respectable persons stating that Urandir was not invited >to the meeting outweigh the word of only Urandir claiming he was >invited? It seems a simple issue to use as an example of Ms. >Howe's seemingly inexplicable support. >The Brazilian UFO research community is apparently solidly >united in believing that Urandir is a fraud. So why does Ms. >Howe continue to support him in the face of such overwhelming >opposition? >What is Ms. Howe's motivation behind her relentless promotion of >Urandir? Does Ms. Howe have a financial interest in Urandir's >claims and actions? Does Ms. Howe have a personal interest in >Urandir's claims and actions? Does Ms. Howe hold the Brazilian >UFO research community in low esteem? Can someone provide >enlightenment? Does Royce 'Watchdog' Myers have any information >on this matter? All the info I have on the Urandir-Howe fiasco is posted here: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/brazil.html Be sure to go to the bottom of the page for the links. As for the original claim that Urandir had been abducted by aliens, whatever happened to all the scientific work that was supposed to have been carried out? Last I heard, Howe went to the lab where the stones were being looked at and retrieved them without an analysis being completed. I agree that Howe's past work had merit and I did at one time respect her, but after a few experiences with her and her promotion of obvious idiots (i.e.: Burisch, Urandir, etc.) and her pushing of making the mundane into the extraordinary, she's completely lost her credibility with me. She even spent 7 hours with the bogus 'Dr. Reed' at a UFO conference and said she didn't know what to think about the story. This is after I told her the guy was a con artist and provided her the info. I think Ted Oliphant pegged it right by referring to Howe as a media entrepreneur.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 0:25:35 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:07:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle >From: Robert Rosamond <rivergypsy.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:13:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP Hello List, Robert, >To suggest that the man is a burden to U.K. ufology is, quite >frankly, a rather disappointing remark on the part of an >otherwise astute and informed individual. What is perhaps more >of a burden to the subject, is finding largely unimportant >issues such as what Nick Pope said, did and claimed, being >exported around the globe in the hope of finding further >sympathetic audiences. Robert, I don't understand how you could fail to understand the issues at stake here. The day after I first met Hennessey I attended a skywatch at Rendlesham Forest. Amongst others, Judith Jaafar and Malcolm Robinson were there. I was bursting to let them in on the coup, but didn't dare risk word getting back to someone like Pope, and have my (up to then) 2-years worth of research hijacked. I and other UK researchers are currently sat on some tremendously interesting material, which if we felt secure, we would be happy to release early results from. Instead, we are still sat on it, chasing up any loose ends, just in case someone like Pope hijacks it. One individual involved is even questioning why we should bother to release the information at all and has suggested that we just wait and see if anyone else can actually make the effort and find the same information independently. How can you be in any doubt that it is holding back research and dissemination of such in the UK? >Nick might well have 'larged it up' a little at times, but then >he'll openly admit to the fact that he loves media attention. If >that serves as the basis for a prolonged and drawn out debate >within ufology, then clearly a list of like minded names would >be mighty long, and little by way of actual ufology would be >mentioned as a result. Nick isn't the first to 'court' the media >or 'large himself up', and he sure as hell won't be the last. This is only a small part of the damage that he is causing. When the facts suddenly dawn on people that he has exaggerated his official role beyond recognition, the resultant general distrust in anything uflogical will have a very negative backlash, including in the media. This backlash will be totally justified judging from attitudes such as your own. I would also venture to say that any 'official' support shown of Pope by BUFORA will also have eventual consequences, in damage to the credibility of BUFORA (just as it would seem that they are regaining some credibility). >What he does, and does very well (and which is the point of this >posting) is both present and represent a polished, articulate, >sensible and informed side of ufology to the public and media >alike. His ability to avoid the pitfalls of certain questions >and otherwise keep an interview within the bounds of his own >control works very much to ufology's, as opposed to its many and >varied critics, advantage. That, to my mind anyway, represents a >distinctly positive attribute for ufology rather than a burden >to it...British or otherwise. I think your paragraph above would be more accurate if you prefix each occasion of the word 'represent' with 'mis'. >I sometimes wonder if this isn't perhaps the real basis for the >frequent problems a select few seem have with Nick Pope, as >opposed to what he claims to have done within ufology. The >evidence does, at times, appear to have no readily identifiable >or rational basis beyond suggesting that this might be the case >("....so what _did_ the Romans do for us?"). Again Robert, the evidence is rock solid already that in spite of Pope's denials, C&R did unearth the documents first. Much of the evidence that Pope's role was less dramatic than the image misrepresented by him comes from Pope _himself_! He actually contradicts his own words. That in itself is symptomatic of a liar who has lost the storyline which they have made up. >I can certainly see no positive or otherwise vitally important >reason for dragging this minor issue around web sites outside of >Britain >I find this prolonged 'Nick-picking' (sorry) rather unfortunate >and somewhat unnecessary under the circumstances, and certainly >not worthy of 'export' status. I shall be a lot happier if and when Pope is finally exported to the USA. With a bit of luck, that might not be too long in coming. >Regards and respect to those concerned, and this List, >Robert >BUFORA The impression that I am getting from you (rightly or wrongly) is that you and BUFORA don't care if someone plagiarises someone else's work. Please can you confirm to me that BUFORA has no objection to me or anyone else using any of their material without crediting BUFORA?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:31:23 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:16:40 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Friedman >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:08:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:23:45 +0000 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT >>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs <snip> >Perhaps we should make a distinction between "the CIA" as a >monolithic entity and the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence? >It appears to me that Chadwell's OSI and the office of the >Director were not singing from the same hymn sheet, and that >Bedell Smith as DCI was more aligned with the interests >represented at the IAC meeting where Chadwell's push for a major >research program finally hit the buffers and was shunted into a >siding by the strategem of staging yet another consultant review. >Brad thinks the Panel were innocent patsies set-up to fail by the >Air Force; I'm not so sure of this, it depends on how you see the >motivation for the trick, but that a trick was pulled on OSI I >have no doubt personally. It's plain that the IAC didn't want the >CIA/OSI making waves and my own opinion is that OSI were set-up >and forced to stake everything on the Panel because arrangements >were being made to take things in hand elsewhere in the >defence-intelligence "community". >Look at what happened afterwards: Not a murmur of embarrassment >or dissent or apology or internal angst about having taken >proposals for a major UFO program to within an inch of NSC >sanction before being told not to be so silly by a few >consultants. Why is this? They'd already done months of internal >studies, reviewed the AF program and undertaken a review with a >panel of science consultants all "leaders in their fields" and >the last thing that Chadwell wanted now, it seems to me, was >another "review" of the same old materials. He wanted urgent and >immediate action on a new level entirely. So why did OSI >completely capitulate and cave in without even an internal >whisper (as far as I can see) on the basis of just another >casual review of "8 cases in detail" (so much detail that they >didn't even have a screen for showing the movies and had to >project them on the wall!) and summaries of about 15 or so >others? >Look too at what the recommendations were: The main concerns >about clogging intelligence channels, the false-alarm rate in >the defence radar system and the possible exploitation of public >credulity for psy-war purposes were just those that CIA/OSI had >already identified beforehand. These had been main planks in >CIA/OSI's argument for a NSC Intelligence Directive on the >subject. Yet "the panel's deliberations have led CIA to conclude >no directive is warranted" or words to that effect. I don't buy >this. It looks to me that Chadwell must have been told in no >uncertain terms what direction the wind was to blow from then on >and his office went so quiet that the sound of all those dogs >not barking is deafening! >Perhaps the reason no directive was "warranted" was all about >semantics and politics, because the type of domestic >surveillance operations envisaged for CIA post-Robertson were >extralegal and couldn't be enshrined in an NSCID with any >deniability. My own guess is that CIA/OSI was quietly taken >aside by the DCI and told to shut up because there were bigger >issues at stake and they were trespassing on matters already in- >hand elsewhere. I suggest that "elsewhere" was connected with >the emergence of a whole new ultrasecret approach to electronic >intelligence gathering and the centralisation of COMINT/COMSEC >that was gestating at this time, and that the rerouting of >intelligence pathways around both Blue Book _and_ CIA/OSI at >about this time were part of this. From now on CIA's role would >be merely foreign and domestic (illegal) surveillance - under >the guise of the Robertson "education" goals - in support of a >program centralised under a new deal that could not be discussed >openly - even internally. >The new deal was the NSA. Much of the NSA's remit was >extralegal also, as had been those of AFSA and Navy intercept >assets which it now technically subsumed. Robertson was the >first Head of the NSA Scientific Advisory Board of course. >Probably this isn't original and raises some other questions but >I throw it out for people to chew on. >Martin Shough Very interesting post, Martin. Might it be that Smith, Hillenkoetter, Souers, and Vandenberg having all been DCIs, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:44 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:23:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:21:53 -1000 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:49:28 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >>>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 >>>>Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>>I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob >>>>Lazar - see: >>>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml >>>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml ><snip> >>>Aloha Jan, >>>I'm really amused at how UFO veteran researchers are so >>>concerned about guarding the 'unitiated' from the danger posed >>>by the scamster, fraud, charlatan, inveterate liar, >>>disinformationist, etc. Basically the UFO world is filled either >>>by honest witnesses/government employees who can be trusted; and >>>scamsters, etc., wanting to deceive a gullible public. The >>>litmus test for deciding which of the categories someone falls >>>into lies in providing documentation and hard evidence. If >>>there's not sufficient documentation, then the individual is a >>>liar. If there' no hard evidence, then its a tall tale, etc. >>Michael, you can't seem to understand that the hard evidence >>required is about claims by the hoaxter about himself. If he is >>lying about himself, why believe what he says about the so >>called black projects he supposedly worked on? >>If he can't provide evidence of his degrees,thesis, thesis >>advisor, military service, employment,etc than why believe him? >Aloha Stan, >The point I've been consistenly making is that when it comes to >whistleblower evidence one can't simply say only hard evidence >and documentation will do. I haven't said that. I have said that before I believe a witness's testimony which would most likely not be hard evidence, we need hard evidence that backs up his claim about himself. Not his testimony. Is he what he says he is?? In Lazar's case, no sale., >If a whistleblower, such as Lazar, >claims that hard evidence and documentation was removed then we >need to investigate his testimony closely in terms of content, >and corroborating witnesses. So you believe that the government stold his diplomas, his thesis his memory about who his professors were, the identity of people at MIT and Cal Tech that he went to class with etc. You further believe they took all the year books and cut him out by reprinting without his picture, that they changed his high school records, that they forced him to give false testimony about the one teacher he named who never taught at Cal Tech as claimed. They also somehow missed Pierce JC.. a remarkable and totally unbelieveable scenario. >I notice that your conclusions are formed by what you couldn't >find, rather than the evidence of what others have found. Wrong _again_. I found that he graduated from high school in August meaning he had to make up some missing or failed courses. I found that he took only one science course (chemistry), and that he finished in the bottom third of his high school class. These mean he could not have been admitted to MIT. I found that he falsely claimed when asked to name a prof, that William Duxler would remember hin from the Physics Dept. at Cal Tech. I located Duxler who never taught at Cal Tech but did have Bob in a course at Pierce at the very same time he was supposedly at MIT... 2500 miles away. I have heard a tape of Bob being asked when he got his degree at MIT. "Let me see now, it was probably 1982". Knowing a number of MIT grads and having been accepted there myself, I believe all can immediately tell when they got their MIT degrees. I discovered in the Los Alamos phone book that it clearly states Bob worked for Kirk Meyer, not for Los Alamos.This was corroborated by the Personnel Dept. who confirmed that GG an old colleague of mine who worked there with a high level security clearance, but could not confirm Bob as aa LANL employee. Yes, certainly there was a complete absence of transcripts, diplomas, resume, membership in professional groups, exact thesis title, name of thesis advisory, no recognition by Registrar, Commencement list holder, theses holders, any published reports or papers. >For >example, video's were taken when Lazar, Lear and Huff went to >observe ETVs being tested out of S4 which confirmed Lazar's >testimony of working at S4. A background security check was >performed on Lazar and confirmed by independent witnesses when >he got clearance to work at S4. Says who when and where. How does seeing a UFO prove he worked at S-4? >Lazar's testimony regarding >Teller was recently bolstered in a video where Teller was asked >about Lazar's claims about being recommended by him. Teller >replied: "No Comment". How in the world does "No Comment" translate into "Yes, I recommended him?" What language is this?. >We've already discussed Lazar at length >at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exopolitics/message/141 . I >see no point repeating the same points when we clearly disagree >about the available data on Lazar. Are you suggesting you have found transcripts, diplomas, thesis, and any evidence he was ever qualified to be admitted to MIT , no less attended? What data is there? An almost certainly phony W-2 covering a week's pay? A phone book listing that proves he didn't work for LANL? >I think it's worthwhile to point out that there is sufficient >merit in Lazar's case to consider the exopolitical significance >of his claims. What merit is there? >You disagree, that's fine. However, why sabotage >the efforts of those wanting to examine the exopolitical >implications of Lazar's testimony in this forum? It seems you >will just keep repeating your point of no hard evidence, no data >and say no analysis is worthwhile. However, others do think it >prudent to do such an analysis since one can't dismiss his case >due to the extensive data corroborating parts of his testimony. >Lazar will not go away simply because you focus on the missing >data in his case. It's the corroborating data that persuades >people that there's merit in Lazar's testimony. >>>If >>>the person's testimony conflicts in a some way with available >>>documentation, then they are dismissed as a fraud, etc. I think >>>this simple bipolar UFO world constructed by UFO veterans is way >>>off the mark. It's a children's fable designed to frighten than >>>to enlighten. People's motivations, experiences and testimonies >>>are far more complex. There's no easy way to deal with people's >>>testimony from deep black projects where there's no >>>documentation and hard evidence but it can be done if there's a >>>desire to do so. >>Obviously you have no desire to do so. You wish to believe every >>so called whistleblower's testimony. That is your privilege. But >>I don't believe in the tooth fairy any more either. >You are being entirely unrealistic here. The security procedures >set in place to enforce secrecy concerning classified projects >dealing with ETVs and EBEs are not tooth fairy stories. This is >very real and significant. And your expertise on these security procedures comes from what? You admitted you haven't had a security clearance in the USA. Is this based on testimony from Bob? Having had a clearance for 14 years I suspect I would be considered far better qualified than you about security procedures. >Your approach is an obstacle to those >wanting to unravel what's happening in these projects using the >testimony of whistleblowers such as Lazar. >>>So far, I've found no real desire by veteran >>>UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. >>That is absolute nonsense. You just don't want to listen to the >>evidence, about Lazar, Milton William Cooper, Michael Wolf >>Kruvant etc. >>>It's just lot's of dismissive statements and ridicule. In my >>>view, dealing seriously with whistleblowers from classified >>>projects is a bit too intimidating for veteran researchers. Can you cite any whistleblowers from classified projects? The 4 above don't qualify >>Try facts rather than dimissive statements and ridicule.Why >>would those of us who have worked on classified projects be >>intimidated? >So based on your personal experiences you believe that there's >nothing to fear for those who have worked on classified >projects. There are different classification levels and >compartmentalized projects that exist, your personal experience >of the security procedures in one set of classified projects has >no relevance for the security procedures in place for other >projects that are more highly classified. I should think my employment on classified projects at 6 different companies, interfacing with a number of other facilities, would provide me with far more info than your total absence of such experience. >Lazar had no problems >when he worked at Los Alamos with his Q-clearance and disclosing >this information to others. Just how many phone books is he in? How long was he there. The Meson Facility where he was a technician doesn't do classified work. >It's only at S-4 with his Majestic >clearance that he experienced problems when breaking secrecy. >Your personal experiences are no guide to what whistleblowers >such as Lazar have experienced. Really? You know, and I don't because I am not buying his supposed whistleblower testimony? There was no secrecy to break at the Meson facility and we don't have any evidence other than the say so of a liar that he was employed at S-4. He did lie about Duxler, MIT, Cal Tech.... >>><snip> >>>Yes, it's true that in the interview Lazar's failed to remember >>>the frequency of the gravity wave amplifier. He only could >>>recall it was an odd frequency. He can be accused of having a >>>poor memory which is very human. Let's all remember that Lazar >>>claimed to work in a classified S4 project, not to possessing >>>photographic memory. >>He claimed much else like a thesis on magnetoaerodynamics... >>none at MIT, like degrees from MIT and Cal Tech. No evidence and >>plenty of evidence that he was at neither place. He named >>William Duxler as having taught him physics at CCal Tech. Duxler >>never taught at Cal Tech, but did have Bob in a class at Pierce >>JC while he was supposedly at MIT a continent away >We've already discussed these issues before and reach different >conclusions: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/feb/m23-013.shtml >>>>But now I am going to let you in on something which is more >>>>precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total >>>>truth. >>>Ok, so now we have the ridicule factor about to be used. Why is >>>it that veteran UFO researchers can't appreciate the seriousness >>>of Lazar's claims and try to depict anyone defending him as >>>taken in by a huckster. George Knapp's investigations have >>>provided ample evidence to support Lazar's testimony. >>Sorry, that is more nonsense. Veteran researchers do appreciate >>the seriousness of the claims and that is why we have spent so >>much effort to try to verify them. They are not verified. I >>happen to like George Knapp. He has provided no evidence of >>degrees, a thesis, the existence of large quantities of a >>stable element 115. He has not beeen able to show that Bob would >>have qualified for MIT given his poor high school background (he >>tried) or that he worked for LANL as opposed to Kirk Meyer as >>noted in the phone book. > >You consistently fail to see the point that verification is not >always possible when it comes to the specific claims made by >whistleblowers. So Bob lost his diplomas, somehow metamorphosed from the bottom third of his high school class with one science course to being in the top 20% and having taken a bunch of science courses >The security procedures in place for the kinds >of projects Lazar claims to have worked at S4 ensure this. These security procedures have nothing to do with the questions at hand. Who is Bob Lazar besides being a bright imaginative writer of science fiction with serious manual skills and a total lack of concern with the truth.? >However, we have testimonies pointing to Lazar having worked at >S4. Jim Tagliani who had a security clearance to work at the >nearby Tonopah facility claims that he was approached by OSI the >day after Lazar went public and told that he "S4 was off Limits" >to Tonopah personnel. Why would OSI approach Tagliani if Lazar's >story about S4 was contrived? We aren't mind readers. The question isn't whether or not there is an S-4.The question is where is there any evidence that Bob is telling the truth. The answer is no. >>>For >>>example, Lazar's claims regarding element 115 are turning out to >>>be very consistent with the latest scientific advances in >>>stellar astronomy. The critique of Dr David Morgan that Stan >>>distributed to the forum had an important deficiency in it as I >>>pointed out in my short article: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- >>>Comment-31.htm . Dr Morgan dismissed the idea that metals >>>heavier than iron could be formed in stable stars, yet I was >>>able to quickly point out to Stan and others that Dr Morgan is >>>wrong. >>You are once again mistaken. The Lead stars don't establish any >>abundance of elements above Lead (At. No. 82). Certainly Morgan >>doesn't say heavy elements above iron aren't in stars.Of course >>they are.He is talking of quantities of stable elements above >>100 >You are wrong. This is what Morgan said: "Heavy elements - all >elements heavier than iron - are not formed during the normal >life cycles of stars." Read what he said... "normal life-cycle". That is where nuclear transmutation, supernovas etc., come in. As Carl Sagan once said "...we are made of star stuff." Please read the rest of his critique of the new physics ala Lazar. >You ignore this error and now say that >nothing higher than lead forms in stars. You are distorting what >Morgan said in order to buttress your opinion that Morgan >provided a slam dunk critique of Lazar. I pointed out Morgan's >error and you continue to ignore that. Morgan's astronomy is >wrong when it comes to the formation of heavy metals in massive >stars. Why do you fail to acknowledge this error in your >continued dissemination of Morgan's critique? Stars are the only place elements are formed. Keep looking for enough stable element 115 .. lead is element 82 and is stable.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 1:35:16 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:26:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle >From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:09:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP Hello, Roy. <Snip> >Hi Don, >One of the benefits of being 'well known' UK UFO researchers >such as Clarke & Roberts, it gets you a team of admirers who are >ready and willing to do their arguing for you. As I have alredy made clear, I am arguing on my own behalf. >And well, it looks like that Mr Pope will always be an open >target for those who wish to have a pop at you for the most >minor of things, Such as the 'who picked up the paper first' >routine. Of all the people who have posted in this thread, I can understand your reason for holding this POV the most. You have nothing to lose since you are not an active researcher, so it is marginally more difficult for you to grasp the issues. I can only suggest that you re-read the previous posts several times, eventually it will dawn on you what it is all about. >I can only hope that your sentiments are shared on this List, I >for one am bored witless by it! No-one is forcing you to read the thread, why are you doing so if it bores you so much? I just guess you and Don must have masochistic tendencies.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 2 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Bordais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:51:25 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:28:54 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Bordais >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Shell ><snip> >While I think the ETH seems to be the most plausible explanation at present, I recognize that it isn't the only possibility. The UFO phenomenon might even ultimately turn out to be fully attributable to hoaxes, misidentifications, and delusions as the skeptics insist, although given the available evidence, I'd rank the plausibility of the "psycho-social hypothesis" right down there with Loki. You seem to forget another hypothesis: What if Loki was an "ET" ?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:06:07 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:31:23 -0300 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:08:27 +0100 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:23:45 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:44 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs ><snip> >>Perhaps we should make a distinction between "the CIA" as a >>monolithic entity and the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence? >>It appears to me that Chadwell's OSI and the office of the >>Director were not singing from the same hymn sheet, and that >>Bedell Smith as DCI was more aligned with the interests >>represented at the IAC meeting where Chadwell's push for a major >>research program finally hit the buffers and was shunted into a >>siding by the strategem of staging yet another consultant review. >>Brad thinks the Panel were innocent patsies set-up to fail by the >>Air Force; I'm not so sure of this, it depends on how you see the >>motivation for the trick, but that a trick was pulled on OSI I >>have no doubt personally. It's plain that the IAC didn't want the >>CIA/OSI making waves and my own opinion is that OSI were set-up >>and forced to stake everything on the Panel because arrangements >>were being made to take things in hand elsewhere in the >>defence-intelligence "community". >>Look at what happened afterwards: Not a murmur of embarrassment >>or dissent or apology or internal angst about having taken >>proposals for a major UFO program to within an inch of NSC >>sanction before being told not to be so silly by a few >>consultants. Why is this? They'd already done months of internal >>studies, reviewed the AF program and undertaken a review with a >>panel of science consultants all "leaders in their fields" and >>the last thing that Chadwell wanted now, it seems to me, was >>another "review" of the same old materials. He wanted urgent and >>immediate action on a new level entirely. So why did OSI >>completely capitulate and cave in without even an internal >>whisper (as far as I can see) on the basis of just another >>casual review of "8 cases in detail" (so much detail that they >>didn't even have a screen for showing the movies and had to >>project them on the wall!) and summaries of about 15 or so >>others? >>Look too at what the recommendations were: The main concerns >>about clogging intelligence channels, the false-alarm rate in >>the defence radar system and the possible exploitation of public >>credulity for psy-war purposes were just those that CIA/OSI had >>already identified beforehand. These had been main planks in >>CIA/OSI's argument for a NSC Intelligence Directive on the >>subject. Yet "the panel's deliberations have led CIA to conclude >>no directive is warranted" or words to that effect. I don't buy >>this. It looks to me that Chadwell must have been told in no >>uncertain terms what direction the wind was to blow from then on >>and his office went so quiet that the sound of all those dogs >>not barking is deafening! >>Perhaps the reason no directive was "warranted" was all about >>semantics and politics, because the type of domestic >>surveillance operations envisaged for CIA post-Robertson were >>extralegal and couldn't be enshrined in an NSCID with any >>deniability. My own guess is that CIA/OSI was quietly taken >>aside by the DCI and told to shut up because there were bigger >>issues at stake and they were trespassing on matters already in- >>hand elsewhere. I suggest that "elsewhere" was connected with >>the emergence of a whole new ultrasecret approach to electronic >>intelligence gathering and the centralisation of COMINT/COMSEC >>that was gestating at this time, and that the rerouting of >>intelligence pathways around both Blue Book _and_ CIA/OSI at >>about this time were part of this. From now on CIA's role would >>be merely foreign and domestic (illegal) surveillance - under >>the guise of the Robertson "education" goals - in support of a >>program centralised under a new deal that could not be discussed >>openly - even internally. >>The new deal was the NSA. Much of the NSA's remit was >>extralegal also, as had been those of AFSA and Navy intercept >>assets which it now technically subsumed. Robertson was the >>first Head of the NSA Scientific Advisory Board of course. >>Probably this isn't original and raises some other questions but >>I throw it out for people to chew on. >Very interesting post, Martin. Might it be that Smith, >Hillenkoetter, Souers, and Vandenberg having all been DCIs, and >all being part of MJ-12, kept matters in hand by setting things >up as described, above. Need-to-know would have prevented >letting in Chadwell, etc. Could be, Stan. I honestly don't feel I know enough about the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: Secrecy News -- 06/02/05 - Aftergood From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:09:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:10:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 06/02/05 - Aftergood SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 52 June 2, 2005 ** NRO EXPANDS USE OF OPERATIONAL FILES EXEMPTION ** ASSESSING THE ISRAELI NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM ** A HISTORY OF SPANISH INTELLIGENCE ** DOD INSTRUCTIONS ON COUNTERINTELLIGENCE ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS NRO EXPANDS USE OF OPERATIONAL FILES EXEMPTION The National Reconnaissance Office is sharply curtailing its response to Freedom of Information Act requests by expanding its interpretation of "operational files" that are exempt from the FOIA. According to statute, operational files are records "that document the means by which foreign intelligence or counterintelligence is collected through scientific and technical systems." Congress exempted NRO operational files from the FOIA in 2002 based on a presumption that such records would be highly classified and unreleasable in any case. But the NRO now contends that routine administrative records such as budget justification documents prepared for Congress are "operational files" and that they are therefore exempt from review and disclosure under FOIA even when they are unclassified. It was not always so. As recently as last year, the NRO released unclassified portions of its Congressional Budget Justification Book for FY 1998 in response to a FOIA request. That material is posted here: http://www.fas.org/irp/nro/fy98/index.html But in response to a similar request for unclassified budget records for FY 2006, the NRO said that all such records are now considered operational files that are exempt from review or release. In response to an administrative appeal, they reaffirmed their position in a May 18 denial letter: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/05/nro051805.pdf The NRO budget justification files are produced each year for the express purpose of dissemination outside of the Agency. They are certainly not what Congress had in mind in granting NRO a FOIA exemption for "operational files." But in the absence of effective oversight, it may take litigation to prove the point. Exemptions for "operational files" have also been granted to the CIA, NGA and NSA. Another such exemption has been requested by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was included in the Senate version of the 2006 Defense Authorization Act (section 922 of S. 1042) but not in the House version (HR 1815). ASSESSING THE ISRAELI NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM "There is considerable evidence to indicate that Israel is engaged in developing capabilities in the nuclear weapons and delivery fields," according to a September 21, 1961 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE 4-3-61) which proceeded to describe that evidence. The NIE was published as part of a remarkable collection of U.S. intelligence estimates on the proliferation of nuclear weapons from 1957-1967 compiled by the National Security Archive. "The sensitivity of the Israeli nuclear issue and that nation's commitment to a policy of opacity on its nuclear weapons status has generally encouraged the U.S. government to take a highly restrictive approach to declassifying intelligence analysis on the Israeli program," observed William Burr, who edited the Archive compilation. See "National Intelligence Estimates of the Nuclear Proliferation Problem: The First Ten Years, 1957-1967," National Security Archive, June 1, 2005: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB155/index.htm The significance of the documents was discussed in the Israeli press today by Avner Cohen, author of the "The Last Taboo," a critique of the Israeli policy of nuclear opacity to be published next week. See "CIA Estimated: By 1966 Israel will be a Nuclear Power" by Avner Cohen, Yediot Aharonot, June 2 (in Hebrew): http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3094093,00.html A new bibliography of published Israeli research in nuclear science and technology has been prepared by independent researcher Mark Gorwitz, as part of a continuing project to map the propagation of nuclear knowledge around the world. See "Bibliography of Israeli Nuclear Science Publications" by Mark Gorwitz, June 2005: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/biblio.pdf A HISTORY OF SPANISH INTELLIGENCE A new history of intelligence and security services in Spain, from the Spanish civil war to the national trauma of the March 11, 2004 train bombings in Madrid, has just been published. "Los Servicios de Inteligencia Espanoles," written by political scientist Antonio M. Diaz, is the first comprehensive treatment of the subject, including an introduction to the field of intelligence for general readers and a comparative assessment of the services of other countries. As a matter of course, the author provides Spanish intelligence budget data for the past decade (p. 299). Similar information is not available in the United States, which no longer sets the world standard for democratic accountability in such matters. "Los Servicios de Inteligencia Espanoles: Desde la guerra civil hasta el 11-M: Historia de una transicion" by Antonio M. Diaz was published this year by Alianza Editorial (in Spanish). For further information or to order online, search under the title or author here: http://www.alianzaeditorial.es/home.html DOD INSTRUCTIONS ON COUNTERINTELLIGENCE Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen A. Cambone issued a new DoD Instruction last month that assigns responsibilities and defines procedures for providing Pentagon counterintelligence services. See "DoD Counterintelligence Functional Services," DoD Instruction 5240.16, May 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/i5240_16.pdf Two related instructions issued by Mr. Cambone over the past year are: "Counterintelligence Support to the Combatant Commands and the Defense Agencies," DOD Instruction 5240.10, May 14, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/i5240_10.pdf "Counterintelligence (CI) Awareness, Briefing, and Reporting Programs," DoD Instruction 5240.6, August 7, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/i5240_6.pdf SELECTED CRS REPORTS Direct public access to products of the Congressional Research Service is not authorized by Congress. But some recent CRS reports obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "U.S.-China Military Contacts: Issues for Congress," updated May 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32496.pdf "China's Growing Interest in Latin America," April 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22119.pdf "Nuclear Weapons: The Reliable Replacement Warhead Program," updated May 26, 2005 to include recent Congressional action: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32929.pdf "Potential Military Use of Airships and Aerostats," updated May 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21886.pdf "Cruise Missile Defense," updated May 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21921.pdf "Navy DD(X), CG(X) and LCS Ship Acquisition Programs: Oversight Issues and Options for Congress," updated April 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32109.pdf "U.S. Assistance to the Former Soviet Union," April 14, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32866.pdf "Coup in Kyrgyzstan: Developments and Implications," April 14, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32864.pdf "Iraq Oil: Reserves, Production, and Potential Revenues," updated April 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21626.pdf "U.S. Embassy in Iraq," updated April 11, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21867.pdf "Internet: An Overview of Key Technology Policy Issues Affecting Its Use and Growth," updated April 13, 2005" http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/98-67.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:12:31 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:44 -0300 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:21:53 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:49:28 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:04:25 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of - Salla >>>>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:22:11 -0400 >>>>>Subject: Bob Lazar Returns - Sort Of >>>>>I noticed that George Knapp and the I-Team have brought back Bob >>>>>Lazar - see: >>>>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m20-019.shtml >>>>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m21-005.shtml >><snip> >>>>Aloha Jan, >>>>I'm really amused at how UFO veteran researchers are so >>>>concerned about guarding the 'unitiated' from the danger posed >>>>by the scamster, fraud, charlatan, inveterate liar, >>>>disinformationist, etc. Basically the UFO world is filled either >>>>by honest witnesses/government employees who can be trusted; and >>>>scamsters, etc., wanting to deceive a gullible public. The >>>>litmus test for deciding which of the categories someone falls >>>>into lies in providing documentation and hard evidence. If >>>>there's not sufficient documentation, then the individual is a >>>>liar. If there' no hard evidence, then its a tall tale, etc. >>>Michael, you can't seem to understand that the hard evidence >>>required is about claims by the hoaxter about himself. If he is >>>lying about himself, why believe what he says about the so >>>called black projects he supposedly worked on? >>>If he can't provide evidence of his degrees,thesis, thesis >>>advisor, military service, employment,etc than why believe him? >>Aloha Stan, >>The point I've been consistenly making is that when it comes to >>whistleblower evidence one can't simply say only hard evidence >>and documentation will do. >I haven't said that. I have said that before I believe a >witness's testimony which would most likely not be hard >evidence, we need hard evidence that backs up his claim about >himself. Not his testimony. Is he what he says he is?? In >Lazar's case, no sale., That's your conclusion from you not being satisfied by what your investigation yielded. Others such as Knapp have reached a very different conclusion based on their questioning of employees at Los Alamos and other witnesses where they were able to confirm Lazar's testimony. The video of the flights from S4 is hard evidence but you debunk it as with every other piece of hard, soft evidence I or others cite in support of Lazar. Why do you take the role of debunker when it comes to whistleblowers like Lazar when competent investigators such as Knapp believe the evidence supporting Lazar is compelling. It seems you have reached an opinion and will not change that no matter what I or others offer as evidence that there is merit in Lazar's case. >>If a whistleblower, such as Lazar, >>claims that hard evidence and documentation was removed then we >>need to investigate his testimony closely in terms of content, >>and corroborating witnesses. >So you believe that the government stold his diplomas, his >thesis his memory about who his professors were, the identity of >people at MIT and Cal Tech that he went to class with etc. You >further believe they took all the year books and cut him out by >reprinting without his picture, that they changed his high >school records, that they forced him to give false testimony >about the one teacher he named who never taught at Cal Tech as >claimed. They also somehow missed Pierce JC.. a remarkable and >totally unbelieveable scenario. Thanks for raising the issue of memory. I think it's worth pointing out that Lazar did claim that one of the security procedures in place was that they messed around with his memory and that was one of the reasons for his desire to go public. I think that it is entirely plausible that Project Managers for classified projects dealing with EBEs/ETVs do mess around with an individual's memory. The technology does exist and was pioneered back in the 1960s by researchers such as Dr Jose Delgado who describe this as Electronic Dissolution of Memory (EDOM). I think at this point members of the forum may protest at me raising this possibility but I think that if one is to genuinely look at the security procedures in place to deal with employees of classified projects dealing with ETVs or EBEs, we need to explore this. In short, it's entirely possible that parts of Lazar's memory were wiped clean along with his records being extracted from the public realm. I think that such technology is used regularly and the agencies do have the removal power I've described. Jim Tagliani claims to have worked with Lazar at Fairchild Electronics where Lazar was allegedly the youngest electrical engineer who had ever worked there. This all happened before Lazar's employment at Los Alamos. That shows that Lazar had completed some degrees in the physical sciences and was a high achiever. I don't think someone with that kind of employment record and building jet cars was the kind of underachiever you portray. Your claims concerning what you were told by Lazar's High School are not consistent with the known data on Lazar's case. You consistently ignore the data that is known about Lazar to pursue your debunking of Lazar. Tagliani is an independent witness who worked at the Tonopah facility and had compartmentalized security clearances. His and others testimony is routinely ignored by you. >>I notice that your conclusions are formed by what you couldn't >>find, rather than the evidence of what others have found. > >Wrong _again_. I found that he graduated from high school in >August meaning he had to make up some missing or failed courses. >I found that he took only one science course (chemistry), and >that he finished in the bottom third of his high school class. >These mean he could not have been admitted to MIT. I found that >he falsely claimed when asked to name a prof, that William >Duxler would remember hin from the Physics Dept. at Cal Tech. I >located Duxler who never taught at Cal Tech but did have Bob in >a course at Pierce at the very same time he was supposedly at >MIT... 2500 miles away. I have heard a tape of Bob being asked >when he got his degree at MIT. "Let me see now, it was probably >1982". Knowing a number of MIT grads and having been accepted >there myself, I believe all can immediately tell when they got >their MIT degrees. >I discovered in the Los Alamos phone book that it clearly states >Bob worked for Kirk Meyer, not for Los Alamos.This was >corroborated by the Personnel Dept. who confirmed that GG an old >colleague of mine who worked there with a high level security >clearance, but could not confirm Bob as aa LANL employee. > >Yes, certainly there was a complete absence of transcripts, >diplomas, resume, membership in professional groups, exact >thesis title, name of thesis advisory, no recognition by >Registrar, Commencement list holder, theses holders, any >published reports or papers. We have already discussed all these issues so there's no point in me repeating myself. See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/feb/m23-013.shtml >>For >>example, video's were taken when Lazar, Lear and Huff went to >>observe ETVs being tested out of S4 which confirmed Lazar's >>testimony of working at S4. A background security check was >>performed on Lazar and confirmed by independent witnesses when >>he got clearance to work at S4. >Says who when and where. How does seeing a UFO prove he worked >at S-4? >>Lazar's testimony regarding >>Teller was recently bolstered in a video where Teller was asked >>about Lazar's claims about being recommended by him. Teller >>replied: "No Comment". >How in the world does "No Comment" translate into "Yes, I >recommended him?" What language is this?. >>We've already discussed Lazar at length >>at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exopolitics/message/141 . I >>see no point repeating the same points when we clearly disagree >>about the available data on Lazar. >Are you suggesting you have found transcripts, diplomas, thesis, >and any evidence he was ever qualified to be admitted to MIT , >no less attended? What data is there? An almost certainly phony >W-2 covering a week's pay? A phone book listing that proves he >didn't work for LANL? The phone book listing proved he worked at Los Alamos. The post code of W-2 was traced to a Naval facility in Maryland. A background check was conducted on Lazar before working at S-4. You ignore this data. >>I think it's worthwhile to point out that there is sufficient >>merit in Lazar's case to consider the exopolitical significance >>of his claims. >What merit is there? You ignore everything I or others say about Lazar. Your mind is mind up. I don't think you are an objective researcher when it comes to Lazar. >>You disagree, that's fine. However, why sabotage >>the efforts of those wanting to examine the exopolitical >>implications of Lazar's testimony in this forum? It seems you >>will just keep repeating your point of no hard evidence, no data >>and say no analysis is worthwhile. However, others do think it >>prudent to do such an analysis since one can't dismiss his case >>due to the extensive data corroborating parts of his testimony. >>Lazar will not go away simply because you focus on the missing >>data in his case. It's the corroborating data that persuades >>people that there's merit in Lazar's testimony. >>>>If >>>>the person's testimony conflicts in a some way with available >>>>documentation, then they are dismissed as a fraud, etc. I think >>>>this simple bipolar UFO world constructed by UFO veterans is way >>>>off the mark. It's a children's fable designed to frighten than >>>>to enlighten. People's motivations, experiences and testimonies >>>>are far more complex. There's no easy way to deal with people's >>>>testimony from deep black projects where there's no >>>>documentation and hard evidence but it can be done if there's a >>>>desire to do so. >>>Obviously you have no desire to do so. You wish to believe every >>>so called whistleblower's testimony. That is your privilege. But >>>I don't believe in the tooth fairy any more either. >>You are being entirely unrealistic here. The security procedures >>set in place to enforce secrecy concerning classified projects >>dealing with ETVs and EBEs are not tooth fairy stories. This is >>very real and significant. >And your expertise on these security procedures comes from what? >You admitted you haven't had a security clearance in the USA. Is >this based on testimony from Bob? Having had a clearance for 14 >years I suspect I would be considered far better qualified than >you about security procedures. Stan, you forget my PhD is in Government/Political Science. I've never worked in Congress yet I'm qualified to describe and evaluate Congressional/Legislative and national security processes which is the work of political scientists. One doesn't need to have direct experience of a particular national security agency, legislative committee, or executive branch of government in order to provide a competent political analysis of it using one's political science training. Let me assure you that political scientists have very intense methodological debates about how to research political processes such as Congressional oversight of security procedures in place for classified programs. While I never spent much time researching security procedures during my teaching/research career in political science, it was an area of interest and I was familiar with the political methodology used by others who did research of classified military projects and Congressional oversight. My more recent research interest in exopolitics has forced me to analyse security processes associated with highly classified projects and I'm genuinely appalled at the lack of Congressional oversight exists and how military/national secuirty agencies can impose draconian security procedures in many projects and get away with it. In contrast, you have a Masters in Nuclear Physics where you had direct experience with security procedures associated with one of more programs requiring a Q-Clearance during your 14 year career. That gives you direct experience of the security procedures in place for the particular compartments of SCI and SAPs that you worked on, however it doesn't give you direct experience for the more highly classified projects like Majestic, Cosmic, etc., that whistleblowers such as Lazar claim to have worked in. It's in the latter that Project Managers impose draconian security procedures with no legislative oversight. In contrast, I will bet that the various projects you worked in did have legislative oversight where any excesses by Security Managers could be dealt with through the appropriate Congressional body where whistleblowers could go and testify about inequitious practices. You have no academic training in understanding and evaluating the oversight procedures of classified programs and how these may vary according to classification levels. You generalize from your own limited experiences in programs subject to legislative oversight and believe you are qualified to opine about projects with higher classification levels with no legislative oversight. That's where you stray from your competence in analysing UFO sightings, to opining about what can and can't be done in classified projects in terms of Congressional oversight where you have no specialized training. >>Your approach is an obstacle to those >>wanting to unravel what's happening in these projects using the >>testimony of whistleblowers such as Lazar. >>>>So far, I've found no real desire by veteran >>>>UFO researchers to deal with whistleblowers in a serious way. >>>That is absolute nonsense. You just don't want to listen to the >>>evidence, about Lazar, Milton William Cooper, Michael Wolf >>>Kruvant etc. >>>>It's just lot's of dismissive statements and ridicule. In my >>>>view, dealing seriously with whistleblowers from classified >>>>projects is a bit too intimidating for veteran researchers. >Can you cite any whistleblowers from classified projects? The 4 >above don't qualify Sure, Phillip Corso, Bill Uhouse, Daniel Salter, Daniel Burisch, Phil Schneider, Don Phillips, Dan Morris, Clifford Stone, Steve Wilson, etc., many of whom are in Steven Greer's Disclosure book. A very important document with the testimonies of these and other whistleblowers who claim to have worked on projects involving EBEs, ETVs or ET technologies. >>>Try facts rather than dimissive statements and ridicule.Why >>>would those of us who have worked on classified projects be >>>intimidated? >>So based on your personal experiences you believe that there's >>nothing to fear for those who have worked on classified >>projects. There are different classification levels and >>compartmentalized projects that exist, your personal experience >>of the security procedures in one set of classified projects has >>no relevance for the security procedures in place for other >>projects that are more highly classified. >I should think my employment on classified projects at 6 >different companies, interfacing with a number of other >facilities, would provide me with far more info than your total >absence of such experience. One can spend a lifetime in government/corporate service with Top Secret clearances and compartmentalized clearances such as Q-clearance and never have information or experience on highly classified projects involving ETV's, EBEs. It should be pointed out that Q-Clearance is a security classification that was created for the nuclear industry. Many congressional aids and congressional representative who serve on a number of committees, e.g., Intelligence, Science, etc., will have Q- clearance. However, Q-Clearance is a very distinct compartment to Majestic/Cosmic, etc., that were related for ET related projects. You have info that is limited to a particular compartmentalized body of information associated with the Nuclear industry. On that score, you are correct that your direct experience is instructive. However, you have no expereince in the compartmented information in more highly classified projects that deal with ETVs, EBEs, etc. On that score, you have no direct experience and no knowledge. You are at best generalizing from your limited experiences and rendering opinions that have no basis in fact. You never have had a Majestic/Cosmic clearance so how can you opine about the security procedures in place for these? >>Lazar had no problems >>when he worked at Los Alamos with his Q-clearance and disclosing >>this information to others. >Just how many phone books is he in? How long was he there. The >Meson Facility where he was a technician doesn't do classified >work. We know he was in at least one phone book as an employee under contract to Kirk-Myer to work at the Meson facility. I'm not familiar with the classification of the various projects in place at the Meson facility. Some may have been unclassified for university researchers from the University of California, while others classified. Those working in the nuclear industry and nuclear related technologies such as particle accelerators found at the Meson facillity require a Q-Clearance as a condition of employment. Lazar had to have Q-Clearance to have worked at the Meson facility as a physicist. >>It's only at S-4 with his Majestic >>clearance that he experienced problems when breaking secrecy. >>Your personal experiences are no guide to what whistleblowers >>such as Lazar have experienced. > >Really? You know, and I don't because I am not buying his >supposed whistleblower testimony? > >There was no secrecy to break at the Meson facility and we don't >have any evidence other than the say so of a liar that he was >employed at S-4. He did lie about Duxler, MIT, Cal Tech.... What makes you an expert in who does and doesn't lie? You have no academic training in assessing witness testimonies and rely on your own field work investigating UFOs, and the generalizations you draw from what people have to say based on available documentation. You jump to the conclusion that a person is a liar if no documentation exists to back up their claims. That's a flaw in your thinking since there are alternative explanations such as the security processes in place for some classified projects eliminate or distort documentation and evidence. My conclusion is that most of Lazar's education was scrapped from the records as a consequence of his whistleblower testimony. >>>><snip> >>>>Yes, it's true that in the interview Lazar's failed to remember >>>>the frequency of the gravity wave amplifier. He only could >>>>recall it was an odd frequency. He can be accused of having a >>>>poor memory which is very human. Let's all remember that Lazar >>>>claimed to work in a classified S4 project, not to possessing >>>>photographic memory. >>>He claimed much else like a thesis on magnetoaerodynamics... >>>none at MIT, like degrees from MIT and Cal Tech. No evidence and >>>plenty of evidence that he was at neither place. He named >>>William Duxler as having taught him physics at CCal Tech. Duxler >>>never taught at Cal Tech, but did have Bob in a class at Pierce >>>JC while he was supposedly at MIT a continent away >>We've already discussed these issues before and reach different >>conclusions: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/feb/m23-013.shtml >>>>>But now I am going to let you in on something which is more >>>>>precious and rarer than Element 115. The absolute and total >>>>>truth. >>>>Ok, so now we have the ridicule factor about to be used. Why is >>>>it that veteran UFO researchers can't appreciate the seriousness >>>>of Lazar's claims and try to depict anyone defending him as >>>>taken in by a huckster. George Knapp's investigations have >>>>provided ample evidence to support Lazar's testimony. >>>Sorry, that is more nonsense. Veteran researchers do appreciate >>>the seriousness of the claims and that is why we have spent so >>>much effort to try to verify them. They are not verified. I >>>happen to like George Knapp. He has provided no evidence of >>>degrees, a thesis, the existence of large quantities of a >>>stable element 115. He has not beeen able to show that Bob would >>>have qualified for MIT given his poor high school background (he >>>tried) or that he worked for LANL as opposed to Kirk Meyer as >>>noted in the phone book. >>You consistently fail to see the point that verification is not >>always possible when it comes to the specific claims made by >>whistleblowers. >So Bob lost his diplomas, somehow metamorphosed from the bottom >third of his high school class with one science course to being >in the top 20% and having taken a bunch of science courses As I said, I don't accept that the High School record you provided of Lazar is accurate. >>The security procedures in place for the kinds >>of projects Lazar claims to have worked at S4 ensure this. >These security procedures have nothing to do with the questions >at hand. Who is Bob Lazar besides being a bright imaginative >writer of science fiction with serious manual skills and a total >lack of concern with the truth.? This is nonsense. There is more to Lazar than this. If this is your conclusion after all the research and investigation that has been done on Lazar, then I do question your objectivity in the Lazar case. >>However, we have testimonies pointing to Lazar having worked at >>S4. Jim Tagliani who had a security clearance to work at the >>nearby Tonopah facility claims that he was approached by OSI the >>day after Lazar went public and told that he "S4 was off Limits" >>to Tonopah personnel. Why would OSI approach Tagliani if Lazar's >>story about S4 was contrived? >We aren't mind readers. The question isn't whether or not there >is an S-4.The question is where is there any evidence that Bob >is telling the truth. The answer is no. Your answer is based on an absence of evidence that satisfy the criteria you set. I've argued elsewhere that your criteria are inappropriate when it comes to Majestic/Cosmic compartmentalized projects and whistleblowers from these. >>>>For >>>>example, Lazar's claims regarding element 115 are turning out to >>>>be very consistent with the latest scientific advances in >>>>stellar astronomy. The critique of Dr David Morgan that Stan >>>>distributed to the forum had an important deficiency in it as I >>>>pointed out in my short article: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- >>>>Comment-31.htm . Dr Morgan dismissed the idea that metals >>>>heavier than iron could be formed in stable stars, yet I was >>>>able to quickly point out to Stan and others that Dr Morgan is >>>>wrong. >>>You are once again mistaken. The Lead stars don't establish any >>>abundance of elements above Lead (At. No. 82). Certainly Morgan >>>doesn't say heavy elements above iron aren't in stars.Of course >>>they are.He is talking of quantities of stable elements above >>>100 >>You are wrong. This is what Morgan said: "Heavy elements - all >>elements heavier than iron - are not formed during the normal >>life cycles of stars." >Read what he said... "normal life-cycle". That is where nuclear >transmutation, supernovas etc., come in. As Carl Sagan once said >"...we are made of star stuff." Please read the rest of his >critique of the new physics ala Lazar. You are distorting what 'normal life-cycle' means for stars. Morgan was clear that metals heavier than iron are only formed in the super nova process. He is wrong and showed he was not familiar with the latest thinking about how heavy metals are formed in the normal cycle before the supernova. I also read the rest of his critique and think his thinking about the possible energy produced by an anti-matter reactor is flawed. >>You ignore this error and now say that >>nothing higher than lead forms in stars. You are distorting what >>Morgan said in order to buttress your opinion that Morgan >>provided a slam dunk critique of Lazar. I pointed out Morgan's >>error and you continue to ignore that. Morgan's astronomy is >>wrong when it comes to the formation of heavy metals in massive >>stars. Why do you fail to acknowledge this error in your >>continued dissemination of Morgan's critique? >Stars are the only place elements are formed. Keep looking for >enough stable element 115 .. lead is element 82 and is stable. >See you in Hawaii,next week, Michael. >Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Reynolds Wrap From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:28:18 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:46:59 -0400 Subject: Reynolds Wrap Can it be true Rich Reynolds operates out of a store front post office box? Can it be true Rich Reynolds employees are bogus and just a bunch of whinny kids? Can it be true Rich Reynolds house ain't on a lake? Isn't Rich actually Ray? Is it true that Reynolds is known among legitimate media people as (unprintable) and gets his jollies on local cable television? Rich Reynolds has a stroke? What does this bode for Kimball? Curious Ufologists want to know!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 The Center For The Study Of Life In The Universe From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:53:06 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:49:56 -0400 Subject: The Center For The Study Of Life In The Universe Hi Everyone! Although we do not know the answers to the many questions we have about life in the universe (including how life started, how to define it* and even if the questions we ask are the right ones since we are obviously limited by our present knowledge, understanding and beliefs), there are some who are undaunted and curious enough to continue the search for answers, whatever they may be. One of these undaunted and curious individuals is Frank Drake, Director of the 'Center for the Study of Life in the Universe' and SETI pioneer who is famous for the Drake Equation that was first proposed and later named after him. You can read about Frank Drake's recent thoughts on this subject below and learn what other projects scientists are involved with (not all are listening for ETs with radio telescopes) in the search for proof of what they all believe is out there. I hope the search by this new generation of SETI scientists succeeds in answering one of mankind's great questions, "Are not alone in this universe?", in the affirmative. http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_drake_LITU_050602.html Nick Balaskas * for example, do all intelligent ETs "out there" consist of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Hale From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:57:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:52:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Hale >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 1:35:16 +0000 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >Hello, Roy. >As I have alredy made clear, I am arguing on my own behalf. Joe, You may say that, but you are carrying on a trend that has been Shown on this list for some years now i.e. anyone who dared Question J Randles, D Clarke, A Roberts, always had the wrath Of soldier ants who would appear from nowhere defending them to The hilt. Personally I felt these people were waiting to be Given a mention in the appendix of their upcoming books, just A wee mention would make anyone's day, kind of UFO street cred. >Of all the people who have posted in this thread, I can >understand your reason for holding this POV the most. You have >nothing to lose since you are not an active researcher, so it is >marginally more difficult for you to grasp the issues. I can >only suggest that you re-read the previous posts several times, >eventually it will dawn on you what it is all about. Oh to be called an active researcher, have I forgot the many times I wasted talking and writing to the great M.o.D, and then decided To get my hands dirty by just looking for the purpose of such Sightings in my area, of which I have been quite delighted and Elated in finding out one or two facts of useful UFO information, Of which is shared locally and internationally with other colleagues, mostly for the Reason of collating data into a defined and detailed analysis of What we are dealing with in our London and world skies, networked on a regular basis! Although I do appreciate you blowing your own trumpet, why not Many have done in the past, grab it whilst you can old boy, you may Just go down in the updates history! >No-one is forcing you to read the thread, why are you doing so >if it bores you so much? I just guess you and Don must have >masochistic tendencies.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:47:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:05:36 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) >Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:19:41 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >>In reference to the need to convert others to one's way of >>thinking, this too is more complex than we have time or space >>to cover in this or subsequent posts. But let me ask you >>this, if people stopped debating issues, what would we >>learn? What would the world be like today if Hitler was >>allowed to continue promoting his belief that all Jews >>should be exterminated? Should he have just been left alone >>in his ignorance (or stupidity) and allowed to carry on with >>his philosophies? If he was happy, why interfere? What about >>the Heaven's Gate cult (I studied this group and have an >>extensive file on them including original video footage I >>took with their permission)? Your perspective of leaving >>them alone in their ignorance appears to have been exactly >>what happened... with disastrous consequences. >Well, here you've crossed a line. Hitler was entitled to his >views but not to enact them because in so doing, he was hurting >a great many people, and that was not acceptable. If he'd just >carried on chundering under his breath, without doing anything, >then fine. >As for Heavens Gate, I find myself in a dilemma with this one as >my views I think are contrary to most and may appear perverse. >But I see nothing wrong with what happened there. There was no >compulsion as far as I'm aware for anyone to take their life and >all did so, unless you're going to say otherwise, voluntarily. >And yet our reaction is what a shame and what a waste. You are >judging them by the parameters laid down by what is considered >to be normal human behaviour, but who decided that? I accept >there are established patterns of human conduct and that we >consider what in affect was suicide to be disasterous, but the >point being it felt right for them at the time. I think we feel >threatened and challenged by people who do this sort of thing. >When you were there, what were your instincts about them? They were nervous the entire time (they spoke before a small group). When offered food, they ate as if they hadn't eaten in days. In reference to suicide, the law states that the only time an individual's rights can be set aside is when they may do harm to themselves or to others. The only gentleman in the group I interviewed left the cult shortly before the mass suicides. He later married and had a daughter (obviously didn't practice self-castration as did some in the cult). When he was interviewed for a news program years later, he said he was glad he left the cult and wished he had done so earlier. >>I disagree, Stuart. Instead of listening to Mr. King and >>discussing the issues at hand, he was attacked, berated and >>accused of racism. Instead of saying, "Mmmmm, perhaps we >>should study this." the usual distractions and finger pointing >>ensued. I don't care where one is from, the burden of proof >>is on those making the original claims. The issue remains >>under investigation. >The mask has slipped here Amy and your response is based on your >recollection of your personal distaste for the manner of John's >response. You've slipped out of objectivity. I didn't respond at >all to Kyle's post but John Velez virtually took my thoughts >right out of my mouth, or rather my brain. In other words, he >said what I was thinking. I might have said it differently, >probably, and maybe more kindly but in essence, I agreed with >him. The more interesting issue for me was Kyle's complete lack >or awareness of the impact of his own words. That was the real >issue. No mask other than what you are attempting to project on me. When I first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately thought, "He (John) is re-directing the attention away from the issues at hand rather than providing valid evidence to support the claims made." It's a tactic I've observed in use many times on this and other lists. Instead of addressing the issues, a diversion is created and the focus is gradually shifted away from questions that need to be answered. In this case, John and others claimed people didn't believe the claims of "fleets of UFO's over Mexico" because they were prejudiced against information from 'over the border'. I found nothing in Kyle's words to indicate any prejudice. In fact, he presented his case clearly and with no bias towards race, color, creed, gender or age. Kyle didn't need to be aware of any impact of his words because his words were respectful and neutral. Anyone can review his post at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m29-006.shtml The real issue was and still is: the burden of proof lies on those making the original claims. >>>And perhaps Amy, you might turn your spotlight on to the >>>other side, towards those who are perceived to be the models >>>of common sense in Ufological matters. What is their >>>pathology? And go on, be a devil, include yourself as well. >>Mmmmm, perhaps we should study this. >Perhaps not "should" but "must". Just to add some balance. Why would I need to look for pathology in those perceived as models of common sense? Do you consider common sense
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:11:58 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >>>Another possibility is John Keel's "ultraterrestrial" idea. I >>>know he bashes ufologists with as much glee and with much of the >>>same polemics as "skeptics" do, and that some of his reports may >>>be of dubious reliabilty. But I still find his >>>"ultraterrestrial" notion entertaining. >>Lan, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on "ultraterrestrials," >>unless you think - and I'm sure you don't - that demonology is a >>productive approach to UFO (or any other) study. >>As Keel stated openly on a number of occasions, in case readers >>couldn't have figured it out themselves, ultraterrestrials are >>demons by another name. <snip> >My only exposure to Keel was his Mothman book. I thought it was >a good yarn, apparently based on a real and very strange >incident. I don't know where fact leaves off and fiction begins >in that book. From what you and others have written, it sounds >like the facts usually give way to fiction pretty quickly in his >writings. Hi Lan and Jerry! Ufology is not yet at the stage where we can rule out any idea about UFOs or the intelligences behind them with a high degree of certainty. This includes the concept of "ultraterrestrials" or UTs - nonhuman beings that have not necessarily visiting us from distant planets but are from this world or are a part of our own "reality". Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply conclude that all UTs are demons. Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John Keel, Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in ufology does not mean that some of their ideas, including the concept of UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are not worthy of further consideration. Regarding John Keel's Mothman book and the movie that was based on it, two colleagues and I took time off work and drove down to West Virginia to find out for ourselves. We visited the places mentioned in the book (including nearby NRAO where Frank Drake conducted the first radio SETI project a few years earlier) and spoke to people that were living there at the time, including some witnesses that never shared their stories with anyone else before. Except for a large stuffed owl in the front window of one shop that someone had shot and killed and which a newspaper at the time said was the Mothman, the feeling of most people we
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:19:53 -0400 Subject: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way First off, there's been some confusion about this character, the Las Vegas Yahweh, a.k.a. Ramon Watkins, is not the same guy as the Yahweh Ben Yahweh cult leader racist. However, Ramon Watkins, if that is his real name, seems to be quite a character even so. Claiming a vow of poverty, if you look at his personal bio here, you'll see that he claims to make $150,000 a year, and promises to take pretty good care of any woman that would have him. See: http://personals.yahoo.com/prophetyahweh Now here's some links which pretty much blow away the rest of his claims. I'm still hearing that this may not be Prophet Yahweh in some of these photos, so I suggest we all keep an eye on this situation and see what else turns up. http://www.prophetyahweh.funtigo.com/ http://www.boingboing.net/ scroll down the page on this one http://www.computerclubhouse.org/programs/bbb/photoalbum.html http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1997/oct/d29-001.shtml http://personals.yahoo.com/prophetyahweh http://www.shilohbroadcasting.com/ I would be interested in any comments about this information, so please look it over carefully. Peace!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 3 Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:35:20 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? - Boone >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:39 -0400 >Subject: Re: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:16 EDT >>Subject: When It Hits The Fan What's The Plan? ><snip> >>We need a news source battle plan as it's best to be safe than >>sorry. >While some members of this List have belittled them, one of the >best ways to get any Earth-shaking news out fast, past the >mainstream media censors, is by way of the U.S. Patriot >Movement >broadcasters. They have a very substantial network of outlets >and a very well informed listenership. There are also many ham >radio operators (myself included) among their listeners. >I maintain contact info for a fairly large cross section of them >here in two places: >http://www.raven1.net/patriotradio.htm >http://www.multistalkervictims.org/patriotradio.htm >These folks are normally reluctant to include UFO news on their >shows, however, if you can provide them reasonable assurance >that what you are reporting is probably true and has major >implications for freedom and public safety, I'm confident they >will respond and help out. >They have international shortwave feeds (50,000 to 100,000 >watts), internet audio (and a few video) feeds, satellite radio >feeds, hundreds of microbroadcasters (once called "pirate >radio >stations") around mainly the U.S. The larger shows also have >some degree of audience on a few AM and FM stations around >the >U.S. >I include Jeff Rense with the Patriots. >(I won't debate here their sometimes dubious opinions, >because >their news extraction services from wire services, military >newspapers, the foreign press, FOIAs, and especially their >many >whistleblower guests make their programs worth listening to >_regardless_ of their opinions. For the record, I disagree >strongly with about half of their personal opinions.) >And they are _not_ "the militia." The Patriots believe in >restoring freedom and exposing government crime only by way >of >public education. The broadcasters express the opinion that >only >an informed public can successfully carry out the work of >exposing government crime, and restoring original >Constitutionally protected freedoms. Thanks Eleanor, I can always expect a true blue respnse from you :) Yes, I'm aware of the Patriots. I can truly say they're not the nutcases the press makes them out to be. I was quite surprised after meeting them years ago. I'm from 'old' American kin stock and we still have shootin' irons from as far back as the Revolutionary War. That network is expansive and sure they balk at UFO issues in general but that's because of the religious conflicts. I've had to recently come back to the realization on how hard headed people can be about religion. They'll cry out loud about how their religion is the best one and to prove it they'll kill everybody on Earth to prove it. That's what's come up with recent UFO events where people are concerned a new religion will emerge if some UFO incident is validated. I can understand since most religions for some strange reason have something to do with people or beings who live in the 'heavens' and outer space etc. So of course we get the 'IDiot' response to Ufology that it's purpose is to replace or destroy religion. Some people actually cannot rise above that unconcious mind level so we're left with billions with the reasoning power and will to confront oppression at the level of a 'Simpsons' regular. As more people get internet access and communication systems expand and cameras accessible and prolific something is going to break soon. As new technologies emerge greed will overtake those who are oppressing information and someone is going to spill the beans. Nothing like a disgruntled employee to bring to an end an evil empire :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Memphis Flying Saucer Group Looks To The Skies From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:09:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:09:03 -0400 Subject: Memphis Flying Saucer Group Looks To The Skies Source: The Commercial Appeal - Memphis, Tennessee http://tinyurl.com/cx6u8 June 2, 2005 Flying Saucer Group Looks To The Skies Extraterrestrials By Lindsay Sonsky Special to East Memphis Appeal At age 7, Mark Gilley had an experience that would change the way he looked at the sky forever. In the backyard of his home in Central Gardens, it was spring and nearing dusk when his aunt called to him. "She said 'Come here and see if you see what I see,' " recalled Gilley. He remembers spotting an illuminated object like a teardrop moving across the sky. He watched until it disappeared behind a cluster of trees. At 58, Gilley is employed Downtown at the Clovernook Center for the Blind on St. Paul Avenue, where he helps those who have lost their vision become independent. He still believes it was a UFO he saw that day. He's not alone. As a longtime member of the Memphis UFO Discussion Group, which meets at the Poplar-White Station Branch Library at 5094 Poplar on the second Wednesday of each month, Gilley is in agreeable company with many others who believe Earth is being visited by extraterrestrials. Attracting up to 30 people to meetings, the Memphis group has been together for nearly 25 years. Gilley is also the state director of Western Tennessee for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), a 3,000-member international organization that investigates sightings. Manning the region hotline (the phone number dials his cell phone), the East Memphian anticipates calls that send him and Marcia Prince out of town for closer inspections. Prince, also an East Memphian, is assistant state director of Western Tennessee and chairman of the Memphis UFO Discussion Group. But that doesn't happen very often. Most are hesitant to admit they might have spotted something unearthly, said Prince. "I call it the 'giggle factor.' You say 'UFO' and people giggle," she said. But as ridiculous as some may think it is, every year tens of thousands of people claim to spot UFOs, she said. The folks who are certified by the state group to look into such cases are called field investigators. Gilley and Prince are investigative trainees, who will soon be taking the official MUFON examination, which will cover 35 scientific fields. Instructed by certified investigators, they learn how to take steps such as conducting interviews and collecting soil samples. Their first assignment sent them to North Mississippi, where a resident captured a photograph of a sphere in the sky. "It looked like a worm hole," said Prince, who sent it on to a MUFON specialist who ended up discrediting it as a product of the way the film was developed. Other sightings have sent them investigating occurrences all over Memphis and in areas such as Berclair, Bartlett, Whitehaven and Shelby Farms. The trainees are investigating a rural town outside Memphis, which they wouldn't disclose, but which has had several accounts of UFOs and cases of dead cattle. Like Gilley and Prince, many "Ufologists" don't believe that the government or mainstream media are revealing everything or reporting fairly about extraterrestrial encounters. That leaves believers scouting out information from publications such as MUFON's monthly journal and books and local radio shows. A big part of the Memphis UFO Discussion Group is keeping members updated on sightings, studies and investigations. They do this by handing out articles and hosting guest speakers from scientists to abductees. The Memphis UFO Discussion Group had booth at the MidSouth Con (the annual Science, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, and Gaming convention) hoping to reach a range of open-minded folks. "We believe this is the truth and we want to prove that it's out there," Prince said. To report a UFO or extraterrestrial encounter, contact Gilley at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 The Saga Of Yahweh ben Yahweh From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:18:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:18:35 -0400 Subject: The Saga Of Yahweh ben Yahweh Source: Free Speech ["A monthly illustrated newsletter for supporters of America's only uncensored patriotic radio program, American Dissident] Voices."] http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs0109b.html September 2001 - Volume VII, Number 9 The Saga of Yahweh ben Yahweh by Dr. William Pierce An Associated Press news story recently caught my attention. The story was about the release from prison this week of a Black religious leader, who calls himself Yahweh ben Yahweh. His name actually is Hulon Mitchell. He's a former Black Muslim, and, in fact, he ran a Black Muslim mosque in Atlanta for a while in the early 1970s, until he was accused of sexual improprieties with underaged Muslim girls and of dipping into the collection plate. He dropped out of the Nation of Islam, where he was known as Hulon X, and in 1978 founded his own church, the so-called Nation of Yahweh, with a religion based on Judaism. He calls his followers "Black Hebrew Israelites" and tells them that they, rather than the Jews, are the "chosen people" ordained by God to rule the world, as described in the Old Testament. He took for himself the name Yahweh ben Yahweh that's Hebrew for "God, the son of God." So why should we be interested in yet another megalomaniac religious cult based on Judaism? Well, the thing of interest to us about the Nation of Yahweh is the initiation requirement Hulon Mitchell established for the elite, inner circle of his church, the so-called "Brotherhood." The requirement was the murder of a White person, and the bringing to Mitchell of some evidence of the murder, such as an ear or even the head of the victim. In fact, Mitchell preached to his whole congregation that the killing of White people, whom he calls "blue-eyed devils," is pleasing to Yahweh. By the time the police finally wound up Mitchell's race-murder cult in November 1990 and packed Mitchell off to prison, his followers had butchered and mutilated at least 23 men, women, and children, 14 of them in Miami alone. Some of the victims were recalcitrant members of his own church, and the Associated Press story doesn't give a racial breakdown, but a figure that I've seen elsewhere puts the number of White victims at 16. Mitchell spent a little over 10 years in prison. That works out to about eight months for the murder of each "blue-eyed devil." He was released on parole earlier this week. You didn't hear about it? You didn't see anything about it on CNN or network television? You shouldn't be surprised. It's not the sort of news that the bosses of the controlled media want you to know about. There was a story about it last Saturday in the Washington Post, but the entire thrust of that story is the infringement of Mitchell's civil rights by the conditions imposed on him by the parole board that released him. The Washington Post article is not headed "Black Cult Leader Who Ordered Ritual Murder of Whites to Be Released." Oh, no! A headline like that would be considered "racist" by the people who run the Post; they are afraid that it might make White readers wary of Blacks. It might even lead some readers to ask questions, such as, "Why has this nutcase Black murderer been turned loose?" although I myself am not so optimistic about the ability of White Americans to figure out who their enemies are and react appropriately. The actual head on last Saturday's Washington Post story is "No Freedom of Religion for Yahweh," and the subhead is "Parole Commission Limits Contact with His Followers." There's no mention at all in the story about the initiation requirements for the "Brotherhood" or of the ritual murder of "blue-eyed devils": just one cryptic mention, at the end, of Mitchell playing with the severed ear of a White victim. The story deals almost entirely with Mitchell's contesting of the conditions imposed on his parole by the parole board. They told him that he couldn't have any further contact with the more than 1,000 members of the Nation of Yahweh. His lawyers have gone to court to have the conditions on his parole removed. You know, I remember the same sort of reluctance on the part of the controlled news media to report the details of Mitchell's activities 10 years ago, when he was arrested, charged, tried, and sent to prison. There was minimal publicity, as if the media bosses were embarrassed by the whole affair. It's worth our noting that Mitchell got his idea for the initiation requirement into his so-called "Brotherhood," the inner circle of his church, from a similar operation by the Nation of Islam during the time he was a member of that group. I talked about this in a broadcast a couple of years ago, but it's worth repeating. During a six-month period in 1973 and 1974, when Mitchell was a high-ranking member of the Nation of Islam, an elite group inside the Nation of Islam called the "Death Angels" murdered several hundred White men, women, and children. The exact number will never be known because many of the victims were so-called "street people": runaway teenaged girls on drugs, hippies, and the like people who weren't missed when they disappeared. There were many of these pitiful lost souls on the streets of San Francisco in the 1960s and the 1970s: products of the great "counterculture" revolution promoted on American university campuses by Jews like Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. Their corpses often were hacked up and dumped in the ocean or buried. But the San Francisco police who tracked the Death Angels counted 15 very tangible victims from all walks of life, not just street people: 15 murdered White people, and eight others who were seriously injured during attempts to murder them. While they were looking for the killers, the police referred to the series of murders as the "Zebra" killings: all Black on White. Eventually the Death Angels were broken up when San Francisco police arrested eight of them. Four of them were put on trial, and after the longest trial in California history--a year and six days--they were convicted on all counts. The transcript for the trial fills nearly 14,000 pages and fills 141 volumes. During the trial, one witness, Anthony Harris, a Death Angel himself, spent 12 days testifying to the horrifying details of Death Angel operations. The Nation of Islam taught that the killing of a "blue-eyed devil" is pleasing to Allah, just as Hulon Mitchell later taught that it is pleasing to Yahweh. Inside the Nation of Islam, there was an elite organization whose members had especially pleased Allah. That was the Death Angels. To become a Death Angel one had to murder nine White men or five White women or four White children. In 1974, the San Francisco chapter alone of the Death Angels had 15 accredited members. Some of the White victims were taken to a loft used by the San Francisco chapter of Death Angels, where they were tied to chairs and tortured to death in ways far too gruesome to describe here. Harris testified that he was given the butchered remnants of one of these kidnapped White torture victims, all trussed up in a plastic sheet like a turkey, and told to drive the package to a bluff overlooking San Francisco Bay and throw it into the water. And the killing wasn't confined to San Francisco or even California. Other chapters of the Death Angels murdered Whites in New York, in Georgia, in Florida. The word spread among Black Muslims everywhere, and it is very difficult to believe that Hulon Mitchell did not get the idea for his "Brotherhood" and its initiation requirement from the Death Angels. As with the Death Angels in California, many of the ritual murder victims chosen by Mitchell's Black Hebrew Israelites were the easiest White victims: people who wouldn't be missed, including young runaways, street people, low-class Whites who lived in Black neighborhoods or who socialized with Blacks. Well, as I said earlier, in November 1990 the police finally caught up with Hulon Mitchell, also known as Yahweh ben Yahweh, and charged him and his followers with 14 murders in the Miami area. And now he's out of prison again, and the only question is whether or not he'll be permitted to run the Nation of Yahweh again. A couple of much more interesting questions for us are, first, why was this hate-crazed mass murderer of White people turned loose under any conditions? Ten years for sending his followers out to murder 23 people or 14, if we count only those in Miami, and then turned loose on us again! Imagine that this murderer was a neo-Nazi leader who sent his followers out to kill Jews as initiation requirements, bringing back an ear from each victim as proof to their leader that they had done as ordered. Do you think that there's any chance the government would be turning him loose, simply imposing on him the condition that he no longer could be a neo-Nazi leader? Can you imagine the howl you would hear from the media if that did happen? There would be no end to it. There would be tearful interviews with relatives of the victims on network television every day. The media would put on an even bigger circus than the one they put on after the dragging death of a Black ex-convict in Jasper, Texas, three years ago. And we would hear from the media a non-stop chorus of "hate, hate, hate" and "hate crime, hate crime, hate crime, racism, racism, racism." You know that's the way the media would react. You've already heard it from them often enough. Why, then, the almost total silence about the release of Hulon Mitchell, alias Yahweh ben Yahweh? Why is neither the word "hate" nor the phrase "hate crime" used even once in the Washington Post story about the controversy over the conditions of his release? Why is the general public almost completely ignorant of who this man is and what he did, even if it happened 11 years ago? Why is the public just as ignorant of the hundreds of "Zebra" murders committed by the Death Angels? Why do the controlled mass media never say anything about these atrocious murders of White people by Blacks? It's not that there's a shortage of facts; as I said, there are 14,000 pages of horrifying testimony from the Death Angels trial. Could it possibly be that the reason for the silence of the media is that the murderers are Black and the victims are White, and that fact contradicts the media party line the Jewish party line that Blacks are the good guys and Whites are the bad guys, and that in interracial conflict Blacks are the victims and Whites are the aggressors? Could that be it? Before I tell you about another recent news story that may help to answer these questions, I'll mention that if you have an inquiring mind and want to dig up the facts on the horrendous "Zebra" killings that inspired Yahweh ben Yahweh, a good place for you to start is with Clark Howard's 1979 documentary book Zebra. That book will lead you to other sources. Although it is out of print, you should be able to find it in a larger library, if it hasn't been purged by the minions of Political Correctness. The other recent news story is from Denver's Rocky Mountain News, which is one of Colorado's major newspapers. It's about preliminary court proceedings late last month against a gang of teenagers in Colorado Springs who murdered another teenager and his grandparents in a rural area 50 miles west of Colorado Springs. There are several things about this story that make it potentially interesting at a national level, and yet it has not been touched by the news media outside of Colorado. Is it possible that the media bosses feel that they've already given enough attention to teenaged murderers in Colorado with the saturation coverage of the shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, less than a hundred miles from Colorado Springs? I really don't think that's their reason for suppressing this story outside of Colorado, but I'll let you be the judge of that. The murders took place at the beginning of this year, and the murderers were arrested during the past few months, as the police gathered evidence. Charged with murder now are Isaac Grimes, 16; Jonathan Matheny and Glen Urban, both 18; and Simon Sue, 19. Their trials are scheduled for later this year. Grimes, Matheny, and Urban are White. Simon Sue is a non-White immigrant from Guyana, in South America, primarily of Indian ancestry. He is the local gang leader of a paramilitary, anti-racist organization with roots in Guyana. He calls his organization Operation and Reconnaissance Agents, but it usually is identified in news reports from Colorado Springs only by its initials, OARA. Sue preached to the other teenagers about the evils of White racism, and he ordered them to commit several burglaries to steal guns and money to be used for fighting racism. One of their victims is 15-year-old Tony Dutcher, who was a schoolmate of theirs in Colorado Springs. On previous occasions, Tony had invited his classmate Isaac Grimes to the rural home of his grandparents. During one of these visits, Grimes had decided that the grandfather, 60-year-old Carl Dutcher, was a White racist, and he reported this back to Sue and the other members of OARA. Sue decided that Carl Dutcher should be killed because of his racial beliefs. During the New Year's school vacation at the beginning of this year, Grimes visited Tony at his grandparents' rural home. The two boys camped out in a lean-to behind the Dutcher home. During the night, Grimes crept up behind Tony with a knife and cut his throat as he lay in his sleeping bag. Police said that Tony's throat had been cut all the way to the spinal column, and he bled to death. Grimes then went into the Dutchers' house and awaited the arrival of another member of the anti-racist gang, Jonathan Matheny. When Matheny arrived, he shot Carl Dutcher with a rifle. Dutcher's wife, 58-year-old JoAnna, barricaded herself in a bathroom, but Matheny shot her through the bathroom door. Grimes finished them off by slitting their throats. Now, I don't think that it's necessary for me to explain to you why the Jewish bosses of the national news media decided that this was a story you didn't need to hear about. What's indisputable is that it was a horribly atrocious series of murders with several very newsworthy aspects, and that if you live outside of Colorado you didn't hear a peep about it until I told you about it a moment ago. Suppose that the murderers, instead of being members of an anti- racist gang led by a non-White, had been White racists, and suppose that their victims had been chosen because one of them favored racial mixing. Do you believe that the media bosses would have suppressed the story of the murders or decided that it just wasn't newsworthy? Of course, stories of Black-on-White crime are suppressed by the media every day. I chose this particular story because it not only illustrates the way in which news is selectively reported by the controlled media in order to support their party line, but it also illustrates the concrete results of the anti-White brainwashing conducted by the media and the schools. We might with good justification blame the murders of the Dutcher family on the Washington government's insane immigration policy, which permits resentful, hate-filled, non-White trash such as Simon Sue into this country. With even better justification we can blame the murders on the racial propaganda campaign of the media, the government, the schools, and the churches. That propaganda campaign pumps into the heads of young White people the lies that all the races really are the same under the skin, that the only reason members of all races can't live happily and productively together is the divisive effect of White racism, and that Whites who don't want to live and interbreed with non-Whites are hate-filled and irrational and are the cause of all interracial strife. The propagandists don't come right out and say it, but they certainly imply that these White racists, who are holding back racial progress and making things unpleasant for everyone, ought to be done away with in some way. That certainly was the message that teenagers Isaac Grimes, Jonathan Matheny, and Glen Urban absorbed from television and from their school teachers. That was the message that led them to obey the orders of the hate- filled mongrel from Guyana and to murder the Dutcher family. Interestingly enough, it's also the message that played a major role in the Columbine massacre in Littleton, Colorado, in April 1999. The two teenaged murderers at Columbine High School, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, were fervent anti-racists who fantasized on their Internet Web site about torturing and murdering White racists. Where do you think they picked up those sick and poisonous ideas? Who put the idea into their heads that we live in a "racist" society and that racists ought to be killed? If you remember, the spin put on the Columbine massacre by the Jewish media bosses right after the killings is that Harris and Klebold were neo-Nazis and racists, even though one of them, Klebold, is a Jew. It wasn't until later, when investigators began looking into the private lives and the Internet postings of the two killers that it came out that they were not racists but rather were fanatical anti-racists. But that fact never received much publicity, even though several pungent excerpts from their Web site were reported in the New York Times. The average American couch potato still believes that the killers were White racists who deliberately targeted Blacks in their massacre, because that was the lie propagated by the media immediately after the massacre, and it was never withdrawn. The point of all of this is that the controlled mass media in America are consistent and deliberate in their policy of deception. Whether it was their intense anti-apartheid and anti- White propaganda against Rhodesia and South Africa back when those were both White countries, followed by their deafening silence about the horror of what's happening in those two countries today under Black rule; or their silence about the atrocious series of "Zebra" murders of "blue-eyed devils" in this country by the Death Angels and then by Yahweh ben Yahweh's Black Hebrew Israelites; or the spin that they put on their reporting of the Columbine massacre in 1999; or their suppression of the story of the butchery of the Dutcher family in Colorado this year, they consistently suppress or minimize news that might undermine their multiculti, egalitarian propaganda. They consistently suppress or minimize news of non- White aggression against Whites. They slant the news with the deliberate intention of making White people feel apologetic or even guilty for defending themselves against non-Whites. They deliberately attempt to disarm us morally and keep us off guard. They deliberately conceal from us information that would lead us to question their policies or their motives. They deliberately deceive us with the intention of making us believe that things are rosy wherever their policies have been put into effect, such as in South Africa and Rhodesia, and that everything will be rosy here when their open-border immigration policies and their plans for more "hate crime" and "speech crime" laws have had time to take effect. They are consistent and deliberate in their use of the media to deceive us because their aim is to weaken us and to destroy us, the way they already have weakened the White people of South Africa and destroyed the White people of Rhodesia. The Jews are our misfortune. The Jews are the eternal enemies of our people. c. 2001 National Vanguard Books Box 330 Hillsboro WV 24946 USA A cassette recording of this broadcast is available for $12.95 including postage from:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Remote Viewer Debunks Yahwe UFO Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:28:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:28:47 -0400 Subject: Remote Viewer Debunks Yahwe UFO Sighting Source: ArriveNet.Com [ArriveNet.com is a unique interactive media portal designed for companies and individuals to submit and archive their pro- active press release and editorial messages] http://press.arrivenet.com/ent/article.php/647160.html Thursday - June 02, 2005 Aaron C. Donahue Debunks Latest UFO Sighting In Las Vegas By Prophet Yahweh. This and future UFO evocations by Prophet Yahweh for the cameras will be staged. Distribution Source : ArriveNet Los Angeles, CA. -- (ArriveNet - Jun 02, 2005) -- Psychic viewers Aaron C. Donahue and his sister Jennifer Sharpe Sunday exposed the current and planned Las Vegas UFO call by 'Prophet Yahweh' next month as a blatant hoax designed to ridicule and discredit the Luciferian movement during their May 29th Internet radio show. Donahue said he believes his radio show and his message has upset some very powerful Christians who are going out of their way to stop the movement through the use of some highly technical theatrics using laser beams and projected images. He said this group got their story portrayed in an ABC News special and on Art Bell�s Coast-to-Coast Radio Show in recent days. Donahue and Sharpe both used their skills as advanced remote viewers to examine the strange jumping light in the sky as it appeared on the ABC special. They said they found that the image was no more than a projected image from three separate beams, all coming from the ground. "The reason they chose Las Vegas is because the place is a circus. They have the technology to make it happen," he said. Donahue said he did a mind probe of Prophet Yahweh and found that the man is sincere. This confused him for a while. "He isn�t lying to you. He sees UFOs," Donahue said. "In fact, I really like this guy and I don�t want to belittle him. He really believes he is evoking UFOs." The problem is that the prophet is being used in a massive fraudulent trick designed to stop the Luciferians. The biggest insult is that Prophet Yahweh puts a Christian slant to his story. He prays before evoking the ships. "Prophet Yahweh is a small fish," Donahue said. "It has been very easy to manipulate him. He is a pawn in a very big game. Someone has heard me and they do not like what I have to say. I am stunned at just how far they are willing to go." Even though he has been tricked, Yahweh has been well rewarded financially for his part in this hoax. Donahue said that after his appearance on Coast-to-Coast and his television special, a lot of people paid his price of $7.95 to see his coming performance. It is an old story, said Donahue. "Those who can control your eyeballs can control your brain." Aaron can be heard every Sunday on his Internet radio show at www.RadioAaron.com. Archives of past shows are available to download for free. Aaron's official website is located at www.UMMO.cc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Meeting Stanton Friedman From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:36:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:36:56 -0400 Subject: Meeting Stanton Friedman Source: LTVNews.com - Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada http://www.ltvnews.com/viewcolumn.php?id=1635 Thursday, June 2 2005 Beyond The Stars - Special Series Larry Henderson LTVNews.com Columnist Beyond The Stars Meeting Stanton Friedman A Special Report By L. Henderson Unidentified Flying Objects or UFOs, have intrigued us for generations. The man, synonymous with the topic, is, Stanton Friedman. It was a pleasure to conduct an interview with him, discussing at length his role in informing the public of what is going on in the world of UFOs. Talking to Mr. Friedman certainly is the high point of my career, as I have long been an armchair enthusiast of the UFO mystery. In the study of the unknown, the unexplained or the unidentifiable, credibility of those presenting the facts is often questioned. Friedman has the credentials, delivering his answers sincerely and without hesitation. For the record, he holds a BSC and MSC in Physics from the University of Chicago. Lecturing at over 600 colleges and to 100 professional groups on the topic, Flying Saucers Are Real, his engagements have taken him to 50 states, 9 provinces and 14 countries. Along with appearing on hundreds of radio and television programs, Friedman has published over 80 papers on the subject and was the original civilian investigator of the Roswell, New Mexico incident. UFO Magazine in Leeds England presented Friedman with a Lifetime Achievements Award in 2002, while that same year Canada broadcast a documentary titled, "Stanton T. Friedman Is Real!!" In 1980 Friedman decided to relocate from California and set up residence in New Brunswick where his wife's family lived. Her being from a family of nine children, it made sense to be closer to them, as, "we had no family out there" (California) he explained. He points out that New Brunswick was a "great place" to raise his son and two daughters. Then, there were a few other benefits. "Our house in California had tripled in value but no way to get our money out and stay there. I have never regretted the move," he said. He added that he, "sometimes misses the traffic, the smog, the crime, the earthquakes, but has learned to live without them." Although he has reached the age of 70, he, "won't truly retire, as I keep getting invitations and I want to write another book." A new edition of his 1996 book, TOP SECRET/MAJIC is set for September release with a new chapter added. Friedman will continue to lecture, "As long as people invite me and I feel I can provide a solid program", he said. Renowned UFO Expert, Stanton Friedman In his website biography, he states that the subject of UFOs represents a "Cosmic Watergate", adding that none of the "anti UFO arguments stand up to careful scrutiny." Unidentified Flying Objects, he insists, is "the biggest story of the past millennium", and suggests that the governments have been covering up evidence for the past 58 years. As to when we can expect the truth to be revealed, he said, "I have no reason to think the truth will be released anytime soon unless a reporter wants a Pulitzer Prize for blowing the lid off the Cosmic Watergate." He maintains that evidence is concealed because, "Governments want to stay in power" and "don't want the people to start thinking of themselves as earthlings instead of Americans or Canadians. Can't tell your friends without telling your enemies", he added. The movie, Fire In The Sky portrays the encounter of Travis Walton and his crew of tree cutters with an unexplained craft. Friedman has met Travis and appeared on television with him. "I stand behind him 100%", he stressed, regarding Walton's sincerity. Friedman has been involved with UFOs since 1958. Why is he so passionate and what drives him? "I can't think of a more important story than visits to earth by aliens and the government's covering up the facts. I enjoy being on the stage, can use my background in advanced propulsion systems, my knowledge of security, and can give voice to my answers to the Why questions that so many want. Peoples responses are very heartwarming", he explained. Citing his ability to "stimulate people to become involved" as his number one accomplishment, he points out that he was the original civilian investigator of Roswell, the first to publish about the star map seen in the famous Hill case, won several debates on UFOs, pioneered document research, coined the term, "Cosmic Watergate," and he says, "shown that trips to the stars do NOT violate the laws of Physics." Although we more often hear about the American sightings and occasional encounters, there are many recorded Canadian occurrences that are worth talking about. Friedman mentioned two sightings, which intrigue him. They are The Falcon Lake Encounter and Shag Harbour, which we will be fodder for another article. He explains that we hear less about Canadian sightings do to a combination of things such as our, "much smaller population, fewer investigators, and less promotion." In discussing his recent interview with Peter Jennings on ABC, Friedman was less than pleased. The show, which aired in February, was less than what was anticipated from a professional journalist. In his column in MUFON Journal, (see, www.stantonfriedman.com), Friedman takes to task the treatment and obvious negativity shown by the Jennings presentation. Quoting from part of his column, "I am really puzzled about certain aspects of the Peter Jennings Productions UFO special seen on ABC on February 24, 2005." Farther along he questions where the show calls him a "promoter" and refers to Roswell as a "myth." In summary, Stanton Friedman said, "I think most people find UFOs interesting, but they are too fearful of ridicule to say so. Most people believe in UFOs. Unfortunately most people think most other people don't. I check my audiences after my lectures. Typically 10% will have seen a UFO but only 10% of them, will have reported what they saw." Stanton Friedman continues to be in demand as the lecture circuit beckons him to Hawaii in June for a Conference, and Roswell New Mexico July 1-4. Following this, he appears in Denver that same month and in Virginia Beach December 1-3. There are likely to be other dates announced. For those in Canada wishing to catch his presentation, there will be an opportunity to see Friedman, in a forum in Toronto, September 25th, at Convocation Hall, University of Toronto beginning at 9am. Stanton Friedman is highly intelligent and easy to talk to. In our discussions, he was quick to answer, didn't hesitate, appeared very confident, and never wavered in his beliefs. How far out on a limb will the average guy go to prove the courage of his convictions? Friedman decided long ago to carry the banner for research, and open communication regarding UFOs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 They Party Among Us From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:42:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:42:55 -0400 Subject: They Party Among Us Source: Las Vegas City Life - Las Vegas, Nevada http://tinyurl.com/73jfc They Party Among Us Skeptics, patriots and believers descend on Rachel to celebrate Area 51's 50th birthday By Skylaire Alfvegren "I've heard it whispered, an aside, that it is a place where whales can fly... and horny toads, not land-locked bound, streak through the air, faster than sound... So if you ever hear of this place, please hope it exists in time and space, for what they do there can't be told, but freedom's light, they there uphold." By the light of a blazing campfire, that patriotic paean to Area 51 received whoops and hollers this past Saturday, as celebrants gathered to commemorate the Golden Anniversary of everyone's favorite "secret" military base. The infamous "cammo dudes" in their white Jeeps turned a deaf ear on the spirited rendition of "Happy Birthday," sung a stone's throw from the Groom Lake Road border. Aviation buffs and UFO devotees from all points in Nevada and as far afield as Ohio and Wisconsin tripled the population of nearby Rachel for the weekend, participating in the "Friendship Campout" organized by German-born Las Vegan Joerg Arbu. The clean-cut software developer runs Dreamlandresort.com, considered the premier Area 51 website. "What intrigues me is the secrecy, and the mystery surrounding the black projects," he said, as many a beer was hoisted in the honor of good old-fashioned American know-how. "I wanted to show people with firsthand evidence that what goes on there has nothing to do with UFOs, government conspiracies and such nonsense, but is still highly interesting and fascinating." Area 51, a 6-mile-by-10-mile "operating location" adjacent to the Nellis Test Range and overseen by the U.S. Air Force, was never intended to be a permanent base, but has played an instrumental role in national security nonetheless. Its runway, the longest on Earth, has landed spy planes such as the U-2, SR- 71 "Blackbird" and B-2 Stealth bomber. "I've been telling people for the past decade that what I see out here is going to be standard aircraft 40 years from now," said Bill Whiffen, a Rachel resident who carves flying saucers out of wood in his spare time. Not surprisingly, the interest in Area 51 has shifted since 9/11 from musing on back-engineered spacecraft to sacrosanct patriotism. "The intention wasn't to create a secret base," said Norio Hayakawa, who has replaced Area 51 conspiracy theories with terrestrial nuts-and-bolts. "It became a secret base because of certain things. I'm a supporter of a strong national defense and this place is the utmost facility. "My belief is that it is all our technology." The secrets of Area 51 got more attention when a group of former workers contended they were made sick by shoddy environmental policies practiced at the base, including the open-pit burning of stealth materials. But in 1995, President Bill Clinton, and later President George W. Bush, have issued executive orders allowing the Air Force to keep secret happenings at the base if classified secrets would be disclosed. That's made lawsuits all but impossible to prosecute. Tall whites, star seeds No mentions of Project Snowbird or Project Aurora, and little speculation on Bob Lazar and John Lear (who drew attention to Area 51 in the 1980s), could be overheard at the camp site -- but just up the Extraterrestrial Highway, a largely separate group of celebrants filed into the Rachel senior center for talks on alien and human hybrids and the "Tall Whites" one former Nellis employee claims to have encountered while working at Indian Springs. "Albert Einstein, Angelina Jolie, David Bowie, Mother Teresa... are all Star Seeds," said Richard Boylan while holding up a crude drawing of a reptoid creature by one of the "Star Kids," his name for earthly children genetically modified by extraterrestrial visitors. Boylan believes humanity is in the midst of a major transformation. "We're realizing that a dominance-oriented society doesn't work," he said, while engaging those gathered in a remote viewing exercise. "We're all at least two generation E.T. hybrids," he continued, expressing a wish for a special school (a la X Men) for the differently gifted youngsters. "If not for the intervention of the Star Visitors, we'd all be eating bananas and dragging our knuckles on the ground." Whether toasting a half-century of aviation innovation or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Lazy Guide To Net Culture: Little Red Men From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:46:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:46:54 -0400 Subject: Lazy Guide To Net Culture: Little Red Men Source: The Scotsman - Edinburgh, Scotland http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=3D605102005 Thu 2 Jun 2005 Lazy Guide To Net Culture: Little Red Men Stewart Kirkpatrick skirkpatrick at scotsman dot com If you want to appear like you=92re at the cutting edge of net culture but can=92t be bothered to spend hours online, then never fear. Scotsman.com=92s pathetic team of geeks, freaks and gimps will do the hard work for you. While you sip wine, read a book or engage in normal social interaction, they will burn out their retinas staring at badly designed web pages and dodge creeps in chatrooms to prepare for you: Scotsman.com=92s lazy guide to net culture. Sometimes I like to raise my eyes from the lonely wastes of the scotsman.com bunker and gaze at the heavens above. Of course all I see is the cracked grey concrete ceiling flecked with odd yellow fluid seeping from the IT Re-education Room above (don't ask). But in my mind's eye I see the stars, those tiny sparks of fire twinkling in unending blackness =96 a metaphor perhaps for our brief lives. This may sound like maudlin ramblings that would shame the shallowest of adolescents but that=92s only because it's maudlin, adolescent rambling. It gets worse, much worse. After a few cups of our truly dreadful canteen coffee (based I am reliably informed on a neurotoxin harvested from Amazonian frogs used by certain tribes for every purpose imaginable save that of making hot drinks), I find myself musing about intelligent life somewhere above me. (I mean in the sky, not in scotsman.com towers.) Before I go any further I should point out that this is not going to be some delusional rant about how our interstellar brothers and sisters are "among us" already. Nor am I going to go over badly photoshopped images of weather balloons to "prove" that the secret world government sold us out to our alien masters decades ago. (Though if necessary I have 2,000 "I for one welcome our new alien overlords" t-shirts ready for a quick sale if it does indeed turn out that the secret world government sold us out to our alien masters decades ago.) Finally I promise not to use the phrase "anal probe" at any point during this piece. I am however going to point out a survey of 1,000 Americans carried out by the University of Connecticut's Centre For Survey Research and Analysis in association with the SETI Institute (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) and the National Geographic Channel. Rather than send you off to the sites of these organisations, instead I refer you to the press release printed in full on cosmicparadigm.com - partly because it tickled me to do so but primarily because I could find neither hide nor hair of the survey on the sites of those organisations. Among the results was one truly depressing statistic. It was not that 80 per cent of Americans think it is likely that the intelligent life forms on other planets are more advanced than us. From the country that gave George W Bush a second term, this is not surprising. What plunged me into a deep black hole of despair (do you see what I did there?), was that 7 out of 10 Americans think the intelligent life forms on other planets would be similar to humans. There I was, staring at the dripping goo above me, dreaming of a socialist paradise on Arcturus, where nobody starves, where there is no greed, where every individual is devoted to exploring space - both inner and outer - together in peace. All things in common, all people one and all that. A society based on love and a fearless desire to enjoy God's multifaceted, infinite creation. Now, thanks to 1,000 randomly surveyed citizens of the Rome de nos jours, my daydream has been shattered. Instead now all I see is a polluted, belligerent planet populated by overweight, badly-dressed yahoos wobbling down gravity-free malls lined with soulless corporate outlets selling deep fried patties of genetically modified salty gristle and identikit jeans made by slave labour in the textile mines of Hoth. Ho-hum. Well, I suppose I can console myself with what might have been if we had been more technologically adventurous, thanks to Transportation Futuristics, an exhibit of weird and wonderful vehicular ideas that never quite made it: This exhibit examines some of the efforts to address transportation needs in ways that didn=92t quite get off the ground literally or figuratively. Are the designers simply ahead of their time? Are the failures attributable to an infrastructure that never anticipated such a development? Was there ultimately no way to make the new idea work financially? Whatever the answer to those questions, I simply know my life would be much better if I came to work on a "flying saucer bus",
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Sasquatch UFOs Land In Seattle From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:50:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:50:50 -0400 Subject: Sasquatch UFOs Land In Seattle Source: The Seattle Times - Seattle, Washington http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2002296987_ufo03.html Friday, June 3, 2005 Forums On Sasquatch, UFOs land in Seattle By Mark Rahner Seattle Times staff reporter For devotees of the bizarre, it's the weekend equivalent of the old McDLT sandwich that kept the hot and cold sides separate =97 but make that the McDET. For its fifth year, the Northwest UFO/Paranormal Conference is adding a Seattle Sasquatch Symposium =97 scheduling the UFO/paranormal material for Saturday and the Sasquatch stuff for Sunday. The featured guest is Robert Gimlin, of the widely scrutinized 1967 Patterson-Gimlin footage that some believe shows a Sasquatch strutting in a forest and looking back over its shoulder. It all takes place from 10 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. both days in the Northwest Rooms of the Seattle Center. The cost: $12 per speaker or $50 a day =97 with discounts for members of the Seattle Museum of the Mysteries, which is sponsoring the event; $140 buys the whole shebang plus banquet buffets both nights. See www.seattlechatclub.org/2005Con.html for the full details and schedule. Other guests include: - AGHOST =97 Ghost Hunters of Seattle Tacoma. - Dr. Nick Begich, mind-control expert. - Peter Davenport, director of the Seattle-based National UFO Reporting Center. - Budd Hopkins, alien-abduction author. - Dr. John Bindernagel, a wildlife biologist asking, "The Sasquatch: Is it North America's Great Ape?" There will also be several other guests from both sides, a theremin demonstration, a Bigfoot panel and more. And if Sasquatch turns out to be an alien, there might be a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Man Finds Strange Ring At His Land From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:58:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:58:40 -0400 Subject: Man Finds Strange Ring At His Land Source: Hood County News - Granbury, Texas http://tinyurl.com/aqpha Wednesday, June 01, 2005 Mysterious circle Man finds strange ring at his land by Pete Kendall On the science fiction channel, UFO stands for unidentified flying object. On Temple Hall Highway, the UFO is unidentified, fungal and odd. Bruce Lustenhouwer�s acreage features a black, brown and gray circle of stuff. The ring, almost perfectly symmetrical, is 16 feet across. To the naked eye, it appears burned into the grass. Like something from Outer Space. Or Outer Erath County. "It could be some of those little bitty people operating a nuclear collider under the ground," Lustenhouwer said, grinning. He said he has no intention of digging down in order to find out. "I don�t like shovels that much." He first noticed something eerie Sunday morning. "It was a black semicircle, about a third of a circle," he said. By Tuesday morning, when observed by media, it was full-fledged with another circle beginning to form in the middle. "It was black on Monday," Lustenhouwer said. "(Tuesday) morning, it had changed colors to gray and dark brown. About a third of it is brown now." It could be a fungus. It could be a mold. "It�s a powdery substance in the grass. I�ve never seen anything like it before. I�ve had a patch of mold but not a circle. It doesn�t appear to be killing the grass. The grass growing through it looks healthy. It�s not attacking any one kind of grass. It�s on different grasses." Neighbors have been stopping by to ogle the oddity. What do they say? "That it�s strange," Lustenhouwer said. Extension agent Marty Vahlenkamp said his office receives reports of mold and fungi after wet weather, of which there has been a moderate amount lately. Mold and fungi can grow in a circle, he said. "Some do, and some don�t." Lustenhouwer has grappled with another environmental issue lately. "The fish were dying in the stock tank last week till we put a pump in. I think that was because of oxygen starvation from the moss on the water."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Signs Of The Times Conference 2005 From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:37:42 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:13:51 -0400 Subject: Signs Of The Times Conference 2005 Oxford Talks is preparing its final Signs of the Times conference. Three down-to-earth speakers who have a had lifelong interactions and experiences with other worlds and their denizens bare their souls. Each determined to share and encourage TRUTH. Speaking will be Jason Andrews in his first public speaking engagement in the UK following his incredible performance in Laughlin at the International Congress. Also a name to watch, 'Bagoll the Traveller', extraordinary earth poet, dream traveller and mystic. 'Bagoll' held the audience spell bound at his debut last March. Described by one lady as "from another dimension" his second appearance is due to several requests. The third speaker is Ellis Taylor, writer, researcher, website editor, psychic and clairvoyant. Ellis's experiences were the catalyst for the formation of the Australian Close Encounters Resource Network, the internationally regarded support group set up by Mary Rodwell, in Perth Australia. For more information please go to: http://oxfordtalks.homestead.com/signsofthetimesaugust05.html Warm regards Diane Harrison
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:21:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:15:20 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>Lan, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on "ultraterrestrials," >>>unless you think - and I'm sure you don't - that demonology is a >>>productive approach to UFO (or any other) study. >>>As Keel stated openly on a number of occasions, in case readers >>>couldn't have figured it out themselves, ultraterrestrials are >>>demons by another name. >Ufology is not yet at the stage where we can rule out any idea >about UFOs or the intelligences behind them with a high degree >of certainty. This includes the concept of "ultraterrestrials" >or UTs - nonhuman beings that have not necessarily visiting us >from distant planets but are from this world or are a part of >our own "reality". >Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed >out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply >conclude that all UTs are demons. >Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John Keel, >Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in ufology >does not mean that some of their ideas, including the concept of >UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are not worthy of >further consideration. I'm afraid, Nick, that I have no sympathy whatever for the view that all things, however ill considered, however removed from reason, logic, and empirical evidence, however based in dubious claims (including exposed h oaxes), should be considered. There's a phrase this sort of thinking -- if that's the word -- brings to mind: so open-minded that one's brains fall out. I prefer to keep my brains inside my head and behind a critical filter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:25:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:18:06 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed >out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply >conclude that all UTs are demons. Just as it would be wrong to conclude they are all angels. >Except for a large stuffed owl in the front window of >one shop that someone had shot and killed and which a newspaper >at the time said was the Mothman, the feeling of most people we >spoke to was that this entity was very likely demonic rather >than extraterrestrial. Yes, Nick, but what is that really saying? Isn't that just defining one unknown in terms of another? We don't know what ultraterrestrials are, or if they even exist. We do not know what extraterrestrials are, or if they even exist. We don't know what demons are, or if they even exist. Aren't we just chasing our tails in circles, circular arguments, when we try to define any of these by citing any other(s).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:20 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Sparks >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:03 +0100 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:31:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:08:27 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs ><snip> >>Very interesting post, Martin. Might it be that Smith, >>Hillenkoetter, Souers, and Vandenberg having all been DCIs, and >>all being part of MJ-12, kept matters in hand by setting things >>up as described, above. Need-to-know would have prevented >>letting in Chadwell, etc. >Could be, Stan. I honestly don't feel I know enough about the >whole MJ-12 issue (sorry - one of many holes in my education) to >come down definitely on one side or the other. But given the >premise it could make sense. Well then that theory is saying that alleged MJ-12 member DCI Walter Bedell Smith shut down Chadwell's UFO investigation plans because he was interfering with MJ-12 or getting to close to the "truth" and had no "need to know." If so, Smith would have shut Chadwell down in Sept 1952 when Chadwell began pressing for a government-wide scientific investigation of UFO's controlled by the CIA - instead of controlled by MJ-12, thus posing a threat to alleged MJ-12 operations (as you know I do not believe in the existence of any such "MJ-12" which I believe is a fraud concocted in the imagination of AFOSI disinformation agents). Chadwell kept pressing for the same scientific UFO project month after month in every way he could think of and thus threatened
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: Reynolds Wrap - A Moderator Apology From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:02:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:02:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Reynolds Wrap - A Moderator Apology Yesterday, while talking on the phone and doing List mail, I inadvertantly posted a submission by Wendy Connors that contained a line that, when I read it, appalled me. Distracted, I thought I'd removed it in my text editor, before forwarding it to the List. It wasn't until this morning that a response to the post alerted me to my screw-up. To Rich Reynolds, my deepest apologies - Wendy's submission was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way - From: Tim Davie <drwho_who.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:07:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way - >From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way >First off, there's been some confusion about this >character, What does this have to do with being a fake and shooting white
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:41:41 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:11:35 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John >Keel, Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in >ufology does not mean that some of their ideas, including the >concept of UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are >not worthy of further consideration. <snip> >Except for a large stuffed owl in the front window of one shop >that someone had shot and killed and which a newspaper at the >time said was the Mothman, the feeling of most people we spoke >to was that this entity was very likely demonic rather than >extraterrestrial. My question is, how would anyone know the difference between UT/ET and demons. First I think we can eliminate the inference of demons to begin with because they come from religious belief, so you are basically perpetuating a myth with another [IMHO] myth. I don't think you can be on solid ground arguing against any ET implication by explaining them away as religious dogma or symbolism. It may be, in fact, that religion stems from some distant historical contact with ET in the first place. We can argue fairly convincingly that ET exists somewhere in the universe but to argue that demons exist because they are spoken of in the bible or used in a religious context has no scientific
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: Classified ETV/EBE Projects & Unauthorized From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:42:14 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:23:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Classified ETV/EBE Projects & Unauthorized Whistleblowers, Classified ETV/EBE Projects and Unauthorized Disclosure Aloha All, Given the recent discussion I've had on the List it's become clear that there is a quite a gap between those who advocate investigating whistleblower claims concerning highly classified projects involving ETVs/EBEs and those arguing that there isn't the hard evidence or documentation to merit since an investigation. I think some of the key issues have been discussed in cases of whistleblowers such as Bob Lazar, Phillip Corso, Clifford Stone, Robert Dean, etc. It seems that the underlying disagreement stems from what can and can't be done in terms of security procedures set up to maintain secrecy in such projects. It is clear to me that there has been little research done on how classified projects are set up and security procedures set up for those by UFO researchers. This is quite surprising given that the UFO phenomenon has been going on for five decades and it's well known that various national security agencies and military departments classify this information since it poses a threat to national security. The lack of discussion of security procedures set up for classified projects involving EBEs/ETVs is a major omission and I hope that this can shortly be rectified by the investigative abilities of many researchers on this forum. To start off discussion what I offer below is an overview of the classified projects concerning ETVs/EBEs in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States and how these differ in security procedures to other less classified projects and information. This should stimulate discussion so we can know what parameters are in place that makes the testimonies of many whistleblowers with otherwise solid credentials, so difficult to assess. For those wanting to understand how classification occurs in the US, I recommend the following Congressional report by the Moynihan Commission which details the current classification system in the US: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html Current classification policies of the US Army are described in Army Regulation (AR) 380-5 which is available online at: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar380-5.pdf First it's important to distinguish between the Confidential, Secret and Top Secret classifications currently used for information the release of which is deemed to damage national security in the U.S., and the various compartments created for more restricted information. CONFIDENTIAL is applied to information or material the unauthorized disclosure of which could be reasonably expected to cause DAMAGE to the national security. SECRET is applied to information or material the unauthorized disclosure of which could be reasonable expected to cause SERIOUS DAMAGE to the national security. TOP SECRET is applied to information or material the unauthorized disclosure of which could be reasonable expected to cause EXCEPTIONALLY GRAVE DAMAGE to the national security. Next it's important to understand the different types of compartments and projects that require 'special controls' and/or a "need to know". Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) involves information and material that requires SPECIAL CONTROLS for restricted handling in the compartmented systems in which they are located. Special Access Programs require a clear 'need to know' in addition to the above classifications of Confidential, Secret and Top Secret. In addition to the above we have Q-clearance which is required for all those working in the Nuclear Industry. Q-Clearance relates to SCI and SAPS that pertain to nuclear technology and information. Information about the above classifications is available in the public realm. Classified programs and information are subject to oversight either through Congressional committees and/or Executive oversight through the Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO) which is attached to the National Security Council. There are severe penalties for those disclosing unauthorized classified information and these are determined by internal procedures that are spelt out in various manuals governing SAPs and SCI in the various branches of the military and government agencies. The procedures governing penalties over unauthorized disclosure are subject to the congressional/executive oversight procedures in place. However, Congress has shown that in the case of waived SAP/SCI it exercises little effective oversight and this was identified as a major problem in the Moynihan Commission Report. A 'waived' SAP/SCI is so sensitive that only eight members of Congress (the chairs and ranking members of the four intelligence [or defense] committees divided between the House of Representatives and Senate) are notified of a waived SAP/SCI without being given any information about it. This means that for SAPs and SCI that falls into the waived category, there is no effective scrutiny by Congress of the security procedure in place for these and the penalties in place for unauthorized disclosure. So the idea that Congress has effective oversight over waived SAPs/SCI is a myth. The security procedures in place for SAPs/SCI are not under any effective Congressional oversight. While in theory, oversight coordination occurs in the ISOO set up in the NSC that issues an annual report to the President; the power to approve or terminate a CAP/SCI lies with the respective intelligence community and Department of Defense committees and executive officers. In general, Executive Office oversight of SAPs/SCI has been described as "nothing more than a sop used to placate anyone who questions the propriety of an administration's covert action policy." As far as whistleblowers of egregious policies that threaten public interest are concerned, there is a procedure whereby whistleblowers can typically chose to disclosure such practices either to Congress or to the Inspector-General in the agency or department where these occur. While whistleblower protection is not great for those disclosing egregious practices in the way SAPs and SCI are run, it exists in theory for those programs where Congress is informed of these. In the case of waived SAPs/SCI, Congressional protection for whistleblowers is non- existent since such programs are not acknowledged to exist. This means that a whistleblower from a waived SAP or dealing with waived SCI has no congressional protection since it is a crime to acknowledge the existence of such an SAP or SCI. Also, the penalty procedures in place for these have no Congressional oversight and the executive oversight exercised by the ISOO is questionable at best. This finally takes me to SAPs or SCI that deal with extraterrestrial vehicles (ETVs) or extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs). These are compartmented into projects using various titles such as 'Majestic', 'Majic', 'Umbra' or 'Cosmic' and at the very least are waived SAPs/SCI that the four relevant committee chairs and minority leaders in Defense or Intelligence are informed about but not given any written information on. It is more likely that due to the covert funding used for these waived SAPs/SCI, that even the congressional chairs are not informed of these due to the true number of these SAPs/SCI whose budgetary needs go far beyond congressional estimates of appropriated 'black budget' funds used for waived SAPs/SCI - see my black budget report: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0401/S00151.htm Leaked documents such as the Truman Memo (Sept 24, 1947); Eisenhower Briefing Document (1952); and the Special Operations Manual (1954) reveal the existence of the 'Majestic' classification category - see: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/ In another leaked 'Majestic' document, the "Majest Twelve Project: 1st Annual Report" it is stated that the "national security status of the MAJESTIC operation exceeds that of the H- bomb development" (Robert Woods, ed., The Majestic Documents, p. 110). There are a number of programs within the 'Majestic' classification compartment all of which fall into the category of waived SAPs/SCI the existence of which is a secret. Without any Congressional oversight of these, the penalties and security procedures set in placed to prevent unauthorized disclosure of classified information are not publicly known. From the testimonies of a number of whistleblowers who have emerged to reveal classified information concerning how classified projects involving ETVs/EBEs are run (e.g., Clifford Stone, Dan Sherman, Bob Lazar, Dan Morris, Don Phillips and Daniel Salter) and from leaked 'Majestic Documents', the following practices designed to enforce secrecy are allegedly in place: 1. Discrediting individuals making unauthorized disclosures; 2. Manipulation of the press in order to prevent coverage of 'unauthorized disclosures' by individuals 3. Employees/servicemen have to sign away their constitutional rights when contracted/serving in compartmented programs involving Majestic/Cosmic secrecy classifications; 4. Removal of public documents recording educational or employment history of individuals making unauthorized disclosures; 5. Official denial of the employment history or service record of individuals making unauthorized disclosures 6. Intimidation of independent witnesses who can confirm the identity, educational qualifications or work history of individuals making unauthorized disclosures 7. Using MKULTRA mind control techniques such as Electronic Dissolution of Memory and behavior modification techniques to prevent unauthorized disclosures; 8. 'Elimination' of individuals making unauthorized disclosures Leaked documents indicate that the SAPs/SCI that fall into the Majestic classification compartment require the enforcement of extremely strict security procedures. The Eisenhower Briefing Document for example states: "the Majestic-12 Group remains of the unanimous opinion that imposition of the strictest security precautions should continue without interruption". These leaked documents lend support to whistleblower claims of draconian security procedures in place to deal with projects that fall into the compartment security classifications created for UFO/extraterrestrial affairs: Majestic; Cosmic; Umbra, etc. Confirmation of these whistleblower testimonies is made especially difficult since the existence of the SAPs/SCI they are disclosing officially remain secrets the disclosure of which presumably leads to "exceptionally grave damage" to U.S. national security. The US Congress therefore is hamstrung in seriously considering or providing protection to whistleblowers disclosing egregious practices that genuinely threaten public interest in the way these projects are run and the information contained in them. For Congress to consider such whistleblower testimony would mean confirming the existence of SAPs/SCI the disclosure of which arguably would lead to "exceptionally grave damage" to U.S. national security. There is clearly a tension between conflicting imperatives in what is described so far in terms of congressional responses to whistleblower testimonies. On the one hand is the imperative of serving the broader public interest of learning about waived SAPs/SCI dealing with ETVs/EBEs and the draconian security procedures in place to prevent unauthorized disclosure of such programs/information. On the other hand there is the reasonable risk posed to national security by the unauthorized release of such information. In the midst of this tension created by conflicting imperatives lie a number of exceptionally brave individuals who have come forward to disclose information concerning waived SAPs/SCI dealing with ETVs/EBEs. The rights of these individuals as need to be recognized despite the tension between the public interest they claim to serve and the national security interests that proscribe unauthorized disclosures. There is no legal protection for whistleblowers coming forward to make unauthorized disclosures of classified information concerning ETV/EBE related SAPs/SCI. Whistleblowers that come forward do so with the genuine conviction that are serving the broader public interest and they have a legitimate concern that the broader public interest is not being met by the current policy of maintaining a secrecy using the "strictest security precautions." Currently draconian security procedures are in place to enforce secrecy concerning programs and information the existences of which are national secrets. There is an urgent need for public debate over the most appropriate policies for dealing with the information and technologies currently hidden in waived SAPs/SCIs concerning ETVs/EBEs. Important steps in such a debate are to have such information enter the public realm, and for whistleblowers disclosing such information be given 'a fair hearing' despite the inherent difficulties in confirming their testimonies. Finding some balance between the respective needs of protecting 'national security', promoting the 'public interest', and recognizing the 'civil rights' of whistleblowers is urgently required. Seriously considering the testimonies of whistleblowers will help find a balance that will serve both the broader public interest and genuine national security needs. UFO researchers can play an important role in finding such a balance by giving serious attention to the claims made by whistleblowers from ETV/EBE related classified projects. Without such support, the efforts of these whistleblowers is unlikely to change what appears to be an unresponsive national security system that assesses the potential damage posed by the release of such information purely from its own assessment of what constitutes "exceptionally grave damage" to national security without sufficient input from the U.S. Congress or U.S. citizens.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:31:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:25:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Rimmer >From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:57:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 1:35:16 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>Hello, Roy. >>As I have alredy made clear, I am arguing on my own behalf. >Joe, >You may say that, but you are carrying on a trend that has been >Shown on this list for some years now i.e. anyone who dared >Question J Randles, D Clarke, A Roberts, always had the wrath >Of soldier ants who would appear from nowhere defending them to >The hilt.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 4 Re: Remote Viewer Debunks Yahwe UFO Sighting - From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:32:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Remote Viewer Debunks Yahwe UFO Sighting - >Source: ArriveNet.Com >[ArriveNet.com is a unique interactive media portal designed for >companies and individuals to submit and archive their pro- >active press release and editorial messages] >http://press.arrivenet.com/ent/article.php/647160.html >Thursday - June 02, 2005 >Aaron C. Donahue Debunks Latest UFO Sighting In Las Vegas By >Prophet Yahweh. >This and future UFO evocations by Prophet Yahweh for the cameras >will be staged. >Distribution Source : ArriveNet >Los Angeles, CA. -- (ArriveNet - Jun 02, 2005) -- Psychic >viewers Aaron C. Donahue and his sister Jennifer Sharpe Sunday >exposed the current and planned Las Vegas UFO call by 'Prophet >Yahweh' next month as a blatant hoax designed to ridicule and >discredit the Luciferian movement during their May 29th >Internet >radio show. <snip> >Aaron's official website is located at www.UMMO.cc. I don't know if Yahweh is legit or not. It seems to me like there might be more than one. In any event when I saw the web address UMMO.com (Which is in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: The Saga Of Yahweh ben Yahweh - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:45:22 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:03:56 -0400 Subject: Re: The Saga Of Yahweh ben Yahweh - Boone >Source: Free Speech >["A monthly illustrated newsletter for supporters of America's >only uncensored patriotic radio program, American Dissident] >Voices."] >http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs0109b.html >September 2001 - Volume VII, Number 9 >The Saga of Yahweh ben Yahweh >by Dr. William Pierce <snip> What in Sam Hill does this article have to do with UFOs? Did someone mistake this yahoo for the controversial 'Prophet Yahweh' a totally different person? Any religion or offshoot of a religion or cousin twice removed from a religion that espouses racial superiority is fulla more crap than a constipated elephant. Case-in-point, Hurricane Andrew. Didja notice how it kicked everybody's ass regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, political affiliation, and whether or not they liked Mary Ann or Ginger? If God's natural forces could give a hoot what you are I don't either.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:52:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:05:18 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:41:41 -0300 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished <snip> >We can argue fairly convincingly that ET exists somewhere in the universe but to argue that demons exist because they are spoken of in the bible or used in a religious context has no scientific value. It has only "blind faith" value. Hello Don, Jerry, others: I switch channels the instant I hear somebody talking anything like demonology, and UFOs, in the same breath.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:57:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:07:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:31:38 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:57:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 1:35:16 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>>As I have alredy made clear, I am arguing on my own behalf. >>You may say that, but you are carrying on a trend that has been >>Shown on this list for some years now i.e. anyone who dared >>Question J Randles, D Clarke, A Roberts, always had the wrath >>Of soldier ants who would appear from nowhere defending them to >>The hilt. >Unfair! J. Rimmer, J. Harney, N. Watson and P. Rogerson demand >equal soldier ants! Right... like there _wasn't_ an abundance of them, already, with four co-confederates handily listed and busily twitching their antenna or gnashing their mandibles... <LOL>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:41:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:27:47 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:47:27 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:05:36 -0400 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research > >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research > >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:19:41 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research > <snip> Hello All, Oops, Amy went and attributed a bunch of negative and manipulative stuff (that came out of her_own_ head) to me, and now I find that I have to jump in just to set the sadly mistaken Ms. Hebert straight. If I may... Stuart wrote: >>The mask has slipped here Amy and your response is based on your >>recollection of your personal distaste for the manner of John's >>response. You've slipped out of objectivity. I didn't respond at >>all to Kyle's post but John Velez virtually took my thoughts >>right out of my mouth, or rather my brain. In other words, he >>said what I was thinking. I might have said it differently, >>probably, and maybe more kindly but in essence, I agreed with >>him. The more interesting issue for me was Kyle's complete lack >>or awareness of the impact of his own words. That was the real >>issue. Ms. Hebert responded: >No mask other than what you are attempting to project on me. When I >first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately thought, "He >(John) is re-directing the attention away from the issues at hand >rather than providing valid evidence to support the claims made." >It's a tactic I've observed in use many times on this and other >lists. Instead of addressing the issues, a diversion is created and >the focus is gradually shifted away from questions that need to be >answered. I very strongly resent the very negative implications of your 'capsule analysis' of my motives in responding to Kyle's post. For someone who purports to know so much about psychology, you demonstrate a genuine blind-spot and lack of insight when it comes to yourself! Did you miss class the day they covered, "Projecting on others?" Amy, you say that _you_ interpreted my actions as being based on a conscious effort on my part to "re-direct attention away from the real issue" and then you proceed to label it a "tactic." Again, implying intentional deceptiveness. What you should be paying attention to is how you view others who are total and complete strangers to you. How you 'project' your own very negative and manipulative motivations and 'tactics' onto that blank canvas. You do not know me personally. You have _never_ interviewed me in order to ascertain whether I am as full of guile as you claim I am. I'm not the scheming, and deceptive person you publicly paint me to be. (Again, without _knowing_ me at all!) It's so easy for you to imply that I am the kind of manipulative liar you want me to be because it all fits in with your belief that I am lying about my UFO/abduction experiences. You have just never been courageous enough to say so to my face. Your way is like this, to 'imply' that my motives are low, dishonest and manipulative. Where does all that come from? Well gee, let's see, you said: >>first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately >>thought, You "immediately thought"... and then it's followed by an attribution of the lowest and most dishonest motives you can conjure out of your very 'black' imagination. It's not me, Amy. All that negative crap is coming from you. Out of _your_ head. Not mine. You are only showing everybody how you already have your mind made up about me and how that low estimation you have of me, that 'filter' you have set up, colors everything connected with me. Amy. look into your own 'motives' and 'tactics.' Personally, I don't operate that way, on that 'level.' Talk to people who have known me personally for many years about whether they have any knowledge or experience with me being the kind of manipulative and deceptive person 'you think' I am. If you actually do poll the folks that know me, you'll rapidly find yourself a contingency of one. You're wrong about me. Back off. Or I will consider it 'fair
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Martian UFO - A Meteor? From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:35:54 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:36:34 -0400 Subject: Martian UFO - A Meteor? Hi Everyone! Remember that mysterious streak in the Martian sky taken by Spirit's camera over a year ago which Don Ledger brought to our attention (see URL below)? Well, if we are to accept the latest explanation given in the June 2 issue of 'Nature', this UFO is now an IFO. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m12-004.shtml From its orientation in the sky above the Martian horizon after the Sun had set, space scientists initially suspected this UFO was the Viking Orbiter 2 (assuming it was still orbiting Mars almost 3 decades later) after they first dismissed, for obvious technical reasons, the likelyhood that it was a meteor. Now, the authors of the paper in 'Nature' suspect it was indeed a meteor, possibly a fragment of comet Wiseman-Skiff. Of course, just because they claim to have "very good agreement" that this streak in the sky was a meteor from the suspected but never previously observed annual Martian meteor shower that they believe must be associated with this comet, their reasoning is certainly not conclusive evidence let alone proof. For this reason this Martian IFO remains an unidentified flying object or UFO as far as I am concerned. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050601_mars_meteor.html If future data does prove the existence of this meteor shower (it should put on a show again one Martian year later but do not hold your breath since not all periodic comets that cross Earth's orbit produce meteor showers), the case that this Martian UFO was a fireball from this shower will have been strengthened. If this Martian UFO is positively identified as a meteor and since we do not have any images of UFOs in deep space (at least in the public domain), this will certainly further weaken the belief held by some rational thinking ufologists such as Jerome
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:27:40 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:37:48 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:21:03 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:23 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >>>>Lan, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on "ultraterrestrials," >>>>unless you think - and I'm sure you don't - that demonology is a >>>>productive approach to UFO (or any other) study. >>>>As Keel stated openly on a number of occasions, in case readers >>>>couldn't have figured it out themselves, ultraterrestrials are >>>>demons by another name. >>Ufology is not yet at the stage where we can rule out any idea >>about UFOs or the intelligences behind them with a high degree >>of certainty. This includes the concept of "ultraterrestrials" >>or UTs - nonhuman beings that have not necessarily visiting us >>from distant planets but are from this world or are a part of >>our own "reality". >>Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed >>out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply >>conclude that all UTs are demons. >>Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John Keel, >>Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in ufology >>does not mean that some of their ideas, including the concept of >>UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are not worthy of >>further consideration. >I'm afraid, Nick, that I have no sympathy whatever for the view >that all things, however ill considered, however removed from >reason, logic, and empirical evidence, however based in dubious >claims (including exposed hoaxes), should be considered. >There's a phrase this sort of thinking -- if that's the word -- >brings to mind: so open-minded that one's brains fall out. >I prefer to keep my brains inside my head and behind a critical >filter. >Jerry Clark Oh c'mon Jerry, you honestly don't believe in ultraterrestrials? If I did not see your name at the end of the reply I would have assumed it came from one of my more skeptical colleagues who use the exact same reasoning to dismiss our beliefs in ETs! If you want to keep your brain tightly in your head, that's fine, but allow it to function properly by evaluating all evidence even it is in conflict with your present biases or beliefs. This is very unscientific and will not help to bring us any closer to the correct answer(s) to this mystery. To your credit though, you have admitted to being wrong in the past "and I am sure you don't" try to intimidate others to accept that your views are right and theirs are not. The reason I placed the "s" in brackets is because I believe there is more than just one answer to the UFO phenomenon and we should not try to frustrate oursleves by only looking for facts in support of this single answer. We have centuries more empirical evidence for the reality of ultraterrestrials (which by definition includes demons) than we do for extraterrestrials. Of course, we would only have to prove just one case to establish the reality of UTs and ETs but even if we do prove the existence of ETs it would not rule out UTs or vice versa.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:22:35 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:38:50 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:25:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed >>out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply >>conclude that all UTs are demons. >Just as it would be wrong to conclude they are all angels. >>Except for a large stuffed owl in the front window of >>one shop that someone had shot and killed and which a newspaper >>at the time said was the Mothman, the feeling of most people we >>spoke to was that this entity was very likely demonic rather >>than extraterrestrial. >Yes, Nick, but what is that really saying? Isn't that just >defining one unknown in terms of another? We don't know what >ultraterrestrials are, or if they even exist. We do not know >what extraterrestrials are, or if they even exist. We don't know >what demons are, or if they even exist. Aren't we just chasing >our tails in circles, circular arguments, when we try to define >any of these by citing any other(s). >I think we need some working definitions of our terms if we are >to have any meaningful discussion. Greetings Bob! I agree definitions are important but we should be careful in just what changes to make. For example, if we broaden the term ETs so that it includes UTs (intelligences from this world or reality, including time travellers or higher dimensional beings) logic may force us to identify some of the ETs behind many UFO close encounter cases as being us - a very secret group of humans that is not known to governments or the public which is engaged in activities not necessarily in the best interests of us. Although the ET explanation is, as I suspect, the most accepted or popular one among ufologists today, it is also the most unlikely one since we have not spotted UFOs in deep space (only on or near the Earth) and our SETI friends have so far failed to find them dispite the fact that the majority of them, including the public of this space-age generation, strongly believe that they are out there. Since we do not know what UFOs are (I mean only those UFOs that fail to be reasonably explained or are postively identified) and we do not know for sure that ETs do exist as you say, why not use "ultraterrestrial" (UT) instead of "extraterrestrial" (ET) as the most inclusive term when dealing with the UFO mystery? Since we have failed to understand UFOs when we tried to study them in isolation of everything else (although our parents and ancestors once seemed to know what they were!), we must become more open minded and consider all the facts, including those that may lead to answers that are not popular or incompatible with our beliefs. Do you have any suggestions in making the subject of UFOs more meaningful and relevant to the public than through the promotion of the narrowminded and possibly outdated views held by a large part of ufological community (who I believe would have been much
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:00:40 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:39:54 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:41:41 -0300 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:19:04 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished <snip> >>Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John >>Keel, Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in >>ufology does not mean that some of their ideas, including the >>concept of UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are >>not worthy of further consideration. <snip> >>Except for a large stuffed owl in the front window of one shop >>that someone had shot and killed and which a newspaper at the >>time said was the Mothman, the feeling of most people we spoke >>to was that this entity was very likely demonic rather than >>extraterrestrial. <snip> >We can argue fairly convincingly that ET exists somewhere in the >universe but to argue that demons exist because they are spoken >of in the bible or used in a religious context has no scientific >value. It has only "blind faith" value. Hi Don! I suspect that many of us will be in for a big surprise when we finally get to see the big picture, which includes UFOs. Is the neighbour who tells you about his/her "alien abduction" more trustworthy and carries more scientific value than another neighbour who tells you about his/her "encounter with demons"? I personally know of both such neighbours. What I find very interesting is that family members of these neighbours who were also involved at the same time or had identical but separate experiences, interpret what happened to them differently and are often not in argeement. Who is right? If some alien abductions are encounters with demons (or some other UT) and vice versa how can we distinguish between the two? It is a mistake to accept alien abduction explanation because we can argue fairly convincingly that ETs exists and reject the encounter with demons explanation - which was just as real to the experiencer - because demons are spoken only in the Bible or are used in a religious context. There are some that claim that alien abductions, crop circles, unexplained images on video or film that were not noticed at the time (BLUFOs), etc. have nothing to do with UFOs or have an extraterrestrial explanation. If the UFO phenomenon is just a small part of this reality, maybe everything is related in some way or another. Although I am not a John Keel fan (I have read and kept the many strange and thought provoking books he wrote in the past), if we are not arrogant with our views and truly honest with ourselves,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:18:14 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:43:32 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:47:27 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:19:41 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research ><snip> >They were nervous the entire time (they spoke before a small >group). When offered food, they ate as if they hadn't eaten in >days. In reference to suicide, the law states that the only >time an individual's rights can be set aside is when they may >do harm to themselves or to others. Doing harm to others is one thing but the desire to hurt yourself is something else and I don't think the law has much justification in interfering with a person's wish to end their life. They may indeed not be thinking clearly and they may cause untold pain to others as a result of their decision but there has to be a line drawn somewhere as to how far the State meddles. I'm sorry if that appears cold hearted. I'm sure there will be many on this List who have been touched by this problem, as have I, but in the end, my body and mind are my own. >>>I disagree, Stuart. Instead of listening to Mr. King and >>>discussing the issues at hand, he was attacked, berated and >>>accused of racism. Instead of saying, "Mmmmm, perhaps we >>>should study this." the usual distractions and finger >pointing ensued. I don't care where one is from, the burden >>>of proof is on those making the original claims. The issue > >>remains under investigation. You're talking about the detail and I'm talking about the context. Kyle's response, taken out of context, was not in any way blighted or slanted. But he was reacting in anger to a post directed to James Smith from John Velez. Perhaps I misinterpreted it but it struck me as a knee jerk guilt reaction. <snip> >No mask other than what you are attempting to project on me. >When I first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately > thought, "He (John) is re-directing the attention away from >the issues at hand rather than providing valid evidence to >support the claims made." It's a tactic I've observed in use > many times on this and other lists. Instead of addressing the > issues, a diversion is created and the focus is gradually >shifted away from questions that need to be answered. In this >case, John and others claimed people didn't believe the >claims of "fleets of UFO's over Mexico" because they were >prejudiced against information from 'over the border'. I >found nothing in Kyle's words to indicate any prejudice. In >fact, he presented his case clearly and with no bias towards > race, color, creed, gender or age. Kyle didn't need to be >aware of any impact of his words because his words were >respectful and neutral. Anyone can review his post at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m29-006.shtml >The real issue was and still is: the burden of proof lies on >those making the original claims. Then we're miles apart on this Amy and I doubt we're likely to agree. I don't interpret Kyle's response in the same manner that you do and neither do I think that the real issue is just the burden of proof etc. Of course that's important but other things were happening in those exchanges, which, if I picked up on it and John did too, then they would have been evident to some others as well. >>>>And perhaps Amy, you might turn your spotlight on to the >>>>other side, towards those who are perceived to be the >models of common sense in Ufological matters. What is their >>>>pathology? And go on, be a devil, include yourself as well. >>>Mmmmm, perhaps we should study this. >>Perhaps not "should" but "must". Just to add some balance. >Why would I need to look for pathology in those perceived as >models of common sense? Do you consider common sense >pathological? Oh indeed it can be. We've moved off the originial point somewhat and I think if you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:52:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:44:47 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Reason >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? <snip> >Ithink the Occam's razor heuristic would favor the ETH >over the time-traveler hypothesis (invoking Occam's razor in >support of the ETH may seem blasphemous to "skeptics" who don't >like to see poor Friar William's name being taken in vain, but >who really cares?) I don't understand how you can regard the ETH as parsimonious in this sense. If Occam's Razor has any relevance here, then it tells that we should not adopt exotic explanations where prosaic ones will do. But I don't see why it should require us to favor one exotic explanation over another. >While I think the ETH seems to be the most plausible explanation >at present, I recognize that it isn't the only possibility. The >UFO phenomenon might even ultimately turn out to be fully >attributable to hoaxes, misidentifications, and delusions as the >skeptics insist, although given the available evidence, I'd rank >the plausibility of the "psycho-social hypothesis" right down >there with Loki. Maybe it would help to distinguish between two different "flavors" of the psychosocial hypothesis: A "weak" version which simply asserts that the explanation of the UFO problem will be found within the domain of the social sciences; and a "strong" version, which asserts that this explanation involves only entities which are already known to science. I don't think strong PSH is consistent with the UFO evidence, and as far as I can discern, some PSH advocates don't think so
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Mexico 'Fleet' Videos From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:49:34 -0400 Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos Hello All, I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage people to take the time to study the videos carefully. I have selected clips that show the objects that were recorded maintaining a static 'formation' and distance from one another in the sky. This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask any pilot. No one has yet taken credit for these objects. If the objects that have been recorded repeatedly are in fact, _not_ours,_ and they demonstrate flight characteristics that our aircraft cannot reproduce, showing the objects to be under somebody else's 'intelligent control,' -the situation begs he questions: 'Whose' air-craft are these? Who is flying or controlling them? (remotely if that is the case.) If Mexico's airspace is being violated with complete impunity by these flying objects. How long before it's _our_ turn? Is it only a matter of time before these mass aerial displays begin to fill our skies and the skies of every other nation on earth? These and other compelling questions need to be answered. The answers will not be forthcoming unless the international community pools it's resources to begin a multi-discipline, comprehensive investigation into the true nature/source of these sightings. Stop taking the word of the Internet 'arm-chair analysts' that the 'fleets' of OVNIs being recorded in Mexico are nothing more than ordinary birds or balloons. Whatever these objects are, they are most certainly _not_ simple balloons or birds. But do not take my word for it either. Do your own homework. Study the images for yourself. Judge for yourself. And then..... Make up your own mind! I dedicate these pages to the People of Mexico and of the World. To the 'Vigilantes' of Mexico for recording these events. Special thanks to; Jaime Maussan for providing the video-clips, Errol Bruce- Knapp for providing the bandwidth at the Virtually Strange Network for the webpages and finally to my dear friend, W.W. without whose invaluable assistance the web presentation would not be as rich as it is. Thank you all for your time, and consideration. Go to: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni.html Study! Learn!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:20:57 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:52:38 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Ledger >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: >ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 >07:52:47 -0700 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: >>ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 >>17:41:41 -0300 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>To: UFO UpDates - >>>Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>Date: Fri, 3 Jun >>>2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: Re: >>>John Keel Demolished ><snip> >>We can argue fairly convincingly that ET exists somewhere in >>the universe but to argue that demons exist because they are >>spoken of in the bible or used in a religious context has no >>scientific value. It has only "blind faith" value. >Hello Don, Jerry, others: >I switch channels the instant I hear somebody talking anything >like demonology, and UFOs, in the same breath. Good, Larry. As you should do. What was on the other channel?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Mysterious Metal Fragments All Over Japan From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:27:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:53:57 -0400 Subject: Mysterious Metal Fragments All Over Japan This is probably not UFO related, but it certainly is something that would have intrigued Charles Fort. http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/06/04/japan.guardrails.ap/ index.html or http://tinyurl.com/bdv8p If anyone comes across a link to photos of these metal fragments
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:54:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:56:29 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:20 EDT >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:03 +0100 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:31:23 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:08:27 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >><snip> >>>Very interesting post, Martin. Might it be that Smith, >>>Hillenkoetter, Souers, and Vandenberg having all been DCIs, >>>and all being part of MJ-12, kept matters in hand by setting >>>things up as described, above. Need-to-know would have >>>prevented letting in Chadwell, etc. >>Could be, Stan. I honestly don't feel I know enough about the >>whole MJ-12 issue (sorry - one of many holes in my education) >>to come down definitely on one side or the other. But given the >>premise it could make sense. >Well then that theory is saying that alleged MJ-12 member DCI >Walter Bedell Smith shut down Chadwell's UFO investigation >plans because he was interfering with MJ-12 or getting to close >to the "truth" and had no "need to know." If so, Smith would >have shut Chadwell down in Sept 1952 when Chadwell began >pressing for a government-wide scientific investigation of UFO's >controlled by the CIA - instead of controlled by MJ-12, thus >posing a threat to alleged MJ-12 operations (as you know I >do not believe in the existence of any such "MJ-12" which I >believe is a fraud concocted in the imagination of AFOSI >disinformation agents). >Chadwell kept pressing for the same scientific UFO project month >after month in every way he could think of and thus threatened >the alleged MJ-12's "security" month after month. But instead >it was the AF and the AF-manipulated Robertson Panel that >effectively shut down Chadwell in January 1953 (he told me the >Panel "overturned" his ETH conclusion), not any purported MJ-12 >Committee. Good points Brad. I see an ad hoc alliance of interests coming together at this time in the IAC, maybe only a temporary axis, or possibly connected with ultrasensitive new COMSEC/COMINT arrangements as I suggested (but I know you don't agree with the NSA angle either). On the other hand, looking at it from Stan's point of view, I think it's often the case that the pressure of problems tends to increase so that they are initially ignorable then finally have to be dealt with. I suppose it's possible that OSI's concerns were considered manageable internally within CIA for some time, until eventually Chadwell's agitating started to prove difficult. Could it be that it was only decided latterly that Smith needed a "reason" to shut Chadwell up - for consumption within the agency as well as in other elements of the military/intelligence community that might begin to take courage from OSI's lobbying - hence a big showy review that would appear to legitimate OSI's enforced climb-down? It's true that Chadwell and OSI could just have been firmly stomped on by DCI Smith the instant they started making proposals. But maybe the judgment was that interest within the agency, as well as outside it, was already just too wide. At the time of the White House query re Washington National CIA wrote back immediately that the Special Study Group "has been formed" suggesting that this was already underway and was an autonomous project, not merely a politic reaction as claimed by Klass. In fact the reasons given are because it was considered "timely" and "because of the wide interest within the agency". So this was a time when to have over-ruled OSI's natural remit and quashed their program could have been seen as negligent or even as a disproportionate over-reaction that could only foster suspicion of CIA. The tactic may then have evolved of, instead, allowing OSI enough rope by which to hang themselves. And a real bonus would be to get Blue Book to put its own head in the noose at the same time! Ruppelt may have been party to the scam before the Panel meetings (as you say) which would suggest he had been "persuaded" of the greater good of keeping a lid on things. The same thing may have happened with Chadwell and OSI. They too could have already known the score by the time they showed up at the Panel meetings in January 53. The whole thing would be a mere going-through-the-motions for the purpose of providing a plausible back-story for the panel's final Report - to all intents and purposes written beforehand. As I pointed out before, OSI's mute and submissive and completely unapologetic and unembarrassed reaction (or lack of) to the report seems inconsistent and psychologically incredible if they were still innocent. But it rings true if, by this time, they were executing policy. You argue that the reports that the Panel were shown were inherently poor and sure to fall apart, and that after the Panel's thorough demolition of the cases presented OSI basically had no grounds to protest and just admitted that they had been wrong. I accept you have evidence that Ruppelt deliberately held back his file of top cases, and I agree it's consistent that the cases presented could have been relatively poor and unrepresentative, because OSI had gone to the lengths of a top- level panel of science consultants to review the data already, together with months of in-house study, and if the cases so easily blown apart by the Panel in a few hours really had been representative of the same material on which OSI had based its recommendation for a major government project then we would have to assume that both OSI and their "leading" science consultants had all been completely out to lunch. But if unrepresentative cases were substituted then I don't see how OSI could have failed to realise on the spot that the court was rigged, and then Chadwell definitely _would_ have had grounds to protest. If he had thought that there was any point. Either then or soon after Chadwell must have known or guessed what had been done, and/or someone somewhere in the OSI Special Study Group or related consultant organisations must have known or guessed what had been done, and people talk, especially when they have been on then end of underhanded implicit criticism. There ought to be documents critical of AF handling of the case selection, if criticism were allowed. There ought to be memos at least defending OSI's corner, if arguments were allowed. It looks to me as though it was understood that _nothing_ was allowed, even internally, but a big, fat "no comment". And it isn't just absence of protest that smells fishy anyway; it's the absence of excuses, apologias, of blame-games, of shuffling-off of responsibility etc., all the things that normally happen when elements of a bureacratic organisation f*** up badly. I can easily believe that by the time of the Panel meetings Chadwell already knew there would be no point in protesting to the DCI and the IAC since they had been the ones doing the rigging! You could construe this as illustrating an "MJ-12" type
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 5 Chris French Abduction Study Results - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 20:58:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:58:47 -0400 Subject: Chris French Abduction Study Results - Pope I've posted previously on this List information relating to the scientific study into alien abductions conducted by Professor Chris French at Goldsmith College, University of London. As previously notified, Professor French presented a paper on this at a conference in Liverpool on Saturday. Chris forwarded me a copy of his paper, but asked me not to post it for now, as this might cause problems with subsequent publication in scientific journals. He did, however, say that I could post a summary of the paper. I'm wary of this, as I'm not a scientist, but I think I can safely say the following: The study involved 19 abductees (8 male, 11 female) and a control group matched by age and gender. The study looked for postulated psychological differences between the two groups, for differences in susceptibility to false memories, and for differences in ESP and PK abilities. Significant differences were found in areas such as tendency to hallucinate, absorption and dissociative tendencies. The results were less clear on fantasy-proneness, while no significant differences were found on susceptibility to false memory. Greater incidence of sleep paralysis was found among the abductees, though it was acknowledged that this might be a symptom of, and not an explanation for, alien abduction. The tests on paranormal abilities did not appear to show any significant differences, though there was one apparent difference on the clairvoyance test, which I'm attempting to clarify. Once the paper's been published in scientific journals, I'll post it to this List, provided Professor French is content.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Tall Whites From: Lyle Michel <COURTROOMEVIDENCE456.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:15:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:23:57 -0400 Subject: Tall Whites This past Memorial Holiday weekend I had the privilege to hear Charles James Hall speak on his experiences at areas, 51, 52, 53, and 54 with the Tall Whites. He gave his presentation in Rachel, Nevada. He has 3 books which are: (1) Millennial Hospitality (2) Millennial Hospitality II, The World We Knew and (3) Millennial Hospitality III, The Road Home I have only finished his first book but I could not put it down.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 What's The Bounty On UFOs? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:27:18 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:30:47 -0400 Subject: What's The Bounty On UFOs? I've just read a John Velez post where he pointed out the need for the UFO Community to pool resources. Considering the abduction problem I can see why. So I got to thinking if anyone had put some dough in escrow as a reward or bounty for physical proof or whistleblowers? I recall some rewards/bounties but hadn't heard the resolution. Considering all the claimants someone has to have the goods. Or maybe the stakes aren't high enough. I'm sure if someone forked over $1 million or more with a penalty for those con artists and practical jokers, you'ld pull in a fish or two from somewhere especially those broke former KGB agents and disgruntled government employees. :) Maybe Mr. Felt - Deep Throat - has an extra goodie lying around.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way - From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 01:41:22 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:27:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way - >From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Prophet Yahweh - Fake? Sure Looks That Way >First off, there's been some confusion about this character, the >Las Vegas Yahweh, a.k.a. Ramon Watkins, is not the same guy as >the Yahweh Ben Yahweh cult leader racist. >However, Ramon Watkins, if that is his real name, seems to be >quite a character even so. Claiming a vow of poverty, if you >look at his personal bio here, you'll see that he claims to make >$150,000 a year, and promises to take pretty good care of any >woman that would have him. See: >http://personals.yahoo.com/prophetyahweh >Now here's some links which pretty much blow away the rest of >his claims. I'm still hearing that this may not be Prophet >Yahweh in some of these photos, so I suggest we all keep an eye >on this situation and see what else turns up. >http://www.prophetyahweh.funtigo.com/ >http://www.boingboing.net/ scroll down the page on this one >http://www.computerclubhouse.org/programs/bbb/photoalbum.html >http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1997/oct/d29-001.shtml >http://personals.yahoo.com/prophetyahweh >http://www.shilohbroadcasting.com/ >I would be interested in any comments about this information, so >please look it over carefully. Hi Joe and Listers, This dude (based upon the links) appears to be a total and complete stroke job. Personally, I suspect like many others before him, that he will likely have a crowd of gulliable people, he may get invited on the UFO lecture circuit where he will be embraced by some as the UFO Prophet of the century... never to be doubted. Some in charge of the UFO lecture circuit will explain away his presence by drivilling something like 'Well, we don't check their background..in fact we don't care about their backgrounds, credentials or claims, its just our job to present the person and let other people decide...blah blah blah. I sincerely hope I am proven wrong, but suspect I won't be.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:18:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:36:57 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:41:33 -0400 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:47:27 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:05:36 -0400 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >Oops, Amy went and attributed a bunch of negative and >manipulative stuff (that came out of her_own_ head) to me, and >now I find that I have to jump in just to set the sadly mistaken >Ms. Hebert straight. If I may... How nice of you to join us, Mr. Velez. ;> <snip> >>No mask other than what you are attempting to project on me. When I >>first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately thought, "He >>(John) is re-directing the attention away from the issues at hand >>rather than providing valid evidence to support the claims made." >>It's a tactic I've observed in use many times on this and other >>lists. Instead of addressing the issues, a diversion is created and >>the focus is gradually shifted away from questions that need to be >>answered. <snip> >Amy, you say that _you_ interpreted my actions as being based on >a conscious effort on my part to "re-direct attention away from >the real issue" and then you proceed to label it a "tactic." >Again, implying intentional deceptiveness. <snip> >You're wrong about me. Back off. Or I will consider it 'fair >game' to post my thoughts about you in public. OK, John, prove me wrong. Instead of threatening, instead of claiming people don't buy the claims and videos of "fleets of UFO's over Mexico" because they are prejudiced, instead of changing the subject or going on about personal concerns, let us discuss the evidence or lack of in reference to the April 11th video footage presented by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil. (BTW, excellent job on the video clips you posted today! Finally some clear footage. Thank you so much! <grin>) Many have said the objects in the April 11th video footage look like balloons or white birds. Where is the evidence to dispute these claims? In a post distributed to this List on May 2, 2005, a Mr. Raul Orozco is quoted as saying: "To be more specific I will show you a video of a bunch of balloons where you will clearly see when zooming to several of them their cord is visible." The original post can be found at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m02-024.shtml Where can we go to review this footage of balloons in the sky? On April 27, 2005 in a post sent to the UFO UpDates List, Santiago Yturria Garza said: "Complementing your comments I would like to say that we have made many actual comparisons with balloons. Even expensive tests to be videotaped studying their behavior at certain altitudes. We have all these balloons fleets recreations on tape since 1994..." And further down in this post, Santiago said: "As a matter of fact when Pope John Paul II visited Mexico there were thrown many balloons to the sky when his plane was about to land and I think this was just great!! Because this incident gave us the opportunity to videotape those balloons in the sky that memorable day when also UFOs were witnessed over Mexico city including a UFO fleet." The original post can be found at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m28-001.shtml Where is this footage available on the internet that we may review and make our own comparisons? If Mr.Gil's video footage is made available on the internet, then this evidence, claimed to dispute the balloon theories, should be also be presented for all to see. I have also been waiting to hear the answers to some of Kyle King's questions but have yet to see them on this List. Can you tell me if there were any time/date stamps on the video taken by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil on April 11, 2005 that you personally reviewed or on the original video footage? What kind of camera did Mr. Gil use to film the April 11th footage and what was the zoom capability? And could you please tell us the official weather conditions for the day the footage in question was obtained such as: wind direction and speed, temperature, visibility, barometric pressure, etc.? I am setting up my own web page in reference to this sighting and video footage and would greatly appreciate any help with these details. Thank you for your time and attention to these matters, Mr. Velez.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Humanoids At Faded Discs From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:48:59 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:07:00 -0400 Subject: Humanoids At Faded Discs Greetings to the Listarians, Why send a "Love Offering" to James Moseley, when real research materials you can actually use, are available? Volume 13 in the Audio History of Ufology Project is available to researchers. If you get a thrill about humanoids getting run over by a car, serving pancakes and getting arrows shot at them, then get ready! Entitled, "Humanoids," this 13+ hour / 34 track MP3 audio compilation contains many formerly unknown CE III cases, as well as important recordings of classic cases. It is more "Shockingly Close to the Truth" than Moseley could even dream of offering. Thank you to all the wonderful patrons whose support allows for the audio history of Ufology to continue. The project has now made available over 150 hours of recordings to the research community to supplement the written history and hundreds more to come! Details and ordering info for the Humanoids MP3 compilation are available for viewing at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Sleep Paralysis Abstract From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:53:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:47:29 -0400 Subject: Sleep Paralysis Abstract This is a recent abstract from Medline that I meant to post during the recent discussion on sleep paralysis, but never got around to. It's by our old friends, Clancy and McNally. Any comments would be welcome. Cathy ----- Sleep paralysis in adults reporting repressed, recovered, or continuous memories of childhood sexual abuse. McNally RJ, Clancy SA. J Anxiety Disord. 2005;19(5):595-602. Department of Psychology, Harvard University, 1230 William James Hall, 33 Kirkland Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA. Sleep paralysis typically occurs as individuals awaken from rapid eye movement sleep before motor paralysis wanes. Many episodes are accompanied by tactile and visual hallucinations, often of threatening intruders in the bedroom. Pendergrast [Victims of Memory: Incest Accusations and Shattered Lives, HarperCollins, London, 1996] proposed that individuals who report repressed or recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) may misinterpret episodes of sleep paralysis as reemerging fragments of dissociated ("repressed") memories of CSA. To investigate this issue, we administered a sleep paralysis questionnaire to people reporting either repressed (n = 18), recovered (n = 14), or continuous (n = 36) memories of CSA, or to a control group reporting no history of CSA (n = 16). The prevalence of sleep paralysis was: repressed memory group (44%), recovered memory group (43%), continuous memory group (47%), and control group (13%). Among the six individuals in the recovered memory group who had experienced sleep paralysis, one interpreted it as related to sexual abuse (i.e., a rate of 17%). All other participants who had reported sleep paralysis embraced
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:40:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:12:30 -0400 Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? - Fleming >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:52:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:18:36 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The End of SETI As We Know It? ><snip> >>Ithink the Occam's razor heuristic would favor the ETH >>over the time-traveler hypothesis (invoking Occam's razor in >>support of the ETH may seem blasphemous to "skeptics" who don't >>like to see poor Friar William's name being taken in vain, but >>who really cares?) >I don't understand how you can regard the ETH as parsimonious in >this sense. If Occam's Razor has any relevance here, then it >tells that we should not adopt exotic explanations where prosaic >ones will do. But I don't see why it should require us to favor >one exotic explanation over another. There are degrees of "exoticness". While most scientists won't accept that there's any evidence that UFOs are of ET origin (at least not in public), most would readily agree that the likelihood is very high that intelligent extraterrestials exist somewhere in the universe if not our galaxy. So in that regard, the ETH is introducing no new "entities" into the universe to explain UFOs. In contrast, the ultraterrestrial hypothesis does introduce new entities: the ultraterrestrials themselves, which violates the parsimony heuristic. While scientists may not totally rule out the possibility of time travel, there's no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:49:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:15:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >Hello All, Hi! >I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage >people to take the time to study the videos carefully. I >have selected clips that show the objects that were >recorded maintaining a static 'formation' and distance >from one another in the sky. >This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask >any pilot. Yeah, I'll have to take a look at it. May I ask if you have a link to some analysis report for each of the videos? I seem to recall someone has actually done some photographic analysis of the videos to prove they are not computer generated. Has anyone of the research team collected the weather data, radar data in a report? >No one has yet taken credit for these objects. If the >objects that have been recorded repeatedly are in >fact, _not_ours,_ and they demonstrate flight >characteristics that our aircraft cannot >reproduce, showing the objects to be under somebody >else's 'intelligent control,' -the situation begs he questions: >'Whose' air-craft are these? Who is flying or controlling >them? (remotely if that is the case.) If Mexico's airspace >is being violated with complete impunity by these >flying objects. How long before it's _our_ turn? Who says the US is _not_ having its airspace violated with impunity? (although not by such quantities of objects in small airspace) >Is it only a matter of time before these mass aerial >displays begin to fill our skies and the skies of every other nation on earth? It would be great! Certainly catch everyone's attention! >These and other compelling questions need to be >answered. The answers will not be forthcoming >unless the international community pools it's >resources to begin a multi-discipline, >comprehensive investigation into the true nature/ >source of these sightings. That's a splendid idea! Yes, we need to at least get a Ray Stanford type field research facility. We need at least seed funding for the passive radar to track these things into Earth orbit or hopefully some "base". >Stop taking the word of the Internet 'arm-chair analysts' >that the 'fleets' of OVNIs being recorded in Mexico >are nothing more than ordinary birds or balloons. I doubt there are _any_ simple minded people who read this List who "take the word" of so-called arm chair analysts. I think such responses from the analysts are equivalent to votes from the audience. At least they show an interest, most folk stay in lurk mode and enjoy the show! >Whatever these objects are, >they are most certainly _not_ simple balloons or birds. But >do not take my word for it either. Do your own homework. >Study the images for yourself. Judge for yourself. And then..... >Make up your own mind! The problem I have is that there are so many videos and each requires its own assessment and I cannot offer a general opinion
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:57:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:17:28 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:27:40 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:21:03 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:06:26 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished <snip> Nick, >>>Ufology is not yet at the stage where we can rule out any idea >>>about UFOs or the intelligences behind them with a high degree >>>of certainty. So saucers from the hollow earth are still a possibility? We can't rule out Adamski's Venus or Bethurum's Clarion? What about Woody Derenberger's Lanulos? Or Fort's sky islands? Or space animals? Or Russian secret weapons? How about Sanderson's hidden race of under-the-ocean OINTS (Other INTelligenceS)? Survivors of Atlantis and Lemuria? What about deros? >This includes the concept of "ultraterrestrials" >>>or UTs - nonhuman beings that have not necessarily visiting us >>>from distant planets but are from this world or are a part of >>>our own "reality". >>>Demons (different names in other cultures as Lan also pointed >>>out) are just one example of UTs but it would be wrong to simply >>>conclude that all UTs are demons. Or that any of them are, unless of one course is given to superstitious beliefs. >>>Also, just because we do not agree with the views of John Keel, >>>Trevor James Constable and other unorthodox thinkers in ufology >>>does not mean that some of their ideas, including the concept of >>>UTs which they promoted, do not have merit and are not worthy of >>>further consideration. This paragraph makes no sense and addresses no objection to Keelism beyond the convenient one you've invented. It is clear that you have read none of the critical work on Keel, prominently including my own. It is evident that you haven't even read the Fortean Times article (March 2002) I've mentioned here more than once. >>I'm afraid, Nick, that I have no sympathy whatever for the view >>that all things, however ill considered, however removed from >>reason, logic, and empirical evidence, however based in dubious >>claims (including exposed hoaxes), should be considered. >>There's a phrase this sort of thinking - if that's the word - >>brings to mind: so open-minded that one's brains fall out. >>I prefer to keep my brains inside my head and behind a critical >>filter. >Oh c'mon Jerry, you honestly don't believe in ultraterrestrials? >If I did not see your name at the end of the reply I would have >assumed it came from one of my more skeptical colleagues who use >the exact same reasoning to dismiss our beliefs in ETs! In fact, it's you who sound like the skeptic. Anyone who equates ETs with demons is echoing the sort of out-of-control rhetoric one encounters in the more hysterical pelicanist literature. ETs are the subject of daily scientific discourse; relatively few scientists deny their existence, and the only point of controversy that concerns us is whether they are visiting the earth or are even able to do so. That's what's called the ETH controversy, and it isn't what I was discussing, inasmuch as I never mentioned it in this thread till you brought it up and I am forced to respond. It's irrelevant except to the extent that Keel despises it as an appalling heresy and furiously attacks the heretics who espouse it - not only as simply wrong, by the way, but as mentally ill. By the way, Nick, I think you're wrong, but I don't think for a moment that you are mentally ill. That's why you'd rather be arguing with me than with the guy you're defending. Where the actual subject of this thread is concerned, it is worth noting, because you don't, that even mainstream Christianity (which in any case does not claim to be engaging in scientific inquiry) has long eschewed talk of demons. Only on the fundamentalist fringes are demons a living issue. There is a body of fundamentalist literature that holds UFOs are demonic. >If you want to keep your brain tightly in your head, that's >fine, but allow it to function properly by evaluating all >evidence even it is in conflict with your present biases or >beliefs. I have been in ufology nearly all of my life and spent decades weighing evidence, thinking about it, and - as those who have followed my writing over the years will attest - changing my mind when new information persuasively challenges old ideas. That is why, as an early follower of Keel, I moved on once the many, many problems of Keelism became apparent to me. So I'm the last guy you ought to be lecturing on the proper functioning of brain and analytical abilities. If a rejection of medieval supernaturalism as an approach to UFO study qualifies as mere "bias" or "belief," I suppose I'll have to plead guilty. I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide whether scientific principles or medieval religious dogmas are more productive approaches to the unraveling of UFO mysteries. >This is very unscientific and will not help to bring us >any closer to the correct answer(s) to this mystery. Let's see now: someone who advocates an approach to UFO study based on medieval supernaturalism - _and_ is an apologist for John Keel - lectures me on being not just "unscientific" but "_very_ unscientific." Uh huh. At least Keel is honest enough to give open vent to his anti- intellectualism and contempt for science. Whatever his faults, Keel does understand the principle, unlike you apparently, that you can't have it both ways. If you really believe we have "centuries of empirical evidence" for "ultraterrestrials" aka demons, then it is obvious that we are living in parallel universes, and I see no point in further discussion. I do agree that the UFO phenomenon is complex, arguably beyond current knowledge, and that - as I have written on several occasions in print - we may well be talking about "UFO phenomena" (in other words, more than one phenomenon). I have also written on the two categories of "anomalous events" and "experience anomalies" as a useful tentative way of looking at the questions you're addressing. It never occurred to me, frankly, that I ought to be proposing the categories of "ETs" and "demons." >We have centuries more empirical evidence for the reality of >ultraterrestrials (which by definition includes demons) than we >do for extraterrestrials. Of course, we would only have to prove >just one case to establish the reality of UTs and ETs but even >if we do prove the existence of ETs it would not rule out UTs or >vice versa. With all due respect, Nick, this is just plain silly. You may be trying to say something that actually makes sense, or maybe not. In any event, the language you use undercuts any hope you have of being taken seriously. You simply are not going to persuade anyone who is not already susceptible to an embrace of medieval supernaturalism that useless, meaningless rhetoric - in the end, "ultraterrestrials" and "demons" are just words, not explanations - is going to get us anywhere. If not getting anywhere is where you want to be, you can have all the ultraterrestrials and demons in this world, the next one, and the nether regions besides. Me, I'd like some answers, and I'm still looking, still curious, still intrigued, after all these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 UN Petition Signature Update From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:57:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:52:27 -0400 Subject: UN Petition Signature Update Hello All, An update to let everyone know where we're at in terms of signature collection for the UN Petition. The count currently stands at: 5835. Please, I encourage all of you to go the petition website, read it, and if you agree with the content, sign it. Then, tell as many others as you can to do likewise. With the recent release of information from Brazil the time may be ripening for submitting the petition to the Secretary General of the UN. Hopefully other countries will follow the lead of countries like Belgium, Mexico, Brazil and others. In time, we may finally know the truth behind the UFO presence and the interference of the UFO occupants into lives of literally thousands of human beings. After hearing the harrowing details of the UFO landing in Brazil where the craft fired 'beams' at people and even injured a few, I think it's time to get off your duff and get involved in seeking the truth from our governments and militaries. When a report such as this is added to the reports of the abductees, the chances for these visitors being benign begin to diminish rapidly. I have been saying all along that there is an 'urgency' to all this that even many who are involved in ufology on a daily basis fail to fully appreciate. Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:08:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:58:21 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:18:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:41:33 -0400 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:47:27 -0500 >>>Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:05:36 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:18 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>Oops, Amy went and attributed a bunch of negative and >>manipulative stuff (that came out of her_own_ head) to me, and >>now I find that I have to jump in just to set the sadly mistaken >>Ms. Hebert straight. If I may... >How nice of you to join us, Mr. Velez. ;> ><snip> >>>No mask other than what you are attempting to project on me. When I >>>first read Kyle's post and then John's, I immediately thought, "He >>>(John) is re-directing the attention away from the issues at hand >>>rather than providing valid evidence to support the claims made." >>>It's a tactic I've observed in use many times on this and other >>>lists. Instead of addressing the issues, a diversion is created and >>>the focus is gradually shifted away from questions that need to be >>>answered. ><snip> >>Amy, you say that _you_ interpreted my actions as being based on >>a conscious effort on my part to "re-direct attention away from >>the real issue" and then you proceed to label it a "tactic." >>Again, implying intentional deceptiveness. ><snip> >>You're wrong about me. Back off. Or I will consider it 'fair >>game' to post my thoughts about you in public. >OK, John, prove me wrong. Instead of threatening, instead of >claiming people don't buy the claims and videos of "fleets of >UFO's over Mexico" because they are prejudiced, instead of >changing the subject or going on about personal concerns, let us >discuss the evidence or lack of in reference to the April 11th >video footage presented by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil. Ms. Hebert, <LMAO>You are a hoot! Wow! In spite of all your proclamations otherwise, you _really_ don't know _anything_ about human psychology do you? <ROFLMAO> Amy, you can't insult and demean someone in public for years and then 'suddenly' expect to conduct a 'civil' discussion with them. You'd really have to be 'out of touch' to even attempt such a thing at this stage. Did it ever occur to you that you 'might' have been pissing me off all this time? Why on earth would I even want to conduct any kind of dialog with you that isn't preceded by profuse and sincere apologies from you? You haven't even attempted to apologize for the string of lies and negative attributions you made about me in your last post. Not to mention all of the other lies, insults and innuendo I've had to weather from you lo these many years. But _now_ you want to 'talk.' Wake up and smell the coffee lady! Apologize. Apologize for all the mean-spirited insults, lies and innuendo or don't bother addressing any more posts to me in private, or on this List. As for the above: Mr. Arturo Robles Gil and any video he may have recorded is not dealt with or included in the web presentation I have made. You posted some slanderous and even libelous statements about Mr. Gil on this List not too long ago. You publicly called him a hoaxer/liar and accused him of intentionally faking his video recordings. I challenged you to _prove_ it. To show all of us the same incontrovertible first-hand evidence that convinced you that Mr. Gil did in fact "fake" a video and then lie about it in public. You never acknowledged or responded to my inquiry requesting that you share the "proof" you must have had of Mr. Gil's larceny. It's alright if you call someone a 'hoaxer' in public, Amy. There is just a small sticking point about actually having to prove it first. You kind of missed 'proving' your accusations when you made them initially. An oversight on your part? That's one hell of an 'oversight' if that is in fact what it was. From where I sit, it was just a very public and blatant act of character assassination. A trial, judgement and execution starring; Judge Amy Hebert. If you have questions for/about Mr. Arturo Robles Gil, I suggest you contact him and ask _him_. I am not his "representative" or his "attorney." The latter by the way, is someone I would worry about hearing from in an official capacity if I were you. Public slander and libel is not 'ok'. Contrary to any belief you may harbor otherwise.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:09:07 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>To: ><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 >03:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On >UFO Research >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:41:33 -0400 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >OK, John, prove me wrong. Instead of threatening, instead of >claiming people don't buy the claims and videos of "fleets of >UFO's over Mexico" because they are prejudiced, instead of >changing the subject or going on about personal concerns, let us >discuss the evidence or lack of in reference to the April 11th >video footage presented by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil. >(BTW, excellent job on the video clips you posted today! Finally >some clear footage. Thank you so much! <grin>) >Many have said the objects in the April 11th video footage >look like balloons or white birds. The latter [birds] I believe to be baloney. It's a throw-away theory. It just confuses the issue which might be the aim in the first place. Shows no research. [See below] >Where is the evidence to >dispute these claims? In a post distributed to this List on >May 2, 2005, a Mr. Raul Orozco is quoted as saying: >"To be more specific I will show you a video of a bunch of >balloons where you will clearly see when zooming to several of t>hem their cord is visible." >The original post can be found at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m02-024.shtml >Where can we go to review this footage of balloons in the sky? >On April 27, 2005 in a post sent to the UFO UpDates List, Santiago Yturria Garza said: >"Complementing your comments I would like to say that we have >made many actual comparisons with balloons. Even expensive >tests to be videotaped studying their behavior at certain >altitudes. We have all these balloons fleets recreations on >tape since 1994..." >And further down in this post, Santiago said: >"As a matter of fact when Pope John Paul II visited Mexico >there were thrown many balloons to the sky when his plane was >about to land and I think this was just great!! Because this >incident gave us the opportunity to videotape those balloons >in the sky that memorable day when also UFOs were witnessed >over Mexico city including a UFO fleet." >The original post can be found at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m28-001.shtml I'd be more interested in seeing the videos of the balloons. I don't see the Mexican footage as being birds. I've seen birds from all angles in including from above [once right through a flock of seagulls (Briar Island) which scared the "you-know" out of me] and have never seen them appear as these little round, static balls. In keeping with the general run-on rhetoric about what is and what isn't a shot of a bird or UFO here are the URLs for some flocks of birds. If you chopped the wings off them and painted them with reflective silver paint you would obviously end up with something similar to what was photographed in Mexico and thereby solving the case for the Mexican fleet. http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV1.htm http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV2.htm http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV3.htm http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV4.htm http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV5.htm http://www.zbirdbrain.com/SeagullsV6.htm http://www.alanbauer.com/images/Birds/Snow%20goose%20life-off%20coming%20at%20me -Horz.jpg http://www.alanbauer.com/images/Birds/Group%20of%20flying%20Trumpeter%20Swans-Ho rz.jpg http://www.azfotos.com/animals/birds/geese.htm http://www.tssphoto.com/ops_html/E1080H.html http://www.atlanticcanada.worldweb.com/Photos/WildlifeAnimals/10-8098.html http://www.azfotos.com/animals/birds/flying_birds.htm http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0033-0405-1708-0544.html http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0064-0505-3013-4547.html http://acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0018-0308-2910-2945.html http://acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0018-0405-0307-5821.html You can ammuse yourself on this site with hundreds of birds, most not in flocks. http://www.acclaimimages.com/search_terms/bird_lover.html >I have also been waiting to hear the answers to some of Kyle >King's questions but have yet to see them on this List. Can >you tell me if there were any time/date stamps on the video >taken by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil on April 11, 2005 that you >personally reviewed or on the original video footage? What >kind of camera did Mr. Gil use to film the April 11th footage >and what was the zoom capability? And could you please tell us >the official weather conditions for the day the footage in >question was obtained such as: wind direction and speed, >temperature, visibility, barometric pressure, etc.? Good questions. Don't forget the cloud bases for these days either for the photos which show the objects going behind then emerging from clouds. And how about balloon launchings for these dates and times. Time is very important because party and weather balloons filled with helium rise, expanding gradually then get really brittle from the cold at high altitudes exploding at certain altitudes and usually after a short lengths of time. Their life expectancy is very short. >I am setting up my own web page in reference to this sighting >and video footage and would greatly appreciate any help with >these details. No blurred shots please.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Secrecy News -- 06/06/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:36:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:12:56 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/06/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 53 June 6, 2005 ** HPSCI CALLS FOR PROSECUTION OF LEAKS ** NIXON AND THE FBI ** JASON ON HIGH PERFORMANCE BIOCOMPUTATION ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS HPSCI CALLS FOR PROSECUTION OF LEAKS The Department of Justice should "place a higher priority on investigating and prosecuting illegal disclosures of classified information," the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) said in its new report on the 2006 Intelligence Authorization Act. "Hundreds of 'leaks' have been reported to the Department over the past ten years, without a single indictment or prosecution," the House Committee complained, echoing similar findings in the report of the Silberman-Robb WMD Commission. The Committee, which opposed the 9-11 Commission's recommendation to reduce unnecessary secrecy by disclosing the size of the intelligence budget, was silent on overclassification. But it cited inter-agency information sharing as an issue requiring focused attention. "Information 'ownership' must be a concept of the past, not the future." The Committee imposed controversial new restrictions on the ability of the Director of National Intelligence to transfer personnel except with the advance approval of congressional defense committees (section 305). Democrats opposed the move, which they said "is so damaging to the authority of the DNI that it threatens to undermine the very reforms passed by Congress last year." The Committee instructed the Director of National Intelligence to produce "a comprehensive inventory of all special access programs under the National Intelligence Program" (section 307). Remarkably, the Bush Administration opposes a similar requirement for an inventory of DoD intelligence programs in the pending Defense Authorization Act, declaring in a May 25 statement that "existing law and understandings provide the proper arrangements for ensuring that appropriate congressional committees are informed of DOD intelligence and intelligence- related programs." See the HPSCI Report on the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2006, House Report 109-101, June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_rpt/hrpt109-101.html NIXON AND THE FBI The House Intelligence Committee last week demanded intensified pursuit and punishment of leaks even as the most famous leaker of all, Deep Throat, was unmasked as W. Mark Felt, deputy director of the FBI in the Nixon Administration. Excerpts of several Nixon White House tapes providing some context on tensions between the White House and the FBI at the time have been posted by the National Security Archive. See "Nixon and the FBI: The White House Tapes," June 3: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB156/index.htm JASON ON HIGH PERFORMANCE BIOCOMPUTATION Computational biology, which refers to the application of advanced computational methods to problems in biological science, is the subject of a newly disclosed report of the JASON scientific advisory panel. "Computation is having an important impact at every level of the biological enterprise," the JASON report states. "It has facilitated investigation of computationally intensive tasks such as the study of molecular interactions that affect protein folding, analysis of complex biological machines, determination of metabolic and regulatory networks, modeling of neuronal activity and ultimately multi-scale simulations of entire organisms." A copy of the report was obtained by Secrecy News. See "High Performance Biocomputation," March 7, 2005 (1.9 MB PDF): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/biocomp.pdf Last month, Secrecy News (05/26/05) described two explanations for the unusual name of the JASON panel. "Neither of your stories about the origin of the name JASON is accurate," wrote JASON founding member Marvin Goldberger, who is also an FAS sponsor and Secrecy News supporter. "It was my wife who actually proposed it," Dr. Goldberger said, noting that no one liked the name initially suggested by ARPA, "Project Sunrise." A full account of this and many other matters will appear in an eagerly-awaited history of the JASONs by author Ann Finkbeiner, to be published in April 2006. SELECTED CRS REPORTS Direct public access to products of the Congressional Research Service (CRS) is not authorized by Congress. So the public must depend on unauthorized access. Some recent CRS reports obtained by Secrecy News include these: "Freedom of Information Act Amendments: 109th Congress," updated May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL32780.pdf "Congressional Oversight of Judges and Justices," May 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32935.pdf "New Zealand: Background and Bilateral Relations with the United States," April 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32876.pdf "China and Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction and Missiles: Policy Issues," updated April 5, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL31555.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:53:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:14:10 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Balaskas >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:20:57 -0300 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 >07:52:47 -0700 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished <snip> >>Hello Don, Jerry, others: >>I switch channels the instant I hear somebody talking anything >>like demonology, and UFOs, in the same breath. >Good, Larry. As you should do. What was on the other channel? Hi Guys! Thirty years ago John Brent Musgrave was awarded a Canada Council government grant to study the history of the UFO phenomenon in Canada. The result of Musgrave's study was the publication a few years later of the excellent reference book titled 'UFO Occupants and Critters: The Patterns in Canada'. In it are many examples of UFO entity cases that pre-date 1947, the start of what many consider the start of the Modern UFO Era. Both Don and I recently obtained our own copies of this book through Stanton Friedman... There is a short passage that I will quote below from Musgrave's book that not only is at odds with what Don, Larry, Jerry and many others ufologists believe regarding the real answer to UFOs and the intelligence behind the UFO phenomenon but that such thinking will also hinder the finding of the true solution to the UFO mystery any time soon. "The Condon study was made within the intellectual framework of the extraterrestrial origin of UFO reports. While this idea enjoyed great popular support, it was one that Drs. Hynek and Jacque Vallee, among others, strongly urged the committee to abandon. They argued that the ETH (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis) should eb thought of as just one of many possible explanations. But Condon, and some of the other members of the committee, insisted that a major portion fo the the project be an attempt to prove or disprove the alien origin of UFOs. This... lead ultimately to the judgement of the reality and worth of empirical data being made on the basis of whether or not a particular hypothesis or explanation of that empirical data proved to be tenable of not. It's as if an astronomer were to reject the existence of lunar eclipses because he isn't willing to accept that dragons can eat up the moon. ...many scientists who had looked at the UFO reports had come to conclusion that these reports represented useful data, but that they didn't support the ETH hypothesis." As we continue our own investigations into the still unsolved mystery of UFOs, let us set aside our biases and pre-conceptions so that we do not make the same mistakes that Edward Condon and his fellow researchers made in their official investigation into UFOs back in 1968. I wonder what their conclusions regarding
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 6 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:42:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Velez >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:49:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage >>people to take the time to study the videos carefully. I >>have selected clips that show the objects that were >>recorded maintaining a static 'formation' and distance >>from one another in the sky. >>This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask >>any pilot. Hello All, >Yeah, I'll have to take a look at it. May I ask if you have a >link to some analysis report for each of the videos? Sure, you can ask. Did you see a link to the material there when you visited? Or is it that you haven't been there yet and you're just asking? Either way, there's an excellent way for you to find out what is 'linked' and what isn't if you actually go out there and check it out for yourself. I'm not an "information booth." >I seem to >recall someone has actually done some photographic analysis of >the videos to prove they are not computer generated. Has anyone >of the research team collected the weather data, radar data in a >report? I am not a "research team." >>Is it only a matter of time before these mass aerial >>displays begin to fill our skies and the skies >of every other nation on earth? >It would be great! Certainly catch everyone's attention! Easy for you to say. The privacy and sanctity of my home and my family has been violated. This subject you speak of in such glib terms may have implications far beyond anything you could conjure out of your darkest imagination. You have absolutely no idea what it is you're talking about here. If the treatment the abductees have received at the hands of the UFO occupants is any indication of things to come... "... you know where to put the cork!" (The Who, Tommy.) >That's a splendid idea! Yes, we need to at least get a Ray >Stanford type What "type" is that? Idle gossip? Tongue-wag? Wash-woman? Did he contact you, or have you two been bosom buddies for awhile? Never mind. It's all rhetorical. >I doubt there are _any_ simple minded people who read this List >who "take the word" of so-called arm chair analysts. Really? Then there mustn't be anyone taking your word for anything. >At least they show an interest, most folk stay in >lurk mode and enjoy the show! I was wondering how long it would take for you to pass wind in public again. ;) >The problem I have is that there are so many videos and each >requires its own assessment and I cannot offer a general opinion >on the entire class of videos. >We need a specific name for each video or code and then we can >discuss each by name in turn and hopefully make some progress. Ooh, ooh, can I recommend a few 'names?' I've even got one for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Abductions & Odd Fashion Accessories - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:56:28 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:32:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductions & Odd Fashion Accessories - Boone I've read on occasion abductee accounts where they'ld notice their shirts worn inside out or shoes on the wrong feet or even their unmentionables on the outside of their pajamas after an abduction. These accounts intrigued me because hallucinations and sleep paralysis don't manifest in these ways. Then recently something came up. Watches. An associate relayed to me how they set their watches and bedroom clocks an hour or two ahead. It's an old trick so that people would always be early by tricking the mind. Problem is this associate noticed that recently they would wake up with their watches set to the correct time. Figuring they'd hit some button that sent the watch back to normal setting they told me it's impossible because there are two buttons on their watch that must be held for some time and then a third button pushed to adjust the time by progressively pushing the hour am/pm button. Any of us old timers trying to program these new fangled watches can attest to this. So as an experiment, they put an extra watch in their pajama pocket. Guess what? Sure enough that watch ended up adjusted for correct time. That freaked them out. They did it with digital as well as standard time pieces on their person and whenever they got abducted sure enough those time pieces were adjusted back to the normal setting. I was giggling at this as I asked them what happened to other time piece not on their person. Sure enough those time pieces were left untouched. Until. Yep, several months later they were moving their furniture around and placed a digital clock near their bed. You guessed it! That time piece as well as their on person time pieces were all reset. This associate also alarmed me by pointing out a noted UFO researcher and saying that he was present during the abductions. We all know this gent. What's also strange is he's not been in the limelight of Ufology for quite some time. He used to be all over the place. Methinks thar be wolves in the fold folks.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Martian UFO - A Meteor? - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:01:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:35:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Martian UFO - A Meteor? - Shough >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:35:54 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Martian UFO - A Meteor? >If this Martian UFO is positively identified as a meteor and >since we do not have any images of UFOs in deep space (at least >in the public domain), this will certainly further weaken the >belief held by some rational thinking ufologists such as Jerome >Clark that the extraterrestrial explanation is the only(?) >reasonable one. Hi Nick Given the almost incalculably small volume of deep space sampled by a handful of terrestrial probes, I'd have thought that there can only be a small probability of randomly encountering small bodies in deep space. I also have the impression that cameras are by and large very selectively used, if at all, during most deep space journeys, and tend to get switched on only near the mission destination or when passing significant way-points. So how often might we expect a probe to encounter a deep space UFO in circumstances where it might be close enough and sunlit enough to be photographed? Is there some reliable UFO propulsion physics which suggests they would have to be luminous in deep space? The interesting ideas, such as in James McCampbell's old book, tend to suggest the opposite and relate luminosity to selective ionisation of atmospheric gases and so on. It's true there's an argument that alien technology need not respect our quaint and primitive notions, but if so then we have to concede that there's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:10:41 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:39:59 -0400 Subject: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting Brazilian Air Force presents a video about the meeting with UFO researchers at its website There is no record of such a thing in the UFO literature, ever. The historical meeting between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU) happened on May 20 as a decisive step to establish a UFO disclosure in Brazil, was registered and is being presented in a video for download at the very military webpage: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/aerovia/index.htm In this video, of 1.5 minute, there are segments filmed INSIDE the very secret Brazilian Aerospace Defense Command (Comdabra), where the UFO researchers we allowed to scrutinize classified documents of UFO sightings and detection in Brazil, but not allowed to take pictures or make any footages. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Sleep Paralysis Abstract - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:26:31 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:41:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Abstract - Sparks >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:53:20 +0100 >Subject: Sleep Paralysis Abstract >This is a recent abstract from Medline that I meant to post >during the recent discussion on sleep paralysis, but never got >around to. It's by our old friends, Clancy and McNally. >Any comments would be welcome. >Cathy >----- >Sleep paralysis in adults reporting repressed, recovered, or >continuous memories of childhood sexual abuse. >McNally RJ, Clancy SA. >J Anxiety Disord. 2005;19(5):595-602. >Department of Psychology, Harvard University, 1230 William James >Hall, 33 Kirkland Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA. >Sleep paralysis typically occurs as individuals awaken from >rapid eye movement sleep before motor paralysis wanes. Many >episodes are accompanied by tactile and visual hallucinations, >often of threatening intruders in the bedroom. Pendergrast >[Victims of Memory: Incest Accusations and Shattered Lives, >HarperCollins, London, 1996] proposed that individuals who >report repressed or recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse >(CSA) may misinterpret episodes of sleep paralysis as reemerging >fragments of dissociated ("repressed") memories of CSA. To >investigate this issue, we administered a sleep paralysis >questionnaire to people reporting either repressed (n = 18), >recovered (n = 14), or continuous (n = 36) memories of CSA, or >to a control group reporting no history of CSA (n = 16). The >prevalence of sleep paralysis was: repressed memory group (44%), >recovered memory group (43%), continuous memory group (47%), and >control group (13%). Among the six individuals in the recovered >memory group who had experienced sleep paralysis, one >interpreted it as related to sexual abuse (i.e., a rate of 17%). >All other participants who had reported sleep paralysis embraced >other interpretations (e.g., saw a ghost). Dissociation and >depressive symptoms were more common among those who had >experienced sleep paralysis than among those who denied having >experienced it. Like most statistical analyses it does not show cause-and- effect. If anything, abused children may be more sensitive to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Abductees - UK TV Request From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:31:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:43:47 -0400 Subject: Abductees - UK TV Request "I received this request from Guy Manners of Unique Television in the U.K." Geoff Richardson http://www.thewhyfiles.net --- My name is Guy Manners and I work for Unique Television. We are currently producing a documentary about people who claim to have been abducted by aliens, for a television channel here in the UK. My colleague Suzy Smith has already been in contact with Philip Mantle and I hope you will not mind me contacting you too. We are currently looking for people who are knowledgeable in this field, either through their own research or actual experience and who may be willing to speak to us in confidence about these experiences. We have a tight deadline of two weeks to find our cases and are keen to reach out to as many people as possible. Unique Television is producing a documentary about alien abduction. We aim to investigate this phenomenon through personal accounts of people who believe they have, or may have been, abducted. We want to understand: The stress caused by such a traumatic event. The stigma associated with this phenomenon. The constant fear of, or wish for, future abductions. The development of `special abilities' such as telepathy and healing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: What's The Bounty On UFOs? - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:55:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:45:19 -0400 Subject: Re: What's The Bounty On UFOs? - Velez >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:27:18 EDT >Subject: What's The Bounty On UFOs? Hi Greg, You wrote: >I've just read a John Velez post where he pointed out the need >for the UFO Community to pool resources. >Considering the abduction problem I can see why. I only wish that more would 'consider' it seriously. Contrary to popular belief I am neither crazy or a liar. Something 'major' is going on and people really need to know about it. It's me and mine today. Could be you and yours tomorrow. >I'm sure if someone forked over $1 million or more with a >penalty for those con artists and practical jokers, you'ld pull >in a fish or two from somewhere especially those broke former >KGB agents and disgruntled government employees. :) Yeah, but I'm afraid that the with the stakes so high you'll be knee deep in con artists before the ink dries on the paper the announcement of the 'reward' is printed on. Imagine '115' Lazars! <lol> >Maybe Mr. Felt - Deep Throat - has an extra goodie lying around. <LOL @ Gregs comment> If it's anything like the last one.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:46:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:46:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP - McGonagle >From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:57:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 1:35:16 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope The MoD & FWSP Hello Roy, List, Before I respond below, I have to say in all sincerity that this is the best post that I have ever seen from you, I actually enjoyed reading it! >>As I have alredy made clear, I am arguing on my own behalf. >Joe, >You may say that, but you are carrying on a trend that has been >Shown on this list for some years now i.e. anyone who dared >Question J Randles, D Clarke, A Roberts, always had the wrath >Of soldier ants who would appear from nowhere defending them to >The hilt. Personally I felt these people were waiting to be >Given a mention in the appendix of their upcoming books, just >A wee mention would make anyone's day, kind of UFO street cred. You're right, I do enjoy the little mentions - did you see the recent ones in Fortean Times? However, you might recall the last time you mentioned me backing someone to the hilt - on that occasion I had recently posted a message saying that I would not consider employing the person whose hilt I was supposed to be backing. That statement still holds true. <snip> >Oh to be called an active researcher, have I forgot the many >times I wasted talking and writing to the great M.o.D, and then >decided To get my hands dirty by just looking for the purpose of >such Sightings in my area, of which I have been quite delighted >and Elated in finding out one or two facts of useful UFO >information, Of which is shared locally and internationally with >other colleagues, mostly for the Reason of collating data into a >defined and detailed analysis of What we are dealing with in our >London and world skies, networked on a regular basis! Sorry if I misjudged your level of participation, it's just that I haven't actually seen any of your original material. Are you concerned about someone nicking it? >Although I do appreciate you blowing your own trumpet, why not >Many have done in the past, grab it whilst you can old boy, you >may Just go down in the updates history! I certainly do and will! >>No-one is forcing you to read the thread, why are you doing so >>if it bores you so much? I just guess you and Don must have >>masochistic tendencies. >I'm not sure how many paper files you can fit in your home, but >I Would say that is an addiction worth worrying about! Nor me, they have actually overflowed and I have had to annex my girlfriend's house! I can think of far worse addictions, my scriptophilia is trivial in comparison. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with your masochistic tendencies though?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:51:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:49:37 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hatch >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:53:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:20:57 -0300 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 >07:52:47 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished ><snip> >>>Hello Don, Jerry, others: >>>I switch channels the instant I hear somebody talking anything >>>like demonology, and UFOs, in the same breath. >>Good, Larry. As you should do. What was on the other channel? >Hi Guys! >Thirty years ago John Brent Musgrave was awarded a Canada >Council government grant to study the history of the UFO >phenomenon in Canada. The result of Musgrave's study was the >publication a few years later of the excellent reference book >titled 'UFO Occupants and Critters: The Patterns in Canada'. In >it are many examples of UFO entity cases that pre-date 1947, the >start of what many consider the start of the Modern UFO Era. >Both Don and I recently obtained our own copies of this book >through Stanton Friedman... >There is a short passage that I will quote below from >Musgrave's book that not only is at odds with what Don, Larry, >Jerry and many others ufologists believe regarding the real >answer to UFOs and the intelligence behind the UFO phenomenon >but that such thinking will also hinder the finding of the true >solution to the UFO mystery any time soon. >"The Condon study was made within the intellectual framework of >the extraterrestrial origin of UFO reports. While this idea >enjoyed great popular support, it was one that Drs. Hynek and >Jacque Vallee, among others, strongly urged the committee to >abandon. They argued that the ETH (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis) >should eb thought of as just one of many possible explanations. >But Condon, and some of the other members of the committee, >insisted that a major portion fo the the project be an attempt >to prove or disprove the alien origin of UFOs. This... lead >ultimately to the judgement of the reality and worth of >empirical data being made on the basis of whether or not a >particular hypothesis or explanation of that empirical data >proved to be tenable of not. It's as if an astronomer were to >reject the existence of lunar eclipses because he isn't willing >to accept that dragons can eat up the moon. ...many scientists >who had looked at the UFO reports had come to conclusion that >these reports represented useful data, but that they didn't >support the ETH hypothesis." >As we continue our own investigations into the still unsolved >mystery of UFOs, let us set aside our biases and pre-conceptions >so that we do not make the same mistakes that Edward Condon and >his fellow researchers made in their official investigation into >UFOs back in 1968. I wonder what their conclusions regarding >UFOs would have been and the current state and status of ufology >had they heeded the suggestions of Hynek and Vallee Hi Nick: Hynek and Vallee have suggested dimensional anomalies and the like. I have the Musgrave booklet and catalogued sightings from that. I don't think Hynek, Vallee and/or Musgrave would have considered Demonology for a split second.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 John Mack Radio Program From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:11:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:52:04 -0400 Subject: John Mack Radio Program Radio 4 in the UK will be broadcasting a program on John Mack on Wednesday June 8. Entitled Abduction, Alienation and Reason, the show will focus on his work with experiencers and his conflict with the Harvard academic establishment. The following hyperlink will take you to details of the show: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/newsletter/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:58:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:54:23 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez Hello All, I was contacted privately by someone who wasn't sure if they had already signed the petition. The person was afraid of mucking up the works by signing twice. A legitimate and thoughtful concern. To all... please do not hesitate to sign the petition. Even if you're not sure if you already signed it! One of the features we had built into the CGI* script/code was a piece that automatically rejects redundant signatures. We wanted to insure that there would be no possibility of duplication of signatures. Or for someone to sabotage the effort by entering the same 'joke name' over and over and skewing all the numbers/stats. So go on ahead and sign without fear of messing anything up on our end. :D Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition John Velez UN Petition Coordinator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Landahl From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:35:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:58:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Landahl >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:42:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:49:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >>>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage >>>people to take the time to study the videos carefully. I >>>have selected clips that show the objects that were >>>recorded maintaining a static 'formation' and distance >>>from one another in the sky. >>>This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask >>>any pilot. >Hello All, >>Yeah, I'll have to take a look at it. May I ask if you have a >>link to some analysis report for each of the videos? >Sure, you can ask. Did you see a link to the material there when >you visited? Or is it that you haven't been there yet and you're >just asking? Either way, there's an excellent way for you to >find out what is 'linked' and what isn't if you actually go out >there and check it out for yourself. >I'm not an "information booth." <snip> >>That's a splendid idea! Yes, we need to at least get a Ray >>Stanford type >What "type" is that? Idle gossip? Tongue-wag? Wash-woman? Did he >contact you, or have you two been bosom buddies for awhile? >Never mind. It's all rhetorical. >John Velez >Webmaster >Abduction Information Center Dear Listfolk, In defense of Ray Stanford's admirable history of scientific, solid data-based research please do note that Stanford developed, obtained funding for, implemented, and directed Project Starlight International. At the time - 1972 - this project was the world's only full-time facility employing a broad array of cutting-edge scientific instruments to gather, monitor, and record hard data from UFOs. The instrumentation was deployed at various locations over a 400-acre site northwest of Austin, TX. You can read some details about the project and the instruments used to gather UFO data in Stanford's book, Socorro Saucer in a Pentagon Pantry, pages. 176-190. He was also the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Instrumented UFO Research. Mr. Stanford's dedication to scientific research continues to this day in the field of paleontology, where he has become a leader noted for many pioneering fossil discoveries and complex, thorough analysis. He recently discovered and named an entirely new dinosaur ichnotaxon, and the paper discussing the discovery was peer-reviewed and published in the paleontology journal, Ichnos.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:02:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:38:04 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:08:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:18:12 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >But _now_ you want to 'talk.' >Wake up and smell the coffee lady! >Apologize. >Apologize for all the mean-spirited insults, lies and innuendo >or don't bother addressing any more posts to me in private, or >on this List. Instead of directing your anger at those who have violated you, your family and your life, you direct it outwards at those around you. I do not react to your anger because I know you are really crying inside. Anger is a reflection of someone in deep emotional pain. I am not the enemy, John. I am on your side. Believe it or not, I _am_ on your side. >Mr. Arturo Robles Gil and any video he may have recorded is not >dealt with or included in the web presentation I have made. <snip> Could you please indicate who took each clip - #2, #3, #4, #5 and #6 in your presentation and the date and location where each
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 06:15:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:41:53 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>To: >><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 >>03:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On >>UFO Research >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>To: >>>ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:41:33 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research ><snip> >>OK, John, prove me wrong. Instead of threatening, instead of >>claiming people don't buy the claims and videos of "fleets of >>UFO's over Mexico" because they are prejudiced, instead of >>changing the subject or going on about personal concerns, let us >>discuss the evidence or lack of in reference to the April 11th >>video footage presented by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil. >>(BTW, excellent job on the video clips you posted today! Finally >>some clear footage. Thank you so much! <grin>) >>Many have said the objects in the April 11th video footage >>look like balloons or white birds. >>The latter [birds] I believe to be baloney. It's a throw-away >>theory. It just confuses the issue which might be the aim in the >>first place. Shows no research. [See below] >>Where is the evidence to >>dispute these claims? In a post distributed to this List on >>May 2, 2005, a Mr. Raul Orozco is quoted as saying: >>"To be more specific I will show you a video of a bunch of >>balloons where you will clearly see when zooming to several of >>them their cord is visible." >>The original post can be found at: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m02-024.shtml >>Where can we go to review this footage of balloons in the sky? >>On April 27, 2005 in a post sent to the UFO UpDates List, >>Santiago Yturria Garza said: >>"Complementing your comments I would like to say that we have >>made many actual comparisons with balloons. Even expensive >>tests to be videotaped studying their behavior at certain >>altitudes. We have all these balloons fleets recreations on >>tape since 1994..." >I'd be more interested in seeing the videos of the balloons. The comparisons made with actual balloons and these UFO fleets are very interesting and I think leave no doubt about how diferent both of them behave. I have a MPEG video clip of one of these comparisons to send you, Don, by email (1.5 MB) for your evaluation if you want or if John Velez agrees I can send it to him to be posted so everyone can see what we are talking here. This videoclip compares the mentioned April 11, 2005 Fleet with a bunch of ballons from a mexican holiday. I would like to mention that the proccess of throwing balloons to the sky is expensive and requires helium wich in this quantity results of a high cost. Mexico city has an intense air traffic and to throw these amounts of balloons to the sky requires a special permission from the goverment and the aeronautic authorities just like in the US precisely to avoid the risk of an accident with those comercial airplanes. So far what we know by now is that these objects making those formations appear from nowhere, without making any sound and causing excitement, disconcert and uncertainty. We would like to get to the bottom of all this and find out what
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Brazilian UFO Disclosure On Coast To Coast From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:20:13 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:44:51 -0400 Subject: Brazilian UFO Disclosure On Coast To Coast
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:31:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:48:45 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>To: >><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 >>03:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On >>UFO Research <snip> >I'd be more interested in seeing the videos of the balloons. >I don't see the Mexican footage as being birds. I've seen birds >from all angles in including from above [once right through a >flock of seagulls (Briar Island) which scared the "you-know" out >of me] and have never seen them appear as these little round, >static balls. Have you ever video taped and/or photographed white birds flying high in the sky, Don? Both birds and balloons, of all colors, can appear as round, "glowing" spheres, balls, blobs, etc. on video tape and in photographs due to the distortions caused by using various media to capture distant images. What is seen with the naked eye can appear quite different when presented on video tape, in video stills, video clips and in photographs (digital and film based). For example, take a look at Page 3 in the section titled "Birds", images BVS73 and BVS74 (B=Bird, VS=Video Still) near the bottom of the page, Page 7, image BVS109 and Page 8, image BVS110 in the IFO Database at: http://ifo.s5.com Cotton seeds floating in the air can also appear as "glowing", round balls in the sky - see Page 1 under the section titled Debris in the IFO Database. A distinct characteristic I've noticed when examining video footage of birds in flight high in the sky is a specific movement around each birds as they flap their wings. These characteristics do not appear in video footage surrounding balloons, planes, debris or other objects. Although birds, free-floating balloons, debris and even airplanes can appear as round, "glowing" balls when video taped flying high in the sky or from far away, they do not remain static as we have seen in some of the video footage coming out of Mexico. Birds always display some movement when flying or they would fall. Debris and airplanes continue to move. And even though free-floating balloons high in the sky on days with little wind can appear "static", there is usually some slight movement that can be observed if you look closely. However, I have observed objects of an earthly origin that do appear as "round, static balls" under certain conditions. Once I have uploaded video clips of various IFO's to my web site later this week, we may have more to discuss in reference to the flight characteristics of birds, bugs, debris, airplanes, balloons and 'round, static balls'. >In keeping with the general run-on rhetoric about >what is and what isn't a shot of a bird or UFO here are the URLs >for some flocks of birds. If you chopped the wings off them and >painted them with reflective silver paint you would obviously >end up with something similar to what was photographed in Mexico >and thereby solving the case for the Mexican fleet. Here are a few more URLs with images of flocks of birds to add to your list: http://www.nvisible.com/nvisiblegraphics/ph/7/JAG/7JagmandirBirds.jpg http://www.oneocean.org/ambassadors/migratory_birds/images/birds_in_flight.jpg http://www.wbu.com/chipperwoods/photos/geese.htm (flock in flight further down page) And a nice web site by the Sociadad Audubon de Mexico, A.C. for more information about birds of Mexico at: http://www.audubonmex.org/index.htm <snip> >>I have also been waiting to hear the answers to some of Kyle >>King's questions but have yet to see them on this List. Can >>you tell me if there were any time/date stamps on the video >>taken by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil on April 11, 2005 that you >>personally reviewed or on the original video footage? What >>kind of camera did Mr. Gil use to film the April 11th footage >>and what was the zoom capability? And could you please tell us >>the official weather conditions for the day the footage in >>question was obtained such as: wind direction and speed, >>temperature, visibility, barometric pressure, etc.? >Good questions. Don't forget the cloud bases for these days >either for the photos which show the objects going behind then >emerging from clouds. And how about balloon launchings for these >dates and times. Time is very important because party and >weather balloons filled with helium rise, expanding gradually >then get really brittle from the cold at high altitudes >exploding at certain altitudes and usually after a short lengths >of time. Their life expectancy is very short. Excellent suggestions, Don. For some interesting photographs of balloon releases, try these URLs: (For the angel sites, I wish to express a special thanks to those who took the time to share these images and their losses with others. May they find peace and comfort.) http://www.peacewalkinternational.com/images/Balloon_visitor.jpg http://tinyurl.com/7afme These balloons had strings attached but you can't see them when high in the sky and far away. (See URL below) http://tinyurl.com/86lzf http://caywoodsfuneralhome.com/page8.html http://www.freewebs.com/kristendouglas/balloonrelease.htm This one is really sad but has great examples of how strings tend to "disappear" as balloons rise and the many shapes balloons appear to assume as they rise higher into the sky. http://www.iwsf.com/02UniversityChampionships/opening/opening.htm http://tinyurl.com/adjpy http://www.trisomyonline.org/sc2000ba5.htm http://www.mpip.org/memorial/balloon.html http://srv.fotopages.com/2/361335.jpg http://www.kckcc.edu/police/gallery/gallery4.psp At the URL above, click on each thumbnail for larger versions. If they had all been white balloons, they may have looked a lot like the objects in the "Fleets of UFO's over Mexico" videos when viewed on video tape, in video clips and video stills. Any strings attached would have become even more difficult to spot on video than in photographs due to the distortions caused by movement, Gibb's Effect and analog or digital artifact. Also note the way some of the balloons group together while some appear
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:58:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:30:26 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:51:46 -0700 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >I don't think Hynek, Vallee and/or Musgrave would have >considered Demonology for a split second. Wit all due respect, Larry, you are completely missing the point. Demonology and " dimensional anomalies and the like" may simply be different ways of looking at the same thing. Just because something is couched in religious terminology it isn't necessarily wrong, even to the most ardent secularist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: What's The Bounty On UFOs? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:27:29 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:32:45 -0400 Subject: Re: What's The Bounty On UFOs? - Boone >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:55:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: What's The Bounty On UFOs? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:27:18 EDT >>Subject: What's The Bounty On UFOs? >>I've just read a John Velez post where he pointed out the need >>for the UFO Community to pool resources. >>Considering the abduction problem I can see why. >I only wish that more would 'consider' it seriously. Contrary to >popular belief I am neither crazy or a liar. Something 'major' is >going on and people really need to know about it. Without a doubt! It's been going on since the dawn of history and with our rapidly growing populations more witnesses abound. It's not going to go away either. Having been a crime victim, yes you and any abductee are crime victims on a Federal level as kidnapping is a Federal crime, you're not being serviced as is your birthright. I wouldn't care if you or anyone within the U.S. says they were kidnapped by aliens or whatever, kidnapping is just that. It doesn't make you crazy or a liar it makes you a multiple victim of your birthrights being violated by criminals and neglected by those elected and appointed to uphold the law. Things always go downhill when the authorities don't do their job. >It's me and mine today. Could be you and yours tomorrow. Gad, I forget that term people used toward those during the Holocaust that didn't stand up to the Nazis. It fits right here. >>I'm sure if someone forked over $1 million or more with a >>penalty for those con artists and practical jokers, you'ld pull >>in a fish or two from somewhere especially those broke >former >>KGB agents and disgruntled government employees. :) >Yeah, but I'm afraid that the with the stakes so high you'll be >knee deep in con artists before the ink dries on the paper the >announcement of the 'reward' is printed on. Oh, there's a way around that I can assure you. Especially if those that come forward have to sign a contract before submitting their evidence. See I'm proposing a legal procedure. Whatever the prospects submit will also be submitted into the court system which means any bs and it's off to jail and definite lawsuit. >Imagine '115' Lazars! <lol> That I won't touch :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Los Alamos Whistleblower Beaten From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:22:11 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:37:10 -0400 Subject: Los Alamos Whistleblower Beaten Aloha all, here is a very disturbing story about a whistleblower who was clearly targetted for his revelations concerning inequitious financial practices at the Los Alamos nuclear facility. Tommy Hook was about to testify before a Congressional Committee with oversight of the Los Alamos facility. This is a vivid demonstration of the kind of negative treatment given to those who threaten to blow the whistle on the way classified projects are run, the financial irregularities associated with these, and/or the draconian security practices in place. In a recent paper, I've described how whistleblowers dealing with the even more highly classified projects concerning ETVs/EBEs are treated even more severely. http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo- Comment-32.htm Whistleblowers revealing inequitious practices within classified facilities deserve more protection and public recognition of their revelations of wrongdoing. When it comes to highly classified projects dealing with ETVs/EBEs, whistleblowers take extraordinary risks, and operate in a context that impacts significantly on normal procedural rules requiring hard evidence and documentation. For information on the difficulties faced by whistleblowers in general see the website for the Government Accountability Project: http://www.whistleblower.org/blowthewhistle.htm In peace Michael Salla www.exopolitics.org --- Source: CNN NewsCom http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/06/07/whistleblower.beaten.ap/ Tuesday, June 7 Los Alamos Whistle-Blower Beaten Outside Bar Whistle-blower Tommy Hook recovers Sunday at a Sante Fe, New Mexico, hospital. SANTA FE, New Mexico (AP) - A Los Alamos lab whistle-blower scheduled to testify before Congress was badly beaten in an attack outside a Santa Fe bar. Tommy Hook was in a hospital recovering from a fractured jaw and other injuries, his wife, Susan Hook, said Monday. Hook's wife and his lawyer believe the attack was designed to keep him quiet. Susan Hook said the assailants told her husband during the attack early Sunday that "if you know what's good for you, you'll keep your mouth shut." Tommy Hook has a pending lawsuit against the University of California alleging whistle-blower retaliation. He had been scheduled to testify before the House Energy and Commerce Committee later this month about alleged financial irregularities at the nuclear weapons lab. Police and the FBI said they are investigating. According to Hook's wife, the 52-year-old lab employee got a telephone call late Saturday night - after he was already in bed - wanting to meet with him at a Santa Fe bar about 45 minutes from their home. She said her husband told her the man never showed up, but as he was leaving the topless bar's parking lot, a group of men pulled him from his car and beat him. "They left him in the parking lot for dead," Hook's lawyer, Robert Rothstein, said Monday at a news conference where pictures of Hook's bruised and swollen face were passed around. His wife, who sobbed when the pictures were distributed, said the attackers "beat him up with their feet first, because he has shoe marks on his face, and then used their fists." Rothstein said the assailants didn't take Hook's wallet, other personal belongings or his car. In the absence of any other motive, it appears the beating was related to his whistle- blowing, Rothstein contended. "It is clear to us that this was a message," Susan Hook said. She said her husband had been told last week by a friend about someone who had information about the lab. A planned meeting with that informant on Friday never materialized, and Hook believed that's who he was going to meet on Saturday, she said. Susan Hook, who was in Albuquerque visiting their grown sons when the incident happened, said her husband did not frequent bars and she believed his account of the attack. The assailants did not specifically mention the lab, she also said. Lab spokesman Kevin Roark said the beating of Hook - who works in the Prime Contract Office, an internal oversight group - was "a senseless and brutal act and should not be tolerated." The university and the lab are "outraged" about the assault, according to a statement released by the lab. Hook and another whistle-blower, Chuck Montano, sued the university in March, alleging that after they uncovered management failures, university and lab managers tried to make their jobs miserable so they would quit.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:05:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:42:22 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 06:15:12 +0000 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >The comparisons made with actual balloons and these UFO fleets >are very interesting and I think leave no doubt about how >diferent both of them behave. >I have a MPEG video clip of one of these comparisons to send >you, Don, by email (1.5 MB) for your evaluation if you want or >if John Velez agrees I can send it to him to be posted so >everyone can see what we are talking here. >This videoclip compares the mentioned April 11, 2005 Fleet with >a bunch of ballons from a mexican holiday. I would like to >mention that the proccess of throwing balloons to the sky is >expensive and requires helium wich in this quantity results of >a high cost. >Mexico city has an intense air traffic and to throw these >amounts of balloons to the sky requires a special permission >from the goverment and the aeronautic authorities just like in >the US precisely to avoid the risk of an accident with those >comercial airplanes. >So far what we know by now is that these objects making those >formations appear from nowhere, without making any sound and >causing excitement, disconcert and uncertainty. >We would like to get to the bottom of all this and find out >what these things are. Santiago, Sure, send the MPG file to me or through John. I'd like to see it. You bring up an interesting point regarding the release of balloons and the possible interference with air traffic control and a danger to commercial, private or even military aircraft. Dealing with commercial and private aircraft, the problem might arise in the three major componants of flight-take off, cruise and landing. The first and last are the most critical and when aircraft are most vunerable. Suddenly encountering a large cluster of balloons while climbing out from the runway could cause a knee-jerk collison avoidence maneuver that could cause a serious loss of control and result in the pilot not having enough time to recover from the maneuver. The same problem arises on approach but more specifically while on final for landing. The other problem is the affect on the engines. A prop- driven aircraft is not as likely to be as suseptible to the regular party type balloon as an airbreathing jet. One or even a few balloons being sucked in by a jet is not likely to be of concern but injesting a dozen or more could cause enough interruption of airflow to cause a compressor stall causing the affected jet to spool down and requiring a re-lite. That takes time and time is a luxury you don't have during the take-off and landing phase, and is really critical during takeoff. Losing an engine during takeoff is one of the worst things that can happen during flight. The aircraft is at max take-off weight, the runway is or has run out below you, the jet is trying to turn itself into the dead engine causing more airframe [planform] drag, decreased speed and loss of lift and therefore loss of altitude. You are at high angle of attack and you have little option but to push the nose down, try for a relite and if it catches hope that the engine will spool up sfficiently ot produce power. If it doesn't then you are going to land straight ahead into whatever's down there. Note that in the case of airbreathers [jets] the object doesn't have to be stright in line to be sucked into the compressors. There is a dangerous low pressure area around a running jet engine that can extend outward many feet and even slightly behind the engine shaped like a mushroom with the stem being the center of injestion. Passing through a small group of ballons could result in dozens of them being injested. As for the prop driven, normally aspirated variety [that which I've been flying for 24 years] one or more balloons being sucked up and plastered against the ram-air airfilter on the nose behind the prop thereby plugging it off will cause the engine to fail. The same conditions apply then as with the airbreathers except turning into the bad engine in a single engine aircraft. Once covered over however, there's little likely hood of clearing the filter and getting the engine to re-start. Once more during take-off it's a landing straight ahead into whatever obstruction are there. Critical maneuvering time during loss of power are the main problems then with both of them. While in cruise flight in an airliner, maneuvering hastily away from a cloud of unknow objects that have suddenly appeared in the windscreen could result in serious injury to those passengers not strapped in or walking around in the aircraft. Such violent maneuvers or sudden encountered turbulance [Clear Air Turbulance-CAT-for example] have resulted in the loss of life. The release of balloons however by the public occurs frequently without clearences from ATC because basically the general public is ignorant of what can happen if balloons are released in close proximity to the airport. Note that weather balloons are frequently released at airports but these are during times when there is no reported traffic either at the airport or overflying it. These 3-4 foot diameter neoprene type balloons get up and climb quickly to altitude, expanding to 8-10 feet in diameter and then explode. Helium filled party balloons rise very quickly too. Air filled ballons just stay around ground level and are at the mercy of the winds and thermals.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: UFOs Are Birds? [was: National Or Cultural From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:09:10 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:50:59 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? [was: National Or Cultural >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:31:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0300 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >I'd be more interested in seeing the videos of the balloons. >>I don't see the Mexican footage as being birds. I've seen birds >>from all angles in including from above [once right through a >>flock of seagulls (Briar Island) which scared the "you-know" out >>of me] and have never seen them appear as these little round, >>static balls. >Have you ever video taped and/or photographed white birds flying >high in the sky, Don? Both birds and balloons, of all colors, >can appear as round, "glowing" spheres, balls, blobs, etc. on >video tape and in photographs due to the distortions caused by >using various media to capture distant images. What is seen with >the naked eye can appear quite different when presented on video >tape, in video stills, video clips and in photographs (digital >and film based). >For example, take a look at Page 3 in the section titled >"Birds", images BVS73 and BVS74 (B=Bird, VS=Video Still) near >the bottom of the page, Page 7, image BVS109 and Page 8, image >BVS110 in the IFO Database at: >Here are a few more URLs with images of flocks of birds to add to >your list: All the links you mentioned here just present still photos of birds an balloons but not actual footage. We know that it's absolutely required to see these birds or balloons in movement to make comparisons with those videos from Mexico and by consequence to establish their diferences or their similarities. A proper study and analysis require actual footage of these birds-balloons and you know it. Therefore you failed to present links to actual videos so your claims result irrelevant and inmaterial. It seems to me that you did not make a proper research and could'nt find any videos of these birds-balloons unless you convenientely avoided to present videos because of the clear diferences with the mexican footage. In any case I offered to provide a videoclip showing a comparison with actual balloons in the sky along with one of these UFO flotillas. This evidence may be a clear example of how diferent these UFOs and balloons are. We all want to check these features. Just keep in mind that I'm not saying anytime that these unknown objects in the sky may be alien crafts from a distant planet or anything like that. I say that once studying their flying
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:28:37 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:53:37 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:58:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:51:46 -0700 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>I don't think Hynek, Vallee and/or Musgrave would have >>considered Demonology for a split second. >With all due respect, Larry, you are completely missing the >point. Demonology and " dimensional anomalies and the like" may >simply be different ways of looking at the same thing. >Just because something is couched in religious terminology it >isn't necessarily wrong, even to the most ardent secularist. >We ignore Demonology at our peril in our quest to understand >the UFO phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:33:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:54:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - White >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:31:41 -0700 >Subject: Abductees - UK TV Request >"I received this request from Guy Manners of Unique Television >in the U.K." <snip> >.... We want to understand: >The stress caused by such a traumatic event. >The stigma associated with this phenomenon. >The constant fear of, or wish for, future abductions. >The development of `special abilities' such as telepathy and >healing. How about including the significant amount of _physical_ trace evidence of abductions? Body marks and "surgery"? Or, as Greg Boone just mentioned, clothing discovered in total disorder, inside out, shoes on wrong feet, etc.? That would be of _considerable_ interest to your viewers, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:30:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:56:42 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:58:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:51:46 -0700 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>I don't think Hynek, Vallee and/or Musgrave would have >>considered Demonology for a split second. >Wit all due respect, Larry, you are completely missing the >point. Demonology and " dimensional anomalies and the like" may >simply be different ways of looking at the same thing. >Just because something is couched in religious terminology it >isn't necessarily wrong, even to the most ardent secularist. >We ignore Demonology at our peril in our quest to understand the >UFO phenomenon. >Bob Shell Bob, Then it's up to you and other advocates to define precisely what you mean by 'demonology' and 'demons.' What is it, to your way of thinking, that makes application of this (presently undefined) concept applicable to UFOs? Why is it even appropriate to use what, in effect, is a term that carries such religious baggage when other terms and concepts are available? Is it, in your mind, somehow explanatory, merely descriptive, or what? I have no problem in considering possible other- dimensional origins, but 'demon' is a word with very strong connotations and its use must be justified one way or the other. - Dick BTW: I have a B.A. degree in Philosophy from Tulane University, and I am attuned to language use and semantics. In one of my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:59:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >Hello All, >I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage people to >take the time to study the videos carefully. I have selected >clips that show the objects that were recorded maintaining a >static 'formation' and distance from one another in the sky. >This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask any >pilot. Hi Everyone! John Velez has done a wonderful job in creating a web site so that everyone will now have the opportunity to view a selection of video clips with images that certainly do look like fleets of UFOs in the skies over Mexico. Many of us, including John and I, have strongly held, but often different, views as to what exactly these UFOs are and are not. Since John's interpretations were obviously biased by his great excitement over these UFO videos which he believes cannot be of birds, balloons or even hoaxes/manipulations, I would caution others who visit his web site not to readily accept everything they read but to see and judge for themselves. Thanks to the kindness of someone on the List, I was sent a video cassette featuring reporter/speaker Jaime Maussan which includes extensive footage of the "UFOs" taken with a FLIR video camera from an airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft as well as an assortment of Mexican "UFO Fleet" video clips, both very recent and from the past. I will refrain from sharing my own observations and comments until after some associates who are better qualified to evaluate the contents in this video cassette have had a chance to view it. I can report on their analysis as soon as I get it. One comment I will make here is John's claim, held also by others on the List, that balloons cannot maintain a "static" formation at high altitude since they would be pushed around every which way by the prevailing wind. The two video clips John used as an example of this static formation show that the UFOs are in fact slowing moving independently of each other very much like seagulls or glider pilots flying within a thermal vortex. Nothing strange or unusual about this. >No one has yet taken credit for these objects. If the objects >that have been recorded repeatedly are in fact, _not_ours,_ and >they demonstrate flight characteristics that our aircraft cannot >reproduce, showing the objects to be under somebody else's >'intelligent control,' <snip> I photographed one such "UFO fleet" that exhibited exactly such flight characteristics on Labour Day weekend, 1998. In fact, I was a passenger in one of these "UFOs" when I took the pictures! The large silent UFO I was onboard was a large spherical hot air balloon, one of over 100 which were part of the annual Gatineau Hot Air Balloon Festival that peppered the blue sky east of Ottawa - just like the UFO fleets in some of the Mexican videos. >Make up your own mind! <snip> Although this "UFO fleet" over Canada was must of been seen by at least a few tens of thousands of people living over a region of a few hundred square kilometers from where the balloons took off to where they came down (we came crashing down on a farmer's field, on the other side of a row of trees that helped to block the wind, creating a big circle of flattened crops!), why is it often that only one person witness living in Mexico City with a population nearly as big as all of Canada bothered to record and observe such historic UFO events? Could it be they either honestly misinterpreted what they saw or possibly were a little mischievous with their video cameras - not the first time this has happened! Just one of the many questions curious people need to have answers to before they can make up their own minds. Whatever these UFO fleets turn out to be, it will be a learning
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:58:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:09:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <gevaerd.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:10:41 -0300 >Subject: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting Online >Brazilian Air Force presents a video about the meeting with UFO >researchers at its website >There is no record of such a thing in the UFO literature, >ever. This is certainly an encouraging development. I was wondering if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 7 Re: John Keel Demolished - Gergrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:14:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:16:02 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Gergrman >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:57:57 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:27:40 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>>Ufology is not yet at the stage where we can rule out any idea >>>>about UFOs or the intelligences behind them with a high degree >>>>of certainty. >So saucers from the hollow earth are still a possibility? We can't >rule out Adamski's Venus or Bethurum's Clarion? What about >Woody Derenberger's Lanulos? Or Fort's sky islands? Or space >animals? Or Russian secret weapons? How about Sanderson's >hidden race of under-the-ocean OINTS (Other INTelligenceS)? >Survivors of Atlantis and Lemuria? What about deros? Jerry, Ivan Sanderson builds a strong circumstantial case for his "invisible residents" theory. Although his ideas might sound crazy at first glance, he buttresses them with scientific evidence and well documented sightings and research. Maybe there's some connection between Sanderson's suppositions and Clarion, or deros but I doubt he'd relish the association. His "Invisible Residents" theory is by far the simplest explanation for what's happening above our heads and in the waters around us. It doesn't need faster than light travel, or other dimensions, or time machines; all that's required is a simple understanding of evolution and an appreciation for immense spans of time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 23 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:14:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:22:36 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 23 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 23 June 8, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ UFO ACTIVITY INCREASES IN IRAN On Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 12 noon, tourist Elizabeth B. was visiting the tomb of King Cyrus the Great in Iran when she had an unusual sighting. "Facing the monolith, the sun was overhead yet behind me," she reported, "I believe I was facing north." "I looked up over my left shoulder to see a disk about 20 feet (6 meters) high, mindlessly letting out vapour around its edge. I believe it was about 20 to 30 feet (6 to 9 meters) in diameter, grey in colour. It was a hovering UFO. It seemed as though it could have been spying. I felt intimidated and looked down at the ground and saw its shadow moving around in front of me. I did NOT want to interact with it." "This is the second UFO I've seen. The first was in Rockville, Maryland in December of 2004. I felt that both times I was being watched. The disk was grey or dull silver; the sun was behind it, as this is just an approximation. I only saw it hovering, then its shadow moving around in a circular, slightly erratic pattern for about 20 seconds." UFO activity continues in Iran, mostly on the border of Esfahan and Chahar Mahal Bakhtiari province. According to Iranian ufologist Kufa Yildaz, "luminous disks" and "a long silver cylinder" have been seen passing over the Kuha Yezagro mountains at dusk and "in the late evening." Cities reporting UFO sightings in April and May include Najafabad, Falavarjan and Riz, all west of Isfahan. (Many thanks to Ayesha al-Khatabi and Kufa Yildaz for these news reports.) (Editor's Note: Isfahan is the site of one of Iran's major nuclear research centers.) FOUR SCHOOLGIRLS SPOT A UFO IN CHILE On Thursday, June 2, 2005, four teenaged girls at a Roman Catholic high school in Puerto Saavedra in southern Chile "saw a UFO appear suddenly out of a fuzzy cloud." "It was so fast it looked like an asteroid descending," eyewitness Victoria T. reported, "It was after a school class meeting. Three kids and myself were out in the school's parking lot when a bright light caught our attention. Observing it, we saw that it was not so high in the sky. It was white with a kind of cloud surrounding it, with color tones of yellowish-white and turquoise-blue." "You could see that it was moving fast. We stood there watching it fall from the sky until it nearly struck the earth. But then it swerved suddenly to the side and went behind a tree. Then a burst of light lengthwise, then nothing. There was no sign of anything. Just the four of us and what seemed like smoke in the air which had a dense smell." Another witness stated, "It looked like the moon was falling at great speed. But it was white with a touch of yellow and turquoise colors. Maybe 20 to 30 meters (66 to 100 feet) high. It was travelling really fast." Puerto Saavedra is located 200 kilometers (120 miles) south of Concepcion in southern Chile. (Email Form Report) PERU'S AIR FORCE KEPT FILES ON UFOs "What would happen if the existence of alien life-- and the fact that it lives among us--was confirmed? The answer is in the hands of (Peru's) military, who possess the documents and evidence regarding UFO sightings, handled by the United States as super-secret information. The disclosure," says Peruvian ufologist Mario Zegarra, "would prove that man is only a primitive creature in the face of extraterrestrial intelligence." "Mario Zegarra claims that the Peruvian armed forces, specifically its" Fuerza Aerea Peruana (FAP or Peruvian Air Force--J.T.), conceal information on UFOs seen in various parts of the (South American) country, which is made known not to the national government" in Lima "but to the U.S. and the agencies researching the areas where the strange craft were detected." Peru's "armed forces and senior police officials cover up the information, considering it to be top- secret." "'Claiming that extraterrestrial life exists not only in other galaxies, but upon Earth itself, is a rejection of scientific theories on human evolution; in other words, humanity's forbears are not apes, but aliens,' explained ufologist Mario Zegarra, 'Being a superior civilization and possessing advanced knowledge, it would dismantle U.S. power. The (Peruvian) military itself has sighted UFOs from its craft. However, they must hold their peace, as it is classified information that is best kept from the public.'" "The spacecraft described by (Peru's) military are allegedly manufactured using a solid material that is different from materials on Earth. Zegarra adds that we are on the brink of another UFO wave as intense as those which have been occurring at periodic intervals for the last 40 years." "One of the top-secret documents presented by Dr. Zegarra states that on May 9, 1980, while a group of military officers from the FAP were beginning their daily formation on the Mariano Melgar Air Base in the barrio La Joya (district)" of Arequipa, Peru's second-largest city, "they detected the presence of a UFO at the end of the runway and at a height (altitude) of 1,800 feet (640 meters) above the surface." "The object, resembling a weather balloon used for maritime navigation, was moving over the area near the airport. For this reason, Lt. Oscar Santa Maria, the pilot of one of the fighters, was given the order to take off and intercept the object. After a third pass, the pilot opened fire on the object without causing any apparent damage," and the UFO began 'moving away quickly.'" "The second sighting has a special characteristic, as it is described as a shining object, according to a translation of the official Pentagon report, a document made available through the Freedom of Information Act and featuring the eyewitness account of Major Santa Maria Huertas" and his pursuit "of a UFO aboard his (Russian- built) Sukhoi SU-22" fighter jet. "At Puerto Maldonado," in eastern Peru, "in 1952, customs chief Domingo Troncoso managed to photograph a UFO. The object was moving along in silence, leaving a long and dense contrail in its wake. It's estimated speed was 1,500 miles per hour." "In 1967, another flying saucer was photographed by Augusto Arranda in Yungay, as he liked the soaring mountains of the (Callejon de Huaylas) region." "In 1966, an extraterrestrial object came in for a landing at the Talara air base," located 600 kilometers (360 miles) north of Lima, the national capital. "In 1979, a three-legged extraterrestrial vehicle landed in Chachapoyas." "Mario Zegarra states that the persons holding the proof are (Peru's) military and intelligence services. The accounts provided by Dr. Zegarra coincide with the ones given by researcher J.J. Benitez, who states that military personnel having access to this information insist that the public is not ready to know the truth." "Zegarra and Benitez claim that there have been hundreds of UFO sightings over or near military bases, atomic silos, warships, transport and combat aircraft, due to the potential for destruction they can cause. In this regard, anyone who dares to dislose secret documents kept in any (Peruvian) army, police or air base could even be 'terminated.'" (See the Peruvian newspaper El Chino for May 27, 2005. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Alex Sender y Monica Gaetano de Silva por este articulo de diario.) SAUCER SEEN BY MAN IN CAMP HILL, PENNSYLVANIA On Monday, May 30, 2005, at 8:15 p.m., eyewitness J.H. was outdoors in his hometown of Camp Hill, Pennsylvania (population 7,636) "when I noticed an object just above the western horizon here in Cumberland County. It was moving slowly. The object moved slowly west, then east, then north and finally departed to the west." "As the object was above a stand of pine trees, I first thought it was a bird that had caught my attention. Then, to the west of this, I saw the object sort of hovering. It seemed too big for a bird and a little too high up. I watched the object from my car as it slowly moved around and toward the tree line. I got out of my car to get a better line of sight. At that point, the object seemed to vanish." J.H. described the UFO as "dull grey, flat, possibly oval in shape. My best guess for height is about 500 feet (150 meters), maybe less. Viewing the object, it was moving around slowly. The object appeared to vanish, and I lost sight of it." Camp Hill, Pa. is on Route 114 about 10 miles (16 kilometers) west of Harrisburg, the state capital. (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS ORANGE UFO SEEN NEAR HAMMOND, LOUISIANA On Saturday, May 28, 2005, just after midnight, eyewitness Shannon Brewer reported, "I was driving on Interstate (Highway) 55 southbound from Hammond (population 17,639) to La Place, Louisiana (population 27,684) and listening to a CD. When I hit around Mile Marker 6, I noticed something in the sky outside my passenger window. I looked at it and first thought it could be a plane, but it was flying too low and it was too large to be a plane." "I slowed down and studied it. It was a large, orange-yellow, very bright ball moving in the same direction (south--J.T.) but slower. It seemed to be close to me, flying just down to the tree line. This object stayed in the sky for about five minutes and then it was gone." "I continued driving and kept looking for it to appear again, but it didn't." "When I got home, I couldn't get it out of my mind. I called my fiance and told him I saw something in the sky and it could've been a UFO. Of course, he said it was probably a plane or something, but I know it wasn't. I am very positive the bright object I saw was a UFO." Hammond, La. is about 40 miles (64 kilometers) north of New Orleans. (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS WHITE UFO SIGHTED IN MOAB, UTAH On Sunday, May 29, 2005, at 10 p.m., Ed Willey was outdoors in his hometown of Moab, Utah (population 850) "when I saw something approach from the east, out of the desert," he reported, "A small white light that appeared to be and moved like a satellite, only a little bit bigger. It seemed to slow down or stop. Then the light got much brighter (maybe twice as bright as Jupiter-- E.W.). I thought it was a plane that had turned towards me and had its landing lights on. But then the object suddenly changed direction and vanished." "It looked like a satellite for maybe five minutes, got super-bright for three seconds, and then was gone in a second or two." Moab is on Highway 191 in southeastern Utah, located approximately 238 miles (380 kilometers) southeast of Salt Lake City, the state capital. NIGHT SAUCER SIGHTED IN SATELLITE BEACH, FLORIDA Just after midnight on Wednesday, June 1, 2005, Marge Northdurft reported, "I was walking my dogs" in her hometown of Satellite Beach, Florida (population 9,577). I'm not sure if it was midnight or just after. I was quite startled when, in an instant, which couldn't have been any longer than a second, I saw an object far above the rooftop of my neighbor's house. It was like a flash-- it happened so fast." "The object was very large, at least 40 feet (12 meters) long, and it seemed slightly oval-shaped and illuminated with a rosy color. There was no sound and no obvious lights." "I also saw at least two, or possibly more, very dark, blackish doorways or motifs in a rectangular shape. Inside of these were large, narrow, horizontal windows, which seemed to be clear. But I saw no movement inside. I could not see the top or bottom of the object, just the side facing me. I have no idea how it arrived, and it did not fly away--it just vanished." "I haven't seen a UFO for over twenty years and, with it being so close, I'm very concerned. The dogs didn't seem to be bothered by it. They didn't even bark. I'm wondering if it's always there, and I just haven't been able to see it before." "I find it very mysterious how it appeared and vanished so quickly." "When I had my first UFO sighting, I was living in Missouri. It was an illuminated triangular-shaped object, which was hovering high in the sky over a cloverleaf shopping area. My son was in the car with me, and he also saw it. Within seconds, the object shot out two beams of light and moved straight up out of sight." Satellite Beach, Fla. is located 3 miles (5 kilometers) north of Melbourne and 173 miles (276 kilometers) north of Miami. (Email Form Report) OPPORTUNITY BREAKS FREE OF MARTIAN SAND DUNE "The Mars rover Opportunity resumed rolling freely across the Martian surface Saturday," June 4, 2005, "after scientists freed it from a sand dune where it had been mired for nearly five weeks, a NASA project manager said." "Engineers at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in Pasadena, California, "which manages the mission, cheered when images beamed back to Earth showed the rover's wheels were free." "'We've got a working rover on Mars that cost $400 million to build and...keep working,' project manager Jim Erickson said, 'I'd like to wear it out rather than lose it.'" "A photograph taken by Opportunity and posted on the laboratory's Web site showed the long tracks of its wheels crossing a featureless dune." "Opportunity's wheels started slipping (Tuesday) April 26 (2005) during a planned 295-foot (89-meter) excursion. While trying to drive over a foot-high (30- centimeter) sand dune, the robotic explorer stopped moving, its wheels hub-deep in soft soil." "Engineers spent weeks with an Opportunity mock-up figuring out what commands to give the robot to free it, but the maneuvers took time. The rover inched forward less than a foot in a month, losing most of its traction every time it tried to roll." "'It's kind of like we were swimming through it,' Erickson said." "But on Saturday morning, data showed that Opportunity was free and had moved several feet across the dune." "Erickson said engineers want to be sure the rover will not encounter any more (sand) patches that could trap it again. It will be Monday or Tuesday night before a test drive is ordered, he said." "Opportunity and its twin rover, Spirit, have been exploring opposite sides of Mars since landing in January 2004. Both rovers have long outlasted their primary, three month missions." In other Mars news, "NASA is moving ahead with plans to put a long-armed lander on Mars' icy north pole to search for clues to water and signs of life." "The $386 million Phoenix Mars is scheduled to touch down in the Martian Arctic in May 2008. The probe will use its robotic arm to scoop up soil samples to analyze for traces of ice and evidence of ancient microbes." "In 2002, the Mars Odyssey orbiter spotted evidence of ice-rich soil near the Arctic surface. Phoenix will be the first mission of the low-budget Mars Scout program." (See USA Today for June 6, 2005, "Mars rover back on track after five weeks," page 3A, and "New lander to visit Mars' north pole," page 5D.) UFO ROUNDUP REVIEW OF RECENT BOOKS Is E.T. Here? - This book, by Robert Trundle, Ph.D., is a must-have for any ufologist's library. Not only does it discuss many of the issues involving reported contacts with extraterrestrials, it provides reproduced documents from both government and researchers' files on famous contact cases of the past fifty years. I thought I knew something about the Majestic 12 case and the MAJIC files. But then I read Trundle's erudite and comprehensive distillation of the key facts, and it really took my breath away. It made me appreciate the tons of back-breaking research that went into Stanton Friedman's original expose. If there was a Nobel Prize for ufology, Stan should have won it hands-down. Trundle did an excellent job on some of the near- forgotten UFO cases of the past, such as the "electronic interference" experienced by the U.S. Air Force B-47 bombers back in June 1955 and Men In Black (MIB) involvement in the Rex Heflin case in Santa Ana, California in 1965. I was particularly intrigued by the case of M.Sgt. Alex Tremulis, who was stationed at Wright Field (later Wright-Patterson Air Force Base) in Ohio in 1944, and claims to have seen aliens examining wreckage of a Nazi V- 2 rocket in the company of U.S. Army Air Technical Intelligence officers. That one comes straight out of the "Foo Fighters" era of World War II, and it makes you wonder what was going on at Wright-Pat during the last year of the Roosevelt administration. Grab it, fellow ufologists. This book is a keeper. You can order Is E.T. Here? by credit card from Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks or Amazon.com. The vital data includes: Is E.T. Here? by Robert Trundle, Ph.D., EcceNova Editions, Victoria, B.C., Canada, 2005, ISBN No. 0- 9735341-2-5. Zorro - I don't customarily review fiction, but I'll make an exception for this well-crafted novel. I'll confess I was curious. Given that the title character has gone from Johnston McCulley's original 1919 novella through several movies, two TV shows and a handful of follow-up books, I didn't think it possible for any author to tie all of the legend's threads together. But Isabel Allende did it and did it well. She takes us from Diego de la Vega's birth in the new Alta California province of Nueva Espana (now the USA's state of California) in 1795 to his training as a master swordsman in Europe to a surprising encounter with pirate Jean Lafitte in Louisiana to his return to Los Angeles in 1816. I always suspected that Diego was a little off-the- wall. Now I know for certain, because only a lunatic would invade the La Ciudela fortress in Barcelona, Spain and humiliate the agents of Joseph Fouche, Napoleon's chief of the secret police. During his career at Napoleon's elbow, Fouche sent a lot of headless bodies floating down the Seine. Allende's forte is characters, and there are plenty of memorable ones here, particularly Nuria, the chaperone of Juliana, Diego's first love. Muchas gracias, Isabel, for letting us all relive life in (Napoleonic) wartime Barcelona. To order: Zorro by Isabel Allende, HarperCollins Publishers, New York, N.Y., 2005, ISBN No. 0-06-077897-0. Well, that's it for this week. Join us again in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth--and occasionally, Mars-- brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you next week! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites and in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Roswell Festival Offers A Chance To Play Alien From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:27:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:27:09 -0400 Subject: Roswell Festival Offers A Chance To Play Alien Source: The Globe & Mail - Toronto http://tinyurl.com/9zc4p Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Roswell Festival Offers A Chance To Play Alien By Laszlo Buhasz and Adam Bisby The elaborately costumed, and the curious, will soon gather once again in southern New Mexico for a chance to take part in what has become an annual tradition: Roswell's UFO Festival, planned for July 1 to 4. While some participants wander around in alien costumes and others defend their UFO research, the festival is generally aimed at providing entertainment and a little education. A 1947 crash north of Roswell, the so-called =93Roswell Incident,=94 spawned decades of debate, which still continues: Was it merely a weather balloon, as the government claimed, or a UFO? Activities include a parade, a workshop on alien mind-control techniques and a chance to visit the UFO Museum and Research
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Weber From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:38:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:28:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Weber >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>Hello All, >>I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage people to >>take the time to study the videos carefully. I have selected >>clips that show the objects that were recorded maintaining a >>static 'formation' and distance from one another in the sky. >>This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask any >>pilot. Hi, Nick, >John Velez has done a wonderful job in creating a web site so >that everyone will now have the opportunity to view a selection >of video clips with images that certainly do look like fleets of >UFOs in the skies over Mexico. I agree. >I photographed one such "UFO fleet" that exhibited exactly such >flight characteristics on Labour Day weekend, 1998. In fact, I >was a passenger in one of these "UFOs" when I took the pictures! >The large silent UFO I was onboard was a large spherical hot air >balloon, one of over 100 which were part of the annual Gatineau >Hot Air Balloon Festival that peppered the blue sky east of >Ottawa - just like the UFO fleets in some of the Mexican videos. I guess what would help me make up my mind about the OVNI footage is not someone saying these are balloons or birds - but seeing footage of balloons or birds that resemble the OVNI clips. I haven't seen anything thus far in Amy's posting that even comes close. I've seen stills of birds that look exactly like birds, and stills of glass beads and balloons that look exactly like glass beads and balloons. C'mon - none of us are idiots, and I'd bet a buck the first thought for all of us looking at this footage is that they are either birds or balloons - and they may be. But this OVNI footage also looks unique to me. I know I've never seen anything like it. If you have a video clip or two or stills that look even remotely similar, why don't you post them?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Things Keel-ian From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:55:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:32:01 -0400 Subject: Things Keel-ian Greetings, all: In regard to the continuing discussion regarding the John Keel- ian "ultraterrestrial" concept, I feel compelled to throw my two-cents-worth in, as it were. I have concerns at several levels, but I'll address only one, the seemingly vitriolic disparaging of "religion". I share with Dick Hall a background not only in philosophy but theology (the study of God through his self-revelation and the application of logic and reason=97not to be confused with religion) as well. I contend that even those who speak sneeringly regarding "religion" are just as guilty of holding to one (a religion) as the most fervent "believer" of any stripe you may choose. Religion is a field of study falling under the broader heading of anthropology =97 the study of man, or for the more politically correct, humanity. Religion as an academic discipline concerns itself principally with the study of humanity's attempts to understand, access, appease, and avail themselves of a deity.) The word religion carries several connotations, but in the context with which we are dealing here, I feel it is best considered as defined (in part) by Merriam-Webster=92s Third New International Dictionary: 7 a: a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness, and faith: a value held to be of supreme importance (by making democracy our religion and by practicing as well as preaching its doctrines=97W.O.Douglas) (Marxism was his religion) (he has made a religion of pleasure, and it is a brave thing to do these days =97 Gerald Sykes) b : a quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing (a religion with him to preserve in good condition all that had lapsed from his mother's hands =97Thomas Hardy). With this in mind, a vital point emerges. Religion most assuredly includes atheism, humanism, agnosticism (interestingly derived from the same Latin root which means "ignoramus"), socialism, Marxism, Maoism, inclusivism, feminism, Scientism, and on and on, ad nauseum. Add any "ism" you might choose to the list. So. with all due respect, I would inquire of Don Ledger as to how he himself has pared away the "religious trappings" of whatever "ism" to which he subscribes? An atheist cannot look at the world around them, free from the presuppositions their position carries. Neither can the humanist, agnostic, Marxist, Maoist, Inclusivist, Feminist or Scientist. (I use these terms with no intent to disparage any "ism" or its followers.) It seems clear to me, that if I, as a Christian, don=92t let my Christian beliefs impact on every aspect of my life =97 if that is, they make no practical difference to how I view and interact with the world around me =97 then I am, for all intents and purposes, a practical atheist. I see nothing anti-intellectual in the consideration of a class of creatures commonly referred to as "demons" or their antithetical counterparts, "angels." I find nothing in the acceptance of the concept of a life form which exists in a realm separate from, but intersecting with, our little piece of the space-time continuum which can in any way be construed as either anti-intellectual, or somehow smacking of "medieval superstition" as I believe my friend Jerry Clark termed it. John Keel has certainly demonstrated considerable laxity in the handling of facts at times. But as with every account, written by any human hand, one must always remember: caveat lector =97 let the reader beware. While not attempting to apologize for, or justify the errors in his work, Keel has, however, always maintained that he is only a reporter, a recorder of tales, and not a researcher who is either determining or declaiming their absolute truth. =46rom a classically conservative Christian viewpoint, there is nothing in Scripture, Tradition, or Reason which precludes the existence of extraterrestrial life. And I see nothing in Science, which precludes the existence of realms of existence transcendent to, but intersecting with, our own. In fact, quantum mechanics and chaos theory seem to point to the inevitability of just that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:34:26 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Clark >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:14:48 -0700 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:57:57 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:27:40 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>So saucers from the hollow earth are still a possibility? We can't >>rule out Adamski's Venus or Bethurum's Clarion? What about >>Woody Derenberger's Lanulos? Or Fort's sky islands? Or space >>animals? Or Russian secret weapons? How about Sanderson's >>hidden race of under-the-ocean OINTS (Other INTelligenceS)? >>Survivors of Atlantis and Lemuria? What about deros? >Ivan Sanderson builds a strong circumstantial case for his >"invisible residents" theory. Although his ideas might sound >crazy at first glance, he buttresses them with scientific >evidence and well documented sightings and research. Maybe >there's some connection between Sanderson's suppositions and Clarion, or deros but I doubt he'd relish the association. >His "Invisible Residents" theory is by far the simplest >explanation for what's happening above our heads and in the >waters around us. It doesn't need faster than light travel, or >other dimensions, or time machines; all that's required is a >simple understanding of evolution and an appreciation for >immense spans of time. I wouldn't dignify Sanderson's batty notion in that book, which reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line in that crank classic. He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and quite mad." When I quoted that line once to a prominent Fortean friend, he
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:59:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:38:43 -0400 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:31:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0300 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>To: >>><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 >>>03:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On >>>UFO Research ><snip> >>I'd be more interested in seeing the videos of the balloons. >>I don't see the Mexican footage as being birds. I've seen birds >>from all angles in including from above [once right through a >>flock of seagulls (Briar Island) which scared the "you-know" out >>of me] and have never seen them appear as these little round, >>static balls. >Have you ever video taped and/or photographed white birds flying high in the sky, Don? Both birds and balloons, of all colors, can appear as round, "glowing" spheres, balls, blobs, etc. on video tape and in photographs due to the distortions caused by using various media to capture distant images. What is seen with the naked eye can appear quite different when presented on video tape, in video stills, video clips and in photographs (digital and film based). >For example, take a look at Page 3 in the section titled "Birds", images BVS73 and BVS74 (B=Bird, VS=Video Still) near the bottom of the page, Page 7, image BVS109 and Page 8, image BVS110 in the IFO Database at: >http://ifo.s5.com I have to ask this question, Amy. Other than the first picture on that page [obviously a bird] how do you know for certain these were birds? Were the wings evident with the naked eye but the subsequent video did not indicate wings. I don't own a video camera [I used to borrow from work] but do have both digital and film cameras. I've shot many photos from the air but little from the ground of the sky except for airshows. I should ask as well whether you used digital zoom or optical zoom to photograph these objects. Digital zoom should be outlawed. This question needs to be answered in the Mexican footage as well as what formats were used to record the images. >Cotton seeds floating in the air can also appear as "glowing", >round balls in the sky - see Page 1 under the section titled >Debris in the IFO Database. >A distinct characteristic I've noticed when examining video >footage of birds in flight high in the sky is a specific >movement around each birds as they flap their wings. These >characteristics do not appear in video footage surrounding >balloons, planes, debris or other objects. >Although birds, free-floating balloons, debris and even >airplanes can appear as round, "glowing" balls when video taped >flying high in the sky or from far away, The problem there is when you zoom in, particularly digitally, you overload/overexpose the pixels [CCDs] with light and the pixel becomes the shape rather than the object. Over enlargement tends to flatten the image as well due to the shape of the CCD, which if memory serves is roughly the same ratio as the actual picture ratio. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Additionally you have these photos enlarged 250 times thruogh a computer program which intoduces it's own "noise" to the photos. Buy taking a zoomed in photo and magnifying it you effectively blow up the pixels and rather than enlarging the original you bubble up the thre or 5 pixels of the distant object to the point where it colud look like anything. they do not remain static as we have seen in some of the video footage coming out of Mexico. The Mexican photos that I've seen do not appear to show the forced focusing usually associated with videos of aerial objects. Even at a distance they appear to be solid , round orbs not fuzzy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:54:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:42:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - Rimmer >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:33:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Abductees - UK TV Request >>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:31:41 -0700 >>Subject: Abductees - UK TV Request ><snip> >>.... We want to understand: >>The stress caused by such a traumatic event. >>The stigma associated with this phenomenon. >>The constant fear of, or wish for, future abductions. >>The development of `special abilities' such as telepathy and >>healing. >How about including the significant amount of _physical_ trace >evidence of abductions? Body marks and "surgery"? Or, >as Greg Boone just mentioned, clothing discovered in total >disorder, inside out, shoes on wrong feet, etc.? >That would be of _considerable_ interest to your viewers, and >would help to shatter the undeserved 'wacko' status some people >and almost every media official ascribe to abductions. You think someone turning up at the TV studio with their pants
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: UFOs Are Birds? - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:18:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:46:16 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? - Hebert >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:09:10 +0000 >Subject: UFOs Are Birds? [was: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research] >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:31:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>For example, take a look at Page 3 in the section titled >>"Birds", images BVS73 and BVS74 (B=Bird, VS=Video Still) near >>the bottom of the page, Page 7, image BVS109 and Page 8, image >>BVS110 in the IFO Database at: >>Here are a few more URLs with images of flocks of birds to add to >>your list: Hi, Santiago: UFOs are not birds except to those who see UFOs in every flying object they observe in the sky. Shall we coninue... >All the links you mentioned here just present still photos of >birds an balloons but not actual footage. We know that it's >absolutely required to see these birds or balloons in movement >to make comparisons with those videos from Mexico and by >consequence to establish their diferences or their similarities. >A proper study and analysis require actual footage of these >birds-balloons and you know it. Therefore you failed to present >links to actual videos so your claims result irrelevant and >inmaterial. >It seems to me that you did not make a proper research and >could'nt find any videos of these birds-balloons unless you >convenientely avoided to present videos because of the clear >diferences with the mexican footage. In any case I offered to >provide a videoclip showing a comparison with actual balloons in >the sky along with one of these UFO flotillas. This evidence may >be a clear example of how diferent these UFOs and balloons are. >We all want to check these features. First of all, Santiago, I'm having to do the work _you_ and your associates should have done and presented to the public along with all your "Fleets Of UFOs" video footage and claims. You and your friends are the ones claiming these objects are UFOs and cannot possibly be anything else yet do not provide sufficient evidence to definitively rule out birds, balloons, etc. You say comparative studies were done but nothing of this nature has yet been presented for peer review. Talk is cheap. Second, the burden of proof is on those making incredible claims - that means you and your associates are responsible for providing evidence to support _your_ claims before you have the right to go around saying others are wrong. Just putting video footage out on the internet, on TV programs, at UFO conferences, etc. is not research nor is it an investigation. And why did John present video clips #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 with no titles, no photographer's names, no dates, no locations, or any relevant research information in his presentation? Why are these titles missing? Who shot which video? What is going on here? Three video clips are presented next to an article with your name on it at: http://www.ufo.com.br/videos/mexico.htm You speak of videos taken by Arturo Robles Gil in association with the three video clips. The first set of objects in the first video clip next to this article attributed to you look almost exactly like the objects in clip #4 in John's presentation at: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni3.html Did Arturo Robles Gil take this video footage? If not, who did? Where was this footage, in clip #4 in John's presentation, taken? What date? Time? Furthermore, clips #2, 3 and 5 in John's presentation at: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni2.html and http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni3.html look almost exactly like the second set of objects in the first video clip next to the article in which you describe video tape taken by Arturo Robles Gil. Were clips #2, 3 and 5 in John's presentation taken by Mr. Arturo Robles Gil? If not, who took this footage and the date, time, location, etc.? The video clips and article with your name on it all refer to Arturo Robles Gil yet John said, "Mr. Arturo Robles Gil and any video he may have recorded is not dealt with or included in the web presentation I have made." Were any of the original video clips in John's presentation taken by Arturo Robles Gil? In my original post (which you seem to have conveniently removed from your reply), I said, "Once I have uploaded video clips of various IFO's to my web site later this week, we may have more to discuss in reference to the flight characteristics of birds, bugs, debris, airplanes, balloons and 'round, static balls'." Please pay attention, Santiago, and try to be patient. I have 8 years of IFO video footage to sort through and upload clips for you and others to review. Rest assured I am working on it and you will know when it is finally available (soon). However, the burden of proof STILL rests squarely on your shoulders and the shoulders of those promoting these videos as "Fleets of UFOs Over Mexico". You and others have yet to even clarify who took which videos, where, when, types of cameras used, model, zoom capability, wind speed and direction, cloud bases, temperature, barometric pressure, visibility, balloon launches for the dates and times in question (if this was investigated, please cite sources contacted), exact lengths of each video, any breaks in filming sequences, etc. If you want to point fingers demanding "proper research" then you need to do this yourself first. After you provide researchers and investigators the information and materials needed to do the necessary evaluations, and not just those who will say what you want them to say, then we will talk about "proper research". In fact, in all fairness, it would be nice if you could send me an uncut, unedited, full length copy of Arturo Robles Gil's April 11, 2005 video footage as well as copies of the other footage under investigation. I will
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 05:50:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:11:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Hebert >From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:38:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >I haven't seen anything thus far in Amy's posting that >even comes close. Hold on, Sweetheart, I'm just getting started! ;> Thought I'd start with what's available on the internet then work into the rest as I get it uploaded to my new web site (which I'm having to set up as it wasn't scheduled to open for another month). Why is it alleged videos of UFOs are welcomed with open arms yet evidence to the contrary is poo-poohed, criticized and dismissed almost immediately?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Proof Of ET By Genetic Research/Matching? From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:53:00 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:14:37 -0400 Subject: Proof Of ET By Genetic Research/Matching? Hello List Last night a thought occurred to me in regard to proving ET/UFO's and abductions by ET. Many abductees report interference and some pregnancies after the event. Could not a proof be obtained by genetic analysis and matching be done with time taken into account together with location of the person/s? Could the analysis prove non-relation therefore give the proof necessary? This could be expensive but as an abductee myself I would be willing to participate fully in DNA profiling as, maybe, many others would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 UFOs Ours Or Theirs? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:22:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:22:43 -0400 Subject: UFOs Ours Or Theirs? Source: Phenomena Magazine http://tinyurl.com/a3g6y Wednesday, June 8, 2005 UFOs: Ours Or Theirs? Project Silver Bug Man-Made UFOs By: Nick Redfern Phenomena Co-Editor For years, rumors have circulated to the effect that some UFOs are the result of classified, man-made projects, rather than the product of bug-eyed aliens from the other side of the galaxy. Certainly, the most famous domestic flying saucer was the Avrocar. In 1953, it was revealed by the Toronto Star that Avro Canada was working to perfect its very own flying saucer. As a result, the Avrocar made its first =96 and distinctly unsuccessful - "flight" in December 1959. Two years later it was barely in the air; and the US Department of Defense =96 which had shown a lot of interest in the project and had been working closely with Avro =96 severed its ties with the project, as the following DoD document notes: "From 1958 on, Aircraft Lab had many doubts about feasibility as expressed in correspondence and project reviews. On basis of various tests, the Aircraft Lab noted in Feb 1958 that the Avrocar probably would not be capable of supersonic flight. A few months later, Aircraft lab statements [said] that the concept was feasible, but that much work had to be done before it would ever be operational =96 serious mechanical problems, engine problems, aerodynamic problems, and flight factors unknown." However, there is intriguing evidence that has led some commentators to suggest that the Avrocar was nothing more than an ingenuously crafted cover for far more classified US programs designed to build and =96 possibly - fly UFO-like aircraft. In other words, the Avrocar project was a planned failure from the very beginning, designed to create the impression with the Soviets that the US military had failed to successfully develop and put into service such a particularly unique aircraft. But can such claims be validated? Yes: to a degree, at least. =46rom 1952 to 1961, a Special Projects Group from Avro worked on a series of Flying Saucer programs that were miles ahead of the Avrocar. One such project, known as Y2, was purchased by the US Air Force and renamed Project Silver Bug. A technical report on Silverbug prepared on 15 February 1955 by the Air Technical Intelligence Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, reveals the extent to which potentially groundbreaking research was being undertaken at the time. The report clearly spells out its purpose: "This report presents factual technical data on A. V. Roe, Canada, Limited, proposed development, Project Y2 (Secret). This proposal is the second of two designs which can be classified as radical aircraft designs. The ultimate purpose of presenting this is two-fold; to correct the distorted picture presented in previous releases, both classified and unclassified, and to acquaint the intelligence community with the current state-of- the-art facts thereby alerting them to any air intelligence information which may become available indicating Soviet interest in this specialized field." Interestingly, there was a strong desire on the part of those involved in the project to disassociate themselves with the inevitable flying saucer comparisons, as the document demonstrates clearly: "[The design] should in no way be associated with any science fiction for Flying Saucer stories because of its external appearance. The configuration was a result of an engineering investigation into the solution of a particular problem. An examination of the AVRO proposal shows that the potential for a very high performance weapon system exists in the not-to-distant future. Although this proposal offers the USAF a potentially advanced weapon system having both vertical take-off and military performance capabilities, there are numerous technical problems which must be solved before a successful development can be realized. The proposal is for the design of a supersonic research aircraft having a circular planform and VTO characteristics. One version provides for the use of several conventional radial-flow type engines. Another unusual feature of this proposal is that the control of the aircraft is accomplished by selective direction of the exhaust gases which eliminates the necessity of conventional aerodynamic control surfaces." The extract of the document that follows reveals why the Air Force felt that the construction of such a device would be of great benefit to the US military: "This proposal offers a possible solution to the USAF requirement for achieving dispersed base operations. There appears to be no fundamental reason why this proposal should not ultimately result in a weapon system; however there are several technical areas which must be investigated before a full-scale development program is initiated. The simplicity of airframe construction should alleviate many of the manufacturing and logistic problems normally associated with new aircraft developments. Based on the above conclusions, a two-fold intelligence program is justifiable. A: The technical information on this project should be followed by direct liaison between WADC and ATIC personnel. B: A collection effort should be initiated to determine whether the Soviet Bloc is or has been conducting research efforts on a similar project, when this work began, and the present state of the Soviet development." The document continues: "There is a USAF requirement to develop a means of operation from dispersed bases. This requirement stems from the growing and possibly catastrophic vulnerability of conventional air bases. The major feature of conventional air bases is the runway, which has grown wider, thicker, and longer as aircraft have become heavier and faster. The operational necessity of runways leads to concentrations of aircraft which have become critical targets. The logical approach to dispersed base operation would appear to be toward reducing the length of runways or to their total elimination. Numerous schemes have been proposed, investigated, and some developed to reduce the take-off distance of aircraft. Among them are water ejection, afterburning, and RATO. Drag chutes and methods of thrust reversal have been developed for reducing landing requirements. Attempts to eliminate runways completely have resulted in helicopters, convertiplanes and what is known as VTO aircraft. There are two general types of VTO aircraft - tail sitters and flat risers. A flat-riser takes off in the vertical direction in a normal horizontal flight attitude, while the tail-sitter takes of vertically from a position which is 90 degrees to a normal horizontal flight attitude. Examples of tail-sitters are the United States Navy projects with Lockheed and Convair which utilize a turboprop power plant, and the USAF project with Ryan Aeronautical Corporation utilizing turbojet power plants. Examples of the flat-riser are the Rolls-Royce Flying Bedstead and the Bell VTO aircraft. The basic design problem associated with any aircraft of this type becomes one of achieving in a single vehicle VTO and military performance capabilities. A possible solution to this problem has been proposed by A. V. Roe, Canada, Limited, in the form of their Project Y2 (Secret)." There were, the authors of the document stated, two versions of small research VTO aircraft, that had been designed by the contractor, and that were designated as Project Y, a tail- sitter; and Project Y2, a flat-riser. Early in the study, Project Y had been rejected by the contractor in favor of the flat-riser =96 largely due to the fact that the Project Y2 design incorporated various advances brought about by the utilization of a number of "radical ideas in fundamental areas=85" that had not been then "thoroughly investigated." A great deal of research was undertaken with regard to the craft=92s power-source and cockpit: "The engine is designed to fly edge on to the wind instead of axially as is present practice ion conventional aircraft design. An alternate version for a multi-engine aircraft would avoid concurrent development of the airframe and engine while providing the other essential characteristics of the vehicle. The cockpit is located at the center of the aircraft with the orientation of the cockpit determining the fore and after center-line of the aircraft as well as the normal direction of forward flight. The airframe, fuel cells, and the gas turbine power plant encircle the cockpit." Notably, the take-off and landing ability of the aircraft closely matched the characteristics that numerous witnesses to flying saucers have reported for decades: "This aircraft is designed for vertical take-off and landings while in the horizontal flight attitude, i.e., a flat-riser. Since this aircraft rises vertically from a horizontal position, it does not require a landing gear or auxiliary landing devices. The flat-riser flight take-off technique, the elimination of the landing gear and auxiliary landing devices, are brought about by the peripheral exhaust which produces a powerful ground cushion effect. This is one of the fundamentals on which this new radical aircraft design is based. Since this airframe and engine will have a circular planform, the outer perimeter of the aircraft will be the exhaust of the engine and the thrust forces will be used for control of the aircraft. A unified control system must be designed which will produce the same aircraft responses irrespective of whether the aircraft is in hovering, transition, or forward flight. The circular planform may be modified to accommodate trim flaps of some nature if they are found to be necessary. The air intakes are placed in the inner circle on the upper surface of the aircraft for vertical take- off while additional air intakes are installed in the upper and lower forward facing surfaces for forward flight." The document makes it abundantly clear that a wealth of research had been undertaken into this particular project: "The center location of the fuel cells allows for the use of the fuel as a coolant medium against aerodynamic heating for the cockpit. The mechanical engineering details should not present any unsolvable problems in the airframe design; however, the rotor assembly and exhaust control systems are considered major problems. The basic structural ribs of the airframe lend themselves readily to mass production since they are identical. Sixty ribs are proposed as the foundation of the airframe. These ribs "butted" to the outer surface of the fuel cells with the inner side of the fuel cells comprising the cockpit opening. For the multi-engine version certain engineering problems may arise due to the complexity of controlling eight engines, eight fuel systems, eight lubricating systems, etc. "The aircraft, at rest, cannot use the bottom forward facing air intake; therefore, take-off air is supplied through 30 square feet of door area in the top intake. This air is exhausted through exhaust nozzle (outer perimeter) of the aircraft and is directed downward. This downward ejection of the air produces a ground cushion effect, which results in an additional thrust component for take-off and allows for a ground cushion to break the landing of the aircraft. The effect is present only when he exhaust air is distributed from the periphery of the aircraft (flat-risers). In forward flight, the air enters the plenum chamber through the forward facing air intakes in both the upper and lower surfaces of the aircraft. Engine exhaust gasses are carried around the exhauster duct and are expelled through the annular nozzle which is located on the upper and lower surfaces near the periphery, and through the backward facing nozzles which are located on both sides of the aircraft. "The proposed power plant for the single-engine research vehicle would essentially be a double-sided radial-flow turbojet engine. At the heart of it would be a very large diameter rotor disc that would utilize compressor air bleed as its only means of lubrication. The compressor stators, diffuser, combustion tubes, and turbine nozzle guide vanes are designed as an integral part of the airframe. The rotating element of the conventional gas turbine engine, namely, the compressor rotor, connecting shaft and turbine wheel have been rearranged to a disc configuration. The compressor rotor blades are mounted vertically on the inner disc ring; the turbine wheel blades are mounted vertically on the outer disc ring, and the connecting disc ring is comparable to the conventional connecting shaft. This disc rotates on a double-sided air bearing mounted between the upper and lower combustion tubes. The combustion system consists of flame tubes distributed between the structural ribs of the aircraft. The engine pressure is contained between the outer skin and the rotor bearing plates with the latter structure being mounted between the combustion tubes. For take-off the intake air is brought through the top intakes to the first stage of the rotor and is compressed radially outwards through six stages giving a normal pressure ratio of 3 to 1 from the last compressor stage, the air is diffused and passes through the flame tubes, turbine inlet guide vanes, through the turbine wheel, and then through the exhaust nozzle which is the outer perimeter of the aircraft. During forward flight, the upper air intake ducts are closed and the forward facing air intakes are open. Due to the radial flow through the engine, the compressor blades and turbine blades are straight. Therefore, these parts may be more easily manufactured than for the conventional engine compressors and turbines. The proposed air bearing supporting the rotating element eliminates many of the problems which are imposed by mechanical type bearings. The large area if the bearing surface, approximately 100 square feet on both sides, is available to support the weight of the very large turbine rotor. The air supply for the flat bearing comes from secondary air in the combustion region while the supply for the vertical bearing comes from the rear of the last rotor stage of the compressor. Exhaust of the bearing air is controlled by a low-pressure annulus and the main exhauster which utilized this air for cooling the turbine blade roots. A ground supply of compressed air applied to the air bearing will be used when starting the engine. In stopping the engine, the rotor will ground on self-lubricating bearing pads. The material used in the on self-lubricating bearing pads will be cast iron or carbon which will provide good dry bearing surfaces on steel. These pads are not expected to suffer excessive wear or provide undue stopping torque on the turbine rotor. The multi-engine version would utilize numerous small engines having low specific weights to provide the exhaust gases." Certainly, the most challenging aspect of the aircraft=92s design involved its control-systems: "The aircraft is controlled by regulating shutters which vary the amount of thrust through the annular nozzles (for pitch and roll control) and through the backward facing nozzles for yaw control located on the peripheral edge. The contractor claims that the use of this "jet control" at all times eliminates the difficulty associated with hinged control surfaces in supersonic flight. This statement on the part of the contractor is based on initial testing of the principle and much more data must be assembled before it can be completely accepted. A proposed method of achieving jet control utilizes the so-called "Coanda effect" whereby a jet stream is deflected through large angles by having a curved surface in contact with its edge at one side. Additional investigation into the mechanism required to utilize this effect must be accomplished in the early phases of this development. In the proposed aircraft thrust forces are used for control at all times. It is mandatory to use the thrust force for take-off and hovering flight since there are no aerodynamic forces available due to the lack of forward movement. In forward supersonic flight thrust forces are used in lieu of conventional hinged-type controls. The performance estimated by the contractor was based on rather broad assumptions and has not as yet investigated by a wind tunnel test program. NOTE: The above estimate utilizes net thrusts and SFC which are based on the simplifying assumption - Plain nozzles and 100 per cent thrust recovery from the jet bending." To what extent post-Silverbug projects and possible spin-offs made it off the drawing board and were put into actual operation are issues that are both debatable and controversial. However, the next time you see something strange in the sky, consider that its point of origin may be closer to home than you think=85
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 UFO In Leith Walk? Someone Must Be Clowning Around From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:27:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:27:12 -0400 Subject: UFO In Leith Walk? Someone Must Be Clowning Around Source: The Evening News - Edinburgh, Scotland http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=3D625582005 Tue 7 Jun 2005 A UFO In Leith Walk? Someone Must Be Clowning Around... Brian Ferguson City Council Reporter A BIG top shaped like a flying saucer is to materialise in Leith Walk for this year=92s Edinburgh Festival Fringe, it emerged today. The 11-metre tall silver structure, which boasts pink walls and blue lighting effects, is expected to stun onlookers when it descends on a former tram and bus depot this August. A spectacular circus troupe from Wales, who travel the country with the venue, will be coming to Edinburgh to perform in the dramatic tent, which will be erected at Shrub Place next to the city council=92s social work headquarters. The tent is being brought to the city by Out Of The Blue (OOTB), the acclaimed arts organisation which has taken over the nearby former drill hall at Dalmeny Street. It emerged earlier this year that the Victorian building is to play host to a major Edinburgh International Festival production, NutsCoconuts, a hit show from Spain which is being tipped to be one of the hottest tickets in the city this August. OOTB, which is also behind the long-running Bongo Club venue in the city centre, has also lined up a leading physical theatre group from India to perform in the big top, which has also been compared to a giant jellyfish. Spokeswoman Dana Macleod said: "Our exciting new venture is going to transform the former tram and bus depot on Leith Shrub Place into a cutting-edge venue for this year=92s Fringe. "Its giant saucer-style design, pink walls and blue lighting effects will transform Leith Walk into a sci-fi spectacular and ensure its status as a Festival hotspot this year." The venue - known simply as The Space Ship - will be heading to Edinburgh with the No Fit State Circus, via major festivals in Bradford, Bath and Cambridge, as well as a string of leading events in Wales. Marketing manager Stephan Stockton said: "Although our circus company has been to the Fringe before this is the first time The Space Ship has been anywhere in Scotland and we=92re really excited about it. "It creates a stir everywhere it goes, especially if it=92s anywhere near a residential area or a lot of traffic, and we=92ve had people phoning the police after seeing it to report a UFO landing. "It=92s not a conventional circus tent as the audience aren=92t seated and they actually get to follow the action around as it happens." The site where The Space Ship is due to land in August has been lying vacant for more than five years but is due to be transformed into a =A335 million development featuring more than 300 homes, two public squares, a row of shops and new offices. BL Developments - the company behind the scheme - is also in talks with the council to buy the site of Shrubhill House, its social work department building, so it can be incorporated into the project. Phil Myerscough, director of BL, said: "We were introduced to Out Of The Blue by the local residents=92 association, and were very excited by this proposal for the site. It=92s right on the main road, so it should make quite an impact, and it=92ll certainly breathe life into what has been a real eyesore for local people for some time." OOTB will be running a full Fringe programme at the Bongo Club,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 X Marks The Spot From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:36:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:36:14 -0400 Subject: X Marks The Spot Source: Long Beach Press-Telegram - Long Beach, California http://u.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,218~34073~2906978,00.html Monday, June 06, 2005 X Marks The Spot As four-DVD set brings the 'Files Mythology' back into focus, Chris Carter talks about the creation of his TV hit By Phillip Zonkel Staff Writer CHRIS CARTER - wasn't abducted by aliens and didn't have any close encounters of the third kind. His inspiration in the early 1990s for the hit TV series "The X-Files' seems to have come through an open door. "I was in my surf trunks, bare feet and a T-shirt," says Carter, who was working from home at the time. "It was August, sunny and hot. The door was open. "The idea just came to me, and I don't know how. I was conscious of a lack of anything truly scary on TV," says the 48-year-old Bellflower native, who says the spooky 1974 TV series "Kolchak: The Night Stalker," starring Darren McGavin, and the 1976 film "All The President's Men" were big influences on "The X-Files." "I was conscious that people are afraid of science and technology (and government intrigue), as much as they want it. Otherwise though, the idea just came." And then the stories came. Over the course of nine seasons, "The X-Files," which went off the air in 2002, followed special agents Fox Mulder (David Duchovny) and Dana Scully (Gillian Anderson) as they investigated unsolved and often unexplainable cases the FBI labeled X-Files, everything from a fluke-man (half-man, half-flukeworm), a man whose shadow disintegrates people and a family with roots stretching back to the Civil War that has survived by inbreeding. But the heart of the show was the ongoing story arc of the mythology, a complex web of alien conspiracies and government coverups that has been hidden for more than half a century. "The X-Files Mythology: Abduction," a four-DVD set with 15 chronological episodes from the first three seasons, arrives in stores today. Ever since he witnessed his sister's abduction, Mulder has believed in extraterrestrials. His obsession with finding his sister grows as he examines the X-Files. As his search continues, Mulder uncovers a series of interwoven events related to his sister's disappearance. Agent Scully is assigned to work with Mulder in an attempt to discredit his beliefs in the paranormal and supernatural with her scientific explanations. As the partnership continues, their opposing philosophies become the norm =97 Mulder "the believer' and Scully "the skeptic." Here, Carter tells us the stories behind some of the mythology episodes just released on DVD: Pilot, "Deep Throat' and "Fallen Angel' "In those first three episodes, it seemed as if we were producing a show that was going to be about aliens and UFOs," Carter says. "What we were ultimately doing was setting up the mythology that would become the spine of the series. It became more than just a show about aliens and alien abduction, even though that was the hook." "If you look at the first and second episode, you see the mythology carefully laid out and Mulder's search for his sister," Carter says. "The mythology episodes became some of the most popular throughout the life of the series." "Duane Berry' and "Ascension' Mulder is assigned to a hostage negotiation where the deranged hostage taker, ex-FBI agent Duane Berry, claims to have been abducted and tortured by aliens. Originally, the episode was not two parts. It was expanded because of the story's complexity and Gillian Anderson's pregnancy. Since Anderson would be on maternity leave from the series for a short time, Scully is kidnapped by Berry at the episode's climax. During the second part, "Ascension," Berry takes Scully to a predetermined location where he plans to rendezvous with an alien spacecraft. Berry hands over Scully, who is abducted. "The 'Duane Berry" story was inspired by a piece I'd read in the New York Times about Phineas Gage," Carter says. In 1848 Gage, who was the foreman of a railway construction team, had been injured in an accidental explosion that blew a tampering iron through his head. It went in point first under his left cheek bone and out the top of his skull. Part of his frontal lobe, which plays a role in social behavior, was destroyed. Before the accident, Gage was regarded as a well- balanced man. But when he returned to work the following year, his personality, according to his co-workers, had changed for the negative as a result of the accident. "I wanted to create a character just like (Gage), but who believed he was abducted by aliens," Carter says. "The audience didn't know if he was crazy as a result of an accident or was he really abducted by aliens. It really plays into the characters of Mulder and Scully. Mulder believes he was abducted and Scully believes he's the victim of his accident." "One Breath' After being kidnapped by Duane Berry, Scully mysteriously shows up at a hospital in a coma. When Mulder learns that her DNA exhibits signs of genetic tampering, he is convinced the government is responsible for her condition and demands to know the identity of the Cigarette Smoking Man, a dastardly character who first appeared in the pilot episode and works as part of a shadow syndicate with members in the highest levels of government. Carter named this nefarious character for his habit of lighting up. "It's a bad habit," Carter says. "He smoked in places where he shouldn" t, like offices and the FBI and hospitals. He didn't care, just like smokers. They don't care." Until this episode, Cigarette Smoking Man (William B. Davis) never spoke, but his confrontation with Mulder ("Don't try and threaten me, Mulder. I've watched presidents die.") convinced Carter that Cigarette Smoking Man's icy eloquence made him more evil. "I always thought he was valuable saying nothing, but all of a sudden when he spoke, he was good at it," Carter says. Davis also was a champion water-skier in Canada, which Carter wanted to exploit. "I always wanted to get him water-skiing, but Frank Spotnitz (Carter's partner in writing the mythology episodes) would never let me do it," Carter says. "He thought it would make the character look silly, but I thought it would be the coolest thing." "Endgame' 'Endgame" was an important episode to the series because that's when Frank Spotnitz comes on to the show," Carter says. "He and I ended up writing the rest of the mythology. He became my partner in the mythology." In this second episode of two parts, the alien bounty hunter kidnaps Scully and agrees to trade her for Mulder's sister, who is revealed to be a clone. After the trade goes sour and Mulder discovers the truth about Samantha, he tracks the bounty hunter to his ship buried in the arctic ice and demands the whereabouts of his real sister. To re-create the North Pole location, tons of real snow was dumped on a mammoth soundstage. Above the snow, the crew made a life-size replica of the bounty hunter's ship. "It was so audacious to build a submarine on a set like that and truck in snow. It was incredible," Carter says. "I didn't think we could do it on a schedule and a budget of a TV show." That submarine also is the site where Mulder begs the alien bounty hunter to confirm that Samantha is alive. When the bounty hunter assures him, albeit cryptically, that she is in fact alive, Mulder's quest to find her gains new resolve. "That was the secret to all those mythology episodes," Carter says, "Mulder kept getting closer and closer." "Anasazi' Mulder obtains a digital tape that appears to have the original and uncut top secret intelligence documents about the government extraterrestrial life. Scully figures out that the files have been encrypted in Navajo. The episode begins with the tagline "El " Aaniigoo 'Ahoot'e," the Navajo equivalent for "The Truth is Out There," the signature phrase that opens each episode. The story line also touches on the history of the Navajo code talkers, a group of Marines in World War II who devised a cryptogram based on the Navajo language that was used during battles in the Pacific. Carter says his idea for the code talkers was inspired during a 1992 cross-county trip. "Basically, I took the idea from the wall of a McDonald" s," he says, laughing. "I was driving somewhere on Highway 40 going from Santa Barbara cross-country, and I went to a McDonald" s. They had this thing up (on the wall) about the code talkers. I thought that was the coolest thing." Phillip Zonkel can be reached at (562) 499-1258 or by e-mail atphillip.zonkel.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Grass Fungus Once Called 'fairy Rings' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:41:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:41:41 -0400 Subject: Grass Fungus Once Called 'fairy Rings' Source: Hood County News - Granbury, Texas http://tinyurl.com/8ez8k Monday, June 06, 2005 Grass Fungus Once Called 'fairy Rings' by Pete Kendall Remember the UFO - the unidentified fungal oddity discovered by Temple Hall Highway property owner Bruce Lustenhouwer? The particles were arranged in a circle, 16 feet across, and colored black, brown and gray. They didn't resemble anything Lustenhouwer had ever seen before. "It's a powdery substance in the grass," he said. "It doesn't appear to be killing the grass. The grass growing through it looks healthy. It's not attacking any one kind of grass. It's on different grasses." He had considered another alternative. "It could be some of those little bitty people operating a nuclear collider under the ground," he offered, grinning. Not likely, he said. "I don't know that I buy the UFO explanation." Neither does Hood County News reader Bob Thomas, whose terse e- mail to us read: "This was covered on Walter Reeve's radio call- in show in Atlanta last week. The circles are caused by a fungus. Check out the link. Scroll down for an identical picture to that appearing with your article." According to the Web site forteantimes.com, Lustenhouwer's artistic growth is known as a "fairy ring." "Long before crop circles caught the headlines, there were fairy rings," the Web site states. "Fairy rings are, and always have been, a lot more common than today's more famous crop circles, but originally their origins were as mysterious and ascribed to similar causes. "Usually, a fairy ring is visible as a noticeable circle appearing in grass. Some rings are formed by a luxuriant growth, taller and of a darker green than the grass at their center. "Others seem to be the opposite: a patch of poorly growing grass or even bare earth in a circular pattern. When both types combine, the luxuriant growth has an area of bound ground as an inner circle. We now know that fairy rings are actually produced by fungi, but this was not always the case. "As the common name for the phenomenon implies, they were widely explained as the result of a gathering of fairies that ended with a circular dance. Such was the energy used in the dancing that the ground was permanently marked." Folklore has it that entering a fairy ring can be hazardous to your health. "Fairylore," the Web site continues, "is full of stories of careless trespassers whisked off to fairyland, returning the following day to find some 20 years have elapsed, or forced to dance in the circular revel until some faithful friend comes to the rescue." Some landowners "regard the presence of a fairy ring on their property as a sign of good luck," according to the Web site, "or as a marker of treasure, treasure which can only be found with the help of witches or fairies." Which still doesn't explain the cause and effect of the fungi. "As a general rule," the Web site goes on, "fairy rings are harmless. In fact, some but not all of the species that produce them are fine edibles. The worst problem they cause is what some regard as an unsightly blemish on a lawn. "All fairy rings are produced in the same manner. Initially a spore (the fungal equivalent of a seed) lands on some suitable ground. This spore then starts to grow underground, pushing out a white mass of mycelium in all directions. "Fungi release digestive chemicals into the ground to break down their food, which they then suck up. Unfortunately, they are sloppy eaters and not all this digested food is taken up." Bon apetit!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:42:15 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:47:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Gevaerd >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage people to >take the time to study the videos carefully. <snip> >http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni.html Thanks for that, John. People should really see for themselves what=B4s going on in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:46:09 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:49:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Gevaerd >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:57:50 -0400 >Subject: UN Petition Signature Update >An update to let everyone know where we're at in terms of >signature collection for the UN Petition. The count currently >stands at: 5835. >Please, I encourage all of you to go the petition website, read >it, and if you agree with the content, sign it. Then, tell as >many others as you can to do likewise. >With the recent release of information from Brazil the time may >be ripening for submitting the petition to the Secretary General >of the UN. Hopefully other countries will follow the lead of >countries like Belgium, Mexico, Brazil and others. In time, we >may finally know the truth behind the UFO presence and the >interference of the UFO occupants into lives of literally >thousands of human beings. >After hearing the harrowing details of the UFO landing in Brazil >where the craft fired 'beams' at people and even injured a few, >I think it's time to get off your duff and get involved in >seeking the truth from our governments and militaries. When a >report such as this is added to the reports of the abductees, >the chances for these visitors being benign begin to diminish >rapidly. I have been saying all along that there is an 'urgency' >to all this that even many who are involved in ufology on a >daily basis fail to fully appreciate. >Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition John: Maybe there is something that we can do to help your campaign. We have reached over 60,000 signatures in our movement, UFOs: Freedom of Information Now, here in Brazil, that has already shown results in asking our Government to open its secret files. I am absolutely convinced that 99% of the people who signed our petition would sign UN's as well, IF we have material in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:50:15 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:52:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:58:37 -0500 >Subject: Re: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <gevaerd.nul> >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:10:41 -0300 >>Subject: Brazilian Air Force Video Of Historic Meeting Online >>Brazilian Air Force presents a video about the meeting with UFO >>researchers at its website >>There is no record of such a thing in the UFO literature, >>ever. >This is certainly an encouraging development. I was wondering if >the subject of the alleged capture of "creatures" at Varginha >by the Brazilian military has been raised. If that event >actually happened, I wonder how forthcoming the Brazilian >government would be about something so potentially explosive. Lan, the Varginha Case was an Army operation, which is much more closed than the Air Force. We are moving towards it as well, but the procedures have to be different, slow and cautious. Besides, the Varginha Case is one of the most secret items in the entire military circle down here. To be frank, I doubt that the Army would release any info about
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 UFO Imagery Discussion [was: National Or Cultural From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:28:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:00:15 -0400 Subject: UFO Imagery Discussion [was: National Or Cultural >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:59:22 -0300 >Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:31:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research <snip> >I have to ask this question, Amy. Other than the first picture >on that page [obviously a bird] how do you know for certain >these were birds? Were the wings evident with the naked eye but >the subsequent video did not indicate wings. I also had binoculars. That's why they are called IFO's, I identify them _before_ I video tape or photograph them. >I don't own a video camera [I used to borrow from work] but do >have both digital and film cameras. I've shot many photos from >the air but little from the ground of the sky except for >airshows. >I should ask as well whether you used digital zoom or optical >zoom to photograph these objects. When I made these video stills, my old Sony camcorder only had optical zoom. >Digital zoom should be outlawed. I agree. People use it all the time to make UFOs out of distorted images they happened to get by using too much digital zoom. >This question needs to be answered in the Mexican footage as >well as what formats were used to record the images. I agree wholeheartedly. >>Although birds, free-floating balloons, debris and even >>airplanes can appear as round, "glowing" balls when video taped >>flying high in the sky or from far away, >The problem there is when you zoom in, particularly digitally, >you overload/overexpose the pixels [CCDs] with light and the >pixel becomes the shape rather than the object. Over enlargement >tends to flatten the image as well due to the shape of the CCD, >which if memory serves is roughly the same ratio as the actual >picture ratio. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Excessive digital zoom can cause all kinds of anomalous images. >Additionally you have these photos enlarged 250 times thruogh a >computer program which intoduces it's own "noise" to the photos. The photographs of cotton seeds in the air were taken with a digital camera (DP=Digital Photograph) but the camera I used only had a 3X zoom and I didn't know how to use it as I had just purchased it (it was my first digital camera, only took photographs, no video). Only two of the photographs on the Debris, Page 1 were enlarged by computer, the rest were taken without any zoom whatsoever. A neighbor who went around photographing everything that moved in the sky calling them UFOs had called me and told me to run outside and photograph all the UFOs floating down from the sky. I simply took my camera, stepped out onto my patio, aimed the camera up and took the pictures (also have 35 mm photographs with a regular lens that look the same). Just so happens the Cotton Wood trees were everywhere and in full "bloom" over the entire area. (The new IFO Database will have many new and clearer images but I still don't use digital zoom, only optical zoom.) >Buy taking a zoomed in photo and magnifying it you effectively >blow up the pixels and rather than enlarging the original you >bubble up the thre or 5 pixels of the distant object to the >point where it colud look like anything. they do not remain >static as we have seen in some of the video footage coming out >of Mexico. Don, you only assumed I took a zoomed-in photo, I did not use any zoom. Those cotton wood seeds were everywhere and big (everything is big in Texas ;>). Every day I had to wash the outside unit to my air conditioner as that stuff covered it to the point it turned white. That's why the original photographs are shown with the two enlarged photo's - for comparison purposes (that neighbor was posting similar enlarged images all over the internet as UFOs and I was trying to demonstrate what they really were). This is the actual way these objects appeared in photographs without any zoom applied. Also note the edge of the roof in the photographs is quite clear with no blurring or "fuzzies" (for a cheap digital camera with low mps, I now have much better equipment). >The Mexican photos that I've seen do not appear to show the >forced focusing usually associated with videos of aerial >objects. Even at a distance they appear to be solid , round orbs >not fuzzy. This is why it is so important to go out and photograph/video tape objects like birds, bugs, debris, conventional aircraft, balloons, etc. over and over to see how different these objects can appear in photographs and on video tape from what is seen with the naked eye. I've been encouraging people to do this for years but few bother to do these tests for their own information. Once you study how IFO's can appear as all kinds of UFOs in photographs and on video tape, you become better able to recognize the characteristics that help reveal the true identities of each image. When you refer to the "Mexican photos", I really don't know which ones you mean as there are so many. We have got to find a way to classify each photograph and video clip separately as the situation is becoming almost as fuzzy as the digital zoom we both detest. ;> I'm trying to get those presenting these photographs and videos to add clear titles and information so those of us trying to evaluate can communicate more efficiently with each other. In addition to my other research projects and the IFO Database, when I have time, I study hoaxes and how they were created. You'd be surprised just how many ways video footage and photographs can be hoaxed and illusions created. I've learned to not only see in multiple layers but also shift visual and mental perspectives from one layer to another. If you look at an image in only one or two ways and according to what you _think_ is in the image, that is all you will see. But if you ask yourself, "If I wanted to create this illusion, how might I go about it?", the images can begin to shift and you will see things you didn't see before. This is, by far, the most fascinating process. It reminds me of when you look at one of those optical illusions and only see it one way then shift your focus and the image changes right before your eyes! Not to say any of the Mexican videos or photographs are hoaxes, nor should we assume they are all either birds or balloons. We
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:02:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:18:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Velez >From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:38:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >>>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>Hello All, >>>I have posted several pages that I hope will encourage people to >>>take the time to study the videos carefully. I have selected >>>clips that show the objects that were recorded maintaining a >>>static 'formation' and distance from one another in the sky. >>>This kind of aerial performance requires control - ask any >>>pilot. >Hi, Nick, >>John Velez has done a wonderful job in creating a web site so >>that everyone will now have the opportunity to view a selection >>of video clips with images that certainly do look like fleets of >>UFOs in the skies over Mexico. >I agree. >>I photographed one such "UFO fleet" that exhibited exactly such >>flight characteristics on Labour Day weekend, 1998. In fact, I >>was a passenger in one of these "UFOs" when I took the pictures! >>The large silent UFO I was onboard was a large spherical hot air >>balloon, one of over 100 which were part of the annual Gatineau >>Hot Air Balloon Festival that peppered the blue sky east of >>Ottawa - just like the UFO fleets in some of the Mexican videos. Hello Bill, All, Bill responded: >I guess what would help me make up my mind about the OVNI >footage is not someone saying these are balloons or birds - but >seeing footage of balloons or birds that resemble the OVNI >clips. I haven't seen anything thus far in Amy's posting that >even comes close. I've seen stills of birds that look exactly >like birds, and stills of glass beads and balloons that look >exactly like glass beads and balloons. C'mon - none of us are >idiots, and I'd bet a buck the first thought for all of us >looking at this footage is that they are either birds or >balloons - and they may be. But this OVNI footage also looks >unique to me. I know I've never seen anything like it. If you >have a video clip or two or stills that look even remotely >similar, why don't you post them? It's simple, Bill... they can't. Amy can't, Nick can't, and Smith can't. For all their bleating about birds and balloons, none of them can have been able to come up with a single example that even remotely resembles the OVNI footage from Mexico. Amy's birds look like birds because that's what they are. She takes photos of birds into Photoshop (or some such software) and then enlarges them 100xs, artificially blurring the hell out of em. And then she claims that this is what we are seeing in the Mexican videos as if the rest of the world is blind -and stupid!. She treats us and talks to us as if we were idiots. You have to realize that Amy 'plays to the crowd' a lot, Bill. She also works real hard at promoting herself as an "expert" in everything from photo analysis to human psychology. Both of which are subjects she is obviously/patently ignorant of. Don't hold yer breath waiting for Amy or anyone else to show you a video they 'faked' that looks -exactly like- what we're seeing recorded in the video coming out of Mexico. Ain't gonna happen! There is something very unique about the Mexican videos that Amy or Nick or anybody else will _never_ be able to duplicate. Not as long as they are using any species of bird or type of balloon to do it. At some point it all starts to look a little desperate on their part. We all need to be patient and understanding with Amy and Nick and even Mr. Smith. Their level of 'fear' regarding this subject may much greater than for the average person. Apparently, they need to cling to the comfort of their 'familiar' world view even when it doesn't fit the real conditions or circumstances. Why else would they spend so much of the time of their lives trying desperately to convince everyone that they are seeing something that is not there. ie 'birds.' Here's a little "real" psychology for ya! The reality of UFOs, I mean actually seeing one up close, shatters your world view into a million tiny pieces. The world you thought you knew is gone in an instant. It is never the same afterwards. The UFO encounter becomes a demarcation, a dividing point in the person's life. There is the 'you' _before_ you saw the UFO and then there is the 'you' after you saw the UFO. The 'you' after you saw the UFO sees the world much differently than the the 'you' before the encounter. In short, it is a life-altering experience. Nick and Amy are smart enough to know this. More, they are both smart enough to see the writing on the walls. They fight like hell to keep their 'old world view' alive. They know what's coming. The 'reality' of UFOs threatens to bring down the framework of all that they think they know. That's an intimidating prospect for anyone. More so than most, people like Nick and Amy not only fear losing their 'comfortable' (familiar) world view, they can see the changes coming. They, along with many others, fear to loose their white-knuckled grip on a reality - which doesn't even exist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:53:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:20:37 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:30:09 +0000 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >Bob, >Then it's up to you and other advocates to define precisely what >you mean by 'demonology' and 'demons.' What is it, to your way >of thinking, that makes application of this (presently >undefined) concept applicable to UFOs? Why is it even >appropriate to use what, in effect, is a term that carries such >religious baggage when other terms and concepts are available? >Is it, in your mind, somehow explanatory, merely descriptive, or >what? I have no problem in considering possible other- >dimensional origins, but 'demon' is a word with very strong >connotations and its use must be justified one way or the other. >BTW: I have a B.A. degree in Philosophy from Tulane University, >and I am attuned to language use and semantics. In one of my >early writings on UFOs I used the example of an American yokel >who was told by a German that a certain four-legged equine >animal was a 'Pferd.' He said, 'Well, you may call it a Pferd, >but it sure looks like a horse to me.' Richard, What I am saying is that we should not automatically discount strange accounts just because the person making the report couches the events in religious rather than scientific terms. Many of these accounts predate science as we know it today. A good example is the "fairy rings" also discussed here recently. Just because the folks who encountered these rings in earlier times described them in mythological terms doesn't mean the rings didn't exist, nor that they were not subject to later scientific study. Encounters with alien beings would always be interpreted within the framework of understanding of the person experiencing the encounter. A good example is Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church. He interpreted the beings he encountered as angels, and couched his explanation and exposition in religious terms. What I am saying is that we must not discount encounters with beings outside our normal sphere of experience just because the person describing the encounter puts the experience into a religious framework. I am not saying that I think the religious interpretation of demons is an accurate reflection of reality. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 8 Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:06:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:22:22 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Shell From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> To: <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >I wouldn't dignify Sanderson's batty notion in that book, which >reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his >cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything >so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line >in that crank classic. Jerry, I resent your characterization of my friend Ivan as a "crank" and your suggestion that he abused alcohol. Ivan was a trained and serious zoologist, and a very sober and dedicated observer. Ivan had spent many years in the tropics living and interacting with the native people, and this had made him far more open- minded than most scientists. That was a trait that I valued highly, but which science still has not embraced. >He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and quite mad." >When I quoted that line once to a prominent Fortean friend, he >cracked that this was a pretty good description of Sanderson, too. Did your "prominent Fortean friend" know Ivan? A good example of the scientist confronted with a Fortean event is a story Ivan used to tell. He was in Sumatra, as I recall, staying in a house in the rain forest. After dark one evening pebbles were thrown against the side of the house. Everyone's first thought was that some prankster was hiding in the bush and throwing the pebbles. After several such salvos, Ivan borrowed some nail polish from his wife and marked a batch of the pebbles and threw them back into the jungle. A few seconds later another salvo of pebbles hit the side of the house. When they were picked up, every one of the marked pebbles was among them! Could a prankster have found every single pebble at night in the jungle? This experiment did not give answers about what was really happening, but it was a scientific approach to a truly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:29:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:47:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 05:50:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:38:40 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >From the previous post: >UFOs are not birds except to those who see UFOs in every flying >object they observe in the sky. >Shall we coninue... I don't believe I've ever read anything more obtuse from someone who was at least able, it seems, to fake a convincing gentility. I suspect we've seen a shade snap up here and caught a glimpse of some dowdily overcautious mal-intellectual housekeeping. >>I haven't seen anything thus far in Amy's posting that >>even comes close. >Hold on, Sweetheart, I'm just getting started! ;> Hold on yourself, honeybumps...(...grave for the goose and gander, ma'am!) ...so's your well provoked opposition... >Thought I'd start with what's available on the internet then >work into the rest as I get it uploaded to my new web site >(which I'm having to set up as it wasn't scheduled to open for >another month). I've seen a lot of what you've produced, and even if I were a fence-sitter - which, admittedly, experience and conscience won't let me be - I'd have to opine that you very clearly cherry-picked your images to prove your contention, and so provided ample illustration that where Mr. Velez is trying to get to the bottom of something real, you are fanning the bottom to contrive your_un_reality, I feel. Oooops, sorry. Slipped out in verse... must be true... <g> >Why is it alleged videos of UFOs are welcomed with open arms >yet evidence to the contrary is poo-poohed, criticized and >dismissed almost immediately? Ma'am, it has been suggested that you have a history of smirks, sneers, and snickers that I've noticed to a degree myself. With the current influx of neo-klasskurtxians and post-pelicanists or other back-stepping barbarians at a progressive ufology's gates, you've come a little further out of defilade and been more clearly positioned, lately. This is good news for everyone. To task: Alleged videos are hardly welcomed with "open arms", ma'am. Be serious. The detractors of those 'videos' are legion. What you protest is the similar (if braver and more reasonable) questioning of your, so-called, "evidence to the contrary". You protest a rational (decidedly non-rationalizing) turn-about as un-fair play. Gravy, again. >Oh, yeah, it's a _UFO_ List. Of course. That's right... and a reliable Cadillac of the fleet, too, ...or, how many hundreds of posts have you contributed to it, ma'am? Gravy yet again. Be that as it may, Ms. Hebert, there's no call to spot the floormats. But thanks for pealing back a little of the veneer, the board has resolved a tiny little bit more for me. Oh... the discrimination you seem to dismiss... is only your denial, ma'am. We Americans are infused with it by our Mother's milk, an Uncle Sam's abusive dalliance, and the non payment of child support that results. The contrary is ludicrous. We'd do well to just own up to that; we're running out of the luxury of taking our haughty sociopathy for granted.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:29:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:51:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:42:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:49:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:00 -0400 >>>Subject: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>I seem to >>recall someone has actually done some photographic analysis of >>the videos to prove they are not computer generated. Has anyone >>of the research team collected the weather data, radar data in a >>report? >I am not a "research team." But aren't you a researcher and "involved" in this case? If not then I guess that might mean you are just an armchair UFO advocate. >>>Is it only a matter of time before these mass aerial >>>displays begin to fill our skies and the skies >>of every other nation on earth? >>It would be great! Certainly catch everyone's attention! >Easy for you to say. The privacy and sanctity of my home >and my family has been violated. This subject you speak of >in such glib terms may have implications far beyond anything >you could conjure out of your darkest imagination. You have >absolutely no idea what it is you're talking about here. >If the treatment the abductees have received at the hands of >the UFO occupants is any indication of things to come... I am always sensitive when it comes to people's experiences which I have not had. It saddens me to hear of abductee experiences. I agree some sort of phenomena is going on there and would be livid if such was occuring to me. But, I ask that you look at the matter from the practical side for a moment. If these "collections" of UFOs are alien spacecraft or evil high tech humans or demons or whatever, then it is essential that more of these displays occur in as many cities as possible. The reason for this is that it will _force_ the authorities to do something (mainly due to public outcry). They can use their firepower (SDI,etc) to bring 'em down. Hell, you are going to get some rednecks with scope-mounted high powered rifles trying to bring 'em down! If the displays occur in one place and can be discredited for whatever reason or does not cause enough public outcry, then no action will take place by the authorities. This is simliar to the rare disease problem. If less than 1% of the population has a rare disease, then the authorities won't try to find a cure. Are abductions so rare? Maybe. Oddly, we need to either wish for lots more UFO "collection" displays or alot more abductions (repulsive though that is), to get the attention of public and authorities to do something about it. >>That's a splendid idea! Yes, we need to at least get a Ray >>Stanford type >What "type" is that? Idle gossip? Tongue-wag? Wash-woman? >Did he contact you, or have you two been bosom buddies for >awhile? Never mind. It's all rhetorical. You are the limit. Don't put down Mr Stanford, whose shoes you are not worthy to lick. With folk like you on this List, its not surprising that he doesn't come here anymore. I don't have any contact with him. I have read his book on Socorro and read his newsletters on Project Starlight when I was a teenager. Very inspirational and it is very curious how in a country with as many people as the US, we have not gotten more quality field research in UFOs (with multiple instruments, video, cameras, sound, radar). Sure the government may have done it, but this seems possible to do by regular folk. Only Stanford and Rutledge (in the US) have done this level of work. I wish we had more detailed reports of Stanford's results and procedures. >>I doubt there are _any_ simple minded people who read this List >>who "take the word" of so-called arm chair analysts. >Really? Then there mustn't be anyone taking your word for >anything. Duh! Of course, they aren't going to take my word! Who the hell do you think I am? J Allen Hynek? They have their own minds, bub! >>At least they show an interest, most folk stay in >>lurk mode and enjoy the show!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Things Keel-ian - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:53:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Tonnies >From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >To: UFO Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:55:55 -0500 >Subject: Things Keel-ian <snip> >And I see nothing in Science, which precludes the existence of >realms of existence transcendent to, but intersecting with, our >own. In fact, quantum mechanics and chaos theory seem to point >to the inevitability of just that. >Call them demons, ultraterrestrials, or dimesional travelers, we >seem to have just as much hard physical evidence for them as we >do for extraterrestrial visitors. I agree. While I'm sympathetic to the idea of flesh-and-blood aliens visiting from afar, I'm unsure if the extraterrestrial hypothesis (as popularly conceived) is the best explanation for the many encounters with apparent aliens that litter our folklore. John Keel, a controversial proponent of "ultraterrestrial" visitation, thinks our so-called visitors inhabit Earth alongside us, originating from different levels ofa "superspectrum" of consciousness. Keel's many critics within the UFO community equate the concept of meddling ultraterrestrials with medieval demonology; Keel himself has dubbed ufology a "demonology of the 20th century" with no irony intended. Interestingly enough, Jacques Vallee - who by and large enjoys the respect of scientifically inclined UFO researchers - has presented ideas basically similar to Keel's, even if they differ on certain theoretical aspects. Most significantly, both share the conviction that the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) is inadequately strange if it's to account for the spectrum of absurdity reported by close- encounter witnesses throughout historical and contemporary times. In addition, both Keel and Vallee share a pronounced distaste for tales of crashed alien hardware a la Roswell; according to Keel's take, a physical event as pronounced as a crippled UFO is effectively impossible, as his "aliens" are largely immune to dangers posed by the world of gross matter. Some speculators make the mistake of thinking that the revisionist, postmodern cosmology advanced by Vallee and Keel is incompatible with the hallowed ETH. But in truth both models are anything but mutually exclusive. It's even possible to imagine technological aliens from some distant star developing the ability to access Keel's "superspectrum" for reasons we can only guess. Aliens? Demons? Labels are inherently limiting, even deceptive. If we're to make sense of our evident heritage of nonhuman visitation, we must dispense with preconceptions, foremost among them the romantic notion that "aliens" are necessarily advanced beings from space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 UFOs Mythology & Plausible Deniability From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:55:27 -0400 Subject: UFOs Mythology & Plausible Deniability UFOs, Mythology and Plausible Deniability by Mac Tonnies http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com There are two competing theories that propose to account for the close-encounter experience throughout human history. The first holds that nonhuman encounters found in folklore - such as interaction with the "little people" that populate the Celtic fairy faith - are misreadings of encounters with extrasolar aliens. Since the witnesses to fairies and their activities lacked a suitable technological vocabulary, their descriptions were naturally prone to the "supernatural." The second theory maintains that the modern extraterrestrial hypothesis, in which evident nonhuman intelligences originate from other star systems, is at least as fictitious and misleading as the notion that humans share the planet with fairies. According to this view, the core phenomenon adapts to fit the reigning zeitgeist when in truth it is something altogether different - possibly even immune to comprehension. (One wonders what form close encounters will take once we have assumed the role of space travelers we now casually grant to "ufonauts.") In both scenarios, the UFO intelligence retains plausible deniability. Since we necessarily comprehend it in mythological terms, it could vanish and leave our civilization largely unscathed. The contemporary UFO phenomenon has demonstrated that it is capable of assuming a physical form at least partly amenable to empirical investigation. But its liminal nature seems designed to leave room for doubt; lacking conclusive proof of nonhuman visitation, we will always be able to chalk the enigma up to various misidentified natural processes. The phenomenon's raison d'etre seems to be to remain hidden, all the while functioning in an evasive "standby" mode. Although this strange behavior could be explained by a variety of esoteric models, it's equally possible that we are, after all, seeing "nuts and bolts" visitors from elsewhere in the galactic neighborhood. Of course, one could argue that a civilization capable of bridging the distance between stars could remain absolutely and indefinitely hidden, in which case we would have no global tradition - however distorted - of nonhuman contact. So our visitors - if "visitors" is an applicable term - would seem to have an abiding interest in keeping their presence known to us, even if that presence is confined to our mythology. That the UFOs fail to make open contact indicates an equally stubborn need to remain hidden. Indeed, their home turf appears to be the periphery of human consciousness. All of this suggests an agenda. I don't think "they" are patiently waiting for us to make some gesture of ultimate recognition; rather, I propose that the UFO/contact experience - whatever its goal - is well underway. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Abductions & Odd Fashion Accessories - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:47:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:56:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductions & Odd Fashion Accessories - Smith >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:56:28 EDT >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Abductions & Odd Fashion Accessories >So as an experiment, they put an extra watch in their pajama >pocket. >Sure enough that watch ended up adjusted for correct time. >That freaked them out. They did it with digital as well as >standard time pieces on their person and whenever they got >abducted sure enough those time pieces were adjusted back to the >normal setting. >I was giggling at this as I asked them what happened to other >time piece not on their person. Sure enough those time pieces >were left untouched. Help me understand this. Are you saying that whomever is doing this abduction stuff is stopping time or something in some sort of field around the bed and then these guys set the watches back to Earth time so no one is the wiser? Because this is the only reason the clock would have a different time. But if this is so, the "guys" are dumb enough to not notice the time on the watch in order to set it to the owner's original time offset? These "guys" is dumb. But I guess we can't expect the "guys" to be perfect, eh? Stopping time would seem to be a dumb thing to do because you couldn't move anything anyway. In fact if time was really frozen in that region, wouldn't the location zip away into space as the rest of the Universe moves on in expansion and Earth moving around the Sun, etc. If the problem is with electronics only, then a electronics damping field would make sense which had to be corrected for after the abduction, but you say analog timepieces have the same problem. I guess we need to clarify, is the analog timepiece whose time was adjusted mechanical or battery driven? I remember a fisherman who had missing time and whose GPS recorded a rapid change in elevation and he was in a boat at the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 '007 Spy Suit' Found In NASA Bunker From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:01:07 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:59:41 -0400 Subject: '007 Spy Suit' Found In NASA Bunker Hi Everyone! Below is a news story that a colleague forwarded to me that I think may have a connection to UFOs, or at least to secret manned space programs. There were many plans by NASA and the military/ intelligence community in the early 1960s to build manned outposts on the Moon (eg. the U.S. Army's Project Horizon that is described in the appendix of Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso's book 'The Day After Roswell'). Some actual hardware is also on public display at places such the National Museum at Wright- Patterson AFB (eg. the modified two-man Gemini space capsule with a hatch at the back that would allow the astronauts to enter the attached Manned Orbiting Laboratory), home of the Foreign Technolgy Division and alleged storage place of recovered UFOs. Jerry Clark correctly pointed out in his reply to one of my earlier posts to this List that the UFO phenomenon is better understood as UFO "phenomena". For this reason the popular extraterrestrial hypothsis is not disproved but is only one of many explanations. Some of the UFOs we have observed in the skies or detected in space are definitely ours. What percentage of the total unexplained UFOs this comes out to will depend on what our elected representatives are prepared to tell us, their boss and the taxpayers who pay the bills for these secret "James Bond" manned space operations.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Weber From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:03:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:01:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Weber >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 05:50:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: William Weber <wweber1.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:38:40 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>I haven't seen anything thus far in Amy's posting that >>even comes close. Hi, Amy, >Hold on, Sweetheart, I'm just getting started! ;> Uh-oh. It seems like I'm going to be looking at a lot more bird pictures. (I'll put on another pot of coffee.) >Why is it alleged videos of UFOs are welcomed with open arms >yet evidence to the contrary is poo-poohed, criticized and >dismissed almost immediately? I most definitely did _not_ poo-poo your bird evidence -sorry. I'm no photo analyst. I just remarked that none of the bird or balloon pictures thus far looked anything like the OVNI footage. The bird pictures looked just like birds, and the balloons
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - Bueche From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Abductees - UK TV Request - Bueche >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:54:38 +0100 >Subject: Re: Abductees - UK TV Request >You think someone turning up at the TV studio with their pants >on inside-out would shatter the 'whacko' image? <LOL> The essence of that scenario was depicted in the film Ghostbusters. When the Ghostbusters are walking through a haunted library they find a stack of books piled from the floor to ceiling. Murray intones dryly "No _human_being_ would stack books like this!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Things Keel-ian - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:23:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:07:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Clark >From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >To: UFO Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:55:55 -0500 >Subject: Things Keel-ian >In regard to the continuing discussion regarding the John Keel- >ian "ultraterrestrial" concept, I feel compelled to throw my >two-cents-worth in, as it were. >I have concerns at several levels, but I'll address only one, >the seemingly vitriolic disparaging of "religion". >I share with Dick Hall a background not only in philosophy but >theology (the study of God through his self-revelation and the >application of logic and reason-not to be confused with >religion) as well. I contend that even those who speak >sneeringly regarding "religion" are just as guilty of holding to >one (a religion) as the most fervent "believer" of any stripe >you may choose. There are many issues my old friend Ray Boeche raises that I take issue with but that I will let pass, since I make it a point not to argue religion. I do, however, respect him for coming from an explicitly religious point of view, which means - though it seems to me that he's defined religion so broadly as to render the word nebulous enough to denote just anything, up to and including its antithesis - that you can take it or leave it on those grounds, in other words as Ray's expression of Ray's faith, impervious to falsification. In fact, Ray's sweeping definition aside, I think we know he is a conservative Christian - and, I suspect, from some of his suggestive political references, from which wing of which American political party he is coming. Not, I might add, my own. I am not opposed to religion; to the contrary, I happen to be a churchgoer and consider faith matters, to which I devote regular reflection, a legitimate part of life. I don't, however, think that religion has proven to be in any sense a reliable guide to understanding the natural world. Nor should we expect it to be. I don't expect to hear scientific wisdom from my parish priest, and I suspect he'd be shocked if he thought I did. Religion has its domain, which is the spiritual and moral life (though of course one doesn't have to be religious to be moral or even, I suppose, "spiritual" in some secular sense). Faith cannot help us explain what happens in nature - except inasmuch as faith can be employed to "explain" anything we want it to, to our own if not to others' satisfaction - and anomalies, however strange, happen in nature. No one has ever demonstrated that anomalies are things that somehow exist outside nature and thus are immune to scientific unraveling. Actually, as science progresses, things that once seemed to be anomalies have been explained and understood, either as something relatively trivial or as something significant. In either case, not only did they not invalidate the scientific method, they proved its efficacy in uncovering even difficult and elusive secrets. "Demons," whatever the hell (so to speak) they are supposed to be, aren't even spoken of in all religious traditions, and they have essentially vanished from some (mainstream Christianity, for example) in which they once played a role. To many religious people they are a useless explanation even in spiritual contexts, much less as dynamic forces of nature which - we apparently are asked to believe - possess the capacity to show up on radar screens and leave landing traces. What the supernaturalists want us to believe is that because UFOs and other anomalous phenomena are difficult to understand and appear deeply strange, therefore only faith and notions derived from some people's idea of it can address them, and reason (including science and logic), however loosely applied, has no role to play except where, here and there, it can be hijacked to serve faith-based supernaturalism (it covers to me that I'm describing the Intelligent Design movement). I have spent my life studying the anomalous, and nothing has ever led me to believe anything of the sort, even for a second. On the other hand, if you want to validate the longtime pelicanist charge that anomalistics thinly covers a retreat from reason and is in truth a new faith, by all means take up demons by that or any other name. That galloping sound you hear, however, will be from my feet fleeing the church as rapidly as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: UFOs Are Birds? - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:32:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:21:50 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? - Yturria >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:18:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:09:10 +0000 >>Subject: UFOs Are Birds? [was: National Or Cultural Impacts On UFO Research] >>All the links you mentioned here just present still photos of >>birds an balloons but not actual footage. We know that it's >>absolutely required to see these birds or balloons in movement >>to make comparisons with those videos from Mexico and by >>consequence to establish their diferences or their similarities. >You say comparative studies were done but nothing of this nature >has yet been presented for peer review. Talk is cheap You are so wrong. There's been many debates on national television here in Mexico discussing the balloons-UFOs issues among researchers, skeptics and media journalists including Jaime Maussan where these comparisons between balloons in the sky and UFOs videotaped were presented precisely to establish diferences in both behaviors and characteristics. Interestingly it was Jaime Maussan who made all these comparisons to be presented for the skeptics to ilustrate those diferences and this was broadcast on national TV. Needless to say the debates were intense. The intention of these presentations was also to advise the people on any confusion or misinterpretation with balloons and avoid massive excitement like the January 1, 1993 sighting for example. Of course you did'nt know anything about this, right Amy? Surely not, as you are so far from Mexico and don't know anything happening here. Therefore you just invent things and make false statements like "nothing of this nature as yet been presented for peer review". This is certainly cheap talk. I'm ready to send you or anyone who desires a videoclip to choose from seven I prepared or even the seven containing these Ballon-UFO discussions on Mexican television where Jaime Maussan presents these balloons to comment with the panel the diferences with UFOs. These are evidence that proves the fact that the issue of Balloon-UFOs has been discussed by ufologists and skeptics on Mexican television. You see I speak with evidence on hand not inventing false facts. >And why did John present video clips #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 with >no titles, no photographer's names, no dates, no locations, or >any relevant research information in his presentation? Why are >these titles missing? Who shot which video? What is going on >here? I have not visited the webpage with the videos posted by John but I see that you want identification on the clips right? I'll check the clips and I can give you all the information you are requesting, no problem at all. However I wonder if your position will change once you get these informations. >You speak of videos taken by Arturo Robles Gil in association >with the three video clips. The first set of objects in the >first video clip next to this article attributed to you look >almost exactly like the objects in clip #4 in John's >presentation at: >Did Arturo Robles Gil take this video footage? If not, who did? >Where was this footage, in clip #4 in John's presentation, >taken? What date? Time? It seems to me that you still have this kind of fixation on Mr. Robles Gil, as you keep asking so many mixed questions about him. All right I'll check the clips posted by John and I'll give you the answers. >Please pay attention, Santiago, and try to be patient. I have 8 >years of IFO video footage to sort through and upload clips for >you and others to review. Rest assured I am working on it and >you will know when it is finally available (soon). Good, then we may have a proper discussion. >You and others have yet to even clarify who took which videos, >where, when, types of cameras used, model, zoom capability, wind >speed and direction, cloud bases, temperature, barometric >pressure, visibility, balloon launches for the dates and times >in question (if this was investigated, please cite sources >contacted), exact lengths of each video, any breaks in filming >sequences, etc. If you want to point fingers demanding "proper >research" then you need to do this yourself first. I don't know about the others you mentioned, only about my resources. Yes I have detailed documented information about all the videos. That is names, locations, dates and times, etc. About the other issues you mentioned like temperature, barometric pressure etc. I will just explain you in simple words how this happens. Most of the UFO sightings videotaped are not planned or programmed, simply ocasional, accidental and certainly fortuitous. Most of the UFO witnesses are normal, simple people carrying a video camera and capturing a sighting on tape. These persons don't know about barometric pressure, cloud bases etc. They just caught on tape what they saw and presented their testimony supported by the evidence. All the technical elements you are mentioning may be recollected by the researcher during the investigation but the main issue of the case will be always the evidence on tape even more than the witness' testimonial. So please don't be naive trying to imply those issues are necesary to justify a case, they certainly may help to establish conditions but the evidence on tape is the main issue. So don't try to be smart with me here. You say you are going to provide all of us videos with comparisons among birds-balloons and UFOs? Videos that you collected over years of research? Then I challenge you to present these videos along with information about who took which videos, where, when, types of cameras used, model, zoom capability, wind speed and direction, cloud bases, temperature, barometric pressure, visibility, balloon launches for the dates and times in question - if this was investigated, please cite sources contacted - exact lengths of each video, any breaks in filming sequences, etc. Prove that you made proper research - as you demand. If you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Alien Thinking From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:36:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:36:09 -0400 Subject: Alien Thinking Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4071124.stm Wednesday, 8 June Alien Thinking By Angela Hind Pier Productions Not many scientists are prepared to take tales of alien abduction seriously, but John Mack, a Harvard professor who was killed in a road accident in north London last year, did. Ten years on from a row which nearly lost him his job, hundreds of people who claim they were abducted still revere him. Professor John E Mack was an eminent Harvard psychiatrist, psychoanalyst and Pulitzer Prize winner whose clinical work had focused on explorations of dreams, nightmares and adolescent suicide. Then, in 1990, he turned the academic community upside down because he wanted to publish his research in which he said that people who claimed they had been abducted by aliens, were not crazy at all. Their experiences, he said, were genuine. They were not mentally ill or delusional, he said, and it was the responsibility of academicians and psychiatrists not only to take what they said seriously, but to try to understand exactly what that experience was. And if reality as we know it was unable to take these experiences into serious consideration then what was needed was a change in our perception of reality. "What are the other possibilities?" said Mack. "Dreams, for instance, do not behave like that. They are highly individual depending on what's going on in your sub-conscious at the time. "I would never say, yes, there are aliens taking people. [But] I would say there is a compelling powerful phenomenon here that I can't account for in any other way, that's mysterious. Yet I can't know what it is but it seems to me that it invites a deeper, further inquiry." Lifeline For many people who claimed they had been abducted, John Mack was a lifeline. He worked with more than 200 of them, including professionals, psychologists, writers, students and business people. Many had never told anyone else of their experiences apart from Mack for fear of ridicule from colleagues, friends and family. Here at last was a highly respected psychiatrist who was not only prepared to listen - but also take what they were saying seriously. An abductee - or "experiencer" as they prefer to be known - says that alien encounters begin most commonly in their homes and at night. It can however happen anytime, anywhere. They say they are unable to move; they become extremely hot and then appear to float through solid objects, which their logical mind tells them can't be happening. Usually the experiencer says they are accompanied by one or two or more humanoid beings who guide them to a ship. They are then subjected to procedures in which instruments are used to penetrate virtually every part of their bodies, including the nose, sinuses, eyes, arms - abdomen and genitalia. Sperm samples are taken and women have fertilised eggs implanted or removed. Hybrid offspring "Have I questioned my own sanity"? says Peter Faust an experiencer and close friend of John Mack's. "Absolutely, every day to a certain degree because the majority of the world says you're crazy for having these experiences. But if it was just me who had contact with aliens, who had intimate experience with female aliens and producing hybrid offspring, I would say I'm certifiable, put me away, I'm crazy. "And that's how I felt when I initially had these experiences. My wife thought I'd lost it. But then I began to look at the experience outside myself and realised that hundreds if not thousands of people reported that exact same experience. And that gave me sanity. That gave me hope. I knew I couldn't be fantasising this." The whole experience is often accompanied by a change in the experiencer's understanding of humanity's place in the universe. And it was this that forced Mack to question who we are in the deepest and broadest sense. "I have come to realise this abduction phenomenon forces us, if we permit ourselves to take it seriously, to re-examine our perception of human identity - to look at who we are from a cosmic perspective," he said. Extraordinary work In 1990 John Mack's book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens was published. It shot to the top of the best sellers list and John Mack appeared on radio and television programmes. Harvard decided enough was enough. Mack was sent a letter informing him that there was to be an inquiry into his research on alien abductions. It was the first time in Harvard's history that a tenured professor was subjected to such an investigation. John Mack decided to fight back and hired a lawyer, Eric MacLeish. "It was appalling that John had to go through this," says MacLeish now. "And we made it clear that if we were to have a full blown trial here, then we were going to have a very public trial and call on everyone who worked with John - all of whom had nothing but praise for his extraordinary work and dedication to his patients - and I don't think that's what Harvard had in mind at all." There followed 14 months of stressful and bitter negotiations. "They tried to criticise me, silence me - by saying that by supporting the truth of what these people were experiencing, possibly I was confirming them in a distortion, or a delusion. So instead of being a good psychiatrist and curing them, I was by taking them seriously, confirming them in a delusion and harming them," said Mack. The inquiry made front page headlines all over the world and eventually Harvard dropped the case and a statement was issued reaffirming Mack's academic freedom to study what he wished and concluding that he "remains a member in good standing of the Harvard Faculty of Medicine". He continued to work and write. But Mack was killed in a car collision last year in north London after leaving a Tube station. He was visiting the city to deliver a lecture on the subject which had won him the Pulitzer Prize in 1977, T E Lawrence. But Mack's work lives on with an institute which now bears his name; the hundreds of people who count themselves in "the experiencer community" still hold him in particular affection. His search for an expanded notion of reality, which allows for experiences that might not fit traditional perceptions and worldviews, is one they, at least, will be hoping continues. Abduction, Alienation and Reason, a programme about John Mack, was broadcast on Wednesday night on BBC Radio 4 at 2100BST.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Secrecy News -- 06/08/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:31:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:38:17 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/08/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 54 June 8, 2005 ** SENATORS SUBPOENA BASE CLOSURE DOCUMENTS ** NSA: COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE ON THE HOLOCAUST ** FBI ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENAS ADVANCE IN SENATE ** CORNYN, LEAHY INTRODUCE REVISED FOIA BILL ** ALOTTA CRS REPORTS SENATORS SUBPOENA BASE CLOSURE DOCUMENTS Senators Susan Collins (R-Maine) and Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) yesterday issued a subpoena to compel the Department of Defense to disclose additional records relating to military base closures. Congressional subpoenas are relatively rare in the present era of one-party control of Congress and the executive branch, when investigative passions are muted by party loyalty. But the question of Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) affects constituent interests so directly as to overcome the congressional deference that the Bush Administration has enjoyed in so many other contexts. "The Department of Defense has failed to comply with its statutory obligations to release all BRAC-related documentation," the two Senators said. "It is crucial to the integrity of the BRAC process that the Department make available these documents immediately." See "Senators Collins and Lieberman Issue Subpoena for Base Closure Documents," news release, June 7: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/s060705.html In a May 27 memo, Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England cited the need "to protect BRAC information that standing alone, or in aggregation, would cause serious damage to national security if known by U.S. adversaries." Consequently, he said, he was "temporarily classifying all of the subject databases and information contained therein... At the Secret Formerly Restricted Data level" until they could be reviewed for declassification, a process that is still underway. See his May 27 memo here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac052705.pdf The England memo was first reported on June 1 by Inside the Pentagon, which provides comprehensive coverage of BRAC-related matters here: http://defense.iwpnewsstand.com/newsstand_bracwatch.asp NSA: COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE ON THE HOLOCAUST A major historical study of communications intelligence (COMINT) regarding the destruction of European Jewry and other targeted populations during World War II has just been published by the National Security Agency's Center for Cryptologic History. Considering the abundance of other forms of documentation on the Holocaust, the study notes, "the COMINT contribution is quite small." On the other hand, "in some cases, the COMINT translations are the only extant and contemporary record of some aspects of the Holocaust. In particular,... decrypts of the German police, SS, and SD messages are the only existing records of the daily operations of these organizations, since the Germans destroyed most of the original orders, reports and other correspondence." (p. 131). The author observes that "Allied communications intelligence discovered nothing of the prewar and early wartime high-level Nazi planning for the general campaign against Europe's Jews and other groups.... Orders to carry out these operations were not communicated in a means such as radio that could be intercepted by Allied monitoring stations." (p. 75). The new study is entitled "Eavesdropping on Hell: Historical Guide to Western Communications Intelligence and the Holocaust, 1939-1945" by Robert J. Hanyok, Center for Cryptologic History, National Security Agency, 167 pages, 2005. It is unclassified. A copy of Eavesdropping on Hell may be obtained by sending an email request including a mailing address to: history.nul . Coincidentally, another work on Holocaust-related intelligence is to be published shortly under the title "Intelligence Co- operation Between Poland and Great Britain During World War II" (Report of the Anglo-Polish Historical Committee). British intelligence officials refused to believe the accounts of mass killings of Jews and others and withheld the allegations from Prime Minister Winston Churchill, according to an account of the new book in the Times of London on June 6. FBI ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENAS ADVANCE IN SENATE The Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday approved an expansion of FBI investigative powers enabling it to issue so- called administrative subpoenas without judicial authorization. The move is unnecessary and inappropriate, argued Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR). It "would give the FBI the authority to demand just about anything from just about anybody, with no independent check, simply by claiming that it is relevant to a national security investigation." See his June 6 remarks here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s060605.html Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) offered a rebuttal, stating that administrative subpoena authority is "common within the Government" and should be extended to the FBI. See: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s060705.html The Congressional Research Service prepared a report on "Administrative Subpoenas and National Security Letters in Criminal and Foreign Intelligence Investigations: Background and Proposed Adjustments," April 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32880.pdf CORNYN, LEAHY INTRODUCE REVISED FOIA BILL Senators John Cornyn (R-TX) and Patrick Leahy (D-VT) yesterday re-introduced one section of their pending FOIA legislation as a stand-alone bill. The provision, which is about as finely sliced of a change as it could possibly be, would require that any future exemptions that Congress may enact to the FOIA must be explicitly flagged as such. "The justification for this provision is simple: Congress should not establish new secrecy provisions through secret means," said Sen. Cornyn. "If Congress is to establish a new exemption to FOIA, it should do so in the open and in the light of day." Strictly speaking, no exemptions to FOIA have ever been passed by Congress through secret means, although such exemptions are often buried in larger pieces of legislation. The Cornyn-Leahy proposal would raise their profile ever so slightly. Because it represents such a minuscule change, "This provision should not be at all controversial, and indeed, I am not aware of any opposition whatsoever to it," said Sen. Cornyn. See the introductory statements on the bill here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/s1181.html Senator Cornyn pointed to a June 3 Cox News story by Rebecca Carr entitled "Congress Cloaks More Information in Secrecy," which he entered into the Congressional Record. Cox News is the first mainstream media outlet to establish a regular journalistic "beat" on government secrecy, with continuing coverage provided by Ms. Carr. Much of her recent reporting on the subject can be found here: http://coxnews.com/cox/news//static/cwb/Rebecca_Carr.html ALOTTA CRS REPORTS For no good reason, direct public access to products of the Congressional Research Service is not authorized by Congress. So unauthorized sources must be sought. Following are some recent CRS reports obtained by Secrecy News. "Military Retirement: Major Legislative Issues," updated May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB85159.pdf "U.S. Space Programs: Civilian, Military, and Commercial," updated May 24, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/space/IB92011.pdf "U.S.-China Counter-Terrorism Cooperation: Issues for U.S. Policy," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21995.pdf "Border Security: The Role of the U.S. Border Patrol," updated May 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32562.pdf "Border Security: Key Agencies and Their Missions," updated May 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RS21899.pdf "Military Medical Care Services: Questions and Answers," updated May 5, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IB93103.pdf "Sudan: Humanitarian Crisis, Peace Talks, Terrorism, and U.S. Policy," updated April 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB98043.pdf "Nigeria in Political Transition," updated April 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB98046.pdf "Tactical Aircraft Modernization: Issues for Congress," updated April 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/IB92115.pdf "United Nations System Funding: Congressional Issues," updated April 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB86116.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood Project on Government Secrecy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:40:50 -0400 Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? by Mac Tonnies See: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com In my recent posts on the nature of apparent "aliens," I've been assuming that the UFO intelligence adapts to fit the prevailing psychosocial matrix, effectively camouflaging itself by insinuating itself into a given culture. But there's the equally appealing possibility that manifesting in terms comprehensible to witnesses reflects the perceptual <em>constraints</em> of the contact experience. "Aliens," whether perceived as gnomes or fairies or demons or even humans (as in the case of the mysterious airship sightings of the late 19th century) may be forced to appear as they are by the cultural biases and limited expectations of the witness. Thus we have a pageant of fantastic beings of all descriptions: robot-like monsters, winged entities such as the infamous "Mothman," furry giants, all manner of "little men," and, of course, the ubiquitous "Grays." However, most if not all of the above may share a common psychical origin; only by appealing to our collective unconscious can they take form at all. As such, they constitute an ongoing waking dream; they are "true hallucinations" - quantum composites that, while objectively real (as revealed by physical effects on the environment), demand a level of unconscious participation on behalf of their wide-eyed spectators. Jacques Vallee conducted a noteworthy study of reports in which UFO occupants were seen outside their craft, usually engaged in such bewilderingly innocuous tasks as taking soil and plant samples. He concluded that, given a statistical distribution of apparent UFO landings, there are simply too many landings for the extraterrestrial hypothesis to remain tenable. But if in fact UFO events <em>require</em> the presence of at least one observer, then Vallee's rogues' gallery of "absurd humanoids" makes more sense: Landings aren't as numerous as they may seem because they <em>only occur when witnessed</em>. From this, we can only conclude that at least some close encounters are staged events. Similarly, the genetic hybridization program supposedly conducted by Gray aliens, recounted in Budd Hopkins' "Intruders" and David Jacobs' "Secret Life," makes more sense when viewed as a paraphysical agenda. Abductee Whitley Strieber has famously described the abduction experience as an attempt at "communion" between two radically different kinds of intelligence. From his narrative and others, it indeed seems as if "they" want or need something from us. But I doubt that that "something" is genetic material in the usual material sense; it seems more likely to me that encounters with hybrid children and distressingly intimate "exams" are attempts to encourage belief that Grays are flesh- and-blood ET anthropologists. Their antics, while horrifying, may be as bogus as the many sightings of alien beings taking soil specimens (an activity that, as Vallee notes, echoes the itinerary of the Apollo astronauts). I think the "aliens" are waging the equivalent of a "psy-ops" campaign on the human species. It's doubtful their ultimate goal is anything so quaint (or comprehensible) as transgenic offspring, but neither is it necessarily malign. Simply, our "visitors" appear to be striving to become adept at accessing our reality, in effect becoming "more real" and thus increasingly compatible with us. We nourish them with our attention, and as they penetrate the barrier separating them from consensus reality (in which the subject of aliens and UFOs is systematically marginalized), they finally begin to loom above the bunkers of myth - incidentally, in the case of the Grays, becoming rather like ourselves in the process. Whether they come to us from the upper tiers of John Keel's "superspectrum" or from some other parallel reality, their activities betray an apparent need for attention that ufology has been essentially blind to, despite case after case of "playful" UFO behavior (especially pronounced during aircraft encounters). Perhaps by engaging our psyche, they pass the burden of their arrival onto our collective shoulders. The UFO intelligence seems curiously out of its element, a fact that should arouse extraordinary suspicion; one would think, given the time it's had to observe us, it should be thoroughly familiar with us and able to "pass through" without risking curious bystanders. But as even a summary examination of the UFO literature demonstrates, curious bystanders seem to be the whole point - and therein, I suspect, lies the ultimate identity of our unlikely guests. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 New Book on Fatima Apparitions From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:47:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:43:47 -0400 Subject: New Book on Fatima Apparitions I am glad to inform you that the first deep research book by Portuguese historians based on the original documents archives at Fatima, Portugal, of the famous 1917 Marian apparitions, will be published in July 2. Please see the web site: http://www.eccenova.com/Fernades_dArmada.htm to learn more about it. The work has a Preface by Dr. Jacques Vallee. A meticulous synthesis of history, anthropology, and science, Heavenly Lights establishes that the Fatima incident of 1917 involved not "Marian" apparitions, as is conventionally understood, but rather a series of close encounters with alien beings. It does this by subjecting all of the available pertinent facts about Fatima to a sweeping evidentiary analysis that is at once very thorough and highly readable. In periodic digressions entitled "Parallels in UFOlogy," the authors draw many relevant connections between the facts of the Fatima incident and similar events in UFO history that have occurred at different times and places around the world. The text, which is rich in historical detail, speculative insight, and paranormal allure, is illustrated with dozens of photographs and drawings that depict what actually occurred during the many events associated with the enigmatic Fatima incident. The book includes a Foreword by the eminent UFOlogist Dr. Jacques Vall=E9e that contrasts and compares "Marian" apparitions and close encounter cases, as well as relates his views about the transpersonal and spiritual dimensions of "alien contact." Thank you very much Best regards
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Sanderson In Retrospect [was: John Keel Demolished] From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:03:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:47:07 -0400 Subject: Sanderson In Retrospect [was: John Keel Demolished] >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:06:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>I wouldn't dignify Sanderson's batty notion in that book, which >>reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his >>cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything >>so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line >>in that crank classic. >I resent your characterization of my friend Ivan as a "crank" >and your suggestion that he abused alcohol. I have no idea, Bob, whether Sanderson "abused" alcohol or merely drank it. Don't care much either way. I don't even know if he was having a drink or two when he wrote his silly book. All I said was that the book read _as_if_ he were. If I offended you, you might work at thickening your skin. I really meant the observation to be light-hearted and friendly. If Sanderson was no great thinker, anad he wasn't, he was undeniably an amiable eccentric. What's wrong with that? >Ivan was a trained >and serious zoologist, and a very sober and dedicated observer. >Ivan had spent many years in the tropics living and interacting >with the native people, and this had made him far more open- >minded than most scientists. That was a trait that I valued >highly, but which science still has not embraced. Sanderson's work in cryptozoology is of, I think, lasting value, and he was indeed a pioneer in that area. Certainly no Heuvlemans, but somebody who still put something of significance into the evolving discussion and discipline. If Sanderson leaves any lasting intellectual legacy, it's in that arena. On the other hand, his ufological writing, aside from its uniquely colorful flavor, is eminently forgettable. >>He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and >>quite mad." When I quoted that line once to a prominent >>Fortean friend, he cracked that this was a pretty good >>description of Sanderson, too. > Did your "prominent Fortean friend" know Ivan? I have no idea. Didn't ask him. Didn't seem relevant to anything. If we had to know personally every writer of whom we form an opinion, writing itself would lose its purpose. Of course, I confess that your idea has a certain appeal. I could demand silence of those who give me bad reviews on the grounds that they can't say anything unflattering about me _because they don't know me personally_. Yeah, that's the ticket. But while we're on the subject of those who were personally acquainted with the late Ivan T. Sanderson: Someone who did know Sanderson well - longer and better, I suspect, than you did - was Isabel Davis, among the smartest, most insightful people who ever labored in the vineyards of American ufology (and that is in no way my assessment alone). When James McDonald embarked on UFO study, he soon learned to respect Davis's intelligence and critical acumen. So it was to her that he went with his Sanderson problem. McDonald was puzzled by just how shockingly awful Sanderson's UFO books were. I recall he and Sanderson may have exchanged a few letters; I'd have to dig through paper, but won't, for hours to make sure I'm right on this point, though I think I am. These in any event did nothing to assuage McD's confusion concerning Sanderson's intellectual failings, all the stranger coming, he thought, from someone of a scientific background. Thus, he wrote Davis. Why, he wanted to know, was Sanderson that way? With characteristic frankness Davis replied that she knew Sanderson quite well and was fond of him, but that the first thing one had to know about him was that he was a "child." On a purely personal level, from nearly everything I've heard about him, Sanderson was in no sense a bad guy. He was an entertaining, often intentionally hilarious writer. The crack about "overcivilized and quite mad" aliens is genuinely funny, except - I gather - to the humorless and reflexively defensive. Sanderson was not a great scientist, however, and he certainly contributed nothing of consequence to serious UFO research (beyond, arguably, his early investigation of the even-now- controversial Flatwoods CE3). Let's remember him as a colorful, kind-hearted personality who loved to gossip and spin stories and to speculate endlessly about whatever fancy was passing through his brain at the moment. Nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:06:47 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:49:23 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:53:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:30:09 +0000 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>Then it's up to you and other advocates to define precisely what >>you mean by 'demonology' and 'demons.' What is it, to your way >>of thinking, that makes application of this (presently >>undefined) concept applicable to UFOs? Why is it even >>appropriate to use what, in effect, is a term that carries such >>religious baggage when other terms and concepts are available? >>Is it, in your mind, somehow explanatory, merely descriptive, or >>what? I have no problem in considering possible other- >>dimensional origins, but 'demon' is a word with very strong >>connotations and its use must be justified one way or the other. >>BTW: I have a B.A. degree in Philosophy from Tulane University, >>and I am attuned to language use and semantics. In one of my >>early writings on UFOs I used the example of an American yokel >>who was told by a German that a certain four-legged equine >>animal was a 'Pferd.' He said, 'Well, you may call it a Pferd, >>but it sure looks like a horse to me.' >Richard, >What I am saying is that we should not automatically discount >strange accounts just because the person making the report >couches the events in religious rather than scientific terms. >Many of these accounts predate science as we know it today. A >good example is the "fairy rings" also discussed here recently. >Just because the folks who encountered these rings in earlier >times described them in mythological terms doesn't mean the >rings didn't exist, nor that they were not subject to later >scientific study. So who is discounting the accounts on this basis? I agree completely with what you say here. However, it seems to me that the assertions was being made that we were discounting 'demons' as an explanation without providing a definition of that word. >Encounters with alien beings would always be interpreted within >the framework of understanding of the person experiencing the >encounter. A good example is Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon >church. He interpreted the beings he encountered as angels, and >couched his explanation and exposition in religious terms. Yes, assuming what they encountered actually was 'alien beings.' >What I am saying is that we must not discount encounters with >beings outside our normal sphere of experience just because the >person describing the encounter puts the experience into a >religious framework. Again, you seem to be setting up a straw man here. I certainly do not discount such reports in that manner. To whom are your remarks addressed? >I am not saying that I think the religious >interpretation of demons is an accurate reflection of reality. I >do believe that a person working within a religious or magickal >context can make contact in an active and voluntary way. Well, you lost me there. 'Voluintary'? That sounds like baloney to me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:16:31 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:51:25 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Hall >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:06:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>I wouldn't dignify Sanderson's batty notion in that book, which >>reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his >>cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything >>so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line >>in that crank classic. >Jerry, >I resent your characterization of my friend Ivan as a "crank" >and your suggestion that he abused alcohol. Ivan was a trained >and serious zoologist, and a very sober and dedicated observer. >Ivan had spent many years in the tropics living and interacting >with the native people, and this had made him far more open- >minded than most scientists. That was a trait that I valued >highly, but which science still has not embraced. >>He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and quite mad." >>When I quoted that line once to a prominent Fortean friend, he >>cracked that this was a pretty good description of Sanderson, too. >Did your "prominent Fortean friend" know Ivan? >A good example of the scientist confronted with a Fortean event >is a story Ivan used to tell. He was in Sumatra, as I recall, >staying in a house in the rain forest. After dark one evening >pebbles were thrown against the side of the house. Everyone's >first thought was that some prankster was hiding in the bush and >throwing the pebbles. After several such salvos, Ivan borrowed >some nail polish from his wife and marked a batch of the pebbles >and threw them back into the jungle. A few seconds later another >salvo of pebbles hit the side of the house. When they were >picked up, every one of the marked pebbles was among them! Could >a prankster have found every single pebble at night in the >jungle? This experiment did not give answers about what was >really happening, but it was a scientific approach to a truly >weird experience. The local people said it was a forest demon >throwing the pebbles. Bob, I'm sure Jerry will respond, but I can't resist piping up here. I did know Ivan very well, and he was indeed a great story- teller. If you believed his stories, though, I would have serious doubts about your critical faculties. Jerry's friend had it right; except that I will go further and characterize him as a bullshit artist. I even had occasion to tell Ivan about seeing a big unidentified bird, which he proceeded to embellish and convert into a Thunderbird report in one of his books. My friends in CSI of New York also knew him well since he was involved in that group, and came to consider him quite a fantasy monger and embellisher. As did Craig Phillips, a noted
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: John Keel Demolished - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:54:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:52:45 -0400 Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished - Dickenson >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:06:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >A good example of the scientist confronted with a Fortean event >is a story Ivan used to tell. He was in Sumatra, as I recall, >staying in a house in the rain forest. After dark one evening >pebbles were thrown against the side of the house. Everyone's >first thought was that some prankster was hiding in the bush and >throwing the pebbles. After several such salvos, Ivan borrowed >some nail polish from his wife and marked a batch of the pebbles >and threw them back into the jungle. A few seconds later another >salvo of pebbles hit the side of the house. When they were >picked up, every one of the marked pebbles was among them! Could >a prankster have found every single pebble at night in the >jungle? This experiment did not give answers about what was >really happening, but it was a scientific approach to a truly >weird experience. The local people said it was a forest demon >throwing the pebbles. Hello Bob, Stone throwing episodes like that are among the most weird sounding and disbelieved of all Para/PK reports. Despite that they are also the most "investigated and confirmed by authority" events. [Last year's cases were in Mexico or S America, at least one in Africa and think another in India] However there have been some well-reported, well-investigated and confirmed cases in UK and Australia - again no human culprit found. And in some cases there was no possibility of a human culprit, for the objects were "appearing" inside a room at ceiling level and dropping to the floor. You'll find some cases in, Unexplained Phenomena - A Rough Guide Special. 2000 ISBN 1-85828-589-5 Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Hacker 'Was Trying For Proof Of Aliens' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:56:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:56:42 -0400 Subject: Hacker 'Was Trying For Proof Of Aliens' Source: The Daily Telegraph - London http://tinyurl.com/8joyg 09/06/2005 Hacker 'Was Trying For Proof Of Aliens' By Duncan Gardham A Briton said to be the "biggest military hacker of all time" was accused yesterday of breaking into 97 US government computers. Janet Boston representing the US government, told an extradition hearing at Bow Street magistrates' court in London that Gary McKinnon, 39, an unemployed computer engineer, had caused around $700,000 (=A3383,000) damage. She said: "On one instance, the US Army's military district of Washington network became inoperable." McKinnon had broken into systems partly in an attempt to prove aliens exist, his solicitor Karen Todner said after the hearing. "He believes the US government knew about UFOs and had been concealing it," she added. "He also wanted to expose weaknesses in the American security systems because he is a pacifist." Mrs Todner added: "He doesn't deny that he did infiltrate their computer system. In relation to the specific charges, we need to work out whether there are offences in relation to his action." McKinnon, of Wood Green, north London, now faces a US jail term of up to 70 years on 20 charges. The court heard he had recently started a temporary computer job and would be contesting the extradition request.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:05:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:05:38 -0400 Subject: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four BBC Radio Four's Abduction, Alienation & Reason Broadcast on Radio 4 - Wed 08 Jun - 21:00 - 30 min. Sue Nelson tells the story of John E Mack, an eminent Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard University who was also passionately interested in the phenomenon of alien abduction.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Titan's Hot Spot From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:01:09 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:26:23 -0400 Subject: Titan's Hot Spot Scientific explanation for Titans Hot spot below. Also mentions possible explanation for the radar line pictures I found which are on my website Kind regards, Col http://www.colsweb.com --------- News Release: 2005-096 June 8, 2005 Carolina Martinez Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. Scientists Discover Possible Titan Volcano A recent flyby of Saturn's hazy moon Titan by the Cassini spacecraft has revealed evidence of a possible volcano, which could be a source of methane in Titan's atmosphere. Images taken in infrared light show a circular feature roughly 30 kilometers (19 miles) in diameter that does not resemble any features seen on Saturn's other icy moons. Scientists interpret the feature as an "ice volcano," a dome formed by upwelling icy plumes that release methane into Titan's atmosphere. The findings appear in the June 9 issue of Nature. "Before Cassini-Huygens, the most widely accepted explanation for the presence of methane in Titan's atmosphere was the presence of a methane-rich hydrocarbon ocean," said Dr. Christophe Sotin, distinguished visiting scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "The suite of instruments onboard Cassini and the observations at the Huygens landing site reveal that a global ocean is not present," said Sotin, a team member of the Cassini visual and infrared mapping spectrometer instrument and professor at the Universit=E9 de Nantes, France. "Interpreting this feature as a cryovolcano provides an alternative explanation for the presence of methane in Titan's atmosphere. Such an interpretation is supported by models of Titan's evolution," Sotin said. Titan, Saturn's largest moon, is the only known moon to have a significant atmosphere, composed primarily of nitrogen, with 2 to 3 percent methane. One goal of the Cassini mission is to find an explanation for what is replenishing and maintaining this atmosphere. This dense atmosphere makes the surface very difficult to study with visible-light cameras, but infrared instruments like the visual and infrared mapping spectrometer can peer through the haze. Infrared images provide information about both the composition and the shape of the area studied. The highest resolution image obtained by the visual and infrared mapping spectrometer instrument covers an area 150 kilometers square (90 miles) that includes a bright circular feature about 30 kilometers (19 miles) in diameter, with two elongated wings extending westward. This structure resembles volcanoes on Earth and Venus, with overlapping layers of material from a series of flows. =93We all thought volcanoes had to exist on Titan, and now we=92ve found the most convincing evidence to date. This is exactly what we've been looking for," said Dr. Bonnie Buratti, team member of the Cassini visual and infrared mapping spectrometer at JPL. In the center of the area, scientists clearly see a dark feature that resembles a caldera, a bowl-shaped structure formed above chambers of molten material. The material erupting from the volcano might be a methane-water ice mixture combined with other ices and hydrocarbons. Energy from an internal heat source may cause these materials to upwell and vaporize as they reach the surface. Future Titan flybys will help determine whether tidal forces can generate enough heat to drive the volcano, or whether some other energy source must be present. Black channels seen by the European Space Agency's Huygens probe, which piggybacked on Cassini and landed on Titan's surface in January 2005, could have been formed by erosion from liquid methane rains following the eruptions. Scientists have considered other explanations. They say the feature cannot be a cloud because it does not appear to move and it is the wrong composition. Another alternative is that an accumulation of solid particles was transported by gas or liquid, similar to sand dunes on Earth. But the shape and wind patterns don't match those normally seen in sand dunes. The data for these findings are from Cassini's first targeted flyby of Titan on Oct. 26, 2004, at a distance of 1,200 kilometers (750 miles) from the moon's surface. The visual and infrared mapping spectrometer instrument can detect 352 wavelengths of light from 0.35 to 5.1 micrometers. It measures the intensities of individual wavelengths and uses the data to infer the composition and other properties of the object that emitted the light; each chemical has a unique spectral signature that can be identified. Forty-five flybys of Titan are planned during Cassini's four- year prime mission. The next one is Aug. 22, 2005. Radar data of the same sites observed by the visual and infrared mapping spectrometer may provide additional information. For more information about the Cassini-Huygens mission visit http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov and http://www.nasa.gov/cassini The visual and infrared mapping spectrometer page is at http://wwwvims.lpl.arizona.edu The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Scan Of Large Moon Minerals Area From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:21:16 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:28:27 -0400 Subject: Scan Of Large Moon Minerals Area Recent publication of large area scan of Moon minerals from ESA's Smart 1. Will be of interest to those, like myself, who own mineral rights on areas of the Moon http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=37455 or http://tinyurl.com/7kkz3 shows Aluminium, Calcium and Iron etc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:40:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:30:51 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Maccabee >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:54:14 +0100 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:20 EDT >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs <snip> >Ruppelt may have been party to the scam before the Panel > >meetings (as you say) which would suggest he had been >"persuaded" of the greater good of keeping a lid on things. The I have pointed out in my UFO-FBI book and also in the paper on line at: http://brumac.8k.com/1952YEAROFUFO/1952YEAROFUFO.html that Project Blue Book did seem to try to withhold information from the CIA or get them to "go away" when the CIA investigated the AIr Force activities in the smmer of 1952. Certainly the CIA was not told what Air Force intelligence told the FBI, namely that there was a hard core of about 3% of sightings that could not be explained and some top officials were seriously considering interplanetary craft (see the above book or web link). >You argue that the reports that the Panel were shown were >inherently poor and sure to fall apart, and that after the >Panel's thorough demolition of the cases presented OSI basically >had no grounds to protest and just admitted that they had been >wrong. I accept you have evidence that Ruppelt deliberately held I think they presented some good stuff at the Robertson panel, but it wasn't convincing. The two movies were "explained" in spite of hours of analysis by the Navy and Air Force photo analysts. But misinformation or lack of information was "rampant." ONe of the most egregious examples of Blue Book not informing the panel resulted in Thornton Page arguing that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:40:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:32:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Maccabee >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos <snip> >Thanks to the kindness of someone on the List, I was sent a >video cassette featuring reporter/speaker Jaime Maussan which i>ncludes extensive footage of the "UFOs" taken with a FLIR video >camera from an airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft as well as an >assortment of Mexican "UFO Fleet" video clips, both very recent >and from the past. I will refrain from sharing my own >observations and comments until after some associates who are >better qualified to evaluate the contents in this video cassette >have had a chance to view it. I can report on their analysis as >soon as I get it.< I presume your reference to "a FLIR vieo camera from and airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft" refers to the FLIR video of March 5, 2004 which became public knowledge in April or May
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 '007 Spy Suit' - The Story From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:01:28 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:36:43 -0400 Subject: '007 Spy Suit' - The Story Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4072798.stm Wednesday, 8 June '007 spy suit' found in Nasa bunker By Irene Mona Klotz at the Kennedy Space Center, Florida The spy was definitely not called Bond, for that name is not among the military officers selected 40 years ago to conduct reconnaissance missions for the US from an orbital laboratory in space. But secret agent Bond shares a number - 007 - with one of the US spies-in-training. Space historians are trying to find out who the mystery man is after his spacesuit turned up, along with an identical outfit bearing number 008, in an abandoned space agency (Nasa) blockhouse last used to launch Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom into space in 1961. "I wish I knew how they got there," said Roger Launius, chairman of the space history department at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. Suit 008 was easier to trace, as the word "LAWYER" was emblazoned on the left shoulder. Though some, no doubt, would have applauded the idea, sending the Nasa attorney into space was not part of the programme. Rather, the suit belonged to Air Force Lt Col Richard Lawyer, a member of the first group of eight military officers selected in 1965 to serve in a programme known as the Manned Orbiting Laboratory, or MOL. Robot spies Over the next two years, the programme, run by the Air Force in cooperation with Nasa, signed up another nine aspiring space spies and began training them for what was expected to be month- long missions aboard an orbital outpost based on a modified Gemini capsule. The programme died in 1969, as advances in robotics and satellite technology began to match what the military wanted to achieve by stationing human eyes in space - namely keep watch over its Cold War Soviet foes - and do so at a fraction of the cost. We had to open it up and look at the suits because [with KSC] being a wildlife preserve, you never know what else might be in there with it Dann Oakland, Nasa security officer. "The programme didn't get too far," Launius said. "In the end, the programme didn't require humans in the loop. "Plus, with the pressures on the military during the Vietnam War, it was a pretty easy decision on the part of the secretary of defense to cancel MOL." Programme relics, including at least 22 flight training suits made by Hamilton Sundstrand, were collected over the years and dispatched to the Smithsonian, which serves as the official US space programme archivist. But at least two of the sky-blue suits disappeared. No one knows how long the suits languished in the dark and rodent-infested Blockhouse 5/6 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, located adjacent to the Kennedy Space Center. Space mouse Late last year, however, fire marshals inspecting part of the facility noted piles of decomposing film and deemed them a fire hazard, said Luis Barrios, a design specialist hired by Kennedy Space Center to work with its museum and tourist centre. When security officials went to clean out the blockhouse, they found a locked annexe with no key. After tracking down a master key, the officers stumbled upon a blue box on the floor of the building and opened it. A hand-painted Nasa meatball emblem adorned the inside cover and nestled inside the container were two blue spacesuits and four or five pairs of gloves. "We had to open it up and look at the suits because [with KSC] being a wildlife preserve, you never know what else might be in there with it," Nasa security officer Dann Oakland said. The officers did, in fact, find a mouse nest in the box and tossed it away before packing up the space artefacts and taking them to a secure site. Lawyer's suit has already been shipped to the Smithsonian, which will soon begin the restoration process. Suit 007 would be following shortly, Barrios said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:28:44 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:45:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Gonzalez >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:48:59 -0600 >Subject: Humanoids At Faded Discs >Volume 13 in the Audio History of Ufology Project is available >to researchers. Wonderful work! Well done! I specially look forward to hear about Mr. Squyres 1952 humanoid case, in his own voice. Just one point. In your summary you wrote: Vilas Boas: Although considered one of the first alien abduction cases, it is more a CE III encounter with humanoids, since Villas-Boas was not technically abducted, but did interact sexually with a female alien This clearly shows how the idea of abductions has changed in time. Villas-Boas _was_ technically abducted. He was carried forcibly inside the UFO by several humanoids in spacesuits. On the other hand, earlier abductions did _not_ usually included sexual interactions with female/male aliens (only 12 cases in Bullard's 1987 sample), just medical exams maybe centered around the reproductive system.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Sanderson In Retrospect - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:15:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:48:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Sanderson In Retrospect - Gehrman >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:14:48 -0700 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >>>So saucers from the hollow earth are still a possibility? We can't >>>rule out Adamski's Venus or Bethurum's Clarion? What about >>>Woody Derenberger's Lanulos? Or Fort's sky islands? Or space >>>animals? Or Russian secret weapons? How about Sanderson's >>>hidden race of under-the-ocean OINTS (Other INTelligenceS)? >>>Survivors of Atlantis and Lemuria? What about deros? >>Ivan Sanderson builds a strong circumstantial case for his >>"invisible residents" theory. Although his ideas might sound >>crazy at first glance, he buttresses them with scientific >>evidence and well documented sightings and research. Maybe >>there's some connection between Sanderson's suppositions and >>Clarion, or deros but I doubt he'd relish the association. >>His "Invisible Residents" theory is by far the simplest >>explanation for what's happening above our heads and in the >>waters around us. It doesn't need faster than light travel, or >>other dimensions, or time machines; all that's required is a >>simple understanding of evolution and an appreciation for >>immense spans of time. >I wouldn't dignify Sanderson's batty notion in that book, Jerry, Which "batty notion"? Sanderson discusses many "notions" but his primarily concern is that UFO researchers are overlooking the simplest explanation for the sky and water anomalies that modern humans are experiencing. His notion is that these creatures have evolved here and now live under the ocean. >which reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his >cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything >so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line >in that crank classic. If idiosyncratic writing styles were eliminated from the UFO literature, there wouldn't be much left to read. While it may be a "crank classic", it's filled with astute observations and excellent research. Maybe you could specify your objections to the factual material. >He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and quite >mad." Yes, and here is something we agree on. It's a start. >When I quoted that line once to a prominent Fortean friend, he >cracked that this was a pretty good description of Sanderson, too. But you've skirted my assertion so I'll restate it: I seems counter productive for Ufologists to theorize other dimensions, or time travel or ETH (star folk) or demons to explain the phenomena happening in our sky and oceans, while ignoring
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:52:15 -0400 Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Photos And Docs About UFOs In Amazon From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:32:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:57:42 -0400 Subject: Photos And Docs About UFOs In Amazon Here: http://www.ufo.com.br/materiaespecial/operacaoPrato.htm you can find photos and docs about UFOs in the Amazon -, as I've described in my recent radio interviews - including the amazing Operation Saucer and the attacks on humans by aliens. I'm afraid that most of the material is in Portuguese, and only some is English. So, volunteer translators are needed to translate the articles into English for Lists and Forums.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Connors From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:14:56 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:31:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Connors >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:28:44 +0200 >Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs >>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:48:59 -0600 >>Subject: Humanoids At Faded Discs >>Volume 13 in the Audio History of Ufology Project is available >>to researchers. >Wonderful work! Well done! I specially look forward to hear >about Mr. Squyres 1952 humanoid case, in his own voice. >Just one point. In your summary you wrote: >Vilas Boas: Although considered one of the first alien abduction >cases, it is more a CE III encounter with humanoids, since >Villas-Boas was not technically abducted, but did interact >sexually with a female alien >This clearly shows how the idea of abductions has changed in >time. Villas-Boas _was_ technically abducted. He was carried >forcibly inside the UFO by several humanoids in spacesuits. >On the other hand, earlier abductions did _not_ usually included >sexual interactions with female/male aliens (only 12 cases in >Bullard's 1987 sample), just medical exams maybe centered around >the reproductive system. <snip> Thank you, Luis, for the very kind words regarding the "Humanoids." I really agonized over placing the Villas-Boas case into the CE lll category, as I included the case in the abduction compilation (CE IV), but decided to include the case in the CE lll category for a simple reason... at the time of the incident alien abduction wasn't recognized at that point in ufological history. Thus, I maintained the original CE lll concept of the event for this compilation because Villas-Boas was cognizant of the event at the time of occurance without so-called screen memories, etc. that beset the more esoteric phase of the abduction phenomena, as it is viewed today. Having made the decision I knew that it might cause some consternation among researchers. However, my work dictates I approach the subject from the time-frame and knowledge base of the times, in order to maintain as much historical purity as possible when compiling the audio data. I will be unavailable for awhile due to surgery tomorrow. However, I shall return with more compilations of the audio history of Ufology once I mend.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:20:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:34:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:02:01 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >There is something very unique about the Mexican videos >that Amy or Nick or anybody else will _never_ be able to >duplicate. Not as long as they are using any species of bird >or type of balloon to do it. Boy! I did not know you are an expert on meteorology and physics and aerodynamics! I am really impressed of your authoritative opinion! Armchair expert of the kind we really need! Look, bub, you come back to me with some radar of these objects or time tagged stereo video of these "common" UFO "collection" visits (don't forget to get your vigilantes to record the camera angles and hopefully cooridinate the FOV) and then we will have something worthy of analysis. As it is the source of dubious pedigree, interesting yes, but only for fun and entertainment. Was the damn camera pointed vertically or horizontally? What was the weather? Do they have weather stations down there? The fact is that they got damn good weather stations down there and you guys are sitting on your hands waiting for a "research team". Lazy! I know from some armchair research that Mexico is balloon crazy (who knows why). I know from some armchair research that balloons are commonly released by political campaigns and other publicity stunts and festivals in Mexico. I know the vagaries of wind currents, mild vortexes, perspective viewing, etc can create the video images you advocate so vigorously. As well as outright hoaxing. I think the idea of a IFO video database makes sense because we don't have the time (or expertise) to know what every kind of unusual looking known object looks like (unless we spend 30 years on the topic). >At some point it all starts to look a little desperate on >their part. We all need to be patient and understanding >with Amy and Nick and even Mr. Smith. Oh thank you Sir! Me be dumb, want you help! >Their level of 'fear' regarding this >subject may much greater than for the average person. >Apparently, they need to cling to the comfort of their >'familiar' world view even when it doesn't fit the real >conditions or circumstances. Why else would they spend >so much of the time of their lives trying desperately to >convince everyone that they are seeing something that >is not there. ie 'birds.' Fear! What a guy you are Mr.Velez! I think I have made it clear that alien spaceships are welcome in my book. I think they could do a much better job running things, but it is clear that they must be very intelligent because they have chosen not too (i.e. why run such a bunch of problem children!). Oh yes, I cannot be trusted so ignore anything I write or twist it around to fit YOUR world view. >The reality of UFOs, I mean actually seeing one up >close, shatters your world view into a million tiny pieces. >The world you thought you knew is gone in an instant. >It is never the same afterwards. The UFO >encounter becomes a demarcation, a dividing point in the >person's life. There is the 'you' _before_ you saw the UFO >and then there is the 'you' after you saw the UFO. The >'you' after you saw the UFO sees the world much differently >than the the 'you' before the encounter. A bit melodramatic, sir. Yes, I agree that it is impressive. Depending on the fragility
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:26:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:40:34 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:46:09 -0300 >Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:57:50 -0400 >>Subject: UN Petition Signature Update >>An update to let everyone know where we're at in terms of >>signature collection for the UN Petition. The count currently >>stands at: 5835. >>Please, I encourage all of you to go the petition website, read >>it, and if you agree with the content, sign it. Then, tell as >>many others as you can to do likewise. >>With the recent release of information from Brazil the time may >>be ripening for submitting the petition to the Secretary General >>of the UN. Hopefully other countries will follow the lead of >>countries like Belgium, Mexico, Brazil and others. In time, we >>may finally know the truth behind the UFO presence and the >>interference of the UFO occupants into lives of literally >>thousands of human beings. >>After hearing the harrowing details of the UFO landing in Brazil >>where the craft fired 'beams' at people and even injured a few, >>I think it's time to get off your duff and get involved in >>seeking the truth from our governments and militaries. When a >>report such as this is added to the reports of the abductees, >>the chances for these visitors being benign begin to diminish >>rapidly. I have been saying all along that there is an 'urgency' >>to all this that even many who are involved in ufology on a >>daily basis fail to fully appreciate. >>Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition >John: >Maybe there is something that we can do to help your campaign. >We have reached over 60,000 signatures in our movement, UFOs: >Freedom of Information Now, here in Brazil, that has already >shown results in asking our Government to open its secret files. >I am absolutely convinced that 99% of the people who signed our >petition would sign UN's as well, IF we have material in >Portuguese available for them to read and a proper announcement. >Let's think about it? Hola A. J., The petition is already available in the Portuguese language! It has been available in your language from day one at: http://virtuallystrange.net/petition/portuguese.html I do not speak or write in Portuguese. If you or one of your associates can draft an announcement in Portuguese I will be happy to post it on the petition homepage which is located at the Virtually Strange Network. Feel free to publish it anywhere you think it will be seen by the most people and do the most good. Thank you for your offer of assistance. It is most appreciated. I only wish that more people would take an active interest in insuring the success of this effort to secure disclosure of UFO information from more of the world's governments.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:29:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:56:14 -0400 Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs - Shough >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:40:44 -0400 >Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:54:14 +0100 >>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:20 EDT >>>Subject: Re: OSI CIA NSC MIT AF & UFOs ><snip> >I think they presented some good stuff at the Robertson panel, >but it wasn't convincing. The two movies were "explained" in >spite of hours of analysis by the Navy and Air Force photo >analysts. But misinformation or lack of information was >"rampant." ONe of the most egregious examples of Blue Book not >informing the panel resulted in Thornton Page arguing that >UFOs/saucers couldb't be real because if they were they'd be >seen all over the world, not just in the United States. Why >didn't someone tell him that they were seen all over the world? >(Even the CIA knew that!) Someone surely did tell him! And the CIA _especially_ knew that. Why didn't Page pay attention to the Panel's own briefing materials? According to Ruppelt the AF briefing included "a study of geographical locations [which] covered other countries". The OSI Special Study Group that led up to this had reviewed foreign reports going back to the ghost rockets and Chadwell briefed the Panel on this. CIA noted, and the Panel actually discussed, implications of the fact that the Soviet press was evidently silent on UFOs as a matter of policy, and in terms of the psy-war concerns on which CIA also briefed the Panel the nature and incidence foreign reports was a vital issue. There were numerous foreign incidents in CIA files for the period 1949-52, as well as those collected by Sign/Grudge, plenty of interesting ones from the Korea war zone. It's impossible this stuff was not mentioned. In fact Item 21 Tab B of the Robertson Report under "Evidence presented" reads: "Miscellaneous . . . foreign intelligence reports dealing with the subject". Page called it "preposterous" that there were no foreign reports, and admitted later he had to be ticked off by Robertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 9 Re: Things Keel-ian - Boeche From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:59:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Boeche >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:23:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >There are many issues my old friend Ray Boeche raises that I >take issue with but that I will let pass, since I make it a >point not to argue religion. >I do, however, respect him for coming from an explicitly >religious point of view, which means - though it seems to me >that he's defined religion so broadly as to render the word >nebulous enough to denote just anything, up to and including its >antithesis - that you can take it or leave it on those grounds, >in other words as Ray's expression of Ray's faith, impervious to >falsification. >In fact, Ray's sweeping definition aside, I think we know he is >a conservative Christian - and, I suspect, from some of his >suggestive political references, from which wing of which >American political party he is coming. Not, I might add, my own. >I am not opposed to religion; to the contrary, I happen to be a >churchgoer and consider faith matters, to which I devote regular >reflection, a legitimate part of life. I don't, however, think >that religion has proven to be in any sense a reliable guide to >understanding the natural world. Nor should we expect it to be. >I don't expect to hear scientific wisdom from my parish priest, >and I suspect he'd be shocked if he thought I did. Jerry's point is well-taken, and it leads me to believe I failed to adequately clarify my position in the original post. When I defined and discussed "religion" I did so to demonstrate the broad implications of any given worldview, ideology, or philosophy. I'm simply saying that everyone operates from a personally held worldview. One can't automatically divorce one's perceptions from the basic presuppositions which one holds. Any and every worldview, under the Merriam-Webster's definition which I provided, can be considered in that sense, a "religion." I would differentiate between the premise I've put forward that everyone holds to some type of "religion" (that is, ideology/philosophy/worldview) and those "belief systems" upon which any particular ideology/philosophy/worldview is based. I will use my own belief system as an example. I am in absolute agreement with Jerry that, as in my case, the Christian scriptures cannot be used as a reliable guide to understanding the mechanics of the natural world. They were never intended to be such. They do, however, from my point of view, establish God as the "First Cause". Beyond that, they are silent as to the processes he established for the operation of his creation. As Isaac Newton, a Christian scientist said, "Science is the process of thinking God's thoughts after Him." It's only through the natural sciences that we can begin to discover how God set the universe to functioning. However, I also believe that pure scientism/naturalism fails to address many things, not the least being the idea of "ex nihilo" creation =97 the appearance of something (all the matter in the universe) from nothing. If one maintains an eternally existent universe (whether cyclically expanding and contracting via Big Bang and Big Crunch, or a steady-state existence or some other permutation) one must still answer (or at least address) the question of where this "materia prima" (raw material) came from. My worldview - my religion - maintains that it was from God, a transcendent being (one who exists outside of space and time) yet also immanent (able to act within this spatial/temporal universe he created.) I feel that neither spirituality alone or science alone can be expected to answer every aspect of every question we have about this world. We begin to see, as I believe I mentioned in my original post, that quantum and chaos theories seem to be making the first tentative inroads into what may be the conjunction between the eternal/transcendent and the spatial/temporal. While I believe that I can offer rational, logical arguments for my belief system, I certainly would never claim my own personal understanding to be beyond question. In fact, my intellectual, philosophical and spiritual understanding develops (and I hope, matures) constantly. With Christianity, as with any other field, the more I learn, the more I discover I don't know. Jerry, while I may "sit across the aisle" from you politically, as you know I have always held you in the highest regard, and am honored to call you my friend. You are one of the most valuable assets the field of ufology can claim, and your insight and intellectual rigor are always a breath of fresh air in an increasingly twaddle-filled and ego-driven venue. Ray
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:01:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >You definitely would love to see this: >http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >A. J. Gevaerd Hi A.J. Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in support of these personal beliefs if it makes certain people feel good as I have good reasons to suspect is the case with some of the more interesting UFO fleet video clips. If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and instead search for the missing news film footage of three saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Filer's Files #24 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:28:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:14:00 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #24 - 2005 Filer's Files #24 =96 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International June 7, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Sightings continue at high rate The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. Assuming UFOs are real, then much of what we know in science is wrong, that it is quite likely they had a profound effect on the development of Earth. This week's files cover Mars anomalies, Earth microbes may survive on Mars and UFOs in the movies. UFOs were seen over Alabama, Arizona, California, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, and Washington. Sightings were also reported in Brazil, Canada, Mexico, and the United Kingdom. Mars anomalies Richard Buchli D.V.M. Ph.D. writes:This image is posted on the European Space Agency site. I suggest you enlarge and lighten this ESA photo of object on Mars. It sure looks like some kind of "modernistic" structure?? What do you think?? The European Space Agency Mars Express High-Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) obtained image data in orbit 438 with a ground resolution of 43 meters per pixel. The images cover the structure Coprates Catena, a southern part of the Valles Marineres canyon at about 14=B0 S and 301=B0E. Coprates Catena is a chain of collapse structures with a depth of between 2500 to 3000 meters. The valley walls show a few land slides. This indicates that their origin is solely due to expansion of the surface or collapse with removal of underlying material (water or ice?). On the valley floor, the bright area exposed is possibly sulfates. Editors Note: Just above the bright area in the image that could be an ancient lake are structures or square blocks that may indicate ancient construction On the canyon wall there is what appears to be writing? Also the green areas indicate plant or alga growth. http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/marsexpress/127-291004-0438- 6-co-01- CopratesCatena_H.jpg Earth microbes may survive on Mars NASA reports that terrestrial microbes that hitch a ride to Mars on spacecraft may be able to survive under special circumstances, according to a new laboratory study. The research suggests scientists should take extra care when analyzing potential signs of life during future missions to the Red Planet. Most spacecraft that touch down on Mars have not been thoroughly sterilized by heat or radioactivity - so they carry with them living microbes from Earth. But Mars's thin atmosphere allows such intenseultraviolet radiation to reach the planet's surface - triple that found on Earth - that any life inadvertently carried on the spacecraft is thought to be wiped out quickly. Indeed, Martian-level doses of UV radiation have destroyed some microbe species in just seconds in laboratory tests. But now, an international team has tested the endurance of a particularly hardy type of blue-green alga - or cyanobacterium =96 that thrives in dry deserts from Antarctica to Israel. The resilient bacterium, called Chroococcidiopsis sp. 029, was chosen as a "worst-case scenario" for contamination of the planet. The team found that dormant spores of the bacterium had mostly died after five minutes of Martian UV exposure. However, the bacteria were able to stay alive if they were shielded by just 1 millimeter of soil during the tests, which ran for up to 24 hours.Making a living under such a protective coating, the bacteria "could survive =96 and potentially grow - under the high Martian UV flux if water and nutrient requirements for growth were met"."We think there are places on Mars where Earth life could make a living," says John Rummel, NASA's planetary protection officer in DC, who is charged with preventing microbes from contaminating worlds beyond Earth. He says this study shows "even the toughest stuff doesn't survive for long" on the surface of spacecraft, but he says live microbes probably do take shelter within the spacecraft bodies. Martian gullies that may periodically be flooded with liquid water, or areas around the poles, where "microbes and ice could make a happy partnership", Rummel told New Scientist. Snip Thanks to http://www.newscientistspace.com/channel/solar- system/dn7454 Editor's Note: In 1976, Mars Viking Lander's Life Probes and Gilbert V. Levin's Labeled Release Life Detection Devices found microbial life on Mars. I spoke with Dr. Levin who is more positive than ever that life was found. This color -enhanced view of Big Joe boulder at the Viking 1 lander site (SOL 556) with a green covering and a cap of material on top of the boulder missing from surrounding rocks. Courtesy of Lunar and Planetary Institute/Texas. Viking likely took photos of blue-green alga - or cyanobacterium on Mars in 1976. In my opinion Mars has water, plant life and evidence of ancient structures. NASA may deny life on Mars because it is an ideal site for colonization. June through August, Earth is catching up with Mars bringing us closer for at least 5000 years. It is slowly becoming the brightest star or planet in the night sky. Mars Rover Opportunity breaks free "The Mars rover Opportunity resumed rolling freely across the Martian surface on June 4, 2005, after it was freed from a sand dune where it had been mired for nearly five weeks. The rover cost $400 million to build.and got caught in a one foot high sand dune on April 26. Alabama high speed triangular objects MONTGOMERY =96 A Security Officer on vehicle patrol near the downtown area at 2:45 AM, on May 25, 2005, noticed two strange objects flying above him. They had strobe lights that emanated along the entire length of all 3 sides of each object as well as 3 large pulsing lights under the bottom of each object. He states, "I noticed a low humming noise coming from the triangles that were flying at about 10,000 feet altitude." The objects moved slowly at first, almost seeming to hover, and after about 20 seconds they exited to the west in a burst of speed that I can only describe as almost instantaneous. The objects then stopped again and were only visible as 2 pulsing lights at that point. The objects again moved to the West and disappeared completely. The objects maintained exact distance from each other during this entire time and the altitude of the objects did not seem to change during this sighting. The event lasted about 30 Seconds. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com Arizona numerous lights light up the sky CAVE CREEK -- Here in Phoenix the UFO activity is increasing and a fellow named Josh is taping incredible lights appearing and seemingly taking off at great speeds. The video is great and shows a series of lights. Josh's video was one of many shot north of Phoenix. It was a clear night and no winds. I have received e-mail from a resident living up there reporting that they have seen the lights and they say they show up often but never that bright. I, also, received an e-mail wondering if they were airplanes but then that would mean there were 5 or 6 planes turning their lights on at the same time and then turning them off, which is unlikely, especially at that location. I also found out the distance from house to object (s) may have been several miles away but close enough to hear them if they were planes. Video footage =A92005 Josh. Thanks to Brian Vike see: www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2756 California triangle moving sideways SACRAMENTO =96 The witness spotted a triangle shaped craft with distinct illuminations on each corner at 2 PM, on May 25, 2005. The craft was about the size of a pea at arm's length, and its speed was about twice as fast as a high flying airliner. The object seemed to be traveling sideways towards the south. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com SAN FRANCISCO --A shiny dime sized metallic object appeared out of nowhere and vanished within 20 seconds over San Francisco on May 25, 2005, at 4:15 PM. I was on a tour boat on San Francisco Bay returning from Alcatraz Island. I was with two friends but they did not witness what I saw because by the time I told them it had already vanished.The boat was approaching San Francisco Pier 41, when I noticed a shiny metallic gray object that suddenly appeared over downtown San Francisco at no more than 10,000 feet.It was the only object that caught my eye, from my view it appeared to be just a bit smaller than a dime, it moved slowly upwards for about 10 seconds, then it rotated about 45 degree as if making a sharp left turn.The bottom appeared flat with a slight bulge and a white center. There was a shiny reflection that lasted about 10 seconds, then it changed to a diamond shape and sped upwards at incredible speed and vanished completely leaving no trace. The sky was mostly clear except for patches of low fog over the bay. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com SONORA -- Mark A. Olson, D. M. writes, "After a few quiet nights, the sightings continue. There have been some very strange sightings of flashing objects and more glowing objects on June 4, 2005." The above images are of the flashing object that was videotaped at 10:23 PM last night. The object made no sound and flew in an erratic zigzag fashion roughly to the northeast. The flashes were the only visible evidence of the object. Out of six glowing objects sighted last night, three occurred right after the other between 10:54 and 10:59 PM. The first two of the trio headed to the South, the third to the North. Each one appeared, brightened, and then slowly disappeared as they moved farther and farther away. (Please note that these sightings were felt before they happened. My brother and I both felt that these objects were going to appear just before they did, as documented on the video clips.) These video clips can be seen here: "ttp://www.sonorasightings.com/109186.html Florida glowing orbs ORANGE COUNTY -- Roberta Puhalski, writes, "On April 22, 2005 about 11 PM, the Georgia UFO Group Hotline received a cell phone call from just north of Orlando where three Orange County fishermen had just observed at 20 yards a glowing orb type of UFO. The orb performed incredible maneuvers at a fantastic speed. They were so shocked; they phoned 411 and asked for the Operator to get them in touch with any UFO investigator that could be found. They reached Tom Sheets of GUFOG in Fayetteville, Georgia who turned the case over to Roberta Puhalski, the founder of the Central Florida UFO Group in Lakeland. Roberta Puhalski met with the three witnesses at the event site two days later and conducted a complete investigation. She determined that the witnesses while night fishing and shining a flashlight observed what was initially thought to be an alligator's eye reflecting their flashlight beam about 20 yards away in some bushes. Suddenly the light rose up from the bushes into full sight at an alarmingly fast speed and was observed to be a dimly glowing orangish-red orb about the size of a basketball (+). The orb continued to rise at this very fast rate until it reached an altitude of about 150 feet, then it hovered, moved to the side about 100 feet, and then came back down, tracing something like a triangle in it's flight path. The object moved so fast it was difficult for the eye to follow. He added that there appeared to be an object of unknown size and shape behind or attached to the orb, but it was difficult to see exactly what it was (due to rapid speed and brief period of flight). This object flew off and vanished after returning closer to the ground. Puhalski found these witnesses credible, forthright and cooperative. Thanks to Roberta Puhalski, founder- Central Florida UFO Group Hawaii a UFO was seen over volcano MAUNA KEA VOLCANO =96 A private airplane pilot and amateur astronomer was walking on Jade Avenue in Volcano, at 7:35 PM, on May 24, 2005, and saw a classic disc shaped UFO hovering between Mauna Loa and Mauna Kea. My vision is not the best and this could have been a lenticular cloud. The sun had set and the sky was clear. There was just one UFO and the color appeared to be gray. The event lasted perhaps five minutes. There are a military base, and astronomical observatories in that area. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com Illinois fireworks UFO IPAVA -- The UFO looked like a fireworks rocket that shoots up but never explodes. On May 20, 2005, at 10:08 PM, three friends were swinging on a swing set in a public park in small town of about 540 people. They saw an object shooting from the ground up at about 50 meters from behind a tall tree. They waited for it to explode like professional fireworks do, but it didn't! There was dead silence.There were about ten small bright balls of light lined straight up and they disappeared altogether. As they disappeared I saw one of the middle balls curve out of formation with the other and there were airplanes or jets flying behind it. Then we saw a bright yellow light swerve all over the place but it slowly got dimmer and dimmer until it was gone. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com ROCKFORD -- On the morning of May 15, 2005, Nancy was photographing what looked like the Northern Lights, only 'white' at 3 AM. She thought she was photographing lights on a clear night and she believes the object clearly shows portholes running along its length. There is a 'blue cast to the object' and a blurred trail to the left of the object that appears the object was moving from left to right at some speed. Thanks to Dirk at the ufoDigest.com Email - publisher.nul and Skywatch International. "ttp://www.skywatch-international.org/ Indiana black shape-shifting black mass SOUTH BEND -- At 7:45 PM on May 25, 2005, the witness saw a black shape-shifting black mass in the sky traveling in a gentle southeast to northwest direction about two miles south of the Indiana and Michigan border between Niles, Michigan and South Bend, Indiana. I watched this phenomenon for at least 20 minutes before it was obscured by moving clouds. Several jets flew by and the black shape-shifting mass seemed to be at the same altitude, but moving very slowly. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com Nevada multiple orange colored objects LAS VEGAS =96 On June 5, 2005, a woman reported that she and a neighbor witnessed a number of flying objects between 5:45 and 6:40 PM. Some of the objects were alone and the last sighting on the same day ended up being a large orange, pulsating cluster of objects. An audio report can be heard at: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D27 62 Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research New Jersey sunset photograph of orbs NORTH BERGEN -- John Schuessler MUFON's Director reports, Marc Taylor was standing on his balcony which looks out towards the west, and took a picture of a nice sunset, when he uploaded the image to his computer he noticed weird orbs in the photo. He states, "I didn't see the orbs when I took the picture only when I reviewed it later." Thanks to MUFON and Marck Taylor www.mufon.com " New York five shiny dome shaped objects BROOKVILLE -- On May 27, 2005, at 14:00 hours, on a sunny day, five silver extremely shiny, dome shaped objects were seen flying across a clear blue sky. The first three were flying in a triangular formation, with two others following behind, perfectly aligned. They all flew at the same speed and where headed east. It took about 3-5 seconds for the objects to leave. My wife was with me and saw everything I am describing. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com North Carolina disk and apparitions Alan Caviness dropped off this photo of aircraft lights taken during an extended exposure. The blinking lights are shown at intervals of about one second. Alan Caviness CD shows many explained and unexplained dimensions containing images that you can receive free if you donate to these files. ORIENTAL =96 On May 25, 2005, at 2:21 AM, eerie purple and greenish glow= from craft of about 24 feet diameter that hovered in tree limbs, or partly= concealed by them, as three figures moved toward the ground in an enclosed= sphere of gray light. The three approached the screen porch of the home= where I was sitting. The figures were almost transparent and had an orange= cast that seemed to grow lighter and darker =96 almost as if they were= "talking" with signals.They came right up to the screen and watched me for= more than a minute. At the time I sensed that the entire area was enclosed= in some sort of force field =96 almost as if I were in a black hole where= nothing could escape or enter if not already inside. It was the oddest= sensation I've ever experienced. Thanks Peter Davenport Director= www.UFOcenter.com Ohio UFO near the ground FOSTORIA - On June 6, 2005, George Ritter took this photo of a UFO over a nearby farmer's field. He has reversed the colors to show a negative image. Thanks to George Ritter. Oklahoma fighter chases triangular craft NOBLE =96 The report was sent by a competent, educated scientist of sound mind and character, who never reported anything like this before. At 11:30 PM, on May 27, 2005, while taking my nightly walk, I observed a triangular craft traversing the sky from north to south at about 20,000 feet on a clear night. The craft's speed was about 500 knots and several miles behind was a fighter jet moving very rapidly, 600 to 700 knots. Both craft were flying toward my position. I could begin to hear the engines of the jet at that time. It appeared the triangular craft was toying with the fighter, and when it got close the craft would speed up. As the two got nearly directly over my location, the triangular craft made a sharp right hand turn toward the west, but the jet was unable to make the sharp turn and made a much wider loop. After a few seconds the triangle accelerated dramatically and left the jet behind. One thing that was odd about the triangular craft was the three lights making up the triangular pattern were not equal in distance. Referencing the wingspan of the jet, two of the lights on the craft were about 50 to 75 feet apart and the third light was 100 to 150 feet from the other two lights. Additionally, the two lights closer together were at the front and the other further away light was at the rear facing the pursuing jet. This made the craft to appear to be moving in reverse. The color of the triangular craft lights were an unusual milky white color, nothing like the very bright red, green and white lights observed on the jet. Tinker Air Force Base, which does have fighters, is located about 25 miles east of my house. ((NUFORC Note: We found the witness to be quite objective. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com Texas disc photographed LAKE O' THE PINES -- On June 2, 2005 at 7:40 PM, the witness was walking the north shore to get some pictures with his Fuji film Fine Pix 2800 Zoom digital camera. He took several pictures of the sky, the lake, a passing boat, and later the sunset. I saw nothing unusual, until I returned home and uploaded the images and noticed an oval object in only one of the pictures. The object appeared to be somewhat distant. The picture was taken at approximately 7:55 PM while facing east toward the dam at the eastern end of the lake, and my camera was optically zoomed at 6 X with the settings at 2 megapixels and "fine" quality. The object appeared to be over the dam at the Lake O' the Pines. Thanks to Skywatch International http://www.skywatch- international.org/ Eyewitness report UFO Casebook online report. http://www.ufocasebook.com/lakeothepines.htm Utah white light MOAB =96 Ed writes, "I read your account from last week's Filer's Files 23 (5/25/05): BEAVER DAM =96 The witness saw unidentified flying objects last month, and again on May 16, 2005, at 9:30 PM. A small white light appeared that moved like a satellite, only much, much closer to Earth traveling towards the southwest at low altitude. It seemed to slow down or even stop. Ed states, "On May 29th about 10 PM, I saw this exact same thing. It looked like a satellite for a few seconds, then got really bright (brighter than Jupiter) for maybe three seconds, then flew away and was gone in couple of seconds. I guess I saw my first UFO." Thanks to Ed. Washington flying triangle KIRKLAND -- As a former airline employee the witness was trained to identify incoming aircraft. On May 13, 2005 at 12:19 AM, the witness saw a craft flying at of 200 to 350 feet traveling at 70-110 knots banking towards the northeast and becoming undetectable as it became level. The slow, low flying object was black with seven lights on two angles of a triangle, one on tip three following each leading edge, none on back end of triangle. The color of the lights was a very light salmon/orange yellow. Lights glowed with barely detectible movement similar to air heating phenomena on heated roadways. The witness states, "It was banking on it's forward right edge and I had a clear view of the bottom of craft as it was banking, but when it leveled out it was GONE/perfectly stealthy. It made barely any noise. I also did a better Photoshop picture of the craft and the location. The picture I am sending was taken in the predawn so the viewers could see the craft like I did. Thanks Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com Update on Brazil and the ETI Reality! Picture: Taken aboard a Brazilian Naval ship in 1958, by Almiro Barauna, a professional photographer. J. J. Hurtak, Ph.D., writes, " The May 2005, announcement by the Brazilian government and the Brazilian Air Force to officially open their files regarding Extraterrestrial sightings throughout the country, is a major planetary breakthrough! Their files go back to 1954 and reveal that unique aerial sightings were labeled "H Traffic". The release came after pressure from a Brazilian team of experts who insisted on public access to this information. This release is a major first step towards the global recognition of the reality of the existence of Extraterrestrials. A further confirmation of ET life would carry profound consequences first involving a reassessment of astronomy, cosmology, and theology and finally placing the =91mystery of the missing link' within a new perspective. Among the documents released was the May 1986 sighting where 21 objects, some over 300 feet in diameter, were seen on the Brazilian air traffic radar over Rio de Janeiro causing jets to be scrambled. I visited Brazil during this time and was a witness to some of the confidential pictures which I analyzed and can affirm that the event was real. The presence of observed and documented extraterrestrial technology and space movements should reveal a superior intelligence operating in our atmosphere. It should also reveal that these visits are from a wide variety of visiting extraterrestrial races. If they are clearly more advanced, could such superiority be partly due to genetic engineering which created a more functional brain capacity or orders of higher genetic selection? It may also be due to the fact that ET life may have existed in environments that have not been devastated by cataclysms, such as floods and meteorite impacts, allowing tens of thousands if not millions of years of ongoing evolution. A confirmation of ET reality would also mean that no complete answers as to the origin of life could be found on our planet alone, and therefore, we must press onward with findings in the larger planetary and galactic design of intelligent life. The spiritual dimensions of life, however, I believe have been slow to awaken on planet Earth, since in order to become explicit, it requires that our consciousness, rise above the growing circles of family, country and race and finally discover our divine destiny with cosmic cultures. Why the secrecy on the part of the extraterrestrials? Perhaps they realize that we are just now taking our =91baby steps' and are observing us as we awaken into a vast and awesome universe. Other documents suggest a non-benign form of intelligence interested only in their own mineralogical mining and/or private testing of various forms of species' life even at the expense of our own free will.In the end, the release of the documents covering more than 50 years of happenings in one of the largest countries of the world is highly significant at this time of a =91near clash' of civilizations. Perhaps, this will encourage us to practice a cosmic law of love and respect for bio diversity reflected in the spirit of our mother Earth. Snip http://www.keysofenoch.org/html/brazil__eti_reality.html#more Thanks to J. J. Hurtak, Ph.D., Canada sightings and images SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO =96 Paul Shishis writes, "I wanted to share another sighting with you, recently seen and filmed." On June 1, 2005, at 3:10 to 3:15 PM, at my place of work. I witnessed more high flying objects in the clear blue sky. The closer ones are the rare sightings, which I patiently awaited to photograph. I was on break with camera at hand, so I snapped some pictures. The results viewed in the photos give a good description, better than any witness. The first photo I snapped, I used my hand to block the direct sun's rays. The second photo taken at 10:15 AM, showed another kind of steam like white object. These objects appear strange. George, keep up the above excellent work!!!! Paul Shishis CAMBRIDGE, ONTARIO -- It was about 9:15 PM, three friends were fishing on May 27, 2005, when they saw a green light flying in circles. They watched for about five minutes and saw three large triangular shaped crafts, with a center of the circling light. The witness states, "We thought we were going crazy so we stopped a cop and asked him what they were, and he said they are not spot lights, because you would be able to see the light ray." The police officer took off with his lights flashing. We went home and laid on the trampoline and watched it after a while. There was a total of seven witnesses. Thanks to Brian Vike Director TERRACE, BC -- On May 25, 2005, I was sitting outside with my two dogs at 11:15 PM, when I saw a white flying object heading ENE. It was pretty easy to spot and I would estimate that the object was +- 2000 meters up. After thirty seconds the object became very hard to spot, because it decreased its lights considerably to the point that one could only vaguely spot it's round shape. Suddenly there appeared a huge brilliant white light above me only sixty meters away. I would estimate its size at +- 20 meters in width. The object remained stationary for 4 to 5 seconds and disappeared on the spot. Thanks to Brian Vike Director TERRACE, BRITISH COLUMBIA =96 A white ball of light was seen on May 28, 2005, flying overhead and heading northeast at fifteen minutes after midnight. . The object, estimated 4000 meters high, it did not change it's brilliant white appearance. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research http://www.hbccufo.org Mexico photograph GUADALAJARA -- UFO Casebook received a sighting report from Oscar Franco on June 2, 2005. . He reports, "On September 11, 2004, my family and I were visiting Ajijc, Jalisco, Guadalajara and at exactly 4:58 PM, one of the family members yelled that there was something unusual above Chapala Lake. We began to watch the object that looked similar to the planet Saturn and had a hazy area around the craft, like an energy field. The object dipped down, and skimmed across the waters of the lake, and that was when I took five photographs of it before it disappeared. Thanks to =A9 Oscar Franco, and the UFO Casebook online report. UK UFOs spotted BRADFORD, WEST YORKSHIRE -- Monday, May 9, 2005, saw a flurry of UFO sightings in UK. About 9:30 PM, Manchester was at the car park when his encounter occurred."I went out to retrieve my car and saw a strange and pulsating 'object' in the sky above me," Brian reported, "It made no noise. It looked to be very large and was brightly lit and looked like a double cross or # if you prefer. It had red, green and white lights on it." "After watching for half an hour, another similar-looking 'object' glided quite fast but stealthily across the sky beneath the first one. There was also one parked higher up. GUERNSEY in the Channel Islands had a report the same day, at 2 AM, eyewitness Andrea M. reported, "I turned around and saw something and then it was gone. It consisted of bright lights that looked like stars but so bright it didn't seem possible. The lights were two meters (6 feet, 6 inches) apart and in the shape of a flat circle. I would estimate that they were 400 feet (120 meters) above ground." Thanks to UFO Roundup, Vol. 10, # 20, May 18, 2005, Editor: Joseph Trainor "Mysterious Skin" Movie: Human and Alien Close Encounters By Harold Egeln writes, "Sometimes movie makers can bring in a bit of the UFO experience into their films which are not promoted as UFO movies, as what seems to have been done with "Donnie Darko" by director Richard Kelly. In "Darko," although UFO encounters were not mentioned, they seem to have been placed covertly "between the lines," or film frames, either by design or as an subconscious undercurrent on the filmmaker's part. While the popular space movie hits "Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith" shown above by Lucas films, and "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" attract crowds, and with "War of the Worlds" and the space-themed "Shark-Boy," on May 6 a brilliant new movie, "Mysterious Skin" by Gregg Araki based on the 1995 novel by writer Scott Heim, with an overt UFO encounter subplot, has been drawing an enthusiastic audience. And not necessarily a "space movie" crowd at all. Praised by some critics as one of the year's best movies, such as by A.O. Scott in The New York Times the hauntingly beautiful, harshly disturbing and sensitively sophisticated 99-minute film, rated NC-17, bravely revolves around the consequences of the sexual abuse victimization of two eight-year-old boys in Kansas in 1981 by their Little League coach. One is Neil McCormick, played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt (the alien boy in NBC's "Third Rock from the Sun" series). The other is Brian Lackey, played by Brady Corbet (from the "Thunderbirds" and "Thirteen" movies). Both are taken advantage of by Little League coach Heider, played by Bill Sage, who is portrayed as a humanized exploiter attracted to the forbidden. Early on in the movie, two nights after Brian has his first episode of five hours of missing time and a nosebleed after the coach takes him to his home when a baseball game is rained-out; he, his mother and sister witness a huge flying saucer close up. The blue-colored glowing UFO glides silently in the night sky over their yard and house, magically shown in the movie. They are all in awe of this beautiful sighting, which inspires a moment of wonder. And haunts young Brian, influencing his unremembered trauma, making him ponder about a possible connection between the UFO and his missing time episode. snip See entire article http://community- 2.webtv.net/ValSpegeln/CLOSEENCOUNTERSNEWS/ Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:34:13 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:38:27 -0400 Subject: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union Exopolitical Implications of French/Dutch rejection of the European Union Constitution The rejection by voters in <?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />France and the Netherlands of the proposed European Union Constitution on May 29 and June 1, 2005, respectively, carries much exopolitical significance. The defeat means that a 'United States of Europe' as a strategic counterweight to the United States is unlikely to emerge in the near future. See: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/world/3207796 The result is that the European Union will continue to remain a common market with great economic integration and a single currency, but with minimal political cohesion, and even less military integration. The outcome is that NATO will continue as the preeminent military institution and Europe, and the United States will continue to dominate NATO as it has since its formation in 1949. The Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, for example, is an American and it was this issue of who would occupy the highest office in NATO that led to France under General de Gaulle removing itself from the integrated command structure of NATO in 1967 in protest at continued American dominance. The overall result is that the U.S. will continue to dominate European military affairs especially with the integration of former East European states that are strong allies of the U.S. as witnessed in their strong support of the Bush administration's preemptive military action against Iraq. The defeat of the idea of a 'United States of Europe' that could rival the U.S. and be an independent military/political counterweight to it under the leadership of France and Germany means that another way of countering U.S. global dominance will be sought. French political leaders have clearly recognized, at least with the Bush administration's explicit policy of preemptive military action, that the greatest danger to global peace is unrestrained American power that prioritizes national interests over global interests. See: http://www.iiss.org/showdocument.php?docID=3D109 American dominance is likely to be accentuated in the development and deployment of 'exotic technologies' gained through retrieved extraterrestrial vehicles and information revealed by whistleblowers such as Col Phillip Corso in The Day After Roswell (1997). Another retired US Army veteran, Sgt Clifford, persuasively reveals in a book based on official documents gained through FOIA requests (UFOs are Real, 1997), that U.S. military and diplomatic resources are covertly used to gather crashed UFOs and extraterrestrial artifacts around the world in covert programs known as Project Moondust and Project Blue Fly. With the existence of exotic technologies secretly gained through five decades of covert political/military efforts at retrieving downed extraterrestrial vehicles, discovery of extraterrestrial artifacts and agreements with extraterrestrial races, the U.S. is in a position to increasingly dominate global affairs for decades to come. In the view of advanced democratic nations such as France, an unrestrained U.S. superpower that secretly uses its exotic technology to further its global dominance remains a great threat. Without an indigenous European political and military counterweight that is free of American dominance, and has the economic and technological base to develop its own exotic technologies, it is likely that French policy makers will increasingly adopt the view that the most effective restraint on the development, funding and deployment of exotic technologies that threaten global interests is an informed American citizenry. Disclosure of the reality of the UFO phenomenon and truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis that many UFOs are piloted by extraterrestrials from other worlds will do much to bring about greater transparency in how the U.S. manages and deploys the exotic technologies it has gained through its reverse engineering efforts. It can be predicted that with the temporary defeat of a 'United States of Europe' free of American dominance, France will increasingly turn its attention towards more disclosure of information concerning the truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Consequently, I will now briefly review France's historic role in studying UFO sightings and how we might soon see changes in the rate and extent to which France discloses the truth concerning UFOs and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. France and UFO Disclosure France in 1977 created a department within its equivalent of NASA - the CNES (Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales - National Center of Space Studies) to undertake a civilian study of UFO reports. GEPAN (Groupe d'Etudes des Phenomenes Aerospatiaux Non- identifies - Study Group for Unidentified Aerospace Phenomena) was initially well funded and represented a serious scientific investigation of the UFO phenomenon by French scientists. GEPAN was initially headed by Dr. Claude Poher and later headed by Dr Jean Jacques Velasco in 1983. With the closure of Project Blue Book by the US Air Force allegedly due to inconclusive evidence of UFOs cited in the 1969 Condon Report, GEPAN represented continued global public interest in the UFO phenomenon, and the continuing number of UFO sightings that could not be explained. GEPAN was a model for the kind of rigorous scientific study of UFOs supported by prominent U.S. researchers such as Dr Allen Hynek and Dr James MacDonald where a civilian agency such as NASA would be more likely than the US Air Force to do a serious study of the UFO phenomenon. The formation of GEPAN coincided with a United Nations initiative to promote a more coordinated international research into the UFO phenomenon. The initial report by Dr Poher to a CNES scientific committee certainly strengthened the importance of an internationally coordinated study of UFOs where he claimed that in "60% of the cases reported here, the description of this phenomenon is apparently one of a flying machine whose origin, modes of lifting and/or propulsion are totally outside our knowledge". See: http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1626.htm In 1978, the UN General Assembly approved a resolution calling for a UN department to study UFO sightings around the planet. See: http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc902.htm It is not coincidental that France's initiative with GEPAN gave great legitimacy to efforts to establish a UN collection agency for UFO reports. While the UN resolution was passed by a committee vote in 1978, it was never implemented due to lack of major power support. The role of the U.S. in stifling this UN initiative has emerged with FOIA documents detailing telex communications between the State Department and the US representative to the UN (see Clifford Stone, UFOs are Real). The creation of GEPAN was a significant initiative since it would presumably be instrumental in collection of a UFO database not only for France but for most if not all the nearly 30 Francophone countries. In 1988, GEPAN was renamed SEPRA (Service d'Expertise des Phenom=E8nes de Rentrees Atmospheriques - Atmospheric Re-entry Phenomena Expertise Department) and experienced a significant cut back in funding. The mandate of GEPAN/SEPRA became more general with it now studying anomalous atmospheric phenomenon in addition to UFO sightings. The cutback presumably signified a lack of interest in the UFO phenomenon by the French civilian space agency (CNES) which thought that the approximately 5% of UFO sightings that could not be explained didn't warrant the kind of study and resources previously given to GEPAN. The case studies investigated by GEPAN arguably failed to provide the kind of conclusive evidence that would merit CNES investing further resources to French UFO research. In 1999, the French COMETA Report appeared and gave fresh scientific legitimacy to the study of the UFO phenomenon (http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Cometa.htm ). Composed by a group of senior scientists and military officials, the COMETA report emphasized the seriousness of a rigorous scientific investigation of the UFO phenomenon. It made a number of recommendations which included: an expansion of funding and investigations by SEPRA of the UFO phenomenon; establishing a unit at the highest level of government to deliberate on policy aspects of the UFO phenomenon; and establish close diplomatic relations with the U.S. to coordinate a policy response to the UFO phenomenon. For summary of COMETA see: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/aug/m07-012.shtml While the COMETA report was not distributed widely in the English speaking world, it proved to be very popular in the Francophone world and attracted much interest and debate. However, any hope that SEPRA would witness a restoration of the kind of resources and focus it previously enjoyed on its inception was sorely disappointed. Not only did SEPRA fail to have any further resources given to it, but in January 2004, SEPRA experienced a further cut back in funding so that it presently continues in name only with its Director being the sole official responsible for SEPRA. What might have occurred to have caused the cut back of SEPRA at the very time that the COMETA report was advising the opposite? Why was the COMETA report initiated in the first place if its key recommendations were going to be ignored by the French scientific and political community? Was SEPRA merely a public relations exercise as critics earlier contended was the case with the USAF Project Blue Book? One explanation is that the virtual elimination of SEPRA as a functioning department in CNES was done to preempt possible damage by the publication of a book co-authored by its Director, Dr Velasco in April 2004 that concluded in favor both of the reality of the UFO phenomenon and of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. In UFOs .. the Evidence, Velasco was able to draw upon an extensive database of 5800 case studies in the files of SEPRA (13% of which were of 'unknown' origin), and the book promised to have great impact in shaping French public opinion on UFOs. See: http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1627.htm Another explanation to the virtual elimination of SEPRA was confidence by French policy makers at the highest level that France had a vital interest in maintaining a rigid non- disclosure policy concerning UFO reports and the truth behind the extraterrestrial hypothesis. This was likely a result of policy coordination and technology sharing with the U.S., Russia and other major states that made secrecy a price for major states such as France gaining information and technology gained from extraterrestrial artifacts retrieved and discovered around the planet. France thus had much to gain from continued participation in a covert global political system created to coordinate national policy on UFOs and the truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis arguably dated from the World War II era when Nazi Germany came into possession of extraterrestrial technologies. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper-6.htm Central to the French policy of non-disclosure was anticipation of a smooth ratification process of the European Constitution that had been signed on October 29, 2004 after three years of negotiation. The Constitution offered the kind of political centralization that would have enabled France and other major European states to build up a 'United States of Europe' that would be sufficiently independent and powerful to counter the U.S. in the economic and political spheres, and to achieve an independent military force. See: http://www.unizar.es/euroconstitucion/Treaties/Treaty_Const.htm Perhaps more importantly, the coming 'United States of Europe' would give France and other European powers the means by which American dominance in exotic technologies gained through covert projects dealing with downed extraterrestrial material would be at least restrained if not bridged. The rejection of the European Constitution has put on hold these ambitions of a politically integrated Europe, and very likely led to alarm at the highest levels in France that there will not be the emergence of a strategic counterweight to American dominance in exotic technologies. As a consequence, the geo- strategic balance of forces is firmly behind U.S. technological dominance that will continue to expand as the U.S. has the lion's share of extraterrestrial technologies and information retrieved through its network of global agreements and influence. Without a politically powerful and independent 'United States of Europe' to rival and restrain the U.S. in developing and applying exotic technologies, it is likely that French policy makers will decide that it is in France's national interest to promote public awareness of the reality of the UFO phenomenon and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. As the American public becomes aware of the extraterrestrial hypothesis and the exotic technologies gained over the last five decades, there will understandably be a public desire for transparency and accountability in the developing, funding and application of these exotic technologies. Such an eventually will be in the national interest of France and other major nation states since they do not have the means to restrain or bridge the gap between the exotic technologies possessed by the U.S. and the technological base of other major states. Conclusions The rejection of the European Constitution by French and Dutch voters has put indefinitely on hold the French/European dream of an integrated Europe that has one voice in the political arena, and has an independent military force. In the absence of a strategic counter balance to U.S. dominance in the sphere of exotic technologies, it can be predicted that France will move decidedly forward in promoting disclosure of the UFO phenomenon and the truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. This is likely to occur in a number of ways described in the COMETA report. First, reinstating serious financial support for CEPRA. Second, creating an office at the highest political level to coordinate national policies on UFOs and the truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Third, diplomatic relations with the U.S. in public disclosure of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Finally, newer initiatives such as that recently undertaken by the Brazilian Air Force of opening military files on UFO reports to civilian researchers - see: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m22-001.shtml - may be adopted and make possible a coordinated public disclosure campaign that makes the citizenry of France and other major nations aware of the reality of UFOs and truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. The unrestrained use of exotic technologies by the U.S. is an unacknowledged threat to global peace. Major democratic nations such as France who fail to restrain covert U.S. policies through political processes such as the creation of a politically integrated European Union, can be predicted to more vigorously promote public disclosure of UFOs and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. This would acknowledge that an informed US citizenry is best able to restrain U.S. excesses in the development and deployment of exotic technologies. The 'No' vote by French citizens to the proposed European Constitution is likely to have great exopolitical significance. It can be anticipated there may not be much delay in French policy makers making some surprising policy announcements concerning the reality of UFOs and the extaterrestrial hypothesis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:47:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:49:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Velez >BBC Radio Four's >Abduction, Alienation & Reason >Broadcast on Radio 4 - Wed 08 Jun - 21:00 - 30 min. >Sue Nelson tells the story of John E Mack, an eminent Professor >of Psychiatry at Harvard University who was also passionately >interested in the phenomenon of alien abduction. >http://tinyurl.com/dywj3 >[Thanks to Stuart Miller of http://www.uforeview.net for the lead] Hello All, First, a big thank you to Stuart for the lead. Good one! I didn't always agree with John Mack. But, I have always had a very deep respect and appreciation for his expansive intellect, his humane and compassionate soul, and last but certainly not least, his raw courage. Listening to this program put me in touch, once again, with the enormity of his loss. Fortunately, we can still hear his voice and his message. Everyone should take the time to listen to this recording of him. On a more personal note... One of the 'experiencers/abductees' that was being interviewed made a remark that sent chills running up and down my spine. On some psychical level that I cannot describe with words, we are all of us, (the abductees/experiencers) intimately connected to one another somehow. When I hear another 'experiencer/abductee' speak, more often than not, it is my words, my thoughts, the contents of my heart, that comes streaming forth from them. That's how I found out something was going on in the first place! I was floored to hear 'someone else' giving voice to experiences that I was convinced only happened in 'my' head, in my life. How could anybody else describe in such minutia of detail, including the 'sequence' of the events, some of the oddest experiences I had ever had? And all of it connected to UFOs and non-human beings. It blew my mind. As I listened to this BBC program, it happened again. There is a part of the interview where the reporter is asking the abductee about sleep paralysis and what she thought of it as an explanation for our experiences. She gave a brilliant response. You'll have to listen to the program to find out what it was she said. The reason I bring this up at all is because of something she mentioned in closing. She said; I paraphrase... " If I was suffering from a lifetime of sleep paralysis, where did it go then? Myself and other experiencers have stopped having the experiences. If I had sleep paralysis, it would still be going on. We all want to know what happened. Why it suddenly stopped happening." Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather! It has been -years- since I last had an 'abduction encounter/ experience.' Six years ago I parted company with Budd Hopkins, I stopped acting as 'webmaster' to the Intruders Foundation Website, and I cut off all regular contact with the experiencers /abductees that I had met through Budd. In short, except for my involvement over the years with this List, EBK and SDI/VSN I have been 'out of touch' with anything going on in the world of other experiencers. My only point of contact with other abductees was through Budd. I have been wondering, to myself, what happened. Why the UFO and abduction experiences have suddenly stopped happening (the last five to seven years or so) after virtually a _lifetime_ of 'fairly' regular occurrences. EBK asked me about it sometime back. He asked if anything had happened to me or to my family recently. I expressed to him then my curiosity about the apparent and sudden cessation of the abductions in our life. Now, after years of being 'out of touch,' once again I hear my voice, my words coming out of another experiencers mouth. I know this doesn't mean anything to anybody. But it means an a lot to me. To hear her voice speak thew words brought tears to my eyes. It is another confirmation in a long line of confirmations that something real and tangible has happened to my family and me and to _thousands_ of my fellow creatures. We have been ridiculed berated and maligned in every way imaginable by the very people we all have tried to help. You are the reason I 'came out'. You are the reason any of us 'come out' and report. In the name of the truth, because we know we have the truth on our side, we are able to weather the storm of resistance to our reports of what has happened to us and to our loved ones. I'm glad to have this confirmation. It means I can stop worrying about my wife, my children, my grandchildren and the children of people I have come to know and to love as if they were my own. We can be at peace now. That, more than anything else was a major concern to those of us who are parents. I stand with the abductees/experiencers. Come Hell or high water, I stand with them. We speak with the same voice. One Voice. "I am you and you are me, and we are we, and we are all together..." ('I Am The Walrus', John Lennon)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Re: Alien Thinking - Beuche From: Will Beuche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:47:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:52:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Thinking - Beuche >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:36:09 -0400 >Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:36:09 -0400 >Subject: Alien Thinking >Source: BBC News >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4071124.stm >Wednesday, 8 June >Alien Thinking >By Angela Hind >Pier Productions >Not many scientists are prepared to take tales of alien >abduction seriously, but John Mack, a Harvard professor who was >killed in a road accident in north London last year, did. Ten >years on from a row which nearly lost him his job, hundreds of >people who claim they were abducted still revere him. <snip> In addition to Angela Hind's wonderful BBC News website article, and the masterully edited half hour audio documentary, Abduction, Alienation & Reason, which remains available for download on the BBC's "recent broadcasts" website, I also invite you to read a rebuttal to the comments made by the one naysayer on the radio program:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:55:28 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Velez To All, I was writing to a friend privately about the Mexico City sightings and it occurred to me that maybe many of the List's readers are unaware of some basic and important facts. A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is simple... Important fact #1 - The OVNIs may be 'buzzing' Mexico City and putting on this display there because it is the _largest_ city in the whole world. Mexico city has the distinction of being the single largest urban sprawl on the planet! Which brings us to..... Important fact #2 - Jaime Maussan, and Enrique Kolbeck who is an air traffic controller at Mexico City Airport have been warning everyone that the potential for a serious air disaster (because of the presence of the OVNIs) is greater in Mexico city because the airport is _literally_ at the very center of the city. Any air accident in the immediate environs of the airport would involve a tremendous, and horrific loss of life and property. This is serious. _Nobody_ and I mean nobody would screw around releasing 'balloons' near Mexico City airport. (where individuals like Mr. Gil have recorded the OVNIs.) It would be _mass_murder_. That's why the urgency to get the international community to take a look at what is happening in Mexico City. _Before_ any accident occurs. We all need to know what it is we're dealing with. This planet of ours is a small rock. What is happening in Mexico today could easily start happening in London, LA, etc. Let's see if we can't get a few 'serious' people to research this. Let's try to find out just what the Hell these things are. And when I say "we" I mean those of us who haven't 'closed' the case yet. Like I said, this is serious. We have all registered the opinions that we are dealing with birds and balloons at least a hundred times. It's time to stop adding 'noise' to what appears to be a very_strong_ signal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 10 Alfred's Odd Ode #388 From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:22:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:13:39 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #388 Alfred's Odd Ode #388 (June 9, 2005) Shortage, Dearth, and Lack Wilbert Smith has pointed out, we've just a bug's insentience, our senses crawl the lowest limb... presume that tree's pretension... What purpose then this poetry that I might write to you, but saying what cannot be said... except in rhyme, it's true... ...Consider Nostradamus, and the things that he'd write down; if writ in prose these anecdotes would burn him to the ground. But written in a song or verse words stay the torch provided, and people might take pause instead... _before_ they got excited. Now those who think they 'know' me... or suspect I'm insincere? You decide I'm too intense... too strident flogging 'fear'? Well - a pox on trepidation, folks, there's an outrage to consider; we're played for fools; we've been betrayed, cognition's near forbidden! Blogs aplenty tender thoughts of retro-think implosion. They provoke apostasy and thinking's new erosion. They re-revision history or smear fresh thinking proffered, they argue 'nits' and 'throwaways' to keep their terror proper. 'He' pules his smears and charges; 'she' snickers, sneers, and smirks... these are the specious clueless... mere bionic cyber- jerks. They prosecute pathetic plans to keep us in their box, but we're outside their cowardice, we've picked their facile locks! These imply they're scholars, or persons in the show. These provoke the anger that we've lately come to know. These argue their inanities, re-dredge misinformation that's been dismissed as errant crap, without accreditation. These use their erudition to preclude ones living wage. These assassinate the characters of persons they 'debate'. They scare the sponsors they offend, pump fat egos without end, and make themselves the center piece for pompous thought that apes disease. What provokes their sad hysteria? Why... Space, and Time, and Surface Area! Works of Shakespeare _are_ produced by monkeys banging keyboards used. There _is_ 'room' for all which makes their "finest work"... a sad disgrace. They are not the "center jewel"; it's this that makes them lose their cool. These contrive a 'singularity', to themselves! Ribald hilarity! Birds and bolides... falling boosters? If this _is_ all... then _all_ are losers! ...These mere posers, non-propitious, and fearful of that "grand seditious" ...saying "beads" to calm their fear while whistling passed their graveyard bier. These hate the future bearing down, protest too much that _I'm_ the clown, or label me a "crazy loon"... or a "danger" to my fellows? Swoon! Fear the poet? Ain't that strange? Fear the wordsmith "all deranged..." ...Fear he's so far up your nose his boot heels scrub your top lip, Bro! Fear sincerity, off its knees and shaking off your 'shackles', please. You contrive to fill _your_ 'plate' and that's an action of distaste. Let's talk about the petty jibes of errant drones who _must_ connive... to keep their stocks and bonds in place (?) so hold at bay profound disgrace! See them caper and conspire... around their black and oily fire... but _burning_ books thought inconvenient as these expose their faux-achievement. Watch them argue without end, their denial and contrived pretence. Watch them bring up, yet again, mal-issues well divested, friend. Watch them pole-vault tick-turds placed as errant straw-filled men, replaced... they'd decry when used on them; they'll whine that there's no "fair play" then! These _are_ the worst; I must contend. These, not colleague _or_ collegiate friend. Ideologues are what abound, conflicted bastards non-profound. It's these who sell a failing stock... or toil to turn back Bassett's clock! These won't ask the harder question; they just "deny"... is my suggestion. Now all I've ever been is service. To family, nation... no disservice. I have done the hard jobs friend, and done them well... I don't pretend. Others took a different path and served themselves... you do the math... Maybe these won't be he the best to label me in this contest... or judge upon more valid others lest _they're_ judged and _them_ that's smothered. I would fight the good fight, folks, it's all I've ever known, no jokes. Something's in the skies above that 'they'... deny... come push to shove! Know them by their negativity, know them by their cant's proclivity, know them by their lack of that which drives the rest to where it's at! Know them by their fruit, at last. Know them as the spawn of Klass. Know this 'new' guard, fresh-evolved, to keep the status quo involved. These are not progressive men much interested in truth, take ten! These are women _not_ involved with truth, at any cost, resolved. These are persons you don't know... who _hide_ from that which flies and glows... persons with their heads shoved blind in places where the sun won't shine! Point your fingers, please, at me... to feel three gouge back at 'thee'. Ignominy, once looming, lingers, but I account for all my fingers. I'm sincere to your portentous, curious to your conflicted, creative to your constipated, attentive to your... too inflated. I'm a human unrelated to anything that these have stated, and I don't take betrayal well for friends of mine provoked to yell. So, I'm attentive to your actions, curious in your distractions, creative as regards retorts... in song and verse and image... sport. These on Wilbert's "lowest knee" would intimate the whole damn tree. Wilbert Smith is right again... and it won't be the last time... 'friends'. There is more to Earth and heaven than these admit or know, times seven. They're the quislings of our breed, they're consumed with meager needs. These are needs to smirk and preen or prosecute their errant mean. They lack courage, grace and style; these are not our socio-philes. These contrive to take us back... to match _their_ shortage, dearth, and lack.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:31:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:11:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Ledger >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >>Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>You definitely would love to see this: >>http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >>A. J. Gevaerd >Hi A.J. >Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in support of these personal beliefs if it makes certain people feel good as I have good reasons to suspect is the case with some of the more interesting UFO fleet video clips. >If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and instead search for the missing news film footage of three saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C. Marshall (see FSR, July/ August 1979) which I mentioned in an earlier e-mail to you. That's too broad a brush to paint with Nick. You could say that about any video that was shot of a possible UFO. What makes you think this is faked? I had a look at the video. It's odd no doubt. Obviously not birds or balloons or flares. If you have some information on this particular video, share it. If not then making such a broad statement implying a faked video
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Things Keel-ian - Johns From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:48:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:14:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Johns >From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >I would differentiate between the premise I've put forward that >everyone holds to some type of "religion" (that is, >ideology/philosophy/worldview) and those "belief systems" upon >which any particular ideology/philosophy/worldview is based. Religion requires a theological 'leap of faith' in order to justify its own conclusions. Faith is never cetain, else it is knowledge. To confuse Faith and Knowledge is do diminish both. Some of us are not terribly worried about various religious questions. And for some of us, as James said, we are merely presented with non-living options. Philosophy, as a discipline, does not require faith. It only requires reason. Any philosopher worth his weight in salt will know when he has made that logical leap of faith, and he will admit it. Whether one is a deontologist, a utilitarian, or something inbetween, whatever system you believe in was not something you arrived at completely by reasoning. What philosophy does quite well, however, is to break such thinking down into its constituent parts. And if you find yourself making a utilitarian claim on Monday, followed by a deontological claim on Tuesday, expect a philosopher to call you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:34:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:16:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Gevaerd >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >>Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>You definitely would love to see this: >>http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do >respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my >nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in >support of these personal beliefs if it makes certain people >feel good as I have good reasons to suspect is the case with >some of the more interesting UFO fleet video clips. Hi Nick. You say "some". What about the others? Genuine? >If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO >fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the >latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate >Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and >instead search for the missing news film footage of three >saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time >of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C. >Marshall (see FSR, July/ August 1979) which I mentioned in an >earlier e-mail to you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:27:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? <snip> >Whether they come to us from the upper tiers of John Keel's >"superspectrum" or from some other parallel reality, their >activities betray an apparent need for attention that ufology >has been essentially blind to, despite case after case of >"playful" UFO behavior (especially pronounced during aircraft >encounters). Perhaps by engaging our psyche, they pass the >burden of their arrival onto our collective shoulders. >The UFO intelligence seems curiously out of its element, a fact >that should arouse extraordinary suspicion; one would think, >given the time it's had to observe us, it should be thoroughly >familiar with us and able to "pass through" without risking >curious bystanders. But as even a summary examination of the UFO >literature demonstrates, curious bystanders seem to be the whole >point - and therein, I suspect, lies the ultimate identity of our >unlikely guests. Hi Mac Yes indeed! Don't know about "a global quantum event" but you put your finger on the essential strangeness of this business, the thing that has kept me fascinated and baffled since the 1960s. Vallee was (is?) one of the few profound and original thinkers ufology has produced and I was an immediate purchaser of a ticket to Magonia in 1969. To this day I can't shake the feeling that there may be two or three (at least) quite separate things going on here: 1) A UFO phenomenon (or two) at the core of all the lights and things in the sky; 2) a flying saucer phenomenon, which is our mythologised human dramatisation of mystery #1; and 3) another much more profound thing, a deeper and ever-present mystery connected with the nature of our existence, which as it were, dresses up in the thought-forms generated by 1) and 2). This 3rd thing is not intrinsically a myth - it is physical on a level where physics becomes something scarcely recognisable to our rudimentary models - yet it is at once both cause and effect in a feedback loop that couples it dynamically to 1) and 2). We don't know how to separate out these levels in any rigorous way, but we sense that they are there and that the process is doing something to us, or with us, or through us.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:31:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:41:08 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >To All, I guess that includes me. >A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >simple... >Important fact #1 - The OVNIs may be 'buzzing' Mexico City >and putting on this display there because it is the _largest_ city >in the whole world. Mexico city has the distinction of being the >single largest urban sprawl on the planet! Somehow I would think the first place aliens would go would be Las Vegas. After all, the Luxor is shooting a beam of light into the sky every night which can provide enough light for the ISS astronauts to read by. Anyway, UFO "collections" would more likely want to "buzz" Los Angeles or New York since there is a lot of media there and since the US is the media and entertainment capital of the world and since the US has the best military of the world. >_Nobody_ and I mean nobody would screw around releasing >'balloons' near Mexico City airport. (where individuals like >Mr. Gil have recorded the OVNIs.) I think you vastly underestimate the ability of mischief of young people. Anyway, it is not clear yet how the Gil videos were videoed. Maybe some were taken at different days, times, away from the city center. Maybe there are clever hoaxing methods going on which serious "non-armchair" researchers (unlike myself) are going to pains to try to demonstrate. Hats off to these fine folk, they have more patience than I! >It would be _mass_murder_. Oh my God! Yes, teenagers or nut cases do things without caring about consequences. I remember a so called suicide attempt where a guy parked a car on a railroad track but jumped out at the last minute. Too bad for the derailed train and all the dead passengers, but he survived! >That's why the urgency to get the international >community to take a look at what is happening >in Mexico City. _Before_ any accident occurs. We >all need to know what it is we're dealing >with. This planet of ours is a small rock. What is >happening in Mexico today could easily start happening >in London, LA, etc. Relax Mr Velez! If the UFO "collections" are hyper-intelligent, they are likely to avoid ramming into aircraft. Enjoy the display! If the UFO "collections" are balloons, relax, since aircraft engines can ingest birds and not catastrophically fail. So enjoy the display there too! Although your compassion is creditible, it seems that if there WERE an accident due to these things, that would be icing on the cake to getting the public and government attention you sorely crave. >Let's see if we can't get a few 'serious' people to research >this. Let's try to find out just what the Hell these things are. There are these folk, but you won't listen to them because you disagree with their findings and ideas. >And when I say "we" I mean those of us who haven't 'closed' >the case yet. Actually, I think Campeche is closed, but these UFO "collections" are not closed yet. We await the results of some good folk like Amy and Kyle to finish their work. Bravo to them! >Like I said, this is serious. We have all registered >the opinions that we are dealing with birds and balloons at >least a hundred times. It's time to stop adding 'noise' to what
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Any News On Tracking Abductees? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:44 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:57 -0400 Subject: Any News On Tracking Abductees? Just wondering if anyone's got an update on tracking abductees? I'd heard of tracking devices placed on them but hadn't heard of any results. If any please forward.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:45:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:34:13 -1000 >Subject: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Europ-Union >Exopolitical Implications of French/Dutch rejection of the >European Union Constitution <snip> I'm so sorry that the voters of France and the Netherlands have scuppered Mr Salla's plans. I suppose they were voting on matters such as economic growth, the euro, taxation, national independence, industrial policy, law, immigration and other such trivialities, rather than important fantasy issues like exopolitical whistle blowers. I can hardly wait for the British referendum (if Tone lets us have one) when we will also have the opportunity to vote yes to UFO disclosure, courtesy of M. Chirac.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:47:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:49:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs - Velez >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:14:56 -0600 >Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:28:44 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Humanoids At Faded Discs >>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:48:59 -0600 >>>Subject: Humanoids At Faded Discs >>>Volume 13 in the Audio History of Ufology Project is available >>>to researchers. <snip> Hiya Wendy, You wrote: >I will be unavailable for awhile due to surgery tomorrow. >However, I shall return with more compilations of the audio >history of Ufology once I mend. Godspeed Wendy! I hope they fix what ails ya, and then a speedy recovery afterwards. Look forward to having you back shortly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:38:51 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:52:15 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City <snip> >A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >simple... >Important fact #1 - The OVNIs may be 'buzzing' Mexico City and >putting on this display there because it is the _largest_ city >in the whole world. Mexico city has the distinction of being the >single largest urban sprawl on the planet! Greetings John! If those OVNIs seen over Mexico City are indeed piloted by aliens who are not from here, we can forgive them if their knowledge of Earth geography is not much better than the average American's. According to the first web site I visited (see URL below), Mexico City does have a very large population but it ranks in 12th place after Buenos Aires and Moscow and is closely followed by New York City. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762524.html If the population density (PD) is the criteria, then Paris with over 24,400 people per square kilometer (/km2) and New York City and Moscow each with about 10,300/km2 far exceed Mexico City's 5,800/km2 which is closer to the PD of Canada's largest city Toronto at 3,900/km2 (see URL below). The PD for Manhatten, not far from where you have had your own OVNI sightings, is over 25,800/km2. http://tinyurl.com/e223f Maybe the answer for why fleets of OVNIs are putting on displays over Mexico City is not as simple as you claim. >Which brings us to..... >Important fact #2 - Jaime Maussan, and Enrique Kolbeck who is an >air traffic controller at Mexico City Airport have been warning >everyone that the potential for a serious air disaster (because >of the presence of the OVNIs) is greater in Mexico city because >the airport is _literally_ at the very center of the city. Any >air accident in the immediate environs of the airport would >involve a tremendous, and horrific loss of life and property. >This is serious. >_Nobody_ and I mean nobody would screw around releasing >'balloons' near Mexico City airport. (where individuals like Mr. >Gil have recorded the OVNIs.) >It would be _mass_murder_. <snip> Balloons are enjoyed and used by people all over the world for birthdays, for celebration of national holidays and just for fun. Unlike fireworks, there are no restrictions on the sale of helium filled balloons, even to those living in cities like Toronto or New York City with busy airports nearby. Maybe there should be... Check out the news story (see URL below) about such a very irresponsible release of helium balloons in Mexico City that triggered traffic gridlock as drivers stopped to view what they thought were OVNIs. http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ufomex.htm The simple fact that nearly all of the recent video clips of UFO fleets over Mexico were observed and recorded by a single witness suggests, to me at least, that the vast majority of Mexicans can distinquish between OVNIs and birds/balloons or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:14:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:53:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:40:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:14:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos ><snip> >>Thanks to the kindness of someone on the List, I was sent a >>video cassette featuring reporter/speaker Jaime Maussan which >>includes extensive footage of the "UFOs" taken with a FLIR video >>camera from an airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft as well as an >>assortment of Mexican "UFO Fleet" video clips, both very recent >>and from the past. I will refrain from sharing my own >>observations and comments until after some associates who are >>better qualified to evaluate the contents in this video cassette >>have had a chance to view it. I can report on their analysis as >>soon as I get it. >I presume your reference to "a FLIR vieo camera from and >airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft" refers to the FLIR video of >March 5, 2004 which became public knowledge in April or May >2004? >If you are having that analyzed by "some associates" I will be >interested to find out what they do in the way of analysis and >their results. Hi Bruce! I have already sent out several first generation copies of the entire video cassette (over one hour in total length including the Mexican UFO fleet video clips) to people who have the necessary training and experience to properly evaluate it. I am now waiting to hear from them and once I do, I will share what they have to say with everyone. The clips in the video cassette I was sent shows that the alleged UFOs, as recorded by the FLIR camera, had altitude values that would place them at or just below the horizon. This fact reminded me of a similar UFO experience I had from a mountain top with a string of unexplained lights straight ahead of me that I thought were in the sky above the distant horizon. Since I was on a mountain top and the horizon was not visible that clear dark night, I naturely assumed that the horizon would be a little below the string of lights. You can read below in an e-mail that was posted on UFO UpDates how even someone with much training in astronomy and optics can be fooled. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m27- 014.shtml Since light is refracted or bent more at the horizon than it is at higher elevations and we are all familiar with the flattened and sometimes layered images of the Sun and Moon when they are setting, the similar appearance of a couple of the brighter UFOs suggested to me that they too were distant distorted ground level objects at the horizon rather than aerial objects much closer to the Mexican airplane. With so many video cameras out there and lots of people taking the time to play and familiarize themselves with these, it is not surprising when many people make discoveries of UFOs, or at least what seem to be UFOs to them. One example of such a "UFO" is the stationary star-like object that was captured on video by Paul Cohen in Coconut Creek, Florida earlier this year (see URL below). Although I do not know enough about where exactly in the sky Paul pointed his camera, from what he captured with his zoom camera and what he stated, I suspect this is just another case of Venus (or another bright planet or star) being mistaken for a stationary UFO in the daytime sky. http://www.atzilut.com/ufo/index.html Many have noticed the Moon in the sky together with the Sun and many more have seen bright planets and stars appearing in the sky just after the Sun has set or before it has risen but very few have ever seen bright planets and stars during the day when the Sun is high in the sky. If you know where to look, you can spot some of the brighter objects with the naked eye but most people use binoculars - and now video cameras. We have been so overwhelmed by reports of distant and indistinct spots in the sky, many recorded by video cameras, that can easily and reasonably be explained as brids, balloons (or even bright planets and stars) that we risk overlooking important and truly weird UFO sightings that can advance our understanding of UFO phenomona (plural) - or even worse, giving the impression to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:24:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:58:07 -0400 Subject: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? This story released on June 8, 2005 at Rense website is now also on Coast to Coast, UFO Casebook and maybe others. It seems that Mr. Brian Bessent has been busy promoting this video in order to sell the DVD Signs from the Sky, a recollection of several UFO videos from different sources that has been around for sometime. According to Mr. Bessent's testimonial he videotaped this sighting along with a friend the night of June 5, 2005 in Phoenix, AZ. After I read the article on wednesday June 8 the images resulted somehow familiar to me. I knew I have seen them before so I checked the Signs from the Sky website and there it was, the amazing UFO from Phoenix on display along with the other videoclips included in the DVD. This resulted disconcerting so I checked the date of the webpage in Google using the cache and I found the date as May 28, 2005. This is the info: This is Google's cache of http://www.ufotheatre.com/signs.htm as retrieved on 28 May 2005 16:11:39 GMT. Now I ask Mr. Brian Bessent how is it posible that he videotaped this UFO over Phoenix last Sunday June 5 when the same video was on display in the Signs from the Sky webpage since May? Certainly confusing. I sent a message to Mr. Bessent asking him to comment about this issue and to clear the confusion with the dates and his testimonial. I have not received any reply yet. However Mr. Bessent made a quick update to the Signs from the Sky website taking away the images of the mentioned UFO from Phoenix and replacing them with other ones from other sources. This was done between the night of wednesday June 8 and the morning of June 9. However Mr. Bessent forgot that Google keeps a cache of the webpages so the evidence is still there for all of you to check. What is the mystery behind this footage? Why Brian Bessent is releasing this story even that he knows the video was on display since May 2005? Is Bessent willing to come forward and explain these inaccuracies? I don't know if the footage is real or a fake but I have serious doubts about it. I understand Brian Bessent lives in Texas and runs a company named PYRAMEDIA. He is also webmaster of the UFO Theatre and sells the DVD Signs from the Sky. This case is spreading quickly while the contradiction remains there still unanswered by Mr. Bessent. Therefore I ask him again: Who took this video, on what date and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Birds Are UFO's? - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:48:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:59:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Birds Are UFO's? - Hebert >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:32:09 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? >>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:18:06 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? <snip> >Of course you did'nt know anything about this, right Amy? >Surely not, as you are so far from Mexico and don't know anything >happening here. Therefore you just invent things and make false >statements like "nothing of this nature as yet been presented >for peer review". This is certainly cheap talk. Of course I don't watch Mexican TV, I live in the US - don't get that channel on cable. But I wasn't referring to any alleged evidence presented on Mexican TV, I was referring to what's been said right here on the UpDates List and what evidence has been presented. If you present your claims here then you should also present your evidence here as we all can't run to Mexico to watch TV. I wasn't inventing anything, just stating the obvious. >I'm ready to send you or anyone who desires a videoclip to >choose from seven I prepared or even the seven containing >these Ballon-UFO discussions on Mexican television where Jaime >Maussan presents these balloons to comment with the panel the >diferences with UFOs. I would love to see these discussions, images and video footage of balloons. How do you wish to send them? And, as I indicated in my last post, I'd also like to review a copy of the April 11, 2005 UFO video by Arturo Robles Gil and all the other "fleets of UFO's over Mexico" videos - full length, unedited, uncut, unenhanced. Can you send me a copy of these, pretty please? <snip> >I have not visited the webpage with the videos posted by John >but I see that you want identification on the clips right? I'll >check the clips and I can give you all the information you are >requesting, no problem at all. However I wonder if your position >will change once you get these informations. Why does my "position" have to change? I just find it odd that video footage you attributed to Arturo Robles Gil is now being presented without his name attached or any other information that should be included when presenting alleged UFO footage. Why, all of a sudden, is his name and other information being left out of the picture (in John's presentation)? Would this not distance the original footage from the creator/photographer? Why would anyone want to separate the footage from the photographer? Does this not infringe on the copy rights of Mr.Arturo Robles Gil? I would greatly appreciate you providing the names of the photographers, locations and dates for each of the video clips in John's presentation at: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/mexovni.html Hopefully, John will add these details to his presentation when he has time. >It seems to me that you still have this kind of fixation on >Mr. Robles Gil, as you keep asking so many mixed questions about >him. All right I'll check the clips posted by John and I'll give >you the answers. Fixation? Seems to me if I were Arturo Robles Gil I would be quite offended if someone had posted footage I created/filmed on the internet and didn't include my name as the copyright owner. I await your answers here, on the list, for all to see. We need to publicly credit Mr. Gil for his work since it is so blatantly absent in John's presentation. <snip> >So please don't be naive trying to imply those issues are >necesary to justify a case, they certainly may help to establish >conditions but the evidence on tape is the main issue. So don't >try to be smart with me here. I wasn't _trying_ to be smart, Santiago. It comes natural. All details, including the video footage, must be taken into consideration and evaluated as a whole. If we focus only on what's in the video footage, we may ignore other important factors that are just as important as the images on tape. >You say you are going to provide all of us videos with >comparisons among birds-balloons and UFOs? Videos that you >collected over years of research? Then I challenge you to >present these videos along with information about who >took which videos, where, when, types of cameras used, model, >zoom capability, wind speed and direction, cloud bases, >temperature, barometric pressure, visibility, balloon launches >for the dates and times in question - if this was investigated, >please cite sources contacted - exact lengths of each video, any >breaks in filming sequences, etc. Gladly, after you. Not sure why you would want all this information for IFO's - you know, as in _identified_ flying objects. These types of information are what you collect when investigating UFO's and especially alleged UFO footage. If you knew anything about
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Things Keel-ian - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:23:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:03:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Lehmberg >From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:48:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>I would differentiate between the premise I've put forward that >>everyone holds to some type of "religion" (that is, >>ideology/philosophy/worldview) and those "belief systems" upon >>which any particular ideology/philosophy/worldview is based. >Religion requires a theological 'leap of faith' in order to >justify its own conclusions. Faith is never cetain, else it is >knowledge. To confuse Faith and Knowledge is do diminish both. >Some of us are not terribly worried about various religious >questions. And for some of us, as James said, we are merely >presented with non-living options. >Philosophy, as a discipline, does not require faith. It only >requires reason. Any philosopher worth his weight in salt will >know when he has made that logical leap of faith, and he will >admit it. Whether one is a deontologist, a utilitarian, or >something inbetween, whatever system you believe in was not >something you arrived at completely by reasoning. >What philosophy does quite well, however, is to break such >thinking down into its constituent parts. And if you find >yourself making a utilitarian claim on Monday, followed by a >deontological claim on Tuesday, expect a philosopher to call you >on your hypocrisy. Good one, Sir, moreover... "Untested faith is valuless."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:37:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:14:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? <snip> >>The UFO intelligence seems curiously out of its element, a fact >>that should arouse extraordinary suspicion; one would think, >>given the time it's had to observe us, it should be thoroughly >>familiar with us and able to "pass through" without risking >>curious bystanders. But as even a summary examination of the UFO >>literature demonstrates, curious bystanders seem to be the whole >>point - and therein, I suspect, lies the ultimate identity of our >>unlikely guests. >Yes indeed! Don't know about "a global quantum event" but you put >your finger on the essential strangeness of this business, the >thing that has kept me fascinated and baffled since the 1960s. >Vallee was (is?) one of the few profound and original thinkers >ufology has produced and I was an immediate purchaser of a ticket >to Magonia in 1969. <snip> Hello Mac and Martin: Mac: As a nut-and-bolts kind of guy, I wonder if part of the 'fish-out-of-water' behavior of UFO 'entities' might not rise from a robotic / cybernetic nature; i.e. automatons sent to do some scientific dirty work. It that idea has any merit, then much or most of our behavior would be as incomprehensible as former president Clinton playing the saxophone in public. Martin: I am deeply impressed with the intellect of Jacques Vallee. Unlike others who question his more recent works suggesting dimensional (or whatever) anomalies, I find him a powerful thinker despite some technical differences. Naturally I favor his earlier works which read more closely to my own ideas, but he cannot be dismissed out of hand. Vallee was one of the first, if not the very first, to computerize UFO sightings, trying squeeze some hidden patterns from the data. He gently criticized Aime Michele for his 'orthoteny' mapping, pointing out possible sources of error in that work. I wish I could show Michel my maps! But he is gone. Gentleman that he is, Vallee also filled me with free red wine (his wife provided sandwiches) so maybe I'm prejudiced. Its almost a joy to disagree with a kind and intelligent man. I wish there were more Vallees and fewer idiots. BTW: Regarding wines, JV investigated a sighting over some vineyard not far from here in Northern California. As a follow- up he tested/tasted the wine itself some months/years later. He found nothing noteworthy, just cheap red stuff. No mention of oak, or tannins, no crap about chocolate or dogs and cats .. he simply said it was 'unremarkable'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Freeman From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:57:28 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:17:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Freeman >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:47:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four <snip> >There is a part of the interview where the reporter is asking >the abductee about sleep paralysis and what she thought of it as >an explanation for our experiences. She gave a brilliant >response. You'll have to listen to the program to find out what >it was she said. The reason I bring this up at all is because of >something she mentioned in closing. She said; >I paraphrase... >" If I was suffering from a lifetime of sleep paralysis, where >did it go then? Myself and other experiencers have stopped >having the experiences. If I had sleep paralysis, it would still >be going on. We all want to know what happened. Why it suddenly >stopped happening." >Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather! <snip> >I have been wondering, to myself, what happened. Why the UFO and >abduction experiences have suddenly stopped happening (the last >five to seven years or so) after virtually a_lifetime_of >'fairly' regular occurrences. EBK asked me about it sometime >back. He asked if anything had happened to me or to my family >recently. I expressed to him then my curiosity about the >apparent and sudden cessation of the abductions in our life. >Now, after years of being 'out of touch,' once again I hear my >voice, my words coming out of another experiencers mouth. >I know this doesn't mean anything to anybody. But it means an a >lot to me. To hear her voice speak thew words brought tears to >my eyes. It is another confirmation in a long line of >confirmations that something real and tangible has happened to >my family and me and to_thousands_of my fellow creatures. We >have been ridiculed berated and maligned in every way imaginable >by the very people we all have tried to help. <snip> John, EBK and List, Well, it certainly means something to me. When living on Long Island back in the late 1980's, I can't tell you how many times I would experience a paralysis, which may or may not have been sleep paralysis, but was a regular occurrence. It may or may not have been related to the other abduction related 'happenings' that also occurred during that period of time. This all happened during a time span of about two and a half years or so. With the exception of the paralysis happening once again while in New Mexico about six years ago, not once has anything similar occurred since I moved down here to Florida almost fifteen years ago. There's not a day that goes by when I don't wonder why I experienced all of that on Long Island, and absolutely nothing like it since being here in Florida. I have had other kinds of experiences here in Florida, and I have to wonder if these are in any way related to what had happened to me while on Long Island. What you have said in your post is amazing, because they are similar to the thoughts that run through my mind most of the time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 11 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? ><snip> >>Whether they come to us from the upper tiers of John Keel's >>"superspectrum" or from some other parallel reality, their >>activities betray an apparent need for attention that ufology >>has been essentially blind to, despite case after case of >>"playful" UFO behavior (especially pronounced during aircraft >>encounters). Perhaps by engaging our psyche, they pass the >>burden of their arrival onto our collective shoulders. >>The UFO intelligence seems curiously out of its element, a fact >>that should arouse extraordinary suspicion; one would think, >>given the time it's had to observe us, it should be thoroughly >>familiar with us and able to "pass through" without risking >>curious bystanders. But as even a summary examination of the UFO >>literature demonstrates, curious bystanders seem to be the whole >>point - and therein, I suspect, lies the ultimate identity of our >>unlikely guests. >Yes indeed! Don't know about "a global quantum event" but you put >your finger on the essential strangeness of this business, the >thing that has kept me fascinated and baffled since the 1960s. >Vallee was (is?) one of the few profound and original thinkers >ufology has produced and I was an immediate purchaser of a ticket >to Magonia in 1969. Martin, Your discourse strikes me again as avoiding skilfully the hard core of ufology i.e. the ET presence, and its great "Defense significance" among other things. See for instance the book "Faded Giant" of Robert Salas and James Klotz, on the 1967 Missile/UFO incidents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:23:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:23:58 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Allan >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >To All, >I was writing to a friend privately about the Mexico City >sightings and it occurred to me that maybe many of the List's >readers are unaware of some basic and important facts. >A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >simple... >Important fact #1 - The OVNIs may be 'buzzing' Mexico City and >putting on this display there because it is the _largest_ city >in the whole world. Mexico city has the distinction of being the >single largest urban sprawl on the planet! See below about city sizes. >Which brings us to..... >Important fact #2 - Jaime Maussan, and Enrique Kolbeck who is an >air traffic controller at Mexico City Airport have been warning >everyone that the potential for a serious air disaster (because >of the presence of the OVNIs) is greater in Mexico city because >the airport is _literally_ at the very center of the city. Any >air accident in the immediate environs of the airport would >involve a tremendous, and horrific loss of life and property. >This is serious. >_Nobody_ and I mean nobody would screw around releasing >'balloons' near Mexico City airport. (where individuals like Mr. >Gil have recorded the OVNIs.) >It would be _mass_murder_. If the risks are as you say, is it mass murder for the airlines to be flying into or out of Mexico City airport? Are the airlines aware of the possibility of collision with a UFO? Do they publish such warnings in their in-flight literature? >That's why the urgency to get the international community to >take a look at what is happening in Mexico City. _Before_ any >accident occurs. We all need to know what it is we're dealing >with. This planet of ours is a small rock. What is happening in >Mexico today could easily start happening in London, LA, etc. >Let's see if we can't get a few 'serious' people to research >this. Let's try to find out just what the Hell these things are. >And when I say "we" I mean those of us who haven't 'closed' the >case yet. Like I said, this is serious. We have all registered >the opinions that we are dealing with birds and balloons at >least a hundred times. It's time to stop adding 'noise' to what >appears to be a very_strong_ signal. My atlas (pub. 2003) gives Mexico City a population of some 15.6 million, New York 21.2m, LA 16.3m, Shanghai 15.0m, Kolkata (Calcutta) 13.2m, Bombay (Mumbai) 16.3m, Delhi 12.7m, Tokyo 17.9m, Paris 11.1m, Sao Paulo 10.4m, Buenos Aires 10.9m. Even if these figures are stretched a little (where do city boundaries end these days?), should not these other large cities be getting their share of UFOs? If not, why not? In the early days, as I recall, UFOs seemed, according to the writers of the time, to concentrate more on the remote regions and the rural areas so as not to be seen too closely and by too many people. Presumably the ETs have now changed their methodology and decided to appear over large cities and thus risk mid-air collisions with terrestrial aircraft. Or is there another explanation for the recent Mexico City UFO deluge?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Sanderson In Retrospect - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:38:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:28:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Sanderson In Retrospect - Shell >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:15:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: Sanderson In Retrospect [was: John Keel Demolished] >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:53:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: John Keel Demolished >Jerry, >Which "batty notion"? Sanderson discusses many "notions" but his >primarily concern is that UFO researchers are overlooking the >simplest explanation for the sky and water anomalies that modern >humans are experiencing. His notion is that these creatures have >evolved here and now live under the ocean. >>which reads as if written by an entertaining raconteur deep in his >>cups and playing amusing liquidated thought games, with anything >>so noble as "theory," but I love Sanderson because of one line >>in that crank classic. >If idiosyncratic writing styles were eliminated from the UFO >literature, there wouldn't be much left to read. While it may be >a "crank classic", it's filled with astute observations and >excellent research. Maybe you could specify your objections to >the factual material. Yes, I'd like to see that as well. Ivan was certainly idiosyncratic, but as you note, so are many others who have put their feet into this pond. I may be the only one on this List who knew Ivan personally, and I had a great regard for the man. He had been a field collector for the British Museum, a job which took him to all sorts of out-of-the- way places. When I met him I was a young zoologist just recently hired on the staff of the Smithsonian Institution, and avidly interested in cryptozoology (although that name didn't exist at the time). I was angry and frustrated that the rest of the staff were so closed-minded about things. I had considered science as a quest to find and understand new things, and they weren't the slightest bit interested in anything that wasn't cut and dried. My disenchantment ultimately led to me leaving formal science to make my livelihood as a photographer/writer. I considered Ivan the epitome of what a scientist should be. Although I never met him face to face, I also knew Bernard Heuvelmans in those days, and carried on a lengthy correspondence with him about various cryptids. I still have all of those letters and photographs that he sent me. Ivan made the introduction to him as he did to many others in the field at the time. It may have been Ivan who first put me in touch with Brad Steiger (Olaf), and I sort of recall that this somehow led to my meeting Robert Anton Wilson, who became a good friend. >>He opined that an alien race might be "overcivilized, and quite >>mad." >Yes, and here is something we agree on. It's a start. Well, madness is in the mind of the beholder. They may well seem completely mad by our standards and viewpoint. I think we must agree that our desires and goals mean nothing to them. They seem to have about as much respect for us as a drug researcher has for his white mice. >>When I quoted that line once to a prominent Fortean friend, he >>cracked that this was a pretty good description of Sanderson, too. >But you've skirted my assertion so I'll restate it: I seems >counter productive for Ufologists to theorize other dimensions, >or time travel or ETH (star folk) or demons to explain the >phenomena happening in our sky and oceans, while ignoring >convergent evolution; and to be more specific, the creature in >the Santilli Alien Autopsy. Old Occam might well have thought this the more likely explanation. The problem I have with this is the six fingers and toes. Terrestrial vertebrates settled on five very early in our evolutionary tree. They may have lost digits with time, like horses have done, but I know of no example of a digit being added. With the AA films, we have two creatures with perfectly formed hands and feet with six digits. If you look at photos of polydactyl humans, you'll see that perfectly formed sixth digits are quite rare. The sixth digit is usually deformed and useless. You can tell that these guys could use all six fingers just fine. Could they be examples of convergent evolution? If so, they'd not come from our evolutionary tree at all, but perhaps to a much earlier one which, except for them, was destroyed by some planetary cataclysm .
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:14:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:32:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? ><snip> >Yes indeed! Don't know about "a global quantum event" but you put >your finger on the essential strangeness of this business, the >thing that has kept me fascinated and baffled since the 1960s. >Vallee was (is?) one of the few profound and original thinkers >ufology has produced and I was an immediate purchaser of a ticket >to Magonia in 1969. >To this day I can't shake the feeling that there may be two or >three (at least) quite separate things going on here: >1) A UFO phenomenon (or two) at the core of all the lights and >things in the sky; >2) a flying saucer phenomenon, which is our mythologised human >dramatisation of mystery #1; and >3) another much more profound thing, a deeper and ever-present >mystery connected with the nature of our existence, which as it >were, dresses up in the thought-forms generated by 1) and 2). >This 3rd thing is not intrinsically a myth - it is physical on a >level where physics becomes something scarcely recognisable to >our rudimentary models - yet it is at once both cause and effect >in a feedback loop that couples it dynamically to 1) and 2). >We don't know how to separate out these levels in any rigorous >way, but we sense that they are there and that the process is >doing something to us, or with us, or through us. Martin The first two on your list are clear enough, but I am not sure what you mean by the third or by "thought forms". You aren't going down the road of Scott Rogo's The Phenomenon, or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Things Keel-ian - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:01:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:38:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:23:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>To: UFO Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:55:55 -0500 >>Subject: Things Keel-ian >>In regard to the continuing discussion regarding the John Keel- >>ian "ultraterrestrial" concept, I feel compelled to throw my >>two-cents-worth in, as it were. >>I have concerns at several levels, but I'll address only one, >>the seemingly vitriolic disparaging of "religion". >>I share with Dick Hall a background not only in philosophy but >>theology (the study of God through his self-revelation and the >>application of logic and reason-not to be confused with >>religion) as well. I contend that even those who speak >>sneeringly regarding "religion" are just as guilty of holding to >>one (a religion) as the most fervent "believer" of any stripe >>you may choose. >There are many issues my old friend Ray Boeche raises that I >take issue with but that I will let pass, since I make it a >point not to argue religion. >I do, however, respect him for coming from an explicitly >religious point of view, which means - though it seems to me >that he's defined religion so broadly as to render the word >nebulous enough to denote just anything, up to and including its >antithesis - that you can take it or leave it on those grounds, >in other words as Ray's expression of Ray's faith, impervious to >falsification. >In fact, Ray's sweeping definition aside, I think we know he is >a conservative Christian - and, I suspect, from some of his >suggestive political references, from which wing of which >American political party he is coming. Not, I might add, my own. >I am not opposed to religion; to the contrary, I happen to be a >churchgoer and consider faith matters, to which I devote regular >reflection, a legitimate part of life. I don't, however, think >that religion has proven to be in any sense a reliable guide to >understanding the natural world. Nor should we expect it to be. >I don't expect to hear scientific wisdom from my parish priest, >and I suspect he'd be shocked if he thought I did. >Religion has its domain, which is the spiritual and moral life >(though of course one doesn't have to be religious to be moral >or even, I suppose, "spiritual" in some secular sense). Faith >cannot help us explain what happens in nature - except inasmuch >as faith can be employed to "explain" anything we want it to, to >our own if not to others' satisfaction - and anomalies, however >strange, happen in nature. No one has ever demonstrated that >anomalies are things that somehow exist outside nature and thus >are immune to scientific unraveling. Actually, as science >progresses, things that once seemed to be anomalies have been >explained and understood, either as something relatively trivial >or as something significant. In either case, not only did they >not invalidate the scientific method, they proved its efficacy >in uncovering even difficult and elusive secrets. >"Demons", whatever the hell (so to speak) they are supposed to >be, aren't even spoken of in all religious traditions, and they >have essentially vanished from some (mainstream Christianity, >for example) in which they once played a role. To many religious >people they are a useless explanation even in spiritual >contexts, much less as dynamic forces of nature which - we >apparently are asked to believe - possess the capacity to show >up on radar screens and leave landing traces. >What the supernaturalists want us to believe is that because >UFOs and other anomalous phenomena are difficult to understand >and appear deeply strange, therefore only faith and notions >derived from some people's idea of it can address them, and >reason (including science and logic), however loosely applied, >has no role to play except where, here and there, it can be >hijacked to serve faith-based supernaturalism (it covers to me >that I'm describing the Intelligent Design movement). I have >spent my life studying the anomalous, and nothing has ever led >me to believe anything of the sort, even for a second. >On the other hand, if you want to validate the longtime >pelicanist charge that anomalistics thinly covers a retreat from >reason and is in truth a new faith, by all means take up demons >by that or any other name. That galloping sound you hear, >however, will be from my feet fleeing the church as rapidly as >they will carry this old Fortean. Jerry and folks The British courts will soon have to start making decisions about what constitutes a religion, when or if Tory Blah passes his don't be nasty to religion Act. One consequence of this would be that the first Sherlock Holmes story might be banned because it could inspire hatred against Mormons. Once you start invoking non-human intelligences to explain anomalous experiences you can't really make more than semantic differences between them. For example there is less difference between angels and demons and ufologists and CETI enthusiasts ET's than you might think. Medieval and early modern theologians would not have regarded angels and devils as supernatural (at least not in the strong sense of being outside the whole natural order; they were seen as created, rational beings higher up the great chain of being, which stretched from minerals at the bottom to God at the top, than man. This meant they had more powerful capacities and intellects than man, which in turn meant they could penetrate more deeply into nature's secrets and thus manipulate nature to perform wonders or apparent wonders, but only God is supernatural. Ufologists and CETIzens envisage ETs as being rational, evolved beings that are further along a dynamic great chain of being, as being _more evolved_ than humans. Both see evolution not as a Darwinian bush with loads of branches and twigs going in all directions but as a ladder or escalator with _primeval slime_ at the bottom, and, on earth, with someone looking a lot like Carl Sagan at the top. The ETs are thus presented as being further up the ladder, as advanced upon man as man is upon the oyster might be one way of putting it. Being further up the ladder of evolution the ETs have penetrated more deeply into nature's secrets and can manipulate nature to perform wonders or apparent wonders. You see the similarities. It's true that angels and devils were generally (but not incontestably) thought of as purely spiritual beings, but then ET's are sometimes portrayed as having essentially left the mortal sphere behind. Both are assumed perhaps to manifest in shapes and images human beings can relate to. In some ways the ETs are granted more powers than angels and devils ever were; it would have been heresy to believe, with Frank Drake, that the angels could give out the key to immortality, and to believe with Budd Hopkins that devils could pull you through solid walls would probably have been regarded as rank superstition. Anyone looking through these updates can see ufology is a religion for many people. Its a religion based on personal 'wondrous experiences' which are seen as evidences for the existence of a transmundane realm populated by suprahuman intelligences. If people like me come up with 'mundane' explanations for some of these experiences we are looked upon as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Things Keel-ian - Boeche From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:28:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:52:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Boeche >From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:48:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>I would differentiate between the premise I've put forward that >>everyone holds to some type of "religion" (that is, >>ideology/philosophy/worldview) and those "belief systems" upon >>which any particular ideology/philosophy/worldview is based. >Religion requires a theological 'leap of faith' in order to >justify its own conclusions. Faith is never cetain, else it is >knowledge. To confuse Faith and Knowledge is do diminish both. >Some of us are not terribly worried about various religious >questions. And for some of us, as James said, we are merely >presented with non-living options. >Philosophy, as a discipline, does not require faith. It only >requires reason. Any philosopher worth his weight in salt will >know when he has made that logical leap of faith, and he will >admit it. Whether one is a deontologist, a utilitarian, or >something inbetween, whatever system you believe in was not >something you arrived at completely by reasoning. >What philosophy does quite well, however, is to break such >thinking down into its constituent parts. And if you find >yourself making a utilitarian claim on Monday, followed by a >deontological claim on Tuesday, expect a philosopher to call you >on your hypocrisy. I'm unsure at what point Shane Johns is in disagreement with me. I do, however, recognize that he has made a fundamental mistake in asserting that acceptance of a system of philosophy is dependent only upon reason. He is, however, absolutely right in reaffirming the point I made that "religion" requires a leap of fatih. One must place faith in _something_ foundational which acts as the support for _any_ belief system. In fact, when one ventures from Cartesian approaches to philosophy into, for instance non-Cartesian cognitive science, one is taking an enormous leap away from reason and into the realm of nothing but faith. In simplistic terms, when one posits an observer-dependent universe (the non-Cartesian approach), one is divorcing oneself from reality, and making _everything_ ultimately subjective to the observer. Thus, the fundamental Aristotelian syllogism which allows for the existence of objective absolute truth, the Law of Non- contradiction, is cast aside. Basically, Aristotle said that something cannot be, and not be in the same way at the same time. Thus, we know that of the two statements 2 + 2 = 4 and 2 + 2 = 5, one _must_ be false. The non-Cartestian, again in simplistic terms, would say that while 2 + 2 = 4 may be true for you, when _I _observe it, 2 + 2 = 5. If that doesn't require faith, I don't know what does. That leap into pure subjectivism is absolutely dependent on the observer's faith in him or her self. I would also point out that Shane is mistaken on his interpretation of the method at which I arrived at acceptance of my own belief system. There is no _more_ of a leap of faith or less of a _well- reasoned_ consideration, involved in accepting classical Christian premises as foundational, than there is in placing one's faith in the idea of a purely material, mechanistic, naturalism. I am amazed that people who hold to humanism, naturalism, scientism, atheism, etc., are so unwillingly to admit that they
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:57:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:57:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Lehmberg >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:20:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:02:01 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>There is something very unique about the Mexican videos >>that Amy or Nick or anybody else will never be able to >>duplicate. Not as long as they are using any species of bird >>or type of balloon to do it. >Boy! I did not know you are an expert on meteorology and physics >and aerodynamics! I am really impressed of your authoritative >opinion! Armchair expert of the kind we really need! Oooo-kay! We'll forget for a moment that our Mr. Velez won't perform as described and didn't so much as suggest the intimation. We can also forget that our Mr. Velez has been the very soul of the 'authoritative' and an eschewer, for the lion's share, of the antithesis (found more, ironically, in the opposition camp). It remains that our Mr. Velez has at least two high-time aviators on his informal board with what could be called vast experience... and these persons have a degree of applied expertise, I think it could be called, in... wait for it... you guessed it, meteorology, aerodynamics... and even a little physics if they may be bold. You might be able to predict that these aviators agree with our Mr. Velez. These objects are of something... something... very highly strange. Others flog their denial of that, is all. Some get angry as that becomes more clear. Finally, given the slings and arrows that he has had to endure over the years.... the smirks, sneers, and snickers in addition to the obligatory shocks, our Mr. Velez has been a freaking model of intelligent comportment. >Look, bub, Mr. bub... >you come back to me with some radar of these objects >or time tagged stereo video of these "common" UFO "collection" >visits (don't forget to get your vigilantes to record the camera >angles and hopefully cooridinate the FOV) and then we will have >something worthy of analysis. Here's a little irony. Your camp could be characterized as constitutionally opposed to providing the evidence that you demand as something "worthy of analysis" because an intensive investigation producing said evidence is dismissed by you as unnecessary foolishness (in the aggregate) given that there's no such thing as UFOs to begin with... In the round I think that's fair. Space, Time, and Surface Area, Mr. Smith... >As it is the source of dubious pedigree, interesting yes, but >only for fun and entertainment. That's your ardent hope, isn't it? Rhetorical question. But then I see you and the rest of skeptibunkerdom or flailing post pelicanists amp up the rhetoric and emotionalism as the twitchy stuff oozes past your rotting pressure seals... as other nations of significance... not the least of which is China and India, abdicate the 'official secrecy' to suggest you, you personally (et al), live a contrived and self-serving fantasy. That's gotta hurt... it does me. >Was the damn camera pointed vertically or horizontally? What was >the weather? Do they have weather stations down there? I'm confident that, even provided the information you too conveniently demand, it would prove to be a point on your receding evidentiary horizon, a retreating horizon required for you to conveniently insist on extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. Hot flash? These claims become increasingly less extra-ordinary. Don't you feel that? That the real wad in your boxers, Sir. >The fact is that they got damn good weather stations down there >and you guys are sitting on your hands waiting for a "research >team". Lazy! A sloppy wet poultice on your pompously portentous pique, pardner. This is just something to say so you can obstinately hold to a dulling Occam's razor, misapplied parsimony, and tired conventional wisdom. >I know from some armchair research that Mexico is balloon crazy >(who knows why). It may be that it's you that's balloon crazy... ever think of that? I mean it you seeing them everywhere, after all. >I know from some armchair research that >balloons are commonly released by political campaigns and other >publicity stunts and festivals in Mexico. Oooo - red herring alert! >I know the vagaries of >wind currents, mild vortexes, perspective viewing, etc can >create the video images you advocate so vigorously. As well as >outright hoaxing. Right! Eliminate the impossible and what remains must be the truth, eh Watson? Still, it may be difficult for you, as such a beacon of hard-nosed rationality, to accept the supposition that the "vigorous advocate" in this little tempest is yourself. Far as I can see, our Mr. Velez and friends South, are asking (with intelligence and calmness) what these things are... It's you (et al) in the bionic flip-out mode proclaiming that these objects ARE NOT from other times or stars or planets... >I think the idea of a IFO video database makes sense because we >don't have the time (or expertise) to know what every kind of >unusual looking known object looks like (unless we spend 30 >years on the topic). Right - contrive an activity that insures the debate can be kept at the first level of plausible deniability of the ufological altogether, and facilitate the contention that all 'unknowns' will be eventually, given time (and unceasing propagandistic denial), be able to eventually, be convincingly identified as 'knowns'. That's your program, I suspect. It's in the CSICOPian bylaws and practiced by good little klasskurtxians and post- pelicanists, everywhere... >>At some point it all starts to look a little desperate on >>their part. We all need to be patient and understanding >>with Amy and Nick and even Mr. Smith. >Oh thank you Sir! Me be dumb, want you help! ...Did you vote Republican, too? >>Their level of 'fear' regarding this >>subject may much greater than for the average person. >>Apparently, they need to cling to the comfort of their >>'familiar' world view even when it doesn't fit the real >>conditions or circumstances. Why else would they spend >>so much of the time of their lives trying desperately to >>convince everyone that they are seeing something that >>is not there. ie 'birds.' >Fear! What a guy you are Mr.Velez! ...and he is too! Still, fear's the thing, Mr. Smith. You should try to minimize your own. >I think I have made it clear >that alien spaceships are welcome in my book. That's a pretty fatuous thing to say, Mr. Smith. It drips arrogance, ignorance, impertinence, intemperance, and, sorrowfully, a lack of intelligence... >I think they could >do a much better job running things, but it is clear that they >must be very intelligent because they have chosen not too (i.e. >why run such a bunch of problem children!). ...but then you out-do yourself... >Oh yes, I cannot be trusted so ignore anything I write or twist >it around to fit YOUR world view. ...That sounded a little disappointed. There may be hope for you. >>The reality of UFOs, I mean actually seeing one up >>close, shatters your world view into a million tiny pieces. >>The world you thought you knew is gone in an instant. >>It is never the same afterwards. The UFO >>encounter becomes a demarcation, a dividing point in the >>person's life. There is the 'you' before you saw the UFO >>and then there is the 'you' after you saw the UFO. The >>'you' after you saw the UFO sees the world much differently >>than the the 'you' before the encounter. >A bit melodramatic, sir. Considering the unending space involved, the un-bracketed time attendant, and the infinite surface area extant (?) I suspect we are not melodramatic enough by half... Mr. Smith. Have you ever looked into a night sky? >Yes, I agree that it is impressive. Depending on the fragility >of the observer, they may be shattered, or may just be awe- >inspired and yell out a "YEEE-HAAA!". > I tend to the "yee-haa", myself, and with an exuberant optimism that you must likely detest. >Now, being abducted is another thing, and that is more likely >terrifying and horrendous and mind scarring!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:01:00 -0400 Subject: Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:24:05 +0000 >Subject: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? >I sent a message to Mr. Bessent asking him to comment about this >issue and to clear the confusion with the dates and his >testimonial. I have not received any reply yet. Due to massive amounts of virus attacks Brian doesn't open mail to his ufotheatre.com email account anymore. I have forwarded your post to his new private email and if he is willing I'll relay any comments he may have.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 First Canadian Crop Circle Formation Of 2005 From: CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:36:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:02:04 -0400 Subject: First Canadian Crop Circle Formation Of 2005 CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network June 11, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ FIRST CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE FORMATION OF 2005 The first formation for this year has been reported at Sandy Bay, Manitoba, found on June 3. Reported to CCCRN Manitoba on June 6. An unusual "miniature dumbbell" in short grass, approximately only 3-3.6 metres (10-12 feet) long (based on ground photos), but similar in shape to some early 1990s formations in England. Each end circle is actually a set of concentric rings. Whether the grass is just flattened or dead is not known yet, with further details pending. Initial ground photos have been posted to the CCCRN web site. _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And From: Robert Rosamond <rivergypsy.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:21:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:05:34 -0400 Subject: Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? >Now I ask Mr. Brian Bessent how is it posible that he videotaped >this UFO over Phoenix last Sunday June 5 when the same video was >on display in the Signs from the Sky webpage since May? >Certainly confusing. Certainly is. Perhaps he was caught in a temporal time displacement situation at the, er... time, in which case expect your answer on a post-card... last year!!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:48:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:08:09 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Hebert >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >To All, Guess that includes me too. <snip> >A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >simple... >Important fact #1 - The OVNIs may be 'buzzing' Mexico City and >putting on this display there because it is the _largest_ city >in the whole world. Mexico city has the distinction of being the >single largest urban sprawl on the planet! <snip> I agree with you that UFOs appear to be putting on displays over certain cities but I don't think these recent so-called "fleets of UFOs" are it. There have, however, been very unusual 'displays' over Mexico that have been video taped - along with many misidentifications, attempted hoaxes and other highly questionable images. I think the people of Mexico are seeing genuine objects they can't identify but, as a side-effect, this has caused them to become more sensitized to anything unusual they may see in their skies. For example: The July 11, 1991 sightings and video footage during the solar eclipse is one of the best unexplained sightings I have reviewed. Why did "they" decide to make an appearance, aka "display" during the solar eclipse? What better time to get people's attention than when they are already looking up at the skies (same for the Phoenix Lights and Hale- Bopp). There are what appear to be genuine sightings, John, but throwing in every alleged UFO footage that comes along only makes these better sightings fade into the background and become less credible in the eyes of the world. When you take something as outstanding as the July 11, 1991 sightings and video footage and add dubious footage such as the recent "fleets of UFOs" footage, it doesn't make the world sit up and take notice, it makes people more likely to dismiss _all_ the sightings and video footage as bogus. If you only focus on the smaller picture and an intense need to _prove_ to the world that UFOs exist, you lose sight of a larger picture in which UFOs already exist and are quite deceptive. Not all UFO sightings are of genuine UFOs. Not all UFO videos or photographs are of genuine UFOs. And even though anything unidentified flying in the sky is technically a "UFO", some are real UFOs and some are merely misidentifications, hoaxes and deceptions (the "D" in CC&D). If we don't make some concerted effort to sort the more genuine UFOs from the possible misidentifications, hoaxes and other objects (such as UAV's, MAV's, exotic military technology and objects disguised/promoted as "UFOs"), we may never know the truth. I also agree (that's twice in a row - don't faint!) that we should be concerned about the danger of collisions between UFOs and passenger aircraft. But while you are making a scene and pointing to Mexico, focus becomes shifted from other cities where this is just as much of a concern if not more so. Riding on the tails of the recent "fleets of UFOs over Mexico" videos to throw in this concern about possible air disasters has the same effect as using this footage to bolster your claims about UFOs - it only makes people more likely to dismiss the danger rather than become concerned. I know that you are only trying to make people more aware of what's going on in our skies (around the world), so am I. We both know UFOs exist, we both want people to wake up and realize what's going on. But how we each go about this task is where we diverge. While you like to hold up almost every photograph or video footage of alleged UFOs as proof UFOs exist, I constructed the IFO Database to help people better _distinguish_ between the more genuine UFOs and the misidentifications, hoaxes and other objects. While it seems to make no difference to you who is presenting video footage of alleged UFOs, I Google the photographers and come up with interesting histories (sometimes quite by accident). You have called me a "debunker" (and other names) for the work I do because I question images and information. You attack me over and over but never really LISTEN to what I, and others, are trying to say. Just as we all must learn to distinguish the more genuine UFOs from the misidentifications, hoaxes and other objects in photographs, videos and in our skies, you need to learn to distinguish between those seeking truth and those making the search more difficult. And although you may think I make your campaign to prove UFOs exist more difficult, you have no idea how devoted I am to finding the real UFOs - the ones that are not misidentified birds, balloons, military aircraft or deliberate deceptions. John, stop and _think_. Ask yourself if, just what if, any of the UFO images you promote are actually misidentifications, hoaxes or other objects, what are the potential consequences if others use these images as truth about what's being seen in our skies? If some of these images are, in fact, balloons, birds or something else, and we go around basing analyses of UFOs on this material, how much will we learn about the real UFOs? If what you call "noise" is really closer to the truth than what you, yourself, promote, do you not then contribute more to the debunking than the search for the truth? And if we spend more time focusing on misidentified IFO's, hoaxes, personal conflicts and deliberate deceptions designed to keep us focused anywhere BUT on the truth, we will have less time to focus on the search for the real UFOs and truth. We need to find the _best_ evidence and use this as a foundation for our research not just any alleged UFO footage or photograph that comes along. Next, we need to discuss, not argue, through peer review the points for all sides involved. And finally, there needs to be a _consensus_ reached among researchers and investigators without vested interests in selling or promoting anything on TV, in magazines, books, web sites, etc. (These individuals may not necessarily be the ones we see at UFO conferences, in documentaries or at UFO meetings.) The thought of never knowing, in my lifetime, what is really going on out there is more than I can bear. So many mysteries and so little time. I can't tell you how much time and money I have taken from my life and from my children's lives to buy equipment, attend UFO conferences, buy books, magazines, sky watches, hours and hours and hours of research on the computer and in libraries - all in an effort to figure out what the hell is really going on (you have done the same). It's not that I am just mildly curious, I _have_ to know the truth and absolutely refuse to settle for less! I know we are both searching for the truth. You cannot make me angry because I know we are actually working towards the same goal - truth. If only we could learn to work together, simply agree to disagree yet still treat each other with respect...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:08:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:10:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Maccabee >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:14:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:40:55 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >><snip> >>>Thanks to the kindness of someone on the List, I was sent a >>>video cassette featuring reporter/speaker Jaime Maussan which >>>includes extensive footage of the "UFOs" taken with a FLIR video >>>camera from an airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft as well as an >>>assortment of Mexican "UFO Fleet" video clips, both very recent >>>and from the past. I will refrain from sharing my own >>>observations and comments until after some associates who are >>>better qualified to evaluate the contents in this video cassette >>>have had a chance to view it. I can report on their analysis as >>>soon as I get it. >>I presume your reference to "a FLIR vieo camera from and >>airborne Mexican Air Force aircraft" refers to the FLIR video of >>March 5, 2004 which became public knowledge in April or May >>2004? >>If you are having that analyzed by "some associates" I will be >>interested to find out what they do in the way of analysis and >>their results. >I have already sent out several first generation copies of the >entire video cassette (over one hour in total length including >the Mexican UFO fleet video clips) to people who have the >necessary training and experience to properly evaluate it. I am >now waiting to hear from them and once I do, I will share what >they have to say with everyone. >The clips in the video cassette I was sent shows that the >alleged UFOs, as recorded by the FLIR camera, had altitude >values that would place them at or just below the horizon. Actually some of the elevation angles placed the lights (which were bascially behind and to the left) above the plane's local horizon by a degree or more. The big question then is, wre the elevation angles correct or an error caused by imperfect mounting ot the FLIR dome on the plane or something else. >This >fact reminded me of a similar UFO experience I had from a >mountain top with a string of unexplained lights straight ahead >of me that I thought were in the sky above the distant horizon. >Since I was on a mountain top and the horizon was not visible >that clear dark night, I naturely assumed that the horizon would >be a little below the string of lights. You can read below in an >e-mail that was posted on UFO UpDates how even someone with much >training in astronomy and optics can be fooled. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m27-014.shtml >Since light is refracted or bent more at the horizon than it is >at higher elevations and we are all familiar with the flattened >and sometimes layered images of the Sun and Moon when they are >setting, the similar appearance of a couple of the brighter UFOs >suggested to me that they too were distant distorted ground >level objects at the horizon rather than aerial objects much >closer to the Mexican airplane. This has been a subject of heated debate for over a year now. Were all th FLIR lights simply distant oil field burnoff-flames or some other ground lights, or were at least some (at least one?) not on the ground. Some people are certain they were oil field fires, The Mexican Air Force could provide experimental evidence to prove or disprove the oil field/ground light theory. But they haven't done it. The closest they hav come is to provide anecdotal evidence such as: we hav flown in that area for years and we have never seen the oil fires or anything resembling these FLIR images before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: Birds Are UFO's? From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:24:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:16:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Birds Are UFO's? >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:48:00 -0500 >Subject: Re: Birds Are UFO's? >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:32:09 +0000 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? >>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:18:06 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Are Birds? <snip> >>Of course you did'nt know anything about this, right Amy? >>Surely not, as you are so far from Mexico and don't know anything >>happening here. Therefore you just invent things and make false >>statements like "nothing of this nature as yet been presented >>for peer review". This is certainly cheap talk. >Of course I don't watch Mexican TV, I live in the US - don't get >that channel on cable. But I wasn't referring to any alleged >evidence presented on Mexican TV, I was referring to what's been >said right here on the UpDates List and what evidence has been >presented. If you present your claims here then you should also >present your evidence here as we all can't run to Mexico to watch >TV. I wasn't inventing anything, just stating the obvious. >>I'm ready to send you or anyone who desires a videoclip to >>choose from seven I prepared or even the seven containing >>these Ballon-UFO discussions on Mexican television where Jaime >>Maussan presents these balloons to comment with the panel the >>diferences with UFOs. >>I would love to see these discussions, images and video footage of >>balloons. How do you wish to send them? >I will send you the videoclips to your email. Take note they're >about 7 MB, 6MB, 4MB and 3MB if this is ok with you. I will >include also an interview with Mr. Alex Arroyo from Globo >Imagen, Mexico's top advertisement ballons manufacturer and >expert in Balloons, Blimps, Hot Air and almost every kind of >ballon in the market. Mr. Arroyo comments about the UFO fleets and why they are not balloons or anything similar. We do research Miss Hebert and get interviews with qualified experts in the required fields, we present all these informations on national tv and radio here in Mexico. We don't talk just words and I have a huge amount of materials to sustain our statements. Just confirm me your email server is capable of receiving these large files. >And, as I indicated in my last post, I'd also like to review a copy >of the April 11, 2005 UFO video by Arturo Robles Gil and all the >other "fleets of UFO's over Mexico" videos - full length, unedited, >uncut, unenhanced. Can you send me a copy of these, pretty please? So you want your copy of the Mexican UFO fleets collection. You can ask Nick Balaskas for a copy of the video I gave him. I'm sorry but I will not waste my time editing such a large number of videos from my archive in a two day proccess because they will not convince you anyway. As I see things Amy Hebert may receive 1000 outstanding UFO videos from all over the world or perhaps 10,000 and she will still say all of them without any exception are pelicans or balloons. It's no use. Ask Nick to send you an extra copy of the ones he is sending. Nick is a gentleman and I'm sure will attend your request. >>It seems to me that you still have this kind of fixation on >>Mr. Robles Gil, as you keep asking so many mixed questions about >>him. All right I'll check the clips posted by John and I'll give >>you the answers. >Fixation? Seems to me if I were Arturo Robles Gil I would be >quite offended if someone had posted footage I created/filmed on >the internet and didn't include my name as the copyright owner. >I await your answers here, on the list, for all to see. We need >to publicly credit Mr. Gil for his work since it is so blatantly >absent in John's presentation. I can asure you that Mr. Robles Gil is very aware of all this and has not any complaint of anything to anybody. In any case I thank you in behalf of Arturo for your concern about his copyrights Miss Hebert. I'm not trying to convince you of anything Miss Hebert neither to pretend you change your posture regarding the mexican UFO sightings or even the UFO phenomenon. I'm aware of your belief and conviction and would be a stubborn trying to convince you of anything.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 12 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:23:31 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Yturria >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:38:51 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >>Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City <snip> >>A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >>Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >>simple... >The simple fact that nearly all of the recent video clips of UFO >fleets over Mexico were observed and recorded by a single >witness suggests, to me at least, that the vast majority of >Mexicans can distinquish between OVNIs and birds/balloons or >that the persons with the video cameras were either honestly >mistaken or very mischievous individuals. With continuing >unbiased investigations, the truth will eventually be known. Where did you get that erroneus information Nick? One single witness for all the recent UFO fleets? This is a terrible statement from you derived from your absolute ignorance of the reports and the videos or maybe is a deliberated disinformation from you? You are simply erasing all of our good mexican vigilantes that had videotaped so much UFO fleets contributing to this important graphic dossier. What's the matter with you? Didn't you review the whole video that I sent you with almost all the Mexican UFO fleets collection? So many skywatchers involved since the 90's, so many witnesses whose credits appear in every video included and now you say all these videos were filmed by a single person? You must be joking Nick or something very weird is in your head. You can not under any circumstance ignore or not acknowledge the legitimate skywatch work of so many respected Mexican citizens. This is a serious offense.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 UFO USSR From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:12:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:28:12 -0400 Subject: UFO USSR Reviewed By Ruth Gardner Throughout the centuries UFOs hovered over Russia, and USOs (Unidentified Undersea Objects) lurked in its waters. This e-book introduces the phenomena of the most important cases, observations, and sightings. 'UFO-USSR' endeavours to describe efforts of those dedicated researchers who have stubbornly pursued UFO research in the Russian Empire, the USSR, and modern Russia. The evidence in this piece of literature is extensive both in scope and detail. In its totality, it comprises a body of evidence written in the style of a Russian, which at the very least supports the general assessment of describing as fully as possible Soviet and Russian UFO cases, research areas, prominent personalities involved in such research (military, intelligence agencies, and civilians), opinions and viewpoints of those who were and are serious in their approach to the study of anomalous phenomena. Whatever the UFO phenomena is, it is certainly not a modern invention as this unique history clearly demonstrates. The history of UFO sightings and contacts over the lands that later became known as Russia date back thousands of years. 'UFO-USSR' is not meant to be definitive in any way, but is meant to show that UFO research has been and still is very active in the former USSR, and that a vigorous programme of research and serious diplomatic initiatives is warranted. The sheer scale of the authors' vision is breathtaking and I would challenge any non-believer to remain sceptic and walk away unchanged after absorbing the facts of decades in duration, and global in nature of there being too many hard sensor data-points and millions of eyewitnesses to ignore the evidence. This e-book has been published in the hope that the research and investigations will enable greater co-operation between East and West in what some have called 'The Greatest Mystery Known to Mankind'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:20:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:32:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:31:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >>>Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>You definitely would love to see this: >>>http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >>Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do >>respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my >>nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in >>support of these personal beliefs if it makes certain people >>feel good as I have good reasons to suspect is the case with >>some of the more interesting UFO fleet video clips. >>If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO >>fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the >>latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate >>Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and >>instead search for the missing news film footage of three >>saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time >>of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C. >>Marshall (see FSR, July/ August 1979) which I mentioned in an >>earlier e-mail to you. >That's too broad a brush to paint with Nick. You could say that >about any video that was shot of a possible UFO. What makes you >think this is faked? >I had a look at the video. It's odd no doubt. Obviously not >birds or balloons or flares. >If you have some information on this particular video, share it. >If not then making such a broad statement implying a faked video >via the use of Spielberg and Lucas's names isn't good enough. Hello Don, Several daylight pictures of the scene were taken a couple days later. The first one, in scrolling down, seems to show the same landscape frame as in the video, in that the same bush tops appear to show up with about the same size and spacing as in the video, where they are seen swaying a bit in the breezes. This was at: http://tinyurl.com/cyop6 There's a mountain range in the distant background, behind the objects. However, when I went back to check on it later this morning, I was not permitted to enter into the web site. Perhaps my own anti-virus-etc checker blocked it for me? The video-taking location is just south of Interstate 10 in Arizona near the communities of Avondale and Litchfield, a dozen
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Deniers Denied From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:39:31 -0400 Subject: Deniers Denied We - the ufological progressives and sincere truth- seekers? - have endured "skeptibunkies" and "noisy- negativists" in the past and from the start. These bridge- trolls have lurked and otherwise squatted outside the sincerest of ufological gates, saying their dismissive beads, moaning their chanted denials, and otherwise prosecuting their back- stepping anti-ufological case, These persons were known by their self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, This skeptibunky "old guard" begins to gray and die, or become inactive, and proves, by the way, the rule regarding the overall improvement provided to an aggregate civilization by EVERY funeral, good is interred with bones - the evil must live on and on, Subsequently, as if a result of this inevitable graying of the aforementioned "skeptibunkies" and "noisy-negativists", or some revolting spawning of these intellectually constipated long- toothers (apologies to long toothers everywhere, I breath on being one myself - verily), these "skeptibunkies" and "noisy- negativists" were supplanted by a _new_ breed of fortean naysayer, come to be known as "pelicanists" (Thanks and a tip of the hat to Jerry Clark,) and "klasskurtxians", (My personal favorite) ,A cold and clammy fusion of the best Phil Klass, and Dr. Paul Kurtz of CSICOP, that charming inventor of organized de-bunkery, Be that as it may, These (Second Generation) young-turks would become known by their, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, ,hmmm. The listener may begin to see a pattern emerge, And it just gets better! Just Lately, now, as if sprung from the head of some nay- saying Zeus, there comes a _new_ group of mal-intellectual mouth- breathers we can identify handily as "neo-klasskurtzians" and "post-pelicanists." These can be identified handily, by their, you might have guessed, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, The pattern seems clear, what was old is now new, These new Turks have continued the time honored (if ineffective) tradition of intellectual cowardice and ethical Machiavellianism in new and exciting ways! Oh - they've outdone themselves! Simply, they hijack the internet making all the trouble for them in the first place, and produce snappy little blogs or richly appointed little web-sites, charming little focal points for personal assaults, attacks on livelihood, and other organized tactics of the, cognitively _bigoted_ and the cluelessly _intolerant_. And Lately, friends and neighbors - one of these charming little activities have singled _me_ out, (among much more significant and deserving others I should say) as not only a clear and present danger to an accepted ufology, brothers and sisters, but as a clear and present danger to humanity itself! To quote the charge, I must be _stopped_, reader, or you are at peril! Now I can appreciate hyperbole as well as the next guy, but _"stopped"_ (?), your friendly UFO poet and humble versifier? Seems a line is crossed, and some persons, too casually, make philosophical enemies, And I'm not the only singled out for this, "elimination," reader, remember. Fear the poet? Ain't that strange? Fear the wordsmith "all deranged," Fear he's so far up your nose his boot heels scrub your top lip, Bro! Fear sincerity, off its knees and shaking off your 'shackles', please. It's 'them' contrives to fill _their_ 'plate' and that's an action of, profound, distaste, Good Sir and Genteel Madam. 'He' pules his smears and charges; 'she' snickers, smirks, and sneers, these are the specious clueless, consumed with needless fear. They prosecute pathetic plans to keep us in their box, but we're outside their cowardice; we've picked their facile locks! It's deniers should be denied, I suspect.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:41:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:44 EDT >Subject: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >Just wondering if anyone's got an update on tracking abductees? >I'd heard of tracking devices placed on them but hadn't heard of >any results. If any please forward. This is a good question. Forget about Mexican UFO "collections"! I would have thought that abductee data would be the best proof around that aliens are visiting. What bothers me is that with so many people claiming the events happen frequently to them, they do not have video proof. All we get are these missing time anecdotes. How are these abductions performed? I have heard stories of people passing through walls and such. Do the people actually even leave the room, or do they just think they are leaving the room or is time manipulated such that they return the next second after they leave? Pretty substantial time travel taking place in that case. If that is true then we have little hope against such foes. Also, I have heard that regardless of the effort in videoing or handcuffing the person in place, the abductors always get their abductee and leave few traces (video malfunctions or blank, sort of like "Contact"). Yet, we have scoop marks and implants. The later especially should be definitive proof of alien visits but what gives? They aren't? Why not? These probes by their nature should be at least viewable using electron or scanning tunneling microscopes to deduce their assembly or mechanism. Even if we can't build such a device, we should be able to see the complex layers, interconnections, chemical combinations, isotopes. All I have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Things Keel-ian - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:10:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:42:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:01:58 +0100 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:23:21 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>>To: UFO Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:55:55 -0500 >>>Subject: Things Keel-ian >>On the other hand, if you want to validate the longtime >>pelicanist charge that anomalistics thinly covers a retreat from >>reason and is in truth a new faith, by all means take up demons >>by that or any other name. That galloping sound you hear, >>however, will be from my feet fleeing the church as rapidly as >>they will carry this old Fortean. >Once you start invoking non-human intelligences to explain >anomalous experiences you can't really make more than semantic >differences between them. Groan. This sorry, hoary canard again. Pelicanists evidently have been reduced to some serious bottom-of-the-barrel scraping these days. I would like to think that Peter Rogerson knows better, and perhaps he does (the distinction between ritual polemic and sincere conviction in these quarters is not always clear); thus, the words below are not addressed to him, but to those who understandably wonder what such strange charges are about. To start with, Rogerson's is a recycling of a tired rhetorical strategy one used to hear many years ago but which, after long and justified neglect, has now been dusted off for (what one fervently hopes will be) one last go- round, in the absence of anything more relevant or interesting to throw into the ongoing debate about the significance of the UFO phenomenon. Perhaps all it does is document pelicanism's intellectual calcification. It ought to go without saying that it is absurd to assert that any suggestion we are not alone in the universe is a fundamentally religious claim. I doubt that any rational person could believe such rubbish. I saw precious little (if that) evidence of it as I reviewed five decades' worth of published ufological writing and private correspondence - an enormous amount of material - as I was researching the encyclopedia. If what the pioneering UFO researchers were up to was the hope for salvation from other worlds and/or ascension into glorious heavenly realms via the beings who live there, then Peter Rogerson lives in an alternative universe where such evidence is available, since it is not available in this one. (And of course he cites none.) Either that, or "religion" means whatever one needs it to mean to demean somebody and his opinion you disagree with. It is, moreover, lazy to dismiss a large body of puzzling reports - mostly, by the way, from persons who do not draw any recognizably religious conclusions from their experiences - that suggest the presence of nonhuman intelligences as ipso facto religious in nature and therefore unworthy of consideration in any other context. (Even in the rare cases that witnesses do draw religious inferences, so what? Scientists often draw religious or metaphysical conclusions from their observations of nature.) An argument like that is just a way not to have to think seriously about things that irritate pelicanists, and it is, needless to say, antithetical to the spirit of scientific curiosity and inquiry. One might say, if one wants to go that way (I don't), that it is, however, entirely consistent with faith-based approaches one recognizes in pelicanist practice, where the disconnect between broad, sweeping claim and the empirically demonstrable tends often to be considerable. Perhaps what pelicanists are about is less science than inquisition targeting heresy. The contactee movement is, as academic specialists on religion have long noted, based in religious impulses. Ufology is, in theory if often not in practice, a protoscience. My late friend Marcello Truzzi, a very well-informed sociologist of science and skeptic, never once characterized ufology as a religion. He called it a protoscience, and he publicly and privately defended it, along with its most thoughtful representatives, as a worthy intellectual enterprise. He is hardly alone in that, of course. The ETH, for example, is right, or it is wrong, but it is investigatable and one day, with the proper scientific resources applied to it, will be resolved to the satisfaction of reasonable observers (as opposed, say, to the question of God's existence). One does not have to be searching for salvation (if one is, in any event, there are the contactees to go to) to wonder if puzzling sightings of ostensibly technological, ostensibly of- nonterrestrial-origin aerial phenomena - of the sort, moreover, that show up on radar, leave ground traces, and are seen by multiple and independent observers - represent an otherworldly presence, perhaps signifying (as the perfectly respectable astrobiological hypothesis has it) a densely populated galaxy. Even if those of us who so wonder are ultimately proved mistaken, it will not be because of misguided theology, just ordinary misreading of evidence. And misreading of evidence occurs every single day in just about every human endeavor. We're fighting a war in Iraq because of it. My friend J. Gordon Melton, one of this nation's most distinguished authorities on fringe religious groups (author of the continuing series Encyclopedia of American Religions), draws the distinction as saucerianism (contactee/metaphysical) and ufology (protoscientific). Any serious individual with experience in the field will have no trouble recognizing the distinction. Obviously, it's always easier to call ufology a religion than to explain the RB-47 case. Ufologists do not look to salvation from the sky, but they are properly curious about its sometimes very strange anomalies. The problem with ufology is not that the average participant is on some closet metaphysical quest. It's that too many don't know how to think critically. The reflexive, ill-considered defenses of Keel and Sanderson depressingly underscore the point. I know that simple critical failure is less exciting to cite than grave theological error, but sadly, it's the hand we're dealt. It's what those who hope to make ufology more functional, rather than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:14:52 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:45:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:56 +0100 >Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:34:13 -1000 >>Subject: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Europ-Union >>Exopolitical Implications of French/Dutch rejection of the >>European Union Constitution ><snip> >I'm so sorry that the voters of France and the Netherlands have >scuppered Mr Salla's plans. I suppose they were voting on >matters such as economic growth, the euro, taxation, national >independence, industrial policy, law, immigration and other such >trivialities, rather than important fantasy issues like >exopolitical whistle blowers. >I can hardly wait for the British referendum (if Tone lets us >have one) when we will also have the opportunity to vote yes to >UFO disclosure, courtesy of M. Chirac. >Wow! Aloha John, Wow indeed. You ascribe plans to me that I wasn't aware of. I didn't realize that my 'plans' entailed an acceptance of the French/Dutch referenda. You must enlighten me here and share your magical insights into my motivations for Europe. As for exopolitical whistleblowers, is the fantasy you are refering to that they exist, that the things they claim are real, or that Europeans care about what whistleblowers like Philip Corso have to say? If the latter, then please take a look at the Cometa Report where Col Corso is mentioned and the implications of his testimony for UFO research are discussed. Are these former French generals, scientists indulging in some Euro fantasy which somehow coincide with my exopolitical plans? As for the indefinitely delayed British referendum on the Euro constitution, again your ability to find connections when I see none is magical. Did you attend divination school?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:25:18 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:46:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >Martin, >Your discourse strikes me again as avoiding skilfully the hard >core of ufology i.e. the ET presence, and its great "Defense >significance" among other things. See for instance the book >"Faded Giant" of Robert Salas and James Klotz, on the 1967 >Missile/UFO incidents. Gildas Very amusing. So I'm "avoiding" the work of Jim Klotz am I? If you knew whereof you spoke you would, I'm sure, be gentleman enough to blush just a little at the laughable inappropriateness of _that_ remark. Howsoever, I assure you I'm absolutely delighted to confront evidence, which is what I've been doing all weekend as a matter of fact before becoming weak-willed enough to give in to irritation and waste my time responding to your ignorant allegation. >And I am not surprised to see Vallee and Magonia on your >bandwagon! What is this? Discreditation by word-association? Vallee = Magonia = Harney-Rimmer = pelican? You'd be surprised how little I care about your valuation of the thoughts of Jacques Vallee, Gildas. But if you ever have a thought of your own that's half as pregnant as the meanest of that gentleman's, please be sure and let me know. Now in the meantime consider what I actually said: It may be that an objective UFO phenomenon (most probably more) exists at the core of our subjective flying saucer mythology (and if you wish to deny that there is any such mythology then read no more because there is no hope for you). One of the objective UFO phenomena may be ET intrusions; I don't deny there are some cases which most naturally invite that interpretation, though it wants proof (there are other likely phenomena too, some natural, some due to covert human technology, which also want proof). But it may be that there is something _else_ going on also, something that catches up images of our dreams and images of the world and plays them back to us through the medium of our own experiences in a kind of playful mimicry - oddly edited, with strange splices and disconcerting flashes of subliminal meaning - in a form which is neither thing nor thought but some mode transcending either . . . but I won't go on since you certainly won't have a clue what I'm talking about. Apparently if I am not riding your bandwagon, proclaiming that ET spaceship crews have been sending threatening messages to SAC by fiddling with its ICBMs, then I am "avoiding the hard core of ufology". I could explain that I have spent the last 4 months working on very interesting _hard evidence_ of UFOs apparently related to ICBM site security intrusions, but what would be the point? You aren't interested in evidence, only ETs. Evidently months and years of work studying and cataloguing radar cases, months and years trying to get to the bottom of major watershed incidents like Trindade and Lakenheath is "avoiding the hard core too", so I'll just go and "skillfully" (thankyou for that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:55:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:52:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:31:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >>>Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>You definitely would love to see this: >>>http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >>>A. J. Gevaerd >>Hi A.J. >>Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do >>respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my >>nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in >>support of these personal beliefs if it makes certain people >>feel good as I have good reasons to suspect is the case with >>some of the more interesting UFO fleet video clips. >>If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO >>fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the >>latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate >>Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and >>instead search for the missing news film footage of three >>saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time >>of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C. >>Marshall (see FSR, July/ August 1979) which I mentioned in an >>earlier e-mail to you. >That's too broad a brush to paint with Nick. You could say that >about any video that was shot of a possible UFO. What makes you >think this is faked? >I had a look at the video. It's odd no doubt. Obviously not >birds or balloons or flares. Hi Don! What I find very upsetting is the ongoing and increasing attacks on ufologists and the science of ufology as the result of the many hoaxed/faked UFO incidents that are being promoted by some of our own UFO colleagues and friends as soon as they receive them without asking any prior questions or even doing a quick investigation. The recent very strange footage from Arizona is just the latest example where we were provided with what we wanted to see (yes, this video could definitely not be explained as flares this time!) and gives UFO research another black eye. My skeptical friends often present me with many actual UFO cases that were reported by Brian Vike, Jeff Rense, George Filer, Linda Howe, etc. (just to mention a few) in support of their conclusion that all UFOs have prosaic explanations and there is nothing worthy of study in this field. When was the last time these UFO reporting sources published follow-up accounts after it was clearly demonstrated that a certain UFO picture or incident was a fake or had an obvious and rational explanation? UFO incidents are rare but real and certainly worthy of study. I know that weekly UFO newsletters have to be written and new material presented at UFO lectures and talk shows but we have the responsibility of being critical reviewers of the stuff that is sent to us, often from annonymous or very suspicious sources. >If you have some information on this particular video, share >it. If not then making such a broad statement implying a faked >video via the use of Spielberg and Lucas's names isn't good >enough. Since you are a regular guest on Errol Bruce-Knapp's 'Strange Days... Indeed', if you listened in to Saturday night's show you already have the answer as to why I believe this particular video to be a fake. If not, I refer you to Santiago Yturria Garza's post to the List on Saturday: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jun/m11-011.shtml
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:16:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:53:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:14:47 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Mac tonnies <macbot.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >><snip> >>Yes indeed! Don't know about "a global quantum event" but you put >>your finger on the essential strangeness of this business, the >>thing that has kept me fascinated and baffled since the 1960s. >Martin >The first two on your list are clear enough, but I am not >sure what you mean by the third or by "thought forms". You >aren't going down the road of Scott Rogo's The Phenomenon, or >tuplas and planetary poltergeists I hope. Perhaps you make >things clearer with an example Well Peter, when I speak of "essential strangeness", "bafflement" and the possibility of scarcely-intuited levels of existential "mystery", this is code for "I am flummoxed" and I am sadly unable to clarify things with tidy examples. If you don't share the intuition then there's nothing to be said about it. FYI I have no knowledge whatever of the above Mr. Rogo and couldn't possibly comment on what you might mean by planetary poltergeists. I apologise that in this instance I do not have even a rudimentary testable theory to offer, merely an instinct to share, as over a metaphorical late-night beer with kindred souls. Had I one (a theory, not a soul - or a beer) I should perhaps feel less baffled and mystified (on second thoughts maybe the beer would help - I suspect Larry may agree). You are entitled to lament this lack of clarity, as do I. It's a funny old life ain't it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Things Keel-ian - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:44:13 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:58:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian - Balaskas >From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:48:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Things Keel-ian >>I would differentiate between the premise I've put forward that >>everyone holds to some type of "religion" (that is, >>ideology/philosophy/worldview) and those "belief systems" upon >>which any particular ideology/philosophy/worldview is based. >Religion requires a theological 'leap of faith' in order to >justify its own conclusions. Faith is never cetain, else it is >knowledge. To confuse Faith and Knowledge is do diminish both. <snip> While studying physics (or natural philosophy as this area of knowledge was once known) at university, I would often leave a class having learned a new concept or two that I could only accept on faith rather than an established fact. For this reason I agree with Ray that we all hold to some type of "religion". Since facts do not speak for themselves but are interpreted in light of the particular "ideology/philosophy/worldview" one holds, these is no real distinction between Faith and Knowledge. >Philosophy, as a discipline, does not require faith. It only >requires reason. Any philosopher worth his weight in salt will >know when he has made that logical leap of faith, and he will >admit it. <snip> I point out to students that current scientific knowledge and philosphical truths are not absolute or final but are in fact undergoing revision or evolution. Just like 19th century physics had been replaced by the 20th century physics I studied, these same students will be writing the 21st century textbooks that will make our current scientific knowledge obsolete. It is interesting to note that one book, The Bible, has truths found within it that have remained unchanged and are still as valid now as they were many milleniums earlier when they were first revealed to us by a Higher Intelligence (God, or ETs) despite generations of literary criticism and other scholarly attacks. Although The Bible is not a science book, I predict its multidimensional cosmological truths found within its pages will be proven to be absolute and true long after our present day knowledge and philosophical views have long since been discarded. I agree with Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell when he suggests that the answers to the mystery of UFOs are already found in The Bible - a written ET revelation that this generation of the self professed wise have ignored and refuse to re-examine out of intellectual arrogance. Could this be the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:12:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:01:32 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Velez Hello All, I just wanted to say a very public thank you to Victor Viggiani for his superlative efforts on behalf of the UN Petition. I was knocked out by the promo spot to raise public awareness about the UN petition for UFO information disclosure that Victor wrote and recorded, and EBK aired on his SDI program. I give a deep bow at the waist and a tip of the 'Old Hat' to both of these outstanding gentlemen. With friends like these two and A.J. Gevaerd, pitching in to help, the drive to increase the number of signatures on the petition is almost guaranteed to succeed. Thank you all. If I had an 'award' I'd present it to all of you for your selfless service to the larger community. You guys are the best. I'm proud and honored to know you and to be associated with you in this 'labor of love' we're all engaged in. "You alone can do it... but you can't do it alone!" Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: Alien Thinking - Johns From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:18:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:04:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Thinking - Johns >From: Will Beuche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:47:04 -0500 >Subject: Re: Alien Thinking ><snip> >In addition to Angela Hind's wonderful BBC News website article, >and the masterully edited half hour audio documentary, >Abduction, Alienation & Reason, which remains available for >download on the BBC's "recent broadcasts" website, I also invite >you to read a rebuttal to the comments made by the one naysayer >on the radio program: >http://johnemackinstitute.org/center/center_news.asp?id=263 >You will also find an alternative way to download the broadcast >there if you are experiencing any trouble with the BBC RealAudio >feed. I have placed two videos on my website which will likely be found interesting by a large majority of this list...including, hopefully, Mr. Beuche. The False Messiah video is quite interesting - a magician approaches various 'believers' seeking an endorsement. If at any time the believers ask 'is this a trick?' the magician promises to end the deception. http://www.aionblog.com/?postid=41 The Sheldrake, McKenna, Abraham video is also quite interesting. I am guessing that at least some of the people on this List are familiar with these gurus, and the subject matter certainly is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 What Is Happening To UFO Updates? From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:05:47 -0400 Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk like this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men of Updates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers marginally off course from a scientific direction? This will never do. It is alarming and threatening the reality I have come to cherish. Perhaps it's because it's summer and everyone's brains are addled. Then bring on winter and hard nosed reality. Or perhaps Rich Reynolds has it right? A Paradigm Shift? http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 13 Re: UFO USSR - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:54:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:07:07 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO USSR - Shell >From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:12:27 +0100 >Subject: UFO USSR >Whatever the UFO phenomena is, it is certainly not a modern >invention as this unique history clearly demonstrates. I'm sure the book is good, and the reviewer has described it well, but it is hard for me to take seriously any review with such a basic grammatical error. Phenomena is PLURAL. Phenomenon is singular. Thus, "these phenomena are...", "this phenomenon is...."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:35:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky robkrit.nul To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Mon. 13 June, 2005 8:14:00(MST) Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >From: Nick Balaskas >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:25 -0300 >>Subject: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>You definitely would love to see this: >>http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm >>A. J. Gevaerd <snip> >Although I may not always or fully agree with someone, I do >respect everyone's personal beliefs. Also, it is not in my >nature to attack those who profit by creating evidence in >support of these personal beliefs >Nick: It would seem the only assumption A.J. is making concerning this video, is that it will interest the group. If he had made claims as to its authenticity, I would expect him to give reasons/data to support those claims. However, none were made in this case. Just the same, I would expect claims of fabrication to be supported by similar data/reasoning... an aspect that seems to be absent from your post. >If you really are curious and want to learn the truth about UFO >fleets in the sky instead of just being entertained by the >latest edited UFO videos for sale from aspiring second rate >Spielberg's and Lucas', then I suggest you save your money and >instead search for the missing news film footage of three >saucer-shaped craft over the Mexico City airport in 1951 at time >of arrival of U.S. Secretary of State, General George C. >Marshall (see FSR, July/ August 1979) which I mentioned in an >earlier e-mail to you. Contrary to the above recommendation, I think your focus on what is happening in the "now" to be more prudent then dwelling on what happened 30 or 50 years ago. In fact, let me propose an idea that may seem even more preposterous. I would suggest to you that even more than the "past" or the "present moment", that it is the near future that holds the most promise or potential for providing real verifiable answers to this quandary. This does not mean everything to the left of now is meaningless, it just means the mindset we approach these videos and witness accounts with needs to evolve beyond thinking of them as providers of proof, because they may be more valuable as means of prediction After all, witness accounts from Air Force Pilots and Presidents have not proved much and in reality, even this video if it was somehow shown to be authentic, would not change the status quo. The question then becomes... can the information gathered from previous sightings provide us with enough information to suggest with some degree of accuracy, where a future sighting may occur? I believe the answer to this question to be an unequivocal "yes". The logical question becomes... then what? Well, my suggestion is that we gather the appropriate scientific equipment, enough to provide multiple data streams of information. We then make predictions and expand upon them - e.g: We predict we will observe and document lights/activity at this location. If these events are of a conventional nature, then we would expect to get the following readings... it the lights are of an . unconventional nature, then we would expect to see a, b and c. I'm not sure any single video should or could be of a caliber that we could call it "the smoking gun". Video alone is just not going to cut it... multiple streams of data will. Perhaps a technique that is a little more proactive then hunting for smoking guns is in order. I think we need to be there when the gun is fired... this is a do-able thing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:10:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:18:55 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? >What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk like >this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men of >Updates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers marginally >off course from a scientific direction? Sometimes a dip into epistemology, teleology, ontology, and logic can be a bracing refresher!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Alien Thinking - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:18:19 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:49:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Thinking - Miller >From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:18:55 -0500 >Subject: Re: Alien Thinking >>From: Will Beuche - John E Mack Institute ><info.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:47:04 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Alien Thinking >><snip> >I have placed two videos on my website which will likely be >found interesting by a large majority of this >list...including, hopefully, Mr. Beuche. >The False Messiah video is quite interesting - a magician >approaches various 'believers' seeking an endorsement. If at >any time the believers ask 'is this a trick?' the magician >promises to end the deception. >http://www.aionblog.com/?postid=41 Hello Shane, When I went to check this out, the image or video didn't come up for me, but I recognise the subject matter anyway as I spoke about it on SDI a few months ago, and presume it is about the artist, Derren Brown. It was indeed an intriguing programme but I was disturbed in particular by his tricking of Ann Druffel who is now an elderly lady and who I would presume doesn't really need this sort of crap in her life at the moment. But that's not to take anything away from Derren Brown who I regard as the most outstanding talent on UK TV for a very long time. And I wouldn't moan too much about why only us Brits get this kind of quality programming because I am quite sure that a talent like Derren will indeed cross the Atlantic sooner or later. On the basis of that programme, I described him as a British version of James Randi but I would withdraw that remark now. Yes, he's not keen on psychics etc. but his approach is softer than Randi's. As much as I admire Brown's talent, he scares the wotsits out of me. I also feel sorry for him. When you can read people as well as he can, it must make personal relationships extremely
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 SDI Interview With A.J. Gevaerd On-Line From: Strange Days... Indeed <sdi.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:00:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:02:16 -0400 Subject: SDI Interview With A.J. Gevaerd On-Line For those UFO UpDates readers interested in some of the content of official UFO files shown to the Brazilian researchers, by the Brazilian Airforce's representatives, last month, the Strange Days... Indeed interview with A.J. Gevaerd is available on-line in Real Media audio format at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/ Scroll down to program number 345 and click the 'Play' button. Errol Brucce-Knapp Host/Producer Strange Days... Indeed NewsTalk 1010 CFRB - Toronto http://www.cfrb.com Montreal's NewsTalk Leader CJAD 800 http://www.cjad.com http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/ Scroll down the listings to program number 345 and click the 'Play' button.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:45:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:21:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Ledger >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:20:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:31:54 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:13:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>I had a look at the video. It's odd no doubt. Obviously not >>birds or balloons or flares. >>If you have some information on this particular video, share >>it. If not then making such a broad statement implying a faked >>video via the use of Spielberg and Lucas's names isn't good >>enough. >Several daylight pictures of the scene were taken a couple days >later. The first one, in scrolling down, seems to show the same >landscape frame as in the video, in that the same bush tops >appear to show up with about the same size and spacing as in the >video, where they are seen swaying a bit in the breezes. This >was at: >http://tinyurl.com/cyop6 >There's a mountain range in the distant background, behind the >objects. Behind or under. It would be better if it was behind and then you would have a max distance. >However, when I went back to check on it later this morning, I >was not permitted to enter into the web site. Perhaps my own >anti-virus-etc checker blocked it for me? I tried to access as well and it was denied. Either as you say, or the page is down. Having re-read the text on Rense's site again I see that the photographer claims he took the camera off the tripod to change to auto-focus. Why? Apparently then the rest is shot without the use of a tripod. Looks very steady for hand held. Could be the steady-cam technology built into some of the newer consumer cameras. I've been looking for a contact for this UFO Theatre and have been unsuccessful. Maybe they are shy. Additionally when I click on their URL on Rense's site I get an "invalid" response although as mentioned the tiny url will take me to the site. Was it the owner of the site who shot the video or did someone
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:22:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:25:18 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >Now in the meantime consider what I actually said: It may be >that an objective UFO phenomenon (most probably more) exists at >the core of our subjective flying saucer mythology (and if you >wish to deny that there is any such mythology then read no more >because there is no hope for you). One of the objective UFO >phenomena may be ET intrusions; I don't deny there are some >cases which most naturally invite that interpretation, though it >wants proof (there are other likely phenomena too, some natural, >some due to covert human technology, which also want proof). >But it may be that there is something _else_ going on also, >something that catches up images of our dreams and images of the >world and plays them back to us through the medium of our own >experiences in a kind of playful mimicry - oddly edited, with >strange splices and disconcerting flashes of subliminal meaning >- in a form which is neither thing nor thought but some mode >transcending either . . . Very well said, Martin. I have come to very similar conclusions,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:43:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:24:30 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City I know it may sound like whining to you and Mr. Velez, but it would be a great public service to both: 1) ardent supporters of the trueness of the Mexican UFO "collections" videos and 2) those hardheaded others who reserve endorsement of such claims until further analysis is performed if you or some public minded citizen would provide a list of the Mexican "collection/fleet/flock/swarm" videos and the film date, film location, film type, camera type, film time, filmer name and a link to the relevant video. Witness/filmer report would be nice.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:00:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Smith >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:55:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >What I find very upsetting is the ongoing and increasing attacks >on ufologists What? You are joking right;)? Attacks? Verbal castigations? Profuse diatribes against people who simply try to point the conservative approach? You bet! >and the science of ufology as the result of the >many hoaxed/faked UFO incidents that are being promoted by some >of our own UFO colleagues and friends as soon as they receive >them without asking any prior questions or even doing a quick >investigation. I tried to warn them to watch out about the Mexican UFO "collections" but was roundly abused for my trouble. >The recent very strange footage from Arizona is >just the latest example where we were provided with what we >wanted to see (yes, this video could definitely not be explained >as flares this time!) and gives UFO research another black eye. I sympathcize with your concern. But its like the little boy and the leaky dike. Too many "fun" UFO videos are coming out. At least we don't have as many "rods" videos as in the past. The Arizona footage was amusing. But it was childish in production value compared to the various "fleet" videos. >When was the last time >these UFO reporting sources published follow-up accounts after >it was clearly demonstrated that a certain UFO picture or >incident was a fake or had an obvious and rational explanation? It doesn't sell! Even UFO magazines or newsletters would not sell many copies if they kept EXPLAINING what the UFOs were. Sure skeptic magazines would eat them up, but then their audience WANTS to hear that kind of stuff and would likely not be receptive to unassailible true UFO data. >UFO incidents are rare but real and certainly worthy of study. I >know that weekly UFO newsletters have to be written and new >material presented at UFO lectures and talk shows but we have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:05:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:26:57 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:12:19 -0400 >Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update >I just wanted to say a very public thank you to Victor Viggiani >for his superlative efforts on behalf of the UN Petition. I was >knocked out by the promo spot to raise public awareness about >the UN petition for UFO information disclosure that Victor wrote >and recorded, and EBK aired on his SDI program. I thought the main problem with the promo was that it emphasized
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Wikipedia On UFOs From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:41:01 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:29:29 -0400 Subject: Wikipedia On UFOs Hi Everyone! It has been brought to my attention that there is an encyclopedia on the Internet that is often used by my science colleagues and fellow Listers, including Brian Cuthbertson, who I believe was the first to mention about it in his January 2002 post to the UFO UpDates list. It is called Wikipedia and anyone can contribute to it (there are also thousands of articles in different languages too) and expand or edit its contents. Out of curiousity, I entered "UFO" in its search engine and got the detailed reference page below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufo To my surprise there were also many timely sub-entries on topics or people recently discussed on UFO UpDates. Below are just a few of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Keel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet_Yahweh (With a very interesting picture of Yahweh holding some of the UFOs(?) he claims he can summon to make a fly by.) As of today, there are information pages for Jacques Vallee and Allen Hynek but nothing yet for Richard Hall, Bruce Maccabee or Stanton Friedman which are identified in the "UFO" reference page as "Prominent UFO Researchers" and who also deserve an entry in Wikipedia. Certainly Jerry Clark, who has written an entire encyclopedia or two of his own (on the subject of UFOs), also deserves to be there too. Since with time we become too "specialized" in our own areas of interest in ufology and can no longer see the big picture, it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:41:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:28:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? <snip> >Also, I have heard that regardless of the effort in videoing or >handcuffing the person in place, the abductors always get their >abductee ... This is speculative. A colleague heard from a person who claims to practice nightly out of body experiences, ostensibly by having the spirit body leave the physical body. An experiment was tried where this 'astral traveller' tried sleeping in a faraday cage. The report was that the 'astral traveller' could not travel through the faraday cage. Since a cage made of 2 x 4s and window screen is relatively
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:34:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:40:59 -0400 Subject: Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:24:05 +0000 >>Subject: The 'Amazing' Phoenix 'UFO' Shot By Whom And When? >>I sent a message to Mr. Bessent asking him to comment about this >>issue and to clear the confusion with the dates and his >>testimonial. I have not received any reply yet. >Due to massive amounts of virus attacks Brian doesn't open mail >to his ufotheatre.com email account anymore. >I have forwarded your post to his new private email and if he is >willing I'll relay any comments he may have. >Thanks >Terry I have received already two emails from them in response to my inquiry, Terry, and this is my personal update on this case. The first response received came from a Mr. Diaz from UFO Theatre the next day I sent my message. >From: "morphic fields" <ufotheatrecontact.nul> >To: syturria.nul >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:27:29 -0500 >Subject: RE: About your UFO report published by Jeff Rense >Actually it was a simple mistake... we accidently >overwrote some jpeg files on the website with those >newer ones... we fixed it less than an hour after >it happened. stuff like that happens when you have >thousands of files in 1 location. >have a nice day mr diaz I thanked Mr. Diaz for his response to my inquiry but added I was still confused by the sighting's date reported because according to Google's cache the video's still frames were on display dated on May 28, 2005. I sent him the link to Google's cache to check this feature because those images were still there dated on May 28 despite the fact that they updated the webpage erasing the mentioned images. I asked to explain this issue as I was disconcerted. I did not receive a reply. I'm not an expert in how Google works neither their system updates etc. All I know is that I use Google all the time as a consulting source of information. I have used the Google's cache many times finding informations and images from websites that don't even exist anymore but those informations and images were kept by Google in it's cache since they were published. Is this magic? The next step they took immediately was to remove the Google's cache images of the mentioned video replacing them with other images. This reaction was expected so I took the precaution to record both the original webpage Signs from the Sky, subject of my first inquiry and also the Google's cache webpage dated May 28, 2005. I needed to do this because these images were the subject of my inquiry and it seemed to me they were trying to erase some evidence here. So far at this stage of my own investigation there were several facts already confirmed. A) Mr. Bessent and the UFO Theatre people recognized the still frames of the June 5, 2005 UFO video from Phoenix by Mr. Bessent were on display at the Signs from the Sky webpage uploaded by mistake according to Mr. Diaz statement. B) They erased the mentioned images from the webpage replacing them with others after they received my message informing about this anomaly. C) They erased the images from the Google's cache after they received my second message informing about the Google's cache display. Then a series of emails were exchanged but not directly from them to me but through third parties giving me several explanations how Google works, what's Google's cache and how the webpages are retrieved etc. Diferent versions with diferent interpretations among each other in a confusing situation. The doubt remained: May 28 or June 5? A simple issue. I received finally a message from Brian Bessent but unfortunatelly he decided not to sign his own message for some reason I can't explain. The message dated Sunday June 12, 2005 is extense and full of insults, difamations and accusations to me in such an offensive language that I prefer not to post it here. Mr. Bessent message was a complete surprise to me and a regrettable disappointment. Clearly the man was so upset and altered that he simply lost control of himself and let out his temperamental anger. He's a young man and has the temperament of youth. But this is not an excuse to forget good manners, education and respect in addressing me with insults and defamations. I made a simple inquiry regarding a single issue on his case but with respect and proper conduct according to ethics. Brian Bessent's agresive attitude is certainly disconcerting and reveals his true personality at least to me. More disconcerting and certainly regrettable is the fact that he didn't sign his own message even that it mentioned how he taped the sighting, the date, etc. Why did he refuse to sign his own message? Was he trying to cover his back for some reason? At the same time he updated again the Google's cache of the Signs from the Sky webpage placing legends all over attacking Google with sarcasm using sentences with unintellegible sense. I belive his mood has gone out of proportion. Too bad, I was only asking a single date issue. I will keep my inquiries in a stand-by status watching other developments on this case by some other colleagues. I have not questioned the footage itself, just the provided date. I know this footage is in discussion by many persons questioning different issues about the footage. It's clear to me that Brian Bessent has closed his doors to legitimate UFO research on his case, avoiding to discussion of anything with any interested ufologist. This is regrettable. So far I don't think Brian will ever allow his video to be properly analyzed by experts. I hope I'm wrong. It seems to me that Brian Bessent has no experience in dealing with UFO research. Every major case that appears is followed by a series of inquiries, discussions, debates, requests by ufologists and even skeptics. This is a naturally expected response to any new major UFO case, specially if spectacular evidence is provided. We all know this response is logical and has been around for decades. I remember a proverb that my good friend, the late Graham Birdsall liked to publish in his UFO Magazine: Extraordinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Evidence. I will add to this Extraordinary Investigations. So Ufology has rules to be respected, principles to be followed in what's known as Investigation with all that it implies. That's why we always ask those witnesses with evidence to always stay open to investigation, to colaborate objectively with the researchers and analysts even if the questioning is hard and the position seems somehow skeptical, the objective is to get to the truth. I would ask you Terry not to respond on behalf of Brian Bessent. Let Brian respond himself regarding his case. If he is not
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:36:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:41:50 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:38:51 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:09:30 -0400 >>>Subject: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City ><snip> >>>A fair question would be 'Why are the OVNIs over Mexico City? >>>Why not New York, Montreal, Paris, Moscow? The answer is >>>simple... >>The simple fact that nearly all of the recent video clips of UFO >>fleets over Mexico were observed and recorded by a single >>witness suggests, to me at least, that the vast majority of >>Mexicans can distinquish between OVNIs and birds/balloons or >>that the persons with the video cameras were either honestly >>mistaken or very mischievous individuals. With continuing >>unbiased investigations, the truth will eventually be known. >Where did you get that erroneus information Nick? One single >witness for all the recent UFO fleets? This is a terrible >statement from you derived from your absolute ignorance of the >reports and the videos or maybe is a deliberated disinformation >from you? Greetings Santiago! Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant to say is that in large populated centers throughout Mexico, I find it suspicious when very often just a single witness with a video camera got to capture what was believed to be a major and historic UFO flyby in the sky overhead while the rest of Mexico was on siesta. I did not mean to imply that one person produced all the UFO fleet videos (my first language is not English and what I wrote may have seemed a like like baby talk). What I also find suspicious, and what all cautious thinking people should too, is when someone continues to produce such rare or unique UFO film/video footage with their equipment. I am not suggesting that these multiple experiencers with UFOs are hoaxers but given enough time to experiment with their cameras and all its features under various conditions they will produce results that are strange and not readily explainable to what could be otherwise very honest searchers of the skies. Could the reason why most of these separate sightings of the alleged UFO fleets over different parts of Mexico, sometimes numbering in up to 50 UFOs (OVNIs or Globos) and often covering a large part of the sky were recorded and reported by a single witness is because the Mexicans interpreted what they saw as something less exciting? Although I do not have the feedback from all the people which I shared the video that you were so kind enough to send to me, maybe I can share a few of the comments that I have so far in this e-mail. At the risk of alienating you, John Velez and my other friends who firmly believe that all these UFO fleet video clips depict UFOs that are under intelligent control but which cannot belong to us and also upsetting our colleagues Amy Hebert, James Smith and others who believe that all these UFO fleet video clips depict birds or balloons high up in the sky, let me say that the comments I got suggest that both of you may be wrong. Remember, I am just the messenger. ;o) Professional photographers are aware that light originating from a clear blue sky that is at right angles or 90 degrees from the Sun is totally polarized. When a clear polaroid filter is mounted in front of a camera lense and is rotated by the photographer (or rotates automatically when the camera lense zooms in and out to magnify the objects being photographed), a bright hazy looking sky will turn dark blue but not the clouds or other objects that were present in that hazy view which were not as obvious before. The great increase in the contrast through the use of a polaroid filter along with the large magnifications used by the video camera's zoom lens will often capture what look like massive distant fleets of UFOs slowly floating by in the sky. These UFO fleets are not ET in origin but images of highly magnified particles such as drifting dandelion seeds. Although we do not have all the facts (such as the direction the camera was pointed in the sky, etc.) to make such a positive identification, we can in the case of the videos where the UFOs (or flying seeds?) are slowly drifting directly in front of the Half Moon since the Moon has that phase only when it is located precisely at right angles from the Sun in the sky. Other UFOs taken close to the roof of a house so that it blocks the direct light from the Sun will also produce bright moving UFOs too but for different optical reasons. Each and every UFO video should be judged on its own merits and must never be dismissed outright as of no value simply because we do not have the all necessary information or know of the precise conditions that were present to allow us to make the simplest and most reasonable explanation for these UFOs. That said, we may have to accept that we may never be able to positively identify or explain with a high degree of certainty what the objects in most of these edited UFO fleet video clips are to the full satisfaction of everyone. To some these videos will still remain as important visual but anecdotal evidence that there are indeed large numbers of very massive objects under intelligent control not manufactured here on Earth that operate freely in our skies. To others, a better explanation would be that these UFOs are simply optical camera artifacts or images of objects and may not even be anything in the sky (such as dots of white paint on a window pane in front of the camera which took the pictures) or something as simple as dandelion seeds drifting overhead. Without multiple witnesses and two or more independent video clips of these alleged UFO fleets taken at the same time but from different locations, there is no way to accurately estimate the distance or the size of the UFOs and for this reason all arguments for one explanation over another remain academic. I can now better appreciate why ufologists such as Dr. J. Allen Hynek, author of 'The UFO Experience - A Scientific Inquiry'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:03:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:47:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:14:52 -1000 >Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:56 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:34:13 -1000 >>>Subject: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Europ-Union >>>Exopolitical Implications of French/Dutch rejection of the >>>European Union Constitution >><snip> >>I'm so sorry that the voters of France and the Netherlands have >>scuppered Mr Salla's plans. I suppose they were voting on >>matters such as economic growth, the euro, taxation, national >>independence, industrial policy, law, immigration and other such >>trivialities, rather than important fantasy issues like >>exopolitical whistle blowers. >>I can hardly wait for the British referendum (if Tone lets us >>have one) when we will also have the opportunity to vote yes to >>UFO disclosure, courtesy of M. Chirac. >>Wow! >Aloha John, >Wow indeed. You ascribe plans to me that I wasn't aware of. I >didn't realize that my 'plans' entailed an acceptance of the >French/Dutch referenda. You must enlighten me here and share >your magical insights into my motivations for Europe. I thought you were suggesting that Europe, or some European nations, deprived of the possibility of creating a united defence and foreign policy by voters; rejection of the new 'constitution' (a document as unlike the noble US Constitution as it is possible to imagine) would try to trump the US by releasing UFO 'secrets' individually. Or have I got your argument wrong? >As for exopolitical whistleblowers, is the fantasy you are >refering to that they exist, They exist, obviously, you've spoken to them > that the things they claim are >real, Now that's another kettle of fish! >or that Europeans care about what whistleblowers like >Philip Corso have to say? If the latter, then please take a look >at the Cometa Report where Col Corso is mentioned and the >implications of his testimony for UFO research are discussed. >Are these former French generals, scientists indulging in some >Euro fantasy which somehow coincide with my exopolitical plans? I doubt that more than one in a thousand Europeans have ever heard of Mr Corso, and even fewer care about what he has to say. The Cometa report is far from being an official French Government document and it is clear that the various ex-generals and scientists involved in its creation did have some agenda of their own in compiling it. Probably trying to get more money for 'further research' from the European taxpayer. >As for the indefinitely delayed British referendum on the Euro >constitution, again your ability to find connections when I see >none is magical. Did you attend divination school? Sorry, but did you not start this thread by discussing the 'exopolitical' implications of the French and Dutch referenda? Then I see no reason why we British should be excluded from the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone From: Greg Boone <MEvolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:49:35 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? >What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk like >this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men of >Updates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers >marginally >off course from a scientific direction? >This will never do. It is alarming and threatening the reality I >have come to cherish. >Perhaps it's because it's summer and everyone's brains are >addled. Then bring on winter and hard nosed reality. >Or perhaps Rich Reynolds has it right? >A Paradigm Shift? >http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/ >Where are my flying saucers please. I haven't finished playing >with them yet. I want my toys back. >Stuart Miller I was about to ask the same Stuart but y'know I had to sit back and look at what I used to believe, what I used to think I knew and what criteria I hold toward others, what criteria others hold for others and likewise what criteria is held to me. I lost. I recall years ago when someone introduced past lives, reincarnation into a study and debate. My knee jerk reaction was 'Oh no, what nonsense now?'. Luckily I had teachers and professors and parents who had taught me the value of objectivity and granting another's viewpoints. Then it hit me like a thunderbolt that there were far more people on Earth who believe and have solid evidence for past lives and reincarnation. I had to look at my own beliefs and realize how crazy would my religious beliefs sound to someone who'd never heard of Christianity or Judaism. Convincing people of resurrections from the dead and defying the laws of physics with only ancient stories isn't a matter of science but of faith. So Ufological research does indeed delve into the realm of spirituality. So does theoretical physics. Are we so retentive that we won't allow another viewpoint even when it's based in science? How much of our global spirituality has been validated or invalidated by solid scientific research? I remember as a kid, a theologian from Egypt, a top Egyptologist too told me that in Africa science and religion aren't separate. It's only some odd Western viewpoint that science and religion are automatically adversarial. Shades of Galileo and a bunch of guys who just told it as they saw it and got the works. Science isn't explaining fully what's going on with Ufology. So let's meld religious perception with solid instrumental documentation and see what we can glean. Ufology and religion scare people. Only evil ID-Operating people who are afraid that some truth or some new means of finding the truth of some hidden deed may come forth. If tomorrow, some genius were to invent an infallable truth/lie detecting technology our world would change instantly. I for one would like to hear from the scientists on board here and their philosophies about science. Would be a great platform for those new folks to get from a scientist what is valuable in the pursuit of science. Experience is the most valuable commodity and I'm sure there's a ton of professional experience round these parts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:52:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:55:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >Since you are a regular guest on Errol Bruce-Knapp's 'Strange >Days... Indeed', if you listened in to Saturday night's show you >already have the answer as to why I believe this particular >video to be a fake. If not, I refer you to Santiago Yturria Garza's >post to the List on Saturday: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jun/m11-01.shtml >Santiago shared the same suspicions for the same reasons I have >that this video is too good to be true in private e-mail to me. Hi Nick, I'm can't speak to whether the footage is fake or not but I can speak to the contention that the google cache of the "Signs From The Sky" page proves that images from the footage were there before June 5th. It does not prove that. Google caches do not save images but rather the file names of images. The images that appeared in that original cache that Santiago pointed out were only there because the temporary file names that were used for them happened to be the same as the original files that were there. (ie p1s.jpg, p2s.jpg, p3s.jpg etc) To illustrate this, here is the cache of my homepage from June 13, 2005 (4:42am GMT) = June 12, 2005 (11:42pm CDT) http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:w_bzcTH171AJ:www.terrygroff.com/+&hl=en&lr= lang_en%20target=nw Notice the negative color image of the boy on the bicycle. That image was not placed on that page until today June 13, 2005 (7pm CDT). It merely has the same file name. The cached page would make it seem like the image was there earlier but I assure you it wasn't. (I just hope Google doesn't do a new cache of my homepage before you see this post.) Perhaps Santiago had seen similar images before but I'm not
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: Deniers Denied - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:14:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:53:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Deniers Denied - Velez >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0500 >Subject: Deniers Denied >We - the ufological progressives and sincere truth- seekers? - >have endured "skeptibunkies" and "noisy-negativists" in the >past and from the start. These bridge-trolls... I almost wet myself the first time I heard you use the term 'bridge-troll' in reference to a skeptibunker. I must admit, it doesn't lose it's punch the second time around either! <LOL> >Simply, they hijack the internet making all the trouble for them >in the first place, and produce snappy little blogs or richly >appointed little web-sites, charming little focal points for >personal assaults, attacks on livelihood, and other organized >tactics of the, cognitively _bigoted_ and the cluelessly >_intolerant_. Hey man, Hell hath no fury like a bored house-frau with a website! >And Lately, friends and neighbors - one of these charming little >activities have singled _me_ out, (among much more significant >and deserving others I should say) as not only a clear and >present danger to an accepted ufology, brothers and sisters, but >as a clear and present danger to humanity itself! >To quote the charge, I must be _stopped_, reader, or you are at >peril! No freedom of speech eh? Must be Republicans! ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Hatch >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? >What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk like >this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men of >UpDates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers marginally >off course from a scientific direction? >This will never do. It is alarming and threatening the reality >I have come to cherish. >Perhaps it's because it's summer and everyone's brains are >addled. Then bring on winter and hard nosed reality. >Or perhaps Rich Reynolds has it right? A Paradigm Shift? >http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/ >Where are my flying saucers please. I haven't finished playing with them yet. I want my toys back. Hello Stuart: Its possible some grumpy realists have just left in disgust. More likely they are letting the demonists etc. have their say while they do something else. Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at all. Neither study does the other any real good. There are other forums where religion and the like are freely and intelligently discussed, and I think that's where such matters rightly belong. This is a UFO forum - note title: UFO UpDates - as in tangible physical objects, in the here and now, rather than something spiritual. I see no 'paradigm shift', just some different contributors here for a while. Now back to ufology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:44:37 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:57:48 -0400 Subject: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth Pilots report UFO smashing up meteor before hitting Earth
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 14 New & Old Moon Anomaly Comparisons From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:48:55 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:59:42 -0400 Subject: New & Old Moon Anomaly Comparisons
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 24 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:57:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:47:13 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 24 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 24 June 15, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ SMALL REPTOID SPOTTED IN NORTHERN GREECE Villagers in a suburb of Katerini, a small city at the foot of Mount Olympus in northern Greece, claim to have seen a brown Reptoid prowling around their homes. The report came on the heels of persistent reports of silvery UFOs in the skies over that stretch of the Aegean Sea coast, from Katerini to Thessaloniki, 100 kilometers (60 miles) to the north. Residents of the Katerini area are wondering if the Reptoid is a scout for an alien force. Or if he is perhaps an escaped prisoner or slave from the large alien underground base on Mount Olympus. "I would like to report numerous UFO sightings in northern Greece near Mount Olympus," correspondent Yannis Ioannou reported, "There were four witnesses--my father, age 60; my mother, age 55; my sister, 33; and my cousin, 40. The location is a small village by the sea between Katerini and the city of Thessaloniki." "The main phenomenon here has been unidentified flying objects (UFOs) during the night and sometimes during the day. They say they look like 'spheres made of mirror.' They're really shiny and make no sound at all. They're travelling really fast, making it impossible for my family to grab a camera and photograph them." Throughout the area, Yannis added, there are "persistent rumours that there is an underground base on Mount Olympus. Many magazines have done feature stories regarding the matter. Credible researchers like (Greek ufologist) Mr. Hardavelas have also produced documentaries trying to reveal the truth." The Reptoid sighting happened in April. Danae Metaxas, "my cousin, 40, and her husband," Spiro, "saw the entity numerous times inside their house. They also tried to capture it, but the entity was moving really fast, and it seemed it had the ability to disappear suddenly. This sighting happened during the nighttime." Danae and her husband "described the entity as really short, only 0.9 meters (3 feet) tall, with reptilian brownish skin and with white hair. The couple was so terrified that they started seeking help from the (Greek Orthodox) Church and numerous religious people. They thought it was a demon or something." "The clothes that the creature was wearing were similar to what Arabic people wear," i.e. a burnoose like in Algeria or a galabaa like in Iraq. "My folks--who are extremely serious people--already believe that there is something going on out there. Nothing has been reported to the (Greek) authorities, and, in my opinion, that's a good decision, as the government probably already knows about these activities." Yannis is now looking for more witnesses who may have seen the Reptoid. "Probably there are more witnesses in the village." (Email Form Report) JAPAN TO LAUNCH A SUBTERRENE TO VISIT EARTH'S CORE "Japanese scientists are to explore the center of the Earth. Using a drill ship (subterrene or tunneler--J.T.) to be launched next month, the researchers want to be the first to poke a hole through the rocky crust that covers our planet and to reach the mantle." "The team wants to return samples from the mantle, 10 kilometers (6 miles) down, to learn more about what triggers undersea earthquakes, such as the one off Sumatra that caused the December 26, 2004 (Indian Ocean) tsunami. They hope to study the deep rocks for records of past climate changes and to see if the deepest regions of the Earth could harbor life." "Asahiko Taira, director-general of the Center for Deep Earth Exploration in Yokohama, said, 'One of the main purposes for doing this is to find deep fractures within the oceanic crust and upper mantle. We believe there to be life forms there. It's the same mission as searching for life on Mars.'" "Material in the upper mantle produces compounds essential for life when they interact with seawater. 'This is the system which we believe created early life. There may be a chance we can watch the origins of life still taking place today,' Dr. Taira said." "The 57,500-ton drill ship Chikyu (Japanese for Earth--A.T.) is being prepared at the southern port of Nagasaki. Two-thirds the length of the R.M.S. Titanic, the ship is fitted with technology borrowed from the oil industry that will allow it to bore through 7,000 meters (23,100 feet) of crust below the seabed while floating in 2,500 meters (8,250 feet) of water. The ship requires a drill measuring 25 times the height of (New York City's) Empire State Building," i.e. 32,500 feet or 9,750 meters. "The deepest hole drilled through the seabed so far has reached 2,111 meters (6,966 feet). After final sea trials this year, the scientists will set sail for the deep Pacific, where the Earth's crust is the thinnest. Drilling is expected to begin next year." "It could take more than a year to drill through kilometers of crust and reach the mantle, so the ship is fitted with six rotating thrusters controlled by GPS satellites to keep it directly over the hole. The drill is surrounded by a sleeve that contains a shock-absorbing chemical and a blowout valve that will protect it should the drill strike oil or superheated rock (magma--J.T.) within the crust." (See the Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun for June 6, 2005. Many thanks to Angela Tarohachi for this newspaper article.) (Editor's Note: This may be Japan's first subterrene, but evidence exists showing that the USA already has a number of these strange vehicles. For more, see this issue's feature story.) UFOs SIGHTED TWICE IN NEW YORK STATE On Monday, June 6, 2005, at 9 a.m., Christopher Murphy saw a strange object approaching from the west in his hometown of Holbrook, N.Y. (population 27,512). "I was watching the road closely during my drive to work," Chris reported, "And in front of me, I saw a distinct white shape in the clouds. It was huge but seemed to disappear when I looked directly at it. The object was heart-shaped, and it was clear sky where the object was, with clouds surrounding it." Holbrook, N.Y. is on Route 495 on Long Island, about 40 miles (64 kilometers) east of New York City. Thirteen hours later, on Monday, June 6, 2005, at 10:35 p.m., Mario Obregon was "walking to my car, parked at the far east end of the company I work for," in Port Washington, N.Y. (population 15,215), when "I noticed two bright lights traveling from east to west. Not very high and traveling at speeds similar to the small planes that fly over the area." "There was no noise at all." "I kept watching the lights as I was walking to my car. As the lights passed above and just to my right, I noticed that the distance (gap--M.O.) between them began to broaden a bit. A few seconds later, the two lights split. One went northwest, and the other kept traveling west. Very strange." "Speed was the same throughout the flight. They weren't blinking, just two white lights. I lost track of them as the one traveling northwest disappeared behind the building I work in. The other dipped behind some tall trees." Port Washington is on the north shore of Long Island, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) east of New York City. (Email Form Report) DAYLIGHT DISC SIGHTED IN BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA On June 6, 2005, at 6:22 a.m., Markius Latourneau was at the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) station on Shattuck Avenue in Berkeley, California (population 102,743) when he spotted a silvery saucer passing overhead. "I caught a glimpse of an aerial phenomenon at 6:22 a.m.," Markius reported, "In my line of sight, it moved from north to south without making a sound. It appeared to be climbing at one point. The whole incident lasted less than 20 seconds. I was standing on Shattuck Avenue outside the Bay Area Rapid Transit station, heading to work. I was not able to identify the object I saw, and it behaved in a way that was not indicative of any earthly aircraft. I couldn't say for sure if anyone else saw the object I saw, but what I witnessed was remarkable." "The object was silver in color and looked oval and slightly elongated. The object appeared to be two miles (3,200 meters) above ground and was traveling at about 300 miles per hour (500 kilometers per hour--J.T.) As it moved and climbed, it became stationary for maybe 18 seconds, then faded and dissipated." (Email Form Report) CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN CANADA AND THE NETHERLANDS Canada reported its first crop circle of 2005 last week. On Friday, June 3, 2005, a crop circle was found in a field of grass in Sandy Bay, Manitoba. Three days later, the site was investigated by members of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network (CCCRN) Manitoba chapter. According to CCCRN spokesman Paul Anderson, the formation consisted of "an unusual 'miniature dumbbell' in short grass, approximately 3.3 meters (10 feet) in diameter and similar in shape to early 1990s formations in England. Each end circle (dumbbell--J.T.) contained a set on concentric circles. Whether the grass at the site is flattened or dead is not yet known." On Sunday, May 22, 2005, "a crop circle was discovered near Doetinchem, in the Gunderland province of the Netherlands. The lay of the grass was counter- clockwise. The people who are living next to the field could tell that the ring was not the result of a breeze moving in circles. There was nothing special to see in the center--no hole and no footprints. The ring measured 13 to 15 meters (44 to 50 feet) in diameter." Doetinchem is 70 kilometers (42 miles) southeast of Amsterdam, the national capital, and 25 kilometers (15 miles) east of Arnhem, the site of Operation Market Garden, a famous battle of World War II. (Many thanks to Paul Anderson and Robert Fischer for these reports.) TITAN MAY HAVE AN ICE VOLCANO "The possible discovery of an ice volcano on Saturn's moon, Titan, may solve one of the lingering mysteries about the strange satellite with the smog-choked atmosphere." "Scientists have wondered for decades where the methane in Titan's atmosphere came from. Titan, Saturn's largest moon, is the only moon in the solar system with a substantial atmosphere. Most of that atmosphere is nitrogen, with up to 3 percent of it composed of methane." "Investigators theorized that it could have come from a methane-rich hydrocarbon ocean that covered much of the moon. But instruments aboard the Cassini spacecraft, which has been investigating the moon since late last year, have failed to turn up evidence of such a sea." "A recent fly-by of Titan has now produced an image of a circular feature about 19 miles (31 kilometers) in diameter with two wings extending to the west, scientists reported Thursday," June 9, 2005, "in the journal Nature." "Scientists believe the wings represent repeated flows from a volcano that spews ice and liquid methane, instead of molten rock. Researchers have noted similar physical features surrounding volcanoes on Earth and Venus." "This raises the possibility that the atmospheric methane comes from a subsurface source of liquid methane that is vented to the atmosphere by erupting volcanoes." "The eruptions are possibly caused by heat generated by tidal movements in the liquid methane inside Titan." "'We all thought volcanoes had to exist on Titan, and now we've found the most convincing evidence to date,' said Bonnie Buratti, a member of the team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in Pasadena, California "analyzing results of Cassini's infrared mapping spectrometer. 'This is exactly what we've been looking for.'" (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for June 12, 2005, "Possible ice volcano found on Saturn's largest moon, Titan," page 15A.) From the UFO Files... 1972: SUBTERRENE X-1 The plans of Japanese scientists to send a drill ship to pierce the Earth's crust on the Pacific Ocean floor has called attention once again to the subterrene debate. Namely, do Earth's military powers, particularly the USA, have subterrenes or "tunnelers" capable of traveling through unconsolidated rock beneath the Earth's surface? There is interesting evidence that the USA worked on just such a project during the 1970s and the 1980s. On January 8, 1971, the U.S. Patent Office received a strange application from "the Armstrong group," a bunch of scientists in New Mexico. The group wanted to patent "a machine and method for drilling bore holes and tunnels by melting in which a housing is provided for a heat source and a heated end portion and in which the necessary melting heat is delivered to the walls of the end portion at a rate sufficient to melt rock and during operation of which the molten material may be disposed adjacent to the boring zone in cracks in the rock and in a vitreous (glass) wall lining of the tunnel so formed." (Editor's Note: By a strange twist of fate, the patent application was filed on Elvis Presley's thirty- sixth birthday.) The proposal, advanced by Dale E. Armstrong of Santa Fe, N.M. and Berthus B. McInteer, Robert L. Mills, Robert M. Potter, Eugene S. Robinson, John C. Rowley and Morton C. Smith, all of Los Alamos, N.M., called for the construction of a nuclear-powered tunneling machine, "designed to convert the rock that it excavates into a molten liquid" that lines the walls of its tunnel--a wheeled vehicle that could move under the land the same way a submarine travels underwater. The patent for the Armstrong group's design was approved on September 26, 1972. In his classic book Underground Bases and Tunnels, Dr. Richard Sauder gives a brief history of the mysterious "Subterrene Affair." "The nuclear subterrene (rhymes with submarine--R.S.) was designed at Los Alamos National Laboratory, in New Mexico. A number of patents were filed by scientists at Los Alamos, a few federal technical documents were written--and then the whole thing just sort of faded away." "Or did it?" "Nuclear subterrenes work by melting their way through the rock and soil, actually vitrifying it as they go and leaving a neat, solidly glass-lined tunnel behind them. The heat is supplied by a compact nuclear reactor that circulates liquid lithium from the reactor core to the tunnel face, when it melts the rock. In the process of melting the rock, the lithium loses some of its heat. It is then circulated back along the exterior of the tunneling machine to help cool the vitrified rock as the tunneling machine forces its way forward. The cooled lithium then circulates back to the (nuclear) reactor where the whole cycle starts over. In this way, the nuclear subterrene slices through the rock like a nuclear- powered, 2,000-degree Fahrenheit earthworm, boring its way deep underground." "The United States Atomic Energy Commission and the United States Energy Research and Development Administration took out the patents in the 1970s for the nuclear subterrenes. The first patent, in 1972, went to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission." (Editor's Note: The second patent for subterrenes was issued on May 6, 1975.) Dr. Sauder wrote that the second patent "was for 'a tunneling machine for producing large tunnels in soft rock or wet, clayey, unconsolidated or bouldery earth by simultaneously detaching the tunnel core by thermal melting a boundary kerf into the tunnel face and forming a supporting excavation wall liner by deflecting the molten materials against the excavation walls to provide, when solidified, a continuous wall supporting liner, and detaching the tunnel face circumscribed by the kerf with powered mechanical earth detachment means and in which the heat required for melting the kerf and liner material is provided by a compact nuclear reactor.'" "This 1975 patent further specifies that the machine is intended to excavate tunnels up to 12 meters (40 feet) in diameter or more." "The kerf is the outside boundary of the tunnel wall that a boring machine gouges out as it bores through the ground or rock. So, in ordinary English, this machine will melt a circular boundary into the tunnel face. The melted rock will be forced to the outside of the tunnel by the tunnel machine, where it will form a hard, glassy tunnel lining." "And yet a third patent was issued to the United States Energy Research and Development Administration just 21 days later, on 27 May 1975, for a machine remarkably similar to the machine patented on 6 May 1975." "The abstract describes, 'A tunneling machine for producing large tunnels in rock by progressive detachment of the tunnel core by thermal melting a boundary kerf into the tunnel face and simultaneously forming an initial tunnel wall support by deflecting the molten materials against the tunnel walls to provide, when solidifed, a continuous liner; and fragmenting the tunnel core circumscribed by the kerf by thermal stress fracturing and in which the heat required for such operations is supplied by a compact nuclear reactor.'" "This machine would also be capable of making a glass-lined tunnel of 40 feet (12 meters) in diameter or more." "Perhaps some of my readers have heard the same rumors that I have heard swirling in the UFO literature or on the UFO grapevine: stories of deep, secret, glass- walled tunnels excavated by laser-powered tunneling machines. I do not know if these stories are true. If they are, however, it may be that the glass-walled tunnels are made by the nuclear subterrenes described in these patents." Apparently, sometime in February or March of 1975, during President Gerald R. Ford's administration, a top- secret Request for Proposals (RFP) went out from the Defense Department, inviting design teams to submit proposals for workable subterrenes. Two proposals were accepted, and both were granted patents in May of 1975. Were the prototype subterrenes ever built? Good question! For years, your editor has heard rumors of strange glass-walled tunnels found under private range lands in Monero, New Mexico, 10 miles (16 kilometers) east of Dulce, a town that made its mark in UFO history. Then there were the equally strange cases of subterranean hums heard in Floyds Knobs and Kokomo, Indiana. Could the people there have heard a subterrene passing beneath their community? It could be that the subterrene plans simply gathered dust on the shelf. Then again, perhaps at this very moment Subterrene X- 1 is cruising beneath the sands of Iraq's Anbar province, hunting for insurgents. (See the book Underground Bases and Tunnels: What is the Government Trying to Hide? by Richard Sauder, Ph.D., Adventures Unlimited Press, Kempton, Illinois, 1995, pages 94 through 97.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth--and occasionally, Saturn--brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you next time! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Smallest Extrasolar Planet Yet From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:30:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:49:22 -0400 Subject: Smallest Extrasolar Planet Yet Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4089534.stm Astronomers have detected the smallest extrasolar planet yet: a world about seven and a half times as massive as Earth, orbiting a star much like ours. <snip> Hello LIst, Two facts not often stressed by media i) they're finding many planets wrong-size, wrong place, wrong speeds for our recent Newtonian planetary theories (see "blind science" Google) ii) methods of detection mean we can't "see" an Earth-sized planet anyway So - it's getting much likelier that Earth-sized planets are all over the place - and some a lot closer than we thought. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Secrecy News -- 06/14/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:17:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:51:18 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/14/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 55 June 14, 2005 ** ASSESSING THE TERRORIST THREAT TO MILK ** EXTREME SECURITY PROPOSALS FLOURISH ** DEFENDING SCIENTIFIC OPENNESS ** NATIONAL BIODEFENSE ANALYSIS CENTER (CRS) ** WHO LOVES THE SUN? ASSESSING THE TERRORIST THREAT TO MILK A scientific paper discussing the possibility of a terrorist attack on the U.S. milk supply was scheduled for publication in the prestigious Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) last month until the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) intervened, calling it a "road map for terrorists," and asked the journal to withdraw the paper. In response to the HHS objections, PNAS agreed to delay publication for an indefinite period. But some scientists who have reviewed the paper say it should be rebutted rather than censored, since it is based on a series of alarmist assumptions that are objectively unsupported. Despite the HHS concerns, one of the paper's authors, Stanford business professor Lawrence M. Wein, went on to make his case on the New York Times op-ed page on May 30 in a piece entitled "Got Toxic Milk?" According to the scenario presented by Prof. Wein in the New York Times, "a terrorist, using a 28-page manual called 'Preparation of Botulism Toxin' that has been published on several jihadist Web sites and buying toxin from an overseas black-market laboratory, fills a one-gallon jug with a sludgy substance containing a few grams of botulin. He then sneaks onto a dairy farm and pours its contents into an unlocked milk tank, or he dumps it into the tank on a milk truck while the driver is eating breakfast at a truck stop." Hundreds of thousands could die, he warned. But this is a grotesque exaggeration, argued scientific critics Milton Leitenberg and George Smith. For one thing, the jihadi manual cited by Wein, which they reviewed, "does not explain, except in the most general terms, how to obtain a toxic strain of Clostridium botulinum in the first place." Moreover, "in the real world no 'black market' botulinum toxin producer is known to exist." Based on their review of the unpublished but widely circulated PNAS paper, Leitenberg and Smith concluded that Wein may have overstated the consequences of his proposed terrorist scenario by a factor of one billion! "There is therefore an extraordinary degree of uncertainty associated with Dr. Wein's estimates," they wrote. "The analysis of real and practical intelligence reveals a vastly different, more complicated, and much less frightening picture." Leitenberg and Smith prepared their own critique of Wein's op-ed and submitted it to the New York Times op-ed page. The Times declined to publish it, since "As a matter of policy, we do not publish rebuttals on the op-ed page." A copy of that rebuttal, with the authors' introduction, is posted here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/milk.html EXTREME SECURITY PROPOSALS FLOURISH With the breakdown of the deliberative process on every level -- from Congress to the New York Times op-ed page -- there are fewer and fewer venues for identifying errors of fact or judgment in policymaking, and correcting them. The result is an efflorescence of weirdly inflated threats and half-baked proposals to combat them. There is the electromagnetic pulse (EMP) threat, whereby a nuclear explosive detonated in the atmosphere could disable unshielded electrical systems. "Ninety-nine percent of Americans may not know very much about EMP," said Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD) on the House floor last week, "but I will assure you, Mr. Speaker, that 100 percent of our potential enemies know all about EMP." "Terrorists could steal, purchase, or be provided a nuclear weapon and perform an EMP attack against the United States simply by launching a primitive Scud missile off a freighter near our shores." >From that it supposedly follows that the US should spend untold billions of dollars to harden our infrastructure against such an attack. See Rep. Bartlett's June 9 statement on the subject here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/h060905.html Then there is the fertilizer threat. Legislation introduced by Sen. Thad Cochran last month would regulate the sales of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Such fertilizer was infamously used as an explosive in the Oklahoma City bombing ten years ago. But OKC bomber Timothy McVeigh used nearly five thousand pounds of ammonium nitrate in his 1995 attack. Senator Cochran's proposed legislation would require monitoring the sale of even the smallest quantity of such fertilizer sold by innumerable vendors to any home gardener. "I believe this important legislation will effectively enhance ongoing security measures and will help to keep ammonium nitrate out of the hands of those who wish to harm our nation," Sen. Cochran said. See the text of the "Secure Handling of Ammonium Nitrate Act of 2005" (S. 1141), May 26, here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/s1141.html See also "Cochran Wants Homeland Security to Clamp Down on Fertilizer, a Powerful Bomb Ingredient," CQ Homeland Security, June 6: http://www.cq.com/public/20050606A_homeland.html DEFENDING SCIENTIFIC OPENNESS Openness in scientific research is vital to national security and must be preserved, argued a distinguished panel of senior scientists and former national security officials in a new report. With the exception of research that is properly classified for national security reasons, dissemination of other scientific research should remain unrestricted as far as possible, the Commission on Scientific Communication and National Security said. This policy "does not assert that the open dissemination of unclassified research is without risk. Rather, it says that openness in research is so important to our own security -- and to other key national objectives -- that it warrants the risk that our adversaries may benefit from scientific openness as well." The authors discuss in turn each of the five mechanisms of control of scientific information: classification, export controls, "sensitive but unclassified" controls, statutory restrictions, and self-imposed restraints on publication. The result is a concise and clear-eyed perspective on a perennially contentious issue. See "Security Controls on Scientific Information and the Conduct of Scientific Research," a White Paper of the Commission on Scientific Communication and National Security, Center for Strategic and International Studies, June 2005: http://www.csis.org/hs/0506_cscans.pdf See also "Eminent panel calls for continued openness on basic research" by Lois Ember, Chemical and Engineering News, June 13: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/83/i24/8324notw7.html NATIONAL BIODEFENSE ANALYSIS CENTER (CRS) "The construction of the National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center (NBACC), with an estimated construction cost of $128 million, will be the first Department of Homeland Security laboratory specifically focused on biodefense," according to a recent report of the Congressional Research Service. The report describes the Center's mission and budget and discusses related policy issues, including oversight of the Center's activities. See "The National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center: Issues for Congress," April 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32891.pdf WHO LOVES THE SUN? The Village Voice featured the FAS Project on Government Secrecy and interviewed me in a column published online last week. See "Who Loves the Sun? Speaking with Steven Aftergood, activist against government secrecy," by George Smith, June 10: http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0524,smith,64891,24.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Landahl From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:18:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:19:26 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Landahl >From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:10:16 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? >>What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >>And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk like >>this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men of >>Updates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers marginally >>off course from a scientific direction? >Sometimes a dip into epistemology, teleology, ontology, and >logic can be a bracing refresher! >; >) Dear List Members, Yes Ray, perhaps an occasional dip in a different stream can be a refreshing change of pace. However, to all Listers to whom this request may be appropriate: please end the intense expressions of anger and personal dislike that have colored the list recently, whether these expressions be stated or implied. Please fight your UFO-related battles on list without the taint of commentary consisting of your feelings about another's personality - whether the personal commentary is accurately applied or not. It is not necessary for one's feelings about another person to be posted on Llist. It detracts from the effectiveness of this List and certainly makes it a less attractive forum. You can easily question another's motives, another's investigative techniques, another's conclusions, etc. without resorting to crass insult and innuendo. Please return to civility.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Visions Of A Subterranean Wonderworld From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:06:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:05 -0400 Subject: Visions Of A Subterranean Wonderworld Source: http://www.softcom.net/users/vtown/forgottenart.html The Forgotten Art Of Richard Shaver "Few people today remember Richard Shaver. Those who do - mostly Ufologists and science fiction buffs - often have only a vague idea of his career, and an even vaguer idea of his paintings. In
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:02:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:26:09 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Hatch >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:43:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 >>Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >I know it may sound like whining to you and Mr. Velez, but it >would be a great public service to both: >1) ardent supporters of the trueness of the Mexican UFO >"collections" videos and >2) those hardheaded others who reserve endorsement of such >claims until further analysis is performed >if you or some public minded citizen would provide a list of >the Mexican "collection/fleet/flock/swarm" videos and the film >date, film location, film type, camera type, film time, filmer >name and a link to the relevant video. Witness/filmer report >would be nice. >And if you want to provide a list of such cases with no videos but are photos or just reports, then that would be nice. >Maybe I am being too lazy, but I can't speak Spanish and get >tired of translating web pages. Agreed. A catalog of all recent Mexico films, videos and photos (if any) could be very useful. Each one should have Date, Time of day, Location, who took the image(s), and any technical data. Links to still photos or freeze-frames would be really good. There are a lot of people like myself on slow dial-up connections that cannot download long videos, and some cannot display them for lack of the proper software.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Alien Thinking - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:44:46 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:28:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Thinking - Gottschall >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:18:19 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Alien Thinking >>From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:18:55 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Alien Thinking >>>From: Will Beuche - John E Mack Institute >><info.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:47:04 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Thinking >>><snip> >>I have placed two videos on my website which will likely be >>found interesting by a large majority of this >>list...including, hopefully, Mr. Beuche. >>http://www.aionblog.com/?postid=41 >Hello Shane, <snip> >And I wouldn't moan too much about why only us Brits get >this kind of quality programming because I am quite sure that a >talent like Derren will indeed cross the Atlantic sooner or >later. Hi Stuart, Shane and List, For those who don't know there's also someone else in the US to check out called David Blaine. He's a fantastic illusionist and there was a show on Discovery (I think) some time back where I watched him levitate in front of people. The reason he's so damned convincing is that he performs street magic. He just walks up to people on the street and says, "hey, have a look at this." Then he levitates right in front of them. What was more fascinating was the reaction by people, many who just ran away in disbelief and fright. I was so fascinated by that I took the video clip to one of our UFO meetings to observe for myself how people would react watching it. It was also amazing. Some said straight out it's a trick, but not as many as I would have thought. Many were of the opinion there are enlightened beings on this planet and he might be one of them. I was watching people at the meeting react similarly to some of the people Blaine approached. There was hysterical laughter, dumbfoundedness and fear of the unknown which manifests in so many different ways in people. I kept thinking to myself, replace this excellent and hard to deny levitation trick with an alien and just see what happens. Ther'd be everything from people running off wildly in fear gathering vigilante groups to wipe out all the aliens they could find, to the establishment of ET churches and temples built for the alien saviours.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel? From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:30:54 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:30:09 -0400 Subject: The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel? Before "The War Of The Worlds" There Was The Germ Growers - 1892 A few years ago I sat down in the NSW State Library in Sydney Australia and read an obscure novel - "The Germ Growers - An Australian Story of Adventure and Mystery" - published way back in 1892. While it's authorship was attributed in one edition to Robert Easterley & John Wilbraham, they were in fact the central fictional characters - two young English chaps who eventually come into contact with an alien "heart of darkness" in the Kimberley area of Western Australia - coincidentally home of the Wanjina (or Wanjina - see my earlier post). The real author was an Australian priest - Robert Potter - a canon of St. Paul's Anglican Church in North Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Reading the novel one can perhaps readily understand why it didn't capture the public imagination in England or Australia and languishing instead as a hidden oddity - perhaps the world's first science fiction novel focusing on an alien invasion - fully 5 years before H.G. Well's classic of the genre - "The War of the Worlds" (1897) - entered our imagination and took a permanent hold, particularly with Orson Welles famous 1938 Martian Invasion radio broadcast, George Pals' 1953 filmic Americanisation, Jeff Wayne's 1978 musical (with Richard Burton), and now in June 2005 with a majoring rebirthing via Steven Spielberg's blockbuster treatment. Potter (1831-1908) gave us a florid tale of aliens from the ethereal dimensions of outer space who have set up "beach heads" in remote locales, intent on laying waste to humankind via germ warfare. Our young English adventurers discover the Kimberley outpost, bearing witness to the activities of the alien's flying craft - "invisible aerial cars" - and the sinister alien leader Signor Niccolo Davelli. Salvation from this cosmic invasion comes in the form of alien invervention - Leafar, ye of the good alien types. Leafar, read Rafael the "angel", and Davelli (the Devil) and you get the drift of Canon Potter's religious SF tract. Yes Potter plays out a cosmic war between good and evil - a theme revisited in the occult baggage served up in much of the contactee credo of the 1950s - but his tale replete with "alien abduction", "UFOs", and contact, was probably offered up as a clever reselling of godly redemption (if of course one chooses the right side in the cosmic war) something he may have thought might have had more popular appeal than his Tractarian publications - "A Voice from the Church in Australia" (1864), "An examination of Secularism" (1883), and "Replies to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne" (1895). Religious agendas intermixed with alien themes is certainly a popular theme - check out "The Gods have landed - New Religions from Other Worlds" edited by James Lewis (1995) and "UFO Religions" edited by Christopher Partridge (2003). Susan Palmer offers an interesting study with "Aliens Adored - Rael's UFO Religion" (Rutgers University Press, 2004). Further anchor points and alternative perspectives may be found in such studies as "The Lure of the Edge - Scientific Passions, Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs" by Brenda Denzler (University of California Press, 2001), and "Heavenly Lights - the Apparitions of Fatima and the UFO Phenomenon" by Portuguese historians Joaquim Fernandes and Fina D'Armada (2005) (a theme visited by Jacques Vallee in his book "The Invisible College" (1975) and in potent fictional form in John Fowles' striking novel "A Maggot" (1985). If you want to see the cover of the Germ Growers I have placed an image at: http://theozfiles.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:31:43 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Tonnies >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at >all. Neither study does the other any real good. I think there are enough reports of apparently structured unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this aspect is sheer timidity. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:16:07 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? >>What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >>And more importantly, why are people being allowed to talk >>like >>this without intervention from the GOMOU's (Grumpy Old Men >>of >>UpDates) who normally pounce on any heretic who veers >>marginally >>off course from a scientific direction? >>This will never do. It is alarming and threatening the reality >>I have come to cherish. >>Perhaps it's because it's summer and everyone's brains are >>addled. Then bring on winter and hard nosed reality. >>Or perhaps Rich Reynolds has it right? A Paradigm Shift? >>http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/ >>Where are my flying saucers please. I haven't finished >>playing >>with them yet. I want my toys back. >Hello Stuart: >Its possible some grumpy realists have just left in disgust. >More likely they are letting the demonists etc. have their say >while they do something else. >Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at all. Neither >study does the other any real good. >There are other forums where religion and the like are freely >and intelligently discussed, and I think that's where such >matters rightly belong. >This is a UFO forum - note title: UFO UpDates - as in tangible >physical objects, in the here and now, rather than something >spiritual. >I see no 'paradigm shift', just some different contributors here >for a while. Now back to ufology. Larry, well said! Sure religion is part of the research into UFOs. Religion is part of every aspect of our lives. It's not that religion conflicts with science, it's that both religion and science have yet to thwart that mechanism in us that has to have a conflict no matter what it is. It's an ID thing, an unconcious mind thing I'ld wager. Physical proof is the toughest thing in ufology. I've never, ever seen such a measure of resistance and stonewalling on a subject in my life outside of police brutality investigations. It's uncanny! But we have people like you to keep us focused so we'll be okay. Soon, somebody will lasso that scrap of metal or video or whatever and we'll see what's what. In the meantime we should emphasize the value of taking that extra college course on investigation or whatever it takes to prune the skills that help investigation. Things could be far worse. We could have ended up on some reality show like 'Nanny 911' with a name like 'Ufology 911' where every week someone visits a Ufology debate to put some order in or some Ufologist visits a hot debate on UFOs and sets the record straight. Stranger things have happened.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:32:10 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:34:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Boone >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:44 EDT >>Subject: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>Just wondering if anyone's got an update on tracking >>abductees? >>I'd heard of tracking devices placed on them but hadn't heard >>of >>any results. If any please forward. >This is a good question. >Forget about Mexican UFO "collections"! I would have thought >that abductee data would be the best proof around that aliens >are visiting. >What bothers me is that with so many people claiming the >events >happen frequently to them, they do not have video proof. All we >get are these missing time anecdotes. >How are these abductions performed? I have heard stories of >people passing through walls and such. Do the people actually >even leave the room, or do they just think they are leaving the >room or is time manipulated such that they return the next >second after they leave? Pretty substantial time travel taking >place in that case. If that is true then we have little hope >against such foes. >Also, I have heard that regardless of the effort in videoing or >handcuffing the person in place, the abductors always get their >abductee and leave few traces (video malfunctions or blank, >sort >of like "Contact"). >Yet, we have scoop marks and implants. The later especially >should be definitive proof of alien visits but what gives? They >aren't? Why not? These probes by their nature should be at >least >viewable using electron or scanning tunneling microscopes to >deduce their assembly or mechanism. Even if we can't build >such >a device, we should be able to see the complex layers, >interconnections, chemical combinations, isotopes. All I have >heard is that they are unusual but not extraterrestrial in >composition. I suppose aliens might be smart enough to just >use >Earth chemicals to make their implant gear. But the >mechanisms/circuitry should be irrefutible. Are there such >detailed reports? Good! Implants are the most intriguing thing going on here. Although if I recall less than a dozen or so have been extracted by Dr. Leir? Correct me if I'm wrong. We'll need more extractions from other surgeons and examinations of the objects that the best we could say is that for some reason people have high tech devices imbedded in their bodies and it's the result of some form of surgical procedure the subject either can't place or places as some product of an abduction. It's either the smoking gun or it will be. I think we're all getting close to something. We've got to be innovative, come up with a way to record an abduction, arrest one in progress or some form of intervention, prevention, or better yet, apprehension. We've got to get out of that old " they're a millon years ahead of us " mentality as it's giving up before the race is begun. King David didn't give up and he was up against big odds too. Ya just gotta know where to put that rock :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:48:35 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:39:12 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Yturria >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:36:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 >>Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City <snip> >Greetings Santiago! >Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant to say is that in >large populated centers throughout Mexico, I find it suspicious >when very often just a single witness with a video camera got >to capture what was believed to be a major and historic UFO >fly by in the sky overhead while the rest of Mexico was on >siesta. >Could the reason why most of these separate sightings of the >alleged UFO fleets over different parts of Mexico, sometimes >numbering in up to 50 UFOs (OVNIs or Globos) and often covering >a large part of the sky were recorded and reported by a single >witness is because the Mexicans interpreted what they saw as >something less exciting? If you remember the video I sent you there were several of them recorded with more than one witness even a whole family in some cases. I can give you the exact dates for identification. The Mexican people has already an awareness on this phenomena and reacts with excitement. But not all of them have a camera at that precise moment of the sighting. But they report the sightings all the time and we have UFO videos of a same sighting provided by diferent witnesses from diferent locations. Our media has also their percentage of skepticism just like in other countries and we always request their interest on these important events witnessed by the people. As far as I know this is how the UFO Phenomena has been manifestating itself through decades. No massive hysteria, no commotion on the people etc. I can't remember a specific UFO case that produced a paralisis to a city or a convulsion among the masses. This hypotetic case would have changed the world's awareness on UFOs for sure. >I can now better appreciate why ufologists such as Dr. J. >Allen Hynek, author of 'The UFO Experience - A Scientific >Inquiry' gave low credibility or reliability values for single >witness UFO cases. Excuse me but I can't give you credit on this one. Is well known and has been said that J. Allen Hynek, former US government official debunker, the swamp gases architect and convinced skeptic decided to change his flag after reviewing so much evidences from the people but most particulary after he investigated the Lonnie Zamora case from Socorro, New Mexico.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:13:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:22:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:55:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>Since you are a regular guest on Errol Bruce-Knapp's 'Strange >>Days... Indeed', if you listened in to Saturday night's show you >>already have the answer as to why I believe this particular >>video to be a fake. If not, I refer you to Santiago Yturria Garza's >>post to the List on Saturday: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jun/m11-01.shtml >>Santiago shared the same suspicions for the same reasons I have >>that this video is too good to be true in private e-mail to me. >>I'm can't speak to whether the footage is fake or not but I >>can speak to the contention that the Google cache of the >>"Signs From The Sky" page proves that images from the footage >>were there before June 5th. >It does not prove that. Sorry Terry, but I don't buy that. Google doesn't lie and keeps a mirror of a webpage in memory named Cache, along with the date a webpage was retrieved. Google makes updates every four to eight weeks, depending on its critera and an update may be requested by a webmaster on special occasions. But, let's show all our friends and colleagues the real thing. A researcher from France made a mirror of the French Google cache _before_ UFO Theatre removed all the evidence. Here are the mentioned images and date. - the legend is in French but good enough to see the date:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 3 New Sightings Maps Of UFO Sampling Behavior From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:40:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:19 -0400 Subject: 3 New Sightings Maps Of UFO Sampling Behavior Hello all: I have added 3 new pages to my Thematics Maps Menu here: http://www.larryhatch.net/THEMEMAPS.html These are maps of sightings which seem to involve UFOs or UFO entities taking samples of all sorts of stuff. There is a map and text for North America: http://www.larryhatch.net/SMPNAM.html .. and the same for South America: http://www.larryhatch.net/SMPSAM.html .. and a likewise a third for Europe: http://www.larryhatch.net/SMPEUR.html If we are to believe the reports, all sorts of common things are sampled or grabbed (water, soil, rocks, plants animals..) but there are odd and unlikely things taken as well. I list a few of those on each page. I hope some of you find this interesting. Please feel free to pass this on to other forums.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:04 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:09:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:25:18 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>Now in the meantime consider what I actually said: It may be >>that an objective UFO phenomenon (most probably more) exists at >>the core of our subjective flying saucer mythology (and if you >>wish to deny that there is any such mythology then read no more >>because there is no hope for you). One of the objective UFO >>phenomena may be ET intrusions; I don't deny there are some >>cases which most naturally invite that interpretation, though it >>wants proof (there are other likely phenomena too, some natural, >>some due to covert human technology, which also want proof). >>But it may be that there is something _else_ going on also, >>something that catches up images of our dreams and images of the >>world and plays them back to us through the medium of our own >>experiences in a kind of playful mimicry - oddly edited, with >>strange splices and disconcerting flashes of subliminal meaning >>- in a form which is neither thing nor thought but some mode >>transcending either . . . >Very well said, Martin. I have come to very similar conclusions, >but you have a way with words on the subject that I wish I'd >thought of. I am aware of such an hypothesis, having read since a long time the books of Vallee, Keel and others. It has a lot of followers in France. Yes, ufology abounds with strange phenomena, I don't deny that, and there may be "other dimensions", even of the "supernatural" kind. But there is also an obvious "ET" problem. I criticized the analysis of Martin Shough because I am less and less patient with any discourse which results in casting doubt on the reality of UFOs as real crafts, with obvious military significance, as in the well documented cases nuclear missiles being disabled (not only in the US but also in Russia, by the way). There is no lack of proof there, contrary to what Martin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:37:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:12:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul >, >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:44:37 -0300 >Subject: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth >Pilots report UFO smashing up meteor before hitting Earth >http://www.siriusufo.org/engnews/haber.htm So Turkey has a National Examiner. I went through five reports without seeing anything matching the sensational headlines, so quit wasting my time right there. Someone should tell these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:10:18 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:14:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul >, >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:44:37 -0300 >Subject: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth >Pilots report UFO smashing up meteor before hitting Earth >http://www.siriusufo.org/engnews/haber.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:24:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Terry Groff >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >Notice the negative color image of the boy on the bicycle. That >image was not placed on that page until today June 13, 2005 (7pm >CDT). It merely has the same file name. The cached page would >make it seem like the image was there earlier but I assure you >it wasn't. >Perhaps Santiago had seen similar images before but I'm not >convinced he saw them on the "Signs" page except as cached file >names. Terry, Yes, it seems this is a file name issue, not an image issue. I was able to talk with Jeff and Brian and the scenario you describe in your post is an accurate representation of what occurred. In fact, what I was sent shows this was explained to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:33:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:25:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:41:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >This is speculative. A colleague heard from a person who claims >to practice nightly out of body experiences, ostensibly by >having the spirit body leave the physical body. An experiment >was tried where this 'astral traveller' tried sleeping in a >faraday cage. >The report was that the 'astral traveller' could not travel >through the faraday cage. >Since a cage made of 2 x 4s and window screen is relatively >cheap, this might make for an interesting experiment on the part >of a frequent abductee or two. Well, certainly it would be worth a try if one is getting abducted frequently. I had heard that Faraday cages and other electrical phenomena were supposed to affect "astral travel" and other psychic stuff. However, it seems to me that there has been no definitive confirmation that "astral travel" really exists (at least in terms of being able to astrally travel to a closed, double blind type room with numbers on the wall and coming back with those numbers). If there were then there would likely be chaos in the world!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:30:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running Source: News.Com.Au http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15620461-17001,00.html June 15, 2005 Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running By Eric Tlozek Chris Peacock didn't believe in UFOs - until he saw one two nights in a row. The retired bricklayer was star-gazing while he tried to get back to sleep at 3am on Monday. Instead he saw something that kept him awake until daybreak. "I looked at the stars and then one of them looked like it moved," he said. "It became bright, then moved up and down and made weird shapes in the sky." Mr Peacock, 53, woke his wife and showed her the object. His 20-year-old daughter also saw it as she was getting ready to go to work. He said it appeared in the sky north of his CBD apartment, over Mindil Beach and East Point. "I had always heard about UFOs and never believed in them," Mr Peacock said. "I know it wasn't a plane or a helicopter - it was doing things you know mankind cannot do." Peacock said the object continued its apparently random movement across the sky almost until dawn, when it disappeared. He dismissed it as a strange phenomenon until he saw it reappear yesterday morning. "Whenever I have woken it's been there," he said. "You would think someone else would have spotted it." Mr Peacock said he hoped more people would come forward if they had seen the object. "I don't know what to believe except that you have to see it for yourself," he said. The Territory is well-known for UFO sightings - Wycliffe Well roadhouse, 380km north of Alice Springs on the Stuart Highway, once ranked fifth in the world in a study of UFO activity. In April, tourists took photos of an object flaring brightly as it crossed the night sky in Central Australia. Experts were unable to identify the object but said it could
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Mutilated Horse Discovered In Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:39:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:33:08 -0400 Subject: Mutilated Horse Discovered In Argentina Source: CIUFOS - La Pampa Date: 06.15.05 Argentina: Mutilated Horse Discovered A mutilated horse was found in the vicinity of the Parque Raceway, located on the outskirts of Santa Rosa (La Pampa). Its death was estimated at some 15 days. The horse showed signs of missing its tongue and left ear. An oval-shaped incision was present on its left wither, along with another smaller one on its abdomen and still another in the anus and adjacent regions. The absence of the anterior and posterior lymph nodes was also observed, with incisions on the animal's fetlocks, respectively. It should be noted that there are similarities between this case and the one detected in the La Arana wilderness, where the absence of large pieces of hide on one side was documented, as well as the absence of the ears.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:10:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:34:59 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >This is a UFO forum - note title: UFO UpDates - as in tangible >physical objects, in the here and now, rather than something >spiritual. >I see no 'paradigm shift', just some different contributors here >for a while. Now back to ufology. Larry: I would hazard the observation that if you only want to discuss tangible, physical objects, Ufology is not necessarily the field for you. While I understand, appreciate, and agree with the ETH as a viable explanation for many UFO sightings, after 40 years of research, I for one still haven't had the opportunity to lay my hands on a tangible, physical extraterrestrial spacecraft of its pilot. The ETH is just one of many theories.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Argentine Hunter Has A UFO Experience From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:09:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:38:59 -0400 Subject: Argentine Hunter Has A UFO Experience Argentine Hunter Has A UFO Experience By Raul Oscar Chaves CIUFOS - La Pampa Location: Rural area west of Toay, La Pampa (Argentina) Witnesses: Two Date: December 2004 While stalking animals in a hunting preserve, two hunters witnessed a light described as "a full moon" engaging in ascent and descent movements on a hillside, subsequently coming close to the ground. The larger light =96 orange in color =96 was static while smaller multicolored lights danced around it. It is worth noting that at the time of the sighting, there was a moment of confusion, since two "full moons" were suddenly visible: the first being Earth=92s satellite and the other the unidentified flying object. It should also be mentioned that smaller lights were seen during the late afternoon, engaged in strange maneuvers. In the light of this, one of the hunters decided to leave the location, full of fear. He drove off in his pickup truck. The remaining hunter stayed back, accompanied by his powerful .30 caliber rifle with telescopic sight. In the wee hours of the morning he was stirred from his sleep by noises similar to those of wild boar, coming from the location where they had previously found a dead cow (dead of natural causes) which they employed as bait. A distance of 80 meters separated the cow from the hunter. Hearing these growls, he focused his telescopic sight on the dead cows=92 carcass, startled by the sight of a figure he identified as "an animal", surprised by its bulk and height. It was then that he decided to take the shot, hearing the characteristic noise of the impact on the body. At that moment, the entire region became illuminated by a "very powerful light" that produced whirlwinds and dirt devils with a permanent, buzzing sound. Through his rifle=92s sight, the hunter was able to see the creature again, noticing that its posterior had a tail "similar to that of an amphibian reptile". The hunter chose to wait a prudent amount of time and kept a constant watch on the location. Later on, overcoming his initial fear, and the total silence that predominated, he approached the carcass certain that he had killed the creature he had witnessed through the scope. With astonishment, he saw that the creature he had hit with the high-caliber bullet had vanished and that the cow had been moved 90 degrees from its original position, giving the appearance of having been mutilated. No traces of blood were found in the vicinity, nor tracks or any evidence corrborating the event. The witness comes from a line of professional hunters living in Santa Rosa, la Pampa, accustomed to the wilderness and spending nights waiting for their prey. The hunter is convinced, in his own words, that "...he had shot an extraterrestrial in disguise." NOTE: The charcteristics described above cause us to reflect on the absence of eyewitnesses to the mutilations, the places where said mutilations take place and the circumstances employed. This is where we can see that the UFO phenomenon goes beyond the limits of both reason and our reality. The electromagnetic spectrum visible to the human eye exists in a wavelength of between 10.6 and 10.7 meters with a frequency between 1014 and 1015 Hz. Above these frequencies, which are lower in wavelength, we find UV, X and Gamma Rays; below these frequencies and with a longer wavelength we have infrared, microwave, shortwave, TV and FM radio waves, AM waves and longwave radio. There are investigations aimed at an effort to collect and present a variety of manifestations which could take place in a level other than the visible and which could be employed by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:38:02 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:41:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:03:03 +0100 >Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:14:52 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:56 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Euro-Union >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:34:13 -1000 >>>>Subject: Implications Of French/Dutch Rejection Europ-Union >>>>Exopolitical Implications of French/Dutch rejection of the >>>>European Union Constitution >>><snip> >>>I'm so sorry that the voters of France and the Netherlands have >>>scuppered Mr Salla's plans. I suppose they were voting on >>>matters such as economic growth, the euro, taxation, national >>>independence, industrial policy, law, immigration and other such >>>trivialities, rather than important fantasy issues like >>>exopolitical whistle blowers. >>>I can hardly wait for the British referendum (if Tone lets us >>>have one) when we will also have the opportunity to vote yes to >>>UFO disclosure, courtesy of M. Chirac. >>>Wow! >>Aloha John, >>Wow indeed. You ascribe plans to me that I wasn't aware of. I >>didn't realize that my 'plans' entailed an acceptance of the >>French/Dutch referenda. You must enlighten me here and share >>your magical insights into my motivations for Europe. >I thought you were suggesting that Europe, or some European >nations, deprived of the possibility of creating a united >defence and foreign policy by voters; rejection of the new >'constitution' (a document as unlike the noble US Constitution >as it is possible to imagine) would try to trump the US by >releasing UFO 'secrets' individually. Or have I got your >argument wrong? Thanks for clarifying your position. I was offering an analysis of the referendum in terms of its implications. "You said: I'm so sorry that the voters of France and the Netherlands have scuppered Mr Salla's plans." I took that to mean that you believed that I had some pre-existing plans prior to the referendum which is what I was credulous over given I had none. After the referendum result, my analysis of France's (exo)political position was that it would release UFO related information. This is still just my analysis of the French situation rather than any 'plan' on my part which is what I took exception to. >>As for exopolitical whistleblowers, is the fantasy you are >>refering to that they exist, >They exist, obviously, you've spoken to them >>that the things they claim are >>real, >Now that's another kettle of fish! >>or that Europeans care about what whistleblowers like >>Philip Corso have to say? If the latter, then please take a look >>at the Cometa Report where Col Corso is mentioned and the >>implications of his testimony for UFO research are discussed. >>Are these former French generals, scientists indulging in some >>Euro fantasy which somehow coincide with my exopolitical plans? >I doubt that more than one in a thousand Europeans have ever >heard of Mr Corso, and even fewer care about what he has to say. >The Cometa report is far from being an official French >Government document and it is clear that the various ex-generals >and scientists involved in its creation did have some agenda of >their own in compiling it. Probably trying to get more money for >'further research' from the European taxpayer. Actually, Phillip Corso was quite a celebrity in Italy and had his book translated by Paola Harris. A second book by Corso, based on his notes was also translated and published in Italy as "L'Alba Di Una Nuova Era" (The Dawn of a New Age). An Englisish translation unfortunately is not available. As for the COMETA report, it was an audit of French UFOlogy. France follows the tradition of auditing governmental entitities in much the same way that university departments (at least in Australia) will arrange for themselves to be audited every ten years or so by a group of prestigious scholars/scientists. This helps spark innovation and makes possible major departmental reforms. The COMETA report was a very serious affair comprising high level officials who believed Corso's whistleblowers testimony was very significant for understanding the analysis of UFO data and its significance. That is important acknowledgement that whisteblower testiomony holds significance for UFO studies at least in France. >>As for the indefinitely delayed British referendum on the Euro >>constitution, again your ability to find connections when I see >>none is magical. Did you attend divination school? >Sorry, but did you not start this thread by discussing the >'exopolitical' implications of the French and Dutch referenda? >Then I see no reason why we British should be excluded from the >fun. It is clear that you took my exopolitical analysis of the French referendum result to be a 'flight of fancy' and thought you may as well indulge in more fun by reflecting on the British connection. However, there are underlying rival agendas by major nations when it comes to UFO disclosure and the 'exotic' technologies retreived by nations the majority of which end up in US covert laboratories. That would be a major cause for alarm for nations such as France who do not share the present US adminstrations penchant for preemptive military action against 'rogue nations', growing surveillance of electronic signals, and domination of space all of which are significantly advanced by the deployment of exotic technologies. I think it is well worth examining the exopolitical implications of major political events such as the effective collapse of the ratification process for the European constitution. This is part of the paradigm shift that exopolitics offers to the analysis of data
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:42:47 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >aspect is sheer timidity. And what research program do you intend to pursue based on that most nebulous of adjectives, "spiritual"? And _whose_ spirituality? "Spirituality" is not a body of knowledge, but a subjective notion defined in an endless variety of ways, frequently contradictory, from person to person, culture to culture, era to era. The spiritual is in the realm of faith, where it belongs, and therefore does not have to answer to evidence and reason. I would like to believe that all you're saying is that the psychological impact of sightings on witnesses is worth studying. Unfortunately, since you didn't use the word "psychological," which would have raised no eyebrows, but the far more loaded one "spiritual," I am afraid that my hope is destined to be dashed. But if I have misread your meaning and you really did mean something innocuous with which no one would disagree, please correct me. Assuming otherwise, however: Yours is the equivalent of saying that because over the centuries many scientists have drawn spiritual inferences from their study of nature -- and the spiritual inferences they drew were, I might add, far from uniform, as befitting their subjective nature -- it is "sheer timidity" to refuse to accord as much scientific importance to subjective spiritual judgments as to objective facts of nature. In other words, science should be redefined as a branch of religion, and ufology is actually a church. If you want ufology to vanish into an intellectual black hole,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:55:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:44:13 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shell >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? On Wednesday, June 15, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>wrote: >I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >aspect is sheer timidity. Amen, brother, amen! And I would like to second the motion to keep attacks on individuals or their personalities off this List. Such attacks
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:29:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:45:45 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Smith >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:48:35 +0000 >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >As far as I know this is how the UFO Phenomena has >been manifestating itself through decades. No massive >hysteria, no commotion on the people etc. I can't >remember a specific UFO case that produced a paralisis >to a city or a convulsion among >the masses. This hypotetic case would have changed the >world's awareness on UFOs for sure. While not a direct cause of a UFO "sighting", on the night of Feb 12, 1949 in Quito, Ecuador, tens of thousands of people ran into the streets to avoid Martian gas raids instigated by a radio play similar to War of the Worlds (with local references instead of US locations). A riot broke out and the radio station was burned down killing 5 people (not 15 as the New York Times article stated, although more were probably injured as the military was called out to quell the violence). I suspect that the mass public seeing UFOs would not cause panic but if they started blasting things like jets or airplanes or the city, then they would panic. Obviously if they sat above the city, then gridlock would likely ensue. >Is well known and has been said that J. Allen Hynek, >former US government official debunker, the swamp >gases architect and convinced skeptic decided to >change his flag after reviewing so much >evidences from the people but most particulary after he >investigated the Lonnie Zamora case from Socorro, New >Mexico. >This was a single witness case, strong enough to change J. >Allen Hynek's life. No it was a 13 witness case. Now when exactly Hynek changed his mind about UFOs and whether he read Ray Stanford's investigative research prior to this change are subject to question. Also, why is a person called a debunker? If a "bunker" advocates "bunk", then a "debunker" or "disbunker" or "unbunker" advocates its opposite. But it seems that one must define bunk to correctly apply this term. Either a prosaic UFO explanation or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:34:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:47:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul >, >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:44:37 -0300 >Subject: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth >Pilots report UFO smashing up meteor before hitting Earth >http://www.siriusufo.org/engnews/haber.htm Even though the page you site denies the fact that the sighting was caused by a Soyuz rocket body re-entering the Earth's atmosphere, it still is. See: http://satobs.org/seesat/Nov-2002/0126.html Also: http://www.reentrynews.com/27553.html "USSTRATCOM Bulletin: PREPARATION DATE TIME: 010422ZNOV02 1. 27553/2002-050B /SL-04 R/B/ROCKET BODY/ CIS 2. 30 OCT 2002 3. REV 34/ASCENDING /01 NOV 0341Z 4. 38.0 DEG N 26.0 DEG E 5. DECAY WINDOW IS +- 7 MINUTES. 6. INCLINATION 051.6 DEGREES. 7. FINAL REPORT." NORAD wouldn't lie would they? Line 3 shows the time matches the sighting time (correct for local time by adding 2 hours) and the window of time is on line 5. The location is damn near the sighting (line 4). Propagating the satellite orbit (using the last orbital element) shows the Soyuz going from SouthWest to North East unlike the "analysis" from siriusufo which says the opposite. Few satellites go east to west as the sirius page says. As to the altitude, there are many issues here. Whether the pilots have the distance and altitude estimated correctly is an issue which I cannot address. Exactly how the rocket body re-entered is another which adds error to altitude. (if it entered lengthwise versus diameter wise or tumbling). Don't think drag and such are exact things to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:51:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:49:43 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Kaeser >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? ><snip> >>Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at >>all. Neither study does the other any real good. >I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >aspect is sheer timidity. The issue, perhaps, is the question of whether or not you're going to view this as a "scientific" pursuit, or "spiritual" one. Once one enters the spiritual realm, the primary foundation for belief becomes faith, and (IMO) that is a disaster for the scientific pursuit. Then again, I tend to hit the delete button most of the time
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:38:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:51:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:04 +0200 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:25:18 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>But it may be that there is something _else_ going on also, >>>something that catches up images of our dreams and images of the >>>world and plays them back to us through the medium of our own >>>experiences in a kind of playful mimicry - oddly edited, with >>>strange splices and disconcerting flashes of subliminal meaning >>>- in a form which is neither thing nor thought but some mode >>>transcending either . . . >>Very well said, Martin. I have come to very similar conclusions, >>but you have a way with words on the subject that I wish I'd >>thought of. >I am aware of such an hypothesis, having read since a long time >the books of Vallee, Keel and others. It has a lot of followers >in France. Yes, ufology abounds with strange phenomena, I don't >deny that, and there may be "other dimensions", even of the >"supernatural" kind. But there is also an obvious "ET" problem. Gildas, As far as I can tell, the three of us are pretty much in agreement: that there is a core (event) phenomenon, physical and arguably extraterrestrial, as well as something of a mimic (experiential) phenomenon which is even more deeply strange and even more difficult to comprehend. I have been critical of Keel, Vallee, et al., for reasons those who may be curious can search out, but I do not criticize such theorists for noting that some - maybe many - things associated with the UFO phenomenon apparently defy extraterrestrialist/ nuts-and-bolts interpretations (just as hard-evidence cases [CE2s, radar/visuals] apparently defy non-ET-hardware theories). A succinct statement of the conclusions I have reached after decades of trying to make sense of these things appears on pages
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 New MOD UFO Documents Available From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:41:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:52:51 -0400 Subject: New MOD UFO Documents Available List, The Ministry of Defence has recently expanded its online Reading Room, and the June 2005 log contains a consolidated list of all responses to UFO FOIA requests made to date: http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/rrjun05.htm The Reading Room also enables you to access the Publication Scheme, where you can search for information using the keyword UFO. Requests received are also listed, and again, some relate to UFOs: http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/index.htm As is mentioned in some of the responses, there are plans to expand the Publication Scheme, adding further classes of information on UFOs. This is a welcome move and a useful resource for ufologists. Those interested in British ufology will want to check this site on a regular basis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: hat Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:46:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:06 -0400 Subject: Re: hat Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:10:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>I see no 'paradigm shift', just some different contributors here >>for a while. Now back to ufology. >The ETH is just one of many theories. Hi Ray, I hope you meant to add "of widely varying plausibility." I trust you don't mean, in other words, that one "theory" or wild guess is as good as another. If UFOs are genuinely anomalous and, moreover, intelligently controlled, by any standard the ET is the most immediately credible explanation. That doesn't mean we couldn't be surprised, of course, but the point seems obvious enough. One idea is _not_ as good as another.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:59:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Pope >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:41:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>Also, I have heard that regardless of the effort in videoing >>or handcuffing the person in place, the abductors always get >>their abductee ... >This is speculative. A colleague heard from a person who claims >to practice nightly out of body experiences, ostensibly by >having the spirit body leave the physical body. An experiment >was tried where this 'astral traveller' tried sleeping in a >faraday cage. >The report was that the 'astral traveller' could not travel >through the faraday cage. >Since a cage made of 2 x 4s and window screen is relatively >cheap, this might make for an interesting experiment on the part >of a frequent abductee or two. Eleanor, James, I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my understanding is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to a Faraday Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where it's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:00:08 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:24:00 -0400 Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City - Balaskas >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:48:35 +0000 >Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:36:10 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City >>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:49:35 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: The OVNI Problem In Mexico City ><snip> >>Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant to say is that in >>large populated centers throughout Mexico, I find it suspicious >>when very often just a single witness with a video camera got >>to capture what was believed to be a major and historic UFO >>fly by in the sky overhead while the rest of Mexico was on >>siesta. >>Could the reason why most of these separate sightings of the >>alleged UFO fleets over different parts of Mexico, sometimes >>numbering in up to 50 UFOs (OVNIs or Globos) and often covering >>a large part of the sky were recorded and reported by a single >>witness is because the Mexicans interpreted what they saw as >>something less exciting? >If you remember the video I sent you there were several of them >recorded with more than one witness even a whole family in some >cases. I can give you the exact dates for identification. Greetings Santiago! If these UFO videos are of very large objects under intelligent control (not something much smaller such as birds, balloons or airborne seeds) from the wide area of sky they covered and over the densely populated areas they were see over, one would expect thousands of independent witnesses - such as in Mexico City's Chapultepec Park sightings of UFOs or balloons in 1993 and 1997. This was not the case with the UFO fleet footage included in the video cassette you sent to me. If someone points their zoom video camera at a bright red coloured star in the sky, and identifies it as a UFO to family members, friends, neighbours or anyone else that happens to be present, these people cannot be counted as independent witnesses and their testimony would have little confirmative value since it would be biased. For example, if I were to point my telescope at the planet Mars and tell those near me that this red orb-like object they see is actually a UFO or OVNI, they are likely to accept my explanation and would get excited over this red light in the sky - a light they would have otherwise ignored as being something less exciting such as a star. >The Mexican people has already an awareness on this phenomena >and reacts with excitement. But not all of them have a camera at >that precise moment of the sighting. But they report the >sightings all the time and we have UFO videos of a same sighting >provided by diferent witnesses from diferent locations. Our >media has also their percentage of skepticism just like in other >countries and we always request their interest on these >important events witnessed by the people. Unless we have many independent eye witnesses that can provide us with some basic information such as the time of the sightings; the direction(s) in the sky of the UFOs, their height(s) above the horizon; their rate of movement through the sky; etc., we cannot perform a proper scientific analysis that will allow us to say anything with certainty about the size and distance of these UFOs. Some of my friends who are interested in meteors have published papers about the orbits or the origins in space of some particularly bright meteors (and sometimes where any meteorites that have made it all the way to the ground could be found), only on the testimonies of many independent eye witnesses they worked with. Video footage of UFOs from several cameras widely separated from each other would be nice but is not necessary. >As far as I know this is how the UFO Phenomena has been >manifestating itself through decades. No massive hysteria, no >commotion on the people etc. I can't remember a specific UFO >case that produced a paralisis to a city or a convulsion among >the masses. This hypotetic case would have changed the world's >awareness on UFOs for sure. Not necessarily. Back in November 9, 1990 a large circular UFO estimated to be as wide as Toronto's CN Tower is tall (over 550 meters) "parked" itself over the Bonaventure Hotel in downtown Montreal. It was seen by many and produced e.m. effects along its path as it slowly drifted away. Newspapers wrote about it and the RCMP and Canadian military took this incident serious enough to launch investigations (see Timothy Good's book 'Alien Update') but did it change the world's awareness of UFOs, no, especially since many of my Montreal friends where I one lived are not even aware of this special visitation by something truly unknown. >>I can now better appreciate why ufologists such as Dr. J. >>Allen Hynek, author of 'The UFO Experience - A Scientific >>Inquiry' gave low credibility or reliability values for single >>witness UFO cases. >Excuse me but I can't give you credit on this one. Is well known >and has been said that J. Allen Hynek, former US government >official debunker, the swamp gases architect and convinced >skeptic decided to change his flag after reviewing so much >evidences from the people but most particulary after he >investigated the Lonnie Zamora case from Socorro, New Mexico. >This was a single witness case, strong enough to change J. Allen >Hynek's life. Yes, Dr. Hynek did seem to have made a few exceptions to the rules since he rated UFOs sightings not only by Probability (such as the number and reliability of the witnesses) but also by Strangeness. Although the Mexican UFO fleet videos seem to depict strange things in the sky, the Strangeness of a large structured craft with two non-human entities that was witnessed by a police officer (and others whose names are not on record) where physical residue was recovered far surpasses that of any Mexican UFO fleet video. Read Ray Stanford's book 'Socorro 'Saucer' In A Pentagon Pantry' for a fuller account of this incredible UFO incident. Regarding UFOs, Dr. Hynek's life was changed for good when he and his family witnessed a firey UFO streak through the sky that was being chased by a jet fighter while they were on vacation in Canada. When he tried to find out more about this incident from the U.S. Air Force that employed him as the consultant on UFOs, they could not tell him anything! More inconclusive videos of UFOs from single or dubious sources will not bring us any closer to a resolution to the UFO mystery. As I mentioned in an earlier e-mail, the efforts of our friend John Velez to get the UN to look into this global phenomenon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:02:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:25:30 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:55:39 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >>unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >>in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >>aspect is sheer timidity. >Amen, brother, amen! And "amen" is exactly the right word, I'm afraid. And now let us pray....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:27:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>Notice the negative color image of the boy on the bicycle. That >>image was not placed on that page until today June 13, 2005 (7pm >>CDT). It merely has the same file name. The cached page would >>make it seem like the image was there earlier but I assure you >>it wasn't. >>Perhaps Santiago had seen similar images before but I'm not >>convinced he saw them on the "Signs" page except as cached >>file names. >Terry, >Yes, it seems this is a file name issue, not an image issue. I >was able to talk with Jeff and Brian and the scenario you >describe in your post is an accurate representation of what >occurred. In fact, what I was sent shows this was explained to >the individual responsible for promoting the "recycled image" >spin on this. An explanation that was provided prior to the >posting on UpDates regarding this. I am curious as to why the >post would be written without any mention of the file name >explanation. It makes one suspicious of the real intent here. Just recently there has been reference to a french page that supposedly shows the May 28 google cache http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ but I looked at that page and found that the images displayed are not from either a google cache or from ufotheatre.com They are stored and referenced from the very same geocities site. Therefore that page does not represent Google's cache but it has been manipulated to look like a legitimate cache. The only way that page would be valid is if it was a true snapshot taken before June 5th. Otherwise it is worthless.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Filer's Files #25 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:46:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:42:54 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2005 Filer's Files #25 - 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International June 14, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Mar's Anomalies The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. Assuming UFOs are real, then much of what we know in science is wrong, that it is quite likely the visitors had a profound effect on the development of Earth. This week's files cover Mars anomalies, Earth's bigger cousin detected. UFOs were seen over Alaska, Arizona, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Washington and Washington D.C.. Sightings were also reported in Canada, Croatia, Mongolia, Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. CIA's Victor Marchetti, the former Special Assistant to the Executive Director of the CIA, and first CIA employee to go public says, in an article written by him for Second Look entitled "How the CIA views the UFO Phenomenon", Vol. 1, No 7, May 1979, wrote- "We have, indeed, been contacted perhaps even visited by extraterrestrial beings, and the US government, in collusion with the other national powers of the Earth, is determined to keep this information from the general public."- The purpose of the international conspiracy is to maintain a workable stability among the nations of the world and for them, in turn, to retain institutional control over their restive populations Earth's 'Bigger Cousin' Detected Michael Schirber reports: "ET Astronomers announced on June 13, 2005, the discovery of the smallest planet so far found outside of our solar system." About seven-and-a-half times as massive as Earth, and about twice as wide, this new extrasolar planet may be the first rocky world ever found orbiting a star similar to our own. "This is the smallest extrasolar planet yet detected and the first of a new class of rocky terrestrial planets," said team member Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution of Washington. "It's like Earth's bigger cousin." Currently around 150 extrasolar planets are known, and the number continues to grow. The new planet orbits Gliese 876, an M dwarf star 15 light years away in the constellation Aquarius. The "super-Earth" 5.9 Earth masses and is not alone: there are two other planets -- both Jupiter-sized -- in the same system. The planet makes a full orbit in a speedy 1.94 days, implying a distance to the central star of 2 million miles -- or about 2 percent of the distance between the Earth and the Sun and the planet's temperature is a toasty 400 to 750 degrees Fahrenheit (200 to 400 degrees Celsius). A paper detailing these results has been submitted to The Astrophysical Journal. Snip Mars anomalies investigation Richard Buchli D.V.M. Ph.D. writes, "This image is posted on the European Space Agency site. I suggest you enlarge and lighten this ESA photo of object on Mars. It sure looks like some kind of "modernistic" structure? What do you think?? Look again at the shiny material, and you will see that it is really a small lake held back by a dam, the dam is very visible below the shiny material, and to the right end of the dam, you will find structures which probably control the outflow from the lake. I still see the building above and to the middle of the picture, but the dam is even more visible than the building. " Thanks to Richard Buchli D.V.M. Ph.D Mars smoking gun Harold Carver writes, "I came across this image of a skull in a Mars Rover Spirit image 2P171912249EFFAAL4P2425R1M1. If I am right it is the smoking gun proof needed to get NASA to confess the truth. Thanks to Harold Carver Alaska large UFO over MT. ILIAMNA ANCHOR POINT -- Driving westerly, uphill out of Homer Alaska, a passenger spotted an object that was somewhat cloud-like at 6:30 PM, on May 24, 2005, but different in that it had a metallic sheen to it and it was in motion contrary to the other clouds that were nearly motion-less on the northern portion of the partly cloudy sky. The metal object was 15-to 20,000 feet and at least 3 miles distant to the clouds present when first sighted. The 'craft' traveled at a high rate of speed, climbing higher into the relatively free clouds western sky that was over the "Cook Inlet". It was first noted to be about an inch long over head when first sighted; half an inch over the middle of the Inlet and about a quarter of an inch in length (over MT. Iliamna), when one measures with an arm extended out using finger and thumb to bracket the object. This experience lasted three to five minutes. We have noticed many jet-liners, military transports flying in our skies day and night and basically comprehend their size relative to their flying altitudes fairly well since we are both military veterans, U.S. N., and U.S.A. F. This was MUCH TOO LARGE for anything published in Jane's--LOL!!!!! It was like the saucer section separated from Star Trek's Enterprise, leaving a cloudy vapor, (tear-dropped vapor shape that traveled with the craft. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com[ ] Arizona numerous reports of strange lights PHOENIX -- The witness was driving on I-103 about 90 miles southwest of Phoenix, when he noticed a large orange object at 10:35 PM, on May 19. 2005. It was very low in the sky, just above the hills. It must have been over ten miles away because it's position never seemed to vary with respect to my car. He states, "While I was watching, another object appeared to rise out of the top of the first one and both were very large, about the size of a thumbnail on an outstretched arm." After a few minutes, a third object appeared, blinked-out, and then re- appeared. All three objects then hovered for about 3 minutes. I kept looking for a road that might head out to them so I could get a closer look and a picture. I finally pulled off on Hofsetter Rd. and stopped about 100 yards away from the freeway. I opened my trunk to get my digital camera and when I got ready to take a video- they were gone. It was very frustrating. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com PHOENIX -- My wife and I were at South Mountain watching the moonrise at 8:25 PM, on May 23, 2005. With all of the pollution in the air the moon looked like an orange fireball in the sky. As the moon moved higher we saw three dark, tear-drop ships fly in front of the moon, moving from the west side to the eastside of Phoenix. They did not look to be in our atmosphere, but between Earth and the Moon. The Tear Drops filled a huge area of the face on the moon. From the West to the East of the moon, the Tear Drops took about five seconds for them to pass from one side to the other. A Spanish couple next to us had also witnessed this event. They pointed to the moon, rattled something in Spanish. I went to talk to them but our English and Spanish were not working with each other to talk about what we had just witnessed. It was amazing. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Editor's Note: A series of videos and photographs are now under analysis showing possible unidentified flying objects. A series of sonic booms are also being reported. One spectacular but controversial video is available from Brian Bessent www.ufotheatre.com and http://www.rense.com/general65/aamz.htm Florida sightings ORMOND BEACH -- A black three dimensional diamond shaped object was spotted which remained perfectly still for an hour starting at 6:30 AM, on May 23, 2005. and exhibited a faint orange glow around it. Looking east over the Atlantic Ocean, the witness observed a three-dimensional diamond shaped object that looked similar to a lantern. The object was black in color and remained perfectly still in the sky. When the sun came up completely, the object then appeared to have a faint orange circular glow around it that was not visible prior, or in the picture I took. I was unable to observe it for longer than an hour. However it was still there when I left my house. When I returned home in the afternoon, it was not longer there. ST. PETERSBURG -- At 9:26 PM, I was heading to my car to take my grandfather home on May 27, 2005, and looked up to look at the Big Dipper and noticed a gray circle floating in the sky. It was the size of a pencil's eraser and gliding across the sky in a perfect straight line, at a constant speed altitude. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOcenter.com CAPE CANAVERAL -- Mike Howard writes, "I have attached three images that were taken on June 11. Several years ago I was a MUFON member here and my profession is a professional wedding photographer. I was taking hurricane damage pictures of a damaged roof when in the second frame, the object is clearly seen. I have made no attempt to alter the images. These were taken on a Canon D30 at 2160 x 1440 resolution at 1/125 of a second, roughly thirty seconds apart and the times were:2:57:39, 2:58:06, 2:58:14. The first and last shot only show the roof. The middle photo shows a dark object. I hope that someone might be able to let me know what it is. Thanks to Mike Howard. Editor's Note: The second photo shown above shows a dark disc shaped object moving at high speed behind the roof. It does not appear to be an insect, bird, or aircraft since these objects would most likely have been in focus at 1/125 of a second at high resolution. Your photo is similar to those taken by Alan Caviness and George Ritter in recent years of high speed UFOs. New York Egg MANHATTAN -- A couple was saying good-bye to their last guest after they just finished their friend's 40th birthday party at ten past midnight on May 25, 2005. While looking over the cornfield a sphere like shape appeared and then immerged into the air. The witness states, "My wife stayed in doors and I walked out towards my friends' car to wave them off and chatted for quite a long time. Suddenly I heard this buzzing noise in the air. I looked up and saw this cylinder like space thing. I didn't know what it was but it started to worry me and my friends. It got to about 300 feet away from us and the multi colored flashing lights started to emerge. The object was about 100 meters in diameter. It was huge and as it came closer and closer to us we quickly ran indoors as it emerged into the air again. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Hawaii changing lights HOLUALOA -- On the big island, in the early morning hours at 2:20 AM, of May 21, 2005, the observers were sitting in a hot tub under a tropical rain when they saw bright lights that moved and changed shapes and colors. The witness states, "My girlfriend and I were sitting in the hot-tub kissing, and when the rain subsided just enough, I noticed an unusual light above the treetops from a forest area that borders my property. About fifty feet above ground and 100 yards away I pointed the light out to her. She did not realize the light was strange, and thought it was a reflection. We got out of the tub and walked closer, and proceeded to see this light change colors, from red to blue, to bright white. We were blown away by what we saw, and watched it for about 3-5 minutes. Then, we went away from it for a little while, when we did, she saw it move back into her sight at an alarming speed (she freaked out), and she hollered at me to come see. I could not see it where she said it took off to, but she said it didn't move that far, and only moved to continue to check us out. So we went back to the side of the house that allowed the best view, and I watched for about 30 seconds the area behind the trees that she said it moved to, and sure enough, it re- appeared as a dim light. Then, in the original spot that we first saw it, two other lights appeared. It was very hard to judge shape or size, however it did appear that they were changing shape, and they definitely were changing color. As the other two appeared, all three got really bright simultaneously. The main moving light had "dancing" white smaller lights around it. They stayed for thirty to 45 minutes. It truly seemed to both of us that they were watching us, and somewhat using the treetops as cover, however when we went to the side of the house that they were near, they would like re- appear and even get brighter, changing from red to blue to white to bright white. I would have heard aircraft, as it is really quiet where I live, and the fact that she saw it move super fast and then we saw three proves to me we saw something "out of this world". The objects appeared to change shapes, and one of them looked like a flare for a minute or so, but would then change to blue and white. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Illinois teardrop for four minutes FRANKLIN PARK -- The witness was in his yard having a smoke and saw a bright flash of light like a camera flash, but pinpoint in size to the west at 11 PM, on May 22, 2005. He saw a yellowish- orange glowing shape rotating counter clockwise on what appeared to be an asymmetrical axis. A dim light appeared at that point, far off and slowly traveled north for about one minute and then made a wide, circular curve - clockwise until it headed ESE. My view was obstructed for about 15 seconds by trees, but it was heading towards me. As it approached, I began to see color and shape. It passed directly overhead and continued east until I could no longer see it. It was glowing an orange-yellow color, and the lights on the bottom of it appeared to be segmented into three rectangular shapes, nearly the same in shape and size. There was a halo of light surrounding it that was more yellow in color and appeared misty. That is how the teardrop type shape was seen. The object was rotating counter-clockwise on what appeared to be an asymmetrical axis at one revolution every 3 or 4 seconds. The revolutions and lateral speed were constant. Though the defining lines of the object could not be seen clearly, I got a distinct view of the underside as I described it. I called my step-daughter out to see it but she only saw it briefly rotate in the distance. This is the second UFO sighting I have had in two years, the first of which was even more breathtaking. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Minnesota triangle FERGUS FALLS -- Three witnesses at different locations made observations of a flying triangle. Witnesses in the town were observing Northern Lights in the distance, when they observed a bright orange triangle that appeared from the east at treetop level and moved slowly north disappearing at 3 AM, on May 20, 2005. The object made no sound. The night was clear and still. The object would fit inside the full moon, if the full moon was about half its normal size. Another witness in Fergus Falls indicated that the object was in the northern sky, from his vantage point. The second witness, who lived three blocks to the north of this witness, indicates that she had witnessed the object to the south, from her vantage point at her home. If that second report is true, the object may have been located between the two witnesses. Man witnesses peculiar, orange-colored, triangular object against the night sky. Telephoned NUFORC Report: A man called to report having witnessed a very peculiar, triangular-shaped craft, as it flew along a nearby river. The witness reported that he awoke from sleep, and looked out about 2:50 AM, and saw very peculiar, equilateral triangular-shaped object, that was covered with many tiny orange lights giving it an overall, distinctly orange color. It was slightly smaller than the apparent size of a full Moon in the night sky. The object slowly moved out of his sight to the east, after he had witnessed it for an estimated two minutes. NUFORC Note: We express our gratitude to the Fergus Falls Daily Journal, and its award-winning journalist, Mr. Brandon Stahl, for publishing their article about this reported event. That newspaper will publish an article about the incident in their May 21, 2005, issue, which can be read here: http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com// New Jersey egg LEDGEWOOD -- The witness came out of the building where he works and caught a glimpse of what he thought at first was a plane at 11:25 AM on May 19, 2005. Looking closer because of its strange shape he saw the object was very shiny and chrome like. It was 5 to 10,000 feet high and its shape was more egg-like than anything else but the image seemed blurry. It was flatter on the bottom and curved on the top. The middle was unclear as if there were something around it like vapor maybe. The shiny chrome egg shaped object was moving slowly and then disappeared after going behind some trees There may have been heat coming off the object as the sun actually reflected off one part of it. It was seen while I was looking up high in the sky facing east. The object was moving to the south, but did not move very fast. It was a steady movement though. There were four tall trees that were about to block my view after watching for around 6 or 7 seconds when a jet came over the building behind me. Slightly lower than what I had seen, and headed east. I knew for sure that I had not been watching a plane or jet. I am a Truck Driver for CCX co. and am 51 Years old. I have never seen anything like this. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com New Mexico possible new Roswell info Dave writes: "I wanted to relate a story to you about my Father, Joe, who was on the Civil Engineering faculty at the University of Texas. In mid July of 1947, my parents were driving late at night, west bound from Clovis New Mexico trying to make Santa Fe. My Mother said that west of Clovis about 15 miles, it was a clear starry night, the road was open with no traffic. She said the road was "mounded" up, built up higher than the surrounding terrain. There was (and is) a railroad track that parallels the road, but that it is located down below and that it's telegraph poles reached only slightly higher than the road surface. This stretch of road is about 40 miles northeast of Roswell, N.M. Today,as then, the road is still built up and, while there are more utility poles, there are still long sections where the road is about the height of the tops of the poles. If you are west bound, to the left is a long, descending plain that runs almost to Roswell, devoid of trees, power line, and any other obstructions. As many places in the west...you can literally see 25 to 30 miles. Artist's drawing of incident. Dad slammed on the brakes, a very hard set down with smoke and boiling, screaming tires. As they sat there, in front of them about 150 feet, a huge craft had come up from the plains on the left, out of the darkness, and was skimming south to north across the road surface, not touching the road but about two feet above it. The wind draft of this object was pulling some dust and straw along with it. Mom said they could not see the top of the object until it passed, but that it filled the windshield view and rose out of sight vertically. She said that it looked like an express passenger train, racing across a grade level crossing right in front of them...however, it was no train, it was huge with 'lighted' windows, and some darkened windows, racing by...give a passenger train effect of train windows going by, however think of trains stacked on top of each other so high that it fills the windshield until out of sight. It was moving somewhat faster than any express train she had ever seen, yet was so big it took some time to pass. Maybe 130 MPH. =46rom the time Dad got the car stopped...she thought about it and said, a slow" One potato, two potato, three potato, four potato, five potato, six potato, seven potato, eight potato, nine potato, ten potato, eleven potato". Obviously, Dad had seen it coming at the last minute up out of the dark plains on the left. They both said that it had come "from below" on the left to just skim the road top. Dad said it would have hit them had he not seen "movement in the dark off to the left." Both parents stressed that this "was not a train, no head lights...after it passed they looked for track in the road, crossing signs, or any other evidence of rail. There was nothing. They did say the asphalt was "hot", almost steaming, but there were no marks or anything. And definitely no railroad tracks. They also said it certainly wasn't a train as it was huge! The size and height of the University of Texas Memorial Stadium. Both my parents were college educated and intelligent. They both were religious and very skeptical of new things, of technology. So I am convinced that "something" was seen there..just slightly after Roswell by only days when my parents got "buzzed". Thanks to -Dave North Carolina stealth UFO operations continue DAVIDSON COUNTY -- In an ongoing effort to monitor invisible UFOs conducting annual operations in Central North Carolina, 380 photographs were taken in randomly chosen parts of the sky on the evening of June 4, 2005. Our field team has learned that if we shoot several pictures in one particular direction before moving the camera to another part of the sky, the chances of capturing a sequence of UFO photographs are reasonably good. Shown here are seven zoomed-in images of an apparently cigar-shaped UFO with a suspected "companion" making its way toward the team on the ground. These companions seem to be similar to natural paranormal orbs often photographed and video 'd in the area. However, this particular type of object is usually photographed when a UFO is photographed and very seldom at other times. The center of the companion object usually displays a large 'hole" or hollow area in the center. All objects photographed in the area are generally invisible to the human eye. Our team bounces a camera flash off the surface of the objects causing them to give us an instant reaction in the form of a photographic image that our digital cameras can pick up due to their sensitivity to infrared and ultraviolet light. The 380 photos were taken over an hour-and-a-half. The UFO flyover occurred at photo #70 through #78 with one photo missing the UFO. The full pictures all show the same treetops in the foreground allowing us to track the object's apparent path across the sky. This UFO sequence was discovered by a 17-year old female team member during her first time participating in photo analysis activities. It would probably be a good idea for other readers of Filer's Files who know of UFO-active areas to go out at night with digital cameras, shoot a couple hundred pictures and study each one carefully with a typical photo-editing program averaging 45 seconds per picture. Most photos have to be brightened in order to reveal objects. We would like to see any results. Thanks to Alan Caviness Carolina Group Research Project Ohio UFO video FOSTORIA -- George Ritter's video taken April 30, 2005, is very similar to Florida's photographs of high speed object. The craft appear to moving faster than a speeding bullet. Texas fire and triangles in the sky AUSTIN -- The witness while on the phone outside looked north to see a triangular shaped object with red, blue, and green lights on May 24 and 25, 2005, at 10:30 PM. The witness grabbed his friend and they saw a bright fiery light adjacent to the object that was shaped like a torn seem, and the white and orange light was almost as bright as the sun. A jet from the local air force base approached directly for the triangular object and adjacent light and the seem of light moved inward and closed as if it pixilated from mass to miniscule. The triangular shape flew higher and north and we saw three red circles as it grew rapidly smaller. Another event occurred in the same location happened tonight, coincidentally while I was on the phone outside. This time the triangular shape was difficult to see. The adjacent light was much brighter and appeared to move south towards me. As this happened the Triangular shape became more and more difficult to see. There was no triangular object after the light closed. Air Force jets responded this time as well from the same direction. They didn't get nearly close before the fiery light ceased. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com WAXAHACHIE -- Cylindrical-shaped, wingless object caught the attention of the observer during sunset on May 22, 2005, in a suburb of Dallas. The object appeared when it caught the light of the sun, then disappeared, reappeared, several times. It appeared to be very high, and hovered above the area soundlessly and remained motionless for several minutes. A companion, in the south at about the same altitude, appeared to be identical in shape and was also motionless until it disappeared. The witness states, "As the daughter of a pilot and aeronautical engineer, I am familiar with many types of aircraft -- none of which are shaped like these two objects or hover soundlessly for minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Washington flying triangle investigation TACOMA -- Tom Martel writes, "I can answer your questions as follows: I could not see any regular atmospheric traversing craft structures, such as vertical stabilizers, horizontal stabilizers, no landing gear or doors, no flaps, no insignias, such as, USAF, emergency notification tags (Pull, Vent, Emergency, etc.) Now remember, that this did not mean there weren't any. The light that I was seeing this craft was only from low light reflected off the bottom of the craft from city lighting exclusively. The large red light on the craft did not help any whatsoever. I am an aircraft enthusiast and have seen no similar surface details on this craft that denote conventional atmospheric traversing properties. Note similarity to Sydney, Texas sighting. I listened to your Program on June 7, 2005, on the Jeff Rense Show and wanted to tell you both "thanks!". I really appreciated the treatment you both gave for my triangle report. I have been going outside for years and have seen nothing until that night. Immediately following the sighting, I took copious notes so that I could remember every nuance of the event so that I could report it to the best of my ability. Thanks again to both of you, and keep up the great work! Thanks to Tom Martel Washington DC blue light over homes DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA --The observers saw a light blue light continuously circling a few houses at 10 PM on May 22, 2005. The witnesses report, "At first we thought that it was a raid light or a government light, but it seems to be staying over just a few houses. NUFORC Note: Witness elects to remain totally anonymous. We assume the source implies an evening sighting, not a morning sighting, so we have amended the time above to 22:00 hrs. Canada object shoots at high speed KINGSTON, ONTARIO -- On June 10, 2005, at around 9:30 PM, just as it started to quickly get dark, a couple in their backyard witnessed an object shoot across the sky. The object was in sight for about ten seconds and was moving at phenomenal speeds. The witness ran to get his camera. He states, "My heart was beating so fast, it still feels like a dream. The object shot from the west and went into a southwest direction. My girlfriend and I both remember feeling a static like feeling when it shot by as our hair was all statically charged and started to stick up on end." I got my camera out and waited for a good 15 minutes and the UFO returned to fly by over head at a good 500 feet above us and it was darting all over the place. It was in sight for a good minute then it raced towards the city of Kingston. My girlfriend had to sleep at her friend's house because she was too scared to sleep alone. Thanks to Kevin Arman. Croatia light seen for five minutes ZAGREB -- On May 24, 2005, at 10 PM, the witness reports seeing a light flying very high, and too fast for a plane at that altitude. The object moved a little to the right, and then a little left, with big and fast turns that no aircraft can accomplish. It was flying from south to north. Mongolia -- UFOs fly near airliner Kathy from Australia was flying over Mongolia last month (May)and was taking photos out the aircraft window at 37,000 feet. The four previous shots taken had nothing unusual on them. This photo shows some unidentified objects that may be something or nothing at all. Thanks to Kathy in Adelaide, Australia. Email from megmap21.nul Netherlands black shaped UFO and photo PUTTEN -- The witness took a picture of an unidentified object at 2 PM, on May 18, 2005, while taking a picture of the sun. When my parents and friends looked at it we all agreed I took the picture of a strange object right above the sun. They said, what I sad: "It could be an UFO so greetings, from the Netherlands NUFORC Note: Witness does not indicate date of photograph. We have assigned an arbitrary date above, until we learn the actual date of the photo. We have requested a copy of the photo for inspection. PD)) SON EN BREUGEL -- A black shaped object with a red light, like fire, advancing it flew over from the south to the north at 10 PM, on May 21, 2005. The object was soundless and was not on the flight path of aircraft heading towards the airport. We had never seen this before. It disappeared behind the houses and we didn't see anything else though we kept looking. There was no fire trail of any kind. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com UK/England lights on circular craft LEICESTER -- The witness was walking up the road when he saw two bright lights and a small red light on a circular craft on May 18, 2005 at 8:50 PM. At first he thought it was a plane or a helicopter but there were no flashing lights on it. He states, "As I walked on I stopped to look at it as it flew over the top of me; then, I saw three lights in a triangle formation and a small pulsing red light in the middle. I rang my dad in to see if it was a military aircraft, but he didn't know what it could have been. I could also see a faint outline of a circle but I'm not sure. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD Don't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Pay pal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's File is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel? - From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:41:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:55:55 -0400 Subject: Re: The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel? - >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:30:54 +1000 >Subject: The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel? >Before The War Of The Worlds There Was >The Germ Growers - 1892 >A few years ago I sat down in the NSW State Library in Sydney >Australia and read an obscure novel - The Germ Growers - An >Australian Story of Adventure and Mystery <snip> Yet another book to add to my shopping list... Whilst this is straying a bit from my own primary areas of interest, Bill, I think the answer to the question in the title of your email (i.e. The World's First Alien Invasion SF Novel?) is probably No. If you are interested in the portrayal of extraterrestrial life throughout history, you may well be interested in Karl S Guthke The Last Frontier : Imagining Other Worlds From the Copernican Revolution to Modern Science Fiction (1990). In that book Guthke discusses (at page 122 (in Chapter 3.1) of the Cornell University softcover edition) a novel dating from 1623-1626 by Charles Sorel (Vraie histoire comique de Francion) in which, according to Guthke: Sorel introduces, as a ridiculous notion, an idea that was to become a serious theme in science fiction, treated by H G Wells, Kurd Lasswitz, and many others: the invasion of the Earth from outer space. (Incidentally, a catastrophic outcome is averted here, just as in The War of the Worlds, by the intervention of a feverish infection). (I note in passing that if you are examining further the science fiction from the period of The Germ Growers, you might want to get hold of a bibliography mentioend by Guthke at page 367 (in Chapter 5.3) of the Cornell University softcover edition of his book - George Locke's, Voyages in Space: A Bibliography of Interplanetary Fiction 1801-1914, (1975)). >5 years before H.G. Well's classic of the genre - The War >of the Worlds (1897) - entered our imagination and took a >permanent hold, particularly with Orson Welles famous 1938 >Martian Invasion radio broadcast, George Pals' 1953 filmic >Americanisation, Jeff Wayne's 1978 musical (with Richard >Burton), and now in June 2005 with a majoring rebirthing via >Steven Spielberg's blockbuster treatment. Possibly deliberately, you've omitted the rather amusingly bad TV series of the same name, which began transmission in October 1988. Episode guide and other details are available online at: http://www.tvtome.com/WaroftheWorlds/ Some of us enjoy that sort of thing... Although far less frequently discussed than the other versions of H G Wells' classic, I've noted a few references to discussion of that series in UFO/SETI books: Rux, Bruce in his, Hollywood Vs. the Aliens, (1997) at pages 380 (in Chapter 7), 534 (in Chapter 11) of the Frog softcover edition. Spencer, John and Spencer, Anne in their, True Life Encounters - Alien Contact, (1997) at pages 234-235 (in Chapter 14) of the Millenium paperback edition. White, Frank in his, The SETI Factor, (1990) at page 142 (in Chapter 9) of the Walker hardback edition. Although worth noting in the same context is the 1975 movie, The Night That Panicked Americans, directed by Joseph Sargent which dramatized the effects of the broadcast of the War of the Worlds, radio program. Credits and other details included in the Internet Movie Database (imdb) entry online at: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073454/ For discussion of The Night That Panicked Americans, see the following: Rux, Bruce in his Hollywood Vs. the Aliens (1997) at page 424 (in Chapter 8) of the Frog softcover edition. Watson, Nigel and Slade, Darren in their, Supernatural Spielberg, (1992) at page 20 (in Chapter 3) of the Valis softcover edition. Watson, Nigel in UFO: 1947-1987 (1987) (edited by Hilary Evans with John Spencer) at page 334 (in Chapter 5.4, entitled The Day Flying Saucers Invaded the Cinema) of the Fortean Tomes softcover edition. Watson, Nigel in, UFOs and Ufology - The First 50 Years, (1997) by Paul Devereux and Peter Brookesmith at page 39 (in Chapter 3) of the Blandford softcover edition.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:45:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:57:23 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boeche >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:46:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Ray Boeche <rayboeche.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:10:53 -0500 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>I see no 'paradigm shift', just some different contributors here >>>for a while. Now back to ufology. >>The ETH is just one of many theories. >I hope you meant to add "of widely varying plausibility." I >trust you don't mean, in other words, that one "theory" or wild >guess is as good as another. If UFOs are genuinely anomalous >and, moreover, intelligently controlled, by any standard the ET >is the most immediately credible explanation. That doesn't mean >we couldn't be surprised, of course, but the point seems obvious >enough. One idea is _not_ as good as another. Jerry: Thanks for finishing my thought for me. I made the error of assumption that "of widely varying plausibility" was inferred. I appreciate the clarification.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 15 Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:51:44 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:34:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul >, >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:44:37 -0300 >>Subject: Pilots Report UFO Smashing Meteor It Hits Earth >>Pilots report UFO smashing up meteor before hitting Earth >>http://www.siriusufo.org/engnews/haber.htm >Even though the page you site denies the fact that the >sighting was caused by a Soyuz rocket body re-entering >the Earth's atmosphere, it still is. <snip> >Now if you want to say a UFO blew up the Soyuz upon re-entry, >how could I argue? James, Actually it was a spiritual entity that blew up the re-entry object, and since they are not subject to logical proofs we have to accept it on faith. Like Bob Shell's claim that he and only he knew Ivan Sanderson, and he (Ivan) was a brilliant scientist. And anyone who disagrees with that is 'attacking' them rather than correcting the record based on facts, knowledge, and personal experience. 'Spirituality' trumps that sort of approach
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: New MOD UFO Documents Available - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:12:45 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:17:07 -0400 Subject: Re: New MOD UFO Documents Available - Koi >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:41:07 +0100 >Subject: New MOD UFO Documents Available >List, >The Ministry of Defence has recently expanded its online >Reading Room, and the June 2005 log contains a consolidated >list of all responses to UFO FOIA >requests made to date: >http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/rrjun05.htm >The Reading Room also enables you to access the Publication >Scheme, where you can search for information using the >keyword UFO. Requests received are also listed, and again, >some relate to UFOs: >http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/index.htm >As is mentioned in some of the responses, there are plans to >expand the Publication Scheme, adding further classes of >information on UFOs. >This is a welcome move and a useful resource for ufologists. >Those interested in British ufology will want to check this >site on a regular basis. Hi Nick, List, In addition to referring to adding further classes of information on UFOs, the relevant response to me from the MOD (which attached the documents now at the link provided by Nick) also refers to a "database" being compiled by the British Ministry Of Defence "of the UFO sightings which have been reported to the MOD" which will be "added to the Publication Scheme in the near future". (The MOD has been saying in correspondence that the relevant database will be made public at the end of June (i.e. now only a few weeks away).) Given that the MOD has already provided summaries of sightings reported during the past 2 or so years (and also released totals of the number of reports for previous years), this database may go considerably further. A slight correction to Nick's comment that the documents at the link he provided are a "consolidated list of all responses to UFO FOIA requests made to date" - the material at the link is limited to requests received by the MOD for information relating to UFOs in the period from 1 January 2005 to 31 January 2005 (i.e. not up to June). I know that the description at the link provided by Nick implies that the documents cover the period up to June 2005, but the relevant covering email from the MOD made the true limitation clear (also, the relevant request I made was limited to that time period). By the way, reading the requests received by the MOD during January 2005 (the first month after the British Freedom Of Information Act came into force) was a rather depressing experience that I've been dwelling upon for the last few days. Virtually all of the UFO related requests were extremely vague, ill-informed and/or confrontational. They are not exactly productive and are also unlikely to change the impression of ufologists that the MOD seems to have had since the 1960s (with the possible exception of the period that Nick Pope was in place). Given the nature of the requests, it is rather difficult to blame the MOD for the rather incomplete answers it has given. (The MOD's FOI officer was unable to give any assistance in relation to several queries raised by members of the press/public that quite a few members of this List and/or Joe McGonagle's ufologyinuk could have dealt with). Basically, reading those requests have reinforced my concerns (which I raised in my very first emails on this List a few years ago) about the limited pooling of information within British ufology and the need for some freely available references documents to reduce the amount of reinvention of the wheel. In preparing the draft Chronology I've been working on for the last 2 years, I've been trying to do my bit to improve the situation. Work permitting (which it does all too rarely...), I'll try to circulate an extract from the draft Chronology in the next few weeks, this time focusing on British incidents. (The next extract should be considerably longer than the extract I circulated a few weeks ago in response to points raised by Gildas Bourdais. If anyone has comments on the format I'm adopting, now is the time to let me know.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:55:48 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:22:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:04 +0200 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:25:18 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:27:59 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:49:59 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>Now in the meantime consider what I actually said: It may be >>>that an objective UFO phenomenon (most probably more) exists at >>>the core of our subjective flying saucer mythology (and if you >>>wish to deny that there is any such mythology then read no more >>>because there is no hope for you). One of the objective UFO >>>phenomena may be ET intrusions; I don't deny there are some >>>cases which most naturally invite that interpretation, though it >>>wants proof (there are other likely phenomena too, some natural, >>>some due to covert human technology, which also want proof). >>>But it may be that there is something _else_ going on also, >>>something that catches up images of our dreams and images of the >>>world and plays them back to us through the medium of our own >>>experiences in a kind of playful mimicry - oddly edited, with >>>strange splices and disconcerting flashes of subliminal meaning >>>- in a form which is neither thing nor thought but some mode >>>transcending either . . . >>Very well said, Martin. I have come to very similar conclusions, >>but you have a way with words on the subject that I wish I'd >>thought of. >I am aware of such an hypothesis, having read since a long time >the books of Vallee, Keel and others. It has a lot of followers >in France. Yes, ufology abounds with strange phenomena, I don't >deny that, and there may be "other dimensions", even of the >"supernatural" kind. But there is also an obvious "ET" problem. >I criticized the analysis of Martin Shough because I am less and >less patient with any discourse which results in casting doubt >on the reality of UFOs as real crafts, with obvious military >significance, as in the well documented cases nuclear missiles >being disabled (not only in the US but also in Russia, by the >way). There is no lack of proof there, contrary to what Martin >just suggested. Hi Gildas First: I think you raise an interesting question. If indeed there is a spectrum of strange, so-called other-dimensional or "supernatural" phenomena associated with, but distinct from, an "obvious ET problem", then I think we need some explicit analysis of what does or does not belong in whivh category and how we, as somewhat ill-informed spectators of this phantasmagoria, are to tell them apart reliably. Is it sufficient that a techy thing like an ICBM is involved for an invisible, trackless gremlin who fiddles with secret codes and combinations to be called an "obvious ET"? Is it sufficient that a similar thing happen in my kitchen microwave timer or my garage for it to be called an "obvious poltergeist"? And if the mechanism that is next disabled is the car that was a moment ago in my garage, but is now on a lonely country road, is it enough to call it a "UFO case" because I saw an odd light drift over the trees? And if it _is_ a UFO case, does that make it an "ET problem" or am I taking my poltergeist to work with me - en route maybe to a day's work at my local Minuteman silo? Second: Proof is a subjective or constructive thing, it is a state of affairs which exists when some individual or group of individuals agrees to declare that it does. Individual proof is valued only by the individual; a more consensual proof begins to acquire some small social weight; a final proof - or the nearest thing to it - is the general consensus of those from whom society at large takes its intellectual compass reading. Neither you nor I nor any combination of individuals here can assemble such a definitive consensus, therefore we only have various types of less effectual proofs that we arrive at, either as individuals or as members of various loose alliances of "cognitive deviance". The UFO problem is certainly to a large extent sociological in this way, and there are all sorts of ways in which the inertia of the cognitive majority exploits institutionalised stupidity to legitimate an unreasonable attitude of faux scepticism (blimey! did I really write that??) But anyway, I know that proof is subjective because I have espoused several different definitions of it during the decades of my interest in this mystery, and each of them has been perfectly rational and justifiable at the time. Now, I suspect like many people who I don't appear to have a "club" to belong to. My own individual evolution through these states of proof has not led either to a final and unexpected apotheosis or to the satisfaction of knowing I was right the first time. Like Jerry, I suspect, I'm in a continuous state of being a switch hung-up between ON and OFF. I haven't his wide experience - and maybe I haven't your either - but I have tried as hard as I can in a number of cases to reach a state of having complete confidence in the evidence and a gut certainty that this or that was an UNKNOWN you could take to the bank next year and the year after. I've never yet found that case. There always seems to be some little flaw or loophole that spoils the proof. But I'm still intrigued and I'm still trying. I'm just less easily impressed than I used to be!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Deniers Denied - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:19:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:41:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Deniers Denied - Rudiak >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0500 >Subject: Deniers Denied >These (Second Generation) young-turks would become known by >their, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative >imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and >their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, hmmm. >The listener may begin to see a pattern emerge, >And it just gets better! >Just Lately, now, as if sprung from the head of some nay-saying >Zeus, there comes a _new_ group of mal-intellectual mouth- >breathers we can identify handily as "neo-klasskurtzians" and >"post-pelicanists." >These can be identified handily, by their, you might have >guessed, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative >imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and >their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, >These new Turks have continued the time honored (if ineffective) >tradition of intellectual cowardice and ethical Machiavellianism >in new and exciting ways! Oh - they've outdone themselves! >Simply, they hijack the internet making all the trouble for them >in the first place, and produce snappy little blogs or richly >appointed little web-sites, charming little focal points for >personal assaults, attacks on livelihood, and other organized >tactics of the, cognitively _bigoted_ and the cluelessly >_intolerant_. Gee, Alfred, you're so vague here that I can't imagine who these new Turks with their clueless blogs and character assassination might be. <grin> Another word leaps to mind to describe them: bullshitters...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:09:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:47:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:47:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four ><snip> >There is a part of the interview where the reporter is asking >the abductee about sleep paralysis and what she thought of it as >an explanation for our experiences. She gave a brilliant >response. You'll have to listen to the program to find out what >it was she said. The reason I bring this up at all is because of >something she mentioned in closing. She said; >I paraphrase... >" If I was suffering from a lifetime of sleep paralysis, where >did it go then? Myself and other experiencers have stopped >having the experiences. If I had sleep paralysis, it would still >be going on. We all want to know what happened. Why it suddenly >stopped happening." >Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather! Hello John, EBK and everyone, Long time no chat! I experienced ASP for most of my life and once for an intense three-year period with all the whistles and bells. I've belonged to an Internet ASP group for a long time now. What I should point out is that many people who experience ASP for most of life often stop experincing it, often, it seems, when they start getting older. Who knows the reason why it starts and stops? And people often go through a three year period of it. Moving seems to help stop ASP, which leads some people to think that people who experience ASP are sensitive to electromagnetic pollution, whatever that it. Also, it seems to lessen as one ages, if not stop completely. I personally think it may be caused by a virus that causes hyper-dreaming. Anyway, there are many similarities between ASP and abduction, and you should know that on the ASP List many people have stopped experiencing ASP. Same as you folks. Weird eh? Beats me what's going on with ASP and abductions!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:55:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>Notice the negative color image of the boy on the bicycle. That >>>image was not placed on that page until today June 13, 2005 (7pm >>>CDT). It merely has the same file name. The cached page would >>>make it seem like the image was there earlier but I assure you >>>it wasn't. >>>Perhaps Santiago had seen similar images before but I'm not >>>convinced he saw them on the "Signs" page except as cached >>>file names. >>Yes, it seems this is a file name issue, not an image issue. I >>was able to talk with Jeff and Brian and the scenario you >>describe in your post is an accurate representation of what >>occurred. In fact, what I was sent shows this was explained to >>the individual responsible for promoting the "recycled image" >>spin on this. An explanation that was provided prior to the >>posting on UpDates regarding this. I am curious as to why the >>post would be written without any mention of the file name >>explanation. It makes one suspicious of the real intent here. >Just recently there has been reference to a french page that >supposedly shows the May 28 google cache >http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ >but I looked at that page and found that the images displayed >are not from either a google cache or from ufotheatre.com >They are stored and referenced from the very same geocities >site. Therefore that page does not represent Google's cache but >it has been manipulated to look like a legitimate cache. >The only way that page would be valid is if it was a true >snapshot taken before June 5th. Otherwise it is worthless. >It was a nice try though. Really Terry? It seems to me that you are trying dessperately to cover-up something here, speaking for Brian and acting like his lawyer for some reason. The French researcher I mentioned has authorized me to share with all the link to his website where he stores the mirror he saved from the Google cache of the Signs from the Sky webpage. He also found the same anomaly and shared this mirror with me and I posted it on my personal webpage at geocities for all to check. The response was extraordinary and today the webpage exceeded the bandwidth limits. It seems everybody is interested in seeing the famous Google cache of the mentioned webpage. Therefore I asked my friend and colleague in France to authorize me to share his link to have an alternate source and he kindly agreed. These are facts and I speak with evidence on hand, not just with words, so please Terry, be serious and don't invent things. I realize now Terry that you and I may be arguing around this issue forever without agreement. I may be wrong but I still have my doubts. Therefore I decided to put to rest this discussion with you and let people review the evidence and express their opinions. These are the links: http://signes.coza.net/ovni/phoenix-05062005/cache-google.htm http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ Regards to all,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:48 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:05:54 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Gottschall >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at all. Neither >study does the other any real good. Larry, But, but, but... UFOs and religion don't mix you say? Or, is it that it challenges us to the point of confusion, where lines become so blurred we get lost in our narrow human perspective? What about accounts in the Christian bible? There seems to be considerable evidence that suggests many people had ET contact. They not only had contact but described the craft and their visitors in detail. It's also clear, at least to me, that these visitors were intent in passing on to man, through certain individuals, moral and practical advice for an improved development of human society. The contactees of the 50s and 60s seemed to be a repeated attempt at this. I'd like to draw List members attention to a book entitled, Extraterrestrials In Biblical Prophecy, by G. Cope Schellhorn. He gives the subject a thorough workout, the best I've read so far. There are other religious accounts to examine too. Joseph Smith from the Book of Mormon is an interesting one. His official version is at: http://www.irr.org/mit/First-Vision-Scans/first-vision-1838.html Curiously he says from verse 15 to 20: "...when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. 16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction=F7not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being=F7just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. 17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)=F7and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home." There are some very close similarities to todays contact/abduction accounts there. Do you recognise them? Also, consider how Smith went on to form a religious organisation and how this trend injects itself into the lives of contactees too. I think if we don't include religious accounts and a careful examination of them, not to mention the legacy they left our world societies with, we do the UFO subject a great disservice.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:15:53 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:31:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos - Balaskas >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:08:34 -0400 >Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:14:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Mexico 'Fleet' Videos <snip> >>This fact reminded me of a similar UFO experience I had from a >>mountain top with a string of unexplained lights straight ahead >>of me that I thought were in the sky above the distant horizon. >>Since I was on a mountain top and the horizon was not visible >>that clear dark night, I naturely assumed that the horizon would >>be a little below the string of lights. You can read below in an >>e-mail that was posted on UFO UpDates how even someone with much >>training in astronomy and optics can be fooled. >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m27-014.shtml >>Since light is refracted or bent more at the horizon than it is >>at higher elevations and we are all familiar with the flattened >>and sometimes layered images of the Sun and Moon when they are >>setting, the similar appearance of a couple of the brighter UFOs >>suggested to me that they too were distant distorted ground >>level objects at the horizon rather than aerial objects much >>closer to the Mexican airplane. >This has been a subject of heated debate for over a year now. >Were all th FLIR lights simply distant oil field burnoff-flames >or some other ground lights, or were at least some (at least >one?) not on the ground. Some people are certain they were oil >field fires, The Mexican Air Force could provide experimental >evidence to prove or disprove the oil field/ground light theory. >But they haven't done it. The closest they hav come is to >provide anecdotal evidence such as: we hav flown in that area >for years and we have never seen the oil fires or anything >resembling these FLIR images before. <snip> Hi Bruce! If the Mexican Air Force were to fly many times over the very same region where those "UFOs" were picked up and each time their FLIR camera did not pick up anything, this would _not_ rule out that the UFOs were distant oil field burnoff-flames. Just as I tried unsuccessfully on other clear nights to see the distant lights of Port Sudan hundreds of miles away across the cloudy/hazy Red Sea from the 2000 meter tall Asir mountains of Saudi Arabia (see above URL), for similar reasons the Mexican Air Force too would be unsuccessful in spotting those distant oil fires again at will. The reason they would likely be unsuccessful, even on clear nights with no clouds in the sky is very simple. IR cameras can detect heat sources in the dark where nothing is visible to our eyes. Since water (including clouds) absorbs IR radiation, the normally very humid air low along the horizon, over water, would be opaque to such radiation. Only on those rare occasions when the air is very dry at such low altitudes across the water all the way to the horizon can we expect to see these oil fires again. The Mexican Air Force claim that they have never seen the oil fires, or anything resembling these FLIR images before, is a very important one since it actually strengthens the case that the UFOs picked up by their FLIR camera were oil fires! So even if the Mexican Air Force were to provide the experimental evidence you want, by having them refly the mission, it would still not allow us to conclude if the many hot sources detected by their FLIR camera, that special day, were either UFOs or oil fires should nothing be spotted on the test flight. If anyone of the researchers I gave video copies of the Mexican UFO fleet footage to (which includes much footage of the alleged UFOs taken with the FLIR camera) have comments about the Mexican Air Force UFO incident, I will make them available to you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:32:37 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:18:11 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:51:22 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:10 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >>>Personally, I don't think UFOs and religion mix at >>>all. Neither study does the other any real good. >>I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >>unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >>in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >>aspect is sheer timidity. >The issue, perhaps, is the question of whether or not you're >going to view this as a "scientific" pursuit, or "spiritual" >one. Once one enters the spiritual realm, the primary foundation >for belief becomes faith, and (IMO) that is a disaster for the >scientific pursuit. Let's just for sake of argument assume for a moment that UFOs _might_ be a "spiritual" phenomenon. Then a "spiritual" phenomenon has measurable physical effects on radar beams, light, physical trace effects, EM effects, etc. In that case the much-maligned "spiritual" realm no longer remains the much disparaged fantasy land of nonsense and wishful thinking of soft-headed, religiously-motivated, gullible types but becomes a scientifically investigatable phenomenon. Don't you think that scares the daylights out of the CSICOP types? Haven't you ever wondered why the atheist groups have long been in the forefront of attacking UFO research, when one might think they would want to eagerly embrace such proof of life evolving on other planets?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Bueche From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:21:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Bueche >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:59:54 +0100 >Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:22:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >Eleanor, James, >I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my understanding >is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to a Faraday >Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where it's >claimed people have been abducted from vehicles? Ah, but if cars were, indeed, cages that souls cannot pass through, then automobile backseat related recreational activities should not have produced so many babies, and cars would be sold in drug stores.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:23:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Terry Groff >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >Just recently there has been reference to a french page that >supposedly shows the May 28 google cache >http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ >but I looked at that page and found that the images displayed >are not from either a google cache or from ufotheatre.com >They are stored and referenced from the very same geocities >site. Therefore that page does not represent Google's cache but >it has been manipulated to look like a legitimate cache. >The only way that page would be valid is if it was a true >snapshot taken before June 5th. Otherwise it is worthless. >It was a nice try though. Terry: Thanks for applying some critical thought to the issue. While I have not looked at the French Page, I was able to look at your experiment with Google and even tried it myself. It would seem some effort has been made to muddy the waters here. The frustrating part is in the time I took to check this all out, I could have been done analyzing the actual video/data. I suspect that even though you formulated a theory, made predictions, tested it, published/posted it and its reproducible, you still will have some that will rationalize it all away. No use dwelling on that, as efforts to make the video suspect does not make it any more authentic then thinking "it looks too good" means its a fabrication.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:14:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:29:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running - Shough >Source: News.Com.Au >http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15620461-17001,00.html >June 15, 2005 >Man Sees UFO Two Nights Running >By Eric Tlozek >Chris Peacock didn't believe in UFOs - until he saw one two >nights in a row. >The retired bricklayer was star-gazing while he tried to get >back to sleep at 3am on Monday. >Instead he saw something that kept him awake until daybreak. >"I looked at the stars and then one of them looked like it >moved," he said. >"It became bright, then moved up and down and made weird shapes >in the sky." >Mr Peacock, 53, woke his wife and showed her the object. >His 20-year-old daughter also saw it as she was getting ready to >go to work. >He said it appeared in the sky north of his CBD apartment, over >Mindil Beach and East Point. <snip> >Peacock said the object continued its apparently random movement >across the sky almost until dawn, when it disappeared. >He dismissed it as a strange phenomenon until he saw it reappear >yesterday morning. >"Whenever I have woken it's been there," he said. >"You would think someone else would have spotted it." From this spot N of Alice Springs at 0300 on June 13 Vega was mag 0.0 low in the NW, but set by about 0530, long before dawn. However the planet Mars, magnitude 1.1, was at about 35 degrees in the NE moving to about 70 degrees in the NNW by sunrise around 0700 local. A repeater like this is often astronomical and he describes what
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Notice From The Brazilian UFO Magazine From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:31:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:33:21 -0400 Subject: Notice From The Brazilian UFO Magazine Notice From The Brazilian UFO Magazine Due to a failure in the process of installing a spam filter in our server's main control panel, all messages sent to any of the addresses of the UFO domain: name.nul were irreversibly discarded and were not received by the intended recipients. If you sent an e-mail to any address .nul _after_ 03:00 pm yesterday, June 15th, please send it again.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Deniers Denied - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:08:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:37:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Deniers Denied - Lehmberg >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:19:35 -0700 >Subject: Re: Deniers Denied >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0500 >>Subject: Deniers Denied >>These (Second Generation) young-turks would become known by >>their, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative >>imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and >>their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, hmmm. >>The listener may begin to see a pattern emerge, >>And it just gets better! >>Just Lately, now, as if sprung from the head of some nay-saying >>Zeus, there comes a _new_ group of mal-intellectual mouth- >>breathers we can identify handily as "neo-klasskurtzians" and >>"post-pelicanists." >>These can be identified handily, by their, you might have >>guessed, self-serving illogic, their utter lack of creative >>imagination, their condescending and insulting manners, and >>their ready penchant for unjust character assassination, >>These new Turks have continued the time honored (if ineffective) >>tradition of intellectual cowardice and ethical Machiavellianism >>in new and exciting ways! Oh - they've outdone themselves! >>Simply, they hijack the internet making all the trouble for them >>in the first place, and produce snappy little blogs or richly >>appointed little web-sites, charming little focal points for >>personal assaults, attacks on livelihood, and other organized >>tactics of the, cognitively _bigoted_ and the cluelessly >>_intolerant_. >Gee, Alfred, you're so vague here that I can't imagine who these >new Turks with their clueless blogs and character assassination >might be. <grin> >Another word leaps to mind to describe them: bullshitters... >and nasty ones at that. The nastiest, actually, as some of these cloak their arrogant efforts in a ratty mantle of evenhandedness, rationality, and a scientistic (sic) faux-scientific 'method'... very appealing to the worried fence-sitter - who is cloyingly enticed into this unjustified monkey hubris while ironically encouraged to label _me_ the bully... when their real interest is self-aggrandizing self-abuse, personal enrichment, and prosecution of their back- stepping agenda's two color bias. I love humanity, it's people I can't stand, to quote from the big shoulders. I especially love it when some of these make fun of my given name. With a handle like Alfred Emanuel Lehmberg III, those particular calluses had already gotten pretty thick... forgetting these "fecal artists" ape the insentient fop in 'Cyrano de Bergerac' who walked up to Cyrano early in the play and said, " Sir, your nose is... hmm... it is... very big!", then smirks complacently at his buddies. There were consequences as I recall. In the dictionary the word "pathetic" features an illustration of them in a group portrait. They provoke the game of Whack-A- Mole I'd play with some of them, beg for the rocks thrown in their cave mouth to bring them out, and are beneath contempt in a final analysis. The accusers stand accused. How much respect am I supposed to have for them, I wonder?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:12:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:41:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four - Velez >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:09:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:47:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Audio John Mack On BBC Radio Four >><snip> >>There is a part of the interview where the reporter is asking >>the abductee about sleep paralysis and what she thought of it as >>an explanation for our experiences. She gave a brilliant >>response. You'll have to listen to the program to find out what >>it was she said. The reason I bring this up at all is because of >>something she mentioned in closing. She said; >>I paraphrase... >>" If I was suffering from a lifetime of sleep paralysis, where >>did it go then? Myself and other experiencers have stopped >>having the experiences. If I had sleep paralysis, it would still >>be going on. We all want to know what happened. Why it suddenly >>stopped happening." >>Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather! >Hello John, EBK and everyone, >Long time no chat! >I experienced ASP for most of my life and once for an intense >three-year period with all the whistles and bells. >I've belonged to an Internet ASP group for a long time now. >What I should point out is that many people who experience ASP >for most of life often stop experincing it, often, it seems, >when they start getting older. Who knows the reason why it >starts and stops? And people often go through a three year >period of it. >Moving seems to help stop ASP, which leads some people to think >that people who experience ASP are sensitive to electromagnetic >pollution, whatever that it. >Also, it seems to lessen as one ages, if not stop completely. >I personally think it may be caused by a virus that causes >hyper-dreaming. Hi Kelly, You wrote: >Anyway, there are many similarities between ASP and abduction, >and you should know that on the ASP List many people have >stopped experiencing ASP. Same as you folks. Weird eh? What you fail to acknowledge is the fact that there are also many differences too. The most important one being that people with ASP do not have SP experiences while wide awake and walking around. ASP does not involve multiple witness UFO encounters either. In fact, there are so many 'differences' that any comparison for purposes of identifying one as the other are almost ludicrous. This ground has been covered a thousand times. I'm not going to go over it again. Suffice it to say, I do not, and have never, suffered from sleep paralysis. UFOs and aliens? Yes. All my life. And several of those events happened while awake and in the middle of my daily activities. There have been others present during several UFO sightings as well. The day you can tell me that sleep paralysis causes others to see the same 'hallucination' I am seeing, or that it can happen while you're walking home, then I'll give it more thought. Until then... no soap. Not even close. >Beats me what's going on with ASP and abductions!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:53:57 -0400 Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? Somewhat surprising that there has not been more discussion here of Prophet Yahweh aka Ramon Watkins apparent ability to summon UFO's on demand. Seems like it should be a fairly big deal in ufological circles when a man issues a claim that he can summon ufo's at will and then does exactly that in front of a TV crew. For those unfamiliar with this event, check out the video from KTNV in Las Vegas taken on May 28, 2005. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44503 Maybe the story needs to "cure" for 20 years before it generates any real interest here! After viewing the video it would be nice if someone could explain the apparent motion of the UFO and how such an event could be faked by an accomplice with a balloon. Not saying it couldn't, just curious as to how one would account for winds, etc. Frankly, Watkins himself just doesn't seem bright enough to do any sophisticated hoaxing. The talking heads at the station yuk it up and joke around about
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:57:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Santiago Yturria Garza >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Rob Kritkausky >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >The response was extraordinary and today the webpage exceeded >the bandwidth limits. It seems everybody is interested in seeing >the famous Google cache of the mentioned webpage. >Therefore I asked my friend and colleague in France to authorize >me to share his link to have an alternate source and he kindly >agreed. These are facts and I speak with evidence on hand, not >just with words, so please Terry, be serious and don't invent >things. >I realize now Terry that you and I may be arguing around this >issue forever without agreement. I may be wrong but I still have >my doubts. >Therefore I decided to put to rest this discussion with you and >let people review the evidence and express their opinions. >These are the links: >http://signes.coza.net/ovni/phoenix-05062005/cache-google.htm >http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ Boy, I hope I'm not the only one that finds this disconcerting. There really isn't much incentive to check your work, when doing so might stifle the flow of visitors to your web site. What a convenient world to live in however... a place where the consequences of being wrong are confined to neat little treats like "record web traffic". Conscience is obviously "optional" in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:22:57 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:02:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:55:48 +0100 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:04 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? <snip> >>I criticized the analysis of Martin Shough because I am less and >>less patient with any discourse which results in casting doubt >>on the reality of UFOs as real craft, with obvious military >>significance, as in the well documented cases nuclear missiles >>being disabled (not only in the US but also in Russia, by the >>way). There is no lack of proof there, contrary to what Martin >>just suggested. >First: I think you raise an interesting question. If indeed >there is a spectrum of strange, so-called other-dimensional or >"supernatural" phenomena associated with, but distinct from, an >"obvious ET problem", then I think we need some explicit >analysis of what does or does not belong in whivh category and >how we, as somewhat ill-informed spectators of this >phantasmagoria, are to tell them apart reliably. Hi Martin, I grant you that it is very difficult to perform such an analysis. Another aspect of the problem is that certain ETs may be masters of deception themselves. Their agenda might be, first to begin to unveil their presence gradually; second to maintain a certain level of doubt on their ET nature, by playing lots of tricks. So, you have two symetric possibilities: - Entities who want us to believe they are ETs (Vallee-Keel theories) - ETs playing all sorts of tricks for the opposite reason. And that is not all - many aspects of ET interventions may be of a nature that our conventional wisdom calls "paranormal phenomena". For instance, abductors passing through roofs and walls. And perhaps they don't care about how we undertand that. >Is it sufficient that a techy thing like an ICBM is involved >for an invisible, trackless gremlin who fiddles with secret >codes and combinations to be called an "obvious ET"? In such cases, I would think that they definitely wanted their presence to be known, at least by the military. The message being in fact a warning - be careful with your bombs. We are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:01:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:44:28 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - White >From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 >Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? <snip> >The talking heads at the station yuk it up and joke around about >the story but the video speaks for itself. How the heck did he >do it? Some say it was a stunt, using as-yet-classified holographic projection. I heard one caller to a radio show say that he saw this technology in use at a cosmetics trade show and it was stunning. Our members (in the high tech harassment target community) also report apparent holographic projections of things like a non- moving person standing on a nearby roof, which then disappears instantly. It's still unclear if what is referred to as "NASA's Project
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:30:03 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shell >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:32:37 EDT >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >In that case the much-maligned "spiritual" realm no longer >remains the much disparaged fantasy land of nonsense and wishful >thinking of soft-headed, religiously-motivated, gullible types >but becomes a scientifically investigatable phenomenon. "The method of science, the aim of religion" - Aleister Crowley's motto. >Don't you think that scares the daylights out of the CSICOP >types? Yep. It seems to scare the hell out of a number of members of this List as well. >Haven't you ever wondered why the atheist groups have long been >in the forefront of attacking UFO research, when one might think >they would want to eagerly embrace such proof of life evolving >on other planets? >UFOs represent to them the terrifying _possibility_, however >remote, of scientific proof of the supernatural. "Any technology distinguishable from magic is not advanced enough" I found this quote a while back but have not been able to find an attribution. I would love to know who said that. Much of what we take for granted today would have seemed like magic to a well educated person only a couple hundred years ago. What has been called "supernatural", "spiritual", "paranormal", "magic", etc., may simply be manifestations of technology that we are helpless to comprehend. We tend to think of technology in terms of nuts and bolts hardware, but that may be merely a temporary situation in our technological evolution. To put on mental blinders just because something disturbs or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:32:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>Just recently there has been reference to a french page that >>supposedly shows the May 28 google cache >>http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ >>but I looked at that page and found that the images displayed >>are not from either a google cache or from ufotheatre.com >>They are stored and referenced from the very same geocities >>site. Therefore that page does not represent Google's cache but >>it has been manipulated to look like a legitimate cache. >>The only way that page would be valid is if it was a true >>snapshot taken before June 5th. Otherwise it is worthless. >>It was a nice try though. >Really Terry? It seems to me that you are trying dessperately to >cover-up something here, speaking for Brian and acting like his >lawyer for some reason. >The French researcher I mentioned has authorized me to share >with all the link to his website where he stores the mirror he >saved from the Google cache of the Signs from the Sky >webpage. He also found the same anomaly and shared this mirror >with me and I posted it on my personal webpage at geocities for >all to check. >The response was extraordinary and today the webpage exceeded >the bandwidth limits. It seems everybody is interested in seeing >the famous Google cache of the mentioned webpage. >Therefore I asked my friend and colleague in France to authorize >me to share his link to have an alternate source and he kindly >agreed. These are facts and I speak with evidence on hand, not >just with words, so please Terry, be serious and don't invent >things. >I realize now Terry that you and I may be arguing around this >issue forever without agreement. I may be wrong but I still have >my doubts. >Therefore I decided to put to rest this discussion with you and >let people review the evidence and express their opinions. >These are the links: >http://signes.coza.net/ovni/phoenix-05062005/cache-google.htm >http://www.geocities.com/visual3d/ Santiago, Me? A lawyer? That's a laugh. I am just a poor musician and webmaster. (Yes, I am a webmaster for three websites) I am not covering up anything. I am uncovering your weak Google caching evidence though. That French page was created on June 12th. Yours was created on Jun 14th. The only way either page would be real evidence is if they had been created back on May 28th, the same day as the original google cache. Otherwise they are only copies of the way the Google cache looked on the day your "snapshots" were made, after the AZ images were uploaded to the ufotheatre.com server. I am not promoting this video. I don't know if it is real or fake. I'll leave that up to the experts. But I DO know how Google caching works and I do know what "mirror" web pages are and none of your evidence is valid. Once even one word in the HTML code is changed (which is what the French 'researcher' did when he changed the HTML code to the file names of the images) it renders the page invalid. Google does not cache images it only caches filenames. Why can't you understand that? All that French page indicates is that those images were on the ufotheatre.com server on June 12th. It does not prove otherwise. I don't know Brian Bessent, except I once purchased some videos of some Red Orbs taped in Wise County Texas. He still owes me one of those videos. If anything I should be lambasting Mr. Bessent for shortchanging me on a purchase. But that has nothing to do with this case. It is I that questions your motives. You apparently have some sort of vendetta against Brian Bessent. You should be channeling
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Koch From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:28:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:31:50 -0400 Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update - Koch >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:26:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: UN Petition Signature Update Hi John, Please give me permission to place a link for your petition on my website. I think this will help you a bit. I have seen that there is a German translation. Great! What if anybody here on this list would do the same?! Greetings,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:01:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:51:38 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:32:37 EDT >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>Don't you think that scares the daylights out of the CSICOP >>types? >Yep. It seems to scare the hell out of a number of members of >this List as well. Whom specifically, Bob? I have seen no evidence of abject terror in anybody's remarks, pro or con, but maybe you know something the rest of us don't. Or are you too frightened to speak out? Brad is quite right that CSICOP's assault on anomalies and paranormal is a very thinly concealed attack on religion, to which its minions fear phenomena not immediately explainable may give aid and comfort. That's why CSICOP - like arguments are so difficult to get a grip on. If you don't see anomalous phenomena such as UFOs or cryptozoological animals as relevant to religious matters, as most of us who are interested in them don't (or at least in the sense conjured up in CSICOPian polemical blasts), it's not easy to have a mutually comprehensible conversation with a committed, self-described rationalist. You think you're working at something like science, and he is sure you're trying to undermine the fabric of reason and civilization with some sort of faith-based advocacy program. (I might interject here that my own interest in anomalies has made me in many ways more _skeptical_ of religious claims. Thoughtful anomalists will know exactly what I mean.) I've noticed lately that - as could have been predicted - anomalistics are getting dragged into ongoing disputes, generated by the religious right's crusade to put its particular creation myths into the educational system, about evolution. Self-described rationalists are taking advantage of the opportunity to renew their jihad against UFOs and other heresies, taking care to sneer at them in the same breath as they do creationism, as if these issues were in any way related beyond the critics' loathing for all. The rhetorical strategy is, of course, drearily familiar. In the current exchange on the List, I have noted with dismay the mistiness of language which, one imagines, only gives fuel to CSICOPian hysteria. For example, the use of "spiritual," a religious word, employed when the correspondent (as I nearly as I can infer) means only "very strange" and "well beyond current knowledge." Or, even more trivially, non- or anti-ETH approaches to ufology which can be discussed and debated without reference to religion or spirit or God or gods or whatever but which quickly collapse into angels dancing on tops of pins otherwise. That sort of rhetorical sloppiness, unfortunately, only confuses already difficult issues, leading - among other things - to Shell's inexplicable charge above. Let's all make an effort to be more precise in our language,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:04:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:01:23 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Dickenson >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >"Any technology distinguishable from magic is not advanced >enough" >I found this quote a while back but have not been able to find >an attribution. I would love to know who said that. Hi Bob, that's Arthur C Clarke's quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles Of The Future, 1961 (Clarke's third law) Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Boone From: Greg Boone Evolbaby.nul Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:04:35 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:05:05 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Boone >From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 >Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? >Somewhat surprising that there has not been more discussion >here >of Prophet Yahweh aka Ramon Watkins apparent ability to >summon >UFO's on demand. Seems like it should be a fairly big deal in >ufological circles when a man issues a claim that he can >summon >ufo's at will and then does exactly that in front of a TV crew. >For those unfamiliar with this event, check out the video from >KTNV in Las Vegas taken on May 28, 2005. >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44503 >Maybe the story needs to "cure" for 20 years before it >generates >any real interest here! >After viewing the video it would be nice if someone could >explain the apparent motion of the UFO and how such an event >could be faked by an accomplice with a balloon. Not saying it >couldn't, just curious as to how one would account for winds, >etc. Frankly, Watkins himself just doesn't seem bright enough >to >do any sophisticated hoaxing. >The talking heads at the station yuk it up and joke around about >the story but the video speaks for itself. How the heck did he >do it? Erik, on the contrary I think there's lots of interest in the story yet in this field of research, Ufology, interest is best tempered with patience and caution. It's best to let an incident like this prove itself than spread limited resources and brain power away from other more reliable paths of discovery. It's like that old story of the two cowboys on their way home after buying brand new shiney cowboy boots. They were walking along the road when suddenly a herd of cows and bulls strolled through and blocked their way. The younger cowboy afeared he'd get his new boots soiled said to the older, wiser cowboy, "Let's run through them bulls and cows before they get to grazing so we don't step in any bullstuff! " The older, wiser cowboy replied, "Let's just mosey on through to make sure we don't step in any at all! " So in essence what I'm saying is in Ufology or in any incident where bizarre claims are made like someone can summon UFOs or someone has a new energy source or someone has a new alien body part, it's alot like the joke above. Let the gent Prophet Yahweh prove it by doing what he says he can do outside with his arms raised and shoutin' to the skies. At a minimum you can say he's "outstanding in his field" of research. Bullstuff is everywhere and the best way to not step in any is to take your time and keep your eyes, ears, and nose open. Of course the joke above I just made up but I felt it appropriate. Ufology is a field of study, we have to be vigilant to prevent it from becoming a racket.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 16 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:13:57 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:09:21 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - >From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 >Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? >Somewhat surprising that there has not been more discussion here >of Prophet Yahweh aka Ramon Watkins apparent ability to summon >UFO's on demand. Seems like it should be a fairly big deal in >ufological circles when a man issues a claim that he can summon >ufo's at will and then does exactly that in front of a TV crew. >For those unfamiliar with this event, check out the video from >KTNV in Las Vegas taken on May 28, 2005. >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44503 >Maybe the story needs to "cure" for 20 years before it generates >any real interest here! >After viewing the video it would be nice if someone could >explain the apparent motion of the UFO and how such an event >could be faked by an accomplice with a balloon. Not saying it >couldn't, just curious as to how one would account for winds, >etc. Frankly, Watkins himself just doesn't seem bright enough to >do any sophisticated hoaxing. >The talking heads at the station yuk it up and joke around about >the story but the video speaks for itself. How the heck did he >do it? Hi Erik! The power of suggestion can never be overlooked and should never be underestimated. On Tuesday night I took a video clip with my digital camera of what looked like a fleet of luminous UFOs flying in formation over downtown Toronto. Really. After my friend (a physics engineering technologist) and I along with about 30,000 other baseball fans had exited SkyDome stadium (now renamed Rogers Centre), I first noticed wave after wave of bright UFOs flying past over the studium. I decided to try and video record this unexpected UFO flyby with my digital camera while narrating what I saw in a loud voice so my friend, who soon after started to take videos himself with his compact video camera, could hear me. After I finished taking the video footage, my friend told me to look around and see what I had caused. To my surprise, there was a crowd of people looking and pointing at these same UFOs in sky! Many were even taking still and moving pictures of these UFOs with their own cameras! Of course I had deduced early on that these brightly illuminated UFOs flying in the night sky over the dark stadium had to be birds that were reflecting light from the powerful floodlights on the stadium roof but I am not sure the very suggestive witnesses all around me would agree. When I downloaded the lower resolution video clip of these birds in flight at work the next day, to my surprise they did indeed look more like UFOs than birds! If anyone is interested in seeing my video clip of UFOs flying over the stadium (or the few higher resolution still pictures I took separately with the same digital camera which show parallel streaks rather than points of light), e-mail me and I will send it as an attachment. Who knows, after you view the evidence you may be able to convince me too that these were really UFOs after all. Important things are happening in ufology and we should be very careful not to be distracted by or become too busy investigating the very dubious Prophet Yahweh incident which can easily and reasonably be explained in prosaic terms rather than entertaining a possible supernatural or religious explanation at this early stage. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:46:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:46:40 -0400 Subject: The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity Source: Barista - Heartstarters For The Hungry Mind http://dox.media2.org/barista/archives/002184.html#more June 16, 2005 The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity "Dellschau (1830-1923) was an enigmatic self-taught artist - a Texas butcher who spent his retirement cloistered in an attic painting large-scale books of flying machines. Forgotten for nearly fifty years after his death, his books were unearthed in the late 1960s.." But he is also the centre of an engagingly demented theory about a secret society which developed new forms of flight in the 1850's, in machines which were mistaken for UFO's over the next 150 years. In the true pattern of the outsider myth, his work was found in the garbage thirty years after he died. The story of Dellschau and the Sonora Flying Club is picked in by Rawvision: '...Pete Navarro, a Houston artist with an interest in the reported airship sightings, discovered Dellschau's notebooks at their first public display in 1969, traced them back to Fred Washington's store and purchased the remaining eight books. He then began his own intensive study of Dellschau and his work, and made what is to date the most detailed analysis of every known book Dellschau produced and, in doing so, believes he has partially decoded his encrypted message. Piecing together translations of Dellschau's symbolic writing with research on the names and places found in the drawings, he believes he may have reconstructed not only Dellschau's life chronology, but also an important chapter of early aeronautical history. He writes: 'Sometime around 1850 a group of men who were interested in aeronautics met in a Sonora, California hotel to form the Aero Club, later renamed the Sonora Aero Club. The organization was financed by an even more mysterious society from 'back east' known only as NYMZA.' Composed mainly of Germans and some Englishmen, the club was fanatically secretive about its activities, demanding that members abided by strict rules. A member who had threatened to publicize some of the group's discoveries apparently fell victim to a mysterious aerial explosion allegedly arranged by fellow club members. Navarro also believes NYMZA members had developed an anti-gravity gas, and that this supposedly light green substance provided the lift power for their designs. Research has failed to turn up any evidence conclusive enough to prove -- or disprove -- Navarro's theory, but Dellschau's work holds its own clues, suggesting that Navarro's hypothesis may have some validity. More details joyously assembled by Metafilter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Secrets Of The Sonora Aero Club From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:01:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:01:40 -0400 Subject: Secrets Of The Sonora Aero Club Source: Houston Press http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/1998-12-10/news/feature.html December 10, 1998 Secrets Of The Sonora Aero Club A tale of UFOs, art collectors and the shadows of history By Cynthia Greenwood In 1899, Charles Dellschau, a grouchy retired butcher, began to paint amazing airships. His intricate collages show shiplike decks supported by striped balloon pontoons; they show bright- colored helicopters and evil-looking striped dirigibles outfitted for war; they show crews of dapper little gentlemen accompanied by the occasional cat. Many pages are bedecked with little newspaper clippings about aviation, and text in his weird Germanic lettering celebrates the pure, unexcelled marvelousness of the flying machines. Nearly a century later, folk-art collectors hold the works in high esteem. A page from Dellschau's notebooks can fetch as much as $15,000, a hefty price even in a booming market. A New York Times reviewer said that Dellschau possesses "a charming style that presages Monty Python"; the Village Voice called the works "sweetly bizarre." It's hard to say what the old man would have made of such praise; he doesn't seem to have thought of himself as an artist. It's not clear even whether he intended the notebooks for anyone's eyes but his own. The drawings are crudely sewn together with shoelaces and thread, and newsprint is glued on the edge of each leaf as a spine. Watercolor airships occupy both sides of the pages. Taken at face value, Dellschau's collages document the feats of the Sonora Aero Club, a secretive group dedicated to the creation of "aeros," or flying machines. In code, and bad spelling in both English and German, Dellschau recounted how, in his youth 50 years before, he and fellow club members gleefully ruled the skies of Gold Rush California, piloting fantastical airships of their own invention. Perhaps the notebooks' tales were merely fictions, Dellschau's efforts to entertain himself. Perhaps the old man had grown a tad deranged. Or perhaps Dellschau was actually recounting the exploits of his youth, embellishing here and there, but remaining somewhat faithful to the facts. Oddly, that last supposition - the strangest possibility of all - seems the most likely. One line of thought even ties the Sonora club to a rash of UFOsightings. But untangling Dellschau's tale is a complicated matter, one that involves penetrating many levels of secrecy, including that of the very people trying to solve his riddles. The puzzle of Dellschau's aeros intrigues both art historians and UFO enthusiasts. Not surprising, most of the hard facts come from the art world. Two years ago, William Steen, a mild-mannered frame designer at the Menil Collection, pieced together documents indicating the sketchy official outlines of Dellschau's life. Steen modestly claims to be no scholar, but his four-sheet chronology of Dellschau's life provides the most reliable biography available. Steen found the immigration record that shows Dellschau's 1853 arrival in the United States. The young immigrant told officials that he was 25 years old; had been born in Brandenburg, Prussia; traveled here from Hamburg and listed his occupation as a farmer. Steen uncovered Dellschau's letter of citizenship, which traces his whereabouts to Harris County in 1856 and Fort Bend County in 1860. Between those years, the historical documents are silent about Dellschau's whereabouts. And it's precisely during that gap that Dellschau claims the Sonora club's exploits took place. So far, Steen has not been able to locate documents showing that Dellschau even lived in California in the 1850s. Nor do there seem to be credible reports of unidentified flying objects in the area. But where the historical records are silent, the artist's notebooks make noisy, extravagant claims. Dellschau represents himself as the club's draftsman and scribe, rather than as one of its inventors or fliers; he never draws himself aboard an aero. He illustrates a remarkable number of designs - maybe as many as 100 - for airships with names such as Aero Mio, Aero Trump, Aero Schnabel and Aero Mary. (There's even an Aero Jourdan.) All were powered by a secret formula that Dellschau called both "supe" and "suppe"; it could both negate gravity and drive the ships' wheels, side paddles and compressor motors. One drawing tells the story of Adolf Goetz's Aero Goeit, recklessly commandeered by an unskilled pilot; the airship got tangled in a Sequoia tree, and the interloper died of a broken neck. Another cautionary tale involves Jacob Mischer, a pilot who went down in flames in the Aero Gander; Dellschau hints that he was sabotaged by other club members, who suspected him of using the aircraft to make money by hauling cargo. But most of the airships' flights were safe - and great fun. Dellschau depicts his aviators enjoying hot breakfasts, and delights in enumerating the ships' clever gadgets. He often bedecked his watercolor paintings with little press clippings - from Scientific American, the Houston Chronicle and an unidentified German-language newspaper - that recount air disasters; Dellschau called them "press blooms." Against paintings of the Sonora club's successes, the clippings seem intended as an ironic counterpoint. Dellschau never seems to explain why the club worked so hard to protect its secrecy, but he shows the members going to great lengths to do so. By day, the Aero Goeit was disguised as a gypsy wagon, so it could travel open roads undetected. Dellschau writes that a club member was banned from developing a machine because he'd talked to outsiders. And of course, even years after the club disbanded, many of Dellschau's own comments are rendered in code. Apparently, whatever it was that he had to say was too private even for his own notebooks. Often the drawings show the heroic Peter Mennis, pilot of the Aero Goose and creator of the near-magical suppe. According to Dellschau's notebooks, Mennis died in the 1860s, and without his secret formula, the club could fly no longer and was forced to disband. In picture after picture, Dellschau laments Mennis's demise. "Peter Mennis you are not forgotten," he writes in one; in another, "no more suppe." Could such wonders have happened? It's a difficult question. If the club were as secretive as Dellschau indicates, the California desert offered privacy. Sonora was a Gold Rush boomtown, six miles south of Columbia, now the site of the Columbia Airport. The airport's land is isolated and flat - ideal for testing aircraft - and is surrounded by mostly hilly terrain. Dellschau's drawings show equipment that would have been revolutionary for the 1850s: gliding keels, revolving generators powered by a chemical reaction, bendable rubber joints, revolving shear blades, even a retractable landing gear. It was heady stuff, highly advanced given the state of technology (the Wright Brothers didn't make their famous flight until 1903). But half a century later, when the old man actually made the drawings, many of those technologies had grown closer to reality. The historical record of Dellschau picks up again in 1861. A certificate from that year shows that Dellschau married Antonia Hilt, a widow with a four-year-old daughter, Elizabeth. It's not clear where Dellschau met and married her or where the family first lived together. In 1865, they were living in Richmond, Texas, a haven for newly arrived Germans and Czechs. That year, Dellschau signed an amnesty oath, swearing that as a former member of the Confederacy, he wouldn't oppose the U.S. laws that freed slaves. (W.M. Von-Maszewski, the Texas historian who translated Dellschau's journals, thinks he may have worked under the Confederates as a civilian.) According to that oath, Dellschau was a butcher. His height was five feet three inches; his hair, auburn; eyes, hazel; and complexion, fair. The one verifiable photo of Dellschau bears out that description and shows him to be a bit gruff and Teutonic, with a large, round forehead beneath a line of receding hair and with bushy eyebrows and a moustache that covers his mouth. Dellschau's wife, Antonia, bore him three children. In 1877, tragedy struck: Antonia died, and their six-year-old son, Edward, died two weeks later. Census records show that Dellschau remained in Richmond for a while afterward with his daughter Bertha. In 1889, the phone directory lists both Dellschau and Bertha in Houston, living with Dellschau's stepdaughter, Elizabeth, and her husband, Anton Stelzig, a harness- and saddle-maker and the founder of the Western clothing store that still exists in Houston. Sometime before 1892, Dellschau's daughter Bertha was diagnosed with tuberculosis and was institutionalized. By 1898, the sanatorium wrote Dellschau that she wouldn't live much longer. For a few years after moving to Houston, Dellschau worked as a salesman and clerk for Stelzig's saddlery and harness business on Main Street, between Congress and Franklin. But the aging butcher - in his late 50s when he moved to Houston - never mastered work in a service industry. "They sent him home," says Leo Stelzig Jr., Anton's grandson. "He was kind of abrupt and wasn't smooth with the customers." It was then that Dellschau began to fill his days by filling his notebooks. He wrote a two-part, 200-page journal and produced roughly 5,000 ink-and-watercolor drawings before his death in 1923. By Steen's calculation, that works out to the furious rate of a drawing every day or two. "He had something to say," Steen concludes. "The most important thing in his life was his work." Leo Stelzig Jr. was two years old when Dellschau died and, as a boy, used to rummage through the attic looking for old letters whose stamps could grace his collection. In the process, he came across Dellschau's belongings and marveled at the bizarre aeros. Dellschau's notebooks languished in the attic until sometime in the 1960s. According to Steen's search of public records, the fire department found the house a fire hazard and ordered that it be cleared of debris. A nurse who'd been hired to care for Anton Stelzig's two aging sisters attacked the job zealously and in the process consigned many of the Stelzigs' valuables to a trash heap on the curb. Among the losses were old World War I uniforms, some very old records and - worst of all - Dellschau's notebooks. Now 74, Leo Stelzig shakes his head sadly as he recounts the nurse's words: "I took care of that mess and cleaned it all up." At the Washington Street dump, an unidentified trash man sold the notebooks to junk man Fred Washington for $100. Washington took them to his O.K. Trading Center on Washington Avenue, where they lay stacked on the floor, covered with a tarp because the building's roof leaked. In 1969, Mary Jane Victor was an art history student at the University of St. Thomas - and a regular patron of the O.K. Trading Center. She remembers being amazed to come across the scrapbooks. At the university art department, Victor was working for art patron Dominique de Menil, a Schlumberger heiress famous for her eye for surrealists and the primitive art that inspired them. Victor promptly told de Menil about her find and put her in touch with the junk dealer. Soon after, the heiress paid Washington $1,500 for four of the earliest notebooks. "Dellschau for her was an eccentric," recalls Steen. "She had a wonderful affinity for eccentrics." Half joking, she told Steen she was especially drawn to the coded phrase "DM=3DX=AF" scrawled across the top of many drawings. She thought DM stood for "Dominique de Menil." And the rest somehow equaled her own death. Soon after de Menil acquired the notebooks, she exhibited some of their leaves in "Flight," a University of St. Thomas show on the subject. And it was there that Pete Navarro, one of the most dogged investigators of Dellschau's mysteries, first encountered the aeros. Navarro, a Houston commercial artist, was intrigued by UFOs, especially by a mysterious rash of airship sightings near the turn of the century, not long before Dellschau began his drawings. Navarro read about the St. Thomas exhibition one morning at the breakfast table. And when he saw Dellschau's drawings, he felt there had to be a connection to the sightings. Ufologists believe that between November 1896 and April 1897, thousands of Americans in 18 states between California and Indiana saw a curious dirigible-like flying machine floating eastward. No physical evidence of a ship or a designer has ever surfaced, but newspapers such as the New York Times, Dallas Morning News, San Antonio Daily Express and Chicago Tribune devoted space to the sightings. In this century, authors Daniel Cohen and William Chariton have published books on the subject. The mysterious craft was first spotted on November 17, 1896, by R.L. Lowery, near a brewery in Sacramento, California. According to various newspaper reports, the craft seemed to travel eastward. In spring, it was spotted in Texas. At 1:16 a.m. on April 17, 1897, the Reverend J.W. Smith saw what he thought was a shooting star in the night sky of Childress, Texas, then decided it was really a flying machine. Eventually he recognized it as the much-discussed cigar-shaped airship. Four days after Smith's UFO sighting, the Houston Daily Post gave a lengthy account of his and other spottings of the same airship, a 30-foot-long skiff-shaped contraption outfitted with revolving wheels and sails. Jim Nelson, a farmer from Atlanta, Texas, recalled glimmers of red, green and blue lights and "a glaring gleam of white light" that shone directly in front of the airship. In Belton, a crowd witnessed the same vehicle the next night. They claimed its pilots spoke loudly as they flew overhead, but the ship's velocity was so great, their words were lost in the wind. According to other newspaper accounts, witnesses managed to talk with the pilots. Sometimes townspeople even came upon the crew members, who were apparently making repairs to their marvelous machine and were willing to chat. In 1972, three years after de Menil bought her four notebooks, Pete Navarro learned that more Dellschau notebooks were collecting dust at Washington's junk shop. Nobody wanted them, so Navarro gave the dealer $65 for one book. Hooked by what he saw, he returned and offered $500 more for the remaining seven. Navarro tried to sell four of the notebooks to de Menil; she chose not to buy them - perhaps because she liked the work in her own notebooks better. De Menil owned some of Dellschau's earliest notebooks and believed that they included his best work. As the artist aged, his works grew looser, more expressionistic; de Menil seems to have preferred his earlier precision. But for Navarro, the notebooks weren't about artistic quality; they were pieces of a historical puzzle. He visited Helen and Tommy Britton, cousins of Leo Jr. Helen promised she'd try to find more books and pictures of Dellschau that were hidden around the family's old house, but she died before she could locate anything. Navarro also talked to Tommy Britton, who was a preteen when Dellschau died. Now in his 80s, he may be the last living relative who remembers Dellschau. (Britton couldn't be reached for this story.) After culling a vast number of such press clippings, Navarro created an elaborate map of every Texas sighting and wrote several papers. Some are on file at the Houston Public Library's Texas archive; others are available on the Internet at www.keelynet.com. In "The Mysterious Mr. Wilson and the Books of Dellschau," co-written with UFO enthusiast Jimmy Ward, Navarro posits a connection between Dellschau's clandestine society and a mysterious pilot named Hiram Wilson mentioned in an article by the San Antonio Daily Express on April 26, 1897, about a local airship sighting. The article identifies the airship's occupants as Wilson, from Goshen, New York; his father, Willard H. Wilson, assistant master mechanic of the New York Central Railroad; and their co-pilot C.J. Walsh, an electrical engineer from San Francisco. In that story, Hiram Wilson divulged to witnesses that his airship design came from an uncle. Navarro believes that the uncle could have been another Wilson - the Sonora club member Tosh Wilson mentioned in one of Dellschau's watercolors. According to Navarro, Dellschau's coded messages say that Tosh searched seven years to rediscover suppe, the lost fuel, and finally succeeded. Navarro has found no trace of a Hiram Wilson residing in Goshen. But he does offer evidence of his presence at 1897 airship sightings in Greenville, Texas (on April 16); near Lake Charles, Louisiana (on April 19); near Beaumont, Texas (April 19); Uvalde, Texas (April 20); Lacoste, Texas (April 24); and Eagle Pass, Texas (April 24). On April 28, the Galveston Daily News ran the headline "Airship Inventor Wilson." The article reported the inventor's encounter with one Captain Akers, a customs agent from Eagle Pass. Akers told the newspaper that Wilson "was a finely educated man about 24 years of age and seemed to have money with which to prosecute his investigations." Based on such reports, Navarro proposes several scenarios. Perhaps the ship spotted near San Antonio had been flown by both Hiram and Willard Wilson. Or perhaps each pilot was steering his own airship across Texas. (This would explain why witnesses living a distance from one another offered simultaneous sightings of a man who identified himself as Wilson.) Navarro also speculates that one of these Wilsons was the same Tosh Wilson who had once belonged to the Sonora Aero Club. In that scenario, Tosh would have been reliving the glory days Dellschau could only illustrate in his notebooks. To confirm the aero club's activities, Navarro has traveled to Sonora, talked to historians, searched the newspapers and even visited all the cemeteries. He found nothing. At times, he says, he couldn't help thinking that Dellschau made everything up. Eventually, whether the Sonora club was a dream or real stopped mattering to Navarro. One day, he remembers being absorbed by a passage inscribed in one of the drawings: "Wonder Weaver, you will unriddle my writings." Navarro grew convinced that he and his brother, Rudy, "were weaving wonders." He says of Dellschau, "Maybe we had similar minds." To crack Dellschau's 40-symbol code, Navarro enlisted the help of his brother, Rudy, and a couple who spoke German. He says the effort took only one month, but he won't release the key or a literal translation. Navarro will talk only about the same phrase that enchanted de Menil: "DM=3DX." To Navarro, it stands for "NYMZA," an acronym for a secret society that controlled the Sonora club's doings. Based on Navarro's papers, some ufologists have speculated that NYMZA was controlled by - what else? - aliens; Navarro doesn't buy that theory. Navarro explains that he's saving his best stuff for his collaborator, Dennis Crenshaw, who's writing a book called The Secrets of Dellschau. But Steen, at the Menil, isn't convinced that Navarro really deciphered the symbols. Steen once asked Navarro to translate the code; Navarro would tell him the meaning of only a couple of sentences. Navarro is clearly torn between showing off and keeping secrets. He's compiled a voluminous scrapbook titled "Dellschau's Aeros." He proudly showed it to me. It's full of wild code translations and weird exegeses on the aeros and oddments that Dellschau just stuffed, unbound, in the notebooks: cartoons, a photocopy of Dellschau's marriage certificate, letters, maps, clippings and more clippings about all manner of harebrained inventions. There's even a picture of Otto, Bavaria's Mad Monarch. But Navarro won't take his hands off the scrapbook. It, too, contains secrets, truths and tidbits linking Dellschau's club with the airship mystery. And for the moment, Navarro wants to keep the secrets for himself. Slowly, though, other of Dellschau's secrets are revealing themselves. In early December, I asked Charles Stelzig - Leo's son - if his father had any of Dellschau's stuff. Charles turned up a boxful. He and I were the first to go through them since Leo Jr.'s stamp-collecting days. We found souvenir pictures of famous Germans; one shows Wilhelm, Kaiser of Deutschland. And we found letters. Some, postmarked "Germany," are from a woman named Mary Sprengel. Another one is from Bertha Dellschau, written from the sanatorium. It begins, "Dear Papa." The box also held two antique photo albums crumbling at the touch. Many of the photos show the logos of Berlin photographers. Are they from long-lost relatives writing to Charles, long after Prussia became part of united Germany? Another picture shows Mary Dellschau, the artist's daughter. And there are photos of young men, any one of whom could be Dellschau himself. We found more. A yellowed legal certificate in German script bears the signatures of Friederike Wilhelmine and Heinrich Adolphe Dellschau, Charles's parents. In the middle of the page, they've written "Carl August Albert." Dated June 5, 1830, the document appears to be the artist's birth certificate. Other discoveries offered keys to Dellschau's work. Two receipts, dated 1888 and 1889, showed Dellschau's payments to the New Orleans German Gazette. Until now, no one has known which German-language newspaper he used in his collages; surely this is it. Last, more clippings surfaced. All are about inventions and cut in perfect squares like Dellschau's "press blooms." The most revealing boasts of "The Secret of the Keeley Motor." The article describes a force oddly reminiscent of suppe, Dellschau's miracle airship fuel. The Menil Collection still holds the four notebooks de Menil bought and, in fact, showed them this fall, part of a show of the de Menils' collection of folk art. Most of the time, though, the books sit locked in a humidity-controlled room upstairs, individually tucked in flat boxes. Museum authorities plan someday to hire a scholarly biographer to study Dellschau. In the meantime, William Steen continues to unearth new pieces of information. He's now examining clues about the lives of Dellschau's daughters, Bertha and Mary. And in January, Steen plans a side trip to Sonora after retrieving some Menil-owned Picassos on loan in a San Francisco exhibit. He hopes to get a feel for the Gold Rush era and perhaps even to uncover traces of the club's members. Recently he had Dellschau's journals translated from German into English. Their 200 pages feature stories about members of the Sonora Aero Club, with very few illustrations. In these tales, Dellschau mentions a boarding house, complete with bar and dining room, where he and club buddies stayed. Something about the tales nags at Steen. "The more details I see about Dellschau, the more convinced I am that a great deal of it is highly possible," he says. "Even though it's fantastic, it's more than just fairy tales." As for Pete Navarro, after trying to unravel the artist's secrets for 25 years, he still has the dreamy-eyed look of someone possessed by a riddle. Over the years, he's sold all his Dellschau notebooks because he needed the cash. Four went to the San Antonio Museum Association in 1972 and are shared between the Witte and San Antonio Museum of Art. Two years ago, Navarro sold his remaining four to the Ricco/Maresca Art Gallery in Manhattan. Those notebooks hold the artist's late work, from 1919 to 1923. Gallery director Stephen Romano says he's sold more than ten pieces; Romano won't reveal the buyers' names but will say that a major law firm took three and that a stockbrocker, psychiatrist and film editor have each bought one. In just the last year, the selling price for a single Dellschau has jumped $3,000, from $12,000 to $15,000. Next year, the gallery plans to give the artist a one-man show.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:36:44 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:25:27 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Ledger >From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 >Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? >Somewhat surprising that there has not been more discussion here >of Prophet Yahweh aka Ramon Watkins apparent ability to summon >UFO's on demand. Seems like it should be a fairly big deal in >ufological circles when a man issues a claim that he can summon >ufo's at will and then does exactly that in front of a TV crew. >For those unfamiliar with this event, check out the video from >KTNV in Las Vegas taken on May 28, 2005. >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44503 >Maybe the story needs to "cure" for 20 years before it generates >any real interest here! >After viewing the video it would be nice if someone could >explain the apparent motion of the UFO and how such an event >could be faked by an accomplice with a balloon. Not saying it >couldn't, just curious as to how one would account for winds, >etc. Frankly, Watkins himself just doesn't seem bright enough to >do any sophisticated hoaxing. It doesn't play very well for me Erik. I'm on dial-up and the video just locks up on a dot in the sky which could be anything. I hear lots of dialogue during the evnt however. It's over a week later and I haven't heard anything about a big sighting in Las Vegas. I suspect that for many, like myself, this one is low in interest factor rather than frightening. It doesn't even give me a mild buzz. It will take many of these summonsings and UFO showups to make this guys claims anything more at coincidental at this stage.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:10:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:27:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:22:57 +0200 >Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:55:48 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:04 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:14 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Alien Visitation: A Global Quantum Event? <snip> >>First: I think you raise an interesting question. If indeed >>there is a spectrum of strange, so-called other-dimensional or >>"supernatural" phenomena associated with, but distinct from, an >>"obvious ET problem", then I think we need some explicit >>analysis of what does or does not belong in whivh category and >>how we, as somewhat ill-informed spectators of this >>phantasmagoria, are to tell them apart reliably. >I grant you that it is very difficult to perform such an analysis. >Another aspect of the problem is that certain ETs may be masters >of deception themselves. Their agenda might be, first to >begin to unveil their presence gradually; second to maintain >a certain level of doubt on their ET nature, by playing lots >of tricks. >So, you have two symetric possibilities: >- Entities who want us to believe they are ETs (Vallee-Keel > theories) >- ETs playing all sorts of tricks for the opposite reason. Hi Gildas Well yes, there's a fascinating angle to explore - maybe ETs deliberately try to make us believe they are really paranormal gremlins. I can see the counterintelligence and psy-war possibilities of such a gambit! >And that is not all - many aspects of ET interventions may be >of a nature that our conventional wisdom calls "paranormal >phenomena". For instance, abductors passing through roofs and >walls. >And perhaps they don't care about how we undertand that. >>Is it sufficient that a techy thing like an ICBM is involved >>for an invisible, trackless gremlin who fiddles with secret >>codes and combinations to be called an "obvious ET"? >In such cases, I would think that they definitely wanted their >presence to be known, at least by the military. The message >being in fact a warning - be careful with your bombs. We are >watching you! I don't think "Gremlins" would do that. Actually, they just might. If you read Celtic fairy lore (among other similar sources) a recurring theme is the warning to some human or group of humans to "mend their ways", to stop behaving selfishly or anti-socially, or stop damaging some piece of faery real estate - like their paths through the fields, their thornbushes, or old burial mounds where they supposedly lived. This warning, unheeded, sometimes led to beatings or poltergeist infestation or abduction and terrorising of witnesses. A more
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:12:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:29:24 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Shough >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:32:37 EDT >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >"Any technology distinguishable from magic is not advanced >enough" >I found this quote a while back but have not been able to find >an attribution. I would love to know who said that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Secrecy News -- 06/16/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:46:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:33:50 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/16/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 56 June 16, 2005 ** A GAGGLE OF CRS REPORTS ** COUNTERINTELLIGENCE REPORTING IN THE WORKPLACE A GAGGLE OF CRS REPORTS The Congressional Research Service, at the direction of the current congressional leadership, does not make its products directly available to the public. In an effort to counter this anachronistic policy, Secrecy News provides direct access to selected CRS reports such as the following: "State and Local Homeland Security: Unresolved Issues for the 109th Congress," June 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32941.pdf "Defense Procurement: Full Funding Policy -- Background, Issues, and Options for Congress," updated May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL31404.pdf "Military Base Closure: Socioeconomic Impacts," May 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22147.pdf "'Fast Track' Congressional Consideration of Recommendations of the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) Commission," May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22144.pdf "Unmanned Vehicles for U.S. Naval Forces: Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21294.pdf "Air Force Aerial Refueling Methods: Flying Boom versus Hose- and-Drogue," May 11, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32910.pdf "Navy Ship Acquisition: Options for Lower-Cost Ship Designs -- Issues for Congress," May 11, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32914.pdf "Cuba: U.S. Restrictions on Travel and Remittances," updated May 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31139.pdf "China's Exchange Rate Peg: Economic Issues and Options for U.S. Trade Policy," updated May 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32165.pdf "High Performance Computers and Export Control Policy: Issues for Congress," updated May 5, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL31175.pdf "International Food Aid: U.S. and Other Donor Contributions," updated May 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21279.pdf "Medal of Honor Recipients: 1979-2005," updated April 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30011.pdf "Palestinian Education and the Debate Over Textbooks," April 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32886.pdf "The Interagency Security Committee and Security Standards for Federal Buildings," April 22, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RS22121.pdf "Defense Outsourcing: The OMB Circular A-76 Policy," updated April 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL30392.pdf "The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act: An Overview of the Statutory Framework and Recent Judicial Decisions," updated April 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RL30465.pdf "Defense Budget: Long-Term Challenges for FY2006 and Beyond," April 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32877.pdf "Peacekeeping and Conflict Transitions: Background and Congressional Action on Civilian Capabilities," April 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32862.pdf "Network Centric Warfare: Background and Oversight Issues for Congress," March 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32411.pdf COUNTERINTELLIGENCE REPORTING IN THE WORKPLACE Government and contractor employees are reluctant to report suspicious behavior exhibited by their coworkers to security personnel except when they believe it has some plausible bearing on national security, a recent counterintelligence policy study found. Employees "said that they were very willing to report serious behaviors that clearly related to counterintelligence or security, but much less willing to report on suitability types of behaviors, such as excessive drinking and personal problems, because they were not able to see the direct link between the human problem and national security." In response to this finding, the Department of Defense Personnel Security Research Center (PERSEREC) developed an explicit list of actions that could pose a threat to national security in order to encourage coworkers to report such behavior, as described in the new study. Reportable behavior includes such things as displays of unexplained affluence, concealment of foreign travel, extensive use of copy or fax machines beyond what is required for work, attempts to place other personnel under obligation through favors or gifts, and more. See "Reporting of Counterintelligence and Security Indicators by Supervisors and Coworkers," PERSEREC, May 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/cireporting.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:42:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:36:32 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - White >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:51:22 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >The issue, perhaps, is the question of whether or not you're >going to view this as a "scientific" pursuit, or "spiritual" >one. Once one enters the spiritual realm, the primary foundation >for belief becomes faith, and (IMO) that is a disaster for the >scientific pursuit. Including things "spiritual", meaning things associated with religious faith may be a disaster for today's scientific pursuit, (at least at the primitive state of the Earthly scientific method.) However, things 'paranormal', and the related concept, things 'multi-dimensional' _should_ be part of scientific pursuit but aren't, not because they aren't worthy of scientific pursuit but because scientific hierarchy has arbitrarily decided to ignore them. For example, Robert O. Becker, MD, in his book, The Body Electric, pages 264-265: "Following the curious dogma that what we don't understand can't exist, mainstream science has dismissed psychic phenomena as delusions or hoaxes, simply because they're rarer than sleep, dreams, memory, growth, pain or consciousness ..." And from page 61: "The Russians were willing to follow hunches; their researchers got government money to try the most outlandish experiments, ones that our science just _knew_ couldn't work. Furthermore, Soviet journals published them - even if they _did_ work." Yes, the word is _did_, not _didn't_, work. I suggest that _massive_ amounts of scientific discoveries are being held back by this policy of ridicule. It is very likely that this policy of ridicule is also holding back major information related to UFOs as well. And if distinguished private UFO investigators adopt the ridicule policy either intentionally or unconsciously, ufology
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:46:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:38:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:59:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:41:29 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:16:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? <snip> >Eleanor, James, >I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my understanding >is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to a Faraday >Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where it's >claimed people have been abducted from vehicles? A quick test of an enclosure to test its 'faraday-cage-ness' is to see if a cell phone works inside it. Car windows disqualify
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:01:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:40:02 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - White >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:32:37 EDT >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >UFOs represent to them the terrifying _possibility_, however >remote, of scientific proof of the supernatural. "However remote..."? All it would take for mainstream scientists to start studying and publishing their findings, and you'd have your proof. Remember, unless _mainstream_ scientists
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:26:17 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:45:02 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Hatch >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:48 +1000 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:37:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? ><snip> >But, but, but... UFOs and religion don't mix you say? >Or, is it that it challenges us to the point of confusion, where >lines become so blurred we get lost in our narrow human >perspective? >What about accounts in the Christian bible? >There seems to be considerable evidence that suggests many >people had ET contact. >They not only had contact but described the craft and their >visitors in detail. It's also clear, at least to me, that these >visitors were intent in passing on to man, through certain >individuals, moral and practical advice for an improved >development of human society. The contactees of the 50s and 60s >seemed to be a repeated attempt at this. <snip> Hello Sheryl: Please don't get me started on 'contactees'! Maybe I should qualify my original statement about religion and ufology not mixing. Taken out of my (intended and sadly unstated) context, yes it sounds like a rash generalization. If somebody is studying folklore, all sorts of parallels could be drawn between religion and today's ufology. That's one big reason I cannot call ufology a science, not yet. If instead, one is looking for fact based patterns in the sightings, some indication of motives and means, anything resembling logical evidence, _that_ is when I would exclude religion, demonology, contactees and similarly vaporous matters. Let me make a little comparison, a parable if you prefer: Religion and Corporate Accounting. Nobody would look to scriptures for mathematics and methodology. One passage sets the value of pi (3.14159..) to exactly three by inference! Faith based corporate accounting? I'm sure some demons in the boardroom would like to play with that! So how about wholesale theft? NOW we have some crossover. Scriptures are full of that. See the difference? The math is something akin to a science. The practices are all about human nature, and scripture is a wonderful early reference for every human failing, from the cardinal sins to just seeing what we want to see. I hope this clarifies things a little.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 The Making Of The Oliver's Castle Video From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:27:02 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:48:24 -0400 Subject: The Making Of The Oliver's Castle Video I found this interesting video-clip from the documentary by National Geographic presenting how the Oliver Castle video was made, featuring John Whaley a.k.a. John Wabe himself demonstrating how they made the fake: http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=BallsOfLight The clip may pause a couple of times for some seconds at the begunning, but just let it run and the streaming will continue.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Sex And Rockets: The Occult World Of Jack Parsons From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:04:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:04:15 -0400 Subject: Sex And Rockets: The Occult World Of Jack Parsons Lead via: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:46:50 -0700 --- "Someone at my office has just told me that John Carter's book on Jack Parsons is now out in paperback and is reasonably cheap at Amazon: Sex and Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons [by] John Carter Stew" ----- Source: Amazon.co.uk http://tinyurl.com/d9k2o January 20, 2000 The first in-depth look at the life of John W. Parsons, January 20, 2000 Reviewer: A reader from London The first in-depth look at the life of John Whiteside Parsons - pioneering rocket scientist, and ardent disciple of the notorious magus, Aleister Crowley - is finally available courtesy of Feral House in Sex and Rockets by John Carter. The release of this book, in my opinion, is an event long overdue, as I see in Parsons one of the most fascinating and important figures of the late 20th century; a man of great promise, who somehow fell short of his staggering potential. What makes this book all the more fascinating is the shift in focus that takes place throughout, as the author demarcates between "John Parsons" the brilliant rocket engineer, and "Jack Parsons" the failed magician, who in his attempt to cross the Abyss, fell into it instead, fulfilling a fiery destiny, which Parsons himself prophesied. Parsons, in many ways, possessed two separate selves - rocket scientist and magician - and this literary device is used throughout Sex and Rockets to illustrate the many contradictions that personified the life of a truly gifted, though equally flawed human being. For those not in the know, Jack Parsons was a founding member of Jet Propulsion Laboratories (JPL) back in the late 30's, and one time head of the California branch of the magical order the Agape Lodge of the Ordo Templi Orientalis (O.T.O.)... Going back to the original documents, Carter outlines Parsons' numerous technical achievements, and his key role in the pre- NASA development of space technology. This, in itself, makes Sex and Rockets an invaluable resource for those interested in a broader historical perspective of John Whiteside Parsons. Starting in late 30's, Parsons was an early pioneer in Rocket Engineering, a member of a group funded by the Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratory, California Institute of Technology (GALCIT), which later evolved into JPL. This group's contribution to the war effort - as Carter points out - cannot be overlooked; nor can their early efforts in rocket engineering, which provided much of the impetus for later NASA projects in the late 50's and 60's, and the eventual landing of men on the moon. Although Parsons has been memorialized by his peers with a statue at JPL - as well as the singular distinction of having a crater on the moon named after him (on the dark side, no less) - he still remains an obscure figure in the halls of academia. (In a recent discussion with an aeronautical engineer, I mentioned the name 'Jack Parsons', and he had no clue as to whom I was referring!) In Sex and Rockets, Carter brings a measure of much needed clarity to the life and times of the enigmatic Parsons; an enigma that has been compounded over the years by varying degrees of misinformation and exaggeration as to just who Parsons was, and exactly what he was trying to accomplish with the Babalon Working rituals, performed in part with L.Ron Hubbard, the future founder of Scientology. The end result of the Babalon Working was to birth an elemental being; a 'Moonchild' that - as Crowley stated in his Book of the Law - would be "mightier than all the kings of the Earth." According to Thelemic legend, in 1918 Aleister Crowley came into contact with a interdimensional entity named Lam, who by the way is a dead ringer for the popular conception of the 'alien grey ' depicted on the cover of Whitley Strieber's Communion. From this purported encounter, some have inferred that the industrious Mr. Crowley intentionally opened a portal of entry - through the practice of a magick ritual, The Amalantrah Working - which allowed the likes of Lam and other 'alien greys' a passageway onto the Earth plane. Furthermore, this portal may have been further enlarged by Parsons and Hubbard in 1946 with the commencement of the Babalon Working, thus facilitating a monumental paradigm shift in human consciousness. In Sex and Rockets, Carter quotes Crowley successor Kenneth Grant, who wrote, "The [Babalon] Working began...just prior to the wave of unexplained aerial phenomena now recalled as the 'Great Flying Saucer Flap'. Parsons opened a door and something flew in." Carter also suggests it might have been the atomic bomb that opened this door between dimensions. He then further illustrates the importance of the year 1947, which ended the first stage of the Babalon Working, as Parsons and Hubbard parted ways amidst a cloud of turmoil. 1947 was the year that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. In that very same year, Israel became a nation state, the transistor was invented and the sound barrier broken. Last, but certainly not least, the Modern Age of UFO's flew into view with the Kenneth Arnold sightings, followed not long after by the alleged saucer crash in Roswell, New Mexico. 1947 was also the year the Great Beast, Aleister Crowley died. As history instructs, Parson's stormy life ended with a monumental bang when - on June 17, 1952 - he accidentally blew himself to smithereens while working with powerful explosives. Some suggest that the explosion in question was no accident at all, and that foul play was involved. This is just one of the theories that Carter examines in Sex and Rockets, including the more bizarre scenario proffered by Michael Anthony Hoffman II, who contends that Parsons was attempting to conjure into existence an elemental being by way of an 'homunculus' experiment - an experiment that apparently backfired. While I find this theory - attributed to Parson's fiery demise - a bit difficult to swallow,... it nevertheless makes for some fascinating fodder. Also of note is the wonderful introduction to Sex and Rockets by Robert Anton Wilson, no novice himself to the occult world of Jack Parsons. For years Wilson has kicked around the idea of writing the definitive biography of Aleister Crowley, as all previous endeavours in this area - in Wilson's estimation - have fallen far short in arriving at an accurate picture of Crowley, separating the real man from his monstrous myth. To the contrary, Sex and Rockets is probably just the sort of biography that Wilson has envisioned for Crowley; a work stripped of myths and misconceptions, bolstered by hard research and detailed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Australian Centre for UFO Studies News - June 2005 From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:05:10 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:10:28 -0400 Subject: Australian Centre for UFO Studies News - June 2005
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Consequents To Clarke's [was: What Is Happening To From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:57:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:30:07 -0400 Subject: Consequents To Clarke's [was: What Is Happening To >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:04:16 +0100 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>"Any technology distinguishable from magic is not advanced >>enough" >>I found this quote a while back but have not been able to find >>an attribution. I would love to know who said that. >Hi Bob, that's Arthur C Clarke's quote: >"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from >magic." >Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles Of The Future, 1961 (Clarke's third >law) Hi Ray, Don't you just love the Internet....!!! I forwarded that quote directly to Bob yesterday, but he said that he was familiar with Clarke's 3rd Law, and that wasn't what he was thinking about. But we may have several other names to suggest..... I narrowed my search and found: Other writers have since proposed corollaries (not all of them actually corollaries, technically speaking) to Clarke's laws: --- Isaac Asimov's Corollary to Clarke's First Law: When, however, the lay public rallies round an idea that is denounced by distinguished but elderly scientists and supports that idea with great fervor and emotion - the distinguished but elderly scientists are then, after all, probably right. --Asimov's Corollary, F&SF, Feb. 1977 Gregory Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. --Foundation's Fear, 1997 Alternative version: Benford's Modified Clarke Law: Any technology that does not appear magical is insufficiently advanced. http://www.edge.org/q2004/index.html#benford Raymond's Second Law: Any sufficiently advanced system of magic would be indistinguishable from a technology. http://www.edge.org/q2004/index.html#raymond Sterling's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced garbage is indistinguishable from magic. http://www.edge.org/q2004/page7.html#sterling Langford's application of Clarke's Third Law to science fiction: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device. --A Gadget Too Far, New Worlds 2, 1992 Terry Pratchett refers to the law in his Discworld books by having wizard Ponder Stibbons state that "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." Ben Zealley's transhumanist corollary to Clarke's Third Law: If you cannot distinguish my technology from magic, you are insufficiently advanced. Rosenbaum's Corollary (formed in response to Harry Potter); "Any magic, sufficiently debased, is indistinguishable from technology." Richard Factor's corollary to Clarke's Third Law; "Any sufficiently advanced technology [of communication] is indistinguishable from noise." --- Obviously, a lot of people took note of Clarke's Law and added
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Reality Problem [was What Is Happening To UFO From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:45:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:33:01 -0400 Subject: Reality Problem [was What Is Happening To UFO Hello List, This discussion inevitably hit the reality problem. Can we rely on science, eternal absolute mathematical physics, to reassure us? No, as Lee Smolin wrote: "The theorems of mathematics are outside of time because they are not about the real. On the contrary, anything that exists must exist inside of time" Although his use of the word "exists" might be questioned right now. Even our own 'existence' is only the conscious perceptions of a pattern of electrons and photons temporarily resident in a lump of protonic porridge called a brain. So we're trapped in time, lost to absolute science - what can we see or know? Not much. It seems major constituents of the Universe are vacuum (or zero-point) energy and 'dark matter' - and while they may be more 'vital', they're invisible to us. In fact, the energy patterns which form other beings' 'consciousness' might be stronger than electrons and photons, perhaps able to "exist" free of matter, or even time. In which case we're potentially in a bad way - cut-off from science, and blind to most energy and matter. Maybe, as Profs. Jack Cohen & Ian Stewart wrote - "We simply would not know they were here unless they wanted us to" Cheers Ray D "Both the genuinely pious and the genuinely schizophrenic can claim to speak the thoughts of the divine" - Lee Smolin - 'The Life of the Cosmos'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:30:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:00:09 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Reynolds >From: Greg Boone <MEvolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? <snip> >>What is all this talk about demons and tulpas? >So let's meld religious perception with solid instrumental >documentation and see what we can glean. >Ufology and religion scare people. Only evil ID-Operating people >who are afraid that some truth or some new means of finding the >truth of some hidden deed may come forth. >If tomorrow, some genius were to invent an infallable truth/lie >detecting technology our world would change instantly. >I for one would like to hear from the scientists on board here >and their philosophies about science. Would be a great platform >for those new folks to get from a scientist what is valuable in >the pursuit of science. >Experience is the most valuable commodity and I'm sure there's a >ton of professional experience round these parts. Greg: I think we on the List here might defer to Jerry Clark who is a UFO expert for sure and scholarly about religion, especially early Christianity. There is a line between science amd things spiritual surely: science extablishes its truths by theories, esperimentation to verify those theories, and conclusions which can be tested by others; whereas things religious are based in faith - there is no experimentation that can be tested by others, and there are certainly no conclusions that can be gleaned which will satisfy or convince people, even believers, that God exists, or that Jesus/Christ truly resurrected, or that Joseph Smith got the book of Mormom from the angel Moroni. As Jerry Clark has it, science and ufology especially, will only be flummoxed by the insertion of religious ideals and faith- based beliefs. He's right, of course. The history of science is pedicated on observations by those who used their senses and logic to determine the reality of the physical world. Theologians and religious types work with things so abstract that there is no way, in the current scheme of things, to concretize what is still a matter of faith. If God showed up on a radar screen or in the sky and was able to be photographed, then we might have something. As it is, we only
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 17 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:57:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:46:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:59:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? <snip> >>Eleanor, James, >>I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my >>understanding is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to >>a Faraday Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where >>it's claimed people have been abducted from vehicles? >A quick test of an enclosure to test its 'faraday-cage-ness' is >to see if a cell phone works inside it. Car windows disqualify >cars as Faraday cages. A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see a grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 An Argentine Contactee's Story From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:03:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:52:26 -0400 Subject: An Argentine Contactee's Story INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology June 17, 2005 A CONTACTEE'S STORY By Raul Oscar Chaves (c) 2005 CIUFOS- La Pampa (Argentina) In 1998, Gregorio T.R., 55, married, a resident of Santa Rosa, La Pampa and a watchman by profession, began to experience recurrent "contact" experiences with a strange entity. These have continued to take place through January 2005. While performing his duties as a watchman at a computer school in Santa Rosa one evening, he went to the restroom and caught a glimpse of a strange creature moving behind him as he looked into a mirror. The entity was silver-colored and stood some 7 feet tall. This event took place on December 6, 1998. It should be noted that on two occasions the computers in the teaching facility were found to have lost their programming the next day, without the causes ever being established. On December 28, 1998, a similar experience took place in the same city but at a service station, where the witness also performed security duties. On this occasion, the entity was seen standing upright in a hallway, one hand against the electric circuit breaker panel. The entity, startled by the onlooker, spun around clumsily and looked at the witness, who described its gaze as "piercing" and the eyes having a green color. The witness reported feeling an intense burning sensation in its eyes for 30 days. In this instance a mental or telepathic "dialogue" ensued in which the witness was told, "not to fear, that while he was not the chosen one, they would nonetheless be in contact with him." The witness remained ecstatic, mechanically and involuntarily reaching his hand to his chest and ascertaining that his cardiac rhythm was normal. At no time did he feel excitement or fear. On January 23, 1999, while on duty at a gas plant in Santa Rosa, Gregorio detected the presence of these entities without being able to detect them physically. On this occasion he was performing his customary rounds and the time was nearly 0200 hours. On this occasion, the witness experienced a "missing time" event with an estimated duration of 3 hours. Upon recovering, he detected moisture on his trousers, which proved to be seminal fluid; his genitals were affected, as evidenced by a state of continuous, persistent and painful erection, showing signs of apparent inflammation. He returned home in a state of crisis and told his wife and relative that he had "been taken by aliens" before breaking down into tears. This state of shock lasted some 15 days during which the erection persisted, accompanied by intense pain. The witness achieved some degree of relief by taking extensive sitting baths. Gregorio believes that semen was extracted from him, although he ignores the time and the method used. In November 2001, while working at the computer school and finding himself in a classroom with work desks, wearing short pants and a t-shirt, Gregorio fell into a dreamlike state: he thought that the classroom was completely empty while he felt his body temperature rising, causing him to break into abundant sweat. This circumstance prompted him to undress and wring out his clothes, leaving a puddle of water on the floor after doing so. Subsequently, he headed for the yard, where he recovered from his fugue state, ascertaining that his clothes were dry. Faced with this, he headed back to the classroom in order to see if his experience had been a dream or not: he found the puddle described earlier. In December 2002 he performed security duties at the service station and suddenly became aware of the Entity's presence. This prompted him to go sit on a box in order to avoid the contact experience. He suffered an estimated 3-hour time loss at this point, and was unable to recall what happened. On January 1, 2003, while on security duty in Santa Rosa and in the company of his wife, since it was New Year's Day, he saw the same Entity in the vicinity but no contact took place. He felt the urge to inform his wife of the experience but chose not to, unable to explain the cause of his refusal. The last contact event occurred at 15:00 hours on January 21, 2005. On this occasion, the witness was acting as an employee/driver for a distribution company in La Pampa. He was returning from [the town of] General Acha, located 115 km south of Santa Rosa, heading for the "Padre Buodo" Rest Area and Shelter on Provincial Route 152 and from there to Santa Rosa along National Route 35. At some 110 km from Acha he began to feel restless and nervous, and decided to open the passenger side window of his vehicle - a Ford 100 pick-up truck - only to discover that the strange entity from his previous contact experiences was sitting beside him. Gregorio T.R. recalls that a powerful storm was taking place at the time, with strong winds and significant loss of visibility. The sky turned dark and the other vehicles driving along the road were seeking shelter from the meteorological phenomenon. Subsequently, the witness reacted and regained awareness, pulling over his vehicle and getting off. He discovered that he was on Route 35 and very close to Ataliva Roca, a town some 40 km distant from Santa Rosa. The estimated time required to cover the aforementioned distance he calculates in some 20 minutes, a fact that disconcerted him, since his habitual driving speed is some 60 kmh. He also verified that he had never made a delivery at the "Padre Buodo" Rest Area, nor could he remember how he reached Ataliva Roca, being unable to remember any details of what happened during that leg of the trip. It should be noted that during the "telepathic dialogues" he is told not to share his experiences with anyone at all, nor make them public, and that the contact events would repeat whenever they were necessary or required. Also noteworthy is that the materialization of the Entity occurred first through the mirror, where the body's details first began to appear and acquire shape, like a hologram, with the facial features and the body. He subsequently saw that it had acquired the physiognomy of a human being. His family discusses these experiences seldom, depending on the listener, stating that given the nature of his job, the witness feels no fear whatsoever and at all times feels protected and looked after. Gregorio T.R. also states feeling extremely active and vibrant, especially in sexual matters. He has discovered his ability to "assimilate electricity" (sic), a capacity hitherto unknown and whose causes he ignores. . Faced with this new experience, he insists on not wanting to offer greater explanations or details, considering that restating circumstances as the ones indicated above lead him to believe that he is faced with a phenomenon that is beyond his control, feeling calm and resigned about it. He adds that [the entity] could be a robot or a humanoid, since while its appearance is human, its attitude and gestures are "mechanical" and somewhat clumsy, especially when walking. The witness comes from as state school background and while he offers no greater details, he is extremely coherent in his statements. In this researcher's opinion, the experiences
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Holistic Physics And Ufology From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:57:17 -0400 Subject: Holistic Physics And Ufology List, Here's a very good essay about the nature of consciousness and awareness that I suspect has some bearing on the UFO question. Here's a representative quote: "Many primitive peoples organized their lives around a doctrine we call "animism", the belief that every object possesses sentient "insides" like our own. The quantum consciousness assumption, which amounts to a kind of "quantum animism" likewise asserts that consciousness is an integral part of the physical world, not an emergent property of special biological or computational systems. Since everything in the world is on some level a quantum system, this assumption requires that everything be conscious on that level. If the world is truly quantum animated, then there is an immense amount of invisible inner experience going on all around us that is presently inaccessible to humans, because our own inner lives are imprisoned inside a small quantum system, isolated deep in the meat of an animal brain. We may not need to travel into outer space to inhabit entirely new worlds. New experiential worlds of inconceivable richness and variety may already be present "at our fingertips"-worlds made up of strangely intelligent minds that silently surround and interpenetrate our own modes of awareness." To read the entire essay, see: http://www.southerncrossreview.org/16/herbert.essay.htm Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:04:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:08:05 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Kaeser >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:42:00 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >For example, Robert O. Becker, MD, in his book, The Body >Electric, pages 264-265: >"Following the curious dogma that what we don't understand can't >exist, mainstream science has dismissed psychic phenomena as >delusions or hoaxes, simply because they're rarer than sleep, >dreams, memory, growth, pain or consciousness ..." >And from page 61: >"The Russians were willing to follow hunches; their researchers >got government money to try the most outlandish experiments, >ones that our science just _knew_ couldn't work. Furthermore, >Soviet journals published them - even if they _did_ work." >Yes, the word is _did_, not _didn't_, work. >I suggest that _massive_ amounts of scientific discoveries are >being held back by this policy of ridicule. It is very likely >that this policy of ridicule is also holding back major >information related to UFOs as well. >And if distinguished private UFO investigators adopt the >ridicule policy either intentionally or unconsciously, ufology >suffers. Hi Eleanor, I would be the first to acknowledge that science operates with blinders on, and any discovery or results that fail to fit the normal pattern could the thrown out as errors or mistakes. Like politics, the world of science can be very dogmatic and bureaucratic with gate-keepers to maintain the proper focus and prevent the fringe elements from making too much noise. And I'm not even thinking of the study of UFOs at this point..... The problem of getting mainstream science to examine "paranormal" events is indeed an issue, and one that the major UFO groups have discussed at length, including a large meeting of the minds in Washington DC several years ago (with funding
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:43:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:11:30 -0400 Subject: Re: The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity - Shell >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:46:40 -0400 >Subject: The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity >Source: Barista - Heartstarters For The Hungry Mind >http://dox.media2.org/barista/archives/002184.html#more >June 16, 2005 >The Sonora Flying Club And Antigravity <snip> Wonderful stuff!! I've always thought that Jules Verne must have based his 1905 novel Master of the World on the airship
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 UK FOIA Requests From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:51:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:14:03 -0400 Subject: UK FOIA Requests Hello List, I have just had the misfortune of ploughing through the questions and answers at the MoD web site at the following two links: http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/rrjun05/rrjun05ufo.htm http://www.mod.uk/publications/foi/rr/rrjun05/rrjun05ufo2.htm In the course of reading the questions, I was struck by how little most of the people writing the questions knew about the limits of their rights under the FoIA and the obligations of the MoD. Many of the questions were along the lines of "tell me everything that you know about the aliens". Naturally these drew polite but uninformative (in terms of ufology) replies. This is in itself nothing new, the National Archives are riddled with similar queries, which drew almost identical responses 30 or 40 years ago. I also came across missives written by people who were clearly deluded - for example, one individual was receiving messages from aliens via their TV set which consisted of registration numbers, models, and colours of cars which they felt obliged to keep sending to the MoD! Another individual had a 'knack' of recognising aliens within our society (because aliens have prominent eye-ridges) and they offered their services as an 'alien detector' to the MoD. No doubt the MoD still receive similar material. If anyone is thinking about making requests under the FoIA to the MoD, here are a few pointers: 1) The MoD are not obliged to respond to requests that will cost more than =A3600 to satisfy. This equates roughly to checking a year or two's records and providing copies of specific documents from within that timeframe relevant to a specific request. 2) Any records more than 25 years old are most likely under the control of The National Archives, not the MoD. 3) Probably in the order of 5-10 years worth of records are held in the department's office. Older documents (which have not been sent to TNA) will be under the control of the Departmental Records Officer. The request will still need to go to the FoIA contact, but records 5-25 years old will most likely take longer to process. 4) Don't bother asking for MoD records on Area 51 or Roswell, or indeed (with a few exceptions, usually involving UK military personnel) relating to events anywhere outside the UK. Foreign incidents are outside the scope of the MoD, and it is doubtful if they take any interest in them except in extraordinary circumstances. The Foreign and Commonwealth office may have taken an interest in specific foreign UFO events, and might be worth contacting. 5) Make any requests as specific as possible, and confined to a relatively narrow (eg 2 years or less) date-range. It is no good specifically asking for records of all CE3 cases received by the MoD without specifying a sensible date range - someone would have to spend their time checking 25 years worth of records, which would certainly breach the =A3600 barrier. If the MoD are getting bogged down responding to questions which they are unable or not obliged to respond to adequately, replies to valid questions will be delayed as a consequence.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:16:33 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Tonnies >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >>I think there are enough reports of apparently structured >>unidentified objects impinging on the consciousness of witnesses >>in ways we might term "spiritual" that refusing to pursue this >>aspect is sheer timidity. >I would like to believe that all you're saying is that the >psychological impact of sightings on witnesses is worth >studying. Unfortunately, since you didn't use the word >"psychological," which would have raised no eyebrows, but the >far more loaded one "spiritual," I am afraid that my hope is >destined to be dashed. Perhaps not; I didn't use the term imply anything "supernatural". Maybe "psychological" _would_ have been a better term, but "spiritual" is more specific in that it denotes a certain spectrum of human experience (empirically validated or not). I understand your reservations regarding the "S" word. At the same time, it's clear to me that there's a psycho-spiritual dynamic at work that begs attention, whether it's instigated by ETs or not. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:00:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:18:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Shell >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:57:03 -0400 >Subject: Consequents To Clarke's [was: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates?] <snip> >Gregory Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any >technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently >advanced. --Foundation's Fear, 1997 Thanks for taking the effort to look, Steve. I believe this one is the one I was thinking of, and did not quote quite accurately.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:02:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:19:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Dickenson >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:57:03 -0400 >Subject: Consequents To Clarke's [was: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates?] >Don't you just love the Internet....!!! <snip> >I narrowed my search and found: >Other writers have since proposed corollaries (not all of them >actually corollaries, technically speaking) to Clarke's laws: <snip> Great Steve, Think I'll save that list, bound to come in handy sometime.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:12:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:21:52 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:01:13 -0400 >Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? >>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:14:53 -0400 >>Subject: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? <snip> >>The talking heads at the station yuk it up and joke around about >>the story but the video speaks for itself. How the heck did he >>do it? >Some say it was a stunt, using as-yet-classified holographic >projection. 1) To accept this as a possibility someone would have to prove or demonstrate that a hologram could be created in the daylight sky. Holographic reconstruction generally requires a power laser beam or (for thick holograms) a small source of white light and the image created is the color of the laser or rainbow colored. 2) Furthermore, the hologram appears "behind" the holographic medium, such as a piece of film, that has stored the image. Thus one looks at the hologram (essentially a special type of photograph) while it is illuminated by a laser or small white light source. I doubt that Yahway managed to place a huge piece of film
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 UFO Video Thought Hoax From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:33:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:33:17 -0400 Subject: UFO Video Thought Hoax Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html Friday, June 17, 2005 UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax Video Report here: http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 By Scott Davis 3TV Producer UFO hoax It's the amazing, new UFO video that captured attention worldwide and 3TV is the only broadcast medium in the world to have the photographer, Brian Bessent, in the studio. But is the video real? That's what we set out to discover. "This was northwest toward the White Tank Mountains," Bessent said. "I seen the light come on. I turned on my video camera and started taping." That may be one of the few pieces of his story to withstand scrutiny. Bessent claims he saw the first set of lights in the Valley's sky on June 5, 2005, during a late-night trip to Wal-Mart in southwest Phoenix. He says more lights appeared in formation and then faded away. He stopped the car, got out the camera and tripod and waited. Five minutes later, the lights were back. It is this 51 seconds of videotape that has become one of the most controversial "sightings" in recent history. 3TV soon learned that Bessent is a graphic artist and amateur filmmaker from Texas, visiting Arizona to help produce a DVD about UFOs. How fortuitous that he should be the only person to get this new sighting on tape. Bessent superimposed the date and Web site on his video, and uploaded it to www.ufotheatre.com. This Web site features dozens of UFO videos for sale or download, plus multiple still-frames from these videos to pique the viewer's interest. Bessent admits to creating banners and graphics for the Web site. What he did not tell us is that he is a registered user of Flash animation by Macromedia. During our initial interview, he insisted this new video is authentic. "No, this is mine," he said. "It has nothing to do with anything like that. I think I was pretty lucky and I always thought if I kept my camera long enough, I'd come across something." We pressed for more, and Bessent finally agreed to submit his original video and camera for testing at Village Labs in north Phoenix. Owner Jim Dilettoso has more than 25 years' experience dissecting unexplained videos and photographs. Prior to Bessent's arrival, Dilettoso told us there are two halves to such analyses. "There's the personality side, the credibility side. Then there is the data side, where without opinion, we objectively extract data and compare that to our existing science database and draw conclusions." Dilettoso and co-investigator Ken Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film began to see problems on both sides. And so did experts in California, Mexico and Brazil, who undertook their own, independent analyses of the Internet clip and of Bessent himself. Specifically, another video Bessent once claimed to be a fleet of UFOs later was discredited as simply a flock of birds. In Mexico, investigator Santiago Yturria found another web page from ufotheatre.com, which shows still images from the new video. This page, located in a sort of "memory file" at google.com, is dated May 28. Remember, Bessent claimed he shot the new video on June 5. There is some disagreement over this Web page and its origin. Bessent has stated that Yturria misinterprets Google's method of saving or "caching" old files. But as we awaited Bessent's arrival at Village Labs, Dilettoso and Liljegren turned their attention to the video clip Bessent provided us the previous week. Still not the original, but much closer. Running the video through a vectorscope and waveform monitor reveals unusual characteristics in a number of technical indicators. The black level, white level, "pedestal", "back porch" and "blanking pulse" are markers that can read quality of a video as well as help determine whether a clip has been altered from the original. Liljegren finds inconsistent black levels throughout the video. "When that happens, it raises more questions. I wish I could have the original tape front to back." It was now five minutes past our appointment time. We called Brain Bessent�s hotel room to make sure he was still on his way. No answer. Dilettoso then began looking at the images on the video itself. "First of all, if it's in auto focus [as Bessent told us several times], why is there no continual adjustment that's going on even when the camera is moving?" Then there's the noise. Grainy video in most, but not all of the picture. Dilettoso increases the contrast on the tape and a couple of things become apparent. "Out here where these little bushes and things are, it's very grainy. It's everywhere in the entire picture except one place." He points at the area where the light pattern is. "Right there." Dilettoso finds that the area of the sky where the lights appear is much more uniformly black than the rest of the image. "The center object is very different from the outer objects," he says. "I've never had the opportunity to hold a camera in my hands where we could get a distinct white ball here, particularly one that would fly through and land there, where the outer objects aren't going to bloom and bleed over into the others." Dilettoso gives us one final video indicator of a hoax: the date and Web site characters Bessent added to the tape. The color and shadowing are remarkably similar to several of the mystery lights. And still, no sign of Bessent. We pack up our gear and head back to our studio, disappointed that he failed to show up. Turns out, however, that he did send an e-mail, which reads in part, "I think I have spent too much time on the UFO thing and get [sic] behind on my real life work. So I need to address some important issues before I have time to blow on UFOs." Bessent apparently left for California, without telling his Arizona partner his plans or whereabouts. So now, in addition to our very first question: "is the video real," we have a new one: why would a man with an authentic UFO sighting on tape back out of a detailed analysis that could validate the experience? Only one answer comes to mind. We have not heard from Bessent since that email. We must assume he still stands by his story. In our initial interview, he denied any involvement in a hoax. "The objects were there and people can say what they want, I just shot the footage that I seen, and that's what I was there to do when I seen it. I just got my video camera out and decided I was going to try to get the objects on tape. I�ve heard lots of UFO stories. I guess I got one now for myself." With special thank-yous to Jim Dilettoso, Ken Liljegren,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:13:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:41:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - White >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? <snip> >A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see a >grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >insulators. Not really. Electronic equipment makes use of all sizes and shapes of faraday cages to shield and isolate different stages of electronic equipment from interfering with each other, radiating, or picking up environmental electromagnetic signals not intended. There are hundreds of faraday cages used this way in automobiles and aircraft, all of which work just fine not Earthed. Grounding will bleed off heavy electrostatic phenomena, like St. Elmo's fire, or lightning, but for conventional electromagnetic
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:53:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:47:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Hatch >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:46:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>Eleanor, James, >>>I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my >>>understanding is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to >>>a Faraday Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where >>>it's claimed people have been abducted from vehicles? >>A quick test of an enclosure to test its 'faraday-cage-ness' >>is to see if a cell phone works inside it. Car windows >>disqualify cars as Faraday cages. >A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see a >grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >insulators. Hi Don: Right you are, and I'll add that a F.C. needs complete coverage too. One study of RF fields containment opines that if a F.C. (cable shielding in this case) is water-tight, its probably RF tight as well. Car windows are probably invisible to radio waves, passing thru them like light does. If so, the windshield alone could give plenty of exposure to people sitting up front. Maybe those tin- foil hats should have a grounding wire attached to the metal
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Titan Strange Square Structures? From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:57:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: Titan Strange Square Structures? ESA Cassini/Hygens descent panorama shows strange square structures.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:07:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Terry Groff >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>I am not promoting this video. I don't know if it is real or >>>fake. I'll leave that up to the experts. But I DO know how >>>Google caching works and I do know what "mirror" web pages are >>>and none of your evidence is valid. Once even one word in the >>>HTML code is changed (which is what the French 'researcher' did >>>when he changed the HTML code to the file names of the images) >>>it renders the page invalid. Google does not cache images it >>>only caches filenames. Why can't you understand that? All that >>>French page indicates is that those images were on the >>>ufotheatre.com server on June 12th. It does not prove otherwise. Terry and Santiago This is so strange... it seems increasingly clear that we have a case of evidence being fabricated to discredit a video which was itself a fabrication. I have seen some analysis today and done some on my own concerning this video. The video has some serious problems. These lights are too static for a video that has camera motion and zooming.... I could be wrong. I have seen analysis done by two others and I tend to agree with them concerning the problems with this video. You would expect to find either the video or the debunking evidence to be fabricated. I did not expect both to be bogus. It seems we have skeptics fabricating evidence to debunk a hoaxer's fabricated
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:50:45 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:55:54 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:30:13 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Greg Boone <MEvolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>>What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? <snip> >If God showed up on a radar screen or in the sky and was able to >be photographed, then we might have something. ... Billy Graham thinks UFOs might be manifestations of angels. If so, and that's a very big "if", then "God" _is_ showing up on radar screens, being photographed, leaving EM effects and landing traces, etc. Demons are just the flip side of angels, both are entities in the "spiritual" dimension according to theological research going back centuries. Angels are messengers of God or direct manifestations of God according to these studies. This "remote possibility," as I called it in a previous posting, is what I think drives the primal fears of the CSICOP crowd, their intense emotional responses, their animosity, to the UFO phenomenon and to those who try to study it scientifically. They seem to fear that study of UFOs might lead to scientific proof of the existence of the supernatural. Calling the "supernatural" by other more scientifically acceptable sounding names such as "interdimensional" and "extradimensional" does not seem to assuage their incipient terror in the slightest. If you stop to think about it for a moment, UFOs have vastly more scientific evidence in their favor than any of the multitude of varied paranormal phenomena. UFOs have thousands of simultaneous independent witnesses, independent witnesses with triangulations, simultaneous radar-visual trackings, measured microwave radar emissions, photographic missile tracking camera triangulations, EM effects, interference with nuclear missiles and missile sites, and much more. Whereas there is none of the preceding types of evidence for psi, psychokinesis, poltergeists, etc. Thus UFOs pose a much greater threat of providing scientific proof of their existence than any of the paranormal phenomena, and that seems to upset and gnaw at the CSICOPers. As I said before, surely the CSICOP crowd would want to embrace proof of purely materialistic, non-spiritual, evolution of life on other worlds. But apparently they instinctively fear that UFOs will not turn out to be products of life on other planets but manifestations of God or a supernatural "spiritual" dimension, and that scares them. If there is even the remotest chance of that happening then it must be crushed at all costs,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Bessent Phoenix UFO Video Is Fake From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:49:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:01:47 -0400 Subject: Bessent Phoenix UFO Video Is Fake KTVK-TV News Phoenix: The UFO Video Is A Fake On Friday June 17, 2005 KTVK-TV News Phoenix announced that the alleged UFO video over Phoenix is a fake. The tv newscast denounced Brian Bessent as the hoaxer. Brian Bessent, a Texas resident and owner of the UFO Theatre website sells the DVD Signs from the Sky for a living. He is also a musician. As a colaborator for Scott Davis, Producer KTVK-News Phoenix I have been involved in this investigation that comes to a conclusion in a short period of time, just two weeks. I would like to point out some relevant facts that lead to this conclusive end for the investigation. In chronological order as an account of the events in the two weeks period. A) On wednesday June 8, 2004 a story of a new UFO sighting was published at Rense.com. The report submitted by " Brian " told about his alleged UFO sighting on Sunday June 5, 2005 at around 10:00 PM outside the Wal-Mart parking lot in Phoenix. Brian presented a video as well as several still frames. Brian declared he shot the video using a tripod at first and later on handheld. The camera was in night shot mode. B) That same morning June 8 I read the article and visited the UFO Theatre website. I took a look into the Signs from the Sky webpage and I discovered the same still frames from the video on display there along with other images. The DVD Signs from the Sky has been for sale for sometime and this is the webpage to place orders. Credit cards banners are all over. I got disconcerted as the legend above the frames said: Screen shots from Movie implying this alleged new June 5 2005 video shot just two days before was included already in the DVD. Exhibit No. 1: http://www.evox.com.mx/google_new_mirror/ I immediately sent a message to them asking for an explanation of this anomaly and questioning if these images were just being uploaded to the DVD, intentionally, to increase the sales of the DVD displaying the new spectacular images along with the others. At the same time I denounced displaying video images that were not included in the DVD was a fraud on customers. Therefore my inquiry had these two interrogative issues that needed to be explained. The next day I received a reply saying that in fact it was an error in indexing files etc. The mentioned still frames were removed. C) On June 9, 2005 KTVK-TV News CH-3 Phoenix released the story and began an investigation on the case. The next days they followed the story with updates and more interviews. D) On June 10, 2005 I joined the Scott Davis, Producer KTVK-TV CH-3 Phoenix research team as a colaborator/consultant for their investigation on this case. E) On Sunday June 12, 2005 Jim Dilettoso, video analyst from Phoenix was interviewed on national radio show in Mexico City regarding the alleged UFO video. Delattoso declared the video was a fake and gave details of his findings. Exhibit No. 2: http://www.evox.com.mx/google_new_mirror/ Select MP3 # 1 F) Scott Davis Producer and KTVK-TV requested Brian Bessent to submit his original footage to be properly analyzed to clear any doubt about it's authenticity. Bessent finally agreed. On June 14, 2005 I was informed by Scott Davis that Jim Dilettoso will be allowed to analyze the original footage by Brian Bessent in a meeting to take place the next day June 15 with tv cameras recording the event. "Bessent finally agreed to submit his camera and original videotape for professional analysis and he also agreed to allow our news cameras to document the process." That same night June 14, Brian Bessent was interviewed by Jeff Rense on radio. Bessent declared that he was going to allow Jim Dilettoso to analyze the original footage. Exhibit No. 3: http://www.evox.com.mx/google_new_mirror/ Select MP3 # 2 G) June 15, 2005. Everything was ready and set for the meeting with Jim Dilettoso, Scott Davis and the KTVK-TV News crew with cameras ready to roll. Brian Bessent NEVER SHOWED UP !! He later sent an email saying he just changed his mind. However KTVK News continued with the programmed video analysis in Brian Bessent's absence using the digital copy of the footage taken from the transfer made before by them. G) June 17, 2005. KTVK-TV News announced at 8:00PM on Channel 3 that the June 5, 2005 UFO over Phoenix story was a hoax exposing the facts of the faked footage made by Brian Bessent. This is not the first time that Brian Bessent has been in trouble with fake videos. In 2003 Brian Bessent tried to deceive the people claiming he videotaped a ufo flotilla over San Saba Texas. The video was posted in his website UFO Theatre. The footage resulted a flock of birds and was disqualified immediately by the ufologists. See Brian's birds flotilla: Exhibit No. 4: http://www.geocities.com/brian_bessent/sansaba2003.mpg Short later Brian Bessent surprisingly attempted again to deceive the people with a new alleged ufo flotilla video he claimed this time was the real thing. This new video resulted another flock of birds. The ufo community began to laugh about Bessent's naivety. Needless to say Brian removed immediatelly both videos from his ufo theatre website. Here's Bessent second birds flotilla video: Exhibit No. 5: http://www.geocities.com/brian_bessent/ufotheatrehoax2.mpg During the course of this investigation I got a video from Germany made by Wahrheit recreating Bessent's footage and describing the step-by step proccess of how Brian's fake was made. Interestingly the term Flash animation was also mentioned. Exhibit No. 6: http://cmath.free.fr/signes/wahrufopart2MP4.mov At the same time I sustained a correspondence with Jerald Doerr, Hollywood's award nominee and CGI wizard in reference to the alleged UFO footage by Bessent. Jerald also gave me his tutorial of a step-by- step proccess how this footage was produced. Jerald has been kind enough to offer to make his own recreation as a contribution to this investigation. We are waiting his recreation to be finished these days. As a summary of this Brian Bessent's affair I may say that it has been so unfortunated, so regrettable that this man from Texas arrived to Phoenix just to contaminate the Phoenix Lights scenario with his controversy and his ominous hoax. This has been certainly an offense for all of those honest and legitimate ufo witnesses that put Phoenix at the top of the Ufological scenarios in March 13, 1997. It's clear that Brian Bessent not only deceived the people, the Phoenix residents and KTVK-TV News but also tried to take advantage of the Phoenix Lights case in order to sell his DVDs. This was a short investigation indeed due to the evident facts of the hoax commited along with the obscure background of the character. There are more elements and facts in this investigation, I just appointed some of them here.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Gallup Poll: 1 In 4 Americans Believe In Paranormal From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:59:10 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:04:29 -0400 Subject: Gallup Poll: 1 In 4 Americans Believe In Paranormal Now ain't this a hoot! The numbers are still high even with all the new fangled technologies and scientific discoveries. Guess it's hard to keep a good ghost down. Best, Greg ----- Source: Gallop Polls http://gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=16915 June 16, 2005 Three In Four Americans Believe in Paranormal Little change from similar results in 2001 by David W. Moore A recent Gallup survey shows that just about three in four Americans hold some paranormal belief - in at least one of the following: extra sensory perception (ESP), haunted houses, ghosts, mental telepathy, clairvoyance, astrology, communicating
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:25:22 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:05:42 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:04:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:42:00 -0400 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >The problem of getting mainstream science to examine >"paranormal" events is indeed an issue, and one that the major >UFO groups have discussed at length, including a large meeting >of the minds in Washington DC several years ago (with funding >from the SciFi Channel). A lot of ideas were discussed, but no >"magic bullet" solutions were identified and everyone has gone >back to their existing groups to continue as before. I am working on solutions to the UFO problem but without any funding and with very little discussion. Some aspects are confidential but one major project, the collection of the best AF Unknowns, is something I've been compiling for some years now and have widely posted on different websites as a "work in progress." I have seen very little of this best scientific UFO evidence collected anywhere. The major reference works include too many cases of widely varying levels of quality and case/witness credibility, and scientists have no patience to sift through it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 New Model 'Permits Time Travel' From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:56:29 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:07:33 -0400 Subject: New Model 'Permits Time Travel' New Model 'permits Time Travel' In theory, you could go back in time and meet your infant father but you could not kill him, a new quantum model of time travel suggests.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:37:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:11:05 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >Perhaps not; I didn't use the term imply anything >"supernatural". Maybe "psychological" _would_ have been a better >term, but "spiritual" is more specific in that it denotes a >certain spectrum of human experience (empirically validated or >not). >I understand your reservations regarding the "S" word. At the >same time, it's clear to me that there's a psycho-spiritual >dynamic at work that begs attention, whether it's instigated by >ETs or not. There is always a "psycho-spiritual dynamic at work" when human beings consider the unknown. Perhaps that helps drive curiosity, but at the end of the inquiry, when the workings of the world's phenomena - however complex or curious - are understood, supernatural and religious explanations fall by the wayside. I am in no sense hostile to religion (I am a practicing Roman Catholic), but it is not coequal with science and reason as a method to unravel the secrets of the natural world. When people ascribe religious/spiritual "explanations" to currently unexplained manifestations (such as, in this instance, UFOs), all they are acknowledging is their own ignorance. It was not all that long ago, for example, that oxygen was unknown; life was explained as the consequence of God's breathing into living creatures and plants. It doesn't follow, of course, that the universe may not indeed be a highly weird place peopled with intelligences that appear inscrutable. We ought to know better, though, than - for example - the Aztecs, who on first encounter had their own spiritual/religious "explanation" for those strange men who stepped off ships and rode atop bizarre and terrifying quadrupeds.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:37:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:45:51 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Clark >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:50:45 EDT >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:30:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Greg Boone <MEvolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT >>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >This "remote possibility," as I called it in a previous posting, >is what I think drives the primal fears of the CSICOP crowd, >their intense emotional responses, their animosity, to the UFO >phenomenon and to those who try to study it scientifically. >They seem to fear that study of UFOs might lead to scientific >proof of the existence of the supernatural. Calling the >"supernatural" by other more scientifically acceptable sounding >names such as "interdimensional" and "extradimensional" does not >seem to assuage their incipient terror in the slightest. Brad, You may be giving the CSICOP/pelicanist crowd more credit for intellectual coherence than it deserves. It is so far gone into hysteria that at this stage, for all practical (or lunatic) purposes, it equates the notion of visiting extraterrestrials - as opposed to ones who exist only in theory and at a safely silent and invisible distance - with supernatural entities, thus to be hated and dismissed with equal fervor and with comparable appeals to the thunder-and-lightning gods of logical positivism. ETs may or may not be visiting the earth, but that is an empirical question which one day will be resolved to the satisfaction of reasonable persons. Religious and spiritual debates, because they are not so resolvable, will go on forever. Maybe that's the idea: an eternity of CSICOP's patented (and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:59:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>From: Terry Groff >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>I am not promoting this video. I don't know if it is real or >>>>fake. I'll leave that up to the experts. But I DO know how >>>>Google caching works and I do know what "mirror" web pages are >>>>and none of your evidence is valid. Once even one word in the >>>>HTML code is changed (which is what the French 'researcher' did >>>>when he changed the HTML code to the file names of the images) >>>>it renders the page invalid. Google does not cache images it >>>>only caches filenames. Why can't you understand that? All that >>>>French page indicates is that those images were on the >>>>ufotheatre.com server on June 12th. It does not prove otherwise. >Terry and Santiago >This is so strange... it seems increasingly clear that we have a >case of evidence being fabricated to discredit a video which was >itself a fabrication. I have seen some analysis today and done >some on my own concerning this video. The video has some serious >problems. These lights are too static for a video that has >camera motion and zooming.... I could be wrong. I have seen >analysis done by two others and I tend to agree with them >concerning the problems with this video. You would expect to >find either the video or the debunking evidence to be >fabricated. I did not expect both to be bogus. It seems we have >skeptics fabricating evidence to debunk a hoaxer's fabricated >video. >Nothing surprises me anymore. Rob, I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher (who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way he saved the page. His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June 12th, not on May 28th I am convinced now (after being on the fence) that the UFO footage is a fake. That is only because it has been examined by experts and proven to be so.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: Bessent Phoenix UFO Video Is Fake - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:13:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:02:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Bessent Phoenix UFO Video Is Fake - Deardorff >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:49:58 +0000 >Subject: Bessent Phoenix UFO Video Is Fake <snip> >This is not the first time that Brian Bessent has been in >trouble with fake videos. In 2003 Brian Bessent tried to deceive >the people claiming he videotaped a ufo flotilla over San Saba >Texas. The video was posted in his website UFO Theatre. The >footage resulted a flock of birds and was disqualified >immediately by the ufologists. See Brian's birds flotilla: >Exhibit No. 4: >http://www.geocities.com/brian_bessent/sansaba2003.mpg Hello Santiago, The above footage showed a couple of things I found surprising. At one point, one of the "birds" in the flock of ten suddenly moved about 500% faster than the flock or fleet in changing its position from the lower side to the upper side. Meanwhile the rest of the flock just moved along horizontally as before, except that the one in the rear moved towards the front, eclipsing (or being eclipsed by) two of them in the process. Also, most of the time, especially when the flock is nearest, I could see no indications of (flapping) wings. I would have to imagine that they were there. I was interested in knowing if others have ever seen any group
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 18 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:28:08 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:10:22 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Sparks >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:37:28 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:50:45 EDT >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:30:13 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>>From: Greg Boone <MEvolbaby.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>>>>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>This "remote possibility," as I called it in a previous posting, >>is what I think drives the primal fears of the CSICOP crowd, >>their intense emotional responses, their animosity, to the UFO >>phenomenon and to those who try to study it scientifically. >>They seem to fear that study of UFOs might lead to scientific >>proof of the existence of the supernatural. Calling the >>"supernatural" by other more scientifically acceptable sounding >>names such as "interdimensional" and "extradimensional" does not >>seem to assuage their incipient terror in the slightest. >Brad, >You may be giving the CSICOP/pelicanist crowd more credit for >intellectual coherence than it deserves. It is so far gone into >hysteria that at this stage, for all practical (or lunatic) >purposes, it equates the notion of visiting extraterrestrials - >as opposed to ones who exist only in theory and at a safely >silent and invisible distance - with supernatural entities, thus >to be hated and dismissed with equal fervor and with comparable >appeals to the thunder-and-lightning gods of logical positivism. <snip> Jerry, You may notice that is why is have referred to it as their "primal fears" and "instinctive" "terror" at the idea. It is not a coherent and well-articulated position, but something they do not seem to want to openly admit. Maybe they do not even consciously recognize the psychological forces animating them on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:25:31 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:15:16 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Boone >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:50:45 EDT >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:30:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:11:59 EDT >>>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:24:14 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: What Is Happening To UFO Updates? >>>>What in the good Lord's name is going on, on UFO Updates? ><snip> >>If God showed up on a radar screen or in the sky and was >>able to >>be photographed, then we might have something. ... >Billy Graham thinks UFOs might be manifestations of angels. If >so, and that's a very big "if", then "God" _is_ showing up on >radar screens, being photographed, leaving EM effects and >landing traces, etc. Demons are just the flip side of angels, >both are entities in the "spiritual" dimension according to >theological research going back centuries. Angels are >messengers >of God or direct manifestations of God according to these >studies. Hey now, don't get to messin' with Rev. Billy Graham! If he says UFOs might be manifestations of angels then it's best not to go against the grain there! Rev. Graham rules the floor of American religious groups and his postulate weighs heavily with tens of millions of decision making Americans. Religion is big business and UFOs, as the data clearly shows, are witnessed by a global cross section of religious and ethnic groups so no one's got ownership on the subject. I'll bet however that every religious and ethnic group hopes that should some solid proof come out that it doesn't invalidate their beliefs and ties that bind. Why? It's obvious, cause if it invalidated Buddhism it would wipe out a billion + membership. Same with Christianity and Islam. I'll bet every government that gets those religious dollars are sweating bullets. Religion's the only thing keeping us from acting like our closest animal relatives, the chimpanzees. Yes, those hairy cannibalistic, child killing, promiscuous, pack of murdering primates we dress up in clown outfits and teach to play cards. I recall, however, an Imam who ran down what UFOs were during a lecture, and he too concluded that angels etc., were the same and that over the millenia things got confused as cultures and corrupt leaders wandered away from the original definitions. I got he same story and conclusions from orthodox Rabbis and orthodox Christian priests from the old countries. It was no big thing to them. Their primary concern was whether people realized the important thing was making good with God. Other than that they sweated not about the subject. So, that was my introduction to the UFOs connections with angels/demons etc. Lots to be had if one goes and studies the original works :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:26:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:18:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Hatch >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:13:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see >>a grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >>insulators. >Not really. Electronic equipment makes use of all sizes and >shapes of faraday cages to shield and isolate different stages >of electronic equipment from interfering with each other, >radiating, or picking up environmental electromagnetic signals >not intended. >There are hundreds of faraday cages used this way in >automobiles and aircraft, all of which work just fine not >Earthed. >Grounding will bleed off heavy electrostatic phenomena, like >St. Elmo's fire, or lightning, but for conventional >electromagnetic "waves", grounding isn't needed, as evidenced by >the success of automotive and aircraft electronics. Hello Eleanor: If there is one thing I like, it is your ability to respond to all sorts of questions. To the best of my knowledge, the Holy Bible is silent in regards to Electo-Magnetic-Effects or EME as I call them here: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm Ooops!! I meant over here. Fewer demonic causalties - Larry's site I must go to bed now, its really late, even for me. 2 choices remain: floor and bed, the floor is closer but the pillow is softer. Then again there exists a fridge fulla booze. Tough is life! "Then more some beer resembles Budweiser or Coors, the higher the water bill." - LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Holistic Physics And Ufology - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:47:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Holistic Physics And Ufology - Maccabee >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:03:26 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Holistic Physics And Ufology >List, >Here's a very good essay about the nature of consciousness and >awareness that I suspect has some bearing on the UFO question. >Here's a representative quote: >"Many primitive peoples organized their lives around a doctrine >we call "animism", the belief that every object possesses >sentient "insides" like our own. The quantum consciousness >assumption, which amounts to a kind of "quantum animism" >likewise asserts that consciousness is an integral part of the >physical world, not an emergent property of special biological >or computational systems. Since everything in the world is on >some level a quantum system, this assumption requires that >everything be conscious on that level. If the world is truly >quantum animated, then there is an immense amount of invisible >inner experience going on all around us that is presently >inaccessible to humans, because our own inner lives are >imprisoned inside a small quantum system, isolated deep in the >meat of an animal brain. We may not need to travel into outer >space to inhabit entirely new worlds. New experiential worlds of >inconceivable richness and variety may already be present "at >our fingertips"-worlds made up of strangely intelligent minds >that silently surround and interpenetrate our own modes of >awareness." >To read the entire essay, see: >http://www.southerncrossreview.org/16/herbert.essay.htm See also: http://brumac.8k.com/AbductionInLife/INTELLECTON.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:50:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:28:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher >(who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror >page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way >he saved the page. >His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on >June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June >12th, not on May 28th >I am convinced now (after being on the fence) that the UFO >footage is a fake. That is only because it has been examined by >experts and proven to be so. >The Google caching thing, however, was not a good approach to >proving a fraud. You are right Terry. The Google thing was not evidence that the footage was fake, as I mentioned in my posts. It was a completely diferent issue, derived from the anomaly of the frames on display at the webpage - something that they recognized, explained, and corrected, removing the mentioned frames. However one thing leads to another during the proccess of an investigation, searching for any posible link to important and relevant information regarding the case. The official investigation was ongoing at that time and I couldn't reveal I was involved, because the proccess was confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:50:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:29:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Consequents To Clarke's - Reason >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:57:03 -0400 >Subject: Consequents To Clarke's [was: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates?] >Other writers have since proposed corollaries (not all of them >actually corollaries, technically speaking) to Clarke's laws: To these you might like to add Leonora's Lemma:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:36:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >This is so strange... it seems increasingly clear that we have a >case of evidence being fabricated to discredit a video which was >itself a fabrication. I have seen some analysis today and done >some on my own concerning this video. The video has some serious >problems. These lights are too static for a video that has >camera motion and zooming.... I could be wrong. I have seen >analysis done by two others and I tend to agree with them >concerning the problems with this video. You would expect to >find either the video or the debunking evidence to be >fabricated. I did not expect both to be bogus. It seems we have >skeptics fabricating evidence to debunk a hoaxer's fabricated >video. Hi Rob and List I'm not debunking this video but I do have some questions about the light source as far as pixel blending is concerned. Even if you have a low res image of this video, if you look at the blending of colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program you will find definite black pixels spotted here and there within some areas of the UFOs light source. From years of looking at images digital and other I have acquired some understanding of pixels and blending. There appears to be something wrong with the colour blending of some pixels in this video. I may be wrong and if so can some one please explain to me why definite black pixels appear not to be blended with its closest neighboring colour which it should, showing a smoothing of colour blending which should show various shads of the neighboring colours. Example, white to grey-ish white then blending into black. An example of what I'm taking about can be seen by doing this simple test: Warning: this example may bore some people on the List, but it might help those who are not aware of how pixels blend, get better understanding. A simple test in a graphic program: Start with a square, resolution at 72 dpi size 7x7 cm, colour the box black. Next draw a circle to represent light, fill this circle with white, now you have black box with a white circle. Using zoom, zoom-in, take note of circles edge, notice the blending of the circles colour, which appear like boxes from white to grey-ish-white moving out to black. Now, increase resolution to 140 again note the blending of colour. Now increase the size of the image to 28 cm wide which is what some video cameras capture an image. Now maximum zoom in and take note of the blending of colour again on the edge of the circle. Finally, increase dpi to 300 res, note the blending of colour as the program adds colour by using fuzzy-logic. Now drop your image resolution to 28 dpi notice not much happens to the blending other than the pixels are more defined but the colours still blend. --- Thanks for taking the time to try this experiment and if I'm wrong I'm sure someone on the List will point it out to me, as I'm keen to learn. Now, can some please explain why black boxes of colour are in white areas? Shouldn't they be white-ish in colour or even grey?. Rob, the area I took an interest in was the center of the cluster and the center light source. Let me know what you find?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:39:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Terry Groff >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>>From: Terry Groff >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:30 -0700 (PDT) >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher >(who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror >page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way >he saved the page. >His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on >June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June >12th, not on May 28th Yes, he contacted me and let me know that he was suggesting a redirection of effort as the Google Cache did not seem to be a an exact method of verification. Neither this Researcher nor Santiago pushed this avenue of inquiry after that, which I thought to be a responsible decision on their part. Let me be clear on this: I don't believe that Santiago or the French researcher fabricated anything in conjunction with this case. >The Goggle caching thing, however, was not a good approach to >proving a fraud. I agree... I thought it was like putting someone on trial using witness testimony when the DNA evidence was available. However, I should take some of the blame here, as I did not share information I had at the time with them that there was someone out there who was doctoring documents and sending fraudulent e-mails in regard to this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:28:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:55:19 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Balaskas >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:37:05 -0500 >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >>Perhaps not; I didn't use the term imply anything >>"supernatural". Maybe "psychological" _would_ have been a better >>term, but "spiritual" is more specific in that it denotes a >>certain spectrum of human experience (empirically validated or >>not). >>I understand your reservations regarding the "S" word. At the >>same time, it's clear to me that there's a psycho-spiritual >>dynamic at work that begs attention, whether it's instigated by >>ETs or not. >There is always a "psycho-spiritual dynamic at work" when human >beings consider the unknown. Perhaps that helps drive curiosity, >but at the end of the inquiry, when the workings of the world's >phenomena - however complex or curious - are understood, >supernatural and religious explanations fall by the wayside. I >am in no sense hostile to religion (I am a practicing Roman >Catholic), but it is not coequal with science and reason as a >method to unravel the secrets of the natural world. <snip> Hi Jerry! If you were to lose your sense of sight, or were born without it, you could still visualize the world around you from the feedback you got from the other four senses. Of course, it may not be the same world as perceived through another person's eyes. Even those who have sight, but are colour blind, still see the world very differently than the rest of us. Let us now say that in addition to losing your sight, you also lost your sense of touch; your sense of smell; your sense of hearing and your sense of taste. Since science (human knowledge and understanding) is sense-based and the supernatural is non- sense based because it relies on the human conscience or brain (or spirit/soul?), then what would we call this non-sense based science? Religion? If science is sense based, then by definition I guess religion could be considered nonsense! ;o) Thanks to modern scientific thought and intellectual deduction, it is now believed - a word that comes up more and more in science - that the cosmos which we are all a part of is, in fact, much more vast and complex thant we can ever expect to comprehend from science, based on experiences through our senses alone. I agree with you that supernatural and religious explanations are not co-equal with science and reason - maybe the former is greater than the later, or science and reason already includes such ideas which cannot be observed or tested. As advanced beings created in the image of God - I am semi-practising Orthodox Christian - by restricting ourselves to our five senses and ignoring the intellectual and spiritual dimension - the human brain is the seat of conscience and is by far the most complex form of organised matter known in the entire universe - we can be assured we will continue in our ignorance, and the UFO mystery will remain unsolved until some more enlightened generation
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Wells Welles Spielberg & Bush From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:38:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:38:25 -0400 Subject: Wells Welles Spielberg & Bush Two Top Guns Shoot Blanks By Frank Rich Rich's column in today's New York Times may be of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Starchild Update From: Lloyd Pye <lloydpye.nul> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:31:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:41:15 -0400 Subject: Starchild Update Hi Everyone! Yes, it's been only five weeks since the last update, much earlier than I normally post. However, I have news about the bone testing being conducted in England. As you all should know by now, the DNA testing done in 2003 was not able to achieve a satisfactory result because the Starchild's nuclear DNA (the part in every cell nucleus that holds DNA from both mother and father) could not be recovered using primers normally used in that process. So we've been forced to look for other means to the same goal of proving beyond reasonable doubt our suspicion that it came from a being who was not entirely human. One of those means is to analyze in extreme detail the biochemistry of the bone itself from both an inorganic and organic standpoint. This has been happening in England while I've moved back to the States to write a book about my six years of trying to shepherd this amazing relic through the minefield of skeptical science and scientists. The first round of testing the inorganic material is now complete, and the results are interesting but not nearly what we anticipate from organic material results due later in this year. To sum it up in a nutshell, I'll quote the last part of the report sent to me: "The magnitude of differences between the FEM (female skull) and SCD (Starchild skull) bone samples is not huge (in inorganic aspects), but it does suggest the Starchild may have had a slightly different diet/water supply, or been brought up in a slightly different area, from where the Female spent most of her (adult) life." Obviously, this is not earthshaking news. We have always assumed the two skulls were indeed found in northwestern Mexico, as claimed by their discoverer, and the results of the Carbon-14 dating, and now this new information, bear that out. For the techno-heads among you, the materials tested included--and here I quote the report--"major and trace element composition, strontium isotope ratios, lead isotope ratios, oxygen isotope ratio, hydrogen isotope ratio, and the bone mineralogy." Okay, enough for now. I'm sure you don't mind this being a short one. Tune in to Coast to Coast on Monday the 20th if you can, or check the archive later if that suits you. And dokeep in mind that everyone on the Starchild's far-flung "team" intends to keep hammering away at this conundrum until we have definitive answers about it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:16:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:43:58 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Dickenson >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:28:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >If you were to lose your sense of sight, or were born without >it, you could still visualize the world around you from the >feedback you got from the other four senses. Of course, it may >not be the same world as perceived through another person's >eyes. Even those who have sight, but are colour blind, still see >the world very differently than the rest of us. Hi Nick, An interesting fact about our senses would seem to say we're not "seeing" all of reality. Say a person born blind recovers their sight after 50 or so years (after blow to the head?) - what do they see? Mostly they see horrible things - just a packet of cornflakes can be threatening, and sadly, they find even loved ones grotesque or disgusting to look at. [Even more sadly - to date most of those regaining sight late in life actually retire to darkened rooms or even commit suicide] So - what are we `normals' seeing?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:14:36 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:46:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >This is so strange... it seems increasingly clear that we have a >case of evidence being fabricated to discredit a video which was >itself a fabrication. I have seen some analysis today and done >some on my own concerning this video. The video has some serious >problems. These lights are too static for a video that has >camera motion and zooming.... I could be wrong. I have seen >analysis done by two others and I tend to agree with them >concerning the problems with this video. You would expect to >find either the video or the debunking evidence to be >fabricated. I did not expect both to be bogus. It seems we have >skeptics fabricating evidence to debunk a hoaxer's fabricated >video. >I'm not debunking this video but I do have some >questions about the light source as far as pixel >blending is concerned. Even if you have a low res >image of this video, if you look at the blending of >colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program >you will find definite black pixels spotted here and >there within some areas of the UFOs light source. >Now, can some please explain why black boxes of >colour are in white areas? Shouldn't they be white-ish >in colour or even grey?. You are absolutely right in your findings Diane and this was one of the issues exposed by Dilettoso and co-investigator Ken Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film during the tv news special about this case. There are more evidences found by the experts that leaves no doubt the video was fabricated. By the way I would like to clarify that the footage analyzed was a digital copy made from the original by KTVK-TV News, not from an MPEG video taken from the Internet as, incredibly, these UFO Theatre people and followers are trying to imply in retaliation now that Bessent's world is falling apart.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:52:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Rob Kritkausky >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher >>(who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror >>page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way >>he saved the page. >>His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on >>June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June >>12th, not on May 28th >Yes, he contacted me and let me know that he was suggesting a >redirection of effort as the Google Cache did not seem to be a >an exact method of verification. Neither this Researcher nor >Santiago pushed this avenue of inquiry after that, which I >thought to be a responsible decision on their part. Let me be >clear on this: I don't believe that Santiago or the French >researcher fabricated anything in conjunction with this case. >>The Goggle caching thing, however, was not a good approach to >>proving a fraud. >I agree... I thought it was like putting someone on trial using >witness testimony when the DNA evidence was available. However, >I should take some of the blame here, as I did not share >information I had at the time with them that there was someone >out there who was doctoring documents and sending fraudulent >e-mails in regard to this. I think I know who you mean. I received some e-mails from a guy who seemed to be obssessed with Brian Bessent. So much so that he even signed his e-mails with his name and used it in his email
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:54:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Groff >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:50:19 +0000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>From: Terry Groff >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:12 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:24:50 +0000 >>>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona ><snip> >>I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher >>(who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror >>page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way >>he saved the page. >>His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on >>June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June >>12th, not on May 28th >>I am convinced now (after being on the fence) that the UFO >>footage is a fake. That is only because it has been examined by >>experts and proven to be so. >>The Google caching thing, however, was not a good approach to >>proving a fraud. >You are right Terry. The Google thing was not evidence that >the footage was fake, as I mentioned in my posts. It was >a completely diferent issue, derived from the anomaly of the >frames on display at the webpage - something that they >recognized, explained, and corrected, removing the mentioned >frames. >However one thing leads to another during the proccess of an >investigation, searching for any posible link to important and >relevant information regarding the case. >The official investigation was ongoing at that time and I >couldn't reveal I was involved, because the proccess was >confidential. >The investigation was carried out by a television producer, a >TV news >crew, several UFO researchers and video analysis experts, all >forming a research team with one purpose: To get to the truth. Santiago, I just wanted to say I applaud your efforts at getting to the truth and I hope we don't let that silly Google stuff stand in the way of our being friends. I certainly look forward to meeting you at sometime in the future and I would rather there be no bad blood between us.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Johns From: Shane Johns <shane.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:44:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:58:13 -0400 Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? - Johns >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:28:52 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: What Is Happening To UFO UpDates? <snip> >brain is the seat of conscience and is by far the most complex >form of organised matter known in the entire universe - we can be >assured we will continue in our ignorance, and the UFO mystery >will remain unsolved until some more enlightened generation >comes along, or we learn again, what our wise parents and >ancestors had already accepted as self-evident truths. Nick, I tend to agree with most of what you say. I do not, however, believe it is accurate to claim that the human mind is the most organized substance in the universe/multiverse. There are those of us who look at solar masses as examples of complexity beyond our own abilities to discern. And while it may be true that such a massive body (and correspondingly complex 'neural representations') is beyond our capacity to understand completely, logic does permit us at least some degree of limited understanding. I know, I know - some will claim that is Blasphemy. But ancient philosophers did place such positive- restrictions on 'God' - making Him/It/Her into a super- beneficent, super-moral, super-just, etc., entity. I would contend that we are able to comprehend some systems without apprehending all of the various and perhaps disperate parts simultaneously. G=F6del's Incompleteness Theorem is quite revealing in this respect. We need not look at all possible permutations/combinations in mathematics in order to demonstrate truths about the system. Likewise, we not need simultaneously
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: UK FOIA Requests - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:00:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:00:43 -0400 Subject: Re: UK FOIA Requests - Koi >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:51:10 +0100 >Subject: UK FOIA Requests <snip> >I also came across missives written by people who were >clearly deluded <snip> >Another individual had a 'knack' of >recognising aliens within our society (because aliens have >prominent eye-ridges) and they offered their services as an >'alien detector' to the MoD. Hi Joe, I wonder if the latter missive you saw was from the same chap who considered that "any UFO enthusiast would treasure [his correspondence with the Ministry] for the rest of his life" and advised the Ministry of Defence that he had had repeated contact with aliens, very similar to us in appearance. The letter stated all of these aliens had been female, "I suppose they use females because they are far less conspicuous than would be males". The letter also stated "I pride myself in knowing that I have learnt to pick them out from other people. In fact, in the very unlikely event of war with these people, I would be very useful". Fortunately, these aliens are "very respectable people and very clean". (Public Record Office File Reference AIR 2/18871, document E108 dated 7th October 1972). >If anyone is thinking about making requests under the FoIA to >the MoD, here are a few pointers: >1) The MoD are not obliged to respond to requests that will >cost more than =A3600 to satisfy. This equates roughly to >checking a year or two's records and providing copies of >specific documents from within that >timeframe relevant to a specific request. >2) Any records more than 25 years old are most likely under >the control of The National Archives, not the MoD. >3) Probably in the order of 5-10 years worth of records are >held in the department's office. Older documents (which have >not been sent to TNA) will be under the control of the >Departmental Records Officer. The request will still need to >go to the FoIA contact, but records 5-25 years old will most >likely take longer to process. >4) Don't bother asking for MoD records on Area 51 or Roswell, >or indeed (with a few exceptions, usually involving UK >military personnel) relating to events anywhere outside the >UK. Foreign incidents are outside the scope of the MoD, and >it is doubtful if they take any interest in them except in >extraordinary circumstances. The Foreign and Commonwealth >office may have taken an interest in specific foreign UFO >events, and might be worth contacting. >5) Make any requests as specific as possible, and confined to >a relatively narrow (eg 2 years or less) date-range. It is no >good specifically asking for records of all CE3 cases >received by the MoD without specifying a sensible date range >- someone would have to spend their time checking 25 years >worth of records, which would certainly breach the =A3600 >barrier. >If the MoD are getting bogged down responding to questions >which they are unable or not obliged to respond to >adequately replies to valid questions will be delayed as a >consequence. Excellent advice Joe, and I hope it is followed. As I'm sure you know, almost none of the 37 requests received by the MOD about UFOs during January 2005 comply with the guidelines you've listed. Indeed, many of the requests do not comply with the more basic points of being coherent and comprehensible. Furthermore, if (for example) the person making the request can't be bothered looking up the date (in a book or on the Internet) of a well-known incident, or be bothered to correctly spell the location of an incident, what are the odds of the MOD being bothered to rectify the failings of the person making the request?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:04:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Rob Kritkausky To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >From: Diane Harrison >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >Hi Rob and List >I'm not debunking this video but I do have some questions about >the light source as far as pixel blending is concerned. Even if >you have a low res image of this video, if you look at the >blending of colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program >you will find definite black pixels spotted here and there >within some areas of the UFOs light source. From years of >looking at images digital and other I have acquired some >understanding of pixels and blending. There appears to be >something wrong with the colour blending of some pixels in this >video. I may be wrong and if so can some one please explain to >me why definite black pixels appear not to be blended with its >closest neighboring colour which it should, showing a smoothing >of colour blending which should show various shads of the >neighboring colours. Diane: While I did not have a chance to analyze this video as much as I would have liked, I did examine Santiago, Scott and Jim's analysis of this video. They did a good job and there is really no other conclusion to arrive at other then Hoax. IMO As for the "black pixel" problem you describe, I have a theory as to how that would happen. I believe this would be the type of thing you would see from layering an inferior CGI over the top of a higher resolution video track. Example: A GIF on top of an AVI. It is possible to create GIFs in PhotoShop and import them into Adobe Premier or Aftereffects for use in a more complex project. In addition, while one may think of a circle with a gradient applied to be a solid center fading to 0% at the edges, Photoshop allows for more complex blending. For instance, you could have a blend that started at 0% in the center, then blended to 100% at 75% of the radius and then blended back to 0% again. This would help in creating a animated layer that did not look too "cartoon-like". Then you could render the project back to the DV camera so it seemed like your video was authentic. Your experiment is a good way to help someone visualize how Graphics/Video programs deal with digital resolution issues.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 19 Re: Wells Welles Spielberg & Bush - Weber From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:17:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:08:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Wells Welles Spielberg & Bush - Weber UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Two Top Guns Shoot Blanks >By Frank Rich >Rich's column in today's New York Times may be of >interest to the List: >http://tinyurl.com/947gx Hi, Errol, All, I find it the height of irony that many aspects of unfunded, largely ridiculed Ufology stands head and shoulders in application of reality based scientific principals over the faith based mainstream scientific community, whether you're talking about the FDA and their passage of unsafe pharmacuticals or the sociopathic and murderous cartoon character of a president's energy plan. Demonology (from whence this topic sprang), should be required as an extra three credits in university poly-sci programs and then, until our present king's bloody reign is over, relegated to government and mainstream science where it apparently finds a good home.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:39:18 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:48:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Terry Groff >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>>From: Rob Kritkausky >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona ><snip> >>>I know now, after exchanging emails with the French researcher >>>(who wishes to remain nameless), that the change in the mirror >>>page was not intentional. It was simply an artifact of the way >>>he saved the page. >>>His page does show exactly how the May 28th cache looked on >>>June 12th. It displayed the images that were available on June >>>12th, not on May 28th >>Yes, he contacted me and let me know that he was suggesting a >>redirection of effort as the Google Cache did not seem to be a >>an exact method of verification. Neither this Researcher nor >>Santiago pushed this avenue of inquiry after that, which I >>thought to be a responsible decision on their part. Let me be >>clear on this: I don't believe that Santiago or the French >>researcher fabricated anything in conjunction with this case. >>>The Goggle caching thing, however, was not a good approach to >>>proving a fraud. >>I agree... I thought it was like putting someone on trial using >>witness testimony when the DNA evidence was available. However, >>I should take some of the blame here, as I did not share >>information I had at the time with them that there was someone >>out there who was doctoring documents and sending fraudulent >>e-mails in regard to this. >I think I know who you mean. I received some e-mails from a guy >who seemed to be obssessed with Brian Bessent. So much so that >he even signed his e-mails with his name and used it in his email >address. He also posted rants to my UFO Tools guestbook until I >(not so politely) told him to stop. Hi Terry and List You might find this article interesting: CNET News.com http://news.com.com/2100-1038_3-1024234.html July 9, 2003
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:46:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:50:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:14:36 +0000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>I'm not debunking this video but I do have some >>questions about the light source as far as pixel >>blending is concerned. Even if you have a low res >>image of this video, if you look at the blending of >>colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program >>you will find definite black pixels spotted here and >>there within some areas of the UFOs light source. >>Now, can some please explain why black boxes of >>colour are in white areas? Shouldn't they be white-ish >>in colour or even grey?. >You are absolutely right in your findings Diane and this was one >of the issues exposed by Dilettoso and co-investigator Ken >Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film during the tv news >special about this case. >There are more evidences found by the experts that leaves no >doubt the video was fabricated. By the way I would like to >clarify that the footage analyzed was a digital copy made from >the original by KTVK-TV News, not from an MPEG video taken from >the Internet as, incredibly, these UFO Theatre people and >followers are trying to imply in retaliation now that Bessent's >world is falling apart. >As advice, be careful of their messages, Brian Bessent and >accomplices are now using profane language. Hello Santiago: Two questions: 1) Without going thru the many posts about this video, what was the precise date and time that Bessent claimed to have taken it in Phoenix? 2) Besides yourself, who should get the major credit for exposing the hoax?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Starchild Update - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:19:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:54:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Starchild Update - Gehrman >From: Lloyd Pye <lloydpye.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:31:40 -0400 >Subject: Starchild Update Hi Lloyd, Read your update and visited your site. Sorry I haven't been paying too much attention to the Starchild story until now, but I find it very interesting and convincing, except for the girl and the cave story; that doesn't seem quite right, somehow. Have you been following the discussion on UpDates and other sites regarding the Alien Autopsy? Have you considered comparing what you see in the AA footage with what you know about the starchild. I had predicted that the AA skull would be lighter and denser from watching it being sawed open. I think, for several reasons that the AA is an evolved monotreme, a humanoid, not hominid via convergent evolution. Happened over 100 million years ago. I'm beginning to think the same about the Starchild.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 MSN Helps Cloud The Issue From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:02:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:02:17 -0400 Subject: MSN Helps Cloud The Issue Source: The Sun Online - London, UK http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005280017,00.html MSN Space Is Your Place! Join the MSN space race and you'll find a place where you can really be yourself - and tell the world about it! MSN Spaces is the latest must-use invention from MSN that lets you share your thoughts and pictures with friends and family ... for FREE. It's also the key to winning fantastic prizes this summer including a trip to Florida to visit the home of the space explorers at NASA's Cape Canaveral. MSN Spaces is the ideal way to create your very own blog and more. MSN Spaces is your online scrapbook =96 a place where you can let everyone know what you are thinking or the music you like. You can also upload your favourite snaps and show the world what you've been doing. It will even work with your mobile phone - via email you can post photos or updates directly to your Space. You can personalise your Spaces with a choice of colours, layouts and themes. And if you use MSN Messenger and Hotmail, you will see when your mates have made changes to their own Spaces and they'll be able to see when new stuff has been added to yours. It couldn't be easier to get a Space, simply visit www.msn.co.uk/spaces and sign up. It won't cost you a penny. Once you've done that, make sure to enter MSN's amazing competition and you could find yourself grabbing a great digital camcorder or MP3 player. Just take a picture of an alien or UFO and add it to your Space along with a blog entry that tells people how and why you took it. If you can't find a real one, you'll find loads of tips=85even on how fake an alien invasion at www.msnspacerace.co.uk But if you fancy jetting off to Florida with full VIP access to the NASA Space Centre, you'll need to locate the hidden UFO, which has been stashed away at a secret facility somewhere in the world.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:23:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:09:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:13:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? ><snip> >>A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often >>see a grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make >>great insulators. >Not really. Electronic equipment makes use of all sizes and >shapes of faraday cages to shield and isolate different stages >of electronic equipment from interfering with each other, >radiating, or picking up environmental electromagnetic signals >not intended. >There are hundreds of faraday cages used this way in >automobiles and aircraft, all of which work just fine not >Earthed. >Grounding will bleed off heavy electrostatic phenomena, like >St. Elmo's fire, or lightning, but for conventional >electromagnetic "waves", grounding isn't needed, as evidenced >by the success of automotive and aircraft electronics. Hi Eleanor, Every piece of equipment used to transmit or receive is grounded, first internally to its own ground, chassis ground [earth for the UK] which is is then grounded to to the next greater potential for grounding like the equipment rack in which it is mounted and in the case of the car, the superstructure. If the equipment was making a spurious signal that was bled off to ground in the chassias which then forwarded it to the cars metal structure there would be nothing to stop that signal from being transmitted or "leaked" into the area outside the car and then interfering with other equipment outside of that vehicle. This is true of the engine compartment open on the bottom which leaks faint stray signal from the ignition system. Rather than caged out in the cars around it, it is filtered out with capacitors. The converse is true of stopping spurious wave propagation into the vehicle from the outside because the windows are transparent to all but the very weakest of wave propagation. The chassis of the car might even transfer a particular wave through the metal structure of the vehicle because it cannot shunt that signal off to ground. As for aircraft, the radios and transponders, DME's, GPS and TCAS etc. are not built into Faraday cages. The equipment itself is in its own metal boxes with RF wave-leaking ventilation holes to prevent heat buildup in the radio stack in the instrument panel, assisted in most cases with fans and even small amounts of ram air from the outside as is/or was common on lighter aircraft. Anyway, the aircraft radios are then mounted in an equipment rack which just retain the equipment in a framework to reduce weight in the instrument panel or they are remotely located in the avionics bay on airliners with every wire shielded from the avionics bay to the readout module in the instrument panel. Everything is grounded and filtered and eventually bonded to the airframe of the aircraft which acts as the ground plane. But it is not truly grounded as is the Faraday cage. If it were free of spurious waves, then they would not tell you to shut off your laptop computer or Gameboy during the take off and landing phase. Every piece of avionics inside the shell of the aircraft could still be sensitive to spurious wave which could affect the sensitive chips in the avionics or allow spurious wave forms to piggyback on the legitimate signal. Even the processors in the avionics computers, though shielded to some extent by their own little Faraday cages can be knocked out by electro-motive pulse [EMP] getting at them through the circuitry that feeds them. A true Faraday cage is made of copper screening with so many strands of cross-hatched, fine, copper wires to a square inch located where heavy braided cable can be run to grounding rods driven deep into compacted soil. Its used to prevent those spurious/stray waves from entering the cage to mess-up [sorry for that scientific term] the sensitive calibrations - or whatever - being carried out inside the cage or prevent such waves from leaving the cage to interfere with electronic equipment close by or even miles away depending on the strength of the signal. I had to work in a Faraday cage while working on ships' radios and nav-aids etc. back in my youth. I carried this limited skill into my flying days as a pilot [still doing it] with a light aircraft carrying 2 transceivers, a Mode-C transponder, GPS, Loran C [until the mid '90s] and aircraft intercom [low risk]. The transceivers are AM, the Mode-C is microwave, the Loran-C was AM. One ongoing battle in my plane was the attempt to get rid of the faint, high buzzing ramp pulse of an SCR circuit in my ruddertip-stabilizer strobing beacon which though mounted outside of this, all aluminum, airplane managed to leak into my radio and hence my headset - ironically through the units own ground-despite all attempts to trap it out. I finally got rid of it and put back in the old motor driven, rotating beacon. As for you automobile, they can be disabled by triggering an EMP under the engine as the car drives over it. The car radio gets it signal from outside through the antenna. Other than ONSTAR and other GPS applications there's nothing much to worry about.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:28:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:12:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:53:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:46:43 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>>Eleanor, James, >>>>I'll defer to the physicists on this List, but my >>>>understanding is that an automobile behaves in a way similar to >>>>a Faraday Cage. Of relevance, perhaps, in looking at cases where >>>>it's claimed people have been abducted from vehicles? >>>A quick test of an enclosure to test its 'faraday-cage-ness' >>>is to see if a cell phone works inside it. Car windows >>>disqualify cars as Faraday cages. >>A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see >>a grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >>insulators. >Hi Don: >Right you are, and I'll add that a F.C. needs complete coverage >too. One study of RF fields containment opines that if a F.C. >(cable shielding in this case) is water-tight, its probably RF >tight as well. >Car windows are probably invisible to radio waves, passing thru >them like light does. If so, the windshield alone could give >plenty of exposure to people sitting up front. Maybe those tin- >foil hats should have a grounding wire attached to the metal >dashboard. Hi Larry, I guess I should have read further down my list of emails. Your
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 UFO Photographed Over Cozumel Mexico From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:56:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:13:41 -0400 Subject: UFO Photographed Over Cozumel Mexico INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology June 20, 2005 Photo of the UFO photographed over Cozumel (Mexico), taken by Victor Hugo Barajano from a cruise ship on May 16, 2005 at 22:30 hours. The witness claims having a sequence of 16 photographs and this luminous object appeared to be following an airplane that landed at the local airport. Equipment used: Canon EOSS2-D Research conducted by Emilio Cetz of the S.I.R.I.O. group Translation (c) 2005 Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology Special thanks to Ana Luisa Cid [See Frank Warren's Blog for images:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:18:36 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:42:57 -0400 Subject: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End Issue 11 can be found at http://www.uforeview.net. Please select either of the two buttons at the top left hand side of the site, depending on whether you want it in a PDF file (approx 1.5kb) or a Word doc (just under 1KB). Because of expected heavy demand, I would ask that you consider right clicking and saving to your hard disc as well. -------------------------- It's a bit difficult to know how to start this but, put simply, Nick Redfern has a new book out called "Body Snatchers In The Desert" and in it, he offers without question the most plausible explanation offered so far about what occurred at Roswell. We were fortunate to be granted an exclusive (yes a scoop!) pre-publication interview with Nick and it is an exhaustive, thorough, long and very detailed run through, with additional pieces of information not found in the book. Because the interview is so long and of such great significance, it was decided to dedicate the whole of this issue to it. You will not have read this material anywhere else before. You may not read it in such depth afterwards. Nick's book is a quite brilliant piece of research and there can be little doubt left that he has finally nailed this case and that what we get here is a full explanation. If you have not heard anything about it before reading this then I will not spoil it for you by giving "it" away, but you need to prepare yourself for a mixture of emotions. The consequences of Nick's work have enormous implications for Ufology, simply immense, and a period of reappraisal will be needed. This is a significant moment in the history of this subject. Good luck. http://www.uforeview.net ---------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:22:32 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:45:27 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Ledger >Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona >http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html >Friday, June 17, 2005 >UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax >Video Report here: >http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 >By Scott Davis 3TV Producer >UFO hoax >It's the amazing, new UFO video that captured attention >worldwide and 3TV is the only broadcast medium in the world to >have the photographer, Brian Bessent, in the studio. >But is the video real? That's what we set out to discover. >"This was northwest toward the White Tank Mountains," Bessent >said. "I seen the light come on. I turned on my video camera >and started taping." >That may be one of the few pieces of his story to withstand >scrutiny. <snip> I think that now this one can be safely put to bed. At least it got a fair hearing and those in the field that have the necessary expertise, drove a stake through its hoaxed heart. It's too bad most UFO reports couldn't benefit from such a thorough examination by people expert at their jobs rather than the bias of the non-affected expert. We have to be on our toes and constantly vigilant because of the video programs available today. Having said that it must be noted that it takes some familiarity and expertize with these programs to create these hoaxs convincingly, meaning that not all videos are faked.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: UFO Photographed Over Cozumel Mexico - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:27:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:49:26 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Photographed Over Cozumel Mexico - Shell >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:56:58 -0400 >Subject: UFO Photographed Over Cozumel Mexico >The witness claims having a sequence of 16 photographs and this >luminous object appeared to be following an airplane that landed >at the local airport. >Equipment used: Canon EOSS2-D First of all, there is no such Canon camera model. Second, we would need to know the ISO setting used and the lens used. On looking at the one image, it looks like nothing but ordinary lens flare from a bright light. I'd guess from one of the lights on the airplane mentioned.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: UK FOIA Requests - Hale From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:47:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: UK FOIA Requests - Hale >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:00:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: UK FOIA Requests >Furthermore, if (for example) the person making the request >can't be bothered looking up the date (in a book or on the >Internet) of a well-known incident, or be bothered to correctly >spell the location of an incident, what are the odds of the MOD >being bothered to rectify the failings of the person making the >request? Good Day, As regards the above sentence, how helpful was the M.o.D when Serious researchers first approached them regarding the Rendelsham Forest Incident? Did they take a long time in answering any requests? Or did they stick their head in the sand for a while, hoping it would all blow away in the breeze?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Secrecy News -- 06/20/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:54:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:54:00 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/20/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 57 June 20, 2005 ** DSB: MILITARY MUST IMPROVE NUCLEAR SURVIVABILITY ** SCIENTISTS SPEAK UP FOR MIT'S POSTOL ** A PASSEL OF CRS REPORTS DSB: MILITARY MUST IMPROVE NUCLEAR SURVIVABILITY The U.S. military needs to improve its ability to operate in the aftermath of a nuclear explosive strike against U.S. forces or territory, the Defense Science Board (DSB) argued in a new study. "Despite the reduction of the threat of strategic nuclear exchange, it is becoming more, not less, likely that U.S. forces will have to operate in a nuclear environment in regional operations," the Pentagon advisory body wrote. "This is driven by the proliferation of nuclear weapon capabilities and the attractiveness of nuclear weapons as an offset to U.S. conventional superiority and as a counter to U.S. preemptive doctrine," according to the DSB report, released late last week. In addition to a grim, if vague, threat assessment, the DSB report provides unusually straightforward discussion of nuclear weapon effects. ("In realistic situations, some warhead components will shield the prompt radiations from other components, creating a large shadow cone in a preferential direction.") The report also provides an extensive account of nuclear weapon effects simulation facilities in the Departments of Defense and Energy, as well as a discussion of current survivability practices in each of the military services. ("The directives and instructions regarding nuclear survivability in the Navy are out of date.") See "Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Nuclear Weapon Effects, Test, Evaluation, and Simulation," April 2005 (132 pages, 2.2 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/nweffects.pdf SCIENTISTS SPEAK UP FOR MIT'S POSTOL The Massachusetts Institute of Technology should assert itself more vigorously on behalf of MIT professor Ted Postol in his continuing dispute with the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency (MDA) involving allegations of scientific fraud at an MIT laboratory, three senior scientists urged the university. The dispute has become a case study in the incompatibility between classified research and ordinary academic standards and practices. Resolution of the controversy has been stymied by MDA's insistence that all of the relevant documentation is classified and will not be made available to university investigators even if they hold a clearance. "We are concerned that ... MIT appears to have accepted MDA's edict as legitimate," wrote physicists Frank von Hippel, Richard L. Garwin and John Ahearne. "In our view, MDA's position that MIT has no need to know whether fraud is occurring in the research that it manages for the federal government is unacceptable and flies in the face of one of the fundamental rationales for having universities manage such research," they wrote. "We believe that MIT's position should simply be that it will not manage research whose integrity it is not allowed to verify." A copy of the May 31 letter from von Hippel, Garwin and Ahearne is here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/06/postol053105.pdf "I can assure you that MIT has consistently pursued, and continues to seek, an investigation of these allegations, including review of both the relevant classified and unclassified record," wrote MIT President Susan Hockfield in a brief reply on June 14: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/06/mit061405.pdf The exchange of letters was first reported in "MIT urged to press Pentagon on data" by Marcella Bombardieri, Boston Globe, June 18: http://tinyurl.com/9a7us A PASSEL OF CRS REPORTS Recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following. "The Middle East Peace Talks," updated June 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/IB91137.pdf "Iraq: U.S. Military Operations," updated May 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL31701.pdf "Port and Maritime Security: Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31733.pdf "Navy Ship Procurement: Alternative Funding Approaches-- Background and Options for Congress," updated May 11, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32776.pdf "Navy Ship Deployments: New Approaches -- Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21338.pdf "International Government-Procurement Obligations of the United States: An Overview," updated May 17, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32211.pdf "Iraq: Recent Developments in Reconstruction Assistance," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL31833.pdf "U.S. Direct Investment Abroad: Trends and Current Issues," updated April 29, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21118.pdf "China's Trade with the United States and the World," updated April 29, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31403.pdf "Ballistic Missile Defense: Historical Overview," April 22, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22120.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 20 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:36:05 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:56:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >From: Rob Kritkausky >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:08:27 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Diane Harrison >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Rob Kritkausky >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>I'm not debunking this video but I do have some questions about >>the light source as far as pixel blending is concerned. Even if >>you have a low res image of this video, if you look at the >>blending of colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program >>you will find definite black pixels spotted here and there >>within some areas of the UFOs light source. From years of >>looking at images digital and other I have acquired some >>understanding of pixels and blending. There appears to be >>something wrong with the colour blending of some pixels in this >>video. I may be wrong and if so can some one please explain to >>me why definite black pixels appear not to be blended with its >>closest neighboring colour which it should, showing a smoothing >>of colour blending which should show various shads of the >>neighboring colours. >While I did not have a chance to analyze this video as much as I >would have liked, I did examine Santiago, Scott and Jim's analysis >of this video. They did a good job and there is really no other >conclusion to arrive at other then Hoax. IMO Hi Rob Like I said I'm not a debunker and I keep an open mind. All I ask is, if the UFOs captured on the video camera was shoot "raw" then how did those black pixels appear spotted within the videos light areas?. >As for the "black pixel" problem you describe, I have a theory >as to how that would happen. I believe this would be the type of >thing you would see from layering an inferior CGI over the top >of a higher resolution video track. I have a program called Motion 2 its fantastic for animations you might be aware of it, so I understand what you're saying about layers. For those wanting to know more please feel free to go read at below link. http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/motion/animateeasily.html Another thing I noticed, Rob, when observing the green content in the footage and you might have notice this also. If you look at the cluster of 8 lights look very closely and you will notice a box shape area of green pixels, location bottom of center light which does not blend in and it should. Now for a what if light from the objects shone down on a trees and leaves then reflected this "might"? explain how the green colour got so close. However it does not explain why the colour green does not blend into the nearest neighboring colour, again we appear to have a problem with pixel blending. Now the colour green inside the UFO cluster got my attention as its very different to the green of the neighboring bushes and the green pixels within the black areas of the captured footage. Example: UFO Clusters green is: CYMK : C73% M47% Y100% K49% web colour #33481E = Bushes green is: CYMK : C69% M56% Y66% K49% web colour #3B423B Okay I'll stop here as I'm more than willing to listen to anyone's expert explanations as to why this pixel problem appears to have happened to raw footage. ? Rob, I have attached a small image in a private e-mail of the colour variations I've pointed out about so you can see the differences. I'm all hears? >Your experiment is a good way to help someone visualize how >Graphics/Video programs deal with digital resolution issues. >issues. Thank you Rob, you know digital analysis is a real pain the A!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:08:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:52:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:46:51 -0700 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:14:36 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:53:45 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >>>I'm not debunking this video but I do have some >>>questions about the light source as far as pixel >>>blending is concerned. Even if you have a low res >>>image of this video, if you look at the blending of >>>colours at 1600 percent zoom in your graphic program >>>you will find definite black pixels spotted here and >>>there within some areas of the UFOs light source. >>>Now, can some please explain why black boxes of >>>colour are in white areas? Shouldn't they be white-ish >>>in colour or even grey?. >>You are absolutely right in your findings Diane and this was one >>of the issues exposed by Dilettoso and co-investigator Ken >>Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film during the tv news >>special about this case. >>There are more evidences found by the experts that leaves no >>doubt the video was fabricated. By the way I would like to >>clarify that the footage analyzed was a digital copy made from >>the original by KTVK-TV News, not from an MPEG video taken from >>the Internet as, incredibly, these UFO Theatre people and >>followers are trying to imply in retaliation now that Bessent's >>world is falling apart. >>As advice, be careful of their messages, Brian Bessent and >>accomplices are now using profane language. >Hello Santiago: Two questions: >1) Without going thru the many posts about this video, what >was the precise date and time that Bessent claimed to have >taken it in Phoenix? Bessent reported June 5, 2005 as the date of the alleged sighting. He added the date along with his logo to the footage with computer graphics. This means he edited the video later. >2) Besides yourself, who should get the major credit for >exposing the hoax? Everyone involved in the research team must be credited for the investigation. Scott Davis Producer, KTVK-TV News crew, the ufologists, Jim Dilettoso and Ken Liljegren. Regarding exposing the hoax scientifically, definitely video analyst Jim Dilettoso from Village Labs, Phoenix and Ken Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film who performed an in-depth analysis on the video. The footage resulted Proof Negative. We know that any alleged UFO video, during an investigation, sooner or later will be required to be scientifically analyzed by professional experts as the final stage to establish it's authenticity. I belive that in this issue it was Brian Bessent himself who exposed his footage by changing his mind at the last minute even though he officially announced on national radio that he was going
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:40:28 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:02 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:18:36 +0100 (BST) >Subject: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The >End >Issue 11 can be found at http://www.uforeview.net. Please select >either of the two buttons at the top left hand side of the site, >depending on whether you want it in a PDF file (approx 1.5kb) >or >a Word doc (just under 1KB). Because of expected heavy demand, I >would ask that you consider right clicking and saving to your >hard disc as well. -------------------------- >It's a bit difficult to know how to start this but, put simply, >Nick Redfern has a new book out called "Body Snatchers In >The >Desert" and in it, he offers without question the most plausible >explanation offered so far about what occurred at Roswell. We >were fortunate to be granted an exclusive (yes a scoop!) >pre-publication interview with Nick and it is an exhaustive, >thorough, long and very detailed run through, with additional >pieces of information not found in the book. Because the >interview is so long and of such great significance, it was >decided to dedicate the whole of this issue to it. You will not >have read this material anywhere else before. You may not >read >it in such depth afterwards. >Nick's book is a quite brilliant piece of research and there can >be little doubt left that he has finally nailed this case and >that what we get here is a full explanation. If you have not >heard anything about it before reading this then I will not >spoil it for you by giving "it" away, but you need to prepare >yourself for a mixture of emotions. The consequences of Nick's >work have enormous implications for Ufology, simply immense, >and >a period of reappraisal will be needed. >This is a significant moment in the history of this subject. >Good luck. >http://www.uforeview.net Y'know, I can't discount all of the information laid out by Nick Redfern. Reason being I'd heard of such experiments years ago and recall as a kid in the 60's the various care given to deformed and mentally-ill children. I grew up round several enormous psychiatric centers and medical centers and a lot more 'laboratories'. I wouldn't put it past the U.S. to have engaged in such experiments. Nick's article also references to the Horten Brothers and their flying wing technologies, which I pointed out years ago, and am now quite knowledgeable of their history and am fortunate to know not only 'the' experts on the Hortens but sent Walter Horten a 'get well' card several years ago. So if there's any grit to Nick's account the fellows I know will say yea or nay and I for one will bank on their decision. Nick's story has lots going for it but lots more unexplained. I don't think people are still sending deformed prisoners into the stratosphere for experiments anymore. I can't wait for the feedback on this book, it ought to be the best time yet!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:38:28 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:58:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Yturria >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:39:18 +1000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona <snip> >Hi Terry and List >You might find this article interesting: >CNET News.com >http://news.com.com/2100-1038_3-1024234.html >July 9, 2003 >Google Cache Raises Copyright Concerns <By Stefanie Olsen >Staff Writer There it is. Important information you found Diane. I just hope this CNET Article will help to reconcile all our criterias.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:03:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:18:36 +0100 (BST) >Subject: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >It's a bit difficult to know how to start this but, put simply, >Nick Redfern has a new book out called "Body Snatchers In The >Desert" and in it, he offers without question the most plausible >explanation offered so far about what occurred at Roswell. This is the most interesting and extraordinary reconstruction of the Roswell event that I have read in a long time, possibly ever. It will not, of course, be "The End" - one assumes that silly characterization to be no more than gaseous editorial hyperbole - but, more likely, "The Beginning" of a new discussion and debate which, one hopes, will move a long- stalemated controversy forward. Sometime ago I came to the conclusion that no explanation proposed for the Roswell event really worked. Both crashed ETs and secret Mogul experiments remained unproved and riddled with problems. (I was amused to note how many pelicanists and ufologists rushed to embrace the latter, meanwhile lecturing those who didn't agree with them on _their_ alleged credulity.) It seemed to me, in any case, that what remained was a national- security secret, unrelated to ETs or the flying discs or aerial monitoring of Soviet atomic tests, that even half a century later (when Mogul was brought out to float on AF hot air) continued to be too explosive to confess to. This new interpretation certainly fits. I look forward to reading Mr. Redfern's new book and to seeing his evidence laid out in full. Until I know more, I will reserve judgment and watch with great interest the debates that ensue from here on in. If Redfern is right, however, the story is a huge one, deserving of major attention in mainstream media
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: The Phoenix UFO Recreation Video - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:21:51 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:13:22 -0400 Subject: Re: The Phoenix UFO Recreation Video - Yturria Dear Friends, I'm sending you this new link to the recreation video made by Wahrheit from Germany of the Phoenix Video. The old link given by me don't work anymore because the webpage of the French researcher received so many hits at the same time yerterday the server excedeed its bandwidth and the file was removed by the server's manager. Sorry for the inconvenience. This time I strongly suggest you download the video first - Right click your mouse and then select Save target As - instead of streaming video. Quicktime format, 27 MB. http://www.evox.com.mx/google_new_mirror/ The recreation is under the title: The Virtual Recreation Of The Same UFO Video at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:08:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:15:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Reynolds >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:22:32 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona >http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html >>Friday, June 17, 2005 >>UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax >>Video Report here: >>http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 >>By Scott Davis 3TV Producer >>UFO hoax ><snip> >I think that now this one can be safely put to bed. At least it >got a fair hearing and those in the field that have the necessary >expertise, drove a stake through its hoaxed heart. It's too bad >most UFO reports couldn't benefit from such a thorough >examination by people expert at their jobs rather than the bias >of the non-affected expert. >We have to be on our toes and constantly vigilant because of the >video programs available today. Having said that it must be noted >that it takes some familiarity and expertize with these programs >to create these hoaxs convincingly, meaning that not all videos >are faked. Don:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:18:36 +0100 (BST) >Subject: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >Issue 11 can be found at http://www.uforeview.net. Please select >either of the two buttons at the top left hand side of the site, >depending on whether you want it in a PDF file (approx 1.5kb) or >a Word doc (just under 1KB). Because of expected heavy demand, I >would ask that you consider right clicking and saving to your >hard disc as well. > -------------------------- >It's a bit difficult to know how to start this but, put simply, >Nick Redfern has a new book out called "Body Snatchers In The >Desert" and in it, he offers without question the most plausible >explanation offered so far about what occurred at Roswell. We >were fortunate to be granted an exclusive (yes a scoop!) >pre-publication interview with Nick and it is an exhaustive, >thorough, long and very detailed run through, with additional >pieces of information not found in the book. Because the >interview is so long and of such great significance, it was >decided to dedicate the whole of this issue to it. You will not >have read this material anywhere else before. You may not read >it in such depth afterwards. >Nick's book is a quite brilliant piece of research and there can >be little doubt left that he has finally nailed this case and >that what we get here is a full explanation. If you have not >heard anything about it before reading this then I will not >spoil it for you by giving "it" away, but you need to prepare >yourself for a mixture of emotions. The consequences of Nick's >work have enormous implications for Ufology, simply immense, and >a period of reappraisal will be needed. >This is a significant moment in the history of this subject. >Good luck. I did read the first half of the above interview, after which I gave up and am not going further. You say of Nick Redfern that "there can be little doubt left that he has finally nailed this case" etc. Little doubt? You must be kidding. Nick has done nothing of the kind. He has merely stoked up further controversy by offering a solution that is about as incredible as the one it seeks to replace. Also, I assume the "much maligned author" you are referring to who discovered the broader part of the story in 1990 is John Keel. Why can you not name him? Oh yes, Nick will be much in demand for a short while, for interviews and so on. But probably not for long. His story will soon fade away and ultimately be added to the Roswell folklore. Roswell has been on a life support machine for some years now. If Nick hopes he will resuscitate it by this 'new' solution I fear he is very mistaken. In the eyes of the true Roswell believers he would have been well advised to turn the machine off. The supposed Home Office involvement in British UFO cases that he refers to is in Tim Good's "Above Top Secret" p.118, consisting of two short paragraphs. It says nothing about "somebody in the 50s who was visited by Home Office personnel", but merely quotes remarks by an anonymous former police inspector whom Tim met in 1982 about some directive from the HO on UFO sightings made by policemen. Nor does Tim refer to crashed satellites or saucers in these paragraphs. I am sure Nick Pope will have something to say about this alleged Home Office involvement in UFO investigations! It makes his own post at the MOD largely redundant. I am not going to offer a detailed refutation To Nick Redfern's ideas. There may be someone out there who will, but after all this time I very much doubt it. A final thought: where are all those documents that undoubtedly exist concerning these early post-war Japanese balloon/aircraft experiments, especially those that refer to the human bodies found in New Mexico and elsewhere? There must be numerous filing cabinets full of them. Wasn't the GAO supposed to locate all these in 1995 in their official searches for Roswell related documents? Were all the papers mysteriously destroyed perhaps? Nick told me some while ago that he had abandoned his former pro-ET ideas and was working on some hot new stuff. Now we see the results.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:16:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:23:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona - Hatch >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:08:43 +0000 >Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:46:51 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:14:36 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Very Strange UFO Footage From Arizona >>>There are more evidences found by the experts that leaves no >>>doubt the video was fabricated. By the way I would like to >>>clarify that the footage analyzed was a digital copy made from >>>the original by KTVK-TV News, not from an MPEG video taken from >>>the Internet as, incredibly, these UFO Theatre people and >>>followers are trying to imply in retaliation now that Bessent's >>>world is falling apart. >>>As advice, be careful of their messages, Brian Bessent and >>>accomplices are now using profane language. >>Hello Santiago: Two questions: >>1) Without going thru the many posts about this video, what >>was the precise date and time that Bessent claimed to have taken >>it in Phoenix? >Bessent reported June 5, 2005 as the date of the alleged sighting. He added the date along with his logo to the footage with computer graphics. This means he edited the video later. >>2) Besides yourself, who should get the major credit for >>exposing the hoax? >Everyone involved in the research team must be credited for the >investigation. Scott Davis Producer, KTVK-TV News crew, the >ufologists, Jim Dilettoso and Ken Liljegren. >Regarding exposing the hoax scientifically, definitely video >analyst Jim Dilettoso from Village Labs, Phoenix and Ken >Liljegren from Spectrum Video and Film who performed an in-depth >analysis on the video. The footage resulted Proof Negative. >We know that any alleged UFO video, during an investigation, >sooner or later will be required to be scientifically analyzed >by professional experts as the final stage to establish it's >authenticity. >I belive that in this issue it was Brian Bessent himself who >exposed his footage by changing his mind at the last minute even >though he officially announced on national radio that he was >going to submit the footage for analysis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:44:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:57:16 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:40:28 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >Nick's article also references to the Horten Brothers and their >flying wing technologies, which I pointed out years ago, and am >now quite knowledgeable of their history and am fortunate to >know not only 'the' experts on the Hortens but sent Walter >Horten a 'get well' card several years ago. So if there's any >grit to Nick's account the fellows I know will say yea or nay >and I for one will bank on their decision. Greg It will indeed be interesting to see what they say re. the Horten device. For people who haven't read the book yet, the sources told me that plans were found in the hands of the Japanese for aircraft that were Horten-inspired/based on, rather than built by the Hortens themselves. To quote the sources: "According to the Colonel, the file he read referred to the crashes, in May and July 1947, of two prototype aircraft that were based upon the highly advanced and novel flying wing designs of German aviation geniuses Reimar and Walter Horten." Similarly from the book: "The Colonel also stated that copies of at least some of the Japanese blueprints of the 'really advanced aircraft and gliders' that played a role in the construction of the aircraft flown at White Sands, were found along with the V-2 document cache hidden in the Harz Mountains, Germany..." This would seem to suggest that these were again - Horten inspired, with the Germans and Japanese working on projects that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:07:12 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Groff >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:08:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:22:32 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>>Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona >>http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html >>>Friday, June 17, 2005 >>>UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax >>>Video Report here: >>>http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 >>>By Scott Davis 3TV Producer >>>UFO hoax >><snip> >>I think that now this one can be safely put to bed. At least it >>got a fair hearing and those in the field that have the necessary >>expertise, drove a stake through its hoaxed heart. It's too bad >>most UFO reports couldn't benefit from such a thorough >>examination by people expert at their jobs rather than the bias >>of the non-affected expert. >>We have to be on our toes and constantly vigilant because of the >>video programs available today. Having said that it must be noted >>that it takes some familiarity and expertize with these programs >>to create these hoaxs convincingly, meaning that not all videos >>are faked. >Don: >Just remember that it was a media outlet that uncovered the >hoax, not anyone in the UFO community. Rich, It was not just a media outlet but it was also ufologists Santiago Yturria Garza, Jim Dilettoso and Ken Liljegren.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:47:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:08:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >I look forward to reading Mr. Redfern's new book and to seeing >his evidence laid out in full. Until I know more, I will >reserve judgment and watch with great interest the debates that >ensue from here on in. If Redfern is right, however, the story >is a huge one, deserving of major attention in mainstream media >and of Congressional and other investigations. It will be >fascinating to see where all this goes from here. Jerry and List,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 1995 Post To UpDates BBS - Roswell & 731 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:27:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:27:30 -0400 Subject: 1995 Post To UpDates BBS - Roswell & 731 Sue K. sent this copy of a post of hers to the predecessor of this List - the UFO UpDates BBS, here in Toronto. BBS line-numbers deleted. ebk ----- From: <suek.nul> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:39:01 -0400 Subject: My Post 1995 re. Ros & 731 --- August 25, 1995 Post a message in UFO General & NetSpeak? [y/N]: yes ooo Mesg To : All ooo Subject : Roswell vs. Unit 731 UFO UpDates v2.1b SmartEditor - Use /? for Editing Help - Maximum of 1600 Lines I happened to catch and tape a show on Dateline (NBC) last week on a subject that was disturbing not only to those interviewed but to myself. It focused on a 50 year secret held by the US government on a place called Unit 731 during WWII. Human experimentation (biological warfare, live autopsies, injections, etc.) were carried out on prisoners of war. These prisoners were British and Americans and what they described seemed parallel to that of good old Adolph. We have seen what Hitler's prisoners looked like but do we really know to what extent these lives were interferred with? Unit 731 was run by the Japanese and in the report the US government was accessory to the savage indignities to these innocent victims. They gave immunity to the leaders of these inhumane acts and actually hired some of them to work in the US to conduct experiments. Oh, what a Cold, Cold War indeed. My feelings in relation to the Roswell film and Unit 731 are they are one report, there are crucial documents that have gone missing for reasons unknown, the Chinese stated they had already seen the footage from from the Roswell film (when), injuries to the being on the footage are extraordinarily similar to those on the creature used in the movie - Roswell (Martin Sheen) which came out _last_ year. A weather balloon the government claimed - I think perhaps, but maybe one the Japanese had sent over carrying a possible biological threat to the US which the Dateline show reported was an ongoing event in the 40's (termites infected with typhoid aimed at California). As Stephen Shiff stated on Larry King, the extent of military intervention leaves suspicion that this was not _just_ a weather balloon. Russians were aiding Unit 731 also. In 'The FBI' (Kessler) it is noted that the Russians were in the habit of sending spy balloons over the US (made of material other than that used for normal weather balloons). Perhaps the symbols identified on 'wreckage of the craft' were highly unusual to a farmer from the 40's. I am sure Russian and Japanese were not languages every good old down-to-earth American farmer could identify. I think that last 50 years have been a game of hide and seek, and right now I think the US is it. As all things eventually come to light, the truth is easier to take in the beginning. Why waste everyone's time playing these little charades. If you're doing something 'not everyone' will approve of, well that's life. Admit your mistakes and move on to create a better world rather than have everyone breathing down each other's throats and creating insanity. Unfortunately some people thrive on creating nonsense because they know '50% of the people will believe and and 50% will not'. But which 50% is right? This is no way to exist. We want the truth and we want it now!!! This is really starting to piss me off. If this is the American way, thank God I'm Canadian. Hey, maybe I'm a government experiment too. Maybe it's all a planetary conspiracy. (Yeah right, I know get a life. Can you please tell me which intersection to turn at so I can go and get one.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:41:31 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >Nick has done nothing of the kind. He has merely stoked up >further controversy by offering a solution that is about as >incredible as the one it seeks to replace. Yes it is incredible - and disturbing too, which is why - right now - I am engaged in deep discussions to get this looked at an official level, because of the controversial nature of the claims. Here's the important part: a lot of people in the official world won't touch the UFO subject because of the stigma (so Roswell never gets resolved by influential people who could maybe make a difference); but they will take a look at claims of human abuse etc., which this certainly is. So that's why I'm hoping this will open new doors and lay the thing to rest. >Oh yes, Nick will be much in demand for a short while, for >interviews and so on. But probably not for long. His story will >soon fade away and ultimately be added to the Roswell folklore. As above, I'm hoping that the people on the inside I'm working with will open this up and receive official confirmation. If not, you are unfortunately right: it will just add to the controversy of what did or did not happen. Coincidentally, I was speaking with a guy yesterday who said that Roswell was becoming like the Jack the Ripper mystery - so many books, so many theories, and it's all so long ago that unless something definitive comes along, the various proponents will have their views and it will never get resolved. Personally, I have no doubt that the only way this will get resolved is if there is an official push - as I said, which I am hoping based upon what is going on behind the scenes alreday - to locate files, etc. >Roswell has been on a life support machine for some years now. >If Nick hopes he will resuscitate it by this 'new' solution I >fear he is very mistaken. In the eyes of the true Roswell >believers he would have been well advised to turn the machine >off. Hope to revive Roswell? I have no interest in reviving anything, CDA. I do, however, have an interest in seeing the guilty suffer, if vindication for all this surfaces at an official level. My aim is not to revive Roswell but to provide answeres and lay it to rest so we can move on! >The supposed Home Office involvement in British UFO cases that >he refers to is in Tim Good's "Above Top Secret" p.118, >consisting of two short paragraphs. It says nothing about >"somebody in the 50s who was visited by Home Office personnel", >but merely quotes remarks by an anonymous former police >inspector whom Tim met in 1982 about some directive from the HO >on UFO sightings made by policemen. Nor does Tim refer to >crashed satellites or saucers in these paragraphs. No he doesn't refer to crashed satellites - as I mentioned in the interview that came via a leaked document that was the subject of a lengthy article which I wrote for the London Daily Express back in 2001. For interested people, I can mail photocopies of the article, which quotes the document at length. Good also talks in his books about a friend of his visited by HO personnel re a UFO event, not just the police guy - that was 60s not 50s. >I am sure Nick Pope will have something to say about this >alleged Home Office involvement in UFO investigations! It makes >his own post at the MOD largely redundant. >I am not going to offer a detailed refutation To Nick Redfern's >ideas. There may be someone out there who will, but after all >this time I very much doubt it. >A final thought: where are all those documents that undoubtedly >exist concerning these early post-war Japanese balloon/aircraft >experiments, especially those that refer to the human bodies >found in New Mexico and elsewhere? There must be numerous >filing cabinets full of them. Wasn't the GAO supposed to >locate all these in 1995 in their official searches for Roswell >related documents? Were all the papers mysteriously destroyed >perhaps? You're kidding right, re. finding files? Don't be so naive. Again in the book it's made clear that decades ago files were indeed shredded to hide this story and protect the guilty. Remember, we are not talking about crucially important files on crashed UFOs and dead aliens that would have to be preserved. We are just talking about gliders and balloons and when the experiments were terminated and the military moved on to research with jet engines, ICBMs etc., this was all seen as a series of highly controversial tests that failed and that were canceled and people scrambled to protect themselves by destroying evidence - illegally. As one of the interviewees told me, it may well be that today all we have is "old men with old memories" and - literally - nothing more. As I told Stuart Miller too, ironically, it may be that today - if all of this was successfully hidden and documents were destroyed years ago - the US Government doesn't actually have a straight story on what really happened. Plus, the GAO was looking for files relative to Roswell. It's made quite clear in the book that some of the events that were reportedly related to all this and that led to the legend of Roswell and stories of "bodies in the desert" occurred at White Sands and elsewhere nearby from May 47 to Aug 47 and not strictly on the Foster Ranch. Roswell was one part of this overall 3 to 4 month op. That was simply the one case that got out to the public of about 6 or 7 experiments. Also, remember that while the GAO didn't find documents, they did find the exact opposite - missing documents from Roswell from the time. >Nick told me some while ago that he had abandoned his former >pro-ET ideas and was working on some hot new stuff. Now we see >the results. >Nice try Nick, but it aint going to work. Not going to work? I have no vested interest in making anything "work" beyond getting this story out to the press, to the UFO research community and to the people, on the inside, that can blow it wide open and have the guilty made to answer - if any of them are still alive 60 years on. You would be surprised to know how deep this all runs and how it ties in with certain official players in the Bennewitz fiasco (and interestingly, Mogul) who are already sweating because of their complicity in hiding all this too, and having knowledge of it. Good, let them sweat for a while. They deserve it - and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:32:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:48:20 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >A final thought: where are all those documents that undoubtedly >exist concerning these early post-war Japanese balloon/aircraft >experiments, especially those that refer to the human bodies >found in New Mexico and elsewhere? There must be numerous >filing cabinets full of them. Wasn't the GAO supposed to >locate all these in 1995 in their official searches for Roswell >related documents? Were all the papers mysteriously destroyed >perhaps? Bear in mind, CDA, that 8 years ago Popular Mechanics ran a big article that said they had learned of something very similar and that documents were possibly going to surface that would confirm the Japanese link, the advanced balloon link, the Horten-like device and more. That never happened; however, what is important is that I'm not the only one saying that. Fate Magazine ran a letter a few years ago from a guy named Ekstrand who said he had been told that Roswell involved a glider and that this involved the 82nd Airborne, who, the sources in my book also state, were involved in one such experiment re. towing a prototype Horten style glider into the air at White Sands. So strands of this do exist elsewhere - albeit at a fragmentary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:47 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >Here's the important part: a lot of people in the official world >won't touch the UFO subject because of the stigma (so Roswell >never gets resolved by influential people who could maybe make a >difference); but they will take a look at claims of human abuse >etc., which this certainly is. So that's why I'm hoping this >will open new doors and lay the thing to rest. I'm sure that official miscreants figured out a long time ago that they could get by with just about anything if they covered it with UFOs. Debunkers love Roswell for its utility as a club with which to beat ufologists presumptuous enough to be curious about the event, and responses like Christopher Allan's are entirely predictable. The pelicanist flock, after all, has a polemical fortune invested in the premise that Roswell is about nothing at all - except, naturally, whatever intellectual crimes, real or imagined, ufologists can usefully be accused of for the heresy of paying it puzzled heed. Don't let them discourage you, Nick - well, I'm sure you won't. Maybe, if we're lucky, the truth about what happened that summer long ago will at last emerge - just after I'd come to the sad conclusion that we wouldn't know in our lifetimes. Best of luck to you. If you're right, it's not just truth that's at the heart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Unit 731 Info Links From: The Norm <norm.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:06:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:56:24 -0400 Subject: Unit 731 Info Links A Google search on "Unit 731" produced these items (and others) ----- A Preliminary Review Of Studies Of Japanese Biological Warfare And Unit 731 In The United States http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/731rev.htm Unit 731: A Half Century Of Denial http://www.technologyartist.com/unit_731/ Of Men and Mice Unit 731 http://roswell.fortunecity.com/skulls/37/unit731.htm Unit 731: History And New Evidence http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMU731.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Ryenolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:09:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:58:37 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Ryenolds >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:32:09 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End ><snip> >Bear in mind...that 8 years ago Popular Mechanics ran a big >article that said they had learned of something very similar and >that documents were possibly going to surface that would confirm >the Japanese link, the advanced balloon link, the Horten-like >device and more. >That never happened; however, what is important is that I'm not >the only one saying that. >Fate Magazine ran a letter a few years ago from a guy named >Ekstrand who said he had been told that Roswell involved a >glider and that this involved the 82nd Airborne, who, the >sources in my book also state, were involved in one such >experiment re. towing a prototype Horten style glider into the >air at White Sands. >So strands of this do exist elsewhere - albeit at a fragmentary >level. And Nick: Anyone who takes the time to research the Harvard-kept archives for NASA (just the period 1945 to 1950), they'll find a plethora of secret balloon and craft tests in New Mexico (the Roswell area) by the Navy and Army particularly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:25:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:07:19 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Lehmberg >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:08:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:22:32 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>>Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona >>http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html >>>Friday, June 17, 2005 >>>UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax >>>Video Report here: >>>http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 >>>By Scott Davis 3TV Producer >>>UFO hoax >><snip> >>I think that now this one can be safely put to bed. At least it >>got a fair hearing and those in the field that have the necessary >>expertise, drove a stake through its hoaxed heart. It's too bad >>most UFO reports couldn't benefit from such a thorough >>examination by people expert at their jobs rather than the bias >>of the non-affected expert. >>We have to be on our toes and constantly vigilant because of the >>video programs available today. Having said that it must be noted >>that it takes some familiarity and expertize with these programs >>to create these hoaxs convincingly, meaning that not all videos >>are faked. >Don: >Just remember that it was a media outlet that uncovered the >hoax, not anyone in the UFO community. >Rich Reynolds Nonsense - there were others involved with that activity. Some of those I think you would have readily discredited as charlatans and scalawags, if they'd made the opposite assessment. You are not the de facto standard for the media outlet you pretend to be... and don't think that that has _not_ been noticed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:26:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:09:06 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax - Ledger >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:08:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:22:32 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UFO Video Thought Hoax >>>Source: KTVK-TV Channel 3 - Phoenix, Arizona >>http://www.azfamily.com/ontv/teased/stories/KTVKExtra20050617.1ca0e0fc.html >>>Friday, June 17, 2005 >>>UFO Video Thought To Be Hoax >>>Video Report here: >>>http://tinyurl.com/bo8h8 >>>By Scott Davis 3TV Producer >>>UFO hoax >><snip> >>I think that now this one can be safely put to bed. At least it >>got a fair hearing and those in the field that have the necessary >>expertise, drove a stake through its hoaxed heart. It's too bad >>most UFO reports couldn't benefit from such a thorough >>examination by people expert at their jobs rather than the bias >>of the non-affected expert. >>We have to be on our toes and constantly vigilant because of the >>video programs available today. Having said that it must be noted >>that it takes some familiarity and expertize with these programs >>to create these hoaxs convincingly, meaning that not all videos >>are faked. >Don: >Just remember that it was a media outlet that uncovered the >hoax, not anyone in the UFO community. >Rich Reynolds
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:15 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:16:12 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:44:24 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:40:28 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - >>The End >>Nick's article also references to the Horten Brothers and their >>flying wing technologies, which I pointed out years ago, and >>am >>now quite knowledgeable of their history and am fortunate to >>know not only 'the' experts on the Hortens but sent Walter >>Horten a 'get well' card several years ago. So if there's any >>grit to Nick's account the fellows I know will say yea or nay >>and I for one will bank on their decision. >Greg >It will indeed be interesting to see what they say re. the >Horten device. For people who haven't read the book yet, the >sources told me that plans were found in the hands of the >Japanese for aircraft that were Horten-inspired/based on, >rather >than built by the Hortens themselves. >To quote the sources: >"According to the Colonel, the file he read referred to the >crashes, in May and July 1947, of two prototype aircraft that >were based upon the highly advanced and novel flying wing >designs of German aviation geniuses Reimar and Walter >Horten." >Similarly from the book: >"The Colonel also stated that copies of at least some of the >Japanese blueprints of the 'really advanced aircraft and >gliders' that played a role in the construction of the aircraft >flown at White Sands, were found along with the V-2 document >cache hidden in the Harz Mountains, Germany..." >This would seem to suggest that these were again - Horten >inspired, with the Germans and Japanese working on projects >that >were allied to each other, but that had their own teams as well. >Nick R. Hi Nick, Yes, I do know the experts and can assure you anything Horten related they'll scour for, as it's their passion. The Hortens were another of those unsung innovators. Had Hitler listened to his experts and followed through with the BWB (blended wing body) designs and low aspect ratio designs he would have had long range bombers decades ahead of their time, but being the drug addicted knucklehead he was, he was stuck on the idea of fighter aircraft nonsense from WWI. We were just that close to losing. Here's a surprise for you. Ironically one of the top Operation Paperclip men is the father of a very famous author and friend of mine. My friend is also an excellent Ufologist who also practically opened the door for the new age of paranormal investigation. You would freak out to find out whom he is. He told me about Operation Paperclip when the files had been declassified on that particular aspect of the operation several years ago. He had no idea his dad was there. Any data gleaned went through his dad's hands and I've forwarded your data to them and will chat with them soon. The fans of the Horten's and the flying wing technologies, going back to Alexander Lippisch as well, are tops in our aerospace industries and computers. I've come to respect them as they brook no foolishness when it comes to accuracy in the sciences. They're also goodeggs, who sacrifice themselves to better our society. From the seas to the far reaches of space you'll find these men working and studying and teaching. They just don't cotton much to UFO stuff for obvious reasons. Your timeline for flying-wing events/Hortens is surprisingly right on! Close, very close with no breathing room but I can at a distance see the windows of opportunity. As for the 'mutants' there's no telling what manifested itself after the A-bombs dropped as we never know what can become of the various genetic anomalies. Look at what happened after the Chernobyl blast. The mutations go from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some so horrid most people can't look at them without fainting. There was a "60 Minutes" episode that showed a few and that was enough to cause people to faint. The abuse of mentally handicapped is legendary. We know not only other governments but our own has conducted evil experiments on people and in some areas of the world sinister forces still do. I had heard years ago that one of the explanations for crashed bodies were indeed, as you've pointed out, were children used in high-tech experiments, and that the military and scientists did refer to them as 'dummies', hence the crack made in the "Roswell: Case Closed" tome about 'crash test dummies'. If true and the public found out there would be heck to pay. We'll be buying your book and reading with earnestness, as I for one am happy you've brought this viewpoint up. Each book or lecture or report is valuable in the pursuit of the truth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:40:11 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:20:24 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Miller >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:39 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:18:36 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: UFO Review Issue 11 Special Edition Roswell - The End <snip> >Also, I assume the "much maligned author" you are referring to >who discovered the broader part of the story in 1990 is John >Keel. Why can you not name him? Hello Christopher, If you had read to the very end, you would have seen a section devoted to previous attempts to tell the story. Keel is named and acknowledged as being the first to come up with it and I also reprint the cover of the particular issue of Fate. I didn't name him at the beginning, although of course many, like you, would have known who I was referring to, because to be perfectly honest, I am well aware of the effect the words "Fugo Balloon" has on many people and I didn't want folk to "switch off" because of it The Popular Mechanics article is reprinted in full and acknowledgemnet is also given to the official "Mogul" effort and Captain Neil McAndrew's attempt as well. I think McAndrew actually knew the truth although I can't prove that. I think that was as far as the air force were prepared to go with it at that time and were then basically saying to the Ufological community, "We've practically told you. Now do some work and get it sorted out yourself." You really have to question why two government published documents on the subject appeared so close together. On another tack, Nick's book poses an enormous number of questions. To start with, it would appear after all that governments _can't_ keep secrets. It also raises the whistleblower topic, not from the perspective of Nick's sources but from Frank Kauffman's testimony. A lot of that was of course rubbish, but now, some of it also appears to have been possibly correct. What does that do for Michael Salla's position for example? There is also plenty of potential here for internecine fighting which could either be utterly fatal for us or, just good ol' fun. Who amongst us on this List for instance can no longer be taken at face value? There will be, of course, a very broad range of reaction to the interview and book, from those who think it's absolute rubbish to those who are devastated by it. To the latter in particular,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:23:41 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Debunkers love Roswell for its utility as a club with which to >beat ufologists presumptuous enough to be curious about the >event, and responses like Christopher Allan's are entirely >predictable. The pelicanist flock, after all, has a polemical >fortune invested in the premise that Roswell is about nothing at >all - except, naturally, whatever intellectual crimes, real or >imagined, ufologists can usefully be accused of for the heresy >of paying it puzzled heed. I agree: I suspect that the reason why the Mogul scenario was so readily accepted by the media and by numerous UFO skeptics was because: (a) it basically said there was no UFO at Roswell (which sits well with their smug, "told-you-so" attitudes); and (b) maybe more importantly, the Mogul explanation didn't make the Government look bad. And so many of the skeptics, I've noted, love to cozy up to the official line. And as so much of today's media is about spin-doctoring and simply regurgitating press releases issued by Govt. bodies instead of actually doing their own investigations, Mogul was embraced. Although I cannot prove it, I wouldn't be at all surprised if even among the skeptical community there weren't those secretly mystified and astounded that the Govt would have the nerve to introduce the crash-test-dummies, who didn't even "fly" until the 50s! But, of course, so many of the skeptics don't want to rock the Government boat, so they didn't ask the awkward questions of officialdom - that was left to the UFO research community, who are then mocked or ignored by a Media that thinks it knows better... because it's the Media and for no other reason. >Don't let them discourage you, Nick - well, I'm sure you won't. >Maybe, if we're lucky, the truth about what happened that summer >long ago will at last emerge - just after I'd come to the sad >conclusion that we wouldn't know in our lifetimes. Best of luck >to you. If you're right, it's not just truth that's at the heart >of this, but even more important, a measure of justice, late >surely but not, fortunately, never. >Jerry Clark They certainly won't discourage me - I am pushing this all the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:07:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:28:07 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:09:03 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >And Nick: >Anyone who takes the time to research the Harvard-kept archives >for NASA (just the period 1945 to 1950), they'll find a plethora >of secret balloon and craft tests in New Mexico (the Roswell >area) by the Navy and Army particularly. >Some strange things were going on from Holloman and the Naval >Research Division (et cetera). Indeed Rich. Since writing the book I've spoken with more people (upwards of 20 now) who know all about this weirdness with classified balloon launches with people on board, including a woman who worked at Los Alamos in 44 to 49 at the time and who now lives in Colorado. She absolutely freaked out when I tracked her down. And actually had her son-in-law think he could try and threaten me. No chance. But it does demonstrate the intense fear that is generated by some of the people involved in these 40s balloon tests of a more controversial nature than Mogul (such as high- altitude exposure tests, etc.). And this woman wasn't even involved - just learned of it from colleagues, so again it demonstrates how tough it can be to get some of this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:14:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:00:13 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Lehmberg >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>Here's the important part: a lot of people in the official world >>won't touch the UFO subject because of the stigma (so Roswell >>never gets resolved by influential people who could maybe make a >>difference); but they will take a look at claims of human abuse >>etc., which this certainly is. So that's why I'm hoping this >>will open new doors and lay the thing to rest. >I'm sure that official miscreants figured out a long time ago >that they could get by with just about anything if they covered >it with UFOs. >Debunkers love Roswell for its utility as a club with which to >beat ufologists presumptuous enough to be curious about the >event, and responses like Christopher Allan's are entirely >predictable. The pelicanist flock, after all, has a polemical >fortune invested in the premise that Roswell is about nothing at >all - except, naturally, whatever intellectual crimes, real or >imagined, ufologists can usefully be accused of for the heresy >of paying it puzzled heed. And I have to add that this is a tried and true mechanism for the reflexively reactionary skeptibunky/pelicanist/post- pelicanist who can employ it to intimate discredit for the most _solid_ of cases... and so very very fallaciously put to discredit the rest of the best cases. It's what they do. Roswell is great for this because the line of credulity has been so smeared and smudged with the activities of these ardent denialists that it becomes increasing easier to sow doubt (_All_ they have to do!!)... and so provoke disinterest in those who should be the _most_ interested! This is the facilitator of our inability to perform the investigation that you and Mr. Hall and Mr. Friedman, et sig al, have been crying out for decades. Right? And all of this to fallaciously keep the level of ufological debate at some ...starting point... of plausible deniability? Why do we remotely tolerate this? >Don't let them discourage you, Nick - well, I'm sure you won't. I think that's a safe bet... all's he has to do is consider the source. Would our Mr. Redfern prefer to soar with the eagles or blow bubbles in shallow puddles with the mud skippers? >Maybe, if we're lucky, the truth about what happened that summer >long ago will at last emerge - just after I'd come to the sad >conclusion that we wouldn't know in our lifetimes. May be. But as you've already paraphrased, Sir... the jury is still way, way out. As you're one of the guys actually let into the courtroom I know we can count on you sharing on out what's happening in it from time to time. <g> >Best of luck Really! Soar and cleave Mr. Redfern. You would leave behind you what others still have before them, Sir, I suspect! >If you're right, it's not just truth that's at the heart >of this, but even more important, a measure of justice, late >surely but not, fortunately, never.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 25 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:36:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:05:05 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 25 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 25 June 22, 2002 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ LUMINOUS UFO APPEARS IN NORTHERN TERRITORY A luminous UFO appeared two nights in a row in Australia's Northern Territory. "Chris Peacock didn't believe in UFOs--until he saw one two nights in a row." "The retired bricklayer was star-gazing while he tried to get back to sleep at 3 a.m. Monday," June 13, 2005. "Instead he was watching the light until daybreak." "'I looked at the stars, and then one of them looked like it moved,' he said." "Mr. Peacock, 53, woke his wife and showed her the object." "His 20-year-old daughter also saw it while she was getting ready to go to work." "He said it appeared in the sky south of his CDB apartment, over Mindil Beach and East Point" in the Northern Territory. "'I'd always heard about UFOs and never believed in them,' Mr. Peacock said, 'I know it wasn't a plane or helicopter--it was doing things you know mankind cannot do.'" "Peacock said the object centered its apparently random movements around the sky until almost dawn, when it disappeared." "He dismissed it as a strange phenomenon until he saw it again yesterday morning," Tuesday, June 14, 2005. "'Whenever I have woken, it's been there,' he said, 'You would think someone else would've spotted it.'" "Mr. Peacock said he hoped more people would come forward if they had seen the object." "'I didn't know what to believe except that you have to see it for yourself,' he said." "The Territory is well-known for its UFO sightings-- Wycliffe Well roadhouse, 380 kilometers (288 miles) north of Alice Springs on the Stuart Highway, once reached fifth in the world in a study of UFO incidents." "In April (2005), tourists took photos of an object flashing brightly as it crossed the night sky in central Australia." "Experts were unable to identify the object, but it could have been a satellite burning up as it reentered Earth's atmosphere." (See the Australian newspaper Herald-Sun for June 15, 2005, "Territory man sees UFOs." Many thanks to Mobtek for this newspaper article.) DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED IN OBERGRIESBACH, GERMANY On Saturday, May 28, 2005, at 7:30 p.m., Frank Buckelmann, 41, and his 14-year-old son were walking in the woods near their home in Obergriesbach, Germany when they spotted a strange object approaching from the west. "On this evening, me and my 14-year-old son took a walk in the woods near our home," Frank reported, "After passing the trees, we looked down the hill into the valley where the village was lit by the slowly disappearing red sun. We were facing south and, suddenly, a rapidly-moving object passed by. Although it seemed to have moved incredibly fast, me and my son saw it clearly. It looked like a cookie or maybe a dish but not quite as round- shaped. On top of it was a bright light. I guess it was a reflection of the setting sun, although it was nearly dark." "Since the object was very fast and brightly lit, I could not observe exact details about the surface of the object." "As far as I remember, it emitted no sound. All I heard was a gentle buzzing but not as high-frequency as the roar of a jet engine. But this may have been similar to a car or a motorbike. My son heard it, too, but he also cannot definitely state what emitted that noise." "As we realized that the object would quickly leave our field of view, we ran around a group of trees to look in the easterly direction. But we were not fast enough. I only saw the object becoming smaller and smaller as it moved away. My son did not see it leaving at all." "On the way back to our house, we talked about it and repeatedly took a look back into the sky in case the object would come back. But we did not notice anything unusual." "The next morning (Sunday, May 29, 2005), we called the local newspaper and gave an interview about our observations. I hope I can find other people in this region who noticed the object, too." "My son thinks it flew very low, but I think it was just fast. Very glittery, like silver. It looked like it was falling or zigzagging through the sky." Frank's interview appeared in the Augsburger Allgemeine Zeitung for May 30, 2005. (Email Form Report) NIGHT SAUCER SEEN IN REDMOND, OREGON On Sunday, June 5, 2005, at 1 a.m., the witness was asleep at her home in Redmond, Oregon (population 13,481), a small city about 200 miles (320 kilometers) southeast of Portland, when she heard a strange noise coming from outside her bedroom window. "As I as sleeping peacefully Sunday morning, I started to hear a singing voice outside my window," the witness reported, "So I got up and took my dog outside with me. Then a big gust of wind blew into my face. The sound, I realized, had become much louder." "As I looked up and gazed into the sky, I saw a flashing light. Looking closer, I saw the spinning disc beneath it. From what I saw, that's a freaking UFO." "The skies were clear, with clouds at around 1,000 feet (300 meters). The UFO dashed away to the east, and I lost sight of it." (Email Form Report) (Editor's Comment: Saucers were active in the USA's Pacific Northwest that weekend. Read on...) SAUCER CAUGHT ON WEBCAM IN KELSO, WASHINGTON On Monday, June 6, 2005, eyewitness T.G. decided to catch some video footage of her 12-year-old daughter singing with her Web cam. T.G. recorded three minutes of video. But when she played it back the next day, she got the shock of her life. There was a silvery saucer in the background. "We live up here in Kelso, Washington (state). There's no question that I have real footage," T.G. reported, "I was using my Webcam and recording my daughter singing. I did not look at it until the next day. It was very frightening and disturbing. I have not let my 12- year-old daughter know about it because I do not want this object to harm her. I fear my recording will fall into the wrong hands." "It was a cone-shaped object, with a black-colored band around the middle. The video recording lasts for three minutes." Kelso, Wash. (population 11,985) is on Route 4 approximately 64 miles (106 kilometers) south of Olympia, the state capital. KENTUCKY TRUCKER CONFIRMS SIGHTING "The UFO reported in Hammond, Louisiana on May 28 (2005) by Shannon Brewer was spotted at close range by myself on (Sunday) April 10, 2005 at approximately 11:03 p.m. outside Bowling Green, Kentucky," truck driver Earl Shelby reported, "I saw the entire craft at a range of 150 feet (45 meters) above my head as I was looking into a farmer's field some 500 feet (150 meters) away." "The shape of the craft was more or less triangular," he added, "There was one light, luminescent orange, on the bottom, and another, sun-yellow, on the top. No windows or openings. The approximate length was 25 feet (8 meters) by 10 to 12 feet (3 to 4 meters). The craft was definitely on a landing approach to the field, which was to the rear of my parked truck." "As the craft passed over my truck, it started to sparkle and make strange crackling noises, and then it disappeared into the field behind some trees." Bowling Green, Ky. (population 49,296) is on Interstate Highway I-65 and Highway 231, the William H. Natcher Parkway, located approximately 116 miles (186 kilometers) southwest of Louisville. (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS UFOs SEEN THREE TIMES IN ONTARIO On Thursday, June 9, 2005, at 9:45 p.m., Cate Grober was outdoors at her home in Gooderham, Ontario, Canada when she suddenly saw "a ball of golden light moving at a moderate speed really high up. At first I thought it was a shooting star. No way, though. It was too big and too slow. I had it in sight for one minute. The craft came from the north and went east." Imagine Cate's surprise when another UFO stopped by two hours later. On Friday, June 10, 2005, at 12:15 a.m., she reported, "I saw a large glowing ball of golden light high up. It was moving and stopping behind some very tall pine trees. It flew from the south to the west. I watched it for two to three minutes, then it zipped away--no trail, just gone." But the UFOs had one last call to make in that part of Ontario. On Monday, June 13, 2005, at 1:20 a.m., she reported, "I saw something high in the sky. Two glowing golden balls moving side by side at the same rate of speed. They were very, very slow. This time I had them in view for five minutes. They both came from the west and returned to the west. (Email Form Report) MORE CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN UK Sunday, June 12, 2005 was a red-letter day for crop circles in UK. New formations were reported in Oxfordshire and Wilshire. On that Sunday, a large formation appeared at Southend, near Garsington, Oxfordshire, consisting of "six eye shapes on top of each other. The formation was approximately 22 meters (65 feet) in diameter. The central section was about 9 meters (30 feet) in diameter. Each track was two feet (60 centimeters) wide." The same Sunday, "a new formation was reported in Clatford Bottom, near Marlborough, Wilshire. This new formation appeared in the field opposite the Devil's Den dolmen, which was the location of a 1999 crop circle. It looked like three sunbursts in a circular arrangement." (Many thanks to Robert Fischer for this news report.) CATTLE MUTILATION REPORTED IN ALBERTA "He stops short of pointing the finger at aliens, but Ray Riguidel swears what he saw in his pasture last Friday evening," June 3, 2005, "couldn't have been done by any known humans or animals." "Riguidel, 68, has been farming near Paradise Hill," near Lloydminster, Alberta province, Canada "his entire life. During that time he's lost his share of cattle under various circumstances, but the 10-year-old cow he saw last weekend was far different from the rest." "The udder was gone, one eye and one ear had been removed, and the sex organs were torn away. The remaining 50 or so cattle in the pasture had congregated as far away from the corpse as possible. There were no tire tracks or footprints. There were no signs of a struggle." "Perhaps most bizarre, however, was the glaring lack of blood despite the numerous and carefully crafted incisions into the carcass." "'When you see a cow go down, you go look, but I didn't have to look twice. There was a guy with me, and we both popped our eyes.'" "'I've heard about (cattle) mutilations before, but it never really sunk in,' he said, 'But it's sunk in now. It's real.'" "Cow mutilations are a relatively recent phenomenon, with the earliest documented cases dating back to the mid- 1900s. While cows have been the main target, less frequent victims have included deer, elk, horses, lambs and dogs." "In some cases, UFO sightings have been reported near the mutilation sites. And even though skeptics may scoff at these extraterrestrial accounts, no surveillance team has ever come up with any rational explanation for what took place." "After talking to a friend, Riguidel was encouraged to call Fernand Belzill, a rancher from St. Paul, Alberta who's been investigating mutilations for the past eight years." "'The reason I get so much publicity is that I'm the only (mutilation investigator) in Canada,' said Belzill, 'I'm the type of guy you don't ask what's new, because I could probably bore you for an hour or two.'" "Belzill visited Riguidel's farm last Sunday," June 5, 2005, and, based on his initial observations, he thinks the mutilation is authentic, meaning not the work of predators or a known hoax." "'I guess I believe in UFOs, but I'd like to see one first,' Belzill said, 'We're naive to believe we're alone in the universe. But I guess that's just my opinion.'" "George Larre, another rancher about 32 kilometers (20 miles) south of Riguidel's farm, had a similar mutilation take place about five years ago. While the scene itself was gruesome enough, he said the behaviour of the other animals in the area was equally disconcerting." "'The first thing I noticed was--her calf wasn't there. None of the cattle were there. They all went to the far end of the pasture and didn't come back for ten days to two weeks,' said Larre, 59." Lloydminster is on Provincial Highway 16 approximately 135 miles (216 kilometers) east of Edmonton. (See the Lloydminster, Alta. Meridian-Booster for June 13, 2005. Many thanks to Robert Fischer for this newspaper article.) MUTILATED HORSE FOUND IN SANTA ROSA, ARGENTINA "A mutilated horse was discovered at the Parque Raceway, on the outskirts of Santa Rosa, the capital of" central Argentina's La Pampa province. The horse had been missing for 15 days. Santa Rosa has been the site of intense UFO activity for the past year. "The horse showed signs of missing its tongue and left ear. An arch-shaped incision was present on its left wither, along with a rather smaller one on its abdomen and still another in the anus." "The absence of anterior and posterior lymph nodes was also discovered, with incisions in the animal's fetlocks." Researchers noted "similarities between this case and the one detected in the La Arana Wilderness Area, where the absence of large pieces of (horse) hide on one side of the animal was discovered." (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Raul Oscar Chavez para estas noticias.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Phoenix Footage From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:33:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:07:26 -0400 Subject: Phoenix Footage With all the back and forth that has been taking place between those supporting and those opposing the authenticity of the Phoenix Footage, I have sent an e-mail offer to Bessent to have his original video examined. Bessent posted to his website: "We are trying to get the original video to as many video pros as we can find so we can get some word on it. Anyone who is intrested in checking it out is welcome to it just pm me with your info and we will take care of it." At this point, I am not taking any side in this debate and will not, until a thorough examination of the original media has been completed by a competent and qualified analyst. If and when I hear back from Bessent, I will post updates to my dedicated Phoenix Footage page at: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/arizonaufo.html and to the List.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:54:30 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:11:13 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Ledger >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:09 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>Best of luck to you. If you're right, it's not just truth >>that's at the heart of this, but even more important, a measure >>of justice, late surely but not, fortunately, never. >>Jerry Clark >They certainly won't discourage me - I am pushing this all the >way. Doors on the inside are starting to open very quickly now. Hi Nick, I suspect that there are those privy to the information you seek who will now scramble to be the first to disassociate themselves from the mess while throwing the blame and thereby the excrement onto their fellow practicioners to avoid the bad publicity. They of course will wish immunity from the lethal end of your pen and will "plea" bargin. Sometimes, those really in the know and the most guilty - though you have no way of knowing this at the time - are the first to roll over on their subordinates and once having gotten the "plea bargin" then have effectively restricted your information. The subordinates might talk and even offer up the "big fish" but you prommised not to implicate this fish and are restricted to hearsay and lower level information. It's a sticky game.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:55:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:13:50 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:40:11 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >I think >that was as far as the air force were prepared to go with it at >that time and were then basically saying to the Ufological >community, "We've practically told you. Now do some work and get >it sorted out yourself." You really have to question why two >government published documents on the subject appeared so close >together. Although he later denied that he had even talked to me, McAndrew did, in fact, tell me that he had seen official archives film similar to Ray Santilli's AA footage. He made the mistake of mentioning his conversations with me to Phil Klass, who called him on it, when he later denied having talked to me. Old Phil does have his uses! I think you may be right that McAndrew knows the truth, but was scared to say so, and was given a nice promotion as a thank you for keeping mum.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 21 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:32:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:44:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:55:42 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Although he later denied that he had even talked to me, McAndrew >did, in fact, tell me that he had seen official archives film >similar to Ray Santilli's AA footage. He made the mistake of >mentioning his conversations with me to Phil Klass, who called >him on it, when he later denied having talked to me. Old Phil >does have his uses! >I think you may be right that McAndrew knows the truth, but was >scared to say so, and was given a nice promotion as a thank you >for keeping mum. >Of course, just what that truth is... I think we're still a long >way from knowing. I agree, Bob, re. the problems of knowing exactly what the full truth is. As an example, each of the interviewees had their own unique bits of the story/stories told from their own perspectives and it was a case of trying to piece it all together in one coherent fashion. If they had all said exactly the same thing - parrot fashion - I would have been highly suspicious and that would have implied some sort of official 'coaching'. That wasn't the case, so I do believe that these people are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:35:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:04:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:54:30 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:09 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>>Best of luck to you. If you're right, it's not just truth >>>that's at the heart of this, but even more important, a measure >>>of justice, late surely but not, fortunately, never. >>>Jerry Clark >>They certainly won't discourage me - I am pushing this all the >>way. Doors on the inside are starting to open very quickly now. >Hi Nick, >I suspect that there are those privy to the information you seek >who will now scramble to be the first to disassociate themselves >from the mess while throwing the blame and thereby the excrement >onto their fellow practicioners to avoid the bad publicity. >They of course will wish immunity from the lethal end of your >pen and will "plea" bargin. Sometimes, those really in the know >and the most guilty - though you have no way of knowing this at >the time - are the first to roll over on their subordinates and >once having gotten the "plea bargin" then have effectively >restricted your information. >The subordinates might talk and even offer up the "big fish" but >you prommised not to implicate this fish and are restricted to >hearsay and lower level information. It's a sticky game. Hi Don We'll see what happens. But the fact that I now have people pushing on the inside to see where this will lead is encouraging. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if right now people on the inside with knowledge and maybe complicity are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: Unit 731 Info Links - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:36:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:07:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Unit 731 Info Links - Aldrich >From: The Norm <norm.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:06:08 -0400 >Subject: Unit 731 Info Links >A Google search on "Unit 731" produced these items (and others) >----- >A Preliminary Review Of Studies Of Japanese Biological Warfare >And Unit 731 In The United States >http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/731rev.htm >Unit 731: A Half Century Of Denial >http://www.technologyartist.com/unit_731/ >Of Men and Mice Unit 731 >http://roswell.fortunecity.com/skulls/37/unit731.htm >Unit 731: History And New Evidence >http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMU731.html >Unit 731 >http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html#unit731 It's all very nice to say this is new stuff, but it isn't. Years ago, going through Top Secret Air Force messages at the National Archives, I found messages referring to this Japanese biological warfare and human experimentation. From the locations of some of the facilities, it was obvious that they fell into Soviet hands. The message I made copies of indicated that certain Japanese scientists were targets of investigations of the Japanese program. A number were refusing to cooperate unless they were granted immunity. Even further back I had read about biological warfare and human experimentation in open source material. This is not something hidden for 50 years, however, sensational and conspiratorial that seems. In my Project 1947 research, I read a number of accounts of Japanese tried before US Military tribunals for various abuses of prisoners of war. However, the despite objections from the chief Australian jurist, no war crimes investigations were aimed at the Emperor, and the amusing myth that he was just a figure- head was put forth. Failure to act against Unit 731 pales in comparison with failure to act against the author of the whole war. If one reads "Victor's Justice," one can see that only one War Crimes Trail of most culpable was held and from a legal stand point was deeply flawed. So actually many, many were left out of paying for their crimes as was also the case in Europe. All claims of mistreatment of American prisoners was fore- closed by Act of Congress, not just biological and human experiments. There are still veterans today who want to pursue actions against their captors or the in the cases were they were force to labor for Japanese industrial companies, against these firms, however, the treaty with Japan does not allow it. The first article above is written by a Chinese with obvious slanted toward Peking. It is interesting that he brings out the old accusation of germ warfare during the Korean War and "confessions" by capture American airmen. I have seen a number of Chicom films purporting to document such attacks. To say the least they are laughable. The best one was Chicom soldiers dumping out a canister of various bugs and spiders which are seen scurrying about in the snow. This is the proof. Please note that the Communists world wide were constantly in the early 1950s accusing any US flight near or over a Communist country as involved in the dropping of Colorado beetles. Again the proof was....?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:45:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:10:18 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:15 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >As for the 'mutants' there's no telling what manifested itself >after the A-bombs dropped as we never know what can become of >the various genetic anomalies. Look at what happened after the >Chernobyl blast. The mutations go from one end of the spectrum >to the other. Some so horrid most people can't look at them >without fainting. There was a "60 Minutes" episode that showed a >few and that was enough to cause people to faint. Greg, The interviewees (and this is one of the reason I consider them credible) specifically directed me to a number of very hard to find files in a variety of archives, including one from 1947, talking about how research had been undertaken in summer 47 on 54 test-subjects, some dwarfs, several with Progeria - a condition that results in a small body, enlarged bald head and occasionally 6 fingers. Very Alien Autopsy film-like. I'm not saying the film is genuine... but... do a Google on Alien Autopsy Film + Progeria and you'll find quite a bit of comment. And it's intriguing that these people were specifically able to direct me to finding these officially declassified files on radiation experiments undertaken on people with Progeria in summer 47. If the film is nothing but an outright fake, that's a pretty intriguing coincidence that files on Progeria sufferers and radiation experiments should exist from the time frame that the film was supposedly made and that shows a body with similar symptoms. Notably, the files, re. the above, were sent to Oak Ridge and shared with the nuclear aircraft people there and their biology lab - where one of the book sources worked... Also, there are US newspapers widely available from 1945 that talk about how the US knew that the Japanese were planning to attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that would have advanced gondolas beneath them that would be manned by "death defying Japanese" who were going to use bacteriological warfare on the US. Somewhere, these files must exist to have allowed the newspapers to get this data. Someone may know a way in to get these 45 files re the post-Fugo balloons and the "death defying Japanese," all of which is the early days of what led up to the New Mexico events.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:13:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:11:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:32:37 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >That wasn't the case, so I do believe that these people are >really working from memory and recalling their knowledge of >these events and cover-stories. <snip> I just ordered the book, Nick, and will look forward to reading
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Harney From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:13:19 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Harney >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Here's the important part: a lot of people in the official world >won't touch the UFO subject because of the stigma (so Roswell >never gets resolved by influential people who could maybe make a >difference); but they will take a look at claims of human abuse >etc., which this certainly is. So that's why I'm hoping this >will open new doors and lay the thing to rest. And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off to Wright-Patterson AFB. If mainstream ufologists had adopted an objective approach from the beginning, firmly disowning the cranks and fantasists, no doubt the whole matter would have been cleared up years ago. For officialdom and serious scientists to get involved in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:08:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:15:56 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:32:37 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:55:42 -0400 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Although he later denied that he had even talked to me, McAndrew >>did, in fact, tell me that he had seen official archives film >>similar to Ray Santilli's AA footage. He made the mistake of >>mentioning his conversations with me to Phil Klass, who called >>him on it, when he later denied having talked to me. Old Phil >>does have his uses! >>I think you may be right that McAndrew knows the truth, but was >>scared to say so, and was given a nice promotion as a thank you >>for keeping mum. >>Of course, just what that truth is... I think we're still a long >>way from knowing. >I agree, Bob, re. the problems of knowing exactly what the full >truth is. Nick, I think you have problems knowing what any truth is. >As an example, each of the interviewees had their own >unique bits of the story/stories told from their own >perspectives and it was a case of trying to piece it all >together in one coherent fashion. So isn't that what an investigation is all about? I think you've failed to show anything "coherent". >If they had all said exactly the same thing - parrot fashion - I >would have been highly suspicious and that would have implied >some sort of official 'coaching'. I'd be suspicious that there wasn't a "coherent" story. >That wasn't the case, so I do believe that these people are >really working from memory and recalling their knowledge of >these events and cover-stories. And what exactly is the "coherent" story you've pulled together? All I read are disjointed ramblings. Just what exactly is your narrative concerning the AA. How does that fit into your picture. Have you even viewed the AA? I suspect not. If you had, you might have noticed that no matter how retarded or how congenitally deformed, or how abused and Japanese the victims you imagined were, they would have all shown an umbilicus and tits. The creature in the AA doesn't seem to have either. There's something else I'd like to ask, now that I have your attention. I read your interview very carefully and I can see by your responses that you have never read a word that I have written on the AA. But several months ago, Ryan Woods wrote me and asked if I'd like to present at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas this November. He obviously didn't have a clue about who I was or my research into the AA. He said he contacted me because you had recommended me. You don't know me and you haven't read my research, so why did you suggest me? Of course now I'll have to decline the offer; and I also plan to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:48:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:17:17 -0400 Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? - Smith >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:01:13 -0400 >Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? >Some say it was a stunt, using as-yet-classified holographic >projection. >I heard one caller to a radio show say that he saw this >technology in use at a cosmetics trade show and it was stunning. >Our members (in the high tech harassment target community) >also report apparent holographic projections of things like a >non-moving person standing on a nearby roof, which then >disappears instantly. I think in principle it would be possible to project a pretty complex 2D image onto a cloud layer (or chemtrail!) using a laser or two, although hiding the beam would be a problem. Holographs are another issue. How can the member judge the holographic nature of a non-moving person on a roof from a distance? Should be pretty much 2D. Why couldn't the person really still be there, but a "simple" invisibility screen activated (as we have seen done recently)? >It's still unclear if what is referred to as "NASA's Project >Bluebeam", allegedly for developing this technology, is >responsible. Can you find any supporting documents backing up the absurd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:53:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:18:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Smith >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:13:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see a >>grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >>insulators. >Not really. Electronic equipment makes use of all sizes and >shapes of faraday cages to shield and isolate different stages >of electronic equipment from interfering with each other, >radiating, or picking up environmental electromagnetic signals >not intended. I think the whole issue is whether the car acts enough like a Faraday cage so as to block being abducted. It is clear that it is not good enough. I did some field research with my portable radio in my car and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:18:31 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:20:52 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:54:30 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:09 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:40 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>>Best of luck to you. If you're right, it's not just truth >>>that's at the heart of this, but even more important, a >>>measure of justice, late surely but not, fortunately, never. >>They certainly won't discourage me - I am pushing this all the >>way. Doors on the inside are starting to open very quickly >>now. >I suspect that there are those privy to the information you seek >who will now scramble to be the first to disassociate themselves >from the mess while throwing the blame and thereby the >excrement >onto their fellow practicioners to avoid the bad publicity. >They of course will wish immunity from the lethal end of your >pen and will "plea" bargin. Sometimes, those really in the know >and the most guilty - though you have no way of knowing this at >the time - are the first to roll over on their subordinates and >once having gotten the "plea bargin" then have effectively >restricted your information. >The subordinates might talk and even offer up the "big fish" but >you prommised not to implicate this fish and are restricted to >hearsay and lower level information. It's a sticky game. Well said Don Ledger! As I stated in my reply to Nick, I've heard this explanation before and had heard of deformed/retarded/mutations of some sort used in experimentation regarding the Roswell incidents. Now that Nick has provided an abundance of informaton it won't take long to crack. Witnesses are still around as I have at least 10 or 12 here in the states I'm waiting to hear from. Now there are also witnesses in Japan and in China and in Korea! Like the Soviets captured some Nazi scientists, China and S.Korea did with Japanese scientists and soldiers. Many Japanese scientists and engineers ended up here too. Best to call up good ol' Norio Hayakawa and ask him to dig around for data as well. All Nick needs to prove his case are two or more credible witnesses and a body. It won't invalidate all UFO crash and body recovery stories but it could reopen a time in our history where ghoulish experiments may have been conducted. I don't think Nick's account will run long without resolution as I also have 'the' man who is 'the' expert on the abuse of prisoners, citizens, military by medical and psychiatric institutions both government and private. He's a UFO expert as well and if the proof exists that corroborates Nick, he has it or can get it fast.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UK FOIA Requests - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:18:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:28:23 -0400 Subject: Re: UK FOIA Requests - McGonagle >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:00:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: UK FOIA Requests >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:51:10 +0100 >>Subject: UK FOIA Requests <snip> >Hi Joe, >I wonder if the latter missive you saw was from the same chap >who considered that "any UFO enthusiast would treasure [his >correspondence with the Ministry] for the rest of his life" and >advised the Ministry of Defence that he had had repeated contact >with aliens, very similar to us in appearance. The letter stated >all of these aliens had been female, "I suppose they use females >because they are far less conspicuous than would be males". The >letter also stated "I pride myself in knowing that I have learnt >to pick them out from other people. In fact, in the very >unlikely event of war with these people, I would be very >useful". Fortunately, these aliens are "very respectable people >and very clean". (Public Record Office File Reference AIR >2/18871, document E108 dated 7th October 1972). The reference you provided relates to another, similar post to the one which I was talking about, but it was written by the same person. If I come across the letter I was referring to, I will make a copy available to the list. If anyone is inclined to read the whole letter referred to by Isaac, I have uploaded it to the following links: http://tinyurl.com/dux54 http://tinyurl.com/cbv3r http://tinyurl.com/86nzt http://tinyurl.com/9hfte http://tinyurl.com/a2nmr The first 4 links are anonymised copies of the individual's (let's call him Mr. Smith) letter to the MoD, and the 5th link is the MoD's standard reply. These will be removed after a few weeks, but copies will be available from me directly on request after they have been taken off-line. I realise that I neglected to explain why I mentioned the letter concerned. I was using it as an example of the plethora of time- consuming and worthless posts which the unfortunate soul on the UFO desk was obliged to read and respond to. Mr. Smith became a frequent correspondent, and if I remember correctly was eventually classified as a "nuisance correspondent" which meant that the MoD were no longer obliged to reply to his letters. I think I came across in the order of 20-30 letters mostly in a similar vein from Mr. Smith. Although not quite as bad, many of the requests in the recent release at the MoD website were equally futile and it must have been extremely tedious to respond to each letter. In addition, there are probably a number of people writing letters like those by Mr. Smith, which also have to be read and responded to. It seems inhuman to me to expect an employee to have to carry out such mind-numbing work, but someone has got to do so. I don't blame Mr. Smith for his delusions, he can't help himself, but the authors of some of the FoIA requests should have either sought advice about how to construct an effective request, or known better in the first place. I hope that some of them read and employ the advice given by me and other researchers. <snip> >Furthermore, if (for example) the person making the request >can't be bothered looking up the date (in a book or on the >Internet) of a well-known incident, or be bothered to correctly >spell the location of an incident, what are the odds of the MOD >being bothered to rectify the failings of the person making the >request? It's probably not as clear-cut as you express above. Many people will have made requests without any real thought as to how they should be framed, or having sought out the information relating to the limits placed on the type of requests and their costs under the scheme. Other have real difficulty with language skills, and I respect and admire the fact that they didn't let their literal handicap discourage them from making a request. They ought to really have asked for some assistance from a trusted friend who could have checked their spelling and grammar before posting the request. Many people will have been caught up in a sense of excitement and anticipation initially and reacted spontaneously, hopefully they will continue to make requests but be better armed for the task now and consequently draw more relevant information from the MoD. I'm sure that the present incumbent of the UFO desk would appreciate having to read and respond to less dross.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:53:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:39:19 -0400 Subject: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure Some of you may recall that about 2 months ago I provided a sort-of review of Project Beta, and the new book, Exempt From Disclosure. Those of you who have read the new book, Exempt From Disclosure and those of you who haven't, will find Hawk Tales illuminating or exhilarating.... or perhaps even disappointing... but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 The Great British UFO Show June Newsletter From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:27:44 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:44:01 -0400 Subject: The Great British UFO Show June Newsletter ----- From: UFO DATA <webmaster.nul> To: russ.nul Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: The Great British UFO Show June Newsletter Dear Friends, As we approach the middle of the year we are realising that October 1st is not that far away. We are fully prepared for our first Great British UFO Show and look forward to meeting each and every one of you there. One reason why we selected the venue was the fact that the concert room is fully equipped with permanently installed equipment. Audio, video and lighting and this been the case means we don�t have the worry of hiring unfamiliar equipment and trying to work out how it all goes together on the day. We think the whole event will be an enjoyable and social experience for newcomers and old hands alike. Some people might not be fully aware of all the speakers on our guest list, let me tell you I personally invited these speakers after long consultations with my colleagues. The criteria for selection was the fact that each guest has a very interesting story to tell, some are telling of their own very personal experiences whilst others are relating well researched case studies. These are people who have been known to me for many years but have not really had the exposure that either their work or stories deserve. Of course Philip is well known around the world with his BUFORA and Alien Autopsy connections but our other guests have worked hard on or lived with this subject for many years. By way of an introduction to our invited guests you might like to tune into �Talk UFO� this is our very own Internet Radio Station and broadcasting right now is a 90 minute discussion show with all of our guests giving a preview to what they will be presenting in Leeds. See link below. http://www.ufodata.co.uk/radio.htm The station is on the live365 network and you can listen via windows media or Real media players or you can download the free live365 player. The system is supported by adverts but if you like the set up and there are thousands of channels available you can pay a small monthly subscription and get an �ad free� system. To all those who have already purchased tickets, thank you, you will have received them a few days after your order was received here. If you want to purchase tickets for the event you can still pay by cheque to UFODATA and send it to: UFO DATA PO Box 280 Leeds LS26 1AN Please include the online order form or your full contact details or you can pay on line via pay pal See link below. http://www.ufodata.co.uk/conf.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:42:51 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:13:11 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Miller >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >And who is to blame for people in the official world not >wanting to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? >The ETH-inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd >speculations. <snip> John, I don't think that this is an appropriate time to be talking about blame and I think your remarks ill-become you. I'm not entirely convinced that your own personal record of writing on the subject would stand up to too much rigorous scrutiny either. I've had enormous pleasure from Ufology over the years and will continue to do so, regardless of what is left. It is a matter of perspective. If it transpires that a substantive part of the subject is nothing more than disinfo, then so be it. I had fun wrestling with it and will continue to explore and take an interest in whatever avenues and areas of interest that lay ahead. And just think John, if us believers hadn't existed over the last 60 years, just how vacuous and devoid of emotional contentment your life would have been. No feelings of moral superiority, no one to look down upon and pity, no one to patronise and giggle about behind their backs. You would have been emotionally bereft and might even have been forced into
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:48:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:16:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:45:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >If the film is nothing but an outright fake, that's a pretty >intriguing coincidence that files on Progeria sufferers and >radiation experiments should exist from the time frame that the >film was supposedly made and that shows a body with similar >symptoms. <snip> Sorry, Nick, but the bodies in the AA films are not even remotely like victims of Progeria. The things in the AA film are "buff", toned, have very well developed musculature, their eyeballs are several times the size of human eyeballs, their internal anatomy, while vertebrate, is not human, and there are many other differences. Polydactyly is NOT part of Progeria. None of the medical doctors who have viewed the AA film has suggested that what is seen is simpy humans suffering from Progeria. Neither are they radiation-induced mutants. I do not know exactly what they are, but the list of what they are not is very long. Resorting to a half-assed version of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Unit 731 In The News From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:06:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:25:25 -0400 Subject: Unit 731 In The News Source: http://news.google.com Posada Carriles and Klaus Barbie ZNet, MA - 1 hour ago ... The Japanese scientists at Unit 731 practised emergency surgical techniques on live ... Particularly in Japan and South Korea, former war criminals were allowed to... http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=8132 Remembering the other Holocaust Canon City Daily Record, CO - 13 hours ago The time has come for a similar memorial in Japan .... The infa- mous Unit 731 in China was one of many Japanese medical units charged with biological warfare... http://www.canoncitydailyrecord.com/Opinion-story.asp?ID=553 Remember also China�s Holocaust Loveland Herald Reporter, CO - 16 hours ago The time has come for a similar memorial in Japan .... The infamous Unit 731 in China was one of many Japanese medical units charged with biological warfare... http://www.lovelandfyi.com/opinion-story.asp?ID=1003 Toni Solo: US Co-Dependency On Terror Scoop.co.nz (press release), New Zealand - Jun 19, 2005 ...The Japanese scientists at Unit 731 practised emergency surgical techniques on live ... Particularly in Japan and South Korea, former war criminals were allowed to... http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0506/S00262.htm Survivor tells of unspeakable massacre horrors China Daily, China - Jun 7, 2005
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:57:27 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >to Wright-Patterson AFB. If mainstream ufologists had adopted an >objective approach from the beginning, firmly disowning the >cranks and fantasists, no doubt the whole matter would have been >cleared up years ago. This is rubbish. As John Harney ought to know, or pretends not to know, ufologists ignored Roswell and crashed saucers for most of UFO history. They did so because of the Scully hoax and because of a widely shared belief that no good evidence supported such claims. That changed in the late 1970s, when it became apparent that the Roswell episode did merit consideration and investigation. Those who investigated it agreed that something unexplained, something that official elements wanted very much to keep secret, had happened. Those who did not investigate preferred to ridicule from the sidelines. Claims about strange bodies were, as the rest of us know, not "absurd speculations" but the testimony of a number of witnesses - witnesses, one might add, the credibility of most of whom _even the Air Force publicly took seriously_. (That's to let alone the very real possibility that other, covert government elements were doing all in their power to encourage ET identifications of the bodies.) The AF even quoted eyewitness descriptions in an effort to provide an alternative theory of what the so-called bodies were (a theory, I might mention in passing though it is not the point here, that caused even hardened journalists to roar openly when it was declared at a June 24, 1997, press conference aired live on news television here in the U.S.). As the ufologists who took Roswell seriously are about to get due credit for staying on the case and seeing it to what may now be its extraordinary and significant conclusion, it is easy to understand why the pelicanists, afloat on the same hot air that carried their beloved Mogul balloons, are flapping wings and squawking in helpless fury. It is, however, funny to see militant skeptic John Harney as he lectures _others_ on their alleged failure to take an "objective approach." If Nick Redfern proves right, the many Roswell essays that have filled the pages of Magonia (Harney's magazine) are going to provide endless amusement to ufologists of the future.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 AA 'Film' Redux [was: UFO Review - Roswell - The From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:19:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:51 -0400 Subject: AA 'Film' Redux [was: UFO Review - Roswell - The >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:48:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:45:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>If the film is nothing but an outright fake, that's a pretty >>intriguing coincidence that files on Progeria sufferers and >>radiation experiments should exist from the time frame that the >>film was supposedly made and that shows a body with similar >>symptoms. ><snip> >Sorry, Nick, but the bodies in the AA films are not even >remotely like victims of Progeria. The things in the AA film are >"buff", toned, have very well developed musculature, their >eyeballs are several times the size of human eyeballs, their >internal anatomy, while vertebrate, is not human, and there are >many other differences. Polydactyly is NOT part of Progeria. >None of the medical doctors who have viewed the AA film has >suggested that what is seen is simpy humans suffering from >Progeria. >Neither are they radiation-induced mutants. >I do not know exactly what they are, but the list of what they >are not is very long. Resorting to a half-assed version of >biology just muddies the waters and does nothing to further the >cause of truth. Hi Bob, UFO Magazine (US) has completed a three part series on the AA 'film', written by Don Ecker, who I believe has been a rational skeptic in regard to that chapter of ufology. It is primarily based on an extensive interview that Don had with Robert Kiviat, who produced the original FOX, Alien Autopsy, Fact Or Fiction, and provides additional insight as to the behind the scenes negotiations regarding the 'film'. It was interesting to note that a survey by one group indicated that the AA 'film' generated approximately $30 (M) Million dollars in revenue, worldwide, and there may yet be additional interest in updating the story and making more. Kiviat apparently has enough material to produce a documentary that will "prove" that the entire AA 'film' episode was a hoax, but from what I can see in the short article it would appear that the lack of witness credibility remains the primary argument for it being hoaxed. I mention this because Redfern's new book (which I am also anxious to read) has raised the issue of the AA 'film' (at least here), and I'm sure it will spark further discussion among those who believe it holds some sort of key to the Roswell event. The third installment is coupled with a short article by Philip Mantle, who was one of the central figures in the research and release of this 'film', and he currently the co-author of a book that provides an update on the investigation into the 'film' and its source. Both Philip and Bob Shell were among the few researchers that had access to Ray Santilli, and along with Michael Hessemen in Germany, formed a core research group that attempted to validate the 'film'. These articles provide additional information regarding the AA 'film' and it's impact on ufology. Having been in contact with Philip, Bob and Michael during the 1996 to 1999 time period, I would also agree with Phlip Mantle's observation that the AA 'film' taught far more about ufologists and their beliefs than it did about 'alien visitation' or the Roswell incident. I can see that reaction to this new book by Nick Redfern is also
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:41:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:09:42 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:08:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Nick, >I think you have problems knowing what any truth is. And I'm supposed to care what you personally think about me, Ed? I don't. All I did was try to present the facts as provided to me and then put that material out there for people to see. If people agree, fine. If they don't agree, then that's why we have UFO UpDates - to debate it! But making comments specifically about me, like yours above, instead of just focusing on testimony/facts, etc., is foolish. >I think you've failed to show anything "coherent". >And what exactly is the "coherent" story you've pulled together? >All I read are disjointed ramblings. Ramblings? All the interviewees were to-the-point, clear and concise on what they said was the gist of the Roswell legend - human experimentation and classified, prototype aviation experiments. Believe me, I've spoken with enough fakers to know that when they have all the answers to every question, and when they are indeed full of it. But to have different aspects from different people who were in different places at different times, then that to me is a sign that there stories are genuine. And no one tried to pretend that they knew everything. >Just what exactly is your >narrative concerning the AA. How does that fit into your >picture. Have you even viewed the AA? I suspect not. Again, a foolish comment. Of course I've seen the AA - loads of times. In fact, when it surfaced in '95, on UK TV's Channel 4, I began digging into the story pretty deeply and shared some of my findings with Phil Mantle about the cameraman's potential identity. Maybe Phil is working this into his new book on AA? Ask him! >If you had, you might have noticed that no matter how retarded >or how congenitally deformed, or how abused and Japanese the >victims you imagined were, they would have all shown an >umbilicus and tits. The creature in the AA doesn't seem to have >either. Let me quote a section from an 1886 report of the Royal Medical and Chirurgical Society by the renowned English physician- surgeon Jonathan Hutchinson. Having examined a person with Progeria, he said: "He had no nipples, their sites being occupied by little patches of scar." >There's something else I'd like to ask, now that I have your >attention. I read your interview very carefully and I can see by >your responses that you have never read a word that I have >written on the AA. Actually, I have. I just disagree. >But several months ago, Ryan Woods wrote me and asked if I'd >like to present at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas >this November. >He obviously didn't have a clue about who I was or my research >into the AA. He said he contacted me because you had recommended >me. You don't know me and you haven't read my research, so why >did you suggest me? I suggested you for the gig because I have read your work and I believe that any of us doing research deserve to be heard, and I felt that it would be a good opportunity for you to reveal your research. You see, unlike a lot of people in Ufology, I believe in letting people have their say, even if I don't agree with them. If we only focused on our own beliefs - and those beliefs were wrong - the subject would go nowhere. You had a chance to reveal to a packed audience your conclusions. I guarantee they would have listened carefully to what you had to say. Now you've chosen not to speak for very odd reasons that seem to have more to do with me than they do with anything else - which is very bizarre! Are you frightened to be in the same room with me? Inquiring minds want to know! >Of course now I'll have to decline the offer; and I also plan to >stay away from Denney's. Good for you; stick with Subway sandwiches; they are much healthier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:37:24 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:18:31 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >All Nick needs to prove his case are two or more credible >witnesses and a body. It won't invalidate all UFO crash and body >recovery stories but it could reopen a time in our history where >ghoulish experiments may have been conducted. That's what I'm hoping - that it might bring some really key players in this out and crack it wide open. >I don't think Nick's account will run long without resolution as >I also have 'the' man who is 'the' expert on the abuse of >prisoners, citizens, military by medical and psychiatric >institutions both government and private. He's a UFO expert as >well and if the proof exists that corroborates Nick, he has it >or can get it fast. Again, this is what we need: people with insider info/contacts that can dig deep and more importantly, know where to dig. My only concern is the fact that all of the people I spoke with were unanimous that massive amounts of material on this story
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:56:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:47:51 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:48:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Sorry, Nick, but the bodies in the AA films are not even >remotely like victims of Progeria. The things in the AA film are >"buff", toned, have very well developed musculature, their >eyeballs are several times the size of human eyeballs, their >internal anatomy, while vertebrate, is not human, and there are >many other differences. Polydactyly is NOT part of Progeria. >None of the medical doctors who have viewed the AA film has >suggested that what is seen is simply humans suffering from >Progeria. Bob The point I was trying to stress is that if you do a Net search on Google on "Alien Autopsy+Progeria", you will find quite a bit about the controversy raised as to whether or not this body was one with Progeria or a similar condition. Whether people agree with the scenario is irrelevant, the fact is that people have addressed that question, which is/was my main point. And I still find it interesting that I found files - forwarded to the Nuclear Energy for Propulsion of Aircraft people at Oak Ridge and the Biology Division at Oak Ridge, no less - in 1947
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:21:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:55:58 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:45:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:15 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>As for the 'mutants' there's no telling what manifested itself >>after the A-bombs dropped as we never know what can become of >>the various genetic anomalies. Look at what happened after the >>Chernobyl blast. The mutations go from one end of the spectrum >>to the other. Some so horrid most people can't look at them >>without fainting. There was a "60 Minutes" episode that showed a >>few and that was enough to cause people to faint. <snip> >Notably, the files, re. the above, were sent to Oak Ridge and >shared with the nuclear aircraft people there and their biology >lab - where one of the book sources worked... >Also, there are US newspapers widely available from 1945 that >talk about how the US knew that the Japanese were planning to >attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that would have advanced >gondolas beneath them that would be manned by "death defying >Japanese" who were going to use bacteriological warfare on the >US. >Somewhere, these files must exist to have allowed the >newspapers to get this data. Someone may know a way in to get >these 45 files re the post-Fugo balloons and the "death defying >Japanese," all of which is the early days of what led up to the >New Mexico events. Hello Nick, and All I have begun to read you long interview, but I have stopped half way, having already a couple of questions and criticisms. Your story looks good as long as you don't read it with a very critical mind. I don't think we are going to wait long on this List before you get some strong reactions and critics. In the meantime, here are some preliminary reflexions of mine. First, the confusion in Roswell with a "flying saucer" seems just as unbelievable as for any other type of balloon. A balloon is a balloon, even a very big one. Or a fragment of it. The same remark applies to a small craft, either wooden or metallic, or to a fragment of it. And the same remark applies to the discovery of a human body, be it of a genetically ill person, and even badly damaged by a sinister experiment such as dropping him fom high altitude without protection. That is still very far from making an "alien" body! Another big problem with your story is when the DIA informer tells you that the AF intelligence favored UFO crashed stories, just in order to cover-up sinister experiments with japanese war prisoners. The sad fact is, there have been in the past, criminal experiments such as deadly irradiations, but they were finally made public! So, if there was such a story behing the alleged UFO crash at Roswell, it would have been so much easier to admit it, and then quickly turn the sad page, instead of publishing two fat, incredible books on balloons and parachute tests to try to "explain" Roswell. The fact is that the Air Force, far from promoting UFO crashes, has done all it could to deny them. BTW, The same goes for UFOs, and the argument that their belief was favored in order to protect secret planes. There may have been some actions of the like now and then, but it certainly does not square with the global, historical line of the military cover-up on UFOs. Another aspect difficult to believe it the testimony of the "lady from Oak Ridge" : what a fantastic tale, of those mutilated bodies brought to Oak Ridge, and later sent to Los Alamos and who knows where! Hard to believe, Nick. On the other hand, the stories you have been told are quite
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:39:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:59:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Warren >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:45:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:15 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >Also, there are US newspapers widely available from 1945 that >talk about how the US knew that the Japanese were planning to >attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that would have advanced >gondolas beneath them that would be manned by "death defying >Japanese" who were going to use bacteriological warfare on the >US. >Somewhere, these files must exist to have allowed the newspapers >to get this data. Someone may know a way in to get these 45 >files re the post-Fugo balloons and the "death defying >Japanese," all of which is the early days of what led up to the >New Mexico events. >Nick Nick, Et Al, With regard to the "source" for the "knowledge that the Japanese were planning to attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that would have advanced gondolas beneath them that would be manned by "death defying Japanese", that originated from Radio Tokyo. They publicized the threat of converting their "entire naval forces" into a "suicide corps".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:48:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:02:06 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sandow >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >For officialdom and serious scientists to get involved in the >Roswell circus would be rather like a geographical society >welcoming flat-earthers. But officials and serious scientists have in fact been involved: - the Air Force report - the GAO study (The GAO - which I believe now goes by another name is one of the most impressive agencies in the US government.) - Charles Moore's attempts to prove that a Mogul balloon crashed at Roswell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:50:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:08 -0400 Subject: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:59:10 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:12:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? - Ledger >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:53:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:13:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:53:23 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Any News On Tracking Abductees? >>>A Faraday cage also needs to be grounded. You don't often see >>>a grounding rod attached to a car. Rubber tires make great >>>insulators. >>Not really. Electronic equipment makes use of all sizes and >>shapes of faraday cages to shield and isolate different stages >>of electronic equipment from interfering with each other, >>radiating, or picking up environmental electromagnetic signals >>not intended. >I think the whole issue is whether the car acts enough like a >Faraday cage so as to block being abducted. It is clear that it >is not good enough. >I did some field research with my portable radio in my car and >the car blocks the signal pretty well except for near windows. >We know that cell phones work and radar detectors too. History >shows many folk that are not protected from abductions by their >car. In any event, an automobile does not approach the properties of a Faraday cage, nor come close to its ability to block out or trap in RF propagation. Some 30 percent or more of an automobile is window, an in-effective insulator against RF transmission. How an auto would protect or not protect in the instance of some abduction through "suggestion" is anyone's guess. Hardly any work has been done in this field, at least that we know of. I suspect that some secretive work along these lines by the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:55:43 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:16:33 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Boone >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:46 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:18:31 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>All Nick needs to prove his case are two or more credible >>witnesses and a body. It won't invalidate all UFO crash and >>body >>>recovery stories but it could reopen a time in our history >>where >>ghoulish experiments may have been conducted. >That's what I'm hoping - that it might bring some really key >players in this out and crack it wide open. >>I don't think Nick's account will run long without resolution as >>I also have 'the' man who is 'the' expert on the abuse of >>prisoners, citizens, military by medical and psychiatric >>institutions both government and private. He's a UFO expert as >>well and if the proof exists that corroborates Nick, he has it >>or can get it fast. >Again, this is what we need: people with insider info/contacts >that can dig deep and more importantly, know where to dig. My >only concern is the fact that all of the people I spoke with >were unanimous that massive amounts of material on this story >were destroyed, decades ago by the guilty, to protect the guilty. >Hopefully though, corroboration may be somewhere. Nick, the experts are right here in Los Angeles with me. It is so coincidental that they have such extensive knowledge on Unit 731 and had been schooling me on it and now you've corroborated their data as well. Whether the Roswell Incident of note is part of some hideous experiment or not is not what I'm looking for. It's the data on those hideous experiments that's of importance. When I worked for Parascope Magazine on AOL we would get untold thousands of people relating UFO stories and those came literally hand in hand with medical and psychiatric abuse. Some of these accounts were so brutal that no man who can call himself human could read them or listen to the victims and not dang near collapse in tears. We know for a fact there have been experimentation done on us citizens as well. I tried to tell Art Bell and Noory. Bell should have known, as he was a member of our staff at Parascope years ago. The data may have just passed by him though as he is so busy. That I can understand. I was busy then and had it not been for co-workers and the authors, ufologists, medical and law enforcement professionals that would visit and disclose these things they would have passed me by too. Rense was already on these types of stories and he knows what I know! :) So to me, your book and data are of concern because of the historic look at what we humans do to one another when the shepherd is asleep. I've got an army of the best danged researchers you could want on the subjects of abuse and experimentation with tons and tons of documents and witnesses and sworn testimony. The fact that they brought up Unit 731 when I asked them about UFOs, and now you've done the same is enough for me to offer what resources I have to see what fish can be pulled in.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Redfern's 731/Roswell story - Old News? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:22:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:22:26 -0400 Subject: Redfern's 731/Roswell story - Old News? Source: Kyle King's Blog http://uforeflections.blogspot.com/ Tuesday, June 21, 2005 Redfern's 731xRoswell story - Old News? An archived post to the old UFO Updates BBS may have seen the future. A post to UFO UpDates, which was an archived copy of an older post from 1995, makes the connection between Unit 731 (as reported in an episode of Dateline in '95) and the Roswell case (as depicted in a movie of the same name and era). Sue K. sent the copy of her 1995 post, and (having reading the excerpt from Redfern's book), this 1995 post seems positively prescient. While this takes nothing away from the exhaustive work Redfern reveals in his book, the greater point is that the 731/Roswell "story" has been out there since...well...since at least 1995. There is a moral to this story, but until I have read Redfern's book in toto I will refrain from stating an opinion on what that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:18:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:27 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:19:10 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >>to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >>inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >>about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >>to Wright-Patterson AFB. If mainstream ufologists had adopted an >>objective approach from the beginning, firmly disowning the >>cranks and fantasists, no doubt the whole matter would have been >>cleared up years ago. Rereading John Harney's words above, I realize that in my first response I let him get by with that last sentence, a wildly inaccurate, bordering on slanderous, characterization of how the Roswell controversy played out. "Mainstream ufologists" did indeed firmly disown "the cranks and fantasists." A considerable paper trail, which Harney has conveniently forgotten, attests to that. In some of those issues, I was an active participant. At one point disputes about the credibility of individuals (e.g., Gerald Anderson) became so heated that CUFOS and FUFOR put together a formal conference in which the issues could be debated and documented, producing a monograph from that conference (The Plains of San Agustin Controversy, July 1947, published by FUFOR/CUFOS, 1992). Readers of the Roswell literature will be aware of how ufologists - even ones who had first supported certain claimants who later proved unreliable - took apart questionable informants, including some major players, among them Frank Kaufmann and Philip Corso (the latter better characterized perhaps as a would-be major player). An excellent one-stop guide to all this is Kevin D. Randle's The Roswell Encyclopedia (2000), with blunt assessments of who seems believable and who doesn't, along with an overview of how Roswell controversies evolved and were, or were not, resolved. Mainstream Roswell investigators also published pointed critiques of MJ-12 and other dubious-to-debunked documents. Much of this research and writing appeared in the pages of IUR, of which I am an editor. I personally edited a number of these critical/skeptical pieces, and I wrote a fierce editorial or two attacking dubious theories and informants. Since his actual complaint is without substance, we are forced to ask what Harney's real complaint is. As nearly as I can determine, it is that ufologists took Roswell seriously enough to investigate it at all for any other reason than to debunk it. He would have preferred, one presumes, the Magonia approach: ridicule from a safe distance and without the trouble of actual inquiry into the messy facts. Ufologists who actually did the hard work made their share of mistakes and ran up not a few blind alleys, which is only to be expected; they can, moreover, be legitimately criticized in some cases for rushing into print when they should have waited. But it is also true that most acted honorably and with a manifest dedication to truth- seeking. That dedication is documented in their willingness to expose the cranks and the fantasists wherever they found them. We may expect the pelicanists, of course, to engage in frantic revisionist history. Whenever they do so, it is essential that they be held to account for their misrepresentations. Ufologists are expected - legitimately - to learn from their errors. We ought to expect no less of their critics, even if no demonstrable evidence - including their initial responses to the new Roswell possibilities - suggests they are capable of doing so. Naturally, I would like to be wrong about that, but I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Filer's Files #26 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:58:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:39:56 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #26 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #26 =96 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International June 21, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Australian Sightings Increase The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. Assuming UFOs are real, then much of what we know in science is wrong, that it is quite likely the visitors had a profound effect on the development of Earth. This week's files cover Huge Moon is an illusion, Conjunction of Planets, Boeing tries to defy gravity, the Alien DNA Paradigm, a Polish crop circle, and the United Kingdom polygraph, and more Mars anomalies. . UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, and Washington. Many sightings were also reported in Australia, Canada, and Mexico. Huge moon is an illusion, UFOs are real. This week the moon will appear exceptionally large as a huge moon rises in the east as the sun sets in the west. This week's full moon hangs lower in the sky than any full moon since June 1987. You may wonder if you can believe your eyes, because a giant moon will rise in the early evening sky. You might want to take a picture of the giant moon, and don't be surprised if you capture something else besides a cratered moon. This full moon is much larger than usual because your eyes play tricks on you called the Moon Illusion. It is also a great time to look for UFOs, the ones you see will likely be real. But remember anything hanging low in the sky will look unnaturally big. Cameras don't see the illusion, but your eyes do. You might want to shoot a few photos, since you might be surprised the UFOs are out in large numbers. The huge moon is a real illusion, the UFOs are just real. Conjunction of Planets After looking at the huge moon tonight and over the weekend, turn around and watch the sun set. As the sun sets you should be able to see Venus as a point of light on the western horizon. As the sky darkens Saturn and Mercury will show up. The three planets will form a tiny triangle no bigger than your thumb in an impressive conjunction of the planets. Boeing tries to defy gravity An anti-gravity device would revolutionize air travel. Researchers at the world's largest aircraft maker, Boeing, are using the work of a controversial Russian scientist to try to create a device that will defy gravity. The company is examining an experiment by Yevgeny Podkletnov, who claims to have developed a device which can shield objects from the Earth's pull. 1. Solenoids create magnetic field 2. Spinning, super-conducting ceramic ring 3. Liquid Nitrogen acts as coolant 4. Dr Podkletnov claims weight can be reduced by 2% (1kg=3D980g) The project is being run by the top-secret Boeing Phantom Works in Seattle. The head of the Phantom Works, George Muellner, told Jane's Defence Weekly that the science appeared to be valid and plausible. Dr. Podkletnov claims to have countered the effects of gravity in an experiment at the Tampere University of Technology in Finland in 1992. The scientist says he found that objects above a superconducting ceramic disc rotating over powerful electromagnets lost weight. The reduction in gravity was small, about 2%, but the implications - for example, in terms of cutting the energy needed for a plane to fly - were immense. Scientists who investigated Dr. Podkletnov's work, said his experiment was fundamentally flawed and that negating gravity was impossible. Boeing is taking Dr. Podkletnov's research seriously and the hypothesis is being tested in a program code named Project Grasp. The military wing of the UK hi-tech group BAE Systems is also working on an anti-gravity program, dubbed Project Greenglow. Thanks to BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm and http://www.greenglow.co.uk/ Arizona videos SOTTSDALE - Victoria Lilenquist sent me a CD full of UFO images, like the one shown above. She uses Night Vision on her Sony Camcorder, and usually has many witnesses to her sightings. The video shows a large white orb or series of orbs. The large orbs flew east along a hillside, darted behind a hill, then appeared again heading north. The video was witnessed by several others. It is apparent that many strange objects are seen in Arizona skies. Members of my family who are strong skeptics also see unidentified flying objects regularly. Victoria has appeared on TV numerous times defending her videos and images to professionals. Editor's Note: There is static or interference over the entire image including the UFO itself. The lack of similar static around the UFO can mean the image has been tampered with. Experts can argue the authenticity of every video or image captured on film. Daily new UFOs are captured by many different cameras, and the preponderance of the evidence shows something strange is in our skies. California Flying Saucer SAN MARCOS -- At 1:30 PM, the observer looked up and saw a rhythmically flashing light in a cloudy sky on May 8, 2005. He grabbed his binoculars and saw an oscillating disc. He states, "I watched the disc with an extremely bright top, and a dark bottom that was the size of a dime at arm=92s length, as it began to descend and reverse course.=94 It entered another cloud, and popped out the other side on the same course. Then, it came to a complete stop and continued oscillating, then slowly flew north. It was spinning and wobbling like a top about to fall over. The disc climbed and entered a cloud. The cloud had streams of vapor emerging but the UFO had disappeared. I think the object was inspecting two large water tanks on a local mountain slope. It was a Flying Saucer! Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research. HBCC UFO Research Note: There has also been a new audio clip added to the site. It is rather different. A lady reports that in the Connersville and Greenville, Indiana in 1973 a craft landed and took two men aboard. Police and factory workers were witness to the chain of events. Check out the site to listen to the audio interview. http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D27 82 Colorado sighting by five witnesses DENVER -- Greetings from Glennys Mackay National Director Mufon Brisbane Australia, " I thought it is fitting to report a first hand sighting on June 8th, 2005 while visiting friends living up on Blue Mountain overlooking Golden.=94 At 7:15 PM, I was standing on the balcony admiring the view when we were attracted to what we thought at first to be a very large bird flying from west to east. I commented to my friend John Tracey (also visiting from Brisbane Australia) what a huge bird when it passed the tall ponderosa pines it was in clear vision. "This object was flashing a blue light and on turning towards us was silver and round, and appeared to be landing on a clear grass area between the trees across the valley.=94 She stated. It then climbed up to eye level and started to fly towards us. By this time there were three other people who witnessed this UFO: Averill Boylan from Tauranga, New Zealand; and our Hosts Ainsley and Darlene Bell. As we watched, it seemed to turn along the contour of the hills before changing direction and flying across the valley towards the rocky outcrop on our side of the valley before it took off at great speed towards Denver. Then, disappearing up into the clouds. We were able to take two photos as it began to gather speed. The report was given to John Schuessler at Mufon Head Office the following morning. - I think George this really made our trip to USA a pretty exciting one as our Host and Hostess had never seen a UFO or believed up until this time. Rev. Glennys Mackay J.P. National Director Mufon Brisbane, Australia. Indiana multiple lights for ten minutes. FORT WAYNE =96 The observer saw several strange white lights moving in multiple directions on May 26, 2005, at 10 PM, while out on a walk. He noticed several faint white lights which were about the same brightness of most stars, moving rather fast across the sky in multiple directions. He states, "I ruled out aircraft because I could clearly see them with their red/blue lights flashing on the wings at the same time I saw these strange lights which appeared to be much higher up. The skies were clear at the time and it was totally dark. I don't believe they were satellites either due to all the different directions these lights were moving. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Florida five minute sighting of circle CORAL SPRINGS =96 Two friends were on the patio when they noticed two bright lights dancing in the sky at around 10:15 PM, on May 25, 2005. My roommate was on the patio investigating a cat fight when she called me out to check on it also. As I was looking at the cats, she noticed two bright whitish circles dancing back and forth. She got my attention to look up as well, to make sure that what she was seeing was real. As I looked up, I spotted them immediately as well. We asked each other what it may be? Both of us being in the airline business, we both knew that they were not any type of airplanes, helicopters, or weather balloons of any kind. We watched as they danced around and then moved south for a short period of time. Then, they proceeded to head west finally disappearing into the night. As they moved south and then west, they were still "dancing" with one another. Kind of like they were playing with one another. The night was calm and clear and we have no other way to describe them other than UFO's. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Missouri egg seen for ten minutes. CAPE GIRARDEAU -- The witness reports seeing a very large, stationary egg or football shaped light, illuminated like a 100 watt bulb at 11:15 PM, on May 24, 2005. I was coming across the new Bill Emerson bridge and I noticed a large football or blimp looking object floating or stationary. It didn=92t look like it was moving and it could have been 3 to 5 miles into the city at tree level It was completely illuminated like a light bulb in a dark closet. First, I thought it was an advertising blimp but later none were thought to be there. I guessed it to be the size of very large building. He also noticed strange aircraft/copters flying around at same time with red, strobe taillights that seem to lunge at fast speeds then decelerate. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Nevada morphing object emitting light LAS VEGAS =96 The observers saw UFOs twice in four days, this is really disturbing me! Since Saturday, I have been keeping an eye on the sky and on June 7, 2005, at 2:30 PM, there were two more objects above my house! I was on the phone and sat in the sun and saw a very bright white star up against a bright blue sky. I ran to get my binoculars and movie camera and saw it was emitting white light and seemed to be changing shape! It would be round, then change to a triangle, then have appendages. Then a second UFO came and flew underneath the first; it was really weird! The one underneath seemed to just disappear, and we followed the other one as it moved north and went down between two mountain ranges in the distant. I got a shot of them on the video recorder but, it was a very short. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director http://www.hbccufo.org New Mexico sightings 50 years apart CLOVIS -- Don Burleson writes, "I was very intrigued by the account, in your recent Filer's Files #25, called "New Mexico's Possible New Roswell Info," not just because it has to do with Roswell, but because the locale reported by "Dave" seems to coincide fairly closely with that of the case I investigated about a year ago and wrote up for the MUFON Journal, about a circle of lights seen in the road by two women driving at night west of Clovis, New Mexico.=94 Of course there's a difference of fifty-some-odd years between the two accounts, but the fact that the locale seems to be the same-- around the area of Melrose, a little town west of Clovis-- is interesting. ("Dave" says that the locale is about 40 miles northeast of Roswell, but Melrose is actually further than that, around a hundred miles; yet there's only one road one can be driving on, heading west from Clovis, so we have to be talking about the road through Melrose.) My two witnesses to the later event seemed so mystified by their experience (which involved seeing a spiral of lights ahead in the road and seeming to drive into it, with a lost-time experience of an hour and a half) that I almost feel--reading now that something happened there to Dave's parents in 1947-- that it's as if my two "Melrose Lights" witnesses had some sort of time-turnaround revisit of the earlier event or something. Weird. All best-- Don Burleson North Carolina huge craft fly's over DAVIDSON COUNTY -- Recent photo of UFO taken by Alan Caviness using flash and digital camera. Alan Caviness CD shows many explained and unexplained dimensions containing images that you can receive free if you donate to these files. FARMVILLE =96 The observer was driving east of town on a dark road and noticed a huge object blocking out the stars as it moved slowly toward Farmville in the spring of 1990. He stopped his car at 10 PM, and turned off the engine and stood outside the car as he watched the large mother ship moving slowly over downtown. It had only random small lights around the edge, and seemed too large not to be making any sound. It was about the size of downtown, maybe a ten-twelve block - square diameter. I remember watching this "Mother ship" as if I were watching a jet cross the sky. I wasn't excited. I keep thinking that maybe I was in shock. It took years to tell anyone. I'm a college professor and don't care to take these things lightly, but why am I the only to report a craft this size. Thanks to Brian Vike. Ohio UFO video taped FOSTORIA - On June 19, 2005, George Ritter took this photo of a UFO over a nearby farmer's field. Note there appears to a bird flying between the tree and the UFO. Thanks to George Ritter. Washington sighting by Boeing managers. MT. ADAMS -- There were four Boeing managers present on Saturday June 4, 2005, to a UFO sighting. The four professional aerospace witnesses including myself who know better than armchair nay Sayers what celestial objects are observed. I have seen dozens of missile launches, myriad aircraft under all conditions, and I =91am intimately familiar with the US radar, space, and missile technology and advanced capabilities. At 10:15 PM, I tried to power up my digital camera for the really awesome one of the four UFOs I saw, but I was too late. We were looking towards the mountain at Saturday night until midnight. We were guests of James Gilliland at his ranch, 13 miles south of Mt. Adams when we saw a star sized white light crossing the sky directly above us heading south at a fairly fast clip, and was "snaking" back and forth by several nearby stars. It moved across the sky for about 20 to 30 degrees of arc, and stopped, parked there and dimmed. With the hundreds of stars visible and the fact that it stopped moving, I soon lost track of the UFO's exact position. Our host had a telephoto lens and saw a red light attached to its tail, while it was moving. I spotted the UFO first, as I have exceptional long range vision. The second sighting was a brighter star sized UFO came into view traveling west and traveled 10 to 15 degrees of arc across the sky at about a 60 degree angle from the ground. It took a smooth 35 degree arcing turn to the NNW, traveled a short distance, and stopped high above Mt Adams. No dimming. Third and best sighting was a medium bright, star sized UFO came in from the WSW, meandered somewhat randomly heading in an easterly direction. It stopped right next to a dimmer star. Suddenly it lit up hundreds of times brighter than it was for four seconds, moved off into space, dimming to nothing in a snaking trajectory. When that puppy lit up, everyone gasped, cheered, hooted, hollered, and went wild. Fourth, a star sized UFO traveling south when it "flashed" like a strobe pulse, then returned to a very dim object. A few seconds later, it flashed again, and dimmed. This scenario repeated 12 times while crossing directly overhead, and traveling 35 degrees of the sky, changing directions multiple times. The flashes were randomly timed. The UFO then stopped above us, and parked there for the rest of the night. Thanks to R. Around 11:30 PM, several people pointed out a moving star like object just= north of zenith and ramped up in intensity from a faint star to being the= brightest object in the sky. It lit up for perhaps four seconds. I was able= to say loudly for the dozen people present, "Look at this one!=94 The= object appeared as a yin yang shape with a dark protuberance where the= upper black portion of the yang would be. It was three dimensional but not= a cylinder, with the large white yin side foremost. It was about 1/10 the= diameter of the full moon and was brighter than the full moon. It was= obvious to all that it was an alien spacecraft deliberately showing itself.= Thanks to Duane Barker Capt, USAF, Ret. Rocket Scientist Washington Disc seen for 35 seconds. VANCOUVER =96The witness was sitting on his deck and I looked up as an airliner was going over on its usual landing path on May 26, 2005, at 11 PM, when he saw an oval and dark object flying near the airliner. I focused on the object that was rocking back and forth, and left to right. I called my daughter and she saw it too. We watched it as it traveled towards the west, still rocking from side to side. It went into a thin hazy cloud and my daughter said "maybe it's a weather balloon". It was traveling slowly and I asked my daughter, "why would a weather balloon be rocking from side to side?" Then, it came out from the thin hazy cloud, went a little bit further and all of a sudden it made a sharp left turn into denser clouds and then it was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Australia sightings increase ATHERTON, NORTH QUEENSLAND =96 Ross writes, "Just a quick e-mail to let you know UFOs have been happening here for five years. Sir, there are multiple witnesses; even covert military have footage. My friend Mary mailed me your latest report from Acern, Australia and wanted me to notify you. It is difficult to report one particular sighting because we see them everyday and every night!!! I=92ll attach a video of early this year where 3 nights in a row the UFOs flew through Orion! I=92ve been documenting them for five years and they often seem to try to communicate, but I'm unsure of their message. I have been in cane fields with UFOs as close as 30 metres away and I have seen orbs or earthlights the size of medium cars with footage that techs say would have cost tens of thousands to reproduce. Trust me we're broke. Attached is a blue orb that visits over our home regularly, that is a very big house size. A short video and still picture are included. The Orion clip is all through nights in one vitrify. You are the FIRST in five years to ask or show interest in the propulsion systems! You are welcome to post the pictures and I thank you for asking for these, since there is no need to write fiction This is not fiction, it's very real, and very current, these things are flying over my family's home for five years on a daily basis. Thanks to Ross MINDIL BEACH -- Eric Tlozek reports that Chris Peacock didn't believe in UFOs - until he saw one two nights in a row. The retired bricklayer was star-gazing while he tried to get back to sleep at 3 AM, on Monday June 13, 2005, and instead he saw something that kept him awake until daybreak. He says, "I looked at the stars and then one of them moved, became bright, then moved up and down and made weird shapes in the sky." Mr. Peacock, 53, awaken his wife and showed her the object. His 20- year-old daughter also saw it "I had always heard about UFOs and never believed in them," Mr. Peacock said. "I know it wasn't a plane or a helicopter - it was doing things you know mankind cannot do." Peacock said the object continued its apparently random movement across the sky almost until dawn, when it disappeared. He dismissed it as a strange phenomenon until he saw it reappear yesterday morning. The Territory is well-known for UFO sightings - Wycliffe Well roadhouse, 380km north of Alice Springs on the Stuart Highway, once ranked fifth in the world in a study of UFO activity. News.com.au http://www.news.com.au/story/0%2C10117%2C15620461- 17001%2C00.html Barry Taylor writes from Australia: Over the past 9 years of regular "UFO Hunting" or Sky watching, it has been noted that each year around April or May, the UFO returns over the observation location during daytime. This is often the beginning of a "UFO Wave" that may continue for the next several months. Photo taken on May 19, 2005. The type of weather on this special feel 'first' day of the UFO return has been the same on each of the last 3 recorded events. A fine, warm and calm winter=92s day with little to no clouds. The 19th of May this year was another one of these "special feeling" beautiful calm days and this object was observed as a rapidly 'flashing' object at around 1,500 feet altitude. The footage shows the object changed from dark to bright and back to dark within consecutive frames on the video (each 1/25th second). It, then, remained as a dark object for a number of consecutive frames. The image above was selected because it was partly dark and partly illuminated. This may show the objects real shape and try to identify what is causing the reflection source. This footage of the red "Jellyfish" type UFO could be the best ever taken of these objects. http://home.manyrivers.aunz.com/sting1946/may2005.htm Thanks to Barry Taylor UFO Researcher and Skywatch-International http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Canada UFO caught on tape KINGSTON, ONTARIO =96 Kevin Arman reports, "On June 10, 2005, at around 9:30 PM, my girlfriend and I just saw an object shoot across the sky. The object was in sight for about ten seconds and was moving at phenomenal speeds. The witness ran to get his camera. He states, "My heart was beating so fast, it still feels like a dream. The object shot from the west and went into a southwest direction. My girlfriend and I both remember feeling a static like feeling when it shot by as our hair was all statically charged and started to stick up on end.=94 I got my camera out and waited for a good 15 minutes and the UFO returned to fly by over head at a good 500 feet above us and it was darting all over the place. It was in sight for a good minute then it raced towards the city of Kingston. My girlfriend had to sleep at her friend=92s house because she was too scared to sleep alone. Thanks to Kevin Arman. kev_arman.nul Carribbean USO sighting John Colaw, a US Marine witnessed an USO - Unidentified Submerged Object. He states, "I was among a dozen witnesses who observed a huge USO in 1977, in the Bermuda triangle in the Caribbean. We were part of a large invasion fleet traveling on a secret mission to invade Panama to take control of the canal for President Carter. The ship was the USS Ponce, an LPD. It cargoed tanks, Mike boats, helicopters and marine landing parties which included myself. We were running completely dark, with no lights on deck, and there was no moon. We were watching the phosphorescent glow that trailed behind the edge of our ship a short distance, caused by certain plankton that light up when disturbed. As we watched, we saw a large blue glow approaching our ship underwater from the stern. As it caught up to us, and began passing underneath, we sat on the fantail and looked right down at it. It was much wider than our ship, and it was pulsing almost like the way embers flicker. It was brighter and a deeper hue than the flickering plankton. My first thought was a submarine, disturbing plankton much like our ship did. Except the plankton effect seems to occur in the trailing edge and wake, not over such a large surface area. Someone else suggested maybe it was a whale, but we were all dumbfounded as it passed our ship and headed off to a tangent to our own direction. The seas were not very high, and the extreme darkness enhanced the experience. It was sort of oval in shape, but we could not see a definite shape, except that it was about as wide as it was long and that our ship's length was about the size of its diameter. It was likely an underwater UFO, because a submarine would leave a much more narrow profile. It did not emerge from the water. http://www.ufowisconsin.com/pancakeperspectives/pp2002_0516.html Thanks to Skywatch International Mexico UFO photographs COZUMEL -- Victor Hugo Barajano took this photo from a cruise ship on May 16, 2005 at 22:30 hours, over the Gulf of Mexico. The witness claims he has a sequence of 16 photographs and this luminous object appeared to be following an airplane that landed at the local airport. He was using a Canon EOSS2-D camera and research was conducted by Emilio Cetz of the S.I.R.I.O. group Poland crop circles reported PAPROS -- On Sunday morning June 19, 2005, Leszek Owsiany received a report from Rafal Nowicki from the Nautilus Foundation that some crop circles appeared in a village in central Poland. A few hours later Independent Research Group Torun including: Leszek Owsiany, Jacek Kozlowski and Wojtek Budny arrived and saw a pictogram in rye, on the field of Mr. Stynzewski that consisted of three circles joined together. Dimensions are 20,80m x 20,50m; 7,70m x 7,70m and 6,00m x 5,70m In all circles the rye was lying on the right side. Local inhabitant Mr Zbigniew Wasilewski, came to us and told us that he also discovered two circles on his field the previous day. We immediately visited these places. The first circle (situated about 1 km from the first formation) was a regular one (12,30m x 12,30m), in the wheat, lying on the right side. We noticed the next circle situated half a kilometer away was lying right side again and the wheat was already almost standing up. It might have been created two weeks earlier. Thanks to Rafal Nowicki IRG Torun THE ALIEN DNA PARADIGM Bill Chalker writes, "In my forthcoming book "HAIR of the ALIEN - DNA and other Forensic Evidence of Alien Abduction" I focus on a DNA forensic approach to alien abduction evidence. While prominence is given to the Peter Khoury "alien hair" case from Sydney Australia, other cases and experiences from around the world are also examined. While the validity of this evidence will be debated, my primary focus is to promote a forensic scientific approach to examining the alien abduction controversy, concentrating on the DNA approach where compelling biological evidence is available. Part of this approach involves examining DNA for evidence of "non-Darwinian patterns", which might reflect extraterrestrial or intelligent influence - a sign of artificial evolution or intervention. The Anomaly Physical Evidence Group (APEG) have been examining this intriguing area focusing in part on unusual mutations, polymorphisms, our "junk" DNA (or perhaps more appropriately "regulatory" DNA) and other aspects. Professor Paul Davies of the Macquarie University based Australian Centre for Astrobiology has speculated that some sort of pattern (along the mathematical type of code described in Carl Sagan's novel (and the film) "Contact" might be encoded in our "junk DNA". While this sounds like science fiction, the idea is not as wild as it sounds. I briefly discussed this speculation with Paul Davies during a Macquarie University post graduate open day on campus on April 12, 2005. He indicated his "junk DNA - ET evidence" speculations were meant to be serious. He felt the idea was no less serious than the idea of seeking out ET "radio signals" (i.e. SETI which he agreed had not delivered any credible evidence so far) so why not try something that is far easier to do and is potentially well within our current technological reach - searching for coded clues within our own DNA. I mentioned to him that this intersected with some work I had been focusing on and he expressed interest in seeing my book. Whether this develops beyond mere tokenism remains to be seen. http://theozfiles.blogspot.com/ snip Thanks to Bill Chalker UK abductee passes polygraph In December 2004, The WHY? Files reported "Abductee faces polygraph test on U. K. T.V.". The abductee concerned was James Bazil and, as reported, the "lie detector" confirmed that James was being completely honest when he related his experiences of Alien Abduction. However, the time allocated in the T.V. show to James' story was extremely short and apart from Dr. Chris French's rather generalized opinions, most of James' account was missed. James submitted a more detailed account of his experiences to The WHY? Files and we are pleased to publish it. His account of life-long experiences is, at times, harrowing, from being diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness to being tormented by other children. James Bazil's response can be read at: http://www.thewhyfiles.net/abductions4.htm Mars anomalies Harold Carver writes, "This image taken by the Mar's Rover contains a small humanoid creature peaking out a doorway. Theory has it that after the asteroid impact of 65 million years ago life forms went from very big to much smaller in order to survive. The image shows a small hominoid type creature coming out of the ground. On Mars size may be meaningless with creatures of every size. This photo shows the site of where the Spirit Rover heat shield crashed. The only problem is if you look closely at the ground there is a piece of rusty metal sticking out with mostly undisturbed soil with those interesting little berry things in it. So the question to NASA would be, if the rusty old piece of metal belongs to the heat shield, how did it manage to get underneath the ground without tearing up the soil around it or did they let something slip by? Thanks to Harold Carver Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for= majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul Subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL Actor Dan Aykroyd, star of many movies and television shows including The Blues Brothers, Ghostbusters and Saturday Night Live, is a MUFON Benefactor (Lifetime) member and MUFON's official Hollywood Consultant. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Secrecy News -- 06/22/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:55:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:41:46 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/22/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 58 June 22, 2005 ** AN ENCOMIUM ON SOLAR SAILING (RESTRICTED) ** HOUSE VOTES TO FUND PUBLIC INTEREST DECLASS BOARD ** ARMY REGULATION ON SHARING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS AN ENCOMIUM ON SOLAR SAILING (RESTRICTED) Cosmos 1, an innovative solar sailing spacecraft that would use solar radiation for propulsion, reportedly suffered a launch failure today. Cosmos 1 was sponsored by Cosmos Studios and supported by The Planetary Society. But solar sailing is "extremely promising," according to a "restricted access" report prepared at Los Alamos in 1973. The technology would enable "travel essentially at will throughout the solar system, achieving quite reasonable flight times for a broad category of interesting interplanetary missions." The "restricted" Los Alamos report, by Theodore P. Cotter, expanded upon two earlier sources: a 1958 paper by Richard L. Garwin in the journal Jet Propulsion, and a 1951 article by the pseudonymous Russell Saunders in Astounding Science Fiction. The concepts independently described by those two previous writers, the Los Alamos author wrote, "are physically sound, quantitatively correct and extremely promising." Today, access to the 1973 Cotter paper is "restricted to selected government agencies," states the web site of the Los Alamos National Laboratory research library. It is one of many thousands of unclassified technical papers that were removed from online public access in the post-9/11 clampdown on public information. A copy is nevertheless available from the Federation of American Scientists. See "An Encomium on Solar Sailing" by T.P. Cotter, Report No. LA-5231-MS, May 1973, 8 pp.: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00390190.pdf HOUSE VOTES TO FUND PUBLIC INTEREST DECLASS BOARD The Public Interest Declassification Board (PIDB), an advisory group that was established by law five years ago but never actually convened, will receive its first allocation of funds next fiscal year if a bill approved in the House this week becomes law. "The [House Appropriations] Committee directs that from amounts available in Operation and Maintenance, Defense-Wide, $1,000,000 shall be available for the Public Interest Declassification Board," according to the House report on the 2006 Defense Appropriations Act (House Report 109-119). Approval of the funding would mark an end to an embarrassing impasse in which the Board has been unable to meet even though most of its members have now been named by the Bush White House and Congressional leaders. The Board is not empowered to enact structural changes to the classification system, nor does it have any independent declassification authority. It is strictly an advisory body. Still, it provides an official venue to air concerns over classification and declassification policies. For more information, see: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/pida.html ARMY REGULATION ON SHARING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION The politically delicate matter of sharing classified information with allies and other foreign entities is the subject of a newly updated U.S. Army regulation. "This regulation provides policy and procedures for the disclosure of United States Army classified military information to foreign governments and international organizations." See Army Regulation 380-10, "Foreign Disclosure and Contacts with Foreign Representatives," updated June 22, 2005 (96 pp., 2.3 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar380-10.pdf SELECTED CRS REPORTS Recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI)," June 7, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RS21881.pdf "The Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA): Origin, Characteristics, and Institutional Authorities," updated June 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32370.pdf "Political Status of Puerto Rico: Background, Options, and Issues in the 109th Congress," May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32933.pdf "U.S.-Mexico Economic Relations: Trends, Issues, and Implications," May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32934.pdf "U.S. Treatment of Prisoners in Iraq: Selected Legal Issues," updated May 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32395.pdf "International Financial Institutions: Funding U.S. Participation," May 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22134.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:47:37 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:21:40 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Hello Nick, and All >I have begun to read you long interview, but I have stopped >half way, having already a couple of questions and criticisms. >First, the confusion in Roswell with a "flying saucer" seems >just as unbelievable as for any other type of balloon. A balloon >is a balloon, even a very big one. Or a fragment of it. The same >remark applies to a small craft, either wooden or metallic, or >to a fragment of it. Gildas, With regard to the issue of why the people at Roswell couldn't tell a balloon from a flying saucer, you're not realizing the one, key thing that so many other researchers don't realize (or take into consideration the significance of either). That's the big thing: why couldn't they tell a balloon from a UFO (even a big balloon)? The simple answer is that this occurred little more than a week after the first UFO sighting by Kenneth Arnold. At that time, there was no UFO UpDates, no Net, no UFO Magazine, nothing, no UFO history, no books on the subject, etc., etc. So in other words, there was no way that anyone - only days after Arnold - knew that flying saucers weren't made like balloons, precisely because there was no history to the subject in place for them to work with and make accurate comparisons. Today, we might make an educated guess on what a crashed saucer would look like because we have 60 years of reports to deal with. You tell me how guys would specifically not know that saucers were not made of balloon like materials when the subject was barely a week old?! >And the same remark applies to the discovery of a human body, be >it of a genetically ill person, and even badly damaged by a >sinister experiment such as dropping him fom high altitude >without protection. That is still very far from making an >"alien" body! True, but it's made clear that some of these people were physically handicapped. No disrespect here, but they looked unusual to begin with. Then in flight suits, decomposing after a day in the desert? Seen at a distance near a weird device? Of course, people will think it's aliens. >Another big problem with your story is when the DIA informer >tells you that the AF intelligence favored UFO crashed stories, >just in order to cover-up sinister experiments with japanese war >prisoners. >The sad fact is, there have been in the past, criminal experiments >such as deadly irradiations, but they were finally made public! Yes but these are far more controversial tests, because the further you dig into all this you find the Unit 731 connections. That is the crux of the cover-up. Not the crash as such but the fact that it linked the people of the day with the scum at 731. That was the damning secret that remains hidden to this day and why these were far more sensitive than the already-declassified experiments. >The fact is that the Air Force, far from promoting UFO crashes, >has done all it could to deny them. That is true of today's Air Force certainly. But I have a whole chapter in the book where it's quite clear the hand of officialdom was at work spreading spurious crash reports to hide all this decades ago. Hell, even at the official website of the NSA, if you go to their UFO section, download the PDF of a translation of a 60s Russian mag article on UFOs. There's a piece in there on the Spitsbergen crash. Someone in the murky official world has circled the Spitsbergen story with the word "Plant". I have loads of similar examples. >Another aspect difficult to believe it the testimony of the >"lady from Oak Ridge" : what a fantastic tale, of those >mutilated bodies brought to Oak Ridge, and later sent to Los >Alamos and who knows where! Hard to believe, Nick. You say "hard to believe". I would say controversial, and for that reason precisely why I spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars traveling the US following this. So you think it's harder to believe that than aliens crashing near a location that was test flying captured Axis technology? Hmmm.... >On the other hand, the stories you have been told are quite >good to spread confusion again.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:26:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:49:48 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:39:06 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Nick, Et Al, >With regard to the "source" for the "knowledge that the Japanese >were planning to attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that >would have advanced gondolas beneath them that would be manned >by "death defying Japanese", that originated from Radio Tokyo. >They publicized the threat of converting their "entire naval >forces" into a "suicide corps". Yes, and the US newspaper clippings of the time show that the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 UK Abductee Passes Polygraph From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:53:17 -0400 Subject: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph Hello All, The following brief article appeared in the current edition of Filer's Files: --- UK Abductee Passes Polygraph In December 2004, The WHY? Files reported "Abductee faces polygraph test on U. K. T.V.".The abductee concerned was James Bazil and, as reported, the "lie detector" confirmed that James was being completely honest when he related his experiences of Alien Abduction. However, the time allocated in the T.V. show to James' story was extremely short and apart from Dr. Chris French's rather generalized opinions, most of James' account was missed. James submitted a more detailed account of his experiences to The WHY? Files and we are pleased to publish it. His account of life-long experiences is, at times, harrowing, from being diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness to being tormented by other children.James Bazil's response can be read at: http://www.thewhyfiles.net/abductions4.htm --- I know, this doesn't prove anything, but... I have long been an advocate of using polygraph testing as a part of a preliminary screening process for anyone reporting UFO occupant abduction cases. I'm familiar with the fact that polygraph has some shortcomings and that it is inadmissible in a court of law etc. Nonetheless, it could prove useful as a means of eliminating individuals who are being intentionally deceptive. And intrinsic shortcomings aside, it is still no 'easy matter' to fool a lie detector, especially when coupled with an expert/experienced operator. Before I consented to participate in the NOVA abduction segment I had made several requests that I hoped would be fulfilled and aired. Although I was promised that 'some of them' would be used, in fact none were ever used. One such request that I made was for a polygraph examination. I thought it would be a great way to apply an immediate 'acid test' to the abductees. A test that even if only 'one' of us passed the exam, would have made a compelling result and lent 'some' credibility to the reports being made. Other forms of examination that I suggested included; a complete psychological work-up using experts of their own choosing; and several simple medical scans for any anomalous "foreign objects" in the bodies of the abductees, Not a one was followed up. Again I say; shame on them for not having taken advantage of a golden opportunity to do some serious science reporting on this subject. I am convinced that any kind of 'testing' would only have strengthened the reports we (the abductees) were making. Finally, after all these years, somebody in the UK bothered to actually administer a polygraph test to an abductee and just look at the result.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 22 Nick Redfern On SDI Saturday Night From: Strange Days... Indeed <sdi.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:14:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:16:42 -0400 Subject: Nick Redfern On SDI Saturday Night Nick Redfern will be our guest on Strange Days... Indeed, this coming Saturday night, at 10:00 p.m., in our first pre-recorded interview - ever. Victor Viggiani, Dave Furlotte and I talked with Nick this past Monday afternoon. Nick flys to Mexico at the end of this week for a no-refunds vacation, booked back at the beginning of the year. He was reassured, by Simon & Shuster, that his book, Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story, would be released in March. Hence the pre-record. An excerpt from the interview is available at: http://www.virtuallystrange.com/ufo/sdi/program/ as a RealPlayer file. Errol Bruce-Knapp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:07:01 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >This is the most interesting and extraordinary reconstruction of >the Roswell event that I have read in a long time, possibly >ever. It will not, of course, be "The End" - one assumes that >silly characterization to be no more than gaseous editorial >hyperbole - but, more likely, "The Beginning" of a new >discussion and debate which, one hopes, will move a long- >stalemated controversy forward. >Sometime ago I came to the conclusion that no explanation >proposed for the Roswell event really worked. Both crashed ETs >and secret Mogul experiments remained unproved and riddled with >problems. (I was amused to note how many pelicanists and >ufologists rushed to embrace the latter, meanwhile lecturing >those who didn't agree with them on _their_ alleged credulity.) >It seemed to me, in any case, that what remained was a national- >security secret, unrelated to ETs or the flying discs or aerial >monitoring of Soviet atomic tests, that even half a century >later (when Mogul was brought out to float on AF hot air) >continued to be too explosive to confess to. This new >interpretation certainly fits. Coincidentally, Peter Rogerson and I were discussing Roswell just a couple of weeks ago and wondering what sort of 'dirty little secret' would be shocking enough for the US Government to deliberately plant and provoke a UFO 'crash' as a cover up. Peter's suggestion was almost exactly what Nick seems to be revealing in this book - an experimental flight involving human guinea pigs, possibly prisoners or victims of A-bomb testing. I thought at the time his imagination was running on overdrive, but now....? Incidentally, as Stanton Friedman now seems to be about the only person in the world vigorously promoting an ET explanation for Roswell, I don't see this as being a 'pelicanist' v. 'believer' issue. >I look forward to reading Mr. Redfern's new book and to seeing >his evidence laid out in full. Until I know more, I will >reserve judgment and watch with great interest the debates that >ensue from here on in. If Redfern is right, however, the story >is a huge one, deserving of major attention in mainstream media >and of Congressional and other investigations. It will be >fascinating to see where all this goes from here. Quite right. This is certainly a book that calls for careful reading (and a review in Magonia, Nick - hint, hint!) The only note of caution I would raise at this stage is to hope that it does not fall into the category of tales described below, as related by a famous American ufologist: "Don't believe every story you hear. Some months ago my wife was babysitting for a married couple of our acquaintance. The man was an officer in the Army reserve, holding a high security clearance which rendered him privy to various military and intelligence secrets. He worked as a research scientist at a major university. He regularly confided some of these secrets to his wife, who then confided them to my wife, who then told them to me. Beyond recalling that all these presumed secrets were sensational in nature, I have forgotten most of them. Of those I remember, one - related in the midst of the Iranian hostage crisis - was that our government knew that the Iranian militants had executed several of their American captives. My informant also said that on a particular date the United States would invade Iran." You get the idea. "I never believed any of this, needless to say, but I couldn't resist the temptation to ask him - tongue firmly embedded in cheek - if, as a man well versed in hidden truths, he knew if there were any substance to those stories about crashed saucers and pickled aliens purported to be in the Pentagon's possession. He immediately assumed a stern, official-looking expression and declared that that was something he couldn't talk about. Not long afterwards, however, he added that the truth, if he were to confide it, would shock me. On two or three subsequent occasions he brought up the subject and let it be known that if I pressed him at all, he would tell me the whole story. For obvious reasons I never bothered. I mention this as a cautionary tale. Remember, the man has impeccable credentials. he is a military officer; he does have a high security clearance; and he is a research scientist at a major university. And he is also, it is clear, a spinner of yarns. Next time you read a story about a crashed saucer told by a man with similarly impressive credentials, remember him. In fact, there is a whole branch of modern folklore waiting to be seized upon and catalogued by scholars of popular culture. These are what I call Soldiers' Tales, or, the Horrendous Secrets I Learned in the Service . We ufologists hear them all the time. A few even purport to be firsthand accounts describing involvement in retrievals of crashed spaceships, the taking of spectacular UFO films, the witnessing of a fatal encounter between an aeroplane and a UFO, and so on. Such stories - or at least those with enough specific detail to permit follow-up investigation - seldom check out."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 3D Holograms [was: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:34:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:17:07 -0400 Subject: 3D Holograms [was: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:48:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: How Did 'Prophet Yahweh' Call The UFO? <snip> >I think in principle it would be possible to project a pretty >complex 2D image onto a cloud layer (or chemtrail!) using a >laser or two, although hiding the beam would be a problem. >Holographs are another issue. How can the member judge the >holographic nature of a non-moving person on a roof from a >distance? Should be pretty much 2D. Why couldn't the person >really still be there, but a "simple" invisibility screen >activated (as we have seen done recently)? The invisibility screens I've seen demonstrated would not fool someone who is intently looking at an anomalous person. They are OK for casual glancing, but not really close inspection. I'm simply reporting what one caller said - that it was a very realistic, solid appearing, 3D "hologram", with no plastic screen in front of or behind it. I wasn't there. The reason I report such things was to find out if anyone on this list had ever heard of them. I feel that if such technology exists, it is extremely important for UFO researchers to know about it, and it was worthy of mention. >>It's still unclear if what is referred to as "NASA's Project >>Bluebeam", allegedly for developing this technology, is >>responsible. >Can you find any supporting documents backing up the absurd >"NASA Project Bluebeam" claim that has oozed into the Internet? >How in the heck do these things get started? Why would NASA get >involved in a black project? Now NSA would make sense, but not >NASA! And if you read some of the "Project Bluebeam" rumors (?), >its full of New World order conspiracies that makes your head >spin! No, I can't. I was reporting a potentially relevant item, in case others on this list have more detail. I can say this, when something sounds "far out" or "conspiratorial", that "sound" doesn't mean it's not true. I _live_ in the middle of one of the most conspiratorial crime syndromes ever to appear on Earth, yet it is rock solid true, no matter what the "sound." Ditto for abductions, and endlessly repeating paranormal phenomena. Among our group, I'm one who is constantly hammering colleagues for making claims not supported by either first person experience or documentation. It's quite possible that if Blue Beam exists, lots of false claims have been made about it. But
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:19:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' - Tonnies >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:50:59 -0700 >Subject: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' >See this at Mac Tonnies's Blog today re Progeria. >http://tinyurl.com/7t8nh Quite a battle is raging at Posthuman Blues at the moment. The following essay seems to have provoked some interest; my impression is that most readers find the idea of human experimentation so deplorable that they're basically unwilling to consider it. If the footage is a hoax designed to depict an "alien," the odds that the film-makers happened to depict a progeria sufferer with remarkable accuracy are exceedingly slim. Indeed, my first reaction to the footage was incredulity: If it was a commercial hoax (the popularly accepted theory), why would the special effects crew create such an unlikely "alien"? Why not a quintessential "Gray," which many people automatically associate with tales of ET visitation? Not only would a faked dissection of a Gray very likely sell more autopsy videotapes, it would grant the perpetrators free reign in designing the alien's internal anatomy. Some commentators have remarked that the "alien" can't be a real cadaver because the internal organs look amorphous and, presumably, faked. Interestingly enough, the state of the organs is consistent with high-speed aircraft accidents in which the body's exterior experiences relatively superficial damage while the internal structure suffers gross displacement. This leaves the issue of the black eye coverings, which give the being an eerily "alien" look. Since the pathologists expediently remove them and put them in a specimen jar, it appears they're familiar with them; this argues against the footage being a first-time dissection of a being from another world. Instead, taken in the context of atomic experimentation, it indicates the supposed "alien" was outfitted with special contact lenses for scientific purposes - perhaps an attempt to protect the eyes from potentially blinding radiation. This may, in fact, have been the purpose of the experiment; it's easy to see why military scientists would want to assess protective gear, possibly for pilots operating in the wake of a nuclear war. In summary: This is not a conventional autopsy. It appears to be a hasty effort to harvest specific tissues under strict time constraints posed by radiation, an observation borne out by the bulky containment suits worn by the surgeons and the blink-and- you-miss it "maximum working time" plaque affixed to the operating theater wall. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:54:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:24:57 -0400 Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Gehrman >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:45 -0400 >Subject: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >The following brief article appeared in the current edition of >Filer's Files: >--- >UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >In December 2004, The WHY? Files reported "Abductee >faces polygraph test on U. K. T.V.".The abductee concerned >was James Bazil and, as reported, the "lie detector" confirmed >that James was being completely honest when he related his >experiences of Alien Abduction. >However, the time allocated in the T.V. show to James' story >was extremely short and apart from Dr. Chris French's rather >generalized opinions, most of James' account was missed. >James submitted a more detailed account of his experiences >to The WHY? Files and we are pleased to publish it. His account >of life-long experiences is, at times, harrowing, from being >diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness to being tormented >by other children.James Bazil's response can be read at: >http://www.thewhyfiles.net/abductions4.htm >--- >I know, this doesn't prove anything, but... I have long been an >advocate of using polygraph testing as a part of a preliminary >screening process for anyone reporting UFO occupant abduction >cases. John, I agree that a polygraph would be very helpful in all preliminary investigations of all major UFO witness accounts but a Voice Stress Analysis is just as reliable, easy to administer if the session is taped, and far less obtrusive; and after initial costs for setup, much cheaper.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:03:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:22:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' - Shell >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:50:59 -0700 >Subject: Progeria & The 'Alien Autopsy' >See this at Mac Tonnies's Blog today re Progeria. >http://tinyurl.com/7t8nh Mac repeats the false statement that the AA beings look like humans with progeria. They do not. Look at the AA film, and then look at photos of progeria victims. There is hardly any resemblance, other than an extremely superficial one. Progeria victims are spindly, have small neck muscles, and rather than larger heads, just have small facial features on their heads. The things in the AA film have massive heads, incredibly developed sterno-mastoid muscles, and an overall well-muscled and healthy look. Progeria victims look like undersized very old people. You don't solve problems in this field by perpetuating myths, and this progeria link is certainly one. Similarly, if you look at photos of polydactyl humans, you will see that in most cases the extra digit is deformed, not perfectly proportioned like those in the film. In fact, at first glance the hands look perfectly normal - until you stop and count the digits. There was an X-Files episode about Elohim, creatures born from intercourse between humans and angels. In that story the Elohim had six fingers and six toes. I assume they did this for the program using CGI, but the hands still looked deformed and off balance. The hands of the beings in the AA film just "look right". Again, while the gross anatomy is vertebrate, many details are simply not human. As I have said many times, I don't know what the "freaks" are, but I do know that they are not deformed humans, human victims of disease or radiation, or humans suffering from progeria. The list of what they are not gets longer, but doesn't bring us any closer to knowing what they are. I'm quite angry with Ray Santilli for never letting me talk directly with the cameraman. There are many questions a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:42:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:27:26 -0400 Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Friedman >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:45 -0400 >Subject: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >The following brief article appeared in the current edition of >Filer's Files: >--- >UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >In December 2004, The WHY? Files reported "Abductee >faces polygraph test on U. K. T.V.".The abductee concerned >was James Bazil and, as reported, the "lie detector" confirmed >that James was being completely honest when he related his >experiences of Alien Abduction. >However, the time allocated in the T.V. show to James' story >was extremely short and apart from Dr. Chris French's rather >generalized opinions, most of James' account was missed. >James submitted a more detailed account of his experiences >to The WHY? Files and we are pleased to publish it. His account >of life-long experiences is, at times, harrowing, from being >diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness to being tormented >by other children.James Bazil's response can be read at: >http://www.thewhyfiles.net/abductions4.htm >--- >I know, this doesn't prove anything, but... I have long been an >advocate of using polygraph testing as a part of a preliminary >screening process for anyone reporting UFO occupant abduction >cases. >I'm familiar with the fact that polygraph has some shortcomings >and that it is inadmissible in a court of law etc. Nonetheless, >it could prove useful as a means of eliminating individuals who >are being intentionally deceptive. And intrinsic shortcomings >aside, it is still no 'easy matter' to fool a lie detector, >especially when coupled with an expert/experienced operator. >Before I consented to participate in the NOVA abduction segment >I had made several requests that I hoped would be fulfilled and >aired. Although I was promised that 'some of them' would be >used, in fact none were ever used. One such request that I made >was for a polygraph examination. I thought it would be a great >way to apply an immediate 'acid test' to the abductees. A test >that even if only 'one' of us passed the exam, would have made a >compelling result and lent 'some' credibility to the reports >being made. >Other forms of examination that I suggested included; a complete >psychological work-up using experts of their own choosing; and >several simple medical scans for any anomalous "foreign objects" >in the bodies of the abductees, Not a one was followed up. >Again I say; shame on them for not having taken advantage of a >golden opportunity to do some serious science reporting on this >subject. >I am convinced that any kind of 'testing' would only have >strengthened the reports we (the abductees) were making. >Finally, after all these years, somebody in the UK bothered to >actually administer a polygraph test to an abductee and just >look at the result. >There is a genuine mystery here that has been consistently >ignored, ridiculed and marginalized by all. Right on John. I should point out that Betty Hill passed a polygraph examination on a TV show with F.Lee Bailey a number of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Harney From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:48:19 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:30:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Harney >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >>to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >>inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >>about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >>to Wright-Patterson AFB. If mainstream ufologists had adopted an >>objective approach from the beginning, firmly disowning the >>cranks and fantasists, no doubt the whole matter would have been >>cleared up years ago. >Claims about strange bodies were, as the rest of us know, not >"absurd speculations" but the testimony of a number of witnesses >- witnesses, one might add, the credibility of most of whom >_even the Air Force publicly took seriously_. (That's to let >alone the very real possibility that other, covert government >elements were doing all in their power to encourage ET >identifications of the bodies.) The AF even quoted eyewitness >descriptions in an effort to provide an alternative theory of >what the so-called bodies were (a theory, I might mention in >passing though it is not the point here, that caused even >hardened journalists to roar openly when it was declared at a >June 24, 1997, press conference aired live on news television >here in the U.S.). Was this the press conference which launched McAndrews's, The Roswell Report: Case Closed, and was the theory that some witnesses might have seen dummies used for testing parachutes? McAndrew suggested that some witnesses might have had vague memories of seeing these dummies but could not remember what year it was. When questioned by believers in a UFO crash in 1947, they agreed that might have been the year, although of course the dummies were not used until some years later. As Karl Pflock put it: "The anthropomorphic dunmies were ready- made for laughs and cheap shots. so, too, was the notion of flawed memories blending events widely separated in time, even though it is well-known that the vagaries of human memory frequently result in such misassociations. The naysayers' job was made even easier by the incredibly inept Pentagon press conference at which Case Closed was revealed."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:25 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:41:41 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:08:08 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Nick, >>I think you have problems knowing what any truth is. >And I'm supposed to care what you personally think about me, Ed? >I don't. All I did was try to present the facts as provided to >me and then put that material out there for people to see. Nick, What you provided was hearsay, nothing more. >people agree, fine. If they don't agree, then that's why we have >UFO UpDates - to debate it! But making comments specifically >about me, like yours above, instead of just focusing on >testimony/facts, etc., is foolish. No, sorry; it wasn't meant as an insult but a statement of fact. You have an incomplete grasp of the Roswell history and the witness testimony and the Roswell general timeline. And you have absolutely no understanding of the AA timeline or how the known evidence all fits together. Of course you're not alone. >>I think you've failed to show anything "coherent". >>And what exactly is the "coherent" story you've pulled together? >>All I read are disjointed ramblings. >Ramblings? All the interviewees were to-the-point, clear and >concise on what they said was the gist of the Roswell legend - >human experimentation and classified, prototype aviation >experiments. But where exactly is the evidence? Your witness testimony is nothing but hearsay. Do you have tapes and notes. Would you share them with us? Can I conduct a VSA on any of this testimony as I have done on most of my witness testimony. >Believe me, I've spoken with enough fakers to know >that when they have all the answers to every question, and when >they are indeed full of it. That's just not good enough. In fact, it's total BS. >But to have different aspects from >different people who were in different places at different >times, then that to me is a sign that there stories are genuine. >And no one tried to pretend that they knew everything. None of your witnesses knew anything! They only alluded to things. Do you have any tangible evidence from any of your witnesses? >>Just what exactly is your >>narrative concerning the AA. How does that fit into your >>picture. Have you even viewed the AA? I suspect not. > >Again, a foolish comment. Of course I've seen the AA - loads of >times. In fact, when it surfaced in '95, on UK TV's Channel 4, I >began digging into the story pretty deeply and shared some of my >findings with Phil Mantle about the cameraman's potential identity. >Maybe Phil is working this into his new book on AA? Ask him! Have you seen the uncut version that can be viewed frame by frame, in High and low resolution? Until you've seen that you're in the dark. Why didn't you purchase the AA CD set, find a photo of a Progeria sufferer and compare them. You'd soon see there's no comparison. >>If you had, you might have noticed that no matter how retarded >>or how congenitally deformed, or how abused and Japanese the >>victims you imagined were, they would have all shown an >>umbilicus and tits. The creature in the AA doesn't seem to have >>either. >Let me quote a section from an 1886 report of the Royal Medical >and Chirurgical Society by the renowned English physician- >surgeon Jonathan Hutchinson. Having examined a person with >Progeria, he said: "He had no nipples, their sites being >occupied by little patches of scar." Then where are the umbilicus and scars? But I'm very confused. Are you saying that the Santilli Alien Autopsy is footage of a real event, and that all of the researchers who've spent thousands of collective hours viewing the footage are correct: that what we're seeing is real, but we're just mistaken as to the nature of the creature? In other words, the footage is real but there's nothing to fear from this creature, since it's just a retarded, deformed kid being butchered. >>There's something else I'd like to ask, now that I have your >>attention. I read your interview very carefully and I can see by >>your responses that you have never read a word that I have >>written on the AA. >Actually, I have. I just disagree. And what do you disagree with? Please be specific. >>But several months ago, Ryan Woods wrote me and asked if I'd >>like to present at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas >>this November. >>He obviously didn't have a clue about who I was or my research >>into the AA. He said he contacted me because you had recommended >>me. You don't know me and you haven't read my research, so why >>did you suggest me? >I suggested you for the gig because I have read your work and I >believe that any of us doing research deserve to be heard, and I >felt that it would be a good opportunity for you to reveal your >research. Maybe so but I still don't feel safe. >You see, unlike a lot of people in Ufology, I believe in letting >people have their say, even if I don't agree with them. If we >only focused on our own beliefs - and those beliefs were wrong - >the subject would go nowhere. Yes but if we focus on our own beliefs correctly and are correct then the subject will go forward. I think you're mistaken and resting your case on very flimsy evidence and headed for the trash heap of faulty reasoning, and I'm headed for that place reserved for correct people<g>where ever that might be. >You had a chance to reveal to a packed audience your >conclusions. I guarantee they would have listened carefully to >what you had to say. Now you've chosen not to speak for very odd >reasons that seem to have more to do with me than they do with >anything else - which is very bizarre! Are you frightened to be >in the same room with me? Inquiring minds want to know! I wouldn't choose to be in the same room with you. What would be the point? >>Of course now I'll have to decline the offer; and I also plan to >>stay away from Denney's. >Good for you; stick with Subway sandwiches; they are much healthier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Redfern To Speak In UK About His New Book From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:36:43 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:52:32 -0400 Subject: Redfern To Speak In UK About His New Book Hear Nick Redfern speak in the UK about his new book On the weekend of 19 to 21 August, Nick Redfern, author of the newly published book, "Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth At The Heart Of The Roswell Story", will be speaking at the annual "Weird Weekend" conference at Exeter, England. This is likely to be Nick's only lecture in the UK this year specifically on his book (which is published in the UK in August too). Organized by Jonathan Downes, the conference brings together
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Pharabod From: Jean-Pierre Pharabod <pha.jp.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:04:49 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:22:14 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Pharabod Hello, I already suspected such an explanation when I read, in Timothy Good's, Alien Liaison, (1991), the testimony of Sergeant Melvin E. Brown, who was at Roswell in July 1947, as reported by one of his daughters (pages 86-87): "He told us they were nothing to be scared of. They were friendly-looking and had nice faces. They looked Asian, he said, but had larger heads and no hair. They looked a yellowy colour. He was frightened a bit, because he knew he shouldn't be doing it, so he only had a quick glimpse. But he said they could have passed for Chinese - they had slanted eyes." "looked Asian", "yellowy colour" (not grey !), "could have passed for Chinese", "slanted eyes"..... Does Nick Redfern know of this testimony? If not, this information could help him.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 STF On Redfern's Body Snatchers In The Desert From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:29:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:29:27 -0400 Subject: STF On Redfern's Body Snatchers In The Desert Source: Joshua "Illinois" Shapiro's Aquarian Age Information Central http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html June 2005 Review of Nick Redfern's Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story Paraview-Pocket (Simon & Schuster) Paperback by Stanton T. Friedman Nick Redfern has written several important UFO books and has spent time at many archives in gathering information that the armchair theorists don't bother with since their primary approach is "Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up." I read the book with expectations that something new had really been turned up about Roswell. Nick has talked to a number of people who told him interesting and complicated stories that supposedly lead one to the conclusion that the so called Roswell Incident did not involve an alien spacecraft or a Mogul balloon or a weather balloon radar reflector combination. Instead, what crashed was a Horton Brothers Flying wing supported by a huge Japanese designed balloon and containing disabled or genetically damaged Japanese who were used as human guinea pigs to provide data on the effects of radiation for use in the NEPA Program. NEPA stands for Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft. There was indeed such a program beginning right after the war with Fairchild Aircraft and Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. There were serious concerns about how the world would react to the use of human subjects especially in light of the Nuremberg trials which revealed many unethical Nazi medical experiments on human subjects. People were kept in pressure chambers to see how long they could withstand low pressures. They were kept in freezing water to see how long they could stand the low temperatures. Obviously pilots at high altitude might be inadvertently subjected to low pressure in the case of accidents. Unspeakable things were done to people many of whom would have died in less agony in gas chambers. Unfortunately, Nick focuses on the testimony of whistleblowers. His major source, the Colonel, apparently approached him at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Henderson Nevada in November 2003.We don't know who he is or how carefully he has been vetted. A second source was a woman, the Black Widow, who claimed to have worked at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and to have been aware of bodies being used for terrible experiments and that these were the ones found at Roswell or perhaps the Plains of San Augustine.We don't know who she is or how much evidence has been directly obtained to validate her story There were other sources such as Salter and Barker. The Colonel certainly had a lot to say,.even if we don't know which of any of his many claims were true. He seemed to be familiar with the history of UFOs in the USA and aware of the primary people in the field. There unfortunately have been a number of whistleblowers whose testimony has been shown to be baloney including Robert Scott Lazar, Frank Kaufmann, Guy Kirkwood, Michael Wolf Kruvant, and others such as Lt. Colonel Philip J. Corso almost none of whose claims had been substantiated in the book "The Day After Roswell." Nick has also been given a bum steer about the NEPA project and the radiation shielding problems associated with it. He states that the project was cut back in 1957 and finally cancelled in 1961 after President Kennedy took office. In actuality, the GE ANP (General Electric Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program) was at fullest bloom in the 1956-1960 time frame. I know because I worked there in the Radiation shielding unit as a nuclear physicist from September 1956 until November 1959. The budget for 1958 alone was $100,000,000. 3500 people were employed full time of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists. This was far more money and manpower than was spent at Fairchild and Oak Ridge in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Nick keeps referring to concerns about radioactivity and contamination. These were not the shielding concerns. Instead, it was the neutrons and gamma rays emitted by the reactor that were of concern. Usually split shielding was to be used with some all around the reactor (typically under 3 feet long and 5 feet in diameter) and more placed between the crew compartment, typically far ahead in the airplane, and the reactor. There was also serious concern about both neutrons and gamma rays leaving the reactor shield assembly in directions other than towards the crew, but being scattered by both the atmosphere and structures past the crew shielding. An ANP system has to operate at much higher temperatures than do ship reactors and radiation heating in the shielding is a major problem. GE was working on a direct cycle system in which air goes from the jet engine compressor to the reactor and is heated to temperatures around 1800 =B0F and then exhausted through the turbine to create thrust. In terrestrial applications of nuclear energy one can use lead to provide shielding against the very penetrating gamma rays and polyethylene or other materials containing hydrogen to shield against neutrons. One also prefers to capture the neutrons slowed down by the hydrogen in something like boron which emits a big alpha particle which doesn't go anywhere. All too often neutron capture in many metals and in air results in the creation of more energetic gamma rays. For ANP lead and plastic have much too low a melting point. Lead which has a specific gravity of only 11.3 grams per cc would require a large thickness and since the weight goes up rapidly of material around a cylinder with increasing thickness, one would prefer a much denser material such as an alloy of Tungsten which has an SG of 19.3 and a very high melting point. The question than becomes what standard should be set for the allowable doses of neutrons and gamma rays to the crew and how to meet the weight limits. Unlike in a nuclear bomb blast where the exposure is very high for a short time, crews of a nuclear airplane would be expected not to have degradation in the their performance over a long period of time. One of the major benefits of an ANP system is essentially unlimited range because the reactor would not be refueled for thousands of hours. An important factor here is that animals including humans have built in mechanisms for repairing the damage caused by radiation. Thus a high dose taken in a short time will be much more damaging than the same total dose in an exposure lasting for weeks or months. Nick does point to various human tests of aviation biology associated with planes flying higher and faster, how to bail out at high altitude and speed without freezing, how to provide protection against excessive acceleration, low air pressure, low temperatures at altitude, cold water when winding up in the ocean. However he never mentions that there was a lot of research being done on biological effects of radiation because of the need to know how quickly ground crews could go in on a battlefield on which a nuclear weapon had been exploded. How high would radiation levels be in aircraft that had either dropped a nuclear weapon or had to fly near the mushroom clouds of a weapon dropped by somebody else? There are many different tests that can be run such as with animals in enclosures exposed to radiation sources (gamma rays only) in an open field. There are few useful sources of neutrons other than an operating reactor. One can feed animals radioactive materials to increase the internal radiation levels. Millions of medical tests are done every week with the administration of specific radionuclides to test body functions such as the kidneys or thyroid. Obviously one wants the half life to be short. Many humans were exposed to Plutonium, which despite the terrible press, it has had, did not result in noticeable life shortening. There was a major effort made to determine the radiation exposures of the Japanese exposed in 1945 at Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the bomb itself and then later from fallout. Doctors have to know how much radiation people can handle without severe damage when being treated for cancer using either an accelerator or a radioisotope such as Cobalt 60. Of particular importance is that Nick never mentions William Randolph Lovelace who was head of aviation biology for Wright field during World War II. Afterwards he was on their Aviation Biology Committee while back running the Lovelace clinic. He even jumped out of an airplane at 42,000 feet to determine how soon one should open one's parachute without freezing to death on the way down. He and his family had founded the Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque to be kind of the Mayo Clinic of the Southwest. They had many government contracts to evaluate animals such as sheep which had been exposed to radiation. They did a lot of classified work for the government. I believe that they would have done some initial evaluation of the bodies found near the crash on the Brazel ranch and in the Plains. They had the competence, were close by, and had the security clearances. To test shielding materials one places them in various combinations adjacent to a known source of both neutrons and gamma rays and measures dose rates within the assemblages and outside of them. Two different kinds of shielding tests were run to evaluate the effects of scattering and the production of so- called secondary gamma rays by capture of some of these neutrons. Several flights were made with a modified huge B-36 bomber in which a small low power water cooled nuclear reactor (called ASTR for Aircraft Shield test reactor) was operated and measurements were made as a function of altitude within a heavily shielded crew compartment and in chase planes flying nearby. The reactor had absolutely nothing to do with the propulsion of the B-36. The flights originated at Convair, Fort Worth, Texas, which also had a small similar reactor in a rotating test facility in which various arrays of materials could be placed. The reactor was operated by Convair people who were paid by GE to run the tests. I spent months there as the GE Rep specifying the arrangements of often exotic test materials to be evaluated. There were also tests conducted on various engine alloys to see how radioactive they would become when exposed to neutrons. There was also built at Oak Ridge a Tower Shielding Facility with four tall towers. A reactor shield assembly could be hoisted up well over 100 feet along with a crew compartment and measurements made as a function of altitude (to avoid the effect of the ground) and separation distance. Nick is clearly aware of the testimony of Major Jesse Marcel of what was observed on the Foster Ranch and of Barney Barnett in the plains of San Augustine. A big Japanese balloon and a Horton flying wing don't fill the bill. Most Horton craft were actually made out of wood, but there was nothing about the wing and balloon that matched the eyewitness testimony and the complete absence of conventional components as noted by Jesse -- nor the huge area covered by the small pieces of wreckage. Nick accepts the testimony of the late Frank Kaufmann about the shape of a saucer from north of Roswell. He seems unaware that Frank's original testimony about the shape seems to have been taken from a drawing on the cover of Popular Mechanics of the TR 3 airplane, and that Frank's testimony has been totally discredited, even by his formerly staunchest proponent, Dr. Kevin Randle. I am reminded of a call I received from a man claiming that, when he was young, he saw a picture on the front page of a certain Alabama newspaper showing the Roswell crashed saucer and alien bodies out in the NM desert. He even remembered the name of the librarian who let him look at the newspapers. I checked with the paper. As I expected, it indeed had a picture dealing with Roswell on the front page -- one of those taken in General Ramey's office. No saucer and no bodies. I think he believed what he told me to be true. It wasn't. The analogy comes to mind of a brick building that has just been demolished. Lots and lots of bricks. Without any other knowledge, one could obviously construct a wide variety of different structures. Nick has collected a lot of bricks. The picture he has constructed doesn't seem to match the facts obtained from witnesses. It may well be that the Colonel and the Black Widow really believe they were telling the truth. I think it is just as likely that one or both were providing disinformation. If it doesn't fit, one must acquit. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 AUFORN News No.1 From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:09:21 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:42:04 -0400 Subject: AUFORN News No.1 AUFORN News No.1 DISCLOSURE AUSTRALIA PROJECT AUFORN auspired Disclosure Australia Project has continued to uncover news breaking and at time contradictive information received by the Australian Government and military organisations. This has been due to the tireless work of Keith Basterfield and the Adelaide-based research group, AURA. Contrary to the Australian Defence Force ceasing the recording and investigation of UFO sightings with members of the community in 1993, we are still uncovering documents which verifies their continued involvement in UFOs and is very much active in the pursuit of both scientific and physical evidence. In a previous issue of the Australasian Ufologist magazine, Keith Basterfield had announced that American 'black' aircraft have been unexpectedly discovered in government archives, and that indeed the USAF U2 program had extended itself to Australia during October 1960 to March 1963. These aircraft were based at Laverton, Victoria. During a recent visit to the United States, Diane and I were quietly eating our breakfast at a hotel in Roswell when a nearby couple asked where we originated from. As soon as he realised we were Australians he commented that he had served in all three armed forces (Army, Air Force and Navy - in that order) as an engineer. During his time with the USAF, he was based in Laverton for three years servicing U2s. He further stated that these aircraft were used over the Antarctic with the intended purpose of detecting Russian forces in that area. At no time did we mention that we were part of an Australian UFO Group or part of an FOI attempt in retrieving UFO reports. This might explain some UFO reports over southern Victoria and Tasmania. What a small world! Below are reports that reflect only a small portion of what the Disclosure Australia Project has uncovered. 28 April 1952 Woomera West SA 0345hrs 15secs 3wits Three men waiting for transport noticed at 45-degrees southeast, a light in the sky. This light was moving west-northwest parallel to the ground, lighting up clouds and the surrounding terrain. It was visible through breaks in the clouds. The bus driver remarked: "They are firing rockets early today." One witness replied: "It was not a rocket." The light had an estimated size of one third that of the full moon. 27 September 1952 Woomera SA c.2050hrs 5secs 5wits Five witnesses were at the Woomera West Open Air Theatre. They sighted an object, variously described as a 'cigar', an 'airship' and 'cylindrical' with an 'exhaust' at the rear. It travelled horizontally from west to east, possibly northwest to southeast. One witness reported, "...two portholes with internal lighting". It was moving quickly, with no noise noted. 8 October 1952 Woomera SA 1345hrs 44 minutes 1wit 3 While tracking an aircraft, a target was acquired by radar. However, no visual object could be seen by the radar operator. "The signal to noise ratio was at least 5 to 1 which is similar to that obtained from a large aircraft." At one stage between 1345 and 1400hrs the target approached to within one mile. Between 1405 and 1429hrs the operator tracked the invisible target at heights between 1500 and 5600 feet. "At times during the movement of the target, smaller targets seemed to detach themselves from the main target and drift away." Weather was fine, 5/8 high cloud at 25000 feet-84 degrees F, north wind at 25-30 mph. Comments by the Security Officer included (note it snowed briefly at 0900hrs the next day): "...it was most probably that the snow cloud had some connection. However, the possibility of a neutron cloud is not ruled out..." (1) A ground plot of the radar target was located on the file. 14 November 1953 Woomera SA 0145hrs 1wit Sighting of a 'glare' believed to be an aircraft. 5 May 1954 Woomera SA c.1630hrs 5 mins 3 wits Three relevant documents were found, being statements by the two men involved and a covering letter forwarding the statements, from the Superintendent Long Range Weapons Establishment Range, Woomera, to the 'Chief Superintendent'. This letter included the statement: "The persons reporting were separated by a distance of approximately three hundred yards and give corroborative accounts of what each observed." For more details and information refer to the Disclosure Australia website at http://disclosure.freewebpage.org. or http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Disclosure_Australia.html 1800 HOTLINE SIGHTING REPORTS 1800-772288 National Free Call Hotline Number: At no cost to you, ring the National Hotline number to report a UFO sighting from anywhere in Australia, and leave your contact details. We'll get the closest AUFORN representative in your area to contact you ASAP. AUGUST 1969 ADELAIDE (ADELAIDE AIRPORT), SA (RADAR TRACE) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3792 27.12.04) In August 1969, Alan was a final year trainee working a radar head dish at the Adelaide airport. He was tracking a Fokker Friendship en route to Kangaroo Island from the greater Adelaide area. An object appearing on the radar screen is called a paint and the nature of the paint gives a fair indication of the size, and the speed can be ascertained from each twelve second rotation. When the Friendship reached the estimated area of Edithburgh, a paint more than twice the size of the plane and even bigger than that of a 727's paint, suddenly appeared. As the plane approached, a smaller paint emerged slowly into a direct collision path. The objects then seemingly passed over each other without incident. Thereafter the smaller craft turned about and moved back to the much larger object. In one rotation the large paint moved 70 nautical miles and in the next rotation another 70 miles but by the next rotation was out of range. There were no other observers and some modifications to the raw signal were automatically made in order to remove false reading before air traffic controllers receive the signal. There were no reports from the Friendship's crew or passengers of anything abnormal and the caller did not mention it at the time. Dominic McNamara AUFORN SA 20.01.05 CENTRAL COAST (AVOCA BEACH), NSW 0300hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3828 20.01.05) On 20 January 2005, at 3.30 am, Jeff, an amateur astronomer, was unable to sleep so he went outside to view the sky. He noticed three small lights (similar to the size of a star) very high in the sky. He thought at first they were satellites but quickly realised that this was not possible as they were flying in a triangular formation and approx. 100 metres apart. He stated that the lights were travelling slightly slower than satellites, in a northwest to southwest direction. There was no noise and the sky was moonless and dark. Jeff watched the formation for 1 to 1102 minutes until it disappeared from sight. He had never seen anything like it before. Veronica, INFODIG Bet. NOVEMBER - DECEMBER 1952 or 1953 STREAKY BAY, SA 2030hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3954(?) 05.04.05) Between November and December 1952 or 1953, Noel and his brother-in-law were harvesting crops near Streaky Bay when a part broke on their harvester. They decided to fix the harvester that night so they could continue harvesting next day. They drove to a neighbour's place who was the local agent for the required part. It was about 8.30 pm. As they approached the neighbour's place (about a mile away) they both noticed a large brilliant white light hovering a few hundred feet above his house. They were so rattled that they stopped the car and got out to take a better look. As soon as they were out of the car the light headed towards them. Noel admitted he was very frightened. The light then hovered above the two men for approx. 30-60 seconds before it moved away at great speed towards the sea and then disappeared. When I asked Noel how the object disappeared, (did it blink out, sink into the sea or get smaller as it moved away from them) he said it went so fast it was out of sight in a matter of seconds. Deb Payne, AURA/AUFORN SA 1956 or 1957 Bet. SCALES BAY & STREAKY BAY, SA 0000hrs (NL) (Source: This report is a result of 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3954(?) 05.04.05) In 1956 or 1957 at midnight one Saturday, Noel and his wife were driving home to Scales Bay from Streaky Bay after a night out at the movies. About twelve miles out of Streaky Bay, Noel noticed what appeared to be a red tail light of a car in front of him. He thought this was odd because the road was fairly straight, there wasn't a side entry road and the light appeared out of nowhere. He decided to speed up to get a better look but as soon as he did this the light sped up at the same rate, so Noel eased back on the accelerator. When he slowed down the light slowed down, when he sped up the light sped up. It was as if the light was mimicking his movements. At the store in Calca, he turned on to a road leading to his homestead at Scales Bay. At this time no one else lived on this road except for Noel and Melva, but the light was still ahead of them, which he thought was very unusual at midnight in the middle of nowhere on a road where he was the only resident. About half a mile along the Scales Bay road the red light took off at great speed out to sea. I asked Noel why he had waited so long to report this sighting and he explained that he had heard Dominic MacNamara (AUFORN, AURA Adelaide) on ABC radio and this prompted him to call. Deb Payne, AURA/AUFORN SA APRIL 1998 BRISBANE (DECEPTION BAY), QLD c.MIDNIGHT (NL) (Source: Personal Investigation by Robert Frola) In April 1998, Allan had gone to the bathroom around midnight when he noticed moving stars from his window. The stars were yellow/red in the northwestern sky, positioned three above and two below, low on the horizon. He called his wife, who also saw them. 11.07.98 BRISBANE (DECEPTION BAY), QLD 2000hrs (NL) (Source: Personal Investigation by Robert Frola) On 11 July 1998, Allan's wife was outdoors around 8 pm when she saw four lights close together. They were moving across the northern sky towards the northwest. A fifth light joined them and together they shot upwards like a flare. They seemed to rotate positions ending with a total of about ten lights before they disappeared. DECEMBER 2004 MELBOURNE (BROADMEADOWS), VIC (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4812(?) May 2005) Ray read about the Fern Tree Gully sightings in the local weekend newspaper, and the reports reminded him of his sighting of the same thing, in that same direction, but about six months ago, but from his location. So he thought he better make a report. He also saw formations and patterns that resembled kites and similar shapes that changed as they moved. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 14.02.05 HOBART (OATLANDS), TAS 0010hrs (Identified as an Air Ambulance) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3872) On 14 February 2005 at 12.10 am in Oatlands, the witness saw a UFO and reported it to TUFOIC. Investigation into the sighting found that the source of the UFO was an Air Ambulance flight from Hobart to Launceston. Keith Roberts, TUFOIC 27.03.05 SYDNEY (SILVERWATER), NSW 0050hrs (CE1) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3936(?)) Posted 12.05.05) Peter lives at Silverwater, on the Morriset East Peninsula, and was awoken at about 12.50 am on 27 March 2005 by what he thought were howling dogs. When he went outside he realised it was a party going on in a neighbouring backyard and noticed how full the moon was. After watching the sky for a couple of minutes, he noticed a bright object to the right of the moon, which at the time he thought was a star or planet. He then realised that the 'star' was more of a cylindrical shape and it moved across the path of a smaller star from right to left. He then got a pair of binoculars and focused on the object and could see a round object with what looked like pebbles inside it. He decided to go inside and wake his wife to also witness the event and she viewed it through the binoculars, agreeing with Peter that this was no star! The object then went from the left to the right then to its original position when he first sighted it. Peter described that the object at arms distance would have been about the size of a twenty cent piece and in the 5 o'clock position with his index finger. When he and his wife went to bed at about 1.30 am, the object was still visible. Peter served as a Merchant Seaman and had witnessed a couple of strange things at sea around 1982-1985 and feels that he confidently knows the difference between planes, stars, planets etc. He was very impressed that this call was followed up as he rang Telstra Assistance and told the girl he had just seen a UFO and what number did he need to call. She then connected him to the 1800 number and he left his message. When I phoned him, his first reply was, 'Oh, you people are real!' Kellie, UFOSWS 18.04.05 CANBERRA (FISHWICK), NSW 1250hrs (DO) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3741(?)= 12.05.05) Brendan reports on behalf of his flatmate, who is not ready to come forward. On 18 April 2005, the flatmate's mother and sister were visiting him from Albury and they attended a kite festival where he filmed the kites with his digital handycam. When they got home he began to rewind the tape for viewing when the tape would not rewind all the way back to the beginning; something which had never happened before. He manually rewound the tape frame by frame and what appeared in three frames of the tape absolutely puzzled them. Brendan, who has seen the footage, states that as clear as a bell a silver disc-shaped object with a domed top is clearly visible. It was flying low and fast with the sun reflecting off it. They were unaware of any associated noise and did not see it with the naked eye. This is obviously still under investigation and I will keep you posted with updates as they come in. Larraine Cilia, Vice President UFOSWS 13.05.05 MELBOURNE (FERNTREE GULLY), VIC 2225hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code Not Assigned)= On 13 May 2005, Tim was at a Pizza shop in Mountain Gate, when at about 10.25 pm, he and about 30 other people saw a group of lights travelling in formation. At first there were about 15 lights, then later on there were about seven or eight left. There was no sound associated with the lights. They were in a formation like the Southern Cross, and changed their formation as they moved. Then they formed symbol shapes below symbol shapes, reminding the witnesses of Chinese writing. The movements were very smooth, and seemed to involve tiny circular movements. They were orange or amber coloured, and about seven times brighter than the stars. Tim is now not as sceptical as he was. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 13.05.05 MELBOURNE (FERNTREE GULLY), VIC 2227hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4800(?)) On 13 May 2005, at 10.27 pm, Kathy saw eight or ten lights that looked like little balloons with lights on them, which then faded away. They were seen for about 10-15 minutes. They seemed to be in a line, and made no sound. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 13.05.05 MELBOURNE (BORONIA), VIC 2242hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4801(?)) On 13 May 2005, at 10.42 pm, Renee saw a kite formation which changed gradually into a rectangle as it went, and some of the lights making up the formation faded from view as they ascended. They were all red, and slowly ascending, and very bright. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 13.05.05 MELBOURNE (BORONIA), VIC 2345hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4803(?)) On 13 May 2005, at 11.45 pm, Colin reported seeing only one light, moving around, level with the bottom of the Southern Cross, around 5-10-degrees southeast at 40-degrees elevation. It lasted about 10 minutes. It was unusual, not a plane, it moved to the left and back to the right again, faded in and out in intensity, and was orange or red. His parents saw it also in Montrose, a nearby suburb. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 14.05.05 SALE, VIC 2112hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4810(?)) On 14 May 2005, at 9.12 pm, the witness was outside having a smoke when he saw the object and called to some other people to come outside to see it. He described it as a large white light going from east to west, then it turned and went off to the north and disappeared. It was heading away from the RAAF base, but made no sound and travelled faster than any aircraft. It also turned very sharply off to the north. The air base had nothing going on at the time. Everyone who saw it agreed that it was very unusual, and resembled no known aircraft. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 16.05.05 MELBOURNE (BEECHWORTH), VIC 2045hrs (Identified as the star Canopus) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4820(?)) On 16 May 2005, at 8.45 pm, a friend called the witness to tell him to go outside and have a look at an unusual object in the sky. It was at about 20-degrees elevation and due southwest. It was the star, Canopus. George Simpson AUFORN VIC 19.05.05 GOLDEN GROVE STATE PARK, SA 2315hrs (NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 4822(?)) On 19 May 2005 at 11.15 pm at the Golden Grove Skate Park, two men saw a flash of 'clear' sky in the dark which lasted for a few seconds, during which they noticed a large dish or round object in the sky. They were about two kilometres from home where the partner of one of the men also noticed the flash but did not notice any objects. According to the men, the object simply disappeared, but they did hear a beeping noise. The men freaked as to what happened and were quite shocked. Dominic McNamara AUFORN SA AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST MAGAZINE JULY-AUGUST 2005 ISSUE Australasian Ufologist Vol.9 No.2 features the following articles - Vasumazulu Credo Mutwa and the Alien Agenda A report on Credo Mutwa, an African Medicine Man, and his thoughts on the extraterrestrial presence on Earth.. 'Peculiar Phenomena', V-2 Rockets - and UFORB Retaliation.=85Part 3 Linda Moulton Howe looks at the animal mutilations phenomenon. New Religious UFO Movements: Extraterrestrial Salvation in Contemporary America... Part 1 Explores the notion that the Raelian Religion, the Aetherius Society and the Unarius Academy of Science display elements found within other religious groups that have been labelled differently and that the term Flying Saucer Cults is an incorrect term. A Tasmanian UFO Mystery With the unwitting help of the media, the Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre, uncovers some remarkable sightings in the Melton Mowbray area. Nibiru: The Solution For years, Andy Lloyd has puzzled over the many anomalous and often intractable problems presented by Zecharia Sitchin's Nibiru. Andy explores, through beautifully designed diagrams, his highly unorthodox and alternative theory. The Cynthia Appleton Contacts (1957-1959)....Part 2 The continuing story of Cynthia's amazing contact experiences. Hair of the Alien - The DNA Paradigm Bill Chalker is in the forefront of DNA profiling study of biological material in Australia, and perhaps the world. He uses the Khoury case as a potent touchstone, and examines evidence in cases from diverse locations around the world. Plus all the regular contributions by Diane Harrison (AUFORN), Robert Frola (AUFORN), George Simpson (AUFORN VIC), Keith Basterfield (AURA), Rebekah Prole (Independent Investigator), Dominic McNamara (AURA/AUFORN) and Jo Kent (AUFORN QLD). Australasian Ufologist Magazine welcomes research contributions and well-based creative speculation, news, reviews, experiments and indeed anything that can further progress our understanding of the UFO phenomenon. "Unpopular" contributions are welcome. Submissions and news items can be sent to ufologist.nul AUFORN MEETINGS BRISBANE, QLD - Springwood Community Centre at corner of Cinderella Drive and Vanessa Blvd, Springwood. First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 5 August, 7 October and 2 December GOLD COAST, QLD - Community Centre, Lawson Street, Southport (next to RSL). First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 1 July, 2 September and 4 November MELBOURNE, VIC - Clayton RSL, 193 Carinish Road, Clayton. Second Sunday of the month, 7.00 pm Next Meeting: 11 September, and 11 December CONTACT DETAILS www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn ufologist.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:16:18 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:34:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:53:13 -0400 >Subject: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure >Some of you may recall that about 2 months ago I provided a >sort-of review of Project Beta, and the new book, Exempt From >Disclosure. >Those of you who have read the new book, Exempt From Disclosure >and those of you who haven't, will find Hawk Tales illuminating >or exhilarating.... or perhaps even disappointing... but >definitely not mundane or uninteresting..... >http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales >(downloard 880K WORD document) Bruce and All, I have read the two books, with interest. I wonder if it is a pure coincidence that they were published at almost the same time, since there is a large common ground between them. However, if Project Beta is highly praised, Exempt From Disclosure is not - to say the least. I read it first and I was disapointed by what looked like very sloppy writing. So it is tempting to reject it all as nonsense. But, after thinking about it again, I feel that it probably contains a certain measure of true information. I note that at least some informations are the same in the two books. The curriculum of Richard Doty, for instance. So, it is reasonable to suppose that at least some informations are correct in the book of Collins and Doty... Project Beta is clearly a work of better quality, but I remain somewhat dubitative as to the purpose of the book. Is it to do away with all UFO "conspiracy" stories, as pure fabrications ? I gather that many readers understand it that way, and that's what Nick Redfern suggests (I am coming back on this in a next message). But the book refrains actually from discarding
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:00 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:39:17 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:16 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:21:40 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>I have begun to read you long interview, but I have stopped >>half way, having already a couple of questions and criticisms. >>First, the confusion in Roswell with a "flying saucer" seems >>just as unbelievable as for any other type of balloon. A balloon >>is a balloon, even a very big one. Or a fragment of it. The same >>remark applies to a small craft, either wooden or metallic, or >>to a fragment of it. >With regard to the issue of why the people at Roswell couldn't >tell a balloon from a flying saucer, you're not realizing the >one, key thing that so many other researchers don't realize (or >take into consideration the significance of either). >That's the big thing: why couldn't they tell a balloon from a >UFO (even a big balloon)? >The simple answer is that this occurred little more than a week >after the first UFO sighting by Kenneth Arnold. At that time, >there was no UFO UpDates, no Net, no UFO Magazine, nothing, no >UFO history, no books on the subject, etc., etc. >So in other words, there was no way that anyone - only days >after Arnold - knew that flying saucers weren't made like >balloons, precisely because there was no history to the subject >in place for them to work with and make accurate comparisons. >Today, we might make an educated guess on what a crashed saucer >would look like because we have 60 years of reports to deal >with. >You tell me how guys would specifically not know that saucers >were not made of balloon like materials when the subject was >barely a week old?! Nick, Yes, I say that. I don't think there was a bit of a chance that the Air Force officers at Roswell, the elite of the Air Force, could have been confused by debris of balloons, gondolas or gliders to the point of issuing the famous press release which announced proudly, contrary to basic military rules of restraint and secrecy, that they had found one of those mysterious "flying disks", about which there were plenty of reports in the press. The fact that it was just ten days after Kenneth Arnold should have made them even more cautious. So, there was at least "something big", and it was not a gondola with Japanese prisoners. And, had they made such a terrible blunder, I don't think that Colonel Blanchard, for one, would have pursued his brillant career, up to the grade of four star General. >>And the same remark applies to the discovery of a human body, be >>it of a genetically ill person, and even badly damaged by a >>sinister experiment such as dropping him fom high altitude >>without protection. That is still very far from making an >>"alien" body! >True, but it's made clear that some of these people were >physically handicapped. No disrespect here, but they looked >unusual to begin with. Then in flight suits, decomposing after a >day in the desert? Seen at a distance near a weird device? Of >course, people will think it's aliens. No, I cannot agree on that either. A human body, even genetically handicapped, remains a human body. BTW, this remark applies to people with progeria, which do not look at all like the strange body of the AAF (whatever it is). >>Another big problem with your story is when the DIA informer >>tells you that the AF intelligence favored UFO crashed stories, >>just in order to cover-up sinister experiments with japanese war >>prisoners. >>The sad fact is, there have been in the past, criminal experiments >>such as deadly irradiations, but they were finally made public! >Yes but these are far more controversial tests, because the >further you dig into all this you find the Unit 731 connections. >That is the crux of the cover-up. Not the crash as such but the >fact that it linked the people of the day with the scum at 731. >That was the damning secret that remains hidden to this day and >why these were far more sensitive than the already-declassified >experiments. I don't see why an experiment such as carrying war prisonners in a stratospheric gondola, or glider if you prefer, would be more damnable that those awfull tests of deadly irradiation, made on mentally retarded and abandonned people, which have been revealed and confirmed officially by the Department of Health. Again, it does not make any sense to promote, at great risk of ridicule, stories of Mogul balloons and parachute tests. Even Philip Klass laughed about the parachute story. It does make sense, on the other hand, if is was to protect the big secret of a UFO crash recovery. >>The fact is that the Air Force, far from promoting UFO crashes, >>has done all it could to deny them. >That is true of today's Air Force certainly. But I have a whole >chapter in the book where it's quite clear the hand of >officialdom was at work spreading spurious crash reports to hide >all this decades ago. >Hell, even at the official website of the NSA, if you go to >their UFO section, download the PDF of a translation of a 60s >Russian mag article on UFOs. There's a piece in there on the >Spitsbergen crash. Someone in the murky official world has >circled the Spitsbergen story with the word "Plant". I have >loads of similar examples. I know these stories : Silas Newton (found by Karl Pflock), and the Spitsbergen "plant". But the major fact is, as noted by Jerry Clark, that after the Scully book, no serious researcher would want to hear about crash stories for the next 20 or 30 years. What kind of a promotion is that ? On the contrary, it had a fantastic debunking efficiency. >>Another aspect difficult to believe it the testimony of the >>"lady from Oak Ridge" : what a fantastic tale, of those >>mutilated bodies brought to Oak Ridge, and later sent to Los >>Alamos and who knows where! Hard to believe, Nick. >You say "hard to believe". I would say controversial, and for >that reason precisely why I spent years and quite literally >thousands of dollars traveling the US following this. So you >think it's harder to believe that than aliens crashing near a >location that was test flying captured Axis technology? Hmmm.... Thank you for having spent so much time and money inquiring. But some others have done that too, with different conclusions. Anyway, I have finished reading your long interview, and I have more comments to make. First on Roswell, and then more global remarks. Lets not enter into details, it would be too long. Except for Dr Lincoln Lapaz (not Lepaz). What you suggest, that he was an actor of this somber plot of Japanese prisonners in gondolas, does not fit with an important testimony, the one of Lewis Rickett, interviewed by Mark Rodheiger. I have the complete transcript, passed to me by Bob Durant, and there is nothing about balloons in there. LaPaz was after meteors and UFOs. Again, there is a general remark to make - sorry to insist on that. You say in your interview (p 23) : "It does not make sense to hide a UFO crash story behind some diabolical experiments with handicapped people". But yes, it does! It's a big stake. You say yourself that, if Roswell can be "cracked", then the whole story of UFO crashes and secret studies is going to collapse. I don't believe so, but that's what many people are going to conclude. They have already begun on this list. What bothers me most is that you don't really cite any identified witness. It's all hearsay, from a "DIA guy", etc. And, you know, all material proofs, paper trail, have been destroyed! On the UFO crash, there are dozens of known, credible witnessed, and it makes a big difference, even though material proof is lacking as well. More generally, there are many other opinions of yours which I cannot accept. To begin with, you seem quite sure that Kenneth Arnold saw a squadron of Horten-like prototypes. I am not prepared to buy that. So, after the "Pelicanists", are we going to have, again, to deal with the "Hortenists" ? About abductions, you point to a curious detail as a possible source of later confusion, which is that, in some experiments, back in 1947, the victims would have to wear eye protection giving them the look of big black alien eyes. Frankly, this is a very, very weak argument! I also remarked that you alluded to the testimony of Myrna Hansen, without naming her (why don't you give names when you can, since Greg Bishop talks about her at length in his book ?). You talk of "vague" remembrance of being carried in an underground base of some kind. But it was not vague at all. She was terrified by her abduction, and she was regressed by Dr Sprinkle just a few days later. BTW, about the book "Project beta" of Greg Bishop, you suggest that he has explained all the rumors like Dulce as disinfomation fabricated by AFOSI in Kirtland, to protect secret experiments from Bennewitz looking too close at them. I agree in the case of Dulce, but that does not mean that all the rest is rubbish. Greg Bishop leaves the door opened, to the reality of the Myrna Hansen testimony (he even cites another witness, the wife of a Cimarron policeman who saw the abduction and cattle mutilation), and even to real UFO observations by Bennewitz! About cattle mutilations, you mention the important study of Kolm Kelleher : no objection to that. But I don't accept the hypothesis that all these spectacular cattle mutilations, by the thousands, were just secretive military experiments! And what about the recent wave in Argenina ? Finally, you give your opinion on the nature of UFOs, as being "thought forms", and "tulpas". Well , that's an old story coming out again. I doubt very much that it's going to explain the big UFO picture. And with that, you can call me a "believer" if you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:40:28 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:40:14 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Balaskas >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:26:12 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:39:06 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Nick, Et Al, >>With regard to the "source" for the "knowledge that the Japanese >>were planning to attack the US with post-Fugo balloons that >>would have advanced gondolas beneath them that would be manned >>by "death defying Japanese", that originated from Radio Tokyo. >>They publicized the threat of converting their "entire naval >>forces" into a "suicide corps". >Yes, and the US newspaper clippings of the time show that the >U.S. Government looked into these claims, so argaubly files >would have been created. Hi Nick and Frank! Last October I visited the Smithsonian Institute's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center outside Washington, D.C. where they have a large collection of airplanes and spacecraft on public display. To my surprise I saw and took a picture of what I never before knew existed - a hybrid jet powered human piloted missile that the Japanese were building for a suicide attack on U.S. and allied forces during the anticipated invasion of Japan in 1945. See the URL below for further details about this Kugisho Ohka Model 22 human guided missile. Fortunately this invasion of the Japanese islands which would have produced casualities on both sides numbering 1 million or more was prevented when Canada mined, refined and provided the U.S. with the Uranium they needed for the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan. The Canadian Prime Minister was the first to announce to the world about this terrible new weapon, which although killed tens of thousands of Japanese civilians, helped to bring a quick end to the war with Japan - a war Canada declared before the U.S. did after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/kugisho_okha.htm Lots of still classified things, some very disturbing, happened during and shortly after the end of WWII, including the arrival of axis scientists and engineers to Canada and the testing of advanced captured aircraft technology here. One can also argue that the Avro Arrow and the secret flying saucer built here was the result of knowledge acquired, at least in part, from this captured foreign technology (and possibly alien technology too if we are to believe the accounts of crashed UFOs in Italy on 1933 and in Germany in 1937). Just because many things are noted to have happened at the same locations and during the same time periods does not necessarily establish any direct connections between these things - even when many of the people involved with the captured Japanese balloon/ aircraft tests happened to be the same ones involved with the Roswell UFO crash. Nick's sources may have provided him with much material that is very important and disturbing and which seems to explain some facts about the Roswell UFO crash but there is much to known before I can eliminate that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:44:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:42:32 -0400 Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Shell >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:42:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph On Thursday, June 23, 2005, at 05:27 AM, Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>wrote: >Right on John. I should point out that Betty Hill passed a >polygraph examination on a TV show with F.Lee Bailey a number of >years ago. There is an important point that is often missed when talking about polygraphs, voice stress analysis, and similar tests relying on physiological monitoring. Passing any of these tests does not indicate that the subject is telling the truth. What it does tell you is that the subject is saying what he/she _believes_ to be the truth. So, if Betty Hill passed a polygraph test, it only tells us that she believed what she was saying was the truth, not that it really was true.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Morris From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:59 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Morris Nick, Bob Shell has summed up nicely what I was about to write, so rather than go on about that point, can I throw in a couple of other points that are niggling me about this tale? Okay, correct me if I'm wrong but, your book on Roswell boils down to the "flying disc" being a super secret manned balloon experiment launched from Hollomon Air Force Base that went wrong. First minor niggle but, someone who was there at the time would have known about it, is that Hollomon Air Force Base wasn't Hollomon Air Force Base until Jan 1948, prior to that it was plain old Alamogordo Army Air Field and would have been when this alledged flight took place. Second and more important point is just when did this launch take place in relation to early July 1947? We know that the NYU (MOGUL) people were on site at AAAF from May 15th 1947 and Albert Crary's journal logs movements all the way through to their departure on July 8th, in fact Crary himself was in Roswell on July 10th as he drove back east. What has this got to do with it, you might ask? Well, balloons and a humungus balloon which this glider and crew's lifter would have to be, would need special care and attention in both inflation and handling at launch, in fact it would need the same conditions as did the NYU balloon launches. They would have been competing for the same launch conditions and times. Yet the NYU didn't seem to need any clearance to make their flights, they shedualed them as an when they needed. Furthermore many of these NYU flights were carrying high explosives to test the ground "listening stations" spread over the desert (one in Roswell). I have to ask myself if I were carrying out highly secret experimental manned balloon flights would I want to launch them at the same time as a bunch of University students - albeit in the emnploy of the DOD - who were sending aloft large amounts of high explosives and other balloons being tracked by chase planes, radar and optical theodolites? My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that this, coupled with the use of Hollomon as a reference, rather than AAAF, suggests
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:57:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:55:45 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Jean-Pierre Pharabod <pha.jp.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:04:49 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >I already suspected such an explanation when I read, in Timothy >Good's, Alien Liaison, (1991), the testimony of Sergeant Melvin >E. Brown, who was at Roswell in July 1947, as reported by one of >his daughters (pages 86-87): >"He told us they were nothing to be scared of. They were >friendly-looking and had nice faces. They looked Asian, he said, >but had larger heads and no hair. They looked a yellowy colour. >He was frightened a bit, because he knew he shouldn't be doing >it, so he only had a quick glimpse. But he said they could have >passed for Chinese - they had slanted eyes." >"looked Asian", "yellowy colour" (not grey !), "could have >passed for Chinese", "slanted eyes"..... >Does Nick Redfern know of this testimony? If not, this >information could help him. Hi Jean-Pierre Yes I did know of this, but many thanks for bringing attention to it. In fact, if you look at UFO literature, there are a lot of references to this here and there. In fact, let me quote you something from none other than Leonard Stringfield (arguably the most famous collector of crashed UFO tales), who wrote in the Epilogue to his 1991 Status Report VI: "One of the concerned informants called also to relate that he had been reliably informed of some new and nagging information that is in concurrence with the early, critical days of the foo fighters, ghost rockets, green fireballs and the New Mexican saucer crashes, all of which may have had a German World War II connection. One item of note was that a saucer had crashed in July of 1947 that had ties with a U.S. 'biological experiment'...the gist of his revelations was that the reported crashes of UFOs with 'alien' bodies in 1947 was the beginning of a colossal cover-up to hide secret U.S. rocket experiments." Yes this is anonymous (or to us it is; if we had access to Stringfield's files we might know the name), but the point is that this is similar. Incidentally, since the book was published
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:05:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:02:03 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:41:41 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Again, a foolish comment. Of course I've seen the AA - loads of >>times. In fact, when it surfaced in '95, on UK TV's Channel 4, I >>began digging into the story pretty deeply and shared some of my >>findings with Phil Mantle about the cameraman's potential identity. >>Maybe Phil is working this into his new book on AA? Ask him! >Have you seen the uncut version that can be viewed frame by >frame, in High and low resolution? Until you've seen that you're >in the dark. Why didn't you purchase the AA CD set, find a photo >of a Progeria sufferer and compare them. You'd soon see there's >no comparison. Hear, hear! It's time this progeria nonsense was shown up for what it is - pure, unadulterated, grade-A, BS!! The AA film creatures _do_ not_ resemble humans with progeria. I suggest that anyone who thinks otherwise is much overdue for their regular eye checkup. We know a lot about the AA film, those of us who have studied it frame by frame. With regard to the creatures, we have a long list of what they are not. We have a nearly blank page about what they are. >>>If you had, you might have noticed that no matter how retarded >>>or how congenitally deformed, or how abused and Japanese the >>>victims you imagined were, they would have all shown an >>>umbilicus and tits. The creature in the AA doesn't seem to have >>>either. >>Let me quote a section from an 1886 report of the Royal Medical >>and Chirurgical Society by the renowned English physician- >>surgeon Jonathan Hutchinson. Having examined a person with >>Progeria, he said: "He had no nipples, their sites being >>occupied by little patches of scar." >Then where are the umbilicus and scars? Where indeed? There are no scars where nipples would be. There is no umbilicus. These are two of the many reasons I say that they are vertebrate, but not human. Lack of an umbilicus indicates lack of an umbilical cord and placenta. The only mechanism we know of to produce such a being is oviparous reproduction, or its variant ovoviviparous reproduction. For the non-biologists aboard, oviparous means reproduction via eggs that mature outside the mother's body. Ovoviviparous means reproduction via eggs that mature inside the mother's body but without any connection to her body. Some reptiles reproduce in this way. Could these things be reptilians? Perhaps. But there is still the issue of polydactyl hands and feet. >But I'm very confused. Are you saying that the Santilli Alien >Autopsy is footage of a real event, and that all of the >researchers who've spent thousands of collective hours viewing >the footage are correct: that what we're seeing is real, but >we're just mistaken as to the nature of the creature? In other >words, the footage is real but there's nothing to fear from this >creature, since it's just a retarded, deformed kid being >butchered. I think the probability is that the footage is real. As has been said ad nauseam, if it was faked it would have made more sense to fake a 'conventional' alien (and probably easier). Whatever it is that is being dissected in the film is not a human in any way, shape or form. It is a humanoid, but of unknown lineage and origin. I'll address the "contact lens sunglasses" some other time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:05:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:59:58 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Again, a foolish comment. Of course I've seen the AA - loads of >>times. In fact, when it surfaced in '95, on UK TV's Channel 4, I >>began digging into the story pretty deeply and shared some of my >>findings with Phil Mantle about the cameraman's potential identity. >>Maybe Phil is working this into his new book on AA? Ask him! >Have you seen the uncut version that can be viewed frame by >frame, in High and low resolution? Until you've seen that you're >in the dark. Why didn't you purchase the AA CD set, find a photo >of a Progeria sufferer and compare them. You'd soon see there's >no comparison. Hear, hear! It's time this progeria nonsense was shown up for what it is - pure, unadulterated, grade-A, BS!! The AA film creatures _do_ not_ resemble humans with progeria. I suggest that anyone who thinks otherwise is much overdue for their regular eye checkup. We know a lot about the AA film, those of us who have studied it frame by frame. With regard to the creatures, we have a long list of what they are not. We have a nearly blank page about what they are. >>>If you had, you might have noticed that no matter how retarded >>>or how congenitally deformed, or how abused and Japanese the >>>victims you imagined were, they would have all shown an >>>umbilicus and tits. The creature in the AA doesn't seem to have >>>either. >>Let me quote a section from an 1886 report of the Royal Medical >>and Chirurgical Society by the renowned English physician- >>surgeon Jonathan Hutchinson. Having examined a person with >>Progeria, he said: "He had no nipples, their sites being >>occupied by little patches of scar." >Then where are the umbilicus and scars? Where indeed? There are no scars where nipples would be. There is no umbilicus. These are two of the many reasons I say that they are vertebrate, but not human. Lack of an umbilicus indicates lack of an umbilical cord and placenta. The only mechanism we know of to produce such a being is oviparous reproduction, or its variant ovoviviparous reproduction. For the non-biologists aboard, oviparous means reproduction via eggs that mature outside the mother's body. Ovoviviparous means reproduction via eggs that mature inside the mother's body but without any connection to her body. Some reptiles reproduce in this way. Could these things be reptilians? Perhaps. But there is still the issue of polydactyl hands and feet. >But I'm very confused. Are you saying that the Santilli Alien >Autopsy is footage of a real event, and that all of the >researchers who've spent thousands of collective hours viewing >the footage are correct: that what we're seeing is real, but >we're just mistaken as to the nature of the creature? In other >words, the footage is real but there's nothing to fear from this >creature, since it's just a retarded, deformed kid being >butchered. I think the probability is that the footage is real. As has been said ad nauseam, if it was faked it would have made more sense to fake a 'conventional' alien (and probably easier). Whatever it is that is being dissected in the film is not a human in any way, shape or form. It is a humanoid, but of unknown lineage and origin. I'll address the 'contact lens sunglasses' some other time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Watson From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:54:42 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:08:44 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Watson Hello and greetings, If only this was the end of Roswell. This story and others like
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:00:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:10:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Allan >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >>to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >>inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >>about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >>to Wright-Patterson AFB. If mainstream ufologists had adopted an >>objective approach from the beginning, firmly disowning the >>cranks and fantasists, no doubt the whole matter would have been >>cleared up years ago. >As the ufologists who took Roswell seriously are about to get >due credit for staying on the case and seeing it to what may now >be its extraordinary and significant conclusion, it is easy to >understand why the pelicanists, afloat on the same hot air that >carried their beloved Mogul balloons, are flapping wings and >squawking in helpless fury. >It is, however, funny to see militant skeptic John Harney as he >lectures _others_ on their alleged failure to take an "objective >approach." If Nick Redfern proves right, the many Roswell essays >that have filled the pages of Magonia (Harney's magazine) are >going to provide endless amusement to ufologists of the future. >At the very least they will serve as flight instructions. The >wise will learn from them exactly which birds not to fly with in >the future. What about the greater (far greater) number of pages in the early 1990s in IUR that endlessly promoted the ETH side of the Roswell affair, and in which Jerry Clark once assured us that the forthcoming first Randle/Schmitt book was going to lay to rest forever (or words to that effect) the idea that UFOs never crash. If Nick Redfern proves right are these writers going to pack their bags and head off for Zeta Reticuli?. The sequel to the first Randle/Schmitt book was that within 3 years this same duo produced another book "The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell" in which they presented a very different scenario. They even had the nerve to end their text with this gem: "When the dust settles, you'll find that we were right... again". If they had got it right the first time they would not have needed to alter dates and locations for their second book. They would not have needed to change the whole scenario or even publish a second book at all. Still, we need not expect any Roswell ETH diehards to repent because of Nick Redfern's 'revelations'. The latter are based entirely on second-hand & third-hand informants 50-55 years after the said events, with absolutely no documentation to support them. No Japanese bodies have turned up (or ever will) and no wrecked gliders (powered or unpowered) will either. As for documents that genuinely reveal anything, I do not expect a single page to appear. Why should they, when it is so easy to claim they were all destroyed? At least with the ETH Roswell books there were a few, though admittedly not many, first-hand witnesses. Nick's ideas may at first sound more acceptable than the ETH,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick`Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:01:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:32:24 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >What you provided was hearsay, nothing more. Hearsay? How are my interviews (that suggest a down-to-earth explanation) hearsay, when interviews that suggest an ET explanation are - in your view - corroboration and evidence? >But where exactly is the evidence? Your witness testimony is >nothing but hearsay. Do you have tapes and notes. Would you >share them with us? Can I conduct a VSA on any of this testimony >as I have done on most of my witness testimony. Yes I have all sorts of data: interview notes, files, tapes. Evidence? Ed, even the Air Force couldn't find any evidence to support its Mogul theory or crash test dummy theory! No ET- related documents related to Roswell have surfaced officially. I'll tell you what, I do have beyond what you call "hearsay", and to me this is the most important thing: two of the interviewees directed me to a number of highly intriguing files at the National Archives that would have been incredibly difficult to find had I not known where to look. These were not UFO files and were, in some cases, contained in truly massive file collections that would have taken an eternity to examine. They gave file numbers, names, authors, etc. The more significant of these files were: (a) a collection on very carefully worded files on summer 1947 experiments on "mutations at high altitude" that involved the Air Surgeon in 2 specific projects whose names I have never revealed and that I believe are the key to all this and that I am chasing down (b) An Oak Ridge file from 1947 that was deep in the radiation scandal files about 1947 experiments on dwarfs and people with Progeria. (c) This latter one might intrigue people more because we haven't discussed it until now but it's this: Most of the List will probably have heard of the famous, alleged UFO crash at Kingman, Arizona in 1953. One of the sources directed me to where to find a specific Kirtland Air Force Base file from 1956 that he said has a major bearing on this case. As those familiar with Kingman will know, the 'crash' allegedly occurred right in the middle of a series of atomic tests in Nevada, that were given the project name of Upshot-Knothole. One of the interviewees told me that there was no UFO crash at Kingman, but that there was a crash of a drone aircraft filled with a 'crew' of monkeys that was flown through a mushroom cloud to test for radiation that crashed, and that because of the radiation angle there was some security concerning the recovery, and a crashed UFO story was filtered out as this was Cold War and it was seen to be needed to be kept under wraps. An unusual scenario for sure. But how do we prove that? Well, following the lead from the source (by "lead" I mean I was provided the full file title, author name, Box number, etc., etc.), I found in the Archives a file titled, "Early Cloud Penetration" dated 27 January 1956. It reads: "In the event of nuclear warfare the AF is confronted with two special problems. First is the hazard to flight crews who may be forced to fly through an atomic cloud. Second is the hazard to ground crews who maintain the aircraft after it has flown through the cloud. In the 1953 Upshot-Knothole tests, monkeys were used so that experiments could be conducted on larger animals nearer the size of man. QF-80 drone aircraft were used, their speed nearly approximating that of current operational aircraft." So right in the same location and time of the Kingman crash, we have another aircraft - this time a drone - filled with small creatures (monkeys this time), right where a UFO and a little alien were supposedly found. Is it not, now, beginning to look as if everyone has been subjected to a big con for years, about the origins of these 'crashes'? Now, as for verification of sources, each of the sources showed me things that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fake. I am not talking about MJ style files. But yearly tax files that reflect their old employment; photographs at retirement parties at official installations with colleagues; pictures, in uniform, for official functions. In other words, the sort of things that most people collect through the years at work - such as Christmas party photos, tax files, etc. So, collectively, these people have intimate knowledge of certain files and more importantly where to find those files. I can assure you that, if I went on a vague hunt - with no leads - looking for obscure 1956 files on drone aircraft and monkeys; on Progeria; on "mutant experiments", I would probably still be looking now! That these people have the inside leads/directions on all this is, to me, significant. >That's just not good enough. In fact, it's total BS. No it's not. Ed, you are mad because the data and documents I found and the interviews/interviewees go against what you so badly want Roswell to be. Had they said something that was pro-ET or pro the AA as an ET event (even if without your opinion on what constitutes evidence) you would be supporting me. >None of your witnesses knew anything! They only alluded to things. >Do you have any tangible evidence from any of your witnesses? Again, I have evidence that they are who they claim to be, that they worked in the official places the claimed to work, they directed me to very obscure Archives files, I could go on and on..... This is a hell of a lot more than we have had from interviewees with opposing views on Roswell - and that even goes for the Air Force too, re. its Mogul and Dummy scenarios. >Are you saying that the Santilli Alien >Autopsy is footage of a real event, and that all of the >researchers who've spent thousands of collective hours viewing >the footage are correct: that what we're seeing is real, but >we're just mistaken as to the nature of the creature? I wonder if the scenario is this: that the film is a fake, but specifically made by the Govt. They make the body in the film look somewhat like the real bodies, they release the film, it then gets dismissed on a massive scale as a hoax. Then if someone like me comes along with testimony about Progeria, 1947, etc., and makes a connection between similarities between the real bodies and the film's body, then the fact that the film is a fake casts doubt on the stories I've been told. A typical Intel ploy. What I will tell the List is this: I am hot on the trail, right now, of an early 1947 operation - that was canceled, as it caused nothing but eye-infections and problems for those involved - that was focused upon protecting soldiers on the battlefield from flash-blindness in the event of an atomic-war. The plan was to try and create a tinted eye lens (not unlike a larger contact lens) to see if it offered any protection. It didn't. As I said, it just caused problems and was canceled. But we have 1947 experiments with black eye-lenses for flash blindness, mutant experiments at high altitude, newspaper reports on advanced and large Japanese balloons with small pilots. I could go on and on..... Plus, Mac Tonnies made a very good point: it's not a nice subject, but I've been doing a lot of research into air crashes, etc., and how people are affected. It's quite true that in a high-speed crash, at times, the outer body can suffer surprisingly little damage, but the internal organs are so radically traumatized that you get internal movement of organs, pulverizing of organs on a massive scale, that when a person is opened up you have organs in the wrong place, massive disruption of how things should look. Did you know that Jenny Randles was approached in 1986 with an offer of files that contained photographs that looked in her words, "chillingly similar" to the AA footage? The important thing is that the offer to Randles had all the hallmarks of a classic disinfo ploy. >>Actually, I have. I just disagree. >And what do you disagree with? Please be specific. I disagree with the scenario because I think the one I have presented is more likely, and there is stronger supportive data. Bear in mind the book was only published 2 days ago and there's already a lot of new data coming and there's a lot I didn't publish too - for space reasons, mainly. Do you really believe that story that the cameraman had this footage under his bed for years?! >Maybe so but I still don't feel safe. You don't feel safe? What on earth do you think I am going to do - sprinkle cyanide on your cornflakes!? Ed, that is a truly, truly bizarre thing for you to say - "I don't feel safe." My God, what the List will make of you from that statement I shudder to think..... >Yes but if we focus on our own beliefs correctly and are correct >then the subject will go forward. Which is precisely why you should have accepted the offer to speak! You strongly believe the AA is real, as an alien event, and I respect your freedom to hold that opinion. But ironically, although I disagree with you, it was me that gave you the chance to explain, to a packed audience, why you felt it was real - and that could have helped you move forward. You chose not to because you don't feel safe. I gave you every opportunity to deliver a powerful lecture to an audience that would have listened very closely and you said, "No". Your decision. So I hope you never say people aren't giving you every opportunity to get your view across. They are. You are choosing not to take that opportunity. >I think you're mistaken and >resting your case on very flimsy evidence and headed for the >trash heap of faulty reasoning, and I'm headed for that place >reserved for correct people<g>where ever that might be. How wonderful for you, Ed. I'll be able to sleep well tonight, knowing that. >>I wouldn't choose to be in the same room with you. What would be >the point? Er... how about to debate the merits of the film? To get your views across to a packed audience, that might be able to provide
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:23:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:35:31 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:54:42 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >If only this was the end of Roswell. This story and others like >it have wasted the time of ufologists, but sold plenty of books >and films. What ufologists should be doing is interviewing and >helping the millions of suffering abductees out there in middle >America. Interviews with 'abductees' and stories about them have wasted the time of ufologists, but sold plenty of books and films. What ufologists should be doing is studying and interpreting the Roswell story.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:25:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:45:55 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:00 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >And, had they made such a terrible blunder, I don't >think that Colonel Blanchard, for one, would have pursued his >brillant career, up to the grade of four star General. As I point out in the book, Roswell did get "chewed-out" for putting the release out. >I don't see why an experiment such as carrying war prisonners in >a stratospheric gondola, or glider if you prefer, would be more >damnable that those awfull tests of deadly irradiation, made on >mentally retarded and abandonned people, which have been >revealed and confirmed officially by the Department of Health. As I said yesterday, none of the other experiments, that have already been revealed, tied the US Government to the diabolical work of Unit 731. Roswell remained hidden for exactly that reason - the 731 link. This is what makes it so very distinct from the other experiments in that same time period that were revealed in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration. >I know these stories : Silas Newton (found by Karl Pflock), >and the Spitsbergen "plant". But the major fact is, as noted >by Jerry Clark, that after the Scully book, no serious >researcher would want to hear about crash stories for the >next 20 or 30 years. It was actually a brilliant plan and, ironically, you have noted part of it yourself, without realizing it, with regard to Silas Newton: They create faked crashed UFO tales to hide the truth, so then people investigate the crashed UFO angle. But, they then get people like Newton (whose background is very well known!) to help spread them and what happens? I'll tell you what happens - first the real picture gets buried behind the faked UFO crash stories. Then people dig into the crash stories and find they came from people like Newton so they drop the subject. So, the initial release of the crash stories protects the real picture. And the involvement of Newton then makes people drop the whole thing like a hot potato, exactly what the Intel people wanted! >Except for Dr Lincoln Lapaz (not Lepaz). What you suggest, that >he was an actor of this somber plot of Japanese prisonners in >gondolas, does not fit with an important testimony, the one of >Lewis Rickett, interviewed by Mark Rodheiger. I point out in the book that it is highly illuminating that LaPaz was brought into Roswell - he was a high-level consultant on Fugo balloons in the war. By the way, I have a very intriguing Roswell-LaPaz story I am chasing down and that if is verified I will post it to List. But again, it focuses on his balloon work in the war and knowledge of classified balloon flights in 1947. >What bothers me most is that you don't really cite any identified >witness. It's all hearsay, from a "DIA guy", etc. And, you know, >all material proofs, paper trail, have been destroyed! That was just my interview with Stuart and what I said in the interview. Half the people I interviewed are named in the book. I can refer to letters on the others. There were some name changes made - not by me - by the legal department/attorneys at Simon & Schuster - that was absolutely nothing to do with me and was out of my hands. This was because of the sensitive nature of some of the data and 'Legal' (not me) insisted on this appearing in whistleblower/alias format. As for the destruction of files: practically everyone I spoke with said that the bulk of the materials was destroyed to hide the truth. You seem to dispute, or think it's problematic but, ironically, the data from my sources on this is very similar to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:36:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:49:56 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:04 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >First minor niggle but, someone who was there at the time would >have known about it, is that Hollomon Air Force Base wasn't >Hollomon Air Force Base until Jan 1948, prior to that it was >plain old Alamogordo Army Air Field and would have been when >this alledged flight took place. None of the people I interviewed were at Holloman. Aside from the interviewee at Oak Ridge who saw bodies, the other interviewees were people in psychological warfare ops in the 50s and 60s. Their unique positions and work allowed them access to the inside story of what it was that was being hidden and why. One was actually involved in spreading the faked crash stories, but at the time (and for years later) didn't even know why - that's how tightly wrapped up all of this was. >Second and more important point is just when did this launch >take place in relation to early July 1947? We know that the NYU >(MOGUL) people were on site at AAAF from May 15th 1947 and >Albert Crary's journal logs movements all the way through to >their departure on July 8th, in fact Crary himself was in >Roswell on July 10th as he drove back east. The story I got is that there were a range of tests - possibly from 4 to 7 or 8 tests - from May to August 1947, all undertaken from the White Sands Missile Range. >What has this got to do with it, you might ask? Well, balloons >and a humungus balloon which this glider and crew's lifter would >have to be, would need special care and attention in both >inflation and handling at launch, in fact it would need the >same conditions as did the NYU balloon launches. They would have >been competing for the same launch conditions and times. Yet the >NYU didn't seem to need any clearance to make their flights, >they shedualed them as an when they needed. Furthermore >many of these NYU flights were carrying high explosives to test >the ground "listening stations" spread over the desert (one in >Roswell). >I have to ask myself if I were carrying out highly secret >experimental manned balloon flights would I want to launch them >at the same time as a bunch of University students - albeit in >the emnploy of the DOD - who were sending aloft large amounts of >high explosives and other balloons being tracked by chase >planes, radar and optical theodolites? Well, they were testing V2 rockets at the same time from White Sands. You could apply your argument to that too, but the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:41:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:53:03 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:05:00 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >I'll address the "contact lens sunglasses" some other time. >People proposing that need to look at the state of contact lens >technology in 1947. Which is exactly what I stress in the book - that the eye-lens project was quickly canceled because it didn't work, the technology wasn't there, and it created nothing but severe infections and irritations for the people involved. That is the irony - I agree with you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:55:34 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:13 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Incidentally, as Stanton Friedman now seems to be about the only >person in the world vigorously promoting an ET explanation for >Roswell, I don't see this as being a 'pelicanist' v. 'believer' >issue. Well, it is to the extent that it was the ufologists, not their critics, who sensed that Roswell was indeed important and who, in the face of withering ridicule, continued the investigation, thus setting the stage for what may be - if we're lucky - final resolution of this contentious issue. In the interest of saving bandwidth, I'll clip the rest of your message, but of course those who wish to read or re-read it can look it up at the Archives. Before closing, though, let me say that I think your words are admirably gracious and sensible, and beyond that, you certainly know - judging from the extended quote in your post - whom to go
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:02:14 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:00:07 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >No Japanese bodies have turned up (or ever will) >and no wrecked gliders (powered or unpowered) will either. As >for documents that genuinely reveal anything, I do not expect a >single page to appear. Why should they, when it is so easy to >claim they were all destroyed? CDA, You make the point for me - there was no need to keep the documents or the bodies. If it was an alien crash then of course the bodies and craft would have been preserved and studied for decades - it would be invaluable data. But why would shredded balloon debris, a broken-up glider, and a bunch of Japanese bodies be kept, stored away somewhere, for decades when the whole thing was canceled as not being seen as ultimately viable or worth doing anymore? I would have been more suspicious if they told me it _had_ all been kept! >At least with the ETH Roswell books there were a few, though >admittedly not many, first-hand witnesses. >Nick's ideas may at first sound more acceptable than the ETH, >but they rest entirely on ancient hearsay. I predict that his >book will simply be added to the Roswell folklore in due course. That may indeed happen, but I would hope not. For the people who haven't read the book yet, there seems to be a mistaken view that my sources were witnesses to Roswell. They were not and I have never tried to make that appear so. Aside from one, all of them worked in psychological-warfare divisions allied to operations hiding the real picture behind UFO smokescreens from the 1950s, onward.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:51:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:07:12 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Maccabee >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:16 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:21:40 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>I have begun to read you long interview, but I have stopped >>half way, having already a couple of questions and criticisms.> >>First, the confusion in Roswell with a "flying saucer" seems >>just as unbelievable as for any other type of balloon. A balloon >>is a balloon, even a very big one. Or a fragment of it. The same >>remark applies to a small craft, either wooden or metallic, or >>to a fragment of it. >With regard to the issue of why the people at Roswell couldn't >tell a balloon from a flying saucer, you're not realizing the >one, key thing that so many other researchers don't realize (or >take into consideration the significance of either). >That's the big thing: why couldn't they tell a balloon from a >UFO (even a big balloon)? >The simple answer is that this occurred little more than a week >after the first UFO sighting by Kenneth Arnold. At that time, >there was no UFO UpDates, no Net, no UFO Magazine, nothing, no >UFO history, no books on the subject, etc., etc. >So in other words, there was no way that anyone - only days >after Arnold - knew that flying saucers weren't made like >balloons, precisely because there was no history to the subject >in place for them to work with and make accurate comparisons. >Today, we might make an educated guess on what a crashed saucer >would look like because we have 60 years of reports to deal >with. >You tell me how guys would specifically not know that saucers >were not made of balloon like materials when the subject was >barely a week old?! Not a good argument for the balloon hypothesis. Arnold's story was accompanied by his claim that the objects traveled at about 1200 mph (an underestimate). Arnold suggested they were some new type of aircraft, probably jet aircraft. There is nothing about a balloon - not even a blimp - that suggests the capability to travel at jet speed - for example, no balloon has jet engines. I doubt that one could propel a balloon through the atmosphere at over 1000 mph and have it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 23 Re: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:00:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:09:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:16:18 +0200 >Subject: Re: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:53:13 -0400 >>Subject: Hawk Tales No longer Exempt From Disclosure >>Some of you may recall that about 2 months ago I provided a >>sort-of review of Project Beta, and the new book, Exempt From >>Disclosure. >>Those of you who have read the new book, Exempt From Disclosure >>and those of you who haven't, will find Hawk Tales illuminating >>or exhilarating.... or perhaps even disappointing... but >>definitely not mundane or uninteresting..... >>http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales >>(download 880K WORD document) >I have read the two books, with interest. >I wonder if it is a pure coincidence that they were published at >almost the same time, since there is a large common ground >between them. However, if Project Beta is highly praised, >Exempt From Disclosure is not - to say the least. I read it first >and I was disapointed by what looked like very sloppy writing. Probably a coincidence. >So it is tempting to reject it all as nonsense. But, after >thinking about it again, I feel that it probably contains a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:59:26 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:00:07 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>As the ufologists who took Roswell seriously are about to get >>due credit for staying on the case and seeing it to what may now >>be its extraordinary and significant conclusion, it is easy to >>understand why the pelicanists, afloat on the same hot air that >>carried their beloved Mogul balloons, are flapping wings and >>squawking in helpless fury. >>It is, however, funny to see militant skeptic John Harney as he >>lectures _others_ on their alleged failure to take an "objective >>approach." If Nick Redfern proves right, the many Roswell essays >>that have filled the pages of Magonia (Harney's magazine) are >>going to provide endless amusement to ufologists of the future. >>At the very least they will serve as flight instructions. The >>wise will learn from them exactly which birds not to fly with in >>the future. >What about the greater (far greater) number of pages in the >early 1990s in IUR that endlessly promoted the ETH side of the >Roswell affair, and in which Jerry Clark once assured us that >the forthcoming first Randle/Schmitt book was going to lay to >rest forever (or words to that effect) the idea that UFOs never >crash. If Nick Redfern proves right are these writers going to >pack their bags and head off for Zeta Reticuli? Uh, what is your point, beyond an ungracious failure to note that we also published pieces by you as well? Or doesn't that fit the pelicanist narrative of the moment? Anyway, duh, Christopher: Roswell-interested ufologists - for all sorts of reasons that seemed plausible at the time, as Nick Redfern himself points out (they included covert official encouragement of the notion) - did think they were dealing with an ET event. When witnesses described very strange-looking bodies and AF officers and others talked of a spacecraft crash and pelicanists only flapped wings in response and couldn't even keep their theories straight, why shouldn't Roswell investigators have taken the idea seriously? There are worse intellectual crimes than being wrong - or, as here, favoring a particular hypothesis before new evidence emerges to put it into question. Or changing one's mind, as I did as I watched the Roswell story develop over time. In my case, I came to the view that while the ET interpretation had a surface plausibility, it was finally unlikely to be true because it left as much unexplained as its alternative, the Mogul claim. That left, I judged, a shameful official secret too sensitive to admit to even decades later. This sort of changing of mind happens every day on all levels of society, including science, academia, and journalism. Just because it doesn't happen with you, it doesn't follow that it doesn't happen with others, all the time. Actually, you might try it sometime. You'll find it's a healthy practice. >The sequel to the first Randle/Schmitt book was that within 3 >years this same duo produced another book "The Truth about the >UFO Crash at Roswell" in which they presented a very different >scenario. They even had the nerve to end their text with this >gem: "When the dust settles, you'll find that we were right... >again". Your point being? >If they had got it right the first time they would not have >needed to alter dates and locations for their second book. They >would not have needed to change the whole scenario or even >publish a second book at all. From your armchair, of course, you are clueless to the difficulty the actual investigators, most of whom I knew well and with whom I had many searching conversations, experienced as they tried to reconstruct a covered-up event which took place decades earlier. (Remember when pelicanists jeered at the very notion that something had been covered up? My, my, they've come a long way ever since the AF owned up to a cover-up of Mogul flights, haven't they?) What matters is that the real investigators, as opposed to safely distant and lazy critics who liked to tell them how gullible and stupid they were, were there in the trenches. Because of their efforts, and not their critics', the story remained alive. Their good work made it possible - if Nick Redfern is generally right - for an eventual, and extremely interesting, resolution of a mystery that till now had defied it. >Nick's ideas may at first sound more acceptable than the ETH, >but they rest entirely on ancient hearsay. Since the case is already ancient history, any testimony is going to be, by definition, "ancient." The above is not, alas, the most compelling insight, though as usual you're contradicting yourself. According to you (see above), "ancient hearsay" should have made the case immediately explainable to Randle, Schmitt, and others. Now you want us to believe that "ancient hearsay" has no value. Make up your mind, Christopher. I suppose it is churlish to add on the obvious point that a few years ago, when the AF trotted out its hoary Mogul yarns, it cited "ancient hearsay" as one line of evidence for its most recent solution to the Roswell mystery. >I predict that his >book will simply be added to the Roswell folklore in due course. And I predict that your touching faith in Mogul flights of fancy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:07:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:48:19 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >>>to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >>>inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >>>about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >As Karl Pflock put it: >"The anthropomorphic dunmies were ready- made for laughs and >cheap shots. so, too, was the notion of flawed memories blending >events widely separated in time, even though it is well-known >that the vagaries of human memory frequently result in such >misassociations. The naysayers' job was made even easier by the >incredibly inept Pentagon press conference at which Case Closed >was revealed." > -Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to > Believe, Prometheus Books, 2001, pp 139-140). Well, Pflock is certainly right about the "ready-made for laughs and cheap shots," not to mention for manifestly desperate straw- clutching. No wonder even nonbelievers in UFOs found it unworthy of belief but worthy of hearty chuckles. (I recall a particularly hilarious cartoon on the subject by the well-known political cartoonist Tom Tomorrow.) I think it is possible, in any event, that soon we may see just who was on the wrong side of "inconvenient facts and the will to believe." Hint: it wasn't whom the AF, Pflock, and flocks of pelicanists thought. In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees that Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a way to break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to go beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that (a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET event and (b) Proponents were right to contend that the event was genuinely mysterious and to pursue their investigation in the face of fierce criticism and ridicule. That done, as John Rimmer urges and I concur, perhaps we can look forward in the hope that, at long last, we have some answers which, if and when properly documented, will lay a contentious issue to rest and give satisfaction to all
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Morris From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:42:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:10:11 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Morris >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:36:16 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:04 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>I have to ask myself if I were carrying out highly secret >>experimental manned balloon flights would I want to launch them >>at the same time as a bunch of University students - albeit in >>the emnploy of the DOD - who were sending aloft large amounts of >>high explosives and other balloons being tracked by chase >>planes, radar and optical theodolites? >Well, they were testing V2 rockets at the same time from White >Sands. You could apply your argument to that too, but the >important thing is that the rocket tests went ahead. Hi Nick, Yes they did, and Crary and the NYU team _knew_ all about them and _when_ they were launching because Crary had a network of manned outstations set up around the White Sands range to take recording and measurements from each V2 launch. He also used the nearby Tularosa bombing range to generate sonic blasts with high explosives for this network of out-stations. From his journal this activity, all over AAAF and White Sands covered the period Feb-July 1947. Now these people were just run of the mill university guys, not military just doing "research" on a DOD contract. but they appeared to have the run of AAAF, White Sands and the surrounding area on a daily basis. Again are these the sort of conditions under which you would fly a "super
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bordais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:50:32 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:13:15 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bordais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:12 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:00:07 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>No Japanese bodies have turned up (or ever will) >>and no wrecked gliders (powered or unpowered) will either. As >>for documents that genuinely reveal anything, I do not expect a >>single page to appear. Why should they, when it is so easy to >>claim they were all destroyed? >CDA, >You make the point for me - there was no need to keep the documents or the bodies. If it was an alien crash then of course the bodies and craft would have been preserved and studied for decades - it would be invaluable data. But why would shredded balloon debris, a broken-up glider, and a bunch of Japanese bodies be kept, stored away somewhere, for decades when the whole thing was canceled as not being seen as ultimately viable or worth doing anymore? I would have been more suspicious if they told me it _had_ all been kept! >>At least with the ETH Roswell books there were a few, though >>admittedly not many, first-hand witnesses. >>Nick's ideas may at first sound more acceptable than the ETH, >>but they rest entirely on ancient hearsay. I predict that his >>book will simply be added to the Roswell folklore in due course. >That may indeed happen, but I would hope not. For the people who haven't read the book yet, there seems to be a mistaken view that my sources were witnesses to Roswell. They were not and I have never tried to make that appear so. Aside from one, all of them worked in psychological-warfare divisions allied to operations hiding the real picture behind UFO smokescreens from the 1950s, onward. Nick, Your book brings to the military an excellent opportunity to get rid, at last, of the poisonous Roswell controversy. If you are right, all they have to do now is put all they have on the table for good - if that's all there is to it. And it will end with a big, big laugh. On the other hand, if it was a UFO crash, I think we will have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:54:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:16:16 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> To: <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:41:15 -0700 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>I'll address the "contact lens sunglasses" some other time. >>People proposing that need to look at the state of contact lens >>technology in 1947. >Which is exactly what I stress in the book - that the eye-lens >project was quickly canceled because it didn't work, the >technology wasn't there, and it created nothing but severe >infections and irritations for the people involved. >That is the irony - I agree with you. I suspect that we agree on many things, Nick. It is really unfair for me to comment about much until I read the book. I hope Amazon.com gets it to me quickly. FWIW, and after I read the book I may have reason to agree with you, contact lenses did exist in 1947. The first ones were actually made in the late 1800s. But those were all hard lenses, not the soft type. So far as I was able to find out when I looked into this back in the 90s, soft contact lenses did not appear until the 1970s. What is removed from the eyes in the AA film does not look like soft contact lenses. It has more the appearance of a very thin membrane. Unlike contact lenses, it appears to have been designed to cover the whole surface of the eye that was visible with the eyelids fully open, and allow the eyeball to move freely underneath it. This is different from any contact lens that I know of. Back when I was researching this I spoke to a top
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 They Fail... (Roswell Redux) From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:29:55 -0400 Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) Roswell is revisited, yet again. Et tu Brute'? I think what I find most personally offensive about the Roswell 'tree' being shaken further is the fallaciously stretched and unjust satisfactions of the ardent skeptibunky/pelicanist/post- pelicanist types. Their smiling satisfaction, such as it is forecast to be, is wholly undeserved. It's revolting that these same Klasskurtzian ideologues might draw a deeper more self-satisfied breath as a result of the, alleged, "E?H" disqualification for Roswell, or that Roswell might (at last!) be shown to have a prosaic (even if horrific) explanation... a respected Nick Redfern will suggest same in his upcoming book. I resent, further, that they would even falsely perceive a little more hydrogen in their otherwise disintegrating balloon of abject ufological denialism. Plainly, I take exception, finally, that they feel even remotely validated in the continuing prosecution of their senseless negativity regarding what is otherwise the ufologically obvious. Verily, they must facilitate to avoid the freaking point ...once again! And, they only prop up their cloyingly dismissive ufological insouciance while they blithely continue their reversing back- step to sooth cotton candy paradigms... paradigms where they are the masters of all that we survey; that they are the dominators of same; that they are a jewel in some deity's inviolate crown... No, no, and no. These are attitudes easily washed away in the first tidal wave, buried in the causing earthquake, or obliterated with the first surprise asteroid strike. They fail. Why does a Roswell redux upset me... and maybe you? Because it's a waste of everybody's time, I believe. It will be used to qualify a retreat from the inevitable. Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? Did you hear them smirk as they distorted; do you sense them sneer as they cherry-pick; Can you perceive their snickers as they fraudulently lecture their unbrave retro-isms? These intellectual cowards smell a new validation for their tedious progression hating paradigms. They rejoice! Mr. Harney and Mr. Rimmer are only a beginning. They will fail. This is said with all admiration for and respect to Mr. Redfern, who has gone some distance, ufologically, without disgrace on that paranormal path, a path fraught with all manner of opportunity for said disgrace. His arrows have flown with a minimal divergence from true, it would seem, and they stick in the target with an efficacious tenacity which seems wholly justified. Whatever he has to say on the subject is worth having a look at... however he shakes it down. That's more than fair, and I believe Mr. Redfern aspires to same. The truth about Roswell is, of course, paramount; however... only if it is the truth and not the current denialist's ufological sex-toy for the "S&P Cubed" individuals alluded to above. The truth has no agenda. That's the province of a lie, even if just one of omission. The "Cubers" first instinct, remember, is to use the resultant flap to discredit this ufological microcosm of Roswell... as a fallacious mechanism to destroy even unrelated ufological macrocosms elsewhere! They're not remotely interested in the truth, their only interest is to keep the status-quo rewarding them as turgidly vital as they can for as long as they can... and accomplish same in any manner that they have to. It's what they do. Inevitably, they fail. Over an over again, they fail. UFOs refuse to go away. As has been pointed out, Roswell... despite all the high strangeness surrounding it (...and perhaps even because of same!)... is just not that important in the grand ufological design, good reader! It follows, then, that one can safely refrain from discounting the whole of that grand design as a result of any one aspect of that design... especially Roswell, _most_ especially given what may be the ultimate truth about Roswell... as repugnantly repellant and off topic as that subject's likely to be... it won't matter..... Real truths have a way of leading to other real truths. I'm ecstatic finding them myself however they might make themselves available to me, because of exactly that. I'll take them as I find them and find them acceptable, or not... however uncomfortable they are. Reality is preferable in the long-run even as the phony-baloney one is missed for a time... That was the theme of those Matrix movies wasn't it? Has it ever occurred to the reader that Roswell has been cultivated for years as a device to keep the "credulity line" regarding UFOs as indistinct as possible? See, if 'indisputable' evidence is uncovered that Roswell was nothing more than monkeys flying footballs, or disabled Japanese children in dangerous high altitude balloon tests... (good ...God!)... it shall not diminish a pool of data and evidence regarding UFOs that remains six levels deep, is thousands of years long, and has collected such an evidential weight and girth of reality changing propensity that its debated actuality becomes wholly and obscenely ludicrous... An, I suspect, psychotic exercise of less than sane power-holders in the confines of a lunatic asylum they have taken over, furiously pointing out and away from themselves the examples of the madness that they themselves are most afflicted by, frankly. I digress. A prosaic Roswell does not make UFOs go away, by any measurable means, reader-sitting-on-the-fense-wrongly-believing-that-there- remains-a-plausible-deniabily-with-regard-to-...True UFOs... there is none. UFOs are, indeed, real. Of this there is no rational doubt. There are hosts of quality citation for that statement, reader. Moreover, this is forgetting that a well respected and honorable Mr. Redfern may yet be found wrong! Yea and verily, if Stanton Friedman can be proclaimed to have Roswell wrong (and that jury might very likely hang) then no less can be meted out to Mr. Redfern as the days and months spin on out. Nes't ce pas? Paramount in all our minds is the truth, isn't it? Well, no. Jerry Clark recently points out that the behaviors and methods of a contingent of the ufological community diverges considerably from that. The first salvo of response from this "S-P Cubed" contingent are only the predicted snickers, smirks, and sneers of obligatory partisanship. "Wait and See" is largely abandoned in a rush to agree with each other and score the first points in the game of pressure seal refurbishment that they would play. They fail. Their seals continue to pop around them like condoms apparently sent to third world countries. They know this to be true even as they don't accept it or remotely acknowledge it. Their cabin pressures dwindle regardless. They gasp for breath. Their status quo betrays them at last. Their retreating paradigms are a momentary aberration of their own hubris, and the gods they manufacture to do their bidding (and which only serve them in the short run)... fail. Even as these would deign to drag the rest of us into self-centered complacency, intellectual cowardice, moral injustice, and blighted sensibility, they fail. We'd do well to agitate for truth, despite its inconvenience, reader, however uncomfortable it might be, and embrace it in relieved acceptance. UFOs remain real, realer that we'd want them to be, perhaps, but preferable to any antithesis so far provided because the antithesis itself is so occluded, so contrived, and so intellectually lacking. They fail. Soon they will make 'the' straw-breaking failure, and the slide to truth will become inexorable. This latest Roswell redux, as off topic as it appears to be, could be just the thing to get that slide started. Truth is grease. Any truth. I remain
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:07:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:32:01 -0400 Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph - Velez >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:42:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:45 -0400 >>Subject: UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >>The following brief article appeared in the current edition of >>Filer's Files: >>--- >>UK Abductee Passes Polygraph >>In December 2004, The WHY? Files reported "Abductee >>faces polygraph test on U. K. T.V.".The abductee concerned >>was James Bazil and, as reported, the "lie detector" confirmed >>that James was being completely honest when he related his >>experiences of Alien Abduction. >>However, the time allocated in the T.V. show to James' story >>was extremely short and apart from Dr. Chris French's rather >>generalized opinions, most of James' account was missed. >>James submitted a more detailed account of his experiences >>to The WHY? Files and we are pleased to publish it. His account >>of life-long experiences is, at times, harrowing, from being >>diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness to being tormented >>by other children.James Bazil's response can be read at: >>http://www.thewhyfiles.net/abductions4.htm >>--- >>I know, this doesn't prove anything, but... I have long been an >>advocate of using polygraph testing as a part of a preliminary >>screening process for anyone reporting UFO occupant abduction >>cases. >>I'm familiar with the fact that polygraph has some shortcomings >>and that it is inadmissible in a court of law etc. Nonetheless, >>it could prove useful as a means of eliminating individuals who >>are being intentionally deceptive. And intrinsic shortcomings >>aside, it is still no 'easy matter' to fool a lie detector, >>especially when coupled with an expert/experienced operator. >>Before I consented to participate in the NOVA abduction segment >>I had made several requests that I hoped would be fulfilled and >>aired. Although I was promised that 'some of them' would be >>used, in fact none were ever used. One such request that I made >>was for a polygraph examination. I thought it would be a great >>way to apply an immediate 'acid test' to the abductees. A test >>that even if only 'one' of us passed the exam, would have made a >>compelling result and lent 'some' credibility to the reports >>being made. >>Other forms of examination that I suggested included; a complete >>psychological work-up using experts of their own choosing; and >>several simple medical scans for any anomalous "foreign objects" >>in the bodies of the abductees, Not a one was followed up. >>Again I say; shame on them for not having taken advantage of a >>golden opportunity to do some serious science reporting on this >>subject. >>I am convinced that any kind of 'testing' would only have >>strengthened the reports we (the abductees) were making. >>Finally, after all these years, somebody in the UK bothered to >>actually administer a polygraph test to an abductee and just >>look at the result. >>There is a genuine mystery here that has been consistently >>ignored, ridiculed and marginalized by all. Hi Stan, You wrote: >Right on John. I should point out that Betty Hill passed a >polygraph examination on a TV show with F.Lee Bailey a number of >years ago. Oh man, there are several examples where that kind of 'indicator' simply goes by the board unnoticed. One such instance was a 'Sightings' program that featured a segment about female abductee who was being examined by physicians at an MRI lab somewhere out west. She had been complaining to her family physician about chronic headaches that she believed was being caused by the presence of an "implant" that she received during an abduction experience. The Sightings people interviewed the abductee and the doctor _prior_ to the MRI scan. Of particular note is when the female subject points directly to the spot in her head where they will find the alleged 'implant.' Holding one index finger pointing between her eyes and the other by her right ear pointing toward the center of her head, she triangulated the location of the implant. The doctor was completely astounded afterwards when a small, (I think it was 3 mm. or so) opaque, oval object appeared in the scan. And precisely where the woman said it would be! The object in her brain was in an inoperable location, so there was no chance of recovering it for further study/analysis. I sat there with my jaw on the floor and wondered what it would finally take to get mainstream science interested in investigating the many reports of UFO occupant abduction that were coming forth in the late eighties through the nineties. And inconclusive or not, the results of that on air MRI scan was compelling to say the very least. How many other 'clues' will remain unknown only because they are ignored and unexplored by those in a position to do so. I don't expect this abduction business will ever be completely resolved. That is, unless the 'aliens' choose to end the suspense and make their (I believe long-time) presence here on earth known to all. In this round of Texas 'Hold-em' _they_ hold all the cards. ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:26:32 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:35:52 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:25:24 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:00 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>And, had they made such a terrible blunder, I don't >>think that Colonel Blanchard, for one, would have pursued his >>brillant career, up to the grade of four star General. >As I point out in the book, Roswell did get "chewed-out" for >putting the release out. Nick That's very new. I hope that you are not alluding to the rumor that Walter Haut was reprimanded, because there was nothing like that, according to all witnesses. Marcel got good marks and was promoted to the Pentagon. The same goes for Blanchard, who was rapidly promoted as well. >>I don't see why an experiment such as carrying war prisonners in >>a stratospheric gondola, or glider if you prefer, would be more >>damnable that those awfull tests of deadly irradiation, made on >>mentally retarded and abandonned people, which have been >>revealed and confirmed officially by the Department of Health. >As I said yesterday, none of the other experiments, that have >already been revealed, tied the US Government to the diabolical >work of Unit 731. Roswell remained hidden for exactly that >reason - the 731 link. This is what makes it so very distinct >from the other experiments in that same time period that were >revealed in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration. Again, I don't see how it would have been so different. Anyway, these sinister post-war experiments are no longer big secrets to be denied at all costs. They have been revealed, gradually. And Neil Moris has rightly pointed out that such experiments in White Sands would have been very difficult to achieve in complete secrecy, at least at the time of the Roswell incident. Just imagine : huge balloons, and gondolas or Horten gliders with Japanese prisoners on board! The NYU team, at the same time, had a lot of difficulties assembling its balloon trains and launching them. <snip> >It was actually a brilliant plan and, ironically, you have >noted part of it yourself, without realizing it, with regard to >Silas Newton: They create faked crashed UFO tales to hide the >truth, so then people investigate the crashed UFO angle. But, >they then get people like Newton (whose background is very well >known!) to help spread them and what happens? Let me try to understand your scenario. First, there are these weird experiments in White Sands. A huge balloon with crew is lost in the Foster Ranch. The RAAF thinks it is a saucer and announces it (they don't mention the crew). BTW, the discovery alone of the crew should have deterred them to make any public announcment (the discovery of a UFO si another story). Then the blunder of the press release must be repared. This is done brillantly in Fort Worth and everybody forgets about Roswell. According to you, all physical traces of these sad experiments are destroyed. So :White Sands case closed! Now, in your scenario, the military decide to debunk Roswell, with the help of Silas Newton, and the book of Frank Scully in 1950. But there is no need for that! In fact, the book does not even mention a crash in Roswell. In Germany there is a saying : "Don't wake-up sleeping dogs". Along that line, the book would have been just another blunder. A much simpler explanation was that, yes, there had been a UFO Crash, and may more than one. Silas and Scully got some information, but their book was weak. They were fed with some disinformation to make it even weaker, and UFO crashes were buried again. We don't need the Japanese balloon story to explain all that, and there is no need of a fake UFO crash story to hide this alleged balloon story. Another question - what did they mean, in the documents you found, by high altitude "mutation" experiments? Now I repeat that, if your surrealist story happens to be the truth, the more the military wait to reveal it, the more
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:37:40 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:13 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Incidentally, as Stanton Friedman now seems to be about the only >>person in the world vigorously promoting an ET explanation for >>Roswell, I don't see this as being a 'pelicanist' v. 'believer' >>issue. >Well, it is to the extent that it was the ufologists, not their >critics, who sensed that Roswell was indeed important and who, >in the face of withering ridicule, continued the investigation, >thus setting the stage for what may be - if we're lucky - final >resolution of this contentious issue. <snip> Good point Jerry. But may I offer a slight criticism? Despite the $100,000's spent on Roswell and Roswell-related investigations over the past 27 years, essentially nothing has been done to follow up on and investigate the testimonies of the CIC/OSI agents uncovered by Karl Pflock in 1993. These are more credible than any of the other alleged Roswell witnesses because they are grudging "admissions against interest" by those charged with security and coverup at Roswell, and yet they admit something anomalous was found in the desert. Nothing has been done with all this money and resources to investigate the national security and defense policy impacts of Roswell to see if something extraordinary had actually occurred. My research has been done without any of this money and resources, as a Roswell skeptic since 1978. I urged Moore and Friedman in 1979 to investigate the policy response to the alleged Roswell crash recovery, which must have been developed if Roswell really happened, but they never did. It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are Linked From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:46:28 -0400 Subject: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are Linked Source: Mac Tonnies' Blog http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com There's a stubborn myth that no qualified medical doctors think the 'alien autopsy' is 'real'. This persistent notion is resoundingly false, as the following piece demonstrates. Part of the reluctance of doctors and pathologists to go on record supporting a progeria/polydactyly origin for the AA stems from the ufological "giggle factor"; when shown footage and told what they're seeing is an alien from another world, their resistance is understandable. But viewed in a human context, free of the baggage that accompanies tales of crashed flying saucers, the AA makes a great deal of sense. Similarly, most of the resistance to Redfern's thesis that we're probably viewing the dissection of a human being killed by top- secret military experimentation appears to stem from the "gag factor"; none of us want to consider the implications that accompany such a morbid scenario. Nevertheless, I'm convinced we must follow the evidence and ditch the "will to believe" - or, in the enduring case of the "alien" autopsy - the will to disbelieve. German Professor Claims To Identify Santilli Alien http://archive.anomalies.net/cni-news/CNI.0034.html "These shocking scenes are in a black and white film that caused a sensation when shown last summer. The fuzzy pictures allegedly show how U.S. military surgeons dissected an unworldly being from a crashed UFO. Circulation of the obscure work was by a British filmmaker. Many TV networks bought the alien autopsy from him; in Germany sequences were run on RTL. The belief in the UFO community was enthusiastic. But the U.S. government had recently shown it was no UFO in 1947, but rather a spy balloon that had crashed. Therefore skeptics quickly guessed that the film was a forgery. So their opinion was that the alleged extraterrestrial was a rubber dummy. However, the truth is much more macabre. The person lying on the pathologist's dissection table doctors have now proven to be a genetically deformed girl. 'About 13 years old, she had unmistakable Progeria - everything fits together,' said the dermatologist Thomas Jansen from the Ludwig-Maximilians University. People sick with Progeria age with remarkable swiftness. Even as children they look old. They suffer dwarfism, hair and teeth that fall out, and clogged arteries. Most of them die before puberty from heart attacks or strokes." <snip> "In the entire world, there are only a handful of medical people who specialize in this mysterious hereditary disease. Most doctors aren't even familiar with the exact symptoms. Still, when Jansen saw the alien film on television, the diagnosis was clear for him. 'A textbook case," so the dermatologist pointed out 'all the typical identifying characteristics of the illness progeria' seen in the autopsied corpse." <snip> With the 'old children,' the subdermal fatty tissue shrinks. Their skin is tight and stretched like plastic wrap. In this way, progeria makes it appear that the navel is missing. 'It's like an umbrella,' declared Jansen, 'when I open it, all the folds disappear.' Also, it's not unusual that the dead girl has six toes and fingers. Polydactyly [extra digits], said the dermatologist, is often seen accompanying rare deformities. Jansen considers his circumstantial evidence to be 'one hundred percent watertight.' Professors around the Ludwig-Maximilians University agree with this judgment, the findings being published in the Munich" --Weekly Medical Journal Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:55:56 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman >From: Nick`Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:01:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:11 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>What you provided was hearsay, nothing more. >Hearsay? How are my interviews (that suggest a down-to-earth >explanation) hearsay, when interviews that suggest an ET >explanation are - in your view - corroboration and evidence? Nick, Hearsay is evidence that is based on reports of others rather that the witnesses own knowledge. So when the cameraman provides background for the AA, he is relating what he knows, or purports to know, first hand. When the MP (MP's Story) tells his story, he only reports what he has seen, with his own eyes. Neither the cameraman nor the MP suggested that the creatures they saw were ET. They were just described as creatures or freaks. If you had been following my research, you should certainly know by now that I don't think the creatures are ET. >>But where exactly is the evidence? Your witness testimony is >>nothing but hearsay. Do you have tapes and notes. Would you >>share them with us? Can I conduct a VSA on any of this testimony >>as I have done on most of my witness testimony. >Yes I have all sorts of data: interview notes, files, tapes. >Evidence? Ed, even the Air Force couldn't find any evidence to >support its Mogul theory or crash test dummy theory! No ET- >related documents related to Roswell have surfaced officially. >I'll tell you what, I do have beyond what you call "hearsay", >and to me this is the most important thing: two of the >interviewees directed me to a number of highly intriguing files >at the National Archives that would have been incredibly >difficult to find had I not known where to look. <nip> >That these people have the inside leads/directions on all this >is, to me, significant. These are interesting stories but I can't see the relevance to Roswell and how this information cancels out Roswell witness testimony or is connected in any way to the AA. >>That's just not good enough. In fact, it's total BS. >No it's not. Ed, you are mad because the data and documents I >found and the interviews/interviewees go against what you so >badly want Roswell to be. I have nothing invested in Roswell except a witness (the MP, I believe and a scholar's knowledge of the possible timelines and the Fort Worth photos and the debris they show. Your research doesn't change a thing for me. I'm still convinced that a craft crashed in two locations (blew apart in the air) NW of Roswell, close to ten PM on the 2nd of July, 1947. Creatures were recovered along with the craft they were flying. The main body of the craft was recovered the 3rd and morning of the 4th. The remainder of the material was later discovered and reported by Mac Brazil and recovered during the 8th and 9th of July. Some of the debris mixed with parts of from radar reflector and balloon pieces were sent to Ft. Worth and photographed. I don't see how your research contradicts that basic Roswell story. How do you account for the Ft. Worth debris photos and Ramey's explanation. >Had they said something that was >pro-ET or pro the AA as an ET event (even if without your >opinion on what constitutes evidence) you would be supporting >me. I doubt that, unless it was better verified than what you've brought us. >>None of your witnesses knew anything! They only alluded to things. >>Do you have any tangible evidence from any of your witnesses? >Again, I have evidence that they are who they claim to be, that >they worked in the official places the claimed to work, they >directed me to very obscure Archives files, I could go on and >on..... This is a hell of a lot more than we have had from >interviewees with opposing views on Roswell - and that even goes >for the Air Force too, re. its Mogul and Dummy scenarios. But you haven't provided us with their names so we can talk to them and hear their story. We know the names of the Roswell witnesses and they can and have been interviewed by others. I've given the name of the MP to other researchers. >>Are you saying that the Santilli Alien >>Autopsy is footage of a real event, and that all of the >>researchers who've spent thousands of collective hours viewing >>the footage are correct: that what we're seeing is real, but >>we're just mistaken as to the nature of the creature? >I wonder if the scenario is this: that the film is a fake, but >specifically made by the Govt. They make the body in the film >look somewhat like the real bodies, they release the film, it >then gets dismissed on a massive scale as a hoax. Then how did Ray Santilli get the footage and was he duped or is he part of their (Govt) plan? >Then if >someone like me comes along with testimony about Progeria, 1947, >etc., and makes a connection between similarities between the >real bodies and the film's body, then the fact that the film is a >fake casts doubt on the stories I've been told. A typical Intel >ploy. Do you really believe that and if so where is your evidence? >What I will tell the List is this: I am hot on the trail, right >now, of an early 1947 operation - that was canceled, as it caused >nothing but eye-infections and problems for those involved - >that was focused upon protecting soldiers on the battlefield >from flash-blindness in the event of an atomic-war. The plan was >to try and create a tinted eye lens (not unlike a larger contact >lens) to see if it offered any protection. It didn't. As I said, >But we have 1947 experiments with black eye-lenses for flash >blindness, mutant experiments at high altitude, newspaper >reports on advanced and large Japanese balloons with small >pilots. I could go on and on..... Please don't, I'm under-whelmed already. >Plus, Mac Tonnies made a very good point: <snip> I think Mac as gone softheaded in his advanced years <g> >>>Actually, I have. I just disagree. >>And what do you disagree with? Please be specific. >I disagree with the scenario because I think the one I have >presented is more likely, and there is stronger supportive data. >Bear in mind the book was only published 2 days ago and there's >already a lot of new data coming and there's a lot I didn't >publish too - for space reasons, mainly. Do you really believe >that story that the cameraman had this footage under his bed for >years?! I think it was in his attic over the garage. Yes I do believe him; he doesn't show deception during his Japanese interview (VSA), and he drew a map and gave very specific directions to a dry lake crash site with burned vegetation, covered with a strange blue material. He also provided two drawings that exactly match the crash site. Ray Santilli who also doesn't show any deception (VSA on Fox TV interview) verified through photo albums and other documents that the cameraman was who he said he was. He was convinced enough to hand over $100,000 for private investor (Volker Speilberg) who later stated that he was more than satisfied with his purchase. Were they somehow part of this government deception? If not, what part did they play? >>Maybe so but I still don't feel safe. >You don't feel safe? What on earth do you think I am going to do >- sprinkle cyanide on your cornflakes!? Ed, that is a truly, >truly bizarre thing for you to say - "I don't feel safe." My >God, what the List will make of you from that statement I >shudder to think..... Shudder away but you've pushed my paranoia buttons. I can't imagine why you'd want me there when it's obvious to me and it should be by now to the list, that you don't have the slightest idea about my views. I've not been quite the same since reading "Project Beta". >>Yes but if we focus on our own beliefs correctly and are correct >>then the subject will go forward. >Which is precisely why you should have accepted the offer to >speak! You strongly believe the AA is real, as an alien event, >and I respect your freedom to hold that opinion. But ironically, >although I disagree with you, it was me that gave you the chance >to explain, to a packed audience, why you felt it was real - and >that could have helped you move forward. You chose not to >because you don't feel safe. I gave you every opportunity to >deliver a powerful lecture to an audience that would have >listened very closely and you said, "No". Your decision. So I hope >you never say people aren't giving you every opportunity to get >your view across. They are. You are choosing not to take that >opportunity. I don't care about convincing large groups of people, although I was looking forward to meeting Peter Robins. My main want is a few more good researchers to work with. Wendy's been a wonderful addition. >>>I wouldn't choose to be in the same room with you. What would be >>the point? >Er... how about to debate the merits of the film? We could have done that months or years ago. But first you'd have to refresh your understanding of my position and research and some of the basic details of previous discussions on this List and elsewhere. You haven't done your homework, you haven't studied the footage, you don't know the AA history, and you haven't been paying attention. It should be clear to the list that you're in need of remedial instruction. I suggest you start with my article on the crash site:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 US Space Program From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:36:45 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:00:15 -0400 Subject: US Space Program I believe that the List was debating, a few months ago, the efficacy of Bush's space program... --- Report Says Space Program Is Lacking Money and Focus by John Schwartz Two experts say the Bush administration's plans for human space exploration are doomed to failure without a major infusion of money. http://tinyurl.com/dqztu
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Miller >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) <snip> >Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory >chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic >satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul >beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney >was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. >Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly >lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? Hello Alfred, Couldn't disagree with you more, to the point where I am wondering if we're reading the same posts. Firstly, you must remove John Rimmer from your over generalisation. The man has displayed a civility and decency that raises him to a new level as far as I'm concerned. At the very moment that Ufology was laid low on its back, he reaches down and extends a helping hand. And I think you are missing a point. To carry on with this labeling nonsense of sceptics versus believers etc., you are witnessing just as much of a negative reaction from some of the sceptics as from those on the other side of the fence. They too are struggling to come to terms with Nick's book and are clearly lamenting the possible loss of this case just as much as we are, and it would seem, bizarrely, for much the same reasons. It is amusing to watch. The boundaries are becoming blurred. It may be, as Mr. Clark has hinted, that we are indeed at the beginning of a new journey of cooperation and progress. We may soon Alfred, have no one left to fight against, other than those who perpetuated this whole ghastly affair. And that would be the irony of ironies. A disinformation campaign that finally fails and ends up uniting the Ufological community instead of getting it to turn in on itself. It is interesting that you mention Mr. Smith's name. I too would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 58 Years Ago Today Arnold's 'Flying Saucers' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:09:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:09:39 -0400 Subject: 58 Years Ago Today Arnold's 'Flying Saucers' Source: Frank Warren's Blog http://tinyurl.com/a287p Friday, June 24, 2005 This Day 58 Years Ago Kenneth Arnold Gives Birth To 'Flying Saucers' [Kenneth Arnold and UFO Pic] Impossible! Maybe, But Seein' Is Believin', Says Flier East Oregonian 6-25-1947 Kenneth Arnold, with the fire control at Boise and who was flying in southern Washington yesterday afternoon in search of a missing marine plane, stopped here en route to Boise today with an unusual story -- which he doesn't expect people to believe but which he declared was true. He said he sighted nine saucer-like aircraft flying in formation at 3. p.m. yesterday, extremely bright -- as if they were nickel plated -- and flying at an immense rate of speed. He estimated they were at an altitude between 9,500 and 10,000 feet and clocked them from Mt. Rainier to Mt. Adams, arriving at the amazing speed of about 1200 miles an hour. "It seemed impossible," he said, "but there it is -- I must believe my eyes." He landed at Yakima somewhat later and inquired there, but learned nothing. Talking about it to a man from Ukiah in Pendleton this morning whose name he did not get, he was amazed to learn that the man had sighted the same aerial objects
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Microsoft NASA & UFOs From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:10:41 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:37:38 -0400 Subject: Microsoft NASA & UFOs A few days ago Microsoft launched a competition inviting people to submit UFO/alien photographs, real or fake. People were also challenged to locate a UFO held at a secret military facility. The top prize is a holiday in Florida with VIP access to NASA's Space Center at Cape Canaveral. I'm judging the competition, as is Peter Varnish, a former MOD Scientific Adviser at the British Embassy in Washington, who's also served as Director of Science for Ballistic Missile Defence: http://www.msnspacerace.co.uk/ As a result of this, I've received various media enquiries and numerous emails from ufologists and conspiracy theorists. Some people have suggested that this is a government/corporate attempt to obtain UFO photographs and/or details of ufologists. Others have gone further and suggested it's part of a campaign to acclimatize the public to an extraterrestrial reality, prior to an official announcement - the Project Mindshift hypothesis. The proximity to the UK premiere of The War of the Worlds has been mentioned, and the fact that Microsoft is involved led someone to ask me whether their technology was based on something from the Roswell crash, given to them by Colonel Philip Corso. I should make it clear that none of the above rumors are correct. This is not an official venture.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:17:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:41:02 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >I'm still convinced that a craft crashed in two locations (blew >apart in the air) NW of Roswell, close to ten PM on the 2nd of >July, 1947. Creatures were recovered along with the craft they >were flying. The main body of the craft was recovered the 3rd >and morning of the 4th. >The remainder of the material was later discovered and reported >by Mac Brazil and recovered during the 8th and 9th of July. Some >of the debris mixed with parts of from radar reflector and >balloon pieces were sent to Ft. Worth and photographed. We differ on the timeline, Ed. What crashed near Socorro and was the origin of the debris and creatures in the AA film came down on the last day of May, 1947. The fireball was seen by many people as it streaked across the New Mexico sky that evening just after sunset. The elderly American Indian woman that Mike Hesemann and I interviewed remembers it clearly, as it was one of the most exciting things that happened during her life. She remembers the date precisely because it was her birthday. Among her people seeing something like this is regarded as a very evil omen. The cameraman and the rest of the military personnel were dispatched to the crash site on June 1, 1947. I don't know how many days the recovery operation took. The cameraman says he always assumed that what he was involved in was the Roswell crash because the teams all worked out of Roswell AAF, and went from there to the crash site in convoys. I think that what Mac Brazil found had been lying there over a month when he stumbled onto it. The important people at Roswell already knew about the earlier recovery operation when he showed up in town with his story and debris. The coverup may have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:05:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:45:02 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) ><snip> >>Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory >>chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic >>satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul >>beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney >>was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. >>Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly >>lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? >Hello Alfred, >Couldn't disagree with you more, to the point where I am >wondering if we're reading the same posts. We are... >Firstly, you must remove John Rimmer from your over >generalisation. Mmmmm, no... it remains, Sir, that you might welcome a conflicted mole into your midst as there are... years? ...of avian behaviors to reflect upon here... and what has walked like a duck and quacked like a duck must remain a duck very plausibly... and so be considered a duck for a residual amount of time remaining. But you're to be commended, of course, for _your_ collegiality . >The man has displayed a civility and decency >that raises him to a new level as far as I'm concerned. I'm not so quick to 'forgive'. I suspect a loss leading collegiality, only, given that this new Roswell flavor, as legitimate as it may be in the end, is a small trifecta for his camp and he can afford, then, a gracious collegiality, now, to maximize regressive gains to be made ...later. The attitude by some folks here is a little like the attitude of a child thankful that daddy stopped beating him abruptly because he had maimed the child's finger (or was able to advantage himself as a result). It remains that he has not played by the same rules, almost to date, like any good CSICOPian. What could explain such an abrupt turn-around but the calculation I have described above? >At the >very momenttends a helping hand. Stopped metaphori that Ufology was laid low on its back, he reaches down and excally beating or wounding ~your~ honest and honorable sensibilities, you mean. That _would_ feel good. You'll remember he was a metaphoric snake when that helping hand transforms into the head of the viper. No - I perceive a gracious dodge, easy grace in a supposed victory. >And I think you are missing a point. No Sir, you miss the point. My point is a reminder to all players that UFOs... shall not... go away... as a result of the hotly debated dust raised around _one_ old case. I would caution same reviewing the earlier duck analogy. >To carry on with this >labeling nonsense of sceptics versus believers etc., you are >witnessing just as much of a negative reaction from some of the >sceptics as from those on the other side of the fence. No Sir - I'm the metaphoric communist created by the metaphoric unrestricted capitalist. You confederate yourself with a person who would keep the discussion regarding UFOs at the level of a plausible deniability that UFOs exist at all. Every blow in their tedious little anti-ufological campaign is aimed with that goal in mind and their eyes are on _that_ prize. Nothing has occurred to change that, Sir. Nothing. >They too are struggling to come to terms with Nick's book and >are clearly lamenting the possible loss of this case just as >much as we are, and it would seem, bizarrely, for much the same >reasons. I think not. I think that they are maneuvering and going to maneuver to complete their objective, and that objective is to make UFOs go away, one, and two, make the serious (funded) investigation of UFOs _itself_ ludicrous. These are not truth seekers, Mr. Miller. They are what they were day before yesterday: Canted Axe-grinders. Moreover, I did not create them as in the communist analogy above... they have created me. >It is amusing to watch. I'm aggrieved by same. >The boundaries are becoming blurred. Put your scuba mask back on. >It may be, as Mr. Clark has hinted, that we are indeed at the >beginning of a new journey of cooperation and progress. American Indians felt the exact same way 501 times in their dealing with the government of the United States... they were disappointed 501 times and treaty signings later. I advise caution. >We may soon Alfred, have no one left to fight against, other >than those who perpetuated this whole ghastly affair. Not sure what you're saying here... but I don't see a struggle between passionate truth-seekers and ardent denialists ending anytime, remotely, soon. >And that >would be the irony of ironies. Or a fallacy of fallacies. >A disinformation campaign that >finally fails and ends up uniting the Ufological community >instead of getting it to turn in on itself. Stranger things _have_ happened, but in the past we're usually provoked into turning on ourselves while the denialist opposition doing the provoking stands to watch in cooperating glee. >It is interesting that you mention Mr. Smith's name. I too would >be very interested in his observations on this matter. Really - would you? Interested? Huh! Boy, the hyperbole breaker pops, but I feel like I'm down on the beach with Montezuma telling him to kill the Spaniards as they wade ashore. I'll keep an open mind... but a horse is a horse, of course of course... All respect to you and your gentility, Sir, sincerely... but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 UFO Video Hoaxes From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:22:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:48:14 -0400 Subject: UFO Video Hoaxes UFO Video Hoaxes I had no vested interest one way or the other in the authenticity of this footage, but just realized that many are quick to jump to a conclusion before all the facts have been collected and an analysis done. If the analysis is negative, then we must post that information. It is to everyone's benefit to be apprised of the facts in a video case and be informed when a hoax has been perpetrated. I am afraid a hoaxer cannot last long these days as we become wiser about the methods used. I called my friend Jim Dilettoso about the Brian Bessent video and found that he will shortly release a report. He found certain artifacts while doing image analysis that indicates this video was a computer construction. He reminded me of Tom King�s video hoax of a light he called "Bubba" that seemed to appear on a periodic basis. Jim does a spectral analysis of these lights, something he was criticized over; nevertheless it is something now done by the Department of Defense. In order to allay doubts about the histograms Jim did with professional software (which I started to learn), Jim did an intensity histogram over 50 frames of the Phoenix Lights video of March 13, 1997 to find that the ignition rise, flat plateau, and extinguish fall were unlike any flares which, when analyzed, produced a jagged histogram. Jim agrees with me that John Edmonds footage is the real deal and it his footage we should be viewing. I have a small segment of this footage taken in Rainbow Valley, AZ in the year 2002 on my website shown adjacent to Mike Kryzsten�s video taken on March 13, 1997 to show the actual form of the Phoenix lights which appear to be spherical and have a type of raster movement when seen under magnification (visually as well as on the video). John has other video he has taken of these orbs in company with the large Delta UFOs which he has had close encounters with. I want to thank Santiago Yturria Garza for keeping me informed of this matter and Jim Dilettoso for coming to the front to apply his excellent skills in making a determination of the true nature of Brian�s footage. I was cautious about jumping to any conclusions as is so often done in this research until we have examined the facts, the evidence, and the viewpoints involved. With such investigative skills, hoaxers will not last long in their attempts to deceive the public just in order to use their ruse to discredit genuine UFO evidence. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton AstroScience Research Network http://www.astrosciences.info/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:23:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:44 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:26:32 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >That's very new. I hope that you are not alluding to the rumor >that Walter Haut was reprimanded, because there was nothing like >that, according to all witnesses. Nope. I am not saying that. >Again, I don't see how it would have been so different. Anyway, >these sinister post-war experiments are no longer big secrets >to be denied at all costs. They have been revealed, gradually. Ok, since it looks like I have to go over this again, let me try and get the distinction across in a way that anyone and everyone should hopefully understand. It's one thing to do the radiation experiments that have been already admitted to and acknowledged. But do you have any real idea of the things Unit 731 did? It went way, way, beyond the controversy of radiation experiments in late 40s USA. Read a few books on 731 and you'll see what I mean. They made Mengele look like Santa Claus. If you think there is no distinction between admitting to doing radiation experiments and admitting to complicity with Unit 731 people, you are very off target. >And Neil Moris has rightly pointed out that such experiments >in White Sands would have been very difficult to achieve in >complete secrecy, at least at the time of the Roswell incident. >Just imagine : huge balloons, and gondolas or Horten gliders with >Japanese prisoners on board! The NYU team, at the same >time, had a lot of difficulties assembling its balloon trains >and launching them. Indeed. But, have you ever been to White Sands? I have and on several occasions in 2001 - to the base I mean. Do you have any idea of the size of it: situated in the Tularosa Basin of south- central New Mexico, the range boundaries extend almost 100 miles north-to-south by 40 miles east-to-west; and with a square mileage of almost 3,200 miles. It's not some football field sized location where everyone is bumping into each other. ><snip> >Let me try to understand your scenario. First, there are these >weird experiments in White Sands. A huge balloon with crew is >lost in the Foster Ranch. The RAAF thinks it is a saucer and >announces it (they don't mention the crew). They don't mention it because at first they don't know: Brazel doesn't tell them until he is held on base that he found a body at another location on the ranch. Until that point he has only mentioned the debris field. >From the interviews I did, Brazel was scared rigid by the body (>only one that he found) and said nothing until questioned by >Sheridan Cavitt as to why he was so frightened. Brazel then told Cavitt, who realized that there was more to this and finally Cavitt was then entrusted with the full story from White Sands and became the main man at Roswell knowing the real picture. >Now, in your scenario, the military decide to debunk Roswell, >with the help of Silas Newton, and the book of Frank Scully in >1950. But there is no need for that! In fact, the book does not >even mention a crash in Roswell. But that's the point: the last thing they wanted was people focusing on Roswell, so they provide a load of other faked stories in other locations. After they originally shut down the Roswell controversy with "It's a weather balloon" there are still rumors floating around, so the next step is not just to hide things with crashed UFO tales (carefully created tales that will soon thereafter be exposed as hoaxes thereby debunking crashes and making people give up crash research - which is exactly what happened until the late 70s), but to have the faked crash stories situated in anywhere _but_ Roswell! It was seen as much better to have people chasing spurious crashes in Utah, Aztec, Kingman, Spitsbergen, - anywhere but Roswell after they had got the lid down. So everyone leaves Roswell alone because it's just a weather balloon according to the military. So the researchers then go after Aztec, which they find to be traceable to Silas Newton, and they smell hoax, and then they find hoax, and then...they quit doing crashed UFO research. And as the White Sands events were a direct part of this smokescreen, the follow-on from these people quitting doing crashed UFO research, is that no-one looks into Roswell. Until the late 70s. It was successful for that long - largely - in keeping it hidden. >Another question - what did they mean, in the documents you >found, by high altitude "mutation" experiments? Determining the effects on the human body from prolonged, extremely high altitude exposure. >Now I repeat that, if your surrealist story happens to be the >truth, the more the military wait to reveal it, the more >ridiculous they are going to be! I don't think - nor have I ever thought - that the military have any desire to reveal this. As I said in the interview with Stuart Miller, if the scenario is as I present it (and I believe it is) and that the bodies, the aircraft and the balloons were destroyed (because there was nothing unique about them as there would be with a crashed UFO) and files were destroyed to hide
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:28:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:58:33 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Smith >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory >>chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic >>satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul >>beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney >>was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. >>Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly >>lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? >Couldn't disagree with you more, to the point where I am >wondering if we're reading the same posts. >And I think you are missing a point. To carry on with this >labeling nonsense of sceptics versus believers etc., you are >witnessing just as much of a negative reaction from some of the >sceptics as from those on the other side of the fence. >They too are struggling to come to terms with Nick's book and >are clearly lamenting the possible loss of this case just as >much as we are, and it would seem, bizarrely, for much the same >reasons. >We may soon Alfred, have no one left to fight against, other >than those who perpetuated this whole ghastly affair. And that >would be the irony of ironies. A disinformation campaign that >finally fails and ends up uniting the Ufological community >instead of getting it to turn in on itself. >It is interesting that you mention Mr. Smith's name. I too would >be very interested in his observations on this matter. Thank you for showing an interest in my opinions. I normally don't answer Mr. Lehmberg directly simply because it is too "complex" to carry on a discussion. There is really _no_ common ground, which is alright by me. Too many insults. Too many cryptic remarks. I don't have all day to sift through his rhetoric for meaning. Some call this poetic although it seems more like irrationality. But it seems popular with some folk, so let them have their Lehmbergian diatribes. Anyway, I have not nor have ever been a CSICOPian. A skeptic... but with a craving to prove UFOs are real alien vehicles (to me, the rest of humanity can believe what it wants, I am not doing this gratis UFO work for a public service). As to my viewpoint on this Roswell book, I have not read it and will likely not. I have only followed the posts lightly. I have a bit of a problem with such cases. They are entertaining but, as proof, go back too far in time, records are lost (destroyed) by normal decay. We have to rely on hearsay. I am not saying it would not be an interesting book to read. I am saying I just want some conclusive data rather than speculation. I am not in need of ufological entertainment. We have plenty of cases of official UFO reports by the military to conclude UFOs are real vehicles (if you want to believe them given all the misinformation going on). I need to get data following such vehicles off-planet to really "believe" they are alien. Given the vast numbers of UFOs seen _currently_, why can't we devote more energies to building a network to track such things, hopefully off-planet. Lazy I guess. Sorry to wander from Roswell. It sounds like the author has done some good work in gathering various pieces of data but it sounds still like speculation. This is sort of the same issue for Socorro being explained prosaicly. The device sounds like its from Earth, but the records show no such device having existed. But the device with its loud engines seems to be derived from the jet packs at the time, not the typical "alien" graceful flying devices. But the calculations show that it isn't viable to use those jet pack engines (or others at the time) to carry two people in such a craft (of course if the two crew were not crew, but just "uniforms" flapping in the breeze, then we could get somewhere). The same for Cash-Landrum. Looks like a nuclear thermal rocket (maybe nuclear electric), but we did not have the tech then to do this. But would aliens use this hazardous type engine instead of their "normal" non-exhaust propulsion?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:37:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:03:55 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Redfern >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Nick, >Hearsay is evidence that is based on reports of others rather >that the witnesses own knowledge. Ed, Yes, exactly, and my witnesses are passing on their firsthand recollections about _how_ they knew the real story, _why_ they knew the real story, _where_ they worked, _how_ they helped hide the real picture behind crashed UFO smokescreens, _how_ they witnessed the bodies at Oak Ridge. None of this is hearsay; it is people relating what they saw and what they did at an official level firsthand with regard to Roswell - that makes them direct witnesses as far as their participation is concerned, in the same way that Marcel, or whoever, are witnesses re their participation. >These are interesting stories but I can't see the relevance to >Roswell and how this information cancels out Roswell witness >testimony or is connected in any way to the AA. It actually doesn't cancel out a lot of the testimony of the Roswell witnesses. By that I mean that there isn't actually too much of a discrepancy between the scenario my sources present and the crashed UFO theory. We both talk about more than one crash location, we both acknowledge a huge cover-up, we both acknowledge bodies recovered, we both acknowledge the recovery of a device (or devices). The key point is that I am convinced that many of the Roswell witnesses _are_ completely and utterly genuine in their statements that they saw something like they had never seen before. But the most important thing is that those that inadvertently saw things weren't cleared to know what it was that they were seeing, so largely it's the interpretation of what they saw that I am addressing, not that they didn't see anything. And so tales of unusual bodies in the desert, small guys in flight suits (who are already decomposing and smashed), Horten vehicles, etc., later become intermingled with tales of crashed UFOs created officially and then the legend of the Roswell UFO crash begins to take shape. So, I don't dispute the claims of people who said they saw bodies, or a vehicle, or a military cordon, or who were threatened - in fact, the opposite. But I strongly believe, based on what I have learned, that they didn't recognize what it was that they were really seeing. >I don't see how your research contradicts that basic Roswell story. As above: in many ways the version of the people I have spoken with actually _doesn't_ contradict the basic story of the UFO scenario because I am still saying (as above) several crash sites, weird bodies, people threatened. The only real major difference is in the interpretation of what the bodies and vehicle _were_ and not whether they existed or not, not whether they crashed, and not whether there was a huge cover-up to hide the craft and bodies - there certainly was! >How do you account for the Ft. Worth debris photos and Ramey's >explanation. The Ramey Memo is genuinely intriguing but the balloon debris? Well, if you want to hide a classified project that was in part balloon-based, what better way to do it than hide it with a balloon-based op that was already in place such as the regular launching of weather balloons, etc.? Or, later on, with Mogul? As several of the people told me, New Mexico at the time (and this is indeed true) was absolutely swarming with military-based balloon projects, which is precisely why the Mogul balloon and the weather balloon scenarios were introduced. Some of the people involved knew that the things they had seen looked balloon-like, so then if the Government comes along and says it really was a classified balloon (but of a different type, such as Mogul), then that lays the foundation of doubt in their minds that maybe it really was Mogul after all. >But you haven't provided us with their names so we can talk to >them and hear their story. As I mentioned, half of them in the book _are_ named. Some name changes were made to my original manuscript by the Legal people/Attorneys at Simon & Schuster. I had (and still have) no control over those name changes. In a similar scenario: have you ever by chance heard of a character Deep Throat? He was apparently quite a popular chap in the 1970s. He provided controversial data, his name was withheld for various legal reasons, he was limited to speaking to a small and select body of investigators, but ultimately his information helped uncover various dubious activities on a massive scale, and eventually he surfaced. That will happen here, too. Guaranteed. >Then how did Ray Santilli get the footage and was he duped or is >he part of their (Govt) plan? No I don't think Santilli is a knowing player in any plan; but he may have been used as a conduit without his knowledge. But I can assure you I do know all about your research and have read it extensively. Okay, ET was a generalization when I said that - I should have more accurately said something non-Homo Sapiens, as I know all about your views (such as how you think these things possibly give birth, etc.). And I have dug very deep into the autopsy story. Philip Mantle will be able to tell you that I sent him some intriguing info years ago re the cameraman. And on related matters (to demonstrate what I have been doing re looking into the AA): Did you know that there is a really big story about how certain footage relative to the AA was located during the Air Force's Roswell search for crash-test dummy info? This wasn't found in the Mogul search; this happened in 1996 prior to publication of the Dummy report in 1997 and has implications for AFOSI and DIA? It wasn't exactly the same footage, but it was definitely connected. Did you know that the AF was unable to determine where the footage actually originated, but that a suspicion existed that it was possibly a part of a disinformation game; and that one suspicion was that the Russians had made it and fed it to the US years ago as part of a very bizarre psychological warfare ploy? Did you know that a discussion went on between the AF and another agency of Government at the time the crash-test dummy report was being prepared, specifically on the subject of the film and that the matter was dropped because there was no way to determine where the film came from, what it really showed, etc. Did you know that the Air Force has on file some very unusual documents that deal with an inquiry that they very quietly made (within official circles) to determine if AA had been made by Walt Disney Company (again years ago) as part of a psy-war op against the Russians that was never used? The reason was that in the course of making the inquiry they learned that there had been a previous plan to get WD involved in something very similar. The interesting thing is that I know for certain that today's Air Force is as baffled as we are by what the film shows and where it originated. >I think Mac as gone softheaded in his advanced years Re Mac: Again, Ed, as you did with me, you make personal comments about him rather than focus on the data. I've noticed that you do that when someone says something you don't like. That implies an emotional tie to your research, rather than a straightforward, unbiased study. >He doesn't show deception during his Japanese interview >(VSA), and he drew a map and gave very specific directions to a >dry lake crash site with burned vegetation, covered with a >strange blue material. He also provided two drawings that >exactly match the crash site. I'm actually not saying he's lying: it's the nature of the film and the interpretation of what the film shows I am talking about. As you know so much about the film, I am sure you are aware that on UK TV Santilli said, years ago, that the cameraman was of the opinion that the creatures_weren't_ alien? >I can't imagine why you'd want me there. Ed, it does not bother me in the slightest whether you are there or not; and I have no motivation in wanting you there, either. The invitation for you to speak was made purely because you are at the forefront of AA research, and the AA was a topic that the conference wanted to cover in a lecture format. So you were asked. End of story. >It should be clear to the list that you're in need of remedial >instruction. See, Ed, you are doing it again with your "remedial instruction" comment. Getting all personal instead of focusing on debating things. It doesn't do your image any good to say that I need remedial attention, that Mac has gone softheaded, or that you don't feel "safe" around me. In fact, it creates a highly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: Nick Redfern Off-Line - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:48:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:05:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Off-Line - Redfern List I'm not around from tomorrow until July 2. I'm sure the Roswell thread will continue. However, if anyone has questions specifically for me rather than general comments/questions for the List, could they hold off posting until my return, as I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Some Thoughts On Roswell From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:25:31 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:08:01 -0400 Subject: Some Thoughts On Roswell A few days ago I received in the post an article for inclusion in the next issue of UFO Review from Andrew Pike. UK List members will remember Andrew as the astronomy correspondent for the now defunct UK version of UFO magazine. He was with the mag for a great many years and earned a reputation as a very knowledgeable and sober author. Andrew has not read the Nick Redfern interview yet and was not aware of its existence when he wrote his piece but amongst other things in his article, he is extremely scathing about the news from Brazil and the government's changed approach down there. He is utterly convinced that it is a CIA controlled action. I doubt that he has any proof of that whatsoever and his opinion is based upon years of observation and a perhaps slightly more advanced awareness than most of the activities of the Intelligence services. I think some of you will be ahead of me by now but, is it a coincidence that one week we get a major story from a country with a strong allegiance to the United States with stories of aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin and two weeks later we get a story that arguably collapses one of the principle alien related cases of the genre, with a possible domino effect on the rest of the subject?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Secrecy News -- 06/24/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:57:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:10:11 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/24/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 59 June 24, 2005 ** OPENNESS ON THE AGENDA IN RUSSIA ** HOMELAND SECURITY SECRECY ** GPO POLICY ON WITHDRAWING PUBLIC INFORMATION ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS OPENNESS ON THE AGENDA IN RUSSIA The Russian cabinet yesterday began consideration of a draft law to expand public access to government information. The new legislation would "make the activity of all state bodies more transparent and understandable to citizens," said Russian President Vladimir Putin. Such transparency is "a most important political question for the country and a most important aspect of development of civil society," he said. The draft law begins: "This Federal law determines the structure and general conditions for access by citizens and organizations to information about the activity of state bodies and local self-government bodies; it is directed toward assuring the accessibility and openness of information for citizens and organizations; and also toward the realization of public oversight [obshchestvennyy kontrol'] of the activity of state bodies and local self-government bodies" (trans. by Allen Thomson). The full Russian text of the draft law on "Ensuring Access to Information about the Activity of State Bodies and Local Self- Rule" is available here (thanks to Andrei Soldatov and Agentura.ru): http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/06/russia-access.pdf "I believe that above all else we should enable citizens to have access to objective information," said Russian President Putin in his April 25, 2005 state of the nation address. "In this respect I have hopes of the draft law on the information openness of state bodies which is currently being discussed. It is important that it is adopted as soon as possible." See: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/04/putin042505.html HOMELAND SECURITY SECRECY While values of openness and accountability are tentatively taking root in some improbable corners of the world, they are steadily being eroded in the United States. "About $8 billion in homeland security funds has been doled out to states since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but the public has little chance of knowing how all of that money is being spent," according to Congressional Quarterly. See "Billions in States' Homeland Purchases Kept in the Dark" by Eileen Sullivan, CQ Homeland Security, June 22: http://www.cq.com/public/20050622A_homeland.html While one can imagine various details of homeland security- related expenditures that might properly be kept confidential, the tide of secrecy has swept away far more than such details. Records of environmental pollution due to animal waste are exempt from public disclosure in Delaware, for example, as the result of a 2000 amendment to that state's freedom of information laws, along with many other categories of official records, a recent news story reports. See "Citizens often kept from public data" by Jeff Montgomery and Molly Murray, Delaware News Journal, June 19 (thanks to JC): http://tinyurl.com/88tbc GPO POLICY ON WITHDRAWING PUBLIC INFORMATION The Government Printing Office (GPO) has updated its policy for responding to government agency requests to withdraw previously disclosed records from public access. "The GPO takes very seriously any Federal agency's request to restrict access to Government information that has been made public. However, the GPO cooperates with Federal agencies in the appropriate distribution of the official information they publish," the policy states. Potential justifications for withdrawing records from public access include the presence of classified information or sensitive but unclassified information. See "Withdrawal of Federal Information Products from GPO's Information Dissemination Programs," Government Printing Office Information Dissemination Policy 72, June 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/id72.pdf SELECTED CRS REPORTS Recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "'Bunker Busters': Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator Issues, FY2005 and FY 2006," updated June 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32347.pdf "Homeland Security Department: FY2006 Appropriations," updated June 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32863.pdf "Federal Protection for Human Research Subjects: An Analysis of the Common Rule and Its Interactions with FDA Regulations and the HIPAA Privacy Rule," updated June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32909.pdf "Parliament and Congress: A Brief Comparison of the British House of Commons and the U.S. House of Representatives," updated May 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32206.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:12:26 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees >that Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a >way to break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to >go beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that >(a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET event Jerry, I am still waiting for solid arguments to reach such a conclusion. And I see many strong arguments to the contrary. (as the author of a 480 pages book on Roswell, of which I sent you a copy. Sorry, it's in french, and it's largely based on the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:14:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:15:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:28:58 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are Linked >Source: Mac Tonnies' Blog >http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com >There's a stubborn myth that no qualified medical doctors think >the 'alien autopsy' is 'real'. This persistent notion is >resoundingly false, as the following piece demonstrates. >Part of the reluctance of doctors and pathologists to go on >record supporting a progeria/polydactyly origin for the AA stems >from the ufological "giggle factor"; when shown footage and told >what they're seeing is an alien from another world, their >resistance is understandable. Mac, The mistake is telling the doctors anything before the footage is presented. The only doctor I've asked to view the footage felt that he was seeing something humanoid but not a human and that the footage depicted a real procedure. We didn't discuss the possibility of "an alien from another world", since I've rejected that notion since I theorize that the creature in the AA may be alien to us, but from this world. >But viewed in a human context, >free of the baggage that accompanies tales of crashed flying >saucers, the AA makes a great deal of sense. I don't know how you can free it from that context. The footage came from the cameraman who said it was in the context of a crashed craft and the creatures on board that craft. He shot the film and he should know. The footage cannot be discussed out of context. That context includes Ray Santilli, the cameraman, the Socorro crash site, Volker Speilberg, and the second autopsy footage requiring another almost identical "genetically deformed girl". Anyone who connects Progeria to the creature in the AA needs both their eyes and their heads examined. I have seen Progeria up close and in person. As for Jansen's statement: "A textbook case... all the typical identifying characteristics of the illness progeria". All I can say is he wasn't watching very carefully. There is only one characteristic of Progeria that the creature exhibits: six fingers. The beauty of the AA is that anyone can be an expert as long as time is taken to really examine the footage. Once a person believes that what they're watching is a real event and that the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:42:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:17:05 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:38 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- >level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- >related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue >leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly >contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on >pp. 191-3 of his classic book, the veritable Bible of >critically- sifted Roswell investigative data (2001). It may >interest some of you to know that the TOP SECRET Roswell policy >response also contradicts Redfern's scenario in every respect, >and in fact would be be rendered absurd by his scenario.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:58:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:05:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) <snip> >Stopped metaphori that Ufology was laid low on its back, he >reaches down and excally beating or wounding your honest and >honorable sensibilities, you mean. That _would_ feel good. >You'll remember he was a metaphoric snake when that helping hand >transforms into the head of the viper. No - I perceive a >gracious dodge, easy grace in a supposed victory. <snip> The preceding was garbled and was to have read: "Stopped metaphorically beating or wounding _your_ honest and honorable sensibilities, you mean. That would feel good. You'll remember he was a metaphoric snake when that helping hand transforms into the head of the viper. No - I perceive a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:25:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:41:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End Hi, Gildas, >>In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees >>that Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a >>way to break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to >>go beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that >>(a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET event >I am still waiting for solid arguments to reach such a >conclusion. >And I see many strong arguments to the contrary. Good. I think a vigorous discussion in light of these new developments will be good for everybody and help clarify the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various Roswell interpretations. I look forward to reading what you have to say. As you know, I have high regard your opinion and your work, and this is a highly complicated subject on which reasonable people will have different opinions. I do hope, however, that soon, one way or another, we will have sufficient clarity that serious observers can reach a consensus concerning what did or did not happen. >(as the author of a 480 pages book on Roswell, of which I sent >you a copy. Sorry, it's in french, and it's largely based on the >good work of many others, I must admit). Sigh. I wish I could speak French. My daughter, who lives in France, can speak it, of course, but I doubt that I could persuade her to translate 480 pages for me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:31:44 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:56:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Boone >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:25:31 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Some Roswell Thoughts >A few days ago I received in the post an article for inclusion >in the next issue of UFO Review from Andrew Pike. UK List >members will remember Andrew as the astronomy >correspondent for >the now defunct UK version of UFO magazine. He was with the >mag >for a great many years and earned a reputation as a very >knowledgeable and sober author. >Andrew has not read the Nick Redfern interview yet and was >not >aware of its existence when he wrote his piece but amongst >other >things in his article, he is extremely scathing about the news >from Brazil and the government's changed approach down >there. He >is utterly convinced that it is a CIA controlled action. I doubt >that he has any proof of that whatsoever and his opinion is >based upon years of observation and a perhaps slightly more >advanced awareness than most of the activities of the >Intelligence services. >I think some of you will be ahead of me by now but, is it a >coincidence that one week we get a major story from a country >with a strong allegiance to the United States with stories of >aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin and two weeks later >we >get a story that arguably collapses one of the principle alien >related cases of the genre, with a possible domino effect on the >rest of the subject? >I think we should be told. Stuart, thanks so much! :) As I knew at the beginning of this year and had posted, on this List, that we needed to top 2004 with UFO news. We've done that in half a year and I'm betting it's only the beginning! Nick Redfern's new book is for me like finding an old toy train set in the attic just waiting to be dusted off and see if it works. As for Brazil or anything South American I take all that with a grain of salt the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. We're passed the 'weird thing happened disclosed' part and now on to the 'Is this true and where do I put the fork' part. Redfern's book is intriguing to me because it's a story I had heard before but at that time said to myself that it's a last gasp hope of a tired disinformation campaign. I put it on the back burner and sure enough little by little it began to kick off an aroma meaning something was cooking. What it was required eye witness testimony, documents and above all physical proof. For me, a disclosure from a top engineer who did some research for me. Hipped me to Unit 731 in regard to UFOs. Again, I put it on the back burner and did not mention to this list anything because if I don't have a source name I don't mention it. Plain and simple. More data simmered up and I was lucky enough to have had fans from an old online magazine I worked at, called Parascope, that kept in touch with me over the years doing UFO research. I had no idea many of them owned their own global corporations, institutions of research and more! No small fries I'll tell you. Each source had some tidbit that could, I say, could support Nick's research! So I got on the phone and email and sent them all a copy of your review email. For me, there are four (4) points in Redfern's research that I can have proven that would be enough for me. If out of that four only one is validated, he still wins a great deal. I've even chatted with Nick on email about one source that is irrefutably the expert on one major part of his research. Without a doubt the experts there have every damned detail Nick could want. I sent them your review. Guess what? They chickened out. "What?" says I. These experts I've known some for over 30 years as they were heroes of mine as a kid and worked in advanced technologies with my family members. They read that review and backed off faster than a houndog on a polecat. Normally they'd be a-jawin' til the cows came home and then gone back to jawin' til the cows went out! Why the shut mouths all of a sudden? I know why and so does a top UFO researcher here who has neglected and futzed his way out of facing certain UFO issues which isn't a surprise :) As I mentioned, I have four (4) bodies of experts who can verify those four points of Nick's research that I find of interest as if true, it's verifiable. So far Nick is 1:3 and that's good enough for me. What scares the hell out of me is that the second validation will come true. If it does, that's it, I'm outta here. My only advice after that would be get your shootin' irons and Bibles.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 24 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:37:49 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:33:11 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Friedman >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:17:20 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>I'm still convinced that a craft crashed in two locations (blew >>apart in the air) NW of Roswell, close to ten PM on the 2nd of >>July, 1947. Creatures were recovered along with the craft they >>were flying. The main body of the craft was recovered the 3rd >>and morning of the 4th. >>The remainder of the material was later discovered and reported >>by Mac Brazil and recovered during the 8th and 9th of July. Some >>of the debris mixed with parts of from radar reflector and >>balloon pieces were sent to Ft. Worth and photographed. >We differ on the timeline, Ed. What crashed near Socorro and was >the origin of the debris and creatures in the AA film came down >on the last day of May, 1947. The fireball was seen by many >people as it streaked across the New Mexico sky that evening >just after sunset. The elderly American Indian woman that Mike >Hesemann and I interviewed remembers it clearly, as it was one >of the most exciting things that happened during her life. She >remembers the date precisely because it was her birthday. Among >her people seeing something like this is regarded as a very evil >omen. >The cameraman and the rest of the military personnel were >dispatched to the crash site on June 1, 1947. I don't know how >many days the recovery operation took. The cameraman says he >always assumed that what he was involved in was the Roswell >crash because the teams all worked out of Roswell AAF, and went >from there to the crash site in convoys. >I think that what Mac Brazil found had been lying there over a >month when he stumbled onto it. The important people at Roswell >already knew about the earlier recovery operation when he showed >up in town with his story and debris. The coverup may have >already been fully planned just in case someone stumbled onto >debris and brought it into town. I have serious problems with the time line and the locations. Even if something did crash on May 31,1947, I cannot imagine why recovery operations would have been conducted out of Roswell. It was not an R and D center it was a busy SAC base. It is much farther from Socorro than either Kirtland or Alamogordo Air Field both of which were involved in R and D. There were many recovery teams at Alamogordo to cover the rockets being launched. Furthermore Mac Brazel had told other people that he had been in the area of the debris field the previous week and there was no debris there. No description includes anything that could be listed as a radar reflector. Somebody indicated there were very few first hand witnesses. The 105minute video Recollections of Roswell has testimony from 27 witnesses..... Many of whom have indeed pased away by now. Even if Nick's scenario did occur, I can't find the connection between that and the reports from either the debris field or the Plains of San Agustin.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:46:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:49:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:48:19 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:49:30 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:58:42 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>And who is to blame for people in the official world not wanting >>>>to touch UFOs in general and Roswell in particular? The ETH- >>>>inclined ufologists, of course, with their absurd speculations >>>>about clumsy aliens crashing their saucers and being carted off >>As Karl Pflock put it: >>"The anthropomorphic dunmies were ready- made for laughs and >>cheap shots. so, too, was the notion of flawed memories blending >>events widely separated in time, even though it is well-known >>that the vagaries of human memory frequently result in such >>misassociations. The naysayers' job was made even easier by the >>incredibly inept Pentagon press conference at which Case Closed >>was revealed." >>-Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to >>Believe, Prometheus Books, 2001, pp 139-140). >Well, Pflock is certainly right about the "ready-made for laughs >and cheap shots," not to mention for manifestly desperate straw- >clutching. No wonder even nonbelievers in UFOs found it unworthy >of belief but worthy of hearty chuckles. (I recall a >particularly hilarious cartoon on the subject by the well-known >political cartoonist Tom Tomorrow.) I think it is possible, in >any event, that soon we may see just who was on the wrong side >of "inconvenient facts and the will to believe." Hint: it wasn't >whom the AF, Pflock, and flocks of pelicanists thought. > >In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees that >Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a way to >break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to go >beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that > >(a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET >event > >and > >(b) Proponents were right to contend that the event was >genuinely mysterious and to pursue their investigation in the >face of fierce criticism and ridicule. > >That done, as John Rimmer urges and I concur, perhaps we can >look forward in the hope that, at long last, we have some >answers which, if and when properly documented, will lay a >contentious issue to rest and give satisfaction to all >reasonable observers. The issue over Roswell really boils down to what we think we have to explain. Limited to the contemporaneous evidence then the Mogul balloon or something very like it seems the best fit. In particular the press release seems to indicate that those involved assumed that what they had found was something rather innocuous which didn't look like an American or Russian secret project which would have profound security implications. This would be something which they hoped would diffuse the flying saucer scare and earn them brownie points with their bosses. However this does turn out to be something with major security implications hence the weather balloon explanation. What of course the Mogul balloon doesn't explain is the later testimonies, so everything boils down to how reliable you think they are. Subsequent events have surely at least cast a cloud of suspicion over them. The Air Force investigators clearly bent over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, hence the dummies story. John mentioned that I had suggested as a purely hypothetical scenario what the nastiest possible secret might be. My suggestion was rather similar to Nick's but several orders of magnitude nastier still. It went like this, assume that ufologists are right and there is (or rather was) a technology which you might call exotic, but is quite terrestrial. Why critics ask wasn't it used to win various conflicts. Answer it could never be made safe. Imagine that at the end of the war the Nazis had developed a radical new form of ultra high performance aircraft, with one major drawback, it invariably killed its pilots. No problem for the Nazis there were endless numbers of victims in the concentration camps. After the war a defector then tells the US government that the Soviets have got hold of this technology and they were reviving these experiments, endless number of victims in the Gulags. I forgot to add that only children were found to have subtle enough bodies to even fly these things for a handful of times before they succumbed. So the idea is got abroad that if the Soviets were performing these experiments then the US had to keep up, and where to find a supply of disposable children. They used mainly black children from orphanages and reformatories throughout the south. Not much coercion needed, after all being a test pilot was every boys dream. Year after year the experiments went on, the craft performed amazingly, the children kept dying. Then one day another defector proves that the Soviet's never went ahead with the experiments after all, the whole thing was a trap to get the US and its allies to perform terrible experiments and thus hand the Soviet's a huge propaganda coup. Imagine that story getting out in the 1960s or 1970s, its not just a few heads that roll, the US would have exploded in race war, its embassies around the world burned down, the government utterly discredited. Anything would have been felt justified to keep that little secret Of course this is pure fiction for which there is no evidence whatsoever, but if gives you the idea of what an ultimate secret might look like. Its under our control, its very, very bad and the passage of time doesn't make it any better, unlike a crashed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:24:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:53:08 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:28:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >Thank you for showing an interest in my opinions. _I'm_ not entirely sure that's what it was... were you? >I normally don't answer Mr. Lehmberg directly simply because it >is too "complex" to carry on a discussion. Too complex? For a person going out of his way to avoid the bone-close subjects at hand and assiduously endeavoring to fix on peripheral issues actually unrelated to whatever has been avoided in the first place, Mr. Smith, you have a convenient interpretation of what is "complex." I suspect the reasons for same may be "complex", too, Sir. >There is really _no_ common ground, which is alright by me. I suspect you would avoid common ground if we both knew adjacent plots in the middle of the same savanna, Mr. Smith. >Too many insults. Mr. Smith... with your narrow outlook I suspect you conveniently find 'anything' contrary "insulting". For my part, I could be "insulting", much of the time; easily given the bald provocation for same! I could excel at it! Could indeed wax poetic, I think! Finally, I find your intimation of insult more than a little... insulting, actually. I have refrained from 'personal' attacks, sir, but I'm not reluctant to signal digressions, highlight inconsistencies, expose duplicities, examine hypocrisy, or explore the underlying... regard the twitchy... I can see how some people might be insulted by that... but that's a personal problem not my own. >Too >many cryptic remarks. I'm _much_ plainer than you are remotely willing to concede, Mr. Smith. All to often _what_ is being said gets conveniently obscured in the discussion of _how_ it is being said, you'll notice. That's where the level of debate stands, generally. It gets hot when you flutter down close to the flame. >I don't have all day to sift through his rhetoric for meaning. Yes - I could understand how uncomfortable that might be. It's gets tender close to the bone, and I would scrape the bone as it suits me... would have my bones scraped, Sir. Prepare your knives. >Some call this poetic although it seems more like irrationality. One man's cheese is another man's rotten milk, Mr. Smith. I've internalized that even if you cannot. Moreover, it aspires to the soul of poetry, Sir, as we all must to one degree or another, or life would have no richness and meaning at all. >But it seems popular with some folk, so >let them have their Lehmbergian diatribes. Ah... the selfless generosity of the nascent avian, seemingly apparent until one detects the disrespect you have for "some folk" and the lip-curling disgust you have for their small appreciation of that which is "Lehmbergian." Rofl! >Anyway, I have not nor have ever been a CSICOPian...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:52:01 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:55:41 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Rimmer >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >><snip> >>>Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory >>>chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic >>>satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul >>>beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney >>>was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. >>>Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly >>>lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? >>Hello Alfred, >>Couldn't disagree with you more, to the point where I am >>wondering if we're reading the same posts. >We are... >>Firstly, you must remove John Rimmer from your over >>generalisation. >Mmmmm, no... it remains, Sir, that you might welcome a conflicted >mole into your midst as there are... years? ...of avian >behaviors to reflect upon here... and what has walked like a >duck and quacked like a duck must remain a duck very >plausibly... and so be considered a duck for a residual amount >of time remaining. But you're to be commended, of course, for >_your_ collegiality . >>The man has displayed a civility and decency >>that raises him to a new level as far as I'm concerned. >I'm not so quick to 'forgive'. I suspect a loss leading >collegiality, only, given that this new Roswell flavor, as >legitimate as it may be in the end, is a small trifecta for his >camp and he can afford, then, a gracious collegiality, now, to >maximize regressive gains to be made ...later. The attitude by >some folks here is a little like the attitude of a child >thankful that daddy stopped beating him abruptly because he had >maimed the child's finger (or was able to advantage himself as a >result). It remains that he has not played by the same rules, >almost to date, like any good CSICOPian. What could explain such >an abrupt turn-around but the calculation I have described >above? To be fair to Mr Lehmberg, I can appreciate the point that he is making. As a well-known 'pelicanist', 'skeptibunker', 'klasskurtzian' and perhaps even a 'post-pelicanist', it might seem suspicious that I suddenly turn up on UpDates apparently giving some credence to an explanation for Roswell which, although it will probably be derided by the above mentioned enemies of ufology, still actually presents a non-ETH explanation for the case. And more surprisingly, I even get Jerry Clark supporting me, and Stuart Miller accusing me of civility and decency! My approach to this does indeed seem a prima-facie case of 'loss-leading', in that I support one unlikely explanation of Roswell in order to discredit a - to me - unacceptable (i.e. ETH) explanation for the case. All I can say in my defence is that I have not yet read Nick Redfern's book, and all I know of the matter is the interview in Stuart's newsletter, and it presents an intriguing and superficially plausible argument. And of course, we live in a period where many people are prepared to believe almost anything to the detriment of the US Government, both the present one and any preceding ones! Of course, on seeing Mr Redfern's evidence in full, I may decide that it is not as plausible as I first thought, although I readily admit that it is most unlikely even if the Redfern explanation is later discredited, that I will then swing to the ETH on the rebound! So I will say to Mr Lehmberg that I understand his suspicions as to my motives, but he is ascribing a Machiavellian cunning to me that, currently at least, I an innocent of. I find these claims and allegations about Roswell genuinely provocative and intriguing and I look forward to reading (and maybe, if warranted, contributing) to the debate.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:58:21 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:57:16 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:42:12 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:38 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- >>level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- >>related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue >>leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly >>contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on >>pp. 191-3 of his classic book, the veritable Bible of >>critically- sifted Roswell investigative data (2001). It may >>interest some of you to know that the TOP SECRET Roswell policy >>response also contradicts Redfern's scenario in every respect, >>and in fact would be be rendered absurd by his scenario. >Can you please tell us all exactly what this policy was and what
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:23 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:02:05 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Hall >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:25:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Hi, Gildas, >>>In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees >>>that Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a >>>way to break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to >>>go beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that >>>(a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET event >>I am still waiting for solid arguments to reach such a >>conclusion. >>And I see many strong arguments to the contrary. >Good. I think a vigorous discussion in light of these new >developments will be good for everybody and help clarify the >relative strengths and weaknesses of the various Roswell >interpretations. I look forward to reading what you have to say. <snip> >Jerry Clark I am following this thread with great interest, but cannot afford the book so am listening to what others have to say. So far I have only three observatuiins to make: (1) Nick Redfern (whether you agree with him or not) is being very responsive and supplying calm, rational answers to all questions or comments. That is much to be admired and respected. (2) If ever there was an issue in ufology that could be definitively settled, beyond question it is whether or not the AA film shows a victim of progeria. Clearly it does not. A simple Google search using the one word 'progeria' turns up ample photos and other evidence to disprove that beyond question. On the other hand, to my way of thinking the AA film has no clear or proven connection to the Roswell crash in the first place, and remains very dubious and suspect as possible (or even likely) disinformation baloney. It could be absolutely 'real' (i.e., valid film) of something significant that has no bearing whatsoever on Roswell. (3) There is absolutely no grounds for a rush to judgment about whether Nick has found the ultimate explanation of Roswell. If he has, he deserves extraordinary recognition of some kind. But it remains to be seen how adequately his hypothesis explains the salient features of the Roswell case. Having talked face to face with most of the credible Roswell witnesses, I am yet to hear Nick address the salient features of (a) the unusually strong and damage-resistant metal, or (b) the size and spread of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 The Moon Illusion An Unsolved Mystery From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:47:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:12:31 -0400 Subject: The Moon Illusion An Unsolved Mystery Here we go, and from a source with some memory attached- http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/3d/moonillu.htm The Moon Illusion, An Unsolved Mystery. by Donald E. Simanek Disclaimer. The following review of this long-standing problem is not a research paper. The author is not trained in psychology or cognitive science. Consider it a semi-critical review of the common competing hypotheses about the moon illusion, and some experiments relevant to that problem. Consider it merely an opinion piece if you wish. What is the moon illusion? The so-called "moon illusion" or "moon effect" has perplexed people since earliest historical times, at least as early as the 7th century BCE. It is described in early Greek and Chinese writings. Aristotle mentions it in 350 BCE. The moon seems larger in angular size when it is near the horizon than when it is high in the sky. Some people judge it to be as much as twice as large, but the average estimate is 50% to 75% larger. It's not a small effect. The Sun displays the same illusion, but viewing the Sun directly with the eye is hazardous without proper precautions, so let's leave that out of this discussion. The same illusion is observed with any extended object in the sky, such as a constellation. What it's not. We know that this phenomenon is not a physical or atmospheric effect, as may be easily demonstrated by photographing the moon in the sky at various elevations and comparing its size on the negatives. The moon's angular size is nearly constant as it moves across the sky, the moon subtending about 0.5 degree in the sky. One may also verify this with sighting instruments. The moon does vary in angular size due to the eccentricity of its orbit. When the moon is closest to earth its angular size is about 11% larger than when it is most distant. The moon illusion describes the variation of apparent size during a much shorter time period of a few hours between its maximum elevation in the sky and its rising and setting. Another real physical effect causes the angular size of the moon's image on the retina to be about 2% smaller when the moon is near the horizon, compared to its size near the zenith. This is due to the fact that the moon is one earth radius farther away when observed on the horizon. This size change from zenith to horizon is much smaller, and in the opposite sense to the moon illusion. A change of such a small amount is not large enough to be noticed with our unaided visual system. Some people suppose the moon illusion to be due to atmospheric refraction. Refraction effects can be measured with instruments or cameras, and we find that refraction actually makes the moon's disk subtend a smaller angle in the sky than it would have if the atmosphere were not present. These refraction effects make the moon's apparent horizontal angular diameter still smaller (by about 1.7 percent) when the moon is near the horizon! These physical effects can be confirmed with telescopes and cameras. The moon's vertical angular diameter at the horizon is even smaller, causing the moon to appear "flattened." At the horizon the light must pass through a greater distance in our atmosphere than when the moon is higher in the sky. This size change is also opposite (and much smaller than) the psychological moon illusion! The reason that the atmosphere makes the moon's disk appear smaller is interesting in itself. Consider looking at a star directly overhead. The ray from this star takes the path AO to the observer at O. It passes through the atmosphere without refraction, along the radial line AC. Another star at lower elevation sends light along the line DF. This light is continuously refracted along the curved line FO, its path bending toward the radial line BC, finally reaching the observer at O. But the observer judges the direction of this ray to be along the line OE, which makes a smaller angle with AO than does the line DF. Therefore the angular separation of the stars seems smaller than it would be if the atmosphere were not present. This diagram is exaggerated. In the case of the moon, the angular separation of the edges of the moon is much smaller (about half a degree), but the same principle applies. Astronomers understand these atmospheric refraction effects quite well, and must precisely account for them as they interpret data from telescopes aimed at various elevations in the sky. Inadequate proposed explanations. To return to the moon illusion, many armchair speculators have proposed explanations for it. Some of these explanations, long ago discredited, still appear in textbooks. Many of these invoke visual or cognitive mechanisms that do have some relevance to the moon illusion. Some of these mechanisms modify the moon illusion, making it stronger and weaker, but are not in themselves sufficient to account for the full and strong moon illusion that most people experience. Note: Some people report that they do not experience the moon illusion at all. The literature on the illusion is largely silent on the reasons for this fact. Explanations of illusions must be taken with appropriate skepticism. Many are of the nature of "plausible hypotheses." Most are not (as yet) such that they can be independently verified in terms of physical processes in the brain. Also, we know that our visual perceptions arise because our brain synthesizes multiple cues. Our brain weighs these cues; some dominate in certain conditions, while others are "weaker" and are ignored. But the weightings shift in strength according to the nature of the stimuli. Many classic visual illusions arise from conflicting sensory cues of nearly equal "strength". By controlled experiments, we may often rule out some of the inadequate hypotheses about particular illusions. But when one devises a test for one specific illusion hypothesis, it's difficult to avoid introducing some other type of illusion into the procedure. Let's consider some of the proposed hypotheses about the moon illusion. Each will be presented, followed by evidence and arguments for and against it. A Ponzo illusion. Illusion of shape. The two figures are exactly the same size, yet many people judge the upper one to be smaller. But not all persons do. This illusion illustrates how our judgment of shape and size of an object can be influenced by the shapes and sizes of other objects nearby in the field of view. Illusions of shape are well known, as in the above example. Multiple cues in the field of vision can modify our judgments of shape, size, alignment, and even straightness of straight lines. Some claim the moon illusion is nothing more than this. One particular version of this explanation invokes the Ponzo illusion. I wouldn't even consider this worthy of mention here, but for the fact that is still commonly seen in popular books on this subject. The Ponzo illusion. The two circles are the same angular diameter. Yet many people judge the right one to be smaller. The two converging straight lines nearby influence our judgment. If the lines are replaced with solid black areas, the illusion remains. When we view a drawing of, say, a straight railway track receding to the horizon in the distance, we interpret it as stretching from near to far even though it is only a pattern of radial lines drawn on a flat paper at constant distance from our eyes. This is relevant here because our experience with railway tracks and roadways has conditioned us to so interpret these patterns in this way. This is the mental map or model against which we interpret other things. We can draw two small identical figures on such a drawing, say a couple of plain (featureless) disks of equal size, the one placed where the tracks are well-separated on the paper (interpreted as near) and the other placed where the tracks converge to the vanishing point on the horizon (interpreted as far). The brain tells us that the disk where the tracks are narrow is the larger disk. Some writers liken this to the Ponzo illusion, but it is more than that. The figure shows convergent lines that we imagine as parallel lines converging to a common "vanishing point" on the horizon. The two black bars are the same angular size, but we think that the one labeled B is farther away, and therefore many people think it is "larger". Not all persons perceive this size difference, but very few think A is larger. Remove the convergent lines, and nearly everyone judges the bars to be equal length. In my opinion this illusion is not sufficient in magnitude to account for the moon illusion, only to modify it (and confound attempts to experimentally study the moon illusion). But consideration of such illusions does remind us that other objects in the local field of view may affect judgments of size and shape. By "local" I mean "visually contiguous or adjacent". Contextual effects; reference cues in the field of vision. When we judge the size of an object near the horizon our perception is influenced by familiar terrestrial objects in the field of view (trees, houses, roads). We know from everyday experience that many of the recognizable things we see in the distance are quite far away. But when our gaze is upwards, we have no reference cues for distance, and judge things near the zenith to be closer than those on the horizon. Ibn Alhazan proposed this explanation for the moon illusion around 1000 CE. Some experiments seem to support this explanation. After-images of bright objects may be produced on the retina. Their apparent size depends upon where you look, being smaller when you look at a blank wall, or up into the sky, but larger when there are comparison objects in your visual field. When one looks at the moon near the horizon through a hole in a piece of paper held some distance in front of the eye the moon appears smaller. The "horizon effect" largely disappears. One interpretation of this experiment is that the paper tube obscures any familiar reference objects. It seems to show that the moon illusion is due to direct comparison with reference objects of known size. Another interpretation is that the paper tube provides a visually dominating reference object already judged to be "near". Some experiments cast doubt that these explanations are complete. The moon illusion persists even when viewed on a dark night on a featureless plain, on the ocean, and even by airline pilots flying high above clouds. So reference objects of known size aren't the only basis for the illusion. The moon illusion disappears (for most people) when they bend down and look at the moon between their legs. [Is it merely coincidence that this is the position used for "mooning"? Disregard that.] Or, if so inclined, one can view the moon by hanging from one's heels! At least two hypotheses have been proposed to account for this. (1) Familiar objects in the field of view may become useless as distance references because of their unfamiliar appearance when viewed upside- down. (2) The illusion may have something to do with our inner-ear's balance mechanism that tells us whether the head is upright or upside- down. The method of viewing the moon through a hole in a piece of paper may also be used to view other objects. They too, appear smaller when viewed through the hole. Is our brain using the paper and the hole as a strongly dominant reference object? The nearby reference object is the paper; distant reference objects are hidden. Hypotheses with some merit. Some proposed explanations clearly have merit and are based on experimentally verified visual phenomena. But they also have "problems" that prevent any one of them being pronounced the "final answer". A memory map. Perceptions are influenced by our past experience. One model of visual perception postulates that when we perceive a new and unfamiliar phenomenon our brain interprets it by comparing it to a mental map or model of our memory of previous sensory experiences. Of course, this represents just one of the cues that the brain must sort out, weighing it against other cues. Conflict between sensory cues is the basis of many common visual illusions. When we observe the horizon moon and think, "My, that moon seems unusually large," we are comparing it to past experience of moons seen higher in the sky. The moon illusion, seen "in the wild" always involves a comparison of the horizon moon being seen now with a memory of an overhead moon seen earlier, or vice versa. There's about six hours between the horizon moon and the overhead moon (more or less, depending on the tilt of the moon's orbital plane and the season). Too often discussions bury this important point in a lot of moonshine. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that we are comparing our immediate perception of the moon with all of our memories of moons seen in the past, under a variety of conditions. We have only one moon, and cannot observe it in two positions at the same time. Most of the studies done under controlled conditions ask human subjects to compare sizes of two objects seen simultaneously. And yet these studies clearly show that the illusion of size difference between overhead objects and objects on a level with the head is still present. This alone does not discredit the mental map idea, but does show that if such a map, cognitive mechanism, or mental model is involved it does not require long- term memory. But it also is perceived even without simultaneously present comparison objects. The distinction between these two manifestations of the moon illusion is often blurred in the literature. The sky-dome model of the moon illusion, from the 1872 "Buch der Erfindungen" (book of inventions) vol. 2, p.239. If there's a mental map or model, it need not be assumed to be located in a particular place in the brain. Very likely it is an interactive linking of specific visual functions distributed over various locations in the physical brain. The mental sky-dome model. This commonly seen explanation postulates that we have in our minds a mental map or model of the shape of the sky. We use this model as a real-time reference surface for objects too distant for stereoscopic distance cues, even when there are no other cues in the visual field to serve as distance benchmarks. This mental model does not picture the sky in the shape of a hemisphere, but is more like a relatively shallow, inverted soup-bowl. When we view something on the horizon we perceive that it's located on a portion of the sky farther away than an object of the same real angular size at the zenith. This figure shows the comparison between a spherical sky dome and the shallow apparent sky bowl. When an object of constant size is seen near the horizon at A, and then near the zenith at B, we judge that both are "on" the apparent sky bowl, and therefore the object seems to be at A' and B', with A' being farther away than B', and is therefore judged to be larger. This diagram is the one usually seen in books that champion this hypothesis. But the diagram can be misleading. The hemispherical sky- dome in the picture is quite irrelevant, and ought to be omitted, for it falsely suggests a mental process of "projecting" the moon onto that dome. That's not a necessary part of the process. The important point of the argument is that our judgment starts with the stimulus of the retinal image of the moon, which is very nearly the same size for horizon moons or overhead moons. Stated in an equivalent way: The moon has nearly the same actual (physical) angular size wherever it is in the sky. So we mentally assume that an object of this retinal size lies on the perceptual sky dome. That dome is perceived as more distant at the horizon than overhead. This is the same as saying, "What is our judgment of actual size of two things at different perceived distances, even though they have the same angular size?" The answer is that the one assumed nearer is judged to be smaller. This conclusion is consistent with the mental judgment that the horizon moon is farther from us. This process supposedly operates even (especially) in the absence of any other visual cues. But the process is confused when we have our heads in an unusual position. This may be the result of our knowledge of the orientation of our head, from visual cues, and perhaps from information from the balance- sensing mechanisms of our inner ear. When there are competing sensory cues, our judgment of angular size can be altered by them, which may account for the confusing results of experiments designed to show that visual cues are the sole reason for the moon effect. Any hypothesis that depends on a mental model of the sky requires that we have some way to know, at least approximately, which direction is "up". The illusion is "anchored" on our judgment of "up" and "down". What's wrong with the sky-dome model as an explanation of the moon illusion? One reader of the earlier version of this document mistakenly assumed I was promoting and defending the sky-dome model as an explanation of the moon illusion. That was not my intent at all, so I must increase the wordiness of this document by pointing out the obvious objection. Let me be very clear. The evidence for the illusion of the sky an inverted bowl is, in my view, abundant and undeniable, and must be dealt with if we are ever to understand the moon illusion. However, to use it as an explanation of the moon illusion is specious. Consider an equally plausible argument using the sky-dome. We know that the full moon displays constancy of appearance (surface features) no matter where it is in the sky. It is the same moon wherever we see it. Few persons, when asked, would claim that the moon actually changes its physical size like a deflating balloon as it moves up in the sky. We adults agree that the moon has size constancy (children may not have formed such a conclusion). If we observe the moon in a starry sky, most persons say that the apparent distance of moon and surrounding stars is the same. There's no visual clue (such as parallax) to lead us to think otherwise. Allof these "sky objects" are judge to be on this flattened "sky dome." If that is so, then the overhead moon should be judged larger in angular size, since it is on a portion of the sky that we judge is nearer to us. Comparing these two hypotheses with contradictory conclusions leads us to see the inadequacy of both of them, and the emptiness of this sort of argument. It forces us to examine just what we mean by "distance", "size", and "angular size". We will return to this point later. This confusion does not invalidate the perception of a flattened sky dome, but does reveal the dangers in trying to use one illusion (the sky dome) to explain another (the moon illusion). I hate to suggest this, but many of the arguments about moon and sky illusions are similarly flawed, and seem only to be playing verbal games with the reader. They "sound good" but fall apart on close examination. The flattened sky-dome hypothesis examined. So why should we have this shallow-bowl model of the sky? Or, to put the question another way, why do we have a cognitive processing mechanism (however complex) that, in effect, gives us a perception of the sky distorted to conform to such a model? Two suggestions have been made. (1) The mechanism is hard-wired into our brains from birth. (2) The mechanism is built up through experience, by daylight sensory experiences, from a host of visual cues in everyday life. Studies of children from age 4 to adult suggest that the moon illusion is present in children, and is stronger than it is in adults. It decreases in strength with age. [Liebowitz, H. and Hartman, T. "Magnitude of the Moon illusion as a Function of the Age of the Observer." Science, 130, 569-570.] This study was done indoors in a large darkened room (no other visual cues) with artificial moons at distances of 85 feet. Studies with children can be confusing, for a child will often reach out to touch a distant object, like the moon on the horizon. Children haven't yet developed the same mental model of visual space that adults have. This study suggests that visual experience as one matures to adulthood modifies the illusion by improving our judgment of horizontal distances, thereby decreasing the illusion. This casts doubt on any explanations that assume that the moon illusion is a result of visual experience and suggests that the illusion itself may be innate and present at birth. The hard-wired hypothesis supposes that natural selection has shaped those brain mechanisms that process and interpret sensory data, devoting more resources to those things that are important to survival. This results in brain resources being biased toward things seen in front of us, fewer resources to things overhead. Similar imbalance of perception details are present in animals. Running great risk of over-simplifying a complex problem, we might say that things seen overhead appear smaller in angular size because our brain never evolved adequate resources to interpret data we judge to be "overhead". That data was not important to our species' survival. Our visual space allocates less detail and poorer judgment of relative distances for objects at large elevations up, or down. Anisotropy of visual space. Luneberg (1947) proposed a theory of vision that attempted to relate physical space with virtual (perceptual) space. He concluded that virtual space is non-Euclidean, that it is a Riemannian space of negative curvature: a hyperbolic space. Visual space does not have the same metric properties in all directions. (This idea is mentioned here for completeness, not to claim that Luneberg developed the idea fully and successfully, nor that he applied it to the moon illusion.) This hypothesis is most helpful in understanding the fact that all lines of a set of physically parallel lines are also perceived as straight. Certainly they are not rendered straight on our retinas, and their curvature on the retina changes in complicated ways as we move our eyes right/left and up/down. Yet at any instant, they seem perceptually straight. Our brain is continually recalculating the data from the retinal image, to give a perception of straightness. Is our cognitive apparatus biased to render "straightness", or is this merely a by-product of cognitive processes that "correct" the "warped" retinal image to resolve visual contradictions when our eyes scan the real visual world? We live in a modern world with many straight and parallel lines: streets, walls, railroad tracks, etc. Yet the mechanism for dealing with the visual world evolved to its present form long before our ancestors ever experienced such geometric regularities. Clearly this process has more fundamental importance to our vision than rendering straight lines "correctly". I am not arguing that the curved retina is the reason for the anisotropy of visual space. I'm simply pointing out that the brain has mechanisms for dealing with the retinal shape, and the dynamically changing retinal image (as the eyes scan a scene), to produce a stable, and reasonably consistent geometry of visual space. This is what psychologicsts call "perceptual space". The larger visual space. Spherical perspective of parallel lines perceived from wide- ranging sweeping of the eyes over more than a whole hemisphere. This is similar to a fish-eye lens photograph. Z (zenith), N (nadir), V (left and right vanishing points). The insets show how parallel lines are rectified as straight in the smaller visual field. Only when we scan our eyes around this geometric world, consciously trying to get the "bigger picture", do we become aware how our eye/ brain mechanism handles this problem. Try this experiment. Look at a long straight wall. The wall seems to have straight and parallel lines when our line of sight is perpendicular to the wall. But when looking parallel to the wall, those same lines appear to be straight lines converging to a "vanishing point" on the horizon. Shifting our gaze from one end of the wall to the other we integrate all of these views and finally perceive that those parallel lines appear as curved lines diverging from a point at the horizon, becoming nearly parallel, then converging to a point at the other horizon. This is the geometric world of our wider visual field, one of curved lines, a "Remannian" space. But when we fix our gaze in one direction, our brain straightens out those curves, producing a result like the "Euclidean" space of an artist's strict perspective rendering. This process does not, however, consistently "correct" angles between lines. Right angles in a perspective drawing are usually not right angles on the paper or canvass. Nor are angles correctly perceived by the eye when the plane of the angle is tilted with respect to our line of sight. Once we recognize that visual space may not be anisotropic, and that it is a somewhat consistent distortion of real space, we have a new way of thinking about the moon illusion and related sky illusions. Anyone can appreciate the character of this anisotropy by looking at the daylight cloud-covered sky in relatively flat terrain. Physically the cloud canopy is nearly a flat plane, as is the earth under our feet, because the radius of their curvature is so large compared the distance to the visual horizon. Think of observing the sky from a ship in the middle of an ocean. The ocean does appear nearly flat, but the cloud cover appears as an inverted shallow bowl. This shape can be appreciated even better if the observer slowly moves his eyes to scan around the horizon and up from horizon to zenith, with conscious intent to get a feeling for the shape of things in this larger visual space. Some people even perceive that the ocean curves somewhat upward toward the distant horizon just as the cloud cover curves downward. In any case, most people judge the sky at the horizon to be the same distance as the horizon. How does this impression square with the situation in real (physical) space? The physical distance to the most distant object one can see on the horizon depends on the elevation of the observer's eye above the water. One can derive the formula for it, in terms of the earth's radius. For an eye elevation of six feet, the things we see on the horizon are actually about 3 miles away. Alto-cumulous clouds are about 2 to 3.5 miles overhead. So, physically, the distances are nearly the same, yet the overhead clouds seem much closer to most people than those near the horizon. This calculation may not seem quite fair, for we can see clouds that are physically well beyond the surface horizon, around 100 miles away, due to their height above the earth surface. But can any reader and observer honestly claim that the clouds at the horizon seem farther away than the water at the horizon? I've never found anyone who would make that claim? Since the clouds at the horizon are about 100 miles away, the physical dome of a cloud-covered sky is a very flattened bowl (or saucer), 100 miles in radius and only a few miles high. Yet when this calculation is done, even the most seasoned mathematician or physicist must admit "I don't see it that way!" Need we further belabor the point that the geometry of our visual space of such distant things is severely warped compared to physical space? We have a strong impression that the cloud cover "joins" the horizon. Can this simply be that there's absolutely no visual cue to suggest that they are at different distances? Our brain may be making the simplest reconciliation of the situation. Why does the cloud cover appear to curve downward at all? This is seen even when there are individual clouds with cues of shape, size, and shadowing. Beyond a certain distance, a distance set by other visual cues, our brain refuses to place objects at a greater apparent distance, especially if there are no local cues indicating objects between the horizon and the cloud cover. By "local" I mean, visually contiguous objects near the horizon line. Our cognitive mechanism seems to prioritize decisions, favoring reconciliation of "adjacent" cues at the expense of those displaced from one another by larger visual angles. These facts illustrate that when we are dealing with these great distances, our usual geometric logic about distances is essentially useless to describe what we perceive. Once this fact of perception is realized, one also realizes that many of the experiments and theories of the moon and sky illusions and many of the published papers on the subject of visual illusions are simply irrelevant our judgments of very distant objects. Why is visual space anisotropic? Specifically how does the anisotropy work? Why does the "metric" of this anisotropy shift in response to visual cues, such as objects at various distances in the field of view, and even on past visual experience? And why does some anisotropy remain even if nearly all visual distance cues are absent? Those are questions that need to be addressed. Little progress has been made in that direction. But we can't solve the moon and sky illusions until we deal with those questions. Space-filling The research clearly indicates that nearby objects in the field of view do influence our judgment of the distance and size of more distant objects. In a general way, it seems that Objects in the visual field that are contiguous to the distant objects have the greatest effect on size judgments. When there are many objects in the field of view for which we can readily and unambiguously assign sizes and distances, this can give a strong impression of greater distance for those objects "beyond" the others. When there are few contiguous objects and few strongly located nearer objects in the field of view, distant objects appear nearer. We tend to perceive an object with fewer distance cues to be "just beyond" the farthest object for which we have mentally assigned a concrete "distance". Easily recognized objects, and those for which distance cues are strong, are probably processed by the brain first, leaving more ambiguous objects for later processing. Of course the whole process is so rapid we think that the judgments are instantaneous. It's as if our visual space becomes "filled" with objects for which our brain can readily assign distances, leaving those with fewer (or ambiguous) distance cues to occupy the "more distant" space, located just beyond the more confidently located objects. Even within the visual space of relatively unambiguous distances and sizes, our brain has placed objects in this space by resolving visual conflicts and by using some visual cues to modify and reinforce other cues. Trehub's retinoid model. Arnold Trehub, in his book The Cognitive Brain (MIT Press, 1991) proposed a comprehensive theoretical model of cognition, postulating neuronal mechanisms and systems that are responsible for cognition. He hypothesizes a neuronal structure that acts as a dynamic buffer for processing information from the retina, which he calls a retinoid. This retinoid performs many functions, some of which determine how visual sensory information is interpreted, before it is passed on to higher levels of visual processing. The retinoid organizes and integrates visual information into a unified model of visual space. Trehub calls it a "visual scratch pad" that stores spatially organized information as short-term memory. One need not delve into the details of how this might work on the cellular level in order to recognize the importance of this general idea to the study of perception and to illusions of perception. The visual process begins with sensory data, primarily from the retina. The retinal images represent a crude map (in two dimensions) of the real space of luminous points. The cognitive processes synthesize this data, reconciling ambiguities, correcting for deficiencies of the eyes themselves and creating a final "veridical" image that we perceive as the space we are looking at. Past experience plays a role, when we observe familiar objects. For example, we see three faces of a cube, but our experience with cubes generates a veridical judgment that the cube has six faces, including the ones that produce no retinal sensation until we rotate the cube. Our brains have established sub- processing systems for cubes, spheres, trees, and other familiar objects, treating them as entire objects even when we see them only partially. The veridical image is in some ways better than the retinal images at any instant. Yet it can also have features that simply aren't an accurate representation of real space, as demonstrated by the many visual illusions studied by psychologists. Many such illusions have contradictory visual cues, and the brain does the best it can at reconciling those contradictions. This cognitive bias of veridical space depends upon our prior cognitive judgment of up and down. We have a sub-processing brain mechanism for the space surrounding us. But the data funneled into this system has already subconsciously been realigned at an earlier stage of cognitive processing that made a judgment about up and down. Various cues, including our vestibular balance mechanism tell us at all times how our head is oriented. Then the rest of the cognitive apparatus further interprets visual cues based on this judgment of "up". [The older "sky dome" hypothesis depends upon this up/down judgment also.] Tilt of the head can slightly alter this judgment, but if there are enough cues, it won't destroy the sky and moon illusions. However, hanging by one's heels or looking at the sky with head inverted greatly reduces the illusion for many people. But this orientation also confuses one's interpretation of many visual spatial relationships. It's worth noting that the quality of many visual judgments is much reduced when viewing the world from this unusual position, even when viewing a picture or photograph that is also inverted. Things don't seem quite right. The quality of cognitive processing is severely degraded. The moon illusion is consistent with what would be expected from evolutionary considerations. We have evolved cognitive processes that provide high quality visual information from nearby things, and things on our level that we can walk to and experience from various angles. These are all important to survival. Things seen high above, in the sky, or even those seen below, as when looking over the edge of a cliff, are less important. Therefore distance discrimination and detailed judgment of other visual properties of overhead objects is compromised. The size-distance paradox. Most people have a cognitive model that relates angular size to distance. This is called the "size-distance invariance law". When one observes two persons, one subtending a small angle, one a larger angle, one judges the person subtending the small angle to be more distant. This works for objects that we know or have already judged (from memory and other cues) to be "really" about the same size. As usually seen, the sky-dome model "explains" the moon illusion in this manner: The retina receives a certain size stimulus, the same angular size for horizon or overhead moons. The brain has a model of the sky that causes us to judge that the overhead moon is the nearer one. Therefore since the two moon images have the same retinal size (stimulus), we judge the overhead moon to have smaller actual size. As indicated earlier, this over-simplified "explanation" seems to me empty and misleading. Some who object to the "sky-dome" model in any of its variants point out that when subjects are asked which moon is larger, they answer "The horizon moon." When asked which moon is nearer, most will say "The horizon moon." This, critics say, contradicts the simple sky- dome explanation, and therefore invalidates it. They call this the "size-distance paradox". This objection, in my opinion, carries no weight. In these discussions we must distinguish three levels of sensory processing that play a role in the final judgment. The sensation itself. In this case, the diameter of the image on the retina, stimulating light receptors there. All commentators agree that the moon illusion does not occur on this level. The unconscious judgment of some "physical" property, such as brightness, angular size, color. This may be influenced by past experience, or by quirks of innate cognitive functioning, but is done without us consciously "thinking about the matter" or deliberately "analyzing" something. The reasoned consideration of the sensation, by questioning and by conscious analysis. Example: "Those two bars seem connected, but that can't be so, for it violates some laws of math or physics." On this level, judgments may be expected to be quite different for untrained and trained observers, and also different for those unschooled in math and physics compared to those who are. The moon illusion literature is largely silent on these possible differences of interpretation. Mixing these levels has confused many discussions of the moon effect. What is the meaning of 'size'? When dealing with physical measuring instruments such as cameras and telescopes, the relations between angular size, linear size and distance is a straightforward application of trigonometry. tan(angular size) =3D (linear size)/(distance) Or tan(a ) =3D S/D But visual judgments of linear size and distance are clearly confounded by visual illusion effects of various kinds. So "apparent linear size" and "apparent distance" were introduced, and the size- distance-invariance hypothesis was written: tan(angular size) =3D (apparent linear size)/(apparent distance) Or tan(a ) =3D S'/D' On this view, if distance cues predominate, altering D to D', then the apparent size S' will be "computed" by the brain as necessary to interpret the angular size A of the image on the retina. But if size cues predominate (as when you are looking at a person whose size is familiar from long experience), the apparent distance D' will be computed by the brain. This hypothesis has an underlying assumption. That the angular size of importance is simply the physical size of the retinal image, the visual stimulus. But is it possible that perceived angular size is also subject to illusory effects? If so we should write: tan(a ' ) =3D S'/D' This view, and this equation, were first proposed by Don McCready [1965]. He developed this more fully in his [1985] paper, and applied it to the moon illusion [1986]. His website provides a very thorough presentation of these ideas. This raises the question: What are we doing when we judge the "size" or "distance" of something (like the moon) for which we've had no experience close-up, and whose physical linear size and distance are too large to perceptually comprehend anyway? When we say a moon is "larger", are we talking about angular size or linear size? Some argue that the basic moon illusion is one of angular size. Certainly all the experiments that ask subjects to compare the moon's image (or a simulated moon) with a physical object (or a simulated physical object) are asking for a comparison of perceived angular size. Also, the interpretation of experimental studies may be confounded by ambiguity of the meaning of the word "size", as understood by the subjects and by the experimenters. Even if the experimenter carefully explains to naive subjects the difference between angular size and linear size, and between "real" size and "perceived size", a subject may be incapable of making those distinctions when describing an observed object. I will not belabor the three size equations given above, for they may not even be relevant to the question of the moon illusion. The moon illusion operates at real distances essentially infinite, and real sizes beyond direct apprehension. The only relevant variables are angular size, real and apparent. However we must admit that experimental studies of illusions seen in nearby space may help us understand the cognitive mechanisms that may also apply to the moon illusion. Some studies have asked subjects "which moon seems nearer", which seems an unfair question, but still one cannot deny that we have mental processes that produce at least an approximate subconscious judgment of "near and far" for things in the sky, and this is certainly relevant to the sky illusions. The cognitive judgment of apparent angular size is made at a very early level of cognitive processing, without "thinking about it" consciously (deliberately). When asked which moon is larger, we then must consciously process this question (without being consciously aware of our previous unconscious determination of its apparent angular size). Suppose an observer has subconsciously determined that the horizon moon has larger angular size than the zenith moon. This is the "perceived" angular size, A'. When asked which moon is nearer, the observer may consciously reason that the horizon moon must therefore be nearer. Never in this process is this observer aware of the unconscious process by which his brain already concluded that the horizon moon had larger angular size. No contradiction or paradox is present here, for these two levels of mental processing are not simultaneous. The contradiction comes only when we think about what we said. Most visual illusions contain similar judgment contradictions. When the Penrose impossible tribar is seen, a subject may judge that the right side is more distant than the left, based on the way they connect at the top vertex. But then, looking at the constant angular width of the lower horizontal bar, the subject is forced to conclude that the two bottom corners are the same distance away. Contradiction. Yet each individual judgment seems "right" and is based on habitual visual associations of everyday experience. This is what makes illusions tantalizing. Observers schooled in physics and math, physicists, astronomers, and amateur sky-gazers, have learned somewhat different conscious models. When asked "Which moon is nearer" they may respond "That's an unfair question; it's still the same moon, and in both cases the distance and size are too great to make a distance judgment." If a follow-up question is asked, "Which one seems nearer?" the answer is often "Well, you can't trust your eyes in such matters." Many scientists have learned (by their mistakes) not to trust their eyes in certain kinds of informal observations. As Helmholtz said, "I would never believe anything solely on the evidence of my eyes." Unlike Helmholtz, most physical scientists do not inquire into the reasons behind visual deceptions, they simply try to stick to observations and instruments that can be shown to produce reliable and observer- independent results. Oculomotor micropsia and macropsia Don McCready's web documents emphasize the importance of angular size illusions. He also proposes an explanation of the moon illusion based on angular size illusions due to oculomotor micropsia, an illusion that accompanies the accommodation of the eye lens and the convergence of the two eyes. Oculomotor micropsia has been known since it was discovered by Charles Wheatstone (1852), and has been amply demonstrated experimentally for nearby objects, those for which convergence and accommodation play a dominant role in perception of distance. McCready's detailed website document describes this effect quite well. Briefly oculomotor micropsia is this: Normally, if there's only one object, or a dominant object, in the field of view, our eyes try to converge and accommodate to its distance. The muscles that control convergence and accommodation send signals to our brain, which are important distance cues. But when one's eyes converge and accommodate on a distance nearer than that of the object, that object appears to subtend a smaller angle than if one's eyes were converged and accommodated upon it. Micropsia means "appearing small", and here refers to the visual angle subtended by an object. The reverse effect, macropsia, occurs when the eyes converge or accommodate at a distance greater than the object being judged. Why would the eyes converge or accommodate at distances different than the object of interest in the field of view? Several reasons. A very large number of nearby objects spread over the field of view may bias the brain towards convergence at their distance. For most people, the functions of convergence (aiming the eyes to a common point) and accommodation (focus setting of the eye's lenses) are "locked together" so if one converges to nearby objects, the accommodation adjusts to that distance also, and vice-versa. Proponents of this hypothesis as explanation of the moon illusion argue that if there are a number of distant objects in the field of view, as there would be when observing the rising or setting full moon, the brain adjusts accommodation and convergence to them. But when viewing the full moon directly overhead, in a clear sky, there are no other distance cues, and the eye adjusts to its resting focus a distance of 1 or 2 meters. This makes the perceived angular size of the overhead moon seem smaller. Further support of this hypothesis is the effect of dark surroundings, which bias the eyes to adjust to the dark focus distance of about 1 meter. But, these micropsia and macropsia illusions cause angular size differences of less than 10%, nowhere near large enough to account for the moon illusion seen by most persons. Also, if accommodation were involved in the moon illusion, you'd think that elderly people who have lost nearly all accommodation should not perceive the illusion. Yet they do. Persons with eye lens implants have no accommodation, and they do perceive the moon illusion. Covering one eye removes convergence from consideration, but that doesn't make the moon illusion go away. As usual in these matters it's not so simple. Experiments have shown that even when one eye is covered, or blind, the muscles and the eye lens still accommodate to the distance perceived by visual information supplied by the other eye. Also when the eye lens muscle is paralyzed in both eyes by use of atropine drops, micropsia still occurs. It seems that micropsia and macropsia are not the result of physical changes in the eyes, but are caused by processes occurring in the brain, the same processes that control the muscles of the eyes and the ciliary body that adjusts the focus of the eye lens. The planetarium sky. Does the same thing happen in a planetarium? No! This is why the planetarium is a poor simulation of what we see in the night sky. All real-sky effects are beyond the range where our stereoscopic vision (due to eye convergence) works (about 50 to 100 feet), so our eyes can't triangulate objects in the sky. The planetarium, with, say a 50 foot diameter dome, has all star images just within the range of stereoscopic vision, and this fact dominates our judgment, minimizing other psychological effects. Also, as we walk into a planetarium we have a visual and rather direct feeling for its size that persists even after the lights are turned off. Have you noticed that the moon, projected onto a planetarium dome with exactly the correct angular size, seems the same apparent size wherever it is located on the dome, and therefore appears "too small" when on the horizon, compared to our memory of the setting or rising moon in the real sky? I've been informed (Jan 2000) that some researchers claim that the threshold for detecting depth due to retinal disparity is 1 arc second, so persons with normal vision can detect distance differences between the moon and objects up to at least 100 meters away. Such experiments are done under "ideal conditions" and usually involve judging whether two points of light are equally far away. My comments about the planetarium sky do not depend on the correctness of this figure, since the planetarium dome is clearly well within the range of stereoscopic vision, whichever figure you accept for the maximum distance for stereo vision. The hypothesis of the importance of eye-convergence (stereoscopic vision) in the moon illusion can be tested. Suppose we suppress stereoscopic cues in the planetarium by covering one eye. Experiments related to the moon illusion, especially those where nearby objects (nearer than about 50 feet) are in the field of view, should also be done with one- eyed viewing to suppress stereoscopic cues. This has not always been recognized as an important visual cue in these experiments. However, I think they play little role in the moon illusion itself, or any related illusion related to objects beyond the range of stereoscopic vision, except to establish the distance of nearby reference objects in the field of vision. This illustrates why experimental psychology can be every bit as difficult as physics. As McCready says (August 1999): "Clearly, no theory has been fully accepted by the experts yet." What's the bottom line? In summary, it seems to me that: The class of size illusions that includes the moon illusion affect primarily objects at distances beyond those where stereoscopic and other strong distance cues are operative. We therefore should not expect that the size-distance invariance laws for near objects are even relevant to the moon illusion. The sky illusion (sky-dome as a shallow inverted bowl) should not be ignored, for it is nearly universally observed. Both it and the moon illusion may arise from the same cause. Understanding the sky illusion may be the key to understanding the moon illusion, but to merely invoke the sky illusion as the cause of the moon illusion evades the fundamental issues, and is empty of content. The sky illusion represents a warping of visual space for objects so distant that other everyday cues to distance and size are inoperative. The sky illusion depends greatly on one important cue: our sense of what direction is up. Cognitive processing of visual space may be linked to our knowledge of the tilt of the head, from visual cues relating to up/down and the vestibular balance mechanism in the inner ear. Therefore we know the position of our head and eyes relative to "up" and "down". However, some studies show that head tilt alone plays only a small role in angular size determination of isolated objects in an indoor laboratory environment, in the absence of other stimuli. Other objects seen in the visual field while viewing the moon can further modify our judgment of distance and size, confusing some of the experiments that have been done. Spatial relations that are familiar, unambiguous, and easily "computed" are processed promptly, and perceived objects are mentally assigned sizes, distances and locations in visual space. Ambiguous objects, and those with no strong distance cues are processed after the near visual space has been "filled" and are assigned to distances just beyond the "filled" space, if that can be done without cognitive conflict. Trehub postulates that we are born with a subconscious cognitive processing mechanism that is innate. It is a result of evolutionary necessity for devoting more visual processing resources to nearby space, and space at eye level, but fewer resources to things seen at higher elevation. Therefore the angular size of objects at eye level is perceived as greater than the angular size of the same objects seen when looking upward. This model does not rule out the possibility that such perceptions can be modified through experience and by particular sets of visual cues. Such cognitive models may serve as a guideline for experimental investigations, but direct experimental confirmation of all of a model's details is necessary before it can be considered a physically and biologically correct explanation. We have many descriptive models of cognition that certainly are better than nothing, but do not adequately and fully represent what goes on in the brain. Their power to correctly predict how we perceive particular new situations is not impressive. These are very much like a flow chart of a computer program, which doesn't give us a clue about what goes on at the bit and byte level when the program is run on a particular computer. The final word has not yet been written on this subject. =97 Donald Simanek AN INCOMPLETE BIBLIOGRAPHY The literature on the moon illusion is vast, indicating an obsession with the problem that borders on lunacy. I'm in no position to compile a complete and definitive bibliography. I do not have easy access to the relevant journals, especially the older ones. Fortunately Hershenson's book includes many literature references, as do the web sites listed here. I have not consulted all of these. Some were recommended by others. I welcome suggestions for making this bibliography more useful. In this document I have not attempted to give a complete history of ideas about the moon illusion, nor have I tried to indicate in every case who first proposed a hypothesis or who did the experimental studies, or when, for I had no intention to write a definitive history of the subject. Besides, it's often impossible to know who first had a particular idea, as distinct from who was first to publish it. Bart Borghuis' web document may be consulted for such details, and the anthology by Herschenson [1989] contains detailed review and bibliography of the literature of the subject. Corum, M. C. "On the Moon Illusion" The Rand Corporation, June 1976. Frisby, John. Seeing=97Illusion, Brain and Mind. ~1980's. Gregory, R. L., et. al. "Changes in Size and Shape of Visual After- Images Observed in Complete Darkness During Changes of Position in Space." Quart. J. Exp. Psychol. 11:54-55. (1959) Herschenson, M. (Ed.) The Moon Illusion. L. Earlbaum Associates, Publishers. Hillsdale, NJ, 1989, pp 193-234. Jewell, John G. "The moon illusion: untangling the size-distance paradox through stereoptic viewing." Bucknell University Master of Science Thesis, May, 1994. Kaufman, Lloyd. Sight and mind, an introduction to visual perception. Oxford University Press, 1974. Kaufman, L. and Rock, I. "The Moon Illusion: I," Science, 1962, 136, p. 953-961. Kaufman, L. and Rock, I. "The Moon Illusion: II," Science, 1962, 136, p. 1023-1031. Kaufman, L. and Rock, I. "The Moon Illusion." Scientific American, July 1962, 207(1) Cover and p. 120-130. Kaufman, L. and Kaufman, J. "Explaining the Moon illusion." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 97, 1, Jan 4, 2000, pp 500-504. Liebowitz, H. and Hartman, T. "Magnitude of the Moon illusion as a Function of the Age of the Observer." Science, 130,, 569-570. Luckiesh, M. Visual Illusions, their Causes, Characteristics and Applications. 1922, Dover 1965. Luneberg, R. K. Mathematical Analysis of Binocular Vision, Princeton, New Jersey. Princeton University Press, 1947. McCready, D. [1965] Size-distance perception and accommodation- convergence micropsia: A critique. Vision Research, 5, 189-206. McCready, D. [1985] On size, distance and visual angle perception. Perception & Psychophysics, 37, 323-334. McCready, D. [1986] Moon illusions redescribed. Perception & Psychophysics, 39, 64-72. Minnaert, M. The Nature of Light and Color in the Open Air. Dover, 1954. Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 27, p. 205. (1986) Rock, I. Perception Scientific American Library. Ross, Helen E. & Plug, Cornelis. The mystery of the moon illusion: Exploring size perception. Oxford University Press, 2002. Suzuki, Kotaro. "Moon illusion simulated in complete darkness: Planetarium experiment reexamined." Perception & Psychophysics, 49, 4 (1991) p.349-354. Taylor, F. V. "Change in Size of the After-Image Induced in Total Darkness." J. Exp. Psychol. 29:75-80. (1941) Trehub, A. The Cognitive Brain. MIT Press, 1991. Chapter 14, p. 342-347. Walker, B. "The Moon Illusion: A Review," Parts 1 and 2. Optical Spectra, January, February, 1978. Wenning, Carl J. The Planetarian, Vol. 14, #4 (December 1985). Web copy. SOME INTERNET SITES Listing these sites here does not constitute endorsement of the validity of their content. I, personally, have reservations about many of them. The Moon Illusion, A literature thesis by Bart Borghuis. A very extensive review of the published research, and the theories of the moon illusion. Kaufman, Lloyd and James H. Kaufman. Explaining the moon illusion. Procedings of the National Academy of Sciences in the United States of America. Vol. 97, Issue 1, 500-505, January 4, 2000. The Moon Illusion. The Moon Illusion by Carl J. Wenning. The Moon Illusion, by Hendrik Ball. The Moon Illusion Explained, by Don McCready. Sensation & Perception; Ponzo Illusion. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank= Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:02:21 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:14:57 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Balaskas >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:37:49 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >I have serious problems with the time line and the >locations. Even if something did crash on May 31,1947, I cannot >imagine why recovery operations would have been conducted out of >Roswell. >It was not an R and D center it was a busy SAC base. It >is much farther from Socorro than either Kirtland or Alamogordo >Air Field both of which were involved in R and D. >There were many recovery teams at Alamogordo to cover the >rockets being launched. >Furthermore Mac Brazel had told other people that he had been in >the area of the debris field the previous week and there was no >debris there. >No description includes anything that could be listed as a radar >reflector. Somebody indicated there were very few first hand >witnesses. The 105minute video Recollections of Roswell has >testimony from 27 witnesses..... Many of whom have indeed pased >away by now. >Even if Nick's scenario did occur, I can't find the connection >between that and the reports from either the debris field or the >Plains of San Agustin. Hi Stan! Nick Redfern has failed to establish that any of his new revelations or rediscovered facts have anything directly to do with the Roswell UFO crash and subsequant recovery operations - which also conflict with past reliable eyewitness testimony (I have the same video too). What Nick has learned or was told may make for an interesting speculative book about the many secret activities going on in that part of the world shortly after WWII but as for providing new clues that will help us to solve or better understand this 58 year old UFO mystery, he has inadvertantly managed only to confuse and thus divert us further from the truth. "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit." You(?) and Johnnie Cochran could not make your case any clearer to a jury of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:18:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:14:36 -0700 >Subject: Re: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are Linked <snip> >>Part of the reluctance of doctors and pathologists to go on >>record supporting a progeria/polydactyly origin for the AA stems >>from the ufological "giggle factor"; when shown footage and told >>what they're seeing is an alien from another world, their >>resistance is understandable. >Mac, >The mistake is telling the doctors anything before >the footage >is presented. I resoundingly agree. Maybe if the film hadn't been marketed as evidence of alien visitation it would have been a clear case of progeria from the beginning. >The only doctor I've asked to view the footage >felt that he was seeing something humanoid but not a >human and that the footage depicted a real procedure. Unfortunately, relatively few are willing to go on the record with this opinion for fear of being laughed at. After all, everyone "knows" the AA is an FX hoax. >We didn't discuss the possibility of "an alien from another >world", since I've rejected that notion since I theorize that >the creature in the AA may be alien to us, but from this world. I've always found your open-minded approach to the AA refreshing, even if I haven't agreed with everything you've said. I used to agree that, if authentic, the "alien" wasn't necessarily an ET. In fact, the being's remarkably human-like appearance had pretty much convinced me we must be related in some way. If Nick and others are right about progeria -- and I think the parallels are frankly unmistakabkle -- then it looks like I was right, although not in the sense I expected. >>But viewed in a human context,free of the baggage that >>accompanies tales of crashed flying saucers, the AA >>makes a great deal of sense. >I don't know how you can free it from that context. The footage >came from the cameraman who said it was in the context of a >crashed craft and the creatures on board that craft. As you might know, I'm highly suspicious about the alleged cameraman and the story supposedly told by him. I'm not willing to trust this guy's version of events as gospel - especially since it's entirely likely he's a commercial fiction. If he ever comes forward, I'll be obliged to reconsider. >That context includes Ray Santilli, the cameraman, the >Socorro crash site, Volker Speilberg, and the second autopsy >footage requiring another almost identical "genetically deformed >girl". I'm very intrigued by the second, never-publicized autopsy. And I think it might add credence to the progeria hypothesis (if made available to researchers). >Anyone who connects Progeria to the creature in the AA needs >both their eyes and their heads examined. Large eyes? Check. Sunken jaw? Check. Apparent absence of navel and nipples? Check. Even the head shape is dead-on. >There is only one characteristic of Progeria that the creature >exhibits: six fingers. Hardly. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:20:59 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >I think Mac as gone softheaded in his advanced years <g> You may have a point there, seeing as I turn 30 in August. But there's no need to rub it in. ;-) Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:52:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:24:44 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Allan >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:10 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:00:07 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>What about the greater (far greater) number of pages in the >>early 1990s in IUR that endlessly promoted the ETH side of the >>Roswell affair, and in which Jerry Clark once assured us that >>the forthcoming first Randle/Schmitt book was going to lay to >>rest forever (or words to that effect) the idea that UFOs never >>crash. If Nick Redfern proves right are these writers going to >>pack their bags and head off for Zeta Reticuli? >Roswell-interested ufologists - for all sorts of reasons that >seemed plausible at the time, as Nick Redfern himself points out >(they included covert official encouragement of the notion) - >did think they were dealing with an ET event. When witnesses >described very strange-looking bodies and AF officers and others >talked of a spacecraft crash and pelicanists only flapped wings >in response and couldn't even keep their theories straight, why >shouldn't Roswell investigators have taken the idea seriously? >There are worse intellectual crimes than being wrong - or, as >here, favoring a particular hypothesis before new evidence >emerges to put it into question. Or changing one's mind, as I >did as I watched the Roswell story develop over time. In my >case, I came to the view that while the ET interpretation had a >surface plausibility, it was finally unlikely to be true because >it left as much unexplained as its alternative, the Mogul claim. >That left, I judged, a shameful official secret too sensitive to >admit to even decades later. >This sort of changing of mind happens every day on all levels of >society, including science, academia, and journalism. Just >because it doesn't happen with you, it doesn't follow that it >doesn't happen with others, all the time. Actually, you might >try it sometime. You'll find it's a healthy practice. Indeed so. I once accepted Adamski as a genuine but deluded person. >>The sequel to the first Randle/Schmitt book was that within 3 >>years this same duo produced another book "The Truth about the >>UFO Crash at Roswell" in which they presented a very different >>scenario. They even had the nerve to end their text with this >>gem: "When the dust settles, you'll find that we were right... >>again". >Your point being? My point is that you plugged their first book, confidently expecting it to reveal the 'truth' It not only failed to do so, but had to be succeeded by their next book in 1994 (ironically named "The Truth...") offering a completely different version of events. The authors, however, (as by the quote I gave) still insisted they had got it right the first time, and, moreover that they had also got it right the second time. It is the word "again" that is so foolish. >From your armchair, of course, you are clueless to the >difficulty the actual investigators, most of whom I knew well >and with whom I had many searching conversations, experienced as >they tried to reconstruct a covered-up event which took place >decades earlier. (Remember when pelicanists jeered at the very >notion that something had been covered up? My, my, they've come >a long way ever since the AF owned up to a cover-up of Mogul >flights, haven't they?) What matters is that the real >investigators, as opposed to safely distant and lazy critics who >liked to tell them how gullible and stupid they were, were there >in the trenches. Because of their efforts, and not their >critics', the story remained alive. Their good work made it >possible - if Nick Redfern is generally right - for an >eventual, and extremely interesting, resolution of a mystery >that till now had defied it. Nick admits to me that he does not really expect any proof (in the form of documentary evidence) to appear. It has been conveniently destroyed, so we are told. And hardware and bodies are obviously totally out of the question. But if no documentary evidence turns up, where does that leave him? He cannot go on forever with anecdotal testimony. Further such testimony (second or third-hand) is very likely, but it leaves him in a pretty hopeless position. So without the 'hard' evidence, what chance is there of proving his thesis? Please describe, Jerry, some scenario by which Nick can one day be proved correct. I am sure you agree that the chance of an official admission is as near to zero as you can get. There never will be, I am confident, any credible first-hand witnesses. So what else is there? Over to you. And if there is never any real proof, acceptable to the masses, Nick's story will be merely another piece of folklore, as I said. >Since the case is already ancient history, any testimony is >going to be, by definition, "ancient." The above is not, alas, >the most compelling insight, though as usual you're >contradicting yourself. According to you (see above), "ancient >hearsay" should have made the case immediately explainable to >Randle, Schmitt, and others. Now you want us to believe that >"ancient hearsay" has no value. Make up your mind, Christopher. >I suppose it is churlish to add on the obvious point that a few >years ago, when the AF trotted out its hoary Mogul yarns, it >cited "ancient hearsay" as one line of evidence for its most >recent solution to the Roswell mystery. Yes, the AF relied on some 'ancient hearsay' as well, so you are correct to fault them here. But at least with Mogul there is plenty of documentary evidence. Balloons & radar reflectors were being launched from nearby during that time period, and some of them approximately in the direction where the initial debris was found. And it was a secret project.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:12:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:26:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gehrman >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:17:20 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>I'm still convinced that a craft crashed in two locations (blew >>apart in the air) NW of Roswell, close to ten PM on the 2nd of >>July, 1947. Creatures were recovered along with the craft they >>were flying. The main body of the craft was recovered the 3rd >>and morning of the 4th. >>The remainder of the material was later discovered and reported >>by Mac Brazil and recovered during the 8th and 9th of July. Some >>of the debris mixed with parts of from radar reflector and >>balloon pieces were sent to Ft. Worth and photographed. >We differ on the timeline, Ed. What crashed near Socorro and was >the origin of the debris and creatures in the AA film came down >on the last day of May, 1947. Bob, Yes I agree. We have no argument. I was only talking about the Roswell crash that took place in July. My time line comes from Roswell witness testimony Mac's interview, and the testimony of the MP, the only eye witness to the actual removal of the craft. By his directions we can calculate that the main body of the craft came down somewhere in the vicinity of Gallo arroyo and Fifteenmile arroyo, south of hwy 247. He was sure the wreckage was cleared by the morning of the 4th of July. >The fireball was seen by many >people as it streaked across the New Mexico sky that evening >just after sunset. The elderly American Indian woman that Mike >Hesemann and I interviewed remembers it clearly, as it was one >of the most exciting things that happened during her life. She >remembers the date precisely because it was her birthday. Among >her people seeing something like this is regarded as a very evil >omen. Yes I found that very striking testimony, and convincing. There are more witnesses to the event and we could interview many leads if we had folks working on this. >The cameraman and the rest of the military personnel were >dispatched to the crash site on June 1, 1947. I don't know how >many days the recovery operation took. The cameraman says he >always assumed that what he was involved in was the Roswell >crash because the teams all worked out of Roswell AAF, and went >from there to the crash site in convoys. No, the AA is not the Roswell crash but the AA creatures resemble the Roswell creatures. That's why the MP contacted me. He said that they looked the same to him. The MP and the cameraman have communicated and the cameraman decided that they were not at the same recovery site. >I think that what Mac Brazil found had been lying there over a >month when he stumbled onto it. The important people at Roswell >already knew about the earlier recovery operation when he showed >up in town with his story and debris. No I think there are two separate events but Roswell is divided into two crash sites, the Brazel site and the MP site and this event happened on the night of July 2nd, 1947. Both were discovered the next day, but Mac waited two days to bring the debris material to the sheriff. >The coverup may have >already been fully planned just in case someone stumbled onto >debris and brought it into town.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:12:07 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:14:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Bourdais >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:31:44 EDT >Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:25:31 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Some Roswell Thoughts >>A few days ago I received in the post an article for inclusion >>in the next issue of UFO Review from Andrew Pike. UK List >>members will remember Andrew as the astronomy >correspondent for >>the now defunct UK version of UFO magazine. He was with the >mag >>for a great many years and earned a reputation as a very >>knowledgeable and sober author. >>Andrew has not read the Nick Redfern interview yet and was >>not aware of its existence when he wrote his piece but amongst >>other things in his article, he is extremely scathing about the >>news from Brazil and the government's changed approach down >>there. He is utterly convinced that it is a CIA controlled >>action. I doubt that he has any proof of that whatsoever and his >>opinion is based upon years of observation and a perhaps >>slightly more advanced awareness than most of the activities of >>the Intelligence services. Greg, I am intrigued by this strange opinion on Brazil, and I wonder what it has to do with the discussion on the Redfern book. To me, it looks like a very valuable advance has been achieved by Brazilian ufologists, who have been officialy greeted at the Air Force headquarters. I don't see any relation there with our discussion on Roswell. Unless, attempts are made now to cast doubt on this Brazilian advance? >>I think some of you will be ahead of me by now but, is it a >>coincidence that one week we get a major story from a country >>with a strong allegiance to the United States with stories of >>aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin and two weeks later >we >>get a story that arguably collapses one of the principle alien >>related cases of the genre, with a possible domino effect on the >>rest of the subject? Could you clarify? Do you suppose that the Brazilian Air Force would be participating in a UFO debunking campaign, together with their American counterparts? I remind you that the events in the Nord Este of Brazil have been already well investigated and documented. The Air Force is merely confirming and completing previous informations. They are not really revealing new, sensational, stories of "aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin". <snip> >Redfern's book is intriguing to me because it's a story I had >heard before but at that time said to myself that it's a last >gasp hope of a tired disinformation campaign. I put it on the >back burner and sure enough little by little it began to kick >off an aroma meaning something was cooking. What it was required >eye witness testimony, documents and above all physical proof. Well, that's the good question, what kind of cooking is that? >For me, a disclosure from a top engineer who did some research >for me. Hipped me to Unit 731 in regard to UFOs. Again, I put it >on the back burner and did not mention to this list anything >because if I don't have a source name I don't mention it. >Plain and simple. >More data simmered up and I was lucky enough to have had fans >from an old online magazine I worked at, called Parascope, that >kept in touch with me over the years doing UFO research. >I had no idea many of them owned their own global corporations, >institutions of research and more! No small fries I'll tell you. >Each source had some tidbit that could, I say, could support >Nick's research! So I got on the phone and email and sent them >all a copy of your review email. For me, there are four (4) >points in Redfern's research that I can have proven that would >be enough for me. If out of that four only one is validated, he >still wins a great deal. You are saying too much or not enough : what are your four points? >I've even chatted with Nick on email about one source that is >irrefutably the expert on one major part of his research. >Without a doubt the experts there have every damned detail Nick >could want. I sent them your review. All this sounds stranger every minute now. In a previous post I suggested that, if the Redfern version is true, the cat being now out of the bag, the best thing to do for American authorities is put the whole story on the table, because if they don't the whole thing is going to be more and more schoking and ridiculous. To that, Nick ansers me that, first he does not think they are willing to do that, and that anyway, it is possible that nobody knows the whole story anymore. But here you are hinting that some important people know it ! >Guess what? >They chickened out. >"What?" says I. These experts I've known some for over 30 years >as they were heroes of mine as a kid and worked in advanced >technologies with my family members. They read that review and >backed off faster than a houndog on a polecat. Normally they'd >be a-jawin' til the cows came home and then gone back to jawin' >til the cows went out! >Why the shut mouths all of a sudden? I know why and so does a >top UFO researcher here who has neglected and futzed his way out >of facing certain UFO issues which isn't a surprise :) >As I mentioned, I have four (4) bodies of experts who can >verify those four points of Nick's research that I find of >interest as if true, it's verifiable. >So far Nick is 1:3 and that's good enough for me. What scares >the hell out of me is that the second validation will come true. >If it does, that's it, I'm outta here. My only advice after that >would be get your shootin' irons and Bibles.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:49:12 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:16:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:25:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Hi, Gildas, >>>In his thoughtful posting earlier today, John Rimmer agrees >>>that Redfern's ideas merit real consideration and may offer a >>>way to break the Roswell stalemate. It ought to be possible to >>>go beyond proponent/pelicanist disputes by acknowledging that >>>(a) Skeptics were right to argue that Roswell was not an ET event >>I am still waiting for solid arguments to reach such a >>conclusion. >>And I see many strong arguments to the contrary. >Good. I think a vigorous discussion in light of these new >developments will be good for everybody and help clarify the >relative strengths and weaknesses of the various Roswell >interpretations. I look forward to reading what you have to say. >As you know, I have high regard your opinion and your work, and >this is a highly complicated subject on which reasonable people >will have different opinions. I do hope, however, that soon, one >way or another, we will have sufficient clarity that serious >observers can reach a consensus concerning what did or did not >happen. Jerry, Thank you for you appreciation of my work. In turn, I can tell you that you IUR is the best one that I know. But do you realize how many papers, that you published over the years in IUR, are in total contradiction with the Redfern story? And how strongly they point to a UFO crash recovery?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:27:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:35:48 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:52:01 +0100 >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Lehmberg >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>>>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>><snip> >>>>Listening closely, one can begin to hear the faux-victory >>>>chanters wheeze their tiny little sighs of sophistic >>>>satisfaction as they return, renewed, to the role of "foul >>>>beast" lurching off to CSICOPia to be reborn. Our Mr. Harney >>>>was one of the first emboldened to that pompous lurching. Mr. >>>>Rimmer follows the very next day in his usual, knowingly >>>>lugubrious, manner. Mr. Smith natters in? >>>Hello Alfred, >>>Couldn't disagree with you more, to the point where I am >>>wondering if we're reading the same posts. >>We are... >>>Firstly, you must remove John Rimmer from your over >>>generalisation. >>Mmmmm, no... it remains, Sir, that you might welcome a conflicted >>mole into your midst as there are... years? ...of avian >>behaviors to reflect upon here... and what has walked like a >>duck and quacked like a duck must remain a duck very >>plausibly... and so be considered a duck for a residual amount >>of time remaining. But you're to be commended, of course, for >>_your_ collegiality . >>>The man has displayed a civility and decency >>>that raises him to a new level as far as I'm concerned. >>I'm not so quick to 'forgive'. I suspect a loss leading >>collegiality, only, given that this new Roswell flavor, as >>legitimate as it may be in the end, is a small trifecta for his >>camp and he can afford, then, a gracious collegiality, now, to >>maximize regressive gains to be made... later. The attitude by >>some folks here is a little like the attitude of a child >>thankful that daddy stopped beating him abruptly because he had >>maimed the child's finger (or was able to advantage himself as a >>result). It remains that he has not played by the same rules, >>almost to date, like any good CSICOPian. What could explain such >>an abrupt turn-around but the calculation I have described >>above? >To be fair to Mr Lehmberg, I can appreciate the point that he is >making. Ahh... and this that last refuge of that scoundrel I have come to love to hate, forgive a little hyperbole... this damning of the faintest praise. Exquisite! So refined and beautifully done, Sir. If I had Mr. Reynold's platoon of nascent media pundits I would assemble them, all, for a respectful golf-clap. >As a well-known 'pelicanist', 'skeptibunker', >'klasskurtzian' and perhaps even a 'post-pelicanist', it might >seem suspicious that I suddenly turn up on UpDates apparently >giving some credence to an explanation for Roswell which, >although it will probably be derided by the above mentioned >enemies of ufology, still actually presents a non-ETH >explanation for the case. And more surprisingly, I even get >Jerry Clark supporting me, and Stuart Miller accusing me of >civility and decency! Mr. Rimmer! Sir! I think you may be premature applying an appellation of support from Mr. Clark or endorsement of _any_ kind by Mr. Miller. These gentlemen must eventually come to their well abused senses, remember what has gone before and then gratefully return to their very valid and pointed criticisms of your paradigm, at the very _least_. Don't get all warm and fuzzy. >My approach to this does indeed seem a prima-facie case of >'loss-leading', in that I support one unlikely explanation of >Roswell in order to discredit a - to me - unacceptable (i.e. >ETH) explanation for the case. The next sentence will of course be some well camouflaged variation of the word, "but"... >All I can say in my defence A-ha! >is that I have not yet read Nick >Redfern's book, and all I know of the matter is the interview in >Stuart's newsletter, and it presents an intriguing and >superficially plausible argument. That cat's well out of the bag, Sir, what remains are the details of how it ran around the house and peed in our shoes. Not reading the book, therefore, is a shallow excuse for innocence of character when we've already been exposed to the ending of the story to a degree... and the damage that you would love to have done yourself, I suspect, is done by another... more effective... in doing said "damage". Redfern is a little like Nixon opening up China... it would not even have been _accepted_ from someone such as yourself, Unca' Shermy, or Kal Korff. All that remains is for _you_ to be unctuously gracious in your 'victory'. The guilty cat blaming the dead bird on the dog... >And of course, we live in a >period where many people are prepared to believe almost anything >to the detriment of the US Government, both the present one and >any preceding ones! Hey! Don't think for a moment that many of us here "in the colonies" are not keenly aware that what you say here... very likely has its degree of truth. I won't hold you responsible for Blair, please don't hold me responsible for Bush. I'm shamed to the skin with regard to what I'm finding out, do what I can at pains of some risk when dealing with authoritarian fascisms, nascent or otherwise, and won't be taking a beating about it from a child of last Century's Empire builder... but thank you. >Of course, on seeing Mr Redfern's evidence >in full, I may decide that it is not as plausible as I first >thought, although I readily admit that it is most unlikely even >if the Redfern explanation is later discredited, that I will >then swing to the ETH on the rebound! It's like Stanton Friedman says, "...don't trifle me with the facts (Friedman, Clark & Hall), my mind's made up"! >So I will say to Mr Lehmberg that I understand his suspicions as >to my motives, but he is ascribing a Machiavellian cunning to me >that, currently at least, I an innocent of. I find these claims >and allegations about Roswell genuinely provocative and >intriguing and I look forward to reading (and maybe, if >warranted, contributing) to the debate. In that more perfect world we would both profess to prefer to inhabit, Sir... I should just be able to take you at your word regarding a minimal Machiavellianism, a lack of eeee-villl cunning, and a self-professed cornucopic _abundance_ of dewy eyed innocence with regard to this entire affair.... You are of course familiar, Sir, with my "damp leg" analogy... I know what your orchards have produced historically, Mr. Rimmer. Let's all see what they produce, subsequently. I'm predicting the usual non-nutritious-ness. But we'll see, eh? >Yours with sweetness and light... Of course. What else could you do in this new era of trust and human decency... this golden age of good will and blossoming collegiality? Rofl! ...Uh... askance and akimbo, Mr. Rimmer. I suspect, still, that you are an agent of the ufological Sith <g>], and you pretty much admitted it yourself in this letter, if a reader was paying attention. Aren't I just... terrible?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:44:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:38:19 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:23 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >(2) If ever there was an issue in ufology that could be >definitively settled, beyond question it is whether or not the >AA film shows a victim of progeria. Clearly it does not. A >simple Google search using the one word 'progeria' turns up >ample photos and other evidence to disprove that beyond >question. On the other hand, to my way of thinking the AA film >has no clear or proven connection to the Roswell crash in the >first place, and remains very dubious and suspect as possible >(or even likely) disinformation baloney. It could be absolutely >'real' (i.e., valid film) of something significant that has no >bearing whatsoever on Roswell. Thanks, Richard. We need to put the progeria BS where it belongs, in the nonsense file. Anyone who looks at the AA film and then at progeria victims and says they are the same is lacking in basic visual literacy. Unfortunately, that condition seems to be rather common. Now about Roswell. As I pointed out earlier and Stan amplified, the timeline is wrong for Roswell as we understand it. But the cameraman said that "Operation Anvil", as he says this recovery was code named, he only assumed to be the Roswell incident because his team operated out of Roswell AAF. Why did they operate out of Roswell when other bases were closer? I would suspect that the answer lies in security levels and knowledge of radiation. They were the only one of the bases accustomed to handling atomic bombs. But decisions made at high levels in the military do not always seem logical, anyway. An important point for all of those advocating the "pelican with progeria" viewpoint is the debris footage. The cameraman clearly recalls shooting this. In it we see the "boxes" that the cameraman says the "freaks" were clutching, along with some exceptionally light I-beams and other interesting junk from the crash. If we were dealing with progeria victims used for some sort of evil testing, why on earth would they be clutching these boxes, and why would the debris from the craft have "alien"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: The Moon Illusion An Unsolved Mystery - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:58:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:41:14 -0400 Subject: Re: The Moon Illusion An Unsolved Mystery - Hatch >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:47:25 -0700 >Subject: The Moon Illusion An Unsolved Mystery >Here we go, and from a source with some memory attached- >http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/3d/moonillu.htm >The Moon Illusion, An Unsolved Mystery. >by Donald E. Simanek >Disclaimer. The following review of this long-standing problem >is not a research paper. The author is not trained in psychology >or cognitive science. Consider it a semi-critical review of the >common competing hypotheses about the moon illusion, and some >experiments relevant to that problem. Consider it merely an >opinion piece if you wish. >What is the moon illusion? The so-called "moon illusion" or >"moon effect" has perplexed people since earliest historical >times, at least as early as the 7th century BCE. It is described >in early Greek and Chinese writings. Aristotle mentions it in >350 BCE. Hello Terry: Boy does this bring back memories. I was age 8 or so, in the street in front of this very same house I returned to, when I was first struck by the huge moon effect. I'm convinced its psychological, though I have no expertise in psycho matters. The cited photography tests seem to indicate psychology, and I was as much 'fooled' by it as anyone else. It was a warm nite, possibly late Summer. The moon was very low in the sky to the south-east, or right down the street since they are tilted that way. I was stunned. The moon was a ruddy orange color, and I could have sworn it subtended an angle of a small tennis ball at arm's length. I knew no such terminology then, and didn't think of holding out my thumb like and artist does, to judge its apparent dimensions. All I remember was asking myself how the moon could have possibly doubled or tripled in diameter, and why was it so creepy orangey-red instead of dullish white in color. Maybe 3 years prior to that, my sister had a stunning UFO sighting, a golden sphere that came down the same street but from the opposite direction (from the north-west) which stopped for a moment, then shot back to the NW from which it came. I see no connection between the two events. I'm still waiting and hoping for the day I see something I could honestly call a 'UFO'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:49:10 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:50:21 -0400 Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) - Miller >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:05:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:01 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:12 -0500 >>>Subject: They Fail... (Roswell Redux) >><snip> >Mmmmm, no... it remains, Sir, that you might welcome a >conflicted mole into your midst as there are... years? ...of > avian behaviors to reflect upon here... and what has walked >like a duck and quacked like a duck must remain a duck very >plausibly... and so be considered a duck for a residual amount Thank you Alfred. The header of your original post puzzled me. I have looked up the word redux, which I have noticed used here on this List not infrequently, as it's meaning has always defied me and yet, my English (English) dictionary does not carry it. I presume therefore, as per your paragraph above, that redux are some other related species to ordinary ducks. I must further presume that redux are sceptical in their approach but scpetical of what? This is a cloud and I suspect clarity lurks in the mysterious minutiae of differences that exist between U.S. and U.K. spoken English. BTW, you are aware I hope that ducks over here do not quack? They "humph" politely and if you don't move, they rip your trouser legs to ribbons.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:31:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:53:32 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:58:21 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:42:12 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>>It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- >>>level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- >>>related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue >>>leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly >>>contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on >>>pp. 191-3 of his classic book, the veritable Bible of >>>critically- sifted Roswell investigative data (2001). It may >>>interest some of you to know that the TOP SECRET Roswell policy >>>response also contradicts Redfern's scenario in every respect, >>>and in fact would be be rendered absurd by his scenario. >>Can you please tell us all exactly what this policy was and what >>makes you think it is connected to Roswell and not any other >>developments of the period >I already answered that. Reverse everything in Karl's policy >counteraguments. This is nonsense, what you are suggesting is that we reconstruct the document in our own imaginations in contradiction to what Pflock wrote - i.e. that there was a major defence policy inaugurated in July 1947 in response to Roswell. Come on, what exactly is this document, who wrote it to whom, where can it be found and when are you going to publish it. Listfolk should imagine how real historians would react if one of their number claimed to have access to some documents which completely altered our view of recent history (eg they were supposed to prove that for much of his working life J. Edgar Hoover was the major Soviet agent in the US) but refused to let their colleagues see them or reveal what they were. Who would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:00:27 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:56:41 -0400 Subject: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico by Santiago Yturria A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police department, newspapers and television reporters and many people gathered at Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony where the new patrol units wouls be delivered to the police department. The surprising incident took place at 10:30 AM causing commotion, excitement and certain alarm amont the people and officials. Just after governor Fidel Herrera Beltran made a speech inagurating the new units and during an inspection of a new patrol his attention was called by his officials signaling to the sky where a strange spectacle was appearing. A spectacular UFO fleet of at least 14 unkown flying objects captured the attention of all the people gathered at casa Veracruz who signaling to the sky screamed OVNIs, OVNIs !! in an agitated state of excitement. The police officers were also signaling to the sky wondering what these unknown flying obJects could be. Diferent reactions were heard from surprise, curiosity, disconcert and even some laughs among the people who continue shouting OVNIs !! The newspaper reporters were taking photos and the television crew recording the unusual spectacle. Governor Fidel Herrera Beltran took the microphone and said joking: It seems the martians have arrived !! The people wondered if the strange objects could be balloons of some kind or in fact real UFOs like those so many times reported over Mexico. However the engimatic flying objects remained almost static in the sky in formation describing a triangle pattern in perfect alignement for almost 30 minutes, time enough for the incident to be videotaped by the media and some persons from the audience. On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos on their national tv newscast giving the account of the unprecedent incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de Xalapa newspaper as well as others published on main headlines the unusual event under the title: Luminous Objects caught the attention during official act. Special thanks to Arturo del Moral.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 25 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:00:22 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:02:21 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:37:49 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>I have serious problems with the time line and the >>locations. Even if something did crash on May 31,1947, I cannot >>imagine why recovery operations would have been conducted out of >>Roswell. >>It was not an R and D center it was a busy SAC base. It >>is much farther from Socorro than either Kirtland or Alamogordo >>Air Field both of which were involved in R and D. >>There were many recovery teams at Alamogordo to cover the >>rockets being launched. >>Furthermore Mac Brazel had told other people that he had been in >>the area of the debris field the previous week and there was no >>debris there. >>No description includes anything that could be listed as a radar >>reflector. Somebody indicated there were very few first hand >>witnesses. The 105minute video Recollections of Roswell has >>testimony from 27 witnesses..... Many of whom have indeed pased >>away by now. >>Even if Nick's scenario did occur, I can't find the connection >>between that and the reports from either the debris field or the >>Plains of San Agustin. >Nick Redfern has failed to establish that any of his new >revelations or rediscovered facts have anything directly to do >with the Roswell UFO crash and subsequant recovery operations - >which also conflict with past reliable eyewitness testimony (I >have the same video too). >What Nick has learned or was told may make for an interesting >speculative book about the many secret activities going on in >that part of the world shortly after WWII but as for providing >new clues that will help us to solve or better understand this >58 year old UFO mystery, he has inadvertantly managed only to >confuse and thus divert us further from the truth. I have been following this discussion with some amusement, having recently posted the "Hawk Tales" (no longer "exempt from disclosure.") Everyone is discussion mainly the immediate repercussions of a crash of something near Roswell or wherever. But if something like a ET crash actually occurred there would be long term consequences, such as setting up a group of people to control access to the hard proof and to decide what to do about it (policy). Hawk's story has a thread that may be related to what Nick is talking about: radiation experiments on humanoids by the Lovelace Institute in the 40's, 50's and maybe 60's. But were these test subjects humanoids (alien) or actually deformed humans? Considering the rest of Hawk's tale one would have to conclude that they weren't human. I invite anyone trying to decipher Roswell to become even more confused (if ETs are not involved) by reading Exempt from Disclosure (see www.ufoconspiracy.com)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A UFO From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:32:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:32:45 -0400 Subject: Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A UFO Source: San Francisco Chronicle - San Francisco http://tinyurl.com/786xv Sunday, June 26, 2005 Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A UFO by Michael Curta The following article is reprinted with permission of the Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, a nonprofit organization "dedicated to the scientific study of UFOs for the benefit of humanity." The group collects and analyzes UFO data, publishes a journal and holds an annual conference. For more information, go to mufon.com.. Every year, more than 70,000 reports of UFO sightings come into UFO research organizations around the world. While it is true that nine out of 10 sightings are explainable, it is also true that only one in 10 is ever reported, and each year the number of reports increases. Is this because there are more sightings? Is it because more people are willing to come forward and report their sightings to researchers? Or could it simply be that, in the past, witnesses did not know where to report sightings? Whatever the case may be, and you could make a case for all three, the fact remains that the number of reports is going up at an incredible rate. There are far more reports than investigators, and that is where the witnesses must help the investigator. Think of the sighting like a crime. Though the only crime being committed is the one our government commits by its unwillingness to openly investigate such sightings, I say think of it as a crime because you never know what is going to happen, and you need to remember exact details of the event for recall at a later time. The information that follows is designed to help you help investigators. 1. The No. 1 thing to remember is REMAIN CALM! But protect yourself from any hazards real or perceived. Be prepared to take evasive (but not aggressive) action to get out of its way. Remember: You might be witnessing the event of a lifetime and will want to remember every detail. You can't do that if you are hysterical. 2. Be objective. Not every UFO is extraterrestrial. Eliminate every other possibility (within your means) first. Only after that should you consider the possibility that what you saw might be a true UFO. 3. Use a camcorder or camera to record the event. Try to keep reference points in the field of view, as this will aid researchers in analyzing the film. If you do not have a camera or camcorder, draw pictures of what you saw and the area around it. 4. If you have a tape recorder, record your description of the event as it happens. Include reference points on this tape also. For example, "I am about 10 yards from the big oak tree and the craft is 30 yards beyond that." If you don't have a tape recorder, write down your observations right after the event. 5. If other witnesses are present, ask them to write or record their observations. But do NOT discuss the event with them (at least until after your observations have been recorded) as investigators want to know what you saw, not what your neighbor saw. 6. If the UFO left some trace of its presence behind, do not disturb the area around it, and restrict access to the site (it's not a crime anymore; it's now a crime scene). Photograph the area around the site before you enter the area, and make note of the exact position of everything. Take close-up photos or videotape the evidence before touching it. Remember: You don't know what you're touching, where it came from or what type of hazards might be associated with it. 7. If the sighting is from a distance, at an arms length, what would it take to cover up the object? A quarter? A penny? A dime? An aspirin? Or would it take something bigger? A golf ball? A baseball? Or a tennis ball? 8. Try to judge the distance from you to the object, the object's altitude and its speed. Was it across the street or was it over the next field? Was it treetop level or was it a few hundred feet up? Did it cross the sky in five seconds or five minutes? 9. Should you encounter some type of extraterrestrial being associated with the craft, be prepared to take evasive action to protect yourself. From a safe distance, in a concealed position, photograph or videotape the being. If you are unable to safely get photos of the being, draw it and write down a description as soon as it is safe to do so. 10. Immediately report the event to a UFO research organization for investigation. There are several such organizations around the world. The Mutual UFO Network is the largest and most noted of these organizations, with investigators in all 50 states and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Experts To Check Out Trevor Crop Circle From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:37:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:37:40 -0400 Subject: Experts To Check Out Trevor Crop Circle Source: The Journal Times - Racine, Wisconsin http://tinyurl.com/aeycf 26 June 2005 Experts to check out Trevor crop circle By Janine Anderson TREVOR - From the road it doesn't look like much. Just a field of ripening wheat stalks, rippling in the breeze. At the top of a rise partway into the field the even pattern of golden wheat breaks up a little bit, like there was a patch of seed that didn't take. The stalks aren't as crowded there, and when the wind moves past it's not the same even, water-like ripples that move across the rest of the field. In that spot, circles of wheat have been bent over, the once upright stalks now running horizontal in a counterclockwise circle. Trevor has a crop circle. Mary Sutherland, a investigator with Burlington UFO and Paranormal, learned of the circle earlier this week, when a man who lives near the field sent her an e-mail. In the e-mail he told Sutherland about the circle, noting that it could just be that someone drove around in the field, but there are no tracks leading up to the disturbed area. Instead, it's like a giant wheel lay flat in the field and spun, pushing the wheat over gently but firmly, so that it stayed bent but did not strip the grains from the stalks. Sutherland went out to investigate after she learned of the circle. She took photos and soil samples, and she called in the experts. One was coming in Friday to take aerial photographs, she said. Another group was due to stop by the field today. They'll likely bring Geiger counters and audio equipment, and they will compare wheat from within the circle and without, to try and figure out if the circle is real or if it is a hoax. Sutherland believes it is real. "If it was a hoax, they would have made it more visible from the road," she said. This is the second crop circle in Wisconsin she and her husband, Brad, have investigated. The last one was in Mayville in 2003. The Independent Crop Circle Researchers Association came out to help with that one, too. Jeffrey Wilson is the director of the ICCRA. He drove from Ohio to Wisconsin Friday night so he could be around to take a look today. Much of the research he wants to do will try and prove whether someone mechanically created the circle. Hoaxes have what he calls "tell-tale signs of damage" to the plants themselves. They look for that damage, but also compare plants' growth nodes to see if there are differences between the upright and flattened stalks. "If the ones that are flattened have enlarged or elongated (growth nodes), that is an unhoaxable effect," Wilson said. He investigated his first crop circle about 10 years ago, after he went to a site in northern Ohio where he detected radioactivity inside the crop circle. "I knew there was something more than people flattening it down with wood or a rope," he said. "There are some (circles) people are making that way, but they're not all making them that way." Wilson and Sutherland believe in sharing the information they gather on crop circles with the public, which is why Sutherland agreed to show the Trevor circle off Friday morning. Sutherland believes the crop circles are some sort of landmark, left by beings in UFOs. They may be signs that spacecraft landed, flattening the crops with some kind of electromagnetic energy. She also believes that the crop circles are a sign that a race of beings that spent time on Earth thousands of years ago are returning. She connects the crop circles to Stonehenge, the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Sandy Bay Manitoba Formation From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:07:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:39:53 -0400 Subject: Sandy Bay Manitoba Formation CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network June 25, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ UPDATE - SANDY BAY, MANITOBA FORMATION On Sandy Bay Reserve (Catholic), near Lake Manitoba. First seen June 2, reported to CCCRN Manitoba on June 6. On-site investigation by CCCRN Manitoba on June 16 (soonest possible). Approximately 8 metres (26 feet) long. Grass missing, not flattened, with 1/4 inch deep "grooves" in soil, but formation is similar in shape to some early 1990s dumbbell-type formations in England, with three sets of concentric rings connected by straight pathways. Grass and soil in area later became partly waterlogged due to excessive rain. Aligned north-south. Also another "design" nearby, three circles made of fist- sized rocks, with curving lines of rocks between the circles. A diagram and additional ground photos have also been posted to the CCCRN web site. _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:20:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Clark >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul><gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:49:12 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:25:47 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End Gildas, >Thank you for you appreciation of my work. In turn, I can >tell you that you IUR is the best one that I know. But do you >realize how many papers, that you published over the years in >IUR, are in total contradiction with the Redfern story? And how >strongly they point to a UFO crash recovery? Yes, at one time I was disposed to the conclusion that the Roswell incident was a UFO case. For some time, though, I have been less and less certain of that, while also being skeptical of the Mogul explanation for all the reasons Roswell proponents, including yourself, have cited. I defer further comment till I read Redfern's book next week.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:01 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:53:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:00:27 +0000 >Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >by Santiago Yturria >A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police department, >newspapers and television reporters and many people gathered at >Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony where the new patrol >units wouls be delivered to the police department. <snip> >On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos on >their national tv newscast giving the account of the unprecedent >incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de Xalapa newspaper as >well as others published on main headlines the unusual event >under the title: Luminous Objects caught the attention during >official act. >Special thanks to Arturo del Moral. >http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050625/local/3local.asp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:46:14 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:59:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Boone >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:12:07 +0200 >Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:31:44 EDT >>Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:25:31 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Some Roswell Thoughts >>>A few days ago I received in the post an article for inclusion >>>in the next issue of UFO Review from Andrew Pike. UK List >>>members will remember Andrew as the astronomy >>>correspondent for >>>the now defunct UK version of UFO magazine. He was with >>>the >mag >>>for a great many years and earned a reputation as a very >>>knowledgeable and sober author. >>>Andrew has not read the Nick Redfern interview yet and was >>>not aware of its existence when he wrote his piece but >>>amongst >>>other things in his article, he is extremely scathing about the >>>news from Brazil and the government's changed approach >>>down >>>there. He is utterly convinced that it is a CIA controlled >>>action. I doubt that he has any proof of that whatsoever and >>>his >>>opinion is based upon years of observation and a perhaps >>>slightly more advanced awareness than most of the activities >>>of >>>the Intelligence services. >Greg, >I am intrigued by this strange opinion on Brazil, and I wonder >what it has to do with the discussion on the Redfern book. To >me, it looks like a very valuable advance has been achieved by >Brazilian ufologists, who have been officialy greeted at the Air >Force headquarters. I don't see any relation there with our >discussion on Roswell. Unless, attempts are made now to cast >doubt on this Brazilian advance? Dude, check your emails and responses, you've misquoted me and are responding to someone else's post. >>>I think some of you will be ahead of me by now but, is it a >>>coincidence that one week we get a major story from a >>>country >>>with a strong allegiance to the United States with stories of >>>aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin and two weeks late >>>we >>>get a story that arguably collapses one of the principle alien >>>related cases of the genre, with a possible domino effect on >>>the >>>rest of the subject? >Could you clarify? Do you suppose that the Brazilian Air Force >would be participating in a UFO debunking campaign, together >with their American counterparts? I remind you that the events >in the Nord Este of Brazil have been already well investigated >and documented. The Air Force is merely confirming and >completing previous informations. They are not really revealing >new, sensational, stories of "aliens running amok in the >Amazon >Basin". Hellooo? Dude, again, check your emails. You've misquoted me and are responding to someone else's posts. Again. <snip> >>Redfern's book is intriguing to me because it's a story I had >>heard before but at that time said to myself that it's a last >>gasp hope of a tired disinformation campaign. I put it on the >>back burner and sure enough little by little it began to kick >>off an aroma meaning something was cooking. What it was >>required >>eye witness testimony, documents and above all physical >>proof. >Well, that's the good question, what kind of cooking is that? Now that you're responding to something I've posted, can you clarify if you're confused by a figure of speech or you're trying to be facetious? >>For me, a disclosure from a top engineer who did some research >>for me. Hipped me to Unit 731 in regard to UFOs. Again, I put it >>on the back burner and did not mention to this list anything >>because if I don't have a source name I don't mention it. >>Plain and simple. >>More data simmered up and I was lucky enough to have had >>fans >>from an old online magazine I worked at, called Parascope, >>that >>kept in touch with me over the years doing UFO research. >>I had no idea many of them owned their own global >>corporations, >>institutions of research and more! No small fries I'll tell you. >>Each source had some tidbit that could, I say, could support >>Nick's research! So I got on the phone and email and sent >>them >>all a copy of your review email. For me, there are four (4) >>points in Redfern's research that I can have proven that would >>be enough for me. If out of that four only one is validated, he >>still wins a great deal. >You are saying too much or not enough : what are your four points? My four points are in the hands of researchers and reporters that I trust due to their courtesy and conduct. Sorry I haven't entrusted these to you yet as I don't know you that well. You can ask Nick or Jeff Rense though. >>I've even chatted with Nick on email about one source that is >>irrefutably the expert on one major part of his research. >>Without a doubt the experts there have every damned detail Nick >>could want. I sent them your review. >All this sounds stranger every minute now. In a previous post I >suggested that, if the Redfern version is true, the cat being >now out of the bag, the best thing to do for American >authorities is put the whole story on the table, because if they >don't the whole thing is going to be more and more schoking >ridiculous. To that, Nick ansers me that, first he does not >think they are willing to do that, and that anyway, it is >possible that nobody knows the whole story anymore. But here you >are hinting that some important people know it! You're damned right important people know it. My concern isn't what crashed or didn't crash. It involves whether or not illegal experimentation was done on us humans by our own governments. A cursory look at the past 100 years will validate that it ain't that rare for us folks to end up under the gaze of some scientific agenda of ill-will. >>Guess what? >>They chickened out. >>"What?" says I. These experts I've known some for over 30 >>years >>as they were heroes of mine as a kid and worked in advanced >>technologies with my family members. They read that review >>and >>backed off faster than a houndog on a polecat. Normally >>they'd >>be a-jawin' til the cows came home and then gone back to >>jawin' >>til the cows went out! >>Why the shut mouths all of a sudden? I know why and so >>does a >>top UFO researcher here who has neglected and futzed his >>way out >>of facing certain UFO issues which isn't a surprise :) >>As I mentioned, I have four (4) bodies of experts who can >>verify those four points of Nick's research that I find of >>interest as if true, it's verifiable. >>So far Nick is 1:3 and that's good enough for me. What >>scares >>the hell out of me is that the second validation will come true. >>If it does, that's it, I'm outta here. My only advice after that >>would be get your shootin' irons and Bibles. >My impression is, at this stage, the gondola plot thickens! >Gildas Bourdais Oh yeah, regarding Brazil. I have tons of family and friends down there and they're thrilled about the UFO news. They've been complaining about it for decades. Especially in Sao Paulo. Matter of fact I just chatted with a cousin there who agrees with me. People there need more cameras.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 FOIA Request To Langley AFB 'Flyer' Newspaper From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:03:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:04:50 -0400 Subject: FOIA Request To Langley AFB 'Flyer' Newspaper From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> To: Rothwell Deborah L Civ 1 FW/IG <Deborah.Rothwell.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:03:20 -0500 Subject: FOIA Request re My Ad-review Submission of May 9, 2005, to Langley AFB "Flyer" Newspaper TO: Ms. Deborah L. Rothwell Deputy Inspector General USAF 1st Fighter Wing Langley Air Force Base, VA 23665 FROM: Larry W. Bryant 3518 Martha Custis Drive Alexandria, VA 22302 DATE: June 25, 2005 Ms. Rothwell: Referring to your below-quoted June 24, 2005, reply to my complaint to you of June 3, 2005, I hereby request, under terms of the U. S. Freedom of Information Act, that your command furnish me a copy of all Langley-generated and Langley-received records pertaining to my ad-review submission of May 9, 2005 -- said records to include the following categories of records: (1) Correspondence (including e-mail messages) exchanged among personnel of your office, the LAFB office of public affairs, and any and all other offices, whether they be operated by the government or by any private-sector entity. (2) Memoranda for record and memoranda of telephone conversations. (3) Document-transmittal slips, disposition forms, tasking documents, minutes of meetings, briefing papers, talking-point charts, staff reports, and IG-investigation reports. (4) The "Flyer's" current publishing contract. (5) The current edition of Air Force Instruction 35-101. Since I make this request as an independent writer focusing on national-security affairs (particularly as regards the government cover-up of the UFO experience), I ask that you waive all records-search fees incident to your fulfillment of this request. -- Larry W. Bryant ----- Text Of Ms. Rothwell's E-Mail To L.W.B. (June 24, 2005): Good Morning Sir, Here is the response to your inquiry concerning your ad-review submission of May 9, 2005. With the termination of Project Blue Book, the Air Force regulation establishing and controlling the program for investigation and analyzing UFOs was rescinded. Documentation regarding the former Blue Book investigation was permanently transferred to the Modern Military Branch, National Archives and Records Service, and is available for public review and analysis. The newspaper contract Langley AFB has with Military Newspapers stipulates, in section 4, Line "d" that the publisher shall not accept for publication advertisements that are worded or phrased to give the reader impressions that the Department of the Air Force in any way endorses, guarantees or sponsors any product or service. Section 4, line "k" states that the editorial staff will review advertisements to identify any that are contrary to law, Air Force or Department of Defense instructions, or that may pose a danger or detriment to Air Force members or their families, or that interfere or detract from the command or the installation's mission. Based on results of Project Blue Book, it is clearly not within our scope to publish material contrary to the government interest. Thanks for your consideration. Requests for copies of records and general information about Project Blue Book should be sent to: Modern Military Records, National Archives, 8601 Adelphi Rd, College Park, MD 20740-60001, (303) 71307250. If you have any questions, regarding this response, please feel free to contact Maj Patricia A. Traynor, USAFR, Chief Public Affair, 757-764-2018. If the 1 FW/IG can be of any
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:59:02 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:07:02 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Sparks >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:31:14 +0100 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:58:21 EDT >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:42:12 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>>>It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- >>>>level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- >>>>related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue >>>>leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly >>>>contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on >>>>pp. 191-3 of his classic book, the veritable Bible of >>>>critically- sifted Roswell investigative data (2001). It may >>>>interest some of you to know that the TOP SECRET Roswell policy >>>>response also contradicts Redfern's scenario in every respect, >>>>and in fact would be be rendered absurd by his scenario. >>>Can you please tell us all exactly what this policy was and what >>>makes you think it is connected to Roswell and not any other >>>developments of the period >>I already answered that. Reverse everything in Karl's policy >>counteraguments. >This is nonsense, what you are suggesting is that we reconstruct >the document in our own imaginations in contradiction to what >Pflock wrote - i.e. that there was a major defence policy >inaugurated in July 1947 in response to Roswell. You need to read your own writing more carefully. You asked what the "policy was" and I told you I had already answered that. You did _not_ ask for "the" document (as if there was only one, which I never said). I never said there was "a" document, that's a complete misunderstanding of what I wrote - damn few policy inaugurations are based on a single document and certainly none are carried out based on only one document. When the Kennedy Administration followed the Eisenhower Admin in establishing a policy of covert assassination of certain foreign leaders there was very little paper trail, most of what there is consists of hints in extremely sensitive highly classified documents and witness testimonies that had to be extracted with great pressure from a public scandal and controversy. One key document referred to "elimination" of foreign leaders and politically-motivated nitpickers screamed that as long as the actual word "assassination" is never used then their beloved leader is innocent of all complicity. Historians and scientists are not bound by such absurdly high criminal-conviction standards otherwise most history books and scientific journals would be filled with blank pages, as most facts are never even subjected to criminal court processes in the first place.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Roswell UFO Festival From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:09:57 -0400 Subject: Roswell UFO Festival Greetings from UFOroswell.com! Just a friendly update on what's coming up in Roswell. It is time once again for the annual UFO Festival! With great concerts, vendors, lectures and even a play - you won't want to miss this one. Visit our site at: http://www.uforoswell.com for more information. You can also visit our calendar of events to see a more detailed listing at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: -UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:30:43 -0400 Subject: Re: -UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:23 +0000 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >(2) If ever there was an issue in ufology that could be >definitively settled, beyond question it is whether or not the >AA film shows a victim of progeria. Clearly it does not. I heartily disagree with you on this point. Troublingly, the body is consistent with progeria in (at least) the following respects: 1.) Large head with small face and disproportionately large eyes/small nose and sunken, "elderly"-looking jaw. The unusual ears are also entirely consistent with progeria; see the photograph posted at: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com 2.) Absence of readily discernable nipples/navel. 3.) Polydactyly, which is relatively common with genetic defects such as progeria. 4.) Short stature. 5.) Hairlessness. I'm frankly rather amazed at your use of the word "clearly." Either this is a body of an adolescent girl afflicted with progeria or it's an excellent FX simulation of a progeria victim. The odds of hoaxers just happening to include so many traits associated with the disease, if simply trying to construct and "alien," are dismally low. >simple Google search using the one word 'progeria' turns up >ample photos and other evidence to disprove that beyond >question. I've been doing some extensive Google searching. The more I look, the more the AA footage screams "progeria". I even found black and white medical photos of an unclothed child with the disease that could have passed for the being on the examination table; the resemblance is uncanny. I suspect that some of the aversion to progeria as an explanation for the body in the AA can be at least partly attributed to the "gag factor"; no one wants to consider that we're looking at a human, possibly killed in a military experiment. >On the other hand, to my way of thinking the AA film >has no clear or proven connection to the Roswell crash in the >first place, and remains very dubious and suspect as possible >(or even likely) disinformation baloney. I agree. I'm simply proposing that the being depicted is a real human cadaver with a genetic defect. It could have absolutely nothing to do with military testing/Roswell for all I know, although Nick's research suggests a link. >It could be absolutely 'real' (i.e., valid film) of something >significant that has no bearing whatsoever on Roswell. Again, I agree with you. I'm just confounded that progeria is being dismissed without an objective hearing. Could it be that ufology is simply disturbed by the implications? Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Black Vault Approaches 300,000 Government Documents From: John Greenewald - The Black Vault <john.nul> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:37:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:35:33 -0400 Subject: Black Vault Approaches 300,000 Government Documents The Black Vault Approaches 300,000 Government Documents NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - Saturday, June 25, 2005 -- The Congressional Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) closed on September 29, 1995. During its 23-year history, OTA provided Congressional members and committees with analyses of the scientific and technological issues that were increasingly relevant to public policy and legislative action. The public has rarely seen these reports=85 until now! The Black Vault completed the transfer of the entire OTA collection, from the beginning of the agency in 1972, to it=92s shut down in 1995. The 104th Congress voted to withdraw funding for OTA and its full-time staff of 143, and cover only enough to provide a skeleton staff and the amount needed for the agency's final closeout. The reports range from defense issues to critical environmental issues. Some of the more interesting documents include: Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction: Assessing the Risks {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_1/DATA/1993/9341.PDF} (1993) A History of the Department of Defense Federally Funded Research and Development Centers {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_1/DATA/1995/9501.PDF} (1995) The Effects of Nuclear War {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_5/DATA/1979/7906.PDF} (1979) The Efficacy and Cost Effectiveness of Psychotherapy {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_5/DATA/1980/8020.PDF} (1980) U.S.-Russian Cooperation in Space {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_1/DATA/1995/9546.PDF} (1995) NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications: Process, Priorities and Goals {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_1/DATA/1992/9227.PDF} (1992) Orbiting Debris: A Space Environmental Problem {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_2/DATA/1990/9033.PDF} (1990) Round Trip to Orbit: Human Spaceflight Alternatives {http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ota/Ota_2/DATA/1989/8927.PDF} (1989) There are hundreds of reports that will spark interest in almost anyone. These records were sold by the U.S. Government Printing Office (GPO) at one time, but during attempts of The Black Vault to purchase the collection, the GPO had no idea where to find it -- and believed it was no longer in their catalog, despite there own website reference: http://www.gpo.gov/ota/ {http://www.gpo.gov/ota/} This collection takes The Black Vault to a total of nearly 300,000 pages of government material. This archive remains, by far, the largest of it=92s kind anywhere in the world. To reach the collection, log on to The Black Vault at: http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article14438.html ------------------------------------------------------ The Black Vault is an online archive which specializes in the archiving and preservation of thousands of documents from the U.S. Government. Subjects range from Defense Issues, Nuclear/Biological/Checmical weapons, UFOs, and much more! John Greenewald, Jr. founded The Black Vault in 1996 at the age of fifteen. Now twenty-four, Greenewald continues the pursuit of government secrecy and the declassification of thousands of documents. Logon to http://www.blackvault.com {http://www.blackvault.com/} to take advantage of this FREE archive -- No registration required! The Black Vault Approaches 300,000 Government Documents NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - Saturday, June 25, 2005 =96 The Congressional Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) closed on September 29, 1995. During its 23-year history, OTA provided Congressional members and committees with analyses of the scientific and technological issues that were increasingly relevant to public policy and legislative action. The public has rarely seen these reports=85 until now! The Black Vault completed the transfer of the entire OTA collection, from the beginning of the agency in 1972, to it=92s shut down in 1995. The 104th Congress voted to withdraw funding for OTA and its full-time staff of 143, and cover only enough to provide a skeleton staff and the amount needed for the agency's final closeout. The reports range from defense issues to critical environmental issues. Some of the more interesting documents include: Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction: Assessing the Risks (1993) A History of the Department of Defense Federally Funded Research and Development Centers (1995) The Effects of Nuclear War (1979) The Efficacy and Cost Effectiveness of Psychotherapy (1980) U.S.-Russian Cooperation in Space (1995) NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications: Process, Priorities and Goals (1992) Orbiting Debris: A Space Environmental Problem (1990) Round Trip to Orbit: Human Spaceflight Alternatives (1989) There are hundreds of reports that will spark interest in almost anyone. These records were sold by the U.S. Government Printing Office (GPO) at one time, but during attempts of The Black Vault to purchase the collection, the GPO had no idea where to find it =96 and believed it was no longer in their catalog, despite there own website reference: http://www.gpo.gov/ota/ This collection takes The Black Vault to a total of nearly 300,000 pages of government material. This archive remains, by far, the largest of it=92s kind anywhere in the world. To reach the collection, log on to The Black Vault at: http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article14438.html ------------------------------------------------------ The Black Vault is an online archive which specializes in the archiving and preservation of thousands of documents from the U.S. Government. Subjects range from Defense Issues, Nuclear/Biological/Checmical weapons, UFOs, and much more! John Greenewald, Jr. founded The Black Vault in 1996 at the age of fifteen. Now twenty-four, Greenewald continues the pursuit of government secrecy and the declassification of thousands of documents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:47:49 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:11:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:01 -0300 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 >>18:00:27 +0000 Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet >>Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>by Santiago Yturria >>A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >>Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >>Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police >>department, newspapers and television reporters and many >>people gathered at Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony >>where the new patrol units wouls be delivered to the police >>department. ><snip> >>On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos >>on their national tv newscast giving the account of the >>unprecedent incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de >>Xalapa newspaper as well as others published on main >>headlines the unusual event under the title: Luminous >>Objects caught the attention during official act. >>Special thanks to Arturo del Moral. >>http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050625/local/3local.asp >Hi Santiago, >Any chance of a vieo clip or some photographs? >Don Ledger Of course that was supposed to be "video". I see that you have posted this to Rense's site, Santiago. That
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:08:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:46:22 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:23 +0000 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>(2) If ever there was an issue in ufology that could be >>definitively settled, beyond question it is whether or not the >>AA film shows a victim of progeria. Clearly it does not. >I heartily disagree with you on this point. Troublingly, the >body is consistent with progeria in (at least) the following >respects: >1.) Large head with small face and disproportionately large >eyes/small nose and sunken, "elderly"-looking jaw. The unusual >ears are also entirely consistent with progeria; see the >photograph posted at: >http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com Do some simple measurements, Mac! The eyeballs in the AA creature are wider than the mouth. This makes their diameter at least double that of a human. Progeria does not produce enlarged eyeballs. Look at the noses on your progeria victims. They are nothing like the nose of the AA creature. Look at the head. The heads of progeria victims are enlarge only slightly, if at all, over normal human measurements. The AA creature's head is massive, necessitating the enlarged musculature of the neck and shoulders, something else that is not seen in progeria. In fact the massive neck musculature is one of the first thing I noticed about the AA creatures. The overall heavily muscled appearance of the AA creature is nothing like the frail, shriveled bodies of progeria sufferers. There is much more, but I don't have the time right now to write a treatise. You are looking, Mac, but you are not seeing. >2.) Absence of readily discernable nipples/navel. Progeria sufferers have nipples and navels, but their unusually thin skin and lack of subcutaneous fat (the AA creatures have plenty of that) make these features difficult to see. The AA creatures clearly lack them. >3.) Polydactyly, which is relatively common with genetic defects >such as progeria. Citations please. >4.) Short stature. So what? Kalahari Bushmen are short, too. I don't hear anyone suggesting the AA creatures are Kalahari Bushmen. >5.) Hairlessness. Again, so what? Alopecia is not that rare. And if the AA creatures are not mammals, I would not expect them to have hair. They appear in general to be neotenous, anyway. >I'm frankly rather amazed at your use of the word "clearly." >Either this is a body of an adolescent girl afflicted with >progeria or it's an excellent FX simulation of a progeria >victim. The odds of hoaxers just happening to include so many >traits associated with the disease, if simply trying to >construct and "alien," are dismally low. I am amazed at your amazement. <snip> >Again, I agree with you. I'm just confounded that progeria is >being dismissed without an objective hearing. Could it be that >ufology is simply disturbed by the implications? Progeria has been dismissed with a fully objective hearing. It just does not fit, and no amount of your shoving is going to get this square peg into that round hole. I'm no more disturbed by the implications of progeria than by the implications of non-human humanoids sharing our space-time here on this third rock from the sun. I considered progeria and did a lot of research on it back in 1995, and concluded that it just does not fit the observed creatures. It's time that this idea was put firmly on the rubbish heap where it belongs so we
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 26 List-Submissions Intended For Nick Redfern From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:02:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:02:04 -0400 Subject: List-Submissions Intended For Nick Redfern A reminder... Some subscribers appear to have missed Nick Redfern's request to hold List-submissions intended for him until his return here, the week of July 4th. Please abide by his request,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:08:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:33:29 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:02:21 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Nick Redfern has failed to establish that any of his new >>revelations or rediscovered facts have anything directly to do >>with the Roswell UFO crash and subsequant recovery operations - >>which also conflict with past reliable eyewitness testimony >>(I have the same video too). >>What Nick has learned or was told may make for an interesting >>speculative book about the many secret activities going on in >>that part of the world shortly after WWII but as for providing >>new clues that will help us to solve or better understand this >>58 year old UFO mystery, he has inadvertantly managed only to >>confuse and thus divert us further from the truth. >I have been following this discussion with some amusement, having recently posted the "Hawk Tales" (no longer "exempt from disclosure.") Bruce and all, Thank you very much for communicating the interesting conversations "Hawk Tales", that you had with an anonymous officer. At http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales Until the wall of secrecy falls down (will that be thanks to ufological trumpets ?), we can already learn a lot by reading documents like this one. I must confess I had a little difficulty, half way through it, because there was a second "Bob" appearing and I was a bit confused, but it is soon clarified. The first Bob is Robert Collins, and the second one a friend of "Hawk" by the name of Col. Robert Hippler, who apparently played an important role in secret UFO studies. Your text tends to corroborate the book of Collins and Doty, at least
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:16:19 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:35:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A >Source: San Francisco Chronicle - San Francisco >http://tinyurl.com/786xv >Sunday, June 26, 2005 >Ten Things You Should Do If You Encounter A UFO >by >Michael Curta <snip> >1. The No.1 thing to remember is REMAIN CALM! But protect >yourself from any hazards real or perceived. Be prepared to take >evasive (but not aggressive) action to get out of its way. >Remember: You might be witnessing the event of a lifetime and >will want to remember every detail. You can't do that if you are >hysterical. But after the sighting, you can spend the rest of your life trying to learn more about what it was, where it came from, and why the hell they are all here. >2. Be objective. Not every UFO is extraterrestrial. Eliminate >every other possibility (within your means) first. Only after >that should you consider the possibility that what you saw might >be a true UFO. Just make sure it is not a bird or a balloon. >3.Use a camcorder or camera to record the event. Try to keep >reference points in the field of view, as this will aid >researchers in analyzing the film. If you do not have a camera >or camcorder, draw pictures of what you saw and the area around >it. Try not to give the UFO debunkers any more reason than necessary to explain away what you saw. They are already too stressed and tend to stray from an objective approach in examining UFO data. And make sure the video/picture doesn't look like a bird or a balloon. <snip> >9. Should you encounter some type of extraterrestrial being >associated with the craft, be prepared to take evasive action to >protect yourself. From a safe distance, in a concealed position, >photograph or videotape the being. If you are unable to safely >get photos of the being, draw it and write down a description as >soon as it is safe to do so. Don't automatically assume the 'being' is extraterrestrial, assume it is an intruder from 'somewhere' and then get the hell out of there. If it (they) are short and gray, don't worry too much if you don't get a photo/video, you will probably encounter them again. They will choose a place and time of their convenience...and they will find you! If they look like us, don't let them talk too much or intrude your mind with telepathic babble. More than likely, it will be a bunch of BS. >10. Immediately report the event to a UFO research organization >for investigation. There are several such organizations around >the world. The Mutual UFO Network is the largest and most noted >of these organizations, with investigators in all 50 states and >around the world. But stay away from groups that endorse books such as THE ALLIES OF HUMANITY.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:41:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:55:39 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Lehmberg >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:20:49 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:49:12 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:25:47 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:30:44 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:37:46 -0500 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Gildas, >>Thank you for you appreciation of my work. In turn, I can >>tell you that you IUR is the best one that I know. But do you >>realize how many papers, that you published over the years in >>IUR, are in total contradiction with the Redfern story? And how >>strongly they point to a UFO crash recovery? >Yes, at one time I was disposed to the conclusion that the >Roswell incident was a UFO case. For some time, though, I have >been less and less certain of that, while also being skeptical >of the Mogul explanation for all the reasons Roswell proponents, >including yourself, have cited. >I defer further comment till I read Redfern's book next week. With all respect to Mr. Bourdais, and realizing that he only speculates a debate down this path and is not running down it, headlong, I'm irritated more and more with criticisms with regard to, "...Oh, but you said _this_ 'then'...! In 1992 and on the heels of military retirement... and on my first writing assignment in a college writing course, I wrote a paper on an inadvisability... with regard to the inclusion of homosexuals in the United States armed forces. I'm putting a good face on this... my personal revulsion was not all that concealed. For a time, I commanded a service school in a very successful military, I thought I knew what I was talking about. My convictions were 'firm'. I was quite proud of the finished draft... indeed I'd though I'd nailed it. 'Queers' had no business in the otherwise entirely moral activities of a US military force. Alexander was merely an exception that proved the _rule_. Heavy sigh. Ten years later and after the accumulation of all manners of new information... scientific, anecdotal, non-participatory experiential (No apologies... I'm just not naturally wired that way), educational, philosophical, and communicational... I found that I could not be more _opposed_ to my very personally held previous convictions. Indeed it's the only paper I wrote of which I am ashamed. Now, I don't just tolerate a homosexual lifestyle. I celebrate the intelligent pursuit of it. This attitudinal about face seems to hinge on the assimilation new information, even if it's uncomfortable at the start. Later on, a loss of needless and unsupported baggage makes life far sweeter. I've found I can celebrate many heresies. More as time goes on. Only a brain-dead fool and insipient idiot is going to call me a flip-flopper when new info, worked into the appropriate social equation, _demands_ a cognitive social course change. Only a mechanist and reactionary _cockroach_ is going to insist on a traditional conviction when there is new information to be used efficaciously in the equation. The universe _is_ change. UFOs are not immune. Not using new information, or _not_ freely admitting error when you know you're wrong is insanity incarnate. There _are_ relativisms, moral and otherwise or we'd still be penalized for storing meat and milk together, beating our daughters to death with a rock for getting pregnant out of wedlock, or consigned to hell everlasting for unrepentantly eating meat on Friday. There _are_ ebbs and flows in the quality of ufological support...(I mean, look at the evidentiary _climate_ for Christ's sake!) but the overriding, _if_ passionately protested or denied, ufological impetus... is the _reality_ of UFOs, finally... not the _unreality_ of same. Roswell is not the pillar of Ufology the skeptibunkies would have it be. No one case is that. A prosaic (Good... God... but that that is "prosaic"...) Roswell does not make UFOs go away. And we should all further encourage "Montezuma" to spear the Spaniards wading ashore who operate as if to say so. Truth is grease, as I wrote earlier, and its judgment is _blind_ with regard to the directions with which it can get things to slide. New information is new ideas promoting _evolutions_ in judgment, or surgeons wouldn't wash their hands before they operated. I'll take the 'truth' about Gods, Nations, Families, and a reality of UFOs as it comes. I'll let truth appropriately change any conviction I have, and know improvement... if the last ten years is any judge... live a life of _increasing_ quality. Changelessness and inflexible rigidity is death, and even error is a 'step up' if discovered then corrected. Let's be more mindful of changing conditions and the evolution they should be working on our changing convictions. Adapt and overcome. Adapt and improve. Adapt and thrive. The antithesis is spiritual, intellectual, and physical death.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:15:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:57:30 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rogerson >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:59:02 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:31:14 +0100 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:58:21 EDT >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:42:12 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:33:39 EDT >>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>>>>It was only after accidentally stumbling onto a TOP SECRET high- >>>>>level policy response to Roswell while doing completely non-UFO- >>>>>related research in Dec 2000 that I have been able to pursue >>>>>leads but without any resources. This evidence utterly >>>>>contradicts Karl Pflock's policy arguments against Roswell on >>>>>pp. 191-3 of his classic book, the veritable Bible of >>>>>critically- sifted Roswell investigative data (2001). It may >>>>>interest some of you to know that the TOP SECRET Roswell policy >>>>>response also contradicts Redfern's scenario in every respect, >>>>>and in fact would be be rendered absurd by his scenario. >>>>Can you please tell us all exactly what this policy was and what >>>>makes you think it is connected to Roswell and not any other >>>>developments of the period >>>I already answered that. Reverse everything in Karl's policy >>>counteraguments. >>This is nonsense, what you are suggesting is that we reconstruct >>the document in our own imaginations in contradiction to what >>Pflock wrote - i.e. that there was a major defence policy >>inaugurated in July 1947 in response to Roswell. >You need to read your own writing more carefully. You asked >what the "policy was" and I told you I had already answered that. >You did _not_ ask for "the" document (as if there was only one, >which I never said). >I never said there was "a" document, that's a complete >misunderstanding of what I wrote - damn few policy inaugurations >are based on a single document and certainly none are carried >out based on only one document. When the Kennedy Administration >followed the Eisenhower Admin in establishing a policy of covert >assassination of certain foreign leaders there was very little >paper trail, most of what there is consists of hints in >extremely sensitive highly classified documents and witness >testimonies that had to be extracted with great pressure from a >public scandal and controversy. >One key document referred to "elimination" of foreign leaders >and politically-motivated nitpickers screamed that as long as >the actual word "assassination" is never used then their beloved >leader is innocent of all complicity. Historians and scientists >are not bound by such absurdly high criminal-conviction >standards otherwise most history books and scientific journals >would be filled with blank pages, as most facts are never even >subjected to criminal court processes in the first place. >I will continue to comment on matters as I see fit until and >after publication of my research. I don't see anyone complaining >that Redfern (or any other Roswell author) refused to give away >the goods _before_ his book was published. Then what is your evidence and what exactly was the TOP SECRET policy (the capitals surely hint at a document or documents with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:16:10 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:59:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Miller >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:12:07 +0200 >Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:31:44 EDT >>Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:25:31 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Some Roswell Thoughts <snip> >I am intrigued by this strange opinion on Brazil, and I wonder >what it has to do with the discussion on the Redfern book. To >me, it looks like a very valuable advance has been achieved by >Brazilian ufologists, who have been officialy greeted at the >Air Force headquarters. I don't see any relation there with >our discussion on Roswell. Unless, attempts are made now to >cast doubt on this Brazilian advance? >>>I think some of you will be ahead of me by now but, is it a >>>coincidence that one week we get a major story from a >>>country with a strong allegiance to the United States with > >>stories of aliens running amok in the Amazon Basin and two > >>weeks later we get a story that arguably collapses one of >>>the principle alien related cases of the genre, with a >>>possible domino effect on the rest of the subject? >Could you clarify? Do you suppose that the Brazilian Air Force >would be participating in a UFO debunking campaign, together >with their American counterparts? I remind you that the events >in the Nord Este of Brazil have been already well investigated >and documented. The Air Force is merely confirming and >completing previous informations. They are not really >revealing new, sensational, stories of "aliens running amok >in the Amazon Basin". Gildas, You were getting my original post mixed up with Greg's reply. Without wishing to detract for one moment from the excellent work and tireless efforts of our colleagues in Brazil, in the true spirit of the current streak of paranoia that I now firmly and ardently embrace, is it not strange that these two extremely contrasting stories should emerge so close together? When, in quick succession, I have read Greg Bishop's book, Robert Collins' book and now Nick's book, I find it impossible afterwards to take anything at face value anymore. I suspect the evil and dark hand of American counter intelligence behind all and everything. Why, Gildas, even the fact that you have chosen to question me
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rosati From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:20:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:02:15 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Rosati Since one theory is that the "aliens" are actually humans from the future, coming back to attempt genetic manipulation in order to prevent some kind of problem in their time-line, maybe the future problem is universal progeria! In the future, becuase of careless genetic manipulation over generations, humanity starts aging rapidly, so they all start looking like they have progeria. So they come back to try and resplice some DNA to prevent it, hence all the breeding elements in abductions. Maybe the Nordics are a branch of humanity that left earth for other colonies before the problem started, but eventually came back to help, so they accompany the grays on their time travel expeditions. And, since the US gov. has known about this since the 40's, there's no doubt that contemporary progeria victims would be needed for study - hence the AA film! But this doesn't explain the insectoids or reptoids though... hmmm. Anyway, there's bound to be a book on all of this, the only
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Texas State Trooper's Sighting From: Peter Arvanitis <peter.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:31:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:08:27 -0400 Subject: Texas State Trooper's Sighting Source: National UFO Reporting Center http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/042/S42239.html Occurred : 1/15/1993 22:30 (Entered as : 01/15/1993 22:30) Reported: 2/24/2005 8:10:24 PM 20:10 Posted: 5/24/2005 Location: Canadian, TX Shape: Triangle Duration:15 minutes It was triangular in shape, massive in size and eerily quiet. I was a State Trooper working the night shift and was patrolling US83 south of Canadian, TX. It was around 10:30PM local time. I always had a citizens band radio on and had been listening to two truck drivers enjoying a conversation. It was an unusually warm evening for a winter night and I was wearing short sleeves and had the car window cracked a bit as I slowly patrolled northbound. As this is the Texas panhandle area, the land is fairly flat, but with some rolling hills every so often. I could see the two trucks ahead of me and all three of us were driving north. The two trucks were approximately 1 - 1.5 miles ahead of me. As we neared the Washita Creek bridge on US83, the road dipped down into a little valley. I lost sight of the trucks as they dipped lower than me. One of the drivers was talking away when he suddenly stopped and said "What the hell is that"? I heard the second driver say "What are you...oh hell!". The radio was silent for a few seconds and then I heard the second trucker say "I nearly ran into you when you stopped. Are you pulling over?" To which the other trucker said "Hell yes...I want to see it". By this time I was starting down the incline toward the creek and I could see one truck stopped and on the side of the road and the other pulling past it to park in front of it. I still didn't know what they were talking about but started slowing down. I crossed the bridge and at that point I saw the driver of the truck just in front of me standing in the middle of US83. He was looking west and upward. This was the first time that I realized a very bright light was shining onto the ground from what appeared to be a very large dark object which seemed to be about 1,000 feet in the air and maybe a mile and a half away. I remember thinking this because I'd been down the dirt road that runs from this location west and was fairly familiar with the topography here...and I could make out it was over another hill. I was afraid I'd be run over from behind so I started to park my patrol car on the shoulder beside the first truck. I could see the second driver running to the first one and pointing at the object. At this point, a small passenger car topped the hill just north of us and started slowing down...probably from seeing the two trucks and my car parked there. But as the car passed by I saw the brake lights come on and the car slightly screeched to a stop right in the middle of the south-bound lane. There was a female driver and she stepped out of her car, right foot still inside but standing outside the car, and was looking at the object. I asked her to quickly move out of the road. She turned to me and said "What is that?" I told her I didn't know, but to please move. She did so quickly and then came back to us. Now there were the two truckers, the lady and myself standing on the shoulder of the southbound lane. I couldn't hear a sound from the craft but could see a immensely bright beam of light shining straight down. The light didn't sway back and forth like a search light or anything...it just shone straight down. Suddenly I was aware of the fact that the object appeared to be moving toward us very slowly. This was because I realized the sheer dimensions of the craft. It was a moonless night..or as best as I can remember it was moonless. Thousands of stars in a totally black sky made it very easy to see that the object was indeed moving toward us. It was triangular in shape. That was obvious almost from the start. The point was forward as if you'd imagine a triangle being mobile and one of the points being the front of the object. (I hope that makes sense) There was absolutely no sound coming from the craft. Not even a whisper. I realized no one was talking... I think we were completely confounded by what we were seeing. After around five minutes, the object had gotten to a point that I felt it was within a mile of us. I still had the strong sensation that it was higher above us than it appeared. That's when the bright light simply shut off and it was easier to see the outline of the craft. The mere size of the craft was incredible. If my references are even near what I think they are, I'd estimate the size of the craft to be at least 1000' per side. It was massive. The reason I use this word is two fold. One is from the dimensions of it. But the other is this. As the craft neared being almost directly over us, I remember feeling weight... felt something heavy on me. It also seemed as if there was a haze around the object...just barely off of the surface that seemed to make the stars near the edge flicker before they were occulted by the object itself. I also remember realizing I was holding my breath. And although we couldn't hear anything, one of the truckers said, "Do y'all feel that?" It felt as though everything, the road, the air, us... everything seemed to be vibrating. Up to this point, I don't think what I felt was fear... just amazement. But when the craft was directly over us, something happened. I was staring straight up at it, and I remember at this point that the women started sobbing and ran away to her car. She left before I ever said another word to her. The object was black. Much blacker than the sky. This may have been an illusion from all the stars in the background, but it was darker to me. But as I looked up, I suddenly saw a circle appear...just forward of what would be the center of the object. This circle didn't light up. It became darker... as if there was absolutely no light shining from it or reflected from it. Without a doubt it was darker than the rest of the craft. The craft literally stopped directly above us. One of the drivers asked me if I should call for help. I told him I didn't know what I'd say. The thought did cross my mind, but I was thinking they'd be thinking I was crazy back at the Sheriff's Office. The craft then started pivoting above us...with the point moving clockwise in relation to me until it was pointed in a generally north-west direction. Then it began moving again. I remember hearing one of the truckers talking, but my ears felt as if they were going to pop. Again, there wasn't a sound from it... but a tremendous feeling of weight or pressure... sort of like when you dive deeply into the water. That kind of feeling. As the craft moved off slowly, one of the drivers said something about driving to the top of the next hill to see it more clearly. He started to turn away and at that moment the craft sped up noticeably, then shot off to the northwest in a matter of 3-4 seconds. The drivers asked me what we should do and I told them I didn't know. I don't know what we saw, what we experienced. One of the drivers, the one that said he wanted to see it from the hilltop, ran to his truck and drove north. I ran to my patrol car and got in, passed him on the way north and pulled over at the top of the rise. We all got out again but couldn't see anything. I remember my ears were ringing like mad. Looking back, I think this was side effects of an adrenaline rush. I've been in shootings, high- speed pursuits and numerous other tension-filled moments and I always have that reaction. After some time, we all got in our vehicles and left. I went straight home. I undressed and took a shower. I still could see the object in my mind... and am absolutely convinced about the darker circle inside the craft. I then sat down at my desk in the study and sketched out the craft on a piece of paper. I then went into my bedroom where my wife was asleep. As I lay down, she rolled over to kiss me goodnight but stopped and asked "Have you been fighting a grass fire or something?" I said no and asked why. She told me I smelled like burned grass or hair. I told her what I'd seen just an hour earlier. She knew I was sincere. The next morning, I got out of bed and walked into the bathroom. As I looked in the mirror, I saw that my face looked like I had a very light sunburn. Not deep red... just a little blushed. I looked down and most of the hair on both arms looked as if I'd been synged with a flame. I called my wife and she came in and gasped at how I looked. We looked in the bed and there was a mass of burned hair on my pillow and the sheets. I say burned... I mean it was very brittle and it and I still smelled like I'd been fighting a fire. That was 12 years ago. I still see it in my mind and I sometimes dream about it. I've never told anyone other than my dearest and most trusted friends. I have no doubt that what I saw was real. I have no doubt that it was huge, it was manned, and it was being intelligently operated. I'm not assuming anything... that it was an alien craft, a military craft or whatever. But what I saw moved with great stealth when I first saw it and was able to reach an unbelievably high speed in the blink of an eye. So... as you're reading this, you may think I'm nuts. But this is the single-most bizarre thing I've ever experienced, and I'm absolutely convinced it was real. ((NUFORC Note: Witness indicates that date of sighting is approximate. We have responded to the report, and hope to be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:34:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:41:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:47:49 -0300 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 >>18:00:27 +0000 Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet >>Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>by Santiago Yturria >>A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >>Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >>Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police >>department, newspapers and television reporters and many >>people gathered at Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony >>where the new patrol units wouls be delivered to the police >>department. ><snip> >>On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos >>on their national tv newscast giving the account of the >>unprecedent incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de >>Xalapa newspaper as well as others published on main >>headlines the unusual event under the title: Luminous >>Objects caught the attention during official act. >>Special thanks to Arturo del Moral. >>http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050625/local/3local.asp >Any chance of a vieo clip or some photographs? >Don Ledger >Of course that was supposed to be "video". >I see that you have posted this to Rense's site, Santiago. >That article shows newspaper photos of people looking up. But >no photos of unusual objects. What's up? This massive sighting from Xalapa is causing much comment here in Mexico due to it's unique nature involving police officials, goverment staff and the governor Fidel Herrera himself - plus the media. All of them witnessed one of the much talked UFO flotillas in an unprecedented event for Mexican Ufology. Governor Herrera Beltran humourously said into the microphone, "The Martians have arrived!" - a reference to the popular Latin Cha-Cha song and then he counted the UFOs saying: "One, two - thirteen, fourteen." It was a moment of excitement and surprise, definitelly not in the program of this official event. There were several videos shot - including the TV Azteca news footage which I have in the TV newscast report, and Arturo del Moral from Xalapa is sending me several videos from the people and police officers. The report by El Diario de Xalapa newspaper didn't publish photos of the UFOs even though they took many photographs along with other newspapers. They decided just to show photos of the amazed police officers and the surprised governor looking at the sky.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:35:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:44:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:47:49 -0300 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul>To: >>>ufoupdates.nul Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 >>>18:00:27 +0000 Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet >>>Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>>Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>>by Santiago Yturria >>>A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >>>Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >>>Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police >>>department, newspapers and television reporters and many >>>people gathered at Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony >>>where the new patrol units wouls be delivered to the police >>>department. >><snip> >>>On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos >>>on their national tv newscast giving the account of the >>>unprecedent incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de >>>Xalapa newspaper as well as others published on main >>>headlines the unusual event under the title: Luminous >>>Objects caught the attention during official act. >>>Special thanks to Arturo del Moral. >>>http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050625/local/3local.asp >>Hi Santiago, >>Any chance of a vieo clip or some photographs? >>Don Ledger >Of course that was supposed to be "video". >I see that you have posted this to Rense's site, Santiago. That >article shows newspaper photos of people looking up. But no >photos of unusual objects. What's up? Hi Don: I heard you briefly on Coast to Coast being interviewed by LMH! As for the Xalapa sighting, I don't have Santiago's original message, but I think I recall that he indicated a trio of lights in triangle formation. There was no mention of maneuvers, instead the trio moved slowly if at all, and was seen for quite a while. This suggests (for me at least) NOSS satellites or similar, i.e. ocean surveillance spy satellites which are deployed in triangular formation. http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/nro_preview_010906.html The Russians put up something similar for "navigation purposes" .. http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/proton_launch_031210.html while China and Brazil cooperated on another trio: http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-07/23/content_247651.htm and India sent up yet another: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0110/22pslv/ Google lists 91,800 web pages for just the words trio + satellites (no quotes) so there's no lack of information. Add the 3 words visible + naked + eye, and this drops to only 23,000 pages, the second of which is here: http://www.eclipsetours.com/sat/class.html and includes 2 or 3 photos.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Baiata From: Maurizio Baiata <maurizio.baiata.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:23:06 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:49:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Baiata I might add something to this thread. Just happened to watch on the Italian Sky satellite platform a very interesting documentary entitled "Unit 731 - Nightmare in Manchuria" broadcast last night by History Channel. Surely some of our colleagues on the List must have noticed it, since History Channel is well received all over, by cable or sat. It is a 1999 Termite Productions documentary, gripping and well packed with archival images and actual interviews. The narration and the eyewitnesses interviews strongly denounce this horrible page in the history of Japan, aiming to a better knowledge of the hidden facts and knockin' on the doors of consciousness of Japanese citizens today. They do not know about the crimes of Unit 731, the majority of the Japanese still believe that they were never the aggressors, but the victims of the nuclear holocaust. Many of the Chinese familiars of victims of the Harbin compound are asking for justice now. They are requesting that Japan address an official apology and some refund or indemnity. They're also asking the Americans to clarify their role in this terrible tragedy. Seems the US Govt. is somehow not embarrassed about their claustrophobic attitude to remove and go ahead. And now we have Nick Redfern reminding us of many things about Unit 731..... As far as me, I'm just waiting to read the book, and watching the History Channel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:53:56 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:08:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >>I heartily disagree with you on this point. >>Troublingly, the body is consistent with progeria in (at least) >>the following respects: >>1.) Large head with small face and disproportionately large >>eyes/small nose and sunken, "elderly"-looking jaw. The unusual >>ears are also entirely consistent with progeria; see the >>photograph posted at: >>http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com >Do some simple measurements, Mac! The eyeballs in the AA >creature are wider than the mouth. This makes their diameter at >least double that of a human. Progeria does not produce enlarged >eyeballs. Mouths are flexible. When a person speaks -- or screams or yodels or puckers or whatever -- the shape of his or her mouth changes. The "creature" in the autopsy is clearly expressing what, subjectively at least, looks like shock or surprise, hence a vertical elongation of the mouth (respective to the face). More simply: The eyes are *not* inhumanly large. They are, however, quite typical of progeria. Doubt it? Run a Google image search. Or see the example currently featured on my weblog. >Look at the noses on your progeria victims. They are >nothing like the nose of the AA creature. Progeria is often accompanied by a small nose. In fact, it's one of the identifying traits. There are plenty of small-nosed progeriatrics. >Look at the head. The heads of progeria victims are enlarge >only slightly, if at all, over normal human measurements. The key word here is "normal." The head is precisely what we see in cases of progeria - up to and including the shape. (Again, the odds of an alien dummy or a nonhuman creature just happening to exhibit this similarity would seem extraordinarily low.) >The AA creature's head is massive, necessitating the enlarged >musculature of the neck and shoulders, something else that is not >seen in progeria. I think the "enlarged musculature" can be explained by rigor mortis, which afflicts "fresh" corpses for 72 hours. See: http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm If the being in the AA was an experimental test subject, it stands to reason that it would be dissected as shortly after the experiment as possible in order to accurately assess biological effects -- in this case, possibly but by no means certainly due to radiation exposure. >In fact the massive neck musculature is one of the first >thing I noticed about the AA creatures. Progeria "shrink wraps," to varying degrees, the skin, which has the effect of highlighting the underlying musculature. The neck isn't nearly as buff as it appears from above; in fact, it looks suspiciously spindly in side-views. >There is much more, but I don't have the time right now to write >a treatise. No, no - if there's "much more," I want to hear it. Give me the treatise. Better yet, give all of us this treatise. >You are looking, Mac, but you are not seeing. You're thinking, Bob, but you're not thinking critically. >>2.) Absence of readily discernable nipples/navel. >Progeria sufferers have nipples and navels, but their unusually >thin skin and lack of subcutaneous fat (the AA creatures have >plenty of that) make these features difficult to see. I rather suspect that's precisely why they're so "difficult to see" in the autopsy. And the cadaver does not have "plenty" of subdermal fat. Ironically, debunkers hace seized on the obvious lack of it as evidence that the AA can't be "real." >>3.) Polydactyly, which is relatively common with genetic defects >>such as progeria. >Citations please. Polydactyly is (relatively) common with people afflicted by seemingly unrelated genetic syndromes. I didn't realize this until I started online medical literature. Do you mean to say you haven't done the same, yet have the confidence to accuse me of "not seeing"? >Progeria has been dismissed with a fully objective >hearing. I don't think the hearing has even begun, based on the ignorance of its symptoms I've encountered (here and elsewhere). Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Xalapa's Newspaper Attempts To Debunk UFO Sighting From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:05:46 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:44:34 -0400 Subject: Xalapa's Newspaper Attempts To Debunk UFO Sighting UPDATE - Xalapa's Newspaper Attempts To Debunk UFO Sighting by Santiago Yturria Last Friday's June 24 UFO sighting over Xalapa has continued causing stir among the local residents and the Mexican ufologic circles due to the nature of the event that took Xalapa=B4s society, local authorities including governor Fidel Herrera Beltran himself, by surprise. The incident was reported by Xalapa's newspapers and TV Azteca on the national television newscast. Their images, video-taped during the official event coverage, have been shown on subsequent newscast editions by their affiliates nationwide. According to the media the incident remains unexplained. Today, in a short article in theEl Diario de Xalapa newspaper tried to discount the sighting saying that the objects in the sky were just balloons, released by some kids on Friday morning. El Diario mentioned a single witness as their information source, a seven-year old girl named as "Adriana", a student at a local school, who said some kids released balloons that morning. This statement could not be confirmed by the school's principal or by the teachers or students. Assuming this is a lone testimonial it should be investigated further to determine it's validity, however this kid " Adriana " has not been located yet by the researchers. It's important to take note of some considerations regarding this story and the implications of the different strata witnesses involved. Besides there are enough materials in video and testimonials to be evaluated as evidence in this investigation and determine the real nature of the event. Different from most common UFO sightings in Mexico witnessed by the people, this particular incident was witnessed by a governor and his staff, police department officials and media representatives so we can assume this was, indeed, an 'official' sighting. Then we may wonder if it was posible that these local authorities, along with the media were just " fooled " by a bunch of balloons, interrupting an official ceremony converting the formal act into a whole "Fiesta" among the joy and excitement of the people gathered there. The police are trained, experienced officers in matters of recognition. The television people react, most of the time, objectively to this type of sighting incident. All of them reacted with surprise at the phenomena and couldn't give any plausible explanation for it. Now the Diario de Xalapa's reporter comes up with a single witness, a kid who said they were balloons, implying all the people at Casa Veracruz were fooled on Friday June 24. Could this be posible? Seems unlikely. More research must be done. There are some facts that still have to be answered or explained by that reporter during the course of his investigation and as a consequence of his article. Definitively, the most compelling is the length of the sighting, from 10:30 AM to almost 11:00 AM. Questioned how it was posible for a bunch of balloons to remain in that position in the sky for almost 30 minutes, without changing it's pattern. The question was not answered. Its interesting that Governor Fidel Herrera Beltran, after some minutes into the sighting, continued reviewing the new police patrol units while the attention of the people was divided from the official act and the UFO spectacle. Sometime later, Governor Herrera returned to the stage and looking again to the sky and realized the UFOs were still there. Then he took the microphone again and began counting the objects: "One, two - Thirteen, fourteen..." to the smiles of the people. Quite a unique reaction if those were common ballons. This incident will continue to be discussed for sometime and also create a controversy. There are, at this time, several lines of investigation, including an official one. The case is certainly recent and rich in material to be studied and evaluated in order to reach a satisfactory conclusion - if any. What we can confirm at this stage is the definite awareness among the Mexican people of this phenomena and their positive reaction confronting these sightings. Now the Mexican authorities are also involved in these strange events, witnessing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:44:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:54:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:00:27 +0000 >Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >by Santiago Yturria >A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police department, >newspapers and television reporters and many people gathered at >Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony where the new patrol >units wouls be delivered to the police department. >The surprising incident took place at 10:30 AM causing >commotion, excitement and certain alarm amont the people and >officials. Just after governor Fidel Herrera Beltran made a >speech inagurating the new units and during an inspection of a >new patrol his attention was called by his officials signaling >to the sky where a strange spectacle was appearing. >A spectacular UFO fleet of at least 14 unkown flying objects >captured the attention of all the people gathered at casa >Veracruz who signaling to the sky screamed OVNIs, OVNIs !! in an >agitated state of excitement. The police officers were also >signaling to the sky wondering what these unknown flying obJects >could be. >Diferent reactions were heard from surprise, curiosity, >disconcert and even some laughs among the people who continue >shouting OVNIs !! The newspaper reporters were taking photos and >the television crew recording the unusual spectacle. Governor >Fidel Herrera Beltran took the microphone and said joking: It >seems the martians have arrived !! >The people wondered if the strange objects could be balloons of >some kind or in fact real UFOs like those so many times reported >over Mexico. However the engimatic flying objects remained >almost static in the sky in formation describing a triangle >pattern in perfect alignement for almost 30 minutes, time enough >for the incident to be videotaped by the media and some persons >from the audience. >On Friday night TV Azteca presented the report with videos on >their national tv newscast giving the account of the unprecedent >incident. On Saturday June 25 the Diario de Xalapa newspaper as >well as others published on main headlines the unusual event >under the title: Luminous Objects caught the attention during >Special thanks to Arturo del Moral. >http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050625/local/3local.asp Dear Errol, List: Please excuse the length of this post. Readers should compare Santiago's version of Friday's events with the claim posted by the same newspaper at: http://www.diariodexalapa.com.mx/050626/local/5local.asp Roughly translated, the article says: "Globes sent by children, supposed "ufos" JAIR GARCIA the supposed ufos that Friday in the morning assured to see several people at the end of an event of the governor Fidel Herrera Beltr=E1n, were, as they said it most cautious, metallic globes. She was a girl of seven years of age, Adriana name, the School Pierre Feure, by the course of Maver, that spoke to this writing to comment that in his school it is accustomed that when finalizing the scholastic year globes inflated with gas take that loosen to the sky like a way to dismiss their companions of sixth which they leave the school. And it was indeed Friday in the morning when an act was made to let go to the sky globes, with which it leaves in clear that they were simple globes which saw the morning of Friday in the sky xalape=F1o and although so=F1adores they thought and perhaps still they create that it was ufos "that were seeing us", because it was not thus." After reading Santiago's post, I began wondering why it seems like we only hear from certain people representing Mexico on this list and it's usually the same 'breathtaking', amazing, sensationalist stories about "fleets of OVNI's" invading Mexico (except for one or two individuals). I wondered if someone in Xalapa had released a bunch of balloons or watched a balloon release on Friday morning then read the article in the Diario de Xalapa newspaper or saw the report on TV Azteca, would they call the TV station or newspaper to report the truth. Further, would the newspaper or TV station bother to report these additional claims? I followed the link in Santiago's original post, clicked on the home site for the newspaper and searched the headlines for any follow-up reports (I don't speak or read Spanish but I know the word "OVNI" and "globos"). Indeed there was another report referring to Friday's incident indicating the sighting was due to a balloon release Friday morning by a group of school children.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: Roswell UFO Festival - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:38:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:56:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Festival - Hebert >From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:57:33 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Roswell UFO Festival >Greetings from UFOroswell.com! >Just a friendly update on what's coming up in Roswell. >It is time once again for the annual UFO Festival! With great >concerts, vendors, lectures and even a play - you won't want to >miss this one. If Nick Redfern's assumptions are correct, what, then, will become of Roswell, New Mexico? Will they hold annual Progeria Festivals or trials for crimes against humanity? I'm not into the Roswell myths - either way - except to ask the same questions I always ask myself, "Why now? What does this mean? Who are the players, who are the pawns? How does this fit in the overall picture of UFO's and ufology?" And one more question....What happens next? Keep your eye on the ball.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:16:55 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:59:20 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gonzalez >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:44:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:23 +0000 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>(2) If ever there was an issue in ufology that could be >>definitively settled, beyond question it is whether or not the >>AA film shows a victim of progeria. Clearly it does not. <snip> >I'm no more disturbed by the implications of progeria than by >the implications of non-human humanoids sharing our space-time >here on this third rock from the sun. I considered progeria and >did a lot of research on it back in 1995, and concluded that it >just does not fit the observed creatures. It's time that this >idea was put firmly on the rubbish heap where it belongs so we >can get on with trying to figure out what really is shown in >that film footage. Just three questions to anybody who cares to answer: 1) Has been "the cameraman" clearly and definitely identified and his credentials cheked? 2) Has the film footage clearly and definitely dated? If the answer to any of this two questions is no, I cannot understand how any serious ufologist bothers to even consider the film as a valuable evidence. Besides, since I first saw it, eight years ago in Edimburgh, one thing nobody has ever commented has always bother me. According to the cameraman, the footage was just the part that was left behind in a burocratical mishap over the new Air Force organization. This would be barely understandable if there were different short "cuts" of various durations discarded during the development. But, as I remember it, the footage shows an almost complete sequence of events. Has anybody timed the footage and also the missed parts (if possible)? We are talking about allegedly the most important document in human history, the autopsy of the very first alien... and his defenders want to convince us that nobody cheked the material received and noticed the missing parts. Remember, "they" _did_ know the name of the cameraman, so they could reclaim him the missing footage as soon as noticed. Allegedly there was only one cameraman and film (something scarcely believeable for an on- scene job at the accident site, but completely absurd for a posterior documentation of an autopsy in a controled scenario such as a hospital or similar. They bothered to get some anti- contamination suits but no more cameras or colour films) and after all those complications, the militar discovered they did not get the autopsy on film... and did not cared to reclaim it!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 27 NASA Space Protection UFOs? From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:46 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:03:28 -0400 Subject: NASA Space Protection UFOs? The inflatable Loony Balloony space protection umbrella :-) Don't miss reading this it will make your hair stand on end; http://tinyurl.com/cp6w9 The construction may later be mistaken for UFO clusters especially if used in near space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:49:48 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:47:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:35:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico <snip> >I see that you have posted this to Rense's site, Santiago. That >article shows newspaper photos of people looking up. But no >photos of unusual objects. What's up? >As for the Xalapa sighting, I don't have Santiago's original >message, but I think I recall that he indicated a trio of >lights in triangle formation. >There was no mention of maneuvers, instead the trio >moved >slowly if at all, and was seen for quite a while. >This suggests (for me at least) NOSS satellites or similar, >i.e. ocean surveillance spy satellites which are deployed in >triangular formation. Not exactly. I mentioned in my report that this was a sighting of al least 14 objects in the sky and governor Fidel Herrera counted them on the microphone but according to some more witnesses it could have been even 20 or 30 objects. The videos will show clearely how many they were. What I said is that the objects described a triangular formation in the sky for sometime not that they were only three. They performed also some changes in their formation describing a circle and a kind of simbol, all these features in perfect alignement wich undoubtely discarded the posibility of balloons plus the fact that the objects remained in that position for almost 30 minutes. I'm expecting to receive the videos from Xalapa to make my own study and evaluation. I will let you know of my conclusions. I just posted an update to the case at Rense with some still
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:43:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:59:35 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Maccabee >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:08:08 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:02 -0400 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >Thank you very much for communicating the interesting >conversations "Hawk Tales", that you had with an anonymous >officer. >At http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales >Until the wall of secrecy falls down (will that be thanks to >ufological trumpets ?), we can already learn a lot by reading >documents like this one. I must confess I had a little >difficulty, half way through it, because there was a second >"Bob" appearing and I was a bit confused, but it is soon >clarified. The first Bob is Robert Collins, and the second one a >friend of "Hawk" by the name of Col. Robert Hippler, who >apparently played an important role in secret UFO studies. Your >text tends to corroborate the book of Collins and Doty, at least >.to some extent. Yes. Furthermore, Hawk's testimony connects the UFO interests and activities of the "inside group" with the parallel research on remote viewing that was being carried on by SRI and CIA/NSA/DIA because, according to Hawk, Dale Graff was one of the people supplying him UFO information.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Texas State Trooper's Sighting - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:49:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:02:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Texas State Trooper's Sighting - Hatch >From: Peter Arvanitis <peter.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:31:37 -0400 >Subject: Texas State Trooper's Sighting >Source: National UFO Reporting Center >http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/042/S42239.html >Occurred : 1/15/1993 22:30 (Entered as : 01/15/1993 22:30) >Reported: 2/24/2005 8:10:24 PM 20:10 >Posted: 5/24/2005 >Location: Canadian, TX >Shape: Triangle >Duration:15 minutes >It was triangular in shape, massive in size and eerily quiet. >I was a State Trooper working the night shift and was >patrolling US83 south of Canadian, TX. It was around 10:30PM >local time. >I always had a citizens band radio on and had been listening to >two truck drivers enjoying a conversation. It was an unusually >warm evening for a winter night and I was wearing short sleeves >and had the car window cracked a bit as I slowly patrolled >northbound. <snip> >One of the drivers asked me if I should call for help. I told >him I didn't know what I'd say. The thought did cross my mind, >but I was thinking they'd be thinking I was crazy back at the >Sheriff's Office. Hello Peter A.: A question for Peter D., should he be looking in. The Texas State Troopers function much as our Highway Patrol here in California, I take it. If that's the case, would a _State_ trooper radio in to a _County_ sheriff's office if he chose to report an incident? "Back at the Sheriff's Office" seems to imply that office was his home base which is also confusing. I'm not saying it can't happen, procedures differ from state to state. Given large thinly populated areas, do the State Troopers rely on county facilities for communications and basing? Just a minor quibble which the witness can probably clarify. I would ask in any case. Monitoring CB channels doesn't surprise me at all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Koch From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:49:24 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:05:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Koch >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:28:58 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Progeria - Lack Of Navel & Polydactyly Are Linked >Source: Mac Tonnies' Blog >http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com >There's a stubborn myth that no qualified medical doctors >think the 'alien autopsy' is 'real'. >German Professor Claims To Identify Santilli Alien >http://archive.anomalies.net/cni-news/CNI.0034.html >But the U.S. government had recently shown it was no UFO >in 1947, but rather a spy balloon that had crashed. >Therefore skeptics quickly guessed that the film was a >forgery. So their opinion was that the alleged >extraterrestrial was a rubber dummy. However, the truth >is much more macabre. The person lying on the >pathologist's dissection table doctors have now proven to >be a genetically deformed girl. Hello List, There is a story behind the progeria nonsense which you should know. At the time the Santilli scam was issued, the very successful International Roswell Initiative, founded by Hans-Juergen Kyborg, me and Kent Jeffrey (later Kent enigmatically turned around one hundred degrees, maybe by 'external' pressure). As a physician, I looked at that dummy in the film and made up my mind if there might be a chance to find syndromes which might cause a human body to look like the corpse in the film by genetic defects. So I started my search - and was quite successful. I then published my findings in a short 'paper' in the Internet for everyone to read. I have added the text of my findings below. It comprises all the anatomic features which were subject of the discussions at that time in 1995. You may also look here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/roswell8.html#IRI My publication was not welcomed by a man named Illobrand von Ludwiger, who ruled like an emperor an invitation-only group of researchers in aerial phenomena in Southern Germany. We have been to indepent according his group rules (everything must have been controlled by him, only he decided what was to be published and where and so on). At that time, we were about to leave that group with its unacceptable standards. So he could not stand the fact that I have issued a scientific examination whitout his blessing and ordered another medical examination by a German physician. So my colleague and dermatologist Thomas Jansen from the Munic University appeared with his progeria-proposal. The physical shape of progeria patients is very different from what was so be seen in the AA-film. And progeria is a very rare disease, only a few patients are described in the literature. The progeria disease appeared on the Ufo stage at that time as the jealous attempt of the leader of the German UFO group 'MUNFON-CES' to have his own medical bulletin. And this was a rather far-fetched one. The impact of the International Roswell Initiave was a good wind behind the late Sen. Steve Schiff who issued the GAO inquiry about Roswell Ufo-related documents. So who of you will get another Senator to come forward with another GAO inquiry to look for documents related to experiments with humans in the New Mexico desert? Who of you will issue another FOIA inquiry to publish documents related to experiments with humans by the American Military and to name the departments, institutes and people involved with? Then we would have a chance more to verify Nick Redfern's findings. I hope to get the book here in Germany. Below you can read my findings from 1995 about the C-Syndrome(which also is a rare disease). Best, Joachim koch ********************************************************** *Announcement* *of the* *International Roswell Initiative* *IRI* Berlin, August 12, 1995 *********************************************************** THE SANTILLI CIRCUS by Joachim Koch 1. Introduction The aim of this article is to provide some medical background to demonstrate that there exists the possibility that an autopsy was not performed on an "alien being" in the film shown by Ray Santilli in London on May 5th. As a general surgeon in Germany, I feel qualified to write about this subject. I practice in a large (700 bed) hospital in Berlin- Spandau,Germany. During the past 18 years I have seen many seriously injured individuals from all sorts of accidents. I have also attended numerous autopsies. Even today, seeing a body dissected is not pleasant for me. Although an autopsy is done in a clinical atmosphere for medical or scientific purposes, it nonetheless affects me deeply. When I leave the autopsy room to return to my normal duties, I take a few moments to forget the dissected corpse, and to remember the human being it once was. If the being shown in the Santilli film was not a dummy --if it was once a living being from Soccoro, Dallas, Cambridge, Berlin, or wherever -- it deserves the respect civilized people pay to all our deceased. If it turns out that the entity in the film really is an alien, then by our greedy plundering of the corpse and showing this publicly, we will have shown how little value we place on life. By our actions, we may have failed the test of becoming equal members of the cosmic community. 2. Some considerations about bodies and autopsies It is important to remember what Glenn Dennis, the mortician at Ballard's, said he was told by the nurse who witnessed the autopsies. According to Dennis, the preliminary autopsy was performed in the Air Force hospital at Roswell, and the bodies seen by the nurse had four fingers, unlike the body in the Santilli film, which had six. If a preliminary autopsy in Roswell had been performed and the final dissection (in the Santilli film) was done in another place, perhaps Fort Worth or Wright Field, then sutures placed during the first autopsy should have been visible during the second autopsy shown in the film, but they were not. Not surprisingly, pathologists stitch up bodies more crudely than do surgeons, yet no one viewing the film reported any sutures, and in fact, the "doctors" in the film are seen making the initial cuts. The body in the film, then, could not have been one of the bodies that the nurse in Roswell saw being autopsied. Most, if not all, who viewed the film were puzzled by the odd outfits of the "doctors." Kent Jeffrey, who was present at the showing, described them in his June MUFON Journal article as "two individuals in white anti- contamination suits, complete with hoods and narrow, rectangular glass faceplates..." What were these suits for? They could not have been for protection from radiation because in a previous film shown by Santilli, "doctors" were seen examining a body without protective suits. Moreover, in the recovery of an alien craft and its crew, testing for radiation would certainly have been one of the first steps, but Jesse Marcel, Sr., has testified that no radiation was detected at the crash site. The suits could not have been for protection from the odor of a decaying body. A suit for that purpose would have required breathing apparatus. Nor could the suits have been protection against unknown bacteria or viruses. In that case again, some sort of breathing apparatus would have been required to guard against airborne organisms. So, it is likely that the strange outfit worn by the doctors had a different purpose -- to conceal their identities. It is hard to understand why the autopsy was not performed under better lighting conditions, why only two "doctors"were in attendance, and why only one camera was operating amateurishly. An autopsy of an alien would have been an extraordinary event. It may have been performed in a large room or auditorium so that many pathologists could have been present. It would have been performed very carefully and methodically, perhaps over several weeks' time. Careful motion picture filming and many slides and/or still photos would have resulted. Conditions would have been ideal to facilitate the best photographic records possible. Nothing done by the film's "doctors" seems to indicate that they were aware of handling something of extraordinary value to mankind. The whole scene looked unpleasant and somehow illegal. 3. Physical Features Only one or two of the attendees of the May 5th showing were medical professionals. Those present did, however, see a few features supposedly common to those of a "real alien,"such as dark almond- shaped eyes, a larger than normal head,a small mouth, a small nose, and smaller than normal ears in an abnormal location. Also seen in the film were features that are not commonly reported characteristics of aliens --six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. I am not one who believes that alien lifeforms from other planets/ worlds/dimensions must be different from human forms. In my opionion, they could look very similar to those on earth. We do not have to assume, however, that a six-toed being is an alien from outer space. Members of ourown human species here on earth occasionally have six toes. In medical terms, having more than five digits on the hands or feet is a genetic variation called "polydactylism." Polydactylism is seen in several different medical syndromes. A syndrome is a group of symptoms that collectively characterize a disease or abnormal condition,nearly all are named by the men or women who first describe them. There are approximately 34 syndromes in which polydactylism of the fingers is present, and approximately 36 syndromes in which polydactylism of the toes is found. In approximately 12 syndromes hexadactylism (six digits) of the fingers is present, and 13 with hexadactylism of the toes. In syndactylism, two or more digits are knitted together. Different degrees exist, and there may be skin between the digits -- like webbing (as in the webbed feet of ducks). Note the description of one syndrome in particular. Extreme growth of the head; widespread eyes and deep eye sockets, abroad-based nose; increased growth of the base of the skull; a crescent-shaped skin fold at the inner upper eyelid;mongoloid axis of the eyelids; no hair between the eyebrows;lowering of the outer ear, which is small; small lips; lowerjaw underdeveloped; low birth weight; short length at birth(dwarf like); unproportioned growth (dyschondroplasia);multiple variations of the ribs, breastbone, hip, knee;malformations of inner organs possible; poly- and/or hexadactylism. This description is not that of an alien, but of a human being who suffers from "C-syndrome," or in the American medical literature, from "Opitz trigonocephaly syndrome." Only a few cases of C-syndrome have ever been described formally, and these few died very young. Still, the description indicates the variation possible in humans. Another variation seen in humans is "Ellis-van Creveld syndrome," also known as "six-fingered dwarfism." This is characterized by the underdevelopment of various bones,particularly the long bones of the body. Bilateral hexadactyly is also prevalent. Another symptom is hypoplasia (arrested development), dysplasia (abnormal development), or absence of the teeth, fingernails, or toenails. Some of these individuals show sexual infantilism, with hypoplasia of the sexual organs. One third of these patients die during the first year of life. For a syndrome to be diagnosed, key symptoms must exist, but not all symptoms have to be present. So, a human being could have some symptoms of a particular syndrome, but not all, and that human could live to early adulthood. 4. A disgraceful game For almost 50 years, the U.S. government has denied any knowledge of Roswell. In 1978, Jesse Marcel, Sr., spoke out, and the investigation of the Roswell incident began. In the spring of 1994, organizers of the International Roswell Initiative began gathering signatures on the"Roswell Declaration" asking the U.S. president for an executive order to declassify information about what happened in Roswell. So far, more than 19,000 Declarations have been signed. After decades of silence, a report on Roswell was issued in 1994 by the U.S. Air Force. The report identified the Roswell wreckage as that of a weather balloon. Most UFO researchers feel this was another attempt at a coverup. A few months after the Air Force report, 14 rolls of film appeared, supposedly showing the crashed material at Roswell, as well as an autopsy of an alien. Have we all forgotten how the MJ-12 documents appeared out of the blue? What do we really have? A film producer who knows film- and movie- making techniques, telling the public that he bought the film from an old man. The producer does not reveal the identity of the old man, but refers to him as Jack Barnett-- a name similar to Barney Barnett, an alleged Roswell character. If the film really showed alien corpses, it should have been reviewed by independent UFO organizations using scientific methods. Instead of providing the film for review, Mr.Santilli began a game of cat-and- mouse. Some hints here,some interviews there. Some pictures to elder pop stars here, some pictures to crop circle researchers there. Then,media involvement and the showing at the London Museum on May 5th. I remember when I was a medical student that by paying the dissection assistants, it would have been possible to be alone with the cadavers. With a lookout in place, students could have filmed a body. It is not unthinkable that a financially strapped student might decide to make a film to fool the UFO community. The so-called "doctors" in the film could have been anyone-- doctors, actors, army personnel, or students. The anonymity of the doctors is ensured by their outfits and masks. Who could distinguish between an actor wearing a mask and a once-living politician, given the poor lighting,poor resolution, and distance shots of the film? Recently, those involved with the Santilli film have attempted to explain themselves and establish the legitimacy of the film in interviews and on the Internet. However, in my opinion, they have lost their chance to be taken seriously by not playing it straight from the start. Serious researchers should not lend credibility to Santilli's case. British UFO Research Association (BUFORA) especially should not show the Santilli film at the Sheffield conference in August. Instead, they should insist on a scientific analysis of the film by independent researchers (not Mr. Mantle). Mr. Santilli should not be invited to speak until he has disclosed everything about the source of the film, and until he has verified that he is not an employee of any intelligence agency. If BUFORA permits a showing of the Santilli film without scientific analysis,they are only encouraging this farce. The UFO community should wake up! It's time to stop Santilli, with his unscientific handling of this matter because he is damaging the credibility of the UFO community. Our research into the possibility of extraterrestrial life should not be tainted by the Santillis of this world who follow only their own interests. We continue to engage in, and believe strongly in, free,independent, public, and scientific UFO research. We shall reject any who shun that kind of UFO research for the sake of money, religion, politics, or power. I will help thwart those on this planet who try to prevent humankind from evolving into a member of the cosmic community. Joachim Koch Hans-Juergen Kyborg __________________________________________________________ The *International Roswell Initiative* was founded by *Kent Jeffrey* (USA), *Joachim Koch* and *Hans-Juergen Kyborg* (both Berlin, Germany) in 1994. It is officially greatly supported (among many others) by MUFON, CUFOS and FUFOR and became one of the most successful international grassroots efforts in Ufology at that time with more than 20,000 signed "Roswell Declarations". **********************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:52:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:18:49 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >I think the "enlarged musculature" can be explained by rigor >mortis, which afflicts "fresh" corpses for 72 hours. See: >http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm >If the being in the AA was an experimental test subject, it >stands to reason that it would be dissected as shortly after the >experiment as possible in order to accurately assess biological >effects -- in this case, possibly but by no means certainly due >to radiation exposure. We don't know each other, Mac, so you probably don't know that in 1983 I made all of the photographic illustrations for an anatomy and physiology lab textbook which was used by universities all over the US and Canada. That involved becoming far more familiar than I had ever wanted to be with dissecting cadavers. Rigor mortis is a stiffening of muscles caused by chemical changes in the muscle cells after death. How soon it sets in varies considerably depending on a number of factors, and how long it lasts also varies. But rigor mortis stiffens muscles, it does not enlarge or bulge them. The flopping of one hand at one point in the AA film indicates to me that the creature was not in rigor mortis at the time, anyway. If you Google on progeria you will get over 600 images of real progeria victims to look at. There is not a one in that large group with a nose like the AA creature, or facial features like it either. None with a neck like it, none with a body like it, none that look like it at all. Forget the mouth, then, and relate eye size to the "surgeon's" hand when he removes the black membranes. The eyeballs are gigantic. The iris is several times the diameter of a human. These are not the eyes of a human, progeria or otherwise. I don't see a single progeria victim with enlarged eyeballs in all of those Googled photos. In fact, most seem to have small eyes. >>In fact the massive neck musculature is one of the first >>thing I noticed about the AA creatures. >Progeria "shrink wraps," to varying degrees, the skin, which has >the effect of highlighting the underlying musculature. The neck >isn't nearly as buff as it appears from above; in fact, it looks >suspiciously spindly in side-views. I'm speaking of the actual muscles after the skin flap is pulled away. The sterno-mastoids are gigantic, and connect at the sternal end differently than in humans. This is not just a minor variation, but a major "design" difference necessitated by the massive head. In fact, this was the main point made by a neck and facial surgeon that I sent a copy of the AA film to. He works on this area in people all the time and he had never seen musculature as massive or connected in the way seen in the AA film. He was quite convinced that this was a real dissection of a real body, but not that it was human. >>There is much more, but I don't have the time right now to write >>a treatise. >No, no - if there's "much more," I want to hear it. Give me the >treatise. Better yet, give all of us this treatise. Maybe some day when I can write it in book form. Not right now. >>You are looking, Mac, but you are not seeing. >You're thinking, Bob, but you're not thinking critically. Fair response. I should have said that it was a difference between seeing and observing with a trained eye. <snip> >I rather suspect that's precisely why they're so "difficult to >see" in the autopsy. And the cadaver does not have "plenty" of >subdermal fat. Ironically, debunkers hace seized on the obvious >lack of it as evidence that the AA can't be "real." The amount of subdermal fat looks perfectly normal to me and to the medical doctors who examined the film at my request. >>>3.) Polydactyly, which is relatively common with genetic defects >>>such as progeria. >>Citations please. >Polydactyly is (relatively) common with people afflicted by >seemingly unrelated genetic syndromes. I didn't realize this >until I started online medical literature. Do you mean to say >you haven't done the same, yet have the confidence to accuse me >of "not seeing"? Yes I have. I have not found a single case of a polydactyl progeria sufferer. In the more than 600 images you get from Google, there isn't a polydactyl to be seen. If you do a Google search and enter both progeria and polydactyl, guess what? Not a single hit! There simply is NO relationship between these two conditions. None, zip, nada! Your statement, "Polydactyly, which is relatively common with genetic defects such as progeria," just does not hold water. Show me references to progeria sufferers with polydactyly. >>Progeria has been dismissed with a fully objective >>hearing. >I don't think the hearing has even begun, based on the ignorance >of its symptoms I've encountered (here and elsewhere). I've been looking into all of this since 1995, and have gone down most of the dead end paths which are being pulled out
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:40:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:21:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:16:55 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >Just three questions to anybody who cares to answer: You said three questions, but only asked two. Is there a third? >1) Has been "the cameraman" clearly and definitely identified >and his credentials cheked? Yes and no. Ray Santilli says he has done this, but he has not shared the info with anyone because he pledged to keep the cameraman's name confidential as long as he is alive. >2) Has the film footage clearly and definitely dated? Yes and no, again. When I first met Ray and looked at some of the film, he was under the impression that he had bought camera original footage. Once we delved into this more deeply we realized that what Ray had gotten is copy prints, since the camera original would be negative film. Ray does have some pieces which he says are camera original. In his office in London he very briefly showed me some reels of this as well as a large reel which he said was other footage the cameraman had given him. The edge markings on the film are right for 1947 manufacture. The type of film base of the print film is also right for 1947. >If the answer to any of this two questions is no, I cannot >understand how any serious ufologist bothers to even consider >the film as a valuable evidence. Because what is shown on the film is clearly a biological entity of unknown origin. And because the cameraman's story has held together well in the last ten years. >Besides, since I first saw it, eight years ago in Edimburgh, one >thing nobody has ever commented has always bother me. >According to the cameraman, the footage was just the part that >was left behind in a burocratical mishap over the new Air Force >organization. This would be barely understandable if there were >different short "cuts" of various durations discarded during the >development. But, as I remember it, the footage shows an almost >complete sequence of events. >Has anybody timed the footage and also the missed parts (if >possible)? Yes, a lot of this work was done when the film first surfaced. Theresa Carlson did some excellent work as did a number of others. >We are talking about allegedly the most important document in >human history, the autopsy of the very first alien... and his >defenders want to convince us that nobody cheked the material >received and noticed the missing parts. I believe from watching the "surgeons" do their dissection that this is hardly the first of these creatures they had dissected. They knew where everything was and what to look for. In fact, it's almost like they're doing something rather routine. The black membranes over the eyes, for example. They remove those quickly and cleanly with no hesitation, so they already knew they would just pull off. But, as I said back in the early days, there is an alternate explanation for how the cameraman came to have this film in his possession. What Ray Santilli bought is a _print_. What went through the camera was a _negative_. The cameraman could have given the air force ALL of the camera negative film and kept part of the print film for himself, or, which is what I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 It's All Done With Planks And A Bit Of String? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:46:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:46:01 -0400 Subject: It's All Done With Planks And A Bit Of String? Too many images to be missed...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:42:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:02:21 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Hall >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:46 +0100 (BST) >Subject: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >The inflatable Loony Balloony space protection umbrella :-) >Don't miss reading this it will make your hair stand on >end; >http://tinyurl.com/cp6w9 >The construction may later be mistaken for UFO clusters >especially if used in near space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Miller From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:13:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:03:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Miller >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:16:10 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:12:07 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell <snip> >When, in quick succession, I have read Greg Bishop's book, >Robert Collins' book and now Nick's book, I find it impossible >afterwards to take anything at face value anymore. I suspect the >evil and dark hand of American counter intelligence behind all
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:26:37 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:06:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:44:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:00:27 +0000 >>Subject: Governor's Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>Massive UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>by Santiago Yturria >>A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday June 24, 2005 in >>Xalapa, Mexico witnessed by Xalapa's governor Fidel Herrera >>Beltran, members of his staff, the Xalapa's police department, >>newspapers and television reporters and many people gathered at >>Casa Veracruz for an official ceremony where the new patrol >>units wouls be delivered to the police department. >After reading Santiago's post, I began wondering why >it seems >like we only hear from certain people >representing Mexico on >this list and it's usually the >same 'breathtaking', amazing, >sensationalist stories >about "fleets of OVNI's" invading Mexico >(except for >one or two individuals). I wondered if someone in >Xalapa had released a bunch of balloons or watched a >balloon >release on Friday morning then read the >article in the Diario >de Xalapa newspaper or saw the >report on TV Azteca, would they >call the TV station or newspaper to report the truth. >Further, would the newspaper or TV station bother to >report >these additional claims? On the countrary, the UFO sighting is confirmed by TV Azteca. You are definitely wrong in your concepts. First of all you were not there. You are not an actual witness to the incident. You have not seen a single piece of the videos. You have not seen TV Azteca's reports. You don't know all the facts regarding this case only what I have reported. Therefore your statement results irrelevant. I suggest you review the updates, on this List, on this case and the advances in our investigation. Be patient and cautious. Don't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:35:31 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:16:55 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >Just three questions to anybody who cares to answer: >1) Has been "the cameraman" clearly and definitely identified >and his credentials cheked? No. Bob Shell and Ed Gehrman may have a different opinion - and they certainly have a right to it - but the "cameraman's" testimony smacks of fabrication to me. My hypothesis is that the AA is an actual film (of a real event) that was cleverly marketed as proof of an ET crash just when public interest in Roswell was waxing in the mid-1990s. >2) Has the film footage clearly and definitely >dated? Not to my knowledge. >If the answer to any of this two questions is no, I cannot >understand how any serious ufologist bothers to even consider >the film as a valuable evidence. I consider it _potentially_ valuable evidence of the sort of nastiness recounted by Nick Redfern's "Body Snatchers In the Desert." >According to the cameraman, the footage was just the part that >was left behind in a burocratical mishap over the new Air Force >organization. This would be barely understandable if there were >different short "cuts" of various durations discarded during the >development. But, as I remember it, the footage shows an almost >complete sequence of events. I agree. I think the story told by the probably fictional cameraman is bogus. It's more likely Ray Santilli, the AA's chief promoter, quite honestly had no solid idea where the AA came from. >We are talking about allegedly the most important >document in >human history, the autopsy of the very first >alien... As long as we keep thinking exclusively in terms of "aliens" we're doomed to failure. I don't think the AA has anything to do with aliens or other nonhuman beings; I think it shows the corpse of a progeric human used in a radiation experiment. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Body Snatchers In The Desert From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:12:32 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:40:23 -0400 Subject: Body Snatchers In The Desert I would like to take this opportunity to commend Nick Redfern for writing his book, Body Snatchers In The Desert. I look forward to reading it with great interest. As Listers may know, I tend to believe that the evidence thus far suggests on off-earth explaination for the events at Roswell, however we should be open to whereever the evidence leads. As Nick indicates, this book should serve as a launching point, or base, for additional research into the purported 731-type testing that allegedly happened in New Mexico during the first 8 or so months of 1947. As a cold war researcher, I know that there were numerous testing, projects and experiments that went on over the years. However over the years I went on a number of wild goose chases of projects experiments and testings that allegedly happened but when you nailed everything down people/places/project names you found things that didn't add up. I would think that somebody should talk to the NY balloon crew, Charles Moore and others and see if they knew of any other balloon projects that were happening around White Sands while they were their. Point blank it would be hard to hide a balloon with a Horten style wing as a payload. If such tests did occur, even though it was advanced that "everything was shredded years ago" I suspect a researcher will be able to find at least some documentation and or logs, which may link back to a person who can verify or not. Nicks information apparently came from a 'Col" at a crash retrival conference and a person who allegedly worked at Los Alamos. Should we believe them? Not until the evidence checks out. Many people will recall one Roswell witness who conviencingly told stories about first hand involvement in Roswell and the craft, then later it turned out that it was not correct. Don't forget my favorite of the many stories and tales advanced by witnesses the "jewel encrusted helmet." Nick in a way acknowledges this by indicating that this should be viewed as a starting point for research. We also have Robert Collins new book Exempt from Disclosure which names names of people in the high level of UFO coverup, indicates that Roswell really happened, and EBE 1 came from that crash. Should Roswell be proven to be part of some ghoulish experiments it doesn't make, or break the whole UFO subject, nor more then if somebody conclusively proved that one particular UFO case was in fact not a UFO case. It merely provides an answer about that particular case. I predict that the cronies from the skeptic tank who have a hard time adjusting the evidence to fit Mogel will seize upon Nicks book as the definitive explaination to what happened...when in fact it is only a starting point which may, or may not lead to the Brazel Ranch. So the bottom line is Body Snatchers in the Desert could prove to be 100 percent correct, partially correct, or a jewel encrusted helmet. Research should be able to prove this one way or the other. We will see where the evidence goes. If it doesn't add up, I am sure that Nick will be the first one to tell us.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Shuttle Safety From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:08:36 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:42:03 -0400 Subject: Shuttle Safety NASA 'Failed' On Shuttle Safety NASA has failed to hit tough safety targets needed to fly its shuttles again after the 2003 disaster, experts say.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:27:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:49:24 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >Below you can read my findings from 1995 about the >C-Syndrome(which also is a rare disease). Just as interesting today as it was when you first wrote it. Thanks for posting it here, as most in the current discussion probably did not see it before. Unfortunately for us who are trying to investigate, there seem to be no photographs of C-Syndrome anywhere on the internet. I have searched using both the C-Syndrome name and the more formal Opitz trigonocephaly syndrome name, and have come up completely dry. Do you know of any photographs anywhere on the internet?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:34:05 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:44:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell - Bourdais >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:16:10 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:12:07 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Some Thoughts On Roswell >Gildas, >You were getting my original post mixed up with Greg's reply. Stuart Yes, and I was rebuked by Greg Boone for that. I repeat that I don't see any relation between the fact that the Brazilian Air Force has begun to open some UFO files, thanks to the good work of some ufologists in that country, and the book
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Santiago Chile Family's Paranormal Experience From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:55:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:30:52 -0400 Subject: Santiago Chile Family's Paranormal Experience INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology June 28, 2005 Source: Infobae.com Date: June 28, 2005 CHILE: SANTIAGO FAMILY'S PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=192996&IdxSeccion=100 A family returning home to Santiago witnessed the road and surrounding countryside become "illuminated" by a "light". They still can't explain what happened. Sunday night turned into daytime for a few moments, at least for members of the Abdo family. As they returned to Santiago de Chile from the city of Loreto, where they spent the weekend, "the road and the surrounding countryside lit up unexpectedly" only a few meters before the "Vuelta de la Barranca" roadsign. This was the story given by the family's three members. "It was a tremendous glow that turned the area into daylight. We could see clearly to the full extent of our vision, both front and back and to the sides," said Gaby Daher, Carlos Abdo's wife and mother of "Carlitos", to the El Liberal newspaper. The vehicle's occupants explained that the "light" had a "soft sky blue color" that putatively came "from above", although they were unable to see any vehicle or figure that could be identified. "Carlitos" remarked that he saw a white contrail on the horizon similar to the ones left in the wake of jet airliners. The car and its occupants traveled a distance of some 200 meters with "everything lit up" around them. The "brightness" disappeared as suddenly as it emerged. Darkness enveloped the road once more and the car's headlights continued to illuminate a small area of the highway. The Abdo family has still found no answer to this phenomenaon. Only a few years ago, local residents claimed having seen
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 26 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:55:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:33:53 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 26 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 26 June 29, 2005 Editor:Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ ALIEN STARTLES WOMAN MOTORIST IN AUSTRALIA On Friday, June 10, 2005, at 10 a.m., Catherine R. "was driving on a country road on the outskirts of Bundaberg," a port city on Hervey Bay in Australia's state of Queensland, when she saw a strange figure "standing in a meadow beside the road." "While driving in a one-and-a-half-hour drive on a country road through mostly bush-land, I saw through my window a large dark figure about 7 or 8 feet (2.1 to 2.4 meters) tall," Catherine reported, "It had the appearance of a man but was far more muscular, with wide shoulders and a torso like a god. It was like nothing I'd ever seen. It was dark and scaley-looking. Its colour was like ash. Its head was insect-like. I was a scared 22- year-old female." "It was just staring at me. I was extremely uncomfortable. I was shocked and 'floored' it. It stood still. I drove at 100 kilometers per hour (60 miles per hour) when I saw it. I sped away from it at 120 kilometers per hour (72 miles per hour). I had never seen anything so strange." Bundaberg, Qlnd. is located 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of Brisbane. (Email Form Report) (Editor's Comment: And welcome to Odd Doings in Oz Week here at UFO Roundup. There's more to come from Down Under, so read on...) LUMINOUS ORANGE UFO SEEN IN KNOXFIELD, VIC. On Saturday, June 25, 2005, at 10:10 p.m., Gavin W. was outdoors at his home in Knoxfield, a suburb of Melbourne in Australia's state of Victoria, when he saw a strange orange light in the sky. "There was an orange light in the sky moving around," Gavin reported, "It was going straight, then it stopped and moved to the right. Then straight. Then right again. Then it stopped and moved back, going left. Then it stayed still again for about two minutes. Then it moved on at a high speed, up into the sky." "The object moved in every direction. I know it was moving at high speed because I could see the light trail it left. It was completely round in front, when it was moving towards me. But then, when it moved sideways, it looked disk-shaped. It was well above the clouds. I don't know the speed it was going, maybe the speed of a commercial aircraft when it is very high. But when it left, it went extremely fast." (Email Form Report) UFO FLOTILLA SIGHTED OVER JALAPA, MEXICO "A massive UFO sighting took place on Friday, June 24, 2005, in Jalapa," a city in Mexico's state of Veracruz, and was "witnessed by Jalapa's governor Fidel Herrera Beltran, members of his staff, the Jalapa police department, newspaper and television reporters and many people gathered at the Casa Veracruz during an official ceremony in which the new patrol units (police cruisers-- J.T.) were delivered to the police department." "The surprising incident took place at 10:30 a.m., causing commotion, excitement and a certain alarm among the people and officials." "Just after Gov. Fidel Herrera Beltran made a speech inaugurating the new vehicles, and during an inspection of his new patrol car, his attention was called by officials to the sky where a strange spectacle had occurred." "A spectacular UFO fleet of at least 14 unidentified flying objects captured the attention of all the people gathered at Casa Veracruz, who, pointing at the sky, screamed, 'OVNIs! OVNIs!' in a state of excitement." (Editor's Note: OVNI is the Spanish acronym for UFO.) "The police officers also pointed to the sky, wondering what these strange objects could be." "Different reactions were heard" from the gathering, ranging from amazement to consternation, "and even some laughs from among the people, who continuted to shout, 'OVNIs!'" "The newspaper reporters were taking photos and the television crews were recording the unusual spectacle." "Gov. Fidel Herrera Beltran took the microphone and said jokingly, 'It seems the Martians have arrived.'" "The people wondered if the strange objects could be balloons of some kind or in fact real UFOs like those so many times reported in Mexico. However, the enigmatic flying objects remained almost stationary in the sky in formation, described as a triangular pattern in perfect alignment, for almost 30 minutes. This was time enough for the strange event to be videotaped by the media and some of the spectators in the audience." "On Friday night," June 24, 2005, "Television Azteca" in Mexico City, the national TV network, "presented the report with video footage, giving a full account of the unprecedented incident." "On Saturday," June 25, 2005, "the newspaper Diario de Jalapa, as well as others, published on page one--with major headlines--the unusual event." Jalapa is in the western part of the state, about 264 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Veracruz and 320 kilometers (200 miles) east of Mexico City. (See the Mexican newspaper Diario de Jalapa for June 25, 2005. Muchas gracias a Santiago Yturra Garza y Arturo del Moral por este articulo de diario.) MYSTERY METEOR CHASED BY BLACK HELICOPTERS On Thursday, June 23, 2005, at 11:47 p.m., Carl Farrington was driving on a mountain road near Canton, North Carolina (population 4,029) when he saw a most unusual spectacle in the night sky. "I took (Route) 110 out of Canton and turned left onto (Highway) 276. I went straight up to the Blue Ridge Parkway," Carl reported, "Then I turned left and turned into the famous overlook on the left. Facing a bright orange moon that day after the full moon." "What at first appeared to be a shooting star but brighter than I have ever seen plummeted towards the ground and impacted in the Smokies approximately six to nine miles (10 to 14 kilometers) straight ahead. Struck a mountain top. As it got closer to the point of impact, I noticed bright matter dripping off of it, streaming behind the main mass of the object." "It could've been a meteor, fallen satellite or space debris." "However, on the way to the house in this rural setting, three dark helicopters flew over my car. I would not have noticed them except for the fact that my car's moon roof was open, because they had no lights on whatsoever. They were flying at a high rate of speed approximately 300 to 400 feet (90 to 120 meters) off the ground, and hugging the terrain is very dangerous in this (mountainous) area." "The object was bright white and almost teardrop- shaped. It definitely impacted the ground. If it was a meteor, it was a big chunk. Broke the atmosphere and came straight down like a missile. Impacted the ground without an explosion. I was too far away to hear anything as I was six to nine miles away. I saw it at a higher elevation than the impact zone and was looking down at a distance." Canton, N.C. is in the Pisgah National Forest about 15 miles (25 kilometers) west of Asheville and 262 miles (419 kilometers) west of Raleigh. (Email Form Report) COLUMBUS UFO SURPRISES TOURIST FROM SWEDEN On Sunday, June 19, 2005, at 11:30 p.m., Swedish tourist Jonas Larsson spotted a UFO over Dublin, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus, the state capital. "I live in Sweden, but I am currently visiting a friend in Cleveland. I really believe in UFOs and have long been interested in such things," Jonas reported, "My friend and I were driving on Highway 270 West in Columbus, very near Dublin, My friend spotted a lightning ball in the middle of the air. I mean, it was like far away and looked like one of the street lamps along the highway." "My friend asked what it could be, I mean, we had not seen it move at all at first. And it could not be an airplane because we saw a lot of airplanes, and they have these blinking (navigation) lights, right?" "Imagine just a roadlamp high in the sky--this is how we saw it. We chatted for about 30 seconds and suddenly it was above us. And it was not an airplane, not a luftbalone (Swedish for hot-air balloon--J.T.). The craft had an oblong first part, and the middle as well, and a big back part. I could say it was 100 meters (330 feet) above me." "I was trying to find a word for what it looked like- -I would say that, if you think about it, the object looked a bit like an arrow. The craft was white; the first part was big, and the big back part had three such lamps. It seemed like it flew from side to side. Very strange." "The whole craft was lighted up, but it was nowhere near as strong a light that we should have seen from that distance. Yellow-orange color. And the craft never seemed to move at all. But it was moving very fast, anyway, and by that I mean it was not an airplane." "When I saw it, it was over us, and we were still driving south. We could not stop on the highway, of course. I am like a slack at where I am. My friend saw the dart" the UFO fired, and "my friend was doing the driving." "When I saw it, it was above me, and we were still driving south. We could not stay long on the highway, I guess. Of course, people may say it was an airplane, I was dressed like a slick at where I am. My friend was the driver. Of course, my colleagues say it may be an airplane, but what I saw wasn't an airplane." "Well, I needed to tell them. I mean, what else can I do? I'm leaving for Sweden tonight. I hope I get some answers about this when I get back home." (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS UFO SEEN IN NEW HAMPSHIRE On Monday, June 20, 2005, at 9:30 p.m., Hank Ironwood was outdoors at his rural home in Westmoreland, New Hampshire, 10 miles (16 kilometers) north of the state border with Massachusetts, when he spotted a strange gleam in the sky. "The object flew from west to east," Hank reported, "I thought it might have been a plane, but it moved at around the speed of an airplane. Now, there were two passenger planes in the area, and their (navigation) lights were much smaller and dimmer than the lights on this object. I couldn't really make out the shape of it, but it appeared to be round." "I have no idea if this was a UFO, but I think that if it was, others here in southern New Hampshire should have certainly seen it. I would sure like to hear from them." (Email Form Report) FAST UFO FLYBY IN LEOMINSTER, UK On Saturday, June 11, 2005, at 3 a.m., eyewitness Jason S. and a few of his mates were walking home from their favorite pub in Leominster, Herefordshire, UK when they saw a strange object approaching from the north. "Me and some of my friends were walking home from the pub at around 3 a.m.," Jason reported, "None of us were really drunk or anything. We got to the crossroads and saw this green light speed across the sky. It didn't look too far away, and it sort of looked as if it were flying low. There wasn't any sound, either. The object was bright green, circular and flying very fast." (Email Form Report) (Editor's Note: This is the UK community for which Leominster, Mass. was named. Located in the heart of the mysterious "Montachusett" region, Leominster has had UFO sightings dating back to June 1909. And no wonder--its neighbor 5 miles (8 kilometers) to the north is Fitchburg, the "UFO capital of Massachusetts.") CROP CIRCLES REPORTED IN POLAND AND CANADA On Sunday, June 19, 2005, Polish cerealogist Leszek Owsiany investigated three crop circles in the village of Papros, located 25 kilometers (15 miles) from Inowroclaw in central Poland. "The three circles were joined together in a field of rye," Owsiany reported, "The first circle was 20.8 meters by 20.5 meters (69 by 67 feet); the second was 7.7 meters (25.4 feet) in diameter; and the third was 6 meters by 5.7 meters (20 feet by 18.8 feet). In all three circles, the rye was lying on the ground on the right side." "We noted that the joints of the rye stalks were thickened and bent." Assisting Owsiany in the investigation were fellow cerealogists Jacek Koslowski and Wojtek Budny of Independent Research Group Torun. While at the scene, the team learned of another pair of crop circles nearby. They interviewed farmer Zbiginew Wasilewski, who told them that on Thursday, June 16, 2005, he "had discovered two circles in his field of wheat, located one kilometer (0.6 miles) from Papros. The first circle measured 12.3 meters (40.5 feet) in diameter, with a lay to the right side. The second circle was approximately 0.5 kilometers (0.3 miles) away and 14.8 meters (48.8 feet) in diameter, again with a rightward lay. In this circle, the (surrounding) wheat was standing straight up." Inowroclaw is located 225 kilometers (140 miles) west-northwest of Warsaw, Poland's capital. In Canada, a crop circle was found Thursday, June 2, 2005, at the Sandy Bay Reserve near Lake Manitoba. The formation "was approximately 8 metres (26 feet) long-- grass missing, not flattened--with 1/4-inch (0.63- centimeter) deep 'grooves' in the soil. The formation is similar to the early 1990s dumbbell-type formations in England, with three sets of concentric rings connected by straight pathways. The grass and the soil in the area became pretty waterlogged due to excessive rain. The formation was aligned north-south." "Also worth noting," reported Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circles Research Network, "Three circles were found at the site, made of fist-sized rocks, with curving lines between the circles. Ground photos can be found at CCCRN's Web site." (Many thanks to Robert Fischer and Paul Anderson for these reports.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:14:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:36:08 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell I would like to thank List members who sent me links to photos of C-Syndrome children. No, they do not even remotely look like the AA creature. Here is one batch: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Villa/1407/images/ However this link is very interesting to me: http://pediatricneuro.com/alfonso/pg159.htm Note that the subarachnoid space is apparently typical for C-Syndrome. Also note that the brain, although compressed front to back, still has the gyri and sulci, and central sinus of a normal human brain. The brain of the AA creature shows none of this. Although the C-Syndrome children don't look anything like the AA creature, the X-Ray in the middle of that page looks remarkably like Lloyd Pye's "starchild". I've been fairly certain from the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Koch From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:37:10 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:38:18 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Koch >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:27:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ><ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:49:24 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>Below you can read my findings from 1995 about the >>C-Syndrome(which also is a rare disease). >Just as interesting today as it was when you first wrote >it. >Thanks for posting it here, as most in the current >discussion probably did not see it before. >Unfortunately for us who are trying to investigate, there seem >to be no photographs of C-Syndrome anywhere on the internet. I >have searched using both the C-Syndrome name and the more formal >Opitz trigonocephaly syndrome name, and have come up completely >dry. >Do you know of any photographs anywhere on the internet? >I'd be curious to see just what a person with C-Syndrome >looks like. Hello Bob & List, please don't forget that these humans a suffering from genetic defects and that they are sick. They are patients. Well,yes, I have a photograph of a little child but photographs cannot be published here. Later that week, I will publish it on my website und the 'Roswell' section. But there is something that might be of interest for you. If you click the link below: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Villa/1407/ you'll reach the Opitz Trigonocephaly Syndrome Family Network (OTSFN). There you'll find many links to many interesting features regarding this syndrome and you can learn a lot about it such as : "The most characteristic feature of Opitz-C is trigonocephaly. This means the head of an affected individual is triangular shaped." and more about the, sometimes lethal, defects of the other organs. Also: "The OTSFN is for all families of children who have Opitz Trigonocephaly Syndrome, also known as Opitz-C syndrome (after the initial of the first patient). We now have contact with 24 families in nine different countries." And: "The syndrome is now thought to be caused by gonadal mosaicism. A person who is a "genetic mosaic" has cells in his or her body with different genetic makeup." "This usually is a variation in the number of chromosomes in the body's cells. Normally, all body cells would have the same number of chromosomes (46). But in mosaicism, some cells may have 47 chromosomes (such as extra chromosome 21 or X chromosome in some, but not all cells)" They show pictures from their 1998 conference there. As I wrote in my paper about the syndrome: "For a syndrome to be diagnosed, key symptoms must exist, but not all symptoms have to be present. So, a human being could have some symptoms of a particular syndrome, but not all, and that human could live to early adulthood." This means a patient suffering from C-Syndrome might look 'normal' in general and different regarding details. They also announce the "Opitz Trigonocephaly (Opitz C) Syndrome Family Conference" on June 15-18, 2006 to be held in Chicago, Ill., USA. Please don't forget that I am writing about disabled humans who and whose families deserve our respect. Thank you, Joachim Koch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:42:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:39:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:35:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:47:49 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico <snip> >Hi Don: >I heard you briefly on Coast to Coast being interviewed >by LMH! >As for the Xalapa sighting, I don't have Santiago's original >message, but I think I recall that he indicated a trio of >lights in triangle formation. >There was no mention of maneuvers, instead the trio moved >slowly if at all, and was seen for quite a while. >This suggests (for me at least) NOSS satellites or >similar, i.e. ocean surveillance spy satellites which are >deployed in triangular formation. <snip> >Google lists 91,800 web pages for just the words trio + >satellites (no quotes) so there's no lack of information. >Add the 3 words visible + naked + eye, and this drops to >only 23,000 pages, the second of which is here: >http://www.eclipsetours.com/sat/class.html >and includes 2 or 3 photos. Hi Larry, For those who have not seen images of groups of satellites I would suggest a visit to John Locker's Satcom site at and have a look at the Geostationary Satellites page which includes several images and animations. Address is: http://www.satcom.freeserve.co.uk/geos.htm Hope this is of some interest. John Hayes webmaster.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Secrecy News -- 06/28/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:09:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:41:55 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/28/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 60 June 28, 2005 ** CRS REPORTS INDEXED, ARCHIVED ONLINE ** "CRS HAS NO PUBLIC MISSION" ** JOURNAL OF NATIONAL SECURITY LAW AND POLICY ** SSCI REPORT ON PATRIOT ACT REAUTHORIZATION ** PAPER ON TERRORIST THREAT TO MILK TO BE PUBLISHED CRS REPORTS INDEXED, ARCHIVED ONLINE Two new searchable archives of thousands of Congressional Research Service reports are now publicly available online. The Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) unveiled its "Open CRS" web site this week, which offers a searchable, consolidated archive of several large CRS collections, including that of the Federation of American Scientists. The CDT archive, skillfully engineered by staffer Joshua Ruihley, also encourages users to collect and submit additional CRS reports to the collection. See CDT's Open CRS site here: http://www.opencrs.com/ The University of North Texas (UNT) Libraries has produced its own archive of CRS reports. It is even larger than the CDT collection, with which it naturally overlaps, though it includes numerous updates of the same report (e.g. nearly two dozen marginally different copies of "Intelligence Issues for Congress"). Unlike the CDT archive, the UNT search engine does not currently permit sorting by date to identify the most recent report on a subject. See "Congressional Research Service Reports, Hosted by UNT Libraries" here: http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/index.tkl See also "Web site lists private government reports" by Ted Bridis, Associated Press, June 27: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8375954/ "CRS HAS NO PUBLIC MISSION" Why aren't non-confidential Congressional Research Service reports automatically made available to the public? At first glance, the policy appears to reflect institutional arrogance or reflexive secrecy on the part of CRS and the Congress. But there is more to it than that, congressional officials say. CRS repeatedly stresses that it works for Congress, and only for Congress. "CRS assists every Member and committee," said Director Daniel P. Mulhollan in May 23 testimony before the House Appropriations Committee. "All of our work is confidential and focuses solely, directly, and specifically on the needs of the congressional community. CRS has no public mission." By insisting on this point, CRS is distinguishing itself from the larger and higher-profile Government Accountability Office. More subtly, CRS is repudiating any comparison with the Office of Technology Assessment (OTA), which was dismantled by Congressional Republicans in 1995, an event that is seared in the consciousness of CRS officials. What CRS is saying is that it has no institutional agenda of its own aside from support to members of Congress, and that, unlike OTA, it takes no position on disputed policy matters. CRS believes that its uniqueness as a congressional support agency, which constitutes its central claim to continued funding, would only be diluted by direct interactions with public consumers. "Over time, CRS products might come to be written with a large public audience in mind and could no longer be focused solely on congressional needs," CRS Director Mulhollan said in a written statement yesterday. And the current congressional leadership apparently agrees. "CRS has received clear indication from its oversight committees that no change in the current policy is authorized," Director Mulhollan wrote yesterday. "It is important to recognize that while the restriction on public access to CRS products is frequently characterized as CRS 'resistance,' the reality is that the policy is a congressional one," he noted. In any case, "As CRS obtains no copyright in its products, little can be done to discourage the trend toward further public availability of CRS products brought about without the permission of a Member or committee." A 1999 CRS memorandum outlined several reasons why it believed direct public access to CRS products would have unfavorable legal and institutional consequences. See "Congressional Policy Concerning the Distribution of CRS Written Products," March 9, 1999: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/policy.html JOURNAL OF NATIONAL SECURITY LAW AND POLICY The Journal of National Security Law and Policy is a promising new forum for scholarly research and writing on current topics in the contentious field of national security law. The Journal, co-edited by Stephen Dycus and John Cary Sims, aims to transcend the usual partisan and ideological divisions and to contribute to a public dialog. The Journal's unusually diverse editorial board includes noted scholars and national security experts, current and former government officials, and me. The first issue of the Journal has been published online in its entirety and includes, for example, a timely discussion of the constitutionality of controls on "sensitive but unclassified" information. See the Journal of National Security Law and Policy here: http://www.mcgeorge.edu/jnslp/ SSCI REPORT ON PATRIOT ACT REAUTHORIZATION The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence recently reported a bill that would not only reauthorize portions of the USA Patriot Act that are set to expire, but would also expand existing authorities to permit the use of administrative subpoenas in national security investigations. The move remains controversial. "This significant new investigative authority and other proposed additions or changes to present law... are problematic and may even be damaging to our national security protections," several Democratic members of the Intelligence Committee wrote in a dissenting view. A copy of the 58 page SSCI report "To Permanently Authorize Certain Provisions of the USA Patriot Act...," dated June 16 and published this week, is available here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_rpt/srpt109-85.html PAPER ON TERRORIST THREAT TO MILK TO BE PUBLISHED The journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) announced today that it would proceed to publish a paper concerning the alleged risk of botulinum poisoning of the U.S. milk supply by terrorists. The Department of Health and Human Services had asked the journal to withhold publication of the paper, which it described as a "road map for terrorists." The paper, by Lawrence Wein and Yifan Liu of Stanford University, has also drawn criticism as alarmist and unfounded after Prof. Wein published a version of it on the New York Times op-ed page on May 30 (Secrecy News, June 14). A stinging rebuttal to the Wein op-ed, prepared by independent scientists Milton Leitenberg and George Smith, is posted here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/milk.html The controversy was aired in "Publication heeds U.S., pulls terror article" by Rebecca Carr, Atlanta Journal, June 26: http://tinyurl.com/dbgue and also in an interview I did with Bob Garfield titled "Toxic Scenario," NPR On the Media, June 17: http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/transcripts_061705_toxic.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:45:04 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Groff >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:27:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:49:24 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End ><snip> >>Below you can read my findings from 1995 about the >>C-Syndrome(which also is a rare disease). >Just as interesting today as it was when you first wrote it. >Thanks for posting it here, as most in the current discussion >probably did not see it before. >Unfortunately for us who are trying to investigate, there seem >to be no photographs of C-Syndrome anywhere on the internet. I >have searched using both the C-Syndrome name and the more >formal Opitz trigonocephaly syndrome name, and have come up >completely dry. >Do you know of any photographs anywhere on the internet? >I'd be curious to see just what a person with C-Syndrome looks >like.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:50:57 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Tonnies >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:14:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >http://pediatricneuro.com/alfonso/pg159.htm <snip> >Although the C-Syndrome children don't look anything like the AA >creature, the X-Ray in the middle of that page looks remarkably >like Lloyd Pye's "starchild". I've been fairly certain from the >beginning that the "starchild" is simply a deformed human child. >We may have solved a different mystery! If not, then it looks as if we're getting pretty close! Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:20:22 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:52:58 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Gonzalez >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:40:01 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:16:55 +0200 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>Just three questions to anybody who cares to answer: >You said three questions, but only asked two. Is there a third? >>1) Has been "the cameraman" clearly and definitely identified >>and his credentials cheked? >Yes and no. Ray Santilli says he has done this, but he has not >shared the info with anyone because he pledged to keep the >cameraman's name confidential as long as he is alive. So I have to believe in the word of one person who has gained a lot of money precisely because he avoids to give evidences. Why the secret? Of course, his employers know perfectly who he is, so the cameraman is really much more secure if he reveals himself. >>2) Has the film footage clearly and definitely dated? >Yes and no, again. When I first met Ray and looked at some of >the film, he was under the impression that he had bought camera >original footage. Once we delved into this more deeply we >realized that what Ray had gotten is copy prints, since the >camera original would be negative film. Ray does have some >pieces which he says are camera original. In his office in >London he very briefly showed me some reels of this as well as a >large reel which he said was other footage the cameraman had >given him. The edge markings on the film are right for 1947 >manufacture. The type of film base of the print film is also >right for 1947. I suppose the copy prints could not be dated. My question is clear: Has any of the images of the alien been dated to 1947? If Santilly has some camera original, the definite clarification of this point is clearly worth the "destruction" of just one frame in any analysis. Not doing so is clearly just a excuse to continue "milking the cow", specially 8 years later. >>If the answer to any of this two questions is no, I cannot >>understand how any serious ufologist bothers to even consider >>the film as a valuable evidence. >Because what is shown on the film is clearly a biological entity >of unknown origin. And because the cameraman's story has held >together well in the last ten years. I have not been following this story, but I got the impression that the cameraman's story had changed with the time, and there were many holes poked in his first version (too quick arrival, etc.). <snip> >>Has anybody timed the footage and also the missed parts (if >>possible)? >Yes, a lot of this work was done when the film first surfaced. >Theresa Carlson did some excellent work as did a number of >others. This was the third question. Can you provide a reference, please? Better if on-line, of course. <snip> >But, as I said back in the early days, there is an alternate >explanation for how the cameraman came to have this film in his >possession. What Ray Santilli bought is a _print_. What went >through the camera was a _negative_. The cameraman could have >given the air force ALL of the camera negative film and kept >part of the print film for himself, or, which is what I >personally believe, he made more than one set of prints from the >negative footage, and kept one set for himself. Is this just your "post hoc" explanation, or did the cameraman say so any time (in fact, where can I read the original story as told by the cameraman)? A perfect slight of hand. First you have a negative that could be dated, now we can only aspire to get some old print impossible to date. At least, if he kept one set of prints of this footage, surely he did the same with the rest
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:21:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:54:24 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Shell >From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:37:10 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End <snip> >"The most characteristic feature of Opitz-C is >trigonocephaly. This means the head of an affected individual is >triangular shaped." and more about the, sometimes lethal, >defects of the other organs. Yes, this trigonocephaly is characteristic, according to the sites. Interestingly, the head of the AA creatures is not trigonocephalic. The "starchild's" head is. <snip> >And: "The syndrome is now thought to be caused by gonadal >mosaicism. A person who is a "genetic mosaic" has cells in his >or her body with different genetic makeup." Such a person is often called a "Chimera" (pronounced Ky - meer -a), in English. I have read literature about them before. Sometimes it is caused by embryos that begin as fraternal twins, only to have one embryo absorbed into the other. <snip> >Please don't forget that I am writing about disabled humans who >and whose families deserve our respect.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:37:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:56:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:49:48 +0000 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:35:32 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico ><snip> >>There was no mention of maneuvers, instead the trio >moved >>slowly if at all, and was seen for quite a while. >>This suggests (for me at least) NOSS satellites or similar, >>i.e. ocean surveillance spy satellites which are deployed in >>triangular formation. >Not exactly. I mentioned in my report that this was a sighting >of al least 14 objects in the sky and governor Fidel Herrera >counted them on the microphone but according to some more >witnesses it could have been even 20 or 30 objects. The videos >will show clearely how many they were. >What I said is that the objects described a triangular >formation in the sky for sometime not that they were only three. >They performed also some changes in their formation describing a >circle and a kind of simbol, all these features in perfect >alignement wich undoubtely discarded the posibility of balloons >plus the fact that the objects remained in that position for >almost 30 minutes. >I'm expecting to receive the videos from Xalapa to make my own >study and evaluation. I will let you know of my conclusions. >I just posted an update to the case at Rense with some still >frames and video from my local TV Azteca's INFO 7 newscast regarding the Friday June 24 sighting over Xalapa. Thanks Santiago:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 US Congressional Research Service Archives/Index From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:13:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:01:53 -0400 Subject: US Congressional Research Service Archives/Index CRS Reports Indexed, Archived Online Two new searchable archives of thousands of Congressional Research Service reports are now publicly available online. The Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) unveiled its "Open CRS" web site this week, which offers a searchable, consolidated archive of several large CRS collections, including that of the Federation of American Scientists. The CDT archive, skillfully engineered by staffer Joshua Ruihley, also encourages users to collect and submit additional CRS reports to the collection. See CDT's Open CRS site here: http://www.opencrs.com/ The University of North Texas (UNT) Libraries has produced its own archive of CRS reports. It is even larger than the CDT collection, with which it naturally overlaps, though it includes numerous updates of the same report (e.g. nearly two dozen marginally different copies of "Intelligence Issues for Congress"). Unlike the CDT archive, the UNT search engine does not currently permit sorting by date to identify the most recent report on a subject. See "Congressional Research Service Reports, Hosted by UNT Libraries" here: http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/index.tkl See also "Web site lists private government reports" by Ted Bridis, Associated Press, June 27: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8375954/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:04:57 -0400 Subject: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time Source: The New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/science/28time.html June 28, 2005 Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time By Dennis Overbye There was a conference for time travelers at M.I.T. earlier this spring. I'm still hoping to attend, and although the odds are slim, they are apparently not zero despite the efforts and hopes of deterministically minded physicists who would like to eliminate the possibility of your creating a paradox by going back in time and killing your grandfather. "No law of physics that we know of prohibits time travel," said Dr. J. Richard Gott, a Princeton astrophysicist. Dr. Gott, author of the 2001 book "Time Travel in Einstein's Universe: The Physical Possibilities of Travel Through Time," is one of a small breed of physicists who spend part of their time (and their research grants) thinking about wormholes in space, warp drives and other cosmic constructions, that "absurdly advanced civilizations" might use to travel through time. It's not that physicists expect to be able to go back and attend Woodstock, drop by the Bern patent office to take Einstein to lunch, see the dinosaurs or investigate John F. Kennedy's assassination. In fact, they're pretty sure those are absurd dreams and are all bemused by the fact that they can't say why. They hope such extreme theorizing could reveal new features, gaps or perhaps paradoxes or contradictions in the foundations of Physics As We Know It and point the way to new ideas. "Traversable wormholes are primarily useful as a 'gedanken experiment' to explore the limitations of general relativity," said Dr. Francisco Lobo of the University of Lisbon. If general relativity, Einstein's theory of gravity and space- time, allows for the ability to go back in time and kill your grandfather, asks Dr. David Z. Albert, a physicist and philosopher at Columbia University, "how can it be a logically consistent theory?" In his recent book "The Universe in a Nutshell," Dr. Stephen W. Hawking wrote, "Even if it turns out that time travel is impossible, it is important that we understand why it is impossible." When it comes to the nature of time, physicists are pretty much at as much of a loss as the rest of us who seem hopelessly swept along in its current. The mystery of time is connected with some of the thorniest questions in physics, as well as in philosophy, like why we remember the past but not the future, how causality works, why you can't stir cream out of your coffee or put perfume back in a bottle. But some theorists think that has to change. Just as Einstein needed to come up with a new concept of time in order to invent relativity 100 years ago this year, so physicists say that a new insight into time - or beyond it - may be required to crack profound problems like how the universe began, what happens at the center of black hole or how to marry relativity and quantum theory into a unified theory of nature. Space and time, some quantum gravity theorists say, are most likely a sort of illusion - or less sensationally, an "approximation" - doomed to be replaced by some more fundamental idea. If only they could think of what that idea is. "By convention there is space, by convention time," Dr. David J. Gross, director of the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics and a winner of last year's Nobel Prize, said recently, paraphrasing the Greek philosopher Democritus, "in reality there is. ... ?" his voice trailing off. The issues raised by time travel are connected to these questions, Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a physicist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and author of the book "The Physics of Star Trek," said. "The minute you have time travel you have paradoxes," Dr. Krauss said, explaining that if you can go backward in time you confront fundamental issues like cause and effect or the meaning of your own identity if there can be two of you at once. A refined theory of time would have to explain "how a sensible world could result from something so nonsensical." "That's why time travel is philosophically important and has captivated the public, who care about these paradoxes," he said. At stake, said Dr. Albert, the philosopher and author of his own time book, "Time and Chance," is "what kind of view science presents us of the world." "Physics gets time wrong, and time is the most familiar thing there is," Dr. Albert said. We all feel time passing in our bones, but ever since Galileo and Newton in the 17th century began using time as a coordinate to help chart the motion of cannonballs, time - for physicists - has simply been an "addendum in the address of an event," Dr. Albert said. "There is a feeling in philosophy," he said, "that this picture leaves no room for locutions about flow and the passage of time we experience." Then there is what physicists call "the arrow of time" problem. The fundamental laws of physics don't care what direction time goes, he pointed out. Run a movie of billiard balls colliding or planets swirling around in their orbits in reverse and nothing will look weird, but if you run a movie of a baseball game in reverse people will laugh. Einstein once termed the distinction between past, present and future "a stubborn illusion," but as Dr. Albert said, "It's hard to imagine something more basic than the distinction between the future and the past." The Birth of an Illusion Space and time, the philosopher Augustine famously argued 1,700 years ago, are creatures of existence and the universe, born with it, not separately standing features of eternity. That is the same answer that Einstein came up with in 1915 when he finished his general theory of relativity. That theory explains how matter and energy warp the geometry of space and time to produce the effect we call gravity. It also predicted, somewhat to Einstein's dismay, the expansion of the universe, which forms the basis of modern cosmology. But Einstein's theory is incompatible, mathematically and philosophically, with the quirky rules known as quantum mechanics that describe the microscopic randomness that fills this elegantly curved expanding space-time. According to relativity, nature is continuous, smooth and orderly, in quantum theory the world is jumpy and discontinuous. The sacred laws of physics are correct only on average. Until the pair are married in a theory of so-called quantum gravity, physics has no way to investigate what happens in the Big Bang, when the entire universe is so small that quantum rules apply. Looked at closely enough, with an imaginary microscope that could see lengths down to 10-33 centimeters, quantum gravity theorists say, even ordinary space and time dissolve into a boiling mess that Dr. John Wheeler, the Princeton physicist and phrasemaker, called "space- time foam." At that level of reality, which exists underneath all our fingernails, clocks and rulers as we know them cease to exist. "Everything we know about stops at the Big Bang, the Big Crunch," said Dr. Raphael Bousso, a physicist at the University of California, Berkeley. What happens to time at this level of reality is anybody's guess. Dr. Lee Smolin, of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Ontario, said, "There are several different, very different, ideas about time in quantum gravity." One view, he explained, is that space and time "emerge" from this foamy substrate when it is viewed at larger scales. Another is that space emerges but that time or some deeper relations of cause and effect are fundamental. Dr. Fotini Markopoulou Kalamara of the Perimeter Institute described time as, if not an illusion, an approximation, "a bit like the way you can see the river flow in a smooth way even though the individual water molecules follow much more complicated patterns." She added in an e-mail message: "I have always thought that there has to be some basic fundamental notion of causality, even if it doesn't look at all like the one of the space-time we live in. I can't see how to get causality from something that has none; neither have I ever seen anyone succeed in doing so." Physicists say they have a sense of how space can emerge, because of recent advances in string theory, the putative theory of everything, which posits that nature is composed of wriggling little strings. Calculations by Dr. Juan Maldacena of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton and by others have shown how an extra dimension of space can pop mathematically into being almost like magic, the way the illusion of three dimensions can appear in the holograms on bank cards. But string theorists admit they don't know how to do the same thing for time yet. "Time is really difficult," said Dr. Cumrun Vafa, a Harvard string theorist. "We have not made much progress on the emergence of time. Once we make progress we will make progress on the early universe, on high energy physics and black holes. "We are out on a limb trying to understand what's going on here." Dr. Bousso, an expert on holographic theories of space-time, said that in general relativity time gets no special treatment. He said he expected both time and space to break down, adding, "We really just don't know what's going to go." "There is a lot of mysticism about time," Dr. Bousso said. "Time is what a clock measures. What a clock measures is more interesting than you thought." A Brief History of Time Travel "If we could go faster than light, we could telegraph into the past," Einstein once said. According to the theory of special relativity - which he proposed in 1905 and which ushered E=3Dmc=B2 into the world and set the speed of light as the cosmic speed limit - such telegraphy is not possible, and there is no way of getting back to the past. But, somewhat to Einstein's surprise, in general relativity it is possible to beat a light beam across space. That theory, which Einstein finished in 1916, said that gravity resulted from the warping of space-time geometry by matter and energy, the way a bowling ball sags a trampoline. And all this warping and sagging can create shortcuts through space-time. In 1949, Kurt G=F6del, the Austrian logician and mathematician then at the Institute for Advanced Study, showed that in a rotating universe, according to general relativity, there were paths, technically called "closed timelike curves," you could follow to get back to the past. But it has turned out that the universe does not rotate very much, if at all. Most scientists, including Einstein, resisted the idea of time travel until 1988 when Dr. Kip Thorne, a gravitational theorist at the California Institute of Technology, and two of his graduate students, Dr. Mike Morris and Dr. Ulvi Yurtsever, published a pair of papers concluding that the laws of physics may allow you to use wormholes, which are like tunnels through space connecting distant points, to travel in time. These holes, technically called Einstein-Rosen bridges, have long been predicted as a solution of Einstein's equations. But physicists dismissed them because calculations predicted that gravity would slam them shut. Dr. Thorne was inspired by his friend, the late Cornell scientist and author Carl Sagan, who was writing the science fiction novel "Contact," later made into a Jodie Foster movie, and was looking for a way to send his heroine, Eleanor Arroway, across the galaxy. Dr. Thorne and his colleagues imagined that such holes could be kept from collapsing and thus maintained to be used as a galactic subway, at least in principle, by threading them with something called Casimir energy, (after the Dutch physicist Hendrik Casimir) which is a sort of quantum suction produced when two parallel metal plates are placed very close together. According to Einstein's equations, this suction, or negative pressure, would have an antigravitational effect, keeping the walls of the wormhole apart. If one mouth of a wormhole was then grabbed by a spaceship and taken on a high-speed trip, according to relativity, its clock would run slow compared with the other end of the wormhole. So the wormhole would become a portal between two different times as well as places. Dr. Thorne later said he had been afraid that the words "time travel" in the second paper's title would create a sensation and tarnish his students' careers, and he had forbidden Caltech to publicize it. In fact, their paper made time travel safe for serious scientists, and other theorists, including Dr. Frank Tipler of Tulane University and Dr. Hawking, jumped in. In 1991, for example, Dr. Gott of Princeton showed how another shortcut through space-time could be manufactured using pairs cosmic strings - dense tubes of primordial energy not to be confused with the strings of string theory, left over by the Big Bang in some theories of cosmic evolution - rushing past each other and warping space around them. Harnessing the Dark Side These speculations have been bolstered (not that time machine architects lack imagination) with the unsettling discovery that the universe may be full of exactly the kind of antigravity stuff needed to grow and prop open a wormhole. Some mysterious "dark energy," astronomers say, is pushing space apart and accelerating the expansion of the universe. The race is on to measure this energy precisely and find out what it is. Among the weirder and more disturbing explanations for this cosmic riddle is something called phantom energy, which is so virulently antigravitational that it would eventually rip planets, people and even atoms apart, ending everything. As it happens this bizarre stuff would also be perfect for propping open a wormhole, Dr. Lobo of Lisbon recently pointed out. "This certainly is an interesting prospect for an absurdly advanced civilization, as phantom energy probably comprises of 70 percent of the universe," Dr. Lobo wrote in an e-mail message. Dr. Sergey Sushkov of Kazan State Pedagogical University in Russia has made the same suggestion. In a paper posted on the physics Web site arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/ 0502099, Dr. Lobo suggested that as the universe was stretched and stretched under phantom energy, microscopic holes in the quantum "space-time foam" might grow to macroscopic usable size. "One could also imagine an advanced civilization mining the cosmic fluid for phantom energy necessary to construct and sustain a traversable wormhole," he wrote. Such a wormhole he even speculated, could be used to escape the "big rip" in which a phantom energy universe will eventually end. But nobody knows if phantom, or exotic, energy is really allowed in nature and most physicists would be happy if it is not. Its existence would lead to paradoxes, like negative kinetic energy, where something could lose energy by speeding up, violating what is left of common sense in modern physics. Dr. Krauss said, "From the point of view of realistic theories, phantom energy just doesn't exist." But such exotic stuff is not required for all time machines, Dr. Gott's cosmic strings for example. In another recent paper, Dr. Amos Ori of the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa describes a time machine that he claims can be built by moving around colossal masses to warp the space inside a doughnut of regular empty space into a particular configuration, something an advanced civilization may be able to do in 100 or 200 years. The space inside the doughnut, he said, will then naturally evolve according to Einstein's laws into a time machine. Dr. Ori admits that he doesn't know if his machine would be stable. Time machines could blow up as soon as you turned them on, say some physicists, including Dr. Hawking, who has proposed what he calls the "chronology protection" conjecture to keep the past safe for historians. Random microscopic fluctuations in matter and energy and space itself, they argue, would be amplified by going around and around boundaries of the machine or the wormhole, and finally blow it up. Dr. Gott and his colleague Dr. Li-Xin Li have shown that there are at least some cases where the time machine does not blow up. But until gravity marries quantum theory, they admit, nobody knows how to predict exactly what the fluctuations would be. "That's why we really need to know about quantum gravity," Dr. Gott said. "That's one reason people are interested in time travel." Saving Grandpa But what about killing your grandfather? In a well-ordered universe, that would be a paradox and shouldn't be able to happen, everybody agrees. That was the challenge that Dr. Joe Polchinski, now at the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, Calif., issued to Dr. Thorne and his colleagues after their paper was published. Being a good physicist, Dr. Polchinski phrased the problem in terms of billiard balls. A billiard ball, he suggested, could roll into one end of a time machine, come back out the other end a little earlier and collide with its earlier self, thereby preventing itself from entering the time machine to begin with. Dr. Thorne and two students, Fernando Echeverria and Gunnar Klinkhammer, concluded after months of mathematical struggle that there was a logically consistent solution to the billiard matricide that Dr. Polchinski had set up. The ball would come back out of the time machine and deliver only a glancing blow to itself, altering its path just enough so that it would still hit the time machine. When it came back out, it would be aimed just so as to deflect itself rather than hitting full on. And so it would go like a movie with a circular plot. In other words, it's not a paradox if you go back in time and save your grandfather. And, added Dr. Polchinski, "It's not a paradox if you try to shoot your grandfather and miss." "The conclusion is somewhat satisfying," Dr. Thorne wrote in his book "Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy." "It suggests that the laws of physics might accommodate themselves to time machines fairly nicely." Dr. Polchinski agreed. "I was making the point that the grandfather paradox had nothing to do with free will, and they found a nifty resolution," he said in an e-mail message, adding, nevertheless, that his intuition still tells him time machines would lead to paradoxes. Dr. Bousso said, "Most of us would consider it quite satisfactory if the laws of quantum gravity forbid time
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 28 CIA Monitoring Today's UFO Groups? From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:45:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:00:42 -0400 Subject: CIA Monitoring Today's UFO Groups? We attended the April, 2005, Missouri MUFON meeting in St. Charles, MO. At that beginning of that meeting, MO MUFON State Director Bruce Widaman noted that someone was supposed to be coming to the meeting to videotape that evening. That "someone" -- who showed up (with a second, unnamed assistant) after about a half-hour into the meeting - turned out to be Adam Sorg Adam Sorg used to be the Executive Director of the "Four State Explorers" (4SE), which investigated "spook lights" -- such as the Joplin Spook Light [JSL] -- and ghosts. But, from what he told me, he is no longer involved with 4SE. Adam Sorg had previously (a few years ago) given a presentation on the "Joplin Spook Light" (JSL) at one of the MO MUFON meetings. After I recommended him to Lou Farish, a couple of years ago, he also gave a Sunday JSL presentation at the Ozark UFO Conf. (OUFOC) in Eureka Springs. Note: As of this writing, the 4SE web site is apparently still "active." Here=92s it=92s URL: http://www.4stateexplorers.freewebspace.com Curiously, Adam Sorg came to another MO MUFON meeting a couple of months ago. At that meeting, he unobtrusively came into the meeting room - about half-way into the 3-hour meeting - and took a seat back in a corner where he quietly sat. (He never said a word during the meeting itself.) After the meeting was over at (9:30pm), we got up to leave. That=92s when Adam immediately came over to me. I said "Hi Adam" to him and asked how it was going with the 4SE. That =92s when he told me he was no longer with the 4SE group, and that he no longer was in the southwest Missouri area (where he was a college student), but was now a college student in Columbia, MO. Adam said he wanted to do an interview with me. He said he now was an "anthropology" student. I noticed something a little strange while Sorg was asking me if he could "interview" me. His writing hand was shaking=85literally uncontrollably. I told him that we were headed to the grocery store and I didn=92t have time right then. He wanted to contact me via e-mail, but I declined. I told him instead that if he might be going to the April, 2005, OUFOC in Eureka Springs, I might see him there then. (As far as I know, he did not attend the 2005 OUFOC.) Bruce Widaman came up to Adam (as we were talking) and said to Adam: "I would have introduced you to the group when you came in late, but you had told me that you just wanted to come to tonight=92s meeting =91unannounced=92 and just =91observe=92." (As I mentioned above, that=92s exactly what Sorg did=85as he sat in the corner constantly taking notes during the latter half of that meeting.) I next saw Sorg at the (above-mentioned) May, 2005, MO MUFON meeting, after Adam Sorg (and his second cameraman/assistant) showed up, Bruce Widaman asked Adam to explain to the group why he wanted to videotape the rest of the meeting. Sorg said it was for his "anthropological studies" class. Sorg assured Bruce and us that the videotape would be for "class studies." He said that he would provide a copy of the videotape to Bruce, and that he (Sorg) would not even be keeping a copy of the videotape himself. After that, Sorg did proceed to video the rest of the meeting. Bob S. --- [Having noted the above, I have come across a very interesting BBC News June 2, 2005, article. It very may well be just a curious coincidence. (And, I sure hope that=92s all there is to it!) But, just in case, here=92s the article, along with it=92s URL.]: --- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4603271.stm BBC NEWS Published: 2005/06/02 12:32:08 GMT c. BBC MMV Fears over CIA =91university spies=92 A CIA scheme to sponsor trainee spies secretly through US university courses has caused anger among UK academics. The Pat Roberts Intelligence Scholars Program pays anthropology students, whose names are not disclosed, up to $50,000 (=A327,500) a year. They are expected to use the techniques of "fieldwork" to gather political and cultural details on other countries. Britain=92s Association of Social Anthropologists called the scholarships ethically "dangerous" and divisive. =91Detailed knowledge=92 The ASA=92s president, John Gledhill, told the BBC News website the scholarships could foster suspicion within universities worldwide and cause problems in the field. He said: "Anthropologists go all over the world for long periods and gain detailed knowledge of places, such as Iraq or South America. "This is information which would be useful in security circles, which is not what anthropology is for." Social anthropology: the study of (esp. primitive) peoples comparatively through their kinship systems, associations, institutions, culture, etc, and the forces that affect their social systems - Oxford English Dictionary Undergraduates taking part in the scholarship programme must not reveal their funding source and are expected to attend military intelligence summer camps. Dr Gledhill said: "If we are writing about sensitive areas, we anonymise place names and, often, people. If research enables people to identify human beings, there is no guarantee that nothing harmful is going to happen. "There is also the suspicion factor. If people on the ground in foreign countries get the idea that some anthropologists work for the CIA, then they are not going to feel like being very friendly." The $4m (=A32.2m) Pat Roberts scholarships were launched in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks to improve US intelligence gathering. The CIA=92s website says that a "number of scholarships are awarded to highly qualified students specialising in critical subject areas". Scholars are expected to go on to work for its directorate of intelligence. The website also says: "While the CIA does not make foreign policy, our analysis of intelligence on overseas developments feeds into the informed decisions by policymakers and other senior decision makers in the national security and defence arenas." Dr Gledhill said the ASA would review its code of ethics to cover the initiative. However, Felix Moos, an anthropology professor at the University of Kansas, defended the scholarships.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 UFO Interest Is Up This Month From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:36:03 -0400 Subject: UFO Interest Is Up This Month Must be a slow day for news, now Yahoo wants in on it. Seems like There has been a 14% increase in online UFO searches this month.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:08:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:47:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>To: >ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 >13:35:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:47:49 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Governor's UFO Fleet Sighting In Xalapa Mexico ><snip> >I heard you briefly on Coast to Coast being interviewed by LMH! Hi Larry, That must have been the one I did last year in Las Vegas >As for the Xalapa sighting, I don't have Santiago's original >message, but I think I recall that he indicated a trio of >lights in triangle formation. >There was no mention of maneuvers, instead the trio moved >slowly if at all, and was seen for quite a while. >This suggests (for me at least) NOSS satellites or similar, >i.e. ocean surveillance spy satellites which are deployed in >triangular formation. I saw those myself one night a couple of years ago, they are a real possibility for some of the reports we get. In space they are actually about 21-23 kilometers apart. They slipped across the sky from horizon to horizon in a straight line. ><snip> >http://www.eclipsetours.com/sat/class.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 AUFORN Public Meetings From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:55:38 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:08:26 -0400 Subject: AUFORN Public Meetings Australian UFO Research Network Meetings Brisbane, QLD - Springwood Community Centre at corner of Cinderella Drive and Vanessa Blvd, Springwood. First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 5 August, 7 October and 2 December Gold Coast, QLD - Community Centre, Lawson Street, Southport (next to RSL). First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 1 July, 2 September and 4 November Melbourne, VIC - Clayton RSL, 193 Carinish Road, Clayton. Second Sunday of the month, 7.00 pm Next Meeting: 11 September, and 11 December Contact Details:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:54:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:10:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:22 -0700 >Subject: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/science/28time.html >June 28, 2005 >Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >By Dennis Overbye >There was a conference for time travelers at M.I.T. >earlier this spring. >I'm still hoping to attend, and although the odds are slim, >they are apparently not zero despite the efforts and hopes of >deterministically minded physicists who would like to eliminate >the possibility of your creating a paradox by going back in >time and killing your grandfather. >"No law of physics that we know of prohibits time travel," said >Dr. J. Richard Gott, a Princeton astrophysicist. <snip> What an interesting read!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:45:16 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:13:11 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End - Bourdais >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:20:22 +0200 >Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:40:01 -0400 >>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:16:55 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Review - Roswell - The End >>>Just three questions to anybody who cares to answer: >>You said three questions, but only asked two. Is there a third? >>>1) Has been "the cameraman" clearly and definitely identified >>>and his credentials cheked? >>Yes and no. Ray Santilli says he has done this, but he has not >>shared the info with anyone because he pledged to keep the >>cameraman's name confidential as long as he is alive. >So I have to believe in the word of one person who has gained a >lot of money precisely because he avoids to give evidences. >Why the secret? Of course, his employers know perfectly who >he is, so the cameraman is really much more secure if he reveals >himself. It seems logical to suppose that the identity of the cameraman is known. Unless there is no real cameraman. If he is only a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: CIA Monitoring Today's UFO Groups? - Boitte From: Franck Boitte <Franckboitte.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:46:41 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:20:38 -0400 Subject: Re: CIA Monitoring Today's UFO Groups? - Boitte >From: Bob Soetebier <rks1.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:45:20 -0500 >Subject: CIA Monitoring Today's UFO Groups? <snip> >Curiously, Adam Sorg came to another MO MUFON meeting a couple >of months ago. At that meeting, he unobtrusively came into the >meeting room - about half-way into the 3-hour meeting - and took >a seat back in a corner where he quietly sat. (He never said a >word during the meeting itself.) >After the meeting was over at (9:30pm), we got up to leave. >That's when Adam immediately came over to me. Hi UFO UpDaters, That's not fresh news. In 1992, I was giving a conference entitled "Has planet Earth been visited by 1, 100 or 1 000 extraterrestrials civilisations". Weather conditions were awful, advertisment had been minimal and street impairment was in the progress at the place where the conference had to take place. So, the number of listeners ranged merely to about 15 people ! My conference was on its way since about 10 minutes when two peculiar people (one man, one woman) entered in. I will not describe them in detail, except to say they were well dressed in a classical way and for sure looked "special". They settled themselves at the first rank of chairs and the man very politely asked if I had any reservation about him audiotaping what I said. I agreed and went on with my expose. When it was terminated, I as usual asked if someone had questions. A few had, but the two late comers remained on their seats without uttering a word. When no one seemed to have questions left, I was proceeding to range my material (there had been a projection of dias) when the man came to me while his female companion stayed a few feet away. She never adressed me. The man only asked one question about the possibility of the launching and building in space a neutral gravity point orbiting satellite that should concentrate solar energy to a downearth plant, which I had alluded in my expos=C3=A9. We discussed the matter for a few moments, me doing most of the speaking, he thanked me and left. The conference was repeated at various places but I never met
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: UFO Interest Is Up This Month - Feindt From: Carl Feindt <waterufo.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:52:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:41:41 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Interest Is Up This Month - Feindt >From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:39:03 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: UFO Interest Is Up This Month >Must be a slow day for news, now Yahoo wants in on it. Seems >like There has been a 14% increase in online UFO searches this >month. >http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzz_log/entry/2005/06/28/0400/ Hello William, Not much of a surprise there Today is the start of War of the Worlds Yesterdays TV schedule 7 pm -: 7:00 Sci-Fi channel UFOs 50 Years of Denial 8:00 History channel New UFO Revelations: The Grays Agenda Turner Classic Movies It came from outer space 9:30 Turner Classic Movies Close Encounter of the 3rd kind 10:00 Sci-Fi Martian Mania 1 hr on the movie W of the W *** TCM had three other UFO shows for the late people after 12M
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:23:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:44:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:22 -0700 >Subject: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/science/28time.html >June 28, 2005 >Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >By >Dennis Overbye >There was a conference for time travelers at M.I.T. earlier this >spring. >I'm still hoping to attend, and although the odds are slim, they >are apparently not zero despite the efforts and hopes of >deterministically minded physicists who would like to eliminate >the possibility of your creating a paradox by going back in >t>ime and killing your grandfather. Very interesting article. Makes me wonder - what if memory takes up space? Then the longer the universe lasts the more space is taken up by memory so could it be possible that this explains why the universe is expanding....to make space for memory? But what is memory? The recollection ("memory") of past configurations of objects/molecules/atoms/subatomic particles/etc. that are in the universe. A memory is a "mapping" of all these configurations onto/into
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:52:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:46:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:22 -0700 >Subject: Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/science/28time.html >June 28, 2005 >Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time >By >Dennis Overbye >There was a conference for time travelers at M.I.T. earlier this >spring. ><snip> >"That's why we really need to know about quantum gravity," Dr. >Gott said. "That's one reason people are interested in time >travel." ><snip> http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0764544802.html St. Augustine's Confessions Chapter Analyses Book 11, Chapters 1-31 http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/id-166,pageNum-68.html People ask what God was doing in the time before he created the world. Augustine replies that there was no time, because God created time itself. Augustine considers the nature of time. One can speak of past, present, and future time, but the past has ceased to be, the future is not yet, and only the present exists, but the present moment cannot have any duration. http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/id-166,pageNum-69.html So if time is not divine and transcendent, what is it? Augustine embarks on an analysis of time that quickly becomes absurd: The distinguishing characteristic of time is that it tends toward non-existence! If neither the past nor the future exist, then only an infinitesimally small moment of the present can be said to actually exist. "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jun > Jun 29 NASA Video Of 'Spheres' In Space - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:33:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:48:30 -0400 Subject: NASA Video Of 'Spheres' In Space - Velez Hello All, If the same metallic, spherical objects that are being recorded in Mexico and elsewhere were to be recorded navigating in space it would make a very powerful case for the (possible) ET origin of these objects/craft. Well, such "proof" has existed since 1999 when a Vancouver cable TV station manager named Martyn Stubbs came forward with the most compelling evidence of all for 'ET' owned and operated 'UFOs'... he recorded thousands of hours worth of NASA transmissions from shuttle missions (that span a number of years) using the TV stations' elaborate satellite gear. On Tuesday, 19th Sept. 2000 Anthony Chippendale filed a report to UFO UpDates on the 19th Leeds International UFO Conference. I quote from the part of his report that is relevant to this post: Anthony wrote: "Martyn Stubbs (Canada) Martyn Stubbs, as well as being the penultimate speaker of the weekend, was also one of the best. Martyn travelled to England to speak at the conference at extreme risk to his health. Unfortunately, Martyn is suffering from a brain tumour; although it was made clear whether or not it is terminal. For those of you who are unaware of who Martyn Stubbs is, he is a former cable TV station manager from Canada who, over a period of five years, recorded over 2,500 hours of NASA footage from space shuttle missions. This footage shows several 'phenomena' in space, which, some people believe (including me), are intelligently controlled spacecraft. For those of you who want to find out more about the 'secret NASA transmissions' email anthonyc.nul and I will be happy to provide you with background information to. Martyn brought with him some new, unseen footage, which was truly astounding. It is very hard to describe the footage in words, you have to see it to understand and believe it! I believe that within the next few years this will footage will change Ufology for the better. I believe that it is the final 'proof' that people like myself have been searching for." I am in complete agreement with Anthony's assessment. More, when viewed in the light of all the sightings and recordings that are coming from Mexico, the evidence presented by Mr. Stubbs' recordings of these objects navigating in space, virtually 'makes the case' for the ET origin of the spheres that are being sighted in our skies. I very strongly recommend that anyone who is looking into the Mexican video recordings secure a copy of 'The Secret NASA Transmissions' and review it carefully. The closing few scenes are bone-chilling to watch. We are _not_ alone! The same objects that are being recorded in the skies over Mexico have been recorded navigating in space by NASA. James Oberg has never debated Mr. Stubbs. That is one exchange I would love to see. I know Mr. Oberg is starting to get on in years, but it'll be interesting watching his version of the 'quick step' as he confronts some of the irrefutable material that Mr. Stubbs has gathered and present ed to the world. If anyone is willing to pay the nominal cost of a CD including mailing & *handling (I would have to burn copies individually, bag em, tag em and get em over to the USPS) I would be happy to provide copies in .avi format for any List member who may want one. Either secure a copy on the Web or contact me privately off-list. This is vital data/information that needs to see the light of day. Buy, borrow or steal a copy of the Secret NASA Transmissions if you have to, but by any and all means, see it! It is, bar none, the most convincing and compelling evidence that at least some UFO phenomena is of ET origin. Compare these objects recorded in space, with the ones being recorded in Mexico. It's guaranteed to send a bit of electricity racing up your spine.