UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His Field From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:32:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:32:40 -0400 Subject: UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His Field Source: Northwich Chronicle, Cheshire, UK http://tinyurl.com/b83ly Jun 29 2005 UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His Field By Anthony Harvison Northwich Chronicle The usual cry among UFO experts is 'look to the skies', but you may actually help Mid Cheshire researchers more by looking at the ground. Ufologist Eric Morris is asking the public and farmers to report any un-usual crop circles in fields. Eric, 51, is carrying out an investigation on the phenomena with other members of the British UFO Studies Centre - the organisation he founded in Northwich 20 years ago. Eric believes they may be close to finding the true cause of crop circles. 'I wouldn't say they're caused by alien intelligence. What we've been researching over the years is to do with the weather,' he explained. The likely cause, according to Eric, is a phenomenon known as 'fair-weather whirlwinds'. 'Over the summer it can be really, really hot one day and freezing the next and in those weather systems you get hot and cold air hitting each other. 'The cold air drops through gravity and gets spun around on the ground - it's got density to it and it knocks down crops and makes circles. We have been researching for many years now and think we might be on the right path.' But there are other possible explanations, he conceded. 'The second phenomenon is something called 'ball lightning', which again takes place in the summer time. 'I was speaking to some people last year who had been in Wiltshire 20 years ago and had seen a silver ball land in a field and within 30 seconds a crop circle had formed.' But what about 'intra-terrestrial' hoaxers, surely ambitious pranksters with an A-level in Geometry could be the real culprits? 'A lot of crop circles are man-made,' said Eric, of Booth Lane, Middlewich. 'But you can find similar crop circles in remote parts where no one could get to unless they landed by helicopter.' The only way of discovering the truth is by continued investigation, but Eric says that is difficult as not many people are reporting formations: 'It's a pity because if they did we could add them to our own data and also national and international libraries of crop circles. 'The information goes round the world and that's why it's really important if you do see them to report them to us.' BUFOSC members will follow any leads supplied, after asking permission of the farmer prior to entry to his field. They fully-document the investigation using state-of-the art video and audio recording equipment and transfer their findings to DVD. Later this year, the team will be delving into a case down in Suffolk, which has been dubbed the 'British Roswell' - the infamous Rendlesham Forest UFO landing of 1980. 'Something actually landed in the forest and it was all hushed up by the nearby USAF base at Bentwaters,' said Eric. 'No-one would release the documents and BUFOSC decided to go to the Parliamentary ombudsman and force them to be released. 'No-one had done anything like this before and we were told we didn't stand a cat in hell's chance, but we won.' Eric is hoping to publish these never-before seen declassified documents later this year, but that's not all. 'We've reason to believe there was a second landing sight on a spot that's now covered up and we are hoping to go down with a Geiger counter and other equipment and expose it - we've got a documentary company interested in filming it.' There has also been interest from a company wishing to make a documentary on alien abductions - a field in which Eric is still a leading figure, even though he admits he hasn't been actively researching it for some time. 'I've got many cases that I've not released to the Press because I've not had the time, and I respect people's confidentiality,' he said. 'There was a case in Chester and one nearby in Wales and they stick very prominently in my mind - I would say they were the two most genuine cases ever to take place in Britain.' At this point many readers will possibly be dismissing Eric's research as the work of a crank, but it doesn't faze the man at all. 'A lot of people who claim to be abducted are nutcases but I don't think I'm a UFO nut,' said Eric. 'I have a degree in higher education and I'm a registered nurse, and that's a lot of responsibility to put in the hands of a nut! 'It's a thing I've been doing since the 70s and, yes, I've seen
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Cruise Believes In Aliens From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:37:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:37:45 -0400 Subject: Cruise Believes In Aliens Source: Ananova.Com http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1445342.html 01 July 2005 Tom: I believe in aliens Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. According to German tabloid Bild he said: "Of course I believe in aliens. "Are you really so arrogant to believe we are alone in unending space?" he added.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Flight Of Fancy From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:40:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:40:42 -0400 Subject: Flight Of Fancy Source: The Guardian, UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,1517196,00.html Thursday June 30, 2005 Flight Of Fancy by Mark Pilkington In 1952, New Zealand airline pilot Bruce Cathie's life changed for ever. From Manukau Harbour, Auckland, he watched as a bright white light, accompanied by a smaller red light, "carried out manoeuvres that no known man-made vehicle could accomplish at that time". He'd seen his first UFO. Collating all the information he could on the subject, Cathie discovered the work of French ufologist Aim=E9 Michel who, in the early 1950s, proposed that UFOs travelled the world by following straight lines between specific waypoints. As a pilot, the theory made sense to Cathie, who began to plot UFO "flight paths" around New Zealand. Before long, he had charted a complex, radial grid system over the entire country. But UFOs were being spotted all over the world. It was time to expand. The key emerged on August 29 1964, some 3,900 metres beneath the ocean west of Cape Horn, when a strange object was photographed by the underwater camera of the Oceanographic Research Vessel Eltanin. Described by a New Zealand newspaper as looking "something like a complex radio aerial", the Eltanin object was just what Cathie was looking for - an alien navigation beacon. Using a plastic sphere, he was able to align his NZ energy grid and the "aerial" precisely. He now had his global grid. But it didn't stop there. "Finally," wrote Cathie in 1994, "after years of work, I discovered that I could formulate a series of harmonic unified equations which indicated that the whole of physical reality was in fact manifested by a complex pattern of interlocking wave forms. I gradually found that the harmonic values could be applied to all branches of scientific research and atomic theory." Over a series of books, beginning with Harmonic 33 (1968), Cathie rewrote the rules of spacetime, worked out that atomic bombs could only be detonated at a "specific time in relation to the geometrics of the solar system" and even improved Einstein's theory of relativity to create the harmonic unified field equation, E =3D [c + (l/c)]c2 which, simply put, demonstrates that "all of creation is light".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Remember Flim-Flam From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:43:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:43:36 -0400 Subject: Remember Flim-Flam Source: MSN.Com http://slate.msn.com/id/2121239/ Wednesday, June 22, 2005 Remember Flim-Flam How to be a modern skeptic By Daniel Engber In line to get my badge for this year's skeptics conference in Pasadena, Calif., I recognized the little man standing behind me. He was bald, with a full, white beard, and he looked older than I would have imagined. "Excuse me," he said, "is this the line for the skeptics meeting?" When I nodded, he looked me up and down and replied, "Oh, I doubt that." Ladies and gentlemen, meet the world's most famous skeptic, the Amazing Randi. I was in the seventh grade when I first came across Flim-Flam! Psychics, ESP, Unicorns, and Other Delusions, Randi's 1980 classic of the early skeptics movement. When I got on board=97as a fan, if not a true believer=97the group was entrenched in a slugfest with the flourishing occult business. The skeptics were a feisty group of scientists, philosophers, magicians, and atheists, united by their dedication to rational thought and their intolerance of credulity. Randi, a professional magician and escape artist who once dangled upside down in a straitjacket over Niagara Falls, joined up with Paul Kurtz, a philosophy professor in upstate New York, who had himself taken on newspaper astrologers. In 1976, Kurtz formed the Committee for the Scientific Inquiry Into Claims of the Paranormal to explain, expose, dispel, and debunk the supernatural and all its practitioners. For decades, CSICOP's members did all of that with fierce passion. But in recent years the skeptics' enthusiasm for debunking has begun to subside. Kurtz now disowns the practice, instead favoring what he calls a "positive" defense of science and reason. Michael Shermer, the historian of science whose California-based Skeptics Society hosted the conference in Pasadena, also avoids the D-word. He'd rather talk about why people are fooled by supernatural hoaxes than spend his time debunking them. His group has doused the activism of CSICOP's early days with a program of research, lectures, and meetings. Why have the skeptics grown so dreary? Their tactics have changed to reflect a new set of targets. What was once a movement to take down television psychics and fortunetellers now concentrates on mainstream foes like President George W. Bush, Intelligent Design theorists, and opponents of stem-cell research. A tedious battle against the modern bugaboos of religion and politics demands tedious tactics and more manpower. Today the skeptics comprise an alliance of interest groups, only a subset of whom even call themselves skeptics. A recent effort to choose a common name for the movement failed miserably=97perhaps because the proposed appellation managed to sound both arrogant and New Age-y. Many of these subgroups have their own societies and annual meetings, and the Skeptics Society conference I went to is one stop on the circuit. In keeping with Shermer's philosophy, the meeting in Pasadena had little to do with the supernatural. A parade of invited speakers provided popular-science lectures on the workings of the human brain, without reference to the paranormal or the occult. When the Amazing Randi finally took the stage as the keynote speaker on the last night of the conference, he seemed almost retro. Randi had for decades used his insider's knowledge of the flim- flam trade to humiliate a generation of occultists. Chief among his trophies was Uri Geller, an Israeli-born, disco-era mentalist who claimed, among other things, that he had the ability to soften metal and move a compass needle with his mind. Geller appeared on talk shows and magazine covers, and several academic researchers said they had validated his powers in the lab. Randi cleverly challenged Geller as a magician. He mimicked Geller's tricks using sleight of hand and then explained how they were done. In 1973, Randi went for the kill, conspiring with Johnny Carson (who was himself an amateur magician) to trap Geller on live TV. At Randi's instruction, producers on the Tonight Show provided all the props for Geller's act and didn't let him on the set before the cameras rolled. The plan worked, and a squirming Geller was unable to perform a single trick. The video clip of his on-air collapse remains a cherished keepsake of diehard skeptics. (Today Geller is best-known as a close personal friend to Michael Jackson.) Since that glorious display of public humiliation, the Amazing Randi has taken on levitators, psychic surgeons, dowsers, and astrologers. In 1999, he debunked homeopathic remedies for insomnia by swallowing an entire bottle of "natural" sleeping pills in front of a congressional committee. His provocative and grandiose style has landed him in court more than once=97Geller made several attempts to sue him, for example=97and Randi says most of the $272,000 MacArthur "genius" grant he received two decades ago was spent on legal bills. Today, the closest thing Randi has to successors are the magician-debunkers Penn & Teller (whose half-hour TV show, Bullshit, tries to avoid legal liability by calling con-men "assholes" instead of "fakes"). As the man who inspired so many people to join the skeptics early on, Randi remains a principal attraction at society meetings, even as the movement officially heads in a new direction. Before he took the stage on the last night of the conference, Shermer introduced him with the clip of Uri Geller's unmasking on The Tonight Show. Randi walked on to multiple standing ovations; a woman bounded up from the audience to give him a hug. Shermer and Randi sat on chairs near the front of the stage, as if for a quiet chat. But it wasn't long before Randi began to sway with emotion. He choked up while describing a little boy who had been deceived by a charlatan faith healer. And then, in a burst of bravado, his voice surged to the last row of the auditorium: "They're fakes, they're phonies, they're scoundrels =85 and they need to be behind bars!" The skeptics in Pasadena went crazy. After days of restrained, informational talks, here was someone with a flair for theater=97a rabble-rousing activist. But if Randi's words inspired us, it wasn't clear exactly what we were inspired to do or to whom we should do it. To us, Uri Geller seemed small-time: The enemies we had in mind were fundamentalist ideologues, like the ones on the Kansas school board who have tried to demote evolution in the science curriculum. That's the conundrum of the modern skeptics movement: Intelligent Design theorists and deniers of global warming may very well be phonies and scoundrels, but no one is going to debunk them in the classic sense. You can't reveal their hidden microphones or mimic their tricks with sleight of hand. Intelligent Design, after all, is an attempt to recast (even to "rebunk") Creationism in scientific terms. The best weapon against it isn't dramatic expos=E9, but scientific argument. So a change in tactics makes sense for the movement. Still, the fervent response to Randi's tirade suggests a deep- seated nostalgia for old-fashioned debunking. In the end, it's just more fun to see a fake like Geller squirm than it is to hear a science lecture. Supernatural scammers may not be the most dangerous opponents of reason, but why not knock a few off every now and again to rally the troops? After all, protests from academic scientists aren't exactly changing the world. Reports on climate change are still vetted by industry flunkies, and the federal government remains unwilling to fully support stem-cell research. With few victories to inspire us, let's keep on debunking. If only for old-times' sake. Related in SlateIn 2004, Dennis Cass reviewed Penn & Teller's Bullshit!, and Jim Holt challenged atheists to prove that God doesn't exist. The Catholic Church apologized in 2000 for burning a 16th-century friar who called Jesus a very gifted magician. In 1998, Jack Shafer admitted he wasn't skeptical enough when it came to Stephen Glass' stories because he wanted them to be true. In his obituary of Johnny Carson, David Edelstein described his own visit to the skeptics' convention, and the $100,000 check that Carson had sent to the Amazing Randi with a note that read, "The enclosed is to help you educate Larry King and Montel Williams."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Lightning Under A Cloud From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:46:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:46:07 -0400 Subject: Lightning Under A Cloud Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss sciencehttp://www.science-frontiers.com Science Frontiers, No. 160, Jul-Aug 2005, pp. 3 & 4 Geophysics Lightning under a cloud In the textbooks, lightning generation seems so simple. The thunderstorm updrafts and falling precipitation create a vast electrostatic generator - something like a giant van de Graaff machine! But even in 1977, the accepted theory of cloud electrification was a bit vague: Cumulonimbus clouds, which produce lightning, contain strongly upward-moving air and frequently extend to altitudes higher than 40,000 feet. Within these clouds, various factors act to cause the creation and separation of electric charge. Conflicting theories have been proposed to explain the electrification. (*McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology*, 7:574, 1977) Two observations have bedeviled this simplistic view. (1) The electric fields measured in thunderstorms are typically 300-400 kilovolts/meter, only 1/10 of what is required to create a lightning discharge. (2) Lightning discharges proceed in disjointed steps and branches. They are far from being simple sparks. In 1975, 253 years after Ben Franklin, J. Dwyer at the Florida Institute of Technology admitted: Nobody understands what's going on here. You have a lot of people guessing, but we are really clueless. After a couple hundred years, it's actually quite embarrassing. Then, in 1992, Russian scientist A. Gurevich proposed that terrestrial lightning was actually triggered when cosmic rays smashing into the earth's atmosphere caused a runaway discharge of charged particles that overcame the too-weak terrestrial electrical fields. The runaway breakdown idea was a good one, but there just are not enough cosmic rays strong enough to account for all the lightning that is observed. More recently, Dwyer has noticed that gamma-ray flashes in thunderclouds seem to be correlated with lightning flashes. But here, again, there do not seem to be enough gamma-ray flashes to trigger all the lightning that occurs. So, lightning and its crooked, branching structure still do[es] not have good explanations. (Gosline, Anna; "Thunderbolts from Space," *New Scientist*, p. 30, May 7, 2005) Comment: Those gamma-ray flashes from clouds are not well- understood either.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 TIGER - Transient Ionospheric Glow Emission In Red From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:47:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:47:55 -0400 Subject: TIGER - Transient Ionospheric Glow Emission In Red Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss Source: http://www.science-frontiers.com SCIENCE FRONTIERS, No. 160, Jul-Aug 2005, p. 4 GEOPHYSICS TIGER - Transient Ionospheric Glow Emission in Red January 20, 2003, Aboard the Space Shuttle Columbia Before this Shuttle's tragic breakup on February 1, a video camera on board was snapping photos during a study of atmospheric dust. One frame, just 33 milliseconds long, captured a mysterious red glow in the night sky 150 kilometers above the ocean near Madagascar. This luminous phenomenon was quite unlike the sprites and elves seen above active thunderstorms. In fact, the nearest lightning discharges were about 800 kilometers distant. Meteors, too, could be eliminated because they leave long bright streaks lasting for hundreds of milliseconds---much longer than TIGER. TIGER remains an unsolved problem. (McKee, Maggie; "*Columbia* Crew Saw New Atmospheric Phenomenon," *NewScientist.com* News Service, January 19, 2005. Cr. H.H. Henry) *Similar Phenomena*. Checking our volume *Remarkable Luminous Phenomena*, we find three catalog entries that bear some resemblance to TIGER: GLA14 Transient Sky Brightenings; GLA24 Millisecond Brightness Pulsations of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Of Universes And Intelligent Designers From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:47:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:51:32 -0400 Subject: Of Universes And Intelligent Designers Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss http://www.science-frontiers.com SCIENCE FRONTIERS, No. 160, Jul-Aug 2005, p. 4 UNCLASSIFIED Let us speak of universes and intelligent designers The latest number of the 'Journal of Irreproducible Results', a science-humor magazine, had fun with an article on the Intelligent Designer (ID) hypothesis. We have the temerity to reproduce one paragraph from said article because it harks back to SF#81, where there was speculation about multiple universes. In said universes, it was proposed, the values of physical constants might change or be changed so as to make them fitter in terms of longevity, reproducibility, or some other criterion. Pretty weird stuff, but what do we mere humans know about the teleology of universes? Universes seeming to us to be merely vast assemblages of luminous and dark matter may be much more - something akin to the entity in F. Hoyle's classic sci-fi novel 'The Black Cloud'. Anyway, here is the promised paragraph from the 'Journal of Irreproducible Results'. Remember this is a humor magazine where anything goes! With our increasing ability to manipulate genes, based on our ever-enlarging knowledge of the genetic code, eventually humanity will gain the ability to be virtually immortal, if bare-handed solo mountain climbing and hang-gliding are avoided in favor of selecting sedentary continuing accredited courses. It's easy to envision a future where our descendants will explore the universe; perhaps to find other intelligent species. It's possible that we might even meet the hypothetical species we call "The Intelligent Designers", assuming they want to be bothered with us. As our progeny explore other solar systems, should they find a sterile planet, they may want to "seed" it with species bioengineered to thrive there; thus, future humanity may well become "intelligent designers". The inhabitants of such a world may eventually speculate and contemplate about their origins as they turn their multifaceted eyes upward. We hasten to add here that the proponents of Intelligent Design do 'not' insist that an Intelligent Designer be supernatural or even singular. Indeed, the quoted paragraph leaves room for such possibilities. In this light, the populations of competing universes mentioned in SF#81 could be the works of 'different' Intelligent Designers in competition with each other. Their criterion for success might be life-containing universes that include intelligent but 'not' self-destructing lifeforms. Or, there may be criteria that are beyond our comprehension and toward which the Intelligent Designer of 'our' universe is presently striving and we are but partial steps along the way! (Kirschbaum, Joel; 'Journal of Irreproducible Results', 49:27, March 2005.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 1938 Radio Show War Of The Worlds From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:01:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:53:30 -0400 Subject: 1938 Radio Show War Of The Worlds An account of a Minnesota small town's reaction to the 1938 'War of the Worlds' radio broadcast, as remembered by a then-kid who lived in the town. It's a nice read: Harry Herder distinctly remembers Martians not landing on Earth the night before Halloween in 1938. The whole time his dad and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 FUGO Balloon Shot Down Over Alturas - 1945 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:03:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:03:28 -0400 Subject: FUGO Balloon Shot Down Over Alturas - 1945 Source: Frank Warren's Blog http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ FUGO Balloon Shot Down Over Alturas [Picture] [Click To View: http://tinyurl.com/8coam] FUGO Balloon Tested at Moffett Field By Frank Warren 6-30-05 The FUGO or "Windship Weapon" pictured above was shot down over Alturas, California on January 10th, 1945. Although the balloon was filled with hydrogen and carried a bomb, the bullets from the P-38 sent up to do the deed did not cause it to ignite.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:06:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:06:26 -0400 Subject: Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' Source: Frank Warren's Blog http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ July 01, 2005 Is Timing Everything As Related to the Roswell Incident? By Dennis Balthaser 7-1-05 www.truthseekeratroswell.com As this editorial is being written, we�re again approaching the anniversary of the 1947 Roswell Incident, for the 58th time. It continues to amaze me as a researcher that after 58 years we have still not been given a satisfactory explanation of what happened here in Roswell, and consequently both the researchers interested in the incident, as well as the skeptics and debunkers continue to pursue their particular �take� on the incident. Will we ever know what actually happened here in 1947? Some think we will never know, while others claim we already know, and still others are in between. One thing that does seem consistent, at least to me, is the fact that on several occasions in the recent past, coming out with �new� information has been timed to coincide with the anniversary date of the Incident. By coincidence or for publicity, promotion of books, or reports about the Roswell Incident is probably good salesmanship, because every year for the past several years the Roswell Incident has garnered media attention during the anniversary period around July 4th. This year will probably be no different, with several thousand people that are interested or maybe just curious converging on the town of Roswell to try and find the truth. It�s my thinking however that the truth will not be revealed during this year�s anniversary here in Roswell, but as on several occasions in the past, new information is being distributed, this time in the form of a new book by UFO Researcher Nick Redfern entitled, �Body Snatchers in the Desert; The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story�, which I�ll discuss later. One of the problems I�ve experienced with these �final answers� to the Roswell Incident books is their lack of references or factual information to support their claims. Three other examples of well-timed documents are the 1995 United States Air Force Report, �The Roswell Report: Fact versus Fiction in the New Mexico Desert� and the 1997 report, �Case Closed�, and Lt. Col. Phil Corso�s book �The Day After Roswell�. �Case Closed� and Corso�s book were released (escaped) in 1997, pretty much in conjunction with the 50th anniversary of the Roswell Incident. I am well familiar with the need for confidentiality when it comes to this research. I learned many years ago from Stanton Friedman that there are situations where the only way to obtain information, is to guarantee the persons confidentiality. Such was the case for me, several years ago when researcher Wendy Connors and I interviewed a key Roswell witness for three and a half hours on video tape, and have since copyrighted the information for posterity. We will eventually go public with the information, at a time that is appropriate for Ms. Connors and I, and do not plan on using unnamed witnesses or vague information. What we will present is what was recorded on videotape. I also believe that when the United States Air Force or an individual goes public in book or report form, it is essential that all information be made public in order that it might be confirmed or denied and some form of finality can be addressed about the information presented. The memorandum that Colonel Richard Weaver wrote to the Secretary of the Air Force pertaining to New Mexico Congressman Steven Shiff�s request for an investigation by the General Accounting Office (GAO) about the Roswell Incident was dated July 27, 1994. That July date was possibly a coincidence date- wise, since the actual report was dated in 1995. I have tried for several years through Freedom of Information Act requests to obtain detailed information about some of the comments Col. Weaver made in the 1995 report about the �Ramey photos� to no avail. I simply want to obtain copies of the reports done by a national laboratory, according to Weaver, on those photographs for the Air Force report. If the photos were analyzed as Weaver states, make the information available. On June 24 1997 when the United States Air Force revealed their �The Roswell Report: Case Closed�, it was made public 10 days prior to the 50th anniversary of the Roswell Incident. The timing for the release of that report was absolutely astonishing, since Roswell was receiving worldwide exposure for the 50th anniversary. I don�t need to go into any detail about the absurd remarks made in that report about crash test dummies, which were not used until 6 years after the Roswell Incident. So in both the 1995 and 1997 Air Force reports, we have information that cannot be confirmed after several years of trying by myself and other researchers, and out right lies about anthropomorphic test dummies that weren�t used until 6 years after the Roswell Incident. In the case of the 1997 report, the timing by the Air Force was great regardless of whether any of the information in the report was accurate or not. It was intended to take attention away from the 50th anniversary, but in my opinion failed miserably. I talked to several active duty Air Force serviceman when the report was published, and most were embarrassed by the Air Force�s attempt to cover up the Incident with such ridiculous comments. It�s my sincere opinion that �Case Closed� by the Air Force wasn�t closed, and we should well expect another report from the Air Force at some point in the future. Lt. Col. Corso�s book �The Day After Roswell�, quickly became a best seller, and was one of those �can�t put it down books�; until I reached the end of the book and found that there were absolutely no references to his many claims in the book. I had met and talked with Corso on several occasions prior to his death, and found him to be extremely cordial and fairly impressive about his thoughts, however later when in-depth research was done about him, it was discovered that not all of what he said he was involved with was true. This was just another situation where we were led to believe that this was the final word on the Roswell Incident when in fact it wasn�t, but the timing was there to release it in July 1997. That brings us up to date, and as in the past, 2005 will be another year when the definitive explanation for the Roswell Incident is finally made public (or is it?) According to some reviews I�ve read about Nick Redfern�s new book, it also has several unnamed witnesses, and several well-known researchers are questioning some of the claims he�s making about the Roswell Incident involving a balloon attached to a Horten Brothers flying wing, containing Japanese individuals being used for experiments on the effects of radiation. The unnamed witnesses, (whistleblowers) being referred to currently, and in the past could easily resolve the questions about the Roswell Incident if only a few would come forward and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Chilean UFO Landing Video Under Analysis From: "Scott Corrales" <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:24:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:09:37 -0400 Subject: Chilean UFO Landing Video Under Analysis INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology July 1, 2005 Source: Terra.cl Date: June 25, 2005 Chile: UFO Landing Video Under Analysis Incredible images depict the landing of an unidentified flying object in southern Chile. A research organization is conducting detailed analysis. (TERRA.cl) Chile, June 25, 2005-- Incredible images of an alleged UFO landing in the vicinity of Ultima Esperanza in Chile's 12th region were made known only a few days ago by the Agrupaci=F3n de Investigaciones Ovniol=F3gicas de Chile (AION). This sequence of clips form part of an exclusive video taken in one of the world's southernmost locations and which show the vast amount of UFO manifestations in that territory, which is considered a UFO 'hotspot" by domestic ufologists. This video was taken on March 17, 2004 and has been in safekeeping to date by virtue of being considered one of the most interesting items of evidence in recent years in Chile. . AION's director, Rodrigo Fuenzalida, will present a series of new documents on UFOs in Chile and the world on July 2, at 1700 hours at the Alameda Art Thater. The most significant events have been recorded in Brazil, Chile and the United States. [...] Evidence collected in Chile has also had considerable impact, ranging from the UFO photographed over Termas del Flaco to videos collected in the country's 12th region which are being subjected to analysis. "We are analyzing some interesting UFO video material taken in area which, to our understanding, has the greatest concentration of UFO incidents," notes Fuenzalida. The event will take place on Saturday, July 2 at Cine Arte Alameda beginning at 1700 hours. Produced by AION CHILE and Chilecasting, coproduced by Cine Arte Alameda.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Re: NASA Video Of 'Spheres' In Space - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:31:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:11:30 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Video Of 'Spheres' In Space - Smith >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:33:46 -0400 >Subject: NASA Video Of 'Spheres' In Space >If the same metallic, spherical objects that are being recorded >in Mexico and elsewhere were to be recorded navigating in space >it would make a very powerful case for the (possible) ET origin >of these objects/craft. Well, such "proof" has existed since >1999 when a Vancouver cable TV station manager named Martyn >Stubbs came forward with the most compelling evidence of all for >'ET' owned and operated 'UFOs'... he recorded thousands of hours >worth of NASA transmissions from shuttle missions (that span a >number of years) using the TV stations' elaborate satellite >gear. This is fallicious logic. I can see metallic spherical objects (mylar party balloons) the grocery store but do I have to conclude they are from outer space because I see something that looks like them in a NASA video. >On Tuesday, 19th Sept. 2000 Anthony Chippendale filed a report >to UFO UpDates on the 19th Leeds International UFO Conference. I >quote from the part of his report that is relevant to this post: >"For those of you who are unaware of who Martyn Stubbs is, he is >a former cable TV station manager from Canada who, over a period >of five years, recorded over 2,500 hours of NASA footage from >space shuttle missions. This footage shows several 'phenomena' >in space, which, some people believe (including me), are >intelligently controlled spacecraft. For those of you who want >to find out more about the 'secret NASA transmissions' email >anthonyc.nul and I will be happy to provide you with >background information to." It is interesting how hype is used to sell videos. Secret! If it was secret, we wouldn't know about it. Also, if it was secret, then you couldn't order it from NASA via FOIA (which you can). There may have been some "secret" videos during some military satellite release flights. Also, medical and personal video transmissions are "restricted" so you cannot get them for privacy reasons. But Stubbs would not have even gotten the video if it had been encrypted as I would hope is required for "secret" transmissions. >I am in complete agreement with Anthony's assessment. More, >when viewed in the light of all the sightings and recordings that >are coming from Mexico, the evidence presented by Mr. Stubbs' >recordings of these objects navigating in space, virtually >'makes the case' for the ET origin of the spheres that are being >sighted in our skies. So you are hanging your hat on the NASA "secret" videos to prove your Mexican "collection of objects that look as if they are in the sky "? Although both sets of video do not have the benefit of radar or stereo imaging done to judge distances, the "secret" videos have the benefit of coming from a source that isn't likely to hoax the video AND the 1000's of hours of video provide numerous other examples to compare against the "secret" video to help the viewer learn that the "alien spheres" are no more that tiny particles near the lens. Its the ghostly orb camera phenomenon that excites willing paranormal believers in recent years. >I very strongly recommend that anyone who is looking into the >Mexican video recordings secure a copy of 'The Secret NASA >Transmissions' and review it carefully. The closing few scenes >are bone-chilling to watch. We are _not_ alone! The same objects >that are being recorded in the skies over Mexico have been >recorded navigating in space by NASA. I am surprised that you would believe that NASA (part of the coverup conspiracy) would allow any release of the "alien orbs" videos if they did not KNOW that it was prosaic stuff. Wouldn't they throw the video cutout switch or activate the encryption unit (after saying the TDRSS signal is lost)? >James Oberg has never debated Mr. Stubbs. That is one exchange I >would love to see. I know Mr. Oberg is starting to get on in >years, but it'll be interesting watching his version of the >'quick step' as he confronts some of the irrefutable material >that Mr. Stubbs has gathered and present ed to the world. Oberg and some NASA folk have already publicly addressed the issue of the "objects" seen in these videos. They are prosaic objects. Maccabee also concurs these are typical camera "orbs". >If anyone is willing to pay the nominal cost of a CD including >mailing & *handling (I would have to burn copies individually, >bag em, tag em and get em over to the USPS) I would be happy to >provide copies in .avi format for any List member who may want >one. Either secure a copy on the Web or contact me privately >off-list. Hopefully within copyright rules. Even though the NASA videos are in the public domain, it was still digitized/composed/assembled/ editted by Stubbs so he reserves the copyright for that work. >This is vital data/information that needs to see the light of >day. Buy, borrow or steal a copy of the Secret NASA >Transmissions if you have to, but by any and all means, see it! >It is, bar none, the most convincing and compelling evidence >that at least some UFO phenomena is of ET origin. Compare these >objects recorded in space, with the ones being recorded in >Mexico. It's guaranteed to send a bit of electricity racing up >your spine. I had thought that video from official sources would be definitive too. But as I said, without stereo or radar imaging, a little flashing light near the Shuttle could either be a piece of mylar or ice tumbling 10 feet away or an alien spaceship 5 miles away performing acrobatics. You choose what you want to believe, nothing is proven. Given the number of times I have seen ice flake off and tumble near the aft engines on the Shuttle in orbit, I am more inclined to that explanation for the entire class. As for the "orbs", I have seen those on ISS (ammonia leaks, waste water dumps) and they are very similar to the "alien spheres" (when the particles come within the focal length of the camera).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Review: War Of The Worlds From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:49:24 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:18:58 -0400 Subject: Review: War Of The Worlds Source; The New York Times http://tinyurl.com/87y8k June 29, 2005 Another Terror Attack, But Not by Humans By A. O. Scott Quiet as the publicity department at Paramount has tried to keep it, the earth is under attack by aliens. I know what you're thinking: what, again? Once upon a time - for example, in 1938, when Orson Welles scared the bejesus out of America with his War Of The Worlds radio broadcast - the pop-cultural spectacle of invasion from outer space could raise some real alarm. Of course, as a thousand think pieces over the next week or so are sure to remind us, Welles's Martians were symbolic displacements of actual threats, a role that marauding space creatures have often been happy to take on, especially during the cold war. But with Mars Attacks! and Men in Black - and even Independence Day - the aliens and their minions at the studios began to get a little self-conscious and somewhat less ambitious. The Martians were content to be temporary diversions from our true fears rather than allegorical crystallizations of them. War Of The Worlds, Steven Spielberg's reasonably entertaining rendering of the 1898 H. G. Wells novel that also inspired the other Welles, makes a gesture toward reversing that trend. Mr. Spielberg's extraterrestrials, who rampage across New Jersey in metal death-ray-shooting tripods are - I'm looking for the precise critical term here - wicked scary. And the terror they spread as they incinerate buildings and vaporize people cannot help recalling more immediate and painful scenes. "Is it the terrorists?" shrieks 10-year-old Rachel Ferrier (Dakota Fanning) to her stressed-out father, Ray (Tom Cruise), as they flee Bayonne in a stolen minivan. He is perhaps too preoccupied to give the honest answer, which is: "Well, sort of, sweetheart. In a metaphorical sense, that is." (Morgan Freeman's voice-over narration, taken pretty much verbatim from the Wells novel, helps to underscore this point.) It is tempting, and not altogether out of place, to take War Of The Worlds, and last summer's Spielberg movie, The Terminal, as the director's responses to the Sept. 11 attacks. "The Terminal" is a soothingly utopian post-9/11 movie, proposing decency, solidarity and good humor as antidotes to fear and anxiety, while War Of The Worlds is nerve-rackingly apocalyptic, offering an occasional reprieve but not much solace. It is, in other words, a horror movie, and one that does not, for the most part, insist too heavily on its own topicality. As such, it takes Mr. Spielberg back to his early days as a maker of lean, sadistic, effective thrillers. Although the special effects are elaborate and expensive, War Of The Worlds has some of the stripped-down ingenuity of Jaws and The Duel. Like those pictures, it is an elemental story of predator and prey. Unlike Mr. Spielberg's more recent films, in which he has used his unparalleled skill as a visual storyteller to create a complex tapestry of emotions, this one follows the thread of a single human reflex: fight or flight. Mostly flight. Ray is a divorced longshoreman with weekend custody of his two children, Rachel and her uncommunicative teenage brother, Robbie (Justin Chatwin). Ray is not exactly a candidate for father of the year; he keeps a V-8 engine on his kitchen table and little besides half-empty condiment bottles in his refrigerator, and bonds with his son mainly by browbeating him. Once the aliens start vaporizing the neighborhood, Ray's reaction is less than exemplary, but he does manage to keep his family together and on the run, and thus buys a chance at the redemption you know is coming his way. Millions of deaths and incalculable property damage seem like pretty expensive family therapy, but it's heartening to know that even an alien invasion can provide an opportunity for learning and growth. In any case, the psychological drama occupies as narrow a compartment in Josh Friedman and David Koepp's script as the current-events allegory. Mr. Cruise has lately proven himself to be much more interesting and unpredictable as a talk show guest than as an actor, but he remains adept at playing - either with or against type, depending on how you look at it - a jerk brought low by circumstances beyond his control. Ms. Fanning, Hollywood's favorite endangered child, screams her head off, an appropriate enough response. The only other noteworthy piece of acting comes from Tim Robbins as a possibly deranged survivor hiding from the invaders in an abandoned barn. After a few minutes in his company, you can only wish that the Martians - or maybe the bloodthirsty puppets from 'Team America - would hurry up and do their job. But acting is not really the point of this movie, which seems to arise above all from Mr. Spielberg's desire to reaffirm that he is, along with everything else, a master of pure action filmmaking. Think of War Of The Worlds as a riposte to his competitors - Michael Bay, Wolfgang Petersen, Roland Emmerich and their profit-turning ilk - and as a primer on how to mix computer-generated imagery with the techniques of classic, large-scale cinema. The visual atmosphere of War Of The Worlds is the work of a team - including the cinematographer Janusz Kaminski, the costume designer Joanna Johnston, the editor Michael Kahn and the production designer Rick Carter - who all have worked with Mr. Spielberg many times, and their collective expertise gives the picture a crisp, seamless texture. Another longtime Spielberg collaborator is John Williams, whose score is striking partly as a result of how sparingly it is used. For long stretches of the movie, you hear no music at all, which deepens both the realism and the dread, and immerses you more fully in what you are seeing. Which is, all in all, fairly spectacular. There are scenes and images in War Of The Worlds that are especially stunning for seeming completely effortless. The first alien attack, in which a lightning storm from above is followed by the emergence of the tripod vessels from underground; a panicked crowd scene at a Hudson River ferry landing; a devastated suburban subdivision into which a plane has crashed - all of these are reminders of how sublime, how aesthetically complete, a few moments of film can be. War Of The Worlds is perhaps best appreciated as an anthology of such moments, bound together by a serviceable, if familiar, conceit. The film also allows Mr. Spielberg to indulge in the minor vice of self-quotation. An alien thoughtfully fingers a bicycle wheel, perhaps thinking of his benevolent kinsman E.T. The ear-splitting signal that the attack vessels emit sounds a bit like the first two notes of the Close Encounters siren song. An alien probe has the long, twisty neck of a Jurassic Park dinosaur and the eyeball of the surveillance spiders in Minority Report. All of which serves as a reminder - perhaps superfluous - that this is only a movie, and a lesser Spielberg movie at that. But War Of The Worlds also succeeds in reminding us that while Mr. Spielberg doesn't always make great movies, he seems almost constitutionally incapable of bad moviemaking. It's not much to think about, but it's certainly something to see. War Of The Worlds is rated PG-13. Much of the earth's population is wiped out, leaving very little time for sex or bad language. War Of The Worlds Opens today nationwide. Directed by Steven Spielberg; written by Josh Friedman and David Koepp, based on the novel by H. G. Wells; director of photography, Janusz Kaminski; edited by Michael Kahn; music by John Williams; production designer, Rick Carter; produced by Kathleen Kennedy, Colin Wilson and Paula Wagner; released by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 1 Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:35:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:27:39 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Smith >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:46 +0100 (BST) >Subject: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >The inflatable Loony Balloony space protection umbrella :-) >Don't miss reading this it will make your hair stand on >end; >http://tinyurl.com/cp6w9 >The construction may later be mistaken for UFO clusters >especially if used in near space. Why do you think it is a "loony" idea? Do you think space travel is a "loony" idea? The problem with human space travel is that they are getting bombarded with radiation all the time. The best way to deal with this (assuming the astronauts are NOT expendible) is to have lots of shielding, but that weighs too much. Even if you use in-situ lunar or Mars regolith to build your shield, that takes alot of time and energy. These balloons are a clever approach to simulate a van Allen radiation belt by moving the radiation away from the astronauts. As to using these in space, its only going to make sense for orbits beyond Earth's radiation belt, since the added protection afforded by them is neglible below that. At the likely
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:20 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:32:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch >Source: Ananova.Com >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1445342.html >01 July 2005 >Tom: I believe in aliens >Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. >According to German tabloid Bild he said: >"Of course I believe in aliens. >Are you really so arrogant to believe we are alone >in unending space?" he added. >"Millions of stars, and we're supposed to be the only life >form? No! There are many things out there that we do not know >about." Millions? Try billions, and not just a few. Suppose Tom Cruise did not believe in aliens. Is there anyone on this list who could care a rap? Lets ask Brooke Shield(s), or who is it now? Oh yes, Brittney Spears. Do you believe in space aliens Brittney? Somebody put up a web page about 'Brittney Spears on Quantum
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Flight Of Fancy - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:37:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:18:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Flight Of Fancy - Hatch >Source: The Guardian, UK >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,1517196,00.html >Thursday June 30, 2005 >Flight Of Fancy by Mark Pilkington >In 1952, New Zealand airline pilot Bruce Cathie's life changed >for ever. From Manukau Harbour, Auckland, he watched as a bright >white light, accompanied by a smaller red light, "carried out >manoeuvres that no known man-made vehicle could accomplish at >that time". He'd seen his first UFO. <snip> >However, although his harmonic theories had left the Earth >behind long ago, Cathie had overlooked one thing. In 1971, the >Eltanin object was identified as Cladorhiza concrescens - a >sponge. >[Thanks to Stuart Miller of http://www.uforeview.net for the lead] Hello Mark, Errol and all: I refer people to this page: http://www.larryhatch.net/ELTANIN.html Where, thanks to the relentless work of Tom DeMary, in Texas, the so-called 'Eltanin Antenna' blew up in its own, er, sponge, for the first time on the web. It was Tom who found the original sources, scientists, even some who sailed on that same ship the Eltanin. Its a fun read, by all means check it out. Yes, Cathie even made 'improvements' to Einstein's famous equation E=MC^2 which must cause chuckles to anyone with neurons still firing. This is old news now. I published that page in October of 2003 if memory serves. I still enjoy seeing the 'Eltanin Antenna' make a comeback from time to time. My page gives links to those who still disagree. Check them out too. You won't be disappointed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:20:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Groff >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:20 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>Source: Ananova.Com >>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1445342.html >>01 July 2005 >>Tom: I believe in aliens >>Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. >>According to German tabloid Bild he said: >>"Of course I believe in aliens. >>Are you really so arrogant to believe we are alone >>in unending space?" he added. >>"Millions of stars, and we're supposed to be the only life >>form? No! There are many things out there that we do not know >>about." >Millions? Try billions, and not just a few. >Suppose Tom Cruise did not believe in aliens. >Is there anyone on this list who could care a rap? >Lets ask Brooke Shield(s), or who is it now? Oh yes, Brittney >Spears. Do you believe in space aliens Brittney? >Somebody put up a web page about 'Brittney Spears on Quantum >Physics'. Its a scream. URL not handy. please Google it up. That is too funny.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 16:46:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:33:09 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His >Source: Northwich Chronicle, Cheshire, UK >http://tinyurl.com/b83ly >Jun 29 2005 >UFO Investigator Shows He's An Expert In His Field >By Anthony Harvison >Northwich Chronicle <snip> >At this point many readers will possibly be dismissing Eric's >research as the work of a crank, but it doesn't faze the man at >all. 'A lot of people who claim to be abducted are nutcases but >I don't think I'm a UFO nut,' said Eric. List, I have a few concerns regarding the above quotation. If the above quotation is indeed from Eric Morris, then calling Those who claim to have been abducted ' nutcases ' is highly Unprofessional in my opinion, and can be quite harmful to those Who may feel pretty isolated as to who to turn to with such Symptoms of alien abduction. Does Eric have an abductee 'nutcase' criteria he would like to Show the list? Has Eric ever told an abductee they are a nutcase, after looking Into their case?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:37:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:20 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>Tom: I believe in aliens >>>Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. >>>According to German tabloid Bild he said: "Of course I >>>believe in aliens. <snip> >No! There are things out there that we do >not know about." >>Somebody put up a web page about 'Brittney Spears on Quantum >>Physics'. Its a scream. URL not handy. please Google it up. >That is too funny. >http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm >Terry Helloo Terry! This late, and so full of high quality Belgian beers, I would prefer to be funny than right. Has anyone asked Jennifer Lopez what she thinks? Is there a thinking person on this planet who gives a wet f***? I am reminded of a radio commercial I heard once. 'John Sleeze' [JS] from Tackaville Buick Honda was on with (obviously paid) Wayne Whacka [WW] of the famous (you-name-it)- ball team, i.e. the Los Angeles Tarantulas. JS: ".. And here is Wayne Whacka! Hey Wayne .. that's some team you have going there! WW: "Just like the great team at Tackaville Buick Honda John..." The dialogue goes downhill from there if you can imagine that. BTW - if I _ever_ buy a new car, it will be with carefully considered advice from both Armond Armchair: Mechanical Engineer, and Joe Bob Goodwrench: lifelong mechanic. Your mileage may vary.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Remember Flim-Flam - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 13:38:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:40:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Remember Flim-Flam - Maccabee >Source: MSN.Com >http://slate.msn.com/id/2121239/ >Wednesday, June 22, 2005 >Remember Flim-Flam >How to be a modern skeptic >By Daniel Engber >In line to get my badge for this year's skeptics conference in >Pasadena, Calif., I recognized the little man standing behind >me. He was bald, with a full, white beard, and he looked older >than I would have imagined. "Excuse me," he said, "is this the >line for the skeptics meeting?" When I nodded, he looked me up >and down and replied, "Oh, I doubt that." <snip> >Related in Slate In 2004, Dennis Cass reviewed Penn & Teller's >Bullshit!, and Jim Holt challenged atheists to prove that God >doesn't exist. The Catholic Church apologized in 2000 for >burning a 16th-century friar who called Jesus a very gifted >magician. In 1998, Jack Shafer admitted he wasn't skeptical >enough when it came to Stephen Glass' stories because he wanted >them to be true. In his obituary of Johnny Carson, David >Edelstein described his own visit to the skeptics' convention, >and the $100,000 check that Carson had sent to the Amazing Randi >with a note that read, "The enclosed is to help you educate >Larry King and Montel Williams." >Daniel Engber is a writer in New York City and a featured member >of www.cryingwhileeating.com Amusing... as in The Amusing Randi. I guess that $100K from JC (Carson!) didn't help much. I have been on th Montel Williams and Larry King shows (LK twice already)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 2 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 17:33:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:20 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>>Tom: I believe in aliens >>>>Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. >>>>According to German tabloid Bild he said: "Of course I >>>>believe in aliens. ><snip> >>No! There are things out there that we do >>not know about." >>>Somebody put up a web page about 'Brittney Spears on >>>Quantum >>>Physics'. Its a scream. URL not handy. please Google it up. >>That is too funny. <snip> >Terry >Helloo Terry! >This late, and so full of high quality Belgian beers, I would >prefer to be funny than right. >Has anyone asked Jennifer Lopez what she thinks? Is there a >thinking person on this planet who gives a wet f***? >I am reminded of a radio commercial I heard once. >'John Sleeze' [JS] from Tackaville Buick Honda was on with >(obviously paid) Wayne Whacka [WW] of the famous (you->name-it)- >ball team, i.e. the Los Angeles Tarantulas. >JS: ".. And here is Wayne Whacka! Hey Wayne .. that's some >team >you have going there! >WW: "Just like the great team at Tackaville Buick Honda >John..." >The dialogue goes downhill from there if you can imagine that. >BTW - if I _ever_ buy a new car, it will be with carefully >considered advice from both Armond Armchair: Mechanical >Engineer, and Joe Bob Goodwrench: lifelong mechanic. >Your mileage may vary. >Best wishes >- Larry Hatch You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box office star in the world validates what this List is about and the first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough the mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, they're losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence that spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should support them. How in the world is someone who investigates UFOs gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the possibility? Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and wife beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay away from that lifestyle. He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at his game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we should invite him to join in. I live in Hollywood. I've been astounded at how brilliant many actors are. They range from geologists to astronomers to master craftspersons. I know several actors/actresses who can build an engine from scratch or whip you silly at chess or can take a log and build a super work of architecture. That's how they survive before they make it big. I have three actors now who are master sculptors and work designing and building toys for great money. Not all actors wait tables or sling hash. I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and big headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Not Progeria From: Tab Goode <rosunwell.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:25:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:01:48 -0400 Subject: Not Progeria The reason why it is not Progeria is because it has no ribs, no teeth, and it's eyes (pupils) are bigger than normal. Also it has six fingers and six toes. Also the ears are tiny and in a different location to normal. The reason why she is female is the shape of the hips, her feminine facial features and the lack of a penis. Clearly she is not a man yet, she is referred to as a 'he', frequently, in the press reports of the screenings in August of 1995. Her innards, brain, and the shape of her head suggest strongly that she is not a human. I know that this footage is frightening and disturbing. No one wanted to see a new species, on it's back and being dissected, as an intial introduction, but the eye movement requires deeper readings, which I explore in my essays both written by 1996. One of the cursed King, Henry VIII's wives, Anne Boleyn, had six fingers, which was a 'recognised' sign of a witch. It is related to a dominence of multiple chromosomes and is also known as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Pope's Stargazers Teach Tomorrow's Astronomers From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 19:21:43 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:03:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Pope's Stargazers Teach Tomorrow's Astronomers >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:52:35 -0700 >Subject: Pope's Stargazers Teach Tomorrow's Astronomers >"Science is an important value in human life and therefore it is >important to the Catholic Church," >http://tinyurl.com/bf6os >Pope's stargazers teach tomorrow's astronomers >Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:15 AM ET >By Philip Pullella >CASTELGANDOLFO, Italy (Reuters) - Everyone knows the Vatican is >interested in Heaven but it may come as a surprise to some that >it is also interested in the heavens. <snip> >"The Vatican wants to show its appreciation for science," said >Father Chris Corbally, a soft-spoken Jesuit from Britain who is >the observatory's vice-director and dean of its international >summer school. <snip> >"These students come here because they want to learn more >science," said Corbally. >"The whole environment of the place invites reflection. But we >don't ask what their faith is, or if they have any. What we do >ask is what quality of person they are, what enthusiasm they >have, what is the promise of continuing in research careers in >astronomy or in astrobiology," he said. Hi Everyone! Dr. Christopher J. Corbally is both a scientist - he earned his Ph.D. in astronomy at the University of Toronto - and a Jesuit priest. In January 2002 I attended a talk at York University in Toronto given by Chris Corbally which was titled 'Discovering ET, Discovering God'. Since his talk was part of a series of special seminars on the topic 'The Quest for Contact: In Search of Extraterrestrial Life', never-the-less it seemed that I was the only one not surprised when Chris Corbally spoke out publicly about his own UFO sighting! Chris Corbally is just one of many astronomers who have had UFO sightings which they could not explain and often keep to themselves. Interestingly, his UFO sighting took place high above the cloud layer from the summit of Hawaii's Mauna Kea, an extinct volcanic mountain that is nearly 14,000 feet in elevation (taller than Mount Everest if measured from it's base below the ocean) and home of the largest telescopes in the world - a mecca for astronomers from all over. Dr. Seth Shostak, another astronomer and a fellow believer in ETs along with Chris Corbally, gave another talk a few weeks earlier in 2001 as part of the same seminar series at York University. His talk was titled 'Searching for Extraterrestrials'. Both astronomers are considered "experts" in astrobiology - a new "science" for which there is absolutely no evidence for! Astrobiology is a rapidly growing and increasingly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Filer's Files #27 - 2005 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:27:19 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:05:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #27 - 2005 - Balaskas >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46:21 -0400 >Subject: Filer's Files #27 - 2005 >Filer's Files #27 - 2005, >Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >Vice President of Skywatch International >June 29, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com >Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. <snip> >Canada - flashy saucer lights >TORONTO -- Agnes Sroczynski writes, "On Wednesday, June 22, >2005, at about 10 PM, in the Flemington Park area of the city, >my friend and I witnessed a disc-shaped metallic object. We saw >the object from the eleventh floor window of my friend's >apartment. The object had large, white, spherical lights on the >sides, flashing quickly and erratically. It was close to the >building, and not far above us. Only one or two lights were >visible at any one time. The object danced a dizzying pattern in >the sky while it continued traveling west, extremely fast. This >is a good spot for sightings in Toronto. Thanks to Agnes >Sroczynski <snip> Hi George! Flemington Park is a very densely populated Toronto neighbourhood with many tall residential highrises. Since June 22 was a break from the unusally high temperatures, humdity and poor air quality we had nearly all month long (at 10 p.m. the sky was clear, the temperature was about 17 degrees C, the humidity was 56% and the winds were directly from the north at 20 km/hr), I would have expected more people would have been outdoors on their balconies and would have also seen and reported this disc-shaped metallic object with large white flashing lights. Since this object was travelling west at an extremely fast speed, it could not be an airborne object such as a balloon or a kite moving with the wind. The comment that this is a good spot for sightings (UFOs?) in Toronto is not something I was aware of or which is supported from the very few reports of UFOs we get in and around Toronto. Since the witness lives literally "next door" to the Ontario Science Centre where the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada regularly meets and often sets up telescopes for public observing and she is also "down the street" from [astronaut] Marc Garneau Collegiate Institute where students specialize in space sciences (they observe manned spacecraft passing overhead and frequently communicate with the astronauts orbiting the Earth by radio), I would suggest she contacts them or MUFON
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 21:43:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:07:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Clark >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:20 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and big >headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors. I am neither pro- nor anti-Tom Cruise - I just am not that interested in celebrities - so this isn't about him particularly. But the thought you express above, Greg, has also occurred to me from time to time. You express it well. We all need to lighten up and exercise some of that tolerance we are always demanding for ourselves.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:10:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >>>>>Tom: I believe in aliens >>>>>Tom Cruise says he believes in aliens. >>>>>According to German tabloid Bild he said: "Of course I >>>>>believe in aliens. >><snip> >>>No! There are things out there that we do not know about." >>>>Somebody put up a web page about 'Brittney Spears on >>>Quantum Physics'. Its a scream. URL not handy. please Google >>>it up. >>>That is too funny. ><snip> >>Terry >>Helloo Terry! >>This late, and so full of high quality Belgian beers, >>I would prefer to be funny than right. >>Has anyone asked Jennifer Lopez what she thinks? >>I am reminded of a radio commercial I heard once. >>'John Sleeze' [JS] from Tackaville Buick Honda was on with >>Wayne Whacka [WW] of the famous (you->name-it)- >>ball team, i.e. the Los Angeles Tarantulas. >>JS: ".. And here is Wayne Whacka! Hey Wayne .. that's some >team you have going there! >>WW: "Just like the great team at Tackaville Buick Honda John..." >>The dialogue goes downhill from there.. <snip> >You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box office >star in the world validates what this List is about and the >first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough the >mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, >they're losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. >Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence that >spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >support them. How in the world is someone who investigates UFOs >gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >possibility? >Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and wife >beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >away from that lifestyle. >He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at his >game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we >should invite him to join in. >I live in Hollywood. I've been astounded at how brilliant many >actors are. They range from geologists to astronomers to master >craftspersons. I know several actors/actresses who can build an >engine from scratch or whip you silly at chess or can take a log >and build a super work of architecture. That's how they survive >before they make it big. I have three actors now who are master >sculptors and work designing and building toys for great money. >Not all actors wait tables or sling hash. >I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and big >headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors. Hello Greg: Nobody is calling Tom Cruise moronic, it takes a lot of brains and ability to act. Nobody is calling him a scientist or philosopher either - I'm sure he wouldn't be comfortable with that. What bothers me is press/media that take his views on ufology
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Hickson On UFOs & War Of The Worlds From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:21:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:21:46 -0400 Subject: Hickson On UFOs & War Of The Worlds Source: The Mississippi Press - Pascagoula, Mississippi http://tinyurl.com/7jynq Sunday, July 03, 2005 Local man says UFO experience is one he will never get over By Natalie Chambers GAUTIER -- UFOs. Real or imaginary? There's the Hollywood version and then there's Charles Hickson of Gautier. Hickson and fishing partner, Calvin Parker, were near a pier at Shaupeter Shipyard in Pascagoula on the evening of Oct. 11, 1973, when they reported being abducted by robot-like aliens and taken aboard an egg-shaped, glowing spacecraft. Their account of that night is the type stuff movies should be made of. They spoke of floating creatures and being examined by an electronic eye, within an approximate 20-minute time frame. Hickson remained conscious but could only move his eyes. Parker fainted. Hickson was recently interviewed at his Gautier home following the release of War of the Worlds, a present-day re-telling of H.G. Wells' classic, sci-fi adventure thriller that reveals the extraordinary battle for the future of humankind through the eyes of one American family fighting to survive it. "Some of the movies they make now I watch, some I don't. They're not what Calvin and I went through with. They are make-believe. What happened to us is a natural fact," Hickson said. "I notice here lately, they've been having a lot of UFO programs on the History Channel." Hollywood touts several variations of alien-life. Hickson, at 74, has not deviated from accounts he has given to local police, government investigators, television commentators such as Dick Cavett and Johnny Carson, or anyone else who has asked. Under hypnosis, he recalled seeing human-like beings aboard the craft. "Evidently they couldn't live in our atmosphere and had the robots come out and handle us," he said. Hickson believes the aliens will return. "They are still having UFO sightings around the world," he said. "I still get letters from people all over the whole world who tell me things they went through. Some of them won't talk to anybody else about it." The fear, sleepless nights, inability to eat, afraid of the outdoors - emanating from that night - are long gone and in some ways, so has the close relationship shared with Parker. "They didn't do me any physical harm. They give me a bad fright. They gave Calvin a heck of a fright. In fact, I don't think he will ever get over it," Hickson said. Parker, then 19, left Jackson County. "I don't know what the answer is. I may never find an answer during my lifetime. Everybody has to have their own beliefs. I think some day in the near future, people will know there are other worlds with life on them because we are going farther and farther with space exploration. We've got probes around Mars and Jupiter," he said. Over the years, Hickson has received letters from others who said they, too, saw the craft that night. "They didn't want to be ridiculed," he said. Mike Cataldo, a retired Navy chief petty officer now living in Florida, contacted The Mississippi Press a couple of years ago. "We saw it, no question about it. We talked about it. Was it a shooting star, a meteorite? This was very different," he said. "As quickly as we saw it, it just vanished." Hickson has since published a book of the account, UFO: Contact At Pascagoula. The $15 hardback can be purchased by calling Hickson at 228-497-4753. "Everywhere I go and I've been to many big colleges and universities all over the country and they've never ridiculed me at all. They've been very interested. They want to ask questions. They are eager to learn. I think they realize some day they will have to cope with that. It's something I will never get over," he said. A year ago, Hickson lost his wife, Blanche. They celebrated 50 years of marriage prior to her death. Back surgery keeps him from traveling a lot but he still keeps in touch through e-mail, television, phone and postal service.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:07:34 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:26:17 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Stevenson >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:35:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:46 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >>The inflatable Loony Balloony space protection umbrella :-) >>Don't miss reading this it will make your hair stand on >>end; >>http://tinyurl.com/cp6w9 >>The construction may later be mistaken for UFO clusters >>especially if used in near space. >Why do you think it is a "loony" idea? I remember an old ZX Spectrum Game called 'Loony Balloonies' and the settup reminded me somewhat of it. >Do you think space travel is a "loony" idea? Space travel would be a good idea and of the utmost necessity if planet Earth looked as if it was going 'Bang'. >The problem with human space travel is that >they are getting bombarded with radiation all the time. No. The problem is that the space radiation kills them? >The best way to deal with this (assuming the astronauts are NOT >expendible) is to have lots of shielding, but that weighs too >much. Even if you use in-situ lunar or Mars regolith to build >your shield, that takes alot of time and energy. These balloons >are a clever approach to simulate a van Allen radiation belt by >moving the radiation away from the astronauts. Yes, I can read. >As to using these in space, its only going to make sense >for >orbits beyond Earth's radiation belt, since the added protection >afforded by them is neglible below that. At the likely >deployment distance (~HEO-GEO..>1000miles), they won't be seen >from Earth with the naked eye. I like wishfull thinkers. >But I do like your quip on "making your hair stand on end", >pretty funny! There are young folk reading these posts some of whome need a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hamilton From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:29:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:30:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hamilton >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box office >star in the world validates what this List is about and the >first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough the >mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, they're >losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. >Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence that >spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >support them. How in the world is someone who investigates UFOs >gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >possibility? > >Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and wife >beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >away from that lifestyle. >He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at his >game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we >should invite him to join in. >I live in Hollywood. I've been astounded at how brilliant many >actors are. They range from geologists to astronomers to master >craftspersons. I know several actors/actresses who can build an >engine from scratch or whip you silly at chess or can take a log >and build a super work of architecture. That's how they survive >before they make it big. I have three actors now who are master >sculptors and work designing and building toys for great money. >Not all actors wait tables or sling hash. >I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and big >headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors. Greg, Just want to say I agree with you. If you get the support of celebrities from any field, then you are most likely to be heard far and wide. The singing family, The Carpenters, came out with a song in the 70s titled, Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft, or something like that, and,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Not Progeria - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:06:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:21:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Not Progeria - Shell >From: Tab Goode <rosunwell.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:25:41 +0000 >Subject: Not Progeria >The reason why it is not Progeria is because it has no ribs, no >teeth, and it's eyes (pupils) are bigger than normal. Ribs can clearly be seen at several points during the dissection. The creature does have ribs. It is not possible in the film to tell whether any teeth are present or not, since the "surgeons" never pull back the lips. There could well be teeth, and based on the shape of the mouth I believe there are. Yes, both eyes and pupils are much larger than human. >Also it has six fingers and six toes. Also the ears are tiny and >in a different location to normal. Polydactyly is not associated with progeria. The ears are small, but only slightly lower than in a human, and this position is dictated by the enlarged cranium. The enlarged cranium is necessary to house a larger and distinctly non-human brain. >The reason why she is female is the shape of the hips, her >feminine facial features and the lack of a penis. Small facial features are not necessarily feminine. Overall body shape, including hips, is gynandromorphic. We do not know if there is a penis or not, since the "labia" are not opened in this film. Some mammals have penises which are not visible when flaccid. Whales and dolphins are good examples. Penises are not visible in reptiles unless erect. Birds have no penises, males and females look exactly alike in the cloacal area. Monotremes have no penises, so far as I am aware. We simply do not know the sex of this creature, or if it even has sexual dimorphism as humans do. There is a complete lack of development of breasts or even nipples. >Clearly she is not a man yet, she is referred to as a 'he', >frequently, in the press reports of the screenings in August of >1995. I believe the creature is neither male nor female. A worker drone if you will. >Her innards, brain, and the shape of her head suggest strongly >that she is not a human. Agreed. Vertebrate, perhaps of earthly origin, but not human. >I know that this footage is frightening and disturbing. No one >wanted to see a new species, on it's back and being dissected, >as an intial introduction, but the eye movement requires deeper >readings, which I explore in my essays both written by 1996. Not sure what you are talking about. There is no eye movement in the creature in the film. Some people thought they saw eye
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:26:33 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 14:30:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:29:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens ><snip> >>You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box >>office >>star in the world validates what this List is about and the >>first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough the >>mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, >>they're >>losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. >>Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence >>that >>spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >>support them. How in the world is someone who investigates >>UFOs >>gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >>possibility? >> >>Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >>The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >>than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and >>wife >>beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >>away from that lifestyle. >>He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at >>his >>game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we >>should invite him to join in. >>I live in Hollywood. I've been astounded at how brilliant many >>actors are. They range from geologists to astronomers to >>master >>craftspersons. I know several actors/actresses who can build >>an >>engine from scratch or whip you silly at chess or can take a >>log >>and build a super work of architecture. That's how they >>survive >>before they make it big. I have three actors now who are >>master >>sculptors and work designing and building toys for great >>money. >>Not all actors wait tables or sling hash. >>I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and >>big >>headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors. >Just want to say I agree with you. >If you get the support of celebrities from any field, then you >are most likely to be heard far and wide. The singing family, >The Carpenters, came out with a song in the 70s titled, Calling >Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft, or something like that, and, >along with Close Encounters by Spielberg, it got everyone's >attention. Thank you Bill, Nowadays Ufology has never been edgier. What I mean by that is the tensions are rising as old cases and new cases as well as new attacks abound. Ten years of wide public access to the internet where they can read up on UFOs from the researchers who cut the mold and share their UFO stories shows interest is far from waning. Art Bell, Jeff Rense, Errol Bruce-Knapp, Hilly Rose, Don Ecker, and all of you who have radio, TV shows and magazines have a far wider audience now and with that a greater responsibility to hit the opposition in the teeth. We've seen via that ABC special what the mainstream thinks about us. All we're trying to do is what our birthright as citizens of the United States and get to the truth. Yet look at the resistance, the hostility, the stonewalling, lies, and threats we receive. Any help is help worth acknowledging. So here comes the world's most recognized human being, Tom Cruise, who shares his viewpoint regarding this field. Some of us attack or invalidate him? That's like setting one's own butt on fire. Cruise spoke out. What if other major celebs spoke out and took action? That'd sure put a fly in the disinformation ointment wouldn't it? What if instead of believing in the possibility of extraterrestrial life suddenly became chic, cool, 'The Crump' - a new saying here in Los Angeles - or even nifty? The enemy would be in hot retreat and more witnesses would come forward after 50 years of harrassment and stigma. What if Cruise appeared on Rense or the Art Bell show? That would be a blast as far as I'm concerned. No Cruise isn't a scientist or Ufologist but does it matter? Some if not the majority of scientific leaps in history weren't performed by mainstream scientists just guys and gals who had an idea and the guts to move forward. Bottom line here is we who are Ufologists must always be on our toes not to introvert into a ball of bigotry. We can't become the invalidating, harrassing, condescending monsters we've all encountered while researching. Sometimes a movement's worst enemies are the movers! Gather data, process that data, evaluate, disseminate. That's what we should be doing so the public is served properly. Joe and Jane American don't have the time to do the research and ground work most of you have done. They rely on you to give them what they need as it's blatant that they're not going to get it from the government. If just one of your books or lectures or videos brings them some solice and awareness then you've done your duty. The public doesn't know the sacrifice, sweat, hardships both financial and familial Ufologists go through. It's a battle ground where you're always surrounded and under fire with everyone watching and hoping you win but few with your courage or smarts to enter the fray. So when a big shot like Cruise sticks his neck out to speak his piece, if I agree or not I respect him for his honesty and clarity. I say you guys should invite him to your lectures, radio shows or even send him some of your materials. You might be surprised at the results :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 14:39:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:01:45 EDT >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >>>Has anyone asked Jennifer Lopez what she thinks? <snip> >>You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box office >>star in the world validates what this List is about and the >>first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough the >>mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, >>they're losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. >>Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence that >>spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >>support them. How in the world is someone who investigates UFOs >>gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >>possibility? >>Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >>The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >>than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and wife >>beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >>away from that lifestyle. >>He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at >>his >>game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we >>should invite him to join in. >>I live in Hollywood. I've been astounded at how brilliant many >>actors are. They range from geologists to astronomers to >>master >>craftspersons. I know several actors/actresses who can build >>an >>engine from scratch or whip you silly at chess or can take a >>log >>and build a super work of architecture. That's how they >>survive >>before they make it big. I have three actors now who are >>master >>sculptors and work designing and building toys for great >>money. >>Not all actors wait tables or sling hash. >>I hope the UFO community doesn't become so isolated and big >>headed that they become mirrors of their own oppressors. >Nobody is calling Tom Cruise moronic, it takes a lot of brains >and ability to act. >Nobody is calling him a scientist or philosopher either - I'm >sure he wouldn't be comfortable with that. >What bothers me is press/media that take his views on ufology >(etc) and publish them, as if he knew more than the people >right >across the street, working in Burger King. Larry, Maybe I'm missing something here. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you irritated that the press paid him more attention than us? Or are you irritated that they paid him more attention than you? Cruise is the biggest box office star, movie hunk, celebrity on the planet Earth, Terra Firma, The Big Blue Marble and he affirmed what we in Ufology as well as the majority of the American public believes and you have a problem with that? If I'm correct the majority of the people on Earth believe either in extraterrestrial life or that they themselves are decendents of life forms not of this world. All Cruise did was validate them for their beliefs. So what's wrong with that? The news media isn't lambasting him for his belief in extraterrestrial life, they're lambasting him for his views on over drugging, his choice of girlfriends, and his religious beliefs. Makes you wonder what dark lord of the Sith is running the news media nowadays. Soon as you're anti- dope the press jumps down your throat. Bottom line is billions of people know of and adore that man and it just might be cause he's a nice guy. Next time I see him rolling through Hollywood and he stops and signs autographs for us commoners I'll ask him to join this List.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Lowe From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:52:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Lowe >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> Hi Errol, List, I think that the press are lambasting him because of some of his beliefs and recent behaviour. He's free to believe in aliens, that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and, if stories about Scientology are true, body Thetans, Xenu etc. but I lost pretty
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 3 Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:10:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:10:45 -0400 Subject: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon Source: EcceNova Editions - British Columbia, Canada http://www.eccenova.com/Media%20Kit%20Heavenly%20Lights.htm PRESS RELEASE For Immediate Release: July 2nd, 2005 New History Reveals the Truth About the Fatima Incident Authors say Famed Apparitions in 1917 were Close Encounters with Alien Beings VICTORIA, BC =96 The Fatima incident was an important event in the history of religion. In 1917, three little Portuguese shepherds =96 Jacinta, Francisco, and L=FAcia =96 suddenly encountered the Virgin Mary, illuminated in the splendor of heavenly lights, who told the children three secrets about the fate of the Earth. The contacts were followed by an unexplained aerial phenomenon, called =93The Miracle of the Sun,=94 in which the Sun was seen to dance in the sky by thousands of awestruck onlookers who flocked to Fatima. The apparitions were presumed to be a case of divine intervention in human affairs, a sign from Heaven that the world war then raging in Europe should end. A shrine sprang up at Fatima that drew millions of believers, and a myth was invented that the secrets of Fatima would be revealed in the fullness of time =96 as a testament of faith in a secular age. In Heavenly Lights (EcceNova Editions; July 2, 2005; $22.95), Portuguese historians Joaquim Fernandes and Fina d'Armada tell the true story of the apparitions of Fatima. The first history of Fatima to be written by Portuguese historians based on the original documents, Heavenly Lights is the result of a 25-year odyssey by the authors in search of the actual facts of the Fatima case. Fernandes and d'Armada began their investigation in 1978, when they were given access to secret archives held at the Sanctuary of Fatima. The records of Sister L=FAcia, kept at the archives since the incident, revealed that the children did not interact with an apparition of the Virgin Mary but with a hologram of an extraterrestrial projected on a beam of light from a spacecraft hovering high above them. The archives clearly showed that the entities encountered at Fatima were not deities from Heaven but rather alien beings visiting our planet from =93elsewhere=94 in the vast Cosmos. This finding was supported by hundreds of other facts from the time of the apparitions. Fatima, the authors discovered, was the first major UFO case of the 20th century. Heavenly Lights is certain to become a definitive history of the Fatima Incident of 1917. When it was first published in Portugal in 1995, entitled As Apari=E7=F5es de Fatima e o Fen=F3meno OVNI, the Jornal de Not=EDcias, a leading Portuguese newspaper, heralded the work =93a literary success without precedent in the field of Portuguese ufological studies.=94 Now the whole world can know the truth about the apparitions of Fatima. This new translation by American journalists Andrew D. Basiago and Eva M. Thompson offers a powerful argument for both UFO researchers and religious scholars alike to re-examine the actual evidence that at last explains the enduring mystery of the Fatima incident. About the Authors Joaquim Fernandes is Professor of History at the University Fernando Pessoa in Porto, Portugal. He directs the Multicultural Apparitions Research International Academic Network (Project MARIAN). His research interests include the history of science and the comparative anthropology of religion, with an emphasis on anomalistic phenomena. Fina d'Armada holds a Master's degree in Women's Studies. She has written five books about the Fatima incident, all based on original documents held in the archives =96 three co-authored with Fernandes =96 and hundreds of articles. Her research interests include phenomenology, local history, the history of women, and the era of Portuguese discovery. About the Book Heavenly Lights: The Apparitions of Fatima and the UFO Phenomenon By Joaquim Fernandes and Fina d'Armada Translated and Edited by Andrew D. Basiago and Eva M. Thompson Foreword by Jacques F. Vall=E9e EcceNova Editions Publication Date: July 2, 2005
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:36:38 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:31:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hall >From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >Hi Errol, List, >I think that the press are lambasting him because of some of his >beliefs and recent behaviour. He's free to believe in aliens, >that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and, if stories about >Scientology are true, body Thetans, Xenu etc. but I lost pretty >much any respect for his views when he stated that chemical >imbalances don't exist. Thank you, Adam. I have been waiting for some sanity to enter this... terrible waste of bandwidth in addition to the always sane views of Larry Hatch. Celebrities like Tom Cruise are going to rescue us? Give me a break. He is a good actor and I have enjoyed some of his movies (like Top Gun), but socially he obviously is an arrogant jerk who believes in crazy things like that fake religion Dianetics, er "Scientology" which of course is much smarter than mainstream science, and goes around using his celebrity to proselytize and call everyone who disagrees with him ignorant. Well, he should look in the mirror. What possible credibility could he bring to the table? I am surprised by Greg Boone, though sometimes you can't tell when he is kidding. I have been at this for nearly 50 years and have known and interacted with a number of celebrities of the show business and Hollywood variety over that time. Some of them are interested and have had personal sightings, but they have been of no practical help at all. Jackie Gleason was a member of NICAP and bought all of our publications, but never donated a penny to us. Steve Allen gave us $50 at the request of a member who knew him. Spielberg gave one modest donation to CUFOS, but nothing close to what he could do if he wanted to support serious research. I was amused by the thread about him; obviously he has a vested interest in UFO reports because he exploits them for personal profit. We can see how influential Hollywood celebrities are; just look at he fate of their presidential candidates! No, Greg, celebrities like Tom Cruise are not the answer, nor will they lift a finger to help us in any meaningful way. Now a respected celebrity like Walter Cronkite or (so we had hoped) Peter Jennings could make a difference by means of some kind of endorsement, but don't hold your breath waiting for something
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:45:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:35:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Shell >From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >I think that the press are lambasting him because of some of his >beliefs and recent behaviour. He's free to believe in aliens, >that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and, if stories about >Scientology are true, body Thetans, Xenu etc. but I lost pretty >much any respect for his views when he stated that chemical >imbalances don't exist. I just got home from a Sunday matinee of the new movie. Tom Cruise does a very fine job in the film, portraying a good, ordinary American guy whose world is suddenly rent asunder when Earth is attacked by Martians. He is a very talented actor, and the movie is a hell of a ride. As a person, he appears to be rather stupid and gullible, though. L. Ron Hubbard used to tell his friends about how he was going to found a religion, fleece the flock, and make himself rich. I guess his friends all thought he was just another nutcase. But damned if he didn't do it, and we're stuck with it still today. I'm not sure that it brings anything good to Ufology to have famous scientologists saying they believe in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 14:46:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:38:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Hatch >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >>>>Has anyone asked Jennifer Lopez what she thinks? ><snip> >>>You guys need to catch yourselves. Here the biggest box >>>office star in the world validates what this List is about and >>>the first thing you do is chop him up. As if it's not bad enough >>>the mainstreamers are tearing the guy apart and surprisingly, >>>they're losing, now the UFO community is dogging him too. >>>Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence >>>that spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >>>support them. How in the world is someone who investigates UFOs >>>gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >>>possibility? >>>Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >>>The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >>>than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and wife >>>beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >>>away from that lifestyle. >>>He's a smart man and no one today can equal his success at >>his game. He believes what most on this list believes? Then we >>should invite him to join in. <snip> >>Nobody is calling Tom Cruise moronic, it takes a lot of brains >>and ability to act. >>Nobody is calling him a scientist or philosopher either - >>I'm sure he wouldn't be comfortable with that. >>What bothers me is press/media that take his views on ufology >>(etc) and publish them, as if he knew more than the people >>right across the street, working in Burger King. >Larry, >Maybe I'm missing something here. Correct me if I'm wrong but >are you irritated that the press paid him more attention than >us? Or are you irritated that they paid him more attention than >you? Hello Greg, Adam .. I suppose I shouldn't have sounded off, since there are celebrity fans out there (chuckle!) After a hard week at work, I'm usually stuck at the supermarket checkout, visually assaulted by endless celeb-mags and the details of their lives. Then I get home and read what this or that star or starlet thinks of life in space, ufos etc. and I get more than a little annoyed. Virtually anyone on the Updates List is bound to know more about UFOs than some celebrity whose main concerns are in the entertainment world. I would welcome Tom Cruise to this List of course, but expect he has more pressing matters and demands on his time. I would prefer ufology to catch the attention of the readers of Scientific American say, than the devotees of People Magazine and the tabloids.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Not Progeria - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:08:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:55:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Not Progeria - Shell >From: Tab Goode <rosunwell.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:25:41 +0000 >Subject: Not Progeria >One of the cursed King, Henry VIII's wives, Anne Boleyn, had six >fingers, which was a 'recognised' sign of a witch. It is related >to a dominence of multiple chromosomes and is also known as >hyperdactylism. It does not mean she is 'extra-terrestrial' but >it should be accepted that she is not like you. I did not reply to this part earlier because I wanted some time to look into it. If you will look here: http://fine-eyes.net/anneboleyn/myths.html You will see that this is regarded as a myth. I strongly doubt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Resta From: Peter Resta <SPR100.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:18:43 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:59:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Resta >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> I second Greg's views - as far as the general public is concerned, "ufology" is typically seen as ranging from a strange curiosity to a joke - the mention of same often still produces the giggle factor in the psychology classes I teach. As for Cruise's view that "chemical imbalances" don't exist - he happens to be touching on a major controversy in the field of psychology/psychiatry, which has pretty much been "taken over' by people (especially psychiatrists) who believe that most emotional problems/ issues are "chemical" & therefore should be treated "chemically" (i.e., drugs), often without the scientific evidence to support such a claim, and with the result that millions of Americans - including toddlers - are being given powerful psychoactive drugs. And - all of this does not necessarily have anything to do with Scientology!! I have required readings about this in my classes & I am sure as hell, not a Scientologist. So, I for one _do_ believe that people like Cruise & Ackroyd have at least the potential of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Not Progeria - Shell From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:04:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Not Progeria - Shell >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:06:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: Not Progeria >>From: Tab Goode <rosunwell.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:25:41 +0000 >>Subject: Not Progeria <snip> >Ribs can clearly be seen at several points during the >dissection. The creature does have ribs. It is not >possible in the film to tell whether any teeth are present or >not, since the "surgeons" never pull back the lips. Malformed/missing teeth are textbook progeria, as is the underdeveloped jaw. >Yes, both eyes and pupils are much larger than human. Actually, they're not; it's just that the skin, "shrink-wrapped" as it is by the disease, bulge and appear disproportionately large. >>Also it has six fingers and six toes. Relatively common among progerics. I've found three references so far. Polydactyly usually occurs in the context of other genetic defects. >Also the ears are tiny and in a different location to normal. Textbook progeria. >Polydactyly is not associated with progeria. Yes it is. >The enlarged cranium is necessary to house a larger and >distinctly non-human brain. Hydrocephaly -- again, a common symptom of progeria -- does not in any way infer a larger, nonhuman brain. >We simply do not know the sex of this creature, or if it even >has sexual dimorphism as humans do. If you're committed to a nonhuman explanation, you'll never know. But the evidence suggests that the body is not only human, but female, probably adolescent. >There is a complete lack of development`of breasts or >even nipples. Not to sound like a broken record, but this is readily explained by progeria. >I believe the creature is neither male nor female. A >worker drone if you will. That is quite imaginative. But it does nothing to explain why this "drone" just happens to resemble a human with progeria in every way. Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Website: http://www.mactonnies.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 23:00:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:07:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Maccabee >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:26:33 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:29:03 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>Major celebs have contacts we can only dream of. Influence >>that >>>spans billions of people. If they're on our side we should >>>support them. How in the world is someone who investigates >>UFOs >>>gonna call rail on someone who believes or believes in the >>>possibility? >>Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the right side. >>>The public listens to stars like Cruise. He can be no weirder >>>than the numerous other celebs who get busted for drugs and >>wife >>>beating and drunk driving. At least he's decent enough to stay >>>away from that lifestyle. >>If you get the support of celebrities from any field, then you >>are most likely to be heard far and wide. The singing family, >>The Carpenters, came out with a song in the 70s titled, Calling >>Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft, or something like that, and, >>along with Close Encounters by Spielberg, it got everyone's >>attention. >No Cruise isn't a scientist or Ufologist but does it matter? >Some if not the majority of scientific leaps in history weren't >performed by mainstream scientists just guys and gals who had an >idea and the guts to move forward. >Bottom line here is we who are Ufologists must always be on our >toes not to introvert into a ball of bigotry. We can't become >the invalidating, harrassing, condescending monsters we've all >encountered while researching. >The public doesn't know the sacrifice, sweat, hardships both >financial and familial Ufologists go through. It's a battle >ground where you're always surrounded and under fire with >everyone watching and hoping you win but few with your courage >or smarts to enter the fray. >So when a big shot like Cruise sticks his neck out to speak his >piece, if I agree or not I respect him for his honesty and >clarity. >I say you guys should invite him to your lectures, radio shows >or even send him some of your materials. You might be surprised >at the results :) Larry King hasn't "endorsed" UFOs, but he has had, at the very least, a long-term "tolerance" for the subject (and possibly even a genuine interest). Wed, night,CNN, 9 PM EST, I will be on with several others (Robert Swiatek, from the Fund for UFO research and Budd Hopkins and me vs. Seth Shostak and the lady who asserts that all abduction stories arise from sleep paralysis... I think... forget her name at the moment).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Shell From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:42:47 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:10:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Shell >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:45:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:26 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>I think that the press are lambasting him because of some of >>his >>beliefs and recent behaviour. He's free to believe in aliens, >>that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and, if stories about >>Scientology are true, body Thetans, Xenu etc. but I lost pretty >>much any respect for his views when he stated that chemical >>imbalances don't exist. <snip> >I'm not sure that it brings anything good to >Ufology to have famous scientologists saying they believe in >aliens or UFOs, since they obviously are capable of believing >the most outlandish balderdash. Bingo. Shell you just made my case. A Ufologist accusing others of "believing the most outlandish balderdash." That's what I call the pot calling the kettle black. If it were a crime to believe balderdash then 6 billion people who believe in ghosts, gods, angels, demons, spirituality and UFOs are just as guilty. They have more physical proof for their beliefs than any Ufologist, but again they're capable of believing the most outlandish balderdash. Gimme a break.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:54:45 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:13:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:36:38 +0000 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:26 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>Hi Errol, List, >>I think that the press are lambasting him because of some of his >>beliefs and recent behaviour. He's free to believe in aliens, >>that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and, if stories about >>Scientology are true, body Thetans, Xenu etc. but I lost pretty >>much any respect for his views when he stated that chemical >>imbalances don't exist. >Thank you, Adam. I have been waiting for some sanity to enter >this... terrible waste of bandwidth in addition to the always >sane views of Larry Hatch. >Celebrities like Tom Cruise are going to rescue us? Give me a >break. He is a good actor and I have enjoyed some of his >movies >(like Top Gun), but socially he obviously is an arrogant jerk >who believes in crazy things like that fake religion Dianetics, >er "Scientology" which of course is much smarter than >mainstream >science, and goes around using his celebrity to proselytize and >call everyone who disagrees with him ignorant. Well, he should >look in the mirror. What possible credibility could he bring to >the table? Uh yeah, dig yourself dude. You sound like a disinformationalist in training. How the hell is a Ufologist going to criticize someone's credibility? 50 years of research and no physical evidence to solve this UFO mystery once and for all? You're calling a man you've never met 'crazy' but you're a Ufologist? Who died and elected you Lord of the Sane? It wasn't too long ago that Ufologists and abductees and witnesses and whistleblowers were thrown into psychiatric centers and jails or worse or maybe you forgot all that. Ask around, I'm sure some folks in the real world and on this list would remind you. >I am surprised by Greg Boone, though sometimes you can't tell >when he is kidding. I have been at this for nearly 50 years and >have known and interacted with a number of celebrities of the >show business and Hollywood variety over that time. Some of >them >are interested and have had personal sightings, but they have >been of no practical help at all. Jackie Gleason was a member >of >NICAP and bought all of our publications, but never donated a >penny to us. Steve Allen gave us $50 at the request of a >member >who knew him. Spielberg gave one modest donation to CUFOS, >but >nothing close to what he could do if he wanted to support >serious research. I was amused by the thread about him; >obviously he has a vested interest in UFO reports because he >exploits them for personal profit. 50 years? See above. As for those celebs you've met who didn't contribute, it might be they're just good judges of character. Being condescending and bigotted might not get you brownie points with these people. Try some understanding and compassion and objective application and it might get you somewhere. >We can see how influential Hollywood celebrities are; just look >at he fate of their presidential candidates! No, Greg, >celebrities like Tom Cruise are not the answer, nor will they >lift a finger to help us in any meaningful way. Now a respected >celebrity like Walter Cronkite or (so we had hoped) Peter >Jennings could make a difference by means of some kind of >endorsement, but don't hold your breath waiting for something >like that to happen either. Who said Cruise is the answer? All he did was agree with the majority of people on this List and the American public about extraterrestrial life. His views on psychiatry are either true or not but for Ufology his ability to just up and say so is what I'm interested in. Now I can see why the Jennings folks and mainstream news shy from Ufology and lambaste it whenever they get the chance. They do their research on some Ufologists and come up with the kind of comments we see here. Ufologist has some damned nerve calling someone gullible and crazy and arrogant. That's what I call the pot calling the kettle black.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:04:19 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:16:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 14:46:57 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >>Maybe I'm missing something here. Correct me if I'm wrong but >>are you irritated that the press paid him more attention than >>us? Or are you irritated that they paid him more attention than >>you? >I suppose I shouldn't have sounded off, since there are >celebrity fans out there (chuckle!) >After a hard week at work, I'm usually stuck at the supermarket >checkout, visually assaulted by endless celeb-mags and the >details of their lives. >Then I get home and read what this or that star or starlet >thinks of life in space, ufos etc. and I get more than a little >annoyed. >Virtually anyone on the Updates List is bound to know more >about >UFOs than some celebrity whose main concerns are in the >entertainment world. >I would welcome Tom Cruise to this List of course, but expect >he >has more pressing matters and demands on his time. >I would prefer ufology to catch the attention of the readers of >Scientific American say, than the devotees of People Magazine >and the tabloids. That's a breath of fresh air Larry. You're able to see through the darkness unlike some others on this List I now know I would never carry into combat. I cannot believe the arrogance and short-sightedness and bigotry I've been reading from Ufologists! Ufologists! Ufologists calling people 'crazy' or 'gullible' for their beliefs and opinions yet these same Ufologists will sit at a bar or around a campfire talking about little green men, crashed flying saucers, brain eating monsters and God knows what else, but for some reason 'they' can authorize 'credibility'. I now know the real reason why Ufology gets so screwed up. It's because the same foibles Ufologists beef about skeptics, the government, mainstream news and science are the same foibles these Ufologists exhibit whenever 'their' viewpoints and opinions aren't shared or asked for. You can't put out a fire if you keep lighting your own ass on fire.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:13:21 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:24:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Boone >From: Peter Resta <SPR100.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul, UFO->UpDates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:18:43 EDT >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:46:33 EDT >>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:58:13 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens ><snip> >I second Greg's views - as far as the general public is >concerned, "ufology" is typically seen as ranging from a >strange curiosity to a joke - the mention of same often still >produces the giggle factor in the psychology classes I teach. Thanks Pete, glad a professional psychologist is speaking up. I grew up around the biggest psychiatric centers on the planet and saw it first hand. I'm still learning what psychiatry really is thanks to the Jeff Rense Program. But yes, I'm sitting here laughing my keister off at how some Ufologists are referring to Mr. Cruise as 'crazy' or 'credibility' issues! How can a Ufologist even attempt to invalidate someone? This field of research is considered by the entire planet as the silliest, incredible, nutty, useless field of research known to man. The public eats it up like candy but you don't see them beating a path to the Ufology door to pitch in. Why? Because they don't want the happy wagon to wheel around and toss em in a rubber room. Of all the nerve for some Ufologists to act like they're the word on what's credible or not. What's sane or not. That's a damned shame to even associate with people like that. Calling someone's religious beliefs 'crazy' is just outright disrespect for everyone. There's no religion on the planet that doesn't sound like someone made it up after a belt of some good scotch but that doesn't dissuade 6 billion + for believeing. Especially after a disaster. Remember after 911? You had to shoehorn people to get enough room in the churches then. Nothing like a good ol' disaster to get people spiritual. Cruise believes what he believes and speaks his mind on it that's his birthright as an American citizen.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Comet Impact Images Only Hours Away From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:28:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:46:27 -0400 Subject: Comet Impact Images Only Hours Away Hello all: Those interested in space matters may want to see near realtime images of the 'deep impact' of a space probe into comet Tempel-1 http://deepimpact.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html Images will be added to a special window accessible from the blue link on page above called: "View Near Real-Time Images from Deep Impact" .. about 6 inches down top of page in the middle. Opinions vary as to likely results, from a distant puff of dust to a nice show visible from the ground if you have binoculars and know where to look. Some good science will come out of this if all goes well, astronomers are highly hopeful. Impact is scheduled a few minutes before 0200 hrs Monday 4JLY05 EST, or before 11 PM PST for the West coast, Sunday night.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Deep Impact 4th July With Deep Space Fireworks From: NASANews.nul Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 04:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:49:15 -0400 Subject: Deep Impact 4th July With Deep Space Fireworks Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington July 4, 2005 (Phone: 202/358-1753) DC Agle Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. (Phone: 818/393-9011) Lee Tune University of Maryland, College Park (Phone: 301/405-4679) RELEASE: 05-250 DEEP IMPACT KICKS OFF FOURTH OF JULY WITH DEEP SPACE FIREWORKS After 172 days and 268 million miles of deep space stalking, Deep Impact successfully reached out and touched comet Tempel 1. The collision between the coffee table- sized impactor and city- sized comet occurred at 1:52 am EDT. "What a way to kick off America's Independence Day," said Deep Impact project manager Rick Grammier of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "The challenges of this mission and teamwork that went into making it a success, should make all of us very proud." "This mission is truly a smashing success," said Andy Dantzler, director of NASA's Solar System Division. "Tomorrow and in the days ahead we will know a lot more about the origins of our solar system." Official word of the impact came 5 minutes after impact when, at 1:57 am EDT, an image from the spacecraft's medium resolution camera was downlinked to the computer screens of the mission's science team showed the tell-tale signs of a high-speed impact. "The image clearly shows a spectacular impact," said Deep Impact principal investigator Dr. Michael A'Hearn of the University of Maryland, College Park. "With this much data we have a long night ahead of us, but that is what we were hoping for. There is so much here it is difficult to know where to begin." The celestial collision and ensuing data collection by the nearby Deep Impact mothership was the climax of a very active 24 hour period for the mission which began with impactor release at 2:07 am EDT on July 3. Deep space maneuvers by the flyby, final checkout of both spacecraft and comet imaging took up most of the next 22 hours. Then, the impactor got down to its last two hours of life. "The impactor kicked into its autonomous navigation mode right on time," said Deep Impact navigator Shyam Bhaskaran, of JPL. "Our preliminary analysis indicates the three impactor targeting maneuvers occurred on time at 90, 35 and 12.5 minutes before impact." At the moment the impactor was vaporizing itself in its 6.3 miles a second collision with comet Tempel 1, the Deep Impact flyby spacecraft was monitoring events from nearby and will continue to do so for the next several days. "The flyby surviving closest approach and shield mode has put the cap on an outstanding day," said Grammier. "Soon, we will begin the process of downlinking all the encounter information in one batch and hand it to the science team." Deep Impact will provide a glimpse beneath the surface of a comet, where material from the solar system's formation remains relatively unchanged. Mission scientists expect the project will answer basic questions about the formation of the solar system, by offering a better look at the nature and composition of the frozen celestial travelers known as comets. The University of Maryland is responsible for overall Deep Impact mission science, and project management is handled by JPL. The spacecraft was built for NASA by Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corporation, Boulder, Colo. For information about Deep Impact on the Internet, visit: www.nasa.gov/deepimpact -end- * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo.nul In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Exopolitics Institute Launched From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:09:36 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:24:40 -0400 Subject: Exopolitics Institute Launched Press Release Announcement of the Exopolitics Institute - July 4, 2005 Aloha all, I am delighted to announce the creation of the Exopolitics Institute. Dedicated to the most paradigm shifting field of research today, the political implications of the extraterrestrial presence, this Institute will support exopolitical activism and the study of exopolitics. We are launching the Exopolitics Institute on this illustrious day of the 4th of July. Over 200 years ago a founding vision of a new representational system for the people, created by the people, was implemented. Today, the Exopolitics Institute sets forth its own vision of citizen based representation, and transparent government accountability concerning extraterrestrial affairs - for the people, created by the people. It is time to end the secrecy and examine openly the extraterrestrial presence which is supported by credible, extensive and thoroughly compelling evidence. And further, to understand its impact upon our lives. The Institute aims to provide resources for scholars researching exopolitics so that these capable men and women can share their pioneering work and information with a public ready to know the truth. Also promoted by the Exopolitics Institute are the topics of full disclosure of extraterrestrial information; the idea of transparency in all government activities related to extraterrestrial issues; assistance to those performing �exopolitical activism�; and to promote those individuals who have credible evidence of contact with extraterrestrials. You can learn more about the Institute in terms of its goals and activities at: www.exopoliticsinstitute.org. The Institute will also be the home of the "Journal of Exopolitics" which is being simultaneously launched with the Exopolitics Institute. The Journal of Exopolitics will provide an outlet for scholars and activists to publish their analyses of various issues and activities related to the study of exopolitics and exopolitical activism (see http://www.exopolitics.org/Journal-home.htm). The biggest hurdle confronting those promoting expolitical study and activism is a lack of resources. The Exopolitics Institute will be a means to provide needed resources to those out in the field doing the rigorous work of studying exopolitics issues, promoting exopolitical awareness, and disseminating information about extraterrestrial contacts. Among the notable scholars, journalists and activists serving on the various boards of the Exopolitics Institute are: Dr James Deardorff (scholar/scientist); Dr Thomas Hansen (scholar/educator); Paola Harris, M.Ed. (journalist/educator); Ed Komarek (political activist); Dr Simeon Hein (scholar/educator); and Alfred Webre, J.D. (futurist/activist); for bios see: http://www.exopolitics.org/institute-about.htm . Success of the Exopolitics Institute will rely upon the collective voice of public interest, membership support, and the diligent research of dedicated people disseminating clear information about extraterrestrial affairs. Everyone can play a direct role in promoting exopolitical awareness, and the first step is sharing the information at hand. All are invited to forward this press release, visit our web site and to become a member of the Exopolitics Institute. Thank you for your continued interest in and support of exopolitics. Michael E. Salla, Ph.D. Founder, Exopolitics Institute
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Review - Alien Autopsy Inquest From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:29:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 14:56:45 -0400 Subject: Review - Alien Autopsy Inquest Review by Andy Roberts Title: Alien Autopsy Inquest. Author: Philip Mantle. Publisher: Filament Books - www.filamentbooks.com The Alien Autopsy changed the world of ufology forever in 1995, shattering it into ever more polarised factions. Was it real or was it fake? The autopsy film transcended both categories to take on a reality of its own. British ufologist Philip Mantle was closely involved with the film from the start and in this e- book chronicles the passage of the autopsy from its birth, when Ray Santilli revealed it to the world, to its current status as icon of the impossible. All the four major theories (real ET, hoax, disinformation film and deformed human) are all looked into objectively and in some depth. And it's true to say there are pros and cons for all of them depending on where your beliefs lie and what constitutes your level of 'proof'. There's enough information about the film to satisfy the most diehard skeptic or believer. Yet that's not the most interesting part of the book, by far. This comes in the penultimate chapter where Philip gets an exclusive interview with Ray Santilli. This is fascinating reading but I can't help thinking that Santilli is too slick, too full of glib answers. His excuses for why a piece of the film has never been released for analysis don't add up ("I don't think the circumstances have been right"), and his belief that the cameraman or his family may come out of the closet to put the stamp of authenticity on the film jibe with his refusal to let science authenticate the film, the canister or the written labels. Ultimately Santilli is a business man and if a business man of his acumen really believed he had film footage of the greatest moment in planet Earth's history I for one don't believe he would have handled it as he did, but instead would have had the film scientifically validated and made serious money and a place in history from it. As it is Santilli says the money he made was "all part of normal business". Can the final proof that the US military did an autopsy on a being from another planet really be reduced to 'normal business'? I don't think so. There are many ways Santilli could, if he wished, have settled the matter of the film's authenticity once and for all. Yet instead he chose to manipulate ufology and to create a media circus and a cash cow from which I don't think the last dollar has been yet milked. But this reviewers' cynicism, reeling with a head full of suspicion from too many years spent in ufology, won't alter the reality - whatever that is - of the AA film. Ten years on and this hybrid between Cluedo and the X Files still provokes extreme reactions wherever it is discussed. If it's a hoax Santilli has pulled off the greatest in history. Santilli claims that those who believe it to be a hoax must prove it so. That's not the case - the onus is on the people making claims of alien origin for the cadaver to prove that's what it is. As neither they nor Santilli have done that, and the mystery and mythology continue to accrete around the film. Mantle has done an excellent job in rounding up all you need to know about the AA film and this e-book should be read by everyone with an interest in the subject of aliens.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 4 Show Us Aliens Says Microsoft From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:50:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:00:38 -0400 Subject: Show Us Aliens Says Microsoft Source: Metro, UK http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/londoncuts/articles/19489910?source=Metro Thursday June 23, 2005 Show Us Aliens, Says Microsoft Microsoft is inviting Net surfers to prove little green men exist. The software giant is inviting users of its MSN Web portal to 'take a picture' of a UFO or alien and publish it on their blogs - online scrapbooks - with an explanation of how they came across it. Obviously, there is a lot of room for technical creativity. The best entry will be picked by ex-Ministry of Defense analysts and win a visit to the NASA Space Center in Florida - but snaps of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 5 List Off-Line Until July 14th From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:37:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:37:29 -0400 Subject: List Off-Line Until July 14th Gentle Subscribers & Readers, The List's summer-break is upon us and nothing will be posted to either subscribers or the UFO UpDates Archive until late, Thursday, July 14th.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:42:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:53:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens - Kaeser >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:45:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: Cruise Believes In Aliens <snip> >I just got home from a Sunday matinee of the new movie. Tom >Cruise does a very fine job in the film, portraying a good, >ordinary American guy whose world is suddenly rent asunder when >Earth is attacked by Martians. He is a very talented actor, and >the movie is a hell of a ride. >As a person, he appears to be rather stupid and gullible, >though. L. Ron Hubbard used to tell his friends about how he was >going to found a religion, fleece the flock, and make himself >rich. I guess his friends all thought he was just another >nutcase. But damned if he didn't do it, and we're stuck with it >still today. I'm not sure that it brings anything good to >Ufology to have famous scientologists saying they believe in >aliens or UFOs, since they obviously are capable of believing >the most outlandish balderdash. >Bob Shell Hi Bob, Take a look at the story of Xenu Go to http://www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/ and select a format. Somehow the question of whether one should listen to Tom Cruise or Richard Hall in regard to ufology seems like comparing apples and rocks, and IMO is just about as pointless. I've seen so much
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:56:19 -0400 Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> To: <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday Larry King has been collecting information for a program to air Wednesday, which will be in response (at least in part) to the War of the Worlds movie. John Scheussler, Bud Hopkins, and Rob Swiatek are among those interviewed and we ll have to see where the CNN program goes with this. A lot of general UFO information has been collected and it will be interesting to see how much is actually used. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Welsh UFO Fan Digs Up Real-Life X-Files From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:01:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:01:50 -0400 Subject: Welsh UFO Fan Digs Up Real-Life X-Files Source: South Wales Echo & ICWales http://tinyurl.com/7o4ub July 4 2005 UFO Fan Chris Digs Up Real-Life X-Files David James South Wales Echo The truth is out there - perhaps lurking in a detached house in Rumney, Cardiff. A South Wales UFO fan has dug up the real-life X-files thanks to a new law allowing access to Government information. Through the Freedom of Information Act, 34-year-old Chris Fowler obtained a detailed 107-page Ministry of Defence report into a night when 70 UFO sightings were reported across Britain - including South Wales. The sightings were taken so seriously that high-level consultations were carried out to see if it could have been top- secret trials of American stealth aircraft. Chris, who has been interested in UFOs for many years, was delighted with his discovery. He said: 'Ninety per cent of UFO stuff is rubbish but there is a good deal that is really interesting and just cannot be explained away. Everyone should know about stuff like this as it's not enough just to dismiss it out of hand as so many people do.' One witness, a Met officer at RAF Shrewsbury, saw an object the size of a jumbo jet projecting a narrow beam of light at the ground from a height of 400 to 500 foot over his head. The report released to him contains maps of the sightings on March 31, 1993, police reports, correspondence, witness statements. The author's name has been blanked out, but he wrote: 'There are a number of factors that make these sightings unusual. There is a great deal of commonality in many of the sightings and the reliability of the witnesses, a good deal of whom were police officers and military personnel. My staff have made extensive
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 27 - Hayes From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:04:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:06:13 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 27 - Hayes Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 27 July 6, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ GIGANTIC UFO SEEN NEAR LAKE MICHIGAN TRIANGLE On Tuesday, June 21, 2005, at 3:30 a.m., Alexander Reynolds and a few fishing buddies were trying their luck at a private beach on Cat's Head Point near Northport, Michigan (population 868), a small town 30 miles (50 kilometers) north of Traverse City. Then one of them noticed a strange glow over Lake Michigan. "Me and a few friends were having a fish fry on a private beach in the early morning," Alex reported, "Then we all noticed an extremely large sphere of light southwest of our location. (The beach faces due west onto Lake Michigan--A.R.) The object appeared to be many miles away. However, by size compared to its apparent distance, I'd say it was 1,000 feet (300 meters) in diameter--or larger." "It looked about twice as big as the moon would be on the horizon. None of us saw it approach. Mainly, one moment it was there, then it caught my eye all of a sudden. It initially looked like a big circle with the top sheared off just a bit above the center. It then 'grew' another sphere, and this one went below the horizon (heading for Wisconsin--J.T.)." "Its color was a burning orange, and the object's actual size may be reduced due to the brightness of the sky. It was as if the sun could be seen in the night sky, except that it illuminated nothing but itself--a giant burning ball. The whole thing lasted maybe 15 to 20 minutes. I would say the object was about 100 feet (30 meters) above the surface of" Lake Michigan. (Email Form Report) Elsewhere in Michigan, on Tuesday, May 17, 2005, eyewitness A.M. reported, "It was just about 10 p.m., and I was home" in Wixom, Michigan (population 13,263) "watching TV. Strange lights caught the corner of my eye. I got up and looked out the window and saw a triangular- shaped craft flying very low over the grounds of my home." The object, he added, "was triangular, almost L- shaped, with lights on both sides. On the left side, the lights were white, blue, green, blue; and on the right side the colors were white, blue, purple, red. The object was only 100 feet (30 meters) above my home. It was moving slowly at 35 miles per hour." Wixom, Mich. is on the Pontiac Trail about 15 miles (25 kilometers) northwest of Detroit. (Email Form Report) (Editor's Comment: Welcome to USA, Watch the Skies Week here at UFO Roundup. For some unknown reason, the incidence of UFO sightings here in the USA is up sharply-- right in time for our Fourth of July holiday.) UFOs SPOTTED IN TWO ARIZONA CITIES On Sunday, June 26, 2005, at 9:45 p.m., eyewitness M.J. spotted a UFO at her home in South Scottsdale, Arizona while looking east towards the Salt River Pima- Maricopa Indian Reservation and Mount McDowell. "We received a phone call last night to come outside and see the lights in the sky," M.J. reported, "Our neighbors had been watching it for a few minutes already. We went in the backyard, and at first did not see anything because they were behind some trees. So I went into the front yard to get a better look and then I saw it. It was colorful lights that moved about." "My neighbors wanted me to watch in their backyard, so I did." "I watched these lights change color from green to red and, I think, even blue. It moved from about left to right, from really low down to very high up. I could not see the shape of the object, just where it was moving and the color transformation." "My neighbor said there were two or three others, as well. It would even sit stationary for a while, change color and then move again. The lights were very bright! Sometimes it showed all the different bright colors at the same time. I wondered if it was a police chopper (helicopter--J.T.) following someone, but it couldn't have been that at all. No helicopter could move like this! Plus, it made absolutely no noise at all." "It was not too high up. I would guess from the direction I was looking it would be about the height of a five-story building (i.e. 50 feet or 15 meters off the ground--J.T.). It was a warm summer night, clear skies, stars visible. It would be as fast as a helicopter but so fast that it would leave a trail of lights behind it. It was like free-falling slowly, then back up again. We are not really sure how low to the ground it got. It went left and right at the same speed." "I do not believe in aliens driving around in spaceships. I believe in military coverups. This is what I, and three other people, saw." South Scottsdale, Ariz. is on McDowell Road about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northeast of Phoenix. (Email Form Report) On Thursday, June 30, 2005, at 8:35 p.m., Judith Playter was outdoors at her home in Sun City, Arizona (population 38,309) when she spotted something very unusual in the night sky. "I was in front of my house facing north when the object appeared," Judith reported, "It was not saucer- shaped but more elongated--the size of a Navy (aircraft) carrier, I think. It was an effervescent silver. It was about 1,000 feet (300 meters) above me. The UFO movement was extremely fast. I'm not good at speed--I'd say 500 miles per hour (800 kilometers per hour). The object approached from the southwest and flew north. It shot straight up, then went north towards Flagstaff." Sun City, Ariz. is on Highway 60, located about 30 miles (50 kilometers) north-northwest of Phoenix. (Email Form Report) STAR-LIKE UFO SEEN OVER WINSTED, CONNECTICUT On Saturday, June 25, 2005, at 3 a.m., Dean Burgess was taking a break at work in Winsted, Connecticut (population 7,321), doing a little stargazing, when he spied something odd in the night sky. "I was at work having a break at 3 a.m.," Dean reported, "It was a clear night, and the stars were really bright. As usual, I was stargazing. At first I saw what I thought was a satellite, but it was too low and moving too slow." "This star-like object was very weak. Suddenly, it produced the brightest white light I have ever seen. This lasted for about 30 seconds. As this happened, the object moved slowly along. As it moved, it got dimmer until it completely disappeared. The object disappeared not from distance but actually vanished." "The object was oval is shape, and the only feature I could see was the light itself. I'd estimate its altitude at 30,000 feet (9,000 meters), but I have no idea of its speed." Winsted, Conn. is on Routes 8 and 44, located about 30 miles (50 kilometers) northwest of Hartford, the state capital. (Email Form Report) (Editor's Note: Winsted is "the Fortean capital of Connecticut." The whole gamut of Forteana was reported in this little furniture-making town during the Nineteenth and Twentieth centuries--crazy crocs, poltergeists, levitating furniture, UFOs, Bigfoot sightings, you name it. Example--a "star-like UFO" identical to Dean's was seen over Winsted on June 24, 1907.) GLOWING ORB SIGHTED IN SEASIDE NORTH CAROLINA On Monday, June 27, 2005, at 9:25 p.m., Shannon Holt was at her home in Kill Devils Hills, North Carolina (population 5,897), on the Atlantic Ocean shore north of Cape Hatteras, when she had a UFO encounter. Shannon reported, "When I first saw the object, I was standing facing south and moved outside of my porch. I saw that the object was moving up and over the sky and turned east-northeast to face it. I was watching outside of my screened-in front porch. I was facing south towards the K-Mart that is located a few houses down at the end of my street, thinking about how I wished they didn't have so many lamps in that parking lot." "Suddenly, in the distance, above and to the right of the street lamp, I noticed the object in the sky. I wasn't sure what to make of it at first, and then the object darted back and forth as it continued to move further up into the sky." "It was strange-looking. The best way I can describe it is to say it looked like an orb. It did not have any bright lights or anything. The only light it did give off was a very soft whitish glow which may or may not have come directly from the object. It could have been reflecting light from below--or from the night sky." "It also seemed to blend in with the sky, which I think would have made it difficult for a lot of people to take notice. Also, there was no sound whatsoever. I was only able to see it for less than a minute before it disappeared behind some clouds." "It was about 9:25 p.m., and the sky was partly cloudy as there was a thunderstorm that afternoon, though by evening there were more storms passing through though still off in the distance. I first noticed the object at about a 40-degree angle from the ground. I am unsure to explain the (object's) speed except to say it seemed to me it covered a great deal of distance in only 60 seconds until it disappeared into the clouds over the beach." Kill Devil Hills, N.C. is on Highway BR-158, located about 250 miles (400 kilometers) east of Raleigh. (Email Form Report) NIGHT SAUCERS SPOTTED IN TWO TEXAS TOWNS On Tuesday, June 28, 2005, at 9:45 p.m., Kim Gresham spotted a night saucer hovering over her hometown of Bulverde, Texas. "It was a black object with a light at the bottom, which was found to have a halo effect," Kim reported, "It was hovering in the eastern sky, then it floated southward. The object remained stationary for approximately 20 minutes. Its shape was not at all distinctive, mainly circular. However, it was silver in color." "Before 'floating off,' its light/halo began to take on an azure color. Later in the evening, it became more of a shade of orange." (Email Form Report) On Friday, June 24, 2005, at 11 p.m., eyewitness Doug R. reported, "I was night-fishing in Port O'Connor, Texas (population 1,200) with my two sons. Between 11 p.m. and midnight, we saw four lights moving. One light was by itself. We saw it while it was just overhead. It was very high, a solid white/yellow light. No noise, no red, green or strobe lights. Move very fast from a southwesterly direction towards the northeast." "The other three lights were in a triangular formation, also very high. No noise, no other colored lights and very fast. They moved in formation from the northeast to the southwest." "The first light was by itself and was at about 80 degrees up (from the horizon--J.T.), moving from southwest to northeast." "The formation of three lights was about 70 degrees up and moved in formation from northeast to southwest about 15 to 30 minutes after the first one departed. Each sighting lasted about 15 seconds." Port O'Connor is on Highway 185, on the shores of East Matagorda Bay, about 60 miles (100 kilometers) northeast of Corpus Christi. (Email Form Report) NIGHT SAUCER SEEN NEAR HOLLIS, OKLAHOMA "Last night (Friday, July 1, 2005), I was fishing at Lake Hall, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) north of Hollis, Oklahoma (population 2,264)," reported Mr. Blake, the eyewitness. "After being there for some time, a line of thunderstorms began to move into the area, so I began to gather my things up and put them in the back of the truck. I had my back to the lake while picking up my tackle when suddenly there was a bright flash of lightning. Then it dawned on me that there hadn't been any crash of thunder from this particular lightning bolt, and there was still a bit of a glow left in the sky." "So I turned around and looked, and there was this saucer-shaped thing hovering over the lake. It didn't make a sound but seemed to be greenish-yellow in color and had a small protrusion attached to the bottom." "I was where I had stood around to watch it, but suddenly I was overcome with fear and jumped into my truck and got the hell out of there. I've been in combat before, but I'd never felt fear like this before." On Saturday, July 2, 2005, "after I calmed down, I called a friend of mine who had been interested in UFOs for a long time and told him what happened. He told me that there was a local fella named Jim Hickman that studied UFOs, and that I should look him up on the Internet." "When I told Jim what the thing had looked like, he said it sounded a lot like the one seen near Willow, Oklahoma some time ago." Upon visiting Jim Hickman's Web site, Blake added, "I shouted, 'Holy shit! That's it!' out loud. Sorry for my language, but that's what I said at the time." Hollis is on Highway 62 in southwestern Oklahoma about 125 miles (208 kilometers) southwest of Oklahoma City. (Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International, for this report.) LUMINOUS UFO SEEN BY A COUPLE IN ONTARIO On Saturday, July 2, 2005, at 11:30 p.m., eyewitness Deb Nixon reported, "I had just gotten off work" in London, Ontario, Canada (population 325,646) "and was outside talking to my husband, who also witnessed the sighting. We were facing south, and I happened to look up to the west when a bright light seemed to be coming down very fast out of the sky." "I pointed this out to my husband. And we both watched it immediately begin to fade. It looked as if it was going back up into the sky very rapidly until we could no longer see it. The total time of the sighting was under 15 seconds. There was no noise, and the night was uncommonly clear for our area. There were many stars visible." London, Ont. is on Provincial Highway 2 approximately 132 miles (211 kilometers) southwest of Toronto, Canada's largest city. (Email Form Report) UFOs REPORTED IN DORSET AND CHESHIRE, UK On Sunday, June 26, 2005, the eyewitness, Mr. Fosdike, was at his home in Lytchett Matravers, Poole, Dorset, UK, "sitting and watching the climax of a film on television at midnight, and I heard the extremely loud rumble of an engine near my home. I opened my blinds and saw the extremely large low-flying object heading extremely fast through the sky. It covered my garden, went through the trees and turned northwest. It was flashing two white lights and was alternating between a red and blue one as it flew." "It disappeared from view behind some leaves before reappearing roughly five minutes later. I sat and waited for the UFO to return, and it did at about 12:35 a.m. It flew across the sky at a very high altitude before disappearing out of my view southeastwards. I would say it was large, at least 20 metres (66 feet) across. Its approach speed was 150 miles per hour, and its departure speed was 250 miles per hour." A UFO was seen the following day, Monday, June 27, 2005, at 3 p.m., in the seaport city of Liverpool. "My colleague had popped out of her office for her usual cigarette break and called me outside to look at something she said was in the sky," eyewitness Russ Fewtrell reported, "I went outside and I saw four very bright, almost star-like lights that were in a strange formation directly above the building over the river Mersey. The objects at first did not seem to be moving, but, after a few minutes, it became clear that these things were tracking east across the sky." "The afternoon was exceptionally clear with very bright sunshine, but the objects could be made out with the naked eye." "What startled me was the altitude these objects were at, as I glimpsed several high-altitude aircraft that passed over at least 25,000 to 28,000 feet (7,500 to 8,400 meters) high." "My immediate thought was that these were either high-altitude balloons or possibly weather balloons, but I was not convinced, simply because they moved east and broke formation and seemed to move closer together again and then further apart whilst moving very slowly. We studied them for over half an hour until at this point the two top objects broke away from the bottom two and started heading in a southwesterly direction but seemed to climb higher into the sky." "All the time we watched, we witnessed no vapour trails (condensation trails or contrails in the USA-- J.T.)--no flashing lights and no sound. The objects were visible for over 45 minutes before they totally and suddenly vanished from sight at around 3:55 p.m." "The most unusual thing I witnessed was that while I was following their movement across the sky, I saw at least a further six or seven of these things, but faintly lit, as if they were some distance away--possibly very high indeed. These other shapes were only visible around one or two minutes before they faded away. All I can confirm is that these things were also tracking east across the sky." "There were several eyewitnesses who saw these events, but unfortunately we could not magnify the objects as we had no binoculars. I am reporting this sighting mostly because I have never experienced anything like this before, and I wondered if anyone else in the Wurral/Liverpool area managed to see these objects." (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS UFO SIGHTED BY MANY IN INDONESIA On Sunday, June 26, 2005, at 5:50 p.m., Mrs. M.S. Gumelar was doing her housework at her home in Graha Yasa Asri, Serva Sawangan Depok district, West Java, Indonesia when her daughter came rushing in. "When my daughter told me there was something in the sky, I went outside," Mrs. Gumelar reported, "My neighbours had already looked at it, so I quickly looked up and scanned the sky. It looked to me something like a meteor coming down but slowly. So I quickly went inside, took my DVD camcorder and I recorded a few seconds of its descent." "After talking with my neighbours, I decided to download it to my personal computer. I still have the original images on DVD-RW." "Later that evening, my family and I watched the news on television. There was no airplane crash or meteor strike anywhere in Indonesia. Because if it was a meteor, it must have been a very large meteor, and there was no sound of an explosion. I don't know what it was." (Email Form Report) ANOMALOUS LIGHT FLASH STARTLES FAMILY IN CHILE "A family returning home to Santiago de Chile witnessed the road and the surrounding countryside become 'illuminated' by a 'light.' They still cannot explain what happened." "Sunday night (June 26, 2005) turned into daytime for a few moments, at least for members of the Abdo family. As they returned to Santiago de Chile from the city of Loreto, where they had spent the weekend, 'the road and the surrounding countryside lit up mysteriously' only a few minutes before the Vuelta de la Barranca road sign." "'I saw a tremendous glow that turned the area into daylight. We could see clearly into the fields on either side of our car, both front and back and to the sides,' said Gaby Dahey, Carlos Abdo's wife and mother of Carlitos," in an interview with the Chilean newspaper El Liberal. "The vehicle's occupants explained that the 'light' had a 'soft sky-blue color' that came 'from above,' although they were unable to see any other vehicle that could be identified." "Carlitos revealed that he saw a white swath on the horizon similar to the one left in the wake of a jet airliner." "The car and its occupants traveled for a distance of 200 meters (660 feet) with 'everything lit up' around them. The 'brightness' disappeared as suddenly as it emerged. Darkness enveloped the car once more, and the car's headlights continued to illuminate a small area of the highway." "Only a few years ago, residents of the area claimed to have seen UFOs along the highway." (See the Chilean newspaper El Liberal for June 27, 2005. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Martha Rosenthal por este articulo de diario.) MAN IN BLACK TERRORIZES CORDOBA, ARGENTINA "Witches don't exist, but there's no denying they're out there. In Cordoba, an operator for a factory located on Route 13 claims having seen just such an apparition." "His name is Cristian Howard Godoy, an employee of Grupo Pilar, and he claims he had a run-in with a witch." "'It occurred some 7 meters (23 feet) from the (factory) bathroom. It wore black clothing and a hood. The face was aged and white as chalk, and it had something quite huge inside its gown. I took a quick look and got out quickly.'" "The event took place two weeks ago (mid-June 2005-- J.T.)." "But yesterday (Wednesday, June 29, 2005) the entire city of Cordoba was mystified by an alleged new apparition. The police stated that no reports were received on the matter." "Corporate management was clear: 'We do not wish to have this turn into a never-ending story. We want to nip it in the bud.'" "Beyond any disturbance that the subject may cause, the fact remains that Cristian's story remains a cause for concern among local residents." Cordoba is the capital of the province of the same name, located 400 kilometers (250 miles) west-northwest of Buenos Aires, Argentina's capital. (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Cristian Quintero del grupo Planeta UFO para estas noticias.) (Editor's Comment: The black-clad entity in Cordoba sounds like a relative of El Loco de los Techos (Spanish for Rooftop Madman--J.T.), the black-clad "Springheeled Jack" who terrorized northern Argentina back in March 2005. See UFO Roundup, volume 10, number 10 for March 9, 2005, "Real-life 'Nightcrawler' terrorizes city in Argentina," page 2, and UFO Roundup, volume 10, number 11 for March 16, 2005, "Rooftop Madman strikes again in Santa Fe, Argentina," page 2.) TOM CRUISE: THE ALIENS ARE OUT THERE "Tom Cruise says there may be life beyond the stars, but it's not here yet." "The War of the Worlds star told the German tabloid Blid that he believes intelligent life might exist beyond Earth." "'Are you really so arrogant as to believe we are alone in this universe?' Cruise told Blid. 'Millions of stars, and we're supposed to be the only living creatures? No, there are many things out there. We just don't know." "Cruise's publicist and sister, Lee Anne DeVette, confirmed that he made the remarks but said that the belief has nothing to do with the Church of Scientology, which they both follow." "Some critics of the organization, which was founded by sci-fi writer L. Ron Hubbard, say the faith is based upon a story about alien visitors to Earth." (Editor's Note: The L. in Hubbard's name stands for Lafayette.) "DeVette says that's untrue. 'I'm happy to tell you (Cruise's remark) has absolutely nothing to do with Scientology,' she says. Cruise's comments just ask 'Who are we to think we're the only people, the only life forms that exist anywhere? He clearly said he has never seen aliens.'" "Steven Spielberg, who directed War of the Worlds, also said he believes alien life exists somewhere, though if contact were ever made between the worlds, he believes the visitors would be friendly--unlike the aliens in this movie." (See USA Today for June 30, 2005, "Cruise to Earth: We're not alone," page 2D.) That's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Filer's Files #28 - 2005 From: George A. File <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 08:34:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:50:02 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #28 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #28 =96 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International July 6, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com War of the Worlds This week's files cover: War of the Worlds, and Spacecraft strikes Comet. Also, UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Utah, and Washington. Many sightings were also reported in Australia, Canada, Mexico, and the UK crop circle. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. US Spacecraft strikes Comet Impact is shown on left, while camera the image on right shows Comet just prior to impact. . The space probe of the Deep Impact mission collided with Tempel 1, 7:52 p.m. EDT on July 4, 2005. The comet is a pickle-shaped rock half the size of Manhattan. The space probe chased down the speeding comet 83 million miles away and slammed it into the frozen ball of dirty ice and debris in a mission to learn how the solar system was formed. 'War of the Worlds' On October 30th, 1938, Orson Welles and his Mercury Theater on the Air radio broadcast to much of the United States causing mass hysteria, that was most pronounced on the East Coast. There is a monument to the broadcast in the Grover's Mill, New Jersey Park honoring the place where the aliens landed during the broadcast. The public heard essentially a news program claiming that Martians had invaded and were destroying anything in their path. People ran and got into their cars in large numbers attempting to escape the alien weapons. The uproar caused decades of research into the dynamics of mass hysteria. Many experts also claim that the mass hysteria caused by the possible threat is primary reason the government does not announce UFOs are in our skies. The broadcast was based on the 1898 novel "WAR OF THE WORLDS" H. G. Wells. The book begins telling the reader that aliens have been watching Earth for years preparing for the invasion. A popular movie version shown here was produced in 1953 with Gene Barry. There are special effects that are much improved over the 1953 movie version. Now, Steven Spielberg has spectacular effects and Tom Cruise who both claim to believers in aliens to tell the story of deadly invaders out to destroy Earth. The Director utilizes special effects and inspired acting to portray the human response to an alien invasion. The hero of the film is Tom Cruise, a divorced father his teenage son Justin Chatwin and 10-year-old daughter Dakota Fanning. The aliens descend upon the earth amidst a huge lightning storm and giant metal machines emerge from the ground, after eons in hiding, and start decimating everything and everyone is sight. The special effects are spectacular, especially in scenes where the gigantic machines are destroying entire cities with their blue death rays. I have discussed the film with many non- believers in the UFO phenomenon who seem to agree that what is shown in the film is possible and that the aliens may all ready be here preparing for the time when they will take over our Earth. "War of the Worlds" is a totally entertaining film that plays on the basic human fear of being attacked without warning. Sometimes there is truth in a work of fiction that makes people start to think. Many Theologians say aliens possible The Book of Mormon explains that aliens do exist and most other ancient religious books indicate that the angles and giants of old were extra terrestrials. Many Christian, Jewish and Muslim leaders say the revelation of extraterrestrial beings would not contradict their theological beliefs. The theological significance of extraterrestrial life has been debated for centuries. Some argue that God could have created worlds better than ours; while many still maintain that Earth is the center of God's universe. Most admit he may have planted life on other worlds. Alabama huge hovering light FAYETTE -- My name is David. =93Two weeks ago about June 14, 2005, at around 8:30 PM, I was sitting in my back yard facing my house when I saw something bright out of the corner of my eye.=94 I turned around and just above the trees across the field was a huge hovering light. It had different color lights that seem to rotate at the bottom of the object. I ran in and got my dad and he saw it as well. It hovered for about five minutes and accelerated in what seemed like an instant up into the western sky. Fox 10 News - WALA =96 reports that UFO experts have taken six reports in the last four months alone in Southern Alabama and Mississippi. That's just part of fifty years worth of sightings along the Gulf Coast. Brian Vike of the HBCC UFO Research center says he hears hundreds of stories just like hers each year, and believes some of them are true. He said, "When you get the cases when you can't come up with a reasonable explanation. We will really be selfish and arrogant to think we are the only life in this vastness that we live in." Thanks to Fox 10 News - WALA - Mobile, Pensacola http://www.fox10tv.com/Default.aspx California UFOs picked up on video SONORA -- Mark A. Olson, D. M. writes,=94We had some awesome sightings on July 1, 2005, at 9:03 PM - There were four witnesses to this glowing object as it appeared directly overhead and headed to the Northeast. This object was observed until it was hidden behind the tree line about 100 yards from our position. Our group decided to make an expedition to just outside of the town of Twain Harte, about 7 miles from Sonora. As we were facing west, overlooking Lyons Bald Mountain, another glowing object was sighted at 10:36 PM. This object was glowing brightly as it headed to the North and disappeared behind the trees. At 10:51 PM, a red glowing object was seen over Lyons Bald Mountain to our West. This object traveled to the North and disappeared behind the trees as well. At 10:59 PM - Nine minutes after the first red object appeared, a second object was sighted over Lyons Bald Mountain heading to the North. Four witnesses watched as this object seemed to rotate and change colors as it traveled. At 11:06 PM - Another object appeared over the trees to our West-Southwest. This object appeared at first to have two lights, then three. As the object traveled toward us and to our right, the lights glowed very brightly for a few seconds, then dimmed and disappeared. This was the sixth object of eight recorded sightings. On July 2, 2005, at 8:00 PM - An object appeared to the Southwest, just before sunset. The object changed colors from blue to red to white as it moved slowly westward above the trees, before dimming out entirely. There were two witnesses to this object. Thanks to Mark A. Olson, D. M. ---- The video clips are posted at: http://www.sonorasightings.com/112886.html Florida teardrop sighted in Panhandle OKALOOSA ISLAND, -- Witnesses saw what appeared to look like a "teardrop" at 12:50 PM, on June 19, 2005.One reported that a loud boom was heard, like an explosion while walking on a beach. Fifteen minutes later, while driving west, they saw the teardrop object leaving a trail of smoke or fire in red that might have been caused by the sunset. One witness called home and asked a family member to go outside and two other witnesses saw streaks heading west in the sky. They estimate their altitude was 15-20 thousand feet. One witness reported the original object was not moving, but when they reached their home, the object look like it dived and disappeared or had just shrunk. Two family members saw the other two streaks and one disappeared and another one appeared south of it. That one disappeared and another streak appeared going east, it looked like a fast moving plane, but no sound or sonic boom was heard. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Georgia two sightings Mark Ausmus the MUFON Georgia State Director reports, =93We have received two new UFO sightings in the Atlanta area in June and the witnesses for each case have been interviewed and are highly credible. ATLANTA -- A former police officer and currently a special investigator reports, "While driving on Dresden Drive, I witnessed a dark gray disc, =91skipping=92 through a small area of sky at a fairly low altitude on June 6, 2005, at 13:41 hours.=94 It was the same height as the low-lying clouds and I watched for two or three minutes from a side and top angle. I observed the object well enough to rule out the possibility of it being an aircraft - including a blimp or helicopter, a balloon or a bird. It was simply a disc staying airborne in a very unusual way. It was hard to guess at its size that could have been as small as a trash can lid or as large as a car. I have not reported this to any official government agency." Photo of area where object was seen - with disc drawn into picture. NORCROSS -- The witness reports, "I was watching the sky, on June 12, 2005, and huge storm clouds were moving due north from Hurricane Arlene's remains at 6:40 PM. This object seemed to move of its own accord and not float. It was about 1,000 feet high - black and metallic as it reflected the sun and was shaped like a huge chair! It moved fast! A jetliner on approach to Hartsfield Airport (they always fly over my house) flew over it so I estimate that the object was closer to me than the plane. The crew MUST have seen it! The object moved in a large curve from due east to northeast and did not appear to rotate or wobble. At first I thought that it was a balloon of some sort but it was shaped like a HUGE CHAIR! So strange! Thanks to Mark C Ausmus MUFON Georgia Illinois five spheres around Chicago DOWNERS GROVE -- I was in the Drive Thru for a late night snack after a movie on June 17, 2005, at 12:20 AM, and I noticed through the tree line ahead of me there were some bright green and glowing white lights. They looked like fireworks shooting up but the bright green lights were just sitting there and rocking side to side very subtly a couple hundred to 1000 yards in front of me and 100 feet up. Also, I noticed a police officer pull into the parking lot ahead and another one go down the road ahead right under where the object would have been. The second I received my food, the lights disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director CHICAGO -- On June 18, 2005, at 6:15 PM, my neighbor caught two bright white circular objects flying over the city with his new digital video camera. He sees these things all the time and I thought he was nuts, because he thinks the government is keeping this a secret, but I personally witnessed what he finally captured on video. Thanks to www.ufocenter.com ORLAND PARK -- The witness reports , =93On June 18, 2005, at 9 PM, I was standing at a park near 139th and Wolf Road looking west when I observed five spheres rising almost like a bundle of balloons let go, three were white, and two shiny silver.=94 As they rose, the three white objects stayed aligned with each other in a diagonal line, one silver to the left and one silver to the right of the three white objects. While the two silver objects kept a little distance from the group, the three white objects would go from a straight line to forming a triangle. They seemed to be drifting north and up and at one point I saw what looked like a bright orange airplane flying very close, just above or through the objects. It was about a millimeter long at arm=92s length and the objects were like pinpoints. I thought it was weird that I could see the orange plane by the objects but couldn't really see the color of other planes that were much closer. Thanks to www.ufocenter.com Minnesota cigar/triangular shape GRANITE FALLS =96 The observer saw a long triangle/cigar shaped object that was sometimes yellow, pink and white, as it flew across entire skyline in 45 seconds on June 18, 2005, at 9:05 PM. While it changed colors a second object with a circular white light darted towards it, and then left it in the last seconds of my sighting. It didn't disappear, but just went out of viewing because of the trees and a hill on a clear day. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com New York rectangular-shaped object ASTORIA --At 5:35 PM, on June 1, 2005, the witness saw a rectangular-shaped grayish black object making a lazy circle over Queens at about 1000 feet. The object was thin when viewed head-on. It appeared at least 500 feet, but less than 1000 feet long, and 100-200 feet wide. The object flew over Astoria Boulevard, then made a wide circle and flew over the East River to the island of Manhattan, turning to fly south down its spine on Manhattan's west side. The duration of the sighting was 5 minutes. It was similar to a banner being towed. However, at no time did I see an airplane towing it, and there was no writing or advertisement on the grayish black object. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com SACANDAGA LAKE -- At 10:55 PM, on June 18, 2005, a mother and daughter were having a cigarette on the front porch when they saw two star like objects moving very fast in a southeasterly direction. The objects flew side by side but one started to slow down and lag behind. Their brilliance also seemed to become brighter and dimmer while they were moving. Then they COMPLETELY STOPPED dead in their tracks and began to hover, maintaining consistent distance between them. Then a 3rd object appeared and the three together formed a perfect triangle! These star like objects then hovered together for almost 20 minutes. We ran into the house grabbed my Dad out of bed who came out and saw the triangle in the sky. After about 15 minutes the clouds began to obstruct our view. Then one of the objects started to move in a westerly direction slowly then changed coarse in a perfect half circle 180 degree turn, then stopped again, hovered and began to move in a straight line directly over our house stopped again and is still hovering there until the cloud cover obstructed our view. www.ufocenter.com BROOKLYN =96 The observer a 4 year military veteran was on his roof on June 17, 2005 at 10:28 PM, observing the sky with his new Meade CaptureView 8 x 42 Digital Camera Binocular. When he noticed what appeared to be a star moving in the sky east to west trajectory. I noticed that the object appeared to be speeding up then slightly slowing down. Through the Binoculars the object appeared to have a yellowish tint to it. The object was disappearing and appearing again then was gone. I captured about 1 second of what I believed to be the object on video. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com I Massachusetts flight spots teardrop UFO BOSTON =96 The passenger and his daughter were flying in a AA 757 to Europe on June 19, 2005. The witness states, =93Twenty minutes after takeoff a horseshoe crab shaped silver object was quickly overtaken by our aircraft at 8:14 PM.=94 The crab shaped UFO was flying at our same altitude and not recognized as an aircraft. We estimated the object was at a 1/4 mile distance from our AA 757, but it was definitely not a plane and seemed to be hanging almost vertically north of us. On landing at Manchester, England, they asked the Pilot and Co- Pilot about the UFO. They did not see it or pick anything up on radar. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Missouri sphere seen for ten minutes ST. LOUIS =96 A lit up slow moving sphere shaped object was seen moving very= slowly southeast over the city on June 17, 2005, at 7:08 PM. The family was= outside cooking when the husband pointed out a round silver metallic object= that turned bright yellow. Not sure if it was lit up or was just reflecting= the sunlight. It traveled very slowly from Northwest to Southeast. It went= behind a cloud but you could still see the yellow shining through. It then= came out of the clouds and continued in the same direction that it had been= moving still very slowly. Ten minutes later the object still slowly moving= to the southeast. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director New Jersey six lights seen for ten minutes WESTFIELD =96 On June 19, 2005, about 7 PM, six lights moved across the sky that could be seen with binoculars. It looked like an ameba shaped light with red and yellow lights around the outside. The lights moved across the sky and a fairly slow rate. I thought it was odd to see a star this early, but was amazed when I saw three more lights. Two hung together and one was underneath the other, then moved up to the other at a very fast rate of speed and remained close to the other light. They moved together. The last light stayed behind. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com New Mexico daylight flashing object ALBUQUERQUE -- A brightly flashing object was seen in broad daylight at 12:50 PM, on June 19, 2005. It rose suddenly, hovered, then dived and sped away after five minutes. I stopped and watched it; the flashing continued in an irregular, fluttery fashion, and it continued its southerly motion against the wind. After perhaps two minutes of observation, the object was due south of me; it suddenly rose very rapidly to a position probably 70 degrees above the horizon and stood motionless. It continued to flash and I could see a black phase alternating between the bright ones. There was no discernable shape and the size was just sufficient to give me the impression of angularity. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com North Carolina UFO operations continue DAVIDSON COUNTY -- This photograph shows an unknown aerial object over a UFO locality that is frequently monitored by a field team of independent UFO investigators. In most cases, the UFOs are invisible to the human eye but detected by digital cameras being aimed in various random directions by members of the team and using a flash to somehow "light up" the otherwise invisible objects for a photograph. This object was photographed in the late evening of June 18, 2005. On June 24th, about 10:20 PM, EDT, three visible objects appearing exactly as manmade satellites were spotted traveling from NW to SE in a strange triangle formation high in the sky. Our team has a backlog of many hundreds of photographs and is analyzing them carefully as time allows. A CD of these sightings are available for a donation to Filer=92s Files. Thanks to Alan Caviness Ohio new images FOSTORIA =96 On July 5, 2005, George Ritter captured this dark object on his RCA VHS video camera at 4:04 PM. George regularly takes video of UFOs above the farm next door. George writes, "The metal grain bin is 265 yards from where I usually shoot from and is measured by laser range finder." The object appears to be about 300 yards away and an estimated 30 feet across. Oklahoma disk LAKE HALL -- Blake reports to Skywatch International that, =93Last night on July 1, 2005, I was fishing when a line of thunderstorms began to move into the area. My back was to the lake when suddenly there was this bright flash of lightening but no thunder, there was still a bit of a glow left in the sky. So I turned around and looked and there was this saucer shaped thing hovering over the lake! It didn't make a sound, but seemed to be greenish yellow in color and had a small protrusion attached to the bottom. I was overcome with fear and jumped into my truck and got the heck out of there! I've been in combat but I've never felt fear like that before! Today after I calmed down a bit I called a friend of mine who has been who suggested I call Jim Hickman that studies UFOs. Thanks to Blake and Jim Hickman and Skywatch International Oregon thirty spheres in thunderstorm PORTLAND =96 Thirty+ spheres were observed flying in formation during a thunderstorm due to large multiple lighting flashes at 9:46 PM, on June 19, 2005. The witness reports multiple lighting flashes illuminated a large formation of bright white spheres traveling together in an oval pattern. They were visible for about 1 1/2 minutes and were quite impressive. My apartment lights flickered briefly as we watched these large ships. This was not ball lighting. On the next large lighting flash in the same area of the sky, the sky was clear. I was wondering if the electrical signature of this formation was recognized or tracked by the airport or any other facility in this area? ((NUFORC Note: Peter Davenport spoke with this witness via telephone, and he seemed quite credible to us. PD)) www.ufocenter.com DAMASCUS =96 The observer reports, =93There was a group of us sitting on the front porch during a thunder/lightening storm at 6 PM, on June 19, 2005, when suddenly there was a dramatic wind shift and I looked for a funnel cloud.=94 Our house is elevated above a valley and from the lowest tree line we saw a very bright, metallic shining sphere climb quickly to high altitudes. It reached jet altitude in such a quick time. Three of us saw the object in and out of the clouds moving swiftly. It was far away; in no time then gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Tennessee light WARTBURG =96 A glowing object moved through the sky at a high speed then stopped in mid air, vanished at 4:24 AM, on June 19, 2005. It was kind of like any other star in the sky once it had stopped except it was allot brighter and glowing green, blue, and then white. After pausing in the air for about five seconds or so it took off making an "L" shape in the sky and as it moved it left a trail then it stopped again. It was there then gone again before I realized it. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Utah UFO sighting over Salt Lake City SALT LAKE CITY =96 The witness saw an unusual grouping of stars on June 18, 2005, at 8 PM. There were red weather balloons sort of hanging in the sky. I called out to a pair of friends and had them look as the lights began to move around one red sphere moving to the south and the other to the north. I kept my focus on the one heading north until it stopped moving and then another star like light came into view. The red sphere grew smaller and smaller and then both vanished to the naked eye. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Virginia flying triangle POTOMAC FALLS =96 The witness states, =93I saw three white lights at high altitude that moved very slowly directly over my head at 11:22 PM, on June 20, 2005. It came out of the northwest moving toward to southeast, toward the moon. I could not see anything within the lights, but the light in front was slightly brighter than the two trailing lights. The lights formed a large triangle and almost came to a complete stop over my house. Then it moved toward the moon and just disappeared. I also saw six other lights at the same altitude moving in different direction just prior to and after the triangle passed. None of the lights made any sounds and all moved very slowly. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Washington erratic airborne object WASHOUGA -- My wife and I were watching an advancing lightning storm at our Gorge property viewing the southeastern side of the Columbia River at 8:33 PM, on June 19, 2005. We saw an object move in random directions, zig-zagging, and descending lower. We thought it might be a plane but the object moved erratically as if blown about, and then moved south and began descending far faster than any plane could normally. The wife felt it was somewhat triangular in shape, and the husband saw a bright light with an irregular shape around 3 sides of the light. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Wisconsin objects seen for 20 minutes GALESVILLE =96 The observer reports seeing dark and circular objects at 9 PM, on June 20, 2005. They would disappear and then reappear in a different location. One object seemed to be in the shape of a dome on top. I saw one, then two and three but there were usually two. The odd thing is that as I was taking pictures of these dark objects, I began to notice the clouds changing away toward the right of them. I took three pictures of the changing formation. I was using a digital camera and when I took the picture of the large configuration, my camera went totally black except for the normal information readout. I have never had this happen before. I tried repeatedly to take a picture and it just wouldn't work. Even the viewfinder was black. I had to turn it off and on again. By that time the large configuration was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Australia sightings Ross writes, I=92m a farrier/blacksmith in north Queensland, Australia, near Atherton Tablelands that is a well known place in history for UFOs. It=92s just up the road from "Tully" a place you will find that was one of the first ever to documented crop circles. Almost every day for the last five years I=92ve witnessed UFOs flying over our area. I have around 8000 still pictures, and have recently taken old style infrared shots orbs/earthlights as close as 200 meters away. We have orbs/earthlights, starjets that morph that match scarily with the ones seen to this date at Mt St Helens in Washington. You can see Ross's images at http://www.asoulartphenomena.com Canada images of white UFOs SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO =96 Paul Shishis writes, =93Hi George, sorry for the delay of this sighting, as it has been busy with my two boys. I would like to report a sighting on June 20, 2005, at 12:25 PM, on my lunch break when I observed a round "very" slow moving brilliant white colored object, with a slight light field around it.=94 Standing, facing northwest from my position, at a distance of 2-3 miles away, I caught this object against the blue hazy sky flying between 2000 to 3000 feet. This object was slowly making its way on a straight path eastwards, moving closer to my position. I got my best witness, my digital camera and snapped ten high resolution pictures of this object. I even waited 5-8 minutes for this object to be 90 degrees north of my position about a mile away. After finishing my card on the camera, time for a witness. A courier was sitting in his van, so I approached him. I asked, "Do you want to see a UFO"? His reply was, "Why do you see one=94. I than pointed, back to the object and looked, it was gone. When I downloaded the images after work there was not one picture found with this brilliant white colored object. I'm shaking my head more about the pictures, than the actual sighting itself. Did the eye catch something technology could not? P. S. I expect a surge this July/Aug.05. everywhere, so be ready to roll up your sleeves .Goodnight. Paul Paul writes he was successful in capturing UFOs this time. =93You may find this picture interesting. The cluster of white flying seeds I can go with. Yet, a distant round "silver" object appears at the top right. When you zoom about twice at this object, you will see an object, which appears silver and round. This image was taken on June 26, 2005.=94 Thanks to Paul Chile UFO landing video under analysis ULTIMA ESPERANZA,12 TH REGION -- Terra.cl reports that incredible images depict the landing of an unidentified flying object in southern Chile. This sequence of clips form part of an exclusive video taken in one of the world's southernmost locations and which show the vast amount of UFO manifestations in that territory, which is considered a UFO 'hotspot". This video was taken on March 17, 2004, and is under analysis by AION's director, Rodrigo Fuenzalida. Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, IHU. Mexico UFO images XALAPA -- I'm sending you these jpg's of the UFO fleet sighting over Xalapa this Friday June 24 as reported this morning by local newscast INFO 7, a TV Azteca affiliate here in Monterrey as they are following the story for several days. These objects apparently remained still in the sky for well over 30 minutes, which balloons would not do. COLONIA ACUEDUCTO DE GUADALUPE -- Photograph taken on July 2, 2005 north of Mexico City, at 5:45 PM, show a rocket like UFO.. According to the explanation offered by Mexican physicist and researcher Mario Torres Luj=E1n, former director of CONTACTO OVNI Magazine, the phenomenon of the so-called "invisible UFOs" is based on low-frequency sounds and speed. The scientist explains: :"Strange structures are moving through the sky at high speeds, becoming imperceptible to us. This oscillation may cause an infra sound imperceptible to the human ear, but somehow perceptible by our brains' neurons, and that is the reason why witnesses press their cameras' shutters at a given place and manage to capture images that the unaided eye could not see." "This low-frequency sound is picked up by animals and for this reason we see alterations among them during sightings. I definitely do not believe in the existence of chance UFOs...rather, there is more of a causality involved." Profra. Ana Luisa Cid www.analuisacid.com.mx UK/ENGLAND cigar seen ten minutes COVENTRY =96 On June 17, 2005, at 2:10 AM, train engineer and another railway worker witnessed a multicolored cigar shape object low in the sky. The engineer at Coventry Station was Driving locomotive 66537 (4006) About half a mile before Cov station I noticed at about a 35 degree angle from eyesight a large green light above Coventry City Centre. It appeared to be stationary and was a steady light. Getting closer to the station the light turned to a steady red or slightly orange glow. I couldn't remain in permanent focus with the object because I was running on to a red signal. I observed that the light had a tube like shape and a red light at the rear. I would guess that it was only about a couple of hundred feet in the sky and was moving northeast over Coventry. There was no noise I could hear but then again I was in a 66 locomotive. Also there was a rail grinding machine on the down slow platform and the driver of that was on the platform watching the UFO. Maybe it was a barrage balloon or Zeppelin type craft? But why www.ufocenter.com Hundred Acres of squares reported 3 July. ALTON PRIORS, WILTSHIRE --The first impression of this formation was that of an eight-pointed star. The G8 conference to be held in Scotland was mentioned by some of the people visiting the formation as a possible message. Also the number eight brings sacred medieval architecture into play with all the mystery that entails. Thanks to: http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2005/hundredacres/hundredacres2005a.html= Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. I have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to "ttps://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. Exempt from Disclosure: The Disturbing Case About the UFO Coverup by Robert M. Collins and Richard C. Doty: Richard Helms was briefed into the subject of UFOs in the early days. He knew about Roswell and knew the involvement of the CIA from around 1950 to the 1970s. Helms knew the NSA involvement with programs to capture ET signals.=97Rick Doty http://www.ufoconspiracy.com/reports/efd_book.htm http://www.ufoconspiracy.com/reports/efd_book.htm Subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's File is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION. Question: If our troops were pulled out of Iraq, where would the terrorists go to strike US and its allies? The terrorists would most likely conduct operations in the US and allied countries.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Braxton County Monster Festival From: Jess Given <info.nul> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:32:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:53:18 -0400 Subject: Braxton County Monster Festival Braxton County Convention & Visitors Bureau Just wanted to let everyone know about the first annual Braxton County Monster Festival to be held Sept. 10, 2005 at Flatwoods Factory Stores, Flatwoods, WV (Just off Exit 67 of Interstate 79). This festival will commemorate the historic sighting of the infamous green monster, which appeared in Flatwoods, WV on Sept. 12, 1952. For more info on the festival as it becomes available, email info.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Secrecy News -- 07/06/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:54:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:55:37 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/06/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 62 July 6, 2005 ** HOMELAND SECURITY SECRECY ENVELOPES LOCAL DIGITAL DATA ** NY TIMES ON GROWING SECRECY ** CORRECTING THE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS HOMELAND SECURITY SECRECY ENVELOPES LOCAL DIGITAL DATA Challenged by a local freedom of information request, a New Jersey utility asked the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to declare that certain digital records sought by a member of the public were protected from public disclosure. After a New Jersey resident requested a digital copy of topographic mapping data from the Brick Township Municipal Utilities Authority (BTMUA), utility officials turned to DHS and asked that the requested information be designated as "protected critical infrastructure information (PCII)," so that they would be relieved of any obligation to disclose the data. Last month, DHS approved the designation. In reply to a 2003 request from R. Bradley Tombs for a database of topographic mapping information, BTMUA indicated that he could purchase individual topographic maps in hard copy for five dollars each, but that the softcopy database would not be released. Mr. Tombs filed a complaint with the state's Government Records Council, and the utility responded last year by submitting the requested database to DHS for protection. The database "contains all of the information pertaining to the potable water treatment and distribution system, and the sanitary sewer collection system," BTMUA wrote in its submission to DHS. "The totality of the ... database, in a digital format, is information that is not customarily in the public domain." Mr. Tombs disputed that point, noting that he had personally obtained similar topographic base map information from other public sources. The utility answered that "Although portions of the information contained in the database may be available from various sources and may therefore be in the public domain, the totality of the information ... is not in the public domain." DHS accepted the utility's argument. In a June 3, 2005 letter, DHS PCII program manager Laura L.S. Kimberly wrote that "your submission has been validated as PCII." As a consequence, says Mr. Tombs, common "topographic mapping information containing roads, streams, lakes, forests, buildings and structures, topographic contours, as well as virtually any type of information that can be shown on a map" is now "protected" under the CII umbrella. A copy of Ms. Kimberly's June 2005 letter, the utility's December 2004 letter of transmittal to DHS, and a November 2004 letter to the parties from an administrative law judge may be found here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dhs-brick.pdf Additional background documents, including requester Tombs' rebuttal to DHS, and submissions to the administrative law judge, are available here (1.2 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dhs-brick2.pdf The notion that some public information which is readily available in hard copy should not be disclosed in digital form was endorsed in a rule issued last week by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which affirmed what it called the "Non- Internet Public (NIP) Designation." "Anyone wishing to obtain NIP may get it upon request from the Public Reference Room or from Commission staff; however it is not made available to the public through the Commission's Internet site," the rule stated. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/ferc-ceii.pdf NY TIMES ON GROWING SECRECY The New York Times reported this week that government secrecy "has reached a historic high," and that "across the political spectrum there is concern that the hoarding of information could backfire." Though the facts of the matter may be familiar to attentive readers, the Times account is leavened by several remarkable quotes from government officials. See "Increase in the Number of Documents Classified by the Government" by Scott Shane, July 3: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/03/politics/03secrecy.html CORRECTING THE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE In a discussion of the bullets that are used in fifty caliber rifles, a recent Congressional Research Service report included this account: "A single grain is equivalent to 0.0648 gram. As one pound is equivalent to 28.350 grams, a 665 grain bullet would weigh about 1.52 pounds." See "Long-Range Fifty Caliber Rifles: Should They Be More Strictly Regulated?," May 20, 2005, page 2, footnote 5: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22151.pdf But wait! One pound is equivalent to 454 grams, not 28 grams (which equals one ounce). "Maybe the Congress really does need an OTA," quipped Allen Thomson, who was the first of several Secrecy News readers to spot the CRS error. (OTA, the Office of Technology Assessment, was the scientific advisory body terminated by Congress in 1995.) No one, of course, is above error. But one of the unacknowledged adverse consequences of the CRS policy of restricting distribution of its reports is that such errors may be harder to detect than they would be if anyone, anywhere were free to review the reports. In this case, a revised copy of the CRS report, without the offending footnote, was issued on May 25. SELECTED CRS REPORTS Recent publications of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following: A CRS memorandum that was prepared for Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) and reported in the news today tabulates the number of chemical plants in each state possessing significant amounts of various toxic or flammable substances. See "RMP Facilities in the United States as of May 2005" by Dana A. Shea, June 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/rmp062705.pdf "Nuclear Weapons: Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty," updated June 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB92099.pdf "Nuclear Arms Control: The U.S.-Russian Agenda, updated June 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB98030.pdf "Nuclear Nonproliferation Issues," updated June 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB10091.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank email message to secrecy_news-remove.nul OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 6 Deep Impact Mission Goals From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:59:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:59:02 -0400 Subject: Deep Impact Mission Goals The Deep Impact mission is not without its psychological baggage though. I saw in the news yesterday an editorial by my friend David Grinspoon "Collision with a Comet" http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/04/opinion/edcomet.php that defended the idea of hitting the comet. His points are good with the exception of one [he talked as if it were a long-period comet, of which there are many, but that this is a short-period comet, of which there are only about 100], but I think that David doesn't spend enough time outside of the US to understand how strongly that many people perceive the Deep Impact mission as a sign of aggression, given the perception in the world that the US is a military country. It 'looks' like the Deep Impact space mission is something "military-related". An Australian journalist at the Deep Impact press conference yesterday asked the mission manager: "You are shooting a comet on America's 4th-of-July holiday, can you say something to that point?" And the JPL manager did not address it. I think he missed an opportunity to make better press and help people understand better about the mission goals. The mission, whatever its psychological baggage, was executed yesterday flawlessly. I'm most interested in the chemistry they find, and I hope that their spectroscopy can answer that point. The comet astronomers I know (and me!) are keen to know if the isotopic deuterium ratio difference between Standard Mean Ocean Water ('SMOW') and that of Halley/Hyakatake/Hale-Bopp, which are long-period comets, is similar to the deuterium ratio difference between SMOW and short period comets, like Tempel 1. Nobody knows yet the deuterium isotopic ratio of short-period comets. Did comets bring significant amounts of water to the Earth or not? How can we know what life outside of the Earth might be like, if we don't even know how Earth got its water? This data is likely to be the best chemistry data on comets until Rosetta arrives at its target comet. So then pretty exciting time for planetary scientists. Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 7 Did You See The UFO? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:20:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:20:42 -0400 Subject: Did You See The UFO? Source: ICBerkshire - UK http://tinyurl.com/77txh Jul 7 2005 Did You See The UFO? By Richard Crowe When Corinne Dainton woke in the middle of the night and saw bright lights seeping through her bedroom window she thought nothing of it. But the next day neighbours revealed they had also spotted the mystery lights - and believe Bracknell was being visited by an alien spacecraft hovering above the nearby Coppid Beech Hotel at John Nike Way. The drama started soon after midnight on Wednesday, June 22. Mrs Dainton, of Fletcher Gardens, Popeswood, said: "I remember seeing bright lights coming through the window. "But one of my neighbours actually saw an oval-shaped object above the hotel. When she phoned the MoD they told her it was probably an airship. "But how can it have been an airship that appeared in the middle of the night then just disappeared into nowhere." This week, Whitehall officials were denying they had launched an inquiry into the Bracknell UFO incident. An MoD spokeswoman said: "The MoD would not investigate these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 8 AUFORN - UFOESA Lectures - Gold Coast & Sydney 2005 From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:45:44 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:23:30 -0400 Subject: AUFORN - UFOESA Lectures - Gold Coast & Sydney 2005 AUFORN - UFOESA Lectures International Guest Speakers Gold Coast & Sydney Gold Coast Lectures to be held at: Venue: Robina Community Center, Room C Location: Robina Town Center Drive Thursday 29th September 2005 Start time 6.30 p.m - Finish 10.30 p.m 5 minute walk from the Robina Railway station. Link: http://www.robina.com.au/subpages/business/dynPanorama.asp Sydney Lectures to be held at: Venue: Dooleys Libcombe Cathlic Club Location: 24 John Street 1st Saturday November 2005 Start time 5.30 p.m - Finish 9.30 p.m 5 minute walk from the Libcombe Railway station. Link: http://www.lidcombecatholic.com.au/home_index.html For members & guests Speakers: Freddy Silva - Author Topic - Crop Circles and Sound. http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-1.html Alfred Lambremont Webre - Author Topic - Exopolitics - Preparing for contact. Link: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-2.html Michael Horn - Musician Topic - Billy Meier case, Light ships Alien Contact. Link: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-3.html Gold Coast & Sydney Entrance Fee: Cost: $20.00 for the evening or $10.00 per individual speaker Pensioner discount $15.00 Contacts: Gold Coast: Contact 07 55487205 or 0427164677 Email: auforn.nul or ufologist.nul Sydney: Contact: 0412-649-428 Email: ufoesa.nul For more information re these Lectures and Public meeting visit link. http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Meetings.html Please pass this information on far and wide. Regards Diane Harrison
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 8 AUFORN Public Meeting Friday August 5th 2005 From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:46:48 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:25:40 -0400 Subject: AUFORN Public Meeting Friday August 5th 2005 AUFORN Public Meeting Friday 5th of August 2005 At Springwood community Center cnr of Cinderella Drive & Vanessa Blvd Springwood Starts promptly 7.30 p.m. till 10.30 p.m. Free tea and coffee light refreshments. Admittance $7.00 Guest Speaker: Paul Clacher Bio Former Telstra Technician to Marketing Manager. Griffith University Director of Microelectronic Engineering, Australian Federal Policeman as a Federal Financial Intelligence Agent. In 2001 Paul joined WorkCover as an Investigator, was UFORQ Investigations Officer for a short time. Amongst many of Paul's qualifications he holds a level 3 from the Colorado Centre for Healing Touch. Paul feels his work with ethereal energy has allowed him to be in touch with other energy sources and this is why he is so able to freely take photographs of Orbs, and on odd occasions has capture photographs of apparitions. How did Paul start: How did it all start? Well, in 2004 my family and I decided to head off on a trip around Queensland and fossick on the way and also do a bit of site seeing as we went. The route took us to many fossicking sites and areas of extreme and historical significance. While on holidays my daughter wanted more than anything, to go to Boulia and try to see some "Min Min" lights. My wife wanted to see Western Queensland and I wanted to do all of that, but I also wanted to look and fossick for stones. While away I took a considerable number of photographs with my newly purchased digital camera. My daughter, who is a bit of a brave individual, suggested to me that we pay a visit to a local Pioneer Cemetery in one of the country towns that we were staying at and take some night photographs. Now, I don't know if she was getting bored or not, but anyway, she managed to talk me into it. What happened next, would be enough to convert the staunchest skeptic. After a counter meal dinner at the local pub, we made our way to the pioneer cemetery and just to add a bit of fun for my daughter, I told her I would call in the ghosts, so I did. With a bit of fun in mind and trying to add a little bit of tension to the event my daughter then took some photographs with the digital camera and I said "can I have a look". My daughter was sort of shocked. I asked "what's up", and she showed me the photo that she had just taken. The shot was filled with what looked like "Orbs" 72 in all, or could they be "Min Min" lights. I must admit I was a little shocked myself. I then took some shots myself, you could say this event stirred my interest in digital photos. During the rest of that holiday and up until the current this date I have taken many photographs with my digital camera and it appears I can hardly take a photograph without photographing Orbs/ Min Min lights. Presentation: Paul will give a Power Point presentation of photos he has taken of Orbs and apparitions and will show us who easy it is to photograph them. Paul will organize a field trip following the lecture to a location of the groups choice, so you to can capture Orbs and maybe some apparitions on your digital camera. If you want to know more about these balls of transparent light, come along to our meeting August 5th and Paul will demonstrate even with the cleanest of camera lens you too can capture these images. For more information about Paul call by his web page @ http://uqconnect.net/~zzpclach/index.htm Article: Big Cats, by Paul Clacher http://www.uq.net.au/~zzpclach/bigcatwitnesses.htm Strange-Nation.com On the Trail of the Big Cat, by Paul Clacher http://www.strangenation.com.au/Articles/paulclacher.htm AUFORN Meetings at http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Meetings.html Contact Diane Harrison National Director AUFORN or Robert Frola
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 8 Re: Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:48:24 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:31:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' >Source: Frank Warren's Blog >http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ >July 01, 2005 >Is Timing Everything As Related to the Roswell Incident? >By >Dennis Balthaser >7-1-05 >www.truthseekeratroswell.com <snip> >I am well familiar with the need for confidentiality when it >comes to this research. I learned many years ago from Stanton >Friedman that there are situations where the only way to obtain >information, is to guarantee the persons confidentiality. Such >was the case for me, several years ago when researcher Wendy >Connors and I interviewed a key Roswell witness for three and a >half hours on video tape, and have since copyrighted the >information for posterity. We will eventually go public with the >information, at a time that is appropriate for Ms. Connors and >I, and do not plan on using unnamed witnesses or vague >information. What we will present is what was recorded on >videotape. Listers, As I recall, that particular witness was Walter Haut. I also seem to recall that this created a small firestorm at the time because Walter hadn't shared "all" the information he knew with the various Roswell researchers. I also seem to recall that he actually saw the bodies and some other morsels or so I understood. Apparently the agreement was that the video and or transcript could not be released until after his death, in the mean time nobody is able to comment on this one way or the other because of said agreement. Bottom line, if that was the agreement, then fine with me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 9 Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 Subject: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 Source: eMediaWire http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm July 9, 2005 Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at Convocation Hall University of Toronto MUFON Central Canada and ZlandCommunications will sponsor Canada�s first major UFO symposium; Exopolitics Toronto. Web site - http://www.exopoliticstoronto.com/index.html The symposium's purpose is to engage mainstream media, academics and the public to prove beyond all doubt that world governments not only know about UFOs but have sequestered this information, related technologies and radically new energy sources for over 50 years. The symposium will engage media to use all of its resources to publicly call for complete government disclosure concerning the reality of UFOs and the information, now in the possession of government agencies, about an Extraterrestrial presence on Earth. The truth about UFOs as well as the innovative and visionary planetary directions needed to understand the meaning behind this phenomenon will be made available to mainstream media for the first time in Canadian history. (PRWEB) July 11, 2005 -- MUFON Central Canada and ZlandCommunications will sponsor Canada�s first major UFO symposium calling for complete government disclosure concerning the reality of UFOs and the Extraterrestrial presence on Earth. Journalists, academics, scientist and the general public will be presented with four of the world's most prominent speakers on UFO disclosure. Speakers: -Steven G. Bassett - Keynote Speaker - from Washington USA- UFO Lobbyist and candidate for the US Congress. -Canada�s Stanton T. Friedman Nuclear Physicist -Richard Dolan - USA - author of UFOs and the National Security State -Paola Harris - Italy -author of Connecting the Dots: Making Sense of the UFO Phenomenon Four major issues will be addressed: 1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated civilizations, 2. Secret and radically new technologies related to the energy and propulsion systems used by extraterrestrial has been sequestered by undisclosed American government agencies. These new energy sources will ultimately eliminate the need for fossil fuels. The public will demand its use soon after disclosure is achieved. 3. The tracking and registering of UFOs is undertaken on a regular basis; all with the full knowledge of major western government military, NORAD and security agencies, 4. The extraordinary and unparalleled geo-political implications this contact will have for the planet, its environment, religious and socio-ecomomic institutions. NOTE: In the next Press alert a major announcement will made about a prominent Canadian political dignitary - who will deliver an address at the symposium on matters relating to the Canadian government�s involvement with UFOs. Members of the Press are strongly encouraged not to forgo this event and are cordially invited to attend the symposium as well as up-coming briefing sessions with symposium presenters. The Keynote Speaker Steven G. Bassett, Washington Lobbyist and candidate for the US Congress will be available for pre- conference interviews this summer on a first come first serve basis by contacting ZlandCommunications. Interviews with other speakers can also be arranged in advance. The major theme and mission of the symposium is the quest for open dialogue about the UFO phenomenon and to fully engage the media, academics, scientists, government and the general public about existence of off-world civilizations as evidenced by the unrelenting numbers of unidentified aerial phenomenon reports world-wide. The recent disclosure by the Brazilian government and military that UFOs have been tracked and registered for over 50 years is part of the growing disclosure movement underway through the world. Each speaker will present unequivocal evidence of the existence of and contact with Extraterrestrial civilizations. Each speaker will document that unidentified aerial phenomenon (UFOs), under intelligent control, are recorded and tracked daily by military and civilian pilots, NORAD and the general public throughout the world. It will be shown this phenomenon indeed represents a geo- political reformation; a form of contact by off-world civilizations as yet unacknowledged or examined by media or government. To order tickets, please remit a cheque or money order for $40 per ticket made payable to "MUFON Central Canada", and send to: MUFON Central Canada P.O. Box 1500-132
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 10 'The Amazing Godwin' in FATE Magazine From: Goerman Robert <robert_a_goerman.nul> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:41:10 -0400 Subject: 'The Amazing Godwin' in FATE Magazine Review: 'The Amazing Godwin' in FATE Magazine There are people who share our planet, but not this world. They call themselves "ologists." UFOlogists. Cryptozoologists. Parapsychologists. Demonologists. You get the idea. These "ologists" speak matter-of-factly about things that may not be matters of fact. David F. Godwin is the Managing Editor of FATE magazine and since the February 2005 issue, "The Amazing Godwin" page 128 editorials reflect his belief that "thousands of people are seeing something, in many cases experiencing things, that have no mundane explanation currently understood or accepted by science." He feels that "it's clear that the percipients are honestly reporting their experiences. Something happened, but what?" In the July 2005 issue, Godwin questions where broadminded folks should draw the line regarding what to accept. He ponders, with tongue-in-cheek, "The Earth cannot be both hollow and flat. Can it?" I always find Godwin refreshing and would like to address this dilemma. Debunkers and true believers each draw their respective lines in ridiculous places and neither viewpoint is convincing or more than likely anywhere near being correct. Only one fact is crystal clear. Thousands of "ologists" have obsessed over these mysteries for decades now. Unexplained phenomena are not fully understood, but they are undeniably real. Two perfect examples of these are mysterious falls of objects or animals from the sky and out of place species (OOPS). Unknown phenomena require discovery, identification, clarification. Not only are they not understood, but they may not even be real. Examples are ghosts, monsters, and aliens. We still haven't the slightest inkling, let alone concrete evidence, about the origins and nature of extraordinary phenomena. Drawing lines seems premature while we are so absolutely clueless. That won't change today. Tomorrow doesn't look good either. Yours in research, Robert A. Goerman Unconventional Investigator of Unconventional Phenomena http://profiles.yahoo.com/robert_a_goerman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 11 UFOs & Argentine Transmission Lines From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:48:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:44:01 -0400 Subject: UFOs & Argentine Transmission Lines INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology July 11, 2005 Argentina: UFOs and Transmission Towers By Raul Oscar Chaves - CiufosLaPampa The person in charge of a farm located in the jurisdiction of Per=FA, Province of La Pampa, found himself witnessing the path of a low-flying luminous object that shifted colors constantly: from red to green and passing through an intermediate orange phase. It should be noted that the farm is crossed by a 132 KV high- voltage power line that links the towns of General Acha and Guatrach=E9. The time was 19:30 hours and Alberto S. (the witness) noticed that intense sparks and electrical arcing was taking place over the high-voltage lines in question. Filled with fear, he decided to return to the farm's residential area, where he discussed the event with other employees. On the next day, he returned to the place where the sighting took place and found that a maintenance crew from the Administracion Provincial de Energia (Provincial Energy Administration - APE) was already on-site. The repairmen were searching for a failure detected by the control station and were trying to ascertain the precise location and cause of the interruption in the power supply. Having located it, they proceeded with the needed repairs. The repairmen found that one of the connecting elements joining two lines had melted and shrunk lengthwise, leaving behind only a small 7 centimeter chunk. These connectors, known as "puentes" (bridges) are metallic and are normally 1 meter long and 25mm thick. While no evidence regarding the cause of the power failure was found at first, they found a circle measuring approximately 5 meters in diameter burned into the grass. They also found that the soil presented a high degree of hardness and compactness. After being told of the farmhand's experience the night before, the technicians concluded that a collision must have occurred between the electromagnetic field of the high-voltage line (132 Kv) and the energy field of the unidentified flying object. The transmission tower in question has an approximate height of 15 meters and features three spacers distanced from each other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 11 Secrecy News -- 07/11/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:59:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:51:35 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/11/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 63 July 11, 2005 ** A GROWING MILITARY ROLE IN DOMESTIC SECURITY ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS ** A CIA HISTORY OF THE BAY OF PIGS ** REGULATING THE DOGS OF WAR A GROWING MILITARY ROLE IN DOMESTIC SECURITY Under pressure of the "war on terrorism," relations between U.S. military and domestic security and law enforcement organizations are becoming more fluid, with the military poised to increase its prominence in domestic security matters. "Our adversaries consider US territory an integral part of a global theater of combat," a Department of Defense report stated last month. "We must therefore have a strategy that applies to the domestic context the key principles that are driving the transformation of US power projection and joint expeditionary warfare." See "Strategy for Homeland Defense and Civil Support," U.S. Department of Defense, June 2005 (1.2 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/homeland.pdf There are legal limits on military involvement in civilian affairs enshrined in the Posse Comitatus Act, which generally prohibits the Army and the Air Force from performing civilian functions without specific authorization. But there are exceptions to those limits, and pending legislation would modify them further. See "Terrorism: Some Legal Restrictions on Military Assistance to Domestic Authorities Following a Terrorist Attack," Congressional Research Service, updated May 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21012.pdf See also "The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters: A Sketch," Congressional Research Service, updated June 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS20590.pdf and a longer study of "The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters: The Use of the Military to Execute Civilian Law," Congressional Research Service, updated June 1, 2000: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/95-964.pdf SELECTED CRS REPORTS Some other recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following. "Presidential Succession: An Overview with Analysis of Legislation Proposed in the 109th Congress," June 29, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32969.pdf "U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF): Background and Issues for Congress," updated June 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf A CIA HISTORY OF THE BAY OF PIGS An internal CIA history of the Bay of Pigs has found its way into the public domain as one of the beneficent effects of the JFK Assassination Records Collection Act. Most internal CIA histories are routinely withheld from disclosure, regardless of their age. But apparently because the Bay of Pigs history touched on the question of assassination policy, it was caught up in the broad sweep of the JFK Act and declassified. The document was located at the National Archives by Prof. David Barrett of Villanova University, who copied the 295 page volume and posted it on his web site. See "The Official History of the Bay of Pigs Operation, volume III: Evolution of CIA's Anti-Castro Policies, 1951-January 1961": http://www14.homepage.villanova.edu/david.barrett/bop.html REGULATING THE DOGS OF WAR The use of dogs in military missions from combat support to narcotics detection is addressed in a new U.S. Army Field Manual. "The highly aggressive dog tactics of the 1960s and 1970s are long gone," the manual states. "Today, [military dog] teams are employed in dynamic ways never before imagined." Military dogs are "used around the world from Afghanistan to Africa and from the Balkans to Iraq." However, "[military dog] handlers will not use their [dogs] to guard prisoners inside prisons or detainee holding facilities and confinement facilities. In addition, [dog] handlers will not use their [dogs] to degrade, torture, injure, or mistreat EPWs [enemy prisoners of war], detained personnel, civilian internees (CIs), or other detainees in US custody." See "Military Working Dogs," U.S. Army Field Manual 3-19.17, July 2005 (135 pages, 5.0 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-17.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 11 BUFORA Updating Vehicle Interference Project From: Michael Hudson <Michaelwingham.nul> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:38:25 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:57:13 -0400 Subject: BUFORA Updating Vehicle Interference Project BUFORA are currently working on updating the Vehicle Interference database previously published in 1979 as a collection of 428 cases where UFOs were reported to interfere with the operation of vehicles, engines, or electrical/magnetic equipment by Falla, Geoffrey, edited by Charles F. Lookwood and Anthony Pace. We would appreciate any information you would have on any cases involving Vehicle Interference full credit will be given to original sources and a copy of the publication will be sent as a thank you to all contributors. Please send any information to: Michael Hudson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 12 The Nerd Who Saw Too Much From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:05:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:05:20 -0400 Subject: The Nerd Who Saw Too Much Source: The Sydney Morning Herald - Australia http://tinyurl.com/9kzmn July 13, 2005 The Nerd Who Saw Too Much A computer geek faces 70 years in jail for hacking into the top levels of US defence. He tells Jon Ronson how, hooked and stoned, he landed himself in such hot water. In 1983, when Gary McKinnon was 17, he went to see the movie WarGames. In the film, a geeky computer whiz-kid hacks into a secret Pentagon network and, inadvertently, almost instigates World War III. Sitting in the cinema, the teenage McKinnon wondered if he, too, could be a hacker. "Really," I say to him now, " WarGames should have put you off hacking for life." "Well," he replies, "I didn't mean it to actually come true." WarGames ends with the Pentagon officials telling the young nerd how impressed they are with his technical acumen. He's probably going to grow up to have a brilliant career at NASA or the Department of Defence. This is an unlikely scenario for McKinnon. He faces 20 charges in the US, including stealing computer files, obtaining secrets that might have been "useful to an enemy", intentionally causing damage to a protected computer, and interfering with maritime navigation equipment in New Jersey. Last month he attended extradition proceedings at Bow Street Magistrates Court in London. He had, the US prosecutors said, perpetrated the "biggest military computer hack of all time". He "caused damage and impaired the integrity of information. The US military district of Washington became inoperable and the cost of repairing the shutdown was $US700,000 [$932,500]." These hacking attacks occurred immediately after September 11, 2001, they said. This is McKinnon's first interview. He called me out of the blue last week, just as I was screaming at my child to stop knocking on people's doors and running away. "Your son sounds like a hacker," he said. Then he invited me to his home in Bounds Green, north London. He is good-looking, funny, slightly camp, nerdy, a chain-smoker - and terrified. "I'm walking down the road and I find I can't control my own legs," he says. "And I'm sitting up all night thinking about jail and about being arse-f---ed. And, remember, according to them I was making Washington inoperable 'immediately after September 11'. "I'm having all these visions of" - McKinnon puts on a redneck prisoner voice, "'What you doing attacking our country, boy? Pick up that soap.' Yeah, it is absolutely f---ing terrifying." The sentence the US Justice Department is seeking - should McKinnon be extradited - is up to 70 years. What McKinnon was hunting for, as he snooped around NASA, and the Pentagon's network, was evidence of a UFO cover-up. McKINNON was born in Glasgow in 1966. His parents separated when he was six and he moved to London with his mother and stepfather, a bit of a UFO buff. "He comes from Falkirk," McKinnon says, "and just outside Falkirk there's a place called Bonnybridge, which is the UFO capital of the world. When he lived there, he had a dream that he was walking around Bonnybridge seeing huge ships. He told me this and it inflamed my curiosity. He was a great science-fiction reader. So, him being my second father, I started reading science-fiction, too, and doing everything he did." McKinnon read Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein - "the golden age of science-fiction". When he was 15 he joined Bufora, the British UFO Research Association, which describes itself as "a nationwide network of [about] 300 people who have a dedicated, non-cultist interest in understanding the wide-ranging extent of the UFO enigma". Then he saw WarGames, and he thought: "Can you really do it? Can you really gain unauthorised access to incredibly interesting places? Surely it can't be that easy." And so, in 1995, he gave it a try. He sat in his girlfriend, Tamsin's, aunt's house in Crouch End, and he began to hack. McKinnon was looking for - and found time and again - network administrators in high levels of the US government and military establishments who hadn't bothered to give themselves passwords. That's how he got in. He did a few trial runs, hacking into Oxford University's network, for example, and he found the whole business "incredibly exciting. And then it got more exciting when I started going to places where I really shouldn't be." "Like where?" I ask. "The US Space Command," he says. And so, for the next seven years, on and off, McKinnon sat in that aunt's house, a joint in the ashtray and a can of Foster's next to the mouse pad, and he snooped. From time to time, some NASA scientist sitting at his desk somewhere would see his cursor move for no apparent reason. On those occasions, McKinnon's connection would be cut. This would never fail to freak out the then-stoned McKinnon. When I ask if he is brilliant, he says no. He's just an ordinary, self-taught techie. And, he says, he was never alone. "Once you're on the network, you can do a command called NetStat - Network Status - and it lists all the connections to that machine. There were hackers from Denmark, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Thailand =85" "All on at once?" I ask. "You could see hackers from all over the world, snooping around, without the spaceniks or the military realising?" "Every night," he says. "What was the most exciting thing you saw?" "I found a list of officers' names," he says, "under the heading 'Non-Terrestrial Officers' =85. It doesn't mean little green men. What I think it means is not Earth-based. I found a list of 'fleet-to-fleet transfers', and a list of ship names. I looked them up. They weren't US Navy ships. What I saw made me believe they have some kind of spaceship, off-planet." "The Americans have a secret spaceship?" I ask. "That's what this trickle of evidence has led me to believe." "What were the ship names?" "I can't remember," he says. "I was smoking a lot of dope at the time. Not good for the intellect." This was November 2000. By now, McKinnon was hooked. He quit his job as a systems administrator for a small business, "which hugely pissed off my girlfriend, Tamsin". "It was the last straw," he says. "She dumped me and started seeing this other bloke because I was such a selfish waste of space. Poor Tamsin. And she was the one paying the phone bill because I didn't have a job. We were still living together. God, have you ever tried living with someone after you've split up? It's bad." So while Tamsin was trying to get on with her new relationship, McKinnon was in the living room of her aunt's house, hacking. He snooped around all the forts - Fort Meade, Fort Benning, and others - reading internal court-martial reports of soldiers getting imprisoned for rape and murder and drug abuse. "You end up lusting after more and more complex security measures," he says. "It was like a game. I loved computer games. I still do. It was like a real game. It was addictive. Hugely addictive." It was never really politically motivated. Yes, he was hacking immediately after September 11, 2001, but only because he wanted to see if there was a conspiracy. "Why did the building fall like a controlled series of explosions?" he asks. "I hate conspiracy theories, so I thought I'd find out for myself." He strenuously denies the Justice Department's charge that he caused the "US military district of Washington" to become "inoperable". Well, once, he admits - but only once - he inadvertently pressed the wrong button and may have deleted some government files. "I thought, 'Ooh, bloody hell.' And that's when I stopped for a while. And then my friend told me about DARPA. And so I started again." DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency, an intriguing collection of brilliant military scientists, funded by the Pentagon. DARPA has been widely credited with inventing, among other things, the internet, the global positioning system, the computer mouse, and - somewhat more boneheadedly - FutureMAP, an online futures market designed to predict assassinations and bombings by encouraging investor speculation in such crimes. The US Senate once described FutureMAP as "an unbelievably stupid idea". DARPA has long been of interest to conspiracy theorists because it is semi-secretive, bizarre and occupies that murky world that lies between science and war. McKinnon was caught in November 2002. He says it was inevitable because he was "getting a bit sloppy". He pauses. "I'd never have envisaged this happening to myself, but I did get a bit megalomaniacal, as well. It got a bit silly. I ended up talking to people I hacked into =85 I'd instant-message them, using WordPad, with a bit of a political diatribe. You know, I'd leave a message on their desktop that read, 'Secret government is blah blah blah."' McKinnon was tracked down because he'd used his email address to download a hacking program called Remotely Anywhere. "God knows why I used my real email address," he says. "I suppose it means I'm not a secretive, sophisticated, checking-myself-every-step- of-the-way type of hacker." On the night before his arrest, McKinnon had been up playing games. "Maybe I'd been doing a bit of weak, fun hacking, too," he says. "I'd had one hour's sleep, and I woke up completely muddled, and suddenly at the bottom of my bed there was this voice: 'Hello, my name's Jeff Donson from the National High Tech Crime Unit. Gary McKinnon, you're under arrest.' "They put Tamsin and me in the meat wagon. They took my PC, Tamsin's PC, three other computers I was fixing for friends. They went upstairs and took my girlfriend's aunty's daughter's computer." McKinnon was kept in a police station overnight. Then the Americans offered him a deal, via his British solicitor. "They said, 'If you incur the cost of the whole extradition process, be a good boy, come over here, we'll give you three or four years, rather than the whole sentence.' "I said, 'OK, give me that in writing.' They said, 'Oh, no, we can't do that.' So they were offering a secret trial, no right of appeal on the outcome, no comment to the newspapers, and nothing in writing. My solicitor, doing her job, advised me to take it, and when I said no, she was very 'Ooh, they're going to come down heavy'." In return, McKinnon offered a somewhat harebrained counter deal, via a Virginia public defender. "I made a sort of veiled threat to them. I said, 'You know the places I've been, so you know the stuff I've seen,' kind of thing." He pauses and blushes slightly. "You know, the, uh, Non-Terrestrial Officers. The spaceships. 'The whole world thinks it's co-operating in building the International Space Station, but you've already got a space- based army that you refer to as Non-Terrestrial Officers."' There is a silence. "I had very little evidence. It's not a very good bargaining chip at all, really, is it?" Given the Justice Department has announced the information McKinnon downloaded was not "classified", and he was stoned much of the time, perhaps we can assume NASA is not too worried about his "discoveries". McKinnon hasn't spoken publicly before, but now, with the extradition proceedings, nothing is left open to him. For a while, he thought he might end up like the computer nerd from WarGames, having a brilliant career working for the Americans. "They need people like me," he says. "But that's not going to happen." He and Tamsin have split. He no longer lives in Crouch End, but in the nearby, slightly more down-at-heel Bounds Green, and has given up smoking dope. He is not allowed near the internet, is not allowed a passport, and spends a lot of time reading and sitting in the pub, awaiting his fate. Nothing much happened in the years since his arrest in 2002 under the Computer Misuse Act - no charges were brought against him in Britain. Then, on June 8, he found himself in front of Bow Street magistrates, the target of extradition proceedings. That's when the panic attacks kicked in again, the horror visions of life in a US jail. He had poked around, he says, but he hadn't broken anything, besides that one mistake. He thought he was going to get a year, max. Now they're talking about 70 years. "You know," he says. "everyone thinks this is fun or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 12 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 28 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:07:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:09:28 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 28 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 28 July 13, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-Mail: Masiniaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ UFO STALLS CAR NEAR SARGENT, TEXAS On Tuesday, July 5, 2005, at 8:50 p.m., eyewitness M.R. reported, "I was coming home from a fishing trip in Sargent, Texas. I had just turned off FM587 on to FM2611 when, all of a sudden, the lights in my car blinked twice, and then the car went dead." "I coasted to a stop at the top of a small hill that was a curve. I was frightened. For one, I am female and was traveling alone, and I was in the middle of nowhere. I thought that the reason for the power giving out in my car was because my brother had been using my car battery earlier in the day and may not have tightened the battery cables properly." "I didn't have a flashlight (torch in UK--J.T.) on me and I grabbed my cell phone to let someone know what had happened. Then I decided to get out of the car, knowing that my cell phone had a bright light on it, and I was going to check the battery cables." "Before I could open my cell phone to turn it on, a bright bluish glow started to light up a wooded area across the highway from me. At first I thought it was another vehicle coming up behind me, and I panicked for a moment because my car had stopped on top of the hill on a curve, and, if the vehicle was coming up the curve too fast, it would hit me." "But I realized quickly that it was not another vehicle. I couldn't quite identify the light, but the woods got suddenly brighter. The light went bright like a blue-white light bulb. It was more like the light from a giant blue flashlight or helicopter (search) light." "I watched it slowly start moving upward through the trees. I sat in complete silence while I watched it move up out of the trees until it was above the trees and clearly in the sky with the stars for a background. It was a huge bluish translucent ball of light, with the center of the ball much darker than the outer edges." "The outer edges of the ball seemed to vibrate or tremble slightly. It continuously rose up into the sky, at first slowly, but, the higher it got, the faster it went. Which was straight up into the sky until it disappeared." "I sat in the silent darkness for a few seconds and then turned my car keys, which I had never taken out of the ignition switch, and the car started right up." The UFO "was about 30 to 40 feet (9 to 12 meters) up. It was huge, maybe 30 to 40 feet (9 to 12 meters) across, but I could be mistaken. It was much larger than my car-- a Volvo DL wagon. I resumed my drive to Sweeny, Texas." Sargent is in Matagorda County, on Texas's Gulf of Mexico shore about 40 miles (64 kilometers) southwest of Galveston. (Email Form Report) UFOs APPEAR TWICE OVER EUREKA, CALIFORNIA Eureka, California (population 26,128) has been visited twice by UFO flotillas in the last month, according to one local resident. On Monday, June 6, 2005, Jenece Poree went outside after sunset and noticed an unusual "bright star" in the sky. She reported, "I first noticed a ship resembling a Christmas tree light bulb--a disk of gaudy brightness-- suspended over the rooftops west of my home. As I watched, it slowly descended in a falling-leaf motion below the power lines, below the rooftops." "The next night (Tuesday, June 7, 2005), I went outside at dusk and started seeing really bright stars. Also I saw a number of frenetically blinking smaller craft, with red and blue lights." "Two nights ago (Thursday, July 7, 2005), the sky was far more clear and there were large amounts of UFO activity over Eureka. Huge 'blinking' craft flashing several lights. One large one hovered over the Fairhaven pulp (paper) mill on Samoa Island out in Humboldt Bay. These Kleig-like 'stars,' upon closer inspection by binoculars, looked like amoebas or single-celled creatures as seen under a microscope. Very organic the way they move and writhe and climb aloft. They frequently have a little red companion hanging out nearby." "Height? Always above our chronic coastal overcast. Really high and fast but much lower the other night." Eureka is on California Highway 101 approximately 281 miles (449 kilometers) north of San Francisco. (Email Form Report) GOLD SPHERICAL UFO SEEN IN COLORADO SPRINGS On Monday, July 4, 2005, Ron Russell reported, "I was at my friend Gail's house at the Springs. We were sitting on her deck after a BBQ (barbecue--J.T.) when she looked up at the clouds heading towards the northeast and said, 'Oh! There's a ship up there. I can feel it.'" "Gail's a practicing psychic with years of experience, so I pay attention when she 'feels' something." "While we were both looking in that area, a bright illuminated golden spot (a small circle--R.R.) manifested itself and traveled from east to west at a constant speed. It never changed its course, speed or brightness and went across the sky in one minute." "We have a lot of military in this area--Fort Carson, NORAD, Schriever Air Force Base, the Space Command, and we see aircraft all the time." "Even though it was the Fourth of July, this was not any kind of fireworks I'd ever seen. While we thought at first it might have been a Mylar balloon, it traveled in the opposite direction to the prevailing wind with no bobbing or wobble we could discern, more like a determined path that was not subject to the wind." "We have no other explanation than it was a ship, like Gail intuited." Colorado Springs (population 360,890) is on Interstate Highway I-25 approximately 67 miles (112 kilometers) south of Denver, the state capital. (Email Form Report) CYLINDRICAL UFO SIGHTED OVER MIAMI, OKLAHOMA On July 4, 2005, at 8 p.m., eyewitness Jamce had an unusual encounter in the small city of Miami, Oklahoma (population 13,704). "I never read much about sightings in Oklahoma, so I would like to know what happened on July 4th at 8 p.m. We live in Miami, Okla. While at some friends' (house) on the Fourth, my husband and two friends were outside watching the grandkids with their firecrackers. They observed a cylinder-shaped object glide across the sky, my husband said." "It appeared white but changed to orange, though, as it reflected the sun. It made no noise, and there was no vapor trail. My friends said it moved very fast, and the whole sighting lasted just one minute. My husband yelled into the house for me to come and see. But when I got out there, it was already out of sight." "They said it was about a mile and a half (2.4 kilometers) higher than jets usually fly. Here's an odd note--my husband is the skeptic, and I'm the believer." Miami is on Interstate Highway I-44 in northeastern Oklahoma, located about 25 miles (40 kilometers) southwest of Joplin, Missouri. (Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International, for this report.) UFO FLOTILLA STARTLES YOUNG MOTHER IN ALBERTA On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., Lori Metisse and her two children got off the bus on Saddleback Road in Edmonton, the capital of Canada's Alberta province. Minutes later, they had a strange encounter. "I was walking with my two kids north on Saddleback Road. I was taking my newborn to a doctor's appointment. I had just gotten on the sidewalk" when "I don't know why, but I felt compelled to look up. I noticed something hovering in the southwestern sky. Immediately I saw 15 to 25 hovering black objects. They were kind of small. They just hovered there." "I held my gaze, without blinking. I thought my eyes could not be playing tricks on me, and I had better not blink. So I was able to view the object for maybe 20 to 30 seconds. And then they all disappeared together, all at the same time." "Then I blinked and tried to find out where they had all gone. I couldn't find them again. Many, many small black hovering objects, possibly oval or round in shape, and all of them beneath the clouds." "I took my newborn and my two-year-old and hurried to the doctor's office." (Email Form Report) NIGHT SAUCER SPOTTED IN SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO On Thursday, July 7, 2005, at 10:25 p.m., Roxanne C. was at her home, near the corner of Kennedy Road and St. Clair Avenue in Scarborough, Ontario, Canada when she witnessed an unusual incident. "I was standing at my back door, watching a small plane flying low and slow," Roxanne reported, "Then, a few minutes later, I saw the object flying overhead from the east, coming into a southwesterly direction. It was shaped like a triangle with rounded corners and five dim lights down each side. It was like a shadow. No sound at all. It gave me a chill when it was gone." "It was a dark grayish triangle with rounded corners and five dim lights down each side, both the left and the right. No sound at all." "I'd say it was about one-and-a-half kilometers (0.9 miles) higher than any plane I'd ever seen before." (Email Form Report) (Editor's Comment: The "low and slow" aircraft sounds like one of those FBI surveillance planes. But what's it doing in Canada? It also appears that the UFO was deliberately avoiding this plane.) UFO FLOTILLA TURNS UP IN CORDOBA, ARGENTINA Hard on the heels of a report about a chalk-white Man In Black (MIB) being seen in Cordoba, Argentina came reports of a UFO flotilla flying over this provincial capital. According to Ricardo D'Angelo, UFO Roundup's correspondent in Argentina, "A flotilla of several UFOs appeared in the sky over Cordoba, the capital of the province of the same name, on Thursday, July 7, 2005, at precisely 6:49 a.m." "At first these mysterious fireballs flew towards the southeast. Then they circled and crossed the heart of the city, anomalous and luminous, and changed course several times over the next few minutes. The event was witnessed by many people for over a half hour." "At 7:15 a.m., a large luminous object crossed the sky, leaving a bright flash as it did so. 'That one was showing intelligent activity,' an eyewitness reported. Images of this UFO were caught on one observer's SONY 360X videocamera." Around June 15, 2005, eyewitness Cristian H. Godoy saw a humanoid, which he described as "dressed all in black" with "an aged face colored chalk-white," at the Grupo Pilar manufacturing plant in Cordoba. Cordoba is located 400 kilometers (250 miles) west- northwest of Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina. (Muchas gracias a Ricardo D'Angelo para estas noticias.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 13 For UFO Expert Sci-Fi Is Real Life From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:15:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:15:13 -0400 Subject: For UFO Expert Sci-Fi Is Real Life Source: The Denver Post - Colorado http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2854816 07/13/2005 For UFO Expert Sci-Fi Is Real Life By Jeremy Meyer Denver Post Staff Writer Aurora - Two or three times a month, someone in Colorado looks into the sky and sees something he cannot identify. Often, that's when John Schuessler's group gets a call. Schuessler, a retired Boeing engineer who moved to Jefferson County, is the international director of the Mutual UFO Network, a 3,000-member nonprofit group that investigates UFO sightings and promotes research on the phenomenon. His group runs a website on which people can report their experiences and sends investigators to interview people who spy something strange. "We're not a lot of starry-eyed believers," Schuessler said. "We're a fairly skeptical group. There's no doubt in my mind about UFOs. We have firm evidence of it. We have videotapes. And the testimony by credible people is beyond question. ... Some of the most definitive documentation is by the government - 300,000 documents that all attest to the reality of UFOs." Schuessler will speak Sunday at the Aurora History Museum, which through Sept. 18 is featuring an exhibit celebrating a century of science fiction. He will talk about UFO sightings across Colorado - from the storm chaser in Jefferson County who reported a bowling-ball- like object flying out of clouds to a park packed with people who saw a strange craft 500 feet above Lakewood that zoomed straight up. There seems to be an unending number of sightings in the San Luis Valley. "They call that the 'mysterious valley,' and I can see why," Schuessler said. He will explain how his group, in cataloging and investigating UFO sightings around the world, is building a body of evidence that "there is something real (in the skies)." He added: "It's unusual, it's not ours, and it's something worth looking at." Perhaps that won't be much of a surprise to the visitors to the museum's popular "Science Fiction Century" exhibit, which opened July 4. Curator Matt Chasansky worked through various science-fiction groups in the Denver area to build the display, which includes everything from Star Wars costumes to first-edition books by H.G. Wells. The experience has been an eye- opener for Chasansky, who was never really a sci-fi buff until the exhibit. "At first I thought (science fiction) was escapism," he said. "People want somewhere that is totally invented that they can separate themselves from." But he realized it was more reality- based than other pop- culture genres such as horror or fantasy. Science fiction extrapolates actual scientific discovery. For example, Jules Verne's 19th-century stories about moonshots became reality by the 1960s. Schuessler doesn't see a conflict in talking factually about UFOs at an exhibition of science fiction. "We are living a real science- fiction situation that most people want to just read about," he said. "It is futuristic stuff. The characteristics of the UFO sightings are beyond our technological capabilities." Schuessler leaves conjecture - "Who is flying these vehicles?" "Why they are here?" - to the sci-fi buffs. "They come up with ideas based on reality but beyond reality," he said. "It's where the two merge - reality merges with science fiction." Staff writer Jeremy Meyer can be reached at 303-820-1175 or jpmeyer.nul Talk on UFOs Mutual UFO Network director John Schuessler will discuss UFO sightings in Colorado from 2 to 3:30 p.m. Sunday at the Aurora History Museum, 15051 E. Alameda Parkway, at the Aurora
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 13 Filer's Files #29 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:52:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:30:26 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #29 2005 Filer's Files #29 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International July 13, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Sightings Increase This week's files cover: London bombings, Its more dangerous on our highways than in Iraq for the National Guard and Puerto Rican National Day for UFOs. Also UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia and Wisconsin. Many sightings were also reported in Argentina, Canada, Chili, Crimea, India, Greece, and Mexico. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. 'War on the World' London was savagely attacked with four powerful bombs weighing five to ten pounds on July 7, 2005. The crowded London subway is a relatively easy target with three million riders each day that include races of every color, religion, and age. Three bombs were on the floors of the trains when they eexploded at 8:50 AM, killing over fifty people. I spent four years in England and rode the subway numerous times so the cruelty struck a nerve. At 9:47 AM, a double Decker bus exploded at Tavisstock Square, blowing the heads off two riders. Israeli intelligence indicates this is often an indication that the terrorists had blown themselves up. Police have released evidence that four suicide bombers were British citizens of Pakistani ancestry that recently returned from Pakistan. Closed circuit TV showed the four suspects with back packs at King's Cross station at 8:30 AM before entering separate trains. Three of the men lived in Leeds and the immediate fear is that members of a terrorist cell linked to the city are planning further strikes. The man who planted the bomb at Edgware Road was named last night as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, the married father of an eight-month-old baby, who is believed to have come from the Leeds area. Two other terrorists were Hasib Hussain, 19, who bombed the bus in Tavistock Square, of Colenso Mount, Leeds, and Shehzad Tanweer, 22, the Aldgate bomber, who lived at Colwyn Road, Leeds. Police are still trying to identify the fourth. A group calling itself 'Secret Organisation--Al-Qaeda in Europe' claimed responsibility on an Islamic Web site for the string of explosions it called 'blessed.'" The mastermind and bomb makers have not been found but explosives were found in Leeds. Everyone must be vigilant and realize thousands of terrorists are attempting to destroy the freedom that people of the West enjoy. The best chance for long term peace is for democracy to come to the Middle East. The terrorists are strong but losing the hearts and minds of much of the world. Al-Qaeda is able to recruit from Islam people prepared to die for their cause even when they could have used timing devices for their bombs. It should be noted that over 40% or the terrorists blowing themselves up in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia. I extend my sincere sympathy to all that were hurt and died in the bombings. Arizona UFO Sighting http://www.hbccufo.org/images/reports/sparkle1.jpg PHOENIX, SKY HARBOR =96 My wife thought she heard thunder on June 27, 2005, so we went outside to make sure everything was picked up that could blow away. I walked around the front of the house to look for thunder storms when I saw something that looked like a plane on approach to Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport, then two lights that didn't appear to move. They were spaced fairly far apart for a commercial aircraft to be that close and appear still, so I called my wife over to take a look. After a couple minutes it was obvious that it wasn't a conventional aircraft. I went inside to get my camera and binoculars. I took several pictures as it moved slowly off to the west and eventually below the roofline of the neighboring homes. Through the binoculars it looked like I was seeing the side of a triangular shaped object as it appeared slightly darker against a twilight sky. The most notable thing about my photos is that some showed a red light at the closest side of the object and some showed a green light in that position. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com California disk sightings LAKEWOOD =96 The witness saw a round shaped, orange colored disk hovering in one spot, that moved slightly and vanished. Then hours later on July 4, 2005, I saw the exact object again at 11:45 PM. We had lighted some fireworks, and my friends and I were sitting on the front lawn when I noticed a very bright circular, orange colored object in the sky. It was very bright and was just hovering there. At first I thought it was an airplane of some sort, but then I thought airplanes aren't that bright and just orange like that, nor are helicopters. Then, I thought it was a star, but realized stars don't shine that bright. So I realized it was a UFO. I ran into the house to grab the video camera. As I was zooming in, I thought it looked like a small bump on the top of the circular object, but couldn't exactly make it out. Because the object was too small to catch on tape. Then, we noticed the UFO started to vanish and got smaller and smaller. Then it was gone. At about 3:35 PM, I saw the same UFO again. They looked and knew I was joking. Then, before I was closing my windows I noticed the same UFO, orange and circular. It was doing the same motions, barely moving then disappearing. This startled me and my friends. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com SAN DIEGO =96 On July 4, 2005, at 9 PM, a bright triangle with orange lights was spotted above Mission Bay, so the witnesses parked on a hill. Very high over Mission Bay, I saw a very bright orange ball and as it got closer it looked like a V, it had ~5 bright orange lights on each arm of the V. It moved very fast to the left, stopped then moved forward and to the right. There also appeared to be some type of dripping orange fire from it, like a flare but this only happened twice. Then, the lights went out one at a time on the arms and it just looked like a star that faded out. Sober as hell and still pretty freaked out about it. I am an educated middle age woman, and never saw anything like it. I just can't believe we were the only ones to see it. I'm watching the news for it. Most people were watching the fireworks. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Illinois six spheres spotted CAROL STREAM =96 Last week, I'm not exactly sure the date, two friends saw an orange glow above the baseball park adjacent to the lake. I thought at first there were fireworks but there were six spheres flying in formation, three in front and three in rear, the front formation was a diagonal line of three. The rear was a triangle pointing to the front formation. It would have seemed a large single craft if they weren't osculating freely. They moved slightly in an in and out in perfect formation. This formation continued across the sky, which was a clear dusk sky. The individual objects were an amber, blue, gray all put together. The light was an iridescent glow. They appeared very high in the atmosphere, and were moving over the horizon very quickly, but soundless. They resembled the size of a magnified human egg, round with an inner circumference and an outer. Only my friend and I saw it, that we know of. As the Crafts continued across the dusk sky, we both observed them vanish one by one, front of the formation to the back. Please contact me at Guitardude823.nul Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Indiana diamond positive UFO photos ROANN -- I saw a silver diamond shape craft and thought it was an airplane. It was still and then it flipped to its side and vanished. I had my digital camera and just started taking pictures of where it had been, as I kept driving on July 1, 2005, at 7:05 PM. I saw nothing except traces in the sky, like smoke or rocket trails. When I downloaded the pictures I found 5 or 6 photos of the UFO with two pictures showing smoke circles and a zigzag pattern in the sky. It must have been traveling real fast because the camera caught what I could not see. It was a ball of fire with a black object in the center. I am very pleased with these photos. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Maryland two diamond shaped craft FRIENDSHIP -- I was walking through my neighborhood with my friend when we spotted two diamond shaped objects in the sky on June 30, 2005, at 10:45 PM. We thought they were stars, but then the objects started moving, and were a real bright white color. We stood there on the dark street corner for a two minutes and then they started moving east and slowly disappeared out of sight. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Maine Sphere WESTBROOK =96 My friend and I were riding our bikes on July 3, 2005, at 10:20 PM, and stopped for a minute as we watched four motorcyclists rides by. My friend said "hey what's that? And we saw a bright, large, moving star. It was like a fast moving North Star. After 5 to 10 seconds it was in the other side of the sky moving behind the trees. Look there's another one". It looked exactly like the other one except it was going in almost the exact opposite direction. It was going a little bit faster than the other one though and much faster than any aircraft. About 45 seconds after that one was gone the last one appeared. It looked the same and was moving the same speed although this one was the most unusual. It seemed to come out of no-where. It just vanished. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com North Carolina sphere KILL DEVIL HILLS OUTER BANKS -- On June 27, 2005, at 9:25 PM, I went outside facing south looking towards the side of the K-Mart, I barely noticed this orb-like object. Suddenly, this object moved sideways to the right, then flew left, then upwards a bit and again erratically sideways, sometimes hovering for a second or two, but then always resuming its path in moving up. By this point, my heart began racing because I realized that what I was seeing did not make any sense. I stood there and watched the object as it continued this erratic pattern across the sky until my view was obscured by the roof over my porch. I ran outside to the other side of the house so that I was facing east and again found the object continuing its path. Some people on the beach, set off some fireworks that shot into the sky and the orb moved north past the fireworks and within seconds it disappeared into the clouds. The object was perfectly round and seemed to blend in with the night sky. The object appeared to have been dark or matte. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Oklahoma metallic triangle CARTER =96 A low-flying triangular shaped object with three blinking lights flew for about four minutes, and then vanished on June 27, 2005, at 9:25 PM. It flew southeast, stopped for about a minute, turned northwest, flew for almost two minutes, and then vanished out of sight. Also, the lights on the object blinked in a sequential counter clockwise order. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Michigan gigantic UFO seen Lake Michigan Triangle -- On Tuesday, June 21, 2005, at 3:30 a.m., Alexander Reynolds and a few fishing buddies were trying their luck at a private beach on Cat's Head Point near Northport, 30 miles north of Traverse City. "I and a few friends were having a fish fry on a private beach in the early morning," Alex reported, "Then we all noticed an extremely large sphere of light many miles southwest. I'd say it was 1,000 feet (300 meters) in diameter--or larger." "It looked about twice as big as the moon would be on the horizon and looked like a big circle with the top sheared off just a bit above the center. It then 'grew' another sphere, and this one went below the horizon. "Its color was a burning orange, and the object's actual size may be reduced due to the brightness of the sky. It was as if the sun could be seen in the night sky, except that it illuminated nothing but itself--a giant burning ball. The whole thing lasted maybe 15 to 20 minutes. I would say the object was about 100 feet above the surface of Lake Michigan. Thanks to UFO ROUNDUP Vol. 10, # 27, July 6, 2005, Editor: Joseph Trainor Masinaigan.nul Missouri UFO photo from 1950's KANSAS CITY -- Richard Buchli D.V.M. PhD, This is from my 50s file when I was giving lectures on UFOs "those were the days" I subscribed to a clipping service and found out about this photo. This was the 12 year old boy's birthday, and he had received a camera. He took the camera to his back yard to try it out, and just as he went out, the UFO flew over and this is the shot he took... His father was a prominent doctor in that town, and I have every reason to believe his story. When I wrote to him and requested a copy of the picture he had taken, this was my response. Thanks to Richard Buchli D.V.M. PhD, docrib.nul Oklahoma mutilated cow found PARADISE HILL -- Skywatch International reports, He stops short of pointing the finger at aliens, but Ray Riguidel swears what he saw in his pasture last Friday evening couldn't have been done by humans or animals. Riguidel, 68, has been farming near Paradise Hill his entire life. During that time he's lost his share of cattle under various circumstances, but the 10- year-old cow he lost this weekend was far different from the rest. The udder was gone, one eye and ear had been removed and the sex organs were torn away. The remaining 50 or so cattle in the pasture had congregated as far away from the corpse as possible. There were no tire tracks or footprints. There was no sign of a struggle. Perhaps most bizarre, however, was a glaring lack of blood despite the numerous and carefully crafted incisions into the carcass. Visit The Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Oregon disk SPRINGFIELD =96 The witnesses were working in the yard on July 3, 2005 at 2 PM, when they and spotted a huge Coast Guard helicopter flying from the Oregon coast line. Right in front and above, at about 20,000 feet of the helicopter was a bright reflective saucer shaped object moving very, very slowly. It was back dropped by a clear blue sky without a cloud behind it. It seemed to be reflecting the sun in a type of pulsating, rhythmic display of extremely bright light. It was moving very slowly and then stopped moving. About 2:12 PM, the UFO did a vertical ascent and disappeared. The helicopter did a sharp turn right/south when the object stopped moving and did a 180 degree reverse path heading straight back west to the Cascade Mountains. Within two minutes we saw a large white jet coming from the south (maybe Klamath Air Force Base) heading north. It had radar unit on top of it. It was headed north into the exact spot from where the UFO hovered and disappeared. Using our digital camera we took several pictures of the UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Texas egg LAKE WACO -- On July 3, 2005, at 9 PM, the witnesses were on a camping trip when they saw an egg shaped object in the sky. The witness states "My Mom and I saw a flashing red, blue, and green object that was about 10,000 feet in the sky." We are pretty sure it was egg shaped but it was hard to see. It was also slightly moving for four or five minutes Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Nevada Area 51 Japanese NHK film crew Eugene Cuthbertson writes, "I go a long way back in UFOlogy, to NICAP. and APRO. I've had a few sightings, accompanied a Japanese NHK video team to Area 51, and I had a very brief close encounter. The Japanese NHK film crew got some good stuff and I have a copy of it on video, which I am going to convert to CD and into this Dell computer, as an MPEG." The Japanese were careless and worried me a great deal. This has been a few years ago, before Freedom Ridge was closed. The Japanese monitored the security patrols and you can hear the patrol radio back that his area is clear. When the patrol went back, the Japanese waited a short time, continued to monitor security, illegally I think, then followed him back in but I don't know how close we actually were. On the video you can see a fairly large lighted craft emerge straight up. It either issued another craft or another craft, which was red, went up with it, screened off from us and appeared. Both maneuvered for several seconds or a minute then went back down to the base. We were on the backside of Groom Mountain. On the VCR, if you pause the video and press the tracking buttons, the static confetti will be deleted and it is possible to make out both disks for what they are. This was part of a six-hour miniseries in Japan and I have the final 2 hours of it. For years I didn't think much about the tape, assuming that most people in Ufology already knew about it. Gene Nevada UFO's seen several days in a row LAS VEGAS =96 The witness reports seeing UFOs five days in a row. On Thursday, July 7, 2005, he saw five objects all the same kind (morphing) between 1:15 and 2:30 PM. Friday, July 8, 2005, I saw numerous objects, starting at noon in the backyard. I looked up and saw the same star like object in the same portion of sky and I ran inside to get my binoculars. It was not only the star-like object but there were at least nine other objects all around it and the scariest part was that I could actually see them dropping straight down from the sky to surround the bright one. Three of the objects moved away from the others and moved in a northwesterly direction over my house. I did get all three on the camera but it was fast. Then, today, Saturday, July 9, 2005, I saw fifteen more and while watching one of them through the binoculars three more came into my field of view and all four were close together, then two of them just blinked out! Thanks to Brian Vike Ohio sightings FOSTORIA -- KennethJankowski.nul writes: "The Fostoria craft are phasing, and are definitely a dimensional craft. Those are the ones that look thirty feet on the outside, but once inside its like a hundred yards wide. MIDDLEBURG HEIGHTS -- Aaron Clark reports he received two reports on the www.clevelandufo.com the website. Report #1 "This evening I was coming home after dropping off my daughter's friend, it was about 11:45 PM, and my two teenage daughters and my niece were in the car with me when we noticed a bright red light in the sky above my house. It looked like a TV tower light except it was not blinking. We stood in the driveway for twenty minutes viewing when suddenly, it started falling. It zipped through the sky with great speed and flew north, when it simply disappeared. Report #2 "On July 10, 2005, while working at Cleveland Hopkins Airport we saw a red light in the sky, just above the Ford plant in Brookpark. The light hovered for about 45 minutes and was probably 2 to 3 thousand feet in the sky. It was not a helicopter, blimp or an airplane, and made no noise... The ATC tower was called and they didn't know what it was either, eventually it turned and starting moving to the east and eventually vanished." Thanks to Aaron Clark www.clevelandufo.com Pennsylvania unidentified black oval object LEVITTOWN -- I was swimming in my back yard pool when I noticed a small dark oval shaped object in the Eastern Sky on June 26, 2005, at 7:10 PM. It appeared to be motionless not ascending or descending. It looked to be about 1 mile away and at an altitude of 5-10,000 feet. The sky was clear and the visibility was greater then 7 miles. My wife and my 6 year old daughter also witnessed the object. We were watching this for about 10 minutes and then it slowly began to rise higher on the horizon and move to the right behind a tree that is in our back yard. I could see the object through the tree branches but it disappeared rather suddenly. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com South Carolina disk with bright lights HILTON HEAD =96 Three friends spotted an extremely bright light in the sky, hovering over Hilton Head Island Beach on June 25, 2005 at 10 PM. It was a large circular object with 8 or so bright white lights on the bottom just hovering without making any sounds. My friend asked us to stop and see if it was moving. We stopped and observed that it was ever so slightly moving to the right of us. This is on the beach with thirty mile an hour winds whipping. We decided to run towards it to get a closer look and as we did, it seemed to come closer to us for about 15 seconds. The eight lights were on the round area on the top that seemed like a "cockpit". As we continued running towards it, it seemed like the object saw us, and hovered away to the right, dipping lower and lower until it seemed like it had landed, and where it disappeared; there was a bright light in the sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Virginia unknowns MONROE --I saw them in the WSW sky from my location in western Amherst County, on July 5, 2005 at 2:30 PM. They were very distant, like watching a satellite cross the night sky. They were in a cluster when I first saw them, then a minute or so later they dispersed in all directions. The object zigzagged with extremely quick movements. Later one returned to the same sky and would move quickly one direction to the next and then stopped, then seemed to disappear. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Wisconsin circle MT. PLEASANT =96 On July 2, 2005, at about 9:45 PM, a red round object was seen flying west then going north. Looking north towards Milwaukee on a clear night, with stars visible, airplanes coming and going out of Mitchell Airport and fireworks going off, my son and I saw a red light appear out of the east by Lake Michigan. We could not tell the distance and no sound but there was a solid red light in color/round in shape. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Argentina mutilations continue Francisco Fazio has an impressive web in Argentina that shows many mutilations that have taken place in that country. Web site: www.franciscofazio.com.ar. Thanks to Francisco Fazio Canadian sightings increase Oshawa/Whitby, Ontario Paul Shishis writes, "On Sunday, July 10, 2005, at about 11:30 AM, as I stepped outside on the deck facing west. I looked up and witnessed a round white object, tumbling in motion with a hint of red." This object was moving east to west, about 2-3000 ft., at the speed of about 100 mph + would be a guess. I watched it for about 10-15 seconds; and it just vanished in the hazy blue sky. Looking directly west, I saw a streamlined object like a white jet, but more thick in body at about 10, 000 feet + that looked like a jet. When this object moved closer to a mile away, it redirected southward, towards Lake Ontario. The object changed direction, =91sideways' so it was definitely =91not' a jet and I did not see any wings. This object after redirecting south in 10 seconds, just vanished! Thanks to Paul Shishis ABBOTSFORD, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- On June 30, 2005, at 12:45 AM, I grabbed my CD player and my pack of cigarettes and went out on the patio when something caught my eye from the apartment building across the parking lot. It looked like someone had thrown a Becel margarine container over the next building with what looked like tin foil around it (the object was way bigger than a margarine container, but the same shape), it was shining and when I looked at it about two seconds later it slowed down and looked like it was gliding. The object got out of view after almost a minute and my CD batteries died. The next day, the CD started to play perfectly normal and then I remembered the night before. The batteries were almost full and everything worked fine. The flying object definitely looked as though it was maneuvering on its own, just soaring, but there was no wind. Thanks to Brian Vike. MERRITT, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- We were watching the fireworks on July 1, 2005, about 10:30 PM. My family and I plus about 100 other people always sit on this grassy hill when it's fireworks time and tonight while the small ones were popping away, I heard someone say "What's the light up there?" So we all looked and way up high was a single bright roundish light almost overtop of us that flew off south after 30 seconds. I've never heard of a plane having one of those bright headlights on the back of it. There was no sound noticed, the color was just like a large white plane light when it's flying towards you but this was flying away and had no other lights. It gained speed as it moved away.. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189 email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.org TERRACE, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- I saw a silvery disk appearing on the 8th of this month at 21.20 PM. I was reading on my porch, facing NW, when I witnessed something out of the corner of my eye and looked up. In a distance of +- 50 meters, I could see a silvery disk hovering around 40 meters above the ground. The object did look like polished steel, because it was reflecting the trees and area below like a mirror. The lower half of the same was more bulgy (wider) and four rings were clearly visible. The lower right of the disk had some markings or writing in light red. It remained stationary for a few seconds and flew of to the south, and when I looked on the other side of my trailer there was only clear sky. Chile UFO landing video under analysis ULTIMA ESPERANZA, 12 TH REGION -- Terra.cl reports that incredible images depict the landing of an unidentified flying object in southern Chile. This sequence of clips form part of an exclusive video taken in one of the world's southernmost locations and which show the vast amount of UFO manifestations in that territory, which is considered a UFO 'hotspot". This video was taken on March 17, 2004, and is under analysis by AION's director, Rodrigo Fuenzalida. Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, IHU. Crimea summer UFO wave CRIMEAN PENINSULA -- As we established for many years of observations, UFOs appear over Crimean Peninsula every summer. On Tuesday, June 14, 2005, at 10:30 PM, numerous witnesses on the Black Sea saw a brightly lit disk-shaped UFO, emanating a bright-red light. The disk traveled at slow speed along the coast near Yalta and then began hovering over the Mogabi Mountain that is 804 meters above sea level. The disk then emitted two bright rays of red light pointed towards the earth. It then sharply zoomed up and vanished in the night sky. Local Yalta-based newspaper "Krymskiye Izvestiya" reported incident on June 22, 2005. This the first time, UFOs hovered over Mount Mogabi. They were reported in 1990-1992 several times. We believe that some kind of the alien nano - technological device, possibly an alien monitoring device or a beacon is there gathering information. It's possible the rays recharged the device. Mount Mogabi has a great view of Yalta. PUGACHYEV, SIMFEROPOL' --On July 2 or 3, 2005, after 11 PM, Yuriy A. Pugachyev, Simferopol'-based UFO researcher, saw the brightly lit object, emitting yellow light, moving across the sky, from his balcony on the 5fth floor. The witness is sure these were not satellites nor airplanes, because the UFO was bright and moved in a zigzag trajectory. The witness also emphasized he saw several UFO's last year from his balcony. Numerous rumors circulate around ancient underground cavern bases, cities and tunnels, allegedly left from ancient times. Some parts of this underground infrastructure in Southern Ukraine and Crimean peninsula are still allegedly used by aliens and UFOs from time to time. There are solid rumors about "gateways" or "windows" to some parallel dimension on Ay'-Petri plateau west of the town of Yalta where numerous UFOs are regularly observed. Thanks to Dr. Anton A. Anfalov, Crimean UFO Research an.nul tel. (home) 380 (652) 25-66-90 ul. Kyibusheva str. 13, kv. 332 Simferopol'-34, AR Crimea, 95034 UKRAINE Greece very bright light ZAKYNTHOS =96 On June 29, 2005, at 10:40 PM, the witness reports, "We observed a bright light traveling in a north-easterly direction, faster than a plane that stopped for ten seconds, and then slowly disappeared." It was traveling very fast without noise, and no aircraft flashing lights. At first we though it was a satellite, so we fetched our binoculars and followed it through the night sky. Then, it stopped for about ten seconds, afterwards it continued to move slowly but appeared to be moving upwards and away because its light became gradually dimmer until it disappeared altogether. It was a very clear night with lots of stars out. All three of us saw the light for about 60 seconds. It was brighter than any star in the sky. India UFO sighting Mumbai -- On June 25, 2005 at 10 PM, we were on our terrace in the monsoon season so whatever we saw was not stars because it was cloudy. W spotted a small circle of light, a dot just above our heads that flew towards the east and again went back to opposite direction in high speed. There are no known modern military craft that can go at such high speed Indonesia: UFO/Meteor Video WEST JAVA -- On Sunday, 26 June 2005 at 17.50 PM, my daughter told me there was something up in the sky. Some of my neighbors were already looking at something like a meteor coming down to Earth and burning. I grabbed my DVD camcorder, and recorded only a few seconds that I transferred to my PC. Many of the neighbors are witnesses. No one reported any sound, and it did not hit the ground either. There were no reports of airplane crashes or meteors on TV. This sighting was in Graha Yasa Asri, Jl. Raya Serua Sawangan, Depok, Jawa barat, Thanks to Christopher Montgomery UFORC International Global Network http://uforc.com, video clip http://www.kiwisgraphics.com/indonesiaufo.html MEXICO CITY -- Jaime Maussan during the radio show 'Los Grandes Misterios' on July 3, 2005, reports that forty or more UFOs were sighted near Xalapa on June 30, 2005. A strong rain during early hours left a clean sky, when Pedro Avila, director of the Vigilantes Skywatch group received a call from colleague Enriquer Vallarino telling that an employee alerted him of a UFO sighting outside on Cuahutemoc Street people were already excitedly pointing at a cluster of UFOs. At the same time, the Jaime Maussan Research Center began receiving calls from witnesses seeing a fleet of many shining UFOs flying together. According to Pedro Avila, "It took just a few minutes to receive confirmation from his Vigilantes colleagues that there were UFOs and they were videotaping forty metallic, sphere shaped objects shinning in the sun. There was a single, larger object noticed above the main formation which was described as having a yellowish color." Jaime Maussan received a report from Alfredo Adame, popular TV host from a daily show by TELEVISA saying that many people were calling the TV show reporting a huge UFO sighting. People at the airport's control tower were asked if their radar screens were detecting the objects but they declined to make any statements. At least three videos were taken by Maria Montcerrat. The images were carefully analyzed and the 'balloon' explanation was quickly discarded because of the synchronized flight path and patterns flown by the whole mass of UFOs. Mr. Olazcoaga managed to capture on video the moment when the UFO formation moved slowly with the moon behind, a beautiful image. His son Jesus is heard on the tape asking him: "Are they going to attack us?" Thanks to Santiago Yturria Puerto Rico enormous tapeworm UFO A AGUADILL-- Professor Reinaldo Rios reports, "On Tuesday, June 28, 2005, about 10:15 PM, an enormous tapeworm shaped ship with several lights underneath was observed in intervals over the northwest area of the island. Residents of Aguadilla saw the craft hovering above. A young person Carlos Hernandez took a photo with his digital camera. Professor Rios went to the area to interview many of the witnesses." They reported, "The object remained overhead for a long period of time emitting various colored lights that were changing. The photo provided by writing Channel 12 of WOLE TV in Puerto Rico who produce programs on UFOs for this company. The photo shows several lights in colors surrounded by a reddish light, that changed the color tonality." Thanks to Prof. Reinaldo Rios Press OCPI of PR # 97-055 [ mailto:reinaldorios888.nul ]reinaldorios888.nul Puerto Rico National Day of UFOs LAJAS -- Gladys Nieves Ramirez reports, that a mystery surrounds the town where on June 25, 2005, National UFOs Day, was celebrated along with Extraterrestrial or Wagon Route 303. Reinaldo Rios, coordinator of the event, said that the activities will commemorate recent important. Lajas, was proclaimed the UFO Capital of Puerto Rico by the municipal government, and is full of strange things. Rios said, He has testimony of rare creatures in the area of the Cartagena Lagoon, where UFOs are frequently seen entering and leaving. Its safer in Iraq than on the highway Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, the Army general in charge of National Guard forces states, "The dangers faced by American troops in Iraq have been exaggerated. The casualty rate for Guardsmen is low compared with any previous armed conflict, He said he recognizes that every death is a tragedy for that person's family. "But I lose, unfortunately, more people through private automobile and motorcycle accidents over the same period of time," he added. Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. I have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Right now we need $300 to upgrade our web site. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. Subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's File is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 13 Secrecy News -- 07/13/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:27:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:34:34 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/13/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 64 July 13, 2005 ** INTELLIGENCE THREAT HANDBOOK ** IRS INVESTIGATIVE HISTORY ** NRO OPERATIONAL FILES ** SOVIET USE OF DECLASSIFIED U.S. DOCUMENTS INTELLIGENCE THREAT HANDBOOK The nature of the foreign intelligence threat to the United States is characterized in a recent "Intelligence Threat Handbook" prepared for the government's Interagency OPSEC Support Staff. Along with perfunctory discussions of economic espionage and computer security issues, the Handbook provides concise and intermittently interesting accounts of the foreign intelligence services of Russia, China, Cuba and North Korea, and their collection practices. Thus, "China has seven intelligence services, but only three conduct the PRC's covert intelligence operations against the United States." (p. 19). The Chinese Ministry of State Security "operates under different intelligence concepts than the West, although some of its techniques are completely familiar." (p. 21). "Chinese HUMINT operations primarily rely on collecting a small amount of information from a large number of people." (p. 24). The Handbook, which is based entirely on published sources (including the FAS web site), is unclassified, but is marked "For Official Use Only." It was first reported in May 2005 by Anthony Capaccio of Bloomberg News. A copy was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Intelligence Threat Handbook," Interagency OPSEC Support Staff, no date (2005?): http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/handbook/index.html IRS INVESTIGATIVE HISTORY An official history of Internal Revenue Service investigations, also marked "For Official Use Only" and withdrawn from public access in 1996, has been published online by TheMemoryHole.org. See "75 Years of IRS Criminal Investigation History, 1919-1994," now available here: http://www.thememoryhole.org/irs/75_years.htm NRO OPERATIONAL FILES The vast range of records designated by the National Reconnaissance Office as "operational files" that are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act is spelled out in a 2003 NRO memorandum for the Director of Central Intelligence. According to the NRO, all manner of policy, planning, budgetary and legal records may be considered "operational." In fact, it is hard to think of a record that would not potentially be "operational" under the terms of the NRO memo. "I understand that the DCI approved this, but it clearly goes beyond the statutory definition for the NRO's files," observed Meredith Fuchs, general counsel of the National Security Archive. That statutory definition (at 50 U.S.C. 403-5e) is limited to files "that document the means by which foreign intelligence or counterintelligence is collected through scientific and technical systems." See "Designation of Operational Files of the National Reconnaissance Office," 10 February 2003: http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/nro-cbjb/opfiles.pdf An internal NRO email message in 2003 discussed the implementation of the newly enacted operational files exemption: "I am very hopeful that this designation will greatly reduce the resources required to respond to FOIA requests," an NRO official wrote. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/nro-cbjb/email041403.pdf The application of the "operational files" exemption to unclassified NRO budget documents is the subject of a new FAS FOIA lawsuit (SN, 06/30/05). SOVIET USE OF DECLASSIFIED U.S. DOCUMENTS Official anxiety over declassification of historical records is reflected in a 1975 National Security Council memorandum for Henry Kissinger which laments the skillful Soviet use of declassified U.S. documents. "The Soviets keep close tabs on documents declassified by this government, even those which are non-sensitive and as much as 30 years old, and make use of these documents in propaganda attacking U.S. policies," wrote NSC official Denis Clift, who cited several examples. The two page memorandum ("administratively confidential") was located at the Gerald R. Ford Library by Mark Kramer of Harvard, who kindly provided a copy. See "Soviet Use of Declassified Documents," National Security Council, October 8, 1975: http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/nsc1975.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 14 July 6 Larry King Live Transcript From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:44:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:44:44 -0400 Subject: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript Back from the glorious Heart Bay on Go Home Lake in Muskoka - a classic documentary Canadian vista to work..... My thanks to Skywatch & Bill Hamilton for the lead to this one. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Source: CNN Transcripts - Larry King Live http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/06/lkl.01.html Aired July 6, 2005 - 21:00 ET CNN Larry King Live Experts Discuss Possibility Of Existence Of UFOs Aired July 6, 2005 - 21:00 ET This Is A Rush Transcript. This Copy May Not Be In Its Final Form And May Be Updated. LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, are UFOs real or fake? Have they actually been here? Some say the truth is out there. Others say there is no proof at all. Now we'll go inside some 60 years worth of sensational, controversial reports. About people who say they saw UFOs and those who even claim they were abducted by them. Investigators on both sides of the UFO question will take your calls. It's next on LARRY KING LIVE. Let's meet our panel in what should be an extraordinary hour. In Denver, Colorado, is John Schuessler, former engineer for Boeing and NASA who has worked with pilots and astronauts who claim to have seen UFOs. He's director of the Mutual UFO Network and author of a book documenting a disturbing Texas UFO siting. In Boston is Dr. Susan Clancy, skeptical author of an upcoming book, "Abducted" about people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Says memories are not always factual or reliable. Here in Los Angeles is Seth Shostak, he is senior astronomer for the SETI Institute. The Search for Extra-Terrestrial intelligence. In New York is Budd Hopkins, a top researcher into the UFO abduction phenomena. Author of "Sight Unseen, Science, UFO Invisibility and Transgenic Beings." In Washington is Rob Swiatek, long-time UFO investigator, researcher since 1968. And a board member of the Fund for UFO Research. And also in Washington is Bruce Maccabee, active in UFO research since the late 1960s. Works with the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, serves on the national board of the Fund for UFO Research. John, what got you interested in this whole topic to begin with, John Schuessler? JOHN SCHUESSLER, MUTUAL UFO NETWORK: I became interested in the mid '60s during the Gemini IV flight when astronaut James McDivit (ph) said that he saw something in orbit. The ground controllers kind of ignored him but he went ahead and took a picture and later came back and asked him what he saw. This was not anything really classic but as a young engineer, it just inspired the heck out of me because we'd worked night and day for several years to get Gemini IV up there. After that I started after that talking to pilots and others who I thought were highly credible people, good observers, capable individuals, and I've never stopped sense. KING: Dr. Clancy, what aroused your interest? SUSAN CLANCY, AUTHOR, "ABDUCTED": I started studying aliens while a graduate student at Harvard. I was doing research on how traumatic experiences impact memory functioning and to make a long story short, alien abductions was a type of traumatic experience people were reporting. And it was very interesting to me because, from the scientific perspective it was people who had created a false memory and that's an interesting group to study. KING: Seth, what is the SETI Institute? SETH SHOSTAK, SETI INSTITUTE: Well, the SETI Institute is an organization - a non-profit research organization designed to investigate the whole question of life beyond earth. And part of our project is to try and prove that there is extraterrestrial - not only life, but intelligent life out there by eavesdropping on signals. KING: You like the movie "Contact"? SHOSTAK: Indeed. The movie "Contact" was based on our work. KING: Paul Allen funded this? SHOSTAK: Paul Allen has funded a lot of our research. He didn't fund that movie, of course, and he doesn't fund all of our research. KING: Budd Hopkins in New York, what got you interested? BUDD HOPKINS, UFO ABDUCTION RESEARCHER: I had a daytime UFO sighting in 1964. I again was a complete skeptic. I had no interest in the subject. And then a few years later a man I knew quite well told me about a UFO landing that he had observed. He didn't know what to call it. This was back in 1975. But he saw figures who disembarked from the craft. Soil samples were taken. The remains of the holes in the ground that were dug. This was in New Jersey right across the Hudson River from Manhattan. And I looked into it and found a second witness who had seen the whole thing from another perspective and found more physical evidence and I was off and going. KING: Rob, you're a long-time investigator. What got you involved? ROB SWIATEK, UFO INVESTIGATOR: Well, Larry, I was completely intrigued by sightings of these strange objects back in the 1960s. I couldn't believe that seemingly unexplained craft were being seen in our skies and couldn't be explained. Moreover, I was fascinated by the University of Colorado UFO study that was then on going and this was basically an attempt by the Air Force to have the UFO problem looked at scientifically. The whole thing just fascinated me and I've been fascinated from that day to this. KING: Now we'll turn to Bruce Maccabee, and it is a fascinating subject No doubt about that. Bruce, what got you involved in things up there? BRUCE MACCABEE, UFO RESEARCHER: Yeah, well, back in the '50s an '60s when there were lots of sightings around, I learned - I knew about them but I didn't really do anything about it until about the middle '60s when there were a lot of sightings in the United States that resulted in the University of Colorado study that Bob Swiatek just referred to. And at that time I decided that if there was really something there where the rubber meets the road is in the interviews with the actual witnesses that claim things. So I went with a group known then as Night Cap, and we interviewed some people that would have various types of sightings and it turned out they weren't nuts and so I decided there might be really something going on. And I began a historical research and further case investigation and all of them concluded that there is really something flying around. KING: Okay, we've got to have drawn sides here. In March of 1997 there were numerous reports from people who claim to see mysterious lights over Phoenix, Arizona, in a special on UFOs earlier this year ABC's Peter Jennings explored it. Watch. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PETER JENNINGS, ABC ANCHOR (voice-over): There have been UFO sightings with hundreds, even thousands of eyewitnesses. Phoenix, Arizona, March 13th, 1997. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were some incredible sightings over Phoenix, called the Phoenix Lights. And they occurred while I was doing my program. I took call after call after call of people in Phoenix saying oh, my God, what's flying over our city? JENNINGS: At 8:30 p.m. that night hundreds of people reported seeing a mysterious flying something. Security guard Bob Nelson (ph) was sitting on his porch with his dog. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six or seven lights came across the top of the hill and it was moving very slow. And then I went in jokingly said to my wife, we've got a UFO coming over. (END VIDEOTAPE) KING: By the way, a skeptic interviewed for that ABC special claimed the lights were merely flares and aircraft flying in formation and people were just connecting dots. John, that's a classic example of so many things we've seen and heard through the years. What do you believe? SCHUESSLER: I believe there are actual unconventional flying objects in our skies on a regular basis. We at MUFON get in over 300 calls a month of raw data. That culls down to about 10 percent resulting in good sightings. Many like the Phoenix Lights. KING: Which tells you to believe these are extra terrestrials coming into our atmosphere? SCHUESSLER: I'm not willing to say they are extraterrestrials. I don't know where they from. But they are beyond what we fly at this point in time and have been at any point in time for the past 50 years. KING: Where else, Seth, could they be from then? SHOSTAK: I would like to ask that myself. Either their extraterrestrial or there's something - it's neighbors. But, the funny thing is, despite 58 years of sightings of this thing, nobody can put a piece of evidence on this desk, if you go to the local science museum and look for some sort of display showing what we have learned, what we have collected from all of these sightings, there's nothing there. KING: Why do you keep studying it? SHOSTAK: We're not studying aliens that might be invading our airspace. I don't think that the aliens are buzzing the countryside. I just don't think the evidence is good enough for that. I don't think it's proven. But I do think that there is something out there. There's clearly, to my mind, enormous probability that there's life out there, even intelligent life. KING: We'll take a break and come back with more. We'll be including your phone calls. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1947, Americans found their skies filled with all sorts of strange flying objects. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The UFO phenomenon really took off, actually, in June of 1947 in the State of Washington when a pilot by the name of Kenneth Arnold saw many objects going in formation at a very, very high speed by Mount Rainier in Washington. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arnold said that the nine silvery objects he'd seen looked like saucers skipping over a pond. The next day, his story was front-page news, and a new term entered the American lexicon-- flying saucer. (END VIDEOTAPE) KING: That's from a Sci-Fi network special aired recently on Roswell and UFOs, and that was the clip from that. What, Budd Hopkins, I know you're a believer. But Seth just said there's no proof can be shown. Can you show us tonight right now absolute proof that extraterrestrials came here? HOPKINS: The first thing I want to say is about a believer. There are two groups of people looking into the subject. The true believers and the pragmatists. And the pragmatists believe when they hear a story of an abduction, for instance, that either there's a mental problem or there's a hoax involved here or that it really happened. The true believers, and Susan Clancy would be certainly one of the true believers. The true believers know in advance that this did not happen, that this is a false memory. And she has said so in her writing. In other words, rather than investigating she makes the assumption that these are simply impossible. Now, I can look into cases that turned out to be certainly not real abduction experiences, but the point is we have to test each one and look into it. KING: What do you believe? Do you believe that extraterrestrials have come to the planet earth? HOPKINS: Again, I echo what John Schuessler said, I don't like to use the term extraterrestrial. We don't know where they're from. The interesting thing is we know what they're doing, what they look like, the marks they leave on the ground and on people and how they can be photographed. We don't know where they come from, what their ultimate goal is. KING: No one can know that. Dr. Clancy, if I told you I saw one today or I was abducted, you would definitely say that I was whacko? CLANCY: No. I would never say you were whacko, Larry King. In fact, I don't think anybody who sees aliens or thinks they have been abducted is necessarily whacko. In fact, the research shows otherwise. In general, people who believe they've been abducted are not suffering from any more psychopathology than the average person. I would think that you actually thought you saw an alien. But I would also know that what you think you saw is not necessarily what you actually saw. KING: How would you know that? CLANCY: I mean, human perceptual systems are frail. How would I know that? I wouldn't know it for sure. I would think it was interesting but until I saw some form of objective evidence that it was extraterrestrial in nature, I wouldn't believe it. KING: Are you open to the idea, Seth? SHOSTAK: I'm certainly open to the idea. It doesn't violate physics to come here from other worlds. Could be. But if you're going to make that claim, as Carl Sagan was fond of saying, extraordinary claim like that requires pretty convincing evidence. The L.A. Police Department solves 80 percent of the murders committed by humans against other humans. What about the other 20 percent? You think they're aliens? Could be, but I don't think so. KING: Before Rob shows us some extraordinary pictures and the whole panel comments, in 1997 the U.S. Air Force issued a report declaring the Roswell case crossed. The Air Force said the so- called space aliens were military dummies used in high altitude parachute drops. What do we make, Bruce Maccabee of Roswell? MACCABEE: Well, I think something actually occurred which has not yet been explained. I have not been convinced by what the Air Force claimed and, of course, what I call the dummy drop theory of Roswell doesn't satisfy anyone, even the skeptics tended to laugh at that. I like to stick to the testimony the original witnesses which made claims about extreme characteristics of the materials that were found and so on. My own opinion, however, has not been based on Roswell but all the other types of sightings that I have investigated, including photographic film and video cases. KING: Why do you think, Rob, that they don't - why do they go over strange places, pictures? They never land in Washington, DC at noon while Congress is in session. SWIATEK: Well, Larry, I wish they would. KING: I know, I know. But why - this intelligent life wouldn't do that? SWIATEK: There is an answer to that and here is the answer. If we are indeed dealing with alien intelligence we have absolutely no idea what this alien intelligence - how it would act and what it would do. Woody Allen once said, maybe they like to hover. And that's what I would say. How does any of us as a human being know how an alien race would think? Their idea of contact might be to never approach main government buildings or land at the mall or the river entrance of the Pentagon. So I think it's just kind of ridiculous to discount the whole phenomenon because they don't do what we as humans think they would do. KING: Well, since this has been reported for ages, are we ever going to know Rob, do you think? SWIATEK: Yes, I think we will know, Larry. I think this problem is amenable by science. But I'm not going to say we're dealing with ETs because I think that's one step beyond where we are as researchers of this phenomenon. The first thing we to do is deal with the data such as it is. And if the data is that they never land in public places and that they just have overflights of military bases or airline pilots deal with these things, and see them, then we have to an nice and investigate those data. Not the data we would like to have or not the ashtray from the craft we would like to have but the data such as it exists. That's what science does. And unfortunately mainstream science hasn't yet looked at the great cases, the really good cases in the UFO subject that exist. KING: We're going to say some of Rob's pictures when we come back. We'll also ask John what pilots tell him. They're up there all the time. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. At the bottom of the hour we'll include your phone calls. Our subject is - don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Pre "War of the Worlds," which is terrific, that "The Day the Earth Stood Still" is the best science fiction movie about UFOs ever made. What do pilots tell you, John? SCHUESSLER: Well, pilots tell us real good stuff. You have to stop and think. A pilot is a highly credible, highly trained, good observer that protects the life, whether military pilot or civilian, of millions of people a day. They say that things fly up to their aircraft, they're quite often noticed on radar. They move around the aircraft in ways that their own airplane can't do in very close proximity, not amorphous lights in the sky, the structural, physical things that come right up to them. They say this is bizarre. This is beyond belief. I've got the tell somebody, and they record that. Quite often, though, they can't get the back-up tapes from the FAA or elsewhere showing what was on radar. But we know it's there and we do have a lot of radar visual cases now. You can fool the radar a little, the eye a little but it's almost impossible to fool them together. Particularly ... KING: Why would you doubt pilots, Seth? SHOSTAK: I don't doubt the pilots have seen something but to say that it's extraterrestrial craft is a big step. We have thousands of satellites looking down on the earth all the time. You show them on the weather, right? They don't see these things. You've got amateur astronomers looking every night. They don't see these things. KING: Rob has brought extraordinary photos with us. Rob, we'll put some up and talk about them. First, this is McMinnville, Oregon. SWIATEK: Larry, McMinnville, Oregon, was a series of two UFO photographs. You are looking at, I believe, photograph two there. That is photograph number one. These photos have passed the muster over many years of study of many experts, including Dr. Maccabee here. Now the thing I wanted to qualify about UFO photographs is that in an of themselves they don't prove we're dealing with ETs. Any photograph can be hoaxed. The good thing about photographs like McMinnville is that all the obvious explanation force how the photographs might have been hoaxed or what these photographs show have been ruled out. I.e: a model suspended from the wires. It's certainly not an unusual cloud. It's not something that the witnesses, through in front of them like a Frisbee and photographed. Extensive research by private sector scientists like Dr. Maccabee and by the University of Colorado study back in the '60s, couldn't explain these sightings and they're representative of what people see. I think that's the core of what I'm saying. KING: Susan, how do you react when you look at that? CLANCY: How I react is I look at that and I think, well, that could have been somebody throwing a disk in the sky. And taking a picture of it. But that's an aside. I find interesting about the pictures is they're flying saucers. And I want to remind the viewers that flying saucers were supposedly first seen by Kenneth Arnold in 1947, but if you actually look at the transcripts of what he said he saw, he did not see flying saucers. He actually saw crescent-shaped objects that moved like a saucer would, if you skipped it across the water. The media got confused, reported that flying saucers were shown and it was flying saucers ever since. KING: What is that to you? CLANCY: What, the pictures? KING: Yeah, what is that? CLANCY: The pictures are somebody trying to create the illusion of flying saucers or somebody took a picture of some weird thing in the sky, happened to look like a flying saucer. It's certainly not evidence that there's something extraterrestrial in the sky. KING: Budd Hopkins, to you what does it mean? HOPKINS: Well, it's just one more piece of evidence that supports the physical reality of these objects. Here's the thing about the abduction phenomenon it connects with photographs like this. We have over and over again physical marks on people's bodies that are somehow inflicted upon them when they're abducted into craft. I've seen perhaps 100, what we call scoop marks. These are like the one in the center, a little harder to see that photograph. One down, I see at the bottom. This is -- the straight line cut on the woman's body. I've seen dozens and dozens of these. The doctor the next day asked if she had some kind of surgery. There's a scoop mark on the back of a leg. Here's a scoop mark on the front of the leg. If you assume that we have hundreds of these, straight line cut on the man's back. Either the straight line cut or the scoop mark as you can see the back of the knee. If you have these again and again and again, this is an Australian case - exactly the same kind of marks, exactly the same patterns, then you will, on top of that, the ground traces when UFO lands, it manages very often to, in a certain sense, bake the soil. Kills the grass. The soil is baked to a kind of rock-like consistency. We have had these rock-like things analyzed. KING: What does all that say to you? HOPKINS: Well, it says that there's - this is a physical thing. The idea that this is sleep paralysis, which is the big explanation du jour is as completely full of holes as Bush's rationale for invading Iraq. The first thing about the sleep paralysis is for the first 15 or 20 years of abduction research, not one single person was in the bedroom asleep. And, of course, the sleep paralysis theory doesn't even begin to explain those whatsoever. You have cases ... KING: Let me get a break and we'll come back and show more pictures and take phone calls as well. Don't go away. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (video clip): Here's a flying saucer in a rare close up portrait. But this one is no mystery. Unlike its high- flying cousins, this saucer is created in an army laboratory at Ft. Belvoir, Virginia. Physicist Noel Scott (ph), who discovered the effect, says it's the same phenomenon that has baffled scientists, hexed radar screens and led pilots on costly wild saucer chases. A mass of air under low pressure and electrically charged, as you see taking the shape of a glowing saucer. It's the answer to the year's number one scientific mystery, or is it? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TOM CRUISE, ACTOR: Feel that? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feel that? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I feel that. Is it the subway? train maybe? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Water main? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That can't be the water main. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's nothing else down there. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The water main doesn't run through here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there's something down there and it's moving. (END VIDEO CLIP) KING: One of the great scenes from many great scene in "War of the Worlds." In Denver, Colorado, is John Schuessler, former engineer for Boeing and NASA. In Boston, is Dr. Susan Clancy. By the way, the full title of her forthcoming book is "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped By Aliens." In Los Angeles, is Seth Shostak, senior astronomer for the SETI Institute. In New York, is Budd Hopkins, a top researcher in the UFO abduction phenomena. In Washington, Rob Swiatek, long-time investigator, board member for the Fund for UFO research. Also in Washington, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, active in UFO research, serves on the National Board of the Fund for UFO Research. We'll take a call and then, go to some more of these photos. We'll go to Newport News, Virginia. Hello. CALLER: Hi. Thank you, Mr. King, for accepting my phone call. My question is: Since there is intelligent life on the surface of Earth, does your guests think that there's possibly intelligent life in the deep of our oceans? KING: Is that a possibility? Anybody want to grab that? Seth: Unlikely. It's hard to, you know, do things like smelt metals, you know, you don't tend to have prehensile hands and things like that. It's a difficult environment for intelligence. And by the way, if there were intelligent life at the bottom of oceans, I think we would have found it by now. KING: But Hubert Humphrey said we should explore the oceans as much as we explore space. SHOSTAK: Should do, indeed. KING: Agreed? SHOSTAK: Absolutely. KING: There's a lot to be learned from the oceans. SHOSTAK: Much to be learned. I don't think there's intelligence down there. KING: Let's look at some more pictures from Rob Squiretech's (ph) collection. What's this in Santa Ana, Rob? SWIATEK: Well, I don't actually know what it is, Larry, but yes, it is one of a sequence of four photographs that were taken of seemingly - I'll put the words alleged and seemingly before the word object each time I say it, a large metallic disk that crossed the road in front of a highway inspector in 1965. He took three photographs of the disk itself. And one photograph later on, of a smoke ring that allegedly the disk left behind it when it departed. Again, these photos have passed muster with investigators. They've ruled out the hand of throwing model, as Susan seems so blithely describe as the source of all of these photographs. What is left is the puzzle and the enigma that we need to figure out. The person who took these, Mr. Heflin (ph), again, had a pretty unimpeachable character and no strings were found from which this object was dangled from in his truck, nor double exposure or anything like that. KING: How do you respond, Seth, to what you see? SHOSTAK: Well, look, one of the problems with these photos... KING: Come on, it is pretty amazing. SHOSTAK: Well, yes, but it could be, as Susan has suggested, just a hubcap thrown up and somebody takes pictures. There saying that's not... KING: Don't look like a hubcap. SHOSTAK: It doesn't look like a hubcap, but the point is that there's no point of reference. You don't know how far away that thing is. It could be an aircraft, right, that's very far away and only looks like it's up close. You need, you know, you need a couple of cameras. KING: Doesn't look like an aircraft. SWIATEK: And that's false. SHOSTAK: You know, there are all kinds of air crafts. I mean, look, it's not convincing evidence that there are alien craft in the sky. I'm sorry. There's something in the sky there. To say that it's alien craft, that's a big step. KING: Dr. Carter's (ph) reported seeing things. SHOSTAK: It was Venus. He's an unimpeachable source and it was actually extraterrestrial, but it was Venus. KING: It was Venus. Bruce Maccabee, what do you believe about these photos? MACCABEE: Well, these photos have been studies for many, many years, since the time they were taken in '65, I think it was. And they have, as Bob pointed out, passed muster over and over and over again. Mr. - the photographer himself, was - nobody ever managed to prove that he would be a person likely to make any sort of hoax. These things are either the real thing or a hoax. I mean, it's really an unexplained object or hoax. There's no halfway point. In my opinion, having studied what these other people have done and my own investigation of the photos themselves indicate that this is a real object and there is a possibility of estimating, let's say, distance and size based on the atmospheric effects on the photo - on the object itself, indicating how bright it is as a function of distance. It's a bit technical, but it does suggest that the object was probably within a few thousand feet of the camera. KING: Dallas, Texas. Hello. CALLER: Hi. I'm just wondering if these marks or scoopings you guys claim were caused by aliens during abductions, is there any other possible scientific explanation that could possibly explain their origin? KING: John? SCHUESSLER: You wanted me? I didn't understand the question. KING: All right, we'll start with John and then Bud. Is there another scientific explanation for this? SCHUESSLER: Well, it's either happening or it isn't happening. KING: Right. SCHUESSLER: And the people have passed psychological exams, they've passed medical exams, lie detector tests. All of these things show that they really believed this has happened to them. Now, again, you're back to belief there. But the accumulated evidence of lots and lots and lots of these starts to give you patterns and patterns of information that - different ones from different places don't know. And that hidden information, is what we use, in many times, to put together cases that have like- characteristics and there's no way that they could have copied each other. KING: Susan, what do you make of the body marks? CLANCY: I would say that strange marks on the body are very common and I think there's possibly a litany of other more- probable explanations for why you have scoop marks or weird moles. And as an example, one of my subjects was an 18-year-old construction worker who woke up and found strange patterns of marks on his back and concluded it was aliens. And when we asked him, isn't it more likely you started at the construction site and it was falling construction pieces, he said possible. But I feel like it was aliens and that's what I believe. So, for these people, that's their explanation. KING: Let me get a break and we'll - I... We'll get - you're not saying they're lying, they believe it? CLANCY: No, I think they believe it. Absolutely. KING: We'll take a break and be back with more phone calls, more pictures as well. Don't go away. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't look at that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the beginning of the process by which we read the brain for the finitely-indexed memory bank. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What have you done with my father? UNIDENTIFIED MALE; We will return him to you eventually and the police officer, too. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": What was in the skies over Mexico in March? Members of the Mexican Air Force think they could be UFOs. Pilots taped 11 unidentified plying objects over southern parts of the country near the Gulf of Mexico. Only three of the objects showed up on RADAR and members of the plane's crew say it seemed as if the bright lights were responding to them. (END VIDEO CLIP) KING: That was a Wolf Blitzer report on CNN. John Shuster (sic), what do you make of it? SCHUESSLER: Well, that was an excellent report. And it kind of thrilled us all, because we had an air interdiction aircraft that had forward looking infrared radar that was picking up heat images of something. And the analysis of that has stood the test of time. Again, Dr. Maccabee had done a through analysis, and found - I believe he should speak to this, but one of the objects was obviously what we consider an unconventional flying object. some of the others were something else. KING: Doctor Maccabee, what are we looking at? MACCABEE: Well, after doing an extensive study of the videotape that I was sent by the - sent by the Mexican Air Force, I concluded that some of these objects were actually lights, most likely to be lights on the ground. But on the other hand, this whole event started when the surveillance aircraft flying over the Yucatan peninsula picked up a radar target that got within two miles, and tracked it, followed it for ten miles, was not able to see anything associated with the radar target, either visually or with a FLIR, the forward-looking infrared. And that by itself is unusual. I would consider that to be what we call a radar unidentified flying object, because it was a radar target. These other lights that you see, some of them are probably lights on the ground. There may be some UFO lights mixed in. But until the Mexican Air Force actually does some experiments that I recommended, we wouldn't be able to tell for certain. KING: To Johnson City, Tennessee, hello. CALLER: Hello. KING: Yes. CALLER: Hey, I'm sorry. I thought I got cut off. KING: No, you're on. Go ahead. CALLER: Okay, from Johnson city, Tennessee. KING: Go ahead. CALLER: Hey, Mr. King. My father was an MP at Ft Seal, Oklahoma in the early to mid '50s. He told his friends later on while he was there when he was out in the middle of nowhere that there were these incredible lights that used to come in close to the ground. And then they would go back off in the distance. And would come back in. And then just absolutely go off in the distance and disappear. And he subsequently got cancer, but when I was 14 he told me, he said, we are only a stack. There is so much more going on out there. KING: Dr. Clancy, how would you respond to that? CLANCY: I would respond - I think her father saw something. And I'm sure it was something compelling in the sky. But what that's called is that's an anecdotal report. And why it's interesting. it doesn't constitute any form of objective or scientific evidence. KING: Wouldn't you have - Seth, wouldn't you hope they're out there? SHOSTAK: Of course. In fact, I wouldn't do if kind of work I do which is to look for signals from these guys, if I didn't think they were out there. I do think there's a good chance. KING: By the way, if they allow cell phones on airplanes, will that screw you up? SHOSTAK: No. It will annoy me when I travel. KING: It won't affect you? SHOSTAK: No, telecommunications satellites are the problem. KING: Owensboro, Kentucky, hello. CALLER: Yes. Hi, Larry. Owensboro, Kentucky. I love your show. KING: Thank you. What's the question? CALLER: I just wanted to confirm that NASA does have a UFO research program. And, you know, if they didn't know for sure that there was things out there that maybe the Roswell incident did happen, why would they waste all their money and time on this UFO research program? KING: Yeah Rob, why are they doing it? Rob Swiatek. SWIATEK: Well, actually I don't know that. I don't know that the government has any official program looking into UFOs right now, NASA or classified government project of another agency. I'm not aware that NASA is officially or informally looking at UFOs at all. KING: Does anyone know if there's - no? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. KING: Seth, no? SHOSTEK: No. KING: There's no government money? SHOSTEK: Not that's visible to anybody. KING: The Russian government is looking at it? SHOSTEK: The Russian - various foreign governments have looked at the phenomenon. Look, the governments were very interested in the UFO phenomena in the beginning, because they thought this might be somebody else's military aircraft. They wanted to know what they were. When they decided it was a whole laundry list of phenomena that were very prosaic, they sort of dropped their investigation. KING: Because if they can fly straight up and down, if they can stop in midair, go at normal speeds they might travel on light, right? SHOSTEK: Yes. KING: There would be an experience unknown to us. SHOSTEK: Yes. But look, you know, 55 years after Columbus discovers America, the Indians were not in doubt. They were not having discussions about whether they were being visited by Europeans. I think if they were here, we would know it. KING: Susan? CLANCY: Can I say one thing, which is that I know for a fact that in 1969 the National Academy of Sciences sponsored a study of all the available evidence on UFOs. And what they concluded then was that the least likely explanation for unidentified flying objects is the hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitations by intelligent beings. So no one's denying that there are things in the sky that people are reporting seeing and we're not sure what they are. But there are, again, a litany of possible explanations for them. And the least likely is - was UFOs. I think that's saying a lot. KING: We'll hear the counter to that. Let me get a break. And get a counter to that right after this. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Midland, Texas, hello. CALLER: Hi. My question is for Mr. Schuessler. Did you ever live in the Midland-Odessa area Texas. And whether or not you did, are you aware of any credential and/or publicized sightings there in the '60s or '70s? SCHUESSLER: Yes, there were credible sightings in that area, but I'm not prepared to pull it right off the top of the head. We do have things on file from that. (INAUDIBLE) have hundreds of thousands of case on file, as do a lot of other organizations. KING: But you never lived there? SCHUESSLER: And I never lived there. I lived in the Houston area. KING: What's the story of Betty Cash and Vicky Landry? SCHUESSLER: Well, that was a very interesting case where two women and a small boy encountered a UFO in the east Texas, Bonnie Woods. The thing came down the road in front of them. The car got hot. The two women got out. They were eventually irradiated in some manner. And when the object flu away, it was chased by military helicopters. We did an extensive investigation on that. And worked with many doctoring around the country. The main doctor that worked with Betty for several years to keep her alive was Dr. Brian McClellan. He said that she had a typical radiation exposure case including the dermatitis, the hair loss, the GI tract problems, and all of the other things. She eventually lost her life as a result of this through anemia and being up on it. KING: Budd, why would the government - I know this is the charge by those who believe - why would the government hide the information from the public if they had it? Why? HOPKINS: Larry, if all a person could say is, my fellow Americans, they are here, they can outfly anything we have, they're abducting our men, women and children in an ongoing series of experiments, a project and so on. We don't know anything about it, ultimately. We don't know whether they are going to be friendly or not. We have no idea what this is leading to. There's nothing we can do about it. We'll let you know if we hear more about it Thank you and good night. Now, I always said I would rather be in the liquor business at that point, than the stock market. But the most important point here, Larry, is that the conversation I had years ago with the late Carl Sagan, we agreed that the UFO phenomenon was an extraordinary phenomenon. If you put together hundreds of pictures which have been analyzed very, very thoroughly, as we've seen all of the pilot, astronaut, and so on reports that John Schuessler has been talking about, the abduction accounts, the physical marks on people's bodies, which doctors have examined and describe as being the kind of scar you..- KING: Well, what did Carl say? HOPKINS: They look like they're the scars you get by a punch biopsy. We have no idea what it's for. But at any rate, we agreed that all of this together constitutes an extraordinary phenomenon and so, what I said to Dr. Sagan was: Shouldn't we be saying an extraordinary phenomenon demands an extraordinary investigation? We're not getting an investigation here. We're getting, unfortunately, lots of arm chair theorists, who sit away from the investigation process, who have actually never really gone out to examine the sight, the physical marks, whatever it is, to do any medical work. But who have very glib explanations of each little piece of evidence that's brought up. But the cumulation of this evidence is overwhelming. KING: I will confirm that, because I interviewed the late Dr. Sagan many times and he was, Seth, open to the possibility of it and to more investigation of it. SHOSTAK: I am as well. I am as well. But I think that it's a mistake - Budd is suggesting that the burden of proof is now outside the people who are making the claims and I don't think that, that's fair. If they're going to make the claim, they have to come with the good evidence. KING: We'll take a break and be back with more... HOPKINS: Well, I'm not saying... KING: Hold it. I'll be right back and pick right up on you, Budd. As we go to break, I interviewed a woman some years back who claimed to have been abducted. Watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TERRY MATTHEWS, CLAIMED ALIEN ABDUCTION: There have been abductions that I have felt as if I was going through a tunnel, almost shaped like a funnel. It's very fast. There's a lot of light. Sometimes it's a big black void. KING: Any method of travel, ship, anything? MATTHEWS: I do end up in a place where there are hallways and waiting rooms and examination rooms. KING: Are you spoken to? MATTHEWS: I understand and know what they're saying to me. I don't hear words. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Get another call. Pittsburgh, hello. Caller: Hi, Larry. I am trying - try on the as brief as I can. I had two experiences around 1967 in Pittsburgh, where I grew up. And the first experience was night around 9:00, 9:30 at night. My mother and I went out on the front porch. We were talking and we both - - I happened to look up and I was 16 at the time, and we saw this dark triangle in the sky. I mean, it was huge and it was just in the - it wasn't moving, there was no sound coming from it. We - I went out into the garage to look at it and it started moving towards the house and it went right over the top of our house back into a wooded area behind us. And I don't know if there was anything going on at that time in Pittsburgh, but when I tried to run and get my camera, it was too late. And the second experience I had maybe a week to two weeks later. As I was laying in my bed sleeping and something woke me up and I looked up at the window that was above my bed and it's about two stories off the ground and I saw these two figures looking at me through the window. And they were dressed with dark hats, very pale skin and they had dark coats on. KING: How do you know you weren't dreaming? Caller: Pardon me? KING: How do you know you weren't dreaming. Caller: Because - well let me finish and I'll explain that. KING: We don't have enough time. How do you know you weren't dreaming? Caller: I know I was awake because I panicked and when I finally could finally move, I ran into the other room. I was not sleeping. And... KING: Dr. Clancy, how do you explain it? CLANCY: I mean... KING: Are you saying she didn't see that triangular object? CLANCY: No, in fact, what she just said, the last thing she said, when I could finally move, which pretty much --I'd say that's an episode of sleep paralysis. It's very common. People wake up in the middle of the night. They're paralyzed for a few moments, up to a minute. And they have a tendency to see strange things in the room, et cetera. It's a very common, non pathological de-synchrony in sleep cycles and it scares people. KING: Rob Swiatek... Rob, what are crop circles? SWIATEK: I don't know what crop circles are, Larry. They're imprints in field in England. Some of them are a hoax. There's no doubt about that. The vast majority of them are very intricate designs and I'm not so sure we know how they are formed. I don't know that. It might not be hoaxers, but there doesn't appear to be any overt UFO connection here. We don't see UFOs in conjunction with crop circles very often. Extraordinarily rarely, actually. KING: Seth, what do you think? SHOSTAK: I find it remarkable to think that the aliens would come all this distance to carve graffiti in our wheat. KING: All right. How do you explain it then, otherwise? SHOSTAK: Most of them - they're all don at night and the usually on the weekends. KING: pranksters? SHOSTAK: Yes. It sounds to me, either that or the aliens have strange union rules. KING: Budd Hopkins, do you think we're going to ever have proof, proof in our lifetime? HOPKINS: Well, I never use the word proof. I use the term evidence. We have so much evidence that we can hardly handle it. We have to remember that in terms of proof that there's still something like 10 or 15 percent of the American public do not believe that the Holocaust occurred. It has not been proved to them. So, my point is, the evidence is so extensive and so complex. I've been doing this for 30 years and I'm talking about the medical evidence and even though Susan just mentioned sleep paralysis in this case, we have just hundreds and hundreds of abduction case where's people are driving cars. There may be three people. They all remember exactly the same thing. I was just dealing with a police sergeant who was abducted. His family, seven people, saw the craft coming at rooftop height in the middle of the afternoon over their picnic. And he was -- KING: Why. We're running out of time. HOPKINS: And he was - he had been abducted and returned. So... KING: Why don't they ever abduct Colin Powell. You know, abduct Seth Shostak. Why don't they take you? You come back on this show. If they took you, we're going to believe it. HOPKINS: May I answer that, Larry? KING: I'm only kidding, Budd. We're going to do another show on this. We've run out of time, but I know there are answers. We thank John Schuessler, Dr. Susan Clancy, Seth Shostak, Budd Hopkins, Rob Swiatek and Bruce Maccabee. Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, Bob Woodward will be with us live with your phone calls. His new book is out, all about Deep Throat. And now we turn things over to our own alien, the host of "NEWSNIGHT."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 14 Shostak - The Great UFO Debate From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:41:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:41:21 -0400 Subject: Shostak - The Great UFO Debate Source: Space.Com http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html 14 July 2005 The Great UFO Debate By Seth Shostak SETI Institute The good news is that polls continue to show that between one and two-thirds of the public thinks that extraterrestrial life exists. The weird news is that a similar fraction thinks that some of it is visiting Earth. Several recent television shows have soberly addressed the possibility that alien craft are violating our air space, occasionally touching down long enough to allow their crews to conduct bizarre (and, in most states, illegal) experiments on hapless citizens. While these shows tantalize viewers by suggesting that they are finally going to get to the bottom of the so-called "UFO debate", they never do. That bottom seems perennially out of reach. So what are the contentious issues here? First off, despite heated discussion by all concerned, let�s admit that interstellar travel doesn�t violate physics. It�s possible. After all, the Pioneer and Voyager probes are nearly three decades into an inadvertent interstellar journey right now. The kicker, of course, is that these craft will take 70,000 years to cover the distance to even the nearest stars (and they�re not aimed that way). With the physics we know, it�s extremely difficult to substantially, and safely, shorten that travel time. Sure, it might be theoretically possible to create wormholes or some other exotic facility for high-speed cosmic cruising; but that approach is entirely speculative. And it�s not really the point. The problem I have with the claim that strange craft are prowling our planet is not with the transportation mode, but with the evidence. I�ll worry about how they got here once I�m convinced that they�ve really made the scene. Well, have they? How good is the evidence? In the course of a recent TV broadcast in which I participated, guest experts who have long studied UFOs argued the case for their alien nature by showing photographs of putative saucers hovering at low altitudes. Some of these objects appeared as out-of-focus lights, while others resembled hubcap-shaped Frisbees caught in mid-trajectory. Since the former are perforce ambiguous, the latter commanded more of my attention. How can we know they�re NOT hubcaps, tossed into the air by a hoaxer with a camera? The reply from one expert: "these photographs pass muster." When quizzed on exactly which muster was mastered, the response was that "atmospheric effects give us a limit on the distance, and careful examination has ruled out photographic trickery." Well, the former is pretty chancy, and relies on some assumption about atmospheric conditions (was it a smoggy day in Los Angeles?), and the latter proves nothing. A real shot of an airborne hubcap would, after all, be free of photographic trickery. Additional evidence that is endlessly cited is "expert testimony." Pilots, astronauts, and others with experienced eyes and impressive credentials have all claimed to see odd craft in the skies. It�s safe to say that these witnesses have seen something. But just because you don�t recognize an aerial phenomenon doesn�t mean that it�s an extraterrestrial visitor. That requires additional evidence that, so far, seems to be as unconvincing as the trickery-free saucer snaps. What about those folks who have experienced alien beings first- hand? Abduction stories are an entirely separate field of study and one which I won�t address here, although I must confess that it�s intriguing to see photos of scoop marks on the flesh of human subjects, coupled with the claim that these minor disfigurements are due to alien malfeasance. But even aside from the puzzling question of why beings from distant suns would come to Earth to melon-ball the locals, this evidence is, once again, ambiguous. The scoops might be due to aliens, and then again, they could be the consequence of spousal abuse or many other causes. When push came to shove, and when pressed as to whether there�s real proof of extraterrestrial visitation, the experts on this show backed off by saying that "well, we don�t know where they come from. But something is definitely going on." The latter statement is hardly controversial. The former is merely goofy. If the saucers and scoopers are not from outer space, where, exactly, are they from? Belgium? The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants. Confronted with this, the UFO experts usually take refuge in two possible explanations: * The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government. While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (tantamount to saying "we can�t show you good evidence because we haven�t got it"), and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form. * Scientists have simply refused to look carefully at this phenomenon. In other words, the scientists should blame themselves for the fact that the visitation hypothesis has failed to sway them. Not only is this unfair, it�s misguided. Sure, rather few researchers have themselves gone into the field to sift through the stories, the videos, and the odd photos that comprise the evidence for alien presence. But they don�t have to. This complaint is akin to telling movie critics that films would be better if only they would pitch in and get behind the camera. But critics can compose excellent and accurate evaluations of a movie without being participants in the business of making films. The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious. If there are investigators who are convinced that craft from other worlds are buzzing ours, then they should present the absolute best evidence they have, and not resort to explanations that appeal to conspiratorial cover- ups or the failure of others to be open to the idea. The UFO advocates are not asking us to believe something either trivial
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Shostak Responds To Ufologists From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:04:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:49:53 -0400 Subject: Shostak Responds To Ufologists Seth Shostak was one of six on the Larry King Live show Wed. July 6. There he apparently felt "challenged" by the comments of Bruce Maccabee, Robert Swiatek,Budd Hopkins and John Scheussler. He has now issued his own challenge. http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:14:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:09:38 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? - Smith >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:07:34 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:35:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:46 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: NASA Space Protection UFOs? >>>The inflatable Loony Balloony space protection umbrella :-) >>>Don't miss reading this it will make your hair stand on >>>end; >>>The construction may later be mistaken for UFO clusters >>>especially if used in near space. >>Why do you think it is a "loony" idea? >I remember an old ZX Spectrum Game called 'Loony Balloonies' and >the settup reminded me somewhat of it. Missed that game. >>Do you think space travel is a "loony" idea? >Space travel would be a good idea and of the utmost necessity if >planet Earth looked as if it was going 'Bang'. Yeah, but by that time it would probably be too late. Sadly, we need to build the infrastructure slowly to be ready for Bang-Day. >>The problem with human space travel is that >>they are getting bombarded with radiation all the time. >No. The problem is that the space radiation kills them? Yes, being killed is a bother and a "problem" for most. But the problem is that radiation degrades human performance to complete the mission in space (without killing them). Much like a wounded soldier is a greater burden than a dead one to the rest of the unit. Also, if they want to have children after space travel, then radiation doesn't help matters. >>But I do like your quip on "making your hair stand on end", >>pretty funny! >There are young folk reading these posts some of whom need a >little humor along with the seriousness of the group and 'hell' >the thing looks loony to me. >Its also very good to see that ET subspecies 001002 of zeus has >a humor filter fully operational :-) Yeah, it _became_ operational, but it DID take me a while to get
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Xenogenesis From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:10:30 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:23:45 -0400 Subject: Xenogenesis In Alien Chic: Posthumanism And The Other Within, by Neil Badmington, Routledge, ISBN: 0-415-31023-7, he mentions a SF trilogy written by Octavia Butler in 1987 as one of the first to include the alien-hybrid theme. As I always try to judge by myself, I began looking for this opus. Recently, I finally found a Spanish translation. Once again, a total hit. You can find in it all the episodes proposed by Bullard (up to the theophany, if you change the religious component to a sexual one) and also all kind of details (abductee's training for post-apocaliptic scenario, hybrids, etc.). I do not want to restart the debate about if the writer was a possible "silent abductee", or if those details and coincidences are just chance occurrences, selective detection on my part, or are counterbalanced by the diferences (such us tentacular aliens, etc.). I would like is to ask some of the abductees who read this post, to obtain a copy of the novels (specially the first one - Dawn - read it, and send me their comments, either via the List or privately, about the narrative.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Shostak Responds To Ufologists - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:32:45 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:42:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Shostak Responds To Ufologists - Deardorff >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:04:34 -0400 >Subject: Shostak Responds To Ufologists >Seth Shostak was one of six on the Larry King Live show Wed. July 6. >There he apparently felt "challenged" by the comments of Bruce >Maccabee, Robert Swiatek,Budd Hopkins and John Scheussler. >He has now issued his own challenge. >http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html >An immediate response to his challenge, which he should study as >the first part of his "ufo education" is: >http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' - From: Dennis Balthaser <truthskr.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:12:49 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:32:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' - >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:48:24 EDT >Subject: Re>Timing Is Everything Regarding 'Roswell' >>Source: Frank Warren's Blog >>http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ >>July 01, 2005 >>Is Timing Everything As Related to the Roswell Incident? >>By >>Dennis Balthaser >>7-1-05 >>www.truthseekeratroswell.com <snip> >>I am well familiar with the need for confidentiality when it >>comes to this research. I learned many years ago from Stanton >>Friedman that there are situations where the only way to obtain >>information, is to guarantee the persons confidentiality. Such >>was the case for me, several years ago when researcher Wendy >>Connors and I interviewed a key Roswell witness for three and a >>half hours on video tape, and have since copyrighted the >>information for posterity. We will eventually go public with the >>information, at a time that is appropriate for Ms. Connors and >>I, and do not plan on using unnamed witnesses or vague >>information. What we will present is what was recorded on >>videotape. >Listers, >As I recall, that particular witness was Walter Haut. I also >seem to recall that this created a small firestorm at the time >because Walter hadn't shared "all" the information he knew with >the various Roswell researchers. I also seem to recall that he >actually saw the bodies and some other morsels or so I >understood. Apparently the agreement was that the video and or >transcript could not be released until after his death, in the >mean time nobody is able to comment on this one way or the other >because of said agreement. >Bottom line, if that was the agreement, then fine with me. Robert and List members Your comments about the Roswell witness Wendy Connors and I interviewed a few years ago are appreciated. Since the copyright of the interview is held by Wendy and I, we alone will decide when the information will be made public. Any comments pertaining to the contents of the interview are strictly speculation until the video is released, and Wendy and I tried to obtain information about the witness in an oral history of him, that will be informative and deal with the witness as a person, in addition to his knowledge of the Roswell Incident. Personally I have a lot of respect for this witness and do not feel at this point in his life that he needs to be inundated by the debunkers and critics that appear to eager to discredit something they haven't seen or heard yet. There will be plenty of time for that after we release the video. Circumstances and individuals close to the witness may have a bearing on when we decide to release the information, but rest assured we have the 'copyrighted information' in it's original form as recorded and will release it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:54:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:34:59 -0400 Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee The LKL transcript reads as follows: >KING: Now we'll turn to Bruce Maccabee, and it is a fascinating >subject No doubt about that. Bruce, what got you involved in >things up there? >BRUCE MACCABEE, UFO RESEARCHER: Yeah, well, >back in the '50s an '60s when there were lots of sightings <snip> >And at that time I decided that if there was really something >there where the rubber meets the road is in the interviews with >the actual witnesses that claim things. So I went with a group >known then as Night Cap, and we interviewed some people that >would have various types of sightings and it turned out they >weren't nuts and so I decided there might be really something >going on. And I began a historical research and further case >investigation and all of them concluded that there is really >something flying around. Although I may have sometimes had a "Night Cap", I'm sure that most readers of this List would realize that the name of the UFO group active at the time was NICAP (National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena). NICAP had local subcommittees in numerous cities throughout the USA, one of which was Washington, DC. I was a member of the DC subcommittee which investigated several
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:54:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:37:02 -0400 Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From the LKL transcript: >SWIATEK: Larry, McMinnville, Oregon, was a series of two UFO >photographs. You are looking at, I believe, photograph two t>here. That is photograph number one. These photos have passed >the muster over many years of study of many experts, including >Dr. Maccabee here. Now the thing I wanted to qualify about UFO >photographs is that in an of themselves they don't prove we're >dealing with ETs. Any photograph can be hoaxed. The good thing >about photographs like McMinnville is that all the obvious >explanation force how the photographs might have been hoaxed or >what these photographs show have been ruled out. I.e: a model >suspended from the wires. It's certainly not an unusual cloud. >It's not something that the witnesses, through in front of them >like a Frisbee and photographed. Extensive research by private >sector scientists like Dr. Maccabee and by the University of >Colorado study back in the '60s, couldn't explain these >sightings and they're representative of what people see. I think >that's the core of what I'm saying. (Note 1: Wm. Hartmann of the Condon Study ruled out the rotating frisby in 1968.) >KING: Susan, how do you react when you look at that? >CLANCY: How I react is I look at that and I think, well, that >could have been somebody throwing a disk in the sky. And taking >a picture of it. But that's an aside. I find interesting about >the pictures is they're flying saucers. And I want to remind the >viewers that flying saucers were supposedly first seen by >Kenneth Arnold in 1947, but if you actually look at the >transcripts of what he said he saw, he did not see flying >saucers. He actually saw crescent-shaped objects that moved like >a saucer would, if you skipped it across the water. The media >got confused, reported that flying saucers were shown and it was >flying saucers ever since. KING: What is that to you? >CLANCY: What, the pictures? >KING: Yeah, what is that? >CLANCY: The pictures are somebody trying to create the illusion >of flying saucers or somebody took a picture of some weird thing >in the sky, happened to look like a flying saucer. It's >certainly not evidence that there's something extraterrestrial >in the sky. Obviously she knew/knows nothing about these pictures, as her "certainly not evidence" shows. The Trent photos from McMinnville are either a hoax or the real thing and the liklihood of the Trents creating a hoax is so small
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:55:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:40:34 -0400 Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From the transcript of the LKL show July 6: (They were showing the Mexico FLIR video ofr March 5, 2004) >KING: Doctor Maccabee, what are we looking at? >MACCABEE: Well, after doing an extensive study of the videotape >that I was sent by the - sent by the Mexican Air Force, I >concluded that some of these objects were actually lights, most >likely to be lights on the ground. >But on the other hand, this whole event started when the >surveillance aircraft flying over the Yucatan peninsula picked >up a radar target that got within two miles, and tracked it, >followed it for ten miles, was not able to see anything >associated with the radar target, either visually or with a >FLIR, the forward-looking infrared. Actually the airplane tracked the target on radar for about ten *minutes,* but, in the heat of the moment my brain became temporarily (I hope) scrambled and the word "miles" came out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Xenogenesis - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:22:36 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:42:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Xenogenesis - Hall >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:10:30 +0200 >Subject: Xenogenesis >In Alien Chic: Posthumanism And The Other Within, by Neil >Badmington, Routledge, ISBN: 0-415-31023-7, he mentions a SF >trilogy written by Octavia Butler in 1987 as one of the first to >include the alien-hybrid theme. >As I always try to judge by myself, I began looking for this >opus. Recently, I finally found a Spanish translation. >Once again, a total hit. You can find in it all the episodes >proposed by Bullard (up to the theophany, if you change the >religious component to a sexual one) and also all kind of >details (abductee's training for post-apocaliptic scenario, >hybrids, etc.). >I do not want to restart the debate about if the writer was a >possible "silent abductee", or if those details and coincidences >are just chance occurrences, selective detection on my part, or >are counterbalanced by the diferences (such us tentacular >aliens, etc.). >I would like is to ask some of the abductees who read this post, >to obtain a copy of the novels (specially the first one - Dawn - >read it, and send me their comments, either via the List or >privately, about the narrative. Luis, Eddie Bullard's study was published in 1987. Big coincidence! Also his general findings had been discussed at various conferences before that. No mystery here, and certainly no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Shostak Responds To Ufologists - Davenport From: Peter Davenport - NUFORC <director.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:03:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:03:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Shostak Responds To Ufologists - Davenport >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul, >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:32:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: Shostak Responds To Ufologists >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:04:34 -0400 >>Subject: Shostak Responds To Ufologists >>Seth Shostak was one of six on the Larry King Live show Wed. July 6. >>There he apparently felt "challenged" by the comments of Bruce >>Maccabee, Robert Swiatek,Budd Hopkins and John Scheussler. >>He has now issued his own challenge. >>http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html >>An immediate response to his challenge, which he should study as >>the first part of his "ufo education" is: >>http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html >Your "prosaic" website article designed for Klass indeed works >for Shostak just as well. In the article, you need to correct: >"but which are are..." Jim Jim, Bruce... and Seth, et al: The debate of whether these things we call "UFO's" exist, or not, is easily resolved through the application of "passive" radar, which should detect their presence with much greater reliability than does conventional radar. I have attempted to bring this fact to the attention of the UFO community for over ten years now, and have presented the idea to several billionaires, hoping that they might consider funding the relatively inexpensive construction of such a system. The fact that "passive" radar is so much more effective than current radar technology is witnessed by the fact that most major governments are engaged in designing and constructing such systems for discrete defense and intelligence applications. I continue to seek funding, but most people I have approached seem more interested in hot cars and classic aircraft, rock and roll museums, hotel rooms in space, antenna fields, etc., than they are in resolving this debate for a few hundreds of thousands of dollars. With a bit of judicious application of time and money, we can end the issue of whether UFO's are real, or not. If we ufologists are correct, the objects should show up clearly, and frequently, on a "passive" radar system. I would direct anyone who is interested in knowing more about my proposal to the paper I wrote for the MUFON symposium last year. It is posted on the NUFORC site, together with links to other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Shostak - The Great UFO Debate 'Debate' From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:08:41 -0400 Subject: Shostak - The Great UFO Debate 'Debate' >Source: Space.Com >http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html >14 July 2005 >The Great UFO Debate >By Seth Shostak >SETI Institute DS: Doctor Shostak Lehm: Alfred Lehmberg __________________________ DS: The good news is that polls continue to show that between one and two-thirds of the public thinks that extraterrestrial life exists. The weird news is that a similar fraction thinks that some of it is visiting Earth. Lehm: There is "good news," "news," and then "bad news." How does the reader interpret the category our Dr. Shostak uses to categorize the "weird" kind? If that's not plain now, it will be as the essay weaves its very predictable path as defined by the confines of D. Shostak's quest for continued funding. Moreover, Dr. Shostak will provide ample proof of political mastery of this path as he grind's the specious axe of his denialist's agenda, in my opinion. DS: Several recent television shows have soberly addressed the possibility that alien craft are violating our air space, occasionally touching down long enough to allow their crews to conduct bizarre (and, in most states, illegal) experiments on hapless citizens. While these shows tantalize viewers by suggesting that they are finally going to get to the bottom of the so-called "UFO debate", they never do. That bottom seems perennially out of reach. Lehm: Why would that _be_... one wonders! The single most important event to impose itself on humankind since the Arrival of Buddha, the Oath of Krishna, the Resurrection of Christ, and the Ascension of Mohammed... ...combined... ..._demands_ a diligent search for the "bottom..." ...even if it _is_ "perennially out of reach"! Think! That's a concise description of all humanity has _ever_ done! That is to say, keep inexplicably reaching for the perennially out of reach! It's what we're supposed to do! Lehm: ...Yet that search is not forthcoming... and this is _despite_ the intense interest of an astounding two thirds of the population to which Shostak, himself, admits! How does one account for a stunning imbalance sufficient to change whole constitutions of super-power nations, while that same population is routinely denied information having such a profound effect on the quality of their very lives? Shostack baffles himself with convenient peripheral issues content with his role as "learned mainstream front-man," "pelicanist shill, and "landed denialist"... IMO, and is only an intimation of the rationality he is so practiced at portraying in all media... _all_ media. DS: So what are the contentious issues here? Lehm: What indeed _are_ these issues, and can Dr. Shostak be counted upon to consider them intelligently, bravely, selflessly, and creatively in turn, employing a manner that is as non-partisan as it is tolerant or as expansive as it is diligent? We shall see. DS: First off, despite heated discussion by all concerned, let's admit that interstellar travel doesn't violate physics. It's possible. After all, the Pioneer and Voyager probes are nearly three decades into an inadvertent interstellar journey right now. Lehm: ...At specific locations we can't account for, presently? DS: The kicker, of course, is that these craft will take 70,000 years to cover the distance to even the nearest stars (and they're not aimed that way). With the physics we know, it's extremely difficult to substantially, and safely, shorten that travel time. Lehm: Not so, I believe. Stanton Friedman, who regularly dusts (to be kind) Dr. Shostak in public debate (with DS the first to get snippy and defensive in same, imo), is _quite_ clear that the mere imposition of our will to stop our egregious tribal warfare is _all_ that is necessary in a successful reach to the stars... and all of this in a bubble of space only 70 or 80 light-years in radius. Having actually worked on the very successful hardware in question trumps a career of insipiently looking for smoke signals from intelligences "too far away to get here", and that readily accepted only because _we_ can't "suss out" how to travel _there_. Good lord... the arrogance. No... with high tech "wagon trains" in space... we _could_ get there from here. Truly, "there" is a lot closer than we are lead to believe by Dr. Shostak's self-involved, self-limiting, and so self-defeating system. DS: Sure, it might be theoretically possible to create wormholes or some other exotic facility for high-speed cosmic cruising; but that approach is entirely speculative. Lehm: Uh, huh... and there was absolutely _no_ need to leap all the way out to here! And it should be pointed out that Dr. Shostak, himself, was the one to take the leap... to what end? To make the reader take that presumptive breath for the suggested smirky giggle? To appeal to the Doctor's conjectured absurd for the purposes of same? To inject 'unlikelihood' deeply into the probable 'likelihood' so as to distract from that likelihood? Be that as it may? Shostak was the one to make the leap, and hangs momentarily (if a little foolishly) in open air. DS: And it's not really the point. The problem I have with the claim that strange craft are prowling our planet is not with the transportation mode, but with the evidence. Lehm: An extra-ordinary claim (especially one made with the observation of quality instruments both mechanical and multiple witnessed) _deserves_ an investigation that is equally extraordinary, one would think, as Budd Hopkins points out. This is forgetting that the body of evidence is six levels deep, cuts all the way across a wide social strata, and is thousands of years long. Reflex denial of all this as a "lack of evidence" is just ludicrous. DS: I'll worry about how they got here once I'm convinced that they've really made the scene. Lehm: There's the rub, folks. Did you catch it? What would it indeed take for Dr. Shostak to be convinced that "...they've really made the scene"? We all know that Dr. Shostak busily touts the specious Saganic rubric that "...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..." but _that_ shopworn rubric is too often used as a "think cloak" to "preclude progressive thinking," actually, and provides for a "receding evidentiary horizon" in the same way one might put the requirements for evidence finally accepted at the end of a skepti-bunkers two- color rainbow (Van Gemert). That is to say that no evidence would _ever_ be good enough for the Doctor. That's a dodge of a coward, frankly. Again - what would it take to convince the Doctor, given the already abundant preponderance of same? DS: Well, have they? Lehm: Quite. The Drake's equation says they _are_. Fermi's paradox says they _will_. Evidentiary Ufology say they _have_. If this were baseball Doctor Shostak would already be out. DS: How good is the evidence? Lehm: Better than can be expected in a climate of systemic denialism, institutional intransigence, and scientific cowardice... that's for sure. DS: In the course of a recent TV broadcast in which I participated... Lehm: Where Doctor Shostak performed glibly but dissemblingly and his uninformed wingman Dr. Susan Clancy performed... well... not at all. DS: ...guest experts who have long studied UFOs argued the case for their alien nature by showing photographs of putative saucers hovering at low altitudes. Some of these objects appeared as out-of-focus lights, while others resembled hubcap- shaped Frisbees caught in mid-trajectory. Lehm: Dr. Shostak proposes this like he was some kind of expert in photographic analysis. He is not. He proclaims the preceding like he was an optical physicist. He is not. The doctor announces the foregoing like he had a reputation for looking at both sides of the issue without cant, bias, or forgone conclusion. He has no such reputation. I also add, as I wrote before, that the ufological proponents came out way ahead in the presentation alluded to by Dr. Shostak... explained by the lack of substance in Dr. Shostak's lugubrious but negativist's pleading and the abject ignorance of Dr. Susan Clancy... DS: Since the former are perforce ambiguous, the latter commanded more of my attention. How can we know they're NOT hubcaps, tossed into the air by a hoaxer with a camera? The reply from one expert: "these photographs pass muster." When quizzed on exactly which muster was mastered, the response was that "atmospheric effects give us a limit on the distance, and careful examination has ruled out photographic trickery." Well, the former is pretty chancy, and relies on some assumption about atmospheric conditions (was it a smoggy day in Los Angeles?), and the latter proves nothing. A real shot of an airborne hubcap would, after all, be free of photographic trickery. Lehm: Dr. Shostak is ever a master of the exhorted slight of hand, and this verbal juggle of assumptive gymnastics is a near 'delight' to behold... you just can't but it in the bank. Dr. Shostak only continued to pretend an expertise he does not have. There was no time for completely honorable men like Mr. Swiatec and Dr. Maccabee, actual experts mind you, to make clear the requirements for "passing muster" in a few minutes of TV time with six persons on the panel. Shostak might just as well have asked for a detailed description of "Cell Respiration" or "Photosynthesis" each requiring a full hour of presentation time with slides and overheads... to begin to get an idea of what constitutes "muster passing". It remains that the respected _experts_ say they are _not_ thrown objects, and the conflicted or uninformed pretenders say they _are_... where does the _smart_ money go, reader? DS: Additional evidence that is endlessly cited is "expert testimony." Pilots, astronauts, and others with experienced eyes and impressive credentials have all claimed to see odd craft in the skies. It's safe to say that these witnesses have seen something. But just because you don't recognize an aerial phenomenon doesn't mean that it's an extraterrestrial visitor. That requires additional evidence that, so far, seems to be as unconvincing as the trickery-free saucer snaps. Lehm: Wasn't that lovely? "...trickery-free saucer snaps..." Rolls right off the tongue in a delightful little dance, doesn't it? It remains that Dr. Shostak is the canted amateur in the exchange, and that poetic explication and a practiced public persona is no guarantee of correctness... ...unless _I'm_ the one doing it, reader. Lol! Lehm: It also remains that experienced, talented, intelligent, educated, and honorable people perceive something in their skies transcending the highly strange and that these things appear as if they are under _intelligent_ control. The reader is best advised to fix on that which Shostak _admits_ as an intellectual loss-leader, quality testimony, and well away from his "trickery-free saucer snaps," which are not quality testimony, imo. DS: What about those folks who have experienced alien beings first-hand? Lehm: ...Yes, Sir... the many, many thousands of them, ignored by society, marginalized by their mal-instructed peers, and punished for same by a plethora of closed institutions more interested in their own status quo than the individual human beings they were created to serve? What about them indeed? DS: Abduction stories are an entirely separate field of study and one which I won't address here, although I must confess that it's intriguing to see photos of scoop marks on the flesh of human subjects, coupled with the claim that these minor disfigurements are due to alien malfeasance. Lehm: ..."intriguing..."? These persons are not lab-rats, Sir. You would be their betrayer, it seems, as the gleeful pitchman for the hijacked and denying mainstream you gladly represent, denying them. DS: But even aside from the puzzling question of why beings from distant suns would come to Earth to melon-ball the locals, this evidence is, once again, ambiguous. The scoops might be due to aliens, and then again, they could be the consequence of spousal abuse or many other causes. Lehm: ...Anything but that which raises the hair on the back of _your_ neck, good Doctor... ..."melon-ball," indeed. Seems what the good Doctor lacks in ufological competence is not made up in compassion for people enduring something truly terrifying... a terror made worse by a culture that punishes them for enduring it... ..."spousal abuse," indeed. How about "sleep paralysis"? DS: When push came to shove, and when pressed as to whether there's real proof of extraterrestrial visitation, the experts on this show backed off by saying that "well, we don't know where they come from. But something is definitely going on." The latter statement is hardly controversial. The former is merely goofy. If the saucers and scoopers are not from outer space, where, exactly, are they from? Belgium? Lehm: The doctor must be merely joking, no one could be walking around in this much oxygen debit and still survive. Does Doctor Shostak want to know what goofy _really_ is? Goofy is reflexively insipient denial of six levels of evidence that is very wide, exceptionally long, and astoundingly deep. Goofy is depending on clever turns of phase and artful exposition appealing to an audiences lowest common denominator. Goofy is spending too much money listening for alien smoke signals from around distant stars. Goofy is relying on discredited homocentricism to short-circuit natural curiosity and appropriate humility. Goofy is pretending to be an expert when you are not. Goofy is expecting the aforementioned audience to forget that Dr. Shostak has a big hungry dog in this fight over the UFO question... so his sincerity is suspect. Lehm: There is _indeed_ "something" going on. It is clear that we are not getting forthcoming information on it from suspect agencies, un-elected governments, or closed institutions. Moreover, the curiosity that Dr. Shostak pretends to champion is not remotely served by his back-stepping obstinacy and scientistic (sic) intransigence. Not remotely. DS: The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Lehm: ...Scientists intimidated by the jealous system, threatened by an imposed and belligerent giggle factor, and bullied by presupposing, conflicted, purposely uninformed, and landed peers... ...not unlike Dr. Shostak? DS: Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants. Lehm: See immediately above... DS: Confronted with this, the UFO experts usually take refuge in two possible explanations: Lehm: ...Ummmmno. The unctuous fallacy of "Either / Or" ...even leavened with a "usually" does nothing to provide the barriers to progressive thinking on this issue that the Doctor would hope to achieve. It remains: his Silly Exercise to Investigate is not safe because it is a ludicrous exercise... Forgetting UFOs will not likely be explained in just two explanations. DS: The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government. Lehm: Right. Governments _have_ shown a remarkable ability to be transparent and appropriately forthcoming regarding paradigm changing occurrences. Not! DS: While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (tantamount to saying "we can't show you good evidence because we haven't got it"), and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Lehm: Right! Egregious truths about the criminality of government and its failure to adequately represent _don't_ come to light every freaking day! Besides, Dr. Shostak's airy dismissal of likely behavior from the aforementioned governments does not make that benevolent government so... this is forgetting the good doctor has a dog in the fight, remember. DS: Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form. Lehm: Which is nothing more than a written smirk wrapped in a sneer and so discountable on its face. It remains that procedures have been established in professional manuals for UFO avoidance and retrieval, and that it is no stretch to suppose that there must be more detailed but classified publications for same, elsewhere. DS: Scientists have simply refused to look carefully at this phenomenon. Lehm: ...Asked and answered twice above... DS: In other words, the scientists should blame themselves for the fact that the visitation hypothesis has failed to sway them. Lehm: No... Let us first lay the blame at Dr. Shostak's feet. As a celebrant of the mainstream prosaic unless a billion light years away... and only to prop up his own insipient enterprise... the blame can be laid there with some confidence, I should think. DS: Not only is this unfair, it's misguided. Lehm: Now there's a coal colored pot calling polished stainless steel kettle black! DS: Sure, rather few researchers have themselves gone into the field to sift through the stories, the videos, and the odd photos that comprise the evidence for alien presence. Lehm: And many of them come back convinced! Consider Hynek, Vallee, and McDonald. These were real scientists wading in as confirmed skeptics and walking away not so sure, at a minimum! DS: But they don't have to. Lehm: Yes! Yes, they do! ...If they expect to continue to be called scientists. Perhaps Doctor Shostak has forgotten what being a real scientist must be like! DS: This complaint is akin to telling movie critics that films would be better if only they would pitch in and get behind the camera. Lehm: One word: Nonsense! Dr. Shostak's analogy is akin to the tedious canard of comparing apples to oranges! Movie critics would write better critiques if they ACTUALLY SAW THE FILM! DS: But critics can compose excellent and accurate evaluations of a movie without being participants in the business of making films. Lehm: ...But they compose a steaming pile of bupkis if they haven't seen (or don't want to see) the FILM! DS: The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious. Lehm: There is more going on in the issue than _this_ tiresome canard, that's for sure. A preponderance of evidence growing larger as we speak shall not be forever discounted even as the "flying saucer gap" between competing countries widens. Perhaps Dr, Shostak is unaware of this widening gap. Moreover, there is a multitude of reasons that go completely unexplored with regard to _exactly_ why the aforementioned scientists would find the data "dubious" to begin with. DS: If there are investigators who are convinced that craft from other worlds are buzzing ours, then they should present the absolute best evidence they have, and not resort to explanations that appeal to conspiratorial cover-ups or the failure of others to be open to the idea. Lehm: A good scientist must follow the data, Dr. Shostak seems to have forgotten, and if the data leads to conspiracy... well what waddles and quacks _might_ be a duck! DS: The UFO advocates are not asking us to believe something either trivial or peripheral, for after all, there could hardly be any discovery more dramatic or important than visitors from other worlds. If we could prove that the aliens are here, I would be as awestruck as anyone, however, I await a compelling Exhibit A. Lehm: I suspect that there is no amount of compelling exhibit "A" sufficient enough, imo, to convince Dr. Shostak... because he has too much time and effort tied into a paradigm that pays the bills and keeps him more than merely comfortable. Outside of that, he's a practiced tether on the leg of humankind's rising and advancing spirit. Nothing more. This writer found his written position as fatuous as his televised one, and twice as intellectually constipated...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:31:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:11:42 -0400 Subject: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? The revival of political activism specifically targeting a so- called government UFO cover-up is something I do not now support. Not only do I think we do not know significantly much about this cover-up, I think no one really knows significantly much about the who, what, where, when, how and why of UFOs. (Years ago I presumed to know alot, but not now.) This is obviously a change of position for me, having been a co- founder of the former effort called "Operation Right To Know". The newly formed Exopolitics Institute includes a political activist agenda. In my opinion, its founder has fashioned (in his own mind) a complex picture of both UFOs and the 'UFO government cover-up'. The way I see it, he has created something of a Fantasy Island because he uses quite a few discredited whistleblowers and contactees to form his picture of what is going on. Operating on a foundation like this would not seem likely to be conducive to effective political action, public education, or research. A more relevant and appropriate goal for political action, IMO,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Magonia Supplement No. 57 From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:39:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:12:41 -0400 Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 57 The main item in Magonia Supplement No. 57 is an article by Martin Kottmeyer in which he argues that the statistics do not support the theory that UFO flaps are generated by the release of films about UFOs and alien invasions. The html edition is now available at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 "Life Is Probably Common In The Universe" From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:33:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:34:19 -0400 Subject: "Life Is Probably Common In The Universe" Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4676751.stm Tuesday, 12 July, 2005 Life Is Probably Common In The Universe Which means there's a fair chance of life existing that is a thousand years, or a million years, or a billion years, older than us, the human race - (we've a technological age of about 200 years only - Profs Ian Stewart & Jack Cohen). Now, in a thousand years there's every chance that the human race will be drastically different, maybe unrecognizable. So other species, with a million year (or billion yr) lead probably don't even resemble organic life anymore; indeed the likelihood is that they've achieved the `semi-immortality' of pure energy forms, manifesting themselves any way they want - and perhaps even disregarding the `binding' of (mere) protonic matter that we call "Time". [Co-incidentally many MIB accounts feature that strange curiosity/obsession with "Time" as an un-experienced phenomenon] So what? - So, I think we'd be well-advised to try to detect the other - unknown - energies in the universe (Einstein fully expected future discovery of "waveforms" presently unsee-able to us). Maybe we're in for a shock. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Xenogenesis - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:16:19 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:37:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Xenogenesis - Gonzalez >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:22:36 +0000 >Subject: Re: Xenogenesis >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:10:30 +0200 >>Subject: Xenogenesis >>Once again, a total hit. You can find in it all the episodes >>proposed by Bullard (up to the theophany, if you change the >>religious component to a sexual one) and also all kind of >>details (abductee's training for post-apocaliptic scenario, >>hybrids, etc.). >Eddie Bullard's study was published in 1987. Big coincidence! Well, of course, I do not agree. A few dates: June 1984, Bloodchild, Octavia Butler' short story appears in the Isaac Asimov SF Magazine, winning the Hugo and Nebula awards that year with her story about the hybridation planning of some helpful aliens. This story was afterwards expanded into her Xenogenesis trilogy. I have _not_ read it, so I cannot say how much ufological data is there. July 1984, V: The Final Battle. Second season of this TV series with reptilian aliens who procreate hybrids with superpowers... October 1985 According to Hopkins this was the first time Kathie ("Intruders") describes her alien child, opening the gates for posterior tales. >Also his general findings had been discussed at various >conferences before that. No mystery here, and certainly no >'psychosocial' significance. Well, so now instead abductees reading SF, you suggest SF
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 New To UFO UpDates & Some Questions From: John Sawyer <johnsawyercjs.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:43:07 -0400 Subject: New To UFO UpDates & Some Questions My name is John Sawyer, and I'm new to UFO UpDates; I hope to occasionally add something to the discussion. I began following UFO UpDates after reading Nick Redfern's interview in UFO Review issue 11, after which my brother told me I could read further on the subject here. I'm not a fulltime researcher; I've been involved in only one instance of case work/field research, in the first half of the 1990's. My research has mostly involved reading about the subject, starting when I was young, which led me in the 6th grade - some time around 1967 - to order my first book on the subject, Flying Saucers Serious Business, through my class's Scholastic Book Club. Some years later, in 1973, I saw an anomalous flying object, also witnessed by my brother - a glowing orange sphere, about 20 feet in diameter, turning around slowly overhead, about 100 feet up, in the middle of an Oregon forest during a camping trip - possibly simply an electromagnetic atmospheric phenomenon or earthquake light, but who knows? I've had a few other weird, mostly non-flying object experiences (an "alien" sighting, a poltergeist phenomenon, etc.), mostly when I was younger, but this may not be the place to go into that. I was involved in investigating a case in the 90s, in which a group of associates and my brother helped wrest a UFO researcher friend from the clutches of a hoaxer who claimed to be an alien hybrid (including, one day, black eye contacts that covered the entire surface of her eyes, though upon close examination, we could see her iris and pupils underneath), wild stories, "psychic" phenomena of which most of us were doubtful, that the hoaxer supposedly inflicted on our friend, etc. - the whole experience ran a good number of people through a ringer. My current orientation to the field is more academic, mostly reading up on others' research, and occasionally talking to a few researchers. What I'd like to bring to these discussions is mostly my take on things, to see if I can contribute in that fashion anything that I don't already see discussed by others. I currently don't have time to do active investigations, though I may again in the future. I bought Nick's book, Body Snatchers, today, and had a chance to read the first couple chapters and to skim much of the rest, though most of his book has been discussed here and elsewhere already, so I was already familiar with it. At least one minor question came to mind: Why would the military conduct radiation shielding tests to sources of nuclear radiation, by putting the sources of radiation into airborne craft? What would lofting these experiments into the air add? I would think it would be easier to gather data while performing such tests on the ground - the crew can move around just as much, or as little, while parked on the ground, as they can while in the air, so their proximity to the source of radiation and to the shielding between it and them would be the same whether on the ground or in the air. Or is this the "we don't know until we really try it" approach? Or was it to minimize the exposure of people on the ground?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Secrecy News -- 07/15/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:26:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:49:29 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/15/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 65 July 15, 2005 ** A (RESTRICTED) HISTORY OF THE TRINITY TEST SHOT ** SENATE DEBATES LEAKS AND CLEARANCES ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS ** CHINA VIEWS SECRECY IN THE US A (RESTRICTED) HISTORY OF THE TRINITY TEST SHOT July 16 is the sixtieth anniversary of the 1945 detonation of the first nuclear explosive, a test codenamed Trinity, at Alamogordo, New Mexico. "A test of the atomic bomb was considered essential ... because of the enormous step from the differential and integral experiments, and theory, to a practical gadget," according to a "restricted" Los Alamos history of the event. "No one was content that the first trial of a [nuclear explosive] should be over enemy territory, where, if the gadget failed, the surprise factor would be lost and the enemy might be presented with a large amount of active material in recoverable form." The Los Alamos history, entitled "Trinity" by K.T. Bainbridge, was removed from the Los Alamos web site a few years ago, along with thousands of other unclassified technical reports. The Los Alamos report library catalog states that access to the Bainbridge history is now "restricted to selected government agencies." But a copy is available on the FAS web site. See "Trinity," Los Alamos report no. LA-6300-H (94 pages, 4.3 MB PDF file) here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00317133.pdf More Trinity-related resources are available online here: http://www.trinityremembered.com/ SENATE DEBATES LEAKS AND CLEARANCES A heated Senate floor debate yesterday on whether to revoke security clearances of federal employees who disclose classified information such as the identity of a CIA covert agent contained something to annoy everyone. Senate Democrats introduced an amendment to the Homeland Security Appropriations Act that would prohibit "leakers" from holding security clearances -- a move clearly targeted at presidential adviser Karl Rove. Republicans responded with a proposal to rescind the clearances of anyone who refers to a classified FBI report that is then used by terrorist organizations as propaganda, a not very veiled reference to comments made recently by Sen. Dick Durbin. After 90 minutes of pointed but often ill-informed debate, both proposals were defeated. See the transcript from the Congressional Record here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s071405.html SELECTED CRS REPORTS The Congressional Research Service noted with apparent satisfaction this week that pending appropriations bills in both the House and the Senate included "a reaffirmation of the statutory restriction on the publication of CRS products." Nevertheless, CRS reports are increasingly finding their way into the public domain. Reports recently obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "Military Retirement: Major Legislative Issues," updated July 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB85159.pdf "U.S.-EU Cooperation Against Terrorism," updated July 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RS22030.pdf "The Middle East Peace Talks," updated July 7, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/IB91137.pdf "China's Economic Conditions," updated July 1, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB98014.pdf "Immigration: S Visas for Criminal and Terrorist Informants," updated January 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RS21043.pdf "Expedited Citizenship Through Military Service: Policy and Issues," updated September 30, 2003: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL31884.pdf CHINA VIEWS SECRECY IN THE US An editorial in China's People's Daily yesterday took aim at the growing secrecy in the United States. "The 'No.1' of the world invariably acts differently, it tries to be leader in everything, even in the number of 'secrets' it possesses," the paper jibed. The editorial cited (not quite accurately) a July 3 New York Times story by reporter Scott Shane which described the growth in Official secrecy in the U.S. Writing in what might be termed "Chinglish," the People's Daily went on to declare: "Those with a gentle mindset are mostly sincere and transparent; while those with an impetuous mindset are greatly scared and in a state of extreme nervousness, which is followed by more secrets." One almost knows what this means. Needless to say, the U.S. government is vastly more open than the government of China. At the same time, it is also likely true that the U.S. is far more prolific in the production of new national security secrets, due to its hypertrophied military and intelligence budgets. See "What a large pool of US 'secrets'!" from the People's Daily Online, July 14: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200507/14/eng20050714_196119.h tml "It seems that secrets have been kept, but security has not been achieved, it is really hard to give a clear explanation." Indeed. _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:16:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:23:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - White >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:31:34 -0700 >Subject: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? <snip> >The way I see it, he has created something of a Fantasy Island >because he uses quite a few discredited whistleblowers and >contactees to form his picture of what is going on. It would be interesting if Mike or others would post a list, by name, of all whistleblowers accused of being discredited. It would be of further interest, if each UFO researcher on this List would then offer their opinion, by way of a simple yes/no vote, as to whether they feel each discredited whistleblower is actually discredited in their view. The "vote" would be tallied, and posted along with the list of supposed discredited whistleblowers. Whoever does the tally would confirm that each voter is indeed an accomplished researcher, but who voted which way would not be posted on this List. Such a vote might be of value to the folks pursuing the exopolitics agenda, and would be helpful for those of us who are not UFO researchers to follow what is going on in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 The Top 100 Living Cryptozoologists From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:22:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:49:50 -0400 Subject: The Top 100 Living Cryptozoologists FATE Magazine has commissioned Loren Coleman to do the research, compile, and write the biographies for "The Top 100 Cryptozoologists: The Major Living Personalities Associated with Cryptozoology." You can have input and be part of the project
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Thomas Gold Obituary From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:54:00 -0400 Subject: Thomas Gold Obituary Source: Fortean Times - #196 June 2005 Necrolog Controversial physicist Thomas Gold was worthy of fortean respect. Bob Rickard celebrates the life of this important 'contrarian'. Thomas Gold Thomas Gold was that rare thing; a fortean among scientists, attracted to anomalies in the conventional wisdom and not afraid to research them beyond the confines of his scientific disciplines. Gold came to Cambridge University from Austria just before World War II. Despite spending a year in a British internment camp as a suspected enemy alien, he returned to study astronomy at Trinity College, Cambridge, and to help develop radar for the British Admiralty. While he was at Cambridge, he made friends with Fred Hoyle, Hermann Bondi (whom he met in the internment camp) and Francis Crick, among many other now famous names in science. Gold went on to teach at Cornell, Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford and Princeton; was Chief Assistant to Britain's Astronomer Royal and for seven years was a member of the US President's Space Science Panel; and gave prestigious lectures to the Royal Astronomical Society and NASA. He became Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Cornell University and for 20 years directed the Cornell Center for Radiophysics and Space Research which he founded. He even oversaw the construction of the world's largest radio telescope, in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Among his honours were Fellowships of the Royal Society, the American Geophysical Union, and Trinity College, Cambridge, where he took his original doctorate. Gold quickly gained a reputation as one of the 20th century's greatest 'contrarians' as his fresh and incisive analyses would lead to provocative ideas - ranging from the cosmological to the geophysical - that, more often than not, brought the disapproval of his more traditional colleagues. His earliest success came in 1946; while at Cambridge he developed a new theory of hearing, proposing a mechanism by which the tiny hair cells act as amplifiers in the inner ear. This was not confirmed until the 1970s. In 1948, reprising the team that worked on radar for the Admiralty, Gold joined Hoyle and Bondi to develop the 'steady- state' theory, which held that the Universe was under constant construction with no beginning or end. It became the dominant view in cosmology until the 1960s, when the discoveries of quasars (in late 1950s) and microwave background radiation (in 1965) reinforced the 'big bang' explanation that the Universe is expanding from an original singularity. Gold was disappointed, but characteristically unfazed, moving on to other work. In 1968, he correctly identified pulsars as rapidly rotating neutron stars with strong magnetic fields. He also coined the term 'magnetosphere' for the envelope of Earth's magnetic fields. Gold sparked controversy again in 1955, when he was designing the stereo camera used on the lunar surface by the US astronauts. At that time, the lunar plains were believed to be of volcanic lava, but Gold suggested that the surface could be covered with a deep layer of fine rock powder. His enemies seized on this, ridiculing him for predicting that the lunar astronauts and lander would sink out of sight into the dust. Interviewed before his death, Gold was still angry about this "slander", pointing out the obvious: that time and the action of cosmic rays would tend to harden the dust. He was vindicated in 1969, when the Apollo 11 crew brought the first samples of lunar soil back to Earth. Perhaps his most heretical theory challenged the prevailing ideas concerning the origin of oil, coal and natural gas. He proposed that in the depths of the Earth's crust was a second realm of life, a "deep hot biosphere" in which archaic bacteria thrived in temperatures well above 100 degrees Celsius, living off methane and other hydrocarbons six to 10 km (3.7-6.2 miles) down. This theory was launched in a 1992 paper in the *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences* and expanded in his 1998 book _The Deep Hot Biosphere_. "I'd submitted it to *Nature* in 1988, but they wouldn't publish it," he said later. In the traditional view, oil, coal and natural gas are the residue of dead plants and creatures from swamps and seabeds, 'cooked' under great geological pressure over vast spans of time. In any case, surface life was not supposed to have penetrated the Earth more than a few hundred metres. Gold, however, maintained that oil, coal and natural gas were incorporated into the Earth at great depths during its early formation, possibly from meteoric impact as icy meteors are known to contain masses of hydrocarbons. Instead of dead creatures turning into hydrocarbons when buried, Gold says the hydrocarbons are fuel on which the deep creatures live. Most Western geologist and petrologists consider Gold's ideas hugely controversial, insisting that the biogenic theory of fossil fuel formation adequately explains all observed fossil fuel deposits. However, recent discoveries of life on the ocean floors, making use of the normally toxic chemicals from volcanic vents, and of archaic bacteria found in deep holes from the Columbia River basalts of Washington to the oil wells of the North Sea and South African gold mines, all seem to confirm the basis of Gold's revisions. Gold firmly believed that his theory accounted for a range of anomalies, such as the presence of helium in oil (although it has no affinity with organic material) and the presence of magnetite in oil. Magnetite is a chemically reduced form of iron oxide - evidence, says Gold, that microbes have used its oxygen as they live off the oil, leaving behind tiny grains of magnetite. Another anomaly that puzzled Gold was obvious in retrospect: that all over the world oil is being drilled in sediments that vary region to region, differing in age and composition. There is no sedimentary material that is uniform to all oilfields and yet oil is fairly consistent whatever its provenance. These led him to the conclusion that oil might not be derived from organic matter but might have a single, more consistent and therefore much older origin. Between 1986 and 1993, Gold's ideas were tested by deep drilling in a meteoric crater in Sweden called the Siljan Ring (*FT* correspondent Sven Rosen was quick to tell us that this perfectly circular formation had dragon legends associated with it.) Below the crater, at a depth of 5-7km (3-4.3 miles) were solid granite beds. They had crystallised out of molten lava and therefore should not contain any organic remains, yet they yielded 80 barrels of natural oil. Detractors claimed the oil must have seeped down from higher levels - yet, as Gold answered, the shale beds of that area "were nowhere deeper than 300 meters, [984ft] while I was down at 6.7 kilometers [4.2 miles]". Gold says the first core samples reached him in Mallorca at a weekend when all the facilities were shut and he had to improvise a test. Using hot water and kitchen detergent as a solvent and kitchen tissue roll as a 'chromatogram', he separated metallic solids from the sludge. To test for iron he unscrewed the catches off a kitchen cabinet to hold under some aluminum foil holding liquid sludge. The grains of magnetite formed in a magnetic field. Since then, Russian petroleum geologists have reported finding oil in wells drilled more than 5km (3 miles) deep in the central part of the crystalline Baltic Shield and they have credited Gold with inspiring them to look there. More than 300 deep wells are under way in Russian Tartarstan and others in Vietnam's giant offshore White Tiger field, all reported to be productive. One important consequence of Gold's deep hot biosphere is still reverberating in the realm of oil production and international finance. The biogenic theory of oil production and international finance. The biogenic theory of oil led to the belief that it would eventually 'run out', which is what is keeping oil prices artificially high. If Gold is correct, the reserves of deep natural oil are vastly in excess of the 'normal' quantities estimated by the gas and petroleum industry. But Gold has more good news: in a recent interview he claimed that "some geologists agree that fields are refilling themselves, though they won't openly admit it." Gold believes that his can only be because the reduction in pressure in the higher reservoir is drawing more up from deeper layers. Gold's theory of an active deep biosphere has yet other, wider- ranging implications for the prevalence of life, or at least, its basic building blocks, in the Universe. Recent astronomical observations have detected large amounts of hydrocarbons on various planetary bodies in the Solar System. In 1996, when the analysis of the so-called 'meteorite from Mars' - designated ALH84001 - revealed the presence of small traces of magnetite, sulphides, oil and calcite cement in close proximity, Gold immediately noticed that his combination was typical of borehole shale. Not only did this imply that Mars could contain deep oil but that Martian bacteria must have lived off it to produce the magnetite residue. To Gold, it was clear that a lifeless surface need not have a lifeless interior. Gold thought the Moon, too, has a deep biosphere - as may many of the other satellites in our Solar System, such as Triton, Pluto and Charon. He not only endorsed the idea that meteors and meteorites play a part in transmitting primitive life-forms through the Universe, but predicted that life could also be spread by a new kind of wandering planet, travelling between star systems and even galaxies, that was not formed within any planetary system and not tied to a star by gravity. It was natural, he argued, for a physicist to gravitate towards questions about the origins of life and how it works. As for the life on Earth, he said: "If life developed down below, it could
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: New To UFO UpDates & Some Questions - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:27:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:56:44 -0400 Subject: Re: New To UFO UpDates & Some Questions - Redfern >From: John Sawyer <johnsawyercjs.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:20:05 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: New To UFO UpDates & Some Questions <snip> >At least one minor question came to mind: Why would the military >conduct radiation shielding tests to sources of nuclear >radiation, by putting the sources of radiation into airborne >craft? What would lofting these experiments into the air add? Hey John You aroe crrect: if it was just shielding tests, then they could be undertaken anywhere - on the ground, inside a secure installation, etc. But if you go to page 106 of the book, you'll see that the whole reason why this was an in-the-air test was because a device had been incorporated into the vehicle that was designed to convert heat energy from an atomic pile into electrical energy. This was a very crude, early attempt at nuclear powered (or related is a better term) flight, not just a shielding experiment. "Flight" being the key word. There was a screw-up and it was back to the drawing-board. But this was way beyond just shielding (although that of course was a requirement too as a result of this experiment). I now have various files on the research that the US did in this area that was based upon the original research of 3 Paperclip guys cited in the book and documented in the Appendix/Documents section of the book. You'll note that the comments are that the device was built "buy us" not by the Paperclip guys - it was just based upon their work. I recently did a new interview with Stuart Miller for his UFO Review re the post-publication reaction. One thing I mentioned to Stuart that is pushing ahead is official digging into the data in the book, which I am assisting with - with additional data coming forward from doors being opened by people where none of us would stand a chance in hell of opening them. I will be updating regularly on this - hopefully commencing soon, now that things are progressing, as part of it relates to the nuke flights, etc. >These certainly weren't the same tests as were performed to >gauge the exposure to natural radiation in the upper atmosphere. Nope, that's right; they weren't. As the interviewees stressed, it was a whole range of events in the summer of 47 (approx May to August) that collectively led to the "Roswell Incident" story and not just the event at the Brazel Ranch. Some of those other crashes (at other locations) were almost certainly the genesis of other summer 47 crash reports elsewhere in New Mexico; and also the reason why some people have placed the "second" Roswell incident crash site at various, other locations. It was precisely these other incidents that the people were talking about seeing, but they interpreted it as having a direct connection with the Roswell events, when it was just one of several other things going on that failed badly. Hence the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Time Travel Appears Possible From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:28:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:59:34 -0400 Subject: Time Travel Appears Possible Source: http://www.mercola.com/2005/jul/9/time_travel.htm Time Travel Appears Possible While time travel may seem like a phenomenon found only in movies like Back to the Future and The Terminator, science reveals this may not be the case. According to physicists, real-life time travel can occur within a kind of feedback loop where backward movement is possible, but only in a way that is "complementary" to the present. In other words, people can only go back in time and look around but cannot do anything that would alter the present they left behind. Debunking the Time Travel Paradox One of the biggest myths surrounding time travel is the idea that if one goes back in time they could, theoretically, do something to change the present. The new model, which uses the laws of quantum mechanics, tosses that famous paradox out the window. Clearly the present has never been changed by roguish time- travelers, simply due to the fact that people don't suddenly fade out of existence because a rerun of events has prevented their births. Therefore, time travel is either: Simply not possible. Or, something is acting to prevent any backward movement from changing the present. While the former option may seem the most logical, Einstein's general theory of relativity has led physicists to suspect the latter. Using Einstein's Theory of Relativity According to Einstein, space-time can curve back on itself, allowing time-travelers to double back and meet the younger versions of themselves. A team of physicists from the United States and Australia claim this situation can only be the case if there are physical restrictions protecting the present from changes in the past. These restrictions exist because of the weird laws of quantum mechanics, though (traditionally) they don't account for a backward movement in time. Quantum behavior is ruled by probabilities: Before something has actually been observed, there are many other possibilities regarding its state; however, once its state has been measured, those possibilities are cut down to only one, eliminating all uncertainty. To put it plainly, quantum mechanics discerns between something that might happen and something that did happen. For example, if someone doesn't know if their father is alive - if there is only a 90 percent chance he is alive - then there is a possibility one can go back in time and kill him. But, if one's father is alive in present time, then there is no chance he can be killed in the past. Ahh, the mysteries of quantum mechanics ... BBC News June 17, 2005 Dr. Mercola's Comment: Like me, many of you may be interested in the possibility of time travel. I have always been fascinated with this topic and science fiction films about it are some of my favorite ones.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Hacking For UFOs And Landing In Trouble From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:30:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:03:09 -0400 Subject: Hacking For UFOs And Landing In Trouble Source: The Guardian - UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html Saturday July 9, 2005 Game Over Gary McKinnon has been accused of committing the 'biggest military computer hack of all time', and if extradited to the US faces up to 70 years in jail. So how did this techno geek from north London end up cracking open the Pentagon and Nasa's systems? He talks exclusively to Jon Ronson as he awaits his fate ... What Gary was hunting for, as he snooped around Nasa, and the Pentagon's network, was evidence of a UFO cover-up. Gary McKinnon was born in Glasgow in 1966. His father ran a scaffolding gang, but his parents separated when he was six and he moved to London with his mother and stepfather, a bit of a UFO buff. "He comes from Falkirk," Gary says, "and just outside Falkirk there's a place called Bonnybridge, which is the UFO capital of the world. When he lived there, he had a dream that he was walking around Bonnybridge seeing huge ships. He told me this and it inflamed my curiosity. He was a great science fiction reader. So, him being my second father, I started reading science fiction, too, and doing everything he did." Gary read Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein - "the golden age of science fiction" - and he joined Bufora, the British UFO Research Association, when he was 15. Bufora describes itself as "a nationwide network of around 300 people, who have a dedicated, noncultist interest in understanding the wide-ranging extent of the UFO enigma". "So you began to believe in UFOs," I say. "To hope," says Gary, "that there might be something more advanced than us, keeping a friendly eye on us. Hopefully a friendly eye." Then he saw WarGames, and he thought, "Can you really do it? Can you really gain unauthorised access to incredibly interesting places? Surely it can't be that easy." And so, in 1995, he gave it a try. ... "What was the most exciting thing you saw?" I ask. "I found a list of officers' names," he claims, "under the heading 'Non-Terrestrial Officers'." "Non-Terrestrial Officers?" I say. "Yeah, I looked it up," says Gary, "and it's nowhere. It doesn't mean little green men. What I think it means is not earth-based. I found a list of 'fleet-to-fleet transfers', and a list of ship names. I looked them up. They weren't US navy ships. What I saw made me believe they have some kind of spaceship, off-planet." "The Americans have a secret spaceship?" I ask. "That's what this trickle of evidence has led me to believe." "Some kind of other Mir that nobody knows about?" "I guess so," says Gary. "What were the ship names?"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Welsh UFO Fan Digs Up Real-Life X-Files - From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:39:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:05:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Welsh UFO Fan Digs Up Real-Life X-Files - >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers -> <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:01 AM >Subject: Welsh UFO Fan Digs Up Real-Life X-Files <snip> >Through the Freedom of Information Act, 34-year-old Chris Fowler >obtained a detailed 107-page Ministry of Defence report into a >night when 70 UFO sightings were reported across Britain - >including South Wales. <snip> I have already been in touch with Chris Fowler (and a very helpful and friendly man he is). After some discussion and two- way information exchange, he seems to agree that the case is satisfactorily resolved as the re-entry of a Russian rocket booster. This was covered in Fortean Times issue 199 in an article by Dave Clarke, and I am collaborating with Dave, Chris, and Gary Anthony in putting together a web site to cover this sighting, including information which wasn't included in the FT article. The case raises some very serious issues in relation to the effectiveness of the UK Air Defence system and other matters relating to the MoD at the time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:53:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >Source: eMediaWire >http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >July 9, 2005 >Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >Convocation Hall University of Toronto <snip> >1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >civilizations, <snip> What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of 'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canada�s first major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way, way beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know about UFO's. I strongly agree we should be pressing for transparancy within government regarding all it knows about or has gathered pertaining to UFO's (there's surely lots more to be revealed). Mike Jamieson's comments reflect a more realistic and sensible position on this matter and I wholeheartedly concur with every word in his post. In my view, this is bad, bad, bad!!! This has the potential to become a 'conflagration of foolishness' and, if the media gets involved to the extent they are calling for, unless the organizers tone it down with the outlandish claims then Canadian Ufology may be lined up for a good hard slap across its face with a heavy, dripping, kook brush! >3. The tracking and registering of UFOs is undertaken on a >regular basis; all with the full knowledge of major western >government military, NORAD and security agencies, <snip> Probably true... at least to some degree. This is the only bit of sense in the entire announcement. Why the jump from this 'reasonable' claim to the other ridiculous ones? For instance, when did we "/validate/ the presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated civilizations", even if this is the case? What a crock! I thought Corso's claims were outlandish! This takes the cake!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 15 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:12:31 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:33:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Source: eMediaWire >>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >>July 9, 2005 >>Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >>Convocation Hall University of Toronto ><snip> >>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>civilizations, ><snip> >What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canada=E2=80=99s first >major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way, way >beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >about UFO's. Eugene: This is what you get with exopolitics - and why it should be avoided like the plague by anyone who wants to see the UFO phenomenon taken seriously.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:31:16 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:00:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - Salla >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:31:34 -0700 >Subject: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? >The revival of political activism specifically targeting a so- >called government UFO cover-up is something I do not now >support. Not only do I think we do not know significantly much >about this cover-up, I think no one really knows significantly >much about the who, what, where, when, how and why of UFOs. >(Years ago I presumed to know alot, but not now.) >This is obviously a change of position for me, having been a co- >founder of the former effort called "Operation Right To Know". >The newly formed Exopolitics Institute includes a political >activist agenda. In my opinion, its founder has fashioned (in >his own mind) a complex picture of both UFOs and the 'UFO >government cover-up'. The way I see it, he has created something >of a Fantasy Island because he uses quite a few discredited >whistleblowers and contactees to form his picture of what is >going on. Operating on a foundation like this would not seem >likely to be conducive to effective political action, public >education, or research. >A more relevant and appropriate goal for political action, IMO, >would be the encouragement of greater transparency and openness >in government. In the end, improvements here just might help >expose anything concerning UFOs that remains hidden in some >corners of our government. Aloha Mike, Firstly let me say that since I reside on, and established the Exopolitics Institute on, the Big Island of Hawaii, that you are partly correct in your reference to Fantasy Island. Fantasy Island as many know was a television series filmed in the Hawaiian Islands and depicted an idyllic existence where everyone's dream social and romantic relationships became true. In my own case, Hawaii has more than lived up to its reputation and my current life mirrors the kind of idyllic social and romantic relationships depicted on the Fantasy Island series. Yet here the similarities end, and let me explain some reasons why the Exopolitics Institute is not a Fantasy Island creation in pursuing its various goals including seriously investigating the testimonies of 'whistleblowers' and 'contactees' claiming first hand experience of EBEs, ETVs and exotic ET based technologies - the Institute's goals are located at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/index.htm First, these whistleblowers and contactees are real. Their testimonies are compelling to hear and very real to them. The emotions associated with their respective experiences are very real. They often have solid credentials with decades of service in branches of the military or in the corporate/academic world. They stand by their testimonies so much that they are willing to face the insults and accusations that come their way in discussing their testimonies, photographs, and any physical evidence they may have or formerly possessed. They claim to be subject to official government harassment and in some cases claim all their public records are withdrawn or destroyed as a result of their claims. Now you say these whistleblowers/contactees are 'discredited' without offering any valid criteria for determining how someone's testimony should be accepted or not. Is it merely what you, Mike Jamieson, conclude after reading a few critical sources that leads to a whistleblower/contactee being discredited? Does someone become discredited when several prominent UFO researcher points to some inconsistencies in the stories of the whistleblower? Or perhaps someone is discredited when you use your own personal experiences concerning frauds, charlatans, etc., and apply this according to your own subjective criteria to the 'extraordinary claims' of whistleblowers/contactees? For example, Col Phillip Corso was supposedly 'discredited' since no records where found in the Eisenhower Library to support his testimony in his 1998 affidavit of having been a member of the National Security Council. Yet FBI records and Corso's military record both confirm that Corso was a staff member assigned to the NSC, and served on the Operations Coordinating Board and also the Psychological Strategy Board both of which were part of the NSC system. So Corso, two months before his death at 82 years of age makes the 'fatal' error of claiming he was a "member of the NSC" whereas previously he had correctly stated he was only a "staff member of the NSC". Yet prominent UFO researchers jump on this inconsistency and say Corso was embellishing his record and is therefore discredited. Similarly, Corso claims to have been chief of the Foreign Technology Desk under his old mentor Lt Gen Arther Trudeau for two years from 1961-63. Yet his military records only could substantiate him being the chief for 90 days. So veteran UFO researchers jump on the inconsistency and say Corso is embellishing his record and is therefore discredited. I could go on but you get the point now. Discrediting 'whistleblowers' and 'contactees' individuals by seizing upon minor inconsistencies and blowing these out of proportion to discredit a witness is a well known tactic used in the judicial system. I fail to see how a 'legal strategy' of dubious ethical value should be used to assess the testimonies of many individuals who are very sincere, often have sterling credentials, substantiating material, and suffer considerable personal difficulties for their testimonies concerning EBEs/ETVs, etc. People will disagree over the persuasiveness of the testimonies and evidence offered by each of these whistleblowers/contactees. However, consensus is not a prerequisite for exopolitical analysis. All that is required is evidence from sources that meet a minimum threshold of credibility based on largely on the testimonies of these individuals and supporting witnesses. These threshold criteria need to be based on the social sciences were scholars are trained in analysing testimonies and belief systems of individuals. The most common objection to having threshold criteria based on largely subjective factors is where's the hard evidence? Yet as I've argued previously, having hard evidence concerning information and/or projects of highly classified material is a federal crime in the U.S. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-32.htm So 'hard evidence' should not be used as the primary criterion for evaluating whistleblower/contactee testimonies since that's begging the question of whether classified projects exist and whether hard evidence is systematically removed form the public arena. Now Mike, are you saying I'm living on 'Fantasy Island' for not accepting the criticisms of the testimonies of these whistleblowers/contactees offered by veteran researchers due to what appear to be minor inconsistencies such as in Corso's case? Are you saying that all involved in the Exopolitics Institute are somehow metaphorically living on Fantasy Island simply because they accept the Mission and Goals of the Institute, or because they are persuaded by the testimonies and evidence offered by whistleblowers/contactees 'discredited' according to your own subjective criteria? If you take a look at the Advisory Board of the Institute, you will see individuals with decades of fieldwork and research experience as well as some with solid military credentials. See: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-Advisory-Board.htm All support the Institute's goals. Are they living in some kind of Fantasy Island for being persuaded by some or many whistleblower/contactee testimonies? Second, you claim that you no longer support political activism against the "UFO cover up", and instead support greater transparency in the government's handling of the UFO issue. I strongly disagree with your abandonment of political activism to achieve UFO disclosure. History has shown that when it comes to the great moral questions confronting a generation, it's only after mobilization of large numbers of the population that progress is made in the political arena. Women gained the right to vote only because they politically mobilized. India gained its independence from Britain because Indians politically mobilized. African American's gained their civil rights only because they politically mobilized. South Africans gained a genuinely democratic system only because they politically mobilized. The great moral issues of any generation usually pit vested interests against progressive social forces. Today we have the great moral issue of the UFO cover-up and denial of the truth concerning the ETH. Governments maintain secrecy and the population wants the truth. Talking about greater transparency or conducting fiercely contested debates over the minutia of alleged UFO crashes 50 years ago will not solve the great moral issue of our day. Political mobilization is the key to ending the UFO cover up and it's sad you have chosen to abandon your former role in Operation Right to Know and now publicly oppose those desiring to a new phase of political activism based on mobilization of the citizenry. Finally, I don't pretend to have all the answers in the UFO/exopolitical arena. I'm merely using the analytical abilities I acquired in a 'real' career as a political scientist to analyze the testimonies and data concerning the ETH, and to offer some (exo)political analyses of these. I'm persuaded that evidence supporting the validity of the ETH is sufficiently well grounded to move to the next step of large scale political mobilization. I hope those who support the goals of the Institute join me and others in making such a campaign possible. In peace,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:35:04 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:15:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>Source: eMediaWire >>>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >>>July 9, 2005 >>>Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >>>Convocation Hall University of Toronto >><snip> >>>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>>civilizations, >><snip> >>What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >>why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >>'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >>these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canada's first >>major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way, way >>beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >>about UFO's. >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:12:31 EDT >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >Eugene: >This is what you get with exopolitics - and why it should be >avoided like the plague by anyone who wants to see the UFO >phenomenon taken seriously. Paul: I couldn't agree more! This is not a good development. The longer I'm involved in this business, the less and less tolerance I have for this type of nonsense and these 'ufoologists' and 'alienologists.' Something has to be done! Respectful Ufology has to clean its dirty linen. We have to aggressively do more to mark a dividing line between 'us' and 'them.' I'm a strong believer in the 'United we stand, divided we fall' concept! but if we remain united with these guys and approaches then we'll still fall. More from the Press Release: "The truth about UFOs as well as the innovative and visionary planetary directions needed to understand the meaning behind this phenomenon will be made available to mainstream media for the first time in Canadian history. In the next Press alert a major announcement will made about a prominent Canadian political dignitary - who will deliver an address at the symposium on matters relating to the Canadian government�s involvement with UFOs. Each speaker will present unequivocal evidence of the existence of and contact with Extraterrestrial civilizations. Each speaker will document that unidentified aerial phenomenon (UFOs), under intelligent control, are recorded and tracked daily by military and civilian pilots, NORAD and the general public throughout the world." Well... aren't we lucky! All this and more for a mere $40.00. "The symposium will engage media to use all of its resources to publicly call for complete government disclosure concerning the reality of UFOs and the information, now in the possession of government agencies, about an Extraterrestrial presence on Earth." I think they would be better off engaging the media to use all of its resources to call the government to increase shipments of chlorpromazine to Toronto... because it looks like there's a shortage of thorazine in that area. Do they really think there is even the smallest possibility that the media and scientists are going to get behind this? It's hard enough to get them to support the cause when it's just reasonable and rational (backed up by the data) requests for support in this field. "...calling for complete government disclosure concerning the reality of UFOs and the Extraterrestrial presence on Earth." "...and the information, now in the possession of government agencies, about an Extraterrestrial presence on Earth." All of this smacks of Marshall Vian Summer's 'The Allies of Humanity: An Urgent Message About the Extraterrestrial Presence in the World Today' and I'm wondering if we can expect a visit from the "unseen ones" themselves at the upcoming Toronto symposium - surely they will take time out from their "overseeing" the "development of intelligent life within the Greater Community of Worlds" for such an important conference full of revelations and disclosure. Sounds like someone somewhere has been reading this book and left their powers of discrimination turned off while doing so! "The recent disclosure by the Brazilian government and military that UFOs have been tracked and registered for over 50 years is part of the growing disclosure movement underway through the world." The fine accomplishments of A. J. Gevaerd and his collegues shouldn't be mentioned in the same announcement as this type of disclosure nonsense. The 'disclosure' that Gevaerd and collegues are working at, I think, is in a vein far removed (on the opposite side of the UFO body) from the one that contains the type of 'disclosure' that the organizers of the Toronto symposium are talking about. Apples and oranges here, or more accurately: disclosure in arteries and disclosure in veins - two completely different types of vessels carrying things in opposite directions when it comes to the heart of the matter! It's just dismaying to see things taking this type of direction in Canada. Toronto is such a great area when it comes to potential to bring attention to the UFO subject. And considering it is so close geograpically to the center of Canada (and that the bulk of MUFON's membership is within the Ontario area) the opportunity that exists as the National Directorship (of MUFON in Canada) is transferred to Ontario ... well, it's probably the best thing to happen for the MUFON organization within Canada. To see such a great opportunity - both for MUFON and Canadian Ufology - get ruined as the credibility of both receives a heavy coat of paint from the kook brush, is depressing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 57 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:24:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:18:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 57 - Hatch >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:39:59 +0100 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 57 >The main item in Magonia Supplement No. 57 is an article by >Martin Kottmeyer in which he argues that the statistics do not >support the theory that UFO flaps are generated by the release >of films about UFOs and alien invasions. The html edition is now >available at: >http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms57.htm Hello John: That is a very good and interesting article! Martin Kottmeyer has done a real piece of work here.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:03:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:21:05 -0400 Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Allan >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:54:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript >>CLANCY: What, the pictures? >>KING: Yeah, what is that? >>CLANCY: The pictures are somebody trying to create the illusion >>of flying saucers or somebody took a picture of some weird thing >>in the sky, happened to look like a flying saucer. It's >>certainly not evidence that there's something extraterrestrial >>in the sky. >Obviously she knew/knows nothing about these pictures, as her >"certainly not evidence" shows. >The Trent photos from McMinnville are either a hoax or the real >thing and the liklihood of the Trents creating a hoax is so small >that even Hartmann endorsed the photos in the Condon report. Hartmann did change his mind later. Try asking him now. The Rex Heflin photographs of 1965 were also discussed during the Larry King show. In April or May 1968 there was a TV broadcast in the UK on "UFOs and the people that see them". One of the cases brought up was the Heflin photos. The narrator (a Dr Stephen Black) ended by pointing out that Heflin had for some years been an expert model maker, and had been photographing such models as a hobby. In all the discussion of Heflin's photos not once have I seen any other reference to this, even by skeptics. Why did this come out on a British TV show, and why has it escaped notice by everyone else? It does not appear in the Condon Report on the case. Regardless of the supposed "unimpeachable character" of the man, does not the above cast serious doubts over the said photos? Has anyone else investigated his model-making past? Also, this was the guy who padded out his tale with alleged
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:55:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:26:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Source: eMediaWire >>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >>July 9, 2005 >>Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >>Convocation Hall University of Toronto > <snip> >>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>civilizations, ><snip> >What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of 'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canada�s first major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way, way beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know about UFO's. <snip> >In my view, this is bad, bad, bad!!! This has the potential to become a 'conflagration of foolishness' and, if the media gets involved to the extent they are calling for, unless the organizers tone it down with the outlandish claims then Canadian Ufology may be lined up for a good hard slap across its face with a heavy, dripping, kook brush! <snip> >What a crock! I thought Corso's claims were outlandish! This >takes the cake! >I need an aspirin... Hello Eugene: No disagreement here [burp!] Here is the list of speakers: - Steven G. Bassett - Keynote Speaker - from Washington USA - UFO Lobbyist/candidate for US Congress. (rotsa ruck.) - Canada�s Stanton T. Friedman Nuclear Physicist - Richard Dolan - USA - author of UFOs & National Security State - Paola Harris - Italy -author of Connecting the Dots: Making Sense of the UFO Phenomenon What is Stanton Friedman doing with this set of clowns? You couldn't pay me enough to show my face there. >Four major issues will be addressed: >1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; As per the above and... >2. Secret and radically new technologies related to the energy >and propulsion systems used by extraterrestrial has been >sequestered by undisclosed American government agencies ... I love that. Variously stated, it always comes down to free/unlimited energy, as if the Japanese (just as an example) would not be crawling all over it. >These new energy sources will ultimately eliminate the >need for fossil fuels. The public will demand its use >soon after disclosure is achieved. If you want to put the entire scientific community entirely off to UFO matters, this is how to do it. If indeed the Guv' wanted to hide some alien technology (something I kinda doubt), they do no better than to toss up a BS barrage like the above. There's no real need to do so however; just stand aside and let the clowns blow the smoke. I see MUFON Central Canada is co-organizer. Aren't they a little, uh, embarrassed? On a different note, I picked up a copy of the Weekly World News today. Three bucks! Sticker shock. ($3.95 Canadian) I'm way out of touch. The headline caught my eye: "Moon to Explode in 6 Months!" Heck. I didn't know that. Nothing about it in the Wall Street Journal, but the WSJ is only one dollar. The WWN has other surprising stories. Send me $3 and I will list them off. Way cheaper than admission to UFO hootenannies.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:31:24 -0400 Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' To Nick Redfern, EBK and All, I have now read your book "Body Snatchers in the Desert", and I am sorry to say that I have more criticisms to make, following my first comments based on your interview by Stuart Miller (my messages of June 22 and 23). I have read the excellent critiques of Kevin Randle (sent to me privately, which sould be posted soon on the List) and others, notably the precise questions of Robert Durant (coming soon as well) but I feel that I can add some more points. First, about the alleged transfer of prisoners from Unit 731 in Manchuria to the United States, supposedly in order to continue the horrible human experiments made there by the Japanese, the question is: did it really happen? This is all important in your theory since you claim it was the tremendous secret to be hidden at all costs, even by spreading false stories of UFO crashes. You say, citing your inside source Levine (p 85): "When the Japanese surrendered in the wake of the atomic destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, a number of these and "a quantity of still-living people were found in the remains of Unit 731 facilities (and also German laboratories) by Allied soldiers. These remains were subsequently transferred to the Los Alamos Laboratories, New Mexico, where this dark and disturbing research was continued". There is a big problem here: this story is radically contradicted by all historical studies and sources. In your references, you mention the book of Peter Williams and David Wallace "Unit 731: Japan's Secret Biological Warfare in World war II" (1989). I have read it (in its French translation). It is, indeed, a very complete history of these horrible experiments, and it says clearly what happened at the end of the war. When the Soviet army began to invade Manchuria, on August 9, 1945, the next day, the Japanese destroyed all buildings of Units 731 and 100, and killed all the prisoners (the "Marutas"). They had orders to destroy every trace of the experiments, and never talk about them. This version is confirmed, for instance, in another book that I just found: "The Pacific War" by the Japanese historian Saburo Ienaga (1968; American edition by Pantheon Books, New York, 1978. this book has been praised by major American newspapers). Here is what it says (pp. 188,189): "According to former unit members, when the Soviet Union entered the war on August 8, 1945, the Japanese tried to destroy every trace of the 731 Unit's activities. The Maruta prisoners were given food dosed with potassium cyanide: those who did not eat the food were machine-gunned. The bodies were thrown into a pit in a huge courtyard at the unit, doused with gasoline, and set on fire. Because of the great number of corpses, they did not burn thoroughly. The charred bodies were then put into a pulverizer. Engineers dynamited the buildings, and all equipment tools, and incriminating material were burned. Personnel of 731 Unit were given highest priority evacuation back to Japan, before the rest of the Kwantung Army or other units". (Note: the Soviet Union declared war on August 8, and began invading Manchuria the next day). According to other sources, at the time of the destruction of Unit 731, there were only 150 prisoners left, also called "logs", who were all killed. This destruction of all proofs is of course the reason why it took a long time, after the end of the war, to uncover the whole story of Unit 731. The first American investigator, Lt. Col. Sanders, a young bacteriologist from Camp Detrick in Maryland who arrived in Japan one week after Japan surrendered, interrogated many leaders during three months, but he was misled by his Japanese interpreter, Lt. Col. Naito, who was a former student of General Ishi, the head of the biological warfare program. Nevertheless, Sanders discovered around September that Unit 731 was involved in human experiments, and began to inform General MacArthur. Ishi then proposed to give scientific information on these experiments in exchange for complete immunity, for him and his colleagues, which was eventually granted to them. On that matter, you are apparently mistaken again when you write, quoting your insiders, that a "massive" amount of documentation was found in 1945. Actually, according to Williams and Wallace, American authorities were still discussing in the summer of 1947 the opportunity of making a deal with Ishi, which had been recommended by General MacArthur. The deal was concluded the following year, in spite of a negative advice of the State Department. So, this calls into serious question your claims about "massive" documentation found as soon as 1945. Another important difference resides in the alleged use of deformed and handicapped people for all these experiments, according to your insiders. Actually, the Japanese experimenters preferred to have subjects in good health: "Unless you work with a healthy body, you cannot get results" (quote from the text: "Unit 731. A half century of denial", at technologyartist.com. See the message of Jan Aldrich of June 22). So, the real story of the end of Unit 731 seems quite different from yours. I also have some more comments about the alleged flying wings and lifting bodies, derived from Horten models, that would have been tested secretly in White Sands. I quote from your final summary (p. 207): ".in May 1947, an experimental aircraft that was borne out of the revolutionary aviation research of the Horten brothers of Germany was test-flown from White Sands, New Mexico". It was part of a larger project begun in 1946, of a nuclear-powered aircraft. But according to all credible sources, there were no such craft! First, about the Horten flying wings. In fact, the Americans did find and bring back to the United States a Horten prototype, the Horten H IX, with two jet engines. There were, in Germany at the end of the war, two models of Horten jet propelled, flying wings: - the Horten H IX V2 which was first flown in Feb. 18, 1945, but crashed and killed the pilot because of engine failure; - the Horten H IX V3, the one which was taken to the United States. But it was not finished, and never was. The American engineers were not interested, probably for the simple reason that there were already the Northrop wings, being tested and flown (with lots of problems). Not in White Sands, which had only a rudimentary airfield, but at Muroc Dry Lake (later Edwards AFB), which was the adequate and only place for testing experimental planes like that. Now, about the "lifting bodies". This term refers to new designs without wings tested much more recently, from 1963 to 1975, in connection with construction of reentry vehicles like the space shuttle. The original idea was conceived at NASA in 1957, by Dr Alfred J. Eggers, Jr., according to the NASA fact sheet on Lifting Bodies. See: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-011- DFRC.html These little, fat gliders were not the best design to carry a team of Japanese handicapped prisoners, in great secrecy, hanging under a huge balloon, in White Sands in 1947! On the other hand, they did look a bit like certain descriptions of the Roswell UFO by some witnesses. There is just a word to say about Nazi flying saucers stories, which you seem to believe, in your chapter 12 "Hitler's Disks". These stories, which appeared at the beginning of the fifties (at a time when a policy of sytematic UFO debunking was put in practice) have long since been discarded by all serious aviation historians. Nevertheless, they continue to be recycled periodically. I am sad to find them again in your book (pp. 146, 147). Now, lets's turn to the central piece of your book, the alleged top secret White Sands experiment. You say in your final conclusions (p. 207): "On board the vehicle were a number of physically handicapped people who had been found in the remnants of the Japanese military's Unit 731 laboratories and who were used in this dark and disturbing experiment - the purpose of which was to try to better understand the effects of nuclear- powered flight on an air-crew. The experiment ended in disaster when then craft crash-landed at White Sands, killing some of the crew". You reveal in your book a stunning aspect of the experiment. According to one of your whistleblowers, the Colonel (p. 108): "Experimental radiation shielding and an amount of radioactive material was used that was meant to simulate as close as possible the output that might be expected from a nuclear power source when we have one. It malfunctioned. It crashed. Those are the facts". Now, you have just answered a question of John Sawyer (July 15). You cite another version given by the Colonel (p. 106): "a device had been incorporated into the vehicle that was designed to convert heat energy from an atomic pile into electrical energy". This is even more confusing. Was it just radioactive material (p. 108), or an atomic pile (p. 106)? I must confess that I missed this version on first reading, simply because it seemed so incredible to me. See below for the first and only airborne test with an atomic pile, on a huge NB-36H bomber, in 1955. At that time, atomic piles were very heavy. So, in order to test the effects of irradiation, radioactive material had been installed on board. Only the pilot was protected. What a nightmare. What a dangerous experiment, if only for the technicians in charge of the installation. And, why do it at high altitude, with such great difficulties? What difference does it make to irradiate a man on the ground or at a high altitude? To add some cosmic radiations to the dose? I am sorry to say that it does not make any sense to me. About studies for protection from nuclear radiations, I just have to refer to the text of Stan Friedman "STF on Redfern's Body Snatchers.", posted on this list on June 23. He is an expert on those matters and he does not believe your story. And what about the risk of being publicly revealed in case of accident? That's were the Roswell file comes in: this story fits nicely with the dubious tale of the cameraman (revealed by Santilli with the "alien autopsy film"), of a crash in the White Sands area, with "freaks" and dangerous radioactivity on the site. Still about nuclear experiments, I also noted two big mistakes, the first one allegedly revealed by a Col. Helmik to Tim Cooper, about which you don't express any doubts. You cite Helmick (p. 120) revealing to Tim Cooper: "They test-flew an atomic-powered craft near Trinity in July (1947) and that is when they found something else in the desert". How can you report such a an enormous tale without comment? It is well known that no aircraft with a nuclear engine existed at that time. Yes, there were some projects in the fifties, which were abandoned at the beginning of the sixties. The only test flights were to carry an atomic pile on board a huge NB-36H bomber, which was still propelled with classic engines. There was heavy protection for the crew. The first flight was on September 17, 1955. There were 47 flights, after which the contaminated plane was dismantled and buried. The second nuclear mistake I noticed is the mention of "the 1946 Hydrogen bomb tests on Bikini atolls", according to Martin Cannon. Maybe it was just a slip of the pen, but you could have corrected it. Now, I must turn to the next part of your story, the second flight, and accident, this time in the area of Roswell. You say, in your final summary (pp. 207, 208): "Two months later, in early July a second and similar vehicle was, once again, flown from White Sands. In this particular instance, the aircraft was affixed to a huge balloon array that was based upon advanced Fugo balloon designs developed in the closing stages of WW II by Japanese forces. The aircraft was piloted by a crew of Japanese personnel who had been specifically trained for the task and crashed near the Foster Ranch after being catastrophically struck by lightning". In that second scenario, the risk that the horrible experiment would be exposed publicly would have been even higher, especially if the huge Fugo balloon drifted in the wind to an undesirable place. What about a crash landing in a populated area? Anyway, this part of the story is supposed to "explain" the discoveries near Roswell. But the descriptions of debris found on the Foster ranch by a number of witnesess don't fit the alleged equipment of your story: airplane and balloons, nothing that could be identified as a "flying disk" by the elite Air Force officers of Roswell, not to mention the pilot and "crew" of handicapped Japanese prisoners! See, for that matter, the message of Kevin Randle, who knows what he is talking about, having interviewed several of these witnesses. I wish to add a couple of remarks on that matter. You cite Jacques Vallee who mentioned Saran as a possible culprit for a confusion (p. 123): "Aluminized Saran, also known as Silvered Saran, came from technology already available for laboratory work in 1948. It was paper-thin, was not dented by a hammer blow and was restored to a smooth finish after crushing". First, Roswell was in 1947, not 1948. In addition to that, we find in the thick Roswell Report of the Air Force (1995), a table of results of tests measuring the strengh of various substances, for eventual balloon fabrication.In the Technical Report No 1 of New York University on constant level balloons, dated April 1, 1948 and covering the period Nov. 1, 1946 to Jan. 1, 1948, there is a comparative table of measurements on various products: Polyethylene, Saran, Nylon, Vinylite, Teflon, Ethocellulose, Pliofilm, Nylon or silk fabric coated with various products. Saran was noted as "poor" for tear resistance, and was eliminated. Similarly, you cite the "Colonel" (p. 132), saying that Brazel picked-up "parts of the balloons that were polythene (polyethylene) with an aluminium covering, which was not widely seen then - and hardly ever by civilians back then." But we learn in the Roswell Report that the large polyethylene balloons became available only toward the end of June and therefore could not be the origin of the Roswell incident. Anyway, even if some had been already made available for the super-top-secret White Sands experiments, how could the officers of the Roswell atomic bomb unit believe that they had found a "flying disk", and announce that to the world? I have another comment to make on your claim that the famous autopsy footage showed a human handicapped with progeria (chap 16). That has been already discarded by almost everybody on this list, including me, but here is another angle of the story. If your theory were right, it would have been incredibly foolish to release such a film! In any case, the American and British secret services, working together, had plenty of time to block its release in London, discreetly, if they wanted to. We would have heard no more of the film, vague rumors at best. On the other hand, if the purpose was to trash the UFO crash theory, it was highly effective. The Alien Autopsy Film was a scandal, and a disaster, not only for Roswell, but for ufology as a whole. A general criticism, upon which I want to insist, is that there is a serious contradiction between the alleged, very tight secrecy of your claimed experiment, and the known facts. First, lots of human irradiation experiments were made, during many years. This is well established thanks to the ACHRE investigation, that you describe well in your book (pp 160, 161). But nothing surfaced in that investigation about the alleged White Sands experiments. Your explanation is that it was such a shame to carry on with dreadful experiments, similar to those of Unit 731, that it is still the Big Secret that must be hidden at all costs, even today, two generations later. But then, why did so many whistleblowers, from various secret services, reveal that awful secret to you, just asking you to keep silent until 2001, as in the case of Mr Levine? As an aside, if all this is true, which I doubt very much, your "sources" can probably be identified, notably the old lady who worked during several years on special projects at Oak Ridge. But also Mr Levine and his informers, Mr T. of MOD Intelligence, and Mr D., CIA operative; the Colonel; Bill Salter and "an old friend from DOE"; Al Barker, from the Psychological Warfare Center (PWC), and others. The same question arises on reading again the Popular Mechanics article of July 1997, which presented almost the same story, as you admit yourself, with a Horten-Fugo hybrid craft and a Japanese crew. They wrote: "Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site". Who was playing that peculiar game of dubious "revelations"? Only missing in that first version of 1997 are, first the idea that they were handicapped, deformed people (more confusing!), secondly the absurd idea - the horrible experiment - that a plane had been loaded with radioactive material, to irradiate Japanese prisoners in flight. Final note: it looks like your theory integrates as many aspects as possible of the Roswell "file", mixing together everything, from serious testimonies to the most fragile tales. For instance the idea of a Horten aircraft: it is good to "explain" the testimonies (some of which are quite credible) on an arrow - shaped, or horseshoe - shaped alien craft. Gone, the UFO. The radioactive material put on board "explains" the very dubious story of the cameraman. The handicapped Japanese with progeria come in appropriately to "explain" the confusion in Roswell, and the autopsy footage by the same token, etc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Shostak - The Great UFO Debate 'Debate' - From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:37:52 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:34:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Shostak - The Great UFO Debate 'Debate' - >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:18 -0500 >Subject: Shostak - The Great UFO Debate 'Debate' >>Source: Space.Com >>http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html >>14 July 2005 >>The Great UFO Debate >>By Seth Shostak >>SETI Institute >DS: Doctor Shostak >Lehm: Alfred Lehmberg <snip> "A smirk wrapped in a snear." That's a perfect description of Seth Shostak. I only read Shostak for entertainment - and then only rarely. To me, he's the modern equivalent of the old Saturday Night Live skits with the Coneheads (except for his insulting smirk and sneer). The Conehead dad (Dan Akroyd) would open all 6 beers of a 6-pack and try to drink them all at the same time (if I remember it correctly - or maybe it was just one beer still attached to the 6-pack plastic holder - I don't remember), etc... He would be drenched in wasted beer, of course. There would be beer on his face, his shirt, his pants, the carpet - but he would be happy because he was trying to learn the customs of the Earthlings, even though he didn't seem to have a clue as to what he was doing or the correct way to do it. The son had difficulty making friends because of his unusal, coneheaded appearance. So the dad would say to his son, "We're from the planet Remulak, but tell them we are from France." They were clueless, but it was great fun, and the skits feel like classics. If you want a good laugh, read anything by Seth 'Never Brings Anything to the Party but Tries to Drink all 6 Beers Simultaneously' Shostak. I've always presumed that he was simply working on a future night club act for use after he retires from SETI. Ah, those crazy SETI folks... That reminds me of one of my previous lives when I refused to look through Galileo's telescope. I told him I couldn't be bothered as I was expecting a call from God on my cell phone... I mean, why settle for Galileo's hamburger when you can have steak? Why peer at a few little moons when you can talk to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:24:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:00:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Goldstein >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0700 >Subject: Thomas Gold Obituary >Source: Fortean Times - #196 >June 2005 >Necrolog >Controversial physicist Thomas Gold was worthy of fortean >respect. Bob Rickard celebrates the life of this important >'contrarian'. >Thomas Gold >Thomas Gold was that rare thing; a fortean among scientists, >attracted to anomalies in the conventional wisdom and not afraid >to research them beyond the confines of his scientific >disciplines. <snip> >Perhaps his most heretical theory challenged the prevailing >ideas concerning the origin of oil, coal and natural gas. He >proposed that in the depths of the Earth's crust was a second >realm of life, a "deep hot biosphere" in which archaic bacteria >thrived in temperatures well above 100 degrees Celsius, living >off methane and other hydrocarbons six to 10 km (3.7-6.2 miles) >down. This theory was launched in a 1992 paper in the >*Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences* and expanded >in his 1998 book _The Deep Hot Biosphere_. "I'd submitted it to >*Nature* in 1988, but they wouldn't publish it," he said later. >In the traditional view, oil, coal and natural gas are the >residue of dead plants and creatures from swamps and seabeds, >'cooked' under great geological pressure over vast spans of >time. In any case, surface life was not supposed to have >penetrated the Earth more than a few hundred metres. Gold, >however, maintained that oil, coal and natural gas were >incorporated into the Earth at great depths during its early >formation, possibly from meteoric impact as icy meteors are >known to contain masses of hydrocarbons. Instead of dead >creatures turning into hydrocarbons when buried, Gold says the >hydrocarbons are fuel on which the deep creatures live. > >Most Western geologist and petrologists consider Gold's ideas >hugely controversial, insisting that the biogenic theory of >fossil fuel formation adequately explains all observed fossil >fuel deposits. However, recent discoveries of life on the ocean >floors, making use of the normally toxic chemicals from volcanic >vents, and of archaic bacteria found in deep holes from the >Columbia River basalts of Washington to the oil wells of the >North Sea and South African gold mines, all seem to confirm the >basis of Gold's revisions. >Gold firmly believed that his theory accounted for a range of >anomalies, such as the presence of helium in oil (although it >has no affinity with organic material) and the presence of >magnetite in oil. Magnetite is a chemically reduced form of iron >oxide - evidence, says Gold, that microbes have used its oxygen >as they live off the oil, leaving behind tiny grains of >magnetite. Another anomaly that puzzled Gold was obvious in >retrospect: that all over the world oil is being drilled in >sediments that vary region to region, differing in age and >composition. There is no sedimentary material that is uniform to >all oilfields and yet oil is fairly consistent whatever its >provenance. These led him to the conclusion that oil might not >be derived from organic matter but might have a single, more >consistent and therefore much older origin. > >Between 1986 and 1993, Gold's ideas were tested by deep drilling >in a meteoric crater in Sweden called the Siljan Ring (*FT* >correspondent Sven Rosen was quick to tell us that this >perfectly circular formation had dragon legends associated with >it.) Below the crater, at a depth of 5-7km (3-4.3 miles) were >solid granite beds. They had crystallised out of molten lava and >therefore should not contain any organic remains, yet they >yielded 80 barrels of natural oil. Detractors claimed the oil >must have seeped down from higher levels - yet, as Gold >answered, the shale beds of that area "were nowhere deeper than >300 meters, [984ft] while I was down at 6.7 kilometers [4.2 >miles]". >Gold says the first core samples reached him in Mallorca at a >weekend when all the facilities were shut and he had to >improvise a test. Using hot water and kitchen detergent as a >solvent and kitchen tissue roll as a 'chromatogram', he >separated metallic solids from the sludge. To test for iron he >unscrewed the catches off a kitchen cabinet to hold under some >aluminum foil holding liquid sludge. The grains of magnetite >formed in a magnetic field. >Since then, Russian petroleum geologists have reported finding >oil in wells drilled more than 5km (3 miles) deep in the central >part of the crystalline Baltic Shield and they have credited >Gold with inspiring them to look there. More than 300 deep wells >are under way in Russian Tartarstan and others in Vietnam's >giant offshore White Tiger field, all reported to be productive. >One important consequence of Gold's deep hot biosphere is still >reverberating in the realm of oil production and international >finance. The biogenic theory of oil production and international >finance. The biogenic theory of oil led to the belief that it >would eventually 'run out', which is what is keeping oil prices >artificially high. If Gold is correct, the reserves of deep >natural oil are vastly in excess of the 'normal' quantities >estimated by the gas and petroleum industry. But Gold has more >good news: in a recent interview he claimed that "some >geologists agree that fields are refilling themselves, though >they won't openly admit it." Gold believes that his can only be >because the reduction in pressure in the higher reservoir is >drawing more up from deeper layers. <snip> >British astronomer and physicist, born Vienna, Austria, 22 May >1920; died Ithaca, NY, 22 June 2004, aged 84 Terry Colvin's posting of Gold's petroleum theory raised some interesting food for thought in my hungry mind. As regards our energy future, unfortunately it is going to take longer than I had initially had hoped for our use of hydrogen in automobiles to become practical. The same goes for wide use of home hydrogen fuel cells for our energy needs. Creating hydrogen requires great energy and even using new nuclear reactors to create the electricity to provide hydrogen is not cost effective. We already have growing tension with China regarding finite supplies of petroleum. If Gold's theory proves correct we may have a much greater abundance of petroleum than previously estimated. I want to make enquiries in the energy field to find out if they believe deep wells may tap into that possible abundance. Prior to this article I had not seen this discussed in our energy future plans. Recovering oil shale, as in Canada, is expensive and it is a dirty form of petroleum compared to liquid oil. Coal gassification has large possibilities but it is an entirely new technology to be developed. I want to find out what the petroleum industry thinks of Gold's theories and if deep drilling or the possibility of the backfilling of known oil fields are realistic to help our energy future.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:02:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:55:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:37:15 -0400 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>Source: eMediaWire >>>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >>>July 9, 2005 >>>Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >>>Convocation Hall University of Toronto >><snip> >If you want to put the entire scientific community entirely >off to UFO matters, this is how to do it. Hi Larry, Tell me what to think Larry. Tell me what's politically acceptable within Ufology and I'll think it, I'll believe it. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:41:24 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:08:14 -0400 Subject: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' Robert Durant has authorized me to post his list of questions on Nick Redfern's book, Body Snatchers in the Desert. Here they are, following my own list of questions, posted earlier: 1. Is the Redfern flying device that crashed and gave rise to the Roswell testimony a credible piece of flying machinery? By Redfern's account, it consisted of either a huge balloon or a collection of balloons that provided lift for the payload. The payload was a flying-wing controllable glider that may or may not have been powered by a propeller. The glider carried four Japanese pilots of very small stature and weight, but four nevertheless, plus at least some additional equipment. What record is there of such a device? Would it make any sense to an aeronautical engineer? In July 1947, what balloon or collection of balloons could have lifted all that weight? Note also that this device was designed, per Redfern's story, to fly at least high enough to consistently use the jet stream winds, and this means at least 25,000 feet. Thus the device would need to include heating and oxygen supplies sufficient for flight lasting several hours in the case of a test, or several days in the case of use as a weapon against the Soviet Union, which is what Redfern says was the goal. Or so I think. But that is the kind of question that readers should be asking as they scan the pages of this book. 2. How does the description of the device, either pristine or after a crash, comport with the record of Roswell witness descriptions? I refer here to the testimony that describes the material, not the elaborate "I saw the aliens rolling around in the sand" stories like those of Kauffman, Ragsdale and Dennis. For example, the testimony of Sergeant Lewis Rickett and Jesse Marcel, Jr., to name only two. Note that much witness testimony has been invoked by both the Mogul and the Spaceship proponents. Will that testimony also fit the Redfern thesis? Seems to me that if one is to explain Roswell in Redfern's terms, the extensive, thoroughly documented witness testimony must be addressed in detail. How well does Redfern accomplish that task? 3. The recently published book Project Beta by Greg Bishop recounts the systematic "disinformation" of the late Paul Bennewitz by Air Force and Defence Intelligence Agency personnel. Bennewitz was told that an alien base existed under Archuleta Peak near Dulce, New Mexico, that they had a treaty with the U.S. government, that horrible experiments on humans were being carried out, and so forth. These stories were spread far and wide, becoming part of the belief system of UFO enthusiasts. Why this was done has not been explained. One explanation is that it was aimed at Soviet spies in order to waste their efforts. Others, including me, think it was part of a decades-long program to keep legislators and journalists away from the UFO issue. Eventually, Bennewitz was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility and lost control of his business. Others who have been victimized by federal government "disinformation" or attempts at disinformation include Jacques Vallee, Linda Howe, William Moore, Jenny Randles and several movie producers. On February 28, 2005 Sergeant Richard Doty, the main Air Force intelligence agent assigned to disinform and destabilize Bennewitz, appeared on the Art Bell radio program and detailed his role in deceiving the UFO research community. I am giving you a very compressed summary of a very long list of instances of such interference with UFO researchers, going back to the early 1950s. My point is simply this - when reading Redfern's account of how he came to learn about the Japanese "paperclip" program that he claims formed the real basis of the Roswell Incident, does the reader ever think that perhaps Redfern has joined the dismal line of ufologists who have been deliberately disinformed? Is there anything fishy about how he was first approached? About how the additional whistle-blowers "reluctantly" confessed?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Science Cannot Be Stopped From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:19:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:19:28 -0400 Subject: Science Cannot Be Stopped Source: News24.Com - South Africa http://tinyurl.com/a7lac 15/07/2005 'Science Cannot Be Stopped' by George Claassen News24 Columnist Real life is sometimes stranger than fiction, yet fiction quite often provides more accessible insight and clarity about human behaviour than scientists can hope to achieve. The reason is that scientists too regularly forget how to tell the exciting story of their discoveries in laymen's terms. The sometimes astonishing, even downright rude and uninformed reaction by some readers of this column, who absolutely refuse to believe in reason and scientific findings and rather prefer to continue their faith in pseudoscientific nonsense, has led me to the world of fiction to emphasise the importance of reason in our lives. We are the only species on Earth possessing the faculty of reason, yet it is the most under-utilised tool and mechanism in our armour to keep superstition and other absurdities at bay. In Goethe's Faust Mephistopheles disguises himself in Faust's academic attire so that he could answer the questions of a fawning student whom Faust refuses to speak to. Strange beliefs Mephistopheles's muttered advice reminds me of all the people still believing in astrology, homeopathy, auras around us that "influence" our moods and actions, telepathy, telekinese, bleeding statues, spoon benders, telephone calls from the dead, abduction by extraterrestrials, numerology, the prophecies of Nostradamus or any other so-called prophet, Big Foot, reiki, people recovering their hidden past lives, comets that can influence our lives, energy fields through which "experts" can heal others, prophets who can cure the blind, deaf and ill, UFO- believers (read Carl Sagan's The Demon-haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark for a more comprehensive list of strange beliefs). Scoff at all knowledge and despise Reason and science, those flowers of mankind. Let the father of all lies With dazzling necromancy make you blind, Then I'll have you unconditionally. (the translation is that of Carlyle F MacIntyre). People simply do not believe in accidents when something happens to them. They must find an obscure reason why it happened to them and quite often give their religious fancy the blame ("it's God's will," is the most often heard explanation), although they have no evidence of it. The philosopher David Hume said, "In proportion as any man's course of life is governed by accident, we always find that he increases in superstition". A recent example of this mindset of rejection of scientific findings because it clashes with our pre-conceived beliefs, occurred when scientists from the Digital Evolution Laboratory at Michigan State University in East Lansing used a software programme called Avida to simulate Darwin's evolutionary theory. Darwin's theory In a fascinating article, "Testing Darwin", in the February 2005 edition of Discover, Carl Zimmer writes that Avida "makes it possible to watch the random mutation and natural selection of digital organisms unfold over millions of generations. In the process, it is beginning to shed light on some of the biggest questions of evolution." One of the age-old arguments against evolution is that a complex system such as the human eye or ear could not have evolved from simpler precursors. "To test Darwin's idea that complex systems evolve from simpler precursors, the Avida team set up rewards for simpler operations and bigger rewards for more complex ones. The researchers set up an experiment in which organisms replicate for 16 000 generations. They then repeated the experiment 50 times", writes Zimmer, whose brilliant book, Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea, is one of the best ever written on the subject. "Avida beat the odds. In 23 of the 50 trials, evolution produced organisms that could carry out the equals operation." After the Avida researchers, that included biologists, published their findings, creationists tried their utmost to discredit the scientific findings. One can understand their fears: the Avida results proved once and for all that their arguments that life was designed by an intelligent designer because complex things like the eye could never have evolved, were wrong. "What we show is that there are irreducibly complex things and they can evolve," one of the scientists, Chris Adami of Caltech, told Zimmer. His article - and for that matter his book - should be read by every person still clinging to their absurd anti-evolution propagations, despite the evidence scientists produce for evolution every day. "Inspect every piece of pseudoscience and you will find a security blanket, a thumb to suck, a skirt to hold," wrote one of the most prolific science writers, Isaac Asimov. Science cannot be stopped, not by superstition, not by fear, not by creationists and pseudoscientists readily providing the security blankets, the thumbs to suck, and the skirts of creationism and unscientific therapies and beliefs to hold on. It is time reason reclaims its rightful place in human endeavours. Without it, ignorance reigns. Or are we not living in the 21st century? # George Claassen is science editor of Die Burger and teaches science journalism at the graduate school of journalism of the University of Stellenbosch, South Africa. Send your comments to George or discuss this column now in our debating forum. Disclaimer: News24 encourages freedom of speech and the expression of diverse views. The views of columnists published
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:19:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - Smith >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>civilizations, >What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canadas first >major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way >beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >about UFO's. You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry because ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. This conference is just one in a long line of such examples. We have a cast of characters with such bizarre, conspiratorial ideas that there is little hope for the whole thing. Best we start a new society/group from scratch without any mention of the term UFO to avoid the loony crowd and hopefully we will get some respect. I think that you should just let them have their fun because none of it will make a bit of difference. UFOology's name is dirt right now. But I am dissappointed Mr. Velez will not be showing some Mexican "fleet" videos or Mr. Lehmberg not doing his wandering minstrel stuff there. Add to the fun!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:51:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:37:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:55:32 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - >>>><UFO-UpDates.nul>Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 >>>>20:37:15 -0400 >>>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>Source: eMediaWire >>>>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/7/emw259556.htm >>>>July 9, 2005 >>>>Toronto Ontario Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25, 2005, at >>>>Convocation Hall University of Toronto >>><snip> >>If you want to put the entire scientific community entirely >>off to UFO matters, this is how to do it. >Tell me what to think Larry. Tell me what's politically >acceptable within Ufology and I'll think it, I'll believe it. I >shall embrace it and absorb it into my philosophy. I don't want >anybody shouting at me for my views and I do want to believe the >"right things". What are they? Wow, Mr. Hatch! You're witness to a lengthy haiku of word economy here <an uncharacteristically furious golf clapping is heard!>! I was all set to drone on _tediously_ for 1800 to 2000 words regarding what Mr. Miller captured in 50 flat! It seems I am justified in forgiving him for torching our Whitehouse. Yea
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:41:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >Tell me what to think Larry. Tell me what's politically >acceptable within Ufology and I'll think it, I'll believe it. I >shall embrace it and absorb it into my philosophy. I don't want >anybody shouting at me for my views and I do want to believe the >"right things". What are they? >Stuart Miller Ah, cripes, here we go! Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! Nobody is telling anybody what to think! Only to actually/think/ and use powers of discrimination before accepting claims. Only to require fair evidence before believing claims. And, if we don't do this, how can we expect to be taken seriously? Larry made some valid points. They show the shakiness of some of the beliefs in the 'exopolitics' camp. Counter them with facts,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:30:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:47:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >>What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >>why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >>'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >>these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canadas first >>major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way >>beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >>about UFO's. >You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry because >ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. This >conference is just one in a long line of such examples. >We have a cast of characters with such bizarre, conspiratorial >ideas that there is little hope for the whole thing. >Best we start a new society/group from scratch without any >mention of the term UFO to avoid the loony crowd and hopefully >we will get some respect. <snip> James: If you want a new construct to replace "ufology," you might
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:35:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:49:17 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Reynolds >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >To Nick Redfern, EBK and All, >I have now read your book "Body Snatchers in the Desert", and I >am sorry to say that I have more criticisms to make... Gildas: Excellent, point-by-point rebuttal of some Nick Redfern material in his new book. This is what ufology should do: question everything until a matter is resolved one way or another.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:41:36 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:50:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >Best we start a new society/group from scratch without any >mention of the term UFO to avoid the loony crowd and hopefully >we will get some respect. I've long felt this way! It's one of the reasons I quit MUFON to develop the Canadian Aerial Anomalies Research Society, which Chris Styles and I founded/incorporated in Nova Scotia in April
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:55:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:11:40 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:35:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >>Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>I have now read your book "Body Snatchers in the Desert", and I >>am sorry to say that I have more criticisms to make... >Excellent, point-by-point rebuttal of some Nick Redfern >material in his new book. >This is what ufology should do: question everything until a >matter is resolved one way or another. >Nicely done... for now. Let me second that. Gildas has done a very fine job of zeroing in on relevant questions and issues and has expressed his concerns in a commendably collegial voice. I look forward to more of the same - a productive discussion and debate in which matters are addressed and clarified by thoughtful, informed participants.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:46:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>>civilizations, >>What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >>why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >>'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >>these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canadas first >>major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way >>beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >>about UFO's. > >You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry because >ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. This >conference is just one in a long line of such examples. The claim that ufology is a "laughing stock" because of someone's opinions about ET contact is no less preposterous than those opinions themselves. There's always a wide range of opinions on any controversial subject and UFOs are no exception. People who claimed that apricot pits were a cure for cancer didn't make oncology a laughing stock. Absurd "flying machine" contraptions that people tried to get airborn at the turn of the century didn't make aeronautics a laughing stock, although they did provide a lot of amusing footage for silent movie clips. If ufology is a laughing stock,it's only because the government and media elites decided it should be presented that way to the public. These are the same elites, it should always be noted,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:33 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:49:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Tell me what to think Larry. Tell me what's politically >>acceptable within Ufology and I'll think it, I'll believe it. I >>shall embrace it and absorb it into my philosophy. I don't want >>anybody shouting at me for my views and I do want to believe the >>"right things". What are they? >>Stuart Miller >Ah, cripes, here we go! >Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! Nobody is telling >anybody what to think! Only to actually/think/ and use powers of >discrimination before accepting claims. Only to require fair >evidence before believing claims. And, if we don't do this, how >can we expect to be taken seriously? >Larry made some valid points. They show the shakiness of some of >the beliefs in the 'exopolitics' camp. Counter them with facts, >if you can, instead of with sarcasm about his telling you what >to think and believe. I wholeheartedly agree with this and Eugene's initial post. `Exobiology' is a total crock, but if you want to believe it that is your right. It is total horse hockey to suggest that when people are asked to think critically and beware of frauds and con-men that they are being told what to think. Your argument also cuts both ways: Are you telling me what I should think, that I should accept Execrobiology without
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:43:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:33:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:41:24 +0200 >Subject: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Robert Durant has authorized me to post his list of questions on >Nick Redfern's book, Body Snatchers in the Desert. Here they >are, following my own list of questions, posted earlier: Gildas, I sent answers to Bob's 4 questions on 24 June, 5.29 PM. They're below: >1. Is the Redfern flying device that crashed and gave rise to >the Roswell testimony a credible piece of flying machinery? >By Redfern's account, it consisted of either a huge balloon or a >collection of balloons that provided lift for the payload. >The payload was a flying-wing controllable glider that may or >may not have been powered by a propeller. The glider carried >four Japanese pilots of very small stature and weight, but four >nevertheless, plus at least some additional equipment. >What record is there of such a device? >Would it make any sense to an aeronautical engineer? >In July 1947, what balloon or collection of balloons could have >lifted all that weight? Note also that this device was designed, >per Redfern's story, to fly at least high enough to consistently >use the jet stream winds, and this means at least 25,000 feet. >Thus the device would need to include heating and oxygen >supplies sufficient for flight lasting several hours in the case >of a test, or several days in the case of use as a weapon >against the Soviet Union, which is what Redfern says was the >goal. Or so I think. But that is the kind of question that >readers should be asking as they scan the pages of this book. Answer 1: I was able to prove that in the closing stages of the War, the Japanese were planning to build huge balloons, underneath which would be attached a gondola big enough to hold 4 guys. They were to be approx 5 feet tall, because weight, space, etc., was a premium. US newspapers of the day cited in the book talk about this and references to "death defying Japanese" manning the "pressurized gondolas", which would be equipped with water, food and oxygen tanks to afford protection for high-altitude flights to the US - to a height of around 30,000 feet as the balloons undertook their 4-day flight to the US. So this is a prime example of small men, in an advanced, pressurized gondola attached to a huge balloon system. Quite Roswell like, I think. These manned-balloon flights were referenced in US newspapers in 45. >2. How does the description of the device, either pristine or >after a crash, comport with the record of Roswell witness >descriptions? I refer here to the testimony that describes the >material, not the elaborate "I saw the aliens rolling around in >the sand" stories like those of Kauffman, Ragsdale and Dennis. >For example, the testimony of Sergeant Lewis Rickett and Jesse >Marcel, Jr., to name only two. Note that much witness testimony >has been invoked by both the Mogul and the Spaceship proponents. >Will that testimony also fit the Redfern thesis? >Seems to me that if one is to explain Roswell in Redfern's >terms, the extensive, thoroughly documented witness testimony >must be addressed in detail. How well does Redfern accomplish >that task? Answer 2: The scenario I have is actually not that different to the ET theory and witnesses. We both talk about more than one crash site, both talk about bodies found, both talk about military cordons, both talk about a cover-up. In fact, really the only major difference is the interpretation of what the people were looking at when they came across the materials, not whether they saw something or not. >3. The recently published book Project Beta by Greg Bishop >recounts the systematic "disinformation" of the late Paul >Bennewitz by Air Force and Defence Intelligence Agency >personnel. >Bennewitz was told that an alien base existed under Archuleta >Peak near Dulce, New Mexico, that they had a treaty with the >U.S. government, that horrible experiments on humans were being >carried out, and so forth. These stories were spread far and >wide, becoming part of the belief system of UFO enthusiasts. >Why this was done has not been explained. One explanation is >that it was aimed at Soviet spies in order to waste their >efforts. >Others, including me, think it was part of a decades-long >program to keep legislators and journalists away from the UFO >issue. >Eventually, Bennewitz was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility >and lost control of his business. Others who have been >victimized by federal government "disinformation" or attempts at >disinformation include Jacques Vallee, Linda Howe, William >Moore, Jenny Randles and several movie producers. On February >28, 2005 Sergeant Richard Doty, the main Air Force intelligence >agent assigned to disinform and destabilize Bennewitz, appeared >on the Art Bell radio program and detailed his role in deceiving >the UFO research community. I am giving you a very compressed >summary of a very long list of instances of such interference >with UFO researchers, going back to the early 1950s. My point is >simply this - when reading Redfern's account of how he came to >learn about the Japanese "paperclip" program that he claims >formed the real basis of the Roswell Incident, does the reader >ever think that perhaps Redfern has joined the dismal line of >ufologists who have been deliberately disinformed? Is there >anything fishy about how he was first approached? About how the >additional whistle-blowers "reluctantly" confessed? Answer 3: I have never disputed this possibility (privately or publicly) that I was disinformed. And I never will until - or unless - we get ultimate verification one way or the other. I don't _think_ I was disinformed, but I am not so deep into myself and ego-driven like a lot of researchers that I am not willing to accept other scenarios. You will see when you get the book that I began this investigation in 1996 and it's now June 2005. So I waited 10 years before I went to print almost, purely because I _did_ wonder if this was disinformation. However, the sources I interviewed were able to direct me to files in various archives that - even if disinfo - they would have to have inside knowledge of where to find the files. This include records on experiments on "mutations at extreme altitudes" in summer 47; obscure Kirtland AFB files that have a bearing on the Kingman story; much more. Of course, going to various archives and just hoping to find something and not knowing where to look would be an incredible - if not impossible - task, presuming of course there was anything to find! The fact that they supplied - time and again - file names, dates, authors, even record box numbers to look in, suggests they are genuine. Plus (although this is not spelled out in the book) I have seen data that would be extremely hard to fake such as tax records confirming their employments with DoD, Oak Ridge, etc. Pictures taken at Christmas parties on base, etc., where it's clear you are looking at 40 or 50 year old pictures of the same people. >4. If it turns out that there is nothing of substance behind the >new explanation for Roswell, will that help or hurt the attempt >to get elected federal officials and mainstream journalists to >investigate the Roswell Incident? Answer 4: It won't matter - the investigation has begun, albeit quietly and semi-officially re the data in the book. I'm already
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:02:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:30:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >James: >If you want a new construct to replace "ufology," you might >visit Kyle King's blog - http://uforeflections.blogspot.com - >for his take on this and his "neology" movement. Now the article 'UFO reflections' in Kyle King's Blog is an example of something that should be taken seriously! It's an example of what researchers/investigators in this field should be trying to "engage media to use all of its resources to publicly call" support for, instead of trying to get it to call for complete disclosure of the probably non-existing evidence hidden by the government of the "the [validated] presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated civilizations." Demanding accountability and complete transparency of the government as to its knowledge of UFO's and the results of previous investigations done by the authorities is not the same thing as mounting a massive campaign to get them to release 'evidence' of presupposed notions based upon the unsupported claims of "whistleblowers/contactees." There's a difference between asking for the truth and asking for what we presuppose to /be/ the truth, a big difference between asking for what the government knows/has concerning UFO's and asking for such things as the evidence it is hiding regarding the "the presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated civilizations." It's proven hard enough to get support for the first approach (and to be taken seriously when we do this), so how can mobilizing a massive effort along the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:55:02 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:05:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >Ah, cripes, here we go! >Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! Nobody is telling >anybody what to think! Really? Directly not, that's true, but by such a vindictive, overwhelmingly unpleasant response, you will have certainly put off from attending any impressionable person reading your comments. And instead of strutting your "right on" credentials, how about instead, offering your support to a fellow countryman's efforts to get a major Ufological conference off the ground in Canada. Or have I by chance hit the nail on the head and are there other factors flying around in the background? >Only to actually/think/ and use powers of discrimination >before accepting claims. Only to require fair evidence before >believing claims. And, if we don't do this, how can we expect >to be taken seriously? Superbly stated. Only problem is, you don't seem to want folks to attend, or at least are trying to put them off, so depriving them in the first place of hearing "the evidence" and indeed then being able to make a judgement for themselves. >Larry made some valid points. They show the shakiness of some >of the beliefs in the 'exopolitics' camp. Counter them with >facts, if you can, instead of with sarcasm about his telling > you what to think and believe. If only you'd give me the chance! Unfortunately, in relation to you, sarcasm it is. Here you go pal - here are Larry's facts that you so earnestly suggest I, errr, counter: >No disagreement here [burp!] >Here is the list of speakers: >- Steven G. Bassett - Keynote Speaker - from Washington USA - > UFO Lobbyist/candidate for US Congress. (rotsa ruck.) >- Canada�s Stanton T. Friedman Nuclear Physicist >- Richard Dolan - USA - author of UFOs & National Security > State >- Paola Harris - Italy -author of Connecting the Dots: Making > Sense of the UFO Phenomenon >What is Stanton Friedman doing with this set of clowns? You >couldn't pay me enough to show my face there. >Four major issues will be addressed: >1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; >As per the above and... >>2. Secret and radically new technologies related to the >>energy and propulsion systems used by extraterrestrial has >>been sequestered by undisclosed American government >>agencies ... >I love that. Variously stated, it always comes down to >free/unlimited energy, as if the Japanese (just as an example) >would not be crawling all over it. >>These new energy sources will ultimately eliminate the >>need for fossil fuels. The public will demand its use >>soon after disclosure is achieved. >If you want to put the entire scientific community entirely >off to UFO matters, this is how to do it. >If indeed the Guv' wanted to hide some alien technology >(something I kinda doubt), they do no better than to toss up >a BS barrage like the above. There's no real need to do so >however; just stand aside and let the clowns blow the smoke. >I see MUFON Central Canada is co-organizer. Aren't they a >little, uh, embarrassed? You know what I'm going to ask, don't you. Which facts would you like me to counter? The burp?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:55:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:13:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Tell me what to think Larry. Tell me what's politically >>acceptable within Ufology and I'll think it, I'll believe it. I >>shall embrace it and absorb it into my philosophy. I don't want >>anybody shouting at me for my views and I do want to believe the >>"right things". What are they? >>Stuart Miller >Ah, cripes, here we go! No, Sir. With all respect. It appears here _you_ go. And by yourself at the start, too. >Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! That's not entirely accurate. If you use a little imagination and know a littleList history you can work out that that is _exactly_ what's going on by way of intimation, use of a sneer as a meme vehicle, and a very thin, almost acceptable, jocularity that speaks volumes about what his readership should be thinking... thoughts along the lines of those that won't provoke one of those smirky sneers, for instance. >Nobody is telling anybody what to think! See above... >Only to actually/think/ and use powers of discrimination before >accepting claims. Right - I wonder what you might mean by this given the wide divergence of what 'proper' thinking might be, even what it is, the assumptions that have to be made in its regard, the attendant presumptions, widely different experience levels, amount of education - not always a good thing when used as a limitation and not as a springboard, IMO - and how much koolaid you've had... just to start. >Only to require fair evidence before believing claims. You mean 'proof', don't you? It seems to me there is really no such thing, only evidence one accepts as proof. Stanton Friedman may accept as "fair evidence" what your friendly-neighborhood and garden-variety klasskurtxian regards as evidence not _near_ 'fair' enough. You can see the problems that arise. >And, if we don't do this, how can we expect to be taken >seriously? The problem, taking what you're saying at face value, is that you skip to a tune that is not your own, when it should be your music and your tune that you're skipping to. You suggest, it seems, that the only thing standing in the way of coming to grips with this UFO thing is that we make ourselves 'respectable', whatever that may mean. I suspect that there is no amount of respectability you could generate for it that would provide for the solution you expect as a result, and that there are levels and facets of our aggregate ability to crack the surface of this thing that have _nothing_ to do with a 'respectable' ufology and everything to do with usurped authority and individual reaction to the ultimate sedition of what we (...you too?) all feel is out there... >Larry made some valid points. No, he didn't. He couched his usual sneer in a patented pork- belch and beer-fart smirk and got upbraided for it, a tad, in a cogent manner of some charm and brevity. >They show the shakiness of some of the beliefs in the >'exopolitics' camp. For my money, the concept of a statesman-like 'political approach' to "another country" of ETs or ETIs is the soul of civilized rationality, forgetting for a moment the hotly debated quality of _some_ of the persons involved, the caliber of _some_ of the persons _most_ opposed, and the aggregate goal of _all_ the persons so engaged. I don't think Stephen G. Bassett is to be easily sneered at, and Doctor Salla has been a model of comportment here on the List and elsewhere. I don't believe Victor Viggiani is entirely revolted by the concept. Maybe you have a better idea, past irate invective and a bellicose manner, right off the top. >Counter them with facts,`if you can, Where as we are to be satisfied with your churlish demand for same and ignore the suspect and combative manner in which you demand it? You can pretty much pick a fight or contribute to the team... nes't ce pas? I suspect you'd be happier, taking you at face value... that you're a genuine truth-seeker like many on this List... with the latter than you would be with the former? >instead of with sarcasm about his telling you what to think and >believe. Reading between the lines is required, sometimes, Mr. Frison. Mr. Hatch got off light, and may have even learned something in the exchange. I've known _of_ him awhile... I'm betting, after he blew through his snit, he _did_. He's a clever guy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:05:19 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:15:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry >because ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. Then it is entirely appropriate that you are the clown prince in this "smirking" circus.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:22:34 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:27:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:33 +0000 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >>Ah, cripes, here we go! >>Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! Nobody is telling >>anybody what to think! Only to actually/think/ and use powers >>of discrimination before accepting claims. Only to require >>fair evidence before believing claims. And, if we don't do > >this, how can we expect to be taken seriously? >>Larry made some valid points. They show the shakiness of some >>of the beliefs in the 'exopolitics' camp. Counter them with >>facts, if you can, instead of with sarcasm about his telling >>you what to think and believe. >I wholeheartedly agree with this and Eugene's initial post. >`Exobiology' is a total crock, but if you want to believe it >that is your right. You're very gracious. >It is total horse hockey to suggest that when people are asked >to think critically and beware of frauds and con-men that they >are being told what to think. Those are very serious allegations about the speakers taking part in this conference. Can you back those claims up or are Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Run about to receive a phone call? >Your argument also cuts both ways: Are you telling me what I >should think, that I should accept Execrobiology without >criticizing it and/or its proponents? I can't follow your argument here. I can't quite see how you've managed to twist around what I said in order to produce this convoluted question, based apparently on something I didn't say.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:24:49 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:32:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:16:17 -0400 >Subject: Re: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:31:34 -0700 >>Subject: Exopolitics Institute A Fantasy Island? ><snip> >>The way I see it, he has created something of a Fantasy Island >>because he uses quite a few discredited whistleblowers and >>contactees to form his picture of what is going on. >It would be interesting if Mike or others would post a list, by >name, of all whistleblowers accused of being discredited. First, I recommend everyone study Dr. Salla's papers, available via a link at: http://www.exopolitics.org and also at a new site with the name of galaticdiplomacy. Discredited whistleblowers _and_ contactees are identified as sources. (Click on et typology for a full picture of the sources used.). When I sign on at the library for a two hour stint on the computer, I will start getting into detail. Basicly, Dr. Salla proposes two general categories: the ETs that are working, in a somewhat negative manner, with the military/intelligence complex and the good guys who contact specially chosen people. (He recently identified, for a poster at his group, names like George Adamski and Howard Menger!) Whistleblowers have included Michael Wolf, Dan Burisch, Charles Hall and others. >It would be of further interest, if each UFO researcher on this >List would then offer their opinion, by way of a simple yes/no >vote, as to whether they feel each discredited whistleblower is >actually discredited in their view. The "vote" would be tallied, >and posted along with the list of supposed discredited >whistleblowers. >Whoever does the tally would confirm that each voter is indeed >an accomplished researcher, but who voted which way would not be >posted on this List. >Such a vote might be of value to the folks pursuing the >exopolitics agenda, and would be helpful for those of us who are >not UFO researchers to follow what is going on in the >exopolitics arena. I regard efforts to bring about full >disclosure critical to the future of this planet. The idea of a poll sounds great! I'll respond in detail to Michael when I get a chance. (Not ignoring you Michael at the moment. Still have that other unfinished business re:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:33:34 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:55:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >The claim that ufology is a "laughing stock" because of >someone's opinions about ET contact is no less preposterous than >those opinions themselves. Not true! Ufology _is_, sadly, to a great extent, a laughing stock! Nothing preposterious about that opinion. That doesn't mean, however, that there isn't (and hasn't always been) competent investigators/researchers doing quality work - that Ufology has nothing to be proud of. It certainly does have a lot going for it. However, the truth is that, for the most part, the media, the scientists, etc. don't recognize it and laugh at it. Sad, unfortunate, but true! >People who claimed that apricot pits were a cure for cancer >didn't make oncology a laughing stock. True ... but 'oncology' didn't already have most of the media, scientists, etc. laughing at it. It was already considered a valid field of study. Finding a cure for cancer is not something that too many people laugh about! >If ufology is a laughing stock,it's only because the government >and media elites decided it should be presented that way to the >public. No... it's also because the field is rampant and rife with incompetent researchers/investigators who have no clue as to how to conduct a proper, objective investigation or do valid research, who have no clue as to how to collect and collate data, and who have no clue as to how to interpret the results of any data or evidence gathered. And it's also because the field is walking away with fools, psychotics, con men, frauds, 'new age' channellers, etc., etc., etc. The above-mentioned 'elites' have certainly done their share of damage but (as larry Hatch put it) "the clowns" have done, and currently are doing, more damage to the field than is anything
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 16 Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:49:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:56:56 -0400 Subject: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:01:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:24:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >If ufology is a laughing stock,it's only because the government >and media elites decided it should be presented that way to the >public. These are the same elites, it should always be noted, >who so easily convinced the public that Iraq's nonexistent >weapons of mass destruction were a justification for a bloody >and costly war. They are as good at convincing the public that >laughable claims are true as they are at convincing people that >serious issues are a joke. I see. We're not really a gang of nutters, it's just that world governments are conspiring to make us _look_ like a gang of nutters! This is about as convincing as the argument that when ufologists are caught out by simple hoax, it must be as a result of a government disinformation plot. What they mean is "I am so smart that it takes the resources of an entire government to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:12:01 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:25:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:55:27 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 ">Ah, cripes, here we go! No, Sir. With all respect. It appears here _you_ go. And by yourself at the start, too. >Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! That's not entirely accurate. If you use a little imagination and know a littleList history you can work out that that is _exactly_ what's going on by way of intimation, use of a sneer as a meme vehicle, and a very thin, almost acceptable, jocularity that speaks volumes about what his readership should be thinking... thoughts along the lines of those that won't provoke one of those smirky sneers, for instance. >Nobody is telling anybody what to think! See above... >Only to actually/think/ and use powers of discrimination before >accepting claims. Right - I wonder what you might mean by this given the wide divergence of what 'proper' thinking might be, even what it is, the assumptions that have to be made in its regard, the attendant presumptions, widely different experience levels, amount of education - not always a good thing when used as a limitation and not as a springboard, IMO - and how much koolaid you've had... just to start. >Only to require fair evidence before believing claims. You mean 'proof', don't you? It seems to me there is really no such thing, only evidence one accepts as proof. Stanton Friedman may accept as "fair evidence" what your friendly-neighborhood and garden-variety klasskurtxian regards as evidence not _near_ 'fair' enough. You can see the problems that arise." Your long post is, in my opinion, nothing more than a rant! If I had intended to mean things like 'proof' then I would have said 'proof'. If you have "to wonder" what I mean by "actually thinking and using powers of discrimination" then there's no point in discussing with you any further, and I won't. Your entire response can be wrapped up in two words and one phrase that you used - "imagination," "assumptions," and "Reading between the lines." I've been a member of this List for years and get its posts every day. I'm familiar with every person on it through reading their views over this period of time, or as familiar as anyone can get through this media. But I try to stick to facts instead of "imagination," assumptions," and "reading between the lines." If everyone in the field of Ufology did this as well, the field wouldn't be in the mess it's in, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your "assumptions" are entirely your own as to what I mean and, I think, based on your overuse of "imagination" and "reading between the lines." From where I stand, you completely missed the gist of what I was getting at! Your post is a perfect example of how, when a serious discussion about things in Ufology is attempted, it always eventually starts to spiral and lift off into the 'way out there.' It can't stay focused on the facts. How can it, when "imagination,"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:21:49 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:26:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:49:02 -0700 >Subject: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >on link below: Well, that changes everything! If the information is coming from the guys from Arcturus, then count me in. Where do I sign up? I just didn't trust the Zeta Reticulians and the bunch from the Pleiades.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:23:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:30:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:55:32 -0700 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >>These new energy sources will ultimately eliminate the >>need for fossil fuels. The public will demand its use >>soon after disclosure is achieved. >If you want to put the entire scientific community entirely off >to UFO matters, this is how to do it. >If indeed the Guv' wanted to hide some alien technology >(something I kinda doubt), they do no better than to toss up a >BS barrage like the above. There's no real need to do so >however; just stand aside and let the clowns blow the smoke. Just as abductees stand firm on their reports, those of us in the extreme advanced technology harassment arena stand firm as well. While we haven't knowingly experienced "free energy", we _know_ that abductee-report-class technology exists, and is in the hands of some group of human beings, who use it on us with impunity because of ridicule, as above, and in the other similar postings. The perpetrators are "laughin' ", as the saying goes, because they know "no one" will believe it's happening. We know it is _not_ poltergeists either, first because the targeting is carefully timed and tailored to activity of the target, and secondly, because it is inseparably woven into a campaign by local, nameable, visible human beings to destroy every facet of the target's relationships, accomplishments, and life, chiefly fuelled by horrific lies (the target is a drug dealer, prostitute, thief, ex-con, pedophile, for examples.) The secret is _group_ effort. If a _group_ harasses someone, officials simply won't believe that, either. Both the advanced technology and human harassment follow the target no matter where the target tries to move. It goes on for decades. That is not characteristic of poltergeist cases. When I meet folks who have ridiculed the idea that government or some powerful group could be hiding "free energy", when such
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Science Cannot Be Stopped - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:51:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:37:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Science Cannot Be Stopped - Dickenson >http://tinyurl.com/a7lac >'Science Cannot Be Stopped' >by George Claassen News24 Columnist <snip> >The sometimes astonishing, even downright rude and uninformed >reaction by some readers of this column, who absolutely refuse >to believe in reason and scientific findings and rather prefer >to continue their faith in pseudoscientific nonsense, has led me >to the world of fiction to emphasise the importance of reason in >our lives. <snip> >Mephistopheles's muttered advice reminds me of all the people >still believing in astrology, homeopathy, auras around us that >"influence" our moods and actions, telepathy, telekinese, >bleeding statues, spoon benders, telephone calls from the dead, >abduction by extraterrestrials, numerology, the prophecies of >Nostradamus or any other so-called prophet, Big Foot, reiki, >people recovering their hidden past lives, comets that can >influence our lives, energy fields through which "experts" can >heal others, prophets who can cure the blind, deaf and ill, UFO- >believers (read Carl Sagan's The Demon-haunted World: Science As >a Candle in the Dark for a more comprehensive list of strange >beliefs). <snip> >A recent example of this mindset of rejection of scientific >findings because it clashes with our pre-conceived beliefs, >occurred when scientists from the Digital Evolution Laboratory >at Michigan State University in East Lansing used a software >programme called Avida to simulate Darwin's evolutionary theory. <snip> Hello List, I think George is sounding rather dogmatic and rather desperate. That's a pity, since science - the asking of meaningful questions - indeed cannot be stopped. But there are many in gov't and academia who _want_ to stop people asking inconvenient questions. George too lays out a whole list of things and areas where "no questions are allowed" - which smacks of science dogma: no-go areas. [BTW - that 'Avida' program. Software does what it's written to do - which proves nothing. It reminds me of (I think) NASA software which, it was trumpeted, had reproduced the formation of "black holes". Wrong. The software did what it was told to do. Proving nothing.] Present state of affairs? Science's academics are sitting on somewhat bedraggled laurels while in almost total confusion and ignorance of the universe: "Eventually they [our current theories] will all be shown to be wrong." - John D. Barrows p.58 'The Constants of Nature' "... but few scientists nowadays seriously believe that their laws are true." - Profs. Jack Cohen & Ian Stewart - p. 285 "Collapse of Chaos" Frankly, George doesn't sound as if he's in favor of 'science', just 'authority'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Toronto UFO Conference Producer Responds From: Mike Bird <mikebird.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:47:13 -0400 Subject: Toronto UFO Conference Producer Responds Hello to the UFO UpDates List. I'm not going to get into a cat fight with all those who have voiced, on the List, their opposition to, or fear of the term "Exopolitics" being associated with, or the basis for, the symposium that Victor Viggiani and I are planning for Sept 25th. For the record, the sub-theme of the program is "A Symposium On UFO Disclosure And Planetary Directions". I myself did not know about the term Exopolitics till I heard it 2 years ago on the Strange Days... Indeed radio program. Stephen Bassett was a guest that night and announced his plans for X- Conference 1. I drove from Toronto to Washington D.C. in April 04, to attend, and I was not dissappointed in the quality of the speakers nor the divergent positions that indicates to me that many of us are trying to grapple with some of the larger problems and issues that surround ufology. In my mind, UFOs, disclosure, politics, genocide, terrorism, pollution, socio-economic stress etc., are not mutually exclusive issues facing humanity today. What is more important, that we solve the nature of UFOs? Or that we come to grips with planetary issues that threaten our survial? I like to think that both are possible and necessary. Since that conference I've been doing research on the net, to try to better understand what Exopolitics means, either currently (in it's infancy) or in future? I came across a very interesting book, Exopolitics, Polis - Ethnos - Cosmos, Classical Theories and Praxis of Foreign Affairs, by Paris Arnopoulos (Nova Science Publishers 1999), that I recommend to those who want to know what the Greeks thought about the larger issues in life. Out of my own practical necessity I have established my own working definition of the term as the potential marriage of ET reality, with planetary politics. Because I have been a computer programmer for 32 years there is only one of two scenarios possible with the whole subject of UFOs. Either we are alone or we are not. From all of my analysis, I would suggest that the mountain of excellent data supports the latter position. That in no way means that I know what we are dealing with; I just know that something is there. On that basis alone, one day our planet will have to adapt it's politics and socio-economic systems to incorporate this truth. This moment might be sooner than later; ie within our lifetimes. Given the current pace of terrorist activity, would it be prudent to wait until the subways and buses of Toronto and other cities around the world have become targets, before we start to look at global affairs from different perspectives? For those that might not already know, for what it is worth I have seen 4 UFOs over the past 30 years. In Sept 75, my wife and parents and I observed a UFO hovering over Lake Ontario for over 2 hours. It was just a bright glistening light, as seen through my telescope, that finally decided to move west towards Hamilton Ontario. The following year I drove with Henry McKay the MUFON Director for Canada at the time, to attend the 1976 MUFON Symposium in Ann Arbour, MI. In 1982 I helped Henry organize the MUFON Symposium in Toronto, the only time it has been held outside the USA. I've attended the 1993, 1996, 2002 & 2003 MUFON Symposia that were within driving distance of Toronto. The reason why I mention any of this, is not to toot my own horn; for the most part I have been a very quiet researcher the past 30 years; but I take very seriously the charges made today by some against MUFON. I do not believe John Schuessler would have recently appointed me as Director for Canada if he did not respect nor trust my judgement to conduct myself appropriately in the ufology arena. Thanks to the courage and efforts of Walt Andrus, John Schuessler and the civilian MUFON organization over the past 36 years, they have attempted to prove the existance of UFOs when traditional science couldn't or wouldn't touch the subject. In the words of John Mack, "They've been operating in lieu of the clinicians (read scientists) who should have taken up the work". I don't expect all of you to agree with what Victor and I are trying to do here in Toronto. If you think our efforts totally wrong, offbase, and bad for uflology, then you certainly have the opportunity to organize your own program(s) to put forth
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:42:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:50:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Hatch >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:24:31 -0700 >Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary >>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0700 >>Subject: Thomas Gold Obituary Hello Josh: >Terry Colvin's posting of Gold's petroleum theory raised some >interesting food for thought in my hungry mind. Anyone with 5 neurons left wiggling is left with the really awful question where tomorrow's energy is coming from. All countries face this matter, and it isn't pretty. 39-cent gasoline is an artifact of the past. [damn!] This leaves the door open for the 'free lunch' bunch, but don't get me started on that. Crude at 50 or 60 bucks a barrel was hypothesized long ago based on the kindest charts and projections. Almost nobody listened and here we are. Now let us drag ourselves, kicking and coughing into the 21st century, _divorcing_ ourselves from every need for oil.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:26:41 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:56:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:49:02 -0700 >Subject: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >on link below: >http://www.galacticdiplomacy.com/Arcturians.htm Aloha Mike, Thanks for bringing the Institute's Board of Director's to the attention of the List. The Board currently comprises three individuals who over the next twelve months will be responsible for steering the development of the Institute, expanding the Board of Directors, and including other prominent exopolitical researchers, activists and/or experiencers in the various programs and boards/committees of the Institute. For more details on the Board of Directors please go to: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-Board.htm The composition of the current Board in terms of one 'scholar', one 'activist' and one 'experiencer' is important since exopolitics as a disclipline requires all three areas to be integrated in order to be effective as an Institution. In the goals outlined in the Institute, you will find references to exopolitical scholarship, activism and 'citizen diplomacy' with ETs. Each of these areas is critical for exopolitics and each member of the Board of Director's has expertise in one of these In my own case as Founder of the Institute, I bring in the scholarly analysis of exopolitics which I'm well qualified to do in terms of my own background as a political scientist. As far as political activism is concerned that is the expertise brought in by Ed Komarek co-founder of Operation Right to Know and your former colleague. Ed is pretty well known for his UFO activism and has re-emerged recently to promote exopolitical activism and is committed to mobilizing the general public to learn the truth about the UFO cover up and ET issues. The final individual, Eric Julien (aka Jean Ederman) is an 'experiencer' who brings a unique perspective into the study of exopolitics. Eric is the author of La Science Des Extraterrestres ("JMG Publications, France, 2005) which is currently being translated into English as "The Science of Extraterrestrials". His book has received positive reviews from prominent French UFO researchers/scientists some of which are available to read at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-EricJulien-home.htm Eric has worked professionally in the French aviation industry and is a certified director of international airports (Airport Senior Manager) and is recognized by the National School of the Civil Aviation and Aeroports of Paris. He began having various extraterrestrial related experiences in 1977 and he has described and given evidence for various UFO sightings, telepathic communications and physical contacts. He gained international public attention as the organizer of the internet referendum asking the question: "Do You Want Extraterrestrials to Show Up." I wrote a review of this message in November 2003 which is how I came to learn of Eric and his experiences - see: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-7.htm Some may enquire why would it be important to have 'experiencers' included into the study of Exopolitics or given a prominent role in the organizational structure of an Exopolitics Institute oriented towards scholarship, activism and citizen diplomacy initiatives with ETs? In my view, exopolitics requires evaluating a wide variety of psi-phenomena including telepathic communication with extraterrestrials and the alleged mind-technology interface that is part of the UFO/ET phenomenon, and use of ET technologies. This is something that a number of whistleblowers have discussed. Col Phillip Corso, for example, claimed that the navigation system of ETVs requires the kind of mind/technology interface that Eric describes in his book. Eric's role as an 'experiencer' with solid credentials in the aviation industry gives him unique insights into how technology and human consciousness can be combined for navigating ETVs and using ET technologies. Eric's experiences and insights will be very helpful in casting light on the psi-aspect of the UFO/ET phenomenon and to helping to evaluate this dimension of exopolitical research. Some on this forum may raise their eyebrows at the suggestion that those including among their list of competencies 'telepathic communication with ETs can make a meaningful contribution to the study of exopolitics, far less to the study of UFOs. This is mistaken since telepathic communication and the mind-technology interface is a very real aspect of the UFO/ET phenomenon and needs to be better understood and assessed. This does not imply acceptance of all information allegedly gained through telepathic communications with ETs but points to taking this phenomenon seriously and coming up with some criteria for assessing and incorporating it into scholarly analyses and political activism. I would recommend that those willing to explore the possibilities of telepathic communication with Extraterrestrials read Ingo Swann's book, Penetration. Swan has a website that has a number of articles exploring telepathy and other psi-phenomenon actively that have been seriously studied in covertly funded programs by various mil-intel agencies at: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/ Mike, I hope that introduces you to Eric Julien's unique competencies and clarifies his association with the Exopolitics Institute.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:40:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:58:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:33:34 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>The claim that ufology is a "laughing stock" because of >>someone's opinions about ET contact is no less preposterous than >>those opinions themselves. >Not true! Ufology _is_, sadly, to a great extent, a laughing >stock! How great an extent? Despite all the official ridicule (and catastrophes like Heaven's Gate), polls usually show about half the U.S. population seems to think it's a serious subject. Peter Sturrock did a poll of professional astronomers in 1977 that showed over half the respondents thought UFOs deserved scientific investigation. A lot of time has passed since then, but I doubt the proportion of good versus bad UFO research is much different now. I don't think sweeping generalizations about how ufology is a laughing stock are particularly helpful. >Nothing preposterious about that opinion. That doesn't >mean, however, that there isn't (and hasn't always been) >competent investigators/researchers doing quality work - that >Ufology has nothing to be proud of. It certainly does have a lot >going for it. However, the truth is that, for the most part, the >media, the scientists, etc. don't recognize it and laugh at it. >Sad, unfortunate, but true! If the media can't recognize that good quality research has been done, that says more about the poor quality of what passes for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:03:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:00:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:05:19 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry >>because ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. >Then it is entirely appropriate that you are the clown prince in >this "smirking" circus. >Want to shoot yourself in the other foot as well? Hey, Stu, don't pigeonhole me. Even us skeptics can be considered part of ufology if we are willing to spend our time for free to look into these things. I am not smirking at myself.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:16:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:06:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:22:34 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:33 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 ><snip> >>>Ah, cripes, here we go! >>>Nobody is telling anybody what to believe! Nobody is telling >>>anybody what to think! Only to actually/think/ and use powers >>>of discrimination before accepting claims. Only to require >>>fair evidence before believing claims. And, if we don't do > >>this, how can we expect to be taken seriously? >>>Larry made some valid points. They show the shakiness of some >>>of the beliefs in the 'exopolitics' camp. Counter them with >>>facts, if you can, instead of with sarcasm about his telling >>>you what to think and believe. >>I wholeheartedly agree with this and Eugene's initial post. >>`Exobiology' is a total crock, but if you want to believe it >>that is your right. >You're very gracious. >>It is total horse hockey to suggest that when people are asked >>to think critically and beware of frauds and con-men that they >>are being told what to think. >Those are very serious allegations about the speakers taking >part in this conference. Can you back those claims up or are >Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Run about to receive a phone call? >>Your argument also cuts both ways: Are you telling me what I >>should think, that I should accept Execrobiology without >>criticizing it and/or its proponents? >I can't follow your argument here. I can't quite see how you've >managed to twist around what I said in order to produce this >convoluted question, based apparently on something I didn't say. >If it helps, I asked Larry to _tell_ me what to think. Want to >run it past me again? Stuart, to me you seem incredibly naive. Were you asleep when on this List when we had all the interchanges with Michael Salla regarding his "pseudo-whistleblowers" and their stories? Are you going to believe the stories of proven frauds? You should go to the archives and read all the posts regarding "exopolitics" and "exobiology". You should go back and read all the posts regarding the Disclosure Project. Some people have no sense in being able to understand that stories with no supporting hard evidence are just tales. To believe those tales without proven evidence to confirm them is mere speculation. To try to present those tales as evidence or proof is dishonesty. To charge money to tell those tales is a form of fraud. To believe that just because a person telling the tale was in the military or some government posiition that had security clearance means that the person is giving an honest accounting is foolishness. Naive people are going to attend that lecture in Canada and pay money for sensationalism. Some may be naive enough to believe those tales without an evidential case to prove their validity. The MUFON people presenting that circus should be above that kind of fraud. Unfortunately they and many other MUFON people are stuck in that level. That is one of the primary reasons I quit MUFON some years ago. It is one of the reasons I mostly just lurk on this list in recent years. A great many posts here are mere speculation lacking in evidence. The tales of "believers" without proof of their assertions has been a chronic cancer within the UFO field. It is a cancer that keeps scientists and many intelligent people away from this phenomenon. It is the very reason why many people consider this field a haven for kooks. It is also a primary reason why Stephen Bassett never got elected and most likely will never get elected. Richard Dolan makes conspiratorial claims without the evidence to support them. The Paolo woman is loony. Nick Redfern is making claims in his book that are refuted by real evidence. In many ways this field stinks. It stinks so badly that it practically smothers the attempts of people who are able to remain objective in their efforts to obtain real evidence without first shooting their mouths off with wild tales. Sensationalism sells - to suckers who pay for it. I fully support Larry Hatch's "sneer" plus Dick Hall's and Eugene Frison's comments on these matters.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:28:00 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:16:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:47:10 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >>>presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >>>civilizations, >>What? Now that's one heck of a claim! Is there any wonder >>why the assumption exists that the UFO field is full of >>'kooks.'? How can we ever expect to be taking seriously with >>these kind of claims being promoted as part of "Canadas first >>major UFO symposium"? These claims are just going way, way >>beyond where we presently stand when it comes to what we know >>about UFO's. >You are to be commended for your concern but don't worry because >ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. This >conference is just one in a long line of such examples. >We have a cast of characters with such bizarre, conspiratorial >ideas that there is little hope for the whole thing. >Best we start a new society/group from scratch without any >mention of the term UFO to avoid the loony crowd and hopefully >we will get some respect. >I think that you should just let them have their fun because >none of it will make a bit of difference. UFOology's name is >dirt right now. >But I am dissappointed Mr. Velez will not be showing some >Mexican "fleet" videos or Mr. Lehmberg not doing his wandering >minstrel stuff there. Add to the fun! >Can we get an idea of how much folk are being paid to be >speakers there? Is it gratis or what? What does Mr. Friedman >draw in speaker's fees these days? Gives us all something to >shoot for (we hope)! Some people have asked what I am doing at an Exopolitics Conference. I was invited. I also spoke at the X-Conferences in Gaithersburg in 2004 and 2005. My talk this year was a shortened version of a new paper, Government UFO Lies. A longer version will be presented on Saturday, July 23, at the 36th Annual MUFON Symposium and will be included in the Published Proceedings which, as usual, will be available at the Conference. Does my participation in Toronto on Sept. 25 indicate I subscribe to the Exopolitics Manifesto as described in Mike Bird's Press release? Of course not. My position on Exopolitics should be very clear to those on this List who have read my many responses to Michael Salla, my recent review of Nick Redfern's book in UFO Magazine, my recent MUFON Journal column on Whistleblowers. which touches on several including Michael Wolf Kruvant and my pieces about Bob Lazar and Philp Corso on my website at: http://www.stantonfriedman.com However, I am convinced by the evidence, which I have presented, that Earth is being visited by aliens and that we are dealing with a CosmicWatergate, and that there are no good arguments against these conclusions, the Seth Shostaks of this world notwithstanding... I have also found that most people are unfamiliar with that evidence and appreciate being informed. My lecture fees vary, being considerably more for college and university presentations than for conferences. For example, I still haven't been paid for the Gaithersburg Conference. I have a toll free number 877-457-0232 for anybody who wishes to book an exciting, stimulating, educational, dynamic, sometimes humorous program. I do skewer the noisy negativists and fossilized physicists and ancient academics and SETI cultists, if that is what turns you on amidst all the facts and data. I wonder at all these comments about the sorry state of ufology. Are they based on surveys, polls, or top of the head pronouncements from on high? I still have had only 11 hecklers,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 NASA Finds Big Devils On Mars From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:03:58 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:20:45 -0400 Subject: NASA Finds Big Devils On Mars Includes a real animation of them; http://tinyurl.com/dfldu
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:16:49 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:23:51 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gehrman >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >I have another comment to make on your claim that the famous >autopsy footage showed a human handicapped with progeria (chap >16). That has been already discarded by almost everybody on this >list, including me, but here is another angle of the story. If >your theory were right, it would have been incredibly foolish to >release such a film! In any case, the American and British >secret services, working together, had plenty of time to block >its release in London, discreetly, if they wanted to. We would >have heard no more of the film, vague rumors at best. On the >other hand, if the purpose was to trash the UFO crash theory, it >was highly effective. The Alien Autopsy Film was a scandal, and >a disaster, not only for Roswell, but for ufology as a whole. Hi Gildas, The only scandal concerning the AA was the manner in which influential members UFO community trashed it before examining it closely. There is still no evidence of any kind that the footage was hoaxed or fraudulently created, yet folks are still making derogatory and uninformed comments like yours. The AA and the Roswell incident are connected since the creatures seem similar; both have six fingers - the MP's testimony. But the cameraman and Ray Santilli were mistaken when they tried to put the footage into the Roswell context. This was a result of their ignorance concerning the Roswell history and timeline and not skullduggery. Truth is never a disaster; but ignoring of truth does become problematic. The UFO community has footage of the creatures, and their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Investigation Of Illinois Night Lights From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:27:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:27:38 -0400 Subject: Investigation Of Illinois Night Lights Source: Daily Southtown - Tinley Park, Illinois http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/yrtwn/south/177syt9.htm Sunday, July 17, 2005 Community news Blue Island Investigation Of Night Lights Around 8 p.m. on Halloween night 2004, hundreds, if not thousands, of trick-or-treaters and their parents in Tinley Park, Orland Park and Oak Forest were stopped in their tracks and looking up at strange lights on what appeared to be a large triangular-shaped object passing overhead in the night sky. Eyewitness testimony, videos and pictures from various angles indicated whatever it was may have been about 5,000 feet long and hovering about 4,000 feet above the ground. The investigation of the Tinley Park Light continues. Sam Maranto, a director of the Mutual UFO Network, will visit Blue Island Public Library, 2433 York St., at 7 p.m. Tuesday,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: oronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:57:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:29:05 -0400 Subject: Re: oronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:01:12 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>If ufology is a laughing stock,it's only because the government >>and media elites decided it should be presented that way to the >>public. These are the same elites, it should always be noted, >>who so easily convinced the public that Iraq's nonexistent >>weapons of mass destruction were a justification for a bloody >>and costly war. They are as good at convincing the public that >>laughable claims are true as they are at convincing people that >>serious issues are a joke. >I see. We're not really a gang of nutters, it's just that world >governments are conspiring to make us _look_ like a gang of >nutters! This is about as convincing as the argument that when >ufologists are caught out by simple hoax, it must be as a result >of a government disinformation plot. What they mean is "I am so >smart that it takes the resources of an entire government to >fool me." If you think someone is making you look like you're in a "gang
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Active SETI From: The Norm <xxx.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:21:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:34:50 -0400 Subject: Active SETI An Interview with Dr. Yvan Dutil of the Defence Research Establishment Valcartier, in Canada, regarding 'Active SETI'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:00:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:07:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:12:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:55:27 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Ah, cripes, here we go! >No, Sir. With all respect. It appears here _you_ go. And by >yourself at the start, too. <snip> >Your long post is, in my opinion, nothing more than a rant! If a rant, Sir, it was one with a tad more inclusive thought and a smidgeon less piqued irritation than your bellicose and combative responses. Moreover, it may be that in discussions of this type it is the angrier man who is less correct, forgetting that one man's rant is another man's thoughtful discourse... besides, if I "rant" it may be that you "grouse"... and rather thoughtlessly and ineffectually, for my money. >If I had intended to mean things like 'proof' then I would >have said 'proof'. As I tried to point out, one man's proof may be anther man's pretentiousness, and both of these seem to be subjective calls warmed or chilled by the individual mind of the beholder. Sincerely, in these more esoteric matters, beyond a 'proof' like "opposite angles are equal"? There seems to be no proof but that evidence which one accepts as 'proof'. >If you have "to wonder" what I mean by "actually >thinking and using powers of discrimination" then there's no >point in discussing with you any further, and I won't. Ah! That _would_ be the easy way. >Your >entire response can be wrapped up in two words and one phrase >that you used - "imagination," "assumptions," and "Reading >between the lines." > We're not doing plain geometry here, Sir. We consider, as regards UFOs, that which is _well_ out of the box... and UFOs are decidedly reluctant to jump in and out of your churlish test tube. It may be that "imagination," tentative "assumption," and "Reading between the lines," are just what is required... besides, how far has your rather cloistered approach moved us in 50 years? 'Kooks' are not the disease, Mr. Frison... they are a symptom of the precursor disease. You don't treat a disease effectively by treating symptoms... I should think that that only provides for a more tenacious disease. >I've been a member of this List for years and get its posts >every day. I'm familiar with every person on it through reading >their views over this period of time, or as familiar as anyone >can get through this media. But I try to stick to facts instead >of "imagination," assumptions," and "reading between the lines." We've already discussed the aggregate success of your approach, Sir. Fact: There is a preponderance of evidence thousands of years long, across the width of all societies and cultures, and with a depth that is "perennially out of reach" by the one who 'refuses' to reach into it. 'Science' ignores this, and only discredits itself, I suspect. You didcredit science by not holding it to account. Moreover, it may be that science as it is understood by, even gifted, 'children' is not sufficient to make that reach. Additionally, alchemy was the precursor of science, which may mean that science, as it is understood, may not have happened without alchemy, and that may indicate that what is required is an alchemy beyond science leading itself to a fuller and more complete science. >If everyone in the field of Ufology did this as well, the field >wouldn't be in the mess it's in, and we wouldn't be having this >discussion. That's only a snake eating it's tail, Mr. Frison. We wouldn't be having this discussion if unaccountable agencies were made accountable, closed institutions were busted wide open, and unelected governments (like that in the United States) were exposed, impeached, and disbanded and replaced by elected ones serving individuals they were elected to serve. You'd do _well_ to spit the tail out, Sir. >Your "assumptions" are entirely your own as to what I mean and, >I think, based on your overuse of "imagination" and "reading >between the lines." From where I stand, you completely missed >the gist of what I was getting at! > Nonsense. Your position is abundantly clear, and only tedious for that brand of 'clarity'. Forgetting that we owe "imagination" and "more expansive reading" for all that we are and all that we likely shall be... ...You missed the gist of what Mr. Miller suggested: That a sneer and a smirk will most times get a "boot" upside your ass and there is decidedly more to heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in anyone's philosophy. Especially yours? >Your post is a perfect example of how, when a serious discussion >about things in Ufology is attempted, it always eventually >starts to spiral and lift off into the 'way out there.' Sorry Sir. "Way out there" is where this thing is. And it may be the person willing to go "out there" who will provide the impetus for others to gainfully follow... or is that the way it has always been? It may be, Sir, that _your_ riposte is an example of misplaced irritation, irked intransigence, and an unawareness (or acceptance?) of just how much 'science' and 'society' betray us all, with regard to UFOs... and _other_ things. >It can't >stay focused on the facts. How can it, when "imagination," >"assumptions," and "reading between the lines" starts to take >over? Sir, I think it may be that it has only been "imagination," intelligent "assumptions," and "reading between the lines" that has only ever moved 'science' along. Passed your rather irrational snit, you might admit that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:02:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:09:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:21:49 -0300 >Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:49:02 -0700 >>Subject: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >>Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >>on link below: >Well, that changes everything! If the information is coming from >the guys from Arcturus, then count me in. Where do I sign up? I >just didn't trust the Zeta Reticulians and the bunch from the >Pleiades. >(I know what you meant, Mike!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto UFO Conference Producer Responds - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:30:52 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:15:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto UFO Conference Producer Responds - >From: Mike Bird <mikebird.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:11 -0400 >Subject: Toronto UFO Conference Producer Responds >I'm not going to get into a cat fight with all those who have voiced, >on the List Hi Mike: I'm not interested in starting a cat fight with you either! That's not going to get anyone anywhere! >Either we are alone or we are not. From all of my analysis, I would >suggest that the mountain of excellent data supports the latter >position. That in no way means that I know what we are dealing with; I >just know that something is there. I agree with what you have said here. If that is your position then you and I are on the same side of the fence and I have no issues to contest with you. It does, however, seem to a complete reversal of the stance put forth in the announcement that initially appeared on this list regarding the upcoming symposium in September. It is _that_ stance that I have very big problems with. I refer to, among others: >1. Contact with extraterrestrials has been made; validating the >presence of a multitude of off-world and highly sophisticated >civilizations, and >Each speaker will present unequivocal evidence of the existence >of and contact with Extraterrestrial civilizations. also >The major theme and mission of the symposium is the quest for >open dialogue about the UFO phenomenon and to fully engage the >media, academics, scientists, government and the general public >about existence of off-world civilizations as evidenced by the >unrelenting numbers of unidentified aerial phenomenon reports >world-wide. This does not seem to be in line with your recent statement, "That in no way means that I know what we are dealing with; I just know that something is there." I know if this was my position (and it is) I would not be having speakers at my symposium who hold the viewpoints made in the announcement. I would feel an obligation to the people attending the symposium to present them with the most accurate information I could. >Thanks to the courage and efforts of Walt Andrus, John >Schuessler and the civilian MUFON organization over the past 36 >years, they have attempted to prove the existance of UFOs when >traditional science couldn't or wouldn't touch the subject. In >the words of John Mack, "They've been operating in lieu of the >clinicians (read scientists) who should have taken up the work". Here... Here!!! No arguement with this! I couldn't agree with you more! >I don't expect all of you to agree with what Victor and I are >trying to do here in Toronto. If you think our efforts totally >wrong, offbase, and bad for uflology, then you certainly have >the opportunity to organize your own program(s) to put forth >whatever position you deem necessary for the well being of >ufology
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:38 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:17:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:00:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >If a rant, Sir, it was one with a tad more inclusive thought and >a smidgeon less piqued irritation than your bellicose and >combative responses.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:47:03 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:18:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:02:49 -0500 >Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>>Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >>>Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >>>on link below: >>Well, that changes everything! If the information is coming from >>the guys from Arcturus, then count me in. Where do I sign up? I >>just didn't trust the Zeta Reticulians and the bunch from the >>Pleiades. >>(I know what you meant, Mike!) >Those whom the gods would destroy... they first make sarcastic I seem to remember my intent merely being a bit of humour!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:13:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:20:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Maccabee >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:24:31 -0700 >Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary >>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0700 >>Subject: Thomas Gold Obituary >>Source: Fortean Times - #196 >>June 2005 <snip> >>Since then, Russian petroleum geologists have reported finding >>oil in wells drilled more than 5km (3 miles) deep in the central >>part of the crystalline Baltic Shield and they have credited >>Gold with inspiring them to look there. More than 300 deep wells >>are under way in Russian Tartarstan and others in Vietnam's >>giant offshore White Tiger field, all reported to be productive. >>One important consequence of Gold's deep hot biosphere is still >>reverberating in the realm of oil production and international >>finance. The biogenic theory of oil production and international >>finance. The biogenic theory of oil led to the belief that it >>would eventually 'run out', which is what is keeping oil prices >>artificially high. If Gold is correct, the reserves of deep >>natural oil are vastly in excess of the 'normal' quantities >>estimated by the gas and petroleum industry. But Gold has more >>good news: in a recent interview he claimed that "some >>geologists agree that fields are refilling themselves, though >>they won't openly admit it." Gold believes that his can only be >>because the reduction in pressure in the higher reservoir is >>drawing more up from deeper layers. <snip> >>British astronomer and physicist, born Vienna, Austria, 22 May >>1920; died Ithaca, NY, 22 June 2004, aged 84 >Terry Colvin's posting of Gold's petroleum theory raised some >interesting food for thought in my hungry mind. As regards our >energy future, unfortunately it is going to take longer than I >had initially had hoped for our use of hydrogen in automobiles >o become practical. The same goes for wide use of home hydrogen >uel cells for our energy needs. Creating hydrogen requires >great energy and even using new nuclear reactors to create the >electricity to provide hydrogen is not cost effective. >We already have growing tension with China regarding finite >supplies of petroleum. If Gold's theory proves correct we may >have a much greater abundance of petroleum than previously >estimated. I want to make enquiries in the energy field to find >out if they believe deep wells may tap into that possible >abundance. Prior to this article I had not seen this discussed >n our energy future plans. Recovering oil shale, as in Canada, >is expensive and it is a dirty form of petroleum compared to >liquid oil. Coal gassification has large possibilities but it is >an entirely new technology to be developed. >I want to find out what the petroleum industry thinks of Gold's >theories and if deep drilling or the possibility of the >backfilling of known oil fields are realistic to help our energy >future. Gold's theory if true is a double edged sword. It cuts away the liklihood ofrunning out of oil soon. On the other hand, it also cuts "against" the need for reducing oil burning as much as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:13:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:23:55 -0400 Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript - Maccabee >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:03:32 +0100 >Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:54:56 -0400 >>Subject: Re: July 6 Larry King Live Transcript >>>CLANCY: What, the pictures? >>>KING: Yeah, what is that? >>>CLANCY: The pictures are somebody trying to create the illusion >>>of flying saucers or somebody took a picture of some weird thing >>>in the sky, happened to look like a flying saucer. It's >>>certainly not evidence that there's something extraterrestrial >>>in the sky. >>Obviously she knew/knows nothing about these pictures, as her >>"certainly not evidence" shows. >>The Trent photos from McMinnville are either a hoax or the real >>thing and the liklihood of the Trents creating a hoax is so small >>that even Hartmann endorsed the photos in the Condon report. >Hartmann did change his mind later. Try asking him now. Yes, he changed his mind as a result of photo analysis by Robert Sheaffer of the photos. But Sheaffer's analysis was shown to be incomplete and not definitive proof of a hoax. However, the photo analysis was not the whole story. As I have pointed out in my much more comprehensive analysis of the whole case, it was certainly possible that the Trents could have been "photographically lucky" in producing pictures which contained no proof of a hoax. But then they also had to back the photos up with a history of why and how they were taken and what happened afterward. Numerous interviewers, over the years, were impressed with their apparent honesty, beginning with the photo editor of the newspaper that first published their photos. When asked whether or not he thought the photos were real he went straight to the point: he didn't think the photos were faked because "they were too" (to be PC about it, "mentally challenged") to even think of such a thing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:26:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:55:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:47:03 -0300 >Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:02:49 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>>>Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >>>>Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >>>>on link below: >>>Well, that changes everything! If the information is coming from >>>the guys from Arcturus, then count me in. Where do I sign up? I >>>just didn't trust the Zeta Reticulians and the bunch from the >>>Pleiades. >>>(I know what you meant, Mike!) >>Those whom the gods would destroy... they first make sarcastic >I seem to remember my intent merely being a bit of humour! >Whether or not it was actually funny, that was my only intent. >More "reading between the lines"? And I was merely trying for a little humor, myself. On your part, more sullen intransigence?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:37:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:56:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:38 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:00:43 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>If a rant, Sir, it was one with a tad more inclusive thought and >>a smidgeon less piqued irritation than your bellicose and >>combative responses. >I commend you, sir, on the finest piece of specious writing I >have ever read! The finest? Hang around, Sir. I may yet show you that one man's "specious" is another man's "spacious."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Ufology's Internal War From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:58:30 -0400 Subject: Ufology's Internal War Greetings to the Listarians, It has become apparent that an internal war has begun regarding the state of modern Ufology. Nothing really new, but the players are changing so rapidly, that common sense seems to have become a casualty. How is Ufology supposed to be defined? I cannot speak for others, but I think it is a field of study involving manufactured craft, that transcends our current technological development. Thus, cryptoaeronautics, or aircraft of unknown origin. Ufology began as a fortean subject, but now stands on its own and separate in relation to crop circles, ghosts, animal mutilation, sky falls, etc. What, then, is a Ufologist? Again, I cannot speak for others, but I think a Ufologist is a person who has studied the phenomena and its history, then proceeds one step further by actually doing field research regarding specific cases or the subject in general to keep the knowledge base current. Thus, there are a few researchers who make up the core of ufological study. The vast majority of people use the research from the few to bring the subject to public forums. Some people do well in bringing the subject to public forums, but the majority do not, due to wild speculation and belief systems. What do we really know about UFOs? A massive amount actually, but no real answers that contribute to a consensus. The subject itself provides for wild speculation and theories by those interested in the subject, but the real Ufologist knows the following to be accurate: 1. Origin of UFOs remain, at this time, unknown. Everything regarding possible origin is speculative at this point and no definitive answer is yet available. 2. How such objects are propelled is unknown and speculative. 3. There is no definitive proof that such devices carry sentient alien beings. However, research indicate that these objects appear to be intelligently controlled. 4. Some of these objects leave behind traces of their existence and interact with people of all ages, incomes, educational attainment, professions, etc. The proposition that all people who see UFOs are mentally impaired is factually incorrect. 5. Of the thousands of worldwide reports of UFO sightings, only a small percentage appear to be of manufactured origin that exceed our current technological development. These objects, thoughout recorded history, have shown that the technology of these devices change in relation to our technological development. 6. Ufology, by its very nature, lends to scientific investigation by developing new techniques. Is it possible for Ufology to overcome the riddle factor and become a science unto itself? Yes. But only to a core group of researchers at this point because Ufology has reached the level it needs to be taught and specialities formed. If Ufology is not taught, continuation of rampant misinformation will continue to apply and Ufology will remain a chaotic field of study. Anyone who studies Ufology critically, takes no theory as an absolute. So, who are the best Ufologists researching today? Those who maintain the databases, uncovers new documentation, gathers unbiased reports, maintains trace evidence and brings the history of the subject to the public arenas. There are hundreds of competent Ufologists working today. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the tens of thousands of people who don't have a clue to what they are doing, but bring their dog and pony shows (belief systems) for permanent public display. Just some personal thoughts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:08:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:04:10 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >First, about the alleged transfer of prisoners from Unit 731 in >Manchuria to the United States, supposedly in order to continue >the horrible human experiments made there by the Japanese, the >question is: did it really happen? > Gildas, Go to page 166 of the book. You will see that I include extracts of an officially declassified document on Project Sunshine. This was a 1950s operation that was designed to "snatch" bodies, body-parts and bones for use in human radiation experiments. Indeed, the term "body-snatching" turns up numerous times within that document. Now take a look at the second paragraph on that page, where I quote from the document. It states: "Finally there was discussion of the need for resources [a typically bureaucratic and carefully worded term for bodies/body parts/bones for use in these experiments] from other countries. Colonel Maxwell of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project suggested the Armed Services could provide some help for specimens [another wonderful bureaucratic term] of the local population. The possibilities include Germany, a native hospital in Formosa and the Navy Unit in Cairo." In summary, Gildas, as late as 1955, the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project (the AFSWP - which I will return to later) was in prime position to obtain "specimens" from "a native hospital in Formosa" for use in human radiation experiments linked with (as the documents themselves state) "body-snatching." If - 10 years after the War - the US and the AFSWP could act as "body snatchers" to get human materials from a Formosa hospital (for human radiation tests remember), do you really think it is out of the question that human materials could not be got from Manchuria a decade earlier? I think not. Bear in mind, these are official documents. >There is a big problem here: this story is radically >contradicted by all historical studies and sources. > >>Another important difference resides in the alleged use of >deformed and handicapped people for all these experiments, >according to your insiders. Actually, the Japanese experimenters >preferred to have subjects in good health: "Unless you work with >a healthy body, you cannot get results" Yes this is quite true - that the sources I interviewed stated that the official history of Unit 731 only told part of the story. However, right now I am researching official documents that I was directed to not long before publication of the book that have a bearing on the _specific_ comments made by Colonel Maxwell of the AFSWP and the Formosa angle. A study of these documents reveals an intriguing link between the Formosa hospital and handicapped individuals - and the AFSWP. Interestingly, the AFSWP turns up in the Colonel's testimony too re the 47 accidents. >These little, fat gliders were not the best design to carry a >team of Japanese handicapped prisoners, in great secrecy, >hanging under a huge balloon, in White Sands in 1947! You have made a fundamental error here that a number of people who have read the book have made. It's certainly not due to me not referencing it in the book, so I can only assume it's due to people racing to read the book so they can post messages, and missing certain critical points. Here is your error: the handicapped were used in the high- altitude balloon tests and the nuclear aircraft angles. The device that crashed at Roswell had _no_ handicapped people on at all. I make it very clear that these people were a crew that had been trained in Japan to fly this device. They were pilots, but trained because they were somewhat short men, around 5 feet in height. Short but not handicapped. Go back to the book - page 111. The "Colonel" states: "...the crew, by the account I read, were fierce little fu..ers. In their minds, they had their mission to launch a very destructive kamikaze attack on us by high-altitude balloon...then on top of that they have to come work for us..." Then go to page 112, 3rd paragraph where the "Colonel" talks about "air to ground communication with the pilot..." Again, if you go back and read that section fully that deals with the "Colonel's" comments on the _specific_ event that led to the Roswell legend (_not_ the parts that deal with the high- altitude, nuke plane events), you'll see it is made very clear that there was nothing handicapped about the crew on that test. They were simply small guys trained to fly it - experienced pilots. And the reason why they trained - originally in Japan - shorter guys was quite literally because weight, food, oxygen, pressurization, etc., were all considered premiums re the planned 4-day flight across the Pacific. >There is just a word to say about Nazi flying saucers stories, >which you seem to believe, in your chapter 12 "Hitler's Disks". >These stories, which appeared at the beginning of the fifties >(at a time when a policy of systematic UFO debunking was put in >practice) have long since been discarded by all serious aviation >historians. I am well aware that much of the Nazi saucer angle has been (rightfully - we agree on that much, at least) debunked. It is for that reason that to back up the claims of the interviewees, I only cited officially declassified FOIA documents on Nazi Saucers and similar craft. I find it interesting that in the document cited on page 146, it states: " It is logical to relate the reported sightings to the known development of aircraft, jet propulsion, rockets and range extension capabilities in Germany and the USSR. In this connection, it is to be noted that certain developments by the Germans, _particularly the Horten Wing_, jet propulsion, and refueling, combined with their extensive employment of V-1 and V-2 weapons during World War II, lend credence to the possibility that the flying objects may be of German and Russian origin. The developments mentioned above were completed and operational between 1941 and 1944 and subsequently fell into the hands of the Soviets at the end of the War. There is evidence that the Germans were working on these projects as far back as 1931 to 1938. Therefore it may be assumed that the Germans had at least a 7 to 10 year lead over the United States." So here is a document that refers to the work of the Horten Brothers in a UFO context. It also talks about how the USSR may have had a lead in understanding this technology over the US. This actually goes along with what the sources told me (page 137) that the US could not get these things stable and there were crashes and accidents. Now you may dispute a Horten angle to the UFO mystery (or Roswell in particular), but this document was prepared by Brigadier General W. M. Garland to General John A. Stanford, Director of Intelligence of the US Air Force. I would think that people of that caliber would know what they were talking about. From somewhere, they had made links between Flying Saucers and the Hortens and suggested that the Russians were working on something along these lines. We might ask: Is it possible that this may be because they knew that the US had attempted to duplicated some of this technology back in New Mexico in 1947 (but failed badly) and assumed that the Russians were probably doing something similar too if America had done likewise? It's a recognized fact that there was a race between the US, the UK and the Russians to get their hands on Nazi technology at the end of the Wa. That aspects of this technology might have fallen into the hands of both the US and the Russians is highly plausible. >Now, let's turn to the central piece of your book, the alleged >top secret White Sands experiment. Now, you have just answered a >question of John Sawyer (July 15). You cite another version >given by the Colonel (p. 106): "a device had been incorporated >into the vehicle that was designed to convert heat energy from >an atomic pile into electrical energy". This is even more >confusing. Was it just radioactive material (p. 108), or an >atomic pile (p. 106)? I agree this _is_ confusing, primarily because this is one of the areas that the "Colonel" was highly uncomfortable about discussing (see the 3rd paragraph down, page 106). The point is that it would have been much easier for me to have completely omitted this from the book. But I didn't because I wanted to supply the reader with as much data as possible. As I told Stan F yesterday off-list, more is coming through on this, including data on this "device" and the way in which the US utilized the technology developed by the 3 Paperclip guys (who were at Wright, Ohio, in 1948, incidentally). That this technology was of extreme interest to LeMay and to certain players at Wright Field is not in dispute. I have the FOIA files now. My next step - which I am working on now - is filing further FOIAs for surrounding documents, such as those that detail the US people who got to work on this, trying to understand and develop what it was that the German guys were trying to do. Again, internal references in the files I already have now do reveal the names of the US people that worked on this (interestingly, 2 were attached to the Nuclear Energy for Propulsion of Aircraft - NEPA - project). Again, now that new material is coming on such as this, I will prepare a complete update and post when complete. >That's were the Roswell file comes in: this story fits >nicely with the dubious tale of the cameraman (revealed by >Santilli with the "alien autopsy film"), of a crash in the White >Sands area, with "freaks" and dangerous radioactivity on the >site. Yes, that is something that very few people have noticed (or commented on, at least): that the scenario of screaming people on the desert floor in the vicinity of a weird-looking aircraft is very similar to the cameraman's story. I recommend you read Phil Mantle's Alien Autopsy Inquest. >Still about nuclear experiments, I also noted two big mistakes, >the first one allegedly revealed by a Col. Helmik to Tim Cooper, >about which you don't express any doubts. You cite Helmick (p. >120) revealing to Tim Cooper: "They test-flew an atomic-powered >craft near Trinity in July (1947) and that is when they found >something else in the desert". The guy is dead now, mail I sent to two addresses I had for Cooper was returned as undeliverable. So I spoke to the Colonel, who suggested that this was an erroneous comment based on the nuclear _simulations_ rather than an actual nuclear flight. However, the inclusion of the "device" borne out of the work of the Paperclip guys suggests that this was actually beyond a simulation in some respects, as I told Stan F off-line a couple of days ago. >How can you report such a an enormous tale without comment? It >is well known that no aircraft with a nuclear engine existed at >that time. Yes the official story is that there was no super-functioning nuclear reactor that could power a aircraft at the time. Indeed, _all_ of the sources in the book confirmed that fact, with one even making the comment that the idea that fully-functioning nuclear powered aircraft were flying around was like something out of "Buck Rogers." But I will tell you something interesting: turn to page 139 to 140 in the book and you will see an FBI document of 1949 that refers to Colonel Clyde D. Gasser, described as the "principle army technician at the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft Research Center at Oak Ridge." In the document, Gasser discusses his theories on Saucers. He states that he had knowledge that "scientists have, for _many years_, been attempting to develop this type of aircraft. _Some experimentation has been done even in the United States_, but insofar as is known in the United States, at the present time, there have never been any practical developments." This accords with the data from my interviewees - that the tests undertaken on these vehicles were largely failures or didn't result in practical developments. The document continues: "According to Colonel Gasser there is only one possibly fuel which could be utilized which is in accord with present theory, and that is the utilization of atomic energy." How intriguing and interesting that Gasser (the "principle army technician at the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft Research Center at Oak Ridge" no less) had knowledge that the US had been attempting to develop Saucers and that "some experimentation" had been done prior to 1949 (the date of the document). And equally interesting is the fact that Gasser had made the nuclear energy connection to these Saucers too - and he worked for NEPA. Somewhere in all this, there _is_ a UFO, NEPA, atomic-energy research, man-made saucer connection. Even the documents such as this - that are admittedly fragmentary in terms of our access to them, at least - point in that direction. >I wish to add a couple of remarks on that matter. You cite >Jacques Vallee who mentioned Saran as a possible culprit for a >confusion (p. 123): "Aluminized Saran, also known as Silvered >Saran, came from technology already available for laboratory >work in 1948. It was paper-thin, was not dented by a hammer blow >and was restored to a smooth finish after crushing". >First, Roswell was in 1947, not 1948. Correct - but the point is that technology of this description was being worked on in the late 1940s. >But we learn in the Roswell Report that the large polyethylene >balloons became available only toward the end of June and >therefore could not be the origin of the Roswell incident. So what is your point? That - officially - the polyethylene balloons weren't "available" until late June does not mean that the material wasn't already being worked on - it was. And Roswell wasn't until July. >Anyway, even if some had been already made available for the >super-top-secret White Sands experiments, how could the officers >of the Roswell atomic bomb unit believe that they had found a >"flying disk", and announce that to the world? This is easy to answer - people have always argued than there is no way that trained personnel at Roswell could mistake a balloon for a Flying Disk/Flying Saucer/UFO. But they come to that conclusion because the UFO community has - after nearly 60 years - a large body of data on UFOs at our disposal that we can analyze and that suggests the truly unknown UFOs are _not_ balloons. However, the Roswell event occurred barely a week or so after the Kenneth Arnold encounter. No one knew about Saucers before then. So Gildas, the important point is that with barely a week of data in hand (as opposed to 60 years of data now), how would anyone know that Saucers _weren't_ possibly constructed out of balloon like materials? There was no 60 year history of data, reports, testimony, etc., to work with or analyze to suggest otherwise. >As an >aside, if all this is true, which I doubt very much, your >"sources" can probably be identified, notably the old lady who >worked during several years on special projects at Oak Ridge. >But also Mr. Levine and his informers, Mr T. of MOD Intelligence, >and Mr D., CIA operative; the Colonel; Bill Salter and "an old >friend from DOE"; Al Barker, from the Psychological Warfare >Center (PWC), and others. Yes, that's absolutely correct re potential identification. Hell, not even Deep Throat stayed hidden. As I mentioned previously on-list, certain name changes were made not by me but by the Legal Department at Simon & Schuster. I had no role in that. That was S&S's _insistence_ after I had a full and frank discussion with them (in which the names and data re the sources were supplied to S&S Legal - in full - a long time ago). >The same question arises on reading again the Popular Mechanics >article of July 1997, which presented almost the same story, as >you admit yourself, with a Horten-Fugo hybrid craft and a >Japanese crew. Only missing in that first version of 1997 are, >first the idea that they were handicapped, deformed people >(more confusing!). _Again_ Gildas, you have not read the book closely. The handicapped people were used as guinea pigs in various high- altitude experiments for the most part. The Roswell event involved a trained crew of Japanese Pilots - there was nothing handicapped about them! This is a misconception. And I have consistently made it clear in all interviews that there was a clear distinction between the tests using handicapped people and the crash with the trained crew of pilots at Roswell (albeit hand-picked pilots around 5-feet in height). >In all, this is, to me, a totally unbelievable story, for which >I have not found any credible evidence in your book. And you have the right to hold that opinion. And it is precisely because it _is_ a controversial story that I decided to put it out there. I'll tell you something interesting re your comment about evidence. I've broken it down into 6 points below: 1. You will know from the book that official records have surfaced showing that Dr. Lincoln La Paz of the University of New Mexico was "busy" in WW2 "in secret government work of studying and combating the [Japanese] balloon offensive." 2. You now know from earlier in this post that "Colonel Maxwell of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project suggested the Armed Services could provide some help for specimens [another wonderful bureaucratic term] of the local population. The possibilities include Germany, a native hospital in Formosa and the Navy Unit in Cairo." The AFSWP would be providing these "snatched bodies" for use in human radiation experiments. 3. We also know from earlier in this post that Colonel Gasser - the "principle army technician at the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft Research Center at Oak Ridge" - apparently knew about research into Saucers by the US pre-1949 and had suggested that Saucers worked upon atomic principles. 4. So, we have La Paz + Japanese Balloons. We have the AFSWP + Body Snatching + Specimens + a hospital in Formosa + human radiation experiments. And we have NEPA/Gasser + US experiments to build Saucers + atomic energy systems. 5. Interestingly, La Paz; the AFSWP and NEPA all surface - and all 3 together, I might add - in the Project Twinkle and Green Fireball controversy of the late 1940s, much of which was focused upon New Mexico. I have documents that have all 3 on the distribution list for documents, references to all 3 sitting in on meetings, etc. 6. So, we have a Japanese Balloon expert; the AFSWP later involved in snatching bodies from a Formosa Hospital for use in human radiation tests; and NEPA experts; all sitting in on meetings and discussing unusual aerial activity in - of all places - New Mexico in the late 1940s. Does this perhaps ring any bells? It should. It's highly reminiscent of the interviews I conducted fore the book re Japanese balloon experts, body-snatching groups, and NEPA all involved in the Roswell events of a couple of years prior to the Green Fireballs. And the post-Roswell things re La Paz, NEPA and the AFSWP all being connected in the Fireballs study - and the important New Mexico angle - can all be officially documented.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:46:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:06:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:47:03 -0300 >Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:02:49 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member >>>>Jean Ederman has been made a member of the E.I's Board of >>>>Directors. He channels (allegedly) folks from Arcturus. Click >>>>on link below: >>>Well, that changes everything! If the information is coming from >>>the guys from Arcturus, then count me in. Where do I sign up? I >>>just didn't trust the Zeta Reticulians and the bunch from the >>>Pleiades. >>>(I know what you meant, Mike!) >>Those whom the gods would destroy... they first make sarcastic >I seem to remember my intent merely being a bit of humour! >Whether or not it was actually funny, that was my only intent. >More "reading between the lines"? Thanks, Eugene. (I got it!) I just received a very interesting email from someone in France who says they know Ederman. He doesn't want to be identified. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:08:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:16:27 -0700 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:22:34 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:33 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0300 >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:27:41 +0100 (BST) >>>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >><snip> Hi Josh >Stuart, to me you seem incredibly naive. Were you asleep when >on this List when we had all the interchanges with Michael >Salla regarding his "pseudo-whistleblowers" and their >stories? Are you going to believe the stories of proven >frauds? You should go to the archives and read all the posts > regarding "exopolitics" and "exobiology". You should go back > and read all the posts regarding the Disclosure Project. I was more than wide awake when the exchanges about Exopolitics took place on UpDates. I even marginally took part in them. I'm not suggesting you bother but, if you were to trawl through the archives to see my contribution to the discussion, you would see comments along the lines of "Dr. Salla has a point but......." In other words, the principle appealed but the current manner of doing things needed severely tightening up. There was no endorsement. While you've brought it up, I thought your reaction to that debate was regretable. A number of you tried to out argue Dr. Salla but without success. Eventually some of you began to talk about him in the third person, as if he were some inanimate object. And then finally, convinced you were right but unable to get any "sense" out of him, you picked your ball up and went to play elsewhere and in a parting shot, made much the same comments as you do elsewhere in your post about what an absolute shambles Ufology had become. While it is a matter of opinion, I found I couldn't concur with your reaction and decision, and feel you sold yourself a bit short. >Some people have no sense in being able to understand that >stories with no supporting hard evidence are just tales. To >believe those tales without proven evidence to confirm them is >mere speculation. To try to present those tales as evidence or >proof is dishonesty. To charge money to tell those tales is a >form of fraud. To believe that just because a person telling >the tale was in the military or some government posiition >that had security clearance means that the person is giving >an honest accounting is foolishness. >Naive people are going to attend that lecture in Canada and >pay money for sensationalism. Some may be naive enough to >believe those tales without an evidential case to prove their >validity. The MUFON people presenting that circus should be >above that kind of fraud. Unfortunately they and many other >MUFON people are stuck in that level. That is one of the >primary reasons I quit MUFON some years ago. It is one of the >reasons I mostly just lurk on this list in recent years. A >great many posts here are mere speculation lacking in >evidence. >The tales of "believers" without proof of their assertions has >been a chronic cancer within the UFO field. It is a cancer >that keeps scientists and many intelligent people away from >this phenomenon. And yet, this doesn't seem to stop many scientists and many intelligent people being drawn to religion, a belief system with even less proof to support it than Ufology. >It is the very reason why many people consider this field a >haven for kooks. It is also a primary reason why Stephen >Bassett never got elected and most likely will never get >elected. Richard Dolan makes conspiratorial claims without the >evidence to support them. The Paolo woman is loony. Nick >Redfern is making claims in his book that are refuted by real > evidence. If we applied your standards here Josh, then no UFO conference would ever take place anywhere in the world. I would seriously contend that the levels of proof offered by non-Exoplitical speakers at UFO conferences doesn't come up anywhere near to scratch in terms of the level of evidentiary proof required by rational people. It's all in the packaging, the presentation, and of course, personal beliefs/acceptability. Most of us know this. Most of us accept this. If I were to decide to stage a conference myself, I would try to put on a speaking agenda with a wide variety of topic. I would certainly exercise some discretion and there would be limits but if you were to ask me whether I would engage a speaker who's subject matter I profoundly disagreed with, the answer would be yes, I would. What is it you would want to hear? Speaker after speaker who confirmed your own thoughts and ideologies? This idea, or actually excuse as I see it, that was raised specifically in relation to Exopolitics, namely that the gullible need to be protected, is an interesting one. Try as I might, I cannot remove the word "arrogant" from my mind in relation to this. You presume to protect people from thoughts and ideas that you have decided are corrupt or false? Governments do that. I don't believe you can go through life assuming most or many people are stupid or are incapable of filtering for themselves. Perhaps you might give people the benefit of the doubt and assume a higher level of objectivity on their part? And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of new recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a tragedy for Ufology? I'm guessing you would think so but you seem to want everyone lined up, thinking as you do, at least in relation to this topic. It's a broad church and it strikes me as only practical to accept that there are going to be those with whom you disagree. I acknowledge that you probably think that "Exo" is a particularly nasty potential cancer that could do a great deal of harm. But there are those in Ufology who feel the same way about abductions, about the ETH, etc. >In many ways this field stinks. It stinks so badly that it >practically smothers the attempts of people who are able to >remain objective in their efforts to obtain real evidence >without first shooting their mouths off with wild tales. >Sensationalism sells - to suckers who pay for it. >I fully support Larry Hatch's "sneer" plus Dick Hall's and >Eugene Frison's comments on these matters. Well, if that's the way you wish in future to discuss and debate, then your decision to return to the sidelines is probably for the best. >I also am very proud to be an American. In the last few years >we have liberated 50 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:56:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:14:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:55:02 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >And instead of strutting your "right on" credentials, how about >instead, offering your support to a fellow countryman's efforts >to get a major Ufological conference off the ground in Canada. >Or have I by chance hit the nail on the head and are there other >factors flying around in the background? Not if I think the subject they're promoting and the claims they are making is nonsense and outlandish. Are you really asking me to support something on the basis of "a fellow countryman's efforts to get a major Ufological conference off the ground in Canada" instead of on its merits? I'm supposed to support something because "it's a fellow countryman that's organizing it" - even if I view (as do many others) exopolitics as nonsense? If you rationalize like this then attempting to engage with you in a reasonable discussion of the matter under consideration is an exercise in futility. What nail are you trying to hammer down here? If you're implying 'jealousy' or whatever on my behalf because Mike Bird is organizing a symposium then you're guilty of injecting more "imagination" and "assumption" than fact into this discussion and helping to drive it off-track more than it is already. I resigned as ND of MUFON because I wanted to. My membership expired on the day of my resignation and I didn't want to remit dues again and preferred to instead focus my time/energy/resources on developing CAARS (which Chris Styles and I founded/incorporated in Nova Scotia in April, 2004). Read my article in the symposium proceedings of the event we held in September, 2004 in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - I was harping relentlessly against this type of activity long before Mike Bird decided to organize a symposium. I didn't just hop on the bandwagon and start griping against exopolitics because I saw Mike Bird's name connected to it. In fact, when we announced our symposium, Mike Bird planned to come and even informed Chris Styles on the telephone that he had his ticket. We were disappointed when he couldn't make it. Mike was Regional Director for MUFON Central at the time and we wanted him there - to be a part of the event. Just ask him! My presentation for the event as it was prepared for prior publication in our symposium proceedings (available for sale at the event) centered around the type of complaints I've recently made on this list - long before any concerns that I, as then National Director of MUFON in Canada, developed pertaining to Mike's approach.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:58:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:18:14 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Shell >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:16:49 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >The AA and the Roswell incident are connected since the >creatures seem similar; both have six fingers - the MP's >testimony. But the cameraman and Ray Santilli were mistaken when >they tried to put the footage into the Roswell context. >This was a result of their ignorance concerning the Roswell >history and timeline and not skullduggery. When I first met Ray Santilli he did not know how to pronounce Roswell and thought Socorro was Sirocco. The cameraman said that he always assumed the crash he was involved with was the Roswell event because he and the rest of the people who went to the crash site did so from the base at Roswell. The crash he was involved with probably has nothing at all to do with whatever it was that Mac Brazell found near Roswell. I think it is very unfortunate that this confusion occurred, because we should be referring to this as the Socorro Event or the Plains of San Agustin Event. I have read Nick's book during this list's hiatus, and may choose to comment on it in depth at some point, but at the moment I do not have the time. I will only say that I found his arguments not at all convincing. I don't doubt that he is serious in his approach and believes what he has written, but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:04:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:19:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Shell >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 >Subject: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >3. There is no definitive proof that such devices carry sentient >alien beings. However, research indicate that these objects >appear to be intelligently controlled. Excellent summary, Wendy!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 17 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:36:19 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:03:25 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:58:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >I have read Nick's book during this list's hiatus, and may >choose to comment on it in depth at some point, but at the >moment I do not have the time. I will only say that I found his >arguments not at all convincing. I don't doubt that he is >serious in his approach and believes what he has written, but >there are just too many assumptions that don't hold water. As >we say, "Nice try, but no cigar". And the idea that the cameraman was able to hold on to this footage under his bed, or above his garage or where ever it was for 40-plus years _does_ hold water? Come on! I don't doubt for a moment that there is much more to the AA film. Jenny Randles told me, nearly a decade ago, how back in 1986 she had been approached by a former British Army guy (whose story, in some ways at least, was not that different to that told to me in 1996 by Levine). He claimed to have knowledge of classified files on UFOs (and crashed saucers) and that these contained photographs of an autopsied creature that was - in Jenny's words to me - "chillingly similar" to the AA creature (the film surfaced 9 years after Randles' interview with her source). Also, it's worth noting that a study of Stringfield's Status Reports references a number of people who claimed to have seen AA type films. Interestingly, one such source (Case A-9 in Stringfield's, The UFO Crash/Retrieval Syndrome, of 1980) talks about the film being "probably shot by an inexperienced cameraman." Although there are certain _big_ differences re the AA and the testimony in Stringfield, this is intriguing re the poor shooting of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:05:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:37:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:37:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >The finest? Hang around, Sir. I may yet show you that one man's >"specious" is another man's "spacious." Hmmmm ... what to do for the rest of the afternoon? I _could_ go teeth-to-teeth in a battle with Alfred to see who could compose the longest and best sophistry. I could even get really into it and weave all the big words that I know into it. Heck, I could even run and get the dictionary and find all kinds of other big words that I'm not familiar with, just to make it even more impressive. Naw, I've an alleged UFO abduction report on my desk to write up here - think I'll work on that instead as it's a whole lot more productive.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:39:24 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Shell >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:36:19 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >And the idea that the cameraman was able to hold on to this >footage under his bed, or above his garage or where ever it was >for 40-plus years _does_ hold water? Come on! I have said on numerous occasions that I do not believe this one bit. But, since it appears that all of the film that Ray got from the cameraman is print film, there is no reason the cameraman couldn't have run off more than one copy of some of the footage for himself. He could still have turned in all of the camera-original negative film and a complete set of prints. I've tried until I got blue in the face to get Ray to let me talk to the old guy directly, but all I ever got was promises that he would call me, calls that never came. I think I could sort out a lot of this mess if I could talk to the man face to face, or on the telephone, for an hour or two. However, if he is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:40:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of new >recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a tragedy >for Ufology? If the whole point is determining the truth about UFOs (and propagating it) based on proper and/or scientific investigation
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:26:41 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:42:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 >Subject: Ufology's Internal War >Greetings to the Listarians, >It has become apparent that an internal war has begun regarding >the state of modern Ufology. Nothing really new, but the players >are changing so rapidly, that common sense seems to have become >a casualty. et al
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:58:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:45:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Ledger >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:42:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Goldstein >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:24:31 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary >>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0700 >>>Subject: Thomas Gold Obituary >>Terry Colvin's posting of Gold's petroleum theory raised some >>interesting food for thought in my hungry mind. >Anyone with 5 neurons left wiggling is left with the really >awful question where tomorrow's energy is coming from. >All countries face this matter, and it isn't pretty. 39-cent >gasoline is an artifact of the past. [damn!] >This leaves the door open for the 'free lunch' bunch, but don't >get me started on that. >Crude at 50 or 60 bucks a barrel was hypothesized long ago >based on the kindest charts and projections. Almost nobody >listened and here we are. >Now let us drag ourselves, kicking and coughing into the 21st century, _divorcing_ ourselves from every need for oil. >We remain idiots, but are not completely stupid. Hi Larry and Josh, Apparently Gold was a plagerist, though that doesn't negate the science that was done, whether by him or the ones he plagerized. See:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:47:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >If we applied your standards here Josh, then no UFO conference >would ever take place anywhere in the world.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:51:39 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:51:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 >Subject: Ufology's Internal War >How is Ufology supposed to be defined? I cannot speak for >others, but I think it is a field of study I think that Wendy eloquently and concisely provided us with a description of Ufology. My initial post was an attempt to draw attention to the fact that the upcoming symposium in Toronto in September had announced an agenda that was far, far, far removed from this. This resulted in tangents in the form of philosophic meanderings about evidence and truth, accusations of indirectly trying to force people's beliefs and what they should think, lengthy "spacious" (as in 'empty') arguements that nobody but the government and the media is responsible for the bad state of Ufology, even denials that Ufology is _ in_ a bad state. If Wendy's description of what Ufology is is accurate (and I believe she hit it right on) then ufology is _indeed_ in a bad state. That's not to say that it doesn't have a lot of competent investigators/researchers (it does), that it hasn't accomplished a lot (it certainly has), or that there aren't a lot of people out there in the public, the media, and the scientific community who understand this (there is). Only that it/they are the exception rather than the rule and that the 'imposters' are making a bigger noise than we are and getting more attention - and that there is more of them. To contribute to this, as is the upcoming Toronto symposium, is helping us to get lost within this flood of Ufoologists (pronounced u-FOOL-o-gists). Why pick three out of four speakers who go so far away from the facts if your position is "Either we are alone or we are not? From all of my analysis, I would suggest that the mountain of excellent data supports the latter position. That in no way means that I know what we are dealing with; I just know that something is there. This goes beyond inviting people who have different viewpoints than one's own. This is promoting their views _over_ your own! And it certainly doesn't help the people out there who don't know anything about the subject and who may be trying to make sense of it, or to make up their minds. From where I stand, Stan Friedman being a speaker there is the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Humans May Have Put Life On Mars From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:57:20 -0400 Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars NASA: Life On Mars! aka We Screwed Up! ----- Source: The Scottish Daily Record - Glasgow Jul 18 2005 http://tinyurl.com/9oy7j Martian Mix-Up Jul 18 2005 Scientists believe humans may have put life on Mars. The US space agency NASA believe two space craft that landed on the planet last year may have carried bacteria from Earth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Review: Alien Autopsy Inquest From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:40:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:59:05 -0400 Subject: Review: Alien Autopsy Inquest Alien Autopsy Inquest by Philip Mantle Reviewed by Ed Gehrman For the last ten years I've been at odds with the majority of the UFO community by arguing for the legitimacy of Ray Santilli's alien autopsy fotage. One of my key books of reference during this discord has been "Beyond Roswell" by Michael Hesemann & Philip Mantle. I consider it an enormous resource and a must-read by anyone eager to negotiate the AA labyrinths. Now Philip Mantle has assembled another hugely diverse collection of Alien Autopsy facts, interviews, eyewitness testimony and expert opinion, and has arranged this material in an easily understood and readable fashion. It's all there, in "Alien Autopsy Inquest" from beginning to end. All the particulars that are pertinent to the AA discussion are included: the history, timelines, controversies, interviews, photos, physician's reports, etc, a glorious hodge-podge of minutiae. But the basic story is very simple and easy to understand. On June 1st, 1947 , the person known as the "cameraman" was called to General McMullen's office and told to prepare for a special assignment to be part of a team and film the recovery of a Russian "spy plane". The team members flew that same day to Roswell and were then transported by truck to the crash site south west of Socorro, NM. When they arrived, the area was already under the Army's control: "There were injured creatures lying on the ground, obviously in pain, but the men at the site were too scared to get close. Ooh, there was a great deal of confusion until we arrived. My authority allowed me to operate as an independent as long as I didn't interfere with the clean up. When I arrived, I set up my tent and equipment and once I had light, I started shooting. How did I feel about it ? I was concerned about potential contamination, but I had no choice.the freaks kept crying out and the men were scared, but they were trained and they were ordered to go in and treat it like a war situation. Their first job was to recover the objects the freaks were holding just in case they were weapons of some kind. I filmed the assault on the freaks to get these objects. It turned out they were not weapons, but control units of some kind. The freaks didn't want to let them go, but they didn't stand a chance, we got 'em. Once the units were secured, the freaks were removed. (Cameraman's Japanese TV interview)* *All quotes are taken from the "Alien Autopsy Inquest" The cameraman stayed at the crash site until all the debris was recovered. The creatures were transported to a make-shift clinic on the base at Ft. Worth and the craft and debris were sent to Wright-Patterson. About three weeks later the cameraman was asked to film three "autopsies"over a two months' period. He also processed all the film himself. Somewhere along the way, how isn't exactly clear, the cameraman acquired and kept an unknown number of reels and stored them for forty-five years. He sold twenty-three of these reels to Ray for $100,000. Here's what Ray thought about the deal: ". I have the advantage of dealing with the cameraman first hand. I'm not dealing with second hand information, it's a person (the cameraman) I've known on and off for two years, I've had various meetings with him, we've managed to go through his diaries, his records, his photo album. We've seen his collection of old cameras, and you know, we've heard all the stories. The guy is genuine, I know he's genuine, I believe that the footage is genuine, but in time only people that can do more research will be able to judge it more critically." (Ray Santilli interview with Philip Mantle; June 25th 1995.) Reg Presley was also involved with the AA from the start. Here's his take on Ray and the purchase: " Ray Santilli is in no way a researcher, he would be the first person to tell you that. However, Ray would have had to do some research into the autopsy footage to find out if it had any likelihood of being authentic before putting up monies to secure it. Also he must have been happy with the results of the research or he would not have got a financial backer involved. Volker Spielberg, a wealthy businessman parted with 100,00 dollars. That's not saying the footage is genuine, just that he and Volker must have been happy with their results." The secret to understanding the Alien Autopsy is believing Ray Santilli. There is no reason to believe he isn't telling the truth. There's no known dishonesty in his past. I hired a Voice Stress Analyst to study Ray's interview during the Fox TV presentation. His report indicated that Ray was not being deceptive and was very calm. Ray seems limited in what he can tell us and how cooperative he can be, but even so he's allowed the AA CD set to be sold at no profit to him and he's given several interviews. Here's an excerpt from his last interview with Philip Mantle: (PM) What would you say to the critics who are confident that the film is a hoax? RS: Prove it. You know, as simple as that, prove it. I mean after six (now eight) years the film has had millions of pounds all over the world spent on it, in imagery and so forth and analysis, and still no one is any the wiser, and it' takes someone better than me to create a hoax like that, so if someone thinks it's a hoax well then simply prove it PM: Have you got anything further you would like to say that you have not previously said in public, any new facts any new information, anything at all that you would like to say. RS: I think there is nothing I can say that has any real weight, I think that the release of more materials later on, not necessarily by me but by the family I think will help qualify the story, and if the cameraman does come out and decides to talk to the world that's even better, but there is nothing I can really add at the moment, you know, it is what it is. Few researchers have spent time actually viewing the footage. Those who have usually come away with the feeling that the film is genuine or at least a very expensive and elaborate undertaking. Dennis Murphy spent hundreds of hours scrutinizing the debris footage; here are his conclusions: The "Santilli Footage" consists of four different films that include the debris footage, the tent footage and the dissections of two different entities. Every detail that is put in a hoax film cost money and increases the risk of exposure as a fraud. It would seem that if this film was a hoax that there would be as little detail as possible. There is enough detail in the debris footage to convince me that it would be expensive to produce. If this film is a hoax it was well researched, elaborately scripted and was therefore an expensive undertaking. If you could produce this type of detail with some process, you would be making money on producing things that would reap far greater profits than an Alien Dissection hoax film." Some researchers even seemed to enjoy themselves: ".if the film does show real aliens then we would all suffer 'pastshock' ...and no one wants to suffer from 'pastshock'. (This occurs when you find out that the history which you have been told is the 'gospel' truth is actually untrue or, at the very least, must be interpreted differently). Why would history need re-interpretation you ask? Because if they are here now, they could have been here yesterday or last year or hundreds or thousands of years ago. And I presume you can guess what that means." Bruce Maccabee An inquest is an inquiry. At the end of an enquiry there should be a resolution. That's my only argument with Philip. I've read his book and assessed the evidence; it's overwhelmingly pro Ray Santilli and the authenticity of the Alien Autopsy footage. Yet Philip sits on the fence. But his book is a must-have for all AA enthusiasts. It really all boils down to whether Ray is believable. "My conclusion is that the alien autopsy and debris footage are authentic and refer to a UFO crash which may have taken place in the 1940's. As one of the few to view the unreleased autopsy, I am ready and willing to support my opinion in front of any commission of experts. I can not rule out that the footage may be a result of disinformation by the US intelligence services, but I believe Ray Santilli and that he bought the film in good faith." Maurizio Baiata Download "Alien Autopsy Inquest"; www.filamentbooks.com then buy the AA DC set,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Auchettl From: John Auchettl <praufo.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:46:15 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:02:24 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Auchettl >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:58:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >I have read Nick's book during this list's hiatus, and may >choose to comment on it in depth at some point, but at the >moment I do not have the time. I will only say that I found his >arguments not at all convincing. I don't doubt that he is >serious in his approach and believes what he has written, but >there are just too many assumptions that don't hold water. As >we say, "Nice try, but no cigar". Hello EBK, Bob & List, Have to agree with Bob. Have read Nick's book, generally well put together, very readable, but his thesis is riddled with too many holes (factual, luck & assumptions). I was also thinking that I would also do a review and cite my reasons, to be fair to Nick. But it's a 'no go' from me. Best Regards, John Auchettl PRA - Director
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Journal Of Exopolitics Call For Papers From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:32:02 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:06:17 -0400 Subject: Journal Of Exopolitics Call For Papers Press Release: A Call For Papers =96 Journal Of Exopolitics: "Discovering Exopolitics" [Kona, Hawaii] Aloha, there is a new openness in the air as more and more people put down their fear to face the truth of our changing reality - with courage and a deepening sense of self-awareness. The extraterrestrial presence and its implications affects all our lives, it is =91the=92 most important shift humanity faces. The Exopolitics Institute is right now gathering together top minds, activists, journalists and =91contactees=92 to fulfill the goal of disseminating clear and well substantiated information to help everyone prepare together. Why is this important? Because the Institute represents an idea and a noble vision whose time has come! One important way in which the Exopolitics Institute will reach the people everywhere is through our soon to be released online Journal of Exopolitics. This Journal marks the exciting beginning of a highly credible evaluation of world events as uncovered through the important research of exopolitics. The Journal of Exopolitics will offer those at the front of this crucial new field a venue to publish their research, interviews, articles and so much more. It will become a valuable source of information for anyone wanting to understand the political implications of multiple sources of evidence concerning the extraterrestrial hypothesis; that Earth is currently being visited and monitored by extraterrestrial races. Best of all, this Journal will be free and available to the general public online. The Inaugural Edition will be released on October 1, 2005 through the Exopolitics Institute website. (For this we deeply thank all our members whose financial support makes this and other paradigm shifting projects possible.) A Call for Papers: The Journal of Exopolitics is accepting submissions for its Inaugural Edition relating to the field of exopolitics broadly defined as the key actors, institutions and processes associated with the extraterrestrial hypothesis. The Inaugural Edition is seeking articles that fit under the theme: "Discovering Exopolitics". To inquire about the applicability of topics, contact journal.nul Articles will be published in three separate sections: Experience, Analysis and Book Reviews. 'Experience' articles are shorter essays between one and two thousand words describing the author's experiences which have exopolitical significance. 'Analysis' articles are expected to be more academically rigorous with appropriate referencing, and no longer than five thousand words in length. 'Review' articles are between one and two thousand words. For full submission guidelines please visit: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Journal-Call4Papers.htm My deepest gratitude to everyone for your continued interest and support of exopolitics. Michael E. Salla. Ph.D. Founder, Exopolitics Institute
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 A Giant Red Face For NASA From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:09:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:09:57 -0400 Subject: A Giant Red Face For NASA Source: The Sunday Times - London http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1697332,00.html July 17, 2005 It's One Small Step For A Bug, A Giant Red Face For NASA Far from discovering life on Mars, NASA may have put it there. The American space agency believes the two rover spacecraft scuttling across the red planet are carrying bacteria from Earth, writes John Harlow. The bacteria, bacillus safensis, were found in a chamber in California that had been used to test the rovers. Officials believe it is likely some of the microbes, possibly from scientists=92 skin, were on board when the mission left. The craft, Spirit and Opportunity, landed on Mars last year. One key task was to look for signs of life =97 now it seems that if there are any organisms, it is man who has put them there. If proved, the contamination would raise concerns at possible breaches of a United Nations treaty to stop other planets being polluted from Earth. The claims have been made by Kasthuri Venkateswaran, a microbiologist at NASA=92s spacecraft assembly plant in Pasadena. His tests have shown the microbes could survive space travel, the landing on Mars and the planet=92s bitter -60C climate. It is believed the bacteria are living inside the electronic circuitry of the two landers. The error is revealed in Out of Eden by Alan Burdick, a book to be published in Britain this year.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Area 51 Satellite Images Via Google Maps From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0400 Subject: Area 51 Satellite Images Via Google Maps
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 TV News Special Investigating Bermuda Triangle From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:18:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:18:03 -0400 Subject: TV News Special Investigating Bermuda Triangle Source: iF MAGAZINE TV News: News Special Investigating The Bermuda Triangle To Air With Mini-Series Sci Fi Channel teams up with NBC News to investigate By: Nuts Mcdougal News Editor Published: 7/16/2005 Location: Where planes disappear and legends are born The Skinny: Sixty years ago, Flight 19 vanished into thin air over the Atlantic Ocean off the eastern coast of Florida, and the legend of the Bermuda Triangle was born. SCI FI Channel continues its ongoing commitment demystifying areas where science fiction meets science fact with a brand new investigative special, SCI FI Declassified: Bermuda Triangle Exposed - working title - it was announced today by SCI FI Channel President, Bonnie Hammer. Hosted by NBC/MSNBC news anchor Lester Holt (The Today Show, Lester Holt Live) and produced by NBC News Productions, the investigation will employ the tools of modern science to help unravel the decades old mystery of the Bermuda Triangle and unexplained disappearance of the famed "Flight 19." The special will air in December 2005 as a companion piece to SCI FI's upcoming original 6-hour miniseries, The Triangle. Over the years many theories have been put forth in an attempt to explain the strange phenomena of the Bermuda Triangle. Magnetic Vortices, space-time warps, extraterrestrial activity and an ancient energy source from the lost city of Atlantis have all been proposed as potential causes. The Bermuda Triangle is a region that continues to confound the experts with a history of unexplained disappearances dating back to the 18th century. Utilizing the latest in satellite imaging and underwater technology and marine sciences, under the supervision of the Nautical Research Group, SCI FI will sponsor an unprecedented expedition to attempt to locate the 60-year-old wreckage from the Triangle's famed lost "Flight 19" and a rescue plane - a large, twin engine PBM Mariner. On the afternoon of December 5, 1945, five Navy Avenger torpedo bombers took off from Fort Lauderdale Navel Air Station on a short routine flight. Less than two hours later, the flight leader alerted the control tower that they were lost and unable to tell in which direction they are flying. The bombers were never heard from again. A Mariner rescue plane on a mission to find the missing bombers also vanished shortly after takeoff. The largest search in maritime history could not turn up a single piece of debris. All six planes and 27 crewmen disappeared without a trace giving rise to the legend of the Bermuda Triangle. Armed with new leads from extensive research, SCI FI and NBC News Productions will team up with skilled marine archeologists to try and unveil the mysteries of the Triangle and answer the question: What happened to the missing? Bermuda Triangle Exposed will feature all-new interviews from survivors, theorists and scientists. Host Lester Holt is lead anchor for daytime news and breaking news coverage on MSNBC. He anchors coverage of "Lester Holt Live" on MSNBC weekdays and frequently co-hosts "The Today Show," when stepping in for Matt Lauer. He has served as a primary anchor for MSNBC's coverage of the biggest news events of the last several years, including Operation Iraqi Freedom, the war in Afghanistan, and also served as lead daytime anchor for MSNBC's coverage of Decision 2000. He also served as anchor of "Countdown: Iraq," and "Operation Iraqi Freedom" a nightly news telecast concentrating on the latest developments surrounding the war with Iraq, from October 2002 through May 2003. SCI FI Declassified: BERMUDA TRIANGLE EXPOSED is an NBC News Production for SCI FI. NBC News Productions is an in-house production unit serving NBC News, NBC's Entertainment Division and all of NBC-owned cable channels. Recent productions include
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:57:47 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:21:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:56:07 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:55:02 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>And instead of strutting your "right on" credentials, how >>about instead, offering your support to a fellow countryman's >>efforts to get a major Ufological conference off the ground > >in Canada. Or have I by chance hit the nail on the head and > >are there other factors flying around in the background? >Not if I think the subject they're promoting and the claims >they are making is nonsense and outlandish. Are you really >asking me to support something on the basis of "a fellow >countryman's efforts to get a major Ufological conference off >the ground in Canada" instead of on its merits? >I'm supposed to support something because "it's a fellow >countryman that's organizing it" - even if I view (as do many >others) exopolitics as nonsense? If you rationalize like this >then attempting to engage with you in a reasonable discussion >of the matter under consideration is an exercise in futility. I think it would have been more helpful if, on finding yourself unable to support the conference, you had been more circumspect regarding your comments. Exopolitics is one element of the conference, not the entirety, but the impression given is that the whole thing is a trivial waste of time. Not only is that inaccurate but also unfair. Is Canada awash with UFO conferences that you can afford to attempt to cripple one when it comes up? Would you rather there was nothing than a conference with an agenda you disliked? It's odd that New Age stuff, for example, much derided on this List, nevertheless doesn't attract this kind of venom or even attention. I suspect that many are scared of Exo and the hold it make take on Ufology. And if it does go that way, I for one would hardly be surprised. Responses like yours and others have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 FOTOCAT News Update From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:05:05 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:23:52 -0400 Subject: FOTOCAT News Update Interested readers in the development of the (Spain) Anomaly Foundation=B4s FOTOCAT Project are invited to take a look at the last News Report update: http://fotocat.blogspot.com Any collaboration to augment the worldwide census of UFO/IFO photographic cases is kindly requested from readers. Regional, State or national case listings are offered for checking purposes and review.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:18:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:26:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:16:27 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> Hello Stuart, I snipped our past posts because they take up a lot of bandwith. I just want to say that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am not going to discuss or debate those matters. I stand by my post. I fully agree with Eugene Frison's last post. I also agree with Wendy Connors' recent post on Ufology. >I also am very proud to be an American. In the last few years >>we have liberated 50 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq. >I don't think we'll go there just now. Mr. Miller, In hindsight I should have explained why I stated the above. It was in reaction to your statement in your July 16 post to Larry Hatch: "Get behind them and help make it a success. Otherwise people will think you are an American." I took that as some form of insult to Americans. I have hoped that on this list we would stay away from partisan political opinions. I feel it is off topic on this list to insult our current President or the direction of our nation, as some posters have done. What I stated above are facts and in the future I will write no more on this list regarding politics
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 30 Year UFO Collection For Sale From: Perry Petrakis <perry.petrakis.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:38:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:29:11 -0400 Subject: 30 Year UFO Collection For Sale For Sale Impressive UFO collection (30 years of Archives) from the former French SOS OVNI UFO Organization for sale. Includes over 400 books in several languages (mostly French though), Over 80 videotapes (VHS Format), Case files, Slides, Thousands of Journals from around the world as well as well as reports, proceedings, and research monographies. Can be sold by blocks (Books, tapes, etc), but for the whole collection no bid under
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Recent UK UFO Pictures From: Chris Parr <Chrissyparr.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:18:22 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:32:46 -0400 Subject: Recent UK UFO Pictures Hello EBK and List, I have received UFO photographs from the UK on June 10th 2005.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:23:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:39:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:41:36 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Best we start a new society/group from scratch without any >>mention of the term UFO to avoid the loony crowd and hopefully >>we will get some respect. >I've long felt this way! It's one of the reasons I quit MUFON to >develop the Canadian Aerial Anomalies Research Society, which >Chris Styles and I founded/incorporated in Nova Scotia in April >of 2004. Still lots of road to travel yet but, as has been said, >"a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step." Yes, stepping out of the Big Tent of Ufology is a good step. The charter of each organization seemes critical. If the organization just wants to collect and research _each_ case somehow related to aerial anomalies and find out what _each_ is (which seems to be what most if not all groups do) then this ultimately overwhelms the organization and brings in the weird cases that always make Ufology seem absurd. It almost seems like most groups are designed to be a support group and counseling center for UFO witnesses. I suppose this is a nice public service, but does it address the real reason we are interested in UFOs? We have tons of cases that people are seeing weird things but we are no closer than we were three decades ago to figuring out what they are or even providing proof that would enable duplication of results. Some groups are now focusing on the coverups and demand disclosures. In a perfect world, that would be all nice and everything except how can we trust the data source given all the mis- and dis- information about all sorts of topics. This is another waste of time. The groups we are sadly missing are the aerial anomalie field research stations throughout each country. Why haven't we got these going? What am I missing? Why is it almost always the case that people choose to research UFOs by examining the latest witness report rather than go out there and gather the data ON OUR TERMS. Witnesses however good, are not likely to have the tools needed for gathering the data we need. Also, can we ever
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:43:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>...because >>ufology is just a smirked at laughing stock anyway. This >>conference is just one in a long line of such examples. >The claim that ufology is a "laughing stock" because of >someone's opinions about ET contact is no less preposterous >than those opinions themselves. There's always a wide range of >opinions on any controversial subject and UFOs are no exception. >People who claimed that apricot pits were a cure for cancer >didn't make oncology a laughing stock. Absurd "flying machine" >contraptions that people tried to get airborn at the turn of the >century didn't make aeronautics a laughing stock, although they >did provide a lot of amusing footage for silent movie clips. I doubt that the early pioneers in aeronautics and cancer curing used telepathy, channeling, talking to dolphins to answer important questions about their science. You must not build your home on a foundation of clay(or mud). Grounding a field of research in science rather than in unproven muck is the only way to get some respect. Otherwise we have the Raeleans as our poster people. >If ufology is a laughing stock,it's only because the government >and media elites decided it should be presented that way to the >public. These are the same elites, it should always be noted, >who so easily convinced the public that Iraq's nonexistent >weapons of mass destruction were a justification for a bloody >and costly war. They are as good at convincing the public that >laughable claims are true as they are at convincing people that >serious issues are a joke. No. Ufology's Big Tent inclusive philosophy has allowed it to include disreputable, unsubstantiable elements, to the deteriment of the rest of us. People who get more respect don't even say the word UFO (amateur astronomers, amateur satellite observers). Of course, the government/media complex can make anyone look stupid if they wanted. But UFOlogy has many elements that help
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 A Future Full Of Hopes And Fears From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:49:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:49:48 -0400 Subject: A Future Full Of Hopes And Fears Source: BBC News - UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4685231.stm 16 July, 2005 A Future Full Of Hopes And Fears By Jo Twist BBC News science and technology reporter Science and technology have powered huge leaps in understanding but our biggest challenges lie ahead. The science of complexity is perhaps the greatest challenge of all, English Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees believes. The biggest conundrum is humanity and how we came to be, he told the Technology, Entertainment and Design (TED) conference in Oxford. The cosmologist said that in the 21st Century science had changed the world faster than ever before and in many new ways. "Our century is very, very special," said Professor Rees. "It is the first where humans can change themselves." Advances such as drug implants may have changed human beings profoundly already - the effects of which we could see this century. We know more about our Universe, we know how stars are fuelled, how nuclei in atoms act together, and how galaxies are held together by dark matter - huge swarms of particles. We could trace events back to the early stages of the Big Bang, but we still did not know what "banged", or even if there were multiple "bangs", explained Professor Rees. There was still a lot of "unfinished business" for humans, he said, particularly in understanding the theory that links the very large and the very small in our Universe - the theory that may lead to understand potentially different dimensions. Quarter of a second in June Professor Rees also had warnings for conference participants. "Bio and cyber technologies are environmentally benign as they offer marvellous prospects, but they will have a dark side," he said. "One technology may empower just one fanatic to trigger a global catastrophe. We have to accept the risks if we are going to enjoy the benefits of science," he said. Professor Rees called on scientists and entrepreneurs to take on the responsibility to campaign and alert the rest of the world to both the risks and benefits. Earth, after all, has a long history ahead. Even those in the field of evolutionary sciences are far from knowing how humanity will change. Computer models can only go so far when we do not even fully understand how we came about on Earth in the first instance. We have only existed, as far as we know, for a few billion years. "If you represent the Earth's lifetime in a single year, the 21st Century would be a quarter of a second in June," said Professor Rees. We are not even halfway through our allotted time on Earth before the Sun itself burns out. "Any life and intelligence that exists then will be as different from us as we are to bacteria," he explained. Our rate of population growth and our addiction to fossil fuels and consumption of resources only adds to the uncertainty about our future. Life - but not as we know it One man who is set on trying to unfold the complexity of life, and how we are made up and came to be in order to understand our future, is Craig Venter. He led the private effort to sequence the human genome - the genetic code that creates life. His next big challenge is to create living, artificial organisms from a kit of genes, and says he is well on his way. He believes an artificial single cell organism is possible in two years. "We sequenced 130 genomes this year. The rate of reading the genetic code has changed but we have barely scratched the surface," he told the conference. Microbes make up over a half of all Earth's biomass. A mouthful of seawater accidentally swallowed sends millions of different bacteria into your gut. To unravel the complexity of life on our planet in order to understand more about where humans come from, Dr Venter embarked on a round the world ocean voyage to take samples of seawater every 200 miles. At every stop he found new species. At one location, one barrelful contained 1.3 million new genes and 50,000 new species, he said. To Dr Venter, these genes are the design components of evolution, the "software that builds its own hardware". But evolution has only given us so many answers. "We need new methods to understand the biology out there. Only by trying to build it will we truly understand it," he says. But the aims of his mission are even wider than that. "We are optimistic we will have a new form of artificial life based on our knowledge of these existing genomes that provides knowledge to go forward to tackle environmental problems," he says. "We know lots of different pathways and thousands of organisms that live off carbon dioxide and can catch that back from the atmosphere." The captured carbon can then be converted to biopolymers and other new products, he believes. There are lots of pathways that can be engineered to convert methane into useful products, too. Future engineered species could be a source of food, energy, and could help regenerate damaged environments. To Dr Venter, his venture is crucial to understanding our future. He dismisses fears that if one can create artificial life once the code has been written, then this will open a "Pandora's Box" for those who want to play God or take us to an era of bioterror. "Almost every major religion requires humans to try to improve society," he says. One certainty in an uncertain world is clear to Professor Rees:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 2 Recent Crop Circle Research Reports From BLT From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:57:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:57:38 -0400 Subject: 2 Recent Crop Circle Research Reports From BLT 2 Recent Crop Circle Research Reports From BLT With Images --- Vinje, Snasa, Norway - December 11, 2003 http://www.bltresearch.com/vinje.htm ---
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:57:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:01:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:05:14 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:37:06 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>The finest? Hang around, Sir. I may yet show you that one man's >>"specious" is another man's "spacious." >Hmmmm ... what to do for the rest of the afternoon? I _could_ go >teeth-to-teeth in a battle with Alfred to see who could compose >the longest and best sophistry. I could even get really into it >and weave all the big words that I know into it. Heck, I could >even run and get the dictionary and find all kinds of other big >words that I'm not familiar with, just to make it even more >impressive. Naw, I've an alleged UFO abduction report on my desk >to write up here - think I'll work on that instead as it's a >whole lot more productive. >[end of my involvement with this tangent] How unpleasantly fatuous. Running off the field as you shout insults over your shoulder? But by all means, Sir, have it your way.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Argentina: UFO Wave in the Wings? From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:01:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:22:37 -0400 Subject: Argentina: UFO Wave in the Wings? INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology July 18, 2005 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Source: Planeta UFO Date: July 17, 2005 Argentina: UFO Wave In The Wings? According to statistical studies and the Decimal Hypothesis put forth by researcher Luis Burgos - UFO manifestations every 10 years in places prone to such visits - there is a great possibility that Argentina and its neighboring countries will become the target for new massive UFO incursions during the second half of this year. According to Burgos, director of the Fundacion Argentina de Ovnilog=EDa (FAO) headquartered in La Plata, unidentified flying objects would be mainly seen in the provinces of Buenos Aires, La Pampa, Cordoba and certain areas of the littoral and Cuyo between the hours of 21:00 and 02:00 hours. According to his calculations, potential witnesses would see, "luminous phenomena in the heavens, report creatures on the surface, would detect prints in the fields, perceive explosions at high altitude and capture photo or video evidence." In other words, events similar to the ones that occurred previously in 1965, 1975, 1985 and 1995 throughout the South American region and which had a predictive efficiency of between 70 to 80%. The most immediate background event goes back to spring of 2005, when at least fifty 'strange impressions' were reported, accompanied by several cases of unusual lights in various partts of the province of Buenos Aires. Finally, Burgos explains that this announcement is independent of any effect on the population, whether it be the recent cinematic debut of War of the Worlds, as well as the upcoming nearby opposition of the planet Mars to Earth, scheduled for the month of October, since these UFO studies were conducted, as well as in previous years, many months in advance. For more information: Fundacion Argentina de Ovnilog=EDa (FAO) www.cienciaovni.com.ar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:05:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:26:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Friedman >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:58:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:42:01 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary - Goldstein >>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:24:31 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Thomas Gold Obituary >>>Terry Colvin's post of Gold's petroleum theory raised some >>>interesting food for thought in my hungry mind. >>Anyone with 5 neurons left wiggling is left with the really >>awful question where tomorrow's energy is coming from. >>All countries face this matter, and it isn't pretty. 39-cent >>gasoline is an artifact of the past. [damn!] >>This leaves the door open for the 'free lunch' bunch, but don't >>get me started on that. >>Crude at 50 or 60 bucks a barrel was hypothesized long ago >>based on the kindest charts and projections. Almost nobody >>listened and here we are. >>Now let us drag ourselves, kicking and coughing into the 21st >>century, _divorcing_ ourselves from every need for oil. >>We remain idiots, but are not completely stupid. >Apparently Gold was a plagerist, though that doesn't negate the >science that was done, whether by him or the ones he plagerized. >See: >http://www.gasresources.net/Gold_plagiarism(complaints).htm Outstanging effort, Don, and really appreciated. Made
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:07:45 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:28:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Friedman >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFOUpdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:51:39 -0300 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >My initial post was an attempt to draw attention to the fact >that the upcoming symposium in Toronto in September had >announced an agenda that was far, far, far removed from this. <snip> >To contribute to this, as is the upcoming Toronto symposium, is >helping us to get lost within this flood of Ufoologists >(pronounced u-FOOL-o-gists). >Why pick three out of four speakers who go so far away from the >facts if your position is "Either we are alone or we are not? <snip> >From where I stand, Stan Friedman being a speaker there is the >only redeeming thing about the whole scheduled event. He has >been giving the burden of making the event appear responsible.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:48:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:58:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Smith >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 >Subject: Ufology's Internal War >How is Ufology supposed to be defined? I cannot speak for >others, but I think it is a field of study involving >manufactured craft, that transcends our current technological >development. Thus, cryptoaeronautics, or aircraft of unknown >origin. Ufology began as a fortean subject, but now stands on >its own and separate in relation to crop circles, ghosts, animal >mutilation, sky falls, etc. Although your definition may work for some, the problem is that it assumes an outcome and does not cover all the people in the field. One would think that Ufology would be about unidentified flying objects, but many cases have no known "flying object" associated with them. I think ufology still has the Fortean definition, with all the resulting folk and more (telepathy, channeling, abductions, alien 'sex'). Your new term crypto-aeronautics is not right, although the flavor is right. For one thing "crypto" currently does not have a good connotation, thanks to crypto-zoology. Do you want your work tied to Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster? Let's try to use some sort of term that has some scientific basis in objectivity. Using the term crypto (meaning secret or hidden) implies the object is hidden or secret. For cryptograms and related terms associated with communications, it is a clearly obvious term to use. There, the purpose of "crypto" is to make something secret or hidden. However, in the case of "zoology" or "aeronautics", the assumption is that something is being made secret or IS hidden. Bigfoot or 'UFOs' may not be secret, they might just be out there, waiting to be found. Also, both may not be considered hidden since obviously we get a helluva lot of reports, photos, videos of them. Also, it assumes they want to be hidden. If UFOs wanted to be hidden, we would not even know there are UFOs. No, they stick out like a nose on a face. Also, "Aeronautics" or "aircraft" would imply that such vehicles _only_ stay in the air (or water for nautics). Not space. Since most of the theories involve "space" then it makes sense to soemhow include it. >Is it possible for Ufology to overcome the riddle factor and >become a science unto itself? Yes. But only to a core group of >researchers at this point because Ufology has reached the level >it needs to be taught and specialities formed. If Ufology is not >taught, continuation of rampant misinformation will continue to >apply and Ufology will remain a chaotic field of study. Anyone >who studies Ufology critically, takes no theory as an absolute. I guess I don't know exactly what you mean by teaching Ufology. You mean college level courses? You mean on-line coursework and that you get CEUs or an honorary badge from MUFON or what? Colleges have a lot of weirder coursework, but finding someone to teach it is going to be a problem. I also think that it may be better to call the course something other than Ufology 101, since the basic problem is teaching people how to apply science to understand/research anomalous phenomena in general. By the way, alot can be done by having a peer review site for UFO research (Not JSE!!! that is _not_ peer review). >So, who are the best Ufologists researching today? Those who >maintain the databases, uncovers new documentation, gathers >unbiased reports, maintains trace evidence and brings the >history of the subject to the public arenas. There are hundreds >of competent Ufologists working today. I notice you did not mention doing instrumented UFO field research. That is a significant omission because the ONLY way we are going to resolve this UFO issue is through efforts like Project Hessadalen and Ray Stanford's past type of work. The rest of the items you mention, while very interesting, don't seem to ever be enough. >Unfortunately, they are >outnumbered by the tens of thousands of people who don't have a >clue to what they are doing, but bring their dog and pony shows >(belief systems) for permanent public display. Do these people _want_ to have a clue? Maybe they would be very
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:14:45 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:09:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:43:05 -0700 >Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:41:24 +0200 >>Subject: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Robert Durant has authorized me to post his list of questions on >>Nick Redfern's book, Body Snatchers in the Desert. Here they >>are, following my own list of questions, posted earlier: >Gildas, >I sent answers to Bob's 4 questions on 24 June, 5.29 PM. >They're below: >>1. Is the Redfern flying device that crashed and gave rise to >>the Roswell testimony a credible piece of flying machinery? >>By Redfern's account, it consisted of either a huge balloon or a >>collection of balloons that provided lift for the payload. >>The payload was a flying-wing controllable glider that may or >>may not have been powered by a propeller. The glider carried >>four Japanese pilots of very small stature and weight, but four >>nevertheless, plus at least some additional equipment. >>What record is there of such a device? >>Would it make any sense to an aeronautical engineer? >>In July 1947, what balloon or collection of balloons could have >>lifted all that weight? Note also that this device was designed, >>per Redfern's story, to fly at least high enough to consistently >>use the jet stream winds, and this means at least 25,000 feet. >>Thus the device would need to include heating and oxygen >>supplies sufficient for flight lasting several hours in the case >>of a test, or several days in the case of use as a weapon >>against the Soviet Union, which is what Redfern says was the >>goal. Or so I think. But that is the kind of question that >>readers should be asking as they scan the pages of this book. >Answer 1: I was able to prove that in the closing stages of >the War, the Japanese were planning to build huge balloons, >underneath which would be attached a gondola big enough to hold >4 guys. They were to be approx 5 feet tall, because weight, >space, etc., was a premium. US newspapers of the day cited in >the book talk about this and references to "death defying >Japanese" manning the "pressurized gondolas", which would be >equipped with water, food and oxygen tanks to afford protection >for high-altitude flights to the US - to a height of around >30,000 feet as the balloons undertook their 4-day flight to the >US. So this is a prime example of small men, in an advanced, >pressurized gondola attached to a huge balloon system. Quite >Roswell like, I think. These manned-balloon flights were >referenced in US newspapers in 45. Nick and All, I am quite ready to believe that the Japanese had such a project, with "death defying" pilots. They had already Kamikazes ! One first remark is that, if they were willing to risk their lives for their country, would they be as well for an obscure experiment led by former enemies? Anyway, I don't think you really answer the series of questions of Bob Durant. Especially on the records of such experiments in White Sands. You don't have any. You don't have any record either on alleged secret planes,or "lifting bodies" derived from Hortens projects. >>2. How does the description of the device, either pristine or >>after a crash, comport with the record of Roswell witness >>descriptions? I refer here to the testimony that describes the >>material, not the elaborate "I saw the aliens rolling around in >>the sand" stories like those of Kauffman, Ragsdale and Dennis. >>For example, the testimony of Sergeant Lewis Rickett and Jesse >>Marcel, Jr., to name only two. Note that much witness testimony >>has been invoked by both the Mogul and the Spaceship proponents. >>Will that testimony also fit the Redfern thesis? >>Seems to me that if one is to explain Roswell in Redfern's >>terms, the extensive, thoroughly documented witness testimony >>must be addressed in detail. How well does Redfern accomplish >>that task? >Answer 2: The scenario I have is actually not that different to >the ET theory and witnesses. We both talk about more than one >crash site, both talk about bodies found, both talk about >military cordons, both talk about a cover-up. In fact, really >the only major difference is the interpretation of what the >people were looking at when they came across the materials, not >whether they saw something or not. I agree that your story fits more or less to some aspects of the Roswell file. But it is not a proof that it is true. BTW, there is one big missing piece, though: the impact site close to Roswell. Even if we forget about Kaufmann and Ragsdale, there is still a series of witnesses pointing to such a site. For instance Lewis Rickett and Chester Barton who both mentioned a site at a 45 minutes drive north of Roswell. Cavitt took Rickett there, not to the Foster ranch, as you wrongly said (p. 15), repeating a mistake of Karl Pflock. Why did you drop that site? It is very important. It is probably where the craft and beings were discovered, not forgetting that a body may have also been found on the Foster Ranch. Yes, it is a very complex story, and there is a lot more
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:43:37 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:12:03 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:16:49 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >>Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' ><snip> >>I have another comment to make on your claim that the famous >>autopsy footage showed a human handicapped with progeria (chap >>16). That has been already discarded by almost everybody on this >>list, including me, but here is another angle of the story. If >>your theory were right, it would have been incredibly foolish to >>release such a film! In any case, the American and British >>secret services, working together, had plenty of time to block >>its release in London, discreetly, if they wanted to. We would >>have heard no more of the film, vague rumors at best. On the >>other hand, if the purpose was to trash the UFO crash theory, it >>was highly effective. The Alien Autopsy Film was a scandal, and >>a disaster, not only for Roswell, but for ufology as a whole. >Hi Gildas, >The only scandal concerning the AA was the manner in which >influential members UFO community trashed it before examining it >closely. >There is still no evidence of any kind that the footage was >hoaxed or fraudulently created, yet folks are still making >derogatory and uninformed comments like yours. Hi Ed, and All I think that your two statements are unfair: to the UFO community, and to me. Many ufologists spent an lot of time studying the film, and gave elaborate opinions, such as on the site v-j enterprises, including me. See mine at: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/bourdais.html On the nature of the body, my opinion was, and still is "undecided" However, I suspect, more than ever, that is was a vey complex and confusing operation of misinforrmation, if not plain disinformation. When I was invited by Jacques Pradel at his TV show in France, I suggested that it might be also a long term operation of gradual release of information. >The AA and the Roswell incident are connected since the >creatures seem similar; both have six fingers - the MP's >testimony. But the cameraman and Ray Santilli were mistaken when >they tried to put the footage into the Roswell context. They are connected mainly because Santilli said so, at a time when he was not able to spell Roswell correctly, as Bob Shell recalls. On the question of the number of fingers, the Roswell beings had four, according to Glenn Dennis, and five according to Kaufmann. Now you mention the testimony of an anonymous soldier, allegedly audiotaped in 1996 by another anonymous military witness, who saw a film in secret storage in Alaska, in 1960 or 1961. I read this story in the book of Linda Howe "Glimpses of Other Realities.Vol. 2. High Strangeness" published in 1998. She called these witnesses Reed (the soldier) and Peter Bostrom. That's an interesting testimony, but it might be another fragile one. First, it appeared after the AA film, and in the book it is suggested that the label "Roswell" on the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:18:35 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:08:28 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >>Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>First, about the alleged transfer of prisoners from Unit 731 in >>Manchuria to the United States, supposedly in order to continue >>the horrible human experiments made there by the Japanese, the >>question is: did it really happen? >Gildas, >Go to page 166 of the book. You will see that I include >extracts of an officially declassified document on Project >Sunshine. >This was a 1950s operation that was designed to "snatch" >bodies, body-parts and bones for use in human radiation >experiments. Indeed, the term "body-snatching" turns up numerous >times within that document. <snip> >If - 10 years after the War - the US and the AFSWP could act as >"body snatchers" to get human materials from a Formosa hospital >(for human radiation tests remember), do you really think it is >out of the question that human materials could not be got from >Manchuria a decade earlier? I think not. Bear in mind, these are >official documents. Nick, I don't deny that this is an interesting story, but it brings absolutely no proof that prisoners - deformed or not - would have been brought from Unit 731 in Manchuria. According to all established historical sources, they were all killed, just before the arrival of Soviet troops, because nothing, nobody, was to fall into their hands. So, the story told by your insiders is false. >>These little, fat gliders were not the best design to carry a >>team of Japanese handicapped prisoners, in great secrecy, >>hanging under a huge balloon, in White Sands in 1947! >You have made a fundamental error here that a number of people >who have read the book have made. It's certainly not due to me >not referencing it in the book, so I can only assume it's due >to people racing to read the book so they can post messages, >and missing certain critical points. >Here is your error: the handicapped were used in the high- >altitude balloon tests and the nuclear aircraft angles. The >device that crashed at Roswell had _no_ handicapped people on at >all. I make it very clear that these people were a crew that had >been trained in Japan to fly this device. They were pilots, but >trained because they were somewhat short men, around 5 feet in >height. Short but not handicapped. <snip> I admit that I was somewhat confused by the many stories in your book. I note that you insist on the idea of experiments on handicapped beings, from the beginning to the end of the book. Progeria appears already on page 6 ! You introduce more than once the idea that these deformed beings were at the origin of the "alien body legends", although they did not land in the area of Roswell. And that they were used on aircrafts, not only on "gondolas". For instance, page 85: "Of key relevance is the fact that a number of these people, said Levine, were dwarves, handicapped, with enlarged heads, and were used in a variety of experiments in the New Mexico desert that involved everything from biological warfare to high-altitude tests linked with prototype aircrafts developed in the immediate postwar era. This, said Levine, was where the stories of alien bodies from crashed UFOs had their origins". Again, this time according to Barker (p. 92): "...he asserted that it was bodies that were recovered at White Sands and nearby in the New Mexico desert and led directly to the "alien bodies" legends." You insist right away on the idea, in the following paragraph: "An examination of available data reveals astonishing similarities between descriptions of people exhibiting these conditions and the descriptions of the bodies recovered in the aftermath of the events at Roswell and elsewhere in the New Mexico desert in 1947". Confusion again with Barker, commenting on experiments of "nuclear exposure from the aircraft's power source" (of a future nuclear plane) (p. 96): "These were the purposes of using the guinea pig crews in balloons and at least two airplane flight tests". I stop here but I could probably find more confusing examples. So, you see, the reader has to be confused, between balloons, gondolas, aircrafts, handicapped Japanese, or not, etc. That is not all. Your reply raises another big question. If the bodies found near Roswell were not handicapped, weird looking people, this eliminates an eventual - if improbable - cause of confusion. The supposition that the people of Roswell, civilians and military alike, could have perceived them as alien beings from another planet, becomes even more remote. I just cannot imagine such an incredible mistake. Even more incredible that taking balloon and aircraft debris for an alien flying disk. Another thing is, in your reply, you dropped the question of the lifting bodies, totally inadequate for such an experiment, and which were flown decades later, at Edwards AFB. As for aircrafts derived from Horten projects, they never existed. That's a dead end. >>There is just a word to say about Nazi flying saucers stories, >>which you seem to believe, in your chapter 12 "Hitler's Disks". >>These stories, which appeared at the beginning of the fifties >>(at a time when a policy of systematic UFO debunking was put in >>practice) have long since been discarded by all serious aviation >>historians. >I am well aware that much of the Nazi saucer angle has been >(rightfully - we agree on that much, at least) debunked. It is >for that reason that to back up the claims of the interviewees, >I only cited officially declassified FOIA documents on Nazi >Saucers and similar craft. Nick, I don't understand why you insist so much on the so-called Nazi Flying saucers. They existed only on paper! They have nothing to do with Roswell, and the wave of 1947. >>Now, let's turn to the central piece of your book, the alleged >>top secret White Sands experiment. Now, you have just answered a >>question of John Sawyer (July 15). You cite another version >>given by the Colonel (p. 106): "a device had been incorporated >>into the vehicle that was designed to convert heat energy from >>an atomic pile into electrical energy". This is even more >>confusing. Was it just radioactive material (p. 108), or an >>atomic pile (p. 106)? >I agree this _is_ confusing, primarily because this is one of >the areas that the "Colonel" was highly uncomfortable about >discussing (see the 3rd paragraph down, page 106). The point is >that it would have been much easier for me to have completely >omitted this from the book. But I didn't because I wanted to >supply the reader with as much data as possible. You book is confusing again, regarding the nuclear side of your story. On page 9 (the "Black Widow"), it's a matter of "loading radioactive material". Later it becomes a special device to produce electricity. It certainly could not be an atomic reactor. Could it be an isotopic generator, like in later space satellites ? I doubt that it existed already. But then, what about the irradiation experiments, the horrible secret to hide at all costs ? Let's see what Stan Friedman will say about that. >As I told Stan F yesterday off-list, more is coming through on >this, including data on this "device" and the way in which the >US utilized the technology developed by the 3 Paperclip guys >(who were at Wright, Ohio, in 1948, incidentally). <snip> >>That's were the Roswell file comes in: this story fits >>nicely with the dubious tale of the cameraman (revealed by >>Santilli with the "alien autopsy film"), of a crash in the White >>Sands area, with "freaks" and dangerous radioactivity on the >>site. >Yes, that is something that very few people have noticed (or >commented on, at least): that the scenario of screaming people >on the desert floor in the vicinity of a weird-looking aircraft >is very similar to the cameraman's story. I recommend you read >Phil Mantle's Alien Autopsy Inquest. Y know the cameraman's story and, at the risk of shocking some members of this List, let me say this: I don't believe a word of it. <snip> >>I wish to add a couple of remarks on that matter. You cite >>Jacques Vallee who mentioned Saran as a possible culprit for a >>confusion (p. 123): "Aluminized Saran, also known as Silvered >>Saran, came from technology already available for laboratory >>work in 1948. It was paper-thin, was not dented by a hammer blow >>and was restored to a smooth finish after crushing". >>First, Roswell was in 1947, not 1948. >Correct - but the point is that technology of this description >was being worked on in the late 1940s. Nick, you dropped my finding about Saran being too fragile for balloons, as shown in the USAF Roswell Report. Now, about the possible confusion between a balloon and a mysterious, high performance "flying disk", I will just stick to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:51:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:19:40 -0400 Subject: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman Eric Julien/Jean Ederman was reportedly piloting an alien space ship when he disappeared for awhile (so it is claimed). I was given these two reports that were based on investigations of this claim. Unfortunately, they are in French. But, I'm sure some list members will be able to read them! Julien/Ederman reportedly was discovered NOT to be actualizing his pilot training on an alien ship, but instead had returned to his old home on French Reunion Island. He reportedly emailed his girlfriend from there in order to end a police investigation into his disappearance.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>If we applied your standards here Josh, then no UFO >>conference would ever take place anywhere in the world. >And exactly why would that be a bad thing? Two responses for you John. The first is my personal reaction. The second is more in keeping with what you'd like to hear. Response 1 Coming from someone who organises mothly pub meetings to discuss the other side of the coin, that's a bit rich. You're right John. There should be no interaction, no socialising, no communicating, no exposure to new ideas or new research. Ufolgists should remain in their homes, isolated from everything else, just err working? Stuart Response 2 You're quite right John. Then the snake oil salesmen and assorted con artists would be deprived of earning a living and taking money off the poor, gullible public. So, when are you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:48:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:10:17 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gehrman >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:43:37 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:16:49 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >>>Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >><snip> >>>I have another comment to make on your claim that the famous >>>autopsy footage showed a human handicapped with progeria (chap >>>16). That has been already discarded by almost everybody on this >>>list, including me, but here is another angle of the story. If >>>your theory were right, it would have been incredibly foolish to >>>release such a film! In any case, the American and British >>>secret services, working together, had plenty of time to block >>>its release in London, discreetly, if they wanted to. We would >>>have heard no more of the film, vague rumors at best. On the >>>other hand, if the purpose was to trash the UFO crash theory, it >>>was highly effective. The Alien Autopsy Film was a scandal, and >>>a disaster, not only for Roswell, but for ufology as a whole. >>The only scandal concerning the AA was the manner in which >>influential members UFO community trashed it before examining it >>closely. >>There is still no evidence of any kind that the footage was >>hoaxed or fraudulently created, yet folks are still making >>derogatory and uninformed comments like yours. >I think that your two statements are unfair: to the UFO >community, and to me. Many ufologists spent an lot of time >studying the film, and gave elaborate opinions, such as on the >site v-j enterprises, including me. See mine at: >http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/bourdais.html >On the nature of the body, my opinion was, and still is >"undecided" However, I suspect, more than ever, that is was a >vey complex and confusing operation of misinforrmation, if not >plain disinformation. Gildas, The AA could be anything but why not answer this simple question first. Is Ray Santilli a liar and the cameraman a figment of his imignation? Do you have any evidence? >When I was invited by Jacques Pradel at >his TV show in France, I suggested that it might be also a long >term operation of gradual release of information. It was a SNAFU. Ray purchased the film and gave it to us almost free of charge. It was pure luck and the ufologists are suckers for not taking advantage of their good fortune. >>The AA and the Roswell incident are connected since the >>creatures seem similar; both have six fingers - the MP's >>testimony. But the cameraman and Ray Santilli were mistaken when >>they tried to put the footage into the Roswell context. >They are connected mainly because Santilli said so, at a time >when he was not able to spell Roswell correctly, as Bob Shell >recalls. On the question of the number of fingers, the Roswell >beings had four, according to Glenn Dennis, and five according >to Kaufmann. Now you mention the testimony of an anonymous >soldier, allegedly audiotaped in 1996 by another anonymous >military witness, No you've got this all wrong! See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m01-002.shtml >who saw a film in secret storage in Alaska, >in 1960 or 1961. I read this story in the book of Linda Howe >"Glimpses of Other Realities.Vol. 2. High Strangeness" published >in 1998. She called these witnesses Reed (the soldier) and Peter >Bostrom. That's an interesting testimony, but it might be >another fragile one. First, it appeared after the AA film, and >in the book it is suggested that the label "Roswell" on the >archive box might be "a catchcall label" for a series of craft >and body retrievals in New Mexico from 1947 onward" (p. 41). I barely remember this; I'll look it up; thanks for the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:11:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:14:45 +0200 >Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Nick and All, >I don't think you >really answer the series of questions of Bob Durant. Especially >on the records of such experiments in White Sands. You don't >have any. You don't have any record either on alleged secret >planes,or "lifting bodies" derived from Hortens projects. Gildas No I don't have records, but I do have testimony of people whose credentials (military records, tax records, and photographs at their places of employment in the right time frame check out with 100 per cent certainty). I note that you dispute the data in part because I don't possess the Holy Grail of Ufological evidence in terms of records that conclusively prove this. But neither do those who propose a UFO crash for Roswell - but that doesn't stop you believing that scenario, does it? Ever heard of the term "double standards"? Hmmm...? >Why did you drop that site? I didn't "drop" the site. What I did was to focus upon what still-living people were telling me about the site that they had an awareness of. Cavitt and Rickett are dead so I couldn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 UFOs In Minnesota? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:18:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:18:25 -0400 Subject: UFOs In Minnesota? Source: KMSP Tv FOX 9 - Eden Prairie, Minnesota http://www.fox9.com/news/investigators/story.asp?1647131 18 July 2005 UFOs In Minnesota? Ed Kratt says, "It was real." May 21st: The front page of the Fergus Falls Journal goes to press with an unusual story by reporter Brandon Stahl. "To say something like this, it's a story. That's news," says Stahl. Fergus Falls is only 177 miles from the Twin Cities. A town where everyone knows your name, and cops hear it all. Deputy Sheriff Stacy Paulseth, says, "It is strange." Kratt, a witness, says, "Unexplainable." It was a night when Kratt woke up at 3 a.m. and went out on the deck to smoke a cigarette. "I saw this orange thing coming through the trees," says Kratt. Kratt drew this picture of what he saw. "Bright orange triangle=85glow around of the edges of it...the size of a full moon=85I'm looking at a UFO," says Kratt. Two other Fergus Falls residents say they saw the same UFO. The national UFO reporting center claims there have been 400 UFO sightings in Minnesota. Since 1947. Some of the Minnesota sightings this year: June 18th. Granite Falls. Cigar triangular shape, Changing colors across skyline. June 7th. Eagan. Five dark round circles. March 21st. Anoka. Faint orange lights. March 8th. St Paul. Blue glowing sphere descends to Earth. At the local diner in Fergus Falls, there is obvious skepticism, and curiosity. Space creatures. Visitors from another planet. This is where the UFO controversy is divided. Astronomers, Scientists, and UFO researchers all agree on only one point. People do see UFO=92s. "It's unknown to them. So it's a UFO," says Lauren Nelson, an astronomer. Nelson navigates a photographic plane looking for UFO evidence. He doesn't expect to see aliens. "I have a better chance of winning the Powerball," he says. As an amateur astronomer, Nelson looks out into the night sky to study the solar system. Looking into UFO sightings is not as easy. He says, "People who are best qualified to see it, never see it." The Minnesota chapter of Mutual UFO Network, MUFON, investigates 20 - 30 sightings every year. "There was a light in the sky," says Richard Moss, MUFON. Moss is a retired science teacher and MUFON state director, and has personally witnessed a UFO, and can tell real from fake. He says, "Change of colors. Change of shape. The fast getaway. They're there. They're gone." MUFON talks to people who have seen aliens. And been onboard a spacecraft as well. "The big question isn't even where they're from. It's what or who are they or what do they want here," says Moss. Kratt says, "We are pretty nice people in Minnesota." The people who have seen these so-called aliens, have given MUFON clear descriptions. Craig Lang, MUFON investigator, says the one he saw was "Three or so feet tall, long arms four fingers. Big black eyes, no hair. Kind of grayish." Lang says statistically, research shows there are 1-2 close encounters in the Twin Cities everyday. He shows us a four- finger handprint, reportedly from someone not like us. Lang uses hypnosis on witnesses who claim they were abducted. "I've interviewed enough people that lead me to believe that there's something very unusual going on," says Lang. "If they landed on my lawn, I wouldn't want to go peacefully, says Kratt. Getting people to talk on TV about their close encounters is nearly impossible says Lang. He says, "There's a big fear of ridicule." And no absolute proof, says U of M astronomy and physics professor Robert Gehrz. "As a scientist, I have never seen a piece of credible evidence that we have been visited from outer space," says Gehrz. There is so much in the sky that can be misinterpreted as flying saucers. Gehrz says, "I get a lot of calls about UFOs when Venus becomes a bright evening or morning star." Or Jupiter, which is also a bright planet. Or planes flying from a distance. Or satellites. Nelson says, "I've seen three satellites traveling as a group." Last summer, several people in the Twin Cities thought this was a UFO. Turns out it was a pretty balloon. Moss says, "Balloons probably are responsible for some of the number of sightings." Since man can remember, there have been UFO sightings. Ed Kratt's story is one of thousands. I'm just a normal guy you know that just happened to see
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:03:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:19:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >There should be no interaction, no >socialising, no communicating, no exposure to new ideas or new >research. Do you think we've been saying "There should be no interaction, no socialising, no communicating, no exposure to new ideas or new research? Who's against "exposure to new ideas or new research? I welcome new ideas; I just don't believe in them and spread them around if they're not supported. If and when they _do_ become supported then I might accept the "new ideas." Until then, I won't believe simply because someone says it's so. Until then, I'm certainly not going to get up on a soap box and preach
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:22:57 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Nick, >I don't deny that this is an interesting story, but it brings >absolutely no proof that prisoners - deformed or not - would >have been brought from Unit 731 in Manchuria. According to all >established historical sources, they were all killed, just >before the arrival of Soviet troops, because nothing, nobody, >was to fall into their hands. So, the story told by your >insiders is false. Gildas, You are missing the point - we can document that the US had, 10 years after the War - practices in place that would allow them to secretly snatch bodies for human radiation experiments from Formosa. I do not understand why you think that this somehow rules out the possibility of someone doing something similar 10 years before. In reality, this later confirmation suggests strongly that the earlier events could definitely have been undertaken. If bodies could be secretly snatched by the US Military/Government from the Far East for human radiation experiments in 1955, then there is _no_ reason why that same Military/Government could not have secretly snatched bodies for human radiation experiments in the immediate post-War era. You dispute this though because official records confirming this have not surfaced. However, you support the crashed UFO theory...for which official records confirming this have not surfaced. Presumably, then, you support the official story when it suits you and deny the official story when it suits you. Interesting strategy. >You introduce more than once the idea that these deformed beings >were at the origin of the "alien body legends", although they >did not land in the area of Roswell. Correct - as a I point out, it was the sightings of the handicapped bodies that led specifically to the alien reports in later years, because no one could figure out - from their descriptions - what else they could have been. But as I point out in the book on several occasions, all the sources told me that these accounts had got mixed in with the Roswell event, and to the point where today - 60 years on - the collective story and the collective memory incorporates different aspects of different events - and different body descriptions - from broadly the same time frame and broadly similar locations. It doesn't matter that the guys that crashed as part of the key Roswell event were entirely normal because it was the other events with the other bodies that sparked off the general "alien body" accounts in later years. The recovery of small men from the Roswell event only reinforced the idea that unusual "little men" had been recovered from a strange device and the various rumors meshed into the legend we have today. See the Colonel on page 108, last paragraph: "...I can tell you that some of the body descriptions that people have made in connection with Roswell are really of the bodies from the White Sands crash and not the one that came shortly after at the ranch with Brazel. This is not because they are lying but because they believe that [the event] they were involved in was the Roswell story; but really it was just a part of it...all of this has all been rolled into one unholy mess that the UFO people call the Roswell incident." >>If the bodies found near Roswell were not handicapped, weird >looking people, this eliminates an eventual - if improbable - >cause of confusion. The supposition that the people of Roswell, >civilians and military alike, could have perceived them as alien >beings from another planet, becomes even more remote. I just >cannot imagine such an incredible mistake. You think? No disrespect to them, but take a look at the physical appearance of some of the people with the conditions cited in the book. Think of them possibly in a flight suit of some type. Think of them having potentially been in the New Mexico summer sun for a day or two - decomposing - if an experiment went wrong, crashed off course and had to be recovered and it took some time. Think of the damage from impact too. Then think of them seen by people near a weird looking, smashed device. Then think of the fact that there was limited TV back then, no Internet to learn about these various physical conditions. Do you really think that taking all of the above into consideration that alien body rumors would not surface years later? Of course they would! >Another thing is, in your reply, you dropped the question of the >lifting bodies, totally inadequate for such an experiment, and >which were flown decades later, at Edwards AFB. As for aircrafts >derived from Horten projects, they never existed. That's a dead >end. No it isn't. You conclude practically every time by saying that something cannot be if the evidence is not there for it yet. And that is why I am spending every spare minute following further leads to try and get this evidence. But again, there is no evidence of a UFO crash - but that scenario you support. If you are so against the data in my book because there are no offficial records and it doesn't go with the official story, then logically you should apply your same rules to the UFO theory (for which there are no official records and that doesn't go with the official story). But you don't do you? As we say in the UK, you like to have your cake and eat it. >Nick, I don't understand why you insist so much on the so-called >Nazi Flying saucers. They existed only on paper! They have >nothing to do with Roswell, and the wave of 1947. And you know that how? Presumably you _know_ it because - as with much of your argument - no documentation has surfaced yet in that area. But again, that's the same for the UFO angle, which you support. And it is why I continue to search for the documents that will support their existence instead of just loudly proclaiming that they didn't exist. There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I suggest that you do. Quickly. >You book is confusing again, regarding the nuclear side of your >story. Yes it is. Partly due to the fact that there was a certain degree of reluctance on their part to discuss aspects of this (particularly the Colonel); and partly due to the fact that we are dealing with memories from decades ago. The important point is that if they had _all_ remembered _every_ word of _every_ conversation, or _every_ detail of _every_ file I would have been _highly_ suspicious that they had all been carefully directed on what to say. And also, I wanted the reader to understand every nuance, every conversation, every sentence. As I said yesterday, it would have been much easier for me to not include problematic data, but I took the decision to include as much as I could purely so that everyone would have the chance to see it and maybe that will assist in resolving things. But it's quite clear to me that I was working with people recalling events from long ago that they had knowledge of - and that they had their own perspectives on, as a result of having different involvement in the events. For example, the Black Widow saw bodies and was told what had happened and where they were from. Top of page 5, she says that her information came "from working there, from the people I _spoke_ with." Barker and Salter were exposed to files in the 50s on this as a result of plans to create bogus crash stories to feed to the Commies. The Colonel saw other files in 69. I'm sure you have examined people's body language to see if they are lying. I'm in no doubt that from their body languages that they were recalling things from memory - correctly and to the best of their abilities, 30, 40, 50 years on. >Nick, you dropped my finding about Saran being too fragile for >balloons, as shown in the USAF Roswell Report. I didn't "drop" it. As you noted from the book, I stated openly that this was 19 48 not 1947. But the key point and why I cited it is to demonstrate that technol ogy along those lines was being developed in the late 40s. > >Now, about the possible confusion between a balloon and a >mysterious, high performance "flying disk", I will just stick to >my opinion - no way! But Gildas, you are forgetting or ignoring the fact that only a week or so after the Kenneth Arnold sighting, there was _no way_ to know that Saucers _weren't_ made of balloon like material. There was no huge UFO history like we have today for the military to work with back then. It was all brand new. A scenario for you: Imagine if today there was no UFO history, no sightings, nothing at all. No books. Zero. Then imagine if tomorrow "something" strange is seen in the skies of New Mexico and they get called Flying Saucers. Then a week or so later debris is found on the Foster Ranch. Let's say a team from a nearby military base goes out. One of the guys says to another: "I wonder if this could be wreckage form one of those flying saucers that people have been seeing?" His colleague says: "But this looks like balloon debris." Then the first guy says: "Yeah, but we've only had reports for a week. How do we know that Saucers aren't some sort of balloon or made of balloon-like materials?" To me that is a credible scenario given that there was _no_ large scale UFO history for the military to work with so soon after Roswell. And what makes you think the object that came down at Roswell was "high performance"? The scenario I present is one of a glider carried aloft for all intents and purposes as a payload, and then detached to see if that was a viable scenario. As it transpires, it was a complete and utter disaster, and as the sources told me, the whole thing was hastily canceled because it was way too unwieldy and unsafe. Now, the following is a broader question for the List that is not necessarily connected just to my book. And the List will correct me if I am wrong here. But isn't it true that in the _initial_ wave of summer 47 sightings in the US, there was _very_ little talk about Saucers being alien? That being so Gildas in summer 47, the people at the Roswell base would not be interpreting Saucers as high-performance alien craft - but they might be interpreting them as something that utilized conventional technology - such as balloons, maybe...? And on a slightly related matter: have a look at the links below. There is of course (and I want to _specifically_ stress this) _no_ connection between the events at Roswell and the pictures and data at the 4 links below. However, the links _do_ deal with a hybrid type flying device that incorporates a huge Balloon-blimp with other aerial vehicles attached to them, and where there was a fatality too. So - my _only_ point is that there is no doubt that hybrid devices of an unusual nature combining balloons and other aircraft have been tested and have failed with a fatality. The Links: http://www.piasecki.com/_borders/pa-97.1.jpg http://www.piasecki.com/images/helstt.gif
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Seth Shostick & Edward Condon From: Don Ecker <decker0726.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:12:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:36:44 -0400 Subject: Seth Shostick & Edward Condon Greetings List. Several days ago I saw mention of Dr. Seth Shostick on the List with a challenge to Ufologists. Several years ago I had the pleasure of debating Dr. Shostick on a Television program in San Francisco. During our chat Shostick mentioned that Ed Condon "placed the nail" in the UFO debate with his Colorado study. I wrote the following in response to that all the while wondering if Shostick had ever _really_ read the Condon Report. Don Ecker --- Blue Book and Condon by Don Ecker Not long ago I was invited by a friend of mine, who teaches anthropology,to address one of his classes at Occidental College. The subject of course was UFOs, and during the address I mentioned the infamous University of Colorado UFO study headed up by Dr. Edward Condon. With this issue of UFO Magazine addressing the Air Forces's Project Blue Book it seemed time to take another look at Ed Condon's UFO study. It has been 30 years since the University of Colorado's study has been completed and the U.S. Air Force canceled Project Blue Book. While it is true that most people interested in the UFO subject has heard of the Condon Report, most are not aware anymore of the facts behind Ed Condon or the actual conclusions reached, both public and private. The end result was that at the conclusion of the study, the United States Air Force could now legitimately drop its public Project Blue Book. By 1965 the American press and public were giving Air Force "explanations" of UFO sightings a more skeptical eye. There seemed to be a general consensus that the Air Force was practicing a policy of "explaining away at any cost" all UFO sightings. In Dexter and then Hillsdale, Michigan in March of 1965, events were about to reshape the UFO phenomenon for the next 35 years. ThisUFO "flap" resounded throughout the United States. The Air Force sent Dr. J. Allen Hynek to Michigan. Hynek was an astronomer consultant to the Air Forces Project Blue Book. Later Hynek was to say that the Michigan sightings had all the trappings of a Barnum and Baily 3 Ring Circus. He then held a press conference that Hynek later claimed he was ordered to hold. Major Hector Quintanilla, then commanding officer of the Air Force's Project Blue Book, claimed that Hynek had informed him he could explain the situation, and Quintanilla gave permission for the press conference. At any rate Hynek's "possible" explanation of marsh gas or "swamp gas" convulsed the nation into laughter and derision aimed at the Air Force. The upshot was that Michigan Congressional Representative Gerald Ford called for congressional hearings. Ford stated "the American public deserves a better explanation than thus far given by the Air Force."On April 5, 1966 open hearings were held. Afterwards, on May 9, 1966, the Air Force announced that it would contract out a UFO study to be headed up by a scientific team. The search was begun to find a setting for the study. After several attempts to interest various universities failed, the University of Colorado accepted the task. Physicist Dr. Edward U. Condon was asked to accept the job. He was deemed by the Air Force to be "acceptable", neither too far right or far left. Condon had been a target of the House of Un- American Activities and Richard Nixon. He was completely exonerated after a long fight and came out of the ordeal with his personal, political and scientific credentials intact. On the surface, things looked promising for an impartial review of the evidence. NICAP (headed by Major Don Keyhoe) and APRO (headed by Jim and Coral Lorenzen) both welcomed this "first of its kind" scientific study. Both organizations offered to open their files to the Condon Committee. But not all was "impartial" with Condon. In January, 1967 Condon made an address before Corning Section of the American Chemical Society. He was quoted as saying "It is my inclination right now to recommend that the government get out of this business. My attitude right now is that there is nothing to it" but he ended this by smirking "but I am not supposed to come to that conclusion for a year." When word of such statements reached NICAP, Keyhoe expressed concern. Condon was quick to placate Keyhoe by explaining he was quoted out of context. But a larger roadblock lay ahead. One that almost derailed the entire process of the UFO study, and forever laid the seeds that this was just another "Air Force whitewash" and one that was to finally extricate the Air Force from the morass of UFOs. Robert Low was the Assistant Dean of the Graduate School,at the University of Colorado. When the university was considering taking on this study, Low wrote a memo to E. James Archer, dean of the graduate school, and to Thurston E. Manning, vice president and Dean of Faculties, on the pros and cons of the UFO study. "I have pondered the UFO project.... Here are a few thoughts on the subject. Branscom is very much against it.... Gordon Little thinks it would be a diaster.... George Benton, likewise is negative..... In order to undertake such a project, one has to approach it objectively. That is, one has to admit the possibility that such things as UFOs exist. It is not respectable to give serious consideration to such a possibility.... The trick would be, I think, to describe the project so that, to the public, it would appear atotally objective study, but to the scientific community, would present the image of a group of nonbelievers trying their best to be objective but having an almost zero expectation of finding a saucer. One way to do this would be to stress investigation, not of the physical phenomena, rather of the people who do the observing. If the emphasis were put here, rather than on examination of the old question of the physical reality of the saucers, I think the scientific community would quickly get the message." Senior investigator, and physical chemist, Dr. Roy Craig was a member of the Condon project. He found this memo while doing background research. He showed it to other project staff, who then leaked the memo to Keyhoe of NICAP and Dr. James McDonald. McDonald held the position of Senior Physicist, Institute of Atmospheric Physics, at the University of Arizona. He was also anoutspoken critic of the Air Force and Project Blue Book and was outspoken to the point of abrasiveness calling for an objective scientific UFO study. When this scandal broke, Condon and Low fired several staff members and Condon threatened to ruin one professionally and attempted to get anothers security clearance revoked. Then Condon's assistant administrator, Mary Lou Armstrong, resigned. The firestorm broke in the press, author John Fuller wrote about the "$500,000.00 trick" in the mass market magazine LOOK. There were even a few calls for congress to take over the study. However, in 1968 there were other larger fish to fry. The end of January was the start of the "Tet Offensive." While the war raged in Vietnam each night on American television, riots began to rage in the streets with the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King at the beginning of April. Two months later Robert Kennedy was murdered and UFOs seemed far from the mind of the public. But the project proceeded. Robert Low left the project officially on May 24, 1968. It was realized that in view of the "trick memo" if Low had any part of the final report, it would not have any public credibility. Also, by the spring of 1968, the investigative phase of the project was over. Now it was thereport writing time and the final report was handed over to the Air Force on October, 1968 to be reviewed by the National Academy of Sciences. (NAS) It was finally over, or so some thought. When the final study was released to the public, it was close to 1,000 pages. The NAS reviewed this massive document in only 7 weeks, signed off on it claiming that they were "satisfied" with the findings. Had anyone looked, they would have discovered that even so, 30% of the cases examined in the Condon report were still unidentified. Later, Dr. Peter Sturrock wrote a devastating critique of the Condon report titled "An Analysis of the Condon Report on the Colorado UFO Project." Sturrock pointed out in a number of examples, that Condon's conclusions were at odds with the facts. Whether this was due to omission or commission is open to speculation. Sturrock also correctly pointed out that the Condon Report was _not_ a Committee Report, but was a PROJECT Report. The difference is that in a project report there are contributions from the staff, it is the director that gives the overview. In light of the fact that Condon conducted NOT ONE INVESTIGATION, and concerned himself with interviewing the contactee "fringe" element that he then used in amusing anecdotal stories, this is a very important point and the conclusions reached reflect Condon's bias. Condon died in 1974. Today if he is even remembered at all it is for this very flawed UFO study. In light of the contributions he made to the study of physics and to the Manhattan Project during World War II, it is somewhat sad. However there was something else very telling about Ed Condon. After the study was completed he addressed the American Philosophical Society. When asked about UFOs he said "..publishers who publish or teachers who teach any of the pseudo sciences as established truth should, on being found guilty, be publicly horsewhipped, and forever banned from further activity in these usually honorable professions." That in itself speaks volumes for Dr. Edward Condon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Translation Of A Report On Julien/Ederman From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:16:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:42:54 -0400 Subject: Translation Of A Report On Julien/Ederman Google translates pages, so one report is translated at end of this post: >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:51:31 -0700 >Subject: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >Eric Julien/Jean Ederman was reportedly piloting an alien space >ship when he disappeared for awhile (so it is claimed). I was >given these two reports that were based on investigations of >this claim. Unfortunately, they are in French. But, I'm sure >some List members will be able to read them! >Julien/Ederman reportedly was discovered _not_ to be actualizing >his pilot training on an alien ship, but instead had returned to >his old home on French Reunion Island. He reportedly emailed his >girlfriend from there in order to end a police investigation >into his disappearance. >http://www.ovni.ch/guest/mtdb.htm >http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_fr/m_news/imposture.htm End of an imposture by Marie-Ther=E8se de Brosses ---------------------------------------------------------------- Now that message celebrates it "Change the World by action leverage!" allegedly 'received' by a channel was translated into 15 languages and, the helping Web, largely circulated through all planet... it would be perhaps time to make the share of the dream, the phantasm, the plot and... of reality. It is known that supposedly the channel, Jean Ederman, is called actually Eric Julien, the same Eric Julien who largely defrayed the ufologic chronicle affirming that it had been formed by the E.T. to become pilot of flying saucer. The business took another proportion when his/her partner, Eve, did not hesitate to make a deposition with the gendarmerie, informant that on March 22, 2004 Eric Julien had disappeared: it had left the Earth (as that had been announced to him) on board an UFO... Let us say it immediately: the gendarmerie found Eric Julien. This last never left the Earth, is never gotten into an UFO: it simply organized a beautiful setting in scene of disappearance before leaving to hide in the island of the Meeting. Short recall of "the business Eric Julien": In 2002, the Net surfers discover enough a "decoiffant" text of Eric Julien entitled: The Greatest Discovery Of All "Times": Time 3D. At the time, nobody seems to notice that this article largely plunders work of the Russian cosmists (erudite relegated in the goulags and whose work prohibited and was hidden for crime of injure-Marxism) without never mentioning them and on whom certain Russian physicists continue to work. It is necessary here to pay homage in the long searches of Pascuser which showed that the entirety of the information given by Eric Julien is contained in the work completed by the Russian physicists N.A.Kozyrev and Albert Veiniket Vadim Chernobrov and that it is only about one simple plagiarism: "All [ s]es topics: time 3d with variable density, application to the antigravity and displacement in the space of the UFOS by fields of modified time, the quantum theory of conversion of space of time and conversely by the means of Quantas of time, etc are found there, as well as the following applications: telepathy, voyage in time, etc... cf: http://www.onnouscachetout.com/themes/extra/eric-julien.php Various rumours circulate on the account of Eric Julien because the man often appears on the Net. He tells there his life, his various contacts with the UFOS, his lesson given telepathiquement. He publishes there the first pages of a book in preparation: "UFOS, END OF the MYSTERY" that it presents, always modestly like a "repond[ant work ] in a luminous way at all the arguments and the zones of shade which hitherto prevented us from including/understanding the phenomenon UFO." It overflows of ideas of which: -- the Photogravure project, to gather the means necessary to the construction of a prototype of saucer... on a generation, -- the assembly of a supposed tender offer to preserve between its hands the whole of the documents having milked with the ufology, All the elements are joined together to have a presentiment of the assembly of superb swindles. In September 2003, it is "the" text (very succeeded) which was going to make it tower of planet being presented in the form of a message of the E.T. among us and who ask only to appear if we wish it: "CHANGE THE WORLD BY ACTION LEVERAGE". It ends in an astonishing proposal for a referendum: it is enough to vote - telepathiquement - in favour of a massive appearance of extraterrestrial vessels so that those appear. Then in 2004, the business becomes complicated, with the testimony of his/her new Eve partner, diffused on a radio operator FM Frenchwoman, "Radio operator Ici&Maintenant!" (icietmaintenant.com). This radio, directed by Didier de Plaige, devotes each Tuesday starting from 11pm (local time) an emission of several hours on the UFOS. Eve announces to have launched an opinion of research near the National Gendarmerie, with which it explains that his/her companion followed long training courses of drive with the E.T., to become pilot of UFO, and that their friends the E.T. announced to him that he had been selected to become instructor in his turn. She knew that the E.T. were going to remove it: his/her companion had remainder arranged a field to transform it into track of atterrisage for the vessel. The Gendarme charged with the investigation, Mr. Cyril Cheese, receives the deposition without sourciller, specifying however that it would perhaps have some problems with his hierarchy to make accept this scenario. (having made him even an observation, Mr. Fromage is interested particularly in the UFOS) Guest two weeks later by this same radio, Eve Marchal persisted in her novel, although there is the proof that Eric Julien was always on Earth: he had sent an e-mail urging to him to him to make stop seek them ! One wonders well why Eric Julien persisted in using this quite terrestrial mean of communication, since Eve, on "a journey of conscience" thought capable to join it several times per day in her saucer, and that remainder it knew the site of underground and underwater bases E.T.. (The fact remains that simple a courriel conceals many information for which can seek: imprudent the courriel of Eric Julien revealed an address IP reunionnaise) During these emissions, all the poles were tended to Eve so that it ceases these infantile speeches, to which unfortunately much the naive ones continued to cling, to well-known representatives of the world ufologic... The young woman persisted in her account of SF, mixing with it with the spiritualistic elements referring to the Masters of Wisdom, and Agartha, and detailed descriptions of the various forms of E.T with which she says herself in contact: Gray, Reptiliens, Draconniens, Goriens and other Annunakis (like his/her large Lizzia friend: "It and they his measure at least two meters fifty; she has the squat body of a kangaroo, with large legs griffues, and a head of varant." She explains how Eric Julien was trained by the E.T., going on their premises twice per day, for meetings of piloting in cabin of simulation, how he had also undergone "operations on the subtle level for the recognition of the vessel": Operations for its prints of hand and iris... and specifying that: "initially the intention of our friends is to show thousands of vessels. It will be an enormous cultural shock. This positive shock will unbolt consciences... " It is possible to download (in French) free these emission on http://www.nseo.com/message.htm . The investigation of gendarmerie followed its course. Mr. Fromage was made entrust the investigation by his hierarchy and... it found Eric Julien. At our time, it is rather difficult to disappear very continuously to perceive its unemployment pays! Our hero prelasse myself in the beautiful island of the Meeting (Indian Ocean). Its laconic declaration, without justification nor excuses, consisted of only one sentence: "I had hoped that me would never be found". It should be known that Eric Julien is not with his first "disappearance", having left a first wife without news during several months In spite of the evidence more overpowering, some persist in their beliefs. On the Net, they affirm that the gendarmerie found only one clone of E. Julien and that their hero continues, without the knowledge of the debunkers, its mission of pilot of UFO.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Another Jean Ederman Report From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:51:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:46:49 -0400 Subject: Another Jean Ederman Report Reminder: Jean Ederman/Eric Julien is one of three members of the newly created Exopolitics Institute. The following report is from: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/gildas.boisrobert/html/eve2.html Jean Ederman: end of one mystification. Galvanized by the unhoped-for success gained by the message "Change the world by action leverage", which was presented on our site September 2003 then translated into fifteen languages different and diffused throughout the whole world, we were a certain number to believe that Jean Ederman (alias =C9ric Julien) had actually been missionn=E9 by a collective the extraterrestrial ones to prepare our humanity to accomodate the Brothers of Space on the Earth. In March 2004, after the advertisement made by his/her Eve partner of the departure of Jean on board a vessel of space and of its possible mission near a crew arcturien charged to form it with the piloting of the magnetic tracers, we all wanted to believe in it and it is with joy and confidence that we had listened to his first declarations with the Ici radio and Now. Then various testimonys of former close relations of =C9ric Julien came to project a doubt about this beautiful initial enthusiasm. With the passing days and of the weeks, two observations could be made: 1) It was not the first time that =C9ric Julien left one of his partners under rather strange conditions, without giving explanations nor to leave of address (or on the contrary by inventing an explanation and by giving a false address). 2) It was presented by certain its old relations like an intellectually gifted being, equipped with a capacity of seduction and spiritual penetration undeniable, but subjected to recurring mythomaniac impulses. Because of the extraordinary quality of the message "Change the world", we wanted however to continue to believe in the account of Eve, and it is with pleasure that we distributed last month the translation of a Anglo-Saxon drain affirming that Jean was well on board a vessel arcturien (cf our page Jean Ederman and Arcturiens), that after having learned how to control it, it was used to them from now on to test through him the possibilities of the human spirit. Such messages continued besides to circulate on Internet until the beginning of July 2004. Unfortunately, meanwhile, not only the investigation of gendarmerie progressed, but it succeeded. We have the absolute certainty today that Jean Ederman is currently on the island of the Meeting, that while leaving the house of Eve in Berry, it went there directly by plane and never forwarded by an unspecified machine of space. We are pleased to personally know Pierre Antoni, airline pilot in Air-France and friend of Eve. It is a right, just man and whose word cannot be questioned. A few days after the disappearance of Jean Ederman, it went to Eve, and met Cyril Fromage, the sergeant diligent=E9 by the gendarmerie of =C9guzon to carry out a survey into the disappearance of Jean. Cyril Fromage did not undergo any hierarchical, governmental or different pressure. It agreed to simply carry out this survey because after having been the eyewitness, a few years ago, of a passage of UFO of the type cigar, it became itself ufologist. On the basis of information transmitted by =C9guzon, the gendarmes of the Meeting did not have any sorrow to find Jean Ederman, who actually settled on the island where his/her children and their mother live. It made there transfer its unemployment pays. When the gendarmes asked him why it had left Eve as suddenly as surreptitiously, then sending a mall indicating to him that it was on board a vessel of space, it did not wish to answer; it simply declared that it had hoped that it is never found. Then it asked the gendarmes to leave it quiet. And these words - the only ones which it has marked of the remainder - are consigned in writing on the report/ratio of gendarmerie. Eric Julien: an atypical character with the multiple facets: - Above: in 1999, at the time of the creation of Tchendukua association devoted to the ground repurchase in Colombia to restore them with the Koguis Indians. - Below: in 2003, =C9ric Julien became Jean Ederman and dream to create a world base of data where would be centralized and indexed the documents, testimonys, studies, research and work of the whole world on the UFOS and their modes of propulsion. It transmits on Internet the splendid message "Change the world" into September 2003, announces at which wants to hear well it that it can from now on constantly to join those which it names "Mouniens" on board a vessel of space, then disappears abruptly from the residence of his/her partner on March 12, 2004. What one can thus from now on affirm, it is that there was cheating on behalf of Jean Ederman well, but not handling nor plot sectarian, as some affirmed a little quickly... It is probable that while acting of the kind, it sought before very putting an end good manners to a relation which it was not able any more to assume, and which it never had the intention to leave one fine day its retirement to affirm with the face of the world which he returned from a vessel of space. Besides the jokes of =C9ric Julien do not remove anything with quality marvellous message "Change the world", and nothing to date prohibits to suppose that it in spite of very could be inspired by very beautiful =CAtre come from an immaterial sphere to inform humanity what soon could do without if we finally decide to use our free-referee to ask for the assistance of our Brothers of Space. Isn't it said that the ways of the Sky are impenetrable? If =C9ric Julien were selected for the transmission of this message, there are obviously many reasons, even if the majority still escape to us. In spite of the a little sordid relents of certain asides of this history, this message seems to us to remain more than ever of a vibrating topicality. And we can only encourage our readers to read again it, to think of it and to learn the lessons from them. Moreover, if it from now on is proven that Jean went never physically inside a galactic vessel, anything does not prohibit to suppose that during his dreams and of its projections of conscience, it was not given to him - perhaps even besides several times! - to meet a crew of Brothers and Sisters of Space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:48:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - White >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT >Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars <snip> >Jul 18 2005 >Scientists believe humans may have put life on Mars. >The US space agency NASA believe two space craft that landed on >the planet last year may have carried bacteria from Earth. What a _beautiful_ cover story to make sure the public ignores any future convincing evidence life was, indeed, _found_ on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:49:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of >>new recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a >>tragedy for Ufology? >If the whole point is determining the truth about UFOs (and >propagating it) based on proper and/or scientific >investigation and reseach, i.e. finding and spreading the >truth based on the evidence... Yes! And tomorrow you'll annexe Austria and on Thursday invade Poland. You're not a Ufologist, you're a fascist. While passion and a firm belief are commendable qualities, you take yours to a point where you make me feel decidely uncomfortable. I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your "correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 18 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:30:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:51:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >What is needed is a good peer review paper/website of aerial >phenomena research. And good aerial phenomena field research >stations with equipment actually gathering data (!!!). Sure would be nice if that CUFOS in-home environment monitoring experiment, in the homes of active abductees,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:56:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:25:58 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >You introduce more than once the idea that these deformed beings >were at the origin of the "alien body legends", although they >did not land in the area of Roswell. Gildas, I replied earlier to your previous post re the fact that - in the scenario given to me - some of the bodies displayed evidence of severe physical handicaps at certain crash sites, and some, at distinctly _different_ crash sites, were broadly normal looking people from the Far East. There is evidence for this. If you look at the story of Grady "Barney" Barnett (if you accept that as genuine, of course), you have reports of small people with "oddly spaced eyes" and skinny arms and legs. They looked very unusual and were found on the Plains of San Augustin. But look at the testimony provided by Jean Pierre Pharabod to the list on 23 June: "Hello, I already suspected such an explanation when I read, in Timothy Good's, Alien Liaison, (1991), the testimony of Sergeant Melvin E. Brown, who was at Roswell in July 1947, as reported by one of his daughters (pages 86-87): 'He told us they were nothing to be scared of. They were friendly-looking and had nice faces. They looked Asian, he said, but had larger heads and no hair. They looked a yellowy color. He was frightened a bit, because he knew he shouldn't be doing it, so he only had a quick glimpse. But he said they could have passed for Chinese - they had slanted eyes.' 'looked Asian', 'yellowy color (not gray !), 'could have passed for Chinese', 'slanted eyes'..... Does Nick Redfern know of this testimony? If not, this information could help him. Best Regards, Jean-Pierre Pharabod." Now, although this witness talked about the bodies having larger heads too, the important point is this: We have Barnett talking about _extremely_ unusual looking bodies at one crash site on the Plains of San Augustin; and we have Good's source talking about bodies that broadly "could have passed for Chinese" at another crash site closer to Roswell In other words - as my sources said - at some crash sites were broadly normal looking people from the Far East, and at other sites there were severely handicapped people. I would suggest that from the above, Barnett saw bodies from one of the flights involving handicapped people, and Good's source saw more normal looking people (aside from the larger head, which indicates some potential handicap), from another event. But the important point is that this suggests 2 different types of bodies - severely handicapped at one site, more human-looking Oriental types at another. Exactly as per the book.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:19:12 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:30:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Ledger >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT >Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars >NASA: Life On Mars! aka We Screwed Up! >----- >Source: The Scottish Daily Record - Glasgow >Jul 18 2005 >http://tinyurl.com/9oy7j >Martian Mix-Up >Jul 18 2005 >Scientists believe humans may have put life on Mars. >The US space agency NASA believe two space craft that landed on >the planet last year may have carried bacteria from Earth. >The vehicles were designed to find existing signs of life. >But after finding traces of bacteria in a chamber used to test >the craft, NASA now think microbes survived the journey to Mars Turn about is fair play, Greg. First, maybe the bacteria is going back to where it came from, just to be cheeky. Also, this could comlicate the quest for life on Mars. mark my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:26:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Maccabee >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:08:28 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:23:08 +0200 >>Subject: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >3. We also know from earlier in this post that Colonel Gasser - >the "principle army technician at the Nuclear Energy for the >Propulsion of Aircraft Research Center at Oak Ridge" - >apparently knew about research into Saucers by the US pre-1949 >and had suggested that Saucers worked upon atomic principles. >4. So, we have La Paz + Japanese Balloons. We have the AFSWP + >Body Snatching + Specimens + a hospital in Formosa + human >radiation experiments. And we have NEPA/Gasser + US experiments >to build Saucers + atomic energy systems. >5. Interestingly, La Paz; the AFSWP and NEPA all surface - and >all 3 together, I might add - in the Project Twinkle and Green >Fireball controversy of the late 1940s, much of which was >focused upon New Mexico. I have documents that have all 3 on the >distribution list for documents, references to all 3 sitting in >on meetings, etc. >6. So, we have a Japanese Balloon expert; the AFSWP later >involved in snatching bodies from a Formosa Hospital for use in >human radiation tests; and NEPA experts; all sitting in on >meetings and discussing unusual aerial activity in - of all >places - New Mexico in the late 1940s. Col. Gasser referred to the saucers as missiles and said the following about them in the Gasser document as presented in The UFO-FBI Connection: Of particular interest is the fact that Col. Gasser told the FBI that the presence of these "missiles" (saucers) had "given impetus to the research being done by the air force in their own program of nuclear energy for the propulsion of aircraft to develop guided missiles." (Note: The NEPA project at Oak Ridge had started in 1946. In 1948 the secret Lexington Project of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reviewed the NEPA research and concluded that, although there was no guarantee of success, with "adequate resources and competent manpower" it might be possible to construct a nuclear powered aircraft. The time scale for development was estimated at fifteen years.) Col. Gasser also told the FBI that "great efforts have been expended by the service to determine just what the nature of these missile might be and.... to decide whether or not an adequate defense can be established." Note the claim that the sightings of saucer "missiles" had given an impetus to our program to develop atomic powered aircraft and that such a development might be possible with sufficient expense of materials and effort in,maybe, 15 years. Gasser also pointed out that there were sightings in which the saucer seemed to return toward its origin. He interpreted this as Soviet missiles that were able to fly to a point in the USA and then return to the USSR. He then pointed out that we had not attempted to develop a missile that could make a round trip. It is amusing to note that, whereas Gasser made it clear that the AF took saucer sightings seriously and considered the Soviet
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:35:03 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:38:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of >>>new recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a >>>tragedy for Ufology? >>If the whole point is determining the truth about UFOs (and >>propagating it) based on proper and/or scientific >>investigation and reseach, i.e. finding and spreading the >>truth based on the evidence... Yes! >And tomorrow you'll annexe Austria and on Thursday invade >Poland. >You're not a Ufologist, you're a fascist. While passion and a >firm belief are commendable qualities, you take yours to a point >where you make me feel decidely uncomfortable. >I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely >not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your >"correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that >would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s >German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out. >As far as I'm concerned, I think I have said enough on this >subject for me to feel comfortable leaving it here. Stuart, This one really breaks it for me. All I can conclude is that (tit for tat) you are a total idiot and calling Eugene 'dogmatic' and 'fascist' evokes gales of laughter from me. You seem to think that any wild, off-the-wall claim is equally worth consideration with well-established, factual, documented evidence. If we can't 'disprove' something somebody says that you happen to agree with (no matter how wild-eyed and lacking in evidence), then we are being "dogmatic", 'telling people what to think,' etc. I can clearly see that you don't have a clue about logic, scientific method, or rational discourse. Therefore I have no further interest in anything you have to say, and I applaud Eugene and others on the List who obviously think much more clearly and fairly and logically than you do and are trying (against all odds) to offset the cancer that has invaded
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Filer's Files #28 - 2005 - Christol From: Michael Christol <spachopr.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:37:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:43:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #28 - 2005 - Christol >From: George A. File <Majorstar.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 08:34:23 -0400 >Subject: Filer's Files #28 - 2005 >Filer=92s Files #28 -- 2005, >Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern >Vice President of Skywatch International July 6, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com <snip> >The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO >eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis >around the world and in space. Many people claim it is >impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an >open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These >Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life >not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one >hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. <snip> Greeting All: Just my luck..... I travel from Kentucky through Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Kansas, Colorado and back, a total of over 2600 + miles in 8 days, and I don't see a darn thing. They were everywhere I wasn't. So my fortune for finding the UFOs goes... "If wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all." Just another disappointment in my 38 year search for UFOs. When will I learn... no wonder I retired from research back in 2000.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:51:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:46:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely >not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your >"correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that >would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s >German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out. Thank you! I'm glad you consider me a danger to your version of Ufology. That means I must be doing something right. Well, if you feel comfortable letting it go then so do I. Let's! The whole purpose of my initial post was to voice concerns over the agenda of the upcoming Toronto symposium. Enough has been said from people on both sides of the fence to allow anyone who may be on this List and unsure about such subjects as 'exoplotics' to make up their minds as to whether it's something they like or don't like. Your side isn't going to convince my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 UFO Group To Probe Beauty Point Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:49:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:49:40 -0400 Subject: UFO Group To Probe Beauty Point Sighting Source: ABC NewsOnLine - Australia http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1417311.htm July 19, 2005 UFO Group To Probe Beauty Point Sighting The Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre is looking into a sighting over Beauty Point in the north of the state last night. Resident Bob Silberberg says he saw a large, bright, round ball of light travelling reasonably fast in a north-westerly direction. Keith Roberts from the UFO Investigation Centre in Tasmania says there was another sighting in the area last month.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:31:16 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:54:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:51:31 -0700 >Subject: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >Eric Julien/Jean Ederman was reportedly piloting an alien space >ship when he disappeared for awhile (so it is claimed). I was >given these two reports that were based on investigations of >this claim. Unfortunately, they are in French. But, I'm sure >some list members will be able to read them! >Julien/Ederman reportedly was discovered NOT to be actualizing >his pilot training on an alien ship, but instead had returned to >his old home on French Reunion Island. He reportedly emailed his >girlfriend from there in order to end a police investigation >into his disappearance. >http://www.ovni.ch/guest/mtdb.htm >http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_fr/m_news/imposture.htm Aloha Mike Thanks for giving Eric Julien (aka Jean Ederman) the opportunity to respond to the two reports circulated on the forum which are critical of various aspects of his claimed extraterrestrial experiences. I sent your post to him and include his response below. Let me add that Eric Julien has written a very detailed book explaining the scientific basis of the extraterrestrial technologies he claims to have learned about through his various experiences. A number of promient French researchers/scientists have reviewed his book and thought very highly of it, and concluded that it is not a plagiarised work which was one of the intitial criticisms leveled against him. I have read one of these critiques and it is clear that the author who was initially very sceptical was impressed by Eric's work. I think that an objective standard for assessing Eric's claims of direct experience with extraterrestrial technologies is to analyse the written material and detailed diagrams he has provided of these. I think that those interested in Eric's claims regarding the "Science of Extraterrestrials" can begin by reading his book in the original French (an English translation is underway); or by reading some of his shorter articles and the reviews of this book (some translated into English) which are available at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute- EricJulien-home.htm . I would recommend to you that you read his work or objective reviews of it, and reach your own independent assessment of the value of Eric's work rather than point to second hand sources that appear prejudiced for reasons that Eric describes in his response. In peace, Michael Salla ----- Eric Julien's Response: The two links given by Mike Jamieson is the same article written by the French journalist Marie-Therese de Brosses in July 2004. This journalist used to write articles in a "people magazine" she dares to qualify serious. She has written a book on abductees in 1995 and claimed she had investigated in being in touch with these abductees. Her article about me has been published on different websites in France. In reality, in my case, she has never made any serious investigation, except from her seat. I have written an article of 50 pages in November 2004 to denounce the accusation of plagiarism of Russian scientists from a mathematics Professor, and to prove the opposite. Many webmasters have put off the journalist article, except four of them (including the two links). The serious ufologists have understood that my demonstration was pretty formal. Three months later, my critics has recognized publicly his error after having read my book, "the science of extraterrestrials" (being translated in English, and already published in French). We have had, Marie-Therese de Brosses and me, different private email exchanges. In March 2005, and after a long period of silence from me, she had firstly accepted to change her article regarding the accusation of plagiarism of my scientific concepts coming from my ET contacts once this accusation was denied by the Professor she has referred to. She has never publicly recognized her mistake. Why ? The second part of her article speaks about my disappearance in March 2004. She refers to the police investigator who has "discovered" me on the Reunion Island two months later. You have to know that many information were unknown or avoided by the journalist: 1 - The visit card of the official investigator (policeman) precise: "specialist in: ufology, occult science, amazing monsters & paranormal phenomena"! (I have his card). 2 - he wanted to be married with my girlfriend during my disappearance (I have got written evidences of his attempts). She obvioulsy refused. 3 - he has alerted the police headquarter about my disappearance, but nobody went to the close encounter place...except a military division two days after my disappearance (I have a testimony of this). 4 - I have met several times policemen on the Reunion Island before the investigation itself without having any relation with their "questions" regarding an other person. 5 - A military helicopter has overflown my house on the Reunion Island less than 30 meters above, and then has made a 360=B0 turn over a future UFO landing area indicated in my computer files. This helicopter came from a military ship. It never comes (or very rarely) in Reunion Island. 6 - My Close Encounter (CE4) in the night of my disappearance has lasted about three hours in physical time, but many days in higher time density. That is probably why channelers have received information speaking about a long experience. In addition, other experiences on the Reunion Island have occured after this night. As author about abductions, Marie-Therese de Brosses is supposed to know the existence of the "missing time", except in her "investigation". 7 - Piloting a space-time craft is not so rare. Most of the human pilots are children. Their testimonies couldn't be taken seriously. 8 - I have had largely the time to take a plane after this experience (CE4) and to stay on the island. 9 - Marie-Therese de Brosses never speaks about my professionnal experience in her article (fighter pilot trainee, military air traffic controler, executive pilot on jets, station manager for an airliner, airport manager on international airports). 10 - I have never declared that "I wanted not to be discovered for ever" as she claimed in the article. I was already writing my book to return to the public arena. 11 - I have asked my girlfriend after my experience and my travel to the Reunion Island not to go on with the police investigation due to the trap that I knew she will be the victim on the radio station. Marie-Therese de Brosses ignored that we, my girlfriend and me, have had a previous close encounter (CE4) experience in september 2003, six month before, in the SAME UFO landing area, close to the house. That is why, she believed me when I sent her my message! 12 - It is clear that Marie-Therese de Brosses has used well known journalistic techniques to ridiculize a whole situation which was complex for many people. Her disinformation act is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:43:33 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:56:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Boone >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0600 >Subject: Ufology's Internal War >Greetings to the Listarians, >It has become apparent that an internal war has begun regarding >the state of modern Ufology. Nothing really new, but the players >are changing so rapidly, that common sense seems to have become >a casualty. <snip> Wendy Connors you always brighten up my day! You exemplify another reason why I risk my neck to study Ufology. I have met some awesome people on both sides of the fence. As to this 'war', it's standard that there are going to be arguments and laxes of common sense and other difficulties yet overall I would say all of you should be proud of yourselves. I say this because America was born out of people who got tired of being lied to and ripped off and treated like chattle. Those folks stood up and made changes. Nowadays we're facing the same monsters in different guises. In Ufology you have to be on your toes all the time. You have to put aside your own bigotries and predjudices and definitely fears or you end up stuck in the mire. Only the brave can survive Ufology and that's the least of it. For my money, if you're in Ufology and you're still going at it I tip my hat to you. No other field of study is ridiculed, shunned, harrassed or as invalidating as Ufology. We who study either survive or fall but what drives us is what defines us. Those of us who do this to help humanity are the cream of any crop. Whether Ufology or any other battle, people like that are what raise us above the bar. The bravest, most courageous people I've ever met are Ufologists and witnesses and victims. Many are lifelong heroes and heroines of mine. I may not believe or agree with them all but the fact that they stand up and hold their ground is an inspiration. This field of research is the most frustrating. Two figures from Greek mythology and history come to mind all the time. Sysiphus who was cursed to try to escape Hades by rolling a boulder to the top of a hill only to have it roll back down every time is one. Diogynes who it is said wandered the city by day with a lantern searching for an honest man. Humorous references yes but applicable. Not to forget Jason and the Argo voyages. Always some strange force tossing things in our way to challenge us. All in all, after over 50 years of this field being active, astounding feats have been achieved by researchers. New inroads to science and the arts, new breakthroughs in government disclosures, edge of the seat stories that fire the imagination. That's just the tip of the iceberg. One day, maybe today, tomorrow, or a hundred tomorrows you'll all be vindicated and if you're still around you'll be there for the celebration. If not, your kids or grandkids and future generations will look back and say how thankful they are that they had you to look out for them. Unfortunately far too many times those that walk the walk don't get recognized or duly compensated or rewarded for their sacrifices but we know whom they are and as any one of us may one day at any moment make that big break I know that the unsung will have their day. We've all foibles but we can keep one another in check without the hostilities. We only have us to depend on. War there is but we have to realize that often like in the great cartoon Pogo by Walt Kelly that the enemy may be us.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board From: Wendelle Stevens <S18195A.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:54:47 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:01:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:26:41 -1000 >Subject: Re: Introducing An Exopolitics Institute Board Member Dear Michael: Please e-Mail me your postal address so that I can send you my biographical information and photos as you have requested. I habe them on a mini-CD.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:02:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:21:44 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Maccabee >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>Nick, I don't understand why you insist so much on the so-called >>Nazi Flying saucers. They existed only on paper! They have >>nothing to do with Roswell, and the wave of 1947. >And you know that how? Presumably you _know_ it because - as >with much of your argument - no documentation has surfaced yet >in that area. But again, that's the same for the UFO angle, >which you support. And it is why I continue to search for the >documents that will support their existence instead of just >loudly proclaiming that they didn't exist. >There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a >look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with >drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I >suggest that you do. Quickly. This argument in favor of th Nazi/Horton theory only makes sense if one accepts the Arnold report as factual and therefore possible evidence of Horton type craft. However, if you accept the Arnold case and compare the shapes of objects with the Horton "disc" shape, then you also have to accept Arnold's description of the high speed. He publicized a number like 1200 mph, but the actual speed was closer to 1700 mph based on his measurement of the time to go from Mat. Rainier to Adams. Only jet aircraft could attain such speeds, but there were no jet aircraft capable of that speed at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 The Two Groups From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:43:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:23:25 -0400 Subject: The Two Groups Group A wants to observe from a distance, measure, analyze, deduce. Group A puts stock in documents, photographs, radar, recorded testimony. Group A posits an ever receding future in which the truth may eventually become known through ever greater degrees of scientific asceticism. Group B wants to know face to face, experience deeply, transform. Group B puts stock in direct experience, contact, transcendence. Group B believes it is all happening now, and it is time to dive into the depths. Group A thinks Group B is batty. Group B thinks Group A is fearful and narrow-minded. Yet another manifestation of the Apollo/Dionysus archetypal dichotomy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:26:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 > >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>If we applied your standards here Josh, then no UFO >>>conference would ever take place anywhere in the world. >>And exactly why would that be a bad thing? >Two responses for you John. The first is my personal reaction. >The second is more in keeping with what you'd like to hear. >Response 1 >Coming from someone who organises mothly pub meetings to discuss >the other side of the coin, that's a bit rich. Hmmm. 'Organises' is a bit strong. I simply announce that I will be in a particular pub at a particular time (The Railway, Putney, SW London, at about 19:30hrs on the first Sunday of each month, if anyone's interested) and if people would like to come along for a drink and a chat, they are welcome. Amazingly, some do, >You're right John. There should be no interaction, no >socialising, no communicating, no exposure to new ideas or new >research. Ufolgists should remain in their homes, isolated from >everything else, just err working? The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. I have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine research at any of them. This sort of communication is generally more effective through publication in magazines and journals and nowadays through the Internet. Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like Dr Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can suspend their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts of weird and exotic excitements before returning to their dull, everyday lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just don't pretend there's anything particularly serious or scientific about them. They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. >Response 2 >You're quite right John. Then the snake oil salesmen and >assorted con artists would be deprived of earning a living and >taking money off the poor, gullible public. So, when are you >going to stop publishing Magonia then?. Sorry. That last remark >should have gone in the first reply. I think the only person who seems to make a living (however meagre) out of UFO conferences is Stanton Friedman. I think you owe him an apology!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:02:37 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:27:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Boone >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT >>Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars ><snip> >>Jul 18 2005 >>Scientists believe humans may have put life on Mars. >>The US space agency NASA believe two space craft that >>landed on >>the planet last year may have carried bacteria from Earth. >>What a _beautiful_ cover story to make sure the public >>ignores >>any future convincing evidence life was, indeed, _found_ on >>Mars! >>Eleanor White <ROFL!> Love ya Eleanor White! You jumped on that fast! I think the rest of the world's press caught on too as it's not the top headline. Do you think everyone in the world has finally caught on to what you knew all along? :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:14:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:30:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 ><snip> >>What is needed is a good peer review paper/website of aerial >>phenomena research. And good aerial phenomena field research >>stations with equipment actually gathering data (!!!). >Sure would be nice if that CUFOS in-home environment >monitoring experiment, in the homes of active abductees, >were published! Several months ago they told me they >were "having difficulty" analyzing the data. Hi Eleanor, Be patient, we've waited this long. Certainly whatever time they may need to complete their analysis should be granted. It never pays to 'rush' anything. There are some good people involved in conducting this study. Let's allow them to go through their paces. I'd like to offer James Smith the names of a few authors, books and articles on abduction for him to look into. His ignorance of the abduction phenomenon is deep. Perhaps actually knowing what he's talking about has a low priority for him. But then, Mr. Smith has his mind made up about so very many things. ;) The order I list these in has no significance. They are all equally important as open-minded, scholarly works on the subject of UFO abduction. Thomas Eddie Bullard : 1. "UFO Abductions--The Measure of a Mystery" (1987) 2. "The Sympathetic Ear", Fund for UFO Research (1995) 3. "UFOs and Abductions", University Press of Kansas (2000) C.D.B. Bryan: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind: Alien Abduction, UFOs, and the Conference at M.I.T. Stuart Appelle: I highly recommend reading _any_ of the many titles/contributions he has made re: abduction. His work and commentary on this subject has appeared in publications of the American Psychological Association, the University Press of Kansas, and the internationally recognized journal, Science. Stuart is the editor of Journal of UFO Studies, a professor of psychology and associate dean, School of Letters Sciences, State University of New York, College at Brockport. A lot of his material is available at the CUFOS website. And last, but certainly not least, by all means read David Jacobs' book, 'Secret Lives.' Don't pass by anything you may encounter from either Michael Swords, Dr. John Mack, Mark Rodighier of CUFOS or *Bill Chalker (*Australian abduction case that involves DNA evidence!) And please, in future, do a 'little' homework on abduction _before_ you 'sound off' about it. You should be embarrassed to reveal such ignorance (in public or privately) of a subject you have so much to say about. I detect a pattern with you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:59:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:34:38 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Goldstein >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>Another thing is, in your reply, you dropped the question of the >>lifting bodies, totally inadequate for such an experiment, and >>which were flown decades later, at Edwards AFB. As for aircrafts >>derived from Horten projects, they never existed. That's a dead >>end. >>Nick, I don't understand why you insist so much on the so-called >>Nazi Flying saucers. They existed only on paper! They have >>nothing to do with Roswell, and the wave of 1947. >And you know that how? Presumably you _know_ it because - as >with much of your argument - no documentation has surfaced yet >in that area. But again, that's the same for the UFO angle, >which you support. And it is why I continue to search for the >documents that will support their existence instead of just >loudly proclaiming that they didn't exist. >There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a >look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with >drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I >suggest that you do. Quickly. >>You book is confusing again, regarding the nuclear side of your >>story. >Yes it is. Partly due to the fact that there was a certain >degree of reluctance on their part to discuss aspects of this >(particularly the Colonel); and partly due to the fact that we >are dealing with memories from decades ago. <snip> Nick, In your theory of Horten developments, alleged Nazi saucers, postwar aircraft, nuclear experiments, and balloons could you have made a critical error in failing to consult with the experts at the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum and the experts at the United States Air Force Museum? If you did not consult with them and reviewed their voluminous archives I think that was a major flaw in researching your theories.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:22:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:36:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Dickenson >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT >>Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars ><snip> >What a _beautiful_ cover story to make sure the public ignores >any future convincing evidence life was, indeed, _found_ on >Mars! Right Eleanor, And it's possibly worse than that. Seeing the changing stories from NASA, who, as Carl Sagan knew, essentially had the real info re Mars' surface conditions for about twenty years, there's a suspicion that NASA's misdirection of the Planetary Protection Committee - see: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/dec/m23-018.shtml was part of long-term propaganda to "justify" eventual sterilization of all life on Mars. I'm not sure that some of Fort Detrick's products haven't been dropped on Mars already. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:18:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:30:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >>What is needed is a good peer review paper/website of aerial >>phenomena research. And good aerial phenomena field research >>stations with equipment actually gathering data (!!!). >Sure would be nice if that CUFOS in-home environment >monitoring experiment, in the homes of active abductees, >were published! Several months ago they told me they >were "having difficulty" analyzing the data. Yes, that would be great. Another thing, it would be nice to finally get Ray Stanford's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:45:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:38:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of >>>new recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a >>>tragedy for Ufology? >>If the whole point is determining the truth about UFOs (and >>propagating it) based on proper and/or scientific >>investigation and reseach, i.e. finding and spreading the >>truth based on the evidence... Yes! >And tomorrow you'll annexe Austria and on Thursday invade >Poland. >You're not a Ufologist, you're a fascist. While passion and a >firm belief are commendable qualities, you take yours to a point >where you make me feel decidely uncomfortable. >I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely >not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your >"correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that >would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s >German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out. >As far as I'm concerned, I think I have said enough on this >subject for me to feel comfortable leaving it here. Too bad. And I thought you had some potential since you seemingly approve of Kyle King's NEOlogy concept of getting some instrumented data on UFOs and other things. When a person starts calling another facist, then you are right to stop posting to a thread. Of course, maybe, for politeness, you should have stopped prior to the message. Mr. Frison has an excellent viewpoint. Exopolitics and channeling and telepaths are all very entertaining and I am sure Michael Jackson would invest some serious money to helping those causes, but there are a few of us out there who would like to base our proof of existence of UFOs as non-prosaic objects on real evidence. Anything else makes the field a mess. You unfortunately are kind of "creepy" in your belief that "anything goes" when it comes to UFOs, the weirder the better. This is more of a message for failure than anything. Why come up with bizarre explanations/associations to address the UFO phenomenon if they can never be proven? Why waste time with "secret" or "hidden" government knowledge if we can never be sure if it isn't dis- or mis- information or merely incomplete enough to be eternally irresolvable? Why waste time with telepaths or channelers who can't prove THAT phenomena let alone UFOs? A MUCH better use of time at a UFO conference is HARD evidence
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:09:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:40:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:51:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely >>not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your >>"correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that >>would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s >>German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out. >Thank you! I'm glad you consider me a danger to your version of >Ufology. That means I must be doing something right. >Well, if you feel comfortable letting it go then so do I. Let's! >The whole purpose of my initial post was to voice concerns over >the agenda of the upcoming Toronto symposium. Enough has been >said from people on both sides of the fence to allow anyone who >may be on this List and unsure about such subjects as >'exoplotics' to make up their minds as to whether it's something >they like or don't like. Your side isn't going to convince my >side, and my side isn't going to convince your side - so why >keep arguing around and around the same circle? How is it you guys know what the agenda is for the Toronto
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:29:09 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:49:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:00 -0700 >Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:14:45 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Nick and All, >>I don't think you >>really answer the series of questions of Bob Durant. Especially >>on the records of such experiments in White Sands. You don't >>have any. You don't have any record either on alleged secret >>planes,or "lifting bodies" derived from Hortens projects. >Gildas >No I don't have records, but I do have testimony of people >whose credentials (military records, tax records, and >photographs at their places of employment in the right time >frame check out with 100 per cent certainty). Nick,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:54:22 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:12:52 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>I don't deny that this is an interesting story, but it brings >>absolutely no proof that prisoners - deformed or not - would >>have been brought from Unit 731 in Manchuria. According to all >>established historical sources, they were all killed, just >>before the arrival of Soviet troops, because nothing, nobody, >>was to fall into their hands. So, the story told by your >>insiders is false. >You are missing the point - we can document that the US had, 10 >years after the War - practices in place that would allow them >to secretly snatch bodies for human radiation experiments from >Formosa. I do not understand why you think that this somehow >rules out the possibility of someone doing something similar 10 >years before. Nick, I just said why: all prisoners of Unit 731 were killed! BTW, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria was fast, with a huge army (5,000 tanks, etc.). War was declared on August 8, and Japan surrendered on August 20, with 80,000 soldiers killed and 595,000 made prisoners, according to history books. No time for US soldiers to come around and "snatch" handicapped prisoners at Unit 731. >You dispute this though because official records confirming this >have not surfaced. However, you support the crashed UFO >theory...for which official records confirming this have not >surfaced. >Presumably, then, you support the official story when it suits >you and deny the official story when it suits you. Interesting >strategy. I have no such "strategy". What is the situation? First, the main parts of your story have no basis in facts: no Japanese prisoners, normal or handicapped, no "horrible" experiments in White Sands, No Horten-like crafts, no huge Fugo balloons, nothing, really. Another angle of the question is: why would the Roswell base have issued the famous press release if they had only found a crashed aircraft with dead Japanese? The obvious answer is: they did not. >>If the bodies found near Roswell were not handicapped, weird >>looking people, this eliminates an eventual - if improbable - >>cause of confusion. The supposition that the people of Roswell, >>civilians and military alike, could have perceived them as alien >>beings from another planet, becomes even more remote. I just >>cannot imagine such an incredible mistake. >You think? No disrespect to them, but take a look at the >physical appearance of some of the people with the conditions >cited in the book. Japanese crewmen, even badly injured in a crash, even partly decomposed in the sun, would have still looked human. But, there is no point in discussing that, since there were no Japanese prisoners at all. >If you are so against the data in my book because there are no >offficial records and it doesn't go with the official story, >then logically you should apply your same rules to the UFO >theory (for which there are no official records and that doesn't >go with the official story). But you don't do you? As we say in >the UK, you like to have your cake and eat it. The question of the UFO is completely different. In that case, there are dozens of well identified, credible witnesses. There is the press release of Roswell, followed by balloon tales and abundant evidence of a tight cover-up, to this day. >There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a >look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with >drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I >suggest that you do. Quickly. No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an established fact. On the other hand, yes, there is a resemblance between some UFO sightings - Arnold, Phoenix photograph - and descriptions of the Roswell craft by witnesses (Rickett, Gonzales and others) >A scenario for you: Imagine if today there was no UFO history, >no sightings, nothing at all. No books. Zero. >Then imagine if tomorrow "something" strange is seen in the >skies of New Mexico and they get called Flying Saucers. >Then a week or so later debris is found on the Foster Ranch. >Let's say a team from a nearby military base goes out. >One of the guys says to another: "I wonder if this could be >wreckage form one of those flying saucers that people have been >seeing?" >His colleague says: "But this looks like balloon debris." >Then the first guy says: "Yeah, but we've only had reports for a >week. How do we know that Saucers aren't some sort of balloon or >made of balloon-like materials?" Here is my scenario. Let's imagine Laurel and Hardy finding a balloon wreckage. Laurel might say: "Oh! Is it one of these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:57:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad >way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I >suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. I >have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine research >at any of them. This sort of communication is generally more >effective through publication in magazines and journals and >nowadays through the Internet. >Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise >that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like Dr >Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can suspend >their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts of weird >and exotic excitements before returning to their dull, everyday >lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just don't pretend >there's anything particularly serious or scientific about them. >They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but >ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. I am inclined to agree with the above, with one qualification. Basically, John is expressing a conclusion much like my own. I attended my first UFO conference, a MUFON convention, in Iowa in 1975. It was thrilling because I got to meet all sorts of people, including heroes (e.g., Ted Bloecher), heretofore only correspondents and names. I became a regular for a number of years before deciding that aside from socializing with some like-minded colleagues (and trying to stay out of the way of the usual nuts and bores), the exercise was a waste of time and money. Today, I attend conferences only if I am asked to speak and my expenses are covered, and even that has been a while. I guess by now I have a reputation for being unsocialized. On the other hand, there is the occasional small, invitation- only conference, focused on serious research issues and individuals of proved accomplishment, analytical ability, and critical acuity. Over the years I have participated in several of them and found them intellectually stimulating and informative. They have little in common, however, with the standard anything-and-everything-goes UFO confab. Mostly, I've found that the most memorable and entertaining conversations at your standard confab happen in the bar. It is a great bother and expense, however, to travel all that way for a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:00:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:54:14 -0400 Subject: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org There's a recent article by one Bruce Bower at the hijacked mainstream's 'science'-shill 'ScienceSnooze.org' site. It raises, yet again, that tired old fable of "Sleep Paralysis" as the bee's knees explanation for an abduction phenomenon steadfastly refusing to go away, still... hence Bower's re- raising of the tedious "Sleep Paralysis" canard, at all... it would seem. http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp Slickly appointed, and well larded with seemingly bulletproof citations from ostensibly conclusive references, the smothering cowl of insipient sentience and insentient 'science' is dragged over our lay sensibilities once again. Do these canted trolls _never_ tire, reader? And the ready answer is: No. They can't tire... they can't afford to! Why? Because they live an uneasy hell of having to be right _every_ single time, even if they have to dissemble, obfuscate, and mislead to do so. Alien Abduction proponents only have to be right once, remember... and it seems likely, to this writer, that they have been right... already... many, many times. Bower ponderously effects to sow that obligatory seed of doubt, yet again. In his aforementioned plodding charade of egregious explication Bower is blithely _unctuous_, reader, with regard to his predicted prosecution of the patent, plain, and portentously prosaic. Then he dismisses in one indiscriminate paragraph, very explicably _without_ the glib citation used elsewhere, the serious work of one man in the field decidedly contrary to his sophomoric suppositions and deleterious dissertations. That man is the late Doctor John Mack. Bower's _insult_ to the braver man's honor and memory in unconscionable... forgetting the preponderance of 6 levels of evidence near _dictating_ an otherwise nearer _certainty_ of ufological reality... and a _truth_ in many of Dr. Mack's considered observations... It remains, reader, that Bower didn't use _any_ of the quality abduction literature in his one-sided research... in his trite and otherwise hackneyed article... Not Jacobs, not Hopkins, and most assuredly, _not_ Dr. Mack... among others. Moreover, a study of the references actually used in Bowers' tediously written mechanism of cant, bias, and denial _plainly_ shows a prejudice for a reflection of citations that are not really talking about the same subject, that are ignoring peer reviewed works decidedly contrary to Bower's self-fulfilling theme, and insouciantly contriving to impose a back-stepping spin on the subject of Dr. Mack's _much_ braver study... a spin as unbalanced as it is duplicitous... a spin as uninformed as it was cowardly. Susan Clancy? Didn't she just open her mouth, insert her foot, and then echo her abundant cluelessness... her _sullen_ ignorance and _uninformed_ intransigence... all over the known universe via the Larry King show? _This_ was a quality reference? Mr. Bower, it would seem, is no more than a full tilt facilitation and max zoom bionic _dweeb_ of fatuous credulity... He gives real science a bad name... and eats his _own_ foot... you know? On reflection, for all the flash and dazzle of the mainstream push behind him? In the opinion of this writer, he handily invalidates himself and the science he would pretend to champion... only. Verily, reader... This is science? No, give me a whole _roomful_ of dodgy guys named "George," a hell on Earth in its own right, but preferable to Bower's two steps back and a step to the side of shined-on simplistic sophistry... Consider... a sizable proportion of innocent persons affected by an abduction scenario are affected from a... wide awake... state, Sir or Madam, while the intrepid Mr. Bower would pretend all these persons were just confused about mere night terrors and bad dreams. Credulity indeed reigns at ScienceSnooze... eh, reader? Feh!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:08:04 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:43:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <<snip>> >The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad >way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I >suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. I >have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine research >at any of them. This sort of communication is generally more >effective through publication in magazines and journals and >nowadays through the Internet. >Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise >that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like Dr >Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can suspend >their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts of weird >and exotic excitements before returning to their dull, everyday >lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just don't pretend >there's anything particularly serious or scientific about them. >They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but >ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. >>Response 2 >>You're quite right John. Then the snake oil salesmen and >>assorted con artists would be deprived of earning a living and >>taking money off the poor, gullible public. So, when are you >>going to stop publishing Magonia then?. Sorry. That last remark >>should have gone in the first reply. >I think the only person who seems to make a living (however >meagre) out of UFO conferences is Stanton Friedman. I think you >owe him an apology! >BTW, thanks for your renewal subscription last week! Surely you jest John! I will be gone for 4 days this coming weekend to the 36th annual Mutual UFO Network Symposium in Denver. My fee, as with the other speakers, will be $100. plus expenses. We all also had to provide a written paper which will be included in the Proceedings which are available at the Conference. Rather unusual for most UFO Conferences, Surely I enjoy the friendship, meeting and greeting etc., and also learn something. Having spoken at more of the MUFON Symposia over the years than anyone, I obviously I haven't made a living from them. I am reasonable well paid for my college lectures which only take a day of my time give me much more radio, TV, and Newspaper publicity. There have been book royalties. Hopefully more will be coming from the new edition of my book, TOP SECRET/MAJIC, 2nd edition, which includes a new chapter dealing with (refuting) a load of attacks on the MJ-12 documents. I will have copies next week. Only $17.00 including shipping and handling (and autograph)from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Abduction Homework [was: Toronto Hosts UFO From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:13:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:47:55 -0400 Subject: Abduction Homework [was: Toronto Hosts UFO >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:14:46 -0400 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:30:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>Sure would be nice if that CUFOS in-home environment >>monitoring experiment, in the homes of active abductees, >>were published! Several months ago they told me they >>were "having difficulty" analyzing the data. >I'd like to offer James Smith the names of a few authors, books >and articles on abduction for him to look into. His ignorance of >the abduction phenomenon is deep. I guess I missed something. How did I show my ignorance to be so deep? Did I ever say the abduction phenomenon was false, made- up, unreal,etc? No, in the past I have asked why we can't get some data on these weird events. Hard data. Tracking, EMF monitoring, filming (!!!) gravimetric field montoring, etc. Not recounting of events by witnesses. I am so tired of witness stories. Yes, they "experienced" the event but until we can download their neuron patterns, its "just" a story. Abduction cases _should_ be the greatest way to _prove_ ET/aliens/UFOs exist because some folk are alledged ET magnets and thus allow us to be able to record and monitor such events. Too bad that this is not done. >Perhaps actually knowing what he's talking about has a low >priority for him. But then, Mr. Smith has his mind made up about >so very many things. ;) Uh, do I have to be an expert in order to have an opinion? Some people would say you are revealing a fascistic attitude. But not me. You are right about my mind being made up about many things, but unless you are a channeler or telepath (thanks to alien contact), you have little insight into what. >And please, in future, do a 'little' homework on abduction >_before_ you 'sound off' about it. You should be embarrassed to >reveal such ignorance (in public or privately) of a subject you >have so much to say about. We all thank you so very much for your concern about our
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 19 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:43:33 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:57:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >>Coming from someone who organises mothly pub meetings to discuss >>the other side of the coin, that's a bit rich. >Hmmm. 'Organises' is a bit strong. I simply announce that I >will be in a particular pub at a particular time (The Railway, >Putney, SW London, at about 19:30hrs on the first Sunday of each >month, if anyone's interested) and if people would like to come >along for a drink and a chat, they are welcome. <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 What's Good for SETI's Goose... From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:45:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:00:36 -0400 Subject: What's Good for SETI's Goose... Source: http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ What's Good for SETI's Goose Apparently Isn't Good for Ufology's Gander! By Frank Warren 7-18-05 Once again Seth Shostak has opened mouth and inserted foot. In the wake of the "Larry King Show" pertaining to the reality of UFOs, which aired on the 6th of this month, Shostak who was one of the guests on the show (as a debunker) recently penned an article, which was published by Space.com; in it Shostak reconfirms his ignorance on the subject of Ufology, and some of his statements raise the question of his aptitude in regards to what he brings to the table for SETI. He begins his article by applauding the news of recent polls affirming that two thirds of the American public believe that extraterrestrial life exists, yet in the same breath explains that it's "weird" that the same number believe that our planet is being visited by some of those extraterrestrials. He appears to make an attempt to praise recent television shows for their intrepidness in broaching the UFO subject; however, tries to instill in his reader's minds that the motives of those who produce the shows is dubious as they never succeed in "defining" the UFO enigma. He admits that interstellar travel is achievable, but then intimates the implausibility of it by referencing the "Pioneer and Voyager" space probes, nearly 30-year-old technology, which are "coasting" in space; he seems to want his readers to believe that the inefficiency of "rocket propulsion" is the standard, that astronautics is stationary in regards to development and innovation. Rather then apprizing the reader of the latest technologies pertaining to space travel, e.g., "ion propulsion, solar sails, beam particle and or laser drives, as well as magnetoplasma technologies, Shostak chooses to leap into wormholes (no pun intended). Of course up to this point albeit redundant, not only is Shostak painting a picture of implausibility relative to interstellar space travel, he's also talking about "man's" abilities to do so; the old standard, "if 'we can't' get there from here" then obviously "they can't here from there" ideology. After priming "his debunking pump" he then begins his narrative of his participation on the King show; he furthers the party line by referencing photographs of "putative saucers hovering at low altitudes" which appeared to be "out-of-focus lights, while others resembled hubcap-shaped Frisbees caught in mid- trajectory" as the primary evidence offered by leading Ufologists. Point in fact, Shostak has repeatedly, and publicly admitted his "lack of participation" of research into the UFO phenomenon, so it's understandable that one might get a chuckle when reading his criticism of Dr. Bruce Maccabee who aside from earning a Ph. D. in physics, also began working at the Naval Surface Warfare Center doing "optical data processing" amongst other things. Dr. Maccabee has been studying the UFO phenomena for over 40 years. That said, Shostak again skirted the "preponderance of evidence" as is his routine, and focused on one piece of the puzzle while ignoring the supportive data. Shostak wants his readers to believe that Ufologists see an anomalous object and immediately label it an ET craft! The discussion about the "Heflin photo" is a good case in point. While Dr. Maccabee acknowledged his study of previous researchers' analysis, as well as doing his own work on the photo, stated that in his opinion, "the photos themselves indicate that this is a real object and there is a possibility of estimating, let's say, distance and size based on the atmospheric effects on the photo -- on the object itself, indicating how bright it is as a function of distance. It's a bit technical, but it does suggest that the object was probably within a few thousand feet of the camera." He did not say that the object was an "extraterrestrial craft," only that based on his experience the photo was genuine and not hoaxed. It's important to point out that the character of the individual who took the picture was also taken in to consideration. Shostak's next target was "eye-witness testimony." He correctly pointed out the impressive credentials of the various witnesses to UFO events, e.g., pilot's, astronauts etc., and as usual states, "just because you don't recognize an aerial phenomenon doesn't mean that it's an extraterrestrial visitor." He goes on to say, that it "requires additional evidence that, so far, seems to be as unconvincing as the trickery-free saucer snaps." Here's a curious thing; Seth Shostak has been involved in numerous UFO shows, TV and radio alike as well as debates etc.; the "additional evidence" he deems necessary has been pointed out to him on several occasions, yet he makes no mention of it in his article. For whatever the reason, he failed to mention "physical trace cases, radar reports in support of eye-witness testimony, magnetic anomalies in association with UFO sightings, thermal effects, light effects, forensic evidence, and finally thousands of pages, if not hundreds of thousands pages of government documental evidence to name a few. Shostak briefly takes time to make light of "Abductees" plight referring to "scoop marks" often found on their bodies, asking why "beings from distant suns would come to Earth to 'melon-ball' the locals." He injects the idea of "spousal abuse" (as well as others) as the cause of the skin anomalies. Shostak claims that, "the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists," yet failed to the name any who have studied the data; he says, "very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants," but omits the fact that Ufologists argue that this is part of the problem. He incorrectly adds, that UFO experts state that "convincing proof" has been coveted by the power-that-be, and that "scientists have simply refused to look carefully at this phenomenon." The evidence as I have mentioned above is in abundance; Seth Shostak has been exposed to it; yet he fails to mention it in his article. Does the government have information/evidence they are withholding? =97This is a fact based on their own admission. Have scientists investigated the UFO phenomenon?" Most certainly, and they are called Ufologists. Has "mainstream science" investigated the UFO phenomenon? No! Shostak erroneously likens the lack of scientific investigation to the "UFO phenomenon" to describing "movie critics" who "can compose excellent and accurate evaluations of a movie without being participants in the business of making films." I have to admit that I was awestruck by this declaration, bear in mind that Seth Shostak is an educated, intelligent man. He has a BA in physics from Princeton and a PhD in astronomy from Caltech. What was he thinking?! Excusing the omission of scientific investigation of a world-wide phenomenon, and using an analogy of "film critics and film makers" in essence proclaiming it's not essential because as scientists they don't have to involve themselves in the research, or do their own research in order to postulate a theorem! With this mind-set, it makes one wonder how SETI can get any funding! The irony of course is that statement comes from a man who is the "Senior Astronomer" for SETI (Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence) which is, by their own definition a "private, nonprofit organization dedicated to 'scientific research', [emphasis added] education and public outreach." Furthermore SETI has been searching the stars for years, of evidence of other technological civilizations, i.e., by listening for radio signals. The evidence they offer in support of their methodology is "speculation" that given a suitable environment and sufficient
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 29 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:23:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:07:00 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 29 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 29 July 20, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ UFO CAUSES ARGENTINA TO LOCK DOWN RURAL AREA A mysterious blue "fireball" caused Argentina's Navy and the Policia Provincial de Corrientes to lock down a rural area of the upper Rio Parana and deploy forces in an intense ground search. (Editor's Note: The Argentinian Navy patrols the Rio Parana, which forms that country's border with neighboring Paraguay.) "Elements of the Policia Provincial, the National Gendarmes and the Naval Prefecture carried out a broad joint operation in the town of Saladas, near San Lorenzo," on the Rio Parana in northern Argentina, "in order to determine the truth of a complaint made by a man who, driving toward the community, saw a fireball falling to the ground bordering the Rio Parana." "According to the report, filed yesterday (Thursday, July 14, 2005) at the Empedrado Cuartel (Barracks) of the Naval Prefecture, the glow moved from southwest to northeast. 'It was a fireball, like a small plane disintegrating after an explosion.'" "This was the description of the UFO that the driver gave to the Prefecture duty officer. (Naval) Elements immediately reported this to the San Lorenzo Sheriff's Office, and the combined operation and information-sharing began shortly after." "The sun was not quite up as the combined (operation's) personnel made their way across the alleged impact zone" outside Saladas. "They inspected the fields adjacent to the river, the ranches of the San Lorenzo rural area, but no one found traces of the object sought." "Most of the local residents were interrogated, but none of them had even heard their dogs bark." "It was then that the story of a member of the Road Control Police in Cuatro Bocas, near Saladas, became known." "According to the police officer, an eyewitness to the event, the glow truly existed but at a greater height (altitude) than a private plane can reach in flight. This probability was dismissed in order to concentrate on the likelihood of a meteor impact." "The search continued but no trace of the rock or space junk was found. A communique was issued by the Empedrado Prefecture to the (Navy) barracks at Goya, Bella Vista and Corrientes." "By evening, nothing further was known about the matter, according to a report by Naval Prefecture spokesman Andres Ramirez." The blue UFO "was the talk of the town over the radio, in bars and in newsrooms" throughout Corrientes province. "What was it that crossed the Chaco skies in the wee hours of the morning? Phones rang off the hook at the local radio stations, suggesting that at around six in the morning, a 'fireball' crossed the sky at high speed, leaving a long blue trail in its path." "The most frightened callers wanted to alert listeners to the possibility that a stricken aircraft was falling to the ground enveloped in flames, a report which was rejected by the Northeastern Air Region (Spanish acronym: RANE--J.T.) from the lack of any incidents involving a heavenly body." "However, there are witnesses, not only in the (provincial) capital but also in the (Chaco) interior, who contacted (the Argentinian newspaper) El Norte to confirm that they had witnessed the passage of the 'heavenly fireball.'" "One of the eyewitness accounts came from Sergio Acosta, who said that between 6:05 and 6:10 a.m." on Thursday, July 14, 2005, "while he was driving a truck, he noticed 'a powerful light that lit up the sky.'" "He informed LT-16 Radio Santa Esmeralda that he 'looked upward and saw something like a giant star, flying at high speed, at an altitude that did not exceed 1,000 to 1,500 meters (3,300 to 4,950 feet) in an east to west direction, until it became lost in the horizon.'" "Apparently, he was so alarmed by the strange object's flight pattern that some details were burned into his mind. 'It lost a chunk of its luminous body in flight, and in its rear it had something like 'a little tail,' following it at a close distance, like a hot coal, as though it was a jet engine or a navigation light. But it was a very large object,' Acosta remarked." "This was one of the most detailed accounts of the sighting. But there were at least four other witnesses who claim having seen the light with similar characteristics--and at the same time--crossing the skies." "It was even said that one of the witnesses made a drawing of what he had seen." "When asked if it could have been an airplane, he said it was unlikely because 'it was noiseless. It drew my attention because it was (flying) in total silence. I thought it was a shooting star, but I've seen shooting stars before, and they make a whistling sound. This one made no noise whatsoever.'" "'Furthermore, it wasn't fiery-colored but had more colors than a star, like a satellite, but very large and even titillated (flickered). It was so fast that it took between 6 and 10 seconds to cross the sky, which was completely clear.'" "'I saw this thing, and night was turned into day. It lit up everything,' said Cesar Gustavo Blanco to a local FM radio station. Blanco is a rural worker who was on his way to a farm field north of Napenay. Nervous after having seen the object, while he was trying to find an earthly explanation for it, he said, 'I turned off my pickup truck's engine because I was shocked, and there was no sound. But I could hear something, like a whistling sound, and I felt fear because this was really the sound of silence." Saladas is located 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of Corrientes, the provincial capital, and 435 kilometers (261 miles) north of Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina. (See the Argentinian newspapers El Litoral of July 15, 2005, "Police comb area after UFO sighting;" Las Noticias Corrientes for July 15, 2005, "Commotion over Chaco flying object continues;" and El Norte for July 15, 2005, "Fireball sweeps across skies over the Chaco." Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Cristian Quintero del grupo Planeta UFO por estes articulos de diario.) LUMINOUS UFO SEEN IN CENTRAL ARGENTINA "The person in charge of a farm in Peru, a town in La Pampa province" in central Argentina "found himself witnessing the path of a low-flying luminous object that changed colors continuously from red to green and passing through an intermediate orange stage." "It should be noted that this farm is crossed by a 132-kilovolt high-voltage power line that links the city of General Acha and Guatrache." "The time was 7:30 p.m. and Alberto S. noted a mysterious spectacle of electrical arcing taking place over the high-voltage line in question. Filled with fear, he decided to return to the residential area where he discussed the event with other (farm) employees." "On the next day, he returned to the site where the incident took place and found that a maintenance crew from the Administracion Provincial de Energia (APE) was already on-site. The repairmen were acting on a report related by the control station and were trying to ascertain the precise location and cause of the interruption in the power supply. Having located it, they proceeded with the needed repairs." "The repairmen found that the connecting elements joining the two lines had melted and shrunk lengthwise, leaving only a small seven-centimeter (3-inch) chunk. These connectors, known as puentes (Spanish for bridges-- J.T.), are metallic and usually one meter (3 feet, 3 inches) long and 25 millimeters (1 inch) thick." "While no evidence regarding the power failure was found at first, they found a (crop) circle approximately 5 meters (16.5 feet) in diameter outlined in the grass. They also found that the soil presented a high degree of hardness and compactness." "After being told of the farmer's experience the night before, the technicians concluded that some kind of interaction occurred between the electromagnetic field of the 132-kilovolt power line and the energy field of an unidentified flying object." Guatrache is in eastern La Pampa province, located about 500 kilometers (300 miles) southwest of Buenos Aires, the national capital. (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Raul Oscar Chavez para estas noticias.) NEW UFO FLAP BREAKS OUT IN UK "A second unidentifiable flying object has been spotted in the sky above Bracknell," Berkshire, UK. "Last week the Bracknell News revealed that residents living near the Coppid Beech Hotel saw what they thought was an alien space craft. Now another witness has reported seeing a strange object in the sky above Bracknell and wants help in identifying what it might have been." "Terry Campbell said he and his two colleagues were installing a new synthetic hockey pitch off Ringmead in Birch Hill around 3 p.m. on Sunday," June 26, 2005, "when he saw what he believes was an object in the shape of an ashtray in the sky. Mr. Campbell, a surface technician, said the sky was clear and blue. He said: 'Imagine a round ashtray--a deep round ashtray. It was stationary but the sunlight was glistening on that paintwork or metal work.'" "Mr. Campbell added: 'It was like suddenly holding a mirror and flashing it on and off in your eyes--there was sunlight off the side of it.'" "He said: 'To the naked eye, it could certainly be the third of the size of an average aircraft.'" "Mr. Campbell said the team studied the object for about 15 minutes and it appeared to be hovering. Clouds then moved across the sky and, when they had cleared, the object was gone." "Mr. Campbell said: 'There was nothing frightening or alarming about it other than the fact it was there. We didn't know whether it might have been a weather station or satellite or something.'" "He said: 'There's hundreds of things up in the sky. There could be a logical explanation. If there's not, then obviously my eyes are open to the fact that there could be UFOs out there.'" On Wednesday, July 13, 2005, at 4:40 p.m., Clare Smith was at her flat in the Hammersmith section of London when she looked out her bedroom window and saw something unusual in the sky. "On a hot sunny day, with a few grey clouds scattered around, I was looking out of the window in amazement and spotted one strange object in the sky," Clare reported, "I observed it very carefully. After a few seconds, it flew in a different direction. It couldn't have been an aeroplane." "As it flew to my left, another flying object appeared, and then a few more, flying around each other. Around 10 flying objects were grouped together, silvery in colour. Hard to tell the exact shape as they were flying so far away, at the same level as more conventional aircraft. Their movement was fairly fast." On Monday, July 11, 2005, at 9 p.m., Mark Couch and his fiancee were out walking the dog in South Wigston, Leicestershire when they saw an unusual object "that must have been over the northwest of England or Wales." "While walking the dog, my partner and I saw a bright light, similar in the sky to Mars on a clear night, which then dimmed and began entering the atmosphere in a vertical descent," Mark reported, "I thought it was a large meteor or rock. Then it slowed after a few minutes of rapid descent and changed direction to a northerly downward descent. From outside Earth's atmosphere, descending vertically, then moving horizontally west toward Ireland and the USA." "After totally entering into the atmosphere, the object changed direction again to a southwesterly horizontal approach and trailed a long reddish jet of what looked like hot gases/fire." "After 20 to 30 minutes, that jet was just a descending speck on the horizon, and the unidentified object looked like an orange scar on the sunset." "I also noted that there was another 'scar' 90 degrees to the left at a slightly lower point on the horizon. The colour and shape were hard to tell, because of the distance. I know I didn't imagine it, and my fiancee saw the whole thing with me." Also on Monday, July 11, 2005, at 4:45 p.m., Neill Drever was picnicking at Coniston Lake in the Lakes District of Cumbria with his wife and two-year-old son when something unusual happened. "Nothing was seen or heard while my nine photos were being taken," Neill reported, "But when I uploaded them to my PC (personal computer--J.T.) I found lots of objects in the sky. As it was a perfectly clear day, with no clouds overhead, I can be positive that these pictures were NOT taken by me. If they were, I would not have taken the photos, as the whole point was the sky was perfectly clear above the lake. There was nothing there." "It may be nothing, but it seems very unusual to me, as we were there with my two-and-a-half-year-old son who loves planes. I'm sure he would've pointed them out to me if there were so many, as he has done so in the past." On Friday, July 8, 2005, at 7:40 p.m., eyewitness Nash reported, "On an unusually clear July evening by the docks in Preston, Lancashire, I took a photo of the splendid view of the docksides in Preston on my mobile phone camera, as I and my wife sat on a beach by the water." "Having viewed my photo, I noticed an unexplained object in the right-hand corner of my picture. It was no bird, no helicopter or plane, and I have the photos to prove it. There was no sound, no lights, but there it is- -a rather long black object in the sky, possibly triangular as viewed on my picture." "If you could find out what it was, I think it would clear up a lot of confusion. Otherwise, this is really more mysterious than meets the eye." (See the British newspaper Berkshire News for July 14, 2005, "Another UFO flies over town." Many thanks to Robert Fischer for this newspaper article. The others were all Email Form Reports.) UFOs SIGHTED IN THE CRIMEA Crimea, the southernmost point of the Ukraine, reports a UFO outbreak along the Black Sea coast. According to Crimean ufologist Anton A. Anfalov, "On Thursday, June 14, 2005, at 10:30 p.m., several witnesses along the south coast of the Crimea saw a lengthy but disk-shaped UFO emitting red light. The disk traveled in mid-air along the coastline of the Black Sea near Yalta and then began hovering around the peak of Mount Mogabi (elevation 804 meters or 2,655 feet). The UFO then crossed the sky southwest of Yalta and hovered above Aypetri Mountain. The disk then emitted two bright flashes of the mysterious red light, which were pointed towards the ground. After that, the UFO swiftly zoomed upward and vanished in the night sky." On Saturday, July 2, 2005, in Simferopol, Crimean ufologist Yuri A. Pugachyev reported, "while standing on my balcony on the eighth floor of Building 88, an apartment complex on Kievskaya Street, I saw a brightly- lit object emitting yellow light moving across a night sky saturated with stars over Simferopol. It was neither a satellite nor an airplane. The UFO remained bright during the several minutes of the sighting and moved away in a zigzagging trajectory." Simferopol is about 40 kilometers (25 miles) northeast of Sevastopol in southern Crimea. (See the Ukrainian newspaper Krymskiye Izvestiya for June 22, 2005. Many thanks to Anton A. Anfalov for this these reports.) ANOMALOUS TORNADO CAUSES PANIC IN SIBERIA Tom Cruise's new movie War of the Worlds is being blamed for a strange incident in Khabarovsk, a port city in western Siberia. "War of the Worlds has been blamed for a mass panic in Siberia after local residents mistook a tornado for an alien invasion." Trouble began when moviegoers exited the theater in Khabarovsk on Saturday, July 8, 2005. As they were buffeted by strong, fierce wind gusts from a tornado west of the port city, people remembered the opening scenes of War of the Worlds, and they thought the alien invasion was happening in real life. The tornado was estimated to be an F3 on the Fujikawa scale. "People of the Khabarovsk region jumped out of their cars and fled their houses in panic when the freak winds arrived, flattening trees and destroying property. But officials from Russia's emergency service said the destruction had been caused by a 'freak tornado' that ripped through the area." "Officials blamed the fear of an alien invasion on the recent showing of the Tom Cruise film." "Natalia Lukash, spokeswoman for Russia's Far Eastern Emergency Situations Center, said, 'It was a strange phenomenon, and many people jumped to the wrong conclusion and believed that it had been caused by an alien spaceship landing in the area.'" "A team of experts has been sent to Khabarovsk to assess the damage." Khabarovsk is located 760 kilometers (475 miles) north of Valdivostok. (See the Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun for July 10, 2005. Many thanks to Angela Tarohachi for this newspaper article.) RED LIGHT UFO SIGHTED IN CLEVELAND'S SUBURBS On Sunday, July 10, 2005, at 11:30 p.m., a mysterious red light appeared over the western suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio and was seen by thousands of witnesses. Cleveland ufologist Aaron Clark provided several accounts of the sighting. "This evening I was coming home after dropping off my daughter's friend," one woman reported, "It was between 11:30 p.m. and midnight. I live on Big Creek Parkway in Middleburg Heights (population 15,542) between Smith and Bagley Roads. I had my two teenage daughters and my niece in the car with me. I noticed a bright red light in the sky above my house. It actually looked like the one on a TV tower except it wasn't blinking." "I mentioned this to the girls. They were all fascinated. We stood in the driveway for approximately 20 minutes viewing the light. We got my husband's binoculars, but it just looked like a bigger red light in the binoculars. Watching the light, it looked like a star except it could get brighter and dimmer, and it appeared to be moving very slowly in the sky." "My daughters kept saying it was a meteor, but I kept telling them that meteors move very quickly across the sky. I started wondering if it was a red star. Suddenly, it looked as though it were falling. It zipped through the sky with such speed. It appeared to be going north. Then it disappeared." Another witness reported, "I'm not sure what we saw last night (Sunday, July 10, 2005). While working at Cleveland Hopkins Airport, we saw a red light in the sky just above the Ford plant in Brook Park (population 21,218). The light hovered for about 45 minutes or so. It was probably 2,000 to 3,000 feet (600 to 900 meters) in the sky. It was not a helicopter, a blimp or an airplane. It also made no noise. The Air Traffic Control (ATC) tower was called, and they didn't know what it was, either. Eventually, it turned and started moving east and eventually vanished in the sky. Also, it was a clear night. Any ideas?" Eyewitness R.H. reported, "I saw it at 12:15 a.m. It appeared from the southwest. A very bright red light that looked like a star or a planet. It didn't appear to be moving. At times it looked as though the light would go dim and go higher. After studying it for what appeared to be two or three minutes, it started to move south very slowly. And, as it moved off into the horizon, it just faded out of sight. At times it did change speed. I saw it here in Brook Park. At one point, it was not moving at all, or maybe at 3 to 5 miles per hour. I heard something about this incident on radio station WGAR 99.5 FM out of Cleveland." (Email Form Reports) TWO UFOs SIGHTED IN BUFFALO, N.Y. On Monday, July 11, 2005, at 9:30 p.m., eyewitness Tara H. "was watching TV in my bedroom with my five-year- old son" when she looked out the window and spotted a strange object approaching from the east. "The sky was clear. It was a pretty warm night, and there wasn't much wind," Tara reported, "I went to adjust my window fan to see if it was on High (power) when I looked up into the sky towards downtown Buffalo (population 292,648)." "I saw two strange objects which seemed to be floating in the sky. I grabbed my camcorder to see if I could zoom in on them to get a closer look. Upon doing so, and not knowing what they were, I squeezed the Record button to see if maybe I could get a better look on the playback. I think I got about 10 seconds of tape before they shot out of sight." "They were very bright, looking just like white lights and had a triangular shape. Not sure about their speed. At first they were standing still, and then they moved so fast that I couldn't follow them with my camera." Buffalo, N.Y. is at the eastern end of Lake Erie, located approximately 295 miles (492 kilometers) west of Albany, the state capital. (Email Form Report) UFO SEEN BY WOMAN IN LAKE OSWEGO, OREGON On Monday, June 6, 2005, Eileen Mann was with her sister in Eureka, California (population 26,128) when she saw a luminous UFO. Imagine her surprise when, a week later, she returned home to Lake Oswego, Oregon (population 35,278) she encountered the same type of craft. "Upon her return to Oregon," her sister reported, "with her consciousness raised, she has observed a number of these craft from her yard in Lake Oswego, a southern suburb of Portland. And this is with a restricted view as she stood amongst large pine trees and was looking straight up." Lake Oswego is on Oregon Highway 43 about 10 miles (16 kilometers) south of Portland. (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS UFO SEEN IN WINDSOR, ONTARIO On Saturday, July 2, 2005, eyewitness Jason Smith reported, "Two of us were sitting on a patio" in Windsor, Ontario, Canada (population 197,694) "having a cigarette and looking out toward the sky. We saw what looked like a shooting star or a comet, heading northwest at a downward angle. We were facing south on Highway 101. We assumed it was a firework at first, but then realized it came from a much higher altitude. Only it seemed to come down right in front of me so close that you could see the surface of its body." "My roommate returned from Toronto (about a four-hour drive--J.S.) at about 1:30 a.m. and immediately asked if I had seen it, too. He said he was driving the (Provincial Highway) 401 when he saw it. Its colour was a burning orange, and it moved from space to the ground in a fireball." (Email Form Report) UFO WAS PHOTOGRAPHED OVER CULIACAN, MEXICO On Sunday, July 3, 2005, "Juan Antonio Lopez Quiroa photographed an unidentified flying object over the city of Culiacan in northern Mexico at 11 a.m." "The images were taken with digital photographic equipment, and with the peculiar detail that the eyewitness saw nothing unusual in the sky" when he triggered the camera. "In other words, we are dealing with another case of 'invisible UFOs,'" Mexican ufologist Dr. Ana Luisa Cid Fernandes reported. Dr. Cid also reported another case in which she herself was the photographer. On Monday, May 23, 2005, at 7 p.m., Dr. Cid captured "an image of a UFO hovering over Cerro Chiquihuite (hill) in the northern suburbs of Mexico City." As with the Lopez Quiroa case, Dr. Cid said there was "nothing in the sky when I took the digital photograph." Culiacan is the capital of Mexico's state of Sinaloa. The city is located about 550 kilometers (330 miles) northwest of Mexico City. (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Dr. Ana Luisa Cid Fernandes para estas noticias.) BIGFOOT APPEARS AGAIN NEAR TESLIN IN THE YUKON "The legendary creature 'Bigfoot' has been spotted again, this time in Canada, where nine people in the Yukon community of Teslin claim to have seen" the hairy man- beast. "According to the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. (CBC), the witnesses, some of whom were children, saw the hairy, human-like creature pass in front of a house window and then later behind an abandoned car area near some houses last weekend," i.e. between Friday and Sunday, July 8 and July 10, 2005. "Those who claim to have seen Bigfoot, which is also known as a Sasquatch, said they heard the trees snapping and cracking" as it passed through the woods. "'He ran through the backyard, and that's when I seen him,' said one man who was on his front porch at the time. 'You could see a big, black thing go by, and you couldn't see its head or something.'" "'We weren't gonna tell anybody at first 'cause we thought everybody would just look at us and say we're all snakin' or we're crazy,' said another eyewitness. "'I wasn't too much for explainin' it at first but, once everybody started believin' us, it was not so bad. They wanted to see the (beast's) track. They wanted to see the hair and stuff like that. I wouldn't want to run into him in a dark alley or anything like that. Geez, it stands over 10 feet (3 meters) tall. It could probably tear my head off or something.'" "The man said some evidence was left, including a footprint about twice the size of a human print, and a patch of dark hair that has already been sent to a conservation officer in Whitehorse for possible DNA research." This was the second Bigfoot sighting for Teslin. In the summer of 2004, two men driving on a county road saw the creature emerge from the woods and cross the road ahead of them. (See WorldNet Daily for July 14, 2005, "Bigfoot spotted in Yukon." Many thanks to "Sourdough Pete and Cheechako" for this news story.) From the UFO Files... 1945: MASONIC BOMB Saturday, July 16, 2005 was the 60th anniversary of the first atomic bomb explosion at the Trinity site in Alamogordo, New Mexico, which John J. McCloy called "probably of greater significance than the discovery of electricity." However, sixty years later, there are still a few oddities associated with this world-shaking event. The road to Ground Zero began when chemist George Kistiakowsky finished "repairing the lenses" on "Oppie's gadget," the nuclear bomb prototype created by physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer. On Thursday, July 5, 1945, Oppenheimer sent a telegram to his colleagues, Ernest Lawrence at Berkeley and Arthur Compton at Chicago: "Any time after the (July) 15th would be a good time for our fishing trip (bomb test) because we are not certain of the weather. We may be delayed as we do not have enough sleeping bags to go around. We ask you please do not bring anyone with you." "Three days later (Sunday, July 8, 1945) the 'dummy' bomb at Los Alamos began a series of tests, each foreshadowing by a few days what would happen at Trinity. To start with, it was driven for miles over rock-strewn roads to simulate the journey down to Los Alamos. It came through this first experience unscathed." On Thursday, July 12, 1945, at 3 p.m., "Philip Morrison (Oppenheimer's former student--J.T.), accompanied by a guard and a radiologist, removed the fissionable plutonium core from the vault...The core had been separated into several sub-critical (mass) pieces which were fitted into two special valises for the journey down to Trinity." Morrison recalled, "Each one was protected against corrosion, against dropping into water, against overheating, against overcooking in every way we could think of. We regarded the test in the desert merely as an exercise for carrying out the same routines in the Pacific. But we were apprehensive about an automobile accident." But that didn't stop Morrison from driving through downtown Santa Fe with two valises full of plutonium "in the back seat of Robert Bacher's sedan and, with one security car ahead of them and one behind, they set off for Alamogordo." "I remember, when we were driving through Santa Fe, which was then quite a sleepy little town, I was just thinking about what an extraordinary thing it was to be driving along there in just an ordinary car and yet we were carrying the core of the first atomic bomb," Morrison recalled. Fortunately, no one ran a red light on San Mateo Road and broadsided Morrison's car. Otherwise, everything east of Agua Fria Street would have been vaporized. Oppie's gang had their next misadventure with the plutonium core at the Ground Zero tower. "To protect themselves from the dust and the sand, the scientists at the base of the tower were working inside a tent which, after the heat and brilliance of the desert, had a cool ecclesiastical feel about it. In the gloom the core was attached to a manually-operated hoist and raised above the explosive assembly before being slowly lowered into it. Yet again the atmosphere was extraordinary. Ticking geiger counters. The occasional instruction, nothing more. The critical parts of the core were held apart by so little that a knock could start a chain reaction (and an explosion--J.T.). Oppenheimer again hovered around the operators as they guided the core downwards. As it was lowered into the heart of the bomb, the ticking of the geiger counters mounted to a crescendo. The operation was halted to run a check on the rising neutron count, then continued." Suddenly--near disaster. The plutonium core got stuck in the cylindrical trigger casing. Oppenheimer goggled in disbelief. Both the core and the casing had been machined to exact specifications. Insertion had been tested hundreds of times with the 'dummy' bomb. Every single time, the core had slipped right into the casing. But not this time. The plutonium was stuck halfway in and halfway out of the steel well, splashing radiation all around the tent. "Now what do we do?" one scientist asked. Captain James Nolan, the aide to Gen. Leslie R. Groves, swore, "Of all the fucked-up details--!" "We all thought it should fit because we'd tried it with dummies," Robert Bacher recalled, "But then we realized that this one was plutonium and was very hot and was producing heat so it had expanded a little. So, we decided to just wait to see whether the two pieces would arrive at some temperature equilibrium." Finally the team got the core down into the trigger casing. It was Captain Nolan, by the way, who "drew up a set of evacuation plans and took them to Groves at Oak Ridge (Tennessee) for his approval. Fall-out it seems had not been one of Groves' priorities, and he baulked at the suggestion that (Army) troops and trucks be prepared for rapid evacuation of the Trinity site." "'What are you, a Hearst propagandist?' he asked Nolan." "By this Groves meant that any preparations for evacuation in nearby towns would jeapordise security and the test could find its way into the following day's headlines. Groves had already prepared a series of possible press releases depending on the size of the test." (Editor's Note: True enough. In any American newspaper of July 17, 1945, you can read the cover story about "the explosion of an Army ammunition dump" in New Mexico.) What Capt. Nolan didn't know, and neither did Oppenheimer and his scientists, was that Gen. Groves had already gotten Gen. George C. Marshall's permission to make "arrangements with the Governor of New Mexico to declare martial law throughout the area and also to carry out mass evacuation, should it become necessary." But the strangest Trinity mystery is the selection of the test date. Who picked July 16? And why? "For most of the spring (1945) it had been hoped that the test would occur around July 4. In mid-June (when certain technical delays occurred) this was pushed up to July 13, and then--after a June 30 review--the date was again pushed 'to July 16 or as soon thereafter as weather conditions permitted." Oppenheimer wanted a later date. On Monday, July 2, 1945, at 12:50 p.m., Gen. Groves phoned Oppenheimer in Santa Fe. "Oppie said they...scheduled (the bomb test) for the (July) 17th. Dr. O said the 14th was possible but was not sure. Dr. O thought the wisest thing was to schedule it for the 17th in which case they would be fairly sure of getting the thing done within a few days of that day...GG (General Groves) said he did not like the idea of a later date because of the various things that were involved. GG also said that it was extemely important that it be completed by the earlier date, because of the various things that were involved...GG then told Dr. O the reason why the earlier date had to be. Dr. O said that they would meet the earlier date (July 16) but it went against his own feeling." "The cryptic report--'the various things that were involved'--though suggestive of a higher purpose is not definitive. At 3:30 p.m. the same day, Groves called James B. Conant, chairman of the National Defense Research Committee, about the same matter." "Dr. Conant said that the Gen had done the right thing to stay along with the earlier date. Dr. C suggested that GG get in touch with (physicist Richard C.) Tolman and request him to exert his efforts in getting Oppy and the men persuaded to the earlier date." Next, Gen. Groves phoned Undersecretary George Harrison at the War Department. "Gen. Groves said that he had a very strong urging from people in charge at the site (namely Oppenheimer) to postpone the (test) date for four days. Gen. Groves said that he had told Oppy that they had to have that first date (July 16) because of things beyond his control. Mr. Harrison said that was a sound decision...Mr. H then told (McGeorge) Bundy of the situation, and Mr. B said that other things were involved and the earlier date was the one." Various things that were involved. Things beyond his control. It is all very cryptic. Afterward, "Oppenheimer was quite candid about the fact that we 'were under incredible pressure to get it done before the Potsdam meeting.'" What was so important about Monday, July 16, 1945? Perhaps the answer lies with the man at the top, the new occupant of the White House--Harry S. Truman. The former Missouri senator and Roosevelt's last vice president had taken the Oath of Office on Thursday, April 12, 1945, which made him the 33rd president of the USA. However, Truman was also a 33rd degree Mason and undoubtedly knew the significance of the date July 16. Freemasonry has its ultimate origins in the religion of ancient Egypt. On July 16, the star Sirius rises above the horizon in Egypt. This event coincides with the rising of the Nile, making July 16 "New Year's Day" for the Pharoahs. Veneration of Sirius is also found in Masonry, where it is called "the Blazing Star," and is symbolized as a pentagram. Curiously, U.S. Army tanks and other military vehicles during World War II, and for decades thereafter, displayed a "white star" insignia--a white pentagram--the Masonic "Blazing Star." It would be interesting to find out who in Washington D.C. approved that insignia for American military vehicles. Following the successful test at Trinity, Truman was briefed on Saturday, July 21, 1945 by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, also a Mason. Four days later, the president noted in his diary, "We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark." "Anyway, we 'think' we have found a way to cause the disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexico desert was startling--to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower 60 feet high, created a crater six feet deep and knocked down men 10,000 yards away. The explosion was visible for more than 200 miles and audible for 40 miles or more." (Editor's Comment: There's that number thirteen again, yet another link to Masonry and hermetic magick.) Brig. Gen. Thomas F. Farrell wrote, "The effects could well be called unprecedented, magnificent, beautiful, stupendous and terrifying...Thirty seconds after the explosion came first, the air blast pressing hard against the people and things, to be followed almost immediately by the strong, sustained awesome roar which warned of doomsday and made us feel that we puny things were blasphemous to dare tamper with forces heretofore reserved to The Almighty." Physicist Ernest O. Lawrence described it as "a gigantic ball of fire rising rapidly from the earth," literally a "second sun" rising over the Jornada del Muerto desert, a man-made "Blazing Star" that just happened to rise on a Masonic holy day. "The hot fury locked inside those billions of plutonium atoms burst forth in one instant of blinding yellow glare. Oppie's fingers dug into his eyes to keep out the pain no lens could stop. Slowly his fingers, wet with tears, crept down his cheeks. He could see it now, the world on fire." "The radiance of a thousand suns." "The line came into his head from the Bhagavad Gita. The yellow ball of fire hovered, bellied out, rose, then turned to pale orange, to red, to blood red, rising now in a column, darkening and burning." "The end of the verse came to him: I am become Death, the Shatterer of Worlds." "The dark plume billowed into a great gray mushroom and, as they all looked up, the roar filled their ears and the heat blast nearly toppled them off balance. The entire astounding display had taken seconds--savage seconds in which an entire city could be obliterated." And the planet Earth would never be the same again. (See the books The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb by Gar Alperovitz, Alfred A. Knopf Books, New York, N.Y., 1995, pages 124, 129, 148, 149,150, 249, 250 and 251; The Swift Years: The J. Robert Oppenheimer Story by Peter Michelmore, Dodd, Mead & Co., New York, N.Y., 1969, pages 103, 107, 108 and 112: and J. Robert Oppenheimer, Shatterer of Worlds by Peter Goodchild, Houghton Mifflin Co., Boston, Mass., 1981, pages 130, 141 and 151.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites and in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:29:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:08:37 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Balaskas >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a >>look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with >>drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I >>suggest that you do. Quickly. >No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an >established fact. On the other hand, yes, there is a resemblance >between some UFO sightings - Arnold, Phoenix photograph - and >descriptions of the Roswell craft by witnesses (Rickett, >Gonzales and others) <snip> Hi Gildas! Although I agree with you; Stanton Friedman (see his book review of 'Body Snatchers in the Desert' in the June-July issue of 'UFO Magazine'); Dave Furlotte (listen to his 'Strange Days... Indeed' UFO radio show commentary, July 10) and many others that Nick Redfern's thesis on the truth behind the 1947 Roswell UFO crash is not supported by the known facts, we must remember that there were many thousands working in and around Roswell on secret projects at the time (some of them probably still classified) so there could be many other possible Roswell UFO crash scenarios. That said, your claim that "No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an established fact." is not totally correct... Last October I visited the new Smithsonian Air and Space Museum (Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center) outside Washington, D.C. in Virginia where I encountered many unexpected sights such as a German rocket powered jet bomber, a manned Japanese jet powered flying bomb (not unlike the German V-1) and the UFO mothership from the movie 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind'. What I also saw and took pictures of was an American built flying wing just like the ones the Horten brothers built and flew. Since I cannot share these pictures via the UFO UpDates list, below is a web site which has a picture of this pre-1947 flying wing - which has a notable German connection too. Unfortuately both the Army Air Force and Northrop records of this flying wing's initial tests (which was sometimes towed to high altitudes) in the 1940s have been lost!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:32:16 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:10:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 - >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:39 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad >>way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I >>suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. I >>have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine research >>at any of them. This sort of communication is generally more >>effective through publication in magazines and journals and >>nowadays through the Internet. >>Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise >>that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like Dr >>Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can suspend >>their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts of weird >>and exotic excitements before returning to their dull, everyday >>lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just don't pretend >>there's anything particularly serious or scientific about them. >>They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but >>ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. >I am inclined to agree with the above, with one qualification. >Basically, John is expressing a conclusion much like my own. I >attended my first UFO conference, a MUFON convention, in Iowa in >1975. It was thrilling because I got to meet all sorts of >people, including heroes (e.g., Ted Bloecher), heretofore only >correspondents and names. I became a regular for a number of >years before deciding that aside from socializing with some >like-minded colleagues (and trying to stay out of the way of the >usual nuts and bores), the exercise was a waste of time and >money. Today, I attend conferences only if I am asked to speak >and my expenses are covered, and even that has been a while. I >guess by now I have a reputation for being unsocialized. >On the other hand, there is the occasional small, invitation- >only conference, focused on serious research issues and >individuals of proved accomplishment, analytical ability, and >critical acuity. Over the years I have participated in several >of them and found them intellectually stimulating and >informative. They have little in common, however, with the >standard anything-and-everything-goes UFO confab. >Mostly, I've found that the most memorable and entertaining >conversations at your standard confab happen in the bar. It is a >great bother and expense, however, to travel all that way for a >few drinks and congenial company. At least John doesn't have to >travel far for such. What we need is a virtual bar on the internet, and then we could really accomplish something. I agree with John and Jerry that the sort of wide open, often rather wild-eyed and undisciplined conferences that we see today are essentially worthless for anything other than socializing. Jerry and I met for the first time a few years ago in Chicago during the founding meeting of the Sign Historical Group. In the evening we ran into each other in the hotel bar, enjoyed martinis, swapped yarns, discovered a number of shared interests and generally had a good time. After a while we were joined by Wendy Connors and Michael Hall (no relation). One of the best
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Ledger From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:56:02 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:25:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars - Ledger >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:19:12 -0300 >Subject: Re: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:38 EDT >>Subject: Humans May Have Put Life On Mars >>NASA: Life On Mars! aka We Screwed Up! >>----- >>Source: The Scottish Daily Record - Glasgow >>Jul 18 2005 >>http://tinyurl.com/9oy7j >>Martian Mix-Up >>Jul 18 2005 >>Scientists believe humans may have put life on Mars. >>The US space agency NASA believe two space craft that >>landed on >>the planet last year may have carried bacteria from Earth. >>The vehicles were designed to find existing signs of life. >>But after finding traces of bacteria in a chamber used to test >>the craft, NASA now think microbes survived the journey to >>Mars >Turn about is fair play, Greg. >First, maybe the bacteria is going back to where it came from, >just to be cheeky. >Also, this could comlicate the quest for life on Mars. Mark my >words, if life is uncovered there will be much doubt expressed >as to whether it's home-grown Martian life, or Earth >contamination. That's funny Don Ledger! It's a shame that so many people still think God is lazy enough to only populate one world. Some people just have 'Celestial Sibling Rivalry' I figure. They just can't stand the idea that God's got other children that are smarter than us, sometimes prettier and sometimes not so prettier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Two Groups - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:00:12 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:26:50 -0400 Subject: Re: The Two Groups - Ledger >From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:43:35 -0400 >Subject: The Two Groups >Group A wants to observe from a distance, measure, analyze, >deduce. Group A puts stock in documents, photographs, radar, >recorded testimony. Group A posits an ever receding future in >which the truth may eventually become known through ever greater >degrees of scientific asceticism. >Group B wants to know face to face, experience deeply, >transform. Group B puts stock in direct experience, contact, >transcendence. Group B believes it is all happening now, and it >is time to dive into the depths. >Group A thinks Group B is batty. Group B thinks Group A is >fearful and narrow-minded. >Yet another manifestation of the Apollo/Dionysus archetypal >dichotomy. >Meanwhile, the Phenomena giggles at us, as it always has.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:41:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:28:40 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:26:29 -0400 >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >It is amusing to note that, whereas Gasser made it clear that >the AF took saucer sightings seriously and considered the Soviet >development as a possibility, other parts of AF intel considered >it highly unlikely that the USSR could have made such a huge >jump in technology as to fly atomic powered saucers over the USA >with impunity, even given the possible "head start" achieved by >capturing the Nazi/Horton disc technology. Bruce But what is particularly interesting is that in the 1949 document that I cited, Gasser stated unequivocally that "scientists have, _for many years_, been attempting to develop this type of aircraft..." And that: "Some experimentation has been done even _in the United States_, but insofar as is known in the United States, at the present time, there have never been any practical developments." So Gasser knew that something had been worked on in the US prior to 1949. But that nothing practical had really been achieved. This goes along exactly with what the people I interviewed said: that research had been undertaken, that rudimentary atomic research had been undertaken that was of interest to NEPA, but that real breakthroughs were years and maybe decades away (as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:03:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:31:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:29:09 +0200 >Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Nick, >I repeat: you have not answered the precise questions of Robert >Durant. The reason is simple: such aircrafts did not exist. Gildas, I am glad that in your world everything is so black and white and precise. For the rest of us mere mortals, it seldom is. And that goes for the "official" story/history on numerous things, never mind just UFOs. Do you recall - a classic example - the story about the CIA's mind-control files (that Stan often cites) about how there was a denial of material, documents couldn't be found, then things began to surface, and more began to surface, and then even more surfaced - to the point where there were thousands of pages far in excess of what had previously been expected. In other words, when research began to try and get this material, not only wasn't it available but there was an official denial it existed. Persistence, however, showed that to be wrong. Another example that is directly related to UFOs: for years in the UK it was rumored that UFO investigations were undertaken by the Royal Air Force's Provost & Security Services who from 1997 to 1998 were stationed at a base called RAF Rudloe Manor in Wiltshire, UK. For years, the skeptics and the official world stated that there was no truth to this - it was rumor, it was folklore, etc. Not unlike your claims re Nazi technology. Then I found at the National Archive in Kew (formerly the Public Record Office) an official file that confirmed investigations by the P&SS (that file late vanished for a while from the shelves of the Archive under very odd circumstances - but that's another story for another day). Skeptics and the official world claimed this was a single incident, never repeated. But it wasn't: I found another example... and another. The official world then changed its position and said, "Well, okay the P&SS _did_ have some involvement but it was only to coordinate reports and to send them to the Ministry of Defense at Whitehall." However, _none_ of the files I found make any reference to "co-ordination." Rather, _everyone_ of them is an example of where the P&SS had actually sent personnel out to the homes of members of the public who had claimed to have seen UFOs and investigated the reports for themselves. So my point is this: life is seldom black and white. Things change. New data surfaces. New revelations appear. You believe that a UFO crashed at Roswell. As this is disputed by the official story, then therefore you have to dispute the official story for your Roswell beliefs to work. So, _again_ as per previous posts - why is that you _support_ the official history when it goes against what I say, but you _deny_ the official story to support your Roswell beliefs?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 UFO Sightings In Miami? From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:22:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:33:39 -0400 Subject: UFO Sightings In Miami? In case anyone is willing to assist: ----- From: "Fang, Serene (NBC Universal)" <Serene.Fang.nul> To: "'webmaster.nul'" <webmaster.nul> Subject: ufo sightings in miami Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:13 -0400 To whom it may concern, I am writing to you from Dateline NBC, a television program based in NY. I'm trying to locate individuals who have studied or have witnessed UFO sightings off the coast of the Miami area. If you could help me with any information, I would appreciate it. Thank you, Serene Fang Dateline NBC 212-664-6102 ----- John Hayes webmaster.nul UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: 30 Year UFO Collection For Sale - Mantle From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:31:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:38:30 -0400 Subject: Re: 30 Year UFO Collection For Sale - Mantle >From: Perry Petrakis <perry.petrakis.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:38:50 +0200 >Subject: 30 Year UFO Collection For Sale >For Sale >Impressive UFO collection (30 years of Archives) from the former >French SOS OVNI UFO Organization for sale. <snip> Hi Perry, Sorry to hear that you are selling your UFO collection. Could you contact me off-List please I might be interested in buying some of your material. Many thanks,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:32:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:04:51 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Another angle of the question is: why would the >Roswell base have issued the famous press release if they had >only found a crashed aircraft with dead Japanese? The obvious >answer is: they did not. I actually have far more on the 'whys' of the press release, which I am preparing for List and that will be complete by next week. >The question of the UFO is completely different. In that case, >there are dozens of well identified, credible witnesses. Okay, Gildas, please tell me who you think is credible in terms of making _specific_ claims about seeing _alien_ bodies at Roswell? I don't want any response from you that talks about vague references to "little men" or "creatures" (because both phrases are open to interpretation; and "little men" could go along with the theory in my book and "creatures" could be a reference to Rhesus Monkeys, chimps, or who knows what). What I want from you is to tell me and the List who is credible when it comes to talking about - unequivocally and specifically - alien bodies at Roswell. Just people _who were there_ and saw the bodies and concluded they were alien. >No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an >established fact. I never claimed this. Again, you haven't read closely: the interviewees said that this was Japanese but that the Japanese designs were extremely similar to the Horten devices. On page 110, the Colonel states that the Japanese device was "pretty similar to the Horten vehicles." Again, read the book and you'll see that practically everyone stated that the object was Horten- like, Horten-inspired, but _not_ built by the Hortens. On page 111, the Colonel states: "...we have a device based on the Horten work that is _extremely_ similar to the Japanese aircraft. In fact, some of the White Sands people thought that it was so close that there had been some German collusion on all this with the Japs, but that was never proven..." >On the other hand, yes, there is a resemblance >between some UFO sightings - Arnold, Phoenix photograph - and >descriptions of the Roswell craft by witnesses (Rickett, >Gonzales and others) Yes, exactly, there _is_ a resemblance. >You know, there were fighters on alert during the week-end of >July 4. Flying disks were taken seriously. Yes and did you know that when the Fugo Balloons were launched against the US in 1944-1945, there was a whole operation in place called "Project Sunset." This was a project involving US military fighter planes, whose job it was to fly intercept missions and shoot down the balloons. So, in other words, just because fighter planes were present does not mean that the objects they were trying to hit were not balloons. The WW2 experience shows that a whole project was definitely in place to intercept and shoot down balloons. And this was only 2 to 3 years before Roswell. Now, someone might ask, why would orders be made to shoot down classified US vehicles? That is a good point, and we need to do further research on this to determine if there were people involved in that were out of the loop re the Roswell events and what was happening in NM. But the argument that the presence of fighter planes to intercept Disks in 1947 means they couldn't have been balloons, does not work because of the earlier Project Sunset example: the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Secrecy News -- 07/19/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:40:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:06:37 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/19/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 66 July 19, 2005 ** "SENSITIVE" INFO IN DISPUTE IN US-MEXICO BORDER COMMISSION ** UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURES AND THE ROVE MATTER ** COURT UPHOLDS PERMANENT PDB SECRECY ** JUSTICE O'CONNOR AND OPEN GOVERNMENT "SENSITIVE" INFO IN DISPUTE IN US-MEXICO BORDER COMMISSION An intense and dramatic dispute over the performance of a Texas- based U.S. government commission illustrates how an agency may seek to evade controversy by increasing secrecy, as well as the ability of highly motivated critics to penetrate such secrecy and to broadcast their concerns using the internet. Battered by critics from within and without, the head of the little-known International Boundary and Water Commission (IBWC) in El Paso, Texas issued a directive this month calling for improved protection of "sensitive" agency information. The July 8 directive, which itself was not supposed to be disclosed, was promptly published on a web page devoted to criticism of the Commission. "Established in 1889, the International Boundary and Water Commission (IBWC) has responsibility for applying the boundary and water treaties between the United States and Mexico and settling differences that may arise out of these treaties," according to the Commission web site. But "In the short time that the IBWC has been under the control of Commissioner [Arturo] Duran, it has been decimated of talent and institutional knowledge and memory, and transformed into a nearly dysfunctional organization wracked by fear and abuse," according to the anonymous critics' web site. A U.S. State Department Inspector General report earlier this year confirmed that "management actions have undermined the morale of the agency, led to an alarming departure of key personnel, and raised fundamental questions about the lack of U.S. government oversight of the IBWC." In a move perceived by the critics as an attempt to stifle mounting public criticism, the IBWC issued an agency-wide directive this month on protecting "sensitive" information. Key excerpts from the directive, acerbically annotated by the agency critics, may be found here: http://www.ibwcanonymous.org/documents/sens.pdf The full directive (without critical commentary) is available here: http://www.ibwcanonymous.org/documents/sensfull.pdf The web site of the International Boundary and Water Commission is here: http://www.ibwc.state.gov/ And the anonymous critics' page is here: http://www.ibwcanonymous.org/index.htm UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURES AND THE ROVE MATTER The unfolding controversy over the role of White House adviser Karl Rove in disclosing the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame has inspired new attention to the details of official policy on disclosures of classified information. Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) noted astutely that under the terms of the standard classified information nondisclosure agreement, officials are not supposed to confirm the accuracy of classified information even when it is obtained from a public source such as a journalist. Rep. Waxman reiterated this point yesterday in a letter to President Bush: http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20050718141158- 33939.pdf Meanwhile, the subjective character of classification policy was highlighted as Democrats turned ostentatiously hawkish on leaks while Republicans all but dismissed the public identification of a covered CIA officer as insignificant. See "Political Parties Reverse Roles in Debate Over CIA Leak" by Josh Gerstein, New York Sun, July 18: http://www.nysun.com/article/17134 A Knight-Ridder news story noted that under the prevailing executive order, "appropriate and prompt corrective" administrative action is supposed to be taken against any U.S. government official who "knowingly, willfully or negligently" discloses classified information. But "a White House spokesman declined to respond to questions about the executive order." See "Bush says he'll fire any aide who committed a crime in leak case" by Jonathan S. Landay, Knight-Ridder Newspapers, July 18: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12163624.htm COURT UPHOLDS PERMANENT PDB SECRECY A federal judge last week accepted the Central Intelligence Agency's contention that the President's Daily Brief (PDB) is itself an "intelligence method" that is exempt from disclosure no matter how old it is and despite the fact that other PDBs have been declassified and disclosed without adverse effect. The decision is a disappointment for historians and others who looked to the courts to impose restraint and rationality on CIA's indiscriminate secrecy practices. For complete background, see "Judge Grants Immortality to Presidential Privilege" from the National Security Archive here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/pdbnews/index.htm JUSTICE O'CONNOR AND OPEN GOVERNMENT It has not been widely recognized that retiring Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was an effective proponent of open government. In one 1993 case, Justice O'Connor did what many lower court judges now seem unwilling or unable to do: She rejected a sweeping assertion of secrecy by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and insisted on a more measured approach. "The Government would have us presume that virtually every [law enforcement] source is confidential," Justice O'Connor noted. "Although we recognize that confidentiality often will be important to the FBI's investigative efforts, we cannot say that the Government's sweeping presumption comports with 'common sense and probability'," she wrote for the majority in U.S. Dept of Justice v. Landano (1993). Instead of a blanket presumption of secrecy, the court ruled, the government was obliged to justify each proposed exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act. The application of "common sense and probability" to secrecy policy remains a radical innovation. For a tribute to Justice O'Connor, including reference to the Landano case, see "Sandra Day O'Connor's Legacy" from the Electronic Privacy Information Center: http://www.epic.org/privacy/justices/oconnor/ _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 The Acronym 'UFO' From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:12:59 -0400 Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' http://scoopjupiter.blogspot.com/2005/07/acronym-ufo.html There has much discussed lately about the path of Ufology and how difficult it is to garner serious study from mainstream science. I just wonder sometimes if it isn't the acronym "UFO" itself that is always putting people off of the subject. If you ask someone if they believe in UFOs I can guarantee that the extreme majority will instantly think you are asking if they believe in alien spaceships. I think that maybe it's time to try to retire that word. All serious researchers know that the acronym merely means "Unidentified Flying Objects" but they also know that a very large percentage of these "objects" aren't necessarily objects at all (refracted/reflected light?) or may not even be "flying" (Venus?). I propose using one that has been being used by NARCAP for a long time now. Namely "UAP" or "Unidentified Aerial Phenomena". This is a seemingly catch-all phrase that seems, at least to me, more innocuous then the largely misunderstood "UFO".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 UFO Conferences [was: Toronto Hosts UFO From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:00:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:17:33 -0400 Subject: UFO Conferences [was: Toronto Hosts UFO >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:39 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad >>way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I >>suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. I >>have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine research >>at any of them. This sort of communication is generally more >>effective through publication in magazines and journals and >>nowadays through the Internet. >>Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise >>that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like Dr >>Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can suspend >>their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts of weird >>and exotic excitements before returning to their dull, everyday >>lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just don't pretend >>there's anything particularly serious or scientific about them. >>They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but >>ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. >I am inclined to agree with the above, with one qualification. >Basically, John is expressing a conclusion much like my own. I >attended my first UFO conference, a MUFON convention, in Iowa in >1975. It was thrilling because I got to meet all sorts of >people, including heroes (e.g., Ted Bloecher), heretofore only >correspondents and names. I became a regular for a number of >years before deciding that aside from socializing with some >like-minded colleagues (and trying to stay out of the way of the >usual nuts and bores), the exercise was a waste of time and >money. Today, I attend conferences only if I am asked to speak >and my expenses are covered, and even that has been a while. I >guess by now I have a reputation for being unsocialized. >On the other hand, there is the occasional small, invitation- >only conference, focused on serious research issues and >individuals of proved accomplishment, analytical ability, and >critical acuity. Over the years I have participated in several >of them and found them intellectually stimulating and >informative. They have little in common, however, with the >standard anything-and-everything-goes UFO confab. >Mostly, I've found that the most memorable and entertaining >conversations at your standard confab happen in the bar. It is a >great bother and expense, however, to travel all that way for a >few drinks and congenial company. At least John doesn't have to >travel far for such. John Rimmer Agrees With Jerry Clark - Shock Horror! Yes, I would exempt the sort of private, invitation only,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:02:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:00:34 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:59:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Nick, >In your theory of Horten developments, alleged Nazi saucers, >postwar aircraft, nuclear experiments, and balloons could you >have made a critical error in failing to consult with the >experts at the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space >Museum and the experts at the United States Air Force Museum? If >you did not consult with them and reviewed their voluminous >archives I think that was a major flaw in researching your >theories. Josh, Yes, and coincidentally, this is all part of a follow-up book/report I'm working on that puts into full perspective the huge amount of data that did not appear in Body Snatchers because of space limitations more than anything else, and that includes the 9 or 10 trips I made to the archives, as well as correspondence with the archives. It will also include the way in which the witnesses were interviewed, the very cloak-and-dagger circumstances under which the interviews were conducted (that a few people on this List actually do know the history of), which doesn't appear to great extent in the book, such as having to drive to a regular restuarant on I-35, Waco, Texas, to do some of the interviews. Plus it will cover all the new material that has come in during the month since publication. Plus, there are behind the scenes things going on in the official world that I have alluded to and when I can discuss that on-List, I will. I had some very intriguing conversations with archivists at certain places not just about files that were available, but interestingly certain gaps in files, etc., from critical time periods in this story. I will also be including the highly interesting and amusing story of the archivist who did his best to prevent me accessing the files of his archive after I admitted to him what I was looking for - with hindsight that was probably a mistake on my part to reveal that to him! I want to stress too, on your observation, Josh, this is not technically _my_ 'theory'. It was provided to me by people whose former military and Government credentials check out with 100 per cent certainty. Now, of course I had to check their claims (and still am - this is very much an on-going thing), but this is _their_ information. I am just the messenger. So it's not my theory as such. That might seem a minor point, but I think it's important to stress that personally I have no vested interest or reason to promote this theory as 'my theory'. It certainly does me no favors at all to - pun intended - "alienate" myself from the UFO community. I speak at a lot of gigs and conferences and write for various magazines. That being so, why would I turn myself into Public Enemy Number 1 with some of these people (as is happening I might add in certain quarters!)? The answer, of course, is that I have _no_ vested interest in promoting a theory to make me unpopular. But I do have a vested interest in a search for the truth. And when you or me or anyone is provided data that may not accord with what we previously believed, then the onus is on us to investigate it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:32:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:05:59 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >You know, there were fighters on alert during the week-end of >July 4. Flying disks were taken seriously. And on this point too, I never claimed that discs were not taken seriously. What I said was that with barely a little more than a week of data to work with (rather than the almost 60 years we have now), there was no way to know that saucers weren't made of balloon- like materials. Remember too that only 2 years before Roswell, other strange aerial devices were flying over the US. They were called Fugos...and they were balloons... and the military was involved in investigating these balloons... with aircraft. Just as in summer 47. Therefore, although I cannot of course prove the following, I would bet that some of those 1947 pilots on stand-by, because of the discs, recalled (even if they weren't involved) the events of 2 years previously when their colleagues were trying to intercept and shoot down strange devices that were identified as Fugo balloons. With that thought/recollection potentially in their minds, the 1947 pilots would have been receptive to the idea that perhaps the discs - of only 2 years later remember - were some sort of Balloon, too. Hence the reason why this may have created a mindset in the key period of Summer 47 that discs had a balloon connection - and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:57:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:09:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:31:16 -1000 >Subject: Re: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:51:31 -0700 >>Subject: Two French Reports On Eric Julien/Jean Ederman >>Eric Julien/Jean Ederman was reportedly piloting an alien space >>ship when he disappeared for awhile (so it is claimed). I was >>given these two reports that were based on investigations of >>this claim. Unfortunately, they are in French. But, I'm sure >>some list members will be able to read them! >>Julien/Ederman reportedly was discovered NOT to be actualizing >>his pilot training on an alien ship, but instead had returned to >>his old home on French Reunion Island. He reportedly emailed his >>girlfriend from there in order to end a police investigation >>into his disappearance. >>http://www.ovni.ch/guest/mtdb.htm >>http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_fr/m_news/imposture.htm >Aloha Mike >Thanks for giving Eric Julien (aka Jean Ederman) the opportunity >to respond to the two reports circulated on the forum which are >critical of various aspects of his claimed extraterrestrial >experiences. I sent your post to him and include his response >below. Let me add that Eric Julien has written a very detailed >book explaining the scientific basis of the extraterrestrial >technologies he claims to have learned about through his various >experiences. A number of promient French researchers/scientists >have reviewed his book and thought very highly of it, and >concluded that it is not a plagiarised work which was one of the >intitial criticisms leveled against him. I have read one of >these critiques and it is clear that the author who was >initially very sceptical was impressed by Eric's work. >I think that an objective standard for assessing Eric's claims >of direct experience with extraterrestrial technologies is to >analyse the written material and detailed diagrams he has >provided of these. I think that those interested in Eric's >claims regarding the "Science of Extraterrestrials" can begin by >reading his book in the original French (an English translation >is underway); or by reading some of his shorter articles and the >reviews of this book (some translated into English) which are >available at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute- >EricJulien-home.htm . >I would recommend to you that you read his work or objective >reviews of it, and reach your own independent assessment of the >value of Eric's work rather than point to second hand sources >that appear prejudiced for reasons that Eric describes in his >response. I've read the material at that page, Michael. For the record, I have a first hand source. (Someone from France who knows him.) I haven't reported _all_ the various things that person has communicated to me. (Nothing in the reports I shared contradict what that person reports.) In any event, all this is more out there on the record. People
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 The Question Of Exopolitics From: Vince White <Vinceomni.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:13 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:12:34 -0400 Subject: The Question Of Exopolitics Listers; A well known UFO lecturer stated on a radio show that he knew of three individuals who had seen film footage of a landing & meeting at Holloman AFB - that's exopolitics. This same researcher knew of Air Force Base radio exchanges with UFOs, more exopolitics. A disclosure project witness states he knows of active ET liaison with the USSC - certainly an exopolitical claim. Exopolitics will not go away, it will loom larger and larger.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: UFO Conferences - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:41:13 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:01:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Conferences - Miller >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:43:29 +0100 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:54 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:16:10 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 <snip> >Hmmm. 'Organises' is a bit strong. I simply announce that I >will be in a particular pub at a particular time (The Railway, >Putney, SW London, at about 19:30hrs on the first Sunday of >each month, if anyone's interested) and if people would like >to come along for a drink and a chat, they are welcome. >Amazingly, some do, When the Gods call John.................... >>You're right John. There should be no interaction, no >>socialising, no communicating, no exposure to new ideas or >>new research. Ufolgists should remain in their homes, >isolated from everything else, just err working? >The problem is that the average 'UFO Conference' is a very bad >way of doing any of the above things, except socialising, I >suppose. I've run a couple, spoken at some, and attended more. >I have seldom found any exposure to new ideas or genuine >research at any of them. This sort of communication is >generally more effective through publication in magazines and >journals and nowadays through the Internet. >Conferences are fine for socialising, so long as you realise >that is all they are good for. UFO conferences are more like >Dr Who or Star Trek conventions, where enthusiasts can >suspend their disbelief for a day or two, and enjoy all sorts >of weird and exotic excitements before returning to their >dull, everyday lives as, err, librarians, for example. Just >don't pretend there's anything particularly serious or >scientific about them. >They can be a laugh, and a good way of meeting people, but >ufology would be little worse off if they faded away. I'm afraid I disagree. All I can say is, my experiences are different. Maybe it's to do with "time on the job". Maybe you and Jerry have been to a lot more than I have and perhaps, after a while, I'll feel the same as you. I hope not though. >>Response 2 >>You're quite right John. Then the snake oil salesmen and >>assorted con artists would be deprived of earning a living >>and taking money off the poor, gullible public. So, when are >>you going to stop publishing Magonia then?. Sorry. That last >remark should have gone in the first reply. >I think the only person who seems to make a living (however >meagre) out of UFO conferences is Stanton Friedman. I think >you owe him an apology! Stan is independantly wealthy and appears at Conferences out of the kindness of his heart. >BTW, thanks for your renewal subscription last week! Actually, it was the week before but nevertheless, this is outrageous! Subscription data is private. I'm off to Sue, Grabbit etc. for slander on the basis that my reputation is ruined now that everyone knows I read a sceptical periodical. Also, Alfred will never forgive me. Though I must say, it's much better these days now that you've decided to become more honest and have moved to a more central
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Subscribe To Australian Magazines From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:06:53 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:18:40 -0400 Subject: Subscribe To Australian Magazines Hi Folks A short note keeping you informed. I'm always being asked, "How do I get your magazine?" Well Robert and I have now made it easy for all to get a subscription. All you have to do is go to: http://www.Isubscribe.com.au Type 'UFO' into search engine, or the name of the magazine and subscribe over the internet, making it convenient and easy to obtain. Isubscribe is one of the most popular magazine subscription web sites in Australia. AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST MAGAZINE The Australasian Ufologist Magazine explores fringe subjects such as UFOs, Unexplained Phenomena, the Paranormal, Crop Circles and New Sciences from Australia, New Zealand and overseas. This is achieved by contributions from some of the most informed and highly experienced researchers and scientists in Australia and abroad. HARD EVIDENCE MAGAZINE Hard Evidence Magazine is a controversial and hard hitting publication that deals with subjects the main stream media won't or don't tackle. Subjects such as the New World Order, Government Coverups, New Technology, Secret Societies, Alternative Medicine, Human Rights and much, much more. Diane Harrison/Frola Editor Hard Evidence Magazine Co Editor The Australasian UFOlogist Magazine.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:40:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:28:06 -0400 Subject: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs List: I want to draw your attention to the fact that even the FBI drew a parallel between the investigation of UFOs in the summer of 1947 and the Japanese Balloon wave of a few years earlier. The document quoted below shows that in the period of summer 1947 there was a 'mindset' that suggested disc sightings were not unlike the Japanese Fugo balloon sightings and investigations of a couple of years earlier. As per my previous posts, this demonstrates why - possibly - some people in the official world (even perhaps at the Roswell Army Air Field) made a psychological association between discs and balloons in the early period of summer 1947 and why they might have thought the 2 were connected (hence the Roswell Press Release). The following is extracted from a 1947 FBI document: "It is felt that the situation regarding these flying saucers and flying disks is very similar to the situation which was previously encountered by the Bureau during the past war in handling complaints arising out of the sightings of Japanese balloons. You will recall that at the inception of these complaints the Bureau conducted considerable investigation and located numerous balloons as a cooperative measure for the Army then informed that these were military weapons and that they would take over the handling of these completely. This they did and in an extremely short time issued a big press release as to the splendid work of the Army in locating these Japanese balloons. From the information available thus far it does not appear that these disks should be treated other than as a military weapon. Certainly the Bureau has no way to determine what experiments the Army and Navy are conducting and whether such might be arising out of experiments being conducted by them, nor do we have any way of determining how far the Russians have progressed in certain experiments and whether such might be the results of experiments by the Russian Army." So, the FBI drew a parallel between investigations into discs in 1947 with investigations into Japanese Fugo Balloons in 1944/45. And, based on their previous experience with the Japanese balloons, the FBI stated that: "From the information available thus far it does not appear that these discs should be treated other than as a military weapon." In other words, the FBI felt that disks were a military weapon and the line of thinking in official circles was that they should be treated - at an investigative level - in a similar way that the Japanese Fugo Balloons were investigated. That, in official quarters, people were seeing parallels between the Japanese Balloon saga of 1945 and the disc wave of only 2 years later, again reinforces why some people in the official world might have been inclined to think that disks were balloon- like and that balloon debris might be from a disc - because these parallels and ideas were already circulating. What we need to do is focus perhaps less on the reports, but on what was going through the minds of the official world when disc sightings began in the summer of '47. Were they perceiving these things as alien spaceships? For the most part: No. Were they drawing parallels between the Japanese balloon raids of 2 years previously? Yes. Official files - such as the FBI document above - reflect that attitude. As this FBI document shows, from the very beginning parallels were being drawn up in the official world between Japanese balloon based operations of 1944-5 with what was happening with disc reports in 1947. And if people in the official world were seeing/investigating unusual balloons from Japan in 1944/1945, then those same people might apply - as the FBI certainly did - the same line of thinking to what was being seen in 1947. Hence the circulating idea that perhaps discs were constructed upon balloon principles, or were at least inter-linked with all this somehow. That actually makes it much easier to understand why the people at Roswell - after finding a huge field of balloon debris - might have assumed there was a disc connection, (or far more importantly than a connection - a parallel) to balloon debris. That thought/connection/parallel was already floating around
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:17:35 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:32:09 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - Boone >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:00:58 -0500 >Subject: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org >There's a recent article by one Bruce Bower at the hijacked >mainstream's 'science'-shill 'ScienceSnooze.org' site. It >raises, yet again, that tired old fable of "Sleep Paralysis" as >the bee's knees explanation for an abduction phenomenon >steadfastly refusing to go away, still... hence Bower's re- >raising of the tedious "Sleep Paralysis" canard, at all... it >would seem. >http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp <snip> I thought that abduction researchers like Budd Hopkins stated that some abductions ocurred while the subjects were wide awake. That some subjects were doing regular daytime chores. So why are these people still pushing this sleep paralysis nonsense? Grasping at straws I guess.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - Bueche From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:35:27 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - Bueche >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:00:58 -0500 >Subject: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org <snip> >http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp >Susan Clancy? Didn't she just open her mouth, insert her foot, >and then echo her abundant cluelessness... her_sullen_ >ignorance and _uninformed_ intransigence... all over the >known universe via the Larry King show? _This_ was a quality >reference? Everyone has a right to some press when one has a book coming out, and Harvard psychologist Susan Clancy's book is due out in about three months. Coming from Harvard University Press in October, her book bears a title that will sound very familiar - "Abducted". Yep, I told you it would sound familiar. Harvard researcher studies aliens, take two. Clancy's absolutely heartless use of the late Harvard psychiatrist John Mack's title (changed from "Abduction" to "Abducted") upset me a bit, and made me wonder if it reveals something symptomatic of people like her: Does she simply not care about other people? That she disregards people's direct experience in favor of her own theories is of course what her book will chronicle. Is it that same disregard for people that lets her use someone else's title like that without even aware what bad taste it is in? In short, eew. Her book may at least be a quick read, as advance word is it comes in at about 190 pages. I'm sure that must be in error.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:56:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:42:41 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Ledger >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>To: UFO UpDates - >Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>Date: Tue, 19 Jul >2005 12:29:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: Re: More >Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>To: >><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 >>16:39:11 +0200 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body >>Snatchers' >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>To: >>><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 >>>14:05:59 -0700 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body >>>Snatchers' ><snip> >>>There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you >>>taken a look at some of the Horten designs and then >>>compared them with drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth >>>Arnold? If not, I suggest that you do. Quickly. >>No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an >>established fact. On the other hand, yes, there is a >>resemblance between some UFO sightings - Arnold, Phoenix >>photograph - and descriptions of the Roswell craft by >>witnesses (Rickett, Gonzales and others) ><snip> >Although I agree with you; Stanton Friedman (see his book >review of 'Body Snatchers in the Desert' in the June-July >issue of 'UFO Magazine'); Dave Furlotte (listen to his >'Strange Days... Indeed' UFO radio show commentary, July 10) >and many others that Nick Redfern's thesis on the truth behind >the 1947 Roswell UFO crash is not supported by the known >facts, we must remember that there were many thousands working >in and around Roswell on secret projects at the time (some of >them probably still classified) so there could be many other >possible Roswell UFO crash scenarios. >That said, your claim that "No Horten planes have ever been >built in the US. It's an established fact." is not totally >correct... >Last October I visited the new Smithsonian Air and Space >Museum (Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center) outside Washington, D.C. >in Virginia where I encountered many unexpected sights such as >a German rocket powered jet bomber, Rocket powered only. >a manned Japanese jet powered flying bomb Short duration pulse-jet only, not a turbine powered jet. It was used only long enough to get the bomb and its pilot to the vessel. (not unlike the German V-1) a slow jet powered aircraft at best. Spitfires and P-51s, etc. could catch it and tip it's stubby wings to bank it away from it's intended course. >What I also >saw and took pictures of was an American built flying wing >just like the ones the Horten brothers built and flew. Not for very long. They were 1/3rd scale prop driven prototypes with a couple of 65 hp Lycoming reciprocating engines. The J-3 Piper Cub used one of these egines. Then they went on to the 120 hp franlin engines, still with props as his was in the early 40s. The first jet powered Northrup Flying Wing, the YB-49 flew on October 21, 1947. Chuck broke the sound barrier one week before on October 14, 1947.A second was built and crashed when it broke up. The flying wing was dumped in favor of the Covair's B-36. None of the present day flying winged B-2s are supersonic let alone Mach 2 capable. >Since I cannot >share these pictures via the UFO UpDates list, below is a web >site which has a picture of this pre-1947 flying wing - which >has a notable German connection too. Unfortuately both the >Army Air Force and Northrop records of this flying wing's >initial tests (which was sometimes towed to high altitudes) in >the 1940s have been lost! >http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/northN1M.htm Hi Nick, How did you convert a Northrup into a Horton? There were no Horton's built in the states. The two copies they had, an incomplete single engine jet powered HO X and the Gotha produced GO 229-the production version of the HO IX V2-that was completed but never flown they transported to the United States from Germany. Naturally there will be those who come out of the woodwork who will now claim that this one copy was reproduced, it's speed increased to Mach 2 and then flown in front of Ken Arnold so he could start the whole "flying saucer" craze. In the mean time the Air Force went ahead and continued to drop Chuck Yeager out of B-29s day after day for weeks [forget what you saw in the movie] until one day he pushed the Bell X1 over Mach 1 as planned on the ground. Then the Air Force kept that secret while they flew the Hortens in front of Ken Arnold months before. This continuing BS about the Horton Flying wing as somehow explaining away UFO sightings is a waste of time. The Horton wasn't much faster than many of the prop driven aircraft of the time and less effective than the ME 262. Look at the wing on the aircraft, the thickness. Pure drag in order to house the engines, the pilot and the engineered box configuration inside the wing to handle the lift loads. The HO IX V2 crashed and burned two hours into it's first flight after one of its two turbojets failed. The HO IX VI was flown as a glider test vehicle. The reason for flying wings is to get rid of the wingspar and the appendages that created drag. I just can't be bothered getting into this Horton nonsense. My Cessna had a Horton STOL kit on its wings which gave me a lower stall speed and an increase in the angle of attack in a power-on climb resulting in a faster rate of climb.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:46:10 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Gottschall >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' >http://scoopjupiter.blogspot.com/2005/07/acronym-ufo.html >There has much discussed lately about the path of Ufology and >how difficult it is to garner serious study from mainstream >science. >I just wonder sometimes if it isn't the acronym "UFO" itself >that is always putting people off of the subject. If you ask >someone if they believe in UFOs I can guarantee that the extreme >majority will instantly think you are asking if they believe in >alien spaceships. >I think that maybe it's time to try to retire that word. >All serious researchers know that the acronym merely means >"Unidentified Flying Objects" but they also know that a very >large percentage of these "objects" aren't necessarily objects >at all (refracted/reflected light?) or may not even be "flying" >(Venus?). >I propose using one that has been being used by NARCAP for a >long time now. Namely "UAP" or "Unidentified Aerial Phenomena". >This is a seemingly catch-all phrase that seems, at least to me, >more innocuous then the largely misunderstood "UFO". >Ufology may not be able to continue in its present course unless >it gets a face-lift. Terry, Of course the term UFO puts people off the subject, the extra-terrestrial subject that is. I absolutely despise the term UFO because it depotentiates the idea of extra-terrestrial life, yet, isn't Ufology focused on the study of all things ET? The term UFO, or UAPs for that matter, leads people to think that unknown objects are unexplained for now but will highly likely be explainable soon, as if someone is misinterpreting a comet or Venus. Of course they can be but often a close, highly detailed sighting will ridiculously be explained away as Venus. So you see, it works against the subject too. Most annoying. Unusual Aerial Phenomena, at least in my mind, seems to include the idea of atmospheric anomalies. Again, not what the extraterrestrial subject is about. I agree. Kick the term UFO out of Ufology but don't replace it with something as equally misleading. What's wrong with Alien or ET anyway? After all that's what it is about, isn't it? Or did I get that wrong after all? Reading some of the posts to this List sometimes I wonder? As for changing the UFO term so as to make it more "palatable" for study by mainstream science, why on Earth should anything be made palatable for those whose encrusted, backward thinking has held this planets evolution back for, well, goodness knows how long? And, I might add, still does in many ways. We owe the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Feindt From: Carl Feindt <waterufo.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:17:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:51:13 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Feindt >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' <snip> >All serious researchers know that the acronym merely means >"Unidentified Flying Objects" <snip> Hello Terry, And I thought it meant Unconventional Flying Objects However in my case it means Underwater or Floating Objects . Makes you wonder where these acronyms are born Best,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Winging It From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:46:14 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:56:08 -0400 Subject: Winging It Source: The Economist - print edition Jul 14th 2005 Winging It The shuttle is soon to return America to human space flight. But it must be grounded quickly to allow for a new generation of vehicles. For two and a half years, America's space agency, NASA, has laboured over modifications to its space shuttle. The need for such work became apparent after the final, and fatal, flight of the shuttle Columbia in February 2003. It was all supposed to come to fruition on Wednesday July 13th, when the shuttle Discovery was to launch from the Kennedy Space Centre in Florida. Instead, it was a day of mishaps. First, a falling window cover damaged two heat-resistant tiles. Then the launch had to be postponed when a problem was discovered with a fuel sensor. It served to underscore that this is less the triumphant flight of a phoenix and more a swan-song. Despite all the time and an estimated $1.5 billion spent on her return, in at most five years (and possibly less) the shuttle will retire. She is expensive, doesn't go anywhere other than low Earth orbit and must be recertified in 2010. Her days are numbered. The efforts of the past 30 months, say those who manage the shuttle, have produced a far safer vehicle. Discovery has a redesigned fuel tank, dozens of new sensors and other modifications (see table). Many of the improvements are designed to reduce the chance of debris striking, or to detect damage when this occurs. Nevertheless, should a puncture be found in the shuttle's thermal protection system during a flight, there are just two alternatives. One is to hole up in the space station and wait for rescue; the other is to use an experimental kit of ablative filler, which will work only on smaller punctures. So why make all this effort if she is to be retired? It is for one reason: to complete the international space station. Many of the station's components were designed to be launched only on the shuttle =97 and NASA has commitments with its international partners to take these to the station. Japan, for example, has an agreement with America whereby its experimental module is to be launched by the shuttle in return for Japanese construction of a centrifuge for the station. Because George Bush is keen for international collaboration on NASA's next grand escapade=97revisiting the moon=97the agency must at least try to keep these partners happy. This is already difficult, because the station has been beset by delays and changes in design and purpose throughout its chequered history. To what extent NASA is able to please everyone will depend on how many more shuttle flights there are. Even if the next few go ahead as planned, NASA will almost certainly fly fewer missions than the 28 it had once hoped for. Current speculation ranges from as few as 12 to as many as 20 flights. At present, it is assumed that these will include a mission to service the Hubble space telescope, although no decision will be made about this until the shuttle has flown again twice. Having fewer shuttle flights than originally expected will spell trouble for some parts of the station and will result in what is euphemistically described as "alternative configurations". But NASA will have to balance what is needed today with what it wants tomorrow. Fewer flights will result in large cost savings (the shuttle absorbs almost a third of NASA's $16 billion annual budget). This money could be spent on accelerating the creation of the shuttle's replacement, the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV). This is much on the mind of Mike Griffin, the agency's new administrator. The CEV is expected to be an Apollo-like craft that will put people into orbit around Earth and allow them either to visit the space station or to be boosted on towards the moon or even, one day, Mars. What would launch this vehicle into orbit? Dr Griffin has dropped hints, most recently in testimony to Congress, that the solution will be solid-fuelled rocket boosters from the current shuttle. Dr Griffin says he wants to "capitalise on the existing technical and workforce assets in a cost-effective and efficient way". In other words, he wants to sack as few staff as possible, something that will no doubt go down well in Texas and Florida, where many NASA workers live. Another aspect of these plans is that Dr Griffin needs a vehicle that will operate as soon as possible after the shuttle has retired and far earlier than 2014, as was once planned. Presumably, the fewer parts that have to be developed from scratch, the less time it will take to build a new vehicle. However, the current version of the 2006 NASA authorisation bill requires the agency to keep the shuttle flying until its replacement vehicle has flown. If this language is not modified, it spells bad news for NASA because the agency will need to run two space-vehicle programmes side by side=97something it does not have the money to do. NASA is currently planning to phase out the shuttle and phase in the CEV. This is likely to mean a gap between one vehicle and the next.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:41:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:59:07 -0400 Subject: Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Kaeser >From: Vince White <Vinceomni.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:13 EDT >Subject: The Question Of Exopolitics >Listers; >A well known UFO lecturer stated on a radio show that he knew of >three individuals who had seen film footage of a landing & >meeting at Holloman AFB - that's exopolitics. Please provide names. I'd like to believe that this was true, but the veracity of the claim must be vetted first. >This same >researcher knew of Air Force Base radio exchanges with UFOs, >more exopolitics. Please provide details. I know a lot of researchers who make claims with little substance. >A disclosure project witness states he knows >of active ET liaison with the USSC - certainly an exopolitical >claim. Exopolitics will not go away, it will loom larger and >larger. There were many disclosure witnesses whose stories have been called into question, with little or no effort to back them up. Anecdotal tales can carry this to a point, but not to a paradigm shift in belief. >Empiricism rules in Ufology. The question is not whether the >next step is exopolitics, rather it is whether exopolitical >analysis will be soundly based and validated. Exopolitics may well be a "next step", but there's no general consensus that contact has been made and a relationship between
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:29:05 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:01:09 -0400 Subject: Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Miller >From: Vince White <Vinceomni.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:13 EDT >Subject: The Question Of Exopolitics >A well known UFO lecturer stated on a radio show that he knew >of three individuals who had seen film footage of a landing & >meeting at Holloman AFB - that's exopolitics. This same >researcher knew of Air Force Base radio exchanges with UFOs, >more exopolitics. A disclosure project witness states he knows >of active ET liaison with the USSC - certainly an exopolitical >claim. Exopolitics will not go away, it will loom larger and >larger. >Empiricism rules in Ufology. The question is not whether the >next step is exopolitics, rather it is whether exopolitical >analysis will be soundly based and validated. Vince, Interesting perspective. But surely the last paragraph is an oxymoron if ever there was one. At the point when Exo becomes "soundly based and validated" it then becomes Ufology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:36:59 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:03:50 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:17:35 EDT >Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:00:58 -0500 >>Subject: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org >>There's a recent article by one Bruce Bower at the hijacked >>mainstream's 'science'-shill 'ScienceSnooze.org' site. It >>raises, yet again, that tired old fable of "Sleep Paralysis" as >>the bee's knees explanation for an abduction phenomenon >>steadfastly refusing to go away, still... hence Bower's re- >>raising of the tedious "Sleep Paralysis" canard, at all... it >>would seem. >>http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp ><snip> >I thought that abduction researchers like Budd Hopkins stated >that some abductions ocurred while the subjects were wide awake. >That some subjects were doing regular daytime chores. >So why are these people still pushing this sleep paralysis >nonsense? >Grasping at straws I guess. The answer is simple. It is a great way to get on Larry King and Peter Jennings and to keep research grants coming. No evidence needed. No field investigations, involving real people. Research by proclamation obviously has benefits for the researcher.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:09:09 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:32:10 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Another angle of the question is: why would the >>Roswell base have issued the famous press release if they had >>only found a crashed aircraft with dead Japanese? The obvious >>answer is: they did not. >I actually have far more on the 'whys' of the press release, >which I am preparing for List and that will be complete by next >week. >>The question of the UFO is completely different. In that case, >>there are dozens of well identified, credible witnesses. >Okay, Gildas, please tell me who you think is credible in terms >of making _specific_ claims about seeing _alien_ bodies at >Roswell? Nick, I am primarily thinking of the debris witnesses, you must be aware of that, but now you want me to talk about the more fragile area of witnesses for the alien bodies. My first reaction is not to enter in such a discussion with you, because you are subtly changing the subject, from your Bbody Snatchers story to the real Roswell case. However, I propose a list of some witnesses for aspects of the Roswell file going beyond the debris field of the Foster ranch, in a short summary. 1) For the existence of a second site, close to Roswell: Lewis Rickett, Chester Barton, deputies of Sherif Wilcox, William Woodie, Frankie Rowe, and an anonymous witness found by Balthaser; 2) for the bodies: the archeologists, Henderson, Rasmussen, Brown, Saunders, Gonzales, Rowe, Tex (maybe), two widows of Roswell soldiers, Brazel (maybe), other indirect witnesses; 3) for the existence of a survivor (maybe): Wilcox, Rowe, Musser, Montoya, Tex, Robbins, the anonymous witness of Balthaser; 4) the craft, more or less delta-shaped or horseshoe shaped: Gonzales, Tex, Lewis Rickett, and other indirect witnesses. Now, having fully measured your attitude on Roswell, I have no intention to enter into an endless debate with you about these witnesses. Again, as a closing note from me, if the Air Force officers of Roswell had found a Japanese crew on board a kind of secret plane, they would not have believed that they were Martians, and they would not have issued their famous press release. Had they made such an incredible blunder, nobody would have wished to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:34 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:11:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:03:14 -0700 >Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:29:09 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Robert Durant's Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Nick, >>I repeat: you have not answered the precise questions of Robert >>Durant. The reason is simple: such aircrafts did not exist. >I am glad that in your world everything is so black and white >and precise. For the rest of us mere mortals, it seldom is. And >that goes for the "official" story/history on numerous things, >never mind just UFOs. Nick, I am aware that there are grey areas and shadowy corners, especially in ufology. >So, _again_ as per previous posts - why is that you _support_ >the official history when it goes against what I say, but you >_deny_ the official story to support your Roswell beliefs? Yes, I have no reason to question the aviation history of the time. On the other hand, I see many reasons to put in doubt the balloon stories on Roswell. As for "official" versions, please recall that the GAO did not accept the Mogul explanation, contrary to what some skeptics
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:34:04 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:14:27 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:29:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:11 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:59 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' ><snip> >>>There is no German connection to the 47 wave? Have you taken a >>>look at some of the Horten designs and then compared them with >>>drawings of the objects seen by Kenneth Arnold? If not, I >>>suggest that you do. Quickly. >>No Horten planes have ever been built in the US. It's an >>established fact. On the other hand, yes, there is a resemblance >>between some UFO sightings - Arnold, Phoenix photograph - and >>descriptions of the Roswell craft by witnesses (Rickett, >>Gonzales and others) ><snip> >That said, your claim that "No Horten planes have ever been >built in the US. It's an established fact." is not totally >correct... >Last October I visited the new Smithsonian Air and Space Museum >(Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center) outside Washington, D.C. in >Virginia where I encountered many unexpected sights such as a >German rocket powered jet bomber, a manned Japanese jet powered >flying bomb (not unlike the German V-1) and the UFO mothership >from the movie 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind'. What I also >saw and took pictures of was an American built flying wing just >like the ones the Horten brothers built and flew. Since I cannot >share these pictures via the UFO UpDates list, below is a web >site which has a picture of this pre-1947 flying wing - which >has a notable German connection too. Unfortuately both the Army >Air Force and Northrop records of this flying wing's initial >tests (which was sometimes towed to high altitudes) in the 1940s >have been lost! >http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/northN1M.htm Hi, Nick, It is a Northrop N-1M, with no relation to any Horten model. I have several pictures of the Northrop flying wings of the time. the N-1M, and the N9M-1 which crashed in 1943. In 1944, Northrop developped the jet-propelled XP-79B, with only one prototype built which crashed at Muroc in 1945. Another Northrop project was the flying bomb MX-543, inspired from the German V-1, during the same period. The tests were disastrous, according to aviation history books. Next came the famous XB-35. These are not mysterious crafts. As for the Horten, yes, there was actually a model which flew in the US. It was a small glider, the Horten IV, which was tested by the British, who in turn sold it to a private owner in the United States. Later, the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz flew it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:42:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:16:36 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:17:35 EDT >Subject: Re: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:00:58 -0500 >>Subject: 'Sleep Paralysis' @ ScienceSnooze.Org >>There's a recent article by one Bruce Bower at the hijacked >>mainstream's 'science'-shill 'ScienceSnooze.org' site. It >>raises, yet again, that tired old fable of "Sleep Paralysis" as >>the bee's knees explanation for an abduction phenomenon >>steadfastly refusing to go away, still... hence Bower's re- >>raising of the tedious "Sleep Paralysis" canard, at all... it >>would seem. >>http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp ><snip> >I thought that abduction researchers like Budd Hopkins stated >that some abductions occurred while the subjects were wide awake. >That some subjects were doing regular daytime chores. >So why are these people still pushing this sleep paralysis >nonsense? >Grasping at straws I guess. I think so... and _tiny_ little straws, too, analogous to insufficient testicular girth, or, in far fewer cases, small
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:46:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:20:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Friedman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:40:55 -0700 >Subject: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >List: >I want to draw your attention to the fact that even the FBI drew >a parallel between the investigation of UFOs in the summer of >1947 and the Japanese Balloon wave of a few years earlier. >The document quoted below shows that in the period of summer >1947 there was a 'mindset' that suggested disc sightings were >not unlike the Japanese Fugo balloon sightings and >investigations of a couple of years earlier. >As per my previous posts, this demonstrates why - possibly - >some people in the official world (even perhaps at the Roswell >Army Air Field) made a psychological association between discs >and balloons in the early period of summer 1947 and why they >might have thought the 2 were connected (hence the Roswell Press >Release). >The following is extracted from a 1947 FBI document: >"It is felt that the situation regarding these flying saucers >and flying disks is very similar to the situation which was >previously encountered by the Bureau during the past war in >handling complaints arising out of the sightings of Japanese >balloons. You will recall that at the inception of these >complaints the Bureau conducted considerable investigation and >located numerous balloons as a cooperative measure for the Army >then informed that these were military weapons and that they >would take over the handling of these completely. This they did >and in an extremely short time issued a big press release as to >the splendid work of the Army in locating these Japanese >balloons. From the information available thus far it does not >appear that these disks should be treated other than as a >military weapon. Certainly the Bureau has no way to determine >what experiments the Army and Navy are conducting and whether >such might be arising out of experiments being conducted by >them, nor do we have any way of determining how far the Russians >have progressed in certain experiments and whether such might be >the results of experiments by the Russian Army." >So, the FBI drew a parallel between investigations into discs in >1947 with investigations into Japanese Fugo Balloons in 1944/45. >And, based on their previous experience with the Japanese >balloons, the FBI stated that: >"From the information available thus far it does not appear that >these discs should be treated other than as a military weapon." >In other words, the FBI felt that disks were a military weapon >and the line of thinking in official circles was that they >should be treated - at an investigative level - in a similar way >that the Japanese Fugo Balloons were investigated. >That, in official quarters, people were seeing parallels between >the Japanese Balloon saga of 1945 and the disc wave of only 2 >years later, again reinforces why some people in the official >world might have been inclined to think that disks were balloon- >like and that balloon debris might be from a disc - because >these parallels and ideas were already circulating. >What we need to do is focus perhaps less on the reports, but on >what was going through the minds of the official world when disc >sightings began in the summer of '47. >Were they perceiving these things as alien spaceships? For the >most part: No. >Were they drawing parallels between the Japanese balloon raids >of 2 years previously? Yes. >Official files - such as the FBI document above - reflect that >attitude. >As this FBI document shows, from the very beginning parallels >were being drawn up in the official world between Japanese >balloon based operations of 1944-5 with what was happening with >disc reports in 1947. >And if people in the official world were seeing/investigating >unusual balloons from Japan in 1944/1945, then those same people >might apply - as the FBI certainly did - the same line of >thinking to what was being seen in 1947. Hence the circulating >idea that perhaps discs were constructed upon balloon >principles, or were at least inter-linked with all this somehow. >That actually makes it much easier to understand why the people >at Roswell - after finding a huge field of balloon debris - >might have assumed there was a disc connection, (or far more >importantly than a connection - a parallel) to balloon debris. >That thought/connection/parallel was already floating around >(particularly with the FBI, as we have seen). Nick there is some very good info here. However, I would strenuously object to the notion that the people at Roswell found "a huge field of balloon debris". Nothing described by Jesse Marcel, or Mac Brazel to his neighbors and son, gives an indication of balloon debris. What struck Jesse Marcel is that there was nothing conventional to be found. Balloons were not then made of very strong very thin foil like material. Nothing in the Plains matches balloons either. The I-Beams that couldn't be broken, bent, or burned, don't match balloons. Jesse had taken a course that included work with weather balloons. Brazel had found balloons.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Filer's Files 30 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:46:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:28:37 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files 30 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #30 =96 2005, Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International July 20, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Underwater UFOs This week's files cover: Mars water and dust devils. Underwater UFOs by Bill Hamilton and painting by Roberto Castillo, and UFO propulsion. UFOs were seen over Alabama, California, Florida, Idaho, Missouri, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, and Oklahoma. Many sightings were also reported in Argentina, Canada, Denmark, Mexico and Puerto Rico. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week many represent alien craft. Mars is bright in the morning sky Contrary to previous reports that the Mars will be as big as Earth in the evening sky, Earth and Mars are converging for a close encounter this year on October 30, 2005 at 69 million kilometers. To the unaided eye, Mars will look like a bright red star, a pinprick of light, certainly not as wide as the full Moon. The visual magnitude of Mars will be -2.3. Even inattentive sky watchers will notice it, rising at sundown and soaring overhead at midnight. Water at Martian South Pole Thanks to the European Space Agency=92s Mars Express, we now know that Mars has vast fields of perennial water ice, stretching out from the south pole of the Red Planet. Early attempts at chemical analysis suggested only that the northern cap could be composed of water ice, and the southern cap was thought to be carbon dioxide ice. Recent space missions then suggested that the southern ice cap, existing all year round, could be a mixture of water and carbon dioxide. But only with Mars Express have scientists been able to confirm directly for the first time that water ice is present at the South Pole too. Mars Express made observations with its OMEGA instrument to measure the amounts of sunlight and heat reflected from the Martian polar region. When planetary scientists analyzed the data, it clearly showed that, as well as carbon dioxide ice, water ice was present too. Hundreds of square kilometers of =91permafrost=92 surround the South Pole. Permafrost is water ice, mixed into the soil of Mars, and frozen to the hardness of solid rock by the low Martian temperatures. This is the reason why water ice has been hidden from detection until now - because the soil with which it is mixed cannot reflect light easily and so it appears dark. However, OMEGA looked at the surface with infrared eyes and, being sensitive to heat, clearly picked up the signature of water ice. The discovery hints that perhaps there are much larger quantities of water ice all over Mars than previously thought. The second part comprises steep slopes known as =91scarps=92, made almost entirely of water ice, that fall away from the polar cap to the surrounding plains. The third part was unexpected and encompasses the vast permafrost fields. Thanks to Space.com and ESA. Martian dust devils Martian summer! Finally, the days are long, just like on dear old Earth. And daytime highs rocket all the way up to a balmy 20=B0C (68=B0F) from the summer nighttime low of -90=B0C (-130=B0F), meaning you and your fellow astronauts can warm up your machinery earlier to get a good start on mining operations. [ ]But those warm daytime temperatures also bring alive the Martian dust devils. These monster columns towering kilometers high and hundreds of meters wide, 10 times larger than any tornado on Earth can whip sand and dust around at 70 miles per hour dropped visibility to zero, scouring your faceplate, driving dust into every fold and wrinkle of your spacesuit. The sand in the lower part of a Martian dust devil would be the biggest hazard," The atmospheric pressure on Mars is only 1 percent that at sea level [on Earth], so you wouldn't feel much wind against you. But you'd still be pinged by high-speed material."Moreover, the moving dust and sand may become electrically charged, to the point of "arcing to your spacesuit or vehicle, and creating electromagnetic interference," adds William M. Farrell of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. Thanks to NASA http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/14jul_dustdevils.htm Underwater UFOs Bill Hamilton writes =93What secrets lurk in ocean depths? Are there alien forms of intelligent life that occupy the vast volumes of water that constitute our oceans, seas, and lakes?=94 The largest of our oceans, the Pacific, covers 64,000,000 square miles and reaches a depth of 36,198 feet, a depth that no ray of sunlight ever reaches. Could these depths hide alien submarine bases? Underwater UFOs have been sighted on many occasions lifting out of their submerged depths and taking to the air. In an article entitled "UFOs - at 450 Fathoms," UFO Reporter Ed Hyde told of the sighting made by Dr. R. J. Villela, a Brazilian scientist, who saw a UFO smash through an estimated 40 feet of ice at the South Pole and soar into the sky at amazing speed. It was author and researcher Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson who suggested that aliens could remain undetected by building their bases beneath the world's oceans. Dr. Sanderson found that by actual count, over 50 percent of the UFO sightings had occurred over, coming from, or plunging into or coming out of water. This includes oceans, seas, lakes, and reservoirs. Of the oceanic UFOs (some term them USOs or Unidentified Submersible Objects), one was tracked by the U.S. Navy near Puerto Rico in 1963. Of course many of these objects have been tracked over Puerto Rico since that time. On a training maneuver, a sonar operator detected a sub aqueous object traveling at over 150 knots! The technicians tracked this object for four days and it maneuvered down to the incredible depth of 27,000 feet. Submarines of 1963 could not dive further than a fraction over a mile into the ocean deeps. What kind of submersible could withstand the tremendous ocean pressures? And how could it overcome the tremendous resistance of water moving at such incredible speeds? Thanks to Bill Hamilton AstroScience Research Network http://www.astrosciences.info/ Alabama ball of light I saw a ball of light on July 2, 2005, from 8:45 to 9 PM, coming from the south, moving north at a commercial jets pace. Its altitude was around 15,000 feet as a best guess. There were no strobes or colored wing tip markers. It was the size of a BB at arm=92s length and was just a white ball of light. I called for my wife to come look, and we watched as it passed just east of their position. As it did the thing increased speed to around 1000 mph and changed course toward the northeast. We watched it until the trees blocked our view. I always call these "Flying Stars" as I have seen a number of them over the past several years. Several times I have seen them as a star, just setting there as stars do, and all of a sudden it starts moving off. I actually managed to catch one on video a year or two ago. I filmed three red lights in a triangle shape that passed close to a private plane and flew over me. Thanks to Brian Vike California cylinder images MODESTO =96 R. David Anderson writes, =93I took this picture at dusk on July 7, 2005 at around 8:50 PM, when I noticed some kind of craft toward my left that appeared a little above the tree that is in our front yard.=94 I rapidly rotated my camera on its mount and took one picture. There were several brilliant lights that surrounded this craft. It was impossible to make out the shape of the craft because the lights were so brilliant. The lights did not strobe or flash like a normal aircraft array would. Each light glowed with a high intensity. To the unaided eye the lights all seemed to merge into one, in the picture there appears to be several lights. Thanks to R. David Anderson California images -- I noticed that one of the pictures that you had last week in Filer's Files looked very similar to a picture that I had taken about a week ago. The white things in the air in the picture that I took above my house, set against the rising sun, are drifting seeds that are from cottonwood trees in the area. This may not be what was in the Canadian picture, but it does appear to be identifiable. The cottonwood seeds are white, and drift in the breeze like dandelion seeds but are twice the size. SAN MARCOS -- I went outside for a smoke at 11:30 PM, on July 6, 2005, at a couple hundred feet that reflected light from the streetlights. The creature zipped directly over my neighbor=92s house and continued to move side to side, in a space of fifty feet and then stopped. It had big "eyes" and wing-like appendages, and was probably 2 to 3 feet in width. It remained still and I could see wavering reflections from its "wings". They were not beating like a bird's, but showed shimmering reflections from the streetlights. I felt threatened, and said out loud, "I see you!" Then it went from stationary to out of sight, right over my head in an instant. Immediately, it zipped into view directly above my head, obviously studying me! I could see really weird large and intensely dark "eyes". It seemed surprised by my looking right at it and turned away and disappeared like a shot. It had a birdlike shape, but was thicker. My impression was of reflections of the streetlights on wing-like appendages, and big dark eyes. It wasn't a bird, bat or any familiar nocturnal creature. Thanks to Brian Vike HESPERIA =96 Two metallic disks were seen at 1 PM, on June 28, 2005, above the building where the witness works. The witness was able to get several other workers to come outside to view the disks. Five were watching the two disks for ten minutes, then they where joined by two other crafts. One was wobbling like it was having trouble as the craft moved across the sky and then came to a stop and stayed their for a few minutes. The one that looked like it was having troubles descended towards the lower part of the southwestern sky soon after they vanished. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com MOUNT SHASTA =96 A couple saw a little silver saucer-shaped "scout ship" skipping along across the top of the mountain. We were driving on I-5 and both saw it. Another happened right in our front yard. That one was lights in the night sky in the shape of a huge triangle which moved slowly from south to north, on an upward angle towards the full moon. The object flew in front of the moon (it was bigger than the full moon) and vanished, as if someone simply turned off the lights with a switch. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Florida UFOs captured on film HERNANDO BEACH -- These photos were taken last year in July by my sister with her new HP Photosmart 850 digital camera. There were five photos taken at the time and this was the last photo taken that showed five white triangles. I would like to remain anonymous, thank you. Other photos can be seen at www.ufocenter.com ANTANA -- An interesting report was submitted to NUFORC recently, together with photographs. Four lights were observed moving slowly around 8:45 PM, on June 29, 2005. A 13 year old boy ran into the house asking his Mother for a camera as he saw something strange in the sky. About 90 seconds after he went back outside, there was a tremendous boom. My son states that, he saw four lights that appeared to be on a circular object moving very slowly southward. The object disappeared at the same time of an extremely loud boom. The object was observed for about two minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Idaho close encounter with disk BOISE -- This photo was taken July 1, 2005, from the Idaho Center Outdoor Amphitheater. The photographer states, "I was snapping a photo of the KQFC airplane banner and a tethered blimp balloon and wanted to get them in the same shot, so I took a several photos." This is the only image that had the UFO object in question. This Blog was started because the photographer took three UFO photos within ten days. Go to http://boiseufos.blogspot.com/ to see the rest of the photos. MERIDIAN =96 The male witness states, =93I was approached by a strange flying light while driving home on July 8, 2005. I was driving home to Meridian with my aunt and her grand kids from Fruitland, Oregon, and we left getting close to midnight. I took the Franklin exit off of Interstate 84 by mistake. So I just headed north till I hit Cherry Lane Road that is a back road to Meridian. There was no other traffic and all we could see was a lot of open unused fields. =46rom out of nowhere a strange light approached the side of the car at ground level and then flew right over us. It hardly made any sound. All I could see was four bright white lights that were round in shape. It felt like I was being watched for a split second. After it flew over the car it dove down into the field next to us and its lights went out. I saw that it didn't look anything like a plane. It looked more like a long wing or saucer shaped. I saw one light come on after the bright ones went out. It was a small blinking blue light. After it had swooped down in the field, I saw it whip around and jump back up in to the sky. I felt lucky this thing didn't crash into us and I just kept driving. I looked back in my rear view mirror and it was just hovering above the trees. The female witness states: We were going back to Meridian, Idaho and were driving along west on Cherry Road. All of a sudden a strong light from out of no where beamed on us. It was a bright white light. The object flew right in front of us and passed us in to a field. A beaming strong light shined on us as the object flew by. The lights went out and a blue flashing light came on. The object stopped and turned around and went back up in the sky.((NUFORC Note: Pete Davenport spoke with both witnesses and believes them to be quite credible. Please see photograph of the wound that he found on his foot on the morning of the incident. Also a drawing of the incident as at www.ufocenter.com Missouri 1956 photograph analyzed KANSAS CITY -- Don Burleson PhD has enlarged and edged the 1956 photo sent by Richard Buchli D.V.M. PhD. The photo was taken by a twelve year old boy in 1956. His father was a prominent doctor in that town, and I have every reason to believe his story. Thanks to Don Burleson PhD and Richard Buchli D.V.M. PhD. Roswell crash in New Mexico, Tom Carey writes, =93I have just returned from NM/Roswell after a week down there.=94 After spending parts of three days out in the desert and after years of searching, I can report that Don Schmitt and I have located the final Roswell crash site where the remainder of the craft that exploded near Corona finally came to rest. The site's location is not based upon mathematical models but upon the accounts of military and civilian eyewitnesses who were actually there. We are confidant that we were at the exact location. We had attempted to find it by helicopter in 2002 using our own "band of feasibility" for our Sci Fi Channel's, "The Roswell Crash: Startling New Evidence", but the geographic and structural markers that we were looking for were not apparent to us from the air. We were able to locate the tell-tale markers on the ground, however, with the help of topographic maps, professional archaeologists and the witness accounts. Tom Carey, Huntingdon Valley, PA. North Carolina images Alan Caviness continues to take images of UFOs near his home. On June 4, around 10 PM, EDT, a series of UFOs were taken of an unknown aerial object over a UFO-active area in central North Carolina. This locality is frequently monitored by a field team of independent UFO investigators. In most cases, the UFOs are invisible to the human eye. Their is a backlog of many hundreds of photographs and is analyzing them carefully as time allows. You can obtain a CD of the many images he and his team have obtained for a donation to Filer=92s Files. Thanks to Alan Caviness Oklahoma saucer seen near mutilation HOLLIS -- Jim Hickman executive director of Skywatch International writes, =93You had a report on a cattle mutilation in Filer's Files #29 that is in the same location of a UFO Roundup report that had a UFO sighting on July 1, 2005. It may be significant that we can roughly place a UFO at the time and location of a cattle mutilation." Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International and UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 27 July 6, 2005. Ohio mystery light may be Space Station CLEVELAND -- NASA claims the mysterious red light seen in the Brookpark sky over the weekend may have been the Space Station that flew over on July 10, 2005. A witness claims while working at Cleveland Hopkins Airport we saw a red light in the sky, just above the Ford plant in Brookpark. The light hovered for about 45 minutes and was probably 2 to 3 thousand feet in the sky. Editor's Note: The Space Station passes over in a couple minutes not 45 minutes. Ohio flying triangle watched for two hours PORTSMOUTH -- We were sitting outside on our patio at 10:30 PM, on July 2, 2005, when I noticed a flickering object moving in the sky coming in the direction of the house. It was just above tree-top level so if it had been an airplane one would have heard the sound. A few minutes later another object exactly like the first came through in exactly the same direction as though following an imaginary road in the sky. And then a few minutes later yet another object came through. It made "contact" with a moving "star." The object flickered on finally in the same direction as the first two and then the "star" moved on in another direction. These same objects came back from the direction that they went and then disappeared. The moving "star" appeared again. It was triangular in shape with the point of the triangle being the front of the craft with flashing red, green, and white lights all around it. Since July 2, we have seen these same objects every night at about 10:30 PM. FOSTORIA =96 On June 25, 2005, George Ritter captured this dark object on his RCA VHS video camera at 4:04 PM. George regularly takes video of UFOs above the farm next door. George writes, "The metal grain bin is 265 yards from where I usually shoot from and is measured by laser range finder." The object appears to be about 300 yards away and an estimated 30 feet across moving at over a 1000 mph.. Thanks to George Ritter. UFO propulsion LUBBOCK =96 John E. Combest an electrical engineer writes, =93George Ritter has been taking great photos that are relatively close-up near a farm in Fostoria, Ohio.=94 I think that something can be learned about the general method of propulsion of those vehicles by studying all good quality photos - no matter whether or not the image seems to be blurred. I had the fortune while visiting Mackenzie State Park in Lubbock, Texas on May 18, 1975, to take two photos of a UFO which was in two different attitudes of flight - one in which the craft was about two miles away and angled toward the ground; while the second photo seems to show the craft in a high speed descent heading in the general direction of the camera. I did not see the UFO at the time the photos were taken - 35 mm, ASA 64, shot at 1/125th second - but noticed the UFOs when viewing the slides many weeks later. That shutter speed of 1/125th second was fast enough to obtain stop-action on the first image, but the craft was apparently moving much faster in the second photo as it seemed - based upon the blurred area toward the rear and right side of the UFO - to move from the size of a speck to about 1/8th inch diameter while the shutter was open. That apparent physical change during 1/125th second seems to imply high speed motion of the object. My studies so far have suggested that the blurred image often obtained when photographing a UFO is caused by diffusion of the light coming from the craft's surface, and that diffusion of light may well be caused by a very powerful, very high frequency magnetic field being generated by the UFO in flight. There are several videos which I have studied during which the UFO seems to move along through the sky in pulsed motion as the craft seems to alternately elongate while speeding up, and then to assume a more normal shape as it slows down. Those pulsation cycles are around one-second in duration. And in some cases the craft's field strength is so powerful that the craft can be seen only during the slow-down part of the motion cycle, but becomes invisible during the faster, elongated motion. Thanks to John E. Combest, Inspection Engineer V.P., Houston UFO Network jecombest.nul Argentina: commotion over UFO continues CHACO -- One of the eyewitness accounts came from Sergio Acosta, who said that between 6:05 and 6:10 AM on July 15, as he was throwing out the trash, he noticed "a powerful light that lit up the sky." He informed LT-16 Radio Santa Esmeralda that he " looked upward and saw a something like a giant star, flying at high speed, at an altitude that did not exceed 1000 to 1500 meters in an east to west direction until it became lost in the horizon." Apparently he was so alarmed by the strange object's flight pattern that some details were burned into his mind. "It lost a chunk of its luminous body in flight, and in its rear it had something like a "little tail" following it at a close distance, like a hot coal, as thought it was a jet engine or navigation light. But it was a very large object," Acosta remarked. This was one of the most detailed accounts of the sighting. But there were at least 4 other witnesses who claimed having seen this light. "It turned night into day. It lit up everything," said Cesar Gustavo Blanco to a local FM station. hanks to Corrientes Noticias - http://www.corrientesnoticias.com.ar WATER TANK MYSTERIOUSLY EMPTIED LA PAMPA -- On July 1, 2005, seventy thousand liters of water vanished from a tank used to provide drinking water to animals in a farm located near the town of Parera. Adolfo Ziegenfhus, the tank's owner stated, "On Friday evening [the tank] was full and in the morning it was completely empty, seventy thousand liters vanished from dusk to dawn without a trace and without any signs that could account for the loss of the water. Ziegenfhus, witnessed the discovery of mutilated animals on his field in recent years. INEXPLICATA readers will recall the disappearance of water from storage tanks and swimming pools in Argentina's La Pampa province during the summer of 2002. No proof of leaks or seepage was ever found in those cases. Translation (c) 2005, Scott Corrales, IHU Australia unusual lights above airport MOUNT GAMBIER -- Whilst driving south past the airport ten kilometers north of Mount Gambier at 8:45 PM, on June 30, 2005, in South Australia, I saw three white lights at 30 degrees elevation. At first, I thought it was a plane about to land. As it lined up on an approach it had three white lights in a line, but no navigation lights. The airport landing lights were off, but they should be switched on by the pilot when landing. There was no noise and after a few seconds I realized after alighting from my car that the lights were stationary in the sky. I could not see any shape at all. I continued on after about a minute and while entering the city saw an orange glow at about 45 degrees elevation traverse northeast towards the airport about 10 km away. It moved quite slowly in a straight line without navigation lights or sound. It had a haze around it and was not man made. Canada sightings increase Niagara Falls -- On July 11, 2005 at 12 PM, a black teardrop shaped aircraft floated high in the sky. It was weaving in and out and was traveling very fast. I was sitting in my front yard when I looked up and saw a black colored object. I studied it closer, at first I thought it was a kite or balloon. When I later looked it was on the other side of the sky. I decided its shape wasn't anything like a balloon, it seemed to be much larger. I thought this was too weird and I grabbed my camera and took pictures. Then, suddenly it started moving sharply and it started to seem like it was weaving in and out of pylons. I watched it until it finally was out of sight. SCARBOROGH --Paul writes, =93Since March of 2003, I have had my fair share of sightings along with many other witnesses, but this has gone even further with strange occurrences such as seeing a flying creature.=94 As one takes a breath during this very high activity, one must truly find out everything including about one's self. I have been circling around all local ufologists in the field, Canada's MUFON and their reaction is that they "never" heard of a case like mine and not much they can do to help. I have even pleaded with witnesses to phone MUFON with their sightings. As for the reflection of awareness of being taken at age four. I found an Aug.1965 article in the Toronto Star Newspaper Archives, that there were sightings over Scarborough. Half way down the article it states, "UFO's were seen in recent weeks over Scarborough." Obviously, there has been on-going activity for years. I was totally blown away because there was a blackout the following day at 4:11 PM. This gives one confirmation of "fact" that I was not having nightmares back in 1963. Funny, how I still work there, the drive really sucks. Back in Oct.18, 1999, I was rear ended with my foot on the brake in traffic on the Highway 401. He hit me at 120 km and the trunk was pushed up to the back seats but I walked away without a scratch. The person who hit me, was Eric "Butcher"? I have escaped death nine times. He seemed quite calm about it, not to mention the police took one and a half hours to arrive at the scene on a major highway. These are confirmation that in "fact" I was not having nightmares in 1963. The Eastern Seaboard had a blackout in November of 1965. Many countries around the world experienced major blackouts in 2003 that were blamed on tree branches that needed pruning? Meanwhile there were many sightings. I have been researching since 2003, to find the commonalities. There is way too much for me to write everything of what I have seen and learned along the way. I do believe this may be about DNA and light energy. I feel shortly that there will be contact since you can't dismiss the increased signs. I am a human, and have great compassion for all life. Today I sit, while our species destroys our home of mother earth. "Who" or "what" is controlling our planet? So my answer to your question is "yes" George and you may print this as well. This will come to everybody's door as it has for me. God Bless us all. Paul ----- EDMONTON, ALBERTA -- On July 12, 200, at just after 2:AM, in the morning I went outside, because I couldn't sleep. I stood in the back alley looking at the stars as it was a very clear night, with just a couple of clouds visible. I stood there not 5 minutes when what I thought was a satellite moving north at about 90 degrees directly overhead, stopped dead in it's tracks and lit up to an enormous bright light that appeared to me to be pulsating. It lasted only about 5 seconds, then started to diminish until it was the same spec in the sky as before and continued on its path. I am an amateur astronomer and skywatch as often as the weather permits, and know that this was way too high to be a helicopter which is often seen around my area. For this thing to go from a pin point of light to about the size of the tip of my index finger in brightness is very strange to me, as I'm sure it must have been very high in altitude. If there is an explanation, I would love to hear it, because it has me at a loss. The color was bright white, and no noise was heard. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189, email: hbccufo.nul Denmark light seen for ten minutes COPENHAGEN --I work late hours and had just returned home. It had been a hot day, so I went out on my balcony to water the plants at 1:15 AM, on June 30, 2005, when I saw an orange light coming from the southeast shining so bright, that it looked like a star you put on the top of a Christmas tree. The object was 25 meters (75-80 feet) above. It flew slowly right above the middle of the street without sound and making the darkened roofs glow in the light. After a kilometer or so it turned westwards. I was so busy watching it, that I hadn=92t noticed the other one, until it was right above my head. The second one was looking the same and took the exact course of the first one. They were 1200 meters apart flying at 8 mph. I've reported it to the Danish UFO reporting center, but so far no other observations have been made. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com CUAUTLA -- Mr. Luis Roca Cerezo was driving along the highway toward Mexico City in the company of his father on May 7, 2005, when he became aware of a strange light in the sky that had movement. Fortunately, he had with him a camera that allowed him to record the unusual event. Numerous sightings of plasma-type vessels have been recorded in the State of Morelos, mainly over the cities of Cuernavaca, Cuautla and Tepoztl=E1n that border the volcano zone, a probable factor for UFO incidents. Thanks to Carlos Clemente with Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, IHU. MEXICO CITY -- The Journal of Hispanic Ufology reports Photos taken on July 15 and 16, 2005 by Prof. Ana Luisa Cid show strange luminous objects hovering near power lines and invisible to the human eye. They were only recorded on the photograph. Thanks to Prof. Ana Luisa Cid and Translation (c) 2005. IHU Puerto Rico disc photographed MAYAGUEZ =96 Prof. Reinaldo Rios reports, Little is known about this 1998 photograph taken at about 12:30 PM, by a doctor using a 35 mm camera. He apparently stopped on Highway # 2 to photograph this luminous object but wishes to remain anonymous. Thanks to Prof. Reinaldo Rios reinaldorios888.nul Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers and will continue to grow with your help. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Google Cheese From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:32:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:32:11 -0400 Subject: Google Cheese Nick Balaskas writes: "Check out the new Google Moon site (which identifies the spots
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:19:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:33:47 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' <snip> >>I just wonder sometimes if it isn't the acronym "UFO" itself >>that is always putting people off of the subject. If you ask >>someone if they believe in UFOs I can guarantee that the extreme >>majority will instantly think you are asking if they believe in >>alien spaceships. I have heard the same argument, for instance, from Jenny Randles. My view is that it doesn't matter what you call it, the "new agers" will start using whatever acronym is used to replace it. We could then finish up changing acronyms every 3 years, which would not be very helpful, especially for any future historians! <snip> >Of course the term UFO puts people off the subject, the >extra-terrestrial subject that is. >I absolutely despise the term UFO because it depotentiates the >idea of extra-terrestrial life, yet, isn't Ufology focused on >the study of all things ET? I find it incredible that you are so naive, Sheryl! This is _exactly_ the attitude that keeps many people away from ufology. (Including the Australian witness that was under discussion on the ufologyinuk list recently). <snip> >Unusual Aerial Phenomena, at least in my mind, seems to include >the idea of atmospheric anomalies. Again, not what the >extraterrestrial subject is about. I agree. Kick the term UFO >out of Ufology but don't replace it with something as equally >misleading. What's wrong with Alien or ET anyway? >After all that's what it is about, isn't it? >Or did I get that wrong after all? Reading some of the posts to >this List sometimes I wonder? Yep, you did get that wrong - the purpose of ufology is to attempt to identify the cause(s) of UFO reports. That means even if the cause was something that you would prefer it not to be, eg the planet Venus, a flock of birds, a satellite, a balloon, etc. Even those that can't be explained directly in mundane terms need not necessarily be caused by aliens from Mars. I can offer at least three alternative explanations to the ETH for any single case that you care to mention which you will be unable to disprove, try me if you like. (This is a once-only offer, so choose any case carefully!). I think it would serve the interests of genuine ufologists and people who hold similar views to yourself if you all got together to form a different field of research - you could call it "Alienology" for instance and leave ufology alone. <snip> >so I say lock them up and feed them gruel... if they're lucky. And sceptics seemingly have a reputation for being fascistic?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:57:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:38:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Kaeser >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:35:03 +0000 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:53:19 +0100 (BST) >>>>Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >>>>And if, after the Toronto conference, there are a number of >>>>new recruits to the Exoplitical cause, would that be such a >>>>tragedy for Ufology? >>>If the whole point is determining the truth about UFOs (and >>>propagating it) based on proper and/or scientific >>>investigation and reseach, i.e. finding and spreading the >>>truth based on the evidence... Yes! >>And tomorrow you'll annexe Austria and on Thursday invade >>Poland. >>You're not a Ufologist, you're a fascist. While passion and a >>firm belief are commendable qualities, you take yours to a point >>where you make me feel decidely uncomfortable. >>I consider you a danger to Ufology Eugene and most definitely >>not an asset. With your "correct" way of doing things, your >>"correct" views and attitudes, and a dogmatic approach that >>would have seen you quickly promoted within the early 1940s >>German war machine, quite frankly, you creep me out. >>As far as I'm concerned, I think I have said enough on this >>subject for me to feel comfortable leaving it here. >Stuart, >This one really breaks it for me. All I can conclude is that >(tit for tat) you are a total idiot and calling Eugene >'dogmatic' and 'fascist' evokes gales of laughter from me. >You seem to think that any wild, off-the-wall claim is equally >worth consideration with well-established, factual, documented >evidence. >If we can't 'disprove' something somebody says that you happen >to agree with (no matter how wild-eyed and lacking in evidence), >then we are being "dogmatic", 'telling people what to think,' >I can clearly see that you don't have a clue about logic, >scientific method, or rational discourse. Therefore I have no >further interest in anything you have to say, and I applaud >Eugene and others on the List who obviously think much more >clearly and fairly and logically than you do and are trying >(against all odds) to offset the cancer that has invaded >'ufology'. >- Dick Wendy Connors recently posted a very good piece on start of (what appears to be) "Ufology's Internal War". She said, in part, "It has become apparent that an internal war has begun regarding the state of modern Ufology. Nothing really new, but the players are changing so rapidly, that common sense seems to have become a casualty." Wendy continued: "What, then, is a Ufologist? Again, I cannot speak for others, but I think a Ufologist is a person who has studied the phenomena and its history, then proceeds one step further by actually doing field research regarding specific cases or the subject in general to keep the knowledge base current. Thus, there are a few researchers who make up the core of ufological study. The vast majority of people use the research from the few to bring the subject to public forums. Some people do well in bringing the subject to public forums, but the majority do not, due to wild speculation and belief systems." The question that we seem to be dancing around is that of the definition of "ufology". IMO, it is important to define ufology from the perspective of what it is, as well as the perspective of what it isn't. That isn't to say that other aspects of the paranormal aren't worth further study, but if we treat all that is paranormal as part of the study of UFOs, the field is doomed to constant infighting and rejection by traditional science (unless there is a major "event" that clearly shows the "unknowns" and becomes the focus). For every researcher like Richard Hall on this List, there are probably a dozen long time researchers that are lurking in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:32:47 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:41:19 -0400 Subject: Re: The Question Of Exopolitics - Salla >From: Vince White <Vinceomni.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:13 EDT >Subject: The Question Of Exopolitics >A well known UFO lecturer stated on a radio show that he knew of >three individuals who had seen film footage of a landing & >meeting at Holloman AFB - that's exopolitics. This same >researcher knew of Air Force Base radio exchanges with UFOs, >more exopolitics. A disclosure project witness states he knows >of active ET liaison with the USSC - certainly an exopolitical >claim. Exopolitics will not go away, it will loom larger and >larger. >Empiricism rules in Ufology. The question is not whether the >next step is exopolitics, rather it is whether exopolitical >analysis will be soundly based and validated. Aloha Vince, Thanks for raising this issue for the List. In my own view exopolitics as a term is based on the precedent set by the conjuction of the qualifier 'exo' with the noun 'biology'. Exobiology is well established as a conventional term and has the following definition in the Online Encarta Dictionary: "outer-space biology: a branch of biology concerned with the possibility that life forms exist on other planets and with the problems of adapting the Earth's life forms to alien environments" We might come up with a similar definition based solely on the extraterrestrial hypothesis without assuming anything about whistleblower and witness reports about extraterrestrials. We might have something along the lines of: outer-space politics: a branch of politics concerned with the possibility that life forms are visiting the Earth, and with the problems of adapting Earth politics to deal with visiting aliens. In my view exopolitics has a definite start with some of the earliest national security policies made in response to the growing UFO sightings. For convenience, I would use General Voyt Vandenberg's decision to reject the First Estimate of the Situation in 1948 as the beginning of exopolitics. This rection was based on the Estimate's positive conclusion in support of the extraterrestrial hypothosis, and his decision to have a new Estimate provided, and to declassify the original Estimate and have it burned. This shows that there were clear national security implications concerning the extaterrestrial hypothesis. For exopolitics to be a valid academic discipline there is no requirement to prove the existence of visiting extraterrestrials. There is only a need to demonstrate that the extraterrestrial hypothesis is considered seriously by policy makers in the political and national security system. Thus Vandenberg's decision and a host of other policy decisions concerning the extraterrestrial hypothesis demonstrate the validity of exopolitics. In addition, I would say that Donald Keyhoes, The UFO Conspiracy, were the first books dealing with exopolitics though of course the term itself was never used. I hope that clarifies why the exopolitics term is here to stay and is a desirable alternative to UFOlogy or the study of UFOs more generally which emphasizes the phenomenological aspect of sightings rather than the very clear political and national security policies surrounding it. I agree with many on this list that the term UFO has served its purpose and an alternative is needed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: Google Cheese - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:46:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:39:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Cheese - Groff >Nick Balaskas writes: >"Check out the new Google Moon site (which identifies the spots >of all 6 Apollo landings). Zoom in all the way for some >surprising evidience on what the Moon is actually made of!" >http://moon.google.com/ Now we all know this is phony. The moon is made of _Green_ cheese. This is a total disinformation campaign perpetrated by NASA, on behalf of Area 51, to conceal the real truth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:02 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:19:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 >>Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' <snip> >>>I just wonder sometimes if it isn't the acronym "UFO" itself >>>that is always putting people off of the subject. If you ask >>>someone if they believe in UFOs I can guarantee that the extreme >>>majority will instantly think you are asking if they believe in >>>alien spaceships. >I have heard the same argument, for instance, from Jenny >Randles. My view is that it doesn't matter what you call it, the >"new agers" will start using whatever acronym is used to replace >it. We could then finish up changing acronyms every 3 years, >which would not be very helpful, especially for any future >historians! Jenny Randles saw my remarks on this list, and posted the following comments via ufologyinuk: ----- Hi, I note that on UpDates there is a debate on whether the term 'UFO' is responsible for all the ills of Ufology. Someone has suggested replacing it with UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) as an answer. Joe has responded by saying that I have previously argued for this but he disputes its likely success. Just wanted to note that I don't think this would solve the issues raised on Updates for exactly the reasons that Joe noted there - any term will come to mean what UFOs means now in popular consensus, just as UFO did when it replaced Flying Saucer. It's not the words, but how society abuses them. However, my point has always been not that adopting UAP would change the world - although it would get us away from the stigma somewhat. But rather that it is a more correct definition of what we are dealing with. UFO 'assumes' a craft or at least an object, whereas phenomenon is a far more accurate and none presumptive word. I think some of the problems within Ufology do stem from ufologists making the assumption, up front, that is instilled into them by the use of the word 'object' (aka craft), as central to our most basic terminology. Oh, and I always refer to UAP as 'Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena' (not aeral) because the word aerial also has an implication of flight that is not correct with certain kinds of event - for instance atmospheric mirages. Just wanted to explain my perspective on this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Okay, Gildas, please tell me who you think is credible in terms >>of making _specific_ claims about seeing _alien_ bodies at >>Roswell? >Nick, >I am primarily thinking of the debris witnesses, you must be >aware of that, but now you want me to talk about the more >fragile area of witnesses for the alien bodies. Gildas Interesting that after criticizing me for believing testimony about Japanese bodies found in New Mexico, you yourself admit that the evidence for alien bodies is "fragile". >My first reaction is not to enter in such a discussion with you, >because you are subtly changing the subject, from your Body >Snatchers story to the real Roswell case. This is a totally outrageous comment! And I am sure the List will see it for that. I am _not_ changing the subject - subtly or otherwise. You have asked me numerous questions since the book was published on 21 June, and I have tried to answer them to the best of my ability and with patience. I have shown that people at NEPA such as Gasser knew about pre- 1949 UFO research in the US to try and build these things and that he made the atomic connection. I have also _documented_ that the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project were "snatching bodies", as late as the mid-1950s, from a Formosa hospital. I have also shown that Dr Lincoln La Paz - involved in late 40s UFO-related investigations in New Mexico - was doing secret research into Japanese Balloon Bombs in the War. I have also commented on the fact - thanks to Jean Pierre Pharabod bringing it to light - that there is testimony that some of the bodies looked "Chinese" at one site. I have also shown that in 1947 the FBI was drawing parallels between disc investigations and wartime Fugo Balloon investigations. I have also shown that the Japanese planned to attack the US with huge balloons manned by "death defying Japanese". But you still believe that the bodies are alien. Which is fine. I actually have no problem with you coming to that conclusion. But if you ask me why I hold my beliefs and I take the time to patiently answer your questions and respond to your observations, I feel that I am entitled to ask you why you think that the theory I present is invalid. To me that is not an unreasonable request considering the length of some of my replies to your points and questions. And what do you say in response to my questions about alien bodies? I'll tell you what you say: you admit the evidence is "fragile." Then you say I am changing the subject - I'm not. I'm asking a reasonable question as to why you believe in the UFO angle and dismiss mine, and you respond by saying that you won't enter into an "endless debate". I don't want an "endless debate". All I want from you is a list of credible people at Roswell who have stated that they saw alien bodies. Not "little men". Not "strange-looking men". Not "creatures". But Aliens, ETs. As I said, all of the other descriptions are open to debate and could actually be used to support the testimony of my sources. Given the amount of questions you've asked me, and the number of points you have raised and that I have patiently answered, my request is not at all unreasonable. But you won't answer it. In fact, your lack of reply on the question of credible data re the alien body angle of Roswell says more - ironically - than if you _had_ replied to it. >Again, as a closing note from me, if the Air Force officers of >Roswell had found a Japanese crew on board a kind of secret >plane, they would not have believed that they were Martians, and >they would not have issued their famous press release. Who is saying anything about Martians??? You continually make the mistake of interpreting "Flying Disc" as alien spaceship. Gildas, You have _got_ to try and get into the minds of the people back then and understand what "Flying Disc" meant to them in the summer of 1947. Not what it means or implies to us today. An examination of a wealth of FOIA documents shows that the military's first thought was that these were a secret weapon (either of the US or a foreign power - FBI documents of the time discuss this a lot, see page 154 of Body Snatchers). Even the FBI were drawing parallels with the Fugo Balloon investigations in terms of the way in which the discs were being investigated. So, there was no mindset at the time of the crash that Flying Discs _were_ alien. But it _does_ create that exact mindset with you, because 60 years on we equate Flying Discs with UFOs and aliens. Back then they thought it was secret weapons. So by definition, they thought they were possibly recovering a secret weapon - which ironically they were. The Roswell people just weren't cleared to know what was happening elsewhere in NM and didn't know it was "one of ours." Until they were told (by which time the press release had been authorized and was out there), and then came the "It's just a weather balloon" explanation. And then later the military began to realize the way in which the UFO subject could be carefully manipulated and used in similar scenarios. Nick R
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 20 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:41:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:54:57 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Groff >From: Carl Feindt <waterufo.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:17:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' ><snip> >>All serious researchers know that the acronym merely means >>"Unidentified Flying Objects" ><snip> >And I thought it meant Unconventional Flying Objects However in >my case it means Underwater or Floating Objects . >Makes you wonder where these acronyms are born Carl, The first recognized use of "UFO" came in 1952 from Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, the first Director of Project Bluebook. The Air Force also used "UFOB" (B?) for a short time but "UFO" became the most recognized. Ruppelt's 1956 memoir is called, The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. J. Allen Hynek felt that the term should have only been used for objects only after they had been thoroughly investigated and still found to be unidentified. Later on some people did start to substitute words like "unexplained" and "unconventional" for the "U". Paul Hill (NASA) titled his 1970 book "Unconventional Flying Objects". In any event it is the acronym (or initialism), "UFO", itself that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Blogs In Space Target Aliens From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:52:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:55:38 -0400 Subject: Blogs In Space Target Aliens Source: vnunet.com http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2140086/mindcomet-blog-space 20 Jul 2005 Blogs in space target aliens To boldly blog where no-one has blogged before Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 20 Jul 2005 Bloggers will now be able to send their online musings into deep space for free in an unorthodox attempt to find intelligent life in the universe. Florida firm MindComet is offering to transmit all blogs into the ether via a commercial satellite. The idea is to add blogs to the information being broadcast to any potential little green men, which currently includes all the television and radio signals the planet has generated over the past century. "I have always believed that other intelligent life forms are out there and for the first time they will be able to peer into the life of average Homo Sapiens," explained Ted Murphy, president and chief executive at MindComet. "We are giving bloggers the opportunity to send a piece of their lives into space to potentially connect with extraterrestrials." Bloggers can submit their site URLs to bloginspace.com and can keep aliens constantly updated via RSS feeds. Real enthusiasts can also buy bloginspace.com t-shirts and thongs to spread the word.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 'Alien' Worm Descends On Earth PCs From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:53:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:58:22 -0400 Subject: 'Alien' Worm Descends On Earth PCs Source: Vnunet.Com http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2140107/alien-worm-attacks-earth-pcs 20 Jul 2005 'Alien' worm descends on Earth PCs Independence Day in reverse Robert Jaques, vnunet.com IT security experts today advised credulous PC users not to be taken in by a newly discovered worm which displays a message purporting to come from an extraterrestrial. The Sundor-A worm displays a picture of an alien with the following message: 'I'm the alien. Have a happy week. I liked your computer.' According to security firm Sophos, the worm deletes programs and documents from the hard drives of infected computers. It can also hide desktop icons and disable security software, potentially leaving the computer open to infection by other worms, viruses and spyware. "The good news is that you're more likely to be abducted by an alien than infected by this virus," said Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant at Sophos. "Sundor-A has so far been remarkably unsuccessful at spreading its message to the inhabitants of planet Earth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Aliens Beware! From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:03:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:03:29 -0400 Subject: Aliens Beware! Source: SF Weekly - San Francisco http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2005-07-20/news/infiltrator.html Wednesday, July 20, 2005 Aliens Beware! Infiltrator takes in NASA Space Camp for kids. As an adult. To save the planet By Harmon Leon I've seen the summer blockbuster and Tom Cruise vehicle War of the Worlds. Let me tell ya, space aliens are out there, ready to swoop down on Earth, for the sole purpose of: Putting us humans in human space zoos. Using us humans in lab experiments to test out the safety of their alien cosmetic products. Kicking our human butts and then simply laughing that smug alien laugh of theirs (a laugh only dogs can hear). That's why I need to protect the world from an alien invasion. They're not going to destroy my Earth. No sirree! Sneaking over OUR intergalactic borders, taking OUR intergalactic jobs, and messing up OUR neighborhoods, while playing their loud extraterrestrial hoochie music -- not in my backyard, they don't! We need to preserve the human race, especially the American humans. Chant with me: HUMANS-OF-USA! HUMANS-OF-USA! HUMANS-OF-USA! That's right, we're No. 1, we humans (of USA, of course)! Already there are clear-cut signs that aliens are fucking with our species. How else do you explain Tom Cruise freaking out about Scientology on the Today Show? Do you want what happened to Tom Cruise to happen to you? (Damn you, aliens!) Nothing good comes from an alien invasion (unless it's the oft-mentioned "alien anal-probe"). Just like most of you routinely have fire drills in your homes, we humans need to have alien drills, to be ready for an invasion by those shifty-eyed, E.T.-looking, towel-headed space aliens. Through a Google search, I find a listing for MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network, with a phone number you can use to give your babbling report of a UFO sighting to a "Field Investigator." This is great; it will give me a little practice for when we're at full intergalactic Amber Alert. The MUFON site says that UFO field investigators not only have references from the UFO community, but also have experience in UFO cases, animal mutilations, or UFO government cover-ups. These are my kind of people! But let's test the waters to see if they can handle a full-on, War of the Worlds invasion. I call a UFO field investigator who is located in Mobile, Ala. His name is Clay. I give him the full scoop. "UFO Reporting Center," says UFO Field Investigator Clay. "SON OF A BITCH! SON OF A BITCH!" I exclaim to indicate the frazzled state I'm in as a result of my recent sighting. Besides, the swearing adds to my credibility. "I'm spooked! I'm kind of spooked! Son of a bitch!" "Calm down, sir." "I would like to report a sighting!" [Pause] "I am not a crackpot!" "Let me turn off the TV." [Sound of loud TV being turned off] "Son of a bitch! Son of a bitch!" "OK, tell me what you saw." "It looked like a goddamn giant woodshed with lights that hovered, then shot straight up like a goddamn bullet, that's all! Son of a bitch! Son of a bitch!" The best that MUFON Field Investigator Clay can do is take down all the information concerning the incident, while I graphically describe the alien anal-probe I encountered, after which I give him the phone number and address of my ex-girlfriend, in case he needs further information. But it soon becomes clear: If they just take notes in Mobile, field investigators like Clay offer little hope to the human race. And I need to hit the aliens where they live. So I go to Mountain View and attend NASA Space Camp for kids -- as an adult! To take action for the good of mankind. To prepare for space. To get one step closer to an alien anal-probe. Aahh, an alien anal-probe! Sure, I know what you're thinking: This all sounds like a craaaaaazy Jack Black movie waiting to happen. Can you see it? Jack Black as a chubby, hung-over, way-over-the-top substitute Space Camp instructor who must whip a ragamuffin crew of kids together to become space cadets. Then, due to a series of mishaps, he accidentally ends up launching himself and the kids into outer space, causing them to bond together to get the craft safely back to Earth. But here's the ironic twist: They all end up tragically dying of asphyxiation in their capsule, like the Russian Sputnik dog Laika, because they're all severely undertrained for a space mission. Whoops! The movie would be called Crazy Space Death! In preparation for NASA Space Camp, I study the NASA manual and memorize many space acronyms that I'll spout freely so I fit in during training with my space-enthusiast peers. Also, I devise my own spacesuit for "my mission" -- an orange jumpsuit, with the words "HUMANS #1" scrawled on the back, and adorned with bits of Christmas tinsel, to give it a futuristic look of tomorrow. It's time for liftoff. Inside a large NASA building with walls lined with smiley pictures of past astronauts, I soon learn my fellow Space Camp- mates are spotty, pre-adolescent kids who have paunchy dads. I guess NASA is preparing for a time when children and paunchy adults are needed in space. These are my fellow astronauts, an elite squadron I'll recruit to be on my team when the alien invasion begins. I'm the only one dressed in space regalia. Yes, just a grown man alone, taking in NASA Space Camp. "What are you wearing?!" asks the woman at the Space Camp check- in desk. "It's a jumpsuit," I explain. "It gives me more space-mobility." Shifting from foot to foot, I demonstrate my space-mobility theory. My Space Camp team leader, or commander, goes by the name of Roman; he's a happy man in a large "Space Camp" sweat shirt. Roman explains that he's a Space Camp leader for at least another six months; for some reason, he can't join the Los Angeles Police Department until then. "Have you ever thought about joining the Intergalactic Police Force?" I suggest, thinking he'd make an excellent second lieutenant in my squadron. The question draws big Space Camp laughs. I elaborate further: "No, really, it might help with your EVA." "My what?" Roman asks. "EVA: extra-vehicular activity," I clarify with a smug laugh. "Aah," is his reply. Apparently he hasn't memorized the NASA handbook. Maybe he wouldn't make a good second lieutenant after all. "What are you wearing?" Roman asks after a moment of silence. "It's a space-mobility suit," I explain. Our purpose tonight is to master a few space simulators. The first is called the Five Degrees of Freedom simulator. It's an apparatus that floats on air and pivots on all axes, simulating what it would be like to fix a satellite station in the weightlessness of space. "Who wants to try it first?" asks Roman. "I will, sir!" I answer, giving my commander a respectful salute and butting in line in front of all the children and paunchy dads. I'm strapped into something that looks like a high-tech, futuristic highchair. I feel like a big baby of tomorrow. I proceed to simulate raising a solar panel. It raises. Mission complete. So far, I'd have to say, space is kind of easy. I salute my fellow astronauts. "I'm getting some LOS," I say. "What?!" says Roman. "Oh, PLEASE!" I remark indignantly. Doesn't he know that means Loss of Signal? Doesn't he understand my little space joke, from my sophisticated, intergalactic sense of space humor? It's the next cadet's turn. He is 9 years old. He has trouble raising the solar panel. He is going ATO (Abort to Orbit). This is uncalled for. There's no room for the weak in my space squadron, and I'm the first to tell him so. "Well, thank you very much! If this were a real mission, we'd all be dead!" I inform the 9-year-old. The cadet's mom, or mom- cadet, gives me a nasty look. But hey, if he can't take the pressure, he's not space material. One day she'll thank me for my stern approach to space preparation. Especially when we're blowing the antennas off of alien badasses! We next go to the cockpit of the space shuttle. I immediately take position in the commander's chair. The screen has a view of the orbiting Earth. I put on the headset and start pushing all the buttons while making rocket noises. One of the paunchy dads makes the obvious joke: "Houston, we have a problem!" "Ha ha ha ha," everyone laughs. "Shut up," I say under my breath. "Shut the hell up!" The 9-year-old cadet wants to try out my commander's chair. "GET LOST, KID!" I say. He whimpers away. (Commander's note: Court-martial the little bastard!) The headset is hooked to a mock Mission Control. I use this opportunity to be witty: "Earth, surrender!" "Luke, use the force!" "Lock phasers on target." The appreciation of my space humor is limited. "Please don't push all the buttons," pipes in Roman. The coolest thing at Space Camp is the Zero-G Wall. It simulates weightlessness in space. A specially designed swivel chair is attached to suspension ropes to create the anti-gravity effect, making it feel like the chair can float alongside a wall. Our mission is to float to the top of the wall, maneuvering side to side while simulating exercises for constructing a space station. Space isn't all about floating around, you know; there's also responsibility! My thoughts turn to how great it would be to have one of these at home, to help with simulating "space sex." Again butting in line to be the first to test Zero-G out, I bend my knees, jump, and soar to the top of the wall, like a normal spaceman floating around a space wall. This exercise will come in handy for hand-to-hand alien space combat. I refuse to come down from the wall, so my fellow astronauts must watch me with space envy. Our last exercise is the Multi-Axis Trainer. It was built for the early Mercury space program and simulates not only a space capsule spinning out of control, but also what it's like to vomit in space. I'm strapped into a chair spinning on three axes. I'm spinning like a motherfuck! Roman is finally getting his revenge on me, opening this baby up. "ATO!" I scream for my safe word. (Doesn't Roman know this means Abort to Orbit?!) I'm going to throw up space food. If this is a daily part of space travel, then space travel is certainly not for me! "Abort mission! Abort mission!" I scream. The Multi-Axis Trainer comes to a halt. Fuck the aliens. I'm dizzy as hell; I'll let someone else save the planet. I'm going to forfeit my potential alien anal-probe and remain here on Earth. We humans should just try to get along with the extraterrestrials, as best we can. I think the poem I wrote after my Space Camp sojourn best sums up my feelings: Oh alien visitors, Our little friends from beyond.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:09:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:07:51 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Who is saying anything about Martians??? You continually make >the mistake of interpreting "Flying Disc" as alien spaceship. >Gildas, You have _got_ to try and get into the minds of the >people back then and understand what "Flying Disc" meant to them >in the summer of 1947. Not what it means or implies to us today. >An examination of a wealth of FOIA documents shows that the >military's first thought was that these were a secret weapon >(either of the US or a foreign power - FBI documents of the time >discuss this a lot, see page 154 of Body Snatchers). >So, there was no mindset at the time of the crash that Flying >Discs _were_ alien. But it _does_ create that exact mindset with >you, because 60 years on we equate Flying Discs with UFOs and >aliens. Back then they thought it was secret weapons. Listfolk: Nick's point is a good one and ought not to be glossed over. A few years ago, as I was trying to reconstruct the early history of the UFO controversy, I researched the question of just when popular opinion started to equate UFOs with ET visitors. The results surprised me. (For a detailed account see my paper "The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis in the Early UFO Age," in David M. Jacobs, ed. UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of Knowledge. Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 2000, pp. 122- 40.) Basically, despite the presence of jokes about Martians in the press from 1947 into the early 1950s, even witnesses overwhelmingly discounted ET interpretations. A 1951 Popular Science poll of witnesses found that only 4 percent believed they had observed "witnesses from afar." The first Gallup Poll on the subject, released on August 14, 1947 ("now that the uproar over the 'flying saucers' has subsided"), uncovered so few respondents mentioning ET explanations that they went unlisted in the results. Press and other evidence indicates that virtually the only people who thought of flying discs as ET craft were those who had read Charles Fort's works. The ETH took hold in popular culture and mainstream opinion only in the mid-1950s, after the failure of all other non-prosaic
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Non-Terrestrial USN Officers? From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:38:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:53:17 -0400 Subject: Non-Terrestrial USN Officers? I've just read an interesting story which is covered at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m12-001.shtml and http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m15-023.shtml Reminds me of a "Stargate SG-1" TV story. It's about the plight of a British man who alledgedly hacked into the US military sites. The man says a USNavy site mentioned "non-terrestrial officers" reportedly moving "fleet to fleet" to off- world ships meaning spaceships. A caveat here is this man claims he was in an 'under the influence' state heavily using pot while hacking away.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Connors From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:13:21 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:56:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Connors Greetings to Fellow Listarians, Ummm... I guess I need to say a few things regarding my recent post. I cannot define the word "Ufologist" except from personal experience. So, in order to assist in giving parameters to the term I would give an analogy: Person One: Becomes interested in the subject at an early age and follows it through their lifetime by sudying the literature, etc. As time passes the person begins to realize there must be a lot more information and data than what is currently available. At this time the person begins the transition from interested to personal research endeavors. After decades of study, investigation, research and a million dead ends on their quest to understand the phenomena being observed and reported, they share all the new documented information that was previously unknown to other researchers to contemplate and assimulate into the knowledge base of Ufology. Person Two: Maintains a very broad and general interest in the subject of Ufology. As time passes the person decides to become involved in the general discussion of Ufology to become more intimate with the subject. The person decides to drive around with a film or video camera asking researchers to give statements to the lense of the camera. This person hasn't done any long term and indepth research themselves, but thinks they have become a legitimate researcher based upon the use of other peoples work, rather than their own and edits their filmed documentation to reflect their own personal view on the subject. The question becomes: Who is the real Ufologist? The person who uses others research or the person(s) who bring new documented data to the field that adds to the knowledge base? That said: My friend, Paris Flammonde, always insisted that Ufology was the study of "flying saucers." Meaning that "flying saucers" denoted an obviously manufactured device that remains beyond our own current technological abilities. The acronym "UFO" was inadequate because it tends to lump all unknown atmospheric or space phenomena in the same box. Paris was and still is, a purist regarding the subject of Ufology. I highly recommend the listarians go back and read his books with an unbiased eye. UFO, UFOB, UAP, etc. are the semantic elements of Ufology. Therefore, no matter what acronym a person uses the bottom line fact remains as true today as it did in the beginning: An apparent manufactured object that does not equate to our own technological abilities, which are observed in the atmosphere or near/deep space, and always appears to be just beyond our own technologies and abilities to understand. Thus, such objects are no longer "magical" because we comprehend the basics of science and technology, but remain an elusive, reality based, phenomenon worthy of study. Worthy of study and research because it is obvious that technology more advanced than our own is in play. Again, anyone who claims they know the origin of UFOs, is deceiving you. Anyone who claims to know the propulsion methods of these objects, is deceiving you. The only real "truth" is that a phenomenon of manufactured aerial objects is documented and reality based. All theories are just that, theories, which researchers use to try to understand the observed phenomenon and none of these theories may be the true answer. The quest to understand is what is paramount regardless of the final answer. The quest brings greater knowledge than the final answer. I will go to the grave not knowing the answer, but with no regrets, for the quest was ecstacy in itself and I got to experience it. Just some personal thoughts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Star Trek's 'Scotty' James Doohan Dies From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:01:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:01:17 -0400 Subject: Star Trek's 'Scotty' James Doohan Dies Source: CNN.Com http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/07/20/obit.doohan.ap/index.html Wednesday, July 20, 2005 James Doohan, 'Star Trek's' Scotty, Dead LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- James Doohan, the burly chief engineer of the Starship Enterprise in the original "Star Trek" TV series and motion pictures who responded to the apocryphal command "Beam me up, Scotty," died early Wednesday. He was 85. Doohan died at 5:30 a.m. (1330 GMT) at his Redmond, Washington, home with his wife of 28 years, Wende, at his side, Los Angeles agent and longtime friend Steve Stevens said. The cause of death was pneumonia and Alzheimer's disease, he said. The Canadian-born Doohan fought in World War II and was wounded during the D-Day invasion, according to the StarTrek.com Web site. He was enjoying a busy career as a character actor when he auditioned for a role as an engineer in a new space adventure on NBC in 1966. A master of dialects from his early years in radio, he tried seven different accents. "The producers asked me which one I preferred," Doohan recalled 30 years later. "I believed the Scot voice was the most commanding. So I told them, 'If this character is going to be an engineer, you'd better make him a Scotsman.' " The series, which starred William Shatner as Capt. James T. Kirk and Leonard Nimoy as the enigmatic Mr. Spock, attracted an enthusiastic following of science fiction fans, especially among teenagers and children, but not enough ratings power. NBC canceled it after three seasons. When the series ended in 1969, Doohan found himself typecast as Montgomery Scott, the canny engineer with a burr in his voice. In 1973, he complained to his dentist, who advised him: "Jimmy, you're going to be Scotty long after you're dead. If I were you, I'd go with the flow." "I took his advice," said Doohan, "and since then everything's been just lovely." "Star Trek" continued in syndication both in the United States and abroad, and its following grew larger and more dedicated. In his later years, Doohan attended 40 "Trekkie" gatherings around the country and lectured at colleges. The huge success of George Lucas' "Star Wars" in 1977 prompted Paramount Pictures, which had produced "Star Trek" for television, to plan a movie based on the series. The studio brought back the TV cast and hired director Robert Wise. "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" was successful enough to spawn five sequels with the cast of the original TV show; other films, featuring cast members of "Star Trek: The Next Generation," have followed. The powerfully built Doohan spoke frankly in 1998 about his employer and his TV commander. "I started out in the series at basic minimum -- plus 10 percent for my agent. That was added a little bit in the second year. When we finally got to our third year, Paramount told us we'd get second-year pay! That's how much they loved us." He accused Shatner of hogging the camera, adding: "I like Captain Kirk, but I sure don't like Bill. He's so insecure that all he can think about is himself." James Montgomery Doohan was born March 3, 1920, in Vancouver, British Columbia, youngest of four children of William Doohan, a pharmacist, veterinarian and dentist, and his wife Sarah. As he wrote in his autobiography, "Beam Me Up, Scotty," his father was a drunk who made life miserable for his wife and children. At 19, James escaped the turmoil at home by joining the Canadian army, becoming a lieutenant in artillery. He was among the Canadian forces that landed on Juno Beach on D-Day. "The sea was rough," he recalled. "We were more afraid of drowning than the Germans." The Canadians crossed a minefield laid for tanks; the soldiers weren't heavy enough to detonate the bombs. At 11:30 that night, he was machine-gunned, taking six hits: one that took off his middle right finger (he managed to hide the missing finger on screen), four in his leg and one in the chest. The chest bullet was stopped by his silver cigarette case. After the war Doohan on a whim enrolled in a drama class in Toronto. He showed promise and won a two-year scholarship to New York's famed Neighborhood Playhouse, where fellow students included Leslie Nielsen, Tony Randall and Richard Boone. His commanding presence and booming voice brought him work as a character actor in films and television, both in Canada and the United States. Besides "Star Trek," Doohan was in another space adventure, "Space Command," in 1953, as well as a late-'70s children's series, "Jason of Star Command." Doohan's first marriage to Judy Doohan produced four children. He had two children by his second marriage to Anita Yagel. Both marriages ended in divorce. In 1974 he married Wende Braunberger, and their children were Eric, Thomas and Sarah, who was born in 2000, when Doohan was 80. In a 1998 interview, Doohan was asked if he ever got tired of hearing the line "Beam me up, Scotty" -- a line that, reportedly, was never actually spoken on the TV show. "I'm not tired of it at all," he replied. "Good gracious, it's been said to me for just about 31 years. It's been said to me at 70 miles an hour across four lanes on the freeway. I hear it from just about everybody. It's been fun." Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Secrecy News -- 07/20/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:17:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:04:41 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/20/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 67 July 20, 2005 ** JUDGE ROBERTS AND THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR ** FORMER INTEL OFFICERS SPEAK OUT ON THE PLAME LEAK ** RUMSFELD ON OPENNESS ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS JUDGE ROBERTS AND THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR John Roberts, the federal appeals court judge who was nominated by President Bush to the U.S. Supreme Court yesterday, played a minor role during the Reagan Administration in the chain of events that became known as the Iran Contra affair. In his 1993 final report on the matter, Independent Counsel Lawrence E. Walsh mentioned Mr. Roberts in describing the illegal fundraising activities of Clark R. "Spitz" Channell: Mr. Channell approached the White House to "offer his assistance in promoting President Reagan's contra policies," Mr. Walsh wrote in Chapter 13 of his report. "He was referred to White House political aide John Roberts, who in turn directed him to [Richard R.] Miller, a private public relations consultant who ran a firm known as International Business Communications (IBC)." "According to Channell, Roberts told him that Miller and his partner Frank Gomez 'are the White House -- outside the White House'." Channell and Miller would later plead guilty to felony conspiracy charges. Judge Roberts was not accused of wrongdoing. See Chapter 13 of the Final Report of the Independent Counsel for Iran/Contra Matters, volume I, here: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_13.htm Judge Roberts was Associate Counsel to the President from November 1982 to May 1986. FORMER INTEL OFFICERS SPEAK OUT ON THE PLAME LEAK "The disclosure of [CIA officer Valerie] Plame's name was a shameful event in American history and, in our professional judgment, may have damaged U.S. national security and poses a threat to the ability of U.S. intelligence gathering using human sources," wrote eleven former intelligence officers in an open letter to Congress this week. They disputed the contention, voiced by some Republican officials, that since Plame was employed at CIA headquarters she could not have been "under cover." "These comments reveal an astonishing ignorance of the intelligence community and the role of cover. The fact is that there are thousands of U.S. intelligence officers who 'work at a desk' in the Washington, D.C. area every day who are undercover. Some have official cover, and some have non-official cover. Both classes of cover must and should be protected." See their July 18 letter here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/07/intlet.pdf RUMSFELD ON OPENNESS "I have long believed in the importance of granting the public greater access to information about their government--the good and the bad," wrote Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in a Wall Street Journal opinion article this week, noting that he had co- sponsored the Freedom of Information Act as a member of Congress in 1966. He wrote of the challenges of informing the public in "this new Information Age," and observed that "a healthy culture of communication and transparency between government and the public needs to be established." "This openness, however, does not obviate the necessity of protecting the secrecy of confidential information that, if revealed, could harm the security of the U.S." "While I have long believed that too much material is classified across the federal government as a general rule, an increasingly cavalier attitude towards sensitive information in various quarters can put the lives of our troops at correspondingly increasing risk." During Secretary Rumsfeld's tenure, a growing quantity of formerly public information has been withdrawn from public access. A copy of his July 18 Wall Street Journal article, "War of the Words," may be found here: http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/197 SELECTED CRS REPORTS Some recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "Libraries and the USA PATRIOT Act," updated July 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RS21441.pdf "Coast Guard Deepwater Program: Background and Issues for Congress," updated June 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21019.pdf "Military Base Closures: Role and Costs of Environmental Cleanup," updated June 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22065.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:06:25 -0400 Subject: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:46:27 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Nick there is some very good info here. >However, I would strenuously object to the notion that the >people at Roswell found "a huge field of balloon debris". >Nothing described by Jesse Marcel, or Mac Brazel to his >neighbors and son, gives an indication of balloon debris. >What struck Jesse Marcel is that there was nothing conventional >to be found. Balloons were not then made of very strong very >thin foil like material. >Nothing in the Plains matches balloons either. >The I-Beams that couldn't be broken, bent, or burned, don't match >balloons. >Jesse had taken a course that included work with weather >balloons. >Brazel had found balloons. >Twining's September 1947 SECRET Letter certainly would seem to >have ruled out balloons. Stan I will be the first to admit that we need to answer the question of the unusual debris at Roswell. There are, however, several points I would make: 1. Brazel - who made the original discovery - had _already_ found two weather balloons flown by the military. Is it totally unfeasible that he might have found a third balloon-based military device, even if not for weather-gathering purposes? 2. If you look at Body Snatchers, page 114, the Colonel states that what Brazel found was not just a field of balloon debris and a body but also - and this may be critical - a nine-foot- long piece of "lightweight covering material" from the aircraft that had got "ripped away" from the aircraft when it and the balloon array became catastrophically detached from each other. Therefore, that may explain the difference between balloon debris and other materials both intermingled at one site. 3. Take a look at those 4 links (pictures and data) I posted a few days ago re the experiment to fly a huge blimp/balloon with helicopters fixed to it. Then imagine if this failed in mid-air and the blimp came down with a section of one of the helicopters still attached. If someone found the blimp and then found the helicopter materials too, people would say "Well, that is obviously not balloon materials." And they would be correct because it would be a part of the other device that remained affixed to the blimp. The same scenario could work here. For those that missed this, here are the links again: The Links: http://www.piasecki.com/_borders/pa-97.1.jpg http://www.piasecki.com/images/helstt.gif http://www.piasecki.com/pa-97.htm http://www.time.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,961709,00.html 3. And while I understand that Bessie Brazel Schreiber's testimony has been discussed by Roswell researchers, it is a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:24:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:07:48 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Smith >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' >I propose using one that has been being used by NARCAP for a >long time now. Namely "UAP" or "Unidentified Aerial Phenomena". >This is a seemingly catch-all phrase that seems, at least to me, >more innocuous then the largely misunderstood "UFO". I don't like it, even though it works. "Aerial" requires it to be in the air (unless you use the definition of the term meaning 'imaginary'). It is almost as bad as "flying" but not quite. "Aerial" leaves out underwater phenomena of apparently moving, illuminated objects. And the ones outside the air (in space). "Unidentified" is pretty lazy. If the thing is 'unidentified' and really is just a jet or balloon but we just haven't taken the time or have enough data to PROVE it, it does no one any good. "Anomalous" is better in that it implies that we are really interested in are the ones that deviate from the rule of accepted theories. So all I can get is "Anomalous Perceptible Phenomena", which includes too damn much! Elves, ghosts, Big Foot, floaters, mirages, alien spaceships, vortexes, ESP, dowsing. Covers sight, sound, smell, thought! I've watered it down too much! Maybe UAP is okay after all!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:35:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:09:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Shell >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:46:27 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >However, I would strenuously object to the notion that the >people at Roswell found "a huge field of balloon debris". >Nothing described by Jesse Marcel, or Mac Brazel to his >neighbors and son, gives an indication of balloon debris. >What struck Jesse Marcel is that there was nothing conventional >to be found. Balloons were not then made of very strong very >thin foil like material. >Nothing in the Plains matches balloons either. >The I-Beams that couldn't be broken, bent, or burned, don't match >balloons. >Jesse had taken a course that included work with weather >balloons. >Brazel had found balloons. >Twining's September 1947 SECRET Letter certainly would seem to >have ruled out balloons. Stan, I agree. I've been saying for ten years that the balloon stories just don't work. Jesse Marcel knew damned well what balloons and balloon debris looked like. So did Mac Brazel. They knew that what Brazel had found out on the Foster Ranch was no balloon. I'm not prepared to believe that both Marcel and Brazel were cretinous idiots. I'm really sorry to see this massive red herring being pulled up
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Secrecy News -- 07/20/05 - Correction From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:23:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:13:09 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/20/05 - Correction SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 67 - correction July 20, 2005 ** JUDGE ROBERTS AND THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR (CORRECTION) JUDGE ROBERTS AND THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR (CORRECTION) Supreme Court nominee John Roberts was not named in the Iran/Contra Independent Counsel report, as Secrecy News erroneously reported today. There were two individuals named John Roberts who served in the Reagan Administration -- John G. Roberts, Jr., the former Associate Counsel to the President and present Supreme Court nominee, and John B. Roberts II, who served in the White House political office. It was the latter individual who was named in the Iran/Contra report. Secrecy News regrets the error. _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: What's Good for SETI's Goose... - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:03:05 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:16:27 -0400 Subject: Re: What's Good for SETI's Goose... - Morton >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:45:50 -0700 >Subject: What's Good for SETI's Goose... >Source: http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ >What's Good for SETI's Goose Apparently Isn't Good for >Ufology's Gander! >By Frank Warren 7-18-05 >Once again Seth Shostak has opened mouth and inserted foot. >In the wake of the "Larry King Show" pertaining to the >reality of UFOs, which aired on the 6th of this month, >Shostak who was one of the guests on the show (as a >debunker) recently penned an article, which was published >by Space.com; in it Shostak reconfirms his ignorance on the >subject of Ufology, and some of his statements raise the >question of his aptitude in regards to what he brings to >the table for SETI. <snip> >For whatever the reason, he failed to mention "physical >trace" cases, radar reports in support of eye-witness >testimony, magnetic anomalies in association with UFO >sightings, thermal effects, light effects, forensic >evidence, and finally thousands of pages, if not hundreds >of thousands pages of government documental evidence to >name a few. >Shostak briefly takes time to make light of "Abductees" >plight referring to "scoop marks" often found on their bodies, >asking why "beings from distant suns would come to Earth >to 'melon-ball' the locals." He injects the idea of >"spousal abuse" (as well as others) as the cause of the >skin anomalies. <snip> Seth "Holiday Inn Express" Shostak is an amazing individual. He always claims to know what aliens would or would not do - even though he hasn't communicated with a single one, has never met one, has no idea what their societies might be like, and doesn't even know if they exist. Now he's jumped further into the fray by claiming that since aliens wouldn't travel all this way to melon-ball their abductee victims, the puzzling scoop marks might be caused by spousal abuse. Let me see if I understand this spousal-abuse theory correctly. Husbands get back at their wives by melon-balling the posterior knee joint by painlessly scooping out flesh while the spouse sleeps, and closing the wound, leaving no stitches. Similarly, wives do the same to their husbands, driven by the same instincts. Evidently, the spouse has studied surgical techniques, practiced some melon-balling in the kitchen using real melons, purchased some chloroform to keep the spouse sleeping, purchased a scalpel for making the initial incision, and purchased a super-sharp, surgical quality scooper since a kitchen melon-baller would be far too dull to accomplish the excision. The bedroom becomes the secret operating room of the new, magician surgeons, and no one - not even the spouse - is aware of it. Children are the victims of moms and dads melon-balling their kids because the parents are angry with them and want to punish them (it's 'abuse' remember). These abusive actions often go unnoticed and unreported by the victims for years, since one doesn't normally see or inspect that part of the body. Upon discovering the scoop marks, the victims don't feel abused: they are merely puzzled, thus defeating the wishes of the perverted abuser to cause pain and suffering to the victim. Another terrific theory from Seth Shostak. No wonder he's in charge of SETI! This theory is even less purposeful than the proposal from Carl Spackler (Bill Murray) the assistant groundskeeper in the movie Caddyshack to defeat Judge Smails (Ted Knight) in their little golf tournament by taking a knife and cutting the Judge's Achilles tendons. "When he goes back to swing, with the weight displacement - he won't be able to follow through on anything. He'll QUIT the game!" Even Ty (Chevy Chase) was shocked by the idea. At least Carl's idea would have accomplished something, one imagines. What does the melon-balling of husbands, wives and kids accomplish for the perp? I have a theory: Shostak is the victim of parental abuse where they taught him that up is down, left is right, fantasy is reality, reality is fiction, etc, and it had the effect of mellon-balling the logic circuits of his brain. Did he even graduate from the 7th grade, or did he simply stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night where everyone allegedly becomes smarter overnight? When not acting like a mean-spirited, ultra-dense version of a Conehead, he acts like an ad for a motel chain, but with the Shostak trademark of a "smirk wrapped in a sneer". I don't think even Holiday Inn would be interested in his sevices,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:04:01 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:18:17 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Balaskas >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:56:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:29:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>Since I cannot >>share these pictures via the UFO UpDates list, below is a web >>site which has a picture of this pre-1947 flying wing - which >>has a notable German connection too. Unfortuately both the >>Army Air Force and Northrop records of this flying wing's >>initial tests (which was sometimes towed to high altitudes) in >>the 1940s have been lost! >>http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/northN1M.htm >Hi Nick, >How did you convert a Northrup into a Horton? There were no >Horton's built in the states. <snip> Hi Don! Although no actual Horton flying wings may have been built in the U.S., American versions of these were. Maybe Northrop was inspired by the early work of the Horton brothers in Germany or more likely both were inspired by the many sightings (and crashes?) of UFOs shaped like flying wings or boomerangs. In a once Secret letter since made public through the Freedom of Information Act (see URL below) we read: http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/FlyingWing.htm "In the spring of 1947 Walter Horten heard about the flying wing design in the United states by Northrop and decided to write Northrop for employment. He was answered in the summer of 1947 by a letter in which Northrop pointed out that he, himself, could not do anything to get him over to the States, but that he would welcome it very much if he could come to the United States and take up employment with the firm. He recommended that Walter should get in touch with USAFE Headquarters in Wiesbaden in order to obtain necessary clearance." >This continuing BS about the Horton Flying wing as somehow >explaining away UFO sightings is a waste of time. The Horton >wasn't much faster than many of the prop driven aircraft of the >time and less effective than the ME 262. <snip> I agree. It is much easier to copy proven or advanced technology than to develope something from scratch. Not to downplay the significant aerospace accomplishments of the Russians but their Avia S-92 was a nearly identical copy of the German Messerschmitt Me 262, including the two jet engines; their supersonic Tupolev Tu-144 (or "Concordski") was a copy of the British/French Concorde supersonic passenger airplane; their Buran shuttle was a copy of the American space shuttle, etc. so wouldn't it be logical to conclude that the Germans and the Americans would also try to copy the advanced ET(?) technology of boomerang shaped UFOs that they somehow got their hands on - just like the UFOs that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 An Instant Classic From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:12:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:20:18 -0400 Subject: An Instant Classic Heavenly Lights The Apparitions of Fatima and the UFO Phenomena Dr. Joaquim Fernandes & Fina D'Armada Translated from Portuguese and Edited by Andrew D. Basiago & Eva M. Thompson Foreword by Dr. Jacques F. Vallee EcceNova Editions, Victoria BC 2005 First published in 1982(!) in Portuguese (which has kept it virtually invisible to most of UFOlogical community), this book is now published in translation, complete with an imprimatur in the form of a forward by Jacques Vallee. What do you get if you take away the Christian interpretation from the Fatima apparitions? Only the largest and most dramatic mass UFO sighting in history, witnessed by ~50,000 people! In this meticulous phenomenological presentation, the authors have dug deep into the historical record as only Portuguese speaking researchers could, tracking down accounts from the time in the form of newspapers, meteorological reports, letters written by witnesses to their relatives, and even a couple of eye witnesses still alive when they were doing their research. What is crucial here was going back to the original testimonies and stories. Lucia, the primary "seer" ("experiencer"?), later entered a convent, and her story became progressively more and more attuned to the Catholic paradigm, her writings made subject to approval by Church authorities. The authors have put less emphasis on these later "official" versions, and relied more on the first reports. Lucia originally never said it was the Virgin Mary she saw, it was the adults around her that jumped to that conclusion. Based on the time and culture they lived in, how else could they have interpreted it? What emerges is something far stranger and less easy to interpret than a "simple" Marian apparition. Through careful analysis and comparison with other UFO cases, they show that most if not all elements present in the Fatima apparitions are found throughout the UFO literature as well. Of course the unique element of this case is the mass sighting on October 13, 1917, when a large crowd of approximately 50,000 people including all social classes from farmers to professors and journalists witnessed a whole host of dramatic phenomena involving the sun (or possibly a craft or energy phenomena appearing similar to the sun), strange atmospheric effects, as well as objects traveling through the sky, some apparently with occupants. There is a chapter of statistical analysis of witness testimonies, correlation of descriptions of the event from four towns using trigonometry, as well as discussion of chromatic, thermal and atmospheric effects, mechanical breakdowns, simultaneous cures, and much more. While others have raised the issue of Fatima in relation to the UFO phenomena, this book is the first to my knowledge to present in-depth original research on anything like this scale. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:43:59 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:33:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Balaskas >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:40:55 -0700 >Subject: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >List: >I want to draw your attention to the fact that even the FBI drew >a parallel between the investigation of UFOs in the summer of >1947 and the Japanese Balloon wave of a few years earlier. >The document quoted below shows that in the period of summer >1947 there was a 'mindset' that suggested disc sightings were >not unlike the Japanese Fugo balloon sightings and >investigations of a couple of years earlier. >As per my previous posts, this demonstrates why - possibly - >some people in the official world (even perhaps at the Roswell >Army Air Field) made a psychological association between discs >and balloons in the early period of summer 1947 and why they >might have thought the 2 were connected (hence the Roswell Press >Release). >The following is extracted from a 1947 FBI document: >"It is felt that the situation regarding these flying saucers >and flying disks is very similar to the situation which was >previously encountered by the Bureau during the past war in >handling complaints arising out of the sightings of Japanese >balloons. You will recall that at the inception of these >complaints the Bureau conducted considerable investigation and >located numerous balloons as a cooperative measure for the Army >then informed that these were military weapons and that they >would take over the handling of these completely. This they did >and in an extremely short time issued a big press release as to >the splendid work of the Army in locating these Japanese >balloons. From the information available thus far it does not >appear that these disks should be treated other than as a >military weapon. Certainly the Bureau has no way to determine >what experiments the Army and Navy are conducting and whether >such might be arising out of experiments being conducted by >them, nor do we have any way of determining how far the Russians >have progressed in certain experiments and whether such might be >the results of experiments by the Russian Army." >So, the FBI drew a parallel between investigations into discs in >1947 with investigations into Japanese Fugo Balloons in 1944/45. <snip> Greetings Nick! I can go along that Japanese balloons and UFOs were considered as possible military weapons but to have the FBI consider them as one and the same thing is simply wishful thinking in support of your flawed Roswell UFO crash thesis. Military intelligence experts at Roswell Army Air Field would and the FBI would be able to tell the difference between balloons and UFOs. Why didn't the military or the FBI also make connections between balloons and the ghost rockets of 1945 or with the German (then Russian?) built V-7 saucers?* There was a lot of secret things going shortly after WWII (some are still secret) so by finding more such "parallels" does not really prove anything. Although I may disagree with your conclusions regarding the Roswell UFO crash, your book has sparked much needed debate and forced rethinking of what is still an important incident in UFO history. I predict once the dust has settled, this UFO incident as a real ET(?) event will have been strengthened thanks to you. Nick Balaskas *Along with a letter I found in the UofO archives in Ottawa sent to The Secretary, War Department was a copy of a German newspaper article dated June 7, 1952. A free translation of part of this article states: "...a report of a German V Waffen Engineer, Dr. Richard Miethe,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:24:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:36:33 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:19:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 >>Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' <snip> >>Of course the term UFO puts people off the subject, the >>extra-terrestrial subject that is. >>I absolutely despise the term UFO because it depotentiates the >>idea of extra-terrestrial life, yet, isn't Ufology focused on >>the study of all things ET? >I find it incredible that you are so naive, Sheryl! This is >_exactly_ the attitude that keeps many people away from ufology. >(Including the Australian witness that was under discussion on >the ufologyinuk list recently). ><snip> Joe, sorry, you'll have to explain yourself more clearly here. This dweller from down under has had a bit too much Australian sun I think. What exactly is the attitude that keeps people away from the UFO subject??? And how is it naive? <snip> >>I agree. Kick the term UFO out of Ufology but don't replace it >>with something as equally misleading. What's wrong with Alien or >>ET anyway? >>After all that's what it is about, isn't it? >>Or did I get that wrong after all? Reading some of the posts to >>this List sometimes I wonder? >Yep, you did get that wrong - the purpose of ufology is to >attempt to identify the cause(s) of UFO reports. Hmm, here's a problem... personal interpretation. How do you suppose we get around that one? >That means even >if the cause was something that you would prefer it not to be, >eg the planet Venus, a flock of birds, a satellite, a balloon, >etc. Even those that can't be explained directly in mundane >terms need not necessarily be caused by aliens from Mars. I can >offer at least three alternative explanations to the ETH for any >single case that you care to mention which you will be unable to >disprove, try me if you like. (This is a once-only offer, so >choose any case carefully!). Thanks for the offer Joe but I'll pass. I gave up doing other people's homework years ago. I'm not out to convince anyone of anything any more. I discovered the inner gate of peoples minds will only open when they're ready. I also know I've changed my mind on a lot of things according to new perspectives that I keep evolving, so in another couple of years we might be having this same conversation in reverse. Funny huh? >I think it would serve the interests of genuine ufologists and >people who hold similar views to yourself if you all got >together to form a different field of research - you could call >it "Alienology" for instance and leave ufology alone. You know Joe, that's an excellent thought... really, because I just don't feel like this little round peg can fit into the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Australian Book Launch From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:44:34 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:47:12 -0400 Subject: Australian Book Launch Book Launch Friday 26th August 7.30pm UFO Research Qld YWCA, 147 Wharf St, Brisbane Looking Through Eyes Of Love By Judy Carroll ISBN: 1921005440 Her earliest memory of an alien encounter took place when she was three years old. Hand in hand she walked with a Grey onto a ship. In the following years she had frequent encounters with extraterrestrial beings; waking with wounds and blisters on her legs and with strangers in her room. Behind the fiction of Judy Carroll's debut novel is a lifetime of experience and solid research into crop circles, ET implants and the history of human/ET/universal evolution. 'Looking Through eyes of Love' sets out to challenge the way we think of extraterrestrial encounters. Told from an ET's point of view it is a refreshing approach to mankind's long-time fascination with the unknown. "Our disc skimmed the sandy surface of the planet travelling at a steady and moderate speed.This was a reconnaissance flight" But their designated flight path sent Alarca and her crew into the heart of raging storm. Her mind slipped; she lost control for only a second but it was enough. She died at the hands of the humans that pulled her from the wreckage. Several years on, Alarca has been reincarnated as a human in order to carry out her mission, but she has forgotten her alien history. On her thirteenth birthday an elder approaches her and she finally finds the source of the dreams and powers that have haunted her since birth. 'Looking Through Eyes of Love' explores not only the evidence that life is out there, but our own beliefs about God and science as we examine the relationship between Ally and her childhood friend, Paco- a catholic priest. This book has contains factual information regarding many unexplained phenomena. It's a fascinating read for both the contactees and those seeking to dip their toes in strange waters for the first time. For more information please phone Samsara at Zeus Publications, Gold Coast, Australia on 07 5575 5141 or Fax 07 5575 5142 Samara Kelly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:50:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:51:41 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Maccabee >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: The Acronym 'UFO' >http://scoopjupiter.blogspot.com/2005/07/acronym-ufo.html >There has much discussed lately about the path of Ufology and >how difficult it is to garner serious study from mainstream >science. >I just wonder sometimes if it isn't the acronym "UFO" itself >that is always putting people off of the subject. If you ask >someone if they believe in UFOs I can guarantee that the extreme >majority will instantly think you are asking if they believe in >alien spaceships. >I think that maybe it's time to try to retire that word. >All serious researchers know that the acronym merely means >"Unidentified Flying Objects" but they also know that a very >large percentage of these "objects" aren't necessarily objects >at all (refracted/reflected light?) or may not even be "flying" >(Venus?). >I propose using one that has been being used by NARCAP for a >ong time now. Namely "UAP" or "Unidentified Aerial Phenomena". >This is a seemingly catch-all phrase that seems, at least to me, >more innocuous then the largely misunderstood "UFO". >Ufology may not be able to continue in its present course unless >it gets a face-lift. The word UFO won't be "retired." It is "too ubquitous." For this reason I coined a "word" that indicates that a report remains unexplained after investigtion: TRUFO (TRue UFO).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: What's Good for SETI's Goose... - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:49:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:54:39 -0400 Subject: Re: What's Good for SETI's Goose... - Maccabee >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:45:50 -0700 >Subject: What's Good for SETI's Goose... >Source: http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ >What's Good for SETI's Goose Apparently Isn't Good for Ufology's >Gander! >By Frank Warren 7-18-05 >Once again Seth Shostak has opened mouth and inserted foot. In >the wake of the "Larry King Show" pertaining to the reality of >UFOs, which aired on the 6th of this month, Shostak who was one >of the guests on the show (as a debunker) recently penned an >article, which was published by Space.com; in it Shostak >reconfirms his ignorance on the subject of Ufology, and some of >his statements raise the question of his aptitude in regards to >what he brings to the table for SETI. <snip> >After priming "his debunking pump" he then begins his narrative >of his participation on the King show; he furthers the party >line by referencing photographs of "putative saucers hovering at >ow altitudes" which appeared to be "out-of-focus lights, while >others resembled hubcap-shaped Frisbees caught in mid- >rajectory" as the primary evidence offered by leading >Ufologists. >Point in fact, Shostak has repeatedly, and publicly admitted >his "lack of participation" of research into the UFO >phenomenon, so it's understandable that one might get a >chuckle when reading his criticism of Dr. Bruce Maccabee who >aside from earning a Ph. D. in physics, also began working at >the Naval Surface Warfare Center doing "optical data >processing" amongst other things. Dr. Maccabee has been >studying the UFO phenomena for over 40 years. During the 14th of July I sent the following message to the SETI Institute at address jbugnatto.nul "Please forward this to Seth Shostak: A (but not necessarily "the") response to your recent article about the Geat UFODebate is at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Marfa Keeps Its Lights On From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:14:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:03:50 -0400 Subject: Marfa Keeps Its Lights On This article appeared in both The Dallas Morning News and The Mount Associated Press, 17 July 2005 Marfa Keeps Its Lights On Enduring Mystery In West Texas Baffles Scientists, Intrigues Visitors MARFA, Texas -- Watchers start converging about dusk on a desolate spot in the West Texas desert with a ridge view and an expanse of 20 miles of treeless rangeland. With darkness to the east and the remnants of a spectacular sunset to the west, the first cries erupt. "Look! Look!" Fingers point. Binoculars get fine-tuned. A few cameras click. All the attention focuses on specks of brilliance. Legend. Myth. Natural Phenomenon. UFOs? Whatever's out there sparkling or dancing across Mitchell Flat and toward the Chinanti Mountains has both befuddled people and attracted them to this remote area east of Marfa for well over a century. "I just want to see for myself and say I saw them," said James Teems, 61, of Hobbs, NM. "I thought we'd come over and look," said his wife, Fern, 59. "Looks like campfires." That was the same description in the 1800s when cowboys and pioneers first noticed the lights. According to numerous accounts, they speculated they were campfires or signal fires from Apaches who roamed around Texas' Big Bend. But, as the legend has it, when folks went over for a closer inspection, they found no sign of fires. And still haven't. "I'm having a hard time believing no one knows what it is," said Mike Thompson of San Angelo, Texas. The lights on a recent pair of June evenings appeared to float above the horizon, dip and occasionally flare. At times, there were two or three simultaneously. They generally moved left to right, up and down. Then there were periods of no lights. "It looks like car lights," one woman said. But the lights were here before cars and even before electricity reached the region. There are numerous theories on what causes the phenomenon. Moonlight or mica veins sparkling off the mountains. Swamp gas. Static electricity. Atmospheric conditions created by warm and cold layers of air bending light rays that only can be seen from afar. Then there are the ghosts of the Conquistadores looking for gold, or the old Apache explanation of stars dropping to Earth. "I have seen strange lights that moved oddly and were definitely not on the ground," said Bernie Zelazney with the Big Bend Astronomical Society. Mr. Zelazney said one explanation is called the piezoelectric effect, where voltage is created between moving solid surfaces -- in this case, rock containing quartz that contracts and expands as the surface heats and cools. "There's a lot of quartz in the mountains out there," he said. The effect was discovered by Pierre Curie in 1883, coincidentally the same year rancher Robert Reed Ellison is credited with the first disclosure of the Marfa Lights. Local folks have stories of lights following them or bearing down on them as they travel lonely U.S. Highway 90 between Alpine and Marfa. About a 10-minute drive east of town, the Texas Department of Transportation has build a roadside rest stop, the "Marfa Mystery Lights Viewing Area", according to the road sign. It's where the nightly gathering of the curious assembles, with everything from motorcycles to tractor-trailer rigs filling the free parking area. "I'd heard about it for years," said Jack Phillips, 52, who was touring the area by motorcycle with his wife and stopped for the show. "You can't beat the price. I think it's somebody on the hill," Christi Collier, 54, of Austin offerred while gazing at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Australian Top-End X-Files Revealed From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:09:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:09:41 -0400 Subject: Australian Top-End X-Files Revealed Source: NEWS.Com.au - Surry Hills New South Wales, Australia http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16000752-13762,00.html July 21, 2005 Top-End X-Files Revealed By Eric Tlozek Secret documents released by the Northern Territory Government reveal a mass of UFO sightings across the Top End, many of them unexplained. The documents - declassified after 30 years under lock and key - detail a history of UFO activity across the Territory by a wide range of 'sighters', including RAAF crews and weather forecasters. The files were classified and only became available to the public from the National Archives in Darwin, after 30 years. One sighting, by the crew of a RAAF Hercules in Darwin in 1968, also appeared on radar, although no known aircraft was identified in the area at the time. The crew described a series of lights which crossed their take- off path from Darwin airport, with no visible fuselage or structure. RAAF command in Sydney said the contact may have been a foreign aircraft. "The fact the sighting was made by an RAAF aircrew and detected by the aircraft's radar leaves very little doubt ... (that something) was in the area," RAAF command said. "As the aircraft has not been identified, a violation of our national airspace cannot be discounted." Another of the secret documents, obtained by the Australian UFO Research Association, describes a sighting by a weather bureau forecaster at Daly Waters in November, 1966. The forecaster was tracking a weather balloon with a theodolite when he noticed a flying object in the sky. He reported sighting a metallic-grey, oblong object flying at high altitude. A check with the aircraft control office in Darwin revealed there were no aircraft in the area at the time. A third file reports the sighting of a saucer-shaped object by a group of nurses in Alice Springs in 1967. The nurses spotted the UFO in the middle of the day and said it was a silver colour with a copper band around the centre. UFO archivist Dominic McNamara said there were many NT sightings but most were unsubstantiated. "The NT is a hot-spot for sightings particularly because of its remoteness," Mr McNamara said. "But the cases where people actually see substantial objects and can describe them are the ones that stand out."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Horton Gliders [was: More Questions On 'Body From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:27:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:17:00 -0400 Subject: Horton Gliders [was: More Questions On 'Body >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:34:04 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:29:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/northN1M.htm >It is a Northrop N-1M, with no relation to any Horten model. I >have several pictures of the Northrop flying wings of the time. >the N-1M, and the N9M-1 which crashed in 1943. >In 1944, Northrop developped the jet-propelled XP-79B, with >only one prototype built which crashed at Muroc in 1945. Another >Northrop project was the flying bomb MX-543, inspired from the >German V-1, during the same period. The tests were disastrous, >according to aviation history books. Next came the famous XB-35. >These are not mysterious crafts. >As for the Horten, yes, there was actually a model which flew >in the US. It was a small glider, the Horten IV, which was >tested by the British, who in turn sold it to a private owner in >the United States. Later, the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz >flew it at a competition in 1952 (The American National Soaring >Contest). Nothing mysterious there either. Hi Gildas, As you say, nothing mysterious. The German's excelled in designing gliders - sailplane, as some call them - even well after World War Two, mostly because they got a head start due to the war reparations and restrictions imposed on them after World War one. They got around the training of pilots who would eventually fly fighters, which were forbidden by the treaty, by teaching them to fly gliders which were pushed to the limit in design to maximize performance, well before the war. It was a simple matter when they unilaterally tore up the treaty and built - what for that time - was a huge airforce. It was a simple matter for these glider pilots to get certified on fighters and bombers. The world saw the results. At any rate, the Germans made great leaps in sailplane design as a result. Horton was in on the ground floor so it was only natural that they would have pursued some glider engineering for whatever their purpose.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Illegal Aliens? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:11:05 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:21:28 -0400 Subject: Illegal Aliens? Here's one story I've been reluctant to relay but a pal who is an old time Ufologist bade me do so. He had asked me about what was going on in Mexico as he had read the reports of the never-ending sightings down there. Then I had to 'fess up to something several Mexican neighbors of mine told me. Since I can walk out my front door, take a few steps and ask any number of folks from Mexico, that I know, about anything Mexican. I of course asked about the UFO flaps. As the conversations segued back and forth about the controversy about the mass border-crossings, one chap looked at me sternly and said, "Jobs ain't the only reason we come here. It's to get away from all those UFOs!" He had a word they use for UFOs and ETs, but I forgot it. The others acknowledged him and at first I thought he was joking, but I asked another group of the guys who hang out in the parking lot of one of the hardware stores nearby. Yep, same thing. They said UFO stories, news reports and close encounters of all kinds have folks in Mexico quite stirred up. Again they reiterated that that was another main reason they make it to the U.S.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Body Snatchers Review From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:34:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:34:51 -0400 Subject: Body Snatchers Review Source: Raiders News Update - Sisters, Oregon http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/heiser3.htm 20 July 2005 Guest Opinions & Editorials Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story Nick Redfern, (Paraview-Pocket Books, a division of Simon & Schuster, 2005) Reviewed by Michael S. Heiser, Ph.D., Biblical Hebrew and Ancient Semitic Languages (Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison); author of The Facade; www.michaelsheiser.com www.sitchiniswrong.com In last month=92s newsletter I directed readers to links for Nick Redfern=92s important articles on his very human explanation of the Roswell event. I also included Stanton Friedman=92s review of Nick=92s book. My interest, of course, was due primarily to the fact that Nick=92s view was essentially the same as I put forth four years ago in The Facade - that the bodies connected with the Roswell event were human unfortunates used by the "sanitized Nazis" crawling through the corridors of our nation=92s defense and aerospace industries. As promised, I have now read Nick=92s book for myself and offer this review. In the course of sharing my thoughts, I think it=92s important to interact with Stanton Friedman=92s review. Stanton=92s stature and expertise in this area are unquestioned. However, I believe that his dismissal of Nick=92s position is hardly on firm footing, being built on inconsistent reasoning and deflecting attention away from the most salient details. Since he is the top researcher on this issue, and since he did write a review of Redfern=92s book, he=92s the best person to interact with concerning my own thoughts. But before getting into the details, an overview is in order. In simplified terms, Redfern believes what happened at Roswell involves the intersection of several programs being conducted by Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and our own government during WWII and the years immediately following. These programs were: 1. The Japanese Fugo balloon program 2. =96 This program involved the use of experimental high altitude balloons as weapons. The goal was to launch these balloons from Japan in such a way as to ensure that they would be carried by the winds over the western United States. The intended payload on these balloons were lethal biotoxins. 9,000 such balloons were launched in the initial phase of the plan, complete with ingenious explosive devices. A few reached U.S. soil, and there were a few casualties. The press wisely obeyed military gag orders on these events, and so the Japanese were kept from ever finding out if their balloon bombs were effective. The nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought the war to an end before the Japanese could send the Fugo ballons with bioweapons. Learning about all this has renewed my confidence in our nuclear decision to end the war. Japan=92s Unit 731 3. =96 One of the more infamous atrocity mills of WW II. Unit 731 was an officially sanctioned and funded bioweapons program / facility headquartered in Harbin, Manchuria. Headed by Shiro Ishii, Unit 731 has become synonymous with human experimentation for those who know of its existence. Experiments on human beings (or "logs" as they were referred to) involving live human vivisection, effects of frostbite, high altitude pressurization exposure to bioweapons, flamethrowers, and explosives were routine. These experiments included U.S. POWs. This Unit was the potential source of the bioweapons to be used for the Fugo balloon project. Operation PAPERCLIP 4. =96 The now well-known program begun under the Truman administration to bring Nazi scientists to U.S. soil for their knowledge and expertise. As Nick demonstrates, the program eventually included Japanese scientists. However, even prior to the "heyday" of PAPERCLIP, the U.S. government, with the approval of Douglas MacArthur, was soliciting and procuring Unit 731 scientists for their advanced knowledge of bioweapons and their effect on human beings. Nick marshals brief, but weighty, evidence that both Nazis and Unit 731 scientists who engaged in human experimentation made it into this country and wound up on the U.S. payroll. Nazi Advanced Wingless Aircraft / the Horten Brothers "UFO" Development 5. =96 This refers to the work of Reimer and Walter Horten, mainly toward the end of the war, to produce a flight-worthy wingless disk aircraft. Although models were tested and commissioned by the Luftwaffe in 1944-45, the war ended before the Nazis could more perfectly develop and mass produce the model. The Horten craft was discovered by the British, after which the Horten brothers were invited to Britain to continue their work. An agreement between the two and Britain could not be reached, and the Hortens returned to Germany in 1945. NEPA (Nuclear Energy for Propulsion Aircraft) 6. =96 This program focused on developing nuclear energy for the propulsion of aircraft. One of the significant obstacles with achieving the project goal was shielding pilots from radiation. Another problem was constructing a reactor light enough and small enough for an aircraft. A sub-problem for the testing involving the protection of occupants from radiation was that, eventually, human occupants would have to be put at risk. Redfern argues that, in the wake of the 1947 close of the Nuremberg trials=97which called for the end of human experimentation=97those involved in our testing program felt rushed to gain official permission to use human subjects. Attempts were made to procure legislation allowing human experimentation. Documentation indicates that, eventually, prisoners and mental patients from U.S jails and institutions were used, along with dead bodies snatched from morgues and hospitals without consent of surviving kin. This body snatching program was dubbed Project Sunshine. Of particular relevance for Redfern=92s thesis is the documentary evidence that certain "specimens" were procured from Formosa, home of Unit 731. The intersection of all the above offered by Redfern can be briefly described as follows. Roswell was a PAPERCLIP screw-up. The "UFO" was in reality a wingless craft launched from a U.S. base in the southwest via a high altitude Fugo balloon. These craft were occupied by either a Japanese crew (no one over five feet tall) or human unfortunates being utilized for testing purposes. Two or more of these craft crashed at Roswell and other nearby locations, explaining the multiple site / multiple date problem pointed to by skeptics as conflicting (and therefore unreliable) testimony. The bodies were human, but physically unusual to those who discovered them. The victims were small, perhaps oriental, or perhaps unfortunates who suffered from progeria or Turner=92s syndrome (which involved baldness, enlarged head, and even polydactylism). The UFO explanation was floated to the public to deflect attention away from the fact that Nazis and other Japanese war criminals were on our payroll. After the late forties, the UFO scenario proved useful for misdirecting the Soviets, and so the myth was continued. Redfern supports this reconstruction in a twofold way: actual de-classified documents and clandestine sources. My only criticism of the book pertains to a small point about the documentation, so I mention it here before proceeding. I would have liked to see Redfern give more details as to where he got the documentary evidence. That annoyance aside, in my view, he does a good job in laying out the details of the above reconstruction from his inside sources, and then proceeds to systematically corroborate data points with physical (documentary) evidence. For example, his book contains documentation for the adaptation of the Fugo program at U.S. military facilities (including a Japanese crew), a far-reaching program of radiation testing involving U.S. citizens as guinea pigs, procurement of Japanese war criminals from Unit 731 under PAPERCLIP, and human experimentation involving the handicapped, retarded, children, dwarfs, and victims of progeria. Redfern also adds some startling correlative evidence to support his reconstruction. For example, Dr. Lincoln Lapaz, long suspected to have been involved in the Roswell incident because of witness testimony, was actually the leading U.S. expert on Fugo balloons. There are of course others, even down to how these experimental programs were utilizing exotic materials that account for some of the more dramatic Roswell testimony=97like metal that "remembered" its original shape. Space prevents more than passing mention of the details of such details. What does all this add up to? On one hand, there is strong documentary evidence for Redfern=92s thesis. It is coherent and has powerful explanatory value. On the other hand, most of the specific connections to Roswell itself come from inside sources=97witnesses to events who either want to remain unnamed, or who must be taken at their word. The question the reader will have to answer is whether this is sufficient for providing the "final answer" for the Roswell story. In my mind, this reconstruction covers every significant data point in the Roswell legend. All that remains is documenting each point. Nick has documented a number of the points, and so work remains. Not everyone agrees, naturally. A few weeks ago during the events at the UFO festival, I ran into Stanton Friedman at breakfast and asked him about Nick=92s book. Stan=92s response seemed focused on the apparent lack, in his mind, of any specific evidence connecting the data points of the book to Roswell specifically. In other words, the following facts don=92t impress Stanton: 1. a whole range of data points that account for all the "assuredly alien" aspects of the Roswell story can be documented; 2. the collective documentation of the above data points (wingless craft, high altitude balloon, human experimentation, radiation experiments) allows the researcher to locate programs and their personnel at bases in the southwest well within flight-testing range of Roswell; 3. the personnel involved include notable scientists operating under the aegis of PAPERCLIP; 4. all the above was true in the summer of 1947. Apparently what Stanton wants is some sort of document that explicitly mentions all the above with the name Roswell at the right dates. Personally, his response made me wonder about two things. First, what non-alien explanation or body of documentary evidence would convince Stan that he is wrong on Roswell? I=92m not trying to be cynical, but I can imagine him picking to death any document (or truckload of documents) that really did come clean about the whole thing if the final explanation wasn=92t alien ("the use of the semicolon in this document makes me question its authenticity"). I=92m not trying to impugn Stanton=92s motives or character. He=92s one of the few people in this field that I still think consciously try to operate with integrity. It=92s just human nature when so much of one=92s life is invested in a subject to want more evidence than is (perhaps) reasonably warranted before changing one=92s mind. It=92s normal. It should go without saying that the U.S. government has seen to it that no one will ever find an explicit record of what happened at Roswell. The close of the late Congressman Schiff=92s attempts to get as much speak loudly in this regard. The alternative is that one must work with the pieces and ask if any other explanation has as much explanatory power. In this regard, I would hope Stanton would realize that the Roswell case does not the entire alien issue make. That brings me to my second musing. I also wondered what Stanton could offer to undermine the explanatory value of Redfern=92s view (which I share). In other words, what does the alien view really have going for it, and how can it be defended against Nick=92s work? We=92ll take the negative aspect first. In his review of Redfern=92s book, Stanton suggests that the whistleblowers Redfern relies on might turn out to be as bogus as others who have come down the pike. It=92s a logical question, but it creates the impression that Redfern=92s reconstruction depends on these sources when it doesn=92t. While an explicit connection to Roswell does depend on these sources, Stanton=92s criticism doesn=92t disprove the thesis. It merely highlights a point that needs more evidence. Stanton also takes Redfern to task a bit over the NEPA program. He says: "Nick has also been given a bum steer about the NEPA project and the radiation shielding problems associated with it. He states that the project was cut back in 1957 and finally cancelled in 1961 after President Kennedy took office. In actuality, the GE ANP (General Electric Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program) was at fullest bloom in the 1956-1960 time frame. I know because I worked there in the Radiation shielding unit as a nuclear physicist from September 1956 until November 1959. The budget for 1958 alone was $100,000,000. 3500 people were employed full time of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists. This was far more money and manpower than was spent at Fairchild and Oak Ridge in the late 1940s and early 1950s." And elsewhere: "Nick keeps referring to concerns about radioactivity and contamination. These were not the shielding concerns. Instead, it was the neutrons and gamma rays emitted by the reactor that were of concern. Usually split shielding was to be used with some all around the reactor (typically under 3 feet long and 5 feet in diameter) and more placed between the crew compartment, typically far ahead in the airplane, and the reactor. There was also serious concern about both neutrons and gamma rays leaving the reactor shield assembly in directions other than towards the crew, but being scattered by both the atmosphere and structures past the crew shielding." These responses strike me as odd because of their methodological inconsistency. Stanton Friedman=92s work has done much to certify the high degree of compartmentalization that exists in classified projects. Are we to assume that at the time he was employed at Oak Ridge such compartmentalization did not exist, so that he had comprehensive knowledge of everything that was going on at that location? How is it that the documentation Redfern produces about shielding concerns contradicts Stanton=92s assertion above? Did everyone at or above Stanton=92s level on the project agree that radiation was not a shielding concern? How would he know if another team on the project had concerns or not? How does any of this allow Stanton (or us) to know what the concerns were in the late forties? Even if Stanton=92s criticisms are unimpeachable, the reader should note that they don=92t actually refute any point of Redfern=92s thesis. Should we conclude Redfern=92s thesis falls apart because one of his sources can=92t recall the exact budgetary figures and spending trends in the late fifties and early sixties? This kind of "refutation" in Stanton=92s review is nitpicking. It is a red herring that directs the reader=92s attention away from the fact that Nick=92s panoply of data points still stands. It is like drawing the conclusion that the restaurant you=92re at serves awful food because the knife in your place setting is not completely parallel to your spoon. Consider another example: "Nick does point to various human tests of aviation biology associated with planes flying higher and faster, how to bail out at high altitude and speed without freezing, how to provide protection against excessive acceleration, low air pressure, low temperatures at altitude, cold water when winding up in the ocean. However he never mentions that there was a lot of research being done on biological effects of radiation because of the need to know how quickly ground crews could go in on a battlefield on which a nuclear weapon had been exploded. How high would radiation levels be in aircraft that had either dropped a nuclear weapon or had to fly near the mushroom clouds of a weapon dropped by somebody else?" Okay - radiation testing was also conducted to answer these questions. How does any of this tarnish Redfern=92s thesis? And lastly: "Nick is clearly aware of the testimony of Major Jesse Marcel of what was observed on the Foster Ranch and of Barney Barnett in the plains of San Augustine. A big Japanese balloon and a Horton flying wing don't fill the bill. Most Horton craft were actually made out of wood, but there was nothing about the wing and balloon that matched the eyewitness testimony and the complete absence of conventional components as noted by Jesse -- nor the huge area covered by the small pieces of wreckage. Nick accepts the testimony of the late Frank Kaufmann about the shape of a saucer from north of Roswell. He seems unaware that Frank's original testimony about the shape seems to have been taken from a drawing on the cover of Popular Mechanics of the TR 3 airplane, and that Frank's testimony has been totally discredited, even by his formerly staunchest proponent, Dr. Kevin Randle." Several points of observation are worth making. First, it would be unwarranted to argue that no evidence of an experimental balloon was found at Roswell. Kal Korff=92s work has demonstrated this, among others. I am not suggesting that Korff is correct on all counts=97but I am suggesting that he isn=92t wrong on every count. Second, while Stanton may be correct (and I do not know for sure) that "most Horton craft were actually made out of wood," Redfern isn=92t claiming that the Roswell craft was "an original Horten"=97the claim is that the Horten design was brought here via PAPERCLIP scientists and other intelligence channels and adapted. This criticism is therefore pointless, as is the implication extracted from it: "...there was nothing about the wing and balloon that matched the eyewitness testimony and the complete absence of conventional components as noted by Jesse =85" This only holds if one assumes a wooden craft. Third, I would like to know why Redfern=92s Fugo balloon-plus-disk-shaped-non- alien-craft cannot account for the size of the debris field while a Friedman-disk-shaped-alien-craft a couple dozen feet in diameter can. Do aliens just pack more junk into their saucers? This objection seems incoherent. Lastly, it matters not where Frank Kaufmann got his recollection of the shape of the craft, or if he saw it at all. There are other witnesses who testify that they saw a disk shaped craft at the other crash site associated with the Roswell incident (cf. the bodies laying outside). If it was an adapted Horten disk, how would the recollection of others as to the curved shape undermine what Redfern is saying? The rejection of Kaufmann=92s remarks is another red herring. This brings me to the "positive" angle of the alien view that opposes Redfern=92s thesis: What does the alien view really have going for it? The answer, if Redfern is correct, is "nothing." The answer in terms of where we are at now=97living with the absence of an explicit document that might satisfy Stanton Friedman=97is "not much." The fact is that Redfern=92s thesis can account for all the "alien" features already noted. The only item that even remotely stands in the way is the Majestic documents. Redfern does comment on these documents and suspects they are fakes, deliberately handed over to distract researchers from the real, horrible story he erects. Toward that end he makes some interesting speculations about the role of Bill Moore with respect to these documents and his role in the disinformation campaign against Paul Bennewitz. But speculations they remain. I suspect that these documents are not as much of an obstacle as one might think even if they are authentic. I doubt that these documents have ever been systematically searched with PAPERCLIP, its personnel, and its operational locations in mind. I am willing to bet that some of Redfern=92s names, places, and programs would be found in these documents, and that these documents could be interpreted in a way that supports Redfern=92s thesis. On the other hand, the documents may be fraudulent (in whole or in part). If they were subjected, for example, to stylometric linguistic analysis (and I do not mean forensic examinations of the kind that examines numbering styles, paper, ink, typewriter keys, etc.), they may disappear altogether from the picture, leaving the alien view with nothing to commend it. But until that happens, if Redfern=92s explanation for the bodies be allowed, the unusual anatomical features actually mentioned in the documents can be accounted for (eye covering, head size, extra fingers and toes, even genital anomalies). The fact is even the best of these documents is not terribly specific or forensically precise; they are just surface observations that cannot compel us to say with certainty that the bodies were alien and could not have been a human unfortunate of one of the types Redfern documents were used in human experimentation for radiation testing. So where does this leave us? In my judgment, Redfern has presented a compelling though imperfect and incomplete case that potentially has comprehensive explanatory value. Yes, I=92d love
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 AUFORN News No.2 From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:26:12 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:20:24 -0400 Subject: AUFORN News No.2 AUFORN News No.2 AUFORN Visits The United States April 2005 After leaving the UK we arrived in the USA and just as a matter of interest and so you all know this as we weren=92t informed, when you get to the US the first thing they do in the form of a welcome is to "fingerprint you and take your photo", yes folks we are now officially on some kind of data bank?? Nowhere else in the world that we have visited did they do this and I read in a local newspaper that US Home Land Security staff are being reported for intimidating behaviour and scaring tourists away, interesting?! UFO Encounter Area 51 After a good night=92s sleep it was time to pick up the rental car and drive out to Las Vegas. We spent three days in Las Vegas, did what we had to then set out on our adventure to Rachel. The town of Rachel is located in Sand Spring Valley, in the southern Nevada high desert, along the world=92s only Extraterrestrial Highway aka Hwy 375. http://rachel.dreamlandresort.com/rachel.html#RachelView http://rachel.dreamlandresort.com/ethighway.html It is located about 115 miles northwest of Las Vegas, separated from it by the restricted area around the Nellis Ranges, and about 27 miles north of the top secret Air Force Base Area 51. Rachel was founded in May 1973 by D.C. Day, who owned an alfalfa farm in the valley. The town was first called Tempiute Village, then Sand Springs. Later, when the population grew, thanks to the reopening of the nearby tungsten mine in Tempiute Mountain, it was named Rachel. While staying in Rachel we decided to do a nightwatch so we set out around 9.45 pm. It was a lovely clear night, no clouds and plenty of stars. On the way up the road, two bright lights appeared at the top of the road. Robert and I thought it could be a truck parked at the top. The road to Groom Lake Road is long and straight with only a couple of turn-offs. As we got closer to the light, the lights went out, but we didn=92t think too much about it other than Robert commented, "We should notice if a truck was travelling down any road as the area is quite flat and the lights will stand out". As we got closer to the top of the rise there was no sign of a truck. We made camp at the top of Groom Lake Road with a couple from Reno we had met back at Pat=92s. Thinking we wouldn=92t see anything as Pat, the owner of the Alien Inn, told us nothing had happened for months, we were very casual about getting set up. We were only there for five minutes when a light appeared above the mountain range. The light was very bright and orange in colour. Another light travelled from the top of the ridge that we had passed over on our way to the top of Groom Lake Road. The light travelled so fast and pulled up on a dime, which was amazing to see. I grabbed my camcorder and started to film the light on the hill when another light travelled from the same direction as the last light and again stopped on a dime. Then the Reno couple commented they had never seen anything like it and this was the first time they had seen any kind of UFO. Unfortunately I was only able to catch a few minutes of video as the object disappeared quite quickly. The couple from Reno decided that was enough for them so they packed up and we both drove back towards the Inn but Robert decided he wanted to stay in the area for another half hour. As we drove Robert saw the area begin to glow bright orange so he said, "Diane, pull over". I parked the car and we watched bright beams of light shoot up into the heavens. Robert tried to get the attention of the Reno couple but they seemed to be focused at getting back to Rachel as they drove right past us at incredible speed. I said to Robert that they must have seen the beams of light and got scared. Then the whole area started to glow orange and the object appeared again on the horizon. This time a sound came from the area; a sound which was more like a vibration. The sound travelled towards us and when it reached us, it felt like it passed through us. At that point I personally started to get a little worried, but Robert wanted to stay longer. Then, having thoughts of people disappearing in the dessert, I said, "Come on Robert, people have a habit of disappearing in deserts". We got in the car and drove back to Rachel. On arrival we looked for the other couple and their RV but it was nowhere to be seen, so we went to our cabin and bedded down for the night. What happened during the night is another story which I will cover in my next column. The next morning we woke and went for breakfast with camcorder in-hand as I was keen to show Pat the footage. While having breakfast Chuck Clark, author of the Area 51 & S4 handbook walked in and Pat asked me to show Chuck the footage. I asked what Chuck thought the object could be and he said, "Just the same old stuff seen around here". With that thought in mind I was more than keen to get on the road to visit Death Valley. Disclosure Australia Project The Disclosure Australia Project Newsletter 24 has been posted at: http://disclosure.freewebpage.org This issue contains: * Previously unseen memos about the 1953 Drury film located on a formely "Secret" file of the former Department of Civil Aviation * The search for a pre 1953 RAAF DAFI UFO file - number "SEC CD2/2" * Information found on two RAAF HQ Darwin files which have not been seen before by UFO researchers. For more details and information refer to the Disclosure Australia website at: http://disclosure.freewebpage.org or http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Disclosure_Australia.html A Tasmanian UFO Mystery Thank you Keith Roberts for this report on Regatta Day UFO Sightings. Introduction "UFO Mystery Deepens" said the Hobart newspaper, The Mercury, on 19 February 2005. The article referred to a UFO sighting that had taken place the previous Regatta Day holiday weekend. The UFO sighting near Melton Mowbray in the southern Midlands of Tasmania, had remained unexplained despite considerable enquiries by the Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre (TUFOIC). The resultant publicity brought forth a number of reports, complicated by a series of lights cases over Hobart=92s waterside suburbs. These lights were soon dismissed by the Police (and TUFOIC) as the work of persons unknown letting off parachute flares. Sifting through the data collected it became apparent that a mini-flap had occurred in the period late December to February. This was the best sighting flap in the state since 1998. Prior to the media coverage of the Melton Mowbray case, the Centre had only received three unexplained reports during all of 2004. A couple of cases emerged before the publicity, but it is a concern that without any media assistance, the bulk of the sightings would have remained unreported. Needless to say, the Centre would have been ignorant of the activity occurring on its own doorstep. Just how many UFO sightings happen without us knowing about it? Sightings commence The southern Midlands stretches north from Hobart=92s northern suburbs, being mainly rural with areas of bush-covered hills, steep rocky gullies, and mountains from 600 to above 900 metres. The main north-south highway stretches through the area carrying traffic from Hobart to the north and northwest of the state. The district is also home to many who commute to the city to work but prefer to live in the open country. The flap got away to a fairly low-key start the evening of 25 December 2004 at Molesworth. A group of people were relaxing outside when a star-like light was seen in the area of Orion. At first it was assumed to be a satellite or shooting star. However, the light continued on a path across the northern sky before coming to a halt. The light then reversed direction going out of sight into the northeast sky at an increased speed. The bemused witnesses saw the same or similar light some minutes later performing the same manoeuvre, crossing the sky, then going away to the northeast. This performance was repeated on one more occasion before it disappeared for good. The first real puzzle of the flap came three days later in the early hours of 28 December near the historic town of Richmond. Anne (1) and her young son were returning from a trip to the East Coast. Her partner was following in a second car some distance behind. She noticed a distant bright light in the northwest sky. She thought it must be an aircraft enroute to Hobart, but was puzzled by its movement back and forth in the sky. Anne continued heading home until she reached the hill into Richmond. Passing the Brinktop reserve, she found that the light was approaching rapidly. Within seconds it was passing over the road just ahead so she slowed down and stopped the car. The big light looked to be two to three metres across with a dark area in the centre with a red and blue light below blinking rapidly. The object was now moving over a brow about 200 metres distant, and as it did so a beam of light came from the centre of the object and was moving about on the ground below. The next thing Anne knew was that for thirty seconds her car was all lit up by the beam, then everything went dark and the bright object just seemed to have vanished like a light being turned off. Anne=92s partner now came over the hill and arrived at the scene. He had seen a distant light but had not taken much notice. Nothing else occurred until just after midnight on 18 January 2005. This time the witness was driving to her home just north of Brighton. She turned left off the main highway and was immediately confronted by a strange green football-sized light, which had a rigid green tail. The light was seen initially out of the driver=92s window, and then it was seemingly just above the car. The witness said the car seemed to lose power at this stage but as she drove over the rise about half a kilometre from the highway, the light had disappeared ahead. Some minutes later, the witness pulled into her driveway and saw the green light moving rapidly from a northerly direction. She parked the car and got out for a look; at this point the light did a U turn and disappeared in seconds into the area of Orion. The scene moves north for the next report from Legana, ten kilometres north of Launceston. Our two witnesses were up early around 4.30 am when they saw a bright =91something=92 in the southeast. Mr L (1) raced inside to get his binoculars for a close inspection as the bright object was moving northwards. Through the binoculars he could see a basically cylindrical object. There appeared to be a band of white light above, yellow in the centre with red light below. As the cylinder moved north it did so with the cylinder at an angle. However, every time the object stopped, the cylinder took up a vertical position. The cylinder would move, and then stop before moving on again. It gradually gained elevation as it moved more to the northeast and was obscured by a cloud bank. The sighting had lasted over ten minutes leaving Mr L baffled for an explanation. A Very Close Encounter The major sighting of the flap occurred on 14 February soon after midnight. Jane, Terri, and Pam (1) were all travelling north to Devonport. They had made a late start but the weather was fine and they expected a trip not much over three hours would see them at their destination. They left the lights of Hobart behind and some 35 km north of the city they passed through Pontville. Terri in the front passenger seat noticed a set of three star-like lights low over the distant hills ahead, one light being much bigger than the others. At this point in the trip the car radio decided to fade out. She said nothing to Jane driving and Pam in the back seat about the light but kept it in view. However, after another 20 km she pointed the light out to the others. Jane thought it may have been a ball marker on low power lines but soon dismissed that idea as the light resolved into a football shape with a steady red light on the left and a blue light on the right. The light now became an object that was coming towards the car, at this point Jane brought the car to a stop. The object seemed to be on top of them, then over the roadside with a beam shining onto the ground. All three witnesses got out of the car to look at what they took to be some strange aircraft or helicopter. The beam was lighting up a square area in the paddock, and the fence was clearly visible as was the dry grass in the paddock. The beam seemed to come from front or beneath the object. All the witnesses heard a quiet humming sound as the object and beam moved in unison across the paddock at a height of some twenty metres and distance of fifteen metres. The object was estimated as being eight to ten metres wide and moving so slow that had it been a plane it would have fallen from the sky. Descriptions of the object varied at this stage. Jane and Terri described a dark shape above a bright light and beam, the red and blue lights being no longer visible. Pam felt they were looking at the bottom of the object with lights below. As it moved away, the beam went out. Jane saw a dark curved top with some lighter patches; Terri saw a triangle shape like a tail at the rear, and inside this triangle an orange light was revolving in a clockwise direction. Pam recalled a big bright light receding away towards the Kempton hills. The witnesses now continued on their journey north noting the time of the sighting at 12.12 am. They stopped briefly at Perth for a coffee and arrived at a relative=92s home in Devonport at 3.55 am. The trip from Melton Mowbray had taken another 3 =BE hours, the best part of an hour more than normal. Jane was also puzzled that they left home at exactly 11.38 pm but somehow reached Melton Mowbray about midnight, a test drive a few days after the sighting took 50 minutes for the same trip. Following contact with the Police, the witnesses were referred to TUFOIC. A full investigation proceeded with details of the event collected and contact made with a number of authorities and local contacts (2) in the sighting area. Air traffic, helicopters, and astronomical explanations were soon ruled. A Department of Defence contact said that to fly in the manner reported in the sighting would only be performed in a life or death situation, anyone attempting to joy ride in that manner would soon crash. Flying anything at night requires training and instrument skills, let alone crossing the country at low level. Military exercises are held in strictly defined locations and not over public areas. The sighting was reported in the The Mercury (Thursday 17 February 2005). The resultant publicity brought forth more sightings but nothing to help with an explanation for the encounter at Melton Mowbray (3). Tracking a UFO The night following the Melton Mowbray event, the Centre received five interesting sightings; four of the reports within about two hours of each other and separated by only about ten kilometres in distance. Initially a motorist travelling south near Epping Forest about 8.30 pm reported a bright round white light which appeared to the rear of his motor vehicle. He was able to look to the rear and observed a light that looked to be a couple of metres across. The light remained to the rear of his car for some five minutes before just disappearing. Near midnight the H (1) family was returning home from the fireworks at the Hobart Regatta, and were travelling north near Mangalore, about the same location as the start of the Melton Mowbray sighting. The father saw what he took to be an approaching aircraft to the west of the highway. The family home is beneath the flight path of commercial flights into Hobart Airport and they see overflights nearly every day. However, the lights ahead crossed to their east and seemed to stop before moving north at slow speed. The family was then rather surprised to find that their car was now overtaking the lights, leaving them behind to the rear on the driver=92s side. The father saw a red light and a strong white light with a light beaming down below with a flashing blue light. The driver (mother) saw white lights, three above, one in the centre, and three below in a capital I pattern. The son saw a similar pattern to his mother. However, his colours were three red above two strong yellow white, with two flashing blue lights below. The apparent size was hard to estimate and they commented it looked car-sized. The lights looked low just above the treetops to the east and maybe moving away towards the hills (Butlers Hill?). The father and son tried to look back at the lights, but they seemed to have disappeared. About the same time or maybe just after Mrs W (1) on a farm near Rekuna (ten kilometres east of Mangalore) was up late tending to the children. As she went to bed a bright glow outside caught her attention. Looking out she could see that there was something on or just beyond a hill some 400-500 m to the northwest. A brilliant white light was shining through the trees, the glow being as tall as the hilltop trees. Mrs W watched for a few minutes but could not make out a source for the light. She continued onto bed. About ten minutes later, she was still wondering about the light so she got up for another look. The light now seemed to have moved further back from the hill and was not as prominent. A few days later, she visited the light=92s location but there was nothing to indicate that anyone or anything had been on the hill. The area is rough and rocky with dry grass. The scene returns to Mangalore at about 1.45 am when a lone witness reported a brilliant white light and beam over Laskeys Hill just to the west of Mangalore. The witness who is in the habit of retiring late always inspects the night sky first. The bright ball was illuminating the trees and grass on the hillside. The light remained stationary for nearly fifteen minutes before it disappeared at great speed to the east. The fourth sighting was now made at Native Corners, again about ten kilometres east of Mangalore and just a few kilometres north of Rekuna. Mrs N (1) said she had to get up in the early hours, about 2 am. She found that the usual dark interior of the house was quite bright as if lit up from somewhere. Upon returning to bed she saw a large white ball low over the hillside northeast of the farm. The light was surrounded by a glow and had a tinge of red on the left hand side. The half-moon-sized light did not show any movement and after some ten minutes, she dozed off to sleep. The next morning, her sister also commented on how bright the area about the house was in the early hours of the morning. The moon had set that night about 10.45 pm. Final Reports Two more sightings brought the mini-flap to a close, one from Swansea on the state=92s East Coast, the second from Campania just a short distance from the events on 14 February. A Swansea witness awake in the early hours of 28 February (3.30 am) noticed a bright light or group of lights to the southwest. The light which was white seemed to also have flashing blue and red lights. At first it looked to move back and forth in a zigzag manner, then north across the western skyline. The witness alerted her partner to view the lights which after ten minutes were in the northwestern sky. The witness did not see what happened to the lights as she returned to bed. The final event occurred about 9.15 pm when Mrs R (1) of Campania witnessed a row of lights moving low over a hillside just west of the town. There appeared to be something dark with steady white lights on it plus some other coloured lights. The lights looked to be just above a gully before they disappeared behind a small hill. A couple of minutes later, the lights reappeared moving across in front of the hill. The silent object then departed over the gully where it had first been noticed. Conclusions The Centre has investigated the cases to the best of its ability, taking a common sense approach and not recording cases as unexplained when there has been a plausible explanation. The sightings themselves present some points of interest; to begin with, the obvious close geographical location of the events. Most cases involved a major bright white light, sometimes with a glow or beam of light capable of illuminating the ground below. The objects in all but one case were silent and in most reports made slow movements, quite often at low elevation. A row or group of lights was also reported. The bulk of the cases occurred late at night or in the early hours of the morning. The sightings on the night of 14 February almost allow one to plot the object=92s movements. One witness asked, "Who is driving?" and "Where does it go?" The ability to seemingly disappear in mid-air almost suggests it does not need to go anywhere locally, but somehow goes back to wherever it came from. The Centre (4) can with confidence, say that whilst Tasmanians slept soundly in their beds last summer, a UFO moved unimpeded across the night-time skies. Where it came from and where it went is the mystery and that is why the =91U=92 in UFO still stands for =91Unidentified=92. Notes: (1) Anonymous names used. All real names and addresses of witnesses on file with TUFOIC. (2) Investigation contacts =96 Air Traffic Control Hobart and Launceston Airports, Hobart Airport Security, Air Ambulance, Rotor Lift and Helicopter Resources. Tasmania Police, Tasmanian Search & Rescue, Department of Navy, Department of Defence, AAMI (balloon present on holiday weekend), Paul Jackson (Astronomical), Business and property owners in Melton Mowbray, Kempton and Bagdad districts. The Hobart Mercury and Launceston Examiner newspapers. (3) Articles appeared in the Hobart Mercury on 17, 19 and 24 February 2005. The Melton --- 1800 Hotline Sighting Reports: 1800-772288 National Free Call Hotline Number: At no cost to you, ring the National Hotline number to report a UFO sighting from anywhere in Australia, and leave your contact details. We=92ll get the closest AUFORN representative in your area to contact you ASAP. Mid-1970s Sydney (Lidcombe), NSW 1000hrs (Photo) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3786 23.12.04)= During the mid 1970s Mr Ryan worked at Lidcombe in Sydney, based in the grounds of the Lidcombe Hospital. About 10.00 am one morning during a break, Mr Ryan and a friend were having a cup of tea. They noticed a silver saucer-shaped craft hovering just above the tree tops. It looked just like a B-grade Hollywood movie flying saucer, dome and all. They called a friend of theirs and asked him to look and when he looked up he yelled out, "That=92s a flying saucer". The craft then tilted slightly and shot away in a zigzag movement and disappeared. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 23.10.04 Sydney (Freeman's Beach), NSW 2235hrs (Identified as Venus) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code ?) Sandra was at home in Freemen=92s Reach, New South Wales, with her husband one night, when she was looking at the sky and noticed a star-sized light that seemed to change colour from red, green, orange to white. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 26.10.04 Sydney (Glenfield), NSW 1145hrs (NL) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3667) After picking up her daughter from Holsworthy Army Base, Amanda was driving on Moorebank Avenue, Glenfield, New South Wales, about 200-300 metres before the Cambridge Road turn off. She noticed an object in the middle of her windscreen about 45- degrees from the horizon and pointed it out to her daughter. The object was yellowish orange in colour. It was stationary for a few seconds but then moved to the right in an arch and entered a cloud. It went quickly into the cloud and back out. It did this three times but they didn=92t see it come out again. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 26.10.04 Ballina, NSW 2345hrs (NL + TRACE) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3668) In Ballina, New South Wales, while sleeping on the lounge in the TV room, Sylvia S. was woken up by a bright light, emitting through the window from outside. "At the time I thought that I must be dreaming, so I went back to sleep. The next day I kept thinking about it. I decided to walk out to the garden, I stood at the spot where I thought the light was emitting from. I noticed a circle in the grass. As I looked around I noticed more circles in the area. We took some photos. I sent copies to a UFO group in Sydney, but have not heard from them yet. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 03.11.04 Sydney (Richmond), NSW 0300hrs (NL) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3679) On the morning of 3 November 2004, Peter, in Richmond, New South Wales, noticed four lights heading from south to north. There were three in a row, the fourth was abreast of the centre line. They were travelling 12,000 to 15,000 feet high and moving very fast with no sound at all. They were moving at twice the speed of a hornet plane. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 18.11.04 Dunnield Tri, Nsw 0300Hrs (NL) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3689) On the 18 November 2004, two witnesses in Dunnield Tri, new South Wales, saw an object, in the eastern sky about 45-degrees from the horizon. Mr Howe viewed the object with binoculars and noticed that it was moving upwards and changing colour. It was brighter than the stars and planets. He said that the object stopped, then moved again, then stopped, then it shot up at great speed and disappeared. Mr Howe=92s mother, Jenny, stated that she had seen the same object the night before. She was asleep when all of a sudden she was woken up by a very bright light, like a beam from a torch which seemed to be coming from outside. She chose to ignore it and went back to sleep. Mr Howe had had an earlier sighting about ten years ago, while driving home with his wife one night. They saw a hovering light which sat there for a few seconds, then shot off across the sky and stopped on the spot, about 30-degrees from the horizon. The object sat there for a few seconds then shot straight up and disappeared. It looked like a shooting star but in reverse. They thought it was weird, but left it at that. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA 02.01.05 Sydney (St Clair), Nsw 1000Hrs (Photo) Source: 1800 Freecall National Hotline Number - Callin Code 3807) On Sunday morning at 10.00 am, David, in St Clair, New South Wales, was taking photos of a dragonfly with his digital camera. He didn=92t notice anything unusual at the time, but as he was checking his photos he noticed an oval-shaped silver ball in the background. David has sent me a copy of the photo which I will pass on to AUFORN. Peter Khoury AUFORN/UFOESA AUFORN Home Page As from the 11th of July AUFORN has finally go it own home at: www.AUFORN.com Its been a long time coming but now its here, no more long addresses to say or post out AUFORN - UFOESA Lectures (International Guest Speakers) Gold Coast Lectures to be held at: Venue: Robina Community Center, Room C Location: Robina Town Center Drive Thursday 29th September 2005 Start time 6.30 p.m - Finish 10.30 p.m 5 minute walk from the Robina Railway station. Link: http://www.robina.com.au/subpages/business/dynPanorama.asp Sydney Lectures to be held at: Venue: Dooleys Libcombe Cathlic Club Location: 24 John Street 1st Saturday November 2005 Start time 5.30 p.m - Finish 9.30 p.m 5 minute walk from the Libcombe Railway station. Link: http://www.lidcombecatholic.com.au/home_index.html For members & guests Speakers: Freddy Silva - Author Topic - Crop Circles and Sound. http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-1.html Alfred Lambremont Webre - Author Topic - Exopolitics - Preparing for contact. Link: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-2.html Michael Horn - Musician Topic - Billy Meier case, Light ships Alien Contact. Link: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Guest-3.html Gold Coast & Sydney Entrance Fee: Cost: $20.00 for the evening or $10.00 per individual speaker Pensioner discount $15.00 Contacts: Gold Coast: Contact 07-5530-3221 or 0427-164677 Email: auforn.nul or ufologist.nul Sydney: Contact: 0412-649428 Email: ufoesa.nul I would like to thank Duncan Roads for allowing us to host these speakers. AUFORN 5th August 2005 Public Meeting Guest Speaker: Paul Clacher Bio Former Telstra Technician to Marketing Manager. Griffith University Director of Microelectronic Engineering, Australian Federal Policeman as a Federal Financial Intelligence Agent. In 2001 Paul joined WorkCover as an Investigator, was UFORQ Investigations Officer for a short time. Amongst many of Paul's qualifications he holds a level 3 from the Colorado Centre for Healing Touch. Paul feels his work with ethereal energy has allowed him to be in touch with other energy sources and this is why he is so able to freely take photographs of Orbs, and on odd occasions has capture photographs of apparitions. How did Paul start: How did it all start? Well, in 2004 my family and I decided to head off on a trip around Queensland and fossick on the way and also do a bit of site seeing as we went. The route took us to many fossicking sites and areas of extreme and historical significance. While on holidays my daughter wanted more than anything, to go to Boulia and try to see some "Min Min" lights. My wife wanted to see Western Queensland and I wanted to do all of that, but I also wanted to look and fossick for stones. While away I took a considerable number of photographs with my newly purchased digital camera. My daughter, who is a bit of a brave individual, suggested to me that we pay a visit to a local Pioneer Cemetery in one of the country towns that we were staying at and take some night photographs. Now, I don't know if she was getting bored or not, but anyway, she managed to talk me into it. What happened next, would be enough to convert the staunchest skeptic. After a counter meal dinner at the local pub, we made our way to the pioneer cemetery and just to add a bit of fun for my daughter, I told her I would call in the ghosts, so I did. With a bit of fun in mind and trying to add a little bit of tension to the event my daughter then took some photographs with the digital camera and I said "can I have a look". My daughter was sort of shocked. I asked "what's up", and she showed me the photo that she had just taken. The shot was filled with what looked like "Orbs" 72 in all, or could they be "Min Min" lights. I must admit I was a little shocked myself. I then took some shots myself, you could say this event stirred my interest in digital photos. During the rest of that holiday and up until the current this date I have taken many photographs with my digital camera and it appears I can hardly take a photograph without photographing Orbs/ Min Min lights. Presentation: Paul will give a Power Point presentation of photos he has taken of Orbs and apparitions and will show us who easy it is to photograph them. Paul will organize a field trip following the lecture to a location of the groups choice, so you to can capture Orbs and maybe some apparitions on your digital camera. If you want to know more about these balls of transparent light, come along to our meeting August 5th and Paul will demonstrate even with the cleanest of camera lens you too can capture these images. For more information about Paul call by his web page @ http://uqconnect.net/~zzpclach/index.htm Article: Big Cats, by Paul Clacher http://www.uq.net.au/~zzpclach/bigcatwitnesses.htm Strange-Nation.com On the Trail of the Big Cat, by Paul Clacher http://www.strangenation.com.au/Articles/paulclacher.htm AUFORN MEETINGS ARE HELD AT: BRISBANE, QLD - Springwood Community Centre at corner of Cinderella Drive and Vanessa Blvd, Springwood. First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 5 August, 7 October and 2 December GOLD COAST, QLD - Community Centre, Lawson Street, Southport (next to RSL). First Friday of the month, 7.30 pm Next Meeting: 2 September and 4 November Melbourne, Vic - Clayton RSL, 193 Carinish Road, Clayton. Second Sunday of the month, 7.00 pm Next Meeting: 11 September, and 11 December Contact Details: www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn ufologist.nul auforn.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Another Unit 731 Secret From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:18:08 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:26:40 -0400 Subject: Another Unit 731 Secret Okay, an engineer friend of mine, a very top knotch engineer who had first hipped me to Unit 731 gave me some data on that ghoulish group that shook me up. I hope others can confirm it so I'm posting here. The data has nothing to do with UFOs but it does show what to me is a far more disturbing secret. Apparently the Japanese had been producing massive amounts of amphetamines and other dope. After the war the dope was illegally procured and distributed throughout the U.S. by the U.S. Military via the early Hell's Angels gang? The late 40's and early 50's ushered in the big dope wave including heroine. I've read reports pointing to the, then, newly formed CIA as being the vanguard to send these narcotics into the African American communities along the Jazz movement lines. Any other data is highly welcome.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: Star Trek's 'Scotty' James Doohan Dies - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:21:22 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:28:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Star Trek's 'Scotty' James Doohan Dies - Boone >Source: CNN.Com >http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/07/20/obit.doohan.ap/index.html >Wednesday, July 20, 2005 >James Doohan, 'Star Trek's' Scotty, Dead >LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- James Doohan, the burly >chief >engineer of the Starship Enterprise in the original "Star Trek" >TV series and motion pictures who responded to the >apocryphal >command "Beam me up, Scotty," died early Wednesday. He >was 85. Gosh I'm going to miss Mr. Doohan. He was such a grand man. He never wavered, at a Trek convention, to tell us wide-eyed fans a story of his adventures.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 UFO Instrumented Field Research [was Re: Toronto From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:35:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:31:44 -0400 Subject: UFO Instrumented Field Research [was Re: Toronto >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:30:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Toronto Hosts UFO Conference Sept. 25 2005 >If you want a new construct to replace "ufology," you might >visit Kyle King's blog - http://uforeflections.blogspot.com - >for his take on this and his "neology" movement. Yes, this is a very exciting approach to instrumented field research of all sorts of phenomena near the Earth. Boiled down, it outlines a concept of gathering data (a citizen's early warning system) to protect the Earth from phenomena (asteroids, ball lightning, bolides,sprites,etc). Rather than focus on UFOs, which would cause a giggle factor for _any_ such project, the emphasis is on planetary protection data collection, with an ancillary benefit that data on uncorrelated targets may be used by researchers as they wish. There are alot of data gathering sources out "there" (airport radar, telescopic surveys, EMF surveys) which gather lots of data, but they have tons of filters to eliminate things they are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:01 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:35:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Friedman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:46:27 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>Nick there is some very good info here. >>However, I would strenuously object to the notion that the >>people at Roswell found "a huge field of balloon debris". >>Nothing described by Jesse Marcel, or Mac Brazel to his >>neighbors and son, gives an indication of balloon debris. >>What struck Jesse Marcel is that there was nothing conventional >>to be found. Balloons were not then made of very strong very >>thin foil like material. >>Nothing in the Plains matches balloons either. >>The I-Beams that couldn't be broken, bent, or burned, don't match >>balloons. >>Jesse had taken a course that included work with weather >>balloons. >>Brazel had found balloons. >>Twining's September 1947 SECRET Letter certainly would seem to >>have ruled out balloons. >I will be the first to admit that we need to answer the question >of the unusual debris at Roswell. There are, however, several >points I would make: >1. Brazel - who made the original discovery - had _already_ >found two weather balloons flown by the military. Is it totally >unfeasible that he might have found a third balloon-based >military device, even if not for weather-gathering purposes? Obviously I can't say it is totally unfeasible, but I can't find any basis for it. Remember Jesse's comment about nothing conventional.. no wire, no vacuum tubes, no labels "made in Oshkosh",I doubt if the Japanese were using alien technology and materials.. and neither was the USAAF or Northrop. >2. If you look at Body Snatchers, page 114, the Colonel states >that what Brazel found was not just a field of balloon debris >and a body but also - and this may be critical - a nine-foot- >long piece of "lightweight covering material" from the aircraft >that had got "ripped away" from the aircraft when it and the >balloon array became catastrophically detached from each other. >Therefore, that may explain the difference between balloon >debris and other materials both intermingled at one site. But what is the basis of the colonel's claim about what Brazel found? It certainly doesn't match anything said by neighbor Loretta Proctor, or Bill Brazel or Jesse Marcel. From whence cometh the 9 foot piece of wreckage? Sounds like the Colonel was aware of the false claims made by Frank Kaufmann, for a different location at that, and just glommed on.This one of the reasons I am skeptical of his testimony. >3. Take a look at those 4 links (pictures and data) I posted a >few days ago re the experiment to fly a huge blimp/balloon with >helicopters fixed to it. Then imagine if this failed in mid-air >and the blimp came down with a section of one of the helicopters >still attached. If someone found the blimp and then found the >helicopter materials too, people would say "Well, that is >obviously not balloon materials." And they would be correct >because it would be a part of the other device that remained >affixed to the blimp. The same scenario could work here. For >those that missed this, here are the links again: The Links: >http://www.piasecki.com/_borders/pa-97.1.jpg >http://www.piasecki.com/images/helstt.gif >http://www.piasecki.com/pa-97.htm >http://www.time.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,961709,00.html Nick, I don't understand the connection. The Piaseki stuff wasn't built until 1986 when helicopter engines were much more powerful.. Again there would have been conventional materials in the wreckage.. none at the Brazel ranch >3. And while I understand that Bessie Brazel Schreiber's >testimony has been discussed by Roswell researchers, it is a >fact that she stated: "The debris looked like pieces of a large >balloon which had burst...Most of it was a kind of double-sided >material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other." Bessie's testimony had changed greatly from the first time she was interviewed .. as had Irving Newton's. Bill Brazel's never
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:56:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:37:22 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - McGonagle >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:24:51 +1000 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:19:42 +0100 >>Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' <snip> >>I find it incredible that you are so naive, Sheryl! This is >>_exactly_ the attitude that keeps many people away from ufology. >>(Including the Australian witness that was under discussion on >>the ufologyinuk list recently). >Joe, sorry, you'll have to explain yourself more clearly here. >This dweller from down under has had a bit too much Australian >sun I think. What exactly is the attitude that keeps people away >from the UFO subject??? And how is it naive? I gave up doing other people's homework years ago too.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:01 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:31:21 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:09:33 -0500 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>Who is saying anything about Martians??? You continually make >>the mistake of interpreting "Flying Disc" as alien spaceship. >>Gildas, You have _got_ to try and get into the minds of the >>people back then and understand what "Flying Disc" meant to them >>in the summer of 1947. Not what it means or implies to us today. >>An examination of a wealth of FOIA documents shows that the >>military's first thought was that these were a secret weapon >>(either of the US or a foreign power - FBI documents of the time >>discuss this a lot, see page 154 of Body Snatchers). >>So, there was no mindset at the time of the crash that Flying >>Discs _were_ alien. But it _does_ create that exact mindset with >>you, because 60 years on we equate Flying Discs with UFOs and >>aliens. Back then they thought it was secret weapons. >Listfolk: >Nick's point is a good one and ought not to be glossed over. A >few years ago, as I was trying to reconstruct the early history >of the UFO controversy, I researched the question of just when >popular opinion started to equate UFOs with ET visitors. The >results surprised me. (For a detailed account see my paper "The >Extraterrestrial Hypothesis in the Early UFO Age," in David M. >Jacobs, ed. UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of >Knowledge. Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 2000, pp. 122- >40.) Jerry and List, After perusing my documentation, certainly very modest compared to yours, I must admit that few newspapers, around June-July 1947, mentioned the "spaceship" hypothesis. For instance, the opinion of Kenneth Arnold that they "could possibly be from some other planet" is mentioned in the Chigaco Times of July 7, but I did not find it in any other article (seen in "Cases at the Beginning of the Modern UFO Era", compiled by Michael Swords, Cufos 1992). On the other hand, one find in them a rich panoply of prosaic explanations. >Basically, despite the presence of jokes about Martians in the >press from 1947 into the early 1950s, even witnesses >overwhelmingly discounted ET interpretations. The fact that there were jokes about Martians suggests, however, that the idea was present. The contrary would be extremely surprising, compared to the panic of 1938 caused by the Orson Welles radio program. In effect, he was interviewed, according to Loren Gross (in "UFOs: A History. A History. Vol. 1: 1947, page 9). Around July 2nd, "The United Press rushed to get a comment from Orson Welles...", who said "he did not have a thing to do with the flying saucers". So the idea of "space ships" was, indeed, present at that time. Another interesting exemple is that the "space ship" hypothesis was duly mentioned, and rejected, in an official statement of the Army Air Forces of July 8th (L. Gross, p. 24): "Preliminary study has revealed that the flying saucers are _not_: 1. Secret bacteriological wapons designed by some foreign powers. 2. new type Army rockets. 3. Space ships. That was a fast reaction, at the crest of the UFO wave, and the very day of the Roswell press release. It suggests to me that there was a need to defuse the idea urgently. There was a need to reassure people. General LeMay, assistant chief of staff for research, told theb Associated Press that the phenomena "were nothing to worry about". >The first Gallup Poll on the subject, released on August 14, 1947 ("now that the uproar over the 'flying saucers' has subsided"), uncovered so few respondents mentioning ET explanations that they went unlisted in the results. Let me refer here to a previous exchange, on this List, between Jan Aldrich and David Rudiak. In a message of 28 Feb. 1999 ("August 1947 Gallup Poll"), Jan Aldrich gave a summary of the poll: No answer, don't know: 33% Imagination, optical illusions, mirages, etc.: 29% Hoax: 10% US secret weapon, part of atomic bomb, etc.: 15% Weather forecasting devices: 3% Russian secret weapon: 1% Searchlights on airplanes: 2% Other explanations: 9% The question of space ships was not asked! I agree with David Rudiak's comment: "The above poll has been cited by some Net debunkers that people weren't thinking 'alien spacecraft' as an explanation for the saucers during the June/July 1947 wave. However, since that isn't one of the categories separately listed in the poll, it is invalid to draw such a conclusion". And David notes also that this poll "followed a month after the rather severe military/media debunking of the saucers immediately- following the Roswell incident". Yes, one of the most evident facts of the 1947 wave is the brutal change of tone
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:31:43 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:33:50 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >But if you ask me why I hold my beliefs and I take the time to >patiently answer your questions and respond to your >observations, I feel that I am entitled to ask you why you think >that the theory I present is invalid. Nick, I can only repeat, patiently, what I have said several times: - there were no Japanese prisoners, either normal or deformed; - there were no Horten-like planes at that time, putting aside a few Northrop (not Northrup) flying wings, tested at Muroc Dry Lake (not White Sands); - there were no "lifting bodies", which would be tested at Edwards some thirty years later; - there were no atomic or isotopic generators to be embarked on a plane at that time; - the idea of installing radioactive materials on a plane for horrible irradiation experiments seems completely inconceivable to me. In short, in my opinion, these are big holes in your story, and all your arguments cannot fill them. I also suppose that, if the Roswell officers had found such an extravagant craft and crew, they would not have made any press release at all. That being said, the discussion about the testimonies on alien bodies is another, difficult matter, and I don't feel like engaging in such a debate with you. I simply don't have any obligation to. Allow me one more note of the press release, though. On the early morning of July 8, when Marcel and Cavitt reported to Colonel Blanchard their finding of the debris field at the Foster ranch, if that was all they had found yet, it seems reasonable to suppose that it would not have sufficed to produce that strange press release, announcing the discovery of a "flying disk". Marcel never, never said that he had found a "flying disk" ! So, there was something else. My idea is that they had already found at that moment, not a plane with Japanese pilots, but a weird craft with weird alien bodies in it, or scattered around it. Probably at a location closer to Roswell, at about 45 minutes drive (counting some cross-country ride: to the "boondocks", said Cavitt to Rickett when he took him there). That's what they wanted to hide at all costs. So, why a press release, then ? Maybe because they feared for a while not to be able to control the debris field. So they decided to concede it, at the worst, with a vague story of a disk being already retrieved. But as soon as they took control of it, they switched to the balloon story. I am not sure that it is right, but it makes sense to me. Such a discovery was a tremendous shock and it had to be kept under wraps. I still hope we will be informed,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 21 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:50:55 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Allan >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>I am primarily thinking of the debris witnesses, you must be >>aware of that, but now you want me to talk about the more >>fragile area of witnesses for the alien bodies. >Gildas >Interesting that after criticizing me for believing testimony >about Japanese bodies found in New Mexico, you yourself admit >that the evidence for alien bodies is "fragile". <snip> I remind you both, that _no_ bodies were reported at any of the Roswell crash sites in 1947. Had any actually been discovered I find it inconceivable that such would not have been mentioned at the time. There were a number of people whose comments appear in the Roswell Daily Record for July 9, but none from anyone who saw, or knew about, any bodies. Nor at any time in the ensuing days, months or years. And I do not believe for one moment that people who did witness the bodies, especially the civilians, were all sworn to secrecy. A 35-year hush-up? A likely scenario! So, if there were indeed bodies (American, Japanese, ET, etc) why not one word about them in July 47? The bodies in fact did not enter the Roswell tale until 1980, and even then it was only on the plains of San Agustin, not Roswell. Roswell 'bodies' only began to appear in the mid-80s.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Aliens & 'Anxiety' Fuel New Sci-Fi Show From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:22:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:22:22 -0400 Subject: Aliens & 'Anxiety' Fuel New Sci-Fi Show Source: The New York Daily News http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/329938p-281977c.html July 21, 2005 Aliens & 'Anxiety' Fuel New Sci-Fi Show David Bianculli Daily News' TV critic BEVERLY HILLS - The new CBS series "Threshold," about government response to newly substantiated evidence of extraterrestrial contact, is one of several shows this season featuring fantasy and supernatural themes and complex mythologies. David Heyman, one of the show's executive producers (along with Brannon Braga), yesterday said he suspected there was a reason for the sudden increase in such series - and that the success of ABC's "Lost" was only part of it. "It's a reaction to a lot of anxiety in the world right now; there's a lot of global anxiety," said Heyman, who's also a producer of the "Harry Potter" films. He cited recent events in London, Iraq and the West Bank. "People are scared. And historically, when people are scared, there has been an uptick in science-fiction fantasy and horror," he explained. "It happened in the '50s with the Red Scare.... It's a way for science fiction to tell allegorical tales...and talk about what's going on, but from a sideways angle." "Our show," he added, "is meant to be disturbing - and genuinely scary." The "Threshold" cast includes Carla Gugino from "Karen Sisco," Charles S. Dutton from "Roc," Brent Spiner from "Star Trek: The Next Generation," and Peter Dinklage of the well-received independent film "The Station Agent," which the actor credits as helping him to get roles unrelated to his size as a dwarf.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Samples Scrutinized In Yukon Sasquatch Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:27:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:27:55 -0400 Subject: Samples Scrutinized In Yukon Sasquatch Sighting Source: CBC North - Canada http://north.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=sasquatch-hair20072005&ref=rs s July 20 2005 [Pictures] Hair Samples Scrutinized In Yukon Sasquatch Sighting CBC News The question of whether or not there is a bigfoot roaming around the Yukon hangs by a hair, as a biologist analyzes samples taken from the community of Teslin where nine people reported sasquatch sightings 10 days ago. Phillip Merchant, a territorial biologist, says so far tests show the hair was likely not from a bear. He made the assessment after comparing hair samples found at the scene, with samples of known local mammals. Merchant says he can't make an exact match, but says the hair most resembles that of a Yukon bison. He says more precise tests could be fairly expensive. "There are new electron microscopes that could be applied and it's all a question of getting someone who is interested in doing it and what the bill is and who will pay," says Merchant. "If it comes from the government of the Yukon does it give it an aura of authenticity? We have to be careful we don't send people on a wild goose chase." Merchant says he's skeptical about the sasquatch claims. But he says he will do what he can to determine the origin of the hair sample. * FROM JULY 13, 2005: Sasquatch sighting reported in Yukon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:31:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:31:43 -0400 Subject: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects UK Bicyclist Reports Mysterious, Low Hovering Objects Bending Wheat "...I am certain that there is some other form of intelligence, either on this planet or visiting the crops from somewhere else. I have no doubt about that after seeing what I saw." - Mike Booth, Marlborough, U. K. Resident More at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Peter Khoury DNA Case From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:35:43 -0400 Subject: Peter Khoury DNA Case >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 >Subject: Peter Koury DNA case I just finished reading Bill Chalker's article on this intriguing case from Australia, regarding DNA tests done on a strand of hair recovered by "abductee" Peter Koury following an unusual enounter with two females. (Found here at Las Vegas library in current issue of MUFON Journal.) Followup mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA testing revealed further interesting features! Is this article going to be posted somewhere on the net soon? (It would be great to share a link to this report.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:19:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:38:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >But what is the basis of the colonel's claim about what Brazel >found? It certainly doesn't match anything said by neighbor >Loretta Proctor, or Bill Brazel or Jesse Marcel. From whence >cometh the 9 foot piece of wreckage? Sounds like the Colonel was >aware of the false claims made by Frank Kaufmann, for a >different location at that, and just glommed on.This one of the >reasons I am skeptical of his testimony. No, he was talking about the same location for the debris and the nine-foot piece of material. I'm not sure why you think that his comment implies he was aware of the Kaufmann tales, or why it suggests a connection with Kaufmann in some way. >Nick, I don't understand the connection. The Piaseki stuff >wasn't built until 1986 when helicopter engines were much more >powerful.. Again there would have been conventional materials in >the wreckage.. none at the Brazel ranch Yes, but the point I was trying to make by using the Link as an example (and as nothing else) is that when you have a "hybrid" style device that combines two vehicles (whether blimp and helicopter as per the Link, or balloon array and Horten-like device as per the book) and it crashes, then there is a potential for materials from both vehicles to be intermingled at the same crash site. It would resonate with witnesses that while some of the material looked balloon-like, some of it didn't, and that would puzzle them and stay with them. That could also lead to the idea/thought that this wasn't a balloon. And technically, they would be partly correct because the part that wasn't balloon debris was from the other device. >Bessie's testimony had changed greatly from the first time she >was interviewed .. as had Irving Newton's. Bill Brazel's never >did change nor did Jesse Marcel's. I agree that Marcel's and Bill Brazel's testimony did not change. But for me the most important thing is that the reason why it was accepted as evidence of something strange is because they were describing finding materials (lightweight materials, etc.) that wouldn't be found in a balloon scenario. In other words, it may have been the finding of the other material that specifically laid the foundation that this wasn't a balloon. But the sources I have interviewed openly state that it was not just a balloon that came down on the Ranch. In my mind, they provide a plausible explanation as to why there was more than one type of wreckage at that site and why that might have led to confusion by the people that found/saw it. There is something else that I have thought about from time to time and it's this: if the aliens don't want to openly meet us, speak with us, have direct contact with us, and are operating in a stealth-like way on our world, why didn't they recover the material from the crash site(s) before the military got there? They could cross the galaxy but they couldn't scoop up a field of debris? Now, I realize that there could be any number of scenarios (it was a "planted" crash to make them seem vulnerable in our minds; they only had a very small presence here at the time that prevented them undertaking a recovery; they wanted to introduce themselves to the Government in a non-threatening, non- confrontational way, etc., etc.). But to me it seems odd (and granted, I admit that I don't know what goes through the mind of an alien!) that no attempt at salvage would have been made to hide their presence. And even if they couldn't have salvaged it, what about good old- fashioned combat with the military people that were sent out to secure the site, in an attempt to prevent the US recovering it? I just find it very odd that if this was alien, the aliens seemed not to care that advanced technology was falling into our hands, they seemed not to care that we would have access to the biology of the crew, and they seemed not to care that they had just blown their cover and we now had ultimate proof that someone was flying around, snooping and spying on New Mexico - arguably one of the most important places for military/defense activity at the time. As I said, I'm sure the List can come up with all sorts of theories as to why aliens would leave the debris where it was and not pick it up. For me, the easiest explanation is probably the correct one: the aliens didn't pick the debris up because it didn't come from them.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Illegal Aliens? - Harney From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:45:11 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:40:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Illegal Aliens? - Harney >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:11:05 EDT >Subject: Illegal Aliens? >Here's one story I've been reluctant to relay but a pal who is >an old time Ufologist bade me do so. >He had asked me about what was going on in Mexico as he had read >the reports of the never-ending sightings down there. >Then I had to 'fess up to something several Mexican neighbors of >mine told me. >Since I can walk out my front door, take a few steps and ask any >number of folks from Mexico, that I know, about anything >Mexican. I of course asked about the UFO flaps. >As the conversations segued back and forth about the controversy >about the mass border-crossings, one chap looked at me sternly >and said, >"Jobs ain't the only reason we come here. It's to get away from >all those UFOs!" >He had a word they use for UFOs and ETs, but I forgot it. The >others acknowledged him and at first I thought he was joking, but Of course he was joking. >I asked another group of the guys who hang out in the parking >lot of one of the hardware stores nearby. >Yep, same thing. They said UFO stories, news reports and close >encounters of all kinds have folks in Mexico quite stirred up. >Again they reiterated that that was another main reason they >make it to the U.S. No, no, they are only joking. _J_O_K_I_N_G_. To suggest that fear of UFOs is almost as strong a reason for leaving Mexico as the need for jobs providing a living wage is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:35:34 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Kimball >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:13:21 -0600 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >UFO, UFOB, UAP, etc. are the semantic elements of Ufology. Ms. Connors: It's not a question of semantics, particularly between UFO and UAP. UFO refers specifically to an object - something physical (as you state below). UAP uses the word "Phenomena" which is far more broad. While it allows for the possibility that the UF's are O's, it also allows for a number of other possibilities. That is not a matter of semantics, but a significant distinction. >Therefore, no matter what acronym a person uses the bottom line >fact remains as true today as it did in the beginning: >An apparent manufactured object that does not equate to our own >technological abilities, which are observed in the atmosphere or >near/deep space, and always appears to be just beyond our own >technologies and abilities to understand. Thus, such objects are >no longer "magical" because we comprehend the basics of science >and technology, but remain an elusive, reality based, phenomenon >worthy of study. >Worthy of study and research because it is obvious that >technology more advanced than our own is in play. Obvious to you - there are many others to whom it is not obvious. What you have presented is a hypothesis (one with which I tend to agree), but it is not a fact. But, then again, as we can see from this entire post, "facts" for you are flexible things. <snip> >Again, anyone who claims they know the origin of UFOs, is >deceiving you. Now, this I find interesting, as it states that anyone who presents the ETH as a fact, such as Stan Friedman, for example, is "deceiving you". I don't agree with Stan that the ETH is a "fact" (hence the use of the term "hypothesis"), but I wouldn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Looking Through Eyes Of Love From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:35:58 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:51:13 -0400 Subject: Looking Through Eyes Of Love New book availibale through The Australasian Ufologist Magazine Looking Through Eyes Of Love Australian author Judy Carroll Looking Through Eyes of Love is the story of Alarca, an extraterrestrial who meets an untimely end in a crashed Disk on the North American continent. Persuaded by the Elders of her race to reincarnate on Earth in human form, she is to complete her failed mission. Reborn into a Gypsy family in Australia, she becomes Ali. But her life doesn't go to plan. The trauma of birth causes Ali to forget her extraterrestrial roots, and so her childhood is spent trying to come to terms with strange memories and telepathic abilities. Everything changes however on the night of her 13th birthday, when one of the Elders appears in her bedroom. It is time for the truth, and nothing is ever the same. The teachings Ali receives include information on Crop Circles, ET Implants, reasons behind so-called Abduction Experiences, history of Human/ET/Universal Evolution and expansion of the human mind through the Contact Experience. In Store Price: $AU27.95 INTRODUCTION Fact: tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of perfectly sane, normal human beings are being regularly taken on board extraterrestrial spacecraft for the purpose of medical-type examinations, probes and genetic procedures. These people, popularly referred to as 'abductees', 'contactees', or 'experiencers', cover a broad cross-section of the world community, and include doctors, lawyers, scientists, politicians, teachers and farmers, as well as butchers, bakers, clergymen and housewives. The extraterrestrials (ETs) involved are usually the small, thin-bodied, large-headed ones, with black almond-shaped eyes, known as the Greys, although other types, some very human in appearance, have also been reported. The encounter experience often begins with the person waking in the night to find a number of entities (usually three) in their bedroom. They are then whisked mysteriously out of the house through locked doors and closed windows, and the next moment find themselves on board an ET Disc, lying on an examination table in a clinic-like room. A medical examination is then carried out on them, which often involves the removal of tissue samples, the placing of an implant into some part of their body, and sometimes a gynaecological procedure of some sort. If the situation becomes too painful or frightening, an anaesthetic is administered, by one of the ETs simply placing their hands on the head of the human 'guest'. When it is over, the person is returned safely to their bed, occasionally waking the next morning to such anomalies as pyjamas on back to front, inside out or folded neatly beside them; unexplainable bleeding or marks on their body, often in the shape of a triangle; and more rarely, finding themselves in the wrong bed, or even the wrong house. Some have conscious or semi-conscious recollection of their encounter experiences, some do not, but this phenomenon, along with the UFOs (Unidentified Flying Objects), which have been seen, reported and investigated over a period of many years, is gaining more and more credence and acknowledgement as we progress through the first decade of the 21st century. In fact, hardly a day goes by without at least one sighting of a UFO or an 'alien abduction' report somewhere on the planet, and many popular books have been written on the subject by authors such as Whitley Strieber, Budd Hopkins, Raymond Fowler, Richard Boylan and John Mack, to name but a few. Up until the present time, most literature on the subject has naturally been written from the human viewpoint, but now it is time for the ETs themselves to have a say on the subject. AUTHOR'S NOTE For the present time this book is a work of fiction and therefore any resemblance to actual persons is purely coincidental. Whether or not it will be a work of fiction in another ten years is a different matter, for, as has been proven many times over, today's fiction is tomorrow's fact. If you do not agree with such a statement then consider this. To a well-educated person living in the 18th century, simply pressing a switch on the wall to illuminate a room would have been pure fiction. Everybody knew back then that to light a room one needed a lamp with oil in it, or at least a candle. And a magical box on which one could view a moving picture and hear the appropriate sounds as well? Definitely a work of the Devil! Which just goes to show -- the line that divides fact from fiction is extremely tenuous, and changes continuously with the passing of Time, so an open- minded approach to life is the way to go. The reason for presenting this book as fiction is that the Human Race of Planet Earth is not quite ready, at this point in time, to know all there is to know about the so-called Greys. For example, one small detail of their Culture that humans may find strange and unsettling is the fact that, until they reach the fifth level of their Soul Consciousness, that is, the Elder/Teacher level, they are not known by name but rather by number. As probably many of you know already, the sound of a person's name vibrates at a particular and individual frequency, setting you apart and differentiating you from those around you. For a human, their name is a very personal possession. The Grey Culture however does not work quite like this. They express Oneness in every aspect of their being, and operate more closely as a Group Soul, with each perfectly happy and content to be just a small part of the Whole. 'Number' is the closest way I can describe in human terms the personal frequency band that each operates on. It is something like the call signs used by radio and television stations, and each individual's number resonates in harmony with everyone else's number, and so they resonate together like the notes that form a musical chord. Now, as a Level Four Worker who is at present in training to become a Teacher, being known by number does not worry our heroine Alarca in the least; in fact she likes her number. It gives her a warm, fuzzy feeling of belonging, and expresses very clearly who she is within the scheme of things. When she does eventually graduate to the fifth level and takes a name ending in 'IS' as all Teachers' names do, she will quite miss her number at first, until she becomes accustomed to the change. For the purpose of writing this book, special dispensation has been granted by the Elders to me to use names for some of the Workers rather than numbers, which they prefer to keep private anyway. This, hopefully, will help readers to feel comfortable and to be able to relate more easily with the various characters. The Elders have actually allowed quite a bit of leeway in several areas, so hopefully not too many toes have been stepped on in the process, (which is not easy, because being so tall, the Grey Elders have very large feet!). These Elders' names have not been changed to ensure privacy, because they don't mind in the least having their real names out here in print. The Greys are officially classified as Zeta Reticulans by researchers on Planet Earth, because it is this Star System that they call Home, however, the term 'Grey' is probably more appropriate, being a more general term. The problem is, this in itself can be a little confusing because, like humans of Earth, the Greys have several different racial types and therefore, like humans, their skin colour varies. Some for example are really more blue than grey. Greys are interdimensional as well as extraterrestrial. They inhabit a number of different Planes throughout the Universe, and some of them live permanently on board the huge Motherships, which are really more like travelling cities. These Motherships, believe it or not, are living, sentient organisms themselves with whom the Greys interface. The ones that humans refer to as 'Angels' are also highly evolved interdimensional as well as extraterrestrial beings from a number of different Planes and Star Systems. The term 'Angel' or 'Grey' more accurately denotes their evolutionary level in the Universe rather than their specific race, and therefore is more appropriate to use. The Angels are known as Workers of Oneness (God), and Greys are the Workers of the Angels. As such, their role is that of Caretakers of Energy within the lower levels of the Universe. However, they really don't mind what we all them -- Zetas, Greys, Visitors, Guardians, Watchers or whatever, but please don't refer to them as Aliens. In fact, what they would like best to be known as is Family. A Preview CHAPTER 1 Our Disc skimmed the sandy surface of the planet, travelling at a steady and moderate speed of only a few hundred kilometres per hour. This was a reconnaissance flight, so my fellow crew members and I had left the safety of the giant Mothership in the higher levels of the stratosphere, to venture forth in one of the smaller, more compact Discs which are designed to carry ten of us at the most. We were operating on a lower frequency band of the electro- magnetic scale, which meant we would be visible to any Earthling eyes that happened to be scanning the night sky, but with the storm that had been raging for the last half hour or so that was not very likely. This was not a thickly populated area of the planet, and most of the inhabitants would be tucked up safe and sound in their beds anyway, so we felt fairly secure that our presence would not be noticed. We were probably appearing as a blip on the radar screens at the local Air Force Base, which was a bit of a worry, but even if they sent one of their planes up to investigate and intercept us, we would soon make our escape. Compared to our Discs, even the very latest fighter planes of Planet Earth were slow and cumbersome, and we could easily out-manoeuvre them. We knew exactly what their capabilities were because we'd been monitoring them for years, positioning our data-gathering plasma balls close to the wingtips of their planes during their last major war to ensure a regular supply of information on the technological progress of the military forces of Planet Earth. These plasma balls are actually living, sentient Thought Forms created as extensions of our own minds. They appear to Earthling eyes as balls of light, and have come to be known by human pilots as 'Foo Fighters'. On tonight's mission it was my turn to be at the controls. Fuel- driven rockets, or engines of any sort for that matter, do not power our Discs, but rather the pure, naturally occurring energy that is the driving force behind the Universe. They are designed to access this cosmic energy directly through the hands and mind focus of the crew. To put it simply, we ourselves are the conduit for the power, and the Disc is an extension of us in that we are linked to it and to each other by thought processes alone. This energy flows into and through our bodies, which act as conductors, and is directed into the Disc, which is intimately linked into our energy and nervous systems through our hands when they are placed on a control panel. Direction and speed are governed solely by our minds, and so the Disc can potentially travel at the speed of our thoughts, thus transcending Time and Space. The Disc is a living entity of which we are the brain and nervous system. As I mentioned, this was a routine reconnaissance sweep, which we'd performed many times before; however, keeping the Disc steady took a little more concentration that night as we steered our way through the raging storm. A small corner of my mind became aware of an amused train of thought rippling through the mind of my good friend and fellow crew member, Ashka, who was attempting to relieve the strain by thinking of jokes and relaying them telepathically to the rest of the crew. Ashka's sense of humour could always be counted upon, however tense the situation, but I determinedly ignored her, totally focusing my thought patterns into the receptive Disc, which was relying on me for guidance and control. Warm, undulating waves of profound amusement emanating from the others washed over me, causing my mind to relax and waver for just a second or two. Problem was, at that very moment we were not the only ones to be operating in that particular little piece of sky. A frantic warning from the Disc flashed into my mind, jolting my consciousness back into full alert as a second craft suddenly materialised through the space/time continuum heading straight for us, leaving me no time to react. The floor flew out from under us as the other Disc sliced cleanly through the side of ours. A massive explosion threw me sideways, causing me to lose hand contact with the control panel, which disintegrated in a spectacular shower of sparks. As our Disc helplessly nosedived straight for the hard and unforgiving terrain of the planet below, I frantically telepathed one last, desperate order to veer away from built-up areas, hoping the Disc would somehow be able to respond. There was a shuddering lurch to the side, then came the impact, and total blackness. Everything around me was still and silent as death. Lying there in the tangled wreckage, not knowing up from down and afraid to move for fear of injury, floating in and out of consciousness, time lost all meaning. Then I felt a feeble, pain-wracked mind reaching out to me, making me aware that at least one of the others was still alive. Thank God I was not alone! Slowly disentangling myself from a twisted mass of fibre-optic cables, I crawled out from under part of the control panel that had caved in on top of me, and went in search of survivors. 'Alarca! Alarca! Over here! Please help me! I can't move!' It was Ashka, and she was pinned under the side of the Disc that had collapsed inwards under the impact of the crash. I got to her as fast as I could and somehow managed to prise the tangled metal up and off her body, but it was obvious she was badly injured; then I saw the others, all well and truly dead and beyond my help. Feeling sick in the stomach I turned my attention firmly back to Ashka, lifting her gently and carrying her outside. It was still dark, but our eyes adapt easily to night vision, so that was no problem, and I still had a good amount of almost pure oxygen stored in my lungs, which would keep me alive until my body could adapt itself to the impurities of Earth's atmosphere, just as long as I took things slowly and didn't panic. I went back to search for the first-aid kit, but by the time I returned to Ashka's side, it was obvious there wasn't much that could be done for her. 'Oh Alarca, I am so sorry It was all my fault I shouldn't have distracted you 'A thin, grey, four-fingered hand reached feebly for mine and she gasped in pain as her rapidly weakening thoughts telepathed into my mind. 'Ashka, no! It's all right!' I cried, holding her hand in both of mine to enable her to draw on the maximum amount of life- force energy. 'Please don't die! Don't leave me here all alone!' I desperately wanted to take her in my arms, but dared not because of the severity of her injuries. Instead of comforting her, I would only cause her more pain. Car headlights swept the area as a convoy of military vehicles arrived on the scene. Coarse, loud human speech assaulted our senses and the lights blinded me. My heart almost stopped beating in terror as a group of large, uniformed Earthlings descended upon us. I wanted to run, but could not leave Ashka alone and at their mercy, but when I looked back at her, she was dead. I cried out in an agony of fear, grief and despair, and for a fleeting moment my own emotions played over the features of a couple of the more sensitive humans present, as they picked up telepathically on my pain and fright. I struggled to my feet in panic and ran for the safety of the Disc, but a gunshot to my back sent me spinning downwards into blackness. My next awareness was of strange, stubby, five- fingered hands pulling me from the wreckage of the Disc, and of frantic activity, lights and sounds. I could not comprehend these sounds on the physical level, but knew it was human speech, and was at least able to pick up on the huge amount of emotion being generated. Then I felt myself being lifted, none too gently, which jolted another cry of pain out of me, but apart from one or two of them, these beings didn't seem to care much at all. My mind returned longingly to Ashka and the others, and to our Disc now fallen into Earthling hands, and my only thought was to get back to them, but my captors obviously anticipated an escape attempt, and made sure I was firmly secured. I tried to opulate -- to expand my body in order to break the bonds which held me -- but the bullet lodged in my back was beginning to poison and weaken me to such an extent that my energy system was rapidly failing. It was all I could do to breathe, let alone opulate, transmogrify or de-materialise. Awakening some time later, I found myself strapped tightly to a cold, hard surface in what seemed to be a laboratory or clinic of some sort. Strong, glaring lights blinded me and alien fingers prodded and probed my body without mercy. Then came the horrifying realisation that these humanoid creatures were about to perform an autopsy on me, and I wasn't dead!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Give Budd Hopkins The Floor From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:18:41 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:52:54 -0400 Subject: Give Budd Hopkins The Floor I must admit after reading the recent transcripts from the Larry King Show I've again got those chills. The chills from the abduction testimony and data. Since Budd Hopkins clearly put to rest the popular rumor that abductees are always asleep in their beds, the nonsensical theories of sleep paralysis by these so called experts needs to be tossed out once and for all. I, like many of you have read Budd Hopkins' books and attended his lectures. No one can scare you more than Budd Hopkins. I recall during one lecture how he recounted one of his subjects' abduction, a multiple abduction at that and the crowd was frozen in their seats after Mr. Hopkins explained the circumstances that the abduction occured during broad daylight and he had pictures that he displayed. I say Larry King should just give Budd Hopkins the floor, for a whole hour for Mr. Hopkins to tell his side of the story straight from his raw data. No abdcutees, no point-counterpoint nonsense just his straight from the shoulder data. Perhaps Larry could pile up some questions that cover the general queries, but after this last segment, I say Larry or some other top source should give Mr. Hopkins the floor without the host's constant interruptions or bizarre theories. Just let the man put it on the table. I would hope that Mr. Hopkins would issue a bulletin from his office that spells it out once and for all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 P47: Two Veteran Researchers Update Their Works From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:26:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:56:17 -0400 Subject: P47: Two Veteran Researchers Update Their Works Project 1947: Two Veteran Researchers Update Their Works Keith Basterfield has kindly offered the results of his latest efforts, his latest catalogues compiled during years of research of the Australian UFO scene. The catalogues cover a wide variety of UFO subjects: A Catalogue of Australian Observations of UFOS From Aircraft Crew Members and Passengers A Catalogue of Australian Abduction Cases A Catalogue of Australian UFO Entity and Related Reports A Catalogue of Australian Photographic UFO Reports A Catalogue of South Australian UFO Reports A Catalogue of Australian Physical Trace Cases A Catalogue of Australian UFO Vehicle Interference Cases These updated works join Keith's earlier contributions: A Draft Catalogue Of Reported UFO Cases Where Implants Are Mentioned and A Catalogue And Analysis Of Australian 'Angel Hair' Cases These catalogues cover hundreds of Australian cases. Keith's sources are varied: newspapers, magazine articles, accounts submitted by UFO witnesses, personal investigations, cases from the files of UFO groups and individual researchers, Australian government files, UFO books, and UFO journals. Project 1947 is honored to have Keith's monumental works. http://www.project1947.com/47cats.htm#keithb We are pleased to announce that important papers from Joel Carpenter's excellent former UFX website are now again available on Project 1947: Green Fireballs Over Los Alamos: The New Mexico Missile Crisis http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbintro.html and Green Fireball Chronology: 1946-February 1949Green Fireball Chronology http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html are two important works on the Green Fire Ball phenomenon. These two articles will anchor a number of other files and documents currently on line or currently in preparation on the subject. THE GHOST ROCKETS Guided Missiles and UFOs: A Tangle of Fear - 1937-53 http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm This four part article explores the relationships among various topics: rocketry and guided missile development, the Cold War and the aerial phenomena called ghost rockets and unidentified flying objects. Joel looks at the complex interplay here. Were the ghost rockets, as many believe, a precursors of the UFOs? Extensive investigations of the Ghost Rockets were made by a number of countries. Reports from attaches and intelligence officials; secret reconnaissance missions; leaks to the press; and concepts of artificial satellite, nuclear powered aircraft, and long range guided missiles; and strange reports both visually and on radar are presented. A large variety of sources were consulted and a number of unique documents and news accounts are presented in these articles. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:25:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:03:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Hebert >From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:13:21 -0600 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >UFO, UFOB, UAP, etc. are the semantic elements of Ufology. >Therefore, no matter what acronym a person uses the bottom line >fact remains as true today as it did in the beginning: Hi, Wendy: You're right, it doesn't matter what you call it as no term will cover all the events, objects and concepts accurately. How do you label something if you don't know what it is? It's not the name we need to change but the way we perceive and study UFOs. I think many on this list and around the world are beginning to recognize a need for change. It's there just below the surface and can no longer be denied. The new ufology. What is the "new ufology"? Heck if I know. LOL It appears to be something needed but not yet defined. It is what will take the place of the "old ufology" (whatever THAT was?!!). Perhaps it is more of a new and improved ufology rather than "out with the old and in with the new". I think the new ufology is just the old ufology becoming more refined and specific. The only real changes will be the introduction of new thoughts, new techniques and new perceptions. Why do some feel this need for a 'new ufology'? Because people are no longer content to just believe, they want _answers_. I, like many others, are tired of hearing the same stories, the same BS, going to the same conferences where the same people tell us the same information they've been telling us for decades. We must study the past but we must also chart new courses for tomorrow. People are tired of the lies and the deceptions. Even those who resist change long, deep inside, for something more and know it is on the horizon. Some progress has been made but not enough. We must acknowledge and thank those who have contributed and continue to contribute their time, resources and research to the study of UFOs. But it is time to reach beyond the current state of ufology, beyond our current awareness's and seek new paradigms, new insights into the truth about UFOs. How? By first recognizing our desire for more and acting accordingly. By building on our current knowledge base, we can _expand_ ufology to the next levels of investigation, research, interpretation and analysis. While introducing physical methods of detecting UFOs, we must also turn our "mental radars" inward and scan our own perceptions for personal bias and misconceptions. We must break down the language barriers and promote ufology to an international forum where information will be readily available to ALL in all languages. We must form centralized, _permanent_ databases where information, available in all languages, will contain previous and current research and investigations as well as proposed theses. Above all, we need to establish criteria for _objective_ research and journals to disseminate information, the likes of which have never been seen before. The status quo just doesn't cut it anymore. >An apparent manufactured object that does not equate to our own >technological abilities, which are observed in the atmosphere or >near/deep space, and always appears to be just beyond our own >technologies and abilities to understand. Thus, such objects are >no longer "magical" because we comprehend the basics of science >and technology, but remain an elusive, reality based, phenomenon >worthy of study. >Worthy of study and research because it is obvious that >technology more advanced than our own is in play. I must disagree, Wendy, nothing is "obvious" when it comes to UFOs. These objects may APPEAR to be just beyond our own technological and mental abilities to understand but it is not wise to assume they are. In fact, that is one of the main misconceptions/assumptions that has kept ufology from moving forward. Just because we don't know what it is does not mean it isn't ours. I use to think the same way...until I saw something that jolted me out of my preconceived realities. It wasn't until I began asking "could it be man-made?" and researched this possibility that I learned not to assume ANYTHING about UFOs...or the world in which we live. <snip> >The quest to understand is what is paramount regardless of the >final answer. The quest brings greater knowledge than the final >answer. I will go to the grave not knowing the answer, but with >no regrets, for the quest was ecstacy in itself and I got to >experience it. That's what it's all about, Wendy, the journey. And it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:33:49 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:08:34 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:31:43 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >That being >said, the discussion about the testimonies on alien bodies is >another, difficult matter, and I don't feel like engaging in >such a debate with you. I simply don't have any obligation to. Gildas No you are not under any obligation. But as you are so supportive of the alien angle and so against the Japanese body angle, I am very surprised that you are willing to discuss the debris field controversy and the press release controversy, but you won't provide evidence that you consider credible and that could vindicate your beliefs more than anything else - alien DNA, alien biology, etc. I am sure there are some on the List that may not be completely familiar with all of the data concerning the body angle - particularly people new to the List. And after you have been so vocal about why the Japanese body angle is wrong, they must be wondering why you are reluctant to provide any data on the alien body angle that you support. Based on your previous "fragile" comment about the credibility of the alien body angle, I now wonder if you _do_ support the body theory, or just the idea that unusual debris was found? If, as you admit, the alien body evidence is "fragile" that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:45:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:10:45 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:01 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >The question of space ships was not asked! I agree with David >Rudiak's comment: >"The above poll has been cited by some Net debunkers that people >weren't thinking 'alien spacecraft' as an explanation for the >saucers during the June/July 1947 wave. However, since that >isn't one of the categories separately listed in the poll, it is >invalid to draw such a conclusion". Gildas But have you not considered that the reason why the question about aliens was not asked in the poll was _precisely_ because of the reason that Jerry suggests - people weren't connecting disc sightings with alien visitors to any great extent! Why would the people doing the poll include the alien angle if it wasn't being discussed to any great extent at the time?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:48:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:15:02 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Clark >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:01 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:09:33 -0500 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' Gildas and Listfolk: >The first Gallup Poll on the subject, >released on August 14, 1947 ("now that the uproar over the >'flying saucers' has subsided"), uncovered so few respondents >mentioning ET explanations that they went unlisted in the >results. >Let me refer here to a previous exchange, on this List, between >Jan Aldrich and David Rudiak. In a message of 28 Feb. 1999 >("August 1947 Gallup Poll"), Jan Aldrich gave a summary of the >poll: >No answer, don't know: 33% >Imagination, optical illusions, mirages, etc.: 29% >Hoax: 10% >US secret weapon, part of atomic bomb, etc.: 15% >Weather forecasting devices: 3% >Russian secret weapon: 1% >Searchlights on airplanes: 2% >Other explanations: 9% >The question of space ships was not asked! I agree with David >Rudiak's comment: >"The above poll has been cited by some Net debunkers that people >weren't thinking 'alien spacecraft' as an explanation for the >saucers during the June/July 1947 wave. However, since that >isn't one of the categories separately listed in the poll, it is >invalid to draw such a conclusion". I don't know why debunkers are being mentioned in this context, unless you want to twist the argument into incoherence. In fact, as I've written elsewhere, polls like this invalidate a popular debunking cliche, for which no empirical evidence has ever been shown to exist, that in the early Cold War people were desperate to believe in saviors from outer space; thus, they imagined flying saucers. In reality, people weren't thinking about space visitors in any but the most trivial, humorous context. Gallup didn't ask about spaceships because, aside from Forteans, occultists, and a few jokesters, ET craft figured only marginally in popular speculation about the nature of the flying discs. In Gallup's "other explanations" - in which, I take it, we're supposed to believe the ET beliefs are hidden - spaceships continued to go unmentioned. In "other", according to Gallup, persons who were surveyed cited biblical interpretations, commercial products, or - my favorite - "radio waves from the Bikini atomic bomb explosion." Let me repeat: as late as 1951, according to Popular Science, even _witnesses_ overwhelmingly (96%) thought UFOs were something other than, as the poll put it, "visitors from afar." The idea of UFOs as ET visitors blossomed in the 1950s, for a number of reasons that are too complicated to go into here. It is certain, however, that a week after Kenneth Arnold's sighting, military investigators operated without our modern ideas of what a flying disc is supposed to be; they would not have thought automatically of a spaceship when they were sent out to a debris field where an unidentified aerial vehicle had crashed. If anything, they would have expected to find something secret and earthly. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the direction Nick Redfern takes his interpretation from there, on this one point I don't think there can be serious disagreement. The historical record
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:00:24 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:30:04 -0400 Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' - Harrison >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:19:42 +0100 >Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:35 +1000 >>Subject: Re: The Acronym 'UFO' ><snip> >>Of course the term UFO puts people off the subject, the >>extra-terrestrial subject that is. >>I absolutely despise the term UFO because it depotentiates the >>idea of extra-terrestrial life, yet, isn't Ufology focused on >>the study of all things ET? Hi Joe What do we have here? "The term UFO takes away the importance of extra-terrestrial life/research" - I think not. I agree with Terry: Each person is different and may have a different interpretation the words unidentified flying object/UFO due to social up bringing and their understanding of the words UFO/unidentified flying object. To say one despises the simplistic meaning of words like unidentified flying object - well what can I say? I get a little irritated, sometimes, with the lack of knowledge the media have of the meaning of these words UFO, but I take this as a sign of times, being this generations social understanding or misunderstanding of the meaning of these words is due to limited knowledge they have of the subject. I agree with Bruce, 'UFO' is everywhere so it won't be retired. Joe, I like people who try and change my mind, I might learn something new, which I'm always open to. Closing a conversation with "I'm not into doing someone's home work for them" will not solve this lack of knowledge or differences of opinions. If you feel you hold a piece of the puzzle why not share it? A participant with very little sun on ones head. ******************************************** Diane Harrison/Frola The Australian UFO Researcher Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Body Snatchers Review - Landahl From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:03:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:47:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Body Snatchers Review - Landahl >From: ufoupdates.nul >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - >Date: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:35 AM >Subject: UFO UpDate: Body Snatchers Review >Source: Raiders News Update - Sisters, Oregon >http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/heiser3.htm >20 July 2005 >Guest Opinions & Editorials >Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of >the Roswell Story >Nick Redfern, (Paraview-Pocket Books, a division of Simon & >Schuster, 2005) >Reviewed by Michael S. Heiser, Ph.D., Biblical Hebrew and >Ancient Semitic Languages (Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison); author >of The Facade; >www.michaelsheiser.com >www.sitchiniswrong.com >In last month's newsletter I directed readers to links for Nick >Redfern's important articles on his very human explanation of >the Roswell event. I also included Stanton Friedman's review of >Nick's book. My interest, of course, was due primarily to the >fact that Nick's view was essentially the same as I put forth >four years ago in The Facade - that the bodies connected with the >Roswell event were human unfortunates used by the "sanitized >Nazis" crawling through the corridors of our nation's defense >and aerospace industries. As promised, I have now read Nick's >book for myself and offer this review. In the course of sharing >my thoughts, I think it's important to interact with Stanton >Friedman's review. Stanton's stature and expertise in this area >are unquestioned. However, I believe that his dismissal of >Nick's position is hardly on firm footing, being built on >inconsistent reasoning and deflecting attention away from the >most salient details. Since he is the top researcher on this >issue, and since he did write a review of Redfern's book, he's >the best person to interact with concerning my own thoughts. But >before getting into the details, an overview is in order. <snip> >So where does this leave us? In my judgment, Redfern has >presented a compelling though imperfect and incomplete case that >potentially has comprehensive explanatory value. Yes, I'd love >an explicit document typing all this together, but even if one >surfaced and really was authentic, there would be those who >would refuse to believe it. What we do have is a quite plausible >scenario for what happened at Roswell and the knowledge of what >to look for to tighten the arguments. Just accomplishing that >much means Nick Redfern has performed a valuable service. Dear Listfolk, If Redfern has found the answers to the Roswell incident buried in human tragedy, then we are all the better for the knowledge. If Friedman has mapped the way to finding the Roswell truth in an extraterrestrial tragedy, then we are also all the better for the knowledge. The Roswell incident stands as an imposing and dominant landmark in the field of UFO studies. But please take care - do not give it so much weight that it prejudices the future course of UFO research. The UFO field needs to have objective research continue - research that is not predetermined by the solution to the Roswell mystery, whatever the definitive solution may be. If Redfern is right, do not let the ETH be deflated by default for all other UFO cases, past, present and future by letting a "secret government program" mindset dominate all else. If Friedman is right, do not let research into the extralegal, secret but terrestrial technology programs decline by letting the ETH mindset dominate all else. The answers UFO researchers will eventually discover will probably include both options. Horrible experiments on humans involving secret terrestrial technology did happen and may well happen again and the government entities involved did and will do everything they can to spread disinformation to hide their misdeeds; And extraterrestrial beings using extremely advanced alien technology have visited and will continue to visit our planet. Roswell may end up being a complex mixture of the Redfern and Friedman recipes. The answers UFO studies will find in the future to many other UFO cases most definitely will involve both.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:02:10 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:51:42 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:26 +0100 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>I am primarily thinking of the debris witnesses, you must be >>>aware of that, but now you want me to talk about the more >>>fragile area of witnesses for the alien bodies. >>Interesting that after criticizing me for believing testimony >>about Japanese bodies found in New Mexico, you yourself admit >>that the evidence for alien bodies is "fragile". ><snip> >I remind you both, that _no_ bodies were reported at any of the >Roswell crash sites in 1947. Had any actually been discovered I >find it inconceivable that such would not have been mentioned at >the time. There were a number of people whose comments appear in >the Roswell Daily Record for July 9, but none from anyone who >saw, or knew about, any bodies. Nor at any time in the ensuing >days, months or years. Yes, no bodies were reported at the time in the press. But that proves nothing if it was covered-up efficiently. BTW, how do you explain the Roswell press release, saying that Major Marcel had found a "flying disk" ? He never said that! So, you see, this detail alone hints to a much more complex story than what you think. >And I do not believe for one moment that people who did witness >the bodies, especially the civilians, were all sworn to secrecy. >A 35-year hush-up? A likely scenario! Not unlikely at all. >So, if there were indeed bodies (American, Japanese, ET, etc) >why not one word about them in July 47? >The bodies in fact did not enter the Roswell tale until 1980, >and even then it was only on the plains of San Agustin, not >Roswell. Roswell 'bodies' only began to appear in the mid-80s. You are completely wrong here, but it would take dozens of pages to show you. Apparently, you don't know much about the Roswell case. Read some good books and articles. You have a lot to study. >And there was of course no mention whatever of ET craft, Martians or the like in '47, as Nick says. I just showed that this is not really true, on a couple of examples, in my answer to Jerry Clark.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:32:15 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:53:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:01 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>1. Brazel - who made the original discovery - had _already_ >>found two weather balloons flown by the military. Is it totally >>unfeasible that he might have found a third balloon-based >>military device, even if not for weather-gathering purposes? >Obviously I can't say it is totally unfeasible, but I can't >find any basis for it. Remember Jesse's comment about nothing >conventional.. no wire, no vacuum tubes, no labels "made in >Oshkosh",I doubt if the Japanese were using alien technology and >materials.. and neither was the USAAF or Northrop. Nick and Stan, There is a much more simple answer: Brazel would have recognized a balloon, or balloon debris. And Marcel, and everybody in Roswell. And then, no press release, no Roswell case!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Fugo Balloons Essay At P47 Site From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 7:51:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:56:46 -0400 Subject: Fugo Balloons Essay At P47 Site With the great interest in Japanese Balloon Bombs we have put the UFX essay on Fugo balloon as a separate webpage PAPER THREAT The first intercontinental weapon system: Japanese Fu-Go Balloons By Joel Carpenter http://www.project1947.com/gfb/fugo.htm A bibliography is attached at the end of the article. There are large files on Fugos at the National Archives, and there is various material at Air Force Historical Research agency at Maxwell Air Force Base. The Western Defense Command records chronicled the discover and defense used against the balloons. One small error here. The Aircraft Warning Service was deactivated in May 1944. An ad hoc observation network was put together including forest rangers, fire look outs, police and federal assets to track the balloons. Dr. Lincoln LaPaz worked on the tracking of the Fugos. The 555d Parachute Infantry (the Triple Nickles) was sent to the Northwest to recover Fugos. Until recently their role in the operation was obscure due mostly to racial prejudice.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Morris From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:19:11 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:07:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Morris >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs Nick, Just a couple of comments.. >Stan >I will be the first to admit that we need to answer the >question of the unusual debris at Roswell. There are, however, >several points I would make: >1. Brazel - who made the original discovery - had _already_ >found two weather balloons flown by the military. Is it totally >unfeasible that he might have found a third balloon-based >military device, even if not for weather-gathering purposes? Not unreasonable at all, we know on July 8th 1947 itself 2 NYU/MOGUL balloon trains came down NW of Roswell and from Tom Crary's journal we also know farmers and ranchers in the area called in after finding NYU stuff. None was reported as being a "flying disc" though, as the stuff had "if found please return to..." labels on it. Or if it hadn't, as was the case with Mack Brazel they "assumed" it was something that belong to the AAF. The locals we not dumb, they knew all sorts of stuff was being sent up from White Sands and AAAF and what goes up usually comes down someplace. >2. If you look at Body Snatchers, page 114, the Colonel states >that what Brazel found was not just a field of balloon debris >and a body but also - and this may be critical - a nine-foot- >long piece of "lightweight covering material" from the aircraft >that had got "ripped away" from the aircraft when it and the >balloon array became catastrophically detached from each other. >Therefore, that may explain the difference between balloon >debris and other materials both intermingled at one site. On July 8th 1947 the debris was being described as being mainly "foil like" and large pieces were also described. Wilcox's office mentiones to the UP wire service one piece as being "as big as the Sheriff's safe" which was 4'x3'x3'. The point is though _IF_ this debris had been of a _conventional_ nature it _would_ have been identified as such. The people at RAAF knew what debris looked like, they had had to recover one of their own crashed B29's (together with the remains of the crew) just a couple of months before. So _something_ set _this_ debris very seriously appart from the conventional. >3. Take a look at those 4 links (pictures and data) I posted a >few days ago re the experiment to fly a huge blimp/balloon with >helicopters fixed to it. Then imagine if this failed in mid-air >and the blimp came down with a section of one of the helicopters >still attached. If someone found the blimp and then found the >helicopter materials too, people would say "Well, that is >obviously not balloon materials." And they would be correct >because it would be a part of the other device that remained >affixed to the blimp. The same scenario could work here. For >those that missed this, here are the links again: The Links: >http://www.piasecki.com/_borders/pa-97.1.jpg >http://www.piasecki.com/images/helstt.gif >http://www.piasecki.com/pa-97.htm >http://www.time.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,961709,00.html You need to limit yourself to what was known and feasable in July 1947. >3. And while I understand that Bessie Brazel Schreiber's >testimony has been discussed by Roswell researchers, it is a >fact that she stated: "The debris looked like pieces of a large >balloon which had burst...Most of it was a kind of double-sided >material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other." I've always had problems with this discription of the debris because as a rule balloons don't burst "explosively" even under pressure. If you grab a buch of balloons on strings and a large pin and pop the lot what do you end up with?. A load of burst balloons hanging limply at the end of the strings _but_ what you don't get is a large area of fragmented rubber around your feet!, maybe the odd piece but the majority of the balloons just tear/rupture and deflate at high speed hence the bang, but it's not "explosive" in the real sense, the balloon dosn't tear itself into a large number of fragments and go flying off in all directions. Following this train of thought you just wouldn't end up with large numbers of "balloon fragments" all over the place and this seems to be bourne out by NYU/MOGUL photos of their balloon train recoveries, their debris seems to be all very tightly confined in one spot, certainly in the aerial shots I've seen. So I'm afraid I feel Bessie's _thoughts_ as to the source of the debris she saw are a bit of a red herring and frankly misleading. Plus I don't believe anyone in that area was launching foil coated _neoprene_(Bessies rubber?) balloons, if in fact there were any?. But certainly foil coated polyethelene film balloon material _was_ used later, but in 1947 polyethelene balloon material was new technology having only first been used for balloons in Sept 1946 and people were still on a learning curve with it.. The NYU/MOGUL guys out at AAAF only introduced them into their later June/July 1947 flights and only converted to them fully in the 1948 series of flights from AAAF.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:19:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:19:53 -0400 Subject: Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 Source: The Japan Times Online - Tokyo http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20050720a1.htm July 20, 2005 Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 Germ Warfare Appeal to top court vowed By Masami Ito Staff writer The Tokyo High Court on Tuesday upheld a lower court decision denying Chinese plaintiffs compensation for germ warfare atrocities committed in China by the Imperial Japanese Army during the war. The lawsuit, filed in 1997 and 1999 by a combined 180 plaintiffs -- survivors and relatives of deceased victims -- had demanded 10 million yen in damages for each plaintiff and an apology from the Japanese government. The plaintiffs charged that the Imperial army's infamous Unit 731 spread fleas infected with bubonic plague among the populace and gave them food and water laced with cholera, killing many civilians. In August 2002, the Tokyo District Court recognized for the first time that Imperial army units, including 731, engaged in germ warfare, and that the state was responsible. However, the court dismissed the compensation demands, ruling that individuals have no right to sue for war damages. The plaintiffs appealed to the high court. On Tuesday, presiding Judge Yukio Ota acknowledged that the Imperial army violated the Geneva protocol, which prohibited use of bacterial weapons, and caused many deaths by spreading the bacteria between 1940 and 1942. But he supported the district court ruling and said international laws have clarified international responsibilities between countries and "do not give individual victims the right to demand direct compensation." The plaintiffs and their lawyers said they plan to appeal to the Supreme Court. At a later news conference, lawyer Koken Tsuchiya slammed the ruling, saying it basically condones wars of aggression and the government's refusal to take responsibility for waging germ warfare. The ruling shows "the court is submitting to the government," he said. "But the legislative, administrative and judicial powers are kept separate so they can keep an eye on each other." Zhang Lizhong, a plaintiff who lost four family members to the plague, was angered by the decision. "This ruling is completely unfair to the victims," said the 73- year-old from Hunan Province. "And I will fight until the end." Tsuchiya said the government has continuously refused to acknowledge it waged germ warfare in China and even denied the existence of Unit 731 throughout the district and high court hearings. Chemical gas cleanup Japan will remove chemical weapons in Guangzhou, southern China, that were abandoned by the Japanese Imperial Army at the end of World War II, following a poison gas accident in the city in June, the Cabinet Office said Tuesday.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:58:07 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:59:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 - >Source: The Japan Times Online - Tokyo >http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?>nn20050720a1.htm >July 20, 2005 >Ruling Upheld Nixing Redress Over Unit 731 Germ Warfare >Appeal to top court vowed >By Masami Ito >Staff writer >The Tokyo High Court on Tuesday upheld a lower court >decision >denying Chinese plaintiffs compensation for germ warfare >atrocities committed in China by the Imperial Japanese Army >during the war. That's a damned shame! More info on Unit 731 is coming out each day it seems. I'm glad Nick Redfern's new book helped stir it up again. There's one thing about Ufology I have always appreciated and that is that no matter which area of Ufology you research you will find things that needed to be brought to light. I often muse that the powers that be aren't worried about us discovering about ETs but they're worried we'll find out about all the dirt and skeletons in the closet there are. I'm sure sooner than later the real deal about Unit 731 and probably other such fiendish things will rise to the top.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 22 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:04:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:19:35 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:01 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs <snip> >>Nick, I don't understand the connection. The Piaseki stuff >>wasn't built until 1986 when helicopter engines were much more >>powerful.. Again there would have been conventional materials in >>the wreckage.. none at the Brazel ranch >Yes, but the point I was trying to make by using the Link as an >example (and as nothing else) is that when you have a "hybrid" >style device that combines two vehicles (whether blimp and >helicopter as per the Link, or balloon array and Horten-like >device as per the book) and it crashes, then there >is a >potential for materials from both vehicles to be intermingled at >the same crash site. >It would resonate with witnesses that while some of the >material looked balloon-like, some of it didn't, and that would >puzzle them and stay with them. That could also lead to the >idea/thought that this wasn't a balloon. And technically, they >would be partly correct because the part that wasn't balloon >debris was from the other device. <snip> >I agree that Marcel's and Bill Brazel's testimony did not >change. But for me the most important thing is that the reason >why it was accepted as evidence of something strange is because >they were describing finding materials (lightweight materials, >etc.) that wouldn't be found in a balloon scenario. In other >words, it may have been the finding of the other material that >specifically laid the foundation that this wasn't a balloon. Hi Nick, Stan, I hesitate to get into this thread's debate. Anyone familiar with aircraft, and Marcel was, would not have had any problem with the many types of material laying on the ground in a glider/ballon hybred crash site. There were only basically four materials to be seen other than instruments and various fluids. These were, aluminum [magnesium at war's end metals ,high-grade, aircraft quality plywood and structural woods and fabric with a buterate coating. The ballons were either made of -mylar, rice paper, or linen or silk-also see fabric. Pilots, pilot officers, pilots in general and aircraft personal grew up with these materials [except mylar which isn't in this equation] which were around in and in use in light and fighters since before World War One [and many still are] and none of it was exotic in nature. You would take one glance and say, "Looks like a ballon and a glider crashed on the same spot." You didn't/don't have to be airforce to recognize these materials. Any pilot or ground personal who worked around or in aircraft, whether military of civilian would have seen nothing unusual in these materials. They might have raised their eyebrows at the two crashing together however, but in Marcel's case he seemed to be more impressed with the material found than just the mundane. Many of you will recall the photograph of a charred body in a wreck that some initially thought was a burned alien until you noticed the frames of a pair of US Optical sunglasses nearby. I was puzzled years ago when I first saw this in a book about UFOs because the first thing that leaped out at me was the chrome-moly steel cluster welds in the photo which indicated a fabric aircraft from one of a dozen or more Aeronca/Piper Cub/Cessna-L19 or even Bell-47 helicopter type aircraft. This construction method was/is used all over the world. A pilot, a regular passenger in military aircraft of that time, the ground handling personal, the rest of the aircrew and the maintenance people would have been as familier with all of the aforementioned materials and tube construction as they would have been with Kellog's Corn Flakes. To suggest that Marcel or any of the other people out picking up the debris would have been fooled by a combination of the two is not plausible; confused perhaps as to why the two were together in such great quantities, but not dismayed. What would have dismayed them would have been any materilas displaying properties which did not subscribe to the norm. Another observation. A balloon towing/lifting a big flying wing [which is unstable to begin with] type glider would have been extremely unwieldy and each of the two componants-the balloon lifting and the glider wing trying to fly would have fought one another from the point of take off and likely wouldn't have made it a couple of hundred yards. Don't come back at me with hot-air ballons and small stable hang-gliders, these are two separate things. There have been many aircraft recovered by helicopters from swamps and lakes etc. To transport, the wings usually have to be removed or their lifting capability neutralized otherwise little progress can be made and the crew of the chopper can be in jeopardy. The whole balloon/ Horton flying wing contraption makes no sense for use in the terrible experiment being conducted-if it was conducted. As one researcher has noted it's like a rubber Zodiac boat towing a nuclear submarine. The whole experiment could have been carried out on the ground. I'm am really surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that there seems-in Nick's scenario-that this contraption would have been released with no safeguards in place. No chase planes or any monitoring from the ground. It was just released and let the chips-or nuclear pile-fall where it may? Doesn't anyone think that this would have been rank stupidity on the part of the scientists and aeronautics team conducting the experiment? What if this thing had crashed in a town or city nearby or at Roswell AAF Base. It's now supposed by Nick that perhaps that this is what Brazel found and what the team conducting the experiment, lost. The nuclear pile? What happened to that. It would have been very heavy, thereby necessitating a huge balloon envelope to get that and the glider and occupants aloft. And perhaps the pile was leaking after the crash; it was constructed, afterall, to leak it's radiation on the crew . Any indications from the original Roswell scenario that anyone was injured by radiation? How did they lose it? Why would they risk losing something that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Body Snatchers Review - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:36:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:35:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Body Snatchers Review - Redfern >From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:03:43 -0700 >Subject: Re: Body Snatchers Review >The Roswell incident stands as an imposing and dominant landmark >in the field of UFO studies. But please take care - do not give >it so much weight that it prejudices the future course of UFO >research. The UFO field needs to have objective research >continue - research that is not predetermined by the solution to >the Roswell mystery, whatever the definitive solution may be. Erik I agree entirely with you on this. Roswell is just one of many cases. As people who know me are aware, I am still a believer in the existence of a genuine UFO phenomenon of some sort that does not originate with us. In fact, it was my dad's own "encounter" while working radar for the British Royal Air Force in the 50s that prompted that interest. However, what has changed for me is (obviously) my beliefs re Roswell and the bigger issue of crashes, alien bodies in storage, etc. Plus, with books such as Greg Bishop's Project Beta, we see the official hand manipulating the subject and players within it to incredible levels. And this makes me wonder: how often has this been done without our knowledge? So, collectively, I fully accept there are genuine UFO mysteries out there that are totally baffling. And I think that there is a tendency to lump everything UFO-related under one, unified banner, when your point is very valid - we _should_ be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:51:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:37:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:19:11 +0100 >Subject: Re: >Plus I don't believe anyone in that area was launching foil >coated _neoprene_(Bessies rubber?) balloons, if in fact there >were any?. But certainly foil coated polyethelene film balloon >material _was_ used later, but in 1947 polyethelene balloon >material was new technology having only first been used for >balloons in Sept 1946 and people were still on a learning curve >with it.. The NYU/MOGUL guys out at AAAF only introduced them >into their later June/July 1947 flights and only converted to >them fully in the 1948 series of flights from AAAF. Neil, Yes the polyethylene balloons _were_ new in 47, same for the foil-coated polyethylene ones. But, the point you make about the fact that polyethylene was used as far back as September 1946 is also correct - and Roswell was nearly a year after. That's almost a 10-month window of opportunity for study and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:10:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:39:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:19:11 +0100 >Subject: Re: >Plus I don't believe anyone in that area was launching foil >coated _neoprene_(Bessies rubber?) balloons, if in fact there >were any?. But certainly foil coated polyethelene film balloon >material _was_ used later, but in 1947 polyethelene balloon >material was new technology having only first been used for >balloons in Sept 1946 and people were still on a learning curve >with it.. The NYU/MOGUL guys out at AAAF only introduced them >into their later June/July 1947 flights and only converted to >them fully in the 1948 series of flights from AAAF. Neil One other thing - don't you think it's interesting that the Mogul people introduced the new polyethylene balloons in June/July 1947? As this was brand new - largely - in June/July 1947, people who might have seen or recovered military balloons prior to June/July 1947 (such as Brazel himself), would have recognized - if they found one - that the new balloons incorporated different material. We know that Brazel found in the desert pre-polyethylene balloons launched by the military and so he would have known what the earlier ones looked like. But, if he came across one of the brand new polyethylene balloons (perhaps even aluminum coated) he would have recognized that this was something different from the old balloons that he had experience with. Even though a lot of Listers won't agree with me, I do find it very illuminating that it was in the critical period of July 1947 that this new material - polyethylene - was introduced. And it's in this _exact_ time frame that we hear of new materials found out in the desert, and found specifically by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Contacting John Keel From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:44:48 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:51:50 -0400 Subject: Contacting John Keel Hello, Does anyone have any contact information for Mr. John Keel? After searching for a possible e-mail address, I discovered that he hates computers. I have recently had some experiences that I think he may be interested in hearing. I believe my experiences may shed light on some of his theories regarding "Ultra- Terrestrials". I don't even mind sharing with anyone else provided that it could be somehow passed on to Mr. Keel, although I do prefer a p.o. box number or similiar address. Just to give you a hint of what has happened to me let me expain that I have been researching the myseries of Rennes-le-Cahteau in France for about 10 years now when I recently had a breakthrough. Not only have I solved the mystery and found the elusive location of the "treasure" but I have also spoken with the woman who guards it as well. Of course I plan on revealing all in an upcoming book. My problems began shortly after this discovery. I began to experience all kinds of weird happenings and events, poltergiest, some weird telepathic moments, strange coincidences, etc. I have also been contacted by, "Things", for lack of a better work. These "things" seemed to be upset, jealous even, of my discovery concerning Rennes. I got the impression they were upset because I knew something they did not know. Whatever these entities are they seem to be able to posses people and control them like puppets. My sister even went into a spontaneous "channeling" session while visiting my apartment. One of these "things" took over and told me it was "communicator" sent to give me a message. The message was "You pose no threat to us. We will posses you in time." After reading Keel's work I have found that these entities are quite fond of using the phrase "In Time", whixh is why I need to speak to Mr. Keel. After the "channeling" ended my sister had no memory of saying or doing anything and in fact to this day denies that it happened even though my brother was a witness to the event as well. If anybody can help me out by providing a contact address or even a third party medium I would be most grateful.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:19:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:53:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects >UK Bicyclist Reports Mysterious, Low Hovering Objects Bending Wheat >"...I am certain that there is some other form of intelligence, >either on this planet or visiting the crops from somewhere else. >I have no doubt about that after seeing what I saw." - Mike >Booth, Marlborough, U. K. Resident >More at: >http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=931&category=Environment EBK, Stuart, List, Mike Booth's fascinating account might stimulate some new thoughts regarding crop circles and the meaning of their designs. I know it has for me. If what Mike relates is true, and we have absolutely no reason to doubt that it is, then the elaborate patterns found in modern circles are attempts at communication. Since I don't believe there is evidence for "star beings(ET)", ghosts, spirits, extra-dimensions, time-travel or god, my only interpretation is that another civilization shares our planet and solar system and is trying to communicate. We could reciprocate by creating our own designs. That might elicit a response. Perhaps it already has; the numerous hoaxed designs may have been interpreted by our neighbors as such a response. Could this misinterpretation of our intentions have unintentionally caused the increase in circle activity in recent years? These mouse-like machines that Mike witnessed must have some function and therefore are guided by intelligent beings.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Secrecy News -- 07/22/05 - Aftergood From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:59:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:55:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 07/22/05 - Aftergood SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 68 July 22, 2005 ** DOD PROPOSES TO TIGHTEN RULES ON FOREIGN SCIENTISTS ** REVISITING THE HHS OBJECTION TO THE PNAS BIOTERRORISM PAPER ** DJIBOUTI RATIFIES THE CTBT DOD PROPOSES TO TIGHTEN RULES ON FOREIGN SCIENTISTS The Department of Defense is proposing to tighten its contracting rules to restrict access by foreign nationals working in U.S. labs to information and technology that is export-controlled, a move that could wreak havoc in university research centers and elsewhere. "Any access to export-controlled information or technology by a foreign national or a foreign person anywhere in the world, including the United States, is considered an export to the home country of the foreign national or foreign person," the proposed rule states. Accordingly, any such access must be restricted, or licensed, DoD contends. The rule was published in the Federal Register on July 12: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/07/fr071205.html University administrators and others say the export control requirements, strictly interpreted, would be so onerous as to cripple many DoD-funded university research programs, where foreign nationals make up a large fraction of working scientists. "To comply," explained reporter Yudhijit Bhattacharjee in Science Magazine today, "universities and companies working on defense projects would not only need licenses to enable foreign nationals to participate in the research but would also need to protect export-controlled information through an 'access control plan' that includes 'unique badging requirements for foreign nationals' and 'segregated work areas'." Rather than adopt such practices, some university researchers say, they would decline DoD contracts. The proposed rule follows on a March 2004 DoD Inspector General report which found that "DoD does not have adequate processes to identify unclassified export-controlled technology and to prevent unauthorized disclosure to foreign nationals." See "Export-Controlled Technology at Contractor, University, and Federally Funded Research and Development Center Facilities," DoD Inspector General report, March 25, 2004: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/igexport.pdf A parallel move by the Department of Commerce to restrict so- called "deemed exports" has raised analogous concerns (Secrecy News, 05/02/05). REVISITING THE HHS OBJECTION TO THE PNAS BIOTERRORISM PAPER In an extraordinary intervention last May, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) approached the National Academy of Sciences and asked the Academy not to publish a pending scientific paper on the consequences of a terrorist attack on the U.S. milk supply. Secrecy News belatedly obtained a copy of the May 27 HHS letter spelling out its concern that the paper by Lawrence Wein and Yifan Liu constituted "a road map for terrorists." See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/hhs052705.pdf It should be said that HHS did nothing wrong. The letter, from HHS Assistant Secretary Stewart Simonson, advanced a public safety argument against publication but did not present any threat of censorship or other form of coercion. Having given due consideration to the HHS argument, the Academy went on to publish the controversial paper anyway in the June 28, 2005 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. It is some kind of landmark in the post-9/11 record of freedom of publication. Even so, scientific critics -- principally Milton Leitenberg and George Smith -- argued that the paper is a poor guide to public policy since it is predicated on unfounded assumptions regarding the availability of botulinum toxin, and uninformed by an awareness of the actual security measures that are in place to protect the milk supply (Secrecy News, 06/14/05). DJIBOUTI RATIFIES THE CTBT The East African nation of Djibouti this month became the 122nd nation to ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty which would bar the explosive testing of nuclear weapons. The CTBT preparatory commission announced the move in a July 21 press release. See: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/07/ctbt072105.html The United States is not among the ratifiers. _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:54:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:58:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Another observation. A balloon towing/lifting a big flying wing >[which is unstable to begin with] type glider would have been >extremely unwieldy and each of the two componants-the balloon >lifting and the glider wing trying to fly would have fought one >another from the point of take off and likely wouldn't have made >it a couple of hundred yards. >> Don, As the interviewees pointed out, after the crash, the project _was_ canceled, precisely because it wasn't seen as being a feasible project. If it had worked it would have been wonderful. But that was why there was a crash - it failed badly. In fact, it seems unlikely that anything like this operation was ever undertaken again - precisely for the reason you cite: it _was_ unwieldy. As one of the sources said, this was one of a number of bizarre and completely "dipshit" ideas that were looked at, that were attempted, but that were scrapped when they weren't seen as having any real merit. That's the point my sources were keen to stress: the projects were not super-successful - they were bizarre and 'dippy' and failed - miserably. As for a recovery team on stand-by, I asked about this specifically. The response: the idea was to have to the aircraft lifted (as a rigidly-held payload, not towed or hanging precariously, but rigidly fixed) underneath a huge balloon array. Then the plan was to have the crew - at a low level - detach the aircraft and land it. So everything would have been over in no time at all. And the plan was to recover the balloons later. The reason being that if the balloons went off-range and anyone found them, as with Mogul they would have no idea what they would have been used for because they were relatively conventional balloons. Like Mogul, it was what the balloons were being used for that was classified not the balloons themselves. However, when the aircraft became catastrophically partly detached from the balloon array, here was the situation of the whole thing rising to a higher altitude, and going off-range, which was never anticipated. And the reason why there was so much secrecy in the recovery of the balloon array (which wouldn't have been necessary if the aircraft had detached correctly) was because part of the outer coating of the aircraft was ripped away when the two components did separate, and that coating came down on the Foster Ranch, as did one body. Therefore, if in a worst case scenario someone found the balloon debris (as Brazel did), then the military realized that there was a chance of finding this other material (the coating and the remaining body), hence the stringent security at the ranch. If Brazel had just found balloon debris, there would be no storm because there was nothing controversial about the balloons. But the unfortunate fact that Brzael stumbled upon the other things too, is what led to the clampdown at the ranch. >The nuclear pile? What happened to that. > How many times can I say this? As I explain in the book, there is _no_ "nuclear pile" and _no_ nuclear angle of any sort to the crash at Roswell. That does not appear _anywhere_ at all in my book. You are confusing this with other experiments cited in the book that occurred in New Mexico in mid-1947 that were nuclear related. The Roswell event - according to the interviewees -involved nothing beyond a huge balloon array, a glider, and a trained
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:07:11 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:01:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gottschall >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:25:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:13:21 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War ><snip> >>UFO, UFOB, UAP, etc. are the semantic elements of Ufology. >>Therefore, no matter what acronym a person uses the bottom line >>fact remains as true today as it did in the beginning: ><snip> >It's not the name we need to change but the way we perceive and >study UFOs. I think many on this list and around the world are >beginning to recognize a need for change. It's there just below >the surface and can no longer be denied. The new ufology. Amy, you go girl! Personally I think we need a quickening of our internal evolution so our perception can switch to panoramic mode. What's that saying? "If you always do what you've always done then you're always going to get what you've always got". Ufology seems to be stuck in a groove it can't get out of. >What is the "new ufology"? Heck if I know. LOL It appears to be >something needed but not yet defined. >It is what will take the place of the "old ufology" (whatever >THAT was?!!). I'm not sure we can move on until we define ufology, old or new. We don't even have a starting point to move from, retire from, jump off the cliff from or just roll over and die from. <snip> >Why do some feel this need for a 'new ufology'? Because people >are no longer content to just believe, they want _answers_. Uh-oh, another word I despise - "believe". <snip> >But it is time to reach beyond the current state of ufology, beyond our >current awareness's and seek new paradigms, new insights into >the truth about UFOs. How? By first recognizing our desire for >more and acting accordingly. Maybe it's also a matter of treading water until our mental parameters have time to develop beyond where they are now. It might seem like we're getting nowhere but if we're going to ask questions whose answers take us beyond our current understanding we need to make room in our minds for them to reside, so there's a lot of inner work that needs to be done too. People keep forgetting that point. <snip> >While introducing physical methods >of detecting UFOs, we must also turn our "mental radars" inward >and scan our own perceptions for personal bias and >misconceptions. Yep, I struggle with this all the time. When I hear some reports I'm very aware of my mind wanting to close off to what I'm hearing. I have to work at keeping my mind open long enough to at least check it out. >We must break down the language barriers and >promote ufology to an international forum where information will >be readily available to ALL in all languages. Does that include the male and female language too? (wink) >We must form centralized, _permanent_ databases where information, >available in all languages, will contain previous and current >research and investigations as well as proposed theses. Sheesh, now you're tiring me out. Can't we just wing that one? >Above all, we need to >establish criteria for _objective_ research and journals to >disseminate information, the likes of which have never been seen >before. In my small opinion objective research is one of the many myths we keep buying into. >The status quo just doesn't cut it anymore. Never did. ><snip> >>The quest to understand is what is paramount regardless of the >>final answer. The quest brings greater knowledge than the final >>answer. I will go to the grave not knowing the answer, but with >>no regrets, for the quest was ecstacy in itself and I got to >>experience it. Wendy, I agree and you sound like a philosopher, a girl after my own heart. But I'd like my headstone to read:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Thoughts On The Redfern Theory From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:28 -0400 Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory I've been away the last month or I would have jumped into this discussion earlier. I haven't read Nick Redfern's book yet, so my comments about Nick's thesis are based on descriptions of it that I've seen. In brief, it strikes me as an enormous stretch for a number of reasons, some already raised by others on the List. My key problems with it are: 1. The theory can't explain the many descriptions of highly anomalous metallic and other debris. Such materials simply did not exist in 1947 and are only now being developed. For a compendium of Roswell witness debris descriptions and _current_ developments in advanced materials' technology see my website: http://roswellproof.com/debris_main.html http://roswellproof.com/debris9_nanotech.html 2. Even ignoring the obvious discrepancies in physical properties, the vast bulk of debris described at the Brazel debris field was metallic in nature. Most of the debris from an alleged Fugo balloon crash, even in combination with a Horten flying wing made of metal, would _not_ be metallic. Fugo balloons were made of rice paper, not metal. I might also note that part of Marcel's testimony in his Linda Corley interview was some material that looked like it could have come from a balloon, a metallic, cloth-like material, couldn't have been from a balloon because it was porous - he could blow right threw it. See: http://roswellproof.com/debris2_memory_foil.html#anchor_3605 3. Even ignoring physical properties and types of material, the theory can't explain the very large debris field, Marcel thought it was caused by a craft coming apart at _high_ speed, hence it's long, linear nature as described by both Marcel and Bill Brazel Jr. How does a Fugo balloon fly at very high speed? How does it create a debris field about 300 feet wide by 3/4 mile long? 4. Even ignoring all of the above, there is no explanation as to why there was no recovery operation until Brazel came to town to report the crash. Supposedly this was a supersecret, supersensitive project with all sorts of dire repercussions if it was found out and yet nobody bothers to track it or search for it when it goes down? How believable is that? It's not even a case of this being dense jungle or snow covered mountains where a craft could go down and disappear from view. The Brazel place is wide out in the open, basically a vast plain with very little vegetation. A crash would have been _quickly_ found if anybody was out looking. Therefore, obviously nobody was looking because there was nothing lost to look for. 5. I find it a remarkable "coincidence" that Nick Redfern's theory is almost identical to the one proposed by Jim Wilson in the July 1997 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine. Wilson also proposed a Fugo balloon lifting a Horten flying wing manned by a Japanese crew brought over in the Japanese equivalent of Operation Paperclip. About the only differences are Wilson proposed the crew being regular pilots or engineers instead of human radiation guinea pigs and didn't mention anything about nuclear reactors. Here's an excerpt form Wilson's article at: http://tinyurl.com/dpdw9 --- A Japanese UFO As our investigation neared its close, PM was alerted to a forthcoming release of documents that may fill in these two missing pieces of the Roswell puzzle. They may also explain two other curiosities: the presence of the crisscrossed radar- deflecting pattern on the bottom of the Roswell craft, and=96to the consternation of those who seek an unearthly explanation for Roswell=96the origin of the "dead aliens" who have so often been described as having Oriental features. PM has been told that the documents scheduled for future release will tell of a Japanese counterpart to Operation Paperclip. One of its purposes was to determine if the Japanese had constructed a suicide-piloted version of the Fugo incendiary bomb. During the Second World War, the Japanese launched these unmanned high- altitude balloons in the hope that they would land in the Pacific Northwest, explode, ignite forest fires and thereby deprive the war effort of needed lumber. The effort was an obvious failure. The Japanese may have attempted to build a second generation of Fugos that could be guided to targets by suicidal pilots. PM suspects the craft that crashed at Roswell will eventually be identified as either a U.S. attempt to re-engineer a second- generation Fugo, or a hybrid craft which uses both Fugo lifting technology and a Horten-inspired lifting body. In either case, Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site. Also, equipped with a rudimentary radar-deflecting underside, such a balloon could have reached stratospheric altitudes as it traveled over Western Europe and been well above the range of then-existing MiG fighters and missiles even if it had been detected. It could have carried out both photo reconnaissance and air sampling experiments=96similar to those of the Mogul balloon=96before gliding back to Earth in friendly territory. Fifty years after the fact, the questions about Roswell still ring loud and clear. Our investigation leads us to believe the explanations that require an extraterrestrial presence, while possible, are nevertheless highly implausible. We're putting our money on a flying disc labeled "Made In Japan." --- I emailed Wilson back then, asking him if the Air Force had put the bug in his ear with this theory. He denied the Air Force had anything to do with it. See the UpDates Archive: http://tinyurl.com/apv8z I assumed then that Wilson had dreamt the whole thing up on his own to capitalize on the 50th anniversary of Roswell. But now Nick Redfern is putting out basically the same theory, with an anonymous Lt. Colonel as a primary source. There is simply too much in common between the Wilson and Redfern stories for this to be coincidence. This raises a number of possibilities, among them being: 1. Wilson originally dreamt it up, but others copycatted the theory and then presented it to Redfern as fact. 2. Both Wilson and Redfern were approached by the same sources, who fed them the story, true or not. I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a researcher, but frankly I think he's been set up. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that researchers have been approached by "insiders," who then fed them disinformation. The whole Paul Bennewitz affair in the early 1980s immediately leaps to mind. Such stings can have a multitude of objectives. One is to insert even more confusion into the field and set researchers bickering with each other for years. Another might be to discredit researchers. Bill Moore, e.g., was ultimately ruined by his association with the Bennewitz affair. The only thing I find amusing in all this is the position the debunkers are placed in. They completely bought into the Air Force's 1994 Mogul balloon story and 1997 time-traveling crash dummies. If they now jump onto the Fugo balloon/Horten flying wing bandwagon, they would have to admit they were played for complete fools. If some jump on board, but others adhere to the Mogul balloon scenario, then they have split into two warring camps, each claiming to have the ultimate solution to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:45:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:08:20 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Allan >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:02:10 +0200 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>So, if there were indeed bodies (American, Japanese, ET, etc) >>why not one word about them in July 47? >>The bodies in fact did not enter the Roswell tale until 1980, >>and even then it was only on the plains of San Agustin, not >>Roswell. Roswell 'bodies' only began to appear in the mid-80s. >You are completely wrong here, but it would take dozens of pages >to show you. Apparently, you don't know much about the Roswell >case. Read some good books and articles. You have a lot to >study. Not at all. It is you who are completely wrong. After the furore of 1947, nothing whatever appeared about Roswell until the publication of "The Roswell Incident" in 1980. (All right, I admit there was the odd brief reference in some earlier books, but that is all, and certainly no mention of bodies). Therefore, if there was nothing of substance published until 1980, it follows that the first mention of bodies was not until then at the earliest (unless you can locate an earlier reference). The witnesses were not interviewed until 1979. And even then there was no reference to bodies at Roswell, only a second- hand tale about bodies on San Agustin Plains. I think it was Randle & Schmitt who first located witnesses who claimed to have seen, or heard about, Roswell bodies. But these witnesses only popped up in the mid-1980s. It is up to you to demonstrate, by means of a contemporary report, that someone indeed saw bodies in 1947 and mentioned it then or soon after. Hughie Green wrote to FSR in 1955 about hearing the radio broadcast whilst in New Mexico, but even he does not mention any bodies. Likewise Scully talked about bodies in 1950, but these were at Aztec, not Roswell. If you have evidence that Roswell bodies were mentioned either
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:03:35 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:14:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Morton >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:19:35 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:01 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs <snip> >A pilot, a regular passenger in military aircraft of that time, >the ground handling personal, the rest of the aircrew and the >maintenance people would have been as familier with all of the >aforementioned materials and tube construction as they would have >been with Kellog's Corn Flakes. >To suggest that Marcel or any of the other people out picking up >the debris would have been fooled by a combination of the two is >not plausible; confused perhaps as to why the two were together >in such great quantities, but not dismayed. While the point is differentiating between 2 types of debris, let me regress one moment to make a point about identifying a single type of debris - that of a large, crashed jet aircraft. I happened to be at the Air Reserve hangar at the Minneapolis/ St. Paul airport, one Saturday morning in September, 1958, when they were bringing in the debris from a crashed B-52. It had crashed in the nearby suburb of Inver Grove Heights the day before. It had been on a training mission, and had a problem at high altitude with a wandering elevator trim tab (electrically controlled). There was one survivor. See: http://www.aerohistorians.org/features/b52crash.htm About half the hangar was filled with debris, and they were still bringing it in by the truckload. Most of the pieces were very small. The largest piece I saw at that time (probably before they found the vertical stabilizer) was a bent escape hatch about 4ftx3ft. The rest of the pieces were about 1 inch long to 1 foot long. There were thousands of little pieces of twisted aluminum, as well as other items. Some parachutes and other personal items were hanging on the wall or placed to the side on a table next to the wall. I didn't see any recognizable engines, although they may have arrived after I left. Looking at the debris for the first time, it was blatantly obvious what it was: The remains of a large, crashed jet aircraft. I had no background in viewing such materials. Incredibly, I was just a high school student. (Why I was there is a long story...). I had never seen a B-52 before, and had obviously never been in one or inspected the wheel wells or bomb bays. I realize that the topic on the table is the ability of Marcel and others to understand what they were looking at, and it's suggested that what they were looking at was a combination of a Horten glider and balloon. In the past, the Air Force has suggested (if I remember correctly) that Marcel was so befuddled by the Mogul balloon materials that that he didn't recognize it for what it was. My point here is that even though I had no experience at all in viewing crashed aircraft, and had never even seen a B-52, the debris on the floor of the hangar (and on the walls) was instantly recognizable as a large, crashed jet aircraft. No prior exposure or training was required. One could always claim that the location (the hangar) and the fact that I knew what it was beforehand cancels out my point that no prior exposure or training was required. IE, I was pre- conditioned to think it was the crashed B-52. Pre-conditioned or not, if a person couldn't correctly interpret what that aircraft debris was, they probably would have ridden the short bus to school because it was obvious what it was. Twisted aluminum, tubing, fittings, sheet metal, wires, motors, pumps, brackets, pieces of glass, housings, braided holders for things, dials and switches, panel lights, maps, parachutes, briefcases, etc, all added up to one thing: A large, crashed military aircraft. Summary: I think it's very easy to identify debris from earthly aircraft and balloons. I have the same opinion for identifying crashed rockets. There's a look and feel of "made here by Earth people for purposes of lifting, holding, strengthening, electrically or hydraulically communicating, etc" that is as familiar as a car or a model airplane to everyone who's seen a car and looked under the hood, and seen or built a flyable model airplane. Whether it's made of wood and mylar or aluminum and magnesium makes no difference, and whether it's 1947 or 1958 also makes no difference. Such a crashed object shouts "Made on Earth by smart human beings." The debris of a crashed flying saucer would probably shout "Not made on Earth by even smarter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:11:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:16:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Shell >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Hi Nick, Stan, >I hesitate to get into this thread's debate. >Anyone familiar with aircraft, and Marcel was, would not have had >any problem with the many types of material laying on the ground >in a glider/ballon hybred crash site. There were only basically >four materials to be seen other than instruments and various >fluids. These were, aluminum [magnesium at war's end metals >,high-grade, aircraft quality plywood and structural woods and >fabric with a buterate coating. The ballons were either made of >-mylar, rice paper, or linen or silk-also see fabric. Marcel was certainly familiar with balloons and aircraft, and the materials both were made from. What he found was so different that he went by his home before returning to the base just so his family could see the materials first hand. Jesse, Jr., does not think the things he saw that night were balloon and/or aircraft debris. <snip> >A pilot, a regular passenger in military aircraft of that time, >the ground handling personal, the rest of the aircrew and the >maintenance people would have been as familier with all of the >aforementioned materials and tube construction as they would have >been with Kellog's Corn Flakes. Right! Be careful, Don. Now that you have said that someone will come up with documents to substantiate that there was a group secretly researching force-feeding Kelloggs Corn Flakes to deformed Japanese prisoners. >To suggest that Marcel or any of the other people out picking up >the debris would have been fooled by a combination of the two is >not plausible; confused perhaps as to why the two were together >in such great quantities, but not dismayed. Absolutely right! Marcel made the point many times that what he found was unlike anything he had seen or handled before. <snip> >I'm am really surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that >there seems-in Nick's scenario-that this contraption would have >been released with no safeguards in place. No chase planes or any >monitoring from the ground. It was just released and let the >chips-or nuclear pile-fall where it may? Doesn't anyone think >that this would have been rank stupidity on the part of the >scientists and aeronautics team conducting the experiment? >What if this thing had crashed in a town or city nearby or at >Roswell AAF Base. It's now supposed by Nick that perhaps that >this is what Brazel found and what the team conducting the >experiment, lost. Excellent point! >The nuclear pile? What happened to that. It would have been very >heavy, thereby necessitating a huge balloon envelope to get that >and the glider and occupants aloft. And perhaps the pile was >leaking after the crash; it was constructed, afterall, to leak >it's radiation on the crew . Any indications from the original >Roswell scenario that anyone was injured by radiation? >How did they lose it? Why would they risk losing something that >Nick's book posits was such a grizzly experiment as to be deemed >a national disgrace if ever it was found out. Thank you, Don, for one of the most reasonable and reasoned posts so far in this thread. I have to say, after reading Nick's book, that I think his intentions were good and he tried hard to pull things together, but he just didn't get the right pieces. It's like he has taken pieces from several different jigsaw puzzles and tried to force fit them together into one picture. But it just doesn't work, and the picture is badly flawed and distorted. I'm glad Nick wrote the book, because it has caused a lot of good people to focus hard on things which were being ignored. Ultimately all of this light being poured into darkness may let us see some vague shapes that we can assemble into a coherent whole. No, the Roswell case has not been solved by Nick, but his work may have pushed us a few steps closer to finally figuring it all
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 London Calling From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:50:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:17:32 -0400 Subject: London Calling I live and work in London, and travel on the subway every day. I am writing to record my gratitude to the numerous subscribers who contacted me off-list in the aftermath of 7/7. Your concern and support was most welcome at an extremely difficult time. London remains proud and defiant. The terrorists will never win.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 UFOs And Mutilations In La Arana Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:45:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:25:20 -0400 Subject: UFOs And Mutilations In La Arana Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology July 22, 2005 Source: Planeta UFO Date: July 21, 2005 La Arana: When Time Stood Still by Luis Burgos (FAO) While the return of a considerable part of the "unidentifieds" to the scene of the crime (the basis of my Decimal Hypothesis) is a constant that is disputed by very few, field researchers are clearly aware of the window areas (relatively short intervals of non-recurrent sites) versus "hot zones" (fixed periods of recurrence). Perhaps in-depth area surveys would enable us to weave a hypothesis as to the "why" of the matter. This is the case with La Arana and other places of La Pampa province, one of the most visited ones by UFOs. La Arana is a rural location some 50 km west of Santa Rosa, capital of La Pampa. It can be reached along Route 14 passing through the town of Toay. At present, the ghostly aspect of this location hovers in the air like the aged reminiscence of a past with a legend: an abandoned schoolhouse, a lonely house in the vicinity and a ruined building that housed an ancient "lawn bowling" facility, famous for its dance parties in the 1950's and 1960s, are mute testimony to unusual UFO events that commenced in the early '60s and continue to our times. It is as if something magical enveloped this enigmatic landscape, cited in books on the subject, newspapers of the time and spread from mouth to mouth by local residents aware of the prowling of the "bad lights". Today, Quique Mario of the CEUFO organization chose it as his favorite site for holding UFO skywatches. Raul Chaves and Ester Urban of CIUFOS also have the suspicious area under surveillance. It could not have been otherwise: this location and other points of la pampa and six other provinces were affected by the "great Argentinean UFO wave" and in the early hours of May 13, 1962, reflected by Hector P. Anganuzzi in his book "Historia de los Platos Voladores en Argentina" in which he retells the experiences of the partygoers who attended one of the dances at La Arana. After 0400 hours, they noticed a large light on the ground at relatively near distance. Some of the locals approached the source of light and at that precise moment, an object started rising into the air while a number of similar objects - not seen previously - accompanied it. As they receded, the appeared to spin on their own axises. The "La Prensa" newspaper also echoed this encounter in its May 16 edition. In the 1970's other dance-goers saw a UFO that was readying itself to land only a few meters away. It tore though a barbed wire fence as it landed, followed by a series of shudders ("like a chicken dusting itself off") before taking off again before the confused gaze of the lucky eyewitnesses. This episode forms part of the 50 most incredible cases of the Argentinean national UFO case histories. One night in 1979, a hunter was startled by a flying object that "fell on him", leaving him no choice but to open fire against it. The bullet hit its mark, since he heard the projectile strike the unusual "prey". At that time the UFO turned off its lights and he didn't see it again... nor did he find the bullet. In the late 1980's, a motorist heading down Route 5 at night reached La Arana to be treated to the sight of a very bright, large UFO on the side of the road... a UFO with the strange shape of a fish. At around 1500 hours on a hot afternoon in January 1990, Jose Luis Lopez and his assistant were engaged in farmwork when another worker warned them of the sudden appearance of a "giant' oval object, dark brown in color, that passed over them at low altitude on a southward trajectory. The artifact, which made a slight whistling sound, was practically ignored by the local animals. The observation lasted some 10 minutes and according to one of the witnesses, "it seemed as if time stood still... " On Thursday, December 15, 1994, Mr. Nestor Fernandez and a companion were traveling from Cerro Quemado to Santa Rosa. As they crossed La Arana, they noticed a brilliant UFO that startled them to the point of reporting their experience to reporters from the "La Arena" newspaper. The field visit by CEUFO researchers with the goal of the "First UFO Alert" proposed by Project Condor could not have been better rewarded: From the afternoon of May 8, 1999 to the morning of the 9th, they installed themselves at the site taking numerous photos of the local geography: road, fields, sky, etc. In one of these pictures, a white-colored luminous body surrounded by a red halo appeared at random, turning it into one of the very few nocturnal photos of a "ghost UFO". In 2002, while the mutilations were in full swing, La Arana did not escape these incidents, which continue in this inhospitable area to this very day. To keep enumerating cases would be repetitive. The UFO phenomenon prefers this area as one of its targets and without a doubt, to be there is to breathe in a little of the Pampean saucer history and therefore, Argentina's own history. Without a doubt, something is moving, gliding, intruding, appearing and disappearing there, becoming invisible in the desolate Pampean landscape. The question is obvious: What was there, or what will be there? The question remains unanswered.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:30:50 -0400 Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is based on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower testimony of Sgt Clifford Stone. Michael Salla ****** Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* On July 20, 2005 I completed a phone interview with Sgt Clifford Stone (ret) who discussed at length his involvement in UFO crash retrieval teams during his 22 year military service from 1968- 1990. Sgt Stone served in the U.S. Army and claims he was covertly recruited into an elite UFO retrieval team due to his natural ability to interface with extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs). He claims that he was picked out during his childhood by the U.S. military and had an Air Force Captain regularly visit him on a weekly basis who encouraged Sgt Stone in pursuing his interest in UFOs, and eventually influenced his decision to join the military. Upon joining the military Sgt Stone found himself starting a very untypical military career. Sgt Stone says he was initially given training at a Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare facility at Fort Lee, VA., and then given regular army assignments until called away to perform his crash retrieval duties when required. Sgt Stone claims that when required for UFO retrievals he was typically called out to serve for a week. He says that his army service record was distorted to exclude references to his actual training and assignments, and refers to him only performing clerical duties as a typist. Like many whistleblowers, there is controversy over inconsistencies between his testimony and lack of documentary evidence to verify his alleged training and actual service. The strongest objective support for his claims of having worked in covert UFO retrieval projects is the extensive documentation he has provided to support the existence of covert UFO crash retrieval teams. He was able to use very specific Freedom of Information Acts requests to uncover information disclosing the existence of classified projects such as Moon Dust and Blue Fly that were created to recover debris of UFOs. For example, in reviewing a Air Force Intelligence letter known as the Betz memo (1961), Sgt Stone was able to reveal to the general public evidence that Project Moon Dust involved a: �potential for employment of qualified field intelligence personnel on a quick reaction basis to recover or perform field exploitation of unidentified flying objects (http://freedomofinfo.org/foi/Background_MD_BF2.pdf Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm In the preface to Stone's book, UFOs are Real (1997), another critic, Stanton Friedman, acknowledges Stone's efforts in bringing into the public arena many documents never before published. The fact that Sgt Stone was able to ferret out the existence of such classified projects despite previous denial of their existence by various military and government authorities, supports his testimony that he had first hand knowledge of these classified projects. Furthermore, these documents support his testimony that he had tried to make available for the public record sufficient information so he would not be punished for revealing the classified information he had personally acquired during his service on these projects. As many have pointed out, the disclosure of classified information involves severe penalties, especially for whistleblowers for the UFO phenomenon that appear to run the most risk of adverse penalties in disclosing such information. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-32.htm ). Sgt Stone catalogued in UFOs are Real numerous documents he had been able to retrieve by FOIA even during his years of military service. Consequently, Stone's pioneering documentary research into UFO crash retrievals is strong support for his testimony of actually having served on such teams during his military service. Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the �EBE Guidebook� in 1979 and claims that it contained much information on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food requirements and medical information. He claims he could read the Guidebook when he was serving on the retrieval teams up until 1989. Sgt Stone says that the Guidebook was to be used in case First Aid had to be administered to any EBEs found at crash sites. In the interview, he gave the example of Iodine which can be administered for first aid purposes, but can be deadly for some EBEs. As a whistleblower, there continues to be intense debate over Sgt Stone's testimony and the veracity of his claims. Some of these debates have occurred with critics such as Capt Kevin Randle who has also personally interviewed Sgt Stone and did not believe him to be credible. See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m14-014.shtml Capt Randle's main criticism is that Stone's military record only refers to him being trained as a clerk typist. Capt Randle doesn't accept Stone's argument that the clerical training on his military record was only a cover for his specialized training in specialized units such as the Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Warfare training facility. If Stone was only ever a typist, as Capt Randle suggests, then it would be hard to explain how a clerk typist would have knowledge of classified projects such as Moon Dust and Bluefly that prior to Stone's successful FOIA requests, were officially denied to exist. Stone's successful FOIA requests of documents describing classified projects, gives credence to his claims that he had first hand knowledge of these classified projects, and was very likely involved with Projects Moon Dust and Bluefly as a crash retrieval specialist. In my interview Sgt Stone comes across as very meticulous in his statements, very clear about the information he is revealing, and refuses to speculate on subjects he did not directly experience. The information he provided in the interview was very consistent with earlier interviews conducted by other investigators such as Paola Harris one of which is available online at: http://www.swa-home.de/clifford.htm Furthermore, Sgt Stone had no desire to gain financial profit for his evidence or appeared in any way to be a publicity seeker. He came across as an individual of great integrity desiring to let the American public learn the truth about UFOs and the ETH. My overall conclusion is that Stone is very credible due to the meticulous nature of his testimony, the consistency in his story, his obvious integrity, and because of the documents he has been able to provide demonstrating the existence of elite UFO crash retrieval teams under the classified Moon Dust and BlueFly projects. In terms of a range of 'soft' and 'hard' criteria to analyze the veracity of whistleblower testimony, Sgt Stone ranks very highly both because of his personal integrity and the documents he was able to provide in support of his testimony. The documentary evidence Stone provided of classified projects he allegedly served on, also supports perhaps the most controversial aspect of his testimony that his own military records were altered so as to not reflect his actual training and duties. The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs. This suggests extensive knowledge was likely gained through a number of sources: UFO crash retrievals; EBE visitations; and/or cooperation with some EBEs who were aware of other EBEs visiting the Earth. The compilation of such a guidebook suggests a very well coordinated and funded research program exists in the classified projects involving EBEs and ETVs. Such a detailed study gives support to the existence of an Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit that was allegedly created in 1942 to study the UFO phenomenon. The Majestic Documents website includes references and reports by such a unit on EBEs and UFOs which are available at: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/pre1948.php . The implications of the existence of an 'EBE Guidebook' is startling since it suggests that the covert government agencies and military departments dealing with UFOs have long since resolved the truth of the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH). The ETH has been demonstrated to be very real, and covert military departments and government agencies have progressed far in cataloguing and analyzing different EBEs. It is also likely that such agencies have developed a very sophisticated analysis of the motivations and activities of EBEs that go far beyond any analysis available in the public arena. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Report-ET-Motivations.htm In terms of a coordinated national security response by the U.S. authorities, it is very likely that a very detailed strategic analysis of many EBE groups in terms of their motivations, technologies and strategic capacities has already been conducted. The strategic response is likely to be based on a multiple actor analysis of geo-politics and the involvement of different EBE groups with multiple agendas and capacities. This geo-political analysis is therefore very likely to lead to a 'balance of power' analysis of the multiple EBE groups and how various nation states may achieve their strategic goals in response to visiting EBE groups. My own earlier analysis of a hypothetical power politics approach to dealing with EBEs and the ETH is therefore more likely have merit due to the extensive number of EBE groups known to be interacting with humanity - see: http://exopolitics.org/Study-Paper-7.htm ). My own conclusion as an exopolitical researcher is that we have only scratched the surface of what is known by government agencies and military departments about EBEs, their motivations and associated technologies. This suggests that if exopolitical researchers are to influence government policy in how information on EBE groups and ETH is to be disseminated into the public arena, that there needs to be more appreciation of the extensive knowledge gained over five decades of covert research on EBEs and the government response. This knowledge has been used to develop a strategic response to the multiple EBE groups visiting Earth which implies disclosure of the truth of the ETH would somehow damage the strategic goals of military departments and government agencies responsible for a coordinated national security response. It is therefore up to exopolitical researchers to come up with a persuasive strategic reason for why disclosure not only benefits the public interest, but also appreciably strengthens the national interest of the U.S. and other major nations aware of the truth of the ETH. The full transcript of my July 20 interview with Sgt Stone is forthcoming in the inaugural edition of the Exopolitics Journal (see http://www.exopoliticsjournal.com ). * I wish to thank Paola Harris who kindly contacted Sgt Stone to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:02:43 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is based >on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower testimony of >Sgt Clifford Stone. >Michael Salla >****** >Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* >snip< >Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. Dr. Salla - Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty after a tour in Iraq (okay, Baghdad and points around it) and I still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not expect to do so until 2009.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:16:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is >>based on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower >>testimony of Sgt Clifford Stone. >>Michael Salla >>****** >>Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* ><snip> >>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. >Dr. Salla - >Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty >still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall >in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, >once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not >expect to do so until 2009. Hello Kevin:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:20:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:10:05 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:19:11 +0100 >>Subject: Re: >Plus I don't believe anyone in that area was launching foil >coated _neoprene_(Bessies rubber?) balloons, if in fact there >were any?. But certainly foil coated polyethelene film balloon >material _was_ used later, but in 1947 polyethelene balloon >material was new technology having only first been used for >balloons in Sept 1946 and people were still on a learning curve >with it.. The NYU/MOGUL guys out at AAAF only introduced them >into their later June/July 1947 flights and only converted to >them fully in the 1948 series of flights from AAAF. >Even though a lot of Listers won't agree with me, I do find it >very illuminating that it was in the critical period of July >1947 that this new material - polyethylene - was introduced. >And it's in this _exact_ time frame that we hear of new >materials found out in the desert, and found specifically by >people experienced with the old balloons, but _not_ >experienced with the new polyethylene ones (and >aluminum coated maybe, too). Nick, Count me as one Lister that doesn't agree. I can't think of a single Roswell debris description that even remotely resembles polyethylene. Just think plastic bags at the grocery store - same stuff. Polyethylene is easily cut and burns like crazy. Very thin polyethylene doesn't unfold itself. Thicker polyethylene creases. Polyethylene balloons when they came to earth didn't come down in hundreds of pieces scattered over many acres; they were just big gas bags that came down as a unit. That Mogul started using polyethylene in July 1947 is just a minor coincidence of no relevance, since nothing about the physical properties of polyethylene and described Roswell debris matches. Coating the polyethylene with aluminum is like putting lipstick on a pig; nothing about the above changes. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think they were even coating polyethylene with aluminum back in 1947. According to the C. B. Moore interview in the 1995 Roswell report, they played around with mylar as a balloon material a year or two later, but this too would be irrelevant. About the only Mogul balloon material that might remotely resemble some of the described debris was a fabric coated with rubber on one side and aluminized paint on the other. But this too wasn't used until later. And like all other earthly, thin balloon materials back then, could be easily cut with a knife, would burn, etc. Remember also that Marcel said the metallic, fabric-like material he examined couldn't be from a balloon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 23 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:33:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:58:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Reynolds >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory <snip> >I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a researcher, but >frankly I think he's been set up. Dr. Rudiak: Do you really think that a bunch of old, doddering guys are still able to, willing to, play the game of "disinformation"? Nick Redfern's contacts seem unlikely to be blokes who are anxious to put one over on a guy writing a book about 1947 happenings in New Mexico.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:26:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:30:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:19:44 -0700 >Subject: Re: Cyclist Reports Mysterious Hovering Objects Bending Wheat <snip> >We could reciprocate by creating our own designs. That might >elicit a response. Perhaps it already has; the numerous hoaxed >designs may have been interpreted by our neighbors as such a >response. I forget the specifics, but I did see a crop glyph documentary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 The Sign Oral History Program From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:38:1 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:35:08 -0400 Subject: The Sign Oral History Program The Sign Historical Group is pleased to announce significant new and updated material for UFO history researchers. The Sign Oral History Project (SOHP) The Sign Oral History Project began in 1999 to record recollections of UFO witnesses, investigators officials, scientists, and other individuals associated with UFO history. SOHP records interviews with a cross section of individuals involved with UFOs on archives quality video media. http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/index.html Tom Tulien founder of SOHP with the assistance of a number of UFO historians has conducted well over 100 interviews. A partial list of interviewees is here: http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/sohplist.html and includes witnesses from a number of important UFO cases, former Project Blue Book officials, UFO investigators and aviation and ballooning experts. Over the past five years, SOHP teams have traveled thousands of miles interviewing subjects in most states in this country. SOHP interviewed visiting foreigners and made a special trip to Brazil to interview UFO witnesses and researchers there. SOHP has a long list of potential interviewee, but we would also welcome leads and assistance in obtaining other important interviews. Some oral histories from this project have been deposited at public institutions. We have posted the transcripts of a few of the SOHP interviews at: http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/sohpcoll.html For the Colonel Doyle Rees, USAF (Retired) interview a large number of supporting documents and important links support the subject matter covered. Col. Rees was commander of 17th Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) District during the years when the Green Fire Ball (GFB) burst upon the scene. http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/reesintro.html We are pleased to have a collection of interesting support documents and research for this interview including: The unpublished history "The Genesis Of AFOSI" by Major Kurt K. Kunze, former AFOSI Historian, obtained by Robert Todd from the OSI history office. http://www.project1947.com/fig/afosi.htm 17th OSI District Letter, 12 May 1949, Subject: UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena) http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/reesosi1.htm Certain document by or related to Dr. Lincoln LaPaz who assisted Col. Rees in his investigations: http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/lpdr.html http://www.project1947.com/shg/articles/lobolapaz.html and a letter from Dr. Joseph Kaplan, who was called in by General Cabell to help in the GFB investigations: http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/kaplan1.htm The Conference on Aerial Phenomena held at Los Alamos 16 Feb 1949: http://www.project1947.com/gfb/cap21649.html The Project Twinkle Final Report http://www.project1947.com/gfb/twinklereport.htm The Air Force Scientific Advisory Board Meeting of 3 November 1949 http://www.project1947.com/gfb/sab11349.html A newspaper articles including the Los Alamos newspaper and another item about officers of Air-Land, Inc. who earlier ran Project Twinkle for the Air Force http://www.project1947.com/gfb/skyliner.htm Other important links are also included. Joel Carpenter's UFX articles on Green Fire Balls are linked to the interview's introduction We also are proud to host Joel's "Green Fireballs over Los Alamos" http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/reesintro.html#twinkle and his well researched Green Fireball Chronology http://www.project1947.com/shg/sohp/reesintro.html#twinkle which give further insight into the history of the most interesting phenomenon. Colonel C. H. Lonzo, wrote in his column, "Perimeters in Paragraphs" column in the October 1946 Field Artillery Journal about the Ghost Rockets over Scandinavia. Dr. LaPaz quoted from Lonzo's article in 1951 in connection with the Green Fire Ball reports in the Southwestern US. http://www.project1947.com/articles/lonzogr.htm A special thanks to Joel for the special essays too long absent from the Internet. I also want to recognize John Stepkowski, Project 1947's tireless Webmaster whose efforts bring this most useful and interesting material to readers of the Sign Historical Group and Project 1947 web pages. Candy Peterson and Gary Mangacorpra transcribed the current interviews. More will follow. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:00:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:36:21 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >He says that his army service record was distorted to exclude >references to his actual training and assignments, and refers to >him only performing clerical duties as a typist. Like many >whistleblowers, there is controversy over inconsistencies >between his testimony and lack of documentary evidence to verify >his alleged training and actual service. Based on my group's and my own experiences as targets of brutal electronic torture and endless in-community harassment by people who think they are serving God and country, I'd like to offer our experiences in support of the possibility that distortion of service records as Sgt Stone claims is _well_ within _proven_ government practice. "We" are a couple of thousand _known_ targets of vigilante stalking and electronic harassment. Every level of government denies not only that this is happening, they even deny that technology exists which has been in the public domain for as long as half a century. Approach any police officer and report you are being stalked by more than one person, or that you are getting mind/body effects from advanced electronic equipment, and unless you can provide videotape of the perpetrators in action, you are told to "see a good psychiatrist" and maybe even hauled off to hospital in handcuffs. It almost happened to me in 1998. This in spite of COINTELPRO's extensive record of stalking, harassment, and life-destroying crimes (including murder) by FBI agents, and MKULTRA's torture of children and adults for mind control purposes, including electronic mind control. Or the Tuskegee experiment in which some syphilis patients among poor black men, _and_ some poor black men who were _injected_ with syphilis deliberately, then _not_ treated but merely observed for decades, up through the 1970s. Or the hundreds of people, some retarded children, who were fed radioactive material for "national security" reasons. When any of these groups complain, they are told they are crazy. Their members _continue_ to be harassed just as my group is. When you stand _our_ experiences next to Clifford Stone's claim that his service record was tampered with, and his real assignments covered up, you begin to see (if you are honest and open minded) that what Sgt Stone claims is not only possible, but likely. I understand that doesn't "prove" Sgt Stone's claims, but without a great deal more information, I would not label him as "discredited" based on his published service record alone. This is why I suggested that a _public_ (at least public on this list) roster of "discredited" witnesses be made up with the reasons why each is deemed "discredited." That would be a step towards arriving at the truth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:11:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:38:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:54:43 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >And the reason why there was so much secrecy in the recovery of >the balloon array (which wouldn't have been necessary if the >aircraft had detached correctly) was because part of the outer >coating of the aircraft was ripped away when the two components >did separate, and that coating came down on the Foster Ranch, as >did one body. >Therefore, if in a worst case scenario someone found the balloon >debris (as Brazel did), then the military realized that there >was a chance of finding this other material (the coating and the >remaining body), hence the stringent security at the ranch. >If Brazel had just found balloon debris, there would be no storm >because there was nothing controversial about the balloons. But >the unfortunate fact that Brzael stumbled upon the other things >too, is what led to the clampdown at the ranch. Nick, this actually seriously undercuts your entire theory if you think about it, particularly the missing body part, which would be very high-priority in recovering. If this had actually happened and was so super-supersensitive, there would have been an immediate and extensive search for the missing balloons/craft and body. The debris field would have been found in no time. As I pointed out in another post, the Foster Ranch crash site is out in the open with nothing to obscure it and would be easily spotted from the air. But what happened instead? At least a day elapsed between when Brazel found the debris field and reported it in Roswell. Then Marcel and Cavitt accompanied Brazel back to the ranch and spent the second day there examining the crash site and collecting debris. So basically at least 2 days elapsed and still no search parties from Project X looking for the missing body/craft turning up at the Foster Ranch. These would have been pretty damn incompetent search parties if they couldn't find a large debris field in such a wide-open area. Also what happened to their tracking of the object, which necessarily would have been part of the experiment? At least one plane would have been in the air following the contraption from the gitgo, and there should have been other tracking in place, such as on Project Mogul, where they followed the balloons optically and with either radio or radar tracking. Even with a separation of the glider from the balloons and even if they couldn't, for some reason, follow either or both to their final crash sites, they should have had a pretty good idea of where both were heading and would end up, again suggesting quick location and recovery. But the debris and body at the Foster Ranch just sat there for at least two days with no recovery teams in sight. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Further, according to your scenario, the vast bulk of the debris field would have been from the missing balloons. Do we agree on that? That being the case, where are the descriptions of obvious balloon material? Marcel and others like Rickett indicated that the debris was mostly small metal pieces with very anomalous properties, not balloon material. Marcel said that one type of metallic fabric he found that he briefly considered might be balloon material couldn't have been because it was porous. Balloons of any stripe when they descend don't shatter into hundreds or thousands of pieces when they impact. Had balloons impacted at the Brazel debris field, they would have been large and mostly intact. They wouldn't form a very large, long, linear debris field as described by Marcel and Brazel Jr. Marcel indicated that the shape and size of the debris field plus the large quantity of small metal debris suggested to him a metallic craft that had come apart at high speed. Again, that is totally incompatible with any balloon theory. These are all serious problems with your theory and I haven't seen them addressed directly. >>The nuclear pile? What happened to that. >How many times can I say this? As I explain in the book, there >is _no_ "nuclear pile" and _no_ nuclear angle of any sort to the >crash at Roswell. >That does not appear _anywhere_ at all in my book. You are >confusing this with other experiments cited in the book that >occurred in New Mexico in mid-1947 that were nuclear related. >The Roswell event - according to the interviewees -involved >nothing beyond a huge balloon array, a glider, and a trained >crew to fly it. A glider - no nuclear component to a >straightforward glider. I was under the same mistaken impression that your theory involved a nuclear component in the Roswell incident. Remove that, and your theory is now identical in practically every detail to the one presented by Jim Wilson in the July 1997 Popular Mechanics article. Again see, http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/1282456.html?page=1&c=y I consider the theory bizarre at best, and that two people would independently come up with it highly unlikely. When I emailed Wilson in 1997, he denied involvement of the Air Force in his theory, but I didn't ask him if somebody else may have suggested
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Different Visitors? From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:31 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:43:33 -0400 Subject: Different Visitors? Hello List, How come some UFO sightings really spook animals/livestock while others apparently don't? See latest from Scott Corrales at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m23-014.shtml for one sort and maybe check "tanan.txt" in Google for a very different sort. Are we being visited by entirely different types of folks - some scarey some not? Nb - used word `scarey' but at back of _my_ mind is propulsion methods used by `craft' - Earth animals generally have much wider range of sense-abilities than we humans do, and types of radiation (or `exhaust') from say a particular type of inertialess drive or magnetic-field lift could set-off their alarm bells. (Like `earthquake triggers' do?) Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:51:02 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is based >>on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower testimony of >>Sgt Clifford Stone. >>Michael Salla >>****** >>Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* ><snip> >>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. >Dr. Salla - >Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty >after a tour in Iraq (okay, Baghdad and points around it) and I >still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall >in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, >once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not >expect to do so until 2009. Aloha Capt Randle, thank you for clarifying your current military status, and apologies for not following earlier discussions where you described your current status. Perhaps I can be forgiven for taking literally what was said on the inside back cover of your book, Project Moon Dust (1998): "A retired Captain in the U.S. Air Force." I would suggest in future you get your publisher to more accurately describe your military status in any biographical statements to prevent future misunderstandings. Since I have your attention, I would appreciate you clarifying some of your comments made in the case of Clifford Stone in some earlier correspondence between us. You for example said in an earlier post : "Stone claims that he had "never been trained as a clerk typist," yet his service record shows that about his only training in the Army (other than basic training) was as a clerk typist. He attended school at the USATC for eight weeks and was awarded the military occupation speciality (MOS) of "Clktypist 71B in 1968. He took an advanced NCO school for five weeks in 1982 and a one week school labeled as "headstart" in 1989. So, in other words, about the only training he did have was as a typist. His assignments, throughout his military career have one thing in common. They are all labeled as clerk or admin. None of the strange assignments he claimed and no holes in his record for such assignments. Oh, yes, his records were altered. I forgot." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m14-014.shtml You are clearly dismissing Stone's claims of having served on UFO Crash Retrieval teams such as Project Moon Dust. The implication is that Stone never did any of the training he claimed, nor served on any of the Crash retrieval assignments he claimed. The conclusion therefore is that Stone is embellishing what appears to have been a rather pedestrian military career. And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. However, you fail to mention in your response some of your earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book (available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm :( "When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of Legislative Liaison, wrote, "There is no agency, nor has there ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with UFO's or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. Those missions have never existed." What the documentation, now available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that Madison's letter to a United States Senator is, at best, inaccurate." (p. 151). So Stone's "pioneering work" was able to show how Lt Col Madison was covering up the existence of these classified projects designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust through his FOIA requests: "He [Stone] pointed out that documents originally classified as secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also established as fact the location of the parent unit being at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. " (152) Later in your book you say: "Is it necessary here to suggest that the Air Force had been caught in a lie (or misinformation) to Senator Bingaman because the documents were available to positively refute them? (p. 152). You conclude chapter 8 in your book by saying: "Moon Dust became the real investigation of UFOs, the secret study that all of us claimed existed and that the Air Force denied. It was carried out by specially trained intelligence personnel. And, its existence was denied by the Air Force despite the facts. Now we have all the data." (161) It's worth emphasizing that we now have "all the data" due to Stone's pioneering work and ability to find the truth despite official Air Force initial denials of the existences of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. What your own chapter demonstrates is that Stone was a pivotal figure in getting information about these highly classified projects into the public arena. He achieved this through persistent FOIA requests despite official denials, and was successful in contrast to the efforts of numerous veteran UFO researchers who have researched the Roswell crash but have been unable to find documentary evidence of the existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. On the one hand you imply that Stone is either deluded or a publicity seeking fraud in describing himself as active in the UFO crash retrieval projects. Yet your own book, and Stone's successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist positions, how would he have learned about the existence of these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their existence into the public arena? I would suggest that we have two possibilities here. One, Stone is a deluded and/or publicity seeking UFO researcher who somehow got lucky in uncovering official documentation proving the existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service in classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. The implication is rather startling for those still debating whether UFO's are real, Stone did serve on UFO crash retrieval teams under Project Moon Dust, and his military records were altered to hide the actual training he performed and his military assignments. This of course leads to my own observations regarding the information Stone was told by his handler, a 'Colonel', who had the EBE guidebook describing 57 EBE groups that might be encountered at any UFO crash retrieval location.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:55:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:54:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >Most of the debris from an alleged Fugo balloon crash, even in >combination with a Horten flying wing made of metal, would >_not_ be metallic. Fugo balloons were made of rice paper, not >metal. David I noted that you said that you hadn't read the book, so the following is the data that you have missed. I _never_ claim _anywhere_ in the book that the device that came down was a Fugo balloon. What I said that was the Japanese teams involved in constructing the Fugo balloons were planning to build far bigger and more advanced balloons than the Fugos. This is a matter of record. It is also a matter of record that this included huge balloons with pressurized gondolas attached to them that would be flown by a "death defying Japanese" crew. So, it wasn't a Fugo balloon. But it _was_ constructed by the people involved in the 1944-1945 Fugo attacks, and this was one of their post-Fugo projects - not a Fugo device. The difference may be subtle but is critical. >Even ignoring all of the above, there is no explanation as >to >why there was no recovery operation until Brazel came >to town to >report the crash. Supposedly this was a supersecret, >supersensitive project with all sorts of dire >repercussions if >it was found out and yet nobody bothers to track it or >search >for it when it goes down? How believable is that? It's >not even >a case of this being dense jungle or snow covered >mountains >where a craft could go down and disappear from view. >The Brazel >place is wide out in the open, basically a vast plain with >very >little vegetation. A crash would have been _quickly_ >found if >anybody was out looking. Therefore, obviously nobody >was looking >because there was nothing lost to look for. But the point is that the aircraft _was_ quickly found. You won't know this because you haven't read the book, David, but the flight was a late afternoon flight. And - as I show on page 113, according to the interviewees, by the following morning, at the latest, the crash site of the glider _was_ fully secured and then there was a general clean-up and containment of the site. And nothing from the crash site of the glider leaked out to the public or the media. The whole point was to secure the crash site of the aircraft and crew first, because that was what has to be hidden - primarily. So that is why there was a concentration on securing that site. According to the interviewees, the recovery of the balloons was actually seen as secondary and not of extreme importance (time- wise) because if anyone found the balloons, all they would know was that it was a big balloon array - they would have no idea that it had been used in a classified project. That was the same with Mogul - if someone found the balloons, they would have no idea that the balloons were used in a classified project. However, what happened was that when the crash site of the aircraft was secured (remember, no later than the following morning), it quickly became apparent that part of the outer coating of the aircraft was missing (having been ripped open when the aircraft and balloon array became detached), along with one body that had apparently been sucked out when the top of the aircraft was ripped open. So, what would have been a routine attempt to recover the balloon debris at a later date now became something else - a major priority, because there was a fear - correctly as it transpired - that if someone found the balloon array, there was a chance that the missing materials and body might be found in approximately the same location too. So then the chase was on to find the debris from the balloons. And, as I was told, it was just bad luck that it was missed. And it was even worse luck that a civilian - Brazel - found it, as well as the remaining body. So in summary, (a) the aircraft site was fully secured no later than the following morning; (b) quick recovery of the balloon system wasn't seen as a priority because it was just balloon materials; but then (c) it was the fact that parts of the material was missing at site 1 that then led to an all-out search for the balloons. But because they initially delayed in looking for the balloons (presuming - erroneously - that none of the other materials came down with it), Brazel got to it first. >I find it a remarkable "coincidence" that Nick Redfern's >theory is almost identical to the one proposed by Jim >Wilson in >the July 1997 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine. >Wilson also >proposed a Fugo balloon lifting a Horten flying wing >manned by a >Japanese crew brought over in the Japanese equivalent >of >Operation Paperclip. About the only differences are >Wilson >proposed the crew being regular pilots or engineers >instead of >human radiation guinea pigs and didn't mention anything >about >nuclear reactors. First, I include the Popular Mechanics story in the book. Second, I point out on page 131, that there is _no way_ that it can be coincidence that PM got the same story as I did. Third, as I keep saying - but no-one seems to listen - there were _no_deformed Japanese people in the Roswell crash and _no_ atomic aircraft. As I have stressed and tried to explain again and again, the tests using deformed/handicapped people and the nuclear aircraft tests occurred in New Mexico from May to August 1947 and have been - to a degree - become incorporated into the Roswell lore and legend. But all that crashed that _specifically_ led to the Roswell story was a glider, a large balloon array and a crew of trained, Japanese pilots (nothing handicapped about them at all and no nuclear angle at all) brought to the US as POWs and given one of those offers that you cannot refuse - continue working for us on this project or face prosecution as war criminals. >I assumed then that Wilson had dreamt the whole thing >up on his >own to capitalize on the 50th anniversary of Roswell. >But now >Nick Redfern is putting out basically the same theory, >with an >anonymous Lt. Colonel as a primary source. There is >simply too >much in common between the Wilson and Redfern >stories for this >to be coincidence. This raises a number of possibilities, >among >them being: >1. Wilson originally dreamt it up, but others copycatted >the >theory and then presented it to Redfern as fact. 2. Both >Wilson >and Redfern were approached by the same sources, >who fed them >the story, true or not. >I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a >researcher, but >frankly I think he's been set up. David, the Colonel is not strictly an anonymous source. As I have mentioned on the List before (and I accept that with you being away you wouldn't have seen this) that certain name changes were not made by me. They were made by the Legal Department at Simon & Schuster. So, yes they are anonymous or obfuscated in the book - but on file with S&S. Your point about disinformation is a good one and one that a number of people have (off-list) suggested to me. However, there are several reasons why this disinfo theory is problematic. First, you talk about Bennewitz, and for people on List who have read Greg Bishop's Project Beta, they will be aware of the massive amount of disinfo involved in that case. The same could apply to Bill Moore - feed him MJ12 style documents to keep him busy because he was on the track of whatever happened at Roswell. But the important thing is this: Bennewitz was disinformed because he was already in hot pursuit of what he believed to be UFO related data at Kirtland Air Force Base. Moore was in hot pursuit of Roswell. But - here's the important point - at the time I was given these stories I was not in hot pursuit of anything even remotely connected to Roswell. So why would a disinfo team specifically target me? I could totally understand that someone might want to provide Roswell disinformation to Stan Friedman, or Kevin Randle, or any of the other leading Roswell researchers, for the prime reason that they were/are digging deep into the story. But like most people on list, when I was first given aspects of this story in 1996, my only exposure to Roswell was from reading the various books and magazine articles. That situation also applies when I conducted an interview with the second source in 2001. So a question: why flood someone with disinformation about Roswell, when that person (me) was not doing _any_ research into Roswell? Disinfo is generally put out there to confuse people who are already on the trail of something. Also, why would the Government need to introduce yet more disinfo? It already has the Mogul and Crash-Test Dummy explanations in place. To introduce another theory, would only make people even more suspicious So the official disinfo angle doesn't work. As for private disinformation - I cannot understand why 4 people in their 80s (one in very bad health, I might add) would provide me with prime evidence of their employment at the right place at the right time (work documents, tax records, photographs) and then all create this complex story. And who was to say that I would even be able to do anything with the story such as getting it published, if that was their motivation? Also, if you do get chance to see the book, you will note that the first interview in the US took place in summer 2001. Then there was a gap until late 2003 and into 2004 when I did the remaining interviews. The reason why there was this gap was because for this 18 month approx period, I could not convince them to consent to full interviews. And it was only after much persuasion that they relented. So if disinfo, why put off speaking to me for 18 months? Would they not want this story published as soon as possible if the plan was to put out a faked story? So, for the reason above, I don't think official - or private - disinformation works. And the reason why I was approached by the first US source actually had nothing to do with Roswell. What happened was that in 1998, I had a book published called "The FBI Files." That book included a chapter titled "The Oak Ridge Invasion" and that dealt with documents on file with the FBI on UFO encounters at Oak Ridge in the late 40s and early 50s. I gave a lecture at the LA Mufon group in summer 2001 and the interviewee had read the book, contacted me and I said to her that I was speaking at her home city of LA and we arranged to meet the day after the lecture. She had told me she had worked at Oak Ridge, had read the book and wanted to talk to me about UFOs and Oak Ridge. And I assumed - wrongly - as it turned out, that she wanted to discuss the data in my FBI book on Oak Ridge. Instead, she wanted to discuss the data that made up Chapter 1 of Body Snatchers - her knowledge of the Japanese angle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:04:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:56:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:33:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >>Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory ><snip> >>I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a researcher, but >>frankly I think he's been set up. >Dr. Rudiak: >Do you really think that a bunch of old, doddering guys are >still able to, willing to, play the game of "disinformation"? >Nick Redfern's contacts seem unlikely to be blokes who are >anxious to put one over on a guy writing a book about 1947 >happenings in New Mexico. Rich You're right: I have just replied to David's post on this so hopefully my answer to his post will answer yours too. I'm working on a report that will explain the info that is not in the book - how the sources surfaced, why they surfaced, how
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Nick Redfern Answers Tough Questions Tonight From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:59:43 -0400 Subject: Nick Redfern Answers Tough Questions Tonight Nick Redfern will be our guest tonight, the Sunday, July 24th edition of Radio Misterioso. He will of course be discussing his new book "Body Snatchers in the Desert," which all of you know about. Listen in for the in-depth questions missed in other interviews. Please email radiomisterioso.nul with questions. 7/24/05 8-10PM PST at killradio.org. Thank you, Greg Bishop _________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Hale From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:34:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:00:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Hale >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a researcher, but >frankly I think he's been set up. It certainly wouldn't be the >first time that researchers have been approached by "insiders," >who then fed them disinformation. List,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:59:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:02:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Rudiak >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:33:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >>Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory ><snip> >>I have a lot of respect for Nick Redfern as a researcher, but >>frankly I think he's been set up. >Dr. Rudiak: >Do you really think that a bunch of old, doddering guys are >still able to, willing to, play the game of "disinformation"? What does age have to do with it? Ever hear of Philip Corso, C. B. Moore, J. B. Johnson, or Frank Kaufmann? All were old guys who were caught either hoaxing, lying, altering data, changing stories, and/or telling tales of dubious veracity putting their own personal spin on the Roswell case, and thus confusing the issues even further. Whether some did so for personal reasons (what I call the "Last Hurrah" syndrome) or because someone within the government put them up to it I don't know, and neither does anybody else. But I suspect it wouldn't take much to pursuade some of these old military/government types to go along with some disinformation scheme, either out of a sense of patriotism perhaps greased with a little extra retirement money. Kaufmann, e.g., claimed (yes, I know, claimed) that he was a disinfo guy planted in Roswell in 1947 and being paid from the outside to keep an eye on things. Corso and Moore both got book deals, certainly a _possible_ way to launder payoff money for doing secret government service. (I'm NOT saying this definitely happened, only citing it as a possibility.) >Nick Redfern's contacts seem unlikely to be blokes who are >anxious to put one over on a guy writing a book about 1947 >happenings in New Mexico. Really? Even Redfern acknowledges the possibility in his book (which I just purchased). See, e.g., his Chapter 8, "The British Connection," and his source, a "Mr. Levine," an employee inside the British Home Office, whom Redfern says he spoke to in 1996. "Levine" claimed that he, and several others in the Home Office, were briefed on Roswell by the British Defence Intelligence Staff and the CIA. They were given documents and told Roswell was a real alien event, then shown an alien autopsy, which from the description sounded suspiciously like the Santilli alien autopsy making the rounds at the same time. To make a long story short, "Levine" stated they began to suspect the alien story and autopsy film was a cover for what really happened at Roswell, namely the Americans were playing around with biological weapons and Japanese prisoners. Redfern then discusses the reasons why he feels Levine's story cannot be dismissed lightly, including the disinformation being put out during the Paul Bennewitz affair in the early 1980s, but also adds the following caveat: "There is one final matter that cannot be denied--one that made me somewhat guarded and suspicioius of not just the combined Anglo-American operation, but also of the less-than-tight-lipped Mr. Levine himself. He was very vocal and precise about his involvement in the UFO subject and the bizarre set of circumstances that came to pass in 1989---circumstances that seem to have had a major bearing on the national security of the United Kingdom. Yet he had no qualms about his story appearing in print post-2000. Of course, the idea that British authorities would not have been able to discern his identity from reading these words is absurd. True whistle-blowers certainly do not spill the beans in such a cavalier fashion, as did the highly talkative Mr. Levine. I know that from experience. They subtly and discreetly point you in certain directions and let you join the dots. "Mr. Levine was neither subtle nor discreet. Plus, his distinctly conspiratorial tone and manner was pure theater and something straight out of a third-rate pulp thriller. I therefore suspect that whatever the truth of this strange affair, Mr. Levine was not the innocent he claimed to be. Rather, I am of the opinion that he was simply the latest (but surely not the last) player to emerge from the top-secret Anglo- American operation that had its origins in whatever it was that did or did not occur at Roswell, New Mexico..." Redfern then added that for this reason he didn't take Levine's story seriously until he heard similar stories from other sources later on. >Come on... So you are saying that Redfern is also an idiot for even
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:09:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frola >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:25:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:13:21 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War ><snip> >>UFO, UFOB, UAP, etc. are the semantic elements of Ufology. >>Therefore, no matter what acronym a person uses the bottom line >>fact remains as true today as it did in the beginning: >Hi, Wendy: >You're right, it doesn't matter what you call it as no term will >cover all the events, objects and concepts accurately. How do >you label something if you don't know what it is? >It's not the name we need to change but the way we perceive and >study UFOs. I think many on this list and around the world are >beginning to recognize a need for change. It's there just below >the surface and can no longer be denied. The new ufology. >What is the "new ufology"? Heck if I know. LOL It appears to be >something needed but not yet defined. It is what will take the >place of the "old ufology" (whatever THAT was?!!). Perhaps it is >more of a new and improved ufology rather than "out with the old >and in with the new". I think the new ufology is just the old >ufology becoming more refined and specific. The only real >changes will be the introduction of new thoughts, new techniques >and new perceptions. >Why do some feel this need for a 'new ufology'? Because people >are no longer content to just believe, they want _answers_. I, >like many others, are tired of hearing the same stories, the >same BS, going to the same conferences where the same people >tell us the same information they've been telling us for >decades. We must study the past but we must also chart new >courses for tomorrow. People are tired of the lies and the >deceptions. Even those who resist change long, deep inside, for >something more and know it is on the horizon. >Some progress has been made but not enough. We must acknowledge >and thank those who have contributed and continue to contribute >their time, resources and research to the study of UFOs. But it >is time to reach beyond the current state of ufology, beyond our >current awareness's and seek new paradigms, new insights into >the truth about UFOs. How? By first recognizing our desire for >more and acting accordingly. >By building on our current knowledge base, we can _expand_ >ufology to the next levels of investigation, research, >interpretation and analysis. While introducing physical methods >of detecting UFOs, we must also turn our "mental radars" inward >and scan our own perceptions for personal bias and >misconceptions. We must break down the language barriers and >promote ufology to an international forum where information will >be readily available to ALL in all languages. We must form >centralized, _permanent_ databases where information, available >in all languages, will contain previous and current research and >investigations as well as proposed theses. Above all, we need to >establish criteria for _objective_ research and journals to >disseminate information, the likes of which have never been seen >before. >The status quo just doesn't cut it anymore. >>An apparent manufactured object that does not equate to our own >>technological abilities, which are observed in the atmosphere or >>near/deep space, and always appears to be just beyond our own >>technologies and abilities to understand. Thus, such objects are >>no longer "magical" because we comprehend the basics of science >>and technology, but remain an elusive, reality based, phenomenon >>worthy of study. >>Worthy of study and research because it is obvious that >>technology more advanced than our own is in play. >I must disagree, Wendy, nothing is "obvious" when it comes to >UFOs. These objects may APPEAR to be just beyond our own >technological and mental abilities to understand but it is not >wise to assume they are. In fact, that is one of the main >misconceptions/assumptions that has kept ufology from moving >forward. Just because we don't know what it is does not mean it >isn't ours. I use to think the same way... until I saw something >that jolted me out of my preconceived realities. It wasn't until >I began asking "could it be man-made?" and researched this >possibility that I learned not to assume ANYTHING about >UFOs...or the world in which we live. ><snip> >>The quest to understand is what is paramount regardless of the >>final answer. The quest brings greater knowledge than the final >>answer. I will go to the grave not knowing the answer, but with >>no regrets, for the quest was ecstacy in itself and I got to >>experience it. >That's what it's all about, Wendy, the journey. And it >continues beyond the grave. You thought it was _that_ easy?! >Ha!<wink> >Amy Hi Amy, It is the media who have made a mockery of the term UFO. I have always remained objective when it comes to investigating UFOs (despite my personal beliefs), as the term UFO means Unidentified Flying Object. We all know that, but the media plays this term to the nth degree. It is through careful investigation, eliminating the possible, do we get the impossible. The rest is all conjecture and personal theories/beliefs. We live in exciting times, and even though it can be very frustrating and often unsatifying we are so ever moving towards solving this puzzling phenomena. All we need to do, collectively, is not to implode by bitching to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 24 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:52:20 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:11:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frola >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:34 -0700 >Subject: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 >>Subject: Peter Koury DNA case >I just finished reading Bill Chalker's article on this >intriguing case from Australia, regarding DNA tests done on a >strand of hair recovered by "abductee" Peter Koury following an >unusual enounter with two females. (Found here at Las Vegas >library in current issue of MUFON Journal.) >Followup mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA testing revealed >further interesting features! >Is this article going to be posted somewhere on the net soon? >(It would be great to share a link to this report.) >[See: >http://theozfiles.blogspot.com/ >--ebk] Mike, Bill's report on Peter Khoury's DNA case has been posted on his web page http://theozfiles.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 'UFO Hacker' Interviewd By BBC Radio From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:06:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:06:36 -0400 Subject: 'UFO Hacker' Interviewd By BBC Radio Source: BBC World Service - London http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/the_interview.shtml July 23 2005 The Interview This week 'The Interview' talks to the man described by US prosecutors as "the biggest military computer hack of all time". Briton Gary McKinnon stands accused of breaking and entering into US secret computer systems, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage, and effectively immobilising the military district of Washington DC for three days in 2002. He faces charges in the US which could lead to up to 70 years in jail. Speaking in his first broadcast interview just days before his extradition hearing, McKinnon considers his own sense of na=EFve wrong-doing, but also denies causing damage and says he was acting out of "humanitarian" motives. Listen via RealPlayer:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:08:17 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military >service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was >never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present >at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions >of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to >read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained >information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities >(EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the "EBE >Guidebook" in 1979 and claims that it contained much information >on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food >requirements and medical information. >The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the >information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This >has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now >elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the >physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:10:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Shell >From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:52:20 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case On Sunday, July 24, 2005, at 09:11 AM, Robert Frola <ufologist.nul>wrote: >Mike, >Bill's report on Peter Khoury's DNA case has been posted on his >web page >http://theozfiles.blogspot.com >http://www.theozfiles.com Actually there is no report there, just a teaser to buy the book. I've been peripherally involved several times in attempted hair analysis related to samples purported to be bigfoot hair. Most people don't know it, but you can't get usable DNA for analysis from hair. Unless the hair has been yanked out by the roots and still has follicles attached, there is no DNA present. And the DNA in the follicles tends to decay with time. I know nothing at all about this Australian case, so it would be useful if someone would post some actual information here rather than just attempting to sell us a book. Was the hair supposed to have been forcefully pulled from these "females"? Did it have intact hair follicles? Or was it simply strands of blonde hair? If the latter is the case, electron microscope analysis would be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:58:49 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:14:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:52:20 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:34 -0700 >>Subject: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 >>>Subject: Peter Koury DNA case >>I just finished reading Bill Chalker's article on this >>intriguing case from Australia, regarding DNA tests done on a >>strand of hair recovered by "abductee" Peter Koury following an >>unusual enounter with two females. (Found here at Las Vegas >>library in current issue of MUFON Journal.) >>Followup mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA testing revealed >>further interesting features! >>Is this article going to be posted somewhere on the net soon? >>(It would be great to share a link to this report.) >>[See: >>http://theozfiles.blogspot.com/ >>--ebk] >Mike, >Bill's report on Peter Khoury's DNA case has been posted on his >web page >http://theozfiles.blogspot.com >http://www.theozfiles.com The article Mike Jamieson is referring to is quite different to the summary report on Peter Khoury's case that appears on my web site: http://www.theozfiles.com/anomaly_investigation_group.html The MUFON UFO Journal piece, in the July 2005 issue is entitled "DNA evidence and the future of ufology". I recommend List readers take a look at it. Also in the International UFO Reporter (Volume 29, No.3) I have an article "ALIENS, HAIR, and DNA." The current Australasian Ufologist also carries my article, "HAIR of the ALIEN - the DNA Paradigm". Each introduces my new book "HAIR of the ALIEN - DNA and other forensic evidence of alien abduction" in different ways. The book has now been released in the US and I expect it will turn up in coming months in Australia and the UK. It can be purchased through Amazon.com. An extract from the first chapter appears on the Simon & Schuster web site: http://www.simonsays.com/content/content.cfm?sid=33&pid=508717&agid=2 along with the table of contents: http://www.simonsays.com/content/content.cfm?sid=33&pid=508717&agid=3 Of course I encourage all List readers to seek out the book and have a good read. The book is more than the Peter Khoury DNA case. Introduction: I introduce the "alien DNA paradigm". "Hair of the alien? This is no bizarre variant of a "hangover cure" for UFO obssessions. But it may provide a "cure" for the lack of physical evidence that has plagued alien abduction research for the past four decades. What we are dealing with here is a fundamental refocusing of our perceptions of alien reality." ("Hair of the Alien", page 2) Chapter One Shattered World: This chapter focuses on Peter Khoury and his experiences prior to the ground breaking encounter in 1992 which yielded the hair sample which became the focus of a very intriguing DNA study. "(Peter Khoury) is not the stereotypical alien abductee whose life has been strangled into a fragile form of alien marginalia. Indeed he seems the last sort of person whom one would expect to be coming out with such tales. But Peter has been searching like everyone else who has been affected by such experiences." ("Hair of the Alien", pgs. 10- 11.) Chapter Two Hair of the Alien: describes the encounter Peter Khoury had in 1992. Chapter Three Seeking Help: describes Peter Khoury's attempt to come to terms with his bizarre alien milieu." This very strange episode seemed to have a solid foundation." (Hair of the Alien", page 47) Chapter Four Alien Impact: describes the Kelly Cahill case of 1992. "The difficulties and frustrations in gaining full disclosure to the research conducted in Kelly Cahill's case made me more determined than ever to try to extract the full potential of the physical evidence in Peter Khoury's extraordinary abduction encounter." ("Hair of the Alien" page 67) Chapter Five Alien DNA? - describes the two phases of the "alien hair" analyses - "Strange Evidence" & "Very Strange Evidence" - which "represent potent evidence for a forensic and scientific approach to alien abduction cases that will help illuminate the possible strange reality that may be at the heart of such claims." ("Hair of the Alien" page 80) Chapter Six The Nobel Laureate: describes Kary Mullis' strange "alien abduction" experience - "Strangeness and reality unbound are the siren calls of this phenomenon." ("Hair of the Alien", page 85) Chapter Seven Tape of Lost Memory: confronts some bizarre aspects to Peter Khoury's story - "The DNA forensic work has given us an extraordinary level of certainty of (Peter Khoury's July 1992) event. All that evidence argues that the July 1992 experience and the "hair of the alien" are not about a hoax, a delusion, or some fantasy." ("Hair of the Alien", page 116) Chapter Eight More Hair - describes "the Alien Reality" and the spectre of biological evidence in the alien abduction experience. Chapter Nine An Early Abduction Odyssey - describes a hither-to unknown abduction - contact" milieu that "actually prefigured several extraordinary elements of the UFO abduction phenomenon that would not become public for more than a decade ... (until the) 1987 best selling book "Intruders". (The) story was unpolluted by our modern culture's fixation with the prototypical alien abduction experience. As such, it represents a critical touchstone for investigators of this phenomenon." ("Hair of the Alien", page 138) Chapter Ten Shaman Blues describes a shamanic perspective on the alien abduction story and explores the experiences and credibility of the alien tales of Zulu sangoma Credo Mutwa - "(He) may represent a particularly intriguing case study of the emergence of an "alien" story from an indigenous source." ("Hair of the Alien", page 171) Chapter Eleven Hidden Evidence - looks at a forensic take, anchored in physical evidence, on the alien abduction experience, and surveys some of attempts of gaining such evidence. I conclude, "... science should indeed light the way in the study of alien abductions." ("Hair of Alien", page 204) Chapter Twelve The Light Fantastic - examines "solid light" evidence, and how "a forensic approach can draw some metaphorical blood." ("Hair of the Alien", page 211) Chapter Thirteen Strange Speculations - takes a strange odyssey, led by clues from our genetic findings - "Dragon Seed - the Chinese Connection", "Basque Legacy - the Iberian Vinculum", and "Tuatha Mythos - the Gaelic Celtic Nexus" - strange speculations and resonances indeed! Epilogue Appendix - provides the detailed technical reports covering both phases of the DNA work in the Khoury case. Notes - many of the end notes expand extensively on issues touched upon in the book. Also included are Acknowledgments, Bibliography, Index and an 8 page colour photo section. Further research, investigations and commentary is covered on my web site and web log (blog) site: www.theozfiles.com http://theozfiles.blogspot.com The internet based TV show I co-hosted includes an interview with Peter Khoury and a discussion of his experiences: www.bananatv.com/ufo I look forward to the response to my book and I will respond on my web log and any other appropriate forum.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:30:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:15:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Redfern >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:59:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >What does age have to do with it? Ever hear of Philip Corso, C. >B. Moore, J. B. Johnson, or Frank Kaufmann? All were old guys >who were caught either hoaxing, lying, altering data, changing >stories, and/or telling tales of dubious veracity putting their >own personal spin on the Roswell case, and thus confusing the >issues even further. David There is no doubt that there has been a disinformation angle to Roswell. But I think your point about each of the above people you cite putting there own "personal spin" on Roswell is important. Corso was giving his account, Kaufmann was giving his account - all separately and all personally. But my sources - all in their 80s and one in bad health - were all telling different aspects of the same story but from their own perspectives and memories. It is one thing to have a Corso or a Kaufmann providing their own, _single_ accounts. But when you have 4 people, in different parts of the country, all having to hold a story together over the course of 2 years of interviews, then that becomes harder. Plus, as I said yesterday, if this is disinformation why would they approach me? I wasn't even doing any Roswell research and it was literally one of those out-of-the-blue scenarios. More importantly to me, it seems not a good idea for the Government to try and further hide a crashed UFO story by saying it did diabolical experiments on handicapped people. That's hardly a good way of keeping people's attention from the story - whether they believe it or not. And as I also said: why the need for another cover story anyway? The Mogul and Dummy scenarios are still in place. To introduce a further angle would make people more suspicious. >"Mr. Levine was neither subtle nor discreet. Plus, his >distinctly conspiratorial tone and manner was pure theater and >something straight out of a third-rate pulp thriller. I >therefore suspect that whatever the truth of this strange >affair, Mr. Levine was not the innocent he claimed to be. >Rather, I am of the opinion that he was simply the latest (but >surely not the last) player to emerge from the top-secret Anglo- >American operation that had its origins in whatever it was that >did or did not occur at Roswell, New Mexico..." The Levine meeting _was_ a weird one. My best estimate of the situation is that Levine was genuine in having related the facts of what occurred re seeing the autopsy film, having received a briefing, etc. Now, while I don't believe he was completely the innocent that he claimed to be, what I _do_ believe is that perhaps there were people in the British Government/Intelligence world that knew the story re the Japanese angle to Roswell and wanted to get the story out there and have someone (perhaps someone like me) investigate and expose it. That way, if it was true and the story came out, it would have come from a UFO researcher and would not look like the British Government had blown the whistle on the US Government. Therefore, use someone like Levine - who comes across like an innocent whistleblower but who is acting on behalf of his employees to expose the story on their behalf, albeit in a fashion that doesn't expose the British Government as the source of the information - officially at least - in the process. However, the other interviewees do not fit the mold of someone like Levine or Kaufmann, etc. I say that because for 18 months they would not talk to me (see the dates of the interviews in the back of the book - July 2001 and then a gap until the end of 2003 and into 2004). Refusal to talk for one and a half years would hardly be the approach of a team of trained disinformation agents, if they wanted this story putting in the public domain. And with their ages - in their 80s - refusal to talk for 18 months could mean that anyone of them could have died from old age or illness in that period. That's the oddest thing of all if they were disinformation people - none of them were particuarly trying to "beat the clock" to relate all this to me. I was the one flying and driving across country to convince them, after I got the initial data from the first source in LA in July 2001. And from then
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:16:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison >From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >All we need to do, collectively, is not to implode by bitching to >ourselves but to stand together as one, despite the difference >of opinions and beliefs we all have. Robert: Everything you said made good sense, until you wrote the above sentence. I can't agree with your closing sentence. Having differences of opinion (but staying objective and using proper scientific methodologies) is one thing, but believing/propagating unfounded speculation is another. The biggest obstacle this field has to making progress (whether that is understanding the nature of the UFO phenomenon or getting acceptance by the public, media, scientific community, etc.) is - to quote Richard Hall in a recent post - "the cancer that has invaded this field." To stand united with this group is to ensure that Ufology continues to be ridiculed and on a path that could bring it to its doom. Only by somehow seperating disciplined Ufology from the foolishness - and having the public, media, and scientific community understand and recognize this seperation - does the field have any hope. Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh part of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:18:56 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:00:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook ><snip> >>He says that his army service record was distorted to exclude >>references to his actual training and assignments, and refers to >>him only performing clerical duties as a typist. Like many >>whistleblowers, there is controversy over inconsistencies >>between his testimony and lack of documentary evidence to verify >>his alleged training and actual service. > >Based on my group's and my own experiences as targets of brutal >electronic torture and endless in-community harassment by people >who think they are serving God and country, I'd like to offer >our experiences in support of the possibility that distortion of >service records as Sgt Stone claims is _well_ within _proven_ >government practice. <snip> >When you stand _our_ experiences next to Clifford Stone's claim >that his service record was tampered with, and his real >assignments covered up, you begin to see (if you are honest and >open minded) that what Sgt Stone claims is not only possible, >but likely. > >I understand that doesn't "prove" Sgt Stone's claims, but >without a great deal more information, I would not label him as >"discredited" based on his published service record alone. > >This is why I suggested that a _public_ (at least public on this >list) roster of "discredited" witnesses be made up with the >reasons why each is deemed "discredited." That would be a step >towards arriving at the truth. > >At the very least it would give the "discredited" witnesses the >chance to defend themselves. Aloha Eleanor, Thank for raising this issue of how official records can be altered or hidden in covert projects. As far as 'discredited whistleblowers' are concerned, from a social science perspective, there needs to be objective criteria for when someone is 'discredited'. Too often individuals assume a whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is discredited because they have not been able to adequately respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip Corso on the basis of him only serving, according to official documents, only ninety days rather than two years as head of the Foreign Technology Desk at Army Research and Development. Similarly, some have criticized him for alleging to have served as a member of the National Security Council (something he said in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI files. Nevertheless, some prominent researchers conclude that Corso is discredited and his testimony unreliable. I think you are correct to point out we need to develop valid criteria for when someone is discredited and discuss a proper process for evaluating whistleblower credibility. Perhaps UFO updates might like to take the initiative in organizing a committee of scholars/researchers who can create an objective set of critieria to assess whistleblower credibility. I think that would be a very helpful exercize.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Looking For Moon Trees From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:50:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:24:59 -0400 Subject: Looking For Moon Trees Source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4694361.stm 19 July, 2005 Trees... From The Moon By Richard Black Environment correspondent They have been to space and back and virtually all of them lived to tell the tale. There are more of them than there are astronauts and they are found all over the planet. "They" are Moon Trees grown from seeds which journeyed to the Moon and back on board Apollo 14 in 1971. In the early days of the space race, various living things went into orbit - most notably Laika, the Soviet Union's first dog in space which survived a few orbits in the grim metal prison of Sputnik 2. But seeds? When I came across the story, many questions sprang to mind - whose idea was it, and why? Was there any scientific purpose? Were the seeds changed by their journey? If you see a Moon Tree, how do you know it's a Moon Tree? <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:06:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:28:47 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is >>based on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower >>testimony of Sgt Clifford Stone. >>Michael Salla >>****** >>Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* >>snip< >>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. >Dr. Salla >Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty >after a tour in Iraq (okay, Baghdad and points around it) and I >still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall >in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, >once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not >expect to do so until 2009. Major KRandle, isn't it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:48:56 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:33:54 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Gates >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:26 +0100 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:04 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>I am primarily thinking of the debris witnesses, you must be >>>aware of that, but now you want me to talk about the more >>>fragile area of witnesses for the alien bodies. >>Gildas >>Interesting that after criticizing me for believing testimony >>about Japanese bodies found in New Mexico, you yourself admit >>that the evidence for alien bodies is "fragile". <snip> >I remind you both, that _no_ bodies were reported at any of the >Roswell crash sites in 1947. Had any actually been discovered I >find it inconceivable that such would not have been mentioned at >the time. There were a number of people whose comments appear in >the Roswell Daily Record for July 9, but none from anyone who >saw, or knew about, any bodies. Nor at any time in the ensuing >days, months or years. As I recall Mac Brazil indicated (talking about the bodies) something along the lines of 'they are not green...' Other witnesses indicate that the bodies were packed up in crates and flown out. After a particular Roswell witness (who has not been endlessly discredited like some) dies, we will allegedly hear the testimony about how he saw the bodies etc etc. He has provided an oral interview that apparently is on video tape, but will not be released until his death. The bottom line to that one is the witness knew more information then he told the various researchers over the years. I also understand that another set of researchers have been provided information which may include photographs taken, however that was provided only on the basis of non release until after the person is dead. Kind of like the infamous Watergate Deep Throat, although his family apparently wanted to milk the money cow and convinced him to discuss his story. >And I do not believe for one moment that people who did witness >the bodies, especially the civilians, were all sworn to secrecy. >A 35-year hush-up? A likely scenario! A then secret CIA aircraft, called the A-12, crashed near Wendover Nevada back around 1966. The local civilian witnesses were sworn to secrecy, and to this day have not uttered a word...even though the existance of the plane is out, the program is essentially declassified, etc etc. People tend to take that sort of thing seriously
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:27:46 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:43:13 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* <snip> >>>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. <snip> >However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >(available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm <snip> >So Stone's "pioneering work" was able to show how Lt Col Madison >was covering up the existence of these classified projects >designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >through his FOIA requests: >"He [Stone] pointed out that documents originally classified as >secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, >and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also >established as fact the location of the parent unit being at >Fort Belvoir, Virginia. " (152) <snip> >It's worth emphasizing that we now have "all the data" due to >Stone's pioneering work and ability to find the truth despite >official Air Force initial denials of the existences of Projects >Moon Dust and Blue Fly. What your own chapter demonstrates is >that Stone was a pivotal figure in getting information about >these highly classified projects into the public arena. He >achieved this through persistent FOIA requests despite official >denials, and was successful in contrast to the efforts of >numerous veteran UFO researchers who have researched the Roswell >crash but have been unable to find documentary evidence of the >existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. This is nonsense! Veteran UFO researcher, Robert G. Todd, the master of FOIA requests, uncovered Project Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents in the late 70's, long before Clifford Stone came along. Todd uncovered the critical 1961 AF Intelligence definition document on Moon Dust and Blue Fly in an AF release of Aug. 20, 1979, as written up in the CAUS newsletter of June 1986. See online copy at: http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo This means that Stone had no such "pioneering role" in uncovering the 'truth' about Moon Dust and Blue Fly, and it does not validate his suspect story in the slightest despite your overheated efforts to twist history to support his whacked-out claims. CUFON had a number of Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents on its website in years past such as the following AF letter of Nov 13, 1978, confirming the existence of Moon Dust and Blue Fly long before Stone had anything to do with any of it: "BLUEFLY was a project for the acquisition of airlift for a quick reaction capability. It was determined that the need did not exist and the project was discontinued several years ago." MOONDUST is a program in which the Air Force provides technical assistance in determining the origin of space debris, U.S. or foreign." http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm >The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. If Stone was in the Army he would have had no "active role" in the AF Projects, as the Army and the AF were separate military services, and there is no shred of evidence of any interservice posting. >Stone's >successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the >existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as >you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist >positions, how would he have learned about the existence of >these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their >existence into the public arena? He would have learned of Moon Dust and Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts to recover downed Soviet satellites. >I would suggest that we have two possibilities here. One, Stone >is a deluded and/or publicity seeking UFO researcher who somehow >got lucky in uncovering official documentation proving the >existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. You need to answer the question what documents - if any - on Moon Dust and Blue Fly did Stone uncover that Bob Todd and others had not already uncovered long before Stone came along as a johnny-come-lately. >Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service >in classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon >Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests >since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their >location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. Since Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney Peter Gersten, at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for Gersten in the late 70's and 80's, I suggest Stone found out a lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many tens of thousands of pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF, and many other agencies, there was simply no way to publish it all). A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the trail Todd blazed years before him. >My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible >and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others >lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's >success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and >uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. It proves nothing since it looks more like a ripoff of Bob Todd's research, who was apparently the first to "prove the existence of Project Moon Dust and... its location at Fort Belvoir," or certainly Todd did so many years before Stone ever got involved (there is a possibility someone "uncovered" Moon Dust even before Bob Todd, and of course before Stone, who did _not_ "uncover" its existence). >The implication is >rather startling for those still debating whether UFO's are >real, Stone did serve on UFO crash retrieval teams under Project >Moon Dust, and his military records were altered to hide the >actual training he performed and his military assignments. This >of course leads to my own observations regarding the information >Stone was told by his handler, a 'Colonel', who had the EBE >guidebook describing 57 EBE groups that might be encountered at >any UFO crash retrieval location.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Different Visitors? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:26:19 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:46:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Different Visitors? - Stevenson >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:31 +0100 >Subject: Different Visitors? >How come some UFO sightings really spook animals/livestock >while others apparently don't? >See latest from Scott Corrales at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m23-014.shtml >for one sort and maybe check "tanan.txt" in Google for a very >different sort. >Are we being visited by entirely different types of folks - some >scarey some not? >Nb - used word `scarey' but at back of _my_ mind is propulsion >methods used by `craft' - Earth animals generally have much >wider range of sense-abilities than we humans do, and types of >radiation (or `exhaust') from say a particular type of >inertialess drive or magnetic-field lift could set-off their >alarm bells. >(Like `earthquake triggers' do?) Hi Ray and List Here in the UK we have been instructed by repeat showings of a Channel 4 Terrestrial TV program that _all_ UFO's are Military, of advanced engineering from German Technology of the 1930/40's. Why the Military like or dislike animals is a little puzzling to me.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:46:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:49:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory - Goldstein >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:55:59 -0700 >Subject: Re: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:19 -0700 >>Subject: Thoughts On The Redfern Theory >>Most of the debris from an alleged Fugo balloon crash, even in >>combination with a Horten flying wing made of metal, would >>_not_ be metallic. Fugo balloons were made of rice paper, not >>metal. >David >I noted that you said that you hadn't read the book, so the >following is the data that you have missed. <snip> >>I find it a remarkable "coincidence" that Nick Redfern's >>theory is almost identical to the one proposed by Jim >Wilson in >>the July 1997 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine. >Wilson also >>proposed a Fugo balloon lifting a Horten flying wing >manned by a >>Japanese crew brought over in the Japanese equivalent >of >>Operation Paperclip. About the only differences are >Wilson >>proposed the crew being regular pilots or engineers >instead of >>human radiation guinea pigs and didn't mention anything >about >>nuclear reactors. >First, I include the Popular Mechanics story in the book. >Second, I point out on page 131, that there is _no way_ that it >can be coincidence that PM got the same story as I did. Third, >as I keep saying - but no-one seems to listen - there were >_no_deformed Japanese people in the Roswell crash and _no_ >atomic aircraft. <snip> >>I assumed then that Wilson had dreamt the whole thing >up on his >>own to capitalize on the 50th anniversary of Roswell. >But now >>Nick Redfern is putting out basically the same theory, >with an >>anonymous Lt. Colonel as a primary source. There is >simply too >>much in common between the Wilson and Redfern >stories for this >>to be coincidence. This raises a number of possibilities, >among >>them being: >>1. Wilson originally dreamt it up, but others copycatted >the >>theory and then presented it to Redfern as fact. 2. Both >Wilson >>and Redfern were approached by the same sources, >who fed them >>the story, true or not. <snip> I think it would be interesting if one of you would try and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:40:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:53:24 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military >>service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was >>never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present >>at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions >>of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to >>read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained >>information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities >>(EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the "EBE >>Guidebook" in 1979 and claims that it contained much information >>on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food >>requirements and medical information. >>The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the >>information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This >>has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now >>elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the >>physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs. >The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >Does anyone have any comments about this number? Other than, "...with you, 58"? The Drake's equation says they _are_. Fermi's paradox says they _will_. Evidentiary Ufology say they _have_. A lot more than a mere 58, I should say. And every one of them so far up _your_ nose you can feel their clammy suckers and grasping claspers on your top lip, too. <g> Feel them scuttling, Mr. Allan...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:47:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:00:00 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:00:31 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >I think you are correct to point out we need to develop valid >criteria for when someone is discredited and discuss a proper >process for evaluating whistleblower credibility. Perhaps UFO >updates might like to take the initiative in organizing a >committee of scholars/researchers who can create an objective >set of critieria to assess whistleblower credibility. I think >that would be a very helpful exercize. _Far_ more than a "helpful exercise", a public process for vetting witnesses would help significantly in any exopolitical efforts, and, would help the credibility of ufology too. Perhaps a "verdict" as such isn't needed, but rather, a list of questions from ufologists, and after each question, a response by the witness. Investigators would be able to add information as they find it, in a blog format. Presenting these on a publicly accessible web site would allow everyone to make up their own mind. The popular "phpBB" bulletin board software could be a way to hold the data. My own web sites' hosting company offers each domain owner free use of phpBB software, which works really well. Chances are access could be had at a minimal cost. Would it discourage other whistelblowers? Maybe, maybe not. When you know you have a truth of "Biblical" importance to tell, I doubt if a polite attempt to check out your credibility and information will deter people of courage who hold such information. Especially when the witness gets to post as well. (I would not automatically assume that where a witness declined to respond, they are necessarily bogus.) By the way, I'd like to respectfully disagree with Errol on his expressed stand on this past Saturday's (July 23, 2005) Strange Days... Indeed program. If I heard properly, Errol made a statement indicating he felt that exopolitics isn't the way to go in seeking the full truth about UFOs. As I see it, disparaging exopolitics activity amounts to saying that government probably doesn't have information worth seeking, and getting what they have wouldn't help much on the UFO truth quest. I know from personal experience what absolutely incredible technology is being kept hidden from public view. So much, and so advanced, that if what government has hidden away relating to UFOs is half as much, full disclosure would be such a major event that only the second coming of Christ would be more significant. I'm extremely grateful for Errol's efforts to keep SDI on the air, and I would urge Errol to reconsider the potential returns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:22:34 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:01:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:52:20 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>Mike, >>Bill's report on Peter Khoury's DNA case has been posted on his >>web page >>http://theozfiles.blogspot.com >>http://www.theozfiles.com >Actually there is no report there, just a teaser to buy the book. Thanks for your comments, however some clarification is required. http://www.theozfiles.com/strange_evidence1.html does carry a report on the first phase of the Khoury DNA study, and it has been available on the web for a number of years. www.cufos.org also carried a PDF file of the same report - my original "Strange Evidence" paper which appeared in the International UFO Reporter back in 1999. >I've been peripherally involved several times in attempted hair >analysis related to samples purported to be bigfoot hair. >Most people don't know it, but you can't get usable DNA for >analysis from hair. Unless the hair has been yanked out by the >roots and still has follicles attached, there is no DNA present. >And the DNA in the follicles tends to decay with time. This not correct. Certainly it is much more difficult getting DNA from human hair shafts, but the FBI are doing it, and my APEG team utilised these FBI experimental protocols to develop the test procedure that was applied to the Khoury sample. I think maybe you are focused on nuclear DNA which is indeed very problematical in shaft samples. This preliminary study was focused on mitochondrial DNA which exists in quantities 200 to 500 times that of nuclear DNA, and is hence more easily detected in an aged or compromised sample, the kind of thing that is often found in a crime scene, and dare I say, maybe in some "alien abduction crime scenes". The other problem is the inhibitory effect of the pigment melanin on the PCR process. The FBI protocol outlined, for example, in "Extraction, PCR Amplification and Sequencing of Mitochondrial DNA from Human Hair Shafts" by Wilson et.al, BioTechniques, Vol. 18. No. 4 (1995) is specifically applied to hair shafts. This allowed the FBI etc to extract DNA from such crime scene evidence as shed hair, ie. hair without follicles/roots. Until this development, yes, DNA extraction was limited to hair follicles/roots. While our phase one work took into consideration the possible impact of melanin, it turned out to not be a significant issue because there was very little melanin present. >I know nothing at all about this Australian case, so it would be >useful if someone would post some actual information here rather >than just attempting to sell us a book. Was the hair supposed to >have been forcefully pulled from these "females"? Did it have >intact hair follicles? Or was it simply strands of blonde hair? >If the latter is the case, electron microscope analysis would be >appropriate, and could easily determine if the hair was >human/anthropoid or something else. We did have a hair strand with hair root/follicle and this aspect became the subject of our Phase two study. We intentionally initially focused on the shaft, as this could be replicated, which we did in Phase 2. The root part however was going to be a one off therefore we delayed doing that. The results of that work have been summarised on my site for some time, reported in summary form again in recent and current articles in the International Reporter, the MUFON UFO Journal, and the Australasian Ufologist, but is now reported fully in my book, Hair Of The Alien. Sorry for the plug again. However in the book I have gone to some trouble to give both a simple presentation of the science and also the full methodology in the appendix for those who wish those details. I encourage you to read about the case, particularly in its detailed form. I look forward to hearing from you when you have acquainted yourself with the detail of the work. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:09:08 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:03:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frola >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>All we need to do, collectively, is not to implode by bitching to >>ourselves but to stand together as one, despite the difference >>of opinions and beliefs we all have. >Everything you said made good sense, until you wrote the above >sentence. >I can't agree with your closing sentence. Having differences of >opinion (but staying objective and using proper scientific >methodologies) is one thing, but believing/propagating unfounded >speculation is another. Exposing the frauds and con men I have no problems with, but we still have to all work together, at least in respect to respecting other points of view, however distasteful it might be to us. Doesn't mean we have to accept everything that comes our way. But interpreting my last sentence as believing or propagating unfounded speculation? That wasn't on my mind when I wrote this. For if I don't agree with someone theory, I will not propagate it. End of story. I find it unnecessary and a total waste of energy fighting it publicly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:19:57 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is based >>>on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower testimony of >>>Sgt Clifford Stone. >>>Michael Salla >>>****** >>>Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >>>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* >><snip> >>>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. >>Dr. Salla - >>Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty >>after a tour in Iraq (okay, Baghdad and points around it) and I >>still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall >>in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, >>once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not >>expect to do so until 2009. >Aloha Capt Randle, thank you for clarifying your current >military status, and apologies for not following earlier >discussions where you described your current status. Perhaps I >can be forgiven for taking literally what was said on the inside >back cover of your book, Project Moon Dust (1998): 'A retired >Captain in the U.S. Air Force.' I would suggest in future you >get your publisher to more accurately describe your military >status in any biographical statements to prevent future >misunderstandings. I was telling you that I have not retired from the military and provided the latest in my military background. When the jacket material for Project Moon Dust was written it was accurate. The original edition says nothing about me being retired. Unfortunately, in the mass market paperback, someone has added the note that I was retired. So, let me tell you that I joined the US Army in 1967 as a private, did basic training at Ft. Polk. When that was completed, I entered Warrant Officer Flight Training and completed that in August, 1968. I was a helicopter pilot and was sent immediately to Vietnam. I flew with the 116th Assault Helicopter Company and later with the 187th AHC. When my tour ended, I was assigned to Ft. Wolters, Texas and was released from active duty in June, 1971. While in college, I took Air Force ROTC and was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Air Force. I did a short active duty tour and then joined the 442nd Tactical Airlift Group at Richards-Gebaur AFB in Missouri. From there I went to the O'Hare Air Reserve Forces Facility and was eventually promoted to captain. In 1986 I ended active participation in the Air Force Reserve but remained in the Inactive Reserve. In 2002, after 9-11, I joined the Iowa Army National Guard, as a captain, and in March 2003 we were called to Federal Active Duty. After training at Ft. Riley, KS (yes the very base that Corso was at when he saw the little bodies in boxes) we were sent first to Kuwait and then, within days, to Baghdad. We convoyed up the main highway to Baghdad. Eleven months later, we rotated out of theater, to Ft. Riley, and the back to our home station. I served as the battalion intelligence officer during our tour. I have also received training as a military police officer In July 2004, my name appeared on the Department of the Army promotion list to Major. Now you have no excuse for misunderstanding my somewhat eclectic military background. >Since I have your attention, I would appreciate you clarifying >some of your comments made in the case of Clifford Stone in some >earlier correspondence between us. You for example said in an >earlier post: Okay, but I hesitate to get involved in this because you simply won't listen. No matter what evidence is offered, you spin it so that your favorite "whistleblower" is the victim of governmental efforts to suppress the information and attempts to suggest otherwise have some sort of nefarious motivation. Here it is but you're not going to like it. >'Stone claims that he had 'never been trained as a clerk >typist,' yet his service record shows that about his only >training in the Army (other than basic training) was as a clerk >typist. He attended school at the USATC for eight weeks and was >awarded the military occupation speciality (MOS) of 'Clktypist >71B in 1968. He took an advanced NCO school for five weeks in >1982 and a one week school labeled as 'headstart' in 1989. So, >in other words, about the only training he did have was as a >typist. His assignments, throughout his military career have one >thing in common. They are all labeled as clerk or admin. None of >the strange assignments he claimed and no holes in his record >for such assignments. Oh, yes, his records were altered. I >forgot.' Yes, I know what I wrote and I have seen no evidence to suggest that any of that is untrue. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m14-014.shtml >You are clearly dismissing Stone's claims of having served on >UFO Crash Retrieval teams such as Project Moon Dust. The >implication is that Stone never did any of the training he >claimed, nor served on any of the Crash retrieval assignments he >claimed. The conclusion therefore is that Stone is embellishing >what appears to have been a rather pedestrian military career. >And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military >records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone >is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. I vote for number two. SFC Stone offered no evidence that his records have been altered other than his claim. And I doubt that you have asked for any evidence of the same. But let's say that you decide to check my background and you write to the big records center in St. Louis. And, let's say that you find my claim to have been trained as a military police officer to be questionable. When the records arrive (those parts that are considered to be public record), you find no indications of training in military police. You ask for clarification and I say that my records, for whatever reason, have been altered. But, to prove that claim, I offer certified copies of the graduation certificate that I received at the completion of the training, I can provide copies of the course work to show it's completion, and if you travel to Ft. Leonard Wood and go into the Military Police School, you find my class footprint (which is the plaque we donated) includes both my name and my photograph with the rest of the class. In other words, I can prove it beyond the military record and I don't have to claim my records have been altered. It could be just a case of the clerk being too busy inventing tales to take proper care of his assigned duties. >However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >(available online at: >http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm :>( >'When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force >about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel >John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of >Legislative Liaison, wrote, 'There is no agency, nor has there >ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with >UFO's or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In >addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. >Those missions have never existed.' What the documentation, now >available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and >the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that >Madison's letter to a United States Senator is, at best, >inaccurate.' (p. 151). >So Stone's 'pioneering work' was able to show how Lt Col Madison >was covering up the existence of these classified projects >designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >through his FOIA requests: Brad Sparks noted that Stone would have learned of Moon Dust and Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts to recover downed Soviet satellites. >'He [Stone] pointed out that documents originally classified as >secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, >and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also >established as fact the location of the parent unit being at >Fort Belvoir, Virginia. ' (152) >Later in your book you say: 'Is it necessary here to suggest >that the Air Force had been caught in a lie (or misinformation) >to Senator Bingaman because the documents were available to >positively refute them? (p. 152). >You conclude chapter 8 in your book by saying: >'Moon Dust became the real investigation of UFOs, the secret >study that all of us claimed existed and that the Air Force >denied. It was carried out by specially trained intelligence >personnel. And, its existence was denied by the Air Force >despite the facts. Now we have all the data.' (161) This says nothing about Stone's credibility as a witness, only that he supplied, to me, documents that he, and others, had uncovered concerning Project Moon Dust and Operation Blue Fly. I always try to provide credit where credit is due - even when there is a chance it'll come back to haunt. The truth is that Stone shared the information he and those others had gathered, regardless of the source. I will point out that his analysis wasn't always supported by the information. Once he told me that the Chilean Air Force had fired missiles at a UFO and hit it without doing any damage. What the report actually said was that the Chilean Air Force had fired missiles at a UFO without result which could have meant that they missed it. >It's worth emphasizing that we now have 'all the data' due to >Stone's pioneering work and ability to find the truth despite >official Air Force initial denials of the existences of Projects >Moon Dust and Blue Fly. What your own chapter demonstrates is >that Stone was a pivotal figure in getting information about >these highly classified projects into the public arena. He >achieved this through persistent FOIA requests despite official >denials, and was successful in contrast to the efforts of >numerous veteran UFO researchers who have researched the Roswell >crash but have been unable to find documentary evidence of the >existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. Brad Sparks sent the following, and supplied it to the List, but I think it bears repeating because it shows the true evolution of this area of investigation. Sparks wrote: --- "'Veteran UFO researcher' Robert G. Todd, the master of FOIA requests, uncovered Project Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents in the late 70's, long before Clifford Stone came along. Todd uncovered the critical 1961 AF Intelligence definition document on Moon Dust and Blue Fly in an AF release of Aug. 20, 1979, as written up in the CAUS newsletter of June 1986, see online copy at: http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo This means that Stone had no such 'pioneering role' in uncovering the 'truth' about Moon Dust and Blue Fly and it does not validate his suspect story in the slightest despite your overheated efforts to twist history to support his wacked out claims. http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm --- So, what we have, in reality, is Stone telling me how he had gathered all this information, but forgetting to mention that he had followed in the footsteps of others, most notably Robert Todd. Stone's work wasn't pivotal, but Todd's was. >The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. There is no inconsistency. Stone had the documents, shared them with me and deserved the credit for doing so. However, when he began to inject himself into the middle of the operations, claiming expertise that he didn't have and telling tales that clearly were not true, then it was time to say something more. More important, he forgot to mention Robert Todd and those who had led the way for him. As I followed in his footsteps, and provided credit for his assistance, he followed in the footsteps of others and forgot to provide credit to those. >On the one hand you imply that Stone is either deluded or a >publicity seeking fraud in describing himself as active in the >UFO crash retrieval projects. Yet your own book, and Stone's >successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the >existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as >you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist >positions, how would he have learned about the existence of >these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their >existence into the public arena? By reading the information that had been published by others and that clearly precede his involvement in the subject. >I would suggest that we have two possibilities here. One, Stone >is a deluded and/or publicity seeking UFO researcher who somehow >got lucky in uncovering official documentation proving the >existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. It wasn't luck - others had marked the path. >Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service >In classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon >Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests >since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their >location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. As Sparks notes, Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney Peter Gersten at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for Gersten in the late 70's and 80's. I suggest Stone found out a lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many 10,000's of pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF and many other agencies there was simply no way to publish it all). A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the trail Todd blazed years before him. >My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible >and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others >lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's >success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and >uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. Sparks wrote it proves nothing since it looks more like a ripoff of Bob Todd's research, who was apparently the first to 'prove the existence of Project Moon Dust and... its location at Fort Belvoir,' or certainly Todd did so many years before Stone ever got involved (there is a possibility someone 'uncovered' Moon Dust even before Bob Todd, and of course before Stone who did _not_ 'uncover' its existence). Please note that the information was in the public arena before Stone began his revelations, so it doesn't prove he was on the inside, merely that he had read the UFO literature. It also says a lot about him because he forgot to mention the role of others in finding the information. >The implication is >rather startling for those still debating whether UFO's are >real, Stone did serve on UFO crash retrieval teams under Project >Moon Dust, and his military records were altered to hide the >actual training he performed and his military assignments. This >of course leads to my own observations regarding the information >Stone was told by his handler, a 'Colonel', who had the EBE >guidebook describing 57 EBE groups that might be encountered at >any UFO crash retrieval location. Sparks said it better than I could. The 'implication is rather startling' that you would build such a ridiculous case on such bogus and fraudulent falsification of FOIA history. Bob Todd got the goods on Moon Dust as early as 1979 and Stone did not. >I look forward to your reply. I doubt this is what you expected. I'm interested in what it would take to prove that Stone is not an insider, but a well- educated (meaning here that he knows about the documents) outsider who has created an interesting story. When he ran out of documents to interest reporters and others, he injected himself into the mix, telling ever increasingly bizarre stories until he now mentions 57 alien races. I'm reminded of the great scene in The Manchurian Candidate in which 'Johnny' is complaining about the ever changing number of communists in the State Department until they settle on 57, as in Heinz's 57 varieties.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Is There Anyone Out There? 15,000 Times Yes From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:28:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:28:48 -0400 Subject: Is There Anyone Out There? 15,000 Times Yes Source: The Herald - Glasgow, Scotland http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/43647.html July 25 2005 Is There Anyone Out There... Yes, 15,000 Times, Yes Ian Bruce Defence Correspondent The Ministry of Defence has examined more than 15,000 alleged sightings of flying saucers and other unidentified flying objects over Britain since 1959 and is still keeping an open mind on the existence of aliens. The sightings were reported from John o' Groats to Land's End by RAF and civilian pilots, air traffic controllers, policemen and even MoD employees as well as members of the public, according to documents released under the Freedom of Information Act. They were examined by a special section of the directorate of air staff "to establish whether the UK's airspace might have been compromised by unauthorised air activity", a spokesman said. To date, there was no evidence of extraterrestrial activity. The most common sightings included reports of orange-coloured discs, spheres, triangles and balls of fire which could change formation. An undisclosed but "considerable" number were seen over RAF and US air force bases in England. The official policy line is that "the MoD does not have any expertise or role in respect of UFOs or flying saucer matters or to the existence or otherwise of extraterrestrial lifeforms, about which it remains totally open-minded". The spokesman added: "We know of no evidence which substantiates the existence of such phenomena. Unless there is evidence of a potential threat to the UK from an external source, and so far no report has revealed such evidence, we do not investigate the precise nature of each sighting. "We believe that rational explanations such as aircraft lights or natural phenomena could be found for them if resources were diverted for this purpose. But it is not the function of the MoD to provide this kind of aerial identification service." The figures show that the peak years for sightings were 1978, with 750 reports, and 1999, with 609. As The Herald revealed in March, West Kilbride in Ayrshire was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:58:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:35:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Velez >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:22:34 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >>I know nothing at all about this Australian case, so it would be >>useful if someone would post some actual information here rather >>than just attempting to sell us a book. Was the hair supposed to >>have been forcefully pulled from these "females"? Did it have >>intact hair follicles? Or was it simply strands of blonde hair? >>If the latter is the case, electron microscope analysis would be >>appropriate, and could easily determine if the hair was >>human/anthropoid or something else. >We did have a hair strand with hair root/follicle and this >aspect became the subject of our Phase two study. >We intentionally initially focused on the shaft, as this could >be replicated, which we did in Phase 2. >The root part however was going to be a one off therefore we >delayed doing that. >The results of that work have been summarised on my site for >some time, reported in summary form again in recent and current >articles in the International Reporter, the MUFON UFO Journal, >and the Australasian Ufologist, but is now reported fully in my >book, Hair Of The Alien. Hi Bill, You wrote: >Sorry for the plug again. >However in the book I have gone to some trouble to give both a >simple presentation of the science and also the full methodology >in the appendix for those who wish those details. I encourage >you to read about the case, particularly in its detailed form. >I look forward to hearing from you when you have acquainted >yourself with the detail of the work. No need to apologise. Last week I mentioned you and the Koury case in a post to this List. I believe it was Bob Frola that 'picked up the ball' and started this thread. I'm glad to see you here. I hope that people take the time to familiarize themselves with the details of this case. Everyone is always (rightfully,) asking for hard evidence for reports of UFO/alien abduction. It is my very humble opinion that the DNA evidence that has surfaced in this case, is the long sought after/awaited, 'smoking gun' evidence for alien abduction. I look forward to any and all future news/developments in this case and I hope you will keep us all 'UpDated' via the List. Keep up the great work, Bill. There's an awful lot riding on the work you are doing. I wish you Godspeed in all your endeavors pertaining to this case. Maybe one day, between the ground trace evidence, the photographic documentation record of the marks and scars that abductees sustain during the 'abductions', the stained clothing in David Jacobs' possession, the results of the many tests abductees have taken whose results consistently, clearly and repeatedly show we are not crazy or lying, in addition to the test results of the DNA evidence you have gathered, will, when viewed as a whole, make a very compelling case for the physical reality of UFO/alien abduction that many of us have been reporting. Between you. me and the walls, I can't wait for the day. I have several large black crows ready to be baked into pies and mailed to a few very carefully chosen individuals. Not all of em I'm sure, but 'some' will feel horrible for the way they have treated us and thought of us. :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frisson From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:37:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frisson >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >Most people don't know it, but you can't get usable DNA for >analysis from hair. Unless the hair has been yanked out by the >roots and still has follicles attached, there is no DNA present. >And the DNA in the follicles tends to decay with time. Hi Bob: I have training in Criminalistics and can perhaps shed some light on the nature of hair samples. Human head hair passes through three stages of development during its growth. The shape and size of the root of any strand of hair found as a 'sample' is determined by whatever phase or stage the hair happens to be in when it seperated from the person's head. The three phases of growth are the anagen phase (which can last up to six years), the catagen phase (which lasts two to three weeks), and the telogen phase (the hair is pushed out of the follicle and shed naturally during a two to six month time period). During the anagen phase (phase of continuous growth), the root bulb has a flame-shaped appearance and if the hair is forcibly removed 'anagen hairs' will often be found to retain a follicular tag. (During the catagen phase, the root bulb starts to shrink in size and assume an elongated shape as it starts to be pushed out of the follicle, and when it enters the telogen phase hair growth stops and the root bulb takes on a club-shaped appearance.) Hair that has the follicular tag attached will possess tissue (root sheath cells) that are an excellent source of 'nuclear' DNA - the richest source of DNA associated with hair, if one is attempting to 'individualize' a DNA sample, that is, match it to a specific donor. However, if there is no follicular tag then it is still possible to extract DNA from the hair root itself but usually only from hair that is in the anagen phase or which has just entered the catagen phase - telogen phase hairs have an inadequate amount of nuclear DNA to type successfully. Nuclear DNA is found in every cell of our body (in the nuclei) and is passed down to us from both parents. But there is also another type of DNA, passed on to us only from our mothers, that is found in cellular material outside the nucleus and known as mitochondrial DNA. What is important regarding mitochondrial DNA is that there are many more copies of mtDNA in our cells as compared to nuclear DNA and this means that, in the case of hair (which has very limited quanties of nuclear DNA), the chances of finding and successfully typing mtDNA is much greater. A single mitochondrion contains several loops of DNA and each cell contains hundreds to thousands of mitochondria, thus there are hundreds to thousands of mtDNA copies in a single cell, compared to only one copy of nuclear DNA located within that same cell. The down side is that all individuals with the same maternal lineage cannot be distinguised one from the other by mtDNA analysis so it is not as good if the intent is to match the DNA to a single, specific donor - nuclear DNA reigns supreme here. Mitochondrial DNA testing is much more sensitive than nuclear DNA testing but is also more rigorous, tedious, time-consuming, and more expensive. Nuclear DNA is composed of a linear strand of nucleotides (A, T, G, Cs) while mtDNA is a circular loop that contains approximately 16,500+ A, T, G, and Cs that make up 37 genes used in energy production. Two regions of the mtDNA are highly varible in the human population and these regions (Hypervariable Region I - HV1 and Hypervariable Region II - HV2) must have many copies of them generated by PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) so that the order of the A-T-C-G bases constituting the hypervariable regions can be determined (sequencing). Thus, it is very possible to get useful DNA information from hair even if the hair has not been forcibly removed, or does not possess the follicular tag, if one has access to the relatively few laboratories that can handle this type of DNA analysis. I, too, would like more information regarding this 'alien hair' and also would like to know why they are calling it 'alien.' The last I read about this case (World's Best UFO Cases, ed. Dwight Connelly) seemed to indicate, based on the two types of DNA found, that it was a human hair with rare Chinese-type DNA in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:21:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:45:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Lehmberg >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>All we need to do, collectively, is not to implode by bitching to >>ourselves but to stand together as one, despite the difference >>of opinions and beliefs we all have. >Robert: >Everything you said made good sense, until you wrote the above >sentence. Perhaps you should also mention that you very clearly come down on the wrong side of the bullhorn in the matter because of canted philosophical assumptions, crass institutional bias without balance, and creepy homocentric prejudices without foundation, support, and beyond rationalization. In short, you may not be the best judge of what seems to be a new "kind" of sense, Mr. Frison. >I can't agree with your closing sentence. It's a small blessing that the community remains apart from your agreement or disagreement, Sir, to function at all creatively, bravely, and intelligently with regard to UFOs... as it may be that your agreement is such that it requires consumption of some reflexive traditionalist's kool-aid to be awarded or bestowed, in the first place. >Having differences of >opinion (but staying objective and using proper scientific >methodologies) is one thing, but believing/propagating unfounded >speculation is another. I'm sure you can be the man depended upon to keep us all straight regarding what constitutes these proper "scientific methodologies" - pointedly betraye... lo these many years - on the one hand, and then ascertaining with some small certainty what constitutes "unfounded speculation," on the other. It's all very clear in _your_ mind... I'm sure. >The biggest obstacle this field has to making progress (whether >that is understanding the nature of the UFO phenomenon or >getting acceptance by the public, media, scientific community, >etc.) is - to quote Richard Hall in a recent post - "the cancer >that has invaded this field." This is where you - for reasons of your own, yet to be determined - and the legendary Mr. Hall - bitter with regard to a half-century's abject betrayal by a mainstream that should be shining his shoes - miss the boat... dollar-short-and-day-late! An analogy: Cholesterol in the blood is linked to artery hardening and circulatory disease. Mainstream Medicine's 'evil' fix is to create a plethora of expensive cholesterol reducing drugs to treat the mere symptom of the disease. The disease itself is not treated, just more pricey pharmaceuticals invented to treat its symptoms. Actually, the cholesterol 'plaques' the arterial walls to make up for wall damage due to bad blood chemistry resulting from poor nutrition in a poorer diet. Cholesterol is 'putty' to plug leaky holes eaten away by high homocystein levels... See... the damage is caused by an _underlying_ cause not admitted by the medical system more interested in profitably managing disease than it is in curing it. Artery plaque is the body's natural reaction (like tire sealer)... a 'solution' to the individual problem at the start... and so _not_ the problem... not the disease. We won't be improved by attacking a solution to a problem - ever - I suspect. "Woo-woo's" and other handily discredited types are linked to the disrespect suffered by ufology. Mr. Frison's evil fix is to root the woo-woo out of ufology by flower, seed, and stem. Mainstream interest in ufology is in no way guaranteed with the purge of the "woo-woo", but the purge is pompously prosecuted, none the less. Actually, the "woo-woos" are a reaction to an information void facilitated by a powerful confederation of closed institutions, non-accountable agencies, and unelected governments, all very 'official' but all very jealously conflicted with regard to truth. The "woo-woos" are largely drawn into this "information void", created at the start, in an understandable attempt to provide some kind of rationalization... justification... reason... for highly strange activities of airborne objects flying about over their heads and intruding upon their lives, objects _denied_ by the system charged to serve them! The "woo-woos" are not the cancer described, reader! It's the betraying and hijacked _mainstream_ creating the aforementioned _void_ that is the cancer! Plainly, a diet of quality information regarding UFOs from institution, agency, and government would go a _long_ way to dispel the need for this - first line of defense- 'plaque' of woo-woos trying to patch ufological walls eroded by the duplicity of those proclaiming that "woo-woos" are the disease... and _not_ an understandable reaction to the lack of info they must endure from the _real_ cause of that informational disease! The _system_. Notice, if you can, how in both samples above it is the 'respected' cultural 'system' that is at ultimate villain, and not the individuals reacting individually to the infidelities of those systems... be they right, wrong, or indifferent. They are not disease... they are _reactions_ to a disease. Some of these reactions may be _solution_. We won't know with _your_ ridiculous abdication of the knowledge of cause and effect and the provenance of root causes. >To stand united with this group is to ensure that Ufology >continues to be ridiculed and on a path that could bring it to its >doom. Uh huh... but you class worthy persons such as Paola Harris, Richard Dolan, and Stanton Friedman (and myself to a degree) in with this "scurvy bunch" who would bring ufology to its melodramatic "doom"... when the first worked closely with Allen Hynek and is much more connected than yourself, the second has written a cited and definitive history of 20th Century ufology lauded by J. Vallee, et al, and the third must surely come up with fleas if laying with dogs... Myself? Well, Just not one to be easily turned aside or discouraged by your very typically reflexive, denying, and intellectual constipation, Sir. I sneer at your explications. I decry your pontifications. I denounce your conjectures. You're not the solution... _you're_ the problem. >Only by somehow seperating disciplined Ufology from the >foolishness - Yes Sir, deny the kool-aid, yourself, or just get out of Dodge while there is still time... and for the good of the 'field'. I don't demand that you withdraw... just suggest that maybe you should. >and having the public, media, and scientific >community understand and recognize this seperation - does the >field have any hope. The shell-shocked "public" is controlled by the corporate "media," and the scientific community is tres reluctant to bite the corporate hand that feeds it, Sir. According to Micho Kaku - et al - the 'interest' you discount is _more_ than abundant... but that's right... you have your head all up and locked in a fantasy world of supposed causes and mistaken effects. Until you yourself, and others like you, are willing to look beyond mere symptoms to what's actually causing the disease... does the field have _any_ hope. >Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, >wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh part >of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting to >make ufology accepted and successful. Let me just close with a bunch of ebullient raspberries, and rude gestures. You've mistaken the problem, don't have a solution, and are no adept at prophesy. Take your ball and just go home. Everything you've said has been said before and discounted. Ironically, I suspect, _you're_ the chronic intellectual cancer of metaphor endured since 1947, Sir. You are, decidedly, not the cure, and your tedious ethic has not moved us a centimeter in 50 years. My best, and all respect, to Mr. Hall, who may yet be part of the conjectured 'cure' and who has paid abundant dues for same, regardless. He's produced the single work that is _all_ the excuse Mr. Frison's mythic science mainstream would need to begin a passionate investigation of UFOs... yet that investigation is _not_ forthcoming. Woo-woos are thoughtless
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:43:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:49:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gehrman >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, >wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh part >of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting to >make ufology accepted and successful. Eugene, Robert, List, These different persuasions have one common factor: The 'other'. Are there 'other' intelligent alien (outsider) life forms in our vicinity? We - ufology - can disagree about particulars, but we might agree that the 'other' exists. Then we might begin discussing the nature of the "other". Also, as Eleanor suggested, why not make a list of the discredited cases? "Acceptability" is the last thing we need and I don't even
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:42:04 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:51:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Frison >From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:09:08 +1000 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >But interpreting my last sentence as believing or propagating >unfounded speculation? Sorry, Robert, I wasn't interpreting your last sentence as _you_ believing/propagating unfounded speculation; I was referring to the elements in the field that we should be avoiding. I can clearly see from the earlier portion of your post that you believe in being objective and 'going on the evidence.' Didn't mean to give you the impression that I was interpreting your words to mean that you were one of the ones doing this. >As long as the media see us as quarreling amongst ourselves, >they wont take us seriously. I agree but I also think if the media sees us defining ourselves as seperate and sees us as trying to remain distinct from this other group - not "quarreling" - it will start to give us respect. We can define ourselves and become distinct from this component without _quarrelling_ with this component! As you said, if we fight and argue then we won't get anywhere at all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 25 Secrecy News -- 07/25/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:44:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:53:25 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/25/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 69 July 25, 2005 ** SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS NOT CONFIRMED, 1789-2004 ** WAR POWERS: DECIDING TO USE FORCE ABROAD ** THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF TRANSPARENCY ** BIOMETRIC ACCESS CONTROL AT US BASES IN IRAQ ** A GRAB BAG OF CRS REPORTS SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS NOT CONFIRMED, 1789-2004 "Of the 154 nominations to the U.S. Supreme Court between 1789 and 2004, 34 were not confirmed by the Senate," according to a recent study from the Congressional Research Service. See "Supreme Court Nominations Not Confirmed, 1789-2004," updated March 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31171.pdf Speaking of Supreme Court nominations, Secrecy News briefly captured the zeitgeist last week with our report on the role of former Reagan White House official "John Roberts" in the Iran-Contra affair (SN, 07/20/05). The initial report and the subsequent Secrecy News correction, which explained that the named individual was not the same person as Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts Jr., were deemed worthy of notice by the Washington Post (07/22/05) and then by Time Magazine (08/01/05). Thanks for reading. In both cases, however, the error should have been attributed to the publication, Secrecy News, rather than to the publisher, the Federation of American Scientists. WAR POWERS: DECIDING TO USE FORCE ABROAD The process of authorizing the decision to go to war is reexamined in a new report by a bipartisan commission which generally concludes that Congress must be more assertive in exercising its constitutionally mandated role. "Congress must perform its constitutional duty to reach a deliberate and transparent collective judgment about initiating the use of force abroad except when force is used for a limited range of defensive purposes." See "Deciding to Use Force Abroad: War Powers in a System of Checks and Balances," The Constitution Project, June 29, 2005: http://www.constitutionproject.org/wp/WarPowers_final.pdf Relatedly, see "War Powers Resolution: Presidential Compliance" from the Congressional Research Service, updated May 24, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB81050.pdf THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF TRANSPARENCY "What makes disclosure policies effective?" asks a recent academic study from Harvard University's Transparency Policy Project. "Based on a close examination of several prominent cases, we contend that effective transparency policies must possess two characteristics." "First, they must successfully embed new kinds of information into the everyday decision-making routines of various users [consumers]. Second, policies must embed information about user responses in the decision-making routines of disclosers." The meaning of this rather abstract conclusion is elaborated in "The Political Economy of Transparency" by Archon Fung, et al, John F. Kennedy School of Government, December 2004: http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP03-039 BIOMETRIC ACCESS CONTROL AT US BASES IN IRAQ In an effort to improve security at U.S. bases in Iraq, the Department of Defense has issued a new policy requiring the collection of various biometric data from non-U.S. persons who seek access to U.S. facilities there. "USCENTCOM personnel will collect biometrics, biographic, and other identifying information from non-screened, non-U.S. persons requesting access to U.S. bases and installations in Iraq," according to a July 15 DoD policy memorandum obtained by Secrecy News. "At a minimum, fingerprints, facial photos, and iris scans will be collected." "Data collected under this policy will be stored indefinitely in support of the War on Terrorism." See "DoD Policy for Biometric Information for Access to U.S. Installations and Facilities in Iraq," issued by (acting) Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England, July 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/biometric.pdf A GRAB BAG OF CRS REPORTS The Congressional Research Service does not make its publications directly available to the public. Some recent (or recently acquired) CRS reports obtained by Secrecy News include the following: "Nuclear Weapons: The Reliable Replacement Warhead Program," substantially updated July 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32929.pdf "India-U.S. Relations," updated July 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB93097.pdf "India: Chronology of Recent Events," updated July 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21589.pdf "Vieques and Culebra Islands: An Analysis of Cleanup Status and Costs," updated July 7, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32533.pdf "NASA's Space Shuttle Program: Issues for Congress Related to The Columbia Tragedy and 'Return to Flight'," updated June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/space/RS21408.pdf "Homeland Security: Navy Operations -- Background and Issues for Congress," updated June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RS21230.pdf "Navy Network-Centric Warfare Concept: Key Programs and Issues for Congress," updated May 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS20557.pdf "Homosexuals and U.S. Military Policy: Current Issues," updated May 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL30113.pdf "POWs and MIAs: Status and Accounting Issues," updated May 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB92101.pdf "North Korea's Nuclear Weapons: How Soon an Arsenal?," updated May 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RS21391.pdf "North Korea's Nuclear Weapons Program," updated May 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB91141.pdf "Gun Legislation in the 109th Congress," updated May 6, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf "Congressional Oversight Manual," October 21, 2004: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30240.pdf "Congressional Access to Executive Branch Information: Legislative Tools," May 17, 2001: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL30966.pdf "Presidential Claims of Executive Privilege: History, Law, Practice and Recent Developments," September 21, 1999: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RL30319.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:22:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:50:11 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military >>service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was >>never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present >>at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions >>of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to >>read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained >>information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities >>(EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the "EBE >>Guidebook" in 1979 and claims that it contained much information >>on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food >>requirements and medical information. >>The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the >>information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This >>has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now >>elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the >>physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs. >The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >Does anyone have any comments about this number? Sure Chris! It reminds me immediately of a movie about the McCarthy era communist witch-hunts of the early 1950s. Pressed for the number of reds in Congress (or whatever) McCarthy is portrayed as glancing at a Heinz Ketchup bottle and announcing "57 card carrying commies" or the like. I paraphrase and name of movie escapes me, but the number 57
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:56:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:55:55 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Hatch >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:48:56 EDT >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' <snip> >>I remind you both, that _no_ bodies were reported at any of >>the Roswell crash sites in 1947. Had any actually been >>discovered I find it inconceivable that such would not have been >>mentioned at the time. There were a number of people whose >>comments appear in the Roswell Daily Record for July 9, but none >>from anyone who saw, or knew about, any bodies. Nor at any time >>in the ensuing days, months or years. >As I recall Mac Brazil indicated (talking about the bodies) >something along the lines of 'they are not green...' Other >witnesses indicate that the bodies were packed up in crates and >flown out. Hi Robert: If in fact Brazel said the bodies 'were not green', doesn't that indicate a presumption that they _should_ be green? as in little green men? If so, then maybe it helps date the origins of the [cough] LGM moniker.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:58:44 -0400 Subject: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage Hi All, I have posted a Quicktime video-clip at the following URL that is derived from Graham Birdsall and Martyn Stubbs' documentary video, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions'. http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/MIR.html The footage is of the Russian MIR Space Station and was recorded by a Russian TV crew while filming a documentary of their own. Apparently 'something' or 'someone' was very interested in checking out the MIR space station that particular day. Note the 'double' radar targets on the tracking screen where there should only be one, the MIR. Begs the question, what, or who, is producing the second radar blip? It appears to be the large bright object (hovering at the MIR's 5 o'clock position) that is visible in the video as 'other' objects navigate to and fro around the station. You can acquire a complete copy of, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions' - from Amazon.com - by clicking this link: http://tinyurl.com/ccspl Please be patient when attempting to view the offering as it is a long download even with High Speed. Your patience will be amply rewarded. Bone chilling recording. Enjoy. If such a thing is possible with this stuff!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:56:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:00:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Shell >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >I, too, would like more information regarding this 'alien hair' >and also would like to know why they are calling it 'alien.' The >last I read about this case (World's Best UFO Cases, ed. Dwight >Connelly) seemed to indicate, based on the two types of DNA >found, that it was a human hair with rare Chinese-type DNA in >the hair shaft and indicating a rare possible Basque/Gaelic-type >DNA in the root section. Thank you for the brilliant explication, Eugene. You obviously know much more about this than I do from my peripheral involvement. Yes, I was only speaking of nuclear DNA. I read the report referenced earlier, and it appears that this hair was found under Khoury's foreskin. I would like to know
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:03:04 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:00:31 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >Too often individuals assume a >whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >discredited because they have not been able to adequately >respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >Corso.... >... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >files. This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to his military records. Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. The OCB (Operations Coordinating Board and its predecessor the Psychological Strategy Board) was not a part of the NSC any more than the CIA was a part of the NSC, though both agencies reported to the NSC. Does every CIA officer get to lie on his/her resume' and claim they were "NSC staff members" just because they worked for the CIA? I think not. The OCB merged with the NSC and became an NSC committee July 1, 1957, almost one year too late for Corso to claim credit as working "for the NSC." Here is an official National Archives history of the OCB: "OCB History: Established as an independent agency by EO 10483,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Bolt From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:06:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Bolt >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, >wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh >part of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting >to make ufology accepted and successful. Eugene and List I agree with you completely, until the seriously dedicated Ufologist distant themselves from those who's only interest in the field is for what profits and attention can be harvested from people such as myself who can afford barely an occasional book or ticket to attend a local convention, Ufology will never receive the acceptance it deserves. I will support the real deal Ufologist and can spot those who are snake oil salesmen. But stand together you will because until a Stanton Friedman, a Nick Pope, Dr. Maccabee, I would even give a thumbs up to George Filer if he produced a live Martian Wabbit (on a leash of course) can lay hold of a craft or living gray or reptilian from an off world planet and delivers it to the White house lawn for the world to see, main stream science and the media will continual to roll their eyes whenever UFOs are mentioned. To those who do the field work and research vast amounts of information to try reaching an understanding of the many reports cases, I would guess their investigations must become boring even to them after so many years of looking at blurry photographs and listening to the same'o same'o from witnesses and yarn spinners, after awhile the nut cases can be amusing to a tired Ufologist, heck I bet most Hoaxers and con men can come up with great stories to share over a few drinks, even when you know their full of the crud'ola you will force yourself to pretend to believe what he's saying after all he is a part of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:45:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:09:41 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Maccabee >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military >>service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was >>never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present >>at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions >>of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to .>read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained > >>information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities >>(EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the "EBE >>Guidebook" in 1979 and claims that it contained much information .>on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food >>requirements and medical information. >The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >Does anyone have any comments about this number?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:28:57 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:15:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Morton >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:43:04 -0700 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gehrman >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >>Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, >>wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh part >>of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting to >>make ufology accepted and successful. >Eugene, Robert, List, >These different persuasions have one common factor: >The 'other'. Are there 'other' intelligent alien (outsider) life >forms in our vicinity? >We - ufology - can disagree about particulars, but we might >agree that the 'other' exists. Then we might begin discussing >the nature of the "other". >Also, as Eleanor suggested, why not make a list of the >discredited cases? >"Acceptability" is the last thing we need and I don't even >understand why you feel it's important. What ufology could use >is a conference on cooperation strategies & consensus process. I think that making a list of the Discredited Cases (and Discredited Sources) would be an excellent idea. Mozart's catalog of works contains appendices (Anhangs) for works which are known to be wrongly attributed or doubtful, ie, partially or entirely discredited. There have been several versions of the catalog: K1 - 1862. Ludwig von Kochel. A massive project. K2 - Minor update. K3 - 1937. Alfred Einstein (Albert's cousin). K6 - 1964. Franz Giegling, Alexander Weinmann, Gerd Sievers. Der Neue Kochel - 2000. Neal Zaslaw (Cornell). Der Neue Mozart Ausgabe - The new Mozart catalog. Today, with the Internet, I suspect that the catalog is more of a living document, but I'm not sure. Works that are found to be spurious are moved into the appendix. Works that are confirmed as being by Mozart are moved out of the appendix and into the main section. Newly discovered works or fragments are put into a gray basket (deest) until moved into the main section or the appendix. In "Anhang C", the appendix for lost, doubtful, incomplete, arranged, and spurious works, there may be disagreement by experts. One expert believes the work to be authentic based on letters, newspaper announcements, etc. Another believes it to be spurious based on the dating of the manuscript paper. Another believes it might be authentic based on the style. Another believes it to be a forgery based on the handwriting. Another believes it to be by Mozart, but written down by his father (Leopold) - whose handwriting was very similar to Wolfgang's - when Mozart was young. Another thinks it's another composer's arrangement of a work by Mozart. Someone else thinks that another composer wrote the original, Mozart copied the music, but later wrote another version with improvements. Etc. At least every expert weighs in with thoughtful opinions and evidence. It's very confusing, but at least you know the piece is "doubtful" as listed, and why it's considered to be doubtful. And you know why the piece is not on the official list of pieces. I'm not sure who coordinates all of this, but there is an Institute in Salzburg called the Mozarteum which is a central authority and repository for most things Mozartian. Ufology could use something similar - especially for cases where there's no doubt that they've been completely discredited. Discredited sources should also be compiled, but in a separate listing. Similarly, a list of authenticated cases should be maintained. As a footnote, it should be mentioned that Mozart's music and character have sometimes suffered from forgeries and media presentations. Websites which correct those mis-impressions with an FAQ section are doing a real service to history. (For example, Salieri did not poison Mozart, Salieri did not help Mozart write the Requiem, Tom Hulce is not Mozart, Emperor Joseph II was not a musical dunce, Mozart was not a bumpkin new to the Court - he practically grew up around it, Mozart worked hard at his craft - he was not a FAX machine for Music-From- Heaven or an idiot savant, etc.). The movie Amadeus was full of inaccuracies and nonsense, but its authors defend it since it was fiction. Unfortunately, most people probably think it was real history, whereas much of it was fiction. Well-written FAQs on Mozart websites do help to correct those impressions. It's quite possible that ufology could use something similar to an FAQ to dispel the myths and erroneous impressions surrounding the UFO topic. Bruce Maccabee's article on U-2's as they relate to UFO reports is a good example, but an FAQ would need to run through multiple points, give a short answer, and point the reader to a longer article, if available. For example: 1. Q: The CIA says that over half the UFO reports between 19xx and 19xx were caused by sightings of U-2 spy planes. Is this true? A: No, and the CIA has not presented any evidence for this claim. With no evidence, in a situation where evidence should be available (as statistics from Project Blue Book and other sources), their claim can have no validity. If anything, UFO reports actually decreased after the U-2 became operational, during the hours the CIA claims U-2's were mistaken for UFOs. Such reports would also be of a rare, specific type: A tiny, silvery object at high altitude, moving slowly, at sunset or sunrise - probably viewed with binoculars. Blue Book reported a total of only xx such cases over that xx year period, out of xxx total cases during that period. See: http://brumac.8k.com/cia_explaination.html for more U-2/UFO information. And optionally, in the arena of abductions: 2. Q: Psychologists say that so-called alien abductions are nothing more than sleep hypnogognia. Aren't the abduction investigators ignoring this scientific explanation, and just leading their subjects into believing they were abducted? A: No. Hundreds of abductions have taken place in the daylight, when the subject was walking, driving a car, etc. In fact, most early reports of abductions were daylight abductions with the subjects wide awake. Sleep hypnogognia requires that the subjects be asleep. Since they weren't asleep, the explanation of sleep hypnogognia is not possible, and there must be some other explanation for their memories, dreams, fears, insomnia, scars, and bruises. Reports of possible alien abductions and detailed procedures performed by aliens initially come from the subjects themselves via letters, phone calls, e-mails, and personal contact - not from the investigators. Therefore, the abductees lead the investigators in their research, not the other way around. Etc, etc. These are just examples - I haven't checked the facts for precision, but they should be reasonably close to the truth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Shurinov From: Boris Shurinov <borisshurinov.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:56:25 +0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:17:13 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Shurinov "The EBE guidebook describing 57 groups that might be encountered at any UFO crash retrieval location" is one of the best "scientific" gifts to our opponents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Burke From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:23:35 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Burke >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook (Discussing material from Michael Salla) >>The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the >>information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This >>has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now >>elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the >>physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs. >The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >Does anyone have any comments about this number? Chris, The use of the number 57 in this context is reminiscent of the McCarthy-era claim by a prominent paranoid (whose identity I can't recall) that there were 57 Communists in the House of Congress and that this was advertised by the fact that the Heinz Ketchup bottle (which was RED) had a big number 57 on it. I've read Salla's current revision of his July 26, 2004 report on this subject. I found precious few attributions to material offered by Mr. Stone and a sickening amount of discredited material instead. Take for example, Salla's remarks about the man we all know as The One-Armed Hubcap Tosser, Billy Meier: "One of the first 'contactees' to describe Lyra was Billy Meier who received much public attention as a result of his alleged visits from Pleiadians/Plejarans from 1975 to 1986 which he supported with material evidence that continues to confound those skeptical of Meier's claims. Comprehensive investigations by a number of individuals and organizations found that Meier's evidence was not fabricated and therefore constituted significant support for his testimony of extraterrestrial contact. Due to the amount of physical evidence he had provided over the years, Meier has gained great credibility, and the consistency and coherence of his testimonies suggest that he is indeed an important spokesperson for an extraterrestrial race." Dr. Bruce Maccabee once wrote an article in the (CUFOS) International UFO Reporter called, The Pendulum From The Pleiades. In that article he demonstrated how the 'UFO' in a Meier movie was actually a pendulum on a string. He even calculated the length of the string used to suspend the 'UFO' in the movie. To assert, as Salla does, that Meier's claims have withstood serious investigation, is uninformed at best and disingenuous at worst. Add to this the fact that there is a severe paucity of information attributed to Clifford Stone in this report and the sense of smell immediately kicks in.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:41:32 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:52:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:56:23 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case ><snip> >>I, too, would like more information regarding this 'alien hair' >>and also would like to know why they are calling it 'alien.' The >>last I read about this case (World's Best UFO Cases, ed. Dwight >>Connelly) seemed to indicate, based on the two types of DNA >>found, that it was a human hair with rare Chinese-type DNA in >>the hair shaft and indicating a rare possible Basque/Gaelic-type >>DNA in the root section. >Thank you for the brilliant explication, Eugene. You obviously >know much more about this than I do from my peripheral >involvement. Yes, I was only speaking of nuclear DNA. >I read the report referenced earlier, and it appears that this >hair was found under Khoury's foreskin. I would like to know >what was done to separate Khoury's probable DNA contribution to >the sample from that of the sample itself. Bob, I agree that Eugene provided a good elaboration of the issues re. hair. The mitochondrial DNA study we undertook involved an evaluation of how the extracted DNA compared to the human consensus in terms of variations over the hypervariable region. If you read the experimental method outlined in the, Strange Evidence report, this issue of contamination was commented upon. The external aspects of the sample were checked as part of the evaluation of the washing step and this was checked against control samples which included Peter Khoury's DNA. If his DNA had contributed to the DNA extracted from the hair shaft itself, rather than just the external part of the hair shaft it would have been easily reconciled with reference to our controls. While I am happy to keep answering issues point by point it might be easier if you are able to examine the full detail of the reports closely.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 26 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:31:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>Most people don't know it, but you can't get usable DNA for >>analysis from hair. Unless the hair has been yanked out by the >>roots and still has follicles attached, there is no DNA present. >>And the DNA in the follicles tends to decay with time. >Hi Bob: >I have training in Criminalistics and can perhaps shed some >light on the nature of hair samples. >Mitochondrial DNA testing is much more sensitive than nuclear >DNA testing but is also more rigorous, tedious, time-consuming, >and more expensive. Nuclear DNA is composed of a linear strand >of nucleotides (A, T, G, Cs) while mtDNA is a circular loop that >contains approximately 16,500+ A, T, G, and Cs that make up 37 >genes used in energy production. Two regions of the mtDNA are >highly varible in the human population and these regions >(Hypervariable Region I - HV1 and Hypervariable Region II - HV2) >must have many copies of them generated by PCR (Polymerase Chain >Reaction) so that the order of the A-T-C-G bases constituting >the hypervariable regions can be determined (sequencing). >Thus, it is very possible to get useful DNA information from >hair even if the hair has not been forcibly removed, or does not >possess the follicular tag, if one has access to the relatively >few laboratories that can handle this type of DNA analysis. >I, too, would like more information regarding this 'alien hair' >and also would like to know why they are calling it 'alien.' The >last I read about this case (World's Best UFO Cases, ed. Dwight >Connelly) seemed to indicate, based on the two types of DNA >found, that it was a human hair with rare Chinese-type DNA in >the hair shaft and indicating a rare possible Basque/Gaelic-type >DNA in the root section. Eugene, Thank you for your good exposition on these hair DNA matters. It saved me doing this. As you highlight, we also undertook our mitochondrial DNA evlauations referenced to the hypervariable regions. In terms of the "alien" label. The full range of DNA anomalies suggests it would be extremely difficult to find someone who might yield such an array of results. If you have any suggestions let me know. The rare Asian mongoloid mito DNA from the blonde hair shaft, the rare Basque Gaelic DNA as well, along with the suggestion of CCR5 delition factor, all make for an unusual donor. That in inself is not proof of it being from an alien. However, context is also important here, namely the event itself - the strange appearance - the enlongated face, angular in nature and the very large eyes. Again not absolute proof, but intriguing. The blonde's appearance also is rather similar to the female reported in the Antonio Villas-Boas case. I am aware that the AVB case is subject to claims it was part of a US psy-ops event, but the evidence for this, as far as I can determine, is not very well established. Khoury's blonde and the "Asian" woman, both appeared inside a locked house and then disappeared just as suddenly. All of these elements suggest in my opinion that a tenative "alien" label is not unreasonable. You are free to disagree, but such labelling, no matter how tenative on my part, is not the main point as far as I am concern. The Khoury case is a case study which I feel strongly argues that the DNA forensic scientific approach can be a powerful tool in examining abduction cases. It is after all only one case. I would be much more comfortable if there were many such cases for examination, which might allow confirmation or no confirmation of the DNA data. However it is a start. We have examined another 4 cases, but none are as compelling as the Khoury case in terms of the DNA results, context, and chain of evidence. What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:31:52 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:06:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:58:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:22:34 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:40:43 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case ><snip> >>>I know nothing at all about this Australian case, so it would be >>>useful if someone would post some actual information here rather >>>than just attempting to sell us a book. Was the hair supposed to >>>have been forcefully pulled from these "females"? Did it have >>>intact hair follicles? Or was it simply strands of blonde hair? >>>If the latter is the case, electron microscope analysis would be >>>appropriate, and could easily determine if the hair was >>>human/anthropoid or something else. >>We did have a hair strand with hair root/follicle and this >>aspect became the subject of our Phase two study. >>We intentionally initially focused on the shaft, as this could >>be replicated, which we did in Phase 2. >>The root part however was going to be a one off therefore we >>delayed doing that. >>The results of that work have been summarised on my site for >>some time, reported in summary form again in recent and current >>articles in the International Reporter, the MUFON UFO Journal, >>and the Australasian Ufologist, but is now reported fully in my >>book, Hair Of The Alien. >Hi Bill, >You wrote: >>Sorry for the plug again. >>However in the book I have gone to some trouble to give both a >>simple presentation of the science and also the full methodology >>in the appendix for those who wish those details. I encourage >>you to read about the case, particularly in its detailed form. >>I look forward to hearing from you when you have acquainted >>yourself with the detail of the work. >No need to apologise. Last week I mentioned you and the Koury >case in a post to this List. I believe it was Bob Frola that >'picked up the ball' and started this thread. I'm glad to see >you here. >I hope that people take the time to familiarize themselves with >the details of this case. Everyone is always (rightfully,) >asking for hard evidence for reports of UFO/alien abduction. It >is my very humble opinion that the DNA evidence that has >surfaced in this case, is the long sought after/awaited, >'smoking gun' evidence for alien abduction. >I look forward to any and all future news/developments in this >case and I hope you will keep us all 'UpDated' via the List. >Keep up the great work, Bill. There's an awful lot riding on the >work you are doing. I wish you Godspeed in all your endeavors >pertaining to this case. >Maybe one day, between the ground trace evidence, the >photographic documentation record of the marks and scars that >abductees sustain during the 'abductions', the stained clothing >in David Jacobs' possession, the results of the many tests >abductees have taken whose results consistently, clearly and >repeatedly show we are not crazy or lying, in addition to the >test results of the DNA evidence you have gathered, will, when >viewed as a whole, make a very compelling case for the physical >reality of UFO/alien abduction that many of us have been >reporting. >Between you. me and the walls, I can't wait for the day. I have >several large black crows ready to be baked into pies and mailed >to a few very carefully chosen individuals. Not all of em I'm >sure, but 'some' will feel horrible for the way they have >treated us and thought of us. :) >Again, best of luck in your work, Bill. Hi John, Thank you for your positive comments. While I would like to think the Khoury DNA evidence is "the smoking gun", it is not that yet. If the data can be replicated in multiple samples from multiple cases, then perhaps we can be more confident in making such assertions. However it is only one sample. Certainty, one way or the other, alien or not alien, will come from further evidence of this kind emerging from other cases. Therefore I hope that by putting "Hair of the Alien" out there for consideration it will alert abductees, researchers, investigators and the general public, to the potential of the DNA forensic and scientific approach. Getting evidence of this type will help us all get to the bottom of the alien reality question. For some of course there is no question. Abductees experience this reality and have a conviction driven by the realities they interact with. Skeptics reject the evidence, but perhaps the approach I am advocating will help add weight to the "critical mass" of compelling evidence. Your comments and your situation are the reason why I dedicate "Hair of the Alien" in the following way: "To all those who have been touched by the alien abduction phenomenon, I hope this work will help anchor your journey in reality, whatever that reality turns out to be."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Heinz 57 & McCarthy [was: An Interview With From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:26:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:09:49 -0400 Subject: Heinz 57 & McCarthy [was: An Interview With >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:45:34 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >>Does anyone have any comments about this number? >Heinz' 57 Varieties - soup and canned products? >Provided Joe McCarthy with an initial number of Commies in the >State Department Congress - leading to the Army-McCarthy >hearings in 1954 or thereabouts. Dr. Bruce...(and Larry Hatch) You are mistaken... The reference to Heinz 57 was in the movie The Manchurian Candidate which was a metaphor for the McCarthy era. Senator McCarthy posited 91 members of the Communist Party in the State Department, which had nothing to do with the Army- McCarthy hearings which took place three years after Joe McCarthy's accusation, which has turned out to be true according
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:26:10 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:17:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Friedman >From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:48:19 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:18 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War >>>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War ><snip> >>Standing collectively with the con men, frauds, psychotics, >>wild-eyed believers, channellers, etc. that comprise a hugh >>part of this field is the worst possible approach in attempting >>to make ufology accepted and successful. >I agree with you completely, until the seriously dedicated >Ufologist distant themselves from those who's only interest in >the field is for what profits and attention can be harvested >from people such as myself who can afford barely an occasional >book or ticket to attend a local convention, Ufology will never >receive the acceptance it deserves. I will support the real deal >Ufologist and can spot those who are snake oil salesmen. >But stand together you will because until a Stanton Friedman, a >Nick Pope, Dr. Maccabee, I would even give a thumbs up to George >Filer if he produced a live Martian Wabbit (on a leash of >course) can lay hold of a craft or living gray or reptilian from >an off world planet and delivers it to the White house lawn for >the world to see, main stream science and the media will >continual to roll their eyes whenever UFOs are mentioned. >To those who do the field work and research vast amounts of >information to try reaching an understanding of the many reports >cases, I would guess their investigations must become boring >even to them after so many years of looking at blurry >photographs and listening to the same'o same'o from witnesses >and yarn spinners, after awhile the nut cases can be amusing to >a tired Ufologist, heck I bet most Hoaxers and con men can come >up with great stories to share over a few drinks, even when you >know their full of the crud'ola you will force yourself to >pretend to believe what he's saying after all he is a part of >Ufology >And I will continue to read UFO UpDates hoping some day one of >you will blow the lid off and deliver what we all know is out >there watching us... do you think they find us amusing? I cannot share the view that all or most main stream media rolls its eyes at UFOs. In Denver, Sunday Morning, Channel 4 news treated Rich Dolan and I with complete fairness and not a hint of ridicule. Previously a local paper had a fine article about John Schuessler. What I found in Pittsburgh 35 years ago, in LA after that, etc is that one can get decent media coverage if one is patient, knowledgeable and honest and understands how the media operates. The problem comes more from many good guys being apologist ufologists or closet ufologists than from us loud guys speaking out. Sure, as Truman said, "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". The public is interested.The vacuous will rush in to fill the vacuum if the good guys are unwilling to stand up. I repeat that in over 700 lectures to college and professional audiences,I have had only 11 hecklers. Many of these were groups like the Engineering Societies of Detroit, of Baltimore, of Cincinnati; sections of the AIAA, IEEE, ANS.. even a conference of Canadian Newspaper Editors.. Remember that the polls show the greater the education, the more likely to accept flying saucer reality . Dr. Hynek seemed to start all his lectures with an apology for speaking out. That didn't help the attendees' perception of what the world thinks, but perpetuated
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:21:37 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Warren >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>Too often individuals assume a >>whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >>prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >>discredited because they have not been able to adequately >>respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >>pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >>Corso.... >>... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >>as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >>in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >>clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >>the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >>files. >This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >his military records. >Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. >snip< Brad, Et AL, The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: "Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:26:34 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Clark >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:22:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >>Does anyone have any comments about this number? >It reminds me immediately of a movie about the McCarthy era >communist witch-hunts of the early 1950s. Pressed for the number >of reds in Congress (or whatever) McCarthy is portrayed as >glancing at a Heinz Ketchup bottle and announcing "57 card >carrying commies" or the like. There is some lingering controversy about which number McCarthy used. On February 9, 1950, when he spoke at Wheeling, West Virginia, a local radio station taped, but soon erased, the speech. The station reported that McCarthy had said there were 205 Communists in the State Department (_not_ the Congress). He did not make up this number; it came from a list (outdated by the time McCarthy made use of it) prepared in August 1946 by Truman's Secretary of State James Byrnes of persons who had been recommended for termination within the department, which had been (indisputably) infiltrated by Soviet spies in the '30s and during World War II. (Alger Hiss is the most famous, though not the only, example.) Owing apparently to confusion, many press accounts from the period reported that McCarthy had said 57, not 205, at Wheeling. >I paraphrase and name of movie escapes me, but the number 57 >is/was clearly shown on the bottle. Heinz trademark was indeed >"57 varieties". This suggests a leg-pull to me. The next two days, in speeches in Salt Lake City and Reno, McCarthy cited the 57 figure. The number came not from a Heinz bottle but from a 1948 report of the House Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Department. None of this is to defend McCarthy, a vile and destructive figure whose descendants continue to poison American politics
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> <exopolitics@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:06:06 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:04:11 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:22:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>Sgt Stone claimed in the interview that during his military >>>service he was monitored by an individual whose rank he was >>>never told but whom he called 'Colonel'. The Colonel was present >>>at UFO crash retrieval locations and led the debriefing sessions >>>of Sgt Stone. Sgt Stone claims that the Colonel allowed him to >>>read a three inch thick notebook manual that contained >>>information on 57 types of extraterrestrial biological entities >>>(EBEs) known to the military. Sgt Stone first saw the "EBE >>>Guidebook" in 1979 and claims that it contained much information >>>on each of group of EBEs in terms of their physiology, food >>>requirements and medical information. >>>The most remarkable aspect of my July 19 interview is the >>>information Sgt Stone claimed existed in the EBE Guidebook. This >>>has very important exopolitical significance that I wish to now >>>elaborate upon. The alleged EBE Guidebook describes the >>>physiological characteristics of 57 types of EBEs. >>The "most remarkable aspect" to me is the 57 varieties of EBE. >>Does anyone have any comments about this number? >Sure Chris! >It reminds me immediately of a movie about the McCarthy era >communist witch-hunts of the early 1950s. Pressed for the number >of reds in Congress (or whatever) McCarthy is portrayed as >glancing at a Heinz Ketchup bottle and announcing "57 card >carrying commies" or the like. >I paraphrase and name of movie escapes me, but the number 57 >is/was clearly shown on the bottle. Heinz trademark was indeed >"57 varieties". This suggests a leg-pull to me. Aloha Larry, In the interview, Clifford Stone said the EBE Guidebook was affectionately known as the Heinz 57. If Stone is accurate in his claim of having served on UFO crash retrieval teams and of being given access to the guidebook by his handler for ten years between 1979 and 1989, then this shows that the 'exobiologists' who prepared the guide (approx 1500 words) both had an extensive knowledge of EBE physiology and a sense of humor.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais From: Brad Sparks <>B47x.nul Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:13:22 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:55:45 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Bourdais Errol, Gildas has been having trouble getting this message to you without the format getting mangled between servers. Regards, Brad ----- >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:48:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:01 +0200 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Gildas and Listfolk: >>The first Gallup Poll on the subject, >>released on August 14, 1947 ("now that the uproar over the >>'flying saucers' has subsided"), uncovered so few respondents >>mentioning ET explanations that they went unlisted in the >>results. <snip> >The idea of UFOs as ET visitors blossomed in the 1950s, for a >number of reasons that are too complicated to go into here. It >is certain, however, that a week after Kenneth Arnold's >sighting, military investigators operated without our modern >ideas of what a flying disc is supposed to be; they would not >have thought automatically of a spaceship when they were sent >out to a debris field where an unidentified aerial vehicle had >crashed. If anything, they would have expected to find something >secret and earthly. >Whether one agrees or disagrees with the direction Nick Redfern >takes his interpretation from there, on this one point I don't >think there can be serious disagreement. The historical record >could hardly be clearer. I urge you to read my previously cited >paper on this subject. Jerry and All, I have re-read your chapter "The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis in the Early UFO age", in the book "UFOs and Abductions". I find it very interesting, but not completely convincing. First of all, it seems to me, we must separate two questions : what the people could think of those "flying saucers", and what the military could think, especially the authors of the Roswell press release. Let's consider first the military. One document of the period which comes to mind is the famous letter of July 9, 1947, of Brig. Gen. George Schulgen, Chief of the Air Intelligence Requirements Division, to the FBI, requiring its help. Let's quote the comments of Bruce Maccabee in his book "UFO FBI Connection" (2000) : "Schulgen said that the research "is being conducted with the thought that the flying objects might be a celestial phenomenon, and with the view that they might be a foreign body mechanically devised and controlled". In other words, the craft might have a foreign origin (that is, from Russia) or a _ celestial origin _." Another important statement in that letter is: "General Schulgen assured M. (name blacked) that there are no War Department or Navy Department research projects presently being conducted which could in any way be tied up with the flying disks". Before this letter, there was already a long list of sightings, some of them very spectacular, including sightings by military pilots. I suppose I don't need to give their list. It is interesting to note also that this rather urgent demand came right after the rebuttal of the Roswell press release, which was at the start of an intense campaign of public debunking of UFOs, as reported in the press itself. For instance, the Las Vegas Review-Journal of July 9 announced that "Flying Disc Tales Decline As Army, Navy crack down" (seen in Jan Aldrich, "Project 1947: A Preliminary Report", 1997). We know that the interest of the Air Force did not subside in the following days and months. For instance, there is another FBI memo of Mr Ladd, of August 14, commenting on the inquiries made by the Air Force agents who interviewed a number of experienced pilots : "In order to determine the purpose of these interviews, Richards (aviation editor of the "Oregonian") contacted Major General Twining of Wright Field, Ohio, and from him gained the impression that the AAF instituted this investigation to wash out the disc reports since they are definitely not of AAF origin". But we know the opinion of General Twining, in his famous letter of Sept 23, 1947. His precise description of the flying disks was preceded by a similar description in document of July 30. BTW, his question as to the possible domestic origin of the disks (point h of the letter) is invalidated by the Schulgen letter of July 9, and his letter of Sept. 5 sent directly to the Director of the FBI ! What comes out of all this is, on one hand a public campaign of debunking, and on the other hand an active policy of collection of information on UFOs, with the extraterrestrial hypothesis duly considered in high military circles. Now, what could be the public opinion on flying disks ? You say that the Gallup poll of August 14 proved that nobody believed in flying saucers as possible "space ships", so that the question was not even mentioned. Not mentioned in the results, or not asked ? That's not completely clear to me. But anyway, what is very clear is that the poll arrived after a good month of intense debunking in the press. We know how the public opinion can be manipulated, especially at a time when the public had great confidence in the government and the military. I just wish to add that, yes, the ideas of space travel and alien visitors were very popular, at least since the thirties, in the United States, as demonstrated by the agreat bundance of magazines devoted to the subject. So, I just cannot believe that nobody, or almost nobody, would have had any such idea regarding
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:54:22 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:56:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Balaskas >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:07 -0400 >Subject: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage <snip> >I have posted a Quicktime video-clip at the following URL that >is derived from Graham Birdsall and Martyn Stubbs' documentary >video, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions'. >http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/MIR.html >The footage is of the Russian MIR Space Station and was recorded >by a Russian TV crew while filming a documentary of their own. >Apparently 'something' or 'someone' was very interested in >checking out the MIR space station that particular day. Note the >'double' radar targets on the tracking screen where there should >only be one, the MIR. >Begs the question, what, or who, is producing the second radar >blip? It appears to be the large bright object (hovering at the >MIR's 5 o'clock position) that is visible in the video as >'other' objects navigate to and fro around the station. <snip> Greetings John! The "second radar blip" is the U.S. Space Shuttle Atlantis after it undocked from the Russian Mir Space Station (November 18, 1995) and photographed it from space. You can see many such tiny "UFOs" on other videos after the space shuttle has separated from the space station or opened its cargo bay doors for the first time while in orbit. Those tiny flashing UFOs are just irregular shaped debris particles tumbling in space (not likely UFOs out of control or piloted by drunk ETs) caught in the bright sunlight. No bone chilling stuff here. Fellow Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield was on this shuttle (mission STS-74) which visited Mir. He did not notice anything strange and unexplained during this space flight - at least anything he cared to share with us. As for strange objects or UFOs recorded on video in space by astronauts that remain unexplained, there are a few. My favourite is the undulating seven foot long "snake" that astronaut F. Story Musgrave saw on several shuttle flights and photogrpahed twice! There certainly are lots of strange things in space. One of many such UFOs in space which I am currently examining further together with others on the UFO UpDates list is the black triangular shaped UFO that was photographed during space shuttle mission STS-61C. A picture of this "UFO" with the Earth in the background appears in the July/August 2005 issue of 'Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists' (p. 33) which is available at many public libraries. The caption below the picture
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:52:25 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:00:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:54:43 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>Another observation. A balloon towing/lifting a big flying wing >>[which is unstable to begin with] type glider would have been >>extremely unwieldy and each of the two componants-the balloon >>lifting and the glider wing trying to fly would have fought one >>another from the point of take off and likely wouldn't have made >>it a couple of hundred yards. >> <snip> >And the reason why there was so much secrecy in the recovery of >the balloon array (which wouldn't have been necessary if the >aircraft had detached correctly) was because part of the outer >coating of the aircraft was ripped away when the two components >did separate, and that coating came down on the Foster Ranch, as >did one body. What was supposed to have been so important about this outer coating. The plywood was impregnated with carbon to absorb radar [of the day] on the Horten Ho 229. But it would not have noteworthy to the causal eye or even an experienced eye. It would have appeared as a gray colored paint over ply. Certainly a/c plywood was not secret material. It had been around since the First World War, albeit not as strong and lightweight as its WWII counterpart. Could this mysterious material have been the re-inforced seamed cellophane or neoprene used for the Mogul balloons in circa 1947. Plastic envelopes weren't used until Otto Winzen [having left General Mills] produced the first viable polyethelyne balloons for the USN's Skyhooks in 1950. This makes me wonder about some other Skyhook claims as well. >Therefore, if in a worst case scenario someone found the >balloon debris (as Brazel did), then the military realized that >there was a chance of finding this other material (the coating >and the remaining body), hence the stringent security at the >ranch. A body I could understand if it was mutilated and possibly Japanese but there should have been no reason for it to have been burned if that is one of the reasons wht it looked "alien". >If Brazel had just found balloon debris, there would be no >storm because there was nothing controversial about the >balloons. But the unfortunate fact that Brzael stumbled upon the >other things too, is what led to the clampdown at the ranch. Can you be more specific about the other things, or must I purchase the book? I understand if you don't want to give everything out on these Lsts. >>>The nuclear pile? What happened to that. >>>How many times can I say this? As I >>>explain in the book, there is _no_ "nuclear pile" and _no_ >>>nuclear angle of any sort to the crash at Roswell. >That does >>>not appear _anywhere_ at all in my book. You are confusing this >>>with other experiments cited in the book that occurred in New >>>Mexico in mid-1947 that were nuclear related. My mistake. Sorry. >The Roswell event - according to the interviewees -involved >nothing beyond a huge balloon array, a glider, and a trained >crew to fly it. A glider - no nuclear component to a >straightforward glider. The V1 version [not to be confused with the "Doodlebug" or "Buzzbomb"] of the Horten Ho 229 did crash.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:18:33 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:03:29 -0400 Subject: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>Too often individuals assume a >>whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >>prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >>discredited because they have not been able to adequately >>respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >>pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >>Corso.... >>... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >>as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >>in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >>clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >>the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >>files. >This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >his military records. According to Corso's DA 66, he was assigned to the Psychological Strategy Board from 26 August, 1953 to Feb 1954. While the Psychological Strategy Board (PSB) was physically located within the Department of State, it was institutionally affiliated with the NSC as was its successor the Operations Coordinating Board. Both had the express role of reporting to and executing decisions made by the NSC. According to the Presidential Directive of April 4, 1951, that created the PSB it was "to authorize and provide for the more effective planning, coordination, and conduct within the framework of approved national policies, of psychological operations." Here's more on the PSB: The PSB was composed of the Undersecretary of State, the Deputy Secretary of Defense and the Director of Central Intelligence, or their designated representatives. The founding Presidential Directive instructed the PSB to report to the National Security Council "on the Board's activities on the evaluation of the national psychological operations, including implementation of approved objectives, policies, and programs by the departments and agencies concerned." http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Psychological_Strateg y_Board Corso claims that he was assigned to the PSB by Trudeau to represent Army interests. Something Corso was eminently qualified to do as a result of his counter intelligence background. I think it also worthwhile pointing to another intriguing aspect of the history of PSB. According to one of the leaked Majestic Documents, "Majestic Twelve Project, 1st Annual Report" (in Robert and Ryan Woods, Majestic Documents, p. 10) the Psychological Strategy Board was created by President Eisenhower after recommendation by MAJCOM-1 - the head of the Majestic Committee formally established by President Truman's classified memo on Sept 24, 1947. This indicates that the Psychological Strategy Board was created for dealing with aspects of UFO/ETH related issues that required an interagency committee competent to deal with a broad range of issues that required input from Army Intelligence. While I know some contest the authenticity of the Majestic Documents, I bring this up since Corso's role in UFO and ET technologies is something that is at the heart of our interest in him on this forum, and it may not be much of a surprise that he was assigned to a committee that secretly had this as part of its mandate. >Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. >The OCB (Operations Coordinating Board and its predecessor the >Psychological Strategy Board) was not a part of the NSC any >more than the CIA was a part of the NSC, though both agencies >reported to the NSC. Does every CIA officer get to lie on his/her >resume' and claim they were "NSC staff members" just because >they worked for the CIA? I think not. This is incorrect. This is what the FBI in a Memorandum dated 2- 11-65 says about Corso's activities during 1955 furor over the conflict between Corso's superior at Military Intelligence (G- 2), Lt Gen Arther Trudeau and DCI Allen Dulles: "Colonel Philip Corso, then assigned to the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB), National Security Council." http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/pjcorso.htm Clearly the FBI correctly established that Corso served on the OCB and that it was institutionally part of the NSC, not an independent agency as you claim back in 1955. >The OCB merged with the NSC and became an NSC committee July 1, >1957, almost one year too late for Corso to claim credit as >working "for the NSC." >Here is an official National Archives history of the OCB: >"OCB History: Established as an independent agency by EO 10483, >September 2, 1953, to report to the NSC on the development, by >appropriate Executive branch agencies, of operational plans for >national security policies of international import. Incorporated >into the NSC, effective July 1, 1957, by EO 10700, February 25, >1957. Abolished by EO 10920, February 18, 1961." This is quite a stretch on your part. What do you mean the "OCB merged with the NSC" in 1957 and only became part of it then? Clearly the functions described by EO 10483 made the OCB an executive arm of the NSC during Corso's assignment there from 1953-56. To illustrate, here's something from the historical record concerning the OCB functions and its relationship with the NSC: "The agenda included regular briefings by the Director of Central Intelligence on worldwide developments affecting U.S. security, and consideration of the policy papers advanced by the Planning Board. The upshot of the discussions were recommendations to the President in the form of NSC Actions. The President, who participated in the discussion, normally endorsed the NSC Action, and the decision went down the hill for implementation to the Operations Coordinating Board." http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/NSChistory.htm#Eisenhower So not only did the OCB report to the NSC as established by the Executive Order creating it, it also was responsible for implementing decisions by the NSC. While the OCB may have only been 'informally' part of the NSC without being formally incorporated into the NSC until the 1957 EO you identify, this doesn't disqualify those who served prior to 1957 as legitimately claiming to have served on the NSC. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck." Certainly the FBI was not fooled in its assessment of the Corso being assigned to the OCB, National Security Council. I find your objections to Corso's assignment to the NSC to be an exercize in sophistry that distracts from the core issues. Lt Col Corso served on both the PSB and the OCB both of which were a powerful NSC committee that had a broad mandate over a range of interagency issues that may well have have included UFOs and suppression of the truth regarding the ETH.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:05:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have been arguing for this exact approach (see the section 'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, 2004). Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. I don't think the intelligence behind the phenomenon enters and leaves the point of interaction while completely violating Locard's principle. Clearly, if the Khoury case is legitimate, it doesn't. This case may be showing us that the intelligence behind the phenomenon, despite its sophistication, is subject to Locard's Exchange Principle and does contaminate the scene, although in most cases the contamination is not as obvious as a hair wrapped in the foreskin of the person at the center of the event. If we are waiting to secure evidence in the nature of a 'jacket' inadvertently left on the bed or an anal probe accidently left on the nightstand then I think we're going to be waiting forever. Using available forensic technology and techniques to detect the perhaps minute cross-contamination of the scene that may be occurring could possibly secure enough evidence to show something is really happening - even if detectable cross- contamination occurs in only a percentage of cases. (It probably occurs in all cases but often could be beyond our current abilities to detect.) I concur as well that the label is not the important point but I do get uneasy with the label 'alien' as this has strong connotations of 'extraterrestrial' in this field, despite the fact that the word can refer to human beings, as in 'illegal alien' being used to describe a person in a country without authorization. Without a doubt, the 'hair' is fascinating, intriguing, and anomalous. But I think it can just as easily belong to one of a number of human beings who are part of an older civilization evolved on Earth; human civilization may be older than we think. That is not to say ET is not involved in the UFO mystery, only that ET may be communicating with an older human group on this planet. We may wonder why UFO's haven't communicated with us after all this time after coming all this distance but they may indeed be communicating with humans all this time, just not our 'modern group of civilizations.' They may think the modern groups are too violent or not progressed enough for full, open communication yet but have had (and maintain) a long-term, ongoing relationship with certain inhabitants of our planet. These two groups working together could also explain why abductees have noticed humans among the so-called aliens during their episodes of interaction with the UFO intelligence. The conspiracy theories saying our governments are secretly in cohoots with the aliens might be a wrong explanation of why human beings and alleged ETs are seen together during abduction episodes. The above are meant only as possible alternatives to the 'alien' label and not be to construed as being part of my position on UFOs. Nothing has been proven yet so I'm kind of uncomfortable with labelling the hair as 'alien' especially when it seems to have such strong human characteristics, and explanations other than 'alien' (if by 'alien' it is meant as in extraterrestrial) have not been ruled out. I observed my first UFO more than thirty years ago, when my mother was fortunate enough to peer inside, for an extended period of time, a domed-disk at eye level from less than six feet away. Even after more than thirty years of looking into this mystery, I can honestly say I don't have my mind made up on anything and am still confused as to what it was we saw that night. Any subjective, personal thoughts or feelings explaining it to myself have long dissolved, because if you stay objective then you have to admit that we haven'y solved it yet. Thus, I am not sure we should be calling 'the hair' alien, especially when this word smacks so strongly of ET. But I completely agree with you in that the label is not the important issue - the strange characteristics of the hair and the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:32 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:06:34 -0400 Subject: Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? List, All - I have been looking for some additional information about this officer but have been unable to locate much. Can anyone update me about him.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:41:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:08:02 -0400 Subject: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore The Exopolitics movement developing within ufology is an interesting cultural event, one that I think is akin to many cult like movements. Since the 1980s, a storyline has been developing regarding the nature of the government's involvement with UFOs. Basicly, that story entails the government operating in a very deep covert way to get all it can from "aliens" it has developed some sort of quid pro quo relationship with. These "aliens" are deemed to be bad guys and the covert governmental players associated with them are judged to be somewhat dark forces who desire to hold back the "evolution" of our culture. Exopolitical analysts identify not only "demons" in this story. There are also, they say, the good guys who desire to serve our growth, our evolution. (This is largely based on channeled information and the "reports" of contactees.) There's a peculiar dynamic here. One I just discovered (sadly) in posts by Ed Komarek at this list, dating from the spring of 1997. He came here to initiate a campaign to "stop" Kent Jeffries from presenting his changed views on Roswell! He also attacked Kal Korff for his views on Roswell. He now proposes at his blog working with "good guys" (or, "celestial humans) at his blog: http://exopolitics.blogspot.com He still apparently proposes (in his writings there) the existence of "black hat" operators working at odds to our benefit. My point is that Exopolitical analysts are presenting us with a classic story of good guys vs. bad guys based on a developing folklore over the last two decades. A folklore based on "whistleblowers" and "contactees". This, IMO, is setting the stage for quite an interesting movement. One that I think is based on a lot of delusional
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:08:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:10:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Jamieson >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >In terms of the "alien" label. The full range of DNA anomalies >suggests it would be extremely difficult to find someone who >might yield such an array of results. If you have any >suggestions let me know. The rare Asian mongoloid mito DNA from >the blonde hair shaft, the rare Basque Gaelic DNA as well, along >with the suggestion of CCR5 delition factor, all make for an >unusual donor. This is definitely pointing to a unique donor! Also, there's the matter of how the two women appeared and disappeared. That is certainly unique, also. (I realize there's not a physically present piece of evidence in support of that part of the story,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 30 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:18:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:13:30 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 30 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 30 July 27, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: htp://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ AUSTRALIAN STATE OPENS 170 UFO CASE FILES "Secret documents released by (Australia's) Northern Territory government reveal a mass of UFO sightings across the Top End, many of them unexplained." "The documents, declassified after 30 years under lock and key, detail a listing of UFO incidents across the Territory by a wide range of 'sighters,' including RAAF (Royal Australian Air Force) crews and weather forecasters." "The files were classified and only became available from the National Archives in Darwin after 20 years." "One sighting by the crew of an RAAF Hercules in Darwin in 1968 also appeared on radar although no human aircraft was identified in the area at the time." "The crew described a series of lights which crossed their takeoff path from Darwin Airport with no visible fuselage or structure. RAAF Command in Sydney," Australia's largest city, "said the intruder might have been a foreign aircraft." "'The fact that the sighting was made by an RAAF aircrew and detected by the aircraft's radar leave very little doubt...(that something) was in the area,' RAAF Command said, 'As the aircraft has not been identified, a violation of national air space cannot be discounted.'" "Another of the secret documents, obtained by the Australian UFO Research Association, describes a sighting by a weather bureau forecaster at Daly Waters, N.T. in November 1966. The forecaster was tracking a weather balloon with a theodolite when he noticed a high-flying object in the sky. He reported sighting a metallic-grey, oblong object at high altitude." "A check with the aircraft control office in Darwin revealed there was no aircraft in the area at the time." "A third file reports the sighting of a saucer-shaped object by a group of women in Alice Springs in 1967. The women spotted the UFO in the middle of the sky and said it was a silver colour with a copper hand around the centre." "UFO archivist Dominic McNamara said there were many N.T. sightings but most were unsubstantiated." "'The Northern Territory is a hot-spot for sightings particularly because of its remoteness,' McNamara said, 'But the cases show people actually see unidentified objects and can describe those over the area that stand out.'" "He said tracking down the files was an arduous task because a serial number needed to be quoted to obtain any files. So he cross-referenced files from related items, eventually narrowing the field to 170 documents." (See the Australian newspaper Northern Territory News for July 22, 2005, "Australia releases classified UFO doucments." Many thanks to ANOTHER UFO FLIES OVER SIMFEROPOL, CRIMEA On Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 9:25 p.m., Ukrainian ufologist Vladimir Petrovich Boyko was standing on his apartment balcony in Simferopol, a city on the peninsula of Crimea, when he spotted something unusual in the sky." "I want to report that I saw something from my balcony. It was a bright star emitting yellow-bluish light, flying over the city of Simferopol, from north or northwest to the south, apparently towards the Crimean coast of the Black Sea. Immediately I could tell that the object was different from other satellites. I saw many satellites that evening, and this object was different-- much brighter than commonplace satellites. Most importantly, while flying over my apartment house, the object emitted a very bright flash of light, or perhaps two lights in rapid succession, changing its brightness to even more bright and then changed back to its previous luminosity, not stopping and not manoeuvring." "That hints that the object could be a large satellite that made its manoeuvres in space, or turned over on its axis (the light could be a reflection of the sun on the panels of its solar batteries--V.P.B.)." "However, its direction was mystifying, and I noted that the object increased its brightness only after flying over my apartment house. Of course, this could be a mere coincidence and nothing more." (Many thanks to Crimean ufologist Anton A. Anfalov for this report.) UFO SIGHTED BY COUPLE OVER EL PASO, TEXAS On Monday, July 18, 2005, at 12:30 a.m., Dena Ciferri and her husband were at their home in El Paso, Texas (population 563,662), sitting on their front porch, when they saw a strange object in the sky. "The UFO seemed to be moving in a southeasterly direction very, very slowly," Dena reported, "My husband and I were sitting on our front porch when we looked up towards the moon and saw a round cluster of traveling lights that just seemed to hover there. We knew it was too high up to be an aircraft. When we looked at the moon, it was in a three o'clock position. After about an hour, you could tell that it was at about a four o'clock position." "The UFO was roundish. It had red, blue and white lights blinking in a certain pattern. My husband took a lengthy videotape of them. I couldn't quite tell the color of the UFO, but it looked reddish to me." (Email Form Report) MORE CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN UK "A superb new circle" appeared in a wheat field in Boxley, near Maidstone, Kent, UK on Sunday, July 17, 2005 at 7 p.m., British cerealogist Graham Tucker reported, "We were in the area last evening (Saturday, July 16, 2005) and don't think it was there at 9 p.m. It can be seen from the (motorway) M20 between junctions 6 and 7." "There was a UFO sighting in the same area Saturday (July 16, 2005) at 2 p.m." The eyewitness reported, "I managed to take few photos of what appeared to be a ball of light up in the sky. The crop circle is a beautiful work, a real treat." "We think that it came down last night," Graham added, "The sequence of events surrounding this formation is quite meaningful." On Wednesday, July 13, 2005, a crop circle was found on Sheep Pond Lane near Droxford, Hampshire. It was described as "a ring with prongs or petals" in a field of wheat, according to Garoth Attrill of Crop Circle Connector. On Sunday, July 10, 2005, a crop circle was discovered at Clays End, near Twerton, North Somerset. According to cerealogist Peter Sorenson, "On my way to visit a new find near Glastonbury, as we drove over a hill south of Bath, we saw this 'crow's foot' formation in a field below us. The lay looked new and fluffy with a few 'virginal' standing stalks and very little crop springing back up. The design consisted of three radiating rows of circles, emanating from a smaller triangle about eight feet (2.4 meters) in diameter. The top of the design is encircled by a ring." (Many thanks to Robert Fischer for these reports.) READER FEEDBACK: BROOK PARK UFO WAS JUST ANTARES Longtime ufologist Carol Hillberg writes, "First of all, I really want to let you know that I think your UFO Roundup is one of the bright spots of Internet ufology today--and that's really a compliment from a 40-year-plus saucer chaser such as myself." "However, if some of the Cleveland 'investigators' would only take the time to pull out their star charts and actually listen to the testimony of the witnesses of the 'UFO incident,' they would find that what these folks actually were seeing was the very bright red star Antares. Slow-moving, yes. Stars and planets appear to move from east to west at 15 degrees per hour. Also, sometimes clouds will obscur astronomical objects and make them seem to dim and also disappear." "I know, I operated a UFO reporting center in Cleveland for many years." "Antares is also sometimes called 'the rival of Mars' because of its bright red color. In fact, in July of 2004, a local resident and members of the police department reported said star as a 'UFO.'" "Keep up the great work." GERMAN CROP CIRCLE STORY WAS INCOMPLETE German cerealogist Andrea Mueller writes, "I just read your latest UFO Roundup (volume 10) number 29 for July 20, 2005. There was a short chapter on crop circles in Germany." "In this latest issue, number 29 of July 20, 2005, the report about crop circles in Germany wrongly mixed up information about the crop circle situation in my country. Until now there have been 16 crop circle formations, and these are discussed at the following bilingual (German and English--A.M.) Web site" where "German crop circle researchers and author Andreas Mueller keeps you regularly updated about events in the home country. Readers should go to http://www. kornkreise-forchung.de." "My thanks and best wishes." That's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Secrecy News -- 07/26/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:21:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:15:06 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/26/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 70 July 26, 2005 ** HOEKSTRA ON LEAKS ** ASHCROFT ON LEAKS ** NELSON, EMANUEL ON LEAKS ** SENATE DEBATES INTERROGATION STANDARDS ** A HANDFUL OF CRS REPORTS HOEKSTRA ON LEAKS House Intelligence Committee Chairman Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.) said yesterday that unauthorized disclosures of classified information had severely damaged U.S. intelligence and indicated that his Committee would hold hearings later this year to consider legislative action on the matter. "Each year, countless unauthorized leaks cause severe damage to our intelligence activities and expose our capabilities," Mr. Hoekstra told the Heritage Foundation yesterday. "The fact of the matter is, some of the worst damage done to our intelligence community has come not from penetration by spies, but from unauthorized leaks by those with access to classified information." A relative newcomer to this well-trodden field, Chairman Hoekstra made some factual errors in his remarks. Thus, he was incorrect to state that "there has only been one prosecution for non-espionage disclosure of classified information in the last 50 years." While there has been only one such conviction, that of Samuel L. Morison, there have been two prosecutions, including that of Daniel Ellsberg. See "Secrets and Leaks: The Costs and Consequences for National Security," remarks of Rep. Pete Hoekstra at the Heritage Foundation, July 25: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/07/hoekstra072505.html ASHCROFT ON LEAKS Most of the questions that Rep. Hoekstra proposed to ask about leaks in upcoming hearings were already asked and officially answered by the U.S. government as recently as three years ago. In 2002, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft provided a report to Congress on unauthorized disclosures of classified information which concluded that the executive branch already had the tools it needed to combat leaks and that new legislation was not required. "Given the nature of unauthorized disclosures of classified information that have occurred, ... I conclude that current statutes provide a legal basis to prosecute those who engage in unauthorized disclosures, if they can be identified," the Attorney General wrote. "Accordingly, I am not recommending that the Executive Branch focus its attention on pursuing new legislation at this time." (Like Mr. Hoekstra -- and presumably serving as his source -- Mr. Ashcroft also mistakenly wrote that "only a single non- espionage case of an unauthorized disclosure of classified information has been prosecuted in over 50 years.") See Report to Congress on Unauthorized Disclosures of Classified Information from Attorney General John Ashcroft, October 2002: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dojleaks.html NELSON, EMANUEL ON LEAKS Jack Nelson, the distinguished former Washington bureau chief of the Los Angeles Times provided a reporter's perspective on leaks in an op-ed last week. In a nutshell: "Without leaks, without anonymity for some sources, a free press loses its ability to act as a check and a balance against the power of government." See "Without leaks, truth dries up" by Jack Nelson, Los Angeles Times, July 21: http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-oe- nelson21jul21.story Complaining of what he considers excessive executive branch controls on unclassified information, Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-IL) last week said, "I, for one, would like more leaks, not less from this White House." See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/h071905.html SENATE DEBATES INTERROGATION STANDARDS Some of the bluntest criticism of Bush Administration policy on military interrogation of detainees comes from within the military itself. In a debate on the Senate floor yesterday, Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC) introduced several "recently declassified" internal memoranda from various Navy Judge Advocate General personnel. "Basically these memos are telling us that the proposed interrogation techniques dealing with the war on terror, suggested by the Department of Justice, sent over to Department of Defense, were such a deviation from the normal way of doing business that it would get our own people in trouble," Sen. Graham said. "It was such a deviation from the normal way of doing business that we would lose the moral high ground in fighting the war on terror," he said. Senator Graham spoke in favor of an amendment (no. 1557) to the Defense Authorization Act that he co-sponsored with Senator McCain and others to establish uniform standards for the interrogation of detainees held by the U.S. military. The record of the July 25 floor debate, including the declassified memoranda presented by Sen. Graham, may be found here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s072505.html As of yesterday, the amendment had not yet come to a vote. The Bush Administration said it "strongly opposes" this and related amendments that would regulate the detention of suspected terrorists. "If legislation is presented that would restrict the President's authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bring terrorists to justice, the President's senior advisers would recommend that he veto the bill," the White House said in a July 21 statement on the Senate bill. A HANDFUL OF CRS REPORTS Some reports of the Congressional Research Service recently obtained by Secrecy News include the following. "Naval Transformation: Background and Issues for Congress," updated June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS20851.pdf "Navy CVN-21 Aircraft Carrier Program: Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS20643.pdf "Panama: Political and Economic Conditions and U.S. Relations," updated May 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL30981.pdf "Japan-U.S. Relations: Issues for Congress," updated May 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB97004.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 30 - Correction & From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:16:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:16:51 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 30 - Correction & Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:22:11 +0100 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 30 Two comments re. this weeks bulletin. There was a typo in the "GERMAN CROP CIRCLE STORY WAS INCOMPLETE" article. The correct URL is: http://www.kornkreise-forschung.de/ Also: "ANOTHER UFO FLIES OVER SIMFEROPOL, CRIMEA" When I received Anton's e-mail I did some searching and added the following comment to the report in the Sightings section of UFOINFO: [UFOINFO Note: Using the coordinates I entered the Heaven's Above daily predictions for satellites of magnitude 4.5 and above can be found at http://tinyurl.com/8ev43 which shows the Cosmos 1844 Rocket as one possibility for the sighting. Another possibility is the International Space Station. See http://tinyurl.com/drx7d. Checking for Iridium flares produced no results.] Best wishes, E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:29:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Maccabee >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:07 -0400 >Subject: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage >I have posted a Quicktime video-clip at the following URL that >is derived from Graham Birdsall and Martyn Stubbs' documentary >video, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions'. Whatever the second object was on radar, it was hundreds of miles from the MIR. The two short clips of the monitor screen showing the track of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:37:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:21:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Fleming >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:07 -0400 >Subject: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage >I have posted a Quicktime video-clip at the following URL that >is derived from Graham Birdsall and Martyn Stubbs' documentary >video, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions'. >http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/MIR.html >The footage is of the Russian MIR Space Station and was recorded >by a Russian TV crew while filming a documentary of their own. >Apparently 'something' or 'someone' was very interested in >checking out the MIR space station that particular day. Note the >'double' radar targets on the tracking screen where there should >only be one, the MIR. >Begs the question, what, or who, is producing the second radar >blip? It appears to be the large bright object (hovering at the >MIR's 5 o'clock position) that is visible in the video as >'other' objects navigate to and fro around the station. Hi, John. This is an interesting video sequence, but I don't think that the bright spots shown on the big map are radar blips, if that's what you're referring to. If that map display is like the one in JSC's mission control
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:37:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:41:32 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >While I am happy to keep answering issues point by point it >might be easier if you are able to examine the full detail of >the reports closely. I definitely am interested in doing this! In addition to the DNA tests and results, I'd like to have more information pertaining to the morphological features of 'the hair.' Was there anything about its morphology that remotely indicates some other species was involved, say, as a product of a hybridization between humans and an additional species? For instance, as you probably know, the cuticle (outside covering of hair that is responsible for its resistance to decomposition and its stability) is composed of flattened, keratinized, overlapping scales that always point to the tip of each hair as they progress from the follicle. Most animal hair has the appearance of shingles on a roof when it comes to the scale pattern in the cuticle, and, if another species was involved, an unusual scale pattern in the cuticle might reveal this. Also, I know you referred to the unusual blonde color of what is normally black mongoloid hair and an apparent lack of pigment in the hair. Was this a result of a complete lack of pigment granules in the cortex of the hair (the cortex is made up of a regular array of spindle-shaped cells that run parallel the length of the hair and contain the pigment granules that give hair its color)? Additionally, what was the structure and appearance of the medulla? In animals, the medulla is the most predominant characteristic and usually occupies in excess of half of the hair's diameter. This could be useful in determining if the hair came from hybridization with another species. Was the medullary index measured, and if so, what was it - human hair usually has a medullary index of less than 1/3 while the medullary index of animal hair exceeds 1/2. (Again, possibly useful in determining the presence of hybridization with another species.) Since the medulla can be either continuous, interrupted, or fragmented and human head hairs usually show no medullae or possess only fragmented medullae (that is, they usually don't exhibit continuous medullae - hair from the Mongoloid race being an exception, possessing continuous medullae) and most animal hair has medullae that are continuous or interrupted (not fragmented), I'd be really interested in knowing the results of tests done regarding these morphological features, if any. Was a cross-sectional examination of the hair conducted? Negroid head hairs, for example, have cross sections that are flat to oval and usually this type of hair is kinky with dense pigments that are not distributed evenly, while Caucasian head hair has cross sections that are oval to round and is usually straight or wavy with more evenly distributed and finer pigments. The whole story of the hair is fascinating and I would like to know all I can about all the testing that was done, not only the nuclear and mtDNA testing/results, but any and all tests/results that pertain to the morphological features of 'the hair' from the Khoury case. This is good solid stuff that we can sink our teeth into and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:50:36 -1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:28:02 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:27:46 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook ><snip> >>>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* ><snip> >>>>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>>>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>>>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. ><snip> >>However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >>earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >>say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >>(available online at: >http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm ><snip> >>So Stone's "pioneering work" was able to show how Lt Col Madison >>was covering up the existence of these classified projects >>designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >>was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >>through his FOIA requests: >>"He [Stone] pointed out that documents originally classified as >>secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, >>and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also >>established as fact the location of the parent unit being at >>Fort Belvoir, Virginia. " (152) ><snip> >>It's worth emphasizing that we now have "all the data" due to >>Stone's pioneering work and ability to find the truth despite >>official Air Force initial denials of the existences of Projects >>Moon Dust and Blue Fly. What your own chapter demonstrates is >>that Stone was a pivotal figure in getting information about >>these highly classified projects into the public arena. He >>achieved this through persistent FOIA requests despite official >>denials, and was successful in contrast to the efforts of >>numerous veteran UFO researchers who have researched the Roswell >>crash but have been unable to find documentary evidence of the >>existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. >This is nonsense! Veteran UFO researcher, Robert G. Todd, the >master of FOIA requests, uncovered Project Moon Dust and Blue >Fly documents in the late 70's, long before Clifford Stone came >along. >Todd uncovered the critical 1961 AF Intelligence definition >document on Moon Dust and Blue Fly in an AF release of Aug. 20, >1979, as written up in the CAUS newsletter of June 1986. See >online copy at: >http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo Thank you for the correction. I did err in not giving proper attribution to the work of Robert Todd and others who have done pioneering FOIA research on UFO crash retrievals. Interestingly, Todd began his work on Project Moondust around the same time Clifford Stone actively began doing FOIA requests to bring an end to the secrecy in the later 1970's. Given what Stone has subsequently revealed about his own background, he may well have given Todd some tips and assistance. It seems you dismiss that possibility out of hand but it would not be unusual for researchers to be assisted by those within the military services with more knowledge about classified projects but constrained due to secrecy oaths. Since Stone was in communications with these FOIA researders at that time, this is a possibility that needs to be considered. >This means that Stone had no such "pioneering role" in >uncovering the 'truth' about Moon Dust and Blue Fly, and it does >not validate his suspect story in the slightest despite your >overheated efforts to twist history to support his whacked-out >claims. This is simply not true. Stone played a pioneering role in ferreting out information from the State Department and Defense Intelligence Agency concerning Project Moon Dust. He also was instrumental in establishing the connection between Project Moon Dust and Fort Belvoir as the host military facility for the elite recovery teams. Furthermore, being a pioneer simply means that one is at the forefront of a new body of knowledge. Stone was clearly, along with others such as Robert Todd, a pioneer into research on UFO crash retrievals. This was correctly acknowledged by Capt Kevin Randle in his book Project Moon Dust - despite his later change of heart due to Stone's personal testimony. Also, Stanton Friedman acknowledged that Stone had made available to the general public a large amount of UFO information never before published. This is what Stanton wrote about Clifford in the preface to UFOs are Real: "Stone risked his military carrer by trying to dig out the facts about highly classified USAF projects such as Moon Dust and Blue Fly. This truly dedicated researcher demonstrates throughout his book that the government agencies responding to his requests often gave contradictory testimonies." I suggest that this kind of tribute to Stone's 'truly dedicated' research into UFO crash retrievals should not be ignored simply because UFO researchers such as yourself take exception to his later testimony concerning his own direct role in projects such as Moon Dust. I think 'whacked out' is an appropriate epithet for your efforts to dismiss Stone's testimony. >CUFON had a number of Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents on its >website in years past such as the following AF letter of Nov 13, >1978, confirming the existence of Moon Dust and Blue Fly long >before Stone had anything to do with any of it: >"BLUEFLY was a project for the acquisition of airlift for a >quick reaction capability. It was determined that the need did >not exist and the project was discontinued several years ago." >MOONDUST is a program in which the Air Force provides technical >assistance in determining the origin of space debris, U.S. or >foreign." >http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm Yes, Robert Todd was responsible for the breakthrough with the 1961 Air Force letter as you rightly pointed out earlier. Stone himself acknowledges the work of UFO researchers in the late 1970s who produced these important documents. While Stone didn't mention Todd by name in his book, he certainly was aware of Todd's work. That in no way diminishes from Stone's subsequent achievements through FOIA requests. It merely shows that a number of researchers, including Stone, were simultaneously doing research on this important topic. >>The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >>and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >>active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. >If Stone was in the Army he would have had no "active role" in >the AF Projects, as the Army and the AF were separate military >services, and there is no shred of evidence of any interservice >posting. Stone claims that the UFO elite retrieval teams he worked on were inter-agency or inter-services teams. I don't see why that would be difficult to accept given that the high level of historical cooperation between the USAF and the US Army. After all, the Air Force evolved out of the US Army Air Force, and many Army/USAF bases are adjacent to one another. Furthermore, it makes much sense for these two military services to cooperate in this way. As for "no shred of evidence" that is precisely what Stone and others were able to achieve through FOIA requests to determine the existence of Project Moon Dust and its location at Fort Belvoir. >>Stone's >>successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the >>existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as >>you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist >>positions, how would he have learned about the existence of >>these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their >>existence into the public arena? >He would have learned of Moon Dust and Blue Fly the same way >anyone else in UFO research would have - FOIA docs released in >the 70's through no help from him, including several docs in the >CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, such as State Dept and DIA >cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts to recover downed Soviet >satellites. I would not necessarily accept the view that Stone played no role in the success of CAUS and researchers such as Robert Todd in discovering information regarding Project Moon Dust. After all, Stone was serving in the US Army and the crux of his subsequent claim that he actually served on these elite retreival teams, and wanted that information to get out into the public arena, meant that he had much information that may have led to colloboration with UFO researchers. As for the State Department, Stone for example gained the release of 280 documents from the State Department concerning Project Moon Dust on March 12, 1991; and was able to identify retrieval operation in countries such as Nepal and Sudan. This may have complemented the efforts of others in CAUS doing similar FOIA work but I do dismiss your effort to dismiss Stone's important FOIA work in order to discredit his later claims about his military service. >>I would suggest that we have two possibilities here. One, Stone >>is a deluded and/or publicity seeking UFO researcher who somehow >>got lucky in uncovering official documentation proving the >>existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. >You need to answer the question what documents - if any - on >Moon Dust and Blue Fly did Stone uncover that Bob Todd and >others had not already uncovered long before Stone came along as >a johnny-come-lately. Stone was the person who was able to identify the location of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir and also to demonstrate how the Air Force was lying in the effort to cover this up. It was Stone who got Senator Bingaman to write to the USAF to confirm the association of Fort Belvoir and Project Moon Dust. The Air Force responded in November 1992 and said "There is no agency nor has there ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with UFOs ... In addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly" Stone challenged the USAF reply to a sitting US Senator and got them to retract the statement and basically confirm the association of Project Moon dust and Fort Belvoir. That is a major breakthrough and I don't see why you or others do not want to give Stone credit for his pioneering work. I have found no record that Robert Todd played any role in confirm the location of Project Moondust at Fort Belvoir. >>Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service >>in classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon >>Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests >>since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their >>location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. >Since Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney Peter >Gersten, at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for >Gersten in the late 70's and 80's, I suggest Stone found out a >lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not >published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many tens of >thousands of pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF, >and many other agencies, there was simply no way to publish it >all). >A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >trail Todd blazed years before him. You are excluding the possibility that Stone was actually assisting Peter Gersten and Robert Todd in their work in exchange for tips on how to do a succesful FOIA request of his own. That is not a difficult premise to hold given what Stone later claimed about his military service, and his undeniable accomplishments in FOIA research into UFOs and crash retrievals. I think you are so intent on debunking Stone's testimony that you miss the obvious point that Stone, Gerston and Todd were probably collaborating and sharing much information between them. Trying to represent Stone as someone who simply copied Todd is inaccurate. Stone began making FOIA requests around the same time Todd was investigating Project Moon Dust. >>My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible >>and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others >>lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's >>success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and >>uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. >It proves nothing since it looks more like a ripoff of Bob >Todd's research, who was apparently the first to "prove the >existence of Project Moon Dust and... its location at Fort >Belvoir," or certainly Todd did so many years before Stone ever >got involved (there is a possibility someone "uncovered" Moon >Dust even before Bob Todd, and of course before Stone, who did >_not_ "uncover" its existence). What evidence do you produce to support your allegation of Stone ripping off Todd's work? It's just a dismissive comment that is not borne by the historical facts which are Stone's subsequent FOIA research and the numerous documents he was able to retrieve that supported the existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. In making an allegation such as this, have you actually interviewed Todd and gotten from him some statement to support your spurious allegation. You do not support your over the top claims regarding Stone with quotes or statements by those who may have been able to confirm the precise role Stone played in relation to Robert Todd. Furthermore, while Todd may have officially confirmed the existence of Project Moon Dust through the 1979 release of the 1961 Air Force letter, the Air Force response to Senator Bingaman in 1991 shows that the USAF was still under the impression that it could lie over the existence of Project Moon Dust to a sitting US Senator. Stone was correct to follow up and catch the USAF in a lie that it had to retract. In what way is that ripping of Todd's work? >>The implication is >>rather startling for those still debating whether UFO's are >>real, Stone did serve on UFO crash retrieval teams under Project >>Moon Dust, and his military records were altered to hide the >>actual training he performed and his military assignments. This >>of course leads to my own observations regarding the information >>Stone was told by his handler, a 'Colonel', who had the EBE >>guidebook describing 57 EBE groups that might be encountered at >>any UFO crash retrieval location. >The "implication is rather startling" that you would build such >a ridiculous case on such bogus and fraudulent falsification of >FOIA history. Bob Todd got the goods on Moon Dust as early as >1979 and Stone did not. Why is my case ridiculous? Stone was an accomplished FOIA researcher acknowledged by peers such as Stanton Friedman and Kevin Randle. It was only when Stone went public with his testimony of having served on the UFO retrieval teams that he became persona non grata to many UFO researchers. It seems that there is an instinctual bias against whistleblower testimonies concerning projects involving EBEs or ETVs no matter how credentialled or acomplished the whistleblower. Your effort to whitewash Stone's FOIA work is not persuasive and is merely a projection of your own bias against the testimony that Stone is currently providing on his claimed service with elite UFO retrieval teams. I find his testimony persuasive and wish to set the record straight on Sgt Stone who has been unfairly targetted by UFO researchers unwilling to seriously consider Stone's claims.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:44:55 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War - Gottschall >From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:27:28 +1000 >Subject: Re: Ufology's Internal War <snip> >It is through careful investigation, eliminating the possible, >do we get the impossible. The rest is all conjecture and >personal theories/beliefs. We live in exciting times, and even >though it can be very frustrating and often unsatifying we are >so ever moving towards solving this puzzling phenomena. All we >need to do, collectively, is not to implode by bitching to >ourselves but to stand together as one, despite the difference >of opinions and beliefs we all have. >Robert Hi List, Robert has raised an important point and I thank him for it. Standing together is something that the UFO community seems unable to do very easily and I believe it might be due to the community not holding a shared vision. Is it even possible to do so I wonder? I've written a small piece on this at: www.ufovoicedownunder.blogspot.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 27 UFO Sighting In Exeter Again From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:56:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:56:11 -0400 Subject: UFO Sighting In Exeter Again Source: The Exeter News-Letter - Exeter, New Hampshire, USA http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/07262005/news/54621.htm July 26, 2005 UFO Sighting In Exeter Again By Adam Dolge adolge.nul EXETER - There was something odd in the sky last week, something that caused a Navy veteran with 10,000 hours of flight experience to have his own close encounter. The former flight engineer, who wished to be identified only as "David," said of the experience, "this was like nothing I�ve ever seen before." What the retired Navy chief petty officer said he saw last Wednesday could only be classified as a UFO, an unidentified flying object. It was a bright and sunny afternoon, about 3:15 p.m., and David was outside preparing his lawnmower. He had filled the mower with gas, checked the oil, and took a sip from a glass of water he had poured. When he tilted his head back to get the final sip, through the bottom of the glass he saw a large cigar-shaped object hovering in the sky. David said windows were equally spaced around the object, however he didn�t see anyone or anything inside. The size of the object was enormous. By comparison, he said, consider what an ultralight plane would look like next to a Boeing 747. He said it was about the size of two USS Nimitz aircraft carriers. At first glance, through his empty glass of water he thought it could have been the Hood blimp. "But, the instant I put my glass down, I said, �that�s not a blimp.�" The object moved from west to east, very slowly for something that size, he said. His initial instinct was that the object was moving at about 100 knots, but something that big shouldn�t be able to stay in the air if it�s going that slow, he said. The object began changing colors from a bright silver to an orange-ish red. A strange cloud of red and orange flames began surrounding the object, and before he knew it the object stretched out like a rubber band. It grew to about twice its original size, and then it was gone. The entire incident lasted about 10 minutes, he recalled Monday morning, but he is unaware of the specific time because, "it felt like time stopped." He went into his house and first thought to call the police. He decided not to because he didn�t think they�d take him seriously. So he went on the Internet and searched for "report UFO," and found the Web site for the Seattle-based National UFO Reporting Center. Peter Davenport, director of the UFO reporting center, said David�s report was astonishing because of his history with flight. "I have no question on his reliability." He said he gets several accounts each year, but this one stood out. The report was well written and scientific, Davenport said. "In my view, that�s one of the cardinal rules of an account," he said. The center was founded in 1974 by UFO investigator Robert Gribble. The center�s Web site, www.nuforc.org, has a large list of UFO sightings. According to the site, the center�s primary function is to receive, record, and to the greatest degree possible, corroborate and document reports from individuals who have witnessed possible UFOs. David�s report, which will soon be on the Web site, will be among dozens of documented sightings to be formally reported to the center. Not the first time The Exeter area is no stranger to UFO sightings. In 1965, two Exeter police officers and hitchhiker Norman Muscarello, who was with them, gained national attention after seeing a UFO hovering over Route 101 in Kensington. The sighting was documented in a book called "The Incident at Exeter." And then there was the incident involving Barney and Betty Hill, a husband and wife from Portsmouth who claimed to have been abducted by aliens. The couple was driving from a vacation in Canada in 1961 when they saw a UFO. The object moved directly over their car, and before they knew it they grew drowsy. They later claimed to have been abducted by aliens and gave identical accounts while they were hypnotized. But for this recent sighting, David said he believes that there is life beyond Earth. He said the galaxy is so enormous, it�s hard to believe humans are the only intelligent life.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Filer's Files #31 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:54:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:25:07 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #31 - 2005 Filer=92s Files #31 -- 2005 Flying Aircraft Carrier in New Hampshire George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International July 27, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Webmaster: C E Warren www.cewarren. Skywatch Investigations This week's files cover: As we approach Mars expect upswing in sightings. Saturn=92s Moon Enceladus has giant boulders, and Radio messages from Saturn. UFOs were seen over California, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Mexico crash, Ohio, Texas and Washington. Many sightings were also reported in Australia, Canada, Crimea, Iraq, and United Kingdom. The image above is a colorized version with windows inserted of July 3, 1967, 7:15 PM, Cumberland, Rode Island Mothership photo by Joe Ferriere. Thanks to Wendelle Stevens UFO Photographs. Smaller craft are launched from the belly hatch. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. New Hampshire UFO Mother ship EXETER -- An Instructor Flight Engineer on the P3 Orion and EP-3 Reconnaissance aircraft with 10,000 hours of flight time called Peter Davenport to report, "An enormous silver cigar shaped object in the sky at about a 40 degree angle above the horizon about 3:15 PM, on July 20, 2005. There were very few clouds in the sky and it was about 90% clear blue sky that day with excellent visibility. He was shocked to see a very large cigar-shaped object hovering almost motionless, back-dropped by clear, blue sky in partly cloudy conditions with west wind at 9 mph. The witness states, "I am a retired Navy Chief with twenty-two years of service. I also worked for Boeing in Everett, Washington as a Quality Assurance Manager leading a team of 65 people in the Systems Installation Division on the Boeing 777 Production Line. I've flown over the entire globe and never have I ever seen anything like this cylinder. This object was about twice the size of a modern day US Navy Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier flying without sound. I thought it was between 2500 and 3500 feet in altitude because the clouds were at 5000 feet. There was also a row of large windows evenly spaced around the entire perimeter of the object a little bit higher than center on the object. The object was moving from the west directly toward me heading in an easterly direction and moving very slowly at less than 100 knots. There was this strange looking cloud of orange/red flames that started growing and billowing underneath the entire bottom of the object. The billowing fiery clouds reminded me of the way napalm rolls along on the vintage war film footage of Viet Nam I've seen on television except that there was no smoke associated with it. It looked as if the air itself had been suddenly ignited in a large billowing cloud of flames. Just as I was about to turn and run into the house due to fear the fiery cloud grew larger and it seemed to be pushing back toward the western end of the object and once it reached its peak (probably about half the diameter of the object) the object seemed to stretch out about twice its original size toward the eastern end of the object thus filling the entire sky in front of me and then in the wink of an eye the western end of the object caught up with the eastern end and it simply disappeared right in front of me. This was absolutely one of the most amazing things I have ever seen in my life and in my opinion this was not something man made and it was far too big to be a blimp or an airplane. I believe it was not of this Earth. Peter Davenport was iimpressed by his demeanor, eloquence, and apparent sincerity. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Mars Five year upswing in sightings. Over fifty some years there has been an increase in sightings when ever the Earth came close to Mars which occurred about every five years starting in 1947. We are again converging for a close encounter on October 30, 2005 at 69 million kilometers so sightings are likely to increase. Saturn=92s moon Enceladus has boulders NASA=92s Cassini spacecraft has coasted to its closest encounter yet - skimming just 175 kilometers above Saturn's icy moon Enceladus. But astronomers are at a loss to explain its observations. On 14 July, Cassini swooped in for an unprecedented close-up view of the wrinkled moon. Its Imaging Science Subsystem (ISS) camera has since returned pictures of a boulder-strewn landscape that is currently beyond explanation. The "boulders" appear to range between 10 and 20 meters in diameter in the highest-resolution images, which can resolve features just 4 meters across. "That=92s a surface texture I have never seen anywhere else in the solar system," says David Rothery, a planetary geologist at the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK. Cracks crisscross Enceladus's surface - possibly as a result of the moon being repeatedly squeezed and stretched by the gravity of Saturn and other moons nearby. But Rothery points out the boulders avoid - rather than fill - the cracks. This might indicate that the fracturing took place after the boulders had already formed. John Spencer, a Cassini team member agrees that the images are puzzling. "You would expect to see small craters or a smooth, snow-covered landscape at this resolution," he told New Scientist. "This is just strange. In fact, I have a really hard time understanding what I'm seeing." These images reveal a surface clawed with fractures and swollen with ridges. It could point to a substantial heat source within the moon, driving the internal convection of ice. And this raises the possibility that Enceladus could possess a sub- surface ocean similar to that on Jupiter's moon Europa. http://www.planetxpo.com/doohan Mick Ohrberg writes "Scientists at NASA have now heard proof (called 'Saturn= kilometric radiation') that Saturn has a phenomenon similar to the earths'= Northern Lights. Talking about the eerie sounding noise, Dr. Bill Kurth= with the University of Iowa, says "We believe that the changing frequencies= are related to tiny radio sources moving up and down along Saturn's= magnetic field lines." Editor=92s Note: Could ET be broadcasting from ships spotted in NASA photos? California cylinder images MODESTO -- In Filer=92s Files #30, R. David Anderson took this picture at= dusk on July 7, 2005, at around 8:50 PM of a cylinder shaped craft. The= Global Intelligence Desk sent mail stating "That was the same craft as was= over DC Monument a couple months ago! Didn't you notice! Find it at:= www.IntelDesk.com MODESTO -- R. David Anderson writes, "I have studied my July 7, 2005, picture and have concluded that it may have been some type of aircraft." The series of lights that run parallel may have been the strobe lights on the wings of the plane. The exposure could have caused this repeating pattern as the strobe lights flashed as the plane moved. In the six second exposure, the strobe lights appear twice, once at the beginning of the exposure and again at the end of the exposure. I can't quite understand why the strobe lights didn't just show up as streaks of light if this were indeed a plane. As one can see in the photo, the strobe lights, (if that is what they were) show up as individual spheres of light. I have gone out several times at night since then and took shots of airplanes above my residence using the same camera settings and was unable to duplicate this photo. Nothing even came close. This enhancement was made by Don Burelson PhD. MUFON NM Director. I recall that when I took the picture of the string of lights object, I did not see strobe lights. It appeared as one extremely brilliant light source. The parallel pattern of lights was only evident in the photo. I think that this merits further study in order to determine how a digital camera records an aircraft at night at certain settings and at various angles. MUFON's Bruce Maccabee PhD writes, "The strobe lights show up as dots rather than streaks of light because they are brief flashes; they are not on long enough for the plane to travel a noticeable distance. For example a plane traveling about 200 mph travels about 290 ft in one second but during the time of the strobe flash, about 1/1000 of a second; it travels less than a foot. The image of a steady light on an airplane should be a streak or line that is as long as the distance the plane traveled during the shutter time. For example, at 200 mph a plane travels about 1760 ft in 6 seconds. This distance would make a noticeably long streak or line image. Experiments should be done to determine what the images of several types of planes show when photographed at night with a 6 second exposure time. BURBANK -- I am a backyard astronomer and on July 15, 2005, at 2:24 AM, I saw two silent objects in my telescope following each other in a triangle/bell shape emitting gold colored sparks. The objects looked like they were made of a cloth-like material. Each object had two firing retro rockets that were gold and each had a rectangular shaped L.E.D. screen in it near the same area. The L.E.D.'s seemed to be displaying something. They looked like they were approaching Bob Hope (Burbank) Airport slowly and seemed to float as the sparks were emitted. This sighting lasted ten minutes and only ended when the objects burned up in the west southwest sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com SONORA -- Mark A. Olson, D. M. had a sighting of a glowing object on July 19, 2005, at 9:12 PM, when an object appeared over my home. The object was very bright and slow moving and did not make a sound. This glowing object was trailing a conventional aircraft and both were flying due south. The object was videotaped for about three minutes before it disappeared behind the branches of a tree. A curious "flash" appeared just below this object at the beginning of the above video clip. The flash was observed during the videotaping. When the video was reviewed, the "flash" appeared in only one frame. Thanks to Mark A. Olson, D. M. A video clip is now posted at www.sonorasightings.com drmarkolson.nul UFO encounter of Eugene Cuthbertson In early November, 1983, Gene Cuthbertson surveyed the miles of scorched hills east of the Villa Park stables where he boarded his mare, "Feisty." Most of the stable had been spared and he was glad to have helped in the evacuations, but the uncanny smell of smoke still dogged him. He organized volunteer horsemen to transport donated food to the surviving animals. "Feisty" was packed with grain, wild bird seed and bruised apples in two burlap feed bags. Eight riders assembled, their horses packed with edibles for the surviving wildlife. Horses were uneasy about entering the fire area, so Gene swabbed their nostrils with Vick=92s ointment to keep their tear ducts open and block the smell of smoke. The Morales sisters insisted on leading since they had a Minolta camera. They rode up the jagged scar of a rabbit trail into the hills, as dusk threatened to settle. Gene followed, with his German shepherd "Breta" in the lead. The riders followed at roughly hundred yard intervals. The plan was to dump food where animal tracks or birds were seen. Gene saw the Morales girls ahead of him, dissolve into the gathering darkness, but he knew where they were. Indirect lighting from the distant Riverside Freeway made the trail murky when seen from the back of a horse, so =91"Breta," lead the way. Gene spread his food among rabbit and quail tracks and the scorched area was as close to hell as he might ever have imagined. Only deflated cactus and singed scrub brush survived. He became swamped in complete darkness. Suddenly, "Breta" exploded with shaking, throwing her head around, barking, and making gurgling sounds. "Feisty," acted erratic, shaking wildly, and pounding her hooves into the ground. Gene=92s first thought was, "rattlesnake" and feared "Breta" had been bitten. Gene began to swing out of the saddle and froze. A huge disk drifted over him, perhaps only 15 feet overhead. It glowed faintly. The ground swirled with debris and fine dust, but he remained transfixed. Both awed and dumbfounded, he hung, partially dismounted. The disk, 55-60 feet in diameter floated away at an increasing pace. Gene=92s dog and mare never quite settled down. He later thought that only about twenty seconds had elapsed, but his watch died and even battery replacement couldn=92t fix it. He could see the disk assume the classic saucer shape, its top bulge becoming more apparent. Camera flashes came from one of the Morales girls in the distance. When the disk reached the end of the fire area, two others like it appeared. They took on incredible acceleration together, swinging northeast toward Nevada and vanished. This craft is identical to the one described. Gene spun "Feisty" around and backtracked toward the stable. When he arrived, he walked "Feisty" the old-fashioned way until she was cool. He was combing the sweat marks out of the her back, when old George Thompson, the stable=92s caretaker intercepted him and asked if he'd seen anything unusual in the burned out hills. Gene nodded. "No one will ever believe me, so I guess I'll just take notes, file it away and shut up." Gene went home and soaked in a hot, foamy bathtub, with his loaded Ruger .44 magnum close at hand. Fear began to seep into every part of him, as the UFO encounter repeated itself at fantastic speed within his mind. Waves of nausea swept through him and he leaned over, vomiting in the trash can. He nearly panicked, but the sight of "Breta" sleeping in the bathroom=92s doorway calmed him. He finally got out of the tub, feeling unnaturally awkward and feverish. He dried himself poorly and grabbed his Bible as he flopped onto the bed. He started to read Joshua 1:9 and fell uneasily to sleep. It seemed like only a few seconds had passed when the ringing phone awakened him, but it was a little after dawn. He felt weak and generally wretched. George Thompson was on the phone telling him that his mare, "Feisty" had been down and that Equine Veterinary Associates had been called for her in an emergency situation. Gene wanted to rush to the stable and meet with the veterinarians, but he found his body lethargic and his thinking somehow slow and cluttered. He managed to get dressed, but when he called "Breta," she didn't move. She was limp, glassy eyed and had labored breathing. Gene=92s adrenalin kicked in and he phoned ahead to his small animal vet, Dr. Helmut Denberg, a specialist in German shepherds. He met with his own physician, Dr. Milton Okin and results of medical tests showed he was anemic. Veterinarian, Denberg revived "Breta" and eventually restored her health, but determined after extensive testing, that she was badly anemic. EVA later phoned in the test results on "Feisty," describing her anemia. Gene thought about possible radiation exposure, but he didn't know of anyone with a Geiger counter and he was so miserably weak and nauseated that he couldn't immediately look into such a possibility. It might seem strange to people not familiar with veterinary science, that "Feisty," Gene, and "Breta" were all treated basically with the same medications and procedures. Each received massive vitamin injections and ferrous sulfate tablets, and antibiotics, in addition to their normal nutritional supplements and lots of rest. It took well over two weeks for them to show signs of recovery and renewed strength. A month later, Gene examined the photos of the disk, taken by the Morales sisters. The pictures were of poor quality and showed the saucer as little more than a blob, making them only a slightly better than useless. The pictures reminded him of the encounter and he shuddered, preferring to forget the experience, if only he could, but it haunted him. It still haunts him. Basically a shy, sensitive, even among his fellow university students, Gene avoided the topic of UFO=92s entirely and suppressed memories of the UFO encounter. He reviewed his notes and placed them in a folder, which he rarely opens. Years passed quickly and the UFO phenomena gained credibility and quietly Gene Cuthbertson began to study the UFO phenomena. He joined MUFON and helped organize the Orange County Chapter, but until now declined to relive the encounter or to write about it. Florida light PALM HARBOR, CLEARWATER -- On July 13, 2005, the witness was floating around his pool on a raft staring into the sky. At around 12:15 AM, I noticed a ''star'' I thought was different. Five minutes later, after looking around the sky, I turned my head back to check on the "planet star" and it shot off in a direct angle downward, and disappeared. This immediately made me jump up, and lose my raft. After looking around in desperation to find where it had gone, and also to make sure I was just seeing things, I saw a light in a spot in the sky where I hadn't remembered seeing one. It was the exact same size and brightness, and color (white light gleaming with a slight green). When I got out of the pool to look at it, it was gone and I could not see it at all in the sky. I was facing the northwestern sky when I had this sighting. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Georgia three UFOs seen NORTH-CENTRAL GEORGIA.-- JH a lady in Georgia was taking cloud pictures in her back yard on Monday, July 18, 2005. When she looked at the pix, what she saw in one of them shocked her. Illinois multiple lights hanging in sky CHICAGO --Multiple bright dots of light were observed hanging in the air on July 9, 2005, at 17:15 PM. The lights were viewed in a clear blue sky NW just of Chicago's Downtown. The objects might have been dismissed as a bunch of shiny Mylar balloons but these hovered in despite the wind aloft. These lights were observed for ten minutes and were not planes, nor fireworks, nor a light phenomena It resembled pictures of the recent "Mexico Flotilla" or the 1947 Arnold film. Thirty multiple lights seemed to be hanging in the sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Indiana football shape FORT WAYNE -- The observer says, "I was outside with a friend skywatching on July 9, 2005, around midnight when I saw an object flying over my house and pointed it out to my friend. He did not see it as it lasted only five seconds. I clearly saw a football shaped object with wings or some sort of appendages. It seemed to be self lit and gave off a translucent pinkish light. The wings were vibrating very fast. It traveled in a straight line and did not deviate and disappeared by vanishing. The next morning we looked at the newest crop circle from Silbury Hill in the UK. The formation was discovered on 7/9 and was remarkably similar in shape to the thing that I had seen. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/circle2012dreams/ Pennsylvania lights in a triangular shape INDIANA -- On July 11, 2005, at 11:45 PM, the witness went for a dip in his pool with a couple of his roommates and saw an occasional airplane fly over. They spotted seven lights in a boomerang shape floating north across the sky. There were three steady white lights on each side of the boomerang, and one at the point of it. They were dimmed to avoid detection. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Roswell crash in New Mexico ROSWELL -- Don Burleson PhD writes, " In Filer=92s Files #30 dated (July 20, 2005) Tom Carey=92s refers to the Roswell impact site and states, "The site=92s location is not based upon mathematical models but upon accounts of military and civilian eyewitnesses who were actually there." Since Tom also mentions that he and Don Schmitt had employed their own "band of feasibility," I assume (there has been nothing else written on the subject) this refers to my article on "Roswell Trajectory Feasibility," at www.cufos.org, in which I demonstrate mathematically that there is a relation between object velocity and altitude on the one hand and, on the other, how far downrange from the debris field the UFO could have fallen. I wish to point out that mathematical arguments simply say what they say, and valid witness accounts must ultimately be consistent not only with each other but with scientific fact. I have shown that if the object was flying at an altitude and velocity consistent with witness sightings (i.e. low enough to be seen as described, and not so rapid as to become invisible) and still managed to fall, say, 40 miles downrange, this would be inconsistent with the hypothesis that the object lost self- propulsion at the time of trauma. In such scenarios (where there was some reason to believe the object fell that far away from the Debris Field) it would follow that the object virtually certainly did not lose propulsion, which would be something we didn't know before. My intent has been to show that some combinations of circumstances are possible and some are not. In any case, for everything to make sense, witness accounts must agree with the principles of physics, at least insofar as we understand those principles. And by the way, if the Sci-Fi Channel team had its own "band of feasibility," I would be very interested, as a mathematician, in knowing what it was based on, if not mathematical principles. Thanks to Don Burleson PhD., MUFON Missouri UFO photo from 1950's Nick Balaskas writes, Maybe after comparing the picture of the flying saucer that was allegedly taken by a 12 year old boy in 1956 above with the picture of the identical looking fictitious flying saucer on the cover of the U.S. Air Force's Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14 below, maybe Don and Richard will have one good reason not to believe the kid's story. Although I am not from the "Show Me" state, I still would want to see the unedited photo before I am convinced otherwise. This is one of many such dubious UFO cases being reported that may lead one to conclude from the collective video film evidence we have so far that all UFOs are not real (i.e. ET spacecraft). Thanks to Nick Balaskas Editor's Note: Many people claim the disk shown in the photos were experimental USAF aircraft. New Mexico videos LORDSBURG -- Benjie Meding sent me a remarkable video showing many UFOs in the area around his home in southwest NM. He sent a total of one hour and twelve minutes of various UFO shots. Most were of white unidentified objects that accomplish various maneuvers. The video also had dark F-117 Stealth fighter aircraft. Ohio the Fostoria Portal Electrical Engineer John E. Combest who has been studying George Ritter=92s images writes, "I feel certain that what we are seeing is a glimpse of what can be done when the knowledge and technology is available to produce and properly utilize extremely powerful magnetic fields applied in a complex manner at very high frequencies." The result of such applications is to be able to produce and control changes in the structure and behavior of materials, and to achieve results which are not possible using only the intensity and frequency ranges commonly available in industry. James M. McCampbell who was a physicist and at one time Director of Research for MUFON had stated that very high electromagnetic frequencies were known to be associated with UFO propulsion systems. He believed that UFOs were "metallic machines exhibiting flight technology exceeding Earth-based knowledge." According to one of the books by Raymond Fowler, the often- abducted Betty Andreasson once asked the leader of the grays who usually picked her up how it was that they were able to enter her house through the closed kitchen door, and the leader stated, "We control the vibrations." And that statement seems to imply that they are able to control the rate (frequencies) and manner in which electrons, atoms, and molecules interact with one another, and thereby succeed in being able to cause one type of solid matter to pass through another type of solid matter with no permanent restructuring of either type of matter. I myself on one occasion was involved in an event during which solid objects were made to pass through one another with no detectable interference. Magic is not involved, and neither are time warps, or different "dimensions", but a manipulation of the commonly understood "laws of nature" by using forces unknown to almost all human scientists. Thanks to John E. Combest Texas cigar KILLEEN -- The witness states, "I was driving my wife to work when suddenly I saw a bright silver cigar-shaped object come out of a large puffy cloud and enter a clear area of blue sky on July 8, 2005, at 12:35 PM. It disappeared in seconds into another cloud and never reappeared. The object's brightness caught my eye and then after seven seconds, the object became darker and entered another large cloud, but it never came out through the other side. Unfortunately my wife did not see the object. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Washington hovering metallic object SEATTLE -- While sitting in traffic on July 8, 2005, at 12:35 PM on I-5, three observers saw a single object that appeared to hover at 75 degrees above the eastern horizon. It was a shiny metallic object with geometrical facets on top of it. The area around the object had a "halo" of dark blue compared to the clear blue sky behind it. This "halo" appeared fuzzy and did not seem to have definite edges. We watched for ten minutes as we drove towards downtown. It was about 1/6 the size of the moon. It was not moving in relation to us. We lost sight of it when we entered a tunnel. Later, we saw it again for a couple of seconds before it seemed to "vanish" from the sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport www.ufocenter.com WENATCHEE -- I was sitting in my backyard having a coffee on July 13 2005, at 9 PM, when I happened to look up into the sky. I observed a cylinder shaped object. It appeared to be at the altitude of a commercial airliner, moving somewhat slower than a commercial jet. If it was at the cruising altitude of an airliner it would have been at least one and a half their size. The thing seemed to yaw slightly as it moved from the northwest to the southeast. It was definitely cylinder shaped with no wings or vertical stabilizer. I observed sunlight glinting off its surface. I'm an air crewman with extensive training in the observation of aircraft and I know this wasn't any kind of aircraft. It was absolutely silent during the observation period and moved with a strange kind of grace. There were bumps or blisters that were noticed as sunlight glinted unevenly across its surface. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Australia Top-end X-files revealed SECRET -- Documents released by the Northern Territory Government reveal a mass of UFO sightings across the Top End, many of them unexplained. The documents - declassified after 30 years under lock and key - detail a history of UFO activity across the Territory by a wide range of =91sighters=92, including RAAF crews and weather forecasters. The files were classified and only became available to the public from the National Archives in Darwin, after 30 years. One sighting, by the crew of a RAAF Hercules in Darwin in 1968, also appeared on radar, although no known aircraft was identified in the area at the time. The crew described a series of lights which crossed their take-off path from Darwin airport, with no visible fuselage or structure. RAAF command in Sydney said the contact may have been a foreign aircraft. The fact the sighting was made by an RAAF aircrew and detected by the aircraft's radar leaves very little doubt that something was in the area," RAAF command said."As the aircraft has not been identified, a violation of our national airspace cannot be discounted." Another of the secret documents, obtained by the Australian UFO Research Association, describes a sighting by a weather bureau forecaster at Daly Waters in November, 1966. The forecaster was tracking a weather balloon with a theodolite when he noticed a flying object in the sky. He reported sighting a metallic-gray, oblong object flying at high altitude. A third file reports the sighting of a saucer-shaped object by a group of nurses in Alice Springs in 1967, who spotted the UFO in the middle of the day and said it was a silver color with a copper band around the center. UFO archivist Dominic McNamara said there were many NT sightings. Snip Copyright 2005 News Limitedhttp://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16000752- 13762,00.html Canada red glowing light NANAIMO, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- On July 14, 2005, at 3 AM, I was sleeping last night and was suddenly awakened by a sound which seemed to be coming from my back yard. I looked outside to see a red ball of light and after watching for a few minutes I went to the sliding glass door in the family room. I went to open the door and the light suddenly disappeared, making a sound I can't explain, and then a crash. I was going to close the door when I felt a sudden coldness come over my body. It made my body cold and shocked, and then I was able to close the door. I went right back to my room and saw the red glowing light still pulsing and seeming to grow in size then suddenly shrank. I woke up the next morning wondering what I had seen and feeling a sense of something watching me. Thanks to Brian Vike MELFORT, SASKATCHEWAN -- NWSURC received a report of a strange object seen on July 12, 2005, by Wilf Thomas about 7:45 PM, as he was watching a Cesna-type plane fly over at 1000 feet and a mile behind it and to the right was a silverish cylinder-shaped object (about half the size of the plane. The plane then veered north, as the cylinder turned east flying slower than the plane. It had no obvious wings and a light was seen at both ends of the cylinder. Thanks to Wilf Thomas Note: Last week the very same object was seen along Highway 21 about in the air near Milleton Hall. It was observed in a stationary position for 9 minutes before it slowly flew at a 1000 feet in a northeast direction. Thomas phoned and said he just seen a photo from Idaho similar to his sighting. Thanks to http://www.ufo-connection.com BOISE, Idaho -- Filer=92s Files #30 shows a photo taken July 1, 2005, from the Idaho Center Outdoor Amphitheater. The photographer states, "I was snapping a photo of the KQFC airplane banner and a tethered blimp balloon and wanted to get them in the same shot, so I took a several photos." This is the only image that had the UFO in it. See www.nationalufocenter.com\ Crimea another UFO SIMFEROPOL -- The witness reports I saw the a bright star, emitting yellow-bluish light, flying steadily over the city towards the coast of the Black Sea from my balcony on July 14, 2005, at 9:25 PM. This object was much brighter than common satellites and emitted bright flashes of light rapidly changing its brightness to even more bright, and then returned to the same intensiveness of lighting. The other witness, Vladimir Petrovich Boyko, also a UFO researcher told me about his numerous similar observations this summer. Thanks to Anton A.Anfalov, Ph.D. an.nul ul. Tel. 380 (652) 25-66-90 Iraq UFO sighting and picture TIKRIT -- Charles E. Ratliff, 1SG writes, "I'm currently serving in Iraq and took the attached photo of an Apache Attack helicopter with a Nikon Coolpix 5200 Digital Camera." There is another object to the upper left of the gunship. The date and time are stamped on the photo. I did not see anything other than the AH64 when I took the photo and it appears (at least to me) that the UFO is moving very fast. Thanks to: ASD NJMUFON Charles E. Ratliff, 1SG, HHC, 250th Signal Battalion, OIF III, FOB Danger UK UFOs sighted BRACKNELL NEWS -- UFOs were sighted in the sky over Crown Wood on July 19, 2005, when Maurice Jones looked through his binoculars that he uses to spot birds. But when he and some of his family saw not one, but two UFOs hovering above their house at 4 PM, they knew something strange was happening. They got some neighbors to look as well. Maurice, 50, a Parcel Net courier, said his 12-year-old daughter Alaina, spotted the strange object first. Maurice said: "The first object was huge and the shape of a plane fuselage or a cigar tube. It was brown and rotating in the sky. When it caught the sun it had a metallic appearance. It came right over the top of us." Mr. Jones said the object was in the sky for around 20 minutes before disappearing. But the group could not believe their eyes when they saw the second object a few minutes later - a flying saucer spinning fast. Both objects were in the Heathrow Airport flight path. Snip http://icberkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/ Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD Your donations do make a difference in my ability to bring you the latest news! So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Alien Autopsy Inquest Available As E-Book From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:15:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:41:15 -0400 Subject: Alien Autopsy Inquest Available As E-Book For those of you that might be interested, my new e-book, Alien Autopsy Inquest, is now available via Filament Books at: http://tinyurl.com/brvk9 for just $9.99. It is quite literally _the_ most comprehensive work to-date on what is _the_E most controversial film in the entire history of UFO research.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:27:29 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:54:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >>show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >>alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >>by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >>became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >>a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >>his military records. >>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. <snip> >The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. Frank: The answer seems fairly simple to me - Corso provided his own biography, which was not vetted (why would they double-check - he was a WWII vet with a fairly solid military career, and hadn't yet started to spew his Roswell bunk). This happens more often than you might think with government. In my books, it provides some early evidence that Corso's problems with the truth did not just begin with The Day After Roswell. Given the choice between his official record, and the information you cite, I'll take the official record any day. No gray basket required.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:55:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>>Too often individuals assume a >>>whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >>>prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >>>discredited because they have not been able to adequately >>>respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >>>pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >>>Corso.... >>>... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >>>as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >>>in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >>>clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >>>the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >>>files. >>This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >>show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >>alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >>by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >>became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >>a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >>his military records. >>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. >snip< >Brad, Et AL, >The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover personally called him a "rat"? These guys on Congressional committee staffs are not prescient geniuses, analytical whizzes, brilliant detectives who catch subtle discrepancies or vigorously research every item, every witness, every allegation. Congress has nowhere near the budget that the Executive Branch has, so how could Congress hire enough staff to check out every fact? Clearly Corso told the Committee staff what must have been his standard fib, that he had been an NSC "Staff" member during the Ike administration. As I pointed out before and as his military records show this was not true. Both the OCB and the CIA reported to the NSC but a CIA employee does not get to list "NSC
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:22 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>Aloha all, here is my latest Exopolitical Comment which is based >>>>on my continuing investigation of the whistleblower testimony of >>>>Sgt Clifford Stone. >>>>Michael Salla >>>>****** >>>>Source: http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-35.htm >>>>An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook* >>><snip> >>>>Even strong critics such as Captain Kevin Randle (ret) >>>>acknowledge Stone's pioneering research in bringing to the >>>>public information concerning UFO crash retrieval teams. >>>Dr. Salla - >>>Please, I am not retired. I was just released from active duty >>>after a tour in Iraq (okay, Baghdad and points around it) and I >>>still drill with the Iowa National Guard. I am subject to recall >>>in the next few months. But I don't want to have to explain, >>>once again, that I have not retired from the military and do not >>>expect to do so until 2009. >>Aloha Capt Randle, thank you for clarifying your current >>military status, and apologies for not following earlier >>discussions where you described your current status. Perhaps I >>can be forgiven for taking literally what was said on the inside >>back cover of your book, Project Moon Dust (1998): 'A retired >>Captain in the U.S. Air Force.' I would suggest in future you >>get your publisher to more accurately describe your military >>status in any biographical statements to prevent future >>misunderstandings. >I was telling you that I have not retired from the military and >provided the latest in my military background. When the jacket >material for Project Moon Dust was written it was accurate. The >original edition says nothing about me being retired. >Unfortunately, in the mass market paperback, someone has added >the note that I was retired. >So, let me tell you that I joined the US Army in 1967 as a >private, did basic training at Ft. Polk. When that was >completed, I entered Warrant Officer Flight Training and >completed that in August, 1968. I was a helicopter pilot and was >sent immediately to Vietnam. I flew with the 116th Assault >Helicopter Company and later with the 187th AHC. When my tour >ended, I was assigned to Ft. Wolters, Texas and was released >from active duty in June, 1971. While in college, I took Air >Force ROTC and was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Air >Force. I did a short active duty tour and then joined the 442nd >Tactical Airlift Group at Richards-Gebaur AFB in Missouri. From >there I went to the O'Hare Air Reserve Forces Facility and was >eventually promoted to captain. In 1986 I ended active >participation in the Air Force Reserve but remained in the >Inactive Reserve. In 2002, after 9-11, I joined the Iowa Army >National Guard, as a captain, and in March 2003 we were called >to Federal Active Duty. After training at Ft. Riley, KS (yes the >very base that Corso was at when he saw the little bodies in >boxes) we were sent first to Kuwait and then, within days, to >Baghdad. We convoyed up the main highway to Baghdad. Eleven >months later, we rotated out of theater, to Ft. Riley, and the >back to our home station. I served as the battalion intelligence >officer during our tour. I have also received training as a >military police officer In July 2004, my name appeared on the >Department of the Army promotion list to Major. Now you have no >excuse for misunderstanding my somewhat eclectic military >background. Eclectic it certainly is and I congratulate you on your recommendation for promotion. Acknowledgement for work well done from one's peers is alway very satisfying. >>Since I have your attention, I would appreciate you clarifying >>some of your comments made in the case of Clifford Stone in some >>earlier correspondence between us. You for example said in an >>earlier post: >Okay, but I hesitate to get involved in this because you simply >won't listen. No matter what evidence is offered, you spin it so >that your favorite "whistleblower" is the victim of >governmental efforts to suppress the information and attempts to >suggest otherwise have some sort of nefarious motivation. Here >it is but you're not going to like it. Ok, we've had disagreements. You've stated your case on some of the key whistleblowers I've used for my research, I've stated my own perspective. I didn't find your arguments concerning Phillip Corso, Clifford Stone and Robert Dean to be compelling. Interestingly, you conclude that I'm the one not listening since I don't accept your arguments. I guess other possibilities are not worth contemplating. >>'Stone claims that he had 'never been trained as a clerk >>typist,' yet his service record shows that about his only >>training in the Army (other than basic training) was as a clerk >>typist. He attended school at the USATC for eight weeks and was >>awarded the military occupation speciality (MOS) of 'Clktypist >>71B in 1968. He took an advanced NCO school for five weeks in >>1982 and a one week school labeled as 'headstart' in 1989. So, >>in other words, about the only training he did have was as a >>typist. His assignments, throughout his military career have one >>thing in common. They are all labeled as clerk or admin. None of >>the strange assignments he claimed and no holes in his record >>for such assignments. Oh, yes, his records were altered. I >>forgot.' >Yes, I know what I wrote and I have seen no evidence to suggest >that any of that is untrue. >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/apr/m14-014.shtml >>You are clearly dismissing Stone's claims of having served on >>UFO Crash Retrieval teams such as Project Moon Dust. The >>implication is that Stone never did any of the training he >>claimed, nor served on any of the Crash retrieval assignments he >>claimed. The conclusion therefore is that Stone is embellishing >>what appears to have been a rather pedestrian military career. >>And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military >>records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone >>is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. >I vote for number two. SFC Stone offered no evidence that his >records have been altered other than his claim. And I doubt that >you have asked for any evidence of the same. >But let's say that you decide to check my background and you >write to the big records center in St. Louis. And, let's say >that you find my claim to have been trained as a military police >officer to be questionable. When the records arrive (those parts >that are considered to be public record), you find no >indications of training in military police. >You ask for clarification and I say that my records, for >whatever reason, have been altered. But, to prove that claim, I >offer certified copies of the graduation certificate that I >received at the completion of the training, I can provide copies >of the course work to show it's completion, and if you travel to >Ft. Leonard Wood and go into the Military Police School, you >find my class footprint (which is the plaque we donated) >includes both my name and my photograph with the rest of the >class. >In other words, I can prove it beyond the military record and I >don't have to claim my records have been altered. It could be >just a case of the clerk being too busy inventing tales to take >proper care of his assigned duties. Forgive me but where is the analogy here with Stone's case? Your training as a Military Police Officer is not classified is it? Nor is the existence of contingents of military police that are deployed on various assignements classified either is it? So there would be no need to have your records concering your training and deployments altered on the basis of national security. In contrast, both the training and the existence of groups involved in the retrieval of crashed disks is claimed to be highly classified. Something that is very reasonable given the existence of waived Special Access Programs whose existence is a secret. As the 1991 letter to Senator Bingaman denying the existence of Project Moon dust suggests, Moon Dust is highly classified and the documentary trail is pretty thin. Stone's claims concerning the alteration of his military records is plausible given the classified nature of the training and deployments of crash retrieval teams he claims to have been recruited for. >>However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >>earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >>say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >>(available online at: >>http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm >:>( >>'When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force >>about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel >>John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of >>Legislative Liaison, wrote, 'There is no agency, nor has there >>ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with >>UFO's or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In >>addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. >>Those missions have never existed.' What the documentation, now >>available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and >>the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that >>Madison's letter to a United States Senator is, at best, >>inaccurate.' (p. 151). > >>So Stone's 'pioneering work' was able to show how Lt Col Madison >>was covering up the existence of these classified projects >>designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >>was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >>through his FOIA requests: > >Brad Sparks noted that Stone would have learned of Moon Dust and >Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - >FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, >including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, >such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts >to recover downed Soviet satellites. Now I find this to be very interesting. You have authored a book, Project Moon Dust, and in fact refer to Robert Todd on a number of occassions (pp. 154-57). In your research you were clearly aware of the earlier research efforts on Project Moon Dust by Todd. Yet you still referred to Stone as a "pioneer" in the release of documents concerning Project Moon Dust through FOIA (p. 150). Were you wrong then and right now in following Brad Spark's current tune? If you are right now, does that mean you simply hadn't done adequate research in writing a book on Project Moon Dust? You can't simply say Stone misled by not crediting Todd since you already were aware of Todd's work which you did reference. Did you speak or communicate with Todd at all in researching your book? What did he say and why did you refer to Stone as the pioneer in Moon Dust research rather than Todd? Why do you simply dance to the tune Brad Spark's is playing without coming out with more information on what it was Todd learned and the role played by Stone? >>'He [Stone] pointed out that documents originally classified as >>secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, >>and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also >>established as fact the location of the parent unit being at >>Fort Belvoir, Virginia. ' (152) > >>Later in your book you say: 'Is it necessary here to suggest >>that the Air Force had been caught in a lie (or misinformation) >>to Senator Bingaman because the documents were available to >>positively refute them? (p. 152). >>You conclude chapter 8 in your book by saying: >>'Moon Dust became the real investigation of UFOs, the secret >>study that all of us claimed existed and that the Air Force >>denied. It was carried out by specially trained intelligence >>personnel. And, its existence was denied by the Air Force >>despite the facts. Now we have all the data.' (161) >This says nothing about Stone's credibility as a witness, only >that he supplied, to me, documents that he, and others, had >uncovered concerning Project Moon Dust and Operation Blue Fly. I >always try to provide credit where credit is due - even when >there is a chance it'll come back to haunt. The truth is that >Stone shared the information he and those others had gathered, >regardless of the source. > >I will point out that his analysis wasn't always supported by >the information. Once he told me that the Chilean Air Force had >fired missiles at a UFO and hit it without doing any damage. >What the report actually said was that the Chilean Air Force had >fired missiles at a UFO without result which could have meant >that they missed it. Stone has provided sufficient documents concerning Project Moon Dust to establish his credibility as a researcher. It seems that you are doing something similar to Brad Sparks in that you are trying to dismiss Stone's credibility as a whistleblower by arguing that his earlier UFO research was not as original and important as first thought by reseachers. That to me is pretty disingenous since Stone's FOIA research is a matter of the public record and one can simply purchase a copy of his book, UFO's are Real and decide how important his earlier research was given the extensive documentation in it. Given your own earlier support for Stone's pioneering work, and Stanton Friedman's comments in the preface to Stone's book, Stone was clearly well regarded by his peers at the time of writing his book. What changed? Stone decided to spill the beans on his own involvement in these projects, and become a whistleblower. >>It's worth emphasizing that we now have 'all the data' due to >>Stone's pioneering work and ability to find the truth despite >>official Air Force initial denials of the existences of Projects >>Moon Dust and Blue Fly. What your own chapter demonstrates is >>that Stone was a pivotal figure in getting information about >>these highly classified projects into the public arena. He >>achieved this through persistent FOIA requests despite official >>denials, and was successful in contrast to the efforts of >>numerous veteran UFO researchers who have researched the Roswell >>crash but have been unable to find documentary evidence of the >>existence of UFO crash retrieval teams. >Brad Sparks sent the following, and supplied it to the List, but >I think it bears repeating because it shows the true evolution >of this area of investigation. Sparks wrote: >--- >"'Veteran UFO researcher' Robert G. Todd, the master of FOIA >requests, uncovered Project Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents in >the late 70's, long before Clifford Stone came along. > >Todd uncovered the critical 1961 AF Intelligence definition >document on Moon Dust and Blue Fly in an AF release of Aug. 20, >1979, as written up in the CAUS newsletter of June 1986, see >online copy at: >http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo >This means that Stone had no such 'pioneering role' in >uncovering the 'truth' about Moon Dust and Blue Fly and it does >not validate his suspect story in the slightest despite your >overheated efforts to twist history to support his wacked out >claims. >http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm >--- >So, what we have, in reality, is Stone telling me how he had >gathered all this information, but forgetting to mention that he >had followed in the footsteps of others, most notably Robert >Todd. Stone's work wasn't pivotal, but Todd's was. Have you bothered to do any research into the relationship between Robert Todd and Clifford Stone? Todd, Stone and Peter Gersten were in touch in the late 70s over FOIA and Project Moon Dust. Who was helping who? I'd like to learn myself by talking to either Robert Todd or Peter Gersten. Instead, you simply accept Brad Spark's claim that Stone 'ripped off' Todd's research. There's no foundation for that other than Spark's own imagination. >>The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >>and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >>active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. > >There is no inconsistency. Stone had the documents, shared them >with me and deserved the credit for doing so. However, when he >began to inject himself into the middle of the operations, >claiming expertise that he didn't have and telling tales that >clearly were not true, then it was time to say something more. Let's do a little background here. In his 1997 book, Stone said he would reveal "more in a forthcoming book about my life and involvement within the Aerial Phenomena Field" (UFO's are Real, p. 47) . Your own book Project Moon Dust appeared in 1998 and acknowledged Stone's book. So you must already have been aware that Stone had already stated that he was involved in the "Aerial Phenomena Field" and would be more forthcoming later. So when Stone publically injected himself into the crash retrieval projects by becoming a whistleblower, this was not a sudden turn around by Stone but something consistent with what he had earlier said. Despite this consistency in Stone's behavior, I find your a priori dismissal of Stone's testimony to be inconsistent with the documentation Stone brought forward. One of the keys to Stone's credibility as a whistleblower is his documentary research through FOIA requests, and that does lend credence to his later claims regarding being personally involved in crash retrieval projects such as Moon Dust. >More important, he forgot to mention Robert Todd and those who >had led the way for him. As I followed in his footsteps, and >provided credit for his assistance, he followed in the footsteps >of others and forgot to provide credit to those. Yes I do give you high marks for acknowledging Stone and you certainly set a good example here - a prerequisite for solid scholarship. The problem now is that you are too quick to dismiss Stone's historical role in uncovering Project Moon Dust without doing adequate research on how Robert Todd and Stone influenced, supported and/or collaborated with one another. >>On the one hand you imply that Stone is either deluded or a >>publicity seeking fraud in describing himself as active in the >>UFO crash retrieval projects. Yet your own book, and Stone's >>successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the >>existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as >>you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist >>positions, how would he have learned about the existence of >>these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their >>existence into the public arena? >By reading the information that had been published by others and >that clearly precede his involvement in the subject. Yes, that's one possibility. On the other hand, he may have helped others to open up a path that he was secretly walking and wanted the public to learn about. >>I would suggest that we have two possibilities here. One, Stone >>is a deluded and/or publicity seeking UFO researcher who somehow >>got lucky in uncovering official documentation proving the >>existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. >It wasn't luck - others had marked the path. >>Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service >>In classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon >>Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests >>since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their >>location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. > >As Sparks notes, Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney >Peter Gersten at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for >Gersten in the late 70's and 80's. I suggest Stone found out a >lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not >published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many 10,000's of >pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF and many >other agencies there was simply no way to publish it all). >A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >trail Todd blazed years before him. Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research and come up with similar results. This commonly happens in scientific research, ask Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz who discovered integral calculus at the same time independently of one another. >>My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible >>and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others >>lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's >>success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and >>uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. >Sparks wrote it proves nothing since it looks more like a ripoff >of Bob Todd's research, who was apparently the first to 'prove >the existence of Project Moon Dust and... its location at Fort >Belvoir,' or certainly Todd did so many years before Stone ever >got involved (there is a possibility someone 'uncovered' Moon >Dust even before Bob Todd, and of course before Stone who did >_not_ 'uncover' its existence). >Please note that the information was in the public arena before >Stone began his revelations, so it doesn't prove he was on the >inside, merely that he had read the UFO literature. It also says >a lot about him because he forgot to mention the role of others >in finding the information. First, there is no evidence that Todd learned of the discovery of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir. This is something that Stone established by initiating correspondence between the office of Senator Bingaman and the US Airforce. Stone established the location of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir and that is a significant acommplishment. I don't see why you or Brad Sparks should jump to conclusions such as Stone "ripping off" Todd's work. What evidence do you have to show for that other than Brad Spark's imagination? >>The implication is >>rather startling for those still debating whether UFO's are >>real, Stone did serve on UFO crash retrieval teams under Project >>Moon Dust, and his military records were altered to hide the >>actual training he performed and his military assignments. This >>of course leads to my own observations regarding the information >>Stone was told by his handler, a 'Colonel', who had the EBE >>guidebook describing 57 EBE groups that might be encountered at >>any UFO crash retrieval location. > >Sparks said it better than I could. The 'implication is rather >startling' that you would build such a ridiculous case on such >bogus and fraudulent falsification of FOIA history. Bob Todd got >the goods on Moon Dust as early as 1979 and Stone did not. > >>I look forward to your reply. > >I doubt this is what you expected. I'm interested in what it >would take to prove that Stone is not an insider, but a well- >educated (meaning here that he knows about the documents) >outsider who has created an interesting story. When he ran out >of documents to interest reporters and others, he injected >himself into the mix, telling ever increasingly bizarre stories >until he now mentions 57 alien races. I'm reminded of the great >scene in The Manchurian Candidate in which 'Johnny' is >complaining about the ever changing number of communists in the >State Department until they settle on 57, as in Heinz's 57 >varieties. >KRandle >Unretired from the military though there are publishers in New >York who seem to believe otherwise. Ironically, I think this exchange is the reverse of our earlier positions concerning the importance of documentary evidence. Here I'm basing my case on Stone's credibility as a whistleblower on his FOIA documentary research which is a matter of the public record and can be analysed and evaluated. You have based your response on a series of conjectures and opinions not based on anything other than your own and Brad Sparks' rather callous dismissal of Stone's testimony. Neither you nor Brad Sparks has offered anything to establish the thesis that Stone had somehow "ripped off" another researcher's work and basically misled an "innocent" UFO community ignorant about Project Moon Dust. As the author of a book on Project Moon Dust, you want us to now believe that you were one of those most misled by the wily Sgt Stone despite your own research efforts and citation of Robert Todd and others involved in Project Moon Dust research. Now you are dancing to the right piper played by Brad Spark's startling revelation that somehow Stone ripped of Todd Robert's work! Where's the evidence for this claim other than Spark's imagination and propensity for historical revisionism. Stone's FOIA documentary research was highly regarded by his peers in the UFO community, including initially yourself, and does help establish his credibility for his later public statements about participating in the classified projects such as Moon Dust. Brad Spark's imagination seems to be currently playing a more appealing tune for you rather than Stone's well grounded documentary research. I find that to be rather ironic given our previous communications.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:33:10 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:08:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook ><snip> >>>Too often individuals assume a >>>whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >>>prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >>>discredited because they have not been able to adequately >>>respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >>>pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >>>Corso.... >>>... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >>>as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >>>in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >>>clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >>>the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >>>files. >>This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >>show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >>alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >>by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >>became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >>a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >>his military records. >>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. >>snip< >Brad, Et AL, >The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. There are many incidents of people claiming false credentials. For example, Michael Wolf Kruvant, another individual, claiming 6 degrees, and championed by Michael Salla,gave that false info to both the New York Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science. I checked with both. Neither had checked. I did. He had none of the degrees. He also flunked out of Upsala - not a school he mentioned - and made a host of other false claims such as having been a USAF pilot, head of a major Research group (which existed only in his head)etc. Most committees accepting testimony ask for titles and bios. There is a bio of me, for example, in the Congressional Hearings on UFOs on July 29, 1968. I supplied it. They even wrongly called me "Dr.", presuming since all the other witnesses were, that I as a nuclear physicist, must also be. My bio showed I had no PhD. It is interesting that Corso in the 1992 congressional document is listed as Lt. Colonel.. not Colonel.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Salla's Support OF Meier [was: An Interview With From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:56:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:14:23 -0400 Subject: Salla's Support OF Meier [was: An Interview With >From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:07:51 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:28:41 +0100 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook [Discussing material from Michael Salla] >Chris, >I've read Salla's current revision of his July 26, 2004 report >on this subject. I found precious few attributions to material >offered by Mr. Stone and a sickening amount of discredited >material instead. Take for example, Salla's remarks about the >man we all know as The One-Armed Hubcap Tosser, Billy Meier: John, Many of us know better than to speak of Meier this way. So he could toss a hubcap up with one arm, then pick up his camera and photograph it, eh, and repeatedly capture its image when it's stationary? And a hubcap showing a row of "portholes" around the top, no less, and an underside with saucer shape? The craft that posed for him on all sides of an abies-alba fir tree was no model, since the tree was a mature one. If interested, see www.tjresearch.info/ufology.htm and www.tjresearch.info/moretree.htm for the details. There, K. Korff's disinformation on it is thoroughly refuted. >[Salla wrote:] >"One of the first 'contactees' to describe Lyra was >Billy Meier who received much public attention as a result of >his alleged visits from Pleiadians/Plejarans from 1975 to 1986 >which he supported with material evidence that continues to >confound those skeptical of Meier's claims. Comprehensive >investigations by a number of individuals and organizations >found that Meier's evidence was not fabricated and therefore >constituted significant support for his testimony of >extraterrestrial contact. Due to the amount of physical evidence >he had provided over the years, Meier has gained great >credibility, and the consistency and coherence of his >testimonies suggest that he is indeed an important spokesperson >for an extraterrestrial race." >Dr. Bruce Maccabee once wrote an article in the (CUFOS) >International UFO Reporter called, The Pendulum From The >Pleiades. In that article he demonstrated how the 'UFO' in a >Meier movie was actually a pendulum on a string. He even >calculated the length of the string used to suspend the 'UFO' in >the movie. Correction. He showed that if it was not a UFO undergoing pendulum-like movements, but rather a model UFO dangling from a string at the tip of a pole, the period of the pendular-like movements means the string would have had to be some 12' long. More recently, Bruce did an article for his website on this topic, see: http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html The newer aspect is that he analyzed the to-and-fro motions of the UFO, swinging back and forth just above the tree top, from which he could calculate its approximate distance away from the camera. It turned out to be around 50' away (55' he stated; somewhat less I estimate), and the tree would only have been some 3' tall. Consider what this means for the hoax hypothesis, in terms of the impracticality of the required length of a pole to support a model. If you read my response to this, at: www.tjresearach.info/BillyYes.htm (scroll down over half way) you'll read not only of other impracticalities in this instance, for a hoaxer with several needed accomplices, but of the fact that the camera viewed the underside of a distant farm house showing through beneath the canopy of this tree. Now a tripod-mounted camera 50' away from a three-ft tree, when viewing its lowest 1 foot of underside, will see only the grass and /or dirt under and a few feet behind the tree, not a house in the distance. Especially so when the terrain was no manicured golf course. Thus, the tree was a large tree standing in front of the house. In my response, I also listed quite a few cases wherein a UFO was observed to be undergoing pendular-like movements; surely that's no more difficult for such aliens to execute than are falling-leaf movements. At the end of his website article, Bruce did mention that he hadn't proven that the UFO was a model, and he advised the reader to judge for himself. Now, in the paper by myself, Haisch, Maccabee & Puthoff, republished in the MUFON journal of Jan. 2005, we mentioned that special attention needs to be paid to high quality UFO reports that indicate ET intelligence and strategy are involved. Gone are the days when ufology could ignore the likelihood that UFO aliens are smarter than we are. The UFO phenomenon as a whole, over the past half century, has shown that these aliens indeed appear to have a strategy of not breaking open our own self- imposed coverup. This has meant that they have frequently utilized their highly advanced technology and their brains to give negative skeptics ways out from being forced to believe what they are unwilling or unable to believe, and to keep scientists guessing. This has sometimes been called dishing out "plausible deniability." With all the evidence that certain aliens have supplied Meier, they must have had to be especially careful to include enough nuggets of plausible deniability so that they not be responsible for any premature breach of the UFO coverup. Causing a tree to disappear here and there is but a piece of this; showing themselves to a single contactee and to no others, not allowing their physical selves to be clearly photographed, passing out occasional disinformation to their contactees to relay to others, are other examples. I regard this inability of ufology to understand that UFO aliens can be smarter than we are and a bit more ethical also, as the remaining stumbling block towards progress in understanding the phenomenon. >To assert, as Salla does, that Meier's claims have withstood >serious investigation, is uninformed at best and disingenuous at >worst.... On the contrary, Salla has shown that he's pretty well informed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Johnson From: Donald Johnson <donjohnson.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:16:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Johnson >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:31:52 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:58:54 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >Hi John, >Thank you for your positive comments. While I would like to >think the Khoury DNA evidence is "the smoking gun", it is not >that yet. If the data can be replicated in multiple samples from >multiple cases, then perhaps we can be more confident in making >such assertions. However it is only one sample. Certainty, one >way or the other, alien or not alien, will come from further >evidence of this kind emerging from other cases. >Therefore I hope that by putting "Hair of the Alien" out there >for consideration it will alert abductees, researchers, >investigators and the general public, to the potential of the >DNA forensic and scientific approach. Getting evidence of this >type will help us all get to the bottom of the alien reality >question. For some of course there is no question. Abductees >experience this reality and have a conviction driven by the >realities they interact with. Skeptics reject the evidence, but >perhaps the approach I am advocating will help add weight to the >"critical mass" of compelling evidence. >Your comments and your situation are the reason why I dedicate >"Hair of the Alien" in the following way: "To all those who have >been touched by the alien abduction phenomenon, I hope this work >will help anchor your journey in reality, whatever that reality >turns out to be." Dear Bill, I certainly will have to read your book as soon as possible. As a board member of CUFOS I was aware of this important case back in the 1990s, especially as it appeared in IUR, but I am glad that you have followed through and provided more about it in book form. I have regarded this case with particular interest because it is the strongest evidence yet that the UFO aliens are not extraterrestrials but Homo sapiens masquerading as extraterrestrials. I do believe they are "aliens", however, because no known society has the technology displayed by the UFO phenomenon. It does suggest that the "aliens" are much more likely time travelers or visitors from a multiverse "parallel Earth." I should point out that the Peter Khoury sexual encounter is not an isolated case. In addition to the obvious parallels to the Antonio Villas Boas case in 1957, I can think of two more cases involving "Nordic Asiatics." I will run a query of UFOCAT
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:35:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:19:35 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Hatch >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:25 -0500 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:22:03 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>It reminds me immediately of a movie about the McCarthy era >>communist witch-hunts of the early 1950s. Pressed for the number >>of reds in Congress (or whatever) McCarthy is portrayed as >>glancing at a Heinz Ketchup bottle and announcing "57 card >>carrying commies" or the like. >There is some lingering controversy about which number McCarthy >used. On February 9, 1950, when he spoke at Wheeling, West >Virginia, a local radio station taped, but soon erased, the >speech. The station reported that McCarthy had said there were >205 Communists in the State Department (_not_ the Congress). He >did not make up this number; it came from a list (outdated by >the time McCarthy made use of it) prepared in August 1946 by >Truman's Secretary of State James Byrnes of persons who had been >recommended for termination within the department, which had >been (indisputably) infiltrated by Soviet spies in the '30s and >during World War II. (Alger Hiss is the most famous, though not >the only, example.) Owing apparently to confusion, many press >accounts from the period reported that McCarthy had said 57, not >205, at Wheeling. >>I paraphrase and name of movie escapes me, but the number 57 >>is/was clearly shown on the bottle. Heinz trademark was indeed >>"57 varieties". This suggests a leg-pull to me. >The next two days, in speeches in Salt Lake City and Reno, >McCarthy cited the 57 figure. The number came not from a Heinz >bottle but from a 1948 report of the House Committee on >Expenditures in the Executive Department. >None of this is to defend McCarthy, a vile and destructive >figure whose descendants continue to poison American politics >even today, but simply to set the historical record straight. Hi Jerry: All I wrote above was off the top of my head while making myself late for work. So there WAS some historical fact to the '57' number after all! Good. Rich Reynolds indicated the movie was the Manchurian Candidate, which escaped me. While there were some reds doing nasty stuff, I take it the scene with the ketchup bottle was Hollywood's way of implying the large numbers McCarthy threw around were pulled out of thin air. I'm in full agreement with your other comments BTW.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 UFOs Dump 'Space Junk' Over Mexico From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:36:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:23:57 -0400 Subject: UFOs Dump 'Space Junk' Over Mexico INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology July 28, 2005 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D SOURCE: El Manana (newspaper), Cd. Valles, San Luis Potosi DATE: Sunday July 24, 2005 UFOs Dump Space Junk Event causes commotion among eyewitnesses They were more than 10 and cast out strange objects over the Praderas del Rio and La Diana neighborhoods Story by: Antonio Martinez Chavez Photos: Francisco Montoya Lara Unidentified flying objects appearing in the skies over Ciudad Valles for the past 3 months have caused a commotion and a series of reactions ranging from fear to uncertainty. Their most important manifestation, however, occured on the 15th of this month at 2 p.m., when at least a dozen UFOs remained visible for nearly 5 minutes in the over the city's southwestern quarter and expelled what witnessed referred to as "space junk" Days later, on Thursday the 21st at 10:00 p.m. this same month, a new UFO remained stationary to the south of Valles, in the vicinity of the Regional Hospital, long enough to be photographed by a photojournalist with "El Manana". The case that has attracted the most attention due to the abundance of eyewitnesses, the time of day and the casting of unknown objects was the one that took place over the La Diana and Praderas del Rio neighborhoods. That day, as the temperature reached 40 Centigrade, Miroslava and Luz Esmeralda Martinez Hernandez, Prof. Ruth Sandoval, Mr. Enrique Sandoval and other persons residing along 16 de Septiembre Street in La Diana discovered - while they went about their daily activities and happened to look skyward - a long row of silvery, oval shaped and semi-circular objects moving slowly to the east of Valles and over the Valles River. "I counted some ten objects. Nine of them were small or at least appeared so at a distance. Then there was a larger one at the end of the row," said an excited Miroslava Martinez Hernandez. She explained, still overwhelmed, that some of the objects made pendulum-type motions, in other words, they rocked from side to side "like a baby's cradle" and when they largest object appeared they surrounded it, forming a kind of ring. "Look, they were exactly there," she said, point at a radio antenna atop a house in Praderas de Rio. "I even got the impression they were studying the antenna," she added. The account was corroborated by Luz Esmeralda, holding her child in arms while she explained the UFOs' movement and shape with hand gestures. "Yes, I also managed to see how they were shaped, moving very slowly. The largest was behind, but the one I saw was circular-shaped, like a plate," she added. Both indicated almost at the same time that detail that surprised them the most: that the objects expelled some sort of paper or metal sheets that were red and black in color. "The red was so bright that it even hurt one's eyes... could it have been self-luminous?" wondered Miroslava. "The objects expelled seemed to be moved along by the air, and they fell in different directions. We already went looking for them but couldn't find them." Prof. Ruth Sanchez Sandoval, a neighbor of Miroslava and Luz Esmeralda, stated while she pointed to the clouds at the sky at the time that "frankly, it seems to me they emerged from that cloud." She said that she was in the backyard of her house while her brother Rodrigo was inside. He had just arrived from the U.S. when the sighting occured. "I was stunned by what I was seeing, because although I'd had the opportunity to see UFOs elsewhere in the country, and even my husband Daniel Aguilar saw the army capture one of those objects in 1968, when it fell in Oaxaca, near Monte Alb=E1n, but it got away. This was different." What drew her attention, she explained, was that within the largest UFO there were yellow or orange lights, and the other smaller ones surrponded it. "Its as if they had been waiting and once together, began moving slowly and then vanished from sight. I wanted to record them with my brother's camcorder, but I didn't want to leave the spot to go and ask him." Ruth Sandoval explained that when she saw the UFOs they expelled red and black colored things. "To me they were hexagonal in shape, but very thin, like paper or metal sheets, and they fell in different locations." Facing Miroslava, Luz Elena's and Ruth's homes, Mr. Enrique Sandoval, at first hesitant, explained that he had in fact seen the very same thing as the women. "The only thing I disagree with is the number, since I managed to see some thirty objects in the same direction. They were metallic-collored and I also realized that they threw out things after being suspended for a long time." Prof. Sandoval explained that the UFOs were neither airplanes nor helicopters. They were noiseless, stood still in the air and then moved away slowly and then swiftly. The mystery that occupied the minds of all witnesses - there were more, but they were not available for the interview - was the nature of the objects cast out by the UFOs. Teacher Ruth Sandoval repeated the phrase: "Maybe they're dumpling space junk, but what if they're technological items unknown to us?" Despite the fact that the witnesses followed the route of the objects, no one could specify exactly where they fell. It could be that they dissolved or that they were sophisticated technological items programmed to fall in certain places, in the bush or underground, so that we could not see them," they said, full of uncertainty. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 US Army Computers 'Shut Down By Hacker' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:00 -0400 Subject: US Army Computers 'Shut Down By Hacker' Source: The Daily Telegraph - London http://tinyurl.com/atasl 28/07/2005 US Army Computers 'Shut Down By Hacker' By Catriona Davies A Briton facing extradition to America for perpetrating "the biggest computer hack of all time" left a message criticising American foreign policy on an army computer, a court heard yesterday. Gary McKinnon, 39, is accused of accessing 97 US government computers, causing damage estimated at $700,000 (=A3370,000). An extradition hearing at Bow Street magistrates' court was told that McKinnon, of Wood Green, north London, deleted files that shut down more than 2,000 computers in the US army's military district of Washington for 24 hours "significantly disrupting governmental function". It was claimed he left a note on an army computer in 2002 saying US foreign policy was "akin to government-sponsored terrorism". The note allegedly said: "It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year. I am Solo. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels." McKinnon is accused of 20 counts relating to the American army, navy and air force, Nasa and the Department of Defence. One allegation is that he deleted files and logs from computers at the US Naval Weapons Station Earle at a critical time after the Twin Towers attacks, rendering the base's network of 300 computers inoperable. Mark Summers, for the American government, said: "The defendant was acting from his own computer in London. He effectively owned those computers by virtue of the software he had transmitted. His conduct was intentional and calculated to influence and affect the US government by intimidation and coercion." It is also alleged that McKinnon obtained secret passwords or information which might become "indirectly useful to an enemy", and interfered with maritime navigation facilities in New Jersey. When McKinnon was indicted, Paul McNulty, the US attorney for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:55:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Warren >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spar ks >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 EDT >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:43 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook ><snip> >>>>Too often individuals assume a >>>>whistleblower is discredited simply because one or more >>>>prominent researchers simply declare a whistleblower is >>>>discredited because they have not been able to adequately >>>>respond to a criticism or because an inconsistency has been >>>>pointed out. A very clear example is criticism of Col Phillip >>>>Corso.... >>>>... some have criticized him for alleging to have served >>>>as a member of the National Security Council (something he said >>>>in his Affidavit two months before his death), when he was very >>>>clear previously that he had only served as a staff member of >>>>the NSC, something substantiated by his military record and FBI >>>>files. >>>This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >>>show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >>>alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >>>by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >>>became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >>>a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >>>his military records. >>>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. >>snip< >>Brad, Et AL, >>The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >>On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >>"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >>Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. Brad, >You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? Huh? How did you interpret that? I have merely made an observation (and announced it) and asked a question. >His military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >personally called him a "rat"? As I recall Corso denied these allegations and nothing ever became of them. (Going by memory... correct me if I'm wrong). Moreover "Hoover's" comments about anyone doesn't garner points with me. In addition the DeLoach Jones FBI memo refers to Corso as "Operations Coordinating Board (OCB), National Security Council." (In the same breath). >These guys on Congressional committee staffs are not prescient >geniuses, analytical whizzes, brilliant detectives who catch >subtle discrepancies or vigorously research every item, every >witness, every allegation. Congress has nowhere near the budget >that the Executive Branch has, so how could Congress hire enough >staff to check out every fact? >Clearly Corso told the Committee staff what must have been his >standard fib, that he had been an NSC "Staff" member during the >Ike administration. As I pointed out before and as his military >records show this was not true. Both the OCB and the CIA >reported to the NSC but a CIA employee does not get to list "NSC >Staff member" on his/her resume'. >The armed forces are headed by the President, the Commander in >Chief. Does every soldier doing latrine duty anywhere in the >world then get to put on the resume' "White House Staff"??? I >think not. Here's the deal for me Brad, Corso wasn't and really still isn't "my cup of tea" so to speak; I took for granted that he was a scoundrel based on other people's research (OPR). (Making assumptions on OPR is of course "always a mistake!") One of these individuals I have the utmost respect for; however, when I received his records (Corso) I was impressed with the size for one and all the accolades for two. I found myself questioning why a man with such an impeccable record would lie about anything. The NSC from its origin blossomed into an entirely different animal in short order; the conundrum for me was did Corso "intentionally lie," or did he believe what he was saying? I.e., could he get away with stating he was in the NSC - you say no and make valid points for it. You also cite Hoover and the FBI for evidence anout Corso's character; yet that same FBI "lumps the OCB and the NSC 'together." In addition, the few that I have spoken with that have met Corso "felt" he was a very sincere man. In the end I am left with more questions.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:57:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:07:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Kaeser >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] <snip> >>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. >You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His >military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >personally called him a "rat"? >These guys on Congressional committee staffs are not prescient >geniuses, analytical whizzes, brilliant detectives who catch >subtle discrepancies or vigorously research every item, every >witness, every allegation. Congress has nowhere near the budget >that the Executive Branch has, so how could Congress hire enough >staff to check out every fact? >Clearly Corso told the Committee staff what must have been his >standard fib, that he had been an NSC "Staff" member during the >Ike administration. As I pointed out before and as his military >records show this was not true. Both the OCB and the CIA >reported to the NSC but a CIA employee does not get to list "NSC >Staff member" on his/her resume'. >The armed forces are headed by the President, the Commander in >Chief. Does every soldier doing latrine duty anywhere in the >world then get to put on the resume' "White House Staff"??? I >think not. Brad, I wouldn't paint the Congressional staffers as "clueless", but certainly the amount of checking would depend on many factors. I believe that Corso's testimony before Congress was related to POW issues, and was being sought as that of an expert in the subject area, and not as an adversarial witness. As you note, unless there was a reason for the staff to question his resume, they'd likely accept it as presented. But if his testimony related to a more controversial subject that he was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov 4-6 From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:04:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:10:07 -0400 Subject: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov 4-6 www.ufoconference.com www.majesticdocuments.com Announcing the 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference, Nov 4-6 First 25 Sign-Ups Get FREE Proceedings! BROOMFIELD, CO July 28, 2005 Announcing the 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference, the worlds only public event dedicated exclusively to compelling evidence, aftermath and implications of crash retrievals. The conference starts Friday afternoon at 4:00 PM, November 4 through Sunday afternoon, November 6 at the Embassy Suites Hotel and Convention center in Las Vegas, Nevada, just minutes from the airport and downtown. Details are available on www.ufoconference.com, the first 25 to sign up get a free copy of this years proceedings! Friday afternoon lectures are followed by a meet-the-speakers open bar event and panel discussion. Fourteen leading UFO researchers and investigators will present their latest findings over the weekend along with a gala banquet and keynote address Saturday evening by noted author Jim Marrs. This years conference speakers include investigative journalists Jim Marrs and Linda Moulton Howe, alien implant expert Dr. Roger Leir, national security expert Richard Dolan, Alien Autopsy film British expert Philip Mantle, antigravity researcher Dr. Tom Valone, author Peter Robbins, archeologists Chuck Zukowski and Debbie Ziegelmeyer, 1st hand crash witness and investigator Reme Baca, Police Officer and investigator Ken Storch, British UFO author Nick Redfern, claims of reverse engineering investigators Drs. William Hamilton and Robert Wood and UFO crash retrieval researcher Ryan Wood. Speaker abstracts: Speaker biographies: Conference attendees can anticipate the latest hard data on numerous crashed UFOs, off-world artifacts held in secret government facilities, the strange truth behind the Alien Autopsy Film controversy, extensive reverse engineering of UFO technology discussions, and new never before discussed UFO crash retrievals and much more. Ryan Wood will also present his new hardback book Majic Eyes Only an encyclopedia of every credible UFO crash known to civilian investigators. Registration: Be one of the first 25 to sign up for the full conference ($159) and receive this years conference proceedings for free a $30 value. If you need more information or would like to talk with me personally please call 720-887-8171. Sincerely, Ryan S. Wood Conference Chairman rswood.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:30:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:12:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:52:25 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >What was supposed to have been so important about this outer >coating. Don, It would appear that rather than the coating being so important as such for what it was, the concern was that if someone found that as well as the balloons, this might give an indication that it was not just an innocuous balloon flight - such as a weather balloon - and that there was another component too. That's the same thinking re the body that Brazel found - there was nothing overly special about it. But if anyone found it, it would give an indication that this was more than the average balloon test. >A body I could understand if it was mutilated and possibly >Japanese but there should have been no reason for it to have >been burned if that is one of the reasons wht it looked "alien". To the best of my knowledge, the body was not burned. On page 116 of the book, the Colonel-interviewee states that the body was "Japanese-looking, small, smashed, decomposing." But no burned comments. >Can you be more specific about the other things, or must I >purchase the book? I understand if you don't want to give >everything out on these Lsts. No you do not have to buy the book, and I have no problem at all discussing the various facets of the book on-List. It takes time though! And some of us - such as me - are not retired from work where we can devote all day to UFO discussions! But to the best of my ability and time allowing, I have no problem re discussing. Re the "other things" it was just literally that one part of the aircraft (which might - the military feared - if the wrong person found it, suggest this was not a routine balloon flight
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:16:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Ledger >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spar ks >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone <snip> >>>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. ><snip >>Brad, Et AL, >>The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select >>Committee On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso >>as: >>"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >>Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. >You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His >military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >personally called him a "rat"? Just thought I'd throw this in with no real interest in the thread. Being called a "rat" by a loathsome piece of garbage like Hoover
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:19:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spar ks >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone <snip> >>Brad, Et AL, >>The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >>On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >>"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >>Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. >You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His >military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >personally called him a "rat"? >These guys on Congressional committee staffs are not prescient >geniuses, analytical whizzes, brilliant detectives who catch >subtle discrepancies or vigorously research every item, every >witness, every allegation. Congress has nowhere near the budget >that the Executive Branch has, so how could Congress hire enough >staff to check out every fact? >Clearly Corso told the Committee staff what must have been his >standard fib, that he had been an NSC "Staff" member during the >Ike administration. As I pointed out before and as his military >records show this was not true. Both the OCB and the CIA >reported to the NSC but a CIA employee does not get to list "NSC >Staff member" on his/her resume'. >The armed forces are headed by the President, the Commander in >Chief. Does every soldier doing latrine duty anywhere in the >world then get to put on the resume' "White House Staff"??? I >think not. What follows is a description from the Robert Cutler who wrote an official history for the CIA about his experience while serving as Eisenhower's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs. Cutler served on the Psychological Strategy Board, the NSC Planning Board and the Operations Coordinating Board from the years 1951-58: http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0001.htm This is what Cutler said about the structure of the NSC and the roles of the Planning Board and the Operations Coordining Board: "Under President Eisenhower, the normal procedure for operating the policy-making aspects of the NSC mechanism has involved three main steps. First, the NSC Planning Board formulates recommendations as to national security policy and circulates them to Council members and advisers well in advance of the Council meeting at which they are scheduled to be considered. Then the Council considers and approves or modifies or rejects these recommendations, and submits to the President such as it approves or modifies. Finally, the President approves, modifies, or rejects the Council's recommendations, transmits those policies which he approves to the departments and agencies responsible for planning their execution, and-as a rule where international affairs are concerned-requests the NSC Operations Coordinating Board to assist these departments and agencies in coordinating their respective planning for action under the approved policies." http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. While Executive Order 10700 formally incorporating the OCB into the NSC occurred in 1957 after Corso left the OCB, the OCB was clearly a key part of NSC system during Eisenhower's administration, and was referred to as such by those like Cutler who served on the OCB. Similarly, the FBI record on Corso refers to him being on the NSC OCB. Cutler's historical record and the FBI file both support Corso's claim that the OCB was part of the NSC. So Col Corso was not fabricating his role as an NSC staff member when describing his service on the OCB. While it is true that the OCB was created as an independent agency in 1953 by EO 10483, it was part of NSC system created for oversing interagency efforts to coordinate covert policies. The OCB did not become part of the NSC with its statutory incorporation in 1957, but was already a de facto part of the NSC process and was referred to as such. I believe your error here is based on a too literal reading of the de jure process of executive orders used to create, modify or abolish working groups or agencies. There is also the de facto process that needs to be considered which meant that the OCB was a de facto part of the NSC prior to its de jure incorporation in 1957. Consequently, Col Corso was correct in describing himself as a staff member of the NSC during his service on the OCB. Both the official CIA history and the FBI file both explicitly refer to the "NSC Operations Coordinating Board" that existed while Corso was serving on the OCB, and not just after 1957. Corso was accurate in his description of his role in the NSC and was no liar as some contend.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Is The Truth Out There In Eccles? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:46:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:46:23 -0400 Subject: Is The Truth Out There In Eccles? Source: The Salford Advertiser - Manchester, UK http://tinyurl.com/82cby 28th July 2005 Is The Truth Out There In Eccles? by Christopher Brereton Could this picture of a strange silver shape in the sky prove that the truth is out there - in Eccles? Is it, as UFO experts are suggesting, evidence that aliens are making a regular Saturn to Salford round trip? One of the men who spotted the UFO, is in no doubt as to what he saw above him in the Eccles sky. Philip Sotomski, 31, said: "I would like to point out that I am a big sceptic as far as UFO sightings are concerned but in some ways this only makes me more determined to show the photos to people and to try and get some kind of answer about them." The spooky shape was spotted flying by Mr Sotomski and four of his colleagues at 10am on July 10 this year. Above them, on Half Edge Lane, Eccles, they saw the object travel across the sky at great speed, followed five minutes later by another extra-terrestrial entity. Mr Sotomski is adamant about what he saw and is willing to take a lie detector test. He added: "Myself and my colleagues know what we saw whilst not knowing what the object was. "We are all professional people and quite frankly have better things to do with our time than to make wacky e-mails or photos. We all feel that what we saw was totally unexplainable." Chris Parr, from the British UFO Hunters, said:"I have applied the latest photographic and computer technologies available and I can confirm that the mysterious object is a solid mass with curvatures and sharp right angles. "I have evaluated and solved many hundreds of UFO cases and the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:33:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Warren >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:27:29 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone <snip> >>This is still more a load of hogwash! Corso's military records >>show he _never_ served as an NSC "staff member" either, let >>alone as a "member" of the NSC (a Cabinet level requirement set >>by statute, the National Security Act of 1947). The NSC Staff >>became the NSC Planning Board on March 17, 1953. Corso was never >>a staff member of the NSC Planning Board either, according to >>his military records. >>Corso served as a staff member of an "independent agency," >>something called the OCB from Feb 24, 1954, to Oct. 20, 1956, >>according to his records, _not_ as a staff member of the NSC. ><snip> >The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. Good Day Paul, >Frank: >The answer seems fairly simple to me - Corso provided his own >biography, which was not vetted (why would they double-check - >he was a WWII vet with a fairly solid military career, and >hadn't yet started to spew his Roswell bunk). Yours, Brad's and Stan's analysis of the Congressional doc is sensible to me. >This happens more often than you might think with government. In >my books, it provides some early evidence that Corso's problems >with the truth did not just begin with The Day After Roswell. This is my query... did he "intentionally" lie? >Given the choice between his official record, and the >information you cite, I'll take the official record any day. No >gray basket required. The information I cited _is__ an "official record," which you state is in error. Speaking of which, here is another statement from "officialdom" (The White House): "The OCB was the coordinating and implementing arm of the NSC for all aspects of the implementation of national security policy... the NSC was a huge committee, and suffered from all the weaknesses of committees. Composed of representatives of many agencies...." So, the Congress accepts Corso's credentials as NSC, which admittedly, and certainly "can be in error." The FBI refers to the "OCB" as "Operations Coordiating Board (OCB), National Security Council" and the White House's "History of the NSC" desribes the OCB as "the coordinating and implementing arm of the NSC." Again, Eisenhower's NSC "system" evolved dramatically from the original NSC that was borne by "The National Security Act of 1947." Still it leaves me with more questions--did Corso ever deny being in the OCB? Was his argument that the OCB was part of the NSC as indicated by the afore mentioned statements? Is this an issue of a man stating an outright lie? Or is this an issue of you say, "tomahto," and I say, "tomayto?"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:58:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >>should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >>abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >>experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >>I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >>determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >>speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >>believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. >I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >2004). >Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's >Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) >leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away >from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that >applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe >that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies >when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves >something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly >assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. > Nonsense. You are presupposing, misqualifying, and anthropomorphizing again. I'll bet Edmond Locard was not remotely thinking about alien traces beyond the scope of your pompous assiduousness, and you dissemble, Sir, to suggest that he has. I'm reminded of the ant... crawled out, even arduously and bravely, to the end of the picayune bottom twig it's found itself upon to believe that it has scaled the tallest sequoia tree and _understands_ the whole of the forest. Tirelessly, you continue to use a carving tool as a walking staff and I'm sure you're enough of a 'scientist' to realize what your results can be expected to be as a result of misused implements in relation to data outside your experience. Your method presupposes a common human criminal with an intelligence somewhere on the left half of the Bell curve who leaves a nose hair, takes a trophy, and plays by _your_ conjectured rules. As Einstein is to have pointed out to 'give 'em Hell' Harry Truman when Truman was of a mind to try to shoot down UFOs buzzing the District of Columbia in 1952... "If they can get _here_...," I paraphrase, " they can take care of themselves." >If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. How's the air out that twig? >I don't think the >intelligence behind the phenomenon enters and leaves the point >of interaction while completely violating Locard's principle. Of course not, given the assumptions blithely made here. Which assumptions? That these 'visitors' are unaware of a forensic principle we've only uncovered in the last 100 years and change... that mainstream science is remotely interested in the investigation that would require them to re-think cherished scientific canards they thought rock solid, that mainstream science would risk offending the corporate masters slopping their trough... that the "intelligence behind the phenomenon" can be outwitted by a mainstream science given to mistaking miles for meters on significant occasion... that the "intelligence behind the phenomenon" would be tricked into your test tube at all... et al. >Clearly, if the Khoury case is legitimate, it doesn't. Clearly? >This case >may be showing us that the intelligence behind the phenomenon, >despite its sophistication, is subject to Locard's Exchange >Principle and does contaminate the scene, although in most cases >the contamination is not as obvious as a hair wrapped in the >foreskin of the person at the center of the event. And not near as attractively and distractingly salacious, either. >If we are waiting to secure evidence in the nature of a 'jacket' >inadvertently left on the bed or an anal probe accidently left >on the nightstand then I think we're going to be waiting >forever. I remarked earlier about persons actually having experience with anal probes, Sir. These are not near so cavalier regarding their reference and jackets don't figure into the literature anywhere enough to provoke a look-out for them. Maybe you were just trying to be cute. >Using available forensic technology and techniques to >detect the perhaps minute cross-contamination of the scene that >may be occurring could possibly secure enough evidence to show >something is really happening - even if detectable cross- >contamination occurs in only a percentage of cases. (It probably >occurs in all cases but often could be beyond our current >abilities to detect.) What you so casually allude to here is a full scale, honestly considered, very well funded Manhattan Project type investigation that will not be achieved, or called for, with a few of the fringe afficiado badly sealing drug-store Q-tips into sandwich bags. I suspect you know that only too well... and are comfortable, then, with an endorsement of it. >I concur as well that the label is not the important point but I >do get uneasy with the label 'alien' as this has strong >connotations of 'extraterrestrial' in this field, despite the >fact that the word can refer to human beings, as in 'illegal >alien' being used to describe a person in a country without >authorization. To the contrary, Mr. Frison. I submit that this and other labels are _very_ important to you or what would be your label for someone like myself? >Without a doubt, the 'hair' is fascinating, >intriguing, and anomalous. And weird, intellectually ephemeral, and non-conclusive... whatever it is, or is not, found to actually _be_. That a presupposing and scientistic (sic) ideologue such as yourself would spin wheels of endorsement on it (even presuming perspicacity of the work) is not that surprising... it's no endorcement. I'm reminded of the otherwise goodhearted born again Christian willing to sign on to W's now galloping corporatism and looming fascism because he looks earnest when he reports that he talks to God... and that God talks back. Moreover, it's not _just_ good science that is required for closure on this subject. There has always been good science, Mr. Frison. What did it get Dr. James McDonald? Good science, all by itself, is not the panacea you would pretend it to be. >But I think it can just as easily >belong to one of a number of human beings who are part of an >older civilization evolved on Earth; human civilization may be >older than we think. Which is really the same kind of wild blueberry horse-muffins as 'ET', and as equally, _not_ born out in your slight-of-hand 'scientistics' either..... >That is not to say ET is not involved in >the UFO mystery, only that ET may be communicating with an older >human group on this planet. There's no stone to step to there, either... >We may wonder why UFO's haven't >communicated with us after all this time after coming all this >distance but they may indeed be communicating with humans all >this time, just not our 'modern group of civilizations.' Maybe... but all's you _really_ know is that they have not tried to contact _you_... and that's not sure. >They >may think the modern groups are too violent or not progressed >enough for full, open communication yet but have had (and >maintain) a long-term, ongoing relationship with certain >inhabitants of our planet. This would explain, also, an older group of humans... maybe Bigfoot folk, and techno-wizard aliens incapable of securing the health of the planet for themselves and this conjectured older group? >These two groups working together >could also explain why abductees have noticed humans among the >so-called aliens during their episodes of interaction with the >UFO intelligence. The conspiracy theories saying our governments >are secretly in cohoots with the aliens might be a wrong >explanation of why human beings and alleged ETs are seen >together during abduction episodes. Conspiracy is real and most possibly likely. http://www.alienview.net/conspire.html >The above are meant only as possible alternatives to the 'alien' >label and not be to construed as being part of my position on >UFOs. Sir... no one is holding you to a deadlock-nut on a ufological conundrum for which you are willing to appeal to the most facile or twig-crawling authority... and then to vaguely suggest anyway, ironically enough. But why not... you seem to otherwise ape the most 'authoritative' noises on this subject forgetting that they appear to congeal to the 'authoritarian' soon enough. >Nothing has been proven yet so I'm kind of uncomfortable with >labelling the hair as 'alien' especially when it seems to have >such strong human characteristics, and explanations other than >'alien' (if by 'alien' it is meant as in extraterrestrial) have >not been ruled out. Mr. Frison, you say this like there is not a six level preponderance of evidence... wide, long, and deep... and extant enough to completely smother the paucity of _your_ meager contributions to a solution. >I observed my first UFO more than thirty >years ago, when my mother was fortunate enough to peer inside, >for an extended period of time, a domed-disk at eye level from >less than six feet away. Even after more than thirty years of >looking into this mystery, I can honestly say I don't have my >mind made up on anything and am still confused as to what it was >we saw that night. Funny. I remain unconvinced that you, or your mother, saw anything at all. Indeed, I suspect a loss-leading fable to connote acceptance and a mantle of acceptability... only to prosecute a dodgy scientistic ethic which has thrown down every barrier it can in the last 50 years precluding even a scintilla of closure... in _all_ that time. >Any subjective, personal thoughts or feelings >explaining it to myself have long dissolved, because if you stay >objective then you have to admit that we haven'y solved it yet. I suspect you would be more comfortable in its never being solved, Sir, and count your beads and pray your explications dogmatically to that end. On your inability to make up your mind? It is your un-conflicted and experienced subjectivity that gives your quality objectivity any value at all. >Thus, I am not sure we should be calling 'the hair' alien, >especially when this word smacks so strongly of ET. Yet - you (or your mother) walked up and looked into an Alien craft from 6 feet away? >But I >completely agree with you in that the label is not the important >issue - the strange characteristics of the hair and the >circumstances of how it came to be in Khoury's possession are >the real issues. The real issue is your ready willingness to label and prejudge the issue (and those interested in real closure on it) given an evidentiary standpoint already well larded with facts and statistics and physical evidence ... but which you overlook in favor of the salacious bizarre... and I say that with all respect to the honor and effort of the men involved with the exercise you allude to and do not presuppose otherwise, myself, on its validity or value at all. Win, lose, or draw on the outcome of their presumed honorable effort... it won't matter. Consider: Richard Hall has produced the... single work... that should be necessary to justify a Manhattan Project for UFOs, in some 650 pages, hundreds of references, and thousands of citations. "The UFO Evidence - A Thirty Year Report..." stands monumentally among other studies of equal worth... to no avail. The "Project" is not forthcoming... And... it's not loons and Whackos precluding the aforementioned "Project," as you well know, Mr. Frison... it is the intellectual cowardice of those in a position to know better, the institutional bigotry of agencies charged with our elevation and improvement, and the jealous obstinacy of arrogant individuals clinging to the notion that Humanity is at the center of the universe and that the universe itself was created for the benefit of same... I would suspect that they... and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Secrecy News -- 07/28/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:12:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:00:36 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/28/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 71 July 28, 2005 ** THE RUIN OF J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER ** KENNEDY ON SECRECY ** SOME MORE CRS REPORTS THE RUIN OF J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER The rise and fall of J. Robert Oppenheimer, who led the Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb and later had his security clearance revoked, is among the most compelling political dramas of the twentieth century. The story is brilliantly retold in a new book by Priscilla Johnson McMillan entitled "The Ruin of J. Robert Oppenheimer." The Manhattan Project, with its enormous secret budgets, its compartmentalization and cover stories, was the matrix for the cold war secrecy system that remains with us today. If Project leader Oppenheimer was the "father" of the atomic bomb, who did more than any other individual to ensure the success of the U.S. nuclear weapons program, then the 1954 Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) hearing which resulted in the loss of his security clearance was an oedipal revolt writ large. Of course, the story is complicated and enriched by Oppenheimer's human failings, as well as his real security infractions and his admitted pre-war membership in "nearly every fellow-traveling organization on the West Coast" (though he denied being a member of the Communist Party). In Priscilla McMillan's account, based on two decades of interviews and archival research, secrecy is integral to the story at every stage, from the internal government debates over the pursuit of a hydrogen bomb to the illegal monitoring of Oppenheimer's conversations with his attorney. "In the case of Robert Oppenheimer," writes Ms. McMillan, "the deviations from what we consider basic rules of our democracy were so egregious that even today, half a century later, the story still stirs our consciences and makes us wonder what it was all about. It was about many things. One of them was our government's decision to move to a new and deadlier level of the nuclear arms race without telling the American people." "This book is a look at the people and events that led to the destruction of J. Robert Oppenheimer." "There are stories like it today." "The Ruin of J. Robert Oppenheimer and the Birth of the Modern Arms Race" by Priscilla J. McMillan has just been published by Viking. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670034223/104-1261678- 4756712 Priscilla McMillan is a Harvard historian, a former FAS Council member, a Secrecy News colleague since the secrecy battles of the early 1990s, and author of the enduring classic "Marina and Lee" about the JFK assassination. KENNEDY ON SECRECY "We need to return to our core values of openness and accountability," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) on the Senate floor yesterday. Sen. Kennedy took the better part of an hour during the Senate debate on a gun liability law to lambaste the Bush White House for its secrecy policies, covering everything from overclassification to the CIA leak case to the Vice President's Energy Task Force, and much more. "Under the Bush administration, openness and accountability have been replaced by secrecy and evasion of responsibility. They abuse their power, conceal their actions from the American people, and refuse to hold officials accountable." Sen. Kennedy made at least two commonplace errors when he stated that "Last year, a record 15.6 million documents were classified by the Bush administration." According to the Information Security Oversight Office, there were 15.6 million classification *decisions* in FY 2004, which does not translate directly into 15.6 million classified *documents* (it could be much more). And though this represents a huge increase over recent years, it is not a record high number. The ISOO reported more than 22 million classification actions in FY 1985. See Sen. Kennedy's July 27 remarks on secrecy here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/s072705.html SOME MORE CRS REPORTS Recent reports of the Congressional Research Service include the following. "Pakistan-U.S. Relations," updated July 26, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB94041.pdf "Pakistan: Chronology of Events," updated July 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21584.pdf "Supreme Court Appointment Process: Roles of the President, Judiciary Committee, and Senate," updated July 6, 2005: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/50146.pdf "Women in Iraq: Background and Issues for U.S. Policy," updated June 23, 2005: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/50258.pdf "D-Day: The French Jubilee of Liberty Medal and the 60th Anniversary Commemoration on June 6, 2004, and Events for June 6, 2005," updated May 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS20900.pdf "Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21007.pdf "Republic of the Marshall Islands Changed Circumstances Petition to Congress," updated May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32811.pdf "Sri Lanka: Background and U.S. Relations," updated May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31707.pdf "Exemptions from Environmental Law for the Department of Defense: An Overview of Congressional Action," May 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22149.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Debris at the Foster Ranch From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:16:47 -0400 Subject: Debris at the Foster Ranch List, In the wake of the publication of my Body Snatchers book, I have been contacted by various people (as usually happens with most authors) claiming to be able to fill in a few gaps in the story. I am working on a paper that will detail the new sources and data, and that is an-going situation re. interviewing those sources. However, one letter-writer provided a story and refused to enter into follow-up debate. For that reason, I am sharing it with the List, as I can go no further with him. He worked in the DoD in the 70s, and stated that part of his job was focused upon determining the then-current capabilities of Soviet radar and forecasting likely future trends and developments in that area. He has gone as far as he feels he comfortably can in terms of divulging what he knows about the Roswell events and how he knows; and, for that reason and no other, I am opening up his information to the List. Basically his story comes down to this - that at least one test of the type cited in Body Snatchers involved a flight-test of a prototype aircraft in conjunction with the dispersal over a specific area of the New Mexico desert of tinfoil type materials - as was done during the Second World War - as a way of off- setting the value of radar in terms of tracking the device, and that the prototype aircraft involved crashed. His statements and descriptions sound very much like the crash at the Foster Ranch that have led to the Roswell story. I now wonder if possibly the picture of what happened at Roswell as cited in my book has an extra angle to it as well. The sources I interviewed for the book admitted that - decades on - they did not recall every minute detail. I would have been highly suspicious if they did. See page 118, final paragraph for specific data on this latter point. According to the sources in the book, the Roswell event was an attempt to create a hybrid style device (a combination of aircraft and balloon) that failed. The new source, however, claims that while this was indeed correct, an extra component of that same experiment involved the dispersal of the aforementioned tinfoil to determine its value in affecting the ability of radar to adequately - or "correctly" might be a better term - track this device. Therefore, it may be that some of the materials found at the Foster Ranch were not just from the balloon and the aircraft, but that some it might have been the aforementioned tinfoil that was to be used in this experiment. This theory does have some merit. In a 1947 FBI memorandum, the Assistant Director, Edward A. Tamm, D.M. Ladd of the Bureau's Domestic Intelligence Division wrote: "The Director advised on August 14, 1947, that the Los Angeles papers were carrying headlines indicating that Soviet espionage agents had been instructed to determine the facts relative to the flying discs. The article carried a Washington date line and indicated that Red espionage agents had been ordered to solve the question of the flying discs, the Russians being of the opinion that this might be some new form of defense perfected by the American military. The article further recalled that during the recent war pieces of tin foil had been dropped in the air for the purpose of off-setting the value of radar being used by the enemy forces and that these aluminum discs might be a new development along this line. The Director inquired as to whether the Bureau had any such information." Ladd advised Tamm that with regard to the theory that the Soviets were looking, they had "no information relative to such a story." However, what is particularly interesting is that this official FBI memorandum and the news article makes a specific connection between flying discs and pieces of tinfoil being "dropped" in an attempt to foil radar. The important thing is that we may now have an even more intriguing mix of materials at the ranch. Not just balloon materials and small pieces of aircraft wreckage, but tinfoil type materials that were to be utilized in a radar-related experiment focused upon tracking the device. Before people dismiss this, remember that it is none other than the FBI expressing concern in mid-1947 about a news article that makes a specific connection between flying discs and pieces of tinfoil that could be "dropped" and that "these aluminum discs might be a new development along this line." I would suggest that this new revelation might be important and we would do well to focus at least some of our attention on these tinfoil drop-tests in New Mexico in the summer of 1947 (in conjunction with test-flights of unusual prototype devices), to determine if this is the origin of some of some of the materials found on the Ranch or even in conjunction with other events in that era and within NM. One valid point made on-List was whether or not a balloon would actually explode into small fragments and create the type of debris field as found at the Foster Ranch. But if some of the material was already fragmented tinfoil to begin with - as per this radar experiment and as per this FBI document - then this might answer the question of why we have some people at the site talking about balloon debris (Cavitt, Bessie Brazel Schreiber) and others talking about smaller fragments of material. Notably, Marcel stated that "we picked up fragments." And Mack Brazel's son, Bill, said it was "something on the order of tinfoil." I submit that these could be _exact_ descriptions of this material used in the radar aspect of the experiment/crash and that the fact that it was _already _fragmented_to_begin_with is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 28 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:36:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:19:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:46 -0300 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spa rks <snip> >>You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His >>military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >>witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >>background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >>no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >>order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >>months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >>someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >>and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >>FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >>personally called him a "rat"? >Just thought I'd throw this in with no real interest in the >thread. >Being called a "rat" by a loathsome piece of garbage like Hoover >isn't necessarily a condemnation of one's character so I >wouldn't present that as an argument, Brad.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:59:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:32:46 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' - Rudiak >From: Brad Sparks <>B47x.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:13:22 EDT >Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >Gildas has been having trouble getting this message to you >without the format getting mangled between servers. >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:48:30 -0500 >>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:01 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' >>>The first Gallup Poll on the subject, >>>released on August 14, 1947 ("now that the uproar over the >>>'flying saucers' has subsided"), uncovered so few respondents >>>mentioning ET explanations that they went unlisted in the >>>results. ><snip> >>The idea of UFOs as ET visitors blossomed in the 1950s, for a >>number of reasons that are too complicated to go into here. It >>is certain, however, that a week after Kenneth Arnold's >>sighting, military investigators operated without our modern >>ideas of what a flying disc is supposed to be; they would not >>have thought automatically of a spaceship when they were sent >>out to a debris field where an unidentified aerial vehicle had >>crashed. If anything, they would have expected to find something >>secret and earthly. <snip> >What comes out of all this is, on one hand a public campaign of >debunking, and on the other hand an active policy of collection >of information on UFOs, with the extraterrestrial hypothesis >duly considered in high military circles. >Now, what could be the public opinion on flying disks? You say >that the Gallup poll of August 14 proved that nobody believed in >flying saucers as possible "space ships", so that the question >was not even mentioned. Not mentioned in the results, or not >asked ? That's not completely clear to me. But anyway, what is >very clear is that the poll arrived after a good month of >intense debunking in the press. We know how the public opinion >can be manipulated, especially at a time when the public had >great confidence in the government and the military. Yes, this is a very important point. There were no polls taken prior to July 9, when the Roswell weather balloon story came out and a campaign of active military debunking began. The military debunking post-Roswell is neatly summarized in the opening sentence of the UP Roswell story of July 9: "Reports of flying saucers whizzing through the sky fell off sharply today as the Army and Navy began a concentrated campaign to stop the rumors." For more details of the military debunking, see: http://www.roswellproof.com/militarydebunk.html and for the various press accounts on Roswell: http://www.roswellproof.com/Press_Coverage.html Another aspect to the debunking not documented on my website was the many reports of hoax disks being found, such as in Louisiana, Houston, Los Angeles, Idaho, and elsewhere. The debunking was very effective. Far fewer UFO sighitngs were reported in the newspapers after July 8, quite unlike the situation before then when the newspapers were full of them. Ridicule is a very effective propaganda tool. The public was basically being told that the flying disks were either misidentified weather balloons or hoaxes post-July 8, and you were foolish to think otherwise. Newspaper editorials chimed in that the public was probably still suffering from war nerves and the June/July reports were just typical summer "silly season" foolishness. Heavy ridicule like this is certainly going to skew the results of a poll taken only a month later. Nonetheless, I think Jerry Clark and others are basically correct that alien spacecraft was way down on the list of possibilities in the public's mind even before the widespread debunking began. Probably most thought people were just imagining or misidentifying things; next was the saucers were real but either a secret project of the U.S. or maybe Russia. Probably a distant third was alien spacecraft, but the idea was certainly out there, from the news stories I've read from that time period. And there was also some public anxiety over the flying saucers being reported. An example of both that leaps to mind, was at the end of the Daily Illini story of July 9 after Ramey's weather balloon debunking became the official story: "That was the word that many editors had been hoping for. A solution might be more than embarrassing. It might be calamitous. What if there really were 'men from Mars!'" http://www.roswellproof.com/AP_Chronology.html The Chicago Tribune story of July 9 also briefly mentioned public anxiety, referring to a "disk-jittery nation" and "platter panic" ended by the weather officer's identification that brought "relief to a worried public." http://www.roswellproof.com/Chicago_Tribune_July9.html The "men from Mars" theme was also being humorously expressed in nationally syndicated columns by Hal Boyle, talking about the green man from Mars piloting a flying saucer. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to go through my collection of press clippings for other instances of where the idea of extraterrestrial origins was raised in either a serious or put- down way by civilians, but I know there were other instances, including "man in the street" type interviews and some letters to the editor. >I just wish to add that, yes, the ideas of space travel and >alien visitors were very popular, at least since the thirties, >in the United States, as demonstrated by the agreat abundance of >magazines devoted to the subject. So, I just cannot believe that >nobody, or almost nobody, would have had any such idea regarding >the mysterious flying disks. And that officers in Roswell had no >idea either, considering also the inquiries >going on in the Air Force about them. Another instance of "men from Mars" being brought up was public debunking of the new flying saucer phenomenon by, ironically, General Ramey and his head intelligence officer, Colonel Kalberer, 8-9 days _before_ the Roswell story broke on July 8, and only 4 days after Kenneth Arnold's sighting was first widely reported. Kalberer, in particular, was to bring up the idea, also mentioned the Orsen Wells "War of the Worlds" incident of 1938 that triggered some public panic, and referred to the saucer's as "Buck Rogers stuff." http://www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_and_Kalberer.html "Col. Alfred F. Kalberer, 8th Air Force intelligence officer... [gave] renewed assurance Tuesday [July 1] that "we're not being invaded by little platter-like planes from Mars..." "Kalberer cited the Orson Welles radio program a few years ago which dramatized a mythical Martian invasion and caused a sensational commotion, 'and of course,' he added, 'there was the case of the men in Tokyo who thought they had seen a sea serpent.'" Both Ramey and Kalberer were also obviously familiar with Kenneth Arnold's sighting and his supersonic 1200 mph estimate of speed and tried to dismiss it: Ramey: "Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, commanding general of the 8th, said he thought persons making the reports 'have been seeing heat waves. Nine planes aren't likely to be doing formation flying at 1,200 miles an hour,' Ramey added. He referred to an earlier report that nine disks flying in formation had been seen moving at supersonic speed." Kalberer: "He said the estimated 1,200 miles an hour was probably wrong, and that the planes might have been jet propelled craft doing about 450." "'They're such friendly little discs,'" he laughed. 'They seem to flip around and do all sorts of kittenish antics, at varying altitudes in daytime and by the light of the moonlight and in formation at that, at supersonic speeds of 1,200 miles an hour or more.' ...the 'triangulation' of the pilot flying near Pendleton, Oregon, last week when he reported the discs flying in formation between Mount Rainier and Mt. Adams could easily have been mathematically erroneous." I find it interesting how Ramey and Kalberer were already out there debunking so early in the game, and it may have had something to do with widely publicized flying disks sightings already coming out of the El Paso region and nearby White Sands. Another military officer who was already publicly debunking was Colonel Harold Turner, C/O at White Sands missile range, who tried to explain numerous widely reported fireball sightings in the White Sands area on June 27. At first he said people were probably seeing the exhaust ports of jets, quickly followed by people were probably seeing meteors. Turner made the rather bizarre claim that the meteors were "coming closer to the surface of the earth" making them "appear much larger" and they "might look like a shiny disc if caught at a certain angle in the sun's rays." http://www.roswellproof.com/nm_ufo_reports.html Another high-profile sighting at White Sands by highly qualified witnesses, well-known in ufological circles, was on June 29 by three Naval missile experts. Although this wasn't widely reported until July 8 in the newspapers, people like Turner were doubtlessly aware of the sighting before then. Another indication of military concern that can be found in the above collection of UFO reports was a short item I found in the Las Cruces Citizen from July 18, reporting on a sighting by two local families from the night of July 8. The families reported seeing a large light coming from from direction of El Paso to the south, traveling at a terrific rate of speed and with a tail like a comet. (This followed immediately after 2 sightings in El Paso, with the object reported streaking off to the north.) As it passed between Las Cruces and the Organ Mountains to the east, it burst into three pieces. Immediately, according to the article, search lights went up from the White Sands Proving Grounds east of the mountains and "searched the skies for an indefinite length of time." This is the only newspaper item I've been able to find about military bases in the New Mexico area being on a heightened state of alert. It might be considered anecdotal, yet I find it extremely interesting. In fact, if you look at the UFO reports, you'll find that July 8 was one of the UFO "hot days," with numerous sightings being reported in NM and immediately surrounding areas. My point is there was obviously concern about UFOs by higher military officers, as in part evidenced by their rather lame debunking so early on. They were also well aware of numerous glowing objects being reported traveling at high speed, including Kenneth Arnold's report. There would not have been concern if they thought these objects were secret projects of ours, and I seriously doubt they thought the high-speed aspect of the reports could be explained by people seeing balloons. That leaves Russian devices or the objects coming from somebody else, i.e. aliens. I think at least the possibility that these objects might be extraterrestrial must have crossed their minds, judging by the comments of people like Kalberer about "men from Mars" and "War of the Worlds," even if said in a dismissive fashion. I might add here that people like Marcel at Roswell also had UFO sightings before the Roswell incident blew up, and a short description is included in the above collection of UFO reports. Marcel's story was that he was called by the base provost marshal, Edwin Easley, around 11:30 at night, and told to get out to the base immediately. As he was driving out there, Marcel said he saw a V-shaped formation of lights flying at high-speed overhead. When he got to the base, he said Easley reported seeing them as well. That anecdote would suggest Roswell base was on a state of alert as well, even before Mack Brazel came to down to report his debris field. So would the anecdote reported in Karl Pflock's "Roswell in Perspective," as told by ex-CIC agent Maj. William O'Brien. The information was allegedly given him by ex-CIC agent and his commanding officer Maj. Russell Womack, who was stationed at Roswell base during July 1947. The story goes that there was considerable activity among CIC agents at Roswell Army Air Field during early July, who were posted to watch the skies with binoculars at night. Also go through the compendium of UFO reports linked to above, and you'll also see the Roswell papers reporting on UFO sightings from the Roswell and other nearby areas well before July 8. Unless the people at Roswell base couldn't be bothered to read the newspapers (like our current President), they would have been well aware of such reports. People responsible for security at the base, like Marcel and Easley, must certainly have stayed on top of such information and been relaying it on up to superiors. Again note that a number of these reports were of objects traveling at high speed or engaging in unusual maneuvers. The point is there are numerous indications that officers like Marcel or Blanchard (or even Sheridan Cavitt of the CIC) at Roswell might very well have been considering the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:36:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spa rks >>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone <snip> >>>Brad, Et AL, >>>The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >>>On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >>>"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >>>Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >>>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. >>You're saying that Corso lied in his military records??? His >>military records show OCB service not NSC. Corso like all >>witnesses to a Congressional hearing provide their own bios or >>background and unless the bio is an issue in the hearing itself >>no one checks these out. What is the Committee going to do, >>order Corso's military records from St. Louis and wait a few >>months before they do anything??? Why would they care unless >>someone had tipped them off that Corso had a history of lying >>and fabrication, going back to at least the early 60's when the >>FBI caught him fabricating an official document and Hoover >>personally called him a "rat"? >>These guys on Congressional committee staffs are not prescient >>geniuses, analytical whizzes, brilliant detectives who catch >>subtle discrepancies or vigorously research every item, every >>witness, every allegation. Congress has nowhere near the budget >>that the Executive Branch has, so how could Congress hire enough >>staff to check out every fact? >>Clearly Corso told the Committee staff what must have been his >>standard fib, that he had been an NSC "Staff" member during the >>Ike administration. As I pointed out before and as his military >>records show this was not true. Both the OCB and the CIA >>reported to the NSC but a CIA employee does not get to list "NSC >>Staff member" on his/her resume'. >>The armed forces are headed by the President, the Commander in >>Chief. Does every soldier doing latrine duty anywhere in the >>world then get to put on the resume' "White House Staff"??? I >>think not. >What follows is a description from the Robert Cutler who wrote >an official history for the CIA about his experience while >serving as Eisenhower's Special Assistant for National Security >Affairs. Cutler served on the Psychological Strategy Board, the >NSC Planning Board and the Operations Coordinating Board from >the years 1951-58: > http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0001.htm >This is what Cutler said about the structure of the NSC and the >roles of the Planning Board and the Operations Coordining Board: >"Under President Eisenhower, the normal procedure for operating >the policy-making aspects of the NSC mechanism has involved >three main steps. First, the NSC Planning Board formulates >recommendations as to national security policy and circulates >them to Council members and advisers well in advance of the >Council meeting at which they are scheduled to be considered. >Then the Council considers and approves or modifies or rejects >these recommendations, and submits to the President such as it >approves or modifies. Finally, the President approves, modifies, >or rejects the Council's recommendations, transmits those >policies which he approves to the departments and agencies >responsible for planning their execution, and-as a rule where >international affairs are concerned-requests the NSC Operations >Coordinating Board to assist these departments and agencies in >coordinating their respective planning for action under the >approved policies." > http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. <snip> Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July 1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! By 1958 when Cutler left, it was indeed an "NSC Operations Coordinating Board." But it was _not_ any such thing in 1954-6 when Corso was on the OCB staff. Was Cutler supposed to footnote every word of his memoir to exactly identify dates when those words precisely applied? No I think not, he applied the terminal description of the NSC in the structure as it existed when he left it in 1958, when the NSC had indeed had the OCB merged within its structure pursuant to Presidential Executive Order 10700. Your national security history is skewed and biased, tendentiously designed to desperately find some out-of- context quote to misinterpret in support of Corso, who clearly lied about serving on the NSC staff, when it was in reality the OCB staff, contrary to his own military records which say nothing about the NSC or an "NSC Operations Coordinating Board," since no such entity existed in 1954-6. Corso did not provide the kind of clever but false clarification that you have attempted by referring to something like an "NSC Operations Coordinating Board," nor an "NSC OCB" or any such thing that did not in fact exist in 1954-6 when he served on the OCB, when the OCB was still 'independent' of the NSC. He just flatout lied and perjured himself saying he was a "member" of the NSC (which would be a Cabinet rank position!) in his April 1998 Affidavit, and/or at other times said that he had been an "NSC Staff" member. Nothing about "OCB" at all when he talked about his alleged service on the NSC. Thus Corso's military records trip him up, proving him a liar, as they show service on the OCB not on the "NSC." If we adopted your false view of national security history, there would have been no need for Ike to issue an Executive Order merging the OCB into the NSC. By your reasoning the OCB was always a part of the NSC. So Ike's Executive Order must be a fabrication, a figment of the imagination in your crazy pro- Corso pro-nutball view. When OCB was still 'independent' of the NSC it was not functioning effectively because of that very separation from the NSC. As a result, William H. Jackson prepared a study that recommended to President Eisenhower on Dec. 31, 1956, that the OCB be "integrated" into the NSC. Eisenhower agreed, overruling the dissent of Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, and issued Executive Order 10700 on Feb. 27, 1957, merging the "independent" OCB into the NSC effective July 1, 1957. Apparently, in order to defend Corso's blatant lies, you must view Jackson's study of the OCB's ineffectiveness due to OCB's separation from the NSC structure, as a mirage, a nonexistent document. To you the fact Jackson had to conduct such a study must be a joke. To you Eisenhower's endorsement of Jackson's recommendation to merge the OCB into the NSC was a needless and pointless exercise -- or maybe it was a fabricated history
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:26:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:41:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Ledger >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>To: ><ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:30:24 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 >>14:52:25 -0300 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>Can you be more specific about the other things, or must I >>purchase the book? I understand if you don't want to give >>everything out on these Lsts. "Must" was probably a poor choice of a word. >No you do not have to buy the book, and I have no problem at >all discussing the various facets of the book on-List. It >takes time though! And some of us - such as me - are not >retired from work where we can devote all day to UFO >discussions! Well I am retired, as you've alluded to, but that makes me poorer so I have to be selective re my purchases. Seriously. The reason for not purchasing at this point is that this Roswell, and/or/whatever scenario, is of concern at the moment, including the theme of your book and the Mogul theory isn't really my area of interest, much less expertize. I jumped in because of the aviation association. The more I read on the List of this thread, the more I am intrigued, so you are going to end up costing me money - not to mention an argument with the money manager I am married to. As for sitting around at a computer all day, where did you get the idea that retirement was free of work - not to mention loosing weekends, holidays and vacation? BTW - I'm sending you a question off-line which has nothing to do with this thread.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:38:50 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:43:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Ledger >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:36:47 -0300 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:46 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Sp arks >>Being called a "rat" by a loathsome piece of garbage like Hoover >>isn't necessarily a condemnation of one's character so I >>wouldn't present that as an argument, Brad. >I don't disagree about Hoover, but remember that Corso called >him his good buddy. Apparently Hoover didn't reciprocate. >Stan Friedman Maybe Corso rebuffed Hoover or made nasty remarks about his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:47:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:45:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Velez >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:54:22 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:07 -0400 >>Subject: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage ><snip> >>I have posted a Quicktime video-clip at the following URL that >>is derived from Graham Birdsall and Martyn Stubbs' documentary >>video, 'The Secret NASA Transmissions'. >>http://www.virtuallystrange.com/aic/MIR.html >>The footage is of the Russian MIR Space Station and was recorded >>by a Russian TV crew while filming a documentary of their own. >>Apparently 'something' or 'someone' was very interested in >>checking out the MIR space station that particular day. Note the >>'double' radar targets on the tracking screen where there should >>only be one, the MIR. >>Begs the question, what, or who, is producing the second radar >>blip? It appears to be the large bright object (hovering at the >>MIR's 5 o'clock position) that is visible in the video as >>'other' objects navigate to and fro around the station. <snip> >The "second radar blip" is the U.S. Space Shuttle Atlantis after >it undocked from the Russian Mir Space Station (November 18, >1995) and photographed it from space. Hello Nick, If you look at the segment of the video where the camera records the time and date data on the 'big board' you'll see that the footage in question was being recorded on November 10, 1995. That's a full 8 days _before_ the scheduled undocking procedure you cited above. Here are the days stats: http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/status/stsstat/1995/nov/11-10-95.htm As you can see, the Atlantis wasn'r even launched until the 11th. The day after this was recorded. Also, if as you say the 'blip' is the Atlantis why don't we see the shuttle anywhere near the MIR? If the image of round object that is hovering just to the right of the MIR throughout the recording is the US Shuttle Atlantis, then there must be two of em, Nick. One that looks like the shuttle shape we are all familiar with, and a second one that looks like a 'burning sphere'. The Russian cameraman must have captured the 'second shuttle' on video. If what you say is true and it is the shuttle, (and all the stats from the NASA site above say the shuttle is on the ground) then what is the second large object that traverses the screen from top to bottom just right of center screen? It is identical to the object hovering directly in front of the MIR. Two shuttles? Both the objects in question are slightly flattened spherical shapes with a plume coming off to the right side. Both objects including the flashing one is giving off that odd looking energy/fire, 'plume' from the right side of the objects. The detail is hard to see on the other objects that are navigating around the MIR because they appear so small. (Distance?) All of the visible 'plumes' on the spherical objects are pointing -away- from the MIR. If Newtons law holds any water, that would propel the objects (multiple) -towards- the MIR. If the shuttle had been there when this was recorded I'm certain the familiar shape of the space craft would be unmistakable. >Fellow Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield was on this shuttle >(mission STS-74) which visited Mir. He did not notice anything >strange and unexplained during this space flight - at least >anything he cared to share with us. I'll see your Canadian Astronaut who saw nothing, and raise you the testimony of a Russian cosmonaut that did 'see something!' And not just 'anything' either. Can you guess 'what' he reported observing in space? That's right, a 'sphere'. The following brief testimony/report is from Russian MIR cosmonaut, Gennadi Strekalov who spent more than 6 mos. on the MIR. Strekalov reported observing a large, well-defined glowing sphere flying over the Pacific. "It was greenish in color. You couldn't take your eyes off of it. It shone like a ball on a x- mas tree." The whole report can be heard on the same video the MIR footage is taken from. This phenomena is not so easily blown off or explained, Nick. I can imagine that a lot of the reports of this phenomena conflict with your fundamentalist Christian beliefs. Regardless, this is something that demands much more attention to detail than the 'quick and easy' dismissal you have given it here. Like it or not... there's more here than meets the eye. "Drunken aliens", I don't think so Nick. This is something inscrutable
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:00:50 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:47:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Boone >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >Subject: Debris at the Foster Ranch <snip> >Notably, Marcel stated that "we picked up fragments." And >Mack >Brazel's son, Bill, said it was "something on the order of >tinfoil." >I submit that these could be _exact_ descriptions of this >material used in the radar aspect of the experiment/crash and >that the fact that it was _already _fragmented_to_begin_with is >what led Marcel to erroneously assume it had exploded in the >air >and rained down debris. >Nick R. Nick excuse me if I missed the data, but did you cover the reports by Marcel and others of debris that was very strong and couldn't be burned or have these stories been dismissed? If so, where do you have it noted in your latest book?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:44:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:50:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Gehrman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Spa rks >>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone <snip> >Accurate and important historical information. >Consequently, Col Corso was correct in describing himself as a >staff member of the NSC during his service on the OCB. Both the >official CIA history and the FBI file both explicitly refer to >the "NSC Operations Coordinating Board" that existed while Corso >was serving on the OCB, and not just after 1957. Corso was >accurate in his description of his role in the NSC and was no >liar as some contend. Michael, Brad, Frank, List, The following links support Michael's conclusion: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/aug/m16-020.shtml http://www.caus.org/membercomments/mc062900.shtml Col. Corso may have made some mistakes but he wasn't lying. A Voice Stress Analysis is a scientific instrument and all results can be replicated, if recorded. It can't be written-off as some kind of kook BS since many law enforcement agencies include VSA in their investigative toolkits. I've been using VSA for many years and don't understand why more researchers don't accept it and employ it. So far my success rate is 100% using hired annalists, but there are VSA instruments and programs for use by the general public. Aristotle Onasis had a VSA machine on his desk, disguized as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:00:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:52:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Rudiak >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:30:24 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:52:25 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>What was supposed to have been so important about this outer >>coating. >It would appear that rather than the coating being so important >as such for what it was, the concern was that if someone found >that as well as the balloons, this might give an indication that >it was not just an innocuous balloon flight - such as a weather >balloon - and that there was another component too. That's the >same thinking re the body that Brazel found - there was nothing >overly special about it. But if anyone found it, it would give >an indication that this was more than the average balloon test. >>A body I could understand if it was mutilated and possibly >>Japanese but there should have been no reason for it to have >>been burned if that is one of the reasons wht it looked "alien". >To the best of my knowledge, the body was not burned. On page >116 of the book, the Colonel-interviewee states that the body >was "Japanese-looking, small, smashed, decomposing." But no >burned comments. >>Can you be more specific about the other things, or must I >>purchase the book? I understand if you don't want to give >>everything out on these Lsts. >No you do not have to buy the book, and I have no problem at all >discussing the various facets of the book on-List. It takes time >though! And some of us - such as me - are not retired from work >where we can devote all day to UFO discussions! But to the best >of my ability and time allowing, I have no problem re >discussing. >Re the "other things" it was just literally that one part of the >aircraft (which might - the military feared - if the wrong >person found it, suggest this was not a routine balloon flight >of a weather balloon type or something equally innocuous), and >the remaining body. Nick, I realize your time is restricted and you must be going crazy trying to respond to people, but numerous, very serious problems with your scenario remain unanswered or were answered in a very unconvincing way. Balloon crashes do not create debris fields as described by people like Marcel, Rickett, or Brazel Jr., consisting of a long, linear path of debris made up primarily of _small, metallic pieces_ with various, very anomalous physical properties, such as extreme lightweight, memory properties (snap back to its original shape leaving no creases), extreme rigidity (very thin but couldn't be bent even with extreme pressure applied), porosity (Marcel's "metallic fabric" that he could blow through, could not be cut or torn, and which could not be made to burn or smoke. Again, descriptions of these properties and the shape and size of the debris field from various people can be read at: www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html If this was a balloon crash, as you have stated, with only an intact piece of the shell of the glider attached, then the vast majority of the material should have come from the balloon(s) and been some sort of obvious balloon material. But that is _not_ what was described. Balloons are not made of metal, and, even ignoring this, other normal balloon materials such as some sort of rubber, or plastic, or _non-porous_ fabric, do not shatter into pieces when they hit the ground and make numerous, small pieces looking like metal. "Aluminized polyethylene" is nonsense, since it isn't going to shatter, and its physical properties are not even remotely close to what was described. Polyethylene is the same material that the plastic bags at the neighborhood grocery store are made of. It is easily cut and burns like crazy. "Aluminized polyethylene," if it even existed then, would be mirror shiny, whereas most (though not all) of the metallic debris descriptions were of a dull metal, resembling lead foil or maybe unpolished aluminum. [I notice as I write this, that Nick Redfern in another, just- sent post, tries to respond to the many metallic fragments objection, with, the theory that might have been radar jamming chaff that, for inexplicable reasons, was supposedly dropped along with the alleged balloon/glider. Not only does that make no sense (you would want to track your super-secret craft, not jam the radar so you couldn't track it), but it is also absurd on multiple other grounds. First of all, the chaff was made of foil/paper, the same stuff made to use the radar targets, but also the exact same stuff used to wrap chewing gum and candy bars back then and now. Nobody would be confused by it, not for a second. More importantly, how would such paper foil be blown by air currents a minimum of 50 miles from White Sands, if not much more, and end up in a very confined area, as described by Marcel, Rickett, and others. In fact, such a scenario is literally impossible. And thirdly, foil/paper does not explain the anomalous properties of the metallic debris, any more than aluminized polyethylene. Unfortunately, many of Nick's attempts to patch up the many enormous holes in his theory are just as far-reaching and nonsensical as this one.] Point two: The only witness testimony I'm familiar with, at least in the public arena, about Brazel finding bodies came from Frank Joyce. When I spoke to Joyce, he said that when Brazel came to Roswell and first contacted him, he at first expressed concern about the vast quantity of debris on his ranch and how he was going to clean it up. Joyce said Brazel was in a highly agitated state and he sensed more to the story and pressed him. That's when, according to Joyce, Brazel said that he had also found bodies, not a body, but more than one body, that stank to high heaven. Brazel said it was horrible. Joyce said he responded that they were doing all sorts of experiments out at White Sands and maybe the bodies were monkeys. According to Joyce, that's when Brazel responded angrily that "they aren't monkeys and they aren't human." First, according to Joyce, Brazel spoke of more than one body. Second, Brazel was quite insistent that the bodies weren't human and smelled absolutely horrible. The terrible smell Brazel spoke of suggests a very advanced state of decomposition and/or very unusual chemistry. Brazel was a rancher and no doubt seen and smelled a few dead sheep in advanced decomposition in the hot desert sun. But there was something especially bad about the smell and the sight of these bodies that disturbed Brazel. Even a badly mangled and decomposed human corpse is still recognizable as such. Something must have been very different about these bodies to make Brazel strongly insist that they weren't human. Even if we ignore Joyce's story about multiple, stinky, nonhuman bodies found by Brazel, your scenario still makes no sense for a number of reasons, some of which I've pointed out before. 1. Recovery of the body would have been high priority, as you yourself acknowledge. You have also stated, as above, that recovering the piece of shell of the glider also would have been high priority. Yet there were at least two days, if not more, between Brazel finding his debris field (and maybe bodies), reporting it to Roswell, Marcel/Cavitt investigating and returning to base, and still no recovery teams in sight. The large debris field would have been easy to spot from the air. According to you, the test was in the afternoon somewhere on the White Sands Range (where exactly isn't specified), the glider detached, but left part of its shell behind, meaning that it was badly damaged. A damaged _glider_ isn't going to go very far, and would have crashed very near to where the alleged test disaster occurred. Recovery teams would have quickly been all over it, and quickly noticed a missing body and part of the craft (according to your scenario). At that point, again according to you, recovering the balloons along with the missing craft part and body would have become high priority. Yet Brazel didn't find the debris until the next morning (assuming the crash happened the previous evening) and Marcel/Cavitt didn't return to the base until the next evening. So that alone is a minimum of over 2 days from mishap and still no high-priority recovery teams find the crash site and show up there. Your colonel claims this was simply "bad luck," another lame attempt to patch over an enormous hole in the story, that makes no sense. Also left unexplained is the seeming absence of any tracking that should have led to quick recovery of the balloons. At the very least, they should have had a very good idea of which direction they were headed when last seen and which way the winds were blowing. All they had to do was look down-range. The bozos running this operation were not only criminals, they were also incredibly incompetent. 2. Could you explain to me how a body strapped into the glider (again according to your scenario) could become attached to the balloons and be carried clear to the Brazel crash site from White Sands. What did this guy do--hang on by his fingertips? Yes, I know the colonel said they were "mean little f___ers", but really.... This also sounds very much like another statement in your book that a drone aircraft carrying chimps through an atomic cloud at the Nevada Test Site was somehow the basis of the story of the Kingman flying saucer crash of 1953. Even assuming such a drone test, left unexplained is how a drone designed to fly only a short distance, could end up in Kingman nearly 200 miles away.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:07:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:59:50 -0400 Subject: Re: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov >From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:04:48 -0700 >Subject: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov 4-6 <snip> >BROOMFIELD, CO July 28, 2005 Announcing the 3rd Annual UFO Crash >Retrieval Conference, the worlds only public event dedicated >exclusively to compelling evidence, aftermath and implications >of crash retrievals. The conference starts Friday afternoon at >4:00 PM, November 4 through Sunday afternoon, November 6 at the >Embassy Suites Hotel and Convention center in Las Vegas, Nevada, >just minutes from the airport and downtown. Details are >available on www.ufoconference.com, the first 25 to sign up get >a free copy of this years proceedings! <snip> >This years conference speakers include investigative journalists >Jim Marrs and Linda Moulton Howe, alien implant expert Dr. Roger >Leir, national security expert Richard Dolan, Alien Autopsy film >British expert Philip Mantle, antigravity researcher Dr. Tom >Valone, author Peter Robbins, archeologists Chuck Zukowski and >Debbie Ziegelmeyer, 1st hand crash witness and investigator Reme >Baca, Police Officer and investigator Ken Storch, British UFO >author Nick Redfern, claims of reverse engineering investigators >Drs. William Hamilton and Robert Wood and UFO crash retrieval >researcher Ryan Wood. Speaker abstracts: Speaker biographies: <snip> Folks: Althought I will not be present at the conference, as it was my original plan, I have sent Ryan Wood a full and updated report on the Varginha Case, January 20, 1996, to be included in the proceedings. I just cannot understand a crash and retrieval conference
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:35:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:04:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - Jamieson >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:41:59 -0700 >Subject: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore I see some areas here where I am not too clear (after getting a chance to re-read this). First, the post was wriiten after reading Ed Komarek's latest blog entries. See: http://exopolitics.blogspot.com >The Exopolitics movement developing within ufology is an >interesting cultural event, one that I think is akin to many >cult like movements. Since the 1980s, a storyline has been >developing regarding the nature of the government's involvement >with UFOs. Basicly, that story entails the government operating >in a very deep covert way to get all it can from "aliens" it has >developed some sort of quid pro quo relationship with. These >"aliens" are deemed to be bad guys and the covert governmental >players associated with them are judged to be somewhat dark >forces who desire to hold back the "evolution" of our culture. >Exopolitical analysts identify not only "demons" in this story. >There are also, they say, the good guys who desire to serve our >growth, our evolution. (This is largely based on channeled >information and the "reports" of contactees.) >There's a peculiar dynamic here. One I just discovered (sadly) >in posts by Ed Komarek at this list, dating from the spring of >1997. He came here to initiate a campaign to "stop" Kent >Jeffries from presenting his changed views on Roswell! He also >attacked Kal Korff for his views on Roswell. He now proposes at >his blog working with "good guys" (or, "celestial humans) at his >blog: http://exopolitics.blogspot.com He still apparently >proposes (in his writings there) the existence of "black hat" >operators working at odds to our benefit. I don't describe this dynamic too well. What I meant is this: whenever a "debunker" says his thing, many find that to be a part of a covert government operation. For example, Ed had a thing several years ago re: Karl Pflock. Pflock was (if I remember right) an employee of the CIA and also a member of NICAP. While many people find this suspicious, I don't. Pflock was just interested in UFOs! But, because he felt (in more recent years) that Roswell involved the retrieval of a Mogul Ballon.....well, he must be working as a covert disinformation agent! >My point is that Exopolitical analysts are presenting us with a >classic story of good guys vs. bad guys based on a developing >folklore over the last two decades. A folklore based on >"whistleblowers" and "contactees". >This, IMO, is setting the stage for quite an interesting >movement. One that I think is based on a lot of delusional >thinking (and not on a reality based approach). >The only way to see that this type of thing doesn't infect >negatively the ufo field as a whole is to expose it for what it >is: a cultic movement in the making. The Exopolitics Institute has aligned itself with at least two contemporary personality cults. One originates from France (Eric Julien/Jean Ederman, EI Board member) and the other from South America (Sixto Paz Wells). While I may feel both Julien and Wells are con men (no nice way to say this, unfortunately), I don't see Salla trying to stage a con. But, he aligns himself with these contemporary frauds and with the old time favorties (Adamski, Menger,etc). The Exopolical ideology includes the notion now that 9/11 was staged to create a distraction from an extraterrestrial presence. It includes the notion that a one plus trillion dollar black budget exists to deal with ETs! (That's annual, btw; obviously Salla doesn't say this money comes from taxes. They come from the drug trade and front companies.) Notions like this create a psychological environment whereby its adherents will suffer (imo) delusions of persecution, grandiosity, and the like. (i.e. Have to watch out for the black ops guys! And, we got to be the ones who work with the Space Brothers to correct this situation.) At some point, one can only hope that the cognitive dissonance will get so acutely uncomfortable that these folks wake up. Judging by the posts I see at his site, it seems many are extremely entrenched in this dark vs. light world (that they have created for themselves). Given that fundamentalist
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:35:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:06:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? - Rudiak >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:32 EDT >Subject: Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? >Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin? >I have been looking for some additional information about >this officer but have been unable to locate much. Can anyone >update me about him. Much of his Disclosure Project testimony on Roswell, UFOs, etc., can be found at my website:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:26:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:12:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Rudiak >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >Subject: Debris At The Foster Ranch >In the wake of the publication of my Body Snatchers book, I have >been contacted by various people (as usually happens with most >authors) claiming to be able to fill in a few gaps in the story. >I am working on a paper that will detail the new sources and >data, and that is an-going situation re. interviewing those >sources. However, one letter-writer provided a story and refused >to enter into follow-up debate. For that reason, I am sharing it >with the List, as I can go no further with him. >He worked in the DoD in the 70s, and stated that part of his job >was focused upon determining the then-current capabilities of >Soviet radar and forecasting likely future trends and >developments in that area. >He has gone as far as he feels he comfortably can in terms of >divulging what he knows about the Roswell events and how he >knows; and, for that reason and no other, I am opening up his >information to the List. >Basically his story comes down to this - that at least one test >of the type cited in Body Snatchers involved a flight-test of a >prototype aircraft in conjunction with the dispersal over a >specific area of the New Mexico desert of tinfoil type materials >- as was done during the Second World War - as a way of off- >setting the value of radar in terms of tracking the device, and >that the prototype aircraft involved crashed. This, as I've noted in another post today, makes zero sense, for a number of reasons. If they were following any test protocol I've ever seen or heard of for experimental aircraft, especially ones which you claim were so supersecret because they were allegedly carrying human guinea pigs, they would have been carefully tracking the flight with chase planes, ground radar, visual observations, radio beacons, and the like. They wouldn't be jamming their own radar. Even if one assumes they would have been so stupid as to be jamming their radar, such radar jamming would only prove effective if they were dropping the foil in the vicinity of the flight itself, which according to you was over White Sands. White Sands is 50-60 miles from the Foster Ranch at even its closest point to the north, which begs the question, if your sources story was true, how the strips of radar chaff could be carried by the wind and be deposited in a highly confined debris field at the Foster Ranch. That scenario is essentially impossible. Conversely, the only way to create a confined, linear field of radar chaff would be a direct drop at low altitude over the Foster Ranch. However, being 50-60 miles minimum from White Sands, plus being low altitude, this would have zero effect on radar at White Sands. See the conundrum? The whole story is internally inconsistent not to mention ridiculous. >His statements and descriptions sound very much like the crash >at the Foster Ranch that have led to the Roswell story. I now >wonder if possibly the picture of what happened at Roswell as >cited in my book has an extra angle to it as well. The story is basically impossible, and what it really sounds like to me is a team of disinfo agents divying up a disinfo story and trying to cover all angles. The Foster Ranch was littered with small metal debris and that can't be explained with a balloon. OK, we'll have one of our guys say there was radar chaff drop and hope nobody thinks too closely about it. >The sources I interviewed for the book admitted that - decades >on - they did not recall every minute detail. I would have been >highly suspicious if they did. See page 118, final paragraph for >specific data on this latter point. Page 118 is the chapter on "The Colonel." So is this source with the radar chaff story the anonymous colonel? >According to the sources in the book, the Roswell event was an >attempt to create a hybrid style device (a combination of >aircraft and balloon) that failed. >The new source, however, claims that while this was indeed >correct, an extra component of that same experiment involved the >dispersal of the aforementioned tinfoil to determine its value >in affecting the ability of radar to adequately - or "correctly" >might be a better term - track this device. Again, this explanation makes zero sense and can't possibly explain how many small, anomalous metal pieces showed up at the Foster Ranch debris field. >Therefore, it may be that some of the materials found at the >Foster Ranch were not just from the balloon and the aircraft, >but that some it might have been the aforementioned tinfoil that >was to be used in this experiment. Total rubbish, for all the reasons mentioned above. And how does radar chaff square with the descriptions of extremely tough, unburnable, untearable, uncuttable metal at the Foster Ranch, some of which was reported as having memory and not leaving any creases or wrinkles when wadded up and released? Some of the thin metal pieces were reported to be so stiff they couldn't be bent at all. Radar chaff was nothing more than aluminum foil/paper cut into strips. This is the same stuff that has been used to wrap candy bars and chewing gum since about 1920 clear into the present. Every kid has handled it. We all know how easy it is to tear and cut such material. The paper backing would burn. It is easily crushed. When crushed, it doesn't unfold itself and leaves many creases and wrinkles behind even if flattened out again. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to what was described. Nobody in their right mind would think radar chaff was exotic, not Brazel, certainly not military people at Roswell like Marcel, Rickett, or Blanchard. Not that it really matters, but Marcel in addition to be an intelligence officer, was also a certified radar intelligence officer, having taken a radar intelligence course at the end of WWII. The course included sections on radar jamming, which almost certainly would have included discussions if not demonstrations of radar chaff. One example from that period of radar chaff _very briefly_ getting wrapped up in flying saucer stories was in San Diego on July 8, 1947. The stories plus a photo of the chaff held in somebody's hand (looking a lot like confetti), can be found on my web page at http://www.roswellproof.com/San_Diego_July8.html Strips of radar chaff were found on the ground. Although some civilians thought they might have something to do with reported flying saucers, the San Diego police quickly identified the stuff as radar chaff (called "radar 'windows'" in the stories). Another quick identifier, in the caption of the photo, was a retired Navy electronics technician. The only real question wasn't what it was, but who was responsible for dropping it. The final story describes the chaff as follows "The 'windows' were developed during the war to jam enemy radar. They are thin strips of paper-backed foil." Now honestly, is their a single Brazel debris field description that in any way, shape, or form matches that description or what is shown in the San Diego radar chaff photo? >This theory does have some merit. The can't discern an iota of merit in any part of the theory. >In a 1947 FBI memorandum, the >Assistant Director, Edward A. Tamm, D.M. Ladd of the Bureau's >Domestic Intelligence Division wrote: >"The Director advised on August 14, 1947, that the Los Angeles >papers were carrying headlines indicating that Soviet espionage >agents had been instructed to determine the facts relative to >the flying discs. The article carried a Washington date line and >indicated that Red espionage agents had been ordered to solve >the question of the flying discs, the Russians being of the >opinion that this might be some new form of defense perfected by >the American military. The article further recalled that during >the recent war pieces of tin foil had been dropped in the air >for the purpose of off-setting the value of radar being used by >the enemy forces and that these aluminum discs might be a new >development along this line. The Director inquired as to whether >the Bureau had any such information." >Ladd advised Tamm that with regard to the theory that the >Soviets were looking, they had "no information relative to such >a story." >However, what is particularly interesting is that this official >FBI memorandum and the news article makes a specific connection >between flying discs and pieces of tinfoil being "dropped" in an >attempt to foil radar. As is distressingly common in your book, you cite various documents as somehow being connected to the Roswell story or acting as corroborative evidence by drawing vastly overreaching conclusions from them. >The important thing is that we may now have an even more >intriguing mix of materials at the ranch. Not just balloon >materials and small pieces of aircraft wreckage, but tinfoil >type materials that were to be utilized in a radar-related >experiment focused upon tracking the device. Whatever happened to the careful researcher I used to read, as in "The FBI Files?" Your whole line of argumentation here is beginning to sound like the stuff written by the British pelicanist debunkers, i.e., totally illogical, inconsistent, and unscientific accompanied by much frantic wing flapping to try to cover up same. I know that sounds insulting, but absolutely nothing you have written here makes a whit of sense. >Before people dismiss this, remember that it is none other than >the FBI expressing concern in mid-1947 about a news article that >makes a specific connection between flying discs and pieces of >tinfoil that could be "dropped" and that "these aluminum discs >might be a new development along this line." Trying to stretch this into a Roswell connection and the anomalous metal found at the Brazel debris field strikes me as nothing more than absurd. >I would suggest that this new revelation might be important and >we would do well to focus at least some of our attention on >these tinfoil drop-tests in New Mexico in the summer of 1947 (in >conjunction with test-flights of unusual prototype devices), to >determine if this is the origin of some of some of the materials >found on the Ranch or even in conjunction with other events in >that era and within NM. >One valid point made on-List was whether or not a balloon would >actually explode into small fragments and create the type of >debris field as found at the Foster Ranch. >But if some of the material was already fragmented tinfoil to >begin with - as per this radar experiment and as per this FBI >document - then this might answer the question of why we have >some people at the site talking about balloon debris (Cavitt, >Bessie Brazel Schreiber) and others talking about smaller >fragments of material. >Notably, Marcel stated that "we picked up fragments." And Mack >Brazel's son, Bill, said it was "something on the order of >tinfoil." I hate to say it again, but you are arguing like a pelicanist Roswell flying saucer debunker, grossly quoting things out of context and ignoring contradictory statements in order to make a case, however thin. Did anybody describe anything like shredded radar chaff? No, nobody, not even Cavitt (an obvious liar on many counts) or Schreiber or even Mack Brazel in his staged press interview. Now here are some of the complete quotes form Marcel about thin- metal debris that he found from my website at http://www.roswellproof.com/debris2_memory_foil.html http://www.roswellproof.com/debris3_misc_metal.html "[There were] many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again. Besides that, they were indestructible, even with a sledgehammer." "...the material was unusual. Of course the Air Force called it a balloon. It couldn't have been. It was porous. It couldn't hold any air. The material was a fabric... I tried to blow though it. It would go right through it. I tried to blow it with my mouth." [Corley asking for clarification: "What piece? That foil looking stuff?"] "No, no....what looked like balloon material. A cloth....It wouldn't hold any air....it's a cloth-like material, but it was also metallic....It was a metallic cloth. It [air] would go right through it. I even tried to burn it. It wouldn't burn....a balloon has to have ...gas to go up in the air -- even hot air. This could not hold anything like that. It was porous. "We [Cavitt and himself] found some metal, small bits of metal. ... I wanted to see some of the stuff burn, but all I had was a cigarette lighter... I lit the cigarette lighter to some of this stuff and it didn't burn." "The metal fragments varied in size up to six inches in length, but were the thickness of tinfoil. The fragments were unusual because they were of great strength. They could not be bent or broken, no matter what pressure we applied by hand." "...The pieces of metal that we brought back were so thin, just like the tinfoil in a pack of cigarettes. I didn't pay too much attention to that at first, until one of the boys came to me and said: 'You know that metal that was in there? I tried to bend the stuff and it won't bend. I even tried it with a sledgehammer. You can't make a dent in it.' ...This particular piece of metal was about two feet long and maybe a foot wide. It was so light it weighed practically nothing, that was true of all the material that was brought up, it weighed practically nothing... it was so thin. So I tried to bend the stuff. We did all we could to bend it. It would not bend and you could not tear it or cut it either. We even tried making a dent in it with a sixteen-pound sledgehammer, and there was still no dent in it... It's still a mystery to me what the whole thing was. Now by bend, I mean crease. It was possible to flex this stuff back and forth, even to wrinkle it, but you could not put a crease in it that would stay, nor could you dent it at all. I would almost have to describe it as a metal with plastic properties." "What are you trying to make me say, 'Do you really know that it came from outer space?' I don't. How can I say that? All I know is the material that I found and carried to the base... The only thing I can say is that it might indicate that it might have been from out of space. It is nothing I had ever seen before. And I haven't seen it since. Even modern manufacturing and process that we have now... all the material they have... I've never seen anything like that." Now some of Bill Brazel's quotes: "[One of the pieces looked like] something on the order of tinfoil, except that [it] wouldn't tear.... You could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape... quite pliable, but you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. Almost like a plastic, but definitely metallic. Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us." "There were several bits of metal-like substance, something on the order of tinfoil, except that this stuff wouldn't tear and was actually a bit darker in color than tinfoil -- more like lead foil, except very thin and extremely lightweight. The odd thing about this foil was that you could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape. It was quite pliable, yet you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. It was almost more like a plastic of some sort except that it was definitely metallic in nature. I don't know what it was, but I do know that Dad once said that the Army had told him that they had definitely established it wasn't anything made by us." Etc., etc. Does any of that sound like it comes from shredded aluminum foil/paper? Does providing a brief quote of Marcel saying "we picked up fragments" or Bill Brazel saying that it was "something on the order of tinfoil" accurately represent the physical properties of the metals they were describing when you read the complete quotes? I am absolutely baffled that somebody like Nick Redfern would even argue this way. I could also supply the quotes on anomalous thin metal debris from Marcel Jr., Rickett, Exon, etc., but Listers can go read them for themselves at the above links. I think the point is made that there is no resemblance whatsoever between the metal Marcel, Brazel Jr., etc. described and alleged shredded foil/paper radar chaff. >I submit that these could be _exact_ descriptions "Exact descriptions?" The more you argue grossly inaccurate nonsense like this in an attempt to patch up all the huge holes in your theory, the worse and worse your theory sounds. All the handwaving arguments in the world will not make those holes go away. >of this >material used in the radar aspect of the experiment/crash and >that the fact that it was _already _fragmented_to_begin_with is >what led Marcel to erroneously assume it had exploded in the air >and rained down debris. Utter rubbish Nick, on absolutely every count. In the end, you still have no remotely plausible explantion for the huge discrepancies between for the many pieces of metallic and other debris actually described at the Foster Ranch by Marcel and others and what would be expected from your body snatchers' theory. The fact that the stories your sources fed you are creating such holes should be a big red warning flag that your sources, almost all former military psyop/counterintelligence
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Penzance [UK] Tops Spookiest Site List From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:21:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:21:30 -0400 Subject: Penzance [UK] Tops Spookiest Site List Source: Children's BBC News - UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4710000/newsid_4717700/4717753.stm July 26 2005 Penzance Tops Spookiest Site List A popular holiday spot is Britain's spookiest place following a spate of UFO and ghostly sightings. Eerie experts say you are twice as likely to see a UFO and three times more likely to see a ghost in Penzance, Cornwall, than in the rest of the UK. Spook researcher Lionel Fanthorpe spent two months gathering evidence across the country. His team found 102 supernatural sightings, including 33 ghostly visions and 23 UFO, in the Penzance area. The high rate in the 216sq mile area has led it to be dubbed the Penzance Triangle, after the famous Bermuda Triangle - a place notorious for chilling goings-on. Researchers rate the Yorkshire Triangle and Norfolk Triangle as the next most chilling locations in the country. Mr Fanthorpe, president of the British UFO Research Association, said: "The three affected areas have all experienced battles,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Ufology Doesn't Have Enough Data? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:58:24 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:23:55 -0400 Subject: Ufology Doesn't Have Enough Data? If anyone ever says Ufology doesn't have enough data just throw a wet sock at them. I am worn out from reading, listening, and watching all the material created over the years. Luckily I was a kid in the 60's when the second wave of Ufology broke out. One could read much of the material and get the gist. 40 years later there are so many books, videos, radio, and film documentaries it's enough to make one's head spin. Not to forget the avalanche of internet documentation! Gadzooks! If one read all the basic must-have books like Stan Friedman's works, Jerome Clark's works, Budd Hopkins, Dick Hall's just to name a few it would take untold hours alone. Four hours a night of Coast to Coast AM, another three hours of Jeff Rense, Errol's show, Kaku's show, Brad's show and you can see you can do Ufology 24/7! Those are just the programs in English! Imagine if you calculated all the foreign tv and radio and press! China is now opening up and I've tried to keep up but can't. Don't even try Japan or you'll be bowled over. For the newbie on the scene wanting to get in their basics luckily they have this list to zero in on what to get to hat themselves from the start. Gosh, I remember as a nine-year-old getting my first books on Ufology. I recall going to the library with my father and he'd hit the history books and I'd snag up the UFO stuff. My parents used to tease me that I reminded them of an old Chuck Jones animated short character called "Mot" from the 1954 "Rocket-Bye Baby" ( http://members.tripod.com/~ink_and_paint/forgot/forgot3.html ) I remember old folks talking about Roswell back then as people who had served in WWII and at the bases there were still young enough to remember and wispered about this or that. UFOs were forbidden fodder back then and speaking out could get you a trip to the local mental hospital quick! I had made my conclusions by age 12 at the most and thought nothing more of it. To me it was a 'so what?' issue. I didn't comprehend at that age as to why so much resistance to the subject. Nowadays a youngster eager to learn has a plethora of material to peruse through! That's a big 'well done' to everyone who has continued to gather and process the raw data and to the pro scientists and researchers who've published papers and expressed their viewpoints on the subject. With my luck, some psychiatrist is reading this and is figuring there's a new 'syndrome' called 'Ufological-Exasperation' and will write a paper on it. :) Have to admit though, although I'm worn out from researching I'm no where near worn out from the enthusiasm to study.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Morris From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:38:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:27:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Morris >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >Subject: Debris at the Foster Ranch >List, <snip> >He has gone as far as he feels he comfortably can in terms of >divulging what he knows about the Roswell events and how he >knows; and, for that reason and no other, I am opening up his >information to the List. >Basically his story comes down to this - that at least one test >of the type cited in Body Snatchers involved a flight-test of a >prototype aircraft in conjunction with the dispersal over a >specific area of the New Mexico desert of tinfoil type materials >- as was done during the Second World War - as a way of off- >setting the value of radar in terms of tracking the device, and >that the prototype aircraft involved crashed. >His statements and descriptions sound very much like the crash >at the Foster Ranch that have led to the Roswell story. I now >wonder if possibly the picture of what happened at Roswell as >cited in my book has an extra angle to it as well. >The sources I interviewed for the book admitted that - decades >on - they did not recall every minute detail. I would have been >highly suspicious if they did. See page 118, final paragraph for >specific data on this latter point. >According to the sources in the book, the Roswell event was an >attempt to create a hybrid style device (a combination of >aircraft and balloon) that failed. >The new source, however, claims that while this was indeed correct, an extra component of that same experiment involved the dispersal of the aforementioned tinfoil to determine its value in affecting the ability of radar to adequately - or "correctly" might be a better term - track this device. >Therefore, it may be that some of the materials found at the >Foster Ranch were not just from the balloon and the aircraft, >but that some it might have been the aforementioned tinfoil that >was to be used in this experiment. Nick, I'm afraid this sounds like utter BS being fed to you. "Chaff", the dispersal of radar reflective material was widely used in WWII to "cloak" aircraft movements to enemy radar by creating large clouds of radar reflections. The Chaff didn't move with the planes so how would it's use in this case aid "tracking"?, you'd chuck a bagfull out of the balloon/plane and up would pop a bigger trace on your tracking radar set miles away but it would only tell you where you were at that moment not 10 minutes or an hour later unless you kept on chucking bags out all the time and leaving a trail?, seems rather impractical and it would have been a whole lot easier to attach a cluster of ML307 radar reflectors like the NYU guys did with their balloons, they would at least move with the balloon!, and adding a simple radiosonde would allow the acurate radio DF gear they had back then to track it way out beyond the range of the then current radar sets. Also if they wanted to track the thing, why didn't they just use a chase plane to follow and observe, even film the tests for later analysis?. If the low key work by the NYU at AAAF could warrent the use of an AAF B17 to track it's launches, I would have thought a project like the one you believe took place around the same time would have warrented similar treatment?.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:17:14 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:33:38 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>Okay, but I hesitate to get involved in this because you simply >>won't listen. No matter what evidence is offered, you spin it so >>that your favorite "whistleblower" is the victim of governmental >>efforts to suppress the information and attempts to suggest >>otherwise have some sort of nefarious motivation. Here it is >>but you're not going to like it. <snip> >>>And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military >>>records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone >>>is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. >>I vote for number two. SFC Stone offered no evidence that his >>records have been altered other than his claim. And I doubt that >>you have asked for any evidence of the same. <snip> >>Brad Sparks noted that Stone would have learned of Moon Dust and >>Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - >>FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, >>including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, >>such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts >>to recover downed Soviet satellites. <snip> >>This says nothing about Stone's credibility as a witness, only >>that he supplied, to me, documents that he, and others, had >>uncovered concerning Project Moon Dust and Operation Blue Fly. I >>always try to provide credit where credit is due - even when >>there is a chance it'll come back to haunt. The truth is that >>Stone shared the information he and those others had gathered, >>regardless of the source. <snip> >>Brad Sparks sent the following, and supplied it to the List, but >>I think it bears repeating because it shows the true evolution >>of this area of investigation. Sparks wrote: >>"'Veteran UFO researcher' Robert G. Todd, the master of FOIA >>requests, uncovered Project Moon Dust and Blue Fly documents in >>the late 70's, long before Clifford Stone came along. >>Todd uncovered the critical 1961 AF Intelligence definition >>document on Moon Dust and Blue Fly in an AF release of Aug. 20, >>1979, as written up in the CAUS newsletter of June 1986, see >>online copy at: >> http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo >>This means that Stone had no such 'pioneering role' in >>uncovering the 'truth' about Moon Dust and Blue Fly and it does >>not validate his suspect story in the slightest despite your >>overheated efforts to twist history to support his wacked out >>claims. >> http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm >>So, what we have, in reality, is Stone telling me how he had >>gathered all this information, but forgetting to mention that he >>had followed in the footsteps of others, most notably Robert >>Todd. Stone's work wasn't pivotal, but Todd's was. <snip> >>More important, he forgot to mention Robert Todd and those who >>had led the way for him. As I followed in his footsteps, and >>provided credit for his assistance, he followed in the footsteps >>of others and forgot to provide credit to those. <snip> >>>... Stone's >>>successful FOIA requests demonstrates that he was aware of the >>>existence of Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. If Stone was, as >>>you suggest, only ever trained and served in clerical typist >>>positions, how would he have learned about the existence of >>>these classified projects, and then use FOIA to bring their >>>existence into the public arena? >>By reading the information that had been published by others and >>that clearly precede his involvement in the subject. <snip> >>>Two, Stone is telling the truth about his training and service >>>In classified UFO crash retrieval projects such as Project Moon >>>Dust and knew exactly the questions to ask in his FOIA requests >>>since he knew of the existence of these projects and of their >>>location at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. <snip> >>A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >>requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >>trail Todd blazed years before him. >Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have >assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA >requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone >and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research >and come up with similar results. The truth is the third alternative, that Robert Todd was on the trail of Project Moon Dust in 1978 based on documents he had obtained by FOIA and not based on any purported contact or info from Stone who was not in contact with Peter Gersten yet in 1978 and who was not then even purportedly serving on Moon Dust in 1978. As you had noted in an earlier post but forget all about here, Stone's (bogus) claim is that he served on Moon Dust from 1979 to 1989. Bob Todd had already in 1978 obtained the following AF response admitting the existence of Project Moon Dust in an official letter of Nov. 13, 1978, by Col. Albert W. Schumann of SAFOI replying to Todd's letter of Oct. 21, 1978: "This is in response to your letter of October 21, 1978 requesting information on MOONDUST and BLUEFLY." So Bob Todd already knew of Moon Dust as of Oct. 21, 1978. But Stone's bogus claim is that he served on Moon Dust beginning in 1979, well after Bob Todd had already established in 1978 the code names and existence of Moon Dust and Blue Fly (the logistics support for Moon Dust) through no help from johnny- come-lately Stone. As I recall from my many contacts with both Gersten and Todd at that time, Stone was not in contact with Gersten until around 1980 when the NSA FOIA lawsuit was going forward, possibly the last few months of 1979, hence I had written in my post "late 70's." What was an Army man (Stone) doing on an Air Force project anyway? There is no mention in Stone's Army clerk-typist military records of being assigned to another military service, the AF. >>>My conclusion, is that the latter possibility is more plausible >>>and that the first possibility supported by yourself and others >>>lacks merit since I doubt luck had much to do with Stone's >>>success in proving the existence of Project Moon Dust and >>>uncovering its location at Fort Belvoir. >>Sparks wrote it proves nothing since it looks more like a ripoff >>of Bob Todd's research, who was apparently the first to 'prove >>the existence of Project Moon Dust and... its location at Fort >>Belvoir,' or certainly Todd did so many years before Stone ever >>got involved (there is a possibility someone 'uncovered' Moon >>Dust even before Bob Todd, and of course before Stone who did >>_not_ 'uncover' its existence). >>Please note that the information was in the public arena before >>Stone began his revelations, so it doesn't prove he was on the >>inside, merely that he had read the UFO literature. It also says >>a lot about him because he forgot to mention the role of others >>in finding the information. >First, there is no evidence that Todd learned of the discovery >of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir. This is something that >Stone established by initiating correspondence between the >office of Senator Bingaman and the US Airforce [in 1991]. Stone >established the location of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir >and that is a significant acommplishment. I don't see why you or >Brad Sparks should jump to conclusions such as Stone "ripping >off" Todd's work. What evidence do you have to show for that >other than Brad Spark's imagination? [sic] If you were more familiar with fundamental UFO history you would not make such uninformed and erroneous statements. If you bothered to read and familiarize yourself with David Jacobs' classic UFO history, The UFO Controversy in America, published in 1975 by Indiana Univ. Press and in 1976 as a Signet paperback, you would learn that, and I quote Jacobs (Signet p. 134): "... the Air Force used the 1127th Field Activities Group stationed at Fort Belvoir, Virginia" (which is in the Washington, DC, area) As I pointed out in a previous UpDates post, Bob Todd in 1979 obtained the following AF Intelligence (AFCIN) document of Nov. 3, 1961, defining Moon Dust and UFO responsibilities assigned to the 1127th Field Activities Group at Ft. Belvoir, Va., which is "in the Washington area." Here are some relevant excerpts: --- SUBJECT: (U) AFCIN Intelligence Team Personnel 3 NOV 1961 2. c. In addition to their staff duty assignments, intelligence team personnel have peacetime duty functions in support of such Air Force projects as Moondust, Bluefly, and UFO, and other AFCIN directed quick reaction projects which require intelligence team operational capabilities (see Definitions). e. Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO): Headquarters USAF has established a program for investigation of reliably reported unidenti- fied flying objects within the United States. AFR 200- 2 delineates 1127th collection responsibilities. f. Blue Fly: Operation Blue Fly has been established to facilitate expeditious delivery to FTD of Moon Dust or other items of great tech- nical intelligence interest. AFCIN SOP for Blue Fly operations, February 1960, provides for 1127th participation. g. Moon Dust: As a specialized aspect of its over-all material exploitation program, Headquarters USAF has established Project Moon Dust to locate, recover and deliver descended foreign space vehicles. ICGL #4, 25 April 1961, delineates collection responsibilities. 6. a. Headquarters USAF (AFCIN) maintains intelligence teams as a function of AFCIN-1E (1127th USAF Field Activities Group). h. ... USAF personnel assigned to organizations other than the 1127th within the Washington area.... --- To sum up, Bob Todd already established in 1978-9 that Moon Dust was a project of the 1127th FAG at Ft. Belvoir, by obtaining FOIA documents, long before any 1991 correspondence by Stone with Sen. Bingaman. This had nothing to do with Stone and his bogus claims, and Stone certainly was not the first person to "establish," in 1991, that Moon Dust had been based at Ft. Belvoir, which you claim was a "significant acommplishment [sic]" proving Stone's absurd claims of serving on Moon Dust from 1979 to 1989 recovering crashed alien saucers. Stone's ignorance of the actual Project Moon Dust is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:30:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:35:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:26:46 -0300 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Well I am retired, as you've alluded to, but that makes me >poorer so I have to be selective re my purchases. Seriously. Don This actually wasn't an allusion to you as I have no idea of your work situation/retirement situation until you just mentioned it. It was meant as a general comment to the List that it takes time to answer emails. Nothing more, nothing less. >As for sitting around at a computer all day, where did you get the >idea that retirement was free of work - not to mention loosing >weekends, holidays and vacation? I didn't get the idea that retirement was free of work. I siad I have to work and that answering email takes time. Nothing more, nothing less. >BTW - I'm sending you a question off-line which has nothing to >do with this thread. Ok, not arrived yet, but when it does I'll reply.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:50:38 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:31:25 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Randle >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>Okay, but I hesitate to get involved in this because you simply >>won't listen. No matter what evidence is offered, you spin it so >>that your favorite "whistleblower" is the victim of >>governmental efforts to suppress the information and attempts to >>suggest otherwise have some sort of nefarious motivation. Here >>it is but you're not going to like it. >Ok, we've had disagreements. You've stated your case on some of >the key whistleblowers I've used for my research, I've stated my >own perspective. I didn't find your arguments concerning Phillip >Corso, Clifford Stone and Robert Dean to be compelling. >Interestingly, you conclude that I'm the one not listening since >I don't accept your arguments. I guess other possibilities are >not worth contemplating. There are others but I was too polite to mention them. >snip< >>>You are clearly dismissing Stone's claims of having served on >>>UFO Crash Retrieval teams such as Project Moon Dust. The >>>implication is that Stone never did any of the training he >>>claimed, nor served on any of the Crash retrieval assignments he >>>claimed. The conclusion therefore is that Stone is embellishing >>>what appears to have been a rather pedestrian military career. >>>And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military >>>records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone >>>is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. >>I vote for number two. SFC Stone offered no evidence that his >>records have been altered other than his claim. And I doubt that >>you have asked for any evidence of the same. >>But let's say that you decide to check my background and you >>write to the big records center in St. Louis. And, let's say >>that you find my claim to have been trained as a military police >>officer to be questionable. When the records arrive (those parts >>that are considered to be public record), you find no >>indications of training in military police. >>You ask for clarification and I say that my records, for >>whatever reason, have been altered. But, to prove that claim, I >>offer certified copies of the graduation certificate that I >>received at the completion of the training, I can provide copies >>of the course work to show it's completion, and if you travel to >>Ft. Leonard Wood and go into the Military Police School, you >>find my class footprint (which is the plaque we donated) >>includes both my name and my photograph with the rest of the >>class. >>In other words, I can prove it beyond the military record and I >>don't have to claim my records have been altered. It could be >>just a case of the clerk being too busy inventing tales to take >>proper care of his assigned duties. >Forgive me but where is the analogy here with Stone's case? Your >training as a Military Police Officer is not classified is it? >Nor is the existence of contingents of military police that are >deployed on various assignements classified either is it? So >there would be no need to have your records concering your >training and deployments altered on the basis of national >security. In contrast, both the training and the existence of >groups involved in the retrieval of crashed disks is claimed to >be highly classified. Something that is very reasonable given >the existence of waived Special Access Programs whose existence >is a secret. The point here was that if there were holes in the records, I have other ways of proving it. Stone should have copies of orders that would note his needing to be absent on another assignment without necessarily spelling out what that assignment was. School, even those of a classified nature have generic names and certificates are issued. While it wouldn't of necessity say it was Project Moon Dust training, it would have some sort of training but Stone has offered nothing like that, insisting, instead, that his records were altered. >As the 1991 letter to Senator Bingaman denying the >existence of Project Moon dust suggests, Moon Dust is highly >classified and the documentary trail is pretty thin. Stone's >claims concerning the alteration of his military records is >plausible given the classified nature of the training and >deployments of crash retrieval teams he claims to have been >recruited for. But there are no gaps in his records. Everything is accounted for. I say that his absences, even of a classified nature would be noted. There are people claiming to have been awarded "secret" medals because they were on classified assignments. This is why there is no record. But the truth is that even those on classified missions and received awards for valor have them noted=E2=80=A6. yes, the notations are generic and the actions cited less than detailed, but the point is that there is some kind of record. Stone produces nothing of the kind, insisting the record is altered. He should be able to produce orders, certificates, some sort of document that relates, in a very generic sense to his "classified" training. And not copies of documents, but originals. >>>However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >>>earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >>>say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >>>(available online at: >>http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm >:>( >>>'When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force >>>about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel >>>John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of >>>Legislative Liaison, wrote, 'There is no agency, nor has there >>>ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with >>>UFO's or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In >>>addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. >>>Those missions have never existed.' What the documentation, now >>>available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and >>>the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that >>>Madison's letter to a United States Senator is, at best, >>>inaccurate.' (p. 151). >>>So Stone's 'pioneering work' was able to show how Lt Col Madison >>>was covering up the existence of these classified projects >>>designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >>>was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >>through his FOIA requests: >>Brad Sparks noted that Stone would have learned of Moon Dust and >>Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - >>FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, >>including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, >>such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts >>to recover downed Soviet satellites. >Now I find this to be very interesting. You have authored a >book, Project Moon Dust, and in fact refer to Robert Todd on a >number of occassions (pp. 154-57). In your research you were >clearly aware of the earlier research efforts on Project Moon >Dust by Todd. Yet you still referred to Stone as a "pioneer" in >the release of documents concerning Project Moon Dust through >FOIA (p. 150). Were you wrong then and right now in following >Brad Spark's current tune? If you are right now, does that mean >you simply hadn't done adequate research in writing a book on >Project Moon Dust? You can't simply say Stone misled by not >crediting Todd since you already were aware of Todd's work which >you did reference. Did you speak or communicate with Todd at all >in researching your book? What did he say and why did you refer >to Stone as the pioneer in Moon Dust research rather than Todd? >Why do you simply dance to the tune Brad Spark's is playing >without coming out with more information on what it was Todd >learned and the role played by Stone? I said then that Stone had provided me with the documentation, which was true. I obtained documents on my own as well, including a long microfilmed history of the 4602d. Stone, was right there, filing his own requests=E2=80=A6 but it was you who suggested that given Stone's background and his success, this proved he was an insider. Brad and I suggest that he didn't have to be an insider to get to that point, and that information to help him was already in the public arena. I'll let Brad hand you the timelime, showing that others had done some of the original spade work. But the point, the major point, is that knowing about Moon Dust does not prove that Stone was on the inside. <snip> >>I will point out that his analysis wasn't always supported by >>the information. Once he told me that the Chilean Air Force had >>fired missiles at a UFO and hit it without doing any damage. >>What the report actually said was that the Chilean Air Force had >>fired missiles at a UFO without result which could have meant >>that they missed it. >Stone has provided sufficient documents concerning Project Moon >Dust to establish his credibility as a researcher. It seems that >you are doing something similar to Brad Sparks in that you are >trying to dismiss Stone's credibility as a whistleblower by >arguing that his earlier UFO research was not as original and >important as first thought by reseachers. That to me is pretty >disingenous since Stone's FOIA research is a matter of the >public record and one can simply purchase a copy of his book, >UFO's are Real and decide how important his earlier research was >given the extensive documentation in it. Given your own earlier >support for Stone's pioneering work, and Stanton Friedman's >comments in the preface to Stone's book, Stone was clearly well >regarded by his peers at the time of writing his book. What >changed? Stone decided to spill the beans on his own involvement >in these projects, and become a whistleblower. No, No, No. I am suggesting that you can't say Stone must have been on the inside because he knew of the documents and secured copies through FOIA. I am saying, once again, that he was tenacious as a researcher into these matters, but that does not prove he had been a member of a classified Moon Dust team. Stone's research and knowledge of these matters is great, but what changed was that he injected himself into the middle of this claiming to be something that he is not. >>So, what we have, in reality, is Stone telling me how he had >>gathered all this information, but forgetting to mention that he >>had followed in the footsteps of others, most notably Robert >>Todd. Stone's work wasn't pivotal, but Todd's was. >Have you bothered to do any research into the relationship >between Robert Todd and Clifford Stone? Todd, Stone and Peter >Gersten were in touch in the late 70s over FOIA and Project Moon >Dust. Who was helping who? I'd like to learn myself by talking >to either Robert Todd or Peter Gersten. Instead, you simply >accept Brad Spark's claim that Stone 'ripped off' Todd's >research. There's no foundation for that other than Spark's own >imagination. Because there is documentation that suggests Todd was in some of these places first. Stone followed his path. The real point, once again is that you suggested his knowledge of Moon Dust proved that he was on the inside, otherwise how would he know. We're saying that others had learned about it without inside knowledge so it does nothing to prove Stone's other claims. >>>The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >>>and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >>>active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. >>There is no inconsistency. Stone had the documents, shared them >>with me and deserved the credit for doing so. However, when he >>began to inject himself into the middle of the operations, >>claiming expertise that he didn't have and telling tales that >>clearly were not true, then it was time to say something more. >Let's do a little background here. In his 1997 book, Stone said >he would reveal "more in a forthcoming book about my life and >involvement within the Aerial Phenomena Field" (UFO's are Real, >p. 47) . Your own book Project Moon Dust appeared in 1998 and >acknowledged Stone's book. So you must already have been aware >that Stone had already stated that he was involved in the >"Aerial Phenomena Field" and would be more forthcoming later. So >when Stone publically injected himself into the crash retrieval >projects by becoming a whistleblower, this was not a sudden turn >around by Stone but something consistent with what he had >earlier said. Despite this consistency in Stone's behavior, I >find your a priori dismissal of Stone's testimony to be >inconsistent with the documentation Stone brought forward. One >of the keys to Stone's credibility as a whistleblower is his >documentary research through FOIA requests, and that does lend >credence to his later claims regarding being personally involved >in crash retrieval projects such as Moon Dust. Here's a question, since you believe that Stone was on the inside of Moon Dust for his military career and that the reason he was able to locate, through FOIA, the information which now proves his insider status=E2=80=A6 What's the new code name for Moon Dust? If he's on the inside, he should know it. Since you say you read my Moon Dust book, let me point you to page 154 and you'll read, "We know from released documents that Moon Dust wasn't discontinued. Its code name was changed after it was compromised. Robert G. Todd, in a letter from the Air Force dated July 1, 1987, learned that the "nickname Project Moon Dust no longer officially exists." According to Colonel Phillip E. Thomspon, deputy assistant chief of staff, Intelligence, "It [Project Moon Dust] has been replaced by another name that is not releaseable. FTD's duties are listed in a classified passage in a classified regulation that is being withheld because it is currently and properly classified." So, it seems to me that if Stone has no trouble telling of secrets that he has been swore to keep, that he is willing to spill his guts about the 57 varieties of EBEs out there, he will surely tell us this classified name=E2=80=A6 for, if he was on the inside, he should know it. <snip> >>As Sparks notes, Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney >>Peter Gersten at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for >>Gersten in the late 70's and 80's. I suggest Stone found out a >>lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not >>published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many 10,000's of >>pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF and many >>other agencies there was simply no way to publish it all). >>A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >>requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >>trail Todd blazed years before him. >Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have >assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA >requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone >and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research >and come up with similar results. This commonly happens in >scientific research, ask Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz who >discovered integral calculus at the same time independently of >one another. So, where once you said that you believed Stone because he had found various documents through FOIA that only his insider status could find, you now suggest that Todd, working independently of Stone, without an insider's knowledge could have found these same documents. Doesn't that then suggest that Stone didn't have to be an insider either and therefore, his discovery of these documents, if independent of Todd, only proves his tenacious attitude but does nothing to corroborate his now wild tales? <snip> >Ironically, I think this exchange is the reverse of our earlier >positions concerning the importance of documentary evidence. >Here I'm basing my case on Stone's credibility as a >whistleblower on his FOIA documentary research which is a matter >of the public record and can be analysed and evaluated. You have >based your response on a series of conjectures and opinions not >based on anything other than your own and Brad Sparks' rather >callous dismissal of Stone's testimony. Neither you nor Brad >Sparks has offered anything to establish the thesis that Stone >had somehow "ripped off" another researcher's work and basically >misled an "innocent" UFO community ignorant about Project Moon >Dust. As the author of a book on Project Moon Dust, you want us >to now believe that you were one of those most misled by the >wily Sgt Stone despite your own research efforts and citation of >Robert Todd and others involved in Project Moon Dust research. >Now you are dancing to the right piper played by Brad Spark's >startling revelation that somehow Stone ripped of Todd Robert's >work! Where's the evidence for this claim other than Spark's >imagination and propensity for historical revisionism. >Stone's FOIA documentary research was highly regarded by his >peers in the UFO community, including initially yourself, and >does help establish his credibility for his later public >statements about participating in the classified projects such >as Moon Dust. Brad Spark's imagination seems to be currently >playing a more appealing tune for you rather than Stone's well >grounded documentary research. I find that to be rather ironic >given our previous communications. There are two issues here. No one is denying that Stone did some fine work in securing documents about Moon Dust. He was very tenacious in that work. He sent FOIA requests to everyone under the sun and he obtained some very good results. But, that is not the same thing as working on the Moon Dust teams, or working on the inside, claims for which he has provided no documentation. You believe that his work in cracking through the paperwork barrier somehow provides credibility to those claims. I say that one does not support the other. So, once again, if he was on the inside, he can tell us the new code name for Moon Dust. I await the answer. At that point, I will reevaluate my thinking on Stone and be forced to admit that he might have some inside knowledge.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:58:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:33:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:00:50 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >Nick excuse me if I missed the data, but did you cover the >reports by Marcel and others of debris that was very strong and >If so, where do you have it noted in your latest book? Greg No one (not even me!) disputes that Marcel made statements to the effect that the material had unique and highly unusual/anomalous properties. However, try and put yourself in the mind of someone with no pre-conceived notions or biases about the Roswell debris. Yes, Marcel said what he said. Brazel died years before any UFO researchers could interview him and ask the specific sorts of questions that needed to be asked. But the photos with Marcel do not show what appears to be that unique debris (yes, we all know about the possibility that debris was switched for the photos), but the fact is that we have photos of Marcel with what look like balloon materials. Brazel's son Bill said that the material was "on the order of tinfoil." Brazel's daughter, Bessie, said it looked like "piece of a large balloon which had burst." Loretta Proctor, Brazel's neighbor, said that Brazel showed her a piece of material that was brown in color and told her that: "the other material on the property looked like aluminum foil." Marcel also said that it was "like a metal with plastic properties." Bill Brazel said that it was "almost like a plastic, but definitely metallic...it wouldn't tear." Cavitt said it was balloon debris. Yes, I know there are many who are highly suspicious of Cavitt's comments (particularly the scenario surrounding his comments to the Air Force re their Mogul investigation). Now, on top of that, we know that the FBI was preparing memoranda in the summer of 1947 on Disk sightings associated with drops of tinfoil - around the same time that we have a report of a UFO crash, with fragments of material that the son of Brazel, no less, described as being "on the order of tinfoil." The development of aluminized saran on-List has been discussed before. >From the Journal of Atmospheric Sciences, Vol. 5, Issue 4, August 1948 comes the following: "The results of an experimental program to develop balloons with associated control devices, which will float at constant pressure in the atmosphere, are given. Newly developed plastic balloons and automatic ballast equipment are described." The point is that a lot of new things were being tested and developed back then. Some of the witness testimony about the materials at the Foster Ranch conflicts with other witness testimony. Now before people jump on me, I am not calling Marcel a liar. I don't believe he was. But - again from the perspective of an outsider with no Roswell biases - what is it that makes people believe that the Marcel testimony is accurate but that the Cavitt testimony is not? I'm not saying I full support Cavitt's stance to the Air Force because I certainly don't, but it's fascinating that the testimony that is always cited is the testimony in favor of the debris having unique properties; and the testimony in favor of balloon-like materials is dismissed as lies and mistakes. Why? Arguably both Cavitt and Marcel were trained observers, so why dismiss one in favor of the other? What I'm trying to do, Greg, is get you to take a step back and look at things in black-and-white from the perspective of an outsider, uncontaminated by UFO history, etc. And the fact is that we have a situation where we _do_have conflicting statements to a degree on the nature of the debris. And without consistency - even on the part of the people that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Ufology Doesn't Have Enough Data? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:27:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:37:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufology Doesn't Have Enough Data? - Lehmberg >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:58:24 EDT >Subject: Ufology Doesn't Have Enough Data? >If anyone ever says Ufology doesn't have enough data just throw >a wet sock at them. >I am worn out from reading, listening, and watching all the >material created over the years. <snip> --- Six levels of preponderance so wide and long and deep, it shocks the sensibilities of those not yet asleep. Six levels of near certainty foretell the patent truth, that we are not, have never been, _alone_ in all this, Luke! Six levels of an evidence borne out in guts some had to qualify existence and to keep from going mad. Six levels of reality that some would just deny, as this is proof that these are fools truth-seekers should decry... --- Dude! Squeezed that one right _out_ of me! Thanks! It's the start of AOO #389, and dedicated to you, Sir! The 'mote' inspiring! <g>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:30:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:40:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:00:09 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Nick, >I realize your time is restricted and you must be going crazy >trying to respond to people, but numerous, very serious problems >with your scenario remain unanswered or were answered in a very >unconvincing way. David, Nope, it's not driving me crazy at all. As I said, it just takes time to reply. Nothing more. Remember that Ufology is a small group and it's not like I am being bombarded with emails from here, there and everywhere. We should all remember that as ufologists we are talking largely to each other - and it's not a large group of people. And most people outside of Ufology do not care anyway. >Not only does that make >no sense (you would want to track your super-secret craft, not >jam the radar so you couldn't track it), but it is also absurd >on multiple other grounds. I wasn't trying to say that the letter writer was implying that they would deliberately not want to track the device. That _would_ be absurd. I was trying to say that he claims an experiment was undertaken to see how utilizing tinfoil drops would protect it from radar - adequately or not. It was an experiment to determine the ability of radar to track the device, not to deliberately try and lose the device! >A damaged _glider_ isn't going to go very far, >and would have crashed very near to where the alleged test >disaster occurred. Recovery teams would have quickly been all >over it, and quickly noticed a missing body and part of the >craft (according to your scenario). The aircraft and balloons reportedly became detached at a height of 12,000 feet, and _after_ the aircraft had become partly detached from the balloons already - a scenario never envisaged. And yes, as I state in the book, the site of the vehicle was locked down by the following morning. >At that point, again >according to you, recovering the balloons along with the missing >craft part and body would have become high priority. It was. Have you ever you flown over miles of the NM desert looking for a solitary 5-foot-long body? It would not have been that easy, to say the least - particularly considering the body was _not_ with the balloon materials anyway! I make it clear in the book that the body was found elsewhere. It was not a case of the body being intermingled with the balloon debris. >Also left unexplained is the seeming absence of any tracking >that should have led to quick recovery of the balloons. At the >very least, they should have had a very good idea of which >direction they were headed when last seen and which way the >winds were blowing. That is quite true. But the important point is that - initially - the recovery of the balloons was not seen as a priority. Even after the recovery of the aircraft was made, it was the recovery of the remaining body that was the absolute priority. The balloons were always the last priority. >2. Could you explain to me how a body strapped into the glider >(again according to your scenario) could become attached to the >balloons and be carried clear to the Brazel crash site from >White Sands. > No, because I don't have all of the data - and the witnesses admitted that they did not have it either. But what we do know is that the experiment did not fail right over White Sands. The failure occurred at 12,000 feet with the aircraft partly detached from the balloons and basically hanging precariously before finally detaching and plummeting to the ground. We don't know the full data, and that is precisely why I am putting this info out there - to try and resolve the complexities of the case. But the important factor is that the remaining body was not with the balloon debris. It was at another site - so there were 3 sites - the aircraft, the balloons, the body. >This also sounds very much like another statement in your book >that a drone aircraft carrying chimps through an atomic cloud at >the Nevada Test Site was somehow the basis of the story of the >Kingman flying saucer crash of 1953. Even assuming such a drone >test, left unexplained is how a drone designed to fly only a >short distance, could end up in Kingman nearly 200 miles away. Anyone can examine the files on this experiment - they are declassified. Regardless of whether people believe that this is the origin of the Kingman crash, it is a fact that at the same time of the alleged UFO crash with a small alien body during the Upshot-Knothole tests, the Air Force _did_ fly a prototype drone aircraft (actually more than one) with small monkeys on board in the vicinity of the Upshot-Knothole mushroom clouds. It is also a fact that the original source of the UFO story said
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:43:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Reynolds >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Sp arks >>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone ><snip> >Apparently, in order to defend Corso's blatant lies, you must >view Jackson's study of the OCB's ineffectiveness due to OCB's >separation from the NSC structure, as a mirage, a nonexistent >document. To you the fact Jackson had to conduct such a study >must be a joke. To you Eisenhower's endorsement of Jackson's >recommendation to merge the OCB into the NSC was a needless and >pointless exercise -- or maybe it was a fabricated history >designed to cover up Corso's glorious career and lies, like all >the other bogus "whistleblowers" you claim had their personal >histories allegedly erased or altered. So Ike's Executive Order >10700, merging the OCB into the NSC a year after Corso was long >gone, must be a fake, no such executive order. Brad: You're doing some heavy lifting here to convince Michael Salla that he is in error (or worse) about Corso. Dr. Salla, bless his soul, has dragged you and others to a side- room of ufology, and has been more effective than any disinformation group in side-tracking the UFO debate. Corso is badly tainted. Let's stop wasting time on the guy. Dr. Salla is on a mission that has little or nothing to do with the UFO enigma, really...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:00:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:34:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:26:57 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >The story is basically impossible, and what it really sounds >like to me is a team of disinfo agents divying up a disinfo >story and trying to cover all angles. I have never ever disputed this possibility, which is why I am constantly updating people (on and off-List) with data as it comes in, in an attempt to resolve the questions and scenarios that we have. However, I do not think that it is insignificant that we have an alleged UFO crash in the summer of 1947 with fragments that some have described as "on the order of tinfoil", and we now have official FBI documents from the summer of 1947 talking about Flying Disks associated with drops of tinfoil re radar experiments. >Page 118 is the chapter on "The Colonel." So is this source with >the radar chaff story the anonymous colonel? No, he is not the source. My reference to page 118 was meant to show that the Colonel was admitting that he did not know every facet of the story. I thought I had made that clear? >Whatever happened to the careful researcher I used to read, as >in "The FBI Files?" Your whole line of argumentation here is >beginning to sound like the stuff written by the British >pelicanist debunkers, i.e., totally illogical, inconsistent, and >unscientific accompanied by much frantic wing flapping to try to >cover up same. I know that sounds insulting, but absolutely >nothing you have written here makes a whit of sense. Frantic wing flapping??? We may not agree on things re. Roswell, but I don't think anyone can accuse me of frantic wing flapping! I have tried to reply in a calm, concise, to-the-point fashion and have hardly been frantic! >Trying to stretch this into a Roswell connection and the >anomalous metal found at the Brazel debris field strikes me as >nothing more than absurd. And you are free to see it as absurd. But if there is even an inkling of truth to the idea that a test with tinfoil-jamming occurred in the summer of 1947 and that was allied with the Roswell events, then we may have an explanation for some of the scattered fragments. And that might explain some of the problematic questions about exploding balloons. If it was fragmented material to begin with, nothing would have needed to explode. But it might have _looked_ that way to people that saw it scattered here, there and everywhere. >The fact that the stories your sources fed you are >creating such holes should be a big red warning flag that your >sources, almost all former military psyop/counterintelligence >people whom you also admit mostly know one another, are >deliberately giving you a bum steer. Which again I have never denied is a possibility and which is why I am trying to provide as much data as possible as it comes in. But several questions: 1. Why target someone with disinformation when that person (me) wasn't even doing Roswell research in 1996 to 2001 when the initial accounts were given to me? 2. Why would disinformation people create _another_ scenario for Roswell when the Mogul Balloon and Crash Test Dummy scenarios are still in place? That would only generate more suspicion (not less) that the Air Force was lying. 3. Why try to deflect interest from Roswell by saying they had undertaken diabolical experiments on human beings? Again - regardless of whether or not people believe the testimony - that would only focus more attention on Roswell. 4. Why the need to create a further cover story anyway? I ask that because when I was doing this research there were no big Roswell revelations on the horizon that had to be discredited by the official world. And most of those involved directly in the incident are dead now anyway, and not available for interview. So why the pressing need to come up with a disinformation angle? 5. Also, 2 of the interviewees flatly refused to consent to interviews for 18-months after I first spoke to them - hardly the stance of a team of disinformation specialists that want to get this story out there. 6. I submit that you think much of the scenario as presented to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:07:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:36:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:38:10 +0100 >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >Nick, >I'm afraid this sounds like utter BS being fed to you. Which is why I provided it to List, so that it can be debated. >"Chaff", the dispersal of radar reflective material was widely >used in WWII to "cloak" aircraft movements to enemy radar by >creating large clouds of radar reflections. The Chaff didn't >move with the planes so how would it's use in this case aid >"tracking"?, ... Yes I am fully aware of this. But my point was to stress that if there was/is a chance that part of an experiment in NM in summer 1947 involved dispersal of chaff, then we need to address it or look into it to determine if that may have been responsible for some of the material/debris. And again, the fact that the FBI was preparing memoranda in the summer of 1947 that linked Flying Disks with drops of tinfoil is - I still believe - significant and worthy of further digging, given that we have reports of a New Mexico Flying Disk crash in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Crash Retrieval A New Perspective From: Peter Merlin <Xelex.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:43:21 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:53:36 -0400 Subject: Crash Retrieval A New Perspective As an aerospace archeologist, I am interested in the concept of crash retrievals in general. I have personally specialized in crashes of exotic and experimental aircraft, mainly those tested at Edwards AFB, California and the Groom Lake (Area 51) facility in Nevada. Since many of these accidents involved vehicles and weapon systems that were SECRET or even TOP SECRET at the time, visiting these sites today could help create a template for studying alleged UFO crash retrievals such as Roswell. In a Roswell-related message posted on 24 July 2005, Robert Gates and Christopher Allan debated the concept of civilian witnesses who were allegedly sworn to secrecy and remained silent for decades. As an illustrative example, Mr. Gates asserted the following: "A then secret CIA aircraft, called the A-12, crashed near Wendover, Nevada back around 1966. The local civilian witnesses were sworn to secrecy, and to this day have not uttered a word..." I have researched this incident extensively. This was the first loss of an A-12, on 24 May 1963. The airplane was then TOP SECRET and unknown to the public. The identity of the aircraft was shrouded behind a cover story that an ordinary F-105 had crashed. I obtained hundreds of declassified documents from the CIA that give an extremely detailed account of the accident and its aftermath. Potential civilian witnesses include several men in a pickup truck who gave the pilot a ride, and law enforcement officers who secured the scene. There is no indication that any of the witnesses were sworn to secrecy. The guys in the truck never saw the wreckage. Making them swear an oath would be unnecessary and would raise their suspicions that this was not an ordinary accident. The patrolmen who secured the scene probably just closed the roads into the area and may have never seen the wreck either. At any rate, the documents don't indicate any problem with the officers being exposed to classified information. I'm not sure how many witnesses remain today. I interviewed the pilot and a retired Air Force fireman from Wendover. Since the A-12 was declassified in 1982, the pilot has told his story to various authors and journalists. i am not aware of any other witnesses coming forward with their version of events. Perhaps the cover story was so effective, they simply never thought their was any interesting story to tell. They may have forgotten all about it and never saw the books or magazines in which the tale has been published. A more important aspect of the incident is the crash site itself. The airplane struck the ground inverted, leaving a nearly perfect impression of its planform in the soil. It bounced and shattered into thousands of pieces.The impact site was in unpopulated desert, 14 miles from Wendover, and out of site of the highway. Personnel from Area 51 had complete control of the scene for as long as necessary. Clean-up of the site was top priority. Accident investigation was secondary. Less than 30 hours after impact, the scene commander sent a message to CIA Headquarters that all traces of the aircraft had been removed. Security personnel continued to patrol the area for a week looking for the pilot's emergency kit. When I visited the crash site in 2003, I found that the impact crater still retains the identifiable shape of the A-12. The impression of the tail fins, engine nacelles, and aft fuselage are clearly visible. I also found thousands of pieces of debris ranging in size from individual rivets to an 18-inch-long piece of wing structure. Debris includes titanium skin and internal components, composite anti-radar (stealth) materials, electronics, cockpit pieces, engine parts, and a camera lens. There were many components that can be identified as A-12 parts by comparing them to photos, maintenance manuals, or museum display aircraft. Others can be identified by their materials, construction methods, or markings (part numbers and inspection stamps). Most of the items were scattered on the surface, but a few were buried beneath an inch or two of soil. The site had clearly not been sanitized, despite the assertions in the TOP SECRET memo to CIA Headquarters. This is just one case study. There are many others. Investigators might use them as a lens through which to examine such events as the Roswell Incident.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:31:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:57:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Clark >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >Brad: >You're doing some heavy lifting here to convince Michael Salla >that he is in error (or worse) about Corso. >Dr. Salla, bless his soul, has dragged you and others to a side- >room of ufology, and has been more effective than any >disinformation group in side-tracking the UFO debate. >Corso is badly tainted. Let's stop wasting time on the guy. >Dr. Salla is on a mission that has little or nothing to do with >the UFO enigma, really... >You, Brad, are too smart a guy to get bogged down by the nonsense. My sentiments precisely. Salla is a classic true believer who is not amenable to reasonable arguments or anything that hints of doubt, however sensible and well-grounded. He has the right to believe whatever he wants, which appears to be just about everything. The rest of us have the right to ignore him and to pursue activities that actually may get us somewhere. It's time for the smart people like Brad, Kevin, and all who have wasted time trying to reason with Salla, under the mistaken impression that actual evidence is at issue here, to move on. We need their deep
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:12:45 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage - Balaskas >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:47:09 -0400 >Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:54:22 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Russian MIR 'UFO' Footage <snip> >>The "second radar blip" is the U.S. Space Shuttle Atlantis after >>it undocked from the Russian Mir Space Station (November 18, >>1995) and photographed it from space. >Hello Nick, >If you look at the segment of the video where the camera records >the time and date data on the 'big board' you'll see that the >footage in question was being recorded on November 10, 1995. >That's a full 8 days _before_ the scheduled undocking procedure >you cited above. Here are the days stats: <snip> Hi John! Unless my eyesight is failing me or my 19 inch monitor is not big enough, the date on the 'big board' in the video clip you provided actually says 18.11.95, not November 10, 1995. Also, on that same 'big board' you can see a picture of the crew of the U.S. shuttle Atlantis (STS-74) which includes our Canadian astronaut friend, Chris Hadfield! >>Fellow Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield was on this shuttle >>(mission STS-74) which visited Mir. He did not notice anything >>strange and unexplained during this space flight - at least >>anything he cared to share with us. >I'll see your Canadian Astronaut who saw nothing, and raise you >the testimony of a Russian cosmonaut that did 'see something!' >And not just 'anything' either. Can you guess 'what' he reported >observing in space? That's right, a 'sphere'. <snip> Yes, but not on the date in question. Unless you are suggesting that the late Gennadi Strekalov who retired as a cosmonaut _before_ this alleged UFO incident was also present on MIR in a vodka induced out-of-body experience, I will have to call your bluff! As for Chris Hadfield, a Top Gun who and a CF-18 pilot who was sent out to intercept UFOs intruding in Canadian airspace many time (these UFOs usually turned out to be Russian bombers testing our defenses which he would turn around and escort back over international waters), the likely reason why he did not mention about these tiny tumbling "UFOs" in space shown in the video is because they were just what are often seen after two spacecraft undock - space debris! >The whole report can be heard on the same video the MIR footage >is taken from. This phenomena is not so easily blown off or >explained, Nick. I can imagine that a lot of the reports of this >phenomena conflict with your fundamentalist Christian beliefs. >Regardless, this is something that demands much more attention >to detail than the 'quick and easy' dismissal you have given it >here. This is the correct explanation whether you want to believe it or not. >Like it or not... there's more here than meets the eye. "Drunken >aliens", I don't think so Nick. This is something inscrutable >that defies easy explanation or dismissal. Almost 'alien' eh! :) Although I have no problem with what you or anyone else believes, we should not be too quick to dismiss all other possibilities including what our late mothers told us about what they believed their UFO experiences to be. The demonic/religious explanation is still one of the most reasonable and logical ones when trying to understand ETs/UFOs whose behaviour more appropriate to malicious and mischievous sexual perverts than ET astronaut explorers from other planets. I too have purchased copies of these videos which allegedly show UFOs in space directly from the late Graham Birdsall of UFO Magazine (UK) and have shared with friends and colleagues, including space scientists. We were not impressed, especially those who have personally observed very strange and unexplained things in space. Such videos only strengthen the case of skeptics who use them as proof that UFOs are not real unknowns or worthy of study.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: An Abductee's View Of Roswell From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:29:02 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:04:07 -0400 Subject: Re: An Abductee's View Of Roswell Hello, I am relatively new to this List and am excited that so many big names in the field are active here. Here's my opinion on the Roswell Situation, Has any researcher ever considered that this may have been a type of "Trojan Horse"? As an abductee I have concerns that these aliens are involved in a colonization project and that our society was just a bit primitive for their needs. In order for us to be more compatible they needed to "Fast Forward" our
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:09:01 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:06:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Bourdais >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:26:57 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >>Subject: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >I could also supply the quotes on anomalous thin metal debris from Marcel Jr., Rickett, Exon, etc., but Listers can go read them for themselves at the above links. I think the point is made that there is no resemblance whatsoever between the metal Marcel, Brazel Jr., etc. described and alleged shredded foil/paper radar chaff. Thank you, David, for giving again a very thorough analysis. I just see two cents to add: this radar chaff would have been
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:35 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:07:42 -0400 Subject: Re: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:07:22 -0300 >Subject: Re: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov 4-6 >>From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:04:48 -0700 >>Subject: 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Nov 4-6 ><snip> >>BROOMFIELD, CO July 28, 2005 Announcing the 3rd Annual UFO Crash >>Retrieval Conference, the worlds only public event dedicated >>exclusively to compelling evidence, aftermath and implications >>of crash retrievals. The conference starts Friday afternoon at >>4:00 PM, November 4 through Sunday afternoon, November 6 at the >>Embassy Suites Hotel and Convention center in Las Vegas, Nevada, >>just minutes from the airport and downtown. Details are >>available on www.ufoconference.com, the first 25 to sign up get >>a free copy of this years proceedings! <snip> >Althought I will not be present at the conference, as it was my >original plan, I have sent Ryan Wood a full and updated report >on the Varginha Case, January 20, 1996, to be included in the >proceedings. >I just cannot understand a crash and retrieval conference >anywhere in the world without the Varginha Case, a newer and >much, much bolder version of the Roswell case. Hi Everyone! Actually, one of of the invited speakers to this conference, Dr. Roger Leir, will be talking about the Varginha case. Roger's talk is titled 'Varginha: Brazil Crash Retrieval Case'. For those like A. J. and I who cannot attend this important annual conference, you can order a copy of Roger's excellent paperback book 'UFO Crash in Brazil' which came out earlier this year. Although I agree that the Varginha, Brazil UFO crash/retrieval case is a very important and relatively recent incident, it is only one of many such important cases, including the 1967 Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia UFO incident - Canada's own Roswell case. Don Ledger and Chris Styles* wrote about this Canadian UFO crash in their own excellent paperback book 'Dark Object: The World's Only Government-Documented UFO Crash'. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:57:31 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Friedman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:58:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:00:50 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>Nick excuse me if I missed the data, but did you cover the >>reports by Marcel and others of debris that was very strong and >>If so, where do you have it noted in your latest book? >Greg >No one (not even me!) disputes that Marcel made statements to >the effect that the material had unique and highly >unusual/anomalous properties. >However, try and put yourself in the mind of someone with no >pre-conceived notions or biases about the Roswell debris. >Yes, Marcel said what he said. Brazel died years before any UFO >researchers could interview him and ask the specific sorts of >questions that needed to be asked. >But the photos with Marcel do not show what appears to be that >unique debris (yes, we all know about the possibility that >debris was switched for the photos), but the fact is that we >have photos of Marcel with what look like balloon materials. >Brazel's son Bill said that the material was "on the order of >tinfoil." >Brazel's daughter, Bessie, said it looked like "piece of a large >balloon which had burst." >Loretta Proctor, Brazel's neighbor, said that Brazel showed her >a piece of material that was brown in color and told her that: >"the other material on the property looked like aluminum foil." >Marcel also said that it was "like a metal with plastic >properties." >Bill Brazel said that it was "almost like a plastic, but >definitely metallic...it wouldn't tear." >Cavitt said it was balloon debris. Yes, I know there are many >who are highly suspicious of Cavitt's comments (particularly the >scenario surrounding his comments to the Air Force re their >Mogul investigation). <snip> Nick the real question is whether anything Cavitt said was true. He avoided answering questions posed by Bill Moore in person after I had located him 25+ years ago. His wife told Bill, when he was out of the room, that Cavitt had been told not to say anything. To Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt he tried to deny having even been at Roswell in July 1947. He claimed, to disinformation Specialist Colonel Weaver, that he immediately recognized the wreckage as a balloon covering an area of 20 feet square and easily fitting in a vehicle. Even the July 9, 1947 RDR article says the wreckage covered an area 200 yards in diameter... no less 3/4 of a mile by a few hundred feet. If it had fit in one vehicle, it would have been dropped off in town and Marcel and Cavitt never would have gone out on a pain-in-the-neck jaunt. Brazel would never have been concerned about his sheep not crossing a 20' debris field.Lots of land out there. Of course Cavitt said nothing about string, sonobuoys, ballast and the other 20-25 balloons. Cavitt claimed he had never met the rancher. How else could he and Marcel have located the wreckage except by following Brazel? No GPS back then. His testimony also conflicts with the testimony of Bill Brazel, Jesse Marcel Jr., Lou Rickett, etc. Everybody back then knew about tinfoil. It was used in cigarette packs, gum wrappers, milkbottle caps... saved during the war. It certainly could be easily torn by a five year old as opposed to being memory metal which could not be torn... no match at all and there would have been no problem recognizing it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:01 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:15:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC > >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:46:26 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] - Sp arks >>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:27:27 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone ><snip> >>>>The official record of the "Hearings Before The Select Committee >>>>On POW/MIA Affairs," dated 11-10,11-1992 list Corso as: >>>>"Lt. Col. Phillip [sic] Corso (USA, Retired) National Security >>>>Council Staff, Eisenhower administration." >>>>The "NSC issue" for me (as Stan would say) is in my "gray >>>>basket" I would appreciate input as to why Corso would be listed >>>>as NSC in a "legal congressional document" if he was not. <snip> >>What follows is a description from the Robert Cutler who wrote >>an official history for the CIA about his experience while >>serving as Eisenhower's Special Assistant for National Security >>Affairs. Cutler served on the Psychological Strategy Board, the >>NSC Planning Board and the Operations Coordinating Board from >>the years 1951-58: >>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0001.htm >>This is what Cutler said about the structure of the NSC and the >>roles of the Planning Board and the Operations Coordining Board: <snip> >>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. ><snip> >Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it >and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the >President for National Security. >By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July >1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like >the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to >put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! EO 10483 establishing the OCB in 1953 certainly referred to the OCB as an "independent agency" but functionally it was part of the NSC created to coordinate efforts between different government agencies and military departments for a coordinated National Security policy which was why the NSC was created in 1947. The references to the OCB NSC by Robert Cutler, the FBI file on Corso, the White House record on the NSC, etc., all point to the OCB being functionally a part of the NSC system from its inception. It's designation as 'independent' in the 1953 EO was purely a political designation rather than a functional description of its function and mission. It's clear from what occurred that those who served in the OCB viewed it as part of the NSC since the OCB had to both report to and execute decisions handed down from the NSC comprising the cabinet level officials described by statute. The independence of the CIA and the OCB was in no way analogous. The OCB was created by an Executive Order as an executive committee attached to the NSC but physically located in the State Department. The CIA is an is an agency established by Conressional Statute where Congress exercizes direct oversight of the CIA. The body exercizing exclusive oversight of the OCB was the NSC and Congress played no role. This is a very significant difference and why your point is mistaken. There is no analogy here between the CIA and the OCB. The OCB was functionally part of the NSC and never established as a truly independent agency such as CIA which was established by federal statute. >By 1958 when Cutler left, it was indeed an "NSC Operations >Coordinating Board." But it was _not_ any such thing in 1954-6 >when Corso was on the OCB staff. >Was Cutler supposed to footnote every word of his memoir to >exactly identify dates when those words precisely applied? No I >think not, he applied the terminal description of the NSC in the >structure as it existed when he left it in 1958, when the NSC >had indeed had the OCB merged within its structure pursuant to >Presidential Executive Order 10700. Your idea that Cutler used the terminal description of the OCB upon his departure in 1958 is flawed. At no point did Cutler describe the OCB as an independent entity distinct from the NSC. It was functionally part of the NSC from its inception. The 1957 EO formally incorporating the OCB into the NSC only made legal what had been functionally occuring since 1953. >Your national security history is skewed and biased, >tendentiously designed to desperately find some out-of- context >quote to misinterpret in support of Corso, who clearly lied >about serving on the NSC staff, when it was in reality the OCB >staff, contrary to his own military records which say nothing >about the NSC or an "NSC Operations Coordinating Board," since >no such entity existed in 1954-6. You are overstating your case here. All you have been able to demonstate is that there exists an EO issued in 1957 that formally incorporated the OCB into the NSC. That might lead some to conclude that the OCB was independent of the NSC prior to its legal incorporation in 1957. Functionally, this was not the case as I have argued. It was clear that those who served on or described the OCB in the years 1954-56 viewed it as part of the NSC. You are missing the point that functionally the OCB was part of the NSC during the time of Corso's service on it and he was entitled to describe himself as a staff member of the NSC. This is moreso the case since subsequent to its formal incorporation into the NSC in 1957, any reference to the OCB as an independent agency established by Executive Order that made it functionally part of the NSC but legally independent would have only confused people. Corso was entitled to claim he served as an NSC staff member due to his service on the OCB. I think the epithets "skewed and biased" are certainly appropriate in your tendentious efforts to dismiss the significance of the OCB being functionally a part of the NSC since the OCB's inception. >Corso did not provide the kind of clever but false clarification >that you have attempted by referring to something like an "NSC >Operations Coordinating Board," nor an "NSC OCB" or any such >thing that did not in fact exist in 1954-6 when he served on the >OCB, when the OCB was still 'independent' of the NSC. He just >flatout lied and perjured himself saying he was a "member" of >the NSC (which would be a Cabinet rank position!) in his April >1998 Affidavit, and/or at other times said that he had been an >"NSC Staff" member. Nothing about "OCB" at all when he talked >about his alleged service on the NSC. Thus Corso's military >records trip him up, proving him a liar, as they show service on >the OCB not on the "NSC." I concur with Ed Gehrman who made an excellect point that Corso made some errors in describing his role but did not at any point willfully lie or intend to deceive. http://www.caus.org/membercomments/mc062900.shtml The 1998 CAUS affidavit clearly states that Corso was a "member of the NSC" which was incorrect. Corso may be forgiven for his error since he was 82, very sick and passed away two months later. Corso erred in the affidavit but was correct in his earlier descriptions of having served as a "staff member of the NSC". The OCB was functionally part of the NSC. All the evidence in terms of the functions and descriptions by the FBI, CIA and White House description all point to this. You ignore this. >If we adopted your false view of national security history, >there would have been no need for Ike to issue an Executive >Order merging the OCB into the NSC. By your reasoning the OCB >was always a part of the NSC. So Ike's Executive Order must be a >fabrication, a figment of the imagination in your crazy pro- >Corso pro-nutball view. >When OCB was still 'independent' of the NSC it was not >functioning effectively because of that very separation from the >NSC. As a result, William H. Jackson prepared a study that >recommended to President Eisenhower on Dec. 31, 1956, that the >OCB be "integrated" into the NSC. Eisenhower agreed, overruling >the dissent of Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, and issued >Executive Order 10700 on Feb. 27, 1957, merging the >"independent" OCB into the NSC effective July 1, 1957. You are missing the obvious point here that it was interdepartmental politics that necessitated the 1953 EO creating the OCB as an independent agency. As an independent agency, the OCB could by institutionally housed, as was its predecessor the Psychological Strategy Board, in the State Department, thereby augmenting Dulles influence. If the OCB had been formally incorporated into the NSC from the beginning, it would have been housed in the Executive Office with other NSC departments thereby representing a loss of influence for Dulles, something he strenously objected to. Despite the OCB being institionally situated on State Department facilities, it was functionally part of the NSC. By 1957, interdepartmental politics made it possible for a new EO merely formalizing what had been functionally occuring since 1953. The OCB was able to therefore move lock, stock and barrel over to the Executive Office. You dismiss the political factors that contextualize the issuing of Executive Orders which may have nothing to do with the functional activities and missions of 'independent agencies' such as the OCB. All the evidence points to the OCB being functionally part of the NSC prior to the 1957 EO formally incorporaing it into the NSC. I understand your error here which is based on a literal reading of the 1957 EO and not understanding the political context and the specific functions of the OCB which made it part of the NSC while being physically located at the State Department. >Apparently, in order to defend Corso's blatant lies, you must >view Jackson's study of the OCB's ineffectiveness due to OCB's >separation from the NSC structure, as a mirage, a nonexistent >document. To you the fact Jackson had to conduct such a study >must be a joke. To you Eisenhower's endorsement of Jackson's >recommendation to merge the OCB into the NSC was a needless and >pointless exercise -- or maybe it was a fabricated history >designed to cover up Corso's glorious career and lies, like all >the other bogus "whistleblowers" you claim had their personal >histories allegedly erased or altered. So Ike's Executive Order >10700, merging the OCB into the NSC a year after Corso was long >gone, must be a fake, no such executive order. You refer to Corso's "blatant lies". How can I or anyone else give whistleblowers a fair hearing if you ignore the political context that exists in the issuing of Executive Orders and the performance of classified projects such as waived Special Access Programs whose very existence and authorizations are secrets? Politics is a fundamental part of the national security system and by extension of UFO research which is based on investigating a phenemonon that has great national security implications. You completely ignore the functional role of the OCB that made it part of the NSC during Corso's service on it. Despite the evidence that I and others have given that it has been standard practice for members and historical researchers to refer to the OCB as part of the NSC, you doggedly insist that it is only EO 10700 which made it so. EO 10700 merely formalized a functional arrangement that had made the OCB part of the NSC since its inception in 1953. Corso was not lying. Corso was a very highly decorated military intelligence officer who served on some of the most powerful committees dealing with covert operations. Aside from this discussion having importance in terms of Corso's credibility as a whistleblower of a classified project disseminating ET technologies, there is another connection here for UFO research. The OCB is the successor to the Psychological Strategy Board which according to one Majestic Document, was created by MAJCOM-1 and the executive committee designed to oversee UFOs and the ETH. This connection is worth pursuing and shows how the Majestic Documents can give us another interesting perspective on the covert management of UFO/ETH data.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Salla's Support OF Meier - Burke From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:18:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla's Support OF Meier - Burke >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:56:02 -0700 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Salla's Support OF Meier [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] >>To assert, as Salla does, that Meier's claims have withstood >>serious investigation, is uninformed at best and disingenuous at >>worst.... >On the contrary, Salla has shown that he's pretty well informed >on this particular subject. Jim If you're telling me that Dr Maccabbe has done a "flip-flop" on this issue, he may want to consider running for President. I'll read his new article on pendulum-like movement related activities when I get the chance. Thanks for the link! Nevertheless, many serious researchers (outside of the armchair debunker crowd) such as Jacques Vallee, have emphasized the suspicious nature of the Meier case. Aside from the movie, there was the saucer model found at Meier's house, there was the model (human, female-type) identified in the picture alleged to be of Semjase, there was the photo of the Gemini capsule that Meier claimed to have taken from a UFO (which actually had appeared previously in National Geographic) as well as other concerns. If you believe that the Meier case deserves another look, I sincerely wish you the best of luck! May you find Semjase's DNA! (Although I don't mean to suggest that you should go looking for DNA where they found it in that other case, uhh ... "Down Under" so to speak ...)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 The Great British UFO Show Latest From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:22:49 -0400 Subject: The Great British UFO Show Latest ----- From: Russel Callaghan <webmaster.nul> Dear all, Just an update to remind you that the October 1st date for our first ever Great British UFO Show is approaching. To those of you who have purchased tickets already, thank you. If you still have to get your tickets then here is a gentle reminder of how to obtain them. You can pay by personal cheque or postal order made out to: UFODATA and sent to: UFODATA PO Box 280 Leeds LS26 1AN UK Or if you prefer you can pay online securely via our PayPal Account. You don't need a PayPal account of your own simply pay by credit/debit card at the following link: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr If you have not been on the website for a while it is worth a look. We add articles and stories daily and this subject keeps on generating information from all over the world. We are currently working on a new area of the site where surfers will be able to purchase 'eBooks' or CD books by some of the subject's great writers, this will be activated shortly. We are also able to offer publication services to writers who have manuscripts in their possession and anyone wishing to find out more should contact us directly. This subject never fails to amaze, there are new reports happening almost daily, evidence in the form of video and photographs is still being captured and it is the intention of this website to bring you such evidence when possible. This subject is not just about now I am sure many of our readers have experienced the subject first hand and we would love to hear of your encounters so please anything you want to share with us and our community please email to: subs.nul Until the next time when we hope to have a very special announcement for you, thanks for the interest and support. Regards.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 US History Channel's 'UFO HUNTERS' - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:07:16 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:24:36 -0400 Subject: US History Channel's 'UFO HUNTERS' - Friedman Those Listers who can pick up the US History Channel will be pleased, it says here, to know that on Monday, August 1, there will be broadcast a one hour special, The UFO Hunters. John Greenewald was heavily involved. Among those featured will be Nick Pope, Nick Redfern, Paul Stonehill, Ted Phillips, Roger Leir, John Schuessler, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:52:46 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Hall >From: Neil Morris <neil.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:38:10 +0100 >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >>Subject: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>List, ><snip> >>He has gone as far as he feels he comfortably can in terms of >>divulging what he knows about the Roswell events and how he >>knows; and, for that reason and no other, I am opening up his >>information to the List. >>Basically his story comes down to this - that at least one test >>of the type cited in Body Snatchers involved a flight-test of a >>prototype aircraft in conjunction with the dispersal over a >>specific area of the New Mexico desert of tinfoil type materials >>- as was done during the Second World War - as a way of off- >>setting the value of radar in terms of tracking the device, and >>that the prototype aircraft involved crashed. >>His statements and descriptions sound very much like the crash >>at the Foster Ranch that have led to the Roswell story. I now >>wonder if possibly the picture of what happened at Roswell as >>cited in my book has an extra angle to it as well. >>The sources I interviewed for the book admitted that - decades >>on - they did not recall every minute detail. I would have been >>highly suspicious if they did. See page 118, final paragraph for >>specific data on this latter point. >>According to the sources in the book, the Roswell event was an >>attempt to create a hybrid style device (a combination of >>aircraft and balloon) that failed. >>The new source, however, claims that while this was indeed >correct, an extra component of that same experiment involved the >dispersal of the aforementioned tinfoil to determine its value >in affecting the ability of radar to adequately - or "correctly" >might be a better term - track this device. >>Therefore, it may be that some of the materials found at the >>Foster Ranch were not just from the balloon and the aircraft, >>but that some it might have been the aforementioned tinfoil that >>was to be used in this experiment. >Nick, >I'm afraid this sounds like utter BS being fed to you. I agree. There is no way radar chaff would fool anyone. People used to submit samples of chaff to us at NICAP in the early 1960s, and it looked exactly like the silver `icicles' used to decorate Christmas trees. Presumably its use was phased out not long afterwards when electromagnetic countermeasures became more sophisticated. I believe there are some samples of radar chaff stored in perpetuity (which I find very amusing) at the National Archives in their UFO `artifact' collection, along with such
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Michio Kaku On Physics Of Alien Civilizations From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:53:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:30:45 -0400 Subject: Michio Kaku On Physics Of Alien Civilizations
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 French UFO Conference Oct 14-16 From: Bruno Mancusi <swissufo.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:12:27 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:32:39 -0400 Subject: French UFO Conference Oct 14-16 An European UFO Congress will be held in Chalons-en-Champagne, France, on October 14-16, featuring Joseph Altairac, Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos, Michel Bougard, Gildas Bourdais, Marie-Therese de Brosses, Budd Hopkins, Didier Gomez, Jean-Gabriel Gresle, Jiri Kult, Yves Lignon, Auguste Meessen, Bertrand Meheust, Joel Mesnard, Claude Poher, Jean-Luc Rivera, Edoardo Russo, Jean-Pierre Troadec. Registration: free. http://www.les-repas-ufologiques.com http://www.chalons-en-champagne.net I'm not the organizer. For information, please contact: Alain Blanchard <alain.blanchard34.nul> or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:34:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Velez >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case Hi Alfred, Eugene, Bill, All, Bill wrote: >>>What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >>>should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >>>abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >>>experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >>>I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >>>determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >>>speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >>>believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. Eugene responded: >>I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >>a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >>been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >>'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >>MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >>2004). >>Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's >>Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) >>leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away >>from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that >>applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe >>that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies >>when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves >>something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly >>assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. I have been calling for precisely this approach to abduction investigations since day one. I am in complete agreement with Eugene's suggested approach. The first time I 'came out' publicly was in January 1995 (at the behest of Budd Hopkins) for the NOVA segment on abduction. I naively thought that NOVA was going to do some actual 'science reporting' and maybe even conduct a few 'tests' of their own, as they have done on so many other programs they have produced. I invited them to polygraph me, to have me evaluated by a psychologist or psychiatrist of their own choosing, I invited them into my home to interview my family, friends, former employers etc. (in order to establish my character and that I was telling the truth,) and I also invited them to conduct _any_ kind of (non-destructive) testing they wished on my house/home. I figured, maybe these 'things' leave radiation traces, magnetic anomalies, whatever, behind. Sadly, they had their own pre-approved 'agenda' and they never took me up on my offer. It has been my contention all along that the 'proof' everyone has been seeking is 'in' the abductees. When I met and spoke with Dr. Michio Kaku (when I attended the symposium in Washington DC that was hosted by the Podesta-Mattoon/Sci-Fi channel 'coalition') he told me, " They should be looking for nano-technology in the blood and bodies of the abductees." He told me that if such devices were to be found (using electron- microscopy I would imagine) it would be 'proof positive' of the intervention into human lives and affairs of an highly advanced technological civilization. Why none of this has been tried is beyond my ken. Eugene, you're on the right track. 'If' this is a real, physical phenomenon, then it is a foregone conclusion that 'some form' of evidence is going by the boards simply because no one is looking for it! >Nonsense. You are presupposing, misqualifying, and >anthropomorphizing again. I'll bet Edmond Locard was not >remotely thinking about alien traces beyond the scope of your >pompous assiduousness, and you dissemble, Sir, to suggest that >he has. I'm reminded of the ant... crawled out, even arduously >and bravely, to the end of the picayune bottom twig it's found >itself upon to believe that it has scaled the tallest sequoia >tree and _understands_ the whole of the forest. Alfred, you know I love you, man. And I know where you're coming from, but... if we're ever going to turn up any 'hard evidence' then we need to apply every 'proven' method we know of to test, probe, prod, document, record the phenomena in any way we can. At the moment, the 'tool of choice' admittedly faulted and limited as it is, is the scientific method. We all know it's far from perfect, but if results which can be replicated can be tickled out of the evidence we do have, then I say we go for it. Unless you have a better means of accomplishing this up your sleeve, established scientific investigation methods and protocols is all we have. >>If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >>same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >>through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >>find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >>the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >>nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. Right on! I agree 100%. If nothing else, we'd have one hell of a lot more answers than we do right now! I hope one day mainstream academics will put their preconceptions on the side and actually look into this phenomenon that has turned the lives of countless thousands upside-down! Bill Chalker is on the right track. Wish there were 10 more of him out there. You have no clue as to how badly I want out of all this public crap and to simply get back to my life. Until an 'answer' is found, here we all are. I remain to counter the drivel of the arm-chair skepti-bunkers whose public proclamations do more to retard progress than anyone, anything, else.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Reliance On 'agents' Info & Official Archives From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:48:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:22:27 -0400 Subject: Reliance On 'agents' Info & Official Archives Hello List, Have had some experience of folk (some on-List) either being given bait of 'inside information' by agents of security orgs or being stymied by 'official archive' info. Agents must be presumed to be lying, unless they're suicidal - security agencies control the police files (fake criminal records), pensions and indeed the life expectancy of both the agents _and_ their nearest and dearest, and all agents know this. Likewise with all archives - nothing is outside the influence of men who've been given total authority - i.e. any IDs they need. So, many exclusion hypotheses (skeptical) are invalid, because they haven't factored in these plain (but unpalatable) truths. Note: this comment could have been made by many who are _not_ agents but close enough to be locked up - legally, for a long time if they speak out. Which is probably why you don't hear it very often. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:22:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:24:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - White >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:35:11 -0700 >Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore <snip> >I am predicting that the Exopolitcs Institute will be >quite successful. Because it offers a clear picture, certainty, >and the hope of salvation (via the agency of Space Brothers). Hmph. The exopolitics I'm interested in are the machinations
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: US History Channel's 'UFO HUNTERS' - Gammon From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:34:41 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:27:24 -0400 Subject: Re: US History Channel's 'UFO HUNTERS' - Gammon >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:07:16 -0300 >Subject: US History Channel's 'UFO HUNTERS' >Those Listers who can pick up the US History Channel will be >pleased, it says here, to know that on Monday, August 1, there >will be broadcast a one hour special, The UFO Hunters. >John Greenewald was heavily involved. >Among those featured will be Nick Pope, Nick Redfern, Paul >Stonehill, Ted Phillips, Roger Leir, John Schuessler, and >myself... We don't get it here in New Brunswick. >Comments welcome. On Saturday, July 30th The History Channel is also airing 4 one
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:53:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Maccabee >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:33:08 -0700 >Subject: Debris at the Foster Ranch >In the wake of the publication of my Body Snatchers book, I have >been contacted by various people (as usually happens with most >authors) claiming to be able to fill in a few gaps in the story. >I am working on a paper that will detail the new sources and >data, and that is an-going situation re. interviewing those >sources. However, one letter-writer provided a story and refused t>o enter into follow-up debate. For that reason, I am sharing it >with the List, as I can go no further with him. >He worked in the DoD in the 70s, and stated that part of his job >was focused upon determining the then-current capabilities of >Soviet radar and forecasting likely future trends and >developments in that area. >He has gone as far as he feels he comfortably can in terms of >divulging what he knows about the Roswell events and how he >knows; and, for that reason and no other, I am opening up his >information to the List. >Basically his story comes down to this - that at least one test >of the type cited in Body Snatchers involved a flight-test of a >prototype aircraft in conjunction with the dispersal over a >specific area of the New Mexico desert of tinfoil type materials >- as was done during the Second World War - as a way of off- >setting the value of radar in terms of tracking the device, and >that the prototype aircraft involved crashed. <snip> >"The Director advised on August 14, 1947, that the Los Angeles >papers were carrying headlines indicating that Soviet espionage >agents had been instructed to determine the facts relative to >the flying discs. The article carried a Washington date line and >indicated that Red espionage agents had been ordered to solve >the question of the flying discs, the Russians being of the >opinion that this might be some new form of defense perfected by >the American military. The article further recalled that during >the recent war pieces of tin foil had been dropped in the air >for the purpose of off-setting the value of radar being used by >the enemy forces and that these aluminum discs might be a new >development along this line. The Director inquired as to whether >the Bureau had any such information." >Ladd advised Tamm that with regard to the theory that the >Soviets were looking, they had "no information relative to such >a story." >However, what is particularly interesting is that this official >FBI memorandum and the news article makes a specific connection >between flying discs and pieces of tinfoil being "dropped" in an >attempt to foil radar. The same FBI, in the official order to investigate suggested (Schulgen) that the saucers might be a "celestial phenomenon" (perhaps he was thinking of meteors or the "ice meteor" theory that had been published) and, in the official directive to investigate, suggested that "disc-shaped gliders" could be towed behind an airplane and released and would achievea high speed as they fell to the earth. >The important thing is that we may now have an even more >intriguing mix of materials at the ranch. Not just balloon >materials and small pieces of aircraft wreckage, but tinfoil >type materials that were to be utilized in a radar-related >experiment focused upon tracking the device. <snip> >But if some of the material was already fragmented tinfoil to >begin with - as per this radar experiment and as per this FBI >document - then this might answer the question of why we have >some people at the site talking about balloon debris (Cavitt, >Bessie Brazel Schreiber) and others talking about smaller >fragments of material. >Notably, Marcel stated that "we picked up fragments." And Mack >Brazel's son, Bill, said it was "something on the order of >tinfoil." >I submit that these could be _exact_ descriptions of this >material used in the radar aspect of the experiment/crash and >that the fact that it was _already _fragmented_to_begin_with is >what led Marcel to erroneously assume it had exploded in the air >and rained down debris. This radar 'chaff', if I recall correctly, consists of narrow strips of aluminum foil, intended to create strong radar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:09 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:01 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. <snip> >>Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it >>and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the >>President for National Security. >>By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July >>1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like >>the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to >>put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! >EO 10483 establishing the OCB in 1953 certainly referred to the >OCB as an "independent agency" but functionally it was part of >the NSC created to coordinate efforts between different >government agencies and military departments for a coordinated >National Security policy which was why the NSC was created in >1947. The CIA was also an 'independent agency' created with the NSC in the same law in 1947 (National Security Act) to "coordinate efforts between different government agencies" for the NSC and it directly reported to the NSC. Yet the CIA was never a part of the NSC. CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's and say "NSC Staff member"! This is double-talk and you know it! You've been caught cold, dude! Admit it. Corso inflated his resume' with a non-existent "NSC Staff" service when his military records prove he merely served on the OCB. >The references to the OCB NSC by Robert Cutler, the FBI >file on Corso, the White House record on the NSC, etc., all >point to the OCB being functionally a part of the NSC system >from its inception. It's designation as 'independent' in the >1953 EO was purely a political designation rather than a >functional description of its function and mission. <snip> All that double-talk is belied by the fact that William H. Jackson in 1956 had to conduct a study as to why the OCB was not functioning effectively. The reason was simple: The OCB did not have the authority of the NSC and the President behind it! The OCB was not a part of the NSC so its suggestions for "coordination" were ignored by the national security agencies and departments. The concept of OCB getting "voluntary cooperation" was not working because OCB had no NSC power to enforce. It's a simple concept which any poli sci professor should be able to grasp instantly. Thus Jackson reported back to Eisenhower on Dec. 31, 1956, and Jan. 3, 1957, that the OCB needed to have Presidential (or Vice- Presidential) authority via the NSC to back up its orders, and so the OCB needed to be "integrated" directly into the NSC functionally. The OCB was not part of the NSC and thus had no power or authority to enforce its orders. Once OCB was part of the NSC it would be able to issue direct orders in the name of the NSC. Eisenhower agreed and ordered OCB merged into the NSC July 1, 1957, by his Executive Order 10700. Do you get that? The President had to personally intervene to make the OCB part of the NSC - long after Corso was long gone from the OCB. Later histories and FBI references from the 60's look back on an OCB that ended its days as a part of the NSC from 1957- 1961. But Corso was with the OCB only from 1954 to 1956, when OCB was a "voluntary cooperation" type of paper-tiger agency that was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Cassini Finds Active Watery World At Saturn's From: NASANews.nul Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:45:15 -0400 Subject: Cassini Finds Active Watery World At Saturn's Erica Hupp/Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington (Phone: 202/358-1237/1753) Carolina Martinez Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. (Phone: 818/354-9382) RELEASE: 05-207 July 29, 2005 Cassini Finds An Active, Watery World At Saturn's Enceladus Saturn's tiny icy moon Enceladus, which ought to be cold and dead, instead displays evidence for active ice volcanism. NASA's Cassini spacecraft has found a huge cloud of water vapor over the moon's south pole, and warm fractures where evaporating ice probably supplies the vapor cloud. Cassini has also confirmed Enceladus is the major source of Saturn's largest ring, the E-ring. "Enceladus is the smallest body so far found that seems to have active volcanism," said Dr. Torrence Johnson, Cassini imaging- team member at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "Enceladus' localized water vapor atmosphere is reminiscent of comets. 'Warm spots' in its icy and cracked surface are probably the result of heat from tidal energy like the volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io. And its geologically young surface of water ice, softened by heat from below, resembles areas on Jupiter's moons, Europa and Ganymede," Johnson added. Cassini flew within 175 kilometers (109 miles) of Enceladus on July 14. Data collected during that flyby confirm an extended and dynamic atmosphere. This atmosphere was first detected by the magnetometer during a distant flyby earlier this year. The ion and neutral mass spectrometer and the ultraviolet imaging spectrograph found the atmosphere contains water vapor. The mass spectrometer found the water vapor comprises about 65 percent of the atmosphere, with molecular hydrogen at about 20 percent. The rest is mostly carbon dioxide and some combination of molecular nitrogen and carbon monoxide. The variation of water vapor density with altitude suggests the water vapor may come from a localized source comparable to a geothermal hot spot. The ultraviolet results strongly suggest a local vapor cloud. The fact the atmosphere persists on this low-gravity world, instead of instantly escaping into space, suggests the moon is geologically active enough to replenish the water vapor at a slow continuous rate. "For the first time we have a major clue not only to the role of water at the icy moons themselves, but also to its role in the evolution and dynamics of the Saturn system as a whole," said Dr. Ralph L. McNutt, ion and neutral mass spectrometer-team member, Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md. Images show the south pole has an even younger and more fractured appearance than the rest of Enceladus, complete with icy boulders the size of large houses and long, bluish cracks or faults dubbed "tiger stripes." Another Cassini instrument, the composite infrared spectrometer, shows the south pole is warmer than anticipated. Temperatures near the equator were found to reach a frigid 80 degrees Kelvin (minus 316 Fahrenheit), as expected. The poles should be even colder because the sun shines so obliquely there. However, south polar average temperatures reached 85 Kelvin (minus 307 Fahrenheit), much warmer than expected. Small areas of the pole, concentrated near the "tiger stripe" fractures, are even warmer: well over 110 Kelvin (minus 261 Fahrenheit) in some places. "This is as astonishing as if we'd flown past Earth and found that Antarctica was warmer than the Sahara," said Dr. John Spencer, team member of the composite infrared spectrometer, Southwest Research Institute, Boulder, Colo. Scientists find the temperatures difficult to explain if sunlight is the only heat source. More likely, a portion of the polar region, including the "tiger stripe" fractures, is warmed by heat escaping from the interior. Evaporation of this warm ice at several locations within the region could explain the density of the water vapor cloud detected by other instruments. How a 500-kilometer (310-mile) diameter moon can generate this much internal heat and why it is concentrated at the south pole is still a mystery. Cassini's cosmic dust analyzer detected a large increase in the number of particles near Enceladus. This observation confirms Enceladus is a source of Saturn's E-ring. Scientists think micrometeoroids blast the particles off, forming a steady, icy, dust cloud around Enceladus. Other particles escape, forming the bulk of the E ring. The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages the Cassini-Huygens mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Additional information and graphics on these results are available at: http://www.nasa.gov/cassini -end- * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo.nul In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Large New World Discovered Beyond Neptune From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:50:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:50:12 -0400 Subject: Large New World Discovered Beyond Neptune Source: Space.Com http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050729_large_object.html 29 July 2005 - 11:08 am ET Large New World Discovered Beyond Neptune By Robert Roy Britt Senior Science Writer A newfound object in our solar system's outskirts may be larger than any known world after Pluto, scientists said today. It also has a moon. Designated as 2003 EL61, the main object in the two-body system is 32 percent as massive as Pluto and is estimated to be about 70 percent of Pluto's diameter. Other news reports that the object could be twice as big as Pluto are false, according to two astronomers who found the object in separate studies and another expert who has analyzed the data. If the mass is only one-third that of Pluto, then theory holds that it can't be larger than Pluto, according to Brian Marsden of the Minor Planet Center, which serves as a clearinghouse for data on all newfound objects in the solar system. Marsden, who was not involved in the discovery but has reviewed the data, told SPACE.com that the mass estimate is very firm, within 1 or 2 percent. "I don�t think it is bigger than Pluto," he said. Where it fits in This is still a big world, once again raising the prospect that something larger than Pluto might still lurk out there. Scientists base their size calculations in part on the object's reflectivity. Since they don't know exactly how much the surface brightness of distant objects varies, there is some wiggle room in their size estimates. A team led by Mike Brown of Caltech has been observing 2003 EL61 for a year but was seeking more data before announcing the discovery. Brown said today it may possibly be larger than Sedna, which has been the largest known world beyond Neptune other than Pluto. Sedna is between 800 and 1,100 miles in diameter. Pluto is about 1,400 miles across. Brown figures 2003 EL61 has a diameter of around 930 miles. Is there any chance it is bigger than Pluto? "No," Brown said in a telephone interview. "Definitely not." In fact, Brown's team got the new data they had been waiting for, from the Spitzer Space Telescope, last week. While not fully analyzed, he said the Spitzer observations show "absolutely" that the object is not bigger than Pluto. Who gets credit? The object was spotted independently by a group led by Jose-Luis Ortiz of the Sierra Nevada Observatory in Spain. Ortiz' team announced the finding in astronomy circles recently and the finding, including the claim that it might be twice as big as Pluto, was reported by an online news site today. Ortiz said that based on his team's observations, there was one outlying theory could allow 2003 EL61 to be larger than Pluto, but he does not think it is right. "I do not think it is larger than Pluto," Ortiz told SPACE.com today. Brown was surprised last night to learn that Ortiz' group had independently found the object, which only yesterday gained the tag 2003 EL61 from the Minor Planet Center. It was a rare case of one group of astronomers unwittingly scooping another. Brown said that Ortiz' group rightfully deserves credit for making the discovery. About that moon 2003 EL61 orbits the Sun on an elliptical path beyond Neptune in a region of space known as the Kuiper Belt. It is significantly inclined to the main plane of the solar system where most of the planets travel. It is one of several objects out there now known to have a satellite. The moon around 2003 EL61 is small, making up only about 1 percent of the mass of the system, Brown said. "This satellite is the smallest satellite relative to its primary known in the Kuiper belt," Brown said. "Pluto's satellite, Charon, is about 10 percent of the mass of Pluto. Marsden, of the Minor Planet Center, said it is surprising the object was not discovered earlier. He said it was probably just barely too faint to be spotted in the sky survey done by Clyde Tombaugh that led to the discovery of Pluto 75 years ago. Brown's team first spotted 2003 EL61, which had no name at the time, using the Samuel Oschin Telescope at Palomar Observatory on May 6, 2004. They did not realized they had found it until Dec. 28, 2004, after scrutinizing their data in and ongoing effort to find Kuiper Belt Objects. In a series of three images, the object is seen moving across the sky in relation to relatively fixed background stars.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 29 Exeter New Hampshire UFO Saga Continues From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:56:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:56:27 -0400 Subject: Exeter New Hampshire UFO Saga Continues Source: The Exeter News-Letter - Exeter, New Hampshire, USA http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/07292005/news/55154.htm July 29, 2005 UFO Saga Continues By Adam Dolge adolge.nul EXETER - There has been a considerable response to Tuesday�s article in the News-Letter about a recent UFO sighting. Interested local residents and skeptics joined UFO enthusiasts commenting from throughout the nation, and reaction was even received from a French "Ufologist" who recalled two similar sightings in Europe. Yann Marchandin, the French "Ufologist" who contacted the News- Letter via e-mail, said there was a similar UFO sighting in Poland in 1997 and another in 1999. In both incidents, witnesses claimed to have seen large "military ship-sized" tubes, or cigar-shaped objects in the sky. She said this recent report, by an Exeter man who wished to be identified only as "David," was very interesting to her because of its similarities to the two other sightings and also because of his military and aviation background. There were also those who questioned the recent sighting. If the object was so large in the sky, why did nobody else see it, many asked in e-mails sent to the News-Letter. Last Wednesday, Aug. 20, David reported seeing a silver, cigar- shaped object around 3 p.m. that he said was roughly the size of two aircraft carriers. It changed colors to an orange-red before stretching to twice its original size, then disappearing. David is recently retired as a flight engineer with the U.S. Navy and has logged more than 10,000 hours in the air. Contcted this week, David said he couldn�t explain why he alone saw the UFO, and he even asked several of his neighbors if they saw anything odd that day. No one had, he said. He still has several houses to check, as he lives in a neighborhood with about two dozen homes. The Exeter Police Department said there were no reports that day, or since then, of a UFO sighting. Local Federal Aviation Administration officials could not be reached for comment. But Peter Davenport, director of the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, said there are various reasons why no one else witnessed what David did. David submitted a report to the reporting center shortly after his encounter. Davenport said that perhaps David was in the right place at the right time. Also, the object�s technology could have been so
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:56:27 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:32:43 -0400 Subject: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! A blatant misuse of terminology is being foisted on this List. "Whistleblowers" are those who reveal crimes and wrongdoing that have been covered up or suppressed by the government agencies or companies they work for. Think of the whistleblowers in Big Tobacco or the Karen Silkwood case. They revealed illegalities that were being covered up by their employers. What "crimes" by their employers did the purported UFO "whistleblowers" such as Corso or Stone reveal? If anything Corso revealed that he allegedly was allowed by his employers to play a heroic role in saving humanity from alien invasion and conquest of planet Earth (talk about a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Michel From: Lyle Michel <COURTROOMEVIDENCE456.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:04:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Michel >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:09 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >Later histories and FBI references from the 60's look back on an >OCB that ended its days as a part of the NSC from 1957- 1961. >But Corso was with the OCB only from 1954 to 1956, when OCB was >a "voluntary cooperation" type of paper-tiger agency that was >not a part of the NSC. He cannot claim to have been an "NSC >Staff" member. His claims were a lie pure and simple. He had no >more right to claim being an "NSC Staff" member than any CIA >employee or manager does just because the CIA coordinates for >the NSC and reports to the NSC. I think it is important to remember that facts determined long after the facts have been presented in a particular matter are suspect. One of the things the government is very good at is mixing and muddling information to the point where determing with absolute certainty becomes an impossiblity. I feel you can get courtroom-evidence close, but that is probably the best a person can do. The government is just too good at destroying and creating information to determine the truth with absolute certainty. Courtroom-evidence would best come from the eyewitnesses to the events and not from paperwork! Paperwork is just to easy to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Salla's Support OF Meier - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:22:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:59:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla's Support OF Meier - Deardorff >From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:48:44 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Salla's Support OF Meier >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:56:02 -0700 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Salla's Support OF Meier [was: An Interview With Clifford Stone] >>>To assert, as Salla does, that Meier's claims have withstood >>>serious investigation, is uninformed at best and disingenuous at >>>worst.... >>On the contrary, Salla has shown that he's pretty well informed >>on this particular subject. >Jim >If you're telling me that Dr Maccabbe has done a "flip-flop" on >this issue, he may want to consider running for President. Hello John, I didn't say that! You have to decide for yourself how feasible it is to manipulate a dangling model above a little tree 50 ft away from your camera, with one arm. >I'll >read his new article on pendulum-like movement related >activities when I get the chance. Thanks for the link! > >Nevertheless, many serious researchers (outside of the armchair >debunker crowd) such as Jacques Vallee, have emphasized the >suspicious nature of the Meier case. I've noticed that in Vallee's book, Revelations, (pp. 30-34), he derided a Gen. Glenn Miller and also his boss, Gen. Robert Scott, director of the Defense Audiovisual Agency in 1985 at Norton AF Base, for believing in the reality of the Meier case. He found that Miller himself had had a brief contact experience, and that also turned Vallee against him. Vallee called Scott a contactee also, but seemed to dislike him most for believing in the survival of the soul. >Aside from the movie, there was the saucer model found at >Meier's house, You'd do well to read Wendelle Stevens' 1982 book about the models Meier was given and the model he photographed to see how realistic it looked - not realistic of a beamship, he found. Also see the books by Gary Kinder and Guido Moosbrugger on this topic. >there was the model (human, female-type) >identified in the picture alleged to be of Semjase, Not identified, just claimed to be a model from a Sears catalog. Someone else, however, claimed the photo was of a performer from a Dean Martin show. However, the photo in question was of Asket, not Semjase, and in comparing it with the Dean Martin show girl, I don't think the resemblance was very close, except for the blond hairdo. The woman who, as a girl in her grandfather's ashram in India in 1964, knew of Meier pretty well, then when he was visiting and working there for several months; she was a witness not only to Meier taking pictures of Asket's UFOs above the ashram, but a witness of Asket herself (although Asket's hair then was brunette). She has said she recognized Asket's picture years later when seeing the photo of her in the large Meier-case picture book by Lee & Brit Elders. (See www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm.) >there was >the photo of the Gemini capsule that Meier claimed to have taken >from a UFO (which actually had appeared previously in National >Geographic) as well as other concerns. Here I think you've mixed up two different photos. The Gemini- capsule photo is impressive to me because it shows the capsule's solar-panel "wings" in a semi-zigzagging accordian configuration - not fully deployed, whereas the NASA representations showed them fully deployed. Later, from a book by one of the Russian astronauts involved, who was also a pretty good artist, there's his sketch of the way their craft looked, and it shows the solar panels as in Meier's photo. Years later, however, Meier was told by one of his male contactors that all of his photos taken during his 5-day space trip had been subject to tampering while being developed (at a different photo lab than where he usually took his exposed color slides). So from then on Meier hasn't trusted those photos. He apparently accepts all he's told by his contactors as being nothing but the truth. >If you believe that the Meier case deserves another look, I >sincerely wish you the best of luck! It had another look during a day at the Laughlin International UFO Congress of 1999. There's much valuable material on the associated video tapes. >May you find Semjase's DNA! >(Although I don't mean to suggest that you should go looking for >DNA where they found it in that other case, uhh ... "Down Under" >so to speak ...) Meier did once ask Semjase for a lock of her hair, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:00:14 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:04:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:52:25 -0300 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:54:43 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:24 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs <snip> >>>The nuclear pile? What happened to that. >>How many times can I say this? As I >>explain in the book, there is _no_ "nuclear pile" and _no_ >>nuclear angle of any sort to the crash at Roswell. >That does >>not appear _anywhere_ at all in my book. You are confusing this >>with other experiments cited in the book that occurred in New >>Mexico in mid-1947 that were nuclear related. >My mistake. Sorry. Don, You were right the first time and the answer you were given was completely false, misleading by exchanging the word "nuclear" for "atomic." The Colonel in the book (p. 106) does in fact claim there was an "atomic pile" in the flight that crashed in New Mexico in mid-1947. It was a "device" called an "atomic pile" and an "atomic pile" has a very definite meaning of a nuclear reactor using nuclear fission moderating the neutrons by the "pile". According to the Colonel (p. 106) the "device built by us out of the research of these guys" (Reis and Morhard) was "loaded aboard" the Horten-type 80-foot glider aircraft at White Sands in May 1947 even though the "device" was not yet "perfected." Hence it was dangerous. The "device" was "designed to convert heat energy from an atomic pile into electrical energy," the Colonel told Redfern (p. 106) and an unperfected model of this "device" was what purportedly crashed in May 1947. Nuclear reactors or "atomic piles" typically do "convert heat energy into electrical energy" in many types of reactors. Hence it was an actual "device" and not merely some "shielding"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:31:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:06:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Maccabee >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:58:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:00:50 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>Nick excuse me if I missed the data, but did you cover the >>reports by Marcel and others of debris that was very strong and >>If so, where do you have it noted in your latest book? >No one (not even me!) disputes that Marcel made statements to >the effect that the material had unique and highly >unusual/anomalous properties. <snip> >Cavitt said it was balloon debris. Yes, I know there are many >who are highly suspicious of Cavitt's comments (particularly the >scenario surrounding his comments to the Air Force re their >Mogul investigation). <snip> >Now before people jump on me, I am not calling Marcel a liar. I >don't believe he was. But - again from the perspective of an >outsider with no Roswell biases - what is it that makes people >believe that the Marcel testimony is accurate but that the >Cavitt testimony is not? >I'm not saying I full support Cavitt's stance to the Air Force >because I certainly don't, but it's fascinating that the >estimony that is always cited is the testimony in favor of the >debris having unique properties; and the testimony in favor of >balloon-like materials is dismissed as lies and mistakes. Why? >Arguably both Cavitt and Marcel were trained observers, so why >dismiss one in favor of the other?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet From: NASANews.nul Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:12:38 -0400 Subject: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 (Phone: 202/358-1753) Jane Platt Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. (Phone: 818/354-0880) RELEASE: 05-209 NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET A planet larger than Pluto has been discovered in the outlying regions of the solar system. The planet was discovered using the Samuel Oschin Telescope at Palomar Observatory near San Diego, Calif. The discovery was announced today by planetary scientist Dr. Mike Brown of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., whose research is partly funded by NASA. The planet is a typical member of the Kuiper belt, but its sheer size in relation to the nine known planets means that it can only be classified as a planet, Brown said. Currently about 97 times further from the sun than the Earth, the planet is the farthest-known object in the solar system, and the third brightest of the Kuiper belt objects. "It will be visible with a telescope over the next six months and is currently almost directly overhead in the early-morning eastern sky, in the constellation Cetus," said Brown, who made the discovery with colleagues Chad Trujillo, of the Gemini Observatory in Mauna Kea, Hawaii, and David Rabinowitz, of Yale University, New Haven, Conn., on January 8. Brown, Trujillo and Rabinowitz first photographed the new planet with the 48-inch Samuel Oschin Telescope on October 31, 2003. However, the object was so far away that its motion was not detected until they reanalyzed the data in January of this year. In the last seven months, the scientists have been studying the planet to better estimate its size and its motions. "It's definitely bigger than Pluto," said Brown, who is a professor of planetary astronomy. Scientists can infer the size of a solar system object by its brightness, just as one can infer the size of a faraway light bulb if one knows its wattage. The reflectance of the planet is not yet known. Scientists can not yet tell how much light from the sun is reflected away, but the amount of light the planet reflects puts a lower limit on its size. "Even if it reflected 100 percent of the light reaching it, it would still be as big as Pluto," says Brown. "I'd say it's probably one and a half times the size of Pluto, but we're not sure yet of the final size. "We are 100 percent confident that this is the first object bigger than Pluto ever found in the outer solar system," Brown added. The size of the planet is limited by observations using NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope, which has already proved its mettle in studying the heat of dim, faint, faraway objects such as the Kuiper-belt bodies. Because Spitzer is unable to detect the new planet, the overall diameter must be less than 2,000 miles, said Brown. A name for the new planet has been proposed by the discoverers to the International Astronomical Union, and they are awaiting the decision of this body before announcing the name. For more information see: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown For information about NASA and agency programs on the Web, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/home/index -end- * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo.nul In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second automatic message will include additional information on the service.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:14:01 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:14:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch - Boone >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:58:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:00:50 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris at the Foster Ranch >>Nick excuse me if I missed the data, but did you cover the >>reports by Marcel and others of debris that was very strong >>and if so, where do you have it noted in your latest book? >Greg >No one (not even me!) disputes that Marcel made statements to >the effect that the material had unique and highly >unusual/anomalous properties. <snip> >What I'm trying to do, Greg, is get you to take a step back and >look at things in black-and-white from the perspective of an >outsider, uncontaminated by UFO history, etc. >And the fact is that we have a situation where we _do_have >conflicting statements to a degree on the nature of the debris. >And without consistency - even on the part of the people that >_saw_ the debris - we have a problem re precisely what the >debris was. Oh Nick, don't worry 'bout li'l ol' me losing his objectivity. My nicknames have been 'Spock' and 'The Machine' amongst my news and science colleagues. I was trained how to analyze and even tear anyone's testimony apart. I was just curious about that end of the story regarding the abilities and properties of some of the material. Also, didn't the good Rev. Dr. James Bond Johnson take pics of the debris at Gen. Ramey's office? If memory serves Johnson is still alive and wondered if you got his side of the story too. Nick, I applaud what you've done. That's what research is about, looking at things new and getting communication going.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Getting Busy In The Solar System! From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:18:11 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:25:23 -0400 Subject: Getting Busy In The Solar System! Wow! Talk about a day for planetary news! A brand new planet catalogued in our own solar system. A giant ice lake on Mars! Active water volcanism on Saturn's moon! History books being re-written faster than kids can flunk the tests in the old ones! If we now have officially ten planets it's better than even money that we'll find more. It would be scary if we find millions more. Stranger things have happened! Is science finally catching up to Ufology? Will the Feds finally put the Space Shuttle in mothballs and break out the 'real' spacecraft? Who knows, but so far this year science and Ufology have been getting more entertaining!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:21:13 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:29:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:09 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:01 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. ><snip> >>>Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it >>>and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the >>>President for National Security. >>>By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July >>>1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like >>>the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to >>>put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! >>EO 10483 establishing the OCB in 1953 certainly referred to the >>OCB as an "independent agency" but functionally it was part of >>the NSC created to coordinate efforts between different >>government agencies and military departments for a coordinated >>National Security policy which was why the NSC was created in >>1947. >The CIA was also an 'independent agency' created with the NSC in >the same law in 1947 (National Security Act) to "coordinate >efforts between different government agencies" for the NSC and >it directly reported to the NSC. Yet the CIA was never a part of >the NSC. CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's and >say "NSC Staff member"! Your 'revised' history of the CIA is wrong. Here is what the 1947 National Security Act says about the chief functions of the CIA: SEC. 102A.. [50 U.S.C. 403-1] There is a Central Intelligence Agency. The function of the Agency shall be to assist the Director of Central Intelligence in carrying out the responsibilities referred to in paragraphs (1) through (5) of section 103(d) of this Act. There is no mention of the CIA reporting to the NSC in the previous paragraphs which stipulate that the CIA was created to serve the Director of the Central Intelligence as the head of all the intelligence community comprising the intelligence services of the various military departments and government agencies. There was no statutory requirement for the CIA to report to the NSC. That is a fiction you have created to support your fallacious reasoning. In contrast, the Executive Orders that created both the Psychological Strategy Board (PSB) and its successor the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) both required these 'independent agencies' to report to the NSC, and to carry out NSC decisions. This is what the NSC website says about this chapter in its history: "The OCB was "Established as an independent agency by EO 10483, September 2, 1953, to report to the NSC on the development, by appropriate Executive branch agencies, of operational plans for national security policies of international import. Incorporated into the NSC, effective July 1, 1957, by EO 10700, February 25, 1957. Abolished by EO 10920, February 18, 1961." If one examines the composition of both the PSB and the OPB it is clear that both functionally were a part of the NSC even though the Executive Orders establishing them nominally made them independent agencies. Now an interesting question here is why were both the PSB and the OPB both housed in the State Department rather than the Executive Office since functionally both operated as NSC committees? I would say it was a result of a political tug of war where the State Department under Dean Acheson and later John Foster Dulles wanted to maximize their influence over both committees which were interagency committees discussing covert projects. What was the nature of the covert projects that the State Department wanted more influence over? Well the answer may come from one of the Majestic Documents where the First Annual Report of the Majestic Twelve Project states that "MAJ-Com-1 with assistance of the Panel [Majestic 12 Group] persuades the President to establish the Psychological Strategy Board on 4 April 1951" (Majestic Documents, ed. R & R. Woods, p. 114). So why would Majestic 12 recommend the creation of the PSB and have it housed in the State Department rather than the Old Executive Office building with other NSC committees? My guess is that MJ-12 was created as an independent agency as recommended by Truman's leaked memo of Sept 24, 1947 and an alleged Presidential Directive of 26 September that established the MJ-12 group according to the "First Annual Report". In order to maximize secrecy, MJ-12 was likely formally independent but functionally was at the apex of the NSC when it came to issues associated with UFOs and the ETH. My guess is that if we pursue the control and genesis of the PSB and the OCB we end up with a clearer picture of how MJ-12 was run and its links with the NSC. >This is double-talk and you know it! You've been caught cold, >dude! Admit it. Corso inflated his resume' with a non-existent >"NSC Staff" service when his military records prove he merely >served on the OCB. Fascinating that in pointing out the nuances between the OPB being functionally part of the NSC as opposed to the OPB being statutory part of the NSC you think I'm doing "double-talk". There is a not so subtle distinction here that is pretty elementary for any trying to assess the origins and independence of various government agencies. Being functionally part of the NSC means having reporting and implementing mechanisms that make an agency dependent on the NSC even if there is no statutory provision other than reporting to and carrying out NSC decisions. In terms of its composition, reporting and implementing mechanisms, the OPB was part of the NSC as the Executive Orders establishing it make clear. This was later formalized by EO 10700 which made the OCB a statutory part of the NSC. I hope you can grasp the nuances here. >>The references to the OCB NSC by Robert Cutler, the FBI >>file on Corso, the White House record on the NSC, etc., all >>point to the OCB being functionally a part of the NSC system >>from its inception. It's designation as 'independent' in the >>1953 EO was purely a political designation rather than a >>functional description of its function and mission. ><snip> >All that double-talk is belied by the fact that William H. >Jackson in 1956 had to conduct a study as to why the OCB was not >functioning effectively. The reason was simple: The OCB did not >have the authority of the NSC and the President behind it! The >OCB was not a part of the NSC so its suggestions for >"coordination" were ignored by the national security agencies >and departments. The concept of OCB getting "voluntary >cooperation" was not working because OCB had no NSC power to >enforce. It's a simple concept which any poli sci professor >should be able to grasp instantly. This merely proves my point that functionally it was clear that the OCB was part of the NSC and that's where it belonged rather than being housed in the Department of State. Jackson was on the record in 1954 for strengthening the OCB by statutes that would formally put it in the NSC. Jackson said: "I believe that OCB is an absolutely necessary agency, but I am not so certain that we should attempt to get any new legislation on the matter. On the other hand, I think it might be wise to ask the Attorney General to get us a favorable opinion on organizing the OCB as part of the National Security Council under existing law. If there is any space available in the Executive Offices of the President for stationing the OCB, I think it should be done." http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/index/..%5Cdocu ments%5C1095.cfm >Thus Jackson reported back to Eisenhower on Dec. 31, 1956, and >Jan. 3, 1957, that the OCB needed to have Presidential (or Vice- >Presidential) authority via the NSC to back up its orders, and >so the OCB needed to be "integrated" directly into the NSC >functionally. The OCB was not part of the NSC and thus had no >power or authority to enforce its orders. Once OCB was part of >the NSC it would be able to issue direct orders in the name of >the NSC. Eisenhower agreed and ordered OCB merged into the NSC >July 1, 1957, by his Executive Order 10700. >Do you get that? The President had to personally intervene to >make the OCB part of the NSC - long after Corso was long gone >from the OCB. Now this is where you again err. What do you think the OCB was doing prior to its formal incorporation into the NSC? It was reporting to and implementing NSC decisions, just the same as after it's statutory incorporation into the NSC. So functionally, there was no major change. Institutionally, there was a significant change since by moving into the Executive Office with the NSC, the State Department lost influence over the functions and activities of the OCB. Organizationally, the NSC could help bolster the influence of the OCB which was Jackson's point in his recommendations. >Later histories and FBI references from the 60's look back on an >OCB that ended its days as a part of the NSC from 1957- 1961. >But Corso was with the OCB only from 1954 to 1956, when OCB was >a "voluntary cooperation" type of paper-tiger agency that was >not a part of the NSC. He cannot claim to have been an "NSC >Staff" member. His claims were a lie pure and simple. He had no >more right to claim being an "NSC Staff" member than any CIA >employee or manager does just because the CIA coordinates for >the NSC and reports to the NSC. As I said earlier, despite the evidence that I and others have given you that it has been standard practice for members of the OCB and historical researchers to refer to the OCB as part of the NSC throughout its history from 1953 to 1961. You insist that only EO 10700 made it part of the NSC in 1957. We disagree here over functional incorporation versus statutory incorporation into the NSC. In simple terms, that's similar to the distinction between de facto versus de jure associations as represented in marriages, etc., where de facto associations are increasingly recognized as having similar legal rights to de jure associations. The OCB was a de facto part of the NSC between 1953-56 when Corso served, and a de jure part from 1957- 61. The fact that Col Corso and others refer to the OCB as being part of the NSC means that this was part of the political culture of the era in which Corso served. You are making a rigid argument for what was clearly a nuanced and flexible institutional arrangement that existed when Corso served on the OCB. At most, Corso may be accused of simply reflecting the political culture of his time when it was standard practice for those who served on the OCB to refer to it as part of the NSC. That would account for why the FBI report for example described him as serving on the OCB NSC. That is pretty far from Corso being a liar or intending to deceive and is independent support for Corso's contention that he served on the NSC. You dramatically overstate your case concering Col Corso's fidelity to his military record. Your zeal to discredit Corso clouds your historical scholarship since it is clear that working professionals and historians referred to the OCB as part of the NSC throughout its history. The FBI record clearly reflects the institutional and political culture of the time when it was clearly believed that the OCB was part of the NSC. All you have offered are a number of rigid arguments that is not supported by the historical record. I suggest that the FBI report that is a matter of the public record conclusively establishes that Corso served as a staff member of the OCB and that it was part of the NSC since that is what is clearly stated in the report. Corso's claim of being a staff member of the NSC is therefore supported by the available documentary evidence on the history of the OCB and its statutory relationship with the NSC. Once again, the evidence supports the conclusion that Corso was telling the truth and that any errors/inconsistencies do not diminish his credibility as a whistleblower concerning ET technologies disseminated into private industry through the FTD at the Army Research and Development later in his career.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Ice Lake Found On Mars From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:02:19 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:31:16 -0400 Subject: Ice Lake Found On Mars Ice Lake Found On The Red Planet A giant patch of frozen water has been photographed nestled with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:51:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:33:21 -0400 Subject: Re: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! - White >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:56:27 EDT >Subject: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! <snip> >What "crimes" by their employers did the purported UFO >"whistleblowers" such as Corso or Stone reveal? Witholding the full truth about UFOs from the public is one of the most heinous crimes of all time. Information about UFOs should never have to be "leaked" in the first place.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Latest UFO Sightings Histograms From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:00:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:35:38 -0400 Subject: Latest UFO Sightings Histograms Hello all: I have completely re-worked this statistical page of mine: http://www.larryhatch.net/YDAYUSA.html The original histogram is updated. That shows thin bars for each day of the year, but for the United States only. What is really new, is a second histogram, for the rest of the world, with the USA _excluded_, for comparison. There are notable differences. The July Spike (mostly from 1947 and 1952) is gone in the world graph. Activity shifts from Summer to Fall. If nothing else, the two graphs seem to refute the common armchair claim that 'most UFO sightings are in the USA'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:00:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:37:29 -0400 Subject: Re: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:56:27 EDT >Subject: They Are Leakers Not "Whistleblowers"! >A blatant misuse of terminology is being foisted on this List. <snip> >These so-called UFO "whistleblowers" are actually _Leakers_ >nothing more. Anymore? Three _cheers_ for some of these 'leakers'. You know, like Jesse Marcel... and others who have had their credibility dragged back and forth across the credulity line so hard and often that the line is impossible to resolve by the sincere truthseeker. A sad result of the duplicitous mainstream we continue, inexplicably, to honor and endure...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Alfred's Odd Ode #389 From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:26:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:40:25 -0400 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #389 Alfred's Odd Ode #389 -Six Levels- The sky reflects a lot of 'time' as measured, now, by us. The 'space' is... unimaginable, beyond all volume... plus! These are dwarfed by 'surfaces', places where we'd stand if we had imagination... were less facile; in command. The question's begged who's _there_ right now and peering back at Earth, or making plans to visit same... I suspect there is no dearth. Drake's equation says they 'are', and Fermi says they 'will', and evidence of UFOs denies denial, still. Drake's equation says they 'are', in figures that won't lie. The numbers are conclusive, mirrored thoughtfulness is why. To the angle of the dangle, add the square of Drake's potential, and quickly find, besides ourselves... the _extant_ and consequential! Yes, we have photographed them, we've raked their thousand traces, and some have looked upon them and beheld non-human faces... Fermi says they 'will', of course, if they are there to do so. If there, they have prerogatives that we won't guess or even know. We'd occupy our fantasy, a homocentric dream, that we alone inhabit space... our arrogance supreme. Our hubris, a bloated 'system' provoked by errant men who prosecute too passionately what only threatens _them_. These men are not concerned with 'truth', have abdicated 'trust', and shortchange those beneath them, then, with 'promises' of dust. Evidentiary ufology is enormous and well vetted, but men have lost home, love, and lives condemned to what's regretted. Photographic and physical it has passed time's acid test. History is _larded_ with accounts not made in jest. Artists have recorded what 'real people' heard and saw... and they wrote in ink on parchment or in soot on cave-house walls. I myself have seen such things as other pilots see... I'd look at them unflinchingly and not from bended knee. Six levels of preponderance... so wide and long and deep, it shocks the sensibilities of those not yet asleep. Six levels of near certainty foretell the patent truth; that we are not, have never been, _alone_ in all this, dude! Six levels of an evidence borne out in guts some had... to qualify existence and to keep from going mad... Six levels of reality that some of needs deny, and this is proof that these are fools... truth- seekers should decry. alienview.nul www.AlienView.net UFOs. Yes, the quality _anecdotal_ evidence, compounded with the vetted _photographic_ evidence, and then added to the documented _historical_ evidence, gives every indication that a ufological contention regarding that phenomena _must_ be more real than not... Moreover, when the preceding is framed by the serious _artistic_ evidence, qualified by the available _physical_ evidence, and then compellingly buttressed by any conclusively _personal_ evidence (if you have some... I do...), I can only be annoyingly astonished by the continued reluctance of _some_
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:52:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:48:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >Alfred, you know I love you, man. And I know where you're coming >from, but... if we're ever going to turn up any 'hard evidence' >then we need to apply every 'proven' method we know of to test, >probe, prod, document, record the phenomena in any way we can. >At the moment, the 'tool of choice' admittedly faulted and >limited as it is, is the scientific method. We all know it's far >from perfect, but if results which can be replicated can be >tickled out of the evidence we do have, then I say we go for it. >Unless you have a better means of accomplishing this up your >sleeve, established scientific investigation methods and >protocols is all we have. <snip> Hey John; In principle, we couldn't be more in agreement. My concern stems from finding out the principal's 'penis' is involved and that the penis in question has a 'foreskin' manipulated by drop-dead gorgeous alien of enigmatic determinacy... the distraction that the salaciousness unfortunately entails... or how this is different (outside of physical evidence allegedly left behind) from lounge singers laying down with alien lizards of some years ago... none of us looked very hard for trace evidence on her. My suspicion is that 'some' would key on a case like this (legitimate or not), perhaps make it more important than it should be (?), but be ready to pounce with the same kind of criticism that I am suggesting here so as to discredit all of ufology on the strength of one dodgy case. In Up-Tight & Sex Shy America, those whom the gods would destroy they first make reference to their genitals? Consider: It seems to me that perhaps all the work should have been done on this _before_ there were... jeez... dozens of web pages devoted to it, is all. No disrespect to persons trying to follow the data in a service to real science is remotely suggested... nor is there any suggested for the persons closely involved with this case. It just seems to me that this is not the best trace case to hang a hat (or a towel) on... _even_ given that a report comes back that the hank of hair is "not of this Earth", which, in our twisted sexual sensibilities, would make the report even _more_ discreditable. That finding would be appealed, and the appeal appealed, until it joined the ranks of all the other 'inconclusives' and was forgotten... whatever is found out... whatever the truth was. A "Manhattan Project", is needed and is not forthcoming when we continue to respect the sensibilities of a 'mainstream' that does not respect our sensibilities in turn. And it does not. If it did? Richard Hall, and yourself to a degree, would be carried around on three-cornered velvet cushions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Jul > Jul 30 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:59:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:52:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch >From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:02:19 +0200 > Subject: Ice Lake Found On The Red Planet >Ice Lake Found On The Red Planet >A giant patch of frozen water has been photographed nestled >with an unnamed impact crater on Mars. >Full story: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4727847.stm - - - - Good catch Diana!! Remember the US astronaut who wanted to drive a golf ball on the moon? Maybe his grandson will want to go ice skating on Mars. I'd like to see that! Water on (or mostly in) Mars is becoming old news. Enough ice to skate on, in plain view on the surface is new news. I see somebody went to the trouble to disallow CO2 (dry) ice. I also see an odd bias here. For decades, nobody seemed to question dry (CO2) ice on Mars, while regular water ice was snickered and shat upon. Why should this be so? Water ice is much more common on Earth, and elsewhere in the solar system. Comets are thought to be largely if not mostly water ice. Why was water ice, and (much worse) liquid water so, er, taboo on Mars for so long? I can think of only one reason... it suggests the possibility of life, more or less as we know it. That must be the big sin, something to be avoided at all costs until the evidence is compelling. _If_ this all pans out, now they can all go skate on it. Somebody, not just a few, will need to find other reasons why life, even if its only bacteria, is impossible on Mars. I think this very same prejudice is one of the main stumbling blocks preventing a truly scientific study of UFOs, one well funded and supported by mainstream science, rather than the mixed bag of people we have here for example. Yes, the 'mixed bag' is another stumbling block in itself, but that's totally beside the point. A perception that we are the highest form of intelligence in the universe seems to invisibly pervade science. Nobody will admit that in so many words of course, but its as if it were some religion they all subscribe to secretly. Computers are now routinely defeating our finest chess masters... silicon machines of our own design! And still this mind-set persists. So what exactly is this bias? Whatever it is, it isn't science.